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Why don’t I start with something positive?  After all, whether I like it or not, this was actually one of Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming’s better scripts. “O’Brother Where Art Thou?” was a big improvement over last year’s “The Things We Left Behind.”  There, I said it.  

Still, I'm not sure what my true feelings are.  It wasn't a brilliant hour.  In the end, it left me cold.  Maybe because when I look at the predicaments that both Sam and Dean were left, I'm not on the edge of my seat blown away.  I'm trying to process how freaking depressing the whole thing was.  How unfair.  How no matter what these guys do, the universe is screwing them with their pants on.  Again.  There are only so many distressed looks and single man tears I can take.  

The same problem that plagues Brad and Eugenie scripts in general really hurt this episode.  The dialogue was awful.  The pacing was atrocious.  The plotting once again inspired more “WTF” reactions than actual awe.  But it wasn’t a total train wreck (were there any train whistles in this one?)  Luckily the acting delivered, Rowena very wasn’t annoying, and the direction was gorgeous.  I just wish that there was better material to work with.
 

The Good Parts

What did work was strangely the plot.  No, the plotting of the episode itself was a bit of a mess, causing very choppy movement from one scene to another, but what we were given did actually flow and fit with the mythology of the season.  Go figure.  I did buy Amara’s frustration with not being able to find God and that whole theme of “Where is God?” played out beautifully, especially with the constant shots of religious symbols through the episode (great job Mr. Singer).

Amara’s alienation is something I was hoping we’d get to see and I even speculated on it a few reviews back.  From her perspective, she should be amazed how people could worship her brother when he is isn’t around to hear prayers or help people out. Yeah, get in line sister.  She’s resorted to lashing out against his worshippers in order to get his attention.  Still, he doesn’t come.  I loved the deep questions of why believe in a God that isn’t here for us and insists on letting us suffer.  The concept of faith was completely lost on Amara and no wonder.  Dean had to spell it out for her. 

“Some people find comfort in that.  Golden rule, brother’s keeper.  It is his universe.”  

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I’m also impressed with arranging the meeting of Sam and Lucifer in the Limbo section of Hell.  By Sam not going to the actual cage, the story doesn’t get bogged down with the continuity questions of “Where is Michael/Adam?”   It’s not time to address those questions right now because the episode is already loaded.  For the record, I think Adam died and is in Heaven because his vessel burned away by the holy fire in “Swan Song.”  After all, Jimmy died there too after Castiel exploded. 

The VFX of the cage was very cool, with the warding symbols and surrounding fire.  Using the “Book of the Damned” was perfect and it’s the only plausible explanation to pull off this meeting between Sam and Lucifer.  After all, that wasn’t around in season six when access to the cage literally involved an act of Death, so turns out the introduction of that book was a clever way to go in a certain direction with mythology that was bound by prior canon. 

I also really liked Crowley and Rowena in this one too.  They seemed to be a lot more comfortable together, especially when Sam and Lucifer were talking.  They’ve forgotten about killing each other right now, making the relationship easier.  I really loved Crowley playing cordial host with Lucifer, offering insincere compliments, and Luci playing along, even though it’s so clear how much they both hate each other.  So well done.  

Which brings me to the grand return of Mark Pellegrino, and it was oh so grand.  There is no greater villain in the history of this show than Lucifer, and Pellegrino deserves all the credit.  Yes, he was given the best lines in this episode, but it’s all about delivery and he was amazing.  He really scared me in his attempt to manipulate Sam, using the “word of God” to get Sam to offer himself as a vessel.  Quote of the episode goes to Luci:

“You have been working with Crowley.  You passed certifiable three off-ramps ago.”  

The Not So Good Parts

If you notice, “O’Brother Where Art Thou?” had a crap load of character interaction.  The big talk between Dean and Amara, the big showdown between Lucifer and Sam, Crowley and Rowena reuniting, and the numerous little side chats.  Sam and Rowena, Dean and Sam, Crowley and Sam, Amara and the religious nut, Amara and the Priest, Dean and the hotdog vendor (I’m kidding).  Anyway, in order to pull off this much character interaction in one episode, a very key component needs to be executed well.  DIALOGUE.  It has to be interesting.  It has to move.  It has to reveal something that entices the audience enough, but doesn’t confuse the crap out of them.  THAT is where this episode had its most spectacular failure. 

Think about it, why oh why would you allow such a dialogue/exposition heavy script to a pair of writers that notoriously struggle with words on a page?  Okay, they struggle with everything, but conversations are their absolute worst area.  Its best to just leave blank pages and let these very skilled actors use facial acting do their jobs.  Because the dialogue was so bad, the pacing immensely suffered too.  There were a lot of long boring conversations that went nowhere.  This is a midseason finale and expectation is a brisk and dramatic action thriller.  It’s especially expected when the previous hour, “Arrow,” delivered that in spades. If it wasn’t for the great actors and director, this wouldn’t have been any better than bad community theater.  

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There were also several elements that played out too cryptically, so much so that instead of being excited about what’s to come, I’m scratching my head and feeling more lost than anxious.  For one, what did Rowena do?  Did she intentionally cause the warding to fail, or did she notice something was wrong and got her and Crowley out of there pronto.  You know what would help me decide what happened one way or another?  Some better clues.  Writers usually leave them.  Maybe Rowena was laughing over what she was being told by Sam, Dean and Crowley?  Or looking at the symbols earlier?  Nope, just not working for me.  I’m only left to wildly speculate, so here’s something out of left field.  I think of all the times that Sam has treated her poorly, he had a double cross coming.  

Going back to the very poor dialogue, or the poor handling of Sam’s character in general, why would Sam be such a dick to Crowley when he’s there with him in Hell, after Crowley did this huge favor for him?  Sam’s a little more diplomatic than that and usually keeps his feelings to himself.  Second, Rowena is a very, very powerful witch.  The chains again?  He should be building allies not alienating them.  Chains and blatant mistrust isn’t going to work every single time she’s needed, which seems to be a lot.  This is the third time he’s gone to Rowena.  Oh Sam, you had to know that was going to bite you.  I think it did.  Sam is just not this arrogant.  But that’s an issue that found it’s roots last season, so perhaps Brad and Eugenie were actually following canon.  It’s poor canon, but nonetheless, it’s what we were given. 

Comments  

Sarah
# Sarah 2015-12-11 02:24
Thanks for the review. On the Sam getting Lucifer visions, I kind of liked that. It's not exactly God's style to give anyone any kind of messages. He just tends to resurrect people without explanation. Maybe you can count Chuck talking to the Winchesters as sending messages, but he wasn't saying "I am God, this is my will." Personally, I think it would be out of character for God to explicitly tell anyone what to do.

One question though: I don't know as much about the writers' comments in the fandom as you do, so maybe I misunderstood something, but didn't Lucifer explicitly say that he raped Sam in Season 7? He said "You're my bitch in every sense of the word," as well as the "The rapier wit- the wittier rape" line in "Repo Man". How can you interpret that differently?
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 01:55
Thanks for the comments! I don't know, Lucifer sending the messages was so damned predictable. I had hoped it would be more. I didn't have to be God, but man, if it was, wouldn't it have been cool? A Lucifer reveal was kind of anti-climactic.

Quote:
One question though: I don't know as much about the writers' comments in the fandom as you do, so maybe I misunderstood something, but didn't Lucifer explicitly say that he raped Sam in Season 7? He said "You're my bitch in every sense of the word," as well as the "The rapier wit- the wittier rape" line in "Repo Man". How can you interpret that differently?
Oh yes, that was the Ben Edlund episode, "Hello Cruel World" I mentioned in the review. Definitely, he did make it implied canon.

I questioned the timing of such a line, not the use. That was the cliffhanger! Really? Sam's about to get manhandled by Lucifer? He's in tears! That's scary? When Edlund did it, it was a sinister line in the middle of a scene where Lucifer was clearly trying to get into Sam's head. I'm not saying that it hasn't been implied before, just that the way it was done here just wasn't right. They made the focus on that instead of Lucifer doing something else to scare Sam like burning him or something. Repo Man was an ideal example of how to end Lucifer haunting Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-12-11 02:30
The episode had a good story but the dialogue was lacking which made it lose many points.
The Sam and Lucifer parts were the best out of all...It could have been better if not for cutting to Rowena and Crowley's convo.
The Amara and Dean Convo was marginally better than RO-Cro convo but that too was unnecessarily interjecting in the Sam-Luci convo.
I am extremely happy with Jared's performance ..brilliant.
Mark P and Jared have very good interactions and chemistry...I just hope the dialogues were more serious.
Amara's beef with god was the second best thing.Even now we have amara's side only but her anger towards god ad the scenes where she talks about this were well done.
Sam-crowley -Rowena was the next best thing.followed By amara Dean and then Row-crow.

I did not find Dean-Amara convo to be very interesting...b ut this is what I have seen recently ..the mytharc portrayal when Dean is concerned is very boring.MoC had so much potential but the story was boring...I just hope that the latter half of this season gives dean an interesting Myth arc story.

Now the thing which I am most excited is how they are going to go with the next episode...Oh Sam where art thou? How are you going to come out of this "pickle".
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 02:02
I'm just waiting for the Dean/Amara thing to go somewhere. I predict that Dean will find out what happened to Sam and use Amara to help. That sounds too easy though, doesn't it? We'll see I guess.
MollyMc
# MollyMc 2015-12-11 03:04
Quote:
Sam’s story, that just crushes my heart to pieces. By just merely finding his faith again and trusting his instincts, he has found himself in the absolute worst situation possible. In his most desperate hour he reaches out to God and it all turned out to be a trick from Lucifer? Has he not suffered enough? How can you back a story that screws your hero no matter what he does?


From the beginning, Sam's story has seemed very Job ("https://en.wi kipedia.org/w/i ndex.php?title= Job_(biblical_f igure)&oldid=69 3254436")-like to me. Why do bad things happen to really good people? Because of a wager between two Old Testament dudes. I doubt the parallel between Job and Sam is intentional but still think it would be great if Sam got a chance to confront God like Job did. Supernatural would need to use better dialogue writers than the ones for this episode though. Sam's dialogue was very, very stilted in O Brother.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 02:01
It's been a while since I've heard that Job theory, but it's a damn good one. I think it's mostly writers getting carried away because they have to come up with two cliffhangers a year now, while also having the "shocking" ending in many episodes, and it's so easy to pick on Sam. But yes, wouldn't it be great if God someday came out and told Sam that this was all a test and he passed. For eternity he'll live in peace. Of course I also remember a conversation about what would Sam and Dean do in Heaven where everything is good? They'd get bored and go hunting angels eventually.

The dialogue was awful. Too many things not said, and the rest wasn't said well at all. Ah well, I have been hopes for the next episode. Dialogue is actually Andrew Dabb's biggest strength as a writer.

Thanks for the comment!
blsedbx3
# blsedbx3 2015-12-11 03:26
Oh Alice I so agree with your assessment of the show. I find myself wondering how they got to this point . It seemed hurried and just thrown together at the last moment . The two main writers are horrible they do not make a good tag team and the other writers that do should have spoken up ... but it was a seniority thing probably. Either way in this season there has not been enough of Sam's visions to lead up to him really having to go to the cage . There have been no voices , no heavenly visitations telling him to go ...just visions and memories of him being in the cage . How does that equal "Well lets go to the cage and talk to Lucifer ... really? Lucifer and Micheal just got through skinning your soul in hell , making it into a twisted mess that even Death himself said he wouldnt wish on anyone and had to put up a barrier for Sam to function. His soul and the memories of Hell were the worst of any living soul. Remember the cage is in the very depths of the levels of hell. The lowest being the worst.
SO, to Amara and Dean.. well that is a match made in Hell. She is the first because like Death she was there before God in the Bible it says there was darkness and God created light ... I will use the Bible as well as an example . I used to be a Sunday school teacher and everyone has an oppinion on traslations , let me say this . but I found this interesting in years of study and other religious texts. God said in the commandments You shall have no other Gods before me . He himself admits that there are other Gods. HOLD THE PHONE!!!! yes so knowing that God is vengeful and wrathful ... we can assume he is also egotistical and like Amara said commanded his creation to worship him to give order. Maybe she is kind and means no harm to creation , but she does want a life and her soul mate happens to be Dean. We know he is special to God .. he was pulled from perdition, saved on the plane , given chance after chance to get things right .. I think of Dean and Sam as Job in the Bible . How much will it take to get these guys to falter . Instead they keep repeating the lesson that all mankind needs to learn and God like a puppet master uses us to play out . That lesson is what do we do for love ... love for family , friends, strangers in trouble. We are supposed to help . We arent promised rewards. So God cant do this himself he is above human emotion ... he himself is like Amara and living out scenarios through Sam and Dean. So back to Dean and Amara. I dont think she tried to suck his soul out , she in her innocence was trying to get a kiss and was waiting on him ...first kiss and all. She needs him for the future . Can she give him immortality and possibly make him a God as well if they join . Hmm. Dean knows and feels himself complete when he is around her . He feels his peace something he has never felt ... the quietness. Its his home he feels, but not thinks... Both Dean and Sam will have to battle themselves with their inner man. Soul vs. Mind. They know family comes first they , they always chose family. So God has let this major distractions come into their lives to let them wage war inside themselves and to see if they can pull themselves out . The human delima. So we will see. I think Amara went to Heaven to do battle in retaliation . She knows they will come after Dean if they know she needs him , so strike first . Same deal with Rowena .. she is giving Sam to Lucifer to keep him safe and give Lucifer a vessel in case he does get out so she can use him . Women will be taking over this plot line . They have their own agendas. Rowena knew her magic is not strong and it would fail, and she knows Lucifer ..he is the witches God and master . She wants to take over or be queen of Hell. Kill Crowley and there ya go .
Crowley, oh my he is the master of HEll and plays the game well. He is five steps ahead of everyone. You notice how he keeps telling everyone ...he hears things . Hell is filled with some of the oldest and feared enemies of mankind and God..I think this story has been played out a million times with other victims in Hell...Saul, David..Judas they were given chances and yet they were adulters , murders, liars . Crowley knows what Rowena is up too with Lucifer and he knows Sam wont say yes, he has already been through hell..he is stronger now and yes its scary but he passed that test except for the fear. Crowley is betting on the boys. He knows how to get rid of both Lucifer and Amara and it will be the boys who have to find it in themselves , by themselves this time to fight the one thing that hurts them . They have to learn how to love themselves and trust themselves enough to be alone . Crowley is hoping probably Dean will come around to him again and help him run hell or be buddies, and Sam is full of faith ...he will stay good no matter the trial of fire and torture, he already went through it .
Now for the last scene .. the writers we know are not that good and not that deep and disturbing look at the beginning of the show , poor writing and hurriedly done. When Lucifer offers top bunk or bottom ..he is literally doing that . In prison there are two bunks bolted to the walls you need to choose. When he asked or they could share , he meant simply this you could say yes and I posses you and we together in one body share a bunk. There was no rape inuendos .. somebody is pulling everyones leg and just spouting off crap to get ratings and talk.. even the looks of the actors went with the lines as simple and stated . Sam crying was the fact that he knows what lies ahead the torture of listening to Lucifer all the time , the fact that when he imagined him for so long he knew he gave in and talked to him . Sam knows he was a massive vegetable and scorched soul ... it was destroyed and he has only just had some peace for a little while and now it will start again . He also is shedding a tear to be let down by God and he is questioning himself if he can hold on. If you havent been there then I dont expect anyone to understand . This is deep ..but the battle now undelying the show is the boys fighting whats inside them so they can kill the tormentors . If they succeed, which Crowley is betting on , all will be well in the world once again. He has his bets on the right horses. The show was good FX wise , great job on Lucifers eyes and lighting ...can we make Lucifer look even more evil and sly at the same time. Bad shots of the face to face cut aways, reminded me of Weird Science the boys in the shower or car 54 . i fussed to the writers that this episode could be held off and this plot line could be carried out for another Season ..but they are determined it looks like to finish it up at the end of this one. Which is good we can speculate on where the road will lead in S12. . But this season is the boys being given more than they can handle and to see if they come out the other side ... God taking the armchair and letting his children learn as he observes and wonders at his creations. So I agree with all of your ideas except the ending ..which if your writing its tried and true "Keep it simple stupid". The writers have an underlying current under each season and unless you read under those lines you dont see it . There is pattern and maddness to these episodes . We only get to ride the roller coaster and glean off the top the initial moral delima , but under that is something else . Example last season every episode was about something vs its opposite . every one and unless you dwelled into it deep you would'nt have seen it . You had to get away from the acting . Example the con worm dry vs. wet , ,good souls vs bad , etc.etc. So there is my comment a long one all be it ..but here is hoping we get Jenny and Robert back as main writers and let them handle the story line .
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 02:12
Wow, you had a lot to say about this episode! Thanks for the comment, I love see someone come here and give such a passionate viewpoint.

Quote:
Now for the last scene .. the writers we know are not that good and not that deep and disturbing look at the beginning of the show , poor writing and hurriedly done. When Lucifer offers top bunk or bottom ..he is literally doing that . In prison there are two bunks bolted to the walls you need to choose. When he asked or they could share , he meant simply this you could say yes and I posses you and we together in one body share a bunk.
Now that makes sense to me! Great theory. I think these writers used a double entendre, but how a fan chooses to see something is what makes this fandom so damned interesting. No one views it the same way. I also agree that part of that tear was the disappointment of being let down by God. That's why I hope that God will be the one to come along and pull him out next time. I doubt that will happen, but wouldn't that be great?

I'll probably have some more clever answers to your responses tomorrow, but it is late here. I just wanted to mention how much I enjoyed reading your opinions.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-12 03:00
I think the logical reasoning behind Sam's conclusion that God wanted him to go to Lucifer came from Death. He was the one who told the brothers about the terrible battle between God, his arc angels and the Darkness. Right now the only two arc angels left are Lucifer and Michael. I'm betting that Sam and Dean would like to know what they had to do to defeat the Darkness or lock her up or whatever God did to her.
Since Sam's visions started after he prayed and they were of the cage I suppose that is why he jumped to that conclusion. The only vision that Sam had that wasn't in the cage was the one with Not-John. That one I don't think came from Lucifer. I think it came from someone else.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 23:19
Quote:
God taking the armchair and letting his children learn as he observes and wonders at his creations. So I agree with all of your ideas except the ending ..which if your writing its tried and true "Keep it simple stupid". The writers have an underlying current under each season and unless you read under those lines you dont see it . There is pattern and maddness to these episodes . We only get to ride the roller coaster and glean off the top the initial moral delima , but under that is something else . Example last season every episode was about something vs its opposite . every one and unless you dwelled into it deep you would'nt have seen it . You had to get away from the acting . Example the con worm dry vs. wet , ,good souls vs bad , etc.etc. So there is my comment a long one all be it ..but here is hoping we get Jenny and Robert back as main writers and let them handle the story line .
You know, your comment here reminded me of one of my favorite all time episodes ever aired on television. It was a St. Elsewhere episode called "After Life." Dr. Fiscus (Howie Mandel when he actually had hair), is randomly gunned down in the emergency room by a woman who was aiming for her cheating husband and got just about everyone else except him. Bullet right through the heart. He was killed instantly. So we got to see his journey in the After Life through Purgatory, Hell, and Heaven. At each stop it was a glimpse of how each person he ran into, people he knew through the hospital, earned their fates. He had so many questions about what the plan was, so eventually he managed a meeting with God in Heaven. God looked exactly like him. "I made you in my image."

So he asked the question, "Why now, why did I die?" God told him he only created possibilities. Free will of man is why things happen. He sets up something, turns his head, and it goes a different way. There is no plan. He didn't create the gun that ended his life, man did. He also didn't create the medical technology that his friends were using to save his life (which they did at the end). So the message was, man controls his destiny. It can be brutal, but it can be miraculous as well. If you watch the next episode, after Dr. Fiscus is brought back from he dead, he's so depressed from the whole thing because knowing that everything is random wasn't much of a comfort. Eventually he got over it.

So yeah, I do wonder, if Sam and Dean were to meet God, would they get the same answer? Does this mean Dean was always right, he is in control of his own destiny? Is that the life Amara threatens to take away? There are many possibilities as to where this could go. Fingers crossed it ends up in the hands of the better writers.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-11 04:13
Please don't take this wrong but your dislike in regards to the show "going there"? Why are you surprised considering the fact that they clearly if not touched on it, seriously insinuated that Dean suffered the same under Alastair and Company? It's Hell, it's to be expected. If they trivialized to it in the past with Dean's sojourn in Hell wouldn't they now? This sensitivity in regards to it being brought up? It's a horror show. Supernatural has frequently visited situations that are uncomfortable. Social responsibility should be a consideration but to the extent that a show can't tell the story they want, which has passed muster with the censors, just because someone, somewhere might be uncomfortable or offended? Did I mention its a horror show? It's supposed to make you uncomfortable. Am I sounding a little insensitive? Perhaps. But let me give you my example. AHS. Enough said. I dont watch it now. It's shock for shocks sake. It touches on a lot of things that are offensive and downright disgusting. When I watched it, for the short time I did, I recognized the possibility that there would be scenes or situations that I might personally find uncomfortable or disturbing but understood that if I liked the show that it was just something I would have to either accept or stop watching. I stopped watching.

The dialogue. God the dialogue! The pacing!!! The stupidly written angels attack Amara scene preceded by the mind numbingly boring angelic meeting scene. Typical Nep Duo. For the love of everything holy, you would think that they would recognize the fact that fandom considers these their signature/modus operandi/standa rd operating procedure as a bad thing. Bad. How many scripts have they written to date? You'd think that they would improve just thru the act of sheer repetition! WHY do they give them important episodes. Okay. I feel better. I did like the episode for the most part tho. I hope that they kick the Dean/Amara storyline up several notches. Enough with the mystery, let's see some answers/action. And by action I don't mean sex with conception either. And general sex for sexs sake between them really makes little sense either.

Yes there was not just a train whistle but sirens in a few different scenes. Our beloved train sound has not left us yet.
nicknicknicknick
# nicknicknicknick 2015-12-11 05:15
I, too, am a bit confused by your 'going there' issue, Alice, respectfully. I was raised Catholic, and I was more disturbed by the notions of God's "sister" (a concept I actually don't have any issue with, since I recognize it's fiction) smiting a bunch of believers - the cold open was one of the more disturbing scenes SPN has done lately, followed by the slaughter in the church which obviously is meant to show how even the 'house of God' is not safe from a force such as Amara. I was disturbed, yes, that the show 'went there', but is it enough to make me stop watching? No. To some extent, it's even fascinating - how far can they go before they really, truly offend me?

I guess my point is that different people will take offense at different things, and some issues are more delicate to some than to others - so the whole aspect of 'rape' in a horror show like SPN doesn't bother me, much like I can accept that SPN plays with Judeo-Christian theology the way it does, as difficult as this episode was to watch at points.

Nevertheless, I've never been one to overly analyze our show, so I found it a mostly entertaining and unnerving hour. :) Peace!
nicknicknicknick
# nicknicknicknick 2015-12-11 05:18
Just wanted to add: does anyone know if they actually filmed the church scenes *in* a church or on a soundstage? because if it were the former, that would make it even *more* disturbing for yours truly, since a church is meant to be a holy place, fiction or not. But, y'know, not a dealbreaker for me - not by a long shot.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-12 01:06
Probably most likely an abandoned church.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 02:13
They film it in a church in downtown Vancouver. It's been used in a lot of TV and films.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 23:36
Quote:
Please don't take this wrong but your dislike in regards to the show "going there"? Why are you surprised considering the fact that they clearly if not touched on it, seriously insinuated that Dean suffered the same under Alastair and Company? It's Hell, it's to be expected. If they trivialized to it in the past with Dean's sojourn in Hell wouldn't they now? This sensitivity in regards to it being brought up? It's a horror show. Supernatural has frequently visited situations that are uncomfortable.


No, I don't think that was my point at all actually. There are horrors. They have always suffered in horrible situations. But what I was saying that they were making potential rape a joke, all while Sam was standing there in tears, and that ended up being the cliffhanger! Very inappropriate. Remember the ending to "Repo Man?" Now THAT was a real closing horrible, scary moment. I wasn't uncomfortable. I was slightly (and I do mean slightly) offended, and definitely put off by how clueless the writers were for going that way.

I think a major problem with the Nep Duo is they come from another age of TV writing. When fans weren't so engaged in the episodes and continuity and a lot of scripts were throw away filler. I don't know if you have seen TV shows from the 70's and numerous ones from the 80's, but they didn't put a lot of quality into TV back then. NBC was the first to bring quality shows to TV in the early 80's and that eventually became the standard. When I see a lot of the shows Brad and Eugenie wrote on, they were mostly shows you would watch for background noise while doing other things around the house. Procedurals and fluff programs. Dialogue is a rough art and something newer writers have to be very, very skilled with in order to earn jobs. The standard for young writers breaking into the business is super tough! Other way to earn jobs is by having connections, and that's how older writers do it. So that explains that! They probably also read my criticisms and go, "Yeah, well we have long careers in TV writing and you don't!" It's a fair point. :)
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 04:20
Alice I agree with a very long sighhhhhhhhh Why ohhh Why would the boys so blantantly make the same mistakes over & over again. I was expecting so much more in this episode. Castiel could have played a pivitol roll in this episode expecially with helping Sam I'm sure Cas could have checked Sam's visions done some snooping around. And Dean that conversation with Amara was going nowhere it achieved nothing I even think the actress looked a little bit bewildered. Dean walking around looking shell shocked for 14 more episodes will be disappointing Sam just get Him out. Before he has a mental breakdown
All I can hold onto is Jarred's interview where he said Ep 9 & Ep 10 are his favourites with so many plot twists and turns :o:o:o PS I didn't like the bunk buddy talk either / wrong place wrong time
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-11 09:44
Jen, you read my mind. I'm not an extreme Castiel fan, but I like him and since they keep bringing Misha back, I expect him to be in the episodes that make sense for him to be there. This was one of those where he was just blatantly missing. Why would they have attempted any of the things they were doing without consulting their inside man, or for that matter, why would Sam go to hell with Crowley and Rowena and not at least have Castiel for backup since he didn't have Dean? Stupid.

And I completely agree with you about Dean. I'm finding this whole situation really annoying. I mean, I hated the MOC storyline and I'm glad that Dean is okay and he's more Dean-like, but watching him be a zombie around this chick is not fun either. I will say that I asked my husband, who is a casual viewer, what he thought was going on with Dean and why he isn't telling Sam and he said that he thinks he's ashamed of how she makes him feel. She keeps saying things about bliss and their bond, and he thinks Dean doesn't like the fact that she makes him feel good. He actually said, "Dean doesn't like feeling good." Lol, I thought that was funny.

And Alice hit it on the nail with Sam. There are only so many blows to your self esteem that you can take. I am always amazed at his resilience, but coming back from this one will be super human. I'm hoping that maybe Lucifer is lying to him, but this show doesn't usually treat the boys that kindly. My fear is that after this, Sam will be so afraid to trust himself that he'll just go back to season 5 all over again. And I won't even talk about some of the stuff I've seen posted from "haters" who think Sam deserves this. I would hesitate to even call those people "fans". It's like saying Dean deserved to be a demon because he was stupid enough to take on the MOC and fight Metatron on his own. I'm betting all of those people who were going on about poor Dean becoming his own worst nightmare would be apoplectic over that.

I'm still loving this season, though. Do we know who wrote the next one?
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-12-11 09:56
Andrew Dabb. The one who wrote Form and void. Now this writer I am looking forward to! :D
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-12 01:07
Dabb has got a spotty track record when it comes to canon. He's the one that made reapers angels, as well the whole Jimmy in Heaven non-sense.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 23:43
He has been inconsistent. It's funny, Andrew Dabb has written some really great episodes, but many of his episodes are on my "worst ever" list. He wrote my top two worst ever, "Hammer of the Gods" and "Season Seven: Time For A Wedding." However, I think they have a real good groove going this season and a direction, so I'm hopeful the next ep will deliver.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-11 17:19
That's interesting that your husband picked up on that. I read an interview where Jensen said he played the scene where Sam burst into the room and saw him just standing there with Amara (you know, instead of killing her as planned) as Dean feeling ashamed. Ashamed and also confused over what this connection is. Now with your husbands insight of Dean's further shame because Amara makes him feel good and that he doesn't like the fact that it's she that makes him feel that way? Makes things even more complex. Tell hubby we all said "Good job"!
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 20:21
Thanks Sylvia I reckon your husband may have a point - about Dean feeling good, although his facial expressions appear to be more confused and maybe a little afraid ? I still don't understand how he could ignore his brother's phone call, just for her. He may not have changed Sam's situation but at least he would have been there. I'm all for the Boys having some sort of female relationship, but as MANY and there is alot of fans appear to be saying PLEASE move this along already or end it Its not challengeing Jenson as a actor and its knda boring. I do remember various interviews with SPN cast and writers, They all crypticly say that this bond with Amara, will effect the Boys future !!! Take from that what you will

May I also throw out a thought here. We havn't yet seen any reprucussions for Dean killing Death My thought --

Amara tried to suck Dean's soul that was obvious - her expression was bewilderment ( then a kiss instead) We know little about Death except he was the boss of the rippers.
What if by killing Death Dean took on some sort of power or protection from Death and his soul was protected in some way. Do you understand what I'm sorta saying ????
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-13 09:12
I get your drift, but wouldn't that be something? Not only is Dean connected to the Darkness, but he's got Death's mojo too? Wow talk about protection. Dean the omnipotent. He could go on quite the power trip. Can you imagine if Dean found out he couldn't die? Monsters beware! Dean is coming for you.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-12-11 05:31
Wonderful review Alice. I always look forward to your input :D

Quote:
Sam’s story, that just crushes my heart to pieces. By just merely finding his faith again and trusting his instincts, he has found himself in the absolute worst situation possible. In his most desperate hour he reaches out to God and it all turned out to be a trick from Lucifer? Has he not suffered enough? How can you back a story that screws your hero no matter what he does? What I don’t get is why did they even go there and have him revisit the cage? We all knew that being stuck in a cage with Lucifer was the likely cliffhanger, and that Lucifer would claim to be sending him all those visions instead of God. That was so predictable, it’s rather disappointing to see it happen.


Whats a season without suffering on this show? This show knocks the boys down every season! I am one of those who would be disappointed if all the visions were from god. The thought of god giving Sam clear indications where he should go seems a bit odd. The last time god helped was getting them on the plane and now he's giving Sam a lot of visual clues? Not buying it. I think god is weakened and can't intervene often. That and maybe he's trying to be as neutral as possible?

Look on the bright side Alice, we have a good writer next episode no?

Quote:
I'm sure Cas could have checked Sam's visions done some snooping around.
I guess Cas being able to see what he saw is possible but what would he do with that info? Who would know anything? Only Sam, Lucifer, Micheal and possibly god knew what happened in the cage.

Quote:
WHY do they give them important episodes.
Why are they still there? Hasn't anyone complained? Haven't the writers, past and current show runners realised what a terrible writing team they are? I swear if there's a S12 and this duo are kicked off I'm throwing a party.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-11 17:22
There would be celebrations in the streets worldwide! ;)
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-12 01:14
I don't know, you ever think that they are, you know, actually liked by the people they work with? And that their episodes actually do pretty good in the rating.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 14:08
It's not my desire to attack Brad and Eugenie as people. I know the other writers get along with them fine and I've heard some nice things about them. I'm here to only judge their writing skills and it's very sub-par with most TV writers, especially sci-fi.
Shante
# Shante 2015-12-11 06:53
i'd like to change my grade from B- to a C after reading this
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-11 07:57
Great review, Alice. My grade on this episode improved a bit upon rewatch but only went from a D to a C-. These two writers are truly awful; the premise of this episode was great and could have been outstanding in the hands of a better writer(s).

The universe doesn't like Sam Winchester and I'm not sure how he gets out of this mess without becoming a drooling and/or babbling and/or catatonic mess. Unlike his intentions in S4, Sam's intentions were good this time around. Unless by some miracle he has a backup plan up his sleeves (and yes, archangels can be slowed down with holy oil and other things). On the bright side, at least he got laid a few episodes ago.

Still not sure about Dean's connection/link to Amara; this episode provided few answers and more questions. Wasn't sure if Amara couldn't consume Dean's soul, or changed her mind, or maybe consuming his soul is the final step in them "becoming one".

So, with Sam's confidence and faith shaken to its core, and with Dean compromised by his link to Amara, I'm not sure what the Winchesters can do. They sure could have used Castiel this episode.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 23:48
Oh, Castiel? You mean this guy? (Apologies for the language, not my photo).
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-11 08:18
Alice, I felt the same way you did about much of the ep, but count me among those who are not outraged by the rape insinuation. I don't recall it being implied that Dean was raped in hell, but between the brothers they were flayed repeatedly, burned, had meat hooks in them and had that horrible looking eyeball torture, among other things. All of those torments were equally as horrible as rape IMO.

I also think/hope that we will not see a Sam who breaks from this, or else the character development and growth we have seen in him this year will be meaningless. After Sully expressed his faith and belief in Sam and in Sam's strength, I think Sam will draw upon that and his extreme smarts and somehow defeat or outwit Lucifer in a battle of wills and wits. He will find the strength to deal with this latest horror. He beat Lucy once and he can do it again. How awesome a plot turn that will be! It is time for a Swan Song moment when one or both brothers demonstrates why they are indeed the only ones who can beat the Darkness. And that's my position until the show says otherwise, which will probably happen in the next ep.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 23:52
Quote:
Alice, I felt the same way you did about much of the ep, but count me among those who are not outraged by the rape insinuation. I don't recall it being implied that Dean was raped in hell, but between the brothers they were flayed repeatedly, burned, had meat hooks in them and had that horrible looking eyeball torture, among other things. All of those torments were equally as horrible as rape IMO.
I definitely don't think after all Sam and Dean have been through, rape would be the worst thing they've ever experienced. I wasn't talking about Sam and Dean. I was talking about those in real life that have gone through such horrors and see it joked about like this. Did it offend me a lot? No. Was it horribly insensitive? Yes.
jane
# jane 2015-12-11 09:23
Well, I really liked this episode. I was really stocked to my seat wondering what was would go wrong with Sam's situation. And I liked the anxious feeling that I haven't feel in so long watching the show. Wasn't so into the Dean/Amara scenes but the Sam/Lucifer meeting was so good, it was alright. I was not bothered ever by the insinuation of rape because it was already canon since season 7. But as I read in others comments, it has never been said for Dean, he was tortured but not raped. It's bad enough.
And it was such improvement from last season.
I guess I decided to just enjoy the show for what it is and not over analyse it. Besides english is not my maternel language so I may have not been so much bothered by the dialogues.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 00:18
I envy you! I really wish I could sit back and enjoy this show at face value. I found the show at the very beginning of season three. I remember binge watching seasons one and two, and it was so different! I could see the forest from the trees and just enjoy it. But then halfway through season three I became a blogger for the show, writing for Blogcritics, and suddenly I was finding myself having to look deeper at what we were given, writing critical reviews. Its been that way ever since. I don't think I could even watch an episode for the pure joy of entertainment at this point. It's very easy to do when you're new to the show, but when you have a history, it's a whole different game. It's funny too, because episodes that I criticized back then are pure gold now compared to the stuff we've gotten in the last six seasons. I've learned to lower my standards! They're probably not low enough. :) But you are so right, season 11 is the strongest season we've had in a very long time (S5 in terms of the first half of the season).

Glad you enjoyed it!
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-11 09:35
I honestly am not sure how I feel about this episode. Upon a rewatch, I found it to be less pivoting and dynamic. I don't mind the story and the return of Lucifer and the interjection of God having relatives is all very fascinating and intriguing to me. But the episode, by itself failed in a few ways because it all seemed lackluster. I'm not sure how else to describe it. Usually with two-parters, the first half is a build up to something, or things come full circle somewhere and we are left with a cliffhanger about one aspect of it. But, with this episode, there felt like no build up. It felt like it just concluded. And yes, there's a cliffhanger, but there's like a hundred cliffhangers! So, having that many takes away from the significance of each of them.

We are left with Sam in the cage.... Rowena leading Crowley down a set of stairs acting as if she was waiting for the right moment to make a move, but what move?.... The angels smiting Amara or did they?.... Is Amara in heaven now??..... Dean back in a park still under her influence or isn't he??....

It just feels like a bunch of lego blocks thrown on the floor with no real foundation to build off of. The events were a little two disconnected. Does Lucifer even care about Amara? Does Amara even know Lucifer is in a cage?! Does she care? What is the connection/rela tionship/impact of these two entities with each other? Is this just like a "double your villains, double your pain" kind of thing or what? lol. I feel like if Amara had mentioned Lucifer before or if Lucifer maybe made it more clear in that cage what his history is with Amara, then I would be more satisfied - then this all would have been a build up to something or a climax to something built. But right now, it just all feels like an excuse to bring Lucifer back into the fold. I can't see any substantial plot line or story arc that would require Lucifer (and not Michael, since he is more powerful, no???) to be a part of the story now.

I'm actually very hopeful that we will get answers in January and things will come together.

One thing I feel like I learned about Amara in this episode, is that she's not hell bent on gaining power over the world. She doesn't seem that interested in destroying it either. Right now, at least, her only issue is with her brother, God. She's killing people only in the hopes of gaining his attention. I think she'll kill the whole planet if she has to, and not care, but only if she has to. Her motives aren't to destroy, destroy, destroy. If God made an appearance when she tried praying, she would have taken things up with him then and there. She's only killing to get his attention. But death will never get God's attention because he knows that when people die, they go to heaven so, from his perspective, death isn't 'bad'. He's an eternal celestial being, of course he'll have a different viewpoint on death than we would. That's how I see it anyways.

So, with that in mind, at this point, i'm just waiting for Amara to go away. She's only a threat to humans and earth by default. She has no motives towards us. I guess I just don't find the character or the concept of her as interesting as I could. I have no problem with her if wants to fight with God. She's entitled. She wants to kill us to get to him, well then we gotta try to stop her. But her issues and her story are just not 'our' story, so I just really don't care. lol.
jane
# jane 2015-12-11 10:25
They sure need to work more on Amara. If God had to banish her to create earth, her being on earth should means its destruction. They started it in the first episode with the darkness that contaminated everyone around but it's suddenly gone and they seem to concentrate more on god's sister that the darkness. I am not sure if i am clear in my explanations. One thing is sure is that apart from demons and Lucifer, the show has a hard time to bring other big bad.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-11 12:51
Agreed. I understand that we are learning about her through the characters. And as they learn, we learn, but we still know too little. She needs more backstory. Apparently all the angels thought she wasn't real, just a scary bedtime story. Well, I wanna know exactly *what* that bedtime story was! lol. I'm definitely curious about her, but if her only intention is to duke things out with her brother and we just happen to be caught in the middle, then the story just becomes a little less interesting to me. So, I hope they give her some more motives or intent or purpose. They are tying her to Lucifer now, but we still don't know how that's going to play out. We don't even know IF there even IS a connection or if Lucifer is just taking advantage of the opportunity to get himself out of the cage in hell. The season has been great so far and the build up has been good, but sadly it falls short when thinking specifically of Amara and her purpose and endgame.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-11 10:44
I didn't have the same issues with Sam's characterizatio n in this episode (the musical score for me was the worst part). I thought it was plausible that he and Dean would go to the only people that could help them communicate with Lucifer. I also thought that Sam's hatred of Crowley and Rowena was in character as well. They may be reluctant allies but that doesn't mean Sam has to like it.

The scenes between Mark P and Jared were riveting. Definitely the high light of the episode. Sam's terror and Lucifer's snark...I really missed the snark. I also didn't have any issue with Lucifer's remark about being "bunk buddies". Everyone was thinking of it anyway. That final look on Sam's face as he realized that he had been tricked by Lucifer again and that God had abandoned him just killed me. Hopefully he gets rescued soon.

I have a theory on Sam's visions. All of Sam's visions except for one was of him in the cage. All of the cage visions happened when Dean wasn't near by. The only vision that Sam had that wasn't in the cage was in the Impala with Dean. And that vision had a clear message and it wasn't going to Lucifer. I think someone else (God, Gabriel whoever) is talking to Sam too. It will take both "brothers" to defeat the Darkness, not Michael or Lucifer or demons or angels. I hope Sam gets another vision that helps him realize that.

Unfortunately Sam getting stuck in the cage was kind of telegraphed before the episode but I am hoping our payoff will be one epic hug when Dean gets him back out.

The Amara/Dean story line is going nowhere. How many more times are we going to see Amara whining about her lot and Dean staring at her (in a trance? enthralled? confused? I can't ever tell)? Enough already. Why is she bonded to Dean who no longer bears the Mark? Why not Lucifer who presumably does (and has beef with God)? Wouldn't she be able to sense Lucifer? Wouldn't she have the power to release him? I thought Amara kind of turned into more of a petulant teenager as an adult than she was as a teen. So she decides to break Gods toys? I get she wants to talk to God but I thought she read all about human suffering already and knew God doesn't care about human carnage or angels for that matter. Why would she think killing a few people would get his attention. I don't know I can't figure out what she wants, create a world of Stepford people or a M&G with her brother or destroy the planet...who knows. I'm beginning to not care just get on with it.

On second watch I think the episode works better if you don't dissect it too much. Like I said my biggest issue was with the melodramatic score. So unlike Supernatural. Sam's story this season is the most interesting. I wish Dean's story would start to come together as well. Cas? Yeah best not to dissect it too much.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-11 12:57
Quote:
The Amara/Dean story line is going nowhere. How many more times are we going to see Amara whining about her lot and Dean staring at her (in a trance? enthralled? confused? I can't ever tell)? Enough already. Why is she bonded to Dean who no longer bears the Mark? Why not Lucifer who presumably does (and has beef with God)? Wouldn't she be able to sense Lucifer? Wouldn't she have the power to release him? I thought Amara kind of turned into more of a petulant teenager as an adult than she was as a teen. So she decides to break Gods toys? I get she wants to talk to God but I thought she read all about human suffering already and knew God doesn't care about human carnage or angels for that matter. Why would she think killing a few people would get his attention. I don't know I can't figure out what she wants, create a world of Stepford people or a M&G with her brother or

destroy the planet...who knows. I'm beginning to not care just get on with it.
Well stated and I agree. She is portrayed as the Darkness that has universe wide impact, equal to God and is a Goddess herself and is portrayed as a brat who wants to bond with Dean Winchester. I am hoping Amara is revised in the hands of other writers.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 00:23
I could easily not dissect it too much if it was a throwaway filler episode, like episode 5 or 16. But it was the midseason finale! There are expectations on those.

I'm speculating that since the Sam story took front and center the first half of the season, the Dean story will take front and center the second half. That does seem to be the MO for a while now. Half on one brother, half on another. I don't like it, but that's what's been happening.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-14 04:26
I just meant for me (because I am not reviewing the episode) it's best not to dissect it. Less gray hairs.

I hope Sam doesn't disappear in the second half. I don't think that Dean has disappeared in the first half just that whatever his story is right now seems to be stalled.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-14 07:43
I really hope that Sam doesn't take a back seat in the second half... since when is nine episodes half of a 23 episode season? So, 9 for Sam and 14 for Dean? Yeah, that sounds about right given the way this show has gone lately.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-14 08:09
Agreed, E. Moreover, I think it's been years since we saw a half season that focused on Sam. At best, he's had an equally significant story line as Dean. Since the second half of S9 there has been no focus on Sam. He had no story in S 10 other than the first couple of eps and the last 6 or so, when he finally got a story, but even then there was at least as great a focus on Dean. This season I'm loving Sam's plot line, but Dean has had an equally important story, it's just that Sam's story has been much more interesting so far so maybe it seems like the focus is on him. But in terms of screen time and significance of the events, the story has been split equally between the brothers. The only ep that has actually had Sam as the primary focus is Just My Imagination. It is the first ep in years IMO in which Sam was front and center and Dean was in the background. I honestly was shocked while I was watching it, because it's been a very, very, VERY long time since the focus of an ep was almost exclusively on Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-14 08:46
I too hope that we are not moving onto Dean's "half" of the season because Dean's stories tend to totally sideline Sam who suddenly can't express ANY POV and becomes pretty wallpaper who gets knocked out a lot. Even when Sam has "half" a season it becomes Sam/Gadreel having half a season. OTOH if they decide to split it evenly that means we might get another 3 episodes of Claire's story, or Rowena's story and I don't want that either.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-14 09:35
Yes, for some reason, when they are focused on Dean, which has been most of the time in the last several years, they can't seem to manage writing for Sam. I sometimes wondering if it's editing or writing. I wonder if Jared films so much more for Sam and then we never see it because they edit out to focus the story another way or maybe the editor just doesn't like Sam. I can think of at least two deleted bluray scenes that were specifically Sam POV dialogue with a side character that were edited out. The one where they first met their Grandfather Henry was particularly important because it made sense that he would have actually talked to him after Dean left the room.

I'm slightly more optimistic this year because they've done such a good job of balancing it so far, but I keep waiting for the rug to be pulled out.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-14 11:19
Quote:
OTOH if they decide to split it evenly that means we might get another 3 episodes of Claire's story, or Rowena's story and I don't want that either.
PLEASE, do not even SAY this out loud!!!!!!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-11 11:51
I would have tossed this entire script in the shredder, fired the writers and started over. You articulated my biggest disappointment: Quote:
By just merely finding his faith again and trusting his instincts, he has found himself in the absolute worst situation possible. In his most desperate hour he reaches out to God and it all turned out to be a trick from Lucifer? Has he not suffered enough? How can you back a story that screws your hero no matter what he does? What I don’t get is why did they even go there and have him revisit the cage?
. If all we are left with is Sam being manipulated by and locked in the cage with Lucifer then the story is a mere, tedious redundant reliving of past horror and it destroys Sam's carefully and strongly built character development and growth this season of strength, facing fear, faith, accepting his path of hunter, and his personal meaning of being a hero. This episode was particularly hard to swallow after last week's encounter with Sully. I am holding out the hope that Sam's faith in God, in himself, in his relationship with Dean and as a Winchester he l does not falter and he rises out of this nightmare and further along this path of only the Winchester's can defeat the Darkness. I think Lucifer is just capitalizing on the info that Sam gave him about messages from God and taking credit so to destroy Sam's morale. I am also still holding out for the idea that God still had a hand in the messages to Sam; particularly the visit from young Dad. I don't think Lucifer would have delivered that particular message in light of his current reaction and dialogue with Sam.
I am not outraged by the rape insinuation because it is the type of insinuation/ subtext that SPN is noted for. The bunk buddies comment was just a means of terrifying Sam in realizing he is trapped with Lucifer and all the horrors, torture, atrocities that come with it. I do not think it meant that Lucifer was just gunning for violent rape/sex. Also others such as Dean, Castiel have used the phrase you are my bitch or your his bitch to connote general power and control over another and not rape. For the record, I always thought that the storylines of Sam and Dean being tortured in hell, hung on meat hooks, ripped to pieces and being put back together was the least credible aspect of their history, and destroyed their basic humanity because no human being could function after such an experience. This plot of Sam returning to the cage has been in the making since Swan Song and Sam's build-up of this season. It should have been the dynamic main event in this episode, the intense focus, a circling of David and Goliath. I despised the fact that Dean was not there, or on his way or had a damn good reason for his absence. It was out of character. Dean did not want Sam to go on this mission and Sam had just told Dean he was unsure he was ready. Whenever these two write a script characters are separated or killed for contrived reasons and this script is no different. Dean apparently did not take Sam's call during such a crucial time because he was distracted by Amara. This is not credible because he later without any indication of why, he manages to break his trance-like state to stab Amara. I also thought the presence and comic like dialogue of Rowena and Crowley (Rowena's lust and motherhood comments ) on the side lines as spectators to the cage drama was distracting and belittling to the intensity and magnitude of this life altering event in Sam's journey.
In this episode Dean's relationship/ connection to the Darkness just got as confusing and inconsistent as the MOC/ Demon Dean story. Can Dean control himself around Amara or Not? Dean could not take a crucial call from his brother but he can stab her. I thought the stabbing was not credible because we had no reason to believe or no groundwork to indicate Dean was capable of doing it. We were led to believe Dean was highly protective of Amara and in their last meeting his inability to harm her was only broken when she took a shot at Sam. So the whole need to protect Amara when out the window.
I am hoping that we do get answers to other questions: Did Amara choose to not consume Dean's soul or was not able to do it? If the latter, what makes Dean so special ? What is the nature of their connection because it certainly took a step away from the innocent protective mode to a reciprocated kiss. Why would a God want to have some type of union with a mere mortal (yeah besides the fact he is Dean Winchester). She also said she cannot be resisted. Does this apply to only Dean or others? If this is true, she certainly takes away FREE WILL.
Also, it would be out of character for Sam to allow Dean to confront Amara on his own after he learned from Crowley that Amara has a thing for Dean.
I think it was odd and not credible that Castiel was not present , consulted or even mentioned in this pivotal episode.
In regard to Amara, these two writers turned her into a what NJSPNFAN called a petulant brat; screaming, sarcastic, petty. I just wish she would have gone about her search and wrath for her brother in a more intelligent, menacing purposeful manner.
Quote:
What did Amara mean when she said, “I was the beginning, I will be the end.”
She means that she is GOD just the female Dark version. God in the real world is referred to the ALPHA and Omega, the beginning and the end, always was and always will be.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-11 12:46
Quote:
She means that she is GOD just the female Dark version. God in the real world is referred to the ALPHA and Omega, the beginning and the end, always was and always will be.
Ya know, I actually found her meaning to be far more literal. When Amara said "I was the beginning, I will be the end", I immediately thought of the Big Bang. In theory, before that happened, there was nothing but darkness (scientists call it Dark Matter lol). And then, because of a fluke actually, the Big Bang happened and out came all of the light, literally. And, in the end, as the more popular theories go, we will all come back together into a single point from when we began, so it'll all be Dark again. That's the real world, to me.

And, I guess, I'm taking the mythology they are writing for the show this season to be just as literal. In the beginning, there was Darkness (God's sister). God had to "destroy her" (aka the Big Bang which was a fairly big explosion, lol) to create the Universe, not just earth. At least, that's what I remember them saying in the beginning episodes of this season. And, in the end, when/if the Universe ends, there will be Darkness again.

My apologies if that was all too literal and unnecessarily scientific, but I'm just saying that is what came to my mind when she spoke. I don't think she thinks of herself as God or even as a God. I don't think she has any interest in expressing or demonstrating of even using her power. She's just pissed at her brother and we are just stuck in the middle of that sibling rivalry. I think she is exactly as powerful as God, but God's powers are designed to 'create' while hers are designed to 'destroy'. Just thoughts.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-11 13:06
Quote:
I don't think she thinks of herself as God or even as a God
I think she does. When she said she consumes souls so they can live eternally in her that implies she is God. i think your other thoughts that she is the beginning and the end are compatible with a concept of God. Also, her brother God did not destroy her, he just locked her up.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-11 20:20
I guess I really just don't understand her well enough to really judge her. What you pointed out is correct. She had indeed demonstrated some godlike qualities and behaviors. I only meant to imply that they seem secondary to her, at least right now. Her obsession with her brother seems to be her only interest at the moment.

I also never meant to imply that God destroyed her. They said that rvhad to "sacrifice" her, at the beginning of the season from what I remember, so whatever that means. I really don't even understand her "prison".

Was she locked away inside the mark?! So when the mark was destroyed, she was freed. So then as long as there was someone on the planet that bore the mark, she was imprisoned, right? So, Cain was like her warden for all those years?!? Just confusing to me. lol
Mallena
# Mallena 2015-12-11 18:39
I have always had a hard time believing that Dean could function as a human being after 40 years of hell. Sam for 100 years. Remember shell shocked veterans of WW1? Many of them never got over it. My theory is that Sam and Dean did not go through it minute by minute, but remembered it afterward which is a little better. Kind of like childbirth. Now that hurts. I don't think Lucifer means actual rape. I think he means it metaphorically. When I tell someone that they are screwed, I don't mean anything besides trying to be funny. Sam fell into the pit with an actual body, but Luci was an angel. Aren't they junkless? That was what they said in "Dogma". Alan Rickman, so funny. "Dogma" is a Kevin Smith movie if anyone needs a reference. I also think Adam's body was destroyed, and then Sam's body was taken away by Castiel. So no bodies to assault.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-11 20:16
Unfortunately angels and humans can produce a Nephilim as we found out in Clip Show (who knew).
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 00:27
Quote:
If all we are left with is Sam being manipulated by and locked in the cage with Lucifer then the story is a mere, tedious redundant reliving of past horror and it destroys Sam's carefully and strongly built character development and growth this season of strength, facing fear, faith, accepting his path of hunter, and his personal meaning of being a hero. This episode was particularly hard to swallow after last week's encounter with Sully. I am holding out the hope that Sam's faith in God, in himself, in his relationship with Dean and as a Winchester he l does not falter and he rises out of this nightmare and further along this path of only the Winchester's can defeat the Darkness. I think Lucifer is just capitalizing on the info that Sam gave him about messages from God and taking credit so to destroy Sam's morale. I am also still holding out for the idea that God still had a hand in the messages to Sam; particularly the visit from young Dad. I don't think Lucifer would have delivered that particular message in light of his current reaction and dialogue with Sam.
Bravo. I couldn't have said it any better. Heck, I didn't!
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-11 13:01
Quote:
Sam’s story, that just crushes my heart to pieces. By just merely finding his faith again and trusting his instincts, he has found himself in the absolute worst situation possible. In his most desperate hour he reaches out to God and it all turned out to be a trick from Lucifer? Has he not suffered enough? How can you back a story that screws your hero no matter what he does?
Quote:
I’m sure there’s enough Sam haters out there to say he had this coming, but this shouldn’t happen to anyone no matter what they’ve done. He saved the world, remember? He fought for his brother and doomed the world, and now in hopes of saving the world he’s been duped into dooming himself. It really sucks.

Thinking further, if Sam gets out of this, how can this not take the fight out of him? There’s absolutely nothing at this point for him other than curl up in the bunker and never come out. He’s screwed no matter what he does. This should be the blow to his confidence that finally pushes him into an intense mental and emotional breakdown.
This is exactly what I got from this episode, I thought it was just me. I am so done with all of the burdens of the show being placed on Sam and then whatever decision he makes he gets screwed. How can he continue to function? And does it matter because the show never follows up on what it does to Sam, it just pretends like it is starting anew. Like Sam is stuck in groundhog day in hell.

Where is the entertainment value in that? Well it is entertaining watching Dean getting kissed I suppose ... I said to someone the other day that they write as if all Deangirls are hedonists and all Samgirls are living out their masochism by having an emotional connection to Sam. So, Sam cannot die without permission, he is not allowed make his own decisions, any decisions he makes will screw him further and he will be blamed endlessly for them, and when he dies he will be sent to the void (actually at this stage that must seem like a promise more than a threat).
Good job show, this is really fun and enjoyable way to produce entertainment. *applause*

Having said that everyone did a really good job of their acting roles in the show (including Ruthie Connell who, I think, rocks). Jared is really getting a chance to prove what an emotionally connected actor he is and how great he is at pulling off the emotions no matter what storyline nonsense gets him to that point.

I don't think that it is these writers fault that the rape 'jokes' are there. The rape 'jokes' have been ongoing in the situation between Sam and Lucifer since season 6. Lucifer / Sam's memory of Lucifer has on at least one occasion made a totally unambiguous reference to Sam getting raped. Regardless, rape in this context is a part of torture, if Sam doesn't get raped but instead gets hooks though his eyelids that won't be any better.

I am vaguely thinking that Sam, while optimistic that it was God, prepared for the fact that it was Lucifer - there is a giveaway in the middle of the episode (if it was deliberate) that the visions were from Lucifer and not God. But honestly I think that 6 weeks of just being utterly depressed that every time Sam makes a decision the show is going to make sure it is defined as the wrong decision, followed by Sam needing rescuing, followed by 'everything is back to normal' with additional digs at Sam for being fooled is what we are facing.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-11 16:50
Quote:
But honestly I think that 6 weeks of just being utterly depressed that every time Sam makes a decision the show is going to make sure it is defined as the wrong decision, followed by Sam needing rescuing, followed by 'everything is back to normal' with additional digs at Sam for being fooare facing.
I don't know, eilf. Call me a foolish optimist, but I don't think that will be the case this season. It wouldn't make any sense given the way they carefully crafted the first 8 episodes. This is the best, most positive story line Sam has been given in ages, containing real character growth. His call for the brothers to change the way they operate, his renewed determination to save ALL of the people, his amazing courage, his honesty to Dean about what he is experiencing, his faith in God- I will honestly be devastated if that amounts to s**t and instead we have a Sam who needs to be saved from the cage and then is excoriated for his foolishness. I think he will figure a way out of his horrible predicament himself, or at least be instrumental in saving himself. Otherwise the entire Sully ep, as well as many of the other eps, were just an enormous waste of our time and of the writers' time.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 20:33
Sorry Sd but the Ep 10 clip seems to have Dean talking to Billy Take what you will by that
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-11 20:44
Jen, first of all, don't rain on my little delusional parade!:D Ignorance is bliss, and I'm going to be blissfully ignorant for the next 6 weeks, until they burst my bubble. Hmm, I did notice Billie in that preview, but are you thinking Dean tries to enlist her help in rescuing Sam? That is a reasonable assumption. While I would infinitely prefer that Sam somehow achieve his own rescue, I would be OK if Dean arranges the rescue as long as Sam remains strong in the cage and maybe even gets some valuable intel from Lucifer about the Darkness. I would love to see him trick/convince Lucifer into rendering some kind of assistance. I just don't want a helpless, cowed damsel Sam situation. Like disgruntled, I want a repeat of the elevator scene in Plush where Sam conquers his fears and prevails. Hey, a girl can dream!
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-11 23:50
I'm backing your play. They've answered so many of our prayers this season so far, I really don't want to believe they're going to backtrack.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-12 01:41
I can't wait to find out how Dean knows about Billie. Unless Sam is already out of the cage when that scene happens, Sam never told Dean about her.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 08:31
My current theory is this: all of that weird nonsense in the preview results because Lucifer touches Sam's head and tries to mess with him (as I write that it doesn't actually seem that plausible, but hey, this is a work in progress). Alternative theory about that is that Lucy does try to mess with Sam or get into his thoughts and the one who really sent the visions -God- counters it with some mojo of his own. Second alternate theory is that Sam is able to fight off Lucifer's tampering with his mind. Anyway, meanwhile Dean has learned from Crowley that things went amiss at the cage, and in his desperation to fix this his thoughts go immediately to Death, whom he unfortunately killed (maybe!). Since he knows that people have continued to die, he figures that SOMEONE must have taken on Death's mantle so he does a summoning spell and WALLA! Billie appears. I've also decided that Billie informs him that Death has gone through many incarnations over the eons and that she is the current Death, retaining the power and the memories of the old Death. That last theory is based on nothing but my own refusal to acknowledge that Death was able to be killed. The episode ends with Sam out of the cage, mentally unscathed because of his own strength and determination, AND with valuable info about fighting the Darkness. well, what do you think?:)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 10:46
I like all your current theories and I am staying with you in the bliss/ delusional state and invite Sully for a tea party. Until depicted on screen, I believe that all Sam's carefully written character development: His no person left behind policy, his courage, faith in God, improved relationship with his brother will continue and bring to fruition some positive developments.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 12:33
Quote:
I am staying with you in the bliss/ delusional state and invite Sully for a tea party.


Can Weems come too? :) I really loved the zanna and hope we see more of them.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 12:46
Yes, Weems should be invited, the poor thing just lost his girlfriend! :) Yes, I thought the Zanna were great and Sully a credible lovely character.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-14 00:47
Voila!!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 09:18
Ooh, I just thought of another theory about the weird preview. What if when Lucifer touched Sam's head he triggered this whole odd fantasy/halluci nation so that he could trick Sam into agreeing to being possessed by him. Think about it- at this point Lucy's primary objective isn't torturing Sam, it's getting out of the effing cage. And I think he knows that Sam will never agree to possession no matter how much he is tortured. So maybe he's pulling a Gadreel and trying to TRICK Sam into agreeing. Hence his appearance at the door as "St. Nick'" which actually cracks me up. He might say "ho, ho, ho, can I come in?" It sounds really silly, but it would fit in with the plot and explain the odd preview. There, now I'm done hypothesizing (for now:)).
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 11:12
That was how I saw that preview S&D - it makes sense apart from the funko reference - unless Lucifer is trying to convince Sam he is in the French Mistake universe or something.

This season to date with the exception of a couple of episodes has seemed like it was making an attempt to make up for some of the damage done to the SPN universe as a whole, it has definitely been better than last season. I would really like to think that the writers have come-up with a coherent storyline that doesn't end the way whichever writer gets the end of the arc wants it to (ie the end is plotted by the last writer- that is not how serialised TV is supposed to work ... and in fact it DOESN'T work). Because the story for the past 2 1/2 seasons has borne more than a slight resemblance to this :D :
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk[/video]
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 12:41
Oh my God eilf, that clip cracked me up! Thanks for the laugh. (And that type of humor is why I've missed your posts so much:)) It does seem like an apt analogy for the writers' room the last few seasons, with each plot twist and turn more ridiculous and out of left field than the last. The contrast this season has been startling, with so much tight, consistent plotting. That has been sustained over so many episodes that I can't help feeling it will continue for the whole season, and that the wonderful characterizatio n of Sam that we've been seeing will be sustained.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 13:29
Glad you enjoyed it :) I admit I was getting slightly hopeful myself. But after the way the last episode was plotted I am now back to deeply suspicious with an added level of depths of despair on Sam's behalf. Probably just as well that there will be a few episodes between now and when I get to go to a con as otherwise they might get a one-woman protest from me.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 00:48
Ah, The Life of Brian. You are a woman after my own heart!

The problem is, Brad and Eugenie are on their own little island. They get away with writing what they want and tend not to share notes or play by the rules like others. They get to keep their jobs no matter what they do. So when I see them introducing canon, I'm very suspicious that what they're writing is going to stick. I think most of the other writers say "that's nice" and go on doing what they think makes sense. This year though, there seems to be a better sense of order. No, Brad and Eugenie are still in their own world, but the rest are at least comparing notes. That's why I'm hopeful too, because except for annoy blips like this episode and "The Bad Seed," it's all making sense.

So, in the hands of a better writer, would Sam have been put into such a depressing situation? Or is this a setup for the next writer to show how strong Sam is and how he'll overcome Lucifer. He did it once before. Will that be believable though? For me, the only plausible way out of this is if God himself rescues Sam from the cage, or Lucifer lets him go. That way, Sam's faith is validated. Sam is being rewarded for overcoming his fears. If Dean ends up rescuing him, that historically turns into a heaping pile of "I told you so," or Sam with his tail between his legs telling Dean, "You were right." You know, the sort of twist that obliterates all that growth we've seen Sam experience. I don't want to see that anymore than I want to see Lucifer riding Sam out of Hell. I'm starting to wish they never went there. But they did and fingers crossed that the next writer, Andrew Dabb, makes it right.

BTW, it's really, really good to see you back eilf.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-14 09:01
I'm rooting for
1) God to save Sam, although he didn't care when Sam was in the Cage before and hasn't cared about Adam, so unlikely.
2) Sam to save himself, which will help him heal because he will know he had the strength to save himself instead of being a pawn.
3) It's something else going on i.e. an hallucination, Gabriel, but not Sam actually trapped with Lucifer again unlikely

What I expect is for Dean to come to the rescue and then berate Sam for the rest of the season (and possibly for season hereafter) for not listening to him, while denying he has any connection to Amara. I'm hoping that pattern is done, but I'm not convinced and won't be until we see what happens.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 16:59
I know we have seen the boys in depressing situations before (not including the sorrow of holding the dead body of the other brother) but this was just so over the top depressing, exacerbated by the sinking suspicion that these writers are capable of throwing a grenade on Sam's character development and the damage would be permanent. It is easier to raise the boys from the dead that to extract Sam from this horror. I agree we need to see a resolution in which Sam's faith is validated; anything less is not acceptable. I was vastly disappointed by the actual final product of this long awaited plot of Sam's return to the cage. It deserved to be the main event without distractions with a more complex buildup and the focus of all the main characters.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-15 17:29
Unfortunately, this is pretty typical for Sam's storylines these days. Remember Season 7 and all of that build up to Sam finally losing it and ending up in a mental hospital and what did they do? Instead of focusing the whole episode on Sam and Dean, they decided it would be a good idea to bring Castiel back right in the same episode that should have exclusively focused on Sam's mental breakdown. They'd been talking about it for practically two seasons, and yet, they couldn't manage to give it one episode when it finally happened. And the worst part, was that the brothers were separated (just like this episode), so there was basically no brother interaction except for one very unsatisfying conversation at the beginning. Dean didn't even go to his brother when they found him being electrocuted. That was one of the most poorly directed, unsatisfying plot wrap ups that was ever on this show. Dean standing at the door of the room while Sam is having hallucinations and is on the verge of death. Seriously? I was so pissed.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-15 20:14
Hi Alice, thank you :D.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-12 18:36
Monty Python?
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 20:50
Yes, Life of Brian :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-12 21:10
Funny. Even funnier? The 5 hours I spent watching the clips from MPFC until I got a hankering for some Spam and had to run to the grocery store. Thanks. ;)
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 21:44
spam spam spam spam ....
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-14 07:51
I'm beginning to think that it wasn't Lucifer in the cage at all. What if the whole thing was one of Gabriel's fantastical creations? Maybe he's been in limbo this whole time and he wants to tell Sam something privately and used the Lucifer in the cage ruse to get him there, and then made sure that Crowley and Rowena would want to flee so he could talk to Sam alone? And now he's going to unleash one of his Changing Channels weirdnesses onto Sam in order to give him some information. That would be in line with Gabriel as a character and the way in which he manipulates and sort of helps at the same time. And it also fits his "I could never fool you" line from Sam's Daddy vision. It would be very Changing Channels/Myster y Spot like for Gabriel to do something like that. AND it would explain the weird promo, which I am betting now is an actual episode rather than just a weird promo. We'll have Dean and Cas running around trying to save Sam and Sam living in wacko world with Rowena and Crowley learning how to defeat the darkness. This is my new spec!! And I like it!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-15 07:13
Well, your theory makes as much sense as anything else I've read/proposed. But I kind of hope you're wrong because while I love the idea of Gabriel being back (and I'm partial to the idea that he is working as God's agent and was responsible for the "John" vision), I also really like the idea that Lucifer is back in play, however briefly. So I hope that it's truly him/a manifestation of the real him, in that cage. I guess you could say that I Love Lucy! Sorry, that was awful.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-12 01:19
Even Supernatural darling Ben Edlund made not very subtle rape joke in season 7 "the rapier wit, the wittier rape." Was much worse than any of the bunk mate comments.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 08:09
Yes, that's the reference I was talking about. There is no ambiguity about it. Anyway the actors are treating it like a joke (Emily Swallow for example) and Mark Pellegrino has also treated 'Sam in the cage being tortured by Lucifer', as something to make jokes about.

Alice is correct that SPN is not good with these sorts of social issues. And the amount of reaction to Sam's situation - various levels from Sam/Lucifer to 'Sam was askin' for it' - that I have seen across fandom is more depressing than the outcome of the episode, which is really saying something.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 09:20
eilf, what did Emily Swallow say about this?
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 10:49
What did Emily Swallow say and do you have details of time and place?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-12 10:57
Just go to her twitter acct. She was joking around with some fans and cast during the broadcast.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 11:04
I meant she was treating Lucifer's comment as a joke:
emily swallow: ?@bigEswallz Dec 10 Vancouver, British Columbia: OK @jarpad & @MarkRPellegrin o -- who wins the coin toss for top bunk? #Supernatural @cw_spn #roomies

The CW_SPN is also treating it as a joke:
Supernatural ?@cw_spn Dec 10: See if Lucifer rekindles his old friendship on the Winter Finale of #Supernatural NOW: http://on.cwtv.com/SP09

One assumes that they are all just being grossly insensitive to (real world) implications rather than actually making fun of anything that is going to happen in the next episode. Which was Alice's original point.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-12 13:37
Eilf, even in this site sometimes people have said far more worse than that. Either one is not making a joke on the issue what I can see and this is the kind of thing I don't like fans or well people in general doing. Maybe "Meeting an old friend" was sarcasm because Lucy is not Sam's friend? (that is how I read it) Or like somebody said before about prison bunks. Maybe she just meant a coin toss about bunks you know? But I guess you have your own view on what those sentences mean. Certain picture comes to mind that Jensen posted which few of the fans regarded validation to attack both Jensen and Misha because it was a picture of two wrong actors that are friends. I guess point is I don't see anything wrong on those two samples. And even with jokes, they are still jokes. Not to meant taken seriously? The situation where Sam is in is still serious and that is not changed.

- Lilah
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 14:44
I am glad we agree on this Lilah. Yes people have already said (and no doubt will continue to say) worse things about how Sam deserves whatever happens to him. The difference of course from the actors point of view is that they KNOW what is going to happen in the next episode. I assume they wouldn't make these jokes otherwise. Though it is still wrong. The viewers who are celebrating (especially the ones who think that they will now get Destiel since Sam is 'out of the way' *eyeroll*) are actually worse since they DON'T know what is planned ... it doesn't make any of it ok.
I have no idea why you think Jensen and Misha taking photographs is in any way connected with the text of the show implying that a character is about to be sexually assaulted?
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-12 17:42
Point is so called "attack" on what they have tweeted and making a big deal out of something that they might not even mean. There, said it more clearly. We don't know what happens in a next episode but I guess the actors/actresse s/writers shouldn't post anything because every fan/hater what ever finds something to get offended by. Like in the photo case of Jensen and Misha and now in some tweets that is not originally the tweets fault but because a character hate somewhere out there they are also pulled into this and?.. Nah, I will just say it in short, I have no issue with the tweets at all. I guess I have a bad sense of humor because I didn't get offended from the tweets, sorry. I agree to disagree about this.

- Lilah
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 20:51
I honestly have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Please leave me alone. Thank you.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-13 03:10
I was offering a counter opinion that I didn't see a reason from those tweets to me get offended. And I also agreed to disagree. I can remove both comments because it seems you see them as a personal attack somehow when I gave an general example of twitter behavior that leads usually to over board reaction.

Edited, issue solved.

- Lilah
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 00:58
I'm just going to chalk this up to being a misunderstandin g. Nothing more here to see.

Although, I do tend to agree with eilf. Fans are more and more sensitive about social issues now. It's season 11, it's been going on for a few years now and TPTB still don't get it. It's a generational thing, something that's happening a lot more with a new younger audience watching that was raised to be PC about everything.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 17:06
I see. Thank you. Yes, I am not impressed by Swallow's tweets in regard to the coin toss or a buddy comedy for Sam and Lucifer. I think it is because a newcomer on the set may not appreciate how some of us fans followed Sam's character development, anticipated this episode and were so moved by the horror facing Sam.
On a separate note I found rather cheesy Ruth Connell's tweet that basically stated Jensen was a professional and earned his paycheck because he managed not to stare at Swallow's boobs on set.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 20:57
Yes I meant that the balance of evidence as shown by her joke (and the other show related people who reacted to it) was that the next episode wasn't going to go 'there'. The CW_SPN twitter is often manned by someone who is actively trying to get a rise out of people - which they usually succeed in doing ...

There were a lot of directly-connec ted-to-the-scen es people commenting on camera angles / eyelines / gentlemanly behaviour of Jensen (I watched, I think it was, one of the angels (might have been the priest) also keeping a VERY steady eyeline :D )
That was some serious cleavage going on.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-14 09:49
It really was distracting. And honestly, I thought that dress was really unattractive. Cleavage or not, it was not flattering and it took focus away. Maybe that was the point. If you focus on the her ugly, revealing dress, you won't listen to the crappy dialogue.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 17:02
I was focusing on the fact Dean looked like a made up GQ model.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 14:06
I explained this in another reply upthread, but it wasn't the comment itself. If it had happened earlier in their talk, I would have been okay with it. I was okay with "Hug it out?" But one of the keys to good dialogue is timing, and the timing was very, very off in this script. That was not the way to leave a cliffhanger, especially when Sam was visibly crying. It was very insensitive and turned the horror into a direction it shouldn't have.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-11 14:02
I have mixed feelings on this episode. I did connect emotionally with the Sam and Lucifer scenes, although it is all down to the acting. Once I actually look at what happened, it does kind of fall apart.

The only disagreement I have is that I'm not sure why Amara isn't considered evil. She is eating souls and killing people. Even if she is being honest, and the souls aren't dead, just in her, their bodies are still dead and so are they. Why isn't she evil for killing people? I guess we are supposed to think she doesn't know what she is doing, but there is no indication that she would stop if she did. Eve was considered evil and all she was doing was trying to protect her children. Azazel, Lilith and Ruby were "evil" and they were trying to get their people out of literal Hell. Amara wants to get her brother's attention so she is murdering people right and left. To me that's evil. I think they want us to think she's not evil, but I'm not buying it.

Amara's other goal seems to be to eliminate free will. No rules, eternal bliss sounds like a being in a drugged state. It's very similar to season four Angel and Jasmine who legitimately brought world peace with the price of eating a few people now and then. She was still considered evil and needing to be stopped. Basically this is not my first "Goddess who is doing good, but is really bad" rodeo.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-11 14:58
Quote:
It's very similar to season four Angel and Jasmine
This has been my fear of the Amara story from the start. A rehash of that failed story line from Angel with Dean in the Connor role (and Sam as Angel?). I hope they have something different planned.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-11 15:01
Or Leviathans making us into Turducken eating stoners. Dean seemed pretty happy after eating that Turducken. Remember, "You know what, I don't care that I don't care."
Now, Amara is making him all zombie stoner and giving him bliss and he can't seem to make himself admit it to anyone.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-12-11 15:56
I'm with spnlit and samandean10. I would share every bit of your emotions here, Alice, if I believed Lucifer. As the matter of fact, I don't. Yeah, I don't believe Devil. What? Sue me. I'm in complete agreement with spnlit, that if what Lucifer said is true, than the story is just a mere, tedious redundant reliving of past horror and it destroys Sam's character. I think that Lucifer's words are just a mind playing trick from Lucifer's part, intending on the destruction of Sam's will and his faith. Lucifer knows that only physical torture won't break Sam, he needs to break his will, so I think that Lucifer's words are just his first torture for Sam. But I believe that the Cage really has fissures and Lucifer could know that Sam would come. And I also think that Sam's going to the Cage was necessary, as I think it's his personal batlle. He should face his fear and what he had endured in the Cage to close this page of his life. I totally agree with samandean10, that it will be a battle of wills and wits. And as it's his personal battle nobody will help him, like it was when he waged his personal battle with demon blood, he won it alone, without anybody's help, be it Dean or Castiel. I think that the scene in Plush with a clown was a kind of foreshadowing. He should face his biggest fear and win, like it was in Plush.
If you are right and authors intended to screw their main character in such a way, I think the show will end for me at season 8 finale.
People seem to be puzzled by Dean's behaviour, but it was logical. He didn't answer Sam's call because he was under Amara's control, he was in a trancelike state, as for why he could try to stab her, it was just because she allowed him. She said exactly that, something like: "You had to try this and see that it's pointless". She just wanted to show him that it's pointless to fight her. As for her trying to suck up his soul, I think she just changed her mind at the last moment. I think if she couldn't do it for any reason, at least she would show some trace of surprise, but she wasn't surprised at the least.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-11 16:55
Quote:
And I also think that Sam's going to the Cage was necessary, as I think it's his personal batlle. He should face his fear and what he had endured in the Cage to close this page of his life.
disgruntled, I hope so much that we are right. If things with Sam unfold the way I hope, then I will forgive Carver for the way he butchered Sam's character during S8-10.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 11:32
Quote:
I think that Lucifer's words are just a mind playing trick from Lucifer's part, intending on the destruction of Sam's will and his faith.
I hold on to the fact Lucifer did not say anything to Sam about being the one to communicate with him until after Sam provided the information. Lucifer capitalized on the info and twisted it to destroys Sam's thread of hope. I also do not think what "young Dad" said to Sam would be in line with Lucifer's plan. Need to help yourself and you boys could stop it.
Quote:
If you are right and authors intended to screw their main character in such a way, I think the show will end for me at season 8 finale.
I too will be vastly disappointed and discouraged. I am hoping we are all pleased with the development of the next ep.
Quote:
People seem to be puzzled by Dean's behaviour, but it was logical. He didn't answer Sam's call because he was under Amara's control, he was in a trancelike state, as for why he could try to stab her, it was just because she allowed him. She said exactly that, something like: "You had to try this and see that it's pointless". She just wanted to show him that it's pointless to fight her.
I think it is plausible that she allowed Dean to stab her to make the point he cannot destroy her; but Dean chose to do it. I think he mustered up the courage or the Hail Mary attempt on his own accord because she said I get it you are a warrior, you had to try it. So, he did have some some control over his decisions and could have also answered the phone. I do not think she controlled Dean and made him stab her to prove her point. I think she only saw it coming. OR Do you think she controlled his actions and had him stab her to make her point? Then if that is the case Dean is a walking Zombie puppet around her with no free will.

As for her trying to suck up his soul, I think she just changed her mind at the last moment. I think if she couldn't do it for any reason, at least she would show some trace of surprise, but she wasn't surprised at the least. I think I saw a moment of confusion or some reaction on her face and I am still going with the fact she cannot take his soul. I just did not see anything in her actions or dialogue that would indicate why at that very moment she wanted to take his soul.
I think the whole interaction between Dean and Amara in this episode was too vague, ambiguous and subtle, to render it unclear. This is similar to the MOC saga. I do not mind mystery and intrigue and waiting for answers but I hope we get them. For me all the questions still remain open to debate: Did Amara change her mind about taking his soul or could she simply not complete the task. Why would she suck out his soul at that moment if she wants to become ONE with him? Why did she kiss him; does she have a sexual desire for him or just another means to apply her bliss, you cannot resist me. Is it only Dean or everyone who cannot resist her? Some people think she showed Dean the future or some image of Destruction, did that really happen? (I completely missed that). Finally, if she is so irresistible and Dean is a zombie then she is eradicating FREE WILL.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-12-12 17:59
he mustered up the courage or the Hail Mary attempt on his own accord because she said I get it you are a warrior, you had to try it. So, he did have some some control over his decisions and could have also answered the phone.
I just think she lifted her controll a bit for Dean to try to stab her and fail to make her point. And yes, free will is not her conception for humankind, that's for sure.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-12 18:30
The control thing seems to ebb and flow. It's not made very clear. IMO she was pulling at Dean at the time the phone call came in to come to where she was and I can't see a clear minded Dean ignoring Sam's call under those circumstances. Maybe if he was pissed about something...but he wasn't, why would he blow Sam off with so much at stake? Now Dean has shown he can overpower that but it was an immediate danger to Sam that shook him out of it.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-12-11 17:32
It depends on the next episode if I will be formerly disgruntled former ex-viewer, or a furious never-again-vie wer :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-11 21:50
:D Whatever you decide to call yourself I hope it still includes viewer.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 08:35
If the plot goes the way I'm hoping, you might even be "ecstatic former ex-viewer." Too much? :)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-12-12 10:43
You betcha :D
Mallena
# Mallena 2015-12-11 21:40
Didn't enjoy the scenes with ( too much cleavage) Amara that much. She's okay, just not scary. Not sure if she changed her mind about sucking out Dean's soul, could not do it for some reason, or got mesmerized by those pretty green eyes. Hoping that this first part episode leads to an excellent second part episode. Luci might not have sent those visions. He might just have taken advantage of the situation. I noticed that Luci did not say anything specific about the visions. Wouldn't he have teased Sam about the burning bush? Remember that Lucifer is known as the Father of Lies. Rowena was okay in this epi and she had a good line...bring a handcart, we're going to hell. I actually liked the fact that Dean was not there. What could he have done but yell curses from the peanut gallery with Crowley and Rowena?? This way we get to see (hopefully) him getting up the rescue effort to help Sam. If Sam rescues himself, that'll be great too. I don't worry about who saves who, I just enjoy it. Sam and Lucifer were so great together. One thing I didn't like was Sam's line "all current indications of his presence, ect", that was clunky and took me out of the moment. Sam, you can forget your fear for a minute to deliver a long, complicated sentence? Just say, No idea, or whatev. Jared was so good in these scenes, his terror, tears, emo eyes...I was just floored. Lucifer was very scary and so well played. The hell sequence made this a winner for me overall. Yes, it could have been better, but I'll take it.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-12 00:57
Adam is in the Cage. If getting hit with a Molotov of holy fire destroyed his body, then it would have/should have killed Michael (hello canon fuck up). No, Michael just teleported away, and healed himself. Cas is a special case, got brought him back inside his vessel, he wouldn't do that for Michael if his whole thing was for the Winchesters to stop the Apocalypse. As much as I think Jimmy being in Heaven is some straight up bullshit canon violation (another of Dabb's), I can begrudgingly buy it (still hate it though). But say Adam did die and went to Heaven, that just means Michael resurrected him again and repossessed him. Because if he could just hope into a remade Adam corpse, why didn't Zachariah just kill Dean and Sam and have Lucifer and Michael do the exact same thing.

Adam is in the Cage, Death told Dean he would make an exception for one soul Sam or Adam. So Adam is in the Cage, his body was probably burned out by Michael, and if he was getting tortured, he's probably a demon by now.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 08:45
If you look too closely at some of the canon about vessels, it doesn't hold up. First off, how did Nick's vessel even get in the cage? And I think Adam's vessel should have been destroyed, as Raphael's was when Balthazar crystallized it. That wouldn't necessarily destroy the archangel inside as there is no canon that says otherwise. When Abaddon was molotoved with holy oil it only destroyed her vessel (although it seemed silly that she was able to or even wanted to reassemble the old one with a spell.)
But it does make sense that the human inside the meatsuit would die when his vessel was destroyed, as Cas explained about Jimmy. As to why Michael was able to quickly return as Adam and why Lucifer is able to appear as Nick, that seems like a contradiction of canon.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 09:29
It isn't Lucifer they are seeing. It is a projection of him from the real cage. We see him only from the point of view of the only human - Sam. Crowley probably sees the smoke that Lucifer says he would manifest as 'topside'. Rowena probably sees power. Dean might see a very damaged Nick, or Sam, since those were the versions he knew.

It probably means that the torture Lucifer will put him through is all psychological instead of physical, and maybe part of it will be all that weird Christmas stuff ... if it is meant to be taken seriously ...
vince
# vince 2015-12-12 20:59
Angels can project whatever appearance they want in the afterlife, as per Zachariah in "Dark Side of the Moon." It is canon that holy fire will kill an angel if they touch or pass through it, from "Free to Be You and Me":
Castiel: When the oil burns, no angel can touch or pass through the flames, or he dies.

Being an archangel doesn't matter, because they trapped Gabriel and Raphael in rings of holy fire, if it just meant their vessel would die they should have just been able to walk across the flames, take the Mulligan and find a new vessel.

People bring up the whole Abaddon/Rudy dead bodies thing, the reason they are able to take possession of dead bodies is because they are demons, and don't need to be granted consent. So Abaddon doing a spell to restore her holy fire charred corpse has no bearing on anything in regards to angels. The Cas/Jimmy thing is a huge canon fuck up, but can waved away with "it was God".

Adam being burned by the holy fire wouldn't kill him, because angels heal all wounds. It should have killed him and Michael according to canon, but it didn't. And if it destroyed the body, and Michael can just recreate an Adam corpse, it renders the majority of season 5's storyline pointless.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-13 00:22
Quote:
It is canon that holy fire will kill an angel if they touch or pass through it, from "Free to Be You and Me":
Castiel: When the oil burns, no angel can touch or pass through the flames, or he dies.
OK, I forgot that Cas said that, thanks for reminding me. Although the point remains that there was a canon screw-up in S5 when Michael immediately returned to the field of battle with Lucifer. But as to this point:

Quote:
And if it destroyed the body, and Michael can just recreate an Adam corpse, it renders the majority of season 5's storyline pointless.
I think there is a way around that. Since Adam HAD previously consented to the possession and never revoked it, arguably that consent was good forever, allowing Michael to re-possess the corpse. Since neither Sam nor Dean had ever consented to possession, prior to Sam saying yes to Lucifer, the archangels couldn't have just had them killed and then possessed their meatsuits. The other alternative is that TPTB just didn't care enough about consistency with canon and opted for the most dramatic story line.:)
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-13 04:05
Consent is needed each time the angel leaves the body, Gadreel's first vessel didn't reject him, but he still needed to say "yes". So if Adam's body was completely destroyed to the point of sending Adam's soul to Heaven like Jimmy, the only way would be for Michael to fully resurrect Adam's body, soul and all, and get him to consent again. There is no way Adam can be in Heaven without completely destroying canon.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-13 08:02
Holy hell Vince! Stop using logic against me!;) What about this- the "dead guy exception" to the rule that the angel needs consent every time he re-enters a vessel. The way this exception works is that, if the vessel is completely destroyed WHILE the angel possesses it, and the host dies, then the meatsuit is at the angel's disposal forever. Pretty airtight, huh?:)
vince
# vince 2015-12-13 19:47
Well, if the vessel is destroyed, it means there's no body and the angel no longer possessing. Whether an angel leaves of its own accord or is ejected, once out of the body it should always need consent. If Adam was only charred extra crispy style, but his body still held together. That means Adam's soul would still be in his body, since angels heal all wounds of their hosts.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-14 07:36
Vince, I'm not ready to give up on the "dead guy exception" yet. It's consistent with what happened to Cas/Jimmy. After Lucy exploded Cas, Jimmy was killed and the vessel was destroyed. And God brought CAS back to life and reassembled his meatsuit, but they never said that he also changed all of the rules regarding angel possession. So since Jimmy was dead and had never revoked his consent to possession, Cas could keep that meatsuit. As they say in geometry, QED.:)
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-12 01:01
What exactly was so bad about the dialouge? Any examples I'm sure I can go through any of the writers scripts and find fault with it. You say it's terrible, give me an example of a bad dialogue exchange.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-12 06:02
Ugh. Crowleys line: "I believe it's secrets, along with the spells for warding Sam, are recorded where many such mysteries are found. The Book of the Damned." I couldn't believe Crowley even said this. What a clunky, Hogwartish line. Poor Mark. Thankfully he managed to pull it off. No small feat with crappy dialogue such as this. Not just that but how would Crowley even know? He didn't decipher the BOTD and Rowena sure as Hell wasn't sharing any of its secrets with the son she hates enough to kill. Worst of all that line gave me flashbacks to MBFWB. It had that same cheesy, cartoonist, amateurish feel that that episode was rife with. And the angel fight scene? Or the what felt like shoehorned in scene of the angel meeting? Or the problems with the flow? Left me bored, incredulous, scratching my head or all three at the same time...

I'm starting to wonder what's with all these train whistles and crumbs being thrown about. Is God planning on making his grand entrance by rail? *Cue western music and grizzly old prospector guy* "Yup. *spits* From whut I heerd God is gunna be arrivin on the Noon Train." *Western music ends* Kidding of course. Maybe. ;)

Don't get me wrong. I liked it for the most part but as per usual with a Nep Duo script, the more you dissect the more holes and downright stupidity you will find. It's better to just leave your better sense at the door, drink copiously, watch and not ask any serious questions. For your own sanity.
vince
# vince 2015-12-12 21:13
The Book of the Damned is known for having "spells inside that thing for everything. Talking some black mass, dark magic, end-of-times nastiness." So if that's the lore out there with regards to the contents of the Book of the Damned, it stands to reason that Crowley would know that info too, and "believe" that it could hold the answers.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 09:43
I'm with you Vince. Personally I find other writers to be way more fangirly \ canon damaging \ generally destructive to the show than these two. But it is becoming fandom lore that they are automatically going to be bad, so they get dissected. I think Alice was pretty fair about the story they wrote, but yes, decent dialogue by any of the writers is getting less common.

Its interesting that they used the exact same idea about Rowena goading someone to leave safety and go to danger as they did with charlie last season though. That now looks like Rowena has a very strong agility to influence people. I bet none of the writers will follow through on it though
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 10:56
drat wrong place
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 15:59
Quote:
But it is becoming fandom lore that they are automatically going to be bad, so they get dissected.
Well, thinking that they are the worst of the current writing crop doesn't mean I automatically expect the worst from them. I take each episode on its merits. This ep was certainly much better than the Bad Seed, but quite a bit worse than Holy Terror, which I thought was an excellent mid-season finale. I also liked Soul Survivor a lot, and a few of their other eps. However, I have simply found many of their episodes to be mediocre or worse because of clunky writing and plotting and attempts at humor that fall completely flat. And I thought this ep fell into that category- not awful, but disappointingly mediocre. I actually go into each ep hoping for the best, because I much prefer when I'm enjoying an ep rather than wanting to throw something at my TV.:)
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-12 21:40
Yes well I try to do that myself. I don't always succeed, especially with the writers I know to have an agenda. I always feel with these two that at least they don't have an agenda. They don't play favorites with the brothers, they don't rewite canon in pithy single sentences (and song), and they don't introduce author-insert characters. They take the story-line they have been fed and run with it. Now I don't say that they always do it well - and as I said somewhere else they had exactly the same scene in this episode as they did in the episode where Charlie died, which would be cool if it were deliberate but actually was more likely just a way of moving the characters into position. In which case it was terrible in both story-lines because in both story-lines there was a better way of getting the characters into position.

What SPN has forgotten most of all is that you can't make joke of serious canon and story-lines because when you do that you undermine your entire show. You can write funny stuff, you can break the 4th wall, you can do whatever you like with the normal run of the show. But not with the death of Sam's girlfriend(s), not with the death of Dean and Sam's mother, not by destroying the equal relationship between the brothers, not by making fun of Sam sacrificing himself to go to the cage in season 5 (technically they haven't done that last one YET) these are core story-points and screwing with them makes the whole structure fall apart. If you do it with the core of the story you will lose its heart. Sera Gamble knew that, as did Kripke. However as Jensen said at a con recently nowadays 'there is no joke too far on the show' (he may not have phrased it exactly like that and don't ask me which con there are too many but it was since the summer I think).

Back in the day they had Sam check that the wall of Bobby's house was solid to prove it wasn't a set. They rewrote Ruby so that there was no potential for consent issues from the person the demon was possessing. There are many other examples I am sure. That is good world-building. SPN is a real universe. It won't remain a real universe without attention from the writers. And the quality of the dialogue is honestly only one of the issues. A writer who can write good dialogue and uses it to screw with the heart of the show is worse than mediocre dialogue that at least tells the story.

(TL;DR: yeah there is one writer who bothers me a lot ... but I am outnumbered ;) )
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-13 00:30
Quote:
And the quality of the dialogue is honestly only one of the issues. A writer who can write good dialogue and uses it to screw with the heart of the show is worse than mediocre dialogue that at least tells the story.


I agree with this statement, which is why a certain writer who shall remain nameless (RT..RT..RT) will never be my favorite. I was disappointed in this episode, but it didn't make me angry the way some eps have when they have tampered with or even rewritten the characterizatio ns of the brothers. But my preference is a writer who stays true to the heart of the show while ALSO writing great dialogue. I guess I'm just greedy.:)
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-13 14:56
LOL you and I are in agreement there (writer-wise) :D I suppose my hints weren't that subtle... Oh we used have writers who were both ... Erik Kripke, Sera Gamble, Ben Edlund, Raelle Tucker ... the better writers these days (as being able to do both plot, canon AND dialogue) are Robbie Berens and that new writer whose name I can't remember Nancy something (?) and since she is only 1 for 1 as yet ....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-13 16:32
I have to include JC and Dabb in that group. Yes, Dabb has had a few stinkers, but his best eps are fantastic and he doesn't play favorites with the brothers. And whatever my quibbles with JC as show runner, I love his writing.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-13 17:51
I think Dabb may have found his place having become head writer (he is isn't he?) since the coherency of the season seems better than the last 3 (though this particular jury is out on that at present, it will get back to you after the next ep). I am not sure that any of his episodes are my favorites ... *goes to check * no none of his make my top 10 list, though there are a few that I do like, and some of them are legendary - the pre-season 8 ones are mostly OK. JC writes so few episodes these days that the overall show quality is not improved by them. But yes looking at his episodes PONR and Mystery Spot are both SPN at its best, as are some of the others he wrote. I have not been impressed by where he took the storyline with any of his episodes since he became showrunner, which isn't the same thing as them necessarily being bad episodes (though some of them are). Ok, he can stay too :) but he is on probation. ;)

I will say that I like Nicole Snyder and Eric Charmello but I consider their episodes to not really be straightforward SPN episodes, they are almost like special-edition versions of the show (meta? maybe). They did write what vies for the worst episode of SPN - Mannequin 3 - and then showed they learned nothing when they rewrote it this season as 'Plush' - for which they should be punished in some way... But other than that... And they wrote a canon episode, with 'the Purge'. which I liked a lot and was the only rational and saving point of the middle of that season.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-13 19:02
Adam glass was worse IMO, and thankfully he's gone. His habits bothered me even more than RT's although they are similar in many ways.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 14:47
If I'm thinking of the same con, I thought Jensen was talking about pranks or jokes made on set. I believe he even said 'we have a saying on set, no jokes too low.' If I recall it was a response to a pranking question or a playful tease at Misha. He wasn't talking about the shows storyline or content.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-13 15:01
Well without going back and listening I can't be sure. Yes obviously on set it seems like no joke is too much or too weird (not just talking about J2 here, the crew seem to be slightly nuts too). But it stuck with me at the time (the way a prank question wouldn't) that it WAS about the show and Jensen said that they used second guess themselves on what people would or wouldn't find funny / what they could get away with and now it's 'no joke too far'. Personally I think that they were right previously ... the fratboy levels on the show are getting a little out of hand.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-13 17:39
.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 21:47
So now Show is going to MarySue the BOTD... ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 21:52
So now Show is MarySueing the BOTD? ;)
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-12 15:48
Challenge accepted! The key to dialogue isn't just lines, it's putting it all together into conversations that move and make sense. Allow me a few days to gather some examples. Who knows, maybe I'll get a whole article out of it.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 17:15
Not that you need any help Alice but I have a line that may get you started. I raise it so maybe you can help me out a bit. DEAN to CROWLEY: You're the king of the joint; don't you have a key? (referring to the cage of course) Correct me if I am wrong, but Lucifer was locked in the cage by God, Divine mechanisms as Crowley put it. The last time the cage was opened it took breaking all the seals - Dean the first and Sam the last. Then it took the rings of the four horsemen to open the cage to put Lucifer back in, right? So why would Dean say such a stupid thing or am I missing something? And as an aside, how about Dean's response to Sam about the burning bush? "There are bushes and sometimes they burn....?
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 01:08
I'll use that! Actually, Wednesday has a review coming very soon too that mentions some of Dean's weird behavior. She takes on the dialogue issue and has some great examples. Should be posted in a day or two.
Cliff
# Cliff 2015-12-12 15:22
I actually have no problem with consent issues or rape being used in the show, they are perfectly valid themes. What gets me down is that they raise the issues then drop them because they aren’t brave enough to handle the subjects ( and the network probably wouldn’t allow it anyway.) If they actually explored what happened to Sam in the cage in a way that does the character justice then great. But I doubt it. They always chicken out. I know a lot of people were pissed of by the ending of Outlander. But in a way that graphic, horrific episode was less insulting than the vague innuendo laden jokes on Supernatural.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-13 03:25
I watch Outlander too. It is a magnificent series but I need to say that that ending was hard to watch because it was done truthfully. It did make me uncomfortable but still I was glad that that issue was taken head on like a bull from it horns. In a way small hints are easier and not so graphic like in Game of Thrones which is pretty darn hard to watch sometimes. Outlander and GOT are both good series even if they tackle some hard realities on their way. :)

- Lilah
danashulps
# danashulps 2015-12-12 19:48
Regarding the reference to sexual violence, I presume you are referring to Lucifer's 'top bunk, lower bunk or together' comment? Or have I missed something. I considered it an amusing and typical Lucifer thing to say, with a double meaning (if not more). I am a gay man and was not offended at all and it escapes me how a reference to Sam having a choice of the "top" (!) bunk could refer to violence against Sam. As for political correctness, it's been going for over 30 years and I am heartily sick of it. It only leads to an unhealthy culture of mendacity as people disguise what they really want to say. The writers can offend all and sundry as far as I am concerned. Also, it is a bit odd to talk about political correctness when the title of the review, vulgarly in my opinion, refers to the boys being screwed with their pants on. Oh well, I am probably the odd man out here in more ways than one: I actually liked Route 666.....
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-13 03:20
Hey, I am with you with Route 666! I don't know if it is because I am a foreigner and in my country we have a little different view on things but in my eyes Route 666 was not bad. It was a story like any other. But it is a hard story for others. Some of the things Supernatural uses as story are taboos to many people and with good reason. And it is understandable also. I am just glad that I found another that liked it! Cheers. :)

- Lilah
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 14:53
One of the things that I disliked about Route 666 was the horrible acting by the guest star playing Cassies mother. That woman is no novice - she had a long career in One Life To Live but you'd never know it based on this performance Other than that a decent enough story. Teasing Sam, Sam in the light green sweater, a different side of the elder Winchester... And Dean sex. ;)
vince
# vince 2015-12-13 19:53
I watched it recently, and it's not as bad as its reputation suggests. I think a lot of its flaws lie on the technical side of things, like Kripke has mentioned. The truck wasn't really scary, it was too Canadian to be believable as the deep south, the chase scene wasn't that great, etc...
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-13 21:44
The worst waste was the use of 'Route 666' - that should have been saved for something else! SO much Meatloaf-style potential storyline there. Like a haunted headless motorcycle gang or something (this is why I am not allowed write TV shows...).

Yeah, for me it has cute scenes, I liked the girlfriend, I liked the scene where the boys had a one sided conversation where Dean said nothing and Sam worked out the entire story from sideways glances - THERE are the 2 brothers who are actually brothers!
I liked the solution - so much Sam confidence, and high speed car stuff (my Dad will only watch shows that have car-chases, I am immune to their charms mostly, but I get that they are appreciated :D), and Dean threatening to kill him when he realized how tenuous the solution really was), and some of the lines were funny:

DEAN: So I guess I saved you from a boring existence.
SAM:Yeah, occasionally I miss boring.
DEAN: So this killer truck.
SAM: I miss conversations that didn't start with 'this killer truck'.

ETA: so I am not a car expert (and I imagine this comment will get me in trouble with the impalaites) but it strikes me that, pretty as it is, the Impala is not actually the best car for a high speed chase, the rear of it appears to do its own thing especially when cornering. I think they did the best they could under the circumstances.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-13 22:22
The biggest waste was scheduling Route 666. It was against the State of the Union speech. Every other network was covering the SOTU, Anyone who didn't want to see it had one choice Supernatural. The week before they showed Faith, a stand alone and one of the best episodes of the season if not the series. The next week was Nightmare, a great mytharc episode. Either one would have been a great introduction to the series and might well have really made people see the full potential of Supernatural. They could have shown Route 666 a week earlier or week later and presented a much stronger episode. Instead they scheduled one of the weaker stand alone episodes. Even so, Route 666 remains the highest rated episode of Supernatural. It was such a missed opportunity.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-13 21:55
And it snowed.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-14 08:00
Racist truck. Ugh. It's telling that Eugenie and Brad wrote just one episode during the Kripke years and then never again until long after he was gone. That speaks volumes to their quality (or lack thereof) IMO.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-14 23:29
Just about the entire writing staff was gone after the first season, there were 4 writers out of 16 that stuck around for season 2, and eventually widdled down till it was just Gamble. Also, Kripke was still involved in season 7, he didn't 100% fully step away until season 8.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-14 14:17
not one of my favorites from Season 1 but not a horrible episode. Although... Kripke usually lists this (and Bugs) as his least favorite episodes.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-15 17:11
I liked the dialogue and interactions of the brother's in that episode. Sam learned that Dean spilled the family secret of their business, Sam's teasing Dean and the resolution of the truck driving through Baby and Dean's reaction.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-14 01:13
Screwed with their pants on is an expression of being double crossed or being wronged for something that wasn't your doing. It's one that has been around for years. Probably before everything got so PC. :)
CodyMB
# CodyMB 2015-12-15 01:13
Been working n too busy 2 comment but geez i am in the minority this season. Ive been harsh on the last few seasons but almost every episode this year has been solid. i love how they have handled the Darkness, I think Amara is awesome and has a good story in the sense that she is not a villain from her perspective. On top of everything else, FINALLY...FINAL LY, LUCIFER IS BACK!!! I feel like season 5 ended and i'm finally possibly getting whati wanted. Loving every minute.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-12-15 17:06
I'm going to sum up my blog's review: all of the problems of this episode revolve around that it should have been at LEAST a two-parter. Instead we get things like the angels finally getting their act together and uniting (oh gee, imagine if that had been a CASTIEL PLOT!) all happening in about 7 minutes of total screen time. Journey down into Hell to call up Lucifer? Apparently just an afternoon walk. I could go on and on and on (in fact I will later) but that's what it all boils down to. Things which should have had more build up & time to examine are just dumped on us all at once in an hour. For comparison, just watch this episode back to back with Abandon All Hope... ("http://www.su pernaturalwiki. com/index.php?t itle=5.10_Aband on_All_Hope..." ) which at least ran some threads & build up through the season.

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We still haven’t been given any evidence that she’s truly evil or wrong.
Well... not until she ups and toasts a bunch of people with lightning for no reason other than she didn't like their answers.

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He was basically told resistance is futile and got one impressive display of power proving that. So what now?
GO GET DEATH'S DAMN SCYTHE THAT HE HELD IN HIS HANDS JUST 10 EPISODES AGO AND FINISH HER ALREADY! There is NO explanation from the show why this would not work.

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His plan is still TBD and you have to admit the murky intentions makes for some rather exciting speculation. When it does all play out, please make it clever show. Please make it clever.
As my expectations keep collapsing, I'm getting more and more convinced it's going to be letting Mike & Lucifer out for a beatdown. Assuming they even remember Michael.

Don't laugh. This was the same show that gave us the line from Dean, "You're the king of the joint, don't you have a key?" WHEN AN ENTIRE YEAR OF YOUR LIFE WAS SPENT DEALING WITH THE 66 SEALS TO BREAK LUCIFER OUT OF JAIL, DEAN! IT'S WHEN YOU MET CASTIEL, HOW CAN YOU SERIOUSLY NOT REMEMBER THIS? (I'm getting really concerned that the blows to the heads are giving the brothers serious brain damage. Like... I'm not sure if I'm joking any more about that.)

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I get that today people are very PC and oversensitive about plenty of issues, but domestic violence and rape is a real issue and concern for many people out there. Jokes do hit too close to home at times.
Yeah... but he's SATAN. Do we really need to have the Lord of Evil be not too evil ("http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooEvil")? (if the answer is yes, then obviously we just shouldn't have Lucifer)

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consent issues with Castiel having sex with a possessed April in “I’m No Angel”
REAPERS DON'T POSSESS PEOPLE! Damn, amazing how much the problem would be solved if they had remembered @^&#$& canon!

YES I'M STILL MAD ABOUT SEASON 9!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-16 00:55
True. Dean held in his hands Deaths scythe after he killed Death (never not funny) and what? Then dropped it on the floor, checking on Sam. Then when all seemed safe (relatively so) Dean gets hit with the cure spell and drops to his knees. After that Sam helps him up, they gather themselves and leave. WITHOUT THE SCYTHE! WHYYYYYYYYY!!!! Then the Darkness makes its appearance, all Hell breaks loose... I can forgive them for not turning around and grabbing it up as they were a tad bit preoccupied at that point but now? What's to stop them from taking a trip down Mexico way - at least restaurant wise - and snatch it up? I mean it's probably just collecting dust lying there on the floor...
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-12-16 11:12
Yeah! Ok, to be fair I guess I can handwave away that the characters cannot remember every detail of every conversation they've ever had such, after all I can't remember every word told me five days ago, much less five years ago - but sitting down with DEATH HIMSELF for the first time? Actually hearing him say, "I will reap God"? THAT should stick in your head.

But this is apparently Dean's thoughts: "Hmm... Death said he would reap God. We're dealing with God's sister. We just had Death's scythe... Man I just can't figure out any way to solve this season's problems, Sam."

I mean, the theology is bad enough this season, but I can kind of roll with it - I just wish they would explain how Death is supposed to fit in now with the God-Darkness siblings.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-17 09:41
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But this is apparently Dean's thoughts: "Hmm... Death said he would reap God. We're dealing with God's sister. We just had Death's scythe... Man I just can't figure out any way to solve this season's problems, Sam."
Oh oh oh, you have just cheered me up immeasurably! I have extrapolated from seeing Billie in the trailer for the next episode as 'Dean is going to round up Cas, go find Billie, have the three of them transported through Purgatory (since Billie is a reaper, I assume you don't have to be rogue to be ABLE to get to Purgatory) to get to hell (collecting Benny on the way - please NO!) and rescue Sam by having Castiel agree to being possessed instead. Because it is the sort of godawful storyline the last couple of seasons of this show would come up with. And there is no part of that story that doesn't suck so the idea is driving me to drink.

HOWEVER if the scythe is still around then maybe Dean is still off doing his own thing, he realizes that the scythe would work - since he knows a blade won't - and has worked out that it isn't still where they left it so likely a reaper must have it. So he goes and asks Billie for it (and she gives him a flea in the ear, no doubt, since she gave Sam one). This would mean that Sam gets his own autonomy and the opportunity to resist Lucifer under his own steam and maybe he DOES have a plan B ... oh yes, that would be much better.

Actually, one thing, I am ALL for Cas to take on Lucifer I think Misha would make an excellent Lucifer for a chunk of the season. I just don't want it to even remotely be connected to getting Sam back from Lucifer, it needs to be Cas's own decision.

Thank you all. :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-17 10:25
I too like the idea of Cas saying yes to Lucifer. Basically, the writers don't seem to have a clue as to what to do with Cas now. But having him vessel Lucifer keeps Misha on the show and actually gives him a storyline that is more than watching Netflix back in the bunker. I wouldn't even mind if he did it to save Sam, although I prefer Sam to save himself.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-17 12:36
Misha not playing Cas for a while would improve the shows ability to tell the story it is trying to tell while still including Misha as an actor. It is mostly upside. And I assume it would be done in a way where Lucifer couldn't torture Cas the way he would if he possessed Sam. Of course it means Lucifer gets out of the cage and that is bad...

Yes Sam needs to rescue himself. Or at least be the main instigator. Though it WOULD be interesting if it turned out that Lucifer is now able to take Sam as a vessel without permission because of the screwing around that was done to Sam by him being fooled into being possessed (since it wasn't real permission) by Gadreel and the ensuing rewiring Dean had Crowley do to get him free.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-17 05:22
The scythe was disintegrated along with Death.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-17 05:21
"Journey down into Hell to call up Lucifer? Apparently just an afternoon walk."

Considering they literally had Crowley leading them, of course it was easy.

"GO GET DEATH'S DAMN SCYTHE THAT HE HELD IN HIS HANDS JUST 10 EPISODES AGO AND FINISH HER ALREADY! There is NO explanation from the show why this would not work."

Obviously missed that the scythe disintegrated along with Death after he was killed.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-12-17 07:43
Was that on screen? I may have blinked & missed it. (if you've got a screen cap, share) They should have done a better job establishing it especially as the only other example we have of weaponized beings (angels) the weapons don't go away when the owner is killed.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-17 10:21
http://31.media.tumblr.com/28cf94b0fe82a973d6a1f0281334f0fc/tumblr_nooh0oBrC61qlu8two2_500.gif
Death's death
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-17 10:26
Aaannnnd my squee gets squished .... ok I will go back to complaining so. :o
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-17 13:19


Well there is still this one.
eilf
# eilf 2015-12-17 13:46
True. Plus New!Death would probably have their own.

(Also there is the amulet to locate god possibly still in play. And the super-powered boy)

Ok Maybe it isn't hopeless
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-17 10:26
Doh!
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-12-17 07:43
discard