WARNING!!! If you haven't seen "Goodbye Stranger," read no further! There are going to be lots of spoilers and theories and discussion about the episode, and you'll want to see it yourself before you read about it secondhand! But when you have seen it, come and join me and discuss!
Whoa, Whoa, I VERY much enjoyed that episode. Robbie Thompson has absolutely killed all his episodes this season, I think. I can't wait to see what he has in store for us next. Everyone just nailed it tonight. The one thing I'm still upset about, though, is...
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEG! NOOOOOOO! WHY?!?!?!?!?
Look, I know she was a demon. I know she has done very, truly, horrible things on this show in the past. LOTS of them. But you know what? I still loved her character. She was snarky and evil and brutal and duplicitous and interesting and fun and horrible and all manner of things. But I still didn't want her to die, and if she had to die, part of me wishes it had been some insane plot twist or overthrowing Crowley or giant explosion or something fittingly glorious. But another part of me is saying, "no, in war and conflict, sometimes people just die and they're gone. They don't always get the sendoff they deserve." But another part of me is like, "but this is TV, and they can do it there!" And then another part of me chimes in with, "but isn't it refreshing when someone just DIES and that's it? That it ISN'T this overblown ordeal?" So I can't decide where I'm coming down on the issue, at least not yet. Maybe some time will help solve that. What did you think about Meg's death?
Crazy Theory Vindication! (Maybe?)
Some of you may remember that in my "Let's Speculate" for "Man's Best Friend With Benefits" that I speculated that Crowley was actually an angel and possibly an undercover CIAngel. That is seeming more and more likely after tonight's episode. He knows Naomi from back in Mesopotamia? That sounds like they were on a mission together. I mean, angels in heaven don't know about Naomi and her gang, but Crowley does. And his banter with her sounded a lot like angels talking to their siblings. Now, an arm stab with an angel blade won't kill a demon, as we saw with Cas' torture scene with the demon earlier in the episode, but I think the visual effects when he got stabbed with the blade and when Meg did looked different. And how did Crowley get into the crypt building with all those demon wards? Easy. It wasn't warded against angels. I think it's looking good for my theory, though.
New Crazy Theory of the Week
I think Castiel is going to end up taking the angel tablet to Metatron, and he's going to ask Metatron to either wipe it clean so it can never be used or write over it so the information on there is changed. And I still want to know what it does. Why would an angel write instructions on how to seal up heaven or destroy angels? Why would God ask an angel to write that? So many questions. But this could be Castiel's mission now, finding Metatron and asking for his help. It surely won't be easy, though.
Is Sam Really Damaged Irreparably?
Castiel was talking about Sam being damaged in ways he couldn't heal him. That sounds extremely ominous. But what if it's just Sam's body self-correcting and expelling the demon blood? What if that's what he is coughing up because he needs to be "pure" for the trials? Damaged on an atomic level. Is that the trials or something else or a combination of Sam's past and the trials?
Okay, this is already long enough, so let's get to the bullet points.
- I LOVE in media res openers. And that opener was a DOOZY. It was so shocking, seeing all those dead Deans on the floor. Cas is gonna have to live with that memory for a long time.
- Doc Holliday! Yes, Dean awesome reference. And more fitting than you know.
- "Volumptuous Asian Lovlies." HA HA HA HA.
- The Bunker has the best Risk table ever! It's lit up and everything!
- That model of the city is a cool prop, though. It really reminded me of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" with the city in the underground tomb and Indy using the staff to find the location of the Ark.
- Getting caught in curlers by Sam and Dean is a nightmare situation for women, right? Props to not having everyone all made up and lovely, though.
- LOLOL, never ask a PhD candidate about their dissertation. I know all you PhD candidates will accept this is not a wise idea unless you have some time to kill or really want to know about it.
- The Cass and Naomi interactions were so tense and interesting.
- "The strange-haired demon in the kitchen." HA HA HA.
- "You know, I can hear you both. I am a celestial being." YES YES YES YES. That was awesome. Also, someone finally called them out on moving like 3 feet away and giving up important info.
- Robo!Cass is SCARY, holy shit. I guess that's what you get when you learn interrogation techniques from CIAngels.
- "Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper." "Hi, I'm Meg. I'm a demon." SNARKY!
- They're digging in the wrong place!!!! Another "Raiders" reference and one of my favorite lines of that movie.
- "My noodle remembers everything. I think it's a pretty good noodle."
- Megstiel. Dean actually said Megstiel.
- I know Misha's teaser about the talk between Meg and Castiel caused a big to-do online yesterday, but I thought that scene was kind of awkward and adorable and funny. Nothing was ever actually going to happen between those two.
- "If you want something done right, blah, blah, blah." Crowley is such a bastard.
- I still want to know why Lucifer had crypts. What was he doing with them? Why did he need them?
- "Shut up, Meg!" Heeeeee.
- I found it very interesting that the lighting in Naomi's room changed when Castiel started slipping away from her. The window side went from bright white to a sunset. We had only ever seen bright white there before. Curious, no?
- Because of the teaser and seeing Castiel kill Dean, the whole scene between the two of them in the crypt was super tense and amazing.
- I mean, this is LITERALLY one of the lines in my notes from that scene. "Holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap, holy crap."
- Put the tablet back in the ANGEL-WARDED BOX!!!! I mean, if you don't want Cas to have it, put it in the box. Right? Right.
- "Love it when you get all tough. Touches me right where my bathing suit goes." Crowley, you magnificent bastard. Writing for snarky demons must be so much fun.
- CROWLEY AND NAOMI, this is excellent. I want more of them interacting.
- "Tart stole my move." Crowley, best ever.
- "Rudy hobbit always gets a pass!" And I love that Sam called Dean on using that quote. And then Dean turns on the radio to indicate that THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER! They're such brothers.
- And we meet another CIAngel. Looks like the hairdo is standard issue along with the suits.
- Why can't the angels find Cas? Is he protected by the tablet somehow? They found him in Purgatory, which seems like it would be more difficult. Is Cas warding himself? We'll probably have to wait a while to find out.
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Comments
I've never believed Crowley was an ordinary demon and this episode pretty well proved it. But it is annoying that we went through the whole Bobby/Fergus thing for what appears to be no reason.
Bobby asked the son for the location of his bone. We can still safely assume that it was his bone. Cas at the time worked with him so he tricked the Winchesters that he burned Crowley's bone. Cas could easily switched the his bone with others. We've shown how the Angel sneaked around the boys during S6.
There's a very weak explanation about Crowley's true identity. I just hope they will give more explanation for that and not just leave it. "Crowley's not a demon. That's it. We've made it so." How?
We need a good story telling to explain Crowley.
If they were bopping around in ancient Macedonia, then Crowley HAS to be older than Fergous McLeod who dide 400 years ago. Frankly, I can't imagine Naomi associating with little old Fergus McLeod, who only came to power after Lucifer was re-caged. Just following the breadcrumbs.
In any case, (canon error, if it was such, nonwithstanding ) this doesn't prove to me that Crowley is somehow anything more than what we thought of him as.
I give up, I'm trying to make sense of a retcon lol
But like you said it might just be a mistake.
I LOVE the Naomi/Crowley connection! But where does this put Samandriel?
Sorry to jump in. I'll back out if you mind.
But I think since we've been hinted at End of The world for at least a couple of years now, (Nostradamus, Mayan, etc) It'll be poetic that Supernatural end with the world REALLY end. And the Winchester boys are in the middle of it. The world end, they died fighting it.
The real problem is that the writers have actively worked to show us that Sam does not want an eternity with Dean. Dean's happy place is hunting, Sam's is not. Sam's isolation includes the fact that in many ways, he is isolated from Dean as well as other people.
"....I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't -- I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it."
But to have all their sacrifices be for nothing would just be horrible to me. They might as well have sat on the beach with a cooler of beer and enjoy the world while it lasted.
I think a bright and sunny future probably doesn't fit the tone of the show but neither does a doomsday coming to pass. But their are a world of choices in between those two options.
And for me, it would be wonderful a 'sunny' ending. The series give me hope, not doom feelings. So why not? There has been too much paind and death already.
For my part, I honestly don't think that a happy ending whereby the brothers settle down with women (cos you just know the writers would think that was the way to make Dean and Sam happy) and live happy lives would serve as an adequate ending for the Winchesters. The Winchesters are scrappy, tragic heroes and to see them going out together, while fighting would be a very heroic and fitting end for them. I'd like to think that they would deserve a more sort of Valhalla type of Heaven rather than the fairly boring Heaven we've seen in SPN. When I say Valhalla, I'm not meaning wine, women, fighting, and song. What I mean is that I think that a Heaven for heroes should be more exciting and more in keeping with what the Winchesters deserve as recompense for all their sacrifice and hard work: in my head that means their family is there in Heaven with them and they get to see what a difference their efforts made in the lives of others.
But it still wouldn't be my first preference. I have seen the suggestion that it would end with them closing the trunk and saying, "We've got work to do." Having free will but choosing to hunt anyway. I really like that. But probably my first preference, especially since this legacy stuff popped up would be a flash forward showing them there children as hunters. It isn't a happy ending really, because we've seen what hard lives hunters have. But it isn't completely sad either because at least they've both had lives, even if they aren't perfect. Plus it has a feeling of symmetry to it. They've both resisted being hunters at times and struggle with what that means to the people in their lives. So if they both end up making the same 'mistake' their father and the rest of their family made it would have a feeling of coming full circle.
The flashing forward to the future to see their children being Hunters is actually quite a depressing scenario to me. If their children turned out to be MoL that might be a slightly less depressing outcome but, on the whole, given how Sam and Dean both had a less than nice childhood (and how many bad things have happened to their family over the years) I can't imagine what awful things would have to happen in their lives to make them okay with the idea of their children becoming involved in battling the supernatural world.
*sits and ponders what an SPN film might contain*
As to what would a Supernatural movie would look like, it will depend on how the series ends. I'm sure we will get to at least season 10, so we have 2 more seasons to see how things go. Frankly, the ratings just came out and Supernatural tied Arrow in the demos, so the will be the second highest rated show in the 18-49 demographic for the CW this week. Plus the umpteenth rerun on TNT had better demographic numbers than first runs of 90210, Cult, Nikita so we are a hit in terms of the CW, so I expect the CW to try and get the Js to go to at least 11 and maybe beyond. But that's just my guess.
Absolutely there's interest in making a movie. J and J have mentioned their interest at Cons on several occasions. There's even a running joke on the set; when they have to scale back an expensive scene or make due with an economical option in sets, props and special affects, there's a running joke that they are "saving it for the movie." Recently at a Con Jared mentioned wanting to do a Supernatural movie so that Sam and Dean could use "big boy words."
Who knows if it will ever happen, but I'd certainly watch it! Both the X-Files and Firefly had great movies after the series ended, so it can be done.
They could be brought back from Heaven with a spell.
I could just picture them, irritated and befuddled, trying to figure out what year it was, how they got brought back, by whom, and why. :)
Or Cas, being an immortal (generally speaking) could bring them back.
Maybe use the MOL's as a home base, not taking on as many jobs and taking on new hunters and training them. Spreading out the knowledge and the work. I have to admit I would like to see them get a happish ending. Not perfect but something that has a future and doesn't end with them dying bloody. But honestly I am okay with the blaze of glory thing as long as no one is in eternal torment.
I bet Sam and Dean will end up in Heaven along with the billions of human's souls. I think "Dark Moon" is not a hundred percent Heaven as it was Zachariah's ground for playing their feelings.
Ash is not that smart that he can hack up Heaven. Come on Ash is only a human's soul. Angels are much more powerful. Ash's world are created by Heaven. Of course Heaven lets him do as he wants and giving what he wants but still within Heaven's boundary and rules. The rule of Heaven is different to mortal world.
Do you ever think that there'll be a clash of interest among Heaven's dwellers? That somehow what one soul wants for their Heaven is against what the others want for their own heaven.
God has left Heaven when Sam and Dean was there. Heaven is only operated by Angels at the time.
So, what I mean with the end of the world is... when the world REALLY end the universe reasserts itself. And in Heaven, the true heaven, there will be two souls reside there, together. Not relieving their past lives but being given a new life, free of monster and reunited with all of their family. The only thing that Dean will hunt (because God forbid Dean to retire from hunting even in Heaven) is deer and probably bison in a Heaven made forest at the back of their house.
I am of the believer that Sam and Dean's soul are basically old souls. That they will live among human at the time of danger and chaos.
Basically by saying that I want Sam and Dean to become legend. Their body may perish but their soul will not. Or perhaps I just read to much fanfiction.
I'm with you in your belief that the Heaven Dean saw was definitely mediated by Zachariah and, therefore, was probably designed to influence Dean's choices along the line that Zachariah wanted. I don't believe that Dean saw the true, un-tampered-wit h Heaven, nor did he see Sam's true Heaven.
I am also upset over Meg. I know she's been in the hot box since "Abandon All Hope", but like she said, she found her unicorn; and her character evolved and changed, which for demon character is pretty refreshing. Plus, I kinda liked Megstiel. I loved their last moment together. Those two have had mad chemistry since day one they met. I was kind of hoping they would get to have pizza and move furniture (you understand?), but alas, it wasn't meant to be.
This episode had amazing pacing! It took off running and never stopped. The tension was at all time high, and even though you knew Dean wouldn't die, you still could help but be "Holy S&%!" when he and Castiel were fighting. While the tablet may have reset Castiel back to factory setting, a part of me thinks it was the love Cas has for Dean that broke through the programming.
And the cold open was one of the best I have seen! Because first you're like "The hell...?!" Then seeing all the bodies, creepy and disturbing. And just when I thought Dean was going to make me cry, Sam pointed out the Lord of the Rings reference and I started cracking up. I like the light moment after all the tense drama. Definitely one of the best episodes of the season, worthy of the A- grade from Entertainment Weekly. I am now more than ever anxious to see where the major arc of the tablets take us.
Previous seasons no crossroad demons was shown with reddish smoke. Why only Crowley? Is it because they have better special effect now? Or there's an important significance?
Is Crowley the same demon with the Crowley prior to season 6? Or he is not a demon all along? Ever since his first appearance in Season 5?
I know it'll open up possibilities for plot and twist and I love a good and well told story but it'll also need a thorough explanation why Crowley is not a demon like they implied.
I hope if it does happen they (the writers) will not just left it hanging like souless!Sam and Sam's instant fix last seasons.
I love that Dean got real and honest with Sam and didn't get angry with him, just told it like it is and vowed to keep him standing. Amazing scene with the car, the lighting,...eve rything! They tore it up.
This was easily the best episode of the season, hands down.
An amazing, truly A + episode.
This was so substantive it will take more than 2 watches to catch every nuance.
First of all, Dean was wearing something other than that green army jacket, which I've come to loathe. I prefer him in black or blue, because of how it reflects his eye color. This episode - finally - we get the blue jacket back. Totally shallow 'yay' from me. :)
Second, I loved Castiel's "test" - which he passed with flying colors. Castiel is back in the fold, even as he's acting secretively. His struggle against Naomi was truly valiant - a real nail-biter.
I loved the snark and pop culture references in this one - my god, could they stuff anymore of that stuff in there? Lol Mind: blown.
And it's the end of an era - what a great send-off for Meg! It was an episode and death truly worthy of her character.
Loved in a totally twisted way the blatant "Megstiel" going on in this one. Seems like the whole thing with Cas and Meg is a 'forbidden fruit' deal. The demon is puzzled by her attraction to the angel, and the angel is equal confounded by his attraction to the demon. Also loved Meg calling Cas her "unicorn."
Loved the "if we live through this we're gonna order a pizza and move some furniture around." WOWZA! :)
Oh, the Cas and Dean and Dean and Sam FEELS, as they say. Just - I could not soak enough of it up. The beating Dean took was brutal. His pleas tore at my heart. And Cas's healing and apology were amazing. Likewise, Sam's sincere apology to Dean and the honesty - oh, the honesty - made my heart soar. I'm just lovin' all over the place! Can't wait to watch again in the a.m.
Dying to watch ep and just WHY does Sam apologies to Dean? Finally the honesty!!! By the sounds of all the comments, this seems to be the best ep this season. What do you think?
I like getting back to the main story arc. I liked getting resolution to some loose threads. I thought the acting was pretty amazing for the characters. The visual of all the dead Dean's because Naomi was making Castiel practice killing him was stunning. The model city was cool. The Ph.D. candidate possessed by a demon, well-done. Crowley's interaction with the demon (he should have had a red shirt on). Getting Crowley back is good. I love to hate him. Getting Meg back and filling in that little piece of the puzzle from Season 7 finale was good, trying to remake her as a sympathetic character, not so much. I loved Dean calling Sam on his lies, but I do love the caring brother stuff including the easy interactions earlier at the bunker.
Areas I had problems with:
1.) Why would Sam risk Amelia's life (no one knew at the time Meg was going to die) by giving her information about a woman he professes to love? Sam and Meg were never friends.
2.) The retcon of Crowley - we had his background, dug up his bones, summoned his son's ghost...now, all of the sudden, he remembers Naomi from Mesopotamia?
3.) I really hated the portrayal of Castiel beating Dean, again. I know some people say it was like he was possessed, but he wasn't. He has been questioning her orders the whole time. It seems socially irresponsible of the show, especially if that scene was supposed to imply any future for Destiel. What next, have a rape scene and blame the victim?
I had a slightly different take on this, kind of sad yet sweet in a weird sort of way; there's no indication Sam has told, or could tell, anyone else (including Dean) the details of what happened during that year so it was probably good for him to get it off his chest..
It makes no sense to me that Amelia would be this special Unicorn to Sam. I tried to see something more in Amelia's character than grumpy, adulterous Veterinary but, for me, it just wasn't there.
Seriously, what about her? Am I supposed to believe that Sam didn't have normal w/her? And before anyone mentions the YED - Sam was not aware of the role the YED played in his life at that time so it was NORMAL for him. He was in college, planning on going to law school and marrying his college sweetheart. It doesn't get more normal than that.
Remember when Kripke had Lucifer pose as Jessica in S5? I guess these writers would have used Amelia instead. I'm sorry but Sam's year w/Amelia when he was supposedly in such grief can't compare to the THREE years he spent w/Jessica.
Argh! It's so frustrating! They can keep trying to make Amelia important but it's not working. Whenever Sam speaks about her, it feels unreal and fake!
I don't hear Sam call Amelia that from his own mouth.
Meg who is a demon found Cas interesting of course for a demon Cas is like a Unicorn, shiny, magical being, not to mention pretty. Meg is profecting her own feeling to Sam. Assuming that what she felt is just like what Sam felt about this so called Amelia girl.
Meg assumes just like Dean assumes that Sam ditched her, Kevin and his own brother to have a "woohoo" with a Vet. (I play too much Sims) But I still don't hear it from Sam's own dialogue that it's like that.
We have Dean assuming what he thought about Sam's past year. Now, we have Meg assuming what she thought about Sam's past year. But not what Sam thought. I still choose to bealive Sam's speech to Dean in "Trial and Error." That he wants to have normal with Dean alive. That he wants to bring Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel. (Sounds like dying and go to Heaven to me)
I also agree that, irrespective of some plotting by YED, Sam had a normal life and normal plans when he was at Stanford. I also think that his relationship with Jess looked like a hell of a lot more fun, and much more healthy, than his relationship with Amelia ever looked. If Amelia and Sam are two broken people clinging to each other to stop from drowning that doesn't sound like "love of my life" stuff, it sounds miserable. Whereas, with Jess, he had plans to marry, be a lawyer, and have a normal life. I think I'm pretty clear on which relationship was better for Sam.
Kaj, I'm hoping you're right and that Meg's description of Sam's time with Amelia is her being Demonic and sarcastic to show Sam that he was on a road to nowhere if he'd stayed with Amelia.
I really wish we could hear more about Sam's decisions immediately after Dean disappeared. I hate this presentation of his decisions, by the writers, as running away, hitting a dog, meeting a girl - it's too simplistic and does Sam's character a disservice because he's a complex person.
By the way, loved the phrase "woohoo with a Vet"
I did have one "woah" moment though. During Sam and Meg's conversation Crowley shows up and says to Sam something like "after what you did to my dog." For one fleeting second I thought that Crowley was referring to the dog Sam hit with the car, and thought OMG, it was Crowley messing with Sam during his year off! Then I realized that Crowley meant the hellhound..... didn't he? Did anyone else have that reaction?
Amelia being Crowley's lackey is a well circulated theory among fans last year.
Meg is the one who killed it.
How? Seriously how would altering Dean's sexuality destroy his character or the show. Supernatural is never going to be a romance so it's not like we'll see him kicking back in bed, snuggling or talking about his epic sexcapades with his brother on the way to a job. It's not like he's suddenly going to turn into a stereotypical, limp wristed, ABBA loving Gay!Boy or in fact any other offensive 'this is gay' stereotype that media puts out. It's not going to change his likes/dislikes. it's not going to overhaul his personality, it's not going to turn him into a glittery vampire.
So with all of that taken into consideration how would altering or confirming Dean's sexual orientation to anything other than straight ruin the show? Because I'm really interested in seeing an answer that isn't full of gross stereotypes or assumptions.
As for not telling Sam about his sexcapades, Dean has always gone on about them. He had Sam WATCH while he did twins. He has talked about the women he was with who he didn't care about.
The main reason it would harm the show (not Dean's character for me) is that it means Dean has to talk about it for us to find out and that means, yes romance be it with Castiel, Benny or whoever. Say Dean is gay or bi. Great, I really have no problem with that, but how do WE find out without interrupting the flow of the show? Amelia turned Sam's story relatively boring. Dean suddenly talking about how he is attracted to a guy, or being found in the act with a guy means there has to be at least one discussion about his sexuality and I want to see brothers chasing monsters, not the crisis of Dean's sexuality. I feel the same way about this as I do about having kids. If they want to out Dean, let's do it in the last episode, so I don't have to have Destiel or Bean hanging over my head. If they want Dean to go skipping off into the sunset with Castiel or Benny or whoever fine, but let's not take time from monsters and the mytharc.
I don't think they would or should delve into Dean's suspected (not by me) bi-ness either.
"Bean"-that one always makes me laugh.
Quote:Then Bobby calls with a lead and we get this scene
Quote:So Dean starts on his twin escapade knowing Sam is watching and cheer's himself on. Yes, Sam then walks in on them after knocking and announcing his presence and sees more than he wants to, but Dean was not keeping Sam out of his sexcapades. And yes, Sam could have left and it's all Sam's fault, yadda, yadda, yadda. My point was that saying that Dean doesn't and hasn't shared his sex life with Sam was not accurate.
It's his way of annoying Sam.
He has flirtations and flings with women all the time that are generally short and playful and comedic. He could do this with a man instead of a woman without interrupting the flow of the show or having to explain it. We would just know from the context that he would not be doing that unless he was gay or bi, and that would be that.
It wouldn't [and shouldn't] have to be a big deal at all.
I assume you are thinking about us seeing Dean kiss a man, but we barely see Dean kissing women. We have seen Dean make passes at women, do you want to see him make a pass at a man? If so, it goes against how Dean has described himself and would need some explanation.
I don't want romance in the show be it heterosexual, gay or pansexual. Amelia and Lisa tanked. If Dean has a one night stand with a man, what does it accomplish? If he has a deep relationship, it acts the same way Lisa and Amelia did, as a way to pull the brothers apart.
We are 8 years in. Dean has been portrayed as being heterosexual this entire time. Could he be gay or more realistically bi? Sure, why not? But what does it add or take from the show? As I said, if at the end of the series, Dean wants to marry Cas or Benny, or convert and marry Aaron with the Golem as one of the best men, okay. But I don't see how having Dean come out adds to the show. All it does is introduce a talking point that works to separate Sam and Dean. And I don't want there to be any more separation than we already have.
I love ABBA by the way
So, what's the connection between Dean attracted with a male and glittering vampire? i don't recall that Edward is gay. I'm just curious.
Love the first and last scene, all those dead Deans, grisly! and I knew they will play Supertramp, somewhere. One of my favorite bands!
Love that part when Meg asked Sam, ... I was missing for a whole year and you didn't look for me?
I like Meg's death, she died protecting the guys, she kind of said it, ...a demon doing good things... I think it was her time. But, after that Megstiel moment, she probably will be resurrected by Cass, if there is a S10 and the actress is available..
Yes, I was thinking too... Dean why you don't put back the tablet in the box? But I guess, if you are with a friend, you don't really think he will kill you.
This was another awesome episode, I love every moment of it, and the acting! Dean, Sam, Cass, Crowley and Meg, very good characters and superb actors.
He spoke Japanese?!
He spoke Japanese once before, though I cannot remember the ep. He was stuck in a game show?
These folks explain my objections better than I could:
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/fetishize-asian-women.html
Dean's obsession with porn, and yes, Asian porn, is something I choose to ignore. For me, it's kind of the 'white elephant' of a show with such a huge female fanbase. That one of the beloved character's favorite things is something that objectifies and demeans women is quite a big thing to overlook, and yet the writers (who are mostly male) keep pushing and pushing it on the audience, whom they must know consist of a large group of females. It's not funny. It's not clever. It's not endearing. And after 8 years, seeing a character of approximately 35 years of age lusting after yet another asian porn magazine is kinda creepy, dull, and disgusting.
Dean's a character with real flaws (and flawed characters are the best kind, IMO). And being sexist and dirty-minded is definitely one of Dean's. In real life, it'd be a huge turn-off. Sometimes I think that if Dean were a real person I would probably not want to associate with him because he's so un-PC.
But I choose to ignore this aspect of his personality, because there are so many other things about him that I love.
This is not to say that I would be opposed to having a talk with the writers about this. It has gotten a little old, and after "Man's Best Friends With Benefits," more than a little stomach-turning .
JMO
UPDATE: I actually think this idea will be easier for us to put together than my other idea, so I've sent it along to Alice and Sweetondean for their approval. We'll let you know!
I agree with you when you say that Dean is a great character, as is Sam, with lots of worthy and good aspects. I'd also like to mention that I'm not sure that his original incarnation was quite so politically incorrect as the characterisatio n he has drifted towards over the years. In the early years of SPN, Dean has a strong tendency to flirt and ogle women but I don't think it's done in a demeaning way, it came across more as enthusiastic and covering up for something lacking in his emotional life. I can't honestly say that I believe that of the character any longer.
I understand that Dean is supposed to be a red-blooded, American, working-class, male but I don't see why the writers assume that part of adequately portraying this characterisatio n is to write him as being sexist and racist in certain scenes. And it boggles my mind that someone has obviously gone to the bother of mocking up that 1950s porn mag and then writing some dialogue where Sam chats to Dean about Dean's love for Asian porn - why on earth put so much effort into that scene? What exactly are they trying to get across to their viewers? I know that this show has a large female fan base, don't the writers care that they are demeaning women and expecting women to watch it? Don't the actors have any objections to their characters being given these lines and these behaviours?
'Man's Best Friends With Benefits' turned my stomach and I'm not ever watching it again. I'm going to try and pretend it doesn't exist.
For a while, I could put up with the show's attempt to find humour in the characters' porn use and preferences, but I just don't feel like suffering in silence any longer. I'd really like to find some way of contacting the writers or production company etc to express my annoyance and frustration with SPN's portrayal of women but I haven't the first clue how to go about finding contact details.
Actually, Admins, is this topic something you would consider making into a "Let's Discuss" article? I know it's a pretty big topic but I think it's worthy of discussion.
Quote:I feel the same. I don't think the actors have much say about it, I mean, this stuff is pretty in-character. Dean's always liked porn. J2 probably shake their heads at it.
I'm no feminist, but I have to think it goes back to the fact that this is a male-dominant show in every respect. And I will go out on a limb to make the following assumption/gene ralization so long as no one throws tomatoes - it might also be partially due to the fact that it's based and filmed in Vancouver, Canada as opposed to Hollywood or NY - I'm not familiar with Canada, and I am by no means dissing it. But perhaps Canadians are not as sensitive to issues of racism and sexism - perhaps they haven't had the same issues as we've had in the US. It's just a thought.
And I am Canadian. Canada as a whole, and within our laws and human rights, is very very sensitive to all things racist and sexist. So I do not think that comes into play as a reason. The writers, who are located outside of Canada anyway, I believe, have created a character that has a view about women that is wrong and objectionable and also racist...and good characterisatio n is one thing but where I would draw the line is if it becomes too much of a running joke rather than something that is a part of Dean. I don't think they have crossed that line...yet. I think I would speak up if they did.
Quote:You know, I should have figured Canada was even more progressive than the U.S. With a little more thought, you're right. My original comment was stupid.
I agree.
I don't have a problem with his love for it (per se)...even as I don't like it for reasons already stated. I mostly have a problem with what I view as a constant, ever-increasing ly reference to it. It feels like a reduction of Dean's character. The portrayal has seemed to become less "Dean occasionally watches/reads porn in his spare time" and more "Whenever Dean has spare time he reads/watches porn, porn is the only thing he reads for pleasure, and every joke he makes now is sexual." The portrayal has become more borderline fetish/obsessio n and less "this is something he likes/enjoys." Plus, Dean likes other things than porn (just like Sam likes other things than books!). It'd be nice to see some of that. I feel the writers could use their creativity more...creative ly. I'd love to Dean reading something for pleasure that isn't a porn mag just as I'd love to see Sam doing something for pleasure that doesn't involve sitting in front of a computer/book.
And yeah, sometimes it feels (to me) like it's being shoved down my throat (a harsh way to put it, I know). It's like, I get it. Dean likes porn. But lately I do feel that it's pushed some boundaries. Personally, I'd like them back off the sexual references a bit, particularly after "MBFWB". I realize all do not feel that way.
What attracts me to this show is that they don’t try to make a man less than a man by inserting in them some women’s traits, or trying to make a woman stronger by acting more like a man (as if that would make women stronger).
I thought it funny, at first, when comedies started to make jokes like that, I mean, like making a man hide behind a woman when he sees a rat and make the woman ‘save him’ by killing it fiercely, or something else as silly as that, in order to show that a man can have the same weakness as a woman is usually portrayed as having, and that a woman can be as strong as a man. Ok, I get it, and I agree. That was an important and significant change, a good step toward the deserved equal rights for women and men.
But then it started to be a rule, making funny weak men (like the FRIENDS guys – adorable, but sometimes I wanted to shake them silly) vs. all strong independent women with almost no weakness at all. That was really annoying me.
IMO (let me emphasize that – IMO!), men and women are not equals per se, they are not the same. I’m not (let me emphasize that too – NOT!) saying one gender is better, or superior, or anything more or less than the other – that’s just stupid! They are just different. And that’s ok, why not accept that? I like to think that one completes the other, they are equally important.
OF COURSE everybody is different. But that are usually (let me repeat – usually, not always) things that come easier for a woman, and some things that come easier to a man. Like, talking, communicating for a woman. It’s more natural, and certainly healthier. But for a guy – sometimes it’s like torture! And what is the top thing that irritates the crap out of us between Sam and Dean? They don’t talk to each other! Not as much as we, female audience, would love them to do. And when they do is like, three words, then, are we good? Yes, we are good – change the subject and move on.
I’m like any girl, I would love the man in my life to freaking talk more. But they don’t. Ok, then, I’ll have to accept that, just do my job, try to make them talk but not push too hard, give them space and time or it will be a daily Hell on Earth.
That’s why I hate when they make shows that man are all touchy felly, saying all the freaking time what they are thinking and felling etc. What man does that?
What I’m saying is that men tend to (let me emphasize one more time – tends to) be a little more immature than women, certainly makes much more insensitive sexual jokes that women just don’t appreciate as they do, treats their friends lovingly but in a way a woman wouldn’t do to a girlfriend (like calling a friend names – is an expression of love for man, but not so much for a woman – IMO, IMO!), or sometimes be an ass and appreciate porn too much.
What I love in Sam and Dean is that they can be so loving, and caring, even motherly (like Dean towards Sam), and still be allowed to be men.
I know, it’s a sensitive subject. But that is how I see it.
I don't want Sam or Dean to have "womanly traits", not that I like gender stereotypes. Objectification of women (or men) through the enjoyment of pornography isn't something I consider to be a "manly" (or "womanly") trait.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how enjoying porn makes a man "strong" or more of a man while not enjoying porn would make him "weak" or less of a man.
Perhaps I'm not understanding how the examples you use (making a man look "weak" to make women look "stronger" in comedies) relate to this topic.
I don't think men and woman are that different on a fundamental level. I do, however, think that culturally-gene rated differences exist that are so pervasive in our society that people mistake them for biological or psychological differences.
I agree with you that it's great that Sam and Dean get to express the nurturing elements of their personalities but I don't understand how this could also be something that might stop them from being 'allowed to be men'.
I don't think he did that in the first 10 episodes. We only have it in MBFWB and Goodbye Stranger. Larp is all Charlie. Hmm what else? If it's only in 3 or 4 episodes than it's not out of line IMO. Perhaps they should put it more sporadically like between 5 or 6 episodes.
last season Dean is so depressed that he didn't even think of porn except for HCW
I don't have a problem with ethically produced porn (although I have a huge problem with the ethos of the porn industry at large - I think what I'm trying to say is that I'm not offended by Dean's behaviour because of an anti-porn standpoint) and, in the early days of SPN, I had no problem with the idea that Dean would occasionally use porn (I mean, I could see how it fitted into the backstory of the character: it was probably a habit he picked up to pass the time during lulls in cases and he was working on his own, for the 4 years that Sam was at Stanford, so Dean probably had a lot of alone time to fill) but I think it's crossing the line this year and has become lazy (and sexist) characterisatio n.
I kind of like that Dean's un-PC. Ah.. I dig dirty minded Dean (TMI?)
Sometimes when we love a person we tend to be subjective and disregard their flaws. Even their flaws we love.
Mulder porn fixation was even funnier than Dean's. And Scully's dry response to it was as classic as Sam bitchface.
I'm an AA woman, and his porn obsession has never bothered me. It's played for laughs but I could see how it could be offensive to others.
I realize that many women watch porn themselves, or with their significant others, and many view it differently than I.
I respect that.
lala2, I am Caucasian myself, so it's good to read another perspective. I can't speak for others, so my issue is the porn itself and the increasing "dirty mindedness" of Dean.
As a 25 year old American female, I certainly don't consider myself a prude. And I watch other shows like Sons of Anarchy, for example, that are downright filthy. But one big difference is that SOA has strong female leads. and influences BTS.
SPN is different. My issue revolves around Dean's increasingly un-PC characterizatio n and the curiosity of immature and often insensitive sexual humor from a decidedly male-dominated show mixed with a decidedly female-dominate d fanbase.
All that said, I do view Dean's porn mentions as being "comedic." It's been a long running joke (i.e., ABB) for Dean that I honestly think is played for laughs. I don't think it's supposed to reflect how Dean views women, etc. It's supposed to be seen as a joke.
Again, I understand why some could take offense to it. As an AA woman, I took no offense to dog episode though I could see why others might. I tend to look at things in the way I believe they're intended. For instance, I don't believe the writers of that dog episode intended to make any social commentary on AAs and slavery so the black woman (forgot the character's name) being shown to wear a collar and call the white male, "master" did not bother me. She was technically a dog. Dogs wear collars. A dog's owner is often referred to as that dog's "master." The actress just happened to be AA.
Here, I think the joke was intended to show that Dean could relate to the MOLs b/c even they liked ABBs. Again, no true offense was intended in my eyes so I found no harm in the comment or in Dean's actions. He likes naked women and, in particular, naked Asian women.
I can't say I even thought about that line much but miles vary.
Now the lack of strong female leads may make it seem worse, but SOA would have the feminist groups up in arms if it didn't have strong female leads, with how badly they treat women on that show. Dean ogles boobs in magazine and talks about Kate Winslet rack. He's hardly a misogynist, unlike the guys on SOA. I ogle Sam and Dean or Jared and Jensen-turnabou t is fair play, IMO.
And I kinda of think saying they lack strong female leads is unfair. The only leads are the boys and they do have strong non-clingy female characters. Even a couple cool recurring ones.
Quote:I think that's a fair way to look at it.
I should clarify that my issue isn't with this episode alone, but with a collective, general impression I've gotten recently.
Re: SOA - yeah, the women tend to give as good as they get, so to speak, on that show. Especially the two leads. It's kind of a free-for-all. Very equal. But you're right, it's on a totally different level than SPN.
Eh...agree to disagree on the lack of strong female characters in SPN. The only ones we've had with significant roles that I can think of were Jo and Ellen - and they were killed off.
This made another thing pop into my head...the disparaging use of the word "bitch" even in jest, in SPN (and particularly by Dean). Bother anyone? I guess I'm kind of on a role with this topic today. Forgive me. :)
I understand that the 'bitch...jerk' routine was conceived as a brotherly teasing thing in early seasons, so I tried not to be too bothered about it but I've heard Dean (can't remember if Sam uses it but he probably does) using it to describe female enemies and I think it's a demeaning term that's a lazy and sexist insult because it carries culturally-imbu ed negative connotations when used to describe a woman.
Now when use as an actually insult, I think most of the time it could be interchangeable with asshole (which you can't say on tv). I think they called Bella a bitch, but I thought Bella was a bitch so that didn't bother me either.
I do think the phrase "don't be a bitch" references gender though. Dean has used that phrase toward Sam when Sam has been upset, mopey, or snappish. The more recent examples that come to mind are Unforgiven and that psychic episode from S7, I think. Women are stereotypically perceived as more emotional than men. We get upset a lot. We mope, complain, and nag. Those are the stereotypes for women. Stereotypically , men aren't seen as whining, crying, mopey, or sulking.
When Dean tells Sam to not be a bitch, he's essentially telling him to "man up," IMO, b/c he feels Sam is behaving like a woman (i.e., whining or sulking about something).
I definitely think that phrase references gender stereotypes.
I have to admit I stopped a good portion of my cussing when I started watching my sister's kids. (Everyone but their father stopped). So a lot of these I haven't used regularly in years. My sister's oldest two are in college now. I actually asked if it was okay to flip them off now since their adults
Basically, I think the word "bitch" is almost always has an underlying gender reference. Again, it may not be one's conscious thought or intention.
I will grant you regional usage can vary the strength of terms. Such as, bloody is considered a very bad word, I'm told in Britain (British people correct me if this has changed) But in the US, a kindergartener could say it without anyone blinking because it is barely used as a curse word here. And certainly not a strong one. With the US being so spread out it's very possible that in some regions, bitch is a much stronger curse word or that it does still more readily carry gender connotations. BUT in most of MY social groups bitch is no stronger than ass.
KELLY,
I agree that words change meaning over time, but I disagree that the change in usage has been so great that it justifies usage of the term. The word "bitch" is still used as an insult (not always, but very often), just as "bastard" is a word still used as an insult (not always, but very often). And the whole point of socio-cultural sensitivity (which I argue the show lacks to a degree) is to recognize the origin of these words and the underlying stereotypes/der ogatory references and, rather than rationalize or justify their continued use, to condemn and/or change them.
To use an example, the word "retarded" used to be a clinical term before it was turned into a derogatory word, often used on the playground. As I grew older I learned of the the campaign to end the use of the "r" word. Why the campaign? It's about social sensitivity and realizing that using the word "retarded" to refer to any person or thing subtly reinforces and promotes hurtful stereotypes about people who are disabled or who have learning difficulties.
Words like "bitch" and others are no different.
When a person calls someone a bastard they are almost never saying your parents weren't married when you were born. It is use almost exclusively in modern times, to mean a repugnant person, a jerk, insensitive, an complete asshole. Now I'll grant some insensitive bastard will use the word bastard (see what I did there HA)in its original meaning to hurt someone, but that is not the standard use anymore. Just like gay means happy and now, even though it still does, it is used almost exclusively to mean homosexual.
Just like to a lesser degree, I don't believe bitch has the same gender related usage that it previously had, in many cases. Now I grant you when guys are singing about bitches and ho's I usually want to slap them upside the head. But in those case they are using it as a derogatory term to describe all women in general. So type of usage is obviously key to me. Just like when my nieces and nephews started using the phrase "that's so gay" to mean something girly or cheesy, I would correct them every time. But unfortunately they have gay friends who used it in the same way so they felt I was just old, so now I'm guessing they just don't use it around me.
But that is the problem with political correctness, it literally changes constantly. New norms are accepted and old ones are toss out. But usually it takes years for it to become official in anyway and by that time there are a whole new set of norms. IE I most of my black friends and acquaintances use the term black, but I have a few prefer the more pc term African-America n. I've even seen a few rappers on TV say they've reclaimed the "N" (which I'm sure I will always find offensive) and made it their own.
I'm not saying pc is bad but it is not so black and white as this word is good, that word is bad. And it can be taken too far. Which is what I think this doing.
In regards to your other post, my point was I do not see the show as getting increasingly disrespectful towards women. I firmly believe that they've actually gotten better over time (even though I don't think they were ever horrible), but if you ever find the time to be a obsessive weirdo like me
I could keep going even without mentioning the monster or demon women. Just because they are not regulars on the show does not mean women are treat badly or at least anymore badly than the men. And Dean is pretty respectful even if his form of charm does run to the un-pc.
Yes, the actresses on SPN are generally wonderful. But they never stick around very long, and several have been love-interests. None have had "strong" roles, or perhaps better-worded, "lead" roles. 8 seasons is a long time to not have any female lead roles. And by "lead" I mean a protagonist who shows up as often as Cas or Bobby.
I don't think the women who've been on the show have been treated badly AT ALL. It's the porn. Porn, in and of itself, is disrespectful and demeaning to women. That's just my opinion.
The show is a hard one to have ANY regular characters because they have to travel together place to place. And the show revolves around the boys.
I do think that they introduce the women characters poorly and in earlier seasons hardly any of the one off characters were extremely fleshed out. But they've done better along the way. And Charlie is coming back and I hope Jody Mills. But they will never be regular characters. Because even Castiel who is extremely popular has only been considered a regular in 2 seasons. S5 and S9. This show is all about the boys.
I not going to spend a lot of time defending porn.
That entire scene was completely gratuitous and cheap. At the time, I thought, "Is this what this show has been reduced to? Having a girl strip to her undies for no freakin' reason?!?!?"
That upset me much more than Dean's love for porn.
When it comes to Dean and his use of porn, I don't hate it per se, I just don't like how it's seems to have become specific to one fetish (which is well known for being racist) and I don't like how we're getting a vibe of him having this fetish more this year than in other seasons.
I can understand where the original idea for this element of Dean's character came from. I can see how the writers might have been trying to use early scenes of Dean using porn to show that it grew out of him growing up in motels, spending time alone on the road, and having time to kill. However, in recent years, I've just wished they'd give up on their attempt at using Dean's porn use as humour because I don't feel it works.
I don't know why but the references to porn have never bothered me. I'm not sure why. I don't watch porn so that's not it. I guess I just don't think it's as prevalent as you guys do. I'd have to scan this thread again to even remember when and how it was referenced in this episode. I remember the magazine but that's it. Was there another porn mention?
I don't see Dean as being obsessed with porn. I also didn't find his comments to Portia to be offensive or out of line. I guess that's because I had the same questions: is she a dog or a human who poses as a dog from time to time? Her whole relationship with that guy squicked me out tremendously!
You mean when that young girl stripped in front of a room full of business-clad adults? Yeah, I was pretty horrified - not even at the scene, but at the fact that they made a young actress do that. Sure, I bet she has parents and I bet she got paid, and I bet she's not even as young as she looked. Still. It was unnecessary and disgusting.
Yes, for me it's kind of an all-encompasing frustration. Not just the porn.
I wonder why Sera approved (or wrote) that scene. What was even the point of making her strip down? There was no point to it!
The very notion of an "exotic beauty" is an example of this type of fetishisation. One of my big problems with SPN showing Dean having this fetish for Asian porn is the objectification of women and the devaluation of women that happens as a result. I think that the writers see it as form of humour but they're failing to see that there is actually a serious underlying point. It's also rather a tone deaf move for a show with a significant female fan base.
I also think that, over the years, SPN has had a dodgy record with regards to portrayals of female characters in the show. It seems to me that the majority of victims are women and they tend to die horrible, gory deaths. Female adversaries of the Winchesters tend to be overtly sexualised and tend to come to gory and violent ends. I can count on one hand the number of strong, non-sexualised, well-portrayed women that I feel have been in SPN: Ellen, Missouri, Jody, Kathleen, Charlie. To my mind, an awful lot of the other female characters have had sexist elements in their portrayal.
Edited to add: I had a chat about the Asian porn + Dean issue with a male friend of mine who used to watch SPN and in his opinion the writers inclusion of this specific element was weird and did the character a disservice. My friend pointed out that if the writers wanted a humorous scene with Dean doing something unexpected, that he might be embarrassed someone would discover him doing, then why not have him reading a magazine about Lacrosse or looking at a website about patchwork LOL.
But I don't think it's true that the majority of victims are women or that the women are killed in a more gruesome manor. Usually there is a mixture of male and female victims and they are almost all gory. I took a quick look over the episode list and it seems to be pretty balanced. I also don't agree that most the women bad guys are highly sexualized.
Ruby did use sex to manipulate Sam. But first she tried appealing to his warrior side and wasn't having much luck. So she switched tactics. Meg is pretty sexual but that is one character. Crowley and Balthazar are even more so. The siren was highly sexual but within that same episode they had a strong woman who stood up to them and was definitely in control of her sexuality and it was in no way negative.
I also don't agree with your assessment that there have only be a handful of strong non-sexualized women. First of all, Charlie was definitely shown to be a sexual being, as was Jodi. Just because they aren't hitting on the Winchester's doesn't mean they aren't sexual.
But maybe the problem is the way we are defining sexualized. Being sexual in nature is only negative if you are sexualizing something that shouldn't be. Such as a child. But most women should and do have a sexual side to their personality, as I'm sure you'd agree. So maybe the problem is you think they are just sexual objects with no substance? Or that they are only showing the sexual side? Or that you don't think they shouldn't be seen as attractive to Winchester? Or that you just think they pick young attractive women only and don't delve enough into others types?
If it is any of these the only one that has any really merit is the last, but even that stopped being the case after S1 pretty much, IMO. There have been lots of great one off characters. Some of them hit on the boys, some have no interest or have bigger concerns. But it is not like every episode some bimbet is throwing themselves at the boys. They rarely ever have sex on screen and there is never random skimpily clad girls wandering around for no apparent reason. So I'm not sure where the accusation of sexualizing all the females comes from.
IMO, it is simply the nature of the show that it is hard to have secondary characters male or female. Bobby and Cas are the only ones that have been around with any consistency. This just isn't a ensemble cast type show.
When I described some of the female characters as overtly sexualised I wasn’t trying to say that I preferred the women in the show to be neuter with no expression of female sexuality. I was trying to get across the idea that I felt the portrayal of many female characters was centred on the sexual part of the female nature with little proper character development other than as sexual interest for either the Winchesters or the viewers.
I also think that the show doesn’t write a wide enough range of female characters. I think they have a tendency to cast women who are then portrayed with their attractiveness, and flirtatiousness , being a central part of the characterisatio n. I loved the characters of Missouri, Ellen, Jody, and Kathleen, and Charlie because they were strong, confident, capable, sexy without that being their whole raison d’etre, and they were fleshed out to be actual people.
I’m not saying that every female character the Winchesters meet is portrayed as potentially sexually available to them, I’m just saying that over the years I’ve noticed that there is a strong tendency towards portraying secondary female characters, and some female protagonists and enemies, in a way that emphasises the sexual, with not as much effort given to developing other elements of their characterisatio n to a good degree.
I’m not saying that SPN is completely and totally sexist, I’m just saying that the show’s attitude towards women is complicated and it has a history of not treating female characters well.
BTW, a few years ago, I found this flow chart on Cracked.com and thought it was a humorous attempt to say something about the portrayal of women on SPN
But the reality (and now being an obsessive person I want to spend the rest of the day coming up with numbers-but I can't
And yes the girls were the ones they talked to about the case, but they weren't the victims anymore then men. And again this progressively stopped really being the case. But the ideas stuck and then they had that stupid article about the witches. Which was blown completely out of portion to what was shown on screen. The witches in that episodes weren't even evil. Well maybe the scorned women, but she just took revenge though magic rather than a gun because she could. They also had an all but innocent one who got herself promotions and trips and then got killed trying to kill the demon who was possessing another woman. And then the had the annoying one who unknowingly sold her sole to increase her pottery business (which is the funniest thing ever).
There were all different types of women in that episode with all different types of motivations, thoughts and feelings. Not all good. But not all bad either. But again there became this perception surrounding women based on things that were not even true, IMO.
Yes this is a male dominated show but I don't think that is largely due to the show being entirely centered on 2 brothers. The show revolves around them so it is male dominated. And at least partially due to the fact that when they tried different women in the past they were not well received. Part of that is their fault but part of that is the fans.
And I think another problem is that because of the genre people compare it to Whedonverse. And Joss writes amazing women, like some of the best women characters in television regardless of genre. But his shows are ensemble cast. So you have lots of time to build complex nuanced characters both men and women. Or if if was a two person show like the X-Files where one is a man and one is a woman. Then you could show Samantha or Deana, like they did Scully, ice cold one episode and completely vulnerable the next. But that just isn't an option on this show because the focus has to remain on the brothers.
Quote:Hi Ciar, I know that your post has more to do with sexuality than with violence on the show, but I thought you might be interested in an article on this same subject that I ran across;
http://spn-heavymeta.livejournal.com/425753.html
I hope that the link works but if not, it's called Gender Bias in Supernatural: The Cold Hard Stats and it's on Livejournal in case anyone wants to look it up. Very interesting reading; there have in fact been FAR fewer female victims and many greater female survivors than male on this show. The article was done after season 6, so these numbers are probably even more skewed than they are here in this article. The issue of sexualization isn't addressed, its more about the violence and the perception of violence against women on the show, which somehow is misleading if these numbers are accurate. Check it out, it's interesting reading at any rate.
On the whole, SPN episodes pass the Bechdel Test (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheBechdelTest?from=Main.TheBechdelTest) more often than not. Although, that must be tricky to ensure because the Winchesters' enemies talk about them a lot and so do their allies and there are women in both of those camps
I must have a hunt around via Google to see if I can find anything meta like this article for sexuality.
So I went off on my self-imposed quest to see what I could find about sexism and SPN and I found these quite interesting (with interesting discussion in the comments) so I thought I'd post the links:
(http://rosalui.livejournal.com/93328.html)
(http://fannishliss.livejournal.com/150949.html)
(http://spn-heavymeta.livejournal.com/309907.html?thread=1011603)
Once again, I just want to say that I don't think SPN is totally sexist I just think it has a tendency to not always strike the right tone when it comes to the portrayal of female characters, and it has a tendency to waste the potential that some female characters could have by focussing on sexualising them in terms of how the Winchesters, or the show's audience, are intended to view them.
As much as portrayals of female characters in SPN have irritated me, I also think that SPN can get female characters right too and there are portrayals of women in the show that I feckin *love*
Edited to add: These two comments on a meta article about sexism in both SPN and SPN Fandom sum up how I feel about certain elements of SPN (http://spn-heavymeta.livejournal.com/309907.html?thread=1020563#t1020563)
Hope these are interesting for you too
The 2nd one I liked, not surprising since her ideas are line with mine more or less.
The first one I pretty much disagree with everything (and the articles she links to), not surprising, since I completely disagree with her premise. And her evidence I consider HIGHLY subjective. I feel like she must have recently taken a women's studies class. Which are great, but have the effect making the students actively search for all the ways people are being sexist. Just like psychology classes make you start psycho analyzing your friends.
I could go in to details about ALL the reason why I disagree with pretty much every single she wrote and linked to, but trust me no one wants to read that.
THANK YOU for sharing these links!
I especially liked this quote pulled from one:
Quote:As well as this one pulled from another:
Quote:I guess, bottom line, I don't think SPN is mysoginistic or sexist...however, I do think there is a real problem with the consistent use of slang/derogatory references to females being thrown around like it's candy.
And I do think there's an issue with what I view as an increase in sexual references, the objectification of women, and a lack of cultural/social sensitivity evidenced in the writing. It's gotten better in some areas and worse in others. How much of this is pushing boundaries for entertainment purposes and how much is general ignorance is hard, if not impossible, to guess.
Perhaps what you said is best...
Quote:
I haven't seen any objectifying on this show beyond what we all do to people we don't know. I look at a guy and go "damn" in my head or nudge my sister. Which is the most we usually see Dean do. Maybe it's not right, but it is human nature. I think asking the writers to pretend that doesn't happen is silly. Just like I think it's silly for them to pretend that most grown men don't watch porn or check out good-looking women. I don't really want the guys all pc. If they are going to go for unrealistic qualities I rather they have they become really good a communication.
Quote:I think there needs to be a definition of terms here. To me, there's a difference between objectifying someone and admiring them. I acknowledge and admire the fact that Sam and Dean good-looking men. Dean oogles at good-looking women on the street. But I think there's a line between that and porn. And I think there's a line between that and some of the situations/phra ses that have occurred on the show.
I don't want the guys all PC - that would entirely unrealistic. BUT, as I've stated before, there have been times when the un-PCness has (I've felt) crossed lines or been "pushed" too much on the audience.
As they say, miles vary. :)
I quickly scanned the transcripts for this season. I just don’t see the trend of more misogynistic language that you are talking about. I didn't count son-of-a-bitch because all but once it was used as an exclamation. I refuse to say it has ANY gender reference during those times. If you want you can add one son-of-a-bitch in referencing a hellhound but since it is actually a dog, I can't really go for that either.Now it is very possible that I missed some. I was going through the transcripts pretty fast. But I do believe I got most of them.
Sam says I knew you’d bitch about it in the first episode but that is clearly gender neutral. (at least IMO)
Dean talks about those “bitches†when speaking about the Leviathan, but since we met more many male than female Leviathan I think that can be considered gender neutral too.
The head vampire calls Benny’s girl a cow in Blood Brother, which is way worse to me than bitch so I’ll give you that one, but it is said by the bad guy, not Dean or Sam.
Trial and Error Dean says they’ll summon a red-eyed bitch. (this is the ONLY usage of bitch to refer to an actually female)
Same episode one of the daughters refers to the step-mother as a prostitute.
Dean yells at the hellhound you’re Crowley’s bitch, but again since it is referring to an actual dog that one get as pass I’d say.
MBFwB is.......well there's a minority girl in a dog collar who calls her boyfriend master. Other than the fact that she is actually a savvy tough woman. I will give you that entire episode, because REALLY a dog collar and master. The fairy refers to Boltar as master in the larping ep but that one didn't bother me as much, perhaps because they weren't a couple.Dean says drive was a bitch in this episode.
In GBS Crowley calls Meg his whore. Calls Naomi a tart.
And that's it. Bitch is only used one time by anyone in referencing a female or possible female since Dean was talking about a random crossroads demon. And not a actually human. And only 4 times total, I'm sorry I can't count when he is talking about a dog (even if it is a hellhound) that's actually the correct usage of it.
Like I said, it's possible I missed some, but I definitely don't think they come anywhere close to saying it once an episode and they almost never say it when referencing an actual female. I know Dean call Bella a bitch, and I think Lilith and I'm almost positive Ruby and Meg. And I know Jo called Ellen a black-eyed bitch when she thought her mother was possessed.
But I really don't think he or Sam hardly ever use it when referencing an actual female. But I can fairly definitively say that they haven't INCREASED the usage of it.
I would respectfully say that I think you're taking me too literally. :)
It's not about eliminating specific words or how many times a certain deplorable term is used - I feel like this misses the point. It's about language in general. It's about how the words are used and the underlying message. And it's not just the words "bitch" and "whore" etc., but other phrases that don't use such words, the sexual humor, etc. And again - it's not just this season; it's a cumulative thing. The increase has been since S3, I'd say.
Thing is: I don't think there's any way to "prove or disprove" these claims - they are impressions that I've gotten that a few others obviously share, but not everyone. And that's okay. It's highly subjective anyway, as we each have different criteria for evaluating what is sexist or misogynist or dirty and what is not.
Thank you for sharing the results of your research. I will probably do some of my own when I have the time. I'd like to get some more concrete examples of what I'm talking about together - it would certainly help me explain myself more adequately.
I'll try and explain what I mean
I genuinely don't feel there is a gender neutral way to use certain words, like 'bitch', that are historically associated with pejorative ways of describing women. So, to use your examples above, you saw some gender neutral uses but I saw sexist language in each one because the term "bitch" fundamentally is sexist (it can't be divorced from it's linguistic origins) and it's pejorative in usage (the only reason "bitch" works as an effective insult or slur is *because* of the sexist + negative connotations). Men wouldn't call each other bitches if they weren't try to demean each other, the word would have no power if it wasn't for its sexist origins.
As for the words "whore" "tart" and 'cow", again they only have power because they are sexist + negative and are used to demean and negate someone.
I'm not saying I want Sam and Dean, and other male (or female) characters to go around using unrealistic, tame dialogue that doesn't contain insults, I'm just saying that the show has a tendency towards using sexist insults more often than not and that gives me a bad vibe.
And, I think Bamboo's post above summed up my thoughts on the tone of humour and general language on the show over the years. Since S3, and the inclusion of Bella (and Ruby 1.0) to which I think it might be related, I think the Winchesters have been much more sexist in their use of insults towards female enemies and enemies in general. I don't know if that's a result of the writers wanting to strike an edgier tone or not, but I think since S3 the tone of the show has tried to include more objectifying sexual humour aimed at women. The porn jokes and the Witch's familiar bother me because I believe there is a difference between sexual objectification and sexual admiration - one is sexist and negating the person's existence as individual (there's a power dynamic involved in thinking about someone that way) and the other is thinking the person is sexually attractive which isn't negative and sees the person holistically, personality and self-determinat ion included
My tolerance for sexist behaviour and sexist language is not high. I don't set out to find things to be insulted about but I do think that sexist language and misogynistic behaviour is very widespread in the media and entertainment (which makes sense given that our media is a reflection of what's happening in our society). I think a lot of people have become used to it and don't see it any more - which is a pity because constant exposure to this kind of thing is not good, it influences how people see the world and how they see women. And with the media and our entertainment churning out negative attitudes towards women it isn't hard to see why women are still having a hard time in our society.
Thanks again for having this discussion with me - I'm finding it fascinating
Still, Angel can't heal demon? If Cas can heal wounds then why didn't he heal Meg? instead of wrapping her hand with bandage?
Or is it just a ploy from Cas to be able to touch Meg?
Or a ploy from the writer for furthering megstiel? I mean I don't have a problem with that but still you have to explain your facts right when you right a script.
It's out of character for Cas who can heal wounds easily opts to wrap meg's wrist in bandage. Cas is incapable of thinking sneaky sweet thoughts like that. He's not well verse in human's way.
So, which is it writer?
One more thing about Sam being damaged. If Cas also said that the damage that's been done to Sam from Lucifer's hallucinations is adding to the damage he is suffering now... That will explain a LOT of things.
It'll explain Sam's hot and cold attitude and rather OOC behavior in epi 1-10. It will imply that something in Sam has already been damaged beyond repair when Dean disappeared and it contributes to his odd behavior since episode one. By not looking for Kevin, by not trying hard to look for Dean. I get it if he wants to live normal but he didn't even lift a finger to find any lore or research or maybe just asking spirits or physic. .
It's there writers... the explanation ... grab it and explain it away.
Just say.."Sam you've been damaged ever since the Lucifer's hallucinations and never recover from that. And this trials add to it."
I don't think the writers have any intention of explaining Sam's behavior from the first half of the season.
Yes it is interesting why he didn't heal Meg. I have a feeling it isn't over for Meg. I also like your take on Sam's condition and yes it would explain a lot of whats been going on with Sam this season.
Overall, these eps are defo getting that old season 1 -5 feeling back again. Love it!!
I'm thinking that my head canon might now be that Sam was damaged on a fundamental level since the Demon blood + becoming Lucifer's vessel and that's why he's been behaving strangely (since S4), but now that damage is being 'dealt with' by his acceptance of the role of Trial-completer and that's why he's starting to be more like the Sam we knew and loved. What do you think? Does this idea have any merit?
The demon gets to dump on Sam. And everyone has special relationships with others while Sam still doesn't have one person he can truely talk to....doesn't have a friend and his
"brother" sees him as nothing more then something to fix.
Om so tied of Sam being so isolated. So the writers hate him that much that he can't have ONE relationship with another person? Conforming SAm to whatever Dean thinks he should be/is is not a relationship.
So I think Sam is now officially a far less important character.
Sam can be given all the mytharcs and trials in the world but it will be Dean that will get the heart of the story and storytelling.
Take me out of the question - google Samwise Gamgee, or better yet google archetype loyal sidekick.
However, for this argument, it doesn't matter. I quoted Robby Thompson and HE thinks that Samwise is the main character of LOTR and that is what HE and possibly the other writers are bringing to Supernatural. It doesn't matter if he is rewriting LOTR, because he's writing Supernatural not LOTR and in his Supernatural Dean matters and Sam, not so much because Dean is the hero, and Sam is not period.
I've always seen Sam and Dean as both being essential to every mytharc because they both bring different skills and personality elements to bear on solving problems. I feel the same way about Sam and Frodo. The Ring Quest took both of the Hobbits to complete and needed the skills and abilities of both of them to ensure that the Ring ended up in the fires of Mount Doom. At the risk of sounding like Sesame Street: teamwork is what gets things done (in both LOTR and SPN)
Sam needs Dean (and Frodo needs Samwise) and visa versa. Sam and Frodo are born to complete a painful destiny and to suffer terribly while doing so but Dean and Samwise are their strength, their protector, and the provider of the vital love and centring for when the quest becomes too harsh and causes Sam (and Frodo) to lose themselves. I think Mr Thompson and I have rather differing views on the subtext and characterisatio n in LOTR (and SPN).
This quote is exactly my problem with SPN. Why is Dean only the POV character on a two-lead show? Sam should have just as much POV and why can't Dean have a mytharc? As long as they do it the same way as they have in the past with the POV charcter not the one with the mytharc it would be great.
This is what IMO is the biggest problem of both the Sam and Dean fans. It's too one-sided.
*edited post to make it clear I was referring to Sam the Hobbit and not Sam the Moose*
Dead Dean's everywhere! Loved and was shocked by the opening scene. The show always does well with cold opening scenes.
Everyone was on their game tonight, but I have to say that JA rocks it every time he is given some meat to work with. The Dean/Cas crypt scenes were excellent. I liked the Sam/Meg Samelia talk, too, but that whole story was so boring and lame, their scenes didn't have the same emotional punch.
Did not like the Meg/Cas pizza talk. I just can't get past the fact that angels are 'junkless', as Dean would say and I'm not thrilled with turning the awesomely bad and treacherous Meg from the early seasons into a sympathetic demon. I'm glad Meg is dead, and I thought the send-off was well done and fitting for a long term character on the show. I've been kind of turned off Meg for a while now, as I thought the character was getting really stale, but she wasn't in this episode, and I enjoyed her.
I only had a few quibbles with this episode -- the Meg/Cas hookup being the biggest one. Either Crowley is 400 years old and the Bobby, Crowley's son, and Bobby getting out of his deal episode happened, or Crowley's now thousands of years old and that wasn't an important episode at all? Another example of the writer's not bothering to watch previous episodes? Whatever, Show.
During the Cas beat-down of Dean; I, too, kept screaming in my head for Dean to just put the danged tablet back in the box. While the scene was exciting, and I loved the back and forth from Cas/Naomi to Cas/Dean, that kind of distraction should never be written in a script. Still, I loved the scene and thought it was done much better than the Swan Song scene, because it was made quite clear that Cas didn't kill Dean because he loves Dean (as a friend, is all I'm saying).
To me, this scene clearly showed that humanity's capacity of love trumps all (or, in Kripke terms, the love of family conquers everything)-- and I think that's what Swan Song was going for and failed miserably at.
I was leery of Robbie Thompson and his tendency to write episodes for support characters, but I thought he did an all-around good job with this one.
The Archangels were supposed to have tracked all of them down and killed them. Abbadon slipped thru the cracks; maybe Crowley did as well by going deep undercover, waiting for the right opportunity? Given that Gabriel was able to hide his identify as The Trickster/Loki, I'm thinking Crowley, as one of the Knights of Hell,, would be able to do the same. That could also explain how Naomi knows him...
Oops, sorry I guess that was njspnfan.
I was actually irritated by the poor mans copy of that scene in this ep. I think it pales hugely in comparison, and does a disservice to that SS scene by trying to imply that what Cas did, and his relationship with Dean are on the same planet as what Sam did in SS and the bond between Dean and Sam.
This was the only bum note in an excellent ep IMO.
Although the Dean/Cas scene was clearly meant to remind us of SS (I believe even Dean's bruises where similar), I wasn't bothered by it. Sam was the most beautiful example of how love and family can beat anything. He beat Lucifer, for Chuck's sake! But it wasn't the first time something like it happened. John overcame Azazel while he was killing Dean. Bobby also overcame a demon and stabbed himself also to save Dean. And his revenge ghost impulse thing for Sam. I believe Cas earned something like this, like real family status. He is Team Free Will after all, and was on SS willing to die with the boys (and did die).
SO many things they got right with this episode.
The brother moments all through the ep.
MEG! Loved her snarkiness. Great lines! Loved her moments with Cas, and FINALLY someone for Sam to talk to (even if we didn't really get to hear what he said, or the fact that it was a really weird moment for a sharing-and-car ing time)
Some great stuff between Cas and Naomi and Naomi and Crowley.
I love Crowley in smaller doses...
AWESOME send off for Meg. She's changed so much from the evil b***h from S1 to the monster with a heart in S8. Dying to help save her unicorn. Fabulous. I hope they don't bring her back again. (Bobby's turn as a ghost cheapened his death, imo. I hope they don't do that with Meg. People and demons die. Let them have a great death and move on!)
I'm a LOTR geek, so the Rudy-Hobbit lines were just excellent.
BUT the entire scene in the crypt between Cas and Dean pulled me right out of the episode. And pissed me off.
They should NEVER EVER try to replicate or tease back to what happened in Swan Song. That episode is the capstone to the entire show - the brother bond that saves the world. There is no copying, no repeating, no shadowing. I was furious after that scene, and it really hurt my enjoyment of an otherwise fantastic episode.
I've calmed down somewhat today, and I'll re-watch this one for some great stuff. Including the hints regarding Sam hitting the dog (yes, I'm still waiting for something!) and the 'what is up with Crowley and Mesopotamia' stuff.
I just wish they'd done that one scene differently. *Sigh*
A bit of fan service, perhaps. "We hear you". Nothing more.
ETA: Doesn't stop me from hoping, though.
I kind of took it as a tongue-in-cheek nod to the fans as well.
[Meg]: "Wait, wait, hold on - there's one part I don't understand...yo u hit a dog and stopped, why?"
[Sam, incredulous]: "That whole story, and that's your takeaway?"
As if saying to the fans - 'that's all you got out of that?'
Makes me chuckle. :)
Although, I still hold out that we could be in for a surprise, do to future spoilers. You just never know.
I kind of took it as a tongue-in-cheek nod to the fans as well.
[Meg]: "Wait, wait, hold on - there's one part I don't understand...yo u hit a dog and stopped, why?"
[Sam, incredulous]: "That whole story, and that's your takeaway?"
As if saying to the fans - 'that's all you got out of that?'
Makes me chuckle. :)
Although, I still hold out that we could be in for a surprise, do to future spoilers. You just never know.
I know that's all I got out of the whole story, and I agree that we're not going to get anything else about it. I'm glad in this episode that Sam told the story off-screen. I certainly didn't want to hear all about it again.
I kind of took it as a tongue-in-cheek nod to the fans as well.
[Meg]: "Wait, wait, hold on - there's one part I don't understand...yo u hit a dog and stopped, why?"
[Sam, incredulous]: "That whole story, and that's your takeaway?"
As if saying to the fans - 'that's all you got out of that?'
Makes me chuckle. :)
Although, I still hold out that we could be in for a surprise, do to future spoilers. You just never know.
I know that's all I got out of the whole story, and I agree that we're not going to get anything else about it. I'm glad in this episode that Sam told the story off-screen. I certainly didn't want to hear all about it again.
I would personally like to of seen it on screen as we have many times with Dean hearing his version of something. As something that clearly affected some of the fans view of him then yes I would of liked to of seen Sam talk about something that isnt predictably off screen. But I come from a different place than others.
However I understand where some see it as a 'nod' to that moment - it was Cas's personal crucible, similar to Sam's triumph over the Devil only in the fact that he overcame powerful mind control with the love of family. But it wasn't quite a 'heroic' thing. This was just Cas finally choosing to do the right thing. Here, he wasn't choosing to save the world or destroy himself for another - he was just choosing to sides. After everything he's done, Cas had to choose once and for all to whom he was going to be loyal. Naomi, or the Winchesters. Heaven, or humanity. Duty, or family. And he chose the Winchesters. He chose humanity. He chose family.
To me it was very significant considering there were several times last season I felt his character had no other recourse than to be killed off. Cas had fallen out of my good graces. Honestly, I had expected him to go out like Meg did this season. But with this choice, with this victory, he's proven himself [to me] once again, and I feel like I am ready for Cas as a regular in S9.
As you said, there was nothing ambiguous - in MY opinion - about the SS scene. It was clear that Sam was able to break through Lucifer's hold on him b/c of his love for Dean. Yes, Sam saw the toy BUT the toy triggered the memories of Dean and his love for his brother. It's not like the toy triggered memories of Sam's love for that toy!
But those who don't care for Sam and don't believe in Sam's love for his brother or the bond btw the brothers will NEVER change their opinions on this, which is fine.
Miles vary as they say.
Seriously, I can't see how you could have any other interpretation ...
I do think the relationship with Cas is on the same level as Sam's. Dean's called Cas his brother multiple times. Bobby became John, so I don't have a problem with Cas becoming a brother. I like him better than Adam, that's for sure.
I also am not too thrilled with Cas being a regular next season, unless he is used sparingly like he has been this year. I just hope that Dean doesn't become the wind under Cas's wings in the angel tablet storyline next season. Dean being officially canonized as "Samwise" this episode has me a little worried about that.
When Cas apparently died in the reservoir at the start of s7 Dean looked a bit sad. When Sam died in AHBL Dean fell apart completely and sold his soul to the devil to bring him back.
When Cas apparently died at the end of s4 Dean shrugged. When he found out Sam's soul was still trapped in the cage he killed himself and made a deal with Death to get him back.
Sorry but the 2 relationships simply cannot be compared IMO.
And now we have Carver and Edlund who have gone on record as preferring and cheerleading the Dean and Cas relationship... what did THEY Do? They coimmited the charector destroying act of having Sam not look for Dean. And then have Dean verbally attack Sam for ten episodes. AND then have Dean tell Sam Benny was a better brother then Sam has EVEAR been in his life.
You know I wouldn't care if only the writers would give SAm his own good friends (see I didn't ask for profound orbest) or someone he sees as a brother (I"m not asking for a BETTER brother...thoug h anyone not declaring Sam s very act of sneezing a betrayal is certainbly better).
Why can't Sam have hios own friend/brother. Then Carver could indulge in his Dean/Cas/Benny fantasies while Sam is with HIS best friend, having adventures and not being told on a regular basis he is betraying his brother and he is a frack up.
I think Swan Song is perfect. A perfect realisation of Kripke's original vision and a perfect representation of what the depth of love these brothers have for each other can achieve. Their love saved the world, through Dean's not leaving Sam and through Sam's powerful love for Dean enabling him to conquer the devil.
And yet, until I saw people talking about the Cass/Dean scene as being similar - it never even entered my head - because, though it had it's own kind of power, it had not a jot of the emotional power of the original scene...for me anyway.
Because for me, Cass beating on Dean and Sam(ifer) beating on Dean are two very, very different things.
So, it didn't and still doesn't bother me because it doesn't feel like that scene at all, so I simply can't see it like that.
It was a very well done scene though - Misha and Jensen knocked it out of the park.
I feel that the writers are trying to force Castiel's character into a new direction but they haven't put in the ground work to develop the character in such a way as the new direction is believable.
My issue with it is they seem to compromise Sam to do it.
Why can't any of the non-blood family come through Sam? Heck why were the blood family, the Campbells who did come in through Sam, declared by Dean to be not family, even innocent Gwen? It bothers me that family is totally defined by how Dean feels about them. I may not have found Amelia compelling as a character, but if Dean is going to be asking Sam "is that the Benny you know?" and acting as if Sam is family, then the woman Sam loved for whatever reason, should get included in Dean's family as well. But, sadly, the show only cares about the people Dean cares about, Sam's family, Sam's friends are dispensable.
in all honesty i see cas and dean not so much as family but i do see dean as cas' charge. he saved him from hell. i feel that cas has always felt responsible for dean. while it's true that a friendship has formed, i don't believe that cas will ever truly understand the concept of family.
dean seems to hold the few friends he has very closely. my guess is that he holds onto them because of all his loss. bobby and now cas. dean has admitted that bobby was like a father to him, replacing the one he lost. sam always referred to bobby as "uncle" bobby and never felt the need to replace his own father.
sam, when he was in college made friends. he seemed to have made quite a few but he didn't obsess about his friends...they weren't his family. dean and his father was his family. the closest thing to family for sam was jess.
dean seems to lack the ability to trust in people. it took awhile to trust in cas. once dean gives that trust, it seems he relates that to family. dean has been programmed into believing the only people he can trust is family.....if dean finds himself trusting cas, then he most likely considers him family...dean only trusts in his family after all.
as for the whole swan song scene as it's being called, i didn't think that at all. the way i saw it ....dean said what he said to cas so cas wouldn't kill him. . dean didn't want to die, least of all by someone he considered his friend. and the reason dean didnt want to die....knowing dean like i do, was because of sam. he didn't want to leave sam all alone, as sick as he is, to face the trials on his own...hell he even said so at the end...that he would be there to carry him. as i see it, this scene was all about dean's survival.
in swan song dean went to sam because he loved him. if sam was going to die, dean was going to be right by his side. dean didn't care whether he lived or died, he just wanted to be there for his brother at the end...so what dean said to sam wasn't about his need to survive. what dean said to sam was all about love. dean never actually said the words i love you to sam.....but if swan song didn't say i love you sam without actually saying the exact words, than i don't know what would. swan song was about brotherly love, plain and simple.
i think there was trust in cas in the beginning, but cas blew it big time with dean and as we all know dean doesn't easily forget. the relationship between cas and dean will never be the same again. dean will never really hundred percent forgive cas for what he did to his brother.
cas has been a pretty unstable character. he's good, he's bad, he's crazy, he's good/bad? dean and sam don't trust cas. that is quite obvious. and cas doesn't trust dean as he admitted that he had to keep the tablet from him. and cas yet again went off on his own.
from the way the eppy ended, the way i perceived it....sam and dean are once again on their own and cas is off with his own angelic agenda. not only that but both sam and dean made it perfectly clear that they do not trust cas and arent even sure if cas is friend or foe at this point.
the feel i got when the show ended, the boys and cas are more likely to be at odds next season, or at the very least ea. busy with their own problems.
and the whole sam with meg and cas with dean thing, it didn't bother me. i totally understood the point of it.
meg was the only person who showed an interest in sam's year. but more important, she raised the question to sam....you hit a dog and stopped, why? now as i've stated, i interpreted that scene as meg saying....why did you hit a dog in the first place? i found it significant that out of everything sam said, that's what made her go hmmm. and i thought it significant that she referred to amelia as a unicorn. a unicorn is a fabled creature. it's not real. there's no such thing. as though sam and amelia weren't real...it was a fantasy....just like cas is her unicorn...a fantasy..someth ing that isn't real and wouldn't happen. after watching and rewatching that scene, i'm totally convinced that meg/sam conversation was yet another clue that all with sam isn't as it seems. i found it quite convenient that meg didn't get to answer sam's question because demons showed up and even more convenient that the conversation could never be revisited since meg is now dead...another happy coincidence in a string of them this season. i didnt' feel that sam was being sidelined, i felt that we were being given another hint that there's more to sam's story.
basically i think misha will have regular status because both boys have kids now and they'll need more of a supporting cast to give them time off. i think misha will have more contact with other angels next season than he will sam and dean. i think sam and dean will still be busy with the trials and the demon tablet.
as for sam admitting to meg that he still longed to be normal, that he liked it, that doesn't mean he wants to be with amelia and not his brother. as a matter of fact, when sam learned he is a legacy to the man of letters i noticed a contentment in sam that he's never had before. he finally can have his cake and eat it too. he can be part of the hunting world with his brother, doing what he loves to do, research and still be able to possibly have a family some day. and he wouldn't have a family with amelia, as he was never in love with her and it was simply a misery loves company based relationship... ...but amelia did allow sam to do normal things and that did give him happy moments...momen ts that i'm sure he'd like to one day be able to do again...with someone sam does eventually truly love and that someone who loves and accepts sam for who he is....a hunter/mol.
and that's all i got to say about that.
I just renewed my hope and love for SPN and that this show is about 2 brothers and THEIR bond that is the specialness with episodes 12-16! The last episode (17) told differently from the comments and reviews I have seen.
I hear that Dean leaves Sam outside from the crypt with a demon after he found out about Sam's condition. I hear that Casstiel and Dean get their special Swan Song scene, I would gouge my eyes out to not have to watch it. It is also for me a sacrileg, a violation of the beautiful and heartbreaking S5 Finale. This is a forced establishment of the Dean/Casstiel relationship because he comes back as regular in S9, the whole scene leaving Sam out! Sam in the meantime get to tell about "normal" and we find out that this is what he wants and likes, this is what Meg captured of him while the poor guy was possessed by her and she forced to kill with Sam's body people. In that time where she possessed Sam he was in real desperation because he knew already something was up where he is involved, he might turn. He tried desperately to do something good, clinged on saving people and beibg alsmot depressive! And now we hearabout Sam wanted normal. Blah!Blech!
I have saved your comment about who Sam is, and how he loves his brother and how he is inherent good! I telling myself that I will watch the last episodes of this season, I am not to much positively right now with S9. I need the SAM POV like a lifeline to continue the series now. I had so much positive feelings about Jeremy Carver taking over I even can't describe how much this changed. Only the last couple of episodes save this season for me (almost) I still miss something important regarding Sam's time after Dean vanished. My feelings right now are that tptb only gave us brother fans the last episodes because we complained to much and now that showrunner canceled the issues (washed over the issues he himself created) for the sake of drama.
I pray (almost lol) that you are RIGHT and RIGHT and Right about your perpective! I will watch the last handful episodes with your words about Sam in my mind, reading it and drinking it like its medicine (sorry for my wording, this happens when I try to write down my feelings regarding SPN, my emotional side comes up and my words in emglish are not adequate enough)
Looking further always forward to your comments even when I am again in pull back position!
Anyway, loved your post nappy, and I totally agree with your take on things.
And I think you're absolutely right, one of the main reasons he did want to survive is because he needs to be there for Sam.
Quote:See I thought that whole conversation weird too-like most Sam's convo's this year. Unicorn. Hit a dog. Interruption is a very convenient spot. To me the whole thing screamed clues.
Sam does seem content, despite is health. I would love it if they could find a middle ground between being only the job and having a life- at least in the future. The is my absolute hope for them.
For me, this show was special b/c of the bond btw the brothers. It was unique and special. Dean wouldn't go to Hell for just anyone. He wouldn't fall apart at just anyone's death. He wouldn't sell his soul for any old person they met. And putting the OOC whackiness of this season aside, the same goes for Sam. Sam wouldn't just fall apart at just anyone's death. He wouldn't get drunk and try to sell his soul for just anyone. No . . . Sam and Dean had a very unique and special bond. Even Lisa remarked that she wouldn't sell her soul for her sister. The point was to highlight, IMO, how unique Sam and Dean's relationship was. Lisa could never understand their relationship b/c she had zero empathy and didn't grow up the way they did. It was a foreign concept to her.
I liked that the bond btw Sam and Dean was special, strong, and specific to them. But with Dean opening up "brotherhood" to every person he meets, the Sam/Dean bond becomes, IMO, less special. Ever since S4, I've found the foundation of this show (i.e., the Sam/Dean relationship) to be on shaky ground, and this doesn't necessarily help in that regard.
I don't mind them expanding Sam/Dean's universe but I wish they would stop having Dean call everyone "family," esp. when the writing doesn't back up the claim. Why does Dean see Castiel as a brother? When did that happen? When they first said it back in S5, I didn't care for it. I haven't even seen the Dean/Castiel relationship develop to that point. I see them as really good friends. We haven't seen much of Benny but I've heard that war-like situations can make people feel like "family."
I guess I don't see why Cas can't just be a good friend. Why is that a problem?
As for Castiel, his brotherhood to Dean is more complex than just fighting together. First there's the fact that Dean will always feel an obligation to him for having pulled him out of Hell. I would like to see them show that bond with Sam too. Even if he was soulless at first, Castiel did try to save him from the Lucifer's pit. Had he not resurrected Sam's body, it is unlikely Dean would ever even have thought to make a deal with Death to retrieve his soul.
Castiel has even reminded Dean about what all he has done for him more than once - "Who but your family has ever done more?" and "Always happy to bleed for the Winchesters."An d that was even before Dean found him again in Purgatory.
I think - and if any of you are military, former military, or military family, you could help clarify this with me - the bond formed by fighting side by side and saving each other repeatedly is as strong as blood - and stronger than blood bonds with people who you do not trust, especially during and right after combat.
Just something to consider as I definitely saw symptoms of PTSD in Dean when he first returned from Purgatory.
When? When did this occur?
In S4, Dean is introduced to Cas in the premiere. Cas threatens in the 2nd episode, takes him to the past and threatens Sam in the 3rd. When did we next see him? Maybe the Samhain episode where Sam got to meet the angels for the first time. And then what . . . he pops up in H&H, right? I didn't see much bonding in the 4th season. I saw more development for Cas a character. He was beginning to like Dean and coming into his own.
In the 5th season, he just seemed to be a part of TFW. He asked for the amulet and then flitted away. Dean got to see how he was in the future, but I think that made him appreciate Cas more for how he was. They worked that one case together and went to the strip club, but it was obvious that Dean was missing his brother. I have not rewatched much of S5, but I don't recall any moments that solidified that Dean and Castiel were like brothers. I remember laughing in shock and disbelief when Cas told Anna that Sam was his friend. LOL! Since when?
And in the 6th season, I felt like Dean treated Cas more like a device he could use every now and then. "Cas, do this. Cas, do that." My favorite Cas line was something to the effect of, "Of course, Dean. Your problems always take precedence." I was happy when Cas said that b/c Dean was, IMO, being a jerk to him. They didn't seem all that brotherly to me in the 6th season.
Anyway, my main point is the writers have not really, IMO, developed their relationship past friendship to brotherhood. I haven't seen it so it feels very false and fake to me. Every time Dean says it, I just don't feel it. It feels like a line. In comparison to him telling Bobby in the dream world that Bobby was like a 2nd father to him - that I believed and felt was genuine.
Being on the same level as Sam is another story. Like you said, Sam is a different category. I believed from from anyone else in Dean's life, including actually family. When Dean had a choice between Adam and Sam, he chose Sam. I think their mom is the only one who comes close to holding a candle to Sam. He loved and idolized John but he and Sam have unique bond that has been confirmed over and over again. And I think think it goes both ways. Which is why the first half bugs me so much. But I really do think something is up there still -so happy thoughts.
It's also why the SS send up bothered me a little but again I put this more on the level of when John and Bobby overcame Demons for him.
What remit is required to prove your love towards Dean in these two similar moments that wasnt there in Swan Song ? .
In this episode, it was Cas looking at Dean's bloodied face and hearing Dean's words which allowed him to overcome Naomi's grip. That's the way it should have happened in Swan Song. So yes, this episode did a FAR better job in my opinion.
The only possible explanation I can come up with for the people who believe as you do is that you are so determined to think badly of Sam, and to diminish the importance / strength of the brothers relationship (so that Dean's relationship with Cas can be shown to be comparable / better) that you are blind to what the writers / actors are portraying right in front of your eyes.
Also Geordiegirl1967 Swan song has always been a bane for Sam haters and it makes me like the episode even more...
They like this scene btw Cas and Dean for two reasons: (1) it doesn't involve Sam, which is always a plus in their eyes and (2) it further strengthens the Dean/Castiel bond, which is miles better, in their eyes, than the Sam/Dean bond.
I've stopped discussing the show (and especially Sam) w/these fans b/c we are coming from such just different places that it's really pointless. When you can put a negative spin on little Sam giving Dean the amulet, then I know I can't discuss the show or Sam w/you.
To me, there is NO ambiguity around SS. I love that episode, and I especially loved Sam overcoming the DEVIL to save Dean. My sister's favorite line is when Sam says, "Don't worry, Dean. I got him." Awww . . . such a great scene and moment that highlighted the great love these two brothers have for each other!
I never said or implied that Sam doesn't love Dean, nor did I say or imply that it wasn't his love that allowed him to break Lucifer's hold. My point is that IMO, the WRITING of that scene fell flat for me because they felt the need to include this toy soldier back story which I don't feel was necessary, and I felt it diluted what could and should have been a more powerful scene. Again, IMO.
You don't have to agree with me. But I am entitled to my opinion. And I think it's quite rude of you to assume that I think "badly of Sam." I do not. It's not about Sam, it's about how the scene was written.
And no, I'm not "blind." I just don't share your opinion.
Not impressed I am afraid on two levels( 1) The writers trying to recreate that scene with Dean and Castiel and( 2) Those using it to diminish Sam's courage and love in that scene .
So sorry to see Meg killed off.
The plot thickens with Naomi and Crowley..
That was a little sloppy of Sam to throw the bloody napkin in the garbage, almost like he was trying to get caught. It was also a little strange that Dean called Sam out on his lying about how he's doing since the trials started in front of an angel he doesn't trust and a demon.
This is the real reason whyI can think Dean wants Sam around.
Maybe the fact that Cas knows Sam in compromised will be significant later. Maybe Cas needs to know this for some reason that will be made clear later.
Plus, it looks like Castiel already knew, and they were both pretty vague so Meg never caught on to what was happening.
I think both brothers have moved away from those hurtful comments since they renewed their commitment to eachother. I don't feel any self serving motives from either brother other than to help! Dean has always had a cavalier attitude, but not in an intentionally destructive way. In this case I agree with JoRuth, I think the writer's intentions are to put honesty as a base for the brothers to build on their relationship. How did you feel about this ep Amy?
Why couldn't Carver just give Sam another relationship and then move the boys in differnt directions? Sam could have gravitated toward the MOL while Dean was the main hunter. WHY attack the very core of Sam just to prop his favorite charector relationship?
I think for me Sam is well and truely dead. I dont know who this Sam is thats running around...probab ly just a 'SAm" Dean snatched from an Alternate Reality world. Or maybe Souless really did grow a whole new soul...amking him a completely different guy. Maybe why Dean kept piling on in the first ten eps is because he KNOWS this guy isn't really OUR Sam. (and would explain the better brother crap) And then somewhere around Trial and Error Dean popped a Prozac or a midol.
Bottom line is Sam winchester is dead and Jared is playing a completely different charector. Pretty much what they did to Iolous on Hercules The Legendary Journeys.
I don't feel like Jared and Jensen are playing completely different characters but I do feel like they are playing characters that aren't written with as much subtlety and understanding as they used to be in earlier seasons.
I know that characters change and develop over long-running television series but I'm not sure that Sam and Dean have done much in the way of growing or developing in the last couple of years. At times, the writing for these characters is almost superficial. I'm not saying every episode has been like that, but I think there's been a steady increase over the last few seasons with this season being the weakest for characterisatio n.
For me, it's like this season's writers are using study notes or Wikipedia as their source material for Sam and Dean rather than trying to develop the plot through a strong knowledge of the characters and their past development.
Robbie Thompson is so good, let's hope he sticks around. The guy is the best at cultural references. This episode had so many of them. All right, I'm going to copy Ardeo and bullet point the rest.
* Dean calling Meg and Castiel Megstiel, LOL. Do you think that was a wink to the fans? I do.
* Sam's conversation with Meg, telling him he'd found his unicorn. She knows Sam deepest thoughts.
* Castiel beating Dean.
* Meg & Castiel's little moment. I love how she can make him squirm with her comments about the pizza man.
* Meg's death.
* Dean telling Sam that he doesn't want anyone lying to him anymore. Finally, I think we'll be getting truth out of both of them.
* Naomi & Crowley. "Tart stole my move".
* "Rudy Hobbit always gets a pass". Oh Dean, love ya buddy.
And I could go on and on.
All the points you point out were my favourite moments in the episode - well, Meg/Cas romance I could do with a little less though the pizza man made me laugh. I loved the final exchange between Sam and Dean. Shows the maturity between these boys like we haven't really witnessed before.
Yes, I do think the Megstiel was a wink at the fans. We do love our ship mash-up names, don't we?
I have only one quibble and it's not really even with the mechanics of the story, it's more with characterizatio n. Was anyone else bothered by the fact that Dean was so upset with the mystery of how Cas got out of purgatory? Um.... hello Dean, you are also hiding how YOU got out of purgatory. Oh, how I wish Sam had mentioned that! Just one little throw away line for the sake of continuity.
To that end, when Dean told Sam in the car that he can't handle any more lies, I hope Dean takes that to heart as well; don't mean to start a tit-for-tat about who's lying about what but just saying that both Sam AND Dean have done their fair share of lying to each other. That being said, I don't think Sam's lying about his condition was done out of malice; didn't want Dean to worry about him and also trying to convince himself he'll be alright.
I guess I don't know what other information Dean has to disclose re: his escape from Purgatory.
So, yes, I do feel that there is a little bit of a double standard going on here. Dean was pretty upset that Cas hadn't told him HOW he got out of purgatory, and yet he himself hasn't divulged even a small part of the relevant information about how HE HIMSELF got out of purgatory to Sam. The sad fact of the matter is that how Cas got out of purgatory (via Naomi and the angels) isn't nearly as sketchy as how Dean got out. And now Dean knows about Cas, and Sam still knows nothing.
Unless Sam asks a direct question about the specifics of how Dean got Benny out and Dean doesn't tell him the truth -- like Dean asking Sam point blank how he's feeling and if anything is wrong and Sam not telling him the truth -- then Dean is lying to Sam about it. But that's not the case.
And Cas knows exactly how Dean got out of Purgatory, so no it's not a double standard either.
All I know is Dean told Sam that Benny helped him escape Purgatory. I just don't know how much more needs to be said about that.
Honestly, if Benny were more of a factor in the show, then I might care a little more but he is such a non-factor. We've see him all of 4x. He's not harassing or bothering Dean. He's pretty much minding his own business.
The moment in the Impala at the end was my favorite moment as well as the mini-fight in front of Megstiel.
DEAN: He's also the reason I'm topside and not roasting on a spit in Purgatory. Anything else?
SAM: Don't pretend I don't get it. I know you had to do what you had to down there.
This was the Show confirming for us that Sam KNOWS how Dean got out of Purgatory. The fact that Sam knows this is also why he hasn't brought it up even once since SC. Not even in this episode when it was the perfect opportunity to do so. But for the writers it isn't necessary for Sam to question Dean about it because Sam knows.
But how Cas escaped IS a mystery. Which is why Dean was written as being upset about it. It's not OOC. Both Sam and Cas are well aware that Benny got Dean out of Purgatory, but only Cas knows how he got out.
In the line referenced, Sam was talking about having to do what you have to do when you are in a terrible situation like purgatory.. he would know, he was in the Devils cage for 180 years after all, so I am sure he understands having to do what's needed in a tough situation and also of possibly feeling ashamed of ones actions. If anything, Sam was trying to absolve Dean of any guilt that he was feeling over what he had done, not an indication that Sam knew anything about the details. That's all that one, insignificant, line was indicating in my opinion and nothing more.
And no Dean didn't want to go into the details of him befriending a vampire in front of Garth, who is a hunter. Why would he? But Sam did, in fact, verify that he knew what Dean had to do to get out of Purgatory.
So IMO Dean isn't lying about the fact that Benny is the one who got him out of Purgatory.
I don't understand why it's so important for some to push this idea that Dean is currently lying about Benny/Purgatory ?
The opening was both stunning and horrifying. I was thinking WTF is going on here... did I miss something? Before I realised it wasn't actually Dean that Cass was killing. Then, later in the episode, when it was happening for real, the tension was just incredible. I kept thinking Sam would intervene, but then it was Dean talking about family that snapped Castiel out of it (wonderfully reminiscent of Swan Song). Just wow!
I did not see Meg's death coming at all. I actually thought she'd be working with Crowley now... that he'd have told her the boys plan to close the gates of hell & enlisted her help. She has switched sides previously. So I was not expecting Crowley to kill her. I'm also a bit dismayed to lose a character that we've all loved to hate (or at least mistrust).
My heart is also breaking for Sam (once again). What did Cass mean? Can he get better? Or is he just going to get worse as the trials continue. I'm so worried
Sam and Dean's conversation in the impala was very well written. I was just about to start sobbing when the mood was broken by the LOTR joke... lol
Anyhow, that's about all I can think of at the moment. I really need to watch it again (and again & again) to take everything in. I hadn't even thought about the Fergus McLeod issue until I read some of the comments here. I will have to ponder that one.
I thought this was a wonderful episode... and I just love this show SO MUCH.
I remember Meg saying something along the lines of "You hit a dog and you stopped?" to Sam, and to me it felt like she was pointing out how ridiculous that sounded. When the shot switched to Sam I was half-expecting him to be in Naomi's room with Naomi yelling at him to convince Meg about it! Also, when Naomi told Cas to kill Dean she said "Kill the Winchester" and not "Kill the Winchesters", with an 'S', and I found it strange that she only wanted Dean killed, wouldn't it make sense to kill both brothers if she wanted all loose ends tied up? Even in the beginning of the episode she had Cas kill thousands of Deans and not a single Sam...Did she really believe that Cas would be able to kill Sam without batting an eyelid? I know Cas and Dean have a profound bond and all that but still, I refuse to believe that Cas would have no problem killing Sam. Maybe Naomi didn't need to kill Sam because she knew she could just order him to get out of the way? And what about Don?! No way he just turns up alive all of a sudden!! Dammit, show, answer our questions!!
Loved this episode, btw
I didn't think of the thing with the singular Winchester or the fact that they didn't have him practice killing Sam. It could have just as easily been Sam who went in that room with him and of course he'd have trouble killing Sam too. Not as much as killing Dean, obviously, but I think Cas still feels a lot of guilt for what he did to Sam. That would have to be overcome as well.
If it wasn't a continuity error, then I think this the best evidence yet that there's more to Crowley, which wouldn't surprise me and would be pretty cool.
I really didn't like the idea of Megstiel because 1 she's a demon who has done terrible things to them and 2 I have trouble seeing Castiel as sexual. 3. It just doesn't go with the nature of the show. BUT I loved that scene between them. I started to get a bad feeling though as soon as the conversation started though and by the time she said if we make it though this, I was pretty sure she was a dead demon walking. That was a good-bye scene if I ever saw one. And a sweet one.
I really didn't think demons could be redeemed on this show, they've always been shown to have ulterior or selfish motives for even the most altruistic arts. But this might have be a change to that flow. Meg was definitely shown as sacrificing herself for them, even after Crowley told her the plan. I've read several times that they thought it was too small of send off for such a long-term character. But for me it was perfect. Anything thing more and it would have looked too poignant for a character that has done so much damage. But she got to have that moment of redemption that really felt right. I thought struck just the right balance.
I also loved that scene between her and Sam-for multiple reasons. One I did think it was nice that someone was listening to him without judging him for not looking for Dean(something I even have trouble with). But I'll admit even more importantly, it seems like a flashing red sign that something is up. First the way she asked the name. And I might be reading too much into this one. But Either Meg wanted the name for nefarious purposes (which seems unlikely given her actions a few minutes later) or the writer was highlighting that the name was important.
The other one, I talked to several people who had the same reaction I did. When she asked about the dog, it was like it was specifically being pointed out that there was something odd with that. Highlighting that we don't know what happened. Maybe I'm reading too much into that because it is what I desperately want but I was the only one who had that reaction. To me it felt like foreshadowing.
Castiel beating the crap out of Dean did feel like a send up to SS. Which I both liked because once again a connection to family and humanity saved the day and felt a little ookie about because it is just such an amazing moment that was based on Sam and Dean's incredible bond and I don't like to see that undercut in anyway. BUT I really don't think it does. Like Georgiagirl1967 said, Sam overcame the Devil because of his love for Dean. This was really more like Bobby or John overcoming a demon, still impressive sure but not the same as Sam's feat. And what was just as impressive about the SS scene is that Dean went there for no other reason but out of love for his brother. He didn't have any reason to hope, but he couldn't let Sam be there alone. But that was enough to defeat the Devil, it makes me tear up thinking about it.
But that was a nitpick it a fabulous episode. I loved it.
Looks like they've laid the groundwork for Castiel's return in S9. Very curious how this Crowley / Naomi thing is going to play out, and to get a little more on their backstory/histo ry. Clearly, Crowley has been around a lot longer than 400 or so years, at least in one form or another.
The ending with Goodbye Stranger playing was great; Cas on a bus to nowhere with the angel tablet. A great conversation in the car between Sam and Dean; they're in a much better place than they have been in a very long time. No anger, hostility, or bitterness at all. Night and day from the first 1/2 of S8.
Mentioned this in an earlier comment but it bugged me during the second go-round. Very sloppy of Sam to drop the bloody tissue in the garbage; he'd been very careful covering things up till now; just wondering if, on some level, Sam wanted Dean to find out what's really going on; Dean knew something was wrong, just not the extent of Sam's illness.
i thought it bittersweet sam telling his story to meg. that's a conversation that he should've had with his brother. i find it a little sad that meg was the only character who ever took in an interest in sam's year off.
but, i also found it very thought provoking as well. i'm pretty sure a lot of you know where i stand when it comes to sam and his unaccounted for time. i've thrown theories and hints at you on previous posts supporting my belief that there is more to sam's story than what we are getting. last nite, my spidey senses started tingling again.
my biggest question of the night was, how come after 17 episodes did the writer bring up sam's year? nobody was interested before and it was brought up in an eppy with naomi, crowley and cas. all demons and hinky angels accounted for.
then there was sam's question, which was my question as well...after sam told meg his entire story about the sam/amelia debacle, meg had one question....it was the dog...sam hits a dog and then stops...that is the only element in sam's story that meg took notice of...she almost, imo, seemed suspicious. what i really took note of was that just when sam asked about her question, conveniently she hears something and guess who shows up.
then of course even more conveniently, meg gets killed. so if she did know something or suspect something, she is no longer around to tell sam about it.
i also found it quite interesting that sam withheld amelia's name..he spilled his guts about everything else, what's the difference what her name is?
after watching tonight's episode, i'm convinced even more that sam hitting that dog wasn't simply an accident.
again in this episode, mind manipulation playing a major role. and dogs again....this time a very specific dog and i'm not talking about crowley's hell hound either.
as for sam, i pretty much was convinced that he made sure that dean found out something was wrong. i get why sam couldn't say the words. you say it out loud and then it's true...so he kept what was wrong to himself...but that doesn't mean he didn't, in his own way, tell dean something was up. in rtt sam's speech at the end was a clear indication to dean that sam was afraid. and last nite, sam could've just crumpled his tissue and stuck it in his pocket...but he did not do that, he instead just threw his tissue, not even crumpled by the way, in a trash can, in the same room his brother was sitting in. he left it at the top of the pail...so it can be seen. so imo, sam was telling dean what was wrong in his actions, not his words.
and i have to agree that dean needs to take his own advice about lying. he's still lying to sam about benny. i'm sorry but dean did not come clean ..telling sam benny saved his life...he didn't say how or anything like that....but then, that's not the real lie anyway.....the real lie is the fact that dean let benny out of purgatory....th at's what he needs to come clean about with sam...otherwise as it stands now, dean is the pot calling the kettle black.
i get the feeling that dean will come clean once benny makes his return debut. either that or benny will spill the beans to sam. either way, my guess is sam will have his day to gripe, which he's due for imo anyway....
again a well written episode...this was the first eppy in a long while where we go from x to z with the actual y (why)... i'm referring to the segue into sam and meg's conversation. first you have the scene with meg and cas....then you go into the scene with sam and meg....i thought it was brilliant writing bringing up her past possession of sam. it's true that she would know his inner most dreams. so her interest in sam's year made sense as well, along with her sympathy as she feels she's in the same kind of boat....so kudos for the scene making absolute sense.... now if only they would go back and do that for the first half of the season, which imo, is not that unlikely. ;D high hopes in tact folks....high hopes in tact
I don't know how you've reached this conclusion, but Dean is not lying about Benny or Purgatory. Dean told Sam that Benny was the one who saved him from Purgatory. Sam also confirmed that he knows that Benny was the one who saved him from Purgatory. As Sam said to Dean during their discussion about Benny in Southern Comfort, "I know you had to do what you had to down there."
Sam knows what Dean had to do because Dean told him what he DID, and that Benny helped him escape Purgatory. So no, IMO Dean isn't the pot calling the kettle black here.
I don't think it was an outright lie but, to be honest, Dean has been very evasive about the whole Purgatory / Benny thing. He never really explained how he got out; in Southern Comfort, when Garth asked him, Sam was all ears waiting for an explanation but Dean changed the topic.
Mentioned this earlier but I think this gets to the common theme of perception in S8; many fans like Benny because they saw him save Dean's life and prove himself on the battlefield. Sam never saw this, nor did Dean ever really explain this other than his brief comment that he saved his life. Also keep in mind that Dean was very evasive when he went off on his own to help Benny take down his old nest.
Not looking to pile on here, but IMO Dean's was a lie of omission.
In the back of my mind, I'm just wondering whether the reason Dean isn't telling Sam the whole Purgatory/Benny story is because, deep down, he knows something is fishy about the whole thing.
There's only so much Sam can say about the boring Amelia. He pretty much did nothing the past year. Dean very likely told Sam how Benny got him out of Purgatory. Even if Dean didn't give Sam the specifics, Sam knows what he needs to know: Benny helped Dean survive and escape Purgatory while Sam was going on picnics and running over dogs!
Dean has been honest w/Sam about Benny and Purgatory. What else can he tell Sam?
Yes, but the problem is we never heard the conversation so we don't know what was said; you are making assumptions here; you could be right, could be wrong, I'm only going on their conversations on screen. I guess we can agree to disagree here.
You didn't find Dean evasive about Benny/Purgatory in the first half of the season?
However, if we're accusing Dean of lying to Sam, then I think Dean has said everything he needs to re: Benny and Purgatory. I don't feel he has lied to Sam about that situation. It seems like Dean told Sam the most important parts (i.e., that Benny helped him survive and escape). Someone quoted the dialogue above, so we know Sam knows that Benny helped Dean get out of Purgatory.
What else does Sam need to know? That Dean carried Benny in his arm? Is that what Dean is "lying" about? I'm not being sarcastic; I just honestly think Sam knows enough that Dean can't really be seen as "lying" to him but that's JMO.
I feel the show has moved on from all of its earlier plots. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that is how it appears to me. I doubt we'll see Sam and Dean discussing the specifics of Dean's escape from Purgatory just like we'll probably never hear from Sam why he thought Dean was dead IF that's what he thought. The show appears to have moved on.
I also think the writers like Benny. They don't seem in a rush to explain him or expand the character. Will we even seem him again this season?
Benny is a non-issue, IMO. I've never had a problem w/Benny. I thought he might be Dean's "Ruby," but that's not how it played at all. In my eyes, Benny is a vampire just trying to make it. LOL! That's honestly how I feel. I don't consider him evil or bad.
as for dean, in my opinion he's telling sam half truths regarding benny to paint benny in a favorable light. the bit of information dean left out is the most important detail...it means everything...it 's the dealbreaker. dean's omission is just as big as sam's was, when he failed to mention to dean that while he was hunting lilith with ruby, he was also drinking demon blood to gain his strength..... different song, same record.
you know who else told half truths?
naomi
benny
zachariah
ruby
uriel
john winchester
they all told half truths in order to get the winchesters to do what they wanted....it's called manipulation.
whether consciously or not, dean is doing the same thing to sam now...he's trying to manipulate his way of thinking when it comes to benny....dean is keeping from sam the most important detail in dean's escape from purgatory...and if sam knew that bit of information, i believe with all of my heart and soul that he would confront dean and he would point out the obvious....that benny didn't help dean out of the goodness of his dead vampire heart, he helped dean so dean would help him get out of purgatory....be nny used dean and imo that's how sam would see it. it's all about misperception again...dean keeps saying that benny got him out...but in actuality, dean got benny out...literally ....benny just provided the info that was given to him.
anyhoo, enough about that .....
as for never getting the truth regarding sam, i'm not of that belief at this time. i have reason to be hopeful because of a spoiler i've seen. now it's just all based on my opinion, but this spoiler has me feeling on the optimistic side ....it might not do the same for others....it could be just me....but with all the clues i've seen this season, and the new info i've read, i just have this shimmer of hope inside me that some of us just might get what we've been hoping for.
Benny is definitely one of those issues I wish the boys would just sit down and calmly discuss. Because Sam doesn't have any reason to trust him and Dean is asking him to. But Sam seems determined NOT to trust him and maybe if Dean knew why they could come to some reasonable outcome. Maybe he could even allay some of Sam's fears or Sam could convince he is not to be trusted. But since they both could win gold in obfuscating and bullheadness, I doubt that is going to happen any time soon.
Quote: Then by the same regard there’s very little Dean can say about Purgatory, ‘We fought the whole time’. Shur, that’s about it, really. Everything else Sam had already been told.
And Sam did more with his year off than just run over dogs and have picnics. He tried to live an actual life for that year. He found love for that year. Okay, it might have been monumentally boring to some people (but let's face it, life is boring, but people still manage to fill the world with conversation about it) but I’m sure that Dean is interested enough in his brother and his brothers life to want to know what he did and how he got on.
And if people only told each other what they needed to know we'd be living in a world that would be pretty much devoid of conversation!
"We fought." "We escaped."
"We fought or actually she bitched at me for no reason." "We bought a house." "We broke up."
Done. Neither conversation should last long, but Dean's would probably be infinitely more interesting than Sam's sorry tale.
And I can just never view Sam's time as "normal" as all that new and interesting for Sam when he did that for 3 1/2 years when he went off to college. For me, this is not interesting, new territory to explore w/Sam. Sam's lived normal before. I know others disagree b/c of YED, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Sam had normal and lost it. He had normal again and gave it up. It's just not riveting or intersting material IMO.
With Purgatory there's only so much you can tell because there’s a huge element of sameness with Purgatory. Dean had to do the same thing again and again. He interacted with very few people. We don't know how late in the game they found Castiel so unless there were towns or bars or real estate agents or some sort of social life there then there’s not really an awful lot you can say.
Also, at that stage Dean was hesitant to talk about both Benny and Castiel. It wasn't until 8.06 that Sam (via Garth) questioned him about how he got out so Dean certainly wasn't talking about it in that episode (8.04). And if he pulled that 'need to know' stuff with Sam then it's really no wonder that Sam is skeptical of Benny because that attitude has been what has put them and their relationship in the crapper.
Quote:And ironically, if Sam's year off went the other direction, with him tearing apart heaven and hell looking for Dean that wouldn't be new or interesting either because it was done before.
From what I saw, Sam's life w/Amelia was pretty normal and, ultimately, boring. If my life were a tv show, it would have been canceled by now. Haha! I lead a pretty normal, drama-free (YAY) life. In my eyes, nothing interesting happened w/Sam. If he had been suffering from severe depression or had suffered a mental breakdown, that would have been more interesting to me. If he had started drinking or obsessing over Dean's disappearance, I would have been more interested. If he had been tearing apart H&H looking for Dean, I definitely would have been more entertained. I was hoping Sam would hook up w/some new hunters in his search for Dean but that didn't happen. We just saw Sam and Amelia living life, and I gotta say I would have rather seen Dean's life - in spite of its eventual repetitiveness - in Purgatory than Sam's life topside w/Amelia.
When Sam would have an Amelia FB, my eyes literally glazed over. This is the first season where I actually flipped the channel a couple of times during Sam's FBs and the earlier episodes in general. I also found my mind drifting during the Sam FBs. I have watched soap operas before, and Sam's life w/Amelia wasn't even interesting on a soap opera level. It was all very boring. I have no desire to watch any of that again.
I feel - and this is just my opinion - that very little thought or interest was put into Sam's storyline. Carver didn't want him looking for Dean (which would have been in character and more interesting) so he stuck him in a very boring relationship. I think we were supposed to see them as clinging to each other because of their overwhelming grief but we didn't see that. If it had been more overt and clear . . . if they met drowning their sorrows in liquor . . . if Sam actually talked about Dean in the FBs instead of being Amelia's sounding board . . . if I saw grief or loss or something, the story would have been better. I'm not sure what they were going for but it failed for me - whatever it was.
The Amelia story was completely pointless, IMO. A complete waste of time.
And when I mentioned Sam having normal before - I was mostly speaking about those who have defended the story by saying it presented a new side to Sam or shed some light on his character. I don't agree w/that view. I feel Sam has had normal before with Jessica; others disagree. Ben/Lisa was new for Dean; it wasn't interesting or good, but it was new. Amelia or Sam being in a stable relationship for a sustained period of time was not new material. It also doesn't help that the story, itself, IMO, wasn't presented in an interesting or engaging way. I don't see this Amelia story as having done anything positive for "Sam." It's been quite the opposite actually. Carver's arc for Sam has really damaged the character. It is now canon - unless Carver retcons it - that Sam abandoned Dean when Dean needed him most. . . that he moved on w/o so much as a thought about Dean or what was happening to him. Supernatural is no longer the story of TWO brothers who would be willing to die for each other, but rather the story of what ONE brother is willing to do for the other. That kills me b/c I KNOW Sam would die for his brother. I KNOW Sam would investigate Dean's disappearance and Carver should be ashamed of himself of ruining Sam in this way! He thoroughly screwed over the character and either doesn't recognize that or doesn't care. It really doesn't matter which.
That's why much the first half (1-11) of this season will ALWAYS be OOC crap in m eyes.
I found Dean's Purgatory FB much more interesting than Sam's Amelia FB. I found Sam's love for Amelia's character inexplicable because the whole thing wasn't well written. And I particularly *hated* the writers deciding that Sam wouldn't look for Dean and also deciding that the brothers had decided they wouldn't look for each other should something happen to one of them - this idea fundamentally undermined one of the strengths and attractions of SPN for me: the strong bond and loyalty between Sam and Dean, and their willingness to do anything to save each other.
As you said, the strength of this show, IMO, is based in the lengths these two brothers would go for each other; it is in their willingness to literally DIE for each other. Why did Carver mess w/that? Why did he ruin it?
The Amelia story can't make up for what Carver did to Sam! We lost something but gained nothing. It's frustrating!
as far as show is concerned, (not as far as i'm concerned because i still think sam did look before he convinced himself or was convinced that dean was dead,) sam believed his brother died. sam didn't know dean was alive and in purgatory and just decided to leave him there...that's not what happened at all.
abandonment is dean's issue. he's the one who always looks at it like people abandon him. but if you really think about it, sam wasn't the one who left dean....dean left sam. now i'm fully aware that it wasn't intentional, but let's really look at the way things happened.....sa m stayed, dean left. and it's not the first time dean left sam alone either....he's done it to him before in s3....but you never once heard from sam ....dean you abandoned me or you left me. no, this is dean's thing...and sam is always being punished because of this little issue of dean's.
do you think if it had been sam that disappeared and carver decided dean didn't look, that he believed sam dead and he did what he thought sam would want him to do, be normal, live safe, be happy, do you think sam would've come back and made dean feel like crap and accuse him of abandoning him?......imo, no freaking way....sam would never do that...sam has never done that ....sam doesn't look at people dying as abandoning him.
i've stated this before...especi ally after watching a little slice of kevin...all this resentment dean was carrying towards sam, i think it was more about him and what he was feeling. dean was the one who declared to cas that he didn't abandon him in purgatory. i don't know, it just seems to me dean was transferring his own guilt onto sam.
what i've noticed for the last 8 years is that dean has a tendency to see things the way he wants to see them, but that doesn't mean he's right.
do you realize that we're up to eppy 18 and dean still hasn't shown any interest at all in sam's year. he hasn 't asked sam anything about it, unlike sam who has shown an interest in his brother's time in purgatory.
you stated that this is a story about only one brother who'll do for another and that statement just boggles my mind. imo, sam has done more for dean than anyone ever has or ever will.
sam has died for his brother and he's willing to die again. why do you think he took over the trials? he did it because he wants his brother to live. he wants his brother to see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. there's more than just dying with a gun in his hand. you think sam doesn't love his brother? that he wouldn't do anything for him? sam has done anything for him. he's still doing anything for him. do you think there's anyone else who would take the burden of the trials away from dean? i don't think so. damn well better believe benny the vamp wouldnt'
now i think there's more to sam's story you know that...i believe he looked and either failed to find dean and thus convinced himself that dean was dead...a defense mechanism. i think that it's easier for sam to believe dean dead than to believe he's somewhere and he fails yet again to save him. he imploded and then he ran. that's why he was drawn to that atrocious amelia in the first place imo....he couldn't save his brother so maybe he can save her....i think it also explains why sam tells dean he thought he was dead in one instance and then in another he's not sure if he's off buying a taco somewhere....bu t mostly i think it explains sam's silence the whole first half of the season while dean griped incessantly about sam not looking and taking time off for a girl....i think sam would prefer dean's wrath rather than his disappointment. especially after the whole sc rant and benny is a better brother speech.
or....sam was looking for dean and started coming dangerously close to finding out about the tablets and someone did a bit of mind manipulation on sam, making him believe dean was dead. i'm leaning towards this simply because someone was spying on sam and sam knows more than someone who quit hunting should know.
here's one thing i'm sure of. sam loves dean. he's shown it in ways that no other can ever come close to doing. sam is such a strong character, but he isnt invincible. sam can break. dean is his touchstone and when dean isn't around, sam doesn't always handle things very well...this time was no different. the first time sam lost dean he ran right into ruby's arms...now sam ran again...only this time he was running from his life...his pain...his loss...and the very fact that he ended up hooking up with someone out of sheer desperation and the need to save someone screams out to me how negatively dean's loss affected sam and how truly broken he was. sam wasn't happy with amelia. she was the driftwood he was clinging on to so he wouldn't drown in his own pain. that pain which was caused by the loss of his brother.
i'm sorry but i don't and will never see sam in a negative light. i think sam winchester is an amazing, strong, loving, flawed character who loves dean more than he loves himself. and not carver nor anyone else can make sam anything less than perfect in my eyes.
gosh i needed to say that....,
so i guess we can just agree to disagree on that one point lala... i really hope my faith in the fact that i still believe there's more to come regarding sam and this mystery spy and all the other inconsistencies during the first half and some of the second half of the season, is justified and that show will redeem itself in your eyes.
i just want you to know that i do understand that it's the writing as leah pointed out that you are disappointed in...i do hope you don't see sam in a negative light, i hope you see him the same way i do....cuz he's looks mighty fine in my light.
It is only so so sad that I need to read such beautiful posts about him and his love to his brother while in the episodes his POV is so much neglected. Missing important moments of Sam are cutted out and not shown, while the MAIN POV character is accusing and resenting him although because of his own faults and flaws. There is the big unbalance for me!
I still didn't watch the new episode of SPN because I read the reactions of fans, I would like to close my eyes and ears for a particular scene where Casstiel is involved and Dean. Maybe someone could tell me the exact start and end of this scene so I fast forward, because I don't want to witness it!
If they are trying raise the status of Castiel since he is going to be a regular next year. (I don't think they can ever actually raise him to the status of Sam, regardless of what they do-and I'm not sure they are really trying) They've only succeeded strengthen his relationship with Dean and not with Sam at all. (this is not a criticism of this episode but of the overall status of Sam and Castiel relationship)
I truly believe the this is a huge problem going forward, I've mentioned this before in another thread but I really really really believe they need to develop the relationship between Sam and Cas, since he is going to be a regular. It makes no sense that the only secondary character only has a relationship with one of the leads. Especially since they should be able to relate in a way that Dean and Cas can't since Cas and Sam have both made huge mistakes while trying to save the world. I loved that scene in RiF between them. I don't know why we don't have more of those. It would definitely help my issues with Cas' character. I like him a lot but he does have at tendency to encroach on the Sam storyline and the Sam and Dean relationship. IE Dean talks to him and Sam talks to no one typically (although I he did talk to Meg in this episode and Sam and Dean have been talking A LOT more which is my favorite thing anyway
On the practical side, if they don't increase the Sam and Cas scenes and instead continue to have Dean be the intermediary for all discussions. Then Jensen will have very few breaks in filming. And as a new father, I'm sure he'll need them.
In my eyes, they have a working relationship and that's it. They are not friends, and it doesn't seem like the writers are interested in making them friends. Sam tends to fade to the background when Castiel is around, and I expect for that trend to continue. Castiel and Dean share the "bond" and the "deep friendship." Dean is the one calling Castiel "brother" and "family." I doubt Sam feels that way about Castiel but who really knows since Sam rarely, if ever, voices his opinion.
This is why I want Sam to get a friend outside of Dean. If Dean has Sam and Castiel and Charlie and whoever, then Sam should have one other person besides Dean to talk to about his feelings, etc. But I know that is not likely to happen. Sam's only friend is Dean, and the writers seem determined to keep it that way.
Castiel has been on the show since S4. It's been 4 years, and he and Sam are still just business associates. I thought Sam and Castiel could bond over Cas's turn to the dark side, but that didn't happen. It would have been nice to see Cas actually apologize to Sam for breaking his Wall when Sam was lucid and could understand him or to see them discussing the situation. That would have helped forge a real relationship btw the two, but the writers didn't go there.
I don't know. It just seems like Cas is Dean's "special" friend. I don't think the writers want Sam and Cas to be friends. If they did, then their friendship would be more clear.
And if Sam did think Dean was dead, why wasn't he a tad more excited when Dean reappeared? He honestly looked like he couldn't care less that Dean was back. The Season 8 reunion hug was the most lackluster hug the boys ever had, including the one in S6 w/SS.
And why didn't Sam answer Dean's question? Dean flat out asked Sam if Sam looked for him, and Sam doesn't say anything at all! If he thought Dean was dead, why wouldn't he say, "No, Dean, I didn't look for you. Don't you get it? I thought you were dead and in Heaven. Why would I look or try to pull you from that place? I just decided to move on w/my life." Oh no . . . Sam evaded the question completely, and then when Dean mentions a girl, Sam basically agrees that he hooked up w/some chick instead of looking for Dean.
I'm sorry but Dean had every right to be upset w/Sam. Sam made it clear that he didn't know what happened to Dean and that he didn't bother to investigate the situation or look into what happened. That's the problem. Why would Carver have Sam say and do this? It makes no sense. If Carver had Sam investigate and then get no intel or investigate and find out Dean's in Purgatory and there's no way to open the gate, then I would have been fine w/Sam moving on w/his life. But that's not what Carver wrote. Carver expects me to believe that Sam didn't even try to investigate Dean's disappearance, that he just took Dean's disappearance as an unexpected gift and went on to get the life he always wanted.
Nope. I don't buy it. I don't believe it. That is OOC crap. That is NOT how the Sam Winchester I've been watching for years would act! It just isn't. I choose to ignore the bad writing for Sam.
But that's me. Many won't. Many will take this season's actions as evidence that Sam doesn't love Dean as much as Dean loves Sam. You and I have seen it over on Supernatural.tv . And while I don't agree w/those who feel that way, I can't say I don't understand why they're reaching those conclusions. Carver's story didn't do "Sam" any favors. Under this story, one could logically conclude that Sam wouldn't go to the lengths Dean would. One could say that Dean loves Sam more than Sam loves Dean. That's my problem w/the story. I hate that it's not canon that Sam abandoned Dean in Dean's time of need. That sucks b/c it directly contradicts who Sam is. And the worst part is Carver doesn't see the problem! He trashed Sam for no reason.
Thanks for sticking up for me
IMO Sam's flashbacks were pointless because you never got any real insight as to what happened to him during that year. Yes, his world imploded, he ran, hit a dog, met a snarky vet but the writers did a poor job of showing this. Then again, IMO the whole Dean/Lisa/Ben thing wasn't that interesting either so maybe the writers have trouble writing this kind of relationship stuff. Contrast that to Dean's purgatory flashbacks which were very well written and well done. As with Dean, we're not getting the whole story of what happened with Sam, Don's sudden reappearance at about the same time Dean got out of purgatory, the mystery person outside of Sam and Amelia's house when he left the last time, etc.
In S6, when Soulless Sam was hunting with the Campbells and they were capturing monsters for interrogation, Soulless Sam never questioned this but Dean immediately knew something was fishy and asked where are they taking the monsters and why are they torturing them?
Also keep in mind that it took almost all of S6 to get the truth and find out that it was Cas who got Sam out of Lucifer's cage and "raised him from perdition'.
So, after this rather long ramble, my point is I hope we find out a more about this. Inquiring minds want to know.
I guess I just have no faith in the writers b/c I don't expect more for either story. When I think about the earlier stories, this old song comes to mind: What you see is what you get.
I'd love more insight but I'm not expecting to get any. Anyway, that's JMO.
this season is totally different from every other season imo. the writing this season has been deliberately ambiguous. the inconsistencies have been blatant. the clues have been obvious. carver said that this season was based on perception. from what i've seen so far, nothing has been obvious in the writing at all this season...only sam/dean's love. sam supposedly not looking isn't all that black and white obvious to me. sam has told dean two different things on two different occasions. what it comes down to is ...i'm not sure sam didn't not look...i'm under the impression he actually did...see what i mean, the way sam is being written it can be either. but i feel with all the other inconsistencies and clues it's leaning more like he really did look. this isn't the only time either...sam has been written in such a way that makes you wonder if something is up with him. sam hasn't been able to answer simple questions asked by dean. sam knows things one would'nt know if he'd not been hunting for a year. people are spying on him. lots of coincidences too. and it's not only with sam's character either. other characters have also been written in the same manner. like benny. a lot of people think he's good. i totally believe he's bad news. it's the way he's written...that both of are perfectly understandable assumptions.
this whole entire season has a double entendre feel to it. there hasn't been one episode this season told in a straight black and white fashion. every episode poses another question. i've just gone through all the seasons and no other season has ever been written this way . that alone leads me to believe that what we think we are seeing isn't necessarily what we are actually seeing.
1) Dean escapes Purgatory, but it seems he doesn't mention Benny because Sam didn't know Benny was a vampire until he shook his hand in Blood Brothers. People have mentioned that the kids heard Sam and Dean talking for hours about the previous year, since Bitten is before Blood Brothers I conclude that Dean didn't mention that he escaped with anyone, let alone a dead vampire that he then resurrected. As a parallel in season 4 Sam is hunting and passes Ruby off as a ONS. Dean knows Sam has kept hunting but knows none of the details. Sam finds out about Benny, but AFAIK
2) Sam finds out about Benny but Dean gives no details about the escaped. The conversation on Benny in SC
Quote:From this conversation we KNOW that from the second Sam met Benny Dean has not spoken, at all. The only information Dean gives Sam is that 1) Dean believes he would still be in Purgatory without Benny and 2) that he considers Benny a friend. WE have seen what happened in Purgatory, but Sam has no idea how or why Benny helped Dean get out. Whatever they talked about in that conversation in Bitten, it wasn't Benny the vampire or how Dean got out of Purgatory. This is underlined when Garth asks Dean how he got out of Purgatory in this same episode again the transcript
Quote:This leads me to the conclusion that Sam wants the answer to that question as much as Garth does and Dean isn't telling.
This parallels when Dean discovers Sam using his powers and working with Ruby. Sam tell him that Ruby is training him to use his powers to exorcise the demons and save the hosts, but leaves out the blood drinking.
I have seen lots of criticism of about how Sam was lying to Dean in season 4, but season 8 Dean is behaving about Benny pretty well the same way Sam did about Ruby. For me, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If we count Sam withholding information from Dean as lying, then Dean withholding information from Sam is also lying, IMHO, and in very similar ways.
Because if Sam still wants to know more information about how Dean escaped Purgatory, all he has to do is ask Dean one night as they're hanging out in the Batcave. Easy enough.
that could change though if a situation arises in which sam and dean are at odds again regarding benny....then i could see sam wanting, even demanding answers from dean about purgatory. personally, i think at some point sam is going to finally ask dean why he's keeping benny such a secret.
jmo of course.
I think it was you who said in another post that Benny's only redeeming feature will be if he is in fact a villain; (was that you?) If so, I agree with that too. How totally lame will the entire purgatory story become if Benny is the most special, glittery, heart of gold vampire who only wanted to live and help Dean and be the first vegan vampire in the history of the world? Ugh, and yuck; it doesn't even make any sense given what is going on in the rest of the show. In order to make the whole situation even remotely compelling or relevant to the current plot lines is to have Benny be at the very least manipulating Dean or more satisfyingly working with Naomi, Crowley or the Alpha Vamp (are we going to see him this year?) and against the brothers. His character makes no sense otherwise. Now, I like Benny, I really do, but I don't want him to be "good" just for the sake of fan service and because he's popular. His character must have a larger purpose that is relevant to the show, and it makes more sense the way things currently stand for him to be working against the boys.
I thought that was funny, but didn't know if it was a pop culture reference.
Anybody know?
Crap... I feel old for knowing this.
ETA: I didn't know that njspnfan. Funny. But I still miss these kinds of Deanisms.
Oooh... In looking that up mid-post (LOL), I see it's an erroneous "quote" from Julius Caesar. So add that to Portia and "lend me your ears." Wow, they're really pushing allusions to Julius Caesar!
But that doesn't help much with "chicken dinner." I wonder if it could be some sort of "Sandman" reference in hunter-speak... a la Colonel Sanders or something?
It SUCKS that they killed Meg. I kept hoping she would disappear; or Cass would come save her. But I missed Misha's teaser. Where was that????
Also - and maybe this is just my crazy mind - but didn't we learn somewhere along the way that a few of the original demons were the angels that chose to follow along with Lucifer when he left? Am I misremembering?
I think we are coming closer to a reveal about what Sam did after Dean vanished, because it seems to get mysteriouser and mysteriouser! Thanks to Meg. I know some of you are holding absolutely firm on us never finding out any more than we already know - but I still have hope. More hope now that Meg said that about the dog.
And Sam being damaged in ways Cas couldn't heal. Sniff. But then S&D talked about it!!!
Loved all of your bullet points. I was LMAO. This was my favorite episode of the season. Although I have only seen it once.
i think this is just another in a long list of hints we've gotten this season. i'm not of the belief that it was just the writer teasing the audience, what for anyway? i just don't think these writers go out of their way to leave what have been obvious hints just to play with the fandom's heads ......i still think the writers are giving us clues so that upon a reveal, it will seem natural and more believable and not just a retcon, because if we rewatch and pay close attention, we'll see that we've been getting hints all along.
that's just me of course.
I think it's more likely that he's just a much older demon than we realised and he has alliances in heaven. He was biding his time until the other powerful players were out of the way. How this came about, and why, is definitely mysterious.
I'm also not phased about the Fergus issue... I think that he was probably just a cover story for Crowley. I mean, we know something is not quite right there because he didn't die when Fergus' bones were burned. At the time, I thought Cass just burned someone else's bones. But maybe not.
It is very intriguing that Crowley and Naomi know one another... and can I say it again... I just love Jeremy Carver's vision for this season. I can't wait to see where he takes us next
Meg: ‘Shut up, Meg’ – ha! This was actually the first episode she didn’t annoy the crap out of me in her new body. Her face when she told Sam she ‘got it’ actually touched me. But the things she has done to Sam and Dean and those they love in the past...now I know she has been helping protect the Winchesters and Co. since last year, but she admitted it was out of self-preservati on as Crowley was killing Lucifer’s people. She did help with the Leviathans, but on balance, I think it is fair to quote Meg herself, ‘Hi, I’m Meg. I’m a demon’.
Crowley: For my part, I don’t think Crowley’s an angel, I have to say. If he was, wouldn’t at least one of the various demons, creatures and angels he has come across said SOMETHING about that? But demons do switch vessels all the time. Who’s to say he didn’t have one in Mesopotamia before he settled on the current one? And I agree with st50. Crowley is better in small doses. *ducks*
Metatron: I shall always think of Metatron looking like Alan Rickman. Any Dogma fans in the house?
Castiel: OK, my crazy theory of the week? I think the tablet made Castiel human and a prophet. There, I’ve said it! It definitely changed him, as the demon tablet changed Kevin. It lit up when he took it and he was hanging on to it like Kevin did. Maybe Cas used his last bit of mojo zapping out of there. And then he was travelling by bus. Why? OK I guess it could be to not alert angels. But if he were still an angel wouldn’t they be able to find him anyway?
Subatomic level: Ooh I do like your ‘Sam coughing up demon blood theory’.
Dead Deans in teaser: Total shock. I think that was one of the few times I’ve ever gasped out loud BEFORE the title card. *shiver*
Lucifer crypts – Agreed. What crypts? Which crypts? Why crypts?
Angel warded box: Put the tablet back in the box! Such a good point, Ardeospina! I didn’t think of that but I WAS sitting there thinking ‘Dude. It’s warded AGAINST angels. Think about it. Taking it out may NOT be the best plan’.
Cas and Dean fight: The first time I watched it, the end annoyed me as it was way too similar to Swan Song for me, and I felt it undermined the whole pivotal point of the world being saved by the bond between two brothers. On rewatch, I didn’t mind it as much. Jensen always kills me with emotional scenes. Still feel like it was disrespectful of Swan Song and Sam’s sacrifice, though.
Porn: I had the same thought as some of the commenters above on the distasteful, overdone joke. Not funny, male writers. Move on.
Happy ending: I think the Js talked about going out in a blaze of glory before Sam and Dean had each gone out in a blaze of glory. Several times! My (current) ideal ending is for Heaven and Hell both have their gates closed (so that souls can only ENTER them, rather than exit) and the Winchesters be left with only the run-of-the-mill monsters. Sam could become a uni lecturer or researcher or do a PhD (!) and be an MOL. Dean could open a restaurant or a bar or a classic car place and maybe be a hunter guru type person. They could be left some old rambling property by Bobby (legal stuff thus far has kept it hidden, you understand) and they could both live there with their partners (sorry, I’m still in the Kumbaya Singing Group!) and Cas could live there if need be and an assortment of various hunters or MOL could be staying at any given time. Yup, totally cliché, but I am firmly on the depressing is not good’ team!
NOOOOOO! Do not make Cas human. That would be the worst thing that could happen. I do want him to be the bad guy and to pay the price for the bad things he's done to Sam and Dean and the angels he killed and all the people he killed.
And taking on Sam's hell didn't cut it for me. He didn't suffer as much as Sam did so it's not even comparable.
The angels weren't nice guys during seasons four and five, but that was mostly due to management who had a specific notion of what should happen to humanity. In season seven, Raphael wanted to restart the Apocalypse, but again that was mostly on Raphael. Gabriel played with people for his own entertainment. For the most part, with the exception of the Archangels, all of whom are dead or missing, the angels left humanity completely and utterly alone. They spent thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years letting people just live their lives, hurting no one.
And then there is Cas, who killed half the angels because they didn't agree with him. I like Dean, I like humanity. If I went crazy and killed half the world and then I found a way to imprison the rest of it, I would be a monster, even if I had been convinced by a brave, good looking member of a different species who had become my friend and who was working to protect HIS species from the attacks of our armies and who had won the war. Most of the angels have been like Hester, and Samandriel foot soldiers in a war they didn't start and not doing anything to the majority of humanity. So if Cas suddenly decides to destroy his own race by doing the angel trials, I will not see him as a good guy. I will see him as a race traitor and he will be despicable to me.
Now, if the angel tablet makes life good and wonderful for the angels, then it won't bother me, but Cas has already damaged his people enough. I can't root for or want him to damage them further, especially because on the grand scale, they aren't doing anything against humanity at this time. Being dicks does not warrant exile, or extinction.
I am beginning to think that heaven and hell aren’t constructed as we imagine it to be. Just bare with me as I shove my thinky thoughts through my fingers but be warned I only have questions!!.
When you look at Naomi and Crowley, clearly there is some ‘procreativeâ €™ (for want of a better word) history between them from Mesopotamia days. Now there must have been a time before Lucifer fell when all supernatural beings such as Naomi and Crowley were on the same page (not enemies), which explains the Naomi/Crowley hookup. This suggests a time before, when hell didn’t exist and angels and demons weren’t enemies. It is reasonable to assume then, that heaven was conceptually different to how it is being portrayed too. Maybe Naomi and Crowley are from a period when they were neither angel nor demon? If this is so then this seriously brings into question the angel and demon tablets.
I am just trying to piece together the heaven/earth/he ll history aspect and the creation of the angel and demon tablets. We need to look at why there are both angel and demon tablets. Did one ‘being’ make both tablets? If so why were they trying to save both heaven and hell. Maybe the same ‘being’ didn’t make both tablets. What possible reason would whoever made the tablets have to protect BOTH heaven and hell!! ?
We know that both tablets are written in Enochian and they look the same, i.e. they are carved from the same rock. We also know that something happened long ago to separate these tablets so that Lucifer was protecting the demon tablet and left it on earth in a crypt (clearly hell couldn’t be trusted with it?) I totally forget now who had the angel tablet and where it was located but I know it must have also been on earth somewhere (clearly heaven couldn’t be trusted with it). So what the crod does this all mean.
I am beginning to think that heaven and hell aren’t constructed as we imagine it to be. Just bare with me as I shove my thinky thoughts through my fingers but be warned I only have questions!!.
When you look at Naomi and Crowley, clearly there is some ‘procreativeâ €™ (for want of a better word) history between them from Mesopotamia days. Now there must have been a time before Lucifer fell when all supernatural beings such as Naomi and Crowley were on the same page (not enemies), which explains the Naomi/Crowley hookup. This suggests a time before, when hell didn’t exist and angels and demons weren’t enemies. It is reasonable to assume then, that heaven was conceptually different to how it is being portrayed too. Maybe Naomi and Crowley are from a period when they were neither angel nor demon? If this is so then this seriously brings into question the angel and demon tablets.
I am just trying to piece together the heaven/earth/he ll history aspect and the creation of the angel and demon tablets. We need to look at why there are both angel and demon tablets. Did one ‘being’ make both tablets? If so why were they trying to save both heaven and hell. Maybe the same ‘being’ didn’t make both tablets. What possible reason would whoever made the tablets have to protect BOTH heaven and hell!! ?
We know that both tablets are written in Enochian and they look the same, i.e. they are carved from the same rock. We also know that something happened long ago to separate these tablets so that Lucifer was protecting the demon tablet and left it on earth in a crypt (clearly hell couldn’t be trusted with it?) I totally forget now who had the angel tablet and where it was located but I know it must have also been on earth somewhere (clearly heaven couldn’t be trusted with it). So what the crod does this all mean.
Quote:A really cool pondering you had :) But one correction. Lucifer had the angel tablet, he (or his demon knights) hid it in his crypt. The one Dean and Cas went to retrieve, from the angel guarded box?
So, Lucy had the angel tablet. What I'm wondering is, does that mean that the angels had the demon tablet? And if so, how did Crowley get his hands on it? That piece of information hasn't been answered (yet?). Or maybe the demons had the demon tablet all along, or maybe Lucy stole all the tablets once he started his plans to rebel and hid them all in different places? Hmm... thinky...
But it is intriguing that Lucifer had the angel tablet. And it is intriguing to guess why they were made. Maybe God created them so that if demons (or angels)would get the upper hand on his pets (humanity), that there would be a way to repel them back to their original home (heaven & hell).
Hmm... this season does raise a lot of thinky thoughts, even if it makes you bang your head against a wall sometimes :)
oops you so right. What I am trying to figure out is why both tablets were created. Clearly something must have happened long ago that needed to protect both heaven and hell, but from what? Were the tablets made simultaneously by one 'being' or were they created separately. I cannot imagine a scenario where both tablets were necessary. There must be something else to protect heaven and hell from it seems to me IMO. What do you think?
What I am getting at is this. It looks like there is either a 'place or force' that needs protecting. If the tablets are instructions to close the gates of heaven and/or hell, then surely this is because they (heave/hell) are a danger to something. Or it might even be perceived to be instructions to close the gates in order to protect what is inside?
And Dean may have a higher standard with Sam because he is his actual brother ... yeah, Cas hurting him is bad and Dean gets mad at him too but to have your actual brother you've protected, fought for/with since you were a kid is going to leave a bigger scar. It's not necessarily fair to Sam but brothers don't always get along, it would be unrealistic for them to be on the same page all the time not to mention boring.
I don't find it out of balance for Dean to refer to Cas as family. It doesn't mean that he's forgiven Cas for his actions. But just because someone you care about disappoints or hurts you greatly, it doesn't mean you stop caring. This is true especially when they strive to fix what they did after recognizing the wrong, like Cas did. Dean and Cas are brothers in arms, been in this battle and through a lot together so to refer to him as family and to have that emotion come to the forefront over any of the palpable tension and mistrust that has obviously been between them all season doesn't feel that unbelievable to me. Nor does it say anything one way or another about the relationship between Sam and Dean, because one has nothing to do with the other - they are separate in and of themselves, built on different foundations with their own complicated histories.
So what Sam will be forgiven or not forgiven for can be totally different than what Cas will be forgiven for. And hell, we can probably throw Bobby and even Benny in there too - have them commit similar crimes against Dean and they could have wholly different reactions and forgiveness timelines. Every relationship dynamic is different.
dashnjo, in answer to your question: no, I've never had a friend who I was so close to that I considered them family. But it could be a cultural thing: I'm Irish and, in my part of Ireland, we have very, very strong family ties (possibly a little too strong, some might say because we can be insular at time LOL). We tend to see the world in terms of biological family comes first, rest of the human race comes second
I thought the writers did a good job of making Bobby seem like family to the Winchester brothers. They took their time and they built up the relationship. Of course, it helps that Bobby didn't do some of the nasty things that Cas has done to the Winchesters, I'm not as forgiving as Dean (or Sam, it would seem) when it comes to Cas
Wow good theory. But then how did Cas manage to heal Dean then if he is no longer an angel and only a prophet. Maybe it is possible to be both an angel and a prophet?
Like how you think though coz something happened. Why would Cas need to protect the tablet from Dean though? Perhaps it is Dean that gets to do that tablets trials? I had a feeling that when the tablet lit up, Cas was 'damaged' like Sam was when he accepted the trials. So maybe Cas gets to do the trials. Next few weeks are going to be one heck of a ride as we only have something like 5 more episodes!
This whole Sam vs Dean and Cas hate sucks all the joy (and tears sometimes) out of the show for me and I'm tired of it. it's draining and childish. Not everyone, of course ... trying to figure out the whole Crowley/Naomi/M esopatamia thing is interesting and trying to theorise about what Cas is going to try and do with the tablet and what his mission is is interesting. But the rest is just tiring to someone who loves both the brothers equally and for different reasons and Cas as well ... they've all had their downfalls and picked themselves up and moved forward even if it takes a while for that to happen. Oh no! Dean likes porn! So do most men ... yeah he's a big hero dude but he's still a man. I'm not a fan of porn or anything but I'm not offended by it either.
Anyway, I wish that more people that weren't taking sides would post more often but maybe they too have decided to stop looking at the comments.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. This site is certainly intended to be a safe place for all to comment without worrying or feeling they can't comment for these very reasons. I hope you'll reconsider - you have good points in your comments and your contributions are important.
I think I started the "Dean and porn conversation." I just wanted to say that I don't intend for it to be bashing Dean's character AT ALL, or the show. I LOVE this show , have loved this season, and Dean's always been the brother I relate to most in terms of sibling interactions. I didn't intend to offend or "suck the joy" out of the show for anyone. And I'm not personally offended by it, I just enjoy the conversation about social responsibility and implications of an issue that has at times irked me.
I hope, like Sam, you'll return after your Swan Song and come back for another round.
I, like you, have occasionally taken time-out from reading reviews/comment s... but I miss it when I do. So the way I've come to terms with it now is to apply my own filter to what I read - if a comment strays into Sam vs Dean territory, or is implying that the writers are trying to make Cas/Benny the better brothers, or complaining that we never see Sam's POV or Dean's POV, I just don't read them.
This way I can still enjoy the speculation about the myth-arc of the season; especially this year when there is so much great stuff to discuss. Jeremy Carver is really keeping us guessing... and I love this so much.
I hope you can get back to enjoying/contri buting to the comments some time soon. Take care
I'm just putting this out there but I'm a Cas girl, however, that being said Sam and Dean are the heart and soul of the show and if they wrote off either I would watch only because I'm invested but it would never be the same. Not ever and in the end, it wouldn't work. I watched the first three seasons without Cas and loved it so i would be upset if they killed him I'd still keep watching. Obviously I'm pretty stoked I don't need to worry about Cas until the of next season but for all we now it might be the last season ... shudder. I know Carver has a plan to get them (Sam and Dean at least) and I hope he gets to realize that as Kripke got to see the show through to end of season 5 with his grand plan.
Anyway, guess I went off on a bit of a tangent but thanks to all of your comments ... I will try and not get down because of anyone's comments which are really just concern for the show that we all love. xo
I'm not bashing Dean for the porn issue, I'm stating that I dislike the writers using the porn issue as lazy and sexist characterisatio n of Dean. I'm also saying that I dislike the writers' use of sexist language and humour that demeans women. (I'm also enjoying discussing this issue with other commenters and getting the chance to read their viewpoints on the matter).
I don't see SPN in terms of Sam v Dean, I like both brothers equally, I see them as flawed heroes but one isn't better than the other.
Cas is not a character that interests me much but I think the writers have had some good storylines for him and some bad storylines for him. Me expressing my feelings about the character of Cas are not intended to be argumentative or to make anyone else feel upset, or annoyed, about a character that they enjoy.
I hope you're feeling less unhappy today. WFB is a great website because it's civil and polite. People feel free to discuss things and, whilst people agree on some things they also agree to disagree on other things - that's why I really enjoy it here
The Kurds are from Iraq. And in ancient times (and apparently fairly recently - up until 1922 ) the area of the middle east that contained Iraq was called Mesopotamia.
Crowley and Naomi were off doin' whatever it was they were doing in Mesopotamia (and that could have been after the whole Scottish story), an interesting coincidence.
Also there is ancient legend that Lucifer wasn't actually an angel but a king of Babylon who was thrown down into the pit by God for some transgression or other. Guess where Babylon is/was? Yup, Mesopotamia. (yes, I know everything confirms that Lucifer is an angel but still I like the connection - maybe Lucifer was hanging around on earth pretending to be a king and that's what got God angry with him in the first place)
What does any of this prove / suggest / imply? No idea...
Maybe Lucifer created the knife and gave it to Lillith, who gave it to Ruby, then it went to the Winchesters. Maybe the reason that Naomi wants Castiel to keep an eye on the guys is because she wants to keep an eye on where the knife is. Maybe the reason Cas is keeping the tablet away from the guys is so it is away from the knife? It may be needed for the trials?
Maybe Naomi didn't want Sam using the knife so she brainwashed him into quitting hunting.
It is interesting that the demon killing knife didn't kill Crowley - does it have to hit the heart or something? Or is Crowley immune for some reason?
(thanks to ST50 who helped me brainstorm all this, we agree we are likely totally wrong but it was fun anyway)