Summary:  This episode was written by Robbie Thompson and directed by PJ Pesce. The episode revolves around the discovery of an ancient magic book by Charlie and the search for Castiel’s grace.  

The show breaks out into two major narratives. One thread follows Charlie’s flight from a family who wants possession of the book and her meeting up with the boys again. The second thread follows the road trip from hell for poor Castiel, who is trying to get Metatron to lead him to his stolen grace.

When we first see Charlie she continues her badassness by taking on guys in an alley who are chasing after her. We learn that the book she carries “belongs” to their family. She escapes, after a pretty BAMF fight scene and ends up in a phone booth, where she contacts Sam and Dean.

The guys have just been discussing Dean’s encounter with Crowley and Rowena, including finding out about the mark being a curse and the soap opera moment of Rowena being Crowley’s mom. The conversation is interrupted by Charlie’s frantic call. She tells them about the book, which she found in her worldwide trip, and she describes how the book is the book of all curses and their cures – a scary thing that may be able to help Dean. The brothers direct her to a cabin that Bobby had for hunters as they prepare to meet up with her. Dean seems hopeful (as the rather glorious "Boys are Back in Town" blares from the Impala’s radio). There’s a nice brother moment about vacations after the cure.

As the boys go to meet Charlie, Castiel is stuck in his old car (poor thing) with Metatron (poorer thing). There is a nice back and forth chemistry between the two, banterwise, as Metatron pokes at Castiel. At one point, while on the phone with Sam, Castiel asks to kill Metatron. When Sam says no, Castiel satisfies his urge by punching Metatron…twice. (Castiel is me, here.) Metatron takes Castiel on a winding journey that includes a bad diner meal with some really deep dialogue about humanity and then some horrible consequences of bad diner food (not suitable for audiences). After leaving the diner, they encounter a Cupid, who is really pissed about Metatron’s and Castiel’s destruction of heaven. The Cupid pulls out his angel sword and struggles with Castiel. He almost kills Cas but Metatron kills the Cupid first. It’s a bonding moment….or is it?

Back at the cabin, Charlie, Dean, and Sam try to figure out the book and Dean knows something is wrong with the book. It speaks to him and seems to want him to do terrible things. They figure out the book belonged to a really bad, ancient family line named Styne. Dean insists that they destroy the book but Sam hesitates. He and Charlie want to translate it, to save Dean. Dean doesn’t want to pay the price here. It’s too high. There’s tension between Sam and Dean, so Dean leaves to pick up some snacks they promised Charlie. Left alone, Charlie and Sam share a nice dialogue scene where Charlie talks about being a hunter and Sam affirms that this is the life he wants and that he wants that life with his brother.

As we return to Castiel and Metatron, we find that Metatron had another angel hide Castiel’s grace in a library because no one uses them anymore. (Nice cultural commentary there, Thompson.) The angel left a riddle about mad men and the things they will do. As they move through the library, Metatron activates a trap that starts to kill Castiel. Just as Metatron is about to win, Castiel finds his grace and inhales it, as Metatron quickly exits stage right. His wings seemed tinged but yay for Castiel’s returned grace!

We find Dean in the gas station buying snacks when he is attacked by the Styne family. They are intrigued by his having the mark and warn him that using the book comes at a very high price, a destructive price. He fights them off and escapes back to the cabin. Just as he is yelling at Sam to destroy the book, the family barge in and a fight ensues. We see Sam throw the book in the fire just as the very handsome Jacob tries to kill him. Sam knifes him and we watch the book burn.

Back at the bunker, the long awaited meeting of Castiel and Charlie takes place. The gang sit around the table and have pizza but just as we think that all is well, a flashback shows us that Sam didn’t burn the book. Instead he went to the most surprising person for help….Rowena.  Oh Sam, no.

This was a fantastic episode in my opinion. Great interactions and arcs for all the characters and the direction was, in my estimation, some of the best of the season. The episode had a great feeling to it, almost invocative of an independent film with its shots and angles.

Kudos to Thompson and Pesce. They are a great team.

Questions:

Do you think Dean will find out about Rowena and Sam soon and what will be his reaction?

Will the Styne family continue hunting Charlie?

Now that Cas’s grace is back, what is the answer to Metatron’s question? What is Cas’ mission?

How far will Sam go for his brother?

What are the costs of using this book?

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!

Comments  

AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-16 00:09
Going in for second watch. First quick impressions - hated the idea that the "Cupid" would do that. Hated that it was a Cupid, period. Did Dean seem kinda manic during the song? Loved Sammy starting to open up, why did they have to write Charlie jumping in to fill in the rest and then make it about her. Shut up and please take your super special ninja warrior deciphering skills away. Like now. Yay BAMF Cas!!! Metatron is dead man walking... Oh no, Sammy. No. Will Dean end up with his hands on the book? It is calling out to him. Great music. Ok episode, think I will feel more enthusiastic over it once I see it again.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-04-16 01:18
I liked this episode a lot. Dean is still Dean but losing a little more of himself. Not only does he have the Mark but now he has the BOTD to deal with? That's a lot on Dean's plate. He seemed to know something was up with Sam at the end. Probably shouldn't have brought up the whole "Purge" issue to a desperate brother. Now Sam is about to do something totally desperate and biblically stupid. Why do the Winchester's always create more of a mess than they are already in trying to fix their unwise decisions? Charlie was fine in this episode if a little too capable but didn't take away from the brothers I didn't think. Castiel....when will you ever learn....Metatr on is smarter and craftier than you are. He did figure out the clue so good for him. I forgot when Anna got her grace back it caused quite the blast. Good shout out. That was a cool scene. Need to watch it again.....
Alycat the site wouldn't let me post a comment other than in a reply to you. So this really was just a comment not a reply....:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-16 04:22
No problem Cheryl. On rewatch (as much as I could pay attention, RL kept interfering) it was a lot better. Charlie still CharlieSueing it but didn't bother me as muc - oh what am I lying for? Yes she did with the ninja skills and the never seen anything like it (in my very short time as a Hunter), not to mention sewing up her wound and asking the brothers if they know dental floss is good for sewing up wounds... they've only done it their entire life... But overall there was enough going on and she wasn't written to overtake the episode and I think that's why it didn't bother me as much. Evil dude was pretty good. I like that he saw what Sam did and called him out on it, warning him that his own won't stop coming after the book. Like he doesn't have enough to worry about as it is. I was kinda hoping he would get to stick around a bit! It hurts to see Sam so guilty and desperate, knowing he's about to do some really unwise things out of love for his bro. I don't think this will end well for TFW. Deans finally opening up while the other 2/3rds keeping him in the dark. Loved the interaction with Sam and Charlie even tho I wanted to throw something at the screen when she kept interrupting him - let the man speak for pitys sake. And might I say Sammy was looking mighty hot too. Great job tonight Jared! Lastly, someone teach Dean how to buy snacks, please? A bag of sour cream/onion chips, a 6 pack of ? pop ?, and 1 bag of gummy bears? Really??? Where are the tortilla chips with the cheese sauce and salsa, or the dip for the chips? Or those little cheese puffy things, or Hell, a second bag of chips? No beer? Suddenly they are teetotalars? What about something chocolate? A girl has needs!!!! Popcorn? Licorice (even tho Dean would probably be the only one to eat that - he is under the influence of the MOC afterall... ) Damn. Now I'm hungry with no snacks in the house. Oh, did you guys read that the reason Dean had sweats on was because there was an exercise scene that was cut? C'mon! These are the kind of scenes we Sam and Dean girls live for and they cut it?!? Hopefully it will be in the deleted scenes on the DVD...
samanddean
# samanddean 2015-04-16 17:01
I felt the same about Charlie. I like her a lot, but I wish there were more scenes just between Sam & Dean, you know? That's why I watch. And that was such an important speech from Sam (who finally seems to be realizing Dean's pov a little). I really loved this ep, it was probably my favorite of the year. The Boys Are Back In Town playing (man I miss the mullet rock of past seasons!), the talk about a vacation and sand between their toes some day (J2 recently said at a con they'd really love to see the guys on some tropical paradise or a on a cruise, vacationing). The whole vibe of the ep felt like the good old days, when Sam & Dean were on the same page and nothing was more important to them than each other. Cas was also great in this. He went from exasperated, to dying, to bad ass, to awkward/backwar d Cas in less than an hour. Loved it. Metatron: I've had similar conversations about where food goes in and goes out with kids. I had a kind of bemused affection for the character before today (probably due to the way Curtis plays him, like a very naughty child on a sugar rush), but he is now going down.
Overall, fab ep and I will be re-watching it tonight.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-16 23:59
And doesn't that make the loss of Dean to Sam all that much more bittersweet? Sam has to be feeling the closer brotherly connection and the tenuous grip he currently has on it. So painful to watch Sams expressions in those scenes! Jared nailed them!
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-17 14:25
The Cupid doing that made sense to me. One of the ingredients in Metatron's spell to cast out the angels was a Cupid's Bow, which Cas took from a Cupid. It wasn't violent, like killing the Nephilim, but it made the Cupids part of Metatron's plan and part of the suffering of the angels, so a Cupid has a lot of reasons to be specifically mad at both Cas and Metatron.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 04:06
Ok, I can see that. Kinda makes sense in a round about way.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-16 01:37
Very nice episode! Poor boys. So many bad decisions are made by them because they love each other. Charlie had some nice bonding time with Sam, I like that. Sam shared some of his feelings, he doesn't get to do that much. This episode was pretty funny, had some great lines! I actually enjoyed Metratron in this one. Humanity becomes him. I fear for Sam. I think he will succeed but at what cost? Thanks Bookdal.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-16 13:01
I wanted to add how much I liked the portrayal of Jacob and the actor was not hard on the eyes. Hope we see him again.:)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-04-16 13:25
Yeah, he made an impression for me too. I am usually bad at remembering names of "the monsters" or the guys they kill at night but I remembered it immediately after first view. I loved his voice and he was menacing in a calm way. I actually got really interested about the cult and family Styne. I mean they have connections even to the Nazis and also I find the book really interesting and bloody creepy. I just got a gut feeling that Jacob didn't die and I hope I am right. He has a face of evil and he is not very fond of the Winchesters after that but who of the bad guys ever are?

Also it made me chuckle how he called Charlie "Little girl". It made me think of the Big Bad Wolf for some reason. And well... who ever calls Dean a boy is toast. That is a fact. Cain did it and Jacob too. Except this time Sam offed him. :P

- Lilah

Sorry guys. I am totally fangirling Jacob and proud of it. :D
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-16 13:29
:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-17 00:02
Second that! He actually was menacing , except when he wasn't when he was out of his league with Dean at the Gas & Sip!!! ;)
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 01:54
''Samiture Hour'' :o
Loved the Cajun Bad Guy ;)
Charlie is a very bad ass hunter :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-16 04:24
Samiture Hour was a great one. I like cocky, smart mouth Metatron.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 11:02
ASSTIEL makes me smile every single time. ;);););););)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-17 00:04
I have to smile everytime! That one is a classic.
Jen
# Jen 2015-04-16 04:36
I knew this ep was gonna be special from the get go. The first thing I noticed was the music it lifted my pulse & heart rate straight away a bit like the music from the Executioners Song that low beat.
I have always liked Charlie - this ep showed how much she has learnt & added just enough bad ass to suit her. Dean --------------- - long sigh its SAD poor sweetie and Sam --------------- ---------------- ---------- longer sigh he is getting so desperete to save his brother. The Bro moments were beautifully executed and so touching, when Dean opened up about Rowenea & Crowly I so hoped that Sam would do the same thing. ?? Charlie got to ask Sam alot of questions which in turned answered alot of ours. I found when they all came back to the bunker for pizza and Charlie met Cas was wonderful what a great family scene I hope we see more of that in S11. Maybe Cas getting his grace back was a bit hurried ?? But him and Metatron in the car together was hillarious loved Cas & Met moments LOL. I know the season has to finish on a suspensefull note but just for once could neither brother die or go dark just a really dramatic end in some way then we could start S11 with a beach scene maybe in Australia - Sydney's Bondi is nice LOL Sam & Dean tanned healthy and relaxed all their personnal demons sorted and ready to fight the good fight. I dare say they will have to chase down Metatron and the demon tablet and Rowenea and Crowley. Back to the good old days Love & hugs & laughter mixed with dark moments. Like Bobby said the good old days. Jenson and Jared just get better and better Keep going boys xxoo
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-16 07:12
This will probably be a minority opinion but I'll post it anyway, and slink away quietly. A good episode on first watch, until you think about what actually took place. I will rewatch it but am not really thrilled with where they appear to be going with this.

They must have had some budget leftover to spend on some great music for this episode. Acting, pacing, writing (except for logic) were all top notch, and a rare glimpse into Sam's POV, as flawed and OOC as it was.

Castiel and Metatron - they were kind of funny in the car together but who didn't see Metatron escaping? I was also a little confused about the cupid; I thought cupids were lower order angels, cherub third-class, and no match for a real angel? I'm glad Castiel got his grace back but it was a bit anticlimactic. Metatron asked a salient question; what exactly is Castiel's purpose now? I wasn't clear on this part - was the sigil that Metatron drew depleting Castiel of his stolen grace or did it just hobble him? And can a vessel contain grace from more than one angel? And what exactly does Metatron need with the Demon tablet? Didn't he write it down and already know its contents? Unless you can harness power from it, similar to what he did with the angel tablet.

This episode firmly established as canon that Sam was wrong for being mad at Dean for having him possessed by an angel without his consent in order to save him. Dean did this out of love and Sam was an asshole for being angry at him. Let's all keep that in mind when everything goes sideways with Metatron, the Styne Family, The Book of the Damned, Rowena, and Sam going dark in order, or under Rowena's spell, to try to save his brother.

The brother scenes in the car and bunker were some of the better ones of the season; they felt more real, not as forced as it has been other times this season where it felt like they were contractually obligated to include a BM scene in an episode.

Just nitpicking here but the fight scene in the cabin was a little cheesy and not very well staged/choreographed.

They really bludgeoned us with the fact that Dean is being honest and Sam and Castiel are the ones that are lying liars who lie a lot.

And Sam.... the scene between him and Charlie was not bad; it was nice to get some dialog/POV about Sam, but this seems like such a rehash of the Sam S3/S4, with absolutely no lessons learned and none of the maturity that Carver has mentioned repeatedly. To me, it seems out of character to the Sam of S8/S9/S10, but I guess most of the fans like this over-romanticiz ed stuff. And Dean's snide comment to Sam was to guilt/drive him to do anything to save Dean - a bit of a rehash of most of S8. The fact that Sam swapped books really wasn't a surprise but, if the book is calling to the MoC, wouldn't Dean know this or is that completely shielded by the warded lead box?

So, my unfortunate take away from this episode is, because Dean is being honest, and Sam and Castiel are lying and doing questionable things, anything that goes wrong from here on out will not be Dean's fault or responsibility. Even if the MoC compels Dean to kill, it will be viewed as Sam's fault for not destroying the Book of the Damned like Dean told him to. In other words, the same old tired trope.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2015-04-16 08:14
If you're in the minority, then so am I. The Sam POV and the Castiel/Metatro n Buddy Comedy was welcome, but it seems glaringly obvious that Sam is about to get uber-boned and Dean is going to have epic offences to hold over his head for years to come, along with Castiel. I'd like to think that Dean would have told Sam about Rowena anyway, but it seemed to me that they had him being "super" honest at the beginning of the episode so we could see now it's Sam and Cas who are the big liars. And I was really okay with most of it, Charlie included, until petulant Dean stuck his head out to bring up the past AGAIN. I tell you what, if this goes sideways for them and Dean doesn't learn a damn thing AGAIN about how his words affect his brother, I honestly don't know what I'm going to do.

I'm really torn, you know? Part of me wants Sam to just go off on Dean about his constantly changing mantra that Sam can't possibly hope to keep up with. Season 4 berating him for doing something awful to bring him back before he found out that Sam didn't, season 8 berating him for NOT doing something to bring him back after finding out that Sam didn't, just to name a couple. But the other part of me who loves Sam just the way he is, knows that he wont do it because he's Sam and not Dean. He doesn't throw his brother's crap back in his face unless he's really pushed to the wall and even then, it's only to show the audience how poor Dean is so underappreciate d.

Remember the days when Sam stood up for himself? Yeah, he had moments when he would bring stuff up about growing up and making comments about Dean being the good Soldier, but it fit the dynamic of their relationship because Sam LEARNED and MATURED and realized that his perception of their upbringing was not the only one. He came to realize how hard it was for BOTH of them and to understand why Dean acts the way he does and accept him, warts and all. But he also didn't back down when he knew he was right and didn't mind telling Dean when he was being a douche even when it got him punched in the face. I miss that Sam.

Okay, rant over. I really did enjoy most of the episode. I found Cas and Metatron really funny. Misha seems to have good chemistry with everyone. I foolishly hoped that Cas would have Metatron on a leash for a while longer, but I'm glad he has his grace back. I thought Metatron's words to him were on point as well, something we've all been discussing on this site about where his character is heading. I thought Charlie was fine, although I really thought after hearing her talk about sewing herself up with dental floss that the guys would at least have showed a little more concern when they got to the cabin rather than jumping right to the book. I found it a little self centered of them. And I was thrilled that they actually allowed Sam to talk about himself to Charlie although I was not happy that they reduced Sam's whole storyline from season 9 to "you got pissed about how Dean saved your life and said something to hurt your brother." Nice. And despite my fears of how it's going to turn out, I'm kind of excited to see where this thing with Rowena is going. It seems so long since we got to see Sam doing anything that I'm just happy he's back to being part of the plot. Of course, it's going to blow up in his face spectacularly, but I guess I'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Wow, this got long. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 16:39
Agreed. For now I'm just happy that Sam is involved in the story, although maybe I'll end up regretting that. They also need to set it up so that Sam has an actual story arc next year. I honestly don't know if I could watch another whole year like this one, where Sam had such minimal involvement in so many of the episodes. It doesn't seem worth it to watch the show if most episodes leave me feeling angry and bummed instead of excited and entertained.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 09:09
Nice call back to NEWSROOM :P
st50
# st50 2015-04-16 13:30
I'm with you on this one, njspnfan.
There were a lot of things they got right on the episode, and a lot of things that struck me the wrong way. I was going to skip this one, but Jared live-tweeting got me to decide to watch... so my opinions may have been skewed by having already a serious dislike for Charlie, and how Sam is diminished every time she's around (having seen that promo scene, I was already livid)...

I really really dislike that Charlie is not only Queen of the Nerds, but she is now the Most Perfectest Badass Huntress On The Planet. And Sam lets her deal with real killers, while he stokes the fire. Right...... Would've been more likely that he tossed Charlie the book to burn and he took on the fight.... but that wouldn't have fit the plot, so once again, characters bend to weak writing.

I am not liking where it looks like this is heading. And I don't think they've earned the "feels" they expect to come from the final few episodes. It takes more than the odd episode per season to enable to audience to relate to and understand Sam Winchester. All they succeed in doing is making him look to be in the wrong. And all the empathy goes to poor betrayed Dean.

But I admit to being thrilled with Sam voicing ANYTHING - but I HATE that they didn't discuss Sams feelings on the possession in greater detail. And I'm a sucker for the brothers actually getting along... so.... Mixed feelings.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 15:53
Quote:
but I HATE that they didn't discuss Sams feelings on the possession in greater detail.
That is something that I am sure we will never see, because the party line from TPTB is that it doesn't matter- Sam should have just been grateful to Dean and not been such a meanie to him. For as long as SPN is on the air, that is going to bother me as one of the worst things they did to Sam's character.
E
# E 2015-04-19 12:54
Right along with having him not look for Dean. So wait, that's one awful, uncharacteristi c thing they did to Sam's character in both season 8 and season 9. There's still time! There are still 5 episodes left for them to throw Sam under the bus and have him do something uncharacteristi c, or reprehensible or reprehensibly stupid this year too! Might as well go for the trifecta of character assassination.. . come on Carver... pound Sam's character into the dirt for unjustifiable plot reasons this year too! You don't want to destroy your perfect record now do you? I fear for the remainder of this season.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 15:49
Quote:
This episode firmly established as canon that Sam was wrong for being mad at Dean for having him possessed by an angel without his consent in order to save him. Dean did this out of love and Sam was an asshole for being angry at him. Let's all keep that in mind when everything goes sideways with Metatron, the Styne Family, The Book of the Damned, Rowena, and Sam going dark in order, or under Rowena's spell, to try to save his brother.
I could not agree more!
samanddean
# samanddean 2015-04-16 17:10
Is it really that important whose fault this crap with the MoC is? These brothers don't even know how to be honest with each other anymore. As long as what they do is done out of love and concern and the intent to help, (or to protect the other brother from his own self destructive tendencies), I'm ok with it. You'd think they'd learn by this point, but I suppose the flaws make for good drama.

That being said, I thought your post had a lot of very good points. On your Sam Pov comments...what I took away from that scene is that now that the tables are turned and Sam's in the impossible position of trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped, he's gained some insight and may be trying to make up for his somewhat dickish behavior over the angel possession. (and I do think Sam's behavior during season 8 was pretty douchey). They're doing these things out of love...and we all know the aftermath is going to be a sh*tstorm, so thank heave we know there's a season 11.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-16 17:23
i was simply drawing attention to the fact that they went out of their way to have Dean be honest to a fault, with Sam and Castiel both lying to him. If show history is any indicator, this usually means they are setting up Sam and Castiel for the big fall, most likely Sam.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2015-04-18 19:23
I think that Sam wanting to save Dean right now is different from Dean saving Sam last year. The tables aren't truly turned as you say. Sam wants to save Dean from eternal evil and ultimate damnation (the mark came from the devil, after all), and Dean wanted to save Sam from a normal death and Heaven. There's a huge difference and I understand why Sam is desperate. Also, Dean might not want Sam to go to extremes, but Sam knows that Dean doesn't want to be a demon either.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 20:54
Excellent point! It's apples and oranges, not a fair comparison.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-17 14:41
We may be in the minority, but you are not alone. I wasn't thrilled with ninja-Charlie. I'm less thrilled with Sam the forever wrong. They are totally ignoring the fact that Dean is still keeping the fact that Cain, not only said he would kill Sam, but also that he will kill Crowley, Cas and Sam in that order. So as of now, Crowley and Cas are in danger and completely unaware (no big deal about Crowley, but Cas should be) and Sam isn't even being given a heads up that if Dean does kill Crowley, he should head for the hills, or update his will, or take his own goodbye tour. I mean Dean has had 2 goodbye tours one in season three and again before PONR, Sam has had zero chance to say goodbye to his life.

I can't stress how much I hated the show making it crystal clear that Dean tricking Sam into being possessed is equal to Dean having his feelings hurt. So, I had tons of problems with this.

That said, it was nice to have Sam actually talk about himself for once and the scene with Charlie was nice, until it became about Charlie. I'm also unclear why we are supposed to believe that Dean, who is being influenced by a Mark that will do anything to stay on its wearer is right about the Book of the Damned. I'm hoping against hope that the point of Paint it Black where Sam not destroying a book on Dean's orders was a GOOD thing will foreshadow that this choice was right as well. I'm sure I'm wrong, but I'll still hope.
E
# E 2015-04-17 15:53
I have to agree Percy's. They are dropping thousand pound anvils on us to make sure we understand that Dean was TELLING THE TRUTH! in the episode, which in turn showcases that Sam is a lying liar who lies. But has it occurred to anyone, anyone at all that Sam hasn't actually done anything yet? He ISN'T lying. He HASN'T lied. Dean knows that Sam is still looking, he addresses it in every episodes and Sam isn't denying it, so it's not exactly a secret. So I guess the criteria for Sam's dark side is that Dean doesn't approve, therefore its Sam doing dark things. We are being bashed over the head with the wrongness of what Sam MIGHT (bobby's letter) do and I'm tired of it. Sam is allowed to make decisions for himself and having them contradict Dean does not make them bad or dark or wrong; except on this show it does. Until Sam goes to Rowena, he in fact hasn't done anything shady at all. And even when he does go to Rowena, it's still not shady, it's just not what Dean wants. I hate that what Dean wants is the only criteria for what is right on this show.

Dean however is keeping a whopper of a secret from Sam now isn't he? The Cain Prophesy. And Dean lies every time he looks at Sam and doesn't tell him. Why is that not wrong? Especially when what Sam is doing is not necessarily dangerous to Dean, but Dean's lies are completely and totally dangerous to Sam? And I know that people are going to say... "but it IS wrong." But that's not what the show is telling us at all. The show has not mentioned Sam's iminent death since it was first mentioned (Cas's either for that matter) and aide from one completely non specific dream (we dont know that Dean was dreaming about the prophecy, it could have been just generic Sam in peril) Dean has shown zero concern for that prophecy at all. It does not seem to be weighing on him; it is not made clear that he's thinking about it at all and he seems totally unconcerned. The morality on this show is whacked and Sam is continually treated like a moron who can't make a decision on his own. That is why I am in terror that Sam will get screwed on this thus negating his character as a functioning adult forever. Dean will be confirmed right once more. Like he was about Benny, about the demon blood, Amelia, not looking, the possession, the aftermath of that etc....etc.. etc....
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 04:48
Couple questions. When Sam did not burn Isabellas journal in PIB, do you think he has kept it. I wonder what information he may have gleaned from that which we don't know about. She was a witch afterall., right?

That got me to thinking about what Rowena said about the Grand Coven recognizing 3 types of witches in the world. (Like Rowena cares what they recognize - especially now with the Coven supposedly so weakened). These are:

First: Most common are the Borrowers, those who harness the power of a demon in order to practice their art.

Second: The Naturals who are born with the gift. Like Rowena.

Third: The Students. No natural ability who with enough practice and training and a Grand Coven approved mentor to show them the path, can eke out a modicum of witchly power.

Interesting about the harnessing the power of a demon line. What if Sam being a Borrower tries to harness MOC/DemonDeans power somehow to save him? Or Rowena does. What was that spell from earlier? To bind and to purge? What if she binds the MOC/DemonDean half but purges the good Dean? Or purges the DemonDean but binds the MOC half? Then I keep coming back to the possibility that Sam is actually a Natural just unaware of his power. Do I want this? No, I'd rather we see Sammy stay human for a change but it's something to ponder. Maybe Rowena will take him on as a student and then find out Sams a lot more of a handful/powerfu l than she realized? Kinda like DemonDean was for Crowley. And what about Magnus? With all his spell work and knowledge, could he have been a Warlock? Either that or he got his hands on some of that Grand Coven stash... I still wonder if he is alive and kicking...

Just some thoughts I had kicking around in my head. The bind and purge and that nifty little spell of mind control Magnus used on Dean in particular... how is that not going to rear it's ugly little head sometime?
Jen
# Jen 2015-04-16 07:15
Now I'm over the excitment of another great SPN and now I've had a second look. The Book of the Damned has set up what looks to be a interesting S11 We all know they are finishing the Myth Arc of the MOC this season so now I believe they have sorted out S11 There is many unresolved stories here. 1. Mr Stein, well his family will definantly come looking for that bk - Which will do more bad than good !!!! gulp They won't the bk not Charlie
2. I think the way the promos look Dean will find out about Sam & Rowenna in The Werther Report. I think Rowenna is leading Sam to the magic box which holds the curse that puts the bros in danger. Dean needs to save Sam so he will find out about the 2 of then working together, and SH--------- will hit the fan
3. Cas's mission is to save Dean and fix up his mess with Claire and her Mum. and Metatron and the demon tablet
4. Sadly Sam will go all the way to save Dean - these 2 never learn NO GOOD COMES FROM BAD. If this bk is not eliminated soon and Rowenna deciphers it there is gonna be BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA and I'm worried about that.
As I said in my above comment I wish they could end the season on a half bad note - no brother deaths no brother going dark just a ending where the drama is focused else where.
With the gossip going around and the supposed leaks and hints everywhere it looks like death is in the last ep. That doesn't mean a death. I think the bk of the Damned will stay with Rowenna for now something to sort out in season 11 Sam will ask Death to get Lucy out Sam will have to be Lucifer's vessel - a deal will be made YUK - They will cure Dean and then Sam will be stuck being Lucifer's meat suit till they can find a way to save Sam and around and around we go BLAHHHHHHHHHHH
Russ
# Russ 2015-04-16 07:57
:(

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyU1a4c1Tdk[/video]
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 08:10
OK Russ. You'll have to elaborate. I don't know if one of your gripes was the score, but I actually thought it was kind of weird and annoying.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 08:51
your last two comments are PRICELESS.
did not care for this episode me thinks. :):):):)

sorry this one and ''paint it black'' ;););)
E
# E 2015-04-16 20:53
Heh... how do you feel Russ? I mean don't hold back....let us in on the nitty gritty of your opinion! I'm going to risk going out on a limb and guess that maybe you didn't like this episode? Epic. :D
Russ
# Russ 2015-04-17 13:26
This for samandean10, NOLANOLA, and E ... Note to any and all that read this, it will contain Language some would deem colourful, or highly offensive.

I liked a decent amount of this episode, but what I disliked, a absolutely loathed. This was a perfect example of a good idea, mired with nonsense.

I don't have Alice's writing skills (or that of any other contributors to this site), so I'll keep it simple and break it down scene by scene, as I re-watch.

Opening scene: Charlie in a dark alley. - Looks like "Arrow". Supernatural shouldn't look like Arrow, because Arrow looks like studio sets with retarded lighting. Supernatural use to look real, now it looks like a TV show pretending to look real (more on that nonsense later).

So ... someone's following Charlie, but she doesn't know who. She's removes her hood to reveal herself, and show she's scared. Baddie opens a bin, and she lunges, stabbing homie through the jaw, like a ninja with no hesitation - killing him - then adds insult to injury, and does a flying sidekick as she jumps out the dumpster to knock him down. Then, oh yes, she ninja's her way out of situation with baddie # two, buy slicing his thumb/palm to knock the gun out of his hand. Charlie the Super Ninja.

Oh, wait. What if that was Sam & Dean looking for you, as you killed indiscriminatel y? Or just a dude dumping a nights worth of rubbish from his restaurant?

Oz adventures be damned, since when the f***ing f***, does Charlie just randomly stab an unknown dude through the jaw up into his brain? Oh and then, as she's running away from the guy she didn't kill for whatever reason, she runs (like a girl), and girly cries as she gets shot. Not so much the Super Ninja.

This is 3 minutes and 19 seconds in to the episode, and that includes the "previously on".

Next scene: Metatron and Cas in the car. When Metatron is the best written character of season 10, you know you go problems.

Oh wait, Sam is unnecessarily hiding the fact he's talking to Cas on the phone from Dean.. Why the need for the "wrong number" bullshit? Why not say to Dean, "that was Cas, he's still trying to find some info, but has had no luck".?

The forced friction between Sam and Dean has reached retarded proportions.

... and then the Charlie phone call! The book finding exposition was face-slapping.

I can't go on. I'm only 10 minutes and 20 seconds into the episode, and all I want to do is snap-kick my TV ... and I know the episode only gets worse.


Edited: Tidied up the language a bit.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-17 15:04
I strongly DISAGREE, you should write an article. I have already told njspnfan he should as well.
You sure you are not a COMEDY WRITER......
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
[ I see your comments on ign. ]
Russ
# Russ 2015-04-17 23:15
What's ign?

Edit: Just Googled it. I've never posted there.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-17 23:33
must be another Russ who has your writing style.
:D:D:D:D:D:D;); ););););););)
Russ
# Russ 2015-04-18 01:11
The Russ's are funny. I repeat. The Russ's are funny!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 14:26
That's why you need to write the rest of your review!
Russ
# Russ 2015-04-19 03:35
I'm trying to, but it means I have to re-watch the episode, and that's become a harder task with every viewing, as I continue to find things to add to the shit-list.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 09:47
I feel your pain, but somehow you must soldier on. I just know you will have some particularly entertaining observations about the Charlie "it's so very sad to be a hunter" speech and about that last fight scene in the cabin.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-19 12:00
funny you should say that, I cant keep an episode
on dvr for more than 2 days then DELETE. smmfh
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-17 15:56
NOLANOLA is right, you should write comedy. I start laughing as soon as I see your name on a comment. I agree with everything you said so far. I loved parts of the episode and hated parts, including the parts you just referred to. I absolutely despised everything about the opener with Charlie. Please finish your review!! My favorite line so far is

Quote:
she runs (like a girl), and girly cries as she gets shot. Not so much the Super Ninja.
E
# E 2015-04-17 18:50
I agree with the others. I'd read every review you write. Your take on Charlie is hysterical and unfortunately dead on. As I said on another thread (or possibly this one) she looked about as realistically threatening as a moth; frail and fluttery. What is the big deal with leaving her a geek and bad fighter? Why couldnt' get bumble her way through on gumption and luck? That would be FAR more believable. And yeah, wasn't Charlie crying recently about not wanting to kill cause it's bad? Now she's all stabity stab! Blarg is DEAD (a tribute to Nate). So I agree, there were some lovely things about this episode and Metatron WAS absolutely the standout character. But Charlie... there aren't words for the epic levels of moronic I am seeing.
Russ
# Russ 2015-04-18 01:30
You're right about Charlie. I see the same thing. She's not threatening. She's not Jo, and there's no need for her to be. Never been the biggest Charlie fan, but her intellect, geekisms, and daintiness weren't bad thing, and there was nothing wrong with keeping her that way. She can still be a strong female character without having to turn her into Chuck Norris (though one of her fake names should totally be Charlie Norris, just so Dean can make that connection. He'd be pleased with himself).

I realise it's a show about the supernatural, and all manner of weird shit happens, but there still has to be tracks of logic within that created universe. The "new" Charlie does not fit into that scope. It's just bad writing.
eilf
# eilf 2015-04-18 06:53
When the Bogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Charlie Norris.

Charlie Norris doesn't dial the wrong number, you pick up the wrong phone.

Charlie Norris doesn't have good aim. Her bullets just know better than to miss.

Charlie Norris doesn't read books. She stares them down until she gets the information she wants.

Death once had a near-Charlie-No rris experience.
E
# E 2015-04-18 09:20
HAH!!! Eilf.. you funny. Charlie Norris. Every time I see that character and she does something ridiculous I'm going to call her Charlie Norris.
E
# E 2015-04-18 09:24
I couldn't buy Jo as a much of a fighter either, but at least Jo was scrappy... she looks like a scratcher/biter . But apologies to Felica Day, but she looks so soft and weak; she doesn't stand up straight, her shoulders are slouched, she TINY. It was pretty clear that the editing department had a huge job to make those fight scenes look even remotely credible, which they didn't actually. The realistic grit of the early years where one of the boys is leveled by a single punch are looooooong gone. It's not horror any more, it's fantasy.
E
# E 2015-04-19 12:58
Russ, I just have to say that I've watched your "no, no, no" video like ten times at least. I get the sense that Bruce Willis is barely holding it together in that scene. That video is now my mantra when I read or see anything to do with Sam that is unjustified, ridiculous or dismissive. No, no, NO.... hell no... I refuse, no, no.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 07:58
I had a love/hate relationship with this one. Overall I thought it was good, but with some huge caveats. I don't think it flowed as well as Inside Man. There was too much clunky exposition. I need to watch it again because I have no idea what Charlie said about how/why the Book was created and why the Stynes have it. Dean also blitzed through his revelations about the Stynes and it seemed very jumbled as to who that family really is and why they want the Book.

The part I loved the most is that it was reminiscent of a National Geographic episode: I felt like I was being given a glimpse of the rarest and most elusive creature of all--the Sam POV. And it was GLORIOUS! Oh my God, a look into Sam's thoughts! All I could think was, is that so difficult writers? When he first started speaking I thought it would be the usual truncated Sam speech where he says something ambiguous and then stops talking. I think I was actually holding my breath as sentence followed upon sentence. Dang, his speech was almost as long as Charlie's! I did find it interesting that, at the end of Season 8 Sam could still see a light at the end of the tunnel, but now he apparently loves the tunnel. But I just loved the way he described the evolution of his feelings (What?!!!! Sam has feelings?) Hopefully that isn't the only Sam POV for the next year and a half, because that's about as long as it's been since the last time we got some insight into his thoughts. The only thing marring that scene was that I also had to sit through Charlie's meditations on the hunter's life. And I wasn't thrilled that Sam's summary of the events of Season 9 was that Dean did something Sam "didn't want him to do"--boy is that putting it mildly--and Sam said something that "hurt Dean." But I will not rehash everything that I hated about Season 9.

I absolutely hated the new "hunter to the nth power" Charlie. I like how AlyCat described it:

Quote:
Yes she did with the ninja skills and the never seen anything like it (in my very short time as a Hunter), not to mention sewing up her wound and asking the brothers if they know dental floss is good for sewing up wounds... they've only done it their entire life
It's very convenient that Oz is such a magical place that it transformed Charlie into super hunter. Now she can be superior to Sam and Dean in every aspect of their lives! The whole first scene of the show annoyed me. Itty bitty wittle Charlie takes on and almost beats two big, tough evil guys, while for two years we've been treated to big tough Sam being knocked around and tied up by pretty much everyone--not buying it. To get all of my Charlie gripes out of the way, I cannot stand the "bitches" salutation, and we had 2 or 3 of them in this episode. And Charlie waking up and saying "merry Christmas" wasn't funny the first time we saw it in Slumber Party and was equally annoying now. Charlie is now on record as loving both Dean and Cas but not poor Sam. Finally, get her out of the bunker! If they have Charlie move into the bunker I will be beside myself. They really seem to be setting Charlie up as being a series regular/recurri ng hunter on the show, or setting her up for a spinoff. I pray it's the latter.

As far as Sam and Dean, I loved the scene between them in the car. They seemed more like their old selves than they have in awhile, and it had me really hoping they wrap up the MOC arc soon so we can have more scenes where they look like they're enjoying each others company, and Dean actually shows some affection for Sam. Of course, then they had to go and throw the Purge thing into Sam's face. That would have been fine if Sam had then said something like "well, I thought you'd be OK with me doing whatever I need to do to save you, even if it goes against everything you believe in." Oops, sorry. Rehashing season 9 again.

Moving on to Cas and Metatron, again it's a love/hate thing. I really enjoyed "human" Metatron. I thought he was hilarious, except for the completely unnecessary reference to bodily functions. But I also loved Cas punching him in the face. I'm really loving forceful Cas. The whole scene with the Cupid seemed forced and weird. Not sure what the point of it was. But what I hated was how dumb Cas was at the library. He knows better than ANYONE how smart and devious and untrustworthy Metatron is, so he should never have taken his eyes off him. Hell, it was a spell that Metatron fooled him with in the first place. But I LOVED seeing Cas be restored to himself. Great scene. But why were his wings crispy? He didn't fall like the other angels and have his wings burned off? I know the writer did it so Cas can't be both powerful and able to flit anywhere in an instant, but an explanation would be nice.

Finally, I can't decide how I feel about the last scene. Oddly, I had just been complaining to my daughter about the almost complete lack of classic rock tunes and here we have one. Is Sam the "bad man?' Sure seems like that's where it's headed. Am I intrigued? Yep. Will I be ticked off if Sam does something foolish that creates a disastrous situation for everyone without actually getting rid of the MOC? Damn straight. One final note- I agree with other posters who complained about spoilers in the pre-episode pictures. I wish I hadn't known who Sam was talking to at the end because I would have thought it was Crowley. In fact my son, who knew nothing about the episode, was saying "it's Crowley!" If they're going to set up a scene that's going to have a big reveal, why spoil it for everyone by giving it away in the pics? This is one that I really need to re-watch.
Shante
# Shante 2015-04-16 10:00
hi there, i just wanted to say i counted 5 episodes of Dean leaving Sam chatting with guest star and 23 eps of Sam Disappearing so Dean talks to guest star. if this continues, i will add to it
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 15:57
Are those numbers just from the Carver years? I can't believe there were even 5 where Dean disappeared. But the disparity is pretty unbelievable, confirming everything I believe about the crappy way Sam has been treated by the writers these past few years. If you kept a list of those 5 episodes, I'd love to hear what they were. And thanks for doing this!
Shante
# Shante 2015-04-16 17:32
yes from season 8-10, Southern Comfort, Road Trip,( Sam,Possesed by Gadreel) ThinMan, Black Ask Jeeves. sure if you want anything else just ask
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 17:46
Thanks Shante!
Shante
# Shante 2015-04-16 22:43
:):) you're welcome
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-04-16 17:21
Not trying to change anyone's mind but I answer some that you pondered if that will help. Even though Charlie is not my thing I guess I am giving my neutral indifferent point of view without favoring any character on top another. She was actually ok in this episode. I give a lot of rope to the family and friends that the boys have because they need every last one of them. So here goes:

Quote:
Yes she did with the ninja skills and the never seen anything like it (in my very short time as a Hunter), not to mention sewing up her wound and asking the brothers if they know dental floss is good for sewing up wounds... they've only done it their entire life


I actually can't judge Charlie in my mind because we don't know what kind of world Oz is and she was there about a year. And the fighting skills seemed to be with the Evil!Charlie and she was made whole on the episode before this. I mean OZ clearly runs different than the real world so her training or spell etc. might have been just good enough to survive in real world as a hunter. They had a war there and in LARP episode she also used tactics. So taking down the first guy was a surprise but she got shot from the second. Whole phone booth she babbled like in shock and I think she was more asking the boys even if it wasn't a question is dental floss good to put stitches on a wound. Anyway, moving on.

The Christmas dream wake up thing came from her view of her personal heaven, pit stop, what ever it was and she was spending Christmas with her family. So, in explanation it doesn't bother me that much nor the greeting she does. It is just her thing. And in my eyes Charlie was not superior to the boys here. She was a hunter with them. :)

I loved the Sam and Charlie talk. I guess the adventure where she can get killed is not looking that great but also in that scene I didn't see her lay blame on either one and she gave it in short as in short without details s9 went like that. She helped Sam talk and when it got too much to him she said she gets it. You know, not wanting to make/see Sam cry. Anyway, I loved that Charlie was there to listen to Sam.

Also the Purge thing, don't want to go to that discussion but it is clear Dean lashed out, Just on that moment he had found out that really badass family in Abaddon badness level wanted the book that made him want to do evil just when he had hope for a cure. Dean is not good showing he is afraid with other bad feelings he was feeling at that moment and Sam and Charlie was pushing the thing that made him feel those things so he wanted Sam to back off. Charlie had already. It wasn't right and he did lash out and Sam tried to answer but Dean evacuated the building.

On angel wings... Well, Cas did fall before all the other angels to the ground but I saw the spell that it was more relevant that Metatron closed heaven from angels. That means all angels (graces) lost the ability to blink, fly what ever you call it. That means clipped wings and Castiel is no different. Anyway, of course it has been shown to us that none of the angels have wings, it hasn't been said but in my point of view it is pretty clear the minute heaven was closed.

I don't usually write how I see somethings to what people comment about because they go to directions and discussions I don't feel comfortable with and also writing them usually doesn't matter. I guess I came out of my lurking for this episode for some reason. So sorry for the thoughts beforehand. :)

- Lilah
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 17:32
Maybe they'll explain the wings thing someday, but if not, and if your theory is correct, does that mean that Michael's and Lucifer's wings will also be burned if and when they get out of the cage? Wouldn't that be funny if two of the most powerful creatures in the universe have to drive, or take public transportation, to their next death match.

In terms of the Charlie/Sam talk, while I loved hearing some Sam POV, I would have infinitely preferred that he have that conversation with Dean, or Cas, or even Jody. He just doesn't seem that close to Charlie that he would confide in her. Also, I can't stand her! :):):)
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-16 17:57
Lucifer on phone: "No Michael I can't come fight you to the death"
Michael: "Why not?!"
Lucifer: "I haven't got change for the bus..."
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 18:19
:):)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-04-16 17:57
Oh, I agree on that that Sam and Dean should talk. Like now. I would lock them into a room with no escape until they would have talked like half a year about all the stuff that has been going on. I mean both Idjits love one another... Yeeeees, even I get frustrated on some things. ;)

Well, can't remember for sure but Metatron did have his wings right but he was protected by the angel tablet or it's powers or what not. Archangels and the scribe of god are the most powerful angels so that would be interesting to find out. But for now it includes all angels and only archangel that might show this to us is the "maybe" alive Gabriel. I still don't see Lucifer nor Michael ever getting out. So it is probably what will happen now that I said it. :D

- Lilah
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-16 08:30
Something else confused me in this episode; when Castiel got his grace back this episode, his wings were shown as damaged. He didn't fall; Metatron took his grace to use in a spell to cast the other angels out of heaven. After taking his grace, Metatron sent Castiel to earth without his grace. It's one thing to butcher canon from earlier seasons, but now they can't even keep the Carver era canon straight? Sigh.....
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 08:48
THIS is why I must read your comments.
I KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE.
Great catch, oh wise one. ;)
E
# E 2015-04-16 09:16
That's a good question and one I pondered myself. Still though, when the fall happened it was implied that all the angels lost their wings, including the angels that were already on earth. None of them could fly any more after the spell. So maybe when the gates closed it somehow severed all the wings on all the angels, not just the ones that physically fell. Not explained well (or at all) by the show, but that was my rationale anyway.
st50
# st50 2015-04-16 13:56
I screamed "NO!" at that one, too, njspnfan.
Another fail for me.
E
# E 2015-04-16 09:10
I agree with njspnfan and samandean10... it was a love hate thing for me too. I appreciated how quickly this episode moved and how well the two stories were interwoven and I loved the resolution to Cas's all but forgotten stolen grace story line... it's about time. I also loved Metatron... from his orgasmic enjoyment of the waffles to his remaining a devious, untrustworthy little cockroach to the end. For me he was the best thing about this episode... followed closely by the rarest of rare glimpses into Sam's POV. This was very welcome, but couldn't be my favorite moments because what they did with Sam's POV. Like njspnfan said, the writers really wanted to make it completely clear that Sam was absolutely in the wrong about the whole possession arc and they did so by completely ignoring all of Dean's actions to focus only on Sam's words and Dean's epic oceans of unending manpain. *sigh* I think that there must be a new motto on this show; Dean Winchester must never be made to look bad or to make a wrong choice; anything that goes wrong on this show must be pinned on Sam to maintain the snowy white integrity of Saint Dean's image. That has to have been a pretty tall order these days what with him being a demon and all, but somehow and against all odd and story logic they've managed. I am so sick of Sam being made to be wrong about everything and Dean throwing it all back in his face continually. I have no problem with Sam going to Rowena over this. Dean is the one who's own words demand that Sam do something extreme, so Sam is going to do it. And I basically have no doubt that it will all blow up in Sam's face in a spectacular fashion because that is what they always do with Sam. But the ONE THING I do not want, the one thing that will make me stop watching this show is if what Sam ends up doing with Rowena ultimately makes Dean's situation even worse somehow. If that happens then I am done. If Sam's actions cause Sam pain and suffering and even death then fine, but it better not make even more trouble for Dean or cause Dean pain because then Sam will be ruined; forever labeled as the brother can never do the right thing or make the right decision and only serves to make life impossible for Dean. Sam will become that millstone that Dark Charlie said he was. If that happens I am done.
lala2
# lala2 2015-04-16 10:25
E, I think you should prepare yourself for your worst nightmare happening. I'm sure whatever Sam does will lead to something horrible for Dean. Now, you know it's not a Carver season until Sam is thrown under the bus! Haha!

I didn't love this episode or hate it. It was just okay to me. I do disagree w/you about Sam going to Rowena though. I do have a problem w/that but my problem w/that directly relates to my problem w/the MOC story. IMO, the writers have not set up this MOC story well at all. Dean is perfectly fine, IMO. I see no drastic changes in him or his behavior. He is not randomly killing innocent people or even bad people. He is not in a blood lust. He is not raging at everyone. He's not fighting a desire to kill Sam. He is not doing anything. He is perfectly fine, so what is the urgency w/removing the Mark? Why are Sam and Cas so determined to get rid of it now? I understand it needs to go, but why is Sam so desperate that he goes to Rowena for help? I don't think the show was established a basis for the urgency Sam/Cas have w/r/t this Mark.

When Dean was bound and determined to get Sam's soul back, that made sense. Sam had killed innocent people. He was planning to kill Bobby. He was a loose cannon and very unpredictable. MOC!Dean is just Dean. There is nothing different about him, so to see Sam going to Rowena makes no sense to me. If Dean were actually going crazy, then Sam going to Rowena would make more sense but now, he just seems stupid! He's trusting someone he shouldn't and for what? B/c Dean has some nightmares? Ohhh . . . the horror.

This MOC story is a complete and utter failure to me.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2015-04-16 16:37
although I do agree the MOC story line has been listless, I don't agree that finding the cure is less important than the soulless Sam deal. Yes, Sam was "bad" but as a last resort his body could be killed. This is terrible and I was totally ok with Dean's deal with Death to save his brother from hell. Now, however, Dean can't be killed. He will eventually become a monster. The solution is to cure him (or lift the curse). There was no way Sam was going to let go of that book and they have both trusted the shady and dangerous and made deals with worse.
lala2
# lala2 2015-04-19 14:55
Oh, I'm not saying it's less important than curing Soulless!Sam. I'm saying it's less urgent. When SS was running around killing innocent people or planning the deaths of friends, it made complete sense for Dean to take the drastic step of "killing" himself so he could meet w/Death and see if Death could retrieve Sam's soul. SS couldn't just be left alone; they had to do something about him. We saw that when he allowed Dean to get bitten by that vampire, when he confessed to killing innocents in the line of duty and not caring, when he plotted to kill Bobby, when he encouraged Dean to shoot that woman and her son who were complete innocents, when he beat up that cop, when he set up Roy as bait . . . . all of those acts gave us reasons to understand why Dean was taking the drastic action he took and why SS needed to go.

We have not seen the same w/Dean. Aside from beating up and killing some murderers, rapists, and human traffickers, the show has not, IMO, given me one reason to worry about Dean or to be concerned for him w/r/t this Mark. And I must say I was not at all troubled by Dean's actions before the Christmas break. I don't see the Mark as having any impact on him at all. Yes, it must go, but if Dean were to keep it for a season or two, how bad would it really be? The writers don't seem willing to actually show Dean doing anything remotely bad or controversial so this whole MOC thing has been a complete and utter joke, IMO.

So, in light of Dean being fine, I'm not sure why Sam would turn to Rowena. To me, he would only do that if he were desperate, and I see no reason for him to feel that way at this point in the story. When Sam tells Cas about how bad off Dean is, I honestly feel confused. I'm just not seeing a reason for the worry or concern.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 15:22
I don't know, lala2, Dean's talk about going to the beach and feeling sand between their toes sounds like the talk of a man totally on edge, about to snap, a veritable powder keg! There could be glass in that sand, or jelly fish in the water, and they might get a severe sunburn.:) As you can gather, I too see no sense of urgency about the MOC. After Sam said Dean was getting worse, I really thought we'd actually see evidence of that. Maybe the evidence is so subtle that I missed it. And as Dean himself said, as a temporary measure they could lock him up somewhere while still trying to figure out a cure that wouldn't unleash all kinds of hell.
lala2
# lala2 2015-04-19 15:38
Haha :)

Love your sarcasm, SamandDean10! I'm glad I'm not the only one not moved by the MOC story. It's been awful, IMO. Very lackluster and boring. I only wish Dean was doing half the stuff Metatron and Cain claimed he would be doing b/c then I might be entertained but so far he's done nothing. As you said, they could just lock him down some place until they get the cure.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 18:31
C'mon now, those jellyfish can be pretty stingy!!! And Sam would have to pee on it!

I think it might help Dean if they, I dunno, supported him instead of treating him like he's a leperous timebomb set to go off at any time. MOC/Dean hasn't hurt anyone on the side of good. There's a strange moral code in play that's more black and white than gray.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 18:46
Hmm, Hell House Sam or peeing on a jellyfish sting Sam...I think I'll take the former, thank you very much.
E
# E 2015-04-16 20:54
As Russ says above... no. no... no! just no, hell no. NO, no, no.
E
# E 2015-04-16 21:15
Oh, and I also agree that the MoC has been a colossal failure. Ultimately I would have liked that story line to have been written better, developed faster, for them to have moved on by now (seriously, we will have had 35 episodes devoted to this snooze fest by the end of this season 35 )... pretty much anything but what we got which was a whole lot of nothing. So Dean's getting worse is he? How can we tell? He showed remarkable restraint in NOT killing those college kids (cause, you see that would have been wrong, they were under a spell... Dean might have looked BAD or EVIL or you know DEMOIC). And he also showed remarkable restraint in NOT killing Rowena; she's a witch after all, isn't that what the Winchesters do? kill supernatural beings? So he could have killed her and not even been influenced by the Mark. Carver has a terrible habit of TELLING us what we are supposed to be seeing and then not actually delivering on that in any way, shape or form. Suffice to say, I will be at 'quit the show' levels of pissed if Sam's darkside journey causes Dean to slip into eternal demonhood, or eternal pain or eternal death. Sam's already doomed to fail no matter what because Dean keeps changing the rules on him.
RT pretty much summed it up when he had Metatron scoff "Dean is FINE!" and I thought, truer words were never spoken.

Here's what I want. I want Sam to find out what Cain's prophecy is... to kill his brother and for Sam to kill himself. That would put an end to everything. Dean can't succumb to the mark or live Cain's life in reverse if Sam was already dead by his own hand. I would appreciate the poetic justice if Sam offed himself because Dean's practically demanded that Sam do it by throwing Sam's past comments back into his face continually and reiterating his incorrect belief that Sam won't save him. Sam pretty much doesn't have a choice any more. Dean won't believe in him unless he dies, only then will Sam be vindicated. But I fear that Sam is going to be vilified once again.
lala2
# lala2 2015-04-19 15:35
Oh, yes, I'm expecting Sam to be vilified. With Carver at the helm, that is, sadly, inevitable.

I really agree w/what you've written here. Carver is all tell and no show. We continue to hear about how awful the Mark is for Dean, but have yet to see how it is actually hurting Dean. How is it impacting his life? What is the story? I need more than a single nightmare or Dean laughing like he's on uppers to be become immersed in a story. I want to see this allegedly horrible, negative impact the Mark has on Dean. I don't want to just hear about it!

I'd be fine w/Sam killing himself, E. Someone has to do something remotely interesting this year. Why not let it be Sam?
E
# E 2015-04-19 16:45
Well if the MoC is only supposed to make someone supremely self-interested and unpleasantly dictatorial, then yes, Dean is in mortal danger. But didn't Cain make the comment that he was "the scourge of the earth" for a thousand years? Dean hasn't even been the scourge of demons as far as I can tell, and he's remarkably self contained for someone "on the edge" and "getting worse." Poor Jensen, after all the interesting things they've done with Sam (some good and some bad for the character, but usually interesting for Jared as an actor (with the exception of this year anyway)), THIS is what Jensen gets handed to him? This story isn't stretching his acting chops AT ALL. He basically gets to be surly with a side of morose and a bit of uncaring for desert. Yawn. It's so monochromatic and bland as he continually uses that clipped harsh delivery of all his lines. So not only is the story in and of itself not interesting (35 episodes of not interesting.... .35; can you believe that?) its had the added side affect of sucking the life out of every bit of affection I've ever felt for Dean. I basically haven't liked him since Carver took over and I cannot sympathize with him at all anymore. I had one tiny glimmer of sympathy in Executioner's Song because that was so well written and actually gave Dean something to face, something to fear and something to be in danger from that it worked for me. Then it's right back to status quo with no indication that that episode had ever happened. Now he's back to contradicting himself in what he wants and holding Sam accountable to his ever changing needs and I am back to not liking him or caring about the MoC.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 18:59
I actually really liked Dean in the second half of Season 8 and even the first half of Season 9. He still seemed like DEAN with all of his great and not so great qualities. I loved his relationship with Sam, especially at the end of Season 8, and I even loved desperate Dean who tricked Sam into accepting Gadreel. While I firmly believe that he should not have done it because it violated everything Sam wanted/believed in, Jensen really sold it the way Dean agonized over the decision, and even the way he grappled with it for the first half of Season 9, and felt so guilty about it because of how poor Sam thought there was something wrong with him. But ever since Road Trip, that Dean vanished and this new, not so lovable guy took his place. Just the way that Soulless Sam was Sam minus most of his best qualities, MOC Dean is that version of Dean, but without being nearly as interesting as Soulless Sam.
E
# E 2015-04-19 21:37
And without the obvious connection between his behavior now and the MoC. With Soulless Sam it was obvious; he was soulless, we knew that, and Sam and Dean discussed his soulessness and what it meant to the way Sam behaved on multiple occasions. With Dean it's not clear at all. Does the MoC steal ones ability to feel affection? For Cain it didn't; he found the love of his life in Collette at that time and did all manner of sacrificial things, gave up the blade and found his better self for her. He even continued to live that way for hundreds of years after her death just to honor her memory. Apparently it's not the same for Dean, but 'why' is completely muddled. The show has not really commented at all on Dean's change in behavior. No one has said; "he seems different," "he doesn't seem to care about anything any more" "he's so aloof now I can't tell what he's thinkings." Dean himself hasn't said anything like "this damned mark is like a buzzing in my brain, I can't concentrate, I can't think, hell half that time I can't even hear you talking to me Sam." If TPTB want us to believe that Dean's current behavior is because of the MoC then they need to tell us so, or at the very least imply it. There's been absolutely nothing at all; the show has not commented on Dean's changed behavior in any way. It's one of the reasons I am having trouble finding sympathy for Dean or connecting with his plight. If we knew his change in behavior was directly related to the blade, it would be easier to understand the changes we are seeing. But without context he's just coming across as completely self absorbed without any reason.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 22:02
That's a great point. The brothers did thoroughly discuss and analyze how the soullessness affected Sam, and tried to anticipate any problems that it might cause. But nobody has asked Dean, and he hasn't volunteered, how the MOC is affecting him on a day to day basis. It could go a long way to explaining why he's behaving as he is, unless, of course, it's not the cause of his behavior. Because you're right that Cain did not behave the way Dean is. Although maybe over the centuries Cain was able to resist some of the worse consequences of the MOC. But we don't know because silly Dean never asked Cain any of these excellent questions before taking on the MOC! There has been so little coherent explanation about the meaning and consequences of the MOC, which is a travesty for a story line that's consumed over 30 episodes and counting. Pretty poor story telling IMO.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 23:24
If you recall when Dean took on the MOC there wasn't much time to "chat", they were under siege by Abaddons demons. Remember - Crowley saying 'I count...' Dean replying 'Too many.' Not the greatest moment to hand over an instruction book, much less a Cliff Notes version. Neither Dean nor Crowley knew Cain was going to teleport them out immediately after, thereby erasing any chance for further questionong or transfer of information. Dean went to Cain looking for the First Blade, he had to decide quickly under a pressurecooker situation when he found out that the FB was useless without the MOC . He did what he thought needed to be done. We still don't know all there is to know about the FB/MOC. Did Cain offer it just for revenge on Abaddon? That's a pretty crappy reason to damn someone for all eternity because you couldn't get something done right or take care of your own problem. It certainly wasn't going to do Dean any favors. Did Cain do it just for lulz? Cause he's inherently evil? It made no sense. Cain had to know that ultimately the MOC would kill Dean if it wasn't fed. That ultimately Dean would become demonic. Why would Cain do that if he was supposed to be this "reformed" guy? I wonder if Dean hadn't been in the mindset he was if he would've recognized the situation for what it was - both Crowley and Cain. If his Hunter instincts were twitching, he sure was ignoring or oblivious to them...
E
# E 2015-04-20 07:57
They could have discussed it after. Dean could have looked for Cain to ask for more details at any point in the past 30 episodes; but he didn't. And that does not explain why Dean and anyone Dean has come into contact with haven't discussed it since. 30 episodes and counting of Dean acting like.....whatev er this is...the surliness, the eating, the leering at young girls half his age...his not caring about Sam at all....30 episodes that the characters could have mentioned something, made some connection between the way Dean is now and the mark on his arm. All we've had is two one line comments from Sam; "Dean's in trouble" (like we didn't know that already) and "he's getting worse" which we've seen no evidence of. Dean himself hasn't said much of anything at all about how the mark has changed him, except for a few meaningless and generic things that we also never see any evidence of. It's kind of sad really; there's Sam standing there in episode after episode doing nothing. You'd thing they could have at least allowed him to comment specifically on what Dean was doing, and why he was worried about it. A few generically worried looks is not enough to lay the ground work for that kind of subtext. And, it's boring with a capital B.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 16:08
Quote:
If Sam's actions cause Sam pain and suffering and even death then fine, but it better not make even more trouble for Dean or cause Dean pain because then Sam will be ruined; forever labeled as the brother can never do the right thing or make the right decision and only serves to make life impossible for Dean.
I don't know E, I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed. But I agree that a horrible outcome for Sam is infinitely preferable to any other result. Maybe then Dean, and the writers, will feel that Sam has "redeemed" himself for "all of the times" he's "let Dean down." Those are air quotes, by the way, because I think it's all horse shit.
E
# E 2015-04-16 09:18
Oh, and one other irksome thing... that angry cherub? Why was he angry again? because of the fall? Didn't Metatron say that Hannah was running as tight a ship as any angel ever had since God opened up the pearly gates? Even better than the archangels? So what was the cherub mad about again? MAKESNOSENSE!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 16:47
Maybe he was angry that he was forced to wear clothes. He certainly was a crankier cherub than the naked one from My Bloody Valentine.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-16 16:54
:) I am still wrapping my mind around cherubs being naked middle aged men.
E
# E 2015-04-17 07:50
Yes. It's a bit disturbing isn't it? Can you imagine That guy "fixing you up?" Ew. Bit of a creeper.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 04:58
The Cherubs are surly, repeat the Cherubs are surly...
YellowEyedSam
# YellowEyedSam 2015-04-16 09:57
I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who had a suspicion about Sam destroying the book. His expressions after raised even more suspicion. Never mind that though, what about the last scene with him and Rowena? Ohmygosh! Speaking of Rowena did anyone see the preview for next week? At 12 seconds in the video Sam looks awful. Did Rowena do something to him? I'm so excited :D
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2015-04-16 11:32
Won't Dean detect the book since he could feel it even in the lead-lined box? Sam will have to hide the book outside the bunker. Please don't hide it with the Witch, Sam!
E
# E 2015-04-18 20:34
They made the description of the curse box pretty detailed and obvious, so I am going with the idea that it negates it's affects; which should also negate Dean's objection IMO.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2015-04-16 16:08
I was very well entertained with this one. Not being the biggest Charlie fan I was pleasantly surprised that I enjoyed her here. There was a nice reveal from Sam but I do wish they would let him finish a complete sentence now and then. Dean proves he can hold a grudge with the best of them again. Although I heard the twitter uproar about Cas's wings, for me that was the most logical scenario. The spell Metatron used was to knock all angels out of heaven and I imagine it is still in force. If Cas had come back with full angel powers and wings - Then I would have needed more explanation. I did wonder if getting his grace back wouldn't negate the spell, but that didn't happen.
Metatron was creepy as usual, but I loved the way Cas handled him. When Dean was telling Sam to burn the book I was telling Dean to stop barking orders. Has he learned nothing?
I do agree they are giving too much away with the pictures and clips, it would have been nice to be surprised by Rowena. It pretty much meant from the beginning that Sam would be taking the book to her.
Although I've been disappointed in the treatment and silence of Sam for a while, I didn't see this as Dean was right and Sam will be wronger. I did like Happy optimistic Dean at the beginning. And Sam again revealing that he wouldn't be able to go on if he lost Dean again. The Song selection was interesting: Bad man, Sad man, hated and fated.
Could be Rowena will get her hands on the book for real and use it (for Evil of course). I try not to speculate where things are going, especially now that Carver has decided to "telescope" some of his story lines to S11. But I really hate the idea from some that Lucifer will be at all involved and I can't imagine Sam would think that anything good would come from that.
The Stein's were a bit cryptic, like the Thule I guess: a bit of the megalomaniac arch-enemy from comic books. That rubs me the wrong way since this is not a comic book. Maybe we'll hear from them again, maybe not.
But it was a quick hour packed with movement on all fronts so now I am ready for the final 5.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 16:45
Quote:
Dean proves he can hold a grudge with the best of them again
Excellent way to describe one of Dean's less endearing qualities!
Debbie
# Debbie 2015-04-16 19:50
here is a thought if Sam kills Crowley and Sam becomes the king of hell. Dean can stay being the Knights of hell and stay by Sam side at lease both brothers will be together
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 20:10
SPNFamily, I just read that the finale' is to be EPIC, like SWAN SONG epic.
I don't watch the con videos nor read every article/comment . Have you
all heard this. SWAN SONG was a completion of sorts. I hope we don't have
season 11 with nothing but trial spin-offs like Highlander did in s6.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-16 20:23
Where did you read that? Did they give any other hints?
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 20:31
thegeekiary.com , the last paragraph of the review for this episode.
written by BANDIT. [really that's her name :)]
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-17 09:20
Did you read the article......
It mentions ROWENA ACTOR saying its ''going there'' also.
thoughts.....
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-17 12:20
I did read the article. I think that based on how TPTB have run things and the events of the past few episodes, and the Rowena actress's statement that they're "going there" the following will happen:

1. Sam will screw up and make everything worse-this is what is being blatantly telegraphed by the writers. My one hope is that it's a massive misdirection and that Sam can be the hero for the first time since Swan Song..
2. Metatron and the demon tablet will come into play.
3. Either Sam or Dean will "die" or what passes for death in SPN
So here are my way out there guesses. A. Sam will in fact kill Crowley, and somehow (maybe through Metatron/the demon tablet?) Dean dies and becomes King of Hell. The problem with this scenario is that it sets up a tired retread of this whole season, i.e., Sam must save Dean. B. Sam kills Crowley, and through the demon tablet Metatron manipulates Dean into killing Sam, which cures Dean of the MOC. C. Sam kills Crowley and through trickery/a spell by Rowena he goes darkside, and Dean kills him. D. Metatron tells Sam that Dean is destined to kill him, and that is the only cure for the MOC, so Sam somehow manipulates/tri cks/compels Dean to kill him. This scenario allows Sam to be the hero, so it will never happen!
Well, that's all I got so far, I'll reassess after the next episode!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-17 13:48
hmmm... to me, "going there" would be the one unimaginable thing, at least in the pre-Carver era. And that would be fratricide; one of the brothers is going to kill the other one. Dean's death would be meaningless because he'd come back as a demon, a rehash of the end of S9/early S10, unless of course he was cured. But, my guess would be either that Sam goes dark side and Dean has no choice but to kill him, or Dean is consumed by the Mark of Cain and fulfills Cain's prophesy of Dean killing Sam. And, no matter how the writers approach this, even with a skewed or biased writing POV of which we have had quite a bit of (i.e. whitewashing of last season's possession), I can't see the show, or Dean, recovering from that.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-17 16:51
I don't know about that. Given the events of the last 2 years these writers are eminently capable of having Dean kill Sam, but somehow making it Sam's fault. After all, Dean is the teflon hero of this show.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-17 15:55
As a terrible, horrible person I'm going with as long as they don't make Sam irredeemable and 2) it's not Destiel, I will be relieved. I will note that I have run into theories about Sam that would make him irredeemable even to me. I suspect they are by people who really don't like Sam, but I realize the writers can screw up Sam's character more than they have already.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-17 16:21
I am sure "going there" is Dark/Evil Sam. I think if that happens I am sure it wouldn't be his choosing but as a consequence or side effect of his trying to save his brother. That wouldn't make him irredeemable in my eyes, can't speak for the Sam haters. I would NEVER see Sam as irredeemable (or Dean) just misguided in some of their choices they make in desperation. I don't think Dean would hold this against him either. Would he be pissed that Sam put himself in jeopardy to save him? Probably. Like Sam was when Dean made a deal with a crossroads demon. This is a pattern with them. I will eat my pet parakeet if they make Sam look irredeemable. The fans reaction is another thing entirely IMO.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-17 16:57
Quick, someone free Leah's parakeet before the final episode or he's a goner!!:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 05:04
Fly birdie, fly!!! We don't know what might happen but you need to look out for your own safety just in case Leah heats the oven and starts setting the table!!! Don't you dare make that poor little guy suffer for Sam or Deans shortcomings!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 14:59
I've been thinking Leah and I don't think the "going there" will mean Sam going dark, because they've already done that: Meg/Sam, demon blood Sam, Lucifer/Sam, Soulless Sam, Gadreel/Sam. And since we ended last year with Demon Dean, I assume they'll end this season with something very different, and there have been several iterations of Dark Sam. I really think someone will die, and as E once pointed out, it is Sam's turn! Personally, I would love Dark Sam as long as he first saves Dean. I think Jared does a phenomenal job of playing "bad."
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-18 15:31
Oh hell yes he does. I like the idea of it pretty well if it happens in some sacrificial way. A side effect or spell gone wrong. I don't think Sam would willingly go dark even for Dean. I'm not sure what "going there" means either. They have "gone" pretty much everywhere :) The thought of either brother killing the other just hurts my heart.Yeah I thought the Samfans, and well, pretty much the rest of us liked "bad" Sam but judging from some of the reactions I shouldn't generalize. If Sam did go bad the next season would be Dean throwing himself into reversing that. So nothing new about that ground. I guess my fears about Sam are from some (VERY unreliable) spoilers and my speculating skills (which suck). It does seem like the spectre of Sam going full-on dark has been hovering over the show from day 1 so "going there" got me concerned.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 18:43
Or Sam can go dark and off the rails with his new powers of witchcraft (and who doesn't want to see Meg/Sam dark again? Those scenes with Jo and during the attempted exorcism? Chilling.), while Dean goes full on DemonDean (who knows what the Hell is going to happen with the MOC) and that's how we go into Season 11 with both of the guys being bad, bad boys and Cas having to scramble around and figure out how to pull their collective butts out of this new fire. That way neither of them have to die and we are spared the ensuing heartbreak! ;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-18 21:55
There is no denying "bad" Sam is awesome. I am all for skipping the heartbreak. And yet the angst loving part of me wants it. I need therapy.:(
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 00:09
Oh honey, you will have alllllll kinds of company in the waiting room as we collectively wile away the time waiting for our own appointments!!! !!! 'Doc! I need help. Realllll bad!!!!' ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 00:44
Nah, Cas can kick back and put his feet up because I'm sure Charlie will be on the case. She can probably cure/save Sam and Dean AND take out the entire Styne family all in one episode---while simultaneously also figuring out who hacked Sony-was it really N. Korea, Charlie?:):p
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 02:21
Don't forget world hunger...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 21:03
Did you read that vague spoiler by Misha in two of the articles linked in the news? I won't be more specific in case you don't want to know, but it has me scratching my head. And it's true that they have gone pretty much everywhere. I just hope it's not that Dean goes full demon again, like King of hell Demon, because it would be only a slightly different version of this year. Curiouser and curiouser! Yes, dark Sam must first be heroic and self-sacrificin g, but then bring it on baby!
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-18 21:42
My head has all the spoilers bouncing off my brain walls at the moment. And with my skillful powers of deduction I am sure I have arrived at a completely wrong scenario for the finale. But that serves me well because I can get distracted by shiny objects and in the end still be surprised! My simplest hope is that Sam succeeds in being Dean's savior. There should be a payoff for Sam's efforts this year. This is not about me wanting Dean cured so much as wanting a win for Sam. Before all hell breaks loose. I have a feeling he will get that but as for the cost......
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 00:26
Oooo theres a butterfly! *runs off* *comes back*

Right there with you. There are so many ways this thing can go. I'm afraid we aren't going to get a save, or if it's a save it will be shortlived and reveal the true cost of the spell. I really don't see this ending well for all involved. Not even Crowley and you know how he feels about his 'Happy Endings with all possible entendres' intended'... I'm more nervous for the brothers this year - way more than last! Knowing Dean was going to turn into a demon, okay, being fairly certain he was, we we're all pretty much on to that. Like Crowley said 'you've been a demon, I've been a demon, Hell we've all been demons!' But this? This not knowing is torture! And just when you think you might be figuring it out, they throw in the book and this new group of characters... I'm stocking up on booze now, I've thrown away my shot glasses, I'm doing it Dean Winchester style straight from the bottle!
E
# E 2015-04-18 21:22
Maybe "going there" means that Dean finally succumbs to the mark and kills Crowley and Cas. That would be pretty shocking. And if the show has any interest in following it's own canon then Sam isn't in any real danger until both Crowley and Cas are dead. That would also mean that the MoC would head into ANOTHER year, which would not make me at all happy. Boy is that one story line that needs to end ASAP. Of course that leaves Sam and his supposed "dark journey" out of the mix and I for one would like to see Sam involved, although I dread what that might end up meaning.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-18 22:07
I DO like Dark Sam. I loved Soulless. I loved Sam possessed by Meg. But I am so sick of Sam the always wrong, must always be reprimanded by saintly Dean. If Dean had caught hell for what he did to Sam when he tricked Sam into being possessed in any way, I'd be up for Dark Sam. But no, we got Dean the loving brother, Sam the ungrateful brother and NOT ONE CHARACTER saying Dean was wrong in what he did. To compound the problem, the writers so hid Sam's POV that fans ended up saying he was just ungrateful and a bad, awful brother to poor saintly Dean. Then this year, what happened to Sam has been reduced, on screen, to doing something Sam "didn't like". You know, like cooking giving him meat instead of a salad. And Demon!Dean was the cuddliest, kindest most decent demon ever.

So I know that if Sam goes dark they will have him eating babies on screen and the only POV we will get is more of Dean's man pain about how hard it is for DEAN that Sam is so wrong, stupid, misguided and evil at his core that he did whatever dark thing Sam is going to do. I would LOVE Dark Sam if there was a hope in hell of ever getting a Dark Dean or at least an acknowledgement on screen by someone other than Sam who isn't evil, Rowena, a demon, Metatron or just a bad person that Sam isn't evil and that Dean's failures are as big as not bigger.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-18 22:57
This is one of my basic disagreements with some (most) of the unhappy Samfans here. I have never bought into the idea that Sam is portrayed or written as being evil. Never. Not in any season. Nor have I ever seen Dean as a perfect brother who never does any wrong. I think both of those things are extreme exaggerations of both characters. Who both fall somewhere between saint and sinner. They both TRY and do the right thing more often than not. Their bond with each other is both their biggest strength and biggest weakness IMO. I do agree the writing for Sam isn't always great. My only comment to your projected outcome is why not wait until it unfolds, if it does, before you pass judgement?
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-18 23:50
I'm still watching so I am waiting to see what actually happens. However, I disagree that the text treats both brothers equally. When Dean screws up, we get Cas telling him "you trusted the wrong angel" and when Dean leaves and Cas is alone with Sam, we get "you are the second biggest failure in the world". The one time Sam is actually asked about what happened between Sam and Dean, he gets cut short and told that "Dean did something you didn't like and Dean got hurt" making the problems equal with no acknowledgement that Dean violated Sam and Sam responded by telling Dean he couldn't trust him and that the violation broke the brotherly bond. Heck Dean has been told one of his acts will be to kill Crowley and that will be a BAD thing. Then in the previews we see Sam saying he will kill Crowley. The writers in interviews have already said that Sam is more of a monster than Dean as a freaking demon. The slant overwhelms me.

Yes, I exaggerated, I hope, the depths of what Sam will do to save Dean, OTOH they had Sam kill the nurse while her host was awake, so I don't think I'm too far off thinking that they are willing to show Sam doing truly morally disturbing things. At the same time they were very, very careful to show Dean killing only demons, singing bad karaoke and being a bad boyfriend to Anne Marie as his SOLE bad acts as a demon. So, the writers are very reluctant to take Dean too dark, while being willing to take Sam where many people can't forgive him. Admittedly I had just come from Tumblr where there are theories that Sam will in fact murder multiple children and when that doesn't work kill Crowley, then murder Cas for his Grace and Dean will be forced to kill Sam the way Cain was forced to kill Abel. Yes, haters will hate but the show has established that Sam will do evil and Dean's actions are always excused by every character.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-19 00:08
I meant to say Tumblr (I have twitter on the mind), now there's a place of rational thinking and accurate information :) I don't see Sam murdering children even in the worst case scenario.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 00:53
I was always intrigued by DemonDeans line to Sam in that bar the first time they meet back up - 'Why? You don't know what I've done. I might deserve it.' My mind instantly, naughtily flips to the triplet scene (Sorry. Sooooo not sorry) but then I get serious and wonder what else he might have been referring to? Especially when he warns Sam that he's 'doing everything not to come over there and rip your throat out. With my teeth.' Eeeep.

And I don't see Show taking Sam to a killing children low either. Tmblr. Theres a source of inspiration. No, not really.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 19:22
Leah, I just wanted to say I support what you said about Dean in your response down thread to Anonymous. I couldn't read many responses to you afterthat because of the ?hyperlink? which causes the type to run in one vertical line and is close to impossible to read and then it just disappears from view altogether. But I can imagine the responses you got after. Been there, done that, T shirt... There is a lot of Dean hate on this site and it can get annoying to read. It doesn't do any good to point it out or even try to defend the character because they don't want to hear it and it isn't going to change anyones minds any way. It becomes a giant "yes" fest so I just read and pass on without making any comment. I too love Sam but I don't see this sad sack, beatendown, unable to defend himself, put upon character, physically/ment ally abused by his big bro that they do. I see a compassionate, caring, strong, smart (most of the time ;)) Hunter trying to deal with what life has handed him, right or wrong. I don't see this miraculous blame that is always said to be attributed to Sam either but whatever. I'm not into constantly look backwards petting and stroking and never letting go past grievances or misteps taken by either of them. They've both done some horrendously, really stupid things and made some bad choices, why do people feel like they have to break out a scale to determine who did the most wrong to who? It's all subjective anyway.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-19 21:31
Thanks Alycat I do appreciate that. It is most definitely subjective. That's why I try and take the "this is how I see it" approach most times. :)
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-04-19 03:00
Opinions always loose me when they are so focused to one character and wishing and slandering (Sorry about the word. Don't know any other word how to put it. Speaking bad? Not favorable?) of any other character that is not the favorable one. (This is how I see what has been written many cases) Demon!Dean might not have been what people wanted but sorry, trying to kill Sam with a blunt hammer qualifies as big evil in my book but I agree I would have wanted to see Demon!Dean longer and well be more bad (Also because Jensen said he enjoyed to play him). And I don't get why people care what other fans say about their favorite character. Why does it matter even to them? Nobody can change my mind about the brothers and the show. I don't even bring which character I like into the discussion because I care both brothers, the other actors/actresse s of the show and the story. All I see is wishing what you want to happen to the show and the writers nor the show will never be able to do that perfectly (also that they would have about 1 million people to please too that might contradict what you want).

I agree with Leah that it seems to be a blessing to watch the show as we do so I agree what she said upwards. I don't keep the characters under a magnifying glass to fit only my opinion. And from a reader's point of view the same people are giving the same treatment to the other characters that they are saying their character is blamed for or seen like. Sometimes it feels like I like Sam better than those that I know actually likes him more than me (I like him a lot) and they say they defend him against what other people write by making him sound even worse themselves. They make him actually seem so bad that I have needed to defend him which well, I would call it ironic. That is at least my outside point of view of what I have read.

Recent is the Charlie thing. It has been gone now what two weeks already in the comments? The dislike has been pretty clear but now it is behind sarcasm and supposed humor. It is not funny anymore or never actually was because of the +50 character hate comments. I wonder which character gets the treatment next time and all the discussion will be taken over by that.

I really would like few people to see how I see Sam, Dean, quest stars, just you know... maybe make them feel better about it? That not all "the fans" hate their character which they seem to think every other fan does. Because of my view I try to understand every character and in all angles and it feels sometimes to be very bad spot to be.

This is not invalidating though the opinions because everyone's opinion does matter what ever it is and I agree they have some truth to them also (not the extreme ones), but to many fans like me the cubbeth has ran over. And by this I mean the diplomatic ones. It is not a discussion if I feel I need to do a hit and run to the comments and be exited elsewhere about the next episode even though I adore this site. The episodes are judged before they air (these assumptions has been proven wrong even after airing in some cases) by the preview material that is not meant to be nothing but a teaser and they are not even made with the same group that has done the episode usually. They are a teaser. Nothing more.

And yes. I am again afraid I am stepping on someone's toes with this comment that is not my intention. I would just like everyone be able to comment here and have discussion by feeling comfortable with one another. And also less jumping on each others throats.

I mean this is the most varied site there is. And that is good. :)

- Lilah
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-04-19 08:43
Quote:
Sometimes it feels like I like Sam better than those that I know actually likes him more than me
We do.More than you can imagine.You have to understand it is not the fans opinion about that bothers me it is the shows neglect when it comes to sam that bothers me.The thing is it bothers me and this is a place where can air that.I want better for Sam..and most of the time it FEELS like you people do not .What you say looks like excuse to shelter Dean from criticism .These are my feelings about how I see you.
When the show disregards what Sam said and only goes with what Dean thinks that is what is problamatic to me.If you do not have the same opinion I am not going to tell you what to think or come here tell you "why you do not care about Sam?".These are MY opinion and i hope there are people who share it..and I would like to share it with them.
I do not believe in telling my opinions about other fans here but since you said how you feel about us..I needed to tell how I felt too.This is not me one upping you or getting back at you.This is How I honest to god feel about you guys..but I never tell what you should comment or ask how you can comment that.
I hope I have not crossed any lines...but this is how I feel.
Lilah_Kane
# Lilah_Kane 2015-04-19 09:12
So me defending Sam and not wanting character hate that people seem to not like when it is like for example directed to Sam is me sheltering Dean from criticism? You know in Charlie's case there are a lot of people that like her out there. I know they exist and have seen them cheer in other sites like twitter etc. I wonder why not even one fan has come to this site to say in the comments how cool it is that she has been in the episode? Well, I can think of a one very good reason and I am not a Charlie fan myself.

Anyway, alright, yeah pulling out card "agree to disagree then", because I don't think this conversation will not go anywhere. But your opinion is noted.

- Lilah
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-04-19 09:55
Quote:
So me defending Sam and not wanting character hate that people seem to not like when it is like for example directed to Sam is me sheltering Dean from criticism?
No Lilah.It is not just about this one comment.It is not just you.Quote:
You know in Charlie's case there are a lot of people that like her out there. I know they exist and have seen them cheer in other sites like twitter etc.
I do not have twitter..but Charlie having fans is not something I find odd or unbelievable.It is Okay.Quote:
I wonder why not even one fan has come to this site to say in the comments how cool it is that she has been in the episode?
I do not know and the reason you can think is just that, your thought.If hate keeps fans out then sam fans would not been seen here now.We would have left the site long back.If I want to stay I will stay how much ever hate there is.
fans saying Sam said "I will not save you" and the show saying the same are different.I do not give much thought to what fans say but what the show puts forward and what it holds back (through sam and Dean and other supporting characters).Whe n it happens repeatedly It pains me and this is where I comment about it .
Then these comments not just in this article it has happened before..That we do not respect Jared?...No ...I have still not asked why you say such things about us or told you to stop.What I will do is reply to that points.We are told that somehow wanting more for jared (through Sam) is us disrespecting him...repeatedl y.
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-19 14:02
There is NO Sam hate here on this site anonymousN, none. Just because we don't see things in the same way doesn't mean we hate Sam. I for one have said repeatedly that Sam could be written better. He could have more POV. I just don't see him as epically abused by the writers and show as many of you do. Fair enough. As for the disrespecting of Jared, im my comments to you I was pointing out that we should be respecting what Jared himself wants AS AN ACTOR. And he has repeatedly indicated that he likes and is proud of this show. That is not the same as being disrespectful to Sam or Jared. We can hope and wish all we want that an actor leaves a show or his character gets killed but my only point is that is OUR problem as a fan, not what Jared wants. So it was respecting his wishes I was referring to and there is a difference. As for Dean fans, most of us here that are still left are very honest and realistic about his flaws and mistakes. That doesn't mean we want him always being characterized as abusive asshole brother to the absolute perfect Sam who has never done anything wrong in the history of the show. And that's how it comes across sometimes from some of you. I will say that as a person Sam has many more good qualities about him. No argument there. But he is not perfect and Dean isn't the complete abusive, mean, and total unfeeling jerk that some people like to say he is. He has many admirable qualities himself. But you wouldn't know it from following some of the posts on this site sometimes.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-04-19 14:34
Then it is a good thing I was not talking about now.Quote:
I just don't see him as epically abused by the writers and show as many of you do.
The problem is you have have problem with some of us having that view.Quote:
im my comments to you I was pointing out that we should be respecting what Jared himself wants AS AN ACTOR.
That does not mean I have to disregard what I have to say AS A FAN.Quote:
And he has repeatedly indicated that he likes and is proud of this show.
Jared is very good at PR.I know this fact.Quote:
That is not the same as being disrespectful to Sam or Jared.
As I said to Lilah this was not the only comment I was talking abt.and what we are saying is not disrespecting what he wants as an actor,It is wanting better opportunities.I think we can do that.So wanting more for sam is somehow disrespecting what jared wants? OK whatever.Quote:
But you wouldn't know it from following some of the posts on this site sometimes.
It is just that we do not like the show excusing Dean's action and putting the onus on Sam for Dean's action.If this is what constitutes an abusive asshole brother you are right Leah I do think Dean is an abusive asshole brother.
Quote:
and total unfeeling jerk that some people like to say he is.
you peddle that strawman.I do not have anything to reply for this.You are free think whatever about what we think or whatever you purport that we say.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 15:27
Hi LEAH! I just wanted to tell you that the Sam hate is real and fuelled by the poor writing of the show in recent years. True, thankfully I haven't seen any on this site for some time, but it can explain why some posters come across as very defensive. In my opinion no brother is perfect, both have flaws and both have good qualities, they're human and that is what allows us to relate to them.
I've never seen anyone say that Dean is "the complete abusive, mean, and total unfeeling jerk", to be honest, if you've seen the show, you know that is not true. But does the writing sometimes makes it look that way? Unfortunately, IMO yes, and that is down to the writers. I think for the most part that's what the posters who criticize Dean or Sam mean. It's like Sam's speech from The Purge, it could have been everything that Dean needed to hear, that would have allowed Dean to understand where Sam was coming from, it SHOULD have been that. But that's not what the writers wanted, I don't know why but they wanted Dean to feel like the victim, they wanted unresolved issues, conflict. It is this kind of OOC writing that obviously worked on some part of the audience, judging by the reactions, but had the opposite effect on another part of the audience. And in my opinion, it has done a great disservice to Dean as a character, but like I said it is down to the writing.
I hope you understood what I was trying to say, it's hard for me to express myself in a coherent way sometimes, cheers! :)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-19 15:53
Hi Kelly, no problem!:) I understand what you are saying and I am well aware there is Sam hate. Just not at this site, and I really do understand why some people have issues with the way Sam is written. I personally am not terribly defensive of Dean. He can be a jerk. I do jump in occasionally when it seems unduly unfair but not that often. There are few people left here who do. But he does take a beating here. Check the above post. This is not rare and even today there have been posts that express the same sentiments and numerous agreements to those posts. I am open to most all opinions if people are respectful. I agree that the writing has been bad for both Sam and Dean at times. You happen to catch me on a few days when I am venting a little. I am not prone to that. I am very reasonable and fair most time. But I do love BOTH Sam and Dean and we who do love Dean have feelings too. And I love Charlie also. which been a barrel of fun too.:D Ah well. I have been at this site for years so nothing new. I occasionally need to take a break to regain my perspective and I think I am due again.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 18:02
Don't worry, like I said earlier this is the first time I jumed in the conversation in a long time, but I've been following the articles on this site for a few years and your comments have always been respectful and balanced and pretty fair for both characters. What I meant is when it feels like someone is "bashing" Dean, and I speak for myself also in this case, it's not against him but it's the writing that we have a problem with. I love both brothers equally, and they both had been terribly OOC at times, but it has reached a point where I can't connect and relate to Dean as a character because of it. I want my old big brother Dean back that's all, he's been MIA for some time. Looking forward to your future posts, your thoughts and perspective on the episodes have always been interesting. Cheers;)
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-19 18:36
Thank you so much for your thoughts and perspective Kelly. I guess it just often reads ..." Sam's writing/pov is lacking" and BTW what an ass Dean is for pretty much everything his character has ever done to Sam. It all boils down to writing in the end and a big dose of our own personal ways of relating to the characters. They are both amazing characters to me. With a lot of scars and pain. Cheers back at you!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-20 08:10
Hi Leah. I wanted to reply to your post further down but it won't let me--too skinny! Anyway, I've been thinking about some of what you and other posters have said about the unhappy Sam fans, and I can understand some of your frustrations. You see this constant drumbeat of unhappiness about Sam's role and how he is written, and as sick as you are of reading it, I'm just as sick of feeling that way. But sometimes I get frustrated with posters who just don't see something that is clear as a bell to me. How can they not see the atrocity that has been the portrayal of Sam these past few years? So I thought of a brilliant (in my humble opinion) analogy. I call it "the soccer mom analogy." (I feel that it needed a title, being brilliant and all). All of my kids have played recreational soccer, and the official policy is that players get equal playing time, no matter how terrible they are. It's supposed to be fun for the kids, there are no big stakes involved whether you win or lose, and every parent is paying the same fee for their kids to play. But inevitably there are coaches who just want to WIN, so the playing time can get pretty skewed. The super stars play the whole game, the weaker players are lucky if they play half. I'm sure these coaches have some rationalization justifying it, but it's still wrong on every level. It's happened a couple of times that one of my kids was playing for such a coach. It seemed clear to me that my kid was getting shafted, but it can be hard to tell to what degree because kids are getting subbed in and out all the time. So I actually resorted to keeping track of exactly how much playing time my kid got so I could support my position when I very reasonably talked to the coach. So by now you're wondering what the hell this has to do with anything, so I'll FINALLY get to my point. We all view things like sports, TV shows, movies, books, etc through different prisms. During those soccer games my prism was my son's involvement, my eyes were constantly on him and what he was doing. Other parents had no idea if/when my son was playing, how much playing time he got, etc. They were focused on their child. The parents of the players who played a lot might sympathize with me, but they still enjoyed the game because their kid was out there playing and having a great time. I wasn't enjoying the game because my kid was being mistreated. When I watch SPN, I watch for two things primarily--the brothers and Sam. But since Sam is my favorite character I'm particularly aware of how his character is written. That's my prism. I've almost started keeping track of his screen time to prove to myself that he's getting shafted. And Shante is keeping track of some things that support my belief. Other viewers could care less. They might be Dean fans who don't care about, or even dislike, Sam, or bro fans, or fans who don't care about any of that but who just watch to be entertained and don't care particularly about any character. It just isn't as obvious to them that Sam's role has been diminished because it's not that important to them. Or maybe they notice it, but just don't care. But just as my son's treatment by the soccer coach was the most important thing to me, since that was the whole point in signing my son up, Sam's role on the show is that important to me. I simply can't truly enjoy the show if he isn't written the way a series co-star should be written--with substantial screen time, meaningful actions and dialogue, an important role in the overall story, and careful, consistent attention to his characterizatio n. That's what we got for many years, but it's been sorely lacking lately. So bottom line, I get why many fan either don't notice or don't care about Sam's role and are sick of hearing complaints about it. I'm hoping I've made it a little more understandable why I do care so much and why I am so frequently, and vocally, unhappy with the show lately.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 15:30
Hi LEAH! I just wanted to tell you that the Sam hate is real and fuelled by the poor writing of the show in recent years. True, thankfully I haven't seen any on this site for some time, but it can explain why some posters come across as very defensive. In my opinion no brother is perfect, both have flaws and both have good qualities, they're human and that is what allows us to relate to them.
I've never seen anyone say that Dean is "the complete abusive, mean, and total unfeeling jerk", to be honest, if you've seen the show, you know that is not true. But does the writing sometimes makes it look that way? Unfortunately, IMO yes, and that is down to the writers. I think for the most part that's what the posters who criticize Dean or Sam mean. It's like Sam's speech from The Purge, it could have been everything that Dean needed to hear, that would have allowed Dean to understand where Sam was coming from, it SHOULD have been that. But that's not what the writers wanted, I don't know why but they wanted Dean to feel like the victim, they wanted unresolved issues, conflict. It is this kind of OOC writing that obviously worked on some part of the audience, judging by the reactions, but had the opposite effect on another part of the audience. And in my opinion, it has done a great disservice to Dean as a character, but like I said it is down to the writing.
I hope you understood what I was trying to say, it's hard for me to express myself in a coherent way sometimes, cheers! :)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 00:38
Perfect description Leah. They are BOTH sinners and saints. They do what they do when a situation calls for it. Is it often the most intelligent? Hells no! We have Charlie for that! (Sorry, couldn't resist! ;)) But they have good hearts and love each other even though they don't always show it. They try to do what's right for the other, no matter how misguided, stubborn or boneheaded they each can be. Let's face it, they've both done their share of stupid, but that's why we love them! How boring would they be if they were right all the time, like Charlie?!? (Kidding! Put down your pitchforks and matches...) ;)
E
# E 2015-04-19 13:18
Yes Percy's, yes. I loved Dark Sam too; but I hate, loathe and despise 'Sam is wrong because we've changed the rules Sam,' or equally bad, 'Sam is wrong because it's not what Dean wants Sam.' Have you noticed that Dean continues to lie to Sam every time he looks him in the eyes and DOESN'T tell him that he's in mortal danger of being assassinated by Dean. But does the story dwell on that in any way? No. It's too busy telling us that what Sam MIGHT do is shady, dark and wrong. What exactly has Sam done that's wrong? I've seen lots of comments about the lies that Sam is telling, but I ask, what lies are those? That he's still looking for a cure? Dean KNOWS that... they talked about it in the Impala in the last episode. That he's going to go to Rowena for help? First of all, that's not bad and that's not dark it's just that Dean doesn't want him to. But on this show that makes Sam's actions a cardinal sin. And how is what Sam doing in any way different than Dean working with Crowley last year? None except that it was Dean, so that makes it right and OK. IMO Sam has a lot better reason to work with Rowena than Dean did working with Crowley. You know, Sam is really screwed this time isn't he? Dean is demanding out of one side of his mouth that Sam is NOT to do anything crazy on his behalf, even though Dean did something crazy on Sam's behalf last year. But in the same breath he's lambasting Sam for his words in the purge; "I know you wouldn't do the same for me," "oh, you've changed your mind on that have you?" making it imperative that Sam do something crazy simply to get Dean to prove to Dean that he matters to Sam. Poor Sam he's truly in an impossible, no win situation, the outcome of which will mean Dean get's to berate Sam about his actions into season 12 and beyond no matter which way he goes.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 18:34
I want to see a dark human Sam corrupted by magic. Nothing supernatural other than what he is doing. Kinda like Magnus... only much, much, sexier! And without the Zoo...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 21:04
I have been very intrigued by the possible Sam/witchcraft angle, but now that Charlie will be working with Rowena on the Book, maybe she becomes the witch- the BESTEST WITCH EVER, of course.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 00:55
Well of course she will have to be a Natural like Rowena!!!

Maybe Rowena will tire of her quickly and give the Head of the Grand Coven some company on that wee wheel!!!
E
# E 2015-04-19 13:29
Yes.... a leeetle, teeny, weeny red haired hamster with a leeetle, teeny, weeny sword on it's back running around and around on that wheel. Sounds good to me!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 15:28
If I had even an iota of artistic talent I would try to draw a picture of that because the image is very amusing. :D
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 18:49
Ferrrrrgus better be watching his step or he's going to end up on the wee wheel as well! Awwww and he'd have his wee little power suit on too!!! Now thars a picture for yu!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 19:07
I was enjoying your Scottish brogue until you said "thars." Sorry, but that sounds more like pirate talk. Get your accents straight AlyCat!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 23:35
1000 pardons!!! I got a wee bit too excited. I started channeling Jack Sparrow! Arg! Me bad! I got the "yu" right tho? No?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-20 08:16
OK you get points for the yu, so I'll overlook the thars.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 23:36
But the weeee suit! Can ye naught picture it?
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-20 08:49
Thank yu! Ha!!! But the wee little suit! Oh and with the wee little tie!!! Now I realllllllly want to see it. I'm so excited! C'mon writers! A wee Crowley in his wee little suit and tie running on the wee wheel!!! PICTURE IT!!! Ok, I'll quit now. I have to go NOT FEED MY LAWN!!! NOT FEED IT!!! Or should that be NAUGHT FEED IT!!! Ach, no.
E
# E 2015-04-16 21:29
A few more things occurred to me while ruminating on this episode today;
I agree with AlyCat that all the Charlie fight scenes were LUDICROUS. Super Secret Ninja Warrior skills out of the blue? Well seeing as she became a crack shot by playing video games, I guess she got her Ninja skills from reading Japanese comics. She looks about as threatening as a moth, all frail and fluttery. Her "fight" scenes were so heavily edited that they barely held together and were nearly unwatchable. And I don't care how long she was in OZ, NO ONE learns to fight like that in one year.... no.one. It's beyond improbable. I want this show to stay in the realm of realism and this is so far into fantasy land that I was embarrassed. It was like watching a fight scene on Charmed, where the girls are fighting in their heels and restrictive clothing, hair flying and looking completely absurd. This was THAT bad for me.

And HOW, may I ask, did Charlie get from Kansas to Italy, then to Spain and back to the US (Iowa, I believe) with that sword? She went through customs THREE times with that thing? Why does she have a sword anyway, what good is it? Is she supposed to be Arrow now? Or perhaps she's THE ONE. Ugh. just plain awful.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-16 21:33
Russia and Alaska too. :p:p
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-17 00:52
Nope. Michonne from The Walking Dead. Charlie is just that badass. Blerg!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-17 00:54
We explained this earlier E! She built AND piloted the plane. Pay attention!!! ;)
E
# E 2015-04-17 01:10
I think she also must have invented aviation
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-17 01:56
Hot air balloons?
E
# E 2015-04-17 05:56
She blew it up herself.
AlhCat22
# AlhCat22 2015-04-17 06:02
Obvs. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-17 12:23
You are all ignoring the most likely possibility: Chuck isn't God, Charlie is!
E
# E 2015-04-17 19:08
Insert Russ's 'no, no, no' video here.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 05:05
Shhhhh... we are trying to keep that under wraps until the series ends....
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-17 16:02
you made me think of the song 99 Red Luft Balloons :):):)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 05:07
Wasn't Charlie one of the lead singers? No? I could have sworn...
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-17 00:35
And more to the point, WHY was it a Cherub? Of everything it could've been.
Jen
# Jen 2015-04-17 02:09
Castiel didn't get his full wings back because he only got part of his Grace. I think over time as Cas grows stronger his wings will return in all their glory. Remember how damaged Gadriel's wings where he was still healing. You know how Cain said that Dean will have to kill his brother. And we have heard 2 whispers over the last couple of weeks about the final ep, 1. The boys Thats Sam & Dean !! Make a huge sacrifice to rid Dean of the MOC -a scarfice they have to both learn to live with 2. Deaths back in final ep. What if they have death raise Adam and Dean kills him instead of Sam. He is a brother after all
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-17 09:23
Interesting.....
ROWENA ACTOR says they are ''going there'' for the finale'
E
# E 2015-04-17 19:17
As I said before; Sam just needs to off himself and soon. If he kills himself then Dean can't fulfill his destiny and no more demon dean. AND Sam gets to be the hero for once and gets to act on his own terms and isnt't forced or tricked into hurting any one or doing something reprehenisble to his brother. Sam even said in this episode that he has no problem with dying even now. That is where I want this to go. Then Dean can see that Sam will in fact do anything for him including sacrificing his own life for the sake of his brother. I don't want Dean to kill Sam becuase they will end up making Dean look justified in doing so and I don't want Sam to kill Dean because the fandom will crucifiy him and he will never recover; he will be loathed forever as the evil brother who killed the hero of the show. He will never be seen as doing the right thing for Dean's sake no matter how they play it, but if they do the reverse Dean will come out of it just fine and Sam will still look like the villian.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-04-17 20:33
Unfortunately (or fortunately) Sam doesn't know what Cain said to Dean so he doesn't know that offing himself will save Dean. Otherwise he would just do it. Problem solved.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-17 22:38
But what if Metatron tells Sam just to screw with the boys? What if he learned the information from the demon tablet? Although I'm actually wondering why Metatron needs the tablet. Didn't he write all of the tablets, being God's scribe? He certainly knew what was in the angel tablet. Maybe the tablet itself bestows power, like the way he powered himself with the angel tablet. So if the demon tablet can make demons more powerful, that leads us to Crowley or Dean since at this point they're the only demons around. Sorry Cheryl, I'm clogging your thread by typing my thoughts as they occur to me. And my speculative juices just ran out.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 05:15
Hmmm... but to power the Demon tablet isn't Metatron going to need one of those old-timey wimey typewriters? Those things are hard to find... Wait!!! I have one, my dads old typewriter from his advertising business days... The E key sticks something terrible but if he nee- what am I saying!?! I'm sorry, I was mistaken. We sold that in a garage sale years ago. *breathes a sigh of relief*
E
# E 2015-04-18 09:14
There are worse things than the E key sticking :D:D
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-04-18 12:26
:)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 18:45
Ha!
E
# E 2015-04-18 09:13
You're right Cheryl Sam doesn't know about what Cain said or that offing himself will save Dean. Funny in an episode where Dean was being more honest than honest (obviously to showcase how "shady" Sam is being) that this little tidbit isn't even mentioned. Hmm. Yeah. So, more honest than honest Dean, who's being so "up front" with Sam about everything is holding back a doozie. But do the writers focus on that? No. Do they indicate in any way that Dean is hiding something? No. They are too busy showing us how DARK Sam is before he's actually done anything at all.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-18 05:10
If they do have Dean kill Sam I don't think he is going to come out of it as justified. Ow, it hurts just to think of either one of them taking the others life!!!
E
# E 2015-04-19 13:34
Actually I think Dean will end up just fine in that scenario. There was even a comment on another thread saying that if Dean had to kill Sam it would be for Sam's own good and done out of love.... in a total justification of the potential act. Besides TPTB are good at putting a "spin" on things in Dean's favor (the possession, the Amy killing etc..) so that's all they have to do here and Dean will be fine.
lala2
# lala2 2015-04-19 23:40
If Dean kills Sam, he will come out smelling like roses. Trust me. It will be completely understandable, and I'm sure the writers will show us Dean's journey to that difficult point. Now, if Sam were to kill Dean . . . . .
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-04-20 02:46
Dean already smells of roses it would literally be impossible now after a decade of the storytelling Dean has had to make him be seen as anything else but a tragic hero .

If Sam was to kill Dean ? that is a question that answers it,s self I think.
MK
# MK 2015-04-18 02:49
This episode didn’t work for me. I thought it was an absolute train wreck.

Re, the Charlie and Sam ‘discussion’, where Charlie made assumptions and Sam didn’t fill her in on any of the details. Sam has always been the master of understatement. Or else he just doesn’t want people to think poorly of Dean so he holds back details that might make them think that. Or he’s bought into Dean’s mentality that what Dean did to him was just no big deal. Either way, it’s disappointing but not surprising. I don't think anyone really expected the possession, lieing, gaslighting to be dealt with with any sort of gravitas. His speech to Charlie about how he loves hunting was just bizarre. Obviously, Sam’s life is just pure joy; the Cage, Lucifer, Dean dying, Jessica dying, parents dying, multiple dead lovers, soullessness, demon blood, visions, hallucinations, being possessed and lied to for half a season (and know it could happen again), Dean trying to kill him, Dean endorsing his death on numerous occasions, Dean bitching at him for trying to save his life, bitching at him for not bringing him back when he believed Dean was dead, bitching at him for believing he wouldn’t try to save his life. What’s not to love about Sam’s life?? It’s a life where he cannot win because the rules keep on changing. The last time we saw Sam actually laughing and seeming to take pleasure from life was when he was with Amelia. When he’s hunting he rarely smiles or seems to enjoy himself but now he ‘loves’ hunting. I guess he is now fully indoctrinated in the hunter lifestyle. Dictatorship works. Though I wonder if Dean wants out of hunting will Sam also have to leave.

In the hand of better writers, this could be used to indicate just how broken Sam is. He’s given up on life. Not on Deans but on his own. He doesn’t expect to get out and he knows he can’t get out, mainly because Dean doesn’t want him to so he has no choice but to ‘love’ it. He’s not allowed to die, there is no happy ending for him until someone one else dictates it. It’s strange because Sam has never even indicated that he likes hunting. He had only ever hunted alone when he was soulless, grieving or looking for revenge. He never got the pleasure from killing that Dean did. The Sam at the start of season 8 is long gone, no hope of college, no hope of love, no hope of a future, no hope of peace and safety, no hope of a life, at least not his own. It seems that while Dean got his fathers extreme dictatorial side, Sam got his single minded focus and all Sam has left to focus on is Dean and hunting. Everything else has been whittled away. He has learned how wrong it is to focus on anything else (himself included). Dean will be thrilled with this turnabout because that’s all he wants from Sam as long as Dean is alive.

This episode pretty much killed off any interest I had in Dean. 2 1/2 years of increasingly selfish, hypocritical and generally dickish behaviour where the only thing that matters are Dean and his 'feeeeelngs' and he will tear into anyone who doesn't put those first. It’s come to the stage now where I don’t expect him anything better from Dean; certainly not decent behaviour. I don't expect him to apologise, I don’t expect him to do right by Sam (or anyone else bar himself), I certainly don’t expect him to atone for and try to make amends for the damage he has done or the multitude of horrible things he has said and done to Sam over the past few years. He never has before, so there's no reason to think he will now.

This episode really highlighted one of Dean's biggest flaws; his total lack of self awareness. Dean says its his ‘cross to bear’ but it’s not. It’s everyone elses cross to bear because he’s in line to kill them all. And we know that Dean won’t let Sam stay dead so is this to be Sam’s eternity? Dean isn’t willing to ‘pay the price’, but he’s perfectly okay with the price being paid as long as he’s the one getting what he wants, and that price is being paid by others. If anyone else wants something then no, the price is too high. Kevin wants out of translating the tablets but no, the price of Kevin not translating is too high so Kevin has to keep translating. Sam wants to close the gates of hell, Dean won’t pay that price so the price will be paid by Sam and everyone else who suffers at the hands of a demon. He talks about the 'biblical negative' consequences but what also has biblical negative consequences? The mark that he willingly put on his arm. Dean wants Sam to lock him in the dungeon. Awesome idea, Dean. Because he can't do that forever. (Though Sam’s not allowed to die so perhaps he can do it forever.) I wonder what happens when Dean escapes and tries to kill Sam, again. Dean bringing up what was said in the Purge, and doing it incorrectly, again, was just the lowest of the low from him. Sam has been working himself raw for a cure for Dean, a cure that’s needed because of Dean’s stupidity and his inability to see past the end of his nose. For years before that, most of his life, Sam had Dean’s back, he fought with him, he saved his life countless times, he has put his own wants and needs aside for Dean, he went to the Cage for Dean and this is what Dean thinks of him? This is what Dean throws in his face when Sam doesn’t dance at Dean’s command? I’ve never understood this aspect of the relationship, where Sam will only think the very best of Dean and ensure that everyone else thinks the best of him, even at the expense of himself (see Charlie in this episode) and Dean will persistently think the very, very worst of Sam.

Charlies 'How did this get to be my life' speech was just horrible. She has that life because she choose to have that life. If she doesn't want that life then she should stop. It's that easy. If something is causing you that much misery then you stop doing it. It’s not a difficult decision. Sam did it (back when he was an actual character). The world won’t end, there will be more hunters, some people will live and some people will die, the same as it always has. Instead, we get someone choosing to hunt because 'Oh look at me I'm a hunter cos I'm so awesome and heroic and it'll get me all the ladies' and then complaining about the choice she made. And i won't get started on her super awesome fighting skills that she probably downloaded for herself from the Matrix.

I'm sorry. This episode was just too frustrating. There was too much about it that made absolutely no sense. C-. And it only got that because of the super acting by Padalecki in the last scene.

Do you think Dean will find out about Rowena and Sam soon and what will be his reaction? Like in season 5 he’ll probably find out at the end of the season, via someone else, when it’s too late and stupid, selfish Sam has already done the damage. Dean’s reaction will be the same as it has always been when Sam (or anyone) has gone against his irrational directives. He’ll show his ‘support’ of Sam in his usual way; blame, berating and punishment. Sam will not speak a single word in his defence, as usual.

??Will the Styne family continue hunting Charlie?
Well, Charlie has to have her own adventure and storyline as well so this could be it.??

Now that Cas’s grace is back, what is the answer to Metatron’s question? What is Cas’ mission?
The angels bore me so I zoned out when they were on. I imagine his mission will be the same as every other character on the show; ‘save’ Dean.

??How far will Sam go for his brother? It really doesn’t matter how far Sam will go, all that matters will be what Dean thinks of it. If Sam does something Dean doesn’t want then Sam will have gone too far. If Dean doesn’t get absolutely everything he wants at the end then Sam will not have gone far enough. ??

What are the costs of using this book?  23 episodes of Sam getting bitched at and criticised.
E
# E 2015-04-18 09:41
I couldn't agree with this statement more. This is pretty much every single complaint that I have with the show in a single post. Brava!
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 07:44
Hi! I'm late to the party, I see that we're on the same page again about this episode, and thankfully we're not the only ones, even if if in the mnority.
E
# E 2015-04-19 13:41
Hi Kelly,
I didn't hate this episode; some things worked pretty well; The Styne Family and the book, Metatron and Cas, even the itty bitty bits of Sam POV were all nicely done. And I loved RT bringing up the big questions:
-what IS Cas's story now?
-Acknowledgement that Dean can't die, i was beginning to wonder if everyone had forgotten....

But I hated Super Ninja Charlie Norris and hated even more the truncated version of the possession that totally focused on Dean's pain at the expense of Sam's and excluded the fact that Dean's actions caused Kevin's death. I guess Charlie doesn't need to know about that insignificant little detail. So for me, a real mixed bag.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 14:47
I didn't hate it either, but rather I'm disappointed because it could have been miles better and because some of the things Sam said made no sense in my opinion.
Like you I'm glad someone finally aknowledged that Dean can't die, that his fate is worth than death to be honest.
As for Cas' story, that's another can of worms, because I feel that he didn't have a real story for a long time now, what little they gave him these past years, I honestly couldn't care less.
I'd really be glad if they finally find something interesting to do with his character, since he literally HAS to be on the show in order to give J2 the time off they need.
percysowner
# percysowner 2015-04-18 10:06
I wish I didn't agree with so much of this, but it's pretty much what I felt about the episode as well.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-04-18 11:04
MK - I find myself agreeing with everything you spelled out here - well said. Dean has gotten in to the very bad habit of calling out/chastising Sam in front of other people. In S8's Goodbye Stranger, when he called Sam out in front of Castiel and Meg, to this episode in front of Charlie. I was hoping against hope that Sam would push back against Dean's snide comment, reminding Dean that maybe Kevin would still be alive if Dean didn't trick him in to being possessed by an angel. But, Sam feels responsible for Kevin's death, and this would break the unspoken rule of questioning teflon Dean's decisions/actio ns/motives on the show. The narrative/POV on this show has gotten terribly skewed and warped during Carver's reign, and I fear it's going to only get worse.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 14:23
MK, while there were parts of this episode that I really enjoyed, I agree with everything you said. And you highlighted what is a huge problem for me: how Dean is being written. As a Sam fan my biggest gripe the past two years has been how woefully underused and poorly written Sam has been. He's become mostly a cipher and a plot device. But as someone who loves Dean almost as much as Sam, I'm also upset by how Dean is being written. They have exaggerated all of his less sterling qualities--the drinking, eating, ogling, dictatorial nature, and treating Sam like a child. Meanwhile, they have almost stripped him of his great qualities, the things that mitigated his faults and made him such a terrific character--his humor, playfulness, concern for everyone but himself, and most importantly, his unbreakable bond with Sam, the one who he puts before everyone else. Someone in another post referred to Sam's "dickish" behavior in Season 9, for reacting angrily (and justifiably IMO) to Dean's betrayal of his trust, a betrayal that not only did Dean never apologize for, but one which he said he'd do again. Yet unmentioned was what a jerk Dean has been this year. For the first time ever, Dean and Sam are completely on the same page, in that they are both only thinking about and worrying about Dean. Dean has given zero thought, and displayed no concern, for anyone this year but himself. That is the antithesis of pre-season 9 Dean. He seemingly has no idea that the MOC thing is a tragedy and burden for Sam too, despite Sam's ceaseless, untiring, obsessive efforts to rid Dean of it. In fact, not only is he giving no thought to how Sam is being affected by it, but he displays no gratitude for Sam's constant support and determination to save him. He has expressed a perfunctory appreciation about it, but there was no real feeling behind his words. Even worse, he treats Sam pretty coldly sometimes, as when he threw the Purge statement in Sam's face. His tone and expression were so harsh and unforgiving. He often doesn't even seem particularly fond of Sam, and he certainly treats him no differently than anyone else. I can only think of two times this entire season when Dean has displayed anything resembling affection or concern for Sam. Once was in Paper Moon when he kinda, sorta expressed some understanding for what Sam went through when Dean died and then vanished. The other time was in fan fiction when he told Marie that he didn't need the samulet to remind him of how he feels about Sam. But apparently he does, because I've seen no evidence of those feelings for a long time. This season and the last half of season 9 have undermined everything Dean said in Sacrifice. Hell, it would be worth Sam being knocked out and tied up if that would elicit the worry and concern by Dean that were a hallmark of his character for 8 years. It's the brothers' relationship that keeps me coming back to SPN, but the current dynamic between them is a shadow of its former self. There have been little glimmers of "lighter" Dean lately, which is odd since supposedly he is getting "worse." And the scene between the brothers in the Impala was a terrific reminder of that relationship that I love so much. But scenes like that have been rare this year. There's a reason why most fans loved and commented on that scene with such joy- because it is what's been missing this whole season. I want the MOC off and I want the real Dean back. I can't take another season of selfish, gloom and doom Dean. And I want him to be a real brother to Sam again, because he hasn't acted that way in a long time.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 07:58
Hi! This post sums the way I feel perfectly. Where is the brotherly love? Where is the "big brother Dean" we all fell in love with? That's what attracted me to the show when I discovered it in season 5. I have never favored one brother over another, what drew me in was the BOND between them, and for a long time it has seemed very one sided. Don't get me wrong, we all KNOW that Dean loves Sam, but he hasn't shown it in a long time, and sometimes he certainly doesn't act like it. And I'm tired of it, it is ruining the show for me, more than the angels ever did!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 10:01
Quote:
And I'm tired of it, it is ruining the show for me, more than the angels ever did!
Agreed, Kelly. The bond between them has seemed completely one sided this year, and I'm not sure I could take another year of it. That brotherly bond IS the show for me.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 12:10
I'm barely hanging on as it is. I used to rewatch an episode two or three times in the first week after they aired, since season 9 I can count on one hand the number of episodes I really enjoyed and rewatched.
It reached the point where it's not anymore the first show I watch as soon as I come home after work on Thursdays, I'd rather watch Nashville and Arrow before because I'm more excited about their storylines, than the ones of my favourite show!
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 07:36
You can't imagine how much it pains me to agree with absolutely everything in your statement.
I can't even be happy that we finally had some Sam POV because of how unbelievable it was, at least to me.
In my opinion, Sam is the most broken, unhappy character I've ever seen on TV, he doesn't have anything to live for, except a brother who claims he loves him more than anything but certainly doesn't act like it.
Since I've discovered the show in late season 5 I have never labelled myself as a Sam girl or Dean girl, I loved both brothers equally, but the carver era has slowly but surely damaged the Dean character to almost a point of no return. How am I supposed to enjoy the show when I reached the point when I roll my eyes everytime Dean opens his mouth, or when every character and the writers paint him as a saint even he's on his way to become a demon again. He's so strong, so pure that he's the one forcing the others to get rid of the book, when it would have been logic he'd be the one trying to keep it!
I don't know how they plan to end this season, I just hope they find a way to redeem Dean as a character in my eyes, because I've always loved him even when he was being a douche and a jerk in the previous seasons, I've always find a way to sympathise with him and understood where he was coming from. Since the carver era, it's become impossible. It seems like he hasn't learned anything from the past experiences, he's always changing his mantra to Sam, it's not a wonder the poor guy keeps screwing up. I just hope they don't make Sam screwing up again at the end of the season, because unlike Dean, Sam has learned from his past mistakes, he's paid a huge price for them, it would be another retcon, just to make Dean look perfect again, and another blow to Sam. How is he supposede to recover from that?
Sorry for my rant, that's the first time I expressed my feelings about the show in a long time and they are all over the place.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-04-19 08:23
It actually pained me to hear Robbie Thompson have him say he 'loved' the hunting life. I keep thinking why ? what has that miserable life done for him ?.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 11:59
This, is another proof that the writers doesn't care for Sam as a character, they make him say whatever they need to fit the plot and don't try very hard to make him express himself without ambiguity. Instead of for example, talking about acceptance, that he's making the most of it and found a silver lining maybe in this life, I mean if you watch and know the show it's not too hard to come to the right conclusion about Sam's state of mind and his views about the hunting life. Especially someone as eloquent and educated as Sam would have no trouble expressing himself in the hands of writers who care about him and his journey. It was the same thing in The Purge, but I wont't go into details on this one.
Sam has barely a voice in this show nowadays and when he opens his mouth, he says a bunch of nonsense that contradicts every bit of the story of his life.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-04-19 12:15
It drives me nuts to be honest and this is what creates such a false sense of everything that goes on for me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 10:10
Well said Kelly. It's particularly satisfying to hear this from someone who is neither a Dean fan nor a Sam fan. Some posters think that views like mine are just misreadings or misunderstandin gs of what I'm seeing on my TV. And it's not Dean bashing, because I love that character. I just don't love what's been done to him by the writers.
kelly
# kelly 2015-04-19 11:43
Exactly! I hope my opinion didn't sound like Dean bashing because that's not what I meant. I have a problem with the the writing, because the way they portray Dean make it really difficult to relate to him.
In their eyes, he's always right, can do no wrong, he rarely apologizes et doesn't own up to his mistakes, how am I supposed to relate to him? And the fact that the writing is so biased, trying to make the audience sympathise with him when he's clearly in the wrong, it infuriates me even more and it has the opposite effect on me. I hate what the writers have done to his character, since season 8 he's been totally OOC in my opinion. There are many exemples but I will just name the very first one in season 8: the over protective big brother Dean, the way he's been portrayed for 7 seasons at the time, would never have blamed Sam for quitting the hunt while he thought he was dead, because it would have been too dangerous on his own, he even said so in the season 6 premiere when he berated him for "hunting solo". He'd rather have his little brother safe and out the life, the same thing that Sam wanted for Dean when he died in Swan Song. Instead the writing makes Dean look like the biggest jerk and hypocrite and if I didn't know any better that Sam cares more for his brother and well being than Dean. Meanwhile, Sam is always wrong, he's damned if he does, damned if he don't, seriously it's become ridiculous at this point, the rules always change when it's Sam in the hot seat, and it's Dean who dictates them. I can't stand this level of hypocrisy and that is what turning me against Dean and therefore ruining my enjoyment of the show.
E
# E 2015-04-19 18:51
Yes! Absolutely. I am an unabashed Sam fan and have been ever since I first laid eyes on the show. He's always been my avatar; he's always been the everyman of the show, the moral compass, the one who wanted things that none of the other characters wanted, thought in a different way, acted out of the norm for the world he was in. He was the fish out of water in his own family and I felt for him from day one. So it's disheartening sometimes to have my POV about story lines diminished because there is an assumption that I must be over reacting to what I am seeing and making more out of things then what is there because, as a Sam fan I am biased and overly sensitive. Sometimes I am sure that I am biased or that I am overly sensitive, but I am not a moron and I have eyes and can see what is right in front of my face. Back in the Kripke years often a problem on the show had Dean feeling one way and Sam another (see Houses of the Holy). Mostly the show did not make any comment on which brother they felt was more right; they just had the boys argue their respective sides. Sometimes the dilemma would resolve one way and sometimes it would resolve another, but I never felt like the show was choosing sides between the brothers. Unfortunately this is no longer the case. The story is unequal, the writing is skewed. The show picks sides between the brothers and almost always picks Dean's side and then shows us how Sam's thinking is flawed. This has been especially true lately with the Amy thing, the not looking plot, Benny, Martin, the possession and it's aftermath. And the story inequality has been going on so long now that I am not sure how anyone could NOT see it. And as a performer and educator with degrees in music and theatre I am well aware of the flaws that can occur in characterizatio n and dramatic construction; and I see ALL of that going on when it comes to Sam, and it's ruining my enjoyment of the show. Give him back his voice. Give him back his morality. Let him make his own decisions and then argue with Dean about it. Let him say what he's thinking in COMPLETE sentences. Don't have him act inexplicably or inconsistently or like a total jerk for the sake of the plot. Don't have him change his mind randomly or say OOC things because its suddenly useful for him to contradict himself. Stop making Sam wrong just to make Dean right. I want Sam back; the Sam who would tell Dean to "own up to his crap" who would argue his POV even when everyone else disagreed with him. Where is that guy? The guy who pulled the car over in front of his dad's truck just so he could force a confrontation with him. The guy who went toe to toe with this dad and wouldn't back down. Where is he?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-19 19:50
I too have been a Sam fan since the pilot. I just felt an immediate connection to Sam that I've never felt for another character. I love the complexities of the character, and his strengths and flaws. The Sam I'm watching now is a pale imitation of the Kripke era Sam. I particularly miss the way he stood up for himself, especially with Dean and John. Sam is now so PASSIVE. Often when Dean or other characters are giving him crap or saying things he doesn't agree with, he just stands there silently, while Jared tries his damndest to convey Sam's thoughts with his expressions. Where is that fire of the earlier years? The writers simply haven't been interested enough in writing Sam to pay attention to character consistency. The next few weeks will tell us if Season 11 will be any different.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2015-04-18 09:44
Mrs Dr Jones on 12 MONKEYS is Really a
Lying Liar who Lies A Lot :D:D:D:D
eilf
# eilf 2015-04-18 19:34
So far all I have seen of this episode is Charlie's 'oh the hunting life' speech ...
...
..
.
Dear heaven what is this nonsense? Was it supposed to be funny? Was that supposed to be a serious speech? Why Sam didn't fall on the floor laughing I don't know. I bet Jared did at least once during that scene ...
BOBBY while he was DYING wouldn't have had enough gravitas and world-weariness to pull off that speech.
I will grant Felicia she gave it her best shot.
But, for serious!:o
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 21:09
I agree. I find it incomprehensibl e that anyone could have liked that scene. It was sublimely ridiculous. I can't wait to hear what you thought of the rest. I always like your insights.
eilf
# eilf 2015-04-18 22:12
It was like watching a 6 year old pretend to be Phillip Marlowe .... oh I know what it reminded me of - Bugsy Malone! I knew it seemed familiar.

Thanks Samandean I have decided to give the rest of the season a miss until I know exactly what they are up to - I am too burned and jaded at this stage for the benefit of the doubt - so I am afraid I haven't any insights for you :)
(now *I* sound like Bugsy Malone ....)

Here's my prediction for next season for Charlie:

Season 11 episode 9, in a world destroyed by the antics of two brothers who shouldn't really be let out of the house (bunker, whatever), one hunter is there to save the day.

Charlie Norris:


Felicia, I love you really, and I know you must have some influence with him, can you not have a word with Mr Thompson and tell him to lay off a little?
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-04-18 23:52
Now Linda Hamilton I could see kicking everyone's ass. And SHE would not be whining about the difficulties of the post apocalyptic world. Charlie, however, could be whupped by a third grader...who only has one leg...and no arms. And Charlie would probably complain to said third grader about the miseries of the hunter's life.

On another note, I'm sorry you're so discouraged that you're taking a hiatus. Hopefully the last 5 episodes will be a vast improvement over the bulk of the past two years- although I'm cringing at the thought of another Charlie episode. Didn't you want to smack her when she interrupted Sam's speech? OK, Charlie rant is over...until her next appearance. Hopefully you'll be back in the fold soon!
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 01:13
Yeeeessss! I wanted to sooo badly. I was screaming at my set for her to shut up and let the man speak!!! Not only does she have to summarize what he might have been going to say (cause you know, she interrupted him) but who knows if she was totally correct in her summation because it seemed like he wanted to add to it!!! And then she has the gall to turn it around to her 5 minutes of experience in the life of hunting and how its so haaaaarrrrdddd! Ugh. RT I'm starting to seriously hate, hate, hate you. Nah, just your annoying character!

Thing that kills me is she isn't that bad if they dial down the MarySue. But...just when I start to kinda warm up to her again, he pulls this kind of crap.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-04-19 01:03
Shouldn't really be let out of the house! ;) I'd like to add to that - Or play with sharp objects...

Are you sure she wouldn't actually be the Terminator? After all, her tagline which would throw fear into the thousands of Charlie haters (dislikers sounds so blah) would be so fitting - 'I'll be back' We know you will Charlie, we know you will. *Sobs and curses RT quietly under her breath* Ooooo there's a butterfly! (Good thing some of us are easily distracted...)
madalina
# madalina 2015-05-02 15:46
i loved this episode ....i loved the final scene and the song behind blue eyes and jared's sad face ...it was so emotional..omg and also ...sam is a true man of letters he really takes care of dean and does his best in finding the cure,.. i already knew that sam would hide the book and wouldn't burn it....and he is s true man ,,,staiyng strong even if dean already gave up ,....i really feel so sad for him :( i wish that there are more man of letter and that they are not alone :( it would much better because it would suck if the legacy would die when they die :(