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Mouth hanging open, heart pounding, out of breath. That was my reaction at the end of 11.09 “O Brother, Where Art Thou”! 

“What in the name of *&^%@ [insert your own deity, swear word or local colloquialism here] just happened??”

Sam is trapped back in the cage with Lucifer?? That single man tear tore out my heart. NOOO. Sammy!

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…and What is happening with Dean? He seems to be lucid and sane (he at least tried to stab Amara) but he is so drawn to her.

…and What is Amara up to?

…and Why don’t they trust Crowley? Has he ever double crossed them?

…and What is Rowena up to? She surely betrayed them!

….and Where on earth is Castiel???

Based on fans’ reactions afterward, I have come to believe that there were two ways to watch, “O Brother, Where Art Thou”. Some watched it with an analytical viewing, meaning it had to make sense. It needed to be logical, consistent with canon and believable, well, as believable as a show about visiting Hell can be. The other way to watch it was to let its emotion and impact wash over you. Embrace its dramatic tension. Soak in the immensely powerful visual story that was presented and go where it took you.

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That’s the way I watched Supernatural’s mid-season finale. It blew me away. I was on the edge of my seat throughout most of the hour (with a few exceptions that I’ll discuss below). My whole body ached at the end of the episode from the tension. Dean’s near hypnotism with Amara’s sultry, calm seduction and innocent, self-assured justifications mesmerized me. Then I literally held my breath when it looked like Sam was considering saying “Yes” (my poor husband is bruised from me hitting his arm in Sam’s momentary, dramatic pause before saying No). I worried constantly about what might happen next. In my viewing, the Dean/Amara and Sam/Lucifer/Crowley scenes were spectacular.

One might ask why a fan can’t have both exciting, dramatic suspense and a plot that is tightly written and consistent with canon? Actually, that is what I saw. Everything I saw was plausible with the right explanations and theories. There is no doubt, though, that this episode raised huge, troubling questions, only some of which I stated above, so where should we begin to unravel its puzzles?

Amara/Darkness/Dean


“Girl, you’ll be a woman soon. Soon, you’ll need a man”

Amara grew up. She is now the age she was when Dean first met her in a swirl of exploding Darkness.  Her physical maturity was specifically referenced but then questioned:
Dean: You grew up.
Amara: Yes
Dean: So this is you now.
Amara: At least for today.

What does that mean? She expects to change more? That was a tantalizing tease. I don’t know what to think about that at all yet. Do you?  Regardless of what she may become, her current identity and motivation is enough of an enigma to deserve our attention.

Amara is obviously enamored with Dean. She’s told him several times that he set her free and they share a bond. She is very protective of him, first spiriting him out of the Impala when she was set free, then saving his life in Crowley’s lair, a fact that did not go unnoticed by the King of all schemers:
Crowley to Dean: Why did she insist on sparing you? What is she to you?

Dean evades that question, largely because he doesn’t have any idea how to answer it. He is as confused by Amara’s actions as he is by his reactions to her. Her seduction of Dean was foreshadowed a few weeks ago in the closing song, but the time had come for Amara to make her move. When she had the opportunity to consume Dean’s soul, she hesitated and instead kissed him...a kiss he seemed to return.

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She obviously sees their relationship developing even further:
I am the original Mark. You and I will be together. It’s so simple, Dean. We will become one. Why wouldn’t you want that?

Dean is either denying, afraid of or totally confused by what is happening with Amara. Crowley spilled the beans now though, and the stakes just got raised, so maybe Dean will begin to discuss the unmistakable role his relationship with Amara has to their current crisis.

The Neglected Child

Despite her seductive charms and obvious physical maturity (a fact that was flaunted quite prominently by her low cut dress), Amara’s actions to a great extent were those of a child throwing a tantrum to get attention.

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References to children acting up because they feel neglected were laced throughout the entire episode. For example, Crowley hinted at the idea of toddler’s tantrums when describing limbo:
Crowley: We’re in the furthest reaches of Hell – limbo – where I send unruly souls for time-outs.
Amara herself confessed to needing attention when she explained her quest and defended her violent outbursts: 
Amara: You misunderstand my purpose on earth.
Dean: Well, do I misunderstand the people you butchered in that park? Or in that church?
Amara: I had to get his attention.
Dean: “His”?
Amara: God. I tried praying, calling out in need. He ignored me. He forced my hand. I had no other reason to harm his chosen. My issue is with my brother, not his creation.

It is also a child’s nature to rebel against rules. To their way of thinking, rules stifle their ‘freedom’ to do whatever they want.  Amara admitted to dreaming of a world without rules:
Dean: It is his universe, his rules.
Amara:  What if there were no rules? Just Bliss.

Lucifer reiterated Amara’s wild, rebellious nature then specifically referred to tantrums:
She's quite a force. Determined to take over everything even back then. Prone to tantrums. I can see why Pop is laying low.
He also later referenced discipline issues:
Am I up for parole? Time off for bad behavior? [a clever twist on the expected phrase of time off for good behavior]

Time-outs are associated with confining children to a particular space when they break rules or exhibit bad behavior. Is that what happened to Amara? Is that why she was exiled? 

Lucifer’s memories further implied a younger, less mature child-like Amara:
Lucifer: Now that sis is here, God's not the only circus in town. [reminder of the clown/fear/elevator episode?]
Sam:    Is she equal to him in power?
Lucifer: Raw power? Sure. But she's got none of the... Experience. God is a master strategist.

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The season’s primary theme of abused and neglected children should not be forgotten just because Amara is grown up. Sydney and Reese were also adults when they became violent over childhood traumas. It is very possible that the ‘children’ theme is still a major hint to Amara’s identity, or possibly her motivation. What if we have a child who was put in a very long time out because of her bad behavior? Is that consistent with the rest of the clues to who she is and what she wants?

The Chosen

Besides Amara’s reference above to God’s creation as the chosen, there were numerous other mentions of being “chosen”:
Park Preacher: Only the chosen will be raised to heaven.


Amara: Do you see what’s happening? All your favorites, all your chosen, they are suffering. Show yourself!

In all these instances, the “chosen” refers to humanity, using the Biblical depiction of “God’s Chosen People”. Amara claims to not have any reason to harm God’s chosen, but the word’s repetition in the dialog makes it interesting.  Predating Lucifer’s jealousy, was she jealous because God “chose” the safety of his creation over loyalty to her? That would explain why Lucifer suddenly started resenting humanity and acting like the rebellious youngest sibling when he took on the Mark. It transferred to him the jealousy of she whom it imprisoned. That would also take the Mark’s sibling rivalry and resentment of creation back one generation further than Cain and Abel.

Alternately, this could be pure sibling rivalry and she resents that God was “chosen” over her, but by whom? She was adamant that she didn’t have Daddy issues and there was no daddy. Right now I’m leaning toward the theory of the attention deprived, unruly deity being jealous of God's vision of humanity being the center of the universe. It just fits so well with Lucifer, the Mark, Cain and Abel, her wanting to do things differently…and God’s favoritism towards his chosen. What do you think?

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A completely different interpretation could be that Dean is the chosen one. Maybe the continual emphasis on babies this season (rabbits dying, “The Bad Seed”, “Baby”, visual cues, etc.) intersects with the abused child theme and we have an Amara who is all grown up and wants to procreate, with Dean, creating her own “chosen”. That way she can do things differently in the universe, as she promised in an earlier episode.

With all the descriptions we have been given on Amara, we still don’t have the full picture of who she is or what she wants. Amara’s description of herself was ominous and cryptic if not helpful: 
Amara:  I was the beginning, and I will be the end. I will be all that there is.
Dean:    So you’re it. That would make you God.
Amara: No. God was the light. I am the dark. That’s all you need to know for now.
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Amara believes she deserves “everything”, which was corroborated by Lucifer when he remembered her determination the first time around (quote above). All we know for sure is that she wants her universe back, and she wants it to be “dark”.

…In the Dark

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So much of this episode was dark – the nighttime meeting with Crowley, the Bunker Dungeon, Limbo, Hell – yet all of the background around Amara was light, beautiful and scenic – an angel fountain in a park, and mountains in an open expanse. The characters each took turns reminding us of darkness:
Priest: God is the light. And it is the light that vanquishes the Darkness.

Rowena: The original dark prince?

Sam: I don’t know Crowley. I’d say it suits you. Dark. Empty.

Lucifer: I gotta say, I’m a little in the dark about this meeting.

Even Amara defined herself as dark. Curious then that she was always depicted in light (e.g. she was introduced in the season 11 premiere as coming “Out of Darkness”). Maybe not all is what it seems with Amara. That would ring true with this season’s theme of the truth being hidden behind deception, or incorrect assumptions. Season 11’s episodes portrayed uncertain guilt, killers’ identities being hidden behind masks and costumes, people having no control over their actions (darkness disease, ghost possession), and imaginary friends that help children escape reality. All these plots point to not being able to trust what we’re seeing. Dean is certainly in the dark about what is happening between him and Amara. Crowley was in the dark about Rowena’s plan (more on that later), and Sam was in the dark about the source of his visions.  Are we being told and shown one thing when the truth is something else altogether? I certainly believe that we only know part of the truth about Amara. Similarly, I also believe that we can’t trust what we were shown on the flip side of the coin…

Comments  

danashulps
# danashulps 2015-12-12 20:15
Loved your review, insightful, as always. I look forward to them every week. There is a lot to think about here, and I have to agree what we have seen is not the full story. One other thing, to bring up a point someone else here made, while I believe Lucifer spoke the truth about the visions, the burning bush is something else, and I can't help but feel that it is a clue for the future.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-15 17:44
Thank you!
Yeah...curious if Lucifer would have been able to identify/name all the visions Sam had. Luci seemed suspiciously curious about them when Sam mentioned them.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 21:03
Nightsky, I loved your threads, especially Amara as neglected or angry child. Some other commenters thought she was acting like a spoiled brat, but I didn't see it quite that way. I liked the idea that she is trying to locate God, but cannot figure out how to flush him out so she is trying any and every strategy that she can think of. I liked her anger and frustration at being unable to draw him out.

I did not enjoy the ep as much as you did, despite the undeniably electrifying scenes at the cage. I found the Dean/Amara scenes to be ultimately much less effective because of that kiss. Nothing about Amara's desire to bond with or kiss Dean makes the slightest sense given her stature as one of the oldest and most powerful beings in the universe. I also found the angel scenes as poorly written and ineffective as you did.
But you actually raised a question in my mind about what was truly happening at the cage. As both you and eilf have suggested, it could not have really been Lucifer in that cell. Otherwise the whole impregnable aspect of the real cage becomes a joke. Who needs rings if you can just teleport Lucifer out of there? But if that wasn't the actual Lucifer with Sam, how was he able to exercise his powers and bring Sam into the cage? And if, even as a vision, he retained his powers, wouldn't he have used them to do more than just get Sam in the cage? Also, if he were merely a mirage, how on earth would he have been able to possess Sam, even if Sam had agreed? That would have made an escape from the cage something that Yellow Eyes could have easily engineered back in S 4. Just teleport Lucifer's image elsewhere and have some gullible person agree to be possessed by him. You're right that there must be more going on here than we were shown. I really hope the show explains this, rather than just glossing over it the way they did with almost the entire MOC plot.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-13 11:54
you know what would be awesome.....and a real plot twist.....if the entire ep is sam's vision.....:o:D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-13 13:29
Sugarhi, that's exactly what I'm hoping for. But did we actually see Sam in the vision part of the preview? I would also love it if it's some combination of the cage and the vision.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-13 11:54
you know what would be awesome.....and a real plot twist.....if the entire ep is sam's vision.....:o:D
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-15 09:15
I'm hoping for a twist as well, but one of a different sort. Right now, I'm hoping that the whole thing is an alt reality, that Sam really *isn't* in the cage with him, but Lucifer is making him *think* that he is, or making it appear that he is. I'm secretly hoping that it's actually Gabriel and one of his illusions, that his character has been resurrected. But, in all fairness, it's more likely that if anyone is creating illusions or alternate realities, then it's Lucifer himself. We'll see.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-15 17:50
I got the distinct impression it was somebody's 'imagination'. I'm going with Sam as the obvious choice.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 19:45
You know, the more I think about it, it's the only thing that makes sense really. So, Lucifer can suddenly create complex alternate realities now simply because there is a "crack" in the cage? Yeah, I'm not buying it. The elaborate nature of the promo (if it is in fact a part of the episode to come and not just a crazy promo) lends credence to the fact that this is most likely Gabriel. I don't see Lucifer being able to pull off something like that from the cage, crack or no crack.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 21:30
Oh yeah!!! And if a crack in the cage was allowing lucifer to communicate with Sam then why isn't Michael now communicating with Dean? Yeah, everything points to it not being lucifer whose responsible for the visions.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-16 00:21
Sam actually was Lucifer's vessel. Dean was a chosen vessel but never actually was Michaels vessel?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-17 02:06
Good point Cheryl. The saying "always the bridesmaid, never the bride" won't leave my head in regards to what you wrote about Dean being Michael's true vessel. Never taken out for a test drive. Michael was not once in the driver's seat, so to speak.

What's with all the references to sayings...?! Sorry, late. Tired. My minds stuck. ;)

Anyway. Great observation. ;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-17 11:34
I can't make my mind up about that promo. There are more and more Santa scenes in it. Alice is convinced it was a Christmas joke and is not part of the episode but the CW showed that same promo after the 11.01 rerun last night (saying Supernatural returns Jan 20). I think it IS serious and I can't imagine such a silly scene in such dire circumstances as we left the boys.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-17 21:33
Nightsky, as I hypothesized on another thread, the preview shows Lucifer touching Sam's head so I think all of the fantasy scenes are related to that touch. My initial thought was that he is trying to trick Sam into being possessed by getting him to say "yes" to St. Nick. But even if that is not Lucifer's endgame here, it still makes sense that he touched Sam's head to screw with him mentally, for some purpose. I really can't wait to find out.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-15 17:48
Thank you!
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Nothing about Amara's desire to bond with or kiss Dean makes the slightest sense given her stature as one of the oldest and most powerful beings in the universe.
IDK - being locked away alone for a millennia might make one long for a conjugal interaction with a handsome liberator! ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-12 22:13
I think that the vision with Not-John was not from Lucifer it had nothing to do with the cage. The burning bush was not a vision but a physical manifestation. Could Lucifer have done that? It is cheesy enough for Lucifer to do though.


The theory that Lucifer isn't really there is interesting. Maybe he is still in the cage but able to reach out and still manipulate what Sam perceives as real. This season started out with a skewed reality kind of feel to it. Maybe reality is still being warped by the Darkness. Nothing is as it seems. Whatever Lucifer's endgame is it has to do with trying to make Sam believe he needs to release him from the cage.

I was absolutely as crushed as Sam was when Lucifer told him God wasn't with him. Although like in the elevator I can see Sam standing up to Lucifer. I don't think he will be controlled by his fear anymore.

I am still having a hard time with Dean/Amara. There is a lot of talking and staring but no real progression yet. It's kind of frustrating. The only thing that happened that was interesting was that Amara couldn't kill Dean but Dean did try to kill her.

I don't think the outcome for Sam would have been any different if Dean had been with him. He still would have gone to the cell and he would still have ended up in the same predicament. Whatever that is.

Thank you for your review. As always I see the show in a different way than before after I read your threads. Now I'll have to do a rewatch and see if there are any clues I missed.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-15 17:51
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I see the show in a different way than before after I read your threads. Now I'll have to do a rewatch and see if there are any clues I missed.
That's very rewarding. Thank you!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-13 01:56
This was for the most part a very intense and exciting episode. Jared and Mark were a sheer delight to watch together. That loud crack you might have heard while watching this episode, was in fact my heart breaking for Sam. Sam ever so faithful, believing that God was truly sending him visions only to find out that it's been Lucifer all along......or was it?

This episode raised more questions than it answered and left my head spinning while my heart in fact was breaking....it' s always these types of episodes that raise so many questions, which is both frustrating and intense and exciting all at once. But we have to remember, this ep was part one, a set up to part two....I think we're in for more twists and turns.


When we first met Amara I admit I found the entire concept of her interesting, but I'm afraid after watching her for the last hour, my interest in her has waned. I liked her when she was a kid. She was creepy and mysterious and a bit scary, most especially her last visage as a teenager. She had an air of mystery about her and a menacing presence. I was even intrigued by her hold she has on Dean. I say was because my interest in her and her hold on Dean is kind of fading away. Amara as an adult is no longer menacing. She doesn't give off that scary vibe as she did as a child/teenager. What's ironic here is that, as a child Amara was more of a grown up than she is now. The adult Amara is behaving like a petulant child, throwing a tantrum, because she didn't get her way and her brother did. Talk about sibling rivalry and family issues. Amara is clearly manipulative. She's trying to give off the impression that she was done wrong, and the killing she's doing now is necessary and something she is forced to do. Nobody is forcing Amara to kill innocents out of spite. Once again God is being blamed for the bad behavior of others. Does that sound familiar at all? Given that I'm all about the positive, and I don't like feeling negative I set out to find a nugget that would pull me back in...that would negate my feeling of boredom that I have when I watch Amara alone and with Dean. Then it came to me....and though I'm still not that interested in Amara.....I was able to come up with a theory that will help me get through the ennui of her scenes and look behind the curtain as to what can possibly be going on...which for me is a bit more interesting than what we are seeing at the moment. As I listened to Amara's speech to Dean something occurred to me, could this have been the same exact speech Amara gave to Lucifer? Amara said she was bonded with Dean because he bore the mark and she was the original mark. Amara said she was the original mark. As the story goes that we got, God locked Amara away and entrusted Lucifer with the mark, which was a lock and key. We also learned that Lucifer was corrupted, became jealous and then wouldn't bow down to humans as God demanded. Lucifer defied God and was thus punished, banished to the cage. What if that's not exactly the way it happened? Amara/the D is the one who corrupted the mark in the first place. So what if the speech Amara gave to Dean was the very speech Amara gave to Lucifer? He bore the mark, she corrupted the mark and thus were bonded. What if her plan for Lucifer was the same plan she has for Dean, to become one...What if God banished Lucifer, not because Lucifer wouldn't bow down to humans, but because Amara was going to become one with Lucifer and if that happened she would've destroyed all God created. So what if keeping Lucifer in the cage had everything to do with saving the world and less to do with punishing him? Notice both Amara and Lucifer were locked away and kept apart. Has anyone noticed how very much alike Amara and Lucifer really are? Amara and Lucifer have basically given Dean the same speech about being the victim of God. Both Amara and Lucifer describe themselves as being betrayed by their siblings. Both Amara and Lucifer use manipulation as a way to corrupt. Both Amara and Lucifer ultimately want to destroy everything around them until it's basically just them. God created Heaven for humans, a paradise and salvation for human souls. Amara just wants to consume all souls. She gives Dean a whole lot of malarkey about the souls being forever through her, but in reality souls that are consumed by Amara end up in darkness where as souls that end up in heaven live in peace and light. We've seen Show's heaven and it's a good place to be.

Now let's get to Sam and his visions. I still think God is involved with Sam's visions. I'm inclined to believe that Lucifer is lying to Sam, manipulating him once again. I still do not believe that Luci sent Sam those visions. I'm not buying the cage was damaged and I can see and hear through the cracks story, because if that were the case, then I would think that Michael would be doing the same thing. Michael is an arch angel. Sam is part of the Winchester bloodline, so I believe it's just as possible that Michael could've used Sam as a vessel, therefore, Michael can connect psychically to Sam whether or not he was his true vessel. Michael being stuck in the cage with Luci, and being an archangel in such close proximity to Luci, would most likely know if Luci were in fact sending false messages and if that were the case, I would think Michael would warn Sam or at the very most find a way to warn Dean. I'm just not buying into the whole ...break in the dam story. I think Lucifer is manipulating Sam and messing with him in order to break his spirit and take away his faith, as I'm sure he's attempted to before when Sam's soul was stuck in the cage. Think about it. When Sam was outside the cage, Luci told Sam he had to allow him to be his vessel, as it's the word of God, in hopes that Sam's faith in God would trump all. That didn't work and still Lucifer tried to get Sam to be his vessel once again, that he was his only hope. It wasn't until Lucifer noticed the faulty warding and summoned Sam to the cage that he changed his tune and told Sam that he was the one who gave him the visions. To me it felt like Lucifer simply seized an opportunity given him. Lucifer has to know that Dean will come to rescue Sam. He knows he only has a certain amount of time to work on Sam. Sam won't say yes, but that doesn't mean Luci won't do everything to try to break Sam, most importantly, breaking Sam's spirit and causing Sam to lose his faith. Sam's faith could very well be how he's endured and survived hell for all those years. Luci knows that as long as he has Sam he has leverage with Dean....but it's more....if Luci can break Sam's spirit and take away his faith, then Sam may very well be unable to beat the darkness. If my theory is correct, then the one thing Luci would want is to reunite with the D. So yes, I think, as Crowley had done back in S6, Luci is taking credit for something he didn't do. He's using God's absence to his advantage. After watching twice now, it's obvious to me that Rowena purposely messed around with the warding. When Rowena found out who was in the cage, she was giddy like a school girl. She actually laughed out loud at the deliciousness of this situation and how she would use it to her advantage. Rowena definitely wanted some payback and this was her chance. Rowena isn't all about the petty though, she has her own agenda and I think, as Crowley tried to do with Amara, I think Rowena is attempting with Luci. Rowena isn't that much a fool, of course she didn't mess up the spell to the point that Luci can escape. She did however, mess up the warding enough to allow Luci to bring Sam to him, inside the cage. Rowena trapping Sam in the cage is nothing but beneficial for her. Sam either is mentally destroyed by Lucifer, which leaves only one Winchester left as a burden, or the Winchesters follow their normal MO and Dean makes a deal to get Sam out, which most likely would involve Luci's release. Rowena would then take full credit for that and thus try to get into Luci's good graces. Rowena has the BOTD, the codex and knows a hell of a lot of spells. Imagine with Luci released the spells she can unleash on him and bind him to her....much like the spell Luci used to bind Death to him. The power Rowena could amass if Luci were free?........Se emed to me that both Luci and Rowena have their own agenda.

I don't see Sam in the cage very long. I think Dean will rescue him in episode 10...but unfortunately for Sam(being hellatus and all, what will only be a short time will feel like, oh I don't know, 6 weeks...LOL) The question is though, will Sam be the only one who leaves that cage or will Luci be let out as well? If Luci is set free then why would God send Sam those visions in the first place? If God put Lucifer in the cage, why would he want him out now, especially if Amara would still have a hold on Lucifer as she did once before? I have a theory on this. I was thinking that Luci might actually have an important role to play here. I still believe that the only people who can stop the D are Sam and Dean. Dean cannot stop the D with this hold she has over him because of the mark. With Lucifer free, the first bearer of the mark, the one who was the first to be corrupted, possibly the one who was originally supposed to become one with Amara...then I think it's possible that Amara will be drawn to him, thus breaking the hold she has over Dean. Dean cannot defeat the darkness if he is bonded to her. With Luci free, the bond is broken and Sam and Dean will be able to defeat the D.....and since neither the D or Luci can be destroyed.....t hey must be contained....an d I think the one place that can contain them both, where nothing ever comes back from...is the Empty. I think God's plan is to have Sam and Dean banish both Amara and luci in the Empty. I think God is around and has been helping them, even if they are unaware of it. I also don' t think that Luci will break Sam or take his faith away. I do think at some point in the series, Sam will meet God and he will get a big thank you.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 11:17
Quote:
So what if the speech Amara gave to Dean was the very speech Amara gave to Lucifer? He bore the mark, she corrupted the mark and thus were bonded. What if her plan for Lucifer was the same plan she has for Dean, to become one...What if God banished Lucifer, not because Lucifer wouldn't bow down to humans, but because Amara was going to become one with Lucifer and if that happened she would've destroyed all God created. So what if keeping Lucifer in the cage had everything to do with saving the world and less to do with punishing him? Notice both Amara and Lucifer were locked away and kept apart. Has anyone noticed how very much alike Amara and Lucifer really are?
Outstanding stuff!

Quote:
I still think God is involved with Sam's visions. I'm inclined to believe that Lucifer is lying to Sam, manipulating him once again
Equally possible, consistent with the "not everything is as it seems", and much more exciting than Lucifer being the source.

Quote:
Rowena trapping Sam in the cage is nothing but beneficial for her. Sam either is mentally destroyed by Lucifer, which leaves only one Winchester left as a burden, or the Winchesters follow their normal MO and Dean makes a deal to get Sam out, which most likely would involve Luci's release. Rowena would then take full credit for that and thus try to get into Luci's good graces. Rowena has the BOTD, the codex and knows a hell of a lot of spells. Imagine with Luci released the spells she can unleash on him and bind him to her....much like the spell Luci used to bind Death to him. The power Rowena could amass if Luci were free?........Seemed to me that both Luci and Rowena have their own agenda.
Also an awesome theory!

Seriously, think about submitting a guest article to us during hiatus! You have great, fresh insights! ( I could almost publish the comment above as an article!) ;)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-16 19:31
Thank you Nightsky for such a compliment. I think it would be awesome sending you my ramblings in an official capacity....:D. . The only thing that might be a problem for you is a time thing....I usually get all thinky after watching a new ep. I watch old season eps with the current eps and then it all kind of comes together and boom ....revelations ...LOL. I know you requested a guest article during hiatus and believe me if my mind starts wandering you'll be the first to know...perhaps maybe when the next ep airs?

I really appreciate you taking the time to not only read all the comments but responding to them as well....your hard work doesn't go unnoticed. ;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-17 11:40
Anyone is welcome to submit a guest article at any time. The problem is that during the live season, we squeeze 8 reviews, a spec preview and 1 Bits&Pieces Round Up into the 7 day cycle. We really don't have a place to run a guest article (unless it is really outstanding and we double it up on a day with one of our staff's series). We LOVE running guest articles during hiatus though so keep that in mind!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-13 04:37
Quote:
Some watched it with an analytical viewing, meaning it had to make sense. It needed to be logical, consistent with canon and believable, well, as believable as a show about visiting Hell can be. The other way to watch it was to let its emotion and impact wash over you. Embrace its dramatic tension. Soak in the immensely powerful visual story that was presented and go where it took you.

I think I was in the middle ground also gasping to the special effects. They were totally awesome in this episode. (Maybe a hellatus article to focus on them)?

Quote:
Amara grew up. She is now the age she was when Dean first met her in a swirl of exploding Darkness. Her physical maturity was specifically referenced but then questioned:
Dean: You grew up.
Amara: Yes
Dean: So this is you now.
Amara: At least for today.
I got a bad feeling about this... Like the end result would be what ever she meant Dean and her combined.

There was also a picture in twitter that I guess represented a parallel to Cain and Abel story. I don't know how people catch these things.



One idea that came into my mind while you were writing about the Rowena/Lucifer deal that maybe it is even more complicated deal than that? Maybe Sam and Dean planned a more risky strategy to deceit Lucifer? They would know Rowena would betray them/make a deal with her to make a weak warding so that Lucifer would think he got the upper hand. Maybe the deal Rowena mentions was with Sam? "Sometimes striking a deal even the painful ones maybe the only option." Then Sam would seem surprised and beaten so that Lucy would slip the knowledge they need because he would think he won? So this whole thing would have been planned along and Cas would also belong to it? I think this would make the plan pretty complex and it would need also luck or good knowledge on your enemies and their behavior. Like predict how Rowena would act aka betray Sam.

As the episode seems to be split in two parts and as the first one was already packed I think we will find out what Cas has been doing and it is shown on the second part. So, we will see if you are on the right track. On the next promo he seems to be in a pickle.

Slight spoiler!

There has been a discussion about the images on the promo where something is carved on Cas's chest. For me it seemed to say "You are mine" or something so maybe Cas has been making a deal with someone? Although the letters were barely to be seen so I might be wrong. Can't wait for the next episode! We need some answers. :)

Also when I was watching again the episode with hubby he said that "What if the hod dog seller" was God. First, I laughed but then I started to think what if? What if he is keeping eye on the boys and helping them in tiny bits here and there. That he might not have a "vessel" but he could appear in any which form he wants. As a hot dog seller, a burning bush etc?

- Lilah
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-13 06:27
Or maybe the deal needs to be made by Dean reflecting the Cain and Abel story?



Bigger picture ("https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWGeG6bU4AAUYR2.jpg")

- Lilah
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-15 17:57
Quote:
Maybe the deal Rowena mentions was with Sam?
I like that possibility. It solves the problem of *when* Rowena would have struck the deal with Lucifer. I was stuck on that.

The Cain/Abel not talking to God parallel is cool. Cain assumed Abel was talking to Lucifer but what if he actually had been talking to God?

Quote:
What if the hod dog seller" was God
d-o-g = g-o-d
Ask Wednesday about the anagram she came up with for this too!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-15 19:42
Now I am getting paranoid! :D

- Lilah
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-13 04:54
Thank you Nightsky as always a wonderful read it does give us another angle to think on. Also my mate Sugerhi. We do seem to have a secret bond lately LOL We appear to be thinking alot the same. Since Alice posted her thoughts I have been going through Ep1 - Ep8 and comparing notes and re-reading alot of the comments.
I had a very similar thought to Sugerhi but I just couldn't put it together. Actually reading your comment (idea) reminded me of Romeo & Juliet A tragic love story, Amara & Lucy must be aware that each other is alive but locked away. ??? Lucy now knows Amara is out and if your love story is true he will won't out ASAP. As you said what we know about Lucifer and the MOC gives your idea alot of credit
We don't know what Rowenna has been up too since she ran away in Ep 3. -- When Sam told her it was Lucy in the cage and she laughed, what if it was a laugh of ("it worked") what if she knew all along that Lucifer was in that cage & the both of them had been communicating this hold time. Lucifer manipulating Sam through visions to get him to the cage Rowenna working a spell but not the one they thought.
Lucy can't leave the cage without a vessel he said he would just go up in smoke top side. I think Lucy wont's to get to Amara and told Rowenna they would protect her. But that is a lie.
Remember Rowenna said to Crowley "Sometimes striking a deal even the painful ones maybe the only option." Crowley thought she meant the times she tried to kill him. Maybe it was a deal with the devil
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 11:19
You're welcome. Thank you for always reading them!
I love the Romeo and Juliet analogy!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-13 11:43
you know what dawned on me....Amara is so playing the God did me wrong card, that no one, especially Dean, has questioned Amara's creation. What I mean is, Amara seemingly came first right. She's all about the Darkness and her beef with God is that He had a different notion in regards to Creation than she did. She is as she admitted the Darkness and God is the Light. So what would the Darkness create that is seemingly a better world than the one God created when he created humans and all the animals, plants, trees...etc. Amara speaks of bliss....and consumption mostly. You know what that vaguely sounds like......monst ers. Monsters are creations that are blissful. They have no guilt or remorse....they simply are....they kill and are content in it. They aren't like humans at all....Had God not made the mistake of creating leviathans at first, yet locked them away in purgatory because they would eat the petri dish? God kind of took a different route in creating after that....are the levi's in fact truly God's creation and not Amara's? Or was it in fact in the beginning that Amara and God tried it together and with the creation of the levi's God sought a different route while Amara did not. Had luci become one with amara, or so close to it that Amara was able to bring darkness to God's world of light? The alpha vamp noted....we all have our mothers....and as such it is eve....but who created her? we all have our mother's don't we...is eve in fact a creation of Amara? Do the monsters that exist on earth...which represent darkness...whic h are in essence creatures that basically live in bliss...as they have no souls', they do not suffer, there is no pain and guilt as humans live with....are these monsters the original creation of the Darkness....and do the monster's fear her return because they don't want what they have now taken? these monsters now exist in a world of light....in essence they feed off humans now, they interact in this world and have in a way become part of the natural order....If Amara has her way, everything these monsters have now will be gone...as they will return to a world that is only darkness.....wh ere all is the same.....where they possibly will no longer exist .......the reward for human souls is paradise in heaven....but with the darkness....the re is no reward ....God created purgatory, where monsters go when they die....for them, it is their heaven for they can still follow their instincts...the y still get to be and act as they were on earth....Perhap s in the world of D.....that doesn't even exist for them....they become nothing....It seems to me, judging by her actions, and judging by the fear of even the monsters that the ultimate goal of Amara is simply to abolish all that until it is only her.....her admission that she's got a beef with her brother because he got to create the world he wanted and she didn't .....she's basically admitting that she's going to wipe out everything and start over her own way.....all that malarkey about bliss is just that.....cuz in the end...if she wins.....the only thing left is her. Putting Amara in a low cut dress to try and seduce Dean into forgetting what's truly at stake ain't gonna work.....:p
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 11:22
Quote:
is eve in fact a creation of Amara? Do the monsters that exist on earth...which represent darkness...which are in essence creatures that basically live in bliss...as they have no souls', they do not suffer, there is no pain and guilt as humans live with....are these monsters the original creation of the Darkness....
wow. Another great theory! That makes so much sense for the long reveal of the season!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-13 16:54
Quote:
Some watched it with an analytical viewing, meaning it had to make sense. It needed to be logical, consistent with canon and believable... The other way to watch it was to let its emotion and impact wash over you. Embrace its dramatic tension. Soak in the immensely powerful visual story that was presented and go where it took you.
(The latter sounds a little like what Amara is doing to Dean.) For me, these two elements can be imbalanced but not separated. This episode left me dissatisfied. I found parts not credible, characters annoying (Rowena), too much left unanswered or ambiguous and Sam's situation seriously dark and depressing.
Sam's Story- Lucifer/ Cage
This plot of Sam returning to the cage has been in the making since Swan Song and Sam's character build-up of this season. It should have been, but was not the dynamic main event in this episode on par with Dean's confrontation and killing of Cain. There was too much going on in this episode to do justice to this event. Then we are left with too many questions. How and why was Sam really led to the cage? If all we are left with is Sam being manipulated by and locked in the cage with Lucifer then the story is a mere, tedious redundant reliving of past horror and it destroys Sam's carefully and strongly built character development and growth this season of strength- facing fear, faith, and his personal role/meaning of being a Winchester/ hero. I am holding out for involvement from God and further character development. Another question is whether or not that is really Lucifer? I think it is him and SPN just got around canon with the handy use of witchcraft and the super Book of the Damned.
Dean: You're the King of the joint. Don't you have a key?
Crowley: It was sealed by God himself. Of course I don't “have a key”. The mechanism is of divine manufacture. I believe its secrets, along with the spells for warding Sam, are recorded where many such mysteries are found. The Book of the Damned."
Correct me if I am wrong but in the first go around Lucifer was confined in the cage by God and 66 of 600 seals had to be broken to get him out. Then it took the rings of the four horsemen to open the cage to put Lucifer back in. Right? So I find it NOT credible that Dean would even ask Crowley about the key; I think he would remember that saga. But now Witchcraft can override the divine mechanism of the cage. I think it is Lucifer unless, this show is not only messing with Sam but us as well and they are going to tell us next episode that they duped us all. Use of the "what we showed you is not real tactic" would suck. I found it not credible that Dean was not with Sam, on his way or had a damn good reason for his absence. It was out of character. Dean adamantly did not want Sam to go on this mission and Sam had just told Dean he was unsure he was ready. Dean apparently did not take Sam's call during such a crucial time because he was distracted by Amara. This is not credible because he later without any indication of why, manages to break his trance-like state to stab Amara. The suggestion that Amara released her control to allow him to make this decision means she has complete mind control and Dean is a puppet. I found it not believable that Sam would go ahead with the meeting with Lucifer without Dean because he said he was not sure, Dean could not be reached (Sam would have wondered why and would have been concerned now that Crowley spilled the beans that Amara has an extra special interest in Dean); there was no real reason for the urgency. Also, Sam is a smart guy, he had no reaction to the statement of Rowena that Lincoln was promised a fun night at the theatre, plans change......! Rowena mentioning a plan ending in assassination should be a red light..... warning- death, subterfuge! I think it was odd and not credible that Castiel was not present , consulted or even mentioned in this pivotal episode unless of course we learn next week that he was part of the plan.

Amara/ Dean
Who is Amara? We still do not know. According to Death, she was the Darkness that existed before God or at the same time. God and his Archangels had to wage a war to lock her up. Lucifer confirmed she was locked up. Amara said she and death do not know each other so someone is lying. BIG REVELATION: Amara states she is the original Mark. What does she mean? How can that be? The Mark was given to Lucifer as a Lock and Key to keep her locked up. So was she able to slip her being into the Mark? She is her own lock and key and is ONE with the Bearer of the Mark until the mark was lifted (not transferred) and she was released as a separate entity. Did she in fact corrupt Lucifer, Cain and then Dean but went easy on him because she liked him? And now she wants to become one with Dean because he released her and she feels at home with him? I also think she wants to procreate with Dean and have God her brother become an UNCLE.
In this episode Dean's relationship/ connection to the Darkness just got as confusing and inconsistent as the MOC/ Demon Dean story. Can Dean control himself around Amara or Not? Dean could not take a crucial call from his brother but he can stab her. I thought the stabbing was not credible because we had no reason to believe or no groundwork to indicate Dean was capable of doing it. We were led to believe Dean was highly protective of Amara and in their last meeting his inability to harm her was only broken when she took a shot at Sam. So the whole need to protect Amara when out the window.
Did Amara choose to not consume Dean's soul or was not able to do it? Why did she even try if she finds him so special and wants to become ONE? She also said she cannot be resisted. Does this apply to only Dean or others? If this is true, she certainly takes away FREE WILL. I do not think she is an abused child of anyone. I agree with NJSPNFAN that she was portrayed as petulant brat. I found her screaming, sarcastic, pettiness inconsistent with the ancient being she is supposed to be. I understand but wish she would have gone about her search and wrath for her brother in a more intelligent, menacing purposeful manner. I am confused and will simply wait until the next three episodes.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-13 17:10
To be fair this is the first part of a two part episode. I have a feeling Dabb will bring it home nicely.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-13 18:12
To be fair to who or what?
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-13 19:13
I think she just means that the next episode may be more illuminating and maybe more satisfying because it will handled by a more deft writer. Then again maybe not. :)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-13 20:43
To be fair to the writers of this episode (which I agree are not my favorites) this is part one of a two parter. They set up the questions and hopefully Dabb will be able to tie it all up (while presenting more questions I'm sure) in the second half. Presumably with much more skill and attention to detail.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 15:47
Yes, I agree that is why I stated I am waiting to view the next three episodes. It may or may not be a set up for a big "things are not the way they seem moment" which will coincide with the masks and deceit threads. Perhaps we are in for a few twists and turns. This episode just seemed to close to the convoluted, equivalent of the confusion surrounding demon dean and MOC Dean which were never resolved. How is Amara the original Mark..... inquiring minds want to know;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 21:29
OMG I just realized that Show has made the BOTD into a MarySue!!!! ;)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 21:32
Next the BOTD'd will become a ninja!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-17 02:08
With computer skills! ;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 11:45
Quote:
there was no real reason for the urgency.
I also was not convinced of the urgency. I specifically created a section in my review to show how the dialog tried to convince us of urgency, but I didn't buy into it. Amara's been growing up/loose for some period of time now (no sense of how long it's been) but all of a sudden Rowena tells Sam that it's now or never and he goes without back with Rowena and Crowley into Hell? Weak. That's also why I think there's more to Sam's plan though. I think he's the one holding the ace up his sleeve.

Quote:
Amara states she is the original Mark. What does she mean? How can that be? The Mark was given to Lucifer as a Lock and Key to keep her locked up.
I didn't think of this until I read your comment...
I've thought of the Darkness and Amara as two separate entities (I theorized about the dark parallel of the Holy Trinity) but what about this timeline:
- the Darkness was what was in the universe when God and his sister arrived.
- God and Amara defeated/beat back the Darkness so that Light could give birth to creation.
- Amara was given the first key to the Darkness' prison.
- The mark first corrupted HER, seeding sibling jealousy into her.
- so the angels and Little Bro (God) had to lock her up,
- God gave the Mark/key to what was now the Darkness AND Amara prison to his trusted angel Lucifer.
- It then corrupted him,
- Lucifer made the deal with Cain
- so God had to lock Lucifer up too.


Quote:
said she cannot be resisted. If this is true, she certainly takes away FREE WILL
EXCELLENT point.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-16 15:36
Interesting theory but does not work for me. It would rewrite what Death stated: Quote:
Before there was light, before there was God and the archangels there wasn't nothing, there was the Darkness. A horribly destructive amoral force that was beaten back by God and his archangels in a terrible war. God locked the Darkness away where it could do no harm, and he created a Mark that would serve as both lock and key, which he entrusted to his most valued lieutenant -- Lucifer. But the Mark began to assert its own will, revealed itself as a curse and began to corrupt. Lucifer became jealous of man, God banished Lucifer to Hell, Lucifer passed the Mark to Cain, who passed the Mark to you -- the proverbial finger in the dyke.
Amara also said she was the Dark in this episode.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-17 11:45
I don't see any conflict with that quote. It came from Death, who seems to have come after Amara.
"God locked the darkness away and he created a mark that would serve as both lock and key"
=> He gave it to Amara first, which Death didn't know about. It first corrupted Amara, who Lucifer helped to defeat, then
"He entrusted it to his most valued lieutenant, Lucifer, etc"

My theory only works if Death didn't know the whole story.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-17 16:27
But Death claims to be at least as old as God.
According to Death neither he nor God can remember which of them is older. Death also believes at the end of time, God himself will die, and he will then reap God.[1] (If Dean really killed Death he was wrong about reaping God.)
And if your theory is correct then the writers have to throw out some of what Death said about himself and the MOC. It is possible because they keep re-writing the MOC.
But you will also have to throw out what Lucifer just stated in this episode in regard to the Darkness and Amara being the same. Quote:
Well, I did help Dad seal up the Darkness all those years ago. She's quite a force, determined to take over everything, even back then. Prone to tantrums, I can see why Pops is laying low.
I admit that no where in this conversation does anyone actually say the name Amara but Lucifer does say : Quote:
Lucifer: Now that sis is here, God’s not the only circus in town.
Amara may change her form to the Darkness...... she did infer that she can change her form: Dean: So this is you now? Amara: At least for today.
So Amara says she IS the original Mark. "Quote:
I am the original Mark.
She does not say I bore the original mark. OR that God her brother gave her the original mark This does make things complicated. My original thoughts were: Was Amara able to slip her being into the Mark? She is her own lock and key and is ONE with the Bearer of the Mark until the mark was lifted (not transferred) and she was released as a separate entity. Did she in fact corrupt Lucifer, Cain and then Dean but went easy on him because she liked him? And now she wants to become one with Dean because he released her and she feels at home with him? I do not know Nightsky, and I am interested to see how this unfolds but I am half expecting this will not to be answered/ explained. This may be another time I suspend my belief in what is said and ignore it to enjoy the story.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-13 17:18
Nice Threads article, Nightsky. Reading thru the comments and am really enjoying a lot of the theories/opinio ns. Much to think about until January 20th.

The visions coming from Lucifer was not a big shocker but, for me, it was TOO obvious. I'm not entirely buying what Lucifer told us... yet. Something is definitely off/wrong about the whole concept of magically transporting Lucifer to a holding cell; even with the Book of the Damned, it just doesn't add up. There are a lot of twists/turns coming up in the next episode. I had the same thoughts about Sam visiting Lucifer telepathically. If not, Sam would have had a plan "B" in mind, wouldn't he? Even as desperate as he is, I can't see him completely trusting Rowena.

Analytically, there were a couple of preposterous/il logical things that happened this episode. I can't buy in to the fact that Sam would have let Dean go off to investigate the church incident alone, particularly after the nugget that Crowley shared with him about Amara and Dean earlier in the episode. And Dean not answering the phone when he knew what Sam was up to? I can buy that he was under Amara's thrall but the fact that he tried to stab her later in the episode contradicts this. Still trying to figure out what's up between Dean and Amara and whether she couldn't consume his soul before kissing him, or changed her mind. Maybe that will be the last step before they "become one".

The fact that Castiel was MIA this episode made no sense at all; wouldn't he have been able to tap in to Sam's visions to at least offer an opinion as to where they were coming from? A big fail for me. And, canonically, I thought angels only heard prayers directed at them, unless someone does an AAPB (All Angels Point Bulletin) like Dean did at the start of Season 9. Or is it different when you pray to God?

Dean returned to the hot dog stand at the same moment in time that he left; they also made of point of framing the hot dog vendor in many of the shots with Dean. Reasons?

Also think they need to be careful with Amara; she is not coming off as a deity; bratty and petulant are better descriptions. Yes, she is new to this world her brother created but let's not turn her in to another version of Wile E. Coyote like the Leviathans.

Completely agree with you about Crowley; he makes a deal, he keeps a deal. Gives his word, keeps his word. Didn't understand Lucifer referring to Crowley as old friend, even if he was being sarcastic. Lucifer was locked up long before Crowley became a demon, and Crowley went in to hiding from Lucifer in Season 5.

Still not sure the deal with Rowena; whether she knew the warding would fail, designed it that way, Lucifer is just that powerful, or Rowena made a deal with the devil.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-13 18:34
Quote:
If not, Sam would have had a plan "B" in mind
You may right, I think Sam had mentioned having a "Plan B" several times this season
Quote:
Dean returned to the hot dog stand at the same moment in time that he left; they also made of point of framing the hot dog vendor in many of the shots with Dean. Reasons?
There was a comment made that the writer's husband thought the hot dog man was God. I did notice in the re-watch that the hot dog man constantly looks at Dean. Maybe good idea to watch for other non descript characters keeping an eye on Dean.
Quote:
Completely agree with you about Crowley; he makes a deal, he keeps a deal.
Crowley did toy with Bobby Singer's soul. He promised to give Bobby back his soul, then did not. Later he intercepted Bobby's soul and sent it to hell. Later when Sam retrieved it, Crowley showed up again to send it back to hell but Naomi put it on the path to heaven.
Quote:
Didn't understand Lucifer referring to Crowley as old friend, even if he was being sarcastic. Lucifer was locked up long before Crowley became a demon, and Crowley went in to hiding from Lucifer in Season 5.
Maybe Lucifer knew Crowley gave the Colt to Dean to try to kill Lucifer in Season 5 and helped Dean locate Death to obtain the ring so to have the key to put Lucifer back in the Cage.
Quote:
Rowena made a deal with the devil.
I think Rowena made a deal because of what she said to Crowley : "You know Fergus, sometimes striking a deal, even a painful one, may be the only option."
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-13 20:58
In the case of Crowley and Bobby, Crowley was taking advantage of a loophole in the contract that said "best efforts" to return Bobby's soul. Was certainly a dick move but technically he wasn't breaking the agreement.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 21:35
Hmmm so then as I had proposed on an earlier post...perhaps the "whistle" we keep hearing is not really from a train as we have all hypothesized but is actually the sound of an Oscar Meyer Weenie Whistle!?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-14 12:51
spoiler alert; the English translation of Rowena's spell is
Oh, I wish I was an Oscar Mayer weiner, that is what I'd truly like to be, 'cause if I were an Oscar Mayer weiner, everyone would be in love with me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-14 16:39
:D Good one njspnfan. I guess I'm not the only one who knows every old commercial jingle by heart!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-14 20:15
i watched way too much TV as a kid... probably as an adult too :D
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 15:49
It could be Rowena's theme song. She does want people or at least other witches to love her. We can call her ROWEENIE!!!! Yes, I know, thats pretty bad... :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 16:26
spnlit, maybe it's because I had a long day at work and I'm tired, but I cracked up at Roweenie. Priceless!:)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 19:48
Roweenie weenie....:p
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-13 19:40
I think the biggest faux pas is how Dean/Sam even found out about the massacre at the church in the first place given they were both with Crowley and Rowena when it all went down. Seriously at what point during the commercial break did Dean and Sam miraculously find out this information.... .and seriously, I know commercials are long but really.....some how miraculously getting this info plus getting into his suit and driving only Chuck knows how far to get where he had to get....all during a commercial break......

like I said .....We get A....we get C.....but no B.......do these writers think that just because the drama is amped, the viewers are just going to accept anything thrown our way without question?:p:p
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-13 21:00
agreed... I certainly had no issue with them finding out about the massacre; they do scour the Internet for such things. I think they may have skipped over that because I couldn't see Sam agreeing to allow Dean to go by himself (since they knew it might be Amara related) and couldn't come up with a plausible explanation.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-14 10:00
The sad thing is they COULD have had Dean going off after the massacre against Sam's wishes so Sam wouldn't be the only brother acting against what the other wanted. But that wouldn't have left Sam open to criticism and Dean not. It also might have taken too much time for a scene like that, but still.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 21:40
Uh, yeah! Two words. Nep Duo. 'Nuff said. ;)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-14 09:01
this was so blatantly obvious compared to other times people felt they messed with canon that I didn't notice until it was brought up....and then I was able to see a way around it. This is such an obvious "what the hell" moment, that I'm wondering if it was deliberate..... a clue that all is not necessarily as it seems in this episode. :o
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-14 16:18
If it gives you peace to see it that way... kidding! I just had to use that quote from Cas to Dean. Interesting thought. I loved how confused/out of sorts Dean looked standing by the hot dog cart when Amara sent him back. Perhaps he heard the evil OM Weenie whistle...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-14 16:37
If the freaking hot dog vendor truly has some significance, I don't know if I will be amused or annoyed. I mean, who would masquerade as a hot dog vendor?!!!! God? If he is significant, I will have to start scrutinizing every random bystander in each ep because you never know where God could be lurking.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-14 17:51
:D

I'll tell hubby that SaD will come at him with an axe soon if the hot dog seller is revealed to be God. ;)

But doesn't it make sense? He doesn't do anything directly nor he is never seen for real in that matter. Maybe he can be in what ever form he wants to.

- Lilah
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-14 18:25
LOL Lilah, how did you go from Samandean being possibly "annoyed" to her coming at your husband with an axe? But having God be "one of us" is a concept I could get behind.:D
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-14 18:51
Well, you know it would take hours and hours and hours of work to check every little detail and person passing by in the episodes... And maybe I want to scare hubby a little too. :D
Though, he really thinks it is awesome he got discussion going. :)

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 07:22
Lilah, your hubby is safe.....FOR NOW! Because how would I even get my axe (which I'm sharpening as we speak) on the plane?:D
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-15 11:21
:D

- Lilah
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 00:20
Well, you know "what if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on the bus, trying to make his way home?"
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-15 01:34
" Just trying to make his way home, like a holy rolling stone, back up to Heaven all alone."
Yep that's what I was thinking:)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 07:25
During the ten years I lived in NYC there was a hot dog vendor outside my office whom I regularly patronized. Maybe I could have saved myself a lot of hours in church and just confessed my transgressions to him, all while eating his scrumptious hot dogs! :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 07:27
Quote:
LOL Lilah, how did you go from Samandean being possibly "annoyed" to her coming at your husband with an axe?
Thank you for your support Leah. Will you be a character witness in my defense at trial, should something happen to Lilah's hubby?
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-15 11:24
Yikes! :P

- Lilah
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-15 11:45
I'm there for ya sister!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 16:02
Quote:
LOL Lilah, how did you go from Samandean being possibly "annoyed" to her coming at your husband with an axe?
It is the exact question the jury would want to know. I will be your defense attorney!!!! We will use the driven to insanity contemplating God as hot dog vendor defense. We will make sure there are SPN fans on the jury; they will understand.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 16:33
I think the "God as hot dog vendor" defense would even trump the twinkie defense! I gratefully accept your offer to represent me. As a former lawyer, I was thinking about going pro se to save money, but you know what they say about a lawyer who represents herself: she has a fool for a client. And my momma didn't raise no fool!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 17:24
Get out of town, you live in a area I used to live in for 9 years and you used to be a lawyer, I profession I am now. We should talk some time; cool.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 19:46
That would be great! Also, if I recall correctly, aren't you going to a Con soon? I definitely want to hear all about it.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-16 15:04
That will be this February.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-16 17:10
Hi Spnlit, are you going to Houston? That is the one I am going to - my first one :D
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-16 18:48
No. Nashville, TN . Also my first. You should have a great time in Houston. It seems the Js have fun in their home state. I hope you enjoy !!!
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-16 19:34
Oh excellent - I hope you have fun too! I know the Texas cons are a blast, looking forward to it. I am going with a good friend I met here on this very site :D
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-14 20:16
hey... what about Samandriel... the weiner on a stick angel :):):)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 07:30
I forgot about him, in his cute little uniform. You know, wasn't Claire's boyfriend (or fake step brother, whatever he was) also a hot dog worker? I'd look it up myself but I hope to never see even a trace of that ep again. So maybe there is a thread of hot dogs running through the Carver years, a "wiener thread" so to speak. Nightsky should look into this!:)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 00:18
Almost as blatant NOT having Cas resurrect Charlie for absolutely no reason.... yeah, about like that. I truly believe that they are hoping that we won't notice.... the whole "if we don't point out that there is a huge logic flaw then maybe no one will notice that there's a huge logic flaw" method of writing. Boo. We noticed.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-15 01:16
Missing Cas from this episode is a pretty HUGE flaw. I think all have said it when they saw the episode and I agree. :D

- Lilah
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 16:04
Perhaps he was just out getting a hot dog.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 16:34
:)Hah, another good one! You're making my day spnlit. Maybe stand-up comedy is in your future.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 17:27
Hey, if there is anything Sam Winchester has taught us; it is best to have a plan B.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-15 19:44
Getting a hot dog is plan B? That sounds dangerous... :o

- Lilah
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 19:52
Getting a hot dog! A kielbasa might make SOME sense, but a measly hot dog?
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-16 15:14
E, as a person of partial Polish descent, I agree a kielbasa would provide more culinary satisfaction, but God is selling hot dogs. Wouldn't that be great if Castiel, finally finds God while he is buying a hot dog?????? We can go back to the scene where Dean was returned by Amara to the hot dog stand. Cas zaps in and says to Dean, there you are, where have you been, it s been difficult to locate you. Dean says, not sure but I'm hungry. They walk over to the hot dog stand and Castiel recognizes GOD!!!!!
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 11:51
Quote:
The fact that Castiel was MIA this episode made no sense at all; wouldn't he have been able to tap in to Sam's visions to at least offer an opinion as to where they were coming from?
Could Cas be enabling Sam to visit Lucifer with Crowley/Rowena? A sort of green room/holodeck creation? I have a picture of Cas sitting in the bunker with his hand on Sam's head, powering the 'film' inside Sam's head!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-16 19:31
or... what if Castiel is currently possessing Sam, not in control of him but staying in the background if/until needed?
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-17 11:49
OHHH, I like that! Cas is no match for Lucifer the archangel though. So I don't see how he could help Sam in that capacity. The "somewhere else doing something that's part of the plan" still seems workable.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-17 12:29
True, Castiel is no match for Lucifer but... he did trap Rafael in a ring of holy fire and molotov'd Michael in Season 5, and killed Rafael in Season 6 as Godstiel. So, while he might not be able to kill him, he could buy Sam enough time.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-12-13 18:56
Quote:
Sam is trapped back in the cage with Lucifer?? That single man tear tore out my heart. NOOO. Sammy!
I felt bad for him there too :'(

Quote:
Then I literally held my breath when it looked like Sam was considering saying “Yes”
Me too O.O I was tense as I thought "He wouldn't..?" I mean I thought if he says yes it'll be a bit cliche, but there's always a part of you that doubts it ^^
quietwar
# quietwar 2015-12-13 23:25
Ummm, i thought Michael was confined to the cage with Lucifer? What happened to that? #Supernatural #SPNFamily
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-13 23:54
the cage we saw in this ep wasn't the actual cage. The cage Crowley used was a different one and Lucifer was summoned to it by a spell Rowena cast. Michael is in the cage. Thing that seems to be the big question here ....is was that actually physically Lucifer? Since God made the cage to trap Lucifer in the first place....a lot of us are questioning the ability of a witch's spell to override God's own magic. The whole episode feels like we've taken a trip down the rabbit hole....and I'm wondering if any of what we saw actually happened at all?;)
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-14 08:27
Well suddenly last season MAGIC became the most powerful thing in the world. The Mark of Cain given to Cain when humanity was new? Suddenly it's not satanically controlled, it's "just a curse" that Rowena can remove pretty damned easily. Too bad for Cain that didn't find Rowena when Cossette was alive. It wouldn't surprise me if suddenly being a demon "is just a curse" .
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-14 11:05
Yes, and if Lucifer was truly transferred to this cage then the divine mechanism of opening cage and releasing Lucifer are also void and no one needed to break 66 of the seals and poor Lilith ;) did not have to meet her destruction!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-14 11:08
Quote:
The whole episode feels like we've taken a trip down the rabbit hole....and I'm wondering if any of what we saw actually happened at all?
Wow, they DO owe us a belated Christmas present in January!!!!
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-12-14 06:37
Thank you, Nightsky for a great article. But I'm far from sure that Sam's visions are from Lucifer. After a few days I calmed down a bit and now seem to be able to dissect the episode analytically, and the more I think about it, the more doubts I have. Now I'm almost convinced that Luci lied when saying that Sam's visions were from him. Now I believe that none of the visions were from him, they really were from God. All Sam's visions were of two kinds: the frist ones were of Sam's tortures in the Cage and Lucifer's touching him and the secons one was the image of his dad. Let's assume the first kind of visions were from Luci, what was the purpose then? To show Sam that he will be tortured if he comes to him? Does it make any sense? If the visions were from Lucifer, wouldn't it be more of a promise of help, more specific? Promise of torture doesn't look very appealing, what you think? And what did these visions really achieve? It's obvious, that Sam returned from Hell deeply scarred with the deep fear of Lucifer, and his hallucinations in season 7 clearly showed that. Now firmly believing that these visions are from God Sam overcame his fear. So the only thing this kind of visions achieved is Sam overcoming his fear of Lucifer. So, was the purpose of Lucifer for Sam to get over his fear? Does it make any sense? Now for the second type of the visions, the conversation with Sam's dad: God helps those who help himself. The meaning of the phrase is you should be strong and decisive, not to be afraid to take the initiative and then you will be able to do what you want. So Lucifer wanted Sam to be strong? How does it correlate with his desire to bend him to his will?
As for the parallells with Cain story, it's difficult to miss them, but do we know for sure that it was Abel who was deceived, not Cain? It seems to me, that the authors are just messing with our heads. What? It worked before. (c)
But I highly doubt that the suggestion that God will rescue Sam will come true. God in SPN doesn't work this way. I think it's only up to Sam, if he doesn't lose his faith and remain strong then he will defeat Lucifer and will bend him to his will. I think that was the true message of that vision of Sam's dad: if you find the courage to go to Lucifer to face torture again, if you are strong enough to defeat him, then you will have a chance. And I also think that Dean will do everything to save his brother, even if it means to open the Cage with the rings, but I also think, that Sam will find a way to rescue himself without any help. Oh, I almost convinced myself. The only problem with Carver's team, they sometimes defy logic. :( May be they just think that showing Sam's sufferings is raising ratings.
But if Sam was really deceived by Lucifer and will be saved by anybody, but himself, then what do they want to tell us? That Sam doesn't have the right to be a person? If that is maturing in Carver's book, then I'm at loss for words.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-14 07:51
I like your thoughts here. If you won't to encourage someone to come visit you after you have totally a completely turned them to mush why would you send them visions of said torture. The first vision as you said was when Sam prayed to god -- it was of his tremendous torture in hell. The second vision was more gentle it was of his father as a young man arond Sam & Deans age he was gentle with Sam & telling Sam what he wanted to hear. This is uncharacteristi c of their father, but it could also be seen as faith and encouragement. His final words were "God helps those who help themselves" all the visions after this where again of the horrors of hell We then get this lovely ep. with the Zana where Sam has a heart felt converstion with Sully.
I am leaning back toward god again. god would know the only answers to the darkness are Lucifer, Sam would at sometime need to go to the cage for these answers. God would have been trying to send visions of encouragment. Face your greatest fear, take strength from this fear & TRUST in me. As "Disgruntled" said above if Sam can hold onto his faith & strength he could defeat Lucifer Lucifer is about mind games after all, He is the master of manipulation if Sam can best him he should be able to have a flimsy alliance with him Similar to Rowenna & Crowley. Both J & J said they make unlikely alliances this season to get rid of the D. The cage is one Crowley put there as a meeting place - and it was a fantastic scene I feel it is Lucy in the cage (disappointed that the bk could do this, but it is a EVIL bk with unspeakable power) Skull cemetary is the cemetary from S5 Swan Song, It previews in Ep10 I think Dean takes his 3 existing rings and Deaths ring, which he contacts Billy to borrow, how he finds out about her is for someone else to work out. Goes to said cemetary throws them at the ground says the incantation which will open Dean's way back into hell. Once there he will see Sam has defeated Lucifer and they have come to a agreement to work together on defeating the D. Dean visiting Billy may open the story line around Dean killing Death & we may get some answers to that question.
While I'm on a roll here. I am wondering if the scene of Amara either going to suck out Dean's soul -- looking surprised ?? and then kissing him, may or may not have something to do with Dean having some sort of protection from killing Death or maybe the Hot Dog seller who we are going to call god protected Dean from said soul suck. LOL
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-14 16:42
Didn't Jared and Jensen hint in regards to the vision of John in the car that they know who it was , that they couldn't reveal it if they wanted to keep their jobs but that it wasn't anybody's father? If so then it wouldn't be John nor God the Father. Stretching it here but isn't Lucifer referred to as the Father of Sin? So by eliminating them who's left? What if it were Gabriel or Death or Metatron or Billie or Rowena or Amara or Crowley... well, your guess is as good as mine. Now the question is who set the bush on fire as that wasn't a vision but happened in real time.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-14 16:58
I think Jared did say at some point that who he was getting visions from was going to be revealed very soon. I think the implication was by ep 9. It wasn't anybody's father I think meant he wasn't their father. Lucifer isn't any persons or angels father. I am still holding out hope but it is now dwindling that Not-John wasn't Lucifer. Maybe back when they made those comments the J's didn't know if all the visions were coming from the same being. I can only hope that poor Sam isn't going to lose hope and faith. That is just no ok.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-14 21:02
i still don't buy Lucifer being the one to give the visions....ther e's way more to this ep than what we've seen...did you see the interview the boys just gave? the interviewer asked if they could give any spoilers....and then the boys kind of mimed what happened.....an d they were in face makeup...so they were in a fight....and also I think I recall as well that the boys said in an interview that there was a big fight and we knew who two of them were....and I really don't think they were referring to themselves....a nd I believe they were talking of the midseason finale.....we'v e only seen half an ep....and i'm not even sure how much of this ep is what we think we saw.....i'm very excited for the second half and finding out what really went down.....:D
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 12:10
Quote:
the Hot Dog seller who we are going to call god protected Dean from said soul suck. LOL
:):D:)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-14 11:01
Your analysis makes a lot of sense and I am convinced. I hope the writers are as logical and you are right!
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 12:05
You're welcome! Thank you so much for reading it!
Quote:
Now I'm almost convinced that Luci lied when saying that Sam's visions were from him. Now I believe that none of the visions were from him, they really were from God
Yeah, I'm being convinced by all these comments. I also like the Gabriel idea too.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-14 22:07
you know I was thinking about that missing scene....you know the one that happened during our commercial break...when we get dean at the church and sam left on his own....and i'm thinking about how important that scene really is and i'm really wondering why we the audience totally got nothing.....the n I started to wonder if that scene will be a flashback scene...what if the boys actually did have a plan B....what if at some point sam and dean discussed what they were planning with cas....and what if that phone call sam made to dean wasn't the only call? what if before sam called dean...he dialed cas and signaled him that he was going on with the plan....what if the call to dean was simply a signal that it was all happening....ma ybe the boys were a step ahead this time..knowing full well that dealing with Crowley surely meant a double cross at some point. maybe cas is plan B....
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-15 00:08
Well Sammy usually does have a Plan B so there's always that possibility... ;)
Plus Cas was in the preview for the next ep.

I just hope we get some serious movement on Dean and Amaras storyline January. I'm so weary of reading posts regarding how it's rape, she's raping Dean, it's non com, it's sexual assault, Show is doing irreparable harm by going there...
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-15 05:59
Thats pretty heavy accusations isn't Alycat, I think alot of fans take their "Love"of Dean a bit far ??? I,m thinking these thoughts are coming from jealous young fan girls do you
I can't see a mental rape here or sexual assult more emotional manipulation -- WOW this could do alot of damage I wish they would calm down ;);););)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 00:27
What if this whole thing was orchestrated by Gabriel? Maybe it's not Lucifer at all, but a ruse perpetrated by Gabriel to get Sam in a position to be able to offer help to him. I am beginning to think that the promo we saw was an actual episode; that Gabriel spins Crowley, Rowena and Sam into another crazy created world like he did in Mystery Spot and Changing Channels. He's done it before to "teach the boys a lesson." It would be just like him to do something like that. Maybe that he finally has Sam alone he's going to give him some info that he doesn't want Crowley and Rowena to be privy to?
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-15 07:16
One of my original theories is that it's Gabriel. I find that more plausible than it being Lucifer.....reg ardless of his confession, which I don't believe, i'm not sure I buy into Luci's ability to eavesdrop on conversations that are currently happening....li ke the one sam and dean had in the car before sam had the vision of not john.

alycat, that word never entered my mind concerning dean....what I find to be quite mundane and a let down....is that what I thought to be a scary, powerful, entity has been basically turned into a sex object...A God as Amara is supposed to be should be all powerful....yet she's reduced to a seductress who needs to show cleavage to keep dean's attention....I guess her so called bond with him isn't as strong as she thinks. When will the CW bigs realize that this audience is not about that.....
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 07:56
Agreed... Dean's suddenly being "assaulted" because he willingly returned a kiss? Please GMAB. If Dean had the wherewithal to stab Amara then he could have shunned her kiss as well... maybe he just didn't want to. Also agree that this part of the story line is going nowhere fast. In this episode we basically saw exactly the same thing we've seen in every other encounter between Dean and Amara. There was no new information and Dean is as inactive as he was the first time. It's boring... get on with it and I DON'T mean get on with making little Goddess/Dean babies either.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 12:17
I've been thinking about gabriel's "death". When Michael was holy oiled to "death", he just needed time to reconstitute himself. What is Lucifer's kill of Gabe wasn't permanent either? Gabe's been lying low and is ready to get involved? IDK...

Spoiler Alert: Jared did say that Billie would be back, I think in ep 10.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-16 15:22
E, we did think Young/ Dad was really Gabriel. That visit along with the crazy Christmas scene is his style. Also, did you notice how Crowley and Rowena were watching Sam and Lucifer as if they were spectators in the audience watching a play? They were given a gallery from which to watch, they were not part of the action, they were more concerned with idle chatter amongst themselves and then quietly left.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-17 11:51
John's "I never was able to fool you" comment would be accurate coming from Gabriel.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-15 08:14
Thanks Nightsky, I love your threads reviews. They always give me something to think about. I didn't like the episode as much as you did... but given the writers I also view the episode as a success. There were some great moments, the cage scenes being chief among those good scenes but there were some tremendous logic fails, some dubious pacing and some really atrocious dialog. It was interesting your comment about analytical vs. emotional viewing. I'd have to say I tend more toward analytical. I simply can't get my emotions engaged if my brain is saying "well how the hell did that happen?" For me, my emotional involvement depends on the quality and integrity of the writing and this script didn't have enough of either to engage my emotions with the exception of a few key scenes, and in those scenes I chalk my emotional reaction to the acting (which was stellar) more than the writing. Maybe it's because I am a performer myself by trade and deal with the greatest and most beautifully written scripts/scores of all time on a regular basis (Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, etc) that I am irked by the writing flaws I saw in this script; it just takes me right out of the narrative every single time.

I agree with S&D and NJSPNFAN, I am currently not liking adult Amara as much as I liked teen Amara. This Amara has no real sense of malice to her, more like petulance. I can't take her seriously so far. But it's only been one episode of her as an adult so I am willing to wait and see. This writing team is just so incredibly bad as "cryptic" dialog. What did we learn in the Dean and Amara scene that we didn't already know? Nothing really... it was just more of the same, and I expect more information in a mid-season finale, a few bombs dropped, a shake up or two, and while we got that with Sam, with Dean it was more terribly written cryptic dialog about how Amara's brother "done her wrong," and that she and Dean "will be one." That whole scenario doesn't make much sense to me. WHY does she want to be "one" with Dean? What's so special about him? (I mean besides the fact that he's Dean... ) but in the world of this show, why would she give a fig about some mere human? He must be a bug to her, an insect in his incredible insignificance in the face of her power.... like Death said one time about all humans. She claims its because he "bore the mark." Well... several people have borne the mark, and presumably Lucifer still does, so why should that matter especially considering that he doesn't have the mark any more? He wore it the lest amount of time out of anyone else by eons, so why is she preoccupied with that aspect? And she says that Dean "set her free," but that isn't even true. If she wants to be connected to the person that truly set her free, that would be Rowena, she found, concocted and cast the spell, everyone else just stood around. So, basically Amara should be mooning after Rowena and trying to become "one" with her. Logic fail IMO. I won't even get into the logic fail of Cas not being present or the missing chunk of time when they brothers find out about Amara's massacre... two more fails, at this point anyway. Dabb is going to have to do some major backtracking in his episode to get this episode to work logically.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-16 12:19
I'm caught up to this point!!! I am so proud of all your theories!! I have only 1 day to think about an ep, put Threads together, get pics and publish it. Some of your theories are so well thought out! This is great!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-16 20:11
another theory to explain Castiel's absence... what if he is possessing Sam? Not in control, but in the background like Gadreel was most of the time, waiting to assist in case something goes wrong.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-16 20:44
I like this theory njspnfan. It would provide a great explanation for Cas's inexplicable absence from the ep. AND it will have been a very well-kept secret by the show. I can't wait til January to find out what the heck is really going on.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-18 23:06
Would Sam really go there ??!!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-19 01:14
I can't see Sam letting anyone possess him. Not even Cas.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-12-19 03:42
I hope not Castiel or not I think Sam,s body as been abused enough .
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-19 10:32
I thought about that too before posting but, given the stakes, Castiel might be the only angel that Sam would consider giving permission to possess him.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-17 11:59
Nighsky - one other thing for future Threads that might be important and come in to play down the road.

In this episode, Sam said
"You know Lucifer was the biggest monster ever hatched, until you and I hatched one that’s even worse. Listen, in the vision, Lucifer touches me and I feel calm, like things will be all right. And that’s not something I would ever come up with. I mean that is the last thing that I would ever feel."

There have been multiple references to Dean feeling "calm" or "bliss" in Amara's presence.

Any reason for this same "calm" reaction by both brother to different evil entities?

Then, later on, "calm" comes up when Sam is conversing with Lucifer -

Lucifer: I have to say, you’re extraordinarily calm given the circumstances.
Sam: Well, it’s pretty much exactly how God told me it was going to be. Guess I just have to go with it and play my hand.

"Play my hand" is an interesting choice of words by Sam and would support the fact that Sam has a plan B.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-18 23:05
Calm & Bliss I agree it is referenced alot --- Had you noticed in the one sentence you used above "Hatched was used twice, and Chicken was used twice in this ep. Probably nothing just saying ???!!

"You know Lucifer was the biggest monster ever hatched, until you and I hatched one that’s even worse
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-12-17 12:00
So let's see what we've come up with:
- The hot dog vendor was God
- Rowena made a deal with the devil...or maybe with Sam (my vote's on the latter)
- Sam's visions were NOT coming from Lucifer. That "crack in the cage" line was a bluff. Best guesses right now are God or Gabriel.
- Amara and Lucifer "bonded" and he is trying to get back to his true love.
- Castiel is a strategic part of the plan
- Sam did not naively walk into a trap. He has an ace up his sleeve because they all foresaw this scenario OR this is all a vision.

What'd I miss? (I don't want to have to reread 115 comments the next time I attempt to summarize theories for Threads 11.10)! You are all doing great with the theories!! So glad this gave us a lot to think about.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-17 16:45
In regard to the theory that God is the hot dog vendor..... it may mean something that in this important scene with limited time to make all the points, the writers did give the hot dog man dialogue: he specifically asked Dean "HOT DOG???? , meaning does he want one. :)
Could mean he was focused on Dean OR they the writers were once again pointing out that no matter what is going on Dean will eat.

I do not think you missed anything unless you want to include the speculation that Amara is a separate entity from the Darkness.