This episode, written by Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner, begins with a grown up Amara confronting a courtyard preacher. She turns water to blood. She brings lightning to strike the followers.
The episode then shows Sam having a vision of the cage and there is a burning bush, which Sam takes as confirmation it’s from God. He shares this with Dean, who argues that the visions could be a trick or not real. Sam convinces Dean that he needs to see this through.
They contact Crowley about getting in the cage. He resists at first but when they tell him that Amara is God’s sister he changes his mind, in part. There is a way to get to Lucifer but he needs the Book of the Damned and someone to read it.
We find Amara in a random church, looking for God, literally. The priest says he’s available in the book and hands her a Bible. She is not impressed, let’s say.
Crowley captures his mother. The Winchesters seek her help. She laughs it off at first but they convince her, especially when she thinks she can see her version of the Beatles, who happens to be the Dark Prince, Lucifer.
In a warehouse somewhere, the angels meet to figure out rebellion.
But back at the church, Amara is gorging on church souls before yelling for her brother to get his ass down on Earth.
Dean investigates the church murders as Sam monitors a chained Rowena. Dean starts to feel funny and we see that Amara is near. She takes him to a field so they are alone, it seems. Back in the dungeon, Rowena is frustrated at being locked up and bickers with Sam. Finally she says she can get them to the cage and tells him to get Crowley. They’ll need supplies.
Back with Amara and Dean, we see them talking and discussing their connection and why Amara was exiled. She could do creation better. Amara and God have a tendentious relationship it appears. Dean tries to reason with her but she resists. Amara says she doesn’t want to kill God’s creation but she needs to see him so she’s using this to get his attention.
Rowena, Crowley, and Sam go to Limbo, where Crowley is hiding another cage that houses Lucifer. Rowena does the spell and the cage lights up. Lucifer appears, kind of like in the Shining.
Lucifer and Sam chat and Sam reveals that God is contacting him and told him to come to Lucifer to help combat the darkness. Meanwhile, Dean and Amara are debating existence. She does a kind of John Lennon move and says imagine the world without god, prayer, etc. She kisses him and he sees destruction. Dean turns and we see that he is going to stab her with his knife. When he does, the blade shatters. She can’t be killed that way.
Back in the cage, Lucifer says he can help but only if Sam lets him out and also Sam lets him in. Sam hesitates but says no, there has to be another way.
Back in the field, Amara tells Dean they are destined to be one. She is interrupted by avenging angels but they can’t kill her. She kills them and the sky opens up. She says that perhaps God is finally coming to answer her call. Dean watches as she gets swept up into a bright light and sucked into the sky.
The episode concludes with Lucifer’s cage losing the ward. Crowley and Rowena rush to the cage but it is too late. Sam is in the cage with Lucifer, who reveals that when the Darkness was released the cage was cracked and those visions were really Lucifer in Sam’s head. They are bunk buddies again.
Thoughts, Questions, Speculations:
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
We have six weeks until a new episode. I hope everyone has a great holiday season! See you in January!
Put your thoughts, feelings, other comments below!
They contact Crowley about getting in the cage. He resists at first but when they tell him that Amara is God’s sister he changes his mind, in part. There is a way to get to Lucifer but he needs the Book of the Damned and someone to read it.
We find Amara in a random church, looking for God, literally. The priest says he’s available in the book and hands her a Bible. She is not impressed, let’s say.
Crowley captures his mother. The Winchesters seek her help. She laughs it off at first but they convince her, especially when she thinks she can see her version of the Beatles, who happens to be the Dark Prince, Lucifer.
In a warehouse somewhere, the angels meet to figure out rebellion.
But back at the church, Amara is gorging on church souls before yelling for her brother to get his ass down on Earth.
Dean investigates the church murders as Sam monitors a chained Rowena. Dean starts to feel funny and we see that Amara is near. She takes him to a field so they are alone, it seems. Back in the dungeon, Rowena is frustrated at being locked up and bickers with Sam. Finally she says she can get them to the cage and tells him to get Crowley. They’ll need supplies.
Back with Amara and Dean, we see them talking and discussing their connection and why Amara was exiled. She could do creation better. Amara and God have a tendentious relationship it appears. Dean tries to reason with her but she resists. Amara says she doesn’t want to kill God’s creation but she needs to see him so she’s using this to get his attention.
Rowena, Crowley, and Sam go to Limbo, where Crowley is hiding another cage that houses Lucifer. Rowena does the spell and the cage lights up. Lucifer appears, kind of like in the Shining.
Lucifer and Sam chat and Sam reveals that God is contacting him and told him to come to Lucifer to help combat the darkness. Meanwhile, Dean and Amara are debating existence. She does a kind of John Lennon move and says imagine the world without god, prayer, etc. She kisses him and he sees destruction. Dean turns and we see that he is going to stab her with his knife. When he does, the blade shatters. She can’t be killed that way.
Back in the cage, Lucifer says he can help but only if Sam lets him out and also Sam lets him in. Sam hesitates but says no, there has to be another way.
Back in the field, Amara tells Dean they are destined to be one. She is interrupted by avenging angels but they can’t kill her. She kills them and the sky opens up. She says that perhaps God is finally coming to answer her call. Dean watches as she gets swept up into a bright light and sucked into the sky.
The episode concludes with Lucifer’s cage losing the ward. Crowley and Rowena rush to the cage but it is too late. Sam is in the cage with Lucifer, who reveals that when the Darkness was released the cage was cracked and those visions were really Lucifer in Sam’s head. They are bunk buddies again.
Thoughts, Questions, Speculations:
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
We have six weeks until a new episode. I hope everyone has a great holiday season! See you in January!
Put your thoughts, feelings, other comments below!
Comments
I thought the warding on the cage was flawed on purpose by Rowena. So I was thinking that Rowena either wants Luci out for her own reason or simply wanted to get back at Sam by enabling luci to trap Sam in the cage. Not sure.....
I also wonder if Luci is lying and manipulating Sam once again...simply taking credit ...seizing the opportunity to get out....that's if God is truly behind Sam's visions and Lucifer just told Sam that it was him to shake him up and screw with his head....Amara told Dean they were bonded because she wears the original mark and Dean bore it....but so did luci....I was kind of wondering if luci were free and out of the cage, would Amara's hold on Dean break and she be drawn to Luci, the original bearer of the mark?....if so then I can see God enabling Lucifer's release.....tha t luci might actually play a part in helping the Winchesters even if luci isn't aware of it....Dean needs to be free of Amara if he and Sam are going to defeat her....so I can see why luci might be necessary on earth....at least temporarily.
I don't think amara can be killed...I still think she can only be trapped again...which is why the empty was mentioned by billie the reaper to sam.
I don't think sam will be a vessel. I do think he'll get out of the cage....the question is...will luci get his freedom along with Sam....I think it's possible..and I think that perhaps, God is aware of what the deal is and may want Lucifer out....especial ly if luci's presence can break the hold amara has on dean.....becaus e I think the Winchester's are God's aces in the hole....
I was under the impression that Rowena purposefully screwed up the warding on the cage....i'm not sure if she's trying to get back in her son's good graces....she wants luci out because she wants to hook up with him....or she has other plans entirely....all I know is I don't trust her....but I do enjoy the hell out of her.
the promo confused the hell out of me.....but I do think sam will be out of the cage in the next eppy.....but I think luci might be also.....:o
What I thought interesting was when Rowena was asking what was in the cage and Sam said Lucifer and then Dean said 'an archangel so powerful.that God personally dropped him into.the cage' - her reaction? She was holding back laughter. And then Dean's reaction to her reaction, as if he suspected that maybe she knows something they don't. And then my mind goes back to Rowenas little solstice orgy and I have to wonder - could Lucifer be Crowleys father? Weird I know but it might explain some of the weird things about him. Like red smoke.
The other thing I was wondering about is say Lucifer is telling the truth and he was communicating with Sam. Who says all those visions were from him though? Or the burning bush? Maybe the bysh was God's nod to Sam. Lucifer wouldn't necessarily know every vision Sam has had.
No whistles. I guess it means the train has reached its destination.
When Amara went to suck Deans soul was she unable to or did she decide against it and went for the kiss instead? And by "becoming one" or whatever she said, does she mean in the sexy way or the Dark/Good Charlie way? I still think that's going to come into play eventually. I thought she kissed him out of curiosity. She did say he fascinates her.
Where did Rowena take Crowley? Did she know what was happening and to save them she transported them to an alternate universe (hiding Sam as a Funko? Or was that Dean?)
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do. Lucifer lies, a LOT, so I'm not sure.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything? I don't think Amara can be killed. Trapped again, perhaps, but not killed.
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean? I'm interested in it. It's a change to see Dean truly attracted to the "bad guy". I hope it doesn't turn sexual because I don't need that. I think she tried to suck his soul, but couldn't, but I don't know exactly what that means.
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice? The boys don't do well when they aren't together, so yes, kind of. I would also say that having Dean go to a possible Amara sighting was a bad choice as well. Dean knows about the bond between him and Amara. He should have stayed with Rowena and let Sam handle the Amara murders. OTOH, I don't see any way Dean could have stopped what happened. He wouldn't know if the wards would hold any more than Sam and Crowley did.
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she? Rowena wants power. I don't think she was helping Sam and Crowley. I think she sabotaged the spell to help Lucifer or to get Lucifer to help her.
1. I think it was the Angels - and ?I think she is going to massacre them.
2. I believe he wants out of the cage and to make Sam his puppet. Speaking of the cage, though - QUESTION - I thought Michael was in there with Lucifer? That cage looked like it just had one occupant. Anyone know?
3. I agree with Percysowner. Amara can be locked up - not killed.
4. I was fascinated by the scene with Dean and Amara. It was like he was in a trance and could not answer that phone. The kiss surprised me. She really is seducing him. The bliss thing is interesting too. Remember she did that to the babysitter in Thin Lizzie before getting ticked off with her and taking her soul.
5. Yes, he should have waited for his brother. Dean will now go to Billie to get him to hell to help his brother and they will be working together again. I am intrigued that both brothers are vulnerable. Right now Sam is in most danger, but I think Dwan's danger will be bigger in second half of season. I love that they are both looking out for each other and even if they get out of sinc for an episode, they are getting right back on track within an episode or 2 this season.
6. Rowena wants to be the queen of the witches - any way she can get there.
Have ?I mentioned I'm loving this season?
AND - whoever manages the board (Bardivoice?). I am learning - responding to one person - I hit a button and somehow "reported" Aly's post rather than responding to it and could not figure out how to turn it off. Apologies to you and Aly. I need remedial lessons!
- Lilah
Also each time a siren, train whistle or thunder and lighting is heard it shows in the Supernatural Transcripts by Forever Dreaming. Looks like the siren was heard three times. Twice in the same scene and then again in a later one . The first time was the scene where Sam, Dean and Crowley are discussing Sam talking to Lucifer, the second time is when the angels are having their group think tank.
I'll give a listen tomorrow on my rewatch. ;) We are such sound queens, aren't we!
Originally I thought the angels, but I'm now moving toward God. The moving, thunderous clouds were similar to those that struck down the believers at the start of the episode. And Amara did seem surprised to see them. If it is the angels then she'll start laying waste to heaven, so I think God got her out of there. Maybe he wants to protect his sister as well.
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
No, I don't. If anything, I believe the visions came from God more than ever. God doesn't make anything easy, but he does help those who help themselves which is what Sam did. Sam knew this was coming, he knew there would be pain involved, because nothing big ever comes easy. Either Sam will come out of the new Cage with some information about how to stop the Darkness, or after his time in the new Cage, when Sam will come out retaining his faith in God despite all he has been through, he'll get his answer then.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
I don't think she can be killed, nor should she. She can be put away though. Perhaps Lucifer is the key to that.
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean? Uncomfortable, and not particularly excited. They're 'drawn' to each other? After 3 seasons of Dean being led around by the nose by something I'm not particularly looking forward to another one.
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
No. Sorry, but Sam can't always wait around for Dean to finish banging whoever he is banging in order to act. This isn't Sam waiting in the car for Dean to finish with the twins ala season 3. Add to that, what could Dean have done? Absolutely nothing. If Dean had answered the phone and he did come back, the same decision would have been made and Sam would be in the exact same position.
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
She wants to make mischief. Sure she helped, but helped who? Crowley did seem mightily concerned about Sam all the way through this, so perhaps Rowenas actions will spur him to help Sam.
While the writing was clunky in places (the angel call to action scene was particularly poor), certain scenes made up for it. I enjoyed Rowena and Crowley in it, and the scenes between Sam and Lucifer were amazing.
Yes. Is she going to possess Dean as in a vessel (too predictable) or more of a merging of them both ala Dark/Good Charlie? I kinda saw that kiss as her curiosity more than predatorially sexual. Dean responded but not in his usual "really into it" way. Poor guy looks so confused when he's around Amara, like he's trying to wrap his head around it and figure her out but is grasping at/coming up with nothing but straws.
Lucifer/Sam is pretty played out. SO IS,Sam beING so easily manipulated because he needs to feel special. Guess,what.... Lucifer does think you're special!!! Sam always says,yes eventually.
Rowena is not the partner you are looking for Sam.
I agree that the kiss was not initiated by Dean but it certainly became reciprocated. Looked like the same french reaction he had with Pamela in heaven. I think this whole Amara - Dean connection just got more ambiguous. Dean seems to become immobilized or slightly hypnotized by Amara. This is dangerous because if she chose to or could, his soul would be gone. He just stood there when she took his face in her hands and he knows she sucks out souls. This is why I find the fact he he tries to kill her not credible in the sense of bad writing. How does he suddenly find his own mind/ wits and attempt to kill her?
Lucifer/Sam is pretty played out. SO IS,Sam beING so easily manipulated because he sidestepping special. Sam always says,yes eventually.
Rowena is not the partner you are looking for Sam.
Fuck Rowena. Kill her. Move on. Don't care to learn the actresses name. She doesn't deserve the effort. It's the most over-acted steaming pile of horse shit I've ever seen. Worst acting in the entirety of the shows existence. It's horrendous.
I haven't commented much on this show in recent weeks - because I've been happy. The more I like, the less I feel a need to comment. I've loved it.
Rowena changes that.
Oh, and then the moment happened. That moment. Sam comes face to face with Lucifer in the cage. The epic moment of all epic moments. The encounter we've all anticipated for 5 years ... and how does it play out?
"Sam Winchester. My old roomy. Hug it out?"
What was that shit?
Edit: Reformatted to clarify who should be killed (a character), who shouldn't be killed (real person acting as character), and removed a few (but not all) F-bombs.
I liked the ep for the most part except for the lame Angel meeting and the even lamer Angel attack on Amara. Though I did like the different ways she killed them. ;)
On the preview for next episode can anyone figure out what is carved in Cas's chest? I AM ?
I'm thinking that original vision of John was God sent. Possibly the burning bysh? The rest were from Satan. John said God helps those who help themselves which is basically the same thing Dean keeps saying to him. Oh Sam. OPT.
Explain to me later how Sam insisting that they do tbis , guilt tripping Dean to let him do it, racing to do it when he was supposed to do research in preparation for possibly doing it, and being fooled by Lucifer because of his own hubris and needs makes Sam in the Cage Dean's fault.
Sorry Russ I misunderstood you.
I thought the story flowed well, maybe the angel gathering could have been better, but they needed it as a way out for Dean that was obvious. I don't think they knew how else to end the Dean & Amara scene, the angels obviously don't know she's gods sister. They wouldn't have gone head on with her otherwise.
I don't know why Dean had to investigate the church masacre he surely knew it was Amara. He was with Sam trying to reach Lucifer, Dean left Sam vunerable to the 3 most powerful people. He asked Sam to ring when they were going to do the spell - he knew the call was from Sam he chose to ignore it over Amara. Amara's bond on Dean is strong but when Dean looked away he was able to break it breifly and attempt a stabbing. Dean is not in anyway interested in her Amara seems to be childlike in her actions, she is a adult but acts like a child. She's angry but more so in a stamp your foot have a tantrum huffy way. I won't it why can't I have it God made it I could have done better she is very jealous doesn't understand that part of the journey in life is to trust, believe, kindness, family, love, friends, pain, hate, death This is what gods world is and the reward is a place in heaven, to Amara this is manipulation. The smiting from the angels wouldn't have hurt her in anyway if it could they would have done it eons ago. Dean is more concerned about the humans who will get caught in the backlash Like in the apocolypse.
I to believe she was going to take Dean's soul this is her way of becomming one but I think in a strange way she might love ?? Dean he does appear to be able to make her stop and think. Dean doesn't care for her its this horrid bond she has over him Dean & Sam may have got rid of the MOC but not all the residule emotions.
I still believe its god talking to Sam this is gods way of asking Sam to believe in himself Lucy is the master of manipulation and he is going to try and rattle Sam Sam needs to hold on to his believe and strength and god will reward him. Yes Rowenna knew that spell would only last so long, and since Lucifer was in another cage and the warding was down he was able to use his powers,
A couple other things... I would have liked to have seen a quick montage that showed Amara growing from her teen state into her current adult state at the beginning of the ep. That would have generated a good deal of tension and rounded out the way they've been showing her evolve since episode 1... she's at full strength now. Also, Lucifer is SAYING that it was him all along, tempting Sam back to the pit? But is that true? Lucifer is the original opportunist. I'll bet it really is God, but Lucifer saw an opportunity to get what he wants and he's using it. I feel that this is true the same way that I feel that Death is not dead. I guess we'll know pretty soon. If Sam's visions stop now, we'll know that they are from Luci, if they continue they may be from God. And what was up with that promo!! Is that an episode? My jaw was on the floor! Mark Shepard in PJ's with feet saying about his Funko Pop doll "Mum, I got a Sam!" WTF??????:p
Overall verdict, B. It was a good episode in a lot of ways and a miracle for this writing team in particular. It suffered from all the same problems that always plague this writing team; poor dialog, not great pacing, trying to cover too much ground in one episode, a cartoon feel and a lack of seriousness or gravitas. Still though, not bad for these guys and no real canon destruction so I'll count it as a win.
What threw me was the comedic aspect - thinking that that was where they were going - it was like whiplash. Deadly serious to Ben Edlundesque? So yeah. If it was a bit of holiday fun, I'm good with leaving it at that.
Why are you so sure? Is it jut a gag? Have they included scenes in an official promo before that were not really in the next episode?
If you notice, the *only* people in the holiday scenario are the ones that were down in hell at the end of the episode (Lucifer, Crowley, Rowena, and Sam [as a doll]). When we see Cas and Dean, they aren't part of that Christmas themed sequence. So, I feel like the promo is showing us something that Lucifer, or whomever, creates while in hell down there. And then the episode is going to be about Dean (and probably Cas) finding a way to get all of them out of hell or that state that they are in. That's my guess.
At the very least, my first guess isn't that it's just a gag. It just seems like Lucifer gets the upper hand for a while and alters their reality or puts them through some kind of dream sequence state, in which (of course) he's in charge as Santa.
But, what I'm most interested in, aside from the holiday stuff, is what in the hell is carved onto Castiel's chest!!!???!!!! I can't make it out for the life of me.
BUT.... WARNING POSSIBLE SPOILER in my happy fantasy world, it is the fine work of Gabriel who is the only one to create alternative universes. He steps in and removes Sam from the crapfest and is working on behalf of God . Yes, I know but the promo did say it was a Christmas gift!!!!!!!!
I just can't help but notice how the only players in the Christmas scenes were the exact people that were in hell, and only those people. I can't think that's a coincidence.
OMG, so excited at the possibilities now! LOLOLOL I'm such a dork.
The only thing I can't figure is Rowena. At the end of the episode, she looks like she has some kind of upper hand. She's walking Crowley down some stairs and her demeanor is like someone who was just waiting for things to play out. She seems aware of something we are not. But, in the promo, she looks bothered and annoyed by what she's going through. She's wearing that red nose and just definitely doesn't look like she is in any kind of control anymore. So, maybe she tries to control Lucifer but Lucifer creates the alt reality and overthrows her....? I don't know.
SPNLIT just suggested that it could also be *possibly* Gabriel creating the alt reality, which is totally his M.O. I would so so so love that!
Quote: I agree. Lucifer only capitalized on the idea and said it was him after Sam gave him the info. It may also just be wishful thinking. I enjoyed Sam's journey in faith and thought it was great character development. I will be disappointed if it turns out to just be a redundant slap in the face to Sam, his faith gets tossed and Lucifer will once again be able to screw with Sam's head.
So did Rowena intentionally screw up the warding, is Lucifer that powerful, or was this all a trick/illusion by Rowena? Lucifer is still stuck in the cage, though, isn't he?
Crack in the cage - that does address the fact that Lucifer would have been messing with Sam all along since he and his soul got out of the cage. But... were all those visions from Lucifer? In S6, when Dean brought up the possibility that Lucifer was using Sam as a meatsuit, Castiel said no, the angels would have felt if Lucifer escaped the cage. Wouldn't the angels have felt it now if Lucifer was able to reach out beyond the cage? And where the hell was Castiel? Since he's had some success with getting things out of the cage, you'd think maybe the brothers would have asked him? And likewise about Sam's visions?
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?
Angels - they had threatened to do so.
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
Nope; not entirely convinced all those visions were from Lucifer and that Lucifer isn't just messing with his favorite chew toy, Sam Winchester.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
Nothing; can only contain/lock her up.
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
Weird; Amara is sucking up the souls which as we know is a great source of power. She appeared as though she was going to consume Dean's soul before changing her mind and kissing him. Why did she change her mind? Is it something about Dean's soul, maybe the fact that he was destined to be Michael's vessel? I ended up with more questions than answers. And physically she may have aged but she continues to act like a petulant little brat having a temper tantrum.
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
Wait... didn't Sam call Dean and Dean blew him off? Contrived nonsense. Hindsight is always 20/20 so yes, it was a shit move to go to the cage.
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
She wanted the codex back but there's something more going on.
Some viewers think that Amara COULDN'T suck Dean's soul, but I interpreted it the way you did, that she just changed her mind. I would have preferred almost anything to that kiss.
Quote:E, I was going to say all of this in my comment but you said it perfectly so I'll save myself some typing. These writers are seemingly incapable of writing any subtle, restrained dialogue.
Aside from that there were a few other things that really bothered me. I enjoyed Amara's quest for God. Like everyone else she is frustrated that he is in the wind, so I enjoyed that part of her plot. I even liked the odd connection between her and Dean, and I liked her whisking him away to that field. But there it got annoying. I don't understand why she would need to "bond" with a mere mortal, regardless of whether he ever bore the MOC. They better have a good explanation for why a god-like being would ever even want to be so connected with a human. But I was willing to wait and see where that goes until the kiss. I've been fearing this since before the season even started- some kind of love connection. It's just a pile of crap. It reduces this primal force to just another chick who can't resist Dean's charms, and saps her of the mystique she had. I was pretty pissed about it.
Another thing about that scene that bothered me was the sudden appearance of the hapless angels. I think the writers forgot that the angels cannot fly anymore, so they should never have been able to appear there so quickly. So much for the great continuity this season.
The best part of the ep for me was the cage scene, but that could have been so much better in the hands of better writers. It should have been just Sam and Lucifer alone. Every time they cut away from them to Crowley and Rowena it sapped the scene of all of its energy and tension. Especially when they have Rowena drooling over Lucy- again, what a way to strip away all of the aura of power and menace that Lucy has in spades by having Rowena lust after him. But when it was just Sam and Lucy it was awesome, although again I think that Lucy's dialogue could have been so much better. It's a testament to Mark P that the scene was still awesome. The first appearance of his glowing eyes was amazing, and I like the way he prowled around the cage like an lion. And Jared was brilliant. Sam is such a person of faith, which has led him to this point in time. He has never lost faith in Dean or Cas no matter how many times they gave him cause, and we see that he has never lost his faith in God. I don't know if Lucy is lying about giving Sam the visions, but either way Sam's reaction to the enormity of that revelation was heartbreaking. Just that one tear. and the look on his face. I thought those last couple of minutes in the cage redeemed the whole ep for me.
One final bone to pick- the score. I thought it was cheesy and intrusive, especially the weird choral music that accompanied Lucy's arrival. Like Rowena's campy dialogue, it lent a ludicrous air to a scene that that should have been one of constant tension and raw fear. I think it was the worst use of music I've ever seen on the show, like something out of a bad fantasy flick. It totally pulled me out of the emotion of the scene, although I'm sure the intention was the opposite. I hope I enjoy this ep more on a rewatch, and the problem was my high expectations more than anything else, because this ep should have been simply outstanding.
I'm getting kind of tired of Dean/Amara going nowhere. Amara feeling sorry for herself and Dean just staring at her. And Dean Winchester one of the most cunning and smartest hunters on the planet tries to kill Amara with a knife? Not an angel sword or the demon killing knife just a big ass knife? Not a very smooth move.
I need to watch the episode again but on first watch it wasn't the worst ep written by those two but it should have been so much better.
Man I just hope that in the next episode it's not gonna be so that all angels are dead and killed by Amara.
While I was very disappointed in this ep, I don't think that is what's in store for us in Jan. If it is, I will be extremely ticked off. I'm thinking (and hoping) that all this groundwork they've been laying for Sam, of overcoming his fear and doing whatever he can to save ALL of the people, will enable him to somehow overcome the trauma of this latest trip to the cage, and maybe even somehow outsmart Lucifer. Anything else would be repetitive and a huge disappointment.
I hated both lines by the way.
Yes, I do believe he does lie and yes, we have all seen plenty of plot holes and discontinuity in the past that I could be wrong here, but.... Lucifer very clearly told Sam when they first met "I will never lie to you." And, I gotta say.... I believe him. If...and I stress IF the writers are going to keep any continuity, then Lucifer is not and should not be lying to Sam. Now, maybe he *lied* when he said "I will never lie to you", lol.... and then it just gets confusing. hahahha. But, for me, personally, I have bought into the "Lucifer is a misunderstood villain" set up. I remember clearly, by the end of season 5, I hated Michael. LOL. I did. All the tricking and conniving that the angels did to get Dean to say yes to Michael. I didn't like Lucifer either, but at least with him, I knew who/what I was dealing with. Michael wasn't so much evil, but I almost felt like he and the other angels had less morals than Lucifer did/does!
I'm trying to remember if there ever was a time that we knew *for sure* that Lucifer flat out lied to Sam about something, and not as a joke or as sarcasm, but as a true lie... my head is swimming from last night's episode, so nothing comes to mind. Please, though, correct me if I'm wrong.
In my honest opinion, the angle they are playing at is that Power corrupts. Not a new concept, but a solid one. Lucifer is powerful, being the second born. And the power has indeed corrupted him. By his own admission, he's said "I loved my father too much". But!, Michael is more powerful. And I think Michael is more corrupted. We don't know where Adam/Michael is. He should have been in that cage with Lucifer, as far as I knew. Maybe he's in his own cage, or maybe there'll be backstory about how he was able to get out of hell and has been back in heaven the whole time. I don't know. All I do know is that I'm personally more inclined to *trust* Lucifer (not saying I like him or will fight for him, just that I will take him at his word) more than I would trust Michael or any other Archangel besides Gabriel. So, if he told Sam the visions came from him, then....right now anyway....I believe him.
*sorry, had to edit this to add more content*
The angels. In fact, I think it's possible Michael was a part of that. He's not in the cage...so... It could be wishful thinking, but if we are bringing Lucifer back into the fold, then I would want Michael to play at least some role too.
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
YES! Yes, I do believe him. I've always believed him. Lucifer is an enemy to humans, but not to Sam and not to himself. He's always believed that everything he's done has been the right thing. That's part of his problem. He takes responsibility for his actions, but has no interest in redemption because he's convinced he's doing the right thing.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
If Amara is as old as they say, I do not believe she can be killed. Perhaps if there's another "big bang" in the universe and everything gets a do-over. LOL. Otherwise, I think she can be contained, but not destroyed.
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
I'm intrigued. Right now, I'm looking at it as a Bram Stoker's Dracula story. He was a vampire that sucked blood. Essentially, Amara is the same, sucking souls. But Dracula fell in love with a woman whom he forced himself to not feed on, but eventually did. I see a slight parallel with Amara. I can't say that she's "fallen in love" with Dean... eh, no. But she's drawn to him, connected to him, and therefor she wants to feed on him and take his soul, but at the same time doesn't, or won't. I just find it interesting at this point, but I'm also waiting for the moment when she just goes away.
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
Yes and No. They are always better together. But, Sam is smart. He makes the hard choices. And both of them going to hell would be like "putting all your eggs in one basket". Imagine if Dean was there with him in that cage with Lucifer. I'm sure Lucifer would not hesitate to kill Dean. So, right now, I think I don't have enough information about the outcome to know if it truly was a good decision or not.
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
She definitely has her own agenda. I think she wants to tap into Lucifer's power. I think she wants to go all the way and try to take over if she can. I don't care too much for the character, so beyond that, I can't say.
The only questions I have right now are about Cas. :( Makes no sense that he wasn't there. The writers better show that he was trapped by someone somehow or working things in the background to excuse him for not being there. Also, does anyone know what was carved into his chest in the promo??!!!???? I can't make it out!
2. Where is God?
I mean you would have thought he'd show up by now for SOMETHING.
Is he in trouble?
Are the Winchesters about to go intergalactic?
Is this about to twist into a search and rescue for god?
Are there so many parrell universes that he may not even know what's going on?
eh. You'd think that with his sister, that one would get his attention. But no.
So.. IS he okay?
I don't know how it could be angels but if they have some kind of doom machine that did that then it was angels. Otherwise I need to say God. That effect was pretty awesome btw.
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do. I do and I don't. I have pretty mixed feelings about him.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything? I think she can't be killed. She can be contained though.
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean? I need to know more about it because it doesn't sound good what ever it is. They have the connection but what troubles me that she said they need to come one. Does she mean she needs to suck out his soul? Or is Darkness only complete if they are one. That would be a twist. ALSO, Amara answering to Dean when he asks how she looks "I look like this for now" Gave me goosebumps.
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice? No, it actually sounded pretty safe for what they tried. Crowley snapping them to hell. Rowena delivering only Lucifer to the "mirror" cage with warding (It is clear where Lucifer appears is a different cage) so Michael/Adam would not be there and they would not need to open the real cage. Of course, I think Rowena did something that the warding didn't hold. And well, Dean was already influenced by Amara and her presence to not answer Sam's call.
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she? Power, and she is helping but for her own gain. I think we will learn more about that later.
I loved the music and the special effects were phenomenal in this episode. I don't actually remember them using this much effects in one episode ever. A lot was jumped over to thug everything in to a one episode. I think it was said that Crowley had been keeping taps on mother dearest so she was easy to find. And I was wondering how the angels were that fast where Amara and Dean was and then I remembered they had that tracking thing also to Metatron and Amara wasn't quiet in her actions. I mean she blasted believers and made a massacre in a church. Angels knew where she was. I am certain. Only complaint that I really have is. WHERE the HELL was Cas? I mean, from an episode that he actually made sense to be and I don't know HELP OUT? He was MIA. But I guess he must be on the next as they have said the episode has two parts really.
There was a lot happening so I need to check the episode again now that I have fully woken up to concentrate on everything. And for people that are wondering the promo. I think Lucifer is having some fun with all three of them because they thought they could outsmart him. In January we will see and I can't wait!
- Lilah
- Lilah
Edit: just read Lilah'a theory on that in the post directly above this. Makes sense.
Interesting that IMDB so far has a 9.5 rating for last nights episode.
I don't think it was God because we are not ready for a brother/ sister God battle. It seems like it was angels but if it is, the angels in heaven did not send the memo to the angels on the ground who apparently thought they were going to bring her in.
2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
No. Maybe just wishful thinking because I will be vastly disappointed if all this build up of having faith and conquering fear was just a big let down of another round of Lucifer screwing with Sam. It would be redundant and I think this season was on a better track. Lucifer did not come right out and tell Sam he was communicating with him and led him to the cage. Lucifer is just manipulating, capitalizing on the info Sam somewhat stupidly revealed to him.
3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
Nothing. She will have to be contained with a better lock and key; not to be given to Dean :)
4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
I thought it was intriguing until this episode. Now it is murky and on the verge of becoming contrite. The reason for Dean's trance like state needs to be revealed a bit more. He seems to be immobilized but why? I thought he felt protective but without no apparent changes or motivation he stabbed her. He does not seem particularly blissful. And then we had the kiss from Amara which was clearly reciprocated. Is the almighty female God of the universe feeling passion for a mere mortal (even if it is Dean Winchester) or is she reduced to using sex to manipulate him? Query: Did Amara change her mind about consuming Dean's soul if yes Why? OR Did Amara realize she was not able to consume his soul and went with plan B?
5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
I think it should not have been written as a choice. For this season, it was out of character for Sam and Dean not to be together for this main event. The reason for the separation was contrived and poorly written. Dean did not take Sam's call during the mission of a lifetime? Why because he was immobilized by Amara's presence but later was able to stab her? With that said, yes, I think it was a bad decision.
6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
Rowena wants to be the queen of the witches. She also wants to go on a double date: Lucifer and Rowena and Goddess Amara and Dean. She only agreed to "help" when she learned from Dean that Lucifer was in the mix. She just capitalized on the opportunity to ingratiate herself to Lucifer, by screwing with the spell so to seek revenge on Sam and give Lucifer some leverage to get out of the cage.
I don't think Luci sent the visions. That whole crack in hell thing ....not buying it,,,,and here's why...If luci could do it...then so can Michael....and if anyone would want to communicate with the outside regarding the D, it would be Michael, Michael is connected to Dean....and Michael is the ever loyal son to God. If anyone has a reason or willingness to help put the D back, it's Michael. Michael would also be able to recognize what Luci is up to and warn Dean...so I'm not buying into the whole Luci could send visions due to a crack in the wall. I do think more and more he's pulling a crowley. Crowley, using Sam to his advantage back in s6, lied and took credit for Sam's rescue from hell and used his so called hold on Sam's soul to get the boys to do what he wanted. I think Luci, who is quite smart, saw an opportunity and seized it. Luci knows God isn't making any kind of appearance, so he's taking credit for Sam's visions knowing that God isn't around to prove Luci wrong. Lucifer recognized the faulty warding....and so he knew he couldn't get out...but he knew he can trap Sam in with him. I don't believe for a minute luci actually believes Sam would consent to him being a vessel....he's messing with him....but luci does know that Sam locked in the cage with him guarantees his own release....Dean will buckle.....when he sees his brother trapped and tormented once again by luci....he will do anything to get sam out, including releasing luci.
I still don't get the whole dean amara thing. it seems by what she said that she's bonded to him because she is bearing the original mark that he wore? ok so there's a connection.,,,b ut i agree with those above questioning her need to become one with dean? is the mark part of what makes her all powerful? does amara collecting the soul of the one who bears the mark what completes her? Is someone protecting dean which is why she couldn't suck his soul? I'm very confused....I still feel like God is responsible in some way for Sam's visions...I also feel that due to pride, God would never just let Luci out and ask for his help.,...but I can see God enabling Luci to get out.....I can see Luci and his connection to the mark draw Amara in...thus breaking her hold over Dean. Once Dean's hold is broken, he won't be prisoner of her unknown demands...and he and sam can find a way to defeat her.
I don't think Sam will be in the cage for long....i think just for this one ep,,,,though it'll feel like a month:D.......I do think Dean will get Sam out....and I do think Luci will get out too.,..but i'm leaning towards that being what God's wants.
The reason I don't think Cas was involved in this eppy is because he most likely would've gone with sam and dean to crowley....and cas definitely would've recognized the faulty warding on the cage....Cas will most likely be involved with helping Dean get Sam out though.
;)
When the sigils and warnings started fading and the fire going out was that because of Rowenas underhandedness or did Lucifer pull it off on his own? He didn't seem terribly surprised it was happening. I have to rewatch again to get a better idea of that scene.
Lucifer called Crowley old friend? Crowley was not around when Lucifer was locked up and went in to hiding in Season 5 because Lucifer wanted him dead. So how would they know each other? Because Crowley was Lilith's right hand demon?
The body count is getting up there so I don't think Amara can be considered a misunderstood deity at this point; definitely a bad guy; a spoiled petulant brat of a bad guy but bad nonetheless.
When Amara and Dean met in the field and the 3 angels confronted Amara; that looked like the same location they used for the church in Sacrifice. Can anyone confirm?
After Sam found out from Crowley about Dean and Amara's extra special bond, there's no way he would have let Dean run off to investigate on his own. Likewise, Dean would not have ignored Sam's phone call given what they were attempting, unless Amara's hold over Dean is a lot stronger than he'll admit. Dean isn't so stupid as to try to stab Amara with a plain old knife; maybe an angel blade or the First Blade but not a plain old knife; didn't make any sense, unless he knew it wouldn't work.
Rowena wasn't quite as annoying on the rewatch but a lot of the writers on the show just can't seem to write for her.
Wasn't sure if Amara couldn't consume Dean's soul, or changed her mind. She did say they will become one.
When Dean yelled out for Amara to stop before she killed the angel, did she hesitate at all? I think it's interesting - that Dean tried to stop her not because he gave a flying leap about the angels but rather her well being. He knew if she attacked that as the one angel said, all of them would combine their strength into one strike even she would never survive. Foolish angels.
Quote: Agreed. Did not enjoy the current portrayal of adult Amara for the reason you stated.
Quote: The problem is that he was able to break the hold to stab her. So, the hold issue is not a good enough reason for Dean not to answer Sam's call.
In this episode Rowena's presence and dialogue diminished the cage scene.
Quote: I watched this scene several times and still cannot come to a decision. The look on her face makes me think she could not do it and then got more intrigued and kissed him. She did say they would become one but then he stabbed her. She is behaving like a brat so who knows.
One thing about show for the last 9 episodes is how it's been moving along storywise and I fear we've gotten used to it. For the most part of this episode, which I did enjoy very much by the way, it did move along...of course accept for Amara/Dean which is pretty much repetitious at this point. This of course leads me to be anxious about their scenes, wishing they would end so we can go back to the meat and potatoes of the episode, which is sam/Lucifer. Every other episode until this point I didn't feel the need for scenes to speed up and be over with because nothing is going on and it's boring. I hate the fact that I'm feeling this way about scenes that involve Jensen. :(
But what irked me the most about this episode, was the blatant absence of story flow. I usually don't even notice stuff like this...but this was so obvious that even I recognized it. Can someone please tell me how it's possible that in one minute we have sam, dean, Crowley and Rowena discussing the most dangerous missions they've ever been on......go to commercial....a nd then all of a sudden dean is at the church. The boys were with Crowley. They weren't in their motel room with a computer looking stuff up. Please tell me how the boys knew about the church....at what point did this information reach them during that meeting? does Crowley have alarms that go off that signal trouble? Does Dean have an alert on his phone that goes off every time there's a police situation? Did some demon come running in an interrupt their meeting...."bos s boss guess what just happened up above"?:o I mean seriously, how did we get during a commercial Dean in a meeting involving his brother going to hell....to him in suit at that church? This bothered me more than anything else....the implausibility of this scene....I get where the separation was necessary....bu t at no point did we get B. We just got A....then C....and no B......
whew...just had to get that out there....other than that, again for me enjoyable....wa s even able to find a way to get past the boring parts....but this time I just couldn't get past the blatant disregard of the story flow....
I think I have to agree that this duo should be demoted from writing such climactic eps ...they should just be allowed to write regular during the year and leave the big eps to writers more capable of giving us plausible episodes that don't feel like we're missing a very significant scene that leaves us all like....huh
I'm sure episode 10 will be handled much better.....so looking forward to it.
I for the most part enjoyed the episode. I loved the visual affects of hell and the cage spectacular. The church scenes where amazing, the sky effects the fountain everything fantastic, Jared & Jensen on their game again and their acting was excellent. I am getting bored with this Dean/Amara thing move it along or end it for goodness sake Your wasting a excellent actors (Jensen) time having him mooning around over a spoilt brat who is pissed off with her brother that stood on her big toe eons ago. Last season you made Sam stand in the corner, is it Dean's turn this season ????
Sugerhi says ==
Can someone please tell me how it's possible that in one minute we have sam, dean, Crowley and Rowena discussing the most dangerous missions they've ever been on......go to commercial....a nd then all of a sudden dean is at the church. The boys were with Crowley. They weren't in their motel room with a computer looking stuff up. Please tell me how the boys knew about the church....at what point did this information reach them during that meeting? does Crowley have alarms that go off that signal trouble? Does Dean have an alert on his phone that goes off every time there's a police situation? Did some demon come running in an interrupt their meeting...."bos s boss guess what just happened up above"?:o I mean seriously, how did we get during a commercial Dean in a meeting involving his brother going to hell....to him in suit at that church? This bothered me more than anything else....the implausibility of this scene....I get where the separation was necessary....bu t at no point did we get B. We just got A....then C....and no B......
You got a commercal I watch no commercial just a brief black screen and thought hang on did I cut a scene out ???!! The boys as you said should have been so focused on Rowenna and getting to the cage that the outside world didn't really exsist, why / how did he get to the church. A brief ph call on Dean's mobile with a quick explanation to Sam would have taken up 30 sec of film time and would have been better than what we got. A big fat nothing !!!
1) I thought we were going to get more understanding out of this Amara/Dean connection. All I got was blah blah blah and more confused
2) Dean is shown to be quiet weak ?? when it comes to Amara - Sam ring me before you do anything - Sam rings - Dean ohh hang it I prefer to be with Amara ???? Sorry not Dean, If they needed to have Dean away from Sam in the cage scene, they should have had Dean take Sam's call and Dean saying on my way then Amara could have bailed him up whisked Dean off to neverland for her useless conversation with him which filled in or wasted 10 min of good screen time , at least we could except that and know that Dean tried.
3) Sam to Rowenna -- Lucifer is in the cage, Rowenna laughing lets get to it then boys -- Dean thinking her response to that strange but not saying anything That was off
4) I could never understand why anyone would let a witch do a spell particularly one this dangerous on trust alone. They can't read the book they don't know what she is saying or writing she is EVIL for goodness sake TRUST no thank you she could have been saying Hi Lucy I'm Rowenna I've cast a spell for you so Sam can get back in the cage
5) Sam won't say YES -- he is terrified to be back there with Lucifer but he is stronger now and will be ok -- So lucifer can't get out of the cage without a vessel so if Lucifer doesn't have all his powers it should be somewhat easier to get Sam out Without a vessel he burns up / without full powers he can't stop them getting Sam This will totally destroy Sam's believe in god now.
In regard to how Dean got to the church, info about the church was on his computer in the bunker while they were discussing Sam's plan to go to the cage. Still does not make any sense why he would not stick with Sam after all the concern and objections he had with the plan.