The words “Season Eleven” just about says it all (insert your own “This one goes to 11" joke here).  In one way you’re just shocked that your favorite show is still on the air and that you have something to look forward to on your Wednesdays each week.  On the flip side, the show isn’t what it used to be and the MOTW storytelling and over-sweeping arcs can get tiresome at times.  It’s a “been there, done that” sort of thing.  Luckily, “Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire” brought something to the table we haven’t seen in a while.  It turned out to be an enjoyable, yet familiar hour. 

Was the episode a barnburner?  No.  Was it better than “We Need to Talk About Kevin?”  Yes.  Was it better than “I Think I’m Gonna Like it Here?”  Oh yes.  Was it better than “Black?”  Light years yes. 

It felt like a “Supernatural” episode to me for starters.  The story flowed well and I never lost interest.   The dialogue was great (no one does dialogue better than Carver).  There were light moments.  The side stories didn’t dominate or distract too much from the main action yet they were enjoyable as well.  I think ultimately though, this episode kicked off the season with a premise of which we all can get onboard.   It’s everything I’ve felt that’s been missing in this show for a while now.  “Hunting Things” is only half the bumper sticker.   We need that other half. 

The Winchester Boys and Philosophical Bumper Stickers

But there was way more to this story than Sam and Dean sharing ideologies in a tense lockdown situation.  Tone is everything.  No matter how much the Winchesters were back and willing to fight, we were constantly reminded what a dark situation they truly face.  It was all done through show, don’t tell.  I love show, don’t tell.  I want to hold onto it and curl up with it at night.  Carver proved there is a way to unfold a mythological story through demonstration, not dialogue.  It starts with seeing exactly what happened to both Sam and Dean in that cloud of dark.  Sam was knocked unconscious after Dean disappears, taken by Amara to a field of dark swirling clouds.  The visual is stunning.  He’s surrounded by evil, yet Dean is protected.  Their conversation plays out through the episode, to slowly feed us information, so not to overwhelm with us a dialogue heavy scene.  It’s ideal, and it keeps the even, very eerie tone in the entire episode.

The episode connected on an emotional level, telling whole stories through emotional reactions, which is honestly a rare feat with a show this old.  Too many other lesser skilled writers (I’m not naming names) fail to bring that out on the page.  Carver is eloquent, as well as director Robert Singer, in drawing out those tender moments at just the right time.  I felt instantly connected to new dad Mike and felt awful over his demise.  I loved him taking that moment to hold and love that child while telling his story, knowing full well that his end was coming.  He made sure that he chose to right person to care for her.  I also loved the return of sympathetic Sam and Dean, taking in every word with tender heartbreak of this very tragic situation.  It’s facial acting and no two do it better.  I swear somewhere down the road this show forgot that (probably lost in the sensationalized stories and dialogue-heavy exposition). 

One extraordinary feat that happened too was I felt the suspense!   I was on the edge of my seat when Sam was checking out the hospital after they arrived.   He stumbled upon black throat guy pounding away at the door, tensely hiding from his view.  Sam wouldn’t kill him though.  He’s decided to ask questions first and then shoot later.  I also jumped during that scene in the dark supply closet, waiting for the bad guys to bust in.  No, I didn’t expect someone to jump out from behind.  Well done! 

12

Jenna:  “This job is supposed to be saving people.” 
Dean:  Sounds better on paper, doesn’t it? 


On the flip side, Dean has gone into survival mode.  If there’s ever been a piece of dialogue to show the two different directions these brothers have gone, this is THE one.  (it’s a long conversation, but it’s very important!)

Sam:  I get it.  I do.  We’re going to save that baby, okay, and we’re gonna find Cas and we’re gonna stop the Darkness.  
Dean:  What are we talking about?
Sam:  The plan. 
Dean:  We have a plan.  It’s the same plan is it’s always been.  In order to get out we go through. 
Sam:  And?  How has that been working for us?
Dean:  We can’t save Cas, we’re stuck in a hospital.  Just like I can’t strap on in a time machine, go back and tell Cain to shove that Mark up his ass or stop you from releasing the darkness.  Now have we made mistakes?  Yes, Hell yes.  And we can analyze each and every one of them over a couple of frostys when we’re old and farting sawdust and OUT OF THIS ROOM!  Right now all I can do is I can gear up, I can head out, I can save that freaking baby, which is exactly what I’m gonna do.
Sam:  When did we forget how to do this?
Dean:  What?
Sam:  Dean, if we don’t change, right now, all our crap is just going to keep repeating itself. 
Dean:  I don’t even…what?
Sam:  This…this kill first question later.  What happened to us?  Hunting things, we’re good at that, sure, we’re great at that, but it’s only half the bumper sticker man.
Dean:  Sam, I’m trying to save that baby. 
Sam:  And what about the others out there?
Dean:  You mean the ones that are trying to kill us?
Sam:  The ones that are sick, the ones that are dying.    
Dean:  Yeah, who won’t rest until they’ve infected us all. 
Sam:  So we just forget about a cure?
Dean:  What cure?  Jenna’s cure?  (Holds up shotgun)
Sam:  There’s always a cure.  You just have to want to find it.
Dean:  Yeah, how are you going to find it if you’re dead.  (Turns around).  And around and around we go. 
Sam:  Saving people means all of the people Dean, not just that baby, not just each other.  I unleashed a force on this world that could destroy it to save you.
Dean:  I told you not to.  
Sam:  I would do it again, in a second, I would do it again.  And that is what I’m talking about.  This isn’t on you.  It is on us.  We have to change.  
Dean:  What are you thinking?
Sam:  Get Jenna to the car, get her and the baby somewhere safe.

Dean:  Without a shot.  And what are we gonna do with those things on our tail. 
Sam:  They won’t be on your tail.  

This discussion raises some very good questions.  For one, I’m thrilled to see this talk happen.  I wasn’t a pure fan of the whole idea that Sam and Dean in the course of saving each other over the last two seasons put other people’s lives above their own, intentionally or not.  But how hypocritical is it of Sam to start changing after the damage has been done?  Why is Sam all of a sudden feeling the guilt of harming people when he was so willing to risk everything to save people before?  Because Sam is not a guy for regrets, and neither is Dean.  That doesn’t fix anything.  He did say he would do it again in a second.  The mess is made, it’s time to clean it up.  I think this time though, Sam is emotionally exhausted.  He felt like in this episode he was always on the brink of tears.  He’s at his wits end and I’m not sure if he can take at this point another setback, and he’s facing a big one!   I’m sure he’ll find a way though.  This is Sam freaking Winchester.

05

Dean also backed Sam’s play after this talk.  Was Dean wrong to go into survival mode initially?  Jenna was following Sam’s philosophy that these people should be saved.  But Dean did raise a good point, how can you save people if you’re dead?  “And round and round we go.”  This seems to be the catch 22 of the Winchester’s lives.  I’d like to see Dean get out of survival mode and see the bigger picture, but maybe not quite to the degree of Sam who was more willing to sacrifice himself this go around.  There has to be a balance between the two, and that balance is the missing half of that proverbial bumper sticker. 

Also, if Sam thinks they should start changing now, then why did he lie to Dean when he called?  Why didn’t he tell him that something was wrong?  Because he knew that Dean would forget about saving the baby and come after him.  But is the lie really changing things?  Dean after all didn’t come forward with the info about his conversation with Amara.  I would think that Dean would have a better reason to tell the truth than Sam.  Was it really Dean just remembering things as they went?  I’d buy into that explanation.  No matter what, some things don’t change with these Winchesters.  Lying to each other is one of them.

As for all the other details, the truth is Jeremy Carver’s scripts don’t do much with hidden clues or making one thing seem like something else.  What you see for the most part can be taken at face value.  Take Sam for instance.  He wasn’t attacked by the black neck people (rabids?) because he was already infected.  There’s nothing more to it than that.  Sam knew it, which is why he sat on the floor of that supply closet devastated.  He knew what was going on inside of him.  He took their retreat as the very bad sign it was, that hesitant look in the mirror only being the final confirmation.  Having hours to live is definitely a trial for Sam and that’s why I can’t wait to see how next week plays out. 

Also, the mark on the baby, I took that to be that’s the woman in the clouds.  After all, the mark is the same.  Amara is the Darkness.  The baby is evil.  Castiel put it best, “The Darkness is a woman?”  Her words with Dean indicated that she doesn’t know anything about earth and creation from the times of the Book of Genesis on.  She never heard of Death and he was pretty damned old.  So, it does seem fitting she would start her new life, her re-creation, as a baby.  Am I disappointed that The Darkness can be traced to one being?  I’m not sure yet.  I like the idea better than the disastrous “Anyone can be a Leviathan” plot from season seven, but at the same time, what could this one being do that’s so awful that she could only be contained by God and his archangels?  I’m underwhelmed so far but willing to give it a chance. What is this Darkness really?  TBD. 

01

I even liked the B stories.  For one, Castiel is such a stoic figure.  To see him so bewildered, so emotional, so desperate and lost, it was a nice change of pace.  It proves too that when it comes to those heart tugging moments, Misha Collins can also knock it out of the park.  Castiel surrendered himself to other angels rather than risk hurting others.  It’s the noble Castiel we know and love, and boy is he going to pay dearly.  At least he managed to call Sam and Dean so they could all get on the same page before he surrendered to Heaven’s goons.  I just hope Andrew Dabb isn’t a fan of Deliverance

I’m sorry, but I laughed at Crowley.  It was juvenile, unnecessary, and I laughed anyway.  It was a very clever Crowley thing to do to escape via red smoke down the drain just before Castiel stabbed him.  I loved the woman he possessed.  She did the perfect Crowley!  Just saying the word “King!” was dead on.  I thought going through with the orgy was hilarious, and such a Crowley thing to do.  I even laughed at the menopause comment.  I won’t read into anymore than that.  It was having a little fun in a dire situation.  

However, I REALLY loved how noise is coming from the cage.  You know it’s Lucifer.  Death said it all, Lucifer was the original holder of the Mark.  I wonder what he has to say and how he’ll get to say it. 

04

Other Thoughts

A minor quibble, I don’t care for the title card too much.  It looks like a slightly jazzed up version of season one.  It’s pretty tame.  Is it a statement that we’re back to basics?  I hope not. 

S11titlecard

This episode looks like it was shot with the exact set from “Jus in Bello.”  I’ll have to consult my locations expert, Bardicvoice, and see if that episode was filmed in the studio or onsite somewhere. 

I didn’t miss Rowena this episode.  There was just too much going on and no room for her.  At least Castiel reminded us that she is at large with The Book of the Damned and the Codex.  Just in case we forgot. 

Overall grade, a B+.  All that matters is the premise leaves me wanting more.  I haven’t said that in several season openers.  Thank you Mr. Carver.  Bring on next week!

Comments  

PsG
# PsG 2015-10-08 20:28
I am excited too.

I think Dean isn’t himself. I think Amara sent him to Superior, to the hospital to save that baby. That’s the reason for his brutal focus. His job was save the baby, not the family business.

I think the conversation is ongoing. He's in thrall and confused. He's not quite Dean.

I agree that Sam us really emotional.

I thought the orgy was a sign that Crowley is still partly human and thus his priorities are skewed. Maybe Anna Is going through perimenopause now and Carver is living it. I Don't know. I am very late to that bus.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-08 20:30
The irony of course is that Sam risked the world to save Dean from becoming that dark thing again and besides unmaking creation, Dean will likely get a lit darker before he takes the light back for himself.
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-08 21:08
SPOILER
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-08 23:26
Jen that is a pretty big spoiler. You may want to tag it for those who don't want to be spoiled or move it to the discussion page where it was posted earlier today.
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-09 01:55
SO SORRY SECOND TIME I DONE THAT. I get excited then I get mixed up where to stick it - I will move it SORRY AGAIN
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-08 21:24
I overall thought this was a great episode and can't wait to see pt 2. I like how things were set up and agree that less dialogue was much better. It was tense and exciting. I for one am so glad they are re-examining their past methods and it was very refreshing to have Dean pause, listen and agree to go with Sam's roll on this. They have been so focused on hunting and surviving for so long that it was clear that the "people" were often down low on the priority list. How many times lately did they even mention the "people" that were possessed or infected in a way that was beyond their control (the human victims)? They just blast their way through them. I don't think these guys are going to change over night. Their ingrained habit of keeping something from the other in a misguided effort to protect the other, not cause worry, or because they are doing something they aren't proud of, might not ever change. But I hope it does gradually because as Sam said 'hows that working out?'

The orgy scene was just distasteful to me. Sorry. I saw no humor at all. 3 of the 4 characters were straight out of Three's Company school of sit com humor. The actress who played Crowley's vessel was good though. So Crowley got his rocks off and then butchered 3 people. Just so not funny to me. Nor was the slow way the camera panned over their naked bodies. Those were people no matter how silly they were made out to be. I want evilish sly Crowley back but that scene just left a sour taste in my mouth, instantly. He basically assaulted and murdered 3 people. Maybe 4. It wasn't a fun frolic in my mind.

I am hopeful that this season will live up to the promise I saw in the finale. Thanks Alice for the review I am mostly in agreement with your take.:)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-08 23:17
Yes I agree that conversation between Sam and Dean has been a long time coming. I hope it is the beginning of many that need to happen. I was one of my favorite moments. Every moment that focused on Sam and Dean worked for me.

I agree that Sam didn't tell Dean about being infected because he knew what Dean would do. I am not sure why Dean didn't tell Sam what the D was saying to him. My first impression was that Dean was slowly remembering the events in the black cloud. He was laser focused on saving the baby. I felt that was the mission the D put Dean on. Save the baby so she could be re born.

I agree with Leah the orgy scene didn't work for me. Not because of the ick factor so much as it again reduces Crowley to a joke.

Cas giving himself up to the angels. Did he think that was going to go well? Hopefully they can cure him of the attack dog spell. The brothers are going to need a fully powered angel.

I saw this tag line elsewhere and it should go on the bumper sticker.

Saving people, hunting things, hiding things.

John taught Sam and Dean well. Hiding things may always be a part of who they are. But the first phrase on the bumper sticker is "Saving People". That should be their #1 priority.

I did enjoy this season premiere. With Carver as the sole show runner now it will be interesting to see if the season flows differently than it has in the past few years.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-09 13:26
"sole" show runner? Er, did I miss something? Was there two?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-09 13:50
Robert Singer, just like with Kripke and Gamble has been the nuts and bolts behind the scenes since S1. He has stepped down and now Carver is the only name in the closing credits. It's his show now with Singer as Executive Consultant. Which is what EK is right now. Not so much hands on.
Taz
# Taz 2015-10-09 00:34
i agree about the orgy scene, Leah; I suppose it was meant to be funny while reminding us of how dangerous Crowley is, but, as you say Cheryl, it reduced the King of Hell to a joke. Over recent seasons, this once formidable, fascinating villain has been transformed into a clownish/morose Vice figure, as silly as he is pathetic. Not only does the denigration of Crowley waste the superb talents of MS, it deprives SN of the sense of genuine menace a horror show needs to succeed. Camp doesn't build suspense or elicit fear. Evil does.
Shante
# Shante 2015-10-09 08:28
hi Alice, amen to everything, except my grade is a bit higher A+, going again episode to episode to see how each ep turns out, this is a strong start to this season! let's see how next week goes. just 2 ?,, what exactly is the title card, just a jazzed up version of season 1's title card really? no special effect or cool effects just that?
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2015-10-09 11:59
Perhaps the title card was meant to convey the "darkness" or the "nothingness" that it represents? It certainly gives me no clue as to the story to come. Intentional? Maybe.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-09 08:31
Liked this one; reserving final judgement till part 2 airs next week.

As far as Sam and Dean, I don't think Dean is withholding anything from Sam; he's still processing/reme mbering what happened in the Darkness cloud. Dean's fragmented conversations with the Hello Darkness My Old Friend woman sounded awfully similar to what Lucifer told Sam in S5, that he would never harm him.

As far as Sam being infected, telling Dean would have only caused Dean to race off to try to save Sam, leaving the baby at risk so I understand why he didn't say anything. And besides, Sam has a limited shelf life at this point; he either finds a cure or he dies.

And I, for one, was happy that Sam finally brought up the fact that the brothers have gotten very good at hunting things part of the equation but have kind of sucked at saving people. This was discussed by many during hellatus and I look forward to the brothers remembering and living that.
Bevie
# Bevie 2015-10-09 11:52
So good to see you enjoying an episode at last Alice. I have to agree with you on this one completely with your review.

And we seem to be the only ones who really enjoyed Crowley's orgy. It was so "Crowley"! And she nailed it!

An A for me.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-09 13:18
Its been torture waiting an extra day to watch this episode but it was worth it! This kind of episode is my favourite. Its similar to Croatoan with the locked up in a building surrounded by infected people, and competently baffled on what to do. That is what kept me on the edge of my seat; worried and excited.

I thought this episode was very well paced. I wasn't expecting Sam to be infected this episode but I'm not complaining one bit! Again the pace was very good for that, from the infection to the worried look in the mirror. My only complaint (okay two..) was infection by blood. Did I say similar to Croatoan? Make that very similar.. The other complaint is they die after only a few hours. At the moment I'm not keen on that idea. I guess the Darkness doesn't want company.

Quote:
However, I REALLY loved how noise is coming from the cage. You know it’s Lucifer. Death said it all, Lucifer was the original holder of the Mark. I wonder what he has to say and how he’ll get to say it.
When that demon said that my heart skipped a beat! Mentioning the cage and noises coming from it? Good lord this season is hyping itself up well! Maybe we'll see Adam? ;)

I'm going to HOPEFULLY enjoy next week's episode with Veiny-Sam (Black Veined Sam or Darkness Sam?). Just give me some bat shit crazy Sam for at least a quarter of the episode and I'll be happy. *sigh* But I know in my head that I will be disappointed. I hope I'm very wrong.
Fiona
# Fiona 2015-10-09 15:03
Good review. Thank you. Just one little conundrum: If Dean killed Death, how were all the infected dying? Does this mean Death isn't dead or is it perhaps because The Darkness pre-dates Death and his services are no longer required? Does anyone have any insights or thoughts?
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-10-09 18:23
This was my question too. I hope they address it. I completely agree with your review Alice :) and mark me down as one who thought Crowley stopping for an orgy was pretty funny.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-09 21:00
I am just spit balling here but I don't think Death himself did all the legwork. He had all his reapers who are presumably still able to reap. They might not have Big Daddy reaper but does it mean all the reaping is halted? I honestly don't know, the lore on Death and reapers gets a little confusing to me.:)
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-10-09 21:26
It really confuses me too. And it doesn't help that it changes when ever they feel like it.;)
Fiona
# Fiona 2015-10-09 15:06
ps...Sorry. I just remembered that God invented death when Adam and Eve disobeyed him/her. So now I'm even more confused.
JT
# JT 2015-10-09 18:06
Excellent review, Alice. I'm especially intrigued by your question, "what could this one being do that's so awful that she could only be contained by God and his archangels?"

I share your confusion about Death, Liona. I'm also bewildered about why Amara is wearing the mark that kept the Darkness locked up. I'm probably stating the obvious here, but is Carver suggesting that God defeated the Darkness by taking away the source of its power--the mark--and giving it to Lucifer to guard? If so, I guess the only way to lock up the Darkness again is to remove the mark from Amara and put it somewhere safe. I wonder why the Darkness took the body of a baby. Is she incapable of possessing a human unless she does so before the human is born? Maybe Carver wants to give us a (rapidly growing) half human/half Amara, torn between good and evil, but that wouldn't explain Amara's choice of meat suit. As for the rabid people not attacking Sam, it could have been because he was already infected, but I don't know. They looked a bit startled and intimidated to me. Maybe the Darkness sent out a signal not to kill Sam. After all, Amara told Dean they'd be taking care of each other. She certainly couldn't hope for Dean's cooperation if she were to blame for the death of his brother.
SueB
# SueB 2015-10-09 18:22
I really like this one too. I'll have to agree with Alice, I thought the orgy bit was funny. Crowley is mercurial. I could see him toying around with the suburbanites just for the (Crowley) fun of it. He was going to slice their throats to get blood for a phone call anyway. So why not see how much he can emotionally traumatize them with "Marn's" unexpected sexual prowess (I mean, Crowley's been around... he's got to have a few tricks up his sleeve) before killing them? Totally a Crowley thing to do IMO.

So I have a theory about the smoke cloud that took over everything. What if it was a boobytrap set up by God on the lock on the Darkness? Like a last defense. So when the lock opened, the smoke rushed out and turned people it came into contact with into weapons. Specifically rabid leviathan-ish weapons who wanted to kill the Darkness as it started to manifest on this plane of existence. Yes, a few hundred people died... but maybe the Darkness was vulnerable for a period of time and set up the booby trap to make it's immediate surroundings hostile to it if it should ever open the lock. The reason I went down this line of thinking is that the Rabids died off. He didn't create a world-wide epidemic. He just created a localized phenomenon to try and stop the Darkness.

Of course it didn't work because Dean was going to SAVE THE FREAKIN' BABY. And what a perfect disguise for the Darkness. Humans would naturally protect a baby. By making the humans rabid, he overrode their instincts.

But I can also see Dean having another conversation with Amara (adult version) and her denying turning the people into monsters. They were after the baby, after all...so her story would possibly hold water. Just another way of confusing Dean.

All I know is he better come clean to Sam about his Amara-visions.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-09 22:34
And Sam to Dean about his little infection...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-09 23:05
I agree about Dean coming clean. His relationship with the D could have really world ending consequences. And what Dean is being told is a game changer. But I do think she should be thanking Sam or Rowena instead of Dean.

I am sure Sam will at least tell Dean about the cure. Hard to say if he will come clean about being infected though. I think he wants to take his new motto out for a spin for a while before Dean decides shoot first regret later is the better plan.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 13:02
Because keeping the fact that you are infected with an unknown rabid virus makes so much more sense? I keep reading people criticising Dean for not telling Sam about the Darkness (even tho he has divulged and passed on what he knew so far as he knew it when he was filling Sam in initially) which is even assuming how much he is remembering and when and yet handwaving Sam not telling Dean he's been infected? I have to believe that in the clip it is Dean he is talking to, it only makes sense they would stay in phone contact until Dean gets back. Maybe Sams telling him so that when they do meet back up not to assume Sam is Sam in case he wasn't able to find the cure.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 13:53
I will refer you to the new promo. I don't know where you are reading criticism about Dean. I think it is the first episode of a two parter. We don't know what is going to be divulged by either brother at what time and to who. But I do think that any information on the Darkness that Dean is learning will be far more important to the over all "Saving People" than Sam telling Dean he has been infected. I imagine the infection thing will be wrapped up fairly quickly (just guessing) and the only information that Sam can give to Dean at the moment is something they already know. It is transmitted through ingesting blood. After Sam discovers that roasting marshmellows in holy oil is the cure then he will have something meaningful to share. Right now he thinks he is just going to die.

The information that Dean has about Amara and the Darkness I think will be a season long problem for the boys. I believe it is just the weight of the secret not who is keeping a secret from whom. And if Dean is keeping it from Sam, why? Is he being coerced so much to protect the D that he can't come clean? All adds to the mystery of what is happening with the Winchesters.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-10 15:58
Quote:
After Sam discovers that roasting marshmellows in holy oil is the cure
Oh stop xD

That first time I watched the promo thinking "Is he roasting a marshmallow?" was great..
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 18:47
Something to share. Are we talking cure or toasty marshmallows? Once the cure is in effect Sam can then release his "Sam's New Holy Oil Toasted Marshmallow Cure And Insta Snack"™ closely followed by "Sam's Holy Oil Toasted Marshmallow Smores"™ both coming soon to an apocalyptic vending machine near you! How's that for sharing and caring? Who says good things never come out of bad?

Yes I wonder if that is something they will reveal next week or if they will draw it out over the season. I'd like to see that if he does keep it from Sam that it's not intentional and that he isn't aware he is doing it. Like he's telling Sam what he thinks is everything, believing that he is completely on the level but The Darkness will not allow it. Omg I just described Cas and Naomis storyline. Throwing up now. ;)
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-10 17:37
I agree about the veiny people it being from the Darkness and probably then a failsafe mechanism if the lock is opened. Dialogue between the Darkness and Dean, Dean’s focus on saving the baby, the veiny people congregating at the hospital... There are a lit if hints in show.

I also think that Dean is currently in thrall to her. She is supernatural being with tremendous powe and there is a pre-established connection because of the Mark and because she has been with him for over a year, whispering to him and helping him via the Mark.

I think he was laser focused on saving the baby, he even agreed to care for her, and all to willing to let Sam sacrifice himself in a bad plan borne out of Sam’s guilt.

I am glad Sam feels guilt and remorse even if he still would do it all again... heroes care about the consequences of their actions Sammy!
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-10 17:59
'Heroes care about the consequences of their actions....' They do. That's why heroes endeavour to change and break the cycle. So that it won't happen again. Something Dean really needs to consider doing because he does the same thing again and again and again, and it has led them to where they are now.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 19:19
The Mark is a lock and a key. The Mark isn't the Darkness. Death said that Lucifer went insane from bearing the Mark not because of the Darkness That may be why there was a great cry of fear from the cage. I don't think the Darkness has been "talking" to Dean (could be wrong though) for a year since that hasn't been established. They would have to expand on that mythology a bit which is pretty sketchy so far.

If it was a bad plan no matter what Sam said Dean would have never agreed to it. He is the one who usually calls the shots. Sam came up with a plan which Dean agreed to. I would assume because Sam was right, that killing people (even the deputy was guilt ridden for all of the friends she killed) just for the bigger picture has to stop. Mowing down innocent people no matter how hopeless the situation isn't the way to change their continuous vicious cycle. And yes Sam didn't know he was going to be in a fight for his life as soon as he got into the storeroom? but it wasn't his intention to kill anyone. His intention was to save as many as he could.

Dean's job was to save the baby and the deputy. Because of Sam's sacrifice he was able to do that. Dean didn't seem very angry about getting away and not kill anyone. I am sure he is going to be horrified when he finds out what it cost Sam to save them. But as the guys keep saying they are very much on the same page this year. I will go with that and watch the show knowing that they are going to work together to save as many people as they can. I don't think this season is going to be about the blame game. Dean owned up to his part and Sam owned up to his. Done. Moving on.

I do think that Dean is very much being controlled by the Darkness. That was a little disappointing. I was hoping for no supernatural influence for either brother. But we will see where this goes.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 19:50
Quote:
I don't think this season is going to be about the blame game. Dean owned up to his part and Sam owned up to his. Done. Moving on.
Well, TPTB are moving on, and the brothers are moving on, but sadly there is a small faction of fans that is NOT moving on and that apparently wants the brothers to be at each other's throats all the live long day. Fortunately that is not the route the show seems to be taking! Yay!!
Mallena
# Mallena 2015-10-09 23:02
I must have been very successful at avoiding spoilers, because I had no idea that season 11 was going to feature a baby. Watching the premiere, I kept thinking, why are they spending all this time talking to a guy holding a baby?? When it was revealed that the mission now was to save this baby, and to have Sam stay behind and find a cure.....what?? Is he suddenly an expert on zombie diseases? I was baffled. Babies are great in real life, but have a troubled path on this kind of show. Remember Xena's baby Eve or Angel's baby Creepy Connor? They got wisked away to return as grown characters nobody cared about. Scully's baby was cute, but almost ruined the few last seasons. Is this baby Amara going to stay around? I do have a cute picture in my head, though, of Sam playing peek-a-boo with Amara, and Dean walking past and saying, "Don't play with the evil baby, Sam!!"
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 14:00
Yes the baby angle will have to be handled very carefully. She was an adorable baby though. :)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-10 15:16
Thanks, Alice, a great review. A couple of considerations. Sam's and Dean's mode seems absolutely logical. These are the paths they have been going for a while. In fact they started somewhere in the second half of season 6. With Sam after his realising what soulless Sam had been doing, and with Dean after Lisa and Ben's abduction. Sam's reluctance to kill was noticeable and got obvious in season 9, and especially in season 10 as well as his drive to save people and not to let anyboby to get hurt. But I have already written about that. What was hopeful, that Dean not only listened to Sam about this one, he seems to have heard that.
About boys withholding information, I don't think it's a big deal. Why to frighten each other and distract each other from important tasks they face (saving a baby and finding a cure) if it can't be helped at the moment and not to try to figure it out for themseves at first? Not a problem, if it won't last, in my mind.
Tealka
# Tealka 2015-10-10 16:35
disgruntled viewer, you're right about Sam's reluctance to kill, but I thought Carver's depiction of him in this episode was nothing short of RIDICULOUS!

Sam saw and heard about how violent the rabids were; he knew that the one hammering on the door in the hospital would attack whoever was on the other side and do to them what was done to the family dead in the car. Yet, what did Carver have our hunter do? Sam stood there, gun in hand, keeping out of sight. WHY? Did he hope the infected maniac would simply give up and walk away? Good luck with that one. If the rabid guy hadn't dropped dead, Sam's non-violent approach might well have cost the lives of the people in the closet.

Later, Sam told Dean they shouldn't kill the rabid killers. Instead, Sam insisted, he was going to find a CURE! Now, let's consider the timeline. When the brothers came across the victims of the rabids and the bodies of the infected road crew members killed by the cop, Dean said about two hours had passed since he killed Death. The hospital was just up the road; not long after they arrived, while Dean was sewing up the cop, Sam saw the rabid drop dead in the hospital corridor. So, as Sam pointed out, the rabids have a "shelf life"--a very short one, apparently. So, what was Sam planning to do? Find a computer, look under "Cures for People Infected by the Darkness," throw some chemicals or spells together and cure Mike and the other infected people--all before the rabids dropped dead in a matter of what? Minutes? An hour tops?

And--even though Sam himself said the infected were "not human"--apparen tly he expected the maniacal killers would wait peaceably while he found a cure if only he could reason with them. Thus, after he was attacked in the storage room by an entirely irrational rabid, he said to the trio of others who went for him, "Don't do this. Let me help you." Right. That's just how to discourage a mad dog from tearing you to pieces.

I'm assuming Carver gave us this Sam so that, in the next episode, Dean will be forced to experience his brother's longing to save, rather than kill or let die an infected person--namely Sam himself. But, if that was Carver's goal, he could have come up with a better way to reach it than turning Sam into a complete fool and rank amateur no self-respecting hunter would want on his team.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-10 16:58
If the rabid guy hadn't dropped dead, Sam's non-violent approach might well have cost the lives of the people in the closet.
That's exactly why he waited. If he saw the danger to people, he wouldn't have hesitated. It was shown later, when he killed that rabid woman. The asumption, that Sam was afraid simply preposterous taking into consideration that he lured the whole bunch of them upon himself and even without taking out the gun. He only hoped that as many of them as possible would stay alive until he finds a cure, if he could. I don't know, I admired Sam in this whole episode. You seem to be hypercritical, don't get any offence. :)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-10 17:02
You know, I think that things like that is exactly what is called the real heroism, not going with guns blazing and killing everything that moves.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 19:50
You mean killed the rabid woman that was attacking and about to kill him? That rabid woman? He wasn't nobley killing her to prevent her from killing/infecti ng others, he was killing her to prevent her from killing/infecti ng him first. Even pacifists recognize the value of self defense.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 20:16
I agree with your assessment of Sam's actions. I don't know why everyone thinks Sam's plan was to head for the lab and whip up a cure, doggone it! Of course that wasn't his intention. He's simply decided that in accordance with a return to actually trying to save people, the way they used to try to save the human hosts of demons, maybe they should spend just a little bit of time trying to ascertain what the infection actually was. They had no idea if it was permanent, if it could be resisted by the person, if there was anything short of blowing their heads off that could slow them down or stop them. And as I pointed out elsewhere, the baby's father was doing a pretty good job trying NOT to kill Dean and the deputy before he finally died. I also agree with Cheryl that Sam didn't know anyone was in that utility closet until the baby cried. It could have just been an infected person going nuts. He didn't know for sure because the brothers DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE INFECTION at this point. Which is why it's admirable that Sam does not want to kill the infected unless he absolutely has to. Isn't that the whole point of his "saving people" speech?
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-10 18:02
What Sam's plan does is buy them time, time to find a cure so they can help other infected people, not necessarily those in the hospital at that time. You can't find a cure or help people if you just shoot them all.
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-10 18:06
If it was a good plan Sam wouldn't have been attacked, and infected within minutes .
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-10 18:12
They're hunters. Hunters often die protecting others. They could have died, or the baby been killed, if they went out with all guns blazing. And one thing is for certain, the 'if it moves then shoot it' mentality they've had for thr last few seasons doesn't work.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 19:08
But if you shoot them all considering what you do know (short shelf life/infectious ) compared to what you don't know (how long it would take or even if there is a cure, how many rabids are in the building and if that is the only threat waiting for you), then YOU live. You can always regroup and figure things out when everyone is safe. No, instead we rethink our SOP right in the middle of a serious situation and go with a plan that is most assuredly guaranteed to be fraught with unnecessary danger.

If Dean were in his normal headspace as opposed to distracted with The Darkness and everything that has gone on the past several hours - his back to the wall, throwing in the towel, the agreement with Death which resulted in almost killing his brother, the beat down of said brother and the killing of Death knowing that by doing so he was dooming both himself and Sam to the MOC status quo, finding out rather painfully that the spell for the MOC was successfully cast, seeing the cloud, waking up in a field a mile away and being saved by and having a conversation with The Darkness - I'm not so sure he would have gone along with it.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-10 19:25
Oh now Don't you go all logical on me!

There’s logic and then there’s ...
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 19:40
There's logic and then there's logic with a side of SAM 'S NEW HOLY OIL TOASTED MARSHMAL- oh, I'm doing it again aren't I? I'll let myself out. *quietly closes the back door*
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2015-10-11 12:17
"There's logic and then there's…" The IMDB echo chamber consensus! Good one PSG!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 19:52
They weren't in deadly peril that very second. Obviously they had time to come up with a plan and execute it. I just don't see the issue everyone is having with a plan that "both" brothers agreed to. No where in the script did Dean say well I am really messed up right now so even though I think this is a crappy plan I will go with the guy I just beat to a bloody pulp, threatened to skewer with Death's scythe, who witnessed his brother disappear from the Impala just before he got knocked out by some invisible force and then found his disoriented brother a mile away. We are both in really bad places right now but I am far more messed up so I will go with Sam's plan.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 20:17
They were standing there, Sam yammering on (loudly I might add which was not exactly all stealthy hunter considering they had no idea who was where) about their New and Improved Mission Statement while there are zombies around. What they do know is several jumped out of the truck and were heading inside. If they knew where they were entering the building - and since Sam called their attention to himself when he was playing decoy it is safe to assume they did - then why not Exit Stage Right, or Left, or Wherever, That's All Folks! ;) Instead Sam went further into the bowels of the hospital, a place he had never been before where there could have been 30 infected roaming around. If it was a suicide mission then I say bang up job, you succeeded Sam! But I don't think it was meant to be. It would have made more sense to go out a door opposite the one the construction worker rabids were, guns blazing IF need be. What did the plan entail that pacifist Sam would do if he were to run into more than the group coming in from outside? Explain the New and Improved Mission Statement to them and hope they don't attack? Figure out the cure while he's being torn apart. There is nothing logical that can be derived from this plan unless it was a suicide mission - not tactically based on the situation that they found themselves in.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2015-10-11 12:25
Since when are the scripts always logical on this show? What was logical about Dean taking on the MOC in the first place? Sure, he was emotionally wrecked, but so is Sam now. It's clear to me that Sam wanted to save the the police officer and the baby first and foremost. He looked directly at them when he said that he was going to be a decoy.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-10-12 08:47
Quote:
Since when are the scripts always logical on this show?
Seasons 1 - 5.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 20:23
For the record Cheryl, I'd say the same if Dean had been the one to come up with this plan as opposed to Sam. I'm not bashing Sam. ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 21:36
I never said you were. My point is that they both agreed to the plan. I just don't get with all the cool stuff that happened in this episode there is so much focus on the plan. It was necessary to get Dean and Sam separated so that I would presume whatever is going to happen in the 2nd part can happen.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 22:53
I think they didn't want to sneak out the back or side door because Baby was in the front. Which presumably is why Dean's plan was to blast their way out the front through who knew how many infected. How on earth was that a better plan? Sam's "distraction" plan gave the other three the best chance of getting out unseen, and, most importantly, IT ACTUALLY WORKED! That seems to be getting lost in all of the 11th hour quarterbacking here. If the primary goal was save that adorable little baby, mission accomplished. Of course they may come to regret that!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 01:00
No it failed because Sam got infected. Dean and company got out so that was a partial win but in no way was that what you could consider it a total success. How is blasting your way to safety a better plan? Easy. A dead zombie isn't going to come back after you or return to ambush you as you run around a corner. Traipsing around in a hospital with God knows how many infected rabids alone with no backup. Speaks for itself. And as I said if it were Deans idea I would feel exactly the same.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 01:53
Infected doesn't have to mean dead. However, being shot will mean dead.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 02:43
Infected means infecting others. Dead means it isn't going to spread that way. Infected means short shelf life. Dead means shorter shelf life. Problem solved. Sucks to suck but these are the kind of things that come under the heading biblical ramifications.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 03:34
Infected won't mean dead if they find a cure. Finding a cure = problem solved.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 04:29
Tell that to the dead people that were needlessly infected and died while a cure is being looked for. In the meantime they aren't containing anyone to prevent further contamination, they dont even know the possible numbers that they are up against.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 05:17
So now the issue is that there's looking for a cure but they're not doing it fast enough? In order to be able to start looking for a cure, there needs to be people to cure, which there won't be if they shoot everyone infected. If I might compare, the Ebola virus; spread quickly, very high death rate, little talk of a cure etc, do viewers believe that those infected with it should just have been shot? They were still working on a cure for that long after people started dying.

In relation to containment and seeing how many are infected etc, it's been an episode, so they don't know the scale of it yet. It might be 10 people, it might be 10,000. 'Biblical proportions' are often a very small number in the show. However, it can't all happen at once ie save, kill, cure, contain, scope etc. In this episode they focused on saving.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 06:28
You have to be being intentionally obtuse in the way you try to manipulate and twist my words.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 06:40
Not at all. I'm drawing similarities between a real life, relatable situation to one on the show. To find a cure takes time, but they can't find a cure if they're spending their time killing all the infected.

In the second part of my post I commented in relation to containment, an issue you raised.

However, as you've decided my posts, and the posts of others who have the same ideas as I do, lack common sense and logic perhaps this discussion should end.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 06:44
I wasn't referring to others here.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 07:18
Will we just let it serve as a warning to others then? If posters disagree with you, or say something you don't agree with, then they lack logic and common sense.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 11:27
just because others don't agree with your point of view, or see things in the same light as you, does not make them obtuse. And, I have bad news for you and PsG; as much as you would wish it to be, they're probably not going to kill off Sam in episode 2. :):):)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 14:52
Even though he "broke the world" and "undid creation?" Shocking!:D
Maire
# Maire 2015-10-11 00:43
Isn't that very little to know in the grand scheme of things? If they can die that easy then perhaps they can be cured that easily, something they'll never know if they just kill them all. Who's to say that everyone would have been safe if they went with Dean's plan? The gunfire could have drawn more infected, as I imagine that would be louder than Sam 'yammering' on. The SOP of shoot first think later is what got them into that mess in the first place so I'd say that revising it when they did was a perfect time to do it. Sam and Dean can discuss about how much they want to change blah blah all they want but, regardless of what decide, in the heat of battle the first instinct is to go back to kill everything and not think.

Maybe Dean 'throwing in the towel' again is the problem. Killing everything is a sign of defeat, not a sign that you're willing to fight on. I know you've listed out things that might have been on Dean's mind but Sam also had most of that, and more, on his mind as well, and he didn't throw in the towel. He had a plan and he had hope. Something Dean didn't have.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 01:20
Sam had hope because he wasn't the bearer of the MOC, he wasn't fighting it all that time on a day to day basis like Dean was. Sam also wasn't facing eternity exiled on another planet. Dean did have a plan, Death just decided to up the ante and throw Sam into the mix which was seriously horrible for Sam (and for that reason alone I hope Death really is dead - talk about deserving it) but if he had died Dean would still be immortal and without him. With Dean's choice to off Death he was accepting and asking Sam's forgiveness for damning them both to the MOC. So yeah, I can understand why Dean was/is? flat out of hope.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 02:15
Remind me, AlyCat but what exactly did Dean do to fight the MOC? I mean, he drank some green smoothies, and ordered Sam to stop researching and then he went to Death to fix his problem. I get that Dean wasn't in the best place but he was like this (ie kill all) ever before the MOC or Purgatory. The only difference in their usual MO is that Sam is now saying 'Lets stop and rethink this'.

Death didn't throw Sam into the mix, Sam was in the mix from the moment Dean took on the mark. And it ties back nicely to season 8. When Sam believes Dean is dead and at peace, he will try to move on. When Dean is alive and needs help, then Sam will help him. So Death was being entirely logical. If he kills Sam then Dean will do everything he can to bring him back, if he sends Dean into outer space or wherever then Sam will do everything he can to bring him back. Only thing that might stop them from doing that is have one kill the other. Death is Death. If all his decisions and actions were dependent on how people feel then he'd be entirely redundant.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 03:20
If you did not see Dean's struggle to fight the pull of the MOC throughout Season Ten beyond a milkshake or white omelet or two then I think we are watching a different show.

Sam does not have the high ground when it comes to the usual killing first, ask questions later. He has not been the only one that has ever questioned killing. If you think that then we are clearly watching a different show. And since you will most assuredly ask when, here's one. Example: Malleus Maleficarum - Dean: "They're human Sam." Sam: "They're murderers" Now technically there wasn't proof that all of the women were involved in the murder of Janet Dutton, it was more than likely possessed DemonTammy did it all and yet Sam said "they're murderers" clearly ready to take out the bunch. Dean was the one to remind him that they were human. Sam didn't care. Oops!

Death did throw Sam in the mix by making his life a condition to helping Dean. It was a bit ludicrous to think if Dean is on some other planet in some other galaxy that Sam would ever be able to locate him let alone save him. Cas maybe, Sam no.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 03:48
I'm trying to tie in various comments that appear to contradict each other. I mean, for Dean to have to fight the pull of the MOC ,the MOC would have to be affecting him, but for some posters the MOC affecting Dean wasn't enough to justify Sam trying to save Dean from the MOC. I'm just trying to figure out which it is, either Dean was bad enough for Sam's actions to be warranted or the MOC wasn't affecting Dean at all so he didn't fight it.

I never said that Sam has the high ground when it comes to the kill vs save argument. However, in the last few seasons all they do is kill. Sam is right, they need to start thinking about saving people again. And this shows a marked difference between Sam and Dean in the last few seasons, Sam will work to stop bad things from happening (or getting worse), Dean waits until the bad thing has happened (or gotten worse) before he steps in and kills the bad thing.

Your comment on the witches and how Dean reminded Sam they're human is timely. Dean killed many humans in season 10, and they weren't witches. Perhaps they should be used to show just how much the MOC had taken hold of Dean.

It's not the saving or locating that's the problem, it's the process of doing so that creates problems. And do you really think Castiel wouldn't help Dean if Death put him on another galaxy?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 05:25
No one is saying that Dean wasn't affected by the MOC. He was the entire time. He said he had nightmares, dark thoughts and urges. I believe the word bloodlust has been used time and again and not just by me, but for a time Dean was managing it. Satisfying it's bloodlust with kills from their hunts... there were times it got the best of him such as the incident at the cabin with Randy and the rapists and tho that was self defense even he said it was a massacre. He went on solo hunts to quench the marks craving. He didn't truly allow himself to give into it willingly until Charlie's death and Sam's plan was in the works long before that. The Stynes were human ish but they were, if not technically monsters, definitely murderers and at that point because they took someone from him he cared about he was going to take them all out. Revenge for Charlie. He wasn't out slaughtering mindlessly, allowing it to take over. They had time - even Cas said he might be able to resist for centuries. As Dean said they would find another way. He wasn't willing to use the BOTD. In the end after he beat Cas and willingly let that other Hunter get killed as well as his callousness over everything I think he realized the lines were starting to really blur together and he didn't want to chance that he might hurt or kill an innocent so before that ever happened he used the last card in his deck, Death.

How does Sam work to stop things from happening or getting worse? By doing research? What are you talking about? How does Dean wait until the bad thing has happened or gotten worse before he even steps in and kills the bad thing? You mean Mr. Shoot First, Ask Questions Later? Uh, no.

Yes which would make Deaths whole demand of killing Sam moot. And stupid.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 06:14
There are plenty of people saying that there was little difference between MOC Dean and regular Dean. He's always had nightmares, he's always had bloodlust, he's always been violent. It's the reason many feel Sam's actions were unjustified. And the incident at Randys wasn't self defence. Dean can incapacitate with a single blow. We've seen that. There was no need to kill anyone, let alone everyone, especially not the guy tied to chair. The same with the Steins, and the killing of the kid. He massacred the lot of them because one of them killed Charlie. Ditto with the nest of vampires and who knows what else. Dean was feeding the bloodlust, not fighting it.

Sam tries to stop things from happening like removing the MOC before it gets worse, like being willing to sacrifice one person if it will save others, like being willing to use his powers to stop the apocalypse. Like being willing to get his hands dirty. Best example of this was Jus in Bello (I think) where he was willing to sacrifice Nancy if it meant saving everyone else. To some it's heroic, for others it makes him a monster but he was still willing to make the tough decision in order to save others.

Death demanding Sam's death wasn't only smart but wholly necessary because if Sam is dead then he won't be able to try and save or locate Dean, and Dean will be in outer space so he won't be able to try and save or locate Dean.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 06:48
Oh okay so getting hit over the head with a bottle, getting kicked in the head and four/five men advancing on you with weapons while you are incapacitated and fighting back is NOT self-defense? Please tell me you aren't in any form of law enforcement.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 07:25
I'm not. However, Dean is a trained hunter, has been for years, skills honed in purgatory etc. Deann, and Sam, have incapacitated people and hunters better trained than them before. there was no need to kill the men, especially not in 'self defence'.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 07:03
So it's okay now to sacrifice an innocent person for a spell??? Good to know. Well yeah then no surprise another innocent was killed for the MOC spell. Hey, you kill one innocent, what's another? And you are crying about the fate of the rabid people? What was heroic was instead of listening to a demon, Dean made the tough call and came up with a brilliant alternate plan. Ruby threw that spell out at Sam knowing Dean would never go through with it so NOT only did she know she was safe but she also drove another wedge between the brothers at the same time. There is no way Ruby would have sacrificed herself when she was playing Sam the entire time.

But wait according to YOU the prevention of the removal of the MOC in the future is irrelevant since it was Dean's killing of Death that released The Darkness...
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 07:33
Define 'okay'. Not sacrificing Nancy (something she was okay with) led to them all dying horrific deaths as a result of the 'brilliant alternate plan'. So what was more heroic, the plan or the consequence? . Regardless of what Ruby knew, following her plan would have saved the lives of everyone bar Nancy. Ruby wouldn't have had to sacrifice herself. She was playing poker . It was her game and dean blinked. And by that made Ruby's plans seems more trustworthy and Dean's plans less.

And, once again, never said that killing Death is what removed the mark. I won't say again what I said, I've said it enough times.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 03:11
I think if anyone could identify with what Dean was going through it would be Sam. He carried an evil in him (and maybe still does) his entire life. Sam faced an eternity in the cage with a very pissed off arc angel. He of all people knew exactly what Dean was going through. One thing that I have always admired about Sam is that he never gives up hope. Dean carries more guilt than he needs too. Sam reminds him time and again that there is always a way, there is always hope. Which is why Dean listens to Sam. Every now and then Dean believes in the hope that Sam carries with him. I think Sam's faith in his brother inspires Dean as well. They help each other be better people.

I feel a slogan coming on. They inspire each other to Always Keep Fighting.
Tealka
# Tealka 2015-10-10 17:49
I'm sorry, disgruntled viewer; I guess I didn't make myself clear.

Sam is no coward--far from it. He's extremely brave, smart as a whip, and one of the two best hunters on the planet--which is why I take such strong exception to the way he was presented in the episode. The Sam I know would never have simply stood there holding a weapon, doing nothing to stop a crazed, "not human" killer from breaking open a door and attacking the people on the other side. Sam would have acted as quickly as Dean would have by firing his gun. He's a good shot; he could have aimed for the guy's legs if he didn't want to kill him, but he would have done something to help the people under attack. I know OUR Sam--I happen to be a major fan of both brothers. He would have immediately stepped into the open to attract the infected guy's attention to himself and away from the people in the closet. But, instead, Carver made it look like Sam was taking cover behind a wall. To viewers unacquainted with Sam, he might have seemed like he was protecting himself, which has certainly NEVER BEEN Sam's way.

To my mind, Carver's depiction of Sam in this episode was just as OOC as his depiction of Sam as a guy who'd leave Kevin in the hands of demons and, for an entire year, never respond to his phone messages. That wasn't the real Sam. Neither was the "Sam" of this episode. The Sam we know would have wanted to save the infected, but not by risking the lives of innocent people. Furthermore, he wouldn't have been stupid enough to think he could reason with the infected, much less "cure" them before their shelf life ended in a matter of minutes or hours.

Carver wanted the audience to know that Sam blames himself for unleashing the Darkness that is already costing lives. But there are many ways Carver could have shown that without making Sam look like far less than the intelligent, highly experienced hunter he is.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-10 17:55
I think they have established that Sam doesn’t think clearly when he is stressed.. He was stressed when Dean disappeared, when he followed Ruby after Dean’s death, and when he was blabbering in circles in the premier. It wasn't a good decision on several levels. It certainly wasn't tactical.

I am more interested in the fact that Dean let him do it. I think Dean is in thrall to the Darkness and was compelled to save that baby for her. She does tell him that he will save her no Matter what her form.

So in my opinion they both were off.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2015-10-11 12:57
Or maybe Dean was stressed too and couldn't think clearly, like when he sold his soul after Sam's death or when he took on the MOC after betraying Sam and Kevin's death. I don't think that Dean was particularly different in this episode than Carver's Dean the last 3 seasons. When Dean is overwhelmed, the has a single focus and get into pit bull mode, like with the baby. Maybe he's affected by the Darkness, but it wasn't really shown in the first ep, IMO.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-10 18:38
What Marie said :) :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 19:15
It bothered me that they said that the rabids were not human, that Sam made that judgement without even knowing what was wrong or what exactly they were up against. I remember thinking at that very moment, "Really Sam? How could you possibly know by just looking at them?" He himself called them RABIDS. But then he turns around to say they are infected and must be saved. Really? Which is it?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 19:18
It bothered me that they said that the rabids were not human, that Sam made that judgement without even knowing what was wrong or what exactly they were up against. I remember thinking at that very moment, "Really Sam? How could you possibly know by just looking at them?" He himself called them RABIDS. But then he turns around to say they are infected and must be saved. Really? Which is it?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 19:18
It bothered me that they said that the rabids were not human, that Sam made that judgement without even knowing what was wrong or what exactly they were up against. I remember thinking at that very moment, "Really Sam? How could you possibly know by just looking at them?" He himself called them RABIDS. But then he turns around to say they are infected and must be saved. Really? Which is it?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 19:40
Sam said they weren't human because that is what Carver wanted us to know. Dean agreed because that is what Carver wanted us to know.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 19:24
Sam didn't know anyone was behind the door until the rabid started coming towards him. It was only then that the baby cried. The rabid died almost immediately after that. Sam didn't have time to kill him before he died.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-10 18:08
If he was stressed he'd have just shot everyone. And of course he was stressed after Dean disappeared, the same way that Dean is stressed when Sam disappears. That doesn't mean that what he did (followed Dean's wishes) was the wrong thing to do. In fact, considering the destruction both Sam and Dean have brought when their actions are dictated by stress (making a deal with a demon, take on the MOC, having their brother possessed etc), what Sam did when Dean disappeared was exactly the right thing to do. I'm not sure how following Ruby was any worse of a decision than following Castiel.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 20:02
Now Marie, don't go using that logic stuff and making perfectly good sense!;)
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2015-10-11 13:00
I just about duplicated your post upthread! Needless to say, I agree.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-10 18:09
Marie, Sam declared last season that he didn’t care about the consequences.
Dean always cares about the consequences unless he believes they affect him. He doesn’t care what happens to him, he cares about what happens to others.
This season is the start 9 Dam's redemption arc whether you like it or not.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-10 18:38
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D Thank you, I needed a good laugh.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 20:11
She was joking, right? Because otherwise the little matter of the Gadreel possession has slipped her mind. That nifty maneuver by Dean was done for himself, pure and simple, and not for Sam or anyone else. In fact, it went against Sam's express wishes and his desire that nobody ever again be hurt on his account. So Dean's selfish (but understandable in many ways) action was not only an enormous violation of Sam's trust but it also directly resulted in Kevin's death. Had Dean cared more about what happened to Kevin, he would have warned him about the rogue angel in Sam. I know Kevin was short, but I believe he counts as one of those "others" who is always first and foremost in Dean's mind- except when they're not. I know, details details. Some folks don't let those pesky things get in the way of their opinions.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 20:37
You mean pesky things like Dean asking, telling, insisting Sam not use the BOTD because of the cost of biblical proportions only for Sam to blatantly ignore him, going against his expressed wishes and desires and do it anyway. Resulting in not only (among other things) getting a friend and several innocents killed in the process but releasing The Darkness as well? Those nifty maneuvers?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 21:44
Yes Holy Horrors! This show is in it's 11th season and you are just now noticing that these two do some pretty outrageous stuff to save each other. Yes I agree they do. The point of Sam's speech was that all of that needed to change. He meant himself as well. They need to stop sacrificing innocent people for either their own gain or the "bigger" picture. It was meant to set a new tone for the rest of the series. Back to the original job.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 01:28
I was just using Dean's situation as an example in response to her previous post. I'm fully aware, but if she's going to call Dean out on his crap, she needs to recognize Sam's as well. I understand Sam's speech, I don't have a problem with Sam's points. That still doesn't take away the fact that it wasn't really the smartest time to bring it up. But hey, Dean and company escaped and Sam got infected so if that's what people want to consider a win who am I to argue?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 02:44
Dean escaped with a what the hell baby. Sam got infected by rabies. No I wouldn't categorize that as a win. Not at the moment at any rate. Sam was willing to do whatever it took to save the people. Sam was willing to sacrifice his life. Dean was willing to do whatever it took to save the baby. Dean was willing to protect the baby with his life. Seems like both fell into the fire. Stay tuned for part 2.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2015-10-11 13:07
I think that everyone here agrees that both bros have done a lot of "crap". Bringing up Dean's actions only was in response to PSG's assertion that Dean always think of others first, which is simply not true, especially when it comes to Sam.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 13:57
Quote:
Bringing up Dean's actions only was in response to PSG's assertion that Dean always think of others first, which is simply not true, especially when it comes to Sam.

Thank you for pointing that out, Julia. I had thought that was clear from my comment, but apparently I was wrong!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-11 15:47
Thank you Julia G.This is the pattern I have seen,Bring up sam vs Dean favouring Dean and then we reply to it and somewhere down the thread they assert that it was us who brought up this sam vs Dean
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 23:06
I'm not going to rehash all of the arguments about who did what to whom last year; my only point is that anyone who thinks that Dean has never made any mistakes and that his every choice has been guided by sheer selflessness and nobility, while Sam has been solely responsible for every evil that has befallen the brothers, nay, THE WORLD- well, I don't know what show that person is watching because it sure as hell ain't SPN. It kind of reminds me of how Demon Dean blamed Sam for Mary's death; that too was an asinine observation motivated by hatred of Sam.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 01:41
I never said that, you were the one who brought up Dean's transgressions, I just pointed out the obvious.

As sad and cruel as what DemonDean said it was also based in truth. IF Sam had never been Mary would still be alive. But then Mary was the one who made the deal so it really all does fall on her but that wouldn't have been as hurtful and DemonDean was going for maximum emotional carnage.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 08:52
or Dean taking on the Mark of Cain without taking a second to listen to Cain's warning about the burden/conseque nces of carrying it? And the fact that none of this would have happened without Dean's reckless and irresponsible behavior? I hear you.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-10 20:38
based upon prior posts by PsG, I would say no, they are not joking.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 19:30
When did Sam say that? He said that he would save Dean. He said that no one could tell him what the consequences were. He said that letting Dean turn back into a demon was not an option. Which everyone except Dean agreed to.
Dean cares about consequences too. But by his own admission he doesn't think things all the way through. I suppose that is why he wants to go back in time and shove the MOC up Cains ass.
Dean's redemption from what?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-10 20:10
Are you referring to the reference to Dam's redemption arc by PsG? Based upon prior posts, I believe PsG is referring to Sam, no Dean.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 20:22
A Freudian slip maybe? Because Dean "take on the MOC no questions asked" Winchester is very much in need of redemption as well.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-10 20:37
to be honest, both brothers have made more than their share of stupid mistakes, particularly in the Carver era.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-10 23:08
I'm not arguing with that. But the "halo on Dean, horns on Sam" attitude of some folks is simply ludicrous.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 08:49
very true... that's why I found the statement so amusing.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 21:50
Oh I thought she meant Dean's redemption arc. I guess she meant Sam. Well as long as it doesn't involve Sam throwing himself back in the cage I suppose an emotional journey for Sam would be cool.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-10 18:22
No, Dean always says that he cares about the consequences but his actions show that he doesn't. As long as Dean gets what he wants (to hunt and have Sam hunting beside him) then the consequences to others are irrelevant to Dean. Dean frequently does things that he knows are wrong, that he knows will hurt people, that he knows they wouldn't want so how can you say he cares about the consequences because of he did then he'd consider what is best for others, and what they want. Dean doesn't do this.

And Sam declaring he doesn't care about the consequences doesn't really tie with what we see him do, where he thinks of the big picture. What was he meant to do last season, leave a murderous/MOC/d emon Dean run about the place? Huh, you'd think with all the complaining Dean did in season 9 when he believed Sam wouldn't burn the world for him that Dean would be happy.

And I'm glad that this season is the start of the Dean redemption arc because God knows he needs it. It's good that actually listening to Sam for once has put him on that path.
Psg
# Psg 2015-10-10 19:22
I quoted the transcripts of Sam discussing saving Dean on the specultimate thread. Actually Sam says he doesn't want to hunt without Dean and that is why he has to cure him. Lol. Perhaps watch the show more carefully.

You have inspired me to write an article for TVFTROU that includes the brothers" body counts that result from their choices and actions... Dean taking the Mark and Sam not caring about the consequences of using the spell and removing the Mark. Sam's consequences start last season as he implements his plans, and includes everyone killed as a result of Metatron being released, Rowena having two powerful books and of course all deaths that come from the Darkness being released.
What’s most important is that Dean was not Cain and was not murdering with indiscretion. Sam said Dean was out of control to secure the help of Cas, Bobby and Charlie however it never happened. Just because Sam says something it doesn't mean it's true. If they didn't bother to show it, it's not true. Dean didn’t ever go kill crazy and murder innocent people. Not even when he was a demon. Sam actually didn't want Dean to change and leave him. This is what he talks about whenever he discusses his personal rasons for saving Dean in season 10.

As you recall, Carver discussed that we would need to choose the brother that was the real monster last season. I think they clearly shouted it was Sam from talking Lester into a demon deal, leaving Lester's innocent wife to die, causing Suzie's death, releasing Metatron, threatening a psychic, giving Rowena a powerful magic book that the MOL was keeping safe to prevent witches from using it, ignoring Dean, lying to Dean, creating the situation that hot Charlie killed... then everyone that dies from the Darkness being released this season.

Sam is a veritable big bad. Not saying he's really bad. Not saying he's really a monster. I am saying he behaved emotionallc and selfishly and did care about the consequences for anyone as long as he got his brother back.

It's all very human really and not really heroic.

So yes. It will he a great think piece. Thanks very much for showing me that an article discussing Sam's arc, the consequences of his actions *remember it was a season for consequences), and of course setting the tone for his redemption arc starting this season.

As Gabriel said, Sam thinks Dean is the dysfunctional one but really it is Sam. Unspoken is the fact that Sam is, at his most dysfunctional when confronted with the loss of his brother. That’s the whole point of Mystery Spot isn't it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 19:36
Gabriel didn't say that Sam thought Dean was the dysfunctional one. He said that anyone who thought that Dean was the dysfunctional one had never seen Sam with a sharp object in his hand. Gabriel also told Sam the way "you two" keep sacrificing yourselves for each other. It will be the death of you Sam. Too which Sam begged for Dean's life. Yes Sam and Dean will do anything to save each other. Dean was given much easier choices. Sam not so much.

And of course it all ended up with Sam paying for his angel and demon manipulated mistakes with his life.

disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-10 19:46
I quoted the transcripts of Sam discussing saving Dean on the specultimate thread. Actually Sam says he doesn't want to hunt without Dean and that is why he has to cure him. Lol. Perhaps watch the show more carefully.
Yeah, and Dean selling his soul because he failed his job :D :D :D Thanks, it was a good laugh.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 01:49
I'm glad I've inspired you. Remember to count all the bodies as a result of Dean doing what he did, not just the monsters, and include the ones that you might have thought were not that nice. They all count. Maybe some speculation as to why Dean took on the MOC in the first place would be good because by doing so, similar to making a demon deal that set the match on the powder keg of the apocalypse, he set the wheels of this turning. No taking on the MOC, no need to try to get rid of thr MOC, no darkness released. Many people forget or ignore this simple connection.

It certainly is important that Dean was not Cain, the Cain we saw when he had the mark had self control. He was keeping bees and living a peaceful, if boring, life. He wasn't going around massacring people or monsters. And if I may take your 'logic' of 'If they didn't bother to show it, it's not true' then things such as Sam scoring high on his SATs didn't happen, or Dean 'doing everything he could' to get Sam out of the Cage didn't happen etc. It happened, fans just need to decide if they believe it. You decided that Dean was just Dean when he had the MOC, I don't. I don't think the Dean that the show is trying to sell as a hero would go into a room and kill all the humans, including one tied to a chair. I don't think he'd knife a human in the heart, even if he was bad. I don't think he'd spend blame his mothers death on a baby or wish his brother dead on a pyre. I don't think he'd chase his brother through the bunker and try to cave in his head with a hammer. You do. Perhaps I think more highly of Dean than you do.

I think his 'personal reasons' stem more from his belief, one reinforced by Dean, that he's not good enough, or honourable enough or worthy enough to save Dean. This is what Dean spent season 8 and 9 holding against, and using against, Sam. Though I agree, Sam didn't want Dean to change, he likes his brother human. I especially don't think he wanted Dean to change into an unkillable, rampant, killing machine. Sam knows Dean would never want this.

I don't think they 'clearly shouted it was Sam' who was the monster (though I don't think for some it needs to be clearly shouted, a tiny whisper of suggestion is all they need to decide Sam is a monster). I think they made us ask questions as to what a 'monster' is. Is it actions or is it consequences, is it killing or is it saving? Is it doing things you know are wrong but benefit inmy yourself or doing things you know are wrong but will benefit others? Looking at your list, there's really nothing there Sam and Dean haven't done before so have they both been monsters from the first season? I know that things like 'ignoring Dean' or 'lying to Dean are enough for some fans to believe Sam needs execution but why doesn't the same apply to Dean? I mean, Dean lies and kills and betrays and ignores others etc too but fans don't blink an eye when Dean does it. Might I suggest that for another article, why do fans have such high expectations of Sam but such low expectations of Dean.

Whats ironic about your statement that Sam behaved emotionally and selfishly is that many fans, yourself included, said the same thing in season 8. Fans, and Dean, have now gotten it both ways. They've gotten it all ways. They've gotten Sam do nothing and they've gotten him do something. They've gotten him do the same as Dean and do different to Dean. They've gotten him follow Dean's orders and not follow Dean's orders. They've gotten him do what they've both agreed to do and there has been the same reaction from many of the fans; Sam is selfish and wrong. Might I suggest that for a third article, what do fans actually want from Sam? Besides being a mindless drone who doesn't question, doesn't think, just strokes Dean's ego, follows orders and takes the responsibility for everything that goes wrong on the show, including Dean's independent decisions.

There's really no need to thank me, PSG. I will get much pleasure from the discussion. However, might I suggest you rewatch the show first because 'Sam is most dysfunctional when confronted with the loss of his brother'? When he was confronted with the loss of his brother in season 8, he settled down, fell in love, got a job and a house. So which is the more dysfunctional, doing nothing or doing something, saving or sacrificing?
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 02:12
It is wrong to not care about the consequences of your actions.
In s 6 Dean could have opened the cage himself immediately to get Sam. He didn’t because he had high expectations that bad things for others would come from that. Instead he kept looking and found a way to save Sam's soul with releasing a great evil onto the world.

You cited Dean’s demon deal. Dean took that deal believing the only one hurt by it was him. He had no expectation that he was the first seal of the Apocalypse.
Sam had every expectation that something bad would happen from using the book. I'm fact there was am MOL file on disasters resulting from the book's use. He had every expectation that releasing Metatron could go bad. We don’t even know what horrors Metatron will visit on humanity. Same with Rowena. He knew she was a killer. He used her and gave her two powerfull books regardless of the risks. In all three instances he knew there were risks to his actions. He didn’t care about the consequences. He says it outright to Cas in MBK.

When Dean took on the Mark he wanted to punish himself, just like San wanted to punish himself by his recent plan. He assumed that the curse or burden would affect only him . He was wrong in hindsight but he didn't expect that other people would be killed. He thought b the only consequences to himself.

Dean routinely risks his life and makes decisions believing the best purpose for his life is to go out in combat with whatever big bad is plaguing the earth. He has low self-esteem, something I believe Sam finally started to understand in s 8 in Trial and Error.

In his first arc Sam’s tragic flaw was hubris. This time around it is still hubris but of a different sort. It's tempered by fear and desperation. RUBY suckered him into her plans by priming him with flattery. She told him he was stronger than Dean and the only one that could do it.
Last season he still thought he had to be the one to save Dean but it wasn't to prove he was better than Dean. It was to prevent Dean from changing into something else.. He's visibly panicked until Dean is cured and the panic builds again as he realizes that his brother will become a demon again.

Meanwhile the only person truly trying to help Dean maintain control is Crowley.

They write Sam’s arcs as the tragic hero. It was very obvious I'm s 10 because they wrote the season building on the obvious outcome of his behavior set-up in the first episode. It was obvious he was out of control and his desperation would lead him to do disregard sound council and release something into the world. .. again. Because it was so obvious we became the Greek Chorus screaming at the screen for Sam to stop. It really enhanced the horror.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 03:27
Dean said in the first episode of S6 that he researched hundreds of books looking for a way to bust Sam out of hell. To which Sam said I told you to leave it alone. To which Dean said of course I wouldn't leave it alone, sue me. If it had been possible Dean would have done anything including releasing Lucifer to free his brother from the cage.
I don't see why it is so hard to understand that Dean loves Sam as much as Sam loves Dean. And because they can they will do anything to save the other from death. The only time that didn't happen was when Sam stuck with the plan they had agreed to (the one we never heard of) and let Dean go (to presumably rest in peace in heaven) oops. Sam was never going to make that mistake again. And he didn't.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 05:54
It is wrong to not care about the consequences of your actions. It's also wrong to keep doing things that you know are wrong, something both Sam and Dean regularly partake in, sometimes to benefit others, some times to benefit themselves. What's also wrong is to not do things to stop something that will lead to greater consequences ie not stopping MOC Dean. What's not wrong is to try to change when there are consequences to your actions.

Dean also knew that Sam would be hurt, and hurt greatly, by Dean's demon deal. He did it anyway because he gave precedence to ridding himself of the pain of Sam's death. Season 8 was the same. Dean knew that Sam would be hurt, and hurt greatly, by Dean's actions, but he did it anyway because he gave precedence to ridding himself of the pain of Sam's impending death.

Might I also point out that as much as Dean didn't know that torturing in hell was the breaking of the first seal, Sam had no expectation that saving lives via using his powers would lead to the breaking of the final seal. And neither of them knew that killing Lilith would be that final seal, yet they both wanted Lilith dead. This situation is the same. They both wanted the MOC gone, and both (or any) ensuing actions would have led to consequences. The only thing that wouldn't have had greater consequences was Dean not being led by the nose by Crowley, and leaving the MOC in the much safer hands of Cain.

Of course he had every expectation something bad would happen from using the book, as he had every expectation something bad would happen if he didn't use the book. There's an expectation that something bad would happen no matter what they do. Does that mean they do nothing?

I'm sorry, but I'm one of those people who believes Dean that Dean is pretty intelligent so I really don't think that Dean took on the Mark to punish himself and also the idea that he thought it would only affect himself. He took on the mark of a killer but didn't expect people would be killed!?! Dean isn't that dumb. He took on the mark in order to kill. His aim was to kill Abbadon, a demon who was, at that stage, a two bit demon minding her own business, who they had stopped with ease before that, so why it necessitated Dean taking on a biblical mark I'll never know. And when Dean did get to kill, he brutalised. No quick knife to the heart ala Amy any more.

The taking on the MOC epitomises what is wrong with Dean and his 'guilt'. He doesn't face it, he avoids it. Dean didn't take on the mark because he felt guilty. If he felt truly guilty he'd have stayed with his brother, tried to make amends or at least explain why. Taking on the mark enabled him to not give any importance to what he had done to Sam or how it affected him. It's pure avoidance on Dean's part. That is what is so annoying about Dean's 'guilt'. It's all talk. He feels guilty about what he does but not guilty enough to change what he does. Because what he does gets Dean what he wants so the guilt he feels is a more than acceptable consequence of that.

Sam wanted to punish himself, how? By saving Dean and saving the world from Dean?

"Dean routinely risks his life and makes decisions believing the best purpose for his life is to go out in combat with whatever big bad is plaguing the earth." This quote here actually sums up the problem, it's all about Dean and what Dean wants. He just wants to be a hero. And Dean consistently doing what he wants to get what he wants is what (inadvertently) is the first domino that leads to the big bad that plagues the earth.

All characters on the show have low self-esteem, not just Dean so Im not sure why it's used to try and excuse Dean's deliberate choices.

Sam's tragic flaw is extreme pride? Since when? This is the guy who believes he's the least of all of them, that he was always unworthy of going on a quest. Sam went with Ruby because she showed him a way to kill demons while saving the hosts. (Perhaps Sam's biggest flaw is believing he can save lives?). After their break up he returned to Ruby to try and stop the seals from being broken. You say Sam suffers from hubris because he believed he was the only one who could do it, but the angels were telling Dean that he was the only one who could do it, and he believed them. He told Sam that he was going to be the one to kill Lilith. So, Dean = hubris?

And last season wasn't about preventing Dean from changing into something else because Dean had already changed into something else. Perhaps if he hadn't taken on the MOC and hadn't knocked Sam out while he went to Metatron alone things might be different but hey, Dean's choices.

Crowley wasn't helping Dean to maintain control, he was trying to control Dean.

Torturing demons is now out of control? Jeez, so when is the last time Sam and Dean were in control because torturing is very often the first step in what they do. And sound council from whom, the MOC affected Dean? Everyone else was working with Sam.

There really wasn't chorus screaming at Sam to stop, at least no more than there was when Dean inexplicably took on the MOC (though that was more comedy of errors than Greek tragedy). What many fans were looking for, and not getting, was a reason for Sam to stop. Well, a reason besides 'Coz Dean said so'.

And then if Sam stopped there would have been chorus screaming at him to continue ('Because Dean is getting worse') or chorus screaming because he stopped ('How dare he give up on Dean like that. Sam always quits, just like he did in season 8') or just chorus screaming because it's Sam. And I do wonder how much of that 'chorus screaming' were screams of delight because if the finger of blame can be pointed in any way at Sam, then there's less time to point the finger of blame at Dean, who was, and is, no less culpable than Sam was.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 06:23
Brilliant. Got it. All Dean's fault, Sam given excuses and explanations aplenty.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 07:21
Actually, no Dean blame there. I thought explanations were what discussion sites were for?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 08:54
no, AlyCat22 must have thought they were posting on IMDB, where any defense of Sam, or negative statement about Dean is verboten.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 18:09
Beautifully stated Marie. I especially liked the way you laid out how Sam truly can never win with a certain segment of the fans.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 10:27
PSG, thank you for giving me a good laugh with this item on Sam's list of supposed transgressions:

Quote:
threatening a psychic,
Seriously?!! Threatening people is Dean's bread and butter move. Remember, that's why HE was the one infected with the ghost sickness in Yellow Fever, rather than Sam. I'm not saying it isn't warranted in some /many cases, but your inclusion of "threats" in your catalogue of bad acts by SAM demonstrates how extreme your bias against him is.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-10 18:51
Alycat, stop pimping those holy oil marshmallows. I can’t eat burned oil or sugar. It's the devil 8 telks youse!

My guess is Amara will cure the veiny thing but Sam will assume it was his prayers alone. See what I did there per Snow's fabulous crazy idea!!!
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-10-10 19:17
*grin* Yes, so Sam can be more useful to her at a later date. Maybe she only suppresses the veins temporally.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 02:13
Because Sam is important to Dean. Their connection has been established.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 19:28
No I will not stop! You of all people know that I am recently unemployed. Pimpi- uh, I mean, promoting Sammys new tasty treats while it's not a paying gig at least gives me some emotional satisfaction. Makes me feel like I still have something to offer that I'm not a failure and then what do you do? Criticize my non career trajectory by putting me on ignore! GOOD DAY TO YOU WOMAN. I SAY GOOD DAY!!!

;)
Tealka
# Tealka 2015-10-10 19:43
PsG, excellent point about Sam. In fact, throughout much of the episode, he acted desperate and confused. And you're right that Dean didn't seem to be thinking straight, either. When Dean's under stress, he itches to hunt; when Sam's under stress, he hungers to research. :) So I guess, in that sense, Carver kept them in character.

You're also right about Amara. Evidently, she took the body of a baby and infected the road crew just so Dean would arrive at the hospital and become her protector. Possibly, she'll return the favor by saving Dean's brother from insanity and death. But what's behind this? Does she have to be bound to Dean, or does she simply want to be bound to Dean?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-10 20:00


Well wouldn't you want to be bound to Dean? ;)

Sorry couldn't resist.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-10 20:40
Hells yes! Why I'd even give up my Sam's New Holy Oil Toaste- sorry. ;)
JT
# JT 2015-10-11 15:25
Cheryl42:D:D: I wouldn't be able to resist, either!
Tealka
# Tealka 2015-10-10 19:56
AlyCat, it bothered me, too, that Sam said they weren't human. As you point out, why would he jump to such a conclusion? And why would he think he could cure the rabids? He is a Man of Letters who's probably come across practically every scrap of information housed in the library. He's also familiar with the Book of the Damned. Is it possible he'd seen the veiny markings before?
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-10 23:40
Of course I would.
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-10 23:45
Yes Cheryl, an emotional arc for Sam, often Dam in my posts because of phone typing. The first time around instead of growth they gave us WWWS for a few seasons.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 00:30
wwws? I assume you mean What's wrong with Sam? Yes that was the main mytharc for the first 5 seasons. I was a successful arc and the show kept going with it. This year the promise is that neither brother will be supernaturally influenced. Well that kind of went out the window right away. Dean is under the influence of the Darkness and Sam is infected with Darkness curse. Oh well maybe it won't last.
Jared does a great job with that kind of story so I would be on board for that.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-11 15:43
After the horrible thing that was wwwd, I long for the days of wwws.They were absolutely best .Pacing was perfect.stories engaging.Sam was engaging when something was wrong with him.Dean was well *yawn*. This is not the fault of Dean. It is the fault solely of the writers.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 16:19
Quote:
Sam was engaging when something was wrong with him.Dean was well *yawn*.

That is so true Anonymous. Soulless Sam and demon blood Sam and every other iteration of Sam was mostly interesting. But the writers sure shortchanged Jensen with Demon Dean and MOC Dean. For the most part, it was quite dull. Although I loved DD in Reichenbach and in Soul Survivor. But MOC Dean was generally a snooze. No wonder Jensen was ready to be done with it.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-10 23:58
SamandDean, no halo vs horns and no to one always wrong vs right. The thing is we see Dean overcome with grief whenever he's made a mistake. He acknowledges it and he has a lot of self loathing as a result.
We don’t see that from Sam and historically we haven’t despite making some pretty bad decisions with a lot of forewarning from multiple characters. He doesn’t listen and disaster strikes. They have pretty much stuck him in the role of a classic tragic
hero with a big tragic flaw that prevents them from seeing the truth until it's too late.
Hopefully this is the last round of this and Carver will give him a proper redemption arc and character growth.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 14:44
This is probably pointless but I feel compelled to point out some huge errors in your post. While Dean has often taken on a load of guilt over things that weren't even really his fault, he has most certainly NOT acknowledged all of his mistakes and tried to redeem himself for them. Case in point, the Gadreel fiasco. Sure he was sad that Kevin died because of his actions, but he never expressed to Sam any remorse for tricking him into doing something that went against every fiber of his being, even though Dean acknowledged that he knew exactly how Sam felt. The closest he came was saying "I know I took a piece of you," but then he proceeded to get mad when Sam didn't immediately get over how upset he was over the betrayal of trust. And what was Dean's reaction to his guilt? Why, to compound the mistake exponentially by taking on the MOC. Dean does NOT deal with his mistakes and feelings of guilt in a constructive way. He either does something foolish like the MOC, or he drowns himself in alcohol and self-loathing, or he does both. I was hoping that the maturation arc Carver promised us would have Dean evolve and grow beyond the vicious cycle of guilt and self-loathing. Sam, on the other hand, has moved on from the Winchester way of taking on blame for everything that goes wrong. When he screws up, he apologizes (usually) and tries to rectify his mistakes, and your assertion to the contrary is patently ridiculous.. Case in point, freeing Lucifer. Sam expressed guilt and remorse for that repeatedly (I'm not going to attach the transcripts, but you can look at the transcripts for the last ep of S4 and almost every ep in S5.) He expressed a willingness to let Anna scatter his atoms across the galaxy so Lucy could never possess him, and he ultimately agreed to spend eternity in the cage being tortured by Lucy. Only a delusional person, or someone who slept through all of S5, could have missed his remorse and commitment to rectify his mistake, a mistake that even Dean said he could not have anticipated. Sam has since then chosen NOT to wallow in guilt over it. As he said in Defending Your Life (look at the transcript!), he was not going to keep beating himself up for something that he feels he atoned for by the equivalent of over 100 years of torment. Call me crazy, but I think that represents emotional maturity. He did backslide a bit in S8 when, after months of Dean badgering him about not looking for him in Purgatory, and rehashing all of Sam's past mistakes, Sam felt such a sense of guilt and unworthiness that he decided to close the gates of hell even at the cost of his life, just so he wouldn't let Dean down again. Maybe you missed that ep, but the scene in the church showed a Sam in despair at what he perceived as his failures regarding Dean. But now Sam is ready to grow up and stop feeling a constant need to prove himself to dean, as demonstrated by his speech in this ep about getting back to the idea of saving people other than themselves. This represents a huge step forward for either brother. Now if Dean truly gets on board with that, we will finally have come full circle back to S1 when the boys were dedicated to both parts of the bumper sticker. I just want to emphasize that both brothers have made countless mistakes, and will continue to do so. And both brothers have their flaws (yes, even Dean!). But in terms of being accountable for their mistakes and dealing with them in a constructive way, I think Sam has generally shown greater maturity. And with that, I'm done debating with you because I think you're incapable of seeing any good in Sam or bad in Dean, no matter how many transcripts I refer you to.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 00:36
I don't think having seasons of what's wrong with storylines is good for character development. I hope Sam never has another one. I want to see human Sam.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 01:35
I don't know 11 seasons and counting. Something must be working. But I do agree. No supernatural affliction for either brother. I was so glad that there is not going to be finger pointing either (well at least by the brothers). That was a huge win for me.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 01:46
Seconded! Last year when we would get glimpses of Sam instead of WWWS Part VI, I would think to myself I really missed that guy. Hiya Sam!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 02:22
When has there been a season where something wasn't wrong with one or the other of them. And this year unfortunately hasn't started out any differently. Yes Sam seems to get the lions share of the afflictions. But Jensen said that was his comfort zone. Being Dean bailing Sam out of whatever jam he was in.

It doesn't bother me so much. It kind of keeps Sam a little mysterious. Dean is exactly what you see. A dynamic that seems to work.
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-11 01:03
Marie, sorry but no. Dean wasn’t without hope. He was in survival mode. Sam was riddled with guilt at removing the Mark.

The set-up with the crowd of goons outside the building if from John Carpenter's Assault on Precinct 13. The film is, from the seventies however it is extremely influential. In it Four survivors escape from an abandoned police station by shooting their way out through a mass of goons. Tarentino/Rodri guez borrowed it in From Dusk til Dawn, Gamble riff ed on it in Jus in Bello and Carver also uses it and hearken to the earlier work with a very Carpenter like shot of a mass of station are goons watching the building. English masse. It's a classic Carpenter shotm he use it in Assault on Precinct 13 and Prince of Darkness.

I repeat if it were a good plan Sam wouldn't have been immediately infected and have to defend himself with killing.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 01:39
That isn't a very good analogy though. I agree it was a good movie. But none of the "goons" were innocent people that could potentially be saved. Again Dean agreed with the plan. It may have been Sam's idea but Dean thought it was a good one too. And when does any plan by either brother go off without a hitch. Dean is out there with whatever the hell the baby might be. And Sam is infected with rabies. Sounds par for the course.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 01:45
It's the visual reference that Carver made because that's the way to deal with that situation. The numbers were against them.

Sam feels guilty and responsible, as he should,
and Dean surprisely let's Sam sacrifice himself because he's laser focused on saving the Darkness 'baby.

Yes it would be great to save whenever they can but this wasn't a demon tied to a tree that could be exorcised. This was a mob with intent to infect and probably kill the baby.

But hey. We watch the show differently.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 01:55
"Oh you kids today with your blasting your way out of zombie situations and murder...and texting, let's not forget texting."
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 02:06
You are right we do watch the show differently. I think Carver was going for a Jus in Bello scenario. Where Dean came up with a better plan than Sam's (which was to consider Ruby's plan). Dean let all the demons in the jail, trapped them, shot as many as he and Sam and the rest could with rock salt and then played Sam's exorcism to save everyone. He didn't just mow them down. There was absolutely no guarantee that Dean's plan would work. Everyone could have died. But Dean's mission was to save the people or die trying. After all he wasn't going to let Nancy show him up. If she was willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good he certainly was going to give it a shot. Those were the days weren't they. Of course it didn't work in the end. Everyone died anyway. Like I said their plans always seem to have a hitch.
That was my take on the siege. And Carvers re set of the series. Save the people like Dean did in the jail not just plow through them with little to no regard.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 10:30
I love the Jus in Bello analogy Cheryl. It makes a lot of sense.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 02:32
So, riddled with guilt at removing the mark or he'd have been riddled with guilt for not removing the mark. Sam was the one who knelt and bared his neck to Dean's scythe to stop the Darkness from being released. Dean was the one who didn't go through with it. Both share guilt and responsibility. However, Sam's guilt and responsibility lets him see that things needs to change, and to do things in such a way that they won't feel guilty or responsible because they'll have done nothing that necessitates them feeling guilty or responsible. Dean's way of dealing with guilt and responsibility is doing the exact same thing again.

Sam's plan was a good one in that it achieved the aim; getting the baby and the officer out of the hospital unscathed and without killing all the infected. Was there going to be potential repercussions? Of course. It's part of the job. However, there was no difference in Sam's actions here than there was in Wendigo back in season one, when he distracted the monster and put himself between it and the people he was trying to save.

And those infected are not necessarily mindless killers who need to be killed, they can be spoken to and reasoned with. We saw that with Amaras father.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 04:17
Once again for the cheap seats: Whether SAM DIED OR NOT would have had nothing to do with the release of The Darkness. DEAN KILLING DEATH had nothing to do with whether or not The Darkness was released. The ONLY thing that caused The Darkness to be freed was the SPELL CAST THAT REMOVED THE MOC from Dean's arm. The MOC was both LOCK AND KEY. If Sam's BOTD CURE hadn't been successful then said biblical consequence aka The Darkness would have STAYED IMPRISONED. The Darkness being freed lies on Sam, Rowena, Crowley and Cas. Dean had nothing to do with it. That's why I said that if The Darkness ever thanks Sam then she owes the rest of Team Free Stupid all fruit baskets. Dean's not going thru with it DID NOT release TheDarkness. What it did mean and that he was fully aware of was that by killing death he was damning himself and Sam to the progression of the MOC, hence the apology. Dean did not know the spell was being cast.

If I recall that was Dean's plan to distract the Wendigo to enable Sam to get the others out. And ooh lookey there, shoot first, ask questions later murderous Dean killed it too.

The rabids that were attacking Sam didn't look too chatty to me. Maybe it will turn out that some are able to be saved or are partially immune later but all it takes is one to kill or infect you. In Croatoan if you were infected they were going to take you out first. The only time Sam threw a card was when they weren't sure if Dwayne was infected or not. He was perfectly fine with Dean wasting the woman that was.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 05:05
Once again, for those who assume they know everything, you don't know that, and your constant use of capital letters as some attempt to present yourself as some sort of an authority on the subject doesn't take away from the fact that your theory (and that's all it is, a theory) is no more or less valid than any other theory presented here.

If it was just a matter of stopping Dean from continuing to kill indiscriminatel y then Death could just have done what Sam and Dean did with Doc Benton and encased him in concrete underground. Dean presumably told Death that Sam was looking for a cure, and even if he didn't Death knows Sam enough to know that he would be. Dean certainly knew that Sam was looking for a cure. Deaths solution to send Dean into space raises the possibility that proximity is an issue ie that even if there was a cure, Dean would physically be beyond the reaches of getting it.

Yes, so distraction works. And when the Wendigo found the survivors, Sam risked himself to save them. As he did here, risked himself to save others. Because as Sam is trying to get Dean to understand, it's not just about them. It's about saving other people. However, 11 seasons have gone by. They now have the knowledge and often the means to save rather than just kill. They just choose to not do it. If Sam and Dean had the ability to cure demons and vampires and werewolves then that's another way to save people. If that were a demon and not a Wendigo, wouldn't the best course of action have been an exorcism and not a demon blade? The same applies to your Croatoan example, Sam and Dean aren't the same as they were then so the end result doesn't need to be the same. It will only be the same if they choose not to try and save them.

I'm not sure what the point of your 'Oh looky...... murderous Dean' comment was. I'm criticising Dean for killing. Sometimes killing is necessary in order to save, but sometimes it's not. Sam's point, and my point, is that it is time to think about saving people, and that can also be established by not killing. But don't worry, there are still 22 episodes of the show left for Dean to kill whoever and whatever he wants. I don't expect Sam's words or request to have a lasting impact on Dean.

Yes, all it takes is one infected to kill you, or one vampire, or one demon, or one werewolf etc but Sam and Dean hunt anyway. If Sam and Dean were so concerned about their lives then they wouldn't hunt at all.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 06:03
It is not conjecture, theory or fan fiction, it is canon. The only thing that freed The Darkness was the cure lifting the MOC, or as Death himself referred to it, the "lock and key" from Dean which released The Darkness into the world. Killing Death had nothing to do with its release. All Dean's killing Death meant and the reason he did so was so that he wouldn't have to go thru with killing Sam. . Death was Dean's ticket out of his situation. Dean agreed to willingly bear the MOC for eternity so that The Darkness would forever stay imprisoned even tho he would have to do so on another planet. Because Dean killed Death that relocation wasn't going to happen but that did not release The Darkness. Not killing Sam did not release The Darkness. The cure lifted the MOC which meant no more lock and key and so.... The Darkness. Go back and watch more carefully, read the transcripts or whatever. It's not my belief in my so called authority as you so eloquently put it, or my opinion, it is canon. And some might say common sense... Carver made sure that it was repeated four times in the episode, so that the point was made clear and driven home.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 06:27
I didn't say killing Death released the darkness. I said that killing Sam might have prevented the darkness from being released. I presented that if Dean was on another planet then the cure might not had worked as he would have been too far away for it to take effect. It is an interpretation of what was presented. Just as what you state is canon, is merely another interpretation of what was presented. It's a television show, it doesn't tell you what to think.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 07:18
As the scene was presented, in other words canon, Sam did not die so that is irrelevant to what did occur. What you are speaking of falls under the category of an alternate universe or I wonder what might have happened if, or wishful thinking. What I am talking about is what actually occurred on screen which was the MOC being lifted by the cure at that moment in time which released The Darkness. You said that is my interpretation, it is not, it is canon. Maybe you should educate yourself on what canon means. Or as I said research or read the transcript.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 07:22
It's not irrelevant to a 'discussion'.

And while I'm reading up on canon, could you read up on 'interpretation '?
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 01:48
Maximum emotional carnage... so true. Kind of like what non demon Sam was going for in the Purge, deliberately hurting his brother because he saved his life without intentionally risking others. Lucky for Sam that human Dean tends to Purge his emotions with hunting.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-11 02:34
You mean saving his life by the non-consent possession by that Angel and the torture to remove him and where Sam was used to kill Kevin ,then being told his brother would do it all again.
I can certainly see where Sam had no grounds for his words in the Purge and how mean he was to poor Dean.

And just so you know my feelings for what Dean did to Sam a very strong so it is best to leave it there .
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 02:37
There wasn't much different in what Sam said in this episode and in The Purge. The core message was the same; things need to change. The main difference is that in The Purge he overestimated Dean's willingness to actually listen to Sam. Perhaps that was because of the mark or perhaps that's just Dean now, I don't know.

And Dean did risk others, he risked Sam. And he risked Kevin.

And Sam would be lucky if Dean purged his emotions with just hunting. Unfortunately he doesn't.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 02:38
There wasn't much different in what Sam said in this episode and in The Purge. The core message was the same; things need to change. The main difference is that in The Purge he overestimated Dean's willingness to actually listen to Sam. Perhaps that was because of the mark or perhaps that's just Dean now, I don't know.

And Dean did risk others, he risked Sam. And he risked Kevin.

And Sam would be lucky if Dean purged his emotions with just hunting. Unfortunately he doesn't.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 02:39
There wasn't much different in what Sam said in this episode and in The Purge. The core message was the same; things need to change. The main difference is that in The Purge he overestimated Dean's willingness to actually listen to Sam. Perhaps that was because of the mark or perhaps that's just Dean now, I don't know.

And Dean did risk others, he risked Sam. And he risked Kevin.

And Sam would be lucky if Dean purged his emotions with just hunting. Unfortunately he doesn't.
Psg
# Psg 2015-10-11 02:16
I love that line Alycat. I riff on it too.
Marie the know nothing about the Darkness. If Sam is cured it will be because of Supernatural help. Sam could not possibly come up with a cure in this short time for an unknown supernatural phenomenon by himself. See he immediately was bitten and infected because it was not a good plan for that situation.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 03:59
One way to get to know about the darkness is to not kill everyone infected with the Darkness. One way to save people is to not kill people. And of course Sam will be cured by supernatural means, that's the way it has always been so that's not exactly a big deal. There's nothing to stop Sam from using those supernatural means to save others infected.

And you don't know that Sam can't come up with a cure in a short period of time. He's pretty resourceful. And while we know that he doesn't die (because TV show), if he did then at least he'd have tried and he'd go out still trying to save people, not just killing things.
Psg
# Psg 2015-10-11 02:40
Marie. Carver the way the Darkness is released FOUR times in his script. The Darkness was released when the Mark was removed. This was Sam’s plan that he worked on all season regardless of everything telling him it was a bad idea.

Sam dying or not had nothing to do with it because Sam had already set his plan into motion.

Sharon, there was no MOL file telling Dean that Gadreel was Ezekiel, or that Metatron would manipulate him into killing Kevin. However he did save Cas and, Charlie. .. so I guess that decision is still plus 1 life... lol.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 04:23
The darkness is the main storyline for season 11, it's not surprising it was mentioned more than once.

Everyone didn't tell Sam it was a bad idea. It was agreed by everyone (Dean included) that the mark needed to be removed. Dean was delighted when they found the BotD, he started planning ahead and everything. It was only when Dean got a bad vibe from the book that he didn't want Sam using the book. (Shades of season 4 again, Dean wants the end game but doesn't want the action). There was no alternative plan, there was just Dean giving up (shades of season 5, ala Michael. Dean's 'plan' is to give up and let everyone else deal with the mess).

A 'plan' was necessary from the moment Dean took the mark from Cain. Would there have been a need for the Mark to be removed if Cain still wore it? No. The Darkness would still be locked away. However, if Dean had killed Sam perhaps the mark wouldn't have been removed, perhaps Dean would have been too far away for the spell to have an impact.

Dean, as we saw from season 9 when he took on the mark, has the restraint if a young pup when it comes to killing. He enjoys it too much to want to stop and the mark gave him the freedom to kill on a mass scale. Dean was a biblical disaster of epic proportions (as Cain originally was) and that is entirely on Dean.

In relation to Ezekiel/Gadreel and what Dean didn't know, if I put a loaded gun in the hands of a child I don't know they're going to kill someone, but I still know putting the gun there in the first place is wrong and I aware there could be consequences. Sorry Psg, Dean doesn't get to play dumb on this one as well.

It's interesting about Charlie. She was alive when she shouldn't have been, and now she's dead. I guess the universe does balance itself out.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 06:11
Good Lord, don't bother, Psg. Logic is wasted. Just nod your head and agree. Dean very bad, Sam always good. Common sense need not apply.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 06:33
At no stage did I, or anyone, say that Dean is all bad and Sam is all good. (Though I'd advise you to look back on your own posts and the posts of some of your peers to see how one character is always presented as all bad and the other as all good). And logic isn't logic simply because you state it to be. Everything on the show is up for interpretation and discussion. You're not an authority, so perhaps you should stop acting like one. If you don't want to engage in discussion then don't, but rolling your eyes and scoffing because some posters don't agree blindly with what you say is pretty childish. Perhaps in lieu of what you decide is common sense, you should trying some common decency in your replies.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-11 07:20
Canon. Google it.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-11 06:37
I think common sense and logic is not the issue and to reduce it to such basics is rather silly,opposing pov,s are inevitable and should not be reduced to a lack of logic or common sense .
Nobody thinks it is as simple as Dean bad and Sam always good but neither is it a case of Sam always bad and Dean always good which is also a impression that can come across from certain fans .
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 10:51
Alycat, I'm honestly surprised that you addressed this remark to PSG. Every single post of hers is riddled with references to how awful Sam is, how he's caused all of the suffering and misery in the world. If Sam were to actually get in the lab and cure the Darkness sickness, PSG would carp about the fact that heart disease kills more people, so why wasn't Sam working on THAT instead. I've never read posts that were so consistently extreme in character hate on the one hand, and character worship on the other, so why don't you direct your comment to her as well? Because she's a Dean girl? Her posts have spurred this whole Dean vs. Sam thread, which I regretfully have been baited into participating in (even though I love Dean as well as Sam). You seem to be friends with her, so maybe you should aim the same comment at her. What could have been a fun and interesting discussion/deba te about a great episode has degenerated largely due to PSG IMO.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 14:06
Alycat22, please save the passive aggressive crap for other forums
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 02:49
Alycat, I know right. Biblical disasters of global proportions pretty much means loads of folks die and it's on you Sam Winchester since you didn't care about the aforementioned consequences.
Characters dealing with the consequences of their actions was a big deal to Carver lady season and obviously this one too since Sam is getting one huge wake-up call. Hey but at least Dean isn’t a demon. He's just the, Darkness'boytoy .
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 02:51
Alycat, I think pretzels cooked in holy oil would sell better. :)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-11 03:28
Quote:
Also, if Sam thinks they should start changing now, then why did he lie to Dean when he called? Why didn’t he tell him that something was wrong? Because he knew that Dean would forget about saving the baby and come after him. But is the lie really changing things?
Maybe because he is worried about which angel or demon Dean is going to shove inside Sam.Trusting Dean in such situations has lead to Sam losing his bodily autonomy .So it was a good decision as it lead to Dean focusing on saving the baby and Sam not losing his bodily autonomy.

Agree with you about the title card.It was not something spectacular.
Also agree with you about why the infedarked people did not kill Sam as they came to know that he was one of them and he put two and two together and went to a mirror to confirm.

Now as many are telling it is a two parter ..but this episode did raise some questions...qui te interesting ones .... Hope one or two are answered in the next episode and remaining ones are slowly revealed.
Not eagerly waiting for the next episodes like the first five seasons ..but am mildly interested in the next episode.

castiel's fight scene and the chased by bullet scenes were meh ...But the other scenes were good.
Crowley's pre orgy scene was over acted by the three other participants(ma ybe TPTB wanted it over the top).Crowley actress was good. and the final crowley scene was also good.
Was waiting for your review and it was worth the small waiting period.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 12:17
Cheryl42, Dean had access to all four Horseman rings. He could have opened the cage at any time. He didn’t because that would damn the world and even Sam wasn't worth the risk. Feeling responsibility towards the lives of others is part of Dean. He doesn’t risk the lives of others knowingly when planning his actions. It has nothing to do with whether he lover Sam or not. It has everything to do with why he's a hero.
It's fundamentally wrong to put your needs ahead of the greater good. It's morally wrong not to care about the body count or collateral damage of your plan. Anyone that cares about human life would nor have taken the risks that Sam did.
I Don’t understand how this basic concept can be missing from any discussion of Sam’s willingness to save Dean at any cost. That’s not responsible behavior and definitely not heroic behavior. It's highly dysfunctional behavior.
This has nothing to do with hating Sam. He crossed a line in the sand that should never have been crossed.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 14:08
I think it was established that they no longer worked (much like the Colt after the Gates had been closed. Remember Sam tried but it wouldn't work). And even if theoretically they did all that would happen would be that Dean would get sucked in too.

I was just reading some of the quotes from Torcon this morning and the J's actually said something that I found so appropriate to this marathon discussion. First Rule in SPN is Don't Discuss SPN. This is very much politics and religion. No one is ever going to agree because each person is dead certain that they are right. It's an endless merry-go-round and I can see by several posts above and below it has gotten pretty nasty. I am not the WFB police but everyone may want to take a breath. This isn't ever going to be resolved so probably should let it go.

Not really the kind of spirit that Jensen and Jared want to promote with their show but I find it amusing that they understand their fans.

from Fangasm
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 12:28
Marie, if you cannot follow the spoken dialogue please read the transcript. Dean had nothing to do with the Darkness being released. That was Sam’s plan abd he coerced his cohorts to help.
Dean vehemently told Sam and Cas not to do it. This is a rehash of Sam and Ruby where Sam thinks he knows better than Dean and oops! Lucifer is released and DARKNESS IS RELEASED by Sam's actions.
Dean said they would look for other actions. There was no urgency.
If you don't understand the words that are written in the script I really don't want to discuss the show with you. It's like Supernatural 101. Sorry. Learn the canon. Read the trabscripts.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-11 12:48
Dean created the situation so he was not exactly in a position to dictate anything. And lets be honest the other way round Dean would of used the Book without hesitation if it rid Sam of the mark.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 15:48
Quote:
And lets be honest the other way round Dean would of used the Book without hesitation if it rid Sam of the mark.
Good point Sharon. I agree.
Marie
# Marie 2015-10-11 13:03
Psg, then don't discuss the show with me. Both you and AlyCat22 seem to be entirely unfamiliar with different interpretations of what is shown and are utterly hostile to the idea of differing opinions, instead resorting to cheap, snide comments. Is this the formula you use when you write for TVFTROU? Also, if you could follow the spoken word you'd have heard how of the the word 'we' was spoken in 11.01 in reference to responsibility. But I imagine, for you, 'we' means 'everybody but Dean'. Also, Amara thanks Dean for freeing her. That's also canon and in the transcript.

I've already gone through Sam's actions with another poster, and pointed out they were nothing different to anything he and Dean had done before. You probably missed it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-11 15:34
Sam knew better than Dean.
If you watch that season again ..you will see both Dean and Sam wanted to kill Lilith...The problem he had with sam was him going with Ruby.But itseems many Dean fans are just hurt that Sam was right.Dean was not powerful enough to kill Lilith ..and was taken on a ride by the angels.Poor fans , must have been heart shaattering to know that Dean was not powerful like the angels told him...they lied so that they could Dean on board.And it worked.
Dean broke the first seal ,Dean took on the mark.Sam broke the last Seal and Rowena (who was in sam's team) cast the spell to remove the mark.
If Sam ended the procedure for getting Lucifer ,Dean started the procedure.That honor goes to Dean and Dean alone.
Transcripts only say a part about what happened ..inflection is very very important.Thing is I am surprised that it is lost on a person who writes for a website.Maybe there are some 101s you missed.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 12:45
Dear Marie, Here is the transcript for NY Brother's Keeper. Jeremy Carver wanted there to be no confusion about why the Darkness was released. He put it in the script FOUR times. That’s a lot of repetition. Darling I a feeling that he did it for you.
There us a transcript for every episode of Supernatural.
If you read all of them from the second half if season 10 you will see that Sam decided he would use the BotD. He exaggerated Dean’s condition. .. I say this because he gave no concrete examples as to why he thought this, and his body language as he convinced his friends to help was that of a luar. He doesn’t look in their eyes and he fidget uncomfortably. Whatever. Then we see Sam loose control of things. We see him make terrible decisions like working with Rowena and giving her a powerful codex that he basically stole from the MOL causing someone's death. Nearly dying himself to get it. Charlie dies. Cas destroys his bond with heaven. Bobby is in the dighouse. Everything wasn't shown for funsies. It was shown so the viewer knew that Sam was on a bad road. Hell even Bobby told him to get clean with Dean. Just like in s 4 Sam lies to Dean and does things that he knows Dean will find wrong. It's far far worse than his behavior so we know the outcome will be far far worse than releasing Lucifer. Hey! It was!!!
Sam's story wasn't the story of heroically saving his brother. It was the story of a man who selfishly pursued a path that put his friends and the entire world at risk. He ignored all of the signs because he didn't care who was hurt by his actions. And at the end of the story, before causing the release of the very bad thing, he vehemently declares that he doesn’t care about the consequences. He will deal with the later. Poor Sammy doesn’t like the "later" in this story.
It was a great ride. Perfect for a horror show for a main character to become a veritable monster. Too bad you missed it all.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 12:46
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=10.23_Brother%27s_Keeper_(transcript)

I think I forgot to post this for Marie. It's the transcript for MBK.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 12:56
Nk... Dean isn’t responsible for Sam’s actions. Sam is responsible for Sam’s actions. Unless Sam is some marionette that Dean operates.

Dean was stupid not to hear Cain out. Of course we Don’t know what Cain considered to be the curse or burden. Biblically speaking cain's curse was that he couldn't be killed. That may have been the downside for Cain. He did tell Dean he wanted him to kill him

Dean told Sam not to use the, BotD multiple times. Good lord the spell required a human sacrifice. Of course it's not good! Just like drinking demon blood wasn't good m there's a serious morality issue that Sam seems Able to cross without any remorse or second guessing. I guess you all call this his lack of pov... lol.

The thing is we see Dean struggle with difficult decision like allowing Ezekiel access to Sam’s body. We see him suffer because of his actions, like kevin's death and we see him try to atone... sometimes in misguided ways driven by remorse and self hatred, like taking on a Mark so he can carry out a mission and do some good for the world.

Sam actually stepped into Dean’s shoes of remorse, guilt and, atonement in out of the Darkness m it was beautiful to see. Sorry y'all missed it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-11 15:20
Quote:
Just like drinking demon blood
watch the show again then maybe you will see the second guessing ..but you seem to be willfully blind.
Dean never wore those shoes, it was always sam .Sam has the courage to wear them ..Dean did not atone for breaking the first seal..Dean never atoned for getting Kevin Killed or for getting the mark .Dean killed a human who was innocent for his revenge.
By killing Franken boy Dean abdicated the position of a hero.Quote:
I guess you all call this his lack of pov... lol.
No..no I just call it you having selective memory.Why simply tell us what we think.Ask us what we think of your selective reporting of things happening on the show we will definitely give our POV.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 13:37
The lightening is created by the BotD spell after telling human sacrifice sanctioned by Sam. The lightning emanates from the bowl 7 sedan for the spell, hits Dean’s arm removing the Mark, then shoots into the sky. From the sky it shoots into the ground and the smoke erupts. There is no room for interpretation honey. None.

Death wants Sam killed so he won't try to save Dean. Apparently Death didn't know the spell was already in process.

Also Sam is responsible for his own actions. If you decide to kill me because you think I am mean to Sam is not my fault for saying what I believe. It's your decision. Ean is not his brother’s keeper he is not responsible for Sam’s decisions, his a tons or the consequences of those actions.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 14:14
CC come on. Please think about your posts. Now you are accusing Marie of wanting to "kill" you? Really. Maybe it is time to move on to another topic.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-11 15:12
You are SO right Cheryl. WAY past time. It has gone on for days and as usual it is a deadlock and people start to get nasty. I don't understand why there haven't been warnings. It is straight Sam vs Dean now instead of reasonable show discussion, which is always a no-win situation.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 14:17
Alycat is not passive aggressive. She's smart and funny.

Please tell me when Dean has done something that released a global big bad. Please tell me when Dean has done something that he knew would cause global harm after an MOL file and his brother provided evidence that there would be disastrous consequences. The comparison for what Sam has done twice because he refuses to listen to Dean and apparently does not care who dies does not exist. This far Dean hasn’t done that.

He has, dine things, that turned out poorly but at the time he believed he would suffer. Like selling his soul. Like getting the Mark. Like trusting an angel he thought he had vetted through Cas. An angel who had saved his life and spoken of their duty to humanity. In every instance he had minutes to make a decision. He didn’t have anyone handing him evidence that it was bad. But whatever. I really don't care if you completely miss the story.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-11 14:38
Cain handed him evidence but Dean was not prepared to listen , he did not have minutes he just did not care about the consquences . Same with the possession he was fully aware Sam would not want to be possessed but still went ahead because he wanted Sam alive , lets not make any pretence that Dean did not know what he was doing esp with the Mark.

Getting that was the cataylst for everything else that happened so yes I do think Dean as some culpability with what happened with the Darkness and its release.

No offence but you seem to have Dean so high up on pedestal that even God could not even reach him and it is just not realistic .
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 15:20
Smart and funny to you, abrasive and condescending at times to others.

So you like to make excuses for Dean's behavior, just as others make excuses for many of Sam's transgressions, of which there are many. But, since you asked a direct answer, I will provide a direct answer - some are in answer to your question, others are thoughts on some topics that have come up in this discussion thread.

1 - Dean sold his soul for Sam, went to hell, and ended up breaking the first seal; there wouldn't have been a 66th seal if the first seal didn't break.

2 - Dean went off in Season 5, willing to be Michael's vessel, knowing the collateral damage of the battle between Michael and Lucifer would be enormous.

3 - Dean violated his brother by shoving an angel in him, which directly led to Kevin's death. And, to top that off, he told Sam in The Purge that he'd do the same thing all over again

You know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church... And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it's the right thing. I'd do it again.

4 - Dean took on the Mark of Cain, with no interest whatsover in hearing Cain's warning, then has the nerve to complain about it to Sam by shifting some of the blame to Cain?

DEAN - Just like I can't strap on a time machine, go back, and tell Cain to shove that Mark up his ass or stop you from releasing the darkness.

CAIN - Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
DEAN - Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at "kill the bitch".

5 - Along with all the monsters, Dean killed a lot of humans in Season 10. Some may or may not have "deserved it" but I don't think Rudy deserved to die, and I sure as hell don't think Dean was in the position to be judge and jury. And yes, even though the vampire stabbed Rudy, that was all on Dean. So either the effects of the Mark of Cain weren't as bad as Sam was saying, which many have argued, in which case the argument that it was more Dean than the Mark of Cain when he killed all those humans. If that's the argument, it doesn't paint Dean in a very favorable light.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 15:19
...
JT
# JT 2015-10-11 16:22
Maybe because each writer tends to favor one brother over the other, the series tacitly encourages us to see the world through the eyes of either Sam or Dean. My theory is that which Winchester elicits our sympathy depends less on who he is than who we are. Not so different from real life, I guess. Of course, bi-bro fans like me tend to take a more "motherly" perspective. Warts and all, both my boys are perfect! :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 17:48
You're probably right JT. But while Sam is the character I most relate to, I do love Dean as well. They are both endlessly fascinating and sympathetic, warts and all!
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 18:21
Cheryl42. Of course not. It was a hypothetical comparison. If my posts angered someone enough to kill me, my death isn’t my fault. It's the fault of the person that pulled the trigger. Ergo Dean is not responsible for Sam’s choices either. Unless Sam is under mind control, only Sam is responsible for his actions. Capiche.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 19:00
CC the tone of your posts has turned really offensive. Please consider as a staff writer on this website how you are coming off. I am not being snarky when I ask that you please consider the tone and dialog you use when responding to others. It is a frustrating conversation for which there is no resolution. If you want to engage in conversation with others maybe try and not use condescending phrases or words like Kill me. Believe me I do capiche where you are coming from.

However you should be holding yourself to a higher standard as a writer for the site.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 18:24
NJ, Dean WAS the first seal. It's all in the grammar baby! Alastair broke Dean just like he broke many other seals.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 19:49
that is semantics; he was/broke the first seal, but wouldn't have been the first seal if John Winchester had broken first.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 18:26
Marie, I capitalized some things because I suspect you have some issues with reading comprehension in English. There are differences from facts based on plot that proceeds in a straight line from point a to point B and plot that hints at the outcome.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 18:31
Kevin is dead because Metatron wanted him dead. Rudy is dead because he went alone after a vampire nest. Dean didn’t kill him did he. Dean felt guilty that Rudy died, even with the Mark. However Rudy was dead regardless of whether Dean showed up or not. That camp was not letting him go.
I think Sam's body stack will catch up to Dean’s by episode 2 and every one of those people were inmocents. Suzie was innocent. Oskar was innocent, Charlie was innocent.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-11 19:56
So Dean bears no responsibility in Rudy's death? I find it hard to believe that you can say that without a :) or ;) . If a hostage negotiator was talking to someone who took a hostage and said, to hell with it, just shoot the hostage, the negotiator would bear some responsibility, would they not?

As far as Kevin goes, your argument is post hoc ergo propter hoc; it is a logical fallacy. Metatron may have wanted to him dead but may not have had the means or opportunity. Dean's actions either led to, or strongly contributed to (depending on your POV) Kevin's death. Just as Sam's actions strongly contributed to Charlie's death. At the time, the bunker was still a pretty safe place so Kevin was reasonably safe there. It only turned in to Grand Central Bunker in Season 10.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 01:00
Quote:
So Dean bears no responsibility in Rudy's death? I find it hard to believe that you can say that without a :) or ;)
'Dean is responsible for nothing ,Sam is' then after sometime
'WAAAH people say mean things about Dean and not about Sam.'
*turns around*.
'Dean is not responsible for anything ,Sam is.'This is the pattern I have seen.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-12 04:10
Oh please. Stop taking the high road, you act as if the same is never done around here. You aren't helping the situation with this kind of rhetoric either.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 04:38
I was never on a high road and never am on a high Road.but if makes easier for you to ignore this pattern , your wish.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 18:35
SamandDean10, How was MoC Dean such a snooze if he was an out of control killing machine that needed to be stopped immediately. Oh yeah... he wasn't. It was Dean angsting. Lol.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 19:03
Thanks for the heads up. I am trying to be funny but I guess it comes across wrong.
I can’t wrap my head around the fact that you all are okay with Sam agreeing to human sacrifice. How can that be okay.
And yet Dean refers to commit human sacrifice, even with the Mark, and everything is his fault.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 22:04
...
PSG
# PSG 2015-10-11 19:10
Alycat I used all caps to highlight points. I am the one that supposedly believes I have the authority. Hey... I am just a fan that generally writes well and has studied literature, art and film.

You my dear are the one with the abrasive snark.

Marie, I did not mean to offend you. I assumed that you are one of those fans whose ferls, get in the way with paying attention to the dialogue. I mean they explain it 4 times then show it happening. I also assumed that you didn't bother to read the transcript.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-11 19:29
On second thought I will assume you didn't mean me.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 19:32
Cheryl42 you are very civil. Someone said that Alycat wasn't funny. Rather she used obnoxious snark.
I am out of here.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 00:43
Quote:
I am out of here.
:D:D:D:D:D:D
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 00:56
Quote:
Someone said that Alycat wasn't funny.
and what is the problem in that?Now are they supposed find people who they do not find funny just because you said so.
Well reviews on some site ...and well some people think they are good.The sheer arrogance.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-12 04:12
I'm frickin adorable. ;)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 04:35
yes,;)
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 19:58
NJ. Nope. Not semantics. These are professional writers and old enough to have studied grammar in grade school. They know that which they write.

Furthermore it was clearly Alastair's duty to break the first seal. He them proceeded to break many others. It's funny how it all fits beautifully when it is canon.

As for John. .. our only source for that is Alastair. The fact that he escaped hell so easily in AHBL2 indicates that this is a lie as well as the fact that Michael went back in time to protect his OT vessel in TSRTS. Dean was the righteous man mot John.

But whatevet. At least Dean didn't sanction human sacrifice.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 20:38
PSG I wasn't going to dignify any more of your posts with a response because, frankly, I had decided that you are a troll who is just trying to stir up discord on WFB. But even for you, this assertion is too rich to ignore:

Quote:
As for John. .. our only source for that is Alastair. The fact that he escaped hell so easily in AHBL2 indicates that this is a lie as well as the fact that Michael went back in time to protect his OT vessel in TSRTS. Dean was the righteous man mot John.
Here you have been instructing people to read transcripts ad nauseam, telling people that all of your claims and "facts" (and I use the term quite loosely) are in accordance with canon, and you have even cast aspersions on Marie's grasp of the English language and her ability to comprehend what she is seeing on her TV screen. (when in fact her comments have been well-reasoned and beautifully written, while your disjointed ramblings have made me wonder if English is your second language). Yet now when njspnfan actually refers to honest to God canon to rebut your claim that Dean was the first seal, you say that Alastair was lying!!! So canon is ONLY canon if we first ensure that PSG believes the character was speaking the truth. Beyond the staggering hypocrisy of your statement, it is just so preposterous that I'm now firmly convinced you are a troll.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 00:42
Quote:
These are professional writers and old enough to have studied grammar in grade school.
Yes and all professionals are perfect at their job.lol.Quote:
As for John. .. our only source for that is Alastair.
No more reliable than Castiel but not less.

Sometimes when you wish for thing to be true we get selective memory and assign selective weight to things that we see .But that yeah for a person who has degree in english is simply immune to all these things.:DOh and multiple graduate degrees:D:D
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-12 13:57
ok, so Alistair was lying about John Winchester but not about Dean.... so when canon does not agree with your view of Supernatural thru Dean-colored glasses, it is a lie.

Since you enjoy bringing up canon, here is the conversation.

ALASTAIR - You know, it was supposed to be your father. He was supposed to bring it on. But, in the end, it was you.
DEAN Bring what on?
ALASTAIR Oh, every night, the same offer, remember? Same as your father.
DEAN shakes salt onto the blade of Ruby's knife.
ALASTAIR And finally you said, "Sign me up." Oh, the first time you picked up my razor, the first time you sliced into that weeping bitch... That was the first seal.
DEAN You're lying.
ALASTAIR And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell. As he breaks, so shall it break.
DEAN turns away.
ALASTAIR We had to break the first seal before any others. Only way to get the dominoes to fall, right? Topple the one at the front of the line.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-12 15:05
i will not stand by while you disparage Dean this way ;););) Dean's words in 5.05 Fallen Idols

DEAN Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 20:06
NJ, Dean felt plenty guilty for Rudy however it is not a valid example of Dean being all kill crazy and out off control, necessitating Sam’s desperation.

Now sanctioning human sacrifice is a sign of being on the wrong path and out of control. UT you all seem to think that's what loving brothers do for each other.

Dean told Rudy to go home because he would get killed.
Sam had Charlie come out of hiding which put herself in harm's way.
Again which brothere wasn't thinking Clearly. Which brother was out of control. Which brother didn't care about collateral damage.

Which brother is getting a redemption arc.
Which brother still has the mytharc.

Which brother refused to perform the human
sacrifice Death requested.

Which brother insisted his team perform the human sacrifice the BotD required more quickly.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 00:38
Quote:
Sam had Charlie come out of hiding which put herself in harm's way.
Charlie offered to look after the book that got her killed.While Sam's choices are choices according to you...loks like Charlie's choices are also sam's responsibilities.
Dean killed Rudy..what he siad to Rudy means zilch.

Sam prays to god, Sam atones for his sins, he takes responsibility for his part and acts on finding a solution to the problem.Dean says sorry and he is done.Dean never redeems himself for his crimes .That is what is the problem with the character Dean.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-11 21:00
Not a troll luv. Have a degree in English luv... and multiple graduate degrees luv.Demons lie luv.The show has been very clear about framing Sam as a tragic hero twice, with a tragic flaw that leads him to cause disaster. I nearly majored in classics.
Your sad attempt to insult me makes me laugh, as does ... well everything you say.
Spoiler: you do know that Sam prays to god for help because it's his fault. Maybe don't watch next week.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-11 22:51
Quote:
Demons lie luv.
Thanks for the heads up cupcake. You know who else lies? Angels, people and other assorted creatures. So under the rules of canon according to PSG that means canon is comprised solely of the events that we see on our screen since nobody's words can be completely trusted. Of course, some of what we have seen on our screens were visions, dreams and other assorted supernatural manifestations, so can we really even trust what we see? Oh that's right, it doesn't matter because we have YOU to tell us what is and isn't canon. What a relief!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 00:50
Quote:
Oh that's right, it doesn't matter because we have YOU to tell us what is and isn't canon. What a relief!
It's just Hubris.After all they graduated ...that too multiple graduate degrees.So she tells us common folks about what to think and what is canon.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-12 04:38
That's the second time that I have read (to this point at least) that you have made a personal attack on Psg in regards to her academic achievements and multiple degrees. I'm not sure why you feel this is really necessary unless maybe for some reason it makes you feel inferior or somehow inadequate in comparison. Personally unless a poster claims to be the Queen of England I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and not rudely throw it back in their face. But that's just me.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 08:40
Quote:
maybe for some reason it makes you feel inferior
Not really.It is just that her telling us about some graduate degrees she got and somehow the next sentence she talks abt Demons lying.Somehow that made her an expert in supernatural.So what is the connection.To make the conjecture that I am feeling inferior you should know my qualification .which you do not and you are not going to.:)
I do not know about anyones qualification and unless I have hard proof i do not believe in anything anyone claims.That is me.
And someone graduating in a english and other subjects does not make them an authority on supernatural.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-12 09:08
Quote:
That's the second time that I have read (to this point at least) that you have made a personal attack on Psg in regards to her academic achievements and multiple degrees.
I feel like the Godfather here ("Just when I thought I was out they keep pulling me back!") but I can't ignore this Alycat. Anon is mocking PSG because she apparently thinks her views should be accorded more respect than anyone else's due to her academic background. Actually she thinks that her views constitute the ultimate authority on SPN. And that from someone who has been obnoxiously accusing others of having a poor grasp of the English language and an inability to understand what they see on SPN. This, all because people have different interpretations of the show. If people don't have differing interpretations then what the heck are we all doing here jabbering away? Anyway, Anon is right that most people don't give a crap about PSG's background, and it certainly doesn't confer some unassailable authority on her views. Should we all start attaching our resumes to our posts to see whose is the strongest? Honestly, I found it laughable when PSG referred to her degrees. I'm quite sure that she is NOT the only commenter holding both an English degree and a graduate degree.
And now I am really and truly getting off the hamster wheel..maybe;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-12 08:45
Quote:
Its just Hubris
:D
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-12 02:38
No relevance what so ever it does not make your reading of the show or Sam and Dean a authority. Your inability to see fault in Dean and just blame and fault in Sam in every given situation leaves your view open to question and refute.

Dean is not a non contributing factor in events that happen and regardless of whether Sam says it is his fault ( that is Sam) Dean does hold some blame as well and his fingers are just as deep in the pie. The Dean and Sam you want to present are not the ones others see including myself .
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-12 14:01
Alas, PsG views the world thru Dean-colored glasses. ;););););)
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-12 14:17
Oh I know that but I am glad to say I do not so no illusions about Dean or his behaviour and actions :)
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-12 14:17
sorry double post
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-12 14:35
Quote:
Dean-colored glasses
Excellent description! :D
Psg
# Psg 2015-10-11 21:04
I am writing on a phone. I make typos. So what.
Still afraid to read the transcript. Still dispute solid grammar. Still forget that Cas told Dean he was meant to be the first seal. Please. Silly silly wabbit.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 00:49
Quote:
Still afraid to read the transcript. Still dispute solid grammar. Still forget that Cas told Dean he was meant to be the first seal. Please. Silly silly wabbit.
Do not need to .When you neglect things told by some characters and give extra weight to others it has nothing to do with grammar .It just says how solid your understanding is. Cas and Alistair both said things. Both were right.John simply did not break, Dean did.John was better at escaping.The things that John knew are still secrets.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-12 01:01
So sorry that your mean girl teenaged schtick doesn’t work on me or Alycat. Clearly we hit a nerve or three. Your insecurity is showing.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 01:06
looks like I hit a nerve there.This is funny .:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-12 01:21
No actually I was just trying to prevent you from clogging the thread with your rants. It seemed immature and excessive.

I don’t care what you say because neither your behavior or commentary has earned my respect.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 01:56
Quote:
No actually I was just trying to prevent you from clogging the thread with your rants. It seemed immature and excessive.

I don’t care what you say because neither your behavior or commentary has earned my respect.
The sheer arrogance in this post.
Yeah but looks like I have struck a nerve.:D:D:D:D: D.Awwww you care for me.
I am clogging this thread with my rants?lol:D:D:D :D:D:D.Funny you telling me this.Rant?....ooookay
You dont respect me?:(:(:(:(:(Oh man my life's purpose is lost.NNNOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOO.Why god why?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-12 15:33
Don't give up Anonymous! Somehow you must soldier on!;)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-12 15:48
What can I say it is very disappointing.S he does not respect me.Maybe because I am a teenager.Or maybe because I think If Dean had not made the deal to get Sam back in season2 and simply killed Jake ..Dean would have not had to break the first seal and start the process of the apocalypse.But yeah RESPECT lost is making me so sad.
But what can I say I have a big heart. I can understand the pain of fans wanting a redemption story for Dean and not getting it.See even now even after 10 long seasons no redemption story for Dean.Now I know chances are slim that Dean will get redemptionstory for taking on the mark or for killing franken boy (so horrendous...Ju st a hero of the show killing an innocent..I digress).But I truly hope Dean gets a decent redemption story..that are 10 seasons worth you know...I hope the show runners do not disappoint me.The problem is I worry that in the need to just omit the part where Dean took on the mark..Dean killed an innocent (just monstrous) the fans just turn blind to the brilliant and rare Dean redemption story that's going to grace our television screens.
But thank you SanmandDean10 for your wishes.It's wishes like these that make me soldier on.
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-12 06:45
;)
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2015-10-12 08:46
Sometimes I feel like you & I should either do a roundtable discussion or a podcast review on these so we can entertain the readers by our agreement/disag reements. :D

Quote:
I love show, don’t tell. I want to hold onto it and curl up with it at night.




And that's been the problem from S9 on. Lots of telling, not much showing. (actually... they haven't even done much telling) Let's face it, world building, ground-rules laying, etc is NOT the time to be subtle. That IS the time to be obvious and forthright about things.0

Quote:
I also loved the return of sympathetic Sam and Dean, taking in every word with tender heartbreak of this very tragic situation. It’s facial acting and no two do it better. I swear somewhere down the road this show forgot that (probably lost in the sensationalized stories and dialogue-heavy exposition).
See above. The show forgot that because it had decided to not bother with showing any more (or much telling). See it's all related. Like a cascade...

Quote:
For one, I’m thrilled to see this talk happen. I wasn’t a pure fan of the whole idea that Sam and Dean in the course of saving each other over the last two seasons put other people’s lives above their own, intentionally or not.

x1000

Quote:
Also, if Sam thinks they should start changing now, then why did he lie to Dean when he called? Why didn’t he tell him that something was wrong? Because he knew that Dean would forget about saving the baby and come after him.
He lied? Ok at first I thought maybe he did but then I rewatched the scene and I actually think he wasn't lying. I think "I'll get infected, and I'll figure out how to cure." actually WAS part of Sam's plan. And yeah, I think Dean let him go along with it. Whether because he has faith Sam will figure it out or because some of that brotherly bridge is still singed a bit from last season I leave others to debate.

Quote:
I like the idea better than the disastrous “Anyone can be a Leviathan” plot from season seven, but at the same time, what could this one being do that’s so awful that she could only be contained by God and his archangels?
You take that back! That was an awesome plot! Just... not as tightly plotted as it could have been.

Quote:
What is this Darkness really?
A plot device.

Quote:
Is it a statement that we’re back to basics? I hope not.


Are you kidding? I hope so because right now the show is a lot like Baby at the end of season 1. They're going to have to strip her down and rebuild her basics to get her running and purring again. THEN they can take off and drive in any direction they please.

But first they gotta clean the wreck.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-12 11:50
Hey Alycat,, I only mentioned my background because... well... my writing was mocked. These kids with their texting and new forms of grammar less writing. Also never said I was an authority and frankly I missed when using capital letters for emphasis meant that. All I did was point out that JEREMY CARVER THE SHOW RUNNER made the effort to put that the Darkness would be released when the Mark was removed WHICH IT WAS BY THE BOTD SPELL; the spell that was insisted upon by Sam, required HUMAN SACRIFICE SANCTIONED BY SAM, and was shown to create lightening that removed the Mark from Dean's arm, went skyward and then released the smoke. If you believe that these facts are interpretation, well then I am sure you do think Sam was a big hero for saving his brother and you will mist likely not see the character's well earned redemption arc.

JEn! Fantastic post. The episode was very intriguing and full of hints that something isn't ad it appears. I think the baby and the woman are one and the same. I like your idea too. On IMBD Snow Leopard is wondering if both are actually God who had been missing since forever. Time will tell. I predict that things that seem obvious will not be. There will be twists y'all.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-12 14:04
No PsG, your writing was not mocked but it is clearly Dean biased... Just wish you could be objective and see this for yourself.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-12 14:06
Actually I prefer Dean goggles. I coined the phrase.

In s 4 and, s 10, if Sam had listened to Dean no Apocalypse. No Apocalypse 2.0.

They are better together, n'est-ce pas.

Never said Dean doesn’t make mistakes. They just don't involve literally releasing Lucifer to start the Apocalypse or releasing Darkness and unmasking creation. After all, God's first act was to part the Darkness... Let there be light.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-12 14:42
And if Dean had listened to Cain and not taking on the MOC in the irresponsible stupid way he did none of it would of happened.
PsG
# PsG 2015-10-12 14:21
Of course it is Dean biased. I am a smart Dean girl. Alice asked me to write for TVFTROU knowing full well I was a Dean girl and also because I was enthusiastic and insightful. And I actually have insights about characters other than Dean. I am interested in characters other than Dean. Hell I was r static when I realized they were repeating Sam's reluctant hero/tragic hero arcs in the premiere of season 8. The character desperately needs some growth. I predict great things for the character in season 11 and onwards. Of course one can only go up after sanctioning human sacrifice and undoing God's greatest work! Seeing Sam drop his situational ethics and become supportive of Dean’s special friendships... I have been dreaming of this moment since Saint Benny.

But sorry by using capitalized letters I was not declaring my authority. I only mentioned my background because a teen meanie tried to belittle my writing. And I will not back down as to the fact that there is no other interpretation than what is clearly outlined in the transcript FOUR TIMES for how the Darkness was released. Even Sam understood it and he only had it explained to him once...lol.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-12 15:08
no, but by using all caps and telling a poster that English must not be his/her first language, it was very condescending.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-12 16:49
....
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-12 18:17
Hey AlyCat here, aka passive aggressive, obnoxious snark or P.A.O.S for short. It was actually going to be P.A.O.S.A.C. but I left abrasive and condescending off as otherwise I'd just sound like a new drug on the market. Just so its made clear that I'm not singling anyone out, this is for everyone. For everyone that feels that CC was the one responsible for lowering the tone, being disrespectful, full of herself... who pointed out that after a full day of her dragging it out and causing tempers to flare that it was time to move the thread to a different topic... well you sure aren't practicing what you're preaching, are you?. I've seen quite a lot of snark and passive aggressiveness. ..(and according to y'all, I should know) being thrown her way. So maybe you should take your own advice, give it a rest and move the thread along. Just saying. Let us ALL (the caps are for emphasis, I'm not yelling - for those who seem to not be able to tell the difference...) wipe the froth off from our mouths and retire to our respective corners. We're just rehashing and getting more snippy and insulting and nothing good is going to come from it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-12 19:07
You are so right. Everyone is exhausted and tempers were flaring. It's funny that you mention the caps/yelling thing. I had a friend who talked in a very loud voice and when she emailed it was all in caps. She used to say she even yelled in email. It does look that way even if you mean it for emphasis. Specially when you add for those of you in the cheap seats.
I tried to appeal to CC as a staff writer to please help change the tone of the discussion. But deaf ears and all. My comment about the day and a half was really in the vein of everyone was getting so exhausted that tempers were really going to flare if the conversation didn't change and unfortunately they did. In no way did I imply that she was the only one dragging this out.
My last post was in response to CC who pointed out the she was a staff writer and that she please consider that she is entitled to her opinion but so are others. However her tone should carry more gravitas to help keep the discussion civil.
Having been bullied off the other site I know what it is like to have the least popular opinion. And I don't think I at least have been passive aggressive or disrespectful to you or CC in any way. Sorry if you got that impression.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-12 20:34
Cheryl you don't have to explain , I understand where you were coming from and what you were trying to accomplish. Cooler heads and all that and its appreciated. Thank you. I just thought I would try (among other things in my post) to call attention to the fact that anyone who had read your comment asking another for a change in their tone might benefit by applying the same to themselves. I was trying in my own way to join the fire brigade to help extinguish the flames. ;) Plus I look wicked cute in a firemans helmet!

Funny story about your friend and capitalization. I myself recently had a run in with someone on another board who was upset because I was YELLING AT HER and she felt the need to educate me on the finer points of Twitter etiquette. I had to tell her that sadly, capitalization was used for emphasis long before social media/Twitter was ever on the scene. ;)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-13 10:34
I confess, I haven’t read everything… But what I read… That would be hilarious, if it weren’t too sad. Since then has the God’s commandment "do not kill” been considered “foolishness”? And since then killing people because somebody thinks they are unworthy to live can be justified? Some people just seem to have forgotten, that all genocides in people’s history started, when somebody decided that some other people are unworthy to live. When reading this thread I decided that in our world The Darkness, as an amoral force has already been released and won. I’m sorry for a bitter remark, but…