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Now I know what they mean by a “Devilish Grin”. That is one, scary just-you-wait look!

To say that Supernatural’s second episode of the season, “Reichenbach” was a stunning and brilliant hour of television would be an understatement. The episode alternated from making us afraid of Dean, the hero who never gives up and will do anything for family, to being in awe of Sam, whose courage, determination and love in the face of unrelenting hate and evil was almost beyond belief. How could Dean have changed so much? How could Dean ever, ever threaten to deal with Sam without mercy? How could Sam stare down Dean, taking steps closer and closer to him, knowing the Mark of Cain made Dean virtually invincible?  

10.02 Sam Faces Dean 1225
A heartbroken, determined Sam

The tension was intense; the writing was witty, fast and tight; and the acting was superb. Jensen’s Demon!Dean was utterly chilling. Jared’s Sam was heartbreaking. It’s as if we lost Dean but found Sam. The story was about breaking one bromance while trying to rescue the other. The story was about the brothers. They were in real trouble, lay-it-all-on-the-line trouble that will get worse before it gets better, versus the contrived squabbling we’ve witnessed for so long.  Mark, Misha and Travis so superbly portrayed their characters’ own dilemmas that there was no break in the emotional tension or the storylines. I am happy for this triumph for Andrew Dabb. Free of the pressure and distraction of writing a series spin-off, his writing talent soared in this episode.

So what did this episode tell us? I’m going to address Castiel’s storyline first, since for now it is the easiest to understand.

Castiel and Heaven

10.02 Cas 0411

A smattering of left over grace will restore Castiel? Won’t a little grace make him a little powerful? Metatron said of the grace that there’s “Not a lot, but enough.” I believe that not all of Castiel’s grace was used in the spell so I accept that Metatron is telling the truth about it being available. We are back to last season’s thread, or question, though. Will Castiel’s grace reverse the spell put on Heaven since it was used to close Heaven? Will it be instrumental in restoring Heaven completely, thus opening the veil and releasing trapped souls, including Kevin’s? Will it open the gates so that the angels don’t have to take the “express elevator” in a playground sandbox to get in and out of heaven?

10.02 Cas Wakes 0787

The focus has been on keeping Castiel from dying. What if that is a misdirection? Reintroducing the subject of Castiel’s grace seems to plant the seed for a whole new plotline. Yes, he might get his grace back and miraculously be healed. He could then be the leader of Heaven. That doesn’t solve the “little grace left” problem, though. Will a little grace be enough to save Castiel? I propose instead that Castiel’s destiny is to save Heaven, just as Sam and Dean’s destiny was to save Earth. Castiel could sacrifice himself, just as Sam and Dean both did. If Castiel sacrifices his grace and himself to restore Heaven, might he not be resurrected again by God, as was done in “Swan Song” when Cas sacrificed himself to save humans from Lucifer and Michael’s apocalypse?  Let Castiel die. Let him go. Good will come of it.

By the way, I very much liked Castiel’s conviction to what’s right versus what’s wrong. He hasn’t forgotten the lessons he’s learned and this time he will passionately be guided by his moral compass. I was so happy to see Castiel express himself:                                                                            
“I’ve made deals born of desperation and they always end in blood, and tears. Always.”

I also love that Castiel told Metatron: “You, shut up!”  Finally!!! Castiel later told him, “You talk too much”. I agree!

10.02 Met Jail 1100

I don’t mind Hannah or the angel storyline, but to me Metatron is the house guest who has overstayed his welcome. I will applaud loudly when he fulfills his ultimate purpose and someone “removes” him from the story (hopefully Castiel)!

Demon Dean….or not?

The “Deanmon” issue has been universally confusing. The Mark, the Blade, Dean is a demon, Dean isn’t yet a demon…

Many of you have expressed your confusion and certainly I have shared your bewilderment.  If the “Threads” series is dedicated to examining clues to the major plotlines, I think we should look at what has been said about the Mark of Cain to try to reconcile the seemingly conflicting information about Demon!Dean. So put your thinking caps on and let’s take a stab at this!

Going back to the finale of season 9, “Do You Believe in Miracles”, Crowley stated that the Mark wanted Dean to kill:
DEAN: "I can't turn it off! Ever since I killed Abaddon, it's -- it's like this whole...other thing. I get this high and I-I-I need to kill. I mean, I really, really need to kill. And if I don't --"
CROWLEY: "you yak your guts out. It's the mark."
DEAN: "Meaning?"
CROWLEY: "It wants you to kill. The more you kill, the better you feel. The less you kill, the less better you feel."
DEAN: "How much less better?"
CROWLEY: "One would imagine the least-best better."
DEAN: "So dead? Well, Cain had the mark. He didn't die."
CROWLEY: "Cain was a demon. Your body's not strong enough to contain the blade's power."
DEAN: "What if I got rid of it?"
CROWLEY: "You want to get rid of it?"

Reinforcing the canon about the Mark, Crowley again stated in this quote from season 10’s premiere “Black”, that it was the Mark that was requiring Dean to kill:
“The Mark needs to be sated, otherwise…”

If it is the Mark that is driving its bearer to kill, then why did Cain separate himself from the Blade when he wanted to rehabilitate himself? The distance seemed to lessen the Blade’s addictive power over Cain. Just to add to the confusion, when Cain threw the Blade into the deepest ocean, he was able to resist the desire to kill without dying himself even though Dean was becoming deathly ill when he didn’t kill often enough.

Crowley explained this seeming contradiction in the above exposition. He clarified that there are two aspects of the Mark of Cain and the Blade pairing that need to be understood separately. Crowley said that since Cain was a demon, his body could contain the Blade’s power. That clearly states that the Blade’s power, not the Mark, was killing human Dean. Apparently the Blade transfers power into the body holding it (remember that euphoric look on Dean’s face when he first touched and killed with the Blade?). A demon’s body can accept and store that power. A human body cannot. I’m reminded of the legend of the immortals in the movie and TV series “Highlander”. Killing resulted in a “quickening”, i.e. a power surge into the killer’s body. Immortals were strengthened each time they killed. The Blade seems to do the same thing. The Mark corrupts the soul and drives its bearer to kill but a demon’s body can contain, can store, the power it receives from the Blade after each kill. IF you are a demon, your body can bear the Mark without the Blade’s resulting “reward” killing you. So the Mark is clearly the corrupting force that is urging Dean to kill and turning Dean into a demon; while the Blade supplies the addicting, reinforcing drug.  Cain also exhibited substantial super-strength and faster reflexes that seem to be a side effect of bearing the Mark of Cain. So Dean will be an unstoppable force for a while?

So if I got this straight, the attributes of each half of this deadly pairing are the following:


1.       Drives the bearer to kill
2.       Corrupts the soul, making the bearer lose all their humanity until they are a demon
3.       Strengthens fighting skills superior to all other demons
4.       Grants immortality through instant physical healing

First Blade:

When fed with death, transfers a surge of evil power into the body of the bearer of the MoC. This “high” is addictive.  The more the bearer feeds the addiction by killing, the more they need to kill. A never ending spiral of killing. As with any addiction, physical dependence on the Blade’s high lessens the longer the bearer goes without a “hit”. So separating themselves from the Blade’s “reward” allows them to manage their addiction. Crowley strategically (and inconveniently) never answered the question of what happens if the bearer gets rid of the Blade but this drug analogy fits the facts.  Since Dean has lived through several recharges from the Blade’s energy, we must conclude that Dean is now a demon…or is he?

The second half of that critical sentence from the season 10 premiere was delivered by Dean:

Crowley: “The Mark needs to be sated, otherwise…”
Dean: “…otherwise I turn into a demon. Yeah, yeah. Sort of got that 6 weeks ago.”

What did Dean mean that otherwise he would turn into a demon? The line was repeated in the “Then” recap for 10.02, indicating to me that it is important! They specifically chose to emphasize this quote out of all the dialog they could have repeated in the recap! I know this is going to drive some of you crazy because you accepted Dean as a demon in “Black” and were already politely telling me I was crazy for looking at the ambiguity. The fact that this dichotomy was brought up again in “Reichenbach”, though, is undeniable. Crowley reiterated this human vs. demon conundrum later in the episode:

Crowley: What do you think you’re doing?

Dean: Well, whatever I want.

Crowley: Really, because I think you don’t know what you want. Tell me Dean, what are you? A demon? If so, why isn’t Lester’s wife dead? Did you feel sorry for her? So maybe you’re human, except you have those pretty black peepers and you’re working alongside me. Why don’t you do us all a great big favor, and pick a bloody side!
10.02 Crowley Mad 0927

In two clear statements now, Crowley and Dean have both said that being a demon is Dean’s choice. That implies that he can redeem his soul by his own free will, if he chooses to do good instead of evil. The problem is that he doesn’t seem to want to be cured.

Dean: “If I wanted to be cured, I wouldn’t have bailed.”
Sam: “That was Crowley”
Dean: “It really wasn’t.”

Dean then made his choice:

Cole: What are you?”
Dean: “I’m a demon.”

10.02 Dean Eyes 0667

He decided…but what’s interesting to me is why and how could he do that? Is the Mark clouding his thinking or does Dean hate himself that much? I deeply hope that he tells us once he is himself again. For now, I believe the Mark has erased Dean’s conscience, i.e. his soul, making him into the sociopath discussed last week, so Dean’s actions are being driven by the Mark.

Yet Cain also bore the Mark so how did he just decide to stop killing? When talking to Sam later, Crowley said, “Dean’s uncontrollable. Must be the Mark.” Crowley usually finds it easy to “control” demons. One logical implication then is that the Mark of Cain leaves it bearer with some free will, or intellect, to make choices. The Mark needs its bearer to be smart, not a mindless soldier, so the MoC demon retains some mindful will. Cain remains a demon who has chosen to “retire” as he put it, or just not act on his hedonistic desires. He seems to be living proof that the MoC bearer can be a demon without acting like a demon. That would also be consistent with Crowley’s warning that keeping but sating the Mark keeps the bearer from becoming a full-fledged demon, a creature of evil with no free will and no choices. Cain didn’t and doesn’t feel guilt or consequence from doing evil things because his soul is “dead” but he still chooses not to do those things because of a promise he made versus because of morality. This at least is one theory to explain the new canon we are being given.

We have concluded that both Dean’s and Cain’s bodies are capable of channeling the evil power of the Blade as long as their souls remain corrupted, i.e. the definition of a demon. In season 8, the brothers learned that curing demons, i.e. returning the soul’s purity, requires incantations and an infusion of humanity in the form of purified human blood, not just a “choice to be nice again”. Since Cain was never cured, we seem to have further evidence that the MoC bearer can remain a demon but, freed from the Blade’s constant reinforcement of evil, can choose not to do evil things.

So the Mark corrupted Dean’s soul, physically making him into a demon, but Dean hadn’t yet reconciled his human instincts with his demonic tendencies. In other words, there was still a little Dean in there somewhere. That would account for last week’s bad boy spree that was coupled with a few reflective moments. This is why Crowley told Dean he had to decide which way he wanted to go. With Dean’s declaration to Cole, Dean decided this week to fully embrace and act as a demon. Likely, the additional hits of evil energy he ingested after killing again with the Blade wiped away more of the lingering humanity in him.

10.02 Dean Stare 0332

So if any of this tracks, season 10 can go one of two ways:

1. Dean makes the same choice as Cain, i.e. Dean stays a demon yet acts human. He chooses good over evil. As long as he is the MoC demon, Dean  

·         will have super human fighting skills
·         will heal instantly, making him virtually immortal
·         will want to kill, but can choose not to (as Cain did) because of a promise he makes (to Sam?) after some trauma brings him to his senses (almost killing Sam?)

2. Sam quickly cures Dean of being a demon, returning him to human form. As such,

·         I think he will still have super human fighting skills
·         will not heal instantly, but will continually be resurrected by the Mark (I think??)
·         will want to kill, but can choose not to, guided by his own humanity and Sam's watchful eye

With the Blade gone, its lethal infusion of evil power won’t be an issue. So both options seem virtually the same until the brothers can remove the Mark.  Either way, Dean will have to resist the corrupting influences of the Mark while they look for a way to remove it permanently. Since season 10 has been promoted as the year of the “Deanmon”, it seems that the first option is most likely. The boys will spend the year trying to find a way to reverse/contain the effects of the Mark and cure Dean. Yet we know that Dean is himself by the 200th episode, so...

10.02 Sam confused 1017
Crowley tells Sam that Dean is his problem, now and forever.

Got it? That was a painfully long path to make sense of all the MoC demon contradictions. Do you agree with my theories and conclusions? Which way do you think season 10 will go? I promise that the rest of this article will be easier to digest!


Giving away the Blade will make it hard to kill Cain, but he couldn’t be killed by the Blade anyway so maybe we’ve seen the last of the Blade, forever.

Cole now knows about demons. Was that “let Sam escape” thing true? He chose to not go after Sam, but Sam freed himself on his own.

Castiel’s conversation with that little girl was absolutely adorable and so MISHA! Dreaming about snot?! Misha had to have input into that idea! It’s so “Cooking with West”’ uninhibited! Yet that was Castiel’s smile, not Misha’s (which we have seen so many times in convention photographs). Separating himself from his character when talking to an adorable princess was wonderful acting.

10.02 Cas Smile 0823

Young Dean was wearing the Samulet!

Kudos to casting a female as the tow truck driver. Woman caring for herself, raising a child in a stereotypical male occupation. Appreciate the strong woman role.

10.02 RoadRunner 0780

The “Roadrunner” cartoon! Way to reuse licenses that had already been purchased (“Hunteri Heroici”).

Crowley’s boredom at the statistics demon was laugh out loud hilarious!

My family also laughed hysterically at the cowboy pic and Crowley pining over Dean to “Lonely Girl”!

So, again, I’m way out on a limb trying to make sense of Demon!Dean. Test, question, push and pull at these theories to see if they hold up…or correct them if you have simpler or more logical conclusions. We have one week to make sense of all this before we find out what Dean wants to do to poor Sammy!

Screencaps courtesy of
Past dialog transcripts from


# cheryl42 2014-10-16 17:01
Well if we are allowed, Jensen kind of alluded to what Dean was going to be like at TorCon. One of your guesses appears to be correct. Maybe this is going to be Dean's demon blood story. Will he be uber powerful and unstoppable? Like Sam only going after demons? Since it is a power that comes from evil there is surely going to be a price. Sam's story remains pretty vague so I imagine your guess that Sam's job this season is to watch out for Dean and make sure he doesn't go too far also looks to be correct. I did like the fact that even though Dean threatened Sam he never tried to hurt him at least in this episdode. Of his two adversaries in the parking lot Cole was no threat at all. However Sam was, but Dean chose to go after Cole. Dean still doesn't want to hurt Sam painful threats aside. Even though I do think that Dean had chosen to be a demon when Sam showed up (and I will have to go back and watch the scene but supposedly Dean was playing "Hey Jude" on the piano) I think he might have wavered just a little. Self hate aside why would Dean choose to be a demon? Isn't this the very enemy that Dean has hated and hunted his whole life? Or is the addiction so powerful he can't let it go.
Slight hint from Jensen aside I guess we will have to wait and see what having the Mark without the weapon means for Dean. I am looking forward to Dean (real Dean) powered up to fight evil (and hopefully only evil) but with all of his humanity intact. His body was dead, will getting rid of the Mark mean curtains for Dean? Or is he healed completely.
Great job assembling all of the demon MOC Blade facts from S9. Still very confused though.
# njspnfan 2014-10-16 18:11
# ParadiseHeat 2014-10-17 07:02
I dont think Crowley's plans include Sam at all, Carver's 'who the real monster' speil is about what Sam has been doing during his search for Dean which we will find out in a flashback in episode 3. Its apparently worse than torturing demons or anything demon Dean opr Soulless Sam ever did? Jared alluded to Sam killing humans which to me isnt really all that bad considering Sam has killed humans before, not sure how that would make him a monster? But whatever, it does not appear that the Mythology includes Sam in any way this season and the only plans Crowley has for Sam this season is to taunt him about what a loser he is (a reflection of the writers opinion of Sam) and try to replace him as Dean's new brother.
# E 2014-10-17 21:48
What humans has Sam killed?
# cheryl42 2014-10-17 22:11
Well since Crowley's plan for Dean apparently failed he had to include Sam in his plan to get a handle on Dean. I'm sure that Crowley is hoping that Sam can diffuse the time bomb that he helped create in DD. It looks like Crowley is also going to try to get Cas to help in trying to control the monster in Dean as well. Like Sam said it appears to be an all hands on deck mission to save/cure Dean. And it didn't look like Dean wanted a new brother. He wasn't going to be under anyone's rule. And while it is true that SS killed innocents Sam in his right mind/and soul has always tried to save them just like Dean has. It does look like Sam is going to be the one to save his brother and be there for him as he tries to come to terms with the MOC and it's after affects. I am reasonably certain that the writers love Jared/Sam just as much as the do any other character on the show.
# nightsky 2014-10-17 10:56
they are leaving this somewhat open to interpretation so we'll wonder how much of this was the real Dean, and how much of it was the demon part driving his actions?
This would be consistent with Jensen's comment that Sam and the audience will always we wondering if Dean's actions are Dean or Mark motivated.
Sam will have to be there watching his brother to make sure he doesn't step over the line.
Either Jared or Jensen or some press release or something (I can't keep all the spoilers straight!) also said that Sam will be watching his brother all year.

I am curious if Crowley turns his attention to Sam, or if his plans always included Sam. There isn't anything to indicate that yet, but it is an interesting speculation based on Crowley's cunning and Sam's past. Season 12 maybe? :)

Thank you for your compliment about the article! Yes, this one had my head in overdrive! I was still rewriting sentences to clarify logic as late as posting! I could really use a fun or highly emotional article to do next. They are more creative, less college thesis!
# Rene4 2014-10-16 18:25
Really liked your article, Nightsky, and especially your part in figuring out some of the demon Dean and MOC possibilities. I was confused and, yes, still am, but at least someone out there has sort of, maybe figured this out.
I do wonder, though. With Crowley taking the blade, will Dean get sick and yak his guts out because he is not using the blade to kill with? Or, even without the blade, if he kills he will get the benefit-the addictive feeling sated? Or, without the blade, he will not get his addiction filled so he will stop killing?
Loved Cas with the little girl and his reaction to her and her snot story. It does sound like a West story, maybe Cas loaned it to the episode.
Scary to have Crowley as the owner of the blade. Of course, he would want it so Dean couldn't use it on him, but I think there might be more. How valuable can the MOC blade be-especially in the world Crowley lives in.
# nightsky 2014-10-17 11:08
With Crowley taking the blade, will Dean get sick and yak his guts out because he is not using the blade to kill with? Or, even without the blade, if he kills he will get the benefit-the addictive feeling sated? Or, without the blade, he will not get his addiction filled so he will stop killing?
If I remember the sequence of events clearly, Dean did not get sick until he had killed with the Blade at least once. The long quote above has Dean saying that "since I killed Abaddon, I really, really need to kill." My unraveling of this twisted plot indicates that Dean was sick BECAUSE he killed with the Blade while human. He had been given a "hit" of the Blade's super energy drug and he was throwing up without his next fix. As a human,
==> kill with blade again, get another hit of demon energy until eventually it turns you into a demon
==> don't kill with the blade, and the demon energy inside you already kills you (rough detox)
As a demon now though, he should be like Cain. He should be able to hold the energy already inside of him without dying (detox included) because the Mark keeps him alive AND a demon body can process the evil power. As long as he doesn't kill with the Blade again, the cycle should not repeat. Killing with normal weapons shouldn't really do anything special. Killing with the Mark progressed him toward demon when he was human, but now that he is already a demon, I don't think it can do anything further to him.
# E 2014-10-16 19:03
Great threads article Nightsky! Thanks for trying to unravel the mysteries of Demon Dean. I was confused and I think I am still a little bit confused but maybe less so. My problem is that before Dean died using the blade made him MORE of a demon and now after he's died and been resurrected using the blade makes him LESS of a demon. Seems pretty convenient for the writers that this is the case… don't you think? Won't that create a problem for Dean though, without Crowley "feeding" him demons to sate the mark won't Dean go off the charts crazy aggressive? That's what Crowley insinuated anyway. Oy… still confused.

I think it's kind of sad that your threads article does not have one single thread about Sam. I hate to think that this is all there is for Sam this season, to babysit post MoC Dean, but so far… there's basically nothing going on with him outside of looking for and trying to save Dean. That's fine for now, but a main character deserves more than that. Castiel is concerned for Dean and trying to help Sam but still has his own story with it's own threads, and so does Crowley… so why not Sam? Hopefully something will come down the pike; sooner rather than later would be fine by me. And I'd like whatever is going on with Sam to directly tie in to what's happening with Dean now, that would be pretty satisfying. TPTB keep coming back to their "who is the true monster" theme in interviews and it makes me wonder if Sam did something foolish… like sell his soul foolish? I am not sure that they would re-tread this same old ground but there has to be SOMETHING in the works for Sam as a character, he's a lead for crying out loud.

I REALLY hope that Dean does not stay immortal or have any superpowers after Sam cures him. To me it kills all the dramatic tension to have an invincible character who does not have to feel fear or be concerned for their well being and goes into every fight with an overconfident air because they know they can't loose. Not only would that be incredibly boring, but it would put Sam into the position once again of always being the damsel in distress waiting around for invincible Dean to come save him. Yuck. Hate that scenario and REALLY hope that Dean is basically just plain old Dean when he's cured; maybe with an addiction problem, but thats it.. no super powers or ability to heal himself or any one else or immortality. Its the fact that these guys are basically just ordinary humans and still manage to fight the good fight that is most compelling.
# Sharon 2014-10-17 07:29
I think Sam is whatever the story need's him to be whether he has the mytharc or not . I would like a brothers relationship that can be based on love but also mutual respect and understanding and one that encompassess Sam and his pov but after last season I do not think that will happen . I agree about Dean he needs to be back to being Dean without any trimmings and his hunting based on his natural instinct and experience and Sam needs his hearing tested because anybody seems to be able to best him .
# elle2 2014-10-16 19:18
Hi, Nightsky,

As usual, this was superb. I just finished my review that Alice will post at our sister site at some point and I didn't get to some fabulous words about Sam that I had wanted to. I try to keep my reviews to 1000 words or less, but failed utterly here. Still, you covered what I had wanted to cover, so I say: THANK YOU.

This line especially had me cheering: "It’s as if we lost Dean but found Sam". As a standalone line as well as in the context in which you have written it above, it captures perfectly why I am so happy with this season thus far. I won't include some of Jared's comments from the recent TorCon, be they tweets or actual comments or paraphrases from attendees (paraphrases are always dicey as sometimes the person's excitement throws the context to the wind, but still...), anyway, some of the things Jared is saying about where the season goes from here with Sam and Dean has me very excited. Great job with your analysis here. I do love all your threads, even in the seasons I haven't liked as much, you managed to pull things out that caused me to look at things differently, more positively. Kudos to you.
# cheryl42 2014-10-16 19:51
That's great to hear about Jared's comments. I hadn't read anything accept what was said by Jensen. But they do keep alluding to something monstrous that Sam has done so I am looking forward (or maybe dreading I can't decide) to that development. BTW I do love your reviews but I have trouble sometimes logging on to make a comment on TVFTROU.
# elle2 2014-10-17 07:41
Hi, Cheryl42,
Admittedly both here and on TVFTROU I simply post as a guest. I keep forgetting my password and stuff, so I just do it as a guest. Lazy I guess. Jared's recent comments have more to do with where he is at (Sam that is) in regards to Dean, and for me, it's a welcome shift. Some may dislike it, although it depends on how it plays out, but I like it when the characters do something different. I'll take a risk right now and state this: I have wanted Sam to be written as grown up and capable for a long, long time. In many ways he is grown up and capable, but in many others the writers keep putting him in the same place again and again: damaged, weakened, needing Dean to "carry" him. To me, this looks like a chance for that to change as for the first time in a long time, Sam is not damaged, weakened, in imminent danger of dying due to a soul being replaced, yet a tattered psyche, and/or trials killing him and then being possessed by an angel that for some unfathomable reason keeps healing people from actual death, but can't simply zap Sam back into healthy form, thus Dean was forever carrying him. Now, aside from two episodes and two knock outs (I agree with Alice, find a new way of immobilizing him -- tazer, chokehold, or think harder about how and where you place him) he looks to be the one doing the carrying. As for his monstrous deeds, I am looking forward as well as dreading what they entail, but at least both brothers have been monstrous this time and thus no one should be judging the other. We shall see.

# sylvia37 2014-10-17 08:35
From your mouth to Carver's ears. I know that Jared has stated that he knows Sam and cares about him and is in intent on staying true to who he is, but I'm still dreading what he might have done. Sam always seems to get the short end of that stick, and we've been burned so many times in the past that I have a hard time being optimistic. If they somehow manage to blend both boy's stories, keeping them equally interesting and upfront, then my faith will be renewed. They have not proven capable of that for a while now, so I guess I'm gun shy.

Thanks Nightsky for the comprehensive look at Dean and the MOC. It really has been confusing.
# elle2 2014-10-17 17:54
I share your concern, Sylvia37, the writers do not have a good track record of blending both brothers' stories and keeping them interesting. I maintain my cautious optimism. Frankly, I'll be happy if I'm cautiously optimistic throughout the entire season only to post at the end: that was fabulous from start to finish! Here's hoping. :-)
# cheryl42 2014-10-17 11:00
Sometimes I can post as a guest and sometimes I can't but I do read your reviews. I do look forward to both characters turning into the heros we love to watch. I was one that didn't care for the nurse maid role of Dean in the second half of S8 and I hope we don't get that same role for Sam this season. I want both of these characters to care for each other, die for each other (just not at the expense of the rest of humanity) and start saving people hunting things as equals. And no more secrets please. Although Crowley's comment to Dean about something he should know makes me think that he told Dean whatever it was that Sam did. So there is that drama to come. Hopefully it isn't another big wedge between the guys that lasts the rest of the season.
# elle2 2014-10-17 18:03
Cheryl42, I agree on the nurse maid role, I didn't enjoy it in season 8 -- mostly 'cause we've seen it before, end of Season 5, throughout Seasons 6 and 7. Also, it was all over the place, one moment Dean was fine with Sam doing the trials, then the next episode he didn't like it, then he was okay with Sam being sick because he, Dean, was there to help, and then he was not sure Sam could do it, then he was supporting Sam and then was all over. I kind of got the sense from Jared's comments, which were very short, that it was more about Sam kind of being a steadying force for Dean as things move forward, kind of like he's keeping an eye on him so as to ensure his demon impulses are under control (that last bit is my extrapolation of Jared's comment.) We'll see how it plays out, as long as it isn't a complete reversal with Sam worrying endlessly like we've seen Dean do. I want to see more of the whole, "We keep each other human" and less of the whole I'll carry you for the rest of the season because you obviously can't.

As I commented to someone else, I remain cautiously optimistic, and I'll be happy if I keep saying that for the next 20+ episodes.
Glad you're out there reading, even if you can't always post. Sometimes these sites (and their Catcha thingies) are hard. ;-)
# uhmyeah 2014-10-17 01:45
I think the heaven storyline is going to be interesting this season. I appreciate that Cas finally has something he can believe in. He has spent much of the past trying to figure out "God's will" resulting in a whole lot of insecurity, indecision, and poor choices). I think we got a glimpse of how scary angry Cas with conviction would be with Metatron (it became clear suddenly why Misha has convincingly played villains). While it may come down to sacrificing Cas to save heaven I don't think it will be a passive event. It would be really anti-climactic to just have Cas take all season long to shrivel away eventually. If his Grace is really binding the vale Cas dying will not release it or open heaven for business. He would have to take back his Grace to open heaven. Going on Cas' history if he thought his death would save heaven, he wouldn't hesitate. That's a little less likely now with Metatron's threat. Cas will feel that he needs to stay to defend humanity if Metatron really does escape. I'm hopeful that the solution to Cas' problem will NOT be a bigger problem & it would be nice if the solution involved some tiny affirmation from his father as well...just a token "hang-in-there kiddo". But it's unlikely that he'll get another airplane ride reset. (Maybe a bus?)

Still a bit confused on the demon thing- I thought if Sam un-demons Dean since it's the Mark that drives killing it was he will need to kill or yak his guts out. But the idea now is that without the blade he won't get the same "high" off of killing. Does the Mark demand that he kill with the blade or could he kill with some other weapon? My brain hurts :)) I like how this story has re-focused the relationship between the brothers. Is it possible that Cole might play a part in saving Dean? There is the possibility that Dean did NOT kill Cole's father, but walked in after ganking the monster that did. The kill was too messy for a blade. If that's the case and they get it cleared up (and could be sure that he wouldn't use it to gank them or other innocents) might Cole provide a "worthy" successor to the Mark?
# foundmyzen 2014-10-18 10:26
I agree with you about how scary "angry Cas with conviction" is, as that moment with Metatron made me cheer. I marvel at how far our fallen angel has come. The lessons he's finally learned. When he started out it was all about being a good soldier and following heaven's orders but he lacked respect or understanding for humanity. Now he understands humans with all their complexity and can empathize which he is trying to relate to Hannah (teaching poetry to fish.) Up until this point he has not been able to get one angel to understand what he sees in humanity. That's why what happened in "Black" confused me. Why would he help Hannah "return or be killed" those angels that wanted to stay on Earth? He understands free will and he gets to stay on Earth, so why? But "Reichenbach" reinforced his love of humanity and brought Hannah a glimpse of that too. His scene with that little girl was too adorable. I'm still not sure I trust Hannah but I'm on board with anyone who loves Cas and she's obviously got a thing for him (can't blame her there!) As for saving heaven, getting it opened again, I just hope that heaven starts to change a bit. Opening it up again when it's still just chaos and fighting is stupid. Have no other angels learned anything from their time on Earth? Cas doesn't want to lead Heaven even if he's the most qualified to do so and even if he's saved. He wants to be on Earth. And honestly, I for one want him back with the Winchesters. His "home" is with them.
# nightsky 2014-10-17 11:22
He has spent much of the past trying to figure out "God's will" resulting in a whole lot of insecurity, indecision, and poor choices). I think we got a glimpse of how scary angry Cas with conviction
This line you wrote gave me an "Ah Ha!" moment. Castiel failed at all his other attempts to do God's will because Cas was only trying to execute what he thought someone else (God) wanted him to do. With his personal experience with humanity and Metatron's threat to wipe out humanity, Cas understands the mission now. The passion he feels for the mission is internalized. It is HIS mission, not God's. He isn't struggling with choosing free will over his soldier's credo to obey. He has accepted free will and that has given him insight and motivation, versus obedience and conflicting loyalties. Thank you!
About your questions on Demon Dean killing, maybe see the comment I just added to Rene4, above. It might address your confusion. If not, ask again and I'll try to answer more specifically.
# nightsky 2014-10-17 11:29
There have been a few comments about Sam not having a storyline yet. I personally am thrilled just to have Sam feel like himself and act independently of possessions, insanity, guilt, etc. I am curious, though, what storylines would be satisfying about Sam this season? If you have some ideas on this, please jump over to our beta "Sam Discussion Page (" ewinchesterfami lets-discuss/13 6-general-discu ssions/18793-sa m-s-study-the-s am-winchester-d iscussion-threa d")" since the tangent would be solely about Sam and not the episode. I can "meet" you over there and continue the conversation. The rules over on that page are that you can express your wish list for Sam without worrying that it leaves out Dean (and visa-versa on the Dean page). No pressure, just an invitation.

Besides the link above, the Sam and Dean Discussion Pages can be found :
From the Main Menu at the top of all our pages, hit "Discussion Page".
That will take you to the entry page, where you can choose either Sam's Page (Sam's Study) or Dean's Page (Dean's Den). We will be formally introducing these pages in a little bit, along with all the other enhancements we are making to the site, but we can certainly use the pages now!
# cheryl42 2014-10-17 16:38
Could you post the link to the Sam thread. I couldn't find it so I followed njspnfan's latest comment and got there that way.
# nightsky 2014-10-17 19:10
Done. Thanks for the suggestion.
# Daisymae 2014-10-17 15:36
If I understood this correctly, Dean will remain a Demon when the blade is away from him but can decide to be good. I would love for Dean to be a Demon for the whole season or maybe forever, but not kill or be evil. It would be a constant challenge for him not to go dark side. They could still have the brotherly love because Sam would be Dean's Collette. I just think it would be a cool storyline even though some fans would hate it. I'm also hoping that the solution TPTB came up with isn't cheap or gimmicky.
# mary9930 2014-10-18 10:22
Thanks Nightsky. By Jove, I think I've got it! Maybe you could make up a MOC & 1st Blade study guide that we can reference during future episodes :)
# foundmyzen 2014-10-18 10:45
Well done Nightsky! I'd like to say this clarified things for me but I'm still wondering how Dean is going to be Hunter Dean if he can't kill and what happens with the MoC. I'm just going to have to wait and see what our wonderful Carver and team work it out for us! All I know for sure is that I'm enjoying the HELL out of this! Your line "It’s as if we lost Dean but found Sam" hit right in my heart! The last couple of seasons I felt poor Sammy was all over the place. Him losing Dean in Purgatory for that year left him in a tailspin and having him back was a period of adjustment and guilt and anger. Now it feels like Sam is finally Sam again even if he is a bit stressed and grieved. He's focused and doing everything out of love for his brother. THAT's the Sammy I love! When he told DD that he was going to take him home I started crying. For a boy/man who never had a home, never attached to anything I thought that was incredibly telling of how Sam has changed. I just hope he gets to keep his home for once and it won't feel like home again until Dean is back in it.
# spnlit 2014-10-19 17:18
Stellar effort at analyzing and attempting to make sense of the canon of MOC & Blade. The MOC wanted Dean to kill and if he did not he would die. So if Dean would have stopped killing he would have just died. (Okay then Dean was not immortal at this point). Dean killed with the Blade that made him high. Crowley had to place the blade in Dean's hand that SEEMED to have caused his resurrection as a demon. So I have to disagree with you that the Blade is what was killing human Dean. Human Dean was being destroyed by the MOC. The blade powered up Dean but he was not able to "CONTAIN" the power like Cain because unlike Cain he was only human. Maybe that is why Dean had to keep killing over and over again to satisfy the Mark because the power of the Blade would drain. Now the MOC wants Dean to kill or it will turn him into a Demon. This means a few things.... 1) death is no longer a threat. 2) MOC threatens the bearer with some dire consequence if it does not get sated with continued killing. 3) Dean is demonic but not a full fledged Demon. I just do not get why the MOC would turn Dean into a demon if he did not keep killing. Is Dean immortal? Iif yes when and how did he become immortal? What is the difference between a demon and a demonic killing machine? It seems like it means that Dean can still make some choice between being demonic and a demon. But again not much difference. Sam can cure a full formed demon I disagree with your statement that full fledged demons are creatures with no free will or choices. (Agree they cannot choose to go back to being human) but Ruby and Meg certainly made choices and had some free will about what they were doing and who they were following. (Only angels created by God were made to follow only the will of God- but they have the capacity to choose free will and rebel.) Still too many questions with no clear answers. Is Dean a Demon or not? What is the difference? Is he choosing to be a demon? (Crowley thinks Dean can pick a side). Did Dean ever really die.... looked like he did and was resurrected. If the MOC made him immortal then he never died.... but it was played like he did. Then the blade resurrected him. If this is the case what will happen if he never uses the blade gain.... no power? So for this viewer, I am laying this all to rest as being illogical and inconsistent and I intend to not give it another thought.
# ThisOldBag 2014-10-20 13:04
Only Episode 2 and already the threads are multiplying. It occurs to me that there are still other aspects of Cain v DDean stories that have not been (and may never be) addressed. Mainly, what Cain did to jumpstart everything was kill his brother. Once that was done he appears to have allowed his inner demon to take over. Perhaps that is what Crowley is trying to push Dean into? It would be an interesting twist.
Also, didn't Cain say the Blade was useless without the mark? So how is the blade of any use to anyone but Dean now? Can that jagged bit of bone actually do any damage if anyone else uses it? I realize Crowley said he would try to hide it from Dean and not use it himself, but perhaps he is actually holding on to it so it will be available when he thinks Dean is ready to use it again (and not on Crowley).
I watched the first 2 episodes together and they flowed really well. The production and performances were superb as usual. I don't know how the odd Angel story and Cole's story will eventually fit in (and, unlike some others, I don't care about the "age" of the actor (it's called acting) as all you youngsters look alike to me anyway) but I do hope he has more of a purpose than a "spin-off" type thing.
Can't wait for more threads! Thanks Nightsky!