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Summary:  This episode was written by Adam Glass and is a Monster of the Week focused on what happens when the fountain of youth, kind of, finds the boys.

The episode begins with a guy named JP who is drunk and stumbles out of a bar to meet with his untimely disappearance.

We find the boys back at the bunker, with a pretty rocking CLASSIC ROCK song playing, as Dean pours over the books again, looking for clues to curing his mark. Sam comes in and shares a case he found. At first Dean is hesitant and says he’ll stay at the bunker but Sam pushes him, convincing him to leave the bunker (which he hasn’t left in a week).

The boys go to the town and find an itinerant man who says he saw it. Of course he thinks it’s aliens, which amuse or perhaps bemuse Sam and Dean. They split up to investigate and Dean goes to the local bar to find information while Sam goes to JP’s place. Dean meets a girl and after some flirting she leaves but he notices a very aged Old Spice guy following her. He tracks them down and sees she, like JP, has disappeared except for her clothes. He turns and the Old Spice guy reaches out and boom, flash.

Next thing we see is a YOUNG DEAN in a cell. The girl, Tina, is next door and they are all children. The Old Spice guy shows up and takes JP, who is heard screaming off screen. YOUNG DEAN (who is played so excellently  by Dylan Everett) figures a way out but before he can get Tina out, Old Spice (OS) guy returns. She tells Dean to get out while she distracts OS.

Meanwhile Sam is trying to find Dean and gets all protective Sam as he threatens the guy at the bar for information. The next thing we see is that Dean shows up at their motel room and Sam (kudos to Jared Padalecki here) encounters the YOUNG DEAN and has the most hysterical look of confusion ever. Sam and Dean have some great banter and Dean ponders that this young body may be the cure to the mark since it was no longer on him – his body had been reset sort of. Glass does well with the brother dialogue in these scenes, in my opinion, so congrats to him.

Sam and Dean track down the place where the children are being held (by tracking the flowery flower smell), and they encounter Old Spice guy, who turns out to be HANSEL. Yes, Hansel from the Hansel and Gretel fame. He tells a sad tale of woe of how the witch made him eat his sister and I have to admit I was having Levichester feelings…remember when Levichester Sam admitted to eating his brother? Good times.

Anyway, Hansel Old Spice says he wants to help kill the witch and the three of them go to save Tina from the big brewing pot of children’s nightmares. Of course, Hansel is like totally not gonna kill his momma figure. The witch blathers on but reveals that she came to America to find a rogue witch. They put two and two together and realize it’s Rowena. Just as that revelation settles, a fight ensues and Dean has to make a choice when he sees the witch go after the injured Sam. He clutches the hex bag that Hansel Old Spice used to turn the adults to children, which reversed Dean back to OLD DEAN. Dean gets up and saves the day by killing Hansel and throwing the witch into the fire.

The episode ends with Tina deciding she didn’t want to turn back to an adult – three exes and 50 grand in debt makes her want this new life. The boys take her to the bus station – as they do so many girls – and afterward talk about Dean saving Sam, the revelation about Rowena, and then Dean gets into the car and Taylor Swift blares as they pull out onto the street.


What do you think Rowena’s end game is and why are so many people after her?

Do you think Dean is back to his old self? Or is this a respite?

So how many more concussions can Sam Winchester suffer before we try to get NFL doctors to take a look at him?

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here!


# percysowner 2015-02-03 23:17
What do you think Rowena’s end game is and why are so many people after her? No Idea and I wish I cared more. It looks like she is going to be a big player in the second half of the season. Of course, last year I though the same thing about Abaddon and NOPE.

Do you think Dean is back to his old self? Or is this a respite? It would be pretty boring if it weren't just a respite, so I'm guessing he's not back to his old self.

So how many more concussions can Sam Winchester suffer before we try to get NFL doctors to take a look at him? Honestly I have no idea why the heck Dean wants Sam to stay in hunting. Sam is portrayed as a total incompetent. Dean as a 14 year old is more competent than Sam. My only guess is Dean is trying to get Sam killed because Sam can't go 2 feet without being knocked out and Dean having to ride to the rescue.

So what are your thoughts, reactions, feelings? Leave them here! Dean the perfect rides again! There were rumors that this episode would be Sam centric. Thankfully I remembered that Adam Glass, just like Charlie is a self insert for Robbie, AG flat out said in Bad Boys that Dean is just like him when he was a kid, so I really didn't expect much Sam POV. Boy was I right. We were reminded that Dean was the BEST BROTHER EVER, who sacrificed to KEEP SAMMY FED and is SO STRONG AND WONDERFUL that even as a child, and without the MOC, he is a better fighter and hunter than Sam can ever hope to be. Oh well, last week we got RT as a hunter this week we got AG to join the fun. Maybe Eugenie Ross- Lemming and Brad Buckner can invent two OCs who are just like them and then we can have ALL the writers take part in the hunting fun. They'd have to cut Sam's dialog down to 2 lines, but it's not that much less than he's already getting anyway. Basically, I had lots of issues with the episode.
# BookLady 2015-02-03 23:42
It's interesting to me that the show writers are inserting themselves into the show in a way that lots of fan fiction writers don't. And, some fan fiction writers are much more careful about balanced characterizatio ns and staying true to canon than these writers are. Just an observation...
# lala2 2015-02-04 00:49
Oh, Percy, I couldn't agree more w/you. I was just ranting about Sam over on and . I know I shouldn't expect better, but Sam has been rendered so utterly useless and incompetent this season that it is really ridiculous.
# Sharon 2015-02-04 01:34
This show is just bad and the fact there is no Sam writers in that writers room is so utterly self evident. And someone buy Sam a big strong helmet before his brain turns to mush.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 01:44
I do not know.Maybe I will not watch this episode maybe I will.lala2 in spoiler Tv there was one comment by TAG221 which has made me decide to not watch so let mesee maybe this the end of my relationship with supernatural.Sa d thing is I think it is not going to be like removing the bandage at once I think it is going to be messy
# lala2 2015-02-04 07:23
I did think think most of this episode was okay, but TAG's comment was spot on. It really was wash, rinse, repeat. I definitely think you should watch it b/c I like reading y'all's opinions!
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 02:31
percysowner I read the interview given about the dramatic twist for Dean..well i guess Sam as a character has ceased to exist.
# cheryl42 2015-02-04 07:14
I really liked this episode. Jared was great and played off Dylan wonderfully. The witch was suitably creepy and Tina was a perfect damsel in distress. It was a cute fun episode. And hey Sam may have been knocked down but he wasn't completely knocked out, so there's that. Maybe Rowena will have some part in removing the MOC. Although I thought that Magnus/Cuthbert seemed to know a lot about the blade and the Mark too. This episode didn't advance the season plot but it at least the Mark wasn't forgotten.
# lala2 2015-02-04 07:29
He may as well have been though - completely knocked out I mean! I would have liked to see him handle one of the villains (Hansel) since there were two but he handled none. It was sad and pretty much makes Sam a liability rather than an asset to the team. As Percy said, why bring him around if he is constantly going to be knocked out and in need of being saved. It's a joke at this point.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-02-04 11:31
I liked the episode from start to finish. I don't know what else I can say about it. The beginning and the light flash. Were we dealing with an angel again? Dean making his room a personal bunker and studying and trying to find and repeat the search for the mark. I love to see the bunker and the song and short images really pulled me in. From the start to finish I liked the brothers and how they talked even Young!Dean.

The MoC was present and also we got new small info about the witch covenant while delivering us MotW. If Rowena is no good even in witch standards and she is hunted. The boys might get trapped in the middle of the whole thing. Something is coming for sure. Also the scene about the aliens made me smile because it reminded me about fight the fairies and Trickster. No wonder the brothers split the scene. I liked that Hansel and the with were grim like the real old stories. Both were creepy and they reminded me about Benders. And I think this has been scariest episode a while with the lighting and the directing. People locked in a creepy house with psychopaths. All the quest actors did good work. Specially Dylan with Teen!Dean and his hormones. That is why I forgive the horrid song in the end. I guess Teen!Dean got the hots for her.

I am glad that Tina got a proper send off from the boys. The adult and teen one were both good performances. Jared and Dylan were great together.

Some extra trivia. In SF Con Jensen was wearing the same plaid shirt as in this episode!

- Lilah
# E 2015-02-04 07:16
I thought the episode was boring and essentially slow moving. It wasn't terrible.. it seemed to follow the current writing "formula" that Supernatural has been following for a while now reasonably well, it was just moving at a snails pace. Hansel was downright weird and creepy; why was he a giant, scarred adult again? Why was he all grown up? Why did he eat his sister? Why was the witch there? Just to find Rowena and then tell the boys that? Seems like pretty thin plotting. There wasn't really much reason for this episode to happen other than to give Jensen some probably much needed time off. There was no movement on the MoC, there was no real connection to Crowley and Rowena other than that one comment about the fact that evil witch lady was looking for her, nothing in Cas and nothing on Sam and his supposed "journey" that we keep hearing about in interviews and never seeing on screen. So, why was this episode even written? Other than a few good brother scenes where Sam is supportive (yawn…) Dean is stubborn (surprise) absolutely nothing happened.

How convenient for the brother's that Tina was so totally, completely, unrealistically understanding and in need of a do-over to the point that she was completely willing to just give up her current life and start over. I guess she has absolutely no family whatsoever. Talk about taking no risks with your story…. it was all very bland and blah.

Pretty much every prediction I had about this episode came true. Sam once again was excused from the scene so that the story could follow Dean and we could watch him connect with Tina, the guest star of the week. Was there a corresponding scene with Sam.. no, there wasn't. Teen Dean was annoying snarky, just like I though he'd be, but Dylan Everret had Jensen's mannerisms down pretty well, so that part ended up not annoying me too much. Sam was completely ineffectual and both Teen Dean and Adult Dean saved the day. Granted Saw wasn't totally unconscious but pretty nearly so and basically incapacitated. And bestest of all! Sam THANKED Dean for being so totally awesome and saving his incompetent ass. Oh joy. And another thing that bugged me: I see that Dean gets a research montage. How nice for him… it was very informative, really indicating his frame of mind and mental state, his frustration and fear...… I wish Sam had gotten one, but who cares about Sam doing research, about Sam's frustration and his fear? Not the writers apparently. Their double standard is showing. I noticed that Dean gets his hallucinations and his nightmares shown as well … but does Sam? Nope not on your nelly. This show is as one sided as it gets. I am surprised that Jared's name is even in the opening credits any more his character has been so reduced. The homeless alien guy had more lines in his one scene, and Tina had more character development.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 08:21
E, Now for the short term silver lining..Jared supposedly gets the same salary as jensen for uttering two sentences.How this will effect his future career prsopects ...well that is why I said short term silver lining.
# ParadiseHeat 2015-02-04 13:30
Not sure but Jared has got to be one of the highest paid actors on US TV when you calculate how much he makes per line an episode, surely?
# njspnfan 2015-02-04 08:10
Didn't care for this one; a boring and predictable episode. Will try to rewatch to see if my opinion changes.

On the upside, Dylan Everett did an outstanding job playing a young Dean; he clearly did his homework and got Dean's mannerisms down. Sam's reaction to teen Dean showing up was funny. And I'll give them credit for trying to tie this witch's appearance to the grand coven looking for Rowena; at least they haven't completely fogotten about that. Unlike all the souls stuck in the veil which seem to have been completely forgotten about.

On the downside, a lot of the dialog between Sam and Dean at the start of the episode, and then Sam and young Dean, was clunky - not very well written. And, now that Dean is handling hunting AND research duties, that frees Sam up to make him grilled cheese sandwiches. And, really, Sam believed in the Easter bunny till he was 11-12 years old? Even after finding out about monsters by reading his father's journal when he was 8 ? (A Very Supernatural Christmas). Kudos for trying for the brotherly teasing/banter, but do they need to portray one of the brothers as an idiot or buffoon in doing so? It's this lack of attention to getting these small details right that is so sorely lacking the past couple of seasons. And a raise of hands for those that didn't think Hansel was just pretending he'd help the brothers?

Saving the best for last - Sam once again playing the damsel in distress, having to be saved by his 14 year old brother. And not only that, Dean having to take on the MoC again because he had to save Sam yet AGAIN. There was an interesting discussion in another recent article on this site where one of the posters raised some excellent insights in to why Dean took on the MoC. Some responses took this as blaming Sam, which I didn't. However, this episode does firmly establish as canon that it is Sam's fault that Dean had to take on the MoC again, and reenforces evil-Charlie's proclamation that Sam is an albatross around Dean's neck.

The show runners spoke that part of this season was about Dean having to rediscover what it was like to be a hero; it's just a shame that journey has to be to the detriment of Sam, with Sam being portrayed as incompetent.

What do you think Rowena’s end game is and why are so many people after her?

Not sure - maybe she's trying to resurrect her fellow villains The Joker and The Riddler from the old Batman TV series.

Do you think Dean is back to his old self? Or is this a respite?

Not to his old self, but on the way.

So how many more concussions can Sam Winchester suffer before we try to get NFL doctors to take a look at him?
It's pathetic - Sam should just wear a protective helmet and drool bucket for the rest of the season.
# E 2015-02-04 09:01
Nice post njspnfan… a few thing you said really rang true with me...
And I'll give them credit for trying to tie this witch's appearance to the grand coven looking for Rowena;
This was a nice tie in, I just wish that there had been more information given; it seems pretty thin plot wise. That's all we get? No little tidbits about why other witches are so keen to get her, no alluding to her powers or what she wants? This show is pretty good at over sharing when it's not necessary and under sharing when a bit more plot tidbits would be a good idea. It's not enough to spark concern in either the boys or in me. So, other witches are looking for Rowena? Big deal…. why should I worry? Why should Sam and Dean worry?

at least they haven't completely fogotten about that. Unlike all the souls stuck in the veil which seem to have been completely forgotten about
Like they've completely forgotten about Cas's waining grace? Adina's grace must have been much better than Theo's, Cas seems to be a fully functioning and doesn't seem to have nearly as many side effects this time around. It's like he's forgotten all about the fact that the grace inside him isn't his… and so have the writers. Still think the best solution to Cas, the souls, heaven and the lack of intensity for the MoC would be for Dean to kill Claire, that would ratchet up the tension on the MOC story by 1000%, allow Cas to get his own grace back, open the gates of heaven once and for all and release all the souls in the veil….and get rid of the awful, wretched Claire….Bonus!

And a raise of hands for those that didn't think Hansel was just pretending he'd help the brothers?
Yeah… could see THAT coming from a mile off. Stupid brothers ahead! And also wasn't it totally convenient for Hansel to just offer up the information to the brothers about how to reverse the spell so easily? Hansel lied about being in cahoots with the witch, why wouldn't he lie about how to reverse the spell? I guess because they asked so nice and all…..this plot point was about as lame as Tina being GRATEFUL that she got a second chance in life. How totally convenient it all was. Sam and Dean had to hardly break a sweat, and even Dean couldn't manage to feel guilty over Tina's situation, it all worked out SOOO perfectly!!.

However, this episode does firmly establish as canon that it is Sam's fault that Dean had to take on the MoC again, and reenforces evil-Charlie's proclamation that Sam is an albatross around Dean's neck.
Yeah… I guess if any of the fans were arguing against Dean taking on the MoC as being Sam's fault, well this just seals the deal. It's almost like they wanted to be SURE that we all knew it was Sam's fault, and if we didn't get it last time, well it's pretty incontrovertibl e now. The MoC is clearly Sam's fault; he forced Dean into not once, but twice! Bleh.
# Jo1027 2015-02-04 08:31
This episode was totally boring.
# sylvia37 2015-02-04 09:22
Before I comment, I need to mention that my husband called the Hansel and Gretel thing in the first ten minutes of the episode. He was like, "tell all your buddies" so this is me telling you, lol.

I have mixed feelings about the episode. I thought Dylan did a great job being Dean and he and Jared were very natural together. I thought the dilemma about whether to stay a teenager without the MOC was an interesting one and it would have been nice to hear another discussion about what would happen if they chose to leave Dean the way he was. I loved, for just a moment, that Sam was BadAss Sam with the bartender. I knew the minute he mouthed off that he was about to be very sorry, and I wasn't disappointed. Sigh....sometim es I REALLY MISS Soulless Sam. I thought some of the dialogue was funny, and I thought the end was cute with the Taylor Swift song.

I didn't need another research montage, although it would have been a nice change up to see Sam pouring over things and maybe making calls instead of Dean angsting. It's like they can't start an episode without this anymore. I was very glad that Crowley and Rowena were NOT in the episode because it was enough that we barely got one of the ACTUAL stars of the show in the episode without adding that into the mix. As for what Rowena is up to, no clue, but I did think that the witch mentioning why they showed up all of the sudden was interesting. I hope they don't drop it now that they've brought it up.

I actually liked the guest actors, so that was a plus, and color me stupid for actually almost believing Hansel wanted to help them. How much better would it have been if Sam was the one who managed to get the hex bag and he and Dean had a silent conversation across the room about him changing back before tossing it to him or something to that effect. Then we wouldn't have had Sam needing to be saved and then we could have skipped that "you pulled a Dean Winchester" comment. I mean, I get it, Sam is being SUPER supportive right now, and that's all great, but it's getting a little heavy handed. And, God forbid, Sam gets to save the day. Then maybe we'd hear Dean call it "pulling a Sam Winchester". I know I'm delusional, but it's early and I took a Benadryl last night so I'm groggy this morning.

So, all in all, I wasn't bored and I didn't cringe at the performances and although it didn't really live up to it's potential, at least it wasn't another life lesson for Sam about how great a big brother Dean was while they were growing up and how grateful Sam should be. Of course, having his fourteen year old brother save them both from the bad guys was pretty close.....Le sigh....
# MindiWynne 2015-02-04 10:46
Maybe I'm reading the comments too early, because I usually see my thoughts plastered up by someone else with lots of references to other episodes and meaningful things. I'm kinda still a rookie with all the intricate details and insights into the show, but did everyone miss the part that Dean wasn't sure he wanted to become an adult again? The mark was gone, and that whole scene pretty much summed up that Dean would rather give up his life as he knew it than be stuck with the mark. I actually felt really sad for him. Dean hates his life and hates that mark even more. He seemed really gung-ho about the thought of a "Do-over". And when Tina mentioned getting a second chance: Quick camera shot to Dean, look of sadness on his face.
But I also can't help but wonder if this foreshadows an opportunity for the boys. Can Rowena or someone take them back in time (feel free to quote the episodes for me, I just know it has been done before) to before Dean got the mark? Or would that bring Abbadon back...
I didn't think this was one of the bestest episodes, but I don't think there has been one since Mystery Spot that I have wanted to watch more than once and none of them have every had me thinking about them through the night. So either I am finally past the point of no return, or it was indeed a good show. ;)
# ParadiseHeat 2015-02-04 13:50
I read it as Dean giving up, he knows deep down he isnt strong enough to control the MOC so he decides that staying a kid without the MOC was a good solution. Yes Dean life's sucks but Sam does too and he hasnt been allowed to just give up (Dean has seen to that), Dean isnt anymore deserving of a do-over at life than Sam is. I would have preferred Dean to have acknowledged that he got himself in to the MOC mess so he should man up and get himself out instead of the writers absolving Dean of all personal responsibility for his decisions that lead him to where he is now.

Well if Rowena can just take them back to before the MOC that would make life a lot easier, maybe they could have them go back to the end of season 7 and erase all Carver's character assassination's of Sam?
# E 2015-02-04 23:30
Hi MindiWynne, I did notice that Dean was contemplating staying a kid to be rid of the MoC. The problem for me is that they way the episode was written I knew he was never going to be given that choice that he would be back to regular Dean by the end of the episode so his contemplating staying a teen lacked any drama whatsoever. As a mater of fact it would have been nice if Dean had had to actually confront making the decision on his own… and not to "save dumb ass Sam" who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag and needed big brother to save him AGAIN. Dean being a teen without the mark didn't even register with me as a respite because Dean didn't comment on feeling any different or show relief that he wasn't' being plagued by it's affects or anything like that… it was barely a blip on the radar.
# paintgirl770 2015-02-04 11:31
I seem to be in the minority, but I really enjoyed this episode. Dylan Everett does a great job portraying young Dean. I thought he absolutely nailed the character. Sure, it was a Monster of the Week outing but for me it touched all the bases - the MOC, Rowena and the coven, brotherly dynamic - and it focused on "the boys, and thank God, no angels. The dialog was good throughout, with wisecracking dean, hysterical Sam reactions and funny comments.
I don't buy in to all the "Dean vs. Sam" stuff. I've never understood it. Both actors are wonderful. To me, the show revolves around them both. just in different ways, you can't imagine it without ether one of them.
# njspnfan 2015-02-04 11:45
paintgirl770 - I really don't think this boils down to a Sam vs Dean thing, I actually enjoyed about 2/3 of the episode, it was the other 1/3 of the episode that was just awful and spoiled it for me. I don't like it when the writers do a disservice to the characterizatio n of either of the brothers, Sam OR Dean, and this episode did not portray Sam favorably. I would have had the same complaints (and have in the past) when they do a disservice to Dean's character.
# ParadiseHeat 2015-02-04 13:55
Problem isnt about Dean V. Sam its about the fact that this show used to be Dean and Sam now its just Dean and a side of guest star. You can have all the nice brother stuff you want but at the end of the day it rings hollow. I get that Dean fans are happy because its all about Dean and Sam is being the passive, puppy standing in the back ground but believ it or not some Sam fans want Sam to be more than just Dean's scape goat.
# Prix68 2015-02-04 11:34
I really enjoyed this episode. Dean staying at the bunker because he didn't trust himself and hesitating to search on his own during the case made sense. Being willing to stay in the teen body to get rid of the mark. Sam disagreeing with both and Dean allowing Sam's belief in him to keep him going. I enjoyed the brother banter. I liked the tie in to Rowena by the witch. Sam did tell Tina that they could find a spell to reverse things but she chose the do over. So, I was good with that. It wasn't anvil heavy like last week and Hansel was no more unbelievable then all the Wizard of Oz nonsense we've had in two "Charlie" episodes. Dylan Everett knocked it out of the park and the young girl who played Tina was good as well. Sam was actually more involved then he has been lately and I enjoyed him with Dylan a lot more then with good Charlie and was kind of surprised he preferred to have regular Dean back with the MOC then teen Dean. Sam was badass with the bartender and figured out the witch angle. Saved Dean in the basement from Hansel.
Anyway, first episode in a while that I actually enjoyed.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-04 13:19
Prix68 - right there with you! I enjoyed it first watch. Quick pace, kept on target, solid acting from all (kudos to young Dylan). Loved Sam/Jared in the bar scene... I think that is just a glimpse of whats to come! Strong, determined Sam and pissed off, MOC Dean for the win!!!!! Really enjoying Jareds Sam this year but do want to see more Action!Sammy, and this coming from a Dean girl! I also wish that they would come up with more interesting ways that end up with either Sam or Dean unconcious. I do like that Dean considered staying young to escape the MOC but in the end did what he had to do to help Sam. I doubt that he would have chosen to stay deaged regardless. Nor we he ever consider it a sacrifice. Far as the guest stars go, I actually thought they did a good job with the Witch and Hansel - dark not cartooney or OTT. Looking forward to a rewatch.

I keep reading people saying that they think DemonDean is either pulling a con or iwas just never fully cured. I'm leaning toward the latter. What I'm wondering, is either being the case, if and how Cain will call him out on it . Cain episode is supposed to be pretty emotional for Dean - will he find out MOC permanent? If Dean kills Cain as he wishes then who will be left to take out Dean unless he transfers the mark to someone else. Are the witches going to end up being the Big Bad or is MOC/Dean? Curious to see how next weeks episode drives the story into the Cain ep.

To be fair, I liked last weeks episode better on rewatch. OT - I just sat thru Bloodlines. I feel in need of some salt and Holy water for purification. Thank Chuck it never got picked up! Hell House up next to make up for it!!!!! I miss Deans leather jacket and Sams bangs!!!!!
# cheryl42 2015-02-04 13:26
There is an interview on BuzzFeed with Dylan where he really credits Jared for helping him channel Dean. It is a fun interview with the usual Hearts in Eyes uberfans of the show. I do love their reviews.
# LEAH 2015-02-04 16:13
It is a fun interview and they also talk to the young actress Madeline about playing Tina. It is on AfterBuzz tv
# Ginger 2015-02-04 13:51
Best episode of the season so far, and I never would have thought I would say that about an Adam Glass episode. Fun, fast paced, nice tie-in to the MoC, good directing, NO CHARLIE, and no TV trope teenagers. All around great acting, and the story wasn't a goofy comedy like I expected. I usually absolutely loathe teenagers in my shows, but I liked both Teen Tina and Teen Dean, and both could actually act.

What do you think Rowena’s end game is and why are so many people after her?

Looks like the brothers are going to team up with Rowena to take on the coven. I guess she wants to stay alive and needs help doing so, but I hope her role is limited, based on the last time she was on-screen.

Do you think Dean is back to his old self? Or is this a respite?
No, that story is a long way from being finished.

So how many more concussions can Sam Winchester suffer before we try to get NFL doctors to take a look at him?

I didn't think there was anything these writers could do to make me like Sam again after that Purge speech, but they have managed. Sam's non-Purge line about Dean pulling a "Dean Winchester" was perfect and I am satisfied with it. I don't know how Sam got to where he is this season, but I hope this Sam stays around for a very long time.

In this episode, I think it was important that Dean saved both Tina and Sam from the witch, because Sam's words about having faith in Dean needs to be backed up with examples and good reasons. The fact that Sam verbally acknowledged that he wanted adult Dean back with him, that he interrupted Dean's apology and affirmed that Dean once again chose others over himself, is the perfect way to lead Dean into finding the self-acceptance that he desperately needs. Sam is the only one that can do that, because Sam is the only person Dean listens to and is the most important thing in Dean's life. That theme running through this episode was why I liked it so much.
# Bevie 2015-02-04 14:45
I loved this episode. I enjoyed it from the beginning to the end. Then I come here and read endless posts of griping and moaning and complaining about stuff I don't ever see. There are a minority of exceptions to this, and I am grateful to the ones who don't buy into this "Dean vs. Sam" BS and still get enjoyment from our little show that could and did. I've got enough misery in my real life to not need to increase it with this.

If the "for" and "against" posts are not divided again, as they once were, then my reading them and posting will be no more. I'll stay away from the comments entirely. That way
I can continue to enjoy without having to come down the very next day.

Feel free to delete me Alice. I just won't see it if you do. LOL;)
# JuliaG 2015-02-04 16:41
Please Bevie, don't berate other posters for their opinions.

It's funny, most Dean girls really enjoy Sam this year, a completely supportive, mostly silent Sam. So of course you may not understand the utter frustration of having to witness a once great character who has been hollowed out, just a shell of who he was during the first 4 seasons. And I guess I'm also bitter about Sam being so darn supportive now when Dean was so judgemental during season 5 and withheld his trust altogether. What I wouldn't have given for Dean to have the same faith that Sam could beat the demon blood and withstand Lucifer that Sam has now about the MOC. In a nutshell, I'M FRUSTRATED! Where's Stanford Sam? Where's badass Sam? Remember when he saved Dean almost as often as Dean saved him? Remember when Sam and Dean made such a great team because Sam was great at research and Dean moreso during the hunt itself? There's no balance in the relationship now and the show suffers because of it.
# LEAH 2015-02-04 16:57
The implication that Dean fans are blind to Sam's characterizatio n and only see Sam in a positive light when he is supporting Dean is frustrating. I happen to know of a few Sam fans right here on this site who view the show and Sam the exact same way many of the Dean leaning fans do. I have always loved Sam as a character and it hasn't change one iota since day 1. I guess one has to be "bitter" to really understand Sam. Could he be written better sometimes? Absolutely. So could Dean's character. I have a hard time with anyone saying that their view of the show is right and others of us just don't get it because we aren't Samgirls.
# JuliaG 2015-02-04 19:15
Leah, my "bitter" comment was about Dean Season 5 vs. Sam season 10. It had nothing to do with what Dean girls think of Sam. Also, notice that I said "most" not "all" Dean girls, and I stand by that comment. Look at all the hate thrown Sam's way for his anger after Dean's betrayal last year. I'm not saying that's what you think, but many are only happy with Sam when he's a better, more supportive brother that Dean has ever been and will turn on him as soon as they think that he's too mean to Dean, and the reason doesn't matter. Anyways, it's a sore point for me.
# LEAH 2015-02-04 19:57
Fair enough Julia, what I said is a sore point with me too. This site has been, in general, very supportive of Sam. I can't address what is said elsewhere I find it toxic and disturbing. No character avoids a thrashing. I have been very upset with all the people here who are upset and defensive over Sam stuff (to put it simply) and yet have no problem saying repeatedly what an abusive, mean, bad brother Dean is even accusing him of almost driving Sam to suicide. So if Sam gets a ration of crap on the internet you know how I feel. I always try and see both characters as damaged from childhood and therefore deserving of a sympathetic view. For the record I love both characters better when they are supportive of each other. I have never been as seriously close to leaving the site as I have been the last few weeks. The atmosphere is sour and people have lost their sense of humor.
# Prix68 2015-02-04 22:29
I agree with Leah here. Dean is referred to in all sorts of negative ways on this site that you would not never be allowed to say regarding Sam. Every action and word Dean says is relentlessly picked apart to look for a slight done to Sam either past or present. The negatives about this episode started before it was even aired!
# ParadiseHeat 2015-02-05 17:52
Sam is a better and more supportive brother, this year has proven it. Where Dean would have told Sam to stow his crap, man up, locked him up and left him to die or called him a bitch Sam has done the xact opposite. He's listened, reassured, not made Dean's issues all about himself as Dean has often done in the past when it comes to Sam's issues. Ok Sam hasnt been an active participant in anything since episode 3 but Carver has said that Sam is going to go 'dark' and basically going to re-align his entire moral compass to live up to Dean standards just to save the guy. If that happens I'll be fairly pleased with how Sam has been handled this season, no I wont re-watch any episode up till at least episode 16 which is when I think we may actually start getting a scene or two of Sam's arc buy I'll take what I can get right now when it comes to Carver's writing of Sam. At least he's likable which is more than I can say for the rest of the characters who have spent all season whining and wallowing.

What I'm hoping is that they build up to Sam going dark to save Dean gradually till the end of the season then have whatever Sam does and the consequences be the main focus of next season with Dean needing to take the back seat role Sam has had this season. It would probably be good for Dean to be able to just hunt, save people after the past 3 seasons of such heavy angsting, guilt and such. I think season 11 might be the time to start focusing on Sam as a person without something being wrong with him. Let him have connections, gain some self confidence and live a little.

I dpnt really rate this season at all, in fact I think overall its been one of the weakest of the series and thats saying something but I am pleased that some of the Sam bashing has stopped in the fandom (even if the writers seem to like to bash Sam at every opportunity like he's the one in control of the storylines written for him). I guess its better to be silent and plotless than to be used as plot device without a POV anyway jsut to further/add to someone else's epic angst/storyline .
# eilf 2015-02-04 16:58
JuliaG I agree with you completely on this. It is so incredibly frustrating because honestly it wouldn't need THAT much of a change to remember how Dean used be when the shoe was on the other foot, and have him acknowledge it. They are supposed to be brothers who love each other and are good people, wouldn't you think a certain amount of honesty in that relationship would be seen. It would have been in season 1 or 2 or 3.
I thought this ep was boring, predictable and a rerun of BB. And for me 'You pulled a Dean Winchester' is possibly the clunkiest line this show has ever produced (YMMV) (and would have been if it had been 'You pulled a Sam Winchester'). When did the boys start thinking of themselves as catchphrases in their own lives? They are supposed to be ordinary people with extraordinary lives. I wish the writers would stop with the fan-boying.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 22:09
JuliaG, Bevie's comments are recently of the same kind.Two sentences about the episode while moaning about "Dean vs Sam".These are the same people whose comments if you read till season 5 you will be surprised that they would even comment like this.The moaning and groaning by that group of fans was epic then.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 22:34
Heck Julia G..In tumblr I read a post about How a fan from that group asked a question to Colin about ..Get this"...Jared's whiny acting..".They moan even during conventions.
# Attie 2015-02-05 02:57
I believe the Let's Speculate area (the area you're reading and posting on) IS the specially segregated or divided area of the site that was demanded by, and set up for, people like you so that you wouldn't have to read comments that you didnt want to read. It was also there as a place where fans who were frustrated with what they were seeing on screen could express their opinions without fear of being attacked or belittled or berated. Unfortunately, the endless griping and moaning and complaining about posters and their opinions still continues.
# hlnkid 2015-02-04 15:20
I'm with ya, paintgirl, I absolutely loved this episode. It had everything SPN is and all that I love about the show. Sam was extremely funny here and I loved how this ep helped to move along the MOC storyline. That kid Dylan...he's got Dean DOWN! It's so perfect. The ending about killed me though...rockin g out to Taylor Swift and Dean NOT changing the station! Ha! Brilliant.

Loved loved loved this episode!
# AlyCat22 2015-02-04 15:37
Bevie - Just skip the Sam~vs~Dean stuff, unfortunately there's no escaping it. Please don't stop posting because of it. I understand Sam girl frustrations but they seem to forget Dean fans went thru it in the past as well. I just try and watch the story as it unfolds realizing how fortunate we all are that we have this awesome show in the first place. Does it mean that I as a Dean girl don't get frustrated when I feel Dean's just background noise? Of course I do and I have, but if the alternate would be no show at all then I say bring it on!
# Claire63 2015-02-04 15:55
I too wanted to add some positive comments for balance. I quite enjoyed the episode - it won't be one of my favourites but certainly not the worst episode of recent years. Teen Dean was fantastic (although the lack of green contact lenses for young Dylan bothers me tremendously, although as I have to watch online from the UK I'm not sure if I'm seeing colours perfectly!). He really did get Jensen's mannerisms into the performance. I know that Teen Dean saved Sam but I suppose AG had to show Dean making that choice to accept the Mark of Cain - Sam's trust in Dean's strength of character to resist its effects obviously struck home in a way that nothing else could do. The brotherly bond is stronger than ever before. Conversley, as others have said, Sam rescued Dean from Hansel and I loved how he flew into protective brother mode in the bar earlier in the episode.

As an aside, I just assumed that when the angels (including reapers) returned to heaven then the trapped souls were released?
# njspnfan 2015-02-04 15:59
As an aside, I just assumed that when the angels (including reapers) returned to heaven then the trapped souls were released?
it has not been addressed or referenced at all; the angels still need to use the playground portal to get back and forth so that could infer that the souls are still trapped in the veil.
# LEAH 2015-02-04 16:08
Well I completely disagree with many of you. I thought it was a fun and fast moving episode. I thought Sam was anything but useless and incompetent. I didn't see anything at all about Dean being the "best brother ever" and how he sacrificed to feed Sammy and how strong and wonderful he is. Yeah in the opening there were a few scenes from previously episodes but this is a review of this episode. For the record I didn't think BB did that either, that was twisted by the fans into something it wasn't IMO. Besides he WAS and is a good brother, as is Sam, in spite of some bad moments from both brothers through the years. Both Dean and Sam spent time incapacitated this episode. Sam was in most every scene, save a few, and when he was he was absolutely great. He said a hellava lot more than a couple of lines. I did cringe when Sam got knocked out again, but more for that reaction it was going to get than anything else. I though BOTH Dean and Sam were heroic and awesome in this episode. The actors who played Teen Dean and Tina were so good. Dylan had Dean's mannerisms down pat. I give him credit for making this version of dean so believable. Madeline is a lovely and expressive young actress. I love how much Sam is standing firm in his belief in Dean and how Dean is accepting Sam's support and letting Sam drive the bus. I love that Dean chose to come back so he could be better able to join Sam in defeating the witch and cohort. As for the Easter bunny thing, my granddaughter is 11 and still believes in Santa, though she is on to the Easter bunny myth. So although it is stretching it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. I loved this episode.
# Lilah_Kane 2015-02-04 16:53
Couldn't say it better myself Leah. I really liked Tina. Both versions.

And she survived! *cheer* ;)

- Lilah
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 22:15
As for the Easter bunny thing, my granddaughter is 11 and still believes in Santa,
It has everything to do with the life Sam and Dean had.It is not incoceivable to think your granddoughter believed that but Sam?Quote:
as is Sam
So,If they do not spend time showing this..BB and this episode. where was/is Sam's?
# LEAH 2015-02-04 22:33
Where was/is Sam's what anonymousN? Him being shown as a good brother? Almost always! In this episode especially. In BB the focus was on young Dean for sure, we need some young Sam flashbacks too, I agree but I didn't and still don't see how that episode depicted Sam as a bad brother. Of course it, as all of this stuff it is in how one interprets it I just didn't see the reason for the outrage. I did understand the canon issues.

As for the Easter bunny (I find this funny, sorry) I said it wasn't inconceivable. It has been shown that Sam was pretty protected as a child. But taking their life into account it probably isn't realistic. So whatever, it didn't bother me that much.:)
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 22:43
we need some young Sam flashbacks too,
This is the thing .As there are fans for Dean there are fans for Sam.Let me ask you a question .How do you feel when you get a look into Dean's childhood?

The thing is I am a fan of Sam and frankly I have thirsted for a episode which gives me insight into Sam's childhood.
So whatever, it didn't bother me that much.
That is fair Leah...I will confess something i do not think i will watch this episode (it will telecast in weekend for us),I have not watched the last one i will be coming to this website to see whether even an iota of information about sam is given then i will watch it.
You guys are happy well good for that.I do not begrudge you that.We are unhappy .
# LEAH 2015-02-04 22:55
I don't begrudge you or anyone else for being unhappy nor do I think unhappy people should not post. I just wish that we (the collective) could discuss things without it getting combative. I don't even mind people disliking or criticizing Dean but it is often the WAY it's said that stings. Like he is reprehensible. I think you would be missing out on some great Sam scenes if you don't watch but that is up to you! He does get knocked down but the episode is well worth watching in my opinion. Everybody has their heroic and badass moments.

Edited to add: When I see glimpses into the childhood of Dean OR Sam my overwhelming feeling is sadness for those boys. What they went through, having no mother and a distant father. Yes I totally agree we are due for some young Sam flashback.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 23:01
I have had to have to hear about Sam's selfishness leah.This is how I felt when sam had mytharc. Jared was disparaged for getting Sam's part.Every episode i went into it was always "now what will sam be blamed for?"
# LEAH 2015-02-04 23:09
I do understand anonymousN and it isn't right, but there are many of us here and elsewhere who don't think that way! Yet it feels like we get blamed for what people say elsewhere or people read in to our posts Sam blame that isn't there. I am not saying there hasn't been some, but it is pretty rare here.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 23:19
I think you would be missing out on some great Sam scenes if you don't watch but that is up to you!
NNo , I know this.I want to ask you something.You are dean fan who loves Sam and i am sure of this.So I will ask you.Does sam have an interaction with Tracy?Was the scene where Sam is down realistic.I have read comments saying 14 year Dean too was banged up and worser than sam but Sam was the one who was downed.
# LEAH 2015-02-04 23:43
I will try to be honest and still not spoil very much in case you decide to watch. There was more interaction with Dean by Tina but in the context of the story and what they went through it seems right. Young Dean was bruised up he had a few confrontations. There were other parts in the episode besides Sam getting knocked down where he was bad ass. He does not come off incompetent in my view. I thought he was strong and decisive and yes supportive of Dean, I don't see that as a bad thing at all. You may see things differently. It was a funny episode and had some great lines from all. I loved Sam in this and not just because he was being a rock for Dean. I don't see things through the same eyes as some, so I can only give my view as to how I saw it.
# SanSummer1 2015-02-04 23:27
There was a funny scene of Jared getting nearly folded in half in the Impala when young Dean moved the seat forward so he could reach the pedals better.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 23:30
saw the gifs for it:)
# E 2015-02-04 23:51
It's been shown that Sam was pretty savvy as a kid, protected or not. He stole his father's journal to read what his family actually did for a living, which means that A) he noticed that their family wasn't 'normal,' and B) that his father and brother weren't telling him everything, or possibly anything and were keeping things from him. Instead of asking he found out for himself AND he figured out where to look, pretty resourceful for an 8 year old. It was also clear from AVSNC that Sam no longer believed in Santa; he never once asked about Santa coming to their motel room, he only wanted their father to come home. To think that the kid we saw in AVSNC could believe in the easter bunny at even 8, let alone 11 1/2 is ludicrous. The kid we saw in AVSNC would have found out on his own if he couldn't get any real answers from his father or Dean and he was nobody's fool. AG has this idea that Sam was a pampered, sheltered, clueless kid when its been long established that he was not, neither of them were.
# LEAH 2015-02-05 00:19
As I told anonymousN, it wasn't inconceivable to me, however with their life it was probably unrealistic to think he still believed in the Easter bunny. For me it wasn't a huge deal. I myself, in referring to Sam as protected, didn't use that term as equivalent to pampered. I meant is as kept safe from harm and I think both John and Dean wanted to keep Sam a normal child as long as possible. Even with the knowledge that he obtained in AVSC he was still a child. A smart and resourceful child. But still a child.
# LEAH 2015-02-05 00:31
Oh I forgot to mention that Sam did believe in Santa in that episode. He asked Dean if Santa was real. Sad. He finds monsters are real and Santa wasn't. I hated that. But it does stretch credibility to think 3 yrs after he would still believe in the Easter bunny so really no argument from me there.
# Sharon 2015-02-05 03:29
It is important because it keeps promoting this idea Sam was this protected child all the time who was oblivious to the world around him that John and Dean were alway protecting him and sometimes that was not the case. Sam grew up fast after reading that journal and Adam's keeps making out that Sam was a child that would play with a aeroplane or believe in the Easter Bunny afterwards, and I do not think Adam even takes that moment Sam read his dad's journal into account when he writes these things.
# Prix68 2015-02-05 05:35
I took the Easter bunny comment as a tongue in cheek exchange between two brothers, not that Sam actually believed in the Easter bunny until eleven. It was Dean saying that Sam might be naive to have that much faith in Dean. Just like I don't believe Sam meant 14 year old Dean would still be wearing underoos or ever wore underoos.
# lala2 2015-02-05 07:24
That comment was definitely meant to be taken seriously otherwise why did Sam correct the age? Dean told Sam he believed in the Easter Bunny until he was 12, Sam said it was more like 11, Dean looks at him like, "yeah right," and Sam begrudgingly admits it was 11 1/2. If it was just a joke or wasn't meant to be taken seriously then Sam wouldn't have bothered to correct Dean.

In any event, this line of dialogue was troubling for me for exactly the reason Sharon stated. It is indicative, IMO, of AG's (and Carver's) lack of caring about this show, its characters, and its established history. I found AG's portrayal of Sam in BB last year to be downright insulting in both the past and the present. Sam fared much better in this year's episode, but AG still messed up his established history and wrote him to be an ineffectual, incompetent hunter, which must be Carver's theme this year.

IMO, there is a larger problem here, which details like this highlight. This regime, IMO, simply doesn't care what has been established or written before them. Reapers are suddenly angels. There are back doors to Purgatory. Sam can't read signs at 9 and is completely clueless about their life. They've visited the Grand Canyon. Dean's CBGB story. Sam believes in the Easter Bunny at 12. Stuff like this has caused me to become very disillusioned w/this regime. They don't expand on established history; they just re-create it to fit whatever story they are trying to tell.

Anyway, I had to get that off my chest.
# eilf 2015-02-05 19:18
I have a long term prediction going that by the time we get to Adam Glass writing a young Sam flashback it will show that as a child Dean worked as a chimney-sweep in order to fund Sam going to Hogwarts :P
# SanSummer1 2015-02-04 18:47
This episode went by pretty quickly or rather it felt that adult Dean came back quickly.

Dean needs to throw that freaking mirror from his room in the trash so he’ll stop being tempted to gaze in the mirror.

Dean is all frown-y when he is thinking hard XD

That big ass book Dean was reading looked a little too new.

I’m all for characterizing little Sammy as innocent but I don’t buy that Sam still believed in the Easter Bunny when he was eleven and a half. Sam was eight when he learned from Dean that Santa is not real. Maybe Adam Glass watched Nerd HQ and was somewhat inspired by Misha’s Easter Bunny story.

Now that Sam said to Dean that they don’t have to split up after he saw Dean being hesitant, I kind of wish that they would have shown that Dean has become clingier. :D Like I would have wanted to see Sam become more inclined to keep Dean closer right after the events of Mystery Spot.

Dean being an alcoholic is a storyline that has been on and off but it seems to have come back. Dean even acknowledges his problem with drinking.

Dean chatting up a woman seemed to be an excuse for him to order more shots.

I hope that the story of how young Dean had had to come up with different ways to make macaroni and cheese won’t be seen as more evidence of Dean being some long-suffering caretaker because of Sam.

Dean toasting to crappy childhood? I dunno...

I didn’t like that Dean was about to blow Sam off when Sam called him. Dean took Sam’s call only after Tina had already decided to leave.

Sam was pretty quick to get physically aggressive when he noticed that the bartender had Dean’s belongings. Foreshadowing?

Why was Dean so eager to eat cake? He had more pressing matters to attend to. It’s not like the spell was supposed to make him desperately hungry and cake isn’t even a particular favorite of his.

It’s pretty interesting how Dean took the lead and Sam followed even though Dean had been de-aged.

Sam should get to drive the Impala more often! That easy driving was sexy. :D

Sam not being able to keep his eyes off of young Dean was pretty great. :D

I like that Dean was so matter-of-fact about it maybe being for the best if he didn’t have the mark even if it meant having to be a teenager again. It shows how much he wants to get rid of the mark because of what it does to him but also that he is willing to put the safety of others first.

What was up with Hansel, why had he eaten his sister?

Did the witch’s accent waver a bit?

I didn’t really buy the whole Americans-are-s o-amazing-to-ea t-for-their-fat since none of the adults were big in size. And why kidnap Dean or Tina for that matter? They didn’t look like people who would not be missed.

Sam slumped down a bit too easily? I anticipated him to be able to free Tina.

For a moment, I wanted Colin Ford to appear as de-aged Sam. :D It would have been cute to see Dean’s reaction to seeing young Sammy in the flesh again (not that that boy doesn’t still exist in Dean’s head).

Dean killed the witch ruthlessly but he did it professionally so he seems to be doing better. I hope it has something to do with Sam being so confident that Dean can beat the mark.

I felt that the talk at the end of the episode was in some ways a reference to 9.12 Sharp Teeth and 8.23 Sacrifice.

The music at the beginning of the episode was much better than at the end.

I thought that Dylan Everett did a good job. For instance, I saw the character Dean when he was packing his bags at the motel.

Now it makes even less sense that they didn’t keep Dean’s original age in Bad Boys.

I think that this show would have a better track record regarding young female characters if they had more young actresses like the one in this episode… Or maybe the writers just have to keep in mind that they can write those characters as being mature even when the characters aren’t supposed to be thirty-somethin g mentally.

It was a breath of fresh air to see Dean be more carefree when he was young again so hopefully he can keep some of that attitude as an adult even though the mark is back. Things seem to be pretty good between the brothers and isn’t that supposed to be the main barometer for how Dean feels about his life?

Dean wanted that second chance but I hope that he also wants to be Sam’s brother like how Sam was glad to have Dean back despite the mark being back too. And it’s hard for me to believe that Dean could have handled not being Sam’s big brother the way he is used to being long-term.

In any case, Dean would have had some major limitations as a hunter if he had opted for keeping his teenage body.

It’s pretty unusual to hear one of the brothers thank the other one at the end of a case so I presume Sam wanted to thank Dean for deciding to turn back into his old self. Maybe for some reason Adam Glass wanted to show Sam being all grateful. Yet Dean would never let Sam get killed no matter what so it was still a bit weird.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-04 18:52
I forgot to mention Tina!!! Actresses who played each part did a great job and I thought it was kinda cool how their eyes were similar - or maybe it was just their eye expressions? And yay x2000 finally a young female teen that didn't make me want to scratch my own eyes out! Great acting all around, great ep. Interesting interview with Dylan. Loving his portrayal.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-04 18:53
I forgot to mention Tina!!! Actresses who played each part did a great job and I thought it was kinda cool how their eyes were similar - or maybe it was just their eye expressions? And yay x2000 finally a young female teen that didn't make me want to scratch my own eyes out! Great acting all around, great ep. Interesting interview with Dylan. Loving his portrayal.
# PENNY JAIME 2015-02-04 19:00
# AlyCat22 2015-02-04 21:15
Leah - I just wanted to say that I second your response to JuliaG. I'd also like to add that I sometimes find it exhausting trying to come up with ways that I can express my thoughts so as to avoid another Sam dust up. It can be really frustrating. It seems like people are just so ready to take offense for the slightest thing. I too love both characters, I just have always been drawn to Dean. It's interesting that they are we both so flawed and complex. Like I've said before - I'm looking for conversation (and discussion) not combat. Posts so often become a tit-for-tat, Sam vs Dean... That being said - one thing I am curious about is this repeated desire that Dean apologize to Sam. I can see Dean saying I'm sorry in general but so many want to see Dean's mea culpa for an entire laundry list of offenses, and won't be happy unless he acknowledges them one by one. Okay that's an exaggeration but does anyone think anything like that is ever going to happen? They are grown men. I can't see them sharing and caring like that. Besides that I don't think Sam would really want anything beyond a basic apology. They both should apologize to the other but in a way they kinda are this season.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 22:49
I can see Dean saying I'm sorry in general but so many want to see Dean's mea culpa for an entire laundry list of offenses, and won't be happy unless he acknowledges them one by one.
You have said that is an exagerration yes that is.We asked Dean to apologise for the possession..Quote:
They are grown men. I can't see them sharing and caring like that.
If only you had read Dean fan comments about Sam apologizing.Quote:
Besides that I don't think Sam would really want anything beyond a basic apology.
Has he got that.Quote:
They both should apologize to the other but in a way they kinda are this season.
This is a nice strategy by Dean fans lump sam with Dean.Dean has got his "basic apology" now its Sam turn to get his.
# LEAH 2015-02-05 07:10
Thanks AlyCat22.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-04 22:01
I forgot to say - kinda in response to JuliaG's earlier post but also to posters in general...becau se it's upsetting to read Leah say shes ready to leave the site. So in an effort to understand, not tick anyone off - I just don't see all this hate, abuse and anger thrown at the character of Sam (or at Sam girls) happening HERE at this site so is the problem that this is what you guys experience elsewhere which makes you more inclined to expect the same anytime a Dean girl posts? I don't bash Sam, and I don't think I've read any posts with OTT comments (and if I missed or don't remember them, I apologize). I've even seen responses of 'that's a lie' - not necessarily directed to me or maybe it was (again I can't remember, but it's somewhere in one of these threads). Isn't that a bit much? Overly sensitive maybe? Mama taught me not to lie and if I did it sure wouldn't be over a TV Show, you know? I've seen it stated that people aren't happy with the way Sams story is going compared to the attention Dean is getting this year and that it's a sore spot and I get it, I do, and I haven't been crazy about some of Deans past storylines...bu t is that any reason to be so defensive with our comments to each other? The reason I'm bringing this up is not to point fingers but to draw awareness that maybe those kind of things are indicative as to why there are repeat performances of flame wars. I've read so many really interesting well thought out comments and discussions - that's what drew me to actually participate and stop lurking. I really enjoy those kind of interactions. Hopefully we can find our way back there? If anyone thinks I've overstepped my boundaries - again, I apologize. Not looking to upset anyone. I am a relatively new whipper snapper to this board but I just felt like I needed to say something from my vantage point as a Dean girl contributor.
# anonymousN 2015-02-04 22:55
you guys experience elsewhere which makes you more inclined to expect the same anytime a Dean girl posts?
Noo alycat it has happened in this site I have had many seasons of this in this site.Maybe you are new to this site (as in commenting here recently) .But many of us have a longer history with this site.Quote:
'that's a lie'
It was me.I said it because it was a lie.Quote:
If anyone thinks I've overstepped my boundaries - again, I apologize.
No alycat you have not.I just wish we could speak face to face so that I could tell you what i want to say without any misunderstandin g.
# LEAH 2015-02-04 23:25
I've been here a long time myself, less than you but years. It has always been a Sam friendly site. Yes there were a few, very few, who came on and were insulting to Sam but a lot of us came to his defense. Not just Sam fans. But through the years saying one character or the other is "selfish" has been uttered many times. Not always without due cause but big deal. People are selfish sometimes. That has never bothered me as much as some other stuff like anyone saying one brother doesn't love the other or they should split up. Or an actor should just quit and go find a better job. I love that one!.:) I think it was nice to say that you wished you could talk to Alycat face to face so you wouldn't be misunderstood. Honestly if we were all face to face the discourse would be much better.
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 01:36
Yes there were a few, very few, who came on and were insulting to Sam but a lot of us came to his defense.
You were late for the party Leah.:p
Sam was always considered selfish.Sam goes to Stanford ..well he is selfish.He wants to have a family selfish (Same people went to college have their own family).Now even after sam went to hell he was selfish.I got tired and started responding somewhere in that comments well Dean sacrificed the world for Sam and Sam left Dean alone to Save the world so who is selfish.Sometimes it gets a bit too much.there used to be sentiment which was expressed quite number of time that next time when Sam breathes he would be called selfish.Quote:
Or an actor should just quit and go find a better job.
This was the worst for me.One even had the audacity of doing that in a con not to quit but .when I haerd what happened I was like wow.
# LEAH 2015-02-05 02:03
Late to a party? I never have any fun!:) Well in the 3 years or so I have been lurking, then posting as a guest and then becoming a member I did not observe much of that so maybe it was different before that. I don't know. Anyway it's late and I have to get up at 3:45 am. So good night for now.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 00:45
Anonymous - Was that "it's a lie; directed at something I said? Because if so then "Houston, we have a problem." Calling out something as a lie as opposed to say, giving the other poster common courtesy is part of the problem. Who are you to say they are lying? Maybe they remembered or looked at something differently than you. Like I said, if I were inclined to lie it sure wouldn't be over a TV show. I'll even go out on a limb and say that I'm fairly certain everyone who posts here feels the same.
If you meant it was a lie on the show as in one character lying to the other, maybe you need to clarify - otherwise it looks as if you are stating the poster is a liar and that? Not cool.
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 01:14
I do not remember telling it to you ..But recently I had said it to Prix but it was about this site and not the show.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 01:10
Anonymous - It isn't just the possession people are expecting Dean to apologize for but for sake of argument, say it is. If Sam ever gets a direct apology for that I will be surprised. I think Dean stated it last season - that he'd do it again. Good, bad or indifferent, Sam is alive and by his side and that is something Dean will never be sorry for, so if he were to apologize - I think it would be hollow. I can't fault Dean for that decision anymore than I would if Sam were the one to make it. If it had worked without it becoming the fubar it did then I really don't think Sam would've been upset. But that's just me. It's unfortunate that Kevin got killed but if Metatron wanted him dead he would've found another way to do it. I just can't get all that worked up about what Dean felt in his desperation he had to do. They live desperate lives, they have to make desperate choices. They don't often have the luxury of time. Its more often a matter of life and death, split second decisions. It takes me forever to decide on what eyeshadow I should buy - I'm gonna give the choices Sam and Deans have to make the benefit of the doubt...
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 01:20
It's unfortunate that Kevin got killed but if Metatron wanted him dead he would've found another way to do it.
If Sam had not broken the last seal some other seal would have been broken but as it is in the show sam broke the last seal and it was Dean not informing Kevin that had him open to Gadreel.Quote:
It isn't just the possession people are expecting Dean to apologize for but for sake of argument, say it is.
This is what I was asking for and I am a people.many in this site were people like me.Quote:
I think Dean stated it last season - that he'd do it again.
That does not mean he was wrong to deceive Sam.many criminals,liars,deceivers do not apologize but that does not mean the victims don't deserve one.I know Dean did not apologize that is his flaw not something I will look over because Dean will not.Quote:
I just can't get all that worked up about what Dean felt in his desperation he had to do.
There is a history in this website of Dean fans getting worked up for what Sam did in desperation.Quote:
They don't often have the luxury of time. Its more often a matter of life and death, split second decisions
Death was waiting.This is what I meant by lying.There was time. if you want to change the story that is lying whether you like it or not.Dean had enough time to tell sam the truth .At that time for Dean it was an angel vetted by Cas one who he trusted he could have told Sam.Don't change the canon.Quote:
It takes me forever to decide on what eyeshadow I should buy - I'm gonna give the choices Sam and Deans have to make the benefit of the doubt...
Eyeshadow? how is this relevant.Dean lied however you cut and dice.For a guy who gave Sam grief for lying that was hypocrytical.He has to apologize to Sam.Dean lied to sam because he knew what Sam wanted i.e what Sam told to death.
# LEAH 2015-02-05 01:53
Quoting anonymous;
"there is a history in this website of Dean fans getting worked up for what Sam did in desperation."

I think I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. Not that it hasn't ever happened, just that there is a "history" which makes it sound like it is a common thing. I have been here a long time as well. I might add that was a fair share of Sam fans getting worked up about Dean's act of desperation in trying to prevent Sam's death. It wasn't premeditated. It wasn't malicious, it was desperation. Was it right? No. Did he compound it afterwards? Yes. He turned Gadreel/Ezekiel down at first knowing Sam wouldn't agree. Then life support machines went crazy and it looked like he was going to lose his brother and so he made a decision borne of "desperation". All the fans here are passionate and get worked up sometimes.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 02:43
Anonymous - That death was waiting is your interpretation. That there was time is your interpretation. If you call me a liar again you are going to hear my interpretation. You would be well served to stop holding on so hard to the past. It's past - get over it and move on. It's unfair to judge current posters for something done earlier that they had no part of. If you have a disagreement with something I post then thats what discussion is for and thats fine. Realize however that you sometimes state things as factual when it really comes down to your opinion. You state Death being present is canon when there has never been anything definitive on that point. Everything else was Sams mind - Bobby, Dean so it leads one to believe that the same thing applied to Death. The actor even stated it wasn't Death. I have a hard time believing it was Death just based on how he talked - about how he was honored to reap Sam... Really? That is not the "Canon Death" who told Dean to imagine how insignificant he was to something as old as he. I would question if it was Death if the situation was reversed and it was Dean he came to reap. Why would he care? "Canon Death" wouldn't. Sam was flat lining so how much time he actually had could be questionable.

Leah - x2000 for your last post. If people could get beyond being stuck on past indiscretions it would be easier to carry on conversations dealing with the present. Sheesh! Sam and Dean lived it and even they have managed to move beyond. :)
# Attie 2015-02-05 03:09
The actor who played Death said he didn't believe it was Death because he wasn't eating in the scene. However, Death hadn't been eating is half the scenes he's been in, including some where he dealt with Dean. Was that only in Dean's mind too? The actor also said in the same interview that Death considered himself an old uncle to Sam and Dean and that he'd be honoured to reap Dean when Dean's time comes. And if he wasn't really Death then it's strange that 'Dean' was able to talk to him directly while in Sam's mind. When people are near death they get reapers. That is a fact. Bobby got one, Dean got one, so there's no reason why Sam wouldn't also get one.
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 03:44
It's past - get over it and move on.
Realize however that you sometimes state things as factual when it really comes down to your opinion.
Nope they are factual.Quote:
The actor even stated it wasn't Death.
did not happen in the show .What happens in cons stays in cons.Quote:
about how he was honored to reap Sam
Because we cant have someone who told Dean is insignificant to be honoured to Reap Sam.Ok got it.Quote:
I would question if it was Death if the situation was reversed and it was Dean he came to reap. Why would he care? "Canon Death" wouldn't.
Time has elapsed since then.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 02:57
Anon - So if you, like me, don't think Dean will ever apologize to Sam the way you want then why are you so hung up on it. I don't see Sam whining about it. I think once Dean died in his arms last season that all of that went out the window. I think at that point he would rather have had his big bro back with all his flaws than any damned apology. Yes Sam was hurt emotionally, phyically over the possession but that lost its hold on Sam once he witnessed Deans death. Sam gained understanding once he was faced with a dying brother. I don't think Sams brought it up since then - has he? Obviously Dean still feels guilty (Metatrons review of Deans greatest hits) and he is going to have to learn to forgive himself, but that's another story. So if SAM can let it go - why can't you accept that he has and move forward?
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 03:39
So if you, like me, don't think Dean will ever apologize to Sam the way you want then why are you so hung up on it.
Because Dean fans were hung up on Sam's apology (even after he apologized ) and I had to read those comments.I am given back the crap i got .
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 03:35
Attie - Why would it be strange for Dean to talk to Death if it was a construct of Sams mind? He (Dean) could talk to Sam. I just don't buy it 100% just based on the way "Death" was talking to Sam. It rang false to me, because it sounded the same as the conversation with Bobby and we know Bobby was of Sams mind. I honestly disliked those conversations because the way they were worded made Sam sound like he was full of himself. Construct Bobby telling Construct Dean that Sam 'saved me from Hell, Jackass!' That reflected poorly on Sam if that's really how he felt because he is negating Deans part in it - not to mention poor Benny - and the fact that he would still be stuck in Purgatory if not for Deans actions. I hated how they wrote Sam for those scenes.
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 03:47
Construct Bobby telling Construct Dean that Sam 'saved me from Hell, Jackass!'
because he did.Dean and Benny saved him from purgatory.
# Attie 2015-02-05 04:18
I very much differ on that. I don't think Sam sounded arrogant at all, quite the opposite. He seemed stunned that Death acknowledged that Sam has done good as well. I'm gladthat somebody on the show acknowledged it. For so long he's been told that all he does is screw up and let people down so all he must do is apologise and atone. And I'm glad that Sam himself acknowledged that he saved Bobby because he did. Dean accepts sole responsibility for stopping the Apocalypse so I don't know why you think that Sam, even subconsciously, believing he saved Bobby is arrogant and him being full of himself.

I think it's strange that Dean talked to Death because at that time he was doing everything he could to get Sam to say yes. He already knew about the deal. Surely the best way to get him to agree with his plan was to have Sam believe that Death wasn't real and so, there was no deal.
# Sharon 2015-02-05 04:46
I saw others have a go at Sam over the percieved slight to Dean and Benny and their hero status in that moment. Sam was suppose to be grateful for what Benny did and the 'arrogant' Sam did not acknowledge it by proclaiming he saved Bobby from hell while lying in a coma dying because that was the important thing to take away from all of that. He did save Bobby from hell he just was not supposed to say so that was all , and while Dean's self esteem needs all the bolstering it can have , Sam,s need to believe he did some good and he was not always the failure was seen as 'arrogant' .
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 03:42
Anon - Hence the root of the problem.
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 03:45
Yes asking me to let go? Yaeh sure I knew that was the root of the problem
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 03:54
Actually Anon, it is. You just can't or won't see it.

Semantics. Sam saved Bobby from Hell but there would've been no return if Dean hadn't acted as he had. If the situation we're reversed I wouldn't be saying Dean saved Bobby from Hell.... They are a team.
# anonymousN 2015-02-05 05:41
I am not snarky.Sam stopped the apocalypse (with Dean's help) Death is allowed to be impressed by one human.That is Sam.Quote:
Sam saved Bobby from Hell
that is what Sam said nothing more nothing less.The no return part you attached.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 04:08
Anon - Death said how insignificant we are. Blah, blah, galaxies. Blah, blah, God. Had nothing to do with Deans worth anymore than Sams. Im old, Dean... Death was pretty clear how we are a speck not worth his time. I don't buy that it was anything but Sams mind. Honestly can you stop this snarky crap about Dean ~vs~ Sam? It gets old, dude. Your conversations would be a lot more interesting without it. I like to discuss things with you and I often enjoy it but I always feel like I have to suit up for battle. You seem to think we all have these ulterior objectives. Remove the chip off your shoulder, it's not necessary here.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 04:43
Attie -Where do you get that Dean claims responsibility for stopping the Apocalypse?

I disliked how they wrote the conversation with Bobby while walking in the woods, Bobby being Sams mind -- it just didn't sound like what Sam would say. Sam is more modest than that. If I'm to believe Bobby was Sam talking I just thought it made Sam sound bad. It's late. I don't have the specific wording - sorry.

I didn't understand your last paragraph?
# E 2015-02-05 07:50
Dean hasn't claimed responsibility, Attie didn't say that; she said he was CREDITED with it as though it was a sole accomplishment of his by Lisa and Charlie as though Sam wasn't even involved. It's the shows take on things, and one more instance of everyone forgetting what Sam has contributed. I can see fans forgetting, especially the Sam haters, but even the writers don't seem to remember correctly what really went down and that attitude is reflected in characters like Lisa and Charlie misquoting past events.
# Attie 2015-02-05 05:07
Twice Dean has been credited with stopping the Apocalypse, Lisa and Charlie, and he has never set them straight that no, it wasn't just him, his brother actually had a teeny tiny role in stopping it as well.

Oh, Sam certainly is more modest than that. It seems that it's only when Sam is inside his own mind at Sam is allowed to realise that he does save people as well. Might I just point out that 'Bobbys' comment was in reply to Deans demand that he thank Dean for the 'hell rescue'. All 'Bobby said after that was that maybe Sam had a point about not fighting death and not selling your soul. From there Sam says he doesn't know what's right, that he feels he's swinging at shadows and that maybe after all the good he has done, all the sacrifices he's made that maybe he could just die. Sam might be modest but that doesn't mean that, subconsciously at least, he doesn't know that he has done good. I'm sure he would never dare to vocalise that at any other time though. It would just show how 'full of himself' he is.

My last paragraph, if Death wasnt really there then why didn't 'Dean' tell Sam that. The only reason Sam was willing to go was because of the deal he made. So if there is no Death then there was no deal. Why didn't Dean tell Sam that there wasn't a reaper (Death) there for him?
# eilf 2015-02-05 20:02
I have been thinking about this and I had just come to the same conclusion as you Attie. Dean would NEVER have let Sam away with IMAGINING Death coming to rescue him in person. No way, he would have joked about it 'Really Sam, DEATH? The real deal? Big ego much?', maybe even to reduce the tension, or he would have used it as a way of encouraging Sam not to die - 'you don't know what is out there, what you think Death said is all in your imagination! Stay with me.' I mean it has been made clear that he would do anything in that moment to stop Sam from leaving him, he wouldn't play into a delusion that Sam was having.
On the other hand Dean has a LOT of respect for Death, knowing that it was Death Dean acknowledged him politely and didn't try to pretend that he wasn't real - cause you don't annoy Death and Dean has already got his final warning on that.

Sam with an open mind and an open heart and knowing very clearly what was in store for him, volunteered to go to hell to stop the Apocalypse while fighting off possession by an Archangel (which is Sam's huge win, and to that point has NEVER been mentioned or acknowledged by another character since it happened*). If that doesn't deserve personal service from Death it is hard to know what does.

Dean, on the other hand has shown on several occasions that he will try to take advantage of Death and so, while Death is pretty impressed by the cheek of it he has felt that Dean needs to be scared into not screwing with him. So Death has hauled him into line and told him not to bother him again for fear of getting splatted. This entire concept fits in perfectly with Dean's character and with Death's unwillingness to be annoyed by 'little specks of dust'.

Dean IN universe currently 100% believes that Death will splat him if he bothers him again.

WE all know perfectly well that when Dean dies he too will be rather astonished to discover that Death turns up for him in person and that Death will have nice things to say. Because we know that Death likes Dean. And we know that Dean has also done heroic things deserving of this level of kudos. (They're the freakin' Winchesters after all, you must have heard of them.)

To deny Death's compliment of showing up in person to Sam now - and that ONE character has said (to his face) that he admires Sam - when it doesn't reflect badly on any other character and is, for once, someone giving Sam an actual reason to feel good about the good he has done in his life, seems rather petty. Especially when it is necessary to add to and twist the scene to 'prove' that the show is saying that Sam is hallucinating.

*I really believe this to be the case, if anyone can think of a character mentioning that the Apocalypse stopped because Sam sacrificed himself for that to happen I would love to be reminded of it.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 13:45
Attie - For Chucks sake, don't you think that's nitpicking? No wonder I didn't remember it. So everytime there is a conversation where one or the other is given credit for something they are expected to break out a chart detailing each others involvement? C'mon, this is just silly. It's conversational. What did you expect Dean to say? Yeah, but Sam jumped in the hole...Yeah but... Did he deny Sams involvement? No? Well, there you go. I'm sure Sam has probably done the same at one point or another. Hell, when Construct Bobby was praising Sams having saved the world I didn't see Sam throwing a card and declaring 'Yeah, but Dean helped...' Sometimes everything doesn't have to be spelled out. I don't see how you guys manage to make it thru an episode being so hung up on things like this. I'm saying that humorously, but I kinda mean it too.

I still don't quite get what you mean by your last paragraph but that's okay. I think this is just a point we are going to have to agree to disagree on. The first time Zeke "showed" Dean Sams thoughts it was at Deans request that before/if he agreed that he had to know how bad it really was so Dean just observed. The way the 2nd time was written to me was confusing. Maybe it was Death, maybe not. Maybe it was Dean, maybe Zeke. I think it was written ambiguously on purpose. Not taking away anything from Sam but I just didn't like the way they wrote those construct characters conversations. But like I said, thats just me, so...everyone sees it differently. Any way that it did go down, it still resulted in the possession, and while some view that as horrendous and unforgiveable - I don't. But as I said, that's just me. :)
# Attie 2015-02-05 14:27
No AlyCat22, I don’t think it’s nitpicking. You asked for examples and I gave you examples. But as soon as you get those examples you start eyerolling and complaining about ‘nitpicking’.

I’m ending this ‘discussion’ now because AlyCat22, despite your constant declarations to the contrary, you persistently show that you've no interest in actual discussion. All you do is constantly complain about what people say when they say something you don’t want to read or you just don’t agree with. And of course, I’m saying that ‘humorously’, but I totally mean it too.
# AlyCat22 2015-02-05 15:24
I wasn't saying that you were nitpicking, I meant it in general. Point taken but I'm sorry, calling a character out for not correcting anothers conversational comment when it really didn't need to be said seems silly to me. Sam and Dean are viewed as a team - like I said, sometimes it doesn't need to be spelled out. If the situation were reversed and the conversation was between Sam and Jody, I wouldn't take offense or think Sam was purposely taking all the credit. That's the difference. Thats all I'm saying. They both have skin in the game. People are just too ready to get upset over what they view as hits against Sam, no matter how small.