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There were so many good things about this episode, I’m not sure where to start! The pacing was just right, we got to see a few old friends (Bobby and Benny!!), we got to see a little more of that beautiful Purgatory camera filter (I just love it.), we got a little Crowley and a whole lot of excellent plot advancement.

Let’s start with our second-favorite prophet, Kevin. It’s no secret he’s been abusing his body and mind with his awful sleeping schedule, pharmaceutical reinforcements and tablet obsession. So it doesn’t come as a huge shock that he’s starting to lose his marbles. But the big question in my mind is that I’m not sure how much of what we saw was a hallucination? Was Crowley ever really in his head? I have to agree with Dean that if Crowley had any inclination of where Kevin was housed, he’d do a lot more than simply mess with his head. And the end of the episode seems to suggest that Crowley did just that. Part of me (a large part) thinks that the scene between Crowley and Kevin is real but a small part of me still wonders if Kevin has lost it completely. What do you all think? Crowley did some serious damage to the windows of that boat, but when Sam and Dean return everything is cleaned up and back to normal. I know Crowley is the all-powerful King of Hell so fixing a few windows isn’t a huge deal. But why bother? In his mind, wouldn’t Sam and Dean assume that if Kevin’s missing then Crowley must have taken him? Or maybe Kevin was right and Crowley was watching his every move, waiting for the perfect moment to sweep in and take him away. I can’t decide!

Perhaps the only person missing from this episode was Castiel. We still don’t know where our feathered friend is hiding, but we know he has the angel tablet with him. We did, however, have a visit from Naomi who tried everything to convince Sam and Dean that she can be trusted. We all remember that for a while there, Cass had really lost it. But I think we can rule out any questions about Castiel’s sanity. We saw Naomi manipulate Castiel time and time again. We saw similar things happening to Alphie. So I’m not buying her story and I only hope Sam and Dean aren’t either. I am happy that she appeared when she did to help Sam complete his second trial and get Bobby into Heaven. But I still don’t trust her as far as I can throw her.

Sam’s second trial involved a trip to Purgatory followed by a trip to Hell. Purgatory we had seen, but as I mentioned I was happy to see it again. There is something so cool about the way they shoot those scenes; the coloring, the lighting...I wish I knew the technical terms to describe it, but I don’t! But this was our first time visiting Hell. It looked very much like sets we’ve seen before on Supernatural. In fact it might be the same set used in Caged Heat. But they definitely cranked it up to 11. The dark and moody lighting provided the perfect atmosphere but the horrible screams filling the air really kicked up the creep-factor. Not to mention the bloody woman chained to the wall, begging for help. I will be the first to admit that it was a little funny how quickly and easily Sam was able to locate Bobby and free him from Hell, but for time's sake I am willing to overlook it.

It was great to see Bobby again, wasn’t it? I thought I recognized that backside from the preview last week but I wasn’t sure. And I certainly didn’t want to get my hopes up. I think the writers did a great job of giving us a little much-needed Bobby Singer time while still giving us an acceptable explanation of why he can’t stay. They burned his bones, we saw it. There is nothing to tie Bobby to the Earth. But as Bobby said, “No reason to think I won’t see you again sometime down the road.”

I was a little surprised to have Bobby bring up the fact that Sam didn’t look for Dean. I thought we had closed the books on that issue. I must admit, I wasn’t totally satisfied with where the writers left it originally so I was glad to have Bobby bring it up again.

Bobby: It must of been hell, you not being able to get him out all that time...You did try to get him out, right?
Sam: “Dean and I have an agreement.”
Bobby: “I know that agreement. I taught you that agreement. It’s a non-agreement. I get the feeling a lot must have happened while I was gone.”

I don’t want to open old wounds where this conversation is concerned but here I go! I still don’t know why Sam didn’t look for Dean. I get what they want us to think, that it’s because he just needed to settle down and find a little normalcy, and I certainly don’t blame Sam for that. I think he deserves it. But I can’t buy that Sam Winchester wouldn’t even go looking for Dean, not knowing where he was or how he may have been suffering. I just don’t think that the Sam I’ve come to know over the years could live with himself. The Sam I know sacrifices his own happiness for his brother, even though it’s not fair. There, I said it! And I’m glad Bobby said it too. Anyone else feel like they just got zapped back in time to one of my earlier reviews?

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I was really happy to see Benny again and sorry to see him go. He has been a great friend to Dean and I was so happy that Sam had a chance to see the good in Benny. I understood his suspicions where Benny is concerned. He is a vampire after all. But Benny proved himself time and time again and I’m glad that Sam was there to see it this time. Dean didn’t burn Benny’s bones so it’s possible that we’ll see our friend again. Maybe next season? I would love that. Benny was a great addition to the cast this season and I would hate to see such a good character go to waste. What did you guys think? Are you glad to see Benny go? Do you want him to come back in the future?

So here’s where we sit: Sam has two trials under his belt. His physical strength took a hit after he completed the first trial and there’s no telling what the second one has done to his body. Maybe it just made him weaker, maybe it did something else? I floated the idea that as the trials go on he may be affected mentally. I still think it’s a possibility but I guess we’ll have to wait and see. We still don’t know what the third trial is, the tablet is hidden away and Kevin is gone. Whether he left or was taken by Crowley, I’m not sure. But the fact is that Sam and Dean need him. They really can’t do anything without him since he’s the only one who knows the location of the tablet and how to read it. I think they are screwed for the time being. I am guessing that Naomi will help them track Kevin down as a part of her quest to win their trust. What do you think? Did you enjoy this episode as much as I did? Any guesses about what we have to look forward to as this season wraps up? (Ugh! I’m not ready!)

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Next week looks like it’s going to be interesting! Charlie is back and stuck in some kind of deadly game with Dean and Sam. I wonder if we’ll get much of a tie-in with the current story arc or if this will be more of a standalone episode. Either way, it looks like it’s going to be good.

Time to talk about awesome quotes. There were a lot in this episode!

Crowley: “I’m in you head as well as everywhere else.”
That opening hallucination was very creepy! Poor Kevin.

Kevin: “An innocent soul has to be rescued from Hell and delivered unto Heaven.”
Dean: “What?”
Kevin: “Unto. That’s how God talks.”

Dean: “What happened to the hot chicks?”

Ajay: “If you’re on the king of Hell’s no fly list, no way you cruise the friendly skies.”
I was a little bummed that Ajay got killed. I thought his character was kind of fun. But you just don’t freelance with a Winchester!

Ajay: “Take my hand”
Sam: “It gets creepier.”

Dean: “The other guys have got it easy...you and me have got to carry a little extra weight.”

Kevin: “I’m gonna be in my room. Let me know when there’s a good day.”
Dean: “That’s my pie.”

Crowley: “As you know, patience isn’t one of my virtues. Well, I don’t have any virtues. But if I did, I’m certain that patience wouldn’t be one.”

Bobby’s Mall of America pedicure. Enough said.

Crowley refers to Sam as Winchester, jumbo size. He comes up with the best nicknames.

Sam: “You knew somehow, right?”
Bobby: “Took a chance. 50/50”

Bobby: “Where are we?”
Sam: “Don’t get all pissed off.... Purgatory”
Bobby: “Balls!”

Benny: “When Dean Winchester asks for a favor, he’s not screwing around.”

Dean: “I owe you.”
Benny: “You don’t owe me nothing. The truth is, I could use a break”

Benny looks like he knows something Dean doesn’t.

Sam and Dean’s awesome man-hug. They get me every time with that!

I loved when Sam and Dean both attempt to approach Crowley after he talks badly about Bobby.
Crowley: “Really?”
And he just flicks them away like bugs. I can’t help it, I just love to hate Crowley.

Crowley: “You people never seem to understand you are nothing. Fleeting blips of light. I am forever.”

 

 

Comments  

PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-04-04 16:26
Well, at least we now know why Naomi didn't want Cas to kill Sam-the trials. She obviously wants them to close Hell & knew Sam on deck to do it. It makes more sense now; why she only had Cas practice killing Dean. I think she works with whomever she deems useful.

I will admit I cried when Dean killed Benny. I didn't want him to have to do that. Plus It was pretty obvious that Benny wouldn't want to come back. I was hoping for more Benny. But, maybe they will bring him back next year.

There was so much in this episode. They could have made two out of it. It does look like another filler next week. Kind of surprises me since we are so close to the end game for the season here.
I don't normally speculate; but this is the let's speculate thread, right? Is it me, or does anyone else notice that both trials lit up Sam's arm/hand like the 4th? Just his arm though. Maybe closing Hell means litrerally closing something & he is being prepped for it? I can't wait to find out, that is for sure. I guess we won't see Cas again this season either. I still say it would be great if Chuck was Metatron. (Him being a writer.) It just fits. I would love to see Rob Benedict back also. I am loving this season!!!
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-04-04 16:44
Quote:

I don't normally speculate; but this is the let's speculate thread, right? Is it me, or does anyone else notice that both trials lit up Sam's arm/hand like the 4th? Just his arm though. Maybe closing Hell means litrerally closing something & he is being prepped for it? I can't wait to find out, that is for sure.
Yes, God's trials and both times his RIGHT hand..
maximus3311
# maximus3311 2013-04-04 16:48
Really enjoyed the episode as well although I've got to admit I was sort of thrown off by how easily Sam found Bobby. Sure, they could have just done the "quick find" for time...but I feel like they could have done *something* to indicate that Sam really did have to search (or at least have some means for tracking Bobby...I.e. "when you get down there here's a spell you can use to locate any soul"). Just seemed a bit rushed for me.

Otherwise great episode. Hope to see Bobby and Benny back somewhere down the road.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-04-05 00:45
I enjoyed it too.

One thought - I don't think it was actually that quick. Don't forget - a month up top is ten years in Hell. So, one 24 hour period up top is 4 months (if I have my math right?). And, it also had to have taken them days to get through Purgatory and to the hole back top - since Dean drove all the way to Maine and was waiting for them.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-04-04 17:53
The technique used during the Purgatory sequence is called "desaturation" (of color) and the graininess of the film is amped up a little. I'm not completely clear on all the technical terms either but I did encounter these two words from reading a lot of books about how various movies got made.

I still think kevin just went crazy and ran off. I think he was hallucinating. Of course i could be wrong as has always known where he was and it seems like the sort of thing she would do.

She's only helping the Winchesters because she wants those Hellgates closed and will use anybody to do it. If I were dean I'd trust her only so far and use her right back.
sofia
# sofia 2013-04-04 23:26
Thanks for clarifying the technical terms for me! Whatever it is, I love it!
Lynnette
# Lynnette 2013-04-04 19:22
I'm of the opinion that it was Naomi who was messing with Kevin's head & he just ran off. The place wasn't angel proofed & Naomi has a history of messing with minds. I am, however, glad she saved Bobby's soul. I know she just did it for her own agenda, but still.

I wasn't terribly impressed by hell. *shrugs* But whatever, you work with what you've got. I do love Purgatory & I'm glad Sam & Bobby had to be in it, if only for a little while.

I. Love. Benny. I'm terribly sad he had to die, but he went out a Big Damn Hero & at least now Sam knows why Dean trusted him. Monster or not, Benny is a good man & he NEVER let Dean down. I'm glad they gave us the possibility of Benny coming back by having Dean bury instead of burn him. I'd love to have him come back at some point.

As always, I love everything Crowley chooses to be.

Great review! :)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-04 20:35
I concur with everything you wrote, Lynnette - I too, thought it had to be Naomi posing as Crowley to freak Kevin out. We had that one scene with Crowley in his office, and he didn't seem to know what was going on with Kevin. I think Naomi is the one pulling most of the strings here. The only place I differ from you in opinion is regarding the lack of interest in the Hell scenes - to me, it had a true haunted house feel to it - I was kinda creeped out. Maybe that's just because I'm sensitive, though, lol.
sofia
# sofia 2013-04-04 23:28
Lynette, my notes on the episode literally said "I. Love. Benny." So funny. I really do hope we see him again soon!
elle
# elle 2013-04-04 19:30
Good review!
There were some awesome quotes in this episode, I agree. And that pedicure thing - awesome!!

Benny - that was just so tragic. I'm really heartbroken about that.

Excellent look at the episode!!
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-04-04 21:01
There was so much to talk about in this episode, but I wouldn't even want to begin other than to say I thought the episode was an epic disaster to the point of harming the series. However, I'll focus my comment on the positive.

The Dean/Benny scene was fantastic. I actually choked up, and I just don't do that. I also thought Ty was superb in his scene with Sam and Bobby.

I really am liking Amanda Tapping's Naomi, too.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-04 21:16
Ginger,

I am shocked by your statement and genuinely curious - what about the episode did you think "harmed the series"?
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-04-04 23:13
Quote:
Ginger,

I am shocked by your statement and genuinely curious - what about the episode did you think "harmed the series"?
I'm not going to get into it any further than to say that this single episode trashed show canon, cosmology, and the mythology that it has spent eight years in establishing, throwing away major storylines, wiped away it's own rules, and wiped out any basis for entire seasons. When that kind of damage is done by writers, I think it harms the series as a whole, and it leads me to think that all TPTB are interested in is writing more episodes for syndication purposes.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-04 23:19
Ginger,

I certainly agree that doing such things would damage the series as a whole.

I don't know if this helps or not (I can't understand or respond fully unless I'm given specific examples) however, everything changed after S5. Ripping up the rules, derailing the apocalypse, and locking Lucifer in the cage changed things on a mythological and cosmological level - Crowley's hell is vastly different from the hell Dean was sent to. And the cage is something different entirely.

I've wracked my brain and watch the episode twice, yet I can't for the life of me think of anything that was damaged in terms of canon. Perhaps someone who feels similar to Ginger could chime in and help me understand?
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-04-04 23:50
Quote:
Ginger,

I certainly agree that doing such things would damage the series as a whole.

I don't know if this helps or not (I can't understand or respond fully unless I'm given specific examples) however, everything changed after S5. Ripping up the rules, derailing the apocalypse, and locking Lucifer in the cage changed things on a mythological and cosmological level - Crowley's hell is vastly different from the hell Dean was sent to. And the cage is something different entirely.

I've wracked my brain and watch the episode twice, yet I can't for the life of me think of anything that was damaged in terms of canon. Perhaps someone who feels similar to Ginger could chime in and help me understand?
One small example then. The show established one simple rule for demons, angels, and reapers. The are NOT corporeal. Angels and demons have to have human vessels. Reapers can only be seen by the dead or the dying. Now we have reapers standing on a street corner eating pizza. We have Crowley killing said rogue reaper and we have Dean walking up to the cab, finding the dead CORPOREAL body; wound, blood and all.

The basic premise of the entire episode, using a rogue reaper, trashed every scene Death was in and him being older than God. It trashed the importance of the natural order of things. It trashed Death being the boss of reapers. It trashed the killing of reapers with special spells and moons and Death's scythe. It trashed Crowley's entire S6 hunt for Hell adjacent. It trashed the Wyoming Devil's Gate. It trashed Cas rescuing Dean from Purgatory. It trashed Naomi rescuing Cas from Purgatory. I could go on, and there was much, much more, but you get the picture.

And just how stupid was Kevin hiding the tablet and not telling the good guys, since he is the ONLY one that can give it up to Crowley.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 00:08
Quote:
Reapers can only be seen by the dead or the dying. Now we have reapers standing on a street corner eating pizza. We have Crowley killing said rogue reaper and we have Dean walking up to the cab, finding the dead CORPOREAL body; wound, blood and all.
Thing is though, it was made clear in the episode that Ajay was a ROGUE reaper - one who freelanced and worked independently of Death (thus not subject to the normal reaper rules). And if demons and angels can take on meatsuits and walk among the living, why can't a rogue reaper?

Quote:
It trashed the killing of reapers with special spells and moons and Death's scythe.
I thought Ajay was killed with an angel blade, which trumps everything. I could be very wrong though. That's a legit criticism.

I don't see what this has to do with Crowley's S6 hunt for Purgatory, or the Devil's Gate, or Naomi rescuing Cas from Purgatory. I'm curious about those concerns as well.

Remember that mythology on the show has evolved and expanded overtime. Dean and Sam have learned tons since S1, and there's tons more they have the potential to learn. So a lot of times what may initially be viewed as contradicting canon is really just adding to canon and expanding the world of the supernatural.

Quote:
And just how stupid was Kevin hiding the tablet and not telling the good guys, since he is the ONLY one that can give it up to Crowley.
I think Kevin has been wary of the Winchesters ever since Dean tried to kill his mother when she was possessed by Crowley. He doesn't trust them to protect him, because they haven't done a very good job of it. And he's a scared, young, not-thinking-st raight 17-18 year old kid. What he did was indeed stupid, but understandable, I thought.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-04-05 01:33
Bamboo24, I hate to admit it but I have agree with Ginger that it could harm the whole series.

Don't get me wrong I loved most of the episode despite these fears, but these were such major changes in the extremely well established lore that it really could be potentially damaging. 1. Hell being so easy to rescue someone from despite Sam doing every thing he could think of to do so and that it took a garrison to actually rescue Dean. Now this was before the apocalypse, so I guess Crowley could have loosen security, seems like a pretty weak explanation. 2. it being so easy to get into Purgatory or even to find it. Crowley (and Cas)spent the entire S6 (after the Apocalypse) looking for a way in, but now they easily find a rogue reaper to waltz Sam in. Why wouldn't Crowley just of been torching the reapers instead on the Alphas if they had such easy access. 3. Dean had to kill himself to find a reaper before but now there is one just hanging out on the street 4. Reaper being killed with a angel blade. 5. Crowley being able to keep souls out of heaven. If this was the case, why wouldn't he have just kept all the souls that died for himself S6, instead of searching so fervently for Purgatory.

If no explanations are given as to why there have been such major changes to lore (seemingly randomly), it will end up appearing that the changes were made very cavalierly without any thought to canon whatsoever. That is not a quality of great television shows (unless they are on the decline). So I really can see the potential for harm to the entire series in this case. Because they are messing with things that go back several seasons and are integral parts to the show (Same gripe I have about Sam this season). Without even acknowledging they are doing so.

BUT I'm going to give them to chance to explain or even better show that this was deliberate and part of the whole seasons arc about perception. I refuse to go down without a fight. :D
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 10:09
Hi KELLY,

I understand where you're coming from. I think the episode itself offered a lot of explanations for these issues, though.

1. Sam got into Hell through a "back door," hence he got snuck in, past security. That was why it was "easy".

2. Crowley obviously did not know about this rogue reaper with special skills during S6.

3. Again - rogue reaper. Ajay chose to break the rules, take on a meatsuit and wait on a street corner, visible to humans who aren't close to death.

4. This doesn't bother me. Obviously angel blades can kill reapers; Sam and Dean just haven't had the opportunity to discover that yet.

5. Well, obviously in order to smuggle a soul meant for heaven Crowley must wrangle himself a reaper willing to go rogue. It was Ajay who took Bobby's soul to hell. Ajay was working for Crowley.
Ale
# Ale 2013-04-05 10:39
Quote:
5. Well, obviously in order to smuggle a soul meant for heaven Crowley must wrangle himself a reaper willing to go rogue. It was Ajay who took Bobby's soul to hell. Ajay was working for Crowley.
Hey, Bamboo24, I reached the same conclusion on another post, but I didn't find any indication of that in the episode. Granted, I watched it just once and at 5:30 am, before dressing myself for work. Did you see something in the episode that hinted that?

Also, I felt Ajay was making himself visible in order to be able to eat pizza, just like Death. :D
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 10:48
Well, the episode did tell us that Ajay took Bobby's soul to hell, and that Ajay was rogue and working for Crowley. The rest is inference from those facts.

And that's a great point Ale, even Death was able to make himself visible and corporeal to eat pizza with Dean - thank you!
Ale
# Ale 2013-04-05 11:59
That makes sense! Thank you!

After reading these posts I'm feeling better, because me too, I was somewhat lost in the canon contradiction (or not). I think not only the writers but fans too sometimes get lost in canon, or the evolution and changes in canon due to what happens during the years. Remember when it was impossible to kill demons? John W searched for a way for years - not even Mayflower Campbells knew how. Now, we've got options!

It’s kind of like science, when you make a first discovery, lots of doors/possibili ties previously unseen/unknown start opening in front of us.

Please, let me give it a shot:

1. Lots of possibilities: Reapers can only smuggle souls through the back door (Purgatory), not directly in and out of Hell, and demons/angels didn’t know about this back door then. Or were aware of its existence only after they found the location of Purgatory in S06/S7 (Crowley). The “main entrance” was heavily guarded and Dean, specially, was very well guarded, because the demons had to break him to jump start the Apocalypse. Also, even if the top bosses angels knew about the back door, they were also not interest in rescue Dean before he breaks, because they too wanted the Apocalypse.

2. This one is more difficult. I don’t think monsters need a reaper to get their souls to Purgatory. Otherwise, we would have heard of vampire ghosts, or rugaru ghosts – although that would be fun! Monsters don’t get options – it’s just Purgatory. Crowley DID find Purgatory in S06 and a way in, and he got the Leviathan/Purga tory tablet and Kevin’s translation in S07 after Dick Roman’s death. So, either the Reapers didn’t know about Purgatory and their ability to enter it, or they did know about it all along but Crowley found out they did only later, reading the tablet. It’s easier to find more ways when you make the first discovery.

3. Dean did had to kill himself to find Tessa, and Death. Maybe if the demon hadn’t told them about where to find this rogue reaper, they would need to kill themselves again, or make an astral projection (Death Takes a Holiday), or whatever. But, this time, I think it was better this way.

4. We found out in S04 that reapers can be killed with a scythe in S04. But remember that, then, not even Alaister knew about the angel blade, how to kill angels. They didn’t know much about angels. It makes sense that an angel blade can kill reapers, because it can kill Archangels, even Lucifer! (Gabe tried, at least, and was killed by it).

5. This one was already answered. Crowley needs a reaper, so he can’t keep all souls for himself.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 12:08
Quote:
Dean, specially, was very well guarded, because the demons had to break him to jump start the Apocalypse. Also, even if the top bosses angels knew about the back door, they were also not interest in rescue Dean before he breaks, because they too wanted the Apocalypse.
Great point - very true!

Quote:
Crowley DID find Purgatory in S06 and a way in, and he got the Leviathan/Purgatory tablet and Kevin’s translation in S07 after Dick Roman’s death.
Yes, another great point.

Quote:
We found out in S04 that reapers can be killed with a scythe in S04. But remember that, then, not even Alaister knew about the angel blade, how to kill angels. They didn’t know much about angels. It makes sense that an angel blade can kill reapers, because it can kill Archangels, even Lucifer!
Great explanations, Ale!

I think it's difficult sometimes to keep track of all the twists and turns canon has taken over 8 long years, so it's understandable that it takes a minute to link it up. But if it's one thing I have faith in, it's the show's commitment to canon. It's one reason why I'm so devoted to it. They haven't dropped the ball here.
Ale
# Ale 2013-04-05 13:04
Something else just occured to me. Sam taking off his watch and leaving in the passage. Purgatory time is 1:1, but Hell is not. Time can be messed down there. Sam knew that so he left his watch in the passage for, when he was back, he was able to see how much time has passed (I guess at that spot time was 1:1). So, we really don't know how long it took for him to find Bobby. That one was realy good continuity! Kudos for the writers in that one!
eilf
# eilf 2013-04-05 13:09
Oh nice thinking! I like it :D
Ale
# Ale 2013-04-05 13:31
Yeah, really, after all this freaking hard work I don't know if the writers are messing with the show or if they are deliberatly messing with us fans, because since I've watched the episode Thursday morning I'm making myself crazy trying to make sense of it. It took me a whole day to understand the watch thing (and I don't think myself as usualy dense). God, I need to get back to work!
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-04-05 16:44
I had not thought of that. Thanks for sharing that explanation on the watch. Clever Sam!
E
# E 2013-04-06 08:15
I guess I just find it hard to believe that Death would ALLOW any reaper of his to go rogue... he's been show to wield so much power on this show, and everyone is afraid of him. How is it that he a. doesn't know about Ajay and his roguelike ways and/or b. would allow such flouting of his authority. Death could barley tolerate Dean's actions and humans register as such insignificant blips on Death's radar. I found Ajay as a character and his being a rogue reaper hard to swallow given what we know about canon.
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-06 08:47
Quote:
I guess I just find it hard to believe that Death would ALLOW any reaper of his to go rogue... he's been show to wield so much power on this show, and everyone is afraid of him. How is it that he a. doesn't know about Ajay and his roguelike ways and/or b. would allow such flouting of his authority. Death could barley tolerate Dean's actions and humans register as such insignificant blips on Death's radar. I found Ajay as a character and his being a rogue reaper hard to swallow given what we know about canon.
I believe I have to agree with you on this.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-06 11:07
Quote:
I just find it hard to believe that Death would ALLOW any reaper of his to go rogue... he's been show to wield so much power on this show, and everyone is afraid of him. How is it that he a. doesn't know about Ajay and his roguelike ways and/or b. would allow such flouting of his authority. Death could barley tolerate Dean's actions and humans register as such insignificant blips on Death's radar. I found Ajay as a character and his being a rogue reaper hard to swallow given what we know about canon.
We know that Death is as old as God, maybe older. He's got a bird's eye view of creation - humans are like bacteria to him. With that kind of big picture understanding of things, why would he care about one rogue reaper?

We know that Death supports the natural order of things - and part of the natural order is that beings have free will (even angels can choose to disobey). Perhaps Death supports "Team Free Will." He did during S5. So perhaps he'd have no problem with Ajay. I sincerely doubt that he would give a crap about it, either way.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-04-05 11:00
But if Ajay was working for Crowley, why wouldn't he know what the Winchesters were up to and more importantly why wouldn't Ajay just have told the location of Purgatory in S6?
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 11:05
KELLY,

The only way that criticism would be fair is if Ajay was around in S6, or if we knew any rogue reapers during S6.

What Crowley didn't know was WHY Sam went into Hell. He doesn't have the part of the tablet that talks about the trials.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-04-05 01:52
Well said! This show's genre are open to everybody's imagination, it's not like cops shows. Besides, at this point is obvious that the writers play with the "complainers" fans (not that is anything wrong with that), although, I think too much complains or negativity gives the show a bad reputation... maybe I'm wrong, but it is how I see it.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-04-05 01:53
Ginger,I understand what you mean Although, the way I try to look at it is like this; They are constantly finding new ways to do things that they didn't know about before. That has always been the way of the show. Remember in Season 1 they didn't even know that demons always possessed a person; because they had never seen it. (Bobby said normally only 3 or 4 possession a year). Hell was ramping up their plan. Every season they find out more and more. So, I just try to put it in that perspective.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 10:16
Penny Jaime,

This is how I see it too. I haven't found them to be directly contradicting anything that came before yet - but always adding to the lore and expanding their world. They have to do that to keep creative and fresh.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-04-05 10:48
Bamboo24, I go with the not directly contradicting lore but fleshing it out -IN MOST CASES. But definitely not these. These things are too integral to the show. (I feel like I'm have the Sam argument again-HA!) At the very minimum, you need "explainer" lines or acknowledgement . Such as, "Man Crowley was moving Heaven and Hell to find Purgatory, he should have grabbed a reaper" It's weak since that plotline took up all of S6. But at least it is something.

Again if this isn't part some big major plan, than they should have skipped the rogue reaper and had a spell to get into Purgatory and another to open a gate from there to Hell or something like that WRITTEN ON THE TABLET. Or maybe it said how to hijack a reaper. Because not even Crowley seemed to know about the tablets before and even if he did he didn't know what info was on them. And the Winchesters definitely wouldn't have known, so them not being able to rescue one another in past seasons wouldn't look so bad. Because seriously, they find out the tablet and immediately find out about a rogue reaper from a demon(why wouldn't Crowley have that info if the demon did) and then just find a "hole" from Purgatory to Hell and back. If its that easy to get from one to the other, then Crowley should have been paying more attention when he did his Hell renovations. And the Sam easily finds Bobby out of the millions of souls in Hell.

The more I write about this the more I'm convinced (or trying desperately to convince myself) that something is definitely hinky with this episode. Supernatural normally does really, really well with continuity or at least explaining the change, even with 8 seasons of lore. And when they mess up it little things, but these are MASSIVE flaws in logic.

But we didn't get any explanations for the change of any of it (at least not yet because sometimes explanations are left to the next episode-althoug h these are doozy)so I'm really beginning to believe that this is part of the perception story arc they been playing with all year. At least I really desperately hope it is.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 11:03
"Man Crowley was moving Heaven and Hell to find Purgatory, he should have grabbed a reaper" It's weak since that plotline took up all of S6.

I think this poses a question about assumptions - because I think the show has only shown a reaper take one soul at a time after death. Crowley then, would not make much leeway with one rogue reaper (he'd have to get himself many, which I'm assuming would be difficult). I think Ajay has served as a soul-smuggler simply for those people Crowley hates most and wants to leave to rot.

Again, nothing you've said contradicts the plot in S6, it's all stuff that Crowley didn't utilize at the time because he didn't know about it.

Quote:
so them not being able to rescue one another in past seasons wouldn't look so bad.
Why does it look bad? They couldn't rescue one another in past seasons because they didn't know about this passageway, and they couldn't get to it without the rogue reaper.

Quote:
Because seriously, they find out the tablet and immediately find out about a rogue reaper from a demon(why wouldn't Crowley have that info if the demon did) and then just find a "hole" from Purgatory to Hell and back. If its that easy to get from one to the other, then Crowley should have been paying more attention when he did his Hell renovations. And the Sam easily finds Bobby out of the millions of souls in Hell.
Crowley did know about Ajay, and he did know about the portal. So yes, he did have the information the demon did. That's why the demon wanted to be killed, because he knew Crowley would torture him for eternity for giving up such secrets to the Winchesters.

Sam easily finds Bobby - come on, that's purely because of time constraints. It would take too long for them to film all that. That's just TV being TV.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-04-05 11:42
You missed my point about Ajay. Crowley this supposedly extremely brilliant King of Hell. Never even thinks to try to convince a reaper to go rogue and show him the location of Purgatory in S6 (he could sell water to a drowning man). Or even now for that matter (although the argument could be made that he doesn't want the souls now that he knows about the Leviathan).

Same with Sam and Dean, now that the plot requires them to go to Hell, this random crossroads demon just happens to have the info they needed. It makes Sam look pretty bad for shooting his instead. He should just been torturing one and found Ajay or some other rogue reaper. Then he could have just waltzed into Purgatory and then Hell and waltzed out with Dean.

This entire episode felt like a study in ex deus machina. I need this to be true for this episode so now it is, without any explanation is to why it is now true. I hold this show to a higher standard than that. I used to watch Charmed as a guilty pleasure and it would pull that crap all the time and I totally didn't care because -whatever. But the reason I'm so devoted to this show is because they don't really do stuff like that.

Which is why I can't go for the TV being TV line AT ALL. Yes they have budget and time limitations but that hasn't stopped them from creating some masterpieces. And if the script was to unwieldy for one episode they should have extended it to 2 or given it another pass as Chuck says and found a way to have the same outcome but with different steps. And again they had the obvious choice right there-the tablet.

But I could MAYBE let it go with some explainer lines but I'm really hoping that this is part of the plan.
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-06 08:18
Quote:
Same with Sam and Dean, now that the plot requires them to go to Hell, this random crossroads demon just happens to have the info they needed. It makes Sam look pretty bad for shooting his instead. He should just been torturing one and found Ajay or some other rogue reaper. Then he could have just waltzed into Purgatory and then Hell and waltzed out with Dean.
Exactly what I'm saying!! And they said it over and over again not only using Dean as voice but Meg and Bobby, all long characters of the shows that knows the brother's history said that Sam is OOC and wrong for not looking for Dean. Now that Sam knows that the road to find Hell and Purgatory is that easy, it makes the blow harder and harder.

Why the repetition? Why the overload accusations?
Why it is Sam who gets to go to Purgatory and find a way there?

Too much to not be a coincidence. But if it's just as it is then, the writing quality is surely deteriorating. Shame!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-06 10:59
KELLY,

Quote:
You missed my point about Ajay. Crowley this supposedly extremely brilliant King of Hell. Never even thinks to try to convince a reaper to go rogue and show him the location of Purgatory in S6 (he could sell water to a drowning man). Or even now for that matter (although the argument could be made that he doesn't want the souls now that he knows about the Leviathan).
I didn't miss your point about Ajay. I perhaps didn't express myself clearly though. :)

Crowley didn't think to convince a reaper to go rogue and show him the location of Purgatory in S6 because a) maybe Ajay wasn't rogue back then, and he's the only one of his kind, b) maybe Crowley hadn't heard of rogue reapers, c) Crowley didn't need to get inside Purgatory - he needed access in way that let him suck up souls the way Cas did, and d) because it didn't serve the S6 plot to do it that way. I don't see a problem.

Quote:
Same with Sam and Dean, now that the plot requires them to go to Hell, this random crossroads demon just happens to have the info they needed. It makes Sam look pretty bad for shooting his instead.
Wow, that's going all the way back to S3, right? They didn't torture demons back then. But even if they did, sending Dean to hell to get Sam alone and broken was such a big deal that I doubt a demon would break on it. We saw in S4 that Sam did torture a crossroads demon to get his brother out, and he was never going to tell - he'd rather die. So no, I don't think that would have worked. Sam can't be blamed for what he didn't know.

I think it's totally fair to say that this episode could have and perhaps should have been a two-parter. But that didn't stifle my enjoyment of it. Better too fast and loaded than too slow and thin, I say.
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-07 01:27
Quote:
Wow, that's going all the way back to S3, right? They didn't torture demons back then. But even if they did, sending Dean to hell to get Sam alone and broken was such a big deal that I doubt a demon would break on it. We saw in S4 that Sam did torture a crossroads demon to get his brother out, and he was never going to tell - he'd rather die. So no, I don't think that would have worked. Sam can't be blamed for what he didn't know.
All I'm saying is that the demon broke too easy. Everything is too easy in this episode. What is the chance that they summon a demon who was much harder to break? The second task should be harder that the first task but the means just fell on their laps too easy. There are many roads to Rome many ways to make a storyline of an episode more interesting Taxi Driver.

The quality of this episode is meh plotwise. Perhaps it's the quality of the writer. I know they are not Ben Edlund or Carver but perhaps that's the problem. This is the meaty part of the Myhtarc so I am expecting better writing in Edlund or Carver standard.

I remember Dean tortured demons for quite a long time to look for Lisa and Ben and that those demons didn't cave that easily. It's a battle of will and snark back then.

You forget REPO MEN. They did torture demon back then, heavily, cruelly, and sadistically. There's still a debate about the timeline. Whether Repo Men happen in S3 or S4. But if it happened in S3 then it negates your statement about Sam and Dean didn't torture Demon back then.

Say, who wrote REPO MEN anyway? :-D
IF Taxi Driver's writers wrote REPO MEN would it be that good? Just saying.
Ale
# Ale 2013-04-07 09:35
Quote:
All I'm saying is that the demon broke too easy. Everything is too easy in this episode. What is the chance that they summon a demon who was much harder to break?
Kaj, that is exactly the point, we know very well that Sam and Dean can be effective, brutal torturers and EVERY demon do, too. We don't need to see butal torture scenes every episode (in a already torture heavy season), and the Winchesters don't need to go to extremes to extract information - demons know what they can do.

I, personally, don't need this kind of scene every time. If it is important to the plot, ok - like in Repo Man. Or when it is needed to ilustrate Dean's mind set - like the Ben/Lisa episode. But I don't need to see it every time just to make a point on how the boys are good at that. Something like in A Little Slice of Kevin is enough - it just took Dean to say "Lets talk', holding the knife, and the demon spilled the beans about where Kevin was. Enough for me. :-)
E
# E 2013-04-07 10:06
Quote:
Wow, that's going all the way back to S3, right? They didn't torture demons back then.
Um... they tortured Meg in Devil's Trap (season 1) and tortured her again when she was inside Sam (Born Under a Bad Sign) in season two.... just sayin' :lol:
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-07 13:34
Quote:
Um... they tortured Meg in Devil's Trap (season 1) and tortured her again when she was inside Sam (Born Under a Bad Sign) in season two.... just sayin'
Oops, you're right, of course. In my head I was thinking of "torture" in the sense of the bloody kind of stuff we've gotten ever since Dean got out of Hell. Back when they tortured Meg, it was just with the Holy Water and Exorcisms. They've gotten cruelly creative since then, much to own personal dismay. In this episode, Sam and Dean tortured the Crossroads demon the way they used to torture demons back in S1 - in ways that didn't hurt the host. (Of course, they ended up killing the demon, which probably meant killing the meatsuit, so I guess it doesn't mean much). I think we've gotten used to the Winchesters' brutality over the past couple years, making the Crossroads demon confession in this episode look "easy" in comparison.
E
# E 2013-04-07 19:21
Yes, Dean really did step up his game after season 3... and the torture did get nastier. I wonder though; why there were being so "kind" for lack of a better word with the crossroads demon in this ep when they've gone so much further in recent years. I guess he was just a wuss and tossed up what he knew more easily so that the boys didn't have to bring out the heavy artillery.
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-06 08:30
I'm sorry Bamboo24 but it's the same writers (although different showrunners) who wrote S6 plot and S8 plot. Why couldn't they THINK of this beforehand?

I know world building is a bitchy part of writing, I know that, believe me. BUT even if it's difficult they must keep notes and guidance and role for themselves ask themselves, Will this contradict the previous rule?

Have they ask themselves that (for example) "Wait a minute, Purgatory is supposed to be hard to find. One creature to escape and who knows the secret to open the door is an old and very knowledgeable creature, Ellie. She's one of a kind. So why we sudden invent a rogue reapers to just waltz in? Why Death even not suspicious of his reapers? How long does this Ajay supposed to live before?
Did he also present in the world building during S6? Supposedly Ajay is also a rogue reaper during S6, why couldn't he also be interrogated by Crowley at the time?"

World building suck but it's writer's own guide book. Please don't lose this guide book if they don't want to have fans and avid, smart readers raising hell, pun intended. :D
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-06 10:47
Quote:
it's the same writers (although different showrunners) who wrote S6 plot and S8 plot.
I'm aware of that kaj, and it doesn't change my opinion. I don't think they've contradicted anything that came before. I don't think they've done anything different with this episode than they've done in the past when introducing angels and demons and monsters of different kinds and specialties. Purgatory is still hard to find - only a reaper (and a rogue one) can get you in the back door. Why the back door? Why not a spell? Because doing it that way brought the Leviathans into the world (S7). Asking why Death is not suspicious of his reaper is making the assumption that he would be. We don't know. Why would God not know about his angels actively working to bring about the apocalypse during S4-5? There's certainly a mysterious air to these questions, but they don't need to be answered in order for the plot to make sense. And it is unfair, in my opinion, to use hindsight and say "why didn't Crowley interrogate Ajay during S6?" - Maybe Ajay wasn't around in S6. But Crowley certainly didn't know of him back then, and the plot didn't have use for him. That's like saying "why didn't they find the demon knife earlier?" Because they hadn't thought of it yet, of course!

Supernatural has the best, most compelling, and consistent world-building writers of any TV series I've ever watched (granted, I'm sure there are other sci-fi shows that I haven't heard of). They are well aware of what their fans expect, and how important canon is. They haven't overstepped anything here, IMO.
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-06 23:49
I read that Robbie Thompson has not been told about the carving on Sam and Dean's ribs. He doesn't know that Cas has carved enochian symbols on their ribs. And even in S6 we have Cas winked in and out as he liked and even spied on them whenever he liked.

These misinformation is the first sign of inconsistent world building. For writers to be able to make a consistent script they must be told of the 'rule'. There got to be some kind of The Winchester Gospel for them.

When readers start questioning and then grappling to find explanation out of things that happens in a show/story then it's time the writers ask themselves, do they do it the right way? Why didn't the message come across to the viewers? What did they do wrong.

It's not just me. I don't know for sure but judging from the comments on this board alone there are half of fans who are questioning the inconsistency. There are more stating the same thing on other boards of discussion.

When half of the citizen starting to doubt you then there gotta be something wrong with your government. When half of your readers starting to question your facts then there gotta be something wrong with the way you write things. Even less than 50 percent of a society can overthrow a ruling government.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-07 00:21
I hardly think that the number of dissatisfied fans, judging by the overwhelmingly positive polls, is near 50%. S8 episodes have consistently received 60-90% positive ratings from polls on this site alone. The ones who are dissatisfied, though, are understandably vocal.

Look, I respect that there are those who are dissatisfied. You are entitled to be if you wish. But I haven't read any concrete, reasonable examples of ways in which canon has been contradicted or mishandled in this episode. I'm sorry, but I'm thoroughly unconvinced.

You speak of rules and gospels - but the world of the Winchesters is constantly evolving to accomodate new creatures, weapons, hunters, societies, dimensions, etc. There are very few hard and fast rules in this Show. Things have been changing and evolving since the Pilot. Sam and Dean are always learning some new way to kill a creature or some new spell or portal or weapon or trick or creature. Storylines have been occasionally dropped, plots have occasionally worn thin, but I have yet to encounter a glaringly obvious and ruinous error.

And I don't trust anything I read on the internet unless it's from an official source, so I can't comment on whatever you read about Robbie Thompson. Even so, I haven't seen anything glaringly wrong with how Cas has been getting around Winchesters since S6...perhaps if you give specific examples that would help me understand. All I can say is I have immense respect for the amount of canon and lore the writers are responsible for, and that they are still able to hit the ball out of the park creatively 8 years in.
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-07 01:12
The Man Who Would Be King, first scene.
We hear Cas fluttered his wings and appeared next to Dean in the moving Impala.
Season 5 he couldn't even trace Dean and Sam without telephone. What happen to the carved ribs? Did it end when Season 5 end? And not in a single episode Dean or Sam questioned Cas about it.

It'll be okay if they throw a line like, "How can you find us Cas? Did you erase the sigils on our ribs?"

Perhaps I remember it wrong but I haven't seen that kind of line during S6 and S7. Perhaps you can show me in which episode Cas explained about that?

I remember Jensen's answer about the hand print question in S7. He said it's actually the mistakes on the crew part that they forgot about it. Then, he said the crew remembered about Cas healing Dean in Swan Song. So, they grasped that as an explanation.

They made mistakes and it's about a thing that's visible. How about the things that's not visible from outside like carved ribs? It's very easy to forget about those little details.

I'm afraid that if they are asked about that they will also say that when Cas healed Dean he also removed the enochian symbols. A great save but it's really to cover about their mistake in forgetting details.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-07 10:02
That's a good example kaj, I see what you mean. No, there's never been a line about erasing the sigils. Yes, it would be the kind of thing easily forgotten or cast aside if the plot needed Cas to be in a certain spot.

Still, it doesn't bother me because I've always assumed the following: Cas is angel, which means he must have many methods for finding the brothers when needed, and he keeps in touch with the brothers frequently. Especially by pinpointing where the brothers were last time he spoke with them, he could easily find them eventually by using his angel skills and the process of deduction.

For example, Cas once went to look for something (I forget the episode) and Dean asked him where he looked, and Cas shrugged and said, "everywhere." He could fly - or blip - around the world in seconds, probably. He's truly an all-powerful being, save for times when his power has been externally limited (it happened a few times in S4-5).

The reason why the angel sigils generally work against other angels, then, is they don't keep in contact with the Winchesters as frequently as Cas (or at all) so they can't use those same processes of deduction. Unsatisfactory? Perhaps for some. Weak? Definitely. Yes, this is a problem - but it is specifically the kind of problem that comes when you introduce an all-powerful being such as an angel on a show. And it's been a problem since S4, when angels were first introduced.

(Side note: this is why I think the best move forward would be for Cas to officially fall and become human, so we don't have these issues in S9).

Still - nothing I've discussed here interferes with my enjoyment of the show, because I recognize the limitations of the writing at least in this area. I've been frustrated by how Cas has been used on the show many times, but I choose to overlook it. The quality of the rest of it more than makes up for the fact that Cas is too often used as a plot device, or that the angel sigils are kind of counter-intuiti ve.

I remember the hand print thing too. Yes, they forgot. Yes, they make mistakes. Nothing's been so blatant or horrible that it's killed my enjoyment of the show. Now, if they did something like have Sam come out and say, "I've never been to Hell," or if Dean starting talking about how his mother died in a car accident, or something obviously, game-changingly wrong - then I'd be pissed. That would be explicitly contradicting canon, and a slap in the face to fans. But that has not happened. I think the writers keep pretty good track of things, considering.
E
# E 2013-04-07 08:55
Bamboo, ratings and opinion are two different things. I would have given this episode a positive rating overall had the choice come down to a simplified "did you like it/ did you not like it" scenario. There were many good things about it and overall, I consider it a success on many levels, but I have major problems with the consistency (yes, Kaj, I agree whole heartedly!) and those are the things I have been discussing here, along with many, many, many other people.

There ARE contradictions, loads of them IMO; I've detailed how they pertain to Ajay specifically above in response to one of your earlier posts. Of course, you may not agree or even accept what I've said.. and that's cool, it's what makes this site great! :-)
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-09 10:42
Yep!!! You're absolutely right E

If anyone right now ask me 'Do I still love and support Supernatural? My answer will be YES.

Because I want my fav show has a good rating so TPTB will continue consider this show is a good show and worth continuing. There are good episodes written by great writers and there are spectacular acting from the actors and actresses.

But, That doesn't mean I close my eyes for discrepancies and sloppy/lazy writings. No. Because I love quality and I get used to a premium quality products in previous seasons that when I was given a lowered grade product, as a loyal costumer, OF Course I'll claim!

It's because I still love this show that makes me post my opinion. Making critics, analysis, watching continuation, etc that's what loyal and loving fans do. BEcause we still CARE. And we want the best for our show.

So, yes, I agree with E that ratings and opinions are different.
E
# E 2013-04-07 08:36
Quote:
I don't think they've contradicted anything that came before.
Until this episode reapers have been incorporeal and their job has been to ferry dead and dying souls to their final reward (or punishment)... now suddenly they can choose to be corporeal, even to the point that their dead bodies (or maybe its a vessel, that wasn't explained either) remain in the real world to be seen by everyone even after their death. Despite Tessa telling Dean that reapers can't be seen by the living and that they can't interfere in what the living do, now, suddenly these rogues can choose to be seen by everyone and strike bargains with the living to take them into realms where the living don't belong. Reapers stop time when they appear(Faith) and, can be bound to do the work of mortals with a binding spell (Faith also) but Ajay, didn't stop time when he appeared and was doing the work of mortals without a spell. All of that is a contradiction to what came before (over years worth of episodes) and contradictions that have not been explained at all. Now maybe these contradictions don't bother you, but they ARE contradictions and they do bother me. It's sloppy writing IMHO. They've changed an important aspect of a being that has appeared in at least 6 episodes (that I can think of) and have served a consistent specific function, and they did it with no explanation. Why was Ajay rogue? Was he wearing a meatsuit or is that his own "body"? Does death know that he's rogue? does he care? Does Ajay have to hide what he's doing from other reapers? Is he in danger of retribution for what he's doing? Can he work for anyone? Are there other rogues? Do they all specialize in going between purgatory and hell, or do some rogues specialize in back door entry into heaven? Does being a rogue have anything to do with why he's corporeal when all other reapers aren't? What made him go rogue in the first place? What is he getting out of it that makes being rogue better than being a standard reaper? Does he have free will and that's why he's rogue? I don't mind an expansion of mythology, but this was a sloppy retcon for the sake of lazy writing, not an addition or an enhancement to what we already know. IMO if the writers are going to introduce a character/creat ure that in some way contradicts an important standing element, then it is their responsibility to explain it better, to create a situation for that change that is meaningful and relevant going forward (such as the MoL bunker, a retcon that was handled properly) not introduce changes that circumvent all previously established canon about that character and then kill him off so that there is no future or explanation for these drastic changes. Ajay was a contrivance for the sake of convenience and nothing more. (Unless, of course, we find out that the whole trial scenario is a ruse, and the brothers are being manipulated in ways we can only guess at. If so, I won't feel so badly disposed toward Ajay and what he's done to established mythology :D ).
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-07 09:22
E,

Yes, I've read and discussed the reaper thing in prior posts - I won't rehash it here for the sake of space - however, I will say that I think there was a satisfactory answer given to why Ajay didn't follow the canon we have on reapers - he was rogue. By definition, that means that he's shady, unreliable, rule-breaking reaper. Whether it was a sloppy explanation is a matter of opinion, I suppose, but I do not view that as contradicting/g oing against canon. They haven't changed the rules on reapers, they've merely added a new kind of reaper - a rogue one - to a long list of beings on SPN.

Yes, there are many questions about Ajay's rogue-ness. Just because we didn't get the answers in this episode doesn't make it sloppy. Over the history of the show, we've seen the introduction of new characters with minimal backstory that haven't been fleshed out until episodes, even seasons later. I understand how having such questions could be unsatisfactory, but I don't mind the mystery and the possibilities it presents.
E
# E 2013-04-07 10:33
I take your point Bamboo, but simply being "rogue" with no further explanation is simply not good enough IMO. Remember the kerfuffle surrounding the contradiction of John's canon in As Time Goes By? All that discussion and outrage surrounding one offhand line of dialogue regarding John's father spoken years earlier in a single episode because it contradicted what we thought we knew about John's childhood. This situation contradicted far, far more important established information than that, but offered up no explanation for the contradiction other than to say Ajay was "rogue". Not enough, not nearly enough, and uncreative in my opinion.

Like I said before, it may not bother you, but it bothers me (and many others, as this discussion has spanned multiple days and multiple threads) and I have come to expect more from Supernatural as a show, simply by virtue of it's long standing excellence over the years. They have set a high standard and perhaps that is hard to maintain, but I expect them to at least try, and in this instance they did not, they took the easy, shoddy way out, which is a disappointment for me considering the source material at their disposal (astral projection from season 3, the MoL bunker, the tablets themselves) in which they could have turned to solve the dilemma of how to get Sam in and out of hell for the second trial.

I suspect that we will have to agree to disagree on this one!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-07 13:22
Quote:
Remember the kerfuffle surrounding the contradiction of John's canon in As Time Goes By? All that discussion and outrage surrounding one offhand line of dialogue regarding John's father spoken years earlier in a single episode because it contradicted what we thought we knew about John's childhood.
Yes, that actually WAS a canon-kerfuffle regarding John's history, because when Dean went back in time, John's father was alive, and was some kind of mechanic. Not a dealbreaking for me, because it could very well have been a stepfather, but certainly annoying. I've moved on. Regardless: that has nothing to do with THIS episode, and that example, IMO, bears no coherent analogy to the one at hand.

...but rather than drag this on, ad nauseum, I'll agree to disagree. :)
E
# E 2013-04-07 18:20
Quote:
Regardless: that has nothing to do with THIS episode, and that example, IMO, bears no coherent analogy to the one at hand.
It DOES bear relevance to the argument that I am making which is that fans were upset with the fairly insignificant retcon of John's father, so it would follow that even more fans are upset about the massive retconing of huge amounts of the Supernatural mythology as it pertains to Ajay. So, in that way, it is in fact quite relevant. And at least the changes to John's childhood has resulted in the establishment of the MoL, the Winchester Legacy AND that fabulous bunker the boys now call home. What did the retcon of rogue reapers leave us with besides ruined canon? IMO, Nothing.
E
# E 2013-04-07 19:29
Bamboo,
I am just gonna add a bit here to say that deep down inside, I still really believe that there is some kind of a reveal coming and I think that this long hoped for, much anticipated reveal will in some ways render our current argument null and void, hopefully along with some of the other arguments people are making about this episode (the easy of getting in and out of purgatory/hell, Crowley can get in peoples heads, Crowley can control where souls go etc...) because it will take what we think we know and blow it out of the water. You are just so good at this, coming up with such well argued counters to my comments. It's been great sparring with you. ! :-)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-07 19:58
E,

I would totally be open to a big reveal. :)

You are tenacious in your convictions, which is to be admired, and I have thoroughly enjoyed "sparring" with you as well. ;)
E
# E 2013-04-07 20:16
"tenacious;" Euphemism for "stubborn pain in the ass!"Heh
E
# E 2013-04-07 11:28
Ale, I think that you might be missing my argument. (Sorry for the length of the post! Oy, it's long! :oops: )

I am not arguing against the evolution of established canon, I actually support that. Learning new things that contradict what we think we know about how the Supernatural world works and letting that evolve into something new is part of the process of the show and one I eagerly support. Look at the MoL, it contradicted all we had learned about John's childhood and Sam and Dean's role as hunters etc... and the MoL bunker has become an important facet of that new information and an important evolution in canon. The Bunker and the boys legacy is relevant to them as a source of information (especially important in the wake of Bobby's death) and safety (warded against pretty much everything) and the concept of the Legacy itself: that they are Winchesters, they were born to this, it's in their blood, which is a crucial concept for both of them and their commitment to the job. We were shown by the writers that the MoL and the bunker would have a more lasting and important presence in the show, and it has. The breaking of canon in this instance was worth what followed.

But this rogue reaper doesn't feel like that to me... his introduction seemed like it was more for the sake of the plot in this single episode than for any plans the writers might have had to further the mythology on reapers or to make rogue reapers important to the established canon in future episodes. I may be wrong about this, perhaps the whole concept will be revisited and fleshed out in a way that I find more satisfying in later episodes, but my bet is that we never hear of rogue reapers again, meaning that Ajay will have been the only one, his appearance and subsequent death remarkable only in its convenience; breaking down canon not because they were advancing the mythos on reapers but because the writers couldn't come up with a more creative or relevant alternative to drive their plot forward. Ajay was easy and quick, probably used because the episode was only 42 minutes long and they had to get Sam in and out, save Bobby, and deal with Dean and Benny all in one episode (another argument for expanding it into a two parter). He was a plot device, and that's fine as far as it goes, but when a simple plot device, introduced to be used once and then thrown away (or killed off) should not reduce established canon in such a devastating way and then vanish out of the story without contributing something new, something relevant to take the place of what has been changed.

When Henry Winchester was introduced in As Time Goes By, he was killed off in one episode, but his affects are still being felt. He introduced concepts that are still unfolding, his contradiction of established canon has had lasting and important effects on the brother's lives and provided avenues for how the story can be expanded in new and interesting ways. Ajay also was introduced and killed off in one episode, but he contributed nothing more than to provide an easy fix to the boys problem of the moment and destroyed a lot of relevant backstory in the processes. If I felt that in some way that the script had hinted that rogue reapers would become an important element in closing the gates of hell or would be in any way relevant to Sam and Dean in their future as hunters, such as providing salted and burned ghosts another opportunity to cross over for example, or sending one to retrieve Benny in the future if it becomes necessary, then I would be fine with it, but there was not one sliver of a hint that indicated that the writers were thinking along those lines in any way at all. My guess is that they aren't planning to expand on the concept of rogue reapers or their potential usefulness to Sam and Dean. I couldn't see anything relevant in what we learned about them that will unfold in future episodes that was worth what was destroyed in back canon, and that, for me, the problem.
Ale
# Ale 2013-04-07 12:19
E, I understand why you are uncomfortable. If my main concearn is the development and stablishment of the mythology, I would be uncomfortable too. But, unlike you, I don't mind when they introduce a little twist in a 'monster' or in the mythology in order to tell the story or even if the point is only to create some dramatic moment for the development of the characters.

Like in Mystery Spot. In S03, we could be asking ourselves why would the trickester waste so much time with the Winchesters, why would he trouble himself that much to teach Sam a point and then restore Dean. Why would he bother, what motivate him, what were his reasons, can he change history, can he ressurect people. In S05 they offered a darn good explanation, it was a great twist, but even if they hadn't done that, it wouldn't mess up for me how incredible and wonderful Mystery Spot was. Because the main point was to show how desperate Sam was, how he loves his brother and how damaged he would be without him. It doesn't make sense with the trickster story - really, I don't care!

In this one, the important point for me was not the rogue reaper mythology. It was the plot that used him to get Sam stuck in Purgatory and make him see what Dean saw, regarding the place and regarding Benny. It was a way for us to see how important Sam was to Dean and resolve 'the better brother' line, and to bring both of them back in the 'not all monsters are bad and deserve to die' - a lesson Sam taught Dean in S02 but that was 'unlearned' in S07 by both of them and needed to be corrected. This episode resolved that, IMO.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-07 12:42
Well said, Ale. I agree.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-04-08 00:40
E, when do we not agree! It's getting scary!

Bamboo24 and Ale, like sweetondean, my youngest niece reacts purely on emotions to episodes. If it works for her emotionally than she doesn't really care if every dot connects. Which is why the Sam not looking for Dean still bothers her, but this does not. My brother, brother-in-law and nephew view the episodes through an almost entirely logical lens. If the characters are doing something that makes them repeatedly shout at the TV that they are doing something stupid or seemingly contradicts what was previously established, they can't even enjoy the rest of the episode. My sister, my older niece and I fall and different places in between.

My sister can only handle so much emotionally stuff (she thought the Benny/Dean scene was too much) and she is just as likely to scoff at a stupid move and hates inconsistencies in plot or logic but if an episode makes her happy or laugh she will likely forgive them almost all but major problems (she did consider the ease getting into Hell a major problems). Lissa is a little more picky with canon but again can be overcome with a funny episode (my nephew is pretty much the same with the humorous ones- he LOVED S7TfaW).

I have the ability to react almost equally strong to the emotional and the logical, I realized. I absolutely ADORED so much of this episode. But the rest of it makes me want to shake the writers and scream, "WTF." It's a conundrum.

My long overdue point is that we can go back and forth for days about whether something is contradicting canon (we actually have), but I don't think we are ever likely to react to the episode in the same way. Because it is not just about if something works logically. It is how much you are willing take "on faith" with these types on questions.

For instance, MY level is that I'm will to believe that John had a step-father because we never heard one way or another. I'm willing to believe that Castiel healed the sigils on the ribs because he had opportunity and as far as he knew they wouldn't need them after SS. And this would enable HIM to be able to find them. That seems logical. I didn't even really mind that Samuel had a vampire cure, because he was a new element in their world with new knowledge. I could mention countless others by you get my point. Other people can not accept these types explanations.

But I NEED NEED NEED for them to tell what went on with Sam while Dean was gone (this one is especially important because it is both emotional and logical problem for me) And need something more than we received for me to be able to react to this episode how I want to-with pure joy. It hit all the right emotional notes for me and then plunged into the abyss with its logic for me.

But obviously that is not the case with you which is great.

Although all of this might end up being a moot point because I really think at bare minimum we'll at least get a few explainer lines. It wouldn't be the first time they ran out of time on an episode and a few of the loose threads had to be cleared up later (although for me this one had a whole spool of threads). Even though what I'm hoping is that this was just part of a larger plan, along with Sam's missing time.
E
# E 2013-04-08 08:26
I really think it will be moot too (way down deep) but maybe as a performer (actor, singer etc) I have big time problems with character motivation when the plot holes make me go HUH? And as a performer I have read TONS of texts on dramatic construction, how to write characters and not make careless mistakes in logic etc... so I think these kinds of things get under my skin when I see them happening, especially on this show, which has always been a cut above IMO.

The Ajay thing DOES bug me because his character did not introduce anything meaningful to replace what was being contradicted. This may change as time goes on if the concept of rogue reapers is explored in later episodes, as it did with the Colt. Remember the uproar when it was "discovered" that the gun that could kill anything suddenly couldn't kill Lucifer?That little factoid came out of the blue and seemed illogical and the fan response indicated that. Kripke admitted in an interview that they had written themselves into a corner with the Colt, making the recon necessary. Like I said, it happens. (You notice, the Colt is gone now, btw). The writers here provided a solution to the retcon simply by having Ajay killed off in the same episode, so I doubt that the concept introduced will be explored at all.

The emotional stuff is probably the most important part to me too, I've said before, that despite the holes in logic (Ajay is only one of them) I consider the episode, overall, a success because of the emotional punch it packed. I LIKED the Dean/Benny scene, I thought it was wonderfully played, the emotions were true in that moment and very effective, for me at any rate. The Sam/Bobby scenes too were wonderful, it was so nice to see Sam connect with Bobby again and to get to save him. And the Sam/Dean scenes were the cherry on top. Those two work off each other like no other actors, that last scene was gold.

So, see? We dont' really disagree all that much at all! (what a relief!)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-04-08 12:28
E, WE don't disagree at all. I loved the Dean/Benny scene. I told her she was being a mocking mcmockington. :D She really like the Bobby and Sam(as did I) and the Sam and Dean scenes. Jared and Jensen have freaking amazing chemistry and are in tune with each acting wise. I ADORED that last scene between them. BROTHER HUGS FOR THE WIN!!

Which is why I just what them to give something so I can ignored all the other stuff and concentrate on the hugs. But I'm with you I love to write so it is very frustrating when you see such a normally outstanding show fall so short in their own story.

But I we had large family dinner this weekend with lots of baking and debating before hand and these thinky thoughts occurred to me. But they really weren't probably all that helpful to the discussion, it was late and I had had a lot of caffeine and sugar. Don't judge. :D
E
# E 2013-04-07 11:30
Hi Ale, I wrote a HUGE long rambling response to your post that somehow ended up ABOVE this one. He! Sorry! Hope you can slog through the whole thing.
Ale
# Ale 2013-04-07 09:57
Quote:
Reapers stop time when they appear(Faith) and, can be bound to do the work of mortals with a binding spell (Faith also) but Ajay, didn't stop time when he appeared and was doing the work of mortals without a spell.
E, if you pay attention to the Faith episode, the Reaper, AFTER Sam broke the binding spell, killed the lady that was bidding him. It was an act of pure vengeance, because it was NOT her time to die - but the reaper did it anyway, made sure she saw him coming and smilled! Not a very professional atittude, I say.

My point is, if we are returning all the way back mid S01, we can say that in that episode we discovered SOME things reapers are able to do, but not ALL the can do. By the begginig of S02, they can reshape reality for the dying AND be posessed (I understand Tessa was posessed by a demon). In S06, we discoverd they have a list of the ones about to die, coming from God knows where, and now we discovered they can be corporeal if they want to. And die - something we already knew from S04.

I understand what you're saying, but setting ALL the rules in just one episode is tiring, boring and constricting. I prefere to know more gradually, if it does not directly contradict past canon (like - I thought you where able to do that, because I've seen you do it - no, now I can't - gotcha you!). And I don't think it's the case here. It's just an evolution of the mythology.
E
# E 2013-04-06 08:43
Kelly, I agree with you once again! It's getting to be a habit. And like you, I am hoping that some of what went on in this episode is due to the long wished for and awaited for "reveal" that is becoming more and more necessary as the season winds down. To me, many of the changes to canon brought about in this episode didn't feel like an expansion on past details, or that the Winchester's were learning more about the Supernatural world, but more like the writer's weren't paying attention to what was offered up as canon in previous season, OR, even worse, that they didn't even know that they were contradicting it. (I really, hope that that's not it, and there IS some kind of reveal coming down the pike). It's like the writers aren't looking to their own history to solve plot problems in current scripts... like how to get Sam in/out of purgatory and or hell... why didn't they use the astral projection of season 3 to find and talk to a reaper instead of making up this character (Ajay) who completely contradicts everything we know about reapers? Why not have Kevin find the necessary info on the tablet? It's there, it holds untold secrets that only Kevin can read, why not go in this direction when it makes so much more sense than what they actually did? Why doesn't Crowley know what the demons in his 'employ' know? Why doesn't Crowley know that there is this very convenient back door in his own house leading directly into the realm that he spent all of season 6 trying to find and take over? And now that he knows about it why doesn't he seem to care? It doesn't track or seem all that logical to me and the writing is not helping by not explaining any of it in a logical manner. I don't mind when canon changes or evolves... this doesn't seem like that, this seems more like disregard.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-06 11:24
Quote:
Why doesn't Crowley know what the demons in his 'employ' know? Why doesn't Crowley know that there is this very convenient back door in his own house leading directly into the realm that he spent all of season 6 trying to find and take over? And now that he knows about it why doesn't he seem to care?
Crowley DID know what the crossroads demon knew - that's why the crossroads demon wanted Sam and Dean to kill him. "Better death than Crowley." What Crowley didn't know was what Sam was doing in Hell, because Crowley doesn't have that half of the tablet.

We must assume that Crowley found about rogue reapers and the smuggling route between Purgatory and Hell post S6 (probably post S7, actually). During S6 Crowley was new to the King of Hell bit. All he knew was that Purgatory was "vast and Hell-adjacent." He was learning things, trying to keep and solidify his power. Now it's certainly solidified - he's widely feared - and he cares very much about the fact that Sam and Dean now know about this passageway - that's why he killed Ajay.
E
# E 2013-04-06 13:02
If Crowley knew all that, then why leave his fortress defenseless? He knows about an easily accessible back door and just leaves it there unguarded so Sam can waltz right in and not be confronted by anything that might bar his way? That makes zero sense........un less....... Sam was supposed to easily go through the back door, because Bobby was a planted soul provided by Naomi because the two of them are in cahoots!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-06 13:38
By the time Crowley knew about Sam crossing the border, Sam was already down there. Crowley had no reason to guard that passageway more heavily because it was made solely for reapers smuggling souls - a secret he expected to be kept - which was obviously a mistake on his part, but he's made mistakes before. Crowley was doing damage control trying to get his people to find Sam and stop him (that scene in the office setting). This leads me to believe that Hell is a very large place (I suppose it would have to be). Crowley was there though, when Sam made it topside, so he at least knew where he'd be getting out. I think he wanted to see what Sam had smuggled out of Hell.

I'm open to the possibility that Naomi and Crowley are working together, or something...I doubt it, but I'm certainly open to it! :)
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-06 08:58
Quote:
Again if this isn't part some big major plan, than they should have skipped the rogue reaper and had a spell to get into Purgatory and another to open a gate from there to Hell or something like that WRITTEN ON THE TABLET.
Agree KELLY. I wholeheartedly agree that the mistake is wholly fall on the writer of this episode's shoulder in this one.
I mean, come on they have the means. The tablet is all knowing, they could just write a spell or something to open a crack or a ritual to transfer Human's soul to Hell within 24 hours.

Kevin said: "Fear not guys, I also happen to translate a ritual to transfer a human soul to hell within 24 hours, but with a detrimental effect on said soul, of course."
Then, they can go angst about the plight of Sam's soul in Hell.

It's just ... I don't know, man. The means is right there. What's wrong with this writer?!

Instead of creating new plausible and questionable character with no history nor explanation.
pucklady
# pucklady 2013-04-05 11:15
Quote:
One small example then. The show established one simple rule for demons, angels, and reapers. The are NOT corporeal. Angels and demons have to have human vessels.
How do you know that reapers can't have vessels, too? We've never met a reaper gone rogue before, so we don't know what their rules are. Boss Death surely knows about his reapers gone wrong, but he seems to not be willing to take action on it. I don't have a problem with any of it.
E
# E 2013-04-06 09:09
Hi Pucklady, Sorry, but I have to disagree with you and agree with Ginger on this one. The rules for the show are established by what we see happening in each episode. There has been no indication in any previous episode that contained reapers (and there have been quite a few going all the way back to the season 1's Faith) that reapers a. need a vessel, or b. can even take on a vessel if the wanted to, which none of them have shown any inclination to want to. They are not angels, and they are not demons. Their job is to ferry the dead to heaven or hell and can only be seen by angels and the dying and we know that they are not allowed to interfere in what is happening with the living, nor are the allowed to force the dying to follow them to their final destination. That's it, that is all that has been established about them so far in the show. If reapers were intended to be able to be seen by the living then Dean could have just walked around as his usual self in Appointment in Samara and wouldn't have had to wear Death's ring or be told over and over again by Tessa that no one would be able to see him and that he wouldn't be able to interfere in when or how people were going to die. Those are the established rules up to this point in the show.

The introduction of Ajay contradicts all of those rules, but provides zero explanation as to WHY he doesn't conform to the rules in the first place or even why its important that he's different. Is he corporeal because he's rogue and if so, why does being rogue suddenly make it so that you can drive taxi's, eat pizza and discuss going to hell with the Winchesters? Just saying he's a rogue reaper doesn't cut it. He was presented in corporeal form and in total contradiction to 7 years of established canon for no other reason than it was convenient to the writers in this instance, or because the writers couldn't think of anything else. Ajay's dead now and his special qualities as one of the only corporeal reapers in the history of the world turns out not to mean much to anyone except to destroy established canon for the sake of convenience. It really seems like the writers are taking the easy way out more and more. I sooooo don't want this to be true, but I am having a harder and harder time ignoring what is right in front of my eyes....
blushenka
# blushenka 2013-04-05 05:31
I usually lurk in here, but seeing such a well phrased post mirroring my very thoughts, I had to reply to let people know that I fully agree.

Btw in reply to a later post by Bamboo24: I don't think angel blades 'trump everything', not with reapers. Reapers can only be killed by the scythe.

Anyway I could rant more about this but I'll just stop here, so I won't ruin it for the people who still like the show.

For me the show's a goner though - it does seem to go on solely for syndication purposes. I'm not referring only to this episode either, for me Season 8 overall so far failed at storytelling. But this episode was a particular dissappointment as it showed complete disregard to the show's previous history.
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-04-04 21:22
I agree with you Ginger I thought it was awful, have these writer's ever studied the back csnon on the show. Rouge reapers that you just find on a street corner wth. 2 zips and your into hell and Dean has a burger with vegan Kevin. I thought hell was cheesy.

What did I like Benny and Dean. Naomi and Dean. Jensen was looking scumpious with his green eyes in the green shirt. Shallow pool, I am going to watch the episode again and see if it improves on rewatch. SPN please fire these writer's I am sure there are tons of eager writers out there waiting for a chance to show their stuff.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-04-05 01:01
As I said, I liked the episode. As usual, though, I get distracted by the little things when I read the comments. Everyone keeps saying Kevin is a vegan. I don't think so - he spent n entire episode eating hotdogs - definitely not vegan approved food! I thought Kevin just told the leviathans he was vegan so he would not have to eat their tainted food when Dick kidnapped him. Did e ever tell Sam and Dwan he was vegan?
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-04-04 23:03
I havr started to watch this again but have to take a break for a minutem so far I am enjoying it more on the second go around, I was just in a bad mood I guess as I took a really bad fall and not so good. Will watch some more later. I want Sam explained and to feel good about him.
sofia
# sofia 2013-04-04 23:42
Glad you decided to give the episode another try. I guess the plot holes got to people much more than they did me.

After over 150 episodes I think mythology is bound to change a bit. They have shaken things up countless times over the last seven seasons. If Supernatural was the same show it was in season one, with the exact same mythology, I can honestly say that I don't know if I'd still be watching it. I loved season one but I have also loved the evolution of the show over the years. Not that this excuses all the plot holes in this episode, some of it just comes down to lazy writing and timing constrictions. But I personally don't see this single episode harming the series as a whole. So there's my two cents. And now I feel like I'm rambling. :)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-04-05 01:05
Great Review!!! I totally on board with the Sam not looking for Dean thing, but I think the fact that it has been mentioned twice in 3 episode so close to the end of the season is an indication that the story isn't over.
E
# E 2013-04-05 08:18
Sofia, I don't think it was Crowley who nabbed Kevin, and here's why. It's true that Cowley has been hunting for Kevin all this time and I am sure he still wants him, but the boat he's using is warded against demons, so how did he just smash through those windows? What changed about the demon wards that allowed him to break through them at that moment? And if Crowley ha really only been biding his time, waiting until Kevin was vulnerable to snatch him again, why did he wait until Kevin had hidden the tablet and no longer had it in his possession? Why wouldn't Crowley have grabbed Kevin at a time he was alone AND had the tablet if he could do so? Kevin was alone for months and months working on that tablet, Crowley could have grabbed him at any time. No, I think it's either Naomi or those dang pills he's been popping that has done it.
kaj
# kaj 2013-04-07 00:06
Crowley breaking into the boat could be a hallucination sent by Naomi. She's an expert on mind control. Also I believe so far it's only angel who can enter human's mind without possessing them.

Cas and Anna entered Dean's dreams few times. Lucifer entered Sam's dreams. Lucifer fucked with Nick's mind before possessing him. Zachariah's fucked with Sam and Dean's mind.

Kevin could be hallucinating too and like Sam seeing things that's not there. I was waiting for Sam or Dean to smell sulfur in the boat or notice about the broken window. But no they didn't acknowledged that Kevin is somehow kidnapped. They think that he ran away.

Naomi's own words said that they didn't guard the boat against angels. Could be a clue that only angels can enter it and Kevin's disappearance is all her doing.

I'm also waiting what becomes of Mrs. Tran. Where's she now? Does she really dead?
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-04-05 08:19
Hi Sofia, great review. I must admit I did like the episode. It had so much going on. I'm one of those who will definitely miss Benny, but the fact that Dean told Sam that he didn't burn his bones makes me hopeful that he will be back some time in the future.

Poor Kevin, taking so many drugs trying to stay awake, you know that screwed up his noggin somehow. I do think it was Crowley in his head, but I don't believe he's the one that took him, I'm more inclined toward Naomi. The place was heavily warded against demons, but not against angels, which was a big mistake IMO. Now both Kevin & Castiel have disappeared with both tablets. I think Naomi helping the Winchesters was just a ploy to try to get on their good side, and I'm sure it won't work. The guys have learned their lesson the hard way not to trust angels, damn, even Castiel betrayed them.

Now, about Crowley, you're right that he is the greatest villain SPN has ever had, he is one scary mofo. "I am forever" indeed. Reminded me of the line: "My name is Legion for We are many". That, and he's got the best one-liners. Jumbo Winchester, Ha. :lol:

Saved the best for last. Bobby! :-) Just seeing him for that little bit brought back how much I miss him. Not just Bobby, I miss Jim Beaver, he had such great chemistry with Jared & Jensen. I'm also very glad that Sam was the one doing the rescuing. Redeems him a little bit for not looking for Dean no? I know this is a sore spot for alot of the fandom and for you obviously, but I've made my peace with it a long time ago. We should just forgive Sam and move on, I think Dean has already. Sam probably feels bad enough about it anyway. Okay, I need to take a step back here and tell myself that these are characters on a television show. :D

Next episode looks intriguing to say the least. I like Charlie and I really like Robbie Thompson, so onto the mini-hiatus. ;-)
Bevie
# Bevie 2013-04-05 11:47
To answer you Sofia, yes I liked this episode, and yes, I loooooove Benny! Beeeeennnnnnny! No! How horrible for Dean to have to chop off his friend's head and how brave of Benny to want him to. I really hope that we will get to see Benny again, perhaps next season? I'm hoping he can remain a close friend to the boys and find some contentment here on earth without biting innocent people. I just wish Bobby could come back somehow. Sera made her biggest mistake when she killed him off. Never never should have happened! :-?

I'm not getting my panties in a twist over the different ways to get into these places. (Hell and Purgatory). Remember back in "Clap Your Hands" the leprechaun told Sam he could get in the back door of hell, along with other fairies. Also, the reaper was a rogue reaper so why not wear a meat suit? What is Death wearing when he eats pizza and pickle chips? :P

This is my show from the beginning to the end of it and then some, with dvds everlasting! Long may it live and prosper! ;-)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-04-05 12:00
Dean's response to hearing of Benny's loneliness and feeling of non-belonging was so heartbreaking:

"As soon as you get back, we're gonna fix that."

God love 'em both.

I knew as soon as he said that Benny wasn't coming back. But man, I wish to see him again, too!
missingmikey
# missingmikey 2013-04-05 13:06
I have the same problems with the show because of the errors in it and, after reading others' explanations, I still have the same problems. However, my biggest problem is what they did to Dean in this episode. After his "soul hurts" speech to soulless Sam, he gives Kevin "there's no end" speech! And, seriously he didn't hear Kevin leaving that boat with every door including the one Kevin comes back in squealing! He's a hunter!
thisoldbag58
# thisoldbag58 2013-04-05 13:48
I enjoyed this episode very much. There is nothing in it that can't be logically explained depending on point of view and what you consider canon (vs what I may consider canon). This season has opened up whole new possibilities.

There is only one item that nagged at me and that was the whole Sam not looking for Dean part. I am perfectly fine with that, if that is what it is or turns out to be. And I can understand Dean being miffed about it; he has always been a hypocrite. He walked away for a year, even tarped the Impala. But now, Bobby throws that back at him? The guy who refused to tell Dean of Sam's return from the cage because Dean deserved a life? That was a heartbreaker for me and I do hope there will be some resolution or explanation.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-04-05 15:30
Quote:
I enjoyed this episode very much. There is nothing in it that can't be logically explained depending on point of view and what you consider canon (vs what I may consider canon). This season has opened up whole new possibilities.

There is only one item that nagged at me and that was the whole Sam not looking for Dean part. I am perfectly fine with that, if that is what it is or turns out to be. And I can understand Dean being miffed about it; he has always been a hypocrite. He walked away for a year, even tarped the Impala. But now, Bobby throws that back at him? The guy who refused to tell Dean of Sam's return from the cage because Dean deserved a life? That was a heartbreaker for me and I do hope there will be some resolution or explanation.
If you recall, Bobby was also angry when he found out that Benny was Dean's buddy; the majority of the audience's perception was that Benny was a good guy, and Sam found that out first hand when Benny helped them get out of purgatory, but Bobby's first instinct as a hunter was to not trust a vampire (same as Sam's reaction earlier this season, though in Sam's case there was some sibling crap at play too i.e. Dean saying Benny's been a better brother too me, Benny has never let me down, etc.).

Bobby also said they both went off the rails while he was gone, which from his perception was absolutely true. His reaction to Sam not looking for Dean made sense as well... but, you're right, the fact that they've brought this up a couple of times recently tells me that they're either doing this to really piss off the vast majority of fans that found this to be OOC and unexplainable for Sam, or there's more to the story and it's going to be revealed in an upcoming episode. IMO there's more to the story that's going to be revealed. Only question is whether this was the plan all along, or they're doing it because of the mostly negative fan reaction.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-04-06 00:27
I enjoyed your review Sofia and some of the comments have been great :-)

There was so much to love about this episode - Sam going to Hell via purgatory (I was so afraid for him), finding Bobby & getting his soul to heaven (where it belongs), Dean and Benny (sob), the great BIG beautiful hug between our favourite brothers, and the ending with Kevin (what exactly is going on there?) :-?

I must admit I hadn't given much thought to 'holes in the plot' as others seem to be upset about... and I like the counter-argumen ts offered by Bamboo24, Ale & others in the comments above. It has helped to rectify any misgivings I was starting to have about the episode (which I really just loved).

My only minor criticism is that this would've been excellent as two parts, so we could've spent more time in hell. I would've liked to see Sam struggling a bit more with being back in the vicinity of the cage (even if it was a different part of hell). But there simply wasn't time for it in a single episode.

What I did like though was the implication that things took a long time. For example, we know it took Sam seven hours to even find the portal to hell, thanks to the taxi driver telling Crowley that he was picking up Sam in 17 hours. This scene was just before Sam had entered hell.

I also think that Sam placing his watch at the entrance was a deliberate move to remind us that time is different in hell. So, if we assume that it also took seven hours to get back to the meeting place by the 24-hour mark, this means Sam was in hell for about 10 hours. And, by my very rough calculations, that is 50-60 hours in hell time.

When you think of it in these terms, perhaps it wasn't so easy to get Bobby out. Unfortunately, it did seem like Sam found Bobby fairly quickly and easily. But, that's why I like the very deliberate placement and collection of the watch. I'm sure it was meant to imply more time had gone by than we thought... and I can live with that.

Can't wait for the last 4 episodes :D
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-04-06 22:19
Quote:
this means Sam was in hell for about 10 hours. And, by my very rough calculations, that is 50-60 hours in hell time.
Woops, I was never very good at math :oops:

This should have been 50-60 days, not hours. My rough re-calculation is 5 days for every hour in hell.... that's what it would've felt like for Sam. Ouch! He did look world-weary when he got back :sad:
paloma
# paloma 2013-04-13 23:16
In reality I can't see how can be that 24 hours either.