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Much like Sharp Teeth this episode was by and large stand alone, a pretty good one if you ask you me, but with a much deeper undertone and some not-so-subtle swipes at the note we left on last week. Also like 9x12, this had a brotherly heart-to-heart at the end but instead of simply leaving on a melancholy sad-but-functional place; this week had more that rip-your-heart-out-and-stomp-it-to-pulp finality about it. And with that said, let’s talk about the veritable hour of smiles and love that was [not] The Purge.

As I said, I quite enjoyed this episode overall. Yes, it was another independent storyline and yes, I’m anxious to return to the Mark of Cain and all surrounding plot points but a breather is good too. Particularly one where we can address the brothers’ relationship in an environment separate from the end-of-world atmosphere it’s usually being discussed in. This episode opens with two things immediately clear: Dean is not dealing well with this new co-workers but not brothers’ arrangement (did anyone expect he would?) and Sam is aware of Dean but not apologetic for what he said – he meant it, which he reaffirms solidly later on. For now it’s business as usual which means a case and lots of opportunity for continued lack of synchronicity between Sam and Dean to rear its head and some unsubtle tweaks at Sam’s push that they be business partners only and his decision to be “honest.”
 
Fat Suckers and Family Members

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The case this week was fun for all sorts of reasons. First, we had some great accents. Then we had Dean with donut powder on his face. And of course, who can forget about Sam the Yoga Instructor? Yum. I so enjoy the episodes where the monster doesn’t turn out to be the bad guy exactly as you think – and in this case it was a little bit of sibling trouble. Gee, who could possibly relate to that at all? Sam? Dean? So our Peruvian Fat Sucker actually became a kind of avatar for the Winchesters in a way, here.

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On one hand, we have the older sibling who tried to control the younger and push them into a certain lifestyle. And she did it thinking, truly, it was in the best interests of the entire family. Yes there were some selfish motivations behind her choices but they weren’t entirely self-serving. On the other side, a brother who so resented being forced down a path that buck against the system resulted in deep bloodshed and devastation for all involved, not to mention the casualties. Is it a rough, harsh and sharp-edged comparative to the Winchester family? Absolutely. But the comparison stands none the less.

Let me also say, before staunch defenders of either brother finish gathering weapons, I don’t mean the analysis to throw mud on either of the boys. The point is merely both siblings have made moves recently they felt necessary and made by attempting to control every aspect of the narrative without input from other key players,  and said moves have resulted more in heartache than anything else at this juncture. Much like Maritza’s moves in an attempt to better her family and show her brother a new way of life ended with everyone she loved dead and her life in tatters. The point is – Sam and Dean work best in unison rather than out of sync.
 
Table Talk

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Okay, deep breath everyone because we’re about to wade into a deep pool of hurt and emotion. This conversation between Sam and Dean at the end, well frankly I don’t know where to begin so let’s discuss the mechanics first. The acting and writing were beautiful. My heart hurt watching this whole exchange. Truly phenomenal.

Now, as to the meaty points. Dean argues that he understands why Sam is upset, but he has to defend what he’s done because his choices saved Sam’s life and he’d do it again. Sam’s point is that he did it because a) Sam is his brother and b) because Dean can’t be alone. Sam was ready to die, but Dean wasn’t ready to let him. Now, this argument could be made anytime a soul is sold. It could have been made about the situation in Faith. John did this for Dean’s life, in fact. It’s a Winchester cycle – albeit without the 100% absolute firm knowledge the person is “ready to go” as it were. Nevertheless, I appreciate what Sam’s point is about that. However, telling Dean he was sacrificial until it came to himself, well, that was a hard blow, there Sammy. One I’m not on board with – but I’ll argue about that somewhere else.

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The hardest sting – truly – was when he told Dean he would do the same thing. Really? Sam is so firm, so resolute in this that I can’t help wondering how this will be tested. Surely this will be tested somehow – because he can say that now, as he feels after what has happened, but if the situations were truly reversed I don’t believe him. For Dean, the look on his face, it must equate to being told he isn’t loved as much. (No, I’m not saying this is what Sam said – just speculate based on the expression and what we know about Dean’s character). Sam means everything – family means everything. It is the entirety of Dean and at the desperate moments, like Sam’s life on the line, that can wholly overpower all reason. So maybe he doesn’t make good decisions in the moment, but that doesn’t mean they’re made. It means it’s a desperate moment choice, made by an overwhelmed, over-exhausted person driven by love. That should count a bit, eh Sam? Just saying you’re not brothers, doesn’t make that’s not a factor in those moments anymore. Wait and see.

Final Thoughts

These boys, what to do with them. Dean’s emotional threads must be to the very last fibers – assuming any remain at all. I can’t help but think that the less he feels he has to lose, the more reckless he will be and the sooner Sammy will have to test that “won’t pull my brother back from the brink” theory. Ahh, irony. You are a fickle mistress who loves to toy with the Winchesters.
Discuss.

Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 00:15
Elle thank you for your insightful review. When Sam said he wouldn't do what Dean had done same circumstances my feeling was that Sam wouldn't want Dean to feel what Sam felt when he remembered killing Kevin. This isn't the first time that Sam has been possessed and had to watch helplessly as he killed innocent people, people he loved. I don't think he would ever want Dean to go through something like that. That was why he looked so sad when he said it. It gave him no pleasure. He knew how much his words hurt Dean and he knew he could never make Dean understand. But I do think they are each going to walk in each others shoes. I think Sam will find out just how far he would go to save Dean and I think the mark of Cain is going to have unexpected affects on Dean.
I thought the most troubling statement was from Dean when he said he would do it again. Maybe this is the growth that Dean is going to go through. Just because he can do something doesn't mean he should. Maybe he will learn that he needs to think things through first. Although I will give it to Dean he didn't have a whole lot of time in he hospital to make his decision. With the information that he had he took a gamble and lost. Poor Dean always seems to be in a no win situation. Maybe the writers will be kinder to the guys. Well we can hope.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 00:15
Elle thank you for your insightful review. When Sam said he wouldn't do what Dean had done same circumstances my feeling was that Sam wouldn't want Dean to feel what Sam felt when he remembered killing Kevin. This isn't the first time that Sam has been possessed and had to watch helplessly as he killed innocent people, people he loved. I don't think he would ever want Dean to go through something like that. That was why he looked so sad when he said it. It gave him no pleasure. He knew how much his words hurt Dean and he knew he could never make Dean understand. But I do think they are each going to walk in each others shoes. I think Sam will find out just how far he would go to save Dean and I think the mark of Cain is going to have unexpected affects on Dean.
I thought the most troubling statement was from Dean when he said he would do it again. Maybe this is the growth that Dean is going to go through. Just because he can do something doesn't mean he should. Maybe he will learn that he needs to think things through first. Although I will give it to Dean he didn't have a whole lot of time in he hospital to make his decision. With the information that he had he took a gamble and lost. Poor Dean always seems to be in a no win situation. Maybe the writers will be kinder to the guys. Well we can hope.
Lacysos
# Lacysos 2014-02-16 03:29
In 901 Dean said, "Sam would rather die than be possessed." In 909 Dean said to Sam (who turned out to be Gadereel), "I tricked you into saying yes.... you would have never agreed and you would have died."

Proably the reason Sam feels so strongly about possession is because he's been possessed before. He remembers Meg killing that hunter in his body. Now he remember Gadreel killing Kevin.

In 913 Dean asked, "If the situation was reversed and I was the one dying, you would do the SAME thing?" Sam said, "no Dean I wouldn't. SAME circumstances. I wouldn't."

I believe they are talking about "tricked possession". Nothing else.

The sacrifice statement: You're willing to do the sacrificing as long as it's not you hurting.(?) The one who is hurts is the one who gets left behind to live alone. This goes hand in hand with the previous statement that Dean saved him because he's terrified of living alone.
Lacysos
# Lacysos 2014-02-16 03:29
In 901 Dean said, "Sam would rather die than be possessed." In 909 Dean said to Sam (who turned out to be Gadereel), "I tricked you into saying yes.... you would have never agreed and you would have died."

Proably the reason Sam feels so strongly about possession is because he's been possessed before. He remembers Meg killing that hunter in his body. Now he remember Gadreel killing Kevin.

In 913 Dean asked, "If the situation was reversed and I was the one dying, you would do the SAME thing?" Sam said, "no Dean I wouldn't. SAME circumstances. I wouldn't."

I believe they are talking about "tricked possession". Nothing else.

The sacrifice statement: You're willing to do the sacrificing as long as it's not you hurting.(?) The one who is hurts is the one who gets left behind to live alone. This goes hand in hand with the previous statement that Dean saved him because he's terrified of living alone.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-16 04:19
A decision made in a moment I can forgive (and probably Sam could too). It's harder to forgive Dean's lies for months afterwards, his lack of checking into 'Ezekiel' once he had chance and the fact he didn't warn Kevin even when he knew 'Zeke' was actually Gadreel.

And Dean never said anything about understanding why Sam is upset (I checked the transcript). I think that is what is really upsetting me about the writing for Dean at the moment. He's on the defensive and showing no concern for what he put Sam through.

I think the final straw for Sam was when Dean said he'd do it again - even after Kevin's death at Sam's hands. I think Sam was quite right to say he wouldn't put Dean through that, even to save his life ("same circumstances.. . I wouldn't").

I have the deepest sympathy for Dean's issues, given the pressure put on him by John at a very young age, but he's not the only one hurting here. Everyone seems to forget that, since the writers give us so little insight into Sam's pain.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-16 04:19
A decision made in a moment I can forgive (and probably Sam could too). It's harder to forgive Dean's lies for months afterwards, his lack of checking into 'Ezekiel' once he had chance and the fact he didn't warn Kevin even when he knew 'Zeke' was actually Gadreel.

And Dean never said anything about understanding why Sam is upset (I checked the transcript). I think that is what is really upsetting me about the writing for Dean at the moment. He's on the defensive and showing no concern for what he put Sam through.

I think the final straw for Sam was when Dean said he'd do it again - even after Kevin's death at Sam's hands. I think Sam was quite right to say he wouldn't put Dean through that, even to save his life ("same circumstances.. . I wouldn't").

I have the deepest sympathy for Dean's issues, given the pressure put on him by John at a very young age, but he's not the only one hurting here. Everyone seems to forget that, since the writers give us so little insight into Sam's pain.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-16 04:48
Nothing Dean did was right in this even if I sympathized with the edict he lives by with Sam. He knew from the off Sam would not want possession , he is well aware as is the fandom of Sam's history with possession and not having control.

Steve Wendell died because Meg possessed him and now Kevin has died because Gadreel possessed him neither was a willing possession,when judging what Sam said to Dean then there is alot to factor in . If the boys had been getting on great and then Sam had said what he did then I could understand the feelings towards what he said but this was not the case .

I feel that Sam's trauma seems to become secondary to Dean's feelings because people feel closer to Dean.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-16 04:48
Nothing Dean did was right in this even if I sympathized with the edict he lives by with Sam. He knew from the off Sam would not want possession , he is well aware as is the fandom of Sam's history with possession and not having control.

Steve Wendell died because Meg possessed him and now Kevin has died because Gadreel possessed him neither was a willing possession,when judging what Sam said to Dean then there is alot to factor in . If the boys had been getting on great and then Sam had said what he did then I could understand the feelings towards what he said but this was not the case .

I feel that Sam's trauma seems to become secondary to Dean's feelings because people feel closer to Dean.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-16 08:31
Saying Dean is terrified of being alone and that is why he saved Sam is just not true. That issue was ended in "Free to be You and Me" and "The End"

Cas pulled Sam from the cage without a soul, on purpose I believe, broke the wall in his head and Sam asked Dean to go easy on Cas. Then gave him a hug in "First Born". Last season Sam had a heart to heart with Meg, who originally possessed him and killed a hunter, No hard feelings.

Sam is self righteous and inconsistent and what he said to Dean was cruel and not true. Sam had no problem with leaving Kevin on his own for a year knowing he was with Crowley the last time he saw him. Sam said "yes" to ending the trials and "yes" to Dean's plan. Sam just doesn't like to take responsibility for his actions. It's always someone else's fault, not his choices.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-16 08:31
Saying Dean is terrified of being alone and that is why he saved Sam is just not true. That issue was ended in "Free to be You and Me" and "The End"

Cas pulled Sam from the cage without a soul, on purpose I believe, broke the wall in his head and Sam asked Dean to go easy on Cas. Then gave him a hug in "First Born". Last season Sam had a heart to heart with Meg, who originally possessed him and killed a hunter, No hard feelings.

Sam is self righteous and inconsistent and what he said to Dean was cruel and not true. Sam had no problem with leaving Kevin on his own for a year knowing he was with Crowley the last time he saw him. Sam said "yes" to ending the trials and "yes" to Dean's plan. Sam just doesn't like to take responsibility for his actions. It's always someone else's fault, not his choices.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 08:59
Prix how was it laid to rest in FTBYAM and TE? I don't get the connection.
I don't believe it was stated anywhere that Cas pulled Sam out of the cage soulless on purpose. On the contrary in TMWWBK Cas was trying to reward Dean with bringing Sam back to him. If you remember the scene under the lamp Cas was confused when Sam walked away..and yes Sam forgave Cas for what he did because Sam knew he made globally destructive choices as well.
There was no indication from Sam that he forgave Meg for anything. They were working together to find the angel tablets. As Sam said to Meg "you haven't been the most trustworthy person in our lives". But you might be right since Sam is forgiving in nature.
What Sam said to Dean was true for Sam. He knew that his words hurt Dean and it hurt him to say them. And yes Sam apologized to Kevin and Kevin forgave him. Weren't prophets supposed to be protected by arch angels? There was no reason for Sam to believe Kevin wouldn't be protected. I know that is a stretch but we were given little to no information on Sam's mindset. His character didn't get a lovely montage as Dean got in S6. We didn't even know Sam was soulless for what 6-7 episodes. It's hard to pin down the motivations of a character when you don't get much of a story.
Sam trusted Dean that is why he said yes in the church and yes in the hospital. Right now he feels that trust has been betrayed. Even Dean knew that he was doing something wrong which is why he lied about it. And yes essentially Gadreel was holding Sam hostage. But Dean knew what the possession was doing to Sam. It was a huge gamble that Kevin lost.
I really don't think that this is about keeping score on which brother did what how many times to who. We could go around and around for eternity. We have 9 years of ammunition. Perspectives are different depending on which brother you sympathize with. Neither brother is all good and right or all evil and wrong.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 08:59
Prix how was it laid to rest in FTBYAM and TE? I don't get the connection.
I don't believe it was stated anywhere that Cas pulled Sam out of the cage soulless on purpose. On the contrary in TMWWBK Cas was trying to reward Dean with bringing Sam back to him. If you remember the scene under the lamp Cas was confused when Sam walked away..and yes Sam forgave Cas for what he did because Sam knew he made globally destructive choices as well.
There was no indication from Sam that he forgave Meg for anything. They were working together to find the angel tablets. As Sam said to Meg "you haven't been the most trustworthy person in our lives". But you might be right since Sam is forgiving in nature.
What Sam said to Dean was true for Sam. He knew that his words hurt Dean and it hurt him to say them. And yes Sam apologized to Kevin and Kevin forgave him. Weren't prophets supposed to be protected by arch angels? There was no reason for Sam to believe Kevin wouldn't be protected. I know that is a stretch but we were given little to no information on Sam's mindset. His character didn't get a lovely montage as Dean got in S6. We didn't even know Sam was soulless for what 6-7 episodes. It's hard to pin down the motivations of a character when you don't get much of a story.
Sam trusted Dean that is why he said yes in the church and yes in the hospital. Right now he feels that trust has been betrayed. Even Dean knew that he was doing something wrong which is why he lied about it. And yes essentially Gadreel was holding Sam hostage. But Dean knew what the possession was doing to Sam. It was a huge gamble that Kevin lost.
I really don't think that this is about keeping score on which brother did what how many times to who. We could go around and around for eternity. We have 9 years of ammunition. Perspectives are different depending on which brother you sympathize with. Neither brother is all good and right or all evil and wrong.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-16 10:36
Prix, neither brother has the monopoly on self-righteousn ess or inconsistency I'm afraid.

Working with or talking to Meg does not constitutes forgiveness or 'no hard feelings'. This extract from Goodbye Stranger shows that it was purely practical:

"DEAN
You really think we can trust, uh, Meg-stiel?
SAM
No. But what choice do we have?"

Sam did forgive Cas but it wasn't straight away. Sam reached out to Cas first in 7.01, but that was as much about saving the world from Godstiel as it was anything personal. It took two seasons, Cas taking on Sam's hallucinations and an apology from Cas before the hug in Season 9.

I've no doubt Sam will forgive Dean in time, as long as Dean realises he cannot do the same again. Dean has yet to even apologise.

Sam does take responsibility for his choices when he SHOULD admit fault. I give you two excerpts from Season 5, when Sam had the most to feel responsible for:

Good God Y'All

SAM
... Thing is, the problem's not the demon blood, not really. I mean, I, what I did, I can't blame the blood or Ruby or...anything. The problem's me. How far I'll go. There's something in me that...scares the hell out of me...

Sam Interrupted:

SAM: ... I blame Ruby or the demon blood, but it's not their fault. It's not them. It's me. It's inside me. I'm mad...all the time...and I don't know why.

I don't think Sam SHOULD feel responsible for being possessed by Gadreel. He said yes to a plan from the person he trusted most in the world, his brother Dean. So perhaps Sam was wrong to trust his brother, but that reflects badly on DEAN, not on Sam. It would only reflect badly on Sam if Sam allowed Dean to get away with it a second time.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-16 10:36
Prix, neither brother has the monopoly on self-righteousn ess or inconsistency I'm afraid.

Working with or talking to Meg does not constitutes forgiveness or 'no hard feelings'. This extract from Goodbye Stranger shows that it was purely practical:

"DEAN
You really think we can trust, uh, Meg-stiel?
SAM
No. But what choice do we have?"

Sam did forgive Cas but it wasn't straight away. Sam reached out to Cas first in 7.01, but that was as much about saving the world from Godstiel as it was anything personal. It took two seasons, Cas taking on Sam's hallucinations and an apology from Cas before the hug in Season 9.

I've no doubt Sam will forgive Dean in time, as long as Dean realises he cannot do the same again. Dean has yet to even apologise.

Sam does take responsibility for his choices when he SHOULD admit fault. I give you two excerpts from Season 5, when Sam had the most to feel responsible for:

Good God Y'All

SAM
... Thing is, the problem's not the demon blood, not really. I mean, I, what I did, I can't blame the blood or Ruby or...anything. The problem's me. How far I'll go. There's something in me that...scares the hell out of me...

Sam Interrupted:

SAM: ... I blame Ruby or the demon blood, but it's not their fault. It's not them. It's me. It's inside me. I'm mad...all the time...and I don't know why.

I don't think Sam SHOULD feel responsible for being possessed by Gadreel. He said yes to a plan from the person he trusted most in the world, his brother Dean. So perhaps Sam was wrong to trust his brother, but that reflects badly on DEAN, not on Sam. It would only reflect badly on Sam if Sam allowed Dean to get away with it a second time.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-16 17:04
#6 At the end of FTBYAM when Dean and Cas are riding together in the car and Cas asks how Dean is doing without his brother. In TE his first answer to Sam when Sam wants to hunt together again is no. Sam actually brought up the idea that Cas pulled him from the cage without his soul on purpose and I think it was correct. It would have served Cas's purposes at the time. Sam never felt it necessary to confront Cas with that truth at any time.

Sam did say that Meg wasn't reliable but he never felt any need to express any truth to her either. Meg even brought up the possession during "Goodbye Stranger"

Sam said any hunter worth his salt would put a hunter on the tail of a monster who was claiming to have changed. (paraphrasing) but that has not been done before or since, to my knowledge.

I agree we have 9 years of ammunition against both brothers but I don't think Dean should be crucified for making a decision he thought was best at the time and sticking with it to keep Sam alive. What Sam really wanted in 9.01 is ambiguous at least to me. Sam can and should be pissed about the way Dean went about keeping him alive but Sam has gone way above and beyond that. That's where the self righteousness comes into play. Sam believes his morales and beliefs are superior to everyone else's at any given time. Life is a gift and yes he went through a couple of difficult months but now Sam is healthy and alive to help put everything right. Not all bad.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-16 17:04
#6 At the end of FTBYAM when Dean and Cas are riding together in the car and Cas asks how Dean is doing without his brother. In TE his first answer to Sam when Sam wants to hunt together again is no. Sam actually brought up the idea that Cas pulled him from the cage without his soul on purpose and I think it was correct. It would have served Cas's purposes at the time. Sam never felt it necessary to confront Cas with that truth at any time.

Sam did say that Meg wasn't reliable but he never felt any need to express any truth to her either. Meg even brought up the possession during "Goodbye Stranger"

Sam said any hunter worth his salt would put a hunter on the tail of a monster who was claiming to have changed. (paraphrasing) but that has not been done before or since, to my knowledge.

I agree we have 9 years of ammunition against both brothers but I don't think Dean should be crucified for making a decision he thought was best at the time and sticking with it to keep Sam alive. What Sam really wanted in 9.01 is ambiguous at least to me. Sam can and should be pissed about the way Dean went about keeping him alive but Sam has gone way above and beyond that. That's where the self righteousness comes into play. Sam believes his morales and beliefs are superior to everyone else's at any given time. Life is a gift and yes he went through a couple of difficult months but now Sam is healthy and alive to help put everything right. Not all bad.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-16 17:46
Quoting Prix68:
Sam believes his morales and beliefs are superior to everyone else's at any given time.


I don't see how you get that from Sam standing up for himself in this circumstance. I think you need more evidence to make such a sweeping assertion.

Yes, Sam argues with Dean about morals and quite rightly so. We all need checks and balances, even when dealing with everyday ethics and morals.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-16 17:46
Quote:
Sam believes his morales and beliefs are superior to everyone else's at any given time.
I don't see how you get that from Sam standing up for himself in this circumstance. I think you need more evidence to make such a sweeping assertion.

Yes, Sam argues with Dean about morals and quite rightly so. We all need checks and balances, even when dealing with everyday ethics and morals.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 18:25
Prix68 Sam didn't want to die but when it became clear that he was going to he stated very clearly to Death that he didn't want his death to be reversed because "no one else gets hurt because of me". That is the whole problem with this situation with what Dean did. Kevin died. By Sam's hand. Burned in Sam's brain forever. Kevin died. The one thing that Sam never wanted to have happen happened. Yes Sam has every right to be angry. Way angrier than he has shown so far. Any words that Sam says to Dean pales in comparison to Kevin's death. Dean heard what Sam said to Death. That is why he was in a panic to save Sam. That is why Dean didn't think it through. As Dean said what was happening to Sam messed him up so he made a call. It cost everyone huge. What is troubling is the fact that Dean said he would do it again, knowing the outcome, knowing Kevin would die, as long as Sam was alive it was worth the price. Sam doesn't see it that way. More than anything he did not want to cause anyone else harm. Sam's morals and beliefs are his not Dean's or anyone else's. He told Dean he wouldn't save Dean same circumstances. He knows what it means to be possessed Dean does not. Sam did not leave. He is still there. He said something was broken. It needs to fixed. The ball is in Dean's court now.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 18:25
Prix68 Sam didn't want to die but when it became clear that he was going to he stated very clearly to Death that he didn't want his death to be reversed because "no one else gets hurt because of me". That is the whole problem with this situation with what Dean did. Kevin died. By Sam's hand. Burned in Sam's brain forever. Kevin died. The one thing that Sam never wanted to have happen happened. Yes Sam has every right to be angry. Way angrier than he has shown so far. Any words that Sam says to Dean pales in comparison to Kevin's death. Dean heard what Sam said to Death. That is why he was in a panic to save Sam. That is why Dean didn't think it through. As Dean said what was happening to Sam messed him up so he made a call. It cost everyone huge. What is troubling is the fact that Dean said he would do it again, knowing the outcome, knowing Kevin would die, as long as Sam was alive it was worth the price. Sam doesn't see it that way. More than anything he did not want to cause anyone else harm. Sam's morals and beliefs are his not Dean's or anyone else's. He told Dean he wouldn't save Dean same circumstances. He knows what it means to be possessed Dean does not. Sam did not leave. He is still there. He said something was broken. It needs to fixed. The ball is in Dean's court now.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 18:56
If you are referring to Sam saying yes to Dean. Why wouldn't he? What would lead Sam to believe that Dean would do something that he knew Sam would never agree to. Dean knew as he told Zeke/Gad that Sam would never agree to possession he would rather die. That was why they needed to trick Sam into saying yes. The look on Sam's face when Dean morphed into Zeke/Gad was one of shock. He didn't know what the hell was going on. Dean and Zeke/Gad kept the truth from him because they both knew Sam would eject the angel in a heartbeat. That was why Dean looked so heartsick. He was getting in deeper and deeper and already he wasn't seeing a clear way out. And of course in true screw the Winchester's fashion it all went south.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-16 18:56
If you are referring to Sam saying yes to Dean. Why wouldn't he? What would lead Sam to believe that Dean would do something that he knew Sam would never agree to. Dean knew as he told Zeke/Gad that Sam would never agree to possession he would rather die. That was why they needed to trick Sam into saying yes. The look on Sam's face when Dean morphed into Zeke/Gad was one of shock. He didn't know what the hell was going on. Dean and Zeke/Gad kept the truth from him because they both knew Sam would eject the angel in a heartbeat. That was why Dean looked so heartsick. He was getting in deeper and deeper and already he wasn't seeing a clear way out. And of course in true screw the Winchester's fashion it all went south.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-16 19:04
Cheryl, that was perfectly stated. Thank you.

What Dean did to Sam is worse than Sam's harsh words, IMO, so I forgive Sam's too broad statements. He's hurt and angry and over the top. To me, he was obviously talking about the Gadreel possession, not their whole life, even if he came across that way.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-16 19:04
Cheryl, that was perfectly stated. Thank you.

What Dean did to Sam is worse than Sam's harsh words, IMO, so I forgive Sam's too broad statements. He's hurt and angry and over the top. To me, he was obviously talking about the Gadreel possession, not their whole life, even if he came across that way.
Lkeke35
# Lkeke35 2014-02-16 22:09
1-12: you guys are so good. This has all been very eloquently stated by all of you. Oddly I don't fault Dean for taking that leap of faith that Gadreel was a good guy. Under the same circumstances I probably would too. It's what Dean did afterwards that I feel most people have a problem with. The lying and deception afterwards is my biggest problem. Dean took the gamble but it was Kevin and all the others Gadreel killed who lost and Dean still has what he originally wanted- his brother back. I think that's what's behind Sams statement about Dean not making a sacrifice. Dean has but there are whole swathes of Deans life that Sam still doesn't know about. Given what he knows about Dean he's stating what he thinks is true.
Lkeke35
# Lkeke35 2014-02-16 22:09
1-12: you guys are so good. This has all been very eloquently stated by all of you. Oddly I don't fault Dean for taking that leap of faith that Gadreel was a good guy. Under the same circumstances I probably would too. It's what Dean did afterwards that I feel most people have a problem with. The lying and deception afterwards is my biggest problem. Dean took the gamble but it was Kevin and all the others Gadreel killed who lost and Dean still has what he originally wanted- his brother back. I think that's what's behind Sams statement about Dean not making a sacrifice. Dean has but there are whole swathes of Deans life that Sam still doesn't know about. Given what he knows about Dean he's stating what he thinks is true.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-17 02:37
Quoting Prix68:
#6 At the end of FTBYAM when Dean and Cas are riding together in the car and Cas asks how Dean is doing without his brother. In TE his first answer to Sam when Sam wants to hunt together again is no. Sam actually brought up the idea that Cas pulled him from the cage without his soul on purpose and I think it was correct. It would have served Cas's purposes at the time. Sam never felt it necessary to confront Cas with that truth at any time.

Sam did say that Meg wasn't reliable but he never felt any need to express any truth to her either. Meg even brought up the possession during "Goodbye Stranger"

Sam said any hunter worth his salt would put a hunter on the tail of a monster who was claiming to have changed. (paraphrasing) but that has not been done before or since, to my knowledge.

I agree we have 9 years of ammunition against both brothers but I don't think Dean should be crucified for making a decision he thought was best at the time and sticking with it to keep Sam alive. What Sam really wanted in 9.01 is ambiguous at least to me. Sam can and should be pissed about the way Dean went about keeping him alive but Sam has gone way above and beyond that. That's where the self righteousness comes into play. Sam believes his morales and beliefs are superior to everyone else's at any given time. Life is a gift and yes he went through a couple of difficult months but now Sam is healthy and alive to help put everything right. Not all bad.

I do not think self righteousness has come into it all . Sam has morales but it is not like he hammers them home to people ,and I find little self righteousness in his words to Dean .

Sam made it clear what he wanted to Death and it as not been hard for either Dean or fans to know what he meant. Dean's gift of life was Sam's worst nightmare I fail to see how that is not hard to understand.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-17 02:37
Quote:
#6 At the end of FTBYAM when Dean and Cas are riding together in the car and Cas asks how Dean is doing without his brother. In TE his first answer to Sam when Sam wants to hunt together again is no. Sam actually brought up the idea that Cas pulled him from the cage without his soul on purpose and I think it was correct. It would have served Cas's purposes at the time. Sam never felt it necessary to confront Cas with that truth at any time.

Sam did say that Meg wasn't reliable but he never felt any need to express any truth to her either. Meg even brought up the possession during "Goodbye Stranger"

Sam said any hunter worth his salt would put a hunter on the tail of a monster who was claiming to have changed. (paraphrasing) but that has not been done before or since, to my knowledge.

I agree we have 9 years of ammunition against both brothers but I don't think Dean should be crucified for making a decision he thought was best at the time and sticking with it to keep Sam alive. What Sam really wanted in 9.01 is ambiguous at least to me. Sam can and should be pissed about the way Dean went about keeping him alive but Sam has gone way above and beyond that. That's where the self righteousness comes into play. Sam believes his morales and beliefs are superior to everyone else's at any given time. Life is a gift and yes he went through a couple of difficult months but now Sam is healthy and alive to help put everything right. Not all bad.
I do not think self righteousness has come into it all . Sam has morales but it is not like he hammers them home to people ,and I find little self righteousness in his words to Dean .

Sam made it clear what he wanted to Death and it as not been hard for either Dean or fans to know what he meant. Dean's gift of life was Sam's worst nightmare I fail to see how that is not hard to understand.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 06:35
Another problem I have with how all this went down this season was why we were shown Sam having a choice about whether he lived or died when Death came to reap him. In past canon the only choice you had when a reaper came was to go or become a ghost. Are they saying Sam was more worthy then Bobby so he was given a choice or was that a clue that it really wasn't Death?

Several lives were saved because of the possession, Charlie and Cas, the girl hunter and actually Dean was saved from Abbadon and of course Sam lived. Metatron was the cause of Kevin and the other two angels dying and I believe he would have accomplished that goal with or without Gadreel's help. At this point Sam is not remembering who was saved I guess.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 06:35
Another problem I have with how all this went down this season was why we were shown Sam having a choice about whether he lived or died when Death came to reap him. In past canon the only choice you had when a reaper came was to go or become a ghost. Are they saying Sam was more worthy then Bobby so he was given a choice or was that a clue that it really wasn't Death?

Several lives were saved because of the possession, Charlie and Cas, the girl hunter and actually Dean was saved from Abbadon and of course Sam lived. Metatron was the cause of Kevin and the other two angels dying and I believe he would have accomplished that goal with or without Gadreel's help. At this point Sam is not remembering who was saved I guess.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-17 08:01
Hi Prix, I had this discussion with someone else. I think it had to do with the life support machines. They were keeping Sam's body alive, so Sam's soul had a choice to stay in it or move on right away.

My mum worked in a residential home for the elderly, and two of my nurses are cousins. They always talk about how elderly or sick people would hang on for some important event, like the birth of a grandchild, and then after that they would 'allow' themselves to die.

It's all very interesting. Obviously people don't have a choice of whether to live or die as such. But it does seem that people can occasionally choose to hang in there a little longer. In Sam's case, I guess he had no reason to hang on until Gad!Dean came along with a plan.

As for who lived or died, that is irrelevant. Sam has rights as an autonomous person, and his rights were violated. And as Cas said, the ends don't justify the means.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-17 08:01
Hi Prix, I had this discussion with someone else. I think it had to do with the life support machines. They were keeping Sam's body alive, so Sam's soul had a choice to stay in it or move on right away.

My mum worked in a residential home for the elderly, and two of my nurses are cousins. They always talk about how elderly or sick people would hang on for some important event, like the birth of a grandchild, and then after that they would 'allow' themselves to die.

It's all very interesting. Obviously people don't have a choice of whether to live or die as such. But it does seem that people can occasionally choose to hang in there a little longer. In Sam's case, I guess he had no reason to hang on until Gad!Dean came along with a plan.

As for who lived or died, that is irrelevant. Sam has rights as an autonomous person, and his rights were violated. And as Cas said, the ends don't justify the means.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 09:29
If Sam had died who knows what would have become of Dean. Would he have killed himself? Would he have abandoned the bunker? Would he have sought out Cas and set him on a different course? The story would have been very different and these people might have never needed saving.
Death never said that it was Sam's choice to live or die. He just said it was his choice to go or stay. Since he chose to stay we don't know what would have happened if Dean hadn't had a plan.
I think that Metatron couldn't get into the bunker that is why he needed Gadreels help. So would Kevin had died anyway? Hard to say. But one thing that is certain it wouldn't have been Sam's hand that killed him.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 09:29
If Sam had died who knows what would have become of Dean. Would he have killed himself? Would he have abandoned the bunker? Would he have sought out Cas and set him on a different course? The story would have been very different and these people might have never needed saving.
Death never said that it was Sam's choice to live or die. He just said it was his choice to go or stay. Since he chose to stay we don't know what would have happened if Dean hadn't had a plan.
I think that Metatron couldn't get into the bunker that is why he needed Gadreels help. So would Kevin had died anyway? Hard to say. But one thing that is certain it wouldn't have been Sam's hand that killed him.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 11:32
Quoting Prix68:
Another problem I have with how all this went down this season was why we were shown Sam having a choice about whether he lived or died when Death came to reap him. In past canon the only choice you had when a reaper came was to go or become a ghost. Are they saying Sam was more worthy then Bobby so he was given a choice or was that a clue that it really wasn't Death?

Several lives were saved because of the possession, Charlie and Cas, the girl hunter and actually Dean was saved from Abbadon and of course Sam lived. Metatron was the cause of Kevin and the other two angels dying and I believe he would have accomplished that goal with or without Gadreel's help. At this point Sam is not remembering who was saved I guess.
I think the fact that death came to reap him makes him more worthy and the fact that Death gave him a choice may be because he is/was a heavy lifter in the spn universe and I think he is impressed with Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 11:32
Quote:
Another problem I have with how all this went down this season was why we were shown Sam having a choice about whether he lived or died when Death came to reap him. In past canon the only choice you had when a reaper came was to go or become a ghost. Are they saying Sam was more worthy then Bobby so he was given a choice or was that a clue that it really wasn't Death?

Several lives were saved because of the possession, Charlie and Cas, the girl hunter and actually Dean was saved from Abbadon and of course Sam lived. Metatron was the cause of Kevin and the other two angels dying and I believe he would have accomplished that goal with or without Gadreel's help. At this point Sam is not remembering who was saved I guess.
I think the fact that death came to reap him makes him more worthy and the fact that Death gave him a choice may be because he is/was a heavy lifter in the spn universe and I think he is impressed with Sam.
The Fourth Crow
# The Fourth Crow 2014-02-17 12:07
Prix, I think an example from philosophy might explain our different viewpoints here. You are evaluating Dean's action in having Sam possessed from Bentham's Utilitarian point of view, whereas I'm looking at it from a more Kantian point of view.

"Jeremy Bentham ... believes that an act is considered “just” if it generates the most happiness and the least pain for the greatest number of people affected directly or indirectly by that action."

http://catchharmin.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/utilitarianism-vs-kantian-ethics/

The trouble is, if you take Utilitarianism to an extreme you can use it to justify killing one healthy person to use their organs to save 5 sick people.

Kant on the other hand holds that an action is either “just” or “unjust” without any regard to the consequences of that same action. To Kant, killing someone innocent is wrong, even if it saves several other people. Personally I'm with Kant on this.

Now, neither position is perfect and I personally try to think about each case individually. But since Dean had no way of knowing whether the outcome of the possession would be good or bad, in this case I would stick to a Kantian perspective and say that taking away Sam's right to choose was wrong.

(To those of you who have studied philosophy more recently than me, feel free to correct any mistakes/oversi mplifications :) )
The Fourth Crow
# The Fourth Crow 2014-02-17 12:07
Prix, I think an example from philosophy might explain our different viewpoints here. You are evaluating Dean's action in having Sam possessed from Bentham's Utilitarian point of view, whereas I'm looking at it from a more Kantian point of view.

"Jeremy Bentham ... believes that an act is considered “just” if it generates the most happiness and the least pain for the greatest number of people affected directly or indirectly by that action."

http://catchharmin.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/utilitarianism-vs-kantian-ethics/

The trouble is, if you take Utilitarianism to an extreme you can use it to justify killing one healthy person to use their organs to save 5 sick people.

Kant on the other hand holds that an action is either “just” or “unjust” without any regard to the consequences of that same action. To Kant, killing someone innocent is wrong, even if it saves several other people. Personally I'm with Kant on this.

Now, neither position is perfect and I personally try to think about each case individually. But since Dean had no way of knowing whether the outcome of the possession would be good or bad, in this case I would stick to a Kantian perspective and say that taking away Sam's right to choose was wrong.

(To those of you who have studied philosophy more recently than me, feel free to correct any mistakes/oversi mplifications :) )
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-17 12:32
"Several lives were saved because of the possession"

Prix, several lives were saved as well by Sam drinking demon blood and using his powers: That whole town that Uriel wanted to destroy, Dean, Cas. etc. It doesn't excuse what Sam did or make it right IMO.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-17 12:32
"Several lives were saved because of the possession"

Prix, several lives were saved as well by Sam drinking demon blood and using his powers: That whole town that Uriel wanted to destroy, Dean, Cas. etc. It doesn't excuse what Sam did or make it right IMO.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 13:09
#19 Actually I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that the outcome of Dean's choice was not all bad. I actually believe Dean should have let Sam die but that was not really an option in a show about two brothers.

As far as your philosophy goes it would be a matter of opinion whether what Dean did was just or unjust or if Sam really wasn't making a choice when he said yes to Dean's plan. Which we have all discussed to death and I personally don't want to get into again.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 13:09
#19 Actually I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that the outcome of Dean's choice was not all bad. I actually believe Dean should have let Sam die but that was not really an option in a show about two brothers.

As far as your philosophy goes it would be a matter of opinion whether what Dean did was just or unjust or if Sam really wasn't making a choice when he said yes to Dean's plan. Which we have all discussed to death and I personally don't want to get into again.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 13:17
Like I said we have 9 years of ammunition to lob at both brothers. The story will unfold and there will be redemption, reunion, forgiveness and hopefully maturity (without breaking the bond of course). I personally love Dean even if I don't get his motivations sometimes. So a pro-brother discussion would be very entertaining for me. I know a lot of fans think that Dean's character gets the lions share of the story but that doesn't make him any easier to understand.
Dean's face at the end of TP was absolutely devastated. What do you think was going through his mind then? Do you think like a lot of fans and reviewers that Sam just said not only are we not brothers but I don't love you enough to save you? If so where do you think he is going to go from here? Will he go so dark that even Sam might not be able to pull him out? Will he have to make another no win choice? Any thoughts or theories??
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 13:17
Like I said we have 9 years of ammunition to lob at both brothers. The story will unfold and there will be redemption, reunion, forgiveness and hopefully maturity (without breaking the bond of course). I personally love Dean even if I don't get his motivations sometimes. So a pro-brother discussion would be very entertaining for me. I know a lot of fans think that Dean's character gets the lions share of the story but that doesn't make him any easier to understand.
Dean's face at the end of TP was absolutely devastated. What do you think was going through his mind then? Do you think like a lot of fans and reviewers that Sam just said not only are we not brothers but I don't love you enough to save you? If so where do you think he is going to go from here? Will he go so dark that even Sam might not be able to pull him out? Will he have to make another no win choice? Any thoughts or theories??
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 13:20
unnecessary post
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 13:20
unnecessary post
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-17 13:37
Quoting Prix68:

Sam really wasn't making a choice when he said yes to Dean's plan. Which we have all discussed to death and I personally don't want to get into again.


Sam was definitely making a choice, but it was an uninformed choice, based on his unfounded trust in Dean.

Fair enough, agree to disagree.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-17 13:37
Quote:

Sam really wasn't making a choice when he said yes to Dean's plan. Which we have all discussed to death and I personally don't want to get into again.
Sam was definitely making a choice, but it was an uninformed choice, based on his unfounded trust in Dean.

Fair enough, agree to disagree.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 15:06
By the way Prix68 I think I owe you an apology. I've been going over some of my posts and it looks like I'm stalking you. You make valid points. I hope that I didn't come off disrespectful to your opinions. Sometimes I get a little caught up in the moment. I will watch what I post in the future.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 15:06
By the way Prix68 I think I owe you an apology. I've been going over some of my posts and it looks like I'm stalking you. You make valid points. I hope that I didn't come off disrespectful to your opinions. Sometimes I get a little caught up in the moment. I will watch what I post in the future.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 15:20
#25 I have absolutely no problem with you or your posts or that they follow mine. Please don't watch what you post on my account. We're all caught up in this show or we wouldn't be here. Lol
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 15:20
#25 I have absolutely no problem with you or your posts or that they follow mine. Please don't watch what you post on my account. We're all caught up in this show or we wouldn't be here. Lol
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 16:20
Quoting Prix68:
#19 Actually I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that the outcome of Dean's choice was not all bad. I actually believe Dean should have let Sam die but that was not really an option in a show about two brothers.

As far as your philosophy goes it would be a matter of opinion whether what Dean did was just or unjust or if Sam really wasn't making a choice when he said yes to Dean's plan. Which we have all discussed to death and I personally don't want to get into again.
Not really.Dean does not have to make a deal so that Sam will be in the show.It is just that the writers chose that way.There are instances where there has been no deal made but people were brought back in to the show..eg..dean and adam.So even if Dean had not made the deal our talented writers could definitely find a way to get Sam back.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 16:20
Quote:
#19 Actually I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that the outcome of Dean's choice was not all bad. I actually believe Dean should have let Sam die but that was not really an option in a show about two brothers.

As far as your philosophy goes it would be a matter of opinion whether what Dean did was just or unjust or if Sam really wasn't making a choice when he said yes to Dean's plan. Which we have all discussed to death and I personally don't want to get into again.
Not really.Dean does not have to make a deal so that Sam will be in the show.It is just that the writers chose that way.There are instances where there has been no deal made but people were brought back in to the show..eg..dean and adam.So even if Dean had not made the deal our talented writers could definitely find a way to get Sam back.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 17:17
#27 The writers did write this episode and they did make this Dean's only real choice because they can't kill off one of the brothers. Are you now arguing that Dean could make a choice the writers didn't want? They could have written Sam just needed bed rest after the trials. My point is I knew that Dean was being set up to make a decision that was going to be seen as wrong either way.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-17 17:17
#27 The writers did write this episode and they did make this Dean's only real choice because they can't kill off one of the brothers. Are you now arguing that Dean could make a choice the writers didn't want? They could have written Sam just needed bed rest after the trials. My point is I knew that Dean was being set up to make a decision that was going to be seen as wrong either way.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 17:43
I think that was the point. The writers wanted to put Dean into a no win situation. No matter what Dean decided to do he was going to lose his brother. Either physically or emotionally. They needed for Dean to go to a very dark place. That is what is intriguing to me going forward. A very dark and dangerous Dean. My only quibble with Dean's story so far is he was hell bent for leather to find and kill Gadreel then boom he's Crowley's bitch? That wasn't very smoothly told. But still the mark of Cain is going to be Dean's cross to bare the rest of the season. I wish they would get to it already.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-17 17:43
I think that was the point. The writers wanted to put Dean into a no win situation. No matter what Dean decided to do he was going to lose his brother. Either physically or emotionally. They needed for Dean to go to a very dark place. That is what is intriguing to me going forward. A very dark and dangerous Dean. My only quibble with Dean's story so far is he was hell bent for leather to find and kill Gadreel then boom he's Crowley's bitch? That wasn't very smoothly told. But still the mark of Cain is going to be Dean's cross to bare the rest of the season. I wish they would get to it already.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 23:17
Quoting Prix68:
#27 The writers did write this episode and they did make this Dean's only real choice because they can't kill off one of the brothers. Are you now arguing that Dean could make a choice the writers didn't want? They could have written Sam just needed bed rest after the trials. My point is I knew that Dean was being set up to make a decision that was going to be seen as wrong either way.

Okay that was not my point.You said and I quoteQuote:
I actually believe Dean should have let Sam die but that was not really an option in a show about two brothers.
and what I mean by what I said was..If Dean did let Sam die it did not mean that there were ways to have Sam back in the show..so while you say having Dean not make a deal is not an option I am saying it is an option and that option does not mean Sam will stay dead.But if you are saying that somehow the brothers relation or the show about brothers requires Dean making deals or get his brother possessed by tricking him..well I don't think that way.I don't need Dean (or Sam) to make a Deal to know the strength of their bond.Dean had another choice of respecting Sam's wishes.But if not I would like to know why it is not an option in a show about two brothers.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 23:17
Quote:
#27 The writers did write this episode and they did make this Dean's only real choice because they can't kill off one of the brothers. Are you now arguing that Dean could make a choice the writers didn't want? They could have written Sam just needed bed rest after the trials. My point is I knew that Dean was being set up to make a decision that was going to be seen as wrong either way.
Okay that was not my point.You said and I quoteQuote:
I actually believe Dean should have let Sam die but that was not really an option in a show about two brothers.
and what I mean by what I said was..If Dean did let Sam die it did not mean that there were ways to have Sam back in the show..so while you say having Dean not make a deal is not an option I am saying it is an option and that option does not mean Sam will stay dead.But if you are saying that somehow the brothers relation or the show about brothers requires Dean making deals or get his brother possessed by tricking him..well I don't think that way.I don't need Dean (or Sam) to make a Deal to know the strength of their bond.Dean had another choice of respecting Sam's wishes.But if not I would like to know why it is not an option in a show about two brothers.
LisaY
# LisaY 2014-02-18 06:10
Death didn't come to reap Sam, that was all in Sam's head. Julian Richards (Death) confirmed that that he was playing Sam-Death, not the rwal Death.
LisaY
# LisaY 2014-02-18 06:10
Death didn't come to reap Sam, that was all in Sam's head. Julian Richards (Death) confirmed that that he was playing Sam-Death, not the rwal Death.
LisaY
# LisaY 2014-02-18 06:19
Elle, I agree about Sam's line that Dean only sacrifices when Dean isn't the one hurt; I wasn't on board with that line either. Nor was I on board with the Dean 'does more harm than good' line. Both aren't true. Dean has done a lot of good and has sacrificed and been hurt by those sacrifices over the years. I'm not sure how the show will explain why the Winchesters are still together in 9.14 because based on the past couple of episodes and their conversations, I don't see why they are together.
LisaY
# LisaY 2014-02-18 06:19
Elle, I agree about Sam's line that Dean only sacrifices when Dean isn't the one hurt; I wasn't on board with that line either. Nor was I on board with the Dean 'does more harm than good' line. Both aren't true. Dean has done a lot of good and has sacrificed and been hurt by those sacrifices over the years. I'm not sure how the show will explain why the Winchesters are still together in 9.14 because based on the past couple of episodes and their conversations, I don't see why they are together.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-18 07:44
#30 No, I'm saying the writers are pitting brother against brother for no other reason then it causes big responses by the fans. That it has a false ring to it. That it is more of the myth arc then the myth arc. It feels forced and not organic to the story or show. That for the second year in a row ep.1 started with a huge brother issue and I'm guessing like last year it will end with a bro moment in the last episode.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-18 07:44
#30 No, I'm saying the writers are pitting brother against brother for no other reason then it causes big responses by the fans. That it has a false ring to it. That it is more of the myth arc then the myth arc. It feels forced and not organic to the story or show. That for the second year in a row ep.1 started with a huge brother issue and I'm guessing like last year it will end with a bro moment in the last episode.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-18 11:00
Quoting LisaY:
Death didn't come to reap Sam, that was all in Sam's head. Julian Richards (Death) confirmed that that he was playing Sam-Death, not the rwal Death.

Julian Richards asserted that with wrong proof and he is not TPTB.As far as what was shown on the show it was Death who came to reap Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-18 11:00
Quote:
Death didn't come to reap Sam, that was all in Sam's head. Julian Richards (Death) confirmed that that he was playing Sam-Death, not the rwal Death.
Julian Richards asserted that with wrong proof and he is not TPTB.As far as what was shown on the show it was Death who came to reap Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-18 11:01
Quoting Prix68:
#30 No, I'm saying the writers are pitting brother against brother for no other reason then it causes big responses by the fans. That it has a false ring to it. That it is more of the myth arc then the myth arc. It feels forced and not organic to the story or show. That for the second year in a row ep.1 started with a huge brother issue and I'm guessing like last year it will end with a bro moment in the last episode.

For me it feels organic and i am liking how the issue is being handled.Agree to disagree then.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-18 11:01
Quote:
#30 No, I'm saying the writers are pitting brother against brother for no other reason then it causes big responses by the fans. That it has a false ring to it. That it is more of the myth arc then the myth arc. It feels forced and not organic to the story or show. That for the second year in a row ep.1 started with a huge brother issue and I'm guessing like last year it will end with a bro moment in the last episode.
For me it feels organic and i am liking how the issue is being handled.Agree to disagree then.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-18 12:37
Quoting LisaY:
Elle, I agree about Sam's line that Dean only sacrifices when Dean isn't the one hurt; I wasn't on board with that line either. Nor was I on board with the Dean 'does more harm than good' line. Both aren't true. Dean has done a lot of good and has sacrificed and been hurt by those sacrifices over the years. I'm not sure how the show will explain why the Winchesters are still together in 9.14 because based on the past couple of episodes and their conversations, I don't see why they are together.


LisaY, what Sam said was all true in the context of the Gadreel possession, which is still fresh in his mind. Sam is saying that Dean sacrificed him and Sam was the one hurt. In that case he did more harm (to Sam) than good.

In Death's case, Julian R. never confirmed anything. If I remember, he said that he was playing it like he was there and wasn't there… On screen, it was clear that "Dean" and "Bobby" were in Sam's mind, but not Death. And why would Sam have asked Death to make sure he couldn't be brought back if it weren't the real Death?
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-18 12:37
Quote:
Elle, I agree about Sam's line that Dean only sacrifices when Dean isn't the one hurt; I wasn't on board with that line either. Nor was I on board with the Dean 'does more harm than good' line. Both aren't true. Dean has done a lot of good and has sacrificed and been hurt by those sacrifices over the years. I'm not sure how the show will explain why the Winchesters are still together in 9.14 because based on the past couple of episodes and their conversations, I don't see why they are together.
LisaY, what Sam said was all true in the context of the Gadreel possession, which is still fresh in his mind. Sam is saying that Dean sacrificed him and Sam was the one hurt. In that case he did more harm (to Sam) than good.

In Death's case, Julian R. never confirmed anything. If I remember, he said that he was playing it like he was there and wasn't there… On screen, it was clear that "Dean" and "Bobby" were in Sam's mind, but not Death. And why would Sam have asked Death to make sure he couldn't be brought back if it weren't the real Death?
E
# E 2014-02-18 14:47
Quoting LisaY:
Death didn't come to reap Sam, that was all in Sam's head. Julian Richards (Death) confirmed that that he was playing Sam-Death, not the rwal Death.


If Death wasn't there to reap Sam and it was all in his head as you say, then Dean had zero reason to make any kind of a deal with Gadreel. Dramatically it makes no sense whatsoever for Sam's impending death and the deal he was making with Death to be anything other than completely real. Otherwise Dean did what he did for nothing, which would make it even worse.
E
# E 2014-02-18 14:47
Quote:
Death didn't come to reap Sam, that was all in Sam's head. Julian Richards (Death) confirmed that that he was playing Sam-Death, not the rwal Death.
If Death wasn't there to reap Sam and it was all in his head as you say, then Dean had zero reason to make any kind of a deal with Gadreel. Dramatically it makes no sense whatsoever for Sam's impending death and the deal he was making with Death to be anything other than completely real. Otherwise Dean did what he did for nothing, which would make it even worse.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-18 15:00
Whether Death was there or not doesn't really matter. Sam was going to die. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, it was just a matter of time. Time just happened to run out when Gadreel was there. Now Dean did leave the room, did Gad do something to Sam to hurry the process? Gad was in a bad way. He might have needed Dean to let him possess Sam sooner rather than later. Did he manipulate Sam's dream so that he was accepting death just as Gad showed Dean how bad things were. It's hard to say. I am going with was shown. Death came to reap Sam. Dean was shown what Sam was about to do. Dean made the decision to save Sam by possession regardless of how they got there.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-18 15:00
Whether Death was there or not doesn't really matter. Sam was going to die. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, it was just a matter of time. Time just happened to run out when Gadreel was there. Now Dean did leave the room, did Gad do something to Sam to hurry the process? Gad was in a bad way. He might have needed Dean to let him possess Sam sooner rather than later. Did he manipulate Sam's dream so that he was accepting death just as Gad showed Dean how bad things were. It's hard to say. I am going with was shown. Death came to reap Sam. Dean was shown what Sam was about to do. Dean made the decision to save Sam by possession regardless of how they got there.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-18 16:26
Quoting cheryl42:
Whether Death was there or not doesn't really matter. Sam was going to die. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, it was just a matter of time. Time just happened to run out when Gadreel was there. Now Dean did leave the room, did Gad do something to Sam to hurry the process? Gad was in a bad way. He might have needed Dean to let him possess Sam sooner rather than later. Did he manipulate Sam's dream so that he was accepting death just as Gad showed Dean how bad things were. It's hard to say. I am going with was shown. Death came to reap Sam. Dean was shown what Sam was about to do. Dean made the decision to save Sam by possession regardless of how they got there.


This is exactly how I view the situation.

Quote:
. So maybe he doesn’t make good decisions in the moment, but that doesn’t mean they’re made. It means it’s a desperate moment choice, made by an overwhelmed, over-exhausted person driven by love
But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-18 16:26
Quote:
Whether Death was there or not doesn't really matter. Sam was going to die. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, it was just a matter of time. Time just happened to run out when Gadreel was there. Now Dean did leave the room, did Gad do something to Sam to hurry the process? Gad was in a bad way. He might have needed Dean to let him possess Sam sooner rather than later. Did he manipulate Sam's dream so that he was accepting death just as Gad showed Dean how bad things were. It's hard to say. I am going with was shown. Death came to reap Sam. Dean was shown what Sam was about to do. Dean made the decision to save Sam by possession regardless of how they got there.
This is exactly how I view the situation.

Quote:
. So maybe he doesn’t make good decisions in the moment, but that doesn’t mean they’re made. It means it’s a desperate moment choice, made by an overwhelmed, over-exhausted person driven by love
But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't.
E
# E 2014-02-18 18:06
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
. So maybe he doesn’t make good decisions in the moment, but that doesn’t mean they’re made. It means it’s a desperate moment choice, made by an overwhelmed, over-exhausted person driven by love


But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't.
I agree percysowner. I can understand the initial act and Dean's panic and desperation. But the continual lying is testament to the fact that Dean KNEW Sam would not allow the possession to continue and that he would have ended up dying anyway by ejecting Gad as soon as he understood what was going on. Because that's not what Dean wanted, he kept the information from Sam, basically forcing Sam to do what Dean wanted and not allowing Sam to make that decision for himself. He took Sam's free will away, and continued to do so over and over again by perpetuating the lie for months. He took away Kevin's ability to protect himself by lying to him also and basically lead the wolf directly into the hen house. And not only does he not see how much his actions have hurt Sam through the lack of trust, he actually has the gall to say he'd do it again. He'd pick some other innocent to kill to save Sam, he'd take away Sam's free will again, pretty much subject Sam to just about any torture if it serves Dean's desires for Sam to be alive at any cost, and Sam just can't deal with that. It's not worth it to him. I know that Dean's decisions and motivations come from love, but its destructive and dangerous IMO. And the thing that bothers me the most is that Dean has shown numerous times that he won't accept the situation in reverse. In Faith he was furious with Sam for inadvertently sacrificing an innocent to save him. He almost never recovered when John sacrifice himself to save Dean's life, he refused to use the body parts of innocent victims to keep himself alive in season 3's Time is on My Side; and condemned Sam pretty much all of season 4 and 5 for going to such lengths to get revenge for him. So, Dean won't allow Sam to do for him what he's done for Sam AND then he condemns Sam in The Purge for not being willing to do something Dean doesn't want him doing in the first place. Dean's thoughts are all over the map on this subject. They are completely inconstant and contradictory. He wants Sam to be willing to save him at any cost, yet he doesn't want Sam to save him at any cost as evidenced by repeated situations in his past. What is it that Dean wants exactly? I can't figure it out.
E
# E 2014-02-18 18:06
Quote:
Quote:
. So maybe he doesn’t make good decisions in the moment, but that doesn’t mean they’re made. It means it’s a desperate moment choice, made by an overwhelmed, over-exhausted person driven by love
But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't.
I agree percysowner. I can understand the initial act and Dean's panic and desperation. But the continual lying is testament to the fact that Dean KNEW Sam would not allow the possession to continue and that he would have ended up dying anyway by ejecting Gad as soon as he understood what was going on. Because that's not what Dean wanted, he kept the information from Sam, basically forcing Sam to do what Dean wanted and not allowing Sam to make that decision for himself. He took Sam's free will away, and continued to do so over and over again by perpetuating the lie for months. He took away Kevin's ability to protect himself by lying to him also and basically lead the wolf directly into the hen house. And not only does he not see how much his actions have hurt Sam through the lack of trust, he actually has the gall to say he'd do it again. He'd pick some other innocent to kill to save Sam, he'd take away Sam's free will again, pretty much subject Sam to just about any torture if it serves Dean's desires for Sam to be alive at any cost, and Sam just can't deal with that. It's not worth it to him. I know that Dean's decisions and motivations come from love, but its destructive and dangerous IMO. And the thing that bothers me the most is that Dean has shown numerous times that he won't accept the situation in reverse. In Faith he was furious with Sam for inadvertently sacrificing an innocent to save him. He almost never recovered when John sacrifice himself to save Dean's life, he refused to use the body parts of innocent victims to keep himself alive in season 3's Time is on My Side; and condemned Sam pretty much all of season 4 and 5 for going to such lengths to get revenge for him. So, Dean won't allow Sam to do for him what he's done for Sam AND then he condemns Sam in The Purge for not being willing to do something Dean doesn't want him doing in the first place. Dean's thoughts are all over the map on this subject. They are completely inconstant and contradictory. He wants Sam to be willing to save him at any cost, yet he doesn't want Sam to save him at any cost as evidenced by repeated situations in his past. What is it that Dean wants exactly? I can't figure it out.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 18:13
Quoting percysowner
"But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't."

But percysowner , Dean DID want to tell Sam about it, on more than one occasion he was going to and Gadreel said if you do, Sam will eject me and he will most likely die. Dean's first priority was keeping Sam alive at that time. Not deceiving Sam! Dean getting rest doesn't enter into it. Of course it was the wrong decision by Dean and subsequent events made it disastrous. I don't think deceiving Sam was something he ever intended when he was sitting by Sam's bedside.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 18:13
Quoting percysowner
"But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't."

But percysowner , Dean DID want to tell Sam about it, on more than one occasion he was going to and Gadreel said if you do, Sam will eject me and he will most likely die. Dean's first priority was keeping Sam alive at that time. Not deceiving Sam! Dean getting rest doesn't enter into it. Of course it was the wrong decision by Dean and subsequent events made it disastrous. I don't think deceiving Sam was something he ever intended when he was sitting by Sam's bedside.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-18 18:24
Quoting leah d:
Quoting percysowner
"But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't."

But percysowner , Dean DID want to tell Sam about it, on more than one occasion he was going to and Gadreel said if you do, Sam will eject me and he will most likely die. Dean's first priority was keeping Sam alive at that time. Not deceiving Sam! Dean getting rest doesn't enter into it. Of course it was the wrong decision by Dean and subsequent events made it disastrous. I don't think deceiving Sam was something he ever intended when he was sitting by Sam's bedside.


Yes, it is the whole point, Dean will only let Sam make a decision if Dean approves of it. If he thinks Sam is going to make one he doesn't like then he refuses to allow Sam to even KNOW there is a decision. He's treating Sam like an object who has no right to have a say in how his own body is used. The point of giving someone a choice is to actually let them CHOOSE, not make certain they don't even know there is a choice to be made.

If Gadreel had threatened to leave Sam if Sam found out MAYBE I could excuse what Dean did. But all Gadreel said was that SAM would chose something and Gadreel wouldn't be able to stop him.

I disapprove of Dean doing something he knew Sam didn't want, but I can excuse it due to immediate fear and panic. But to continue to allow Sam not have NO SAY in his OWN life is where it becomes a real issue. I don't care that Dean didn't want Sam to eject an angel, I care that Sam gets a say over his own life.

Unfortunately to me it comes off as Dean's first priority is making sure Sam does what Dean wants and controlling Sam against Sam's will.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-18 18:24
Quote:
Quoting percysowner
"But the ultimate decision wasn't made in the moment. Dean made it over and over every single day when he didn't tell Sam about "Zeke". Dean got sleep and rest and had the opportunity to give Sam a say in the matter and he didn't."

But percysowner , Dean DID want to tell Sam about it, on more than one occasion he was going to and Gadreel said if you do, Sam will eject me and he will most likely die. Dean's first priority was keeping Sam alive at that time. Not deceiving Sam! Dean getting rest doesn't enter into it. Of course it was the wrong decision by Dean and subsequent events made it disastrous. I don't think deceiving Sam was something he ever intended when he was sitting by Sam's bedside.
Yes, it is the whole point, Dean will only let Sam make a decision if Dean approves of it. If he thinks Sam is going to make one he doesn't like then he refuses to allow Sam to even KNOW there is a decision. He's treating Sam like an object who has no right to have a say in how his own body is used. The point of giving someone a choice is to actually let them CHOOSE, not make certain they don't even know there is a choice to be made.

If Gadreel had threatened to leave Sam if Sam found out MAYBE I could excuse what Dean did. But all Gadreel said was that SAM would chose something and Gadreel wouldn't be able to stop him.

I disapprove of Dean doing something he knew Sam didn't want, but I can excuse it due to immediate fear and panic. But to continue to allow Sam not have NO SAY in his OWN life is where it becomes a real issue. I don't care that Dean didn't want Sam to eject an angel, I care that Sam gets a say over his own life.

Unfortunately to me it comes off as Dean's first priority is making sure Sam does what Dean wants and controlling Sam against Sam's will.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 19:49
I completely disagree with your last statement. I don't think controlling Sam is Dean's priority at all. In fact I don't think he evens thinks about it half the time. He is doing (rightly or wrongly) what he has done all his life. Be a pushy, bossy big brother. This needs to change. Dean needs to change.

I am not defending Dean for his choices. He made all the wrong choices along the way (this season). I just don't see the dark motives you see in his every move. I am also not saying Sam shouldn't have a say in his own life. I did not say or imply that. I can agree to Sam needing to make his own decision and have control over his life and still feel that Dean's PRIMARY motives were not to deceive and control Sam. I can have two opposing thoughts in my head about this as I do try and see things from both perspectives.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 19:49
I completely disagree with your last statement. I don't think controlling Sam is Dean's priority at all. In fact I don't think he evens thinks about it half the time. He is doing (rightly or wrongly) what he has done all his life. Be a pushy, bossy big brother. This needs to change. Dean needs to change.

I am not defending Dean for his choices. He made all the wrong choices along the way (this season). I just don't see the dark motives you see in his every move. I am also not saying Sam shouldn't have a say in his own life. I did not say or imply that. I can agree to Sam needing to make his own decision and have control over his life and still feel that Dean's PRIMARY motives were not to deceive and control Sam. I can have two opposing thoughts in my head about this as I do try and see things from both perspectives.
E
# E 2014-02-18 20:59
I agree lead d, I don't think Dean has some nefarious motive in his desire to keep Sam alive at all costs; I think it's born of a desperate kind of love and a ragingly poor self image. But it IS a kind of control that Dean is exerting over Sam, because he does not trust Sam to make the decisions that Dean wants him to make, so he withholds information and makes the decision FOR Sam until Sam no longer has a choice. And, as the saying goes, the ends do not justify the means. Sam spent all of season 4 learning that lesson for letting Lucifer out of the cage, and being slaughtered by the fans for it too. It didn't seem to matter to anyone that Sam believed in what he was doing, that he was "trying to take this curse and make something good out of it" and no one, Dean especially cut him a break when it all went south on him. I don't see why Dean's motives should count now either, although Dean has always been given more sway by the fandom in that department than Sam. Yes, Dean was doing the best he could in terrible circumstances, but his decision went south on him. It would be nice to think that Dean was learning something from that situation, but his comment of "and I'd do it again" shows that he hasn't learned a thing, that he is willing to still sacrifice other people FOR Sam, which is goes against everything Sam believes in. If TPTB spend the rest of this season showing us how wrong Sam is to want equality, to want the decisions that they make to not have an adverse effect on those around them, to have Dean TRUST him, while at the same time showing us that Dean is right to do any and all things including the sacrifice of innocents to keep each either other alive, then I will never forgive them. I am dearly, dearly hoping that that is NOT the story that they are planning to tell. Do I want Sam to save Dean, absolutely!!! I want Sam to do anything humanly possible, fight until the ends of the earth, sacrifice his own life for Dean. Yes to all those things. Do I want Sam to betray his morals, slaughter an innocent victim, call upon supernatural powers, disturb the natural order, or utterly betray Dean's moral code to save him… no, I do not.
E
# E 2014-02-18 20:59
I agree lead d, I don't think Dean has some nefarious motive in his desire to keep Sam alive at all costs; I think it's born of a desperate kind of love and a ragingly poor self image. But it IS a kind of control that Dean is exerting over Sam, because he does not trust Sam to make the decisions that Dean wants him to make, so he withholds information and makes the decision FOR Sam until Sam no longer has a choice. And, as the saying goes, the ends do not justify the means. Sam spent all of season 4 learning that lesson for letting Lucifer out of the cage, and being slaughtered by the fans for it too. It didn't seem to matter to anyone that Sam believed in what he was doing, that he was "trying to take this curse and make something good out of it" and no one, Dean especially cut him a break when it all went south on him. I don't see why Dean's motives should count now either, although Dean has always been given more sway by the fandom in that department than Sam. Yes, Dean was doing the best he could in terrible circumstances, but his decision went south on him. It would be nice to think that Dean was learning something from that situation, but his comment of "and I'd do it again" shows that he hasn't learned a thing, that he is willing to still sacrifice other people FOR Sam, which is goes against everything Sam believes in. If TPTB spend the rest of this season showing us how wrong Sam is to want equality, to want the decisions that they make to not have an adverse effect on those around them, to have Dean TRUST him, while at the same time showing us that Dean is right to do any and all things including the sacrifice of innocents to keep each either other alive, then I will never forgive them. I am dearly, dearly hoping that that is NOT the story that they are planning to tell. Do I want Sam to save Dean, absolutely!!! I want Sam to do anything humanly possible, fight until the ends of the earth, sacrifice his own life for Dean. Yes to all those things. Do I want Sam to betray his morals, slaughter an innocent victim, call upon supernatural powers, disturb the natural order, or utterly betray Dean's moral code to save him… no, I do not.
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-18 21:05
Quoting leah d:
[Dean] is doing (rightly or wrongly) what he has done all his life. Be a pushy, bossy big brother. This needs to change. Dean needs to change.

I am not defending Dean for his choices. He made all the wrong choices along the way (this season).

I am also not saying Sam shouldn't have a say in his own life. I did not say or imply that. I can agree to Sam needing to make his own decision and have control over his life and still feel that Dean's PRIMARY motives were not to deceive and control Sam. I can have two opposing thoughts in my head about this as I do try and see things from both perspectives.


I agree with your interpretation Leah. I also don't believe that Dean does anything with bad intent, though, in fairness, being a bossy big brother means
being controlling pretty much by default.

I really hope that they are moving towards having Dean do things more deliberately and in a more reasoned way. I am hopeful they are simply by how badly the unreasoned, impulsive decision to take the mark of Cain is likely to backfire on him ... in any other season or on any other show it would, but you never know with this one ... and he and Sam (and I have NO idea what the show could possibly have planned for Sam, literally none) could come to a new understanding based on love and respect and (earned) hugs ;-)
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-18 21:05
[Dean] is doing (rightly or wrongly) what he has done all his life. Be a pushy, bossy big brother. This needs to change. Dean needs to change.

I am not defending Dean for his choices. He made all the wrong choices along the way (this season).

I am also not saying Sam shouldn't have a say in his own life. I did not say or imply that. I can agree to Sam needing to make his own decision and have control over his life and still feel that Dean's PRIMARY motives were not to deceive and control Sam. I can have two opposing thoughts in my head about this as I do try and see things from both perspectives.

I agree with your interpretation Leah. I also don't believe that Dean does anything with bad intent, though, in fairness, being a bossy big brother means
being controlling pretty much by default.

I really hope that they are moving towards having Dean do things more deliberately and in a more reasoned way. I am hopeful they are simply by how badly the unreasoned, impulsive decision to take the mark of Cain is likely to backfire on him ... in any other season or on any other show it would, but you never know with this one ... and he and Sam (and I have NO idea what the show could possibly have planned for Sam, literally none) could come to a new understanding based on love and respect and (earned) hugs ;-)
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-18 21:50
Quoting E:
If TPTB spend the rest of this season showing us how wrong Sam is to want equality, to want the decisions that they make to not have an adverse effect on those around them, to have Dean TRUST him, while at the same time showing us that Dean is right to do any and all things including the sacrifice of innocents to keep each either other alive, then I will never forgive them. I am dearly, dearly hoping that that is NOT the story that they are planning to tell. Do I want Sam to save Dean, absolutely!!! I want Sam to do anything humanly possible, fight until the ends of the earth, sacrifice his own life for Dean. Yes to all those things. Do I want Sam to betray his morals, slaughter an innocent victim, call upon supernatural powers, disturb the natural order, or utterly betray Dean's moral code to save him… no, I do not.

E this is exactly what I am afraid of and your hope is what I want to see too. The fact that everything the season has shown us so far makes the bad storyline at least 'possible' if not quite bordering on 'likely' is making it incredibly difficult to enjoy the journey :-?
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-18 21:50
Quote:
If TPTB spend the rest of this season showing us how wrong Sam is to want equality, to want the decisions that they make to not have an adverse effect on those around them, to have Dean TRUST him, while at the same time showing us that Dean is right to do any and all things including the sacrifice of innocents to keep each either other alive, then I will never forgive them. I am dearly, dearly hoping that that is NOT the story that they are planning to tell. Do I want Sam to save Dean, absolutely!!! I want Sam to do anything humanly possible, fight until the ends of the earth, sacrifice his own life for Dean. Yes to all those things. Do I want Sam to betray his morals, slaughter an innocent victim, call upon supernatural powers, disturb the natural order, or utterly betray Dean's moral code to save him… no, I do not.
E this is exactly what I am afraid of and your hope is what I want to see too. The fact that everything the season has shown us so far makes the bad storyline at least 'possible' if not quite bordering on 'likely' is making it incredibly difficult to enjoy the journey :-?
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 21:52
Hi E, I don't think Sam should cut him a break in the least. I don't agree with what Dean did at all. I think Dean saying that he would do it again was a kneejerk reaction in the moment. I believe Dean will come to understand the difference between this situation and just saving his brothers life in general. I really don't think the PTB are setting Sam up to be in the wrong here. The fandom is doing that. And I gotta tell ya, being a Dean leaning fan is not a bed of roses here. I lean Dean (I like how that sounds :-) ) and despite expressing over and over that I don't agree with what he did, it still seems to come across somehow that I am excusing him for letting Sam get possessed. Or for the lying. My quibble was over the idea that he did it all as some completely selfish (he can't ever be alone!), deceitful, controlling thing. It was a horrible decision!! I don't know how many ways I can say the same thing. But at the same time I love Dean as much as the fans of Sam love him. And while I can see and admit his faults I also see the good in him and his devotion to Sam which makes him do colossally stupid-assed things sometimes! E, do you think anywhere in any of my posts that I said I think Sam should betray his morals, slaughter innocents, disturb the natural to save Dean? I was NOT one of those people who had a problem with Sam's speech. It was painful but necessary.Just because I chose to defend Dean on one issue doesn't mean I am onboard with what he did. I am defending myself against things I never said at all.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 21:52
Hi E, I don't think Sam should cut him a break in the least. I don't agree with what Dean did at all. I think Dean saying that he would do it again was a kneejerk reaction in the moment. I believe Dean will come to understand the difference between this situation and just saving his brothers life in general. I really don't think the PTB are setting Sam up to be in the wrong here. The fandom is doing that. And I gotta tell ya, being a Dean leaning fan is not a bed of roses here. I lean Dean (I like how that sounds :-) ) and despite expressing over and over that I don't agree with what he did, it still seems to come across somehow that I am excusing him for letting Sam get possessed. Or for the lying. My quibble was over the idea that he did it all as some completely selfish (he can't ever be alone!), deceitful, controlling thing. It was a horrible decision!! I don't know how many ways I can say the same thing. But at the same time I love Dean as much as the fans of Sam love him. And while I can see and admit his faults I also see the good in him and his devotion to Sam which makes him do colossally stupid-assed things sometimes! E, do you think anywhere in any of my posts that I said I think Sam should betray his morals, slaughter innocents, disturb the natural to save Dean? I was NOT one of those people who had a problem with Sam's speech. It was painful but necessary.Just because I chose to defend Dean on one issue doesn't mean I am onboard with what he did. I am defending myself against things I never said at all.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 22:07
Hi eilf! Thanks for that. I believe Dean is controlling absolutely! My issue was the statement that controlling Sam and making Sam do what he wants is Deans "first" priority. I don't agree. I think saving Sam life and having his brother back was his first priority. Ignoring Sam's wishes and lying to him were byproducts of his first priority IMO and completely WRONG. It's OK eilf, I know many don't agree with me but there you go. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-18 22:07
Hi eilf! Thanks for that. I believe Dean is controlling absolutely! My issue was the statement that controlling Sam and making Sam do what he wants is Deans "first" priority. I don't agree. I think saving Sam life and having his brother back was his first priority. Ignoring Sam's wishes and lying to him were byproducts of his first priority IMO and completely WRONG. It's OK eilf, I know many don't agree with me but there you go. :-)
E
# E 2014-02-18 23:10
Hi lead d #47. I guess I wasn't very clear. I was actually agreeing with you that I didn't think Dean was being nefarious or deliberately controlling for malicious reasons. He IS controlling, but I am not sure that he understands that or sees it that way. Then I guess I went more into a diatribe on how many people seem to be trying to find ways to let Dean off the hook, there are even reviewers (who should be more balanced IMO and try to see things from both brother's sides) who have presented views that are so one sided that it's almost laughable (only it ain't all that funny). I didn't really separate out when I was no longer really addressing what your initial point was to go into my semi rant. I am sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, that wasn't my intention, and I wasn't very clear in my post. I should have separated out my thoughts more instead of just rambling on.

I know that as a Dean leaner that you find it difficult sometimes, especially now that the brothers are in conflict (again!), but its no less difficult for those of us who lean Sam, finding him crucified by the fandom for everything, for Dean to ALWAYS be given complex POV and the benefit of the doubt in all things while Sam is made the villain even when he's the victim. I don't hate Dean, I never have, but I am not very happy with him right now, and the way in which the fandom has been reacting lately has made me less patient with him than usual because I am in 'defend Sam' mode. Sorry if you took offense!! :oops:
E
# E 2014-02-18 23:10
Hi lead d #47. I guess I wasn't very clear. I was actually agreeing with you that I didn't think Dean was being nefarious or deliberately controlling for malicious reasons. He IS controlling, but I am not sure that he understands that or sees it that way. Then I guess I went more into a diatribe on how many people seem to be trying to find ways to let Dean off the hook, there are even reviewers (who should be more balanced IMO and try to see things from both brother's sides) who have presented views that are so one sided that it's almost laughable (only it ain't all that funny). I didn't really separate out when I was no longer really addressing what your initial point was to go into my semi rant. I am sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, that wasn't my intention, and I wasn't very clear in my post. I should have separated out my thoughts more instead of just rambling on.

I know that as a Dean leaner that you find it difficult sometimes, especially now that the brothers are in conflict (again!), but its no less difficult for those of us who lean Sam, finding him crucified by the fandom for everything, for Dean to ALWAYS be given complex POV and the benefit of the doubt in all things while Sam is made the villain even when he's the victim. I don't hate Dean, I never have, but I am not very happy with him right now, and the way in which the fandom has been reacting lately has made me less patient with him than usual because I am in 'defend Sam' mode. Sorry if you took offense!! :oops:
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 00:16
:-) No E, I didn't take offense. We're good!! I was just trying to be very clear about being on Sam's side but still taking issue with the idea that Dean's FIRST priority is "making Sam does what Dean wants and controlling Sam against Sam's will." That is a blanket statement that I happen to disagree with. I understand Sam's fans defensiveness and why, but I wasn't criticizing Sam (I never do). It's a tough time to be an online fan right now period. It's enough to give ya an ulcer :-x (I hope you don't mind me borrowing your green face).
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 00:16
:-) No E, I didn't take offense. We're good!! I was just trying to be very clear about being on Sam's side but still taking issue with the idea that Dean's FIRST priority is "making Sam does what Dean wants and controlling Sam against Sam's will." That is a blanket statement that I happen to disagree with. I understand Sam's fans defensiveness and why, but I wasn't criticizing Sam (I never do). It's a tough time to be an online fan right now period. It's enough to give ya an ulcer :-x (I hope you don't mind me borrowing your green face).
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 00:24
@50- incorrect quote s/b "making sure Sam does what Dean wants..."
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 00:24
@50- incorrect quote s/b "making sure Sam does what Dean wants..."
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-19 03:24
Hi Leah, I agree with you. Dean IS controlling and needs to change, but I don't think it's deliberate either. He's not exactly prone to self-reflection :)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-19 03:24
Hi Leah, I agree with you. Dean IS controlling and needs to change, but I don't think it's deliberate either. He's not exactly prone to self-reflection :)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 12:01
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant? Dean can't carry the burden for the both of them. He has to let Sam carry his share too. Sam has to at least be in control of his own life and make his own decisions. I also think that Sam would like to be a full partner in their war against the supernatural not a damsel in distress that Dean has to rescue. In other words being rescued by "my brother the hero". Some pretty heavy characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson, Bobby, Death etc. Will this be the catalyst that Dean needs, losing his brothers trust? The one thing he cherishes above all others? I can't wait to see where the writers go with this. Will we see a contrite Dean or an angry unapologetic Dean?
Looks like the next ep isn't going to further the conflict so we are going to have to wait even longer.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 12:01
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant? Dean can't carry the burden for the both of them. He has to let Sam carry his share too. Sam has to at least be in control of his own life and make his own decisions. I also think that Sam would like to be a full partner in their war against the supernatural not a damsel in distress that Dean has to rescue. In other words being rescued by "my brother the hero". Some pretty heavy characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson, Bobby, Death etc. Will this be the catalyst that Dean needs, losing his brothers trust? The one thing he cherishes above all others? I can't wait to see where the writers go with this. Will we see a contrite Dean or an angry unapologetic Dean?
Looks like the next ep isn't going to further the conflict so we are going to have to wait even longer.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 13:21
Cheryl@53 Hi, I can't speak for anyone else but I think that is exactly how Dean feels. He acts cocky and self-assured but is always aware of his responsibilitie s as they were defined by his father. BOTH boys had a horrible upbringing. Any time Dean messed up his father landed on him like a ton of bricks, especially concerning his younger brothers safety. I think that got twisted along the way. I would like to again make clear that that doesn't excuse Dean for what he did to Sam. He needs to stop trying to control Sam's life and trust Sam to make his own decisions. Hopefully he will realize that. I suspect this is heading there. The signs are good. But it is painful at the moment for both of them. In most other areas I believe Dean trusts Sam very much. Others may disagree but that is my slant. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 13:21
Cheryl@53 Hi, I can't speak for anyone else but I think that is exactly how Dean feels. He acts cocky and self-assured but is always aware of his responsibilitie s as they were defined by his father. BOTH boys had a horrible upbringing. Any time Dean messed up his father landed on him like a ton of bricks, especially concerning his younger brothers safety. I think that got twisted along the way. I would like to again make clear that that doesn't excuse Dean for what he did to Sam. He needs to stop trying to control Sam's life and trust Sam to make his own decisions. Hopefully he will realize that. I suspect this is heading there. The signs are good. But it is painful at the moment for both of them. In most other areas I believe Dean trusts Sam very much. Others may disagree but that is my slant. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 14:14
Yes these are good guys that make wrong choices for the right reasons. I think putting Dean in what he thought of as a no win situation was a clever way for the writers to put Dean on a life altering precipice. He could fall either way. Total darkness or maybe trusting Sam to take him to the light. I imagine in true SPN fashion it will get a whole lot darker before it gets lighter.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 14:14
Yes these are good guys that make wrong choices for the right reasons. I think putting Dean in what he thought of as a no win situation was a clever way for the writers to put Dean on a life altering precipice. He could fall either way. Total darkness or maybe trusting Sam to take him to the light. I imagine in true SPN fashion it will get a whole lot darker before it gets lighter.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-19 14:50
Quote:
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant?
I think this is one reason why Dean is afraid of losing control. I think that John's parenting and Dean's childhood play into it as well. When Mary died the trauma turned John into a paranoid, drill sergeant, control freak. John believed and convinced Dean to believe that only John could keep them safe and that absolute obedience was required for them to be safe. In other words, having complete control equaled safety. By giving Sam to Dean, John gave Dean some control over Sam. Then once John died, Dean reverted to the only way he knew to keep them safe, take control and never let go.

This doesn't work IRL or on the show. Not having Sam be a partner and share the burdens has led to conflict and both brothers doing dangerous destructive things. Sam does them trying to establish independence, Dean does them trying to remain in control. It is a hard pattern to break but it needs to be broken if they are going to work together and rebuild their relationship.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-19 14:50
Quote:
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant?
I think this is one reason why Dean is afraid of losing control. I think that John's parenting and Dean's childhood play into it as well. When Mary died the trauma turned John into a paranoid, drill sergeant, control freak. John believed and convinced Dean to believe that only John could keep them safe and that absolute obedience was required for them to be safe. In other words, having complete control equaled safety. By giving Sam to Dean, John gave Dean some control over Sam. Then once John died, Dean reverted to the only way he knew to keep them safe, take control and never let go.

This doesn't work IRL or on the show. Not having Sam be a partner and share the burdens has led to conflict and both brothers doing dangerous destructive things. Sam does them trying to establish independence, Dean does them trying to remain in control. It is a hard pattern to break but it needs to be broken if they are going to work together and rebuild their relationship.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 15:18
#56- I agree with this.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 15:18
#56- I agree with this.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 16:34
Do you think that when Sam said "you think you're my savior, my hero" that he meant he didn't need to be saved? He had made his decision, he was ready to die. More than the possession, or even Kevins death his right to choose his own destiny was taken away. What he wants from Dean is to respect that? More than trust or love he wants to control his own destiny.
Sorry sometimes I'm a little slow in the aha that is what he meant moments.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 16:34
Do you think that when Sam said "you think you're my savior, my hero" that he meant he didn't need to be saved? He had made his decision, he was ready to die. More than the possession, or even Kevins death his right to choose his own destiny was taken away. What he wants from Dean is to respect that? More than trust or love he wants to control his own destiny.
Sorry sometimes I'm a little slow in the aha that is what he meant moments.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 16:55
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 16:55
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 17:13
Thanks Leah. I always go back to Cold Oak. Sam was dead. He hadn't harmed anyone. He was an innocent resting peacefully in heaven. Now it wasn't his choice to die as far as we know at the time but looking back I would bet that Sam wished he would have stayed dead. A lot of destruction would have been avoided. Most of it caused by Sam's own misguided choices. From that experience (among many) I think that Sam wanted to die rather than cause more harm. But if Dean had an acceptable plan for him to live he really did want to live. Just not like that.
I agree their is not going to be a happy ending. Jensen's is by far the saddest ending imaginable.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 17:13
Thanks Leah. I always go back to Cold Oak. Sam was dead. He hadn't harmed anyone. He was an innocent resting peacefully in heaven. Now it wasn't his choice to die as far as we know at the time but looking back I would bet that Sam wished he would have stayed dead. A lot of destruction would have been avoided. Most of it caused by Sam's own misguided choices. From that experience (among many) I think that Sam wanted to die rather than cause more harm. But if Dean had an acceptable plan for him to live he really did want to live. Just not like that.
I agree their is not going to be a happy ending. Jensen's is by far the saddest ending imaginable.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 18:05
Cheryl, Metamorphic Rocks makes some excellent points in her thread about how many of the deaths are not directly caused by the actions of Sam and Dean but rather the result of getting caught up in their "war". But San and Dean both take these to heart and feel directly responsible for them all. I feel like Kevin's death was one that should weigh heavy as he was dragged into this kicking and screaming and not enough measures were taken to assure his safety. That one still bothers me!
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 18:05
Cheryl, Metamorphic Rocks makes some excellent points in her thread about how many of the deaths are not directly caused by the actions of Sam and Dean but rather the result of getting caught up in their "war". But San and Dean both take these to heart and feel directly responsible for them all. I feel like Kevin's death was one that should weigh heavy as he was dragged into this kicking and screaming and not enough measures were taken to assure his safety. That one still bothers me!
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-19 18:23
Quoting leah d:
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.


Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-19 18:23
Quote:
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.
Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 19:22
Quoting percysowner:
Quoting leah d:
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.


Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.


Yeah I believe you are right. But there have been a few times it seemed like he embraced the life and the idea that they do good and that what they do is worth it. But I do think he would take normal if given the opportunity. And I believe, Dean wishes that for his brother too. I know some fans feel differently, that's ok, this is how I see Dean. He doesn't really WANT to fight alone but I think if he thought it was possible for them he would have Dean's blessings. This is so cheesy but I sometimes envision an ending where Sam has a wife and baby and Dean stopping by on his way to another hunt. Both doing what they want. Won't happen but I can hope.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-19 19:22
Quote:
Quote:
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.
Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.
Yeah I believe you are right. But there have been a few times it seemed like he embraced the life and the idea that they do good and that what they do is worth it. But I do think he would take normal if given the opportunity. And I believe, Dean wishes that for his brother too. I know some fans feel differently, that's ok, this is how I see Dean. He doesn't really WANT to fight alone but I think if he thought it was possible for them he would have Dean's blessings. This is so cheesy but I sometimes envision an ending where Sam has a wife and baby and Dean stopping by on his way to another hunt. Both doing what they want. Won't happen but I can hope.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 20:19
Sometimes I think that Dean thinks the only safe place for Sam is with him. That is why it is so hard to let Sam go. Dean couldn't protect him then. He has seen over the years that Sam has needed rescuing a few times. But of course some of the rescuing hasn't gone so well. I think that is why when they found the bunker Dean started to see that there might be a safe place for Sam after all. Sam a MOL while Dean stayed on the hunt. So Leah your dream seems to be Dean's as well.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-19 20:19
Sometimes I think that Dean thinks the only safe place for Sam is with him. That is why it is so hard to let Sam go. Dean couldn't protect him then. He has seen over the years that Sam has needed rescuing a few times. But of course some of the rescuing hasn't gone so well. I think that is why when they found the bunker Dean started to see that there might be a safe place for Sam after all. Sam a MOL while Dean stayed on the hunt. So Leah your dream seems to be Dean's as well.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-19 21:49
Quoting leah d:
Quoting percysowner:
Quoting leah d:
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.


Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.


Yeah I believe you are right. But there have been a few times it seemed like he embraced the life and the idea that they do good and that what they do is worth it. But I do think he would take normal if given the opportunity. And I believe, Dean wishes that for his brother too. I know some fans feel differently, that's ok, this is how I see Dean. He doesn't really WANT to fight alone but I think if he thought it was possible for them he would have Dean's blessings. This is so cheesy but I sometimes envision an ending where Sam has a wife and baby and Dean stopping by on his way to another hunt. Both doing what they want. Won't happen but I can hope.


Oh I agree, Sam has embraced the life at times. As I said, he was as indoctrinated as Dean was by John, he just resisted longer and still does.

I will say Sam actually was clear, he didn't want normal, he wanted SAFE. It was Dean who said Sam wanted a normal apple pie life. Most people remember Dean's statement, but I believe that Sam knew what he wanted and was pretty clear about stating it. Even in season four in Chris Angel is a douchebag, he was trying to find a way that he and Dean could have some kind of safe life. He suggested being like Bobby and Dean couldn't see it at the time. So I do think that if Sam could find a way to feel SAFE and remain in the world of hunting, he might do that. Sam has never talked about wanting kids, or even buying a house. He wants to continue his education, but other than that, he really doesn't talk or even seem to dream about normal. Normal is actually what I think Dean wants. It makes sense, Dean had normal for the first four years of his life. Sam NEVER had normal. Even in college he was estranged from his family, hardly normal, and surrounded by demons maneuvering him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-19 21:49
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.
Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.
Yeah I believe you are right. But there have been a few times it seemed like he embraced the life and the idea that they do good and that what they do is worth it. But I do think he would take normal if given the opportunity. And I believe, Dean wishes that for his brother too. I know some fans feel differently, that's ok, this is how I see Dean. He doesn't really WANT to fight alone but I think if he thought it was possible for them he would have Dean's blessings. This is so cheesy but I sometimes envision an ending where Sam has a wife and baby and Dean stopping by on his way to another hunt. Both doing what they want. Won't happen but I can hope.
Oh I agree, Sam has embraced the life at times. As I said, he was as indoctrinated as Dean was by John, he just resisted longer and still does.

I will say Sam actually was clear, he didn't want normal, he wanted SAFE. It was Dean who said Sam wanted a normal apple pie life. Most people remember Dean's statement, but I believe that Sam knew what he wanted and was pretty clear about stating it. Even in season four in Chris Angel is a douchebag, he was trying to find a way that he and Dean could have some kind of safe life. He suggested being like Bobby and Dean couldn't see it at the time. So I do think that if Sam could find a way to feel SAFE and remain in the world of hunting, he might do that. Sam has never talked about wanting kids, or even buying a house. He wants to continue his education, but other than that, he really doesn't talk or even seem to dream about normal. Normal is actually what I think Dean wants. It makes sense, Dean had normal for the first four years of his life. Sam NEVER had normal. Even in college he was estranged from his family, hardly normal, and surrounded by demons maneuvering him.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-20 06:11
Are we back to saying Dean has forced Sam to be a hunter? Mary made a deal to save John that caused Sam to have demon blood. Dean was the one who really got forced into hunting because of his family obligations and need to protect his brother. We saw that the demons were manipulating Sam all along even in college and killed Jess to get him back on the road to hunting. Dean could have gotten out earlier in life but not Sam.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-20 06:11
Are we back to saying Dean has forced Sam to be a hunter? Mary made a deal to save John that caused Sam to have demon blood. Dean was the one who really got forced into hunting because of his family obligations and need to protect his brother. We saw that the demons were manipulating Sam all along even in college and killed Jess to get him back on the road to hunting. Dean could have gotten out earlier in life but not Sam.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-20 06:24
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 07:04
Prix@67- I really don't think that is true and an unfair statement about Sam. He has shown his concern throughout the series. The MOC will be addressed and I suspect Sam will be heavily involved if it means his brother will come to harm.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 07:04
Prix@67- I really don't think that is true and an unfair statement about Sam. He has shown his concern throughout the series. The MOC will be addressed and I suspect Sam will be heavily involved if it means his brother will come to harm.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 07:15
Quoting percysowner:
Quoting leah d:
Quoting percysowner:
Quoting leah d:
I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.


Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.


Yeah I believe you are right. But there have been a few times it seemed like he embraced the life and the idea that they do good and that what they do is worth it. But I do think he would take normal if given the opportunity. And I believe, Dean wishes that for his brother too. I know some fans feel differently, that's ok, this is how I see Dean. He doesn't really WANT to fight alone but I think if he thought it was possible for them he would have Dean's blessings. This is so cheesy but I sometimes envision an ending where Sam has a wife and baby and Dean stopping by on his way to another hunt. Both doing what they want. Won't happen but I can hope.


Oh I agree, Sam has embraced the life at times. As I said, he was as indoctrinated as Dean was by John, he just resisted longer and still does.

I will say Sam actually was clear, he didn't want normal, he wanted SAFE. It was Dean who said Sam wanted a normal apple pie life. Most people remember Dean's statement, but I believe that Sam knew what he wanted and was pretty clear about stating it. Even in season four in Chris Angel is a douchebag, he was trying to find a way that he and Dean could have some kind of safe life. He suggested being like Bobby and Dean couldn't see it at the time. So I do think that if Sam could find a way to feel SAFE and remain in the world of hunting, he might do that. Sam has never talked about wanting kids, or even buying a house. He wants to continue his education, but other than that, he really doesn't talk or even seem to dream about normal. Normal is actually what I think Dean wants. It makes sense, Dean had normal for the first four years of his life. Sam NEVER had normal. Even in college he was estranged from his family, hardly normal, and surrounded by demons maneuvering him.


Maybe he didn't actually say the words but it follows that if he attends college and/or lives with women that he wants to have a life with, that a more normal existence is what he longs for. Being completely safe was never really an option for him (knowing what he knew). The having children part was just me adding to my cheesy happy ending.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 07:15
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I personally think it is all of the above, cheryl42. I think he was willing to die. And what Dean did to betrayed his trust.The aftermath only exacerbated that. I selfishly don't want Sam to REALLY desire death. I want it to be a result of the trauma that his mind and body took during the trails and what he has been through previously. I want these guys to find some peace and a little happiness before their time is done. Others think they are doomed to die bloody and are not meant to have any peace on this earth. I hope otherwise. JMO of course.
Something I think that has gotten lost in the discussion of Sam and closing the Gates of Hell is that way back in The Pilot, Sam said John raised them to be warriors. Warriors are raised to GIVE their lives in the protection of their people. Sam didn't want that life. He had tried to run from that life, but in the end, Sam was raised to be a warrior and to accept that his death was an acceptable loss in the war against the supernatural and especially against "the thing that killed Mom and Jess" which turned out to be a demon. So, IMHO, Sam being willing to die has as much to do with how he was raised and less to do with wanting to die. It also goes to his blame of Dean for stopping him at the church. Dean dragged him back into hunting based on revenge for Jess, but also to stop the demons, then Dean gets him to abandon The Cause. And then Sam finds out that Dean lied to him and betrayed him by handing him over to Gadreel. It's not rational, but in general people do get angry at those who tempt them away from the way they were taught to live and it's harder when they were the ones teaching them how to live in the first place.

Sam stopped being a warrior for himself. He went back to being a warrior because of Jess. He stayed in the battle because of Dean. He left after Dean died for himself and came back into the war because Dean told him it was his duty. And he quits just as he is about to achieve victory because Dean asks him to. On some level Sam must feel like "Dude, just make up your freaking mind already". Dean wants Sam safe, but insists he stay in a way of life that almost guarantees Sam will die young. Then when the inevitable death catches up with him, Dean tells him he wants him safe again, only to turn around and announce they have to go back to hunting, which will probably lead to one of them getting killed. Sam wants off the merry-go-round. If he can't leave the life then he at least wants to be let go when the time comes. Talk about "I almost got out, but they keep pulling me back in" Any way Sam tries to leave the life he gets pulled back in.
Yeah I believe you are right. But there have been a few times it seemed like he embraced the life and the idea that they do good and that what they do is worth it. But I do think he would take normal if given the opportunity. And I believe, Dean wishes that for his brother too. I know some fans feel differently, that's ok, this is how I see Dean. He doesn't really WANT to fight alone but I think if he thought it was possible for them he would have Dean's blessings. This is so cheesy but I sometimes envision an ending where Sam has a wife and baby and Dean stopping by on his way to another hunt. Both doing what they want. Won't happen but I can hope.
Oh I agree, Sam has embraced the life at times. As I said, he was as indoctrinated as Dean was by John, he just resisted longer and still does.

I will say Sam actually was clear, he didn't want normal, he wanted SAFE. It was Dean who said Sam wanted a normal apple pie life. Most people remember Dean's statement, but I believe that Sam knew what he wanted and was pretty clear about stating it. Even in season four in Chris Angel is a douchebag, he was trying to find a way that he and Dean could have some kind of safe life. He suggested being like Bobby and Dean couldn't see it at the time. So I do think that if Sam could find a way to feel SAFE and remain in the world of hunting, he might do that. Sam has never talked about wanting kids, or even buying a house. He wants to continue his education, but other than that, he really doesn't talk or even seem to dream about normal. Normal is actually what I think Dean wants. It makes sense, Dean had normal for the first four years of his life. Sam NEVER had normal. Even in college he was estranged from his family, hardly normal, and surrounded by demons maneuvering him.
Maybe he didn't actually say the words but it follows that if he attends college and/or lives with women that he wants to have a life with, that a more normal existence is what he longs for. Being completely safe was never really an option for him (knowing what he knew). The having children part was just me adding to my cheesy happy ending.
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-20 07:42
Quoting Prix68:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.


Tell me why we are suppossed to be concerned about the mark? Cause I h9nestly dint think the writers have given ME a reason t be concerned. SO far the Mark is for someone special and worthy and its to kill the highest ranking assassins of Hell.

Besides if Dean the smartest and most rightous man alive isn't concerned and btw canb't find any info on the MArk then what is Sam - the hapless idiot who isn't allowed free will or to question Dean on anything - suppossed to do? Besides, isn't every decsion Dean makes is pure and right and good and made of gold and perfect?
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-20 07:42
Quote:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.
Tell me why we are suppossed to be concerned about the mark? Cause I h9nestly dint think the writers have given ME a reason t be concerned. SO far the Mark is for someone special and worthy and its to kill the highest ranking assassins of Hell.

Besides if Dean the smartest and most rightous man alive isn't concerned and btw canb't find any info on the MArk then what is Sam - the hapless idiot who isn't allowed free will or to question Dean on anything - suppossed to do? Besides, isn't every decsion Dean makes is pure and right and good and made of gold and perfect?
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-20 08:58
Quoting Prix68:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.


Considering Dean was totally unconcerned that part of the angel he SHOVED into Sam by tricking him and who then KILLED KEVIN had left part of himself in Sam, I'm not too chuffed that Sam isn't oozing concern about the MOC. At least he didn't make a pregnancy joke or laugh at the MOC. Dean made a choice and Sam is letting him live with it. Dean spent months not caring about how Gadreel might be affecting Sam, simply taking Gadreel at his word that Gadreel was healing Sam. He didn't object to Gadreel changing Sam's memories and playing with Sam's mind. So I don't see why Sam should be concerned about something Dean took on willingly that has no obvious affects. If another personality starts coming out and taking over Dean's body, then Sam can worry about it.

If the MOC becomes an issue I'm sure they will deal with. If at some point to combat the MOC, Sam can find the MOL version of a panic room. Then he can go the Dean approved "leave them to die human" route. Lock Dean in the panic room and walk away while Dean screams for help and never check to see how Dean is doing until Dean goes silent.

In any case, Dean violated Sam's body and Sam gets to care however much or little as he chooses.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-20 08:58
Quote:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.
Considering Dean was totally unconcerned that part of the angel he SHOVED into Sam by tricking him and who then KILLED KEVIN had left part of himself in Sam, I'm not too chuffed that Sam isn't oozing concern about the MOC. At least he didn't make a pregnancy joke or laugh at the MOC. Dean made a choice and Sam is letting him live with it. Dean spent months not caring about how Gadreel might be affecting Sam, simply taking Gadreel at his word that Gadreel was healing Sam. He didn't object to Gadreel changing Sam's memories and playing with Sam's mind. So I don't see why Sam should be concerned about something Dean took on willingly that has no obvious affects. If another personality starts coming out and taking over Dean's body, then Sam can worry about it.

If the MOC becomes an issue I'm sure they will deal with. If at some point to combat the MOC, Sam can find the MOL version of a panic room. Then he can go the Dean approved "leave them to die human" route. Lock Dean in the panic room and walk away while Dean screams for help and never check to see how Dean is doing until Dean goes silent.

In any case, Dean violated Sam's body and Sam gets to care however much or little as he chooses.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 09:27
Prix unfortunately Jared can only say the lines that are written for him. He hasn't so far been given the script that deals with the MOC (well I'm sure he has we just haven't seen it yet). So we will have to be patient and wait and see how it is dealt with.
.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 09:27
Prix unfortunately Jared can only say the lines that are written for him. He hasn't so far been given the script that deals with the MOC (well I'm sure he has we just haven't seen it yet). So we will have to be patient and wait and see how it is dealt with.
.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 10:07
Quoting Prix68:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.


Prix, that is character bashing and against the site rules. We know you don't like Sam and that's fine. But many of us disagree with your assessment of Sam and you should respect that.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 10:07
Quote:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.
Prix, that is character bashing and against the site rules. We know you don't like Sam and that's fine. But many of us disagree with your assessment of Sam and you should respect that.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-20 10:13
Quoting Prix68:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.


And this is the go to argument when it come's to Sam it is a pity you chose to go there. And seems particular wrong coming off the back of the first 10 episodes .

It is hard for me considering what Dean did to sit here and think how self centred Sam is .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-20 10:13
Quote:
Sam is so self centered that he hasn't even shown any concern about Dean having the MoC. It's all about Sam, all the time.
And this is the go to argument when it come's to Sam it is a pity you chose to go there. And seems particular wrong coming off the back of the first 10 episodes .

It is hard for me considering what Dean did to sit here and think how self centred Sam is .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-20 10:20
double post sorry.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-20 10:20
double post sorry.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-20 10:26
Well, if saying Dean shoved an angel into Sam and was unconcerned about Sam's well fair isn't character bashing or constantly repeating the refrain that Dean is the reason Sam's life is about hunting when it's not isn't character bashing then neither is my opinion about Sam's motives being self centered.

Yes, I am a diehard Dean fan and always will be but I have often defended Sam's motives as well. Dean is a hunter because he had a brother with "special needs" if you will and was raised to put that brother's well being first. If anyone should understand good intentions going bad it's Sam and while I definitely think some limits need to be set, Sam could do it with a lot more compassion then he has
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-20 10:26
Well, if saying Dean shoved an angel into Sam and was unconcerned about Sam's well fair isn't character bashing or constantly repeating the refrain that Dean is the reason Sam's life is about hunting when it's not isn't character bashing then neither is my opinion about Sam's motives being self centered.

Yes, I am a diehard Dean fan and always will be but I have often defended Sam's motives as well. Dean is a hunter because he had a brother with "special needs" if you will and was raised to put that brother's well being first. If anyone should understand good intentions going bad it's Sam and while I definitely think some limits need to be set, Sam could do it with a lot more compassion then he has
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 10:51
Quoting Prix68:
Dean is a hunter because he had a brother with "special needs"


If Sam is the reason why Dean hunts, why didn't Dean stop once Sam went to Stanford? In Bloodlust Dean said he had 'embraced the life'. Dean hunts because Dean wants to and there is nothing wrong with that.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 10:51
Quote:
Dean is a hunter because he had a brother with "special needs"
If Sam is the reason why Dean hunts, why didn't Dean stop once Sam went to Stanford? In Bloodlust Dean said he had 'embraced the life'. Dean hunts because Dean wants to and there is nothing wrong with that.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 10:53
Quoting Prix68:
Well, if saying Dean shoved an angel into Sam and was unconcerned about Sam's well fair isn't character bashing or constantly repeating the refrain that Dean is the reason Sam's life is about hunting when it's not isn't character bashing then neither is my opinion about Sam's motives being self centered.


Percysowner said those things in response to your post. So I'm sorry, but in playground parlance 'you started it'
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 10:53
Quote:
Well, if saying Dean shoved an angel into Sam and was unconcerned about Sam's well fair isn't character bashing or constantly repeating the refrain that Dean is the reason Sam's life is about hunting when it's not isn't character bashing then neither is my opinion about Sam's motives being self centered.
Percysowner said those things in response to your post. So I'm sorry, but in playground parlance 'you started it'
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 11:26
Can we let this go. We know how Prix feels. Nothing is going to change her/his opinion and nothing he/she says will change anyone else's. Let's move on.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 11:26
Can we let this go. We know how Prix feels. Nothing is going to change her/his opinion and nothing he/she says will change anyone else's. Let's move on.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 11:41
Quoting cheryl42:
Can we let this go. We know how Prix feels. Nothing is going to change her/his opinion and nothing he/she says will change anyone else's. Let's move on.


Sure, personally I'd like to have a mature discussion which allows that there are two sides to every story :D
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 11:41
Quote:
Can we let this go. We know how Prix feels. Nothing is going to change her/his opinion and nothing he/she says will change anyone else's. Let's move on.
Sure, personally I'd like to have a mature discussion which allows that there are two sides to every story :D
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-20 11:42
Quoting Prix68:
Well, if saying Dean shoved an angel into Sam and was unconcerned about Sam's well fair isn't character bashing or constantly repeating the refrain that Dean is the reason Sam's life is about hunting when it's not isn't character bashing then neither is my opinion about Sam's motives being self centered.

Yes, I am a diehard Dean fan and always will be but I have often defended Sam's motives as well. Dean is a hunter because he had a brother with "special needs" if you will and was raised to put that brother's well being first. If anyone should understand good intentions going bad it's Sam and while I definitely think some limits need to be set, Sam could do it with a lot more compassion then he has


But perhaps he cannot right now and frankly it is unfair to expect him to. I do not come from your perspective that Dean is the one being treated unfairly and Sam is the one in the wrong. Compassion is not something given when you come from a wounded place and right now that is where Sam is.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-20 11:42
Quote:
Well, if saying Dean shoved an angel into Sam and was unconcerned about Sam's well fair isn't character bashing or constantly repeating the refrain that Dean is the reason Sam's life is about hunting when it's not isn't character bashing then neither is my opinion about Sam's motives being self centered.

Yes, I am a diehard Dean fan and always will be but I have often defended Sam's motives as well. Dean is a hunter because he had a brother with "special needs" if you will and was raised to put that brother's well being first. If anyone should understand good intentions going bad it's Sam and while I definitely think some limits need to be set, Sam could do it with a lot more compassion then he has
But perhaps he cannot right now and frankly it is unfair to expect him to. I do not come from your perspective that Dean is the one being treated unfairly and Sam is the one in the wrong. Compassion is not something given when you come from a wounded place and right now that is where Sam is.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 12:04
Thanks MC. I tried to start a conversation about Dean because for me he is a hard character to understand. I relate to Sam more but that doesn't mean I don't love the character of Dean any less. I really appreciate everyone's insight into his character and motivations.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 12:04
Thanks MC. I tried to start a conversation about Dean because for me he is a hard character to understand. I relate to Sam more but that doesn't mean I don't love the character of Dean any less. I really appreciate everyone's insight into his character and motivations.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 12:11
Quoting cheryl42:
Thanks MC. I tried to start a conversation about Dean because for me he is a hard character to understand. I relate to Sam more but that doesn't mean I don't love the character of Dean any less. I really appreciate everyone's insight into his character and motivations.


I'm intrigued by Dean too, and I love talking to Leah because she loves Dean yet knows he has his faults, just like I love Sam but know he has faults too.

Just like Sam in S4, Dean has come across a situation which highlights those faults and will hopefully give him a chance to address them. I just get annoyed when people ignore how much Sam must be hurting too, that's all.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 12:11
Quote:
Thanks MC. I tried to start a conversation about Dean because for me he is a hard character to understand. I relate to Sam more but that doesn't mean I don't love the character of Dean any less. I really appreciate everyone's insight into his character and motivations.
I'm intrigued by Dean too, and I love talking to Leah because she loves Dean yet knows he has his faults, just like I love Sam but know he has faults too.

Just like Sam in S4, Dean has come across a situation which highlights those faults and will hopefully give him a chance to address them. I just get annoyed when people ignore how much Sam must be hurting too, that's all.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 12:50
Quoting cheryl42:
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant? Dean can't carry the burden for the both of them. He has to let Sam carry his share too. Sam has to at least be in control of his own life and make his own decisions. I also think that Sam would like to be a full partner in their war against the supernatural not a damsel in distress that Dean has to rescue. In other words being rescued by "my brother the hero". Some pretty heavy characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson, Bobby, Death etc. Will this be the catalyst that Dean needs, losing his brothers trust? The one thing he cherishes above all others?


This one Cheryl? That is a way back :D

I think John did a real number on poor Dean's head. If I was going to get angry at a fictional character it would be John :D

I can't say I've got great insight into Dean, but I'll give you my two cents.

I can understand Dean needing to control what he can, since there is so little he CAN control. I can also see why it would be so hard for him to see Sam as an independent adult. The role of parent was thrust on him so young he doesn't know how else to be. And he wasn't just a parent - he was best friend, mother, father, teacher AND brother to Sam. It was vastly unfair of John to put that kind of pressure on a young boy.

I'm not sure it's trust Dean needs from Sam but unconditional love (but I could be wrong). The sad thing is that Dean already has that love, but his low self-esteem doesn't allow him to recognise that.

If Dean had had time to reflect on and deal with all these issues I'd be less sympathetic with what he did to Sam. But since Dean (and Sam) are so busy trying to save the world all the time, I can understand how their childhood issues are still hanging around.

But Dean's issues are now causing serious problems and must be addressed. He's a good guy who has been dealing with awful circumstances for his entire life. His mistakes are understandable and I sympathise, but he needs to realise he cannot make those mistakes again.

Anyhoo, that's my take on it.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-20 12:50
Quote:
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant? Dean can't carry the burden for the both of them. He has to let Sam carry his share too. Sam has to at least be in control of his own life and make his own decisions. I also think that Sam would like to be a full partner in their war against the supernatural not a damsel in distress that Dean has to rescue. In other words being rescued by "my brother the hero". Some pretty heavy characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson, Bobby, Death etc. Will this be the catalyst that Dean needs, losing his brothers trust? The one thing he cherishes above all others?
This one Cheryl? That is a way back :D

I think John did a real number on poor Dean's head. If I was going to get angry at a fictional character it would be John :D

I can't say I've got great insight into Dean, but I'll give you my two cents.

I can understand Dean needing to control what he can, since there is so little he CAN control. I can also see why it would be so hard for him to see Sam as an independent adult. The role of parent was thrust on him so young he doesn't know how else to be. And he wasn't just a parent - he was best friend, mother, father, teacher AND brother to Sam. It was vastly unfair of John to put that kind of pressure on a young boy.

I'm not sure it's trust Dean needs from Sam but unconditional love (but I could be wrong). The sad thing is that Dean already has that love, but his low self-esteem doesn't allow him to recognise that.

If Dean had had time to reflect on and deal with all these issues I'd be less sympathetic with what he did to Sam. But since Dean (and Sam) are so busy trying to save the world all the time, I can understand how their childhood issues are still hanging around.

But Dean's issues are now causing serious problems and must be addressed. He's a good guy who has been dealing with awful circumstances for his entire life. His mistakes are understandable and I sympathise, but he needs to realise he cannot make those mistakes again.

Anyhoo, that's my take on it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 14:06
I think you are right about the trust issue. Sam is the one that wants to be trusted. He already knows that his brother loves him. Dean is the one who wants unconditional love and sometimes I think he can't separate trust and love. For him I think it is the same thing. I also hope that Dean realizes that what he took away from Sam were his choices based on Sam's own experiences. I think that is why Sam said he didn't need Dean to be his hero. Sam didn't think he needed saving. Although I guess we have to be happy that Dean did save him even though we (and Sam) don't like how he did it.
If this is the lesson for Dean It will interesting to see how it plays out if Dean is faced with a similar situation in the future. I don't think Sam's life will be on the line but maybe Cas?
This show I swear. I obsess about it way too much. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 14:06
I think you are right about the trust issue. Sam is the one that wants to be trusted. He already knows that his brother loves him. Dean is the one who wants unconditional love and sometimes I think he can't separate trust and love. For him I think it is the same thing. I also hope that Dean realizes that what he took away from Sam were his choices based on Sam's own experiences. I think that is why Sam said he didn't need Dean to be his hero. Sam didn't think he needed saving. Although I guess we have to be happy that Dean did save him even though we (and Sam) don't like how he did it.
If this is the lesson for Dean It will interesting to see how it plays out if Dean is faced with a similar situation in the future. I don't think Sam's life will be on the line but maybe Cas?
This show I swear. I obsess about it way too much. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 18:29
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Quoting cheryl42:
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant? Dean can't carry the burden for the both of them. He has to let Sam carry his share too. Sam has to at least be in control of his own life and make his own decisions. I also think that Sam would like to be a full partner in their war against the supernatural not a damsel in distress that Dean has to rescue. In other words being rescued by "my brother the hero". Some pretty heavy characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson, Bobby, Death etc. Will this be the catalyst that Dean needs, losing his brothers trust? The one thing he cherishes above all others?


This one Cheryl? That is a way back :D

I think John did a real number on poor Dean's head. If I was going to get angry at a fictional character it would be John :D

I can't say I've got great insight into Dean, but I'll give you my two cents.

I can understand Dean needing to control what he can, since there is so little he CAN control. I can also see why it would be so hard for him to see Sam as an independent adult. The role of parent was thrust on him so young he doesn't know how else to be. And he wasn't just a parent - he was best friend, mother, father, teacher AND brother to Sam. It was vastly unfair of John to put that kind of pressure on a young boy.

I'm not sure it's trust Dean needs from Sam but unconditional love (but I could be wrong). The sad thing is that Dean already has that love, but his low self-esteem doesn't allow him to recognise that.

If Dean had had time to reflect on and deal with all these issues I'd be less sympathetic with what he did to Sam. But since Dean (and Sam) are so busy trying to save the world all the time, I can understand how their childhood issues are still hanging around.

But Dean's issues are now causing serious problems and must be addressed. He's a good guy who has been dealing with awful circumstances for his entire life. His mistakes are understandable and I sympathise, but he needs to realise he cannot make those mistakes again.

Anyhoo, that's my take on it.


Manzanita Crow ( :-) )- I think you understand Dean quite well. Very nice post! Not that it matters but that is how I see it as well! I tend to, when I watch the brothers, also see the innocent little boys who got thrust into a hunters life at such a young age. They lost a mother and a dad essentially, and gained a drill sergeant. I try not to be hard on JW, he did most of what he did to protect his sons but he lost sight of how to be a father. Dean must have remembered what it was like to have a loving father. Sam unfortunately got the drill sergeant. I do think John loved his children but messed them up but good. Those scenes of young Sam and Dean are seared into my brain. They just just kill me. Maybe it's because I am a mom. Not sure. I never lose sight of those little boys.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 18:29
Quote:
Quote:
Do you think Dean is controlling because he is afraid of losing control? By that I mean any given situation spinning out of control. If he is in charge than the blame is going to be squarely on his shoulders if things go south. Is that what Sam meant? Dean can't carry the burden for the both of them. He has to let Sam carry his share too. Sam has to at least be in control of his own life and make his own decisions. I also think that Sam would like to be a full partner in their war against the supernatural not a damsel in distress that Dean has to rescue. In other words being rescued by "my brother the hero". Some pretty heavy characters have tried to teach Dean this lesson, Bobby, Death etc. Will this be the catalyst that Dean needs, losing his brothers trust? The one thing he cherishes above all others?
This one Cheryl? That is a way back :D

I think John did a real number on poor Dean's head. If I was going to get angry at a fictional character it would be John :D

I can't say I've got great insight into Dean, but I'll give you my two cents.

I can understand Dean needing to control what he can, since there is so little he CAN control. I can also see why it would be so hard for him to see Sam as an independent adult. The role of parent was thrust on him so young he doesn't know how else to be. And he wasn't just a parent - he was best friend, mother, father, teacher AND brother to Sam. It was vastly unfair of John to put that kind of pressure on a young boy.

I'm not sure it's trust Dean needs from Sam but unconditional love (but I could be wrong). The sad thing is that Dean already has that love, but his low self-esteem doesn't allow him to recognise that.

If Dean had had time to reflect on and deal with all these issues I'd be less sympathetic with what he did to Sam. But since Dean (and Sam) are so busy trying to save the world all the time, I can understand how their childhood issues are still hanging around.

But Dean's issues are now causing serious problems and must be addressed. He's a good guy who has been dealing with awful circumstances for his entire life. His mistakes are understandable and I sympathise, but he needs to realise he cannot make those mistakes again.

Anyhoo, that's my take on it.
Manzanita Crow ( :-) )- I think you understand Dean quite well. Very nice post! Not that it matters but that is how I see it as well! I tend to, when I watch the brothers, also see the innocent little boys who got thrust into a hunters life at such a young age. They lost a mother and a dad essentially, and gained a drill sergeant. I try not to be hard on JW, he did most of what he did to protect his sons but he lost sight of how to be a father. Dean must have remembered what it was like to have a loving father. Sam unfortunately got the drill sergeant. I do think John loved his children but messed them up but good. Those scenes of young Sam and Dean are seared into my brain. They just just kill me. Maybe it's because I am a mom. Not sure. I never lose sight of those little boys.
E
# E 2014-02-20 19:56
Quoting cheryl42:
I think you are right about the trust issue. Sam is the one that wants to be trusted. He already knows that his brother loves him. Dean is the one who wants unconditional love and sometimes I think he can't separate trust and love. For him I think it is the same thing. I also hope that Dean realizes that what he took away from Sam were his choices based on Sam's own experiences. I think that is why Sam said he didn't need Dean to be his hero. Sam didn't think he needed saving. Although I guess we have to be happy that Dean did save him even though we (and Sam) don't like how he did it.
If this is the lesson for Dean It will interesting to see how it plays out if Dean is faced with a similar situation in the future. I don't think Sam's life will be on the line but maybe Cas?
This show I swear. I obsess about it way too much. :-)


I think you are dead on here cheryl42. I think its the conundrum of love vs. trust; and they are not the same thing, but they are causing somewhat of the same problem between our beloved boys. Dean knows that he has Sam's trust (at least until recently) but he often does not feel that he has Sam's unconditional love. I think Dean's doubt about Sam's love goes back to his own sense of self worth and his childhood. He often feels that he's not worthy of unconditional love, so he tends to interpret things that Sam does (not looking for him when he was in purgatory, and this most recent, "I wouldn't save you" statement) as proof that Sam does not love him because he doesn't deserve it. Dean does not love himself, so no matter how much he tries to look to Sam to fill that gap, he never will because it comes from within.

Similarly but in reverse, Sam has always had Dean's love, unconditionally . But he often feels that he does not have Dean's trust. Because of how alienated Sam was from his own family all through his childhood and his issues with his powers, the demon blood, Lucifer, Soulessness and finding out that he's been manipulated all his life has made Sam not trust in himself, so he interprets every issue he has with Dean of proof that Dean does not trust him. Sam is constantly looking for and asking Dean for his trust. He feels like a failure every time Dean even intimates in any way that Sam is not trusted. But like Dean, he will never FEEL trusted because he does not trust himself. So, no matter how much he asks Dean for his trust, he will never feel like Dean does because he does not trust himself. They are each looking for what they lack in themselves to be validated by their brother, and since the problem is internal, no matter what the other one does to prove that they are loved or trusted it falls short because they need to find that within themselves instead of asking their brother to fulfill that need for them. Not to mention that while they struggle and misunderstand and hurt one another, they are killing us all slowly with the excruciating manpain. Damn them!
E
# E 2014-02-20 19:56
Quote:
I think you are right about the trust issue. Sam is the one that wants to be trusted. He already knows that his brother loves him. Dean is the one who wants unconditional love and sometimes I think he can't separate trust and love. For him I think it is the same thing. I also hope that Dean realizes that what he took away from Sam were his choices based on Sam's own experiences. I think that is why Sam said he didn't need Dean to be his hero. Sam didn't think he needed saving. Although I guess we have to be happy that Dean did save him even though we (and Sam) don't like how he did it.
If this is the lesson for Dean It will interesting to see how it plays out if Dean is faced with a similar situation in the future. I don't think Sam's life will be on the line but maybe Cas?
This show I swear. I obsess about it way too much. :-)
I think you are dead on here cheryl42. I think its the conundrum of love vs. trust; and they are not the same thing, but they are causing somewhat of the same problem between our beloved boys. Dean knows that he has Sam's trust (at least until recently) but he often does not feel that he has Sam's unconditional love. I think Dean's doubt about Sam's love goes back to his own sense of self worth and his childhood. He often feels that he's not worthy of unconditional love, so he tends to interpret things that Sam does (not looking for him when he was in purgatory, and this most recent, "I wouldn't save you" statement) as proof that Sam does not love him because he doesn't deserve it. Dean does not love himself, so no matter how much he tries to look to Sam to fill that gap, he never will because it comes from within.

Similarly but in reverse, Sam has always had Dean's love, unconditionally . But he often feels that he does not have Dean's trust. Because of how alienated Sam was from his own family all through his childhood and his issues with his powers, the demon blood, Lucifer, Soulessness and finding out that he's been manipulated all his life has made Sam not trust in himself, so he interprets every issue he has with Dean of proof that Dean does not trust him. Sam is constantly looking for and asking Dean for his trust. He feels like a failure every time Dean even intimates in any way that Sam is not trusted. But like Dean, he will never FEEL trusted because he does not trust himself. So, no matter how much he asks Dean for his trust, he will never feel like Dean does because he does not trust himself. They are each looking for what they lack in themselves to be validated by their brother, and since the problem is internal, no matter what the other one does to prove that they are loved or trusted it falls short because they need to find that within themselves instead of asking their brother to fulfill that need for them. Not to mention that while they struggle and misunderstand and hurt one another, they are killing us all slowly with the excruciating manpain. Damn them!
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 20:30
Quoting E:
Quoting cheryl42:
I think you are right about the trust issue. Sam is the one that wants to be trusted. He already knows that his brother loves him. Dean is the one who wants unconditional love and sometimes I think he can't separate trust and love. For him I think it is the same thing. I also hope that Dean realizes that what he took away from Sam were his choices based on Sam's own experiences. I think that is why Sam said he didn't need Dean to be his hero. Sam didn't think he needed saving. Although I guess we have to be happy that Dean did save him even though we (and Sam) don't like how he did it.
If this is the lesson for Dean It will interesting to see how it plays out if Dean is faced with a similar situation in the future. I don't think Sam's life will be on the line but maybe Cas?
This show I swear. I obsess about it way too much. :-)


I think you are dead on here cheryl42. I think its the conundrum of love vs. trust; and they are not the same thing, but they are causing somewhat of the same problem between our beloved boys. Dean knows that he has Sam's trust (at least until recently) but he often does not feel that he has Sam's unconditional love. I think Dean's doubt about Sam's love goes back to his own sense of self worth and his childhood. He often feels that he's not worthy of unconditional love, so he tends to interpret things that Sam does (not looking for him when he was in purgatory, and this most recent, "I wouldn't save you" statement) as proof that Sam does not love him because he doesn't deserve it. Dean does not love himself, so no matter how much he tries to look to Sam to fill that gap, he never will because it comes from within.

Similarly but in reverse, Sam has always had Dean's love, unconditionally. But he often feels that he does not have Dean's trust. Because of how alienated Sam was from his own family all through his childhood and his issues with his powers, the demon blood, Lucifer, Soulessness and finding out that he's been manipulated all his life has made Sam not trust in himself, so he interprets every issue he has with Dean of proof that Dean does not trust him. Sam is constantly looking for and asking Dean for his trust. He feels like a failure every time Dean even intimates in any way that Sam is not trusted. But like Dean, he will never FEEL trusted because he does not trust himself. So, no matter how much he asks Dean for his trust, he will never feel like Dean does because he does not trust himself. They are each looking for what they lack in themselves to be validated by their brother, and since the problem is internal, no matter what the other one does to prove that they are loved or trusted it falls short because they need to find that within themselves instead of asking their brother to fulfill that need for them. Not to mention that while they struggle and misunderstand and hurt one another, they are killing us all slowly with the excruciating manpain. Damn them!


Wow E, that is awesome! Spot on I think.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-20 20:30
Quote:
Quote:
I think you are right about the trust issue. Sam is the one that wants to be trusted. He already knows that his brother loves him. Dean is the one who wants unconditional love and sometimes I think he can't separate trust and love. For him I think it is the same thing. I also hope that Dean realizes that what he took away from Sam were his choices based on Sam's own experiences. I think that is why Sam said he didn't need Dean to be his hero. Sam didn't think he needed saving. Although I guess we have to be happy that Dean did save him even though we (and Sam) don't like how he did it.
If this is the lesson for Dean It will interesting to see how it plays out if Dean is faced with a similar situation in the future. I don't think Sam's life will be on the line but maybe Cas?
This show I swear. I obsess about it way too much. :-)
I think you are dead on here cheryl42. I think its the conundrum of love vs. trust; and they are not the same thing, but they are causing somewhat of the same problem between our beloved boys. Dean knows that he has Sam's trust (at least until recently) but he often does not feel that he has Sam's unconditional love. I think Dean's doubt about Sam's love goes back to his own sense of self worth and his childhood. He often feels that he's not worthy of unconditional love, so he tends to interpret things that Sam does (not looking for him when he was in purgatory, and this most recent, "I wouldn't save you" statement) as proof that Sam does not love him because he doesn't deserve it. Dean does not love himself, so no matter how much he tries to look to Sam to fill that gap, he never will because it comes from within.

Similarly but in reverse, Sam has always had Dean's love, unconditionally. But he often feels that he does not have Dean's trust. Because of how alienated Sam was from his own family all through his childhood and his issues with his powers, the demon blood, Lucifer, Soulessness and finding out that he's been manipulated all his life has made Sam not trust in himself, so he interprets every issue he has with Dean of proof that Dean does not trust him. Sam is constantly looking for and asking Dean for his trust. He feels like a failure every time Dean even intimates in any way that Sam is not trusted. But like Dean, he will never FEEL trusted because he does not trust himself. So, no matter how much he asks Dean for his trust, he will never feel like Dean does because he does not trust himself. They are each looking for what they lack in themselves to be validated by their brother, and since the problem is internal, no matter what the other one does to prove that they are loved or trusted it falls short because they need to find that within themselves instead of asking their brother to fulfill that need for them. Not to mention that while they struggle and misunderstand and hurt one another, they are killing us all slowly with the excruciating manpain. Damn them!
Wow E, that is awesome! Spot on I think.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-20 21:57
"They are each looking for what they lack in themselves…"

I think that it's the best description I've seen of the brothers' issues, E. I agree so much.

In fact I really enjoyed all the comments. I need to get out of my frustrated Sam fan mode and remember the brothers I fell in love with during the first 3 seasons, and reading all this helped a lot . I just wish Sam had more of an emotional POV.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-20 21:57
"They are each looking for what they lack in themselves…"

I think that it's the best description I've seen of the brothers' issues, E. I agree so much.

In fact I really enjoyed all the comments. I need to get out of my frustrated Sam fan mode and remember the brothers I fell in love with during the first 3 seasons, and reading all this helped a lot . I just wish Sam had more of an emotional POV.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 23:49
Yes to that E. I think you have absolutely explained both brothers perfectly. As Crowley said to Dean "no one hates you as much as you do. Believe me I've tried." How are they ever going to come to terms with themselves?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-20 23:49
Yes to that E. I think you have absolutely explained both brothers perfectly. As Crowley said to Dean "no one hates you as much as you do. Believe me I've tried." How are they ever going to come to terms with themselves?
E
# E 2014-02-21 06:26
And the thing that I've realized recently is that the speech in Sacrifice where Sam said his "greatest sin was in how much I've let you down," and Dean's reply was "no one has ever come before you," each brother was talking about the thing that they are looking to their brother to validate the most, but can't find in themselves; for Sam it's trust and for Dean it's love. For Sam, he was looking for a validation of Dean's trust and he thought he had it in Dean's words in sacrifice. But Dean was talking about love and trying to prove to Sam that he was loved and love and trust are not the same thing. Then in the conversation in The Purge, Dean was looking for confirmation that Sam would go to the same type of extremes to save him or proof that he is loved, and Sam's statement that he wouldn't was confirmation to Dean that he ISN'T loved. I don't think that is what Sam was saying at all, but that is currently how his words are being interpreted.

The actions of both brothers since that speech have caused them to doubt not only themselves (which is nothing new) but each other. For Sam, Dean's actions with Gadreel was a shattering of the TRUST that he has always had in Dean. He's no utterly convinced now that Dean does not trust him, and has concluded that he probably never will. Conversely, Sam's comments to Dean about being selfish and "same circumstances, I wouldn't" has convinced Dean that he does not have Sam's unconditional LOVE, the thing he craves from his brother the most. I think both brothers are wrong. I think Sam is the only person that Dean DOES trust and that Sam loves his brother unconditionally . I just hope that these two figure out a way to resolve this situation. We have at least another year of this show though, so maybe we shouldn't expect them to resolve too many of their issues too soon. Besides I am loving all the sturm und drang.
E
# E 2014-02-21 06:26
And the thing that I've realized recently is that the speech in Sacrifice where Sam said his "greatest sin was in how much I've let you down," and Dean's reply was "no one has ever come before you," each brother was talking about the thing that they are looking to their brother to validate the most, but can't find in themselves; for Sam it's trust and for Dean it's love. For Sam, he was looking for a validation of Dean's trust and he thought he had it in Dean's words in sacrifice. But Dean was talking about love and trying to prove to Sam that he was loved and love and trust are not the same thing. Then in the conversation in The Purge, Dean was looking for confirmation that Sam would go to the same type of extremes to save him or proof that he is loved, and Sam's statement that he wouldn't was confirmation to Dean that he ISN'T loved. I don't think that is what Sam was saying at all, but that is currently how his words are being interpreted.

The actions of both brothers since that speech have caused them to doubt not only themselves (which is nothing new) but each other. For Sam, Dean's actions with Gadreel was a shattering of the TRUST that he has always had in Dean. He's no utterly convinced now that Dean does not trust him, and has concluded that he probably never will. Conversely, Sam's comments to Dean about being selfish and "same circumstances, I wouldn't" has convinced Dean that he does not have Sam's unconditional LOVE, the thing he craves from his brother the most. I think both brothers are wrong. I think Sam is the only person that Dean DOES trust and that Sam loves his brother unconditionally . I just hope that these two figure out a way to resolve this situation. We have at least another year of this show though, so maybe we shouldn't expect them to resolve too many of their issues too soon. Besides I am loving all the sturm und drang.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-21 11:33
Yes E that was my take as well. I think that Sam (in the Purge) was saying to Dean I love you enough to never do that to you.
I also think that Sam has been trying to redeem himself to Dean ever since Dean told him on the hospital steps (5.1) that he didn't think he could ever trust Sam again. And of course in Dean's mind Sam ran off with Ruby. Sam didn't love Dean enough to trust him. (I would like to see the false phone message, Cas letting Sam out of the panic room and all of the other manipulations that put Sam right where the Angels wanted him, dealt with. Yes like that will ever happen).
I also agree that Dean does trust his brother. Why else would he choose Sam to hunt with. And not just hunt, but who else is going to understand everything that Dean has gone through and put up with his crap.
I think also that Sam never questions Dean's love. What he wants is respect. I can't for the life of me see how JC is going to get these guys to reconcile their issues. But it really has to be done. I also agree not to soon. They have 9 seasons of issues it can't be wrapped up in 1 or 2 episodes.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-21 11:33
Yes E that was my take as well. I think that Sam (in the Purge) was saying to Dean I love you enough to never do that to you.
I also think that Sam has been trying to redeem himself to Dean ever since Dean told him on the hospital steps (5.1) that he didn't think he could ever trust Sam again. And of course in Dean's mind Sam ran off with Ruby. Sam didn't love Dean enough to trust him. (I would like to see the false phone message, Cas letting Sam out of the panic room and all of the other manipulations that put Sam right where the Angels wanted him, dealt with. Yes like that will ever happen).
I also agree that Dean does trust his brother. Why else would he choose Sam to hunt with. And not just hunt, but who else is going to understand everything that Dean has gone through and put up with his crap.
I think also that Sam never questions Dean's love. What he wants is respect. I can't for the life of me see how JC is going to get these guys to reconcile their issues. But it really has to be done. I also agree not to soon. They have 9 seasons of issues it can't be wrapped up in 1 or 2 episodes.