Threads 11.05: “Could the Darkness be God’s equal, i.e. the Mother of the Universe?

WOW!

In tracking and discussing episodic clues all season, we were SO CLOSE to the big reveal! “Our Little World” didn’t include just one huge revelation, though, there were several! One after another. Answers, myth arc conclusions, surprises. The hits just kept coming. Let’s look at them all, one at a time.

Parents Family

Darth Vader: You cannot hide forever, Luke.
Luke: I will not fight you.
Darth Vader: Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a twin sister! Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side... then perhaps she will...

-          Star Wars: Episode VI Return of the Jedi

Did anyone else hear Darth Vadar’s voice echoing “You have a ………..sister” as Metatron revealed the biggest of all secrets to Castiel?? When Jared and Jensen first auditioned for Supernatural, Jensen originally wanted the part of Sam. Eric Kripke convinced Jensen otherwise, saying that while he had originally auditioned for the Luke Skywalker role (i.e. Sam) instead they now wanted him to try out the Hans Solo part (i.e. Dean). With Star Wars mythology having such a prominent presence in the creation of Supernatural, it was probably inevitable that someone had to have a sister! I just never thought about it being God! Is it a coincidence that Darth learned of it in Episode 6 of the epic movie, and we learned of Big Sis in Episode 6 of season 11?

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The Darkness is God’s… Sister! That has to be one of the biggest additions to canon for the entire Supernatural series!

I’ve spent a considerable amount of time tracking the references to family this season. Births, more than one “Baby”, bad seeds, moms, bad moms (including Rowena), dads, grandmothers, uncles, nannies, parents, babysitters, growing up, growing old…the list has been endless. Wednesday has also been tracking the pervasive feminine imagery in her visual reviews of the episodes: Seeds, flowers, pinks, ancient civilization feminine symbolism, framing the word “she” in shots, statues of the Blessed Mary Mother of God and so many other underlying themes of the feminine. Clearly the idea of a strong female presence in this year’s plotline was foreshadowed. Did I ever imagine a sibling for God? To be perfectly honest, no. Since before the season began, I have been on record that God would have some strong, close personal relationship to the Darkness. I theorized she was the dark side of His soul, or the dark side of the universe’s soul (referencing last season’s exploration of the “Good” Side and “Dark” Side of everyone) so a huge mythological leap seemed inevitable given the scale and build up surrounding the Darkness. Does this particular direction make sense, though?

I have to admit that there is definitely a “Jump the Shark” aspect to God having a sister. Please enlighten me if I’m wrong, but I don’t know of any mythology, lore, legends or stories in any culture that have previously hinted at this idea – not for THIS God. The Judeo/Christian God, on whose traditions Supernatural is based, does not have a sister. The Show has explored the story of Cain and Abel; the archangels of Michael, Raphael and Gabriel; Lucifer’s betrayal and banishment; Heaven and Hell; prophets, the apocalypse and a dozen other stories that all have their basis in Judaism and Christianity.

Has Supernatural stretched catechism? Absolutely. Cain had altruistic motivations and was manipulated by Lucifer. The Mark of Cain is not only a curse, it is a key. Has it strayed into the sacrilegious? Probably. Angels are mindless bureaucratic “dicks” to be feared, God is a “deadbeat” dad. Has it fabricated new tenets to meet its needs? Of course. Angel and Demon Tablets, and the Horsemen’s rings as the key to the “cage” to name just two. That’s why it is fantasy entertainment. So if we’ve already bought into the apocalypse having been averted by one man’s sacrifice, are we ready to buy into God having a sister?  IF it is explained further, logically, thoughtfully, with enough backstory to make it plausible in the realm of the imagination, then yes, I think we can all buy into it. As Balthazar said, “In for a penny, in for a pound.”  It MUST be treated seriously, though. If done wrong, it could turn into another Leviathan disaster, taking a great idea and making it comical, if not insulting, in an instant. As it stands now, I’m uncomfortable with the concept. It’s a huge risk, and brings God himself into play. He has been the one elusive, all powerful entity that has remained on a different plane from the Winchesters.  I like it that way. It keeps the story believable … and comfortably away from really serious religious taboos. Still, it is exciting. Where are they going to go this?

Is this solution consistent within the show’s mythology? Death said that the Darkness predated God. Well, I suppose the Darkness could be an older sister. There could even be a story that the Goddess came to this universe before God visited this corner of existence.  They’ve started a whole new myth arc here. We are at “stone one” of a whole new path so canon consistency isn’t a big problem!
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We’ve also speculated that the Darkness and Amara seem to be two separate entities. Metatron said that God betrayed “The Darkness…his sister”, so that’s decisive. When asked about Amara’s location, Dean answered “God’s freaking sister”, so Amara is also identified as God’s sister. Are we back to them being one person? In 11.05 “Thin Lizzie”, Amara was repeatedly referred to as a goddess, yet in 11.03 "The Bad Seed", the Darkness in the mirror and Young Amara had a conversation that we haven’t yet addressed:

Grown Darkness: You look confused. Troubled.
Young Amara: God did all of this after he locked me away. I didn't know it was so much.
Grown Darkness: All for his own ego. And no matter what he made, that doesn't excuse what he did to us.
Young Amara: I know.
Grown Darkness: Amara... You must stay fixed on our purpose. Even we cannot undo what's already done. But as you grow and become stronger, your true destiny will become clear to you. I am what you are becoming. And we are mightier than God.

God locked away Amara but clearly it was the Darkness that emerged from the ground. Is Amara the Darkness? Can Amara look into her own future? Can she have conversations with her elder self through visions? That would be consistent with the theme of Sam and Dean both having visions.

There are clearly references to two individuals here, though: What God did to us; our purpose; I Am what you are becoming...How can Amara be the Darkness yet be a separate entity from the Darkness?

Given the deeply religious themes of season 11, I think we should introduce a theory that I’ve been considering but hesitant to raise – the concept of the Divine Trinity. In Catholicism for example, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit are three parts of one entity. God sent his son to the Earth to be born of a human mother. The baby Jesus grew up on Earth, gradually coming into a deeper understanding of his destiny. He lived and died as a human.  While on earth, the son referred and prayed to the Father as a separate person yet they are considered one. If the Darkness is God’s sister, then might her story parallel that of God the Father? She would also be able to split herself into multiple entities. The “mother” sends the “daughter” to be born of human parents, grow up on Earth, gaining in wisdom and understanding of her true destiny. That would mean that while they are separate now, the Darkness and Amara are one deity. This theory would parallel the heavenly beings of Castiel and Metatron coming to Earth and becoming human for a time. It would also explain the separate references to Amara as “she” and the Darkness as “it” (11.05), plus the unmistakable focus on the death of unfit mothers (see Threads 11.05). The mom theme should not be ignored solely because the Darkness has been identified as a sister. Who, then, is the mother that is clearly being foreshadowed? Maybe the Darkness is both a sister and a mother?  

In last week’s Threads article, I highlighted that Dean has made some confusing, derogatory comments about working with family. SPNLit offered a very insightful theory:
I think Amara is about the destruction of Family. She had Jenna kill her grandmother. The parents of the baby she became where both killed/died. Young Amara had an interest in poor Lizzie who killed her parents and then Sydney the babysitter kills the inn keeper's mother and the boy’s parents because she thought they did not treat him well. Like Amara, she said she could do a better job caring for him. Amara thinks God did a bad job and she as Mother Goddess will be an improvement.

Is Earth and all of humanity about to get caught in another family feud? Dean challenged Gabriel to stand up to his family, and Lucifer and Michael’s big showdown was a prize match between two brothers. Is Supernatural taking it up a notch? Rather than a fight between siblings and children over Daddy’s will, are we about to witness the older generation’s epic fight – between God and his sister (and his sister’s family) over who can rule 'our little world'?

The overt references to family continued in this episode.

Metatron: Daddy’s gotta eat.

Demon Assassin: “Daddy put his foot down”

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(could this be Crowley's bitch face?)

Crowley playing the father figure, grounded Amara and read about parenting teens. His conversations with Amara were that of a father and his teenaged daughter:
Amara: I’m a growing girl
Crowley: Your strong, but you need to remember, I’m stronger.

Crowley also said later “What can I say, Fatherhood changes a man”

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Even Castiel’s episode of Jenny Jones was about parenting.

TV announcer: “We did a DNA test”,
then Cas reiterated “She’s just about to announce the paternity results.
TV: “You’re the father!”..
Then again, Jenny on TV: “He is not ready to be a father

Who’s not ready to be a father? Which man was changed by fatherhood? Crowley’s long confession about his first attempt at fatherhood may hold a clue:
You have tremendous power, and soon you'll have even more. But I have something you lack... Wisdom, experience. I helped put Lucifer back in his cage. I rose through the ranks of Hell, defeated all comers, to claim the throne. And, a few minor setbacks aside, I'm still here. I don't know how to impart what I've learned to you, how to teach you. And at the rate that you're growing, I'll probably never get the chance to figure it out.

Who helped put Lucifer back in his cage? God put Lucifer in the cage the first time, but Crowley, Castiel, Sam…and Dean helped put Lucifer in his cage the second time. Dean also “rose through the ranks of Hell” and can accurately claim “a few minor setbacks aside, I’m still here”.

04

Is Crowley’s fathering speech foreshadowing that Dean is Amara’s real father? Did Dean and the Darkness “bond” in that swirling cloud? Is that the part of the vision Dean has blotted out of his mind? These fragments seem to point in this direction. Both young and old Darkness/Amara have constantly been trying to seduce Dean. The closing song said,

♪ you'll be a woman soon ♪ ♪ please ♪ ♪ come take my hand ♪ ♪ girl ♪ ♪ you'll be a woman soon ♪ ♪ soon ♪ ♪ you'll need a man

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Last week, Amara took away Sydney’s pain by taking her hand. In “Our Little World”, Amara clearly touched Dean. Is she taking away all his pain too?
Amara: Tell me what is happening here. You save me. I save you. You were the first thing I saw when I was freed, and it had been so long. Maybe that's it -- my first experience of his creation. You can't help but represent that for me -- the sweet triumph and the even sweeter folly of what he's wrought. There's no fighting it.

As strong as the implications might be that Dean and the older Darkness may have “touched” and Dean and Amara (young Darkness) have “a thing”, there are two pieces of conflicting evidence. When the demon entered the cell to kill Goldie, he said,
Demon: The boss’ daughter’s been making a mess in town and it’s my job to clean it up.

The boss’ daughter? I really don’t want to even speculate that Amara is the daughter of God… and The Darkness. Incest? I am NOT writing about that in regards to God.  All these references to mothers and fathers are irrefutable, though, so I’m also at a loss to explain Amara first sentence in this episode:
 “I don’t have parents

…unless we’re back to her being one with the Darkness.

The Family Business

A last thought on the demon’s significant, introductory line. Do you remember my speculation that getting back to basics of the family business meant that the boys have to “clean up the messes" they leave undone? I wondered if defeating the Darkness the second time was cleaning up God’s “mess”, then in 11.02 Sam’s prayed that he wasn’t asking God to clean up his mess? Intriguing that the demon specifically used that phrase again in this episode.

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Sam is also very serious about "all the people". He tried to save the lives of four different demons! Is this foreshadowing that he will advocate banishing the Darkness to the Empty rather than killing it in the end?

My head hurts. Let’s look at a few simpler Threads for a moment!

Demon Tablet

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It’s back in the hands of the good guys. Well that was easy. A plot line that ended before it started. Weird actually. We’ll wait to see where that goes.

Sam’s Visions/The Cage

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What an outstanding first look at the cage!

Is there any chance now that it isn’t Lucifer giving Sam visions? Lucifer has always had a connection to Sam. Lucifer was “never able to fool” Sam (11.05). Again, it's almost too obvious. Maybe it's God giving Sam the clues? The evidence is starting to outweight my skepticism.

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 Sam’s visions are so awesome! This is so good!

Soullessness and Psychos

Dean: Only a soulless psycho would kill the family cat.

“Thin Lizzie” continually referenced “psychos” and now here it is again. This episode didn’t offer any new information on soullessness but it did reiterate what we already knew.

Castiel


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Metatron: You are scarred deep. Paralyzed by trauma, by fear.
Castiel: It’s not fear.
Metatron: Who do you have to thank for how angry you are, how lost? You’re welcome.
Castiel: You were right Metatron. I am sick of having my strings pulled which is why I won’t let you manipulate me into letting you off easy.

It was great to get a few moments of insight into Castiel's condition. He couldn't leave the bunker because of painful memories.

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It seemed that it was fear that held him back, yet he told Metatron it wasn't fear. If not fear, what then? He is a fearsome fighter though!

Truth

Metatron: The truth -- ha -- it'd make the Bible thumper'' heads explode.
12

Metatron and Castiel told the truth; Dean and Sam are still avoiding it. They’re not lying exactly. Amara did “overpower” Dean. Maybe she used her feminine charms and her “happiness mojo” to incapacitate him before she pinned him against a wall and threw him across the room but he was overpowered, technically. Still, Sam and Dean are not admitting to themselves or each other what is happening.

Curiosities


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- Something else Metatron said seemed significant: "I’m not that guy anymore. I can’t save you." I don’t know why but I think that’s important.

- I was thrilled that Sam and Dean stayed in the same town where they last saw Amara. Continuity and common sense! Yeah!

- Jerry Wanek confirmed that it was the "Changing Channels" wallpaper in Sam and Dean's hotel room! Did you notice the Captial D room divider?

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- Castiel: "I can" (in the alley)! Castiel makes the best entrances in the series!

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- The mystery of Crowley's Hell on Earth solved! Thank you Robert Berens!


I have loved all six episodes this season. They have been absolutely stellar. Season 11 has been filled with amazing writing. Peeking ahead at spoiler episode titles, the continuity and the intense, rapid fire mythology development is going to continue. Bring it on!

What did you think of this episode, and what are your theories on Amara, Dean, Sam and the Darkness?




Star Wars quote courtesy of: http://www.moviefanatic.com/quotes/you-cannot-hide-forever-luke-i-will-not-fight-you-give-yourself/
Transcript quotes courtesy of: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org
and www.superwiki.com
Screencaps courtesy of http://supernaturalfansonline.com/

Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-11-13 21:59
Thank you Nightsky....now my head hurts. I need to read your review again. The episode, this season, the show has me spinning. I can't see where it is all going because we are being given so much information it's hard to sort it all out. And I mean that in a very positive way. Every episode has me hungry for the next one. To see if we get more clues or if we get more layers piled on.
I am with you these first 6 episodes have been great. One of the best starts to a season since S6.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 09:20
Quote:
we are being given so much information it's hard to sort it all out.
You're not kidding! I had 1 day to think about it all and write this! I felt like I was in a 12 hour ACT (college entrance) exam:
Is it option A or C?
All options are correct, but which is the MOST accurate?
Is it 50% of both A and B, or more A than B?
All of the above?
None of the above?
Followed by a massive essay exam: "Write out your theory on the above in 4000 words or less."
I'm actually looking forward to a MoTW episode this week!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-11-18 19:51
Agreed! Good analogy. This season is great! :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-13 22:26
So rambling musingss here. I'm thinking The Darkness manifested on earth as human because that is the only way she can experience God's creation and interact on our mortal plane. As she continues to grow she learns more and more about mankind, the good, the bad, the feelings, emotions...ever ything adult Amara is lacking. (I think this will ultimately somehow be her weakness). In the meantime adult Amara is waiting. Eventually I think that adult Amaras plan is to bond with young Amara once she reaches the same age and has grown in strength at which point she will then join with Dean in a non sexy but DarkCharlie/Goo dCharlie way and then confront God and company. But we know how Dean feels about being anybody's condom. ;)

I do not think Dean is Amaras father, nor do I think Dean is God on Earth. So then what about God and Amara? God is Light as Amara is Darkness. Moral vs amoral. The Yin and Yang. The Feng Shui of the universe. Maybe? Who knows. Maybe they will come up with some strange storyline like Amara came up with the blueprint for Creation and God stole it. Or they both came up with the idea in their garage one hot summer day and couldn't agree on the details. Amara wanted free will and an amoral way of being and God wanted to tweak it by using morality and free will instead. Big fight. No more family dinners. Christmas became particularly tense... ;) I see so many people buying into this whole God is bad, Amara good but I'm not quite there myself. We've heard some about both sides from others but nothing from the key players themselves, and you know they are each going to have their versions of what happened. But really this is why I hope they don't go to this extent. I mean where do you go storywise after this? How do you top God? Where would we begin Season Twelve? The Winchesters with God riding backseat saving people and hunting things?
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-14 15:26
hey alycat...I think I agree. I definitely don't think Dean is Amara's father. The logistics just aren't there. Mike told Sam and Dean that his wife had just given birth and then died. He was holding his little girl. He had gone on about his wife bleeding I think and then he talked about how the hospital was under attack and he took his little girl and hid. So if we look at the timeline, that baby was inside of Mike's wife for 9 months and given she wasn't a premature baby, 7-8 months at the very least. Dean was in the saloon not cutting off Sam's head most likely during the time Mike's wife had started to go into labor. Take into consideration the time it takes to give birth...and then Rowena removing the curse....the mark would've had to go somewhere. The D which it seems is connected to the Mark, as she corrupted it in the first place when luci had it, the D goes where the mark is. So the D enters this child born at the time of her release because this unfortunate little girl happens to be the lucky one who received the mark. I'm going to chock that one up to bad timing on her part. All the while this is happening Sam and Dean are still at the saloon, just leaving actually. The Darkness is released while Dean is in the saloon, the baby is already being born at the hospital at this time...and the D once released follows the mark to this child. Dean hasn't even met Amara at this point.

I was thinking perhaps God had a hand in where the mark ended up. The mark ended up on an infant...perhap s that was to give the boys the time they needed before Amara became a full on powerful adult. If the D is bound to the mark, and God ensures the mark lands on an infant....then the D will go where the mark is. Now the D isn't at her most powerful. She's just a baby. This gives Sam and Dean time to find a way to fight her. I still think it's plausible that the Darkness was not protecting dean in that field....I think it's just as plausible that when the mark was removed, and dean was the first person she saw, the one who freed her, she was possibly targeting him. The darkness that was surrounding Dean and Sam for that matter seemed to be at bay....a force field surrounded Sam in the car and dean after someone hit sam and took dean from the car...then you see amara in adult form telling dean they are bonded and he would protect her and she him....but what if that was a lie? why are we believing her? we know nothing about her....it's just as likely that the D was targeting Dean which is why she took him from the car and knocked out Sam...But then God intervened and protected the boys...She couldn't get to dean the way she wanted to....the Darkness was locked out...so being connected to the mark...and dean having the mark...the D was able to appear to Dean in a vision...tellin g him a bunch of crap to manipulate him into believing she was trying to protect him, when in reality she was trying to claim him. She can overpower him because of her connection to the mark he bore. She couldn't get to the boys...the darkness never made it through that force field, so she went to the town where the infant who did receive the mark was born. I think it makes much more sense that the D entered this child that she was drawn to.

The song they played ...you'll be a woman soon.....the part they played was the chorus...and the focus was on amara herself. it's not like it went back and for cutting from amara to dean. the song was what it was...amara is going to be a woman soon....and when that happens she will be powerful enough to put whatever plan she has cooked up in motion.

I honestly never thought God as bad and Amara as good. I never even thought God was that far off. I've often thought God had a hand in helping the boys many times.....here' s the thing....in the day there is light...in the night there is darkness...ther e is calm....so to me, God found a way to balance out the world. In the world there is good, light....there is evil...darkness ...again there exists balance. If God locked Amara away, I'm leaning towards perhaps maybe she wasn't so much for balance as she wanted the world her way....I don't know...i'm speculating there....But I don't think Amara is the victim here...and I certainly don't think her way is good for anyone.....;)
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 09:27
Quote:
God had a hand in where the mark ended up. The mark ended up on an infant...perhaps that was to give the boys the time they needed before Amara became a full on powerful adult.
Very interesting thought. That would be consistent with someone (was it Castiel?) reminding them that God has helped them more than they know.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 09:07
Quote:
God is Light as Amara is Darkness. Moral vs amoral.
I've been thinking about the Good Side/Dark Side mythology of Charlie...and the Wizard. The Wizard had immense powers and ruled over his world. What if he was the parallel foreshadowing of this story line? God is the Good Side and Amara is the Dark Side of the Universe, or Amara is the Dark Side of God's soul. That is how he is so purely "Good". I speculated on this months ago but it is starting to be a real possibility. I always thought it was odd that they used the specific word "Dark" to describe the ruthless side of the soul. Then the ancient amoral force was the "Darkness". Too coincidental to not be connected.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-13 22:29
hey nightsky...

I don't think dean/amara bond is anything that resulted in offspring. I think that amara is the darkness. The darkness's original form might very well be black smoke, or black something. She was trapped by God, and locked away. I pretty much figured that when the mark was removed from dean's arm, she was released from her jail and she could see that it was dean who set her free. He was her first vision. She originally corrupted the mark, he bore the mark..the I think there's that connection. Dean's trance like state when with Amara was exactly the same as when he held the first blade. I don't even know that he was hearing anything she was saying. The way I see it, when the Darkness was released, she had no form, so she entered the first child born at the moment of her release. Dean saw a vision of her future self, she took a form that would be pleasing, that he could understand. He can't really interact with whatever form she is....remember in dark side of the moon, when Zach told dean what he looked like in heaven...even when they were in heaven, dean and sam saw Zach's human form...Zach said it was because humans were simple and we wouldn't be able to see them in their real visage...it's why they take vessels in the first place. it's why pam's eyes were burned out. If chuck is God, then God also took the form we could comprehend and understand. A human form. Otherwise the sight of God would likely kill someone...I think that would be the same for the D as it is for every other supernatural cosmic entity we've come across...So the D in her smoke form entered this random baby that happened to unfortunately be born the moment the D was freed. We don't know that the D intentionally killed the mother...I kind of felt like that was collateral damage. The baby's father died. The baby though may very well had a connection with Dean simply because the D saw him and remembered him and in essence he was responsible for setting her free. Dean bore the mark she now bears. Dean gave her the key that locked her away so now there's no stopping her. Even though the curse released him of the mark and her release is shared by sam, dean, cas, Crowley and Rowena....Dean was the one who got the moc from cain in the first place. He wore the very mark she corrupted in the first place...so she's bonded to him in that way. She most likely chose him to be her protector and her power and her connection to the mark and it's bearer, possibly even it's former bearer is strong enough to enable her to overpower him. I still think it's just as likely that if Cain's story was Dean's story then the D would've been bonded to him. the Unluck of the draw...I also think she's fascinated by the very notion that dean is a human...God's folly...God's creation...God' s creation who set her free...so there's that....I still feel like her bond with dean is similar to the way Lucifer felt bonded to sam.
So no, I don't think for a second that Dean is the baby daddy to amara....I really don't see a rehash of the slice girls....;) I also think it's possible that she's bonded to dean because of the way he feels towards God. the question was raised why would amara need protection from dean? after all she can pretty much take care of herself...who does she possibly fear? perhaps, since he locked her away before, she fears God. Now if the D can sense in dean his negative attitude towards God...well I think then she plans to use that to her advantage.

I still don't think it's luci sending Sam visions. While it's true that John said to sam he can never fool him...he also stated that what he and dean were talking about, he wanted that for them too. Sam had just had that talk with dean in the car....when he was asking dean if he wanted more....then dean told sam to get some sleep and then sam had the vision. I just don't think that luci and Michael are able to eavesdrop on the boy's conversations. I still think Sam's visions are coming from someone else who is trying to lead the boys to the cage....as I do agree that either Lucifer or Michael or both may be able to help. God would know this and so would any other angel working on God's behalf....even Gabriel would know, as he is an archangel, he fought the battle against the darkness and he would fear her recognizing him so it would make sense that he would help the boys incognito....so as not to be recognized. So what if sam finds out...well sam would tell dean ....and the darkness who seems to be bonded with dean might be able to get that information from him...without him even having to open his mouth...who knows?:D

you're not the only one who heard james earl jones while watching that ep...I noted it in my article I wrote for SOD..:D You know I've gone on and on about how I believe that everything that's happened to sam and dean has, good and bad, has happened for a reason. I had said that as horrible as it was, that dean becoming a demon was necessary....th at he had to fight and believe in his own goodness, to beat his own darkness, so that he can beat the Darkness. I've written how I believe that God mandated Sam and dean be born for this very purpose. That every test these boys have been given, they've passed. That God's children failed him. Cain and Abel failed him. Now we learn that God has a dysfunctional relationship of his own. He has a sister that he locked away and perhaps although necessary, it still weighed on him. Once Lucifer betrayed him God knew that there was always that chance that she would be released. Lucifer transferred the mark to cain...even though cain killed abel, God decreed he couldn't be touched...if he died, the darkness would be released... Once the mark was put on a human....God knew it was a matter of time...that's why he created Sam and dean Winchester...th at's why they have been tested over and over and over...and every time they choose free will, they choose ea. other, they choose family...these boys are just as dysfunctional a family as apparently God and his sister were...his angels....and most humans...but as dysfunctional as they are...their bond is unbreakable.... they always again and again choose ea. other...choose family...Could sam and dean be God's way of redeeming himself? Sam and dean are proof that what God may have always wanted from his own family...can exist. it does exist. God found a way to fight the darkness again, because he knew once Lucifer betrayed him that her release would only be a matter of time....so everything the boys have been through...all the tests they took and passed.....was readying them for the battle God knew they would fight and win. Sam and dean are God's soldiers, isn't that how they were ensured to be raised?

I don't think amara's hold on dean is as strong as she thinks...sam broke through the trance much like he did when dean held the blade. Sam is dean's touchstone. Sam is dean's light. Sam is the one who believes in God. This is important. If one of the reason's Amara chose dean is partly because of his negative attitude towards God, then it's up to Sam to change that. Sam once told dean that he saw a light at the end of the tunnel....he wanted to take him there....maybe that was metaphorical... .maybe and I could be reading into it a bit much...but maybe the light sam needs to show dean has more to do changing Dean's negative attitude towards God. john said...god helps those who help themselves...ma ybe sam needs to help dean get his faith back in order to be able to break the connection from amara;);

sam =light
demondean/moc dean =dark
amara =dark
god=light
cured dean who still has negative feelings towards God = dim
sam's faith guiding dean to have faith=light
sam+dean= kicking darkness' ass all the way back to the empty. :D

wonder though..now that the bromance is over...and the whole idea of dysfunctional family is the theme of the decade....kind of wonder if Crowley will want to reconcile with his mom? after all, the darkness can kick his ass...but him and Rowena?

I do get the feeling Crowley will be forced once again to team up with the Winchesters if he doesn't want to get himself dead.

really loving this season..so can't wait to see how it actually plays out. :D
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 09:53
Quote:
Dean's trance like state when with Amara was exactly the same as when he held the first blade.
Interesting observation!

Quote:
Could sam and dean be God's way of redeeming himself? Sam and dean are proof that what God may have always wanted from his own family...can exist. it does exist. God found a way to fight the darkness again, because he knew once Lucifer betrayed him that her release would only be a matter of time....so everything the boys have been through...all the tests they took and passed.....was readying them for the battle God knew they would fight and win. Sam and dean are God's soldiers, isn't that how they were ensured to be raised?
A few weeks ago I wrote for TV Fanatic that Lucifer was too obvious a choice for Sam's visions. I felt it was a purposeful misdirect. I forgot that conviction in the emotional tidal wave of "Our Little World". You've reminded me of it again. Sam got his first vision after praying, but both God and angels can hear prayers. If it is Lucifer, he can now use his bond with Sam to communication because, freed of the Mark, he is back to being good and his combined will with Michael give them the power to reach Sam. If it is God, he is telling Sam that the answer is in the cage. I like the possibility of God better, but having it be the archangels would be fabulous for Castiel! He could unite with his brothers again in battle. I love that angle! He may even get a promotion out of it and become an archangel in the end of the series. All of Heaven reunited and healed because of the Winchesters!

Quote:
Sam once told dean that he saw a light at the end of the tunnel....he wanted to take him there....maybe that was metaphorical....maybe and I could be reading into it a bit much...but maybe the light sam needs to show dean has more to do changing Dean's negative attitude towards God. john said...god helps those who help themselves...maybe sam needs to help dean get his faith back in order to be able to break the connection from amara
LOVE THIS!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-18 22:46
hey nightsky,

I'm having a problem with the whole Luci sending sam visions. I don't see the logic in it no matter how hard I try.

Firstly, in order for the Natural Order to be balanced...ther e will always be evil, for without evil, there would be no good. I know show puts it's own spin on stuff but I really don't think spn will go there....trying to redeem Satan....especi ally given how the theme of the Natural order has been adhered to and is quite the common theme. There will never be peace on earth...that's why Heaven exists...even on spn...humans in heaven are living in their own private paradise.

Why would luci even care that the D is free? I would think luci would be having a field day at the very notion that the d was released by humans....the very ones luci has been banished for because he wouldn't put them above God. Winchesters no less...luci and Michaels very own vessels responsible possibly bringing on the end....the very thing they stopped luci and Michael from doing....I would think luci is doing the happy dance in the cage at this notion.

And I just can't buy into the whole mark thing. Lucifer had the mark and gave it to Cain...and what he still retained the mark as well? if that's the case, then how is the darkness able to escape? If the mark is technically still on Lucifer...then the removal from dean wouldn't matter....cuz the mark is still on Lucifer, the original holder, who is not dead. The D should never have been able to be released if Luci still bore the mark along with Cain.

and if it's like I think it went down....then luci gave the mark to cain....and nothing remained on luci...which is why cain was decreed by God not to be killed when he slew Abel....because he was now the holder of the mark...lock/key that held the D....Cain became the Warden. Given that Luci no longer bore the mark....I don't think his further corruption had anything to do with residual affects....Dean no longer bears the mark, and sans this hold amara seems to have over him in her presence....wit hout the mark, dean is pretty much back to his normal self. he's not still corrupt. he's not committing acts of evil. he's dean. I think Gabriel said it best...luci was God's favorite until the new baby came home.

And how come all of a sudden luci can send visions to sam...what does the D being released have anything to do with that? and I really don't see how he can be unburdened by the mark, cuz I don't think he's had it since he gave it to cain. and since when can luci or Michael eavesdrop on the boys conversations? If that were possible wouldn't it have happened at least once in the 6 spn years that they've been down there?

Do you think it could be Crowley?

I was watching the devil you know....and Crowley had that little coin he put in Baby that not only let him know where they were, but he could hear what they were talking about? Crowley is the son a witch and he does know spells....do you think it's possible for Crowley to use a spell? Maybe Crowley is one step ahead of everyone else...maybe he's the one leading the boys to the cage?

probably not...but I can wrap my head around that idea more than I can luci....unless it's Michael.....eve n him I can wrap my head around more than I can luci...

secretly...i'm still hoping for Gabriel....:D:


if it ends up being luci...I really hope show comes up with an explainer on how that can be...starting with how the hell luci managed to find a meat suit, given that he was in sam when he jumped in the pit.....and his original vessel was rotting on the floor somewhere in Detroit. :P
Jen
# Jen 2015-11-13 22:35
Enjoyed the read Nightsky although more questions then answers. All you lovely ladies have one common thought going Family.
Even though Amara said she has no parents, I feel she just said that because everybody always asked her she was out late/young on her own obviouisly people were going to ask her that, so that was a quick and easy answer Their is two things I'm going to hold onto here both of which I have believed in from the get go

1) Its Michael in the cage calling out to Sam, god would be to ashamed to be trying to right a ancient wrong. He may appear in the end to help get rid of his sister, but he caused all this so why help. Let someone else clean up the mess. He would have alot of explaining to do
2) I believe Amara is Dean's daughter thats the connection - Dean has little to no faith in god and dislikes the fact that since the apocalypse god has shown no interest or offered any help to man kind
This would be the perfect ally for a sister who was so very badly scorned

Michael, Gabriel,Lucifer , and the other Arc Angels Amara would be their Auntie wouldn't she ?? The family web does thicken LOL
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-13 23:16
Nightsky, I thought that when the demon referred to Amara as the "boss's daughter" he meant Crowley was the boss. Because Crowley is the boss of the demons and he has been treating Amara as his daughter, in a way.

Also, it had occurred to me at one time that Dean is Amara's father (though I'm not sure how that would have happened) but it would actually be disappointing and kind of silly if that were the case. I think she is fascinated for the reasons she stated, and because it was Dean, a representative of God's "folly," who was partly responsible for her release. I also think that maybe she is responding to Dean's negative feelings towards God (as sugarhi suggested) as well as to Dean's strong feelings about family. Though Dean has felt betrayed by Sam on several occasions, and so many horrible things have transpired between the brothers, nothing has succeeded in breaking the bond between them. Everyone else Amara has been drawn to (except Len) has felt abused/betrayed by family members, but family has always been the most important thing to Dean. So I hope that Amara's fascination with Dean derives more from these factors than from any parental relationship. To the extent that the connection between them stems from the fact that he had borne the MOC, that might be the reason that Sam's visions are steering him toward the cage. Originally I assumed that it was because the archangels could provide valuable information about how they had defeated the D, but maybe Sam is being drawn to the cage because Lucifer knows first hand about the effect of the MOC on the bearer. So maybe he too had felt a connection to the D and can provide information about how that connection can be resisted or broken.

I agree with you that the show has to be very careful about how it handles the idea that Amara is God's sister. It would be so easy for it to end up seeming silly or campy. And it is difficult to imagine how they can defeat the D without God's help, which does seem like a series-ending plot. I agree with Alycat that, if God really does come into play this season, it's hard to envision where the show would go from there. But the writing and plotting have been so fantastic this season that I think maybe they can pull this off. I just can't wait to see how the story unfolds. I have heard so many theories about all of these topics, and I actually love the way the show is tantalizing us with little clues, as well as the occasional bombshell. The prospect of revisiting the archangels in the cage is IMO the most exciting story tackled by the show in many years. I'm already dreading the winter hiatus because I hate the thought of going that long without an episode. It just amazes me that the show has bounced back so strongly from what I considered the 2 weakest seasons by far. It's exciting as hell (literally!). Like you, I say Bring It On!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-13 23:48
Speaking of interesting theories S&D, you definitely proposed one in the idea that Lucifer may be trying to reach out not just because he may be able to tell how they originally defeated The Darkness but also because of his knowledge of the full extent of the MOC on it's bearer - this may provide some valuable insight into the bond between Dean and Amara and how Sam might be able to help him fight it cause you know that grip on him is only going to grow tighter.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-14 19:15
Bear in mind Alycat that most of my theories have been proven wrong. But even a stopped watch is right twice a day! Maybe this is one of those times
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 10:03
Quote:
I thought that when the demon referred to Amara as the "boss's daughter" he meant Crowley was the boss.
That is absolutely what the demon meant. That is the correct, literal meaning of his words. I was looking at a possible underlying implication to his words. So much of what is said is figurative and has a double meaning.

Quote:
maybe Sam is being drawn to the cage because Lucifer knows first hand about the effect of the MOC on the bearer.
Maybe, being a "good" archangel again, Lucifer is volunteering to take back the Mark and hold the key to the Darkness' prison once again? That is a self-sacrificin g thing God's favorite angel might do.
Kate
# Kate 2015-11-14 00:07
Nice read! Love, love, love this season. It's Michael calling out to Sam! I'm so sure. Plus, I think Lucifer and Amara were a thing. Got locked away, forced Lucifer with the key, who forced it on Cain. Making the first murder that of a sibling, destroying what God created. It supposedly made him leave according to what metatron said to Gadreel. Amara and God being siblings. Cain and Abel =siblings. Michael and Lucifer =brothers, Sam and Dean =brothers. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-14 09:09
Kate, I don't believe that Amara and Lucy were a thing in the romantic sense (if that's what you meant) but I love the rest of your theory because it makes a lot of sense. Death did say that the MOC corrupted Lucifer, presumably because of the influence of the D. But it always seemed odd to me that Lucifer's first evil act was to induce Cain to murder Abel. Why not just continue trying to corrupt Abel? Or simply murder the hated humans himself? But it makes perfect sense, because in her anger at God's betrayal of her, Amara is seeking to replicate that same type of betrayal among all of God's beloved creations, just to hurt him. So she prevails upon Lucy to convince Cain to slaughter his brother, because truly that was a betrayal by Cain. He lacked faith in his brother's ability to resist Lucy so he agrees to murder him?! Amara's first victory is to inspire fratricide by God's most beloved, and heretofore perfect, creations. But simultaneously, Amara set in motion the acts that would destroy God's own family and set them at each others throats, because the archangels were now at odds and the end result was Lucy being locked away by his brother just as Amara had been locked away by hers. What wonderful symmetry! So it will be truly fitting if the Winchesters are the ones who break this string of family betrayals by working together as brothers to defeat the D. And that would support the suggestion of sugarhi and some others that the events at the end of BK really were a test by Death to determine if Dean could be convinced to murder Sam. And it fits in with my thoughts that this is part of Amara's fascination with Dean- the strength of the family bond that he feels baffles her, and it would explain her shock when Dean went after her to defend Sam. Sorry, I'm just thinking this through as I type it! Like you, I am just loving this season and all of the exciting possibilities presented by this story.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-14 10:00
Kate and SanD... I like this. Normally, given season 8-10 I would say that the writers were not capable of this level of complexity in their plotting, but this season is making me rethink that. I would REALLY like to know what's changed behind the scenes to bring this all about.... there has obviously been some kind of change or shake up. But, that probably amounts to "dirty laundry" and we'll probably never hear of it. Ah well. I guess I'll just have to enjoy the positive effects of whatever it is that's different back at Chez Supernatural.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-14 16:35
Quote:
Normally, given season 8-10 I would say that the writers were not capable of this level of complexity in their plotting, but this season is making me rethink that.
I agree, E. Assuming that all of us are not completely off the reservation with our theories and observations about what has happened in just the first six eps, this seems like the most intricately plotted season in many years. And the most incredible part is that they are tying in canon from the Kripke era. As far back as S5 we heard that Sam and Dean's lineage went all the way back to Cain and Abel, and that they had been destined to serve as vessels for Michael and Lucifer. Now it seems like all of that ancient history might once again play a fundamental role in this season's arc. I never thought I'd see this attention to canon and previous season's events during JC's tenure, but better late than never. I, too, am curious about the reason for this sea change in the plotting and execution of the season arc.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-11-14 22:07
The only thing that I am aware that's different is Bob Singer's status. Could his taking a step back have created THIS much change? Who's sailing the ship now? Mostly Carver and Dabb? Whatever it is, I love it and it's a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOONG time coming.
Kate
# Kate 2015-11-14 22:14
I agree! So many great chances for the story to really be amazing this year! I also wanna say that I found it funny/odd that Dean still had the voicemails from Crowley. The one he played to get the demon's attention was funny, but I guess I thought that Dean would have erased them, being ashamed of the whole DemonDean thing. I mean, he even said so to Sam back in the Papermoon Episode.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-14 22:48
Maybe now that Crowley tried to kill him Dean will finally erase the voicemails! And thereby erase the last trace of the embarrassing bromance between them! that would check off another item on my SPN wish list.:D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 00:07
I thought that was so cool. What a great use of a voicemail. If you think of it the beginning does sound like Crowley is raising his voice and calling out - it's not obvious what the voicemail is about or to whom he's speaking until the second half (as the demon found out the hard way) so maybe Dean recognized the value of it and kept it in the event the situation ever would arise to use it as a diversionary tactic.. Sam's used recordings as a fake to lure Crowley, for exorcisms... it's apparently a Winchester thing. Very smart. Or he kept it because he isn't quite ready to forget his time as DemonDean. ;)
Kate
# Kate 2015-11-15 00:01
I agree! So many great chances for the story to really be amazing this year! I also wanna say that I found it funny/odd that Dean still had the voicemails from Crowley. The one he played to get the demon's attention was funny, but I guess I thought that Dean would have erased them, being ashamed of the whole DemonDean thing. I mean, he even said so to Sam back in the Papermoon Episode.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 10:12
Quote:
because in her anger at God's betrayal of her, Amara is seeking to replicate that same type of betrayal among all of God's beloved creations
Or Amara is making the humans act out the vengeance she desires: to kill her sibling.
Quote:
Lucy being locked away by his brother just as Amara had been locked away by hers. What wonderful symmetry!
Love your logic!! It makes sense out of the whole MoC history.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-11-18 20:09
Wow, this is brilliant!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-19 21:26
Why thank you! But my idea piggybacked off of the ideas of Kate, and several others, including you. I actually have been very impressed by so many of the theories being proposed. The intelligence and perceptiveness of the WFB community really amazes me.
Jen
# Jen 2015-11-14 02:30
1) Jim Michaels on twitter ------ Actually, tired of answering same question -- This will be the last time I respond to the Adam ? until we get S12
2) Jim Michaels on twitter ---------- This question gets asked a bunch but it has never been on our radar to revisit... Does not fit in with current story

So if they get S12 they may re-introduce Adam/Michael / Michael isn't the one in the cage or is Jim putting one over on us. So we are back to Lucifer who I thought didn't have a meat suit.

OHOHOHHH I just had a major recollection. Human meat suits don't have to be alive to be pocessed by demons its the soul inside that keeps the meat suit alive. Now Lucifer had already asked permission to ride around in Jim Palligrino's meat suit,(does that permmission last forever) so does that mean Lucifer can jump back in it no problems. That wouldn't effect cannon

How exciting I have changed my mine its Lucy calling Sam to the cage I still would like to know how they will get there. Will they wave down a taxi driver to take them to Purgatory -- follow the creek to the back door (Which Sam left open) sneak through Hell to the cage or will they make some deal with Crowely Soooo exciting.
novi
# novi 2015-11-14 02:40
In fact, Osiris and Isis in Egyptian mythology were siblings; so were Japanese Izanagi and Izanami. I think there are more. What happened between Amara and Dean could be imprinting, them now sharing the part of each other. To me, the whole thing looks less like Star Wars, and more along the line, "One cannot live when the other dies".
Jen
# Jen 2015-11-14 03:33
Ohh Novi don't say that we won't have a season 12. Unless thats the way its heading sob sob :(:(:(:(
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 10:16
I am absolutely convinced there will be a 12. The JS are loving this season. They'll sign on for more of this!
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-11-18 20:12
I hope you are right!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-11-14 03:53
Quote:
Crowley, Castiel, Sam…and Dean helped put Lucifer in his cage the second time.
Sam put Lucifer in the cage ,others helped.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 10:17
Absolute agree. I should have worded that sentence better.
novi
# novi 2015-11-14 04:36
Calm down Jen, and let's hope for the better. ;) After all, God and his sister can still make it up. Like AliCat22 said, looks like the Supreme Divine force of the universe is twofold as Yin and Yang, and maybe they shouldn't have been separated from the start. Though Amara seems a ruthless kid, I'm still inclined to see Darkness as it was given in Ursula LeGuin's novel - it frees, hides and protects the week. "Praise then darkness and Creation unfinished". Yin can definitely add something good to the current situation in the world.
vOlty
# vOlty 2015-11-14 09:55
With respect to the final scene, when Sam sees the cage, is it me or one of the "screams" actually sounds like the word "Dean"? If so, that could be a huuuge hint at what's coming next. Anyone else heard it?
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 10:18
Sorry I didn't hear "Dean" but I will relisten for it for sure!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-11-14 11:56
Congrats, Nightsky... you were definitely on the right track with earlier Threads articles. God having a sister is a big reveal, and count me as still on the fence about this. Like you said, if not handled properly this could turn in to a laughable "jump the shark" moment for the show, and depending on one's POV, they could be heading into campy or sensitive terrain.

Amara is exerting some level of control over Dean; not sure if it's enough for him to ultimately take up sides with her against Sam and/or the archangels and/or God. Based upon his reaction when questioned by Castiel and Sam, he's freaked out by it and Castiel and Sam know it. We know very little about Amara; we know God locked her up and sacrificed her for the sake of his creation. But, there may or may not have been a good reason for doing this - we just don't know yet. In keeping with the show's tradition, whoever turns out to be the good guy/girl or bad guy/girl isn't going to be clear cut.

Sam's visions; I maintain that, if Lucifer had been able to send visions to Sam, he would have been messing with him ever since Death retrieved Sam's soul from the cage. I do think that God has a hand in this and is either responsible for the visions, or facilitating Lucifer or Michael's ability to send Sam visions. Given what not-real John Winchester told Sam in that vision, about never being able to fool Sam, that would point at Lucifer. Or, if you buy in to the possibility of Gabriel still being alive (and I don't), it could be Gabriel. I can't see Michael as being responsible for the visions; he never really interacted with Sam so the "not being able to fool you" makes no sense.... UNLESS he is warning Sam about Amara's "control" over Dean. After all, Dean was Michael's true vessel.

Lucifer - won't delve in to whether Lucifer still had the Mark and Rowena's spell removed the Mark from Dean AND Lucifer. That could explain the commotion in the cage, but there are other plausible explanations for that. There's canon that supports both interprerations (the fact that Lucifer still had the Mark, and that he didn't). But... since Lucifer is intimately familiar with the affects of the Mark, will he also have some connection to Amara, or are we going to see some sort of redemption arc for Lucifer?

Castiel's story/arc got a little more interesting this week; if I didn't know any better, it's almost as though he's developing a very non-angelic trait, a conscious. Metatron was a pathetic excuse for an angel and it turns out he's a pathetic excuse for a human being. That being said, he's a much more interesting character in the hands of the right writer.

Wasn't so sure about Crowley this episode; everyone knew he wouldn't be able to maintain any level of control or curry favor with Amara, so he must have known as well. What I wasn't sure about was whether Crowley threatened to kill Dean in order to test the bond between Amara and Dean... that would have been a risky thing to do, unless Crowley knew more than what he was letting on. And, let's face it, Crowley is usually a few steps ahead of everyone else.

So many questions, which is an amazing thing for a show in it's 11th season. Fingers crossed they can keep up the momentum.
Jen
# Jen 2015-11-14 17:33
I read and re-read everybodys wonderful theories and comments and think I try so hard to come up with something equally as good - now I have come up with another thought for you Ladies, a new idea for you to think about and maybe de-bunk or hopefully set your brain cogs spinning. You all are so good at that LOL

Back in S8Ep6 Blade Runner, as Dean recieved the Mark from Cain, Cain said "With the Mark comes a great responsiability " Dean cut him off and that statement was never finished. And I don't think that was ever elaborated on. Cain also said that the mark was no good without the blade, NOW here is my thought WHAT if Amara was locked away within the BLADE. My reasoning --------------

Dean had the MOC for many weeks before he got the blade he was fine Just a hunter with a mark on his arm. Once that blade was placed in his hand, the mark was triggered and Dean's downhill spiral began
The Mark is a Lock & Key , the Mark on its own without coming into contact with the Blade or being triggered by the blade appeared harmless. Everybody Lucifer/Cain and Dean carried the mark but also wielded the blade, The blade is evil it represents death/destruction/darkness.

Now why would a piece of bone light up the mark and change the carrier into a sadistic killer. because within it was The Darkness (Amara) I always wondered why the Mark lit up so drastically when Dean held the blade, I also wondered why Dean needed to be so close to the blade, and why he always zoned out and only Sam could reach him. These appear to be the same charactaristics Dean is showing around Amara, and again it is only Sam who can break this trance like state. What if Cain knew god's sister was locked away in the blade and that the mark was a lock & key and this was "the great responsibilty" he was talking about. This would give a very clear reason as to this bond Dean has with Amara. Dean always seemed more bonded to the Blade then the mark. Once the mark was removed the blade shattered and the darkness was released. We don't know what happened to the blade except that Cas hid it safely somewhere. So thats my theory Heheee Have fun Ladies and Russ xxoo

And what if the only way to get rid of her now is as Billie said The Empty
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 10:52
Congratulations ! You managed to come up with a new piece of the puzzle! Here is Cain's quote:
Quote:
But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
I hadn't thought that maybe the "great burden" was holding the key to the prison. Excellent closure to an old question
novi
# novi 2015-11-15 03:19
Why, that's a brilliant idea, Jen! Crazy, but in a good way. Where does Cas hide the Blade? Hope, not inside his body. Under the mattress then? ;)Now he's having an impressive collection of valuables - the Blade, the Tablet... What's more important, whose bone it is, and how it could be destyed? Can the Blade kill Amara? Or God, Him forbid?
Jen
# Jen 2015-11-15 04:11
Hey Thanks Novi We never did find out where Cas hid the blade. Maybe he gave it back to god or to keep it really safe With the bed bugs in Metatron's matress LOL

Thanks to Wikia -- I remember this well (Donkey) my names Jenny and a female donkey is a Jenny Ass terrible hey get teased often :D:D:D:D:D:D

The First Blade is a jawbone of a donkey that is connected to the Mark of Cain. The blade somehow strengthens the Mark, and when held by the bearer of the Mark, is able to kill any known being. It is also the only known weapon that could kill Knights of Hell. It is so powerful that Crowley once called it, "the most dangerous weapon on the planet." It is dangerous enough to cause fear in even angels, which the blade can also kill.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/supernatural/images/6/6a/DeanMarkofCain.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20140602012704
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 05:31
Without the MOC the First Blade is nothing. To quote Dean: '...cause without this mark on my arm that Blades nothing but a hunk of bone with teeth.' The only way it becomes a powerful weapon is when wielded by a bearer of the MOC. Who knows what might happen If Amara got hold of it. I'm thinking she is so powerful that having it would be unnecessary. I'm wondering if we will ever see the First Blade again.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-11-15 10:59
Reminds me of something... As I was digging out my pond last year we discovered some farm equipment. Not much, just bits of metal at a lower jawbone that looks like the first blade!
Jen
# Jen 2015-11-15 21:37
Yelloweyes You better tell SPN you found The Blade they might need it back for this season == How dare Cas chuck it in your dam thats littering LOL
novi
# novi 2015-11-15 08:34
In reply to: Jen
Prehistoric donkey? I wish. But if the bone is that one Cain used to kill Abel then it couldn't be .. Or could it? Now I'm dizzy.
nightsky
# nightsky 2015-11-18 10:54
Sorry to take so long to get to your comments! In one week I had two family birthdays, a close family funeral, and a full day competition at a university. I am a *tad* behind schedule!
ScifiSpirit
# ScifiSpirit 2015-11-20 09:45
Hello all! Sorry I'm joining the conversation so late! I've recently joined the site and have been trying to find my way around and join in on discussions. I've read through this one and it's all so fascinating! I thought I'd add my own perspective to the pot and see what sticks! :)

Regarding Sam's visions, I'm not really certain yet whom I believe is sending him the visions. Could be "god" (just possible), or someone else like Lucifer himself, or Michael, or something else is at play that we have yet to be introduced to. Right now, my money is on Lucifer. The way I see it, with God's sister making an appearance, a lot of people have been speculating if God himself will make an appearance. I know many people believe Chuck is God (and so he would have already made plenty of appearances on the show, but, dare I say, I'm not one of those people). If Chuck is God, then I will accept it and so be it, but I have other theories about that. Regardless, from a writing perspective, I'm wondering if TPTB don't want God himself to make an appearance just yet or, perhaps, ever. If that is the case, what I've come up with is Lucifer/Michael .

What if Michael, being God's first born and most powerful Archangel is the *only* one strong enough to fight The Darkness. So, whilst in the cage in hell, he has found a way to send visions to Sam to try and get him the hell out of that cage so he can take on The Darkness. The same thing could be said of Lucifer. What if, and this would be a twist, both Lucifer and Michael agree to put their differences aside (for now, lol) because they know The Darkness is a bigger threat and they have to deal with it first and foremost.

So, while I have no idea how he's getting the visions, I've been speculating *why* he's been getting them and I can't help but think it has to do with one of them (being so strong and all) having to be risen out of hell to fight The Darkness. Admittedly, I would love to see Lucifer return and be a "good guy" and be on our side fighting with us against The Darkness. LOL. That would just be an epic twist. hahahha. So anyway, those are my thoughts. :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-20 10:30
I have had similar thoughts about the brothers needing one or both archangels free in order to defeat the D. But the two big stumbling blocks to that plot are 1. what do you do with the archangel(s) after they defeat the D? Can't just stuff them back in the cage. 2. also, it would kind of take the brothers out of the equation. What could they add to the battle if brute force is what's needed to defeat the D? One thought I had is that maybe one or both archangels is freed and then FAILS in his efforts to defeat the D, leaving it up to Sam and Dean. There are so many directions that the story could take and it's fascinating to read all these different theories. Thanks for sharing yours!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-20 10:46
hey samanddean,

unless it's not about releasing them...it's more about the information they can provide? Amara said she was tricked by God....so maybe Michael or possibly luci can provide Sam and dean with some needed info.....I can see Michael being the one offering such intel...and I can see his reward in the end being his release from the cage...not so much luci though...I think luci and what he represents (evil) is part of the natural order....the balance if you will, for without evil there would be no good. ...possibly LOL :o
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-20 13:00
I agree sugarhi. I assume it's info the boys will obtain, because if one or both archangels were freed I just don't see what would happen after they defeated the D. What to do with them plotwise? And what do Sam and Dean do while the angels are battling the D? It's an intriguing plot idea, I just don't think it will happen. If that is the direction the show takes, I hope they very carefully lay the groundwork for why Lucifer would want to help the brothers. And if Michael alone is released they better have some credible reason for why he would forgo his destined battle with Lucy and leave him to rot in the cage. I loved the archangels, Lucy especially, so I don't want the show to suddenly have them acting OOC.But I am absolutely thrilled at the prospect of Sam paying a visit to the cage no matter what the outcome.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-20 10:37
I can totally get the Michael thing...I can even understand why Sam is getting visions from Michael in the first place. Michael is the strongest of all God's angels. I believe he also knows the Winchesters. I believe it's even possible that he can sense Amara's hold over Dean, which is why Michael would go through Sam. Sam is also known to pray to God...and as an archangel, Michael is probably aware of this. Michael has no pull with Dean anymore, but Sam ....Sam does. I can wrap my head around Michael. It makes sense. Michael would want to fight the D...he's battled it before....and Michael has always believed himself to be a good son...following Dad's orders...even if Michael didn't exactly get what those orders were. I can even see God, playing a hand in Michael's ability to send visions to Sam. (even though I don't expect to see God, I still think he's around and he does help).

It's Luci that would need explaining, if show decides to go that route. I can't see any reason why Luci would be anything but thrilled by the notion of what Amara is planning. Given her connection to Luci and the MOC...if anything, I would think Luci is just biding his time ...waiting for Amara to destroy what God created, believing that he would be released.(spec of course)...even if that wasn't the case, I still can't see luci being anything but pleased at the fact that Amara has been released and is willing to destroy everything God created.....to suit her outlook...after all isn't that what luci was all about? Show would have to give us a plausible explanation as to why luci would want to help with the darkness...

what would be fun is if show went in another direction and really gave us an awesome twist....

like it was Bobby or Gabriel or even somehow...Crowley...

or even more exciting....

someone we haven't thought of yet....

dare we dream:D

i'm looking to finding out who....but especially looking out to finding out the why and the how....;)

as for God...if we ever do get to see him, I think it will be when the series ends and I think he will thank the boys for all they've done. As for who god will be....I still think it could be chuck...but if it's someone else....

then my hope is.....whenever show is done...and the boys do get to meet God...I hope kripke makes an onscreen appearance and plays him... after all....kripke created the boys as did God....he's had a hand in helping them (as does God)...and he's still around even though we can't see him (as is God).
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-20 13:05
My main issue with it being Michael who appeared to Sam is the statement "I could never fool you." As far as I can recall, Sam had virtually no contact with Michael (I don't count his meatsuit confronting him at the cemetery) and Michael certainly never tried to fool him. So if it is Michael, the writers have some splainin to do!
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-11-20 13:26
Well Sam spent who knows how many years in The Cage with Michael, so "I could never fool you" could refer to things we haven't seen yet.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-20 17:55
Oops! I completely forgot about that. That also applies to Lucifer. I had thought that the vision wasn't Lucifer because he too had never really tried to fool Sam. But not only did I forget about the many "hell" years that Sam spent in the cage, I also forgot about Sam's Lucifer hallucinations in S 7. Maybe they were visions sent by Lucifer as well; Sam was able to get a handle on them such that Lucifer was no longer able to fool him- well, until he completely lost it in the hospital. In fact, whether it's Lucifer or Michael it would be really fascinating to learn some more about the horrors Sam had to live through in the cage. Thanks for reminding me Percys! Bottom line, though, I still agree with sugarhi that the visions have been orchestrated by God.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-11-20 13:48
Percy,

You make a very good and valid point. Sam was not only locked in the cage with Luci for a century plus years, but with Michael as well. Castiel made a comment once about Sam's mutilated soul...and Luci and Michael having nothing but time to use Sam as their virtual punching bag....we have no idea what kind of head games Michael played on Sam. I doubt very highly, given sam knocked Michael into the pit in the first place, that he spent the century that Sam was down there for defending him against Lucifer.....for all we know, Michael played head games on sam right along with Lucifer... I can totally picture a good cop/bad cop scenario playing out between Michael and Luci on Sam.......and if that's the case it's very likely Sam never bought into it...thus not being fooled by Michael....

again...a more plausible reason for me to believe that if these visions are coming from the cage it's Michael rather than luci sending them....

again...if it is luci, which would kind of be unexciting and kind of unoriginal..... we need a valid explanation at why it would be luci and how all of a sudden he can eavesdrop on conversations the boys are having in the car...and why all of a sudden he can connect to sam again... and why he would care if the D is released in the first place.....it's a logic thing...;)