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Don’t you just love it when an episode focuses on both brothers and has a plot that equally exposes what’s going on inside those heads of theirs?  Even better, that both brothers are written in character?  Remember when that used to be a regular thing?  My inner fan girl is flailing in happiness.  See, that isn’t so hard, is it?  

Bravo, bravo to writer Robert Berens, who chalked up another winner this time with “The Werther Project.”  I’ve really grown to love Berens’ style, which is focused on telling a fluid story while respecting the parameters of the “Supernatural” universe.  Throw in some great dialogue that gives richness to the characters and this is the kind of episode I wish we had every week.  Entertaining, suspenseful, unpredictable, balanced, and for once I don’t feel like I’m at the firing range taking potshots at all the holes littering the plot.  It allows me to focus on what’s important, which is these characters that we love so much.  

The best part of all was the stunning character study that came from this.  Despite working together, the brothers spent a lot of time apart as well, both literately exorcising those inner demons.  For such a simple and common theme, this layered episode certainly didn’t play out this way.  I kept thinking of Castiel’s words from “In The Beginning.”  All roads lead to the same destination.  Despite all the twists, the brothers didn’t get out without each other, exactly the way the universe wants it.  


For any of us that had doubts that Sam is feeling guilty about what he’s been doing, his little adventure in the house put that to rest.  I love that his inner guilt was boldly expressed by the hallucination of the latest innocent victim.  Applied with a sledgehammer expressed.  Sam’s subconscious is not subtle.  

Suzie:  I survived 40 years in this house.  Locked down and one visit from a putz like you…

Sam:  I’m sorry, I’m so sorry.”

Suzie:  Lot of good sorry does.  Look at me…LOOK AT ME (points to her corpse).  There she is, the first casualty of your misguided mission.  But what’s another human life to you?  Anything’s worth it as long as you two make it out alive.  And how’s that search going?  Any closer to a cure?

Sam:  This isn’t real.  You’re not real. 

Suzie:  You think Dean’s the wild card, the loose cannon.  But don’t you see, making deals with witches, opening pandora’s box down there, you’re the reckless one.  You’ll do anything to cling to that doomed brother of yours.  How many more will die Sammy?  You know it, you have to be stopped.  And the only one that can stop you is you.

Now, granted the hallucination was an enchanted spirit designed to use words to get Sammy to blow his brains out, but that last sentence certainly packs a punch, doesn’t it?  “The only one that can stop you is you.”  Yet Sam carried on.  He nearly died bleeding himself dry just so he could get those codes to Rowena to save Dean.  I do accept though that by the time he was near death, he was probably so far out of his mind he didn’t realize that he was about to die, but the foreshadowing is obvious.  As long as Sam tries to go it alone, he’s sealing his doom.

I do wonder if Sam’s desperation led to carelessness in this situation.  He knew from the tape that a violent enhancement would be released, but he opened the box anyway when time ran out.  Did he think the spell would work, or did he not finish it?  Either way, he did cause Suzie’s death because of it.  That’s another death in attempt to save Dean, the first being Lester early in the season.  Given the fact that Sam almost died himself, it means that he is unable to draw that line and will do anything.  Yet turns out, Suzie was wrong.  There is one other person that can stop him.  


To satisfy the Mark, Dean is going back to his days in Purgatory.  He’s taking on whole vamp nests by himself and feeling good doing it.  It’s primal, it feels right, and he can get away with it.  So no wonder when he was affected by the enchantment he went back to that primal place with his old pal Benny.  (Kudos to Berens for finding a perfectly plausible way to bring Ty Olsson back).  It appeases the killer within.  

Dean is hiding his own shocking secret though.  Okay, it really isn’t that shocking.  But one has to wonder, why did Dean bring this up with himself?  

Benny:  So can’t leave, don’t want to stay, bit of a bind, ain’t it?  Good thing there’s always a third way out.  You can’t say you haven’t been thinking about it.

Dean:  That ain’t gonna happen, ever.

Benny:  Come on Dean, I know you can see it, the purity, the honor.

Dean:  There’s no honor in that.

Benny:  You just want to wait for the mark to reclaim you?  Go out swinging, die top side, then what?  Maybe kill a few humans, kill Cas, kill your brother, yeah, that’s mighty honorable.

Dean:  Shut up.

Benny:  Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot…about your plan.  You’re going to get Sam and Cas to put you down? You really think they’re going to keep that agreement?  Come on.  Dean, let’s say they do.  Do you think they will ever recover from that?  It will…ruin…them.  This little backup plan of yours I know you’ve been thinking about it for a time.  I know it’s been gnawing at you.  You can’t leave that job to them.

I highly suspect that Dean knows what Sam is up to.  I don’t think he’s in the dark as much as we think.  Sure, he may not know that Sam is consorting with Rowena, but he knows his brother isn’t giving up the search for the cure.  Knowing what Sammy is doing to save him, as he’s done with Sam in the past, he also realizes that taking on the burden of having to kill his brother is a fate worse than death.  It would destroy him.  His fallback that he keeps going until Sam and Castiel end him is loaded with flaws and he knows it.  Now that this thought has surfaced though, will he start working on another plan B?  


Dean’s current MOC predicament had one plus though, it likely got him out of hot water with the Werther box enchantment.  He walked through the whole thing with his hallucination and realized death for him would lead to something much worse.  That meant Sam would have to face the unspeakable.  The one thing he could never do himself.  That’s probably why Sinclair’s box only had a 98 percent lethality rate.  There’s always that special case.  He was able to deliver the message to Sam that his brother needed to hear…

Sam and Dean

“The universe is started to tell us something we both should already know.  We’re stronger together than apart.”

I think the outcome was pretty freaking obvious, but sometimes obvious is needed to get the point across or better yet remind fans what show we are watching.  The box required a lot of blood from a member from the Men of Letters.  Enough to bleed him dry.  In order to conquer the beast, there needed to be two.  Interesting how the MOL ancestors never figured that out.  No, it took two extraordinary brothers.  

That doesn’t mean they won’t fight and disagree though.  Brothers fight.  Brothers don’t always see eye to eye.  We saw an interesting role switch, a parallel to when Sam was infected with demon blood.  At least Dean didn’t use the word “freak.”

Dean:  Especially with you looking at me like that all the time. 

Sam:  Like what?

Dean:  Like that.  Like I’m some sort of a diseased killer puppy.  

Both brothers aren’t necessarily in hero mode anymore.  It is pure survival mode, and the events of both season 9 and 10 have reinforced that.  Sure, each has a conscience and wants to help others, but they’ll never put others ahead of each other.  Despite all the secrets and deception, it’s all so they can be out there together.  Without one, the other will fall hard.  It’s taken them a long time to get to this point, despite all their sacrifices for each other through the years.  Now they know for sure one cannot survive without the other.   

That explains why Sam carried on with his deception at the end, despite the taunting of his inner monologue.  His brother must live.  The stakes are so high, time has become crucial as well.  I was a little stunned to see Sam chain up Rowena, refusing to let her go until she does what she promised.  Oh, I cheered too (she did have it coming), but this type of treachery is not Sam’s style.  It again shows how desperate he is.  I still think this is all going to backfire on him somehow, but I like that Sam is still maintaining a level of control.  This can’t go well though as long as Dean is in the dark.  

What I’m most curious about is what is Dean going to do about his hidden secret?  How does he plan on freeing Sam and Castiel from this burden, or will he?  Will he just keep taking out vamps and other monsters to satisfy the Mark?  I suspect this little adventure is going to prompt some sort of action instead of the denial he’s been in so far.  If it doesn’t, I’ll be highly disappointed.

Most importantly, when will Sam and Dean share with each other their burdens?  Both work on a solution together?  Yeah, it’s probably going to escalate until something goes very wrong and feelings are hurt.  That’s their MO.  After all, there are definite flaws in the brotherly relationship.  These brothers are human too.  But they’ve always realized at the crucial moments that without each other they are nothing (think “Sacrifice”).  Dean probably remembers getting himself killed when he went to face Metatron alone in “Do You Believe in Miracles.”  Will they see the light in time this season?  I’m dying to find out.   

Other Thoughts

Google maps alert:  It is a 5 1/2 hour drive from Tulsa, OK to Lebanon, KS.  You’re welcome.  

Did anyone else notice Sam had one of those pine tree air fresheners in his car?  I still say that Sam needs to get his own car and give the Impala a sibling.  Come on, even Castiel has the Lincoln.  

Why was imagined Rowena about 1000 times better than the real one? She was far less annoying, that’s for sure.  I figured something was up when she showed up with the blue eye shadow and royal blue dress.  Isn’t an exaggeration of colors always a clue?  Well, it should be.  Plus, she used Harry Potter-ish type magic.  Only a non-witch would imagine that!  

“Tall, white fella…pretty hair.”  Yep, that’s our Sammy.  When a bitter old recluse notices, then you know Sam’s hair is legendary!  


This is the second year in a row Robert Berens has bled Sam nearly dry.  So is that his fallback?  Can this be a yearly thing, please?  Woozy and pale Sam is kind of sexy.  

Who else was freaking out over that scene in the kitchen between Dean and Suzie?  It was tense!  Ten seasons and this show can still do this to us once in a while.  Great job.  

Overall grade, an A.  The writing was just so superb.  I’m wallowing a bit over having three great ones in a row after getting spitting mad over the horrible “Paint It Black.”  Thank you show.  There are four episodes left.  Don’t screw it up guys.  


# Deborah 2015-04-23 23:54
Great review, Alice. I loved this episode also, for all the reasons you mention. Now boys, take a hint from the universe and start working together and being completely honest with each other. Hey, a girl can dream, right?

Thanks, Alice! Here's hoping for 4 great ones in a row (then 5, 6, and 7!).
# AlyCat22 2015-04-24 01:08
Alice - good read! Thanks for the Google maps info. When I initially watched it I was wondering myself but forgot to look it up. Great episode!!! All hail, Robert Berens!!! What concerns me is what are Deans words to Sam foreshadowing? - "What are you doing, huh? You don't have a plan. You don't have a defense." This is all so not going to end up well. Sam better have a seriously viable Plan B where Rowena is concerned. I was hoping that Cas and Charlie would help Sam come to his senses but it looks like they have both become willing riders of the Carousel of Stupid since Charlie is going to help Rowena while Cas referees...
# E 2015-04-24 07:55
I am not eager to see Charlie again that's for sure, but it occurs to me that if Charlie is helping Rowena then that means Sam told SOMEONE what he's doing and that maybe we'll get more insight into his head space. It's not with Dean but he's at least sharing the burden. And Charlie must agree on some level or she wouldn't be helping.
# novi 2015-04-24 04:19
That was a good one:)
But isn't it just sad to see how Dean's dreamland has changed with time - from Mom's lawn to the happy place when one could kill at one's heart's consent. And the transition was played by Jensen so seamlessly, it's amazing. The same man, only older. But the actor himself is older now, so...
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-24 05:03
Can this be a yearly thing, please? Woozy and pale Sam is kind of sexy.
Agreed x)
# cheryl42 2015-04-24 20:27
It's funny but the next morning after this episode TNT played the 4A's and the blood drained woozy Sam.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 21:18
Why is a woozy Sam so sexy? What does it say about those of us who feel that way? In general I don't find wooziness to be a desirable quality in a man. But a woozy Sam is a different story!:D
# Shante 2015-04-24 07:54
hi Alice, i agree with you :)
# njspnfan 2015-04-24 08:10
Sam, what are you doing? How awesome is Sam’s desire and determination to save Dean?

We got some honest self-reflection by both brothers this episode They're both thinking about, and coming to terms with, the ramifications of the decisions they are making and the lies they are telling. The show's narrative has gone out of its way to make a big point about how honest and upfront Dean is being with Sam, but we did see that Dean is starting to acknowledge, at least to himself, how bad it is with the MoC. He's having to go on reckless solo hunts to sate the MoC, and he's still withholding how bad it really is from Sam, putting on a brave front. He is also withholding that little tidbit that Cain mentioned, you know, the one one where Dean ends up killing Sam. Dean can't fathom that ever happening and is lying to himself about that.

Sam is single minded and reckless in his quest to save Dean. Suzie died as a result of Sam's actions this week but at least Sam is starting to acknowledge and question the collateral damage of what he is doing. Personally, I have no problem with Sam agreeing to kill Crowley, long overdue if you ask me. But, even though he's being cautious with Rowena, it's all going to blow up in his face; Rowena now has access to some very powerful dark magic and no good will come of this. My guess is that Sam is going to end up coming clean with Dean before the end of the season.

What do you think Rowena’s end goal is? Does she really want Crowley killed?

Rowena is a power hungry witch and I do think she wants Crowley dead

What do you think Dean is going to do when he discovers the book is alive and well and in Rowena’s hands?

As Dean told Roy and Walt before they shot him and Sam in S5, "I'm gonna be pissed".

Do you think the codex will decode the book? Or is this a red herring?

Yes, I think it will decode the book but the collateral damage is going to bring down a whole world of hurt on everybody.

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!

A provocative, well written episode that tackled a very difficult topic. I haven't had time to rewatch it yet, but plan to do so this weekend.
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-24 09:47
# Daisymae 2015-04-24 10:27
We may not always approve of every episode through the year, but TPTB always seem to knock it out-of-the-park at the end of the season. This is season TEN and the fact that they can still do this is amazing! Other shows are just a remnant of their former selves at this point and rest on the greatness that was-not Supernatural.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-24 10:36
I want Sam to kill Crowley. Not only would it make for an epic fight (be better if he used his powers..) but I feel its time he went. For example if Bobby didn't die I don't think he would of been appreciated as much. You can't keep the same characters all the time because we need change to keep the show refreshing. So that's how I feel about Crowley. Its been fun, he's had some good episodes but I feel he's becoming boring or should I say stale.

Back to this Sam vs Crowley fight. Imagine Crowley standing over a defeated Sam with the demon knife held above Sam's head. The latter knows if he dies here he can't save Dean. He becomes so desperate and panicked he unleashes his power of telekinesis to spin Crowley's knife hand around and forces him to stab himself. Surprise haunts Crowley's face as he falls leaving only as his last shudder of life leaves him.
# eilf 2015-04-24 20:39
I could deal with that storyline :D Sarah would be avenged! And Meg ...
# LEAH 2015-04-24 20:50
Kevin's girlfriend
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 21:20
Jenny Klein
# AHall 2015-04-24 12:16
Spot on review. Great clarification and tie back to previous stories. Thanks. Also, Dean had to know it was a hallucination, Benny was dressed in a nice outfit. And good shoes. Check photo. ho ;)
# Jan 2015-04-24 12:49
Loved the episode and always love the writers who bring us such great drama every week. But I am a bit confused by this story arc. It seems a bit too Hollywood Hectic to me. After all, Sam and Dean have a solution that they know works ... reverse aging. It's a spell and Sam can do a spell, or at least research it. How does it work? What wd he need to make that bag? Can he set it so Dean only goes back 2 yrs or 5 yrs, instead all the way back to 14? That's what I'd be looking into if I was Sam. It at least seems simpler; they know it works; no Pandora's Box of possible evil and apocalyptic dark consequences. On the other hand, with the box, they don't know what traps Magnus may have designed or what horrible consequences they may face if they use it. Is it just me, or is this a no-brainer? Reverse aging first. If it fails, the box as a last-resort, devil-take-the- Hindmost Hail Mary play?
# cheryl42 2015-04-24 20:40
What a great episode! I was riveted the entire 2 times I've watched it so far. I thought it was interesting that Dean kept walking around in circles in Purgatory. Looking for a way out of his hallucination, looking for a solution to his problem or looking for someone to help him? And of course Dean is right. The universe is right. The brothers are stronger when they are together, when they work together. Together they keep each other human. Something Dean should have realized when he walked away from Sam on the bridge into Crowleys plan. And now Sam walking away and into the hands of evil is going to bite him in the end. I keep thinking about what Crowley said though, he has the Winchesters right where he wants them. Does Crowley have a plan for Sam or is he still setting his sights on Dean? So much to ponder....
I'm dying to find out... How much fun is it to say that again!
# Jen 2015-04-26 03:05
As always Alice a excellent reveiw and this time I saw everything you saw in this episode. I was getting annoyed ?!! LOL reading some of the comments - Screaming at my computer trying to tell everyone that it was all a illusion - Sam is just sooooooooooo brilliant He is a MOL, a hunter, and he knows spells (so a little witchy) He does really know what his doing It took queit awhile to learn all he needed to know with Ruby, now he is learning witchcraft, Can you imagine how pwerful Sam could be. Put all these elements together and wow just WOW. Poor Dean sooooooooo lost, so scared, how are we to help him, he is definatly changing with the mark. I think Our Dean is dying & a evil Dean is emerging. Jensen did sorta hint that way - the vessel would survive maybe not the person or essence of Dean
Can't wait till ep 21 Dark Dynasty - when Charlie & Castiel help Rowenna decipher the book. Episode 20 will be good I'm sure but Dark Dynasty will answer LOTS of questions I reckon and maybe this will be the episode when Dean finds everything out- after all Castiel is not good at secrets. Everybody Love ya comments we are all getting excited, nervous, maybe time for a vallium LOL xxoo
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-26 17:27
Thank you for spoiling episode 21. I don't know how much you spoilt but thankfully I only caught the jist of what happens. Next time please put in a spoiler warning if you must mention something.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-26 18:56
Uhm, is an episode synopsis considered a spoiler because I'm pretty sure that's where she got her information from. Anything else is just Jens speculation. I'm sure she didn't do it on purpose. It would be nice if you could but you can't really rely on people putting spoiler alerts on everything. What you view as a spoiler, others may not. You kinda read at your own risk... just saying.
# E 2015-04-26 19:09
Below is the official released promo for episode 21 Dark Dynasty. As you can see Jen did not reveal anything that was not published officially by the show. The rest of her comment is, as AlyCat says, speculation. I don't think she spoiled anything.

THE WINCHESTERS MEET THE STYNES — Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padalecki) investigate a bizarre murder and realize the killer bears the same tattoo as those from the Styne family. Eldon Styne (guest star David Hoflin) attacks Dean and a brutal fight ensues. Meanwhile, Castiel (Misha Collins) acts as referee when Charlie (guest star Felicia Day) and Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell) are forced to work together on the Book of the Damned. Crowley (Mark Sheppard) discovers his mother is missing and knows she’s up to something so he turns to an old enemy for help. Robert Singer directed this episode written by Eugenie Ross-Leming & Brad Buckner (#1021)
# AlyCat22 2015-04-26 19:21
Thank you E.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-26 19:35
Published by the show or not I don't want to know what the episode after is about. If you classify the preview of the next ep for the Spoiler section then shouldn't the synopsis of the episode after be too?
# E 2015-04-26 20:22
I just mean that the synopsis has been published here on this site as well as many other sites, is well known information and has been discussed in multiple locations and on multiple threads. The definition of spoiler is a bit of information that is NOT officially published by the show or common knowledge that is then picked up by fans from sources that leak unofficial information. This is not a spoiler.
# LEAH 2015-04-26 20:56
Sorry YellowEyedSam. I agree with the others, this stuff is out there and people are discussing it. If you are adamant about avoiding ANY mention or speculation about future episodes you may want to refrain from reading the comments. This is just official information given out about the future episodes. It all really ramps up especially as we near the end of the season.
# Jen 2015-04-26 20:30
SORRY EVERYONE - I DIDN'T THINK OF THIS AS A SPOILER. I will be more carefull in the future I'm still learning all this and don't mean to upset people.
When I type away I just get soooooooooo excited and write whats in my head. THANK YOU E for sorting this out with Yellow Eyes. And Yellow Eyes my appologies xo
# LEAH 2015-04-26 20:48
Jen you didn't do anything wrong. Don't worry about it. Once the promo's and snynopses are out there it is pretty hard to avoid seeing people talking about them or speculating about them. If a person wants to avoid ALL mention of any future episodes this is probably not the place to come. That is a huge part of what we do here. I would suggest that if someone does come here and not want to see any mention of future episodes, they should probably avoid the comments. Even some of the articles invite speculation so it's just hard to 100% avoid this stuff.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-27 03:53
Hard is an understatement when even on other boards the most innocuous thread will sometimes veer off into speculation/spo iler territory. I understand wanting to stay spoiler free, I tried to do it in the past but I never relied on someone to throw up the "Spoiler Alert" warning and always took my stance to be my own responsibility. Watching what I read and so forth. As was said even articles can do a bit of spoiling what's to come. It's impossible to expect otherwise unless you just don't read threads, blogs, articles... unfortunately, there really is no spoiler free zone as much as some would like there to be. Nature of the fandom beast and all that...
# AlyCat22 2015-04-27 03:57
Leah - I should have prefaced my last response to your comment to Jen as, I agree! On reread, my post sounded a little harsh tho that wasn't my intent... :) Sorry if there was any misunderstandin g there!
# LEAH 2015-04-27 12:24
No misunderstandin g at all Alycat!:)
# Alice 2015-04-27 00:41
It's been quite a long time since I've posted our policies on spoilers. I used to in the comments have a way to hide spoilers in spoiler tags, but that functionality broke a while ago and I've never made it a priority to fix it. So my apologies. Other than that, the policy hasn't been clearly stated at all!

We do love to speculate in these threads. Light speculation is definitely okay. Heck, I do it in the reviews! But I know there are people are trying to avoid episode descriptions so to not be spoiled. Keep that in mind when posting in the review threads. It's perfectly okay to reveal all that and do full speculation in the spoiler article threads (which many of you do!). So, while it's not wrong to post future episode descriptions right now since I offer no way to hide them, keep in mind it's a consideration thing for those not wishing to be spoiled.

I'm stunned this issue hasn't come up in a while. So bear with me until I get spoiler tags working and I'll make the policy clear.

Thanks much.
# LEAH 2015-04-27 12:42
That would be appreciated. It's always gets tricky. What one person considers a spoiler another doesn't. I personally have never considered a promo or synopsis a spoiler but I know some do. Speculating? Is that spoilery? It is rampant right before the finale. I personally think talking about the episode before the west coast has seen it IS very spoilery but I also know to avoid places where I might see anything that would spoil the episode for me. I have only seen a spoiler tag here a few times in the years I have been coming here.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-27 19:56
Good point Leah. And why did you avoid places where you might see something you didnt want to? Personal responsibilty. Thats the only way to insure you wont accidently expose yourself and even that is far from certain because most people dont use the Spoiler Alert tag. Jumping on someone because they inadvertantly "spoiled" something for someone else as that poster did unfairly making that person feel bad was so not a cool way to handle it. Some places say you cant discuss an episode for 24 or 48 hours after on the air but that doesnt include synopsis or whatever TPTB put out as far as promos or sneak peeks. Im not sure I even agree with this restriction tho I understand it. To me its simple, and this is from someone who avoided spoilers as much as possible in the past, it falls on you. Dont want to be spoiled? Read carefully. Dont expect others to have to watch out for you. I didnt and I never would.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-27 07:24
Wow, I'm glad this came up because I didn't know there WAS a spoiler policy. After YellowEyedSam's post I checked and the pages with episode synopses and previews are classified as spoiler pages. I never noticed that and now I'm thinking I've done quite a bit of "spoiling" myself. So a general apology if I've done so--I'll certainly try to avoid it in the future.
# E 2015-04-27 08:23
OK.... can anyone explain to me WHY the MoC wants Dean alive? Dean even said those exact words in this most recent episode "this thing on my arm wants me alive," and I can't for the life of me figure out when that was established or why? The MoC has shown to be protective of Dean for the entirety of this season. It has saved his life three times now that I can think of; from the suicide spell in this episode, from Rowena in Inside Man and from all those lowlifes in The Things We Left Behind. But in season 9 the Mark seemed to be pushing Dean towards death so that it could claim him as a full fledged demon. Why is it different this year? If the mark wanted Dean alive in season 9 then why didn't it protect him from Metatron? And if the Mark is NOW for inexplicable reasons protecting Dean from death and demon hood, then why does anyone want to save him from it? Why is it a bad thing if it makes him super strong, and a super hunter and nearly impossible to kill? I am so confused by the whole thing.
# debbab 2015-04-27 11:18
It wants him to kill. This is the curse of Cain= to wander the Earth and slay humanity.
# E 2015-04-27 14:21
That still doesn't answer the question. Isn't an alive dean with his morals basically intact going to fight the marks effects more than a demon Dean who will give in totally and kill without remorse? So why is the mark keeping him alive?
# njspnfan 2015-04-27 18:50
Cain told him he could pass the MoC on to someone worthy, a killer like himself. Since Dean was considered "worthy", maybe the MoC wants to keep him alive? I don't buy that but that's the best I could come up with because the entire MoC canon has been all over the place. Last year, after Dean killed Abaddon, he started yakking his guts up; Crowley told him the Mark needs to be fed; the more he killed, the better he'd feel; the less Dean killed, the less better he would feel. Now, this year, Dean kills off Cain with the First Blade and there are minimal ill effects, other than the one nightmare. And, like you said, there's also a moral component to Dean's killing - he took out a nest of vamps. But, then again, Demon Dean also showed a morality in his killing, other than with Sam of course. I think a big part of that is keeping Dean the character redeemable but this could also be "instinct"; Dean has done this most of his life. So, either Dean is getting used to carrying the MoC, he isn't really entirely human, or it's just plain laziness and a lack of risk taking by the show.
# E 2015-04-27 19:35
But Cain was a full fledged demon when he gave the mark to Dean, so I don't think that Dean has to be "alive" to pass it on; Cain wasn't. The MoC has become so convoluted that I can't take it seriously any more and as a vehicle to showcase Jensen's talents it's been an utter failure.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-27 20:06
When Dean died, he transformed to DemonDean so earlier yakking guts out doesnt apply as before due to his change. Then came Sams "cure" - now either DemonDean is still present and hanging back waiting to fully emerge and take control or he is some kind of hybrid, but I dont think he was cured completely, if at all. So I dont think he is bound to what happened last year.
# E 2015-04-28 08:37
But that still doesn't explain why the mark seems to be helping Dean to stay alive and avoid demon dean status this year when it was pushing Dean toward being a demon last year. There is zero reason for the mark to be protecting Dean from giving in to it's affects fully. You'd think the mark and blade would WANT Dean to release the demon inside of himself and be pushing him to die so that it can like it did with Cain. The fact that it's protecting Dean from dying now is completely unexplained and a reversal of what was happening last year.
# cheryl42 2015-04-27 19:43
The MOC probably needs to keep Dean alive until he can be reunited with the Blade and kill Crowley, Castiel and Sam and then (presumably as Cain did) kill himself. As Cain said it would be the act that would drive Dean insane and I would guess beyond redemption. I guess (just a guess) that the MOC needs to corrupt the human soul and as with Cain (which is still my theory) killing his innocent brother would be the act that the human soul could not recover from.
# E 2015-04-28 08:41
THANK YOU!! This is only explanation that I've seen that is even plausible. Still though, that hasn't been explained on the show AT ALL. I just would like some parameters for what is happening with Dean right now that made some sense. And I'd REALLY like to feel that Dean was in some kind of danger.... which I don't... at least not imminently. Dean seems to be managing quite well. Just have him find some vamps nests periodically... he can't die, so no mess no foul. He can go on indefinitely like he is. In season 3 TPTB did a MUCH better job of giving Dean a valid reason to try and keep Sam from saving him and also created a scenario where you knew that he was in terrible and immediate danger. This time? Not so much.
# E 2015-04-29 00:20
You know what though... Dean WAS reunited with the blade when he killed Cain and it seemed to have zero effect on him after that. So what is the blade or the mark or Dean waiting for? They were all reunited nice a tidy a few episodes ago...why do they need to be reunited again? Why didn't it work the first time?
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 01:25
Right and he killed Cain. If he hadn't killed Cain Dean would have gotten sicker until he did kill something. Dean was strong enough to give the Blade to Cas at the time. But the more he uses it like last season the more he needs it. Cain was able to discard the Blade as well. Dean doesn't want to become a demon or a Knight or whatever the end game is for the Blade. So he is able to resist it for now but he is slowly losing ground. Killing vampires and other monsters and the support from Sam is helping him but he is losing ground. We don't know what the end game is for the Blade other than to corrupt the human soul by killing an innocent loved one. Which is this case is Sam.
# E 2015-04-29 07:21
Ok... that doesn't work for me. Dean only gets sicker when he uses the blade but doesn't end up killing what he was attempting to kill? First of all, that almost never happens...the miss with Gadreel was a bit of a fluke, and secondly, a plot point that arbitrary and convoluted is nearly impossible to make clear, which they haven't. And we've been waiting for Dean to go off the rails for ever.... we waited from episode 9x11 until 9x23 and after a short 3 episode break where Dean actually WAS a demon we've been waiting from 10x3 until now. That's a whole lot of "build up" (or a whole lot of nothing) to basically get us back to where we were at this same time last year. It's not working for me AT ALL. It's boring, is a retread, it's unclear and it's not been exciting. Furthermore it has essentially excluded Sam until recently, and now his inclusion feels forced and unsupported. A glance from Dean or a few dead vampires is not enough to convince me he's in any real danger. Sam and Cas are giving lip service, but it's not really on our screens. This is only my opinion of course.
# E 2015-04-29 08:50
DEAN-What the hell's happening to me, you son of a bitch?
CROWLEY-Liquor before beer, bad taco? How should I know?
DEAN-I can't turn it off! Ever since I killed Abaddon, it's -- it's like this whole...other thing. I get this high and I-I-I need to kill. I mean, I really, really need to kill. And if I don't --
CROWLEY-you yak your guts out. It's the mark.
CROWLEY-It wants you to kill. The more you kill, the better you feel. The less you kill, the less better you feel.
DEAN-How much less better?
CROWLEY-One would imagine the least-best better.
DEAN-So dead? Well, Cain had the mark. He didn't die.
CROWLEY-Cain was a demon. Your body's not strong enough to contain the blade's power.
OK. I've been looking into this a bit more. There's nothing in the dialog where Crowley indicated that if Dean doesn't kill that he'll die as being a result of the Blade. Clearly he indicates that it's a result of having the mark. There's not indication that the kills need to be done with the blade, or that not killing with the blade will make him sick, just an indication that the Mark is making Dean want to kill. Well... Dean still has the mark and he's still killing and he's not getting sick... so what's different this year? As I said before, there is no rhyme or reason to this.
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 10:23
The least best better would be dead. And so far this year Dean has only been reunited with the Blade once and that is when he killed Cain. He has only once not completed the kill (Gadreel) and that made him sick to the point of "the least-best-bett er". The killing isn't making Dean sick it's the not completing a kill once he starts it. What is a little murky to me was that when Dean was a "demon" it sounded like he could make the choice of becoming a demon or not. Maybe killing Lester's innocent wife was going to set Dean down the path beyond redemption. I do think Crowley still has a plan for all of this so probably more information will be coming.
# njspnfan 2015-04-29 11:34
Agreed - what a complete mess they made of this; on one hand, they were implying that Dean had a choice to make between being a demon and human. But, on the other hand, Dean also referred to himself as a Knight of Hell; Knights of Hell are demons. And, if Dean was truly a Knight of Hell, Castiel would not have been able to overpower him in the bunker just before he was about to bash Sam's brains in with a hammer. Add to that the "morality" of Demon Dean's kills and it turns in to an unexplainable mess. As far as him wanting to kill Sam, he had wanted to do that when Sam tracked him down in the bar. This kind of went against the moral Demon Dean - only thing that made sense to me was that the MoC was compelling/driv ing Dean to commit fratricide and there wasn't any (or enough) human left in Demon Dean to fight that. And almost-cured Demon Dean being able to escape the devil's trap made no sense either.

Then again, they could just be making this up as they go along :):)
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 12:59
Well if you follow SPN logic I would suppose that almost cured Dean wasn't strong enough to overpower Cas in the Bunker. I don't know that Dean was being moral when he killed Lester rather than his wife since Dean was about to kill her. I think Lester just said the wrong thing to Dean. I do think that killing a human with the Blade made Dean more powerful than Crowley. I do follow that almost cured Demon Dean escaping the Devils Trap as he was human enough to cross the lines. And I just assumed it was the Mark that wanted Sam dead specially after Sam gave the Blade to Crowley and tortured him for hours. Like I said I didn't get why Crowley gave Dean a choice between becoming a demon or human. Like maybe Crowley knew of a way to reverse what had been done?
# AlyCat22 2015-04-29 13:23
Lester made the mistake of thinking he could control DemonDean, just the same as Crowley. DemonDean isnt into being controlled by anybody. ;)
# spnlit 2015-04-29 13:23
I agree it is difficult. I am trying to make sense of it. Was Dean a Demon or not? Crowley told Dean that if he Dean did not satisfy the mark with kills, Dean would turn into a demon. This is at episode one when we thought he WAS a demon. So Dean was demonic but not a full fledged Demon. But Crowley also said Dean had to pick a side had a choice and thus could make a choice: Demon or human. So if Dean could make choices..... he chose to be more demonic, let himself go... did not care anymore. During the whole cure process based on the dialogue the demonic was in control of Dean.
SAM: What the hell are we doing to him, Cas? I mean, even after I gave him all that blood, he still said he didn’t want to be cured, that he didn’t want to be human.
CASTIEL: Well… I see his point. You know, only humans can feel real joy, but … also such profound pain. This is easier.
[Dean wakes up, and his eyes are black. The black dissipates, and Sam unscrews the flask in his hand. Dean looks up to Sam and Cas, groaning and letting out a breath. He looks around, uncertain, while Sam and Cas watch him carefully.] Dean was too demonic to control the drive to commit fratricide.... and just human enough pumped up with human blood to slip out of the devil's trap.
# spnlit 2015-04-29 13:25
I agree it is difficult. I am trying to make sense of it. Was Dean a Demon or not? Crowley told Dean that if he Dean did not satisfy the mark with kills, Dean would turn into a demon. This is at episode one when we thought he WAS a demon. So Dean was demonic but not a full fledged Demon. But Crowley also said Dean had to pick a side had a choice and thus could make a choice: Demon or human. So if Dean could make choices..... he chose to be more demonic, let himself go... did not care anymore. During the whole cure process based on the dialogue the demonic was in control of Dean.
SAM: What the hell are we doing to him, Cas? I mean, even after I gave him all that blood, he still said he didn’t want to be cured, that he didn’t want to be human.
CASTIEL: Well… I see his point. You know, only humans can feel real joy, but … also such profound pain. This is easier.
[Dean wakes up, and his eyes are black. The black dissipates, and Sam unscrews the flask in his hand. Dean looks up to Sam and Cas, groaning and letting out a breath. He looks around, uncertain, while Sam and Cas watch him carefully.] Dean was too demonic to control the drive to commit fratricide.... and just human enough pumped up with human blood to slip out of the devil's trap.
# E 2015-04-29 20:28
Actually, Dean got sick after Abbadon a kill he completed..that 's when the conversation I quoted above took place. Clearly Dean was already feeling sick at that point. So again, zero consistency. And as Crowley stated its the mark that was making Dean sick, not the blade. So using the blade or not using the blade, per the show's own dialog shouldn't matter.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-27 17:47
E, I feel so bad for you. You keep asking this question and IMO nobody has come up with an explanation that makes much sense. But how about this answer: while you would think that logically the MOC would want a Dean who kills anything that moves, which Dean does that describe better? MOC human Dean or MOC demon Dean? Because in my opinion Demon Dean was not exactly a killing machine. The only "good" person he actually killed/tried to kill was Sam. ( And according to TPTB Sam was the bigger monster than Dean) MOC human Dean has been a lot more deadly. OK, that was not really a serious explanation. But I agree with you that they need to clarify the whole MOC thing. For an arc that has gone on for soooooo long, it's still very muddled.
# E 2015-04-27 19:46
I know; I keep asking and NOBODY can tell me because it's so F-'d up. In season 9, the mark drove Dean to use the blade and the blade made out like it was going to kill Dean if he didn't use it enough. Then it didn't protect him from Metatron killing him so he ended up a demon. I know that Demon Dean was the cuddliest, snuggliest nicest demon ever, but at least he was in total sync with the mark.... it wasn't making him sick any more etc. Then he gets "cured by Sam and is supposedly a human again. You'd think that the rules would be the same... that the mark would once again draw Dean to succumbing totally (which in season 9 meant he was dead and rose as a demon). But not so. All of a sudden the Mark wants Dean alive, is protecting him, even saving his life in dangerous situations? Why? Killing with the blade does not have the same effect on him as it did in season 9. WHY? WTH is going on? None of this makes any sense at all. If the mark wants Dean alive then there is nothing for Dean to be fighting against, nothing to be in danger from because as long as he's human the mark can't take control. Apparently the mark isn't interested in releasing the demon in Dean this year. Its all just so convoluted, confusing and quite frankly, dumb.

I am worried now that not only will whatever Sam is doing come back to bite him in the butt by making everything worse for everyone else and it will all be stupid Sam's fault, but that the big finale this year will be a tired retread of last year. I swear... if this years' big moment is Dean becoming a demon AGAIN I'ma gonna be PO'd. What a lame way to repeat a plot that didn't work the first time and set up a retread of season 10 AGAIN too. Now Sam will REAALLLLY have to save Dean this time... !!! Ah... no. Just no.
# njspnfan 2015-04-27 19:52
I'll tell you the same thing that Jeremy Carver says at the start of every writer's meeting "Now don't start in with that logic shit again" :D:D:D
# E 2015-04-27 19:56
Hah! That sounds about right :P
# eilf 2015-04-27 20:28
So here's what I think. The reason we can't work out what is going on with the MOC is because they haven't decided what the purpose/point/r ules/logic/endg ame of it will be. It is like quantum physics, right (metaphysics)? (I am about to prove I don't at all understand QP). So the storyline of the MOC is, until it is observed, potentially either a wave or a particle, and until it is observed it is impossible to know which it is. 'Observing' in this case meaning until one of the writers writes down an answer as to how they say it works, making it canon. Once it is observed it will be either a 'wave' - as in 'hand-wave away all the parts of the storyline that don't fit with this conclusion we just invented' or a particle - as in 'this story doesn't make a particle of sense'. See? It's simple!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-27 21:21
Holy s**t! Absolutely brilliant! Brava!
# E 2015-04-28 08:45
You're a lot smarter than the writers eilf!
# eilf 2015-04-28 11:48
Thanks ladies :P very kind. I have a soft spot for bad puns, and those ones were just too hard to resist...
(though I really do believe it will be hard for them to come up with logic for the MOC storyline that will encompass all the hints and behaviours they have given us so far ... and I don't think they will even try TBH)
# njspnfan 2015-04-29 17:39
Or, maybe like the Schrödinger's cat paradox; Dean is simultaneously a demon and not a demon. :D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 17:48
I love the analogy but I have to ask: are you and eilf both scientists? Or just fans of The Big Bang? (that's where I learned about Schrodinger's cat!)
# njspnfan 2015-04-29 18:48
no, been working in IT my entire career; just geeky when it comes to science.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-29 08:23
WHAT writers meeting?!? Hahahahahahaaa! !!!!!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-27 21:25
if this years' big moment is Dean becoming a demon AGAIN I'ma gonna be PO'd. What a lame way to repeat a plot that didn't work the first time and set up a retread of season 10 AGAIN too. Now Sam will REAALLLLY have to save Dean this time... !!! Ah... no. Just no.
That is my biggest fear as well, especially since Carver has stated/threaten ed that the MOC plot will carry into next year.
# cheryl42 2015-04-27 21:25
Dean doesn't have the Blade. Metatron was powered by the Angel tablet, supposedly that was far more powerful than the MOC with the Blade. Demon Dean had the Blade and was completing his kills. It's using the Blade and not completing his kills is what makes Dean sick. Killing with the Blade made him self righteous in S9 and as long as he completed the kills he didn't get sick. He doesn't have the Blade now and as in S9 before he got the Blade from Magnus it was just making him feel "wrong". If Dean gets his hands on the Blade again then he will go down the same path that he went last year. Lucifer gave the Mark and the Blade to Cain and coerced him into killing his brother. That corrupted Cain to the point of madness. When he took his life he became a demon. But even Cain after presumably centuries of murder was able to overcome the affects after he threw the Blade away. Cain was never cured of being a demon so when he started killing again (and with nobody like Collette/Sam to anchor him) he was overcome and went truly off the deepend. Without the Blade Dean is able to maintain. But I am sure when he is reunited with it then he will start down a path he won't be able to come back from. As I said above it was my theory that the MOC wants to keep the vessel alive until it can accomplish it's mission where, after reuniting with the Blade it will corrupt the soul of the bearer to kill the three prophesized by Cain and then raise a demon army to march against mankind. Dean didn't do that with Crowley because Crowley was trying to keep him under control. It was only after he killed Lester (a human) that Dean became too powerful for Crowley to handle. And when Dean killed the humans in the house he didn't have the Blade either.
And if we are allowed to speculate I don't think Dean will become a demon but whatever it is that Sam is going to do with the BOTD is going to unleash some holy terror on earth that will be the next big bad for next season.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-27 21:40
Cheryl, if your theory is correct then it indicates that Dean shouldn't really be getting worse (since he doesn't have the blade) so there is no urgency about finding a cure. And that is certainly how it appears in these episodes. But that contradicts Sam's belief that Dean IS getting worse, and that little flash of black eyes in Inside Man. A lot of theories sound reasonable (like yours) but none of them is completely consistent with what's happened in all of the episodes, because the episodes are all over the place on this. I can't wait to see if they provide an explanation that ties up in a nice bow all of the things that have happened with the MOC. But I'm not holding my breath.
# cheryl42 2015-04-27 22:04
But the Mark still has an agenda and that is to be reunited with the Blade. It will continue to try and get the bearer to bend to it's will (the whole One Ring thing, the more Frodo used the ring the more under it's spell he became). And Dean isn't getting sicker worse, he is just finding it harder to fight the influence of the Mark which is pure evil. As long as he can kill to release the pressure he is maintaining but slowly like last season he is losing himself. If he and the Blade are in contact with each other for too long he will succumb to it as he did in S9. I find the story of the Mark to be very consistent throughout the last 2 seasons. But that is just me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-28 07:39
I guess I just don't see his behavior these last bunch of episodes as consistent either with the earlier part of the season or with last season after he first got the blade. Earlier this season it was morose Dean grimly trying to fight the effects of the MOC; now it's jolly Dean taking the edge off by slaughtering vamps and taunting college kids. I do agree with AlyCat that there is something more going on with Dean which hopefully they will reveal; otherwise I think it's confusing (i.e. poor) story telling. I'm glad it all hangs together for you, and if the last few episodes prove you right I will happily eat crow, with a side of "how did I not see this?"
# cheryl42 2015-04-28 11:07
With Sam's help Dean has learned how to deal with the MOC. As Cain evidently did for over a hundred years. It does track for me. I think that Dean is trying to be as honest about what is going on with him as he can and that is helping too. Last season he didn't really start having problems until he held the Blade then it was all he could think about. This year he knows what he is dealing with and yes he is over compensating at times but he is learning to maintain. But he is also starting to lose it a little hence the urgency from Sam to find a cure.
# E 2015-04-29 20:47
But if Sam has helped Dean learn how to deal with the mark then what's the rush? As you said, Cain went for hundreds of years this way. Dean can too. Again, zero urgency. Sam can spend the rest of his life looking for the best cure and only move when he finds the one that will do the least damage. No reason to work with Rowena, no reason to take such risks.
# E 2015-04-28 08:56
As long as he can kill to release the pressure he is maintaining but slowly like last season he is losing himself. If he and the Blade are in contact with each other for too long he will succumb to it as he did in S9.
So basically season 10 is a "do over" of what seemingly didn't work in season 9. How utterly boring. I don't want to watch this same story again. It' didn't work in season 9, it's not working in season 10 and now we are looking to it going into season 11. If TPTB actually have this seasons finale be a retread of season 9 with the bent of "we really mean it with Demon Dean this time!" then I am done. I am very concerned that they heard the complaints from fans about the lack of anything significant with Demon Dean only lasting 3 episodes and are planning to bring him back again. Because retreating a failed plot line is such a great plan. NOT. They ruined Demon Dean. Let him go. It's beyond time to let this whole mess go.
# percysowner 2015-04-28 09:25
I'm bracing myself for a "surprise" where Sam tries to remove the Mark and instead transfers it to himself. The writers then remember that Demon!Dean was a bust so Sam runs off and kills puppies and kittens, hunts down Claire, Charlie, Amelia (Charlie's mom), Amelia (his ex), Cole's wife and kid and kills them and starts slaughtering other innocents. Mean while, Cas tells Dean that it isn't Dean's fault, he just trusted that Sam isn't a good and pure as Dean was and that Dean was just so brave and wonderful to be able to resist the call of the Mark, where poor, weak evil Sam never should have tried.

It really can get worse than Demon!Dean 2.0.
# cheryl42 2015-04-28 10:58
I agree it didn't work very well in S9 but at least for me it is working better this season. But I really don't think that Dean is going to turn back into a demon for the finale. That would be boring. I think whatever Sam is doing is going to unleash something pretty awful and that is what they are going to be dealing with next season. Or I could be completely wrong.
# E 2015-04-29 00:22
But the Mark still has an agenda and that is to be reunited with the Blade.
But it WAS reunited with the blade, when Dean killed Cain. What is it waiting for?
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 01:30
I imagine it's is waiting for Dean to become weak enough to complete the three kills prophesized by Cain. Crowley, Castiel and then Sam. Then the Mark and the Blade will have accomplished it's goal to corrupt Dean's human soul beyond redemption. Dean was still strong enough to let go of the Blade. I imagine the more he uses it like last year the harder it will be to let go of.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-29 04:10
Thats easy, silly. The season finale! ;)
# E 2015-04-29 07:24
You know, the way this story line has been going, that's as good a reason as any they've given us.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-29 08:26
As I said up thread... 'Writers meeting? WHAT writers meeting!?! Hahahahahahaa!! !!!'
# AlyCat22 2015-04-27 22:39
It wont surprise me if they revisit some scenes from this season which will clarify more of what has happened. Kinda like they did with the scene where Sam actually burned the BOTD... doesnt it sometimes feel like somethings off kilter or out of whack or missing? I dunno, I just cant shake that feeling. I also strongly believe that DemonDean is still around in some form... Thats my story abd Im stickin to it!!! ;)
# njspnfan 2015-04-28 12:50
so I guess your looking forward to the season ending episode that Carver is writing, to clear up all of the discrepancies and inaccuracies in S10 storytelling; better be a 2 hour episode. :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-28 16:09
OK, when you put it THAT way I feel like a misguided fool for even allowing it as a possibility. But the alternative (that they're making this crap up as they go) is kind of depressing because it does not bode well for Season 11. How can they care so little about having a coherent story line? Season 8 and even much of season 9 (however much I hated most of it) at least flowed somewhat consistently and logically until the end. This years ONLY story arc has fans all proposing different theories in order to reconcile the wildly inconsistent (IMO) portrayals of the effect of the MOC. Hey, maybe CHARLIE can figure this out. Ain't nothing that girl can't do!
# E 2015-04-28 08:50
Dean couldn't kill Metatron, but he could kill Cain. Cas couldn't kill Cain, but Cain could kill Cas. Ergo Cain could have also killed Metatron. Dean killed Cain but couldn't kill Metatron????? It does not compute... it does not compute......
# percysowner 2015-04-28 09:29
Dean couldn't kill Metatron when Metatron was powered by the Angel Tablet otherwise known as The Word of God (or at least A Word of God). Dean probably could have handled Metatron easily if the tablet had been broken earlier.
# cheryl42 2015-04-28 11:00
Cain was just a demon. And yes Cain could have also killed Metatron if he had the Blade and Metatron didn't have the angel tablet.
# debbab 2015-04-27 11:13
Great review for a great episode. Must mention the house itself as the set played such a crucial role in the inner workings of Suzi. She is both suffering and trying to prevent further suffering. Her house clutter reflects her disorganization of mind and yet her protectiveness with the use of Gus, her observation skills of Sam and her humor with Dean. How nicely Berens has Sam's state of mind come from her character's ghost! And the use of Benny to reflect Dean's. The flashbacks to the MOL meeting and then back to Sam was seamless. Even the improved bop on Dean's nose by Rowena brought me back to Sam's bop on Dean's nose way back when Sam was under the influence-when they first meet up with Martin in the show.
# eilf 2015-04-27 20:32
Even the improved bop on Dean's nose by Rowena brought me back to Sam's bop on Dean's nose way back when Sam was under the influence
Heh, Sam's subconscious wanting to screw with Dean a little ;) But you are right - technically that was Sam (under the influence) both times!

I truly hope the outtake of Jensen snapping at Ruth Connell's finger and scaring the life out of her is out there somewhere!
# spnlit 2015-04-28 23:12
I understand E's confusion. In summary: This is what we were told by the narrative: At first the MOC wanted Dean to kill and if he did not he would just get sicker and sicker and die. The MOC was killing Dean. Dean was a mortal human at this point. When Dean killed with the Blade that made him high/ stronger. The blade powered up Dean but he was not able to "CONTAIN" the power like Cain because unlike Cain he was only human. Maybe that is why Dean had to keep killing over and over again to satisfy the MOC. Dean was then killed by Metatron. Crowley had to place the blade in Dean's hand that SEEMED to have caused his resurrection as what appeared to be a black eyed demon. In Season 10 Episode 1, we were told that the MOC wants Dean to kill or it will turn him into a Demon.

CROWLEY: If it wasn't for me throwing demon chum your way, what do you think would've happened? The mark needs to be sated. Otherwise --
DEAN: otherwise, I turn into a demon. Yeah, yeah. I sort of got that six weeks ago.
CROWLEY: Just trying to help.

This was very confusing at the time because we thought he WAS a demon. But I think turned out it all just meant a few things.... 1) death is no longer a threat, Dean had become immortal. 2) MOC threatens the bearer with some dire consequence if it does not get sated with continued killing (when human it will kill you and when immortal it will permanently corrupt your soul to become a demon. 3) Dean was demonic but not a full fledged Demon. Dean with the MOC was able to make choices... remember Crowley wanted him to choose.... pick a side. Demon or human. Sam used the blood cure on Dean. The blood cure could cure a Demon. For Dean with the MOC the blood cure made the demonic part of Dean seem to go away. At the time we thought Dean was cured but as Cain later told us, it is only remission, not a cure. Dean was/is attempting to control the MOC killing to sate the MOC. But since the killing (except of Cain) is not with the blade the MOC is slowly turning Dean into a Demon. Dean is melding into a Demon hence the urgency. We see glimmers of the demon, the cruelty of Dean hustling the college boys, the demon eyes in the mirror, the southern drawl, the odd way Dean looks at Sam some times. Dean is struggling but losing his battle to the Mark. When Dean killed Cain with the blade he took a big step towards becoming a demon. Remember the look he gave Cas as he left the kitchen to go to bed. I think Cheryl42 is right: The Mark still has an agenda and that is to be reunited with the Blade so to kill in reverse... Crowley, Cas, Sam, then Dean will be irreparably corrupted and a Demon with no turning back. Dean is finding it harder to fight the influence of the Mark which is pure evil and slowly he is losing himself. In Season 9 Dean would have lost himself to death... MOC was killing his human body. Now the MOC is causing him to lose himself to a fate worst than death.... eternal damnation of being an immortal demon.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-29 04:31
Nice summary! Based on what we know its as good a guess as any. I still think theres something else there which we havent been made privy to. Like theres something behind the curtain (theres that Oz connection again), or just outside of our mental periphery. I just cant shake the idea that things arent completely as they seem. . I feel like Ava - okay, Im nuts... I still wonder what it is that was causing Dean to be in so much pain in that end scene in the Impala in Paint It Black. I say so much pain because ordinarily Dean would try to hide it from Sam. The fact that he didnt tells me he couldnt. But why then? In an episode that focused on horrible self inflicted embowelments? It would seem kindof stupid if it was back to 'the least best better' - you know?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 07:51
I salute your efforts to make sense of all of this, but your theory does require a few "maybes" and "it seemed" because the writers have not spelled any of this out. But to me this is the main flaw in your theory:

Dean was demonic but not a full fledged Demon. Dean with the MOC was able to make choices..
Why would a Dean who could still make choices, and who had already been partially cured by Sam, still want to bash Sam's head in with a hammer? That has troubled me all season long, especially because neither the brothers nor Cas seemed to think it was a big deal. You could say it's because the MOC is all about fratricide, but then Dean should have been going out of his way to kill Sam even before he was partially cured. Anyway, your theory does a good job pulling together a lot of what's happened, but I don't think it, or any other theory, explains everything that's happened. There are still inconsistencies . But excellent try!
# AlyCat22 2015-04-29 08:45
If Sam had left DemonDean alone he never would have heard from him. DemonDean was in his own little world. Not caring about anything but what he wanted. Drinking, screwing, karaoke, bar fighting, with a kill thrown in here or there. When Crowley tried to control him you saw how that worked out. Then Sam grabbed him, tied him down and forces a cure on him that was not just obviously extremely painful if not torturous but that he made repeatedly clear he did not want and that might just be killing him. Remember DemonDean told Sam to let him go his own way that he wouldnt bother him and Sams response was to drive those needles in with more and more force? So, my guess is that he (DemonDean) was pissed. Sortof a 'Screw with me, Im taking you out. I gave you fair warning both at the bar and the bunker.' He said he had just enough demon juice in him that the idea of killing Sam was fine with him.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 16:20
You're kind of making my point about how confusing this is. If Dean was a demon who also possessed the MOC AND the first blade he should have been feeling a strong urge to kill Sam, and not be content to just go off on his own, never to bother Sam again. That doesn't seem particularly demony, much less MOC/first blade level of demony. But suddenly, just because Sam pisses him off (and I agree that Sam did) he's demony enough even WITHOUT THE FIRST BLADE to want to smash Sam's head in even though he's human enough to get out of a devil's trap. Sorry, none of that computes to me. I really think the writers just haven't thought this through enough, nor do they care enough, to provide an explanation that explains everything Dean has done since taking on the MOC. Because the explanations everyone is proposing--some of which ALMOST explain everything--are so complicated and nuanced regarding how the MOC and the First Blade affect Dean together and separately, and what it means to be a demon, and why Dean didn't seem that demony, and why Cain seemed like a different beast than Dean, etc. etc.-- that there's no freaking way the writers have actually considered all of this and taken it into account in each episode. To think that they HAVE thought all this through implies a level of concern for canon and precedent and characterizatio n that has seemed to be sorely lacking in TPTB lately. Moreover, it would also mean that their story telling sucks because they are leaving it up to the viewers to decipher this convoluted scenario. But hey, I could be wrong, in which case I have no idea whose theory is right. SPNLIT's and Cheryl's theories are closest to making sense IMO--no offense to anyone else!
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 17:13
In a recent interview Jensen is teasing more to come on demon Dean. So maybe more explanation will be forth coming.
# njspnfan 2015-04-29 17:40
Spolier alert - Dean is a rogue reaper :o:o:o
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 20:07
Hmm.... a Knight of Hell demonic rogue reaper. Well that would be something new anyway...:D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 20:39
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 17:52
Did he mean more explanation about Demon Dean, or another appearance by Demon Dean? I'm going to be ticked if it's the latter--we need a new story arc! Not more of the same.
# njspnfan 2015-04-29 18:45
I know... it's already feeling like a repeat of a lot of aspects of S9. However, since Sam is probably going to break the world in his attempt to save Dean, if Dean does go dark (and I'm not saying he does), the blame will be placed on Sam. That's just the way the show works now.
# percysowner 2015-04-29 19:29
I think you are probably right and Sam will break the world trying to save Dean and the entire blame for the fallout will be on Sam. I just hope that if it does go down that Sam finally says "you had a complete hissy fit when I didn't try to break the world to get you back when I thought you were dead and had no idea you could be saved. Now you're having a hissy fit because I tried to save you from becoming something you told me you would rather die than become AND you couldn't die rather than become it. Make up your mind. Put it in writing and have it notarized because I am sick and tired of having to guess what the hell you want and then getting jumped on when I do what you have told me you want!" I know it will never happen, but that's what I want.
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 20:05
Well in the interest of spoilers I will only say that he did talk a lot about the demon Dean story line and where it looks like it is heading. The interview will probably be posted soon if not already on the home page.
# percysowner 2015-04-29 21:21
Where was this interview posted?
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 21:30 it wasn't a long interview just interesting
# percysowner 2015-04-29 21:56
Thanks, it should go up tomorrow.
# cheryl42 2015-04-30 00:05 here is another one with a little more detail
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 22:18
All I can say is holy crap. I'm not going to spoil anything by speculating specifically, but Jensen seems to be giving a pretty big hint about something that might happen next week--at least the way I'm interpreting his comment.
# E 2015-04-29 20:59
If Dean was a demon who also possessed the MOC AND the first blade he should have been feeling a strong urge to kill Sam, and not be content to just go off on his own, never to bother Sam again. That doesn't seem particularly demony, much less MOC/first blade level of demony.
You know, I had never even stopped to consider this. A newly minted Demon Dean, MoC burning on his arm and Blade in hand should have killed Sam then and there in fulfillment of what we've since been told is the blades' number one priority... fratricide. Instead, Dean not only DID NOT kill Sam, but left him that touch feely "Let me go, Sammy" note. Sound pretty human to me. It's kinda Sam and Demon Dean had more consideration for Sam than a nearly human and mostly cured Dean did.
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 21:40
He is doing Cains story in reverse. Cain became a demon after he killed Abel. Dean is going backwards. Why... because...yeah I got no answer. Wipes hands, my work is done....:)
# E 2015-04-29 22:05
I know.. it feels like stalling doesn't it. Dean is doing Cain's life in reverse..... uh... because that's the only way that the writers could justify Dean not killing Sam as soon as he got the blade in his hand. It's arbitrary for sure.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 22:11
Why... because...yeah I got no answer. Wipes hands, my work is done....:)
Cheryl, that really cracked me up but also made me feel bad. While I and E and several others have been trying to punch holes in your theory you've valiantly met every objection with a counter y to finally fold like a cheap tent. Be proud! You held out longer than anyone could have expected. (Now watch TPTB vindicate you in episode 23!)
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 22:50
:D but I am forming a theory. I just need a day wandering around aimlessly to think about it.
# spnlit 2015-04-29 13:51
I agree it is difficult. The conflicts in the storyline are: Was Dean a demon or demonic. Crowley tells Dean that if he does not sate the mark he will become a demon. But Dean in the 200th episode, telling his own story said he was a Knight of Hell, a Demon. Another conflict : Could Dean make choices when he was a demon/ or demonic? I thought Dean could make choices just because Crowley also said Dean had to pick a side had a choice and thus could make a choice: Demon or human. maybe Crowley was just frustrated with his inability to control Dean. So if Dean could make choices..... he chose to be more demonic, let himself go... did not care anymore. During the whole cure process based on the dialogue the demonic was in control of Dean.

SAM: What the hell are we doing to him, Cas? I mean, even after I gave him all that blood, he still said he didn’t want to be cured, that he didn’t want to be human.
CASTIEL: Well… I see his point. You know, only humans can feel real joy, but … also such profound pain. This is easier.
[Dean wakes up, and his eyes are black. The black dissipates, and Sam unscrews the flask in his hand. Dean looks up to Sam and Cas, groaning and letting out a breath. He looks around, uncertain, while Sam and Cas watch him carefully.]
Dean was too demonic to control the drive to commit fratricide and yes, he did want to Kill Sam in the bar but was interrupted.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-29 15:40
I dont think that Dean was going to kill Sam in the bar. He told Sam that he was giving him a chance and that he should take it. Nothing had completely played out there, it seemed as if DemonDean was more interested in his whiskey. If Sam had continued to push it then it might have gotten ugly but DemonDean was definitely in control of himself at that time, or maybe instead of fighting he would have convinced Sam to do a karaoke duet once it started back up for the night. I wonder what song they would have picked... ;)
# E 2015-04-29 22:06
BTW Cheryl... well played, well played. You certainly tried your best to make sense of it all! A valiant effort! :P
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-29 22:12
This is hilarious--read my comment just above which I must have been typing at the same time as yours.
# E 2015-04-29 22:25
Heh... we both used "valiant." That's awesome. :p:p
# cheryl42 2015-04-29 22:52
I will have to say I was having a good time trying to make it all work....:)