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I’m smiling right now.  Oh sure, “Our Little World” was a good episode, but that’s not the reason.  Its episode six into this eleventh season and except for the notorious episode 3, this season has been amazingly awesome.  And it’s all due to the one thing that I’ve been picking apart in my reviews since season six.  Writing.  Will wonders never cease.  

It’s hard to call a season a success after six episodes, but let’s just call it a damn good start.  By itself, “Our Little World” doesn’t set the SPN Verse on fire.  Always reliable writer Robert Berens gave us a serviceable episode that stuck to the basics of moving a story along, with a few big reveals thrown in at the end for fun.   But when you couple it with the exceptional four episodes (yes, I’m omitting that other one), suddenly it’s a crucial piece of an epic tale.  And we did learn some new things that are definitely important for later. 

The Continuity Fairy Has Been Busy!

The continuity fairy has been sprinkling all sorts of dust over season eleven, and suddenly I’m having strange visions of head writer Andrew Dabb in a tutu (sorry for the disturbing visual).  For the first time since season five these writers look like they’re actually comparing notes and working within the boundaries. They’re actually following rules!  For starters, Sam declared in episode 11.01 that they should focus on saving people.  That hasn’t been forgotten in episode 11.06 and he’s doing something we haven’t seen since season four, trying to save the hosts possessed by the demons.  It’s amazing that his declaration has gone to that level of detail.  Sam is a wise one though and realizes not all can be saved.  He accepts it as a reality and doesn’t take a lot of time to dwell on it, except taking a second to count that he did save two out of three.

Then there’s Crowley cleaning up Amara’s mess from last week, which was important since Sam and Dean stayed in the same town working the case.  It goes to show, there is a residual damage to what’s left behind.  While I’m sad by the demise of the lovable-even-with-no-soul Len, at least he wasn’t left as a forgotten footnote for fans to obsess over for years to come (and trust me we would).  Berens carried on that soulless plot nicely and logically, wrapping it up without a single “WTF?” from the fans while not spending a lot of time on it either.  After all, there was a lot of cover.  


I felt there was some closure with the Dean and Crowley saga, and I hope that is true.  Crowley, after all this time, has finally decided he’s ready to kill Dean.  Okay, the “bromance” comment went a bit too far, but after all it was a major plot point for season ten (I know, I don’t like remembering it either).  Major kudos BTW for Sam getting in for once a passive-aggressive comment of his own, bringing up Dean and Crowley’s “summer of love.”  Was Crowley serious though about killing Dean or was it a test for Amara?  I think it was jealousy personally over the connection he saw between Dean and Amara and he wanted to end it before Amara could overpower him.  Too late!  

Continuity wins big though with the return of Metatron.  Cas fought his fear of his own inner brutality and what a better way than to take it out on Metatron!  I loved Castiel coming in and healing someone again.  Remember that Castiel can actually heal?  Boy, wouldn’t that have helped with Charlie? (Still bitter).  But the real prize was watching how dead on Berens got the sniveling Metatron and his attempts to manipulate poor Castiel.  Metatron may be down and out, but he’s still trying to earn a buck.  He’s resorted to stealing and letting people die for the sake a good story, and has even adapted to telling that story in the video age.  

Yes, I laughed when Castiel easily snagged the demon tablet from Metatron’s apartment.  After all it took for Metatron to get it last season and the fuss it raised in season eight, it was almost like the writers were declaring, “Nah, we’re done with it.”  May it enjoy its spot in the Men of Letters Archive, only to be discovered by some unwitting buffoon years later after Sam and Dean are long gone.  

Then there were just the little things that make a fan happy.  The return of the “paper wall of clues” on the motel room wall.  Or how about the return of the tacky loud motel wallpaper?  Way to re-use the walls from “Changing Channels.”  Or how about the dog on the skateboard in the TV news segment?  The newswoman joked “That dog thinks it’s people.”  That’s exactly the quote from Rowena to Castiel last season in “The Prisoner.”   “I'm sorry, you're just fascinating, an angel that rejected Heaven. That's like a fish that wants to fly or a dog that thinks it's people.”  Like I said, the little things.  

There’s a Great Story Too

Continuity aside, there was a lot going on in this week’s story and a lot of it worked.  Not everything.  I found Crowley struggling on how to manage a teenage girl to be a waste of his time, especially when we all knew that Amara would get the best of him by the end of the episode.  Their little talks were quite awkward.  But I loved how the story progressed the back and forth between the three stories, working their way to a fast and tense pace at the end.  Normally I don’t like that, but in this episode they all happened at the right breaks.  See, that tactic does work at times.  


The switching between the Sam and Castiel fight scenes was particularly interesting, with both technically having the same outcome, each taking the high road.  But I love surprise twists, and Sam’s rush to save Dean took a stunning turn as he was crippled again with another vision.  The timing was particularly interesting, don’t you think?  Was it meant to stop or warn?  

The back and forth then cleverly switched between Castiel and Dean, one side being mesmerizing exchange between Dean and Amara.  The sensual and reassuring way this budding young woman questioned Dean about their bond, wondering why there is such a connection between the two, it confirmed there’s no way that Dean can kill her.  I got the feeling it was more of a guardian/protector thing rather than an attraction, but no doubt they have something between them.  Sam and Castiel can see it and they weren’t even there.  

The other side had Castiel finally breaking Metatron, getting him to talk.  It just goes to show what great things Curtis Armstrong can do with the right material.  No wonder he’s cynical, he knows the truth.  He knows that any knowledge of the real God would ruin the faithful, and suddenly we’re again questioning who is the real hero of the story, God or Amara?  So, Amara is God’s sister.  That isn’t too surprising given this show.  It loves showing the epic battles among family.  We had the dysfunctional archangel siblings, the twist on Cain and Abel, so why not God himself having kin?  It really adds up in a show that’s primary theme is family.  How exactly though does Amara plan to find dear bro and what sort of destruction will she leave in her path?  There has to be a reason she’s feared other than scary bedtime stories.    

The true fallout though came in a tense situation between Dean, Castiel, and Sam at the bunker after it was all over.  Alright, it wasn’t outright fighting, but there was a lot of implications being thrown.   I love that Castiel stopped himself from killing Metatron and took mercy on him.  That is a very Cas thing to do, despite Dean’s objections.  It isn’t fair to take someone out when he’s down, no matter what he’s done.  I even loved the guilt tinged, “I put him in traction.”   Was Castiel’s words to Dean him just being angry or could he sense that there was something that Dean wasn’t telling him about Amara getting away?  I think it’s both.  It’s rather entertaining to see Castiel jump back at one of Dean’s outbursts the way Sam normally would.  Sam just stood there and watched, even taking Dean’s swipe about getting messages from God.  I can only assume that Sam is too worried about his own situation right now.  

Worried he should be too.  Holy crap!!! I was most freaked out by Sam’s final shot, the memories of his visions hitting him thick.  It’s the cage!  I felt a deep pit in my stomach over Sam’s terrified reaction.  That was one freaky visual, the ancient stone box with strange symbols, all just large enough for fingers to work their way through, suspended from chains in Hell.  I’m sure Sam is coming to the realization that maybe these visions aren’t coming from God.  He probably has a good idea who they are coming from and he’s spooked for sure.  

I’ve stopped questioning why Sam doesn’t share such things with Dean, but I’m sure he doesn’t feel comfortable when Dean is flying off the handle with Cas and making snide comments about God visions.  I wish he’d at least talk to Castiel.  But then again, Cas hasn’t been himself lately either.  I’m holding out hope that at least he’ll say something cryptic to Sheriff Donna next week.  Or, there’s…oh, I won’t spoil it.  


But if Sam’s vision didn’t get us, then the closing of Amara out in the real world did.  Not only did they use the awesome, “Girl, You’ll Be a Woman Soon,” but they used the Urge Overkill version, which is far superior to the original Neil Diamond version (and I love Neil Diamond).  It really added something to the eerie feel of Amara being on her own in the world.  

The question is, who are you most worried about at this point, Sam or Dean?  I’m wondering what has Dean so on edge.  Is it a feeling of responsibility, or that the control Amara has scaring him?  He’s not fully on board Sam’s policy of not killing people, and seemed to enjoy that he could kill the demon in the damaged meatsuit.  Sam wondered why he was so eager to just charge in and try to kill Amara, especially when they didn’t know how to do it.  Is it that Dean feels the need to be near her?   Something is really off and I don’t get why yet.  

Other Stray Thoughts

Has Castiel taken over Sam’s room, or did they give him his own room?  It looks a lot like Sam’s (the books, the files), and I do remember Sam telling him to watch Netflix in his room, but Castiel looked mighty cozy in there.  If they don’t have another room, Sam might be bunking with Dean again.  Should Cas get his own room?  How would an angel decorate his own room?  I advise you all to toss that one around amongst yourselves.  

I do have one request.  Now that Crowley’s hideout has been discovered, can we please stop with the whole Crowley running a bunch of black eyed buffoons in the dingy place on earth thing?  The boring meetings?  He needs to spend more time in Hell or out and about being a nemesis.  I swear those scenes usually drag an episode down and I’m tired of seeing the bureaucratic side of Crowley.  Given the Amara plot and Sam and Dean’s discovery it worked in this episode, but I was done with it early last season.   

Speaking of this week’s young Amara, didn’t she have that Dana Scully/Gillian Anderson vibe?  Yes, I’m very excited about the X-Files coming back.  

Quote of the episode:

Dean:  I thought you were going with socially acceptable binge watching, “The Wire” and “Game of Thrones.”  

Castiel:  Yeah, well, man cannot live on caviar alone Dean. 

Overall, I give this episode a B+.  Very well plotted, but a few slow bits with Crowley and his Hell on Earth dragging things down a bit.  It’s no big deal though given all we came away with.  More nuggets please!  We only have 3 more episodes until Winter Hellatus.  We’re hungry. 


# njspnfan 2015-11-13 09:15
Nice review, Alice. The pacing and continuity this season is so much better than it has been in very long time. Kudos to Andrew Dabb if he's the one that has managed to herd cats and get the writers on the same page.
# Alice 2015-11-14 22:06
It's kind of freaky, isn't it? It's been so long since I've been this impressed.

I noticed when I was at Comic Con that there was a definite shift in the writers room this season. Dabb now has the head writer title, but he's been an advisor to many of the writers for some time now. They call him the smartest guy in the room. Carver is still the guy who has the final word and makes all the decisions, but he and Dabb have a close working relationship. I think they see eye to eye in a lot of things. I also think Robert Singer scaling back his role has a lot to do with it too.
# PSG 2015-11-13 10:40
Great review. This episode sucked me back in after episode 3 turned me off. So now I am committed to catching up on my reviews. Yes I have been sick too but now I am so very excited again.
It has been a great season overall. Loving Amara. Loving that things are not black and white as to who is the real villain. My guess is God. Betrayal of family is the worst.
No surprise that Amara is family either. I was guessing God's consort but sibling dies make the symmetry sing.

I still hate Charlie and love Drowley!!! I wondered if the Crowley scene was his jealousy that Dean has moved on. Clearly Crowley will want to rejoin TFW against Amara but somehow I think Dean will be odd man out.

There is a connection. He will sympathize with Amara who was betrayed by family. He hates the Archangels and he thinks God is worthless. I have always wanted to see TFW without Dean the de facto leader.

It also struck me that the demon kill scene was quite the look at me bitch moment. If Dean’s behavior from the Mark was because of proximity to Darkness. .. well he may be wanting to give in to these urges.

I am very glad the writers are being consistent and especially with Sam's redemption arc.

Yes very young Scully. I am still planning to do those X-FILES reviews I have the boxed set so I will also review the mythology of the show at some point. Goodness I loved that show.

Will get back to Sleepy Hollow too. I have decided they won me back again. I believe.
# JuliaG 2015-11-14 16:33
I love Sam as well this year. Each "redemption arc" makes him look at himself and grow as a character, so I wish they would do the same with Dean. He screwed up time after time during seasons 9 and 10, and now the writers have him embroiled with his dark side again, so I doubt that he will take stock and start fixing himself.

I don't think that God is a villain in this story, but I'll wait until we see him and hear his side of things before making a judgement. We know that Amara has caused death on earth. Chances are that she will again. By Dean's own strict standards, she should be killed. She's a soul-sucking monster. She's bad, maybe not as bad as God might be, but we'll see I guess.

I love Amara's connection to Dean. She has a hold on him that will only cause problems and I'm dying to know how it pans out. Maybe you're right; Dean might be able to talk to her about family betrayals, considering that he was at both ends of it, Sam with Ruby, and him with Gadreel. He knows the hurt of being betrayed and maybe he can talk to her about his own betrayal of Sam, and that sometimes you can betray your own family even when you love them.

I assume that Drowley is Dean/Crowley? I'm glad is apparently over. It made Dean look like a hypocrite in light of what he did to monster Amy, who didn't kill nearly as many humans as the King of Hell.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-14 17:01
Julia G, I agree with every word of your post, especially this part:

He knows the hurt of being betrayed and maybe he can talk to her about his own betrayal of Sam, and that sometimes you can betray your own family even when you love them.
I've been thinking Amara's fascination with Dean stemmed from the fact that, like Amara, he has felt betrayed by a sibling. But you are quite right that he himself has also betrayed Sam and even came perilously close to murdering him. Yet the brothers have managed to get past these betrayals of each other (Sam more readily than Dean) and their unbreakable bond remains in place. Maybe that will help Dean deter Amara from her destructive path, or at least break the connection between them.
# JuliaG 2015-11-14 20:01
I thought that Dean and Amara were bonded through the MOC? She said Dean freed her, and Amara bears the Mark as now. Maybe she thinks that he gave it to her? All I know is that Amara is one of the most fascinating characters the show has had in a long time. I can't wait for what comes next. And I'm so happy both brothers have a story this year! I'm just as excited about Sam's visions, even if they are from Lucifer.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-14 21:19
It's true that they're bonded through the MOC but Amara seemed particularly fascinated by Dean even aside from that. Didn't she express something like that to him at the end of the ep? I forget exactly what she said, but she almost didn't seem to understand why she was so drawn to him. In fact, I'm going to re-watch the ep right now to remind myself of what she said. Also, I agree that Sam's visions seem every bit as exciting as the Dean/Amara connection. Maybe even more so, since I find the whole cage tease to be ridiculously thrilling.
# JuliaG 2015-11-14 22:58
Maybe young Amara doesn't know what the Mark means yet? Grown up Amara said that Dean freed her and showed him the Mark. Young Amara doesn't seem to know any of that.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 01:30
That's my take on it. That adult Amara is unaware of what young Amara is learning. As such I don't think adult Amara can control or make her do anything hence the earlier conversation in the mirror between the two when she told Jr. Amara to stay focused. I think the only way Amara could interact on our Earth plain was by manifesting thru human form which is why she chose the baby once she was freed. So young Amara is growing stronger and learning more about mankind and God's creation. The good, the bad, and the ugly. And I think that that is going to ultimately be her Achilles heel. That and her connection to Dean. I think once Amara has grown to her maximum power and matching age that they will meld into each other. That her ultimate goal/intent with Dean is to join with him, not in the sexual way people are thinking but more in the Dark Charlie/GoodCha rlie way. Duality. And then take on God and company. Or something like that. And I may have already said all this on an earlier post and if I did, I apologize. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 09:06
I'll grant you that maybe young Amara doesn't have the same knowledge as old Amara (although I'm not sure why that would be). But she does seem aware of the "score" she has to settle with God, i.e., being locked up. So you'd think she would also know some of the details. But aside from that, I'm not sure why she would ever need to "meld" with Dean (and it makes me chuckle just to read that sentence- this is a crazy show we watch!). Dean no longer has any qualities/power s that can benefit her, so why would there be a reason to meld? If she already has human form, it's not like she would need his as a meatsuit. I'm really quite curious as to how the show explains their connection and I hope it makes some sort of sense within the context of the show. Although every time I scoff at some plot line as being nonsensical I'm reminded of Kripke's 5 year arc, which I've always thought did not completely hang together- why the heck would the archangels need human form to conduct their destined battle? Why not just battle in heaven, as angels, as they had the first time? It made for glorious storytelling, but to me it never made that much sense.
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 13:10
Hello. I'm with S&D... why would Amara and Dean meld? Will they become one person? Will they be the prom king and queen? I'm not opposed to it happening, I'd just like it to make some kind of logical sense. I can see Amara being fascinated with Dean and vice versa and I can even see why they might be bonded in some way, but would like it explained a bit more. Some of Dean's connections these past seasons have left me scratching my head in a big way......Dean/C rowley?! That made zero sense to me; Crowley, hopped up on Sam's blood falls in love with Dean why? It undermined the entire demon Dean storyline for me. I was so happy to hear Sam get a bit of snark in on that..."summer of love." Heh! You go sassy pants. I am all for these one liners they've been giving Sam as a character... he's been 'exposition boy' for so long that I'd almost forgotten he originally had a personality, I am glad to see it back. I'd hate to think that the terminal lack of Sam had anything to do with Bob Singer, but it's looking more and more like that is the case.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 14:48
Will they be the prom king and queen?
# Sharon 2015-11-14 16:57
A redemption arc is needed for both brothers do you not think unless Dean,s actions are being white washed and at least Sam is moving forward as a character while Dean remains a touch stagnant
But we shall see where all this leads too? and I can honestly say this is the first episode I have rewatched in a long time so kudos to Mr Berens .
# PSG 2015-11-15 10:26
The redemption arc was clearly broadcast by the writing and it's not something I pulled out of my butt... okay. It's the writing that broadcast it as well as Sam's long fall last season. Human sacrifice, dark magic, ignoring everything but what you want. These are all bad bad things.

Dean actually knew he was doing something that Sam wouldn't like and felt terrible. They used his guilt to trigger a dark Dean arc by having him take the Mark.

The brothers are very different characters in terms of arc types. Dean isn’t the tragic hero Luke Sam or the reluctant hero. So Dean will never get the same arcs as Sam. Nor dies he make the same mistakes.

Dean is more an anti-hero, meaning he is always smart and dirty, and he falls into the knight errant category. A dude that drives around on the outskirts of society and saves folks from monsters. No matter what Dean has done he remains hsroic. For instance, he saved Lester's wife as a demon. He refused to kill Cas or Sam with the Mark.

They are different hero tropes. When I use these terms it is not a criticism. It's an acknowledgement of their heroic type which is established by the writing.

I Don't know when Dean tried to kill Sam. Are you referencing Soul Survivor. Jensen directed that. The fact that Dean picks up a butcher knife and puts in down in favor of a small hammer tells me that Dean’s intent was to give Sam a brutal beat down for torturing him. He wasn't going to kill him. We saw Dean kill demons and Lester, a man that condemned his wife to death and came to watch.
He didn’t kill Cole. He wasn't going to kill Sam. Jensen knows Dean best and he showed Dean putting the knife down.
# Sharon 2015-11-15 10:52
I never said you pulled out of anywhere but I do not agree with your view not before and not ever . I do not agree with your black and white view of both and how you see Sam and mostly certainly not how you see Dean and just because you put a ''heroic'' connotation on something he does , does not mean in reality it was.
Dean was just as responsible for the Darkness , totally responsible for the action.s that lead to putting Sam in that position whether someone agrees with Sam.s course or not and Dean is not beyond dubious behaviour himself , if there is no acknowledgement of that then Dean does not come across very well and putting the onus on Sam all the time is not the answer.

He does not make the same mistakes no he makes completely different ones that can lead to just as much hurt and chaos and betrayal of those close to him so like I said we will never agree on either one of them.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 11:14
I'm sorry but "small hammer"? That actually made me laugh out loud. Did you see that thing? It was huge!! And that last swing at Sam's head just before he ducked would have "killed him dead". I think it was Sam who refrained from killing Dean.

There was also the panic room where Dean vowed that he would rather see Sam die than become a monster. And this was a Sam who had never, up to that point used his demon powers for anything but good.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 15:00
There was also the panic room where Dean vowed that he would rather see Sam die than become a monster. And this was a Sam who had never, up to that point used his demon powers for anything but good.
Excellent point Cheryl!
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 19:01
How is drinking demon blood good? Dean saw what Ruby was doing although not her end game. He knew she was leading Sam by his nose down the path of good intentions. Slippery slope brother, slippery slope. Dean recognized her as evil early on. 'They want us dead, we want them dead'. Fooled you, screwed you and tricked you into using your powers. I think that's how Dean put it. Sam knew drinking the blood, not just blood but demon blood, was wrong, he justified it in his mind because he was saving people (and who amongst us really believes Ruby took that one guy to the ER?) and getting strong enough later on to kill Lilith. I never would have listened to another word that came out of Rubys mouth (and would have killed her first chance I got) after the crap she pulled about knowing all along who held Deans contract. Info that if they had earlier they might have been able to save Dean. And what does she say when Sam confronts her over it? 'Demon, Sam. Lyings kinda in the job description.' Why would you believe her regarding anything after that? Knowing she's manipulated you. Common sense says she'll do it again. And it's interesting when she might be losing control of Sam she throws sex into the mix. Demon blood and sex with a hot evil demon chick? Poor guy never stood a chance. ;)
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 19:19
Hindsight is always handy when trying to stop the apocalypse. Even Dean wavered on Sam's use of his powers. What did it matter how he was getting them? Sam was drinking demon blood which was gross but up until he released Lucifer he did nothing but good with it. If Dean had gone with Sam and Ruby maybe Sam doesn't make the same decisions (killing the nurse) that he did. I'm not defending Sam's demon blood addiction because we were supposed to be horrified by it. Dean was supposed to disown his brother. Lucifer was supposed to rise. Otherwise we don't get Sam's ultimate sacrifice in SS and the end of Kripke's tale. But honestly Sam thought he was doing the right thing. Dean thought (by allowing the angels to manipulate him) he was doing the right thing. In the end all that happened was that the demons and the angels were manipulating both brothers into starting the apocalypse. And they did.
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 19:46
FYI..... Sam DIDN'T kill the nurse, Ruby did. Sam decided that he needed her blood but Ruby did the actual killing. Just sayin'
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 22:21
Sam in his own words 'drank her dry while she watched'. She. As in nurse, not Ruby. That one is on Sam. Any other time we saw Sam drinking a demon possessed human not once was he drinking from a dead body. 'Wait your turn'. Remember?
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 23:18
The nurse was the last straw needed to put Sam where Lucifer wanted him. He was so far gone at that point the only thing that could have pulled him back was Dean's real VM. They never had a chance.

Drinking DB because he was infected by Famine isn't really on Sam. He didn't want that to happen which is why he told Dean to lock him down. He did drink DB in SS that looked like from dead bodies. Cas and Dean were draining upside down bodies that didn't look very alive.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 19:29
Nobody is saying drinking demon blood was good or that Sam was right to trust Ruby. But up to the point where Dean locked Sam up he had shown no signs of becoming a monster that would warrant letting him die. As Cheryl said, he had only used his powers to save innocent people by exorcising the demons. And his end goal- killing Lilith- was certainly a desirable goal. Dean acknowledged as much when he said "who would've thought killing Lilith was a bad thing."
# percysowner 2015-11-15 11:43
And the year before Dean tricked Sam into being possessed by an angel after hearing Sam was willing to die, ignoring everything except what he wanted. Then, after Gadreel killed Kevin and two other angels AND humans, Sam finally found out an expelled Gadreel. So Dean goes off in a huff not even bothering to find out if Sam is okay after all that (he wasn't totally BTW, Gadreel had left part of himself in Sam) and never apologized.

The Mark was doing a perfectly FINE job holding back the Darkness as long as Cain was wearing it and Cain retained a copy of the Mark, so it might well have held against The Darkness if Dean hadn't killed Cain. So yeah, Dean's recklessness was every bit as responsible for releasing The Darkness as Sam trying to remove the Mark from Dean. I know, I know Sam should have just accepted that Dean took a mark the epitomized killing your brother and just said, "when Dean wants me dead, I'll let him kill me, because Dean is an anti-hero and is always, always heroic" and he should have said "The Mark turned Dean into a demon when he died and Dean isn't immortal and WILL die again and WILL turn into a demon again, but HEY DEAN is a HERO! I'm not, so I shouldn't try to save him from a fate he declared worse than death or save the world from a demonic Dean". But neither attitude makes much sense to me.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 17:49
? Dean killed Cain because he himself said he would never stop killing. They didn't know about the BOTD or biblical consequences then. Cain was killing men, women and children - whomever fell under the mantle of his "poisonous issue". What did he say 'at best 1 in 10'? I suppose Dean could've let Cain Kill him but then that wouldn't have solved or stopped Cains murder spree. Taking Cain off the board didn't change Deans situation at all, but it did stop his rampage.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 14:47
I have to agree with Sharon- just because you say something doesn't make it so. And, like Sharon, I think both brothers have need of "redemption" of some sort, and since both Sam and Dean, as well as the writers and TPTB all have voiced the same thing, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we are right and you are wrong. Furthermore, your reference to the hero tropes is of academic interest at best. SPN has prided itself on its sheer creativity and willingness to take the characters to places that other shows only dream of. It's pretty obvious that they haven't written Dean within the limited confines of the "antihero" trope. Antiheros are usually quite one dimensional characters, with little nuance or subtlety about them. There is nothing heroic about them. The actual dictionary definition is this:

a protagonist who lacks the attributes that make a heroic figure, as nobility of mind and spirit, a life or attitude marked by action or purpose, and the like.

And I may be a Sam fan, but I also love Dean and there is a hell of a lot more to him than that. Like Sam, he is a heroic figure who screws up on a semi-regular basis, and then tries to do his best to rectify things. I do agree with you that this season has shown us a Sam who is hell bent on returning to the days when the brothers were all about saving people, and it appears that Dean is not quite there yet. So I would think as a Dean girl you would be frustrated that Sam alone is being portrayed as demonstrating some very admirable character development. Maybe you ARE frustrated and that explains your unceasing efforts to portray Sam in a poor light. Rest assured, I think Dean will ultimately follow in Sam's footsteps and return to the heroic status that both brothers had shared in many of the earlier seasons.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-11-15 15:07
Thanks SaD. Above started to turn again normal Sam VS Dean wars (and some things from seasons past that has something to do to this review and episode?) Anyway, I agree with you. For me both have made mistakes and both are trying to live through them the best they can in the weird world they live. Even now they are trying to resolve first to themselves the stuff that are bothering them or what they fear. In the long run both will come clean I am sure. When they understand the visions/bond themselves.

- Lilah
# debbab 2015-11-13 12:59
Berens left no loose ends like Len out there for speculation. The WTF look Dean gives Crowley after his bromance comment was not scripted. It was an organic response from an actor who knows his character so well. The editing was amazing as it had continuity and made sense in our SPN world. Kudos to editor J. Pickel. Grushka's underscore was spot on to bring out the emotions. The direction by Showalter, along time director of SPN was brilliant with the last scene of Amara taking in God's beautiful creation. So many throwbacks- so many new threads. Again, siblings and family distress is not a new theme but between entities... I disagree about Crowley - this character is showing more sides of late - He admits to his role in putting Lucifer in the Cage and that he doesn't fear him- This with the Sam's vision scene is a great set up that Crowley is not just for our amusement. His hand gets as twisted as his soul and after what he did to Dean last year and this year snatching Amara, well I thought okay-he deserves it. I was gleeful that Metatron got a beating but it was also showing he is still a manipulative and mean bastard. His Any Rand bootstrap speech from him was hilarious and poignant but Cas is not buying it. The four leads are on separate but colliding paths. Yes, so far, save a poor script with Bad Seed, this season is starting out well. Hoping it continues to build and yes episode 8 will be a comic relief I hope.
Berens says much of the good stuff was edited out. It this is what remained- I can only wonder what is sitting on the editor's floor and wouldn't you like to see the deleted scenes? RIP Len. You did the right thing and so does Beens.
# debbab 2015-11-13 13:01
Mistyped Beens should be Berens.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-13 23:56
Don't feel bad, I just read your corrected post as Misty-ped! ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-13 14:23
Berens says much of the good stuff was edited out. It this is what remained- I can only wonder what is sitting on the editor's floor and wouldn't you like to see the deleted scenes?

Wow, I didn't know that. I've always wished that the Season DVDs had way more deleted scenes and less of some of the other features. In fact, I would be tempted to buy a dvd of all of the deleted scenes from the seasons, although I honestly have no idea how much there is from each ep. Minutes? Hours? Does anyone have any idea?
# cheryl42 2015-11-13 16:14
I actually tweeted to Berens that we should get a writers cut. He liked my tweet. I think he said that much was cut because he had packed so much in. Too much for 42 min. But he seemed very happy with the way the episode was edited.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-11-13 16:22
Speaking of deleted scenes; where the bleep are the rest of the Sam torture scenes? We only saw a bit that was shown in the S11 promo.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-13 20:52
Screw that! What about the demonic bedbug scenes?! That editor is obviously a hack! ;)
# Mallena 2015-11-14 17:35
The scene I really wanted to see was what happened after Sam and Dean woke up in Crowley's lair. I love the scenes where one or the other has to pick the other one up, usually by the jacket. Then there is some sexy staggering, and getting out the door with that bow legged walk of Dean. Just saying, and not in a slashy way. Some dialog about what they saw or remembered would be nice too. On a side topic, could Sam burn that green jacket?? Very tired of it. He needs to wear v necked tees and flannel or plaid over that. Come on, we all know the bod is fantastic. I'm too old to be typing this, must be having a menopause hot flash. Sorry. Also, cage scene with fingers! One of the best visuals ever, good work team.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-13 14:19
I agree with almost every word of your review Alice and I made most of the same exact comments in my post to Bookdal's article. One thing that I didn't mention related to this part of your review:

Now that Crowley’s hideout has been discovered, can we please stop with the whole Crowley running a bunch of black eyed buffoons in the dingy place on earth thing? The boring meetings? He needs to spend more time in Hell or out and about being a nemesis. I swear those scenes usually drag an episode down and I’m tired of seeing the bureaucratic side of Crowley.

I have felt the same way since the very first time they showed Crowley holding staff meetings. Portraying the Leviathan as corporate suits was not effective and it's just as big a fail with the demons. It saps any traces of menace and otherworldlines s from the demons and is a large part of why the demons have become jokes. But I still give the ep an A because so much of it was great for all of the reasons you stated.

Finally, Sam most certainly should not have to bunk with Dean! The big guy needs a space of his own. Moreover, I thought that angels don't sleep, so Cas doesn't need his own room. He can just hang out in the library while the boys are sleeping and do whatever it is that angels do during their sleepless days and nights. Play solitaire, maybe?:)
# JJA 2015-11-13 15:55
Good review, but there are still TWO huge flaws with season 11: #1-Castiel, and #2-Crawley. Why exactly do they plan to do with these characters?

Castiel was great for much of seasons 4-8, but his story has gone stale for seasons 9-11. So far this season, he (1) recovered from Rowena's curse, and (2) watched a lot of Netflix. Since they're paying the actor to remain on Supernatural, can't they find something better for him to do? For example, figure out WHY Castiel comes back from the dead? Why is Castiel so special? Why was HE the angel who became friends with the Winchesters? What is his ultimate destiny? There are so many rich story possibilities, yet why don't they ever explore them?

Crawley too has gotten ridiculous, despite the amazing actor they have playing him. Why doesn't he kill-off Sam & Dean? Why didn't he kill Sam last season after Sam tried to kill him? I mean, is there something there? Who were the demons Crawley had to overcome in order to become "King of Hell"? Are any of these Demons trying to get back at him? These topics need to be explored.

Honestly, something needs to be done with these supporting characters. They are series regulars, yet they're being treated as mere window dressing. They should have full episodes devoted fully to them. OR, just kill them off and bring in some new characters!

One other gripe: they should NOT have killed-off Hannah. OK, it's not quite the same thing since they now have a man playing the role, but still.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-13 20:49
Uhm, they did kill off Male!Hannah, so poor Hannah is no more.
# JJA 2015-11-13 23:31
Yes, I know. Hannah is no more, and it was a STUPID decision (much like killing Kevin & Charlie).

But, Hannah just wasn't the same since Erica Carroll stopped playing the character. Not that I didn't like man-Hannah, but I just liked Erica Carroll in the role. At very least, they could have played-up the homo-erotic thing a bit more.
# njspnfan 2015-11-13 17:35
Was it just me or did Sam's vision of the cage kind of look like the Borg ship from Star Trek TNG :):):):)
# BoGirle 2015-11-13 20:20
Like this Borg ship?

Why yes, yes it did!
# Alice 2015-11-14 21:52
I was thinking that! I even shouted, "Resistance is Futile." Didn't Lucifer say that to Sam once? Gotta check transcripts.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 00:29
No Alice, I think that's just Dean's standard pick up line... ;) What? It would work on me!!! Haha.
# strawhair 2015-11-13 19:26
I'm excited for the X-Files coming back too. Two reasons, especially. They're shooting in Vancouver again, and most of my favorite episodes were from before the move to LA. Also Chris Carter and Glen Morgan seem to have gotten over their (read "Morgan's") feud.

This was a good episode. Not the best from Berens, maybe - for me that would be "The Werther Project", which made a good story out of the Mark when it seemed used up - but like you say, it keeps the momentum of the season going.

I loved the fact that Castiel's PTSD/agoraphobi a/couch potatoism made him go back and turn on the TV again, and that's how he discovered Metatron's whereabouts, and that's what got him out into the world again. Maybe there is some divine intervention going on here.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-13 20:33
I had wondered the same thing about Cas spotting Metatron on the news show. What were the odds that Cas would be watching the news and that Metatron would be filming the event and that a fleeting glimpse of Metatron would be reflected in the camera screen? Pretty slim odds. So I thought maybe the hand of God was involved. It also seemed like a little miracle that Cas could pause and then rewind the news. My TV sure doesn't do that with live programming!
# BoGirle 2015-11-13 21:55
AH! I hadn't thought of that.....maybe he was DVR'ing the news... he WAS watching reality TV before hand and everyone knows you need to DVR the news and watch reality TV live....:p;)
# Alice 2015-11-14 21:51
My DVR does that actually. It records programs as you watch them up to an hour so you can always rewind live programming. Most of the ones out there do. Some of the cheaper services don't do that.

Good point, that does seem like some divine intervention, don't you think? I don't believe in dumb luck on this show.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-14 22:40
I am always about 10 steps behind technologically , so I don't have a DVR and I was not aware they could rewind live programming. That's actually pretty cool. On the other hand, it raises the question of how the boys got cable service at the bunker! They should have had a scene where the cable guy came to install the wiring and was agog at all of the bizarre sights in the bunker. And maybe a scene where the brothers are arguing about which package to get.:D
# YellowEyedSam 2015-11-15 11:05
Wait what? Americans can't pause and rewind live TV?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 14:07
Well, apparently all of the other Americans can, just not behind-the-time s little old me! Hey, what else are they keeping from me? I keep hoping they'll invent some kind of portable phone, because these days it's almost impossible to find a pay phone. ;)
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 15:25
That's OK S&D.... I don't have DVR either (although I did know about it! :p). I just don't want to pay for it; ridiculously expensive, especially here in the big city.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-11-15 19:39
Well.. we don't use dial up now ;)
# vince 2015-11-13 21:59
You are aware that Dabb is the writer who made one of the biggest continuity fuck ups when he made reapers into angels, right?
# BoGirle 2015-11-13 22:28
What does that have to with this episode penned by Bob Berens?
# Alice 2015-11-14 21:41
Dabb didn't introduce that awful piece of canon with reapers as angels. It was Brad and Eugenie in Taxi Driver, episode 8.19. You know, the writers with the absolute worst disregard for canon in the history of this show. By the time Dabb used it, that was episode 8.22. Also, this is the first season Dabb is head writer. Adam Glass has been the head writer for the last few seasons, so he's the one that let that slip.

For the record though, on my worst episodes list of all time, Andrew Dabb has a few spots on it. As a writer, he's wildly inconsistent and I've called him out on it many times. However, he plays a very different role in the writers room. He's an advisor that most of the writers trust (there's a few that write on their own regardless). I have no idea if he's the one responsible for this sudden burst on fluidity in the scripts, but I have every reason to believe he's playing a role. Fingers crossed it keeps up for the rest of the season.
# Vince 2015-11-15 01:53
Nothing in "Taxi Driver" suggested that reapers were angels. it introduced the idea that reapers can make themselves visible, which doesn't go against any of the loose canon that Kripke set up with them, ie being able to alter perception. Dabb's fuck up came a whole season later, there was absolutely no reason for Dean to say, "I like you, Tessa, okay? For an angel. But tell me, why are you doing this?" So maybe Glass and Carver and Singer are partially to blame for letting that line slip past them, but Dabb's still the one that wrote it. It's his fuck up through and through.

And Buckner and Leming for all their perceived writing faults, are about as on point with canon as any other writer (Hell, Kripke has done more retconning and ignoring of canon then they have). If any writer played fast and loose with the continuity it was Glass.
# PSG 2015-11-15 10:13
Alice, as I recall the Nepotism Duo introduced the concept of Rogue Reapers. Somehow the backlash that engendered caused a show twitter newbie to say that reapers were angels. I don't remember who. And then they doubled down wirh it. Although in all honesty, Dabb at least used it as a credible part of the plot. By making reapers angels they too suffered during the fall. As to how they still get around without wings... loose plothole. Reaper power I guess.

Bloodlines was awful but the dude won me over with Reichenbach. He's been pretty solid since.

I suspected that both Glass moving on and Singer stepping down from producing would make for a better show. The writers room seemed divided previously and Glass was an ego. If Dabb and Carver have a rapport... all the better. Carver strikes me as an introvert.
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 15:29
Except that Crowley killed Ajay the rouge reaper with an angel killing sword and he flamed out with burning eyes just like all the other angels do, strongly suggesting that Ajay was an angel. And besides, it's not a "fuck up" per se, it was just a plot development, it didn't contradict anything that had already been established. Don't get me wrong I hated the whole rouge reaper thing with a passion, it was dumb and uncreative, but it wasn't an error and it wasn't on Dabb.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 18:05
That's how I saw it too. Plot development. Stupid, lame, lazy plot development. "Hey, let's make everybody an angel!"
I think it's along the lines of "Angel of Death", so why wouldn't reapers then be angels as well. I think part of my resistance was due to my being sick to death with how they were writing angels by that point. Powerful? Eh. Frightening? Hardly. Mysterious? Nope, not really. Boring as Hell? Absolutely. I especially hated Naomi and the warring faction leaders. I expected Zachariah et al, I got milquetoast. The only Angel they have really written well (sorry Hannah lovers - see milquetoast) was Gadreel. So of course they had to kill him off. I just realized, Hannah for some odd reason reminded me of Amelia. Personality wise? I don't know why but she does. And I didn't care for Amelia either. ;)
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 19:05
Angel swords are so common now I'm surprised they aren't included in the purchase of every McD's Happy Meal!
# YellowEyedSam 2015-11-15 11:02
Adam Glass has been the head writer for the last few seasons, so he's the one that let that slip.
That explains why this season is so good
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 15:40
Absolutely agree. And PSG says Glass was an ego? Wow! I'm not refuting that claim, it's probably very true, some of Glass's tweets during the awful About A Boy were nauseatingly self aggrandizing. I'm just trying to figure out what he's got such a swelled head about? He was mediocre at best, biased to a fault and weak at characterizatio n. It turns out he wrote for comics too just like Robbie Thompson.... and it shows on both of them. Robbie T. just has more basic skill than Glass IMO.
# Shante 2015-11-14 07:06
hi alice, i agree, my greade for this is a C for the angel parts and Crowley scenes, the rest is great
# Shante 2015-11-14 07:06
# Tealka 2015-11-15 00:32
SN has been pretty ridiculous at times, but the notion that "God" and Amara are siblings takes the cake. I can't wait to meet the parents.

Grade for this mindless episode: D-
# PsG 2015-11-15 11:00
Logically Dean is the one character that is not responsible for the Darkness. He repeatedly told Sam not to use the Bot5. He also told Cas not to.
Yes he had the Mark. Having the Mark stopped the Darkness.
It was Sam’s quest to use the BotD to remove the Mark. Carver writes 4 times in his finale script that removing the Mark releases the Darkness.
I don't know why you are so invested in it being Dean’s fault but you are ignoring loads of canon.
I won't bother citing the transcripts. I know that being confronted wirh canon upsets you.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 11:31
Well I suppose you could say that Cain had the Mark that held the Darkness at bay. Did Cain know what responsibility he held? I guess we'll never know since he's dead. But I think the point some are making (Dean as well) is if Dean hadn't taken on the Mark it would still be with Cain, safe and the Darkness still contained. So Sam was left with two choices. Either do whatever he could to remove the Mark from Dean and deal with the unknown consequences or watch Dean turn into the unstoppable force that would destroy mankind (the picture that Castiel painted for Dean). The proverbial rock and a hard place. A decision that Sam would never have had to make if Dean had not been manipulated by Crowley into taking on the Mark in the first place.
# PsG 2015-11-15 11:40
Dean took the Mark and Cain still Had it. They both had it.
We were never shown Dean losing it in s 10. This was emphasized in the finale. Sam and Cas use human sacrifice. Dean refuses to do human sacrifice. Ergo ironically Dean was in control. Since BotD Sam was shown out of control. Freeing Metatron was very reckless. Working with Rowena= reckless. Giving Rowena more power... reckless. Ignoring the threat of the Stynes and guilt tripping Charlie out of hiding... reckless. Racing to the Wethersfield box to get a book for Rowena... RECKLESS. Sam would be dead if Dean had not shown up. Sam was out of control.

It was obvious since Lester that Sam was racing to ruin and would start Apocalypse 2.0. I pretty much saw it in 10:1 abd definitely by 10:2. The writing is that good.
# percysowner 2015-11-15 11:59
Dean refuses to do human sacrifice unless it benefits him. He had zero trouble torturing and killing demon after demon and their meat suits to find Lisa. He's very reluctant to try Sam's attempt to return to not killing unless they have to. He was more than willing to let Sam sacrifice himself to save the world (I agree that one was necessary). He was more than willing to sacrifice Sam's sanity to bring Sam back from the Cage instead of even trying to ask Cas semi in charge of Heaven to take Sam's soul to Heaven to rest. He was more than willing to not only let Sam die detoxing from demon blood twice but happily LEFT SAM TO DIE ALONE AND IN PAIN and go off and mope about how hard it was for DEAN that Sam might die alone and in pain. He didn't even stay by the door to hear if Sam was in real trouble, or guard him against an angel that might release him from the Cage. Dean was more than willing to sacrifice Sam's bodily autonomy to keep Sam alive when Sam was willing to die. There are other ways to sacrifice people and Dean is willing to do them.
# PsG 2015-11-15 12:20
Good lord. That’s what hunters do. Was the torture brutal. Yes. Was sam's torture of Darkness brutal yes. Is it meant to play off of current politics probably. Y'all were cheering when Sam tortured Dar.
For now Sam is trying to save more people BECAUSE HE KNOWS HE IS RESPONSIBLE. Good for him. He wants to be a better man. It's
called redemption, atonement. It's great is it
sustainable. Not really. He's killed because he had to. He's going to have to find a better balance. When innocent lives are not at stake I
am all for it.
Dean didn’t trick Sam. Gadreel tricked Sam pretending to be Dean. Pretty standard angel behavior to secure vessels. Dean lied when Sam started questioning. And Dean prayed for help. A scenario Metraron set up by making Cas human and engineering the fall.
For the record I think Metatron also fed Sam’s fear of the Mark and Dean losing it. Metatron has been very busy since his introduction.

The writing proved Dean right about Sam listening to Ruby and drinking demon blood because it was all to release Lucifer and start the Apocalypse.

Dean gets the Mark and Sam still starts an Apocalypse. .. Funny that.

Maybe take out your anger on the writers. The writing is not my fault.

Also maybe read up on logic. Dean having the Mark does not mean Sam had to use the BotD. The irony is Sam sure didn't save Dean. He put him in the frying pan with Amara. It's funny how being wrong leado to even more wrong.

I think Amara is better than the Archangels and God though. Maybe Dean can influence her. She seems to care about human suffering.
# JuliaG 2015-11-15 17:58
But, if Amara is better than God, didn't Sam do a good thing then in releasing her?

About Dean tricking Sam with the Gadreel possession, Dean obviously gave Gadreel access to his mind to trick Sam. They both agreed that Sam would say no to Gadreel, but maybe not to "Dean". The first thing that "Dean" said when he entered Sam's mind was to Death. He said he was sorry he didn't have any crownuts. No way Gadreel wouldn't have known about that. Dean tricked Sam. If he didn't do it directly, he certainly made it possible. That's one of the reasons he needs redemption, along with abandoning Sam in the aftermath of all this mess, taking the Mark and making Sam's life miserable after, almost killing him with a hammer when he was a demon, (if Cas hadn't been there, Sam would be dead), tricking him AGAIN when he lured Sam to get killed as Death's condition to helping Dean, and so on and so on.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 18:34
None of what you just cited falls under the category human sacrifice. Dean has never done that. In fact he stood up against Sam regarding using the virgin Nancy for a spell based on Rubys (lying skank) word that it would work. Sam was all down with it. Sam didn't even try to come up with an alternate plan. To human sacrifice. Even Hendrickson was against it. So no, Dean would never agree to that.

Dean was the one who stressed saving people, he was always concerned with the victims. Sam as an early example was the one who was ready to abandon the campers to themselves while there was a Wendigo hunting them so that he (they) could continue searching for Dad. They have both regretfully both hardened and strayed from this with the killing of demonically, sometimes angelically possessed humans for various reasons... and now Sam, based on the release of The Darkness has decided to try to be better about it but saving people/hunting things has always been Dean's raison d'etre.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 18:55
Sam only wanted to leave before he suspected a Wendigo and then he wanted to get everyone out. As far as Nancy goes Sam never said he was "down with it". He wanted to talk about it but he certainly was glad that Dean had another plan. One that didn't work out at all but at least Nancy got to live to be horribly tortured a few minutes later. It was a lesson for Sam that the demons wanted him to remember for when they needed him to make more sacrifices in the future. Always go with Ruby's plan.

But Dean has on a few occasions been willing to sacrifice Sam's life. I think demon blood aside Sam is still mostly human. And Dean has always been an act first worry about the consequences later kind of guy (as he said he doesn't think things all the way through). Hence the folly of the MOC which cost innocent lives either by Cain or by Dean.

As far as the Saving People half of the bumper sticker goes I was having issues with that as far back as S5. No one seemed interested in exorcizing demons anymore or trying to find cures for "monsterness". I am glad that the new/old mantra (whether it came from Sam or Dean) is to try and get back to saving people no matter what the affliction may be.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 19:49
My bad. I got it confused with Sam's earlier statement 'Finding dads not enough, now we gotta babysit too?' This was said when they knew that there was something out there hunting people and the group was heading into it. Sam did tell Dean once they were out there that they needed to get them to safety and then get back to looking for Dad.

As far as Jus In Bello, Sam didn't raise a card when Ruby proposed it, Dean was the one who did and then pulled him aside. Sam was actually considering it, it was Dean's refusal and then coming up with a different plan that changed his mind. That and I would hope the bloody visual he painted for Sam of holding down an innocent girl while cutting out her heart. The fact that Sam even considered it showed how far he was slipping. Ruby would have never sacrificed herself to save them as the solution and didn't intend to. She knew she was driving a wedge between the brothers, especially with the drop about the new up and comer Lilith gunning for Sam that he forgot to mention. The plan itself was gutsy and inspired.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 21:50
When they first went out into the wilderness they thought they were going to find their dad. They knew that some guys were out camping and weren't overdue to check in. All they really had was a worried sister. Sam realized they weren't going to find their dad so he wanted to get back on his trail. When Sam figured out they were dealing with a Wendigo he decided that everyone needed to get to safety. After his teen filled angst ridden night (Sam was written horribly in some of the earlier S1 episodes) he considered Dean's advice and helped save everyone.

In JIB he was just considering Ruby's plan. Thankfully he was not under the influence of DB so he was still listening to his brother. I wonder if that episode was before the writers strike. The original plan had been for Sam to go dark in S3 and save Dean from hell. That all had to change. But I always got the feeling that JIB was supposed to be the turning point for Sam. It would have made sense if that had been the case. We never saw that kind of thinking from Sam the rest of the season. Made me think that was the point they had to change course.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-16 04:56
Speaking of turning points: Did you know that in Weekend at Bobbys/Season Six that when the boys went "International' the reason that Sam says 'A deals a deal' and stops Dean just as he's about to torch Crowleys bones was because at that point of time Show was kicking around the idea that Sam was actually working with Crowley. He was soulless then, remember. What a strange direction that would have taken the story!
# BoGirle 2015-11-16 08:11
Huh....that's interesting! How do you guys find this stuff out? That could have been a very interesting storyline, I wonder why they didn't go through with that?
# AlyCat22 2015-11-16 16:12
Isn't it obvious? It's because I am a veritable fountain of knowledge when it comes to all things Supernatural!!! Seriously tho, it was in Supernatural. The Official Companion. Season One. ;) I just remembered it when the talk skewed to turning points in storylines.
# cheryl42 2015-11-16 18:26
I do remember hearing talk about that. I'm glad they didn't go that way. Although the season was so much more interesting when Sam was soulless than afterwards. The season kind of fell apart.
# BoGirle 2015-11-16 23:25
Yeah... soulless Sam was the badass of all badasses. I absolutely loved him! I could have seen the whole season be about that. And it would make sense that SS might work with Crowley or the Alpha Vamp seeing as how he was so black and white at that time. They copped out on SS.. it's too bad really because the season DID fall apart afterwards.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 13:32
The Mark was removed in S10 from Dean.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 14:24
Dean refuses to do human sacrifice.
Hmm, you must have missed Brothers Keeper, so allow me to catch you up. In that awesome episode, Dean arranged with Death to lure Sam to the bar so that Death could murder him, all for the greater good. He didn't really even flinch or argue when Death told Dean that he could have the honor of murdering Sam. This all sounds suspiciously like human sacrifice to me. Then at the last possible minute, and solely because Sam played the trump card of family pics, Dean changed his mind. Had Sam not abruptly stopped fighting Dean, there is no doubt that Dean would have beaten him to death. It was with great relish that he said "A fight, good." I think he loved the idea of a nice, slow, bloody beating, rather than a quick death. And THAT is why he chose the "small" hammer in Soul Survivor. (how big are your tools? they must be giant-sized if you consider that hammer small) So much more satisfying to smash Sam to death with a blunt object than to administer one quick thrust of the knife. For future reference, your arguments really lose ALL credibility when you have to distort the easily observable facts, like the size of the hammer and Dean's determination to kill Sam, to support your already dubious assertions.
# anonymousN 2015-11-15 15:08
Blame the writing not psg.

Hammer was small.....
No No that is the writing....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 15:23
You're on a roll!:D
# PsG 2015-11-15 11:31
Sam was being manipulated by the demons and eventualky released Lucifer. The demon blood lust was controlling him.
Ironically it isn't demon Dean or Marked Dean that released the Darkness. No it is human Sam who corrupted Lester into human sacrifice, leaves his human wife unprotected, engineers Metatron’s escaoe, Rowena’s power up, Crowley’s dehumanization. ... human Sam who keads, Cas, Bobby and Charlie astray, and human Sam who agrees to human sacrifice and tells them to human up so he won't lose his brother again when he runs off, black Eyed demon, to howl at the moon.

I am really fascinated that they switch the brothers role and yet it is still Sam that messes up. It gives me the feeling that Sam will run off to release Lucifer without thinking about the repercussions of thst because he has to be the one to ckean up his mess, and then and even more innocent people die.

Maybe that's the reason. Sam does these things because he has to be the one to do it. It's a matter of pride with him.

Whereas Dean does these things because he thinks he's a grunt that's going to die bloody anyway, and he believes that his only value is dying for others on a suicide mission. Humility. .

I don't know really why Sam is the cosmic f-up. Maybe he will keep breaking the world until Dean finally does kill him.

A knife is for killing. A hammer will break bone. Since Jensen directed it and shows Dean mulling over the knife them choosing the hammer... I assume he's going for a beat down. We were shown DD beating humans and the only human he killed was by a knife.

Seriously it's not some contest. The writers familiar with literary heroic archetypes developed characters that fit different ones for thematic reasons. They have been consistent with the characterizatio n since s 1. Blame Kripke.

The writing is not my fault and I can support my opinions with canon. Canon and logic are my friends.
# anonymousN 2015-11-15 14:30
A knife is for killing. A hammer will break bone.
I do not know ..Sam is doing much better at least he does not think a knife is for killing and hammer to break bones.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 15:03
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 15:03
oops, double post!
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 16:03

Dean used the claw side of the hammer and swung hard enough to embed it in concrete. I don't think he was looking to tap in a nail.
# njspnfan 2015-11-15 18:35
# njspnfan 2015-11-15 18:35
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 19:16
But E, it's such a TINY little hammer. Surely it wouldn't have hurt Sam TOO badly! :D
# anonymousN 2015-11-15 21:36
Oh I see.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 21:53
OMG!! That cracked me up. :D

I meant your tiny hammer post below.
# anonymousN 2015-11-16 07:44
That is okay even my replies somehow got mixed up (to Bogirl and Sam&Dean)Quote:
OMG!! That cracked me up. :D
oh and a disclaimer none of these gifs are mine .Thank you.
# anonymousN 2015-11-15 21:37
oops thank you for reminding
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 22:07
Yes, if that had been the hammer Dean was wielding I would agree that he wasn't trying to kill Sam, he was trying to tickle him affectionately! :)
# sylvia37 2015-11-15 17:03
Well thank God Castiel showed up to keep Dean from breaking the bones in Sam's head. I wish I could borrow the rose colored glasses you have. They're magic apparently if they can make Dean into a hero for taking on the MOC and somehow not being responsible for one damn thing that happened afterward.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 19:18
I wish I could borrow the rose colored glasses you have.

Don't you mean "Dean colored glasses"? I forget which poster coined that term, but I think it says it all.:)
# PsG 2015-11-15 11:57
Dean knew he was wrong to use Gadreel. It was the only way to save Sam in the SECONDS remaining . He went with it and suffered guilt throughout. We saw him mourn Kevin's death. We see Dean know he f'd up. See.. Dean is a very different character from Sam. He took the Mark on expected it to be penance. Yes. He mourned everyone he killed. The angst... remember. You hate Dean angst. Dean is a very different character. But the fact is Gadreel didn't start an Apocalypse. He was a character that wanted redemption only to be manipulated by Metatron. DEAN DID NOT AGREE TO KILL AN INNOCENT HUMAN AS A SACRIFICE TO DARK MAGIC TO SAVE DEAN. Apples vs watermelons.
Dean took the Mark to die and save lives doing it by killing Abaddon. Dean thought he was sacrificing himself. Self sacrifice vs human sacrifice. Not very comparable.

Gadreel in Sam vs releasing Metatron, risking Bobby, threatening an innocent psychic, getting Cas to break with heaven and risking Castiel’s life, causing Suzie's desk, consortium wirh a known evil killer witch, giving witch more power, destroying the detente wirh Crowley, risking Charlie, Charlie dying which set Dean off, Yada Yada Yada human sacrifice, using evil spellbook... WEEKS/MONTH S OF BAD DECISIONS BECAUSE SAM DIDN'T CARE ABOUT COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Sam says it himself. He didn’t care.

Apples and rotten watermelons.
It's a pretty ridiculous comparison
And it’s the best comparison you have.

It's the writing. Stop blaming me.
# Sharon 2015-11-15 13:02
Sam was blamed in season 8 for not going all out and saving Dean then when he does people like you put him down for that . Dean is lauded for doing all and everything to save Sam even if Sam wants it or not regardless of the consquences but Sam is wrong and amoral when he does the same.

I do blame the writing for not have the guts to be honest about Dean to focus on his pain rather than the person violated in season 9 and for Jeremy coming out with ludicrous statements of ''who the bigger monster is' at the begining of season 10' and I blame interpretation by some of what is seen because of that.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 13:41
CC no one is blaming you for the writing of the show. There are however different interpretations as you well know. You say the writing was you. Well the writing is just as clear to many others. Just because it doesn't jive with your personal interpretation doesn't mean it is wrong.

If you only take into consideration the arc of the MOC then I would have to agree with Dean. I too wish he could go back in time and shove it up Cain's ass.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 15:15
getting Cas to break with heaven and risking Castiel’s life,

That was an enormous part of Dean's story line in S4. Maybe it's time for a re-watch.

threatening an innocent psychic
Threats are one of Dean's bread and butter moves. Maybe you should re-watch Yellow Fever as well as other episodes too numerous to list.

consortium wirh a known evil killer witch
This pales in comparison to Dean consorting with Cain- the father of murder, creator of the Knights of Hell, and scourge of humanity. In fact, he didn't just consort with him, he took on the MOC, no questions asked, leading to ALL of the ensuing horrors. Even worse, by disturbing Cain, Dean reawakened Cain's dormant murderous urges which lead to the deaths of many innocents.

I could go on and on, point/counterpo int, but it's not worth it.
# JuliaG 2015-11-15 18:26
"Apples and rotten watermelons" Or "rotten apples and Juicy watermelons". See? It's all about interpretation of canon and where our sympathies lie. Let me ask you, why do you come here? People actually like Sam on this site, and your opinions are extreme enough to make me think that you enjoy putting oil on the fire. For example, you can't possibly think that Dean didn't want to kill Sam because he chose a hammer instead of a knife. It doesn't make any sense. And taking the Mark wasn't penance. It was compounding the Gadreel mistake with another, greater one. When Sam released Lucifer, he thought he would die killing Lillith. He was going to sacrifice himself for the greater good and make up his failures. Doesn't that excuse Sam the way you excuse Dean for taking the MOC?
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 19:55
Yes, it's very troll like isn't it?
# PsG 2015-11-15 20:05
Dean kills with a knife not a hammer. Dean has never killed with a hammer. Canon luv. The fact that Jensen had Dean study the knife and put it down tells me everything and it should tell anyone anything unless they are looking for things to hold against the character, in my opinion.

As to Dean’s psychological state. That was well articulated in the beautiful sequence that showed s his grief over Kevin and guilt over lying to Sam. He was alone drinking and wanted to do one good thing before dying. Typical Dean. So typical that Crowley was able to steer hI'm to the Mark as the only way to kill Abaddon. Crowley is watching the show. Crowley cert knew that killing Oskar was a horrible act... and he's a demon.
By the way, trolls do not back up everything they day with canon. Trolls attack people, just like you did. No apologies necessary. I have learned it is what some people on this site do when confronted with actual canon.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 20:55
Dean kills with a knife not a hammer. Dean has never killed with a hammer. Canon luv.
It actually blows my mind that you don't realize the absurdity of this statement. Taken to its logical conclusion, your assertion means that any time any character does something at all differently than he did it on previous occasions, it violates canon so must be interpreted/han d-waved away as though it didn't happen. Wow, those really are Dean colored glasses. Even the most ardent Dean fan, indeed any fan who is lucid, realized that Demon Dean was trying to kill Sam. Trying with quite a bit of enthusiasm, in fact. But if that's the way you view the show, then you should also believe that Sam would never have sanctioned Oskar's sacrifice. Indeed, he wasn't there when it happened so it's impossible to say what he would have done had he been there. But since Sam has NEVER BEFORE committed a human sacrifice, by your reasoning he never would have done so in this instance, as that would clearly violate canon.

Just out of curiosity, do you acknowledge that Dean took on the MOC of his own free will, or by some tortured logic is your position that Crowley or Cain forced it on him? I only ask because Dean had never before taken on an ancient, evil mark, (canon, luv) so by your logic regarding the hammer, he most certainly would not have taken on the MOC. I think what makes TV shows so interesting is that the characters actually do NEW and DIFFERENT things all the time. That's why they make new episodes instead of just making a few episodes and then rerunning them endlessly.
# anonymousN 2015-11-15 21:43
It actually blows my mind that you don't realize the absurdity of this statement.
Fire extinguisher, umbrella ,chair...are not used for murder...knife is used for murder.Fire extinguisher is used to extinguish fire (for some it may be used to break bones)...Umbrel la (dont know whether it will break bones but there it is) , Chair (definitely breaks bones) ...those are their uses ...No really.
So since they break bones they only wanted to break bones or maybe sit on it and in the process of sitting on out they murdered.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 21:58
Losing battle S&D. Her last post kind of says it all. Either she really does believe what she says or she is just saying this stuff to make the mice run. Either way it seems best to back away from the....well you know.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-11-15 22:16
You're right Cheryl. I know I shouldn't feed the you-know-what. But as her posts become increasingly ludicrous, I find it entertaining to poke holes in her logic (and I use the term "logic" VERY loosely). Although it is somewhat like shooting fish in a barrel so I will indeed back away.:)
# BoGirle 2015-11-15 15:52
I noticed something interesting. We've had five Amara's so far... Have you noticed that they've all worn a variation on the color pink? Baby Amara was in pale pink, Little Girl Amara was in rose pink, Tween Amara in a burgundy color, Teen Amara's dress is such a deep shade of dark rose that it's nearly brown and wasn't adult Amara wearing black? I just though the progression in the deepening of the color of her dress seemed quite deliberate and one more indication of her development into the adult Amara we first saw. I wonder if we'll get another version before the final version or if the current actress will last a few more episodes? I think whatever development she's going through will be reached by mid-season and then things will ramp up from there.
# PSG 2015-11-15 19:36
I did watch my Brother's, Keeper all of the way through to the end Dean sacrificed no one. In fact he protected his brother from a supernatural entity that wanted him dead.
However Team Cure Dean No Matter What the Cost did... and on Sam’s say so. My good he even said get it over with.
Carver repeated Sam’s reluctant hero arc and tragic hero arc where he goes Dark and does Dark things. The difference being that there was no supernatural crutch; Sam was completely responsible for his actions. And, I think Sam will have to work hard for redemption. It won't be just another BDH moment.
All the major beats were there. It looks, like he will even release Lucifer again in addition to the Darkness. And he announced it in the season 8 premiere. And once again Dean tried to stop him and pulled a huge save of Sam’s life.
I do appear to be watching a different show one in which dark magic and human sacrifice for personal gain is a clear no no. There are some lines that should never be crossed.
no. There are some lines tha
# PsG 2015-11-15 19:57
Crazy, emotional, desperate season 3 Sammy is the mirror for season 10 Sam. Dabb even had flamingos in the bar where Dean and Sam met, a reference to Mystery Spot. The show I am watching has great subtext.
# PsG 2015-11-15 21:08
Poor Jensen. So nuanced in his direction and so few notice. Canon. Demon Dean only killed Demons. Lester was his human kill and he questioned him to ensure he was damned before killing him and, saving the wife. No human kills.

MoC Dean. Killed a bunch of men who were trying to kill him and Randy a child pimp. Then he killed a bunch of murdering, dark magic using Frankenstein monsters. Oh my.

Of course Dean took the Mark on his own and he had to bear it without the support of his family because they were off doing horrible things to save him when he wasn’t in any danger of dying and he hadn't lost control.

The Mark which wasn't a bad thing at all. A lock and key made by God to imprison his Sister. We don’t even know exactly what the residual affect of the Darkness was. Lucifer always had hubris. Cain as crazy after killing his brother. Marked Dean hunted.
Yes. Taking that on is all on Dean.

Dean’s an anti-hero. An anti-hero by definition is not perfect. They are dirty around the edges and don't always do things nicely or cleanly. They do stick to their moral code however. Even as a demon Dean hunted. He wasn't bad or evil just dirtier, darker. Dean is never not dark. The Mark enhanced it just as it enhanced his life by making him supernatural, the most boring demon on the planet.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-15 21:51
I always saw DemonDeans second thought and going for the hammer as chilling. As in going for the tool that would give him more pleasure in beating someone to death. DemonDean did say 'And what I'm going to do to you Sammy...Well that ain't gonna be mercy either.' To me DemonDean had every intention of killing Sam. That hammer would have done a lot more than part Sams hair. He told Sam to just let him go, he wouldn't bother him and instead of setting him free he tortured him with the blood cure. After that all bets were off. Sam went right to the top of DemonDeans shit list and once he got free he wasn't going to leave - 'not till I find you!' Remember the whole 'doing all I can not to come over there and rip your throat out...with my teeth. And I don't think he was looking for a partner for chess. DemonDean was pissed because Sam was trying to cure him as well as the agony he had to endure because of it. and as he said he had 'just enough demon left in me that killing you ain't no choice at all.
# PsG 2015-11-15 22:08
Hey Alycat! And yet we see boring old Demon Dean beating up annoying humans, even Cole, and killing demons and proto-demon Lester. He killed no humans. Killing Sam would be breaking the pattern. Threatening to kill him to make him suffer psychologicaly and, beating him within an inch of
his life and leaving him in pain is more Demon Dean’s style. Did anyone else see the cat and mouse chase with Dean taunting Sam. Psychological torture just like he used on Cole.
# AlyCat22 2015-11-16 05:15
Yes but in Sam's case in the bunker I had no doubt he could kill Sam. Whether or not he would, who knows. Did he intentionally miss with that swing of the hammer? Possibly. But when Sam acquiesced and wouldn't kill DemonDean, his eyes did turn black and he lunged at him. It took Cas as a fully charged angel to hold him back. I'd like to think in Sam's case DemonDean was just psychologically torturing Sam (and he did a good bit of that too) but that look when he told Sam he was 'doing all he could not to come over and rip your throat out with my teeth'? That made me shiver and my name's not Sammy! Maybe since DemonDean was loose and knew he could escape he would've just given Sam a beat down (hopefully putting down the hammer first!) and left, but on the other hand he knew Sam would just try again. Maybe he was thinking of something more permanent. DemonDean had started to go pretty dark by that point. Accepting that he was a demon and rejecting his human side. This would be a great Con question!!! Oh Jensennnnnn!!!!
# PsG 2015-11-15 22:08
Hey Alycat! And yet we see boring old Demon Dean beating up annoying humans, even Cole, and killing demons and proto-demon Lester. He killed no humans. Killing Sam would be breaking the pattern. Threatening to kill him to make him suffer psychologicaly and, beating him within an inch of
his life and leaving him in pain is more Demon Dean’s style. Did anyone else see the cat and mouse chase with Dean taunting Sam. Psychological torture just like he used on Cole.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 23:30
It certainly is a good thing Sam was able to duck his "taunting" in the nick of time.
# LEAH 2015-11-15 23:27
I agree Alycat, it was chilling! I felt DD went for the head bashing tool for the greatest satisfaction. My opinion is that if Dean had just wanted to give Sam a "beat down" why not use his fists? Makes no sense to me he used a hammer because it was gentler.
# Stephanie 2015-11-15 22:51
So.. at the end when Amara was walking down the street with a crowd of people, did anybody else expect her to spin around and throw her beret in the air? (or am I just showing my age?) :)
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 23:28
:D That is very funny. Now that you mention it....

# AlyCat22 2015-11-16 05:25
"Who can turn the world on with a smile.... take a nothing day and suddenly make it all seem worthwhile... well it's you girl and you should know it, with eve- what? Oh God no! Please don't! What do you want!? PLEAS- *man now confused, unaware of what just happened to him* I'm sorry, what was I saying?"

*Amara keeps on walking down the street*

"Psssttt! The beret! The beret Amara, throw the beret!!!"

Now this is a Nick at Night rerun I'd like to see!!!
# PsG 2015-11-15 22:52
I support everything I say with canon
You’re attacking me because there isn't canon to support your assertations.
# cheryl42 2015-11-15 23:39
CC no one is attacking you. We may be having a little fun at your expense but surely you must realize if you come to a Sam friendly site with extreme bias for the other brother (the other brother who doesn't seem to hold the same beliefs that you do). You can't really be surprised by the response.

And believe it or not your "canon" doesn't really mean anything to anyone except to you. Just like everyone who watches the show. We all have our own interpretations .
# BoGirle 2015-11-16 06:25
Its interesting to me that in all these assertions that Dean "never killed a human" that everyone is forgetting about Repo Man's Jeffrey. He was human and Dean killed him. Oh, and that's canon too.
# njspnfan 2015-11-16 08:35
umm.... didn't Dean kill a roomful of humans in 10.09 The Things We Left Behind?
# AlyCat22 2015-11-16 09:05
You mean the humans that blindsided him by smashing a bottle over his head, knocking him to the ground, kicking him (I believe in the head) and then crowding around him with weapons drawn. The ones he warned not to push it (because of the MOC) and they didn't listen? The rapist and his scumbag wannabes? It was self defense. Overkill because of the MOC? Probably. Even Dean said afterwards that it was a massacre. I'm not crying over the loss of these upstanding pillars of the community anymore than I would if it had been Sammy who did it. Go pussycat, kill, kill.
# percysowner 2015-11-16 10:03
First I disagree that it was fine for Dean to kill these people. However, since the response was directed at the statement that Dean "never killed a human" which is canonically untrue. Frankly Dean also killed the young Stein brother who was begging for his life, and who hadn't attacked Dean in any way, shape or form. It's great to SAY Dean is always right in his kills, while Sam is always wrong (the argument that is being made above, although not necessarily by you), but if people are going to state that their view point is supported by canon and anyone who disagrees is ignoring canon, then they shouldn't ignore CANON. Dean has killed humans. With the massacre he killed humans who didn't attack him (Randy, the young brother Stein), no matter how wrong they were morally. Stating that Sam needs redemption because he has killed humans while Dean needs none because he has not is a huge double standard and flat out contradicted by canon. I know you are not the major proponent of the Sam is the only one who needs redemption line of argument, but you are responding to the fact being used in that argument.
# njspnfan 2015-11-16 10:48
ok, so you and PsG are making justifications/ excuses for Dean killing everyone in the room. That was NOT PsG's point; she categorically stated that Dean never killed another human. PsG's statement was incorrect. This is not a cable news network; if you repeat the same thing over and over again, it does not make it true.
# anonymousN 2015-11-16 09:34
# njspnfan 2015-11-16 12:32
# AlyCat22 2015-11-16 08:56
Dean shot Jeffrey while he had a knife and was going in for the attack. A justifiable kill because he was armed. Jeffrey was also a serial killer, far from an innocent. Personally I would have killed him for brutally murdering that poor sweet little puppy. They don't like to kill humans but if their lives are in danger or they are threatened they have every right to protect themselves. Didn't Sam kill one of the Bender boys back in Season 1 while escaping with the Sheriff? I know she killed Pa. I don't see why it's such a big deal if its self defense. Just because they are Hunters they don't get the right to defend themselves? If you are stupid enough to try and take either brother on, well then it sucks to be you. Dean "killed" that crazy Pennywhistle guy by using his magic against him. I'm sure there are other instances where either one has that I can't think of at the moment. But as far as a human sacrifice for a spell? Dean has never done that.
# BoGirle 2015-11-16 09:53
He killed no humans
I'm not refuting the justification of his actions. Dean was right to kill Jeffrey, he pretty much had no choice. I'm just refuting this specific claim (not your claim BTW) that Dean has not ever killed a human, which is simply not true. Jeffrey was human, flawed and crazy but undeniably human and Dean was not compromised when he killed Jeffrey, he was his own self. Humans, no matter how flawed used to be off limits; as evidenced by the argument over Max WAAAAAY back in season 1. Dean also killed all those drug dealers etc, and that guy from Plucky's. Both brothers have, on occasion killed humans, especially lately. It's not a nice quality in either brother IMO. And it's too bad Amy isn't allowed the same argument as Dean gets on a regular basis to defend why she was killing humans. It's either right for everyone or wrong for everyone. But Dean and Dean's friends (Benny) seem to get a pass when everyone else doesn't.

And as far as human sacrifice as a spell, neither has Sam. Sam knew absolutely noting about Oscar (didn't even know he existed) or what the spell they were working on entailed, he only knew that they were working on it and he asked to be kept informed. Who knows, if Dean hadn't been trying to kill Sam, maybe Cas could have let him know about Oscar. Maybe Oscar's death would have been a line Sam was not willing to cross not even for Dean. We'll never know I guess. I am just opposed to handwaving away issues for Dean as though it's different when he does them than when other characters do the same.
# njspnfan 2015-11-16 10:49
again, you are providing justification/e xcuses for Dean's action, just as others on this pointless conversation are providing justification/e xcuses for Sam's actions. The point remains, PsG categorically stated that Dean never killed humans. PsG was wrong.... moving on.
# cheryl42 2015-11-16 13:59
Ha...good luck with that. No one loves to argue plot points from 7 years ago more than Supernatural fans. What cracks me up is that if you ask the J's, the writers, producers or anyone associated with the show they couldn't resolve all these arguments either. They truly have moved on.
# Sharon 2015-11-16 02:25
So have other people and they have done so.
And to be honest your ''canon'' is seen through a certain lens which is your choice but it is not the same one others look through .
# PSG 2015-11-16 10:37
Then why is, Sam taking blame for himself. Telling both Dean and God he is to blame. Why is Sam suddenly trying to be a better hunter. It's a redemption arc that's why.
The writers use classic epic structure for the story. Sam has been cast as the reluctant hero, s 1 and s 8) and the flawed tragic heto who ignores the truth and who is out of balance. Sam has hubris in the classic sense and he makes mistakes when he is overly emotional, ie. Out of balance. Kripke/Gamble messed up the redemption arc. Carver is repeating it but actually having Dam work for redemption.

Dean is a different type of hero. He is an anti-hero/ knight errant. He will never have a reluctant hero arc or tragic fall because he is inherently dark yet always does good. His struggle is self worth and making sure he doesn't stray too far over the line when hunting.
Note how Dean is tougher than Dam, enjoys the blood and violence yet never makes a big enough mistake to release a global Apocalypse.
His redemption is his life's work. Think John Constantine. Sometimes this hero becomes too much of a killer and has to be pulled back.
.Think Arrow.

They are very different types of literary heroes.

Don't they teach literature anymore.
# Sharon 2015-11-16 11:05
But that is not the point is it throwing up a interpretation of literary heroes means little. It does not change the fact that Dean.s actions from having Sam possessed to getting the MOC resulted in consquences of his making not Sam,s but Dean,s. Therefore being on a redemption arc is right for the character not just to put it on Sam to redeem because he is Sam and therefore must just be wrong while Dean just carry,s on the same way.

Yes Sam blamed himself because that is what he does but his arc does not mean Dean should just walk away from the mess he clearly had a hand in and heavily contributed too. It is not rocket science .
# PSG 2015-11-16 10:09
The only human Demon Dean killed was Lester who was an effective proto-demon and wife killer.
He threatened to kill Cole in Black yet beat him silly when he met him. I don't think the intent was to kill Sam.
Sam Clearly knows a sacrifice is required for the spell. He tells them to get it done. It's, a parallel moment to the nurse in season 4. It's intended to be the pivotal act of darkness in Sam’s slide downward. The audience was supposed to be horrified. I was. Others were. Misha was. At least Cas questions the act.
Now Sam feels guilt for the effects of Amara and is trying to minimize human loss. He's also trying to be better man. He not only tells Dean he is to blame, he tells God. This sets up a, redemption arc for Sam.

This is what should havr hapoened in season 5. We should have seen Dam committed to saving lives as a reactuon to the death his actions caused. You may
Not believe Sam needs redemption. A lot of fans, do. The writers fo. Sam himself does.

A redemption arc will mean POV. Rejoice.

What’s interesting to me is that they'very set up yet another season 4 mirror. Dean is aligned with Amara. Same is being contacted by Lucifer. Being Sam he will run off on his own to ftee Lucifer. Dean will think it's too risky because Lucifer is patently evil. He is also bound to Amara via the Mark, sympathetic to a sibling betrayed by the other and no friend to God and his archangels.
# cheryl42 2015-11-16 10:17
So you see Sam as the hero in this story. Since he is the one who freed the wronged Amara and set up the liaison with Dean to save humanity from a God who has created a flawed and tragic mankind. Go Sam!

According the J's at Pascon we will find out who Sam is talking to after the episode directed by Richard Speight "Just My Imagination". I like the fact that mysteries are being set up and answered or put to rest so quickly this season.
# Sharon 2015-11-16 10:38
And then the wronged Amara and Dean can ride off into the sunset on a blazing white horse and people will sing songs about them for years to come.

I can see it now .
# PsG 2015-11-16 10:24
Percy, my point was DDean never killed a human except Kester who was a proto-demon and unrepentant wife killer. There was no reason to assume he would kill Sam because we had never seen him behave thst way or be our of control. Violenice towards humans yes. Killing no.

As a human with the Mark Dean killed a room of armed men intent on atta king and probably killing him. He warned them not to do it. He may have been unconscious when it hapoened. Randy wasn't armed , just a child pimp Fagen. We saw Dean angst and, feel guilt. He didn’t want it to happen again.

He killed the entire Styne family including a kid that just chopped up a human being alive. The kid wasn't inmocent. The Stynes were dark magic users, pastiched Frankenstein monsters and unrepentant killers. They were exactly what hunters hunt or have you missed the fact that witches are human.

Human sacrifice, the killing of an innocent human being to complete a black magic spell for personal gain is EVIL. Again the practictioners would be
something that hunters hunt to save innocents.
When witches kill they are hunted.

No hunter is squeaky clean. They hunt and kill as a way of life. There is a profound difference from hunting and sacrifice.

Team Sam performed human sacrifice which Sam ordered them to do.. Dean refused to sacrifice Sam. Do you seriously not understand the juxtaposition of these two events in the finale. They wrote Sam as the truly dark one all season. Human Sam behaved like a demon whereas demon Dean behaved like a rowdy human. Human Sam engineered dark magic utilising human sacrifice. So-called killer Dean refused to sacrifice Sam
Poor Carver. He tries so hard all season with the subtext and the text and the mirrors and the one character engineering demon deals and human sacrifice and the other refusing to behave like a demon or do human sacrifice.
# JuliaG 2015-11-16 13:59
Question: During the Finale last year, what do you think would have happened if Sam hadn't shown Dean the family pictures seconds before Dean was going to kill him? The human sacrifice of his own brother to deal with the MOC he took freely. That was made pretty clear.

I don't think that anyone disputes the fact that Sam is on a redemption arc. My problem is that Dean did many bad things during the last 2 seasons and should redeem himself too.
# PsG 2015-11-16 10:41
Lol. I prefer to think that the story will end Bond style with sexy times. No white horse required because Dean has his black sedan.
# Sharon 2015-11-16 10:48
I would prefer it that Dean would not connect to Amara over 'betrayal' he lost that card when he did what he did to Sam in season 9 if they want to use the Mark then fine but not 'betrayal'.

The whole Amara as the wronged sibling does not entirely sit comfortable with me anyway.