WARNING!!!  If you haven't seen "Goodbye Stranger," read no further!  There are going to be lots of spoilers and theories and discussion about the episode, and you'll want to see it yourself before you read about it secondhand!  But when you have seen it, come and join me and discuss!


Whoa,  Whoa,  I VERY much enjoyed that episode.  Robbie Thompson has absolutely killed all his episodes this season, I think.  I can't wait to see what he has in store for us next.  Everyone just nailed it tonight.  The one thing I'm still upset about, though, is...

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEG!  NOOOOOOO!  WHY?!?!?!?!?

Look, I know she was a demon.  I know she has done very, truly, horrible things on this show in the past.  LOTS of them.  But you know what?  I still loved her character.  She was snarky and evil and brutal and duplicitous and interesting and fun and horrible and all manner of things.  But I still didn't want her to die, and if she had to die, part of me wishes it had been some insane plot twist or overthrowing Crowley or giant explosion or something fittingly glorious.  But another part of me is saying, "no, in war and conflict, sometimes people just die and they're gone.  They don't always get the sendoff they deserve."  But another part of me is like, "but this is TV, and they can do it there!"  And then another part of me chimes in with, "but isn't it refreshing when someone just DIES and that's it?  That it ISN'T this overblown ordeal?"  So I can't decide where I'm coming down on the issue, at least not yet.  Maybe some time will help solve that.  What did you think about Meg's death?

Crazy Theory Vindication!  (Maybe?)
Some of you may remember that in my "Let's Speculate" for "Man's Best Friend With Benefits" that I speculated that Crowley was actually an angel and possibly an undercover CIAngel.  That is seeming more and more likely after tonight's episode.  He knows Naomi from back in Mesopotamia?  That sounds like they were on a mission together.  I mean, angels in heaven don't know about Naomi and her gang, but Crowley does.  And his banter with her sounded a lot like angels talking to their siblings.  Now, an arm stab with an angel blade won't kill a demon, as we saw with Cas' torture scene with the demon earlier in the episode, but I think the visual effects when he got stabbed with the blade and when Meg did looked different.  And how did Crowley get into the crypt building with all those demon wards?  Easy.  It wasn't warded against angels.  I think it's looking good for my theory, though.

New Crazy Theory of the Week
I think Castiel is going to end up taking the angel tablet to Metatron, and he's going to ask Metatron to either wipe it clean so it can never be used or write over it so the information on there is changed.  And I still want to know what it does.  Why would an angel write instructions on how to seal up heaven or destroy angels?  Why would God ask an angel to write that?  So many questions.  But this could be Castiel's mission now, finding Metatron and asking for his help.  It surely won't be easy, though.

Is Sam Really Damaged Irreparably?
Castiel was talking about Sam being damaged in ways he couldn't heal him.  That sounds extremely ominous.  But what if it's just Sam's body self-correcting and expelling the demon blood?  What if that's what he is coughing up because he needs to be "pure" for the trials?  Damaged on an atomic level.  Is that the trials or something else or a combination of Sam's past and the trials?

Okay, this is already long enough, so let's get to the bullet points.

  • I LOVE in media res openers.  And that opener was a DOOZY.  It was so shocking, seeing all those dead Deans on the floor.  Cas is gonna have to live with that memory for a long time.
  • Doc Holliday!  Yes, Dean awesome reference.  And more fitting than you know.
  • "Volumptuous Asian Lovlies."  HA HA HA HA.
  • The Bunker has the best Risk table ever!  It's lit up and everything!
  • That model of the city is a cool prop, though.  It really reminded me of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" with the city in the underground tomb and Indy using the staff to find the location of the Ark.
  • Getting caught in curlers by Sam and Dean is a nightmare situation for women, right?  Props to not having everyone all made up and lovely, though.
  • LOLOL, never ask a PhD candidate about their dissertation.  I know all you PhD candidates will accept this is not a wise idea unless you have some time to kill or really want to know about it.
  • The Cass and Naomi interactions were so tense and interesting.
  • "The strange-haired demon in the kitchen." HA HA HA.
  • "You know, I can hear you both.  I am a celestial being." YES YES YES YES.  That was awesome.  Also, someone finally called them out on moving like 3 feet away and giving up important info.
  • Robo!Cass is SCARY, holy shit.  I guess that's what you get when you learn interrogation techniques from CIAngels.
  • "Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper."  "Hi, I'm Meg.  I'm a demon."  SNARKY!
  • They're digging in the wrong place!!!!  Another "Raiders" reference and one of my favorite lines of that movie.
  • "My noodle remembers everything.  I think it's a pretty good noodle."
  • Megstiel.  Dean actually said Megstiel.
  • I know Misha's teaser about the talk between Meg and Castiel caused a big to-do online yesterday, but I thought that scene was kind of awkward and adorable and funny.  Nothing was ever actually going to happen between those two.
  • "If you want something done right, blah, blah, blah."  Crowley is such a bastard.
  • I still want to know why Lucifer had crypts.  What was he doing with them?  Why did he need them?
  • "Shut up, Meg!"  Heeeeee.
  • I found it very interesting that the lighting in Naomi's room changed when Castiel started slipping away from her.  The window side went from bright white to a sunset.  We had only ever seen bright white there before.  Curious, no?
  • Because of the teaser and seeing Castiel kill Dean, the whole scene between the two of them in the crypt was super tense and amazing.
  • I mean, this is LITERALLY one of the lines in my notes from that scene. "Holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap."
  • Put the tablet back in the ANGEL-WARDED BOX!!!!  I mean, if you don't want Cas to have it, put it in the box.  Right?  Right.
  • "Love it when you get all tough. Touches me right where my bathing suit goes."  Crowley, you magnificent bastard.  Writing for snarky demons must be so much fun.
  • CROWLEY AND NAOMI, this is excellent.  I want more of them interacting.
  • "Tart stole my move."  Crowley, best ever.
  • "Rudy hobbit always gets a pass!"  And I love that Sam called Dean on using that quote.  And then Dean turns on the radio to indicate that THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER!  They're such brothers.
  • And we meet another CIAngel.  Looks like the hairdo is standard issue along with the suits.
  • Why can't the angels find Cas?  Is he protected by the tablet somehow?  They found him in Purgatory, which seems like it would be more difficult.  Is Cas warding himself?  We'll probably have to wait a while to find out.
Whew, that was a long review.  If you're still with me, what did you think about the episode?  Did you like it, hate it, hate parts of it, or what?

Remember, this article is a free zone, so no comments will be moved.  HOWEVER, there are still commenting rules that apply.  Be respectful, no name-calling, that sort of thing.  Basically, use common sense and be polite.  We will edit or delete comments we feel are inappropriate.

Comments  

percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 01:03
Well at least we know that Crowley ISN'T Fergus McLeod from Scotland who sold his soul for a couple of inches.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-21 01:40
I found this a troubling Retcon of the character. If he is not Fergus McLeod, why did his son's ghost not notice?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 01:58
I agree that it is a big retcon, although I can go with the idea that Bobby called up Fergus's son (which really? the kid is resting in peace, not a ghost, bothering no one and Bobby pulls him back to get an ID on Crowley?) and told him that Crowley was his dad and then Fergus's son simply takes Bobby's word that this is his dad (how would he know what his dad's soul looked like anyway?) and said why his real father sold his soul and Crowley went with it.

I've never believed Crowley was an ordinary demon and this episode pretty well proved it. But it is annoying that we went through the whole Bobby/Fergus thing for what appears to be no reason.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-21 02:41
Was it really Bobby told the son that Crowley is his dad or was it the other way around?

Bobby asked the son for the location of his bone. We can still safely assume that it was his bone. Cas at the time worked with him so he tricked the Winchesters that he burned Crowley's bone. Cas could easily switched the his bone with others. We've shown how the Angel sneaked around the boys during S6.

There's a very weak explanation about Crowley's true identity. I just hope they will give more explanation for that and not just leave it. "Crowley's not a demon. That's it. We've made it so." How?

We need a good story telling to explain Crowley.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 10:04
I'm probably one of the few who doesn't recall the specifics re: Crowley's bones. I've never rewatched that episode.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-21 17:49
What does "Retcon" mean? Thanks.
teresa
# teresa 2013-03-21 17:57
It is short for retroactive continuity...it means rewriting the back story, especially changing points instead of filling in gaps.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 01:59
...how do we know this?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 02:11
Because both he reminded Naomi that the last time they saw each other was in Macedonia, which I took to be the region of Greece that Alexander the Great came from. I suppose they could have come from the city my doctor practices out of, Macedonia, Ohio, but I think they were referring to ancient Macedonia.

If they were bopping around in ancient Macedonia, then Crowley HAS to be older than Fergous McLeod who dide 400 years ago. Frankly, I can't imagine Naomi associating with little old Fergus McLeod, who only came to power after Lucifer was re-caged. Just following the breadcrumbs.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 02:28
Mesopotamia, wasn't it? I thought that was what they said. Still ancient.

In any case, (canon error, if it was such, nonwithstanding ) this doesn't prove to me that Crowley is somehow anything more than what we thought of him as.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-03-21 07:52
Yep Bamboo24, definitely Mesopotamia, the cradle of civilization, which makes me think that Crowley is actually an angel. Maybe a fallen one, like Lucifer, or like Ardeo said, working for the CIAngels. But whatever the case, he is older that Fergus MacLeod would have been.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 06:53
Percysowner, could Crowley be an Angel using Fergus McLeod's body as a Vessel? In that case, perhaps the ghost of Fergus' son was just IDing the Vessel's body rather than the soul? Of course, where my attempt at an explanation doesn't work is that Sam and Dean found bones in Scotland that were purportedly Fergus' bones. Crowley certainly behaved as though those bones were his. Unless he was maintaining a deep cover....?

I give up, I'm trying to make sense of a retcon lol :o
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 09:26
Obviously, Crowley is lying through his teeth about himself. Crowley said (I think in his first appearance) that he was wearing the body of "a moderately successful" New York literary agent", so who knows, but personally. Fergus lived 400 years ago and I doubt that he would have had the physical health to look like Crowley's vessel (or meat suit). For one thing his teeth would not be in good shape.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 09:44
percysowner, if this isn't just a canon error, than I think Ciar might be right, that this is Crowley vessel. I got the impression that Gabriel had had his meat suit for quite some time and he did have any of the problems that you talked about. An angel could possibly repair his meatsuit before he took possession. I see Crowley and Gabriel being vain enough to do so.

But like you said it might just be a mistake.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-21 17:56
Quote:
Percysowner, could Crowley be an Angel using Fergus McLeod's body as a Vessel? In that case, perhaps the ghost of Fergus' son was just IDing the Vessel's body rather than the soul? Of course, where my attempt at an explanation doesn't work is that Sam and Dean found bones in Scotland that were purportedly Fergus' bones. Crowley certainly behaved as though those bones were his. Unless he was maintaining a deep cover....?

I give up, I'm trying to make sense of a retcon lol :o
ciar, I like your "deep cover" theory. Crowley's been around so long and had so many "jobs" or identities(?) King of Xroads then of Hell, that he could have been anybody or anything.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-03-21 21:11
I think Crowley was just running interference with the Fergus MacLeod stuff. All good undercover agents need a backstory, and if he's a powerful angel, surely it wouldn't have been that difficult to create the kind of cover story he needed.
Donna
# Donna 2013-03-21 18:25
He might be - he could have been an angel, fell like Anna, became human Fergus, sold his soul, became a demon, and at soem point he remembered or he found his grace. Also Mezopotamia is totally the Budapest of SPN now.

I LOVE the Naomi/Crowley connection! But where does this put Samandriel?
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 18:49
Wow, Donna, that's a complex and interesting idea for Crowley's 'potential' backstory. I like it :-)
Alice
# Alice 2013-03-21 01:11
I absolutely loved every bit of it, including the montage to "Goodbye Stranger" at the end (Supertramp's Breakfast in America was a heavily played record in my youth). However, I was visualizing Castiel on the bus, and then the camera pans next to him and there's Meg by his side smiling. I know, not realistic, but wouldn't that have been cool? A rogue angel and demon off together to protect the word of God. I swear I'm gonna write a fan fic from that.
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-03-21 01:23
If you do I want to read it! But, of course, none of the boys (and I include Cas at this point (after 5 seasons on the show and another one on the way it's deserved) will ever get to find love and happiness, at least until its over if that's in the cards.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-21 01:41
But even if it's over there's still no guarantee that they'll get happiness.

Sorry to jump in. I'll back out if you mind.

But I think since we've been hinted at End of The world for at least a couple of years now, (Nostradamus, Mayan, etc) It'll be poetic that Supernatural end with the world REALLY end. And the Winchester boys are in the middle of it. The world end, they died fighting it.

:D Perhaps I can write a fanfic about Winchester resurrection. hehehe Well, some has hinted about the next generation, right?
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-03-21 03:41
That's why I said "if that's in the cards" ... I don't see it ending happy for any of them but it would be nice! They'll go down fighting because that's what they do or they'll just have defeated the big bad (Crowley/Lucife r/some new big bad) and they'll be relaxing by a pool and Cas pops in to tell them about some new bad they need to go fight.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 06:57
KQuote:
But even if it's over there's still no guarantee that they'll get happiness.

Sorry to jump in. I'll back out if you mind.

But I think since we've been hinted at End of The world for at least a couple of years now, (Nostradamus, Mayan, etc) It'll be poetic that Supernatural end with the world REALLY end. And the Winchester boys are in the middle of it. The world end, they died fighting it.

:D Perhaps I can write a fanfic about Winchester resurrection. hehehe Well, some has hinted about the next generation, right?
Kaj, I'm with you in hoping that the world REALLY ends and that the brothers go out fighting. I don't like the idea of the show ending with Sam and Dean getting a happy ending, it doesn't seem fitting (to me) after everything that's happened in the show and everything that's happened to their characters. I'm not saying they wouldn't have 'earned' a happy ending after all they've been through, I'm just of the opinion that it wouldn't sit right with the tone of the show and the tone of the characters. Although, I *could* handle the idea of them dying and then both brothers sitting in their Heaven, being happy, together - somehow that idea works for me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 09:18
The heaven portrayed in DSOTM is not one where Dean or Sam would be happy. Reruns of happy times would not satisfy them, especially now that they know they are simply a virtual reality.

The real problem is that the writers have actively worked to show us that Sam does not want an eternity with Dean. Dean's happy place is hunting, Sam's is not. Sam's isolation includes the fact that in many ways, he is isolated from Dean as well as other people.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 10:04
percysowner, Sam wants to be with Dean. Yes he wants to live a normal life too, but I don't think its established that Sam "doesn't want an eternity with Dean" at all, even if you accept that version of Heaven wasn't manipulated by Zachariah. Or that he wants to be isolated. We saw 3 short clips of Sam's Heaven, but that doesn't mean those were the other happy memories Sam would want to relive. That was NOT established IMO.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 10:18
I don't think it was established in DSOTM either. For me,, it was established in this season with Sam not looking for Dean, Sam telling Dean he didn't want to hunt anymore and Dean should find another partner or hunt alone and again here with Meg stressing Sam's desire for normal and calling Amelia his unicorn. This season's Sam wants a world that doesn't necessarily include Dean, so he doesn't need him in heaven either.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-03-21 15:39
I disagree Percy - I think Sam's speech in "Trial and Error" shows that he DOES want a future with Dean in it.

"....I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't -- I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it."
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-21 20:35
I don't agree either, percysowner. I'm thinking Sam has to have been compromised (or as I would really say - messed with) after Dean disappeared for him to act like he has. And I especially think so because we keep hearing the same stilted lines about hitting a dog and meeting a girl.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 09:56
Kaj and ciar, I would hate it if the show end with the world's destruction, it would be so depressing. I've never seen the show as that hopeless and dark. And That would make all the pain and suffering they've gone through meaningless. I can handle it they go out fighting, as long as neither is in Hell or the Cage or some other form of eternal torment.

But to have all their sacrifices be for nothing would just be horrible to me. They might as well have sat on the beach with a cooler of beer and enjoy the world while it lasted.

I think a bright and sunny future probably doesn't fit the tone of the show but neither does a doomsday coming to pass. But their are a world of choices in between those two options.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-21 10:17
I agree, Kelly, that would the worst, most horrible way EVER to end the series.

And for me, it would be wonderful a 'sunny' ending. The series give me hope, not doom feelings. So why not? There has been too much paind and death already.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 14:36
Quote:
Kaj and ciar, I would hate it if the show end with the world's destruction, it would be so depressing. I've never seen the show as that hopeless and dark. And That would make all the pain and suffering they've gone through meaningless. I can handle it they go out fighting, as long as neither is in Hell or the Cage or some other form of eternal torment.

But to have all their sacrifices be for nothing would just be horrible to me. They might as well have sat on the beach with a cooler of beer and enjoy the world while it lasted.

I think a bright and sunny future probably doesn't fit the tone of the show but neither does a doomsday coming to pass. But their are a world of choices in between those two options.
Kelly, okay, you've changed my opinion a bit :-) I'll agree that an ending that includes the end of the world is very dark and would make the brothers' sacrifices seem lessened. Although, Kripke wasn't afraid of darkness in that he wrote Sam and Dean being separated, with Sam being trapped in the Cage for eternity, as the ending of what he considered to be the full story arc for the Winchesters.

For my part, I honestly don't think that a happy ending whereby the brothers settle down with women (cos you just know the writers would think that was the way to make Dean and Sam happy) and live happy lives would serve as an adequate ending for the Winchesters. The Winchesters are scrappy, tragic heroes and to see them going out together, while fighting would be a very heroic and fitting end for them. I'd like to think that they would deserve a more sort of Valhalla type of Heaven rather than the fairly boring Heaven we've seen in SPN. When I say Valhalla, I'm not meaning wine, women, fighting, and song. What I mean is that I think that a Heaven for heroes should be more exciting and more in keeping with what the Winchesters deserve as recompense for all their sacrifice and hard work: in my head that means their family is there in Heaven with them and they get to see what a difference their efforts made in the lives of others.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 15:11
ciar, both J's have said that they thought they should go out in a blaze of glory. And I'm fine with that and I do think they could work with Ash to make a Heaven where both would be happy.

But it still wouldn't be my first preference. I have seen the suggestion that it would end with them closing the trunk and saying, "We've got work to do." Having free will but choosing to hunt anyway. I really like that. But probably my first preference, especially since this legacy stuff popped up would be a flash forward showing them there children as hunters. It isn't a happy ending really, because we've seen what hard lives hunters have. But it isn't completely sad either because at least they've both had lives, even if they aren't perfect. Plus it has a feeling of symmetry to it. They've both resisted being hunters at times and struggle with what that means to the people in their lives. So if they both end up making the same 'mistake' their father and the rest of their family made it would have a feeling of coming full circle.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 17:08
Kelly, I'm hoping the Js scenario happens (I tend to think they generally have a good handle on their characters) but if I *had* to, I could probably handle the closing the boot of the Impala and saying "We've got work to do" - that's symmetry and nicely bookends the way that SPN began.

The flashing forward to the future to see their children being Hunters is actually quite a depressing scenario to me. If their children turned out to be MoL that might be a slightly less depressing outcome but, on the whole, given how Sam and Dean both had a less than nice childhood (and how many bad things have happened to their family over the years) I can't imagine what awful things would have to happen in their lives to make them okay with the idea of their children becoming involved in battling the supernatural world.
E
# E 2013-03-21 18:29
If Sam and Dean go out in a blaze of glory at the end of the series then how can there be a movie?
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 18:52
E, do you think that there might be an interest in making an SPN film? I always got the impression that we SPN fans were considered to be small beer in terms of fandom size so I'd never considered the possibility of there ever being a movie :-) I suppose I also thought that the Js would want to avoid being typecast and so wouldn't consider an SPN film.

*sits and ponders what an SPN film might contain* ;-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 19:32
Until last week with the Veronica Mars kickstarter, I would have thought that once Supernatural was done, it would be done. But if any fanbase could donate and pull together to get the funding for a movie, it is this fanbase. We are a fierce fandom and we would fight for more Supernatural.

As to what would a Supernatural movie would look like, it will depend on how the series ends. I'm sure we will get to at least season 10, so we have 2 more seasons to see how things go. Frankly, the ratings just came out and Supernatural tied Arrow in the demos, so the will be the second highest rated show in the 18-49 demographic for the CW this week. Plus the umpteenth rerun on TNT had better demographic numbers than first runs of 90210, Cult, Nikita so we are a hit in terms of the CW, so I expect the CW to try and get the Js to go to at least 11 and maybe beyond. But that's just my guess.
E
# E 2013-03-22 07:41
Hi Ciar,
Absolutely there's interest in making a movie. J and J have mentioned their interest at Cons on several occasions. There's even a running joke on the set; when they have to scale back an expensive scene or make due with an economical option in sets, props and special affects, there's a running joke that they are "saving it for the movie." Recently at a Con Jared mentioned wanting to do a Supernatural movie so that Sam and Dean could use "big boy words."

Who knows if it will ever happen, but I'd certainly watch it! Both the X-Files and Firefly had great movies after the series ended, so it can be done.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 19:38
Quote:
If Sam and Dean go out in a blaze of glory at the end of the series then how can there be a movie?
Easily.

They could be brought back from Heaven with a spell.

I could just picture them, irritated and befuddled, trying to figure out what year it was, how they got brought back, by whom, and why. :)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 19:40
Or god could do them a solid and bring them back for a mission. S/he's brought back Castiel enough times, anyway.

Or Cas, being an immortal (generally speaking) could bring them back.
E
# E 2013-03-22 07:42
Too true! :D
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-03-21 21:13
Why not have the movie be the boys in heaven? Maybe they can be looking for their father, who seems to have gone missing. Symmetry!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 21:14
ciar, I see what you're saying but I don't think has to be depressing to be hunters, but I was including the MOL's. It's just how are they going to utilize the info the learn and pass down -other than being hunters. I was thinking a cross between the Campbell's life and the Winchester's MOL's life. Something where they could hunt and it would always be risky but not a guaranteed bloody death sentence because they have enough knowledge to mitigate some of the risks.

Maybe use the MOL's as a home base, not taking on as many jobs and taking on new hunters and training them. Spreading out the knowledge and the work. I have to admit I would like to see them get a happish ending. Not perfect but something that has a future and doesn't end with them dying bloody. But honestly I am okay with the blaze of glory thing as long as no one is in eternal torment.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 03:26
How is it that the end of the world is depressing? :D Not for me. If the world REALLY end according to SPN verse there'll be only two destination for humans. Heaven or Hell.

I bet Sam and Dean will end up in Heaven along with the billions of human's souls. I think "Dark Moon" is not a hundred percent Heaven as it was Zachariah's ground for playing their feelings.

Ash is not that smart that he can hack up Heaven. Come on Ash is only a human's soul. Angels are much more powerful. Ash's world are created by Heaven. Of course Heaven lets him do as he wants and giving what he wants but still within Heaven's boundary and rules. The rule of Heaven is different to mortal world.

Do you ever think that there'll be a clash of interest among Heaven's dwellers? That somehow what one soul wants for their Heaven is against what the others want for their own heaven.

God has left Heaven when Sam and Dean was there. Heaven is only operated by Angels at the time.

So, what I mean with the end of the world is... when the world REALLY end the universe reasserts itself. And in Heaven, the true heaven, there will be two souls reside there, together. Not relieving their past lives but being given a new life, free of monster and reunited with all of their family. The only thing that Dean will hunt (because God forbid Dean to retire from hunting even in Heaven) is deer and probably bison in a Heaven made forest at the back of their house.

I am of the believer that Sam and Dean's soul are basically old souls. That they will live among human at the time of danger and chaos.

Basically by saying that I want Sam and Dean to become legend. Their body may perish but their soul will not. Or perhaps I just read to much fanfiction.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 07:22
Kaj, I've read a few good fanfics that have Sam and Dean as old souls who are reincarnated to struggle against the evil that's trying to destroy the world. I really enjoyed the idea, although it's not a hugely fun life (lives) for Sam and Dean to be reincarnated in those circumstances all the time.

I'm with you in your belief that the Heaven Dean saw was definitely mediated by Zachariah and, therefore, was probably designed to influence Dean's choices along the line that Zachariah wanted. I don't believe that Dean saw the true, un-tampered-wit h Heaven, nor did he see Sam's true Heaven.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-21 13:54
I know! I was looking around to see if just maybe Meg was one of the passengers. I'm still holding out a wee bit of hope that since we didn't see her dead body that maybe she's still around, but of course I'm not counting on it. :sad:
E
# E 2013-03-22 10:53
But I think we did see her dead body, just after the boys peal away in the car there is a quick overhead shot of of Crowley standing over Meg and the demon that she killed, both sprawled on the ground. Still doesn't mean that she is absolutely, positively, completely dead....maybe if Crowley is actually a fallen angel he still has the power to just bring her back and torture her some more....
Ebony
# Ebony 2013-03-21 01:34
I loved your review! You touched on everything perfectly. And I love your theories.

I am also upset over Meg. I know she's been in the hot box since "Abandon All Hope", but like she said, she found her unicorn; and her character evolved and changed, which for demon character is pretty refreshing. Plus, I kinda liked Megstiel. I loved their last moment together. Those two have had mad chemistry since day one they met. I was kind of hoping they would get to have pizza and move furniture (you understand?), but alas, it wasn't meant to be.

This episode had amazing pacing! It took off running and never stopped. The tension was at all time high, and even though you knew Dean wouldn't die, you still could help but be "Holy S&%!" when he and Castiel were fighting. While the tablet may have reset Castiel back to factory setting, a part of me thinks it was the love Cas has for Dean that broke through the programming.

And the cold open was one of the best I have seen! Because first you're like "The hell...?!" Then seeing all the bodies, creepy and disturbing. And just when I thought Dean was going to make me cry, Sam pointed out the Lord of the Rings reference and I started cracking up. I like the light moment after all the tense drama. Definitely one of the best episodes of the season, worthy of the A- grade from Entertainment Weekly. I am now more than ever anxious to see where the major arc of the tablets take us.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-21 01:49
We've been shown that Crowley has red smoke.
Previous seasons no crossroad demons was shown with reddish smoke. Why only Crowley? Is it because they have better special effect now? Or there's an important significance?

Is Crowley the same demon with the Crowley prior to season 6? Or he is not a demon all along? Ever since his first appearance in Season 5?

I know it'll open up possibilities for plot and twist and I love a good and well told story but it'll also need a thorough explanation why Crowley is not a demon like they implied.

I hope if it does happen they (the writers) will not just left it hanging like souless!Sam and Sam's instant fix last seasons.
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-03-21 02:00
Wow, it just had it ALL! Snarky, fast-paced, villains, angels, fights (OOOh the fight and poor Dean), Dean pleading with Cas and calling him family (sniff), bro-mo's, the Impala, Raiders references.

I love that Dean got real and honest with Sam and didn't get angry with him, just told it like it is and vowed to keep him standing. Amazing scene with the car, the lighting,...eve rything! They tore it up.

This was easily the best episode of the season, hands down.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 02:17
Wow.

An amazing, truly A + episode.

This was so substantive it will take more than 2 watches to catch every nuance.

First of all, Dean was wearing something other than that green army jacket, which I've come to loathe. I prefer him in black or blue, because of how it reflects his eye color. This episode - finally - we get the blue jacket back. Totally shallow 'yay' from me. :)

Second, I loved Castiel's "test" - which he passed with flying colors. Castiel is back in the fold, even as he's acting secretively. His struggle against Naomi was truly valiant - a real nail-biter.

I loved the snark and pop culture references in this one - my god, could they stuff anymore of that stuff in there? Lol Mind: blown.

And it's the end of an era - what a great send-off for Meg! It was an episode and death truly worthy of her character.

Loved in a totally twisted way the blatant "Megstiel" going on in this one. Seems like the whole thing with Cas and Meg is a 'forbidden fruit' deal. The demon is puzzled by her attraction to the angel, and the angel is equal confounded by his attraction to the demon. Also loved Meg calling Cas her "unicorn."

Loved the "if we live through this we're gonna order a pizza and move some furniture around." WOWZA! :)

Oh, the Cas and Dean and Dean and Sam FEELS, as they say. Just - I could not soak enough of it up. The beating Dean took was brutal. His pleas tore at my heart. And Cas's healing and apology were amazing. Likewise, Sam's sincere apology to Dean and the honesty - oh, the honesty - made my heart soar. I'm just lovin' all over the place! Can't wait to watch again in the a.m. :D
just Leah
# just Leah 2013-03-21 03:08
Hi Bamboo, I agree with your whole post. I actually wrote one but it got erased so I am just going to take the easy way out since your comment reflects all the things I hit on, and you said it better!! :-) "A" from me too. I loved it.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-21 04:02
Hi Bamboo
Dying to watch ep and just WHY does Sam apologies to Dean? Finally the honesty!!! By the sounds of all the comments, this seems to be the best ep this season. What do you think?
prix68
# prix68 2013-03-21 10:02
Bamboo- you said all I felt about this great episode. The best of the season for sure. I feel like the show is finally getting back to where it was in it's best days. I'm a happy, happy SPN fan this week.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-21 02:28
Good recap on the show! Thank you. I am really puzzled by several things in this episode, and I am still trying to wrap my mind around others. There were several things I really liked too.
I like getting back to the main story arc. I liked getting resolution to some loose threads. I thought the acting was pretty amazing for the characters. The visual of all the dead Dean's because Naomi was making Castiel practice killing him was stunning. The model city was cool. The Ph.D. candidate possessed by a demon, well-done. Crowley's interaction with the demon (he should have had a red shirt on). Getting Crowley back is good. I love to hate him. Getting Meg back and filling in that little piece of the puzzle from Season 7 finale was good, trying to remake her as a sympathetic character, not so much. I loved Dean calling Sam on his lies, but I do love the caring brother stuff including the easy interactions earlier at the bunker.
Areas I had problems with:
1.) Why would Sam risk Amelia's life (no one knew at the time Meg was going to die) by giving her information about a woman he professes to love? Sam and Meg were never friends.
2.) The retcon of Crowley - we had his background, dug up his bones, summoned his son's ghost...now, all of the sudden, he remembers Naomi from Mesopotamia?
3.) I really hated the portrayal of Castiel beating Dean, again. I know some people say it was like he was possessed, but he wasn't. He has been questioning her orders the whole time. It seems socially irresponsible of the show, especially if that scene was supposed to imply any future for Destiel. What next, have a rape scene and blame the victim?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 06:48
Quote:

1.) Why would Sam risk Amelia's life (no one knew at the time Meg was going to die) by giving her information about a woman he professes to love? Sam and Meg were never friends.
If you watch closely, Sam catches himself before he says Amelia's name; as Meg mentioned, she had possessed Sam at one time and knew what was crawling around in Sam's mind, his desire to live a normal life. He could have certainly shared his story while sparing the details (names, locations, etc.)

I had a slightly different take on this, kind of sad yet sweet in a weird sort of way; there's no indication Sam has told, or could tell, anyone else (including Dean) the details of what happened during that year so it was probably good for him to get it off his chest..
Pet Caldwell
# Pet Caldwell 2013-03-21 08:19
Quote:


I had a slightly different take on this, kind of sad yet sweet in a weird sort of way; there's no indication Sam has told, or could tell, anyone else (including Dean) the details of what happened during that year so it was probably good for him to get it off his chest..
It's a pity that most of that scene took place offscreen. It would have been a good opportunity to hear from Sam himself about what he went through immediately after the end of 721 and give a better explanation of why he didn't look for Dean than 'my world imploded and I ran.'
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 08:56
I think it's pretty clear that we are not going to get anything other than he hit a dog and met a girl, who is now even more special than Jess, a unicorn.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 19:45
Quote:
I think it's pretty clear that we are not going to get anything other than he hit a dog and met a girl, who is now even more special than Jess, a unicorn.
I have been growing steadily miffed with the S8 portrayal of how special Amelia is in Sam's life. I'm feeling miffed on behalf of Jess (lol, I'm feeling miffed for a fictional character) because the S8 writers have effectively removed Jess, and her influence in Sam's life, and given all the positive effects that Jess had on Sam to Amelia's character instead.

It makes no sense to me that Amelia would be this special Unicorn to Sam. I tried to see something more in Amelia's character than grumpy, adulterous Veterinary but, for me, it just wasn't there.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 20:55
Ciar, I'm ticked too! Does Sam even remember Jessica? These writers have replaced Jessica w/Amelia. Whenever Sam mentions "learning" that he could have normal in his year w/the horrible Amelia, I just shake my head and wonder, "WHAT ABOUT JESSICA?"

Seriously, what about her? Am I supposed to believe that Sam didn't have normal w/her? And before anyone mentions the YED - Sam was not aware of the role the YED played in his life at that time so it was NORMAL for him. He was in college, planning on going to law school and marrying his college sweetheart. It doesn't get more normal than that.

Remember when Kripke had Lucifer pose as Jessica in S5? I guess these writers would have used Amelia instead. I'm sorry but Sam's year w/Amelia when he was supposedly in such grief can't compare to the THREE years he spent w/Jessica.

Argh! It's so frustrating! They can keep trying to make Amelia important but it's not working. Whenever Sam speaks about her, it feels unreal and fake!
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-22 08:01
Quote:
Quote:
I think it's pretty clear that we are not going to get anything other than he hit a dog and met a girl, who is now even more special than Jess, a unicorn.
I have been growing steadily miffed with the S8 portrayal of how special Amelia is in Sam's life. I'm feeling miffed on behalf of Jess (lol, I'm feeling miffed for a fictional character) because the S8 writers have effectively removed Jess, and her influence in Sam's life, and given all the positive effects that Jess had on Sam to Amelia's character instead.

It makes no sense to me that Amelia would be this special Unicorn to Sam. I tried to see something more in Amelia's character than grumpy, adulterous Veterinary but, for me, it just wasn't there.
Well lets face it they came up with Amelia and that sl so they have to sell her as the great love of Sam's life so Jessica as to be lessened in the scheme of things . In a way they are like used car salesmen they want to sell you a crock by making out its a ferrari .
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-22 08:02
Edited sorry double post :-)
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 03:37
This talk about Unicorn is only a demon talk.
I don't hear Sam call Amelia that from his own mouth.

Meg who is a demon found Cas interesting of course for a demon Cas is like a Unicorn, shiny, magical being, not to mention pretty. Meg is profecting her own feeling to Sam. Assuming that what she felt is just like what Sam felt about this so called Amelia girl.

Meg assumes just like Dean assumes that Sam ditched her, Kevin and his own brother to have a "woohoo" with a Vet. (I play too much Sims) But I still don't hear it from Sam's own dialogue that it's like that.

We have Dean assuming what he thought about Sam's past year. Now, we have Meg assuming what she thought about Sam's past year. But not what Sam thought. I still choose to bealive Sam's speech to Dean in "Trial and Error." That he wants to have normal with Dean alive. That he wants to bring Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel. (Sounds like dying and go to Heaven to me)
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 07:34
Lala2, I agree with you that the Amelia being the love of Sam's life feels forced and unreal. We saw Jess in only a few scenes of the Pilot (and as a guest character in some episodes) and yet the writers gave us a very strong sense of Sam's relationship with her being the normal and safe thing that he went to Stanford to find. She was the girl he wanted to marry and her death fuelled his desire to be a Hunter again to get revenge.

I also agree that, irrespective of some plotting by YED, Sam had a normal life and normal plans when he was at Stanford. I also think that his relationship with Jess looked like a hell of a lot more fun, and much more healthy, than his relationship with Amelia ever looked. If Amelia and Sam are two broken people clinging to each other to stop from drowning that doesn't sound like "love of my life" stuff, it sounds miserable. Whereas, with Jess, he had plans to marry, be a lawyer, and have a normal life. I think I'm pretty clear on which relationship was better for Sam.

Kaj, I'm hoping you're right and that Meg's description of Sam's time with Amelia is her being Demonic and sarcastic to show Sam that he was on a road to nowhere if he'd stayed with Amelia.

I really wish we could hear more about Sam's decisions immediately after Dean disappeared. I hate this presentation of his decisions, by the writers, as running away, hitting a dog, meeting a girl - it's too simplistic and does Sam's character a disservice because he's a complex person.

By the way, loved the phrase "woohoo with a Vet" :lol: :lol:
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 09:34
Quote:
Quote:


I had a slightly different take on this, kind of sad yet sweet in a weird sort of way; there's no indication Sam has told, or could tell, anyone else (including Dean) the details of what happened during that year so it was probably good for him to get it off his chest..
It's a pity that most of that scene took place offscreen. It would have been a good opportunity to hear from Sam himself about what he went through immediately after the end of 721 and give a better explanation of why he didn't look for Dean than 'my world imploded and I ran.'
VyperDD - agreed; given everything that happened to Sam in S6/S7, it was easy for me to get to a place where I understood why Sam didn't look for Dean; just wish the writers would have spent a minute or two exploring that onscreen.
E
# E 2013-03-21 08:21
I had this same take on the Sam/Meg conversation as well. We get no indication that he ever revealed Amelia's name to Meg, he jus told her about the relationship. I find it ironic and sad and indicative of Supernatural as a show to give the fans what it wants/needs in an unusual way. Sam has needed to confide in someone about his year away all season long. Because Dean's initial reaction to the knowledge of Amelia was so incredibly negative, Sam pretty much shut down in regards to talking about her and his year at all. Finally, Sam gets to say something, to talk about how he feels and it's to Meg of all people. How oddly, sadly appropriate for this show.

I did have one "woah" moment though. During Sam and Meg's conversation Crowley shows up and says to Sam something like "after what you did to my dog." For one fleeting second I thought that Crowley was referring to the dog Sam hit with the car, and thought OMG, it was Crowley messing with Sam during his year off! Then I realized that Crowley meant the hellhound..... didn't he? Did anyone else have that reaction?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-21 08:42
EQuote:
For one fleeting second I thought that Crowley was referring to the dog Sam hit with the car, and thought OMG, it was Crowley messing with Sam during his year off! Then I realized that Crowley meant the hellhound..... didn't he?
Exactly the same thought came to me too? It would make for some interesting speculation regarding Sam's missing time after Dean disappeared.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 08:55
I'm fairly sure he meant the Hell Hound, although it took me a minute.
E
# E 2013-03-21 09:14
I think you are correct and it probably IS the hellhound, but he doesn't really specify which dog he's talking about. It's a tantalizing thread dangling out there isn't it?
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 03:44
It is Crowley we're talking about here. When does he ever not cryptic? This 'dog' can be anything and anyone. He can also refer it to Amelia.

Amelia being Crowley's lackey is a well circulated theory among fans last year.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-03-21 21:15
Ooh, I missed that line entirely. Must have been taking notes. But the idea that he planted the dog Sam hit is INTRIGUING.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 03:42
When is Sam killing the hellhound?

Meg is the one who killed it.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-22 07:07
Kaj, remember Sam had to kill a hellhound and bathe in its blood to complete the first trial. So, Sam recently killed one of Crowley's pups! My mind didn't immediately go to Riot but it took me a minute to get the reference!
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-03-21 09:22
Quote:
especially if that scene was supposed to imply any future for Destiel. What next, have a rape scene and blame the victim?
The short answer is - there isn't any future for Destiel on the show so this issue will never come up. I'm not just saying that because I don't want it (although I don't) but because it is factually true. The writers will never turn Dean gay. There is simply no way that will ever happen.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-21 10:27
Quote:
Quote:
especially if that scene was supposed to imply any future for Destiel. What next, have a rape scene and blame the victim?
The short answer is - there isn't any future for Destiel on the show so this issue will never come up. I'm not just saying that because I don't want it (although I don't) but because it is factually true. The writers will never turn Dean gay. There is simply no way that will ever happen.
I am on board with Cas and Dean being in a family/brotherl y relationship because otherwise there's the problem of an abusive romantic relationship. I disagree that having Dean engage in a same sex relationship would turn him gay, as he has had many opposite sex relationships. At most it could turn him bi, which has been an implied potential scenario several times in Season 8.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-03-21 11:10
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
especially if that scene was supposed to imply any future for Destiel. What next, have a rape scene and blame the victim?
The short answer is - there isn't any future for Destiel on the show so this issue will never come up. I'm not just saying that because I don't want it (although I don't) but because it is factually true. The writers will never turn Dean gay. There is simply no way that will ever happen.
I am on board with Cas and Dean being in a family/brotherly relationship because otherwise there's the problem of an abusive romantic relationship. I disagree that having Dean engage in a same sex relationship would turn him gay, as he has had many opposite sex relationships. At most it could turn him bi, which has been an implied potential scenario several times in Season 8.
Sorry but there is absolutely no evidence AT ALL that Dean is anything but 100% straight. It is fine for you to want that to be different and there are a million sites, fanfics etc out there to cater to that desire which is absolutely fine. There is no limit on peoples imagination. But it will absolutely NEVER happen in the show. The notion of Dean as bi is just silly, goes against canon and would change the nature, characters and dynamics in the show so radically that it would be unrecognisable. It will never happen.
MB
# MB 2013-03-21 13:26
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
especially if that scene was supposed to imply any future for Destiel. What next, have a rape scene and blame the victim?
The short answer is - there isn't any future for Destiel on the show so this issue will never come up. I'm not just saying that because I don't want it (although I don't) but because it is factually true. The writers will never turn Dean gay. There is simply no way that will ever happen.
I am on board with Cas and Dean being in a family/brotherly relationship because otherwise there's the problem of an abusive romantic relationship. I disagree that having Dean engage in a same sex relationship would turn him gay, as he has had many opposite sex relationships. At most it could turn him bi, which has been an implied potential scenario several times in Season 8.
Sorry but there is absolutely no evidence AT ALL that Dean is anything but 100% straight. It is fine for you to want that to be different and there are a million sites, fanfics etc out there to cater to that desire which is absolutely fine. There is no limit on peoples imagination. But it will absolutely NEVER happen in the show. The notion of Dean as bi is just silly, goes against canon and would change the nature, characters and dynamics in the show so radically that it would be unrecognisable. It will never happen.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
especially if that scene was supposed to imply any future for Destiel. What next, have a rape scene and blame the victim?
The short answer is - there isn't any future for Destiel on the show so this issue will never come up. I'm not just saying that because I don't want it (although I don't) but because it is factually true. The writers will never turn Dean gay. There is simply no way that will ever happen.
I am on board with Cas and Dean being in a family/brotherly relationship because otherwise there's the problem of an abusive romantic relationship. I disagree that having Dean engage in a same sex relationship would turn him gay, as he has had many opposite sex relationships. At most it could turn him bi, which has been an implied potential scenario several times in Season 8.
Sorry but there is absolutely no evidence AT ALL that Dean is anything but 100% straight. It is fine for you to want that to be different and there are a million sites, fanfics etc out there to cater to that desire which is absolutely fine. There is no limit on peoples imagination. But it will absolutely NEVER happen in the show. The notion of Dean as bi is just silly, goes against canon and would change the nature, characters and dynamics in the show so radically that it would be unrecognisable. It will never happen.
Bolded the relevant part.

How? Seriously how would altering Dean's sexuality destroy his character or the show. Supernatural is never going to be a romance so it's not like we'll see him kicking back in bed, snuggling or talking about his epic sexcapades with his brother on the way to a job. It's not like he's suddenly going to turn into a stereotypical, limp wristed, ABBA loving Gay!Boy or in fact any other offensive 'this is gay' stereotype that media puts out. It's not going to change his likes/dislikes. it's not going to overhaul his personality, it's not going to turn him into a glittery vampire.

So with all of that taken into consideration how would altering or confirming Dean's sexual orientation to anything other than straight ruin the show? Because I'm really interested in seeing an answer that isn't full of gross stereotypes or assumptions.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 13:59
To start Dean has repeatedly stated that he "doesn't swing that way". You can say he is in denial. You can say he is closeted, but Dean has ALWAYS said he was straight.

As for not telling Sam about his sexcapades, Dean has always gone on about them. He had Sam WATCH while he did twins. He has talked about the women he was with who he didn't care about.

The main reason it would harm the show (not Dean's character for me) is that it means Dean has to talk about it for us to find out and that means, yes romance be it with Castiel, Benny or whoever. Say Dean is gay or bi. Great, I really have no problem with that, but how do WE find out without interrupting the flow of the show? Amelia turned Sam's story relatively boring. Dean suddenly talking about how he is attracted to a guy, or being found in the act with a guy means there has to be at least one discussion about his sexuality and I want to see brothers chasing monsters, not the crisis of Dean's sexuality. I feel the same way about this as I do about having kids. If they want to out Dean, let's do it in the last episode, so I don't have to have Destiel or Bean hanging over my head. If they want Dean to go skipping off into the sunset with Castiel or Benny or whoever fine, but let's not take time from monsters and the mytharc.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 14:54
Eeew, when did Dean have Sam watch him having sex? I can't see Sam even doing that. I would have remembered that, I think. Was that the scene when Sam burst in when he thought Dean was in trouble?

I don't think they would or should delve into Dean's suspected (not by me) bi-ness either.

"Bean"-that one always makes me laugh.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 15:21
Magnificent 7

Quote:
Sam is sitting in the Impala, reading a book. The header at the top of the page reads "Dr. Faustus". He looks up to see Dean inside the house across from him; he is wearing only an undershirt. Dean grins and gives Sam a double-thumbs up, at which Sam shakes his head, smiling fondly. A Hot Girl comes into frame from off right, and Dean shuts the curtains; they can be seen undressing each other in silhouette. Sam's phone rings.
Then Bobby calls with a lead and we get this scene

Quote:
SAM
Dean?
(he enters the room)
Dean, you -- you conscious? Bobby called, and he thinks that maybe we --
(he stares in horror)
Oh, god.

Later, SAM and DEAN are in the Impala, DEAN driving.

SAM
Let me see your knife.

DEAN
What for?

SAM
So I can gouge my eyes out.

DEAN
It was a beautiful, natural act, Sam.

SAM
It's a part of you I never wanted to see, Dean.

DEAN
(chuckles, slaps SAM on the thigh)
Hey, I appreciate you giving me a little quality time with the Doublemint Twins.
So Dean starts on his twin escapade knowing Sam is watching and cheer's himself on. Yes, Sam then walks in on them after knocking and announcing his presence and sees more than he wants to, but Dean was not keeping Sam out of his sexcapades. And yes, Sam could have left and it's all Sam's fault, yadda, yadda, yadda. My point was that saying that Dean doesn't and hasn't shared his sex life with Sam was not accurate.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 15:39
I'm sorry percy, but I never said anything was Sam's fault yadda, yadda, yadda. When did I ever say that? Also the phrasing made it seem like Sam was in the room watching.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 03:50
I think Dean shares too much of his sex life just to piss his little brother off. That's what a good big brother do after all :D Teasing lil bro just to have said lil bro send his patented bitchface at him. The same with freezing Sam's laptop on Busty Asian Beauties all the time.

It's his way of annoying Sam.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-03-21 15:49
Sam was out in the car when the sex with the doublemint twins was going on - Dean didn't make him watch! That sounds super creepy! Sam busted into the room and accidentally copped an eyeful! Awkward brother moment!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 19:37
Quote:


...

The main reason it would harm the show (not Dean's character for me) is that it means Dean has to talk about it for us to find out and that means, yes romance be it with Castiel, Benny or whoever. Say Dean is gay or bi. Great, I really have no problem with that, but how do WE find out without interrupting the flow of the show? Amelia turned Sam's story relatively boring. Dean suddenly talking about how he is attracted to a guy, or being found in the act with a guy means there has to be at least one discussion about his sexuality and I want to see brothers chasing monsters, not the crisis of Dean's sexuality. I feel the same way about this as I do about having kids. If they want to out Dean, let's do it in the last episode, so I don't have to have Destiel or Bean hanging over my head. If they want Dean to go skipping off into the sunset with Castiel or Benny or whoever fine, but let's not take time from monsters and the mytharc.
I have absolutely no problem with the idea of a bisexual Dean (or Sam), and I'm more than happy to read that in fanfic, however, I agree with Percysowner's view that when it comes to canon I'm not interested in Dean or Sam's romantic lives. I want to see them chasing monsters, and being Hunters, not having emo conversations about, or with, romantic interests. I have the same feelings on the kids issue too; I will happily read about it in fanfic but am not one bit interested in seeing it in SPN. The Winchester brothers' relationship with each other (plus their saving people, hunting things, and the family business) is what interests me most about Supernatural 8)
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 03:58
Quote:

I have absolutely no problem with the idea of a bisexual Dean (or Sam), and I'm more than happy to read that in fanfic, however, I agree with Percysowner's view that when it comes to canon I'm not interested in Dean or Sam's romantic lives. I want to see them chasing monsters, and being Hunters, not having emo conversations about, or with, romantic interests. I have the same feelings on the kids issue too; I will happily read about it in fanfic but am not one bit interested in seeing it in SPN. The Winchester brothers' relationship with each other (plus their saving people, hunting things, and the family business) is what interests me most about Supernatural 8)
Me too. be it bisexual Dean or Sam it won't be a problem with me. As long as they don't steer away from the real matter/ the core of the show that is the brothers' relationship with each other.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 19:44
Quote:
The main reason it would harm the show (not Dean's character for me) is that it means Dean has to talk about it for us to find out and that means, yes romance be it with Castiel, Benny or whoever. Say Dean is gay or bi. Great, I really have no problem with that, but how do WE find out without interrupting the flow of the show?
I generally steer away from these discussions but I wonder, why would Dean have to talk about it??

He has flirtations and flings with women all the time that are generally short and playful and comedic. He could do this with a man instead of a woman without interrupting the flow of the show or having to explain it. We would just know from the context that he would not be doing that unless he was gay or bi, and that would be that.

It wouldn't [and shouldn't] have to be a big deal at all.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 20:46
I don't see how Dean can suddenly start having sex w/men or making out w/dudes WITHOUT there being some discussion about it - no matter how brief.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 22:21
If Dean hadn't been adamant that he doesn't swing that way, he wouldn't have to say anything, maybe, but Dean has said repeatedly to men that he doesn't swing that way. The point has already been made.

I assume you are thinking about us seeing Dean kiss a man, but we barely see Dean kissing women. We have seen Dean make passes at women, do you want to see him make a pass at a man? If so, it goes against how Dean has described himself and would need some explanation.

I don't want romance in the show be it heterosexual, gay or pansexual. Amelia and Lisa tanked. If Dean has a one night stand with a man, what does it accomplish? If he has a deep relationship, it acts the same way Lisa and Amelia did, as a way to pull the brothers apart.

We are 8 years in. Dean has been portrayed as being heterosexual this entire time. Could he be gay or more realistically bi? Sure, why not? But what does it add or take from the show? As I said, if at the end of the series, Dean wants to marry Cas or Benny, or convert and marry Aaron with the Golem as one of the best men, okay. But I don't see how having Dean come out adds to the show. All it does is introduce a talking point that works to separate Sam and Dean. And I don't want there to be any more separation than we already have.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-21 15:08
Quote:
How? Seriously how would altering Dean's sexuality destroy his character or the show. It's not like he's suddenly going to turn into a stereotypical, limp wristed, ABBA loving Gay!Boy or in fact any other offensive 'this is gay' stereotype that media puts out. It's not going to change his likes/dislikes. it's not going to overhaul his personality, it's not going to turn him into a glittery vampire.

So with all of that taken into consideration how would altering or confirming Dean's sexual orientation to anything other than straight ruin the show? Because I'm really interested in seeing an answer that isn't full of gross stereotypes or assumptions.
I have to tell you that as far as I remember out of some pretty exhaustive conversations that have been carried out on this site on this subject you are the only person who has mentioned any of the stereotypes or assumptions you list here.

I love ABBA by the way :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 15:24
:lol:
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 20:57
Does anybody here watch Community where they did the zombie episode with all ABBA music. It was both frightening and hilarious. :D
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 03:48
MB I'm very sorry but when you mention about glittering Vampire I fell out of my seat laughing. Only because the idea of glittering vamp is so ridiculous for me. (hope there's no Twilight fans here)

So, what's the connection between Dean attracted with a male and glittering vampire? i don't recall that Edward is gay. I'm just curious.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 17:09
Quote:
The short answer is - there isn't any future for Destiel on the show so this issue will never come up. I'm not just saying that because I don't want it (although I don't) but because it is factually true. The writers will never turn Dean gay. There is simply no way that will ever happen.
I couldn't agree more w/you, esp. on the bolded part. Dean is NEVER going to suddenly pronounce his romantic LOVE for Castiel. It just isn't going to happen.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-03-21 02:47
I guess this is the set up for S9... that's why Misha became a regular.
Love the first and last scene, all those dead Deans, grisly! and I knew they will play Supertramp, somewhere. One of my favorite bands!
Love that part when Meg asked Sam, ... I was missing for a whole year and you didn't look for me?
I like Meg's death, she died protecting the guys, she kind of said it, ...a demon doing good things... I think it was her time. But, after that Megstiel moment, she probably will be resurrected by Cass, if there is a S10 and the actress is available..
Yes, I was thinking too... Dean why you don't put back the tablet in the box? But I guess, if you are with a friend, you don't really think he will kill you.
This was another awesome episode, I love every moment of it, and the acting! Dean, Sam, Cass, Crowley and Meg, very good characters and superb actors.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-03-21 02:58
Oh! I forgot to mention... Dean speaking Japanese, and with that face, priceless!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-21 04:00
Hey Manstrad
He spoke Japanese?!
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-21 04:48
When he's looking at the magazine he said "konniciwa" If I'm not mistaken. It's supposed to be a Japanese girl in the picture.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-21 05:07
Kaj
He spoke Japanese once before, though I cannot remember the ep. He was stuck in a game show?
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 07:07
I'm getting cheesed off with Dean and his fetishisation of Asian women :cry: - anybody else think it's just sexist and racist for show to keep harping on about it? This particular cultural fetishisation has been building in the show over the last number of seasons and it is *not* a suitable excuse to say that Dean is paying the Asian women he ogles some kind of compliment. Plus, Dean being explicit about his pornography use just bothers me a lot because I'm not cool with the idea of exploitative porn.

These folks explain my objections better than I could:
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/fetishize-asian-women.html
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 13:46
ciar,

Dean's obsession with porn, and yes, Asian porn, is something I choose to ignore. For me, it's kind of the 'white elephant' of a show with such a huge female fanbase. That one of the beloved character's favorite things is something that objectifies and demeans women is quite a big thing to overlook, and yet the writers (who are mostly male) keep pushing and pushing it on the audience, whom they must know consist of a large group of females. It's not funny. It's not clever. It's not endearing. And after 8 years, seeing a character of approximately 35 years of age lusting after yet another asian porn magazine is kinda creepy, dull, and disgusting.

Dean's a character with real flaws (and flawed characters are the best kind, IMO). And being sexist and dirty-minded is definitely one of Dean's. In real life, it'd be a huge turn-off. Sometimes I think that if Dean were a real person I would probably not want to associate with him because he's so un-PC.

But I choose to ignore this aspect of his personality, because there are so many other things about him that I love.

This is not to say that I would be opposed to having a talk with the writers about this. It has gotten a little old, and after "Man's Best Friends With Benefits," more than a little stomach-turning .

JMO
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 13:50
In fact, perhaps this would make a good "Let's Discuss" article. *cyber-nod to the Admins*
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-03-21 21:17
We are actually tossing around a different idea at the moment, but I will keep this one in mind, too. Perhaps it can be next.

UPDATE: I actually think this idea will be easier for us to put together than my other idea, so I've sent it along to Alice and Sweetondean for their approval. We'll let you know!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 14:25
Quote:
ciar,

Dean's obsession with porn, and yes, Asian porn, is something I choose to ignore. For me, it's kind of the 'white elephant' of a show with such a huge female fanbase. That one of the beloved character's favorite things is something that objectifies and demeans women is quite a big thing to overlook, and yet the writers (who are mostly male) keep pushing and pushing it on the audience, whom they must know consist of a large group of females. It's not funny. It's not clever. It's not endearing. And after 8 years, seeing a character of approximately 35 years of age lusting after yet another asian porn magazine is kinda creepy, dull, and disgusting.

Dean's a character with real flaws (and flawed characters are the best kind, IMO). And being sexist and dirty-minded is definitely one of Dean's. In real life, it'd be a huge turn-off. Sometimes I think that if Dean were a real person I would probably not want to associate with him because he's so un-PC.

But I choose to ignore this aspect of his personality, because there are so many other things about him that I love.

This is not to say that I would be opposed to having a talk with the writers about this. It has gotten a little old, and after "Man's Best Friends With Benefits," more than a little stomach-turning.

JMO
Thanks for an interesting and thoughtful reply, Bamboo. I've spent years trying to ignore Dean's obsession with porn (as well as trying to ignore both his, and the show's, forays into objectifying women) but this season is making it very hard to stomach because we've been given a higher number of scenes of Dean looking at porn for what I think are the most unnecessary and flimsy reasons and, today, I just had enough of trying not to be disgusted.

I agree with you when you say that Dean is a great character, as is Sam, with lots of worthy and good aspects. I'd also like to mention that I'm not sure that his original incarnation was quite so politically incorrect as the characterisatio n he has drifted towards over the years. In the early years of SPN, Dean has a strong tendency to flirt and ogle women but I don't think it's done in a demeaning way, it came across more as enthusiastic and covering up for something lacking in his emotional life. I can't honestly say that I believe that of the character any longer.

I understand that Dean is supposed to be a red-blooded, American, working-class, male but I don't see why the writers assume that part of adequately portraying this characterisatio n is to write him as being sexist and racist in certain scenes. And it boggles my mind that someone has obviously gone to the bother of mocking up that 1950s porn mag and then writing some dialogue where Sam chats to Dean about Dean's love for Asian porn - why on earth put so much effort into that scene? What exactly are they trying to get across to their viewers? I know that this show has a large female fan base, don't the writers care that they are demeaning women and expecting women to watch it? Don't the actors have any objections to their characters being given these lines and these behaviours?

'Man's Best Friends With Benefits' turned my stomach and I'm not ever watching it again. I'm going to try and pretend it doesn't exist.

For a while, I could put up with the show's attempt to find humour in the characters' porn use and preferences, but I just don't feel like suffering in silence any longer. I'd really like to find some way of contacting the writers or production company etc to express my annoyance and frustration with SPN's portrayal of women but I haven't the first clue how to go about finding contact details.

Actually, Admins, is this topic something you would consider making into a "Let's Discuss" article? I know it's a pretty big topic but I think it's worthy of discussion.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 14:43
Quote:
In the early years of SPN, Dean has a strong tendency to flirt and ogle women but I don't think it's done in a demeaning way, it came across more as enthusiastic and covering up for something lacking in his emotional life. I can't honestly say that I believe that of the character any longer.
YES. I feel the same.

Quote:
And it boggles my mind that someone has obviously gone to the bother of mocking up that 1950s porn mag and then writing some dialogue where Sam chats to Dean about Dean's love for Asian porn - why on earth put so much effort into that scene? What exactly are they trying to get across to their viewers? I know that this show has a large female fan base, don't the writers care that they are demeaning women and expecting women to watch it? Don't the actors have any objections to their characters being given these lines and these behaviours?
I feel the same. I don't think the actors have much say about it, I mean, this stuff is pretty in-character. Dean's always liked porn. J2 probably shake their heads at it.

I'm no feminist, but I have to think it goes back to the fact that this is a male-dominant show in every respect. And I will go out on a limb to make the following assumption/gene ralization so long as no one throws tomatoes - it might also be partially due to the fact that it's based and filmed in Vancouver, Canada as opposed to Hollywood or NY - I'm not familiar with Canada, and I am by no means dissing it. But perhaps Canadians are not as sensitive to issues of racism and sexism - perhaps they haven't had the same issues as we've had in the US. It's just a thought.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 15:03
I think the writing team is in Burbank, Ca.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 15:12
Thanks Leah; I honestly have no clue.
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-03-21 16:16
I find Dean's racist misogynist obsession with Asian beauty porn disgusting. As much as I love him And I agree with you about the in-character. I would suggest Sam would also find it disgusting and does. His disapproval has never been hidden. Sam is more aware of human rights and responsibilitie s and how they are expressed publicly. That's part of his character and part of how the brother's relationship is played out. I don't think Dean's view is the writer's view but he is a character who has this view that the writers write. It is part of his completeness as a personality. A serious flaw, if you will. I love him with his flaws and he is a person who has to be dragged into change but he can change and Dean has shown this, as he slowly developed an understanding of the shades of gray in life but he can also "fall" again and that is very human. I think his wonderful fierce love and loyalty often pushes him into change which is another part of his wholeness of character. Jensen has several times referred to Dean being something of an asshole. It doesn't mean he doesn't like Dean it means he can see these flaws that are part of Deans possibility to change or not.
And I am Canadian. Canada as a whole, and within our laws and human rights, is very very sensitive to all things racist and sexist. So I do not think that comes into play as a reason. The writers, who are located outside of Canada anyway, I believe, have created a character that has a view about women that is wrong and objectionable and also racist...and good characterisatio n is one thing but where I would draw the line is if it becomes too much of a running joke rather than something that is a part of Dean. I don't think they have crossed that line...yet. I think I would speak up if they did.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 17:13
Thanks for your comment JoRuth, glad I'm not alone on this. :)

Quote:
And I am Canadian. Canada as a whole, and within our laws and human rights, is very very sensitive to all things racist and sexist. So I do not think that comes into play as a reason. The writers, who are located outside of Canada anyway, I believe, have created a character that has a view about women that is wrong and objectionable and also racist...and good characterisation is one thing but where I would draw the line is if it becomes too much of a running joke rather than something that is a part of Dean. I don't think they have crossed that line...yet. I think I would speak up if they did.
You know, I should have figured Canada was even more progressive than the U.S. With a little more thought, you're right. My original comment was stupid. :oops:

I agree.
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-03-21 18:33
I really enjoy the diverse conversations here and the opening up of new ideas about beloved characters and my favourite show. I also do not think anything you say is stupid. It all makes me think good thinky thoughts. I like that. :)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 14:28
Maybe it's because I'm a fan of X-Files, where his porn collection is regularly referred to, but this has never bothered me. A large portion of men watch porn (and women too for that matter), it is hardly a radical idea. Really skin mags of big breasted Asian women seem and Casa Erotica seem pretty tame.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-21 15:06
I can say I have zero problem with Dean's love of porn.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 15:25
Ale,

I don't have a problem with his love for it (per se)...even as I don't like it for reasons already stated. I mostly have a problem with what I view as a constant, ever-increasing ly reference to it. It feels like a reduction of Dean's character. The portrayal has seemed to become less "Dean occasionally watches/reads porn in his spare time" and more "Whenever Dean has spare time he reads/watches porn, porn is the only thing he reads for pleasure, and every joke he makes now is sexual." The portrayal has become more borderline fetish/obsessio n and less "this is something he likes/enjoys." Plus, Dean likes other things than porn (just like Sam likes other things than books!). It'd be nice to see some of that. I feel the writers could use their creativity more...creative ly. I'd love to Dean reading something for pleasure that isn't a porn mag just as I'd love to see Sam doing something for pleasure that doesn't involve sitting in front of a computer/book.

And yeah, sometimes it feels (to me) like it's being shoved down my throat (a harsh way to put it, I know). It's like, I get it. Dean likes porn. But lately I do feel that it's pushed some boundaries. Personally, I'd like them back off the sexual references a bit, particularly after "MBFWB". I realize all do not feel that way.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-21 15:47
So well said.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-21 16:55
Bamboo24,

What attracts me to this show is that they don’t try to make a man less than a man by inserting in them some women’s traits, or trying to make a woman stronger by acting more like a man (as if that would make women stronger).

I thought it funny, at first, when comedies started to make jokes like that, I mean, like making a man hide behind a woman when he sees a rat and make the woman ‘save him’ by killing it fiercely, or something else as silly as that, in order to show that a man can have the same weakness as a woman is usually portrayed as having, and that a woman can be as strong as a man. Ok, I get it, and I agree. That was an important and significant change, a good step toward the deserved equal rights for women and men.

But then it started to be a rule, making funny weak men (like the FRIENDS guys – adorable, but sometimes I wanted to shake them silly) vs. all strong independent women with almost no weakness at all. That was really annoying me.

IMO (let me emphasize that – IMO!), men and women are not equals per se, they are not the same. I’m not (let me emphasize that too – NOT!) saying one gender is better, or superior, or anything more or less than the other – that’s just stupid! They are just different. And that’s ok, why not accept that? I like to think that one completes the other, they are equally important.

OF COURSE everybody is different. But that are usually (let me repeat – usually, not always) things that come easier for a woman, and some things that come easier to a man. Like, talking, communicating for a woman. It’s more natural, and certainly healthier. But for a guy – sometimes it’s like torture! And what is the top thing that irritates the crap out of us between Sam and Dean? They don’t talk to each other! Not as much as we, female audience, would love them to do. And when they do is like, three words, then, are we good? Yes, we are good – change the subject and move on.

I’m like any girl, I would love the man in my life to freaking talk more. But they don’t. Ok, then, I’ll have to accept that, just do my job, try to make them talk but not push too hard, give them space and time or it will be a daily Hell on Earth.

That’s why I hate when they make shows that man are all touchy felly, saying all the freaking time what they are thinking and felling etc. What man does that?

What I’m saying is that men tend to (let me emphasize one more time – tends to) be a little more immature than women, certainly makes much more insensitive sexual jokes that women just don’t appreciate as they do, treats their friends lovingly but in a way a woman wouldn’t do to a girlfriend (like calling a friend names – is an expression of love for man, but not so much for a woman – IMO, IMO!), or sometimes be an ass and appreciate porn too much.

What I love in Sam and Dean is that they can be so loving, and caring, even motherly (like Dean towards Sam), and still be allowed to be men.

I know, it’s a sensitive subject. But that is how I see it.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 17:09
Hmm...I guess I don't view porn as something unique to the male gender, such that a man who doesn't watch porn is somehow less manly. I know many men who appreciate women, make suggestive comments on occasion, and are very manly, but who do not watch porn because they view it as demeaning of women.

I don't want Sam or Dean to have "womanly traits", not that I like gender stereotypes. Objectification of women (or men) through the enjoyment of pornography isn't something I consider to be a "manly" (or "womanly") trait.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how enjoying porn makes a man "strong" or more of a man while not enjoying porn would make him "weak" or less of a man.

Perhaps I'm not understanding how the examples you use (making a man look "weak" to make women look "stronger" in comedies) relate to this topic.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 18:20
Quote:
Bamboo24,


OF COURSE everybody is different. But that are usually (let me repeat – usually, not always) things that come easier for a woman, and some things that come easier to a man. Like, talking, communicating for a woman. It’s more natural, and certainly healthier. But for a guy – sometimes it’s like torture! And what is the top thing that irritates the crap out of us between Sam and Dean? They don’t talk to each other! Not as much as we, female audience, would love them to do. And when they do is like, three words, then, are we good? Yes, we are good – change the subject and move on.

I’m like any girl, I would love the man in my life to freaking talk more. But they don’t. Ok, then, I’ll have to accept that, just do my job, try to make them talk but not push too hard, give them space and time or it will be a daily Hell on Earth.

That’s why I hate when they make shows that man are all touchy felly, saying all the freaking time what they are thinking and felling etc. What man does that?

What I’m saying is that men tend to (let me emphasize one more time – tends to) be a little more immature than women, certainly makes much more insensitive sexual jokes that women just don’t appreciate as they do, treats their friends lovingly but in a way a woman wouldn’t do to a girlfriend (like calling a friend names – is an expression of love for man, but not so much for a woman – IMO, IMO!), or sometimes be an ass and appreciate porn too much.

What I love in Sam and Dean is that they can be so loving, and caring, even motherly (like Dean towards Sam), and still be allowed to be men.

I know, it’s a sensitive subject. But that is how I see it.
Hi Ale, I can see what you're saying but I have to say that none of the men that I know are like the type of men you describe. None of the men that I know make sexist jokes, or refuse to discuss their feelings, and I don't think they're more immature than the women I know.

I don't think men and woman are that different on a fundamental level. I do, however, think that culturally-gene rated differences exist that are so pervasive in our society that people mistake them for biological or psychological differences.

I agree with you that it's great that Sam and Dean get to express the nurturing elements of their personalities but I don't understand how this could also be something that might stop them from being 'allowed to be men'.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 04:21
Quote:
Bamboo24,

What attracts me to this show is that they don’t try to make a man less than a man by inserting in them some women’s traits, or trying to make a woman stronger by acting more like a man (as if that would make women stronger).

I thought it funny, at first, when comedies started to make jokes like that, I mean, like making a man hide behind a woman when he sees a rat and make the woman ‘save him’ by killing it fiercely, or something else as silly as that, in order to show that a man can have the same weakness as a woman is usually portrayed as having, and that a woman can be as strong as a man. Ok, I get it, and I agree. That was an important and significant change, a good step toward the deserved equal rights for women and men.

But then it started to be a rule, making funny weak men (like the FRIENDS guys – adorable, but sometimes I wanted to shake them silly) vs. all strong independent women with almost no weakness at all. That was really annoying me.

IMO (let me emphasize that – IMO!), men and women are not equals per se, they are not the same. I’m not (let me emphasize that too – NOT!) saying one gender is better, or superior, or anything more or less than the other – that’s just stupid! They are just different. And that’s ok, why not accept that? I like to think that one completes the other, they are equally important.

OF COURSE everybody is different. But that are usually (let me repeat – usually, not always) things that come easier for a woman, and some things that come easier to a man. Like, talking, communicating for a woman. It’s more natural, and certainly healthier. But for a guy – sometimes it’s like torture! And what is the top thing that irritates the crap out of us between Sam and Dean? They don’t talk to each other! Not as much as we, female audience, would love them to do. And when they do is like, three words, then, are we good? Yes, we are good – change the subject and move on.

I’m like any girl, I would love the man in my life to freaking talk more. But they don’t. Ok, then, I’ll have to accept that, just do my job, try to make them talk but not push too hard, give them space and time or it will be a daily Hell on Earth.

That’s why I hate when they make shows that man are all touchy felly, saying all the freaking time what they are thinking and felling etc. What man does that?

What I’m saying is that men tend to (let me emphasize one more time – tends to) be a little more immature than women, certainly makes much more insensitive sexual jokes that women just don’t appreciate as they do, treats their friends lovingly but in a way a woman wouldn’t do to a girlfriend (like calling a friend names – is an expression of love for man, but not so much for a woman – IMO, IMO!), or sometimes be an ass and appreciate porn too much.

What I love in Sam and Dean is that they can be so loving, and caring, even motherly (like Dean towards Sam), and still be allowed to be men.

I know, it’s a sensitive subject. But that is how I see it.
Well, I usually just ignore Dean's fetishes towards women. I don't have problem if it's only once in a while. Like 3 out of 23. Say, how many times actually this season for Dean to objectify woman?

I don't think he did that in the first 10 episodes. We only have it in MBFWB and Goodbye Stranger. Larp is all Charlie. Hmm what else? If it's only in 3 or 4 episodes than it's not out of line IMO. Perhaps they should put it more sporadically like between 5 or 6 episodes.

last season Dean is so depressed that he didn't even think of porn except for HCW
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 17:16
Quote:
Ale,

I don't have a problem with his love for it (per se)...even as I don't like it for reasons already stated. I mostly have a problem with what I view as a constant, ever-increasingly reference to it. It feels like a reduction of Dean's character. The portrayal has seemed to become less "Dean occasionally watches/reads porn in his spare time" and more "Whenever Dean has spare time he reads/watches porn, porn is the only thing he reads for pleasure, and every joke he makes now is sexual." The portrayal has become more borderline fetish/obsession and less "this is something he likes/enjoys." Plus, Dean likes other things than porn (just like Sam likes other things than books!). It'd be nice to see some of that. I feel the writers could use their creativity more...creatively. I'd love to Dean reading something for pleasure that isn't a porn mag just as I'd love to see Sam doing something for pleasure that doesn't involve sitting in front of a computer/book.

And yeah, sometimes it feels (to me) like it's being shoved down my throat (a harsh way to put it, I know). It's like, I get it. Dean likes porn. But lately I do feel that it's pushed some boundaries. Personally, I'd like them back off the sexual references a bit, particularly after "MBFWB". I realize all do not feel that way.
This is how I feel about it too, Bamboo, thanks for expressing it so well :-)

I don't have a problem with ethically produced porn (although I have a huge problem with the ethos of the porn industry at large - I think what I'm trying to say is that I'm not offended by Dean's behaviour because of an anti-porn standpoint) and, in the early days of SPN, I had no problem with the idea that Dean would occasionally use porn (I mean, I could see how it fitted into the backstory of the character: it was probably a habit he picked up to pass the time during lulls in cases and he was working on his own, for the 4 years that Sam was at Stanford, so Dean probably had a lot of alone time to fill) but I think it's crossing the line this year and has become lazy (and sexist) characterisatio n.
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 04:13
Quote:
Ale,

I'd love to Dean reading something for pleasure that isn't a porn mag ...
I remember when Dean said that he also read Vonnegut. It won't hurt to see Dean somehow read one of those books in his room.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-03-21 16:00
Quote:
Maybe it's because I'm a fan of X-Files, where his porn collection is regularly referred to, but this has never bothered me.
Ha Kelly, I'm the same. My two favourite men on TV ever (Mulder and Dean) both had a thing for porn and also a sibling fixation! I've often pondered over what exactly this says about me....! :-*

I kind of like that Dean's un-PC. Ah.. I dig dirty minded Dean (TMI?)
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 04:35
No worries sweetondean. SPN has been my second TV fandom after X-files. And I like Mulder too although I'm probably too young to know about his fetishes at the time. Heee :D

Sometimes when we love a person we tend to be subjective and disregard their flaws. Even their flaws we love. :D
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 00:37
sweetondean, I can't believe I missed this before! It says you're in great company (or at least my company).

Mulder porn fixation was even funnier than Dean's. And Scully's dry response to it was as classic as Sam bitchface. :D
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 14:17
Not that this means anything, but my Korean female friend has always gotten a kick out of Dean's obsession w/"Busty Asian Beauties."

I'm an AA woman, and his porn obsession has never bothered me. It's played for laughs but I could see how it could be offensive to others.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 14:55
KELLY and lala2,

I realize that many women watch porn themselves, or with their significant others, and many view it differently than I.
I respect that.

lala2, I am Caucasian myself, so it's good to read another perspective. I can't speak for others, so my issue is the porn itself and the increasing "dirty mindedness" of Dean.

As a 25 year old American female, I certainly don't consider myself a prude. And I watch other shows like Sons of Anarchy, for example, that are downright filthy. But one big difference is that SOA has strong female leads. and influences BTS.

SPN is different. My issue revolves around Dean's increasingly un-PC characterizatio n and the curiosity of immature and often insensitive sexual humor from a decidedly male-dominated show mixed with a decidedly female-dominate d fanbase.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 16:17
Bamboo, I've never watched porn in my life, and I pretty much believe that the majority of women in that industry and the sex industry, in general, are being exploited. I believe vulnerabilities and low self-esteem are at play for most of those women. I remember watching a HBO special about the "bunnies" from the Bunny Ranch and how "happy" they were, and I just didn't quite believe those ladies. Quite a few of them do drugs and drink. Many of them looked unhappy. It was actually very sad.

All that said, I do view Dean's porn mentions as being "comedic." It's been a long running joke (i.e., ABB) for Dean that I honestly think is played for laughs. I don't think it's supposed to reflect how Dean views women, etc. It's supposed to be seen as a joke.

Again, I understand why some could take offense to it. As an AA woman, I took no offense to dog episode though I could see why others might. I tend to look at things in the way I believe they're intended. For instance, I don't believe the writers of that dog episode intended to make any social commentary on AAs and slavery so the black woman (forgot the character's name) being shown to wear a collar and call the white male, "master" did not bother me. She was technically a dog. Dogs wear collars. A dog's owner is often referred to as that dog's "master." The actress just happened to be AA.

Here, I think the joke was intended to show that Dean could relate to the MOLs b/c even they liked ABBs. Again, no true offense was intended in my eyes so I found no harm in the comment or in Dean's actions. He likes naked women and, in particular, naked Asian women.

I can't say I even thought about that line much but miles vary.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 17:04
Bamboo24, I disagree that Dean is becoming more un-pc though. If anything he is much more mature than when the show started in my opinion, IMO. That magazine that he was appreciating didn't even have nudity, I think he was just amused that the MOL's weren't quite as uptight as he imagine and was sharing a joke with Sam. I think it was just meant show camaraderie. It's not like he actually ran off the "appreciate" the magazine in private.

Now the lack of strong female leads may make it seem worse, but SOA would have the feminist groups up in arms if it didn't have strong female leads, with how badly they treat women on that show. Dean ogles boobs in magazine and talks about Kate Winslet rack. He's hardly a misogynist, unlike the guys on SOA. I ogle Sam and Dean or Jared and Jensen-turnabou t is fair play, IMO.

And I kinda of think saying they lack strong female leads is unfair. The only leads are the boys and they do have strong non-clingy female characters. Even a couple cool recurring ones.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 17:24
KELLY,

Quote:
I disagree that Dean is becoming more un-pc though. If anything he is much more mature than when the show started in my opinion, IMO. That magazine that he was appreciating didn't even have nudity, I think he was just amused that the MOL's weren't quite as uptight as he imagine and was sharing a joke with Sam. I think it was just meant show camaraderie. It's not like he actually ran off the "appreciate" the magazine in private.
I think that's a fair way to look at it.

I should clarify that my issue isn't with this episode alone, but with a collective, general impression I've gotten recently.

Re: SOA - yeah, the women tend to give as good as they get, so to speak, on that show. Especially the two leads. It's kind of a free-for-all. Very equal. But you're right, it's on a totally different level than SPN.

Eh...agree to disagree on the lack of strong female characters in SPN. The only ones we've had with significant roles that I can think of were Jo and Ellen - and they were killed off.

This made another thing pop into my head...the disparaging use of the word "bitch" even in jest, in SPN (and particularly by Dean). Bother anyone? I guess I'm kind of on a role with this topic today. Forgive me. :)
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 18:28
Bamboo, I hate the term 'bitch' so I have always had a struggle with its use in SPN.

I understand that the 'bitch...jerk' routine was conceived as a brotherly teasing thing in early seasons, so I tried not to be too bothered about it but I've heard Dean (can't remember if Sam uses it but he probably does) using it to describe female enemies and I think it's a demeaning term that's a lazy and sexist insult because it carries culturally-imbu ed negative connotations when used to describe a woman.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 19:41
ciar, see bitch doesn't bother me at all. I loved the song even if it did copy Alanis Morrisette a bit. I've called my best friends bitches and guys too. To me, it is of course how it is said and it what context. When Dean says quit being a bitch. To me he means quit sulking or complaining, it has zero to do with gender. I use it in the same way at times. When I've called somebody a bitch it is usually done playfully. IE You won, you bitch. Again nothing to do with gender. If you make someone your bitch in a game. It's because YOU RULE. Nothing to do with gender.

Now when use as an actually insult, I think most of the time it could be interchangeable with asshole (which you can't say on tv). I think they called Bella a bitch, but I thought Bella was a bitch so that didn't bother me either.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 21:11
LOL @ your last sentence, Kelly! Bela was a bitch so that didn't bother me either.

I do think the phrase "don't be a bitch" references gender though. Dean has used that phrase toward Sam when Sam has been upset, mopey, or snappish. The more recent examples that come to mind are Unforgiven and that psychic episode from S7, I think. Women are stereotypically perceived as more emotional than men. We get upset a lot. We mope, complain, and nag. Those are the stereotypes for women. Stereotypically , men aren't seen as whining, crying, mopey, or sulking.

When Dean tells Sam to not be a bitch, he's essentially telling him to "man up," IMO, b/c he feels Sam is behaving like a woman (i.e., whining or sulking about something).

I definitely think that phrase references gender stereotypes.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 21:26
lala2, I might give you that. I'm sure it derived from that. But it would be no more insulting than him call Sam a girl. I don't know how many times I gotten after guys though for "bitching and moaning" with no gender ideas in mind.

I have to admit I stopped a good portion of my cussing when I started watching my sister's kids. (Everyone but their father stopped). So a lot of these I haven't used regularly in years. My sister's oldest two are in college now. I actually asked if it was okay to flip them off now since their adults :D
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 21:45
Kelly, I don't think it's a conscious reference, but I do think "bitch" generally references gender stereotypes. Even when you say "bitch and moan," I think of someone unnecessarily complaining or nagging. Complaining and nagging are acts stereotypically associated w/women.

Basically, I think the word "bitch" is almost always has an underlying gender reference. Again, it may not be one's conscious thought or intention.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-25 00:30
lala2, I disagree. That might of been the origination of the usage, but I don't think people are necessarily referencing gender when they say it. Word take on different meanings all the time, especially in English. In this case, I propose when someone says bitch and moan or that someone says bitching it has moved pretty far away from the original contextual usage. Bastard, for instance, has moved almost completely away from the original insult. Almost never have I heard it used in anything close to its original meaning, well outside of Victorian novels. Now it is interchangeable with the word asshole or a stronger from of jerk.

I will grant you regional usage can vary the strength of terms. Such as, bloody is considered a very bad word, I'm told in Britain (British people correct me if this has changed) But in the US, a kindergartener could say it without anyone blinking because it is barely used as a curse word here. And certainly not a strong one. With the US being so spread out it's very possible that in some regions, bitch is a much stronger curse word or that it does still more readily carry gender connotations. BUT in most of MY social groups bitch is no stronger than ass. :-)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-25 02:26
lala2, I agree with your stance on the word "bitch" have a clear stereotypical undertone/meani ng, one that is almost always derogatory.

KELLY,

I agree that words change meaning over time, but I disagree that the change in usage has been so great that it justifies usage of the term. The word "bitch" is still used as an insult (not always, but very often), just as "bastard" is a word still used as an insult (not always, but very often). And the whole point of socio-cultural sensitivity (which I argue the show lacks to a degree) is to recognize the origin of these words and the underlying stereotypes/der ogatory references and, rather than rationalize or justify their continued use, to condemn and/or change them.

To use an example, the word "retarded" used to be a clinical term before it was turned into a derogatory word, often used on the playground. As I grew older I learned of the the campaign to end the use of the "r" word. Why the campaign? It's about social sensitivity and realizing that using the word "retarded" to refer to any person or thing subtly reinforces and promotes hurtful stereotypes about people who are disabled or who have learning difficulties.

Words like "bitch" and others are no different.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-25 03:37
Bamboo24, I've read both your postings and yeah probably just going to have to agree to disagree. BUT (I swear to God I have issues) bastard definitely is still used as an insult. It might sometimes be used as a playful insult the way bitch sometimes is, but I think bastard always has a insulting vibe, let's say. My point wasn't that it wasn't an insult. My point was the the insult is not that you are illegitimate. It has moved almost completely away from that meaning in its actually usage as an insult.

When a person calls someone a bastard they are almost never saying your parents weren't married when you were born. It is use almost exclusively in modern times, to mean a repugnant person, a jerk, insensitive, an complete asshole. Now I'll grant some insensitive bastard will use the word bastard (see what I did there HA)in its original meaning to hurt someone, but that is not the standard use anymore. Just like gay means happy and now, even though it still does, it is used almost exclusively to mean homosexual.

Just like to a lesser degree, I don't believe bitch has the same gender related usage that it previously had, in many cases. Now I grant you when guys are singing about bitches and ho's I usually want to slap them upside the head. But in those case they are using it as a derogatory term to describe all women in general. So type of usage is obviously key to me. Just like when my nieces and nephews started using the phrase "that's so gay" to mean something girly or cheesy, I would correct them every time. But unfortunately they have gay friends who used it in the same way so they felt I was just old, so now I'm guessing they just don't use it around me.

But that is the problem with political correctness, it literally changes constantly. New norms are accepted and old ones are toss out. But usually it takes years for it to become official in anyway and by that time there are a whole new set of norms. IE I most of my black friends and acquaintances use the term black, but I have a few prefer the more pc term African-America n. I've even seen a few rappers on TV say they've reclaimed the "N" (which I'm sure I will always find offensive) and made it their own.

I'm not saying pc is bad but it is not so black and white as this word is good, that word is bad. And it can be taken too far. Which is what I think this doing.

In regards to your other post, my point was I do not see the show as getting increasingly disrespectful towards women. I firmly believe that they've actually gotten better over time (even though I don't think they were ever horrible), but if you ever find the time to be a obsessive weirdo like me :D , I would love to read what find. In my defensive I was working on other things too-Don't Judge Me.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 19:26
Bamboo23,Jodi and Charlie are both tough women and no slouches at standing up to the guys. Bella was tough if sometimes annoying. Annie was only a one-off but I loved her.Several, one-offs Sarah from the first season was great if not as fleshed out as later season women. Cara definitely held her own. Madison, the cop from the Benders, Linda Blair's character. The familiar, even with wearing a collar, was actually very strong lady and the actress rose above a less than stellar part.

I could keep going even without mentioning the monster or demon women. Just because they are not regulars on the show does not mean women are treat badly or at least anymore badly than the men. And Dean is pretty respectful even if his form of charm does run to the un-pc.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 19:34
I love Charlie and Jodi! I liked Lisa and Cara and Annie and Missouri. I liked the female cop from The Benders and Linda Blair's character.

Yes, the actresses on SPN are generally wonderful. But they never stick around very long, and several have been love-interests. None have had "strong" roles, or perhaps better-worded, "lead" roles. 8 seasons is a long time to not have any female lead roles. And by "lead" I mean a protagonist who shows up as often as Cas or Bobby.

I don't think the women who've been on the show have been treated badly AT ALL. It's the porn. Porn, in and of itself, is disrespectful and demeaning to women. That's just my opinion.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 20:48
But Cas and Bobby weren't suppose to show up as much as Cas and Bobby. They just ended up being popular or needed for the story and so they've stuck around. They tried to introduce regular female character but they weren't popular. But Ruby was an extremely big character and smart and tough and pivotal to the storyline. Meg too and she was introduce first season.

The show is a hard one to have ANY regular characters because they have to travel together place to place. And the show revolves around the boys.

I do think that they introduce the women characters poorly and in earlier seasons hardly any of the one off characters were extremely fleshed out. But they've done better along the way. And Charlie is coming back and I hope Jody Mills. But they will never be regular characters. Because even Castiel who is extremely popular has only been considered a regular in 2 seasons. S5 and S9. This show is all about the boys.

I not going to spend a lot of time defending porn. :D But it is simply a fact of life that most men have watched porn or at the very least looked at naked pictures. And most men without significant others continue to watch it. Until said wife puts a kabosh on it or at least limits it to sexy times. And while Dean was with Lisa, that was probably the case. But it is unlikely that a guy who is unattached is not going to get his rocks of somehow. And I grew up in the AIDS generation, so if it's between sleeping with a bunch of different women or the alternative, I prefer Dean rent pornos. It's just safer. :D
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-22 04:41
Quote:
But Cas and Bobby weren't suppose to show up as much as Cas and Bobby. They just ended up being popular or needed for the story and so they've stuck around. They tried to introduce regular female character but they weren't popular. But Ruby was an extremely big character and smart and tough and pivotal to the storyline. Meg too and she was introduce first season.
I remember reading somewhere that Cas is not suppossed to even last a season. They originally plan it for Anna being Dean's guardian Angel after Cas being demoted and brainwashed in Heaven. Anna is suppossed to be the regular Angel not Cas. But Misha and Cas becomes very popular instead of Anna. So they put him as regular instead. because once again it's business.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 21:21
Bamboo, what did you think of that stripping scene in last year's finale? That was the FIRST time I, as a woman, was disgusted with the show on behalf of women.

That entire scene was completely gratuitous and cheap. At the time, I thought, "Is this what this show has been reduced to? Having a girl strip to her undies for no freakin' reason?!?!?"

That upset me much more than Dean's love for porn.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 07:52
Quote:
Bamboo, what did you think of that stripping scene in last year's finale? That was the FIRST time I, as a woman, was disgusted with the show on behalf of women.

That entire scene was completely gratuitous and cheap. At the time, I thought, "Is this what this show has been reduced to? Having a girl strip to her undies for no freakin' reason?!?!?"

That upset me much more than Dean's love for porn.
Lala, hope you don't mind me commenting to say that I *hated* that stripping scene last year. I felt as you felt about it, there was no need for it.

When it comes to Dean and his use of porn, I don't hate it per se, I just don't like how it's seems to have become specific to one fetish (which is well known for being racist) and I don't like how we're getting a vibe of him having this fetish more this year than in other seasons.

I can understand where the original idea for this element of Dean's character came from. I can see how the writers might have been trying to use early scenes of Dean using porn to show that it grew out of him growing up in motels, spending time alone on the road, and having time to kill. However, in recent years, I've just wished they'd give up on their attempt at using Dean's porn use as humour because I don't feel it works.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-22 11:24
Ciar, I don't mind at all. I hated that scene with every fiber of my being. I found it trashy, cheap, and demeaning. There was literally no reason to have that girl strip. None at all. It was disgusting!

I don't know why but the references to porn have never bothered me. I'm not sure why. I don't watch porn so that's not it. I guess I just don't think it's as prevalent as you guys do. I'd have to scan this thread again to even remember when and how it was referenced in this episode. I remember the magazine but that's it. Was there another porn mention?

I don't see Dean as being obsessed with porn. I also didn't find his comments to Portia to be offensive or out of line. I guess that's because I had the same questions: is she a dog or a human who poses as a dog from time to time? Her whole relationship with that guy squicked me out tremendously!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-22 09:05
lala2,

You mean when that young girl stripped in front of a room full of business-clad adults? Yeah, I was pretty horrified - not even at the scene, but at the fact that they made a young actress do that. Sure, I bet she has parents and I bet she got paid, and I bet she's not even as young as she looked. Still. It was unnecessary and disgusting.

Yes, for me it's kind of an all-encompasing frustration. Not just the porn.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 12:31
I do think what they were trying to do was show the contrast between what human society desires and what is desirable to leviathans but I agree the scene was uncomfortable. Even though I in no way think they were going for gratuitous T and A, it was supposed to make you a little uncomfortable. I think it went beyond what was intended.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-22 12:46
Yes, that's the scene I'm talking about! I was disgusted at that scene and felt I was watching a completely different show. I was literally taken aback by it b/c I don't feel I had ever seen anything so gratuitous and cheap on Supernatural before.

I wonder why Sera approved (or wrote) that scene. What was even the point of making her strip down? There was no point to it!
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 17:27
I agree Kelly, I took it as a humorous moment. I think that his appreciation of exotic ethnic types is a preference more than an obsession. If the show had a habit of demeaning women I probably wouldn't watch it. The ogling of some characters is rather balanced when you consider some of the strong female characters they have had. If Dean went missing for long periods of "appreciation", then I would say it was an obssesion :-)
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 18:45
Leah, when I'm making my case for my dislike of the increasing number of occasions in which SPN has shown Dean using porn (i.e. Busty Asian Beauties etc) I'm not saying Dean is obsessed. I'm saying that he's fetishising Asian women sexually and that each time SPN shows Dean viewing Asian porn that's a racial micro-aggressio n.

The very notion of an "exotic beauty" is an example of this type of fetishisation. One of my big problems with SPN showing Dean having this fetish for Asian porn is the objectification of women and the devaluation of women that happens as a result. I think that the writers see it as form of humour but they're failing to see that there is actually a serious underlying point. It's also rather a tone deaf move for a show with a significant female fan base.

I also think that, over the years, SPN has had a dodgy record with regards to portrayals of female characters in the show. It seems to me that the majority of victims are women and they tend to die horrible, gory deaths. Female adversaries of the Winchesters tend to be overtly sexualised and tend to come to gory and violent ends. I can count on one hand the number of strong, non-sexualised, well-portrayed women that I feel have been in SPN: Ellen, Missouri, Jody, Kathleen, Charlie. To my mind, an awful lot of the other female characters have had sexist elements in their portrayal.

Edited to add: I had a chat about the Asian porn + Dean issue with a male friend of mine who used to watch SPN and in his opinion the writers inclusion of this specific element was weird and did the character a disservice. My friend pointed out that if the writers wanted a humorous scene with Dean doing something unexpected, that he might be embarrassed someone would discover him doing, then why not have him reading a magazine about Lacrosse or looking at a website about patchwork LOL.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 21:02
Fair enough Ciar, I didn't mean to offend. Sorry, I was trying to say that Dean seems drawn to women who have an ethnic look sometimes. I wasn't aiming my comment at anyone in particular. I would edit but I am afraid that the edit would appear to be hiding a slur of some sort. I do apologize for my awkward choice of words.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 07:55
Quote:
Fair enough Ciar, I didn't mean to offend. Sorry, I was trying to say that Dean seems drawn to women who have an ethnic look sometimes. I wasn't aiming my comment at anyone in particular. I would edit but I am afraid that the edit would appear to be hiding a slur of some sort. I do apologize for my awkward choice of words.
Hi Leah, I wasn't offended, I'm sorry I gave the impression that I was. I wrote my reply late at night, just before I headed off to bed, so I think I was trying to get all my thoughts down while they were still fresh in my head and so I might have forgotten to include some sociable language ;-)
just Leah
# just Leah 2013-03-22 18:16
Thanks Ciar! I am glad you were not offended. :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 00:20
Quote:
I also think that, over the years, SPN has had a dodgy record with regards to portrayals of female characters in the show. It seems to me that the majority of victims are women and they tend to die horrible, gory deaths. Female adversaries of the Winchesters tend to be overtly sexualised and tend to come to gory and violent ends. I can count on one hand the number of strong, non-sexualised, well-portrayed women that I feel have been in SPN: Ellen, Missouri, Jody, Kathleen, Charlie. To my mind, an awful lot of the other female characters have had sexist elements in their portrayal.
I'm not going to speak much to the Asian aspect. Because although I don't agree, it might be one of those situations where you have to be of that heritage to fully understand the insult. So I will only say when I have spoken to minority friends about similar type situations in the past. One friend will laugh it off and while doesn't like it. It would be hard as a writer to find a realistic masturbatory material that is quirky enough to amuse but believable enough to think Dean would enjoy it without ticking off someone. I think racial sensitivity is a veritable mine field for writers. I think this show generally does very well.

But I don't think it's true that the majority of victims are women or that the women are killed in a more gruesome manor. Usually there is a mixture of male and female victims and they are almost all gory. I took a quick look over the episode list and it seems to be pretty balanced. I also don't agree that most the women bad guys are highly sexualized.

Ruby did use sex to manipulate Sam. But first she tried appealing to his warrior side and wasn't having much luck. So she switched tactics. Meg is pretty sexual but that is one character. Crowley and Balthazar are even more so. The siren was highly sexual but within that same episode they had a strong woman who stood up to them and was definitely in control of her sexuality and it was in no way negative.

I also don't agree with your assessment that there have only be a handful of strong non-sexualized women. First of all, Charlie was definitely shown to be a sexual being, as was Jodi. Just because they aren't hitting on the Winchester's doesn't mean they aren't sexual.

But maybe the problem is the way we are defining sexualized. Being sexual in nature is only negative if you are sexualizing something that shouldn't be. Such as a child. But most women should and do have a sexual side to their personality, as I'm sure you'd agree. So maybe the problem is you think they are just sexual objects with no substance? Or that they are only showing the sexual side? Or that you don't think they shouldn't be seen as attractive to Winchester? Or that you just think they pick young attractive women only and don't delve enough into others types?

If it is any of these the only one that has any really merit is the last, but even that stopped being the case after S1 pretty much, IMO. There have been lots of great one off characters. Some of them hit on the boys, some have no interest or have bigger concerns. But it is not like every episode some bimbet is throwing themselves at the boys. They rarely ever have sex on screen and there is never random skimpily clad girls wandering around for no apparent reason. So I'm not sure where the accusation of sexualizing all the females comes from.

IMO, it is simply the nature of the show that it is hard to have secondary characters male or female. Bobby and Cas are the only ones that have been around with any consistency. This just isn't a ensemble cast type show.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 08:34
Quote:
Quote:
I also think that, over the years, SPN has had a dodgy record with regards to portrayals of female characters in the show. It seems to me that the majority of victims are women and they tend to die horrible, gory deaths. Female adversaries of the Winchesters tend to be overtly sexualised and tend to come to gory and violent ends. I can count on one hand the number of strong, non-sexualised, well-portrayed women that I feel have been in SPN: Ellen, Missouri, Jody, Kathleen, Charlie. To my mind, an awful lot of the other female characters have had sexist elements in their portrayal.
I'm not going to speak much to the Asian aspect. Because although I don't agree, it might be one of those situations where you have to be of that heritage to fully understand the insult. So I will only say when I have spoken to minority friends about similar type situations in the past. One friend will laugh it off and while doesn't like it. It would be hard as a writer to find a realistic masturbatory material that is quirky enough to amuse but believable enough to think Dean would enjoy it without ticking off someone. I think racial sensitivity is a veritable mine field for writers. I think this show generally does very well.

But I don't think it's true that the majority of victims are women or that the women are killed in a more gruesome manor. Usually there is a mixture of male and female victims and they are almost all gory. I took a quick look over the episode list and it seems to be pretty balanced. I also don't agree that most the women bad guys are highly sexualized.

Ruby did use sex to manipulate Sam. But first she tried appealing to his warrior side and wasn't having much luck. So she switched tactics. Meg is pretty sexual but that is one character. Crowley and Balthazar are even more so. The siren was highly sexual but within that same episode they had a strong woman who stood up to them and was definitely in control of her sexuality and it was in no way negative.

I also don't agree with your assessment that there have only be a handful of strong non-sexualized women. First of all, Charlie was definitely shown to be a sexual being, as was Jodi. Just because they aren't hitting on the Winchester's doesn't mean they aren't sexual.

But maybe the problem is the way we are defining sexualized. Being sexual in nature is only negative if you are sexualizing something that shouldn't be. Such as a child. But most women should and do have a sexual side to their personality, as I'm sure you'd agree. So maybe the problem is you think they are just sexual objects with no substance? Or that they are only showing the sexual side? Or that you don't think they shouldn't be seen as attractive to Winchester? Or that you just think they pick young attractive women only and don't delve enough into others types?

If it is any of these the only one that has any really merit is the last, but even that stopped being the case after S1 pretty much, IMO. There have been lots of great one off characters. Some of them hit on the boys, some have no interest or have bigger concerns. But it is not like every episode some bimbet is throwing themselves at the boys. They rarely ever have sex on screen and there is never random skimpily clad girls wandering around for no apparent reason. So I'm not sure where the accusation of sexualizing all the females comes from.

IMO, it is simply the nature of the show that it is hard to have secondary characters male or female. Bobby and Cas are the only ones that have been around with any consistency. This just isn't a ensemble cast type show.
Hi Kelly, thanks for an interesting reply :-)

When I described some of the female characters as overtly sexualised I wasn’t trying to say that I preferred the women in the show to be neuter with no expression of female sexuality. I was trying to get across the idea that I felt the portrayal of many female characters was centred on the sexual part of the female nature with little proper character development other than as sexual interest for either the Winchesters or the viewers.

I also think that the show doesn’t write a wide enough range of female characters. I think they have a tendency to cast women who are then portrayed with their attractiveness, and flirtatiousness , being a central part of the characterisatio n. I loved the characters of Missouri, Ellen, Jody, and Kathleen, and Charlie because they were strong, confident, capable, sexy without that being their whole raison d’etre, and they were fleshed out to be actual people.

I’m not saying that every female character the Winchesters meet is portrayed as potentially sexually available to them, I’m just saying that over the years I’ve noticed that there is a strong tendency towards portraying secondary female characters, and some female protagonists and enemies, in a way that emphasises the sexual, with not as much effort given to developing other elements of their characterisatio n to a good degree.

I’m not saying that SPN is completely and totally sexist, I’m just saying that the show’s attitude towards women is complicated and it has a history of not treating female characters well.

BTW, a few years ago, I found this flow chart on Cracked.com and thought it was a humorous attempt to say something about the portrayal of women on SPN :lol: http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob/supchart.jpg
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 12:20
ciar, the chart is funny. That is kind of my point. Because a lot of the characters (men and women) weren't fleshed out the first season especially. And because they picked young attractive girls to be the one they were helping out a lot the first seasons. People got this perception that women were treated badly on the show.

But the reality (and now being an obsessive person I want to spend the rest of the day coming up with numbers-but I can't :sad: ) is that hardly any of the one offs were that fleshed out in the first season. It just seemed worse with the women because we did have 2 complicated, fascinating men starring us in the face every week. But for every fleshed out male character. I can counter with a female I'm willing to bet. They got much better about this as the seasons went on and one off characters seemed more like real people not just arch-types or pieces on a board revolving around Sam and Dean. Not that there weren't great interesting characters that first season. Layla, both kids but especially the girl in Asylum, the guy who started the tulpa, the Ghostfacers, and several others in addition to the ones you mentioned. But they just had a tendency to rely on archtypes that first season and into S2 as well but not as much.

And yes the girls were the ones they talked to about the case, but they weren't the victims anymore then men. And again this progressively stopped really being the case. But the ideas stuck and then they had that stupid article about the witches. Which was blown completely out of portion to what was shown on screen. The witches in that episodes weren't even evil. Well maybe the scorned women, but she just took revenge though magic rather than a gun because she could. They also had an all but innocent one who got herself promotions and trips and then got killed trying to kill the demon who was possessing another woman. And then the had the annoying one who unknowingly sold her sole to increase her pottery business (which is the funniest thing ever).

There were all different types of women in that episode with all different types of motivations, thoughts and feelings. Not all good. But not all bad either. But again there became this perception surrounding women based on things that were not even true, IMO.

Yes this is a male dominated show but I don't think that is largely due to the show being entirely centered on 2 brothers. The show revolves around them so it is male dominated. And at least partially due to the fact that when they tried different women in the past they were not well received. Part of that is their fault but part of that is the fans.

And I think another problem is that because of the genre people compare it to Whedonverse. And Joss writes amazing women, like some of the best women characters in television regardless of genre. But his shows are ensemble cast. So you have lots of time to build complex nuanced characters both men and women. Or if if was a two person show like the X-Files where one is a man and one is a woman. Then you could show Samantha or Deana, like they did Scully, ice cold one episode and completely vulnerable the next. But that just isn't an option on this show because the focus has to remain on the brothers.
E
# E 2013-03-22 11:11
Quoting Ciar:
Quote:
I also think that, over the years, SPN has had a dodgy record with regards to portrayals of female characters in the show. It seems to me that the majority of victims are women and they tend to die horrible, gory deaths. Female adversaries of the Winchesters tend to be overtly sexualised and tend to come to gory and violent ends. I can count on one hand the number of strong, non-sexualised, well-portrayed women that I feel have been in SPN: Ellen, Missouri, Jody, Kathleen, Charlie. To my mind, an awful lot of the other female characters have had sexist elements in their portrayal.
Hi Ciar, I know that your post has more to do with sexuality than with violence on the show, but I thought you might be interested in an article on this same subject that I ran across;

http://spn-heavymeta.livejournal.com/425753.html

I hope that the link works but if not, it's called Gender Bias in Supernatural: The Cold Hard Stats and it's on Livejournal in case anyone wants to look it up. Very interesting reading; there have in fact been FAR fewer female victims and many greater female survivors than male on this show. The article was done after season 6, so these numbers are probably even more skewed than they are here in this article. The issue of sexualization isn't addressed, its more about the violence and the perception of violence against women on the show, which somehow is misleading if these numbers are accurate. Check it out, it's interesting reading at any rate.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 12:04
Thanks for the link, E :-) , it made for very interesting reading. I think that over the years of watching SPN, I've come away with the feeling that the female characters (the victim of the week types who die gory deaths and thus lead to an investigation by the Winchesters) tended towards the female more than the male. It's interesting to see the stats for violence broken down and analysed by gender.

On the whole, SPN episodes pass the Bechdel Test (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheBechdelTest?from=Main.TheBechdelTest) more often than not. Although, that must be tricky to ensure because the Winchesters' enemies talk about them a lot and so do their allies and there are women in both of those camps :lol:

I must have a hunt around via Google to see if I can find anything meta like this article for sexuality.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 12:25
E, once again were thinking alike. I got distracted with phone calls and by the time I posted you had completely negated my entire post. Well done. :D
E
# E 2013-03-22 14:18
HEEE :D
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 14:21
Hi E and Kelly, thanks for commenting again. I'm really enjoying discussing this with you and getting to see other folks' viewpoints on this :-)

So I went off on my self-imposed quest to see what I could find about sexism and SPN and I found these quite interesting (with interesting discussion in the comments) so I thought I'd post the links:

(http://rosalui.livejournal.com/93328.html)
(http://fannishliss.livejournal.com/150949.html)
(http://spn-heavymeta.livejournal.com/309907.html?thread=1011603)

Once again, I just want to say that I don't think SPN is totally sexist I just think it has a tendency to not always strike the right tone when it comes to the portrayal of female characters, and it has a tendency to waste the potential that some female characters could have by focussing on sexualising them in terms of how the Winchesters, or the show's audience, are intended to view them.

As much as portrayals of female characters in SPN have irritated me, I also think that SPN can get female characters right too and there are portrayals of women in the show that I feckin *love* :-)

Edited to add: These two comments on a meta article about sexism in both SPN and SPN Fandom sum up how I feel about certain elements of SPN (http://spn-heavymeta.livejournal.com/309907.html?thread=1020563#t1020563)

Hope these are interesting for you too :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 20:34
ciar, thanks for the links. They were interesting reads.

The 2nd one I liked, not surprising since her ideas are line with mine more or less. :D The 3rd I had some quibbles with but otherwise agree with.

The first one I pretty much disagree with everything (and the articles she links to), not surprising, since I completely disagree with her premise. And her evidence I consider HIGHLY subjective. I feel like she must have recently taken a women's studies class. Which are great, but have the effect making the students actively search for all the ways people are being sexist. Just like psychology classes make you start psycho analyzing your friends.

I could go in to details about ALL the reason why I disagree with pretty much every single she wrote and linked to, but trust me no one wants to read that. :D
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-24 00:45
ciar,

THANK YOU for sharing these links!

I especially liked this quote pulled from one:

Quote:
Main point -- Supernatural *is* the story of two Men Heroes -- but at the same time, it's the story of dozens and dozens of Women who are the everyday heroes that make life actually mean something. And that's not sexist in my book, not at all.

Mary and Jess did die on the ceiling, their wombs slashed open, in their nightclothes. No one can deny that. And that did set Sam and Dean off. If the story were less complicated, critics would be right to complain. Mary's backstory as a Hunter and the manipulation of the bloodlines by Angels is too complicated to go into here... but suffice it to say, she's not a passive victim, despite the generic image that's burned into our retinas. Jess's backstory may be a little less complicated I grant you! But eight years of SPN storytelling has given me confidence that Jessica Moore was more than a Hot Nurse and the baker of delicious cookies, even though we never got to know her. The great majority women on Show have lives of their own, disrupted by an intrusion of the Supernatural that require Sam and Dean's specialized skillset to properly address.

So no, my final analysis has to be that with a few missteps (some of them quite serious, I'll allow!) Supernatural is not a sexist show. To the contrary! And that's one of the reasons I love it so much.
As well as this one pulled from another:

Quote:
In short, women get fridged. A lot. It's basically the setup for the entire show. Women get killed for the purposes of manpain. Even when they're not dead, they're often treated badly in terms of character development and overall arcs. They get objectified. The words 'whore' and 'bitch' and 'skank' and 'slut' get thrown around. Every episode has either Hot Chick Who Gets Killed or Hot Chick Possessed By Demon Who Gets Beaten Up Then Killed.

...Multiple characters in the show throw around misogynistic language. It's obviously a thing that the writers use. A lot. ...(interesting to note: The only characters to use such language as much as Dean are the bad guys. I literally don't know what to do with that.)
I guess, bottom line, I don't think SPN is mysoginistic or sexist...however, I do think there is a real problem with the consistent use of slang/derogatory references to females being thrown around like it's candy.

And I do think there's an issue with what I view as an increase in sexual references, the objectification of women, and a lack of cultural/social sensitivity evidenced in the writing. It's gotten better in some areas and worse in others. How much of this is pushing boundaries for entertainment purposes and how much is general ignorance is hard, if not impossible, to guess.

Perhaps what you said is best...

Quote:
I don't think SPN is totally sexist I just think it has a tendency to not always strike the right tone
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 01:30
Bamboo24, first I would have to see stats that the use of misogynistic terms, because I don't believe they have. Unless you consider dick to be a misogynistic. And Dean has spent a lot less time ogling women than he used to or flirting for that matter. Although personally sexist or not I would love to be ogle by either of the boys. And as wrong as it is, I think most women feel the same way, if the ogling is being done by a guy looking like either Sam or Dean. Creepy guy ogling- bad. Hot guy ogling Hell's Yeah!

I haven't seen any objectifying on this show beyond what we all do to people we don't know. I look at a guy and go "damn" in my head or nudge my sister. Which is the most we usually see Dean do. Maybe it's not right, but it is human nature. I think asking the writers to pretend that doesn't happen is silly. Just like I think it's silly for them to pretend that most grown men don't watch porn or check out good-looking women. I don't really want the guys all pc. If they are going to go for unrealistic qualities I rather they have they become really good a communication. :D
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-24 02:05
Quote:
Bamboo24, first I would have to see stats that the use of misogynistic terms, because I don't believe they have. Unless you consider dick to be a misogynistic.
I would love to see those stats, too. I do think it's significant that terms like "Bitch, Whore, Slut, and Skank" have all been used by various characters on the show, multiple times (I'd bet money that "Bitch" is used at least once in every episode). That's not counting other less-blatant derogatory phrases and remarks, all based on gender, sexual organs, etc..

Quote:
I haven't seen any objectifying on this show beyond what we all do to people we don't know. I look at a guy and go "damn" in my head or nudge my sister. Which is the most we usually see Dean do. Maybe it's not right, but it is human nature. I think asking the writers to pretend that doesn't happen is silly. Just like I think it's silly for them to pretend that most grown men don't watch porn or check out good-looking women. I don't really want the guys all pc. If they are going to go for unrealistic qualities I rather they have they become really good a communication.
I think there needs to be a definition of terms here. To me, there's a difference between objectifying someone and admiring them. I acknowledge and admire the fact that Sam and Dean good-looking men. Dean oogles at good-looking women on the street. But I think there's a line between that and porn. And I think there's a line between that and some of the situations/phra ses that have occurred on the show.

I don't want the guys all PC - that would entirely unrealistic. BUT, as I've stated before, there have been times when the un-PCness has (I've felt) crossed lines or been "pushed" too much on the audience.

As they say, miles vary. :)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-25 01:27
Bamboo24, okay this is going to look really bad but I couldn't help I check, at least this season. I have issues.

I quickly scanned the transcripts for this season. I just don’t see the trend of more misogynistic language that you are talking about. I didn't count son-of-a-bitch because all but once it was used as an exclamation. I refuse to say it has ANY gender reference during those times. If you want you can add one son-of-a-bitch in referencing a hellhound but since it is actually a dog, I can't really go for that either.Now it is very possible that I missed some. I was going through the transcripts pretty fast. But I do believe I got most of them.

Sam says I knew you’d bitch about it in the first episode but that is clearly gender neutral. (at least IMO)

Dean talks about those “bitches” when speaking about the Leviathan, but since we met more many male than female Leviathan I think that can be considered gender neutral too.

The head vampire calls Benny’s girl a cow in Blood Brother, which is way worse to me than bitch so I’ll give you that one, but it is said by the bad guy, not Dean or Sam.

Trial and Error Dean says they’ll summon a red-eyed bitch. (this is the ONLY usage of bitch to refer to an actually female)

Same episode one of the daughters refers to the step-mother as a prostitute.

Dean yells at the hellhound you’re Crowley’s bitch, but again since it is referring to an actual dog that one get as pass I’d say.

MBFwB is.......well there's a minority girl in a dog collar who calls her boyfriend master. Other than the fact that she is actually a savvy tough woman. I will give you that entire episode, because REALLY a dog collar and master. The fairy refers to Boltar as master in the larping ep but that one didn't bother me as much, perhaps because they weren't a couple.Dean says drive was a bitch in this episode.

In GBS Crowley calls Meg his whore. Calls Naomi a tart.

And that's it. Bitch is only used one time by anyone in referencing a female or possible female since Dean was talking about a random crossroads demon. And not a actually human. And only 4 times total, I'm sorry I can't count when he is talking about a dog (even if it is a hellhound) that's actually the correct usage of it.

Like I said, it's possible I missed some, but I definitely don't think they come anywhere close to saying it once an episode and they almost never say it when referencing an actual female. I know Dean call Bella a bitch, and I think Lilith and I'm almost positive Ruby and Meg. And I know Jo called Ellen a black-eyed bitch when she thought her mother was possessed.

But I really don't think he or Sam hardly ever use it when referencing an actual female. But I can fairly definitively say that they haven't INCREASED the usage of it.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-25 01:57
KELLY,

I would respectfully say that I think you're taking me too literally. :)

It's not about eliminating specific words or how many times a certain deplorable term is used - I feel like this misses the point. It's about language in general. It's about how the words are used and the underlying message. And it's not just the words "bitch" and "whore" etc., but other phrases that don't use such words, the sexual humor, etc. And again - it's not just this season; it's a cumulative thing. The increase has been since S3, I'd say.

Thing is: I don't think there's any way to "prove or disprove" these claims - they are impressions that I've gotten that a few others obviously share, but not everyone. And that's okay. It's highly subjective anyway, as we each have different criteria for evaluating what is sexist or misogynist or dirty and what is not.

Thank you for sharing the results of your research. I will probably do some of my own when I have the time. I'd like to get some more concrete examples of what I'm talking about together - it would certainly help me explain myself more adequately.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-25 10:18
Hi Kelly, good on you for that research, I found it interesting :-) Although, I have to say that for me, your examples confirmed the impression that SPN has given me over the years: its use of language doesn't always strike the right tone and can be sexist.

I'll try and explain what I mean :-) I dislike the use of the word 'bitch' used to refer to *any* gender because the word has negative, sexist connotations irrespective of how it is used. I think that calling a man a 'bitch' is, traditionally, a way of demeaning him or imbuing him with derogatory qualities that are stereotypically associated with females.

I genuinely don't feel there is a gender neutral way to use certain words, like 'bitch', that are historically associated with pejorative ways of describing women. So, to use your examples above, you saw some gender neutral uses but I saw sexist language in each one because the term "bitch" fundamentally is sexist (it can't be divorced from it's linguistic origins) and it's pejorative in usage (the only reason "bitch" works as an effective insult or slur is *because* of the sexist + negative connotations). Men wouldn't call each other bitches if they weren't try to demean each other, the word would have no power if it wasn't for its sexist origins.

As for the words "whore" "tart" and 'cow", again they only have power because they are sexist + negative and are used to demean and negate someone.

I'm not saying I want Sam and Dean, and other male (or female) characters to go around using unrealistic, tame dialogue that doesn't contain insults, I'm just saying that the show has a tendency towards using sexist insults more often than not and that gives me a bad vibe.

And, I think Bamboo's post above summed up my thoughts on the tone of humour and general language on the show over the years. Since S3, and the inclusion of Bella (and Ruby 1.0) to which I think it might be related, I think the Winchesters have been much more sexist in their use of insults towards female enemies and enemies in general. I don't know if that's a result of the writers wanting to strike an edgier tone or not, but I think since S3 the tone of the show has tried to include more objectifying sexual humour aimed at women. The porn jokes and the Witch's familiar bother me because I believe there is a difference between sexual objectification and sexual admiration - one is sexist and negating the person's existence as individual (there's a power dynamic involved in thinking about someone that way) and the other is thinking the person is sexually attractive which isn't negative and sees the person holistically, personality and self-determinat ion included :lol:

My tolerance for sexist behaviour and sexist language is not high. I don't set out to find things to be insulted about but I do think that sexist language and misogynistic behaviour is very widespread in the media and entertainment (which makes sense given that our media is a reflection of what's happening in our society). I think a lot of people have become used to it and don't see it any more - which is a pity because constant exposure to this kind of thing is not good, it influences how people see the world and how they see women. And with the media and our entertainment churning out negative attitudes towards women it isn't hard to see why women are still having a hard time in our society.

Thanks again for having this discussion with me - I'm finding it fascinating :-)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-24 00:51
What I wonder, is whether the "stats" of the article have taken into account the fact that there are and have been more men (survivors and victims) than women on the show in general. Thus, it would make sense that there would be more male victims.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-25 10:20
Actually, I was wondering about that too and whether or not it would skew the stats a bit ;-)
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-03-21 14:39
The last time I heard Dean speak japanese was in Slice Girls I think.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-21 05:05
I seriously think Meg redeemed herself!! Even if it was ultimately to get Crowley. But I did get the feeling there was something other than revenge going on with Meg when she was talking to Sam. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up in heaven. So maybe Meg is not lost to SPN forever. I liked her in the end.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 09:42
Quote:
I seriously think Meg redeemed herself!! Even if it was ultimately to get Crowley. But I did get the feeling there was something other than revenge going on with Meg when she was talking to Sam. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up in heaven. So maybe Meg is not lost to SPN forever. I liked her in the end.
Meg's always been one of my favorites; by far the longest running female character on the show. Glad they sent her off in a positive light, buying Sam and Dean some time to get away from Crowley. I know Meg did a lot of bad crap but she did help Sam & Dean (and Cas) out over the past couple of seasons; granted it was often for self-preservati on but still..
kaj
# kaj 2013-03-21 05:06
Somehow I like Meg and Cas. I can buy them. And they don't look awkward at all for me.

Still, Angel can't heal demon? If Cas can heal wounds then why didn't he heal Meg? instead of wrapping her hand with bandage?
Or is it just a ploy from Cas to be able to touch Meg?
Or a ploy from the writer for furthering megstiel? I mean I don't have a problem with that but still you have to explain your facts right when you right a script.

It's out of character for Cas who can heal wounds easily opts to wrap meg's wrist in bandage. Cas is incapable of thinking sneaky sweet thoughts like that. He's not well verse in human's way.

So, which is it writer?

One more thing about Sam being damaged. If Cas also said that the damage that's been done to Sam from Lucifer's hallucinations is adding to the damage he is suffering now... That will explain a LOT of things.

It'll explain Sam's hot and cold attitude and rather OOC behavior in epi 1-10. It will imply that something in Sam has already been damaged beyond repair when Dean disappeared and it contributes to his odd behavior since episode one. By not looking for Kevin, by not trying hard to look for Dean. I get it if he wants to live normal but he didn't even lift a finger to find any lore or research or maybe just asking spirits or physic. .

It's there writers... the explanation ... grab it and explain it away.

Just say.."Sam you've been damaged ever since the Lucifer's hallucinations and never recover from that. And this trials add to it."
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 05:22
Quote:
Still, Angel can't heal demon? If Cas can heal wounds then why didn't he heal Meg? instead of wrapping her hand with bandage?
It's possible that since Meg is inhabiting a (now dead) human body that Cas can't heal it. Way back when we were told that demons can keep the body alive, but not really heal it and that the injuries suffered are still there. Since it doesn't really belong to Meg, perhaps Cas can't heal the dead, as it were.

I don't think the writers have any intention of explaining Sam's behavior from the first half of the season.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-21 05:26
Kaj
Yes it is interesting why he didn't heal Meg. I have a feeling it isn't over for Meg. I also like your take on Sam's condition and yes it would explain a lot of whats been going on with Sam this season.

Overall, these eps are defo getting that old season 1 -5 feeling back again. Love it!!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 07:16
Quote:
Somehow I like Meg and Cas. I can buy them. And they don't look awkward at all for me.

Still, Angel can't heal demon? If Cas can heal wounds then why didn't he heal Meg? instead of wrapping her hand with bandage?
Or is it just a ploy from Cas to be able to touch Meg?
Or a ploy from the writer for furthering megstiel? I mean I don't have a problem with that but still you have to explain your facts right when you right a script.

It's out of character for Cas who can heal wounds easily opts to wrap meg's wrist in bandage. Cas is incapable of thinking sneaky sweet thoughts like that. He's not well verse in human's way.

So, which is it writer?

One more thing about Sam being damaged. If Cas also said that the damage that's been done to Sam from Lucifer's hallucinations is adding to the damage he is suffering now... That will explain a LOT of things.

It'll explain Sam's hot and cold attitude and rather OOC behavior in epi 1-10. It will imply that something in Sam has already been damaged beyond repair when Dean disappeared and it contributes to his odd behavior since episode one. By not looking for Kevin, by not trying hard to look for Dean. I get it if he wants to live normal but he didn't even lift a finger to find any lore or research or maybe just asking spirits or physic. .

It's there writers... the explanation ... grab it and explain it away.

Just say.."Sam you've been damaged ever since the Lucifer's hallucinations and never recover from that. And this trials add to it."
I'm with you kaj in hoping for some attempt at an explanation for Sam's OOC behaviour in the early part of this series. We've had characters in the show reference the fact that Sam just left people who were in danger and went off to live with his Unicorn for a year, so I'm of the opinion that the writers know this is an issue.

I'm thinking that my head canon might now be that Sam was damaged on a fundamental level since the Demon blood + becoming Lucifer's vessel and that's why he's been behaving strangely (since S4), but now that damage is being 'dealt with' by his acceptance of the role of Trial-completer and that's why he's starting to be more like the Sam we knew and loved. What do you think? Does this idea have any merit? :-) :P
Joyful
# Joyful 2013-03-21 05:10
Awesome episode, just SPECTACULAR!! Can't wait to watch again... and again... and AGAIN!!! It was that good. :lol: :lol:
ryder21
# ryder21 2013-03-21 06:18
OMG, just watched this episode....WOW! !!! Must watch again...Now.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-03-21 06:40
Awesome speculation Aerdospina! Love your take on Sam's damage - his body expelling the demon blood to purify him. It would be awesome if the end result is Sam gets to be fully human again - I think that is the baseline 'normal' he has REALLY been looking for his whole life.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 09:51
Quote:
Awesome speculation Aerdospina! Love your take on Sam's damage - his body expelling the demon blood to purify him. It would be awesome if the end result is Sam gets to be fully human again - I think that is the baseline 'normal' he has REALLY been looking for his whole life.
That's a really interesting take on the whole demon blood thing, purifying him for the trials; they really haven't addressed the demon blood thing that since Sam came back from hell, have they?
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-21 07:09
So people are rooting for the one shiny angel to get on with the one shiny demon (never mind about the girl its possessing...sh e apparently doesn't matter as long as Cas is happy)/

The demon gets to dump on Sam. And everyone has special relationships with others while Sam still doesn't have one person he can truely talk to....doesn't have a friend and his
"brother" sees him as nothing more then something to fix.

Om so tied of Sam being so isolated. So the writers hate him that much that he can't have ONE relationship with another person? Conforming SAm to whatever Dean thinks he should be/is is not a relationship.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-21 09:31
Quote:
So people are rooting for the one shiny angel to get on with the one shiny demon (never mind about the girl its possessing...she apparently doesn't matter as long as Cas is happy)/

The demon gets to dump on Sam. And everyone has special relationships with others while Sam still doesn't have one person he can truely talk to....doesn't have a friend and his
"brother" sees him as nothing more then something to fix.

Om so tied of Sam being so isolated. So the writers hate him that much that he can't have ONE relationship with another person? Conforming SAm to whatever Dean thinks he should be/is is not a relationship.
I'm with you. Sam is a support character in the show. He is no longer one of the leads as he becomes whatever the writers want to support who Dean is. Every one of the characters in the show except Sam gets to have a pov. Sad.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 09:37
I agree with this as well. Robbie Thompson tweetedQuote:
And for the record, to me, Samwise Gamgee is the main character of LOTR

So I think Sam is now officially a far less important character.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-21 10:36
Quote:
I agree with this as well. Robbie Thompson tweetedQuote:
And for the record, to me, Samwise Gamgee is the main character of LOTR

So I think Sam is now officially a far less important character.
Robbie Thompson doesn't get to retcon LOTR unless he writes a new screen adaptation for it. Samwise Gamgee is a secondary charater. In having Dean identify with him - he has the character admit to and acknowledge his secondary, supporting role.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-21 11:07
Quote:
Quote:
I agree with this as well. Robbie Thompson tweetedQuote:
And for the record, to me, Samwise Gamgee is the main character of LOTR

So I think Sam is now officially a far less important character.
Robbie Thompson doesn't get to retcon LOTR unless he writes a new screen adaptation for it. Samwise Gamgee is a secondary charater. In having Dean identify with him - he has the character admit to and acknowledge his secondary, supporting role.
With respect I have to disagree as a massive fan of the LOTR's I never considered Samwise as secondary and neither do I believe Tolkien saw him as one. In many ways the journey with Frodo was as much his story as the ring was Frodo's. Samwise was the beating heart of that story in much the same way as Dean is seen as the 'heart' of SPN.

Sam can be given all the mytharcs and trials in the world but it will be Dean that will get the heart of the story and storytelling.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-21 11:20
Nice to meet a fellow Ringer.
Take me out of the question - google Samwise Gamgee, or better yet google archetype loyal sidekick.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 14:10
Quote:

Disagree as a massive fan of the LOTR's I never considered Samwisae as secondary and neither do I believe Tolkien saw him as one. In many ways the journey with Frodo was as much his story as the ring was Frodo's. Samwise was the beating heart of that story in much the same way as Dean is seen as the 'heart' of SPN.

Sam can be given all the mytharcs and trials in the world but it will be Dean that will get the heart of the story and storytelling.
I agree that in many ways Samwise is the main character in LOTR. I've been in discussion groups where the point was made that we barely know Frodo because once he gets the ring, it so wears him down and overshadows his personality that Frodo, as he really was, is gone. And he doesn't really come back after everything because it took so much out of him. Most readers I have talked to love Samwise and are so-so about Frodo.

However, for this argument, it doesn't matter. I quoted Robby Thompson and HE thinks that Samwise is the main character of LOTR and that is what HE and possibly the other writers are bringing to Supernatural. It doesn't matter if he is rewriting LOTR, because he's writing Supernatural not LOTR and in his Supernatural Dean matters and Sam, not so much because Dean is the hero, and Sam is not period.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 17:37
Percysowner, much as it's nice to see parallels drawn between two of my favourite fictional worlds and heroic partnerships, it would be very disappointing if that's how the SPN writers envisioned the Sam and Dean relationship and their roles in the mytharc.

I've always seen Sam and Dean as both being essential to every mytharc because they both bring different skills and personality elements to bear on solving problems. I feel the same way about Sam and Frodo. The Ring Quest took both of the Hobbits to complete and needed the skills and abilities of both of them to ensure that the Ring ended up in the fires of Mount Doom. At the risk of sounding like Sesame Street: teamwork is what gets things done (in both LOTR and SPN) :lol:

Sam needs Dean (and Frodo needs Samwise) and visa versa. Sam and Frodo are born to complete a painful destiny and to suffer terribly while doing so but Dean and Samwise are their strength, their protector, and the provider of the vital love and centring for when the quest becomes too harsh and causes Sam (and Frodo) to lose themselves. I think Mr Thompson and I have rather differing views on the subtext and characterisatio n in LOTR (and SPN).
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-22 09:36
quote]Sam can be given all the mytharcs and trials in the world but it will be Dean that will get the heart of the story and storytelling.

This quote is exactly my problem with SPN. Why is Dean only the POV character on a two-lead show? Sam should have just as much POV and why can't Dean have a mytharc? As long as they do it the same way as they have in the past with the POV charcter not the one with the mytharc it would be great.
This is what IMO is the biggest problem of both the Sam and Dean fans. It's too one-sided.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 07:18
Folks, can someone explain to me what Dean means by the phrase "Rudy Hobbit"? I'm not American, so that cultural meme went right over my head. Other than knowing that Dean is referring to the wonderful Sam Gamgee from the Lord of the Rings I'm not sure why Dean's using that name to refer to Sam the Hobbit? Ta, muchly :-)

*edited post to make it clear I was referring to Sam the Hobbit and not Sam the Moose* :lol:
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 07:32
Quote:
Folks, can someone explain to me what Dean means by the phrase "Rudy Hobbit"? I'm not American, so that cultural meme went right over my head. Other than knowing that Dean is referring to the wonderful Sam Gamgee from the Lord of the Rings I'm not sure why Dean's using that name to refer to Sam the Hobbit? Ta, muchly :-)

*edited post to make it clear I was referring to Sam the Hobbit and not Sam the Moose* :lol:
I think it's a reference to Sean Astin, who was in the Lord of the Rings movies and also played the title character in a 1990's movie "Rudy" ; it was about someone who was told they were too small to play college football and fulfilled his dream by playing for Notre Dame.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 08:40
Thanks njspnfan :-) Normally, I can get most of the American pop culture references in Supernatural but in this season I'm struggling with them as they seem a bit more obscure than usual.
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-03-21 07:40
Loved it! Amazing!!! Loved this review. So happy. Oh and Rudy Hobbit is definitely a reference to the wonderful movie "Rudy" with Sean Astin as Rudy (who played the hobbit Sam Gamgee who Dean was "quoting" :). (Everything is feeling very wonderful to me today. )
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-03-21 07:49
I'll have to re-watch to catch everything, but I liked the episode and thought the script was tight and well-paced.

Dead Dean's everywhere! Loved and was shocked by the opening scene. The show always does well with cold opening scenes.

Everyone was on their game tonight, but I have to say that JA rocks it every time he is given some meat to work with. The Dean/Cas crypt scenes were excellent. I liked the Sam/Meg Samelia talk, too, but that whole story was so boring and lame, their scenes didn't have the same emotional punch.

Did not like the Meg/Cas pizza talk. I just can't get past the fact that angels are 'junkless', as Dean would say and I'm not thrilled with turning the awesomely bad and treacherous Meg from the early seasons into a sympathetic demon. I'm glad Meg is dead, and I thought the send-off was well done and fitting for a long term character on the show. I've been kind of turned off Meg for a while now, as I thought the character was getting really stale, but she wasn't in this episode, and I enjoyed her.

I only had a few quibbles with this episode -- the Meg/Cas hookup being the biggest one. Either Crowley is 400 years old and the Bobby, Crowley's son, and Bobby getting out of his deal episode happened, or Crowley's now thousands of years old and that wasn't an important episode at all? Another example of the writer's not bothering to watch previous episodes? Whatever, Show.

During the Cas beat-down of Dean; I, too, kept screaming in my head for Dean to just put the danged tablet back in the box. While the scene was exciting, and I loved the back and forth from Cas/Naomi to Cas/Dean, that kind of distraction should never be written in a script. Still, I loved the scene and thought it was done much better than the Swan Song scene, because it was made quite clear that Cas didn't kill Dean because he loves Dean (as a friend, is all I'm saying).

To me, this scene clearly showed that humanity's capacity of love trumps all (or, in Kripke terms, the love of family conquers everything)-- and I think that's what Swan Song was going for and failed miserably at.

I was leery of Robbie Thompson and his tendency to write episodes for support characters, but I thought he did an all-around good job with this one.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 09:06
Quote:
Either Crowley is 400 years old and the Bobby, Crowley's son, and Bobby getting out of his deal episode happened, or Crowley's now thousands of years old and that wasn't an important episode at all? Another example of the writer's not bothering to watch previous episodes? Whatever, Show.
I don't think Crowley not being Fergus is that big a deal. Whatever or whoever Crowley is, he was playing at being a normal, run of the mill demon who was working his way up to take over Hell. We know he gave Bobby more in his deal than Bobby asked for an unusual act for a Crossroads demon. If he wasn't Fergus turned Crowley but is in fact something else, he may not have wanted Bobby's soul all that much, so the excuse of the boys having "his" bones was a good excuse to break Bobby's deal without breaking whatever game he is playing, be it undercover agent of heaven or really old demon from way back.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-03-21 16:12
Quote:


I don't think Crowley not being Fergus is that big a deal. Whatever or whoever Crowley is, he was playing at being a normal, run of the mill demon who was working his way up to take over Hell. We know he gave Bobby more in his deal than Bobby asked for an unusual act for a Crossroads demon. If he wasn't Fergus turned Crowley but is in fact something else, he may not have wanted Bobby's soul all that much, so the excuse of the boys having "his" bones was a good excuse to break Bobby's deal without breaking whatever game he is playing, be it undercover agent of heaven or really old demon from way back.
That's how I took it too...more like, the Fergus thing was a cover way back when, so the bones was part of that. Just like the crossroads demon thing might be a cover, or even the demon thing. In order to survive, Crowley may have been many people since his daliance in Mesopotamia, Fergus just being one of them. It made him even more interesting to me...I always thought the Ferugs thing was too small for that character. I feel like we're getting closer to seeing what Crowley really is...or as you say Percy, how old he really is.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-22 12:42
Quote:
Quote:


I don't think Crowley not being Fergus is that big a deal. Whatever or whoever Crowley is, he was playing at being a normal, run of the mill demon who was working his way up to take over Hell. We know he gave Bobby more in his deal than Bobby asked for an unusual act for a Crossroads demon. If he wasn't Fergus turned Crowley but is in fact something else, he may not have wanted Bobby's soul all that much, so the excuse of the boys having "his" bones was a good excuse to break Bobby's deal without breaking whatever game he is playing, be it undercover agent of heaven or really old demon from way back.
That's how I took it too...more like, the Fergus thing was a cover way back when, so the bones was part of that. Just like the crossroads demon thing might be a cover, or even the demon thing. In order to survive, Crowley may have been many people since his daliance in Mesopotamia, Fergus just being one of them. It made him even more interesting to me...I always thought the Ferugs thing was too small for that character. I feel like we're getting closer to seeing what Crowley really is...or as you say Percy, how old he really is.
Based on Crowley's conversation with Meg about Pumba and Timon (Sam and Dean) trying to kill them all by closing the gates of hell, I do think he's a demon; the question is what kind of demon? In As Time Goes By, they introduced Abbadon, one of the first demons created by Lucifer, one of the Knights of Hell. Now sometimes they do this as a RETCON, other times they do this for a reason.

The Archangels were supposed to have tracked all of them down and killed them. Abbadon slipped thru the cracks; maybe Crowley did as well by going deep undercover, waiting for the right opportunity? Given that Gabriel was able to hide his identify as The Trickster/Loki, I'm thinking Crowley, as one of the Knights of Hell,, would be able to do the same. That could also explain how Naomi knows him...
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 15:11
Njspnfan, hmmmmm, Crowley as Knight of Hell who's been living under deep cover to escape Archangels sounds intriguing. I'm bad at guessing or speculating as to future plotlines, so I haven't a clue as to what the writers think Crowley could be but I do hope the writers have something rich and interesting planned for him in terms of plot (and backstory). Crowley's an interesting character who's been fleshed out quite well over the years so I hope they'll do something cool with him.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 20:45
sweetondean, this is a great theory! Brilliant!

Oops, sorry I guess that was njspnfan.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-03-21 09:30
Quote:
Still, I loved the scene and thought it was done much better than the Swan Song scene, because it was made quite clear that Cas didn't kill Dean because he loves Dean (as a friend, is all I'm saying).

To me, this scene clearly showed that humanity's capacity of love trumps all (or, in Kripke terms, the love of family conquers everything)-- and I think that's what Swan Song was going for and failed miserably at.
What exactly did you think was unclear about the scene in Swan Song? Sam overcame THE DEVIL, not an annoying voice in his head, in order to save Dean. His love for Dean gave him the strength to do it. That scene perfectly encapsulated every part of Kripke's vision; the importance and strength of the brothers relationship, the importance of free will, etc. There wasn't the tiniest hint of ambiguity in the SS scene. What other possible reason could anyone imagine was behind Sam taking back control of his body other than his love for Dean?

I was actually irritated by the poor mans copy of that scene in this ep. I think it pales hugely in comparison, and does a disservice to that SS scene by trying to imply that what Cas did, and his relationship with Dean are on the same planet as what Sam did in SS and the bond between Dean and Sam.

This was the only bum note in an excellent ep IMO.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-21 10:09
I totally agree with you on Swan Song. It was perfect and beautiful.

Although the Dean/Cas scene was clearly meant to remind us of SS (I believe even Dean's bruises where similar), I wasn't bothered by it. Sam was the most beautiful example of how love and family can beat anything. He beat Lucifer, for Chuck's sake! But it wasn't the first time something like it happened. John overcame Azazel while he was killing Dean. Bobby also overcame a demon and stabbed himself also to save Dean. And his revenge ghost impulse thing for Sam. I believe Cas earned something like this, like real family status. He is Team Free Will after all, and was on SS willing to die with the boys (and did die).
st50
# st50 2013-03-21 10:43
Quote:

This was the only bum note in an excellent ep IMO.
Exactly how I felt about it, Geordiegirl1967.
SO many things they got right with this episode.

The brother moments all through the ep.

MEG! Loved her snarkiness. Great lines! Loved her moments with Cas, and FINALLY someone for Sam to talk to (even if we didn't really get to hear what he said, or the fact that it was a really weird moment for a sharing-and-car ing time)

Some great stuff between Cas and Naomi and Naomi and Crowley.
I love Crowley in smaller doses...

AWESOME send off for Meg. She's changed so much from the evil b***h from S1 to the monster with a heart in S8. Dying to help save her unicorn. Fabulous. I hope they don't bring her back again. (Bobby's turn as a ghost cheapened his death, imo. I hope they don't do that with Meg. People and demons die. Let them have a great death and move on!)

I'm a LOTR geek, so the Rudy-Hobbit lines were just excellent.

BUT the entire scene in the crypt between Cas and Dean pulled me right out of the episode. And pissed me off.
They should NEVER EVER try to replicate or tease back to what happened in Swan Song. That episode is the capstone to the entire show - the brother bond that saves the world. There is no copying, no repeating, no shadowing. I was furious after that scene, and it really hurt my enjoyment of an otherwise fantastic episode.

I've calmed down somewhat today, and I'll re-watch this one for some great stuff. Including the hints regarding Sam hitting the dog (yes, I'm still waiting for something!) and the 'what is up with Crowley and Mesopotamia' stuff.
I just wish they'd done that one scene differently. *Sigh*
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 10:56
It would be nice if asking why Sam stopped for the dog meant something, but I thought it was just a way of showing that Meg is still a demon at heart. Most people would stop if they hit a dog. It's the most understandable part of Sam's story. But Meg can't relate to that emotion. For her it's why on earth would anyone stop after hitting a dog. So I still don't think that we are getting anything more on Sam.
st50
# st50 2013-03-21 11:02
Sadly, I agree we won't be getting anything more.
A bit of fan service, perhaps. "We hear you". Nothing more.
ETA: Doesn't stop me from hoping, though.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 13:12
st50,

I kind of took it as a tongue-in-cheek nod to the fans as well.

[Meg]: "Wait, wait, hold on - there's one part I don't understand...yo u hit a dog and stopped, why?"

[Sam, incredulous]: "That whole story, and that's your takeaway?"

As if saying to the fans - 'that's all you got out of that?'

Makes me chuckle. :)

Although, I still hold out that we could be in for a surprise, do to future spoilers. You just never know.
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-03-21 14:43
st50,

I kind of took it as a tongue-in-cheek nod to the fans as well.

[Meg]: "Wait, wait, hold on - there's one part I don't understand...yo u hit a dog and stopped, why?"

[Sam, incredulous]: "That whole story, and that's your takeaway?"

As if saying to the fans - 'that's all you got out of that?'

Makes me chuckle. :)

Although, I still hold out that we could be in for a surprise, do to future spoilers. You just never know.

I know that's all I got out of the whole story, and I agree that we're not going to get anything else about it. I'm glad in this episode that Sam told the story off-screen. I certainly didn't want to hear all about it again.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-21 14:51
st50,

I kind of took it as a tongue-in-cheek nod to the fans as well.

[Meg]: "Wait, wait, hold on - there's one part I don't understand...yo u hit a dog and stopped, why?"

[Sam, incredulous]: "That whole story, and that's your takeaway?"

As if saying to the fans - 'that's all you got out of that?'

Makes me chuckle. :)

Although, I still hold out that we could be in for a surprise, do to future spoilers. You just never know.

I know that's all I got out of the whole story, and I agree that we're not going to get anything else about it. I'm glad in this episode that Sam told the story off-screen. I certainly didn't want to hear all about it again.

I would personally like to of seen it on screen as we have many times with Dean hearing his version of something. As something that clearly affected some of the fans view of him then yes I would of liked to of seen Sam talk about something that isnt predictably off screen. But I come from a different place than others.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 11:27
We're never going to get anymore re: Sam, esp. about what he did right after Dean died. That's just not important to this writing team though it has forever tainted Sam and the brother bond.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 11:51
Hi st50, I have to agree with you about the crypt scene. It didn't piss me off exactly :-) but it was such an exact duplication of the iconic SS scene, right down to Dean's battered face (the makeup) that it took me out of the moment. I usually like shout-outs but I wish they had put a little different spin on it. Still a stellar episode though!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 13:26
I didn't see it as an exact duplication of the iconic S5 scene. Nothing could top or mimic that moment, because Sam - a mere human - overcame the most powerful supernatural being they knew of, and he willingly jumped into the Pit of Hell. The courage and fortitude it would take for a mere human to do that is unthinkable. That's why nothing can take away from that heroic moment for me.

However I understand where some see it as a 'nod' to that moment - it was Cas's personal crucible, similar to Sam's triumph over the Devil only in the fact that he overcame powerful mind control with the love of family. But it wasn't quite a 'heroic' thing. This was just Cas finally choosing to do the right thing. Here, he wasn't choosing to save the world or destroy himself for another - he was just choosing to sides. After everything he's done, Cas had to choose once and for all to whom he was going to be loyal. Naomi, or the Winchesters. Heaven, or humanity. Duty, or family. And he chose the Winchesters. He chose humanity. He chose family.

To me it was very significant considering there were several times last season I felt his character had no other recourse than to be killed off. Cas had fallen out of my good graces. Honestly, I had expected him to go out like Meg did this season. But with this choice, with this victory, he's proven himself [to me] once again, and I feel like I am ready for Cas as a regular in S9.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 14:30
Probably not an exact moment, Bamboo, but close enough that it completely yanked me back to that moment. Add to that the fact that it was ultimately was about "family". I think it was Dean's demeanor and the facial make up that threw me, not that the scene was identical in content. I loved this episode, so this is a minor quibble for me. The nod was a little too spot- on in some respects. I loved the outcome, as I was worried that Cas was going to stay "dark". I am so glad he chose the Winchesters. :-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 11:23
Some people will never believe Sam's love for Dean stopped Lucifer. Heck, those people don't really believe Sam loves Dean. I wouldn't spend much time arguing the point.

As you said, there was nothing ambiguous - in MY opinion - about the SS scene. It was clear that Sam was able to break through Lucifer's hold on him b/c of his love for Dean. Yes, Sam saw the toy BUT the toy triggered the memories of Dean and his love for his brother. It's not like the toy triggered memories of Sam's love for that toy!

But those who don't care for Sam and don't believe in Sam's love for his brother or the bond btw the brothers will NEVER change their opinions on this, which is fine.

Miles vary as they say.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 11:40
Sad but true lala. "It's not like the toy triggered memories of Sam's love for that toy!" :lol: I have absolutely no ambiguity for that scene (in SS) either.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 13:58
It is sad, but that's just how some will see it. Sam will never be good enough for Dean.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 14:19
I see no ambiguity either. It ended up being the power on love that saved the world, just like Dean so snarkily said in PoNR.
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-21 14:26
Wow it never for one second occurred to me that there was anything to question in that scene in Swan Song. Of course it's love conquers all. What else could it possibly be?

Seriously, I can't see how you could have any other interpretation ...
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-03-21 14:41
There's no reason to rehash Swan Song. I hated the episode, but it's long gone and over with. I did like the scene here. I thought it was some powerful acting by both JA and Misha and the message got across without the need for toy soldiers and sunbeams.

I do think the relationship with Cas is on the same level as Sam's. Dean's called Cas his brother multiple times. Bobby became John, so I don't have a problem with Cas becoming a brother. I like him better than Adam, that's for sure.

I also am not too thrilled with Cas being a regular next season, unless he is used sparingly like he has been this year. I just hope that Dean doesn't become the wind under Cas's wings in the angel tablet storyline next season. Dean being officially canonized as "Samwise" this episode has me a little worried about that.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-03-22 21:45
Quote:

I do think the relationship with Cas is on the same level as Sam's. Dean's called Cas his brother multiple times. Bobby became John, so I don't have a problem with Cas becoming a brother.
In NO WAY is the Dean/Cas relationship anywhere near on the same level as Dean/Sam. Dean has NOT called Cas 'brother' multiple times. I believe he said it once as part of his efforts to bring Cas back from the brink towards the end of s6. It didn't ring true then and it doesn't now. "Family" in the broadest sense ie as part of their very small group of trusted friends in the fight against evil - maybe. Family like Sam is family? Never in a million years.

When Cas apparently died in the reservoir at the start of s7 Dean looked a bit sad. When Sam died in AHBL Dean fell apart completely and sold his soul to the devil to bring him back.

When Cas apparently died at the end of s4 Dean shrugged. When he found out Sam's soul was still trapped in the cage he killed himself and made a deal with Death to get him back.

Sorry but the 2 relationships simply cannot be compared IMO.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-23 09:39
Quote:
Quote:

I do think the relationship with Cas is on the same level as Sam's. Dean's called Cas his brother multiple times. Bobby became John, so I don't have a problem with Cas becoming a brother.
In NO WAY is the Dean/Cas relationship anywhere near on the same level as Dean/Sam. Dean has NOT called Cas 'brother' multiple times. I believe he said it once as part of his efforts to bring Cas back from the brink towards the end of s6. It didn't ring true then and it doesn't now. "Family" in the broadest sense ie as part of their very small group of trusted friends in the fight against evil - maybe. Family like Sam is family? Never in a million years.

When Cas apparently died in the reservoir at the start of s7 Dean looked a bit sad. When Sam died in AHBL Dean fell apart completely and sold his soul to the devil to bring him back.

When Cas apparently died at the end of s4 Dean shrugged. When he found out Sam's soul was still trapped in the cage he killed himself and made a deal with Death to get him back.

Sorry but the 2 relationships simply cannot be compared IMO.
Personally I think the writers are doing everything in their power to elevate Cas above SAm. Hell if SARA, who professed to love Sam had Dean carry a moldy, bloody trenchcoat from stolen car to stolen car for almost a year before returning it...the same writer.showrunn er who had Dean maliciously throw away the amulet.

And now we have Carver and Edlund who have gone on record as preferring and cheerleading the Dean and Cas relationship... what did THEY Do? They coimmited the charector destroying act of having Sam not look for Dean. And then have Dean verbally attack Sam for ten episodes. AND then have Dean tell Sam Benny was a better brother then Sam has EVEAR been in his life.

You know I wouldn't care if only the writers would give SAm his own good friends (see I didn't ask for profound orbest) or someone he sees as a brother (I"m not asking for a BETTER brother...thoug h anyone not declaring Sam s very act of sneezing a betrayal is certainbly better).

Why can't Sam have hios own friend/brother. Then Carver could indulge in his Dean/Cas/Benny fantasies while Sam is with HIS best friend, having adventures and not being told on a regular basis he is betraying his brother and he is a frack up.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-03-21 16:25
Quote:
This was the only bum note in an excellent ep IMO.
Here's a weird thing... Swan Song is my favourite season finale - and is my favourite episode along with Faith (I back and forth).

I think Swan Song is perfect. A perfect realisation of Kripke's original vision and a perfect representation of what the depth of love these brothers have for each other can achieve. Their love saved the world, through Dean's not leaving Sam and through Sam's powerful love for Dean enabling him to conquer the devil.

And yet, until I saw people talking about the Cass/Dean scene as being similar - it never even entered my head - because, though it had it's own kind of power, it had not a jot of the emotional power of the original scene...for me anyway.

Because for me, Cass beating on Dean and Sam(ifer) beating on Dean are two very, very different things.

So, it didn't and still doesn't bother me because it doesn't feel like that scene at all, so I simply can't see it like that.

It was a very well done scene though - Misha and Jensen knocked it out of the park.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 22:06
Quote:
Quote:
This was the only bum note in an excellent ep IMO.
Here's a weird thing... Swan Song is my favourite season finale - and is my favourite episode along with Faith (I back and forth).

I think Swan Song is perfect. A perfect realisation of Kripke's original vision and a perfect representation of what the depth of love these brothers have for each other can achieve. Their love saved the world, through Dean's not leaving Sam and through Sam's powerful love for Dean enabling him to conquer the devil.

And yet, until I saw people talking about the Cass/Dean scene as being similar - it never even entered my head - because, though it had it's own kind of power, it had not a jot of the emotional power of the original scene...for me anyway.
Swan Song is one of my all time favorite episodes and definitely my favorite season finale. I thought it was perfect honestly. I was a little bothered by the parallel BECAUSE I love that scene so much, but you're right even though Jensen and Misha knocked it out of the park it doesn't come close to matching the emotional impact of the SS scene.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 17:53
Quote:
Quote:
Still, I loved the scene and thought it was done much better than the Swan Song scene, because it was made quite clear that Cas didn't kill Dean because he loves Dean (as a friend, is all I'm saying).

To me, this scene clearly showed that humanity's capacity of love trumps all (or, in Kripke terms, the love of family conquers everything)-- and I think that's what Swan Song was going for and failed miserably at.
What exactly did you think was unclear about the scene in Swan Song? Sam overcame THE DEVIL, not an annoying voice in his head, in order to save Dean. His love for Dean gave him the strength to do it. That scene perfectly encapsulated every part of Kripke's vision; the importance and strength of the brothers relationship, the importance of free will, etc. There wasn't the tiniest hint of ambiguity in the SS scene. What other possible reason could anyone imagine was behind Sam taking back control of his body other than his love for Dean?

I was actually irritated by the poor mans copy of that scene in this ep. I think it pales hugely in comparison, and does a disservice to that SS scene by trying to imply that what Cas did, and his relationship with Dean are on the same planet as what Sam did in SS and the bond between Dean and Sam.

This was the only bum note in an excellent ep IMO.
Same here, Geordiegirl, I agree. I felt that Dean calling Castiel family was OTT and it didn't work for me, it felt forced. I generally feel that the writers keep shoehorning Castiel in where he doesn't necessarily belong. I'm not saying he can't have a good relationship with either Sam or Dean but I don't think he can be considered family. And given that Castiel doesn't have human emotions I fail to see how he can suddenly develop overpowering love for Dean that will overcome all the CIAngel conditioning that Naomi has been putting him through.

I feel that the writers are trying to force Castiel's character into a new direction but they haven't put in the ground work to develop the character in such a way as the new direction is believable.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-22 07:29
They've been trying to sell the whole "Cas is like family" story since Season 5. I like Cas but never thought he should have been elevated to family. Can't they (Dean and Cas) just be really good friends?
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-22 07:44
Quote:
They've been trying to sell the whole "Cas is like family" story since Season 5. I like Cas but never thought he should have been elevated to family. Can't they (Dean and Cas) just be really good friends?
Apparently not they had to elevate him to something more and it seems they are doing the same with Benny.

My issue with it is they seem to compromise Sam to do it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-22 13:43
My issue is that in both cases I feel like Cas and Benny are "family" to Dean, but not to Sam. I have always been skeptical of Cas's friendship with Sam. I have never seen him as relating to Sam as an individual as opposed to an appendage to Dean. Benny has only met Sam for 5 minutes and in CF, Dean made it clear that Sam would kill Benny, so Benny is in no, way, shape or form family to Sam. But the show is clear that being DEAN'S family is all that counts.

Why can't any of the non-blood family come through Sam? Heck why were the blood family, the Campbells who did come in through Sam, declared by Dean to be not family, even innocent Gwen? It bothers me that family is totally defined by how Dean feels about them. I may not have found Amelia compelling as a character, but if Dean is going to be asking Sam "is that the Benny you know?" and acting as if Sam is family, then the woman Sam loved for whatever reason, should get included in Dean's family as well. But, sadly, the show only cares about the people Dean cares about, Sam's family, Sam's friends are dispensable.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-23 22:24
i guess i'm not really that worried about cas as a regular or it being all about dean and cas while sam gets sidelined. it didn't happen the first time cas was a regular and i don't believe it'll happen here.

in all honesty i see cas and dean not so much as family but i do see dean as cas' charge. he saved him from hell. i feel that cas has always felt responsible for dean. while it's true that a friendship has formed, i don't believe that cas will ever truly understand the concept of family.

dean seems to hold the few friends he has very closely. my guess is that he holds onto them because of all his loss. bobby and now cas. dean has admitted that bobby was like a father to him, replacing the one he lost. sam always referred to bobby as "uncle" bobby and never felt the need to replace his own father.

sam, when he was in college made friends. he seemed to have made quite a few but he didn't obsess about his friends...they weren't his family. dean and his father was his family. the closest thing to family for sam was jess.

dean seems to lack the ability to trust in people. it took awhile to trust in cas. once dean gives that trust, it seems he relates that to family. dean has been programmed into believing the only people he can trust is family.....if dean finds himself trusting cas, then he most likely considers him family...dean only trusts in his family after all.

as for the whole swan song scene as it's being called, i didn't think that at all. the way i saw it ....dean said what he said to cas so cas wouldn't kill him. . dean didn't want to die, least of all by someone he considered his friend. and the reason dean didnt want to die....knowing dean like i do, was because of sam. he didn't want to leave sam all alone, as sick as he is, to face the trials on his own...hell he even said so at the end...that he would be there to carry him. as i see it, this scene was all about dean's survival.

in swan song dean went to sam because he loved him. if sam was going to die, dean was going to be right by his side. dean didn't care whether he lived or died, he just wanted to be there for his brother at the end...so what dean said to sam wasn't about his need to survive. what dean said to sam was all about love. dean never actually said the words i love you to sam.....but if swan song didn't say i love you sam without actually saying the exact words, than i don't know what would. swan song was about brotherly love, plain and simple.

i think there was trust in cas in the beginning, but cas blew it big time with dean and as we all know dean doesn't easily forget. the relationship between cas and dean will never be the same again. dean will never really hundred percent forgive cas for what he did to his brother.

cas has been a pretty unstable character. he's good, he's bad, he's crazy, he's good/bad? dean and sam don't trust cas. that is quite obvious. and cas doesn't trust dean as he admitted that he had to keep the tablet from him. and cas yet again went off on his own.

from the way the eppy ended, the way i perceived it....sam and dean are once again on their own and cas is off with his own angelic agenda. not only that but both sam and dean made it perfectly clear that they do not trust cas and arent even sure if cas is friend or foe at this point.

the feel i got when the show ended, the boys and cas are more likely to be at odds next season, or at the very least ea. busy with their own problems.

and the whole sam with meg and cas with dean thing, it didn't bother me. i totally understood the point of it.

meg was the only person who showed an interest in sam's year. but more important, she raised the question to sam....you hit a dog and stopped, why? now as i've stated, i interpreted that scene as meg saying....why did you hit a dog in the first place? i found it significant that out of everything sam said, that's what made her go hmmm. and i thought it significant that she referred to amelia as a unicorn. a unicorn is a fabled creature. it's not real. there's no such thing. as though sam and amelia weren't real...it was a fantasy....just like cas is her unicorn...a fantasy..someth ing that isn't real and wouldn't happen. after watching and rewatching that scene, i'm totally convinced that meg/sam conversation was yet another clue that all with sam isn't as it seems. i found it quite convenient that meg didn't get to answer sam's question because demons showed up and even more convenient that the conversation could never be revisited since meg is now dead...another happy coincidence in a string of them this season. i didnt' feel that sam was being sidelined, i felt that we were being given another hint that there's more to sam's story.


basically i think misha will have regular status because both boys have kids now and they'll need more of a supporting cast to give them time off. i think misha will have more contact with other angels next season than he will sam and dean. i think sam and dean will still be busy with the trials and the demon tablet.

as for sam admitting to meg that he still longed to be normal, that he liked it, that doesn't mean he wants to be with amelia and not his brother. as a matter of fact, when sam learned he is a legacy to the man of letters i noticed a contentment in sam that he's never had before. he finally can have his cake and eat it too. he can be part of the hunting world with his brother, doing what he loves to do, research and still be able to possibly have a family some day. and he wouldn't have a family with amelia, as he was never in love with her and it was simply a misery loves company based relationship... ...but amelia did allow sam to do normal things and that did give him happy moments...momen ts that i'm sure he'd like to one day be able to do again...with someone sam does eventually truly love and that someone who loves and accepts sam for who he is....a hunter/mol.

and that's all i got to say about that. ;-)
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-03-24 10:38
nappi-THANK YOU AGAIN and bowing down! I'll say now that your comments are my only positive beacon right now after reading and hearing about the last episode!

I just renewed my hope and love for SPN and that this show is about 2 brothers and THEIR bond that is the specialness with episodes 12-16! The last episode (17) told differently from the comments and reviews I have seen.

I hear that Dean leaves Sam outside from the crypt with a demon after he found out about Sam's condition. I hear that Casstiel and Dean get their special Swan Song scene, I would gouge my eyes out to not have to watch it. It is also for me a sacrileg, a violation of the beautiful and heartbreaking S5 Finale. This is a forced establishment of the Dean/Casstiel relationship because he comes back as regular in S9, the whole scene leaving Sam out! Sam in the meantime get to tell about "normal" and we find out that this is what he wants and likes, this is what Meg captured of him while the poor guy was possessed by her and she forced to kill with Sam's body people. In that time where she possessed Sam he was in real desperation because he knew already something was up where he is involved, he might turn. He tried desperately to do something good, clinged on saving people and beibg alsmot depressive! And now we hearabout Sam wanted normal. Blah!Blech!

I have saved your comment about who Sam is, and how he loves his brother and how he is inherent good! I telling myself that I will watch the last episodes of this season, I am not to much positively right now with S9. I need the SAM POV like a lifeline to continue the series now. I had so much positive feelings about Jeremy Carver taking over I even can't describe how much this changed. Only the last couple of episodes save this season for me (almost) I still miss something important regarding Sam's time after Dean vanished. My feelings right now are that tptb only gave us brother fans the last episodes because we complained to much and now that showrunner canceled the issues (washed over the issues he himself created) for the sake of drama.

I pray (almost lol) that you are RIGHT and RIGHT and Right about your perpective! I will watch the last handful episodes with your words about Sam in my mind, reading it and drinking it like its medicine (sorry for my wording, this happens when I try to write down my feelings regarding SPN, my emotional side comes up and my words in emglish are not adequate enough)

Looking further always forward to your comments even when I am again in pull back position!
E
# E 2013-03-24 10:50
nappi, great post! I couldn't agree with you more, particularly on the idea that there is more going on with Sam than meets the eye. I have felt that all along, and I will continue to hold out hope to the end of the season and beyond into season 9. Having Sam confide in Meg is genius really; it allowed Sam finally to give the audience some insight into his year (a little anyway) yet the information had no way to get back to Dean or anyone else because Meg was killed off shortly after he confided in her. I also wondered if Meg knew something. It seemed to me that she had made a connection or had an "ah ha" moment that she was just about to reveal when Crowley showed up. Do you think it was significant that Sam and Meg were discussing the dog (Riot) that he hit just as Crowley comes up and just about the first thing out of his mouth was the comment about "his dog" which presumably meant the hellhound. Did any one else find the connecting bits of dialog about dogs meaningful? Has Crowley ever referred to his hellhounds as dogs before? How do we know that Riot wasn't Crowley's dog? Sorry, off on a tangent there.

Anyway, loved your post nappy, and I totally agree with your take on things. :P
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 14:53
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as for the whole swan song scene as it's being called, i didn't think that at all. the way i saw it ....dean said what he said to cas so cas wouldn't kill him. . dean didn't want to die, least of all by someone he considered his friend. and the reason dean didnt want to die....knowing dean like i do, was because of sam. he didn't want to leave sam all alone, as sick as he is, to face the trials on his own...hell he even said so at the end...that he would be there to carry him. as i see it, this scene was all about dean's survival.

in swan song dean went to sam because he loved him. if sam was going to die, dean was going to be right by his side. dean didn't care whether he lived or died, he just wanted to be there for his brother at the end...so what dean said to sam wasn't about his need to survive. what dean said to sam was all about love. dean never actually said the words i love you to sam.....but if swan song didn't say i love you sam without actually saying the exact words, than i don't know what would. swan song was about brotherly love, plain and simple.
Loved your post, nappi! You hit the nail on the head. For me, one of the biggest difference between this scene and SS is the only reason Dean was at the field was because he loved Sam and needed to be there. That's it. He had no hope of surviving. Didn't even want to survive. And I think the only reason he did go on after is because Sam told him to and that smidgeon of hope that he could find a way to save Sam, despite his promise.

And I think you're absolutely right, one of the main reasons he did want to survive is because he needs to be there for Sam.
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and i thought it significant that she referred to amelia as a unicorn. a unicorn is a fabled creature. it's not real. there's no such thing. as though sam and amelia weren't real...it was a fantasy....just like cas is her unicorn...a fantasy..something that isn't real and wouldn't happen. after watching and rewatching that scene, i'm totally convinced that meg/sam conversation was yet another clue that all with sam isn't as it seems. i found it quite convenient that meg didn't get to answer sam's question because demons showed up and even more convenient that the conversation could never be revisited since meg is now dead...another happy coincidence in a string of them this season. i didnt' feel that sam was being sidelined, i felt that we were being given another hint that there's more to sam's story.

as for sam admitting to meg that he still longed to be normal, that he liked it, that doesn't mean he wants to be with amelia and not his brother. as a matter of fact, when sam learned he is a legacy to the man of letters i noticed a contentment in sam that he's never had before. he finally can have his cake and eat it too. he can be part of the hunting world with his brother, doing what he loves to do, research and still be able to possibly have a family some day. to do again...with someone sam does eventually truly love and that someone who loves and accepts sam for who he is....a hunter/mol.
See I thought that whole conversation weird too-like most Sam's convo's this year. Unicorn. Hit a dog. Interruption is a very convenient spot. To me the whole thing screamed clues.

Sam does seem content, despite is health. I would love it if they could find a middle ground between being only the job and having a life- at least in the future. The is my absolute hope for them.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-24 12:25
Percy, I really don't like the idea of Castiel being Dean's "brother" either. I like Castiel and think he is a good friend to Dean, but I'm not sure why the show continues to push the idea that he and Dean are "brothers."

For me, this show was special b/c of the bond btw the brothers. It was unique and special. Dean wouldn't go to Hell for just anyone. He wouldn't fall apart at just anyone's death. He wouldn't sell his soul for any old person they met. And putting the OOC whackiness of this season aside, the same goes for Sam. Sam wouldn't just fall apart at just anyone's death. He wouldn't get drunk and try to sell his soul for just anyone. No . . . Sam and Dean had a very unique and special bond. Even Lisa remarked that she wouldn't sell her soul for her sister. The point was to highlight, IMO, how unique Sam and Dean's relationship was. Lisa could never understand their relationship b/c she had zero empathy and didn't grow up the way they did. It was a foreign concept to her.

I liked that the bond btw Sam and Dean was special, strong, and specific to them. But with Dean opening up "brotherhood" to every person he meets, the Sam/Dean bond becomes, IMO, less special. Ever since S4, I've found the foundation of this show (i.e., the Sam/Dean relationship) to be on shaky ground, and this doesn't necessarily help in that regard.

I don't mind them expanding Sam/Dean's universe but I wish they would stop having Dean call everyone "family," esp. when the writing doesn't back up the claim. Why does Dean see Castiel as a brother? When did that happen? When they first said it back in S5, I didn't care for it. I haven't even seen the Dean/Castiel relationship develop to that point. I see them as really good friends. We haven't seen much of Benny but I've heard that war-like situations can make people feel like "family."

I guess I don't see why Cas can't just be a good friend. Why is that a problem?
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-24 13:50
Just chiming in on the "brother" conversation because I think there are more brotherhoods to consider. For example, I got the impression Dean and Benny had become brothers-in-arm s - the type of brotherhood that develops between unlikely people in war, and I think Dean and Benny were basically fighting their way through Purgatory together. I got the impression in the season opener that they were going their separate ways - but that Benny called him because he was experiencing the same types of PTSD symptoms as Dean was, and was looking for someone who could understand. It seemed realistic to me because there is a long history of bonding in war situations - the bands of brothers.
As for Castiel, his brotherhood to Dean is more complex than just fighting together. First there's the fact that Dean will always feel an obligation to him for having pulled him out of Hell. I would like to see them show that bond with Sam too. Even if he was soulless at first, Castiel did try to save him from the Lucifer's pit. Had he not resurrected Sam's body, it is unlikely Dean would ever even have thought to make a deal with Death to retrieve his soul.
Castiel has even reminded Dean about what all he has done for him more than once - "Who but your family has ever done more?" and "Always happy to bleed for the Winchesters."An d that was even before Dean found him again in Purgatory.
I think - and if any of you are military, former military, or military family, you could help clarify this with me - the bond formed by fighting side by side and saving each other repeatedly is as strong as blood - and stronger than blood bonds with people who you do not trust, especially during and right after combat.
Just something to consider as I definitely saw symptoms of PTSD in Dean when he first returned from Purgatory.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 14:11
Teresa, I completely agree with this.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-03-22 21:50
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They've been trying to sell the whole "Cas is like family" story since Season 5. I like Cas but never thought he should have been elevated to family. Can't they (Dean and Cas) just be really good friends?
I 100% agree. I feel that the writers are just pandering and putting little teasers in to service a section of the fandom and keep them sufficiently drip fed with hints / moments that they don't stop watching, but none of it feels believable to me and it comes across as forced and ooc. The writers really struggle to write these scenes for this reason I think ie that they don't flow organically from the way the characters would act. They are deliberately inserted to placate a section of the fans who want something very specific (a sooo spechul relationship between D/C) that if realised would change the nature of the show. They can't and will never do this, but they daren't burn this bridge. Hence some VERY lame scenes are the result. This was commented on by Misha and Jensen when they both talked about not feeling able to deliver the lame, far too romantic-soundi ng for 2 straight guys to say to each other, lines written for the scene where Dean gives Cas his coat back.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-24 12:39
Geordiegirl, I was just rambling above about my problem w/the whole "Cas is like a brother" thing. In short, I don't feel the writers have earned their way to that classification. I've often said w/Sam that the show spends way too much time "telling" rather than "showing," and I would say the same thing has occurred w/this whole "Castiel is like a brother/family."

When? When did this occur?

In S4, Dean is introduced to Cas in the premiere. Cas threatens in the 2nd episode, takes him to the past and threatens Sam in the 3rd. When did we next see him? Maybe the Samhain episode where Sam got to meet the angels for the first time. And then what . . . he pops up in H&H, right? I didn't see much bonding in the 4th season. I saw more development for Cas a character. He was beginning to like Dean and coming into his own.

In the 5th season, he just seemed to be a part of TFW. He asked for the amulet and then flitted away. Dean got to see how he was in the future, but I think that made him appreciate Cas more for how he was. They worked that one case together and went to the strip club, but it was obvious that Dean was missing his brother. I have not rewatched much of S5, but I don't recall any moments that solidified that Dean and Castiel were like brothers. I remember laughing in shock and disbelief when Cas told Anna that Sam was his friend. LOL! Since when?

And in the 6th season, I felt like Dean treated Cas more like a device he could use every now and then. "Cas, do this. Cas, do that." My favorite Cas line was something to the effect of, "Of course, Dean. Your problems always take precedence." I was happy when Cas said that b/c Dean was, IMO, being a jerk to him. They didn't seem all that brotherly to me in the 6th season.

Anyway, my main point is the writers have not really, IMO, developed their relationship past friendship to brotherhood. I haven't seen it so it feels very false and fake to me. Every time Dean says it, I just don't feel it. It feels like a line. In comparison to him telling Bobby in the dream world that Bobby was like a 2nd father to him - that I believed and felt was genuine.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-24 13:18
Hi lala, I have to agree with some of the posters in saying that the bond Sam and Dean have is completely different than anyone elses. More volatile but also much closer than any other! I think Dean's definition of family does include good friends. I think Dean loves Cas but would never really consider him in the same "brother" context as Sam. And no matter what he said Benny is not in that same category as Sam. I think Dean and Benny got very close in Pur, but he would never elevate him to "real" family. Just his somewhat loose definition of extended family. As evidenced by Dean cutting out Benny when their friendship got between he and Sam. JMO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 13:38
Leah, I agree with you. I don't mind Dean calling Castiel family or a brother because I do think he elevates friends to family. He more or less said Rufus was family. I think he thought of Jo and Ellen as family, even though he never expressly said it. Just as I don't think he really ever had a bond with Samuel or even Henry so didn't really consider them family.

Being on the same level as Sam is another story. Like you said, Sam is a different category. I believed from from anyone else in Dean's life, including actually family. When Dean had a choice between Adam and Sam, he chose Sam. I think their mom is the only one who comes close to holding a candle to Sam. He loved and idolized John but he and Sam have unique bond that has been confirmed over and over again. And I think think it goes both ways. Which is why the first half bugs me so much. But I really do think something is up there still -so happy thoughts.

It's also why the SS send up bothered me a little but again I put this more on the level of when John and Bobby overcame Demons for him.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 22:09
I don't mind Cas being referred to as Dean's family. But I don't in any way shape or form put their relationship on the same level of Sam and Dean.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-21 13:59
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Still, I loved the scene and thought it was done much better than the Swan Song scene, because it was made quite clear that Cas didn't kill Dean because he loves Dean (as a friend, is all I'm saying).

To me, this scene clearly showed that humanity's capacity of love trumps all (or, in Kripke terms, the love of family conquers everything)-- and I think that's what Swan Song was going for and failed miserably at.
I totally agree. I also thought it was handled FAR better here than in Swan Song.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-21 14:08
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Quote:
Still, I loved the scene and thought it was done much better than the Swan Song scene, because it was made quite clear that Cas didn't kill Dean because he loves Dean (as a friend, is all I'm saying).

To me, this scene clearly showed that humanity's capacity of love trumps all (or, in Kripke terms, the love of family conquers everything)-- and I think that's what Swan Song was going for and failed miserably at.
I totally agree. I also thought it was handled FAR better here than in Swan Song.
Well everyone is entitled to their opinion even though I dont agree with the sentiments but in what way was it done FAR better ?. In what way was Sam fighting back control of himself through the strong love and bond with his brother somehow less than what Castiel did?


What remit is required to prove your love towards Dean in these two similar moments that wasnt there in Swan Song ? .
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-21 15:23
Because in Swan Song there was absolutely no need to include a (retconned) plastic toy soldier when Sam overcame Lucifer. It was superfluous, IMO.

In this episode, it was Cas looking at Dean's bloodied face and hearing Dean's words which allowed him to overcome Naomi's grip. That's the way it should have happened in Swan Song. So yes, this episode did a FAR better job in my opinion.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-03-22 21:59
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Because in Swan Song there was absolutely no need to include a (retconned) plastic toy soldier when Sam overcame Lucifer. It was superfluous, IMO.

In this episode, it was Cas looking at Dean's bloodied face and hearing Dean's words which allowed him to overcome Naomi's grip. That's the way it should have happened in Swan Song. So yes, this episode did a FAR better job in my opinion.
And it wasn't Dean's bloodied face in SS that caused Sam to regain control? It wasn't his love for his brother that gave him the strength to overcome THE DEVIL (not just some fellow angel trying to make him do bad stuff)? What exactly are you saying here? Are you REALLY (because I can't believe you, or anyone, can be saying what it sounds like you are saying) claiming that it was the love of a plastic soldier that gave Sam the strength to beat Lucifer? Are you saying that the soldier represented something to Sam OTHER than the memories of a life lived with Dean, of everything he had meant to him and done for him since the day he was born? If it wasn't Dean's impending death, and his love for Dean that allowed Sam to prevail then please explain to me what you think it was. You may think the toy soldier was unnecessary, but you also seem to be implying that the presence of the toy somehow diminishes what Sam did, and you seem to be claiming that Cas overcoming Naomi was somehow more of an achievement and shows that he loves Dean more than Sam does. I genuinely don't get it.

The only possible explanation I can come up with for the people who believe as you do is that you are so determined to think badly of Sam, and to diminish the importance / strength of the brothers relationship (so that Dean's relationship with Cas can be shown to be comparable / better) that you are blind to what the writers / actors are portraying right in front of your eyes.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-23 05:57
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are so determined to think badly of Sam,
I agree.Sam will always be the worst for Dean for some.Personally for me when I was watching the scene between dean and cas it did not have any tension, it just fell flat.I have watched it only once but the impression I got from the acting and dialogue was it was not as good as swan song.I will have to watch again and see if this impression changes.
Also Geordiegirl1967 Swan song has always been a bane for Sam haters and it makes me like the episode even more...
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-23 11:43
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The only possible explanation I can come up with for the people who believe as you do is that you are so determined to think badly of Sam, and to diminish the importance / strength of the brothers relationship . . .
This is exactly what it is. Those who dislike Sam don't give him credit for anything, and they tend to put a negative spin on every single thing he does. There is no winning for them when it comes to Sam. He's just wrong. Plain and simple.

They like this scene btw Cas and Dean for two reasons: (1) it doesn't involve Sam, which is always a plus in their eyes and (2) it further strengthens the Dean/Castiel bond, which is miles better, in their eyes, than the Sam/Dean bond.

I've stopped discussing the show (and especially Sam) w/these fans b/c we are coming from such just different places that it's really pointless. When you can put a negative spin on little Sam giving Dean the amulet, then I know I can't discuss the show or Sam w/you.

To me, there is NO ambiguity around SS. I love that episode, and I especially loved Sam overcoming the DEVIL to save Dean. My sister's favorite line is when Sam says, "Don't worry, Dean. I got him." Awww . . . such a great scene and moment that highlighted the great love these two brothers have for each other!
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-23 19:36
First of all, there is no need for you to be so aggressively rude and condescending.


I never said or implied that Sam doesn't love Dean, nor did I say or imply that it wasn't his love that allowed him to break Lucifer's hold. My point is that IMO, the WRITING of that scene fell flat for me because they felt the need to include this toy soldier back story which I don't feel was necessary, and I felt it diluted what could and should have been a more powerful scene. Again, IMO.

You don't have to agree with me. But I am entitled to my opinion. And I think it's quite rude of you to assume that I think "badly of Sam." I do not. It's not about Sam, it's about how the scene was written.

And no, I'm not "blind." I just don't share your opinion.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-24 14:32
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because they felt the need to include this toy soldier back story which I don't feel was necessary,
For me the toy soldier,DW SW and all their memories were likes Sam punching Lucifer in his brain and then coming out victorious which made it more powerful and beautiful.So yeah,I too disagree with you
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-03-23 04:27
Sorry Chris_J but cant do anything but strongly disagree the toy soldier was a trigger of memories to a childhood and a bond with Dean . Sam regained control of Lucifer not some minor demon because of that bond and love and yet it seems some are trying to devalue that by claiming what Castiel did was more worthy .

Not impressed I am afraid on two levels( 1) The writers trying to recreate that scene with Dean and Castiel and( 2) Those using it to diminish Sam's courage and love in that scene .
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 07:52
In the minority here... didn't love it but didn't hate it either. Something just seemed a little off but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it was just me having a bad day at work yesterday so I'll go back and watch it again tonight.

So sorry to see Meg killed off.

The plot thickens with Naomi and Crowley..

That was a little sloppy of Sam to throw the bloody napkin in the garbage, almost like he was trying to get caught. It was also a little strange that Dean called Sam out on his lying about how he's doing since the trials started in front of an angel he doesn't trust and a demon.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-21 08:03
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In the minority here... didn't love it but didn't hate it either. Something just seemed a little off but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it was just me having a bad day at work yesterday so I'll go back and watch it again tonight.

So sorry to see Meg killed off.

The plot thickens with Naomi and Crowley..

That was a little sloppy of Sam to throw the bloody napkin in the garbage, almost like he was trying to get caught. It was also a little strange that Dean called Sam out on his lying about how he's doing since the trials started in front of an angel he doesn't trust and a demon.
I think Deans cavilier attitude is giving info about Sam to people he isn't supposed to trust just shows hgow little thought the writers put into anything concerning Sam. Or maybe you know.... Benny is just so much a better brother then Sam ever was that Dean will freelh give anyone info on Sam that could hurt him. And for whatever warped reason Dean needs to a reason for Sam to be hurt/in danger so he can swoop in and fix/save him.

This is the real reason whyI can think Dean wants Sam around.
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-03-21 08:09
I think Dean chose to call Sam out in front of a demon and an angel ( he didn't trust entirely) had nothing to do with either the demon or the angel. It was a desperation moment, and the only way for him to tell Sam clearly why he he had to stay out. He was worried about Sam and he was being honest and clear. Which I thought was refreshing.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 08:53
Quote:
I think Dean chose to call Sam out in front of a demon and an angel ( he didn't trust entirely) had nothing to do with either the demon or the angel. It was a desperation moment, and the only way for him to tell Sam clearly why he he had to stay out. He was worried about Sam and he was being honest and clear. Which I thought was refreshing.
JoRuth - I understand your point about a desperation moment but Dean could have asked to have a word in private with Sam, it just seemed strange to mention it in front of an angel and demon they don't trust.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 09:10
I agree that Dean calling Sam out in front of Meg, who has inflicted incredible damage on them and those they love, and Cas, who they consider to be compromised, was an bad strategic move.
E
# E 2013-03-24 11:01
I agree that calling Sam out on his health in front of Cas and Meg was probably not the best strategic move, but since Meg died shortly thereafter and Cas could sense the damage in Sam without Dean even having to tell him about it, for me, this falls under the "it doesn't really matter" umbrella.

Maybe the fact that Cas knows Sam in compromised will be significant later. Maybe Cas needs to know this for some reason that will be made clear later.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 11:32
I agree. Dean was frustrated. Sam was insisting that the tag along, but Dean knew he wasn't doing all right and was fed up w/Sam pretending he was 100%.

Plus, it looks like Castiel already knew, and they were both pretty vague so Meg never caught on to what was happening.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-21 08:55
Amy
I think both brothers have moved away from those hurtful comments since they renewed their commitment to eachother. I don't feel any self serving motives from either brother other than to help! Dean has always had a cavalier attitude, but not in an intentionally destructive way. In this case I agree with JoRuth, I think the writer's intentions are to put honesty as a base for the brothers to build on their relationship. How did you feel about this ep Amy?
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 12:33
Kaz, those hurtful comments have just been forgotten and ignored by the writers, which is really a shame. Why even raise the idea that Dean has never really forgiven Sam for anything if they weren't planning on actually addressing the issue? I guess we'll never know.
Amy
# Amy 2013-03-21 15:29
Quote:
Amy
I think both brothers have moved away from those hurtful comments since they renewed their commitment to eachother. I don't feel any self serving motives from either brother other than to help! Dean has always had a cavalier attitude, but not in an intentionally destructive way. In this case I agree with JoRuth, I think the writer's intentions are to put honesty as a base for the brothers to build on their relationship. How did you feel about this ep Amy?
Honestgly Kaz, i feel hurt and betrayed...not by this episode in particular but by Carver adn the entire season; especially the first ten episodes. I dont understand why Carver did what he did to Sam. I mean i should have figured it out when before the season started Carver announced he was a Dean/Castiel relationship fan. But I never thought he would destory Sam to attain his goals of making Dean adn Castiel the main relationship.

Why couldn't Carver just give Sam another relationship and then move the boys in differnt directions? Sam could have gravitated toward the MOL while Dean was the main hunter. WHY attack the very core of Sam just to prop his favorite charector relationship?

I think for me Sam is well and truely dead. I dont know who this Sam is thats running around...probab ly just a 'SAm" Dean snatched from an Alternate Reality world. Or maybe Souless really did grow a whole new soul...amking him a completely different guy. Maybe why Dean kept piling on in the first ten eps is because he KNOWS this guy isn't really OUR Sam. (and would explain the better brother crap) And then somewhere around Trial and Error Dean popped a Prozac or a midol.

Bottom line is Sam winchester is dead and Jared is playing a completely different charector. Pretty much what they did to Iolous on Hercules The Legendary Journeys.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-21 18:08
Amy, I'm with you on the strange and not always believable characterisatio n of Sam (and Dean) this year. However, where I might differ is that I think the writers have been struggling with producing good characterisatio n of the brothers since the beginning of S4.

I don't feel like Jared and Jensen are playing completely different characters but I do feel like they are playing characters that aren't written with as much subtlety and understanding as they used to be in earlier seasons.

I know that characters change and develop over long-running television series but I'm not sure that Sam and Dean have done much in the way of growing or developing in the last couple of years. At times, the writing for these characters is almost superficial. I'm not saying every episode has been like that, but I think there's been a steady increase over the last few seasons with this season being the weakest for characterisatio n.

For me, it's like this season's writers are using study notes or Wikipedia as their source material for Sam and Dean rather than trying to develop the plot through a strong knowledge of the characters and their past development.
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-03-21 08:14
I love all these theories about Crowley. I was wondering too about the time period and Mesopotamia and Fergus Macleod. I wonder if he could be all...including bad angel. A corrupt spirit in a Scottish body of a certain time. An ancient corrupt spirit...both angel and now demon. All time is fluid.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-03-21 08:25
Holy cow, that was a good one! Just the opening scene with Cass killing Dean, I was like WTF?? :-? And then when the camera pans out and we see all the dead Deans (gulp), we know that is Naomi's endgame. :cry:

Robbie Thompson is so good, let's hope he sticks around. The guy is the best at cultural references. This episode had so many of them. All right, I'm going to copy Ardeo and bullet point the rest.

* Dean calling Meg and Castiel Megstiel, LOL. Do you think that was a wink to the fans? I do.
* Sam's conversation with Meg, telling him he'd found his unicorn. She knows Sam deepest thoughts.
* Castiel beating Dean. :cry: Castiel coming out of it because Dean told him that he was family, reminded me of Samifer beating Dean in "Swan Song". Blood don't end with blood...or species.
* Meg & Castiel's little moment. I love how she can make him squirm with her comments about the pizza man. :oops:
* Meg's death. :cry: :cry: I'm so very sad to see her go, but I thought it was handled beautifully.
* Dean telling Sam that he doesn't want anyone lying to him anymore. Finally, I think we'll be getting truth out of both of them.
* Naomi & Crowley. "Tart stole my move". :lol:
* "Rudy Hobbit always gets a pass". Oh Dean, love ya buddy. ;-)

And I could go on and on. :P A solid A for me.
elle
# elle 2013-03-23 20:04
I'm with you - that opening scene was just unbelievable. Very well done - great lead in.

All the points you point out were my favourite moments in the episode - well, Meg/Cas romance I could do with a little less though the pizza man made me laugh. I loved the final exchange between Sam and Dean. Shows the maturity between these boys like we haven't really witnessed before.

Yes, I do think the Megstiel was a wink at the fans. We do love our ship mash-up names, don't we?
E
# E 2013-03-21 08:39
I really loved this episode overall. Well done! Currently I am not bothered by the Crowley is he Fergus McLeod or isnt' he dilemma, maybe we will get more info on that later. There is no reason that he can't be an angel in deep cover who's been wearing Fergus for the past 400 years and is protective of that vessel. Then the whole issue with Bobby and Fergus's son still is relevant to that moment in the show.

I have only one quibble and it's not really even with the mechanics of the story, it's more with characterizatio n. Was anyone else bothered by the fact that Dean was so upset with the mystery of how Cas got out of purgatory? Um.... hello Dean, you are also hiding how YOU got out of purgatory. Oh, how I wish Sam had mentioned that! Just one little throw away line for the sake of continuity.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 09:04
Quote:
I really loved this episode overall. Well done! Currently I am not bothered by the Crowley is he Fergus McLeod or isnt' he dilemma, maybe we will get more info on that later. There is no reason that he can't be an angel in deep cover who's been wearing Fergus for the past 400 years and is protective of that vessel. Then the whole issue with Bobby and Fergus's son still is relevant to that moment in the show.

I have only one quibble and it's not really even with the mechanics of the story, it's more with characterization. Was anyone else bothered by the fact that Dean was so upset with the mystery of how Cas got out of purgatory? Um.... hello Dean, you are also hiding how YOU got out of purgatory. Oh, how I wish Sam had mentioned that! Just one little throw away line for the sake of continuity.
E - agreed on the getting out of purgatory - we still don't have the whole story about how Benny knew about the portal and how all of this ties together; very interested to see if they'll ever address it.

To that end, when Dean told Sam in the car that he can't handle any more lies, I hope Dean takes that to heart as well; don't mean to start a tit-for-tat about who's lying about what but just saying that both Sam AND Dean have done their fair share of lying to each other. That being said, I don't think Sam's lying about his condition was done out of malice; didn't want Dean to worry about him and also trying to convince himself he'll be alright.
E
# E 2013-03-21 09:25
I agree! I don't think we are done with Benny yet, so maybe Dean will finally have to come clean about how he got out of purgatory. He can't demand that Sam stop lying if he's going to continue to lie himself. I think that we will all have to wait an episode though, cause next weeks looks like filler, and the writers of that episode unfortunately aren't the type to use filler episodes to flesh out meaningfully brewing plot points from other episodes very well. Hopefully JC will have pushed this duo a bit to provide more substance than they usually do.
prix68
# prix68 2013-03-21 10:21
Sorry, I don't see how Dean is lying about Benny and getting out of purgatory. He told Sam that Benny saved his life and got him out of purgatory and Sam said he understood that but that Dean should have killed him when they got topside. I can't remember what episode it was, but they were standing by the car getting fast food
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 11:14
Quote:
Sorry, I don't see how Dean is lying about Benny and getting out of purgatory. He told Sam that Benny saved his life and got him out of purgatory and Sam said he understood that but that Dean should have killed him when they got topside. I can't remember what episode it was, but they were standing by the car getting fast food
Prix68 - no, Dean never explained how he got out; if you refer back to Southern Comfort, Garth asked Dean the very same question and Sam was all ears, waiting for an answer. I think Dean just changed the subject. This also gets to the theme of perception this year. Most of the fans like Benny because they saw him in flashbacks with Dean, saving his life more than once and proving himself on the battlefield. Sam never saw this and Dean wasn't very forthcoming. So, while not an outright lie, it's more a lie of omission.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-22 08:34
Dean doesn't owe Garth an explanation of how he got out of Purgatory. Sam wasn't all ears waiting for an answer, because in just that very episode, Sam already told Dean that he KNEW what Dean had to do to and that it was Benny who got him out. Sam was still angry at Dean for not being upfront about Benny, and so he was waiting for Dean to mention BENNY to Garth. Which Dean didn't do because Garth is a hunter and Dean didn't want it getting out to hunters that he had befriended a vampire.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 13:17
E, I agree w/Prix68. I don't see where Dean has lied to Sam about Purgatory. He told Sam that Benny helped him escape. Apparently, they also spoke for an hour or more during Bitten about their years apart that we didn't see.

I guess I don't know what other information Dean has to disclose re: his escape from Purgatory.
E
# E 2013-03-22 08:28
The ONLY thing that Dean has ever said to Sam about Benny and the 'how' of his release from purgatory was "he's the reason I'm out." He has avoided every other detail about his time in purgatory and specifically HOW he got out despite Sam's asking, and Garth's asking him point blank. Dean has not mentioned that he carried Benny around inside his own body, using a spell that was provided to him by Benny. He hasn't discussed how he used a "human portal" that only Benny knew existed or how it should be used to get himself and Benny out. He took Benny's "essence" to his grave site and used a spell (also provided by Benny) to resurrect his corpse into a living being once again. Sam knows none of this, although it has been implied on several occasions that Sam has asked repeatedly. Lies by omission are still lies, and Dean has been shown to be withholding a great deal of information from Sam, even going to so far as to leave Sam in the car on one occasion so that he and Cas could discuss the purgatory situation in private without letting Sam in on any of the information.

So, yes, I do feel that there is a little bit of a double standard going on here. Dean was pretty upset that Cas hadn't told him HOW he got out of purgatory, and yet he himself hasn't divulged even a small part of the relevant information about how HE HIMSELF got out of purgatory to Sam. The sad fact of the matter is that how Cas got out of purgatory (via Naomi and the angels) isn't nearly as sketchy as how Dean got out. And now Dean knows about Cas, and Sam still knows nothing.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-22 08:51
When did Sam ask Dean specifically about how he got Benny out of Purgatory? He didn't. And Dean didn't lie about it. He's told Sam that Benny is the reason he got out. Which is the truth.

Unless Sam asks a direct question about the specifics of how Dean got Benny out and Dean doesn't tell him the truth -- like Dean asking Sam point blank how he's feeling and if anything is wrong and Sam not telling him the truth -- then Dean is lying to Sam about it. But that's not the case.

And Cas knows exactly how Dean got out of Purgatory, so no it's not a double standard either.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-22 09:12
Quote:
The ONLY thing that Dean has ever said to Sam about Benny and the 'how' of his release from purgatory was "he's the reason I'm out." He has avoided every other detail about his time in purgatory and specifically HOW he got out despite Sam's asking, and Garth's asking him point blank. Dean has not mentioned that he carried Benny around inside his own body, using a spell that was provided to him by Benny. He hasn't discussed how he used a "human portal" that only Benny knew existed or how it should be used to get himself and Benny out. He took Benny's "essence" to his grave site and used a spell (also provided by Benny) to resurrect his corpse into a living being once again. Sam knows none of this, although it has been implied on several occasions that Sam has asked repeatedly. Lies by omission are still lies, and Dean has been shown to be withholding a great deal of information from Sam, even going to so far as to leave Sam in the car on one occasion so that he and Cas could discuss the purgatory situation in private without letting Sam in on any of the information.

So, yes, I do feel that there is a little bit of a double standard going on here. Dean was pretty upset that Cas hadn't told him HOW he got out of purgatory, and yet he himself hasn't divulged even a small part of the relevant information about how HE HIMSELF got out of purgatory to Sam. The sad fact of the matter is that how Cas got out of purgatory (via Naomi and the angels) isn't nearly as sketchy as how Dean got out. And now Dean knows about Cas, and Sam still knows nothing.
Sam is always supposed to come clean but Dean never has to. I'd say that's more than a little bit of a double standard.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-22 12:33
E, like Chris, I don't recall Sam asking Dean how Benny got out of Purgatory, but then I haven't rewatched any of the earlier episodes.

All I know is Dean told Sam that Benny helped him escape Purgatory. I just don't know how much more needs to be said about that.

Honestly, if Benny were more of a factor in the show, then I might care a little more but he is such a non-factor. We've see him all of 4x. He's not harassing or bothering Dean. He's pretty much minding his own business.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 13:07
Yeah, I never thought Sam was "lying" out of malice or anything. I felt he didn't want to worry Dean, esp. after having just announced he was perfectly okay. It makes complete sense that he also didn't want to acknowledge that he was getting sick. I'm happy it's out in the open now.

The moment in the Impala at the end was my favorite moment as well as the mini-fight in front of Megstiel.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 11:28
E, I'm wondering if this has something to do with why Castiel doesn't trust Dean. Maybe he knows something even Dean doesn't know.
E
# E 2013-03-22 08:32
This is a really good point... we have already seen how Dean had incorrect perceptions about Purgatory... maybe he remembered some things wrong (Cas letting go) and maybe he's forgotten entirely other things... I hope we get more on this.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-21 13:49
Quote:
Was anyone else bothered by the fact that Dean was so upset with the mystery of how Cas got out of purgatory? Um.... hello Dean, you are also hiding how YOU got out of purgatory. Oh, how I wish Sam had mentioned that! Just one little throw away line for the sake of continuity.
But Dean isn't hiding how he got out of Purgatory. Dean told Sam that Benny is the reason he got out. And Sam confirmed this in Southern Comfort:

DEAN: He's also the reason I'm topside and not roasting on a spit in Purgatory. Anything else?

SAM: Don't pretend I don't get it. I know you had to do what you had to down there.



This was the Show confirming for us that Sam KNOWS how Dean got out of Purgatory. The fact that Sam knows this is also why he hasn't brought it up even once since SC. Not even in this episode when it was the perfect opportunity to do so. But for the writers it isn't necessary for Sam to question Dean about it because Sam knows.

But how Cas escaped IS a mystery. Which is why Dean was written as being upset about it. It's not OOC. Both Sam and Cas are well aware that Benny got Dean out of Purgatory, but only Cas knows how he got out.
E
# E 2013-03-22 09:02
Sorry Chris_J, but that his now how I see this bit of dialog at all. To me, in Southern Comfort, There is no way IMO that between the scene in the restaurant where it is made clear that Dean has told Sam nothing about his time in purgatory or how he got out (via Garth asking him and Sam's reaction to that question) and the end of the episode (with all the research they were doing, all the time they spent separated in the episode and Dean being possessed by the spector etc...) that somehow Sam and Dean had a huge heart to heart in which all of the purgatory details were revealed to Sam in a scene that WE DID NOT GET TO SEE and that Sam's new knowledge of Dean's purgatory detail is then revealed to the audience in that one, completely cryptic line of dialog. There is just no way that all of this important information could be glossed over so completely or revealed to the audience in such a throw away moment. IMO Sam does not know anything. If he does know all about purgatory and Dean no longer has anything to hide then why in A Little Slice of Kevin did Dean not want to discuss Cas's purgatory situation in front of Sam, instead leaving him in the car so that he wouldn't overhear any of the information? If Sam already knew, then why hide it still? Then several episodes later in Citizen Fang Dean's comment of "Does that sound the Benny we know to you?" to which Sam replies "I don't know Benny." To me this clearly indicates that Sam still knows absolutely nothing, about Benny about Purgatory and about how Dean got out of purgatory. Why hide any of this information if Sam supposedly knows already?

In the line referenced, Sam was talking about having to do what you have to do when you are in a terrible situation like purgatory.. he would know, he was in the Devils cage for 180 years after all, so I am sure he understands having to do what's needed in a tough situation and also of possibly feeling ashamed of ones actions. If anything, Sam was trying to absolve Dean of any guilt that he was feeling over what he had done, not an indication that Sam knew anything about the details. That's all that one, insignificant, line was indicating in my opinion and nothing more.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-23 19:44
But Sam doesn't actually know Benny. But he does know that Benny is the one who got Dean out of Purgatory, as he stated in Southern Comfort.

And no Dean didn't want to go into the details of him befriending a vampire in front of Garth, who is a hunter. Why would he? But Sam did, in fact, verify that he knew what Dean had to do to get out of Purgatory.

So IMO Dean isn't lying about the fact that Benny is the one who got him out of Purgatory.

I don't understand why it's so important for some to push this idea that Dean is currently lying about Benny/Purgatory ?
E
# E 2013-03-24 11:04
We will have to agree to disagree here, I don't agree with your interpretation at all. Sorry. :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-21 09:53
Wow! Awesome episode... and I can totally understand why you've ended up with so many bullet points... there is just so much to think about after this jam-packed 40 minutes :-?

The opening was both stunning and horrifying. I was thinking WTF is going on here... did I miss something? Before I realised it wasn't actually Dean that Cass was killing. Then, later in the episode, when it was happening for real, the tension was just incredible. I kept thinking Sam would intervene, but then it was Dean talking about family that snapped Castiel out of it (wonderfully reminiscent of Swan Song). Just wow!

I did not see Meg's death coming at all. I actually thought she'd be working with Crowley now... that he'd have told her the boys plan to close the gates of hell & enlisted her help. She has switched sides previously. So I was not expecting Crowley to kill her. I'm also a bit dismayed to lose a character that we've all loved to hate (or at least mistrust).

My heart is also breaking for Sam (once again). What did Cass mean? Can he get better? Or is he just going to get worse as the trials continue. I'm so worried :cry:

Sam and Dean's conversation in the impala was very well written. I was just about to start sobbing when the mood was broken by the LOTR joke... lol

Anyhow, that's about all I can think of at the moment. I really need to watch it again (and again & again) to take everything in. I hadn't even thought about the Fergus McLeod issue until I read some of the comments here. I will have to ponder that one.

I thought this was a wonderful episode... and I just love this show SO MUCH.
Jean
# Jean 2013-03-21 09:56
I'm more convinced now that Sam was manipulated by the CIAngels...

I remember Meg saying something along the lines of "You hit a dog and you stopped?" to Sam, and to me it felt like she was pointing out how ridiculous that sounded. When the shot switched to Sam I was half-expecting him to be in Naomi's room with Naomi yelling at him to convince Meg about it! Also, when Naomi told Cas to kill Dean she said "Kill the Winchester" and not "Kill the Winchesters", with an 'S', and I found it strange that she only wanted Dean killed, wouldn't it make sense to kill both brothers if she wanted all loose ends tied up? Even in the beginning of the episode she had Cas kill thousands of Deans and not a single Sam...Did she really believe that Cas would be able to kill Sam without batting an eyelid? I know Cas and Dean have a profound bond and all that but still, I refuse to believe that Cas would have no problem killing Sam. Maybe Naomi didn't need to kill Sam because she knew she could just order him to get out of the way? And what about Don?! No way he just turns up alive all of a sudden!! Dammit, show, answer our questions!!

Loved this episode, btw :lol:
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 10:14
Quote:
I'm more convinced now that Sam was manipulated by the CIAngels...

I remember Meg saying something along the lines of "You hit a dog and you stopped?" to Sam, and to me it felt like she was pointing out how ridiculous that sounded. When the shot switched to Sam I was half-expecting him to be in Naomi's room with Naomi yelling at him to convince Meg about it! Also, when Naomi told Cas to kill Dean she said "Kill the Winchester" and not "Kill the Winchesters", with an 'S', and I found it strange that she only wanted Dean killed, wouldn't it make sense to kill both brothers if she wanted all loose ends tied up? Even in the beginning of the episode she had Cas kill thousands of Deans and not a single Sam...Did she really believe that Cas would be able to kill Sam without batting an eyelid? I know Cas and Dean have a profound bond and all that but still, I refuse to believe that Cas would have no problem killing Sam. Maybe Naomi didn't need to kill Sam because she knew she could just order him to get out of the way? And what about Don?! No way he just turns up alive all of a sudden!! Dammit, show, answer our questions!!

Loved this episode, btw :lol:
Didn't Naomi tell Cas in an earlier scene that the WinchesterS couldn't be trusted? I agree with your suspicions about Don being find alive, that happening at about the same time Dean got out of purgatory, and the individual waiting outside of Sam and Amelia's house when he left for the last time. There might have been some angelic intervention, just not sure it was in a manner of Naomi controlling Sam the same way she was reprogamming Cas.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 11:37
Yay, another person who agrees with me about the dog line. Yeah I think that definitely means something. And I kept thinking the were going to cut away to Naomi too.

I didn't think of the thing with the singular Winchester or the fact that they didn't have him practice killing Sam. It could have just as easily been Sam who went in that room with him and of course he'd have trouble killing Sam too. Not as much as killing Dean, obviously, but I think Cas still feels a lot of guilt for what he did to Sam. That would have to be overcome as well.
elle
# elle 2013-03-23 20:10
Meg saying that line about the dog had me all ears too. I wonder if Amelia is really so on the "normal" side of the coin....
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-21 11:21
Great review! LOVED THE EPISODE. Really one the best of the season.

If it wasn't a continuity error, then I think this the best evidence yet that there's more to Crowley, which wouldn't surprise me and would be pretty cool.

I really didn't like the idea of Megstiel because 1 she's a demon who has done terrible things to them and 2 I have trouble seeing Castiel as sexual. 3. It just doesn't go with the nature of the show. BUT I loved that scene between them. I started to get a bad feeling though as soon as the conversation started though and by the time she said if we make it though this, I was pretty sure she was a dead demon walking. That was a good-bye scene if I ever saw one. And a sweet one.

I really didn't think demons could be redeemed on this show, they've always been shown to have ulterior or selfish motives for even the most altruistic arts. But this might have be a change to that flow. Meg was definitely shown as sacrificing herself for them, even after Crowley told her the plan. I've read several times that they thought it was too small of send off for such a long-term character. But for me it was perfect. Anything thing more and it would have looked too poignant for a character that has done so much damage. But she got to have that moment of redemption that really felt right. I thought struck just the right balance.

I also loved that scene between her and Sam-for multiple reasons. One I did think it was nice that someone was listening to him without judging him for not looking for Dean(something I even have trouble with). But I'll admit even more importantly, it seems like a flashing red sign that something is up. First the way she asked the name. And I might be reading too much into this one. But Either Meg wanted the name for nefarious purposes (which seems unlikely given her actions a few minutes later) or the writer was highlighting that the name was important.

The other one, I talked to several people who had the same reaction I did. When she asked about the dog, it was like it was specifically being pointed out that there was something odd with that. Highlighting that we don't know what happened. Maybe I'm reading too much into that because it is what I desperately want but I was the only one who had that reaction. To me it felt like foreshadowing.

Castiel beating the crap out of Dean did feel like a send up to SS. Which I both liked because once again a connection to family and humanity saved the day and felt a little ookie about because it is just such an amazing moment that was based on Sam and Dean's incredible bond and I don't like to see that undercut in anyway. BUT I really don't think it does. Like Georgiagirl1967 said, Sam overcame the Devil because of his love for Dean. This was really more like Bobby or John overcoming a demon, still impressive sure but not the same as Sam's feat. And what was just as impressive about the SS scene is that Dean went there for no other reason but out of love for his brother. He didn't have any reason to hope, but he couldn't let Sam be there alone. But that was enough to defeat the Devil, it makes me tear up thinking about it.

But that was a nitpick it a fabulous episode. I loved it.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 11:26
OK, must have been my overall crappy mood last night; loved it the second time around this morning.

Looks like they've laid the groundwork for Castiel's return in S9. Very curious how this Crowley / Naomi thing is going to play out, and to get a little more on their backstory/histo ry. Clearly, Crowley has been around a lot longer than 400 or so years, at least in one form or another.

The ending with Goodbye Stranger playing was great; Cas on a bus to nowhere with the angel tablet. A great conversation in the car between Sam and Dean; they're in a much better place than they have been in a very long time. No anger, hostility, or bitterness at all. Night and day from the first 1/2 of S8.

Mentioned this in an earlier comment but it bugged me during the second go-round. Very sloppy of Sam to drop the bloody tissue in the garbage; he'd been very careful covering things up till now; just wondering if, on some level, Sam wanted Dean to find out what's really going on; Dean knew something was wrong, just not the extent of Sam's illness.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-21 11:31
i thought this was a great episode. i was sorry to see meg go. i totally saw the parallel with cas/meg and sam/ruby. it is possible for a demon to fall for a good guy, especially if that good guy has done bad things. i felt for meg..i would've liked her and cas to have a go at it before she died, which i thought was inevitable, as she was a demon and one on crowley's hit list.

i thought it bittersweet sam telling his story to meg. that's a conversation that he should've had with his brother. i find it a little sad that meg was the only character who ever took in an interest in sam's year off.

but, i also found it very thought provoking as well. i'm pretty sure a lot of you know where i stand when it comes to sam and his unaccounted for time. i've thrown theories and hints at you on previous posts supporting my belief that there is more to sam's story than what we are getting. last nite, my spidey senses started tingling again.

my biggest question of the night was, how come after 17 episodes did the writer bring up sam's year? nobody was interested before and it was brought up in an eppy with naomi, crowley and cas. all demons and hinky angels accounted for.

then there was sam's question, which was my question as well...after sam told meg his entire story about the sam/amelia debacle, meg had one question....it was the dog...sam hits a dog and then stops...that is the only element in sam's story that meg took notice of...she almost, imo, seemed suspicious. what i really took note of was that just when sam asked about her question, conveniently she hears something and guess who shows up.
then of course even more conveniently, meg gets killed. so if she did know something or suspect something, she is no longer around to tell sam about it.

i also found it quite interesting that sam withheld amelia's name..he spilled his guts about everything else, what's the difference what her name is?

after watching tonight's episode, i'm convinced even more that sam hitting that dog wasn't simply an accident.

again in this episode, mind manipulation playing a major role. and dogs again....this time a very specific dog and i'm not talking about crowley's hell hound either.

as for sam, i pretty much was convinced that he made sure that dean found out something was wrong. i get why sam couldn't say the words. you say it out loud and then it's true...so he kept what was wrong to himself...but that doesn't mean he didn't, in his own way, tell dean something was up. in rtt sam's speech at the end was a clear indication to dean that sam was afraid. and last nite, sam could've just crumpled his tissue and stuck it in his pocket...but he did not do that, he instead just threw his tissue, not even crumpled by the way, in a trash can, in the same room his brother was sitting in. he left it at the top of the pail...so it can be seen. so imo, sam was telling dean what was wrong in his actions, not his words.

and i have to agree that dean needs to take his own advice about lying. he's still lying to sam about benny. i'm sorry but dean did not come clean ..telling sam benny saved his life...he didn't say how or anything like that....but then, that's not the real lie anyway.....the real lie is the fact that dean let benny out of purgatory....th at's what he needs to come clean about with sam...otherwise as it stands now, dean is the pot calling the kettle black.
i get the feeling that dean will come clean once benny makes his return debut. either that or benny will spill the beans to sam. either way, my guess is sam will have his day to gripe, which he's due for imo anyway.... :lol:

again a well written episode...this was the first eppy in a long while where we go from x to z with the actual y (why)... i'm referring to the segue into sam and meg's conversation. first you have the scene with meg and cas....then you go into the scene with sam and meg....i thought it was brilliant writing bringing up her past possession of sam. it's true that she would know his inner most dreams. so her interest in sam's year made sense as well, along with her sympathy as she feels she's in the same kind of boat....so kudos for the scene making absolute sense.... now if only they would go back and do that for the first half of the season, which imo, is not that unlikely. ;D high hopes in tact folks....high hopes in tact :D
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 11:38
Nappi815 - agree with everything you said except the part about Sam not mentioning Amelia's name; I'm thinking he left that out to protect her.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-21 15:32
Quote:
and i have to agree that dean needs to take his own advice about lying. he's still lying to sam about benny. i'm sorry but dean did not come clean ..telling sam benny saved his life...he didn't say how or anything like that....but then, that's not the real lie anyway.....the real lie is the fact that dean let benny out of purgatory....that's what he needs to come clean about with sam...otherwise as it stands now, dean is the pot calling the kettle black.
I am in complete disagreement with your opinion.

I don't know how you've reached this conclusion, but Dean is not lying about Benny or Purgatory. Dean told Sam that Benny was the one who saved him from Purgatory. Sam also confirmed that he knows that Benny was the one who saved him from Purgatory. As Sam said to Dean during their discussion about Benny in Southern Comfort, "I know you had to do what you had to down there."

Sam knows what Dean had to do because Dean told him what he DID, and that Benny helped him escape Purgatory. So no, IMO Dean isn't the pot calling the kettle black here.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 16:25
Quote:
Quote:
and i have to agree that dean needs to take his own advice about lying. he's still lying to sam about benny. i'm sorry but dean did not come clean ..telling sam benny saved his life...he didn't say how or anything like that....but then, that's not the real lie anyway.....the real lie is the fact that dean let benny out of purgatory....that's what he needs to come clean about with sam...otherwise as it stands now, dean is the pot calling the kettle black.
I am in complete disagreement with your opinion.

I don't know how you've reached this conclusion, but Dean is not lying about Benny or Purgatory. Dean told Sam that Benny was the one who saved him from Purgatory. Sam also confirmed that he knows that Benny was the one who saved him from Purgatory. As Sam said to Dean during their discussion about Benny in Southern Comfort, "I know you had to do what you had to down there."

Sam knows what Dean had to do because Dean told him what he DID, and that Benny helped him escape Purgatory. So no, IMO Dean isn't the pot calling the kettle black here.
Chris_J,

I don't think it was an outright lie but, to be honest, Dean has been very evasive about the whole Purgatory / Benny thing. He never really explained how he got out; in Southern Comfort, when Garth asked him, Sam was all ears waiting for an explanation but Dean changed the topic.

Mentioned this earlier but I think this gets to the common theme of perception in S8; many fans like Benny because they saw him save Dean's life and prove himself on the battlefield. Sam never saw this, nor did Dean ever really explain this other than his brief comment that he saved his life. Also keep in mind that Dean was very evasive when he went off on his own to help Benny take down his old nest.

Not looking to pile on here, but IMO Dean's was a lie of omission.

In the back of my mind, I'm just wondering whether the reason Dean isn't telling Sam the whole Purgatory/Benny story is because, deep down, he knows something is fishy about the whole thing.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 16:30
But Sam and Dean spoke for about an hour or so in Bitten. The kids said they did. They said they were speaking about what they did during their year away from each other.

There's only so much Sam can say about the boring Amelia. He pretty much did nothing the past year. Dean very likely told Sam how Benny got him out of Purgatory. Even if Dean didn't give Sam the specifics, Sam knows what he needs to know: Benny helped Dean survive and escape Purgatory while Sam was going on picnics and running over dogs!

Dean has been honest w/Sam about Benny and Purgatory. What else can he tell Sam?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 16:50
Lala2,

Yes, but the problem is we never heard the conversation so we don't know what was said; you are making assumptions here; you could be right, could be wrong, I'm only going on their conversations on screen. I guess we can agree to disagree here.

You didn't find Dean evasive about Benny/Purgatory in the first half of the season?
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 17:18
NJSpnfan, yes, I found Dean evasive in the beginning. I don't remember much about the premiere but I don't think Dean told Sam anything about Benny.

However, if we're accusing Dean of lying to Sam, then I think Dean has said everything he needs to re: Benny and Purgatory. I don't feel he has lied to Sam about that situation. It seems like Dean told Sam the most important parts (i.e., that Benny helped him survive and escape). Someone quoted the dialogue above, so we know Sam knows that Benny helped Dean get out of Purgatory.

What else does Sam need to know? That Dean carried Benny in his arm? Is that what Dean is "lying" about? I'm not being sarcastic; I just honestly think Sam knows enough that Dean can't really be seen as "lying" to him but that's JMO.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-21 18:46
Quote:
NJSpnfan, yes, I found Dean evasive in the beginning. I don't remember much about the premiere but I don't think Dean told Sam anything about Benny.

However, if we're accusing Dean of lying to Sam, then I think Dean has said everything he needs to re: Benny and Purgatory. I don't feel he has lied to Sam about that situation. It seems like Dean told Sam the most important parts (i.e., that Benny helped him survive and escape). Someone quoted the dialogue above, so we know Sam knows that Benny helped Dean get out of Purgatory.

What else does Sam need to know? That Dean carried Benny in his arm? Is that what Dean is "lying" about? I'm not being sarcastic; I just honestly think Sam knows enough that Dean can't really be seen as "lying" to him but that's JMO.
yes lala, that's exactly what dean is lying about. sure benny helped dean out, which i believe he did for his own purpose...to get out...and dean carried benny out in his arm. that's a big deal...a very big deal....dean is making it all seem like benny is so wonderful but the truth is, if sam knew how benny really got out, then sam would question benny's motives in the first place. that's exactly, imo what dean doesn't want sam to do, which is why i totally believe dean hasn't told sam the entire truth....dean has told sam only the part that's supposed to make benny look good...because dean needs to believe benny is good. and this is one opinion, that i will never change....benny is bad news...and dean is now responsible for him...it's going to bite him in the ass one day..so agree to disagree on this point.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 20:15
Nappi, I'm not sure if Dean has told Sam much of anything about Benny. I think the extent of Sam's knowledge is that Benny helped Dean survive Purgatory and then they both escaped.

I feel the show has moved on from all of its earlier plots. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that is how it appears to me. I doubt we'll see Sam and Dean discussing the specifics of Dean's escape from Purgatory just like we'll probably never hear from Sam why he thought Dean was dead IF that's what he thought. The show appears to have moved on.

I also think the writers like Benny. They don't seem in a rush to explain him or expand the character. Will we even seem him again this season?

Benny is a non-issue, IMO. I've never had a problem w/Benny. I thought he might be Dean's "Ruby," but that's not how it played at all. In my eyes, Benny is a vampire just trying to make it. LOL! That's honestly how I feel. I don't consider him evil or bad.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-21 21:15
that's cool lala..but i just don't see benny that way at all. i don't trust him...from the moment i saw him..the way he just turned on his so called friend, murdering him and then telling dean he was his friend now....that screams to me that benny is bad bad news. he hasn't done one honest thing as far as i'm concerned. i still think he's the one who killed those people in citizen fang. it's always been my belief that martin was the only one who was the sane one in that ep, as shaky as he may have seemed. needless to say, i'm not on the benny bandwagon and never will be. no disrespect to you or the benny supporters. ;-) you say potato, i say french fries :D

as for dean, in my opinion he's telling sam half truths regarding benny to paint benny in a favorable light. the bit of information dean left out is the most important detail...it means everything...it 's the dealbreaker. dean's omission is just as big as sam's was, when he failed to mention to dean that while he was hunting lilith with ruby, he was also drinking demon blood to gain his strength..... different song, same record.

you know who else told half truths?

naomi
benny
zachariah
ruby
uriel
john winchester

they all told half truths in order to get the winchesters to do what they wanted....it's called manipulation.

whether consciously or not, dean is doing the same thing to sam now...he's trying to manipulate his way of thinking when it comes to benny....dean is keeping from sam the most important detail in dean's escape from purgatory...and if sam knew that bit of information, i believe with all of my heart and soul that he would confront dean and he would point out the obvious....that benny didn't help dean out of the goodness of his dead vampire heart, he helped dean so dean would help him get out of purgatory....be nny used dean and imo that's how sam would see it. it's all about misperception again...dean keeps saying that benny got him out...but in actuality, dean got benny out...literally ....benny just provided the info that was given to him.

anyhoo, enough about that .....


as for never getting the truth regarding sam, i'm not of that belief at this time. i have reason to be hopeful because of a spoiler i've seen. now it's just all based on my opinion, but this spoiler has me feeling on the optimistic side ....it might not do the same for others....it could be just me....but with all the clues i've seen this season, and the new info i've read, i just have this shimmer of hope inside me that some of us just might get what we've been hoping for. ;-) i believe i'll hold onto that for now.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 21:50
Nappi, that's cool :-) I do like Benny, but I'm not opposed to him turning out to be "bad" either. I can just say that he seems okay to me now. To be honest, he hasn't been shown enough for me to care either way. From what I was shown, I liked him and wouldn't mind him showing up from time-to-time. But they haven't developed him enough yet. I have no stake or investment in his ultimate "goodness." He could turn out to be bad, and that would be okay w/me too.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-21 23:33
Quote:
Nappi, that's cool :-) I do like Benny, but I'm not opposed to him turning out to be "bad" either. I can just say that he seems okay to me now. To be honest, he hasn't been shown enough for me to care either way. From what I was shown, I liked him and wouldn't mind him showing up from time-to-time. But they haven't developed him enough yet. I have no stake or investment in his ultimate "goodness." He could turn out to be bad, and that would be okay w/me too.
to be honest lala i think benny being bad is his only saving grace...i kind of find his character quite dull....who cares about a good vampire? i guess some do...but i find the nastier the villain, the more interesting they become.... that's one of the reasons i dig crowley and i hate to say it, but i loved watching mp play lucifer...he was deliciously evil. :lol:
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-22 21:14
lala2, I agree. I like Benny a lot. But I wouldn't be disappointed if he turned out to be bad or at least continuing to do bad things. And Nappi, I could be convinced that he killed those people in Citizen Fang. But honestly I don't think they had enough evidence either way. The other vampire could have been part of a new nest Benny was starting or Benny could have been telling the truth.

Benny is definitely one of those issues I wish the boys would just sit down and calmly discuss. Because Sam doesn't have any reason to trust him and Dean is asking him to. But Sam seems determined NOT to trust him and maybe if Dean knew why they could come to some reasonable outcome. Maybe he could even allay some of Sam's fears or Sam could convince he is not to be trusted. But since they both could win gold in obfuscating and bullheadness, I doubt that is going to happen any time soon.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-03-21 17:18
I think njspnfan's point is that Sam, at that stage, didn't know the details of how Dean got out of Purgatory, just that Benny got him out; no details of the how, or the why. And quite possibly no details about how he got Benny out.

Quote:
There's only so much Sam can say about the boring Amelia. He pretty much did nothing the past year. Dean very likely told Sam how Benny got him out of Purgatory. Even if Dean didn't give Sam the specifics, Sam knows what he needs to know: Benny helped Dean survive and escape Purgatory while Sam was going on picnics and running over dogs!
Then by the same regard there’s very little Dean can say about Purgatory, ‘We fought the whole time’. Shur, that’s about it, really. Everything else Sam had already been told.

And Sam did more with his year off than just run over dogs and have picnics. He tried to live an actual life for that year. He found love for that year. Okay, it might have been monumentally boring to some people (but let's face it, life is boring, but people still manage to fill the world with conversation about it) but I’m sure that Dean is interested enough in his brother and his brothers life to want to know what he did and how he got on.

And if people only told each other what they needed to know we'd be living in a world that would be pretty much devoid of conversation!
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 17:28
Tim, I don't disagree. Both conversations would be very brief, IMO.

"We fought." "We escaped."

"We fought or actually she bitched at me for no reason." "We bought a house." "We broke up."

Done. Neither conversation should last long, but Dean's would probably be infinitely more interesting than Sam's sorry tale.

And I can just never view Sam's time as "normal" as all that new and interesting for Sam when he did that for 3 1/2 years when he went off to college. For me, this is not interesting, new territory to explore w/Sam. Sam's lived normal before. I know others disagree b/c of YED, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Sam had normal and lost it. He had normal again and gave it up. It's just not riveting or intersting material IMO.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-03-21 18:12
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, lala2, but why? Why would Dean's side of the conversation be 'infinitely more interesting than Sam's sorry tale'? Obviously we can't cover all of Sam's year in detail (though I would like to know more about it, yes, even in relation to Amelia) but let's say Sam went to a concert, heard a good joke, met some cool people, or had a funny story etc, all during the course of his 'boring' year, I imagine that Dean would want to hear about it. And surely buying a house is something huge and exciting??

With Purgatory there's only so much you can tell because there’s a huge element of sameness with Purgatory. Dean had to do the same thing again and again. He interacted with very few people. We don't know how late in the game they found Castiel so unless there were towns or bars or real estate agents or some sort of social life there then there’s not really an awful lot you can say.

Also, at that stage Dean was hesitant to talk about both Benny and Castiel. It wasn't until 8.06 that Sam (via Garth) questioned him about how he got out so Dean certainly wasn't talking about it in that episode (8.04). And if he pulled that 'need to know' stuff with Sam then it's really no wonder that Sam is skeptical of Benny because that attitude has been what has put them and their relationship in the crapper.

Quote:
And I can just never view Sam's time as "normal" as all that new and interesting for Sam when he did that for 3 1/2 years when he went off to college.....
And ironically, if Sam's year off went the other direction, with him tearing apart heaven and hell looking for Dean that wouldn't be new or interesting either because it was done before.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 20:45
What can I say? Tim, for me, Dean's daily struggle to survive in a world/dimension surrounded by all kinds of monsters is infinitely more interesting - even in theory - than Sam's life w/Amelia. If I had to choose btw the two, I would rather hear Dean talk about his time in Purgatory, what he did to survive while there, and how he survived in there. Unlike others, I never thought we needed more Purgatory scenes b/c I do believe they would have become a little repetitive, but we definitely needed more on the PTSD front w/Dean. It was only shown for 1-2 episodes, and then they dropped it (i.e, the PTSD).

From what I saw, Sam's life w/Amelia was pretty normal and, ultimately, boring. If my life were a tv show, it would have been canceled by now. Haha! I lead a pretty normal, drama-free (YAY) life. In my eyes, nothing interesting happened w/Sam. If he had been suffering from severe depression or had suffered a mental breakdown, that would have been more interesting to me. If he had started drinking or obsessing over Dean's disappearance, I would have been more interested. If he had been tearing apart H&H looking for Dean, I definitely would have been more entertained. I was hoping Sam would hook up w/some new hunters in his search for Dean but that didn't happen. We just saw Sam and Amelia living life, and I gotta say I would have rather seen Dean's life - in spite of its eventual repetitiveness - in Purgatory than Sam's life topside w/Amelia.

When Sam would have an Amelia FB, my eyes literally glazed over. This is the first season where I actually flipped the channel a couple of times during Sam's FBs and the earlier episodes in general. I also found my mind drifting during the Sam FBs. I have watched soap operas before, and Sam's life w/Amelia wasn't even interesting on a soap opera level. It was all very boring. I have no desire to watch any of that again.

I feel - and this is just my opinion - that very little thought or interest was put into Sam's storyline. Carver didn't want him looking for Dean (which would have been in character and more interesting) so he stuck him in a very boring relationship. I think we were supposed to see them as clinging to each other because of their overwhelming grief but we didn't see that. If it had been more overt and clear . . . if they met drowning their sorrows in liquor . . . if Sam actually talked about Dean in the FBs instead of being Amelia's sounding board . . . if I saw grief or loss or something, the story would have been better. I'm not sure what they were going for but it failed for me - whatever it was.

The Amelia story was completely pointless, IMO. A complete waste of time.

And when I mentioned Sam having normal before - I was mostly speaking about those who have defended the story by saying it presented a new side to Sam or shed some light on his character. I don't agree w/that view. I feel Sam has had normal before with Jessica; others disagree. Ben/Lisa was new for Dean; it wasn't interesting or good, but it was new. Amelia or Sam being in a stable relationship for a sustained period of time was not new material. It also doesn't help that the story, itself, IMO, wasn't presented in an interesting or engaging way. I don't see this Amelia story as having done anything positive for "Sam." It's been quite the opposite actually. Carver's arc for Sam has really damaged the character. It is now canon - unless Carver retcons it - that Sam abandoned Dean when Dean needed him most. . . that he moved on w/o so much as a thought about Dean or what was happening to him. Supernatural is no longer the story of TWO brothers who would be willing to die for each other, but rather the story of what ONE brother is willing to do for the other. That kills me b/c I KNOW Sam would die for his brother. I KNOW Sam would investigate Dean's disappearance and Carver should be ashamed of himself of ruining Sam in this way! He thoroughly screwed over the character and either doesn't recognize that or doesn't care. It really doesn't matter which.

That's why much the first half (1-11) of this season will ALWAYS be OOC crap in m eyes.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 08:47
Lala, I just wanted to comment to say that your post expressed what I'm feeling about this season too.

I found Dean's Purgatory FB much more interesting than Sam's Amelia FB. I found Sam's love for Amelia's character inexplicable because the whole thing wasn't well written. And I particularly *hated* the writers deciding that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and also deciding that the brothers had decided they wouldn't look for each other should something happen to one of them - this idea fundamentally undermined one of the strengths and attractions of SPN for me: the strong bond and loyalty between Sam and Dean, and their willingness to do anything to save each other.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-22 11:37
Ciar, I also agree that Carver's made up rule about the boys not looking for each other undermines the basics of the show.

As you said, the strength of this show, IMO, is based in the lengths these two brothers would go for each other; it is in their willingness to literally DIE for each other. Why did Carver mess w/that? Why did he ruin it?

The Amelia story can't make up for what Carver did to Sam! We lost something but gained nothing. It's frustrating!
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-22 23:19
i agree with alot of what you said lala, but i have to disagree with you that sam abandoned dean when he needed him most.

as far as show is concerned, (not as far as i'm concerned because i still think sam did look before he convinced himself or was convinced that dean was dead,) sam believed his brother died. sam didn't know dean was alive and in purgatory and just decided to leave him there...that's not what happened at all.

abandonment is dean's issue. he's the one who always looks at it like people abandon him. but if you really think about it, sam wasn't the one who left dean....dean left sam. now i'm fully aware that it wasn't intentional, but let's really look at the way things happened.....sa m stayed, dean left. and it's not the first time dean left sam alone either....he's done it to him before in s3....but you never once heard from sam ....dean you abandoned me or you left me. no, this is dean's thing...and sam is always being punished because of this little issue of dean's.

do you think if it had been sam that disappeared and carver decided dean didn't look, that he believed sam dead and he did what he thought sam would want him to do, be normal, live safe, be happy, do you think sam would've come back and made dean feel like crap and accuse him of abandoning him?......imo, no freaking way....sam would never do that...sam has never done that ....sam doesn't look at people dying as abandoning him.

i've stated this before...especi ally after watching a little slice of kevin...all this resentment dean was carrying towards sam, i think it was more about him and what he was feeling. dean was the one who declared to cas that he didn't abandon him in purgatory. i don't know, it just seems to me dean was transferring his own guilt onto sam.

what i've noticed for the last 8 years is that dean has a tendency to see things the way he wants to see them, but that doesn't mean he's right.

do you realize that we're up to eppy 18 and dean still hasn't shown any interest at all in sam's year. he hasn 't asked sam anything about it, unlike sam who has shown an interest in his brother's time in purgatory.

you stated that this is a story about only one brother who'll do for another and that statement just boggles my mind. imo, sam has done more for dean than anyone ever has or ever will.

sam has died for his brother and he's willing to die again. why do you think he took over the trials? he did it because he wants his brother to live. he wants his brother to see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. there's more than just dying with a gun in his hand. you think sam doesn't love his brother? that he wouldn't do anything for him? sam has done anything for him. he's still doing anything for him. do you think there's anyone else who would take the burden of the trials away from dean? i don't think so. damn well better believe benny the vamp wouldnt' :P

now i think there's more to sam's story you know that...i believe he looked and either failed to find dean and thus convinced himself that dean was dead...a defense mechanism. i think that it's easier for sam to believe dean dead than to believe he's somewhere and he fails yet again to save him. he imploded and then he ran. that's why he was drawn to that atrocious amelia in the first place imo....he couldn't save his brother so maybe he can save her....i think it also explains why sam tells dean he thought he was dead in one instance and then in another he's not sure if he's off buying a taco somewhere....bu t mostly i think it explains sam's silence the whole first half of the season while dean griped incessantly about sam not looking and taking time off for a girl....i think sam would prefer dean's wrath rather than his disappointment. especially after the whole sc rant and benny is a better brother speech.

or....sam was looking for dean and started coming dangerously close to finding out about the tablets and someone did a bit of mind manipulation on sam, making him believe dean was dead. i'm leaning towards this simply because someone was spying on sam and sam knows more than someone who quit hunting should know.

here's one thing i'm sure of. sam loves dean. he's shown it in ways that no other can ever come close to doing. sam is such a strong character, but he isnt invincible. sam can break. dean is his touchstone and when dean isn't around, sam doesn't always handle things very well...this time was no different. the first time sam lost dean he ran right into ruby's arms...now sam ran again...only this time he was running from his life...his pain...his loss...and the very fact that he ended up hooking up with someone out of sheer desperation and the need to save someone screams out to me how negatively dean's loss affected sam and how truly broken he was. sam wasn't happy with amelia. she was the driftwood he was clinging on to so he wouldn't drown in his own pain. that pain which was caused by the loss of his brother.

i'm sorry but i don't and will never see sam in a negative light. i think sam winchester is an amazing, strong, loving, flawed character who loves dean more than he loves himself. and not carver nor anyone else can make sam anything less than perfect in my eyes.

gosh i needed to say that....,

so i guess we can just agree to disagree on that one point lala... i really hope my faith in the fact that i still believe there's more to come regarding sam and this mystery spy and all the other inconsistencies during the first half and some of the second half of the season, is justified and that show will redeem itself in your eyes. ;-)

i just want you to know that i do understand that it's the writing as leah pointed out that you are disappointed in...i do hope you don't see sam in a negative light, i hope you see him the same way i do....cuz he's looks mighty fine in my light. :lol:
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-22 23:34
Quote:


gosh i needed to say that....,
Thank you so much for saying that :-) You say it beautifully! And I agree with every bit of it.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-23 00:01
Yes nappi, wonderfully put. I will always think of Sam that way no matter what. I know lala's disappointment is in the writing ( and how it seemed to portray Sam in a bad light ) not Sam himself. We are all hoping, I think, that the inconsistancies can be explained. :-)
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-03-23 06:07
Thank you for this wondeful comment about Sam Winchester! You just made me really all teary and emotional in a positve way!

It is only so so sad that I need to read such beautiful posts about him and his love to his brother while in the episodes his POV is so much neglected. Missing important moments of Sam are cutted out and not shown, while the MAIN POV character is accusing and resenting him although because of his own faults and flaws. There is the big unbalance for me!

I still didn't watch the new episode of SPN because I read the reactions of fans, I would like to close my eyes and ears for a particular scene where Casstiel is involved and Dean. Maybe someone could tell me the exact start and end of this scene so I fast forward, because I don't want to witness it!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-23 12:31
I was reading Gerry Weaver's review at Blogcritics (same Gerry who comments here?) but the review brought up another concern.

If they are trying raise the status of Castiel since he is going to be a regular next year. (I don't think they can ever actually raise him to the status of Sam, regardless of what they do-and I'm not sure they are really trying) They've only succeeded strengthen his relationship with Dean and not with Sam at all. (this is not a criticism of this episode but of the overall status of Sam and Castiel relationship)

I truly believe the this is a huge problem going forward, I've mentioned this before in another thread but I really really really believe they need to develop the relationship between Sam and Cas, since he is going to be a regular. It makes no sense that the only secondary character only has a relationship with one of the leads. Especially since they should be able to relate in a way that Dean and Cas can't since Cas and Sam have both made huge mistakes while trying to save the world. I loved that scene in RiF between them. I don't know why we don't have more of those. It would definitely help my issues with Cas' character. I like him a lot but he does have at tendency to encroach on the Sam storyline and the Sam and Dean relationship. IE Dean talks to him and Sam talks to no one typically (although I he did talk to Meg in this episode and Sam and Dean have been talking A LOT more which is my favorite thing anyway :D )

On the practical side, if they don't increase the Sam and Cas scenes and instead continue to have Dean be the intermediary for all discussions. Then Jensen will have very few breaks in filming. And as a new father, I'm sure he'll need them.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-24 15:00
Deleted - Double Post
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-24 15:05
I believe we've discussed this before, Kelly, but I don't think there are any plans to expand the Sam/Castiel relationship. Castiel has been on the show since Season 4, and he and Sam still aren't friends.

In my eyes, they have a working relationship and that's it. They are not friends, and it doesn't seem like the writers are interested in making them friends. Sam tends to fade to the background when Castiel is around, and I expect for that trend to continue. Castiel and Dean share the "bond" and the "deep friendship." Dean is the one calling Castiel "brother" and "family." I doubt Sam feels that way about Castiel but who really knows since Sam rarely, if ever, voices his opinion.

This is why I want Sam to get a friend outside of Dean. If Dean has Sam and Castiel and Charlie and whoever, then Sam should have one other person besides Dean to talk to about his feelings, etc. But I know that is not likely to happen. Sam's only friend is Dean, and the writers seem determined to keep it that way.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 15:35
lala2, just because they haven't done it in the past doesn't mean they can't do it. I'll admit I don't see it happening this season but I do think it is a necessity moving forward. Of course, I am still hopeful that the extremely limited Sam POV this year is connected to a big reveal. While I think you pretty much lost hope in that. I'm choosing to be optimistic. :-)
E
# E 2013-03-24 19:00
Kelly, me too! me too! Just like Fox Mulder, I want to believe!
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 19:08
E, The Truth is Out There. :D
E
# E 2013-03-24 19:12
yes Kelly, yes it is.....
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-24 20:39
Kelly, that's true but you would agree that it's taking an awful long time to develop a relationship between them, right?

Castiel has been on the show since S4. It's been 4 years, and he and Sam are still just business associates. I thought Sam and Castiel could bond over Cas's turn to the dark side, but that didn't happen. It would have been nice to see Cas actually apologize to Sam for breaking his Wall when Sam was lucid and could understand him or to see them discussing the situation. That would have helped forge a real relationship btw the two, but the writers didn't go there.

I don't know. It just seems like Cas is Dean's "special" friend. I don't think the writers want Sam and Cas to be friends. If they did, then their friendship would be more clear.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 20:52
lala2, I agree. It is a mistake that it has taken this long. But I just don't see any reason that mistake can't be corrected in the future. The character have history and a background has already been established. They have a lot in common, really I can't think why it hasn't been done before.
E
# E 2013-03-23 10:56
Beautifully said! I couldn't agree with you more. ;-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-24 15:45
The problem, Nappi, is - as usual when it comes to Sam - the writers weren't clear about what Sam thought. Yes, Sam said he thought Dean was dead BUT he also said something about not knowing if Dean was dead or eating a taco two states over. Okay . . . so which is it? It can't be both. Did Sam think Dean was dead or didn't he? We don't know. It wasn't made clear.

And if Sam did think Dean was dead, why wasn't he a tad more excited when Dean reappeared? He honestly looked like he couldn't care less that Dean was back. The Season 8 reunion hug was the most lackluster hug the boys ever had, including the one in S6 w/SS.

And why didn't Sam answer Dean's question? Dean flat out asked Sam if Sam looked for him, and Sam doesn't say anything at all! If he thought Dean was dead, why wouldn't he say, "No, Dean, I didn't look for you. Don't you get it? I thought you were dead and in Heaven. Why would I look or try to pull you from that place? I just decided to move on w/my life." Oh no . . . Sam evaded the question completely, and then when Dean mentions a girl, Sam basically agrees that he hooked up w/some chick instead of looking for Dean.

I'm sorry but Dean had every right to be upset w/Sam. Sam made it clear that he didn't know what happened to Dean and that he didn't bother to investigate the situation or look into what happened. That's the problem. Why would Carver have Sam say and do this? It makes no sense. If Carver had Sam investigate and then get no intel or investigate and find out Dean's in Purgatory and there's no way to open the gate, then I would have been fine w/Sam moving on w/his life. But that's not what Carver wrote. Carver expects me to believe that Sam didn't even try to investigate Dean's disappearance, that he just took Dean's disappearance as an unexpected gift and went on to get the life he always wanted.

Nope. I don't buy it. I don't believe it. That is OOC crap. That is NOT how the Sam Winchester I've been watching for years would act! It just isn't. I choose to ignore the bad writing for Sam.

But that's me. Many won't. Many will take this season's actions as evidence that Sam doesn't love Dean as much as Dean loves Sam. You and I have seen it over on Supernatural.tv . And while I don't agree w/those who feel that way, I can't say I don't understand why they're reaching those conclusions. Carver's story didn't do "Sam" any favors. Under this story, one could logically conclude that Sam wouldn't go to the lengths Dean would. One could say that Dean loves Sam more than Sam loves Dean. That's my problem w/the story. I hate that it's not canon that Sam abandoned Dean in Dean's time of need. That sucks b/c it directly contradicts who Sam is. And the worst part is Carver doesn't see the problem! He trashed Sam for no reason.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-22 10:27
Quote:
I think njspnfan's point is that Sam, at that stage, didn't know the details of how Dean got out of Purgatory, just that Benny got him out; no details of the how, or the why. And quite possibly no details about how he got Benny out.

Quote:
There's only so much Sam can say about the boring Amelia. He pretty much did nothing the past year. Dean very likely told Sam how Benny got him out of Purgatory. Even if Dean didn't give Sam the specifics, Sam knows what he needs to know: Benny helped Dean survive and escape Purgatory while Sam was going on picnics and running over dogs!
Then by the same regard there’s very little Dean can say about Purgatory, ‘We fought the whole time’. Shur, that’s about it, really. Everything else Sam had already been told.

And Sam did more with his year off than just run over dogs and have picnics. He tried to live an actual life for that year. He found love for that year. Okay, it might have been monumentally boring to some people (but let's face it, life is boring, but people still manage to fill the world with conversation about it) but I’m sure that Dean is interested enough in his brother and his brothers life to want to know what he did and how he got on.

And if people only told each other what they needed to know we'd be living in a world that would be pretty much devoid of conversation!
Tim the Enchanter,

Thanks for sticking up for me :-) I just think that we're not getting the whole story here; don't know if they're going to address this, or if it will play in to the storyline down the road. As a hunter, Dean would have been suspicious of the circumstances of Benny showing up AND knowing a way out of purgatory and that's why Sam only got part of the story. I'm not questioning whether Benny was a good comrade to Dean while in purgatory, it's just that he was acting in his own self-interest and that was to keep Dean alive so he could hitch a ride out of Purgatory. (just as Meg acted out of self preservation and her hatred of Crowley in S7/S8 to help out the Winchesters and Cas).

IMO Sam's flashbacks were pointless because you never got any real insight as to what happened to him during that year. Yes, his world imploded, he ran, hit a dog, met a snarky vet but the writers did a poor job of showing this. Then again, IMO the whole Dean/Lisa/Ben thing wasn't that interesting either so maybe the writers have trouble writing this kind of relationship stuff. Contrast that to Dean's purgatory flashbacks which were very well written and well done. As with Dean, we're not getting the whole story of what happened with Sam, Don's sudden reappearance at about the same time Dean got out of purgatory, the mystery person outside of Sam and Amelia's house when he left the last time, etc.

In S6, when Soulless Sam was hunting with the Campbells and they were capturing monsters for interrogation, Soulless Sam never questioned this but Dean immediately knew something was fishy and asked where are they taking the monsters and why are they torturing them?

Also keep in mind that it took almost all of S6 to get the truth and find out that it was Cas who got Sam out of Lucifer's cage and "raised him from perdition'.

So, after this rather long ramble, my point is I hope we find out a more about this. Inquiring minds want to know.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-22 11:44
Quote:
As with Dean, we're not getting the whole story of what happened with Sam,
But what more is there to get? With either story?

I guess I just have no faith in the writers b/c I don't expect more for either story. When I think about the earlier stories, this old song comes to mind: What you see is what you get.

I'd love more insight but I'm not expecting to get any. Anyway, that's JMO.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-22 16:30
i understand both your frustration and lack of faith in the writers. i had moments where i felt the same way. but i've been really paying close attention this year and it's different from the previous years. s1-7 may have had it's moments of sheer frustration when it came to the writing for the boys, but for the most part, i never had a problem understanding exactly what was going on. it was always made pretty clear...sometim es with sam i had to guess, but i never really felt it was a far stretch to understanding sam...it's always been quite easy for me.

this season is totally different from every other season imo. the writing this season has been deliberately ambiguous. the inconsistencies have been blatant. the clues have been obvious. carver said that this season was based on perception. from what i've seen so far, nothing has been obvious in the writing at all this season...only sam/dean's love. sam supposedly not looking isn't all that black and white obvious to me. sam has told dean two different things on two different occasions. what it comes down to is ...i'm not sure sam didn't not look...i'm under the impression he actually did...see what i mean, the way sam is being written it can be either. but i feel with all the other inconsistencies and clues it's leaning more like he really did look. this isn't the only time either...sam has been written in such a way that makes you wonder if something is up with him. sam hasn't been able to answer simple questions asked by dean. sam knows things one would'nt know if he'd not been hunting for a year. people are spying on him. lots of coincidences too. and it's not only with sam's character either. other characters have also been written in the same manner. like benny. a lot of people think he's good. i totally believe he's bad news. it's the way he's written...that both of are perfectly understandable assumptions.

this whole entire season has a double entendre feel to it. there hasn't been one episode this season told in a straight black and white fashion. every episode poses another question. i've just gone through all the seasons and no other season has ever been written this way . that alone leads me to believe that what we think we are seeing isn't necessarily what we are actually seeing.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-22 13:30
For me, the Dean/Benny situation parallels the Sam/Ruby one in season 4. The big difference is that the audience has seen Dean's side of the story when in season 4 we did not see Sam's. Here are the ways I see the parallels

1) Dean escapes Purgatory, but it seems he doesn't mention Benny because Sam didn't know Benny was a vampire until he shook his hand in Blood Brothers. People have mentioned that the kids heard Sam and Dean talking for hours about the previous year, since Bitten is before Blood Brothers I conclude that Dean didn't mention that he escaped with anyone, let alone a dead vampire that he then resurrected. As a parallel in season 4 Sam is hunting and passes Ruby off as a ONS. Dean knows Sam has kept hunting but knows none of the details. Sam finds out about Benny, but AFAIK

2) Sam finds out about Benny but Dean gives no details about the escaped. The conversation on Benny in SC
Quote:
SAM
I don't know, Dean. How about because you haven't said a word to me since Prentiss Island? And now, what? You want me to shut up and ride shotgun and act like nothing happened?

DEAN
You want to talk about Benny? Fine. Let's talk.

SAM
Okay. How about he's a vampire?

DEAN
He's also the reason I'm topside and not roasting on a spit in Purgatory. Anything else?

SAM
Don't pretend I don't get it. I know you had to do what you had to down there.

DEAN
I highly doubt you get anything about Purgatory.

SAM
But you're out now, and Benny's still breathing. Why?

DEAN
He's my friend, Sam.
From this conversation we KNOW that from the second Sam met Benny Dean has not spoken, at all. The only information Dean gives Sam is that 1) Dean believes he would still be in Purgatory without Benny and 2) that he considers Benny a friend. WE have seen what happened in Purgatory, but Sam has no idea how or why Benny helped Dean get out. Whatever they talked about in that conversation in Bitten, it wasn't Benny the vampire or how Dean got out of Purgatory. This is underlined when Garth asks Dean how he got out of Purgatory in this same episode again the transcript
Quote:
GARTH
So how'd you get out?

SAM makes a show of looking at DEAN. DEAN looks around at a Confederate flag on the wall.


DEAN
What's up with all the, uh, hillbilly hankies? These people know the Civil War's over, right?
This leads me to the conclusion that Sam wants the answer to that question as much as Garth does and Dean isn't telling.

This parallels when Dean discovers Sam using his powers and working with Ruby. Sam tell him that Ruby is training him to use his powers to exorcise the demons and save the hosts, but leaves out the blood drinking.

I have seen lots of criticism of about how Sam was lying to Dean in season 4, but season 8 Dean is behaving about Benny pretty well the same way Sam did about Ruby. For me, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If we count Sam withholding information from Dean as lying, then Dean withholding information from Sam is also lying, IMHO, and in very similar ways.
Ale
# Ale 2013-03-22 13:50
It's not only about Benny, Dean would have to explain that he failed Cas (the way he saw it). I don't think he was prepared for it.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-23 19:51
I think Sam's glance at Dean was to see exactly how Dean was going to explain to another hunter why he has befriended a vampire.

Because if Sam still wants to know more information about how Dean escaped Purgatory, all he has to do is ask Dean one night as they're hanging out in the Batcave. Easy enough.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-23 22:40
actually it's not that easy. sam has tried on more than one occasion to get dean to talk about purgatory and he aint talkin. sam knows dean well enough to know when to back down. he'll wait for dean to open up about it. he's done that before...when sam didn't press dean about what alistair said about dean having such potential...sam was curious...he wanted to know...but sam told dean that he knew he wasn't talking about hell and he didn't want to press him.

that could change though if a situation arises in which sam and dean are at odds again regarding benny....then i could see sam wanting, even demanding answers from dean about purgatory. personally, i think at some point sam is going to finally ask dean why he's keeping benny such a secret.

jmo of course.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-03-24 15:48
Quote:
actually it's not that easy. sam has tried on more than one occasion to get dean to talk about purgatory and he aint talkin. sam knows dean well enough to know when to back down.
Since Southern Comfort? When exactly did Sam ask Dean to talk about Purgatory since then?
E
# E 2013-03-24 11:30
Quoting nappi: Quote:
and i have to agree that dean needs to take his own advice about lying. he's still lying to sam about benny. i'm sorry but dean did not come clean ..telling sam benny saved his life...he didn't say how or anything like that....but then, that's not the real lie anyway.....the real lie is the fact that dean let benny out of purgatory....that's what he needs to come clean about with sam...otherwise as it stands now, dean is the pot calling the kettle black.
i get the feeling that dean will come clean once benny makes his return debut. either that or benny will spill the beans to sam. either way, my guess is sam will have his day to gripe, which he's due for imo anyway....
Once again we think alike! I am in agreement with you almost as much as I agree with Kelly! and I agree very strongly with this as well. Not only did Dean agree to ferry Benny out of purgatory, he actually revived him using a spell given to him by Benny. To me that's a pretty big deal, and something as Dean's hunting partner and brother that Sam deserves to know.

I think it was you who said in another post that Benny's only redeeming feature will be if he is in fact a villain; (was that you?) If so, I agree with that too. How totally lame will the entire purgatory story become if Benny is the most special, glittery, heart of gold vampire who only wanted to live and help Dean and be the first vegan vampire in the history of the world? Ugh, and yuck; it doesn't even make any sense given what is going on in the rest of the show. In order to make the whole situation even remotely compelling or relevant to the current plot lines is to have Benny be at the very least manipulating Dean or more satisfyingly working with Naomi, Crowley or the Alpha Vamp (are we going to see him this year?) and against the brothers. His character makes no sense otherwise. Now, I like Benny, I really do, but I don't want him to be "good" just for the sake of fan service and because he's popular. His character must have a larger purpose that is relevant to the show, and it makes more sense the way things currently stand for him to be working against the boys.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-21 13:48
Nobody to my knowledge has mentioned Dean's "winner, winner chicken dinner" comment after he opened the crypt.

I thought that was funny, but didn't know if it was a pop culture reference.

Anybody know?
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-21 14:30
Quote:
Nobody to my knowledge has mentioned Dean's "winner, winner chicken dinner" comment after he opened the crypt.

I thought that was funny, but didn't know if it was a pop culture reference.

Anybody know?
It's an old Las Vegas term; years ago, you could get a chicken dinner in Las Vegas for $1.79; the standard bet at the time was $2.00 so, if you won, you won enough to buy a chicken dinner.

Crap... I feel old for knowing this.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-03-21 21:47
Wow, I did not know that's where the term came from. I use this phrase all the time, actually.
Teresa
# Teresa 2013-03-21 22:23
I didn't know this...but I've never gambled...
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-03-21 14:58
Quote:
Nobody to my knowledge has mentioned Dean's "winner, winner chicken dinner" comment after he opened the crypt.

I thought that was funny, but didn't know if it was a pop culture reference.

Anybody know?
I loved that line, too. I don't think there was a cultural reference intended...just a Deanism like in the earlier episodes. It's like the "What you're trying to do is chase Slicy McHackey here...." and the "Oh, hiya, Doc. Wakey, wakey, eggs and bac-y" from Time is On My Side. I've missed those.

ETA: I didn't know that njspnfan. Funny. But I still miss these kinds of Deanisms.
Teresa Pezzino
# Teresa Pezzino 2013-03-23 19:59
The chicken dinner stuff seems to be a hunter thing. Martin used it back in the day and Dean used it with Sam in S6 about Cas - "You actually showed! Well Sam, guess I owe you a chicken dinner".
racestaffer unlogged
# racestaffer unlogged 2013-03-25 23:46
Thanks for that!!! Maybe I'll look up the contexts sometime. I was already wondering if the phrase was "hunter-speak" even without remembering the other instances. But, at risk of alienating rabid Dean-girls, all I've come up with so far is a possible connection to the opening of the episode. I can't help but wonder if the Team was trying to communicate something visually with all the dead Deans. Unfortunately, all that has come to mind so far is the saying, "a coward dies a thousand deaths..." Coward... Chicken?

Oooh... In looking that up mid-post (LOL), I see it's an erroneous "quote" from Julius Caesar. So add that to Portia and "lend me your ears." Wow, they're really pushing allusions to Julius Caesar!

But that doesn't help much with "chicken dinner." I wonder if it could be some sort of "Sandman" reference in hunter-speak... a la Colonel Sanders or something?
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-03-21 15:27
I loved that Naomi did all that training to condition Cass to kill Dean; but when it came to the REAL Dean, he couldn't do it.

It SUCKS that they killed Meg. I kept hoping she would disappear; or Cass would come save her. But I missed Misha's teaser. Where was that????
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 16:46
Yeah . . . I looked to my sister and said, "Why doesn't she just blow out of that body?"
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-21 17:14
They never said, but when she possessed Sam, Meg branded Sam so that she couldn't be exorcised. She may have done that here, preferring to be dead than sent back to Hell. But that's just my guess.
lala2
# lala2 2013-03-21 17:37
Good point, Percy!
E
# E 2013-03-22 09:35
I also think she was trying to buy Sam and Dean some time, so she stayed in her body to keep Crowley occupied knowing what that would mean for her..... basically it's why people are saying that she has kind of redeemed herself.. it was a sacrifice.
Lloyd
# Lloyd 2013-03-21 16:33
I think that if Crowley isn't a demon, then it gives the show somewhere to go for season 9, which I've been wondering about lately. Because if they close the gates of hell and send all the demons back (or kill them, I'm not really clear on what happens when they close), what's left for the show? But if Crowley isn't from Hell then he'll still be around and season 9 could be fighting Crowley or whatever he is...
elle
# elle 2013-03-23 20:29
Just speculation, but I've been thinking about this myself. If they close the gates, then maybe they'll spend season nine cleaning up the left overs that got stuck on earth?

Also - and maybe this is just my crazy mind - but didn't we learn somewhere along the way that a few of the original demons were the angels that chose to follow along with Lucifer when he left? Am I misremembering?
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-21 16:46
Just a random thought but what is up with Cas taking public transportation? Can he not zap to anywhere? Was there a point I missed somewhere that accounts for that?
Jean
# Jean 2013-03-22 03:30
I thought that was because he needed to stay under the radar, maybe zapping somewhere makes it easier for other more powerful angels to kind of sense a "disturbance in the force"?
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-21 18:13
Loved your review. Loved this episode. I couldn't take my eyes off the tv. Time just rushed by for me.

I think we are coming closer to a reveal about what Sam did after Dean vanished, because it seems to get mysteriouser and mysteriouser! Thanks to Meg. I know some of you are holding absolutely firm on us never finding out any more than we already know - but I still have hope. More hope now that Meg said that about the dog.

And Sam being damaged in ways Cas couldn't heal. Sniff. But then S&D talked about it!!!

Loved all of your bullet points. I was LMAO. This was my favorite episode of the season. Although I have only seen it once.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-03-21 21:33
i agree. as i've stated above, i find that the very fact that sam's year was brought up at all very telling. i mean, nobody has asked sam about his year, now all of a sudden meg does. then meg seems a bit confused when sam says he hit a dog and stopped. i watched it over again a couple of times, rewinding her scene. it occurred to me that her question can be perceived three different ways. you hit a dog and stopped? stopped what, stopped hunting? stopped to check the dog? or maybe it's the way i perceived her reaction? you hit a dog and stopped, why? that could mean, as i perceive it to mean, "why did you hit the dog"? the very fact that she even asked that question seems to suggest something more. i mean seriously, the conversation did not have to include that question, she could've just segued into her speil about how he found his unicorn and that would've been it. not to mention the very fact that sam asked meg why that was the particular detail that stood out for her....and before she can respond....demo ns show up. they show up just in the nick of time too because meg might have actually got to answer sam's question....and then, crowley arrives., he also conveniently kills meg so if she did have anything to say to sam, she ain't sayin it now. another happy coincidence on my favorite show.

i think this is just another in a long list of hints we've gotten this season. i'm not of the belief that it was just the writer teasing the audience, what for anyway? i just don't think these writers go out of their way to leave what have been obvious hints just to play with the fandom's heads ......i still think the writers are giving us clues so that upon a reveal, it will seem natural and more believable and not just a retcon, because if we rewatch and pay close attention, we'll see that we've been getting hints all along.

that's just me of course.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-21 19:05
I've had a chance to think about Crowley and I agree he's much more powerful than we realised... but I'm not sold on him being a fallen angel. I mean everyone knew about Lucifer... it is a huge deal for an angel to go to hell, isn't it? How could it be such a secret for all these years?

I think it's more likely that he's just a much older demon than we realised and he has alliances in heaven. He was biding his time until the other powerful players were out of the way. How this came about, and why, is definitely mysterious.

I'm also not phased about the Fergus issue... I think that he was probably just a cover story for Crowley. I mean, we know something is not quite right there because he didn't die when Fergus' bones were burned. At the time, I thought Cass just burned someone else's bones. But maybe not.

It is very intriguing that Crowley and Naomi know one another... and can I say it again... I just love Jeremy Carver's vision for this season. I can't wait to see where he takes us next :-)
magichappening
# magichappening 2013-03-21 21:14
Thanks Ardeopsina and commenters above galore! I've been reading them for so long, that if I refresh the page I just know there are going to be a hundred more. So thought I would comment quickly!

Meg: ‘Shut up, Meg’ – ha! This was actually the first episode she didn’t annoy the crap out of me in her new body. Her face when she told Sam she ‘got it’ actually touched me. But the things she has done to Sam and Dean and those they love in the past...now I know she has been helping protect the Winchesters and Co. since last year, but she admitted it was out of self-preservati on as Crowley was killing Lucifer’s people. She did help with the Leviathans, but on balance, I think it is fair to quote Meg herself, ‘Hi, I’m Meg. I’m a demon’.

Crowley: For my part, I don’t think Crowley’s an angel, I have to say. If he was, wouldn’t at least one of the various demons, creatures and angels he has come across said SOMETHING about that? But demons do switch vessels all the time. Who’s to say he didn’t have one in Mesopotamia before he settled on the current one? And I agree with st50. Crowley is better in small doses. *ducks*

Metatron: I shall always think of Metatron looking like Alan Rickman. Any Dogma fans in the house?

Castiel: OK, my crazy theory of the week? I think the tablet made Castiel human and a prophet. There, I’ve said it! It definitely changed him, as the demon tablet changed Kevin. It lit up when he took it and he was hanging on to it like Kevin did. Maybe Cas used his last bit of mojo zapping out of there. And then he was travelling by bus. Why? OK I guess it could be to not alert angels. But if he were still an angel wouldn’t they be able to find him anyway?

Subatomic level: Ooh I do like your ‘Sam coughing up demon blood theory’.

Dead Deans in teaser: Total shock. I think that was one of the few times I’ve ever gasped out loud BEFORE the title card. *shiver*

Lucifer crypts – Agreed. What crypts? Which crypts? Why crypts?

Angel warded box: Put the tablet back in the box! Such a good point, Ardeospina! I didn’t think of that but I WAS sitting there thinking ‘Dude. It’s warded AGAINST angels. Think about it. Taking it out may NOT be the best plan’.

Cas and Dean fight: The first time I watched it, the end annoyed me as it was way too similar to Swan Song for me, and I felt it undermined the whole pivotal point of the world being saved by the bond between two brothers. On rewatch, I didn’t mind it as much. Jensen always kills me with emotional scenes. Still feel like it was disrespectful of Swan Song and Sam’s sacrifice, though.

Porn: I had the same thought as some of the commenters above on the distasteful, overdone joke. Not funny, male writers. Move on.

Happy ending: I think the Js talked about going out in a blaze of glory before Sam and Dean had each gone out in a blaze of glory. Several times! My (current) ideal ending is for Heaven and Hell both have their gates closed (so that souls can only ENTER them, rather than exit) and the Winchesters be left with only the run-of-the-mill monsters. Sam could become a uni lecturer or researcher or do a PhD (!) and be an MOL. Dean could open a restaurant or a bar or a classic car place and maybe be a hunter guru type person. They could be left some old rambling property by Bobby (legal stuff thus far has kept it hidden, you understand) and they could both live there with their partners (sorry, I’m still in the Kumbaya Singing Group!) and Cas could live there if need be and an assortment of various hunters or MOL could be staying at any given time. Yup, totally cliché, but I am firmly on the depressing is not good’ team!
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-03-22 09:07
Quote:
Thanks Ardeopsina and commenters above galore! I've been reading them for so long, that if I refresh the page I just know there are going to be a hundred more. So thought I would comment quickly!

Meg: ‘Shut up, Meg’ – ha! This was actually the first episode she didn’t annoy the crap out of me in her new body. Her face when she told Sam she ‘got it’ actually touched me. But the things she has done to Sam and Dean and those they love in the past...now I know she has been helping protect the Winchesters and Co. since last year, but she admitted it was out of self-preservation as Crowley was killing Lucifer’s people. She did help with the Leviathans, but on balance, I think it is fair to quote Meg herself, ‘Hi, I’m Meg. I’m a demon’.

Crowley: For my part, I don’t think Crowley’s an angel, I have to say. If he was, wouldn’t at least one of the various demons, creatures and angels he has come across said SOMETHING about that? But demons do switch vessels all the time. Who’s to say he didn’t have one in Mesopotamia before he settled on the current one? And I agree with st50. Crowley is better in small doses. *ducks*

Metatron: I shall always think of Metatron looking like Alan Rickman. Any Dogma fans in the house?

Castiel: OK, my crazy theory of the week? I think the tablet made Castiel human and a prophet. There, I’ve said it! It definitely changed him, as the demon tablet changed Kevin. It lit up when he took it and he was hanging on to it like Kevin did. Maybe Cas used his last bit of mojo zapping out of there. And then he was travelling by bus. Why? OK I guess it could be to not alert angels. But if he were still an angel wouldn’t they be able to find him anyway?

Subatomic level: Ooh I do like your ‘Sam coughing up demon blood theory’.

Dead Deans in teaser: Total shock. I think that was one of the few times I’ve ever gasped out loud BEFORE the title card. *shiver*

Lucifer crypts – Agreed. What crypts? Which crypts? Why crypts?

Angel warded box: Put the tablet back in the box! Such a good point, Ardeospina! I didn’t think of that but I WAS sitting there thinking ‘Dude. It’s warded AGAINST angels. Think about it. Taking it out may NOT be the best plan’.

Cas and Dean fight: The first time I watched it, the end annoyed me as it was way too similar to Swan Song for me, and I felt it undermined the whole pivotal point of the world being saved by the bond between two brothers. On rewatch, I didn’t mind it as much. Jensen always kills me with emotional scenes. Still feel like it was disrespectful of Swan Song and Sam’s sacrifice, though.

Porn: I had the same thought as some of the commenters above on the distasteful, overdone joke. Not funny, male writers. Move on.

Happy ending: I think the Js talked about going out in a blaze of glory before Sam and Dean had each gone out in a blaze of glory. Several times! My (current) ideal ending is for Heaven and Hell both have their gates closed (so that souls can only ENTER them, rather than exit) and the Winchesters be left with only the run-of-the-mill monsters. Sam could become a uni lecturer or researcher or do a PhD (!) and be an MOL. Dean could open a restaurant or a bar or a classic car place and maybe be a hunter guru type person. They could be left some old rambling property by Bobby (legal stuff thus far has kept it hidden, you understand) and they could both live there with their partners (sorry, I’m still in the Kumbaya Singing Group!) and Cas could live there if need be and an assortment of various hunters or MOL could be staying at any given time. Yup, totally cliché, but I am firmly on the depressing is not good’ team!

NOOOOOO! Do not make Cas human. That would be the worst thing that could happen. I do want him to be the bad guy and to pay the price for the bad things he's done to Sam and Dean and the angels he killed and all the people he killed.
And taking on Sam's hell didn't cut it for me. He didn't suffer as much as Sam did so it's not even comparable.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-03-22 10:35
I think Cas is still an angel but another thought just occurred; everyone is assuming that since, Sam is handling the trials to close the gates of Hell, Dean will handle the angel tablet duty in S9. What if it turns out that Cas will be take on the trials of the angel tablet? I know all of the Dean fans out there would be pissed off but it would make for an interesting twist in the story.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-03-22 12:50
How I feel about this will totally depend on what the angel tablets do. If they do what we think and seal the angels in heaven and destroys them or their way of life, I will have trouble with Cas performing the tasks.

The angels weren't nice guys during seasons four and five, but that was mostly due to management who had a specific notion of what should happen to humanity. In season seven, Raphael wanted to restart the Apocalypse, but again that was mostly on Raphael. Gabriel played with people for his own entertainment. For the most part, with the exception of the Archangels, all of whom are dead or missing, the angels left humanity completely and utterly alone. They spent thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years letting people just live their lives, hurting no one.

And then there is Cas, who killed half the angels because they didn't agree with him. I like Dean, I like humanity. If I went crazy and killed half the world and then I found a way to imprison the rest of it, I would be a monster, even if I had been convinced by a brave, good looking member of a different species who had become my friend and who was working to protect HIS species from the attacks of our armies and who had won the war. Most of the angels have been like Hester, and Samandriel foot soldiers in a war they didn't start and not doing anything to the majority of humanity. So if Cas suddenly decides to destroy his own race by doing the angel trials, I will not see him as a good guy. I will see him as a race traitor and he will be despicable to me.

Now, if the angel tablet makes life good and wonderful for the angels, then it won't bother me, but Cas has already damaged his people enough. I can't root for or want him to damage them further, especially because on the grand scale, they aren't doing anything against humanity at this time. Being dicks does not warrant exile, or extinction.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-23 07:08
Percy
I am beginning to think that heaven and hell aren’t constructed as we imagine it to be. Just bare with me as I shove my thinky thoughts through my fingers but be warned I only have questions!!.

When you look at Naomi and Crowley, clearly there is some ‘procreativeâ €™ (for want of a better word) history between them from Mesopotamia days. Now there must have been a time before Lucifer fell when all supernatural beings such as Naomi and Crowley were on the same page (not enemies), which explains the Naomi/Crowley hookup. This suggests a time before, when hell didn’t exist and angels and demons weren’t enemies. It is reasonable to assume then, that heaven was conceptually different to how it is being portrayed too. Maybe Naomi and Crowley are from a period when they were neither angel nor demon? If this is so then this seriously brings into question the angel and demon tablets.

I am just trying to piece together the heaven/earth/he ll history aspect and the creation of the angel and demon tablets. We need to look at why there are both angel and demon tablets. Did one ‘being’ make both tablets? If so why were they trying to save both heaven and hell. Maybe the same ‘being’ didn’t make both tablets. What possible reason would whoever made the tablets have to protect BOTH heaven and hell!! ?

We know that both tablets are written in Enochian and they look the same, i.e. they are carved from the same rock. We also know that something happened long ago to separate these tablets so that Lucifer was protecting the demon tablet and left it on earth in a crypt (clearly hell couldn’t be trusted with it?) I totally forget now who had the angel tablet and where it was located but I know it must have also been on earth somewhere (clearly heaven couldn’t be trusted with it). So what the crod does this all mean.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-23 07:16
Percy
I am beginning to think that heaven and hell aren’t constructed as we imagine it to be. Just bare with me as I shove my thinky thoughts through my fingers but be warned I only have questions!!.

When you look at Naomi and Crowley, clearly there is some ‘procreativeâ €™ (for want of a better word) history between them from Mesopotamia days. Now there must have been a time before Lucifer fell when all supernatural beings such as Naomi and Crowley were on the same page (not enemies), which explains the Naomi/Crowley hookup. This suggests a time before, when hell didn’t exist and angels and demons weren’t enemies. It is reasonable to assume then, that heaven was conceptually different to how it is being portrayed too. Maybe Naomi and Crowley are from a period when they were neither angel nor demon? If this is so then this seriously brings into question the angel and demon tablets.

I am just trying to piece together the heaven/earth/he ll history aspect and the creation of the angel and demon tablets. We need to look at why there are both angel and demon tablets. Did one ‘being’ make both tablets? If so why were they trying to save both heaven and hell. Maybe the same ‘being’ didn’t make both tablets. What possible reason would whoever made the tablets have to protect BOTH heaven and hell!! ?

We know that both tablets are written in Enochian and they look the same, i.e. they are carved from the same rock. We also know that something happened long ago to separate these tablets so that Lucifer was protecting the demon tablet and left it on earth in a crypt (clearly hell couldn’t be trusted with it?) I totally forget now who had the angel tablet and where it was located but I know it must have also been on earth somewhere (clearly heaven couldn’t be trusted with it). So what the crod does this all mean.
Super
# Super 2013-03-23 07:59
Hi kaz1,

Quote:
Lucifer was protecting the demon tablet and left it on earth in a crypt (clearly hell couldn’t be trusted with it?) I totally forget now who had the angel tablet and where it was located but I know it must have also been on earth somewhere (clearly heaven couldn’t be trusted with it). So what the crod does this all mean.
A really cool pondering you had :) But one correction. Lucifer had the angel tablet, he (or his demon knights) hid it in his crypt. The one Dean and Cas went to retrieve, from the angel guarded box?

So, Lucy had the angel tablet. What I'm wondering is, does that mean that the angels had the demon tablet? And if so, how did Crowley get his hands on it? That piece of information hasn't been answered (yet?). Or maybe the demons had the demon tablet all along, or maybe Lucy stole all the tablets once he started his plans to rebel and hid them all in different places? Hmm... thinky...

But it is intriguing that Lucifer had the angel tablet. And it is intriguing to guess why they were made. Maybe God created them so that if demons (or angels)would get the upper hand on his pets (humanity), that there would be a way to repel them back to their original home (heaven & hell).

Hmm... this season does raise a lot of thinky thoughts, even if it makes you bang your head against a wall sometimes :)
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-23 08:54
Super
oops you so right. What I am trying to figure out is why both tablets were created. Clearly something must have happened long ago that needed to protect both heaven and hell, but from what? Were the tablets made simultaneously by one 'being' or were they created separately. I cannot imagine a scenario where both tablets were necessary. There must be something else to protect heaven and hell from it seems to me IMO. What do you think?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-23 09:01
Super
What I am getting at is this. It looks like there is either a 'place or force' that needs protecting. If the tablets are instructions to close the gates of heaven and/or hell, then surely this is because they (heave/hell) are a danger to something. Or it might even be perceived to be instructions to close the gates in order to protect what is inside?
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-22 19:48
Quote:


NOOOOOO! Do not make Cas human. That would be the worst thing that could happen. I do want him to be the bad guy and to pay the price for the bad things he's done to Sam and Dean and the angels he killed and all the people he killed.
And taking on Sam's hell didn't cut it for me. He didn't suffer as much as Sam did so it's not even comparable.
I am in agreement with you Jo, I would like to see Castiel pay for the bad things he's done to Sam and Dean. Sam paid for his S4 mistake when Dean stop trusting him, he paid by being in the Cage with Lucifer, he paid by suffering from Lucifer-induced hallucinations. I don't understand why Cas gets off much easier than Sam and why Dean seems not to have as hard a time forgiving Cas as he did in forgiving Sam. In the past, I handwaved it by telling myself Sam's actions hurt Dean more than Cas' actions did because Sam is family. But now we have the writers having Dean declaring that Cas is family :-?
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-03-22 23:37
It's not the first time Dean has referred to Cas as family since he did in Season 6 in two different episodes. Thinking of someone as family is one thing (and I think both Dean and Cas feel that way about each other and I don't question it at all) but if Dean could only save Sam or Cas he'd choose Sam every single time because Sam is the actual brother. Dean would grieve losing Cas but I don't think he would ever question hat he made the wrong choice and even as a Cas girl I wouldn't hold it against him. Have you never had a friend you were so close to that he or she felt like family?

And Dean may have a higher standard with Sam because he is his actual brother ... yeah, Cas hurting him is bad and Dean gets mad at him too but to have your actual brother you've protected, fought for/with since you were a kid is going to leave a bigger scar. It's not necessarily fair to Sam but brothers don't always get along, it would be unrealistic for them to be on the same page all the time not to mention boring.
elle
# elle 2013-03-23 20:25
Personally, I had trouble with the exchange between Dean and Cas in the crypt at first, it felt rushed and a bit out of sync with where their relationship has been so far this season. But looking back and thinking on it more, while the writing may still have been a bit hasty, I'm okay with it now.

I don't find it out of balance for Dean to refer to Cas as family. It doesn't mean that he's forgiven Cas for his actions. But just because someone you care about disappoints or hurts you greatly, it doesn't mean you stop caring. This is true especially when they strive to fix what they did after recognizing the wrong, like Cas did. Dean and Cas are brothers in arms, been in this battle and through a lot together so to refer to him as family and to have that emotion come to the forefront over any of the palpable tension and mistrust that has obviously been between them all season doesn't feel that unbelievable to me. Nor does it say anything one way or another about the relationship between Sam and Dean, because one has nothing to do with the other - they are separate in and of themselves, built on different foundations with their own complicated histories.

So what Sam will be forgiven or not forgiven for can be totally different than what Cas will be forgiven for. And hell, we can probably throw Bobby and even Benny in there too - have them commit similar crimes against Dean and they could have wholly different reactions and forgiveness timelines. Every relationship dynamic is different.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-25 10:49
Hi dashnjo and Elle, thanks for your viewpoints :-)

dashnjo, in answer to your question: no, I've never had a friend who I was so close to that I considered them family. But it could be a cultural thing: I'm Irish and, in my part of Ireland, we have very, very strong family ties (possibly a little too strong, some might say because we can be insular at time LOL). We tend to see the world in terms of biological family comes first, rest of the human race comes second ;-) Of course, that's not to say that other Irish folks (or any other human beings) don't have friends that they consider to mean as much to them as family, I can only speak from my own experience. So, my own life is probably colouring my interpretation of the scene between Dean and Cas in the crypt but I also feel that the writers haven't laid enough groundwork and backstory for Dean's declaration of Cas as family to work for me. I can completely understand Dean seeing Cas as a friend (although, given Cas' history with the Winchesters, and Cas' treatment of Sam in past seasons, I think Dean's being very generous with his friendship) but I struggle to see Cas as family for Dean. I can easily understand Dean seeing Cas as part of his 'Unit' or his 'Team' or as an ally - I tend to think Dean thinks in military terms and the bonds between soldiers are *very* strong.

I thought the writers did a good job of making Bobby seem like family to the Winchester brothers. They took their time and they built up the relationship. Of course, it helps that Bobby didn't do some of the nasty things that Cas has done to the Winchesters, I'm not as forgiving as Dean (or Sam, it would seem) when it comes to Cas :o
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-03-22 14:40
From Magichappening: Quote:
Castiel: OK, my crazy theory of the week? I think the tablet made Castiel human and a prophet. There, I’ve said it! It definitely changed him, as the demon tablet changed Kevin. It lit up when he took it and he was hanging on to it like Kevin did.
Is Kevin still alive then?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-03-23 09:09
Love2boys
Wow good theory. But then how did Cas manage to heal Dean then if he is no longer an angel and only a prophet. Maybe it is possible to be both an angel and a prophet?

Like how you think though coz something happened. Why would Cas need to protect the tablet from Dean though? Perhaps it is Dean that gets to do that tablets trials? I had a feeling that when the tablet lit up, Cas was 'damaged' like Sam was when he accepted the trials. So maybe Cas gets to do the trials. Next few weeks are going to be one heck of a ride as we only have something like 5 more episodes!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-03-22 14:50
It was meh.I have just watched it once . Should see what other crypts hold, may be other tablets if any.The Dean cas scene at the crypt lost its tension to me as there were ways other than killing Dean which could have got the angel tablet to Naomi.Overall Okay not exciting.
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-03-23 18:58
OK, so this is my swan song, so to speak from reading comments and/or commenting on this site. I'll read the reviews because the admins always write great reviews and even if I don't totally agree with what they're saying it never seems that they are totally trying to rip into Sam, Dean or Cas but are even in their approach to them.

This whole Sam vs Dean and Cas hate sucks all the joy (and tears sometimes) out of the show for me and I'm tired of it. it's draining and childish. Not everyone, of course ... trying to figure out the whole Crowley/Naomi/M esopatamia thing is interesting and trying to theorise about what Cas is going to try and do with the tablet and what his mission is is interesting. But the rest is just tiring to someone who loves both the brothers equally and for different reasons and Cas as well ... they've all had their downfalls and picked themselves up and moved forward even if it takes a while for that to happen. Oh no! Dean likes porn! So do most men ... yeah he's a big hero dude but he's still a man. I'm not a fan of porn or anything but I'm not offended by it either.

Anyway, I wish that more people that weren't taking sides would post more often but maybe they too have decided to stop looking at the comments.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-03-23 19:29
dashnjo, I wish you wouldn't do that! There are always going to be bias's and preferences. This site is so much more civil than others. This is due to a few factors. One is that the admins. won't let it get otherwise. And two, there is such a nice balance of views here. There is a need for your voice here.
elle
# elle 2013-03-23 20:18
dashnjo,

I'm sorry that you feel that way. This site is certainly intended to be a safe place for all to comment without worrying or feeling they can't comment for these very reasons. I hope you'll reconsider - you have good points in your comments and your contributions are important.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-03-24 00:13
Quote:
Oh no! Dean likes porn! So do most men ... yeah he's a big hero dude but he's still a man. I'm not a fan of porn or anything but I'm not offended by it either.
Dashnjo,

I think I started the "Dean and porn conversation." I just wanted to say that I don't intend for it to be bashing Dean's character AT ALL, or the show. I LOVE this show , have loved this season, and Dean's always been the brother I relate to most in terms of sibling interactions. I didn't intend to offend or "suck the joy" out of the show for anyone. And I'm not personally offended by it, I just enjoy the conversation about social responsibility and implications of an issue that has at times irked me.

I hope, like Sam, you'll return after your Swan Song and come back for another round.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-03-24 00:57
dashnjo, I'm sorry if you're upset, but MOST of the posts here I believe are done without anger, I know mine are. The worst is I get irritated typically. But then we debate for sport in my family. I can see if that is not everyone cup of tea. But usually we are just exchanging views on a show we all love. I know tempers can sometimes take hold but maybe just look at it as passion for the show. If we didn't love it, we wouldn't give a crap what was done with it. Hope a break helps, sorry if I contributed to your being upset.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-03-24 02:05
Quote:
This whole Sam vs Dean and Cas hate sucks all the joy (and tears sometimes) out of the show for me and I'm tired of it. it's draining and childish.
I'm with you dashnjo... I really love the reviews on TWFB and will continue to read them. But sometimes the comments do lesson my enjoyment of my visits here. This is particularly the case when people get onto the Sam vs Dean merry-go-round. Seriously, it's like a broken record... and no-one is EVER, EVER going to win this argument. The show is about Sam AND Dean; two brothers who are both flawed and yet are both heroes. Over the years, I've laughed and cried for both brothers (even though I have a soft spot for Sammy).

I, like you, have occasionally taken time-out from reading reviews/comment s... but I miss it when I do. So the way I've come to terms with it now is to apply my own filter to what I read - if a comment strays into Sam vs Dean territory, or is implying that the writers are trying to make Cas/Benny the better brothers, or complaining that we never see Sam's POV or Dean's POV, I just don't read them.

This way I can still enjoy the speculation about the myth-arc of the season; especially this year when there is so much great stuff to discuss. Jeremy Carver is really keeping us guessing... and I love this so much.

I hope you can get back to enjoying/contri buting to the comments some time soon. Take care :-)
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-03-24 03:01
Thanks all of you, since these comments go to my email I've seen them and they did help me to calm down a bit. Maybe I just need to as you say, KG_SPN I should just filter out the ones that do go the negative route and just focus on the ones I think are more productive and not get so upset. I'm a half-glass full kinda gal but it does break my heart a bit sometimes. Everyone has their own opinion and its good to vent/voice concern a bit, as I guess I did, it's just hard when I just saw one of the better episodes I've seen to hear all the negative comments. We all love the show and we all have our favourites, even me, but I try and take a wait and see approach because while one episode Dean may upset me, I always know that there's more to be revealed so don't jump to conclusions. I don't worry that the boys are fighting because it never lasts long and they're brothers who work, eat and sleep in the same room (well, when they're not at the bunker but that's really new) plus have been through some pretty heavy stuff together and have different temperaments so if they just got along all the time it wouldn't seem realistic. Dean seems to not be able to talk about things like Hell and Purgatory until he's ready (people are like that) and Sam seems to hide things like demon blood and the ill effects he's feeling from the trials from Dean but it always comes out. When they finally start talking about it (which sometimes takes a long time it seems) they always come out stronger on the other end.

I'm just putting this out there but I'm a Cas girl, however, that being said Sam and Dean are the heart and soul of the show and if they wrote off either I would watch only because I'm invested but it would never be the same. Not ever and in the end, it wouldn't work. I watched the first three seasons without Cas and loved it so i would be upset if they killed him I'd still keep watching. Obviously I'm pretty stoked I don't need to worry about Cas until the of next season but for all we now it might be the last season ... shudder. I know Carver has a plan to get them (Sam and Dean at least) and I hope he gets to realize that as Kripke got to see the show through to end of season 5 with his grand plan.

Anyway, guess I went off on a bit of a tangent but thanks to all of your comments ... I will try and not get down because of anyone's comments which are really just concern for the show that we all love. xo
just Leah
# just Leah 2013-03-24 03:22
:lol:
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-03-25 11:05
Hi dashnjo, in your post you mentioned a few issues on which I had previously commented higher up the page. Perhaps it might make you feel less annoyed if I explain my viewpoint:

I'm not bashing Dean for the porn issue, I'm stating that I dislike the writers using the porn issue as lazy and sexist characterisatio n of Dean. I'm also saying that I dislike the writers' use of sexist language and humour that demeans women. (I'm also enjoying discussing this issue with other commenters and getting the chance to read their viewpoints on the matter).

I don't see SPN in terms of Sam v Dean, I like both brothers equally, I see them as flawed heroes but one isn't better than the other.

Cas is not a character that interests me much but I think the writers have had some good storylines for him and some bad storylines for him. Me expressing my feelings about the character of Cas are not intended to be argumentative or to make anyone else feel upset, or annoyed, about a character that they enjoy.

I hope you're feeling less unhappy today. WFB is a great website because it's civil and polite. People feel free to discuss things and, whilst people agree on some things they also agree to disagree on other things - that's why I really enjoy it here :-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-03-27 00:04
So I got to wondering if the demon killing knife that was presented to Sam (by Dean) so ostentatiously the other night might eventually turn out to be something else important (like the amulet did) and that led me to thinking about what Grandpa Winchester said about it - he said the guys would need a 'demon killing knife of the Kurds'

The Kurds are from Iraq. And in ancient times (and apparently fairly recently - up until 1922 ) the area of the middle east that contained Iraq was called Mesopotamia.

Crowley and Naomi were off doin' whatever it was they were doing in Mesopotamia (and that could have been after the whole Scottish story), an interesting coincidence.

Also there is ancient legend that Lucifer wasn't actually an angel but a king of Babylon who was thrown down into the pit by God for some transgression or other. Guess where Babylon is/was? Yup, Mesopotamia. (yes, I know everything confirms that Lucifer is an angel but still I like the connection - maybe Lucifer was hanging around on earth pretending to be a king and that's what got God angry with him in the first place)

What does any of this prove / suggest / imply? No idea...

Maybe Lucifer created the knife and gave it to Lillith, who gave it to Ruby, then it went to the Winchesters. Maybe the reason that Naomi wants Castiel to keep an eye on the guys is because she wants to keep an eye on where the knife is. Maybe the reason Cas is keeping the tablet away from the guys is so it is away from the knife? It may be needed for the trials?

Maybe Naomi didn't want Sam using the knife so she brainwashed him into quitting hunting.

It is interesting that the demon killing knife didn't kill Crowley - does it have to hit the heart or something? Or is Crowley immune for some reason?

(thanks to ST50 who helped me brainstorm all this, we agree we are likely totally wrong but it was fun anyway)