You know, I'm not much of a shipper all things concerned. I mean I have some opinions on which relationships work best for a character based upon what the narrative has done so far, but in general, as long as the creators put some effort into justifying the pairing, I don't care.

Still, I have to have some sympathies for Destiels as this episode started to feel like it was just outright taunting them. Like TPTB had a bucket of water in one hand and gasoline in another and which one the fires of fandom were going to get in the next scene was half the suspense of the episode.

Certainly it didn't help by a general feeling from this episode that while it had to acknowledge that 9.03 existed, 9.06 didn't want it too. We go from Dean upset over Castiel's life choices to lines mentioning that Cas was thrown out by the aforementioned Dean. Really at this point if Castiel developed a drinking problem I wouldn't blame him one bit!

But, there will be time to talk about how the general ties between this episode and "I'm no Angel"* in my soon to be separate essay. By far the best scenes were Sam, Kevin and Crowley playing housemates. I particularly like the director's and cinematographer's style when they did the bathroom-doorway-discussion scene. It was beautiful and reminds us that while the show isn't losing those drama moments any time soon, we can have those moments delivered in stylistic and interesting methods. (remember the mirror trick with Zachariah in Lucifer Rising?) Of course don't be overdoing it with shaky cam or some such nonsense, it takes the right touch of just enough but not too much. Though I did not get the face shadows at the beginning since we see the MotW's face in his next appearance anyway. Since he was a stranger, why bother with the "mystery"? Seeing his appearance would mean the same for us as not. Eh, maybe it was a metaphor about his condition or status or something. Discuss.

This episode also seems to have tanked the fan theory of Ezekiel pretending to be Sam. On the meta level I doubted it since no way the creators would do that to Jared, but now we've got some pretty solid proof just shy of outright confession (meaning the writers have left the door open to change their minds later). I mean of course the scene where Sam is interrogating Crowley over the translation. Had that really been Zeke pretending, then... why pretend? First it should go without saying that Zeke should have every reason to get back to heaven. He would at least get his wings back meaning it would be easier to go on the run so as far as all logic and evidence tells us, Zeke wants to get back home every bit as much as any other protagonist wants to send him there. Therefore: 1) As an angel he should probably be able to read the translation himself so why even bother working with a demon? He could have translated it out of sight and then returned with an excuse. 2) Even assuming he couldn't (or wouldn't) for some reason, he could then intimidate Crowley into giving up the answer. If Castiel could do so with a light show in "A Little Slice of Kevin" then it should be just as easy for Zeke to do the same. If anything it would be more frightening for Crowley since he doesn't know Zeke or his limits or his restraints as well as Castiel's. Some might point out that a lot of these points would then be countered by Crowley spilling the beans about Sam but remember that such would put the situation in a "he said/he said" mode and everyone would side with "Sam's" word over Crowley's (even if we the audience know that this time Crowley is telling the truth). In conclusion: Zeke, if he's been pretending this whole time, had a set up where he could play a big trump card with little to no cost to himself and he didn't take it. Ergo, Sam really is in there. (now whether he's being INFLUENCED by Zeke or not? that would be an interesting discussion...)

Now let's talk about Crowley! He's been a bit of an elephant in the room (and no that's not a pun about his situation). The biggest downside of season 8 was the general vagueness of the trials themselves (though I will acknowledge that it was a bit more intelligent narrative play by TPTB). For instance, where was it ever really confirmed that only 1 person had to do it or could you split the duties? (i.e. Dean - you go kill the hellhound while Sam fishes Adam out of Hell) Was there a time frame? Why not do 1 trial, then wait a year to heal and do the 2nd? The latest being, of course, well what happens if they cure Crowley now? Will that count as "completing" it for Sam? I'll have a fun explanation below but setting that aside, we still have to ask: why not "fix" Crowley? They have him locked up, they know what to do, why keep him evil? Heck as hunters, don't they have a duty to try and "save" Crowley as person? We've seen no sign that he'll "lose" his memory if cured so it's not like they couldn't fix him then have him join their battles. No good answer to these questions have been provided or even hinted at. (besides the obvious medical one that it can NOT be healthy to do all that with those needles** forget the burns, I assumed Sam was in the hospital in 9.01 because of the infections that had to be raging through him) Still the closing shot of Crowley shooting himself up with heroin blood*** hints at some later character potential; that he is wanting to be saved. Though how he got the syringe and filled it up is a bit of a plot hole. (people usually know if you prick them and steal fluids) Of course without Kevin (I think that's who the source was from) purifying himself and the Latin words spoken, the effect on Crowley is going to be minimum.

Castiel with the baby was, of course, awesome - especially watching Misha breaking his Cas voice during song and having to resort to his regular pitch. A hint that we might yet get the SPN musical episode this season or next? Actually... I hope not. Not just because I hate musicals (though their tv episodes are usually pretty good) but I think opera is much more appropriate of the show. It has the scale and grandeur best fitting for this show and is just outright cooler. No really, the common trope of "boredom at the opera" is so false to reality I wonder how it came about (well, besides the competition factor). Believe it or not, but "kill the wabbit" is far more accurate to how operas really are then what you typically see in movies/tv. So seriously crew: if you want to do a musical SPN episode don't! Do an operatic one.

Monster of the Week was kind of interesting (and showed us how very little we need those rogue reapers). I would complain about how a "medic" keeps executing people who AREN'T mortally wounded but I can give this a pass this time as it can hint at how differently the angels view the rest of the world. Maybe the pain our souls go through appear like mortal wounds to angels (giving us one other advantage humans have over them: our souls are more resilient). I was more hoping of the "ironic genie" motif in this monster and him just wanting to be helpful and give people what they want only to not get that even we don't know what we want at times. Maybe they were trying to do a bit of it there but it all went pear-shaped with his villain lecture at the end.

All in all I give this:



The scenes outside the bunker generally dragged the episode down while the ones inside pulled it up, leaving this episode as pretty average.

*Yeah I know I usually hotlink episodes but now I hate 9.03 so much I'm not even giving it that much.

**Actually... why can't they just draw a pint of blood (you know, like the red cross does all the time), do the "holy water" thing on that pint, then use that purified blood to save a demon? If the holy water thing won't work, could they have someone purify themselves first then donate, and then go through the ritual?

***Between him & S4-5 Sam, this show is getting sort of weird about the blood/drug parallels.

(crossposted @ http://natewinchester.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/episode-review-heaven-cant-wait/)

On the trials:

Actually everything with the trials does make sense if you think of it in an MMO (like World of Warcraft) setting. Namely, that when one completes a trial, that person gets a "buff" on them which causes some negatives and some positives (one negative being the reduced effectiveness of healing). The buff does have a time limit where it will fade away but, if one completes the last ritual with 3 stacks of the buff on their "character" then they "pass" and the gates of hell are shut (which the consequences of that are also rather nebulously defined). Of course once the buff wears off, you lose the negative and positive effects which is why healing is more effective on Sam now than it was before.

Though now why Dean or Castiel don't go through the trials is a mystery. With Abaddon calling in contracts hellhounds should be out and about so they just need to grab one, go get Adam out of Hell and then finish curing Crowley and there you go! Come on guys, it's not like this is all in a dungeon with a lockout or anything!


Comments  

njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-11-16 15:47
Nate - in regards to - "For instance, where was it ever really confirmed that only 1 person had to do it or could you split the duties?"

In 8.14, Kevin, in reading from the tablet, said
"Whosoever chooses to undertake these tasks should fear not danger, nor death, nor..." A word I think means getting your spine ripped out through your mouth for all eternity.

Whosoever is an archaic form of the word whoever, and whoever is singular, so I took that as meaning that one person had to complete all three trials. That's not to say someone else couldn't attempt the trials, though. In looking at the side effects of the trials, not sure if it was that Sam had such an adverse affect because of the demon blood, or is it just that anyone that attempts the trials and gets far enough along is doomed anyway. One thing that did occur to me, though; in 8.17 Goodbye Stranger - Castiel mentioned that Sam was damaged in ways that even he couldn't heal. Assuming that angels have similar healing capabilities (archangels and angels of mercy aside), what if Zeke can't cure Sam, or is the fact that he is possessing him (and the time he has possessed him) changes the equation?

As far as curing/not curing Crowley, IMO the smart play is not to cure him; might need his help in stopping Abaddon down the road.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-11-16 15:47
Nate - in regards to - "For instance, where was it ever really confirmed that only 1 person had to do it or could you split the duties?"

In 8.14, Kevin, in reading from the tablet, said
"Whosoever chooses to undertake these tasks should fear not danger, nor death, nor..." A word I think means getting your spine ripped out through your mouth for all eternity.

Whosoever is an archaic form of the word whoever, and whoever is singular, so I took that as meaning that one person had to complete all three trials. That's not to say someone else couldn't attempt the trials, though. In looking at the side effects of the trials, not sure if it was that Sam had such an adverse affect because of the demon blood, or is it just that anyone that attempts the trials and gets far enough along is doomed anyway. One thing that did occur to me, though; in 8.17 Goodbye Stranger - Castiel mentioned that Sam was damaged in ways that even he couldn't heal. Assuming that angels have similar healing capabilities (archangels and angels of mercy aside), what if Zeke can't cure Sam, or is the fact that he is possessing him (and the time he has possessed him) changes the equation?

As far as curing/not curing Crowley, IMO the smart play is not to cure him; might need his help in stopping Abaddon down the road.
Luciano
# Luciano 2013-11-16 16:22
Well the whole point is for none to die soooooo
y wuld dey do d trials after wad has been said in season 8
Luciano
# Luciano 2013-11-16 16:22
Well the whole point is for none to die soooooo
y wuld dey do d trials after wad has been said in season 8
Mick
# Mick 2013-11-16 19:39
I think they don't want to cure Crowley because they simply want to kill him when all is said and done, and I think there is a fundamental difference between killing the demon and the a remorseful purified soul.

The Destiel shippers can suck an egg, they have become so utterly annoying (and assholish), that they make me kind of embarrassed to be a fan of this show. Sexual subtext to them seems to be "Dean looks at Cas, clearly they have to bone."
Mick
# Mick 2013-11-16 19:39
I think they don't want to cure Crowley because they simply want to kill him when all is said and done, and I think there is a fundamental difference between killing the demon and the a remorseful purified soul.

The Destiel shippers can suck an egg, they have become so utterly annoying (and assholish), that they make me kind of embarrassed to be a fan of this show. Sexual subtext to them seems to be "Dean looks at Cas, clearly they have to bone."
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-11-16 21:35
If you watch closely after filling Crowley's bowl, you can see Sam lie a vial on the table that still has some of Kevin's blood in it. In a shot later, it's gone. It never even occurred to me that Zeke is pretending to be Sam. I don't think that's the case. My thought was that he heard Dean's prayer and maybe, just maybe, he is one of the good angels out there. I mean they can't all be assholes can they? Angels are suppose to be good. Castiel is/was.
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-11-16 21:35
If you watch closely after filling Crowley's bowl, you can see Sam lie a vial on the table that still has some of Kevin's blood in it. In a shot later, it's gone. It never even occurred to me that Zeke is pretending to be Sam. I don't think that's the case. My thought was that he heard Dean's prayer and maybe, just maybe, he is one of the good angels out there. I mean they can't all be assholes can they? Angels are suppose to be good. Castiel is/was.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-16 22:00
Nate, this is a fun review. I have to agree the rules of just about everything are getting shakier by the week but still it is fun to try and shore them up (or find that they aren't shaky at all) until another writer decides to ignore that rule altogether.

I don't see the Destiel, never really have, this entire ep was so Dad & Son that Destiel practically looks like adopted-wincest , sooo yeah no. Personally I wish the writers would stop with the new-fake-relati onship-every-we ek between them altogether and allow them to go back to being friends / brothers. Castiel is several thousand years old. Dean is not. Dean is not a good role model for how to be a normal person (nor is Sam). Please, show, let Castiel become a real person. Thank you.

I never thought that Sam was gone and Zeke faking it. However there seems to be a rule here that is extremely useful, and only seems to apply to Samzekiel. And that is that the supernatural creatures can't tell that Zeke is there if Sam is in charge. The soldier demons didn't know, nor did the reaper or Crowley. That is very useful camouflage for Zeke, and we don't know at all what he might be getting up to outside of Dean's sight. Like nudging Sam to go for a run so that he can meet with someone? Or making it so Sam doesn't notice the missing syringe until it is too late. In general it is in Zeke's interest to allow Sam to be in charge. 'Course he might not be up to anything at all.

I think once the trials started the person doing them just continues to get weaker (and with a lot of pain) until they are completed. Sam said in one episode that he wasn't going to get better until they were over. I think he knew all along the trials were going to kill him so he just needed to get it finished and not let on to Dean. Of course that didn't work out.

Why would Cas or Dean do the trials? I don't understand what makes it different for them than for Sam. You do the trials you die.

If they do opera it would have to be Grand Guignol really wouldn't it?
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-16 22:00
Nate, this is a fun review. I have to agree the rules of just about everything are getting shakier by the week but still it is fun to try and shore them up (or find that they aren't shaky at all) until another writer decides to ignore that rule altogether.

I don't see the Destiel, never really have, this entire ep was so Dad & Son that Destiel practically looks like adopted-wincest , sooo yeah no. Personally I wish the writers would stop with the new-fake-relati onship-every-we ek between them altogether and allow them to go back to being friends / brothers. Castiel is several thousand years old. Dean is not. Dean is not a good role model for how to be a normal person (nor is Sam). Please, show, let Castiel become a real person. Thank you.

I never thought that Sam was gone and Zeke faking it. However there seems to be a rule here that is extremely useful, and only seems to apply to Samzekiel. And that is that the supernatural creatures can't tell that Zeke is there if Sam is in charge. The soldier demons didn't know, nor did the reaper or Crowley. That is very useful camouflage for Zeke, and we don't know at all what he might be getting up to outside of Dean's sight. Like nudging Sam to go for a run so that he can meet with someone? Or making it so Sam doesn't notice the missing syringe until it is too late. In general it is in Zeke's interest to allow Sam to be in charge. 'Course he might not be up to anything at all.

I think once the trials started the person doing them just continues to get weaker (and with a lot of pain) until they are completed. Sam said in one episode that he wasn't going to get better until they were over. I think he knew all along the trials were going to kill him so he just needed to get it finished and not let on to Dean. Of course that didn't work out.

Why would Cas or Dean do the trials? I don't understand what makes it different for them than for Sam. You do the trials you die.

If they do opera it would have to be Grand Guignol really wouldn't it?
Mick
# Mick 2013-11-17 01:40
Quoting jarielynn:
If you watch closely after filling Crowley's bowl, you can see Sam lie a vial on the table that still has some of Kevin's blood in it. In a shot later, it's gone. It never even occurred to me that Zeke is pretending to be Sam. I don't think that's the case. My thought was that he heard Dean's prayer and maybe, just maybe, he is one of the good angels out there. I mean they can't all be assholes can they? Angels are suppose to be good. Castiel is/was.


My current theory is Zeke was a part of/leader of one of the many factions that were trying to get control of Heaven. That could explain why, he doesn't want to be found by angels and why he could have cooked up a plan to use Sam as a vessel.
Mick
# Mick 2013-11-17 01:40
Quote:
If you watch closely after filling Crowley's bowl, you can see Sam lie a vial on the table that still has some of Kevin's blood in it. In a shot later, it's gone. It never even occurred to me that Zeke is pretending to be Sam. I don't think that's the case. My thought was that he heard Dean's prayer and maybe, just maybe, he is one of the good angels out there. I mean they can't all be assholes can they? Angels are suppose to be good. Castiel is/was.
My current theory is Zeke was a part of/leader of one of the many factions that were trying to get control of Heaven. That could explain why, he doesn't want to be found by angels and why he could have cooked up a plan to use Sam as a vessel.
E
# E 2013-11-17 21:47
Quoting Nate: "He would at least get his wings back meaning it would be easier to go on the run so as far as all logic and evidence tells us, Zeke wants to get back home every bit as much as any other protagonist wants to send him there. Therefore: 1) As an angel he should probably be able to read the translation himself so why even bother working with a demon? He could have translated it out of sight and then returned with an excuse."

Actually, we have no idea that Zeke wants to get back into heaven. It's already been insinuated that he's somehow opposed to Bart so maybe the angels falling was the best thing that ever happened to him and the very last thing he wants is to go back. Secondly, he CAN'T read the angel table himself, none of the angels can which was the whole point of the tablets. The demons can't read the demon tablets, and the angels can't read the angel tablets as a stopgap measure of safety that was built in exactly for the scenario that we have now. That is why there are prophets out there. Perhaps there is another prophet waiting to be discovered who can read the angel tablet. How do we even know that Kevin is supposed to be able to read it, maybe he's only supposed to be able to read the demon tablet.

"Why not do 1 trial, then wait a year to heal and do the 2nd?"

I thought it was made pretty clear after the second trial that delaying was only making Sam sicker. Dean kept trying to get Sam to rest and recover and it clearly wasn't working as evidenced by Sam's collapse in The Great Escapist. Once he discovered what the third trial was and began moving forward towards it he felt and looked distinctly healthier. Delaying things wouldn't have worked IMO.

" why not "fix" Crowley? They have him locked up, they know what to do, why keep him evil? Heck as hunters, don't they have a duty to try and "save" Crowley as person? We've seen no sign that he'll "lose" his memory if cured so it's not like they couldn't fix him then have him join their battles. No good answer to these questions have been provided or even hinted at."

My understanding of this situation was that curing Crowley means finishing the trial, period, since it was established that they are one in the same. I don't remember Kevin ever discussing a "time limit" on the trial completion, so I would assume that it's still in play and always will be. They can't cure Crowley now, it's too much of a risk to Sam. But what if Crowley cures himself? He's got more reason than ever to want the gates of hell closed, especially if he can close down Abbadon and managed to keep himself topside by being human at the same time. That could be an interesting development.

"A hint that we might yet get the SPN musical episode this season or next? Actually... I hope not. Not just because I hate musicals (though their tv episodes are usually pretty good) but I think opera is much more appropriate of the show. It has the scale and grandeur best fitting for this show and is just outright cooler. No really, the common trope of "boredom at the opera" is so false to reality I wonder how it came about (well, besides the competition factor)."

Heh!! I HAD to comment on this! You are speaking my language! I am an opera singer and attend the opera regularly… it is by far the most dramatic medium out there; all other mediums are tame by comparison. I think Opera would suit Supernatural to a 't'!

Still don't get why you hate 9.03 so much ????
E
# E 2013-11-17 21:47
Quoting Nate: "He would at least get his wings back meaning it would be easier to go on the run so as far as all logic and evidence tells us, Zeke wants to get back home every bit as much as any other protagonist wants to send him there. Therefore: 1) As an angel he should probably be able to read the translation himself so why even bother working with a demon? He could have translated it out of sight and then returned with an excuse."

Actually, we have no idea that Zeke wants to get back into heaven. It's already been insinuated that he's somehow opposed to Bart so maybe the angels falling was the best thing that ever happened to him and the very last thing he wants is to go back. Secondly, he CAN'T read the angel table himself, none of the angels can which was the whole point of the tablets. The demons can't read the demon tablets, and the angels can't read the angel tablets as a stopgap measure of safety that was built in exactly for the scenario that we have now. That is why there are prophets out there. Perhaps there is another prophet waiting to be discovered who can read the angel tablet. How do we even know that Kevin is supposed to be able to read it, maybe he's only supposed to be able to read the demon tablet.

"Why not do 1 trial, then wait a year to heal and do the 2nd?"

I thought it was made pretty clear after the second trial that delaying was only making Sam sicker. Dean kept trying to get Sam to rest and recover and it clearly wasn't working as evidenced by Sam's collapse in The Great Escapist. Once he discovered what the third trial was and began moving forward towards it he felt and looked distinctly healthier. Delaying things wouldn't have worked IMO.

" why not "fix" Crowley? They have him locked up, they know what to do, why keep him evil? Heck as hunters, don't they have a duty to try and "save" Crowley as person? We've seen no sign that he'll "lose" his memory if cured so it's not like they couldn't fix him then have him join their battles. No good answer to these questions have been provided or even hinted at."

My understanding of this situation was that curing Crowley means finishing the trial, period, since it was established that they are one in the same. I don't remember Kevin ever discussing a "time limit" on the trial completion, so I would assume that it's still in play and always will be. They can't cure Crowley now, it's too much of a risk to Sam. But what if Crowley cures himself? He's got more reason than ever to want the gates of hell closed, especially if he can close down Abbadon and managed to keep himself topside by being human at the same time. That could be an interesting development.

"A hint that we might yet get the SPN musical episode this season or next? Actually... I hope not. Not just because I hate musicals (though their tv episodes are usually pretty good) but I think opera is much more appropriate of the show. It has the scale and grandeur best fitting for this show and is just outright cooler. No really, the common trope of "boredom at the opera" is so false to reality I wonder how it came about (well, besides the competition factor)."

Heh!! I HAD to comment on this! You are speaking my language! I am an opera singer and attend the opera regularly… it is by far the most dramatic medium out there; all other mediums are tame by comparison. I think Opera would suit Supernatural to a 't'!

Still don't get why you hate 9.03 so much ????
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-17 23:31
Quote:
How do we even know that Kevin is supposed to be able to read it, maybe he's only supposed to be able to read the demon tablet.
And the Purgatory Tablet. I think the issue is that Metatron's spell ISN'T a tablet and as such it was never meant to be read by a prophet. It does look like either Metatron planned the takeover of heaven a long way in advance or that they never had the real angel tablet and Metatron just pulled a switcharoo.

As to curing Crowley, they left that fairly unclear last season. All of the other trials had to be completed by Sam chanting a verse, so possibly they could cure Crowley, not chant and Sam would be fine. One of Dean's arguments was that they knew how to cure demons now, so shutting the Gates of Hell was not as needed. The other option, of course, is for Dean to cure Crowley and bring him into the fold, but I don't think we are supposed to think too closely about that. The other problem is that the film of the first demon being cured made it look like once the demon was cured the guilt was so overwhelming that it wanted to die, as in Ephraim would have had a REAL job instead of an overly emotional teenager. I think that was why Sam had the gun in the outtake, he was going to give Crowley the option to kill himself.

I don't have much feeling one way or the other about a musical episode, except my impression (and I could be totally wrong) is that Jared can't sing very well. I know in the Buffy musical episode Allison Hannigan (Willow) flat out refused to sing. If Jared can't sing then a musical episode would not work very well.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-17 23:31
Quote:
How do we even know that Kevin is supposed to be able to read it, maybe he's only supposed to be able to read the demon tablet.
And the Purgatory Tablet. I think the issue is that Metatron's spell ISN'T a tablet and as such it was never meant to be read by a prophet. It does look like either Metatron planned the takeover of heaven a long way in advance or that they never had the real angel tablet and Metatron just pulled a switcharoo.

As to curing Crowley, they left that fairly unclear last season. All of the other trials had to be completed by Sam chanting a verse, so possibly they could cure Crowley, not chant and Sam would be fine. One of Dean's arguments was that they knew how to cure demons now, so shutting the Gates of Hell was not as needed. The other option, of course, is for Dean to cure Crowley and bring him into the fold, but I don't think we are supposed to think too closely about that. The other problem is that the film of the first demon being cured made it look like once the demon was cured the guilt was so overwhelming that it wanted to die, as in Ephraim would have had a REAL job instead of an overly emotional teenager. I think that was why Sam had the gun in the outtake, he was going to give Crowley the option to kill himself.

I don't have much feeling one way or the other about a musical episode, except my impression (and I could be totally wrong) is that Jared can't sing very well. I know in the Buffy musical episode Allison Hannigan (Willow) flat out refused to sing. If Jared can't sing then a musical episode would not work very well.
Mick
# Mick 2013-11-17 23:36
Quoting E:
Quoting Nate: "He would at least get his wings back meaning it would be easier to go on the run so as far as all logic and evidence tells us, Zeke wants to get back home every bit as much as any other protagonist wants to send him there. Therefore: 1) As an angel he should probably be able to read the translation himself so why even bother working with a demon? He could have translated it out of sight and then returned with an excuse."

Actually, we have no idea that Zeke wants to get back into heaven. It's already been insinuated that he's somehow opposed to Bart so maybe the angels falling was the best thing that ever happened to him and the very last thing he wants is to go back. Secondly, he CAN'T read the angel table himself, none of the angels can which was the whole point of the tablets. The demons can't read the demon tablets, and the angels can't read the angel tablets as a stopgap measure of safety that was built in exactly for the scenario that we have now. That is why there are prophets out there. Perhaps there is another prophet waiting to be discovered who can read the angel tablet. How do we even know that Kevin is supposed to be able to read it, maybe he's only supposed to be able to read the demon tablet.


Actually there is only one prophet at a time, when Kevin dies a new one will spring up. And they reason they got Crowley to translate, was because Kevin translated the footnotes into a cuneiform, and Crowley understands ancients texts. But there's really no way Zeke could have given a translation without raising eyebrows of everyone, Sam included.
Mick
# Mick 2013-11-17 23:36
Quote:
Quoting Nate: "He would at least get his wings back meaning it would be easier to go on the run so as far as all logic and evidence tells us, Zeke wants to get back home every bit as much as any other protagonist wants to send him there. Therefore: 1) As an angel he should probably be able to read the translation himself so why even bother working with a demon? He could have translated it out of sight and then returned with an excuse."

Actually, we have no idea that Zeke wants to get back into heaven. It's already been insinuated that he's somehow opposed to Bart so maybe the angels falling was the best thing that ever happened to him and the very last thing he wants is to go back. Secondly, he CAN'T read the angel table himself, none of the angels can which was the whole point of the tablets. The demons can't read the demon tablets, and the angels can't read the angel tablets as a stopgap measure of safety that was built in exactly for the scenario that we have now. That is why there are prophets out there. Perhaps there is another prophet waiting to be discovered who can read the angel tablet. How do we even know that Kevin is supposed to be able to read it, maybe he's only supposed to be able to read the demon tablet.
Actually there is only one prophet at a time, when Kevin dies a new one will spring up. And they reason they got Crowley to translate, was because Kevin translated the footnotes into a cuneiform, and Crowley understands ancients texts. But there's really no way Zeke could have given a translation without raising eyebrows of everyone, Sam included.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-18 00:22
Quoting percysowner:

I don't have much feeling one way or the other about a musical episode, except my impression (and I could be totally wrong) is that Jared can't sing very well. I know in the Buffy musical episode Allison Hannigan (Willow) flat out refused to sing. If Jared can't sing then a musical episode would not work very well.

I know it is heresy but .... I don't think that the singing or most of the songs in Once More with Feeling are that amazingly good. The girl who played Dawn and Anthony Head (who is a professional singer) both had good songs that they could sing, but honestly (apart from Glee, which I haven't watched) most shows don't have an entire principle cast who can sing and SPN is in that category. I suppose Jensen and Mark Sheppard (I believe he can sing) could sing to each other for the whole show? I think Jared would refuse to do it, he never claims to be a singer. Overall I can't see SPN really being able to pull it off (I could be wrong ;-) )- Joss Whedon (or Aaron Sorkin) might get away with it...
But it isn't even the singers - it is hard to write good songs for a show!
But the gag reel would be awesome :D
Now DANCING on the other hand - I would love to see if any of those guys can dance!
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-18 00:22
Quote:

I don't have much feeling one way or the other about a musical episode, except my impression (and I could be totally wrong) is that Jared can't sing very well. I know in the Buffy musical episode Allison Hannigan (Willow) flat out refused to sing. If Jared can't sing then a musical episode would not work very well.
I know it is heresy but .... I don't think that the singing or most of the songs in Once More with Feeling are that amazingly good. The girl who played Dawn and Anthony Head (who is a professional singer) both had good songs that they could sing, but honestly (apart from Glee, which I haven't watched) most shows don't have an entire principle cast who can sing and SPN is in that category. I suppose Jensen and Mark Sheppard (I believe he can sing) could sing to each other for the whole show? I think Jared would refuse to do it, he never claims to be a singer. Overall I can't see SPN really being able to pull it off (I could be wrong ;-) )- Joss Whedon (or Aaron Sorkin) might get away with it...
But it isn't even the singers - it is hard to write good songs for a show!
But the gag reel would be awesome :D
Now DANCING on the other hand - I would love to see if any of those guys can dance!
E
# E 2013-11-18 08:24
Jared has claimed many times at cons that he can't sing, but at Van Con 2012 he sang the State Song (with encouragement from Jensen!), which was not only utterly adorable, but showed that the man can at least stay in key for the most part. He may not be a trained singer, but he does alright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miYHDP0bZBc
E
# E 2013-11-18 08:24
Jared has claimed many times at cons that he can't sing, but at Van Con 2012 he sang the State Song (with encouragement from Jensen!), which was not only utterly adorable, but showed that the man can at least stay in key for the most part. He may not be a trained singer, but he does alright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miYHDP0bZBc
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-11-18 11:12
jarielynn - Thanks! I must have blinked and missed that sleight of hand.

Quote:
Actually, we have no idea that Zeke wants to get back into heaven. It's already been insinuated that he's somehow opposed to Bart so maybe the angels falling was the best thing that ever happened to him and the very last thing he wants is to go back. Secondly, he CAN'T read the angel table himself, none of the angels can which was the whole point of the tablets.
What Mick said above. It seems that if Crowley, who should be younger than most any other angel, can read cuneiform then just about any angel should be able to as well (though if some angels were illiterate... ok that would be funny). Still, even if Zeke doesn't want to get back to Heaven it would be in his interest to translate the text then so he knows how to foil the plan (if possible).

Quote:
Still don't get why you hate 9.03 so much ????
Hopefully this: http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18191-how-i-m-no-angel-could-have-been-divine will answer that question.

Quote:
But there's really no way Zeke could have given a translation without raising eyebrows of everyone, Sam included.
Yes, that is IF he is separate and apart from Sam, which I think this episode confirms. If he has just been pretending to be Sam all this time, then he had several possible solutions such as "framing" Crowley for providing it.

Forgot to mention, anyone else somewhat annoyed by Dean not telling Cas the truth about the spell? I could see some reasons why maybe he wouldn't but if they were true, the show didn't do a good job expressing them.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-11-18 11:12
jarielynn - Thanks! I must have blinked and missed that sleight of hand.

Quote:
Actually, we have no idea that Zeke wants to get back into heaven. It's already been insinuated that he's somehow opposed to Bart so maybe the angels falling was the best thing that ever happened to him and the very last thing he wants is to go back. Secondly, he CAN'T read the angel table himself, none of the angels can which was the whole point of the tablets.
What Mick said above. It seems that if Crowley, who should be younger than most any other angel, can read cuneiform then just about any angel should be able to as well (though if some angels were illiterate... ok that would be funny). Still, even if Zeke doesn't want to get back to Heaven it would be in his interest to translate the text then so he knows how to foil the plan (if possible).

Quote:
Still don't get why you hate 9.03 so much ????
Hopefully this: http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/129-season-nine/18191-how-i-m-no-angel-could-have-been-divine will answer that question.

Quote:
But there's really no way Zeke could have given a translation without raising eyebrows of everyone, Sam included.
Yes, that is IF he is separate and apart from Sam, which I think this episode confirms. If he has just been pretending to be Sam all this time, then he had several possible solutions such as "framing" Crowley for providing it.

Forgot to mention, anyone else somewhat annoyed by Dean not telling Cas the truth about the spell? I could see some reasons why maybe he wouldn't but if they were true, the show didn't do a good job expressing them.
ME
# ME 2013-11-19 08:25
Interesting points Nate.
On curing Crowley...my understanding is (or maybe it's a fanwank) they could still cure Crowley without finishing the trials. Basically, the Enochian verse that Sam spoke at the end of each trial was supposed to complete each trial (that's also when the ill-effects took hold). So, if they continue to "cure" Crowley but don't say the verse, I don't think anything adverse should happen to Sam. Also, Dean could do the curing if they really wanted to cure him and were worried about how it would effect Sam.
I have a much larger problem with the idea of curing a demon--it just seems too easy to force something not to be evil when, for me anyway, evil is evil. I'm hoping that Crowley injecting himself with the prophet blood is his own attempt at redemption, no redemption being forced on him. But I guess that's a discussion for another day, since we don't really know where this is heading exactly yet.
ME
# ME 2013-11-19 08:25
Interesting points Nate.
On curing Crowley...my understanding is (or maybe it's a fanwank) they could still cure Crowley without finishing the trials. Basically, the Enochian verse that Sam spoke at the end of each trial was supposed to complete each trial (that's also when the ill-effects took hold). So, if they continue to "cure" Crowley but don't say the verse, I don't think anything adverse should happen to Sam. Also, Dean could do the curing if they really wanted to cure him and were worried about how it would effect Sam.
I have a much larger problem with the idea of curing a demon--it just seems too easy to force something not to be evil when, for me anyway, evil is evil. I'm hoping that Crowley injecting himself with the prophet blood is his own attempt at redemption, no redemption being forced on him. But I guess that's a discussion for another day, since we don't really know where this is heading exactly yet.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-11-19 14:35
@ME - There's a whole debate on context of the show vs context of wider theology and philosophy. ;-) Such as is evil a thing separate and apart or is it a corruption/para site of good? Whole libraries can filled with books addressing that. lol

I mean there's whole books that could be written on the Calvinistic imagery in the last two seasons of SPN vs other Christianity motifs, but that's all tempting a huge flame war.
Nate Winchester
# Nate Winchester 2013-11-19 14:35
@ME - There's a whole debate on context of the show vs context of wider theology and philosophy. ;-) Such as is evil a thing separate and apart or is it a corruption/para site of good? Whole libraries can filled with books addressing that. lol

I mean there's whole books that could be written on the Calvinistic imagery in the last two seasons of SPN vs other Christianity motifs, but that's all tempting a huge flame war.