As a long time fan, I just don’t know what to say. I’m usually open to a show re-inventing itself. I’m usually open to the idea of creative license. I’m usually open to pushing character studies over real action (at times). But I absolutely hated “The Things We Left Behind.” As in fire spewing, cursing TPTB with the power of a thousand suns hate. While I usually prefer to spare the major rants when many people saw something different than I, I have too much invested in this show not to say what’s bothering me. I’m not one that likes to ruin joy, so apologies up front to you happy fans. You might not want to read this. To you angry or perplexed fans, this review is for you. Let’s examine what about “Supernatural” is failing to connect this season, especially in this episode, and why the writing has clearly gone off the rails.
No one is guiltier in falling back on the art contrived plotting than Andrew Dabb. Not a whole lot of this story made sense. For those that may not be familiar with the trope, contrivances happen when a plot is forced to take a direction that doesn’t seem natural in order to meet a writer’s planned story theme or twist. For example, remember Dabb’s episode “Clip Show” when Sam and Dean left Abaddon alone in the warehouse so she could inexplicably escape? They would never do that! One would stay behind while the other took the call from Crowley. They aren’t that dumb. This episode had a lot of that. First, do you honestly think that Amelia, Jimmy’s wife, after all they had been through actually abandon her daughter like that? That was his big setup for Claire being in a group home? Killed by a demon would have been more plausible. Then there’s Claire herself, who we last remember was a very headstrong little girl. She was willing to take the place of her Dad as a vessel to save him! But no, she’s a troubled, angry, clueless teenager who’s obviously willing to be reckless to spite the world. Gotta create that tension between her and Castiel.
There’s the John Winchester story, which doesn’t make a lot of sense knowing what we knew about Dean so far during that time of his life. We’ve had enough flashbacks to his teen years. He didn’t exactly defy John at the time probably because he knew he’d get punished. It was Sam that was always rebelling. It doesn’t fit, despite me smiling at the idea of Dean sneaking into CBGB’s. Plus it was a cute story. It just really didn't serve any purpose. Then you have the end, which gives me the biggest fits of all. Why in the world would Sam, knowing Dean’s state of mind (he did notice the bulging Mark of Cain earlier), leave Dean alone in that house with the bad guys and go to the car with Castiel and Claire? They didn’t need his help. No, no, no, no, no! Sam is not that ignorant. These types of lazy plotting devices completely ruin the impact for me. That’s why Dabb’s scripts have often disappointed me more than impressed.
Then there’s just the whole predictability factor. Going back to the character of Claire Novak actually wasn’t a bad idea. They finally put to rest the long fandom debate about what happened to Jimmy Novak. I’m cool with this idea of the angels trying to connect with the messes they’ve left by taking on a vessel, but it all unraveled from there. The story fell into this soapy, listless drama that made me wonder what show I had turned on by mistake. Of course Castiel was going to break her out. Of course she would run away from him. Of course she’d end up trusting some sort of scumbag. After all, she’s an out of control, confused teenager! Now if Randy ended up being some sort of monster, or better yet an old angel colleague of Castiel’s, that would have spiced things up a little. Nope, he was an average scumbag and the guys after him were faceless thugs, the kind where we didn’t give a crap if they died. Yes they were humans, but they were bad humans who had it coming. We certainly knew the one dude wasn’t going to hurt Claire because Castiel would arrive just in time. We only see it every day in all those standard cop procedurals. But it made Castiel look badass and a hero swooping the save the day, right? Yeah, right. Don’t get me wrong, I love Castiel, but there are far better ways to use your angel warrior.
Then there’s Crowley. I just can’t fathom that this fearsome King of Hell that has survived every attack against him because he’s smart and knows threats before he sees them, is hovering in a warehouse somewhere dealing with mommy issues. This is not the Crowley we know. He didn’t even have any great lines! The plot pace with Crowley is that of a snail and it’s not really going anywhere. Here it is half way through the season and he’s still licking his wounds from losing Dean as a buddy. I think. Hell, I’m really not sure of Crowley’s motivations. All I can think of is why did Mark Sheppard become a regular just for this mess? He’s capable of delivering so much more. It’s turning into a colossal waste.
Then there’s the part that gets me more mad than anything. The Mark of Cain should be dominating the storylines. Probably because it’s supposed to be the main mytharc. I do accept that Dean was pulled away from being a demon quicker than most would have liked because of the 200th episode. But that doesn’t mean that the brothers shouldn’t be spending their time tracking down leads and dealing with the complications of the Mark for a decent amount of time on a weekly basis. Remember season three when Dean was doomed for Hell? Sure, one or two filler episodes are necessary, but we’ve had more than one or two. There’s so much unknown mythology behind the MOC that could be explored! That approach would raise the stakes quite a bit. Yes, they did show Dean unraveling a bit this week. I do appreciate that. But it’s kind of cruel to offer someone who’s dying of thirst a few drops of water. There needs to be more, much more.
I also lament over how beloved moose, one of the two main leads and a driving force in the “Supernatural” story, seems to be missing his purpose. He’s supposed to be the leader of the Men of Letters! He’s the dorky connection to the legacy! What happened? They introduced the whole Men of Letter’s bunker and that opened up a world of possibilities. They aren’t taking advantage of any of that. I just think of all Sam went through with the trials and being possessed by Gadreel, and his character progression from it is nothing more than he’s learned to make really good grilled cheese sandwiches. It really breaks my heart. There are so many dangling threads with Sam’s character they could go back and address (what happened with his demon blood, did the trials purify him?). But no, we get him hanging out in the car with Castiel while Dean goes ape s***.
There’s been very little movement with the MOC, there’s been little to no movement with the brothers, there’s been no movement with Castiel or Crowley. It seems that all four guys are wandering around in their little corners, drifting and trying to figure out life. To me, that’s been as much fun as watching paint dry. There’s no mission, no direction, just random happenings that aren’t coming together. I understand that the stories are supposed to be more “personal” this year, but in order to explore deeply the personal aspects of a story, you have to have an actual story! Story drives characters. It’s writing 101.
I’m a traditionalist. I fell in love with “Supernatural” because it was different. It wasn’t like any other show I’ve seen. Remember “no chick flick” moments and just good old fashioned demon busting action? Remember when they were breaking out some daring mythology using biblical and other non-canonical texts to make their own mind-blowing canon? Remember when the stories used to drive the characters, not the other way around? Remember when everything had really high stakes and mattered? Remember when this show actually used to be about the supernatural? Now it’s evolved to a below average soap opera using melodrama and lazy plots to cover up the fact that the writers are clearly out of ideas. There are no risks being taken in the story telling because there is no story telling.
I don’t like average TV dramas. I watch serial sci-fi because that’s my thing. I chose this show because it was thrilling and wildly creative. Honestly, if I wanted to see such overwrought character dynamics on a Tuesday night I would turn the channel to “Chicago Fire.” I spent most of the hour waiting for something to happen, and nothing did until the final few seconds. Was that enough to energize me through a midseason break? Not by a long shot. Where are you Eric Kripke? Why haven’t you burst into the writers office there at Warner Brothers with a fire hose screaming, “What have you done to my show???” Okay, okay, that’s a little dramatic. But still, I smile picturing it.
Look, I don’t expect “Supernatural” to be what it was, despite my critical comparisons with old and new seasons. Shows age and take different directions. However, you really have to look seriously at your show when the creative team starts phoning it in and producing work this bad. It’s tough to swallow when it used to be so good. There is an entire second half of the season (plus a few more) for them to salvage this mess, but this show has clearly lost its way as a cutting edge sci-fi drama. Or a basic sci-fi drama. After this episode, it seems sci-fi doesn’t need to be part of it at all.
I’m giving “The Things We Left Behind” a D-. The only thing that saves it from being an F is the once again solid and brilliant direction of Guy Bee. At least there’s still excellence behind the camera. How about next time giving Guy a good script to work with Mr. Dabb?
Comments
As Nightsky wrote on her most recent comment post to her article, the younger fan following see Sam and Dean as old (Fan Fiction even stated it outright!). But, as an "old"person myself, that means experience and a wealth of knowledge related to that so why not capitalize on it? Want to cater to a younger demographic? Well, then incorporate some younger hunters, male and female, that Sam and Dean can mentor. Dean is a great hunter because he has tons of experience. He can see patterns, anticipate, think on his feet without panicking, plan his course of action and yet have a Plan B. Sam has always had the desire to learn more, see past the initial encounter to see what is really going on. These traits can be explored and celebrated. They're both so smart, well-trained and capable. I hate it when they look stupid!! Want to keep the focus on the brothers? Have them struggle with keeping their humanity in light of this never-ending battle of good vs. evil. Recognize that they are older and that they have injuries, nightmares, PTSD, that they get defeated and demoralized, that they can't save everyone, that the years have been grinding on them. It can remain a human story amidst a supernatural environment. The possibilities of this being a great show are still there. It still has the great acting, sets, directors, guest stars, the amazing gang in Vancouver. But, they're being wasted, in my opinion. It's a shame. And, it's frustrating.
My apologies if I've stolen anyone's joy.
THEY ARE NOT OLD! They're just not the adorably cute 20-somethings they were when they started this show. Now they're sexy 30-somethings.. .on a network full of cute teen stars. It's why I watch nothing else on the CW. For anyone that does: do audiences/other characters think the Green Arrow is old? I tolerate "The Originals" because it's not a cast full of teeny-boppers, there are a few running around outside of school, but they're not leading characters (plus who doesn't think New Orleans is cool?). That being said I seem to be one of the youngest fans on WFB, but I'm only a few years younger than Jared. It kinda made me sick to hear the two of them get called "old" by my former students, but hey what do the 12-14 and 18-22 crowds know about life anyway? ;) They've still got good taste for watching this show. Honestly, Tuesday night at my house is a riot--half of UF's art department are fans!
I guess the writers are shafting Sam because it's harder to write him. How do write for a character that is a thinker without always using the same tricks? I don't know. The closest I've come to script-writing is five minutes newscasts and radio jingles. The flip side to that is it's probably easier to write Dean as he's vocal, physical and in charge. Plus, Jensen brings the magic no matter how far Dean gets pushed. That's a gift that shouldn't be wasted.
The biggest disappointment for me is Sera lead and Jeremy is leading teams that are trying to figure out how the Winchesters should act as brothers now that they've grown up and it feels "off." :( Or am I crazy? Just once I'd like to hear them do another "Bitch." "Jerk." It's the "Supernatural" equivalent of "As you wish." from "The Princess Bride."
Peace and love.
Is there any way at all for this feedback to reach the eyes and ears of TPTB? Some of the writers/produce rs say they love to engage with fans, try to figure out what they want... is it possible for them to somehow read this review? Would it be inappropriate, for instance, to tweet a link of this article to some of them? I mean, if we're looking for things to improve, wouldn't making sure that the producers receive direct feedback be the best way?
So this one which was billed as a game changer, changed nothing. But my current measure of how good the episode is is when and how often I look at my clock. Too many times. I have many thoughts about why that is, but I am determined not to be too negative this year and just enjoy it. My only other comment is that I am hearing a lot about J2 wanting more time off, yet for the third year now they've been given 23 episodes. Why not think outside the box and do 13 a year, or 10 90minute shows? Another case of network stuck in a rut syndrome.
It seems that the studio etc. can earn more money by making more episodes. International deals etc. The network needs to fill airtime.
Also, with my lack of faith in this show's current state, less episodes means they'll have to cull some of the writing stuff, and you just know they'll keep the wrong ones.
But maybe a shorter season would be a possibility if one or both of the Js got a movie career but they still wanted to keep the show alive.
Thank you, BookLady, for saving me the time to have to write a whole post. I couldn't have said it better. :) You made every point I wanted to make.
To save some time, I'll summarize the second half of S10 -
Castiel gets his remaining angel grace back from Claire and saves heaven.
Metatron comes back and does his best impression of annoying man.
Rowena causes all sorts of problems for Crowley, threatening his position as King of Hell.
Dean, fueled by the MoC, runs around killing more people who deserve to die and man-angsts about it.
Charlie comes back from Oz, infected by something evil - Dean saves the day.
Sam and Dean run in to a pack of werewolves that up and decide that, besides eating human hearts, they can now shapeshift
.Sam - in episode 11, Dean knocks out Sam "for his own good". Sam wakes up in episode 20 and makes Dean a sandwich using the panini press Dean so thoughtfully got him for Christmas.
Season finale - Sam goes out on a beer run while Castiel sacrifices himself to save Dean from the MoC.
The time I put in to typing this up is about the same amount of time they took to plot out S10.
As another person deciding to take a break from Supernatural -
I would say it is MORE childish to continue to watch a show you're not enjoying - if your reason for watching is simply that you're "a fan" and you're "there to the end". Television is entertainment. A show is not a person to whom you owe undying gratitude and devotion. If it doesn't serve it's purpose - to entertain - then you turn it off.
TPTB get the message that things need to change only when viewers stop tuning in. It's not helpful to continue to watch what is not entertaining. That's keeping a show on the air for the wrong reasons, imho.
Do I think it'll make any difference to them if I, personally, watch every episode or not? No. Not a bit. The only one impacted by that is me. It is a more mature decision for ME to turn the television off if I am not enjoying it, imho.
I love Sam and Dean (and Jared and Jensen) - SO - if the show were to somehow begin to entertain me again, I would watch again.
Thanks for the review, Alice. I'm in total agreement, unfortunately.
So yes, I agree with E and suggest we refrain from assuming things about anyone's life and move on to the show and the episode I'm question.
The demon blood storyline was too much to handle for a lot of fans. So I doubt that Dean will go on a truly dark journey. I would want the show to explore the character’s psyche. They will probably just stick to safe stuff like Dean killing bad guys in a more violent manner than usual. Of course Sam might get treated badly but fans are very lenient when it comes to that... Since Supernatural has pushed the envelope in the past, this hyping up the mark of Cain storyline or what Sam did to get Dean back is not working.
In addition, I'm not sure if Dean is actually lying to Sam or himself or both about the Mark's influence, considering how Dean is the King of Denial. Either way, the Mark has feed a lot. So, is it sated for a time or hungry for more?
How did this writers team could turn the king of hell to this pathetic loser. Where is the fun and evil demon we knew. Rowena annoys me, I think she is also overplayed. And I didn't get why she is alive. Can witches live this long. Maybe I fell asleep when they explained it.
Dean keeps lying, Sam is still a pretty wallpaper and I care less and less about Castiel.
But during this break, I am going to try to be optimist because two years ago, I was in the same state of mind, thinking, maybe it's time for me to stop watching but couldn't because I love Sam and Dean too much. I hated the first half of season 8 and the mid season finale too and finally loved the second half of season 8. I can only hope the second half of season 10 will be better.
But something really scares me. They got good ratings for this crap, will the writers think that it's because the fans want this bullshit ?
ZERO reason to change,
MONEY talks BS walks.
Cliff: Look, I know it sounds crazy. Guy comes up to me at a bar, invites me to play. Gives me twenty-five of these weirdo poker chips, right? Chants some mumbo jumbo over them, says now they're twenty-five years. I'm laughing, but then I come out up. And look at me.
Patrick: You boys want chips? Take 'em. They're just chips, Einsteins. It's showmanship. This may come as a shock, but the magic does not lie in a pile of crappy plywood or in any phony abracadabra. It's in the nine-hundred-ye ar-old witch. You boys want years? Score 'em the old-fashioned way. Texas hold 'em.
It seems that when people agreed that instead of money, they’ll play for years, it gave the witch the power to use the years that people lost to his own gain. Rowena has likely found another underhanded way to cheat death. Maybe that’s one of the reasons why she was curious to know how Crowley had died.
And now it reminds me there was also the couple of witches in "shut up Dr Phil".
This has been the season of "The Return of Nobody Cares." Besides the lack of a story for the Winchesters and the lack of any relevance to the stories the forgettable characters have gotten, I am up to my eyeballs with teenagers, women, women, and more women (because "we are not misogamists, see"), and the "emotional personal journey."
The MoC story is a poached demon blood Sam story, but it still has wonderful potential; potential to even carry a story through next season, but my expectation for this happening even this season is just not there. I watch now only to take advantage of being able to see JA perform, but I am seriously thinking about not watching live anymore. I think I will record the show so that I can fast forward through all the scenes that don't have Sam and/or Dean in them. It the season's pattern holds, that should be between 10-14 minutes a week of viewing.
And I will just mention that the references to Dean being old ticks me off royally. Both JA and Jared are in the prime of their lives, and they should be in the prime of their hunting lives.
And I agree with you, the J's for me are the show, too. The Winchester's are the reason I watch. I don't really care at all about the other characters that have been getting too much attention the last few seasons. I enjoy the occasional guest star - but I don't give a fig about Heaven, or Hell, or Angels, or Demons. I haven't cared about those things since season 6. So...it's rough to watch sometimes. (oh, but I did like the Clue episode - but I am also a giant fan of that 80s movie so....). I hope the show comes back with a vengeance after the break, and it's all mytharc all the time til the end (a hopeless wish, I know...sigh). It's just so disheartening to see such a generic and dull (and soooo OOC) episode lead us into the hiatus. So...I'm venting. :)
it's clear to me that Cole and Claire were meant to show the greyness of hunting. For both, Team Free Will was the bad guy, the monster in their stories. In this episode we see humans far worse than D!Dean or H!Crowley. I hope it's a set-up for Dean becoming the dark hero he always was, Crowley leaving hell behind, Cas leaving heaven, and Sam learning who he is now that he isn't tainted by supernatural. It's a great set-up. I love that the brothers roles are flipped. I really love the idea of TFW 2.0.
Now can we clone Carver. It's obvious he rewrote Reichenbach. The vision is superb. I don't understand why we are seeing this silly , pedestrian stuff.
Speaking of season 3/4, why haven't they touched on Dean’s personal arc from then during his "cured" phase. Dean saying he was embarrassed by his demon sojourn with Crowley is the most bizarre line of dialogue. I was convinced he wasn't really cured in the sense that the demon was 100÷ cleansed. Dean's been off and acting like Dean for episodes culminating in the manic display of "human" excess in this episode. Still... it's just so lame and so bad I almost hope the bad writing is intention due to passive -aggressive issues behind the scenes.
Sigh. At least I can look forward to Dean punching a possessed? Charlie and gleefully smarmy Metatron.
Also, maybe it's just me, but I really don't like the term Team Free Will applied to Sam, Dean and Cas. We can argue all we want about the merits of Dean tricking Sam into being possessed, but one thing for sure is that he took Sam's free will away, and Cas absolved him by saying he was just too trusting or something. (of course Cas didn't want to be saved by Metatron because, you know, free will and all). Sorry. It's a sore point with me. There's no such thing as free will for Sam, because Dean just HAS to save him no matter what. (Sorry, I've had a bit of wine so I whine…)
Its pretty irritating that the writers seem to be trying so hard to "mitigate" Dean's actions by having him kill only those people that "deserve it." I wonder what the reaction would have been had Dean gone all Rambo on a day care center or old folks home? Even while Dean was a demon he only killed other demons and Lester who had sold his soul anyway. Actually the implication made by the show was that Dean saved Lester when he killed him because it was a breach on Lester's contract; who knows, Lester probably ended up in heaven because of Dean. And Sam, well Lester's death is "on Sam" as Dean said. So basically the MoC story is turning out to be a copout AND boring to boot. What a great combo.
Are you the murderer?
No I am not.
Well you go free.
9.11 First Born
Dean: And Lucifer ordered you to make more.
Cain: My knights and I, we did horrible things -- for centuries. Bringers of chaos and darkness.
Dean: Then you met Colette.
Cain: She knew who I was... and what I was. She loved me unconditionally . She forgave me. She only asked for one thing.
Crowley: To stop.
Cain: When the knights found out, they took retribution. They took Colette, so I picked the First Blade back up, and it felt so good to have it in my hands again, and I slaughtered the Knights of Hell.
Dean: Not all of them.
Cain: No.
(Flashback)
Cain: No, Colette! Colette, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I will find Abaddon, and I will kill her.
Colette: No, there's been enough killing. Promise me. You're better than all of this.
[Colette dies in his arms as Cain sobs goodbye. Scene then changes back to Cain's house with Cain telling the story.]
Cain: So I buried her, and I walked away.
Cain was able to stop killing even though he was a demon so should Dean.
10.02 Reichenbach
Crowley: Dean! How did it go?
Dean: Fine. Fine. Uh... He's dead, and you're right --I-I feel amazing.
---
Dean: Or what? Hmm? Go ahead. Make a move. See how it ends. I ain't your friggin' bestie, and I ain't taking orders from you. When I need to kill, I'll call. Until then, stay out of my way.
It seems that demon Dean didn’t have enough motivation to stop killing even after Sam came to him.
Cain had been “the best at being the worst” so I think it’d be harder for him to stop than it would have been for Dean who hadn’t been a demon for all that long and he hadn’t killed any civilians.
Quote:I think that demon Dean was more capable of controlling himself than the average demon. Dean’s soul was twisted but his humanity hadn’t been burned away.
10.02 Reichenbach
Crowley: Really? Because I think you don't know what you want. Tell me, Dean -- what are you? A demon? If so, why isn't Lester's wife dead? Did you feel sorry for her? So maybe you're human. Except you have those pretty black peepers and you're working alongside me. Why don't you do us all a great big favor and PICK A BLOODY SIDE?!
Del: And you know the worst part? I wasn't even allowed to kill anyone. I was told to protect them. I mean, how sick is that? Am I not a young, vital demon with basic demon needs and rights?
Demon Dean wasn’t all that eager to kill. Crowley even said to him, "The fact is...you need to kill now. Not want to, not choose to --need to,” and “So, the question is, do you want to spike a civilian or someone who has it coming?”
Quote:I wonder if Sam not having been able to reach Dean will be significant.
Dean: Well, I'm sorry -- truly. But I have to stop Abaddon. So, where is the Blade?
Cain: No.
Dean: Hey! Listen, you son of a bitch. You may be done killing, but I'm not.
---
Cain: The mark can be transferred to someone who's worthy.
Dean: You mean a killer like you?
Cain: Yes.
Dean: Can I use it to kill that bitch?
Cain: Yes. But you have to know with the mark comes a great burden. Some would call it a great cost.
Dean: Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at "kill the bitch".
I think Dean is preoccupied with killing and thinks he is no good. He needs to let go of that.
They did an episode of Dr Who like that - where the doctor got to talk to the Tardis, it could work.
A lot of S7 was muddied up by that conflict, which realistically should not have been anything. Manufactured melodrama, yet again. They attempted to have another go at the theme of monsters good and evil in S8, with Benny and Kate and didn't have a clear understanding of that either, largely since they refused to go into any depth. Sam called Dean a hypocrite about killing Amy and insisting that Benny was different in S8 and Dean agreed that he'd changed his mind on the subject. He'd let Kate go because of what he'd seen in Benny.
Every inconsistency in character, every contradiction by the characters and in the events of the show comes straight from the writers room. Blaming the characters for their on-again-off-ag ain behaviour is ridiculous. Blame the writers who don't care enough to go back (as the fans do all the time) and rewatch the episodes, analytically and carefully to see what the characters have done, what they've gone through and how it would change them.
Maybe Crowley was mad that the contract was broken because he has more control over the soul when he holds the contract.
However, take that despairing magnifying glass and look over the seasons since Season 7 - or 6, from about halfway through. The writing team ran out of a story that both developed the ongoing maturation of the characters and provided them with a solid, bonafide reason to keep fighting the good fight a long time ago, and were left undirected by both showrunners since Kripke left. Many of their episode ideas are fine. In fact, many of those episode ideas are terrific. The Men of Letters society. The Mark of Cain. The tablets of the Word of God. The trials required to close the gates of Heaven and Hell. These are extremely workable, epic arching storylines that could have carried the show for not just a couple of seasons, but literally a dozen without strain - in the hands of writers who actually knew how to write. Or who even cared about the story and characters they were attempting to write. They've written for the show for a while, they *should* know both the characters and the canon of the series. But they don't.
Dabb's perpetual chip-on-the-sho ulder attempts to belittle and demean the characters should have been nipped with the first outing - Yellow Fever. Dean's a bully? And a coward? Really? It's strange that psychologically speaking that doesn't really gel at all with a lifetime spent trying to save people and put himself between monsters and innocents? Oh, he's a secret bully! Um ... no. When you see episodes, like A Very Supernatural Christmas, for instance, it's quickly apparent that Dean could not have been a bully for it was the opposite of his entire upbringing and experiences. So ... fail for Dabb who brings his personal issues to the episodes and hangs them out for all to see. Obviously mentoring Mr Glass in this arena.
A writer takes an idea and crafts it into a coherent, logical event. A writer researches whatever they're working on to ensure that within the bounds of their fictional universe, the reader (or audience) will not be faced with inexplicable behaviour, unbelievable deux a machinas, illogical plot holes, and the endless reworking of existing history because it's peskily not letting them do what they want to do. A *WRITER*, as you and others here point out so succinctly, will come up with millions of ideas of how to justify what they want to do happen, in a way that the audience will understand and accept. A *WRITER* will use the surface story to explore and illuminate and develop the characters so that their personal quests are as exciting and tension-filled as the more obvious plot. A *WRITER* will ensure that each event (chapter, episode) that the characters get through will feed a little more information about the overall plot, the novel or season's journey, giving the reader/audience a constant sense of participation, adding tension with anticipation and keeping the contract between reader/audience and novel/show intact by never reneging on details already known or introducing "just because" moments due to a horrendous dearth of imagination.
Did the writers in S9 realise that in Gadreel's story, the angel who allowed his trusted and beloved brother, Lucifer, into the Garden, lay a parallel to the Winchesters? Why, no. Not one appeared to notice that. Did the writers use the trials to purify Sam's blood of the demon taint, leaving him finally human and himself again? No ... no, they managed to miss that opportunity too. Did the writers notice that in one episode, they had Dean 'nesting' hopefully at the beginning and bluntly stated that he was suicidal and unable to find hope at the end, apparently without noticing the large contradiction there.
One of the reviewers here rightly points out that it is experience and knowledge and skill that marks someone as having lived a life. It is unfortunate that not one "writer" in the writers' room appears to have any of those things, certainly not in a quantity or of a quality where self-inserting themselves into the characters, without consideration for story or character, is regarded as a heinous crime that no ***WRITER*** would ever freaking well do.
Alice, I know you've been trying to see the best in the show for awhile now. Perhaps that's a good thing, certainly I see many fans claiming that the episodes of the last few seasons are "wonderful" and "heartwarming" and so on. But sooner or later, someone has to notice that the Emporer's not wearing any clothes. It's irresponsible to not complain when a group of writers treat the audience as if they're five year olds - deliberately or not, perhaps these writers have the mental capacity of five year olds with limited attention spans, inability to write naturalistic dialogue, unwillingness to put any attempt at research into their "work" or to even comprehend what the original premise and the core natures of the characters actually was - and write drivel whilst congratulating themselves on how brilliant they are. Carver's constant need for interviews to "explain" what the episodes are "supposed to mean" must have struck more than just me as bizarre? Did anyone need the episodes of the first 3 seasons "explained" to them? Did Kripke or any of those writers, even the less-skilled ones, ever write an episode that needed several flashbacks in it? Or that failed to develop the bond between the brothers, revealing them to the audience gradually, consistently and steadily throughout the course of the seasons? Go back, fans, watch S1-3 again. Watch it carefully, not for the eye-candy. Watch for story and characterisatio n and dialogue and action. Watch Dean's loyalty to his father and Sam's slow understanding that perhaps he had missed a few things about his dad and with maturity is coming to realise that. Watch the way the ovearching mythology was gradually revealed, more information divulged with each case they took. Watch the secondary characters, rounded and full, not sketched in caricatures, but people who had lived lives of their own. Watch how important the lore of the supernatural was then - patterns and rules and solutions, but they had to be researched, had to be found. Then compare those episodes with what's been thrown (dare one say regurgitated!) onto the screens for the last 4 years.
Like you, I was completely thrilled by the show when it aired. No one in television has ever married so perfectly the realm of the supernatural, a dark fantasy, with a gripping family drama. The potential was infinite. A hunter's community, always in the shadows, committed to each other but giving up the chance for a life of normality to save people from the things that hunt in the darkness - I mean, wow!
I will never understand the decision to kill off the hunters and leave the Winchesters struggling mostly on their own. It is not a matter of testing the brothers' mettle or skills. No secondary character was needed in every episode, but when things got very bad, a place to rest, to reflect on what was happening to them, psychologically speaking, was an essential. Every decision production-wise since then has gone from bad to worse, despite the enormity of the possible vistas opening up with each new mytharc. Heaven manipulating the bloodlines of humanity to create keys and vessels? Angels in league with Hell? What part of these epics - yes, grandiose but oh, so exciting - did they choose to continue with? None. The show introduced God as a character and then backed off so quickly it was like watching a cat soaked by a hose.
As another commentor hear pointed out, there are a huge amount of threads left dangling in this series. Throwaway comments. Plots begun but then dropped. Would any *writer* leave those unresolved? No. No, a writer's business is finding those tantalising trails and following them, making them fit into a broader canvas with care and ingenuity as if they were always meant to be rediscovered years later. But the show doesn't have writers. Alas. The show has emotionally and intellectually stymied folks who believe that pop culture references are just as good as meaningful dialogue. That a suitable explanation for a physical impossibilty is "it must run on magic!" like a bad school panto. That the existing canon isn't important and can be thrown out when it doesn't suit. And that's the reason it cannot improve. Either the production team are incredibly ignorant and don't see what they're doing. Or they do see but don't care. Either way, it's a rare thing to see the characters in the episodes now - even if they're in every scene, mostly it's not Dean and Sam. It's just someone else the actors are struggling to play as close to their characters as the poor writing allows.
Quote:Well, Sam didn’t finish the trials. So if the trials were in fact purifying him physically, it’d make sense that a smidgeon of demon blood would still be left.
They could still reveal that Sam was completely purified when he started the third trial (confessed) because he had to use his own blood to cure a demon. Gadreel never mentioned Sam having demon blood.
Sam's failure to look for Dean - not explained, not justified and completely OOC. Sam's demon blood, purified through his own trials of fasting and sleep deprivation and introspection (which might have led to his acceptance of what he'd done and his genuine desire for atonement - let's not forget that Sam thought he would be paying for his choices by taking Lucifer back to the Cage and then was whisked out after a week or so - again never specified) followed by a heartfelt and completely contrite confession - never explained that this was (a) what was needed for his blood to purified and (b) that it actually happened. We're left to assume that Sam's blood is purified else it wouldn't work to 'cure' Crowley. Why not then have a two-minute scene between the brothers to set it straight and give them hope that Sam is now human and has put his demons to rest with the act of penance and contrition? Why on earth leave that in the air - unless Carver determined that he might want to have Sam topple into demon-driven darkness at some point in the future? Unfortunately, it would make a mockery of his blood being purified for Crowley by doing that, but it seems that the writers don't care if their internal logic is shonky.
Then we have the problem of Sam's violent emotional swings through S9. One minute, the bunker is their home and a place from which they can take the fight against the supernatural. The next Sam is telling all and sundry that he has no home and he never will. While each of the writers is responsible for coming up with their own stories, and they obviously don't do a great deal of collaboration with each other, the showrunner surely should be ensuring that each episode story is consistent - plotwise, emotionally for the characters, for the revelations and events - with all the others. So, when a major event happens, it is not completely ignored in the following episode and ongoing events, such as Dean's reactions to the MoC - and Sam's - are delivered incrementally from episode to episode and not slam-dunked into single episodes with a pile of horse-shit exposition to "explain" it.
In 10x8, Dean seemed to be utterly sincere when he told Sam that for the first time, he wasn't being pushed by the Mark. The very next thing we see is him being chewed up by nightmares, presumably fed by the Mark. That's not consistent. Is it so difficult for Carver to instruct the writers to have very small scenes, episode by episode, showing the effects in small ways that Dean is being affected? Or having small scenes of Sam researching on his own, becoming more and more worried by what he's finding out? All such scenes could be shot together, even, and simply added to the episodes to keep continuity for the characters. Wouldn't even scramble a shooting schedule :(
Likewise, after a season of Sam repeatedly telling Dean that he didn't have a family, didn't want a family, thought Dean was weak and afraid to be alone (and hey, Carver wrote "Free to Be You and Me" where Dean was actually happy to be on his own without the worry of looking after his brother, so um ... what happened?), the only thing offered in explanation at the season finale is "I lied"??????? That might've been a suitable throwaway if the behaviour had then been addressed in a following episode, but as a total explanation it's just bullshit. As someone else here points out, LAZY writing. And what has driven Sam - inexplicably - to turn into a ruthless torturer and killer to find his brother? Is that another attempt to create a manufactured conflict between the brothers? Or is it a development in the character?
The idea of exploring the true nature of monsters is a worthy one, but only if there is justification for the behaviour and it is within the character's core nature - a nature that must be shaped by all that's happened to them over the course of the time we've known them. Sam told Dean in S7 that he'd felt like he'd paid his dues and he no longer felt guilty. Obviously he underestimated that a tad because he had plenty to confess and that statement was more or less ignored by the S8 writers. A slipup but not an irredeemable one, it could've been explored a little as Sam underwent the trials - or it could've been used to explain his decision to live his own life instead of looking for Dean. No matter. At the end of S8, he is supposed to have accepted, understood, confessed and asked for forgiveness for what he'd done. It's not explained if his release from the contract brought on the life-threatenin g illness. It's further not explained why, when in a coma and debating with himself over living or dying, he seems to be thinking rather highly of himself, considering he's just gone through the confession part and despite his supposed knowledge of Dean, he finds it outrageous that Dean would take any means at all to save him.
C'mon, guys, Dean sold his soul to save Sam. He's not afraid of being alone. He's afraid of failing the one purpose, the one job he sees himself having - protecting his brother. All of which is pretty damned unmistakable if anyone watched the first three seasons. So why was Sam swinging between being furious with Dean and trying to be reconciliatory?
Poor plotting. Poor planning. Poor execution. As each script is developed, I would think the showrunner would check them for consistency between the characters, between the events they describe and the impacts those events have on each character, and for their ability to add more information to the over-arching plot that makes the season meaningful. That just doesn't happen in the show anymore.
Sam - apparently - was driven by a murderous rage while Dean was a demon. It's not explained why. He doesn't even know that Dean is demonic until some unspecified length of time has passed and he sees Dean in the security camera footage. Dean has left him a note asking him to let him go. So far as we're aware, that's the one lead Sam has had to go on. He does know that Dean was dead and is now, apparently alive. Did I miss something else here? I freely admit to not watching carefully once it became apparent that to these writers, a demonised Dean consists of bad karaoke, pool, darts and banging the local waitress. Since that was more or less what Dean could've been doing on any given Saturday night he had off in the last twenty years, I'm not sure what the difference of him being a demon was supposed to be ... perhaps that's Carver way of showing Dean wasn't a monster, even when he was? Who knows? None of it is clear. From what we've been told (ha ha, not shown), the only things he was killing were the demons Crowley was sending to attack him from time to time. Perhaps 'embarrassing' is the correct interpretation for Dean's brief time as a demon. Certainly, he has nothing to feel remorseful for!
Sam, on the other hand, had no motivation to go around slaughtering demons (and their vessels) to find his brother. You would think he'd start by checking whatever networked and online security footage he could access around the country and set a bot looking for news reports, but no, he moved straight to torture and killing. Why? Forget, for a moment, of the direct contradiction of his statement to his brother "Same situation, if you were dead, I wouldn't try to bring you back" ... from a psychological viewpoint, being Sam, the only reason for his over-the-top reactions is fear. Fear of what? Fear of losing his brother? His remaining family? Why didn't that fear drive him when Dean disappeared into Purgatory?
These are questions that now cannot be resolved. The writers have twisted and mangled the character so much that nothing Sam has done, is doing or will do can make any kind of sense. In their efforts to create angst and melodrama instead of drama and resolution, they've managed to turn Sam into a walking contradiction. What's worse is they don't appear to see or understand what they've done and how incredibly difficult it is to unwind the tangle of discrepancies from the character and bring him back to somewhere near the altruistic, ethical and enjoyable character we all met back at the beginning.
And then we have Dean. At the beginning of S6, Dean had grown up. He'd shouldered the responsibility for a family, he was somehow managing his guilt and grief and for a short time, he was a grown man, in his prime, clear in his head on what he was doing. Since then, however, the writers have foregone characterisatio n for laughs. So, despite seeing Dean make a decision to tear up a waitresses' number, he makes comments about how wife-swapping makes for the best wife in the world. A small contradiction but unfortunately a telling one. I'm not sure why any writer would sacrifice character for an attempt at humour, other than ignorance, and I'm completely flabbergasted by the number of times these "writers" sacrifice tension and pace for their attempts at humour, but they appear to believe that the fans prefer light-hearted hunts to serious ones. There have been a few very well-written light-hearted episodes. Not many. Bad Day at Black Rock stands out. So does Tall Tales. When watching those, however, it's obvious that despite the fact that the situation has gone out to left field, the real danger of the cursed object and trickster are still very much present, the tension is not allowed to fade away and Dean and Sam are very much themselves in those episodes, not twisted into someone else to get a laugh. Sam's view of Dean exaggerated by the trickster's magic, is hilarious. It belittles neither character since it is made clear that it is an exaggeration of feelings already there. Understandable feelings for both brothers. In comparison with any one of the more recent attempts at comedic episodes, it's clear that the writers can't think of situational comedy and rely on humiliation humour, making fun of the characters instead of keeping them intact and putting them into situations that are then funny to watch. Pretty much the lowest common denominator form of humour, unfortunately. I digress madly. Dean has been regressed in much of the last 3 seasons to an age less than when we first saw him in S1. He appears to have forgotten about all the life-changing events that have happened to him - enduring the sacrifice of his father for his life; going to Hell, and spending 40 years being tortured and torturing others; understanding finally that Sam is a grown man entitled to his own choices; being a partner and father with a family to protect and provide for; struggling with his choices as he tries to fight monsters, demons, angels et al. I don't know how exactly the writers could fail to see the impacts that kind of life might have on a character, but it's apparent that they have.
Of course, it's just television. Just entertainment. No real reason to try and develop a story that might be more than a thrown-together bunch of scenes and hey, once it's shot and aired, who cares about what was said or done? It's endemic to our society now - news reporter fail to provide what, who, when, where, how and why; best-selling novels are poorly written and barely edited; movies are made on scripts so thin that it's hard to remember the plot once the credits roll ... so why should tv writers be compelled to lift the standards and write quality drama and action?
Quote:It was clear to me that Dean was trying to convince himself of being happier without Sam but he was failing.
Quote:How on earth are you coming up with all that? Besides, torturing demons is nothing new to Sam and Dean.
Quote:No, Sam meant that he would not have tricked Dean into being possessed by some angel.
9.13 The Purge
Sam: I'll give you this much. You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt.
Dean: All right, you want to be honest? If the situation were reversed and I was dying, you'd do the same thing.
Sam: No, Dean. I wouldn't. Same circumstances...I wouldn't.
Quote:Which episodes are you referring to exactly?
Quote:Well we have a difference in interpretation there. When watching that episode, watching the actor's performance especially, Dean's response appears heartfelt to me.
Quote::) From watching the episodes, I'm afraid. Sam's demeanour with the demon we see him kill and the conversation between Sam and Dean in the car about what Sam has done. The fact that he clammed up tight about it. The fact that Dean didn't press him on it. It doesn't matter, really, does it? This show is one where a variety of opinions on the events and what is said and done by the characters is inevitable because of much of the writing leaves the audience free to speculate in any direction they choose. From a perspective of watching people, those are the impressions I've received about Sam's actions while Dean was a demon. The disclaimer about it being nothing to either brother to be torturing demons is neither here nor there. Again, the writing in the show shifted after S4 on the matter of demons and their possession of innocent vessels. In S2, Bobby was very clear about it, then it just kind of got forgotten. Or became less important. Who knows?
Quote:Ah. Very pedantic. "Same circumstances." meaning the exact, precise same circumstances, not the more open interpretation of "you are dying - or dead" that could also constitute the same circumstances in a broader sense. Quibbling over semantics isn't worth it.
Quote:Exile on Main Street, Two and a Half Men, The Third Man, Weekend at Bobby's ... another point of differing interpretations ?
Quote:Sam’s demeanor was due to not having been able to stop the deal being made. Sam didn’t kill the demon, it escaped.
I think you took quite a leap by claiming that Sam moved straight to torture and killing. What gave you the impression that Sam hadn’t behaved like a hunter?
Quote:I think the important part is “You are certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt.” Sam didn’t say that he would not try to save Dean.
Quote:
What deal? Lester's deal? What precisely does the episode give in factual information about what Sam did or didn't do from the moment he discovered Dean's body missing to the opening of the first episode of S10? Not what might've happened but what was actually shown? Sam torturing a crossroads demon we later find out was the one he manipulated Lester into meeting and selling his soul to. That, I think, is about it. You might be right, Sam might've let the demon go, since Lester's deal was known to Crowley, but that's still conjecture. Dean's comment on who was the real monster here, as ham-handed as that was, suggested that Sam had done more than manipulating a human into selling his soul and torturing a demon. But, like the karaoke-vision of Demon!Dean, maybe that's enough to be seen as a monster to the writers. I have to say though, I managed to miss the demon's escape. Too many flashbacks to keep track of, no doubt.
Quote:Heh. That one line made me see pure red when it was aired, since I'm pretty sure that going to Hell for 40 years might've smarted a touch. But I'm not even going to get into that here. Sam didn't unequivocally state, with his hand on a Bible, that he would never try to save Dean. That's true. The implication from what he did say - same circumstances, I wouldn't - is that he wouldn't try anything to save his brother. Looked at in the context of the past few seasons, the implication is strengthened by the fact that Sam didn't look for Dean in Purgatory. From Dean's POV, and the audience's, the statement suggests that Sam would not try to save his brother if the situation arose.
Again, this is not a character argument. If the writer had something in mind for using these words, in this situation, other than the obvious goal of creating conflict between the brothers, it might have been more understandable. Unfortunately, like the scene where Dean tells Sam he's too tainted to work with anyone else and then promptly reneges on that statement in the next episode, most of the writing seems to be about soap-opera style impact! rather than story-telling or characterisatio n. Sam was angry with Dean and had every right to be angry. He'd been possessed twice before - by Meg and by Lucifer - and I'm 1000% sure he never wanted to go near that experience again. To find that his brother had made a decision to save him that way would've been a terrible conflict - so why didn't the writers write it that way? Why was the character not given a chance to tell Dean that? To address the actual problem? Sam's not a 10 year old, he's an articulate adult who was more than capable of bringing up problems in an adult way, prior to the last few seasons. He managed to convince Dean to let him do what he had to do in taking Lucifer into the cage, a situation fraught for both of them but which both dealt with in a reasonable way. Having him react in a purely emotional way, with accusations designed to hurt, and statements that are not clear is not the behaviour of an adult. It wasn't the way Sam would've handled it - not the way he handled difficult situations previously. There have been at least two occasions when Dean tried to keep something a secret and Sam found out where he managed his reactions differently, despite being younger and despite both occasions being more future-oriented dangers than already happened.
I guess I'm wasting breath here. My point, overall and specifically, has been that the writers are failing the characters. They are not looking back and seeing how those characters handled things in earlier seasons and then building on that. They're running amok with their own ideas of who the characters are, writing scenes just for shock value and failing to take into account that every time they write something OOC from a character and it's aired, it becomes a canon component of that character. The result has been ... chaotic ... to say the least. Sam, as I've seen him on the show, would've looked for a way to get Dean out of Purgatory. He might've failed and turned to a normal life after that, in the midst of knowing that he couldn't save Dean, that would've been in-character, so far as I'm concerned. But not looking at all was not in-character. Sam would've been furious at being tricked into being possessed by an angel, even to be saved, but he would've expressed himself to Dean - clearly and had it out with him until they reached some kind of resolution, not just sulked and thrown out things in the way it was shown. In the early seasons, there was a lot of Sam telling his brother about things that were bothering him. And Dean would listen. And apologise, try and make it right. That was one of the things that made the brothers so much closer. They have gone through a lot that has made it harder for them to talk to each other, but a part of character growth is the struggle to find their way back to that relationship, not to keep detonating things between them.
Maybe a lot of fans don't mind the retrofitting and rationalising of what the writers are doing to both characters and show. Maybe I'm being ridiculously fussy to complain about it or even voice my opinion about it. That could well be.
Quote:I too have wondered the same.Quote:I have observed in real life people who have adult mentality are not always 100% of the time adult like.Quote:The show has told us that Sam did not know ...would I have liked them showing rather than telling Sam's initial responce ..well ya..but they normally tell about Sam and show about Dean..so I will go with that.Quote:for me it was.I do not know whether you visited the site in its earlier days..but we Sam fans were blamed for thing Sam as a saint ... I never did...Sam broke after Dean died (not went to purgatory..died)..I can get behind that.Quote:I agree.Quote:This I do not remember..maybe it was pre season 5.
Quote:You really think Dean was happy at that point in his life??
Quote:Sam meant if Dean was dying, Sam would not do something that would actually end up hurting Dean more than Sam. If you try to save someone but the person you “save” has to pay the price, it’s not right.
Quote:Those aren’t comparable situations at all. Sam had been ready to die but he said yes to Dean. Sam saw his hands killing Kevin. He couldn’t see the upside of being alive. I don’t understand how someone could expect him to be “reasonable” instead of “emotional”.
Quote:Are you referring to Sam finding out what Dad told Dean before his death?
Again, there is a difference between Dean trying to keep “more future-oriented dangers” as a secret and Dean making a choice for Sam despite thinking Sam would rather die.
Quote:What I really think is that the weight was lifted from Dean's shoulders by the separation, and yes, for Dean that was a good feeling. He was able to relax, to not have to worry about anyone but himself. The actor showed a mixture of relief, disbelief and lightness in the scenes with Cas that supported that supposition quite well. Furthermore, during the course of the episode, I saw no reason to doubt the character's description of how he felt. His behaviour was consistent with his words.
Quote:In your opinion. You do realise that you cannot change my opinion or interpretations of the scenes, simply through stating your own? What you consider "Sam meant" is not a factual component of the scene. It is purely the way you took what the characters (and writer) meant by the wording. My interpretation and opinion of the writing and characterisation are different. They are not "right" and I would make no statement ever to indicate that they are "right". They are the way I saw the scene and that's all.
Quote:Again, in your opinion the situations aren't comparable. When looking at how people handle epiphanies, trauma and other life-changing experiences, it is not the specifics of each, individual situation that counts as much as how the person deals with emotional upheaval and all the stressors and unknown factors that come along with those events.
Sam has, in my opinion only, had to deal with a great many extremely stressful events in his life. Up until the end of S3 specifically and on into S4-5, he dealt with them fairly consistently. After S5, it became less and less consistent and in S9 it was nothing like what seemed to be his core character from the beginning. Now, there are a lot of variables that can be taken into account, specific to the situation of being possessed, but I'm afraid I disagree that the emotional stressors of the various situations weren't the same for him - he killed Cindy McLellan in S4 because he needed the demon blood - all of it - to kill Lilith. "Seeing his hands killing Kevin" was not going to be the brain-shocking trauma that some fans and the writers thought, had they remembered his earlier actions. Do you believe that he felt more guilt for his body being possessed and killing Kevin than he did for killing an innocent victim of possession with his own hands, under his own control, in cold blood?
My opinions of Sam's behaviour comes from watching the entire series, quite a few times now. But it's not any more factual than your opinions are. Opinions, by their very nature, are impressions of what has happened. Not what truly happened.
Quote:That's one of the occasions. The other is when Dean made the deal for Sam's life. Both experiences were extremely traumatic for Sam. The first brought into focus what he'd feared for some time - that he was different, that he was tainted, that he would turn into something that wasn't human. The second came with the realisation that Dean was going to leave him in the middle of a war against Lilith and Hell, leave him without his last family member, leave him to fight alone. These are not situations that raise emotional responses any different to any other life-threatening/changing event. Why do you think Sam felt so strongly about Dean's decision to save him at any cost? Do you think Sam was angry that Dean had taken away his choices?
Quote:I'm afraid I must disagree here as well. On an emotional reaction level, there isn't. Dean made choices that affected Sam - all three choices affected every aspect of Sam's life and his future. The same emotional reaction applies to all three. You made a choice for me that I didn't agree to. That's the surface thought. What underlies that are the emotions - anger, fear, pain, doubt, devastation etc. And the emotions were the same, varying in degrees of intensity, but not by that much.
I can no more change your opinions of how you've seen the seasons than you can change mine, and I wouldn't want to. We view other people's behaviour through the lenses of our own experiences, what we've seen, what we've felt, what has made an impact on us. For some people, those who experienced, perhaps, betrayal by a family member personally, their view of the scenes will be very, very different to someone who has never been betrayed by a loved one. It's inevitable that what we observe changes us and our view of the world, to a greater or lesser extent. I can attempt to explain what I feel and think about a scene but it would be futile of me to try to change someone else's view of that scene, their opinion of what they've seen, felt, believed is as valid as mine, neither right nor wrong, but their own.
I'm not sure if I've actually stated it somewhere in this comments section, but my beef is really that the writers do not take the time and effort to make bloody sure that they know the characters. Relatively speaking it would take little time and perhaps a medium amount of effort to sit down, watch the series, season after season, and study the characters. Analyse what they do and why. Focus on the horrific events that have shaped their lives and think about how those events have affected them. It trivialises the story - the whole story as shown over the years from S1 - when those events are ignored or brushed aside as being unimportant. They were incredibly important - still are important. Think of an event that has changed you, for good or for bad. It's echoes continue on, even when the event is long over and some accommodation or closure has been reached. Those events are in us, forever. Writers take that into account. Many ff authors do as well to ensure authenticity for their stories which are free. These "writers" haven't and don't appear to be interested in the characters or their stories at all.
Quote: 9.01 I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here
Sam: I need to know one thing.
Death: Yes.
Sam: If I go with you... can you promise that this time it will be final? That if I'm dead, I stay dead. Nobody can reverse it, nobody can deal it away... and nobody else can get hurt because of me.
Death: I can promise that.
9.13 The Purge
Sam: I mean, Kevin's dead, Crowley's in the wind. We're no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?
In season four, Sam was trying to stop the apocalypse. In season nine, Sam had been ready and willing to die but Sam living seemed to come at a cost to others as well.
Quote: 9.11 First Born
Castiel: Sam, the trials. You chose not to go through with them for a reason, didn't you? You chose to live rather than to sacrifice yourself. You and Dean... You chose each other.
Sam: Yeah, I did. We did. And then... Dean made a choice for me.
Anyway, your tone is quite lecturing so I’m not sure it’d be sensible to continue this discussion. The reason I addressed some of your points is that you seemed to base your issues with the writing on how Sam (and Dean) were characterized because the show had deviated from your own interpretations of the characters.
Quote:Absolutely! This quote taps into something that I have been having a major problem with in the Carver years. He gives interviews and lays out in excruciating detail his plans for the season and then do we see that on screen? No, we don't. Case in point; Carver's claims that they would be exploring what it means to be a "true monster." He claimed that Sam's motivation to save his brother (because of his non-actions in season 8 supposedly, actions that were also largely unexplained despite Carver's claims to the contrary) would send him down a "dark path" and that this would be explored in a "big way." Well… I am not sure what Carver means by 'explored', but a single sentence where Dean admonishes Sam about Lester selling his soul is hardly an exploration and nor was it done in a "big way," hell, it was barely a passing mention in a single episode and has never been brought up again. He further claimed that the MoC was going to be a big consideration for the boys as the season progresses. How does he do this? By leaving key events off screen and in a mid-season finale no less. In what world of Television writing did it seem like a good idea to NOT SHOW US a major development with the main arc of the season? I suspect that TPTB thought it would build tension, when in fact it's only built frustration from lack of attention. This was their idea of a cliffhanger? Ugh, it was an eye roller. This seems to be the trend of late; Carver explains what his plans for the season are in interviews and then we never see any of it on screen. If Carver stopped giving interviews no one would have any idea WHAT was going on in this show.
Carver has ideas. The writers have ideas. Not one of them has the understanding of how to translate those ideas into a plot that outlines the overall idea and then digs deep through the action, through dialogue and reaction and provides resolution, partial or full. They're not writers. They leave out things that are vitally needed. They waffle on in great, boring monologues of exposition to cover the fact that they've just come up with this idea and it has no bearing on anything else that's come before. They mistake sentiment for heart, a cool moment for a meaningful one. They appear to have no knowledge of other people's lives so every secondary character, even those they've developed themselves, is no more than a rough sketch, a cardboard placemarker in the story, with no background or depth to make them real and believable. I was watching Wendigo the other day, and the scene were Dean and Sam go to interview the old man who'd been a boy when he survived the attack on his parents was riveting. Not only for the chillingly well-written account of that account, but for the actor chosen, for the delivery of those lines, a wealth suggested in a lifetime of wondering what had really happened that night and why he'd survived when his parents were taken. I can't recall a single moment in the last 3 - no, make it 4 - seasons where a scene interviewing a witness was that well done - or where I could even remember the secondary characters.
It would seem that keeping key events off screen and then just referring to them in poor dialogue is the way most of these writers prefer to write their stories. Perhaps it saves money somewhere and they're told to do it. I don't know. There have been precious few conversations between the brothers and that is something that seems to be arising from a lack of knowledge of how the characters would conduct such conversations. In the early seasons, it was an established point of touching base, seeing where each character was and how they were dealing with what was happening, and where they thought they were in relation to finding more out about the big picture. The car, of course, is tailor-made for such moments of conversations, parked or while driving the long distance hauls. I have no idea why it's used so scarcely now. It feels as if the writers are subconsciously attempting to have a permanent wall of suspicion and wariness between the brothers but I can't imagine why - the show is about them, it's imperative that we know what they're feeling and thinking.
So far as I can tell, not once since S6 has a showrunner's outline of what they want to do ever managed to manifest in what actually happening in the season. They spout a lot of high falutin' buzz-words about perspective and psychological impacts and exploration of the truths of our world ... blah blah blah. But they don't know how to craft the stories to truly do those things in a way that is both meaningful and incorporates an entertaining and illuminating story. Twenty years ago, any editor would have told them to go back to their day jobs on seeing the sort of utter tripe they're passing off. The world turned and now they're well paid for it and no one pipes up to say 'hey! you guys can't write!'.
If Carver stopped giving interviews no one would have idea WHAT was going on in this show ... rotflmao ... you speak the complete truth! And how sad is that?
As for this episode it was remarkably. slow, more like bait or harbinger of things to come, and I hope it delivers. The conversation "tell Cas that story" was contrived and I can personally think of 10 better ways to deliver the same (limited) punch. Still, for me, I watched not expecting a big cliff-hanger and I know from previous interviews and sneak peeks that they are often a deceptive way to get viewers. In that respect I don't trust them at all and try not to read spoilers or interviews. Carver interviews are the worst since he says stuff like "they were in a pretty good place at the end of season 9" so I am not expecting much anyway, which is kinda sad. On the other hand, I can't get into any other show on a consistent basis so (for me) this is still the best show on TV and I will enjoy the acting and design and the little victories in the story as we go along.
What's frustrating is that, like you, I too can see potential in every "story" they've attempted. Bad Boys was a dismal failure for me for the very same reasons it was for you - nothing happened. Nothing was learned. Nothing was changed (other than known, existing history) and the characters weren't served at all. Most of the episodes seem to be filler in this way. They progress to nowhere, for the Winchester story or the individual character's journeys. What was the point of Hannah's sojourn on earth? No angels were convinced to return to Heaven. Nothing moved. Hannah switched from an earth-side mission to a heaven-side one. Could've been covered in two lines of dialogue at any point. Keeping Castiel on screen until they come up with something for him to do is hardly a good outline for a story of a major character.
While I have to admit, it's sometimes a relief to vent this way, I can hear the whining drone in my posts and cringe from them. I must be totally masochistic.
- Dean and his admonishment to have Cas kill him. Haven't we already established that as soon as Dean dies he becomes a demon again? So isn't it illogical for him to want Cas to "Stab or shill him?" That would only result in Dean becoming "that thing" again quicker. And as for Cas throwing Dean into the sun, I don't believe it works like that, cause if it did, Cain would have done it eons ago. The Mark brings with it everlasting immortality; the only person who can kill someone who has or has had the Mark is someone with the Mark, hence Cain demanding that Dean come back at some point to kill him; he can't die otherwise and neither can Dean. I don't mind Dean asking, what I do mind is that no one is setting him (or us) straight on the details.
-Jimmy is dead. I am sorry, but this just makes NO SENSE whatsoever given what we've known about how angels and vessels work since they were introduced in season 4. Why does Cas get to inhabit a dead and soulless body when no other angel has or can? Why do angels have to ask for permission when they can just take on a dead body instead? What is the point of Jimmy being dead? It's illogical and goes against the established parameters set up by the show with zero explanation as to why it's suddenly different now. This is a growing trend in how Carver works in case you haven't noticed. If he doesn't set parameters, if he doesn't explain anything then he can't be confronted with his failures.
-Not only will the writers not write for Sam, not only does Sam have absolutely nothing to do, not only does Sam continually dismiss himself out of scenes so that Dean can bond with the "guest star of the week," but now we have Dean dismissing Sam from the action as well. To my knowledge it's always been Sam dismissing himself, but now Dean's doing it too.
Quote: Exit Sam stage right.
Then we get that lovely and illogical scene between Cas and Dean that shows Dean's fears and wishes and his desire to keep Sam out of things entirely (because hey, Sam knows nothing about being controlled by a supernatural entity, nothing at all.) It's all Dean POV. This is followed by a painfully short clip of Sam taking about Claire. POV for Sam? No, he gets exposition, oh joy. Not one teeny, tiny bit of POV though, not Sam. It's so pathetically bad these days that it's practically farcical. I can pretty much give you an outline of how all the episodes are going to go it's become so painfully formulaic:
Cold open
Brother scene that's about Dean being "funny" where nothing is said and no one learns anything
Problem presents itself and brothers go investigate
Sam excuses himself from scene
Dean bonds with anyone other than Sam
Dean's issues are referred to; POV and managnst follow
Danger ensues as the brothers walk into a trap (because the brothers are morons and don't know anything)
Sam gets knocked out or tied up or both
Monster gets to monologue assuring that we know more about them then we've learned about Sam in three years
Saved by guest star of the week (because the brothers are morons and don't know anything about hunting)
Brother scene where nothing is said and no one learns anything.
Its been maddening these past few years to watch Sam as a character dwindle away to nothing. He's inert. Yes he's worried about Dean, we can see that, but what has he DONE? Nothing. The conversation Dean had with Cas should have been a conversation between Dean and SAM. Sam should have been the one to say to Dean "no you're not" to Dean's response that he was "fine." That's the role of the brother on this show, especially now that they are supposedly "walking in each other's shoes." Well, we certainly have Dean walking in Sam's shoes, although he doesn't seem to notice, nor is he learning anything from it nor has that fact been mentioned by anyone. But is Sam walking in Dean's shoes? Really walking in his shoes? No, because Dean did more than stand around silently and worry. He was pro-active, he called Sam out on his bullshit, he tried to find solutions, he fought Sam and fought FOR Sam, he believed him and offered support. Is Sam doing any of that? NO, because he's inert, silent. As Percy's likes to say… he's a lamp… in the background and used to illuminate everyone else.
So these are my further or should I say additional complaints to the mid season finale. It was simply awful and failed on just about every level. MBFWB is still my number 1 worst because there's nothing like insensitivity and possible racist and sexist overtones to turn me right off, but this episode is now down at the bottom of my list with Taxi Driver and Mannequin 3: The Reckoning.
Now, a lot of that paragraph above is pure speculation on my part, based on what I saw in the scene. There was no reference to Dean being in Hell, Crowley didn't suggest it (so far as I saw) but he certainly wasn't "released" to go anywhere else.
Why, on returning Dean's soul to his body, Dean should've become a demon (without the centuries of torture blah blah) was also not explained. Was it an effect of the Mark? Cain suggested that when he killed Abel, he became a soldier, a Knight of Hell. No further explanation is given - did he die? Was he even a demon? He trained the other Knights of Hell, who were far stronger than regular, human-soul-twisted demons - what was the difference? Why does it have to be the First Blade and not an angel sword, which manages to kill angels, demons of all ranks (except, apparently Knights) and even reapers? The parameters of the Mark, of Cain, and now of Dean, are all unknowns. The writers simply state that Dean became a demon, not on dying, but on his soul being ... what? revitalised in his body due to the combination of the Mark and the blade together? Hard to define that one too.
It would appear that the writers are not "straight on the details" so very difficult for them to set the character or audience straight on the details. Very little detail there.
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This was one point I didn't find offensively lacking in detail or trashing existing canon. Raphael disintegrated Cas - and Jimmy Novak - in S4. Lucifer disintegrated him again in S5. The explanation given - that a human soul cannot maintain integrity with a disintegrated body was okay for me, and Cas' "resurrection" (not actually a resurrection, but just a reintegration) would not have called Jimmy's soul back to the meatsuit. In Haitian voodoo, the mythology of the zombie is similar - it's not a resurrection of the dead person but just the flesh, minus the soul, which makes it more terrifying. From a plausible, logical and biblically mythological view, it does make sense that the soul moved on but the celestial wavelength (angel) was able to retain its memories of the body and reintegrate when the body was reformed.
That Cas was given the appearance of Jimmy Novak after both reintegrations (presumably by God, since he was the only one who could) was probably less to do with a logical and plausible story line than a desire to keep the actor on the show.
That other angels don't simply step into dead bodies, seems to be because once consent is given, and the angel has bonded with the recipient's physical cells, they can then control the body, living or dead but cannot inhabit a dead body without consent (??) - Hael's vessel would certainly have been dead (without self-healing) yet she was animating the dead body until Cas killed her with the angel sword. She couldn't escape from the dead body (which seemed very pertinent to me) either. There hasn't been any other detail on the questions of angel possession (or the mechanics of demon possession for that matter) so again, that's the impression I got, and the "rationalisation" I've made from it. That I had to rationalise it is a continual sore point with me, because the angels have been around for 6 seasons and some kind of framework should have been given in that time. Mind you, the writers also forgot that Cas lived with a woman for six months after the Levis released him (or he was reintegrated yet again), presumably a life that including stirring coffee and having sex, yet they wrote him as if this was the first time he'd been human. Found on a fishing boat, taken to a hospital, suffering from bed bug itches and having to borrow money from Bobby for a bus ride in S5 wasn't remembered either.
I would hazard a guess that the "point" of Jimmy's soul resting safely in Heaven is to close out the possibilities of Cas choosing another vessel. A production requirement, in other words, not a story one.
Quote:LOL ... yes, that's exactly why neither he nor any of the writers on the show set any kind of parameter that they might want to ditch 2 or 5 episodes later. Occasionally, they slip up and then are forced to ditch their own canon anyway. A lot of fans don't seem to care, they just come up with a spectacular rationalisation on their own.
Quote:It certainly is maddening, not to mention horrifically wasteful, considering that the story is about the brothers, and the rest is background. Looking back over the past 4 seasons, it's as if not one writer there knows how to write Sam therefore he's become a prop. I haven't noticed him illuminating anyone, unfortunately, especially when he's forced to bow out of a scene. If pushed, I'd say that the writers and/or Carver prefer to keep a wall between the brothers as much as possible. There's no reason for that, other than wanting to be able to throw in a catastrophic and highly contrived "misunderstandi ng" or secret or whatever to create a massive conflict between them to stir up the divisions of fans on social media and keep the buzz going on the show. So, there are 1 minute meaningless "bonding" scenes instead of conversations, OOC moments of online dating and The Three Stooges instead of discussing their issues and approaching a resolution for them. This seems also to be the reason for Sam's reluctance to go through the greatest repository of supernatural lore and knowledge in the world looking for answers about anything. Instead of allowing the characters to be themselves and coming up with plots or directions that come out of that, they would rather write about secondary characters who do not advance anything and not deal with Dean and Sam and their growing mountain of problems.
An enormous part of the problem is that neither character was ever written as black and white, and yet the writers persist in labelling them and pigeonholing them as if they're cardboard cutouts. Dean hates research. Sam loves research. Not just a lack of subtlety but often opposites. In the earlier seasons, there was a much greater variation in their characters, and solid motivations for all their actions, reactions and behaviour. Now, there's none.
If the writers were as proactive as the fans in digging through the episodes and trying to nut out what is the truth of the behaviour and the story, if they understood their craft, it would still be an incredible show.
The show used to be about the brothers. So far this season, that has not been the case at all. Every episode since Sole Survivor has been about some character-that- nobody gives a rat's tail about, with...what?... two mentions of the Mark.
There is so much depth and background to the two Winchesters, that I find it absolutely absurd that Carver and this bunch of supposedly professional writers can't come up with a story about and for them. What is with this soapish 'family' problems and mommy and daddy issues?
These men are supposed to be professionals, well paid to come up with good exciting, creative scripts., something they don't seem capable of doing.
All the necessary is still present for SPN to be as great as it once was, so therefore I repeat, the blame for its current lameness falls on Carver.
Some complain that the Js want more time off. Fair enough.
All the more reason to make their reduced screen time mean something.
Their story-lines should be taut and exciting with some good brother moments and brotherly baiting thrown in. Everything with S&D has become so heavy, so sad. Before, even in the most dire circumstances there was always a light-hearted moment, now they are as rare as snow in the desert!
Where's big brother Dean?
Is looking out for Sam, which was one of the more endearing aspects of his character, no longer a part of him? And bitchy geeky little bro Sammy. Has that all been taken from him to leave us a man so depressed and unhappy that it saddens one to look at him, never mind the fact that we get to see him less and less!
Poor Supernatural!
As for the Castiel sequences, I fast-forward them. They are repetirive ad boring, not worthy of the spirit of the show.
If the writers need fillers to pad out the episodes, then they should find a more interesting character and sub-plots to submit to the viewers.
He eats tooth-paste but knows how to use a smart phone, he can drive but didn't know cars ran on gas, he has watched humanity for millenia but doesn't know the basics of human life. "Rolls eyes."
Not knowing that ketchup is made with tomatoes is just the last insult to the watchers' intelligence!
I so hope the writing picks up fbecause Sam and Dean deserve to go out on a high note; the Js deserve it and the fans, especially the long-term ones, deserve it too!
The problem is that there's no bad guy on the show. SPN needs evil, otherwise how can you pit good against it!
The characters, including the brothers now run around like headless chickens. The show has no direction, no scope, no final aim to reach. I can't understand why the writers are doing this. What do they hope to achieve? Muh!
I have to say though, I liked Sera's idea for Castiel in season six because that was the only role I felt was left for him if TPTB wanted to keep Collins. The big bad.
Castiel has too much power as an angel to be teamed up with the Winchesters. That would nullify them. Whereas as the bad guy, he had a reason to exist. A good adversary for Sam and Dean.
But things went differently and now we have two characters Crowley and Castiel who are in the grey area of neither completely good nor completely bad. Just useless.
Then do we really know if the Js want more time off? Or was it Carver who decided he wanted an ensemble show?
Either way the lack of quality brother story-lines has made itself felt and it's such a pity because SPN is a unique show and the Js and the fans deserve better.
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The brothers are side characters in the show under Carver. All they do is take a short road trip here and there, but there is no purpose to it whatsoever other than to be onlookers in episode after episode of some previous 30-second character's story -- just 14 minutes of screen-time to say that they are two of four leads in the show. I don't understand it at all either.
Cas as the bad in S6 was a good idea, but like all good ideas in this show, it went no where. Had TPTB or the writers followed through on any one of them, there would be no fan complaints today. Sadly, I don't see it getting any better, because I don't think (1) the writers want to work that hard and (2) I don't think they are or care to be 'professional' writers. They have made way too many amateur mistakes to make me believe they care about the show, the two Winchester characters, or their craft in general. I have seen no improvement on their behalf in the 4 and 5 years every one of these writers (save Beren) has been with the show. I do agree with you that Cas should never be permanently teamed up with the Winchesters. IMO, he should have went back to Heaven at the end of S5, but now is good for only 4 or 5 episodes a season...in some way supporting the Winchesters and not carrying on his own side story.
I loved Crowley when he was the charming bad guy and Dean was his foiler. Those two worked really well together. At this point, though, Crowley has won every single time against the Winchesters and it's time they ganked him. I also think it is time that the Winchesters were depicted as the top-shelf hunters they are supposed to be, including getting some respect from a broader hunting community. I still have great reservations about turning Dean into a demon or wearing this stupid (and so far very weak story) MoC thing. I like the potential the Mark story has, but there is a niggling little thought in my mind that it seems so wrong to turn Dean into the very thing that destroyed his life at the age of 4 and that he has been hunting ever since...and I don't think the writers can pull anything off that will make it seem right.