Welcome to episode three of a three episode arc telling the captivating tale of wayward Claire Novak and her cross country (or at least the Midwestern) misadventures.   For those of you who read my stuff, you’re probably sensing the dripping sarcasm in that sentence.  Still, this won’t be a negative review.  For the record, I’ve hated this season’s Claire story line and thought it was a huge mistake from the word go (“The Things We Left Behind” ranking as my second worst episode of the season so far).  However, Robbie Thompson did do a good job of cleaning it all up and sending it on its way. We got another stark contrast between Sam and Dean, saw how Castiel is being setup for some kind of doom, and we finally got closure for poor Jimmy Novak.  It permits us to get on with the important stuff, like debating whether or not Jodie Mills and her two teenage misfits will be your next “Supernatural” spinoff.  

Keep in mind when I say, “good job,” the episode was serviceable, but far from extraordinary.  “Angel Heart” took a risky break from all the drama surrounding the Mark of Cain, coming when the mytharc should be in full action instead of devoting the 20th episode of the season to a momentum killer.  While the story definitely added some needed closure to an open thread of the season, the pacing was too slow for my tastes (although it wasn’t as glacial as episodes earlier this season). This is the part of the season where we’re supposed to be energized and excited and that all that filler we endured up to now has come to pass.  So yes, more filler, whether it was done well or not, is still a buzz kill.  Despite all that, there were pluses to “Angel Heart,” and they mostly fell into the character study category.    

Sam, Dean and Castiel

The part I liked the most was that BOTH Sam and Dean got to interact with Claire and have their bonding moments.  That tactic has traditionally been reserved for one or the other (aka mostly Dean), so it was nice to see it happen on both sides.  While both Sam and Dean were encouraging Claire to take on the hunting life, they were far from being on the same page on why that should be. 

Claire was far more manageable this go around, and I attribute that to the writer knowing exactly how to write for a teenager.  Claire seemed a little more wise to the world and willing to listen to reason.  In fairness though, who could resist those Sammy puppy dog eyes and Dean’s “who cares” bravado?  Heck, she was even nice to the crap angel wearing her dad.  When a character is watchable, it does help in digesting the rest of the plot.  

My favorite scene was Claire and Sam talking about of all things, mommy issues - as in Sam didn’t have any because his mother died when he was a baby.  That stopped resentful Claire cold in her tracks, which meant she wasn’t a heartless bitch after all.  I did have to take pause when Sam said he and his mother got along okay when he got to know her later in life.  Sure, he did spend some time with her in both “The Song Remains The Same” and “Dark Side of the Moon,” not to mention the brief ghost encounter in “Home,”  but those were hardly mother/son bonding moments.  Even the big hug and tenderness he got in “When The Levee Breaks” was a heart crushing hallucination (and one of my favorite scenes of all time).  I get the intent was to give Claire hope that death isn’t the end, but it was odd.  

I digress though, because that observation isn’t important.  For me, it solidified the fact that Claire will be a hunter, well before we got all the other hints.  Her odd look to Sam’s statement was the right one, how do you get to know your mother AFTER she’s dead?  Welcome to the Winchester world where death does not mean goodbye.  That girl is going to cling to that sentiment like glue. 

SUP 1020 AngelHeart 001

Sam, who by his conversation with Castiel was in the “Claire shouldn’t go it alone” camp, decided that teaching her how to hack into personal information, create fake credit cards, and go through the finer points of Alias Naming 101 was the type of training she needed to get started.  This all adds to the dilemma I’ve had lately with Sam’s shaky moral ground. Remember last year’s awful disaster “Bloodlines?”  Sammy was adamantly lecturing poor Ennis to avoid going down the road that he did, aka hunting.  It would ruin his life.  So, here’s an even younger girl, Jimmy Novak’s daughter nonetheless, and he’s going through a mini Hunter’s Boot Camp with her?  What happened to things like “get a job” or “live on the straight-and-narrow?”  Or better yet, “Don’t become a hunter, it’ll get you killed!” 

This all extends my current beef about Sam “loving” hunting after hating it his whole life.  This suddenly means he’s willing to mentor others to embracing the life as well?   I remember him back in season four playing mentor with Adam in “Jump The Shark,” but that was because Adam was a Winchester and people would always come after him.  Did he see that same situation with Claire?  I think he’s currently in an all strategy mode and has cut off the human aspects of the situation, probably for the sake of his own sanity given what he’s doing for Dean.   For anyone that doesn’t see how dark and scary Sammy gets when he goes into that mode, you just aren’t looking hard enough.  He masks it well.   

On the other side is Dean.  He’s a little more blasé about the whole thing, which tells us he’s in bad MOC mode this week.  After all, he grabbed a scumbag that wouldn’t give him info and banged his head on that table.  He’s out of control!  He’s getting worse!  We’ve seen him massacre beings into a bloody pulp before but banging a guy’s head on the table is going too far!  Dean isn’t getting worse.  Look at the way he handled Claire.  He’s far more together than his brother or angel friend. 

My other favorite scene was Dean and Claire playing mini golf.  Hey, I’m simple.  Cross Winchester playing mini golf off the wish list!  I don’t buy the Caddyshack vs. Happy Gilmore argument one bit.  In my household, even my young son, we treasure both movies.  Happy Gilmore isn’t that recent, so how would Claire know that one?  Again, that’s nitpicking and missing the point.  Claire has been missing positive influences since her Dad left and even with the Mark of Cain, Dean proved he can leave a positive and lasting impression on a wayward youth.  It worked with Chrissy, so he’s a natural.  He was wise enough to tell her that hunting was the fastest way to getting killed young, but he wasn’t going to stop her from choosing that life.  She is after all an adult now.  That’s not the sign of a brutal killer that lacks compassion and understanding.  He truly wants to help but accepts others must choose their own path.  This will stick with Claire when she becomes that hunter.  It might even inspire her to save him someday.    

What I don’t get though why Dean thought Claire should go it alone.  I realize that it’s not realistic for Castiel to be saddled with the responsibilities of a teenager, but it doesn’t seem like Dean’s style to abandon a young girl out there on her own.  It’s not like he was left on his own.  He at least let her keep a weapon, but that hardly assures survival.  She’s green.  Is this really Dean thinking he’d be better off alone?  

I liked his honesty with Claire when she asked if he’d be okay.  He didn’t know, but he’s clearly accepted his fate.  It sounded like he was reading from a script, tired of telling himself that he’ll go out swinging.  It’s his go to line, and clearly shows that his internal reflection hasn’t figured it all out yet.  It also sounded like he’s ready for all of this to be over, and he’ll probably be getting that wish soon.  Dean’s resignation about the whole thing just makes me sad.  

Castiel was between a rock and a hard place.  He got two pieces of different advice from Sam and Dean as to what he should do and neither were really helpful.  Cas hasn’t gotten his own life figured out yet, let alone what he should do with someone else’s.  That’s why I found it interesting that in the end, Claire asked Dean to keep an eye on him.  Uh oh.  Does this mean Castiel is going to die?  I mean geez, they’ve been taunting it since “The Executioner’s Song.”   Or will her request be the thing that spares Castiel’s life since Dean is supposedly going to kill him?  I’m not sure where all this recent soul searching is leading Castiel and the show has been horrible revealing what he’s thinking.  Knowing that Claire is in the safe hands of Jody has to give him the comfort he needs, and there were tears to prove it.  So what does this mean for Castiel?  I’m worried.  

BTW, how awesome was Castiel’s birthday gift from “Hot Topical?”  A grumpy cat!  Brilliant!  I did love that Claire kept that gift along with the angel sword.  Castiel gets to pick all the birthday gifts from now on.  

The Rest

If “Angel Heart” did one thing, it exposed itself to all sorts of little inconsistencies and errors that are just too hard to avoid.  I do get that most of them were clearly victims of continuity errors that have been plaguing the season, but still, they’re there!  

10

I do get why such attention was given to the whole Novak family story.  In the numerous debates that happen among SPN fans on sites such as this one, the plight of Jimmy and his family has been a hot topic for a while now.  So, from the perspective of a “Supernatural” writer, when you’re breaking a season and realize your mytharc doesn’t have enough meat to it to satisfy the appetite of a 23 episode season, you go for those unresolved side stories.  This one was especially ripe because they had Misha Collins as a regular and they had no freaking idea what to do with him (where’s Ben Edlund when you need him the most?).

Still, I don’t feel like I learned anything from this arc, unlike the first time when we actually got to meet Jimmy Novak in season four.  To me the lesson back then was clear, there were vessels behind these angels and they did have real families and real lives.  There was a toll to an angel coming to earth.  No doubt this whole thing has had a devastating effect on the Novaks, but the way the arc was presented this season was wasteful and useless.  It sent the clear message from the producers, “We are out of ideas!”  We would have been perfectly okay with this being done in one episode revisiting the story and giving it closure, and it happening right around episode 14 somewhere when we needed a breather.  

To see Jimmy and Amelia reunite in Heaven was a sweet and touching scene, but didn’t we just have an episode in Heaven a few weeks ago with Bobby that shows the place is nothing but angel mind control?  How it’s not the idyllic place it should be?  Why did Jimmy get a perfect Heaven and Bobby got Kenny Rogers on the radio and a trashy Tori Spelling book?  Weren’t Bobby’s contributions to the world more important that what Jimmy Novak did?  I still resent the cynical view of Heaven and angels and the notion that everything is crappy, even in the afterlife.  What we got here was pure and sweet and it goes against everything this show has told us so far.  I really wish these writers read each other’s stuff, because after this I wish Andrew Dabb had kept his dour interpretation to himself.  I’m guessing that at least half of you though are saying the same thing about Thompson’s interpretation!  

Speaking of interpretation, there is one issue that came up that I shouldn’t gloss over, because I noticed it as well.  How exactly did Castiel save the world?  I read a lot of people on Twitter last night thinking that comment undermined, or worst yet totally took away the credit, of Sam’s sacrifice in “Swan Song” which actually did save the world.  In reality, Castiel’s role in team free will was crucial and without him they wouldn’t have gotten all the horseman’s rings, and he did get Michael out of the way long enough for Dean to get through to Sam.  Robbie Thompson defended that the line was changed at shooting time and I could see that “saved the world” was a cleaner line than “He was part of the team that essentially saved the world.”  So, I’ll let it pass, even though we all know that Sam saved the world with Dean’s help.  

In the revisiting a popular trope department, how nice was it to see Sam knocked out, handcuffed, and having to listen to the monologuing villain (yes, it’s that dripping sarcasm again).  I did enjoy that they used the Grigori mythology.  I’ve always thought this show has been missing opportunities tapping into the different kinds of angels and demons and the lore behind them (there’s a wealth of material in the Book of Enoch!).  I wish that he had tried to suck a part of Sam’s soul and choke on its taint.  After all, Sam was possessed by Lucifer himself, not to mention the whole trial thing and being possessed by an angel.  His soul has to be changed by all that.  Opportunity lost.  Ah well, I’ll save that for the fan fiction.  

I did have a big problem with the ending on pure logistics alone.  Why or why was Claire being shipped off Sioux Falls in a cab?  Sam and Dean in the Impala is incapable of delivering a teenage girl to Jody, especially when it’s not too far from Lebanon, Kansas?  Google map alert, it’s a six hour drive, which is nothing when the Impala moves at light speed. :) It was all contrivance for dramatic effect and setup that way because “Jody Mills is not appearing in this episode.”  It didn’t sell for me.    

If you notice a theme in all my little digressions in this review, it’s that little of it is relevant to the overall arc for season ten, which is true of this episode in general.  “Angel Heart” at its core as filler, finishing a mistake as cleanly as possible that was made several episodes ago.  Kudos Mr. Thompson for your skill at damage control.  For me, consider this one analyzed.  I’m moving on.  Next year for episode 20, be prepared for the Jodie Mills planted spinoff taking place at her home for teenage wayward hunters and ex-monsters.  I’m on board.  Overall grade, a B-.  


Just for fun:

I came up last week with a couple of motivational posters based on a very interesting screencap in the promo photos.  I'm not sure if I'll share either of these on the main page.  Are either of these your favorites?  Dare I share one or both of these in our collection? 

goingmedievil001

Umm



Comments  

NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 01:19
My understanding is that everyone's heaven is their own perfect place. Bobby likes being in a log cabin listening to KENNY ROGERS :)
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2015-05-01 08:37
I agree with you Nola. I remember in the episode "Weekend at Bobby's" where he sits down to eat that peach cobbler. He kicks off his shoes, turns on the tele, and is about to dig in, and he keeps getting interrupted. I think that being in his living room listening to Kenny Rogers and reading trash (sorry, I can't stand Tory Spelling) would be his idea of Heaven. The only thing missing was his wife.
Russ
# Russ 2015-05-01 01:54
Quote:
Sam, who by his conversation with Castiel was in the “Claire shouldn’t go it alone” camp, decided that teaching her how to hack into personal information, create fake credit cards, and go through the finer points of Alias Naming 101 was the type of training she needed to get started. This all adds to the dilemma I’ve had lately with Sam’s shaky moral ground. Remember last year’s awful disaster “Bloodlines?” Sammy was adamantly lecturing poor Ennis to avoid going down the road that he did, aka hunting. It would ruin his life. So, here’s an even younger girl, Jimmy Novak’s daughter nonetheless, and he’s going through a mini Hunter’s Boot Camp with her? What happened to things like “get a job” or “live on the straight-and-narrow?” Or better yet, “Don’t become a hunter, it’ll get you killed!”

This all extends my current beef about Sam “loving” hunting after hating it his whole life. This suddenly means he’s willing to mentor others to embracing the life as well? I remember him back in season four playing mentor with Adam in “Jump The Shark,” but that was because Adam was a Winchester and people would always come after him. Did he see that same situation with Claire?
My take on it is that Sam has finally stopped fighting the inevitable. He's not going back to college. Settling down, leaving the family business, was a non-starter the moment he came back from hell. He 's also seen enough to know that pep-talks don't really work. Everybody in and around his life gets sucked into it one way or another, so why fight it? Teach them some basics and let them have a fighting chance. It's far less weight on his conscience than a contrite speech, then washing his hands of them as he nudges them out the door, left to their own devices.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-05-01 02:01
Quote:
Next year for episode 20, be prepared for the Jodie Mills planted spinoff taking place at her home for teenage wayward hunters and ex-monsters.
I took it that was going to be the whole of next season's MOTW episodes. Sam and Dean sending their newbie hunters out to deal with minor monsters after they officially make Jodie 'hunter den mother'. Because have you notice they only really invest real on screen with potential newbies (who surprisingly fit the CW mould) since getting the bunker but not experienced hunters, they get conversations on the phone. Hell Charlie gets invited to the bunker, Garth never did even pre werewolf.

It kind of feels a bit like the men of letters, only set hunters get MoL investment. But considering Claire's, Krissy's and Alex's ages it looks like Sam and Dean will be getting someone to raise them into the life.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 02:08
Henry called hunters ''brutes'' or barbarians or animals. Only very few hunters interacted with MoL.
Fazzie
# Fazzie 2015-05-01 12:54
Henry also said that men of letters shared their results with the very elite and they did the rest. Dorothy walked into the bunker because of her connection to her father who was a men of letters, not because she was a good hunter in their eyes.

The MoL deemed who were the elite, who was worthy and who would play to their rules and the scruffy lot Bobby looked after probably wouldn't get a look in. Unfortunately the ones Bobby looked after and, Garth too, are experienced hunters. They are the ones the boys are on the phone too but they aren't the ones getting screen time and emotional investment. The ones who have been getting screen time and obviously have the boys investment tend to be very young, photogenic (CW friendly) and/or are getting initiated into the life.

Even though you can say that the boys are just supporting decisions of independently mind people and it is the CW policy to cast young actors from the outside the guys are essentially raising hunters who will be more malleable than the experienced hunters that are already out there. And considering it is a horror show it as much a CW show it kind of can be looked at that way instead of 'yeah the Winchester finishing college for troubled young women' is next seasons thing.

Now I know they are doing the scenes where they are talking to other hunters but they are holding back, because we have seen more monsters invited into the bunker than hunters. Where as Charlie, Claire and Chrissy well they'd have the full resources of the bunker if required and we'd be unlikely to question it because we've seen the boys be connected to them in fact they didn't really discourage Charlie at all being a hunter or really attempt to put Claire or Chrissy off as much as we have seen in the past (season 3 where Dean told a hunter he shouldn't be out there or he'd get killed and Bobby being upset at Dean being sucked back in)

Which is probably not too far from the MoL did - hunters they fully trusted got their attention and they may have supported in hunting, those they didn't got minor help because they were brutes and apes.
lalarks
# lalarks 2015-05-01 06:32
I don't know if it means anything, but this is the second song about blue eyes. I'm getting a BAD feeling about Cas.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 07:10
Alice I agree with just about every word you said. My comment in Bookdal's thread is almost identical in certain respects. But the real purpose of my comment here is to tell you that as I innocently sat here a couple of minutes ago reading your review, all dressed up in my work clothes, nodding my head in agreement, I came upon the poster with your caption at the end. I literally barked out a laugh, which was truly unfortunate since my mouth was full of tea. That caption is hilarious!!!!!! !! Off to change my clothes before work!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-01 08:10
The line about Cas saving the world was to show Claire her fathers sacrifice was not in vain but a heroic act. Dean didnt go anymore in depth than that because situationally it wasnt needed. Çlaire wouldnt have cared less about the details. Dean didnt say it to diminish anyone elses contributions. Much over reaction occured over this line with both the writer and Jensen being attacked. Fandom self entitlement rides again in all its self attributed power and glory. And if it sounds like I am disgusted with them, I am.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-01 10:47
Who is attacking Jensen? I haven't seen anywhere anything posted about Jensen changing the line. RT said the line was changed during filming. He didn't elaborate on who changed it. It could have been the director. And even if Jensen changed the line so what. You either had a problem with the line or you didn't. I do agree with you that it wasn't the time for reminding the fandom what we already knew, it was a moment to make Claire (who didn't know about Jimmy's sacrifice) feel better about her dad.
To Alice...
Would this episode have worked better if it had aired earlier in the season? I get the feeling that it got lost in the shuffle and they suddenly realized that Claire's story was left unfinished. So it got plugged into an unfortunate spot in the rotation. And I'm sorry a band of teenage girl hunters isn't going to be a show for me, just no.
I did like the moments with Claire and the brothers. Sam being very practical and Dean being just as snarky as Claire in the miniature golf game was kind of sweet.
The scene in heaven with Jimmy and Amelia would have meant more if they hadn't been so blasé about Claire's situation. But I do love they were reunited.
How does the fandom send a memo to the show that having Sam knocked out/tied up is getting (well not getting to be, has been for a while) ridiculous. At least no one had to save Sam this time.
I also thought that the Grigori would have been a perfect opportunity for Sam (and us) to see how well his soul is doing.
On second watch I liked the episode much better but I will agree with a B- grade mostly for the placement in the season. The best part for me remains the wonderful Willie Nelsen song while Claire was looking up at heaven. Actually it made tear up a little.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 12:02
Absolutely nobody is attacking Jensen. There has been nothing more than minor speculation that Jensen changed the line, and if he did nobody really has much to say about him on it since he is not the person driving the storyline.
I haven't seen a single tweet saying anything bad about Jensen, I have seen a fair number being insulting to fans with a genuine beef about storyline issues though.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-01 12:35
agreed - saw complaints about the change in the line, but no complaints about Jensen on twitter. Although Robbie certainly didn't help matters by tweeting #calmdown :):) And you're right, there were probably more "just shut the hell up and enjoy the show" tweets then there were people complaining about the line change.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 12:40
If RT tweeted that, it indicates they ARE aware (at least somewhat) of fan discontent. Hmmmm *trying to figure out if it's worth getting a twitter so my voice can be heard--nah*
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 13:16
While Erik Kripke came out to clarify (and apologise) that bad things that were said about Dean in show were part of the storyline and that fans should not think they were really saying bad stuff about Dean, and the writers on a regular basis pander to the noisy fans of a certain ship, and male characters that the fandom like get brought back with impunity even if it involves rewriting or ignoring what those characters have done previously, there is no evidence whatsoever that they listen to the problems the rest of us have with the writers screwing around with canon as long as it is only Sam who comes out looking bad in the process.

Yes I get that that is all one ridiculously long sentence but sometimes long sentences are required ....

There is no point at all complaining to RT on Twitter, that only works for the segments of fandom who have the same opinion as him as to who is the central character (singular) of this show. Also going on twitter will make you angry :-)
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 13:47
In the interests of not upsetting people, and because we have had this conversation a few times before (because it never gets addressed or fixed by the writers) I am happy to move over to the discussion page where we should be able to discuss it without being called 'haters' with any luck. This is a pretty good thread for it link: Problems with the writing for Sam and lack of support of the character by the writers ("http://www.th ewinchesterfami lybusiness.com/ lets-discuss/wh at-do-you-think -of-sam-winches ter-s-season-10 -storyline").
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 13:52
Maybe I'll follow you over there. I was just about to respond to your Fan Fiction comment when you edited it out.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 14:05
Well since that is entirely my opinion and I can't prove it I moved it to a less contentious spot. ;)
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-05-01 13:34
Your voice will not be heard on Twitter by Robbie or any of them.
SueB
# SueB 2015-05-01 09:38
My answer to the cab decision:
- I figure the cab was to get to the Tulsa bus station
- Sam gave her a credit card so she has fare for both
- Claire may have wanted time alone. She just lost her mother and as grateful as she is for at least stopping that Grigori from feeding off her Mom, she may not want to be around adults asking her 'are you okay' every couple of hours.

So, I was okay giving her financial means and setting her up with Jodi. If she goes its 100% her choice versus beefing dropped off. I kinda like the independence.
Ginger
# Ginger 2015-05-01 12:05
That was a fair assessment of the episode, Alice, but I give it an F-. Personally, for me, it was atrocious...Blo odline atrocious -- but then I don't care for the After School Special-type episodes with a couple of Hallmark moments thrown in. I expect more from these writers than a teenage fantasy with the premise of no matter how horrible they are, someone will see deeper into the troubled innocent girl underneath the tough exterior and love her anyway. That has no place in Supernatural, IMO.

Sadly, what this entire season has done is make me realize that I am still invested in the two Winchesters and how their story ends, so next year I will watch the premiere and the finale to see what their story is. I have no interest in the in-between: Cole becoming a hunter to 'protect his family,' Sheriff Donut and her quirky humor, Charlie and her amazing everything, or Jody and her wayward teenage girl hunters. That may very well be what they are looking at for their illusive spin-off, but it's not something I would even consider watching.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-05-01 21:02
I am 100% with you Ginger. In addition I thought the whole story was ridiculous. Immature whiny Claire turns into a seasoned hunter in one episode. This episode for me was like changing channels ..... we are watching SPN with Sam and Dean and then they take both main characters, change their perspective, forget there problems, abandon their personalities and their history and throw them into an ABC Family story. All we got was Sam and Dean are hunters and they are teaching teenage girl to be hunter in one evening. Now she can stab, shoot, steal, watch her mother die and handle supernatural weaponry all without blinking an eye.... and her parents are in happy heaven being SOOO proud. Where is the Real Sam and Dean and Castiel for that matter? MOC Dean supposedly at the end of the line here is playing putt putt golf, the warrior angel is limping around with a look of constipation, and free will Sam who wanted a different life and who saved the world is practically non existent. The three of them could not take down one angel.... after all the super feats they have done? For what.... so Claire could make the kill. I am vastly disappointed. I hope the writers retrieve the real Sam and Dean from this alternative crap parallel universe.
Cal
# Cal 2015-05-01 12:32
I think I would have gone with Grand Canyon sized continuity error;) From "Appointment at Samarra", DEAN: "Well, is there any way that you could, uh, I don't know, hack the hell part off?" DEATH: "Dean, Dean, Dean. What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken. Not even by me".
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 12:41
Wow, that never occurred to me. Impressive insight!
Cal
# Cal 2015-05-01 12:52
Thank you. But I don't know if it's insight so much as me pitching a bitch fit when they contradict canon!:D
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-01 13:14
Well evidently it can be filleted to the raw nerve or skinned alive and drive the person with the mutilated soul to death. So I guess the Grigori could damage it enough to kill the host.
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-05-01 21:15
I am also wondering how she could have just laid there for two years getting her soul siphoned off and not have her body deteriorate from complete lack of nutrition. Also notice we did not get much of a look at the other victims.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-01 13:28
Thats what Ive been saying! You cant hack or slice a piece off. Short of that, were they having the Grigori treat her soul like a Giant Slurpee? It was stupid. The concept per Death doesnt work. Since this was introduced so late in the season and now that there is not only a Grigori sword but also the possibility that other Gregori may have survived... is this going to factor into the finale or next season. Good Heavens, doesnt anyone get lore or stories right anymore? The Knights of Hell were wiped out...ooops no they werent... The MOL were destroyed... ooops, nope, lookie here - theres one that survived Abaddons attack who has the MOL bunker keys! And heres another guy hiding out who wouldnt you know has a twin half in Oz!!! Hey but dont worry the Grigori no longer exist, they went rogue and were taken out. Every last one... Ooops not so fast!!! Heres one hiding as a miracle worker and oh yeah, he claims there are more of them where he came from... Sorrrrry, our bad! *Embarrassed face* Gah!

Heres something else. The Grigori said hes been going by Holloway for the past 50 years. Means hes using a vessel. Prior to that he was Jenkins and prior to that, Miller. The 50 year line made me think about the MOL as that timeline fits. Remember the Grigori were here to help while the rogues preyed upon humans. I looked up the 2 MOL introduced in the episode Slumber Party and ones of the guys name was Jenkins. Now Jenkins ended up dying at the hands of the other guy. The Wicked Witch possessed Jenkins (God, I hated that episode) which forced the other MOL to kill him in self defense. So if its coincidence then its nothing but if it isnt I wonder if they will somehow tie the Grigori into the MOL. I dunno.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 14:04
Sorry AlyCat, I must have missed your post where you said the same thing as Cal. While I was watching the episode it struck me as "off" that the Grigori could have been "milking" Amelia's soul for years, but I didn't recall what death had said about how the soul cannot be broken into parts. Clearly, the writers didn't recall/weren't aware of this either. Isn't there some production company employee whose job it is to keep canon in mind? I feel like I read some reference to such a person in one of the season companion guides. I can only conclude that 1. she was fired because she totally sucked at her job and they haven't gotten around to replacing her, or 2. she's really good at her job but the writers keep saying "canon shmanon" to her. Also, I too despised Slumber Party. Honest to God, that episode was when I first started worrying about the direction SPN was headed in.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-01 14:11
Slumber Party was where my dislike for Charlie took a serious nosedive. I just prayed the flying monkeys would get her and we would never have to deal with her again.
Cal
# Cal 2015-05-01 14:24
Do you mean you've been saying it or you said it here? I read through the comments first and didn't see anything about it, sorry if I stole your thunder :)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-01 14:02
I viewed that as siphoning off energy from the human soul, similar to the way Castiel tapped in to Bobby's soul to bring Sam and Dean back in Frontierland. Buy hey, canon has never stopped The Carver from doing whatever he wants; new showrunner, new rules :D
Cal
# Cal 2015-05-01 14:35
So you're saying they screwed canon a few episodes later!:) Cas said that the human soul consisted of pure energy (and that touching it was like putting his hand in a nuclear reactor), I know he said he needed to siphon off a little of that but at the time because it was so close to death's statement, I assumed he meant convert a little of it without taking it away from Bobby (he asked only to touch). I don't think that translates to the Grigori being able to eat the soul piecemeal though, especially without consequence. Okay, we don't need to be spoon fed info but either they were ignoring canon, should have written in a little more exposition or possibly they will 'splainy later in the season?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 14:41
good luck with that :)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-01 18:42
I agree that it wasn't well explained but it's not outside the realm of possibility, even given lore for the Kripke (the more logical years). A couple of Supernatural creatures have been able to feed off of human souls; Crocottas and Shtrigas. And I thought Death said that souls are powerful and that he can't break them; they can be damaged but never destroyed? He never really said anything about tapping in to/feeding off them. These Grigori / watcher angels are also a different type of angel than we've seen before, different than archangels and angels,and since other Supernatural creatures can feed off of a human soul, I don't find it implausible in the world of Supernatural for a type of angel to be able to do the same. Just my opinion...

And besides, didn't we have demons harvesting human souls from live people last season? Now that I gave a giant WTF?
Russ
# Russ 2015-05-05 01:58
Quote:
Okay, we don't need to be spoon fed info but either they were ignoring canon, should have written in a little more exposition or possibly they will 'splainy later in the season?
That's something that cheesed me off about the episode. The 3-on-1 fight scene (which actually became 4-on-1 when Claire ganked him), could have been better spent as a conversation between the Grigori and Cas. Cas thought they were extinct, so I'm sure he would have had a few questions, and maybe we could have gotten a few interesting answers. But no, all we get is kapow, bing, bam, because, you know, "they all fight" is easier to write.

The writers/show-ru nners disinterest in lore has been a huge issue for me in the last few years.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-01 12:47
What's the deal with the kinder, gentler Alice ;););) It was an okay episode; I gave it a C. And that's the problem with this season; there have been a handful of outstanding episodes surrounded by a whole lot of mediocre or just plain bad episodes. Fingers crossed they can finish up strong this season because, according to The Carver, they are "accordioning-o ut" his 3 year arc to cover 4 seasons so I'm not sure if this bodes well for S11. With the Stynes and the Book of the Damned, they have introduced some interesting possibilities; hoping they can follow thru on them.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-01 12:53
The Stynes are the most promising. Just please don't turn them into cartoon villians. Jacob was perfect...
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-01 13:45
So of course they had to kill him.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-05-01 13:57
I think there are more Stynes lurking about :):):)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-01 13:59
TPTB: 'Okay now, heres Jacob, hes testing well...fandom doesnt seem to have an interest one way or another in him... yes, yes, thats it... Oh, this is very promising. Hmmm... what? Whats that? You say that he is starting to trend? That there is a modicum of interest within fandom over the possibilites of this character? No, no, no, no, no! Squash it! Squash it right now!!! That in unacceptable! We here at TPTB must make sure that designated "!FAN FAVORITES!" stay that way. We cant have the viewing public think for themselves!!! Get Robbie in here immediately! And Singers wife. And for Heavens sake can someone please ferret out her writing partner? Ive never seen the man, uh, woman, uh..."
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 14:07
Jacob really had potential to be an awesome big bad. Maybe he has a twin brother who is identical to Jacob in every way, except his name is Jakob! Am I a genius or what?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-01 14:14
Ssssshhhhhhhhhh h! Talk (or type) quietly... you cant let TPTB know what might interest us. ;)
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 14:15
He would need an 'eviler twin' pointy beard, and a handlebar moustache...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 14:49
Nothing says "big bad" like a handlebar moustache! Imagine how much more menacing Yellow Eyes or Lucifer would have been with one of them- they could have been twirling the ends while taunting the brothers.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 16:31
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 16:37
I SEE THIS PIC. omg.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 16:44
Well, see, I am an expert and mos t excellent poster of pics ... and also modest.

(possibly the others that you don't get to see might be gifs and that might be causing the problem? Dunno.)
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 18:13
You are correct. I see videos and pics.
thx.
eilf
# eilf 2015-05-01 18:17


Can you see this one?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 18:42
No dear. Must be a gif.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-01 22:50
But I can see it! Thanks eilf.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-01 18:07
What did Sam say about death? Maybe Jacob lives....
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-05-01 21:08
We can only hope.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 14:20
My take on that is .....da ta da da .....they will MUTILATE and DRAG 3 seasons of good writing into 4......wt actual f
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 14:20
My take on that is .....da ta da da .....they will MUTILATE and DRAG 3 seasons of good writing into 4......wt actual f
spnlit
# spnlit 2015-05-01 21:11
I cannot imagine going through another season of MOC Dean.... Just contrast the Dean we saw after he killed Cain and the Dean playing golf. Kripke had it right. Tell a great intense story and wrap it up.
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-02 17:51
Duplicate entry - site was running slow, sorry about this
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-02 17:55
Duplicate entry - site was running very slow, sorry
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-02 17:55
NJSPNFAN - You just confirmed my worst fear. That fear is that Jeremy Carver is going to continue as show runner for Season 11. I was sincerely hoping that Ben Edlund would replace him or perhaps Kripke might even take a more active role next season. Rumor is that Robert Singer is leaving after this season and I think that's great as long as he takes his terrible writer/wife Eugenie with him. SPN is clearly falling apart. I agree with your comments that there have been a few outstanding episodes surrounded by complete garbage to tolerable filler. This is the first season where I have disliked more episodes than I liked. It's been a very hard season to watch and if you are correct that Carver's arc is going to be extended from 3 to 4 years I don't see how SPN will even be watchable. I am so upset with this season that I would take Sera Gamble back in a heartbeat. Carver and 3/4 of the writer's room need to find the exit permanently.
E
# E 2015-05-03 06:20
Carver can go... and so can Bob Singer who hopefully will take his wife with him. Following them out the door can be Adam Glass, Jenny Klein, Brad Bruckner, Nicole Snyder, and Eric Carmelo. They can keep Bob Berens and Andrew Dabb who has upped his game significantly lately, and upon reflection they can keep Robbie Thompson as long as the new show runner keeps his rampant self insertion and fantasy fulfillment under control. Id' kill to have Ben Edlund back, although as a show runner I am not sure how he'd do.... have you seen interviews with the guy? He doesn't really look like the organized or meticulous type. Season 11 would be "experimental" that's for sure with BE at the helm.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-03 12:13
FREE you mind.:)
E
# E 2015-05-03 12:36
I'm in charge... can't you tell? Ha! :D:D:D:D:D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-03 13:07
The funny thing about Singer is that he used to do a great job. He was heavily involved in plotting out the seasons and the episodes in earlier years, so he had to have been doing a good job. I know I've read some quotes by Kripke giving Singer credit for ensuring that the brothers' story got just as much thought as the MOTW story. So what happened to him? Burnout?
E
# E 2015-05-03 17:53
Probably. My sense is that basically the tenor around the head office is "meh, we'll figure it out." Then someone comes up with a suggestions and the response is "That sounds good, lets go with that." And no one checks to see if it fits, if it's canon, if it makes sense, is consistent, relevant, accurate, realistic or even interesting. That's how Dean champions working together with his brother in Werther and disses his family in Angel Heart.. the very next episode. Meh...
Russ
# Russ 2015-05-05 02:15
That's probably not far from the truth.

I was listening to an interview with Kim Rhodes (Jody Mills), from last year, and she said that her appearance in the Annie, Alexis, Texas, Nexus episode (or whatever it was called) happened really quick. They thought of something, wrote it, gave her a call and said "hey, are you available these dates" ... and that was it. They hadn't even planned anything out earlier in the season for her character. It just happens on the fly. There's never any talk earlier in the year about what's in store for Sheriff Mills, and every episode she gets called back for, she just assumes that's the one they'll kill her off in.

I'm pretty sure they just map out the broad strokes for Sam & Dean ... and everything else just happens as it comes.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-05 04:09
My Spnfamily not yelling at you. Can't use the exclamation point
AND THAT'S MY WHOLE PROBLEM WITH THIS SHOW NOW. ''ON THE FLY'' writing.
No planning. They map it out better on ''reality shows'' I'm sure.
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-05 08:02
NOLANOLA - I am as shocked as you that this is how the eps are written. I would assume (I am a scientist) that there would be a master stroyboard and the arc would be incorporated and they would follow the time tested formula of 1-2 arc eps, then 1-2 MOW eps, etc until Season finale. This style of "on the fly" is nothing short of apathy, laziness and lack of a strong show leader. I think I could at least organize a season, draft out eps, provide flow, integrate the arc, stay true to the characters yet continue to develop them in a fluid manner and I took a few lit classes in college. If the folks working on SPN loved their job (and I bet they did during the Kripke years) they wouldn't work this way. They should be embarrassed.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-05 08:11
Can I help you map out the season, story arcs and episodes? :):)
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-06 12:17
YES, all are welcome - i bet we could come up with a full season that flows has purpose develops characters interjects humor stays true to canon ties the arc seamlessly into the MOW episodes and is balanced and has a clear direction so the veiwer feels they have started a journey and have some idea of where they are headed but a few surprises would be nice - Carver's throw it and see what sticks is a joke - i wouldn't even take that approach with dirt - stupid
E
# E 2015-05-05 08:48
I am pretty sure using a story board was the way Kripke worked. He had the broad strokes for the first three seasons pretty well planned out in advance and each season was mapped so that relevant arc details could be placed into MoW episodes. He was detail oriented to the nth degree. That's why the early seasons moved so well, why bits of dialog could be added into a later if there was a short fall or a confusion was caused in an earlier one, why each character seemed to be relevant to the story, why the sub characters worked etc.... I cannot believe that Carver would admit in an interview that he has no plan! He literally said they'd "throw things at the wall to see what stuck!" And clearly, given the disorganization we've seen since he took over that this is absolutely the truth. This is just mind boggling to me that he would admit to basically not doing his job. I think the entirety of Carver's "three year plan" amounted to "Lets turn Dean into a demon" and that's about it. How much money is he getting paid? Geez.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-05 09:03
YOU THINK YOU COULD......
I KNOW WE COULD...
I went to College for Theatre and Drama and even sang a little Opera.
A 3rd grader could set up an outline better than THROWING SHIT AGAINST A WALL A SEEING WHAT STICKS.
Alice mentioned a short time ago about an abbreviated schedule but after reading this, THEY JUST WANT TO GET PAID.
Cant blame capitalism I suppose but I KNOW I COULD GET PAID AND STILL CARE about my ''ART'' / career/job.
E
# E 2015-05-05 17:48
NOLANOLA... I studied theatre and music and I sing opera as well!!! Hah. Small world. I still sing as much as I can. I sure as shit aint getting paid like Carver and co, and somehow I STILL care about a job I've been doing for 20 years. I teach voice and every student and their progress is of the utmost importance to me. I never do it to "get paid." Why can't these guys do the same?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-05 18:26
Good for you, my pipes are gone.
Harry Connick Jr was a freshmen
when I was a senior at NOCCA.
:):):)
E
# E 2015-05-05 18:40
COOL! :D:D
Alice
# Alice 2015-05-05 12:48
Kripke was also a notorious control freak. I guess in retrospect, a lot of the writers hated that, but dammit it did produce a quality story, didn't it? It also drastically burned him out by year five and he stepped away for a year or two before going onto the next project. Carver is the total opposite. He guides, but he doesn't control. The pacing of the season is controlled by Robert Singer though, who is a traditional TV guy and not the fan boy Kripke was. I think Singer and Kripke together balanced each other out. Separately, they both have serious flaws. I also think it is time for Singer to retire. I don't think he has the passion for this anymore. I certainly wouldn't. The TV business is a rough one.
E
# E 2015-05-05 17:51
Arturo Toscanini was a control freak also, but the NBC Radio Orchestra was THE BEST in the world. I think you're right though; there was something about the Kripke/Singer pairing that made the show work. Carver/Singer does not have that balance. Also, I secretly think that the shows secret weapon, it's gold (aside from the J's that is) was Kim Manners. The show never really recovered from his passing.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-05 19:40
Quote:
Carver/Singer does not have that balance.


I have to say, though, that Season 8 worked for me. I had some issues with the first half, but I really liked the second half. Even though the season had more duds than seasons 1-7, it also had some great episodes, and a fairly cohesive, well-executed story arc. It even featured some Sam POV. (although not as much as in previous seasons) So I was really excited heading into season 9, and I'm just flabbergasted by what's happened since the beginning of that season. What changed? The quality has plummeted, but if TPTB haven't changed, and the writers haven't changed, what the hell happened? I feel like something must be going on behind the scenes that we don't know about and which would account for what has happened to SPN. Are Carver and Singer distracted by other projects? Is this the only job Singer has? Inquiring minds REALLY, REALLY want to know.
E
# E 2015-05-05 21:15
I liked the back half of season 8 more than anything else I've seen in the Carver administration, but I am afraid that's not saying much. I disliked all the dropped story lines for Sam in that season; Sam's supposed 'cleansing' from the trials and his plea to Cas to help him extract the leftover grace inside of him so that he could "do one right thing" all lead to nowhere and didn't amount to anything. So I was a little resentful of the "Sam insight" they fed to us (too little too late as the saying goes) as what they showed us was pretty much for naught. Has the angel grace left over in Sam or his newly "cleaned" blood (we still don't even know if that was true) figured into any of the plot points since? Thats a big fat NO. And in retrospect I ended up resenting the whole trials story line because in light of the angel possession and the subsequent MoC disaster, I realized that the trails were never even about Sam to begin with. He was doing them yes, but was it because of something they were trying to accomplish with Sam? Did we learn about Sam? No. Not even remotely. The trials were about Dean. We got almost no insight into Sam, but we sure learned a lot about Dean. His guilt was amped up to about a million. The trials storyline was laying the ground work for the possession which in turn was the basis for the absolute glacially plotted and uninteresting MoC which has now gone on for 35 episodes. Once I realized that the trials plot wasn't about Sam at all but was merely set up for Dean I could no longer find any interest in it, could no longer enjoy it. For me it basically means that no one has much considered Sam as a character in his own right since Carver took over. He turned Sam into the ultimate plot point by ignoring him as a living breathing person and simply using him to drive Dean. What he wants, who he is, what happens to him doesn't matter. All that matters is how Dean reacts to it. So season 8 was pretty much a miss for me, and the start of the travesty we have now.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-06 14:56
And I'll bet every single musician in that orchestra was also the best in the world or they wouldn't have been there. You see what I mean? Kripke was a control freak and maybe Carver isn't it's hard to say I don't know how he interacts with his writers. But it wouldn't make any difference if he was standing right over them. If they don't have the talent they aren't going to be master musicians. Eric Kripke struck lightening when he ran this show. He had two extremely talented young actors (without families) who had amazing chemistry and were willing to kill themselves with a schedule that only young people can keep up with. He had David Nutter to help launch the series (and who brought Jensen in), Kim Manners who gave the show it's dark gritty feel, Robert Singer who kept the show on track and a group of very talented writers and producers many of whom have gone on to much greater things. Jeremy Carver inherited a failing show that was in it's last years and tried his best to turn it around and other than S8 without the benefit of Jared and Jensen carrying the show. Not to mention the group of writers he had to work with weren't anywhere in the same league as what Kripke had. I'm not apologizing for Carver but I don't think he is the one entirely to blame here either. When I heard that Carver was coming I had hoped he was going to write more episodes. I don't know if that would have helped (specially last season) but it couldn't have hurt.
The show is still very successful. It is still adored by seemingly millions of fans around the world. He must have done something right.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-06 16:01
Great points!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-05-06 22:28
STOP THE PRESSES! I agree with almost everything you say, with a caveat, of course.:) I, too, wish Carver had written many more episodes because I've loved all but one of his eps. It certainly would have improved the quality of the individual episodes. And I agree the writing talent isn't nearly what it was in earlier seasons. But I also think Carver/Singer just don't have the vision of Kripke/Singer in crafting season or years long arcs. I really did like the second half of season 8 and I thought it opened up multiple really exciting arcs and stories to explore. But instead they put all of their eggs in the MOC basket, and then executed that arc in the dullest, most slow-moving way possible. And that has to be laid squarely at their feet, not the writers. But there probably would have been fewer horrible episodes had Carver written more of them.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-06 22:55
I actually blame that ill conceived back door pilot for S9 going off the rails. I think so much of the seasons focus and resources went to that disaster and the season suffered for it. But that is just my opinion.
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-06 12:25
Kripke and I have the control thing in common - like OCD control over things that I'm responsible for and represent my work. SPN was Kripke's creation and his control (overcontrol, micromanagement , I don't know the situation or how to best describe it) to me demonstrates that he had passion and he was going to put out the best program he could and if people didn't like working with him like that then I guess they could move along. I agree with the comment someone made about Kim Manners. His death was such a loss to SPN. He was an AMAZING talent and his eps and his influence on the show are probably underappreciate d by the general fandom. Singer and Kripke did work well together but Singer needs to pack it up and take Eugenie away from SPN. He is not innovative, seems apathetic and just because he has been with the show since the beginning should be an accolade but I think we need fresh, inspired blood. Carver and Singer don't work together - obviously. In my profession if a project were managed the way that SPN is currently managing it's show - people would be fired and this would not be tolerated. It almost feels like old timers collecting a check and just waiting for the lights to go out and in the interim just do enough to get by - that's not OKAY, ever
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-05 08:04
Thank you for this behind the scenes insight - it explains a lot!
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-04 06:15
E - I agree with all of your recommendations . Do you think any of them will actually happen? Singer's departure has been rumored for a long time so I'm really hopeful he is gone. I know he did a good job upfront but seems like to many people on SPN are riding on their laurels and collecting pay cheecks when they need to move along.
Alice
# Alice 2015-05-05 12:43
Honestly, I was feeling good will after that atrocious and infuriating Arrow episode aired before it. I was just so happy this episode didn't piss me off I gave it a break. And honestly, it did wrap up a storyline well that should have never, ever, been pursued.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-05-05 12:58
I'll say it should never have been pursued by these writers. I think there was a kernel of an intriguing idea in the story. If they had been willing to portray the angels being kicked out of heaven as a disaster for humanity and had a Hannah like exploration of why avoiding the earth for 2000 years was a good plan, because angels did more harm than good when on earth. Then the Claire, Amelia, Jimmy story could have had a big part in telling that story. It got co-opted by the desire for bad*** hunter to be Claire and the need to make Cas taking Jimmy's life away to be a GOOD thing that Claire should be grateful for. There is an emotionally resonant story about the fallout of the angels deciding that they wanted to bring about the Apocalypse NOW and the earthly ramifications of an angelic invasion. Instead it became season 9 and 10 and it didn't work.
Russ
# Russ 2015-05-06 03:05
I agree. The story had potential (like almost everything this show comes up with. I did say almost). In the right hands with the right direction, it could have bee fantastic. Unfortunately, well ... we all saw how it played out.

Had something like this been given more thought pre-production, and one writer been given the task to do all three Claire episodes, it may have been stronger (or worse depending on which writer got the job).

We got Dabb for "The Things we Left Behind", the Nep Duo for "The Hunter Games", and Thompson for "Angel Heart".
AçyCat22
# AçyCat22 2015-05-05 17:21
And there are fans that want Show to free Lucifer from the cage... Hahahahahhhaaaa ha! Better stable of writers, stronger showrunner, maybe. The way it is right now they would give that episode to the Nep Duo.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-06 07:01
I just want ADAM out the damn cage.
Is that to much to ask.....
YES IT IS.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-05-06 16:06
Hahahahahahaaaa ahahaaaa ha. Poor Adam. I still say let him loose from the cage and let him be the Big Bad for Season 11!!!!! Raawrrrrr!!! The tagline for the season could be "Hes Free, Hes Back and Hes Pissed!!!!"
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-06 17:58
:D:D:D;)
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-05-01 16:38
I have a question on the Discussion page. fyi
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-05-01 18:09
I looked up Grigori on Wikipedia and Supernatural season 10 ep 20 was referenced. Otherwise yuck kind of creepy angels.
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-02 18:44
My worst fear for SPN is that Jeremy Carver is going to continue as show runner for Season 11. I was sincerely hoping that Ben Edlund would replace him or perhaps Kripke might even take a more active role next season. Rumor is that Robert Singer is leaving after this season and I think that's great as long as he takes the terrible writer Eugenie with him. SPN is clearly falling apart. There have been a few outstanding episodes in Season 10, which could have been one of the best seasons of the series, surrounded by complete garbage to tolerable filler. This is the first season where I have disliked more episodes than I liked. It's been a very hard season to watch and if Carver's arc is going to be extended from 3 to 4 years (Season 10 into Season11) I don't see how SPN will even be watchable. It took from Season 8 until late in Season 10 to resolve Cass' grace - why so long? I am so upset with this season that I would take Sera Gamble back in a heartbeat. Carver and 3/4 of the writer's room need to find the exit permanently. My favorite show of ALL time is now a show I may or may not watch when it airs, maybe on DVR, maybe on HULU, maybe a couple weeks after the episode airs. I used to plan my days and weeks around watching this show. It doesn't seem like the writers or hate me for saying this that J2 care that much anymore. When a show is about 2 brothers - those characters need to work full time on the show and stay concious for more of an episode than they are unconcious. Never thought I would see this amazing show go so far off the rails. Why was Crowley even brought on full time? He has been utterly underutiliized and when he is given screen time it's like a character that doesn't resemble the Crowley we all used to love to hate.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-05-02 19:20
Edlund is working on Gotham, which has been renewed. I have not seen Kripke indicate any interest in coming back to Supernatural. He told the story he wanted and I think he has moved on. I suspect that Carver will remain as show runner. Certainly by this time we knew Sera Gamble was moving on and I think Kripke had stated by this time that he was leaving as well. Interesting if Singer is actually leaving, since I think he has been behind many of the decisions that I'm not happy with, but until that is confirmed I'm going with the staff staying the same.
SPNForever
# SPNForever 2015-05-03 05:40
Hi percysowner - Thanks for your reply. I was very interested in your comment that Robert Singer may be behind many of the decisions you are unhappy about. If that is the case and he really does leave maybe things will get better. Robert Berens and Robbie Thompson have written consistently this year. Adam Glass used to be one of my favorites but this year not so much, but he has definitely delivered in the past. Nicole and Eric and Eugenia and Brad are the ones who need to leave the writing room, IMO.
E
# E 2015-05-03 17:54
AG has never been one of my favorites and this year he clearly has put his own agenda above the quality and consistency of the show. He can go anytime.
Russ
# Russ 2015-05-05 02:30
Adam's writing is all over the place, and his comic work is a perfect indication on that. The guy's consistently inconsistent. His last effort was a 20-issue run on DC' Suicide Squad before he was replaced, and it would go from 3-4 issues if a good steady pace and story-telling, into a few issues of nonsense and repetitiveness. He's not that creative and often falls headfirst into ill-placed tropes and cliches (deliberately or not?, I don't know).
Alice
# Alice 2015-05-05 12:42
That is the most perfect description of Adam's writing I've ever seen. All over the place. It's true in all his TV work as well.