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Sam, Dean, what did you do? Did you go and break the world again?

I gotta say, if "Brother's Keeper" did one thing (and trust me, it did many things), it gave us enough possibilities to keep us all happily speculating and theorizing for the next five months (yes, October is that far away). Far more possibilities have been raised than last year and I was freaking out this time last year. The whole can of mythological worms was opened, and between this and all the alternate dimension time travel dynamics I've had to absorb with "The Flash" finale, my mind is already blown.

Every character was on their A game and no wonder, because you won't get a better writer than the Carver. He is the man and gave us a chunk to take in. The direction and visual effects were stunning too, but do you expect any less from director Phil Sgriccia and Mark Maloche's VFX team? They brought their best, that's for sure. When given good stuff the actors really shine too, and Jensen, Jared, Misha, and Mark just killed it. The best outing from the whole ensemble we've had in a long time.

I wouldn't say the episode was perfect though. The first 15 minutes were a bit slow for me, save the first scene with Sam and Castiel. The rest of the episode more than made up for it though. But enough rhetoric, let's just jump to the burning questions.


I don't believe for a second that Death is dead. Death is a pretty smart dude and knows Dean Winchester all too well. He even acknowledged to Dean that he keeps getting burned by the Winchesters. Heck, I think that Death is grooming Dean to be the next him. While else would be put Dean through all these tests every time he sees him? There is no way Death would be dumb enough to bring the one scythe that would kill him and put it in Dean's hands. He had to know Dean would never kill Sam. In "In My Time of Dying" Tessa said that reapers can create illusions. If anyone can do that, it's the big guy. Death is technically a God and definitely a horseman, and we already know you can't kill a horseman. The other horsemen didn't die either. They just went off into obscurity.

Let's pretend though that Dean did indeed strike the final blow, if anything for amusement. What happens now when people die? Or can they? If "Supernatural" is willing to go there more power to them, but they have a lot to answer to by killing Death. I just don't see them going there.

What I want to know is why would Death have Dean kill Sam and not do the deed himself? There are three reasons I can think of off the top of my head: 1) Plot contrivance because it makes better drama, 2) Because Death is testing Dean for some unknown reason and Dean either passed or failed that test or 3) Because if Dean killed Sam, the Cain and Abel prophecy would be fulfilled and Dean's time on this earth would truly be done. It was the unspoken technicality to him going off to his new life.

Dismissing number one (only because this is Carver here - Ross-Leming and Buckner would have made that answer a yes), I'm inclined to go with number two. Death needs the Winchesters to clean up messes. Remember "Appointment in Samarra?" Remember how Dean had to be Death for a day before saving Sam? Death wanted him to find out what was happening to the souls as well as teach him a lesson. Or how about Death helping out Sam and Dean with that eclipse in "Meet the New Boss"? He warned them about the Leviathan (aka fight them). How about letting Sam go in "I Think I'm Gonna Like it Here?" Because Sam and Dean needed each other to fight corruption from the Mark of Cain (alright, I might be stretching with that one). And now, essentially letting Dean choose whether or not to let The Darkness out? Death could have easily grabbed Dean, zapped Sam and that would have been the end of it. It seems that whenever some terrible, evil force is about to infiltrate the earth, Death is turning to his go to guys and needs to be sure they're up for it together. Sure, he has a very strange way of going about it, but he's Death! Nothing is simple with the number one grim reaper. He gets bored.

I do see why Death would want Sam dead though. It became obvious in the very beginning scene. Sam made it clear that Dean was the only priority. He was dismissing any other warnings because no one was saying for sure what would happen. I suppose once you save the world from the Apocalypse, taking on other ramifications might seem like a cake walk. Castiel was leery of consequences, but followed Sam's lead anyway. So the big question of the episode (and really the whole season) is raised in the very opening. Who is the real evil?

I know Nightsky raised this whole issue in far greater detail in her article, and it's going to be something open to debate for a while, but my take on it is ultimately, this is the Winchester Gospel. It's the story of what happens when two brothers refuse to give up on one other. There are a lot of consequences, a lot of ramifications, a lot of upsetting the natural order. Some good comes out of it, but so does some bad.

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The whole confrontation in the Mexican restaurant gave us some hiatus fodder for discussion, but ultimately Dean said those things to break Sam's spirit and resolve. He was determined to get Sam to stop fighting and let go. Was Dean judging Sam by pointing out that not giving up in his brother was causing more harm that good? No more than he was judging that young dead girl he called a whore. It was the Mark of Cain, the corruption of evil inside. Just like a demon, that evil inside Dean exploited character flaws in an attempt to trigger the guilt and self loathing inside. After all, it's something Dean's foes have used on him quite a bit.

Sam though, he could see through it. Does he feel lousy about all that he's done? I'm sure he does. I'm really hoping that next season he does address his role in unleashing The Darkness on the earth. But he isn't the only one to blame. Dean is to blame by taking on the Mark of Cain in the first place and not knowing the true burden he was accepting. Castiel is to blame for not stopping Rowena despite his reservations. Crowley is to blame for helping with the plan. I'm certain Crowley had a far better idea of what could happen by removing the MOC than anyone. That's why I'm hoping we don't get any "you broke the world" guilt trips against Sam next season, especially from Dean. If the writers revert to that type of drama to kill time, I'm truly giving up on this show. Or I'll just severely blast them in a review. :)

This is season ten and by now I'm usually desensitized by everything this show throws at me. But tears were streaming my face when Sam was on his knees crying, putting his fate in big brother's hands. He was ready to die believing that Dean wasn't evil and would find his way back. Carver was clearly going for the parallels with "Swan Song" when Sam pulled out the pictures to remind Dean of his humanity, just as the army men toys in the Impala did for Sam back in the season five closer. I especially lost it when Sam wouldn't close his eyes, despite Dean telling him to do so a few times, looking at his brother with teary despair. Dammit, this show still knows where to hit me hard.

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I honestly believed that Dean would kill Sam and I wasn't buy his greater good talk at all. I figured Dean was corrupted enough where he would. I credit the show for building up to that over the season, constantly raising that doubt, especially when Dean did try to kill Sam in episode three. Cain's talk of Dean's evil prophecy helped too. I also have a lack of faith in this writing team where they would go there for the sake of shock value. But the fact Carver didn't was so much better an outcome and consistent with the theme of this show. I'm very, very glad they didn't go there.

Yes, we got some cliffhangers, but I think everyone will come through it. Crowley and Castiel will overcome their twisted situation. Sam, Dean and baby will survive the blast wave and then it's time to clean up the mess. This is where I get very concerned. The whole idea of unleashing The Darkness, the first evil, on the earth seems like a very ambitious plot to me. That's more biblical end of the world mythology than we've ever seen before. The problem is, are they going to follow through? I feel burned by all the angels falling to earth and nothing coming of it, or Demon Dean with the Mark of Cain being set loose on the world and that going out with a big whimper. What's to say that The Darkness won't end up like The Leviathan, living quietly among us and creating havoc slowly through food additives?

This is a low budget sci-fi show that only likes to address the big plots about six episodes a year. Unless these writers commit to following through the entire season, taking their leads from seasons four and five, I fear that season eleven will turn out to be yet another wasted opportunity. But for now I'll have this one to cling onto. The episode had all the goodness I expect from a season closer. Heck, I just fell in love with watching an engrossing, fluid story, something that I didn't see in last week's "The Prisoner." But I'm one that actually loves Jeremy Carver's scripts. The dialogue is always superior, the attention to detail is top notch, the stories are well constructed and he makes me cry. I still remain his bitch. Thank you sir.

Other Random Thoughts

Nice job of opening the show with the "Fan Fiction" version of "Carry on Wayward Son" before going onto the Kansas version. A very nice touch given it was closing season ten.

Glad to meet you Rudy. Sorry you’re dead within the first 15 minutes. Thanks for playing.

“Not my literal heart, feathers.” Ha! I LOVE that nickname for Castiel. I shall be using that quite a bit now. Anyone have a t-shirt of Castiel with "Feathers" on it yet?

Dean’s bluff with Rudy mirrors Soulless Sam letting the girl die in “The Man Who Knew Too Much.” Nice.

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Castiel and Crowley MUST have a lot of adventures together in season 11. Think of it, Heaven and Hell working together to fight a common enemy. They've always been so good together I've been disappointed that they've been separate all season. That scene where Castiel summoned Crowley was priceless. “Who summons me anymore. Can’t you call?” “You’re not on my contacts list.” Bwah! That is so Castiel.

Interesting the reveal that the Mark of Cain is what corrupted Lucifer and caused him to fall. The Darkness still found it's way to earth through him if you think about it. Maybe The Darkness is really evil that has long corrupted the earth? Now it's just in greater force? You think that maybe this will bring a return of the archangels? Gabriel at least? Please?

“Brother, I’m done.” Meep!

“A long, long a time ago there was an evil bitch, I mean witch.” Oh, how I've so missed the great Crowley lines this year.

“And there was that time you stood me up.” Ooh, bitter much Death?

Here's a snippet of that Sam and Dean conversation, just in case you need a good sucker punch to the gut:

Dean: Evil tracks us, and it nukes everything in our vicinity. Our family, our friends, it’s time we put a proper name to what we really are and we deal with it.

Sam: Wait a second, we are not evil. Listen, we’re far from perfect, be we are good. That thing on your arm is evil, but not you. Not me.

Dean: I let Rudy die. How is that not evil? I know what I am Sam. But who are you when you drove that man to sell you soul, or when you bullied Charlie into getting herself killed. And to what end? A good end, a just end? To remove the Mark no matter what the consequences, Sam, how is that not evil? I have this thing on my arm and you’re willing to let the darkness into the world.

Sam: You’re also willing to summon Death to make sure you could never do any more harm. You summoned me because you knew I would do anything to protect you. That’s not evil Dean. That’s not an evil man, that is a good man trying to be heard, searching for some other way.

Dean: No, there’s no other way Sam. I’m sorry.

Yeah, I'm not sure why Sam threw the first punch either other than Carver decided that Sam never throws the first punch, so why not? And yes, these Sam lines are just gold:

"You'll never, ever hear me say that you - the real you - is anything but good. But you're right, before you hurt anyone else, you have to be stopped at any cost. I understand. Do it."

"Wait, take these. One day, when you find your way back, let these as your guide. They can help your remember what it was to be good, what it was to love."

Excuse me.


Overall grade for this finale, an A. As I said, not the greatest finale, but as far as this very uneven season ten goes, "Brother's Keeper" easily one of the greatest. Time to spend five months over-speculating what we saw and what's to come! Good times for an SPN fan.


# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-23 17:55
I don't believe for a second that Death is dead.
I second that. I think Death kind of expected Dean to do that..

What I want to know is why would Death have Dean kill Sam and not do the deed himself?
Payback for them effing up the natural order?

But tears were streaming my face when Sam was on his knees crying, putting his fate in big brother's hands.
The only time I've cried was when Sam had to shoot Madison. *blinks away a few specs of tears* So sad >_< I actually saw that scene before I started the show. First watched that in the anime version then curiosity drove me to see the live action. Oh gosh how I cried for a character I didn't even know!

The whole idea of unleashing The Darkness, the first evil, on the earth seems like a very ambitious plot to me.
Quite so. The budget is my worry. They really could do with a higher budget! I mean I DO like the idea of the first evil being released but not with a low budget.

Glad to meet you Rudy. Sorry you’re dead within the first 15 minutes. Thanks for playing.
Me "OOOH Its Rudy!"

After he dies

Me: "Oh.. :("

Sam, Dean and baby will survive the blast wave and then it's time to clean up the mess
Survive as it totally unaffected? What do you mean? Just physically?
# Gwen 2015-05-23 19:21
I loved the finale. It wasn't perfect but I thoroughly enjoyed it from start to finish, it didn't bore me (unlike last year's finale which I thoroughly disliked), it left me intrigued and eager to tune in again in the autumn and it made me cry. It's always a good episode, imo, if it makes me cry. :D

That brotherly scene is up with the Sacrifice church scene as my absolute favourites of the entire series. Dean's "Sammy, close your eyes" and Sammy's tears, Sam on his knees looking up to his brother waiting to die, willing to sacrifice himself...well, that just about did me in. I cannot stop replaying that scene. That zig zag tear and then "Sammy, close your eyes" will probably haunt me for a good long while. I hope Jared feels very proud of his work, he should be, he was amazing. Jensen was wonderful too. The acting was incredible in this episode. Jared and Jensen are class acts.

I was so happy that Sam saved Dean. I loved all the brotherly love. Loved Sam's unwavering faith in Dean's goodness, his unwavering determination to save Dean. I am so happy that the MOC is gone. I can't wait to see old Dean back again, I have missed him so much. My biggest hope for S11 is that we get the boys back together again, fighting the darkness (however that issue manifests itself) together and with no more conflict and fighting and blame. Like you I definitely don't want any more guilt trips being dumped on Sam.

Loved seeing Death again and I was very pleased to have it confirmed that he was actually there ready to reap Sam in 9.01. I too don't believe that Death is dead, the guy surely has got some plan up his sleeve.

I enjoyed the scenes between Crowley and Castiel , they make a fun pairing and I am so happy that Rowena is still alive. For a long while I didn't like her at all but she's become one of the highlights of S10 for me.

The Darkness intrigues me and I'm looking forward to seeing how this storyline is handled next season, albeit with some trepidation - I remember being excited about the Leviathans and that didn't turn out so good after all. I kind of loved that the last word of the episode was Sam yelling 'Dean!' as the darkness engulfed them.

Definitely a Grade A from me. I've had my ups and downs with S10 but this finale has me very much looking forward to s11.
# anonymousN 2015-05-24 03:12
That's why I'm hoping we don't get any "you broke the world" guilt trips against Sam next season, especially from Dean. If the writers revert to that type of drama to kill time, I'm truly giving up on this show. Or I'll just severely blast them in a review. :)
This is the reason why I do not have much opinion abt the season finale. It is not the situations which they put the brothers in that make me angry..because they are all wonderful setups.
Granted some of them fizzle .But the thing that irks me most is how different Sam is treated in the aftermath and other characters are.The Gadreel possession and MoC are prime examples of this.I will not go in detail as I have already done so...but these have made me apprehensive abt how This situation is going to be dealt with.
So follow the new season in the boards and if the show falls into the same rut...then its like this season but most episodes unwatched. (4 unwatched episodes this season)
# Joe 2015-05-24 03:32
Personally I did not care much for this season or this finale. I think it's a cop out when the writers just spew out a "Oh by the way there is an even greater evil out there that we never mentioned until right now". I gave them a pass the first time they did it with the Leviathans because Leviathans are legitimate figures in Christian mythology/folkl ore. For me the only way to save this would be if the boys have to find a way to jailbreak Michael and Lucifer from the cage to fight "The Darkness" since the Archangels are the ones that defeated it before (Hell maybe God/Chuck will bring back Gabriel and Raphael to help). Also maybe this will finally lead to God/Chuck getting involved and actually getting his hands dirty. Season 10 was the worst in my opinion so I really hope 11 will make up for it otherwise (never thought I would say this but) maybe it's time to end the series...for good!
# anonymousN 2015-05-24 03:44
Death had come to reap Sam and Sam stood him up.One very good thing for me personally.
# Shante 2015-05-24 07:38
i have 1 thing-the 1st Evil? as in Buffy the Vampire Slayer? um no,!
# njspnfan 2015-05-24 16:20
I thought this was one of Carver's weaker writing efforts. A lot of repetitive themes from earlier seasons, stealing heavily from the S5 and S8 finales. The only difference was they reversed the brother's roles. The acting was, as always, top notch but that really has never been a problem area for the show.

The reason given for having to kill Sam was pretty flimsy. Was glad to see Castiel and Crowley get some screen time together; they play off each other nicely. And they finally put to rest the debate as to whether or not Death was real in the S9 opener, or a figment of Sam's imagination.

And forgive me because this is a dangerous exercise in the Carver era, but I'm going to try to logic this out

* Lucifer was given the Mark by God, which was the key to hold back "The Darkness"
* Lucifer passed the Mark on to Cain, who then passed it on to Dean.
* Since Cain still carried the Mark, even after passing it on to Dean, that would mean Lucifer still had the Mark, correct?
* When Dean killed Cain, the Mark was still carried by Lucifer and Dean.
* When Rowena cast the Mark-be-gone spell from the BoTD, it would have had to lift the Mark from Lucifer AND Dean to release "The Darkness", wouldn't it?
* Since this "fixed" Dean, does that mean Lucifer is all fixed and no longer corrupted and evil?
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-24 17:13
You have been throwing shade left and right...but in a good way :)
Answered your own question buddy boy....LOGIC THIS OUT..........
# cheryl42 2015-05-24 17:53
It would be nice to get Lucifer back and see if he is still corrupted because right now there are only 2 arch (arc) angels left on the board. Chuck/God has already made an appearance so the Winchesters will have to get all three back in the band to defeat whatever it is that just happened.

I'm with Alice here. I really loved this episode. I am so glad that neither brother was forced to kill the other and that they chose each other made sense. Yes Sam kneeling before Dean trying to give him a memory to hold on to in his lonely exile just about killed me. Great job Jared. I also don't think Death is dead. He didn't seem all that surprised when Dean "killed" him. I can't figure out his end game though. Another storyline for next year I hope. I also agree that everyone was on their A game in this ep. Cas and Crowley as reluctant allies were pretty funny. Rowena (who I tend to have a like/not like relationship with) was manipulative, evil and heartbreaking. Good job Ruth. Now she is off with the BOTD and the codex. Is there something there that might have the answer to the Darkness? If she can cast a spell to remove the Mark how about one to put it back? We still have Metatron and the Demon tablet running around. Cas seemed to think that had some info on it as well. I can't wait to see how Crowley and Cas make it out of the predicament they are in now. And the boys. Jensen pitched an idea to Singer that the smoke clears and one of them is gone. I saw a big Boo Hiss to that suggestion. But what now. I can't see a whole bunch of finger pointing going on. There seems to be enough blame to spread around for everyone. I am hoping that one of Carver's tasks was to get everyone back on the same playing field. I also hope that Carver (who will write that season premiere) has at least an idea where he wants to go with this. I do love that everything wasn't wrapped up in a bow for us. It's going to be fun trying to guess what is going to happen next season.
Thanks for your review Alice. I gave it a A as well.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-24 18:44
Jensen pitched an idea to Singer that the smoke clears and one of them is gone. I saw a big Boo Hiss to that suggestion.
Mind if I ask for a source?

I like the idea of one of them gone, maybe Sam. Buuuut it feels a tad cliche because S10 started with one brother missing.
# eilf 2015-05-24 19:08
Here is an exclusive sneak peak for Season 11:

Not my post
Original Here (Wincest site, just FYI) ("http://bitchj")
# cheryl42 2015-05-24 19:54
# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-25 13:23
*cringes* >_<
# eilf 2015-05-25 14:01
Oddly I consider this response a win :D Also, thanks Cheryl!
# cheryl42 2015-05-24 19:45
It was from AHBL6 in Australia and I'm sure it was a joke. His next comment was that it was Dean and Sam finds him on the beach kicking back.
# AlyCat22 2015-05-25 18:32
No he was serious about one bro missing and that Singer liked the idea, he was kidding about it being Dean and Sam finding him five eps later suffering from amnesia, lying on a beach being served drinks by Crowley.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 00:48
I don't think you can really logic the MOC because there were just too many inconsistencies in how they presented the ramifications of the MOC, but there actually is an answer to your question. Rowena needed to use some of Dean's hair in the spell to make it specific to him, so presumably she would have needed to use something of Lucifers to remove the MOC from him. But I hope they never try to explain or reconcile all of the inconsistencies regarding the MOC because I'm sick and tired of that plot. :P
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-25 05:23
So by your reasoning, Luci STILL has the mark, IF he did not give it to Cain
but LUCI MUST have because the Darkness came back.
see the headache possibilities.
# E 2015-05-25 06:32
By the show's own reasoning (what there is of it) Lucifer must have given the mark completely to Cain otherwise THE DARKNESS!!!! would not have been released. Now WHY Cain could just give it away in it's entirety (seeing as how it was a punishment from God) was not explained and why Cain could "share" the mark with someone but seemingly NOT give it away in its entirety was also not explained. Could Cain have totally given it away thus saving himself from having to be killed? If so then why didn't he do that instead of sharing it? And Lucifer, if the mark was a "punishment" then why was he able to give it away at all? They are just making this crap up as they go... there is zero logic. It's a convoluted mess and it makes no sense. Each writer writes it the way that they want to suit their needs for the plot.
# E 2015-05-25 06:40
Sorry that should read... WHY Lucifer could give the mark away and Cain can only share it....

Writing too fast!
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-25 06:47
You proved my/ our point.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 07:43
I agree that almost nothing about the MOC was explained in a coherent fashion. How can 2 (or more?)beings have it, what is the effect of that? That's why I hope they just let it go so we can forget the whole thing and move on.
# E 2015-05-25 08:04
And I am also curious; Lucifer was deemed dangerous enough to lock down behind 666 seals, 66 of which needed to be broken to free him. So why was there only 1 key to the lock that hold back an even bigger threat than Lucifer? Why was Lucifer not stripped of the key when he was originally banished? God FORGOT?! The more I think about it, the worse it gets.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 09:05
Good point, and one more reason why the MOC was the worst story arc ever, at least in the execution of it.
# spnlit 2015-05-25 09:39
samanddean 10 and E: I agree with you both. The MOC storyline is inconsistent factually and logically. It is such a hot mess that when the writers released the MOC from Dean and us from the storyline it naturally turned into the massive darkness before God created Light. I guess we need Light now. Because Carver just created a hotter mess... I wish he would have stuck with the original storyline of MOC being the mark given to Cain for killing his brother and maybe the creepy darkness could just be some small amount of darkness that is residual from Lucifer. Now we have unleashed all the darkness of the universe. And as pointed out -All the darkness was only held back by one lock and key: the mark? And if it was the lock and key why was it called the Mark of Cain? AND since when is a branded symbol or a lock.... able to assert free will? Death said" The Mark that would serve as both lock and key, which he entrusted to his most valued lieutenant -- Lucifer. But the Mark began to assert its own will, revealed itself as a curse and began to corrupt." So something created by God in his Light to hold back the darkness turned itself into a curse? The only way I can watch and enjoy season 11 is to be happy the damn thing is no longer on Dean's arm and the darkness is just some random evil.
# E 2015-05-25 12:18
Agreed... the whole thing has become blown out of any and all proportion. Why was a mark created by God to hold back THE DARKNESS!!!! and given to Lucifer before he fell called The Mark of Cain? Presumably the granting of the key to Lucifer was a kind of gift and was bestowed on Lucifer for being the most trusted and most loyal. Then God creates Leviathan, a failed experiment apparently Then God creates Man who knows how many millennia later and Lucifer falls for not bowing down the the "hairless monkeys." So God just forgets that he's got this all important key? A key holding back the original DARKNESS!!!! ? And for reasons unknown to anyone this key is called the Mark of Cain? Why? What has it got to do with Cain at all really? What has punishing Cain for killing Abel got to do with the supposed key? None of this makes ANY sense. And I agree with the others that how the Mark affected Dean was about as logical as the rest of it and I am just beyond relieved that it's finally gone. What a wast of 35 episodes. Ugh. This show has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot give your primary hero the mythic arc because it conflicts with the writers objective to keep that primary hero completely unsullied and pure. They've never had that problem with Sam, therefore they have him do and say whatever is needed to further the plot and usually to that characters's detriment. But with Dean they have tiptoed around to the point that the MoC reached absurd levels of eye rolling ridiculousness. Not even Jensen's stellar acting could save it.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 13:14
So God just forgets that he's got this all important key?

E, are you criticizing GOD? You've crossed a line and I shall be reporting you to Alice forthwith! :) Otherwise, I agree with all of your points about the MOC. Death's exposition should have been a teensy bit longer to clear up this confusing nonsense.
# E 2015-05-25 14:42
I think God in the supernatural universe is a douche. :D:D I also think that it would have been better for them to go down the path of Sam sacrifices himself to Dean and then Dean gets cured and tries to save Sam rather than the ridiculousness that is THE DARKNESS!!!! Not sure I'll be watching season 11 much. I'll still come here though, this is way more fun than the show has been lately.
# cheryl42 2015-05-25 15:07
I think the Mark became known as the Mark of Cain after it was given to Cain. When it pertained to human history. Maybe the only way to combat the Darkness is to give the Mark back to Lucifer?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 15:36
Ah, but the question is, where is the MOC now? When it was removed from Dean did it just start floating in mid-air, or is it gone forever? One of the many mysteries of the MOC.
# cheryl42 2015-05-25 15:40
It looks like it shot into outerspace and unlocked the "door" for the Darkness. So I guess to be continued....
# E 2015-05-25 15:52
And now that the MoC is running around without an arm to be on does it just evaporate? Maybe the mark is gone forever? Maybe it and it's lock is null and void?
"If there is a key, then there has to be a lock! And when we find the lock then we can get the weapons! And then we can have the weapons. And the lock will also have a lock I imagine, because we open it and of course the initial key that opens the lock......"
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 16:15
I don't know why, but the idea of the MOC "shooting into outer space" cracks me up. Between that and Death's offer to relocate Dean to another planet, maybe they're indicating that next season's story arc will be Sam and Dean vs. the aliens. Also, E. great shout out to The French Mistake- very apropos!
# cheryl42 2015-05-25 16:41
You mean aliens... in space... with tentacles? I can't even....
# E 2015-05-25 18:49
Pigs In Spaaaaaace!!!
# E 2015-05-25 18:48
As Death was going on about locks and keys I kept seeing Jared from the French Mistake with his big hands miming unlocking the lock....and mumbling away nonsensically.. .. How am I supposed to take THE DARKNESS!!!! seriously now?
# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-25 18:13
Some poor Alien passing by likely has it now
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 18:28
ET has it on his arm- when it landed there he said "oouuuchhh."
# AlyCat22 2015-05-25 18:45
Uhm, so Alice is God? *She inquires, shaking in fear for ever having doubted, running around lighting candles and incense while quickly looking around for something to build an appropriate altar out of...*
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 21:04
She IS the God (Goddess?) of the WFB, so speaketh of her with the utmost respect wench!
# njspnfan 2015-05-25 09:10
you're right about Dean's hair; now it makes no sense whatsoever.
# E 2015-05-25 08:14
The reason given for having to kill Sam was pretty flimsy.
It sure was. The core of the reason was that Sam would never stop looking to find a cure or to save Dean. Despite the fact that this is a complete turnaround from Sam's feelings in season 8 (don't even get me STARTED on that) but as soon as Sam agreed that Dean was right to wanting him dead didn't that actually show that Sam WOULD stop looking and do what was right of the greater good? So in that moment that Sam accepted his death the entire need for killing him evaporated... so no need to kill him after all because he had just shown that he WOULD listen to "reason" and not go to the ends of the earth to save Dean. The whole thing has plot holes you could drive a truck through.
# SPNForever 2015-05-25 05:01
Carver is definitely a gifted writer - I wish he wrote more for the show. I'm just not sure he's a good show runner. I think he and Sera both worked better as writers than show runners.

I don't think this was a great finale. It was ok. The first 15 minutes were a little confusing - Rudy who? Dean on a case alone? A little hard to follow and Rudy in the finale? Don't get that intro. It was obvious that Rowena would double cross everybody and why she is still alive and Charlie is dead still makes me mad and unhappy about the heavy hand of the dead weight EP, Singer. The scene between Dean and Sam with Death was moving but not all that moving. We've kind of come to expect some emotional catharsis but this one was expected, well acted, but didn't move me. The whole Dean killing Death - hmmmmmmmmm, don't buy it. That is not the instrument that would kill death. So Dean was going to kill Sam and then he changed is mind when he saw the pictures or he never planned to kill Sam and they both knew it? i'm not sure. Anyway, great acting, but expected as I said before. Alway enjoy Death but he didn't seem as menacing as usual - I missed that "Dean......stop shuffling and deal" attitude.

Here are my gripes. If The Darkness predates GOD and the Archangels and was the "first" evil which was locked away by the MoC - how would anyone know to write a spelll to remove it? Carver has a way of setting up season finales and getting fans excited and then totally dropping to ball and allowing Ross-Leming, Buckner, Klein, Charmeleo, Snyder to write a bunch of crap fillers and we wait for our mytharc that just seems to have evaporated. The Darkness is so abstract it could manifest in countless ways but it better be damned scary. Carver turned Dean into a demon and that story ran out of gas in record time. Now he has bitten off "The Darkness" can he and the anemic writing room bring it to life in a way that will pull fans back in and will he actually have a plan for Season 11 that doesn't feel completely random like Season 10? The ending was cool with the special effects but the Impala getting stuck in a pothole and the black smoke just kind of swallows it was a pretty dull last few seconds. Wouldn't it have been better if Death (who I believe was part of the Darkness before GOD and the archangels put it away - I believe GOD gave Death purpose and removed the Darkness from him) walked out of the black smoke or some image was seen emerging from the black smoke but the pothole - really? Super wimp out.

I assume since it took GOD and the archangel to put away the darkness they are setting us up for the series finales which I predict will be Season 12. GOD would have to come back, spring Lucifer from the cage - just go full apocalypse that never happened. I also assume heaven and hell will have to work together to do something about this new predicament because this seems a little beyond the Winchesters guns and salt. They are going to need some divine assistance.

Finally would a writer please squash that little mouse dressed in PRADA we all mostly DESPISE, ROWENA, into oblivion. So sick of her. She did grow on me a little torwards the end of the season but still - one of if not the worst characters ever introduced into the show.

I'll check out Season 11 but Season 10 almost completely made me abandon my favorite show of all time - let's hope Glass is the first of many who leave the show and Carver finds some talent, like Raelle Tucker or John Shiban, or maybe even Edlund could write one ep and gosh even Sera and Kripke is they could write just one more ep. Berens, Thompson, Dabb, and Carver are the only talented writers IMO. Hopefully R Singer will retire after this season - that's an old rumor but he'll probably stay around and milk the cash register like others seem to be doing.
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 06:11
I'm glad you found some good bits Alice but for me the take away is that the writers shouldn't be writing a season around one episode and that is what it was for me and the episode in question wasn't the finale, it was the one where we got that cover of 'Wayward son' that was the aim of the whole season really.

I get it was the 200th episode but its tone screwed with the pacing of the rest of the season and I mean really screwed, Demon Dean was sacrificed for it and because of it corrupted Dean never seemed as much of a threat as Sam's hand wringing painted him out to be because the end of DemonDean was so early in the season and they needed us to relate to Dean for the majority of it that they couldn't go as far as they needed to. Cas let Oscar die and put his worries about great consequences aside to solely save Dean after Sam going on that saving Dean was the only thing that counted. Which considering the lack of threat with corrupted Dean for the majority of the season and it was the Winchester's he's dealing with so the consequences are likely to be global and will put the girl that Cas has spent three episodes trying to bond with in danger, it doesn't make sense unless we are now officially getting that Cas is a love sick puppy and Sam has given his blessing to the wedding. If this is the case Carver - do the follow through next season.

Death turned into a moron as getting his house in order (ie rogue reapers) and turning up and killing Rowena and taking her notes would mean no cure as he could then throw Dean into purgatory and Sam couldn't get him out as the law of averages would be Dean would become a demon there so the human only door would be out.

And Sam sure he was supportive but apart from that I didn't get what the hell he was doing for most of it - we had two seasons of him understandably or not being a bit of a jerk to his brother and then we get five minutes of him telling Dean he is a good man and Sam will always think that. That it? Well apart from that Carver actually put in a part where Sam could have legitimately called Cas to pause the cure until he got more information on the darkness and not killed the scene. That being said Sam can actually now officially be argued as evil and immoral as no-one manipulated him into not calling Cas on that one.

Sure we got a couple of good episodes after Executioner's song and the prisoner but on the whole season 10 was a mess for me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 08:05
I actually disagree with all of those who think they ended Demon Dean too early. The Demon Dean they gave us was far more Dean than demon, and 3 episodes of bad karaoke and beating up a few bad guys was plenty of that. The real problem was that they did not want to have Demon Dean be too bad lest it sully the image of the "hero" of the show (since that's how many of the writers seem to view him). They should have had DD slaughter a number of people purely for kicks, since that's what demons do, and been done with it. How many episodes of that would have been needed, or fun to watch? Whether as the Demon Dean they presented us with, or the DD they should have had the balls to give us, 3 episodes was plenty. I do agree that a truly evil DD would have made Sam's and Cas's worry and desperation about Dean getting "worse" much more compelling. Finally, I'm not sure where you saw 2 seasons of Sam being a "bit of a jerk." TPTB certainly seemed to be trying to portray him that way the 2nd half of season 9, but I'm not sure what else you're referring to.
# E 2015-05-25 08:19
I agree, demon Dean was a crushing bore and the nicest most gentlemanly demon that ever existed. Three episodes of the writers tip toeing around the whole issue was PLENTY. The fact that we then had to watch another 23 episodes of not demon Dean or MoC Dean or whatever was just added punishment. THANK GOD that whole story line is over.
# njspnfan 2015-05-25 09:07
I always wondered why that had to be the 200th episode; couldn't they have just done it as a 10th anniversary special later in the season, then let the Demon Dean story play out a little more naturally?
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 09:40
See that would make sense to me - an anniversary episode that fit in with the season. Like the 100th episode.

Fanfiction is a take it out and stick it anywhere filler episode that did nothing to push the season storyline forward.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-25 13:28
They should of had Demon Dean act like the demons from the anime. Demon Dean was too similar to ordinary Dean. I'm glad Demon Dean didn't last longer.
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 08:39
If we had more Demon Dean we could have had more of a build up of Crowley losing control of his BFF who at the beginning of the season started out as a kind of decent drinking buddy to the King of hell who was losing his marbles but turned into a monster who didn't care about anything other than himself and was uncontrollable

We could have had more of Sam and Cas being out of sorts while searching, more of why Lester got used as bait, why it took them needing Crowley's intervention to help them wrangle Dean (more why Sam had to use Lester. Who Carver made out to be a big deal but didn't get name dropped between episode 4 and the finale? Sure that made it look like Sam sweated that one, in fact it ties into Carver saying Sam is an immoral git when he feels like it).

The problem is we got soulless Sam for half a season back in the days of Gamble and a Sam who tried to make up for it, the writers knew that it was possible to push DemonDean further than they did and still have the audience sympathise with Dean, but we didn't and why? Because episode 5 had to be a Supernatural special episode and they'd deemed it to be a meta one where the guys were observing how the audience saw them on the light stuff. It doesn't fit with the myth arc this season at all.

But having 15 episodes after that of having Sam say Dean is getting worse with in comparative terms, little to back it up shows the demon dean they gave us didn't cut the mustard. Even with the massacre of Randy and the loan sharks because we were going what will Dean go back to if he was a demon, singing bad Karaoke and being mean to his casual flings then killing Demons and one human who got in his face? Oh wait Dean has done pretty much that as a human. In fact Demon Dean seemed nicer than douchy Dean at the beginning of the finale.

As for Sam being a jerk, there was plenty of instances of Sam being a jerk in season 8 and 9. Whether Dean deserved them, some sure he did, some he didn't to the extent that Sam gave, but the balance of the length the purge hung or text gate or hitting the dog or drop the not looking and I may be the one to kill your friend or you put a vampire and angel over me seemed to off as all we got was him telling Dean he was a good man and he'll always think that.

The pacing was off and the balance was off and why, because bang in the middle of the first half of the season they needed the brothers united to watch a girls choir sing 'carry on my wayward son' and you couldn't do that with Dean being a demon or coming off feeling like crap for being a demon.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 09:24
If we had more Demon Dean we could have had more of a build up of Crowley losing control of his BFF
Actually that's the only part of Demon Dean they did right. Those first two episodes fleshed out perfectly how/why Crowley lost control over his drinking buddy. In fact, it was excruciating enough watching Crowley moon over Dean for 2 episodes, any more and I would have had to gouge my eyes out. And we didn't need to have Dean being shown turning into a monster because he already WAS a monster, black eyes and all. I think two episodes of Dean on a killing spree, while Sam desperately tried to find and stop him, would have been a perfect set up for the rest of the season in which they have to deal with the fallout of the MOC (although they thoroughly butchered that plot). I just don't see what would have been gained by more episodes of demon Dean. It wouldn't have done anything to move the plot along that couldn't have done in those first 3 episodes, especially if they hadn't wasted time on the whole Cole plot, and it would have kept the brothers apart for too long. The difference with Soulless Sam is that he could still function as Dean's partner.
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 09:38
See for me it was just a crushing bore. Sure have Dean do no power plays as a demon while having Crowley moon over him. But really there was little to nothing to differentiate Demon Dean to really early Dean.

He was a dick to everyone else who wasn't Sam when cutting lose. From the girls he pretended to be an army ranger to bed to the guy who served him purple nurples and he killed any monster in his path without any real thought. And that what Demon Dean was more of a dick rather than a real wildcard menace.

If they had stretched it out a bit more we would have seen him as more of a threat and more of a reason for Crowley to turn on demon Dean other than Demon Dean embarrassing him in front of a couple of minions, which is pretty much equivalent to soulless Sam not looking for Dean and banging the hippy in the fairies episode.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 09:58
But really there was little to nothing to differentiate Demon Dean to really early Dean.
I guess I wasn't clear but that was exactly my point. The Demon Dean they gave us was a bore. They should have depicted 3 episodes of a truly demonic Dean who slaughtered folks for fun, which would have been interesting if not dragged out for too long. That would have shown how much of a threat he was and then they could have moved on to the cure and the MOC arc.
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 10:07
Sorry if I got it a bit mixed but I so agree with you, hell to me they should have stretch it out a bit and gave us a couple of episodes of dick demon dean who Sammy met and Demon Dean dissed and then him descending into monster Demon Dean that not even Crowley could distract from making a mess by throwing waitresses with low self esteem at him.

But no they had a three episode deadline of demon Dean as four they had to pull back on the arc before the musical one.

It would have made corrupted Dean and Sam's worries more show and less tell when Dean acted a bit dicky further on in the season and Cas' actions in going along with the cure make Sam's actions make a lot more sense on why he is trying to save his brother from the mark. I would have routed for Sam if they had gone that route but they didn't, now am completely going WTF on the rinse and repeat Carver seems to be selling.
# E 2015-05-25 12:45
I think TPTB made it pretty clear that they were NOT going to show Dean being a demon in the true sense of the word 200th episode or no 200th episode. So what would we have gotten had the whole demon Dean story line continued past three episodes? More Dean screwing waitresses and then verbally abusing them? More bad karaoke and the killing of demons conveniently supplied by Crowley? Who cares.. all of it was incredibly LAME. I didn't need to see any more than what we got and with Crowley mooning over Dean like some hysterical 13 year old girl with a crush it was embarrassing enough. TPTB have made it clear that they won't ever have Dean do anything questionable or truly amoral ever. He has not killed one single person in the 35 episodes in which the MoC was a factor that has not "deserved" it, not even baby Styne or Lester who were to most questionable of his kills. And since everyone is blaming Sam for Lester anyway he doesn't even count. Rudy was conveniently killed by the Vamp so that one can get hand waved away too. Watching TPTB create scenarios and planting bad guys into the narrative in a failed attempt to try and show how "bad" Dean was getting and still not have him do much of anything really risky was an exercise in futility and a complete cheat to the story line, not to mention boring as crap. Three episodes was plenty; its just too bad that we had to suffer through another 32 episodes of Dean doing nothing except being incredibly mean to everyone to see the end of this failure of a plot line.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 13:38
Baby Styne was the closest thing to an innocent, but they had to have him first carve someone up to save his own skin so that he wouldn't be a completely innocent victim. You know how they came up with all of those scenarios for Dean's death in Mystery Spot? I think they should have had an episode featuring scene after scene of Dean slaughtering people- nuns, rabbis, babies, cheerleaders, handicapped people- and making jokes while he did it. Some of them could have been bad people, but most should have been innocents. Just like the completely evil demons of the early seasons. That would have been fantastic. It would have changed the whole tone of the season and lent an urgency to the quest to cure Dean.
# E 2015-05-25 14:49
Absolutely! That's what I was hoping for. But its pretty clear that TPTB would never do that to their unsullied hero. I am predicting lots of and lots of manpain from Dean in season 11; more mirror scenes, only sorrowful this time as he agonizes over all the "bad" he's done. I guess I'll just start the eye rolling now cause as it stands Dean's done nothing to get upset about.
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 08:39
Double post
# anonymousN 2015-05-25 08:48
Whether Dean deserved them, some sure he did,
He did , all of it.
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 08:40
Double post
# anonymousN 2015-05-25 08:47
"That being said Sam can actually now officially be argued as evil and immoral as no-one manipulated him into not calling Cas on that one."
You already have a lot of times .This episode should not matter much.Quote:
we had two seasons of him understandably or not being a bit of a jerk to his brother and then we get five minutes of him telling Dean he is a good man and Sam will always think that.
Sam has said to Dean he can over come this MoC other times too.He has spoken about Dean glowingly other times too.But yes "5 mins".
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 08:56
You already have a lot of times .This episode should not matter much.
It's the finale, it should matter even to those who disagreed with me multiple times. With Lester you argued Sam was desperate and didn't plan for Lester to go through with it. Now 'Hi Sam take this off my arm and Death says this thing the darkness will turn up and we don't want that' yet Sam does nothing, even to find out what that is - not so much on the desperate but stupid and his goal is more important than anything else.

And he may have spoken of Dean glowingly - but he hasn't done as much of that to Dean as he did complaining over the past two seasons.

But sure lets do the whole 'You are being mean to Sam' thing again, what round is it? Stuff the rest of the way I see the episode and the season.
# anonymousN 2015-05-25 10:09
it should matter even to those who disagreed with me multiple times.
Not really .If Dean making a Deal to get Sam back did not meet with you being mattered why should what Sam did matter to me now.Quote:
yet Sam does nothing, even to find out what that is - not so much on the desperate but stupid and his goal is more important than anything else.
Yes because when his goal was not as important than anything else you and Dean blamed him.See with Sam you are not being mean to him.It is just that whatever Sam does...No whatever sam or Dean or Cas or Charlie etc do you will make a case that Sam is evil or/and immoral.

And he may have spoken of Dean glowingly - but he hasn't done as much of that to Dean as he did complaining over the past two seasons.
He has to Dean.The thing which Sam did not do was he did not tell him that he would want to hunt him if he did not know him.He has spoken about Dean glowingly to him..that he can overcome the mark..he is capable enough.After he put aside his feelings abt his violation by Gad-Dean team he was supportive of Dean through out.Now granted you wanted sam to not even be angry for that short time, I do not think so.

But sure lets do the whole 'You are being mean to Sam' thing again, what round is it? Stuff the rest of the way I see the episode and the season.
Dont know , dont care.When you erase what sam has done now or any other time i.e here you say "5 mins" .I will remind you it was not so.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 10:07
Anonymous, it's not worth arguing. Even after a season in which Sam's every waking thought and every line of dialogue revolved around worrying about Dean, supporting and encouraging Dean, and trying to figure out how he can save Dean, some people will always perceive Sam as the jerk who was mean to Dean, and (ironically) the evil, immoral person who now cares too much for Dean. There is not one blessed thing you can say that will ever change that, so don't bother trying.
# anonymousN 2015-05-25 10:21
Okie-dokie.I read your comment after editing my earlier comment.
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 10:49
The problem even with Sam's every line revolving around worrying around Dean was that almost everyone else's second line involved the words consequences and that is after two seasons of the brothers being a lot at odds.

Even Bobby's letter talked about to do good you may have to do bad and the bad could be really bad.

It wasn't foreshadowing of Sam's dilemma it was raining anvils about the subject so I got no idea what Carver is trying to sell with regard to Sam anymore. And it doesn't help that we had the Flash on the same network, where he had talked to everyone and they got he had to do it but also talked about unknown consequences before he went back. Then he did go back and instead of saving his mother he decided not to and held her hand as she died.
# Harper 2015-05-25 11:14
There were also consequences to Sam doing nothing, and that was the tragedy of the situation. Dean had jammed him firmly between a rock and a hard place so no matter what he did, even if he did nothing, there were going to be consequences. Everything they do, every hunt they go on has consequences. That has never stopped them from acting before.

I don't see what difference Sam and Dean being at odds makes. Apart from the fact they were no more at odds in the last two seasons than they were in any season prior to that would never stop them from saving the other.

With The Flash it was a totally different situation. He was told exactly what the consequences would be and even then he decided to go ahead and do it. Add to that, Barry didn't have to do it. He wanted to do it. No-one's life was on the line and if Barry did nothing, there was no danger of anything getting worse.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 11:55
Agreed. Everyone seems to forget the fact that in Sam's mind a MOC Dean would end up a killing machine like Cain who in his own words had rained death and destruction on the world for centuries before Collette saved him.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 11:52
The problem even with Sam's every line revolving around worrying around Dean was that almost everyone else's second line involved the words consequences and that is after two seasons of the brothers being a lot at odds.
Actually that's not really the case. For the first SIXTEEN EPISODES of the season we had an endlessly concerned, supportive, devoted Sam, who mouthed the same supportive things over and over. I found this quite tedious because it was such a one dimensional portrayal of Sam and really sidelined him as a character. It was only in Episode 17 that Sam started working behind Dean's back to save him, and received the first cautionary advice from Bobby. From that time forward it seemed that they were setting Sam up as the whipping boy, but that doesn't diminish the devoted, loving Sam we saw for the first two thirds of the season. Also, I enjoy the Flash but I thought that last episode was incomprehensibl e and made no sense. Although generally the whole time travel conundrum seems like a circular puzzle that can't be unraveled.
# E 2015-05-25 14:55
samandean is right anonymousN..... .don't waste your energy.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 09:00
if "Brother's Keeper" did one thing (and trust me, it did many things), it gave us enough possibilities to keep us all happily speculating and theorizing for the next five months

I agree with that statement Alice. The finale ended on a really high note what for me was mostly a pretty bad season, and I'm actually eager to see where they go with the story. Some viewers didn't like the introduction of the Darkness because it was so out of the blue and might be difficult to do justice to given the limitations of the writers and the budget. Others feel that the finale merely recycled old plot lines from earlier seasons. Others hated the lack of logic in certain aspects of the finale plot. And there is some basis to all of these criticisms, but for me they were far outweighed by terrific writing (some of the best dialogue in a long time) and the portrayal of the brothers. Sam was finally written completely in character, and the depiction of a conflicted MOC Dean struggling to overcome the power of the mark was excellent and what we should have been seeing for months. Does the finale redeem the season for me? No, but it makes me hope that the show might be getting back on track. I also think that everyone has a different tolerance for lapses in logic and the sudden introduction of new plot elements. Even under Kripke, you could have picked apart every season and almost every episode for being illogical or ridiculous. Just one example: the entire Sam/demon blood story doesn't hold up well if you really think about it. Sam is supposedly Lucifer's true vessel, destined to let him in so Lucifer can battle Michael. So Lucifer tells Yellow Eyes to find this special child. But how does YE go about this? By dripping blood into the mouths of Sam AND MANY OTHER children so he could set up a death match between these children in the HOPES that Sam will be victorious! It's really pretty silly. But I overlooked the illogical contrivances because damn, it made for a great story, a story in which the brothers almost always behaved in character, and in which there was at least a general sort of logic to the story as it unfolded. Most importantly, the writing was generally outstanding. This whole season didn't work for me for a lot of reasons, but a major one was that the sole arc was the MOC, and it was an inconsistent, incohesive mess. But I might have overlooked that to some extent, except that a lot of the episodes were poorly written and essentially sidelined Sam. Brothers Keeper worked for me on so many levels that I can tolerate the aspects in which it fell short. One last note, there is much discussion about the moral and ethical issues surrounding the actions and choices of the brothers, especially Sam. And I understand why. But were these same questions raised in season 5 regarding Dean's decision about whether to let Michael in? The issue was framed as a choice between becoming Michael's vessel in the expectation that he could defeat Lucifer as he had when Lucifer first rebelled, or depriving Michael of his true vessel and thereby possibly allowing Lucifer to win. One choice potentially roasts half the planet, the other choice allows Lucifer to wipe out mankind entirely. Dean went the route that presumably gave Lucifer his best shot at victory. None of the other characters (except for Pamela in heaven) even remotely suggested that Dean pursue the course that presumably would have resulted in the fewest casualties. Rather, they actively discouraged him from making that choice. Even Chuck in his voiceover in Swan Song gave his blessing to the choices made by the brothers. I wasn't watching the show then so I truly don't know if viewers were questioning the moral implications of Dean's decision. I only wonder because much of this season was set up as a referendum on Sam's character.
# Sharon 2015-05-25 09:05
Fazzie It is not being mean to Sam as much as you seem to be pushing him as the 'problem' .It seems odd you are having a go at Sam for not stopping yet Dean not stopping and not thinking of the consquences is what caused the situation that then led to what happened in the finale .
# Fazzie 2015-05-25 10:34
Dean yes him going for the mark is a problem but it seems he gets he is as bad as the things he is hunting when he got Rudy killed because simply killing monsters wasn't enough he has to dick around with them too. It doesn't put him much higher on the evil scale in my eyes just he is self aware of the fact of where he is. And don't get me started on the killing Death thing after summoning him. The summoning part I got, it made sense for where Dean was. The killing part, my heart just fell as it is a rinse and repeat of previous Sammy before everything storyline.

With Carver having that bit of a break where Sam could have paused the cure after all the consequence talk. It doesn't help with the Sam storyline the past three seasons. He still gets little POV and when he does there is a bit of a disconnect what Carver is saying what Sam is, what Sam is saying and what is going on. In season 8 Carver said Sam was the mature one, it didn't come across that way and what come out of Sam's mouth didn't sound like it was mature, even though I got where Sam was coming from but it still felt like Sam wasn't owning his actions in a way. If Carver has Sam do something make Sam own things it would be better, seriously even if it is this. I'd respect what Carver is selling if he had Sam own it.

Because now we have had Sam and Lester, the talk of consequences, Bobby's letter saying Sam is a good man and then the place the phone call could have been and Sam didn't make the call - what else am I supposed to see Carver pushing?
# Sharon 2015-05-25 11:26
There were consquences regardless of what Sam did and that was a result of the situation Dean created to say he could of paused the cure is unrealistic and unfair on him . After all Dean has only taught him too well that consquences mean little in saving one,s brother and frankly Dean being self aware of anything is meaningless as the result is still the same.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 12:09
With Carver having that bit of a break where Sam could have paused the cure after all the consequence talk.
I guess I see the final scene differently than many viewers because I saw no such break. I saw a Sam who was just confronted with the seemingly crazy tale of the Darkness and of Dean being relocated off-planet by Death, as well as with the news that Dean thinks he and Sam are both evil and that Sam must die. This same Dean, who Sam loves above all others, proceeds to beat the shit out of Sam, finally convincing Sam that Dean must be stopped at all costs. The absolute LAST thing on Sam's mind at that point is the BOTD spell that as far as he knows isn't even doable because of the almost impossible to obtain ingredients. So it is perfectly credible that an emotionally devastated Sam would bow his head and wait for a quick death rather than say "hold it, just let me make a quick call to Cas to tell him to stand down." IMO of course.
# eilf 2015-05-25 12:40
I am with you Samandean. I don't see any point at all where Sam was both convinced that this was the best way AND had time to make a phonecall. He had clearly come to the conclusion that Dean couldn't be stopped - he said as much. And to expect him to second guess what may or may not be happening somewhere else under the circumstances ....
# E 2015-05-25 15:10
That won't stop some fans though will it eilf? I think about 4 minutes passed between Sam finding out about THE DARKNESS!!!! and it getting released and in that time he received a beat down and was confronted with the knowledge that Dean was willing to kill him to save himself, so I can forgive him for not stopping to make a phone call to check on a cure that he didn't even know was imminent. All he knew at that point is that the others were still trying to collect the ingredients. Why didn't Cas call to tell Sam that they were about to do the spell? That would have been more prudent in the long run so that Sam could have been informed. But he didn't. But I'll bet no one will be blaming Cas though will they? Nope, just the Sam haters making everything his fault even when the narrative is actually NOT blaming him for once.
# eilf 2015-05-25 15:55
Indeed it will not E. Thank you for remembering the point that Sam arrived to the discovery that Dean laid a trap for him to lure him to his death - which would ironically result in Dean living forever (I have sympathy for Dean if that had turned out to be the case, because it would have been horrifying for him). But he went ahead and allowed himself to be sacrificed - while still trying to save Dean's soul from the effects of doing the thing that would destroy Dean.

And he didn't get to call Cas! Goodness, the man should have a social secretary shouldn't he? Not thinking through all of the potential outcomes of getting involved with a world-breaking curse ... that sounds like a vaguely familiar scenario, I wonder why?

Sam evilly and immorally spends his last few seconds on earth telling his brother that he (Dean) is a good person, that he is loved, that he will win, that he will fight this. Then he does the one thing that will result in preventing Dean from ever hurting anyone else - and forgives him for killing him at the same time. What a lowlife (oh I am sorry, I believe 'git' was the word used to describe him at this moment)...

To be able to understand some parts of fandom can be impossible, E. Thus has it ever been.
# E 2015-05-25 16:09
Got that right. That's why I don't engage some points of view at all. There is no way to have any kind of reasonable conversation.
# AlyCat22 2015-05-25 19:52
Besides, everyone knows that getting cell phone reception when out at Juanitas is a biiiiiitch!!! Seriously I do think Sam had a lot on his plate staring him in the face to expect him to have a clear enough mind to just pull out his phone and call or text Cas. Sam didnt know they were ready to cast the spell, only that they would asap. The one thing I do find interesting is when they are leaving the restaurant immediately after killing Death, you can see as Dean is trying to puzzle out in his mind how the MOC came to be removed from his arm Sammy being all distracting with his "Its all good, Dean! Puppies and rainbows!!!" knowing full well what just happened. I took it as Sam was trying to get Dean to see the positive and the best of what had just occurred before Dean finds out the who/what/why/wh en and how it came about. Sammys got some splain' to do come Season 11.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-25 21:19
Seriously I do think Sam had a lot on his plate staring him in the face to expect him to have a clear enough mind to just pull out his phone and call or text Cas. Sam didnt know they were ready to cast the spell, only that they would asap.

Absolutely. The best evidence of that is that he was preparing to die that very minute. Had he really thought that the spell was about to be cast, so that Dean might be saved without Sam forfeiting his life, he would have tried to delay. The scene, and Sam's words and actions, makes no sense if Sam is still thinking that the spell is about to be cast. Otherwise, he would be dying at his brother's hands for no reason. And as much as Sam probably doesn't want to die, he's probably just as concerned about how devastated Dean will be if he is ultimately cured, but has to live with having murdered Sam.
# E 2015-05-26 06:46
I did a little investigation. From the moment that Dean killed Death until the Mark was taken from his arm was 24 seconds. So not too likely that a phone call could have been made in that time to stop the cure. Besides, Dean still had the mark, even though Death was no longer around to kill Sam, Dean still needed curing didn't he; otherwise we'd have been back to status quo, nuclear Dean. Death's death didn't change anything in that regard.
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-26 08:46
Correct, Death ''dying'' had nothing to do with the MoC being taken away.
I have not read all the comments so I suppose someone said it did.
My issue was Dean should not have killed Death but I have watched yet
again, and I see what others were talking about. DEAN did seem SURPRISED
that the scythe Found Death.
# eilf 2015-05-25 12:39
# ThisOldBag 2015-05-26 10:46
I've seen a bit of speculation (and as we continue to ponder, we will continue to speculate): is Death really dead? Did Dean break thru the fog with Sam's help and decide to kill Death instead? I have another question. Seems to me that Dean was already in charge (with bits of MOC peeking thru). He was logically trying to find a solution. But, perhaps it was the MOC that broke thru the fog at the last second, not wanting to be carted off to a loney planet forever. Perhaps Dean, the "good" Dean was intent on killing Sam (despite the logic issues). Now that might be a good story.