This episode, written by Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner, begins with a grown up Amara confronting a courtyard preacher. She turns water to blood. She brings lightning to strike the followers.

The episode then shows Sam having a vision of the cage and there is a burning bush, which Sam takes as confirmation it’s from God. He shares this with Dean, who argues that the visions could be a trick or not real. Sam convinces Dean that he needs to see this through.

They contact Crowley about getting in the cage. He resists at first but when they tell him that Amara is God’s sister he changes his mind, in part. There is a way to get to Lucifer but he needs the Book of the Damned and someone to read it.

We find Amara in a random church, looking for God, literally. The priest says he’s available in the book and hands her a Bible. She is not impressed, let’s say.

Crowley captures his mother. The Winchesters seek her help. She laughs it off at first but they convince her, especially when she thinks she can see her version of the Beatles, who happens to be the Dark Prince, Lucifer.

In a warehouse somewhere, the angels meet to figure out rebellion.

But back at the church, Amara is gorging on church souls before yelling for her brother to get his ass down on Earth.

Dean investigates the church murders as Sam monitors a chained Rowena. Dean starts to feel funny and we see that Amara is near. She takes him to a field so they are alone, it seems. Back in the dungeon, Rowena is frustrated at being locked up and bickers with Sam. Finally she says she can get them to the cage and tells him to get Crowley. They’ll need supplies.

Back with Amara and Dean, we see them talking and discussing their connection and why Amara was exiled. She could do creation better. Amara and God have a tendentious relationship it appears. Dean tries to reason with her but she resists. Amara says she doesn’t want to kill God’s creation but she needs to see him so she’s using this to get his attention.

Rowena, Crowley, and Sam go to Limbo, where Crowley is hiding another cage that houses Lucifer. Rowena does the spell and the cage lights up. Lucifer appears, kind of like in the Shining.

Lucifer and Sam chat and Sam reveals that God is contacting him and told him to come to Lucifer to help combat the darkness. Meanwhile, Dean and Amara are debating existence. She does a kind of John Lennon move and says imagine the world without god, prayer, etc. She kisses him and he sees destruction. Dean turns and we see that he is going to stab her with his knife. When he does, the blade shatters. She can’t be killed that way.

Back in the cage, Lucifer says he can help but only if Sam lets him out and also Sam lets him in. Sam hesitates but says no, there has to be another way.

Back in the field, Amara tells Dean they are destined to be one. She is interrupted by avenging angels but they can’t kill her. She kills them and the sky opens up. She says that perhaps God is finally coming to answer her call. Dean watches as she gets swept up into a bright light and sucked into the sky.

The episode concludes with Lucifer’s cage losing the ward. Crowley and Rowena rush to the cage but it is too late. Sam is in the cage with Lucifer, who reveals that when the Darkness was released the cage was cracked and those visions were really Lucifer in Sam’s head. They are bunk buddies again.

Thoughts, Questions, Speculations:

1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?

2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.

3. What will kill Amara, if anything?

4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?

5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?

6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?

We have six weeks until a new episode. I hope everyone has a great holiday season! See you in January!

Put your thoughts, feelings, other comments below!

 

 

Comments  

Jen
# Jen 2015-12-09 23:12
All I say right now is BLOODY HELL one unbelievable episode I'm still tense & I'm actually crying My god My Sam he what survive this get him out SAm xxo
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-09 23:26
i'm not sure if Lucifer is lying or not. If he isn't lying....then my theory is that when the D was released, he felt it. If he did indeed end up with the ability to see/hear through the cracks....then I think Lucifer lured Sam to hell, not to be a vessel, because Lucifer knows that won't happen, but to use Sam as a way to get out. Sam is now in the cage with Luci, and I think his plan is to bargain for his freedom...."you want Sam out, then I go too".

I thought the warding on the cage was flawed on purpose by Rowena. So I was thinking that Rowena either wants Luci out for her own reason or simply wanted to get back at Sam by enabling luci to trap Sam in the cage. Not sure.....

I also wonder if Luci is lying and manipulating Sam once again...simply taking credit ...seizing the opportunity to get out....that's if God is truly behind Sam's visions and Lucifer just told Sam that it was him to shake him up and screw with his head....Amara told Dean they were bonded because she wears the original mark and Dean bore it....but so did luci....I was kind of wondering if luci were free and out of the cage, would Amara's hold on Dean break and she be drawn to Luci, the original bearer of the mark?....if so then I can see God enabling Lucifer's release.....tha t luci might actually play a part in helping the Winchesters even if luci isn't aware of it....Dean needs to be free of Amara if he and Sam are going to defeat her....so I can see why luci might be necessary on earth....at least temporarily.

I don't think amara can be killed...I still think she can only be trapped again...which is why the empty was mentioned by billie the reaper to sam.

I don't think sam will be a vessel. I do think he'll get out of the cage....the question is...will luci get his freedom along with Sam....I think it's possible..and I think that perhaps, God is aware of what the deal is and may want Lucifer out....especial ly if luci's presence can break the hold amara has on dean.....becaus e I think the Winchester's are God's aces in the hole....

I was under the impression that Rowena purposefully screwed up the warding on the cage....i'm not sure if she's trying to get back in her son's good graces....she wants luci out because she wants to hook up with him....or she has other plans entirely....all I know is I don't trust her....but I do enjoy the hell out of her.

the promo confused the hell out of me.....but I do think sam will be out of the cage in the next eppy.....but I think luci might be also.....:o
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 00:46
Initial thoughts. Stream of consciousness so may rambles Times -

What I thought interesting was when Rowena was asking what was in the cage and Sam said Lucifer and then Dean said 'an archangel so powerful.that God personally dropped him into.the cage' - her reaction? She was holding back laughter. And then Dean's reaction to her reaction, as if he suspected that maybe she knows something they don't. And then my mind goes back to Rowenas little solstice orgy and I have to wonder - could Lucifer be Crowleys father? Weird I know but it might explain some of the weird things about him. Like red smoke.

The other thing I was wondering about is say Lucifer is telling the truth and he was communicating with Sam. Who says all those visions were from him though? Or the burning bush? Maybe the bysh was God's nod to Sam. Lucifer wouldn't necessarily know every vision Sam has had.

No whistles. I guess it means the train has reached its destination.

When Amara went to suck Deans soul was she unable to or did she decide against it and went for the kiss instead? And by "becoming one" or whatever she said, does she mean in the sexy way or the Dark/Good Charlie way? I still think that's going to come into play eventually. I thought she kissed him out of curiosity. She did say he fascinates her.

Where did Rowena take Crowley? Did she know what was happening and to save them she transported them to an alternate universe (hiding Sam as a Funko? Or was that Dean?)
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-10 08:05
There was a whistle I'll have to go back and check where. I had my CC on and is said "train whistle", so the train is still part of the motif. I mean enough that CC got instructions to include it. I wish I had kept this year's episodes so I could watch with CC and see if there are any that we missed because they were too quiet.
CyanaT
# CyanaT 2015-12-10 23:22
Percysowner, Alycat -there were train sounds during the angels meeting - then there police or ambulance sounds ; it struck me in this episode that there were both sounds, train and 'siren' like there was in Plush (at least). I have to rewatch each episode. This is the first time that I recall neither brother being present. Sam was 'in Hell' and Dean was with Amara assuming both storylines were occurring simultaneously. To me it seems there's a lot going on that isn't 'obvious' (ex. Is Lucifer telling Sam the whole truth when he said he sent the visions?)
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 05:39
Lucy is out next ep Its definiatly him in that santa suit
blsedbx3
# blsedbx3 2015-12-09 23:30
Okay , 1st of all great roller coaster ride . No neither God nor Angels took Amara. That was her . All her she went to wage war on Heaven in retaliation. She needs Dean for the future ..I think she will make him a GOd or at least offer it to him . Its always a bad choice for them to separate .. its a lesson they have to learn the hard way ...before anything will turn out right . If Dean becomes God and Sam the Devil they can hug each other and as brothers banish Amara again and then that power will explode the boys out of the entities leaving Lucifer as himself and God back in Heaven and it will right all the levels of the playing field. Crowley will be king of Hell and Rowena trying to suck up will get her just deserts and be on the run from Fergus. This story line was hurried a bit . But to get the lie and then make the audience go WTH and then convince them of something else and bring them back to the lie again was just brilliant. Rollercoaster ride in a freaking loop. Those books there is a second book in Eygyptian lore ... use it . Use Bast Godess of light and darkness to give boys immortality (9 lives) and to beat Amara. There were other Gods out there before God ... he says so in the Bible . You should have no other Gods before me . Why say it if there wasnt . He was jealous and commanded our loyalty . Death was older than God ... so there is another storyline . It will also get you out of the once they die they arent coming back that Billie the reaper told Sam. Great ep in all .
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-12-09 23:50
The best thing about the episode, to me, was the performance of the Js. They brought a lot of commitment to poorly written words and just huh? actions. The Winchesters are smarter than what was written for them tonight. I wonder if Dean's not answering the phone and being there for Sam will be brought up future episodes. I understand that he is mesmerized, or rather stupefied by Amara, but the end result is still Sam in the cage with Lucifer. I wonder if he'll blame himself for that. I also wonder if Rowena has an end game of being in partnership with Lucifer or maybe already is? Amara sees herself as destined to be with Dean so why not Rowena seeing her destiny in Lucifer? It'll be interesting to see where it all goes.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-10 00:12
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up? I'm thinking you mean Amara and I'm guessing that God has nothing to do with it. I think the angels swept Amara away although I don't think it will end well for her.

2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do. Lucifer lies, a LOT, so I'm not sure.

3. What will kill Amara, if anything? I don't think Amara can be killed. Trapped again, perhaps, but not killed.

4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean? I'm interested in it. It's a change to see Dean truly attracted to the "bad guy". I hope it doesn't turn sexual because I don't need that. I think she tried to suck his soul, but couldn't, but I don't know exactly what that means.

5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice? The boys don't do well when they aren't together, so yes, kind of. I would also say that having Dean go to a possible Amara sighting was a bad choice as well. Dean knows about the bond between him and Amara. He should have stayed with Rowena and let Sam handle the Amara murders. OTOH, I don't see any way Dean could have stopped what happened. He wouldn't know if the wards would hold any more than Sam and Crowley did.

6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she? Rowena wants power. I don't think she was helping Sam and Crowley. I think she sabotaged the spell to help Lucifer or to get Lucifer to help her.
Grace232
# Grace232 2015-12-10 00:48
I SO do not want to wait until January 20! Can I just say - I actually won a $10 bet on this episode - bet my sister that it was Lucifer, not God, luring Sam. I know a lot of people guessed this - but I am rarely correct on my guesses, so it is a treat for me. What an episode! Okay - on to your questions.
1. I think it was the Angels - and ?I think she is going to massacre them.
2. I believe he wants out of the cage and to make Sam his puppet. Speaking of the cage, though - QUESTION - I thought Michael was in there with Lucifer? That cage looked like it just had one occupant. Anyone know?
3. I agree with Percysowner. Amara can be locked up - not killed.
4. I was fascinated by the scene with Dean and Amara. It was like he was in a trance and could not answer that phone. The kiss surprised me. She really is seducing him. The bliss thing is interesting too. Remember she did that to the babysitter in Thin Lizzie before getting ticked off with her and taking her soul.
5. Yes, he should have waited for his brother. Dean will now go to Billie to get him to hell to help his brother and they will be working together again. I am intrigued that both brothers are vulnerable. Right now Sam is in most danger, but I think Dwan's danger will be bigger in second half of season. I love that they are both looking out for each other and even if they get out of sinc for an episode, they are getting right back on track within an episode or 2 this season.
6. Rowena wants to be the queen of the witches - any way she can get there.

Have ?I mentioned I'm loving this season?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 01:54
They summoned Lucifer to that cage by Rowenas spell. That way they didn't have to open the actual cage and Michael/Adam were not an issue. This time.
Grace232
# Grace232 2015-12-10 15:04
Thanks Alycat22. I completely missed that nuance!

AND - whoever manages the board (Bardivoice?). I am learning - responding to one person - I hit a button and somehow "reported" Aly's post rather than responding to it and could not figure out how to turn it off. Apologies to you and Aly. I need remedial lessons!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 17:52
Trust me it's not my first time attending that rodeo! It's fine, they will see it was a mistake. :)
Debra
# Debra 2015-12-10 01:36
I thought Jared and Jensen said that the boys will not be possessed by anything it looks someone is lied, if Sam is lock in the cage with lucifer then it looks like Sam his no way out. And lucifer will not let Sam go tell he says yes. So much for telling the truth.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 01:50
We've yet to see what happens. I'll go with with what Jared and Jensen said. Things could change in the back half of the season that they aren't privy to yet. It all remains to be seen.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 01:47
So sirens now. As well as thunder and lightening. But sirens. Is this the new new substitute for the train whistle?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 02:03
Wait. A possible train whistle as well!!! I have to research tomorrow when I'm not half asleep. Will report back. But sirens guys! Sirens! A new clue/mystery??? Yay!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-10 02:09
More towards Silent Hill. The episode had pretty creepy and strong music too.

- Lilah
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 03:45
Alycat 3 seperate train whistles at the angel get together scene When you take your focus off the angel conversation and listen to the background sounds you will hear 3 distinct train whistles
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 04:46
Interesting. I'm glad. I was starting to go through withdrawal symptoms! I would have missed our train sound companion. ;)

Also each time a siren, train whistle or thunder and lighting is heard it shows in the Supernatural Transcripts by Forever Dreaming. Looks like the siren was heard three times. Twice in the same scene and then again in a later one . The first time was the scene where Sam, Dean and Crowley are discussing Sam talking to Lucifer, the second time is when the angels are having their group think tank.

I'll give a listen tomorrow on my rewatch. ;) We are such sound queens, aren't we!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-10 09:10
Yeah for trains. And I thought for a moment that the meeting between Crowley, Sam and Dean was at a train yard....?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 12:59
Could be. There were some homeless people in the background too. Rewatch is in order!
CyanaT
# CyanaT 2015-12-10 23:35
Very observant Jen! The continuity and the 'Peanut M&M's' (train whistle, sirens, at least) are back to early season Kripke-level, even if the writing is not. ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-11 04:24
What? We have Peanut M&Ms? Where?! Oh, you mean leaving a trail...got it. I'll just let myself out...
CyanaT
# CyanaT 2015-12-10 23:30
There were also sirens in Plush (at least); I didn't think too hard about because it was a police station.
MK
# MK 2015-12-10 01:52
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?
Originally I thought the angels, but I'm now moving toward God. The moving, thunderous clouds were similar to those that struck down the believers at the start of the episode. And Amara did seem surprised to see them. If it is the angels then she'll start laying waste to heaven, so I think God got her out of there. Maybe he wants to protect his sister as well.

2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
No, I don't. If anything, I believe the visions came from God more than ever. God doesn't make anything easy, but he does help those who help themselves which is what Sam did. Sam knew this was coming, he knew there would be pain involved, because nothing big ever comes easy. Either Sam will come out of the new Cage with some information about how to stop the Darkness, or after his time in the new Cage, when Sam will come out retaining his faith in God despite all he has been through, he'll get his answer then.

3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
I don't think she can be killed, nor should she. She can be put away though. Perhaps Lucifer is the key to that.

4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean? Uncomfortable, and not particularly excited. They're 'drawn' to each other? After 3 seasons of Dean being led around by the nose by something I'm not particularly looking forward to another one.

5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
No. Sorry, but Sam can't always wait around for Dean to finish banging whoever he is banging in order to act. This isn't Sam waiting in the car for Dean to finish with the twins ala season 3. Add to that, what could Dean have done? Absolutely nothing. If Dean had answered the phone and he did come back, the same decision would have been made and Sam would be in the exact same position.

6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
She wants to make mischief. Sure she helped, but helped who? Crowley did seem mightily concerned about Sam all the way through this, so perhaps Rowenas actions will spur him to help Sam.

While the writing was clunky in places (the angel call to action scene was particularly poor), certain scenes made up for it. I enjoyed Rowena and Crowley in it, and the scenes between Sam and Lucifer were amazing.
CyanaT
# CyanaT 2015-12-10 23:53
Quote:
Add to that, what could Dean have done? Absolutely nothing. If Dean had answered the phone and he did come back, the same decision would have been made and Sam would be in the exact same position.
I've read the same Sam criticism (over not waiting) multiple times on several fan boards/twitter and your response is great. Even if Dean re-cuffed Rowena with anti magic cuffs after she completed the warding sigils, he could have done nothing to prevent the warding from failing. Neither of the brothers can read the Book of the Damned. Yes, he could have killed her with witch killing bullets but the result would be the same - warding failed and Sam pulled into the Limbo cage. Hostage situation, at least.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 02:31
Well I thought it was a pretty entertaining episode. I wasn't a big fan of Ruthie's performance, I just wish she would dial it back a notch or two. All the eye rolling. I think she is better (and less grating) when she is a little more subtle. I had been sure it was Lucifer communicating from the cage instead of God from the get go. Except for the 10 seconds I thought it might be Micheal. I agree with the people who thought Amara was going to soul suck Dean and then called an audible at the last moment when she couldn't seem to. He engaged in the kiss but also seemed manipulated at the same time. "What was that?". I really hope it doesn't turn sexual that would be so wrong IMO. Especially if her hold on him is forcing the issue. I think Amara got sucked up by the angels and she will dispatch them straight away. She seems impervious to harm. Rowena wasn't surprised at the ward fail so she has an agenda and it isn't rescuing Sam I'm sure. Poor Sam. Jared's performance was great tonight. Sam will be fine. Sam will be fine. Sam will be fine. I am encouraged that they didn't show Lucifer taking Sam's vessel. Does he need permission again? I think if it were going to happen they would have showed it in the cliffhanger. That's what I am telling myself. Amara better not get between Dean and his brother.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 03:49
Lucy asked for permission and Sam said a defianate No at least twice. I feel Sam is more in control this time and stronger in his belief. Sam will stay strong. Although that one singel tear towards the end of the cage scene was gut wrenching. Hold on Sam
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 15:15
Hi Jen I was just wondering if giving permission once lets that angel have an open invitation from then on? Or do they need permission every time? I don't recall canon on that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-10 15:57
Cas inhabited Claire and threatened to keep her before Jimmy said yes the second time. We also saw the bartender that Gadreel possessed say yes a second time after Gadreel was driven from Sam's body. And Lucifer was asking Sam to say yes both inside and outside the Cage, so it looks like they need consent every time they want back in.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 16:28
Thanks. I heard him ask but wasn't quite sure if he needed permission.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 17:56
I suppose to simplify the situation an angel could always draw up an Unlimited Possession contract and get the vessel in question to sign it... ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 19:06
Jen, I meant to tell you I love your avatar!
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 20:46
He is gorgeous isn't he I've decided to give in to my love of Sam and shout it to the world - I could help you with a avitar if you wish xxoo
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 04:53
I found the words "What was that" strange. If our intrepid hunter knows nothing else he knows what a kiss and the subsequent arousal is. So why those words? Was he just surprised she laid one on him? Was it a crappy line written by our beloved Nep Duo? Or did she show him something that we will find out later or was he just reacting to the strong feeling from the kiss. Not necessarily sexual - maybe the bliss she keeps blathering about. ;)
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 05:56
I think it was the sudden calmness, or bliss she goes on about. Amara is just won big child chucking a hissy fit and she has powers to go with it I think the Dean / Amara story line is just something to add drama to everything other than this pull or fate connection it appears to be going nowhere. When Sam gets out of the cage he better have a good chat to Dean about it. Crowley spilled the beans now and Sam didn't look impressed
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 15:30
The way I interpreted it was he went with the bliss flow but was able to pull back and go "What was that?". I didn't feel it was entirely consensual. He doesn't seem particularly flirty or drawn to her in that way usually when he isn't in her presence. The closer the proximity the more he seems to feel the bond or draw or whatever it is. I am a little fuzzy as to why she wants to be "one" with Dean. I am not sure why the MOC "connection" is causing this. I didn't see Dean feeling the need/urge to lay a wet one on Cain.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:06
Ohhh that would qualify as a special whole new episode of Supernatural After Dark! ;)

Yes. Is she going to possess Dean as in a vessel (too predictable) or more of a merging of them both ala Dark/Good Charlie? I kinda saw that kiss as her curiosity more than predatorially sexual. Dean responded but not in his usual "really into it" way. Poor guy looks so confused when he's around Amara, like he's trying to wrap his head around it and figure her out but is grasping at/coming up with nothing but straws.
PSG
# PSG 2015-12-10 18:29
God abd Amara might join dark Charlie/light Charlie style. Light Nd Darkness... caprice. Dean isn't her missing half.Their encounter was all kinds of interesting.. I agree. He retained enough control to stab her and question her actions. He seemed concerned for her well being. It's more than the MOC.... but what. Servant of heaven. Righteous man. And what does being one with her mean. Is her body aging and when Amara is used up she will go into Dean. It's not the same as bliss of soul eating.
Lucifer/Sam is pretty played out. SO IS,Sam beING so easily manipulated because he needs to feel special. Guess,what.... Lucifer does think you're special!!! Sam always says,yes eventually.
Rowena is not the partner you are looking for Sam.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 18:31
Quote:
I didn't feel it was entirely consensual.

I agree that the kiss was not initiated by Dean but it certainly became reciprocated. Looked like the same french reaction he had with Pamela in heaven. I think this whole Amara - Dean connection just got more ambiguous. Dean seems to become immobilized or slightly hypnotized by Amara. This is dangerous because if she chose to or could, his soul would be gone. He just stood there when she took his face in her hands and he knows she sucks out souls. This is why I find the fact he he tries to kill her not credible in the sense of bad writing. How does he suddenly find his own mind/ wits and attempt to kill her?
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 19:24
This whole bond thing is so fluid. He seems to be able to overcome it at times. I am not sure what the common denominator is for when he can snap out of it except for when Sam was in danger. But he couldn't ,I gather, seem to find his wits enough to answer Sams call. I have a hard time believing he wouldn't answer a call from Sam if he could. Why couldn't he shake off her influence then? Confusing.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 19:08
Quote:
I didn't see Dean feeling the need/urge to lay a wet one on Cain.
Hah, good one. although that would have made for a more interesting ep than most of what we got last season!
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-10 20:27
Actually, I am growing a bit tired of the Dean Amara thing already. The concept is good I think, but like many of the plot lines revolving around Dean it need clarification, specification and action. Basically all we've really had so far is Amara alluding to a strange "connection" her wanting to "be one with" Dean and that they are connected through the mark. None of it is very specific and it hasn't changed that much in several episodes, actually, since the first episode where we were told they were connected, were told she wanted to be one with him and were told that they would always help one another. Not much has changed. It's time to get this part of the story rolling and having Dean sitting around denying that there is any sort of a problem is not the way to get things going. I'm sorry, but it's dull watching Dean be continually stupefied and ineffectual in her presence. Lets get this ball rolling writers! Dean needs to put the conflict into perspective for himself and for us, and to FIGHT. Having Dean fight Amara, fight his own preoccupation with her would be far more interesting than watching her monologue while he just stands there.
pSG
# pSG 2015-12-10 18:12
Their encounter was all kinds of interesting.. I agree. He retained enough control to stab her and question her actions. He seemed concerned for her well being. It's more than the MOC.... but what. Servant of heaven. Righteous man. And what does being one with her mean. Is her body aging and when Amara is used up she will go into Dean. It's not the same as bliss of soul eating.
Lucifer/Sam is pretty played out. SO IS,Sam beING so easily manipulated because he sidestepping special. Sam always says,yes eventually.
Rowena is not the partner you are looking for Sam.
Debra
# Debra 2015-12-10 03:07
Also in supernatural if anyone notes Dean was not in any danger. At all it's all ways Sam in some king of danger the writers also pick on Sam and loves to put him in a dangerous positions. And this gets old every time Sam makes discussion it's always the wrong ones. This is so very tiring.
Debra
# Debra 2015-12-10 03:50
One last thing in season five of supernatural called the swan song and by the way I hated that episode I was not happy to see Sam go into the cage. Now it's happening again and I am not please, I did not like this episode. Again Dean was not in any danger only Sam let's pick on Sam again the writers like to have fun. Always, always Sam. Dean does not get in danger when it comes to Micheal as his vessel, but Sam most of the time gets in danger when it comes to Lucifer vessel. I better stop now because I am getting MAD
pSG
# pSG 2015-12-10 18:03
Well Amara did try to eat his soul and couldn't. That's interesting.
Russ
# Russ 2015-12-10 03:54





Fuck Rowena. Kill her. Move on. Don't care to learn the actresses name. She doesn't deserve the effort. It's the most over-acted steaming pile of horse shit I've ever seen. Worst acting in the entirety of the shows existence. It's horrendous.

I haven't commented much on this show in recent weeks - because I've been happy. The more I like, the less I feel a need to comment. I've loved it.

Rowena changes that.

Oh, and then the moment happened. That moment. Sam comes face to face with Lucifer in the cage. The epic moment of all epic moments. The encounter we've all anticipated for 5 years ... and how does it play out?

"Sam Winchester. My old roomy. Hug it out?"

What was that shit?


Edit: Reformatted to clarify who should be killed (a character), who shouldn't be killed (real person acting as character), and removed a few (but not all) F-bombs.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 05:04
Nep Duo script. That conversation between Sam and Lucifer could have been written so much better.

I liked the ep for the most part except for the lame Angel meeting and the even lamer Angel attack on Amara. Though I did like the different ways she killed them. ;)

On the preview for next episode can anyone figure out what is carved in Cas's chest? I AM ?

I'm thinking that original vision of John was God sent. Possibly the burning bysh? The rest were from Satan. John said God helps those who help themselves which is basically the same thing Dean keeps saying to him. Oh Sam. OPT.
pSG
# pSG 2015-12-10 18:01
I am what I am is God. That's basically what Yahweh means. It's from the old testament. So either Cas is looking for God or God is riding him. Maybe he was running from God.

Explain to me later how Sam insisting that they do tbis , guilt tripping Dean to let him do it, racing to do it when he was supposed to do research in preparation for possibly doing it, and being fooled by Lucifer because of his own hubris and needs makes Sam in the Cage Dean's fault.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 05:24
Russ WE DON'T NEED ROWENNA A WASTE OF WATCH TIME
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 15:47
[edited]
Sorry Russ I misunderstood you.
lala2
# lala2 2015-12-10 17:03
I'm almost positive he wasn't referring to the actress when he said "kill her." I'm pretty sure he's referring to the character of Rowena. He wants Rowena off the show; he doesn't want the actress murdered. What I got from his post is that he doesn't enjoy the actress so he doesn't like the character and wants the character gone from the show.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 17:25
Ok lala, you might be right. I DID get he hates the character, that's ok, but from the way it was worded I thought he was referring to the actress. I will remove my post I may have misinterpreted his comments. For the record I thought it was in bad taste not a serious call for Ruthie's murder.:D
Russ
# Russ 2015-12-10 22:59
Oh crap. Sorry. Hahaha. Death to characters, not real people. I think I'll jump back and edit that post a little.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 23:29
That's ok Russ:) I jumped the gun a little on that!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 20:15
Russ, I had the same reaction to Rowena in this episode but not in those words. I think you either like her or not. I also have advocated for the killing off of the character because to me she is mundane and tedious. If she is written better and tones down the drag queen performance, I can tolerate her and she may serve a purpose in the myth arc. This pivotal scene of Sam confronting Lucifer was trivialized by Rowena's presence and her point of view of lusting of Lucifer and admonitions to her son about raising him. The complete focus should have been Sam and Lucifer alone circling each other.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 04:20
This has to be up there as one of the best for me. Yes there are probably many flaws which will be looked at and discussed over the next 6 wks. But for me watching it even the second time around the suspense and the anticipation was very raw, it held my attention from woe to go.
I thought the story flowed well, maybe the angel gathering could have been better, but they needed it as a way out for Dean that was obvious. I don't think they knew how else to end the Dean & Amara scene, the angels obviously don't know she's gods sister. They wouldn't have gone head on with her otherwise.
I don't know why Dean had to investigate the church masacre he surely knew it was Amara. He was with Sam trying to reach Lucifer, Dean left Sam vunerable to the 3 most powerful people. He asked Sam to ring when they were going to do the spell - he knew the call was from Sam he chose to ignore it over Amara. Amara's bond on Dean is strong but when Dean looked away he was able to break it breifly and attempt a stabbing. Dean is not in anyway interested in her Amara seems to be childlike in her actions, she is a adult but acts like a child. She's angry but more so in a stamp your foot have a tantrum huffy way. I won't it why can't I have it God made it I could have done better she is very jealous doesn't understand that part of the journey in life is to trust, believe, kindness, family, love, friends, pain, hate, death This is what gods world is and the reward is a place in heaven, to Amara this is manipulation. The smiting from the angels wouldn't have hurt her in anyway if it could they would have done it eons ago. Dean is more concerned about the humans who will get caught in the backlash Like in the apocolypse.
I to believe she was going to take Dean's soul this is her way of becomming one but I think in a strange way she might love ?? Dean he does appear to be able to make her stop and think. Dean doesn't care for her its this horrid bond she has over him Dean & Sam may have got rid of the MOC but not all the residule emotions.
I still believe its god talking to Sam this is gods way of asking Sam to believe in himself Lucy is the master of manipulation and he is going to try and rattle Sam Sam needs to hold on to his believe and strength and god will reward him. Yes Rowenna knew that spell would only last so long, and since Lucifer was in another cage and the warding was down he was able to use his powers,
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-12-10 05:15
If this is some part of God,s plan then Sam deserves better. He keeps taking on pain that he should not have to so somebody better care and somebody better reward him for all of this because he was not totally to blame for the darkness or the consquences leading up to her release.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-12-10 05:24
I KNEW IT! I knew it was Lucifer from the moment Sam had his first vision! I am SO glad it wasn't god. It was that cunning and manipulative Lucifer! Oh that last minute played out beautifully. Sam shedding a single man tear in fear, the horror on his face as the truth his home. Well lets just say it was far better than S10's mid season finale. Yes it was written by that duo but I liked it. It wasn't terrible unlike Bad Seed..
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 05:50
Remember John Winchester said God helps those that Help themselves. Thats what I meant. Sam is facing his demons Sam will win this time If there is to be blame ? For Sam being in this situation it falls on Rowenna, Even if Dean was there with his brother the results would be the same. Sam's belief in god brought him to this decision Sam believed he was right. Its disappointing how easy people can blind us when we what to believe (or manipulate)
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-10 06:30
Not a bad episode at all, and for this writing team downright miraculous. There were still problems IMO: Rowena, as penned by these two, is nearly unwatchable. She's back to being a buffoon and as irritating and grating as lye. And for some reason the tone in some of the dialogue scenes was off, most notably in the Angel scene and in the Amara/Priest scene. The nep duo has this amazing ability to make all these otherworldly characters sound pedantic, ordinary and dumb. In Our Little World, R. Berens managed to make teen Amara sound like this otherworldly and mysterious creature. But under the nep duo's writing she sounded like a Real Housewife; and I could have done without her screeching at the sky. What is it about Ross-Leming/Bru ckner's dialog that makes all the actors overact? It was a bit better in her scene with Dean, at least she seemed more poised and menacing. And the angels scene? Ugh, they sounded like teamsters or dock workers; very awkwardly written. And where is Cas? He could so easily have been worked into this episode in any number or ways - he could have been in on the cage deal or with the angles as they fought. Given how hard a time they've had making his character relevant in recent years, I have to wonder at them not using him when it seems completely obvious that he would be involved. Another thing that bothered me. Why Rowena's insistence that they do the spell "NOW?" That urgency was unsupported in the writing. Sam could have waited until three years from now if he'd wanted to, there was no reason for him to go ahead without Dean. But having said that, Sam waiting for Dean probably would not have changed the outcome at all... clearly Rowena has some other plans up her sleeve. She betrayed Sam here and was probably using this spell as a means to get back at him for last season. And Dean..... this is what you get from keeping secrets Dean; your brother in a cage with Lucifer. Had he been up front about his connection and his weakness when he's around Amara, then they could have been more careful about him going ALONE to a scene where it seemed likely that she was involved. And geez, these writers CAN NOT write dialog, they are so bad at it. Clunky awkward, attempting to be funny and failing miserably. I enjoyed the scene between Sam and Lucifer, but was pretty aware of how much better it could have been under a stronger writer. It wasn't bad and some of the visuals, especially Luci's red eyes, and the views of him lit from below were creepy and effective, but the dialogue weighted everything down. It's like the nep duo was trying too hard to be cryptic and failing to do so. The cage scenes were the highlight of the episode for me. I found the Dean/Amara scenes interesting on the one hand, and a bit dull on the other. I was intrigued by the fact that it appeared she tried to suck out his soul and seemingly couldn't. I think that might be important for later. And while I find the whole Dean mesmerized by Amara due to the Mark idea intriguing, I am ready for them to move forward with this now. Dean needs to acknowledge this connection, be open about it, and start flat out fighting it; it's getting boring watching him stand around in a stupor and doing nothing. And how awkward was that angel attack? They looked like the keystone cops falling all over themselves. Were we supposed to be taking that seriously? Were we supposed to be afraid that the angels were any kind of real threat? Why did that come across like Wyle E. Coyote launching an attack agains the road runner? It was dumb and cartoonish.

A couple other things... I would have liked to have seen a quick montage that showed Amara growing from her teen state into her current adult state at the beginning of the ep. That would have generated a good deal of tension and rounded out the way they've been showing her evolve since episode 1... she's at full strength now. Also, Lucifer is SAYING that it was him all along, tempting Sam back to the pit? But is that true? Lucifer is the original opportunist. I'll bet it really is God, but Lucifer saw an opportunity to get what he wants and he's using it. I feel that this is true the same way that I feel that Death is not dead. I guess we'll know pretty soon. If Sam's visions stop now, we'll know that they are from Luci, if they continue they may be from God. And what was up with that promo!! Is that an episode? My jaw was on the floor! Mark Shepard in PJ's with feet saying about his Funko Pop doll "Mum, I got a Sam!" WTF??????:p

Overall verdict, B. It was a good episode in a lot of ways and a miracle for this writing team in particular. It suffered from all the same problems that always plague this writing team; poor dialog, not great pacing, trying to cover too much ground in one episode, a cartoon feel and a lack of seriousness or gravitas. Still though, not bad for these guys and no real canon destruction so I'll count it as a win.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-10 07:24
BoGirle I and many others are totally confused with that promo-- Did Rowenna whisk Crowley off to a alternate world hoping to hide from Lucifer, makes sense until you see Crowley playing a child with a Sam funko doll Looks very well WTF :o:o:o:o:o
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-10 12:21
I'm very certain the Christmas scenes in that promo was just them having holiday fun. I'm pretty sure all of that is not going in to be in the next ep. I'm stunned that so many people think it's real.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 13:15
In retrospect it makes sense. Why would they have an episode that touches on Christmas a month after the fact. Clever.

What threw me was the comedic aspect - thinking that that was where they were going - it was like whiplash. Deadly serious to Ben Edlundesque? So yeah. If it was a bit of holiday fun, I'm good with leaving it at that.
Miggymom
# Miggymom 2015-12-10 13:54
Yeah, I figured that too. Either that or they are taking the fans with them into the ninth circle of hell.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-10 16:33
Specially with Crowley and his Funko Pop Sam toy. I think that was a dead give away.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:13
Hey now, remember the Amara/Mary Tyler Moore strolling down the street to Girl, You'll Be A Woman Soon and how it unintentionally caused people to think it was a commercial? It's all Shows fault. They unwittingly set the precedent!!! ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:14
We don't know what to believe anymore! ;)
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 20:22
Quote:
I'm very certain the Christmas scenes in that promo was just them having holiday fun. I'm pretty sure all of that is not going in to be in the next ep. I

Why are you so sure? Is it jut a gag? Have they included scenes in an official promo before that were not really in the next episode?
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 00:42
We don't know what to believe anymore!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-11 04:20
Great minds think alike! Either that or there's an echo in this joint... ;)
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 20:37
Alycat I was tired and agreed with your response so copy pasted it Thanks LOL
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-11 09:26
Quote:
I'm very certain the Christmas scenes in that promo was just them having holiday fun. I'm pretty sure all of that is not going in to be in the next ep. I'm stunned that so many people think it's real.
Quote:
Specially with Crowley and his Funko Pop Sam toy. I think that was a dead give away.
Hmmm....so the promo was just a way to have some holiday fun and it isn't going to be an actual episode?? I *guess* that could be the case, but.... I don't know. There are so many other explanations. Seems like a nightmare/dream sequence to me, maybe an alternate reality. One that Lucifer creates to put everyone through 'hell'.

If you notice, the *only* people in the holiday scenario are the ones that were down in hell at the end of the episode (Lucifer, Crowley, Rowena, and Sam [as a doll]). When we see Cas and Dean, they aren't part of that Christmas themed sequence. So, I feel like the promo is showing us something that Lucifer, or whomever, creates while in hell down there. And then the episode is going to be about Dean (and probably Cas) finding a way to get all of them out of hell or that state that they are in. That's my guess.

At the very least, my first guess isn't that it's just a gag. It just seems like Lucifer gets the upper hand for a while and alters their reality or puts them through some kind of dream sequence state, in which (of course) he's in charge as Santa.

But, what I'm most interested in, aside from the holiday stuff, is what in the hell is carved onto Castiel's chest!!!???!!!! I can't make it out for the life of me.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-11 13:25
I was wondering why it would be in an official preview if it was just a gag. If it is a gag then it will be aired in January.
BUT.... WARNING POSSIBLE SPOILER in my happy fantasy world, it is the fine work of Gabriel who is the only one to create alternative universes. He steps in and removes Sam from the crapfest and is working on behalf of God . Yes, I know but the promo did say it was a Christmas gift!!!!!!!!
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-11 20:28
OMG OMG OMG!!!!! Now you have me ALL EXCITED that it *could* be Gabriel!!!!!!! My second favorite angel ever!!! LMAO! If it is him, then it will be the best belated Xmas gift ever!!!!!!

I just can't help but notice how the only players in the Christmas scenes were the exact people that were in hell, and only those people. I can't think that's a coincidence.

OMG, so excited at the possibilities now! LOLOLOL I'm such a dork.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-11 14:17
Scifispirit, I had the same thought you did, that the weird scene is something that Lucifer did. Because in the clip, it briefly showed Lucifer (at least I think it was Lucifer) touching Sam's head the way Cas did when he broke Sam's wall. So maybe the whole thing is imagined by Sam? Although I'm not sure what Lucifer or anyone else gains by doing this to Sam. Well, maybe the viewers gain because it looks entertaining in an odd way. Kind of like Changing Channels.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-11 20:37
If it is him (Lucifer), then I'm guessing the sequence will be a way to teach Sam a lesson or something.

The only thing I can't figure is Rowena. At the end of the episode, she looks like she has some kind of upper hand. She's walking Crowley down some stairs and her demeanor is like someone who was just waiting for things to play out. She seems aware of something we are not. But, in the promo, she looks bothered and annoyed by what she's going through. She's wearing that red nose and just definitely doesn't look like she is in any kind of control anymore. So, maybe she tries to control Lucifer but Lucifer creates the alt reality and overthrows her....? I don't know.

SPNLIT just suggested that it could also be *possibly* Gabriel creating the alt reality, which is totally his M.O. I would so so so love that!
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 20:41
You Ladys are so clever and I did see Lucy touch Sam's forehead as well. OK I'm going to add some more speculation, what if its not LUCIFER inth cage but Gabriel ??!! (AKA The trickster )
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-12 00:32
I'm Dying!!! That would be epic!!! Honestly, that would be THE PERFECT twist for this fan girl right here!!!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 08:59
Jen, I don't know how Gabriel would be in the cage, but as soon as someone (spnlit? sugarhi? both?) proposed awhile back that it was Gabriel who sent that first vision to Sam, I was on board with that. Because he is the only one who could say "I never could fool you" and have it make sense. And he is the master at altering reality.So my thoughts then were that Gabriel was sending the visions at God's behest. It could only have been God who brought Gabriel back from the dead. So, like others, I'm clinging to the hope that it was NOT Lucifer who sent the visions, but Gabriel, and that he will continue to assist Sam in some way, because God wants him to. And yes, it would be awesome to have Gabriel back in some fashion.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 12:38
I do stand corrected when I said Gabriel is the only one who can make this crazy alternative world. As PSG pointed out, Metatron, Zachariah and Balthazar also created pocket universes. So, it is possible that Lucifer can pull off this trick; but I am holding out that it is the Trickster because it looks like his wackadoodle sense of humor (Changing Channels) and it is Christmas present. Of course I am also staying in holiday mode, riding out the despair of the last episode, re-watching the episode with Sully, and pretending God is involved and Sam's character development will continue. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays everyone!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-12 13:00
I posted a new theory on Alice's thread that the wacky preview is showing Lucifer's attempt to warp Sam's thoughts to try to trick him into agreeing to be possessed by Lucifer, just as Gadreel and Dean tricked Sam in S9. I love this idea, especially if Sam doesn't fall for it.
Shante
# Shante 2015-12-10 08:09
hi BoGirle, again you pointed out the problems that were in this episode for me, and i agree with every word. im just gonna say thank you
Shante
# Shante 2015-12-10 08:13
my garde is a B- for the weird dialog, Dean not answering Sam, and the stupid kiss
Shante
# Shante 2015-12-10 08:15
as for the promo: :o:o:o no comment
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-10 09:15
Yeah....weird doesn't even begin to cover it! :o
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 16:20
I agree with almost everything you stated about the writing of this episode, Rowena, the angels, the new super deluxe grown up model of Amara.... except I would toss the episode into the shredder and start over.
Quote:
Lucifer is SAYING that it was him all along, tempting Sam back to the pit? But is that true? Lucifer is the original opportunist. I'll bet it really is God, but Lucifer saw an opportunity to get what he wants and he's using it.
I agree. Lucifer only capitalized on the idea and said it was him after Sam gave him the info. It may also just be wishful thinking. I enjoyed Sam's journey in faith and thought it was great character development. I will be disappointed if it turns out to just be a redundant slap in the face to Sam, his faith gets tossed and Lucifer will once again be able to screw with Sam's head.
vince
# vince 2015-12-10 17:25
What? There was nothing otherworldly or mysterious about how Berens wrote Amara. He wrote her like a pissy teenage girl, there was literally nothing special about how he wrote her.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-12-10 17:49
I'm having the same issues with it. What is up with Dean? I can't tell if it's Jensen's acting choices or just.....I don't know, but is he unwilling, unable, feeling too peaceful? It's getting seriously infuriating. And is he deliberately not telling Sam, or is he unable to tell Sam? Because you know if Sam knew the truth, there's no way he would have let him go off by himself, or in the very least, he would gone to look for him when he didn't answer the phone. I assume they're dragging this out because of the suspense, but they need to get a move on with it, it's becoming annoying.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 18:36
Quote:
And is he deliberately not telling Sam, or is he unable to tell Sam? Because you know if Sam knew the truth, there's no way he would have let him go off by himself, or in the very least, he would gone to look for him when he didn't answer the phone.
Actually Sylvia, that is another one of my big gripes with this ep that I forgot to put in my comment. When Crowley questioned Dean about what happened between him and Amara after she threw Crowley out, and why she had made sure that Dean would not be harmed, Sam looked very surprised. Clearly this was new info to him. So you would naturally expect him to QUESTION Dean about it, since it's a pretty significant piece of info. And you would think that this news would have made Sam cautious about letting Dean go alone to investigate the scene of Amara's most recent atrocity. How could they just drop that? They love having Dean call Sam on HIS secrets and this secret of Dean's was a doozy with potentially catastrophic effects on their ability to fight Amara. But nope, not one word about it. That was simply ridiculous.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 19:02
I think it is part of the duo's ability to make everyone seem stupid or out of character. The Sam of this season would have certainly called Dean out on this issue. Sam also would not have allowed Dean to go looking for Amara alone. Plus Sam already knew something was up with Dean when Cas questioned Dean about why he did not kill Amara.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-10 20:54
Yes, this writing duo is continually 'forgetting' obvious things so that they can get their story to hang together. Such as Cas not resurrecting Charlie. Stuff like that.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-11 00:55
Cas not resurrecting Charlie would fall on Dabb, who wrote the episode right after them. If their edict for the episode was, "kill Charlie" that's all they have to do, bringing her back to life would be the next writers duty.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-11 06:24
Unless they decided to bring her back in the same episode, which they could have done but didn't because they conveniently forgot that Cas can heal people. That's hardly Dabb's fault, its the fault of the writers who killed her and that would be Ross-Leming/Bru ckner. And they not only forgot that Cas can heal, they also forgot that Charlie was a ninja... something established only 2 episodes earlier. They also forgot that a man with one arm will most likely bleed to death and not be much of a threat physically to anyone, especially a ninja with the fighting skills Charlie possessed. They "forget" things all the time, that's why their episodes suck.
MK
# MK 2015-12-11 02:27
I don't think Sam would have. Sam understands there's a bigger picture at play, and he tends not to focus on smaller things like Dean's lies and deception. Part of me thinks that Sam almost expects it from Dean so he's not exactly surprised when it happens and the other part of me thinks that Sam is bigger than getting his back up about things like that. He doesn't take it as a slight on him. It's a pity because if the whole picture was revealed then it might have (a) changed the way they considered what to do about the visions and (b) swopped their roles in this episode ie Sam would go and Dean would stay. Still, what's done is done, and I don't expect this secret to be brought up again in the future.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-11 13:44
I am not talking about Sam ignoring or expecting what you call Dean's lies and deception. I think Sam would have least cautioned Dean not to seek out Amara or go alone, once Crowley spilled the beans that Amara saved Dean. Sam is smart enough that this added info along with what he already knows means his brother is in serious trouble. Sam knows that what Dean already told Sam; Amara saved him before, things are quiet when Dean is with her, she talks to Dean and Castiel pointed out his suspicion that Dean could not/ did not kill Amara. I am just saying that it lack credibility that Sam after spending a year to save his brother would ignore the warning signs that God's sister has a special interest in his brother.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-11 14:23
I agree. My complaint isn't that Sam didn't give Dean crap about the secret, it's that he just let it drop without questioning Dean further. Any connection between Dean and Amara and any knowledge about her objectives or weaknesses would be important in coming up with a strategy for fighting her. And Sam is very smart, as well as being the one who loves doing research. He should have been all over this, trying to figure out what it means.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-10 20:51
I agree. Having Dean not talk, not fight, stand around in a trance is getting seriously boring. Dramatically it's going absolutely nowhere. Since when is Dean Winchester PASSIVE?!? Since never, that's when.
MK
# MK 2015-12-11 02:31
What's also getting boring for me is that this is the fourth consecutive season where Dean is being led around by the nose by something. In season 8 it was the PTSD/Benny that made him act as he did, season 9 Gadreel was forcing his hand, season 10 everything Dean said/did was blamed on the MOC and being a demon and now it's Amara. i can't remember the last time Dean was actually deemed responsible for his own actions.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-10 08:12
Well acted and directed, good VFX but the script was a contrived steaming pile of crap on par with Season 8's Taxi Driver. And let's completely forget about canon and the show's history. So very disappointing after the strong start to Season 11.

So did Rowena intentionally screw up the warding, is Lucifer that powerful, or was this all a trick/illusion by Rowena? Lucifer is still stuck in the cage, though, isn't he?

Crack in the cage - that does address the fact that Lucifer would have been messing with Sam all along since he and his soul got out of the cage. But... were all those visions from Lucifer? In S6, when Dean brought up the possibility that Lucifer was using Sam as a meatsuit, Castiel said no, the angels would have felt if Lucifer escaped the cage. Wouldn't the angels have felt it now if Lucifer was able to reach out beyond the cage? And where the hell was Castiel? Since he's had some success with getting things out of the cage, you'd think maybe the brothers would have asked him? And likewise about Sam's visions?

1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?
Angels - they had threatened to do so.

2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
Nope; not entirely convinced all those visions were from Lucifer and that Lucifer isn't just messing with his favorite chew toy, Sam Winchester.

3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
Nothing; can only contain/lock her up.

4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
Weird; Amara is sucking up the souls which as we know is a great source of power. She appeared as though she was going to consume Dean's soul before changing her mind and kissing him. Why did she change her mind? Is it something about Dean's soul, maybe the fact that he was destined to be Michael's vessel? I ended up with more questions than answers. And physically she may have aged but she continues to act like a petulant little brat having a temper tantrum.

5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
Wait... didn't Sam call Dean and Dean blew him off? Contrived nonsense. Hindsight is always 20/20 so yes, it was a shit move to go to the cage.

6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
She wanted the codex back but there's something more going on.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 19:14
Quote:
She appeared as though she was going to consume Dean's soul before changing her mind and kissing hi
m.

Some viewers think that Amara COULDN'T suck Dean's soul, but I interpreted it the way you did, that she just changed her mind. I would have preferred almost anything to that kiss.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 19:47
More ambiguity that is reminiscent of the MOC. Did Amara change her mind and go with Plan B the kiss or was she not able to suck out Dean's soul? Either way, a look of confusion crossed her face at the time.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 08:17
Well, I was disappointed by this episode. Partly because my expectations were so damn high. The set up for this ep was mostly brilliant- all of those terrific, intricately plotted eps. This seemed even worse by comparison. The biggest problem for me was the dialogue. I agree with every word E said about the dialogue and how either it, or the direction, resulted in some poor acting.

Quote:
The nep duo has this amazing ability to make all these otherworldly characters sound pedantic, ordinary and dumb. In Our Little World, R. Berens managed to make teen Amara sound like this otherworldly and mysterious creature. But under the nep duo's writing she sounded like a Real Housewife; and I could have done without her screeching at the sky. What is it about Ross-Leming/Bruckner's dialog that makes all the actors overact? It was a bit better in her scene with Dean, at least she seemed more poised and menacing. And the angels scene? Ugh, they sounded like teamsters or dock workers; very awkwardly written.
E, I was going to say all of this in my comment but you said it perfectly so I'll save myself some typing. These writers are seemingly incapable of writing any subtle, restrained dialogue.

Aside from that there were a few other things that really bothered me. I enjoyed Amara's quest for God. Like everyone else she is frustrated that he is in the wind, so I enjoyed that part of her plot. I even liked the odd connection between her and Dean, and I liked her whisking him away to that field. But there it got annoying. I don't understand why she would need to "bond" with a mere mortal, regardless of whether he ever bore the MOC. They better have a good explanation for why a god-like being would ever even want to be so connected with a human. But I was willing to wait and see where that goes until the kiss. I've been fearing this since before the season even started- some kind of love connection. It's just a pile of crap. It reduces this primal force to just another chick who can't resist Dean's charms, and saps her of the mystique she had. I was pretty pissed about it.

Another thing about that scene that bothered me was the sudden appearance of the hapless angels. I think the writers forgot that the angels cannot fly anymore, so they should never have been able to appear there so quickly. So much for the great continuity this season.

The best part of the ep for me was the cage scene, but that could have been so much better in the hands of better writers. It should have been just Sam and Lucifer alone. Every time they cut away from them to Crowley and Rowena it sapped the scene of all of its energy and tension. Especially when they have Rowena drooling over Lucy- again, what a way to strip away all of the aura of power and menace that Lucy has in spades by having Rowena lust after him. But when it was just Sam and Lucy it was awesome, although again I think that Lucy's dialogue could have been so much better. It's a testament to Mark P that the scene was still awesome. The first appearance of his glowing eyes was amazing, and I like the way he prowled around the cage like an lion. And Jared was brilliant. Sam is such a person of faith, which has led him to this point in time. He has never lost faith in Dean or Cas no matter how many times they gave him cause, and we see that he has never lost his faith in God. I don't know if Lucy is lying about giving Sam the visions, but either way Sam's reaction to the enormity of that revelation was heartbreaking. Just that one tear. and the look on his face. I thought those last couple of minutes in the cage redeemed the whole ep for me.

One final bone to pick- the score. I thought it was cheesy and intrusive, especially the weird choral music that accompanied Lucy's arrival. Like Rowena's campy dialogue, it lent a ludicrous air to a scene that that should have been one of constant tension and raw fear. I think it was the worst use of music I've ever seen on the show, like something out of a bad fantasy flick. It totally pulled me out of the emotion of the scene, although I'm sure the intention was the opposite. I hope I enjoy this ep more on a rewatch, and the problem was my high expectations more than anything else, because this ep should have been simply outstanding.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-10 09:19
You mentioned that the Angels can't fly anymore..... o.o Can you refresh my memory? LOL. When did that happen? For some reason, I think I've forgotten that myself. Cas has broken wings, unless I'm missing something there too....
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-10 11:04
When the angels were cast out of heaven at the end of S8 their wings were fried on the way down.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-10 12:42
oh yes, I do remember that. Their entire bodies were burning just like a meteor burns when it enters our atmosphere at high velocity. At least, that's how I perceived it. I guess I assumed that once the angels were returned to heaven and some kind of order was restored up there, they came back to 'full power' and their wings were restored/unbrok en.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-11 00:58
Nope. The fall didn't nessicarily cause the wings to burn off, it was whatever spell Metatron did. And it is evident that that spell was still doing its thing after we saw Cas had broken wings when he got his grace back.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-10 11:03
Yes the choral music was just awful. Has that ever been used in SPN before? Usually the musical score is so much more subtle, letting the excellent acting take the center stage. Agreed it was so jarring it took me out of the episode. The Sam/Lucifer scenes were very well acted. Unfortunately it was so telegraphed already it wasn't much of a shock that Sam ended up locked in the cage and that the visions were coming from Lucifer (except the one from Not-John. I think that one was from someone else).

I'm getting kind of tired of Dean/Amara going nowhere. Amara feeling sorry for herself and Dean just staring at her. And Dean Winchester one of the most cunning and smartest hunters on the planet tries to kill Amara with a knife? Not an angel sword or the demon killing knife just a big ass knife? Not a very smooth move.

I need to watch the episode again but on first watch it wasn't the worst ep written by those two but it should have been so much better.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 18:45
Quote:
I'm getting kind of tired of Dean/Amara going nowhere. Amara feeling sorry for herself and Dean just staring at her.
Agreed Cheryl. You know what it's starting to remind me of? The entire last season and the tedious MOC plot in which for episode after episode the plot movement consisted almost entirely of Dean rubbing his arm or looking grimly in the mirror (in the REALLY exciting eps he actually did both!!!!) while Sam feebly reiterated "we can beat this." I sincerely hope they have some more interesting developments on this plot soon, and that they don't consist of Dean being the first person to boff the Darkness.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-12-10 18:57
Next week on another exciting episode: Dean rubs his arm TWICE! :o
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 19:16
:D
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 19:17
I thought of the tedious MOC plot too when I viewed this episode because of the ambiguity and inconsistency. If they want me to believe that Dean cannot pick up the phone to answer the call of his beloved brother who is on a life threatening mission to talk to Lucifer because Dean is immobilized by Amara's presence then please do not have him be able to find the ability to stab her.
Alice
# Alice 2015-12-10 12:23
My expectations plummeted to zero as soon as I saw Brad and Eugenie were writing it. It wasn't great, but it didn't suck either. I could have been better, but with this duo it's one of their better efforts.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-12-10 13:07
Same here. I remarked somewhere else that at least they chose the mid-season finale to at least be a little competent.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 13:58
I agree with you and E. I also am keenly disappointed and will take it one step further. I think this episode was a grenade blowing up the carefully plotted brilliant buildup. These two writers should not have been given the privilege of writing the mid-season finale. I think all the characters suffered in this episode except for one- Crowley. Crowley was written well. He remained cautiously helpful and still in it for himself. Castiel was harmed simply by the fact he was MIA. He is pivotal to this part of the story, has knowledge of the cage and Lucifer and supposedly is staying at the bunker. I hope the writers provide a plausible reason for his absence. E is right- these writers dumb down and make all characters sophomoric. They spread their goofy dust over the show and suddenly everyone is an idiot. Amara is supposed to be a Goddess- the Darkness. Last seen, she is a menacing, confident young person unleashed in the world. She finally emerges as the built up all powerful adult and is ruefully, and merely as NJSPNFAN stated a "petulant little brat having a temper tantrum." The big reveal is that all she wants is to get even with God oh, yeah, I forgot, she also wants Dean Winchester to be one with her being.... these two writers will have them getting married. I found her sarcasm, annoyance, and childish argumentativene ss, seriously disappointing and boring. I found her wondering around like a child looking for God laughable. It was on par with Amara just looking under a bed or a closet..... are you here God? She should have known he was not physically on earth and could have at least been written as knowing that small fact and going about her business in a more thoughtful intelligent way with more substance or purpose. (there must be another way;) I liked the idea of the angels having a rally to deal with the Darkness. I was disappointed that the demons were not included as a continuation of the meeting in the bar. Then we get this idiotic confrontation of a mere three angels who should have planned a bit better at their meeting. It was like a bad western.... three stupid cowboys come to take in the sharpshooter... . bam. bam. bam... - there -dead. Alarms went off in heaven when the Darkness was released, Darkness was the stuff of angel nightmares, archangels had a mighty battle to put the darkness away and we get the three stooges. Rowena was once again an annoying joke reduced to being petty and acting over the top as if a drag queen was playing the role of Ruth playing the role of Rowena. We did not need a another scene of bad Rowena being babysat by Sam... reminiscent of Castiel babysitting bickering Rowena and Charlie. Then we get to the pinnacle story-line being built up all season to what I thought would be the dramatic climax. Dean seriously did not want Sam to go near the cage. We had all those discussions. What happens in this episode is not in sync with the past action nor the character of Dean. It is contrived. Without much discussion, Dean is now on board with the idea of Sam going to the cage. The plan is quickly hatched, again without much discussion or thought and NO consultation with Castiel. The idea is to consult Lucifer to learn how to destroy the Darkness. This is huge. The past episode build up was allusions to Swan Song where Dean stood by Sam. But where is Dean now, out alone chasing the Darkness with a knife. Really? After all the discussions, his fears, what he knows, he leaves Sam alone? The fact he did not take Sam's call during this crucial pinnacle mission is beyond stupid. Sam just told Dean in his last conversation that he, Sam was NOT SURE about this whole plan. Dean would have and should have given his Dad voice order for not another move until he gets there and he whips himself in the car. Its okay if he could not have done nothing or it was all too late but Dean would not have let that slide. But no, next call Dean cannot even take Sam's call, because he is so entranced by the feeling that the darkness is near... BUT later he can muster the stamina and snap out of his stupor to stab the Darkness. Furthermore there was no indication that Dean progressed to the point he overcame Amara's hold on him or that he had mustered the determination or motivation (other than to protect Sam) to stab Amara. Then we get the much anticipated pinnacle scene of Sam and Lucifer at the cage ridiculously sans Dean but rather Crowley and Rowena in attendance. Thus far, Sam is smart, determined, having visions and intensely working on overcoming his fear. For some ridiculous contrived demand by Rowena he goes it alone to the cage. Sam said he promised to call or wait for Dean. You think Rowena's off the wall response would have been a red flag to Sam to wait. "Promised Lincoln a fun night at the theatre... plans change. Then we have the whole dynamic scene with Sam and Lucifer continuously interrupted by Rowena's lust for Lucifer and smart ass remarks to Crowley about raising him. Could anyone imagine this juvenile banter on the sidelines of the pit in Swan Song? Saving grace for this debacle of what should have been an intense scene was Jared's acting and red eyed appearance of Lucifer. The dialogue between them was weak. I would toss this episode in the shredder, fire the writers give the director a vacation and start over.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 18:56
I agree that Crowley came off well in this ep. I like when he is a pragmatic, self-interested , but evil, demon. However, as I said in my comment, I wish he and Rowena had not been present at the cage. For the same reason, I'm glad Dean wasn't there, although they should have come up with a better pretext for that. The cage scene should have been all about Sam and Lucifer, period. I do agree that their dialogue, especially Lucifer's, could have been much better, but I still found the scenes between the two of them electrifying. Those two are simply phenomenal together, and I would absolutely love an entire ep of them in the cage, with Sam overcoming his fear and engaging Lucifer in a battle of wits and will. As it was, I can't shake the image of Sam's stricken face, and that single tear, after Lucifer said that he had sent the visions. Just heartbreaking.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 14:08
Double post
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-12-10 21:06
Quote:
It reduces this primal force to just another chick who can't resist Dean's charms, and saps her of the mystique she had. I was pretty pissed about it.
This is a good point. God forbid (pun intended) that a female character be above such mundane things as a physical attraction. Why is this godlike figure even sexualized in any way? It demeans her as a character to be compromised by something so trivial. And like you said, they haven't explained it very well. They basically did the same thing Rowena in this episode too. Here she is, discovering and casting one of the most powerful spells we've ever seen on this show, and she's debased to lusting after Lucifer? Doesn't she have more important things to capture her attention? Ugh. It's basically quite sexist and it drives me nuts that one of the writers is a woman.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-11 14:12
I agree that it trivializes Amara to have her want to bond in any fashion with a mortal. But the problem was the kiss. it was physical and lustful and what demons do to seal a deal. So if they want us to believe she wants to bond with Dean in some godly way like merging their beings then leave out the kiss and the seductive cleavage. I had no problem with Rowena lusting after Lucifer. She lusts power and he is as she said an alpha. I just would have liked her to convey her lust in the next episode and not as side-liner while Sam's confronting his great fear. Males lust in this show too. Dean, Sam, Gabriel as the trickster, Balthazar Castiel with Meg, and Crowley who has time for an orgy no matter what is going on!
muub
# muub 2015-12-10 08:23
Holy effin' shiet that was the best episode of Supernatural since season five! That was just so epic!

Man I just hope that in the next episode it's not gonna be so that all angels are dead and killed by Amara.
elle2
# elle2 2015-12-10 08:51
Reading this makes me glad I turned it off about 15 minutes in, when the angels were having their useless conversation in the warehouse. I'm under the weather anyway, and decided to go to bed as I was falling asleep anyway, and especially because I'd be able to fast forward through boring parts like Rowena whining and angels debating. Now I can just delete the whole episode. Sam with a cracked noggin due to Lucifer was boring and poorly done in Seasons 6 and 7, we surely did not need it again in Season 11. This season, so full of promise, just crashed and burned. Don't care about January 20th return at all if Sam as a blithering idiot due to bunk buddy Lucifer is what we're waiting for. Once again, it makes absolutely no sense. Where did Crowley get 'another cage'. What happened to the real one and why wasn't Micheal there. How or why was Crowley able to separate them without disrupting anything?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-10 11:06
Unfortunately when you ff through the Rowena scenes (which I totally get) you miss the parts on how they got Lucifer into the holding cage.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 19:01
Quote:
Don't care about January 20th return at all if Sam as a blithering idiot due to bunk buddy Lucifer is what we're waiting for.


While I was very disappointed in this ep, I don't think that is what's in store for us in Jan. If it is, I will be extremely ticked off. I'm thinking (and hoping) that all this groundwork they've been laying for Sam, of overcoming his fear and doing whatever he can to save ALL of the people, will enable him to somehow overcome the trauma of this latest trip to the cage, and maybe even somehow outsmart Lucifer. Anything else would be repetitive and a huge disappointment.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 19:22
In that last scene was anyone else expecting Lucifer to belt out a "GOOD MORNING VIETNAM!!!! No? Just me then...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 19:35
That would have been on a par with "Hug it out?"
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 19:49
Yeah, if he screamed it! ;)

I hated both lines by the way.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 20:34
You make a good point AlyCat22. The conversation in this episode was strongly like the torment Lucifer inflicted on Sam in the hospital but we were told was not real and all in Sam's mind. Maybe it was real after all since he is acting in the same way. This is another reason I was disappointed in the exchange between Sam and Lucifer in this ep because I thought we would meet the Lucifer who was beaten by Sam by diving in the pit to the cage or the one that batted around Sam's soul until it was unrecognizable. Instead we got the quippy imaginary Lucifer who was tormenting Sam. Looks like the time in the cage had no effect on Lucifer.
Vince
# Vince 2015-12-11 01:02
Lucifer was always pretty quippy, and I'm pretty Sam's hallucination of Lucifer was a representation of how Lucifer was in the Cage. Outside of the physical torture.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 20:06
I agree Samandean. I really don't think Sam is going to be in that cage for long. I think he will outsmart Lucifer, or be rescued immediately. I also think God will make an appearance to Sam at some point. I think he has his hand in this somewhere. Sam deserves to be rewarded or acknowledged for his faith, IMO. I am thinking positive thoughts for the next episode. Sam needs a win. They need a win. If Sam is a blithering idiot it would just be too cruel and yes repetitive.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 21:56
Quote:
I also think God will make an appearance to Sam at some point. I think he has his hand in this somewhere. Sam deserves to be rewarded or acknowledged for his faith, IMO.
From your lips to God's ears Leah.:) That would make me a very happy viewer.
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-10 09:11
Powerful episode. I have so much to comment on, but first, for now, I just wanna respond to some of the people here who are saying that Lucifer lies.

Yes, I do believe he does lie and yes, we have all seen plenty of plot holes and discontinuity in the past that I could be wrong here, but.... Lucifer very clearly told Sam when they first met "I will never lie to you." And, I gotta say.... I believe him. If...and I stress IF the writers are going to keep any continuity, then Lucifer is not and should not be lying to Sam. Now, maybe he *lied* when he said "I will never lie to you", lol.... and then it just gets confusing. hahahha. But, for me, personally, I have bought into the "Lucifer is a misunderstood villain" set up. I remember clearly, by the end of season 5, I hated Michael. LOL. I did. All the tricking and conniving that the angels did to get Dean to say yes to Michael. I didn't like Lucifer either, but at least with him, I knew who/what I was dealing with. Michael wasn't so much evil, but I almost felt like he and the other angels had less morals than Lucifer did/does!

I'm trying to remember if there ever was a time that we knew *for sure* that Lucifer flat out lied to Sam about something, and not as a joke or as sarcasm, but as a true lie... my head is swimming from last night's episode, so nothing comes to mind. Please, though, correct me if I'm wrong.

In my honest opinion, the angle they are playing at is that Power corrupts. Not a new concept, but a solid one. Lucifer is powerful, being the second born. And the power has indeed corrupted him. By his own admission, he's said "I loved my father too much". But!, Michael is more powerful. And I think Michael is more corrupted. We don't know where Adam/Michael is. He should have been in that cage with Lucifer, as far as I knew. Maybe he's in his own cage, or maybe there'll be backstory about how he was able to get out of hell and has been back in heaven the whole time. I don't know. All I do know is that I'm personally more inclined to *trust* Lucifer (not saying I like him or will fight for him, just that I will take him at his word) more than I would trust Michael or any other Archangel besides Gabriel. So, if he told Sam the visions came from him, then....right now anyway....I believe him.

*sorry, had to edit this to add more content*
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-12-10 09:37
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?
The angels. In fact, I think it's possible Michael was a part of that. He's not in the cage...so... It could be wishful thinking, but if we are bringing Lucifer back into the fold, then I would want Michael to play at least some role too.

2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
YES! Yes, I do believe him. I've always believed him. Lucifer is an enemy to humans, but not to Sam and not to himself. He's always believed that everything he's done has been the right thing. That's part of his problem. He takes responsibility for his actions, but has no interest in redemption because he's convinced he's doing the right thing.

3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
If Amara is as old as they say, I do not believe she can be killed. Perhaps if there's another "big bang" in the universe and everything gets a do-over. LOL. Otherwise, I think she can be contained, but not destroyed.

4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
I'm intrigued. Right now, I'm looking at it as a Bram Stoker's Dracula story. He was a vampire that sucked blood. Essentially, Amara is the same, sucking souls. But Dracula fell in love with a woman whom he forced himself to not feed on, but eventually did. I see a slight parallel with Amara. I can't say that she's "fallen in love" with Dean... eh, no. But she's drawn to him, connected to him, and therefor she wants to feed on him and take his soul, but at the same time doesn't, or won't. I just find it interesting at this point, but I'm also waiting for the moment when she just goes away.

5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
Yes and No. They are always better together. But, Sam is smart. He makes the hard choices. And both of them going to hell would be like "putting all your eggs in one basket". Imagine if Dean was there with him in that cage with Lucifer. I'm sure Lucifer would not hesitate to kill Dean. So, right now, I think I don't have enough information about the outcome to know if it truly was a good decision or not.

6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?
She definitely has her own agenda. I think she wants to tap into Lucifer's power. I think she wants to go all the way and try to take over if she can. I don't care too much for the character, so beyond that, I can't say.

The only questions I have right now are about Cas. :( Makes no sense that he wasn't there. The writers better show that he was trapped by someone somehow or working things in the background to excuse him for not being there. Also, does anyone know what was carved into his chest in the promo??!!!???? I can't make it out!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 13:32
We don't know yet if Michael/Adam are still imprisoned or where they might be because we didn't get to see the "Cage". Rowena painted the sigils... on a different one which they were used to summon/transfer Lucifer to so that they didn't have to run the risk of opening the real one.
Sakii
# Sakii 2015-12-10 10:34
1. Ohmygodohmygodohmgodohmygod.
2. Where is God?
I mean you would have thought he'd show up by now for SOMETHING.
Is he in trouble?
Are the Winchesters about to go intergalactic?
Is this about to twist into a search and rescue for god?
Are there so many parrell universes that he may not even know what's going on?

eh. You'd think that with his sister, that one would get his attention. But no.
So.. IS he okay?
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-10 10:53
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Amara up?
I don't know how it could be angels but if they have some kind of doom machine that did that then it was angels. Otherwise I need to say God. That effect was pretty awesome btw.

2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do. I do and I don't. I have pretty mixed feelings about him.

3. What will kill Amara, if anything? I think she can't be killed. She can be contained though.

4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean? I need to know more about it because it doesn't sound good what ever it is. They have the connection but what troubles me that she said they need to come one. Does she mean she needs to suck out his soul? Or is Darkness only complete if they are one. That would be a twist. ALSO, Amara answering to Dean when he asks how she looks "I look like this for now" Gave me goosebumps.

5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice? No, it actually sounded pretty safe for what they tried. Crowley snapping them to hell. Rowena delivering only Lucifer to the "mirror" cage with warding (It is clear where Lucifer appears is a different cage) so Michael/Adam would not be there and they would not need to open the real cage. Of course, I think Rowena did something that the warding didn't hold. And well, Dean was already influenced by Amara and her presence to not answer Sam's call.

6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she? Power, and she is helping but for her own gain. I think we will learn more about that later.

I loved the music and the special effects were phenomenal in this episode. I don't actually remember them using this much effects in one episode ever. A lot was jumped over to thug everything in to a one episode. I think it was said that Crowley had been keeping taps on mother dearest so she was easy to find. And I was wondering how the angels were that fast where Amara and Dean was and then I remembered they had that tracking thing also to Metatron and Amara wasn't quiet in her actions. I mean she blasted believers and made a massacre in a church. Angels knew where she was. I am certain. Only complaint that I really have is. WHERE the HELL was Cas? I mean, from an episode that he actually made sense to be and I don't know HELP OUT? He was MIA. But I guess he must be on the next as they have said the episode has two parts really.

There was a lot happening so I need to check the episode again now that I have fully woken up to concentrate on everything. And for people that are wondering the promo. I think Lucifer is having some fun with all three of them because they thought they could outsmart him. In January we will see and I can't wait!

- Lilah
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 13:40
Cas is currently binge watching Game of Thrones and then there's OUAT and reruns of Jerry Springer and Judge Judy. He should be caught up sometime in January. Sam should never have given him his password and user name. Cas is taking Netflix and chill to a whole new level. ;)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-12-10 18:07
Aly, btw new words from the episode from hubby! He said the hod dog man is definitely GOD! SO the dramatic scene went off the rackets because I was laughing so hard and then I was... Wait, what if? :P

- Lilah
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:26
I had that same thought briefly flash through my mind as well but I dismissed it once he never talked to Dean when Amara sent him back - also was it the same hot dog vendor on his return? Maybe hubby is onto something... maybe the whistle we've been hearing is from a Oscar Meyer Wieenie Whistle?! Mystery solved! Thanks Mr. Lilah_Kane!!! ;)
Russ
# Russ 2015-12-10 12:46
Quick question ... Where's Michael? Aren't he and Lucifer suppose to be in the same cage?

Edit: just read Lilah'a theory on that in the post directly above this. Makes sense.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-10 12:50
Wasn't Lucifer transferred to a "holding" cage so Sam could communicate with him? They didn't mention Michael or Adam.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 12:53
I think Lucifer was summoned or transported to another warded cage in Limbo "neutral" territory for the meet. That wasn't THE cage.
Russ
# Russ 2015-12-10 23:07
You could be right. I'll have to watch it again. I zone out when I hear Rowena, so I miss stuff. I'll have to suffer through it this time.
Debra
# Debra 2015-12-10 12:53
I am glad the ratings from last night on supernatural was 0.7 with 1.9 million viewers, because the episode was very disappointed and it totally sucked.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-10 14:03
The ratings dipped because Arrow didn't overrun into last nights episode like it did last week. Arrows ratings took a huge hit without TF, down .4 while SPN was only down .2. It was to be expected that the show would adjust back to it's normal ratings. Since many viewers DVR the episodes the Live+7 will tell a different story.
Interesting that IMDB so far has a 9.5 rating for last nights episode.
Debra
# Debra 2015-12-10 12:59
I am glad the ratings from supernatural last night was 0.7/2 with 1.9 million viewers. Because the episode totally sucked. Maybe the ratings will go down some more today.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 13:46
The way you wrote this sounds like you are hoping the ratings will drop for the episode?
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 15:04
We get it, you didn't like the episode or the show in general. Fair enough but wishing for a ratings drop is taking it a bit too far in my opinion.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 15:05
oops sorry Alycat meant to reply to Debra
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:32
Oops, sorry. I should have read further down before I responded. I was just so surprised because I didn't think I was coming across that way and I was confused over what I might have said to convey that impression. ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-12-10 18:56
I confused the issue, no worries:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:30
No, you have it wrong. I wasn't the one wishing it got poor ratings! For the most part I liked the episode! It sounded to me the way Debra wrote it was that she was hoping it dropped cause she hated it.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 15:43
1. Do you think it was the angels or god who swept Rowena up?
I don't think it was God because we are not ready for a brother/ sister God battle. It seems like it was angels but if it is, the angels in heaven did not send the memo to the angels on the ground who apparently thought they were going to bring her in.

2. Do you believe Lucifer? I’m not sure I do.
No. Maybe just wishful thinking because I will be vastly disappointed if all this build up of having faith and conquering fear was just a big let down of another round of Lucifer screwing with Sam. It would be redundant and I think this season was on a better track. Lucifer did not come right out and tell Sam he was communicating with him and led him to the cage. Lucifer is just manipulating, capitalizing on the info Sam somewhat stupidly revealed to him.

3. What will kill Amara, if anything?
Nothing. She will have to be contained with a better lock and key; not to be given to Dean :)

4. How do you feel about the connection between Amara and Dean?
I thought it was intriguing until this episode. Now it is murky and on the verge of becoming contrite. The reason for Dean's trance like state needs to be revealed a bit more. He seems to be immobilized but why? I thought he felt protective but without no apparent changes or motivation he stabbed her. He does not seem particularly blissful. And then we had the kiss from Amara which was clearly reciprocated. Is the almighty female God of the universe feeling passion for a mere mortal (even if it is Dean Winchester) or is she reduced to using sex to manipulate him? Query: Did Amara change her mind about consuming Dean's soul if yes Why? OR Did Amara realize she was not able to consume his soul and went with plan B?


5. Was Sam’s choice to go to hell without Dean a poor choice?
I think it should not have been written as a choice. For this season, it was out of character for Sam and Dean not to be together for this main event. The reason for the separation was contrived and poorly written. Dean did not take Sam's call during the mission of a lifetime? Why because he was immobilized by Amara's presence but later was able to stab her? With that said, yes, I think it was a bad decision.

6. What does Rowena want? Why is she helping? Is she?

Rowena wants to be the queen of the witches. She also wants to go on a double date: Lucifer and Rowena and Goddess Amara and Dean. She only agreed to "help" when she learned from Dean that Lucifer was in the mix. She just capitalized on the opportunity to ingratiate herself to Lucifer, by screwing with the spell so to seek revenge on Sam and give Lucifer some leverage to get out of the cage.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:42
Well Amara has said she's fascinated by Dean. Maybe when she discovered she wasn't able to suck out his soul it surprised her so much that she became even more fascinated over this mysterious bond they share. I imagine it was rather unexpected to find that Dean is immune to her being able to consume his everlasting the way she so easily does everyone elses. I saw the kiss as more curiosity at that point than predatorial.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 20:40
Good point, I think you are right.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 18:57
Perhaps Lucifer is claiming credit for the visions Anne using it against Sammy. I still wonder though if the one with John in the car was from God or possibly Michael - cage is busted after all... Uriel dropped in on Dean's dream and Dean wasn't his vessel. I can't remember - was Sam awake when he saw young John driving? Just the whole God helps those who help themselves line which was exactly what Dean kept saying - to rely on each other. Burning bush could be God, I mean did Lucifer have the mojo to pull that off from the cage? Up until then all he'd done were the visions in Sam's head. This could all end up being important and tie together or its just more sloppy writing by Nep One and Nep Two. Show still has my interest to see how this all ends up. Hiatuses suck.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-10 16:35
Well, i'm one of the oddballs who actually enjoys Rowena, whether she's over the top or not. As a matter of fact, the more over the top she acts, the more damage I find her doing. I'm not sure what her game is, but she did purposely screw up the warding....not so Luci can get out or maybe so..but the warding seemed only strong enough to enable to allow luci to trap sam in the cage. So Rowena does want the Winchesters preoccupied at most....or she wants Luci out without being blatant about it. It would be obvious if she warded the cage in a way that luci escaped....but the way she did it....she could cry " i had no idea".....and it could be seen as plausible.

I don't think Luci sent the visions. That whole crack in hell thing ....not buying it,,,,and here's why...If luci could do it...then so can Michael....and if anyone would want to communicate with the outside regarding the D, it would be Michael, Michael is connected to Dean....and Michael is the ever loyal son to God. If anyone has a reason or willingness to help put the D back, it's Michael. Michael would also be able to recognize what Luci is up to and warn Dean...so I'm not buying into the whole Luci could send visions due to a crack in the wall. I do think more and more he's pulling a crowley. Crowley, using Sam to his advantage back in s6, lied and took credit for Sam's rescue from hell and used his so called hold on Sam's soul to get the boys to do what he wanted. I think Luci, who is quite smart, saw an opportunity and seized it. Luci knows God isn't making any kind of appearance, so he's taking credit for Sam's visions knowing that God isn't around to prove Luci wrong. Lucifer recognized the faulty warding....and so he knew he couldn't get out...but he knew he can trap Sam in with him. I don't believe for a minute luci actually believes Sam would consent to him being a vessel....he's messing with him....but luci does know that Sam locked in the cage with him guarantees his own release....Dean will buckle.....when he sees his brother trapped and tormented once again by luci....he will do anything to get sam out, including releasing luci.

I still don't get the whole dean amara thing. it seems by what she said that she's bonded to him because she is bearing the original mark that he wore? ok so there's a connection.,,,b ut i agree with those above questioning her need to become one with dean? is the mark part of what makes her all powerful? does amara collecting the soul of the one who bears the mark what completes her? Is someone protecting dean which is why she couldn't suck his soul? I'm very confused....I still feel like God is responsible in some way for Sam's visions...I also feel that due to pride, God would never just let Luci out and ask for his help.,...but I can see God enabling Luci to get out.....I can see Luci and his connection to the mark draw Amara in...thus breaking her hold over Dean. Once Dean's hold is broken, he won't be prisoner of her unknown demands...and he and sam can find a way to defeat her.

I don't think Sam will be in the cage for long....i think just for this one ep,,,,though it'll feel like a month:D.......I do think Dean will get Sam out....and I do think Luci will get out too.,..but i'm leaning towards that being what God's wants.

The reason I don't think Cas was involved in this eppy is because he most likely would've gone with sam and dean to crowley....and cas definitely would've recognized the faulty warding on the cage....Cas will most likely be involved with helping Dean get Sam out though.


;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 19:05
Maybe Michael couldn't get through to Dean because of this mysterious connection between Amara and Dean? Maybe Dean isn't receptive right now but Sam is, so maybe Michael reached out to Sam as in the vision of young John. Maybe. Who knows where they are going or what twists remain to be seen with all these storylines. ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 19:33
Count me as one of those oddballs. I really like Rowena when she isn't being played over the top which seems to be happening less and less. I always thought she acted that way to throw people off and not take her seriously. I love how she and Dean get under each other's skin. That scene an episode or so ago where Dean put his legs up on the table and kicked her bag off while staring at her. Her expression! And she plays off well with Sam as well. No love lost there, he knows not to trust her...

When the sigils and warnings started fading and the fire going out was that because of Rowenas underhandedness or did Lucifer pull it off on his own? He didn't seem terribly surprised it was happening. I have to rewatch again to get a better idea of that scene.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 20:44
Rowena was underhanded and caused the spell to fizzle out. Rowena was not surprised and grabbed her son and fled the scene. Lucifer is just crafty and took advantage of the situation.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-11 00:14
You're probably right. You know what I find funny is that Rowena would grab Crowley to move them both out of danger. Crowley. The son she hates. Hmm. She must still need him alive for some reason.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-10 19:44
Quote:
Well, i'm one of the oddballs who actually enjoys Rowena, whether she's over the top or not
I really enjoyed Rowena the latter part of last season, but this year I've found her to be mostly campy and annoying. And her presence and silly dialogue came perilously close to ruining the cage scene. I hope they make better use of her in future eps.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-12-10 19:16
OK, a little better on rewatch but still lots and lots of problems with the dialog and script in general. Some questions came up on rewatch -

Lucifer called Crowley old friend? Crowley was not around when Lucifer was locked up and went in to hiding in Season 5 because Lucifer wanted him dead. So how would they know each other? Because Crowley was Lilith's right hand demon?

The body count is getting up there so I don't think Amara can be considered a misunderstood deity at this point; definitely a bad guy; a spoiled petulant brat of a bad guy but bad nonetheless.

When Amara and Dean met in the field and the 3 angels confronted Amara; that looked like the same location they used for the church in Sacrifice. Can anyone confirm?

After Sam found out from Crowley about Dean and Amara's extra special bond, there's no way he would have let Dean run off to investigate on his own. Likewise, Dean would not have ignored Sam's phone call given what they were attempting, unless Amara's hold over Dean is a lot stronger than he'll admit. Dean isn't so stupid as to try to stab Amara with a plain old knife; maybe an angel blade or the First Blade but not a plain old knife; didn't make any sense, unless he knew it wouldn't work.

Rowena wasn't quite as annoying on the rewatch but a lot of the writers on the show just can't seem to write for her.

Wasn't sure if Amara couldn't consume Dean's soul, or changed her mind. She did say they will become one.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-10 19:43
It didn't look to me as if Dean thought it would work, he hesitated and had to screw up his courage/angers or shake off her hold somewhat? It was just a Hail Mary play with the only weapon he had on hand. He knew he had to at least try.

When Dean yelled out for Amara to stop before she killed the angel, did she hesitate at all? I think it's interesting - that Dean tried to stop her not because he gave a flying leap about the angels but rather her well being. He knew if she attacked that as the one angel said, all of them would combine their strength into one strike even she would never survive. Foolish angels.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-10 21:07
For me it got worse on the rewatch.
Quote:
The body count is getting up there so I don't think Amara can be considered a misunderstood deity at this point; definitely a bad guy; a spoiled petulant brat of a bad guy but bad nonetheless.
Agreed. Did not enjoy the current portrayal of adult Amara for the reason you stated.
Quote:
Likewise, Dean would not have ignored Sam's phone call given what they were attempting, unless Amara's hold over Dean is a lot stronger than he'll admit.
The problem is that he was able to break the hold to stab her. So, the hold issue is not a good enough reason for Dean not to answer Sam's call.
In this episode Rowena's presence and dialogue diminished the cage scene.
Quote:
presence and silly dialogue came perilously close to ruining the cage scene
I watched this scene several times and still cannot come to a decision. The look on her face makes me think she could not do it and then got more intrigued and kissed him. She did say they would become one but then he stabbed her. She is behaving like a brat so who knows.
PsG
# PsG 2015-12-11 01:02
Alycat, Rowena needs Crowley to get out of hell.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-11 14:14
Why would Crowley need Rowena to get him out of hell? Wouldn't he know the way?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-12-11 14:54
I believe what she's saying is Rowena needs Crowley to get her out of Hell. She's never been there, she was only in Hell Part Deux topside.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-11 17:25
Sorry I misread that. It just occurred to me that now Crowley has the BotD, the codex and Charlie's translation, plus the witch to do the spells. Oops....
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-11 09:11
I watched again and I've come up with my own theory to try to make Amara/Dean more interesting, because I have to agree that even upon second watch, my interest in her and the Amara/Dean connection has waned significantly.: ( Unfortunately this happens quite often I think. Show just can't seem to find their niche when it comes to a female villain. I do enjoy Rowena, and actually find her the most interesting and menacing female villain show has ever had. Amara started off great. I thought as a kid she was down right creepy with a sense of menace that had me all a tingle. Kids are creepy. Even though she was a child, I felt a sense of adult menace inside her. Now we have Amara as an adult...and I have to agree that it all boils down to her being a petulant child who didn't get her way and now she's taking her revenge out on the world simply to spite her brother. Not scary. Not mysterious....n ot very interesting I'm afraid.

One thing about show for the last 9 episodes is how it's been moving along storywise and I fear we've gotten used to it. For the most part of this episode, which I did enjoy very much by the way, it did move along...of course accept for Amara/Dean which is pretty much repetitious at this point. This of course leads me to be anxious about their scenes, wishing they would end so we can go back to the meat and potatoes of the episode, which is sam/Lucifer. Every other episode until this point I didn't feel the need for scenes to speed up and be over with because nothing is going on and it's boring. I hate the fact that I'm feeling this way about scenes that involve Jensen. :(

But what irked me the most about this episode, was the blatant absence of story flow. I usually don't even notice stuff like this...but this was so obvious that even I recognized it. Can someone please tell me how it's possible that in one minute we have sam, dean, Crowley and Rowena discussing the most dangerous missions they've ever been on......go to commercial....a nd then all of a sudden dean is at the church. The boys were with Crowley. They weren't in their motel room with a computer looking stuff up. Please tell me how the boys knew about the church....at what point did this information reach them during that meeting? does Crowley have alarms that go off that signal trouble? Does Dean have an alert on his phone that goes off every time there's a police situation? Did some demon come running in an interrupt their meeting...."bos s boss guess what just happened up above"?:o I mean seriously, how did we get during a commercial Dean in a meeting involving his brother going to hell....to him in suit at that church? This bothered me more than anything else....the implausibility of this scene....I get where the separation was necessary....bu t at no point did we get B. We just got A....then C....and no B......

whew...just had to get that out there....other than that, again for me enjoyable....wa s even able to find a way to get past the boring parts....but this time I just couldn't get past the blatant disregard of the story flow....

I think I have to agree that this duo should be demoted from writing such climactic eps ...they should just be allowed to write regular during the year and leave the big eps to writers more capable of giving us plausible episodes that don't feel like we're missing a very significant scene that leaves us all like....huh

I'm sure episode 10 will be handled much better.....so looking forward to it.
Jen
# Jen 2015-12-11 10:05
I have been wondering the same thing Is this what you Ladies mean when you say the story jumps around or is irratic I agree alot with what sugerhi has said.
I for the most part enjoyed the episode. I loved the visual affects of hell and the cage spectacular. The church scenes where amazing, the sky effects the fountain everything fantastic, Jared & Jensen on their game again and their acting was excellent. I am getting bored with this Dean/Amara thing move it along or end it for goodness sake Your wasting a excellent actors (Jensen) time having him mooning around over a spoilt brat who is pissed off with her brother that stood on her big toe eons ago. Last season you made Sam stand in the corner, is it Dean's turn this season ????

Sugerhi says ==

Can someone please tell me how it's possible that in one minute we have sam, dean, Crowley and Rowena discussing the most dangerous missions they've ever been on......go to commercial....a nd then all of a sudden dean is at the church. The boys were with Crowley. They weren't in their motel room with a computer looking stuff up. Please tell me how the boys knew about the church....at what point did this information reach them during that meeting? does Crowley have alarms that go off that signal trouble? Does Dean have an alert on his phone that goes off every time there's a police situation? Did some demon come running in an interrupt their meeting...."bos s boss guess what just happened up above"?:o I mean seriously, how did we get during a commercial Dean in a meeting involving his brother going to hell....to him in suit at that church? This bothered me more than anything else....the implausibility of this scene....I get where the separation was necessary....bu t at no point did we get B. We just got A....then C....and no B......

You got a commercal I watch no commercial just a brief black screen and thought hang on did I cut a scene out ???!! The boys as you said should have been so focused on Rowenna and getting to the cage that the outside world didn't really exsist, why / how did he get to the church. A brief ph call on Dean's mobile with a quick explanation to Sam would have taken up 30 sec of film time and would have been better than what we got. A big fat nothing !!!
1) I thought we were going to get more understanding out of this Amara/Dean connection. All I got was blah blah blah and more confused
2) Dean is shown to be quiet weak ?? when it comes to Amara - Sam ring me before you do anything - Sam rings - Dean ohh hang it I prefer to be with Amara ???? Sorry not Dean, If they needed to have Dean away from Sam in the cage scene, they should have had Dean take Sam's call and Dean saying on my way then Amara could have bailed him up whisked Dean off to neverland for her useless conversation with him which filled in or wasted 10 min of good screen time , at least we could except that and know that Dean tried.
3) Sam to Rowenna -- Lucifer is in the cage, Rowenna laughing lets get to it then boys -- Dean thinking her response to that strange but not saying anything That was off
4) I could never understand why anyone would let a witch do a spell particularly one this dangerous on trust alone. They can't read the book they don't know what she is saying or writing she is EVIL for goodness sake TRUST no thank you she could have been saying Hi Lucy I'm Rowenna I've cast a spell for you so Sam can get back in the cage
5) Sam won't say YES -- he is terrified to be back there with Lucifer but he is stronger now and will be ok -- So lucifer can't get out of the cage without a vessel so if Lucifer doesn't have all his powers it should be somewhat easier to get Sam out Without a vessel he burns up / without full powers he can't stop them getting Sam This will totally destroy Sam's believe in god now.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-12-11 14:35
Quote:
leave the big eps to writers more capable of giving us plausible episodes that don't feel like we're missing a very significant scene that leaves us all like....huh
I agree with you sugarhi. And that is precisely how I felt when there was zero conversation between the brothers after Sam found out that Amara had gone out of her way to keep Dean safe. You'd think that would merit at least a sentence or two!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-11 14:44
Quote:
I watched again and I've come up with my own theory to try to make Amara/Dean more interesting,
I would be interested to know what that is.
In regard to how Dean got to the church, info about the church was on his computer in the bunker while they were discussing Sam's plan to go to the cage. Still does not make any sense why he would not stick with Sam after all the concern and objections he had with the plan.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-12-12 17:43
Sugrhi15, I am correcting my last post. The info on Dean's computer in the bunker was about the preacher/ rally -lightening victims. So you are right.... nothing.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-12 17:55
I didn't think I saw them separate once they were at the meeting....but I can be forgetful...... I am going to post my theory in the threads....cuz it kind of ties in with the past......just waiting for nightsky to post.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-12-12 17:55
I didn't think I saw them separate once they were at the meeting....but I can be forgetful...... I am going to post my theory in the threads....cuz it kind of ties in with the past......just waiting for nightsky to post.
PSG
# PSG 2015-12-11 13:29
Metatron, Zachariah and Balthazar also created pocket universes. It's apparently something that angels do. Sam being turned into a doll really isn't very nice. It's a, comment on how Lucifer views his vessels.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-11 14:17
Are you referring to the promo? Crowley is a little boy holding his Sam doll? Satan is Santa? Rowena is Rudolf? And Sam is a doll? Where are Dean and Cas???
PsG
# PsG 2015-12-11 16:08
Rowena needs Crowley to get her out.. she's not a, demon or a reaper.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-12-11 17:27
Got it. Although all she really needs to do is find the doorway Purgatory, find Benny and escape by the portal. Easy peasy....
Stephan
# Stephan 2015-12-13 11:41
Imagine THIS plot twist : Lucifer gets redeemed by God after he deals with the Darkness, as it was done in the beginning... The lost child after having been rejected for eons, becomes God's favorite child once more...