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Why don’t I start with something positive? After all, whether I like it or not, this was actually one of Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming’s better scripts. “O’Brother Where Art Thou?” was a big improvement over last year’s “The Things We Left Behind.” There, I said it. Still, I'm not sure what my true feelings are. It wasn't a brilliant hour. In the end, it left me cold. Maybe because when I look at the predicaments that both Sam and Dean were left, I'm not on the edge of my seat blown away. I'm trying to process how freaking depressing the whole thing was. How unfair. How no matter what these guys do, the universe is screwing them with their pants on. Again. There are only so many distressed looks and single man tears I can take.
The same problem that plagues Brad and Eugenie scripts in general really hurt this episode. The dialogue was awful. The pacing was atrocious. The plotting once again inspired more “WTF” reactions than actual awe. But it wasn’t a total train wreck (were there any train whistles in this one?) Luckily the acting delivered, Rowena very wasn’t annoying, and the direction was gorgeous. I just wish that there was better material to work with.
The Good Parts
What did work was strangely the plot. No, the plotting of the episode itself was a bit of a mess, causing very choppy movement from one scene to another, but what we were given did actually flow and fit with the mythology of the season. Go figure. I did buy Amara’s frustration with not being able to find God and that whole theme of “Where is God?” played out beautifully, especially with the constant shots of religious symbols through the episode (great job Mr. Singer).Amara’s alienation is something I was hoping we’d get to see and I even speculated on it a few reviews back. From her perspective, she should be amazed how people could worship her brother when he is isn’t around to hear prayers or help people out. Yeah, get in line sister. She’s resorted to lashing out against his worshippers in order to get his attention. Still, he doesn’t come. I loved the deep questions of why believe in a God that isn’t here for us and insists on letting us suffer. The concept of faith was completely lost on Amara and no wonder. Dean had to spell it out for her.
“Some people find comfort in that. Golden rule, brother’s keeper. It is his universe.”
I’m also impressed with arranging the meeting of Sam and Lucifer in the Limbo section of Hell. By Sam not going to the actual cage, the story doesn’t get bogged down with the continuity questions of “Where is Michael/Adam?” It’s not time to address those questions right now because the episode is already loaded. For the record, I think Adam died and is in Heaven because his vessel burned away by the holy fire in “Swan Song.” After all, Jimmy died there too after Castiel exploded.
The VFX of the cage was very cool, with the warding symbols and surrounding fire. Using the “Book of the Damned” was perfect and it’s the only plausible explanation to pull off this meeting between Sam and Lucifer. After all, that wasn’t around in season six when access to the cage literally involved an act of Death, so turns out the introduction of that book was a clever way to go in a certain direction with mythology that was bound by prior canon.
I also really liked Crowley and Rowena in this one too. They seemed to be a lot more comfortable together, especially when Sam and Lucifer were talking. They’ve forgotten about killing each other right now, making the relationship easier. I really loved Crowley playing cordial host with Lucifer, offering insincere compliments, and Luci playing along, even though it’s so clear how much they both hate each other. So well done.
Which brings me to the grand return of Mark Pellegrino, and it was oh so grand. There is no greater villain in the history of this show than Lucifer, and Pellegrino deserves all the credit. Yes, he was given the best lines in this episode, but it’s all about delivery and he was amazing. He really scared me in his attempt to manipulate Sam, using the “word of God” to get Sam to offer himself as a vessel. Quote of the episode goes to Luci:
“You have been working with Crowley. You passed certifiable three off-ramps ago.”
The Not So Good Parts
If you notice, “O’Brother Where Art Thou?” had a crap load of character interaction. The big talk between Dean and Amara, the big showdown between Lucifer and Sam, Crowley and Rowena reuniting, and the numerous little side chats. Sam and Rowena, Dean and Sam, Crowley and Sam, Amara and the religious nut, Amara and the Priest, Dean and the hotdog vendor (I’m kidding). Anyway, in order to pull off this much character interaction in one episode, a very key component needs to be executed well. DIALOGUE. It has to be interesting. It has to move. It has to reveal something that entices the audience enough, but doesn’t confuse the crap out of them. THAT is where this episode had its most spectacular failure.Think about it, why oh why would you allow such a dialogue/exposition heavy script to a pair of writers that notoriously struggle with words on a page? Okay, they struggle with everything, but conversations are their absolute worst area. Its best to just leave blank pages and let these very skilled actors use facial acting do their jobs. Because the dialogue was so bad, the pacing immensely suffered too. There were a lot of long boring conversations that went nowhere. This is a midseason finale and expectation is a brisk and dramatic action thriller. It’s especially expected when the previous hour, “Arrow,” delivered that in spades. If it wasn’t for the great actors and director, this wouldn’t have been any better than bad community theater.
There were also several elements that played out too cryptically, so much so that instead of being excited about what’s to come, I’m scratching my head and feeling more lost than anxious. For one, what did Rowena do? Did she intentionally cause the warding to fail, or did she notice something was wrong and got her and Crowley out of there pronto. You know what would help me decide what happened one way or another? Some better clues. Writers usually leave them. Maybe Rowena was laughing over what she was being told by Sam, Dean and Crowley? Or looking at the symbols earlier? Nope, just not working for me. I’m only left to wildly speculate, so here’s something out of left field. I think of all the times that Sam has treated her poorly, he had a double cross coming.
Going back to the very poor dialogue, or the poor handling of Sam’s character in general, why would Sam be such a dick to Crowley when he’s there with him in Hell, after Crowley did this huge favor for him? Sam’s a little more diplomatic than that and usually keeps his feelings to himself. Second, Rowena is a very, very powerful witch. The chains again? He should be building allies not alienating them. Chains and blatant mistrust isn’t going to work every single time she’s needed, which seems to be a lot. This is the third time he’s gone to Rowena. Oh Sam, you had to know that was going to bite you. I think it did. Sam is just not this arrogant. But that’s an issue that found it’s roots last season, so perhaps Brad and Eugenie were actually following canon. It’s poor canon, but nonetheless, it’s what we were given.
Comments
One question though: I don't know as much about the writers' comments in the fandom as you do, so maybe I misunderstood something, but didn't Lucifer explicitly say that he raped Sam in Season 7? He said "You're my bitch in every sense of the word," as well as the "The rapier wit- the wittier rape" line in "Repo Man". How can you interpret that differently?
Quote:Oh yes, that was the Ben Edlund episode, "Hello Cruel World" I mentioned in the review. Definitely, he did make it implied canon.
I questioned the timing of such a line, not the use. That was the cliffhanger! Really? Sam's about to get manhandled by Lucifer? He's in tears! That's scary? When Edlund did it, it was a sinister line in the middle of a scene where Lucifer was clearly trying to get into Sam's head. I'm not saying that it hasn't been implied before, just that the way it was done here just wasn't right. They made the focus on that instead of Lucifer doing something else to scare Sam like burning him or something. Repo Man was an ideal example of how to end Lucifer haunting Sam.
The Sam and Lucifer parts were the best out of all...It could have been better if not for cutting to Rowena and Crowley's convo.
The Amara and Dean Convo was marginally better than RO-Cro convo but that too was unnecessarily interjecting in the Sam-Luci convo.
I am extremely happy with Jared's performance ..brilliant.
Mark P and Jared have very good interactions and chemistry...I just hope the dialogues were more serious.
Amara's beef with god was the second best thing.Even now we have amara's side only but her anger towards god ad the scenes where she talks about this were well done.
Sam-crowley -Rowena was the next best thing.followed By amara Dean and then Row-crow.
I did not find Dean-Amara convo to be very interesting...b ut this is what I have seen recently ..the mytharc portrayal when Dean is concerned is very boring.MoC had so much potential but the story was boring...I just hope that the latter half of this season gives dean an interesting Myth arc story.
Now the thing which I am most excited is how they are going to go with the next episode...Oh Sam where art thou? How are you going to come out of this "pickle".
From the beginning, Sam's story has seemed very Job ("https://en.wi kipedia.org/w/i ndex.php?title= Job_(biblical_f igure)&oldid=69 3254436")-like to me. Why do bad things happen to really good people? Because of a wager between two Old Testament dudes. I doubt the parallel between Job and Sam is intentional but still think it would be great if Sam got a chance to confront God like Job did. Supernatural would need to use better dialogue writers than the ones for this episode though. Sam's dialogue was very, very stilted in O Brother.
The dialogue was awful. Too many things not said, and the rest wasn't said well at all. Ah well, I have been hopes for the next episode. Dialogue is actually Andrew Dabb's biggest strength as a writer.
Thanks for the comment!
SO, to Amara and Dean.. well that is a match made in Hell. She is the first because like Death she was there before God in the Bible it says there was darkness and God created light ... I will use the Bible as well as an example . I used to be a Sunday school teacher and everyone has an oppinion on traslations , let me say this . but I found this interesting in years of study and other religious texts. God said in the commandments You shall have no other Gods before me . He himself admits that there are other Gods. HOLD THE PHONE!!!! yes so knowing that God is vengeful and wrathful ... we can assume he is also egotistical and like Amara said commanded his creation to worship him to give order. Maybe she is kind and means no harm to creation , but she does want a life and her soul mate happens to be Dean. We know he is special to God .. he was pulled from perdition, saved on the plane , given chance after chance to get things right .. I think of Dean and Sam as Job in the Bible . How much will it take to get these guys to falter . Instead they keep repeating the lesson that all mankind needs to learn and God like a puppet master uses us to play out . That lesson is what do we do for love ... love for family , friends, strangers in trouble. We are supposed to help . We arent promised rewards. So God cant do this himself he is above human emotion ... he himself is like Amara and living out scenarios through Sam and Dean. So back to Dean and Amara. I dont think she tried to suck his soul out , she in her innocence was trying to get a kiss and was waiting on him ...first kiss and all. She needs him for the future . Can she give him immortality and possibly make him a God as well if they join . Hmm. Dean knows and feels himself complete when he is around her . He feels his peace something he has never felt ... the quietness. Its his home he feels, but not thinks... Both Dean and Sam will have to battle themselves with their inner man. Soul vs. Mind. They know family comes first they , they always chose family. So God has let this major distractions come into their lives to let them wage war inside themselves and to see if they can pull themselves out . The human delima. So we will see. I think Amara went to Heaven to do battle in retaliation . She knows they will come after Dean if they know she needs him , so strike first . Same deal with Rowena .. she is giving Sam to Lucifer to keep him safe and give Lucifer a vessel in case he does get out so she can use him . Women will be taking over this plot line . They have their own agendas. Rowena knew her magic is not strong and it would fail, and she knows Lucifer ..he is the witches God and master . She wants to take over or be queen of Hell. Kill Crowley and there ya go .
Crowley, oh my he is the master of HEll and plays the game well. He is five steps ahead of everyone. You notice how he keeps telling everyone ...he hears things . Hell is filled with some of the oldest and feared enemies of mankind and God..I think this story has been played out a million times with other victims in Hell...Saul, David..Judas they were given chances and yet they were adulters , murders, liars . Crowley knows what Rowena is up too with Lucifer and he knows Sam wont say yes, he has already been through hell..he is stronger now and yes its scary but he passed that test except for the fear. Crowley is betting on the boys. He knows how to get rid of both Lucifer and Amara and it will be the boys who have to find it in themselves , by themselves this time to fight the one thing that hurts them . They have to learn how to love themselves and trust themselves enough to be alone . Crowley is hoping probably Dean will come around to him again and help him run hell or be buddies, and Sam is full of faith ...he will stay good no matter the trial of fire and torture, he already went through it .
Now for the last scene .. the writers we know are not that good and not that deep and disturbing look at the beginning of the show , poor writing and hurriedly done. When Lucifer offers top bunk or bottom ..he is literally doing that . In prison there are two bunks bolted to the walls you need to choose. When he asked or they could share , he meant simply this you could say yes and I posses you and we together in one body share a bunk. There was no rape inuendos .. somebody is pulling everyones leg and just spouting off crap to get ratings and talk.. even the looks of the actors went with the lines as simple and stated . Sam crying was the fact that he knows what lies ahead the torture of listening to Lucifer all the time , the fact that when he imagined him for so long he knew he gave in and talked to him . Sam knows he was a massive vegetable and scorched soul ... it was destroyed and he has only just had some peace for a little while and now it will start again . He also is shedding a tear to be let down by God and he is questioning himself if he can hold on. If you havent been there then I dont expect anyone to understand . This is deep ..but the battle now undelying the show is the boys fighting whats inside them so they can kill the tormentors . If they succeed, which Crowley is betting on , all will be well in the world once again. He has his bets on the right horses. The show was good FX wise , great job on Lucifers eyes and lighting ...can we make Lucifer look even more evil and sly at the same time. Bad shots of the face to face cut aways, reminded me of Weird Science the boys in the shower or car 54 . i fussed to the writers that this episode could be held off and this plot line could be carried out for another Season ..but they are determined it looks like to finish it up at the end of this one. Which is good we can speculate on where the road will lead in S12. . But this season is the boys being given more than they can handle and to see if they come out the other side ... God taking the armchair and letting his children learn as he observes and wonders at his creations. So I agree with all of your ideas except the ending ..which if your writing its tried and true "Keep it simple stupid". The writers have an underlying current under each season and unless you read under those lines you dont see it . There is pattern and maddness to these episodes . We only get to ride the roller coaster and glean off the top the initial moral delima , but under that is something else . Example last season every episode was about something vs its opposite . every one and unless you dwelled into it deep you would'nt have seen it . You had to get away from the acting . Example the con worm dry vs. wet , ,good souls vs bad , etc.etc. So there is my comment a long one all be it ..but here is hoping we get Jenny and Robert back as main writers and let them handle the story line .
Quote:Now that makes sense to me! Great theory. I think these writers used a double entendre, but how a fan chooses to see something is what makes this fandom so damned interesting. No one views it the same way. I also agree that part of that tear was the disappointment of being let down by God. That's why I hope that God will be the one to come along and pull him out next time. I doubt that will happen, but wouldn't that be great?
I'll probably have some more clever answers to your responses tomorrow, but it is late here. I just wanted to mention how much I enjoyed reading your opinions.
Since Sam's visions started after he prayed and they were of the cage I suppose that is why he jumped to that conclusion. The only vision that Sam had that wasn't in the cage was the one with Not-John. That one I don't think came from Lucifer. I think it came from someone else.
So he asked the question, "Why now, why did I die?" God told him he only created possibilities. Free will of man is why things happen. He sets up something, turns his head, and it goes a different way. There is no plan. He didn't create the gun that ended his life, man did. He also didn't create the medical technology that his friends were using to save his life (which they did at the end). So the message was, man controls his destiny. It can be brutal, but it can be miraculous as well. If you watch the next episode, after Dr. Fiscus is brought back from he dead, he's so depressed from the whole thing because knowing that everything is random wasn't much of a comfort. Eventually he got over it.
So yeah, I do wonder, if Sam and Dean were to meet God, would they get the same answer? Does this mean Dean was always right, he is in control of his own destiny? Is that the life Amara threatens to take away? There are many possibilities as to where this could go. Fingers crossed it ends up in the hands of the better writers.
The dialogue. God the dialogue! The pacing!!! The stupidly written angels attack Amara scene preceded by the mind numbingly boring angelic meeting scene. Typical Nep Duo. For the love of everything holy, you would think that they would recognize the fact that fandom considers these their signature/modus operandi/standa rd operating procedure as a bad thing. Bad. How many scripts have they written to date? You'd think that they would improve just thru the act of sheer repetition! WHY do they give them important episodes. Okay. I feel better. I did like the episode for the most part tho. I hope that they kick the Dean/Amara storyline up several notches. Enough with the mystery, let's see some answers/action. And by action I don't mean sex with conception either. And general sex for sexs sake between them really makes little sense either.
Yes there was not just a train whistle but sirens in a few different scenes. Our beloved train sound has not left us yet.
I guess my point is that different people will take offense at different things, and some issues are more delicate to some than to others - so the whole aspect of 'rape' in a horror show like SPN doesn't bother me, much like I can accept that SPN plays with Judeo-Christian theology the way it does, as difficult as this episode was to watch at points.
Nevertheless, I've never been one to overly analyze our show, so I found it a mostly entertaining and unnerving hour. :) Peace!
No, I don't think that was my point at all actually. There are horrors. They have always suffered in horrible situations. But what I was saying that they were making potential rape a joke, all while Sam was standing there in tears, and that ended up being the cliffhanger! Very inappropriate. Remember the ending to "Repo Man?" Now THAT was a real closing horrible, scary moment. I wasn't uncomfortable. I was slightly (and I do mean slightly) offended, and definitely put off by how clueless the writers were for going that way.
I think a major problem with the Nep Duo is they come from another age of TV writing. When fans weren't so engaged in the episodes and continuity and a lot of scripts were throw away filler. I don't know if you have seen TV shows from the 70's and numerous ones from the 80's, but they didn't put a lot of quality into TV back then. NBC was the first to bring quality shows to TV in the early 80's and that eventually became the standard. When I see a lot of the shows Brad and Eugenie wrote on, they were mostly shows you would watch for background noise while doing other things around the house. Procedurals and fluff programs. Dialogue is a rough art and something newer writers have to be very, very skilled with in order to earn jobs. The standard for young writers breaking into the business is super tough! Other way to earn jobs is by having connections, and that's how older writers do it. So that explains that! They probably also read my criticisms and go, "Yeah, well we have long careers in TV writing and you don't!" It's a fair point. :)
All I can hold onto is Jarred's interview where he said Ep 9 & Ep 10 are his favourites with so many plot twists and turns :o:o:o PS I didn't like the bunk buddy talk either / wrong place wrong time
And I completely agree with you about Dean. I'm finding this whole situation really annoying. I mean, I hated the MOC storyline and I'm glad that Dean is okay and he's more Dean-like, but watching him be a zombie around this chick is not fun either. I will say that I asked my husband, who is a casual viewer, what he thought was going on with Dean and why he isn't telling Sam and he said that he thinks he's ashamed of how she makes him feel. She keeps saying things about bliss and their bond, and he thinks Dean doesn't like the fact that she makes him feel good. He actually said, "Dean doesn't like feeling good." Lol, I thought that was funny.
And Alice hit it on the nail with Sam. There are only so many blows to your self esteem that you can take. I am always amazed at his resilience, but coming back from this one will be super human. I'm hoping that maybe Lucifer is lying to him, but this show doesn't usually treat the boys that kindly. My fear is that after this, Sam will be so afraid to trust himself that he'll just go back to season 5 all over again. And I won't even talk about some of the stuff I've seen posted from "haters" who think Sam deserves this. I would hesitate to even call those people "fans". It's like saying Dean deserved to be a demon because he was stupid enough to take on the MOC and fight Metatron on his own. I'm betting all of those people who were going on about poor Dean becoming his own worst nightmare would be apoplectic over that.
I'm still loving this season, though. Do we know who wrote the next one?
May I also throw out a thought here. We havn't yet seen any reprucussions for Dean killing Death My thought --
Amara tried to suck Dean's soul that was obvious - her expression was bewilderment ( then a kiss instead) We know little about Death except he was the boss of the rippers.
What if by killing Death Dean took on some sort of power or protection from Death and his soul was protected in some way. Do you understand what I'm sorta saying ????
Quote:
Whats a season without suffering on this show? This show knocks the boys down every season! I am one of those who would be disappointed if all the visions were from god. The thought of god giving Sam clear indications where he should go seems a bit odd. The last time god helped was getting them on the plane and now he's giving Sam a lot of visual clues? Not buying it. I think god is weakened and can't intervene often. That and maybe he's trying to be as neutral as possible?
Look on the bright side Alice, we have a good writer next episode no?
Quote:I guess Cas being able to see what he saw is possible but what would he do with that info? Who would know anything? Only Sam, Lucifer, Micheal and possibly god knew what happened in the cage.
Quote:Why are they still there? Hasn't anyone complained? Haven't the writers, past and current show runners realised what a terrible writing team they are? I swear if there's a S12 and this duo are kicked off I'm throwing a party.
The universe doesn't like Sam Winchester and I'm not sure how he gets out of this mess without becoming a drooling and/or babbling and/or catatonic mess. Unlike his intentions in S4, Sam's intentions were good this time around. Unless by some miracle he has a backup plan up his sleeves (and yes, archangels can be slowed down with holy oil and other things). On the bright side, at least he got laid a few episodes ago.
Still not sure about Dean's connection/link to Amara; this episode provided few answers and more questions. Wasn't sure if Amara couldn't consume Dean's soul, or changed her mind, or maybe consuming his soul is the final step in them "becoming one".
So, with Sam's confidence and faith shaken to its core, and with Dean compromised by his link to Amara, I'm not sure what the Winchesters can do. They sure could have used Castiel this episode.
I also think/hope that we will not see a Sam who breaks from this, or else the character development and growth we have seen in him this year will be meaningless. After Sully expressed his faith and belief in Sam and in Sam's strength, I think Sam will draw upon that and his extreme smarts and somehow defeat or outwit Lucifer in a battle of wills and wits. He will find the strength to deal with this latest horror. He beat Lucy once and he can do it again. How awesome a plot turn that will be! It is time for a Swan Song moment when one or both brothers demonstrates why they are indeed the only ones who can beat the Darkness. And that's my position until the show says otherwise, which will probably happen in the next ep.
And it was such improvement from last season.
I guess I decided to just enjoy the show for what it is and not over analyse it. Besides english is not my maternel language so I may have not been so much bothered by the dialogues.
Glad you enjoyed it!
We are left with Sam in the cage.... Rowena leading Crowley down a set of stairs acting as if she was waiting for the right moment to make a move, but what move?.... The angels smiting Amara or did they?.... Is Amara in heaven now??..... Dean back in a park still under her influence or isn't he??....
It just feels like a bunch of lego blocks thrown on the floor with no real foundation to build off of. The events were a little two disconnected. Does Lucifer even care about Amara? Does Amara even know Lucifer is in a cage?! Does she care? What is the connection/rela tionship/impact of these two entities with each other? Is this just like a "double your villains, double your pain" kind of thing or what? lol. I feel like if Amara had mentioned Lucifer before or if Lucifer maybe made it more clear in that cage what his history is with Amara, then I would be more satisfied - then this all would have been a build up to something or a climax to something built. But right now, it just all feels like an excuse to bring Lucifer back into the fold. I can't see any substantial plot line or story arc that would require Lucifer (and not Michael, since he is more powerful, no???) to be a part of the story now.
I'm actually very hopeful that we will get answers in January and things will come together.
One thing I feel like I learned about Amara in this episode, is that she's not hell bent on gaining power over the world. She doesn't seem that interested in destroying it either. Right now, at least, her only issue is with her brother, God. She's killing people only in the hopes of gaining his attention. I think she'll kill the whole planet if she has to, and not care, but only if she has to. Her motives aren't to destroy, destroy, destroy. If God made an appearance when she tried praying, she would have taken things up with him then and there. She's only killing to get his attention. But death will never get God's attention because he knows that when people die, they go to heaven so, from his perspective, death isn't 'bad'. He's an eternal celestial being, of course he'll have a different viewpoint on death than we would. That's how I see it anyways.
So, with that in mind, at this point, i'm just waiting for Amara to go away. She's only a threat to humans and earth by default. She has no motives towards us. I guess I just don't find the character or the concept of her as interesting as I could. I have no problem with her if wants to fight with God. She's entitled. She wants to kill us to get to him, well then we gotta try to stop her. But her issues and her story are just not 'our' story, so I just really don't care. lol.
The scenes between Mark P and Jared were riveting. Definitely the high light of the episode. Sam's terror and Lucifer's snark...I really missed the snark. I also didn't have any issue with Lucifer's remark about being "bunk buddies". Everyone was thinking of it anyway. That final look on Sam's face as he realized that he had been tricked by Lucifer again and that God had abandoned him just killed me. Hopefully he gets rescued soon.
I have a theory on Sam's visions. All of Sam's visions except for one was of him in the cage. All of the cage visions happened when Dean wasn't near by. The only vision that Sam had that wasn't in the cage was in the Impala with Dean. And that vision had a clear message and it wasn't going to Lucifer. I think someone else (God, Gabriel whoever) is talking to Sam too. It will take both "brothers" to defeat the Darkness, not Michael or Lucifer or demons or angels. I hope Sam gets another vision that helps him realize that.
Unfortunately Sam getting stuck in the cage was kind of telegraphed before the episode but I am hoping our payoff will be one epic hug when Dean gets him back out.
The Amara/Dean story line is going nowhere. How many more times are we going to see Amara whining about her lot and Dean staring at her (in a trance? enthralled? confused? I can't ever tell)? Enough already. Why is she bonded to Dean who no longer bears the Mark? Why not Lucifer who presumably does (and has beef with God)? Wouldn't she be able to sense Lucifer? Wouldn't she have the power to release him? I thought Amara kind of turned into more of a petulant teenager as an adult than she was as a teen. So she decides to break Gods toys? I get she wants to talk to God but I thought she read all about human suffering already and knew God doesn't care about human carnage or angels for that matter. Why would she think killing a few people would get his attention. I don't know I can't figure out what she wants, create a world of Stepford people or a M&G with her brother or destroy the planet...who knows. I'm beginning to not care just get on with it.
On second watch I think the episode works better if you don't dissect it too much. Like I said my biggest issue was with the melodramatic score. So unlike Supernatural. Sam's story this season is the most interesting. I wish Dean's story would start to come together as well. Cas? Yeah best not to dissect it too much.
I'm speculating that since the Sam story took front and center the first half of the season, the Dean story will take front and center the second half. That does seem to be the MO for a while now. Half on one brother, half on another. I don't like it, but that's what's been happening.
I hope Sam doesn't disappear in the second half. I don't think that Dean has disappeared in the first half just that whatever his story is right now seems to be stalled.
I'm slightly more optimistic this year because they've done such a good job of balancing it so far, but I keep waiting for the rug to be pulled out.
I am not outraged by the rape insinuation because it is the type of insinuation/ subtext that SPN is noted for. The bunk buddies comment was just a means of terrifying Sam in realizing he is trapped with Lucifer and all the horrors, torture, atrocities that come with it. I do not think it meant that Lucifer was just gunning for violent rape/sex. Also others such as Dean, Castiel have used the phrase you are my bitch or your his bitch to connote general power and control over another and not rape. For the record, I always thought that the storylines of Sam and Dean being tortured in hell, hung on meat hooks, ripped to pieces and being put back together was the least credible aspect of their history, and destroyed their basic humanity because no human being could function after such an experience. This plot of Sam returning to the cage has been in the making since Swan Song and Sam's build-up of this season. It should have been the dynamic main event in this episode, the intense focus, a circling of David and Goliath. I despised the fact that Dean was not there, or on his way or had a damn good reason for his absence. It was out of character. Dean did not want Sam to go on this mission and Sam had just told Dean he was unsure he was ready. Whenever these two write a script characters are separated or killed for contrived reasons and this script is no different. Dean apparently did not take Sam's call during such a crucial time because he was distracted by Amara. This is not credible because he later without any indication of why, he manages to break his trance-like state to stab Amara. I also thought the presence and comic like dialogue of Rowena and Crowley (Rowena's lust and motherhood comments ) on the side lines as spectators to the cage drama was distracting and belittling to the intensity and magnitude of this life altering event in Sam's journey.
In this episode Dean's relationship/ connection to the Darkness just got as confusing and inconsistent as the MOC/ Demon Dean story. Can Dean control himself around Amara or Not? Dean could not take a crucial call from his brother but he can stab her. I thought the stabbing was not credible because we had no reason to believe or no groundwork to indicate Dean was capable of doing it. We were led to believe Dean was highly protective of Amara and in their last meeting his inability to harm her was only broken when she took a shot at Sam. So the whole need to protect Amara when out the window.
I am hoping that we do get answers to other questions: Did Amara choose to not consume Dean's soul or was not able to do it? If the latter, what makes Dean so special ? What is the nature of their connection because it certainly took a step away from the innocent protective mode to a reciprocated kiss. Why would a God want to have some type of union with a mere mortal (yeah besides the fact he is Dean Winchester). She also said she cannot be resisted. Does this apply to only Dean or others? If this is true, she certainly takes away FREE WILL.
Also, it would be out of character for Sam to allow Dean to confront Amara on his own after he learned from Crowley that Amara has a thing for Dean.
I think it was odd and not credible that Castiel was not present , consulted or even mentioned in this pivotal episode.
In regard to Amara, these two writers turned her into a what NJSPNFAN called a petulant brat; screaming, sarcastic, petty. I just wish she would have gone about her search and wrath for her brother in a more intelligent, menacing purposeful manner.
Quote: She means that she is GOD just the female Dark version. God in the real world is referred to the ALPHA and Omega, the beginning and the end, always was and always will be.
And, I guess, I'm taking the mythology they are writing for the show this season to be just as literal. In the beginning, there was Darkness (God's sister). God had to "destroy her" (aka the Big Bang which was a fairly big explosion, lol) to create the Universe, not just earth. At least, that's what I remember them saying in the beginning episodes of this season. And, in the end, when/if the Universe ends, there will be Darkness again.
My apologies if that was all too literal and unnecessarily scientific, but I'm just saying that is what came to my mind when she spoke. I don't think she thinks of herself as God or even as a God. I don't think she has any interest in expressing or demonstrating of even using her power. She's just pissed at her brother and we are just stuck in the middle of that sibling rivalry. I think she is exactly as powerful as God, but God's powers are designed to 'create' while hers are designed to 'destroy'. Just thoughts.
I also never meant to imply that God destroyed her. They said that rvhad to "sacrifice" her, at the beginning of the season from what I remember, so whatever that means. I really don't even understand her "prison".
Was she locked away inside the mark?! So when the mark was destroyed, she was freed. So then as long as there was someone on the planet that bore the mark, she was imprisoned, right? So, Cain was like her warden for all those years?!? Just confusing to me. lol
Where is the entertainment value in that? Well it is entertaining watching Dean getting kissed I suppose ... I said to someone the other day that they write as if all Deangirls are hedonists and all Samgirls are living out their masochism by having an emotional connection to Sam. So, Sam cannot die without permission, he is not allowed make his own decisions, any decisions he makes will screw him further and he will be blamed endlessly for them, and when he dies he will be sent to the void (actually at this stage that must seem like a promise more than a threat).
Good job show, this is really fun and enjoyable way to produce entertainment. *applause*
Having said that everyone did a really good job of their acting roles in the show (including Ruthie Connell who, I think, rocks). Jared is really getting a chance to prove what an emotionally connected actor he is and how great he is at pulling off the emotions no matter what storyline nonsense gets him to that point.
I don't think that it is these writers fault that the rape 'jokes' are there. The rape 'jokes' have been ongoing in the situation between Sam and Lucifer since season 6. Lucifer / Sam's memory of Lucifer has on at least one occasion made a totally unambiguous reference to Sam getting raped. Regardless, rape in this context is a part of torture, if Sam doesn't get raped but instead gets hooks though his eyelids that won't be any better.
I am vaguely thinking that Sam, while optimistic that it was God, prepared for the fact that it was Lucifer - there is a giveaway in the middle of the episode (if it was deliberate) that the visions were from Lucifer and not God. But honestly I think that 6 weeks of just being utterly depressed that every time Sam makes a decision the show is going to make sure it is defined as the wrong decision, followed by Sam needing rescuing, followed by 'everything is back to normal' with additional digs at Sam for being fooled is what we are facing.
Can Weems come too? :) I really loved the zanna and hope we see more of them.
This season to date with the exception of a couple of episodes has seemed like it was making an attempt to make up for some of the damage done to the SPN universe as a whole, it has definitely been better than last season. I would really like to think that the writers have come-up with a coherent storyline that doesn't end the way whichever writer gets the end of the arc wants it to (ie the end is plotted by the last writer- that is not how serialised TV is supposed to work ... and in fact it DOESN'T work). Because the story for the past 2 1/2 seasons has borne more than a slight resemblance to this
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk[/video]
The problem is, Brad and Eugenie are on their own little island. They get away with writing what they want and tend not to share notes or play by the rules like others. They get to keep their jobs no matter what they do. So when I see them introducing canon, I'm very suspicious that what they're writing is going to stick. I think most of the other writers say "that's nice" and go on doing what they think makes sense. This year though, there seems to be a better sense of order. No, Brad and Eugenie are still in their own world, but the rest are at least comparing notes. That's why I'm hopeful too, because except for annoy blips like this episode and "The Bad Seed," it's all making sense.
So, in the hands of a better writer, would Sam have been put into such a depressing situation? Or is this a setup for the next writer to show how strong Sam is and how he'll overcome Lucifer. He did it once before. Will that be believable though? For me, the only plausible way out of this is if God himself rescues Sam from the cage, or Lucifer lets him go. That way, Sam's faith is validated. Sam is being rewarded for overcoming his fears. If Dean ends up rescuing him, that historically turns into a heaping pile of "I told you so," or Sam with his tail between his legs telling Dean, "You were right." You know, the sort of twist that obliterates all that growth we've seen Sam experience. I don't want to see that anymore than I want to see Lucifer riding Sam out of Hell. I'm starting to wish they never went there. But they did and fingers crossed that the next writer, Andrew Dabb, makes it right.
BTW, it's really, really good to see you back eilf.
1) God to save Sam, although he didn't care when Sam was in the Cage before and hasn't cared about Adam, so unlikely.
2) Sam to save himself, which will help him heal because he will know he had the strength to save himself instead of being a pawn.
3) It's something else going on i.e. an hallucination, Gabriel, but not Sam actually trapped with Lucifer again unlikely
What I expect is for Dean to come to the rescue and then berate Sam for the rest of the season (and possibly for season hereafter) for not listening to him, while denying he has any connection to Amara. I'm hoping that pattern is done, but I'm not convinced and won't be until we see what happens.
Alice is correct that SPN is not good with these sorts of social issues. And the amount of reaction to Sam's situation - various levels from Sam/Lucifer to 'Sam was askin' for it' - that I have seen across fandom is more depressing than the outcome of the episode, which is really saying something.
emily swallow: ?@bigEswallz Dec 10 Vancouver, British Columbia: OK @jarpad & @MarkRPellegrin o -- who wins the coin toss for top bunk? #Supernatural @cw_spn #roomies
The CW_SPN is also treating it as a joke:
Supernatural ?@cw_spn Dec 10: See if Lucifer rekindles his old friendship on the Winter Finale of #Supernatural NOW: http://on.cwtv.com/SP09
One assumes that they are all just being grossly insensitive to (real world) implications rather than actually making fun of anything that is going to happen in the next episode. Which was Alice's original point.
- Lilah
I have no idea why you think Jensen and Misha taking photographs is in any way connected with the text of the show implying that a character is about to be sexually assaulted?
- Lilah
Edited, issue solved.
- Lilah
Although, I do tend to agree with eilf. Fans are more and more sensitive about social issues now. It's season 11, it's been going on for a few years now and TPTB still don't get it. It's a generational thing, something that's happening a lot more with a new younger audience watching that was raised to be PC about everything.
On a separate note I found rather cheesy Ruth Connell's tweet that basically stated Jensen was a professional and earned his paycheck because he managed not to stare at Swallow's boobs on set.
There were a lot of directly-connec ted-to-the-scen es people commenting on camera angles / eyelines / gentlemanly behaviour of Jensen (I watched, I think it was, one of the angels (might have been the priest) also keeping a VERY steady eyeline
That was some serious cleavage going on.
The only disagreement I have is that I'm not sure why Amara isn't considered evil. She is eating souls and killing people. Even if she is being honest, and the souls aren't dead, just in her, their bodies are still dead and so are they. Why isn't she evil for killing people? I guess we are supposed to think she doesn't know what she is doing, but there is no indication that she would stop if she did. Eve was considered evil and all she was doing was trying to protect her children. Azazel, Lilith and Ruby were "evil" and they were trying to get their people out of literal Hell. Amara wants to get her brother's attention so she is murdering people right and left. To me that's evil. I think they want us to think she's not evil, but I'm not buying it.
Amara's other goal seems to be to eliminate free will. No rules, eternal bliss sounds like a being in a drugged state. It's very similar to season four Angel and Jasmine who legitimately brought world peace with the price of eating a few people now and then. She was still considered evil and needing to be stopped. Basically this is not my first "Goddess who is doing good, but is really bad" rodeo.
Now, Amara is making him all zombie stoner and giving him bliss and he can't seem to make himself admit it to anyone.
If you are right and authors intended to screw their main character in such a way, I think the show will end for me at season 8 finale.
People seem to be puzzled by Dean's behaviour, but it was logical. He didn't answer Sam's call because he was under Amara's control, he was in a trancelike state, as for why he could try to stab her, it was just because she allowed him. She said exactly that, something like: "You had to try this and see that it's pointless". She just wanted to show him that it's pointless to fight her. As for her trying to suck up his soul, I think she just changed her mind at the last moment. I think if she couldn't do it for any reason, at least she would show some trace of surprise, but she wasn't surprised at the least.
Quote:I too will be vastly disappointed and discouraged. I am hoping we are all pleased with the development of the next ep.
Quote:I think it is plausible that she allowed Dean to stab her to make the point he cannot destroy her; but Dean chose to do it. I think he mustered up the courage or the Hail Mary attempt on his own accord because she said I get it you are a warrior, you had to try it. So, he did have some some control over his decisions and could have also answered the phone. I do not think she controlled Dean and made him stab her to prove her point. I think she only saw it coming. OR Do you think she controlled his actions and had him stab her to make her point? Then if that is the case Dean is a walking Zombie puppet around her with no free will.
As for her trying to suck up his soul, I think she just changed her mind at the last moment. I think if she couldn't do it for any reason, at least she would show some trace of surprise, but she wasn't surprised at the least. I think I saw a moment of confusion or some reaction on her face and I am still going with the fact she cannot take his soul. I just did not see anything in her actions or dialogue that would indicate why at that very moment she wanted to take his soul.
I think the whole interaction between Dean and Amara in this episode was too vague, ambiguous and subtle, to render it unclear. This is similar to the MOC saga. I do not mind mystery and intrigue and waiting for answers but I hope we get them. For me all the questions still remain open to debate: Did Amara change her mind about taking his soul or could she simply not complete the task. Why would she suck out his soul at that moment if she wants to become ONE with him? Why did she kiss him; does she have a sexual desire for him or just another means to apply her bliss, you cannot resist me. Is it only Dean or everyone who cannot resist her? Some people think she showed Dean the future or some image of Destruction, did that really happen? (I completely missed that). Finally, if she is so irresistible and Dean is a zombie then she is eradicating FREE WILL.
I just think she lifted her controll a bit for Dean to try to stab her and fail to make her point. And yes, free will is not her conception for humankind, that's for sure.
Adam is in the Cage, Death told Dean he would make an exception for one soul Sam or Adam. So Adam is in the Cage, his body was probably burned out by Michael, and if he was getting tortured, he's probably a demon by now.
But it does make sense that the human inside the meatsuit would die when his vessel was destroyed, as Cas explained about Jimmy. As to why Michael was able to quickly return as Adam and why Lucifer is able to appear as Nick, that seems like a contradiction of canon.
It probably means that the torture Lucifer will put him through is all psychological instead of physical, and maybe part of it will be all that weird Christmas stuff ... if it is meant to be taken seriously ...
Castiel: When the oil burns, no angel can touch or pass through the flames, or he dies.
Being an archangel doesn't matter, because they trapped Gabriel and Raphael in rings of holy fire, if it just meant their vessel would die they should have just been able to walk across the flames, take the Mulligan and find a new vessel.
People bring up the whole Abaddon/Rudy dead bodies thing, the reason they are able to take possession of dead bodies is because they are demons, and don't need to be granted consent. So Abaddon doing a spell to restore her holy fire charred corpse has no bearing on anything in regards to angels. The Cas/Jimmy thing is a huge canon fuck up, but can waved away with "it was God".
Adam being burned by the holy fire wouldn't kill him, because angels heal all wounds. It should have killed him and Michael according to canon, but it didn't. And if it destroyed the body, and Michael can just recreate an Adam corpse, it renders the majority of season 5's storyline pointless.
Quote:I think there is a way around that. Since Adam HAD previously consented to the possession and never revoked it, arguably that consent was good forever, allowing Michael to re-possess the corpse. Since neither Sam nor Dean had ever consented to possession, prior to Sam saying yes to Lucifer, the archangels couldn't have just had them killed and then possessed their meatsuits. The other alternative is that TPTB just didn't care enough about consistency with canon and opted for the most dramatic story line.:)
I'm starting to wonder what's with all these train whistles and crumbs being thrown about. Is God planning on making his grand entrance by rail? *Cue western music and grizzly old prospector guy* "Yup. *spits* From whut I heerd God is gunna be arrivin on the Noon Train." *Western music ends* Kidding of course. Maybe. ;)
Don't get me wrong. I liked it for the most part but as per usual with a Nep Duo script, the more you dissect the more holes and downright stupidity you will find. It's better to just leave your better sense at the door, drink copiously, watch and not ask any serious questions. For your own sanity.
Its interesting that they used the exact same idea about Rowena goading someone to leave safety and go to danger as they did with charlie last season though. That now looks like Rowena has a very strong agility to influence people. I bet none of the writers will follow through on it though
What SPN has forgotten most of all is that you can't make joke of serious canon and story-lines because when you do that you undermine your entire show. You can write funny stuff, you can break the 4th wall, you can do whatever you like with the normal run of the show. But not with the death of Sam's girlfriend(s), not with the death of Dean and Sam's mother, not by destroying the equal relationship between the brothers, not by making fun of Sam sacrificing himself to go to the cage in season 5 (technically they haven't done that last one YET) these are core story-points and screwing with them makes the whole structure fall apart. If you do it with the core of the story you will lose its heart. Sera Gamble knew that, as did Kripke. However as Jensen said at a con recently nowadays 'there is no joke too far on the show' (he may not have phrased it exactly like that and don't ask me which con there are too many but it was since the summer I think).
Back in the day they had Sam check that the wall of Bobby's house was solid to prove it wasn't a set. They rewrote Ruby so that there was no potential for consent issues from the person the demon was possessing. There are many other examples I am sure. That is good world-building. SPN is a real universe. It won't remain a real universe without attention from the writers. And the quality of the dialogue is honestly only one of the issues. A writer who can write good dialogue and uses it to screw with the heart of the show is worse than mediocre dialogue that at least tells the story.
(TL;DR: yeah there is one writer who bothers me a lot ... but I am outnumbered ;) )
I agree with this statement, which is why a certain writer who shall remain nameless (RT..RT..RT) will never be my favorite. I was disappointed in this episode, but it didn't make me angry the way some eps have when they have tampered with or even rewritten the characterizatio ns of the brothers. But my preference is a writer who stays true to the heart of the show while ALSO writing great dialogue. I guess I'm just greedy.:)
I will say that I like Nicole Snyder and Eric Charmello but I consider their episodes to not really be straightforward SPN episodes, they are almost like special-edition versions of the show (meta? maybe). They did write what vies for the worst episode of SPN - Mannequin 3 - and then showed they learned nothing when they rewrote it this season as 'Plush' - for which they should be punished in some way... But other than that... And they wrote a canon episode, with 'the Purge'. which I liked a lot and was the only rational and saving point of the middle of that season.
- Lilah
- Lilah
Yeah, for me it has cute scenes, I liked the girlfriend, I liked the scene where the boys had a one sided conversation where Dean said nothing and Sam worked out the entire story from sideways glances - THERE are the 2 brothers who are actually brothers!
I liked the solution - so much Sam confidence, and high speed car stuff (my Dad will only watch shows that have car-chases, I am immune to their charms mostly, but I get that they are appreciated :D), and Dean threatening to kill him when he realized how tenuous the solution really was), and some of the lines were funny:
DEAN: So I guess I saved you from a boring existence.
SAM:Yeah, occasionally I miss boring.
DEAN: So this killer truck.
SAM: I miss conversations that didn't start with 'this killer truck'.
ETA: so I am not a car expert (and I imagine this comment will get me in trouble with the impalaites) but it strikes me that, pretty as it is, the Impala is not actually the best car for a high speed chase, the rear of it appears to do its own thing especially when cornering. I think they did the best they could under the circumstances.
Quote:Well... not until she ups and toasts a bunch of people with lightning for no reason other than she didn't like their answers.
Quote:GO GET DEATH'S DAMN SCYTHE THAT HE HELD IN HIS HANDS JUST 10 EPISODES AGO AND FINISH HER ALREADY! There is NO explanation from the show why this would not work.
Quote:As my expectations keep collapsing, I'm getting more and more convinced it's going to be letting Mike & Lucifer out for a beatdown. Assuming they even remember Michael.
Don't laugh. This was the same show that gave us the line from Dean, "You're the king of the joint, don't you have a key?" WHEN AN ENTIRE YEAR OF YOUR LIFE WAS SPENT DEALING WITH THE 66 SEALS TO BREAK LUCIFER OUT OF JAIL, DEAN! IT'S WHEN YOU MET CASTIEL, HOW CAN YOU SERIOUSLY NOT REMEMBER THIS? (I'm getting really concerned that the blows to the heads are giving the brothers serious brain damage. Like... I'm not sure if I'm joking any more about that.)
Quote:Yeah... but he's SATAN. Do we really need to have the Lord of Evil be not too evil ("http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooEvil")? (if the answer is yes, then obviously we just shouldn't have Lucifer)
Quote:REAPERS DON'T POSSESS PEOPLE! Damn, amazing how much the problem would be solved if they had remembered @^&#$& canon!
YES I'M STILL MAD ABOUT SEASON 9!
But this is apparently Dean's thoughts: "Hmm... Death said he would reap God. We're dealing with God's sister. We just had Death's scythe... Man I just can't figure out any way to solve this season's problems, Sam."
I mean, the theology is bad enough this season, but I can kind of roll with it - I just wish they would explain how Death is supposed to fit in now with the God-Darkness siblings.
HOWEVER if the scythe is still around then maybe Dean is still off doing his own thing, he realizes that the scythe would work - since he knows a blade won't - and has worked out that it isn't still where they left it so likely a reaper must have it. So he goes and asks Billie for it (and she gives him a flea in the ear, no doubt, since she gave Sam one). This would mean that Sam gets his own autonomy and the opportunity to resist Lucifer under his own steam and maybe he DOES have a plan B ... oh yes, that would be much better.
Actually, one thing, I am ALL for Cas to take on Lucifer I think Misha would make an excellent Lucifer for a chunk of the season. I just don't want it to even remotely be connected to getting Sam back from Lucifer, it needs to be Cas's own decision.
Thank you all.
Yes Sam needs to rescue himself. Or at least be the main instigator. Though it WOULD be interesting if it turned out that Lucifer is now able to take Sam as a vessel without permission because of the screwing around that was done to Sam by him being fooled into being possessed (since it wasn't real permission) by Gadreel and the ensuing rewiring Dean had Crowley do to get him free.
Considering they literally had Crowley leading them, of course it was easy.
"GO GET DEATH'S DAMN SCYTHE THAT HE HELD IN HIS HANDS JUST 10 EPISODES AGO AND FINISH HER ALREADY! There is NO explanation from the show why this would not work."
Obviously missed that the scythe disintegrated along with Death after he was killed.
Death's death
Well there is still this one.
(Also there is the amulet to locate god possibly still in play. And the super-powered boy)
Ok Maybe it isn't hopeless