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Summary:  This episode was written by Robert Berens and is a combination of myth and monster of the week. The episode centers on the discovery and rescue of a codex that can decode the Book of the Damned and features the indirect return of two former characters: Magnus and Benny.

The episode begins with a cold open set in 1973 St. Louis. A family has bought a house and the daughter, who is rather angry for being given chores in her emerging feminist stance, goes to the basement and in a fit, breaks open a wall. Behind the wall there is a safe, which she opens. Fantastic light effects happen and we see a spirit knock her out and climb up the stairs. When she awakens she discovers her father and brother have committed suicide. She finds her mother, who is still alive. She clings to her mother as the woman takes a blade and slits her own throat.

Rowena and Sam are chatting about their deal, which involves Sam killing Crowley in exchange for her help with the book. Dean texts and he tells Sam he’s found a vamp next in Tulsa. Rowena and Sam agree to terms after she tells him that the book needs a codex created by a dead grand coven witch, Nadya. The men of letters killed her so Rowena suggests he begin looking at “home” for answers.

We find Dean as he’s finishing off the vamp nest. Partially covered in blood, Dean finds a refrigerator and beer and pops open the can as Sam rushes in. Sam’s irritated that Dean didn’t wait but the implication is that Dean is somewhat hyped up on adrenaline, from the mark we assume. Back at the bunker, while Dean sleeps, Sam researches the codex and finds that Cuthbert, our own Magnus, was connected to the witch’s death. In a flashback (which was really well directed) we see the expulsion hearing of Magnus and discover that the codex is part of the Werther box in the episode’s title. Magnus refuses to cooperate with the men of letters and is expelled, but from the tape recording, Sam figures out that it’s connected to St. Louis, where the group had a house.

Sam goes to St. Louis and finds a scared woman with a gun living in the house. As he sits in the car, Dean joins him. Dean figured out where he was. Thinking it’s just a cold case, Dean questions Sam on what he’s doing there. Sam explains (or lies) that the Werther box needs to be taken care of before it can be opened. Dean offers to help and he pretends to be a neighborhood watch guard and gets into the woman’s house. As he distracts Suzie, Sam picks the lock and gets into the basement. Suzie cottons to the deception and starts yelling about no one going into the basement. She demands, at gunpoint, that Dean call Sam back up. Dean is calling to Sam when the box is opened and a light filters into the room, infecting both Suzie and Dean.

Suzie begins seeing her dead family, who encourage her to kill herself, while Dean steps into his hallucination: Purgatory. Suzie locks herself in the library and eventually kills herself before Sam can stop her. Suzie returns as a ghost it seems and starts taunting Sam about his obsession with saving Dean. She tells him to stop himself when Rowena appears and Suzie disappears. Sam goes to find Dean, who is locked inside his hallucination with Benny in Purgatory. Rowena suggests tying Dean up as they go into the basement to get the codex. Opening the box, she claims, will stop the spell Dean is under.

Dean and Benny walk together through Purgatory. Dean is reminded how much he enjoyed the place because it was a place of killing without consequence. Benny begins to convince him that the best choice might be to stay there, aka to kill himself. As Dean continues his hallucination, Rowena helps Sam figure out how to get to the codex, which involves spilling legacy blood. Sam cuts his arm and starts to pour blood into the bowl. Dean seems like he’s about convinced to kill himself. He smashes a bottle against a cabinet and it looks like a knife in his hallucination, but he backs off. He realizes Benny would never ask him to do that and that he can’t really die with the mark.

He kills Benny (very reminiscent to me of "What Is and What Never Can Be") and breaks the spell. He calls out to Sam, who is giving all of his blood to get to the codex. Rowena stands over him and massages the blood out of his arm when Dean shows up and we realize…Rowena wasn’t real!

Sam protests and says the box needs his blood, all of it. Dean cuts his own arm and pours his blood over Sam’s and the box opens.

In the concluding sequences, Dean and Sam are exhausted. Sam recovers as Dean notes that the one thing they always learn – whenever they separate they are weakened. They are stronger together. In the final scenes, Sam and Rowena meet again and Sam gives her the codex. She is opening it when Sam cuffs her to the table. He says the deal will be held, but only after she decodes the book and cures his brother. She screams at him as he leaves her there alone to work.

Another great episode by Robert Berens. Kudos to you, sir. Kudos.


Sam, what are you doing? How awesome is Sam’s desire and determination to save Dean?

What do you think Rowena’s end goal is? Does she really want Crowley killed?

What do you think Dean is going to do when he discovers the book is alive and well and in Rowena’s hands?

Do you think the codex will decode the book? Or is this a red herring?

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!


# iamsam1013 2015-04-22 23:29
I'm still processing this one a little. But I thought it was great. It felt intense and had me on the edge of my seat wanting to know how they were going to get out of it! I love Sam and his determination to save Dean. And I love that he isn't making the same mistakes he made with Ruby. He's dealing with Rowena on his terms (although I'm sure it will somehow come back and bite him anyway). I loved that Dean broke himself out of the spell. And I loved the image of mixing their blood together and realizing (again) that they are stronger together. I hope that was some foreshadowing of how the mark is taken care of in the future. Overall, great episode!
# AlyCat22 2015-04-23 00:11
This episode just makes me miss Benny all that much more. I loved how Dean knew Benny would never say that. Awww...
# AlyCat22 2015-04-23 00:06
What I have to wonder is this the first time Dean has done this to keep the urge at bay? The way he says 'it's the only way I can take the edge off' sounds to me like he may be partaking of some extra curricular activities like Sam did with Ruby. It just seemed like something he may have been doing on the side. Like he was too familiar with it as a solution...?
# Kirabaros 2015-04-23 01:05
I do have go say that Sam is really going through a lot. The hallucination of Suzie was a perfect echo of his thoughts as he teams with Rowena to break the curse of the mark of Cain. It was a nice throwback to when he hallucinated before. The episode was cleverly done to reinforce what we the fans know and that is that the Winchesters are better as a team so yeah the universe is saying something important there.

Sam's handle with care on Rowena shows that he has learned his lesson and is not taking any chances. I laughed at Rowena's attempt at name calling. I think Moose works better. Also helps to emphasize that mother and son are different.
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-23 02:28
My boys are so thin. Yes still pretty / Lean and Mean :)
That's Bobby's house in reverse.[nola's tech jargon]
Rowena was not so Over the top, campy. [figured it was just the writing/directing]
Dean's ''Happy Place'' is really interesting.....
Love this MOTW, your SUBCONSCIOUS.
# Russ 2015-04-23 03:48
What the ??? This episode didn't suck.

Will give it another watch before I comment further, but I'd say the characters and story were the most consistent they've been throughout an episode, all season. My expectations were pretty low, but I didn't want to kick my TV when Rowena came on, and Rob Berens totally Sixth Sense'd me. Didn't see that coming at all.

# NOLANOLA 2015-04-23 05:29
you are one of the reasons I ''keep coming back'' to WFB
:):):):):):D:D: D:D:p:p:p:p;);) ;);););););)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 07:04
Russ, please keep giving your thoughts via the little video clips. It's very creative, and also a hoot.
# E 2015-04-23 08:22
Wow! Glowing praise, Russ. Do tell....:D
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-23 04:05
Remind me not to get hyped for an episode again. No Evil Sam at all :l I had a thought he was originally draining his blood, but dismissed it thinking nooo he's likely dazed from a spell.


Sam, what are you doing? How awesome is Sam’s desire and determination to save Dean? Very heroic

What do you think Rowena’s end goal is? Does she really want Crowley killed? Queen of hell? Revenge on Sam maybe? Naa not the latter

What do you think Dean is going to do when he discovers the book is alive and well and in Rowena’s hands? The most pissed off he's ever been. But I reckon he'll find out too late.

Do you think the codex will decode the book? Or is this a red herring? Rowena could of been lying judging by her behavior when asked or doesn't know. Either way she may turn on Sam when given the chance.
# lonewolf 2015-04-23 06:40
I hope this doesn't mean Sam and Dean will be fighting over Crowley in the finale . . .
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 06:55
I agree with Russ--I LOVED this episode (when Russ says it doesn't suck, that's a veritable love letter). I thought it was fantastic, almost as good as Inside Man, and much better than last weeks episode because:

Dean is back!! We got a visit from the Dean I love, who's been largely missing in action for almost 2 years. Like the impala scene from last week, this whole episode reminded me of what keeps me coming back to the show: the brothers and their relationship. I don't even mind that there was no evidence of a Dean who is getting "worse" because I'll chalk it up to the solo 6-vamp kill sating the MOC. For the first time all year, I felt like both brothers were written in character and I loved it. Dean seemed almost carefree, but upfront about what's going on regarding the MOC. But most importantly, he seemed like the real Dean in terms of how he acted towards Sam. When he pelted down those stairs to rescue Sam, I thought FINALLY. I cannot recall the last time that Dean showed that type of concern towards Sam and it literally warmed my heart. The way he wrapped Sam's wounds. And then best of all, his reminder to Sam that the universe thinks they're strongest together. I just cannot understand why we haven't seen this side of Dean at all this year until now. It was perfect. I also liked the way the Werther spell knew just what angle to take to convince Dean to kill himself. The reminder that Dean has always felt like a killer, which is he why he thought there was such a purity about Purgatory, about spending all day every day killing monsters. Of course in this instance it couldn't work because of the MOC. Since Dean knows he cannot die, he was eventually able to see through and resist the Benny illusion.

Sam is back! We got more POV from a SMART, determined, tough Sam, who is willing to call Dean on his foolhardy decision about going solo against the vamps. Sure that was all wrapped up in a package that is just barely holding things together, but I'll take it. He's not just trusting Rowena willy nilly, he's going to do what it takes to save Dean, but he'll do what he can to reduce any collateral damage. That's why I loved the tactic that the Werther spell used against Sam. First it tried to stoke his guilt over the risks he's willing to take to save Dean, the reminder that the brothers have done so much damage in the name of saving each other. But the spell quickly realized that this would not work against Sam. He KNOWS all of that, and however much it weighs on him, he's going to try to save Dean from an eternity of being a demon. He's hoping to reduce the risk of catastrophic fallout, but he's willing to risk it for Dean. So the spell quickly switched tactics to the one surefire approach with Sam--convincing him that sacrificing himself will gain him what he needs to save Dean. And I was completely blindsided by the Rowena reveal. Call me dumb but I had no idea she was an apparition. I LOVE it when the show surprises me. My only gripe here is that smart Sam would have realized that if he allows himself to bleed out, there will be nobody to follow through with the rest of his plan--Rowena wouldn't bother and nobody else knows about it. But I'll just attribute that to an effect of the spell. And smart Sam was back soon enough, shackling Rowena to the book and taking no chances. Sure, it seems crazy to trust a powerful witch with the mother of all spell books, but at this point Sam knows his other options are limited. I just loved Sammy in this episode.

I kinda enjoyed Rowena in this episode! She's ridiculously over the top and annoying in every scene with Crowley, but she works much better for me in scenes with other characters. I loved her scene with Dean in Inside Man, and I really liked her scenes with Sam here. I'm just thrilled whenever Sam gets a chance to interact with ANYONE besides Dean or Cas. So I love you Berens, for recognizing that Sam is an interesting character in his own right, who can actually relate to other characters. I was starting to get annoyed when Rowena was acting almost concerned about Sam when he was draining himself, until it was clear that she was urging him on, and then when she was revealed as an apparition. But overall Rowena was enjoyable here.

I always love the references to the MOL, and I really liked the scene with Cuthbert Sinclair and the MOL board. It's great that TPTB continue to give us little dribs and drabs of MOL backstory. The MOL is a treasure trove of potential plot devices and story lines and I wish they would do more with it. So keep it coming!

To sum up, this episode wasn't as action packed and exciting as Inside Man, but it was completely engrossing. It focused almost exclusively on the brothers (which is my favorite type of episode--sorry Cas!) and the brothers on the screen were the ones I love, not the almost unrecognizable OOC ones we've been getting for far too long. It made my heart very VERY happy. Please write more episodes Berens!!
# E 2015-04-23 07:25
And I was completely blindsided by the Rowena reveal. Call me dumb but I had no idea she was an apparition. I LOVE it when the show surprises me
I was so blind sided that I didn't even get it! Apparently I missed something vital when I watched it, because I thought she was real until just now. Hehe. OK, maybe I'm just dumb. :D:p
# sylvia37 2015-04-23 09:41
It's funny you mention Dean being back. Robert Berens really knows how to write the brothers so well that his episodes almost make them OOC now. Or I should say Dean OOC. Sam wasn't different, but Dean was definitely a Dean we haven't seen in a while and my reaction was a little different then yours. It just seemed a little contrived to me that Dean's all "we're better together, and I'm sorry I lied about going off on my own...." and being the Dean we've missed just when Sam's is lying and doing stuff behind his back. This show gets so heavy handed with this stuff sometimes. But I did enjoy seeing old Dean for a bit.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 13:23
I agree that the past two years strongly suggest that everything the writers do now is geared toward setting up the "good" Dean "bad" Sam contrast by highlighting how Dean is now being so reasonable and good to Sam, after having essentially goaded him into the risky choices he's making, while Sam is foolishly risking catastrophe. But I just want to bask in this nice glimpse of the old brotherly dynamic because I've been starving for these types of scenes for 2 LONG years. I'm just going to enjoy it until they (inevitably) pull the rug out from under Sam (and us). Maybe they'll surprise us and do what I suggested further down the thread--allow Sam to explain to Dean or someone else that the worst case scenario might in fact be if Dean is NOT cured. I can't say I'm optimistic, but there have been some surprises lately so maybe that will be the biggest surprise of all--Sam the hero! Hey, a girl can dream!
# sylvia37 2015-04-23 15:53
I did thoroughly enjoy seeing the old Dean this episode. I have really missed caring, concerned, not every situation needs an angry response Dean. So I guess I'll try to dream with you. :)
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-23 11:31
I was as surprised as you when it turned out "that" Rowena was an illusion. That is good writing; fooling the watcher or reader. :)
# E 2015-04-23 07:20
Still processing. There were some good things. Sam seemed like an actual character. He had dialog, so that was a nice change. It's too bad that the only character Sam gets to "connect with" is the annoying Rowena, but she was at least tolerable in this episode. I hate the way she so unrealistically exaggerates every word she ways in that "loaded with innuendo" way. Yes, we get it; everything you say has PORTENT. And I like that Sam seems to be taking every precaution with her. But do I think this will help in the end? No. Sam's going to get screwed like he always does. He'll do something stupid, put himself in danger, NOT save Dean and then Dean will have to save both himself and his dumb brother who can't do anything right ever.... kinda like in this episode.

I am not sure where they are going with this. They've gone from pretty much ignoring Sam for the entire season to bashing us over the head with all of his WRONG lately. This is either the clumsiest foreshadowing ever or it's a very awkward double blind. Not sure which, just wish it was a little more subtle and suave whatever they are doing. I am a little annoyed that everyone who came into contact with the box's spell killed themselves, even other Men of Letters, but not Dean; he's so noble and strong that he talks himself out of it. Yes, Dean's awesome like that, I get it. I was happy to see that little bit of concern for Sam though. We haven't seen Dean show even the most remote interest or affection for Sam all season, so that was nice. And Dean seems downright chipper. Guess that mark on his arm isn't really an issue today....*sigh* . That was the best possible use of Benny though; it was like Bobby's return in 9x1 and was affective.

I wasn't overly happy with how neither brother, but particularly Sam seemed so unconcerned about Suzy's death. Sam seemed sorry in the moment she shot herself, but basically seemed over it by episode's end and largely unbothered that his actions caused her to shoot herself. Dude, you caused the death of an innocent by being dumb, why are you not more bothered by that? She does't matter because she was crazy?

Rowena stands over him and massages the blood out of his arm when Dean shows up and we realize…Rowena wasn’t real!
Wait... Rowena wasn't real? I didn't get that. Did I miss something? I just thought she bugged out before Dean could see her. If she wasn't real then why didn't Sam kill himself when Suzy was on him and showing him the gun? Sam didn't talk himself out of it like Dean did so if Rowena wasn't real, then what exactly happened in that scene? And Sam's hallucination of her could read an ancient language that Sam CAN'T read? If she wasn't real then how did Sam's hallucination figure out how to get into the box when Sam himself couldn't? Well, that's confusing. However, if she IS real, I am not at all thrilled that she can just apparate like Harry Potter whenever it suits her. That seems like an awful lot of power for a human witch. Even that 900 year old witch Patrick from the old Dean episode couldn't do that. So, now I am confused. Anyone?
# lala2 2015-04-23 07:35
You know, E, at this point, I don't fear that Sam will do something to put himself in danger, but I think the writers have set him on a path to do something that puts others in danger.

I didn't like the callous way they wrote Sam last night, in general, but I esp. hated the writing w/r/t Suzie. He seemed really indifferent about her death, and given that her death is solely on him, I'm not sure why they had him shrug it off like it didn't matter. Sam's not that cold and uncaring, IMO. It worries me. I foresee a huge bus in Sam's near future. Haha!

ETA: Yeah, Rowena was never at the house. That's the one part of the episode I enjoyed b/c it was a cool twist. When Sam entered the room, Suzie was dead. The ghost or whatever that thing was tried to use Suzie to get Sam to kill himself. It played on what Sam should have been feeling masses amounts of - guilt for unleashing that thing - but it wasn't working, so it morphed into Rowena. Basically, the ghost or whatever knew that Sam would kill himself to save Dean. I figure she wasn't real b/c Dean never acknowledges her presence. He just ran toward Sam, and I immediately wondered why he didn't say something to Rowena like, "What did you do to my brother?" At first, I thought she had used a spell to make herself invisible, but then my sister pointed out that she poofed away like the other ghosts.
# E 2015-04-23 07:46
Yeah... I think you're right. In Carver's little game of tit for tat, he has to make Sam do something to someone else (most likely Dean) because that's what Dean did in season 9. But they set up the possession to make it look like Dean had absolutely no choice in the matter. What he did was seen as heroic and have been treating DEAN like the victim since. But with Sam, we'll be sure to see that he made one bad decision after another in his quest to save Dean, making him the bigger monster and Dean the victim of Sam's ambition once again. So, as the brother's "walk in each other's shoes" so to speak we will see Sam get the punishment for his wrongs the way Dean never did. Meanwhile, Dean won't know how Sam feels because it's never even occurred to him that what he's going through now is similar to what he blammed his brother for all those years. It's pretty hard to walk in someone's shoes when you neither acknowledge that or learn anything from it. Le sigh.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 08:13
The thing is, I've come around to thinking that TPTB could easily justify Sam's desperate measures (if they want to) so that he's not the bad, reckless guy only concerned about his brother.. He's not just trying to save Dean's life, he's trying to save him from eternity as a demon. And not just any demon, the heir to Cain in a way. The Cain who casually decided to slaughter about one sixth (I think) of the population just because they were his bloodline. So arguably, NOT curing Dean could cause far more catastrophic consequences than curing Dean. Yes, they still haven't showed the need for urgency, but Sam doesn't want to wait until Dean is too far gone to be saved. Now will they actually let Sam voice these justifications? Another question entirely.
# E 2015-04-23 08:26
Hi samandean... yes TPTB COULD justify Sam's actions completely.. show that what he's doing is necessary, heroic even. Just like they did with Dean in season 9 when he had Sam possessed. I ain't holding' ma breath though. They didn't justify Sam's not look for Dean in season 8 and they didn't justify Sam's hurt over the possession in season 9, so why would they justify what he's doing now? Not when they can have the trifecta of Sam assassination if they throw him under the bus again this year? Besides is Sam screws up THIS season, that leaves another whole season for Dean to clean up the mess.
# anonymousN 2015-04-23 11:31
E, did they explain why the box required Sam and Dean's blood.Isn't Sam a legacy himself?(I have not watched this episode , maybe tomorrow)
# lala2 2015-04-23 12:26
Anonymous, the box didn't require both of their blood. Dean snapped himself out of the hallucination and came upon Sam killing himself. Sam told Dean it needed blood - can't remember if he said blood from the MOL - so Dean wrapped up Sam's arm and pushed him away and said if it needed more blood, it could have his. Basically, he was offering up his own blood since Sam was willing to drain himself.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 14:36
Actually I just thought of another scenario for the end of the season which allows Sam to be the hero, although he then pays the price for it. Cain said that Dean is living his life in reverse, destined to kill Sam, etc. But what if there is an additional meaning to "the reverse?" If Sam succeeds in removing the MOC through info they get from the Book, what if the reverse means he goes darkside? Cain took on the MOC to save Abel from Lucifer's overtures. If Dean gets rid of/rejects the MOC, he will have done the opposite of Cain, so maybe the opposite situation results-- Sam becomes an instrument of Lucifer. That fits with Misha's hint that there will be a moment of big relief (the MOC is gone!) followed by an oh s**t moment (Sammy's gone dark!). All along I've thought the most likely result is Sam dies but they've been to that well with both boys so many times. So that is my latest, and final, theory, which I'm kind of liking. And I know who else would like it--yeah you, YellowEyedSam!
# E 2015-04-23 17:35
I like your scenario and it gives the show a direction to go in next year. I have no problems at all with a Dark Sammy. Jared is so good at playing that, I never get tired of it. The only thing I don't want at this point is for Sam's actions to make everything worse for everyone else. I don't want him being responsible for the death of innocents (as he was here, although he hardly seemed to care) or to make Dean's situation even worse, or to be responsible for the deaths of Cas or the to kill the world. I want Sam to get a win here; it's been so, so long since he's done something right. I don't mind if Sam is the one who suffers because of what he's doing now; Sam knows that this is a possibility and is willing to take that risk. I just don't want him thrown under the bus AGAIN.

I REALLY want the MoC over with..... it's been a huge snoozefest with intermittent bouts of mildly interesting. TPTB haven't done nearly enough with it, or with its affects on Dean to even remotely hold my interest. I read a comment on another site that said the MoC has helped Dean more than it's hindered him. It's even saved his life on numbers occasions including this episode. You'd think that the Mark would be getting Dean to try and kill himself... it would want the power of a fully demonized Dean wouldn't it? So why is it allowing Dean to be completely rational now and hang on to his life? I just don't get it.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-23 18:32
I REALLY want the MoC over with..... it's been a huge snoozefest with intermittent bouts of mildly interesting.
Agreed. Its time to move on now. Its had 1 and a half seasons that became stale in in the first half of S10. I want to say it should of ended mid season but I can't offer a solution. Maybe if they just showed Dean getting worse or something!
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-23 18:15
Oh you know me so well :D

If Sam succeeds in removing the MOC through info they get from the Book, what if the reverse means he goes darkside?
Thats a good thought, but as much as I'd love to believe that I don't think it sounds like Cain's warning.

Also no more Sam or Dean deaths please. Its very close to becoming overused. I really REALLY want Sam to go darkside just like the version from Yellow Fever.

In the meantime I'll just carry on writing Evil Sam to get my kicks. :3
# eilf 2015-04-24 18:18
My thinking on the finale is that Dean kills Cas (no, hear me out). Rowena is working with Sam to break the curse because her endgame IS just to have Sam kill Crowley. Time is running out. Crowley realises what is going on, kills Rowena thereby simultaneously going completely evil again (because matricide!) and having Rowena's last words be about how she is oh SO PROUD of her little boy! Sam in the meantime finishes the cure just as Dean attacks him. Dean recovers and all is well, HOWEVER (big twist) Cas ISN'T dead! he comes in on the scene, thinks Dean is about to kill Sam and stabs Dean in the back killing him! Dean falls dead into Sam's horrified arms! *

(big relief moment followed by OH NO moment)

Followed by cliffhanger undo-al and embarrassed apologies from Cas first episode next season.

What we need is Shakespearean levels of drama in the finale ....

Other potential finale. Sam cures Dean. Everyone cheers. Relief for a few minutes. But wait! Dean is not cured! (I can't even begin to write that like it would be exciting or a surprise, I like my first theory better).

Other, other potential finale: Crowley kills Cas to prevent any last minute save since he wants Dean as a demon, Rowena kills Crowley - since if you want a job doing you probably should do it yourself - , Rowena casts a spell to reverse the effects of the MOC because she doesn't want Dean coming after her, Dean kills Sam! (drama, heartbreak, hugs) Rowena's interference causes the curse to be broken, it turns out Cain isn't dead at all, Cain kills Dean, everyone goes to the veil and hangs out there (drinking beer and trying to decide whose fault it all is) for a couple of episodes.

*ETA fairly sure Sam's arms wouldn't be the only bit of him that was horrified ....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 19:25
it turns out Cain isn't dead at all, Cain kills Dean, everyone goes to the veil and hangs out there (drinking beer and trying to decide whose fault it all is) for a couple of episodes.
Do they get to see/hang out with Kevin?:) Your potential finales are hilarious--you and Russ should write comedy together. Actually E and AlyCat and a few other posters would be excellent comedy writers as well.
# eilf 2015-04-24 19:37
I suspect his comment would be 'you are ALL to blame! I leave you alone for 5 minutes ....'

Also thank you :) We aim to please ...
# AlyCat22 2015-04-25 10:56
Thanks! That's very kind of you!!! I love all the imaginative, thoughtful, creative posts by everyone!!! We are a lucky bunch!
# LEAH 2015-04-24 19:13
I have been kind of saying something similar (with less details) for about a week. I feel that Sam going full-on darkside as a result of something going wrong in his desperate and heroic attempts to save Dean, could be an awesome way to go. Who doesn't love darkSam and Jared would blow the doors off with his performance. That to me would fill the bill of "going there". Something that has been hanging over his/their heads most of the series. Their worst fears realized. Soulless Sam was completely different in my view as was MegSam. I expect someone or more to die. Not Sam or Dean.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 19:35
Leah I totally agree. Originally I liked the idea of a self-sacrificin g, dead (temporarily) Sam, but now I desperately want a dark Sam as long as he saves Dean first. Partly because Jared does kill it when he's dark. But also because Sam has seemed so passive and reticent this season--he did and said almost nothing of interest between the first few episodes and these last few. I want Sam to start kicking ass and taking names, and it seems like the only way these writers will give that to us is if Sammy goes darkside. Seriously, how many times this season has Sam beat up or killed a bad guy? Off the top of my head I can only think of a couple--the vamps in the Kate episode, and frankly that seemed bogus since his arm was in a sling. And I want him to be darker than demon Dean was--it won't be too hard. Yep, Dark Sam would be glorious!
# lala2 2015-04-23 12:23
I understand that Sam doesn't want to wait until it gets to that point (i.e., Dean becoming an uncontrollable, crazed demon), but if they are going to show Sam causing the deaths of innocent ppl like Suzie then they also need to show Dean going off the handle, IMO. It would provide Sam w/perspective and allow the audience to understand his actions and sympathize w/him. If Dean is flying off the handle and wreaking havoc, the loss of innocent life in the hope of prevent an even larger loss of life will make more sense.

However, they don't write Sam in a sympathetic way at all. We see Dean behaving fine, and we see Sam doing things that lead to an innocent woman's death. That plays right into that "Sam is bigger monster" crap Carver's been spewing since S8!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 13:36
I didn't think Sam's actions that lead to Suzie's death were callous. After all, he thought he had used a spell that would neutralize the Werther spell. You're right that neither he nor Dean seemed unduly perturbed by Suzie's death (although didn't Sam sadly look at her corpse? I'll have to look for that on a rewatch). But I think that's the way both brothers have been written for awhile now. They never seem to angst as much about the deaths of innocents, and they no longer attempt to exorcise demons and save the humans. This has troubled me for awhile--it seems like TPTB are only interested in the "hunting things" aspect and not as much on the "saving people" part. Maybe they think it's implicit that the hunting life eventually makes you hardened/jaded so that the deaths no longer get to you, similar to the way doctors get used to deaths, or police get hardened to violence. I don't know, but like you, it bothers me that the boys no longer seem to care as much about the civilian deaths.
# lala2 2015-04-23 15:05
Someone said on another board that Sam was all upset about someone he didn't save an episode or so ago though. Who knows? There is no consistency to this show anymore so it's hard for me to say what's happening.
# E 2015-04-23 17:43
Sam was very disproportionat ely upset at the death of Kit, the guy he barely knew and couldn't save in the latest Cole episode about the Kahn worm. Then he actually is responsible for Suzy's death and that barely registers for whatever reason. I like RB's episodes pretty much more than any other writer on this show ATM, but there's still not a lot of consistency. I don't mind if Sam is feeling desperate and is willing to do dark things to save Dean, but I'd like to know that he hasn't lost all his moral sense. He can be conflicted about those two things... the death of an innocent and his quest to save Dean. It would have been nice to see that Suzy's death bothered him just a little, and he had to weigh that against getting the codex.
# Sharon 2015-04-23 15:12
That is because the co-dependency is all consuming to the exclusion of everything and everybody else it is like a addiction that leads to one disaster to another. And it will be that and the guilt trip laid on Sam that will end up destroying him.
# E 2015-04-23 07:56
Hhehe... I guess I wasn't paying enough attention... that's entirely possible as I've had trouble concentrating on the episodes lately. I DID have my computer up and running while I was watching. That's probably why I missed it. Still though, why would Sam risk death before he'd even managed to find a way to save Dean? Seems a bit short sighted. And did Sam uncover some latent witchcraft abilities? He didn't really have the knowledge to deal with the box's spell but managed to get the job done anyway.
# lala2 2015-04-23 12:31
Haha . . . I'm only half paying attn these days too so I completely understand :)

By the time Sam saw Rowena, he was under the spell/curse so I don't think he was consciously risking death; he was just compelled to kill himself b/c he was under that spell. Thankfully, Dean was unaffected by the spell, or rather broke from the spell's grip and managed to save both himself and Sam.

You got me on the reading of the box. I'm not sure how Sam did that, which is why I was fooled into thinking Rowena was actually there.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 07:58
No, Rowena wasn't real. Remember how surprised she seemed when Sam brought her the book at the end? And it didn't bother me that Dean alone was able to resist the spell because he is unique. The spell was able to convince or trick everyone else into killing themselves, but Dean alone knows he CANNOT die, he will simply become a demon. So the spell can't convince him that it would be better if he died because his death actually is the worst case scenario for him. As for Sam, at least it took two tries for the spell to kill him. It couldn't convince him for the reason I stated in my post, so it had to trick him by playing to his greatest weakness-his desperate desire to save Dean. I don't think it made Sam look dumb because he's in good company - the spell succeeded against everyone else, including 2 full-fledged MOLs. As far as how fake Rowena could read the box, I think it makes sense because she was an apparition created by Sinclair's brilliant spell. The spell WANTS people to kill themselves, so since the creator of the spell could read the writing (being the author of it) it makes sense that the apparition conjured up by the spell could read it. Moreover, the spell wants Sam to kill himself, and it can only do that if the writing is deciphered and he begins to give his blood. Hey, if Sinclair was powerful and brilliant enough to make his entire house invisible, I'll suspend my disbelief and accept that the spell on the box can tailor what it does to each person. I do agree with you about Suzy's death, but by now I'm getting used to the fact that the brothers apparently don't give that much of a crap about "saving people" anymore. I don't like it, but it seems to be the new normal. When's the last time they actually tried to exorcise a demon instead of just killing him/her? That's why it struck me as ridiculous that Sam was so distraught over Kit's death in the Cole episode. Yeah, I get that really he was thinking about not being able to save Dean, but still.
# spnlit 2015-04-24 14:10
E, I think that Rowena was a hallucination but it is a bit confusing and the writing was a bit deceptive in the attempt to trick us, the viewer. The writer wanted us to believe Rowena was real and went to the great length to have Rowena help open the box. This is what made her real. The fact she is a hallucination does not work for me because I do not think Magnus would have allowed a hallucination that was designed to protect the opening of the box to actually help open it. With that said maybe the idea was that Sam would die before he succeeded and they were not counting on Dean to beat the suicide hallucination and open the box by adding his blood. Another observation is that I think both Sam and Dean are extraordinary special MOL. Both of them beat the suicide hallucination. Dean would not kill himself and thought his way out. Sam was not bleeding out to kill himself but rather to save his brother, obvious difference. So, because it was for the love of his brother and Dean's love for him by adding his blood and working together, Sam did not succmb to death either. The universe was telling them that they do work better together.
# nicknicknicknick 2015-04-23 07:43
Great episode!!!! I'm pretty sure Rowena was reading the words that were already on the box to begin with - definitely "sitim restinguere" was printed there in clear view for the audience to see (even though Rowena seemed to be reading it out of sequence to where her hands were pointing). So if Sam could see the words there, and he provided the English translations, it makes sense that he would be able to decipher it even if Rowena wasn't real. But when Dean said "Sammy whatever you're seeing, it's a trick, it's not real", I began to realize that Rowena was part of the box's spell. And the fact that she vanished with the same yellow glow that escaped from the box cinched it for me.
# Glorie 2015-04-23 07:48
I am a little annoyed that everyone who came into contact with the box's spell killed themselves, even other Men of Letters, but not Dean; he's so noble and strong that he talks himself out of it.
Because no one else who came near it was a MOL. Plus, remember how Cuthbert was snarking at the MOLs about being "Librarians" and not real men? Dean or Sam fit the bill for the small percentage that could see through the illusions. They were unusual hunter/MOL combos, they were legacies, they had experience at getting fooled by supernatural things. Both realized the illusion immediately and muscled through it. I liked this particularly because it showed them as experienced grown-ups. Not sure even the early season Dean could have the mental capability to power through the illusion.
# E 2015-04-23 08:16
I'm not sure Sam recognized it. I think he was pretty near death and would have died, by his own hand, had Dean not saved him.... so, really only Dean talked himself out of it.
# BookLady 2015-04-24 20:37
Yes, but the yellow smoke/spirit/th ing was a spell. If Rowena's death ray spell didn't work on Dean in making him dead then this spell wasn't going to make him dead either. As Crowley said, the Mark doesn't let its bearer die easily. It protects him.
# E 2015-04-24 21:44
But that doesn't make any sense to me. WHY does the mark protect the wearers life? Wouldnt it be better and more powerful with Dean as a full fledged demon? You'd think the mark would be pushing Dean to die again so it could take over entirely. Cain was a demon, full fledged knight of hell, he died by his own hand and the blade took over then. Why is it different for Dean then for Cain. None of it makes any sense.
# njspnfan 2015-04-23 08:08
An intense, provocative episode; even after 10 seasons, this show can still surprise you. I liked it a lot but need to watch it again to let everything sink in.

Just a couple of quick thoughts and questions...

Excellent acting all around, and a well directed and shot episode; clever cutting between Cuthbert's expulsion hearing and Sam listening to the tape at the same table.

Sam was affected by the box's protective spell, why wasn't Suzie back in 1973? Or was she? For that matter, what compelled Suzie to take a sledgehammer to that wall in the first place? Talk about your moody teenagers.

So Dean is going on hunts to feed the MoC. Why would Dean think he would go to Purgatory if he killed himself? Wouldn't he go to heaven or hell? If he wanted to go back to purgatory, to protect Sam and others from the MoC, couldn't he just find a rogue reaper to take him there? IMO, I don't think that purgatory is the place that Dean would find peace; that's just the MoC portion of Dean looking to be fed, and purgatory is the perfect place for that. Ultimately, that isn't Dean's ideal place because Sam isn't there. I did like Dean this episode a lot more than the Dean we've seen of late.

We got a smarter Sam this episode and, while he's frantic and desperate, bordering on reckless, there was a firm acknowledgement on his part about possible collateral damage. The lying between the brothers is a little contrived, particularly on Sam's part, but giving that a pass for now. I had suspected that Sam was hallucinating Rowena, but wasn't sure till the end. Also found it interesting that Sam wasn't driven to attempting suicide by Suzie trying to guilt him in to it, it was the desire to try to save Dean by any means necessary, leading him to almost bleed himself to death to gain access to the codex to read the Book of the Damned. I am glad that Sam doesn't trust Rowena, but still think this whole scheme is going to blow up in his face.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-23 10:07
I seem to recall that the mother said the workmen had left for the day. It looked like that particular wall was marked and the workers were going to tear it down anyway so she just used it to "take her frustrations" out on. I've only seen the ep once but that's what I gleaned from it.
# njspnfan 2015-04-23 10:41
that makes sense - forgot about that. thanks.
# LEAH 2015-04-23 13:28
That part was bugging me too. Thanks.
# eilf 2015-04-24 20:50
What Alycat said :D:

Bobo Berens@robertberens
@LaurenBabad she was mad at her mom and the wall was slated for demolition by workman anyway-- she figured she could get away with it
1:47 AM - 23 Apr 2015
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-23 12:05
Dean loved the PURITY of ''kill or be killed'' in purgatory. No grey areas. B/W only.
Deans ''HEAVEN'' would NOT be purgatory, I agree. ''Enchanted Dean's Heaven'' IS.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-23 12:32
Suzie fell back as the box opened therefore dodging the spell before it could detect her. I guess anyway.
# njspnfan 2015-04-23 12:45
ok, thanks - that part wasn't terribly clear
# Jen 2015-04-23 08:58
Well lots of chit chat about this episode. I think its amazing how we as a population never see one thing the same. I say Red apple you say Green apple. Thats whats so good about this site. Not one of us has ever seen one episode queit the same. This would be a great place for people stuyding the human phschy to come heaps of individualsim here LOL
I found this episode flat - in a good way. Nothing over dramatized no great music to listen too, no great fight scenes to watch and destract us from the story. Desperete Sam. Desperete Dean. Black & White.
I saw two desperete people in a no win situation going through their daily lives hanging on by a thread. Yes I feel Dean is becoming more honest & truthfull with Sam the more darker he gets. He is drowning and he is crying out to Sam for help in typical male Winchester style. Look at me Sam I need to kill to sedate the mark, I need to drink rest and sleep I'm barely hanging on. Sam hearing his brothers crys is doing the only thing he can sacrifice himself, if you were going to the lengths Sam is going to would you tell your bro or sis, no way. So far he is doing it right chaining Rowenna up and controling the situation. Sam knows alot about spell work and languges we know this we have seen this through the later seasons, the writers don't need to keep reminding us of that. The young girl in the 70's didn't get affected by the spell because she was knocked out - remember, Sam was in front of it so he got hit first. Sam translated the words - being blood of a MOL but didn't relize till late into the spell it wanted all his blood by then Sam was so far gone he just wanted that codex bugger the repricussions. And purgatory is Dean's happy place he told us that - his a hunter a killer of all things bad purgatory would be heaven for him - no guilt, no need to explain himself . Dean came out of his dream or spell seemingly so easy because of the blood Sam was pouring into the Werther box - the spell was gradually being broken - and wasn't it beautiful to see the old Dean wrapping up Sam's wrist being concerned & mixing his blood with Sam's - hohummmmmm :) We work better together :):)
# E 2015-04-23 16:36
It's not so much red and green apples as it is white/gold dress, blue/black dress! :p:p:p
# LEAH 2015-04-23 17:49
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 18:02
It's not so much red and green apples as it is white/gold dress, blue/black dress! :p:p:p
Maybe it's because I'm really tired but I don't get this reference. Explain? Oops, forget it, I just remembered about the dress thing.
# E 2015-04-23 20:40
....white and gold btw...:D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 21:43
Me too.:)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 18:03
Dean came out of his dream or spell seemingly so easy because of the blood Sam was pouring into the Werther box - the spell was gradually being broken

Jen that never occurred to me but it makes sense. Nice insight!
# E 2015-04-23 20:45
Yeah... That works for me too.
# sylvia37 2015-04-23 10:02
To answer your questions:

1. I do think Sam is awesome and I wish that they had actually chosen to write the story where they guys work together to figure out a solution rather than Sam having to go behind Dean's back. You could see on his face the minute he decided to open the box without caution (kudos to Jared) and ended up releasing the spell. All I could think was, dammit Sam! Ha. I guess that's the reaction they were going for.

2. I think Rowena is a lying liar who lies. She's lied to everyone including her son, so I think she was just trying to get Sam to get her the book. And I don't think she wants to have Sam kill Crowley. I think she wants something out of it so she can prove to Crowley that she's on his side. She doesn't know the boys at all so she doesn't know how to get to Sam yet, but I think he's desperate enough and she's good at ferreting out weaknesses.

3. I think Dean is going to have a shit fit and Sam is in for a nasty dressing down about how he screwed up and how now he's given their enemy exactly what she wanted and is using his weakness against him. I hope I'm wrong, but I can hear it in my head. Call back to season 4, yuck.

4. This one is hard to say, but I'm leaning toward the book being a red herring. I think Rowena just really wanted the Grand Coven's spell book.

It was a good episode and I was tense through most of it. I'm loving all the Sam lately, although I really wish they would somehow learn to write so the brother's stories play out at the same time so we didn't have to wait all season for it. They just can't seem to manage it. And, as I stated above, I really wish they'd change this tune a little and have the brothers working together for a solution rather than this deception song and dance. I hate this feeling of waiting for the other shoe to smack Sam in the face as the bus runs over him. I know lots of people like that sort of story telling, but I kind of wish they'd change it up a bit. But I do like Robert Berens' writing a lot and I'm so glad we have at least one writer that seems to "get" Sam and Dean. It's unfortunate that we don't see more of his episodes.

Edited to add that I particularly liked the parallel of Dean commenting on the way Sam is looking at him like a diseased killer puppy and Sam saying how Dean looked at him like a freak in season 4. I kind of hope that that means that Dean is getting a lesson about how Sam felt and feels about himself. Not holding my breath but it was a nice call back.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 13:43
Sadly I don't think there will EVER be a scene in which Dean recognizes the parallels between what he's going through now and things that Sam went through in the past, and realizes that maybe he should have been more understanding and nicer to Sam at those times. These writers are either unaware of/uninterested in exploring these types of parallels.
# E 2015-04-24 15:24
Agreed samandean, agreed. Although I notice that TPTB have no trouble revisiting Dean's pain and hurt ad infinitum over and over again. There's that double standard again.
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-23 11:38
# njspnfan 2015-04-23 11:54
SHIELD YOUR EYES !!!!!!!!!! :o:o:o:o:o
# cheryl42 2015-04-23 12:46
I had to turn off my TV and go outside.:o
# AlyCat22 2015-04-23 17:12
You should know better! There's no escape, it's already permeated our collective memories. Foolish you, thinking a brief respite outside would do anything towards erasing that monstronsity from your mind. No amount of brain bleach. I still involuntarily flinch whenever I hear or read that title.
# cheryl42 2015-04-23 22:51
My favorite part of the episode that shall remain nameless was when Sam and Dean got in the car and split. I am sure we all wanted to be in that car right along with them....
# AlyCat22 2015-04-24 01:23
Oh Hell, I had hailed a taxi long before that... ;)
# cheryl42 2015-04-24 10:06
No I'd rather be in the Impala with Sam and Dean....:)
# AlyCat22 2015-04-25 11:03
Ordinarily I would agree but even they were hanging around in Bloodlines longer than I could stomach. 10 minutes in and I was mentally hailing a taxi.
# cheryl42 2015-04-25 13:24
Yes but Baby looked great in the city of Chicago and Sam's hair blowing in the Windy City in the last shot was beautiful. So see there is always something even in the most horrible of episodes that will make me smile. I just turned down the volume and hid my eyes until the guys were back on screen again.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 09:00
the episode that shall remain nameless
Yes, to speak its name is to give it a terrible power over us! We must resist ever talking, or even thinking, about it again and maybe it will shrivel up and die (or at least the memory of it). :)
# AlyCat22 2015-04-25 11:12
Yes, because we certainly would never want to make it a Tulpa!

Unfortunately it has already imprinted itself on the fabric of the cosmos... sadly we shall never be free of it, even if we are never to speak of it again because, horror of horrors, there are actually some out there who liked it! I know, I know its almost too much to fathom... be brave! We must soldier on...
# LEAH 2015-04-23 13:31
# LEAH 2015-04-23 13:31
oops double post.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-23 18:34
Ugh.. my most disliked episode (followed by Bitten and Paper moon)
# cheryl42 2015-04-23 12:55
I had to watch this episode at 0 dark 30. My brain doesn't process on no sleep so I need to watch again. But from what I could process this is how you do a monster of the week. It was a cool monster that tied to the brothers/MOL, the mytharc and wasn't a momentum killer. We got insight into the both Sam and Dean, their fears and their secret desires. Another great episode by RB and a continuation of the great run of episodes we've been getting. All good.
# Ginger 2015-04-23 13:39
Points off for Dean being made to apologize for being selfish
I took Dean's two apologizes as Dean giving Sam the opening to fess up to what he is doing. I got that from Dean's look in the car when he said he was in on the case if Sam would have him and from the closing scene when Dean said that the universe wants them working together. I've seen that look on Dean's face in Twi Hard after he got the vampire cure and he knew Sam had fed him to Boris. I could be wrong, but that's how I took it.

A couple of points: I thought the episode handled the issue of suicide in a great way, showing that it was a choice. Suzie chose to commit suicide over the guilt she has carried for many years over her family's death, so I don't put that on the Winchesters. The guilt over her death wasn't enough to drive Sam to chose death because getting rid of the spell was the Winchester's responsibility, and that's why Rowena's illusion was brought up. Sam feels guilty in making a deal with her, but he still chose to die to save Dean, but Dean just chose to live.

I do hope to eventually get some explanation of what the Mark is, what it's purpose is, how it works, and what it represents. In this episode, it was shown in a positive light; wanting Dean to live. What does that mean, given how it's been portrayed as something terrible that turns it's bearer into a killing machine?

I liked the episode. It moved fast, good seamless twists, and every character did their job well. Loved seeing Benny again, and I am so happy his character wan't ruined.
# kate 2015-04-23 14:12
A couple of things:
Did anyone take note of how many times Dean apologized for going off alone? And when he was, Sam prompted him to say more than that.
"I shouldn't have gone off solo like that was stupid."
Sam "And?"
Dean "And selfish. it was a douche move, if you're doing this case by yourself to teach me a lesson you don't have to, ok"
"If you say this is a case, I;m... if you;ll have me" strange for him to asking Sam to let him hunt with him. Dean must think that his running off was a bigger deal than it was/seemed?
And later at the end of the episode he said sorry again:
"sorry about yesterday, going rogue on you like that..."

And last week when he told Sam about Crowley's mother trying to kill him.

He's only ever said "sorry" like 8 times I can recall in ten seasons and then two episodes he's apologized almost as many times. Makes you wonder why, he so ready to "confess" (admitting it takes the edge off, telling about Rowena after lying) and apologizing.
just something I've been thinking about...
peace yall

loved, loved, loved the episode.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 14:25
That's a good observation Kate. I was glad to have the old Dean back, but in some ways this Dean is NICER than old Dean. Because, you're right, Dean has only apologized to Sam a handful of times. I wonder what the significance of it is, if any?
# lala2 2015-04-23 14:59
To make Sam look even worse w/all his lies and deception? I'm not sure. It doesn't look good for Sam though IMO.
# sylvia37 2015-04-23 16:28
That was my take unfortunately, but maybe I'm just being negative. I try hard not to watch the show with that sort of bias but these last seasons have sort of killed my ability to empathize with Dean, so I have a hard time not looking for hidden or should I say not so hidden agendas of the writers.
# E 2015-04-23 17:06
I wonder why people keep bringing up how honest Dean is being. He ISN'T being honest at all. He's lying as much as Sam and about something that is a mortal danger to Sam. And yet we are being inundated with scenes of "honest Dean" lately with zero acknowledgement by the show or by Dean that's he's even aware that he's lying. At the same time TPTB are falling all over themselves to show how shady Sam is being with Sam radiating guilt out of every pour. I especially could have done without all the multiple Dean apologies over things that don't matter as a means to show how honest Dean is being paired up with Sam's shifty eyed silences. Sam really has no reason to keep anything he's doing a secret IMO. He can just say, "I kept the Book, I'm working with Rowena to find a cure. You don't like it? Tough. Is there anything YOU'D like to tell me?" I'm tired of the double standard.
# sylvia37 2015-04-23 17:13
Now THAT would be a nice twist of their usual nonsense. I'd love to see Sam tell Dean to lump it.
# E 2015-04-23 17:47
Ug... that would be poor, pour, pore... pick a pore people...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-23 18:11
Oh I don't think Dean is being particularly honest. Telling Sam about his meeting with Rowena gets him no points for honesty because there was no reason NOT to tell him. It never made one iota of sense for Dean to hide that from Sam in the first place, other than so he could eventually "come clean" about it, thereby presenting a contrast with Sam and HIS secret. I just agreed that it's odd how many times Dean apologized to Sam in the past few episodes, apologies and Dean often being mutually exclusive. And to apologize about taking on the vamp nest alone? That doesn't seem like old Dean or MOC Dean.
# Aslansown 2015-04-24 11:46
I wonder if part of the apologizing is Dean being contrite over what his impulsiveness led to: his taking the MOC which led to his becoming a demon whom Sam had to cure. He became a demon - a fate worse than dying - and is still under the influence of the MOC. That's humiliating for someone who wants to do the right thing -- be a hero, save people, protect his brother, etc., all the hero stuff. I just see it as his trying to show that he's not as brash as in the past, that he's learned some lessons.
# E 2015-04-24 15:28
I wish he'd just say so then. I don't want to have to divine that he mean's he's sorry for taking on the MoC when he's apologizing for something so trivial and meaningless. How are we supposed to make the connection between those two events, especially when they are so far apart (it's nearly two years now)? Why can't he just say it? And why can't Sam call him on it? It's incredibly frustrating and contrived drama.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 21:34
Hi Aslansown! I hope you're right about Dean's motives for seeming contrite. But what I wonder is why is he only starting to act that way now, when he's supposedly getting worse? It almost seems like he's actually getting much better. I really hope they explain Dean's behavior in a way that makes sense. But for now, it's great having big brother Dean back.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-04-23 14:55
Loved the episode so trying to keep my thoughts together about it. So here goes.

Rowena clearly wants the book of the damned and she knows the secrets of the covenant lies in the bunker/bunkers of MOL. I am not sure the decoder is in any help to decipher the book. I think Rowena wanted it for herself and used Sam because she knows he is desperate. Sam shackling her she didn't expect though so he played her too.

It was nice to see Magnus again because I thought it was a shame he bit the dust only in one episode. He was pretty dangerous guy and slightly sick lets be honest to invent that kind of a fail safe.

Also Dean killing six vampires on his own is NOT a good thing. I mean even earlier when he was slightly powered up in A4 by the MOC he had trouble even with one vampire. So joking about a record only made my skin crawl. He was reckless and well, proud, cheering about it. Like when he was hustling with the pool. Not ok in my eyes. But I can say that I chuckled when he used his tracking tricks to follow Sam. If the boys want to find one another they will. Sam got caught red handed. :D

Poor Suzie/Suzy... Sam couldn't have done anything to save her as the spell was already working. It was not coincidence that the door opened when she had shot herself. The box were already targeting Sam because it didn't seem that the box had power to keep the door locked and Suzy didn't lock it. Sam was sorry when he saw she was dead but it didn't push him to kill himself so then appeared the fake Rowena. I took it between when the box was compromised and the trap set loose and finally opened in the end that nothing was what it seemed. So fake Rowena urged Sam to open the box and take his life during it. She seemed to do a spell to show the text but I am not sure she did. It might have been the entity also but when Fake!Rowena read the text. (Was it latin or something) Sam still translated the text to her out loud. So Sam was actually solving it himself and found out they needed the blood from MOL as Sam and Dean are their legacy.

The box actually had one weakness on its trap. If the person can't die and he/she knows death would bring something more horrible to their way that the trap doesn't work. Dean knew killing himself he would not end to purgatory because he can't die but he would be turned into a demon which yeah would be even worse and he would harm even more people so he broke off from the hold luckily. And also him hulking out from the chair almost like it was toothpicks... Not a good thing either...

But I loved the ending where they defused the box together and the brother scenes were great. And still in the end even Dean used the hammer to the box. It wasn't shown but I think that box went to billion pieces... He is really trying to let it out in every way he can. In this episode Sam also gave it his all. He was smart searching for information in the bunker, finding the spell only from few words from Rowena. Not giving her even an inch and outsmarting her in the end. Also he showed that he would sacrifice even himself to save Dean and also how he tried to get to Suzy to save her. Sam just cares too much at the moment and he seems to near breaking point also.

Berens is my favorite writer at the moment and this episode was brilliant. I think every little thing had a meaning in this episode and the directing was also great.

Top special choices from this episode:

- Magnus
- Benny
- Purgatory

Well used and I hope we will see them again.

All in all, I see pain and suffering ahead and I believe both boys will have trouble coming their way. Rowena is actually pretty pissed off... The lying is not good and Dean was reminded where things are heading and he literally said he will end it if needed. So sadsadsad Lilah here... :(

- LK
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-23 16:44
Peep this, the MOC saved
# E 2015-04-23 20:51
Wait.... If the spell knew that Dean had the MoC in the first place then why did it not know Dean couldn't commit suicide?
# hopey 2015-04-23 21:38
:):D:o:p:(;) Dean an Sam... omfg so obsessed with supernatural an the crew...much
# BookLady 2015-04-23 21:44

Just my thoughts --

I don't think Dean has been completely Dean since he fought Cain. Something in him is being hidden (almost like Gadreel inside Sam) so he's playing at being Dean like Soulless Sam played at being Sam. I think there is something a little off about Dean. Yes, he's apologizing too much and since when has he ever said "if you'll have me"? Asking if Sam will allow him on a hunt? Does that sound like Dean? Then there was that look as he brushed by Cas just before Sam admitted Dean was in trouble. I think there's a lot more demon or something (Knight of Hell?) in Dean than anyone knows. Perhaps it was awakened by his using the First Blade. I just feel that Dean is being much more deceptive than he appears. More than just not telling anyone what Cain said. I think something happened in that barn that we did not see - maybe something just after he killed Cain.

Also, my observations about the Winchesters, including John, is that they don't think too much in the long term when dealing with situations. They deal with it in the present and will address the fallout later. They'll "figure it" out seems to be the way they operate. So, Dean was dying, make a deal with Azazel, not thinking how that would break Dean. Sam is dying, make a crossroads deal or put an angel in him and don't think too much about what it would do to Sam. Dean is in Hell, ingest demon blood to go after Lillith who holds his contract or he is cursed to become a demon so give a codex and a powerfully evil spell book to a completely untrustworthy witch in hopes of curing him. The consequences can always be dealt with later. When they act this way about each other, they are completely in character, IMO. As Bobby would say, it's the Winchester game book :) Yes, we'd like it if they'd stop being deceptive and secretive about what they are doing, but they are doing what they've always done, starting with John, because they know if the other knows their plans, they will try to stop it from happening. The Winchesters excel at sacrificing themselves for their family - damn the consequences!

I agree, please, no more Sam or Dean death. The finale is going to be interesting!
# LEAH 2015-04-23 22:42
Nice post. That would actually be kind of cool. If something happened after.....

[quoteThe Winchesters excel at sacrificing themselves for their family - damn the consequences!]

Ain't that the truth.:)

Messed up the quote thingy but you get the point.
# E 2015-04-24 06:22
I would love this Booklady, it would certainly make the whole MoC things much more interesting (because mostly it's not interesting). My only problem with this's not obvious that this is What they are doing. I mean, I don't need to be hit over the head with obviousness, but what they are doing now is just too subtle to even know if that is what is going on. Dean mostly seems like Dean, except occasionally when he seems a bit off, and its impossible to say if its the MoC or inconsistent writing. There is no attempt seemingly to relate any of the things that are off about Dean back to the narrative so that we, the viewers can understand that it's the MoC that is driving Dean's actions. And if it IS the MoC, and Dean really is off in some way we need to see what the danger of that is... to Sam or Cas or even to the innocents the brother's are trying to save. None of that is there however....the teeny, tiny little bits of Dean that seem off don't relate back to anything, nor do they affect any of the other characters, its not even affecting how the brothers relate to each other. I see more in the effects of Sam's lies in how the brothers are relating to one another than in how the MoC is affecting their relationship. What's the point if those things going on with Dean if they don't affect either the other characters or the story in any way that can be clearly seen? Sam is not suspicious of Dean at all; he hasn't questioned what Dean is doing nor has he seemed especially worried episode to episode, he hasn't questioned Dean's behavior or had to intervene and stop Dean from doing something rash or inapropriate. It's just not enough, (well at least not for me anyway) to give the MoC any urgency or relevance. In this episode having the MoC actually saved Dean's life and by extension Sam's. How am I supposed to understand Sam's desperation when Dean is not in a desperate place? I don't see the danger to Dean or to anyone Dean comes into contact with. There is only a vague idea that Dean might at some point end up going off the rails. But since there hasn't been even a glimmer of that in episodes now, I can't really seem to drum up much interest. Dean appears very in control, very stable and pretty much like he always has been. As far as I'm concerned her could continue on the way he is for years to come. How I wish your idea was being used in a clear way; that sounds like a fascinating and exciting way to tell the story. If that's what they are going for, then they've lost me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 09:14
BookLady I agree that Dean seems a little off but I agree with E that the depiction of this is so inconsistent that it's impossible to tell what's going on. Dean seemed demony in Inside Man when he hustled the college kids, took the kid's watch and then rubbed it in--it's almost like he was cruelly toying with them. Then there's this episode, where in most ways it (finally) felt like old Dean to me, yet he was almost too nice at times, as with the repeated apologies. In the scene with Benny, where Dean had no reason to fake anything because he knew Benny was just an apparition, he didn't show any signs of being a demon. Maybe Dean is slowly regressing into being a demon, with sporadic appearances by his demon self, and he doesn't realize it. But why would his demon self be excessively nice to Sam? The whole thing is confusing, but I agree with you that something seems not quite right with Dean.
# BookLady 2015-04-24 12:16
I think his more normal Dean behavior and niceness to Sam could be attributed to his having just slaked the Mark's thirst - taken the edge off, as he said. He'd killed - a lot - and drank, eaten and slept and now felt great. All was fine is his world, for the moment. Maybe a little regret in seeing his brother so upset that he'd endangered his life came into play. I agree, it's hard to know. Everything will become clear after a big reveal in the finale? Maybe?

I do think Dean knows his brother well and he knows Sam is going behind his back to try to save him. It sure would be lovely if the Winchesters would have an open and honest conversation - maybe before the end of the season?! A girl can hope.

Anyway, I had another thought since this is the speculation threat - what if the cure for the MoC curse is the willingness of the brothers to share the burden of the curse? If Sam agrees to bear the Mark for Dean or with Dean? Since the Mark started with one brother pitted against the other, could undoing it be tied into two bothers willing to be united by it?
# E 2015-04-24 15:34
That could be pretty cool I think; share the burden. The spoilers dont' seem to indicate that this is where the are going even though that sounds like a great idea. I won't get into the spoilers in case you are trying to be unspoiled and there are a few doozies out there so watch out!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 14:33
what if the cure for the MoC curse is the willingness of the brothers to share the burden of the curse? If Sam agrees to bear the Mark for Dean or with Dean?
BookLady, I meant this to be a response to your post, in case that wasn't clear. I forgot to hit the reply button.

That's an interesting theory that I've never heard before! I see two problems with it. First Dean would have to transfer it to Sam the way Cain did to Dean, and I just don't see Dean ever taking that kind of risk with Sam. If it didn't work, Sam would end up as bad off as Dean. But even if the writers can come up with a credible reason for Dean to do it, I keep coming back to Misha's warning of an instant of "yay, problem solved" and then an "oh s**t" moment in the finale. I hope the "yay" moment is Dean being cured (because the MOC arc wore out its welcome with me a loooong time ago), but that has to trigger some horrible consequence. If both brothers bear the MOC, they'd both be in a terrible position when the "oh s**t" moment happened. I can't see both brothers going dark, although that would actually make for interesting story telling! And the Rowena actress did say TPTB are "going there" in the finale. So now I've come full circle and am thinking maybe you're right!

As far as the brothers having an open and honest conversation, I think the writers believe that would violate some sacred tenet of SPN script writing. In the past Carver has written some excellent honest dialogue between the boys--I just watched Sacrifice last night, and that last scene is one of my all-time favorites between the brothers. But I was much less thrilled with Carver's Season 9 finale. When it seemed that Dean maybe was finally going to apologize to Sam and they'd maybe air out all of the anger between them, instead Sam brushes it off! I was unbelievably ticked off about that. So I hope we get the Carver who wrote Sacrifice and not the Season 9 Carver.
# E 2015-04-24 15:41
I hope we get the Carver who wrote Sacrifice and not the Season 9 Carver.
From your computer screen to God's ears! Me too! I HATED the season 9 finale. The trite one liners that resolved NOTHING and the extra run of that bus over Sam's mangled carcass left me more than underwhelmed, it left me downright irritated. Then in post season interviews Carver had the nerve to say that the boys had "resolved their differences" and "were in a good place." Huh?! Are you kidding me? If they were in such a "good place" then why are the still completely messed up in the exact same way again this year? Season 9 resolved nothing and is part of the reason season 10 is such a huge mess.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 16:32
I think that season 9 finale was Carver's worst episode (as a writer) ever, by far. I went into the hiatus really ticked off and depressed, and I hadn't started commenting here so I had nobody to commiserate with me.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-25 11:16
Carver got Supernatural and Being Human confused... Hey! He's a busy man! It's an honest mistake!!!!!
# eilf 2015-04-24 15:31
I saw a few comments that I have some ideas for, but it got too complicated so I am making this a general comment.

Dean didn't so much talk himself out of the curse as the curse he is under was stronger than the box curse. They are mutually exclusive. The curse from the box would only end when the person committed suicide but Dean can't die. The MOC doesn't WANT him to be dead so it was the MOC that broke the spell. I don't think there are 2% of people who are immune, I think there are limited number of cases where the spell can be defeated - and a more powerful curse would definitely be one of them.

Sam was under the spell too as anyone would be who wanted to get into the box. The box cursed him as it cursed the MOL who died. If the othe MOL had realized what Dean realized - that the box needed 'enough legacy blood to kill a man' - but it didn't all have to come from the SAME legacy - and had worked together they would have gotten the door open and survived too. The curse isn't designed with killing everyone as its primary goal, I think that is a side effect of it being too strong because Magnus was crazy. The box killed people whose primary goal was to get into the box if they fail to work out the solution and if you were around and not focused on opening it then you were just collateral damage. I have a sort of theory about that but honestly I think it was mostly just a plothole that RB couldn't fill.

Dean worked out the blood thing because he had just been in the same situation. Sam didn't work it out possibly because at a fundamental level he is still suicidal. He knows he can't win. Dean won't forgive him if he saves him using the book because Dean doesn't want him to (for some inexplicable reason) and he won't forgive him if he doesn't try every possible avenue to save him (like using the damn book). He knows that. if Dean becomes a demon then Sam will suffer an eternity of being taunted by someone who looks like his brother and knows every possible way of destroying Sam.

And if Sam does save Dean using any and all means available to him he knows from bitter experience that it will come back and bite him, it is a no-win situation. 'Giving it all' to 'do one thing right' is a state of mind we have already seen Sam in twice over the past 3 seasons. I think this was the same as Sacrifice and the grace removal episode. Sam didn't know during the possession that Dean actually has come around to recognizing what the endgame he (Dean) is waiting for will do to other people. (As an aside I think that this might be how Jared sees Sam's situation, and why he decided to do the always keep fighting campaign when he did. Sam has been in a totally impossible situation for so long now that it is hard to see how he couldn't have reached his breaking point. Suicide is a complex issue that probably doesn't belong in this discussion, but I can appreciate Jared being sensitive to it under the circumstances Sam is now under. Having seen the episode that set him off to do the campaign, I salute him for his sensitivity to how it might affect some fans.)
But getting back to the story:

Regarding breaking the spell - the hallucination of Rowena didn't tell Sam the way to get into the box Sam worked it out himself through 'Rowena' - he was the one reading out the lettering, the lighting up was part of the spell.

In the same way Sam was not indifferent to killing Suzie or what her ghost was telling him. There was no ghost. All the abuse Sam got was what he is telling himself. He believes still that what the brothers are doing, and what he is being forced into doing now is wrong, he still believes that while he will do aything to save Dean, he himself is not more important than anyone else in the world and that the damage they cause saving each other is not morally tenable - and yet he will do it anyway for Dean. To anyone who thinks that all the stuff that 'Suzie' said to Sam was Sam not being harsh enough on himself then it is totally impossible for Sam to ever be harsh enough on himself to satisfy people.

Dean's conversation with Benny similarly is what Dean is telling himself. The intricacies of the hallucinations were very well done and they DO hang together.

I really wonder if Dean isn't SoullessDean by now though? Or at least sometimes he is Dean and sometimes SoullessDean? The conversation in the car was very creepy! It was just like SoullessSam trying to be a real boy. It would explain why Dean wavers from 'destroy the book' to 'you SAID you wouldn't do whatever it takes to save me' , which, like the curses, are also mutually exclusive points. Also - it struck me how much Dean apologizing to Sam several times in one episode reminded me of Dean realizing that John Winchester was possessed by a demon BECAUSE John said he was proud of him - which is such a sad moment of understanding Dean's psyche. I know that Sam was probably buying time in the car when he said 'And?' in response to Dean apologizing, but he really did look suspicious, and it really didn't look like ordinary Dean. I am probably wrong about this. But that is what it seemed like...

And, yes, for those keeping score, I lasted 1 episode before I broke down and watched :D
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 16:55
Maybe I'm being dense eilf but what does this refer to?

Dean worked out the blood thing because he had just been in the same situation.
And I was also a little confused by what you were referring to here:

Sam didn't know during the possession that Dean actually has come around to recognizing what the endgame he (Dean) is waiting for will do to other people.
What is that endgame? Sorry if I'm being obtuse!
Also, when you say Sam is still suicidal, what do you mean? I've never considered Sam to be suicidal. In Sacrifice I thought he was WILLING to die to prove himself to Dean and to do something that he thought would save a lot of lives, but I don't think in general he wanted to die. After all, he had told Dean in Trial and Error that he saw the light at the end of the tunnel. And in the Great Escapist he seemed so happy when he told Dean that the trials were purifying him. When did you think he displayed signs of being suicidal? BTW, what was the episode that prompted Jared to start the campaign? I can't recall that. If anything was going to make him feel suicidal, it would have been when a partly human Dean still wanted to bash his head in with a hammer. It really bothers me that that was glossed over and not remarked on by anyone, when I think it seemed pretty monumental. I agree with the poster who said that Sam is just about the most tragic character ever. His life is an unending series of death, loss, anger, confusion, turmoil, guilt, and strife between him and the person he loves most. Remember in Season 1 when Sam actually laughed every now and then? I mean real laughs, not fleeting chuckles.

it struck me how much Dean apologizing to Sam several times in one episode reminded me of Dean realizing that John Winchester was possessed by a demon BECAUSE John said he was proud of him -

That's a great analogy. The apology thing did seem weird, but in other ways Dean seems like his old self.

Aren't you glad you watched this episode? I loved it, although it is raising some interesting questions that HOPEFULLY were intentional and will be addressed by the finale.
# eilf 2015-04-24 17:50
I just meant that Dean was aware that there was an hallucination going on because it had just happened to him - Sam sort of knew it with Dean but he hadn't seen inside the hallucination at that stage. Dean's solution to the blood problem (2 people) was very quick and clever!

Sam realizes that Dean's endgame (do nothing, it's MY problem) can only result in Dean becoming a demon again - which is why he didn't destroy the book. He doesn't know Dean's secret from Dean (that Dean is destined to kill him) but he really has to know it from all other sources! (which is NOT a get-out-of-jail -free card on Dean being to blame for not telling Sam - that whole angle of the story is still dumb as a bag of rocks.) Sam hanging around Dean is both brave and suicidal since he doesn't know when or how Dean will slip back into being a demon, and he must suspect that it is already happening - last season he was nervous having Dean around while he was sleeping, this season it doesn't even seem to matter, though now he knows what Dean as a demon can do.

I didn't think he was suicidal, but now I think he is - he has definitely done a few suicidally reckless things over the past couple of seasons - he didn't care about dying in Sacrifice because according to what he said it was clear to him he was never going to be able to live up to Dean's standards (though he has always done his best to live up to his own rock-solid standards). Sam no longer has anyone else outside of Dean and Dean is judgemental. Sam stood and watched Demon!Dean swing the hammer at his head in the beginning of this season rather than kill Dean - that was suicidal for sure. He tried to force Cas to finish extracting the grace, which would kill him, and for what? To find Gadreel? It is as pointless as Dean taking on an eternal curse to kill one demon. He told Charlie in last weeks episode he was still ready to die ... to fix the worlds problems since he was talking about the trials (which, honestly ... how is one person supposed to fix the worlds problems?). Sam has shut down and hardly spoken a full sentence since the beginning of Season 8 except at the absolute outside edge of being stressed or dying. If it isn't just uninterested writing and there actually IS a storyline for Sam there it seems to me that it is a story of someone deep in despair with no escape and no support. He doesn't even seem to be able to drown his sorrows. SPN is a VERY effective horror series, jut not scary-monsters horror ...

Heh, no I am not at all happy I watched it. It was a good episode! I was down to no hope and now I have tiny hopes and I know they will have their little tiny hope brains bashed in with a large club next week and to the end of the season ... someone will spray pesticide on my newly budded hopes ... hope is BAD! (etc ... lots of hyperbole ;))
# E 2015-04-24 23:33
The curse from the box would only end when the person committed suicide but Dean can't die. The MOC doesn't WANT him to be dead so it was the MOC that broke the spell.
Ok... I've seen this idea several times now, and maybe I am being obtuse, but WHY doesn't the Mark want Dean dead? When Dean first got the mark in season 9, it clearly wanted him dead to the point that he was becoming more and more ill the longer he had it. I'd think the mark would want the full package....demon dean in all his mundane, lukewarm glory. That's that way it was with Cain, and that's the way it was with Dean in season 9, so why is it different now? Why is the Mark helping Dean to stay alive when it could actually hasten his death and get full control of him. This makes absolutely no sense to me. Thoughts?

(As an aside I think that this might be how Jared sees Sam's situation, and why he decided to do the always keep fighting campaign when he did. Sam has been in a totally impossible situation for so long now that it is hard to see how he couldn't have reached his breaking point. Suicide is a complex issue that probably doesn't belong in this discussion, but I can appreciate Jared being sensitive to it under the circumstances Sam is now under. Having seen the episode that set him off to do the campaign, I salute him for his sensitivity to how it might affect some fans.)
I think that the biggest mitigating factor to Jared doing the Always Keep Fighting Campaign was the suicide of his friend and long time stand-in Matt Riley near New Years this year. That's what really pushed him to do this campaign. I think the suicide themes in this episode were an unhappy coincidence.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-25 06:47
I actually disagree with those who say Dean was able to break the spell because the MOC doesn't want him dead. I think the spell couldn't succeed with him because unlike everybody else affected by the spell, Dean KNOWS that in his case, death will be the worst case scenario. Neither guilt nor trickery can change that unavoidable fact. I also liked Jen's thought that by then Sam's blood had weakened the spell, making it easier for Dean to shake off the effects.

When Dean first got the mark in season 9, it clearly wanted him dead to the point that he was becoming more and more ill the longer he had it.

I actually recalled season 9 differently. I thought Crowley said that unless Dean kept killing, he would get worse and worse until he died. Of course that has been contradicted entirely this year, because Dean hasn't been a killing machine-- there were big chunks of time in which he didn't kill anything and he didn't seem to be getting sick the way he was when Sam and Cas locked him in the bunker in season 9. And he was only locked in the bunker a short time. I've said it before, but all of the rules of the MOC seem very unclear and inconsistent, with different writers portraying it in different ways, and that's all on Carver. Maybe when they translate the Book of the Damned this will all be explained in a credible way that ties together all of the seemingly contradictory aspects of it. Hah, who am I kidding!

E, if I'm in understanding you correctly, the friend of Jared's who died, that was his body double?
# E 2015-04-25 07:19
Yeah... the MoC is a huge mess of head scratching contradictions alright. Dean did keep getting sicker when he was human and could not kill in season 9. I remember Crowley saying that if he didn't kill he'd end up dying. I took that to mean that the MoC wants it's wearer to be a demon. That's what it seems to do, draw the wearer closer and closer to being a demon until they ARE a demon and only then can the Mark be used to the fullest extent of it's power. It makes zero sense to me that the Mark would be helping Dean or trying to keep him alive. If that's true then what exactly is Dean fighting against? If the mark is helping him, then what exactly is his struggle? To fight off the urge to kill? That's it? That's not enough IMO. Dean's been calling himself a killer since season 2, that's nothing new... a part of him has always wanted to kill. If anything this episode showed that the Mark STILL has no real influence over Dean. It's a suicide spell and the mark should be pulling Dean towards that and/or towards dangerous situations that could result in his death like the vamps nest. So Dean was able to fight off the spell AND the impulses of the Mark to end it all. But this is not clear in the writing at all. The mark is bad... the mark is good depending on the needs of the plot which is how we've ended up with the convoluted snooze fest we have now.

E, if I'm in understanding you correctly, the friend of Jared's who died, that was his body double?
As far as I understand... yes, Matt Riley was Jared's stand-in for seasons 1-7 and a good friend to Jared. He was in one episode of the Show in season 2.....Devil's Trap where he played the demon possessed fire fighter. He suffered from depression and took his own life right around new years 2015; he was 44. I think that this was really what got Jared fired up about his campaign.

And on another sad note.... Jaap Broeker, Jensen's long time stand-in died of cancer recently as well. I remember Jaap Broeker from an episode of X-Files that dealt with clairvoyants and Jaap played a television psychic called 'The Stupendous Yappi.' He was also David Duchovny's stand in as well. Sad losses in the early part of this year.
# eilf 2015-04-25 08:43
The rules for the MOC really don't make any sense do they :) This is why I think Dean is faking it a lot of the time - like Soulless Sam did. Except that every time Dean does something that is genuinely concerned - like when he stopped Sam from bleeding out - that then becomes unexplained instead. I do think that this may be the twist in the story though.

Have you ever seen that story about the teacher who gives pairs of children in her english class a story to write between them, with alternating chapters and in one pair the boy wants to write about cowboys and aliens and the girl wants to write about horses and their versions of the story are basically them fighting with each other? Some of the threads in the SPN storyline read like that these days :D

What would have been awesomely creepy is if over the past few episodes there were occasional references to unexplained bunches of deaths around the US that the boys sort of superficially take an interest in, but not really ... until eventually they do, and over the duration of an episode it became clear that it was Dean (in demon blackout mode) who was doing the killing....
# AlyCat22 2015-04-25 11:36
That's one thing I was kinda wondering about myself. Is this vamp nest wipeout the only foray Dean has embarked upon? I wouldn't be surprised if we find out there have been others.
# cheryl42 2015-04-25 10:08
I think it's the MOC in combination with the Blade that was making Dean sick. If the Blade doesn't complete the kill (which is why Dean got sick after not killing Gadreel) it starts to slowly kill the bearer of the Mark. The last time Dean held the Blade he killed Cain. But having the Mark also makes the bearer a killer which is why Cain (once he killed the house full of demons) started killing again. Eventually Dean isn't going to care who he kills, monster or human Blade or not.
# E 2015-04-25 10:26
But this STILL doesn't make any sense. Dean has only made a single kill this year with the blade and that was Cain. By the rules set up in season 9, Dean should be getting sicker and sicker and heading toward death right now, because he's not using the blade in his kills at all anymore. It was implied in season 9 that the blade and mark work together and won't tolerate being separated for long especially while the bearer of the mark is still human. It's all so hopelessly muddled.... when basically makes me reject the whole thing as ridiculous which is where I am now. The Mark is a magical McGuffin... it's good and gives Dean the power to fight off evil beings, and saves him from powerful spells.... it's bad and gives him nightmares and urges him to kill.... it's good because it allows him to pick who is worthy of being killed... it's bad because he might end up killing his bother... it's not bad because he has no problem fighting it's effects.... WTH???
# cheryl42 2015-04-25 13:17
He wasn't getting sicker in S9 until he didn't kill Gadreel. Before that the MOC was making him want to kill. When he first touched the Blade and until he didn't kill Gadreel the Blade was satisfied but slowly taking control. He killed Cain so the Blade was satisfied. If he doesn't kill his prey with the Blade then he gets sicker. He still wants to kill and right now killing monsters is enough. Cain was able to fight the urge to kill because he threw the Blade into the ocean. Once he started killing again though the Mark awakened that desire in him (and my personal theory is that the reason that killing Abel drove Cain insane is because Abel was innocent and Cain was the one Lucifer was talking to). If Dean is ever reunited with the Blade then all bets are off as far as killing those he loves. The Mark makes him immortal but the Blade and the Mark together makes him a monster. As long as he can fight the urge to kill everything human and only kill monsters he will be alright for a while. But at some point the Marks desire for the Blade will overcome Dean and he will (I imagine) try to get Castiel to reveal it's location. Then Crowley, Cas and Sam will all be at risk.
# E 2015-04-25 13:55
The killing of Cain with the blade should have started Dean on a descent into madness and cravings that is far more obvious than it is....just like it did with Cain. He should be an out of control raving lunatic by now whom no one is safe from. Instead the hint of him craving for the blade hasn't even been mentioned one time. He didn't crave it before Cain and he hasn't craved it since, which is a contradiction to season 9 when, after he used it, he craved it at all times. He may crave killing, but any old vamps nest will do apparently.... so it seems that he can manage indefinitely the way he is right now. And if we are supposed to be seeing any aberration in Dean's behavior, then why are none of the other characters not seeing it? Other than Sam's one line "he's in trouble" there has been zero indication by Dean, by Sam or by anyone that has been with him any length of time that Dean is in any way different or in danger. The only time he hasn't seemed exactly like regular Dean was in the bar with Rowena; hell SHE could have commented that he seems pretty ruthless with those college kids, but she didn't. Dean himself could have indicated something to Crowley during their talk. When Dean was telling Sam about the incident in this episode, he could have mentioned how badly he treated them and been worried about that; but he didn't even seem to remember. I can't help but compare what they are doing now with Dean with how they handled Soulless Sam..... during that time, it was clear that Sam was really, really off. And when Dean found out what the problem was he commented on it in nearly every episode. He even told Sam that he was going to have to make all the moral decisions because Sam could no longer think on that level any more. They discussed it between them, speculated on what being soulless meant for Sam, and commented on his thinking and his actions, they even disagreed with one another on the best course of action and argued about what to do. None of that is happening with Dean now. That's just not good writing IMO.
# cheryl42 2015-04-25 15:27
Well he didn't start down a path of madness after he killed Magnus and he didn't go insane after he killed Abadon (Abbadon, Abaddon). He got angrier and more entitled to his new power. But he didn't turn into a lunatic. It was only after he didn't kill Gadreel that he started to get sick. He was fully in control of himself when he took on Metatron just too full of himself with the power of the Blade in his hands. With Sam's help he learned that he could control the killer urges. And presumably killing monsters is helping him at the moment. But as we have seen with the house full of humans and almost beating bad Charlie to death he can't control it all the time. At least not without Sam to call him back (and so far Sam is the only one that can through to him which is why at some point the Mark and the Blade will need to eliminate Sam). Killing Cain didn't make him insane because he killed him. What will drive Dean insane is killing Sam after Crowley and Castiel ( Crowley not so much but Cas and Sam are the innocents like Abel). It follows for me. I think so far it has been consistent.
# AlyCat22 2015-04-25 11:31
Also the recent unexpected death of Jensens close friend of 15? years. Can't remember his name offhand but he was in the episode Jensen directed in Season 7. He played the Gas & Sip guy who the Leviathan poured the melted cheese over his head before he ate him.
# eilf 2015-04-25 08:26
I think that the biggest mitigating factor to Jared doing the Always Keep Fighting Campaign was the suicide of his friend and long time stand-in Matt Riley near New Years this year. That's what really pushed him to do this campaign. I think the suicide themes in this episode were an unhappy coincidence.
So I wasn't very clear about this I think. Yes absolutely the death of his friend has hit Jared hard and it is terrible for him that this is not the first person he knows that this has happened to. It is terrible to know you couldn't help someone. And he clearly did do the campaign because of this, I didn't mean to take away from a real personal tragedy and put it onto fiction, sorry if it came over that way.

Jared did say that he was doing the campaign with Stephen Amell pushing him to move ahead with it at that particular time and that the episode dealing with suicide was also there and it all began to look like the universe pushing him. I think that maybe looking at the issue of suicide and then (coincindentally) looking at what the show was doing storyline wise he may have seen that there is a chunk of the SPN audience that might need a sort of PSA as the storylines basically become more and more impossible for the characters involved.

If you follow the convention stories that go up around the internet there (seems to be) two striking things. One is that there are a fair number of people who save up their money to go to cons partly because they wanted to tell their stories of their personal struggles with suicide and self harm which the show has helped them not to do, and the other is that they mostly seem to be told to Jared. Maybe that isn't the case, maybe everyone who does these sorts of conventions and play characters people identify with get these sorts of stories on a regular basis. But is sort of seems that Jensen has people who have become sober because of Dean and Misha gets people who feel like they don't fit in and feel alienated. And Jared gets stories of cutting and other things like that, I have seen him do two or three on stage positive-reinforcement speeches to fans. It must be very emotionally exhausting for all of them really. And since all three of them are perfectly well balanced ordinary guys in their thirties(ish) it has to be the characters that people are identifying with when they pick one of them to discuss this with. The fact that Jared wears his heart on his sleeve probably makes people find him easy to approach too.

So my point was that Jared seeing a storyline like this would probably wonder if it was sending the wrong message to this part of the audience. When he was on facebook about it it seems like maybe thinking about the awareness campaign made it clearer to him than the other way around. Here is a late night post on his facebook page: Quote:
The episode we finished shooting tonight (and that y'all will watch next month!) actually deals with suicide. In a way that only Supernatural can. And, it got me thinking...

Don't underestimate your own strength. To persevere. To make it through the most difficult of times.
And, JUST as importantly, don't underestimate your ability to help someone ELSE during THEIR most difficult times. Sometimes all it takes is a kind word, or gesture, to help someone make it through their day.

Tell someone it's gonna be ok, especially when you're not sure that it actually will be.
Who knows? That might be all it takes to make hope into a reality.

In my experience, it comes back to you...
A thousand fold.

Thanks for reading
And this is from TWLOHA:
TWLOHA: What’s the scariest thing Sam Winchester has had to fight on “Supernatural”? How does that compare with what you have had to fight in your life?

JARED: Funnily enough, I feel like Sam struggles with the issues of depression and self-doubt. He also has, literally, tried to end his own life. In the Season 8 finale, Dean tells Sam that if he goes through with something then Sam will die, and Sam’s response is, “So?” That was a very powerful moment for me. I read it, and it made me cry literal, actual tears. I knew people who had that feeling. I, personally, had had that feeling. I think Sam understands that the most difficult or scariest fights aren’t the physical ones and that the scariest thing you can encounter is your own mind. Luckily for us (and for me, so that I can still have my job!), Sam has been able to persevere and stick around. But NOT without a little help!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-25 13:25
Based on what you're saying it seems that Jared would have a problem with any scenario in which Sam killed himself, or allowed himself to be killed, in the finale, even if it is to save Dean. But it really is odd (as Nightsky pointed out) that suicide seems to be a theme in many of the recent episodes. Just a weird coincidence that it made it into so many scripts? I don't know. But I have come around to thinking that maybe Sam is teetering on the brink of feeling suicidal. (you're apparently very persuasive!) I rewatched Book of the Damned last night (and I still loved much of it, but hated almost everything Charlie did/said) and the way Sam said to Charlie that although he loved the life he can't and won't do it without his brother, that implies that he'd rather die than go on without Dean.
# eilf 2015-04-25 15:13
Not really. The brothers ending up dead for each other is practically a tradition at this stage ;) . It is getting to be hard to take seriously TBH.
Jared is just aware of the level of despair involved in this storyline and IMO combining it with his own loss and the fans who communicate how they feel to him - and how they identify with Sam - has made him aware that the storyline may affect people. But it is just an assumption, obviously I don't know it.

I don't believe they intend to have Sam kill himself - though actually it COULD make perfect sense of why Dean is hiding the truth about why he hasn't told Sam about how the curse will play out, if the storyline had made any effort to lay down a framework for it. Dean could believe that he can't tell Sam that he is cursed to kill him, if Dean thought that Sam might kill himself to prevent it (no brother to kill, no curse fulfillment). This idea came up twice already in the show, in season 4/5 (and Sam also tried to swap for Dean in Hell) so there IS a precedent. But the show has been telling us for 2 seasons now that Dean thinks that Sam won't do whatever it takes to save Dean. So that brings us back to 'why is Dean hiding the truth from Sam?'
# E 2015-04-25 15:39
I would totally be behind Sam killing himself in order to save Dean. He was willing to do that last season, and Dean didn't seem to learn anything from that moment in Sacrifice because he's continuing the behavior that pushed Sam into the state he was in at that time. I can totally see Sam being willing to do it in a heartbeat if it means that he's forgiven by Dean for the "same circumstances I would't" comment which seemingly has destroyed Dean's faith in the love Sam carries for him. Sam is in an even more impossible situation this year than he was in last year. Dean totally believes that Sam wouldn't save him; and is demanding that Sam NOT do something rash to save him like saving the book. And yet at the very same time Dean continually bringing up Sam's lack of action in season 8 and Sam's comments about "same circumstances," indicating that Sam's actions were unsatisfactory as far as Dean was concerned. In addition Dean continues to throw the possession back at Sam "I saved your ass back there" to show that HE, Dean WOULD do anything to save Sam and Sam is lacking in Dean's eyes. Sam is so completely screwed. He's damed if he does, damned if he doesn't. As someone else commented on another thread; Sam is the most isolated, sad, tragic and hopeless character in TV history. Always trying his best, always with others best interests at heart and always failing because the rules about what is right, what is good change continually. He's running a race with a movable finish line. Every time he gets close, the finish line is whisked away to a different and unknown location.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-25 19:55
Sam is the most isolated, sad, tragic and hopeless character in TV history. Always trying his best, always with others best interests at heart and always failing because the rules about what is right, what is good change continually. He's running a race with a movable finish line. Every time he gets close, the finish line is whisked away to a different and unknown location.
To me, the saddest thing about this is that in season 7, despite dealing with Lucifer in his head, Sam seemed at peace with what had happened in his life up to that point. In Defending Your Life when Dean asked Sam why the Egyptian god had targeted Dean and not Sam, Sam said it was because he didn't feel guilty. He felt that he had paid the price for all of his poor choices and decisions when he willingly went into the pit. It was such a sign of maturity and personal growth, and one of the things I liked about that season is that Sam did seem more at peace, less tortured. He even dealt calmly with the Lucifer hallucinations- -he didn't rail against it or blame Dean, even though technically it was Dean's fault for restoring his soul. Fast forward to season 8 and Carver upended everything with Sam, in ways that I won't rehash. Suddenly, instead of a Sam at peace with himself and with Dean, we get a 3 year arc of constant discord, harsh words, and guilt for poor Sam. A Sam who constantly feels like he needs redemption. He is the saddest character on TV, and when I watch the show, so often my heart just breaks for him. It looks like they're setting him up for another heartbreak. I don't know how Jared can get through these episodes without feeling depressed at the end of filming.
# E 2015-04-25 13:57
Hi eilf, I didn't think you were diminishing anything, I just could tell if you knew about Matt Riley's death is all. :D:D
# AlyCat22 2015-04-25 11:24
Actually it was Matt but I thought I read in a Jared M&G that he had another friend that had commited suicide as well so it was kinda both that spurred it.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 18:22
I was down to no hope and now I have tiny hopes and I know they will have their little tiny hope brains bashed in with a large club next week and to the end of the season ... someone will spray pesticide on my newly budded hopes ... hope is BAD! (etc ... lots of hyperbole ;))
Laughed my keister off at that one. I'm a sucker for hyperbole. My hopes are more like a bunch of lemmings. They get excited and they all start running together, attracting more and more excited lemmings, and it's a glorious bunch of happy, thrilled, sprinting lemmings.....wh eeeeeee!!!!.... ..and then they all run over the cliff together, and THEIR little brains are dashed on the rocks below. In my high school science class we saw a movie of a bunch of lemmings doing that and it made quite an impression on me, as you can see. I am getting excited about the last few episodes because 2 of the last 3 episodes were great (I wasn't as wild about Book of the Damned). I really, really REALLY want the finale to do right by Sam. Maybe if I wish it hard enough it will happen.
# eilf 2015-04-24 19:14
hope lemmings! :P Love it!
# eilf 2015-04-24 19:24
Jared Padalecki@jarpad

Tonights episode is the one I filmed during the first #AlwaysKeepFigh ting campaign. Its content deals with suicide. #SupernaturaI
9:19 PM - 22 Apr 2015

Bobo Berens @robertberens · Apr 20

As you may have guessed from @jarpad's awesome #alwayskeepfigh ting campaign, this Wednesday's all new #Supernatural deals with suicide.

Bobo Berens @robertberens · Apr 20

It's 1 element among many. But 4 those for whom that theme--and macabre representations of that theme--might be too much, this is a warning.
# eilf 2015-04-24 19:24
. <-- This is what is commonly known as 'the full stop of fail' or TFSoF for short (or TPoF if you are from the US).
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-24 19:48
OK now I'm really confused. What does this refer to;

<-- This is what is commonly known as 'the full stop of fail' or TFSoF for short (or TPoF if you are from the US).
Also thanks for posting those tweets.
# eilf 2015-04-24 19:57
yes that didn't work as well as I thought it would ... the formatting let me down :p. Once you accidentally make a post you cant delete it or leave it entirely empty. So some people put in a full-stop (period), I was just making fun of my unintentional post :)