In this pretty fantastic episode penned by Andrew Dabb, we open with a musical montage covering the first half of the season.
The episode begins with a Christmas scene where Crowley is opening gifts in a onesies. He opens up a bobblehead Sam and Rowena is exasperated, saying good for you, dearie. A knock on the door reveals Santa, who takes out a stake and kills Crowley, who claims he was a good boy. We find out it is a dream and she reveals she’s been having the dream for months. Santa reveals himself to be Lucifer.

We come back to the cage where Sam realizes that Lucifer is giving him the visions and Rowena was helping. Sam says he’ll still say no after the torture and soon Dean will rescue him and kick Lucifer’s ass. Lucifer mocks him for betting on Dean. He says he’ll offer Sam a deal he can’t refuse. Lucifer takes Sam to childhood memories. Crowley and Rowena are fighting. Crowley realizes she helped Lucifer. She explains Lucifer’s visitation. Crowley taunts Rowena for working with Lucifer and she thinks she’ll be his consort in Heaven because he will fight the Darkness and win.

Dean is driving. We see him trying to call Sam and we hear his funny message that he left as Sam’s message. He gets dizzy and then pulls over to throw up. Castiel shows up and explains that Dean is suffering from smiting sickness. Castiel will go and check alone. Dean says he’ll go check on Sam. Dean tells Cas to bring Amara’s body out if she is dead. If she’s not, then Cas should run.

Back in Sam’s memory, Lucifer and Sam are watching younger Sam with a young girl. Colin Ford guest stars as Sam’s younger self. Lucifer bemoans Sam’s lack of heroicness. Dean gets to the bunker to find Sam gone. He yells for Sam and Crowley calls to tell him that Sam is in hell with Lucifer.

Lucifer brings Sam to Stull Cemetery. Lucifer tells Sam he respects him, and that Sam had balls. They play Swan Song clips. We find Castiel in a dark wood and he runs into a female angel who works in birth/death statistics. She is there to make sure that the Darkness is dead. She offers to work together so Castiel won’t kill her. He notes that the middle of the afternoon is dark.

Dean calls Castiel to help him since he’s going to hell. He goes to a warehouse and Billie, the reaper, explains she’s helping Crowley to get him there.

Back in childhood memory land, Lucifer takes us to Sam and Amelia and then lists all the horrible things that the boys do for each other. We switch to Castiel and the stats angel for a brief scene before going back to Dean and Crowley. Before a commercial break we see that the little stats angel is in danger. Don’t die, Stats Angel.

Amara confronts Cas after drinking up Stats Angel. She taunts him as a chosen one of her brother then sends him to Nebraska, and Billie, the reaper. Back in hell, Crowley, Dean, and Rowena meet. Crowley has poisoned Rowena and Dean captures Rowena in a neck brace. It makes her Crowley’s slave. She makes a very inappropriate Fifty Shades reference before being ushered away to the cage.

Back in the cage, Sam and Lucifer are talking again. Lucifer is chronicling everyone who is gone and Lucifer presents himself as the only thing to beat the Darkness. Castiel shows up and has a message on his chest from Amara, “I am Coming.” Lucifer and Sam are arguing again about Sam saying yes. Sam says he’ll have faith in his friends and family. Lucifer starts beating Sam and Dean hears it so he runs out, as does Castiel. They both run toward the cage and Lucifer snaps them inside.

Lucifer and Cas fight and Lucifer says Castiel knows he can win against the Darkness. The boys fight Lucifer and Dean gets caught. Lucifer threatens to kill Dean but Castiel jumps up to fight. Dean and Sam are injured while Lucifer beats up Castiel. When he is about to kill him, Rowena’s spell seems to transport Lucifer out of the cage.

The five of them meet outside the cage. Crowley throws them out of hell, except Rowena. Sam wonders if Lucifer was right but Dean dismisses it, saying that the Darkness is bad but Lucifer and the Darkness? Worse. Back in hell, Rowena is massaging Crowley’s temples, as his slave. He asks why she hates him and the most poignant scene on this show in a very long time, Ruth Connell gives Rowena the  most beautiful emotional portrayal as she tells Crowley the story of his bastard birth and her abandonment by the man she loved and then says that she hates him because if not then she’d love him and love is weakness.

Castiel shows up and then we realize that Castiel is Lucifer. Castiel said yes as his last words because Lucifer claimed to be able to beat the Darkness. He releases Rowena from her chain and throws Crowley across the room. Lustiel (see what I did there) flirts with Rowena and asks if anyone else can get into the cage. She says no, just her. Lustiel then snaps her neck! Rowena diesssssss!!!! AND LINDA CRIESSSSSSSSS!!!!!

Questions, Specs, Feelings

1. Put your Rowena feelings below. I can’t even right now.

2. What do you think happened to Castiel? Is he in there or somewhere else?

3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all.

4. Do you think Lucifer is gonna let Sam off the hook that easy?

5. What will Crowley do now?

6. SERIOUSLY, WHY ROWENA????? I'm having issues right now. 

Leave your stuff below. *sends you tissue*

 

 

Comments  

njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-20 22:54
What a difference a good writer makes. Episode was great till the surprise ending which was kind of predictable. The Sam/Lucifer stroll down memory lane was well done, great job by Jared and Mark. And I did agree with some of the things Lucifer said; Sam should have followed through and closed the gates at the end of S8. Nice to see Colin Ford back and I bet nobody thought they'd ever seen Amelia on the show again, even in a flashback. And that whole Sam hit an f'ing dog; Carver really screwed up big time; will never forgive him for that one.

Keep saying this and must sound like a broken record but CANON MATTERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!! How can Lucifer possess an empty vessel already possessed by another angel? If that were possible, why didn't Lucifer just kill Sam, wait for his soul to be reaped (or tossed in to the big empty by Billie, my new favorite reaper), possess his empty vessel and then reanimate him? Not sure if I can buy Misha playing Lucifer but we'll see. I guess they had to figure out something interesting to do with Castiel.

It does look as though Amara was knocked for a loop by the angel smiting.

1. Put your Rowena feelings below. I can’t even right now.

This was one of her better episodes but, in all honestly the writing had been all over the place with her; some of the writers did a good job with her, others made her out to be campy and intolerable.

2. What do you think happened to Castiel? Is he in there or somewhere else?
Angels can't possess empty vessels already possessed by other angels so everyone can make up their own answer to this.

3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all.
I will miss her.

4. Do you think Lucifer is gonna let Sam off the hook that easy?
Hells no.

5. What will Crowley do now?
Crowley be screwed; he'll figure out a way to survive.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 07:26
Quote:
Angels can't possess empty vessels already possessed by other angels so everyone can make up their own answer to this.
njspnfan, the angel possession issue has become a bit muddled. But in Road Trip Cas indicated that he COULD have possessed Sam at the same time that Gadreel was possessing him, but that Sam would have to consent. And as myersjennifer points out below, Hael intended to possess Cas's meatsuit simultaneously with him, although what was Cas at that time? A human/angel hybrid?

But you're right that the ability of an angel to possess an empty vessel implies that they can kill off anyone they want and then possess the meatsuit. Maybe the difference is that Cas DID have permission to possess Jimmy, and that permission was never rescinded before Jimmy was killed. So if the original possession occurred with the OK of the live human host, it could continue even after the person was killed. Cas has always been a special case anyway in terms of his meatsuit. Even Amara referred to the special interest God had taken in him. In contrast, Lucifer never had Jimmy's permission to possess him, so therefore could not enter his meatsuit without Cas's permission. I'm sure there are holes in my theory, but it's a work in progress.:)
Grace232
# Grace232 2016-01-20 23:01
That was such an amazing episode! Not a minute wasted! Loved it! Am I gushingly! Heck, yeah!

1 - I never particularly liked Rowena, so did not care that she died. And she totally deserved it for helping the devil. But - it means they lose her ability to open the box again, so losing that weapon in their arsenal. That being said, I doubt any of the characters will be sorry she is dead. I liked the actress, though.

2 - I think Cas and Lucifer are now sharing Jimmy's vessel, so he is in there, overpowered like Sam was in Swan Song. Such a fun twist - that I totally did not see coming, even with all the grinding promo clues! I bet Misha is really psyched to get to play Lucifer too!

3 - yeah, expendable angel.

4 - Lucifer wanted out. He is out. Let's see if Castiel's vessel can hold him. If not, he will come sniffing around Sam again. Wonder what he wants to do first? Takeover of heaven? Have fun on earth? Kill Crowley? Try to partner with Amara? Attack Amara? So interesting!

5 - it is always about the long game with Crowley. I think he is going to play all the angles and take stock before he decides on pursuing alliances.

Can I just say - some of the best dialogue in this episode. Laugh out loud funny! All sorts of sentimental with the trip down memory lane! Colin Ford, Billie back. Constant action. Have I mentioned I loved it? This season totally rocks!
myersjennifer
# myersjennifer 2016-01-20 23:36
I'm also curious about the idea of two angels inhabiting the same vessel but in the episode I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here Hael told Cass she planned to merge with him as he had a stronger vessel. That they'd always be together. I know Cass was basically human without his grace but he could still hear angel radio. Just a thought.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-20 23:38
OK, I enjoyed my dinner of crow. It tasted like shit but it was worth it because I loved the ep! There was a lot to absorb and process and I need to watch it again, but I was thrilled that they seem to have deliberately left out of all of the previews the fact that much of the ep revolved around Sam and Lucifer, and it was awesome- mostly.:) I was not happy that it seemed to be confirmed that the only reason Sam didn't look for Dean in S8 was because of the "agreement" (which had never previously been mentioned on the show!). But I was amazed at the terrific amount of continuity in this ep, and the confirmation that Sam's guilt over that did indeed drive all of the events at the end of S8, as well as his actions in S10. Funny that this was a topic of much debate here at WFB just a few days ago. I loved Lucifer's reference to Sam and Dean's need to put each other above all else, and the fact that Sam's actions in this ep further evidence his commitment to do things differently in that respect, and to try to save all of the people, not just each other. Yay Dabb and Carver!

I was thrilled when Lucifer admitted that he respected the ballsy, strong Sam who put him in the cage. That makes two beings who have flat out admired Sam for saving the world- Death and Lucifer. But I also laughed when he said Sam was prissy. Man, do I love Mark P. As far as the whole cage plot, I'm still not clear on what was IN the cage. How could Lucifer have recreated Nick's meatsuit? But clearly the show has decided to gloss over those details, as well as the details about how Lucy even knew to reach out to Rowena in the first place. Maybe he could reach out to people through the fissures, but how would he even know about Rowena? I actually thought Rowena was great in this ep, and was somewhat sorry to see her go. as soon as Lucy/Cas reappeared in hell I knew she was done for. Ruth actually milked Rowena for all she was worth here and I enjoyed her performance quite a bit. But I think I was kind of ready to be done with Rowena especially since Lucy is now back in play.
About Cas/Lucy...I was dead set against that when I first read the speculation, and Misha has an uphill battle to measure up to Mark P and Jared's performances as Lucy. There wasn't enough of him in this ep to really judge, but I thought Misha was giving him a kind of Leviathan vibe that I wasn't wild about. But I'm willing to see how it goes in the next few eps. I'm still not sure why Cas would agree to this deal so rashly. Sam was awesome when detailing all of the compelling reasons why Lucy should never again be allowed to walk the earth- that was a fantastic scene for Sam and for Jared- but I guess we're supposed to believe that Cas made this decision because that other angel (whom I found quite annoying) and Amara both accused him of being an expendable, essentially worthless appendage to the Winchesters. But to allow himself to be possessed by Lucy for that reason pretty much vindicates what they said about Cas. He must know he can't control Lucy (and I'll be pissed if he is able to pull a Sam and overpower Lucy- really pissed). But I'm interested in seeing where they go with this plot. I have lots of questions about it, such as how can Lucy suddenly be in any old meatsuit, rather than only those of a particular lineage? And more importantly, why did Lucy conceal this from Sam and Dean? I could see him wanting to keep Sam around as a backup vessel, but you'd think he would have snuffed Dean then and there. And does Lucy truly want to defeat the D? Lots of food for thought.

About Amara, I really liked that when she was lying there seemingly lifeless the darkness fully enveloped the area. She actually finally seems more otherworldly and menacing. A Lucifer /Amara showdown could be amazing, but at this point I'd prefer that it be Mark P. as Lucy. Did I mention how fantastic he is? I also was happy to see Billie again, but I didn't really like the notion that she herself seems to be somewhat of a rogue reaper in that she apparently moonlights for Crowley. I keep wondering if there is more going on with her, and if she really was trying to help Sam and Dean, rather than acting on Crowley's behalf. There's got to be more going on there than they've let on.
So they've set some interesting plot threads in motion, and I can honestly say I haven't the foggiest idea as to where this is going and how they are going to deal with Amara. I still have some reservations about how Sam's story will evolve, because it's not clear that he even HAS a particular story going forward, but this ep gives me hope that someone on that writing staff is determined that Sam be actively and essentially involved in the plot. I love Dabb for having given us yet more Sam POV this season. It never gets old!
Jen
# Jen 2016-01-21 05:32
Samdean No Bro hug you didn't mention your disappoitment. :o:(:(:(:( We did get a nice sholder hug in the cage
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 06:53
Jen, the so-called "shoulder hug" (nice job coining that term!) is a completely unacceptable replacement for the hug that I am waiting for: a fully reciprocal, tight hug that lasts a minimum of 7 seconds. What the hell is Carver waiting for? Did he use up his full quota of bro hugs in S8? :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-21 17:00
I love it that you have such specific requirements for the next hug. So a 6 second hug won't suffice?:D I agree with your post below also. I like those little moments.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 19:45
Maybe I would accept a 6.5 second hug. I'm feeling generous because of all the good will created by the ep. But I'm afraid I can't go any lower than that!:)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 21:49
We are truly bereft!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 07:03
Also Jen. It in no way compensated for the lack of a hug, but I loved it when Crowley said something to Dean like "don't worry about Sam" and Dean said "have you met me." At least I think that's how he phrased it. It was a throwaway line but it was wonderfully heartwarming. Dean rushing to the cage when he heard Lucy starting to beat Sam was also pretty great.
vince
# vince 2016-01-21 06:49
Well, Sam did make Dean promise not to look for a way to bring him back from the Cage.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 07:35
True, but we actually saw that conversation, and it seemed like a pretty specific issue given the potentially catastrophic consequences of trying to free Sam. I will always hate that Carver wrote Sam that way simply so he could have Sam end up drowning in guilt and therefore setting in motion everything that followed in S8-10. Because it was clearly spelled out last night that that WAS the intention behind the way Sam was written at the start of S8. It's like a peek behind the writers' curtain. But at least now the pendulum has swung back and we have a Sam acting like SAM. How did you like the ep Vince?
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-21 01:22
Well I suppose they were determind to give Castiel a story. So here is Lucifer the one Sam sacrificed himself for to put back in the cage but there you go.
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-21 01:28
Thanks Bookdal it was a pretty fantastic episode. I am going to pass on trying to untangle the canon of vessels and reapers it is just so confusing to me. I really was surprised they killed Rowena I didn't see it coming until the last few minutes. I actually was thinking to myself the whole episode that she was kind of great in this one. But I wasn't overly traumatized. Although I feel bad for Ruthie, I do love her and I know she loved doing the show. But again is she really dead? This darn show. Jared/Sam was great! I loved his scenes with Mark/Lucifer. They are so awesome together. Didn't care a whit about the accountant angel we knew her for 6 seconds. Not sure how I am going to like Casifer. Misha might be over playing it a bit but we'll see. I always suspected and posted that I thought Rowena was in league with Lucifer because of her complete lack of surprise when the warding failed and her flirtatious interaction with him. Just a few other random and off the top of my head thoughts. When that music started playing in the cage I half expected Lucifer to turn into the Trickster. I was going to comment on how well the show did to find another actor who looked and acted like Colin who is such a great young Sam. I didn't realize that WAS him. Good job show of keeping that under wraps. Unless I am the last to find out.:) Dean/Jensen was great as well. So was Mark S. The episode belonged to Sam and Lucifer though. The promo for next episode looks good and actually kind of creepy.
Didi
# Didi 2016-01-21 02:04
Good writing is everything! I live in San Francisco, so it comes on live here after everyone on the east coast has seen it. I'll admit I cheated and read the review and comments before watching the ep. Hellatus has been hard on me and turned me into a scavenger for SPN details. Don't judge me :)

A thought that occurred to me since Cas is now Luci's meatsuit - isn't Cas the only one who knows where the First Blade is buried? I wonder if that will come into play?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 07:57
Ooh, I like that thought Didi! But it will be disappointing if the first blade can kill Amara. That would seem to indicate that it could kill God. But it could be used to kill Lucifer I bet.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-21 15:23
The one weapon none of the baddies know about to date of yet is the Spear of Destiny. One of these days that thing is going to have to come into play!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 16:07
Maybe you should tweet Jim Michaels and remind him there is God's biggest toothpick still to be put in play.;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 16:50
OK. having another senior moment. :(What is the spear of destiny again?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-21 17:11
That was something Dean was cataloging in the bunker during S8, at the same time he cataloged what we found out later was the key to Oz, then saw Sam's bloody napkin in the garbage can and called him out on it in front of Castiel and Meg.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 19:01
Goodbye Stranger.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 19:49
Thanks Cheryl and njspnfan. That's what Dean was playing with and kind of pricked his finger on because it was so sharp, right? Or was than a different item that he was cataloging...
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-21 22:09
No, it was the item Dean picked up in its box and called it "Gods Little Toothpick." The Spear of Destiny is supposed to be the spear that the Roman soldier used to pierce Christ side while he was still on the cross. Holy relic. The other items he looked at were a weird piece of what looked like sculptured wood(which they discovered later was to Oz) and some little container which he opened up and sniffed.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2016-01-21 02:08
Great episode! I couldn't believe my eyes in a good way the whole 45 minutes. :)

Questions, Specs, Feelings

1. Put your Rowena feelings below. I can’t even right now.

I knew she was toast immediately when Casifer asked that question. But I do love that finally she had been as wicked as she should have been. She planned this all along and it was her doing. I am actually sorry to see her go. (If she is actually dead)

2. What do you think happened to Castiel? Is he in there or somewhere else?
I think he is there and I was expecting this. I was actually surprised that he needed permission as Cas is not human anymore. He has been blown up in sub-atomic level and resurrected by God few times. Have been Godstiel and then human when he stole and was given the graces of other angels. Cas and Jimmy Novak was separated so this is not Novak's vessel anymore. It is Cas only and like humans he can be a vessel. In other words, Cas is a special case (only way to describe why this was possible) and might be able to not explode because of Lucy. Cas is stronger than a human vessel because he is supernatural being hense no demon blood nor his blood type doesn't matter. Anyway, that is how I see it. And I hope he will fight to get loose with a little help with his friends. :)

3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all.
I think same actress was in Fan Fiction or am I mistaken? Anyway, unfortunately she was thinking like a normal angel and they annoy me. Otherwise she was okay. ;)

4. Do you think Lucifer is gonna let Sam off the hook that easy?
No way. Not Sam, not Dean. He is planning something I am sure of it.

5. What will Crowley do now?
Well, be sneaky and survive of course. I think he will get out of dodge (hell).

6. SERIOUSLY, WHY ROWENA????? I'm having issues right now.
I know. Love the actress and I am feeling bummed now. :(

Also, can I marry Billie? Although, hubby wouldn't approve. I am glad she was used as reapers deliver souls to heaven and hell. I am just glad she is back. Love it.

Oh, and what Leah said! I don't care what Lucifer said. Gabriel is not dead! Period. ;)

- Lilah
Russ
# Russ 2016-01-21 03:38
Quote:
3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all.
I think same actress was in Fan Fiction or am I mistaken?
Different actress*.

*Que politically-cor rect Social-Justice- Warrior demanding an apology for implying all short Asiatic women look the same.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2016-01-21 03:59
:D

- Lilah
Russ
# Russ 2016-01-21 04:01
1. Put your Rowena feelings below. I can’t even right now.




2. What do you think happened to Castiel? Is he in there or somewhere else?

Hope he's in there somewhere. Dude was feeling pretty down. Could be a good redemption arc for him. Also hope Misha dials the acting down a bit.


3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all.

Not so much.


4. Do you think Lucifer is gonna let Sam off the hook that easy?

I'd like to think Lucifer gets taken to town by Amara. It'd be pretty cool if, despite his bravado, we find him eventually skulking back to the Winchesters for help after realising he's bitten off more than he can chew.


5. What will Crowley do now?

No idea. Just hope it's dark, evil, twisted. Just hope he doesn't try and hatch a "enemy of an enemy is a friend" plan with Amara. I'd really like to see Crowley go his own route and get revenge his way without his cliched makeshift alliances. Season 11 could really do with some original, thoughtful, Crowley. Let him outside the box without getting ridiculous.

6. SERIOUSLY, WHY ROWENA????? I'm having issues right now.

As odd as it is, this was the episode I liked her. Really, really liked her. She was direct, without hamming it up. We even got to see the real Rowena behind the facade. They should have introduced that collar-thing sooner. Having said that, the second Rowena stepped to Lucifer with "my liege", I knew she was done for. I wish I had recorded my reaction. I went from "ooh, hang on, this is going to happen" to "kill her", to "Do it!, DO IT! FUCKING DO IT!!!!!". LOL. That was a satisfying moment.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 07:10
Quote:
I went from "ooh, hang on, this is going to happen" to "kill her", to "Do it!, DO IT! FUCKING DO IT!!!!!". LOL. That was a satisfying moment
Hah, good one. the funny thing is, I actually often liked Rowena, and I thought the character and the actress were great in this ep, but my feelings went pretty much the same as yours. It was an epic kill, and it reminded me of why the show kind of needs to keep killing people off. It gets stale and unrealistic if recurring characters aren't brutally killed on a semi-regular basis. And then there is a really nice jolt when it actually happens.
I agree with you about Misha. I wasn't thrilled with his performance as Lucy, and it could end up being a terrible plot line if he can't do justice to the character.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2016-01-21 11:29
Quote:
It was an epic kill, and it reminded me of why the show kind of needs to keep killing people off. It gets stale and unrealistic if recurring characters aren't brutally killed on a semi-regular basis. And then there is a really nice jolt when it actually happens.
THIS! Exactly what I think and feel! I especially agree on the brutally killed bit ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 19:51
I think you and I would both benefit from a few sessions on the therapist's couch!;)
Jen
# Jen 2016-01-21 05:47
FANTASTIC What a way to put a show together absolutly brilliant writer. :):):) I love the way they close off a few loose ends, but open a whole new story soooo clever.
This was Sam's chance to tidy up some things from episodes past, although the S8 -- hit a dog met a women forgot about Dean didn't sit well with me It went far deeper than that. but I guess we can't dedicate to much time to that, we know the truth so thats all thats important. This was the best ever for Rowenna again I feel they stuffed up what could have been a good on-going villian. They needed a resolution to the mark of cain, so they introduced Rowenna, she served her purpose so now we need to kill her off. They could off done more with the character tonights episode proofed that.
Castiel/Lucifer, I'm not sure Misha can carry it off - The snippets we got tonight ??? mmmmmm not sure a cross between a Leviathan and a maniac god. Goodluck Misha big shoes to fill.
Anyway Jarred blew it out of the park tonight, The Boys Great actors. I'm so glad they stayed with SPN but I wonder were they could have taken their talent.
THANK YOU J & J for giving us your gift
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-21 06:31
I think this episode settled the question about Gabriel; according to Lucifer, both Gabriel and Raphael are dead and Michael is a drooling mess in the cage :):)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 07:53
...
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-01-21 07:56
I'm not sure about Gabriel. Since Lucifer was the one to kill Gabriel, then if it was a trick, Gabriel had to convince him that he was dead. I think Gabe is dead, mind you, but it you faked your death so that your murderer wouldn't try again then pretending to stay dead makes sense.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-21 17:13
Yes, but didn't Lucifer know that he didn't kill the real Gabriel in the first place, then killed him when he tried to sneak up on Lucifer? I just can't see any reason for Lucifer to lie about this, or for it to not be true. But, then again, they keep changing shit all the time so who knows.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-21 20:54
Quote:
Michael is a drooling mess in the cage
I am having difficulty with this bit of info. Either Lucifer was lying to get Sam to think he was the only game in town to stop the Darkness; AND he may be because although he claims to never lie, he is the ultimate manipulator and attempted to do a fine job on Sam by taking him down memory lane; OR the writers are re-writing because Michael the Archangel is the toughest son of bitch heaven had (quoting Bobby) and Michael was the one who put Lucifer in the cage the first time around. Sooo, not realistic that Michael would be a blathering idiot in the cage sitting in a corner singing show tunes while playing with himself (ggod line though). Not sure where the hell (no pun intended) Michael is or what he is doing. maybe only Lucifer could reach people and witches through the cracks because the Darkness is really evil.... otherwise Michael could do the same. I truly hope we get more than the devil from the cage. Looking for Michael but he will have to have a new meat suit because Matt Cohen is playing Dr. Sexy on GH.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 07:54
I've been thinking about the angel possessing another angel canon and the idea that this has taken away Sam's sacrifice in SS. Hael was going to do the same thing to Cas in S9. Cas did say that he was still an angel (just like Anna was) just without his grace (after all he wasn't Jimmy). He was mortal. There is no canon or history on the show that expressly forbids two angels possessing one vessel. Jimmy was not inhabiting his body any more and we know from Swap Meat (Sam's body was basically an empty vessel being occupied by Gary) that Lucifer could have taken over Sam's body if Gary had said yes. So we know that no matter who is inhabiting the vessel they can hand if over if the original inhabitant is gone. Does that make sense?
So now on to Sam's sacrifice in Swan Song. I've seen comments that Lucifer taking over Castiel negates that whole story. I am not so sure. Cas is a unique angel on SPN. Maybe I don't remember all the angels but how many are possessing vessels where the host is gone? It might not be so easy to take possession of another angel. In almost every case the human host has to give consent. Jimmy is gone so only Cas can now. And maybe possessing an angel won't be as easy as Lucifer thinks. Cas may be stronger (when he comes to his senses) than Lucifer can handle.
Yes I am sure that a lesser angel could have persuaded their human host into letting Lucifer in (and I would think that that angel would have been smited by Michael anyway just like Anna was for meddling in the whole destiny thing) but Lucifer needed a vessel strong enough to carry him into eternity. Lucifer never intended on letting Sam go. I would assume that means Sam may still be his ultimate target. A lesser vessel, angel possessed or not would have been a temporary solution.

So now what does that mean for Cas? It seems that he is still on his misguided mission to make up for all the damage he did in heaven. Maybe a Gadreel type arch for him? Some huge sacrifice to save heaven and ice the devil forever? I don't know but just on a personal note Misha didn't make a very good Lucifer. I hope his portrayal gets better.
I was kind of hoping for a redemption story for Lucifer. He really got screwed in the Mark deal. God kind of owes him one.

I'm sure there are a million holes in my theories but it's like 3 am and I was thinking (not sleeping).
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 19:59
Cheryl, I also proposed a similar theory about how Luci could possess Cas, but I actually think the show might clarify this when the brothers discover that Cas is possessed. Because their first question should be "how is this possible?" and then they will research it and it will all be spelled out in great detail with proper attention to canon.:D Ok, maybe that will not be the case, but I do think the show will at least give some explanation, however superficial. Because this is a much more significant issue than whether reapers can go rogue and appear to humans. An awful lot of the mythology of the show has hinged on the concept of angel possession.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 22:16
I think I'm going with my new favorite theory. Cas is in the cage still. Rowena's spell expelled Cas/his grace whatever from his vessel and now Lucifer has it for his own. That was why Lucifer asked Rowena if she was the only one who could unlock the cage. That was why he killed her so that Cas could never escape. My question is is it the cage or The Cage. Stat Angel, Amara and Billie seemed to be in with the plan for Lucifer to take Cas' vessel as well.
I don't have a problem with Cas saying yes to Lucifer possessing him. I do understand that it is problematic as far as the whole brother destiny/apocaly pse/sacrifice story but I do think more will be made clear as the season progresses.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 22:35
Quote:
I don't have a problem with Cas saying yes to Lucifer possessing him.


Part of my problem with it is the sheer stupidity and impulsiveness of it. But if Amara somehow induced or compelled him to do it that would be a horse of a different color. And it seemed odd that she would spare him just to be a mere messenger boy. So I could buy her involvement. But why do you think stat angel was involved?

Also maybe Cas is still in the cage, but I thought Luci asked Rowena who else could open it to ensure that Michael remains trapped, because then after Dispatching Amara, Luci would have the whole world his disposal without having to fight Michael and go through that tedious apocalypse.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-21 21:06
It seems that he [Castiel] is still on his misguided mission to make up for all the damage he did in heaven. Maybe a Gadreel type arch for him? Some huge sacrifice to save heaven and ice the devil forever? Yes, I agree that is where the writers are going but it leads to death. I thought Castiel actually learned something and atoned in Purgatory but alas he is once again gone down the wrong path.
Quote:
I was kind of hoping for a redemption story for Lucifer. He really got screwed in the Mark deal. God kind of owes him one.
What part about him being the devil equates into a redemption story. Does he seems like he wants to be redeemed in the eyes of God? Why does God owe him one?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 22:09
God entrusted (or as it turned out burdened) Lucifer his most valued lieutenant with the Mark. The Mark corrupted Lucifer and drove him insane. God banished Lucifer to the cage to ensure that he didn't destroy his creation (which is what Amara is doing). God owes Lucifer a redemption arc.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-21 22:32
Thank you, I am always interested in others thoughts. A philosophical argument: "sympathy for the devil".
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 07:36
In support of Cheryl's position, Kripke said long ago in an interview that he thought Luci's punishment of being cast into hell for his refusal to bow down to humans did NOT fit the crime. Not that Kripke did anything else to make Luci seem like a sympathetic figure.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-22 19:50
Kripke may have bought into the sympathy for the devil act but Dean did not and neither did Sam.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-22 09:00
No, you are correct in that there is no canon that specifically says it can't happen but, as I thought it through, it didn't make much sense. They made an awfully big deal about Sam and Dean being the chosen vessels for Lucifer and Michael at the end of S4/start of S5, that it was a bloodline thing going all the way back to Cain and Abel. And, when Lucifer used Nick as a vessel, you saw his vessel deteriorating over the course of Season 5. And, when Dean refused to say yes to Michael, they ended resurrecting Adam for Michael to use as a vessel. And, since Castiel is occupying an empty vessel (Jimmy's soul is in heaven), why couldn't Lucifer just kill Sam, wait for his soul to be reaped, then resurrect and possess him? To me it was just sloppy and they should have given it more thought.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-22 11:02
I agree that it does make the apocalypse story problematic but it depends on what Lucifer intends to do. Originally in S1-5 I think he never intended on leaving earth. He meant to stay in Sam for eternity and rule over earth and hell or be killed by Michael. Dean was just going to be a drooling mess (at least according to Cas) or dead after the big fight since Michaels intention was to return victorious to heaven. Both Michael and Lucifer needed vessels strong enough (but supposedly weak minded-Sam and on a holy mission-Dean) to withstand the possession and the fight. Since we don't know what Lucifer plans to do (I think he and Amara hatched this plan myself) we don't know how possessing Cas is going to work. Both Lucifer and Michael possessed other humans. Lucifer was in Nick for months and he wore him out. Adam and John were possessed very briefly. So far we don't know how well Cas' meatsuit is going to hold up.
And since God was trying to teach his "sons" a lesson that he hoped they would learn from Sam and Dean I don't think that God would have allowed either of the brothers to be killed and resurrected then possessed or whatever. I just think we need more information and so far this season we have been getting slammed with dialog and answers to plot points. We are only half way....
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 07:55
I thought the episode was pretty good. I wasn't wowed...it had some pacing problems particularly in the front half. I'm not sure why these multi-arc episodic episodes can work so well in some instances (Form and Void) and seems a bit clunky in other instances. This was by no means a bad episode, and I really feel like I need to watch it again. The Sam/Lucifer stuff was far and away the most interesting part of the episode and I wished it had been longer and more involved. It was wonderful to see Colin Ford again.... and so lovely that he would take time out of his busy schedule to come be Sam again. It was so refreshing to see him.....and he looks about like I imagine Jared looking at that age; all elbows and knees and height he doesn't know what to do with. Luci was cruel in this ep, trying so hard to knock Sam down, trying to appeal to Sam's desire to do the right thing (always the best way to get to Sam BTW). I could have done without the litany of "let's review Sam Winchester's greatest faults" though and the reiteration of the fallacy that Sam didn't look for Dean because of that stupid promise: THERE WAS NO PROMISE! Just a request from Sam to Dean in season 5 that he not try and get Sam out of hell, that's as far as it went. The rationale that they are forcing on Sam is beyond stupid and nonsensical. It doesn't work, it's OOC, it is a total conceptual fail, can we please let it go now writers? Stop bringing it up unless you plan to fix it, which I am sure you are not going to do! Thank GOD Sam wasn't stupid enough to fall for any of it; he was strong wasn't he? And that was nice to see for a change... they've put that bus in park for the time being it seems. Too bad Cas was stupid enough.... cause having TheD!!!! as a foe isn't bad enough, now we've got TheD!!!! AND Luci, and that's just so much better isn't it? Dumb and not that convincing really. Luci works on Sam for days (?), shames him, beats him up and he continually says no and Cas says yes in two seconds? Humph. I wonder how long it will take the boys to notice that Cas ins't Cas? And I am a bit worried about Misha's interpretation; in this first episode it appears that he was basically just imitating Mark P's facial expressions and doing it rather badly IMO, but I am willing to wait on that score and see how he develops as a character under Misha. What makes Luci work in Jared and in Mark P is that they do have some similarities as a character from actor to actor, things that make us see that there is only one Lucifer, but each actor has his own clear take on it. Jared's is my absolute fav though so Misha has some pretty big shoes to fill. I am just glad that the fact that we now have Casifer can't really be blamed on Sam at all... he was holding his own, there was a plan in place to fix the problem and it was only Cas's stupidity that ruined it all. I still really wish that Sam could have learned at least something crucial from Luci about the D to make the dashing of his faith and his trip to the cage seem even a little bit worthwhile or necessary, but nope, he still gets duped because the fact that he has faith means nothing and makes him a fool. Essentially he became bait, and that's a pretty sad thing to do to one of your leads. I am also holding out hope that Lucifer will continue to connect to SAM. If he suddenly becomes Dean's newest best friend (In Cas's body) I am going to be seriously pissed off. Dean connects to EVERYONE and Sam to pretty much no one. How bizarre would it be if Sam can't even keep Lucifer for a friend? But I am concerned that this is TPTB's lame attempt to get Misha and Jensen together for more screen time without setting off the shippers. Heh.. talk about naive??

There were a few things that bugged me though. The whole vessel business has basically come apart at the seams for me. It's ridiculous to assume that Cas could give any kind of consent where Jimmy's meat suit is concerned. The fact that Cas can even inhabit Jimmy at all is ludicrous let alone then give over his consent for a body he had no right to in the first place to another angel.. the whole point of the angels is that they need the power generated by a human soul to function on earth and they need that living body's consent to access that soul. The fact that Cas can inhabit dead Jimmy goes against canon and negates all angel consent, and without a soul, Jimmy should be useless to Cas right now and therefore useless to Lucifer as well. And as someone else pointed out, why not just kill Sam and take over his dead meat suit if that's all that is required? It makes Sam and his demon blood and his connection to Cain and Abel and the meeting of Mary and John destined to give birth to the true vessels of Lucifer and Michael not mean anything. So that whole part of the plotting has gone into the realm of the ridiculous for me. It doesn't work at all and diminishes the Winchesters and the series as a whole.

And another thing that bothered me; apparently now it's as easy to access Hell as opening a door in a warehouse in Nebraska of all places? Geez. It was bad enough that you could get there through purgatory. I guess, Sam and Dean were talking to the wrong rogue reaper in season 8, hell they should have just contacted Billie and they could have come and gone in and out of hell at will every day until they were finished with what they were doing, easy peasy. And Crowley didn't know about this doorway either? How many doors are there? Why doesn't Crowley know about any of them? Hell is a sieve apparently, and all that fuss in season 6 and even the fuss in season 8 about how hard it was to get there has been rendered irrelevant. This just strikes me as lazy plotting. No one can be bothered to make getting into hell the difficult journey it should be anymore, so lets have a garage door in Nebraska. Having said that though, I continue to like Billie, she's awesome and I'd like to see her stick around a bit. And even though it was just a passing mention, I was happy to see that clearly, Sam has come clean to Dean about everything, including the empty..... so Dean, time to man up now too.

And one last thing (yes, I CAN go on, Can't I? :p) Personally, I couldn't care less about Dean tracking Amara, Cas tracking Amara, Bureaucratic Angel tracking Amara, and basically Amara. I am finding her pretty dull and uninteresting and certainly didn't want to see so many characters or so much episode time devoted to dealing with her. Pretty much nothing happened there. Ooh! She's alive (knew that), ooooh, more threats (same as before), ooooh she sucked bureaucratic angel dry (could care less, she was a red shirt). It's all a boring, boring snooze; she's a snooze. Hopefully she will get more interesting so, but so far she's been a total miss for me and the pacing on that story has been about as good as the pacing on the MoC....IOW, glacial.

OH! and Rowena..... Huh. didn't see that coming. Basically as Casifer descended on her in that smarmy way I was thinking.... "they wouldn't...! Not now when she's finally been interesting for two minutes?" and then BLAM... she's dead. I am not sad to see her character go though; she was annoying, she was inconsistently and more often than not poorly written. Still though, I like Ruthie Connell and I know the boys have had loads of fun working with her. Isn't that just the way of this show though? She's FINALLY written in an interesting and intriguing manner for all of 30 seconds, creating just a smidgen of interesting character development, and then.....POOF! Gone.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2016-01-21 08:32
Okay, so you basically said everything that I was thinking. Especially the Sam and Castiel part. After watching for a second time, I'm actually more irritated. I suppose they meant to show that Sam has grown and learned and won't let his feelings of guilt and self blame cloud his judgement, which is great. Sam is the only character that seems to learn from his mistakes on this show. But Castiel is repeatedly given Sam's stories and learns nothing. I will be doubly irritated if, like you said, they use this as an opportunity to bring he and Dean together and it turns out that Sam's awesome story from the beginning of the season was just a plot device, ala the Gadreel storyline just to get Dean's MOC story rolling, to get Castiel's story going. And I can't tell you how much I loathe the idea of listening to Misha as Mark, going on about poor Castiel's self loathing and how he's expendable and been treated so poorly by the boys and we might get some scene reflecting the scene in the church between Sam and Dean in 8.23. OMG, I will really be pissed then. All of this came to me as I watched again this morning.

I thought Misha did a fair imitation as Mark as Lucifer, but I've already seen comments about how he's been the best at it so far, and it just goes to prove my point. Jared's portrayal of Lucifer is a shining moment in the show and they've handed it off to someone else, just like they pretty much killed Sam's storyline in season 7 and negated all of his hell trauma by having Castiel swoop in and take it away.

But as much as that part of the episode irritated me, I did enjoy it for the Sam and Dean parts and Lucifer trying to convince Sam to give in. Billy was great, I screamed when I saw Colin's name come up, so that was an nice surprise. And I thought Mark S. and Ruth were good. I'm not too sorry about Rowena, but I like Ruth so it's too bad about that.

My only curiosity is how long it will be before they find out about Cas and what Crowley is going to be up to, which is depressing because usually I'm more curious about Sam and Dean.

So there you go.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-21 08:42
I do not mind if they want to give Castiel a sl and I know it is a department they have been struggling in but not this one , not Lucifer . By the time they have finished there will be nothing of Sam,s original mytharc left.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2016-01-21 08:48
I don't mind Castiel or Misha and I think he adds something to the show, but I hope I'm really wrong about this because the thought of it annoys me to no end.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-21 17:17
When they were trying to figure out what was wrong with Sam in season 6, didn't Castiel tell Dean that if Lucifer had escaped the cage, the angels would feel it So I'd think at least the angels know.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2016-01-22 07:36
I'm rewatching season 6 just now to heal my wounded feelings :) and remember this scene very well. It seems to me now it was just a pretext, because Castiel knew exactly at that moment what was wrong with Sam, he only didn't want to share it with Dean, because he knew he couldn't correct it, and didn't want Dean to know that he used soulless Sam for his own purposes.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 16:31
Quote:
THERE WAS NO PROMISE! Just a request from Sam to Dean in season 5 that he not try and get Sam out of hell, that's as far as it went. The rationale that they are forcing on Sam is beyond stupid and nonsensical. It doesn't work, it's OOC, it is a total conceptual fail, can we please let it go now writers? Stop bringing it up unless you plan to fix it, which I am sure you are not going to do!


E, not only do they have no intention of fixing it, but by having Luci bring it up the way they did they are actually doubling down on it. I always hated that whole story because it was so OOC that I assumed it was merely a plot device to fill Sam with guilt and shame and thereby drive the events of the next two seasons. And that is exactly what Luci expressed in his speech. I agree with you that Sam would have felt just as much guilt by trying, and failing, to save Dean since that is what the Winchesters do: feel guilty about things that are not their doing. But apparently that would not have been sufficient for Carver, because it also would have eliminated, or at least reduced, the horrible friction between the brothers the first half of S8. And I think he has shown a propensity as show runner to believe that extreme brotherly conflict makes for wonderful drama.

I'm going to rewatch the ep tomorrow, but overall I really loved it because despite some logic and canon gaps, it was a fantastic display of Sam POV, when I had feared that it would be Sam-light. I also think they started some interesting plot threads. the more I think about it, however, the less I like the Cas/Luci plot. Partly for the reasons you stated (especially the fear that Luci will become a Cas/Dean story) but more because I'm not sure Misha's portrayal will work for me. I did not like it much last night. Far from being a good facsimile of Mark's expressions and mannerisms, I found it to be exaggerated and kind of goofy, like Levi Cas. Even when Mark/Luci was saying or doing silly or humorous things, there was an underlying aura of menace and power that was lacking in Misha's performance. And I think he can't hold a candle to Jared as Luci. Even if Misha dials it down, part of the problem for me is that physically Misha is a poor fit for Lucifer. Both Jared and Mark are huge, imposing men, so it's easier to view them as the powerful, evil archangel. Misha, though a fit man, just seems so slight and unimposing that he doesn't convey much menace. Even his somewhat high voice seems unimposing! Maybe he will tone down his performance and do a better job; but if not, it will kind of suck much of the drama out of his scenes, the way child and teenage Amara did. And this is not a knock on Misha. he has been a wonderful Cas, both angel and human, but not every actor is a good fit for every role and I fear this is a role that he can't do justice to. Hopefully I'll change my mind over the next few eps.
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-21 17:19
Quote:
OH! and Rowena..... Huh. didn't see that coming. Basically as Casifer descended on her in that smarmy way I was thinking.... "they wouldn't...! Not now when she's finally been interesting for two minutes?" and then BLAM... she's dead. I am not sad to see her character go though; she was annoying, she was inconsistently and more often than not poorly written. Still though, I like Ruthie Connell and I know the boys have had loads of fun working with her. Isn't that just the way of this show though? She's FINALLY written in an interesting and intriguing manner for all of 30 seconds, creating just a smidgen of interesting character development, and then.....POOF! Gone.
Comment last edited on 8 h
I know right?
Jen
# Jen 2016-01-21 23:57
LEAH BoGirle I was thinking Rowenna is now dead ???? Why would they bother to give us her back story if she dies 60 sec later. Over the seasons and especially S11 with Amara sucking souls. Crowley asked his lower demons -- "Is that a DEAD meatsuit" Good we don't won't soulless vessels roaming around. So to me if we follow cannon :o:o:o:o:o ?! Crowley can put a demon in Rowenna's dead body It would be interesting if they did that. I reckon he might especially now he knows why she hates him. And Rowenna would be none to happy with Lucifer killing her, so she and Crowley could team up together. It might be better than before because Crowley & Rowenna are on more common ground ????
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-22 00:55
Jen, I think they were just trying to make her seem a little more sympathetic or human. But beware of those types of moments because it's means an impending death for a character. Personally I am not crazy about the thought of her return.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-21 21:34
Quote:
THERE WAS NO PROMISE! Just a request from Sam to Dean in season 5 that he not try and get Sam out of hell, that's as far as it went.
The promise was off screen and accepted as reality by the characters. Sam and Dean acknowledged the promise as being real in their conversation. Dean and Bobby expected it to be ignored.
Sam: Look, Bobby, Dean and I had an agreement, okay?
BOBBY: I know that agreement. I taught you that agreement. That's a non-agreement. I get the feeling a lot must have happened while I was gone.
So, I think it was real and Sam followed it.
I do agree the show trashed the whole concept that hell was REALLY Hell and dangerous and almost inaccessible as depicted in the whole Dean resurrected storyline- it took a group of angels, some that even perished, to bust Dean out of hell.
Quote:
She's FINALLY written in an interesting and intriguing manner for all of 30 seconds, creating just a smidgen of interesting character development, and then.....POOF! Gone.
I agree that she was written well, I would say in the whole episode. It was a nice send off; I liked her for a few minutes and felt her pain as she created quite a vivid image of her pathetic existence - poor, sickly, pregnant, starving ( I could even smell the stench) before the neck snap.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 22:07
Oooh, and the neck snap and her lying there with her heard turned round wrong was pretty brutal...... ick. !
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2016-01-22 12:44
"The promise was off screen and accepted as reality by the characters. Sam and Dean acknowledged the promise as being real in their conversation. Dean and Bobby expected it to be ignored.
Sam: Look, Bobby, Dean and I had an agreement, okay?
BOBBY: I know that agreement. I taught you that agreement. That's a non-agreement. I get the feeling a lot must have happened while I was gone.
So, I think it was real and Sam followed it. "

Thanks for posting this. This is the agreement I was referencing in another post. Sam did keep his agreement. Dean had no right to be pissed about it as he agreed to it. Too bad the writers had Dean bitch at Sam for keeping his word. So, of course, fandom did that as well. This fandom only sees and hears what it wants to apparently. Of course, the Dean is always right and Sam is always wrong writing is the problem.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 08:14
Quote:
The fact that Cas can even inhabit Jimmy at all is ludicrous let alone then give over his consent for a body he had no right to in the first place to another angel.. the whole point of the angels is that they need the power generated by a human soul to function on earth and they need that living body's consent to access that soul. The fact that Cas can inhabit dead Jimmy goes against canon


The angel possession issue has become muddled, but my take on this is that Cas is the exception that proves the rule. God himself enabled Cas to continue possessing an empty meatsuit when he brought Cas back in SS, while sending Jimmy to heaven. I even wondered if Dabb was trying to forestall these types of objections when he had Amara remark that God has always taken a special interest in Cas. God can trump canon! :) I have more thoughts about your comment but for now I have to go to work.:(
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 08:35
Yeah... I figure that the writers are pretty well aware that nothing about the angel possession is working any more, so they have a character like Amara say "God has always made concessions for you".... Poof! instant excuse to bend the story to your will despite previous examples to the contrary. But this just makes the problem worse. They've given Cas special status (which isn't really a problem in and of itself), but they've done so by diminishing the history and significance of the Winchester's and why they were so special in the first place. Theoretically, now that he's out, Lucifer could just kill Sam and take his meat suit. No fuss, no muss. Basically, it's not SAM who's special, his lineage, his strength or even his demon blood, it's just his empty shell.. Sam as a person, a soul has nothing to do with it. It's like upgrading your car. Sam's a Lexus apparently.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2016-01-21 08:24
If I remember correctly, there was a deal in place not to look for each other. Dean mentioned it after he returned from purgatory and Bobby mentioned it, too, when Sam got him out of hell.
Liked the Sam/Lucifer scenes. Agree with those who find Amara boring. Not sad to see Rowena go, she annoyed me. Misha pretending to be Lucifer was cringe-worthy. Hopefully, he'll get better.
Give it an 8 for the Sam/Lucifer scenes and a 4 for the rest.
Seems completely wrong to me that one angel can possess another. If that is so then why didn't Lucifer possess one of the angels who were trying to start the apocolypse? I'm sure one of them would have consented.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 08:52
Good point... if Lucifer had possessed say Gabriel he'd have been twice as strong as any arch angel in the world. So what was Sam for again? The possession thing has just totally fallen apart.

Here's the dialog for the so-called promise.

SAM: Dean, I'm sure he knows a buttload we don't. We just got to hope he doesn't know about the rings. Hey, um... on the subject, there's something I got to talk to you about.
DEAN: What?
SAM: This thing goes our way and I...Triple Lindy into that box... y-you know I'm not coming back.
DEAN: Yeah, I'm aware.
SAM: So you got to promise me something.
DEAN: Okay. Yeah. Anything.
SAM: You got to promise not to try to bring me back.
DEAN: What? No, I didn't sign up for that.
SAM: Dean --
DEAN: Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland. You want me just to sit by and do nothing?
SAM: Once the Cage is shut, you can't go poking at it, Dean. It's too risky.
DEAN: No, no, no, no, no. As if I'm just gonna let you rot in there.
SAM: Yeah, you are. You don't have a choice.
DEAN: You can't ask me to do this.
SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to.
DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do?
SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you -- you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.

So, it was a promise. It was a promise Dean made to Sam and Sam only for that one instance of him going to the cage that one time. This was not in any way a blanket statement about any death that either brother MIGHT incur in the future, and it certainly wasn't a promise that Dean was ever in on, wanted or expected. To hold Sam to that idea for a future issue, when he didn't even know where Dean was, weather getting Dean back might be dangerous for the world or anyone else is ludicrous. It was a promise that Sam wanted for that one time, when getting hell open would break the world. That whole scenario did not apply to Dean's situation in anyway. For Carver to use that to get Sam to not look in season 8 was just about the weakest most corrupted and flawed plot development that has even occurred on this show, and the fact that they keep harping in it is making it even worse. The fact that fans are STILL upset about it nearly four years later should indicate to anyone who's interested how badly constructed that entire idea was. I hated it and Jared hated it too.... but he's a team player so he played ball like the good guy he is and kept his comments to a minimum. They should have given Sam a better reason, any other reason, or had him look and fail, which would still have generated all kinds of the required guilt and still let Sam be Sam.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 10:48
I don't think Gabriel would have consented to Lucifer.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 22:10
Why not? There's lots of ways to get consent..... Just ask Jimmy, or Sam for that matter. :P
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-23 17:51
Gabriel didn't agree with the grand plan. He was on the side of humans.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2016-01-21 13:13
That's not the one I meant. This was earlier in the series. I'm talking about the one they referred to after purgatory. In episode 8.01. We never actually saw the promise made on screen. It was just referred to by both Dean and Bobby. Bobby said he taught Sam and Dean that agreement. I'd look for it but don't know where the dialogue is posted. If you can point me the right direction, I'll see if I can find it.
eilf
# eilf 2016-01-21 13:16
Bobby said it to Sam in Taxi Driver and Dean said it to Sam in 8.01
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 22:15
Taxi Driver *shudders* nothing from that episode can be used to help explain anything... the episode is utterly corrupted and therefore unusable. Hate.with.a.pas sion.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 07:39
:):)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-21 16:03
That's exactly how I took it. The conversation where Sam made Dean promise to go look up Lisa and live a normal life was not the promise not to look for each other. Two totally separate things.

I thought Misha did a great job as Lucifer. He had Pelligrinos mannerisms down. He really kinda creeped me out. Lucifer never scared me before. Now that he is finally out and is interacting with Sam and Dean incognito - that makes me really uneasy. I think Cas is just a temporary solution for him and that ultimately his goal is still and always will be - Sam.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 22:14
Oh, you mean the one that we never heard, that took place off camera and was only referred to at a later date with no indication as to time or context? The one that's impossible for anyone to quantify because it was only alluded to after the fact? That Promise? Yeah.... even worse IMO. The absolute worst retcon is the retcon to something that never took place on screen.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-21 22:20
But the characters referenced and acknowledged it so - canon.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-21 22:41
Sorry E. It is true, the characters (Dean Sam and Bobby) acknowledged it. For instance, they just did it again in this ep; Dean told Billie that his brother told him that Billie wanted to kill them. We did not see or hear the conversation but it stands to be true that Sam told Dean about Billie. I do see how you dislike the use of the off screen conversation used as a device to retcon.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-22 06:21
As far as the Billie thing goes, no we did not see Sam tell Dean, but we saw Billie tell Sam, so the original idea was on screen, just the dissemination of the info to Dean was left off screen; we as audience members knew about the original idea and saw it happen.

And I'm not really disputing that it's canon cause clearly it is, stupid, ridiculous bad canon, but canon. I am disputing the basic veracity of that canon; it's a manipulation by Carver after the fact simply to fuel a poorly conceived plot shift that he wanted to drive into the show when he took over; a plot point that he knew didn't work, and was wildly out of character, forcing him to create this unseen and never before heard conversation simply to try and justify where he was attempting to take the story. Alluding to a conversation that we, the audience never sees is weak canon, it lacks strength and validity; and they went and attached it to a MAJOR character action and important plot point. It was not natural or organic in any way. There was simply no foundation for the entire concept of that made up conversation in the plot, so they had all the characters mention it on screen to try and force the issue and lend it some credence, which clearly, it did not. All it did was confuse and enrage because the basically flawed concept of it was so obvious. So it may be canon, but it's bad canon and a REALLY bad method of manipulating a story in a completely unnatural direction. And what's more, it didn't work; we are still bitching about it today. OH! and look! They pinned all that crap on Sam like they always do.

Basically, given the model of that stupid promise, Carver could have the characters do or say anything at all contrary to canon and just have them say "don't you remember? We talked about this... this is how it's going to be now" and then follow through with whatever contrived, illogical, destructive piece of crap plotting that they want regardless of logic, content, quality story telling, consistent characterizatio ns or whatever. There is no standard in this method of writing.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 07:42
Quote:
Basically, given the model of that stupid promise, Carver could have the characters do or say anything at all contrary to canon and just have them say "don't you remember? We talked about this... this is how it's going to be now" and then follow through with whatever contrived, illogical, destructive piece of crap plotting that they want regardless of logic, content, quality story telling, consistent characterizations or whatever. There is no standard in this method of writing.
That has always been my feeling about this. And to think it was his first major decision as showrunner!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 15:06
i don't think nor did i ever see sam in the wrong here. nor did i think it out of character for him to keep to a promise they've made to each other. it's so not black and white either, because at that point so much has gone wrong due to making deals and bringing ea. other back...that it led pretty much to sam being tortured for a century. mary's deal cursed her children. john's deal drove dean to guilt beyond guilt and in turn dean did the same thing to sam. in s3 sam wanted to use his powers and dean went on and on about not making another demon deal, not making the same mistakes. considering everything that they've been through and all the manipulation and sam accidentally raising luci....do you not think it's possible that at some time the thought might've entered sam's head that if he were dead none of it would've happened, i think it stands to reason since he felt the same way in first born and other eps in s9 due to his guilt for kevin. Bobby's last words to the boys, after becoming a vengeful spirit, was when it's your time to go ..go. that so called agreement they made was made for a reason....was dean not livid in lucifer lazarus rising when he though sam made a deal to bring him back? the agreement was made because of all the bad that's happened when bring someone back.

it's not sam's fault that dean says one thing and means another. if you're going to make a pact, expect it to be kept...dean knows his brother well enough to know that any promise they make, the promise will be kept. especially given why they made such a promise in the first place....

but here's the kicker....yes dean ragged on sam because he didn't look and made him feel bad, but we found out in a little slice of kevin that dean was basically taking out on sam his own issues and how he felt regarding cas.....

and more so.....in s10 sam had to sneak around in trying to save dean because he didn't want to be saved in a way that would cause pain to others....well hello is that not why sam kept his promise and agreed to this so called pact in the first place? Then dean got pissed off at sam and blamed him for charlies death....when in actuality charlie's' death had nothing to do with what sam did or didn't do.

now sam will do everything it takes to save the world , and he's willing to die and he's willing to watch his family die in order to make it right. maybe the point isn't about sam making a mistake ...maybe the point is having sam come to where he is now...if lucifer did anything positive in this ep in regards to sam, he reminded sam of not only how strong sam truly is but how heroic he is as well.....sam's guilt drove him to do what it took to save dean, to the point of unleashing the darkness...but i think what sam realizes now, what luci pointed out, is that sam will do the right thing and what's best for everyone....and not just for dean....that by showing dean he loved him by putting dean above all....he'd done what he'd set out to do....he atoned...he demonstrated to dean his love and faith in him and now that it's done,..now that dean knows....sam can do what's best for all..without having to fear or worry about what his brother might think of him or worry about failing dean....because i do believe dean has come to this realization as well.

jmo of course.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 15:10
i don't think nor did i ever see sam in the wrong here. nor did i think it out of character for him to keep to a promise they've made to each other. it's so not black and white either, because at that point so much has gone wrong due to making deals and bringing ea. other back...that it led pretty much to sam being tortured for a century. mary's deal cursed her children. john's deal drove dean to guilt beyond guilt and in turn dean did the same thing to sam. in s3 sam wanted to use his powers and dean went on and on about not making another demon deal, not making the same mistakes. considering everything that they've been through and all the manipulation and sam accidentally raising luci....do you not think it's possible that at some time the thought might've entered sam's head that if he were dead none of it would've happened, i think it stands to reason since he felt the same way in first born and other eps in s9 due to his guilt for kevin. Bobby's last words to the boys, after becoming a vengeful spirit, was when it's your time to go ..go. that so called agreement they made was made for a reason....was dean not livid in lucifer lazarus rising when he though sam made a deal to bring him back? the agreement was made because of all the bad that's happened when bring someone back.

it's not sam's fault that dean says one thing and means another. if you're going to make a pact, expect it to be kept...dean knows his brother well enough to know that any promise they make, the promise will be kept. especially given why they made such a promise in the first place....

but here's the kicker....yes dean ragged on sam because he didn't look and made him feel bad, but we found out in a little slice of kevin that dean was basically taking out on sam his own issues and how he felt regarding cas.....

and more so.....in s10 sam had to sneak around in trying to save dean because he didn't want to be saved in a way that would cause pain to others....well hello is that not why sam kept his promise and agreed to this so called pact in the first place? Then dean got pissed off at sam and blamed him for charlies death....when in actuality charlie's' death had nothing to do with what sam did or didn't do.

now sam will do everything it takes to save the world , and he's willing to die and he's willing to watch his family die in order to make it right. maybe the point isn't about sam making a mistake ...maybe the point is having sam come to where he is now...if lucifer did anything positive in this ep in regards to sam, he reminded sam of not only how strong sam truly is but how heroic he is as well.....sam's guilt drove him to do what it took to save dean, to the point of unleashing the darkness...but i think what sam realizes now, what luci pointed out, is that sam will do the right thing and what's best for everyone....and not just for dean....that by showing dean he loved him by putting dean above all....he'd done what he'd set out to do....he atoned...he demonstrated to dean his love and faith in him and now that it's done,..now that dean knows....sam can do what's best for all..without having to fear or worry about what his brother might think of him or worry about failing dean....because i do believe dean has come to this realization as well.

jmo of course.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 15:12
i don't think nor did i ever see sam in the wrong here. nor did i think it out of character for him to keep to a promise they've made to each other. it's so not black and white either, because at that point so much has gone wrong due to making deals and bringing ea. other back...that it led pretty much to sam being tortured for a century. mary's deal cursed her children. john's deal drove dean to guilt beyond guilt and in turn dean did the same thing to sam. in s3 sam wanted to use his powers and dean went on and on about not making another demon deal, not making the same mistakes. considering everything that they've been through and all the manipulation and sam accidentally raising luci....do you not think it's possible that at some time the thought might've entered sam's head that if he were dead none of it would've happened, i think it stands to reason since he felt the same way in first born and other eps in s9 due to his guilt for kevin. Bobby's last words to the boys, after becoming a vengeful spirit, was when it's your time to go ..go. that so called agreement they made was made for a reason....was dean not livid in lucifer lazarus rising when he though sam made a deal to bring him back? the agreement was made because of all the bad that's happened when bring someone back.

it's not sam's fault that dean says one thing and means another. if you're going to make a pact, expect it to be kept...dean knows his brother well enough to know that any promise they make, the promise will be kept. especially given why they made such a promise in the first place....

but here's the kicker....yes dean ragged on sam because he didn't look and made him feel bad, but we found out in a little slice of kevin that dean was basically taking out on sam his own issues and how he felt regarding cas.....

and more so.....in s10 sam had to sneak around in trying to save dean because he didn't want to be saved in a way that would cause pain to others....well hello is that not why sam kept his promise and agreed to this so called pact in the first place? Then dean got pissed off at sam and blamed him for charlies death....when in actuality charlie's' death had nothing to do with what sam did or didn't do.

now sam will do everything it takes to save the world , and he's willing to die and he's willing to watch his family die in order to make it right. maybe the point isn't about sam making a mistake ...maybe the point is having sam come to where he is now...if lucifer did anything positive in this ep in regards to sam, he reminded sam of not only how strong sam truly is but how heroic he is as well.....sam's guilt drove him to do what it took to save dean, to the point of unleashing the darkness...but i think what sam realizes now, what luci pointed out, is that sam will do the right thing and what's best for everyone....and not just for dean....that by showing dean he loved him by putting dean above all....he'd done what he'd set out to do....he atoned...he demonstrated to dean his love and faith in him and now that it's done,..now that dean knows....sam can do what's best for all..without having to fear or worry about what his brother might think of him or worry about failing dean....because i do believe dean has come to this realization as well.

jmo of course.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 15:12
i don't think nor did i ever see sam in the wrong here. nor did i think it out of character for him to keep to a promise they've made to each other. it's so not black and white either, because at that point so much has gone wrong due to making deals and bringing ea. other back...that it led pretty much to sam being tortured for a century. mary's deal cursed her children. john's deal drove dean to guilt beyond guilt and in turn dean did the same thing to sam. in s3 sam wanted to use his powers and dean went on and on about not making another demon deal, not making the same mistakes. considering everything that they've been through and all the manipulation and sam accidentally raising luci....do you not think it's possible that at some time the thought might've entered sam's head that if he were dead none of it would've happened, i think it stands to reason since he felt the same way in first born and other eps in s9 due to his guilt for kevin. Bobby's last words to the boys, after becoming a vengeful spirit, was when it's your time to go ..go. that so called agreement they made was made for a reason....was dean not livid in lucifer lazarus rising when he though sam made a deal to bring him back? the agreement was made because of all the bad that's happened when bring someone back.

it's not sam's fault that dean says one thing and means another. if you're going to make a pact, expect it to be kept...dean knows his brother well enough to know that any promise they make, the promise will be kept. especially given why they made such a promise in the first place....

but here's the kicker....yes dean ragged on sam because he didn't look and made him feel bad, but we found out in a little slice of kevin that dean was basically taking out on sam his own issues and how he felt regarding cas.....

and more so.....in s10 sam had to sneak around in trying to save dean because he didn't want to be saved in a way that would cause pain to others....well hello is that not why sam kept his promise and agreed to this so called pact in the first place? Then dean got pissed off at sam and blamed him for charlies death....when in actuality charlie's' death had nothing to do with what sam did or didn't do.

now sam will do everything it takes to save the world , and he's willing to die and he's willing to watch his family die in order to make it right. maybe the point isn't about sam making a mistake ...maybe the point is having sam come to where he is now...if lucifer did anything positive in this ep in regards to sam, he reminded sam of not only how strong sam truly is but how heroic he is as well.....sam's guilt drove him to do what it took to save dean, to the point of unleashing the darkness...but i think what sam realizes now, what luci pointed out, is that sam will do the right thing and what's best for everyone....and not just for dean....that by showing dean he loved him by putting dean above all....he'd done what he'd set out to do....he atoned...he demonstrated to dean his love and faith in him and now that it's done,..now that dean knows....sam can do what's best for all..without having to fear or worry about what his brother might think of him or worry about failing dean....because i do believe dean has come to this realization as well.

jmo of course.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 15:12
i don't think nor did i ever see sam in the wrong here. nor did i think it out of character for him to keep to a promise they've made to each other. it's so not black and white either, because at that point so much has gone wrong due to making deals and bringing ea. other back...that it led pretty much to sam being tortured for a century. mary's deal cursed her children. john's deal drove dean to guilt beyond guilt and in turn dean did the same thing to sam. in s3 sam wanted to use his powers and dean went on and on about not making another demon deal, not making the same mistakes. considering everything that they've been through and all the manipulation and sam accidentally raising luci....do you not think it's possible that at some time the thought might've entered sam's head that if he were dead none of it would've happened, i think it stands to reason since he felt the same way in first born and other eps in s9 due to his guilt for kevin. Bobby's last words to the boys, after becoming a vengeful spirit, was when it's your time to go ..go. that so called agreement they made was made for a reason....was dean not livid in lucifer lazarus rising when he though sam made a deal to bring him back? the agreement was made because of all the bad that's happened when bring someone back.

it's not sam's fault that dean says one thing and means another. if you're going to make a pact, expect it to be kept...dean knows his brother well enough to know that any promise they make, the promise will be kept. especially given why they made such a promise in the first place....

but here's the kicker....yes dean ragged on sam because he didn't look and made him feel bad, but we found out in a little slice of kevin that dean was basically taking out on sam his own issues and how he felt regarding cas.....

and more so.....in s10 sam had to sneak around in trying to save dean because he didn't want to be saved in a way that would cause pain to others....well hello is that not why sam kept his promise and agreed to this so called pact in the first place? Then dean got pissed off at sam and blamed him for charlies death....when in actuality charlie's' death had nothing to do with what sam did or didn't do.

now sam will do everything it takes to save the world , and he's willing to die and he's willing to watch his family die in order to make it right. maybe the point isn't about sam making a mistake ...maybe the point is having sam come to where he is now...if lucifer did anything positive in this ep in regards to sam, he reminded sam of not only how strong sam truly is but how heroic he is as well.....sam's guilt drove him to do what it took to save dean, to the point of unleashing the darkness...but i think what sam realizes now, what luci pointed out, is that sam will do the right thing and what's best for everyone....and not just for dean....that by showing dean he loved him by putting dean above all....he'd done what he'd set out to do....he atoned...he demonstrated to dean his love and faith in him and now that it's done,..now that dean knows....sam can do what's best for all..without having to fear or worry about what his brother might think of him or worry about failing dean....because i do believe dean has come to this realization as well.

jmo of course.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 15:13
i don't think nor did i ever see sam in the wrong here. nor did i think it out of character for him to keep to a promise they've made to each other. it's so not black and white either, because at that point so much has gone wrong due to making deals and bringing ea. other back...that it led pretty much to sam being tortured for a century. mary's deal cursed her children. john's deal drove dean to guilt beyond guilt and in turn dean did the same thing to sam. in s3 sam wanted to use his powers and dean went on and on about not making another demon deal, not making the same mistakes. considering everything that they've been through and all the manipulation and sam accidentally raising luci....do you not think it's possible that at some time the thought might've entered sam's head that if he were dead none of it would've happened, i think it stands to reason since he felt the same way in first born and other eps in s9 due to his guilt for kevin. Bobby's last words to the boys, after becoming a vengeful spirit, was when it's your time to go ..go. that so called agreement they made was made for a reason....was dean not livid in lucifer lazarus rising when he though sam made a deal to bring him back? the agreement was made because of all the bad that's happened when bring someone back.

it's not sam's fault that dean says one thing and means another. if you're going to make a pact, expect it to be kept...dean knows his brother well enough to know that any promise they make, the promise will be kept. especially given why they made such a promise in the first place....

but here's the kicker....yes dean ragged on sam because he didn't look and made him feel bad, but we found out in a little slice of kevin that dean was basically taking out on sam his own issues and how he felt regarding cas.....

and more so.....in s10 sam had to sneak around in trying to save dean because he didn't want to be saved in a way that would cause pain to others....well hello is that not why sam kept his promise and agreed to this so called pact in the first place? Then dean got pissed off at sam and blamed him for charlies death....when in actuality charlie's' death had nothing to do with what sam did or didn't do.

now sam will do everything it takes to save the world , and he's willing to die and he's willing to watch his family die in order to make it right. maybe the point isn't about sam making a mistake ...maybe the point is having sam come to where he is now...if lucifer did anything positive in this ep in regards to sam, he reminded sam of not only how strong sam truly is but how heroic he is as well.....sam's guilt drove him to do what it took to save dean, to the point of unleashing the darkness...but i think what sam realizes now, what luci pointed out, is that sam will do the right thing and what's best for everyone....and not just for dean....that by showing dean he loved him by putting dean above all....he'd done what he'd set out to do....he atoned...he demonstrated to dean his love and faith in him and now that it's done,..now that dean knows....sam can do what's best for all..without having to fear or worry about what his brother might think of him or worry about failing dean....because i do believe dean has come to this realization as well.

jmo of course.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-22 23:12
Quote:
i don't think nor did i ever see sam in the wrong here. nor did i think it out of character for him to keep to a promise they've made to each other
Hi sugarhi.... I think you've missed my point (six times!! Is that a record? :p). I am not blaming Sam. I am not indicating that I think Sam is wrong in any way at all or that I think it's bad that he kept that promise. I am not blaming Dean either. I am actually not talking about the brothers at all. I am talking about Carver's use of a fabricated, after the fact not-on-screen conversation that he made up and then crammed into the narrative to fuel his storyline and force the characters in a direction that they were clearly not meant to go. I am talking basic dramatic construction, or the lack of it, especially in that moment. The whole conceit does not work and it's bad form to drive your story using the device that he used...... the "don't you remember this conversation that we had that was never on screen?" When a show falls into driving their drama in this way it looses all it's credibility because they can now do any thing, say anything simply by putting in a retcon of "don't you remember when we talked about........?" which is referring to a moment we never saw. Its fine in small, insignificant instances like in the most recent episode where Dean indicates he learned about Billie from Sam in a conversation we did not see. That bit of info is not crucial to the plot, its merely informative and fills in a bit of detail we might have been wondering about, but crucial plot or character development did not hinge on that moment between Dean and Billie. But when you use a weak writing divice like that to drive your character to make crucial decisions or go against the grain, it's a writing 101 fail. That alluded to but never heard conversation caused Sam to act inexplicably and totally against his established nature. Carver used it to drive everything we've seen since.....all of it, Sam's guilt, the trials, the possession, the MoC etc. all driven by an event that can't hold up to the story elements it's being based off of. Its a house built on a rotten foundation; it's going to give way at some point. My problem is with the writing and the construction; not the boys.
percysowner
# percysowner 2016-01-22 23:33
The sad thing was they could have reworked it very easily, if they had been willing to push the fact that Sam thought Dean was dead. Instead of some never before seen agreement, return to Bobby telling them that when it's your time to go, just go. All they had to do was have Sam say that he searched the wreckage to see if he could find a trace of Dean. Heck he could have found a Leviathan that had taken Dean's shape, then died. Or even have him say he looked but there were so many burnt corpses that he finally had to accept that Dean was dead and then he went back to what happened with Bobby and decided to leave Dean in peace. THAT was a discussion that happened on screen and it would have made Sam's choice understandable. Yes, Dean didn't die, but was Sam supposed to stay in an exploding building and die looking for him? After he searched the wreckage how was he supposed to know that Dean got transported to a different place? I think they wanted Dean to look good and Dean haranguing Sam because Sam thought Dean was dead would not have made Dean look good. So they went with this "agreement" that made no sense and was OOC for Sam.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-23 07:16
Absolutely Percy's. I have always wondered why the writers don't try and find a justification or reasoning to drive new plots from things that we HAVE seen before. Your suggestion would have made so much more sense and worked so much better! That bit of Bobby philosophy would have worked miles better, they could have even flashbacked it! Instead they make up crap and cram it in leaving us all to go "huh? WTF!!?" The reason that they came up with the crap that they did for season 8 is probably exactly as you say....having Dean harangue Sam about him thinking Dean was dead might have made Dean "look bad" so they mitigated the situation to protect his image. How often have they done that now? The entire MoC arc was "mitigated" entirely out of existence because of their fear of tarnishing Dean's halo. Secondly, it might have worked better if they'd give Sam some damned POV. It's pretty hard to find any kind of justification in a character's actions if those actions 1) are inexplicable, weakly plotted, and OOC and 2) nearly impossible to sympathize with when we aren't allowed to really delve into the effects of those actions.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-23 08:24
I think I have to disagree. The way I saw Dean in S8 was hardly Dean with a halo, as a matter of fact...and bear with me on this one Leah if you're reading, I thought Dean was an absolute dick in the first half of season 8. I have been angry at Dean on occasion, but I've never hated Dean Winchester the way I began to hate him in s8. He was horrible, absolutely horrible and not just to Sam. Dean was cruel to everyone. He even went so far as to tell Sam that Martin "had it coming"....seri ously....a hunter killing a monster had it coming? I'm not even going to get into the absolutely ridiculous bromance he had going on with Benny....to this day I fast forward through blood brother. Dean's relationship with Benny was so over the top...it was excruciating for me to watch...so I didn't. :P

My point is that I didn't see Dean as being "the one who does no wrong" in the first half of s8, on the contrary, I saw Dean as nothing but wrong in the first half of s8. Then the second half of s8 came and Dean did a total 360 and I remember a lot of people on the board going WTF? And the more I watched the second half of the season, the more my frustration with the first half waned and then it hit me...So because I hated hating Dean Winchester, I took it upon myself to rewatch S8 again, but this time with an open mind, a clearer head and without all the frustration and it was so obvious to me, that I wondered how I missed it the first time.

Dean was a dick the first half of the season because he became the worst of himself in Purgatory. Everything he hated about himself, he became. He appreciated Purgatory, he found calm. He liked the killing and as much as he expressed to Sam that he was stuck in God's armpit, he failed to mention to Sam that he found a comfort in being there. Dean came out of purgatory changed.....dam aged....He lost, for the most part who is really was down there....the one part of Dean that stayed true in Purgatory was his need to find Cas...But in the end, Dean left Cas in Purgatory and led Sam to believe Cas had died. Dean's anger towards Sam the entire time was all his anger towards himself. Every sin he accused Sam of doing in SC, was in fact the very thing Dean was doing....and in A Little Slice of Kevin, we actually hear Dean confess to Cas that he didn't leave him down there...the very words he used on his brother. And his entire over the top relationship with Benny screamed that there is something serious f***ed up with Dean. The very fact that he became friends with a monster in the first place...Dean Winchester...an d to try to make Sam believe that Benny is the exception to the monster rule...Dean's own monster rule, which he seemed to follow later on ....all of it....this was Dark Dean, Purgatory Dean....and it wasn't until he pushed Sam too far, that Dean realized that Purgatory Dean had to go...he couldn't cling onto him any longer...and when Dean cut benny loose....Dean started to become dean again.

The second half of s8, validates everything I've claimed. Dean's need to confess to Charlie because he felt like crap. Dean's need to do the trials....yes of course a part of dean always wants sam to be safe and happy...but dean also felt the need to atone...for what he became in purgatory...he had to make it right...close the gates of hell..redeem himself in his own eyes. Sam of course needed to do the trials to atone as well, he needed to redeem himself to his brother as well as to everyone else for running away from hunting in the first place.

Both boys saw themselves as having failed and both boys needed to redeem themselves....a nd I don't think either brother was written in a saintly manner nor do I feel that either brother was written as being at fault....I actually saw the story written as both brothers not only breaking by the loss of ea. other and the loss of themselves, but managing to come back from that ...for the most part...it was a continuing story after all and the guilt and need to redeem themselves to ea other and for themselves has pretty much continued... I actually think that Sam's revelation in this episode, has finally allowed Sam to move on from all the guilt and mistakes....now it's just a matter of show revealing if the same applies to Dean ....hopefully we shall see....

this is all jmo of course. ;)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-23 06:09
hey bogirlie,

My post was and I should've clarified it better was just my general outlook on the situation. I wasn't slighting you in any way. I know that your issue has always been with Carver and the writing.;)

I get the fact that the writers will put in a throwaway line to make sense of a situation. Sometimes there's so much going on in a story that there's no time for anything else. While I find it totally plausible that a pact/agreement would've been made, I do agree that this is a case where a one off throwaway line does not do show justice. I don't mind the the fact that they used a one off line for something that happened off screen, but I do agree that this comment needed more....

I totally could picture when this agreement was made. I can see it happening either at the end of s6, after Sam got his soul back and started feeling guilty over what he'd done while soulless, or I can see this conversation happening at the beginning of s7, not long after Hello, Cruel World. I can also see this kind of a conversation starting with Sam..Sam being the one to request not being brought back and I can see both Bobby and Dean both agreeing and Bobby actually using the term, let's make a pact, a promise..blah blah blah...you get the picture.

I agree that I shouldn't have to be the one to lay down how it all went down. And even if we never get to see the agreement being made, I totally agree that when Sam said "we made a promise"...that statement should've been more explained more...even if not at the moment sam said it to dean. At some point Sam should've been allowed to mention why the agreement was made...."Look, when we decided after my stint as being soulless not to bring ea. other back.....or something like that...

I think Carver kept it brief because he wanted the reaction of the fans to be the same reaction dean had in "sacrifice".... .I think he still would've gotten the same reaction even if one or two words of explanation was included in sam's "we made a promise" speech....but there's nothing I can do about it.....so I just live the moment of how it went down in my head...and chock the rest of it up to it's done, it's over, why stress...;)

holy cow now I get why you said "like 6 times"....I totally didn't see all those posts. I was using someone else's computer....I knew it was slow in sending the post thru, but I had no idea when it finally did, it did so like 6 times.....sorry for that....
Mallena
# Mallena 2016-01-21 13:26
Totally agree, you go girl!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-24 01:11
That's not the promise that Sam was referring to regarding the agreement Bobby taught them. Two separate things. The first was the promise Sam made Dean agree to over going to Lisa and living the apple pie life and not retrieving him from Hell. Two separate instances.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2016-01-21 17:19
or he could have just killed Sam, wait for his soul to be reaped, resurrect and possess him. Sam was his one true vessel, wasn't he? I guess beggars (or devils) can't be choosers when trying to escape the cage :):):)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2016-01-21 09:09
watched only till cas diagnosing Dean scene...I do not know whether I will watch further.Maybe by saturday i will change my mind.
1) My brother will come and kick your ass.Sounds like some Deanfans fanfiction.This is what the writer put down on paper as Sam's dialogue.He seriously wrote this as something that Sam says to Lucifer.I would advice the writer to stop reading fanfictions.
2) Cas diagnosing Dean...comedy? really ..this is where they insert comedy?wow just wow.
I also read the spoilers...not enthused.
I have read that there is some promising Sam lucifer interaction...b ut I will see whether I can over look this ridiculous dialogue writing to go any further in this season.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-22 20:12
I agree Cas diagnosing Dean with his finger to take his temperature.... lame. Really, where did Cas intend to put his finger? Pandering to the Destiel fans no matter the answer. Also lame, the created Christmas dream of Rowena. I know it was for kicks but I could not see this particular witch have a repeated dream about a very modern Christmas involving Rudolph nose and toys. She obviously did not experience it and I cannot see her living this long and taking the time to know or watch the Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer video. Also lame, the statement from Sam that Dean was going to come and kick the devil's ass. It was obvious Carver is trying too hard to make up for the Sam not looking for Dean mistake.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 23:34
Quote:
I agree Cas diagnosing Dean with his finger to take his temperature.... lame.
But I think it's the preferred method for diagnosing smiting sickness!:)
Sinderella6!
# Sinderella6! 2016-01-21 10:37
I loved the ep. Great seeing Colin Ford. Jared and Mark P were awesome. What chemistry! Billy is a nice addition to the SPN family. Ruthie really gave a memorable last performance. It really rings true to me that no matter what, even Crowley wants to know why his mother hates him and just cant come to terms with it...cant leave it alone and is always wanting what he cant have..love. I am excited for the rest of the season.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-21 21:48
Agree with your entire post. Enjoyed seeing Colin Ford as Sam, happy surprise; thought Rowena got a good send off; Billy is an intriguing well acted character; and very true: Quote:
It really rings true to me that no matter what, even Crowley wants to know why his mother hates him
.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2016-01-21 11:06
I laughed with that xmas scene, shouting "It WAS real!" xD That was great! But the moment that had me howling with laughter was Lucifer's dance moves. I'm going to need a gif of that..

A good episode. But those flashbacks dragged on a bit. I was waiting for something exciting to happen but eventually something did happen. Two actually:

Lucifer in Castiel; Wow! Misha makes a good Lucifer.

Rowena dies; Nooo! But it delivered a big wow factor!

*sigh* And no torture. Just walking down memory lane and a fight scene. But I had to lol at Lucifer saying torture was so 5 years ago.

Rambling aside I am a little excited to see the inevitable Lucifer and Darkness reunion. No doubt it'll still be Casifer. But is it going to be as straight forward as that? No, I doubt that. I don't know what those twists and turns will be I'm sure it will be more exciting than the last two seasons.


1. Put your Rowena feelings below. I can’t even right now. I gasped as shock stabbed through me. Rowena is dead! I liked the character but her death by Casifer (or Luciel?) was a good way to go.

2. What do you think happened to Castiel? Is he in there or somewhere else? An angel possessing an angel. Mind blown. But really, I'm sure he's treated just like a human conscious; i.e sometimes aware.

3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all. Poor girl she will be missed :(

4. Do you think Lucifer is gonna let Sam off the hook that easy? Oh I don't think so. Maybe he will try to get Sam to say yes somehow like:

Casifer: Hey Sam do you like me? :D

Sam: Uh, yes?

*FLASHING LIGHT*

Sam inside his mind: Shit..

Or maybe he will plot the ultimate revenge. Like.. torture? :D

5. What will Crowley do now? Have a party. Actually I'm wager he's going to try and tell the boys but is hampered by Luci. Either way I don't think Luci is going to walk out of hell without doing something to Crowley. Will Luci have enough time to take control of hell next week? Or will he imprison Crowley and leave a message "Hell is mine now. Take care of Crowley. Luci xxx "

6. SERIOUSLY, WHY ROWENA????? I'm having issues right now. Its a shame but you have to admit deaths on this show make him more exciting! Its a reminder no one's safe and keeps you on edge.
Mallena
# Mallena 2016-01-21 13:22
So glad the comments are mostly positive. There was so much doubt about Sam staying true to his character development in the speculation article comments. Sam stayed tough, though. He really did need an extra line about his mental state in regards to staying with Amelia, since it was Lucifer who almost broke him in season 7. Rowena is not necessarily out of the show. Isn't her soul going straight to hell and back to Crowley? Also, what was all that loud background noise in the outdoor scenes. Freeway? Ocean? It was very distracting.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-21 14:51
I kind of think Lucifer telling Sam during the Amelia scene that that was the moment he lost it was actually in reference to his mental state. I mean sam didn't seek out a normal existence....he hit the dog and as we saw from that scene sam was already a basketcase. he was a bit over the top in trying to get the dog help...and his i did this screamed of the guilt that already existed....she then manipulated him into caring for the dog....and with that he was waiting for the dog to heal....so he took a job at the motel....sam was drawn to Amelia because he sensed her grief....like to like....and he was running away from his horror..so he kind of fell into the normal thing...but unfortunately for sam , not necessarily a happy thing.....cuz no matter how he tried to run...it was there, it was always there...which is why he went back to it...which i feel he would've done whether don returned or not....damn i digress....i was saying that i thought Lucifer reminding sam of his weakness (running from his life and staying with her) and the guilt he felt thereafter, as dean did come back and every action since then has been a result of his failing his brother and trying to atone.....that clearly noted sam's mental state ....which Lucifer certainly is aware was brought on by him to begin with. I felt like that was luci flaunting his victory right there....while also trying to make sam feel like that again.

and in regards to Rowena....she is a human after all, a witch....and wouldn't she end up in hell...wouldn't she end up a demon? ruby did...she was a witch...died, went to hell and became a demon.....would Rowena be even stronger as a demon? I kind of hope we haven't seen the last of her....i think i'd like to see her as a demon.....:)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-21 14:51
I kind of think Lucifer telling Sam during the Amelia scene that that was the moment he lost it was actually in reference to his mental state. I mean sam didn't seek out a normal existence....he hit the dog and as we saw from that scene sam was already a basketcase. he was a bit over the top in trying to get the dog help...and his i did this screamed of the guilt that already existed....she then manipulated him into caring for the dog....and with that he was waiting for the dog to heal....so he took a job at the motel....sam was drawn to Amelia because he sensed her grief....like to like....and he was running away from his horror..so he kind of fell into the normal thing...but unfortunately for sam , not necessarily a happy thing.....cuz no matter how he tried to run...it was there, it was always there...which is why he went back to it...which i feel he would've done whether don returned or not....damn i digress....i was saying that i thought Lucifer reminding sam of his weakness (running from his life and staying with her) and the guilt he felt thereafter, as dean did come back and every action since then has been a result of his failing his brother and trying to atone.....that clearly noted sam's mental state ....which Lucifer certainly is aware was brought on by him to begin with. I felt like that was luci flaunting his victory right there....while also trying to make sam feel like that again.

and in regards to Rowena....she is a human after all, a witch....and wouldn't she end up in hell...wouldn't she end up a demon? ruby did...she was a witch...died, went to hell and became a demon.....would Rowena be even stronger as a demon? I kind of hope we haven't seen the last of her....i think i'd like to see her as a demon.....:)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-21 14:51
I kind of think Lucifer telling Sam during the Amelia scene that that was the moment he lost it was actually in reference to his mental state. I mean sam didn't seek out a normal existence....he hit the dog and as we saw from that scene sam was already a basketcase. he was a bit over the top in trying to get the dog help...and his i did this screamed of the guilt that already existed....she then manipulated him into caring for the dog....and with that he was waiting for the dog to heal....so he took a job at the motel....sam was drawn to Amelia because he sensed her grief....like to like....and he was running away from his horror..so he kind of fell into the normal thing...but unfortunately for sam , not necessarily a happy thing.....cuz no matter how he tried to run...it was there, it was always there...which is why he went back to it...which i feel he would've done whether don returned or not....damn i digress....i was saying that i thought Lucifer reminding sam of his weakness (running from his life and staying with her) and the guilt he felt thereafter, as dean did come back and every action since then has been a result of his failing his brother and trying to atone.....that clearly noted sam's mental state ....which Lucifer certainly is aware was brought on by him to begin with. I felt like that was luci flaunting his victory right there....while also trying to make sam feel like that again.

and in regards to Rowena....she is a human after all, a witch....and wouldn't she end up in hell...wouldn't she end up a demon? ruby did...she was a witch...died, went to hell and became a demon.....would Rowena be even stronger as a demon? I kind of hope we haven't seen the last of her....i think i'd like to see her as a demon.....:)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-21 14:52
sorry for the triple post.....comput er glitch.....wow three...didn't think that could even happen. :P
Mallena
# Mallena 2016-01-21 18:48
I wish the writers would actually have the characters say those things out loud so we don't have to try to unravel Sam's motivations ourselves. If you go back to old discussions about season 8, there were a lot of people who thought Amelia was a dream, or Sam was in an alternate reality. That's how confusing the first episodes of season 8 were at the time. I had to rely on smart people like you to see Sam as mentally weary, not just sticking to a promise that even Bobby thought was lame.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-21 14:24
Loved this episode...reall y made up for the plot holes I felt were in the previous ep.

Dean said to Cas....if it worked then bring the body back. if she's not dead...run. Twice Dean "if it worked" when referring to Amara's smiting by the angels. That leads me to believe that perhaps there was more to it than dean simply ditching his brother...thoug h it's still a bit iffy.

As for Cas, I don't even think he's in jJimmy's vessel. I thought once Cas said yes, since I'm not sure more than one angel can exist in a vessel, that Cas switched places with Luci. I thought that was why luci asked Rowena if anyone else can open the cage...because he wanted to ensure, before he killed the only person, other than God who can send Luci back, that the cage couldn't be opened again and he can't be sent back or cas released.

I also believe in my original theory regarding amara and luci that I posted on nightsky's threads before hellatus. Given that to be the case, I think the message on Cas...i'm coming..wasn't about amara, it was regarding Lucifer, who I think amara had to do with setting him free. Plan B.

I think that cas using the same words to ambriel, before her slaughter and dean before Rowena's was a bit too coincidental. I think it's possible that cas was affected by the smiting sickness...the darkness and he without knowing he was doing it....allowed ambriel to die. i don't think dean is the only hold amara has . I think she and luci planned this whole thing.

As for the stroll down memory lane, the conversation during the Amelia scene confirmed in my humble opinion what i and some others have said all along....the promise not to look for ea other doesn't mean not to look for ea. other while missing....i still believe it means not to look for ea. other...as in look for a way to bring ea. other back. the confirmation i saw was simply that Lucifer pointed out what we've been saying....sam kept a promise, his mistake was believing his brother died, he was weak because he ran from the life....and every action since then is the guilt he felt because of that mistake.

I still agree with Cheryl that despite luci's confession, the vision in Baby was from someone else. I still think it very significant that Baby was shown right before this ep. In the vision notjohn gave sam two very important messages that i believe played significantly in this ep.

i can never fool you sam.......why would luci say that when he spent the entire eppy trying to do that very thing. To manipulate Sam into believing he doesn't have what it takes...that Luci is the only one....When Sam pointed out that Luci in the end would bring on the Apocalypse and Luci didn't deny it. All that bologna he fed sam just so he can finish what he started....and sam's right luci didn't do it alone....he had his family. I also think that comment is meant to remind sam that if anyone can recognize luci it's him....he did spend a century in the cage....so whoever sent that vision wanted sam to know that luci can never fool him....since whoever sent that vision most likely knew the other visions were from luci....that's why not john used the term "I"....because sam would find out the truth. The other part of that message was that God helps those who help themselves....t hat the boys have to trust in ea. other, which is exactly what sam told luci he does. Luci tried to destroy Sam's faith and it didn't work.

Ok so i think it's time for dean to open up to sam, as sam told dean everything, including billie. Billie is awesome and totally helping the boys. She's not working for Crowley, she said she was working with him. She helped Dean get to Sam....so to say God doesn't help....I'm not so sure....the boys sure do get help when they need it. I still think she's going to be a source of help for the boys in the future.

Cas must have been binge watching s5 and s7 of spn because he kind of nailed mark's facial expressions. Don't have an opinion yet on cas's version of luci since we haven't seen enough of it. I don't think luci will do anything to sam because my theory is that he doesn't want to stop amara, but he is in fact bonded to her....since she is the original mark and he the original bearer. the first to be corrupted by it. I'm kind of hoping that to be the case, then perhaps her hold on dean won't be as strong. I don't know how long luci can hide out in cas without sam catching on.... because as luci or not john told sam.....i can never fool you.

The cage match was brilliant....an d i too laughed out loud to the song luci was dancing too....but then on rewatch i saw cas' reaction to luci just then, and the song....heaven must be missing an angel...it's at that moment i knew cas was going to say yes....and luci seemed to know it too ...which leads me to believe that something happened to cas when amara touched him....and not just the message carved on his chest.


Jared was amazing/stunnin g and yes, sam Winchester is that strong...and it pisses luci off. :D It was good to see colin as sam again....and i really loved how the stroll down memory lane illustrated sam's strength and faith both in himself and in his family....and i still even feel he hasn't lost faith in God. Everyone did a great job.....and i liked Rowena....so i'll miss her....

but it is spn....so dead ain't necessarily gone;)
HelenaHandcart_
# HelenaHandcart_ 2016-01-21 15:06
Jimmy died. Cass exploded. God rebuilt Cass in Jimmy's image, essentially, but that ain't Jimmy Novak's meat suit no more, that's Cass in *his* new body.
As it is already angel-proofed, and we've seen that Gadreel, another Archangel, can possess a human meatsuit even with a current occupant, and that Hael and Castiel could share the same one simultaneously, I think canon has been followed to enable Luci and Castiel to share headspace. I think Cas is in there; I think Lustiel can access Cass' memories and fake his personality because of that, but there will be things that don't mesh. Such as The Anti-Cass being LEFT HANDED while Cass is right handed. I think that's what caused Dean to be a little confused with the shoulder contact, but whether he'll realise that is another thing. Personally I favour the whole 4am waking up in a cold sweat realisation that 'THAT AINT CASS'

Rowena is dead, long live Rowena the demon resident of hell, unfettered by that pesky human fraility...

Nice having a Sam heavy episode, but even if Destiel were already canon, Dean would still go to his human brother Sam's side over his infinitely more powerful angel's in a, lol, cage-match situation.

Re Destiel -I think that Luci knows what's in Cass' head and will interpret it through his own intent. So yeah, before Cass is revealed as Luci, it might be v interesting to have Luci seduce Deal, while Cass is helpless seeing what he wanted being twisted. Cue further seasons arc of both Dean & Cass having essentially been non-conned into a relationship development both want but feel wounded about. So many potential stories, and fanfic will explore every last damn one.

And we could even have 'canonized' wincest, with an unmasked Luci making any old shit up about Sam's inner consciousness and desires. SO MANY WAYS TO FUCK UP TEAM FREE WILL...
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2016-01-21 15:55
Quote:
Re Destiel -I think that Luci knows what's in Cass' head and will interpret it through his own intent. So yeah, before Cass is revealed as Luci, it might be v interesting to have Luci seduce Deal, while Cass is helpless seeing what he wanted being twisted. Cue further seasons arc of both Dean & Cass having essentially been non-conned into a relationship development both want but feel wounded about. So many potential stories, and fanfic will explore every last damn one.
No. Lucifer doesn't flirt.

Quote:
And we could even have 'canonized' wincest, with an unmasked Luci making any old shit up about Sam's inner consciousness and desires. SO MANY WAYS TO FUCK UP TEAM FREE WILL...
*facepalms*
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-21 19:33
Quote:
*facepalms*
Ditto
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 20:05
mega-ditto!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 22:35
Triple mega-ditto! and a groan. Ugh.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 22:47
E, it's a breach of etiquette to skip the double mega-ditto and go straight to the triple mega-ditto! And to actually supplement it with a groan! Very bold of you. But I guess in an emergency like this it's OK.:)
E
# E 2016-01-22 07:36
I believe I made another comment on the notion of the writers and naivite in this area.... And lookie! I was right. :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2016-01-21 22:37
Good Lord, apparently Destiel is inevitable no matter how they have to get it on the show.

I see your *facepalm* and raise you....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 22:48
....a prayer to the porcelain goddess, maybe? :)
Gail
# Gail 2016-01-21 15:57
I have no idea what's going on. Am I the only one who thought that Misha did a fantastic job as Lucifer? His mannerisms and expressions were very reflective of Mark Pellegrino. An amazing show all around. I was hoping that Rowena wasn't dead or wouldn't stay dead. But really, what an exciting episode!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-21 22:38
I actually agree with SamanDean.... I thought Misha's portrayal of Lucifer was campy, clownish and kind cringe worthy. It's like he was imitating Mark P's facial expression but that there was no real weight or substance. It seems very awkward to me. I am hoping that Misha takes some time to figure out how he needs to embody Lucifer. Imitating either Mark P. or Jared won't suit him and I though it showed here. That's my opinion though and I know not everyone shares it. Didn't work at all for me, but I'm willing to wait and see.
LEAH
# LEAH 2016-01-21 23:29
Oh it wasn't horrible but it seemed a little too exaggerated. Maybe worry less about the facial expressions and dial it back a little. Just my opinion of course. But again who knows, it was only a few minutes. It may work in future episodes. It may have just been jolting to see Cas be so animated.
Alice
# Alice 2016-01-22 00:48
I'm with you Gail, I thought he did wonderful. Lucifer is an over the top character and Misha nailed the mannerisms perfectly.

As for Rowena, think about it. She's dead. Where does her soul go? She didn't look like she was Heaven material to me. I bet her soul ends up in Hell with her beloved Fergus.
Sharon
# Sharon 2016-01-22 02:31
I have no issues with Misha but sorry I thought he looked like Mr Bean to be honest. But he has the character now so hopefully he will grow into the role.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 16:24
Quote:
sorry I thought he looked like Mr Bean to be honest
Sharon, this cracked me up, but I know exactly what you mean! Look at the screen shot of Casifer in Nightsky's article. It screams Mr. Bean.
JJA
# JJA 2016-01-21 16:01
1. Put your Rowena feelings below. I can’t even right now.

Great actress. Loved the actress!! Wish the writers have done a better job for her.

2. What do you think happened to Castiel? Is he in there or somewhere else?

Either (A) Castiel is the stupidest Angel in the whole of creation, or (B) he was compelled by Amara to become Lucifer's vessel.

3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all.

This went from being a joke, to being annoying. STOP KILLING OFF CHARACTERS!!!!! It's getting old and predictable.

4. Do you think Lucifer is gonna let Sam off the hook that easy?

Seriously? NO!! He won't. If Lucifer did let Sam off easy, the story would be dull.

5. What will Crowley do now?

Be Lucifer's b*tch!!

6. SERIOUSLY, WHY ROWENA????? I'm having issues right now.

Oh chill !! Rowena didn't go too far. I'm sure we'll see her again. After all, she's a soul in hell. Her son is King of Hell. Put two and two together, and we have Rowena chilling in Hell with her son. I'm sure they'll talk, and I'm sure we'll see them.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-21 16:15
Or Rowena is in the big Empty. Billie seemed in league with Lucifer didn't she? A perfect place to send a pesky witch to make sure she doesn't cause any more trouble.
E
# E 2016-01-22 07:44
Now that would be smart!
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-22 20:17
Hope you are right just for my sake. She can be in hell with Fergus after the show is over.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2016-01-21 16:27
Actually, thinking about this Castiel/Lucifer situation, if he killed Rowena because she's the only who can get him back in the cage, then really WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO ABOUT LUCIFER? Even if he manages to help them with The Darkness, then what? Their previous problem is that they had no weapon that can kill him and the only way they had to lock him up was for Sam to fall into hell. Are they going to rehash that story too and have Castiel fall into cage with Lucifer? I mean, if their giving Castiel all of Sam's old storylines, they might as well go for broke.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-21 16:38
I like Didi's suggestion that the First Blade could come back in play. Maybe that can kill Luci. Or presumably either God or Amara could kill him.
Didi
# Didi 2016-01-21 19:17
Just went back and watched the ep again. I think Andrew Dabb might actually watch the show. Good for you Mr. Dabb.

I think Cas may have been transported to the cage when Luci took over - it might explain some of the dialogue in previously released spoilers about Cas experiencing what Sam and Dean experienced.

I think the boys will figure out pretty quickly that Cas is Luci incognito.

Dean: Cas what's wrong with you?
Sam: That's not Cas, that's Luci. I can recognize the smell from anywhere.
Dean: Good talk.
spnlit
# spnlit 2016-01-21 22:17
1. Put your Rowena feelings below. I can’t even right now.
First, my condolences for your loss Linda. Otherwise, glad Rowena is dead and will hate to see her resurrected as a demon. Most of the time she was written and played too campy and annoying. BUT.... she had a great send off. Her last episode was written and acted superbly. At the end I felt she was real and felt her pain. Knew she was toast as soon as we knew she was in deep with the devil.

2. What do you think happened to Castiel? Is he in there or somewhere else?
What happened to Castiel to make such a decision? He lost his mind and forgot about what he learned. For me, out of character move. Castiel was stronger and more in control when confronting Metatron. Suddenly he is weak and self loathing????? They are going with the Gadreel arc. Why after everything would he put his faith in Lucifer? Where is he physically? I do not know because this a tad senseless. May be the downfall and death of Castiel.

3. Mourn Stats Angel, y’all.
:pGood one! I shall deeply mourn the loss.

4. Do you think Lucifer is gonna let Sam off the hook that easy?
NOOOO!!!

5. What will Crowley do now?
He will survive and connive. I think Lustiel (yes, I saw what you did there:)) has bigger plans and no interest in running hell and will leave Crowley intact.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2016-01-21 22:27
So I guess it's safe to say Adam is no longer in the cage just Michael;. :)
Jen
# Jen 2016-01-21 22:44
double post
Jen
# Jen 2016-01-21 22:45
For EVERYBODY

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiWpfbEwLzKAhWDKaYKHUykDWsQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com%2Farticle-archives%2Fseason-eight%2F17366-10-out-of-a-possible-100-reasons-why-im-excited-for-supernatural-season-8&psig=AFQjCNEMxabjGEc1bqOPTxzPa_dcBvWDLQ&ust=1453520649873325
Booklady
# Booklady 2016-01-22 00:37
Some questions -

Don't the Winchesters still have the Horsemen's rings? Didn't Dean pick them up after the earth swallowed up Sam and Michael? If so, they can open the cage. Nothing to lose since Lucifer is already out. Maybe get Michael out as well as Cas if he's there. I hope he is so he can plan something with Michael to fight the Darkness. They can also re-cage Lucifer without Sam being his vessel. Sidenote - Michael is a badass warrior archangel. If he's lost his mind it is out of sheer boredom and having to listen to Lucifer yammer on and on, pleased with the sound of his own voice.

With Rowena gone, what about the Book of the Damned? Sam and Dean have the Codex, but she had the Book, right? Or, was she using it to transfer Lucifer back to the Cage and now Crowley has it?

Also, does the Demon tablet come into play or Metatron's inside knowledge of God's Word? I would think the Amara would really like to get her hands on him to find out everything about God's Plan. He would also be really helpful to Sam and Dean. Shouldn't they be looking for him? Will Lucifer give him back his Grace to get his insider information or does he know it all already?

So many questions.

I know I'm in the minority, but I didn't enjoy the episode. It irritated me with reminders of the stupidity of previous seasons. I loved that Sam stayed strong. It's interesting how he stays strong because he has faith, no matter what. He's at his weakest when he's lost faith, and hope. Dean only has faith in his brother, nothing else. Take away that (and Sam) and he has nothing. I thought everyone, cast and crew, brought their A game. The lighting in the Cage was amazing. Jared and Jensen looked gorgeous. Just my opinion, of course :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 08:15
Lots of food for thought in your post!

Quote:
Don't the Winchesters still have the Horsemen's rings?
Huh, I forgot about them. Hopefully the writers haven't!

Quote:
With Rowena gone, what about the Book of the Damned?
That I had thought about, but I'm kind of hoping we're done with witchcraft. The BOTD was becoming an all-purpose problem solver.

Quote:
Metatron's inside knowledge of God's Word? I would think the Amara would really like to get her hands on him to find out everything about God's Plan. He would also be really helpful to Sam and Dean.
This was my thought earlier in the season, and I don't think we're done with Metatron, so I'm thinking he does come into play soon.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2016-01-22 11:06
The only ring they don't have is Deaths. Dean gave that back and was supposedly dissolved with Death.
E
# E 2016-01-22 12:24
Yeah... I wondered about that? Can a ring turn to dust? Maybe they'll go back to that restaurant and find that it rolled off under a table somewhere. Or maybe Billie has it for some reason? That would be a retcon, but it wouldn't be a bad one.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 13:10
Or MAYBE they could have a conversation that goes something like this:

Sam: If we had all of the horsemen's rings we could open the cage back up without using witchcraft and stuff Lucifer back in! Oh, crap- what happened to Death's ring when you killed him? Was it turned to dust?

Dean: Wait a second...rememb er when Death told us that if he was ever killed the ring would be inherited by someone else who possessed it? well, that's me, so maybe Billie the reaper can get it and give it to me!

Sam: Oh yeah, I remember that conversation (even though we have never discussed it or referred to it in any way)! Yes, let's get the ring, shall we?


Problem solved. :)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 14:38
I just figured that the boys would end up sending both amara and lucifer to the empty where neither can come back from, because i figured neither can die...unless reaped by death. the only question in my mind was, will cas end up in the empty? if it's as I think and cas is in fact in the cage and not in his vessel with luci, then show can find away to get cas in his original misha vessel.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2016-01-22 16:42
Quote:
I just figured that the boys would end up sending both amara and lucifer to the empty where neither can come back from, because i figured neither can die...unless reaped by death.
I like that theory sugarhi. It seems simpler than having to deal with the BOTD or the Horsemen's rings or the First Blade. But who would be powerful enough to send them there? God? Maybe that's when we'll discover that Death is not really gone. He could be powerful enough, although if so, why wouldn't he have done it to Luci in S5? and why would he have been so dead set against the release of the D in S10? There really are a lot of interesting possibilities for how the season might unfold.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-22 23:20
So, just how do things get into the empty anyway? Have we found that out yet?
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2016-01-22 14:38
I just figured that the boys would end up sending both amara and lucifer to the empty where neither can come back from, because i figured neither can die...unless reaped by death. the only question in my mind was, will cas end up in the empty? if it's as I think and cas is in fact in the cage and not in his vessel with luci, then show can find away to get cas in his original misha vessel.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2016-01-22 23:21
Sugarhi your computer must be in overdrive! Double, triple and sextuple posting all over the place!
Gwen
# Gwen 2016-01-22 04:51
I very much enjoyed this episode. Possibly not as much as others seemed to but I loved a lot about it whilst also having doubts/issues with some of it. I loved the brotherly moments and I adored all the Jared/Mark P scenes. Their scenes together are always amazing, fantastic acting by the both of them. Loved Sam's strength and bravery and his faith in Dean and in himself.
Loved Protective, Big brother!Dean (always my favourite flavour of Dean), his 'I'm sorry, do you know me' to Crowley telling him not to worry about Sam was great.
I was gutted to see Rowena killed off. I love Rowena and the actress seems a sweetheart but I hope Rowena has just gone downstairs to Hell now and we'll see her again soon.