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Summary:  This episode was written by Robert Berens and directed by Phil Sgriccia. The episode brings us back to the most important myth arc of the past season and a half – the Mark of Cain.

The story opens in a prison on death row. The title, “The Executioner’s Song,” gives us an idea about the frame of the episode. The prisoner, Tommy Toliver, is on death row for a series of murders of women. After he taunts the guard, who reminds him he’ll die in two weeks time, we see the empty hallway and lights blink. Then a figure emerges and we see that it is Cain. He’s come for Tommy. After a short and very intense exchange, Cain stabs Tommy and they disappear.

We find Dean and Sam following the murder investigation and they uncover Cain’s involvement. Castiel is following leads to Cain, including the torture and murder of a demon, and finds Cain in his cemetery, a cemetery filled with the bodies of his descendants. He tells Cas that he is killing 10% of his descendants and he is on a mission…with Dean Winchester on the list. Cas wants to know the cure for the mark but Cain says there is no cure. It looks like Cain is going to kill him but Cas escapes and tells Sam and Dean where the father of murder is. They figure out that he is going after family lines. Tommy had a son, twelve years old. Dean says he will go after Cain, a prospect that Sam is worried about because it would mean exposing Dean to his unchecked side.

The secondary story was Rowena and Crowley. Rowena is setting up Crowley’s insecurities about his rule of Hell and she lambasts him for leaving when the boys call for him to bring the blade. When Crowley arrives, the plan to take out Cain falls into place. They use the boy or the illusion of the boy as bait for Cain. Although worried about Dean and the blade, they give it to Dean to take out Cain. Dean notes that if he comes out as something other than what he is, they should take him out. There is a beautiful moment between the brothers before Dean goes inside.

The fight between Cain and Dean is intense with Cain taunting Dean with his bloodline but also finally telling Dean that the Winchester brother is living Cain’s life in reverse. He details how Dean will lose it and eventually kill his brother. Dean doesn’t want to but he cuts off Cain’s hand and kills the father of murder. When he comes back out, he gives Cas the blade and Crowley disappears, after Dean admits to lying to him twice that day. He had told Crowley he was on Cain’s list of kills, which he wasn’t. Dean falls into his brother’s embrace.

The episode ends with Crowley and Rowena. Rowena threatens to leave because of Crowley’s weakness especially with regards to the Winchesters. He stops her. The next scene is Sam and Dean in the bunker’s kitchen. They are talking and Sam is hopeful that Dean can control the mark. Cas comes in and Dean leaves the room. Cas asks how Dean is to which a very worried Sam replies, in a broken voice, that Dean is not okay.

This was a stunning episode – it was beautifully directed and the brothers were heartbreaking and heart affirming.


Do you think that Cas getting the blade foreshadows the fact that Dean has made Cas promise to kill him if he goes off the rails?

Do you think Sam will do something to find a cure for the mark? Is there a cure for the mark or was Cain right?

What is Rowena’s game and is Crowley buying it? Is he as vulnerable as he seems or is he conning the con?

Hug, people! We got a hug!!!!!

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!


# Alice 2015-02-17 23:14
I'm utterly stunned. Yeah, that's all I got right now. Off to rewatch!
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-17 23:20
As I predicted, ''GUD SHOW''
Crowley is punk-ing Rowena.
# iamsam1013 2015-02-17 23:26
I think I love Robert Berens. What a wonderful episode. He managed to involve Sam all the way through (contrary to MUCH negativity about sam in this episode) and didn't resort to making him a damsel in distress or missing all the action for something stupid. Can he please write all the episodes for the rest of the season?
# princeei 2015-02-17 23:30
I have to rewatch to form an opinion. So much happened so fast! Wonderful episode.
# Asking 2015-02-17 23:39
I have not been keeping up this season. Gave up after Season 9. If I would like to watch this episode, what other episodes should I watch this season? I ask not for knowledge about the plotlines but quality wise.
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-18 13:08
Watch the first 3 episodes of s10 and then
this episode. View the 200th
episode just for fun.
# wormbean 2015-02-17 23:49
Do any of you think Crowley needs the 1st blade to kill his pseudo-mom?
# wormbean 2015-02-18 00:06
I do have to admit, I watched 9 seasons in less than 2 weeks, kinda pissed off that I never watched when it was airing weekly. I could've sworn that Sam and Dean's father was Robert Downy Jr. Luckily I found a woman who was watching since the get go. She actually got pissed off when I brought up some shit regarding the show,( like Benny playing 2 different characters), easy to do when you watch 200 episodes on a binge. I brought up the Cain and Able shit early. She didn't agree until Dean got the mark. I look forward to Tuesday because this show is followed by Justified. Good night of TV for me. I can't wait for next week. If Dean kills Cas, I might not watch for a minute. That's like killing Reedus on TWD.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-18 00:27
If Darryl dies, we all riot!!!!!!!!!!! !
# wormbean 2015-02-18 00:33
I own that shirt:)
# DJmars 2015-02-18 00:44
I have a armband that says that. Its rather worn down now though... Hopefully that isnt a sign!!!;)
# BookLady 2015-02-18 00:10
Just my thoughts -

Something broke in Dean when Cain called him a murderer like himself. It left him vulnerable to Cain's predictions that he'll kill Cas and Sam. (I don't think he cares if he kills Crowley since he and Sam have wanted to do that for awhile. He is a demon after all.) The thing that struck me is that yes, Cain killed Abel and became the father of murder, but Dean has killed in his life quest to save people, not harm them. From a very early age, he was the glue, not the destroyer, of his family. He comforted his mother when she and John weren't getting along. He supported his dad when he returned from hunts. He is the number one care taker and protector of his little brother. Being aware of the well-being of others is programmed into his DNA even if he is a descendent of Cain. And, who did Cain ever look after? Did he ever have to consider the well-being of humanity when it only consisted of his immediate family? Yes, the Mark is supernatural and a very old evil, but so is Lucifer and the Winchester brothers defeated him. My prediction is that Dean, with Sam as his support, will have to remember his essential love of humanity in order to overcome the Mark.
# wormbean 2015-02-18 00:35
Dean broke when he beat the shit out of Felicia.
# wormbean 2015-02-18 00:31
Agree totally. I just hope they continue to put out quality shit. In my opinion, they kinda sucked for a few seasons, but having a show on the air for 10+ seasons can't be easy. I'm still waiting for Bobby and Daddy Winchester to make appearances, you can't end this show without them coming back for even a second. If they pull a "Lost" and just say they were in Purgatory, it would be sad, very, very sad. I'm not into fan fiction, but this is one of the shows that makes me actually think about the next episode. I could see Dean killing Crowley and becoming the King of Hell, I could also see Castiel becoming the new ruler of Heaven. In another storyline, if they do it right, I could even see Sam an Dean being "Tricked", and none of this shit ever happened. Just had to put them through some BS to see if they were worthy.....
# DJMars 2015-02-18 00:43
WOW. a++ to the episode, I think now we have some strict parallels between Cain & Abel and Sam & Dean, there will be more interaction with all the characters. More so, did Sam hear the conversation between Dean and Cain? Or is he reading into Deans body language and inferring through his knowledge of his brother that Dean isn't being 100% honest and has something weighing in on him? I think either way, with Cains inclusion of Crowley, Castiel, and Sam into Deans MOC Arch, there will be a much larger dynamic to all the characters, and some venturing into how they personally feel about The Mark and its impact on their friend/brother. Now they're wrapped into how this will play out, according to cain at least, whether they know it or not. Deans behavior towards them is sure to change. I wonder how strict they'll follow the Cain/Able tale in the upcoming episodes? Like I always say though, I have been wrong before, and this is just some speculation on the story line. Anybody have any thoughts for me?
# DJmars 2015-02-18 00:52
i think that its a prerequisite that dean trusts cas, and that they both know if worse comes to worse, Cas will do his best to kill dean. If he'll succeeds another story... i think sams hands are tied, with the mark. as much faith as i have in our boys, they cant fight city hall. well, they can... but you know what i mean. If there is a cure i think it has to come from within dean, much like sam got control of lucifer when he saw the army man crammed into the ashtray of the impala... the things that army man has seen... I think crowley knows whats up with his mother, but his emotions are wacky, so i wonder if his son will come into play... great acting from j2, Misha, Timothy and Mark as well!
# wormbean 2015-02-18 00:59
I was never convinced that Sam lost his, pardon the words, "visions/ pre-cog" abilities. And Sam and Dean haven't been honest with each other for a while. Hell, even Cas lies, and he's an angel....
# Lilah_Kane 2015-02-18 01:13
All I can say for now... Is just wow... Berens, Thou art AWESOME.

- Lilah
# wormbean 2015-02-18 01:28
Apparently Berens shouldn't eat Pizza either.( hit twitter)
# dashnjo 2015-02-18 02:01
Still trembling ... wow that was so good, but so freaking scary! I'm still hung up on Cain telling Dean he's doing the Mark in reverse and he'll kill Crowley, then Cas (NOOOO) and then Sam. Now, there's going to be a season 11 so I think Sam will be safe somehow, someway which is the only reason I'm not really freaking out so much about that. Yeah, if it comes down to that it'll be time for a whiskey and some tissues for sure but I'm just saying here and now that if Dean kills Cas I'm out. My heart won't be able to go on. It was hard enough watching Gadreel (using Sam's body) killing Kevin but Cas is a whole different ball of wax. Unless there's a really, REALLY well-thought out reason for it and there isn't a shred of Dean left (and even then) I don't think my heart can go on. Never thought I'd say that and I'd probably end up watching the last season at some later time but not for a long time, if ever. I made it through the last season of the X-Files mostly without Mulder (man, that was hard) but Mulder was just missing (I think, can't remember) and ended up coming back at the end of the series... he wasn't killed by his BFF/family doesn't end in blood family.

Anyway, also hung up on the end where Dean was all false bravado and Sam just KNEW that Dean was in trouble, because he knows Dean better than anyone. The fear on his face was so intense! Ugh! I'm trying to remember when I've seen Sam so scared for Dean ... he's always known that Dean can fight through anything and trusts him to do so but this time he's really scared. Just want to wrap he and Cas into a big hug!
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-18 15:16
I could not bear it if Dean had to kill SAM.
SPN's Protector killing his baby brother.
# E 2015-02-18 16:18
I have two theories: 1) that Dean's salvation lies in NOT killing Sam… sort of like Sam/Lucifer vs. Dean in the graveyard during Swan Song. Sam will give his all to help Dean gain control over the Mark, which will drain it of it's influence in some way. Or 2) Sam makes a deal with Lucifer, the creator of the mark, to get Dean released from it's influence. All Sam has to do is find a rogue reaper to get him into purgatory, get into hell through the back door, make his way to the cage and offer himself back to Lucifer as his preferred meat suit in exchange for taking the Mark off of Dean. I could see this happening and would actually prefer this as then it would show that there was SOME actual reason for introducing both rogue reapers (which I HATE) and introducing that stupid back door into Hell which made everyone but especially Crowley look stupid for not knowing it was even there. What an interesting parallel it would be for Sam to actually OFFER to allow himself to be inhabited by an angel again after what happened at the start of season 9 and Gadreel. That would be pretty awesome and an interesting turn of events and would actually refer back to season 9 and 8. I am probably way off base; I almost never figure out where they are going with these story lines and for the past few seasons I think my ideas have been WAY better than what they've actually come up with, but I guess I'll have to wait and see. Anyone else got a theory or two of what they think might happen?
# E 2015-02-18 16:19
Either way NOLANOLA, I don't' think we'll be seeing Dean kill Sam anytime soon. :P
# aidigat 2015-02-18 05:51
My thoughts on "Dean's in trouble" Sam's quote:
- Sam has listened what Cain had said about killing Crowley, Castiel and himself.
- He is refering to Dean's feelings.
- He refers to the physical state of Dean (Dean needs the First Blade for not die)
- All together!
What do you think? Is this a mini spoiler for what's coming?
# Prix68 2015-02-18 06:54
Awesome! Supernatural at its best! Need to rewatch.
# galen 2015-02-18 07:05
Wow. Incredible episode. So many great visual moments. The last scene was the best. Sam's face was heart breaking. Jared was samtastic. I could watch the scenes between Cain and Dean over and over.
# E 2015-02-18 07:35
So THAT'S what a well written, well considered, well constructed episode with good characterizatio n, and attention to continuity and canon looks like. I'd almost forgotten… boy if Robert Berens episode did ANYTHING at all it was to highlight how absolutely terrible all of the rest of the writing has been for the past little (long) while. That old Supernatural magic is STILL there! Its just been buried under poor plotting, bad pacing, poor editing, bad writing and most of all terrible show running. Its funny that the newest and least seasoned of all the Supernatural writers has the most consistent and authentic grasp on the characters. i hope the other writers are taking notes, because this is how it should be done. Can Berens write all the rest of the episodes this season? We might just get somewhere if he does. No one else in the writers room is on this level not even Carver.
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-18 15:10
Berens by himself, NO ONE else.
# njspnfan 2015-02-18 07:42
Great episode, with the first half building up slowly to the climactic showdown; definitely needs a rewatch to finalize thoughts. Top notch work all around, particularly Jensen, Tim, and Jared. The showdown had a Star Wars Vader / Luke feel to it, complete with the chopped off hand. Which was kind of strange because Dean is always referred to as the Hans Solo character, and Sam as Luke Skywalker. In Nightsky's Threads articles, I had theorized that the MoC would ultimately compel Dean to kill Sam. This plays in nicely to earlier seasons, with John telling Dean he would either have to save Sam, or kill him. And Dean, as Michael's chosen vessel, being "destined" to kill Sam, Lucifer's vessel.

Do you think that Cas getting the blade foreshadows the fact that Dean has made Cas promise to kill him if he goes off the rails? I thought the First Blade was only an effective weapon in the hands of a bearer of the MoC, or did I miss something? Maybe Cas can hide the First Blade in the same place as Sam's S10 storyline... that way they'll never find it again ;););)

Do you think Sam will do something to find a cure for the mark? Is there a cure for the mark or was Cain right? Not sure whether it has to be Dean ultimately overcoming the urge/need to kill Sam, or whether there's an actual cure out there.

What is Rowena’s game and is Crowley buying it? Is he as vulnerable as he seems or is he conning the con? Crowley is on to her, but Rowena is still playing him like a fiddle, tapping in to all his childhood insecurities.
# sugarhi15 2015-02-18 07:46
Do you think that Cas getting the blade foreshadows the fact that Dean has made Cas promise to kill him if he goes off the rails?
or he gave it to cas simply to keep it away from him, for his continuing fear of what he could become.

Do you think Sam will do something to find a cure for the mark? Is there a cure for the mark or was Cain right?
I think there is a cure. Just because Cain didn't know it, how would he, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Metatron is the key. Sam, when not blinded by his own pain and hurt to a point he can't breathe, is the one person who can see through dean as though he was glass. dean had a victory here and sam knows it and holds out hope that dean can win against the mark. dean put on a show of being fine, but sam knows better...he knows that dean is starting to succumb...not necessarily to the mark, but to the belief that the mark will win and he won't be able to fight. This fear will drive Sam to find a cure and quickly and he'll do whatever it takes to save his brother. I can see Sam even bargaining with metatron...:o

What is Rowena’s game and is Crowley buying it? Is he as vulnerable as he seems or is he conning the con?
I don't really care what her game is....all I know is I think she finally has revived the deliciously evil Crowley that has been missing since s8. so kudos to her for that accomplishment. :D

I don't think dean is living cain's life in reverse, I think cain just told him that. Since this show began, angels and demons alike have been pushing the Winchesters to follow their roles and the one thing that the boys have always done is tell them to take their so called destiny and shove it up their asses.....well as long as dean still believes in that, he will never become cain.... dean has a lot going for him that makes him different...not only his own strength of character, but the love of friends and most important he has sam Winchester..... the love sam has for him, and the love he has for sam is the strongest force in the Winchester world....and since we had an empire strikes back moment.....i'd say the force will definitely triumph.

excellent episode all the way around. :D
# E 2015-02-18 12:01
I don't think Cas CAN kill Dean no matter how much he may end up wanting him to. Killing Dean will only send him straight back into demo hood and him being in even worse trouble than he's in now. The only option is a cure. Even living with the mark is unrealistic, especially now that Deans killed Cain. Hes a ticking time bomb; a cure is the only answer and may hopefully give Sam something to do finally.
# njspnfan 2015-02-18 12:11
E - I think Dean could be killed by someone with the MoC and the First Blade, just as Cain was killed
# E 2015-02-18 12:23
But that would require Dean passing the mark on to someone else, which he will never do. I don't think Dean would ever knowingly bestow the mark on another person given what he now knows about it. And there's zero indication that an angel can take it. As a matter of fact I'm thinking that it can only be bestowed on someone in the bloodline which was alluded to but not stated right out in the episode. I mean could you see Dean saddling another human being with the MoC? I'm wondering if Sam will try to get lucifer to take it back. Maybe that's what metatron meant about "the source." Everyone thought the source was Cain but it's really lucifer, he marked Cain to begin with.
# njspnfan 2015-02-18 13:21
sorry. misread your post; you're right, Castiel can't kill him. I think an Archangel or Death, or God could, but that's about it.
# Prix68 2015-02-18 14:38
When Dean was killed by Metatron, he didn't appear to become a demon until the first blade was placed in his hand. Does that mean he can be killed and stay dead if the blade is kept away from him afterwards? if so, will his soul go to hell anyway and he'd still become a demon? Dean has never seemed as powerful as Cain or on quite the same level. Closer to Abbadon, maybe? I thought it was odd that Dean killed Cain from behind.
# E 2015-02-18 15:44
I was confused about that too. Dean was dead, then Crowley put the blade in his hand and Dean woke as a demon. Would have have woken without the blade, was he a demon already? Lots of confusion and cloudiness surrounding this issue. Is Dean partly a demon even now? If his mortal body is killed again will he come back as a demon again? Did killing Cain push him further toward demon? Lots of questions. Even now I don't think Dean is the same as Cain was. Cain died and became a demon in the regular way; he had demon powers (like throwing people across rooms and drawing the blade to himself, and whatever that bright light thingie was that vaporized all those demons) but Dean is still essentially human because of the cure. So how will the blade work on him?
# Prix68 2015-02-18 16:58
That's what makes this whole thing so difficult to get a handle on. Dean at one point said he was a Knight of Hell, like Abbadon, but I never saw him have any of their special skills. Not even flicking people into walls, which most ordinary demons can do. Dean still drove Baby, even though he didn't seem to care about the car. He is just sort of an amped up version of himself. Why isn't the blade making him sick like it did before if he's not a demon. There are no rules or parameters that we can follow. Just arm grabbing to let us know he feels the mark. He seemed pretty in control in this episode.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-18 17:17
Remember when Metatron said to Dean - if roughing up a few humans and demons made him fall deeper under the MOCs spell, try messing with the scribe of God, Bucko!?! Well now Deans killed the Father of Murder - I wonder how fast and how far he is going to fall? I was surprised that he was able to maintain even a semblance of control at the end. How is he managing to do that?
# Prix68 2015-02-18 17:54
I don't know but this doesn't seem to be following the same rules as last season. It may be that Dean is just more aware and therefore able to control the mark better? Sam is more involved so he is able to stabilize Dean in some way by his calm and encouraging presence? I would have thought Dean would have been so ramped up from killing Cain he wouldn't be able to sleep but he seemed genuinely worn out.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-18 18:37
But Metatron just said that a few eps ago and that was after Dean lost it killing Randy and Company. Heh, sounds like a rock band... so now he's killed the biggest murderer of all and nothing? Crickets? Is Dean getting that good at hiding things? Interesting about him needing rest - maybe because he didn't and resisting the MOC/FB weakened him? Or he's going to run. If he killed Cain, I just can't understand how he is not off the rails at this point? Or what will set him off? Another hunt or Sammy spilling mustard on the Impala seat? "Sam!!!!!! Thwack!"
# E 2015-02-18 20:20
I don't think Dean's gonna do a runner; or at least the previews (which were for a few eps I think) didn't make it look like he ran. I really hope after this awesome episode that we don't revert back suddenly to…. meh.. not much of anything. I am not sure that the other writers can keep up the momentum begun by Berens' awesome script. They did so in the first three eps, and then? Nadda. Hopefully Carver has finally decided to implement some kind of a plan, making it up as they go certainly does not seem to be working all that well.
# Prix68 2015-02-18 20:22
Yeah, but he didn't go off the rails after Metatron. Sam pulled him right back. I don't think Dean is hiding anything from Sam or Cas. He seems totally honest and above board. Dean made it plain he's worried even at the table in the bunker. Maybe because Cain's remission didn't last, he thinks his won't either and Cain was his last hope for a cure. I think Dean would cut off his own arm before he killed Sam.
# njspnfan 2015-02-18 12:16
Just curious - anyone buying in to the theory that, since we didn't actually see Cain (AKA Stumpy) get stabbed or die, that he might still be alive, and that Dean is conning everyone?

I don't buy into it but curious what other people are thinking.
# E 2015-02-18 12:27
That could be interesting. I was sort of expecting fireworks when Cain died, and he went pretty quietly. Maybe...
# MindiWynne 2015-02-18 14:05
There was thunder when Dean supposedly stabbed him, so I thought that was indicative that Cain was destroyed. I did catch, though, when Dean asked Cain "Will you ever stop? "Can you stop?" Cain didn't reply that he couldn't stop, he just said "I won't stop." I do think Cain is dead, and I think Dean believed ahead of time that killing Cain was potentially sealing his doom.
# E 2015-02-18 15:46
I don't remember the thunder. Oh well…rewatch!:D
# njspnfan 2015-02-18 18:21
I just rewatched it; there was definitely thunder, and First Blade stabby-squishy noises, so I think Cain is dead.
# E 2015-02-18 20:22
As Nate would say… stabbity, stab… blarg, is dead. Where is Nate these days?
# njspnfan 2015-02-19 11:23
Nate does a weekly catchup on twitter the day after the episode first airs.... #SPNCatchup
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-19 12:49
Maybe NATE could put that information in his Writers Bio on WFB.
thanks NJspnFan.
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-18 15:33
Oh good gawd MAN, we never saw his body
just heard thunder.
# aidigat 2015-02-18 12:35
I need some opinions about something that has been haunting my mind. In the episode 9x23 Do you believe in miracles?, when Cas and Sam locked Dean up in the bunker, Dean begins to throw up blood, what Crowley explains that it's an effect of the First Blade. So...I am guessig that when Sam says "Dean's in trouble" in the last episode, he is referring to this fact.
# njspnfan 2015-02-18 13:11
Sam didn't know about that happening to Dean when they locked him in the dungeon; it was more likely Sam's statement earlier in the episode about Dean wielding the blade against Cain, and that he may never "come back" from that.
# E 2015-02-18 15:48
I think that Dean's being sick in 9x23 was more to do with his mortal body being affected by the blade the first time. If using/not using the blade were going to make him sick again, now that he's been cured, I think we would have seen it already. I think Sam's "Dean's in trouble" was more about the mark itself and Dean succumbing to it fully like Cain had. He's worried that Dean is the new Cain or Dean Cain as it were.
# percysowner 2015-02-18 16:04
So the first step is to keep him away from primary colored spandex and women named Lois Lane?
# E 2015-02-18 16:22
exactly! No tights and dance belt for Dean! :D
# LEAH 2015-02-18 20:02
# E 2015-02-18 16:02
My chief worries about this episode were 1) that it seemed preposterous that a live/human, non-demon Dean could in even remotely take on Cain and win, and 2) that Sam would be rendered obsolete and useless or worse shunted off screen through some pathetic ruse. But lo and behold! Amazing things can happen when a script is really well written; the writer figures out how to deal with things and writes them in a way that makes sense and is satisfying for all characters! Amazing. So, Dean still shouldn't have been able to kill Cain, but Berens' had a great fight scene that showed just how outmatched Dean was, then he showed how Dean basically got lucky and was quick thinking. The way he took out Cain was awesome and believable. And as far as Sam being useless and obsolete… well he still was both those things, but so were Cas and Crowley; that was there part of the story, to want to help, but be unable to. Basically they were all just sitting around doing nothing and Sam was very present in the episode, something I worried about greatly given many writers tendency to "excuse" Sam from a scene in the most coarse and obvious fashion. Berens dealt with it directly, showing us a Sam who felt unable to help and was frustrated by that; he SHOWED It to us, can you imagine that? One of the writers actually SHOWED us Sam and showed us what he felt. Amazing how that works! Then he SHOWED us Sam's terrible fear for his brother…. we SAW it… he had LINES (well, one line) about it and everything! For me Jared practically stole the whole episode in that one moment. So, yeah, Sam was pretty useless, but I didn't mind because Berens didn't omit him or excuse him from the action, he had Sam stay and express his frustration at not being able to help his bother with something that, clearly, nobody could help him with. So kudos Mr. Berens you did a bang up job. I haven't been this excited by an episode of this show since Sacrifice…. which was….oh about 37 episodes ago.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-02-18 16:35
Overall I loved the episode for many of the reasons you did, but with 2 relatively minor quibbles. First, why did it incapacitate Cain when Dean cut off his hand? Even though that was the hand holding the blade, Cain had been flinging Dean around effortlessly even before he got the blade back. Why did Cain just kneel there and wait for Dean to kill him? Am I missing/forgett ing something about limitations on his supposedly incredible powers? Also, when Dean told Sam he was scared (which was the most I've liked Dean in quite a few episodes- stark fear is much more moving than whining self-pity) I was waiting breathlessly for some moving response from Sam, like Dean's lines in Swan Song about how he's never leave Sam. A missed opportunity, I thought. But it was mostly made up for by a bro-hug.. well, at least half a hug, since Dean didn't really hug back; and by Sam's incredible last line. Boy did he sell the fear and sadness. But overall, this episode left me feeling excited for the first time in a long time about what will happen next, and hopeful that Sam will be actively involved in resolving the problem of the MOC. PLEASE, no retread of Dean spiraling down, getting more out of control.
# sylvia37 2015-02-18 17:42
When Dean aid he was scared, I was sure there was going to be some sort of heartfelt conversation, and....nada. I really got the feeling that Sam had actual lines and they cut them. It was so awkward. I was so disappointed. But the last scene with Sam ALMOST made up for it. I was so sure they were going to follow Dean into his room and we were going to be treated to more Dean angst and arm clutching and instead, wonder of wonders, the camera stayed on SAM and he actually got a LINE that showed us not only what he was thinking, but how intuitive he is of his brother. My eyes actually tearred up, and I agree with E, it practically stole the show for me.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-02-18 20:34
I know what you mean about Sam maybe having lines that were cut. It just doesn't make sense that Sam would stand there and say NOTHING after Dean admits that he's afraid. For all Sam knows, Dean is going to his death and there's no way Sam would just stoically stand there in silence after Dean confesses something that had to be incredibly hard for him to admit. Oh well, I'm trying to be content with the Sam POV we got, which hopefully is just the beginning of a long-overdue Sam story line.
# njspnfan 2015-02-18 16:57
I would imagine getting your hand cut off might affect a demon; he was also in a devil's trap and didn't have all his mojo. As far as why he stopped fighting, I have to watch again but my guess is he wanted to die.
# Prix68 2015-02-18 18:01
I agree. I think Cain was ready to die.
# YellowEyedSam 2015-02-18 17:09
I'd take a guess that this will play out exactly like it did with Cain. Somehow, somewhere Sam will talk to Lucifer. Perhaps in a desperate attempt to save Dean. He looses himself to his demon side perhaps due to Lucifer's scheme, and Dean will kill Sam.
# ThisOldBag 2015-02-18 19:46
So I was right, nothing was resolved. It was a mini cliff hanger getting us ready I guess for the rest of the story. It was a good hour of television and I never hit the ff button (except commercials of course) so Win! I wondered how they would contrive having Sam not hearing what Cain said to Dean. It wasn't a terrible way to work around the situation I guess, it just doesn't service the whole "team free will" or the Winchesters being in it together and I found myself waiting for Sam to burst in and assist. I didn't like the whole "I'll just wait here then". If Dean had lost the battle and really died (although the outcome was pretty much predictable) wouldn't Sam have died also? Either by confronting Cain or Cain just killing him? So, yes, I think this was Cain's call to have Dean kill him and end this. If he had just showed up and said "kill me" it's doubtful Dean would have done it, at least not right away. Anyway, pretty good hour, great performances all around and, once again, great production.
# E 2015-02-18 20:38
I agree… I could have done without pretty much everybody else sitting around on the first level of that barn just basically waiting and doing nothing. Still though, for me this is a minor quibble in an otherwise stellar episode… and it's been SOOOOOOO long since there's been a such good one, a really, really good one that I'll let that pass. At least Sam didn't say, "I'll go get dinner while you fight Cain" or get knocked out or tied up. At least he got to say how he felt and was a large part of the episode up until the fight. And like I said before, Sam's last line "Dean's in trouble" and the look on his face, the fear, pretty much stole the whole episode for me, it was heart wrenching. And this is the closest I have felt to sympathizing with Dean in forever. He wasn't whiny, or self-pitying, shifting blame, judging or pushing Sam away… he was facing things head on, he was scared shitless and fought anyway, he was trying to figure out which was the best or most right thing, which is the Dean I've always loved and felt like I haven't seen in years.

Per Robert Berens twitter it seems some of the convo about Dean AND Sam being on Cain's list of people in his bloodline, people to eliminate that yes had Dean died then Sam would have been next, but that dialog got cut for time apparently. Sometimes I really wonder about the stuff that they cut for time. Why leave out key bits of dialog that explains someones modus operandi and leave in the "It's for your own good Sammy" section that we've heard a thousand times before…. ???? And I also agree that if Cain had just showed up and said "kill me, you promised" then Dean wouldn't have done it. But since Cain went on the attack, Dean was pretty much forced to. It's too bad TO is a badass, I'd love to see him be a regular on this show.
# eilf 2015-02-18 20:35
Wow. Where did THAT episode come from? That is not the same show we have been watching all season. But it would have fit in beautifully way back when. It wasn't exactly old-school because old-school would never have let Dean go into a boss-fight while Sam waited downstairs, but you take what you can get ...
The intro was very X-files'y and the entire episode was filmed like the director believed they are all real people, even hell is beginning to look like it might be a real place.
I am surprised Cain got his comeuppances, wasn't really expecting that! And Jensen seemed to be doing a whole lot of his own stunts, and really throwing himself into it, fair play to him!

I also have to admit, I LOVE Rowena, I really do, I think she is so exactly what Crowley's mother ought to be. The actress who plays her is hilarious. Crowleys job this season hs been rather like Sam's, to be a sounding board for whoever wants to talk at him. Though in Crowley's case it is because he is supposed to be machiavellian, but both he and Sam communicated in this episode (at one point, with each other!), which was a nice change.

Where the storyline moves forward now could be already flagged. But it depends on where Dean is at. What I saw at the end of the episode was Dean patting Cas's shoulder and then rolling his eyes as he walked away. Did anyone else take that scene that way? Like Dean is already defeated by the blade but is pretending to be normal? It would be interesting if that was what Sam meant, not that Dean was losing a fight, but that he recognizes that Dean isn't himself any more.

Dean could totally be 'Soulless!Dean' for a few episodes with Sam either worried, or already aware that Dean has gone dark.

Oh man that last scene, centered on Sam's face! I assume that this is the point where he has decided on his 'quest' for the latter part of the season. The theory above about Lucifer is actually a pretty good one, or maybe it will turn out that Death actually DOES like the Winchesters and will do them another favor, possibly in return for them fixing the souls in the veil problem?
# E 2015-02-18 20:59
the entire episode was filmed like the director believed they are all real people,
Ah eilf, you always manage to read my mind a little bit. Yes this! So many of the episodes have been written and filmed as though the show was a fantasy, like Charmed and the characters are not real, nor are we supposed to infuse them with real world ideals or morals or connect them to our world in any way. That's one of the huge failings of the later years IMO. Krpike always wrote/filmed/believed that Sam and Dean could be real if you just looked in the right place at the wrong time. Berens' script was like that and so was the filming style. I loved that first scene in the Impala from the back seat, it had a gritty realism that I've been missing for ages.
But it depends on where Dean is at. What I saw at the end of the episode was Dean patting Cas's shoulder and then rolling his eyes as he walked away. Did anyone else take that scene that way? Like Dean is already defeated by the blade but is pretending to be normal? It would be interesting if that was what Sam meant, not that Dean was losing a fight, but that he recognizes that Dean isn't himself any more.
Again yes! Although I was more creeped out by Dean's expression there than seeing defeat.. I wondered in that moment if the real Dean, Sam's brother is already gone. It reminded me of the scene in an early season 6 episode when Sam was confessing to Dean about how "troubled" he was and basically pleading with him for understanding and then Sam turns and his face goes completely flat and unemotional and I was like "what the hell?" This was like that for me only a bit more subtle. I wouldn't be surprised if we get a few episodes of soulless Dean; maybe he's already plotting on how to kill his brother seeing as how the mark demands it. I really think Sam's answer lays in Lucifer, the creator of the mark. Metatron said during his interrogation that the resolution lies "at the source." All this time I assumed he meant Cain, but I am beginning to wonder if he meant Lucifer, the creator and bestower of the mark. Sam has something Lucifer wants…. Sam himself, so maybe he can bargain with one of the only creatures left who might be able to do something about the mark. That would be pretty cool if it happened and a MUCH needed boost to Sam's non-existent storyline.
or maybe it will turn out that Death actually DOES like the Winchesters and will do them another favor, possibly in return for them fixing the souls in the veil problem?
That could work too!!
# eilf 2015-02-18 21:22
My reply to this posted in the wrong place but I wanted to say that I love:
Sam and Dean could be real if you just looked in the right place at the wrong time.
# E 2015-02-18 21:36
I suppose that could also be the wrong place at the right time…
# eilf 2015-02-18 21:18
Hi E, Right back at ya :D I am glad that wasn't just me, I hadn't seen any other comment about it, and I was wondering if I was seeing things.
Although I was more creeped out by Dean's expression there than seeing defeat.. I wondered in that moment if the real Dean, Sam's brother is already gone. It reminded me of the scene in an early season 6 episode when Sam was confessing to Dean about how "troubled" he was and basically pleading with him for understanding and then Sam turns and his face goes completely flat and unemotional and I was like "what the hell?"
Actually by 'defeat' I meant the bit of Dean that is likely still a proto-demon had taken over (like you say). Jensen has pulled this thing several times this season where the expression on his face has been interpreted as shame or sorrow or exhaustion but could be seen as angry frustration quickly hidden. And yes, exactly! That is exactly the scene I was thinking of with Soulless!Sam :D
I think that Dean pulled a fast one over everyone with the blade. If he had given it back to Crowley it would be VERY hard to get it back, but giving it to Castiel .... well he has leverage over Cas (or Cas might fall for a trick of some sort), so it doesn't matter that he doesn't know where it is, it will be infinitely easier to get it back from Cas. Dean was waaaayy too casual in his question about where Castiel had hidden it.
# E 2015-02-18 21:40
Maybe we are FINALLY going to get that truly dark and scary Dean that we didn't get at the start of the season… a Dean whose well and truly gone. I'd love to think that he's living in the bunker and quietly planning Sam's demise while Sam's asleep in the next room. It would play out like a tense thriller… like Wait Until Dark, where the blind woman is being stalked and her stalker is in her apartment and watching her every move and she doesn't even know it. Now that could be awesome. I only hope that the rest of the writers are up to it.
# eilf 2015-02-18 21:56
Wait Until Dark is great as a thriller! And some Sam subtly protecting himself with tattoos and less sleep, and a lock on his door etc. would be both logical and hair-raising (it would raise the scare stakes a good bit). I would love for it to be that Sam is aware that Dean is 'gone', but is feeling more sorry for him than anything: "Dean's in trouble" is a puzzle to be fixed not an 'at least he dies human'.
# E 2015-02-19 05:56
Agreed. One thing that's bugging me still ATM is the lack of connection back to canon…I'd like Sam to mention his past in relation to Dean's present. I'd like Dean (when he's all better!) to realize that maybe he could have been a bit more understanding about what sam went through all those years ago. When Cain mentioned to Dean about Dean (and Sam too, although that part got cut) were part of the Cain/Able bloodline, my mouth fell open in shock! What's this? Continuity? and CANON? Wow!
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-20 04:02
Hi guys! Wow, I'd totally be on board with something like that. Like Sam knows something's wrong, but he didn't overhear Cain and Dean (I don't think he did) so he doesn't know exactly what, so he keeps an eye out, while Dean is actually secretly plotting behind his back! I wouldn't say no to another cat and mouse chase scene through the bunker as well.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-18 21:49
Oh I'm not saying that Dean is going to do a Cain on Sam - I can't see them going that far...or maybe they will? I mean Dean became a demon afterall. I don't see how they could pull that off and still bring Sam back but hey, it's Supernatural and they can't kill off one of their 2 main characters like that...but after the fight with Cain was all said and done I dont think he was being completely honest with TFW. We'll have to see. And based on the previews, I dont really believe he will run either that was just me being stupid. :) I wonder if Sam is just reading Dean and because he knows him so well he can see where Deans head is at right now or if he actually heard the conversation between Dean and Cain? I sincerely doubt Dean will be spilling that bit of news to Sam/Cas unless he has to. I can't imagine what Dean must be feeling right now - no cure in sight, he just got the news the MOC will drive him to kill Cas and ultimately his beloved brother, plus the fact that he killed the only person who can put him out of his misery...(that is unless Cas can which is unknown at this point), not to mention he's probably immortal and bound to become a demon eventually. Wow. No wonder he wanted to sleep for four days. I wanna take a nap anytime I'm faced with housework!!! :)

One thing I thought was really cool was how they shot the scene in the Impala when Sam and Dean were driving up to the prison gates. It was like we the viewers were in the back seat along for the ride!!! I don't remember them doing that quite this way before. Very cool! Really brought you into the story in a personal/intima te? way. Fantastic episode!
# anonymousN 2015-02-19 02:46
Hi, Percysowner,Sha ron..How was the episode.Does Sam have enough quality lines?Does it look like Sam has enough part in the future other than hand wringing and telling that he is worried for Dean?As a Sam fan I getting progressively diappointed with the episodes in season 10.I have not watched the last three episodes and am just following them through the reviews and comments here.Your opinions have normally aligned with mine.So I hope you can give me a general overview of what Sam did in this episode and is there anything whch suggets that Sam has more to do than Cas or Crowley and will have equal screen time as Dean not being the background worrywart.
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-20 04:30
Hi anonymousN, I know you addressed your comment to Percy and Sharon, but if I may, as someone who's been a bit disappointed with Sam's story lately, I do absolutely think you should watch this episode anyway. One of the best of the season IMO.

As for Sam's role, there was some nice Impala banter at the beginning between Sam and Dean while headed to the case. Dean figured out pretty quickly that it was Cain they needed to go after, and Sam was trying to find him in the car next scene. He also found Cain's next target all on his own. He got to voice his opinions on the plan to trap Cain, and played his own role in helping with the execution of that plan. Yes, he didn't get to do much about the actual killing of Cain, but there was a Sam-initiated brotherly hug, and he was quite heartbreakingly perceptive about Dean's condition/state of mind by the end of the episode. Also, judging by that perception, there's enough reason to believe that Sam will certainly play a role in either getting rid of the Mark later on or doing damage control or something, so theories abound. (There are some pretty awesome ones here already).
Oh, and there wasn't a glimmer of knocked out/tied up/damsel in distress Sammy in sight, so there's that ;)
# anonymousN 2015-02-20 07:05
Hi,Painted wolf..If I am not wrong its been sometime since you have commented.Thank s for the reply.I think I have what you people call a pet peeve.I have to watch episodes in chronological order.I was not like this when i read Harry Potter..but now after I am older I have developed this thing.I do not mind Sam not being part of killing Cain if Sam has other things to do.When Sam has as much time as Cas and Crowley or less that is what worries me.If Sam does not have much in mark of Cain story then it would be enough if he has the interaction part so that we can delve into sam's brain or heart.When Dean,Cas etc remind Sam of his mistakes i would like Sam to not just take it but remind them of what they did.Or the show itself remind us of their parts.A Tracy for Dean that is.
I really am thankful for your input and hope i get the love back.
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-20 08:16
Yes, I don't comment as much as I used to. I'll admit I haven't been feeling the normal love for SPN this season that I normally do, so that's probably in part why I'm not so active on the boards anymore, even though I still read almost everything (well, that and life sometimes gets in the way). Just figured I'll throw my thoughts in now, since I positively loved this episode, despite the fact that I haven't truly, properly enjoyed an episode since at least the mid-season finale.

I totally understand what you're saying about Sam's role in the show. For a few episodes, I was rather thoroughly upset that Sam seemed to be relegated to wallpaper filled with looks of concern and little else, so I was really rather pleasantly surprised that I enjoyed this one the whole way through, and was even on the edge of my seat towards the end.

I really hope you do too. My love is back for now, and just hope it stays that way.
# njspnfan 2015-02-19 07:42
Cain said that Dean is living Cain's life in reverse, and that he would eventually kill Crowley, Castiel, and finally Sam, and that killing Sam would turn Dean in to the savage that Cain is. If Dean truly were living Cain's life in reverse, then wouldn't killing Sam break the curse of the Mark of Cain? That would be an interesting twist in the story, wouldn't it?
# NOLANOLA 2015-02-19 10:23
you and alice are killing me with theory's. :):D:p;););)
# E 2015-02-19 17:17
Maybe I'm a bit on the slow side, but I am not even sure what Cain meant by "you're living my life in reverse," how so exactly? He killed his brother first then became the courage of earth and Dean will supposedly be the scourge of earth and then kill his brother? I am not sure why it matters. I suppose that their lives in reverse could include the breaking of the mark through killing Sam, but I am not sure that TPTB would have the guts to go in that direction. Of course Sam would be revived, that's how this show goes after all, but I think something like that would permanently upset the balance between the brothers, so I don't think it will happen. I was thinking that Dean has to NOT kill Sam in the heat of the moment, fight off the mark in that crucial act and it will break the curse…. maybe. I'd rather have Sam find and use a cure… he SOOO needs the win and the plot line.
# eilf 2015-02-19 20:23
E I think that might be exactly what they mean. assume that the order is Lucifer gives Cain the mark then Cain kills Abel (actually Superwiki says it was kill first, then mark, but it isn't clear in the text - and canon is mutable anyway) then goes on the rampage. Dean will rampage, get it under control a bit, realize (or learn, maybe from using the demon tablet to go talk to Lucifer in hell, I mean that should be Sam's storyline but it won't be) that he has to kill his brother so that the mark can be removed from humanity forever. Sam will volunteer to be sacrificed, Dean will discover that the choice is between Dean being a ripper and destroying the world or sacrificing Sam - and choose the safety of the world. Sam will put into action what he already knows about what he will do for Dean. It would make some sense of the past 3 seasons. It won't have been worth only having had Sam be 'there' in each seasons finales, but it would make a reasonable conclusion to the storyline where everyone discovers who they really are, or need to be.

At which stage I feel like I would like to see Sam stay dead. Sam is too complex and fascinating of a character to be treated the way he has by these writers over the past 3 seasons. So, Sam gets a win, he saves Dean as should have happened beginning of season 8 and he gets to be done.

Jared could play another character, it would probably be more interesting for him anyway. maybe Lucifer might escape while Dean is talking to him and takes on Sam's appearance to screw with Dean, he could be the big bad of season 11.

Possibly what might happen is that some higher power might take notice of these two brothers, who have saved each other through everything, being about to both be destroyed (Sam by dying and Dean by doing it) for the good of humanity and swoop in as a literal Deus ex machina (some writer needs to be brazen enough to write a finale episode of a show and call it Deus Ex Machina) and save them both. Which would mean we get the sacrifice moment (a 'real' version of the gun scene in Born Under a Bad Sign .... which I have to admit I love more than is entirely reasonable :-) ), the intent was there so the mark is destroyed, and neither one dies. The 'Deus'; could send them on another quest to repay him..... yeah, ok, this storyline is more farfetched than even the writers have done so far, but I think they don't really have a plan and are writing themselves into a corner to see what happens.
# E 2015-02-20 06:19
Wow… good theories. Do you really think that TPTB would have the guts to kill Sam off and have Jared play Lucifer instead? I am sure Jared would be up for it, he seems willing to do just about anything with his character, but no Sam?

I do think Lucifer will end up being key thought. And I want for that aspect of the story to be SAM'S! It would make ZERO sense for Dean to negotiate with Lucifer as it's Sam that is Lucifer's vessel and Sam that Lucifer wants. Still though, this show has shoved Sam's importance down so much lately that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Lucifer was suddenly and for absolutely no reason whatsoever, in love with Dean (just like Crowley was suddenly and for absolutely no reason whatsoever, suddenly in love with Dean and STILL seems to be in love with Dean. It makes NO SENSE!). Anyway, until we get there, I'd love to see a little cat and mouse going on in the bunker with Dean up nights, stalking about and Sam paranoid, but trying to be supportive. That would be awesome.
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-20 08:23
E, that's exactly what I said in response to your comments above about Dean plotting Sam's demise. Another cat and mouse chase around the bunker! I really want that.
My gut reaction to killing Sam off is just generally Noooooo! I know his story's sort of been crapped on by the writers, but I can't comprehend a Supernatural without Sam, even someone riding around permanently in his meatsuit. It would be very, very interesting yes, but I still want Sam even if it is just the facsimile of him we've been seeing lately. Then again, Jared was also awesome as Luci so...
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-02-20 16:29
I had the same thought as you eilf. That Sam will somehow learn what Cain said to Dean and figure out that the only way to permanently remove the MOC from humanity will be for Dean to kill Sam. Sam will of course choose to accept that fate because that's who he is, and somehow he'll convince/trick Dean into going along with this plan. Maybe it wouldn't even be difficult to convince Dean if the influence of the MOC grows stronger now that he's killed Cain with it. But I actually would prefer that he somehow trick Dean to spare Dean the trauma of choosing to cold-bloodedly kill him. Maybe Sam will resort to drinking demon blood again to convince Dean that he's gone darkside, which would allow Dean to feel justified in killing him.This story line would actually fit in with Sam's (miniscule) emotional arc from Season 8/9 of being ready and willing to die, especially if it will save Dean and serve the greater good. I just can't figure out how Sam can then be saved/resurrect ed. Maybe Berens can figure something out, since he seems to have opened the door to a Sam quest with that last brilliant scene in the episode.
# percysowner 2015-02-20 16:59
I suspect that if we are right, and Sam has to die to save Dean then the "fact" that souls aren't moving on and are stuck in the Veil will suddenly become important again. They spent like an entire episode built around the fact that souls can't move on and they have never, ever referenced it again, except when they killed off Tessa. I'm thinking that the plan is to have the fact that Sam can't move on become how he is pulled back into returning to life. The writers haven't mentioned what is happening in The Veil because they want us to "forget" about people being stuck in it so we will be "surprised" to find out Sam hasn't moved on. Just like they "surprised" us by making Dean a demon.
# LEAH 2015-02-20 17:52
Which is where Metatron/Cas may come in handy. Even the mere thought of Dean killing Sam just tears me up, though. Even if he eventually gets brought back. After all the times Dean said he wouldn't and couldn't and all the times he saved Sam from death (rightly or wrongly) it would be very traumatic to see that onscreen. ACK! But someone from the show tweeted that this finale is going to be worse than the last one so I wouldn't be surprised.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 18:07
That would be so unbelievably awfully heartbreaking but if they want to go for a big season finale, that would be it! How tragic that after everything Sam is yet to do and how hard Dean has worked to not succumb to the MOC (and I loved that line of Cains when he accused Dean of holding back so that he could leave the ring the same as he had entered it - "sob"), it would all end in the absolutely worse possible way. What would be even worse is if they thought (or just Dean, if he hasn't told TFW about Cains prophecy) since he hadn't killed Crowley or Cas that Sam was safe... Ah! Here I go again depressing myself!!! I think we all better hang onto our collective hats cause I think it will be something heartwrenching!
# leah 2015-02-20 19:38
Yes unbelievably heartbreaking Aly. It hurt to see Dean run slowly through with that blade last finale. It was awful. But Sam! Dean chose his path, he was hurting, but he went down that road. All Sam has tried to do is love, support and save Dean. It would be an unselfish sacrifice and maybe he could come back but it would just be gut wrenching to watch.:(
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 21:19
You know whichever way it goes the season finale is going to be b r u t a l on our poor fangirl feelings. Everythings been on such a slow simmer that you just know it's all going to blow up in their faces. Why do I get the strong feeling that there isn't going to be so much as a semblance of a happy ending leading into next season? Ahhh my poor heart can't take much more...
# E 2015-02-20 23:26
I don't want Dean to kill Sam because I think that it would permanently affect the balance between the brothers and create all out warfare in the fandom. I'd like to see Sam sacrifice himself to Lucifer in exchange for him dissolving the mark off of Dean. That would be really great IMO, because Sam would get the win, decide his OWN fate, and show Dean that he truly would do pretty much anything for him. It would make a nice parallel to the forced possession at the start of season 9 to have Sam offer himself up for possession at the end of season 10. Besides, it's not Dean's turn to die this year. HA!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-02-21 00:17
You make a good point about the balance between the brothers being changed forever. But I kind of think they already went there in Soul Survivor because even when Dean still wasn't fully demon anymore he still would've smashed Sam's head with a hammer if Cas had not intervened. That was actually something that bothered me about that episode- they show Sam wondering to Cas why Dean still wanted to be a demon even after he was at least partly human again, when what Sam really should've been wondering was why a partly human Dean still wanted to kill him. I honestly don't know how I want this to be resolved. The problem with bringing Lucifer back into play (and boy would I love to see Mark P again!) is that he trumps anyone else on the board, so where do you go from there? Honestly, I'm not sure how I'd like them to resolve this, I only know that if Dean has to ultimately "rescue" a helpless Sam from Dean himself I will be really upset.
# eilf 2015-02-21 07:58
That bothers me too. That Sam doesn't seem to remember it, and that he doesn't seem to be protecting himself against Dean going bad. And really that that moment, where Sam would rather be killed than attack Dean with the intention of killing him, is a moment that has been forgotten.

ETA: E I didn't see your comment before, I like it, but it does pull all the chances for being a hero from Dean for the finale and honestly that won't happen, Dean does need a heroic win having gotten himself into this mess, and if he is not involved in solving it all it will do is make him even MORE guilty and grumpy next season.

Dean needs to make an actual hard decision that affects Dean. People don't like what Sam said in the Purge, Jared doesn't like it, it was said because Sam was hurting, but there is good deal of truth in it (the bit about Dean's sacrifices, not the last bit).
# E 2015-02-21 17:12
I like it, but it does pull all the chances for being a hero from Dean for the finale and honestly that won't happen, Dean does need a heroic win having gotten himself into this mess, and if he is not involved in solving it all it will do is make him even MORE guilty and grumpy next season.
I guess that's my problem eilf… I get the feeling that everybody already thinks Dean's actions this season (and last) ARE heroic. I don't think anyone of TPTB think of the MoC as being Dean's fault or a mistake, I think that they see it as an heroic man fighting against terrible odds and the fact that he's having to fight what is actually his own fault in the first place hasn't even occurred to any of them. The fact that we've had episodes like Bad Boys and the lack of Sam POV and Sam blaming for what Dean's going through now all tells me that we are supposed to be seeing Dean as a hero already, not as someone who REALLY needs to learn a thing or two. I think the plan was and always has been to show Sam how Dean's way is the best way… how Dean truly represents family, that Sam needs to be more like Dean. So basically I think you are right in that Dean will need to be the hero at the end of the season, save Sam, save himself, save everybody, cure the mark etc… and show Sam how it's supposed to be done. And then Sam will thank him for it and say "you pulled a Dean Winchester!."
# AlyCat22 2015-02-21 18:01
No, you have Dean confused with Charlie. She's gonna come back from Rome and save EVERYBODY, don't cha know...and look fabulous while doing it for the Tumblrs crowds benefit... Kidding. Sort of.
# E 2015-02-21 21:01
We'll THAT'S probably true and while she saves everyone, Sam will ask her how to run his computer and Dean will ask for a lesson in hand to hand combat. I like Charlie but her Mary Sueishness is a bit hard to take at times.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-22 02:30
Amen Padaleski!!!!!
# eilf 2015-02-22 13:49
I get the feeling that everybody already thinks Dean's actions this season (and last) ARE heroic. I don't think anyone of TPTB think of the MoC as being Dean's fault or a mistake, I think that they see it as an heroic man fighting against terrible odds and the fact that he's having to fight what is actually his own fault in the first place hasn't even occurred to any of them. The fact that we've had episodes like Bad Boys and the lack of Sam POV and Sam blaming for what Dean's going through now all tells me that we are supposed to be seeing Dean as a hero already, not as someone who REALLY needs to learn a thing or two.
Yes I know *sigh* how anyone can write Season 9 and expect people to get out of it that THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE HE COULD DO! it's so heroic *swoon* I do not know. But they do seem to be saying exactly that. And people do seem to be reading it exactly like that. It is like the show is being written by teenage fanboys (actually at least one of the writers has come out and said he writes his episodes for his teenage son (a Deanfan), so ....)

I wouldn't mind quite so much if only in the same breath as they are implying that the MOC stuff was heroic on Dean's part they are perfectly capable of having (Demon)Dean (a Dean who is a demon BECAUSE he took the MOC) say that everything that has happened to Sam in Sam's life (Demon blood, his mothers death etc) was Sam's fault and made him a burden on Dean.

Who writes this stuff and can't see the issues? Who can possibly be this terrible?

# E 2015-02-22 15:42
It is like the show is being written by teenage fanboys (actually at least one of the writers has come out and said he writes his episodes for his teenage son (a Deanfan), so ....)
Huh… go read Adam Glass's twitter some time… really nauseating stuff. He writes about Teen Dean as though he invented him out of thin air…he's so smitten it's embarrassing and he's so self serving it's insanely irritating.
# eilf 2015-02-22 16:05
Yeah, it's Adam Glass I mean. He is my least favorite of the writers. I suppose you need a healthy sized ego to be in the public eye ...
# lala2 2015-02-21 21:31
I hope Dean kills Sam. I want to see that, esp. if killing Sam removes the Mark. That would be mildly entertaining and would fulfill something the show has been hinting at since S2.

The only good thing to come out of this episode - for me - was the idea that Dean is going to have murderous impulses toward Sam. Something is needed, IMO, to jump start this boring MOC story so if that's it, then bring it on.
# percysowner 2015-02-22 00:11
The MOC and Demon!Dean had the potential to be good stories. However for either of them to be involving, the writers would have had to be willing to show Dean doing SOMETHING wrong and that is not in their play book. So Demon!Dean's worst act was bad karaoke and being a poor boyfriend. Sam is going to go dark in his quest to save Dean so that when Dean kills Sam it will be all Sam's fault. Dean had to kill evil Sam because Dean is Dean the good. Sam will be brought back so Dean can harangue him about what a horrible brother and person he is and so Sam can grovel.
# lala2 2015-02-22 10:58
Percy, you know I agree w/you. Both the DD and MOC stories had great potential. I was excited about DD but had a feeling the show would be unwilling to allow Dean to truly do anything bad, and I was proven right. DD was the most sanitized demon ever created. He was so normal that I wonder why they even bothered making him a demon. What was the point of that?

Now, both Metatron and Cain described an interesting MOC!Dean - one filled w/a rage and blood lust, a burning desire to murder - but that Dean NEVER appeared on screen so their words rang hollow to me. I have yet to see Dean consumed by a blood lust or murderous rage. That would actually be interesting to me, but it has not yet happened. That's why this episode didn't work for me. I feel no urgency when it comes to the Mark b/c the show hasn't really presented it as a problem in my eyes.. Right now, the show is talking a big game w/r/t the Mark, but not showing me its effects.

So, for me, the only salvation this season could bring is to put into action Metatron's and Cain's words re: Dean.
# eilf 2015-02-22 14:29
Actually Demon Dean did have a serious go at killing one person ... he was screwing around with another one that he wanted to destroy emotionally, but there is only one who he tried to destroy both ways.

It doesn't seem to be important though, it hasn't been mentioned since. *shrug*
# E 2015-02-22 15:46
Who? I guess that shows how little impact that particular killing had… I can't even remember. The writers probably spent the whole episode mitigating Dean's actions so we would be to hard on him. But for the life of me, I can't remember who he destroyed emotionally and physically….. crickets…..
# LEAH 2015-02-22 15:52
He definitely had more than a "go" at Lester.:) But Sam he tried to destroy both ways.
# percysowner 2015-02-22 15:55
I think the killing was Lester, and they made sure we would know that was all Sam's fault. He tried to destroy Ann Marie emotionally and he tried to destroy Sam emotionally and physically. Those are my guesses.
# eilf 2015-02-22 16:10
Leah's right and you've got it exactly Percy, though it was principally Cole he tried to destroy emotionally - he said that was his aim, to Sam in the car, which made it all the clearer when he did the same thing to Sam during the cure. He didn't even remember doing the same to Ann Marie.
# E 2015-02-22 16:14
eilf… you can't be talking about LESTER???! Lester was such a douchbag… talk about mitigating Dean's guilt, talk about someone who had it coming! And it was implied that Dean even saved the innocent wife to boot. It didn't stop Dean from criticizing Sam about it though. I guess when Dean killed Lester then Lester had it coming, but when Sam used Lester to find a cross roads demon Sam did something pretty shady and all of a sudden Lester's a victim. I've always been aware of the double standard on this show, but having the same character be used as the double standard for both Sam AND Dean… well.. that's a first I must say.
# eilf 2015-02-22 16:45
You know I thought I was (including Lester), but I realize now I changed my mind and didn't include him. Ok to recap. Percy said that Demon!Dean's worst sin was Karaoke (I am not sure she is entirely wrong there, the karaoke was brutal) but he did, that we know of, kill 1 person (Lester), attempt to destroy one person (Cole) and (nearly) do both to one person (Sam) and that has been so thoroughly forgotten in-show that we tend to forget it too. From the in-show perspective trying to kill Sam ought to be a bigger deal than the other two, but you could almost argue that Dean hasn't even mentioned it.
# LEAH 2015-02-22 16:46
The only thing I thought Sam did wrong there was use douche bag Lester to lure a demon. Which was no "whose the bigger monster" moment. It seemed tame compared to other things that they have done. It wasn't Sam's fault DB Lester leapt at the deal. Sam tried to stop him. In my book what followed was on him. As for demonDean he just took the opportunity to kill Lester, seemed like a better idea to him at the time. If Lester hadn't been there I am sure he would have killed the wife just as easily. No altruism there. That was how I saw it but I have seen people make Lester into a poor victim, the man who came to witness his wife's death which he made a deal to have done. He probably would have done it himself had he had the nerve.
# percysowner 2015-02-22 17:39
I do agree with you about Lester. The thing is the SHOW has Dean make the statement that Lester was Sam's fault and then they never do anything to contradict that statement. People remember what is said, especially when the person saying it is seen as the voice of reason, and right and is the person whose POV we see. Yes, Dean was a demon, but Dean, in general, is the one who says what is right and what is wrong, when Sam can and can't be forgiven, when Sam is being a good person or a bad person. So putting those words in Dean's mouth makes them what he show wants us to believe. They don't even give Sam a defense. Just as in season eight, where we were never privy to Sam's immediate reaction to Dean and Cas disappearing so the only view we were ever given of why Sam didn't look was Dean's contemptuous "you hit a dog and met a girl", the word from the writers is Sam is responsible for Lester's death. Dean would not have killed the wife, because he actively looked for someone else to kill. If Sam hadn't intervened neither Lester nor his wife would have been in any danger whatsoever and Dean would have continued to sate the Mark by killing demons, which is what he does all the time.

My objections are that the show refuses to ever dispute Dean's view of things. They refuse to give voice to Sam's thoughts or feelings. This is just one instance of many, where Dean condemns Sam and nobody, not even Sam himself, defends Sam. And I'm really sick and tired of it.
# LEAH 2015-02-22 18:05
I know you are sick of it and of a lot of things for a long time. My only issue with this is that we aren't all swayed by what one character or another says. I don't take every word Dean says as the gospel or do I take it as him being a mouthpiece for the show. I have formed my opinions from what I perceive to be what the show is saying and it isn't necessarily what you or E or eilf or others see or perceive to be the message and that's fine. It's just different. I know people who see it similar to how I do also. That Sam is not always wrong and that Dean is not always the voice of reason. Yes I agree that the show has failed at times to give Sam a voice and a proper POV. No argument here. They could do SO much better on that score.
# E 2015-02-23 09:03
My only issue with this is that we aren't all swayed by what one character or another says. I don't take every word Dean says as the gospel or do I take it as him being a mouthpiece for the show.
We know Leah… we really do. No one is singling you out in this. You've always been a reasonable and fair fan as are most of the people here, always willing to do the work of digging beneath the surface of what's begin said and shown on our screens to give Sam the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately though, I don't think most other fans are willing to do so. And quite frankly, why should they have to? Why is it the job of the fan to try and find something positive in what Sam does or says and to try and find the flaw in what Dean is doing or saying? Why is it always that way? I think what Percys and I are objecting to is the stance that the SHOW takes. It's biased towards Dean… it just simply is. Lester is a great example of that bias: Demon Dean killed him, and the shows take was that A) Lester had it coming (he was reprehensible, remorseless, gloating, cowardly, sadistic) and that B) Dean ended up saving the wife who was completely innocent and basically cleans up Sam's mess in the process. Painting Lester in those terms assures us that Dean will not be criticized for killing him. But when it's made clear that Sam is the one who lured Lester to the Crossroads in the first place? Well, the shows take is that Sam did this awful thing by manipulating an innocent who was ignorant of the supernatural until Sam came along. They framed him as being "the bigger monster" more so than the person who actually killed Lester off. Weather you, or other reasonable fans saw it that way is irrelevant; that is the stance that the show was taking in the matter. Dean openly criticizes Sam on screen for what he did with Lester. So Lester represents one thing for Dean and another thing for Sam on the show to put two different spins on our take on what happened with Lester which makes what Sam did appear negative. Instead of letting us make up our own minds, the show manipulated in two different ways the same scenario to paint one aspect as being more positive and the other as being more negative. This is what Percys and I and probably a few other staunch defenders of Sam have a problem with. Fans will react as they react and some fans will be reasonable and some will be fanatical and there is nothing that can be done about that… but the writing and framing of issues relating to the boys BY THE SHOW is so lopsided that there is no way for any fan to get a fair representation of what's going on. Sam is criticized for working with Ruby, but Dean isn't criticized for working with Crowley. Sam is criticized for sympathizing with and trusting a monster (the Rugaru, Amy) but Dean isn't criticized for working with and trusting a monster (Benny, who then becomes the most noble and helpful monster this show has ever produced). Then to add insult to injury Sam is shown as being petty and suspicious for not agreeing with Dean about Benny and ultimately is shown to be completely wrong about him when Benny makes the ultimate sacrifice to save Sam. Sam is made to apologize to Dean about the Amy issue thus negating entirely Sam's pov in the matter, and the Benny kills are cut from the narrative so that Dean's judgement about trusting the vampire won't then paint his trust in a bad light. THIS is what we are talking about, how the show manipulates events to always put Dean is a good light but have no problem manipulating events to show Sam's culpability even when it's negligible. Or worse, not showing Sam's POV at all so that we only get one side of the story (the not looking story, the possession). It's pretty hard to see both sides of a story when only one side is presented requiring fans to "make up" a second side for themselves… well, there are plenty of fans out there who aren't going to do it. And why should they? If they can create details for one side of an argument then why can't they create details for the other? It's truly maddening and it's NEVER Dean's side of an issue that ends up being lacking…. never. We just want some fairness and equality in how the brothers' various issues are represented by having both sides be shown equally, with all of an issues positive and negative aspects left intact so that we can decide for ourselves how we feel about things. We are tired of the "spin" that is put on things to manipulate the outcome and our feelings on the matter. It's pretty hard to sympathize with a character who's actions are always shown in a negative light (Sam's criticism of the possession becomes the bigger crime than the possession itself due mostly to overly harsh dialog and ZERO exploration of his side of the issue) and its pretty hard to criticize a character who's actions are routinely sanitized to look as favorable as possible with all negative aspects downplayed (the possession, the MoC, the Benny issue, the alteration of the Cain and Abel story). And quite frankly, most fans aren't going to spend time reading between the lines especially if they favor the character that is being made to look good and getting all the insight. It's a testament to you that you are willing to do so, but most fans won't. They'll take things at face value and lets face it, face value is Dean is right and Sam is wrong as far as the shows take in things.

And have you noticed that "reading between the lines" with Sam is always to try and find some kind of positive in what appears to always be negative and that "reading between the lines" for Dean is about trying to find any kind of fault in what is always framed as positive? Why is that? Why is it never the other way around? And this has been going on for YEARS now.. not for a bit of time. Sam's POV has been ignored not sometimes, not a little bit, but all the time since season 4, which is now over 1/2 the run of this show; it's been this way more than it hasn't been this way. And it's gotten worse, not better as time has gone on, with the past two years being essentially laughable in the Sam POV department. How Sam could possibly have come out on the wrong end of the possession is baffling to me, but somehow the PTB managed to make Dean the victim in the proceedings while making Sam ungrateful and responsible for the MoC to boot.

That is my longwinded response, and I really don't expect you to agree with me on this, It's my opinion only. No one is singling you out in all this, you are one of the most fair fans out there, but I, and I am sure Percys as well, feel compelled to mention this inequality every time we see it, for Sam's sake if for nothing else. And we've been seeing it a LOT lately which is why we are mentioning it….repeatedly.
# LEAH 2015-02-23 12:48
No problem E, I know what I am getting into. :) I am just not working that hard to see things the way I do. The simple truth is we all see things differently. That's all. I don't interpret some of the things the show does in the same way. Period. I am ok with the views of others, even if I disagree, but theirs is not the only view. Honestly some of the more caustic, snide, comments get to me after awhile. Not the honest opinions, frustrations, and even anger, about characterizatio n and the show perspective (as yours usually are, I can respect that) but the backlash against one of the characters I care about because it is perceived he is the golden favored one.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-23 15:09
# eilf 2015-02-23 16:30
Hi Leah, I have to say you are a staunch (Sam-friendly) Deangirl and I raise my hat to you. :)

(E is right though, it isn't you that a clearer/fairer viewpoint storyline is needed for)

I did see a rumor that Jared said that better Samgirl times are on their way ....
# E 2015-02-23 17:50
No offense to Jared, cause I do so love the guy, but I'll believe it when I see it, and not all over the cutting room floor. ;)
# eilf 2015-02-23 18:23
Ah well he does have the gift of the gab alright ....

Honestly the fact that we KNOW he will tell us exactly what we want to hear, whether it is true or not, and we will still fall for it every time means he is an excellent actor if nothing else :D

Puppy-dog eyes it is ....
# AlyCat22 2015-02-23 18:48
So Jared passes on information that should make Ssam girls happy, nay - ecstatic - and you dis him? I would tend to believe him regardless since you know, he may not have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, but he is the actor who portrays Sam! Not to mention he is the one with all the inside information... It's a business and he does have to do his share of PR but I don't think he out right lies to fans trying to dupe them.
# eilf 2015-02-23 19:41
Wow .... well that's an interpretation of what I said, true enough.
One of the things I love best about Jared is his absolute total loyalty to a show he is on and to the co-stars of that show. In this show his absolute commitment to his (on-show) brother is just wonderful and I applaud him completely. But with any of his co-stars, it doesn't matter who they are or how they are perceived outside of the show, he is with them.
Other than that I don't feel inclined to have to defend my comment since it wasn't meant particularly seriously.
# E 2015-02-23 21:26
Excuse me, but I think you missed mine and eilf's point (and are being rude to boot). I said that I'll believe it when I see it and not on the cutting room floor because Jared's scenes have a nasty habit of getting cut. I did not call him a liar or even insinuate that… that's your interpretation and an incorrect one… I meant that Jared may in fact see more Sam story in the scripts and is trying to reassure the fans (which is telling in and of itself) but that is ZERO indication that we will ever SEE any of it on our television screens. I stand by my comment.
# LEAH 2015-02-23 19:05
Thanks eilf! Stubborn is more like it. With too much time on my hands. I really need a hobby.:D I hope Jared is right, I really do.
# eilf 2015-02-23 19:43
How about a job making wigs Leah? :P
# AlyCat22 2015-02-22 02:38
I don't get why people are so convinced that Dean killing Sam would REMOVE the MOC? Cain himself said that killing Sammy is what would drive Dean insane and Dean would become as Cain. Cain said nothing about MOC erasure, he said there is no cure. Where does Sams death make any sense that it would end the curse? Even if Sam voluntarily gives his life it would still entail Dean being the one to end it which would result in Cains scenario coming to fruition...
# E 2015-02-22 06:19
I think the idea that killing Sam might remove the mark is coming from speculation about the line Cain said to Dean… "You are living my life in reverse." This along with news from the actors that the final episode of the season is a tragic gut wrencher, have lead to speculation that Dean might need to kill Sam and that Sam might need to allow himself to be sacrificed willingly and that would somehow remove the mark. It's just a speculation line of thinking, trying to figure out what Cain mean about his "life in reverse." I am not sure that I buy into it. I think Dean needs to NOT kill Sam in order to cure or remove the mark assuming that it would even work, but that isn't very dramatic because basically he's been doing that all along and is doing it now as we speak. I am not sure how NOT killing Sam could be made into a crisis moment that could become a suitable cliff hanger or the tragic kick to the gut we've been hearing that it is.
# lala2 2015-02-22 11:06
Cain said Dean was living in his life in reverse. IIRC, Cain got the Mark, killed his brother, went on a murderous rampage, calmed down and then maintained control of the Mark. The way Dean's story is playing out appears to be exactly in reverse of that. I assume - or rather I hope - we're going to see the murderous rampage next b/c as I've said, I've been horrifically bored this year so Dean going on a murderous rampage could prove to be entertaining. This should lead to Dean killing Sam (i.e., supposedly the finale is something we'd never expect and I'm sure most ppl don't expect Dean to kill Sam) and then the Mark being removed from him.

I'm fine w/this. I need some action this year, to give this season a purpose, and Dean killing Sam could do that.
# LEAH 2015-02-22 03:30
I know what you are saying lala but I would have a very tough time with it. I think it would be so hard to watch. Sam dying or Dean dying is bad enough but Dean killing Sam? If it comes to be I might have to FF through and will probably still be a mess. It wouldn't be like the other deaths. Sam's violent death at his brothers hand, I just can't...This is coming from someone who really doesn't get all that emotional at most episodes, it takes a lot. He can have murderous impulses, but no slow-motion stabbing of Sam. OK, show?:(
# lala2 2015-02-22 11:17
I hear you, Leah. There was a time when I would have been outraged too, but for me, Carver has driven all the brotherly love and "feels" out of my system this year. Haha! Yes, I still love the brothers but they could both try to murder each other this year, and I would be like, "Yay!! Something is happening. Let's see what happens next." At this moment in time, I can't imagine myself feeling sad. And, plus, we know Sam will return unless Jared is quitting the show or something.

This has been a very boring year of Supernatural. I know many here enjoyed this episode but it was just another "meh" episode for me so Dean killing Sam is the most interesting thing that could happen this year IMO.
# LEAH 2015-02-22 13:40
People pop back from death on SPN like whack-a-moles, it shouldn't bother me so much but it does. :)
# lala2 2015-02-22 22:48
I understand. I guess the episode would really have to move me for it to bother me, but I understand it would be upsetting to you. It probably won't happen anyway b/c it sounds interesting to me. Haha!
# E 2015-02-22 15:57
It's very true that SPN hasn't really been very interesting this year and Dean killing Sam would surely create a stir, but to my mind that's like putting butter cream icing on a moldy cake; what's the point when the rest of it can't measure up? It's really too bad that they are being so blah and bland with this show. It's in it's 10th season, it's got at least one more season coming and a built in audience of die hard faithfuls that will always watch. They should be taking all manner of insane edgy risks with this show right now…. The show should turn experimental or non-linear or non-verbal (imagine an entirely visual episode) push the envelope in terms of narrative, violence, scares and weirdness! The audience isn't going anywhere and we are VERY lenient with what this show does and appreciate the risks it's always taken. But instead of pushing boundaries at a time when they are completely safe to do so, they are pulling everything in, becoming formulaic to the point that I can tick off the boxes of the story points as we move through the episode; cold open, brother scene, hunting, anvils, audience pandering, crisis, brotherly talk, end. The audience pandering has become atrocious and the writer pandering (inserting themselves, writing what they want, no consideration for continuity, character history or canon) is at an all time low. It's sad to see.
# lala2 2015-02-22 22:53
As always, excellent post, E! I couldn't agree more w/your every word!
# AlyCat22 2015-02-22 22:59
Vampires, teenagers... What I loved about Executioners Song??? It was an adult written episode for adult viewing. None of this teenage crap we've been so overexposed to and have had shoved down our throats lately. A dark, suspenseful, no nonsense, emotional kick it in the ass like we saw in the past, and you know what? I bet it still drew in the younger demographic they keep shooting for. That's the Supernatural that I know and love! I wish it would come out to play more often!!!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-02-21 00:05
I'm intrigued by your theory about the Veil. It has irked me to no end that they have never addressed it again, so maybe they have been saving it for this situation. I'm just not sure how/why only Sam would somehow be rescued from the Veil. Wouldn't they try to rescue Kevin as well? Maybe you should submit some script ideas! I like your suggestion better than much of what we've seen this year.
# percysowner 2015-02-22 00:08
I kind of think they set up the idea of people being unable to leave The Veil because they intended to have Dean kill Sam and then they needed a way to bring Sam back WITHOUT Dean resorting to 1) a demon deal 2) Cas reanimating Sam's body without his soul 3) Cas pulling Sam down from Heaven 4) finding yet another angel that will heal Sam's body without getting proper consent 5) having the angels decide they are going to bring Sam back so they can give the Apocalypse one more try. Since they had Sam state he's willing to die, Dean pulling him back to life AGAIN really would be a betrayal and a bad, cruel thing and Dean will never be allowed to be seen as being bad, cruel and a betrayer. So Sam will be stuck in the Veil. Because he is stuck in the Veil and not in Heave, he will see Dean floundering because he killed Sam and Sam will give up his peace to save Dean. So Dean gets Sam back but while being totally innocent of any wrong doing whatsoever. That's my guess. If they are feeling like wrapping up the story, Sam will find a way to send the rest of the souls on to Heaven. Sam giving up his peace and happiness will NOT ever be seen as a sacrifice on his part, only what is due to Dean. Yeah, I'm not happy with a lot of how the season is going.
# eilf 2015-02-20 19:28
Well I have to tell you all that that is my BEST case scenario. Honestly no I don't actually think they will kill off Sam, why bother he makes pretty background? (collecting serial killers? This is a character point? The best one you can come up with between you writers? Seriously?) They won't give him a genuine win either.

It is far more likely to be a watered-down version of Swan Song with Sam as the ultimate damsel (probably having been captured and used as bait by Crowley to finallly rid him of BOTH Winchesters) and talking Dean down from killing him and Dean doing what he has been put in charge of for way too long - being the one who gets to decide if Sam lives or dies. All character development and ANY point to the story since the beginning of season 8 lost.

Dean will have thought he killed Castiel - but it will turn out to be merely a scratch and the whole circus will start again next season plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
I could see this being a popular solution for a lot of people, and maybe the show wouldn't lose everyone else, but it will still be a poor solution, and completely not a surprise or shock to anyone.

But I figured I should give you my other option, I like the first one better :P
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-02-21 00:23
I hope so much that you are wrong. But given the writers' treatment of Sam for most of this season and the second half of last season I am very worried that you're right and that Sam will do nothing of significance in ridding Dean of the MOC, and that he will in some way need to be rescued by Dean as he has so many times the past year.
# eilf 2015-02-21 07:46
Yeah, I hope I am wrong about this too :(
# eilf 2015-02-21 07:44
Hi Samanddean10 I see where you are coming from, and if this were an early season I would say yes, if it needed to be done Sam would know that Dean wouldn't be able to do it and it would be a clever move to trick him into it. Problem is though by now we know Dean is capable of deciding to kill Sam when Dean thinks it needs doing (as recently as mid Season 9 he considered it) and we know that Demon!Dean - who apparently Dean is drifting back into being - WILL kill Sam (Episode 10.3). It is actually the thing that Dean needs to learn NOT to do - to feel that he is in charge of Sam's life. If you take this one thing away from him then over 9 seasons Dean has really learned nothing. I am holding onto some faint hope that this was the point of Season 9, cause otherwise there wasn't any point to Season 9.
And if he kills Sam for the reason you suggest, because he feels justified because SAM did bad things (and drinking demon blood never sent Sam on any rampage that was a threat to humanity - being the anointed son of the father of murder, on the other hand can't really end well) then he is still only going to end up feeling guilty. When Sam gets resurrected again he will blame Sam for his guilt, it doesn't solve any of Deans problems, just makes them worse.
And while I love Sam's willingness to do whatever it takes to do the right thing, from MY point of view it would be nice if he got credit for it. Especially as Dean's major issue with Sam all these years is that Sam is not honest with him (and the opposite, that Dean is not honest with Sam, which is just as true, is never dwelt on this way).
If on the other hand Dean has to make an adult decision for himself to go along with a decision that Sam has also made for himself then he gets to learn the difference between guilt and responsibility. One is destructive and the other one is freeing.

I feel that this needs to be an open-eyed, serious, honest agreement between the two of them.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-02-21 09:16
I agree with you that if Sam convinces Dean to kill him in order to eliminate the MOC for all time it would be a fantastic way of making Sam's point from Season 9, that it is Sam's choice alone whether to live or die. After all of the crap from Season 9 of making Sam look in the wrong for being so upset with Dean, such a plot would at the very least implicitly show that Sam was right to be so angry, although my preference would be that this be explicitly acknowledged by Dean. The only problem is that killing Sam under this scenario would still leave Dean feeling horribly guilty because he bears sole responsibility for taking on the MOC, no questions asked, from Cain, so he would be the direct cause of having to kill Sam. And I cannot tolerate the thought of another season with Dean wallowing in guilt about killing him. Please God, let's not have another year, or even another month, of guilt-ridden Dean. Far better would be for Dean to actually take a page from Sam's book - after his TEENSY mistake triggering the apocalypse and freeing Lucifer Sam sucked it up, apologized to all and sundry, and did his best to atone. I loved how in that Season 7 episode Defending your Life Sam told Dean just that, that he'd done everything he could to make things right so he chose to move on and not let guilt cripple him. That, IMO, is the character development we need most from Dean, to accept that all of TFW has screwed up and done horrible things with the goal of fighting evil, and that he, like Sam and Cas, needs to make things right as best he can and let the rest go.But I think what the writers enjoy most is exploring every possible aspect of Dean's psyche and angst, and they would have to enjoy writing for Sam to have him pull a Swan Song here and sacrifice himself. I see no evidence of a willingness to do this. BTW, I don't really think it would be a great choice to have Sam trick Dean into killing him, but there would be a poetic justice aspect that would tickle me-Dean tricked Sam into saving himself (which he still never apologized for) and now Sam tricks Dean into killing him. As Chuck would say, literary symmetry...well , kind of.
# eilf 2015-02-21 11:02
Ah, so many things I agree with .... but the thing is there is Justice (which would look at how the show got to this point from season 1), there's sense (which is taking the damn storyline they outlined since the beginning of Season 8 and acknowledging it while writing future episodes) and there is what will most likely actually happen: 'Dean LOVES Sam, nothing else happened/matter s'
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-19 10:24
Please please please for the love of all that is unholy is this world can someone just off Rowena already???!!!!
Right, now.
The confrontation between Dean and Cain was epic of epic proportions.
Yay for honesty and brotherly camaraderie. Yay for some smart Sam. Yay for Timothy Omundson. Yay for brotherly hugs and angst. Yay for show twisting my stomach and making me flail and breaking my heart again after so long.
I might have more sensible things to say later, but first I’m going to go bask a little. Ahem. Excuse me.
# E 2015-02-19 12:17
I have to agree with you about Rowena…. man is she annoying. This is the only episode that I even remotely could tolerate her. However, I found it totally ironic that she was telling Crowley about how much of a wuss he's become when she's the one that's stealing all of Crowley's cool. Unfortunately, my guess is that she's here to stay for at least the next little while. I think she's going to play into some part of the season long arc… how I am not sure because if SHE'S the one who somehow has the answer to the MoC I think I might just vomit a little bit. If Cas doesn't know anything, then how could a 300 year old witch know anything. Yeah.. both she and Claire could go anytime and I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-20 05:15
Yeah, that's the thing. I really don't know what she's adding to the story other than making Crowley her own brand of wuss and being insufferably annoying. And that front she puts up is so unbelievably unbelievable, I find it hard to believe Crowley hasn't already ganked her, and it doesn't even seem at all like he's keeping her around just to use her because he...isn't? Or at least he doesn't seem to be to me. So yeah, I have to hope she doesn't become the solution to the Mark, either. I'll join you in your vomiting if that's the case. :P
# cheryl42 2015-02-20 05:50
I thought witches were supposed to play a huge part in the remaining episodes. Not sure why Show thought anyone would want to see witches as a foe. But I think that is Rowena's big part to play. What the witches will have to contribute to the brothers story remains to be seen. For better or worse I suppose. So far not really feeling it. Although I did like Rowena better in this episode.
# PaintedWolf 2015-02-20 08:26
Really? I hadn't heard that. I kinda hope that's not really true. I don't know what it is about Rowena. Just rubs me the wrong way, I guess, so I really don't want to see her be the solution, because that'll most likely mean they'll have to make some kind of deal with her and :D
# cheryl42 2015-02-20 10:22
I can't see her being the solution to Dean's problem. But I can see Crowley and the witches gumming up the works as far as the Winchesters go.
# Prix68 2015-02-20 11:51
I agree Cheryl. I think Crowley has finally realized that Dean wasn't and never will be his BFF. Hell hath no fury like the king of hell scorned and Mom could be very helpful to Crowley here.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 13:38
I thought it really interesting when Cain said first Dean would kill Crowley and that even though he'd do it without remorse that he would have mixed feelings about it. So there is something there in that weird, twisted relationship. Question is, is Dean pushing Crowley away to keep from having to kill him and prevent the start dominos from falling or is it a bit of our Not So Dean/Dean leaking through? If, as Cas said Dean was losing the fight against the MOCs influence before then he's got to be on the fast track now since he just offed The Father of Murder. Deans going to start spiraling because he knows what lies ahead but will still fight it with all he has because of it. I loved the look Dean had on his face after patting Cas on the back. Jensen is so good at making you question weather or not you really saw what you think you did and what it all means. I read somewhere that a later episode (18?) is titled Book of the Damned. Anyone know if that is correct? Does that mean Charlie will be back? (Please no, just no).

As far as Rowena goes, she is starting to grow on me. It seems like we are now seeing the true evil coming out and as it does she drops the cartoonish persona. I believe the OTT was intentional and not the over acting that so many fans has slammed the actress for. I think Rowenas about to get very interesting. I loved how she suggested the minion be split in two. How very Biblical of her!!! I find it curious Crowley is remaining in this Earth branch of Hell. Is this because of the partial humanity still kicking around inside of him? Could it be because he wants to stay close to Dean?

The promo for the hiatus return had several intriguing scenes. Crowley saying he has Sam and Dean just where he wants them... Someone hung upside down about to be bled? We haven't seen that since the demon blood drinking scene in Swan Song. (I hate that title - why not just call it Swan Dive that would've made more sense...) Did this clip cover 3 episodes? Dean appears to be okay, either he's handling it or he's hiding it really well. So what is the schedule for Show during the hiatus? Which episodes are the planning on running? There is nothing scheduled for this coming week.
# Prix68 2015-02-20 14:44
I actually thought Dean was going to kill Crowley for a second there, right before he gave Cas the blade. Now that would have been shocking! Probably didn't want to make Cain's prophesy come true. I don't think Cain knew what Dean is going to do in the future. I think he was just pushing Dean to kill him. Playing mind games. I think at this moment Dean is Dean but what Cain said will start to eat at him.

I have no idea where this will go but I think (from JC's comments) it will go until the end of this season and maybe into S11. In that promo Dean appears to be fine but Sam seems concerned and did appear to be after Metatron. Those promos can be so misleading though. It appears Sam and Dean are out working a job together.

Rowena didn't seem as irritating as usual in this episode. Not so over the top. Maybe I'm just getting used to her. Lol.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 15:46
I'm reading it less of Cain goading him to kill him and more of Cains "been there done that" so he knows how it will go down based on personal experience. I think it was purposely set up that way for the progression of the storyline. Whether or not it turns out to be a "Red Herring" or "Awesome Narwhal" (hee! - great commercial) remains to be seen. When Cain made sure Cas passed on the info to draw Dean into the fight it wasn't so that Dean would kill him, he simply wanted to get the FirstBlade back and he knew he could count on Dean doing just that. At the end maybe Deans hacking off his arm brought Cain momentarily back to his senses? I did like the touches in the scene of his bowing his head and what looked like him praying. I like to think he was remembering Collette in that final moment...
# LEAH 2015-02-20 12:34
Hi Painted Wolf! I might like her better if she would just drop the exaggerated fake chirpy sincere concern for Crowley and just be pure unadulterated evil. That could be fun. I hope it will be revealed that Crowley had been on to her this whole time and has a long con going to give dear old Mom some comeuppance and perhaps has something in store for the brothers.
# eilf 2015-02-20 19:37
I like Rowena :P I like her eyeliner. I like the fact that she is Lady Macbeth with a sense of humor. I really like that she is the first person we have ever seen really screw with Crowley.

I like the fact that she is a female character and still alive!
# leah 2015-02-20 19:59
I have moments when I enjoy her but it just seems a little too much. It just smacks of over acting to me. I thought Abbadon was OTT but she looks downright subtle now in retrospect. I have to say I didn't even consider her eyeliner eilf, maybe I need to reevaluate.:D
# eilf 2015-02-20 20:09
By the way did you see her standing beside Crowley? She is tiny!
# eilf 2015-02-20 20:09
She is rather more Doctor Who than Supernatural it's true, but you know she (the character) LOOKS like she is having fun, and the show sorely needs it :D
# E 2015-02-20 20:57
She looks more Jane Jetson than Dr. Who. She's a clown, I can't stand her.
# eilf 2015-02-20 21:17
Heh I meant her acting style would fit better into Dr Who, not the Doctor hims (or her) self. I entirely see where it was confusing though, my bad ...

I know the Jetsons cartoon (that's what you mean isn't it?) but not much else sorry :D
# E 2015-02-20 23:14
More Lois and Clark than Dr. Who or maybe Charmed (my favorite show to trash)..thats probably more accurate. Still Jane Jetson is otherworldly and a cartoon…. so… :P
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 13:58
I love, love, LOVED the way they shot the scene of Dean and Sam driving up to the prison!!! It was so intimate, secretly witnessing the brothers in their natural habitat... My daughter said it felt like it was going to be any second until Dean would turn around and growl "Who the Hell are you! What do you think you are you doing? This ain't no cab service! Get out!!!" So awesome. Thank you Phil. Such a fantastic director!
# E 2015-02-20 15:48
Now after all my glowing praise, I wouldn't be me if I didn't have something to bitch about so... here I go! :P I wish there were better paramiters for what Rowena is doing and what she wants. Usually when a character is keeping things hidden (Ruby) we have a better sense that there is somehting there, something to be concerned about. With Rowena, she's such a baffoon that I can't take her seriously, the sense of menace is simply not there for me. She doesn't seem smart enough to have alterior motives, so if we suddenly find that she does it won't ring that true. She was better in this ep, but mosly I just want to turn the sound down on her and wait for her to be gone.

My other gripe (although not with this epsidoe, which was great) is the lack of consistent paramaters for the MoC. So, does Dean need to kill like he did when he was a demon, or does he need to not kill (makes him sick) the way he did before he died the first time? Is he slowly being taken over? Is he gone? Is he soulless? Can he die? What? I dont' get it.

And I want better paramaters for why Crowley is still pining over Dean. Man, that just makes NO SENSE and its really bugging me. And now I guess Crowley will be like the woman scorned and turn on his once BFF? Ugh. Dean had zero reason to be influenced by or manipulated by Crowley. Yes, I know he was in a "dark place" and all that, but geez... he suddenly becomes a moron and forgets everything he's ever learned about hunting since day one? Come ON! He actually listens to the creature that's been making his life and his brothes life a living hell for five years? Why? to kill Abbadon? What happened to Dean's mission to kill Gadreel? And Crowley is interested in Dean why? It makes no sense at all. There is no connection at all other than it was convenient for the story for it to be so. Lame, unsupported, contrived. If Crowley had latched on to Sam or even Kevin I would have bought into it given Crowley had ingested their blood. But to suddenly latch onto Dean, and Dean letting it happen... it's weak.

And what about Crowley's blood addiction? Does he still have it? There's been no mention, the way there's been no mention about Sam's blood and it's being purified. One of the many seemingly important things that have been dropped. It's not really a plot thread, more like important details that need fleshing out with specifics. A quick mention would do it. Explain why Crowley is so fixated on Dean, why Dean listened to Crowley in the first place, if Crowley is still addicted, if Sam is still carrying either angel grace OR demon blood, if the gates to heaven are still closed, if Cas is still dying, if the souls are still stuck in the veil. Come on show, can you clean some of this up please?
# Prix68 2015-02-20 16:31
I'm with you E, I'd like some consistent rules (parameters) for the MOC. Last season, human Dean using the blade caused him to get sick. Then as a demon he needed to feed the blade, he needed to kill. Now, even after killing Cain he seems to still be in control. Is that because he is more self aware and that he is able to control it's hold over him. That Sam is right that it starts with how Dean reacts to things, how he feels about himself? Dean does seem to be more open, honest and forthcoming then he's been in a long time. Years. Telling Sam he was scared, not really wanting to kill Cain, not acting like everything was okay at the kitchen table. If he really isn't cured and is still a demon, he's a pretty nice one lately. Wouldn't Cain have recognized if he was still a demon or Crowley? IDK!

I don't think Dean was manipulated by Crowley. Dean used Crowley as a means to an end. Dean told Crowley as both human and demon that they weren't friends several times. What is bad is that both Sam and Dean have had numerous occasions when they could kill Crowley but never do. Guess they want the character to stay around for a while longer on the show but they really shouldn't put the boys in situations where killing him would be easy if that is the case.

Crowley being fixated on Dean is just creepy and I don't see any reason for it.
# cheryl42 2015-02-20 16:56
What caused Dean to get sick was not completing the kill. When he tried to kill Gadreel and didn't because Sam and Cas stopped him is when he started coughing up blood. As long as he kills his victim the Blade is satisfied. Dean's love for Charlie I think helped him overcome the affects of Mark and he didn't have the Blade when he tried to beat her to death. But in all other instances he was successful in his kills. So going forward will it be his love for Sam that stops him from fulfilling Cain's prophecy....
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 17:52
Plus the idea that Dean is probably some kind of human/demon hybrid. Dean was human Season 9, then after his human death became demonic and was cured. I still think the cure did not take 100% (based on some of Deans later expressions thanks to Jensens subtle clues) and ultimately that is going to be part of the twist by seasons end. Thinking about the Girls, Girls, Girls episode which referred to Rowenas "To Bind and Purge" spell... I have to wonder if she will try to use it on Dean but since there isn't a demon possessing him (which she might or might not know), it won't purge, only manage to bind Dean which she could then use to control off the rails Dean for her own purposes. I keep thinking back on when Magnus used his spell to control him. Such an interesting idea dropped - or maybe it was just a foreshadowing? It's so maddening! There are so many different directions Show can take the current storylines it's all but impossible to make a truly educated guess! Do I think they may go as far as having Dean kill Sam? Not sure. I could see Dean stabbing himself with the FirstBlade to keep from doing it knowing full well he would be condemning himself to becoming the next big bad demon. Would he be as bad as Cain then? Dunno. Cain did say Deans killing Sam was what would drive him mad so if he avoided that to save Sam, I'm thinking he wouldn't take Cains place, just become a KOH again. Maybe by sacrificing himself in that way it would break the curse? Maybe it would take Sam driving the FB in at the same time as Dean? Gah! How sad would that be for both of them!!!!! Just spit ballin here. Thoroughly depressing myself.. You know I'm not so sure I want to see Lucifer come back, I just can't see the current stable of writers doing that justice. Plus God forbid that we take the show darker and offend the little teenager viewers sensibilities.. . and I want Sam to have THE SAVE not just "he sacrifices and does dark deeds" the rest of the season in his effort to find the cure for the MOC. One thing I do want to see without fail is an out of control, balls to the wall, off the rails MOC/FB Dean by or before season finale. And I mean SEE - no out of scene he just took 5 scumbags out! We were so cheated with the 3 eps of DemonDean especially when he was finally coming into his own and we could see it with the beatdown of Cole. I still hold to "The Year of the Deanmon" being important. It makes so much more sense if he's still there without Dean being aware. Either that or TPTB just thought it was cooler sounding than "The Three Episodes of the Deanmon" that we really ended up with...;)
# cheryl42 2015-02-20 18:43
As the bearer of the Mark Dean is not all human and wasn't before he died. He is a Knight of Hell in waiting. All that needs to happen is for him to "scar his soul" so badly that he would never get redemption or "cured". I would assume that would mean killing Sam. I had forgotten about Magnus' spell. Maybe Rowena has a bigger part to play yet. But Metatron seems to have a cure as well. Unless Cain was needed for that particular cure....oops! You are right so many different ways to go and I'm sure they will go in the direction no one thought of. And we still have "the river shall end at the source".
# E 2015-02-20 20:49
A lady in waiting? Ah Dean, always a bridesmaid, never a bride! :D
# cheryl42 2015-02-20 22:12
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 22:14
Yup that's about how I read it too. Metatron I'm not sure of. How much of what he is revealing is the truth? Why are all these steps required to remove the MOC? Was the 1st step to find the FB with the 2nd step using it to kill Cain? Or they, like typical men, didn't bother to read the instructions, jumped ahead and killed Cain when as you said, he was needed for a particular step!?! What if they just needed a strand of those glorious locks and they burned his body? Ooops. Maybe the river ends at the source was the 1st step after getting the FB and that step was taking Cain out they did good and now it's on to the 3rd step. Why would they trust anything Metatron says from here on out? I think I remember reading somewhere of the existence of another tablet or two? Though unless they plan on resurrecting Kevin I don't see how they will be able to read it. Oh, but I forgot - I'm sure Charlie will be able to whip up a super special Word of God reading app...

So Dean believes he's doomed to what Cain revealed. The only thing he can do now is to make sure he doesn't kill Crowley... it will be interesting to see how far Crowley gets to push it and how confused Sam and Cas will be when Dean refuses to gank him. You know Dean isn't going to tell them what Cain said or he would've already. Which I normally would think is obviously a stupid plot driven move because as open as he's been with Sam lately I can't see him keeping such an important thing to himself but then again if you take into consideration the mind blowing reality of what he just went thru and what he now believes to be his fate, he's probably more than a bit shell shocked and needs time to wrap his head around it before deciding what his next move is. Clearly he's thinking about it as he made a point to give the FB to Cas as opposed to Crowley. My heart breaks for Sam too. I was thinking maybe he overheard the conversation but on rewatch I think he's just picking up on Dean. I can't wait to see strong, determined, take no prisoners Sam.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-20 22:15
Yup that's about how I read it too. Metatron I'm not sure of. How much of what he is revealing is the truth? Why are all these steps required to remove the MOC? Was the 1st step to find the FB with the 2nd step using it to kill Cain? Or they, like typical men, didn't bother to read the instructions, jumped ahead and killed Cain when as you said, he was needed for a particular step!?! What if they just needed a strand of those glorious locks and they burned his body? Ooops. Maybe the river ends at the source was the 1st step after getting the FB and that step was taking Cain out they did good and now it's on to the 3rd step. Why would they trust anything Metatron says from here on out? I think I remember reading somewhere of the existence of another tablet or two? Though unless they plan on resurrecting Kevin I don't see how they will be able to read it. Oh, but I forgot - I'm sure Charlie will be able to whip up a super special Word of God reading app...

So Dean believes he's doomed to what Cain revealed. The only thing he can do now is to make sure he doesn't kill Crowley... it will be interesting to see how far Crowley gets to push it and how confused Sam and Cas will be when Dean refuses to gank him. You know Dean isn't going to tell them what Cain said or he would've already. Which I normally would think is obviously a stupid plot driven move because as open as he's been with Sam lately I can't see him keeping such an important thing to himself but then again if you take into consideration the mind blowing reality of what he just went thru and what he now believes to be his fate, he's probably more than a bit shell shocked and needs time to wrap his head around it before deciding what his next move is. Clearly he's thinking about it as he made a point to give the FB to Cas as opposed to Crowley. My heart breaks for Sam too. I was thinking maybe he overheard the conversation but on rewatch I think he's just picking up on Dean. I can't wait to see strong, determined, take no prisoners Sam.
# E 2015-02-21 08:17
Witholding information is what got Kevin killed. I'd like to think that Dean is learning something!
# Prix68 2015-02-20 23:42
Well, Dean told Sam after he was pulled away from Metatron, when he was torturing him, that he would have killed Metatron had he not been stopped. So I guess as long as Dean isn't in contact directly with the blade when he tries to kill someone he won't get sick if he fails? I can't remember, did he try to kill Gadreel with the blade? I know he had it around.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-21 00:15
I dont think his getting sick is an issue anymore. They havent shown that to be a problem since he was demonized. Now with the "cure" I'm thinking he's more a demon/human hybrid. Yes, he did have the FB when he sliced Gadreel.
# cheryl42 2015-02-21 00:38
He hasn't gotten sick because every time he has tried to kill someone with the Blade he has been successful. The only time Dean didn't complete the kill was when he was beating Charlie to death. And he didn't have the Blade then. I think Crowley indicated that it was the Blade that needed to be fed when he sent him to kill Lester's wife.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-21 02:48
No its the MOC that has to be sated. In Season 9 Dean stopped short of killing Gadreel and he only had the angel blade then. If you recall he was looking pretty bad/weak when Sam found him but now with him nearly beating Charlie to death there was no physical reaction from stopping. I still see it as a Season 9 thing - Dean hasnt shown any of the same weaknesses since his death/demonic stint and cure. I still maintain its cause there's still some demon left in Dean even tho I don't think he's aware of it. Plus he hasnt touched the blade since he was demonic before the cure and Sam handing it over to Crowley.
# cheryl42 2015-02-21 06:12
That's true but he wasn't dying or coughing up blood. I think he was just spent from beating up an angel. And yes he has the MOC so he isn't entirely human and won't be like Sam was with Demon Blood until he is cured. Well he did kill Cain with the Blade.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-21 14:05
Wasn't coughing up blood that we saw. I read that scene differently though especially when Dean said he was going to kill him, that he WANTED to kill him but he held back because they needed him. He denied the MOC its due. I always thought something was probably edited from that scene where it might have made more sense, especially in light of the "throwing up blood when he doesn't kill" info that we found out later on during the Dean/Crowley convo...
# cheryl42 2015-02-21 06:16
Dean did kill Cain with the Blade. A thought just occurred to me I wonder what would have happened if they had tried the demon cure on Cain.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-21 14:08
Good luck getting close enough to him to try! He might have been trapped but he was still pretty powerful... If you meant after Dean cut his hand off? Well wouldn't the cuff just keep sliding off? Ha! Ewwwww...
# Prix68 2015-02-20 23:50
Well, Dean told Sam after he was pulled away from Metatron, when he was torturing him, that he would have killed Metatron had he not been stopped. So I guess as long as Dean isn't in contact directly with the blade when he tries to kill someone he won't get sick if he fails? I can't remember, did he try to kill Gadreel with the blade? I know he had it around.
# Prix68 2015-02-20 23:51
Well, Dean told Sam after he was pulled away from Metatron, when he was torturing him, that he would have killed Metatron had he not been stopped. So I guess as long as Dean isn't in contact directly with the blade when he tries to kill someone he won't get sick if he fails? I can't remember, did he try to kill Gadreel with the blade? I know he had it around.
# cheryl42 2015-02-21 00:00
That was my take that it was the Blade that needed to be satisfied. Dean did try to kill Gadreel with the Blade and then was thrown into the dungeon. Crowley told Dean then that he needed to kill in order to stay alive. It's kind of murky. Maybe somewhere in the not too distant future it will be fully explained.
# eilf 2015-02-20 20:03
Crowley did try to attach himself to Sam. Which, as you say, makes complete sense due to the blood thing. And the show just had it that Sam wasn't falling for it. There is actually a perfectly good reason for Sam to not want to be latched on to by Crowley - Sara - but they can't bring it up because then it really should be equally impossible for the same reason for Dean to come round to Crowley's charms (except when he was a demon), but since Dean came back from being a demon they treat Crowley like he's New-Meg (a buddy you can't trust all that far), it REALLY doesn't make sense.

I agree about the rules for the MOC. (I have a terrible urge to make Pokemon jokes here) I think Dean is now a supernatural creature who is stronger than normal just with the mark. He can either kill things in which case he gets closer to evolving into Raichu, *ahem* I mean a demon, or not and stay sober. The more of a bender he goes on at any time the harder the reaction will be when he decides not to - like the throwing up blood that was mentioned. In the same way that an alcoholic recovers from being on a bender.

Eventually he will get killed again and will turn into a demon again, and apparently he can't be killed (which if that IS the case then being thrown into the sun by Cas might turn out to be an uncomfortable experience) .

It really does look like Lucifer is required to solve this?
# E 2015-02-20 20:53
It just drives me batshit crazy... wasn't Dean the one who lambasted Sam for working with a demon? What happened to "we don't work with demons ever, Sammy!" Hmmmm.... Take a page from your own book Dean. The boys have zero reason to trust Crowley. He was going to keep Bobby's soul on a technicality, he killed Sara, he sent hell hounds after them.... Dean's default should have been to tell Crowley to take a hike. But TPTB needed Dean to be stupid in that moment, so he was stupid. They (meaning the writers) need a better way to get done what they need to get done then to make their main characters look like fools. Headless Abbadon left all alone in a warehouse anyone? Sheesh.
# eilf 2015-02-20 21:21
Do NOT get me started on the stuff that is ok for Dean and not for Sam. :P The lack of story logic and injustice of it drives me completely crazy and flames come out my ears, which is bad for my hair so I am trying to do it less
# cheryl42 2015-02-21 00:02
# leah 2015-02-21 00:25
:D Singed hair is so unattractive plus it smells!
# eilf 2015-02-21 06:57
It does! And it goes all crinkly and takes ages to grow back. The writers should really be paying more attention to the damage they are doing to my hair! (Some attention, any attention)
Especially as it is growing out quite nicely at the moment...
# LEAH 2015-02-21 02:23
On the subject of Sam being interested in serial killers I remember how knowledgeable Sam was about America's first serial killer H.H. Holmes in No Exit. He knew a lot about him. He saw his name Herman Webster Mudgett (or something like that) and knew immediately it was H.H. Holmes. So the idea he studies up on serial killers as a hobby didn't seem so far fetched to me.
# Prix68 2015-02-21 06:04
Good catch Leah. I wonder if Berens knew that!
# eilf 2015-02-21 07:01
Well ok, nice catch I had forgotten that ;) but there is a difference between being a 'walking encyclopedia of weird' and considering collecting serial killer stats to be a hobby ...
I am entirely on Dean's side on this.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-21 14:11
I agree Leah! Good catch on that one. Could Berens be following Show canon? Yaaaaasssssss!
# LEAH 2015-02-22 14:39
I don't think "everybody" thinks that eilf. And since DemonDean wasn't very evil, except in the bunker scenes, those words were to demonstrate how far gone Dean was. It wasn't an indictment of Sam. Those are the words that will hurt Sam the most, he knew that, most fans knew that. Maybe there are fans who find that, and what Dean did last year, and everything Dan has ever done as heroic but I have never gotten the impression from day one that he is supposed to be the the perfect hero or brother. I have never read it that way or think the show tries to show him that way. I know I try and empathize and see the reason behind every questionable action that Sam and Dean have ever taken but that doesn't mean I have condoned them all.

You are really going to have to carry around one of those mini fire extinguishers.
# eilf 2015-02-22 15:16
I shall get a flame retardant wig. ;) It's easier. I will charge it to Jeremy Carver's account since he clearly has no feeling for the suffering and hardship he is putting me through.
# eilf 2015-02-22 18:33
The Lucifer theory is being discussed on stage at Phxcon !

Depending on how it got started that means that it definitely won't happen or possibly it might ....

Jensen: "what if Lucifer came back in Sam, and he and demon!dean warred Cas & Metatron? This is why i don't write." #phxcon

That definitely would mean 'no' except ...

Need to see how this played out :D
# AlyCat22 2015-02-23 15:11
I'd like to 2nd this Leah.