Um…just…no.

I’m trying like mad to suppress my outrage, the bitter screaming fan girl right now, so I can deliver a more balanced review.  It’s awfully hard.  I’m insulted.  Just plain and simple.  I’m insulted that Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming are still permitted, after a wealth of pitiful, poorly written, canon trashing scripts, to write for this show and continue to do further damage.  I’m insulted that anyone thought that “Dark Dynasty’s” twist of events brought any excitement or shock value.  I’m insulted that there’s little respect anymore for the legacy of this show.  Most of all, I’m just insulted that my hour was wasted on this crap. 

(Deep breath…happy place, happy place…everything will be okay…)  There.  Better now.  Time to digress and break out for you my likes and dislikes of the episode with all four letter explicatives removed.   It’s better this way. 

Likes:

Crowley had a conversation with a hamster.  Granted its transfigured Olivia hamster and she was giving him some pretty good dope on Rowena, but still, the King of Hell was talking to a hamster and liking it.  You've got to admit, she looks might dashing in the red necklace.  I'd like to know how the prop people got  a tiny necklace on a hamster of that size.  

Dean and Sam’s conversation near the end.  Not the car. While that was alright, it was way too short.  Sam should have had a chance to say way more than “we all love you.”  No, I’m talking about the one in the MOL bunker library after Eldon escaped.  The scene where Dean confronted Sam about supposedly burning the Book of the Damned.  It was creepy as can be.  Dean with his angry restraint was super scary, while I was nervous for a guilty Sam sitting there knowing he’s busted, not admitting he didn't burn the book.  It was all very well framed and acted.  It’s also ideal foreshadowing as to how bad this rift between Sam and Dean is and what could possibly push Dean to killing Sam.  I thought he would kill him right there.  Now that is Dean getting worse!  

Deanconfronts

Dislikes:

Everything else.  Where to begin.

Let’s start with the Styne family and their “big reveal” about their lineage.  I don’t…buy it.  Why did the Stynes have to be tied to the Frankensteins?  Does that make them more special?  No, what it does is take the believability of the villain away.  Now this has become a bad B-movie.  Suddenly I’m nostalgic for the Leviathans.  All is forgiven season seven.

I could accept that the Stynes were an extraordinary family that got into genetic engineering long ago or whatever strange crap they were doing, coupled with the power of one nasty book.  They did what they did for profit and possibly world domination.  You know, normal motives of bad guys.  They could have been one of those fringe elements under the radar like the Judah Initiative and the Men of Letters - a nice secret society.  But this script made them larger than life for no good reason.  Now they’re responsible for all the world’s misfortune like the Nazis and the financial crisis and 9/11…oh and they’re everywhere?  Great.    Way to take credibility away from your villain.  That kind of mythos has no place in the “Supernatural” universe.   If they become the menace for season 11, I’m out.

I also didn't care for Sam and Dean’s interactions for most of this episode (save for the above mentioned scene).  Sam is obviously sneaking around and Dean asked him about it.  Sam didn’t even try to come up with a good lie.  “I do that.”  Awful, awful.  If I were Dean, I would have walked out of the bunker and not come back.   Plus we could see from a mile away as soon as Charlie and Castiel both objected to Sam’s plan something tragic would come of it.  The whole episode felt awkward.  Awkward makes episodes far less enjoyable. 

I’m also tired of glacial pacing, over the top dialogue and poorly done scenes with characters that have long worn out their welcome (I’m talking to you Rowena).  Why was Crowley AGAIN having a typical day at the office with dumb minions?  Remember when demons were smart?  Then there's, "Let’s put Rowena, Charlie, and Castiel all in a room and see what happens!"  Nothing unfortunately.  Just Rowena being a bitch and Castiel calling Sam every five minutes like the teenage baby sitter that doesn’t know how to handle conflict.  This is the same guy that once upon a time told Sam and Dean to stow their crap when they were fighting!  Why wasn’t Castiel in the heart of the action where he belonged?  And yes, why couldn’t he find Charlie?  Because that would have ruined the contrived ending. 

07

I swear, ANY TV writer should be fired for using the “let the good guys leave the villain alone so he can escape” trope.  It’s old and diminishes the characters.  It happened only so they could setup the ending scene, which was even more unbelievable.  Why would Charlie, knowing first hand from “Book of the Damned” how ruthless and vigilant The Stynes are, go off from the safety of protection of a powerful witch and an angel to a seedy motel room where she could easily be found?  By the dude nonetheless who escaped the MOL cave because Sam and Dean had one of their brain farts.  It’s lazy plotting, always has been, and Buckner and Ross-Leming aren't the only ones guilty of it.  

That leads us to the elephant in the room.  TV writing 101, you do not piss off your viewers for the sake of “shock value.”  For one, deaths on this show aren’t shocking anymore.  When they happen, they have to mean something other than being the token death that the network loves publicizing for sweeps.  Second,  Charlie’s death didn’t inspire or emotionally grab us.  It angered us.  It’s a very weak setup for Dean to go off on his Mark fueled spree now.  A contrived situation created just so we could go down the predictable path of Sam’s deception coming back to bite him.  There were so many different and clever ways to do this.  What we got was…well…rudimentary and predictable.  Charlie suffered for that? 

I get exactly why they killed Charlie.  She sacrifices herself to save Dean by staying behind to send her code breaking key to Sam, all because she loves Sam and Dean like brothers and would die for them.  That’s our hero Charlie.  Looks good on paper, huh?  That’s also exactly the reason why she shouldn’t have died.  What if she survived but learned an awful secret and had a big disillusionment with Sam and Dean?  The kind that causes one of those character rifts that this show seems to love digging into all of the time?  Maybe something that puts her into harms way even worse for season 11?  That would have been way more interesting than the predictable outcome we got here.  It was a missed opportunity in a very long line of missed opportunities.  The poor writing and plotting from beginning to end made the whole mess more infuriating than poignant.  This production and writing team really, really needs to put some better thought and care into their creative decisions.  Remember Jo, Ellen, and Bobby (even though I’m still pissed).  That. Their deaths served a purpose.  

The Red Headed Monster

I want to quote EP Robert Singer from my interview with him at Comic Con just before season nine.  With the writing team of Brad Buckner and Singer’s wife Eugenie Ross-Leming in mind when I asked this question, especially after “Taxi Driver”, here’s his answer regarding fan outrage over creative direction:

Alice:  How challenging is it going into the new seasons, and we saw a bit of this in season eight, maintaining the continuity especially when you’ve got a fanbase that gets vocal when something goes wrong?

RS:  Years ago there’s a director who said he makes film like he’s cooking dinner for friends.  He hopes they like it but if they don’t, he’s fully prepared to enjoy it himself.  We try to tell the best stories we can, we try to come up with stuff that gets us excited and we hope the fans come along.  I don’t think anybody anticipated that when we started this show we’d be looking at season nine.  I’m actually the only one left from the beginning in terms of the writing staff that are left.  

The fact that we do manage to keep it fresh is why I keep coming back.  If I felt we were getting cookie cutter and retreading stuff I’d say then we would need someone else to help because I’m burnt out.  I think we’ve done a really terrific job of keeping it fresh.  The only thing about doing a show this long with these same characters is that when you’re starting a show you really don’t have any character history.  You’re kind of creating it out of whole cloth and inventing it as it goes along.  You go through the years, they have a history that you bring forward that you go back to develop.  In terms of the boys,  it makes it easier to write for them because they have such a rich history we’ve seen.  The guys are great and they’re game for anything as Jensen said.  We consulted them once and that was on “The French Mistake.”  We rarely set up one of these off the wall things that get any push back from them.  They just go, “We trust you guys and let’s go for it.”  It’s a great working relationship.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/interviews/17980-interview-with-supernatural-executive-producer-robert-singer-comic-con-2013

So, what have we learned from “Dark Dynasty?”  They’re keeping it fresh guys, even though it seems “keeping it fresh” is code for “we can do any random thing we want.”  I suppose that is creative license and is their right.  But I still question, and this is true for any show, where the fun is of killing popular characters?  Does a mandate come from the network that says X number of characters must be killed every year during sweeps?  For "Supernatural" though, this really stings, because female characters, let alone strong ones, are non-existent on this show.  Why can't "Supernatural" have it's version of Felicity Smoak?  They finally find one, but no they needed another target for a sensational death.  

SamandDeanDiscover

Sacrifice is a theme of this show, but how many times is it supposed to be delivered to fans like an anvil dropping on our heads before we realize we don't like getting hurt like this anymore?  That's where I question creative license and think that the feelings and sensitivies of fans need to be considered too, especially when the majority of the audience is female.  Also, don't drop anvils with a weak story.  The backlash and ill feelings will only come back to bite hard.  This is especially true now that more deaths are rumored.  Oh, but don't worry, if anything TPTB can fall back on the old, very overused and completely infuriating line, “nobody ever dies on Supernatural.”  Yeah right.  Tell that to Bobby and Kevin.  

There’s another quote I’d like to bring up too, this one from this season’s brilliant “Fan Fiction.”  Imagine what would happen if you told Marie that the latest clan of big bads are the Frankenstein’s and the “shocking reveal” for a crucial episode was another senseless death of a fan favorite. 

“That is some of the worst fan fiction that I have ever heard.”

Overall grade, an D-.  Honest, it was spared an F for fail because of Crowley's bonding with a rodent.  Still, this is episode 21 and it should have been far better.  I would have upped this to a D if it had been episode 13.  Yet another stinker for Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming.  Charlie deserved better.  We all did. 

 

Comments  

percysowner
# percysowner 2015-05-07 22:10
I deeply suspect that we are getting Family Frankenstein (It's pronounced Frankensteen!) as the next big villain. To bad Doc Benson didn't run into them. They could have had great conversations about harvesting and creating the better monster.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-07 23:50
TOUCHE' :)
E
# E 2015-05-08 15:12
Sam's the better monster...oh, pardon, the BIGGER monster.. bigger not better.

And yes, it's Frankensteen... . you're putting me on?! No, it's pronounced Frankensteen!
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-07 22:49
Hi Alice, I agree wholeheartedly with your review - except as I said somewhere else I don't see that there is anyway these writers made a unilateral decision to kill Charlie - that had to come from higher up. And the buck doesn't even really stop with RS! It had to have been part of Jeremy Carvers 3 episode planning ahead (yes I mean 3 episodes. Tops.)
I can't discuss the episode because I haven't seen it but I wanted to comment on the quote you have from RS
.... I keep hearing this thing that they have run out of storylines and stories. And I entirely agree that they only USE the same stories and storylines, but I feel like they have only looked at about two or three of the basic ones and are constantly recycing them (along with character names). What else could they do? Lots of stuff:

-Sam and Dean were more mature people in season 2 than they are now, this constant misery between them really has me wishing that they would take a break from each other - Sam's epicness in 'Free to be You and Me' and 'Mother's little Helper' encourages me in this feeling A LOT.
- They are both gorgeous and personable, and yet we never have interactions with ordinary real people any more like we used in season 1 or 2
- They live in a community (near a town) now, but there is on interaction, no quiet background continuity with a barman, where Sam could get a drink and talk about the superficial realities of his life, or a shopkeeper who suspects them of being heavies for the mob, or a garage that Dean could work in in his spare time. No girlfriends, no human friends, nothing.
- The lack of connection was understandable when they had no base of ops, they now have an excellent base of ops (which, I might say, I predicted/inven ted in a post at the beginning of season 8 - a season and a half before the show thought of it *smug*) that they should investigate more, there is so much potential for hiding and secrets in there and yet we hardly know it at all. (for example while I understand the guys wanting their own rooms, does it really seem plausible to anyone else that they would have rooms on opposite sides of the bunker, like, 15 corridors from each other? We should have the reason for this explained.)
This community that they live nearby could have Eureka levels of stupid crud happening to it all the time - Eureka was daft as you like but it was consistently enjoyable and all happened in the one location - the happenings would be supernatural crud instead of misfits of science crud (who remembers MoS? Just me? Ok then...).
Have a set of rules for each set of monsters - after all that is the basic descrpition of monsters that Dean used way back in 'The Benders' - and write stories that incorporate the rules not the other way around. I wouldn't have thought a professional writer would need to be told that but apparently they do ...

They always have to come up with new shock value because world building is too much work. It could be SO great. But no, we kill people.
BookLady
# BookLady 2015-05-07 23:08
When I think of all the ways they could have ended Charlie's life, this way wasn't one of them. No Winchesters by her side to hold her and say good-bye? And, they didn't even have to kill her to set Dean on the road to revenge. She could have been very badly, horribly injured, put in a coma, her fate uncertain, with Sam by her side while Dean snaps and roars off in the Impala. Don't worry about Castiel helping. He's been useless, even with his grace back. Besides, he needs to keep an eye on Rowena. Really?! What a disservice to that character. Do something with him or write him out already! And, I'm sorry but Crowley conversing with a rodent?! Surely the King of Hell deserved a better storyline. He couldn't have found out this information another way, in another episode? Just so Charlie's death could have been given more time and more plausibility? Maybe been written better? Crowley's story was crammed in and not necessary.

Again, it comes down to better story planning. Couldn't the writers plan backward at the beginning of the season? Know where they want to be by season's end and plan backward so they know where they need to be in each episode, instead of throwing darts and hoping they land in the vicinity of a decent storyline? Yes, the Duo has struck again, but more blame rests on the shoulders of Singer/Carver. The gang in Canada working their arses off deserve better, as does the fandom. So disappointing.
thesalmondean
# thesalmondean 2015-05-07 23:19
I don't comment here often, but I read all your reviews, Alice, because I really appreciate how you try to critically approach reviewing this show. So many other places I visit to read reviews are too forgiving for all the wrong reasons (in my opinion). I agree with EVERYTHING you say here. ALL OF IT. (well, except the Crowley and hamster part, I thought that was ridiculous and dumb)

With that said - this episode BROKE me completely, and as such, I'm breaking up with Supernatural. I cannot do this stupid dance any longer. I cannot take these contrived plots and "stakes" that exist only as "shock value" and not as real stakes. I cannot let my heart break again. I was so upset last night; and this morning; and even still, now. I can't stop thinking about what those AWFUL TERRIBLE WRITERS did to Charlie. I can't stop trying to figure out WHY and HOW ANYONE THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA. Because it wasn't, and all it's done is alienate me from this show - a show I used to be so excited about. A show that I thought used to care about how it told stories and how it treated its characters. I won't be tuning in the rest of this season, and it remains to be seen if I'll come back for Season 11. Any remaining good will this show had with me was squandered and lost on this piece of crap episode. And my heart is still broken and battered. I want to cry just thinking about what they did.

I LOVED Charlie. I LOVED Charlie and Dean. And FUCK THE SHOW for using that love as a weapon against ME. I do take what they did personally, and I will react in kind, by tuning out. And that makes me very, very sad. I can only hope this show ends SOON - so both Jared and Jensen can move on and do something better worth their time and efforts.
Alice
# Alice 2015-05-08 01:22
Psst, just between you and me, I was dying to find something positive about this episode and that was the winner! It wasn't rip roaringly funny, but it was cute. Mildly cute.
thesalmondean
# thesalmondean 2015-05-08 18:39
makes sense! Personally, I did find Castiel's call to Sam and subsequent "pointless" chat with Dean very funny. That was the single high point for me!
Vince
# Vince 2015-05-07 23:22
Say what you want about Buckner and Ross-Leming, but they don't trash canon. Unless introducing the concept of rogue reapers = trashing canon, well Kripke let way worse stuff get ignored/retconn ed in his tenure. Let's take a look at some of the canon discrepancies from these past seasons: the Veil being filled with souls all of a sudden even after Charlie got to Heaven -- Robert Berens, angels as reapers -- Andrew Dabb, Grand Canyon -- Ben Edlund, Dean knowing what a rugaru was in '95 -- Adam Glass. There are probably a few more, but none can be attributed to them.

Considering Charlie had been out and about without worrying about the Stynes, also considering she knows that the Stynes were tracking the book not her, and also considering she wasn't privy to the Styne's being around. It's safe to assume she thought she would be safe in a motel alone, like she had been for however long between this episode and her previous one.

Also you can thank "Fan Fiction" writer Robbie Thompson for bringing the Frankenstein family into Supernatural.
Alice
# Alice 2015-05-08 01:30
I'm sure you'll get many debates from others on this site (we've had plenty) thinking that Ross-Leming and Buckner play fast and loose with canon. You brought up my sore spot for sure, the Rogue Reapers! I absolutely hate most of their episodes because they're poorly constructed, weakly paced, the dialogue is bad and the attention to continuity is deplorable.

But are they the only ones? Heavens no! I have a laundry list of things Andrew Dabb has totally trashed through the years. His episodes make up at least half of my worst episodes list. Edlund gets a pass on the Grand Canyon thing though. He officially apologized for that on Twitter. Plus, his one mistake is forgivable given the huge amount of classics he gave us.

I do know, and my ire for Buckner and Ross-Leming was the way this story was written, that the big decisions are collective, with the approval coming from Jeremy Carver and Robert Singer. That notion outrages me more! I liked the way Robbie introduced the Stynes, I just wish they stayed the Stynes.

Thanks for the comment! The review was wordy enough where I couldn't afford more space to such clarifications, which is why comment replies are so wonderful!
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-10 14:43
Eugenie Ross-Leming ONLY has a job writing for SPN because she is Robert Singer's wife. Pure out and out nepotism and it stinks. Ross-Leming and Buckner are the WORST, WORST, WORST writers and almost every episdoe they write is complete garbage. When they wrote Taxi Drive I almost quit watching SPN then. I was FURIOUS, FURIOUS at that episode. I was so angry that the writers were so lazy and incompetent yet allowed to write an important episode as it was buidling up to the season finale. The only reason Ross-Leming and Buckner wrote this important episode is because Eugenie is married to Robert. Robert and Eugenie need to leave SPN NOW. I am furious that they are alllowed to continue to deconstruct years of canon and character development. The killing of Charlie will hurt the show's ratings and if Castiel is killed in the season finale or Sam - I think the show is done. It's almost done now - it's sad but I'm not longer sad I am just ANGRY that the best show on TV has been turned into a TOTAL JOKE.
E
# E 2015-05-09 08:00
Rogue reapers trash canon. Cas not curing Charlie trashes canon. But the biggest problem with Ross-Leming/Bru ckner is the way that they alter the characters to suit canon. This most recent episode was ripe with it. Charlie suddenly looses all her hard won (and largely unbelievable) hunter smarts, Sam suddenly becomes the WORST liar on the planet, Dean suddenly looses all his brain cells, ties up a dangerous advisory by only ONE arm and then leaves him alone in the room. Cas suddenly can't manage to string two sentences together and suddenly is back to NOT understanding human behavior at all for the sake of some ill timed and irrelevant humor, and Crowley....poor Mark..... Crowley is holding a conversation with a hamster.... there's even chittering noises as the hamster responds and "reaction shots" of it in its red necklace.... I'm speechless ..... I can't even........... .. None of that may be able to be construed at trashing canon, but it's show annihilation through and through.
E
# E 2015-05-09 13:34
Quote:
But the biggest problem with Ross-Leming/Bruckner is the way that they alter the characters to suit canon
Yikes that SHOULD read... the way the write characters to suit PLOT... not canon. Only noticing this mistake five hours later. :o
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-09 14:06
Quote:
Yikes that SHOULD read... the way the write characters to suit PLOT... not canon.
It's just not Lemming/Ross-Bu ckner. Every writer has done that the last two years. I actually thought that Ross/Buckner had the brothers in character in this episode moreso than I have seen them in a very long time. I also thought the dialogue for the brothers was good...except for that truly atrocious "For Dean" from Team-Lie-To-Dea n, but Rowena saved that for me with her "I barely know the man." I still crack up thinking about it, and thank Chuck that Sam didn't have to say it.
E
# E 2015-05-09 18:14
Ugh that scene was awful. I couldn't help adding my own subtext there:
"For Dean, but certainly not for you, you lying sack of shit."
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-09 19:01
That is what the looks and tone by Cas and Charlie seemed to indicate-that they were doing it for Dean despite regarding Sam as a total lowlife for hatching this scheme.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-09 20:15
Huh. I did not get any impression whatsoever that any of them thought Sam was a total lowlife or a sack of shit.
E
# E 2015-05-10 16:53
I'm sure I am projecting on that one, but that's what my mind filled in while watching the scene.
Debbie
# Debbie 2015-05-08 01:37
This is my opinion about supernatural, I only watch the show because of the chemistry between jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki are great they work well together. If the two boys were in another show together, I will watch it. I do not believe in this kind of supernatural texture of this show as for mark of Cain. In this show it is not believable it's not bible base. The mark of Cain is so off. There is no demon sword, and Cain murdered Able out of jealousy. And God put the mark on Cain not the devil so if anyone who run across Cain will not kill him. So this is why I do not believe in the story line of this supernatural. Again I only watch the show because of the chemistry of both jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki and how well they work together
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-05-08 02:22
SPN is just having it's yearly Moose hunt .I seriously have to laugh at the shows and Dean's lack of self awareness but when you got a character with kick me on his back to pin things onto then I suppose self awareness is not needed .
They bring Sam back from a chance of a heaven and peace by his brother just so he can feel guilt get pushed into a position he never asked for because Dean got the MOC so he can be blamed for Charlie's death who by the way is Dean's little sister according to both Jensen and the fandom so in others words nothing new.
lala2
# lala2 2015-05-08 11:02
I know you must have loved Dean's line in the Impala when he said something to the effect of: "Didn't I tell you to stop searching" or "Didn't I tell you I didn't want help?" LOL! I couldn't help but laugh at the hypocrisy of that statement, and of course, Sam didn't call him out on it! The worst part is the writers and Carver probably don't even see the hypocrisy of Dean's words. He literally has no right to get mad at Sam for anything Sam did. No right at all IMO.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-05-08 11:40
None his only doing what Dean did last year . Honestly the writing for Sam gives you whiplash who cares if he is lying to Dean and doing anything to save him is that not what people wanted? is that not what Dean has been moping about that Sam would not do anything to save him ? is this not the Sam everybody craved ? well both Dean and fans got the Sam they wished for.
Now we will get the same thing with poor Charlie's death that was ignored over Kevin's .
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-08 11:58
Sharon, 'Yearly Moose hunt' is freakin hilarious! :D I laughed so hard (and hollowly) this morning when I saw it. I am going to use that at every opportunity (and there will be many opportunities I am sure)
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-05-08 12:18
Lol I thought it was apt .
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-08 12:47
*giggle* Jared is listed under moose on Wikipedia!

My definition: Large benign creature that will mind it's own business if you mind yours, and which randomly, and for no particularly good reason, except for sport, finds people taking pot-shots at it on a yearly basis. Yeah pretty apt.

As I mentioned yesterday the guy is in Bruges at the moment. Why he picked this week of all weeks to ask this question I don't know:

Jared Padalecki @jarpad · 5h 5 hours ago Who's awake right now? Will someone tell me something positive that has happened because of #Supernatural? #ThankYoiu

I expect it isn't meant to be as plaintive a request as it comes across :P

ETA: actually the same question is on his Facebook page and the answers are amazing and positive.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 13:05
I don't follow any other social media re SPN, so I'm not sure what he's talking about. Is there a big backlash because of Charlie?
Also I LOVE your definition of Moose.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-08 13:28
There is always a huge backlash when Sam can be accused of something, if the show is egging it on (like they are in this storyline) it gets enormous. Beyond rational sometimes. Sam leaving Martin in the wood to walk home while Sam goes to rescue Amelia - you would think he was skinning live puppies! *eyeroll* The writers should know this, they didn't need to do any of this 'oh Sam is so bad, Sam is lying to Dean, look how bad Sam is' stuff, they didn't need Cas and Charlie TELLING Sam his decision was dangerous etc. The viewers have that covered. It tends to overflow into attacks on Jared. I don't know why, but it does. Something to do with shipping I have always been convinced (though I know that will set a few people off, but I am entitled to my opinion and I can read and interpret a person's username ... )

I didn't think it was as bad as it usually gets but apparently it is. (there are people doing cute-pics-of-Sa m interventions on Tumblr to try and cheer people up because of the vitriol - I like the little corner of Tumblr I am in, it is a tiny pool of positive reinforcement) I try to avoid other Supernatural sites, which don't get onto the Google news feed, which helps somewhat but comments on reviews (and damn it all, the reviewers themselves) are often pretty nasty. I did see one review that was pretty over-the-top on Cinema Blend (with a guy who has the everlasting cheek to link to his own post reviewing Kevin's death when that happened! Talk about double standards!) The comments on that one are very much defending Sam which makes me feel a bit better.

But to get back to Jared's question I think he was just bored and wanted to start a conversation, it just (considering the episode this week) reads like it might mean 'people have been bitching at me about how awful Sam is, and the Show is, for killing Charlie for 3 days now and I am wondering why you continue to watch?' And I don't think that is actually what he is asking at all ;)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-08 14:43
I haven't seen as much accusing of Sam but I don't follow tumblr so I don't know what is being said there. There is a huge backlash in general for Charlies death. The rating on IMDB was supposedly greatly affected because 100's of fans rated the episode a 1. And not because it was bad, poorly written or anything other than a popular character was killed. I'm sure I'm just transferring my own depression on to Jared's tweet but he did sound a little sad.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-08 14:53
To clarify, it doesn't much matter what is said on Tumblr, it is an echo chamber, as long as people are behaving with their tagging (and most people do, except one particular type of shipper who don't seem to understand what tagging is for) you pretty much don't see stuff you don't want to see. It is very easy to make Tumblr a very peaceful oasis :D

I have, as I said, not seen much of the crap this time round, but others on here have mentioned it. And I have seen how bad it gets on many other occasions so I don't feel the need to go looking. Anyway the way the show is choosing to present it all is enough aggravation to make up my daily supply so I am all set. :P
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-08 15:03
I just used tumblr as an example of my very limited exposure to anything SPN outside this website. I do read tons of reviews and so far I haven't seen anyone piling on Sam for Charlie's death at least not yet but it is still early. Having said that I did find this on tumblr this morning....

https://36.media.tumblr.com/c03119c0d2a73a138c04b07f27246b8f/tumblr_no1ng2r5mS1r6h3kvo1_540.png
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 15:05
Thank you Cheryl! I needed that.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-08 15:10
Oh you mean this?

https://36.media.tumblr.com/a8aee217eb6f682de34c4e88651a378f/tumblr_no1h3dcEQT1tt2u3do1_540.png
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-08 15:13
I am way ahead of you both - go look on the promo photo page :D

Click here ("http://www.th ewinchesterfami lybusiness.com/ spoilers/19230- promotional-pho tos-for-superna tural-10-22")
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-08 15:27
How could they look even cuter all covered in mud????:)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 15:32
eilf and Cheryl, thank you much. Those pics are great, and the boys are so cute. I mean that in a fond, motherly sort of way, of course *coughbullshitc ough*.
E
# E 2015-05-09 08:04
Aw!! Don't they look cute all covered in mud. Nice to see that Jared's shoulder seems all healed.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-09 08:14
Jared at Asylum14

https://41.media.tumblr.com/7d79ff51cdc654ce2521dfab3e72f3ba/tumblr_no2t3vV7ZA1tmfxqso2_500.jpg
E
# E 2015-05-09 13:19
Awww! Orange! and a BIG smile! Thanks Cheryl
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-09 13:30
I'm going to have to stop doing this before I get into trouble but....

https://38.media.tumblr.com/092f59de45ec048d17605eeca95d4008/tumblr_no3aexydVm1rof8uqo1_400.gif yes yes you are
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-09 13:35
Keep 'em coming Cheryl, keep 'em coming!;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 15:03
I wasn't watching the show then, but was there a similar backlash when Bobby died? As I state in my comment a little below this, I really don't get the outrage.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-08 15:19
I think there was profound sadness but I don't know about outrage. I know fans were angry. For one thing he got a very appropriate entire episode to his passing. Which was deserving of a character that had been such a fabric of the show. Charlie's death just feels different. Charlie was a well liked (I know not so much here) character that appeared in 6 or so episodes out of 200+. So I don't know if she was deserving of an entire passing into the veil Bobby type episode. But her death seemed so gruesome, she was all alone and died trying to be a hero. I don't know if the difference is that certain communities are outraged or she was considered an innocent by most fans. It is pretty wide spread though.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 15:40
I'm not sure I agree that she should have had a death scene with the brothers, especially given the relative brevity of their relationship. As much as TPTB decided to portray her as a "sister," she probably spent a whopping week total in the boys' company over the course of 4-5 years in SPN time. And what would she have said in that scene? It would have been a very thin line between moving and ridiculously cheesy and these writers would have blown it. To me it actually had more of an impact to have the brothers discover her the way they did. The looks on both of their faces were striking. IMO of course.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-08 17:19
No I agree that a death scene with the brothers would have been a little too melodramatic. And the impact of Sam (specially Sam's reaction) and Dean finding her like that was very overwhelming (for me too). I just think that slaughtering her like that was over the top cruel. And as Lilah pointed out why would they kill her at all. They know she knows where the Book is wouldn't it have been better to KIDNAP her and exchange her for the damned thing?
E
# E 2015-05-09 08:12
I think the fans are angry (and they are, REALLY angry) because Charlie's death seems so undeserved. I think the writers (and I use that term loosely) were attempting to make her look heroic, like she sacrificed her life to upload the book info to Sam before she died. The problem is though, that A) she was only in danger because she suddenly and out of the blue forgot she was a hunter, B) Turned her back on the protection set up by Sam for NO reason that makes any sense C) was suddenly helpless and unable to fight off a half dead, one armed assailant even though she had a knife AND had fought off two perfectly healthy assassins while injured in her previous fight D) Them killing her instead of taking her makes ZERO senses ... because knowing she was kidnapped would have been a better motivator for Dean's aggression than her death was. It was cheap, and nonsensical. Also the manner of her death was brutal in a way the character did not deserve. I think TPTB are probably regretting their decision; it was dumb, it did not serve the ongoing story well, it was uncreative and manipulative. I had no great love for Charlie as a character, but felt she got robbed and certainly Felicia Day (whom I DO like and am a fan of) deserved better treatment. Welcome to Sam's world girl.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-09 08:28
Sounds like there was dissent behind the scenes on the decision to kill Charlie at all. I know RT and JM were against it. I wonder if that is why RT didn't write the episode. I thought it was odd that he wrote Claire's send off but left Charlie to those two.
edit...I just saw your reply to Lilah on discussion page. You already knew about the dissent.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-09 13:09
I find the emotional anger over Charlie's death kind of incredulous. She has known the Winchesters maybe five days through her seven appearances, yet she was the only character (outside of Cas) who was significant enough to drive the Winchester story forward. I didn't see the same anger over Bobby dying or Kevin, for that matter, much more significant characters to the story than Charlie.

Charlie was in danger because she left the protection she had, because Rowena was driving her nuts and she was hellbent on breaking the code to save Dean....just as Sam is hellbent on saving Dean and made the mistake of putting all the Winchesters' friends in danger to do so. Charlie dying was a logical, and I think necessary, outcome to set Dean off and to have Sam probably (and I don't know that for sure yet) double down on his efforts to break the code. That is what I think Sam is going to do -- continue to completely ignore the warningz that the Book would unless biblical proportions of bad, and despite Rowena's warning that when releasing one spell, another had to take it's place. Rowena was talking about balance, and Sam is trying to undo the balance regardless of any warnings he has received. A kidnapping, in that light, was not the answer.

Just my opinion and a reminder that not all fans are angry about the writers' decision. Personally, I think whether or not a viewer liked Charlie depends on whether or not one likes Day's schtick. I wasn't one of those, but acknowledge that we will see Charlie again. Thompson is not going to give up his pet easily.
E
# E 2015-05-09 13:31
Quote:
Charlie dying was a logical, and I think necessary, outcome to set Dean off and to have Sam probably (and I don't know that for sure yet) double down on his efforts to break the code.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Doesn't it make more sense for Eldon to kidnap Charlie and for the Stynes to ransom her for the book? They know that she had it, she was their last link to it, and they could at least surmise that she probably knew where it was (and that would be accurate because she DID know where it was). Basically they killed their best and essentially only link to the book. Having her ransomed would have set Dean off just fine; IMO it would have been a better motivator than killing her and it would have been far more urgent that the brothers DO SOMETHING NOW, because of her predicament. Killing her was moronic, manipulative and dramatically unnecessary considering what they could have done if she'd been held captive.

Quote:
Rowena was talking about balance, and Sam is trying to undo the balance regardless of any warnings he has received. A kidnapping, in that light, was not the answer.
I am not sure what you mean... why would any potential spell or backlash from a spell get in the way of the Stynes kidnapping Charlie? Kidnapping her would have set Dean off AND made it absolutely crucial for Sam/Cas/Rowena to translate the damned thing so that the could fight fire with fire. If they knew what the books said they could fight the Stynes at their own game. How is it that the Stynes have apparently been using this book without any problem for centuries? Obviously any backlash from using it can be managed as they are managing just fine. No reason TFW can't do the same.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-09 13:56
I don't know E. Dean had told Eldon that he thought the book was burned, and as far as Eldon knew Dean had no reason to lie, since he thought Eldon would remain his prisoner. So Eldon had good reason to believe that Charlie was the one who had the book or knew where it was. What would have made sense is for Eldon to torture Charlie to make her give up the book. Maybe he did and she wouldn't break, or maybe she put him in the position where he had to kill her. After all, she was super ninja fighter. And we know that Eldon is the family hothead who almost blew it with the eyeball chick because he couldn't control himself, and he certainly seems to enjoy killing. Plus the Stynes have the magical book finder, so that is their ace in the whole. Bottom line, it's not totally out of the realm of plausibility that he would kill Charlie, or at least what passes for plausibility on SPN lately. And as far as it being a strong motivation for Dean, that's why Charlie has been on 3 episodes recently after having not been on the show in a year and a half, and that's why we're told that the boys are like her brothers and that she loves them. So within the context of the last bunch of episodes Charlie is suddenly family to Dean. I'm not saying I buy it, but they set it up that Charlie comes after only Sam (maybe!) and Cas in Dean's affections, hence his going all demon/psycho/ra ge mode over her death.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-09 13:56
Quote:
Doesn't it make more sense for Eldon to kidnap Charlie and for the Stynes to ransom her for the book?
That may have worked had the MoC story been developed in any way earlier in the season and an episode about that aired earlier, but it wasn't. Had that been done, then the Charlie emotional impact would have not been of much value to the story either. Don't forget that Charlie's death is supposed to have a big impact on Sam, one of the main characters, too. The story is not just what Mark!Dean does when he loses it -- it's about Sam, what he is doing, and what impact his actions have on him. And don't forget that Sam is supposed to love Charlie just as much as Dean supposedly loves Charlie (although there was zero mention of her the year she was off in Oz).

Quote:
why would any potential spell or backlash from a spell get in the way of the Stynes kidnapping Charlie?
I wasn't mentioning this with respect to Charlie dying or being kidnapped. I am referring to what Sam is doing and the impact the entire story has on Sam, as well as Dean. Rowena's warning was to Sam. She told him that to undo one spell, another had to be put in its place for balance. Sam is ignoring this in his desperation to fix Dean, but there will be consequences when he does it...because this is Sam's story, too.

All-in-all, I don't get the "outrage" over Charlie. She was a minor character and her death, IMO, served her well. She died trying to help the Winchesters and she got the information to Sam that she obtained. Her death will drive Sam and Dean's story forward, and by Crowley's Hell, I am so ready to get off these side characters and see a Winchester story; albeit, a three episode story, I cannot find it within myself to give a rat's tale about Charlie's fate. She will get a hunter's funeral. For such a minor character, I think that is quite enough.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-09 13:56
Quote:
Doesn't it make more sense for Eldon to kidnap Charlie and for the Stynes to ransom her for the book?
That may have worked had the MoC story been developed in any way earlier in the season and an episode about that aired earlier, but it wasn't. Had that been done, then the Charlie emotional impact would have not been of much value to the story either. Don't forget that Charlie's death is supposed to have a big impact on Sam, one of the main characters, too. The story is not just what Mark!Dean does when he loses it -- it's about Sam, what he is doing, and what impact his actions have on him. And don't forget that Sam is supposed to love Charlie just as much as Dean supposedly loves Charlie (although there was zero mention of her the year she was off in Oz).

Quote:
why would any potential spell or backlash from a spell get in the way of the Stynes kidnapping Charlie?
I wasn't mentioning this with respect to Charlie dying or being kidnapped. I am referring to what Sam is doing and the impact the entire story has on Sam, as well as Dean. Rowena's warning was to Sam. She told him that to undo one spell, another had to be put in its place for balance. Sam is ignoring this in his desperation to fix Dean, but there will be consequences when he does it...because this is Sam's story, too.

All-in-all, I don't get the "outrage" over Charlie. She was a minor character and her death, IMO, served her well. She died trying to help the Winchesters and she got the information to Sam that she obtained. Her death will drive Sam and Dean's story forward, and by Crowley's Hell, I am so ready to get off these side characters and see a Winchester story; albeit, a three episode story, I cannot find it within myself to give a rat's tale about Charlie's fate. She will get a hunter's funeral. For such a minor character, I think that is quite enough.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-09 14:00
Quote:
Doesn't it make more sense for Eldon to kidnap Charlie and for the Stynes to ransom her for the book?
That may have worked had the MoC story been developed in any way earlier in the season and an episode about that aired earlier, but it wasn't. Had that been done, then the Charlie emotional impact would have not been of much value to the story either. Don't forget that Charlie's death is supposed to have a big impact on Sam, one of the main characters, too. The story is not just what Mark!Dean does when he loses it -- it's about Sam, what he is doing, and what impact his actions have on him. And don't forget that Sam is supposed to love Charlie just as much as Dean supposedly loves Charlie (although there was zero mention of her the year she was off in Oz).

Quote:
why would any potential spell or backlash from a spell get in the way of the Stynes kidnapping Charlie?
I wasn't mentioning this with respect to Charlie dying or being kidnapped. I am referring to what Sam is doing and the impact the entire story has on Sam, as well as Dean. Rowena's warning was to Sam. She told him that to undo one spell, another had to be put in its place for balance. Sam is ignoring this in his desperation to fix Dean, but there will be consequences when he does it...because this is Sam's story, too.

All-in-all, I don't get the "outrage" over Charlie. She was a minor character and her death, IMO, served her well. She died trying to help the Winchesters and she got the information to Sam that she obtained. Her death will drive Sam and Dean's story forward, and by Crowley's Hell, I am so ready to get off these side characters and see a Winchester story; albeit, a three episode story, I cannot find it within myself to give a rat's tale about Charlie's fate. She will get a hunter's funeral. For such a minor character, I think that is quite enough.

Stynes and the Book, whether they know the spells and whether they have used them to get their power has not been told to us yet. It is obvious they recognize the Mark and know what it does to a person, which makes me wonder if the Mark has been passed on to others before Dean and those others turned into demons. As usual, the writers have not made any of that clear. We don't yet know how the Mark works, what it does to a person, or what the purpose of it is yet. One of my major complaints with the season.
Maria Pearson
# Maria Pearson 2015-05-08 13:39
Jared's post says: "Will someone tell me something good that has happened because of Supernatural or Always Keep Fighting" It seems that it was mainly in reference to the latter.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-08 14:12
Yes, but I read his tweet first. And that doesn't mention the Always keep Fighting. It was just how it struck me on first read that I was commenting on.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-08 14:12
Drat. Double post.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 13:02
Quote:
SPN is just having it's yearly Moose hunt


Good one Sharon! :)
Sarah
# Sarah 2015-05-08 06:33
Alice,
I love your reviews. I binged watched the first seven seasons of this show in the summer of 2013. I had no friends who watched it and I whenever I watched an episode that really made me think, I'd go find one of your reviews. I love the in-depth analysis that you use when you review this series. I can tell that you love this show.

But I fully disagree with your assessment of this episode. I respect that there are things that just bother you this season; I get that and I've been there. But as one of the (apparently few) people that enjoyed the episode, I feel the need to rebut some of your points in this review.

On the Steins: I like them. I really like them. I think they're southern ascents make them seem creepier and more entrenched in history and I have no problem with them being descended from Victor Frankenstein. Why does that connection take the believability away? Frankenstein is about hubris, intelligence and power gone astray. It's about a man who broke the laws of nature, created a monster and still believed himself to be one of the most exceptional men in the world. Hubris, intelligence, power and lack of self-reflection or remorse- how are those not good things for villains? I like that the Steins have a history of profiting from terror and chaos- it shows they're smart, patient and successful. Add in their seemingly infinite resources, man power and Captain America strength and they're formidable villains. They see the world as amoral at best and choose to protect themselves by amassing power and profiting from chaos and destruction. They don't want to end the world, they just want to control it. That means the writers can play around with some morally grey plots. Say the Steins choose to use unwilling human test subjects to find a cure for the Croatoan virus. That would put Sam and Dean in the position of saving a couple dozen people in order to prevent the villains from curing a virus that could kill the whole planet. It would force Sam and Dean to confront an ends-justify-th e-means scenario with innocent, anonymous lives on the line. That's something they haven't really had to deal with since the apocalypse. And how does being everywhere take credibility away? The angels were everywhere when they were introduced. So were demons.

I agree that Sam and Dean's interactions were a little off. I believe it's mostly because Dean couldn't possibly conceive Sam being anywhere close enough to actually getting the Mark of Caine off his arm, since he truly believed Sam burned the book.

As for the "let the good guys leave the villain alone so he can escape" being a tired trope, there are no arguments. That's why you add a twist. How many villains escape by sawing their own arms off?

On Charlie's escape: to understand why Charlie escapes, you have to understand the character. She wicked smart, but she's optimistic and naïve. Despite everything she's been through, she still believes heroes get happy endings. And she has no right to believe that- not in the hunting world. It's her hubris that kills her- just like Frankenstein.

As for Charlie's death, why is loyalty and love a bad reason to die? Your version of Charlie's alternate Season 11 storyline is compelling. I would have loved to watch it. But why is the first reason wrong? Because it's cliché? So are brothers who love each other; so are lying villains. Do we truly expect the writers to ignore possible story lines just because they've been used many time before? I'm not arguing for the end of original storylines, but arguing originality for originality's sake is an illogical critique. Ellen and Jo died for love and loyalty. They went on a suicide mission. Jo was mortally wounded by a villain to show that the villain was powerful. She used her final moments to help Sam and Dean fulfill their mission, rather than get them caught by fruitlessly trying to save her. And Ellen died so her daughter wouldn't be alone. Loyalty and love- just like Charlie.

I'm still pissed about Bobby too.

As for the reason for a death in episode 21, they needed to kill someone to prove the villains were powerful and evil. And they need to kill someone whose death would send us into an emotional tailspin for the last two episodes. We're getting to the climax; there has to be rising action.

I hate that they killed Charlie. I loved here for all the reasons you loved her. She was female, nerdy, smart and funny. She was gay without her sexuality being her defining characteristic and she fit in seamlessly with the Winchesters.

But she was always going to die. No one, save the series regulars, have plot armor on this show. It's a horror show with villains who spend nearly every episode trying to kill the good guys. Characters we love have to die, otherwise there wouldn't be stakes. Charlie's death was never a question of "if?", but "when?" We need more fabulous recurring female characters on this show. We need more fabulous female characters on this show period. But the writers' jobs have never been to give us the plots we ask for or protect the characters we love. Their job is to make us care and to make us feel. They owe us nothing else.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-08 09:32
Quote:
And they need to kill someone whose death would send us into an emotional tailspin for the last two episodes. We're getting to the climax; there has to be rising action.
I agree. For hours I was in shock and mourning for Charlie. Then I thought "Holy crap wtf is going to happen in the last two episodes?!"

Quote:
But she was always going to die. No one, save the series regulars, have plot armor on this show. It's a horror show with villains who spend nearly every episode trying to kill the good guys. Characters we love have to die, otherwise there wouldn't be stakes. Charlie's death was never a question of "if?", but "when?" We need more fabulous recurring female characters on this show. We need more fabulous female characters on this show period.
True. She was going to die since she was getting more involved with them. Best stay away Jody Mills! Do not go near them xD

Quote:
Characters we love have to die, otherwise there wouldn't be stakes
THIS! If Bobby was still alive I think it'd be boring. I'm glad he's dead. Yes I said it. I'm glad Kevin is too. They were on the show long enough before they could of become stale and boring. The only deaths I find no shock value in is Sam or Dean. They have overused it now. I felt nothing for Dean dying in S9, partly because I spoiled him becoming a demon before I started the show. oops.

Quote:
But the writers' jobs have never been to give us the plots we ask for or protect the characters we love. Their job is to make us care and to make us feel. They owe us nothing else.
Exactly. Love, fear, anger, shock. These are some of the values of writing that make it good. You may love the touching reunion of characters like Bobby in Heaven. You may fear what Dean will do next week after Charlie's death. You may feel anger at the villain the killed Charlie, and you may feel shock like me at Charlie's death. They fan the flames of your emotions and you yearn for more episodes to consume.

I thought Charlie would get out of that fight alive, but no. Shock! She died! I didn't see it coming.
Maria Pearson
# Maria Pearson 2015-05-08 13:41
Sarah, your response is spot on. I agree wholeheartedly! !
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 14:50
While I found several aspects of the episode very entertaining, I thought much of it was pretty awful. But I do agree with your thoughts about Charlie's death, and not just because I am not a Charlie fan. When I read all of the outrage I just think to myself "what show have you been watching?" They've been killing off friends/family of the brothers since day 1, and to me it's an inherent part of SPN that the boys suffer great loss. Why on earth is Charlie any different than the other Winchester friends who've died? She was not nearly as big or consistent a part of their lives as Bobby and Kevin, and not even as important as Ellen and Jo. Prior to this year, she was only in 4 episodes I think. And the only reason they had her suddenly appear in 3 episodes in quick succession is so there could be a bigger emotional payoff, and a bigger reaction from Dean, when she died. If Charlie had just never come back from Oz I don't think there would have been too much said about it, and certainly little outrage. The show would seem very weird to me if suddenly the brothers had this big network of close friends who get through season after season unscathed. That has never been the kind of lives the brothers have led. I think one reason for the brothers' unusually intense relationship is BECAUSE just about the only constant in their lives is loss and tragedy, and really having only each other to rely on. That has been the show from the very beginning and I for one don't want that to change. Because you're right--since the brothers can never die (sort of!), the only way to have any stakes in this show is to have everybody else's lives on the line. I do still miss Bobby, but to me the ONLY indispensable characters on the show are the brothers. As much as I love Jody, if they kill her off too I will be sad but I will accept it as part of the tragic lives the boys lead.
Russ
# Russ 2015-05-08 07:24
Right there with you Alice ... though I will trade you the Crowley/rodent scene, for a few lines from Charlie & Cas ...

Cas: Dean doesn't know? Sam, this never ends well.
Charlie: That's exactly what I said.
... after she slaps his arm like they've been friends for a decade.

That was funny as shit. I actually burst out laughing (in a good way) when Charlie did/said that.

Then Crowley played darts, and this episode had me, right up until the two bumbling Demons show up. Why are demons now bumbling incompetent morons? So Crowley's a sadistic prick? Good. That should make demons nasty bastards. Lucifer was a pretty gnarly dude, and all his followers were dark, evil, and loved it. What happened to the evil on this show? Which brings me to my next gripe ...

The Stynes. Again, where's the evil? They look and feel about as threatening as a law firm. Which leads me to ...

Introducing new big bad: Did you see that transition from Rowena mocking Sam, to the introduction of the big bad family? Firstly, the music sounded like it belonged in Seinfeld: Down South Edition, and then ... nothing. It's as if we're already familiar with them. No reveal, no menace. Just "hey, blah blah meh"

Casting: Remember when even the lowest of demons was perfectly cast? Now? Well, now the head of the big bad family is one of Phoebe Buffay's boyfriends, whom had a disliking for wearing underwear leading to indecent exposure. Dude's about as menacing as Ross Geller. Which directs me to ...

Production (Directing/cine matography/musi c): Where the hell did creative and quality control go? I'm being told it's the big bad Styne family; I'm seeing protagonist family B from generic soap opera C. Every set is lit and looks like a studio production set. Way too much attention to background colours and shapes, and far too little effort in onscreen presence and performance.

... and why does almost every scene require a redish tint light ever-present in the background? It's unnatural.


For all the writing mishaps and character blunders, it's the production values of this show that have taken a massive hit. No matter who dies, who cries, or who new comes along - it looks like crap. From what I understand, Supernatural was always the odd one out as far as The CW programing goes - but after viewing a few other CW shows over the past couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that the network powers that be, if they can't have it feel like a CW show, at least want it to look like one - and they've succeeded.
Gwen
# Gwen 2015-05-08 07:46
I enjoyed this episode too. Maybe I was just desperately seeking enjoyment and diversion (not a happy U.K camper right now, got me some post Election Blues ) but I liked the episode. I don't have a huge problem with these writers, I mean I'm not a huge fan but there are other writers I dislike more (RT and AG, looking at you). There were a few WTH HUH???? moments but overall the episode kept me entertained, made me laugh and chilled me to the bone so I was quite happy with it.
I liked that we got more of Sam's story, I loved seeing Sam increasingly ever more desperate to save Sam, the poor boy is very quickly unravelling at the seams and I'm both worried and excited to see the lengths he is going to go to in order to save Dean. Loved his 'we all love you, Dean'.

I really enjoyed Rowena this week, not sure why but I loved her calling Sam 'Samuel'. Crowley had some fun lines too, the scene with him talking to the hamster was cute. :D

Dean was really scary when he was circling Sam in the chair. In fact he chilled me to the bone and I was terrified that he was going to hurt Sam. It looked like he could have easily hurt Sam at that point. It does make me scared for what is ahead in the last episodes. I am worried about his reaction to Charlie's death - I hope he's not going to constantly lambast and blame Sam, it wasn't Sam's fault, and instead that he'll see the parallels with Kevin. Even more so I'm very much hoping that he isn't going to hurt Sam but I have this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that he will come the finale.

I'm quite looking froward to seeing where they go with The Stynes/Steins next year. Especially so after reading Sarah's fabulous comments about them above. The eye stuff at the start was horrific, I hate anything to do with eyes. *Shudder*

As for Charlie dying, it didn't really bother me as I'm not a big fan of the character (similarly most definitely not a fan of Felicity Smoak either :p.) I was upset at Bobby and Kevin's deaths but generally I don't get that attached to the side characters. I thought the scene when they found her had great impact, Sam looked like he was about to pass out and/or throw up. His retching noises were stomach churningly effective.

I have had huge issues with some of the episodes this season, quite a lot of them in fact, but this one I was happy with. It's got me on tenterhooks for the next two episodes.
Mel
# Mel 2015-05-08 08:47
So, basically Singer said, "If I make my friends dinner and they don't like it, I'm not going to care since it's all about me anyway." That explains SO much of what's wrong with the show.

I wouldn't have minded the Stynes being the Frankensteins if it hadn't been dumped on us (especially in the 3rd to last episode.) Let Sam & Dean figure it out over time. And to have the Stynes responsible for everything from the Black Death to 9/11 is stupid. This show is best when the Winchesters are faced with a personal dilemma against a single bad guy (with or without minions.) The Leviathans and the Stynes present no dilemma.

And watching "Father Styne" berate his son in a "Dynasty-approv ed" library made me feel like I tuned into the wrong show on CW.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-08 12:11
Quote:
And to have the Stynes responsible for everything from the Black Death to 9/11 is stupid.
I took that as another political statement from the writers....capi talism is bad, corporate America is bad blah, blah, blah. I could be wrong, though, but I have no trust or good thoughts about any of the writers, so forgive me if I am wrong.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-08 09:07
I agree with you on that scene where Sam is busted. That was the most excited I was in the episode.

I thought Charlie's death was alright. I mean.. I felt it was as meaningful as Kevins. What was he doing before he died? Translating things? Charlie was decoding and sending crucial info to Sam. I don't see the problem.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 12:59
Quote:
I agree with you on that scene where Sam is busted. That was the most excited I was in the episode.
I felt the same way. Didn't you think Dean was going to lose it when the phone rang during that conversation? I was half hoping/half fearing that he was going to attack Sam.
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-05-08 14:30
I thought he may of grabbed him by his collar and pulled him up. Man I need to re watch that scene. Loved it!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 15:47
I'm going to re-watch the episode as well, just for the parts that I liked, such as that scene.
Shante
# Shante 2015-05-08 09:09
hi Alice, i agree. its terrible what this show has become now. if there is nothing to come back to for season 11, i too will be out for good. i feel like im back to where i was after the mid-season finale. ?ing why im still here and what the hell is going on? loyalty is keeping me here, and loyalty is pushing me away
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-08 10:13
Completely agree with your review, Alice. This was atrocious; I have no idea what show I'm watching now; it sure as hell isn't Supernatural. The show should have learned in S7 with the Leviathans and tying things too much in to "real world" issues, but they're back for another stab at it with the Frankenberries, I mean Frankensteins. Initially, I was intrigued by the concept/idea of the Stynes; now, with the big reveal in this episode, not so much.

Also noticed that the live ratings are taking a nosedive. Is it true that the live ratings for this episode reached an all-time low, even including S7 on Friday nights? I understand viewing habits have changed, with DVRs, etc., and ratings tend to dip with the improvement in weather this time of year, but this trend seems to be very noticeable. Since you seem to follow/understa nd ratings, just curious as to your opinion on this trend. Do you think fans are throwing in the towel, is it just an anomaly?
lala2
# lala2 2015-05-08 10:51
According to Spoilertv.com, I believe SPN hit a series low this week. Someone noted that the show has shed one-third of its viewership.

Honestly, I'm not surprised. I don't plan on watching next year. The season finale would have to be phenomenal for me to change my mind. Carver killed any love I had for SPN, and this season has been particularly bad. It's worse than last year, and I wasn't a fan of last year's brother conflict. That said, the focus was still on the Winchesters in S9. This year, the focus has been on side characters: Cole, Krissy, Charlie, that other sheriff Jodi hangs out with, and any other random person they can find. J2 have basically been guest stars in their own show for a large number of the episodes. M2 have been completely wasted and misused. Plus, the pacing has been awful. The show has committed - IMO - the worst crime it could: it's boring. I've never been as bored during SPN as I have been for practically every episode this year. Dean's "demon" arc was boring. Unlike many, I didn't like any of the episodes where Dean was a demon b/c Dean was a boring demon. He didn't do anything interesting. He had one good fight w/Cole, but that was it. Sam, for a long time, was non-existent or passed out. Crowley has been whining all year about his mother and killing any demon in his presence, which makes you wonder why the demons haven't teamed up against him. Cas just seems confused and w/o a purpose. This season has just been bad, IMO.

Anyway . . . sorry. Mini-rant over :)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-08 11:21
no need to apologize; i've gone on more mini-rants than I can remember this season :):):) And I'm with you on Season 11.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-08 12:05
Quote:
This year, the focus has been on side characters: Cole, Krissy, Charlie, that other sheriff Jodi hangs out with, and any other random person they can find
The show, excluding the premiere which usually skews higher in viewership, has lost 600,000 of their audience. Considering, I would guess, that the average audience is about 1.8 million, that is a third of the audience. Just an estimate, on my part, and it covers only final rating viewership, but I would think that this has to be a wake-up call to TPTB. One third of a small audience is a huge loss, and it is because the Winchesters have only been guest stars in their own show. The Js are SPN.

I am going to catch the premiere of S11, but if the synopses read that the episode is about another one-off I Could Care Less Character (like a 3-episode arc for Claire Novak), I will only catch the finale after that to see where the Winchesters end up (or their ending, whichever the case may be). I am not watching episode after episode of other characters for another season. This season tried my patience on even making it to the end of this one, but I realize that the ship can't be turned on a dime. They have the summer to correct their course, or I am gone.
lala2
# lala2 2015-05-08 10:34
I've seen that many people found that scene with Dean talking to Sam about the book intimidating, but I didn't. I don't know. It didn't work for me. I didn't find it menacing, and I definitely wasn't afraid for Sam. I found it more awkward b/c Sam was obviously caught in his many lies. For me, I still don't see Dean getting "worse," which is why this MOC "non-story" has not worked for me. Dean is basically Dean as far as I can see. That said, I'm glad you enjoyed the scene.

Anyway, I give this episode a "F." The only scene I liked was Cas's call to Sam that Dean intercepted b/c the awkwardness with which Cas handled the call was very "in character" for him, which is a rarity under this regime. That scene actually made me LOL.

It also doesn't bother me that Charlie is dead. I was never a fan of her character, but the way she died was stupid. Basically, everyone was written in a stupid way (i.e., Dean chaining that guy up by ONE hand, Charlie leaving the safety of the warehouse, Cas being inept in handling Charlie and Rowena, Sam saying Rowena couldn't be left alone when she's been alone for weeks, etc.) just to set up Charlie's lame death. I hate that kind of plot point, bad writing. For me, this episode was poorly written just like every other episode this year except for AAB.

JMO. YMMV.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-08 11:58
Quote:
I was never a fan of her character, but the way she died was stupid.


Being stupid is what got Charlie killed, but I thought that her death was appropriately used. Some call it a plot device, but it's no different than Kevin died -- it moved the WINCHESTER story forward and that makes it worthwhile to me since, for the most part, the MoC story has been nothing more than background noise (not a story at all, IMO), and the Winchesters have played stage furniture, made cameo appearances, or been guest starts in their own story. The other things is that it fit in with the "family" theme running throughout the season. Charlie was a Winchester little sister, and she was used as a significant enough reason to set Dean off and have whatever is going to happen in the next two episodes happen. That is not a waste, no more so than Ellen an Jo, Rufus, Bobby, Ash, and even John. In my book, Charlie was the least of those characters, so no renting of cloth on my part.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-08 10:42
I watched the episode again (even though I said I wouldn't) and I will have to say other than a few things it was an entertaining hour. I understand how Sam was getting so fried that he was making small mistakes. I loved the scene where he got busted. The more menacing Dean got the smaller Sam seemed to get. I really liked Rowena in this episode. She was speaking nothing but truth in the snarkiest way. Her interactions with Sam, Charlie and Cas were very funny. Crowley talking to the hamster was hysterical and now we have a demon lover to uncover. I thought the episode moved along fairly well.
At least this time when the guys left the bad guy alone it was a better thought out scenario than when they left Abaddon. But yes how did he get out of the Bunker and escape so quickly? I understood why Charlie didn't feel in any danger when she left the warehouse(?). She didn't have the Book and she didn't know the Styne's had picked up the Winchesters trail. Except how did they find Charlie? Honestly I think my biggest problem besides slaughtering Charlie was Frankenstein? Really? I had such great hope for the Styne's. Why turn them into cartoon characters? Did anyone else get a Bloodlines vibe from the Styne family chat? Like this maybe the next spinoff/backdoo r pilot attempt. I really really hope not.
Otherwise it was again an odd placement for this episode. I guess this is the catalyst for driving Dean off the rails but that should have happened ages ago. I do have to agree about the pacing and the episode placement this season. I'm getting a little seasick.
Glorie
# Glorie 2015-05-08 11:25
I did like the episode. I'm not convinced Charlie is dead. Definitely got a "Bloodlines" vibe here, too. But I don't mind the Frankenstein story. i like the big bad like the apocalypse and leviathans.

However, I cannot stand the neutering of Castiel. Bring back the sexy, messy haired warrior or whack this wimp that's been in the show lately. I am more distraught over this than the "loss" of Charlie.

I am a Supernatural newbie, however. I am more willing to go along for the ride and see where it goes than to rip things to shreds at the moment.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-05-08 11:31
Alright,

people know me by now here in some extent and that I try to give the good points about episodes and leave my dislikes to the back round. Because well, the good is always a thing to share to make things look brighter, better and well tolerable. I must say that I was entertained by this episode and there were few interesting things that were said that seemed really important.

Dean drilling Sam about the book was intense. He actually seemed taller and bigger than Sam on that scene. I really liked that one. And the episode itself didn't start that bad. It was actually quite good until they caught Eldon. Then the slippery slope went down hill. But alright! The good points.

1. Still like the Stynes and they have potential. The revealing would have been sold better by a different writer like Berens, but more of that later. I also like when the Cthulhu and the books writer was linked to Supernatural. That some books have a truth in them.
2. Loved the music of the episode
3. Rowena was still good in this episode
4. Charlie and solving the codex. How complex it is just interests me.
5. Interesting information
- Maybe a hint what lifting of the curse might cost.
Rowena: "As in any struggle between good and evil a balance is required. To cure one curse Agnes had to know how to inflict another. They live side by side in the magic world. One can not be without the other."
- Rowena's demon lover. Who is he? Maybe we will have a huge reveal on this one. There was a reason the name was kept out of our knowledge. I have speculations.
6. Interaction of the brothers

Now for the bad aka that annoyed me when I watched the episode.

1. Dean catching super strength Eldon that easily at the alley. Maybe rest of the fight was cut or did he want to get caught? Seemed off to me.
2. That was just silly prisoner shackling I have ever seen even though the arm was omg moment.
3. Couldn't Dean have like even little tortured the information out of Eldon? I mean or are the Stynes that arrogant that they ruffle their chest feathers to their enemies. I can only think how the house of Frankenstein would have been revealed by Berens. It has potential and it is a big nemesis so I am still giving the new bad a chance. This scene not so much...
4. There is a reasoning for Charlie but still her heading out from a safety of a warded place. Nggggh, no comments. On the other hand the hotel scene was intense with the music.
5. You have bloody phones people. Learn to use them before it's not too late. Just saying.
6. Cas can't teleport and also he lost Metatron so I am not sure angels can sense where people are anymore. It has been shown that way so Charlie getting away is not that bad gripe for me but the Stynes seem to have a way to find her. How. Who knows.

I still need to recover though from this episode because my caring of this episode is shown below.

Quoting Russ this time:

Quote:
Mental state on the other hand at the moment for the biggest dislike that is that Charlie was killed made all the good and bad things this for me:

Quote:
Sorry for the rant.

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 12:56
Lilah, I'm a wee bit shocked. You rarely say much of anything negative. Also, while I was not a Charlie fan, I'm sorry that you and many other fans found her death upsetting. I'm very familiar with being upset by things that happen on SPN so you have my sympathy.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-05-08 14:40
Yeah, well I am not a Charlie "fan" in that sense. I am more annoyed from the boys perspective. Charlie meant a lot for both of them and again she like people before has been taken from their lives. I was upset for the boys not because my personal liking and don't worry. Probably after a week or so I will be back to my calm, neutral self and hopefully I won't blow up on next weeks episode. I mean, I did find also good in the episode and it was entertaining. But that one thing makes me not want to talk nor think about the episode.

Had actually same reaction to Ellen, Jo, Bobby and Kevin too. The people the boys know are growing thin... *sigh*

And sorry about the cursing. I don't curse. It was the cat! :D

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 15:45
Yeah, that is one foul-mouthed cat. Better report him to Alice!:D
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-05-08 16:26
The cat and I promise to behave! Honest! ;) :D

- Lilah
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-08 23:46
Love the "mental state" kitty!
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-05-09 03:31
:D
E
# E 2015-05-10 17:05
Quote:
5. You have bloody phones people. Learn to use them before it's not too late. Just saying.
6. Cas can't teleport and also he lost Metatron so I am not sure angels can sense where people are anymore.
Actually, the part about the phones and Cas not being able to find people brings up another plot hole; how come Cas didn't call CHARLIE the moment he realized she was missing? He waited and then called Sam and Dean and they spent a whole boat load of time on their "Charlie is missing and has the book info...." yadda, yadda conversation. So Cas didn't call Charlie because why? Were he could have talked to her BEFORE she knew she was in danger and figure out where she was? Ugh... the more I think about it the worse it gets.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-05-10 17:13
There is also the way Eldon was manacled http://eisforeidolon.tumblr.com/post/118430653766/deansbeerbottle-im-thinking-that-eldon-styne. Sam and Dean really needed a different sized manacle and Eldon apparently was in the mood for a new arm.
E
# E 2015-05-10 18:03
Yeah... it appears that the worst that should have happened was that Eldon might have dislocated a thumb getting out of that thing. Why is the show being so stupid?
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-08 11:51
While I agree with many of your points, especially the main one about the writing for this show and the fact that none of them seem to be much interested anymore; personally, I thought enjoyed this episode more than I have most of them this season. My enjoyment mostly came from the fact that the episode focused on the Winchesters for a change. All of the tension and suspense in the episode was not about whether or not Charlie would die -- it was about the slow reveal of Dean finding out about Sam's lying. I thought Dean was completely in character throughout the whole episode; not dumb, but patient. Dean is a violent, smart, and very patient man. I absolutely loved the dialogue of him telling Sam that he knew about the Book, and he was scary as hell when doing it. I also love Sam when he can't tell a good lie when he knows he's going to be in deep trouble. It's cute and funny, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I appreciated the fact that Lemming-Ross/Bu ckner took away all the sparkly from Charlie. I hate the Charlie character just because she was written to be better and smarter than the Winchesters and everyone instantly falls in love with her. Rowena didn't, and I loved seeing the two of them going round and around. I loved Rowena and her head games in this one. I also think that she has the answer to the spell and is just stalling while waiting for a chance to make her escape. Since Cas' step-daddy issues were resolved, there really isn't any reason for him not to be put in charge of babysitting the redheads. He's got nothing better to do at the moment.

I agree that tying the Stynes to Frankenstein is fantasyland stuff. I didn't like the Oz thing either. I had hopes for the Sytnes, but I think they are just Dean fodder now that will lead to whatever it is Dean does in the finale. And that is the big question, isn't it? If Dean is going after them in the next episode, what will Dean be doing in the finale?

I am joyous Charlie is gone. I hope she stays gone. She was the first character introduced that started the diminishing of the Winchesters, their backstory, of hunting, of family, and of the foundational premise of the show. I wished the writers would kill off the rest of them and put the Winchesters as the hunters they should be, put hunting back as something not everyone, including kids, can learn in an afternoon at the library or from books, and have the self-sacrifice they do and the losses they have suffered mean something.

Despite the faults and flaws I saw in the script, it kept me fully engaged, which hasn't happened very often for me this season, so I chalk it up as one of the better episodes of the season. I could have done without so much mustache-twirli ng from the Stynes, but as long as Dean can kill two of them at a time; no Mark needed, they don't bother me. It is a little odd that these dipsticks encounter a human wearing an ancient, Biblical mark that only one other person in known history has ever had and their only interest is, "Oh, you have the Mark. I'm sorry." Hubris, arrogance, stupidity, and under-estimatin g the Winchesters never works out well. They are dead men walking, for sure.

Oh, and BTW, I think the hamster is as stupid as linking the Stynes to Frankenstein and Oz, but it's nice to have the King back from his mommy sobbing.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-08 12:53
I agree with many of your points Ginger. There were some very entertaining scenes in the episode and it certainly kept my interest. But on balance I thought the ridiculous, contrived plotting and OOC actions by some of the characters far outweighed the good. However, I did prefer it to many of the mid-season episodes which also featured poor plotting and characterizatio n, but were horribly boring to boot. I'll take entertaining crap over boring crap any day. And I too am not sorry to see the last of Charlie, so unlike many other fans, her death was not a big negative for me. Although even the set up for her death was ridiculous in many ways.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-05-08 17:08
Quote:
hate the Charlie character just because she was written to be better and smarter than the Winchesters and everyone instantly falls in love with her. Rowena didn't, and I loved seeing the two of them going round and around.
The way Thompson wrote her it isn't exactly out of character for her to run away when she has a boo boo, but in reality so what if Rowena tore her sparkles apart Charlie couldn't suck it up and deal so staying where she was protected. Charlie going in the manner she did, running away and meeting up with a big bad who'd kill her, I'm sorry was the most likely way the character was going to go.

Also how are the Stynes linked to Oz?
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2015-05-08 12:39
I wasn't really enthralled with this episode. First off, I'm royally pissed at them for killing Charlie, and secondly, if they were going to kill her, they should have written a much better death scene. Not just the guys arriving too late. I agree with BookLady, she should have had the Winchesters by her side at least. And if TPTB decided to make both Misha Colllins and Mark Sheppard regulars this season, they certainly did not utilize their talents very well. Although I found Crowley conversing with a rodent somewhat amusing but not condusive to the plot, he has lost his bite. Really, killing the shaking messenger that tells him his mother is gone? There was a time where the demons should have been deathly afraid of Crowley, that time, sadly, is no more. And what to say about Castiel? Sigh. I am so bloody disappointed in where they have taken his character. As much as I love Misha Colllins and Castiel, if the writers cannot find a better storyline for the guy, get rid of him. But, please, do it better than the way you got rid of Charlie. What a senseless death...again. And the Stynes are the Frankensteins, really? Yep, doc Benson would have loved to run into these guys. :D I would have preferred they be more like the Thules or some other sort of evil secret society. I don't like these two writers. What a wasted opportunity. I don't often complain about SPN episodes, but we are almost at the end of the season and this one could and should have been better.
malaval21
# malaval21 2015-05-09 03:59
I read through most of your comments and has no one considered that Charlie probably isn't dead? If you look at the last shot of her in the bathtub, they don't show her arm. My guess is her arm was used to replace the Styne man's ( gruesome yes but better than a dead Charlie) . And hopefully Castiel can heal her... here's hoping !
E
# E 2015-05-11 18:37
Sorry.. the preview shows the boys burning her body. She's well and truly dead.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2015-05-09 23:22
Gee Alice, tell us how you really feel! lol. I actually liked the episode and found it scary, edge of your seat anxiety. I also loved the the scene when Dean interrogated Sam about the book. Jensen and Jared did a terrific acting job there. I've been reading Twitter and other sites and they generally like this episode. As for Charlie, I too am bothered by losing another of my fave characters. I find that my other shows keep killing people off also and I would love this trend to STOP! It makes fans mad and sometimes there really is no purpose other than to shock. We've had enough shocks of this kind on this show. Charlie was a wonderful character, but I was surprised to find there are a lot of fans who do not like Charlie and are glad to be rid of her. Also I found out on Twitter that Robbie Thompson and Jim Michaels did not want Charlie killed off. I think you need to direct your anger to the show runners-Jeremy and Robert.
Lilmac48
# Lilmac48 2015-05-10 16:37
Thank you Alice for your review. You were spot on. And yes you can add me to the list of those who definately did not want to see Charlie killed. Her character grounded the guys and they had someone that they could confide with. She became part of their family as much as Cas is. I'm pretty sure it was to make Dean go all Demony but they could have easly done that with just making her getting seriously injured but still alive. The way the storyline has been trending it wouldn't have taken much for Dean to go on a vengence route. Yes I was upset when Kevin and Bobby were killed but not as upset as I am with Charlie's death. It was so pointless.
E
# E 2015-05-10 17:12
Quite frankly they don't need anything to make Dean go all demony... he's got the MoC, he should be going demony all by himself; he should have been going demony all season long, they keep telling us that he is, but they sure aren't showing it. They didn't need Charlie's death or anyone else. Dean becoming a demon (again, and don't even get me started on THAT tired retread) should just be a natural course of events, its what the plot is supposed to be about, he shouldn't need the "motivation."
Fi
# Fi 2015-05-12 08:07
Yes! I'm so pleased this has been picked up. As Crowley said "It's the bloody Mark of Cain!" meaning it doesn't need any motivation. Meaning Charlie's death was crowbarred in there for no good reason; I say that as someone who does believe that even favourite characters have to die and I loved Charlie. Scenes where the boys could talk to her about things they can't say to each other were some of my favourites, especially with Sam since he's a more reserved character so we did get more of his point of view.
Again with not needing motivation (the writers really do need to have more faith in their own plot devices) I'd go as far back as saying they didn't need to have Sam keep secrets from Dean at all. He was doing nothing wrong in continuing to try and find a cure and that includes researching the Book of the Damned, they are Men of Letters so it's their job. All that was needed was to keep the book away from Dean and warded. Finding a cure wasn't just about saving Dean, if the Mark takes over then there will be victims as Dean might not just stop at killing demons and douchebags and I wish the writers would have let Sam use this argument with Cas and Charlie rather than have him emotionally blackmail them. Sam has come so far as a character, he has a much better understanding of the bigger picture (even if he can't always stick with it and that's fine) and he does not deserve to be made into a scapegoat just so that the writers can use the storyline of his so-called betrayal to push Dean over the edge. Remember it's the bloody Mark of Cain! No pushing necessary....
Cody mb
# Cody mb 2015-05-11 15:47
On my phone and its dying so I'll make this quick...wow alice you really hated this episode! I know where youre coming from. Female characters always dying, the script being lazy with so many out of character moments, etc..I'm not a fan of shock value stuff, but I've said this previously- I'm really hoping this death is setting up for the next two episodes with Dean losing it. Charlie was one of the closest to him, especially because he looked at her as a kid sister, so it makes sense that her death is the catalyst for Dean going nuts. The way it was written gives you every reason to doubt what I've said and feel the way you do though...I will say this however, until this episode I haven't been on any sites regarding spn in two years. My ex gf never has. We watched the episode at different times but both expressed genuine emotion at what happened to Charlie. Maybe because my ex isn't the smartest, and I intentionally turn my brain off to enjoy most episodes, I focused on her sacrifice and conveniently let myself forget how ridiculous it was for her to end up in that situation in the first place....

Spot on about Crowley. My FB status immediately after the ep was "only spn can have the king of hell speak to a hamster and everything seem normal" I loved that...I don't read spoilers but I have my theories as to how this season finishes which I'll probably post in a bit. Steins/Frankens teins was telegraphed a mile away. Crappy reveal, hopefully don't make it to season 11. Amen on the Levis lol
Ellen Duran
# Ellen Duran 2015-05-11 19:14
That's you Alice!
You hit on all the things wrong with this episode! I am so upset over the killing of Charlie that for the first time ever I don't want to watch the show! And it hurts to say something like that!! I of course will continue to watch because Jensen and Jared are just so awesome, but the show has lost my respect...and it saddens me to say that too!!

They seem to just kill characters just for the sake of killing them and that it annoying and insulting to the viewers.

I thought that the best part of the episode was the boys reactions to seeing Charlie's body, they did so well showing reactions of disgust...still doesn't make me feel better about the episode though...

Oh and if this is how they're going to treat characters please NEVER bring Sheriff Mills back...I don't want to see her killed off too.