So, okay, that was a filler episode. There are plenty every season, and that's fine. I totally understand that. I do. Just, this episode was not great, and it could have been. Filler episodes can be really awesome. This one...not so much. I'm not flames-from-the-side-of-my-face angry, but I'm a little disappointed. It was more like "Meh's Best Friend With Benefits." Meh. There were some fun moments, but overall probably not an episode I'll rewatch much, if at all.
But before I get into tonight's episode, I want to talk about a theory that popped up due to last week's episode. Since Alice kindly took my review last week, I didn't get to talk about it, but I am gonna fix that tonight! Thanks to Bookdal, who talked about this theory with me at its inception. BRAAAAAAHM!
Crowley Theory Of The Week
In "Trial and Error," we got what seemed to be a throwaway line about Crowley not explaining the rules to Ellie, and Dean passed it off as Crowley being a dick. I don't think that's the case. Well, yes, Crowley can be a dick, but that's not what I mean. Crossroads demons have a protocol to follow, and all the other ones we've seen have followed it. You explain the rules and convince people to sell their soulds anyway. That's how it works. They're kind of sticklers for the rules. And Crowley, the supposed king of the crossroads, well, he'd definitely know that. Some fans, myself included, have wondered if Crowley isn't more than what he seems. I think he is. I think he's an angel. But more than that, I think he's an angel UNDERCOVER in hell. So him not explaining the rules? That was just him not exactly doing it right, not quite maintaining the perfect demonic cover.
Not only do I think Crowley is an angel, I think he's one of Naomi's CIANgels sent to hell to work undercover down there. I think he's running a very long con. Why does he know Enochian? Why are his eyes red? Why was he torturing Samandriel, you may ask? Well, he still has to keep his cover, after all. OR he's an agent gone rogue and he actually is a demon now. But I think it's more interesting if he's still on heaven's side, just working from a very different angle. I mean, can you imagine? We'll see how this plays out through the rest of the season, but for now, I'm curious what you all think of this. Like it? Hate it? Am I crazy?
If Secret Keeping Was A Town, Sam And Dean Would Be Co-Mayors
I'm not sure I buy Dean's whole "I don't think you can do the trials, Sam" trust issues. It just doesn't seem to follow what he said to Henry in "As Time Goes By" about how awesome Sam is as a hunter. Because we all know Sam can DO the trials, it's just that Dean doesn't want him to have to go through them. So, what I would have totally bought instead was the following (very poorly written but you get the idea) scenario.
Dean: I'm worried that you're going to be hurt or killed during these trials, Sam, and I can't handle that because I am Dean and have abandonment issues, so don't die.
Sam: Dean, I understand that you are worried about me, but I can do this. I need your help, but I can do this.
Dean: Duh, of course I'll help you. Just please tell me if you're hurt or sick or start coughing up blood or something so that I can help.
Sam: *coughs up blood*
Dean: What was that?
Sam: Nothing, I'm fine. *keeps secret so Dean doesn't worry about him*
Now you've got Sam keeping a secret and Dean worrying so it can all blow up in their faces later, like it ALWAYS does. In fact, it would be kind of refreshing if there were no secrets this time and they just went through this together as best they could, but ha, that's a pipe dream. No secrets? Scandalous! Also, did I miss the part last week where it said only one person can do the trials? Aside from Sam and Dean saying it, I mean. I may have, but I was under the impression initially that they just needed to get done but not by one person in particular.
Anyway, on to the rest of the episode, bullet point style!
- Dean hates witches sooooo much. I love it.
- Is the alley in the cold open the alley where Dean was vamped? It looks like it.
- Arguing about the Three Stooges...aww, brothers. "Lame-assiest" hee.
- WAS CHRISTIAN CAMPBELL AN ACTOR IN THIS EPISODE?!?! Yes, he was James! He's also Neve Campbell's brother, as one of my Twitter friends pointed out. Did anyone else think that was a very amusing name coincidence?
- "That was incredibly hot." "It was kind of hot."
- No, that"™s just wrong, going after a blind guy. Come on.
- Portia is raising an interesting question about who helps you if you"™re a witch or creature and you"™re having problems? Wouldn't it be kind of awesome to have an episode with a supernatural shrink?
- Also, is it weird that my first instinct was Porsche not Portia? People name dogs after cars! What? I know she's not just a dog, but still!
- Look, the whole having sex with your familiar thing was, yeah, weird and uncomfortable. I'm glad Dean mentioned that fact. The first time. Maybe the second. But he didn't need to keep harping on it. We get it. Move on.
- Sex scene? Why? We could have had some kissing and whatnot, but that was just really awkward and not really necessary.
- I wasn't surprised that Spencer was involved, guessed it when he said it wasn't possible to mind control other witches, but was it me or did his motivation come really out of left field?
- I understand that they're trying to expand the methods the Winchesters have for killing things, I really do, but here's the thing. If Bobby had a witch killing spell, maybe that could have been used as a threat against Patrick when he held those years of Bobby's life? Maybe? You know how you work around that? Sam found the spell in the Batcave in one of the MoL books.
- Old-school conversation in the car to end the episode, nice.
Comments
As I've stated elsewhere - I did not like this one. I would go so far as to say it felt like a waste of my time. It felt on par with the worst of S7, which was pretty freaking bad.
I found the attempts at humor to be sick, not funny, and not creative. To make it worse, the pacing and characterizatio n were very poor, IMO.
But worst of all is I found myself asking throughout the episode: "why should I care?" And the question was never answered. Filler...throwa way? Yes. Unfortunately. I give this one a D. :(
The writing was atrocious! The dialogue was absolutely terrible. I first starting throwing foam TV bricks at my set, then it expanded to me shouting explicatives while doing so, and then I just wanted to barf come the middle of the episode. This was my show? The pacing was outrun by a snail, the brotherly behavior was cliche, Sam and Dean's drama about Sam doing the trials was more fake than a $3 bill, and I couldn't appreciate the one good scene, the ending one, because by that time I was fuming! This is how you build on a story that was finally picking up momentum?
How in the world did this ever make the final cut? This is easily the worst of the season, and now these writers have outdone themselves in that they've finally written something worse than "Route 666."
Several times when Portia was talking I just shouted at my TV: "Nobody cares!!" And it wasn't the actresses fault - it was the way it was written and how the dialogue got in the way of the pacing of the episode. I also shook my head so many times, wondering aloud: "Who wrote this?!"
Ugh. I'm disappointed. This one did not live up to the quality of the rest of this season - or any season.
I'm totally band-wagon venting now though, therefore I'm going to stop, hold my peace, and start looking forward to next week.
Sure, I was bothered by some of the issues mentioned above, such as the drawn-out sex scene, but they were minor issues. True, it's not going to be one of my favorites, but as a filler episode, it was good fun! I can understand that the brand of humor wouldn't be a hit with everyone, but it gave me several snort and guffaw moments. Jensen was superb with his comedic facial expressions and timing.
One thing I would like to say respectfully, Alice, is that while I look forward to reading opposing viewpoints and critical reviews, the language you've chosen in this particular comment is insulting to those of us who liked this episode. Do you believe that I do NOT know a bad episode when I see one? You're entitled to that belief, but I would suggest that as an administrator, you are expressing opinions as an authority. When you choose to express your opinions in such absolute terms, it suggests that no other opinions are valid, and those who disagree can feel a bit alienated. I don't want to sound unappreciative, because I am grateful for the work you all do for us, but I want to offer my perspective in this specific instance.
The dialogue had a few weak moments, but was overall more natural and better paced than the painfully awkward "Torn and Frayed". Yep, you read that correctly! There's an episode where I wanted to barf because it felt so uneven and out-of-characte r to me. When I read so many positive reviews, I gave it another chance to see if I was missing something... I wasn't. Still not for me, but it actually makes me feel better knowing that other fans enjoyed it, because I know that the writers succeeded for someone. Hopefully when your anger has subsided, you can feel better knowing that there are fans out there who enjoyed this episode, even though you didn't. This one was for me. :)
Quote: Wow, really? I think even the administrator should be allowed to voice an opinion on a show, whether it be good or bad. I don't think she was telling people to hate it because she did. Everyone's entitled to their own views about an episode, this is why I like this site so much. I read all the comments, good & bad, and yes sometimes it helps you understand an episode better than when you first watched it.
The purpose of the "Let's Speculate" thread is for fans to come here and give their initial reaction. You got mine! I do recall me coming here other weeks with glowing praises, so I am allowed to hate episodes every once in a while. And I really hated this one. So because I'm an administrator I'm not allowed to have an opinion? I've been pretty honest with my reviews ever since I started doing them in season three.
Also, going back to my review of "Torn and Frayed," I do believe I had issues with it as well. It was a mixed bag for me. I'm definitely okay if there are ones you don't like. Everyone's opinion is different, and all are welcome. That is the foundation of this site.
Thanks to everyone who responded; I'm glad there is a place left on the internet where we can disagree with a degree of civility!
Of course, I stand by my thorough enjoyment of this episode, which I liked more than the flawed but mildly fun "LARP"...
Quote: You're absolutely right. I almost went to bed halfway through, and I'm sorry I didn't. The writing was just atrocious. The whole episode just felt dialed in. Don't think I'll be rewatching this one until the DVD's come out. And even then, maybe not. Paint me very unimpressed.
They still could have had Sam be pysically affected by the trials without the earlier trust issues cropping up again. Dean came across as a foot stamping child 'but I wanted to do the trials' more than concerned big brother all because the writers used his much over played trust issues. Seriously if Dean is so untrusting of everyone and only trusts himself why isnt he just hunting on his own? Its starting to get boring.
I'm also feeling more and more certain that the entire writers' room lurks on Livejournal fiction comms. That ep was badly written, "we know what's going on" fan fiction. I usually don't mind the fan fic, and this season has been full of it, but I felt that this episode was an example of lazy, ill-thought-out writing. I hope something good comes of it.
Their episodes lack the creative spark I expect from our Supernatural writers. Are they just a bad fit for Supernatural? Because they have a long list of writing credits that is impressive, especially being the creators and writers of Scarecrow and Mrs. King. Maybe their writing simply hasn't progressed to the level that Supernatural now enjoys?
I'm sure being Bob's wife has a lot to do with it. Favoritism rules everywhere, but especially in Hollywood. However, if their work was really concerning to Warner Brothers, they would have been gone by now. Apparently it isn't.
As far as "worse than Route 666", ha!, I personally think that some whole seasons are worse than that. Actually, I liked it expressly for the interactions of the boys, which were delightful. Didn't care much for "demon truck" but I actually liked Cassie! Must be the only fan that did! Sam teasing Dean about Cassie I never get tired of watching. The sex scene either!
Just shows how our perceptions as humans differ from each others
By the way, this episode was not really top notch in any way except the acting and the production. The writing, sigh!, so out of whack when compared with the previous episodes leading up. Hope next week is way better.
Best part? Sammy and the dog.
second time through. Enjoyed the dialogue between Sam and Dean. Thought the acting was good.
The last 3-4 episodes have been extremely good, so this is much more laid back as far as revelations about the future for the boys. But it was OK.
The dog/girl and witch/man relationship was not something I was used to but it was done pretty tastefully and as Sam said to Dean "It's been 15 hours and you haven't told any bestiality jokes" Loved the smile on Deans face.
Liked the honesty between Portia and Dean-he curious and she answering. Nicely done and for all of our benefits who were curious.
I would have like more of James back story visually in the episode so we could see the reason why he turned to witchcraft. That absence made it hard for me to get into James as a character. It wasn't until he started to use his powers for psycho projection and fighting Spencer that I began to like him more.
I think I would move my estimation of this episode up a notch after watching it the 2nd time-from 5 to 6. The episode with the mannequins is a 3 for me and the meta episodes are all in the 8-10 range.
It's especially sad since this comes after a run of spectacular episodes that have me feeling giddy for the rest of the season. I feel let down and I don't like that feeling at all, because Supernatural normally makes me feel enthused and anxious for what next awesome thing that will happen.
I guess the good news is next weeks episode will be better...like it has to be, right?
Good news is I can go to bed. I have no desire to rewatch or discuss this episode futher. If I wasn't working tomorrow morning I'd rewatch another Supernatural episode to help me remember the good times and how fantastic if feels when they are firing on all cylinders!
B.J.
Hey, that's true, I'll be in bed before 1:00 am for once!
Quote:I've always rooted for a hunter/shrink. In addition to supernatural creatures, who do hunters go to when they have issues. If you tell most shrinks you see ghosts, demons, etc., they will call you delusional and not be able to treat the real issues. See Martin and Sam and Dean in the asylums.
Quote:And
Quote:Fingers in ears lalala I can't hear you. That was just a woman who likes to wear a dog collar and call her boyfriend master. Nothing to see here, move along.
Quote: Completely out of left field. I was hoping the jealous police guy was an undercover witch.
Quote:Or the Campbell library! They hadn't met the Campbells' when Bobby got hit with the spell and Bobby integrated the Campbells' library with his after they all died, if they wanted to mention Bobby.
I have always thought Crowley wasn't just an ordinary demon. Which pretty much guarantees that he is an ordinary demon, BUT I like the idea that he is a CIAngel who has gone rogue because he didn't like the way heaven was going. He stopped the torture in Hell when he first took over and turned it into an endless queue. I think Naomi may have gone rogue and Crowley is trying to restore a balance, but that's just because I like Crowley and I can't figure out what turned him from a witty King of Hell who shut down the rack into a torturing demon.
I do agree that the dialogue at the beginning of the episode was like the way the Vampire Diaries has gone: "Well Sam, as you remember, 'cause it just happened, and you were there at the time, you are now bound to do the trials and it will all go horribly wrong' etc...
(Dear SPN, don't take these sort of writing tips, we can remember stuff, honest).
Horrible!
Essentially, I liked the brothers scenes, but the writers did nothing to make me care about James, so the episode did not work for me. I would not have cared if they killed him. Add that to the ICK factor that you all mentioned, and it was not a great episode. However -- I liked the joking between the brothers, bickering about the stooges, Sam knowing how hard Dean was working to refrain from the tacky jokes, and the scene at the end when they talked. And, yes, the preview clip is still funny, even after seeing they did not do much to build around it. Like I said - not one of the best, but I don't think it hit the depths os Route 666, or Chuck Forbid, Time for a Wedding.
Question - the actor who played the lead detective - is he the same actor from Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things?
But all in all, I'm with you, not much besides the brother's talks and interactions held my interest much in this episode.
Kate was the girl who got turned into a werewolf in S8's "Bitten." The brothers decided not to chase her down after seeing what happened to her, and how she didn't choose what she became, and how she promised not to kill again.
I'm just surprised that given the fact that they dealt with a fairy being controlled and a witch possibly being controlled and haven't worried about heir buddy, Cas, who they think is being controlled. They were so worried at the end of Torn and Frayed they put up angel sigils just so they could talk about it and now nothing except maybe trying to contact him?,I'm glad they're on the same page (although I'm worried that Sam won't tell Dean he's not really doing well, I'm not really not really surprised) but its kinda frustrating.
lol, I love your sense of humor.
This episode was kinda okay for me. I mean they did give us three back to back awesome episode. So I am willing to cut them some slack. It did have some funny moments for me.
And I liked the brother scenes, but this wasn't really was I was expecting after last week. I thought the acting was good by everyone but they didn't have much to work with. There were a bunch of little things that were kinda irritating that maybe wouldn't have been as noticeable if the episode had been better, such as has Dean ever been allergic to cats before? I think I'm with you it was sort of Meh.
On the Crowley theory, I really liked it but I'm still a little on the fence about though. One really good thing about would be, if they do close the gates of Hell then Crowley has to go bye bye if he's a demon. But if he was an angel he could stick around and I do like him tormenting the boys.
Problems off the top of my head. Why would he have been so worried about his bones burning in WaB in he's an angel he wouldn't have bones. And he had a son in that episode. Plus wouldn't Cas and the other angels be able to tell he was an angel?
Ardeospina, I do appreciate the review and find your ideas about Crowley very intriguing. I am sorry for being so negative but after last week, which I thought was one of the best this season, to have this episode follow was disappointing to say the least.
How did this script get accepted just awful writing!! This one I will not be downloading, it may come back to BITE them, pun intended!!
Ardeospina, it has to be done by one person, at least that is what I understood... "Who so ever choose to undertake these tasks, should fear no danger, nor death....." Pardon my English, but one thing is understand what people say and other to write it down.
By the way, I enjoy the episode, I didn't love it, but was nice to watch.
A problem area for me - not including race and beastiality - is the interchangeable use of Wiccan and Witchcraft.
Witches fighting each other by shooting rays with their hands? Oh, please... This is another show entirely.
If you are a Wiccan, your magic is so powerless that a normal human wannabe serial killer can kidnap your son and you need manly men to save him because you are but a weak woman who does not deserve powers.
Also Wiccans are mostly good because the writers realized their portrayal of witches ticked off the people who practice Wicca as a religion.
Sorry, I've been ticked by the sexist treatment of witches since Patrick the man-witch appeared and was just allowed to leave and keep taking people's lives because he was being fair, while the witch who died saving Sam and Dean was damned to Hell.
It felt very flat to me. I kept checking the time, when it would be over. I skipped some scenes (I usually don't ever skip scenes), the intro, the second (obligatory) death and the sex scene. Just no.
At first I though Portia was cool but then she just became needy and annoying, "My Master blah blah blah". Why did they have to go with the "sleeping together" angle? To get motivation for framing him obviously. Why didn't the witch guy just try and kill him in the begin with?
So, what's the difference between a skinwalker and a familiar... Maybe you're born a familiar, not turned? Are you born an animal or a person? Maybe familiars can just shift into one animal? Ah, I just really don't need to know, it wasn't that interesting.
Also, as soon as the jealous cop came on screen, I zoned out trying to figure out in which eppie he was in earlier. I mean really, the reusing of previous actors is really starting to pull me out of the moment! Not always but when an eppie is this dull, it happens really easy. So I had pretty much no idea what was said during those PD scenes...
I had serious issues with Sam and Dean aswell. I mean come on, just last week, Dean showed that he had faith in Sam when he gave him the spell and let Sam read it, hence, do the trials. And now he's sure that Sam just fecks it up? Okay, according to what? Shouldn't these issues have been brought in to the open, oh I dunno, last week when itwas a bit more current? And easier to stop? I just felt him whiny when the milk had allready been spilt. Sam did the spell. You gave your "okay" for that. Now deal with it. It felt very reminiscent of earlier seasons, but not in a good way. Have some faith in your bro, dude. If you gotta fret, then fret about what the trials will do to him. Not that he will screw up. Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophesy?
And Sam. *sigh* If he does tell Dean about the "side effects" of the spell, I'll be shocked. More than that, pleasently suprised. But I have this (sinking) feeling, that he won't tell Dean, "to protect him" or "so he won't worry about me". Or just because he thinks Dean will be proven right (Sam won't be able to do the trials), which given Deans track record, is very very possible. So, Sam will most likely not tell Dean. He will yet again, keep Ãt a secret. And what good will that accomplish? Geez, it's like season 7 all over again. Either he will keel over eventually at some point and hurt himself --> Dean will be worried and pissed, or he will keel over during a critical poin and Dean will get hurt --> Dean will (eventually) be worried an pissed. He should know better. After EVERYTHING.
So, another conflict, yay. Also it was beyond ridiculous to have Dean declare that Sam was okay and literally 4 seconds later Sam coughs up blood. I just rolled my eyes.
Okay, positives...... er....Okay. The Astral projection bit was cool. And the special effects.
Er, that's about it. Not rewatching this one. *yawn*
Did it affect his job?
if its bad enough to tell Dean then surely it would be bad enough to be noticable without having to tell?
Would Dean tell Sam if the boot was on th other foot?
What exactly can Dean do about it?
"was it the first time Sam had coughed up blood after passing the first trial?"
I'd assume. Who knows. I'm just assuming that he will keep it to himself. As long as he's not throwing up all over the place in front of Dean, he'll try to hide it. If they prove me wrong, great. But I doubt it.
"Did it affect his job?"
No it didn't. But again, I'm talking about what might happen, in the future (what I'm dreading). Because it always has worked in their disadvantage when they keep stuff like this from one another. So, I'd like them to learn from their mistakes, just once. In season 7 once Sam decided to be truthfull about the Hellucinations, Dean didn't crumble to bits or chew him a new one. So he can handle that information and go from there.
"if its bad enough to tell Dean then surely it would be bad enough to be noticable without having to tell?"
Okay, not sure if I understood this one right, but this reminds me of " I didn't lie, I just didn't tell you." Which is pretty much a lie anyways so...
"Would Dean tell Sam if the boot was on th other foot?"
I don't care if Dean would tell or not. The question is, if Dean did have a secret like this, would Sam want to know? And the answer is, yes.
Instead of shielding each other from these secrets, they could try to walk a mile in the other ones shoes. The way they handle things haven't really been healthy, so maybe they should try a different approach.
"What exactly can Dean do about it?"
I don't expect him to do anything. But Kevin did warn them that it will be torture with a side dish of bloody, so this shouldn't be a suprise. Dean will be worried, he will be pissed, no matter what. But the hiding and lying will just make it worse.
I just wish that they (the writers and JC) would show that much talked about maturity. I can see why they need to create these stupic conflicts in every episode (allthough I don't understand it, they can't be honest for more than two episodes??), it creates drama blah blah blah, but it's starting to really feel contrived.
Again, if Sam decides to fezz up or this isn't dragged out for eppies on end, I'll be happy. I'm just not that confident...
Sorry if I bummed you out Hades.
If I read the spoilers right then Sam will try to hide it because he doesnt want to admit to Dean that he's hurting or scared and he doesnt want Dean to think he cant do the tasks. Also it will get bad enough that it will become noticable, but my guess is it only becomes noticable to Dean when Sam starts to relise how bad it is too. He starts to lose physical ability which affects his ability to hunt which is when it should be of councern to himself and Dean. My guess is it'll be revealed pretty quickly well a lot quicker than Dean's season 7 lying anyway and hopefully faster than his Benny secret.
I can totally see, why he'd do it, but it's just... the Merry-Go-Round with these guys, I wish that they'd snap out of this pattern (and how hard is that!?!) since it's not working for them.
Dean hates being lied to, and Sam knows that. So, how about Dean show some confidence that Sam can do the trials, and Sam shows some faith back in Dean, by revealing that he's suffering some effects allready and trusts that Dean will not go all big brother on him and they can together reach an understanding of "Hey, this sucks but let's try to work through this together. We can do this." But where's the fun in that? I mean conflict.
I dont like the lying because been there done that but this time I find it absolutely understandable. Sam I believe would deffinately assume Dean would decide to do the trials and end up being the one coughing up blood instead Deans grumblings earlier in the episode pretty much confirmed that he would do that and why would Sam want his brother to go through that instead of himself?
Dean will be pissed (when isnt he?) but this time I think Sam is doing the right thing.
Especially problematic to me after Sam raked Dean over the coals for lying about Benny.
And remember in Swan Song, despite Dean fearing for Sam's safety, he fully supported Sam's plan to be Lucifer's vessel even though they both knew it meant Sam wouldn't survive getting Lucifer back in his cage. That was basically a suicide mission for Sam, and Dean knew it.
So now that Dean told Sam that he does trust him, Sam needs to not lie to Dean and be honest about how he's doing. If he doesn't even give Dean a chance to stick to their agreement, then Sam doesn't deserve the trust Dean has placed in him. IMO.
Dean hiding Benny from Sam is more like Sam hiding Ruby from Dean. Sam not telling Dean about the side effects of the trial is like Dean not telling Sam that he was cutting out and reliving his time in Purgatory or initially not telling Sam about the deal that brought Sam back to life. No one blamed Dean for that, so why does Sam have to spill everything, especially when nothing can be done about it.
Both of those were things Dean said while under possession. I know I've agreed to disagree about this before, but since I don't believe in holding characters responsible for what they say under possession, I don't find either of those examples as true to how Dean actually feels.
Even with Ruby, Sam wanted Dean with him to kill Lilith, that's true. Was part of that because he desperately wanted to prove to Dean that his choices with drinking demon blood were really good? I think so, but that's only my personal headcanon. Still, I think Sam had some complex motivations at the time, because Sam is a complex person. But no, Dean agreeing to go with Sam, just without Ruby, is not Dean telling Sam that he is unimportant to him. He set a condition, just as Sam did when he refused to go without her.
As for Amy, clearly Sam wasn't quite as over that as we might believe, considering that he pulled that card out of his pocket immediately after learning about Benny. He's fairly quick to pull the "You don't trust me/treat me as an equal" card. So as with Dean, sometimes water under the bridge isn't as under the bridge as Sam thinks it is.
As for blaming Dean when he was possessed it was for the benefit (at least from me) of the fans who burned down Sam at the stake for what he did to Dean when possessed.
Personally I think the expiry date for Samholdingon is less than the expiry date for Dean holding on.
I see no point in blaming a character for something that fans do. Therefore, holding Dean accountable for possessed actions because some other person held Sam accountable just seems petty, no offense intended Anyway, I can't answer for other Dean fans, any more than I expect you to answer for other Sam fans. All I can do is state my perspective, which is that neither Sam nor Dean should be held responsible for things that occur under possession.
Expiration dates, to me, have little to do with the fact that Sam and Dean both hold onto resentments past the point where they thought they were resolved.
As for Dean not forgiving past slights, he only voiced resentment over the past resentments during possession. His current resentments were present right from the beginning, and he didn’t pretend not to hold that hurt or hide it. So that’s not really the same thing to me. Sam brought up his past resentment about Amy of his own free will, even after claiming that Dean was right and all was forgiven. I think it was an understandable impulse, but it is still exactly what Dean has done--bringing up a past issue thought to be resolved in a moment of pique, and therefore the exact thing you say you don't like Dean doing. Neither is a freedom fighter or a serial killer. They’re both brothers reacting to hurt in a very similar way.
If you’re good with being petty, I’ll leave you to it with no further comment.
Again, Dean showed no resentment for the events in S4 in S6 or S7—except under the influence of a supernatural force. I will agree that Dean holds onto resentments. No argument. My point is that Sam also holds onto resentments subconsciously and pulls them out when he’s hurt and lashing out (see Sam pulling out the trust card in the last episode, when Dean made it perfectly clear that for him it was about protecting Sam, not trusting him. That’s a very old issue for Sam to be rearing its head again). I agree that forgiveness helps the person giving it as much as the person receiving it, but Winchesters don’t let things go easily, as show has proven many times before. Both Sam and Dean are built that way.
But, of course, mileage varies.
If Sam really thought Dean was ‘moving on’ with Benny, I’m not sure what to say. Dean was fighting for his life and fighting to get back to Sam and found an ally while doing so. That’s not moving on from Sam. Still, that fits, because in the first half of the season Sam seemed to have no idea why Dean was hurt or how purgatory had affected him.
As for Sam giving Benny a chance, I’m not sure when we saw that. Because he didn’t kill Benny immediately upon shaking his hand? Despite trusting supernatural creatures like Lenore and Jack from 4.4 with little to no factual proof of their goodness, Sam was prophesizing his killing Benny from 8.6. He didn’t give Benny a chance to prove himself to him—he immediately decided he was untrustworthy and would more than likely need to be killed. Contrasting that with Amy, whom he literally caught with blood on her hands, it doesn’t follow.
I’m afraid miles vary again, because I didn’t see Dean not trusting Sam. I saw Dean worried about Sam’s condition and worrying that the toll of closing the gates would be too much for him. He didn’t imply that Sam was going to screw the trials up on purpose or somehow was unreliable. Sam did the same thing in the last episode, when he implied that Dean wasn’t in the right frame of mind to take on the trials. I didn’t see that as a trust issue, either. So, no, I don’t know how Sam saw this as a trust issue, except that he was pulling out his little brother baggage. I disagree that Amy is the only thing he has ever called Dean out on (2.4, 3.7, 5.5, 8.6 being only a few examples). That’s within his rights as a brother to do so, but Sam does call his brother to task just as Dean does to him. That’s what partners and brothers do.
2.4,3.7-Sam's worry about Dean was not some lingering issue or resurfacing of forgiven issues it was Sam worrying about Dean reacting to the misfortunes that Dean had in the immediate past.5.5 and 8.6 were long overdue (as for 8.6 Dean had prodded Sam enough) and he has not taken up those issues again from 5.5,2.4 and 3.7 as the situations are over.He did not bring those up again.So I disagree.Quote:Yes.Quote:He did not trust Lenore immediately .Logic dictated that Lenore was telling the truth and Jack was not yet a monster when they met him.Quote:which was conditional.Quote:No ,after Martin's fact finding not immediately.
Sam not killing a monster immediately upon shaking its hand is standard Sam behavior. The fact that he didn’t listen to anything Dean said afterwards and refused to give a monster the benefit of the doubt was not, and that’s why it seems logical to think there was more going on than met the eye. Sam had no reason to believe Lenore when she said they weren’t killing—she had no proof that they hadn’t killed. For all he knew, she could have spared his life to manipulate him into giving the nest enough time to escape. It was good that Sam was open minded and wanted Dean to see the situation clearly before acting, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t the possibility that Sam was being shined on. As for Jack, according to the lore Sam had, Jack was going to turn and become a killer, no question. But Sam (projecting his own monster issues onto Jack) wanted to allow Jack time to fight against his ‘destiny.’ Again, I thought that was a fair frame of mind.
Both Lenore and Jack were strangers, and Benny had someone vouching for him. Sam did not treat them the same way. So for all the talk about trust, Sam did not trust Dean’s assessment. We can speculate that it had to do with his past burn of trusting Ruby or whatnot, but in the end all we saw was Sam insisting that Dean’s words wasn’t good enough and Benny couldn’t be trusted. He didn’t talk to Lenore or Jack about how their existence was conditional on their behavior—he supported their right to live and insisted that they would able to handle themselves. He did not do the same for Benny—we don’t know the time frame of episodes, so we don’t know how long it was before Sam called in Martin. But Martin arrived and then the killings began, not the other way around, according to the episode, if memory serves. So Sam’s suspicion was not borne of actual deaths but Sam’s hate for the creature who helped his brother out of purgatory. This is something I wished show had explored more, frankly, because it would have been interesting to see Sam tackle what his true motivations were there.
Jack was doomed, poor man, because once he ate a human he had no choice. I agree with that. It was clear that the urges had begun, and it’s impossible to know how long he could have resisted the call without Travis’s interference. But it is reasonable to believe that Jack would have had a very hard time keeping his word, if not impossible. We’ll never know for sure, though. The point is that Jack was suffering from hunger, same as Benny, and Sam wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt without extending the same to Benny.
I don’t see why Dean’s instincts and judgment is not a compelling reason for Sam to at least open his mind to the possibility that his brother is right. In Bloodlust, Sam wanted Dean to trust Sam’s vouching for Lenore, and Dean was open enough to go with him to find out. Now, I’ll agree with you that hiding Benny from Sam was not a good move on Dean’s part. But given Sam’s reaction, I wouldn’t have brought Benny around him after he did find out, because it was clear from “He helped you out. Why is he still breathing?†that Benny would be in danger from Sam, and vice versa. But even with a bad introduction, Sam could have tried to understand why Benny was important to Dean and made an effort of his own. Dean is responsible for his part in the conflict, but Sam is responsible for his. I agree that Dean didn’t trust Sam with Benny, but Dean’s uneasieness about trusting Sam with Benny was pretty much proven correct, wasn’t it?
The pertinent dialog starts like this.
Quote:They then have the fight where Dean punches Sam for saying that Dean substituting Gordon for John. Dean advocates killing the nest until he SEES Lenore refuse to drink from Sam. He doesn't take Sam's word. He doesn't trust that Sam can make that call. At the time it wasn't as if Sam had just gotten back into the game. Sam and Dean had been hunting together for over a year, and at this point Sam had done NOTHING to make Dean distrust his abilities, his judgement, or his intelligence. All of Sam's big failures were still in the future, so you can't say that Dean had no reason to rely on Sam's judgment. If anything the incident with Lenore should have reinforced the idea that Sam would need to SEE that Benny was safe, not hide Benny like a dirty secret.
So fair enough—Dean didn’t trust Sam’s word in 3.3 and Sam didn’t trust Dean’s word in S8. I don’t see that the message of Bloodlust was monsters are guilty until proven innocent. If anything, I would think the argument in S3 was more that monsters should be seen individually and that Dean should trust Sam’s hunting instincts more, since his Stanford rustiness was now gone and he was fully immersed. So to me, this is still Sam not practicing what he preaches. He didn’t trust Dean anymore than Dean trusted him, and that apparently as of the last episode was very important to Sam. Dean had just spent a year immersed in monsterdom and is, according to Sam, the best hunter in the world. So why would Sam doubt Dean’s judgment? I could assume it’s because he thought Dean’s judgment was skewed by his experience, just as Dean thought Sam’s was in 3.3. Or am I to believe that in S8 Sam doubted Dean’s abilities, judgment, and intelligence when he refused to trust him about Benny based on nothing but his word?
As to Kate she had NEVER killed anyone. Benny had. He says he is on the wagon, but previously, he killed lots and lots of people, so he isn't an innocent like Kate.
As for Benny’s kills, Sam was immediately forgiving of Amy’s kills, and he was immediately forgiving of Castiel for his sins and the wall-breaking. The latter he knew for years, but the former he spent an afternoon with 15+ years ago. So he was willing to forgive a virtual stranger for murders that occurred right in front of him, but he was holding Benny’s kills from years before against him? I wouldn’t think so. Sam has, since S4, been a big believer in redemption and second chances. So why wouldn’t he be willing to extend that same second chance to Benny? If Dean is a hypocrite for believing in Benny, his friend, but killing Amy, Sam’s murderer within the last five days killer friend, then Sam is just as big of one for giving Amy a pass but not giving Benny, Dean’s hadn’t-murder ed-anyone-in-fi fty-years friend, a second chance. I tend to think both Sam and Dean are hypocrites, so that doesn’t surprise me.
castiel and Amy were Sam's friends .He knew them.Benny he does not.He has treated situations individually.Th ere are differences.
Castiel was Sam’s friend, and Sam did know him. Sam knew Amy extremely briefly 15+ years ago, so I find the idea that he knew her less credible. His childhood acquaintance Amy was actively murdering people in front of Sam, and he was willing to give her a pass. But Dean’s friend is immediately suspicious because of what he is and deserves to be watched and killed? Yes, there are differences between Amy and Benny, but the main one—Sam knew one was killing and did not know the same of the other—doesn†™t play in Sam’s favor, in my opinion. If Dean is applying a double standard for the people he calls friends, then surely Sam is as well. And that’s fine, because Sam and Dean are hypocrites. But yeah.
Sam may judge situations individually, but there’s an overall pattern to his behavior that makes his behavior concerning Benny stand out to me as a marked divergence from his usual pattern of thought. To me, there’s a lot more to it than, “Well, Sam doesn’t know Bennyâ€, because he’s given other monsters a lot more slack for a lot less reason. Your mileage, obviously, may vary.
Quote:No but he deserves to watched because he was Dean's friend and was immediately not killed because he was Dean's friend.Quote:But Sam's double standards do not get you outright Killed.Quote:Don't agree with this.
Again, why does the fact that Dean is Benny’s friend mean that he deserves to be watched, when the other monsters/witche s that have survived their encounters with the Winchesters do not?
Sam’s double standards set the ball rolling that led to Martin’s death, so I’d say that’s not quite accurate.
We can agree to disagree, of course.
In the extended version of the episode Sam says that there have been no unexplained disappearances and in fact the rate is lower than would be expected.
Lenore pleaded their case (and Sam was more inclined to believe in the goodness of everyone way back in season 2) and she claimed the cattle deaths - she didn't know that was what they were investigating and vampires that are getting human blood wouldn't call attention to themselves by killing cattle for blood they weren't going to use just to try to use it as a possible excuse if a persuadable hunter showed up.
If they WERE killing people it would have been much more logical for Lenore to turn Sam (which is what Sam thought was going to happen) and have Sam kill Dean and Gordon if they wanted to escape the hunters.
Gordon admitted that he knew the vampires weren't killing people. He is definitely a hostile witness, it gives weight to his evidence.
And with all that if Sam (or Dean) had followed Lenore down a dark path, heard a scream and come across a dead vamped body a few moments later then nothing Lenore could have said would have saved her life.
Sam knew where Benny was for a week before he told Dean and had made no attempt to kill him (or have him killed) because Benny had done nothing wrong. This is benefit of the doubt.
At no point has Sam said that he 'hates' Benny. I don't believe he does. That is a word that has been put on his actions and anger at Dean hiding information about his friendship with a monster and refusal to explain in detail why he trusts Benny (his refusal to tell Sam about what happened in Purgatory - and thereby give Sam a chance to understand - is the most contrived storyline in the history of the show in my opinion).
Dean's question 'Does that sound like the Benny you know' indicates that he doesn't feel that Sam hates Benny.
To me, Sam sending someone to watch Benny when he did not do the same with Kate or plan to do the same with actual murderer Amy does show a double standard and lack of benefit of the doubt on his part. Yes, he didn’t send Martin to kill him automatically, because I think, like Sam said in 8.6, that he really wanted to be the one to kill Benny, or to have Dean have to do it. But he wanted it to be because he was right and Dean was wrong. The “I told you so†mentality Sam had in the car at the beginning of 8.9 was pretty clear to me.
Well, Sam pretty clearly has some strong negative feelings about Benny, because he has never reacted like this to a monster that had not done him any harm and Sam had no proof had done anyone any harm. That seems hard to deny to me. If you’re telling me that his dislike of Benny was displaced resentment of Dean for acting in a way that Sam did not approve (though Sam was always the one to advocate that Dean not see things in black and white), I could agree. As for Dean not talking to him about purgatory, other than a perfunctory “What was it like?†in 8.1, I never got any sense that Sam actually wanted to know, any more than Dean wanted to know about Sam’s normal. In 8.6, his little brother “Yeah, how did you get out?†was much more about wanting Dean to have to admit to working with a monster to Garth than actually wanting details. Now, was it a plot device to keep the contrived conflict going? Sure, I could agree to that. But we have to admit that in canon neither Sam nor Dean wanted to talk about what they’d gone through, nor did they want to know what the other had gone through.
Dean’s question was nothing more than a bad bit of writing, in my opinion. Dean knew Sam didn’t like Benny, and he knew that Sam didn’t know Benny. So why would he ask? So Sam could irritably spout out that he didn’t know Benny at all (and apparently he didn’t think Dean did, either).
Overall it is very easy to attribute malicious intent to one or the other of the brothers to argue a point but pretty much always the one who can be painted as malicious in a given situation is simply hurt and reacting badly to the other one.
Quote:Yes that does seem to be the case, but isn't it always with these guys?
Quote:I think it is actually a very interesting perspective on Dean's mindset about both Sam and Benny, but again, it is all a matter of how you chose to view these characters.
I didn’t say that Sam’s intentions were malicious when he put Dean on the spot with Garth, but I find it hard to deny that his “Yeah, tell us†wasn’t meant to put Dean on the spot. Did you see it differently? I think if Sam was genuinely seeking that information, he wouldn’t have sought it in Garth’s presence (since he would know Dean wouldn’t confide in him). So, yes, to me there had to be another reason. Sam was angry with Dean, and he was reacting to that. That’s human.
I am genuinely curious what you think that question was supposed to indicate about Dean’s mindset with Sam and Benny with that question, because for the life of me it just seemed like a clunker of a line. Would you mind elaborating?
We have to remember how Sam met Benny: Dean leaves without telling him where he's going, and then Dean calls and asks for help. The next thing we know, Sam is introduced to the vamp. I understand how Sam would be worried.
And then Dean goes on about Benny never letting him down, which adds fuel to the fire. There's definitely some jealousy and hurt on Sam's part and probably a desire to prove to Dean that Benny may not be as trustworthy as Dean thinks.
At this point, we can only guess what was going on in Sam's head because he was given so little dialogue to explain himself. There's so much unfinished business there, I hope the writers don't drop this.
And that's the bottom line. It's all about perception and POV.
Then again, we're all speculating about what fandom would have done, and there's really no way to know, is there? As you say, it's all about perception and POV, both on show and in fandom.
If Benny had been Sam's friend, the discussion would have centered on why Dean couldn't trust Sam. NOT on whether it was a good thing to have Benny tailed, if he had merited further watching. NOT on Dean's motivations to have him watched. We would all have assumed that Dean had Benny watched because he had learned from past experience that not all of Sam's friends were entirely trustworthy. The questions of resentment and jealousy would never have arisen.
They have come up, because we simply don't know Sam's mindset and have very infrequently seen his POV.
I do, for example, believe that resentment would also be a topic if Benny was Sam’s friend and Dean was suspicious, along the lines of “Dean doesn’t want anyone to replace him as the number one person in Sam’s life so he resents Sam making a friend.†I did see the resentment card played about Dean regarding Amelia, and with “You left me in purgatory for a girl†and the pointblank “Maybe I was jealousâ€, it seemed fitting. So I think Dean is not immune from charges of resentment and jealousy. Would the PTB have had Sam make the same admissions that Dean has made this season regarding his own faults in the conflict? Maybe, but we’ll never know—just as we’ll never know if Dean would have been called to the carpet on his motivations for sending someone to tail Benny if the situation had been reversed.
I don’t think that all of the questions about Sam’s motivations spring from Sam’s lack of POV and mindset. I do think it is a factor, don’t get me wrong, but I think Sam did state flat out what his perception is of his problem with Benny. But it’s not like Sam has not voiced his objections to Benny, or that we have absolutely no idea why he thinks he’s doing things. But the theme of this season is perception—De an’s perceptions of his own actions/motivat ions/memories are in question, so naturally Sam’s are as well. Plus, as fans, we’re going to pick everything apart and bring our own perceptions and points of view into things, and that means we’re going to bring things into our interpretations that aren’t on screen. There have been many indepth discussions on this site alone about what the boys are thinking/feelin g and their reasons about what they do that are based in what’s on screen but include a inferential level of thinking that reads between the lines, so to speak.. So, I have to disagree that Sam’s POV would somehow stop discussions like these fromoccurring†”POV hasn’t stopped Dean’s actions and motives from being questioned, after all.
There was no uniform response to Dean killing Amy, just as there is no uniform response to Sam employing Martin to watch Benny. Sometimes people judge Sam positively and Dean negatively, sometimes peopel judge Dean positively and Sam negatively, and sometimes people look at the situation and judge it how they see it, regardless of character involved. That's fandom.
I agree that I could understand how Sam could have been worried based off his introduction to Benny. It would be alarming to have Dean leave for his personal day, only to find out he was cleaning out a vampire nest with a vampire friend. I think it’s understandable that Sam was annoyed that Dean hadn’t come right out and told him about Benny, and it showed in their first conversation about Benny. Unfortunately, once Sam (uncharacterist ically) took the “Why isn’t he dead yet?†tack after finding out that Benny was instrumental in getting Dean out of purgatory, to me it seemed like Dean shut down in the conversation. Now, was it understandable for Sam to be freaked out by Dean’s sudden change of frame of mind, even if it’s one Sam has been advocating for years now? Sure. At the same time, Dean could have been similarly freaked out by Sam’s shift from “Give them a chance†to “Why didn’t you kill him after he helped you out of hell?†So in that argument, it was clear neither was really ready to listen to what the other had to say.
I agree that there’s some jealousy and hurt at play here with Sam, and that started before Dean ever said anything about Benny not letting him down, in my opinion. Dean dropped Sam off without a word to go help a friend Sam didn’t know. That’s not normal for Dean, who consistently puts Sam first, and so I think the jealousy began there. I agree further that Sam did hold what Dean said under the influence of the ghost/whatever against him, and instead of discussing it at the end of the episode went on a rant. Now, was it understandable that Sam was hurt and lashing out? Absolutely, but that jealousy and determination to prove to Dean that Benny wasn’t the good guy Dean had praised led him to his actions with Martin and the wheels in motion for 8.9 (not that Sam is responsible for Martin’s actions nor his death).
But yes, I agree that there was more in play in that decision than just Sam wanting to be sure Benny was trustworthy. That’s all I’m saying. I also agree that there’s unfinished business here, but it’s unclear if the writers are going to go back and address anything, considering they seem to be pretending the first 9 episodes, in terms of the brothers’ conflict, didn’t exist at this point.
But I going to have to agree with the others. Sam definitely forgives and moves past things more easily than Dean. Not that he's perfect. But he doesn't generally seem to hold on to things like Dean does. Even Amy he only mentioned again because it suddenly became pertinent to the situation.
Sam forgave his father for wanting his death (I'm not sure Dean has really moved past that) and he even forgave Cas for breaking his wall (again much earlier than Dean-Sam tried to save Cas while Dean was watching anime porn). Hell, he basically apologized to Cas for making him crazy and was seemingly much more worried about him than Dean was. And Dean was still resentful right up to the season finale.
Sam has never brought up any of the hurtful things that Dean has said to him(a lot not under a spell) or the fact that he threw away the amulet. While at the same time, Dean was still mad about stuff that Sam did when he was a teenager.
And not only was Sam not mad at Dean for taking a year off (like Dean was at Sam) he was upset because he thought Dean didn't try to have a normal life.
I do think before his dad's death, Sam was still really upset by their childhood. But he did seem to let all that go at his dad's death.
Dean holding on to resentments does not make him a bad person, but it is a flaw of his. I'll give you he's had a lot of really bad things to get over though.
I just disagree that Sam doesn’t do the same. Like Dean in S6, I think Sam genuinely believes he forgives and moves past some things, but they do come back up. No matter what the circumstances, the fact that Sam can say Dean made the right call about Amy and then display so much anger that his murderer friend was killed proves to me he was not as copasetic as he thought.
John didn’t want Sam’s death—he feared that it would become necessary if Sam went darkside. I don’t think much of John as a father, but that’s not the same thing. Yes, Sam seems to have forgiven him—Sam pretty much forgave everything of John once he was dead and in hell. It’s easy to make peace at that point. But for years before that, Sam did resent John. Dean is just now catching up, because it took him a lot longer to acknowledge his faults.
Sam’s forgiveness of Cas made little sense to me at the time, except for the fact that Sam strongly identified with his good intentions/fall from grace. Sam does seem to find it easier to forgive if he can identify with the object of forgivness (Amy was a fellow freak, John is a big picture, ends justify the means guy, just like Sam, etc).
There was no reason for Sam to be mad at Dean for ‘taking a year off.’ 1) It’s exactly what Sam forced Dean to promise that he’d do as his dying request, 2) Dean didn’t stop looking for a way to get him out of hell, and 3) Dean saved Sam’s soul from eternal torture in hell. Sam, by his own words, tried nothing and was all out of ideas. Dean’s resentment is not that he found a girlfriend—it ’s that he left Dean to rot. Dean proved that Sam could have had normal while still trying to help his brother. Sam didn’t. So to me, those are not equivalent.
But Sam does hold onto his little brother resentments, as this last episode proved. Dean made it clear that he was worried over Sam’s health/safety, and that was the reason he wanted to do the trials in the first place. Instead of acknowledging that, Sam pulled out the “You don’t trust me!†card (despite the fact that he’d done nothing to earn Dean’s trust back from their problems at the beginning of the season). He also was resentful of having to leave his normal at the beginning of the season, and he has been resentful of the hunting life/destiny/et c in the past as well.
I’m not trying to pile on Sam—I think his resentments about Dean and Amy and fate itself are perfectly understandable. I can agree that he does seem to let some things go more easily than Dean. I just think there have been examples of times when Sam thought he’d resolved his issues only to have them pop back up again, and times where he does pull out the old resentment cards. That’s all.
"You want me here, I'm here." "Free will's just for you, huh, Dean" That seems pretty resentful of Dean to me. Which is human--Sam was resentful of returning to hunting, and since the only reason Sam was returning to hunting was because of Dean, naturally that resentment transferred to Dean. But yeah, that's still resentment that was aimed at his brother.
I see percysowner and you are both citing Sam thinking about Kevin when he complained about free will, but was he? At that point, Kevin had been researching on his own and was very enthusiasticall y advocating closing the gates of hell. That is his free will. Now, later Kevin expressed sadness about what had happened to his life, but he chose to pursue the tablets and a hell solution instead of creating an identity and throwing the tablet into the sea. Dean didn’t force Kevin to do anything—Kevi n brought the idea to them. So Sam denying that Kevin was acting of his own free will was incorrect perception and, to me, a projection of his own resentment of Dean and his sense of obligation to him and the hunt onto Kevin.
This is why, to me, Sam is projecting his perception of his lost free will (though he did choose to return to the hunt) and his resentment of that onto Kevin, and in turn onto Dean. "Everyone but you" isn't just about Kevin, so who else could Sam be referring to but himself?
Quote:To me, in this context, the "you want me on board, I'm on board" remark isn't resentful it is addressing Dean's questioning of Sam actually researching the case on hand. It is Sam basically saying, if I'm doing this, I'm going to do it right, while Dean was expecting Sam to simply pout and not do it. Like I said, MY interpretation, but I think it fits the context.
The "So free will, it's only for you is totally only about Kevin. Again from the transcript
Quote:Sam's remark about free will being only for Dean is explicitly about the fact that Dean is insisting that Kevin jump back into the fight, translate the tablets and do what Dean thinks needs to be done. I'm not saying closing the Gates of Hell isn't a good idea. I'm just saying that Sam sees that Kevin can bow out, stay hidden and not engage in the struggle while Dean is insisting that Kevin doesn't get to make that choice because the stakes are too high. It is NOT about Sam in this instance.
I’ve seen that interpretation of Sam thinking about Kevin when he complained about free will, but was he? Dean wasn’t insisting or forcing Kevin to translate the tablets or take part in closing the gates of hell. Kevin was doing both of those things before the Winchesters arrived on the scene. He was excited when he brought the idea to Sam and Dean, proud of his work and ready to take on Crowley, who had destroyed his life. Sam may see that Kevin could bow out, hide away, and try to go back to normal (though it is possible that Crowley’s legions would find him eventually), but Kevin had already decided not to do that. Therefore, to me, Sam was definitely projecting his own chafing at feeling obligated to going back to the hunt onto Kevin and voicing his resentment at Dean there. Kevin wasn’t feeling denied of free will to Sam’s knowledge at the time of Sam and Dean’s conversation (Kevin and Sam’s conversation took place later in the episode), so that was all Sam to me.
Again, resentment is very human, and in this case is understandable. But it is resentment, nonetheless.
None of this, however, addresses why Sam said that only Dean had free will , thereby implying that Dean was somehow denying Kevin (and Sam) the same.
That IS interesting, I was wrong. I've never heard of them before so I was kinda intrigued at first but then just lost my interest
Well, if indeed familiar are animal mostly (or first), then it does rise the "ick" factor for me re: their intimate relations. But since SPN is known to reshape the lore to fit it in their stories, it's possible that they (shows versions) are humans who can turn like shifters but they are bound to one person and have that psychic bond...
Thanks for the info, PW! Glad to find something interesting surface from last nights snoozefest...
I do think they put their own twist on the lore for this episode. Wouldn't be the first time!
If I am feeling generous: it is a pretty much THE universally-acc epted visual, artistic shorthand to indicate to an audience (in case they are in any doubt) that a character is seriously ill or dying.
Whether this state of ill-health is a result of injury or illness, no matter which bodily system (respiratory, cardiovascular, gastrointestina l, blood, bone etc.) has been affected. Apparently they all manifest with coughed up blood when The End Is Nigh....
If I am not feeling generous: this is poor background research on the part of the writers coupled with a lack of respect for their audience's IQ and a lazy shortcut in storytelling.
I know that our show is all about the unreal, the unbelievable and the un-ordinary, but I think the judicious use of fact-based dialogue and action in the non-fantasy parts of a story, anchors that story's more fantastical parts, throws them into sharper relief and makes for a better show all round.
Anyway, just out of curiosity, I Googled 'coughing up blood' and this is the first thing that came up for me (being in England, it was the NHS site):
"In young people who are generally healthy, coughing up blood is rarely a sign of serious illness. But in older people, especially smokers, it is cause for concern.
Bringing up small amounts of blood in your sputum (phlegm and saliva) can sometimes be caused by prolonged coughing.
However, if you have other symptoms too, such as a fever, you may have a chest infection or more serious medical condition that needs investigating and treating. The medical term for coughing up blood is haemoptysis.
You should see your GP immediately if there is blood in your sputum and:
• you cough up more than a few teaspoons of blood
• there is also blood in your urine or blood in your stools
• you also have chest pain, dizziness, fever, light-headednes s or severe shortness of breath
Where is the blood coming from?
A severe nosebleed or bleeding from the mouth or throat can cause blood to come out in your saliva when you cough. This is different from coughing up blood from deep within your chest. Blood from your chest is often mixed with mucus (there may just be streaks of blood in the mucus or the mucus may be frothy or bloodstained).
Also, be clear that you are coughing up blood (from the airways or lungs), rather than vomiting blood from the stomach, which may indicate a different problem, such as a peptic ulcer.
Common causes of blood in sputum
The most common reasons for coughing up blood are:
• prolonged, severe coughing
• a chest infection such as bronchitis – this is most likely if your sputum is coloured or contains pus, you have a fever or you have a tight feeling in your chest
• bronchiecta sis – this is a long-term lung condition causing excess mucus in the airways
Less common causes of blood in sputum
Less commonly, coughing up blood may be the result of:
• pulmonary embolism (a blood clot in the lungs) – this usually causes sudden shortness of breath and chest pain
• pulmonary oedema (a build-up of fluid around the lungs) – your sputum will be pink and frothy
• lung cancer – however, this is rarely the cause in people aged under 40 and in non-smokers
• tuberculosi s (TB) – a severe lung infection that is becoming more common in the UK
• cancer of the throat or windpipe
Sometimes, no cause can be found and the episode never happens again. This is known as unexplained haemoptysis.
Rare causes
Rarely, coughing up blood may be the result of:
• a heart valve problem called mitral stenosis
• a serious blood vessel disease called polyarteritis nodosa "
I guess the unexplained haemoptysis idea is running rampant in the writers' rooms of Hollywood, but I do wish our Show would take 'the road less travelled'. Sigh ;)
They have already said what the symptoms are supposed to resemble in a spoiler so I guess it isn't too random. But I know what you mean!
However it seems to me that if a person repeatedly gets thrown against walls (and over laundry baskets) that eventually they might show symptoms from that too
This was really informative, yet hilarious report of the famouser than famous "coughing of the blood" -scene
I usually have no probs with scenes like this, if there has been some build up (unless it's something like Zachariah giving Dean stage 3 stomach cancer on the spot) and it's not very very conveniently placed after some cliche dialogue, like "I'm fine." *coughs blood*
Had Sam maybe had a couple of bad fits (or christ, just one!) of cough before, like when the dog was about to arrive, it would've been less eye rolls inducing later
But I agree, they could do something else, if they just put some thought into it. Maybe after so many years, they're just not that excited anymore hence no passion for writing? I don't know. It must be very stressfull work, writing on such a tight schedule. I feel for them, but when you have so many spectacular seasons before, you can't help but compare. Or just right away notice, when they go where the fence is lowest. It is dissapointing, but I agree with someone else who commented than even the worst of SPN is better than 90% other TV shows out there, for me atleast :)
Thinking about this a little further, I think they've done all possible "DANGER!!DANGER !!" symptoms on this show, throughout the years.
For example, there's been headaches/migra ines, hallucinations, shaky vision, nosebleeds, stomach cramps, and the coughing of the blood or down right puking
I'm sure there are plenty more too.
I'm kinda amazed that they haven't yet done the Sam/ Dean loses sight/hearing/s peak temporarily yet. Or maybe they do, and I've just forgotten (shame on me!).
I read a great fic by kroki_refur which handled this beautifully.
Okay, random, I'll stop now.
Thanks magichappening!
Television writing dont you just love it
THIS! Couldn't agree more. Sometimes I get concerned with that. It must be a difficult job for the writers because I feel that, if they loose touch with some base 'reality', I wouldn't be able to relate so much, since I'm not that much of a fan of fantasy gender. It happened to me with Fringe, although I still loved the characters (not as much as S&D, I must add).
That's why I didn't like the witch club, or the astral projection part, and specially the fight beetween the witches using rays coming out of their hands. It was too much! An "oh, please!" was coming out of my mouth every now and then. But that's is just me.
Thank you about the coughing blood explanation. Well observed - so true!
X
I didn't find one positive moment in it not even the brother exchange at the end as it's just a foreshadowing of more contrived brother tension; and I love the sweet brother moments more than anything!
X
All round bad acting, bad dialogue, predictable story-line, jokes that might have been reputed funny in the writers' room but resulted pathetic on-screen, brothers being wallpaper again in their own show, etc, etc, etc.
X
I am so annoyed at the showrunners taking this wonderful show down to such low levels when it is the third watched show on the network and deserves better than this.
X
Where is Mr Carver? Is it not usual for the showrunner to write an episode now and then or at least to oversee the smooth pacing of the entire season?
X
It appears to me that individual writers are turning out episodes without any true co-ordination between them, ignoring continuity even from episode to episode.
I looked up the writers after the interesting discussion above in the comments. Eugenie Ross-Leming and Brad Buckner have written 7 Supernatural episodes of which 3 are the following:
1. Route 666 (Season 1, Episode 13) – Racist truck. Nuff said.
2. Shut Up Dr Phil (Season 7, Episode 5) – Random witches. Not Good.
3. Man’s Best Friend with Benefits (Season 8, Episode 15) – Random witches (Now with Added Bestiality Jokes). Very Not Good.
But they also wrote these 3:
4. The Slice Girls (Season 7, Episode 13) – Random Winchester progeny.
5. Of Grave Importance (Season 7, Episode 19) – Random Ellen-alike.
6. A Little Slice of Kevin (Season 8, Episode 7)
And, while none of these three are in my top ten Supernatural episodes ever, if my memory serves me they are reasonably solid efforts (for me, anyway).
And then the 7th one is Heartache (Season 8, Episode 3) from this season, which I had to go and look up again as I had NO memory of it. Realise now that it was the one Jensen directed this year. From what I can remember it was very average.
Also if my research is correct (!):
• Quite Interesting point #1: 2 of these 7 episodes feature Dean sex scenes. Hmm.
• QI point #2: They didn’t write any episodes after Route 666 in Season 1, until Weekend at Bobby’s in Season 7. But have written 6 episodes in the last 2 years.
Which brings me to another point! Because of timing issues, Jensen ends up directing the 3rd or 4th episode each year:
• Season 6, Episode 4 ‘Weekend at Bobby's’ (Writers: Andrew Dabb and Daniel Loflin)
• Season 7, Episode 3: ‘The Girl Next Door’ (Writers: Andrew Dabb and Daniel Loflin)
• Season 8, Episode 3: ‘Heartache’ (Writers: Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming)
Dabb and Loflin have written 17 episodes from Season 4 onwards http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Andrew_Dabb and while some of theirs are good (Frontierland, Dark Side of the Moon, There Will be Blood), they are not always by any means (Hammer of the Gods, I Believe the Children are our Future, After School Special) NB. They have written 4 episodes in each of the last three seasons, so we can probably expect 2 more from them this season.
But, Episode 3 (or 4) comes just after the season opener and its follow up, which are usually intense and heavy on mythology...so the Episode 3 or 4 slots seem to be ‘taking a breather’ or ‘filler’ ones.
I understand the timing issues regarding prep (Jensen needs to direct one of the early episodes as he cannot prep unless it is before the season starts) and writing (the writers would probably only have the first few episodes ready before the season starts) and experience (he is a new director, so having ‘lighter’ episodes is a chance to find his feet)...But it would be nice to see Jensen be given a go at a meatier episode, written by someone with a better batting average... Someone like Jeremy Carver, Robbie Thompson or Ben Edlund? :)
Everything seemed off, even the brother's dialogues.
Still, even 40 minutes of mediocre SPN is better than some tv shows out there, I think!
A lot of issues in this episode have already been mentioned -- the stilted dialogue, the poor pacing, etc. All in all I thout this was an unmemorable outing, a procedural with a mystery that had the potential of being more compelling but failed to live up to that. I did, however, like the actors who played James and Portia. And on a related note, I'm a guy, so I didn't find Dean's amusement and fascination with the James/Portia relationship quite that off-putting (if anything, it struck me as a normal red-blooded-str aight-male reaction, and I'm surprised he didn't react more, to be honest -- Sam had it right with the 'beastiality' remark)... and when James was being shackled to the bed, my first all-male thought was, "Oh, they're so going to get it on!" Sorry.
On a different note, I would like to give my two cents on the comments above with regards to Alice's opinions on the show, and I largely agree with kfarrell. By being the owner / administrator of this website as well as a credible reviewer, Alice and the other "showrunners" of this site have taken on a role where others look to their input and insights as a gauge of how SPN is doing. From there, discussions -- in support of or otherwise -- can be generated. But when comments are delivered in a way that's unnecessarily harsh and negative, it creates the IMPRESSION that there's no room for discussion, and could therefore leave a sour taste in the mouth of those who visit this site. Alice herself said she lost Twitter followers, oy.
This isn't to say that people aren't allowed to be critical and bring up opposing views, or that the good folks who run this site should ONLY have good things to say about SPN. But I think it's all about the tone, which affects the environment in which these comments are being made, and unfortunately sours it for those who liked the episode, or even those who, like me, thought it was "mm okay whatever, didn't love it, didn't hate it".
I think AOL/Huff Post's Maureen Ryan towards the end of her SPN reviewing days faced this problem too, when her criticism began to take on a tone that poisoned the rest of the discussion that took place. One thing I absolutely love about WFB is the amount of effort being put in by the administrators to keep things civil, constructive, welcoming and friendly. Wasn't there a recent campaign to reduce negativity on the site, saying it's not WHAT one expresses that needs to be tempered, but HOW those opinions are expressed? There were even warnings to commenters about being aware of one's tone. That should apply, too, in my opinion, to the administrators of this site.
I say this all with no disrespect -- if anything, it's out of loyalty and affection for WFB because I enjoy coming here to read all sorts of viewpoints. And of course, I understand that Alice, being a diehard SPN fan, was merely venting her frustration at the episode. But I hope there won't be double standards being practised about the way opposing opinions are expressed in these forums.
Okay, getting off my soapbox now, absolutely no ill-will intended.
In all threads all opinions are welcome, good or bad. We don't mind fuming angry ones any less than glowing ones. In "Let's Speculate" articles, people are allowed to express their opinions more deeply and frequently, and discussions are allowed to go off tangent. We try to keep the commenting more streamlined in the review threads. We would prefer people make their opinion known about an episode or review there, and then take further discussions about season plots and characters to "Let's Discuss" and "Let's Speculate" threads.
You must not know my history! I've been very honest about episodes ever since I started reviewing back in season three. This is nothing new for me. There have been very few episodes where I've been that overly harsh. When an episode gets a reaction like that from me, it did something very wrong. That does send a big message, and not a bad one. It's an honest one. It doesn't mean I hate the show. It means I hated the episode. A lot. I also feel more comfortable using that tone in a "Let's Speculate" thread.
I may be an administrator, but I'm a fan too. There are three admins, and lots of reviewers on this site, and we all have differing opinions. That's the beauty of this site. You get views all across the board. It's what makes us unique.
I've only been following WBF for about six months (and it's my favortie SPN site by far), so you're right, I don't actually know that much about your history!
Always interesting to hear a guy's perspective. I hadn't considered it, but I work with mostly guys (20s-30s) and the humor in this episode was on par with what I've come to expect and, let's be honest, participate in. So maybe I have a desensitization to inappropriate jokes that let's me sit back and chuckle without "paws".
Regarding Alice, if she loves an episode she shares and when she is hugely disappointed she lets us know in no uncertain terms. No punches pulled. This time I agree, sometimes I don't. I personally like a passionate opinion. We are allowed to be frustrated and unhappy with the show sometimes, yes? She has been clear about that.
That being said, I too thought some of the dialogue was ridiculous. We know Dean hates witches, yes we heard you the first time we didn’t need to hear it over and over. Yes we know Dean doesn’t like cats and dogs, we got hit over the head again with that one as well. Sam stop lying to your brother…. again.
It seemed really convenient to me that someone that they used to know suddenly is a witch now…. I mean really? With a familiar and everything? And no problem with the actress that played Portia but I wish they had left the familiar a dog. I think it would have cooler and funnier if dog could have communicated with it's master using human speech as well and one of the boys over heard it talking…just saying. But then who would tell the story….
As for the love scene, the only love scene I want to see has to involve one of the boys…but you can keep the cuffs…â€coug hs†I'm cool with that. “coughs†I laughed at the inappropriatene ss of it and not cuz it was a love scene but because it was so bad.
I pegged the bad guy the first time he came on the screen. No surprise there.
Oh well. Onwards and upwards.
Pity, I could have been so much better, it had potencial, as usual J2 gave their best, the supporting cast was - I don't know if I like them - and the only part I really laugh was when Dean was sneezzing - I didn't know he was alergic to cats .... that's that...
I'm waiting for next weeks episode... gosh, the last time I said that was during seasons 6 and 7... when I waited anxiously for the next episode to give me more than the last one..... don't miss this feeling...
Take care everybody, have a nice Thrusday and wonderful weekend.
Cla;}
I didn't hate the episode. It gave me a few chuckles. Yes, it was poorly written, the dialogue sucked, and the entire story was lame. But that seems to happen midseason with at least one episode each year. I can live with it. I can even find moments to enjoy.
If there had been any more of the weird brother-bickeri ng that we've had this season, I would have chucked my remote at the set.
What bothers me most of all about this episode (and most likely the next one, if the preview is any indication) is that they are not dealing with all the various plots they've got going, and with 8 episodes left, some of them are going to have to have the miracle quick fix that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
1) First (and foremost in my mind), they haven't dealt with the whole "Sam went for a girl and a dog rather than look for Dean" scenario, which I'm sorry for the repeat, just doesn't work without them selling it better.
2), Cas.... they have to figure out what's wrong and save him.
3) Naomi.... they've either got to deal with her, or build her up as next seasons "big bad".
4) Crowley... he still has the other half of that tablet, and Kevin's going to need it.
5) Kevin's got two more trials to decipher... so after taking 15 episodes to get one, he's going to read the other two with enough time for the guys to do them in the last 8 episodes? .... and he's got to do it without having another stroke.
6) They've either got to do the trials and shut off hell, or figure out how to get Sam out of this "contract with God" that he made by doing the first trial (I think K. Parks mentioned this was how he interpreted the light in Sam's arm)... before he dies of consumption or whatever.
Speaking of which.... Jared obviously was suffering from a cold in this episode, could he not have snuck in one little cough somewhere, so the big bloody cough wouldn't have felt like it came out of nowhere, right on cue with the big conversation in the impala? Geesh.
Ok.. I can think of more issues to be dealt with (Benny), but my point, I guess, is that I don't feel like they have time to throw in useless one-off episodes, given how slowly they're dealing with the main issues.
On to next week... and another MotW.
The cough on cue. Really bad.
I hope they don't drag this all to a cliffhanger and not explain or resolve anything. That would really bother me. Not to mention the rehashing of the lying and keeping secrets. I hope this doesn't escalate into a big deal AGAIN.
For me, it was still an enjoyable 40 minutes. Hell, anytime Sam and Dean are on screen I'm fairly happy! But I'm also intrigued by the network of contacts they seem to be building. Two weeks ago it was Aaron and his Golem. Now they have a witch in their corner. Could one or more of these new contacts be the key to solving the tasks they face? Maybe they'll need other Supernatural creatures in their corner when it comes to the final task to close the gates of hell. I really like that the boys are developing this circle of contacts, which is a total contrast to season 7 when everything was stripped away.
On a final note, I watched this episode with a friend and she actually preferred this week's installment over last week's episode... and this is a friend that is usually super-critical of bad writing. My point being, it's all subjective. What one person hates another one loves... and I think that happens a lot with Supernatural
Portia and james ok weird but hey what can I say and I know there are scenes will watch from this eps like the beginning with Dean and still wanting to do trials. Dean being wiccen from Detroit. There are a few could watch. But how big rift we going to get if Sam doesn't tell Dean the truth????
Looks like next week is another filler, I am still waiting to see what the deal is with Noami and Cas and if we will get the end of the demon tablet this year...
I hated the underground witches club. The chess pieces move by themselves? Why go there? Is this Harry Potter now? It was totally unnecessary and actually cheapened the realism factor that SPN has always had. I felt the same about the astral projection scene. Totally a cheap move. Why not have Sam and Dean break into the room in question and look at the actual file? Way more tension could be created around that scenario then what we actually got. It sort of felt like an episode of Charmed with its cheesy special effects and dialogue that explains everything instead of showing us.
The story itself was soooo predictable. Spencer wants to sleep with Portia himself? I knew he was the one from his very first appearance on screen, but not why; just blech. And Sam and Dean were basically useless in this ep. Why did Portia even call them in anyway? What did they do? How did they help? She was handling things just fine on her own, had all the necessary information, and ended up saving the day, so Sam and Dean didn't even need to be there. All they did was get thrown into walls and make bad jokes. I felt like Jensen in particular, was trying so hard to do SOMETHING with his awful material, but even his brilliant acting couldn't save Dean from looking like a moron in this episode. Jared/Sam fared a little better with his dialog and actions, but I see we are back to "I'm not lying, I just didn't tell you," status. Hmmmmmph. Everything just felt flat.
I did like the brother talks scattered throughout the episode even if they just rehashed old issues. I want them talking, even if they aren't being very productive. Old habits are hard to break but if they continue to talk, hopefully something meaningful will get said soon. So for those scenes and the one when Sam first meets the dog, I find that this episode wasn't a TOTAL loss, but it comes pretty close.
And James' abilities weren't really set up that well in the episode; I mean astral projection seems like a pretty complex thing to do and taking someone else along? Very sophisticated. Have we seen ANY witch astral project on this show before? Is this a common trait/talent among witches? Not to my knowledge, although I am no expert on witches. And if James could astral project like that, and find out what was going on in the police station, then why didn't he do the same with the witches at the club and his friends? He could have figured out what was going on before four people were killed and dealt with it. It just seemed like an easy (and cheap) quick fix to the boy's information problems, and it killed the dramatic tension and rendered the brothers useless in their own show. It was like a revisit to season 7 all over again.
Quote: I used to watch that show!
Charmed was so bad it was good sometimes. They always got new powers that fit with a popular movie. The worst one was when Phoebe got her power that enable her to make Matrix kicks. It was so funny.
Hated, hated that witches club. So, suddenly there's a nice, hipster club for witches to congregate and no hunter knows anything about it? And yet Dean can just waltz right in? And guess what?! All the answers to your investigation are there as well... just awful, awful writing. It's almost as though they took all the aspects that Kripke despised about the roadhouse, and retreaded them here, and, surprise, it still doesn't work. Kripke burned that place down for a reason.
Thanks again, E! You summarized perfectly what I was thinking.
I found the two trust conversations between Dean and Sam out of out of step with the last couple of episodes. And Dean telling Sam he trusts him at the end seemed like a bit of a left handed compliment, trusting Sam because he doesn't have a choice? Overall the writing/cadence of this episode was lacking (but at least the familiar was pretty hot).
Interesting theory on Crowley; not sure I agree but Aredospina always comes up with clever ideas that give me food for thought.
Regarding Sam hiding the affects of the trials, I think everyone saw that coming. He'll continue to hide them until they become too apparent, or endanger himself or Dean during a hunt. That being said, Dean would do the same thing in his shoes.
Might get in a little trouble with the fandom for this but, here goes. I think Sam and Dean were reckless in their approach to closing the Gates of Hell. They only know 1 of the 3 trials and don't know whether Kevin will be able to figure out the other 2 trials from their half of the tablet. IMO they're going to need the other half of the tablet that Crowley has to finish the trials. And this doesn't even get in to the philosophical question of whether they should be trying to close the Gates of Hell for good. There is a heaven and a hell for a reason, a natural order to things in the Supernatural universe. If hell is closed, where do the souls that are destined for hell go? Regarding heaven, we have seen that angels aren't all hugs and puppies. Angels, after all, are soldiers and it looks like Naomi seems to be pretty far up on the command chain. Just saying I see a LOT of unintended consequences down the road.
On a complete 180 degree tangent... speaking of hugs and puppies, I miss Meg - think we're going to see her this season?
Quote:'Nother good point!
Quote:Good point #3 :) I have not been following all the comments and speculation too closely over the past season as I am increasingly (INCONVENIENTLY !) spoilerphobic, but I think Tim the Enchanter made a similar point recently - tho if I remember correctly she had wondered if it was a entrepreneurial , demand creation choice on the part of the Winchesters!
It was meh with a side of meh for me. After last week's talk between the brothers this week's talk made no sense to me. It felt contrived and left me scratching my head. What was the point? Maybe it's just me but I didn't get it.
Next week doesn't look very interesting to me either.
Portia calls James ‘Master’ and likes to wear a collar but apart from being a crime against fashion, that ain’t a crime; horses for courses and all that. We also saw the other guy (Philippe?) with his Master so I don't think it was mean to be a dominant/submis sive thing. James spent most of the episode manacled to the bed ffs, so Portia was far from the poor, helpless woman. She chose James; she’s loyal to him and James to her. Portia actually seemed to be the one more in control in the relationship. She took charge, took action.
The sex scene? Okay they’re always better with Sam or Dean in them (though I did like Portia’s shorts) but it was kinda necessary for Portia to get into his head. Portia can turn into a dog when she wants. Why is that a bestiality thing? Professor McGonagall can turn into a cat when she wants. Should all animagi (is that the plural of animagus??) remain celibate for the rest of their lives for fear someone will start shouting ‘bestiality†™? In dog state or not, she's still got a functioning, human mind.
I liked that I knew it was Spencer that was the baddie as soon as I saw him. (Never trust a guy with no top lip....) It’s nice to get one right (especially seeing as I was the only person on earth who didn’t guess Ellie as soon as I saw her last week).
The witch bomb was cool, though frightfully convenient, as was the witch club. (Does this mean that that Don and Maggie (Spike and Cordelia) both have familiars? I wonder how Maggie would react to that, given that she nailgunned the guy who inadvertently introduced her husband to his lover??)
‘Two seconds ago she was a dog’. That along with ‘Ow, my spleen’ in 8.13 just give me the giggles every time I hear them.
I like Portia. She has spirit, and she always had that air of aloofness around the boys that I liked. She is who she is, and what she is, and if others have issues with that then feck ‘em! James came across as a bit of a limp rag though.
Does every small town in America have a shop where they sell strange, supernatural ingredients? Man, I need to go to the big city to get freaking halloumi.
Not quite sure what the point of emphasising the killing of the blind guy was. Was it to make the crime look more heinous or something?
What’s so difficult about them breaking into a locked room full of cops? Isn’t that kind of what they do (again and again)?
That bring said, there was a fair bit of dodgy about the episode as well. The reason behind Spencer doing the bad didn’t work for me. I mean, if your familiar is like a connection of souls (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) then surely Spencer wouldn’t want Portia, he’d be satisfied with Philippe as his familiar. I know there was the sexual aspect to it but Spencer wanted Portia as his familiar before she got involved with James.
It bugs me that these last few episodes Dean has been put into situations where he seems awkward when faced with sex, or even the idea of sex. They just seem to be emphasising it more and more lately, for whatever reason. In this episode he just harped on and on about it and it came to a stage where I was like ‘Enough already!’ I mean, Dean is older than I am but he’s been coming across as a teenager in his attitude to certain things these last few episodes. All fecking talk but when it’s in his face, he’s struck dumb. Compare that to the Dean of The Slice Girls who was comfortable, mature and competent when flirted with.
What purpose did the flashback scene serve for Sam and Dean? (And when did Dean see his mother burning on the ceiling? I thought John handed him Sam outside the door.) I mean, it just came out of nowhere. Was it there to remind us, maybe? I don’t know, it seemed to come out of nowhere; put in for the sake of putting it in. The same applies to Dean’s about-face at the end. I’m having difficulty associating what Dean saw with his change in attitude. Was it seeing his mother? Dude, you were looking at a picture of her last week too. What happened to make him suddenly trust Sam (I don’t mean trust him in terms of telling him if he’s hurt etc, cos I understand why both Sam and Dean don’t do that, but in terms of trusting in his ability etc). This felt a little ‘one step forwards, two steps back’.
The same applies to the ‘I trust you because it’s too important not to’. I mean, was that a compliment or was it an ‘I trust you cos I’ve no choice'? Does this mean that if it wasn't as important then Dean wouldn't trust him? Does Dean actually trust him or not, and in what context? (This, of course, raises issues as to whether Dean has ever trusted Sam. Damnit)
Crap, maybe I don’t like this episode after all......
In relation to Crowley being an angel (either a spy or a turned spy), I kinda hope he’s not. The fact that he changed the way of torturing (from knives and red hot pokers to waiting in line), suggests maybe he might be (imagine if Crowley was in charge when Dean was in hell! Dean would have spent ten years cutting in line or with really bad BO instead of slicing and dicing the people he was trying to break!) I think I just prefer the simplicity (!) of him being a demon with smarts. I’d find that to be much scarier and menacing. (Gotta push the smarts!)
Thanks for this Ardeospina.
"I mean, hell, if you're grown-up enough to find faith in me…the least I can do is return the favor."
Um....what? Does that mean I guess I'll have faith in you now because you almost died and all? Gee thanks.
I agree with you, btw. They can be really wishy washy about Dean's feelings from one minute to the next.
He has to trust Sam now b/c Sam did the first trial. This goal of closing the Gates is very important, so Dean has to trust (and hope) that Sam can do them.
In PONR, Dean just decided to trust Sam b/c trusted him. I don't think Dean actually trusts Sam though.
Sam tends to forgive and move on, especially the ones closest to him (Dean, Cas). This is probably because he's done a lot of crap that he has needed to be forgiven for. That being said, Sam does tend to bury a lot more stuff now, especially after returning from hell and getting his soul back. Granted, sometimes he has to, such as when he was hallucinating, but his tendency now is to avoid the chick flick moments.
Dean tends to hang on to, and take very personally, past digressions/per ceived betrayals by those closest to him i.e. Sam and Cas. He had a tough time getting past what Cas did in S6 and I'm not sure he's ever going to get completely past Sam picking some demon chick over him and Sam not looking for him after S7 (even though that's what they promised each other they'd do
Quote:Ha! Plus agree about the anviliciousness of the villain. Might as well have gone the whole hog and had Darth Vader music whenever he was on screen ;)
Quote:Seconded!
Quote:Agreed. She was good, but the actor who played James appeared to be taking himself wayyyyy too seriously.
Quote:Ahahahaha!
Quote:Interesting point. It does frustrate me when they dumb Dean (and Sam) down or give them a tween sense of humour. That said, the one joke in this episode that worked for me was the one where Dean was like 'That was incredibly hot' and Sam nods agreeing, ' It was pretty hot' :) Plus, I take nickmaniac's point above, that it could just be a male vs. female humour thing...
Quote:Good point, well made.
This is why I love Supernatural - even a very average episode has so much to debate. Thanks Ardeospina for the space to wax lyrical! And thanks Enchanting Tim. I am always interested in your POV :)
Now, onto your theory about Crowley. I also don't believe he is just a crossroads demon. I'm beginning to think he might be a fallen angel, somewhat like Lucifer, but unlike Lucifer he got cast out of Heaven not because he loved God over humanity, but because he loved himself over God and wanted to take over management.
Your review, and lots of other commenters, have listed the reasons why this episode was sub par so I've nothing much to add. I just felt this episode was written by people who don't know the characters of Sam and Dean but had read about them on Wikipedia before sitting down to write the script. Even the brother-bonding moments felt forced and repetitive (given that they were basically rehashes of old, arguments from previous seasons).
To me, the vibe of the entire episode was SPN does a parody of the bdsm community via the stand-in of the witchcraft community. This was not an interesting idea to me. Plus, I agree with percysowner that male witch characters get much better treatment in SPN than female witches and that doesn't sit well with me.
So, now we have Sam and Dean re-set back to contrived-reaso ns-for-discord- settings again just immediately after the writers spent time getting the brothers to be mates again after the long time Sam and Dean spent being angry with each other????
*flings hands up in the air in exasperation*
Surely the writers can find some new plots for the Winchesters other than Sam is hiding something from Dean and Dean doesn't seem to feel that he can trust Sam?!?!
Has it been a really long time since Dean has called Sam by the pet name "Sammy"? I'm hoping someone here knows the answer because I fail at remembering SPN facts in great detail
The reason I ask is because I have been thinking for a long time that Dean doesn't use the pet name much any more (I really missed its use in SPN and it has felt, to me, that the pet name doesn't get much use in recent seasons) and I was hoping that his use of "Sammy" in this episode was a way of the writers signalling a positive change in Dean's attitude to Sam and the brothers' relationship generally. Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue?
Dean using "Sammy" last week, in that situation and after their rapprochement, would fit in with my current theory that it's a way of signalling a positive change in their relationship this season.
Do you know if Dean's been using "Sammy" much since S4/S5?
8.01 2 times
8.02 1 time
8.03 1 time
8.04 none
8.05 none
8.06 3 times
8.07 1 time
8.08 none
I've been re-watching S1 over the last few months and it occurred to me that Dean used "Sammy" to refer to Sam a hell of a lot more in the early seasons of SPN. Then it also occurred to me that I don't remember Dean using the pet name as much since S4. I got wondering if this was a deliberate signal from the writers that Dean and Sam were not okay with each other during S4-7 and that "Sammy" reappearing more often in S8 was a signal that Dean and Sam are heading towards okay with each other again.
TBH, I'm probably giving too much significance to something that's probably not occurred to the SPN writers
I found their interactions highly believable and genuine. Their argument or disagreement felt real to me. It felt like an argument they would have in the earlier seasons. I didn't have a problem with the writing for Sam or Dean.
Yes, Dean did give Sam the paper at the end as he was inspired by Sam's words. Right after, Sam practically collapses to the ground and some weird light shoots up his arm. Dean immediately asks Sam if he's okay. Sam says yes but Dean doesn't really believe him. Heck, Sam is also unsure but determined to follow through with the trials. That's what I got from last week's ending scene so I wasn't surprised by Dean's concerns this week. Plus, Dean, like Sam, knows what the trials are supposed to do to the person doing them. He knows Sam's going to have issues. Sam wants Dean to trust that he can do the trials sonhe's also frustrated. Their fight was fine to me. I'd rather see this type of fighting than what we've gotten at various times since S4.
I also find it very believable that Sam would keep his problems to himself. First, Dean is beginning to trust that Sam can complete the tasks, why would Sam then tell Dean something that would destroy that trust? Sam was aware of all the risks of completing the trials. I'm not sure why he would now complain about them. Second, Sam has gone on and on about being okay and capable of handling the trials. I'm sure he won't want to complain at the first sign of a problem. Plus, there's really nothing Dean can do except worry about him. Sam doesn't want that. Dean does enough of that. I think Sam will endure as long as he can. The effects of these trials will be brutal. Sam knows this. There's no need to worry Dean at this point. I think this is very in character for Sam, and I don't have a problem with it.
I thought James and Portia were portrayed by good actors. I didn't need the sex scene or even the whole reference to bestiality. The episode would have had the same impact without the sex/romance angle. I guess it was included to push the envelope. I also had no problem with Dean questions to her as I was also interested in the answers. Is she a dog or a human or both? The idea is really skeevy and gross. Dean's questions/inter est didn't seem all that OTT or crazy to me.
On a scale of 1-10, I would give it a 7 or 8. It wasn't awful to me but then I had no problem with Route 666 or M3: TR.
i mean the whole witch/familiar thing....i know that we don't have to worry about seeing amelia anymore, but i wonder if she actually wasn't what we thought she was. i'm not saying she was a witch...but what if she was one of crowley's or one of naomi's. what if riot wasn't just a regular dog? what if riot was a familiar or something else? maybe he was don's? i'm just not convinced that there was no point to this eppy. i think it's possible for it to tie in some way with sam and his unaccounted for time before hitting the dog.
i just think that the very point that sam was a dog person and dean obviously wasn't was important.
i get that dean's not a dog person, he was killed by a hellhound after all...not sure if he disliked dogs prior to s3 though. i just find it interesting that it was a dog in the first place that led sam to amelia, who kept him running from his life and his loss.
it was don that specifically got sam to remove himself from the picture, which he would've done anyway in my opinion. sam never loved amelia. he went with her because he needed focus on someone. she was messed up. he was drawn to her. he could help her in a way he couldn't help dean. for sam, amelia was a chance to save someone. but i never trusted the relationship he had with her. i'm of the belief that sam did try to look for dean but had no resources, no backup, no clue where to begin, and thus ended up convincing himself that dean was dead. it's really an obvious defense mechanism...bet ter for sam to believe dean dead than him being out there somewhere and he can't save him.
i digressed. what i'm getting at is that maybe this eppy isn't as filler as we think. maybe it will be important down the road a bit. i agree that there are many plates spinning right now, but i think the platter is what happened to sam that night dean disappeared. it's too big to question to leave unanswered imo and it really needs to be dealt with.
as for sam hiding his symptoms, i understand and don't really blame him. the whole reason sam wants to do the trials in the first place is because he didn't like where dean's head was at, his fatalistic view where he ends up dead. so sam would rather take on the trials incapacitated then have dean do them...it's really not hard to understand, dean wants sam to live, but sam wants dean to live. if dean had a more positive pov than i'm sure sam would have no problem with dean taking on the trials. sam needs for the moment for dean to have faith that he can do them, so he'll try to keep his pain a secret, but we know dean will find out and he'll get upset, but he'll get over it and i have no doubt sam will explain himself. i'm not really worried...broth erly love arguments are ok with me.
i'd like to think this eppy wasn't just a filler but that it actually had purpose. fingers crossed on that .
Totally adore your line "dean wants sam to live, but sam wants dean to live. if dean had a more positive pov than i'm sure sam would have no problem with dean taking on the trials. " Because Sam was fine with Dean doing the trials until he heard Dean's attitude towards them and then he decided to do them, because wants them both to have a chance at living.
Sam hiding symptoms isn't really a problem for me either. Dean was already doubting him, so hiding his symptoms isn't really a stretch for me.
Also, I think Dean does trust Sam- as far as having his back, etc, but wants to do the trials to protect him and he doesn't trust ANYONE to protect SAM but him. Not surprised by Sam keeping his symptoms to himself, but a little disappointed. He is worried Dean will overreact and try to stop him and that's a valid fear.
Quote: I agree with you on this one, I don't really have a problem with Sam hiding his symptoms from Dean. I think he's choosing not to share because he knows that then Dean would insist on finishing the trials himself. As Fanotheboyz pointed out, Dean sees himself as Sam's protector and the only one who can do it adequately.
As for your views on Amelia, Don & Riot, it's a very interesting take on the whole thing. I hope we do find out who that was lurking outside the door when Sam left. TPTB made it so obvious, it better turn out to be something.
I was (and still am) angry about this episode because it felt like the writers were purposefully trying to offend the audience. When the familiar yells at Dean about his attitude toward the situation between her and the master, it was as if she was yelling at the majority of people in the audience because most people find the relationship disturbing and we have a right to.
I can handle a poor episode once in a while but what I have a problem with are writers who go out of their way to offend, insult and disrespect the audience. I don't care if one of the writers is married to an executive producer, Carver needs to step up and take control of his show.
I also find it very believable that Sam would keep his problems to himself. First, Dean is beginning to trust that Sam can complete the tasks, why would Sam then tell Dean something that would destroy that trust? Sam was aware of all the risks of completing the trials. I'm not sure why he would now complain about them. Second, Sam has gone on and on about being okay and capable of handling the trials. I'm sure he won't want to complain at the first sign of a problem. Plus, there's really nothing Dean can do except worry about him. Sam doesn't want that. Dean does enough of that. I think Sam will endure as long as he can. The effects of these trials will be brutal. Sam knows this. There's no need to worry Dean at this point. I think this is very in character for Sam, and I don't have a problem with it. " YES THIS!!!!
There has been significant continuity in character for both Sam and Dean since the first episode....Sinc e Sam apparently did not look for Dean, while he was in purgatory Dean has had serious trust issues with Sam that will not go away anytime soon...Sam feels like he is the victim of Dean's mistrust and is trying to prove that he can be trusted and relied on (esp since Dean seems to feel greater loyalty from Benny-- "Benny has never betrayed me")...
They agreed to set aside their issues for the sake of the task at hand--shutting the gates of hell...Sam gave up Amelia after realizing that a normal life was an illusion and that even without the supernatural, normal life is just as difficult...... .Dean gave up Benny to make peace with Sam and also to free himself of distraction in their mission. They both made compromises for the sake of their job, it does not mean that they don't have issues with each other and they are trying to salvage what they can of their relationship
I found it interesting that Dean brought back Benny when he said that he and Kate did not have a choice (he said something similar about Sam's poor choices when he was possessed in the 2nd or 3rd episode)...
The problem that both brother's have is their unwillingness to be vulnerable to each other. They seem to think that they have to be strong at all times even when they are not. The day they trust each other enough to be vulnerable and to need each other at those times willingly and NOT AT THE LAST MOMENT and that they don't constantly have to PROVE to each other their worth will be the day they are brothers again until then they are just hunting partners nothing more....
What it was, IMO, was an hour of "Mind Candy."
I enjoyed this episode even tho it was slow and the guest story was useless (Like Repo Man fro Sn7). All the comments before have stated some of the issues so I will say what I really really enjoyed was very simple. Sam finally said the words "Why doesn't he trust me?". I've been waiting for that for ever.
Now I know, there have been other times where it was implied that Dean didn't have any trust but Sam has never really asked that question out loud to Dean. True, it was glossed over and life went on but it just made me happy.
I think one of the reasons many of us are fans is that the story of Sam & Dean, regardless of the Supernatural, is very human and I at least, find many things that I relate to in my own youth.
Sam has faith in his brother, has put him on a white horse. Believes in him. But that doesn't mean he has always chosen to trust him. The faith is automatic, the trust is a choice. To relate: I had faith like that in someone- automatic. The words "You are a monster, a freak" coming from someone you trust...well, I believed but I didn't agree. I wanted to prove her wrong and I made decisions and kept secrets that were...well, not what I should have done. Only when I had my epiphany that she was not God, but just a human was I able to come to terms with that.
By the same token, as parents (Or older siblings) we raise our children trying to teach them right from wrong, telling them what to do. At a certain point we have to let go and trust that we have done the best we could. Dean is still stuck in the "I need to protect and save him" "he's my Job" "I must tell him what to do" mode. He has no true faith but he can choose to trust.
I am hoping that the other half of the tablet will reveal greater tests, perhaps the strength of character tests Sam is facing will require a strength of faith test. Who knows. I've speculated many times and have never been right. So I just try to enjoy the little things.
Wow, I said too much and I should edit, but I'll just let you skip it if you want. Now I've got to watch it again just for eye-candy purposes (smile).
This is what I wanted him to say in Southern Comfort, instead of that weak "You had Benny". Sam has more than paid the price for his past transgressions and shouldn't be blamed for things he can't control. And I'm sure the rational part of Dean knows this, but he's human and there is a part of him that hasn't really trusted Sam or anyone for a long time.
And as much I hate the idea that Sam has to prove himself after everything he has done. If the trials are a way that helps Dean (and Sam) get past well the past, I'm all for it.
I also had some issues with it as a WoC, but those weren't my main problems with it. It had other, bigger problems than that.
This episode could have gone any number of ways that would have made it more interesting, but the dialogue was not even capable of being saved and the fake drama between Dean and Portia in the Witch Bar was just awful.
There were a number of convos that just didn't feel right, including Spencer's monologuing. Where did that motivation come from. It would have been more believable to me if he just wanted James to stop being a cop or heck just wanted James.
I also found it upsetting to see a witch kill their own familiar. I don't know why it bothered me but it did.
As for the "Crowley is an Angel theory". it's interesting but I just can't buy it. On the other hand if it turns out to be the case that Crowley is far more than he seems, then thanx for the heads-up.
As much as Dean sees his life goal is to protect Sam - Sam sees his life goal to be less of a burden to Dean. He is and has always been very aware about the emotions around him and probably picked up at a very young age that Dean cared for him out of duty and if given a choice would have preferred to do "normal" kid stuff or go hunt with Dad. People always talk about Dean's abandonment issues but Sam has them too. His mom "abandoned" him by getting killed. His dad "abandoned" him with Dean to go hunting, so there was a part of him that was afraid that if he was too much of a burden to Dean that Dean would leave him behind too. When this mindset is set at a very young age, it is awfully hard to reprogram it when you become a thinking rational adult.
And that aspect was NEVER really address. His dad not saying good-bye or that Sam knew that his dad thought he might need killing. I think Kripke even expressed regret about the latter one.
And I think this really ramped up the feeling of being a burden for Sam. Now Dean not only keep him from being killed but always watch for signs he needed to die.
The thing about this issue is that in many ways Sam has been a burden to Dean throughout the years. Now I think it pretty much balances out with everything he has done for Dean as well, but you could see where he could develop a complex.
Sam's not telling Dean about his symptoms is true to his nature. Just like in Meet the new boss, Sam seemed ready to tell Dean what was going on with his hellavision, but overhead Dean's speech about not looking a gift horse in the mouth about Sam seeming to be allright.
Here Dean trys one more time to have Sam give up the trials and to have them search out another Hell hound so he can be the one to do the trials. I think Sam was afraid for Dean and what he would do if Sam lets him know what is really going on. I think this will be very interesting as a story. Just some random thoughts.
Now I doubt that the trials can be transferred over to Dean or anyone as long as Sam is alive. He started them and I don't think there can be a do over. It would also be a huge slap at Sam if Dean tried to take them over, telling Sam that, once again, Sam is not good enough to do anything right or good. It would undermine Sam's confidence and might well put him at more risk rather than sparing him.
First, to suggest that this statement coupled with Dean's determination to do the trials alone was evidence of lack of support is, IMO, missing the point. It wasn't Dean thinking Sam was too weak. It was Dean being big brother. Only one person could do the trials, putting their life at risk, and he was quite simply determined for it not to be Sam. I do however, think it is entirely possible that Sam, being the little brother, views it as Dean thinking he's weak, that he can't handle it. It is the ages-old difference of perspectives between older and younger siblings. On the other hand, to suggest that Dean wasn't serious in his threat to shoot Sam in the leg is also, IMO, to lessen the lengths to which Dean will go to keep Sam safe. Dean will not lose his brother again. I don't think there is any 'maybe' about it - if Dean thought it would save Sam's life, I 100% believe he'd shoot his brother in the leg. It is absolutely a control issue. Dean can't support Sam in this because doing so is admitting what he perceives as a personal failure - Sam putting himself at risk because Dean couldn't complete the trial himself. And Sam is put in a catch-22 - Dean doesn't want Sam to lie to him about his health, but Sam knows telling Dean would only result in his brother beating himself up over it, and probably demanding he stop. Each is trying to protect the other. Neither wants to lose the other. It's the crux of their relationship, the source of all love and tension. And I don't think they'll ever get past this issue because it is so fundamental to who they are.
Personally I totally agree about the sex scene. WAY TO MUCH, THANK YOU. We rarely get any action with Sam and Dean. Don't want, or need to see it with random guy.Or so much off it. That scene should have been at least shorter.
Also, I know they were trying to make a point with the dog collar;but--NO.
The rest was alright. Just not great.But it did have some good parts. I liked Dean's jokes. I know Sam keeping secrets is old news; but I get it. Dean has finally said if Sam is ok, then he is going to be supportive. The last thing Sam wants to do is tell Dean, "Oh, by the way. I'm not ok. I'm coughing up blood."
we don't know the actual facts, but based on what we do know, sam's escape from reality officially starts when he hits the dog.
sam is guilted into taking care of the dog...really, who guilts a stranger into taking care of a dog?
familiar=dog (last nite's eppy)
return of hellhounds
mind manipulation=naomi
mind manipulation=witches
dogs and mind manipulation... am i reaching or does anyone else notice a recurring theme here?
also since we know there is no statute of limitation on murder...didn't it seem odd that sam and dean would go back to st.louis?
I like nappi815's train of thought, though. Especially about a vet entrusting a dog to a stranger. That would never happen!
While I was reading all of these comments, I was thinking. People talk about Sam not looking for Dean. I also want to know why. That is the biggest issue I have from the first half of the season. But I also want to know is how did Sam know it was Dean in the cabin? Instead of wanting to do the tests? Have I just missed the answer to this? If so, would someone be kind enough to fill me in? Thanks, everybody!
i'm not against drama and misunderstandin g bet. sam and dean...but what carver did crosses the line.
he created a situation that is strictly seen only from one character's pov, in this case dean. dean gets pissed, the entire dean fandom gets pissed right along with him, no matter if dean is wrong or not. tptb know this. so to create a story in which sam does something, which i personally think is totally understandable, many don't understand. if someone doesn't like sam, if they are not told flat out what the deal is, they're not going to go out of the way to see things how he sees them. so sam gets the short end of the stick for 10 eps because carver creates a situation in which sam's pov isnt explained.
it's obvious, i ran and my life imploded and the whole debacle with amelia isn't enough for the average non sam fan to see that dean's death destroyed him.....with sam, like with dean, it's necessary at times to just flat out tell the fans what the hell is going on with sam....
for the most part i get sam but it would be nice for me and i'm sure most of the rest of us to not have to guess when it comes to sam.
until jc gives us sam's pov, he's a total flop of a showrunner in my opinion. that's just how i feel. no offense to those who sing his praises.
he resolves the sam issue, i'll be glad to join in the choir.
Quote:Quote:
Quote:I am with you here all the way. Its like he shaked a dice cup and the important Sam parts fell out and he didn't put it back into the game. He totally failed to show Sam's side and I mean Sam's mindset, inner, how he was right after the lab imploding. It is what makes this season as a whole for me not worth as a part of the Winchester Saga. I feel that way although I liked the last 4 episodes really, I also have issues about how the Benny part was handled.
I don't think we will revisit the part after Dick Roman was killed by Dean, I mean Sam's reaction and all. It is sad that someone who seemed to be such a brother strong writer failed as a showrunner regarding one brother, not the other!
Quote:Yes, misunderstanding, holding back, worry, not showing the other suffering, wanting to take over the trials and so on....is okay for me too
Quote:I ran, my life imploded, I lost my brother, that was ALL we got, if not for the haunted and sad/lost looks of Jared in those episodes which chased me down to the core, we would have been totally lost regarding Sam, not to mention the reactions of Dean fans who doesn't want to or simply doesn't understand Sam!
Also, not throw us some words, show us Sam and his POV, his time right after 7.23!
Quote:Jeremy Carver should know by now what makes this show tick beyond their original end of S5. PCA show it also, and the ratings since the last couple of episodes increased, its the focus on both brothers and their relationship, which wasn't shown in the first 10 episodes! We could have made it without Sam those first 10 episodes, but then Dean wouldn't have had a reason to feel so abandoned by Sam, and we wouldn't have had a better brother Benny.
And we can tinker/puzzle Sam's reactions and character together, and about the time when Sam was alone, there is almost nothing we have on our hands.
I don't see Dean as suicidal at all. Not in the least. He hasn't taken undue risks on any other hunt this season. And he's actually "nesting" in their new MoL home, decorating his room, etc. That's not something a guy who's suicidal does. No way.
But do I think Dean is a realist when it comes to the Winchester brothers being tested? Yep. Because he's been through it and he knows what the usual outcome is. And since Sam was the one who made the choice last time to "die" (in Swan Song), and because Sam was successful in his normal life (relative to Dean anyway), Dean was willing to make the sacrifice this time so that Sam could have his normal life.
I understand that Sam doesn't want to worry Dean with his symptoms, but if he expects Dean to trust him completely, then he needs to reciprocate and trust Dean as well. Dean trusted Sam to complete the task in Swan Song, and if the writers decide to maintain consistent characterizatio n with him now (hello writers!), then Dean will trust Sam to complete the trials. IMO.
sam, on the other hand did not have happy moments in his fbs with amelia. all his fbs were told from her pov and he just sat with a sad face and listened to how awful it was for her. his sole purpose of being with her was to help him focus on someone else rather than his own pain and loss. it was a misery loves company relationship. one birthday cake doesn't make for a successful normal relationship. he wasn't happy. he was simply going through the motions of a fantasy life so he can run away from his own. it obviously was a failure as sam left her even before he knew dean was alive. he indicated as much in hunteri heroici where he realized that one couldn't run from reality.
so i disagree with your statement that sam had more of a success at normal. imo, dean was the more successful. sam's never had fulfillment or joy. dean at least was part of a family, he did feel joy. we did see him happy...and that's more than he's ever had as a kid, and that in itself makes it a success.
but to be fair, dean hasn't opened up to sam either. how do you think it makes sam feel that dean keeps him in the dark about purgatory? after everything sam has been through...he wouldn't understand purgatory...are you kidding? sam is the only one on this earth who could understand...an d dean is lying and keeping secrets about benny. don't you think it hurts sam? you think he's just ok with dean's lying to him?
opening up is a two way street. both boys need to come clean with ea. other and talk. it's the only way they're ever really going to solve, well not solve, but at least come to terms with these issues. just saying.
I get the gist of this episode. The Showrunner wanted an episode that follows last episode after Sam killed the Hellhound. Dean obviously has a problem with that. Not because he doesn't trust Sam but because he is worried that Sam will die, or dying, or ill, or going dark or anything else that Dean usually worries about his little brother.
There are lots of miss in this episode. The message is not delivered smoothly and the dialogue in delivering that message is chopped and stunted. It didn't flow well.
Trial and Error speaks clearly about why Dean wanted to do the task because he thought it will turn bad and if it turns bad then, true to Dean's character, he will not let his little brother try it because it means Sam will die/hurt/ill. If it turns bad then it's better if it is Dean who die/hurts/ill. Last episode SAM UNDERSTANDS THAT.
Sam: This is suicide mission for you. But I want us to live. I want us to survive this together (Probably not the exact dialogue but it's the gist of it)
Now, why in this episode Sam returns to a bitchy girl by saying..
Sam: I keep asking myself why didn't he trust me. Then I realize that it's not that you didn't trust me but you can only trust yourself!
Wrong!!!!
For that exact second thought that Sam was going to say... "It's not that you didn't trust me but you're too worried about me. I'm not weak, Dean. I've been through the same shitty things just like what you've been through. Please stop worrying. Do you realize that I'll do even better if you stop worrying and supporting me?"
That'll make more sense, IMHO.
Bad writing... Miss opportunity...
Um...excuse me? Sam's the one who jumped in the pit! If anyone can pull this off, it's him. That's a total non-issue. Sam has absolutely nothing to prove.
There are 2 ways to do the quote thing. First copy what you want to quote CTRL C. Then you can click the icon that looks like a quotation mark (next to the eye). A box will pop up asking you to paste the text you want to quote CTRL V. Then hit save. Or you can type quote in brackets [] copy what you want to quote and then type /quote again in brackets. It will look like this (quote)text you want (/quote) but with Brackets instead of parentheses.
Why are there so many varied reasons for Sam's instant dislike of Benny? Because Sam had no clear POV in the story. Many viewers just made up reasons why Sam instantly disliked and distrusted Benny. That is a sign of bad writing, IMO. To this day, I have no clue why Sam had a problem w/Benny. Was it because Ruby played him? Maybe, but he never really came out and said that. It was hinted at w/the "we've been burned before" comment. Was it because Dean told him Benny was a better brother to Dean than Sam had ever been in Sam's entire life? Maybe . . . for me, it seemed there was some jealousy there but Sam did seem to instantly dislike Benny before Dean ever said anything about him so I don't know about that. Was it because Benny was a monster and all monsters should be killed? Maybe, but Sam has let monsters go in the past so I'm not sure.
In my opinion, Sam was written against character when it came to Benny. Sam has always been the one to extend trust or the benefit of the doubt to creatures/monst ers b/c/ he had always self-identified as a "freak." As recent as this year, he was cool w/the werewolf chick walking away. The year before that, he was fine w/Amy walking away even after she murdered several people.
This part of the story failed, IMO, because Sam wasn't given a clear POV. I know many argued w/me that Sam doesn't have to trust Benny simply because Dean does. I agree, but where's the story? Why doesn't Sam trust the Dean wouldn't willingly hang around a killer vampire? For all intents and purposes, Sam does trust Dean. He told Dean he trusted him, not Benny. Why? What had Benny done to even earn the surveillance?
Sam took an instant dislike to Benny, and it was never clear - at least to me - why. He hated Benny upon first meeting him w/no explanation. I don't know. I just wish Carver had taken the time to tell a story there. Have Sam talk about how Dean's been different since Purgatory, have Sam directly relate the situation back to Amy and bring up what Dean said to him (not just say why did Amy have to die but Benny live or whatever he said), have him directly relate it back to Lenore and how she eventually drank blood, have him directly relate it back to Ruby and how he thinks Benny will burn Dean. It was also strange that Dean was so secretive about Benny, esp. given how much more accepting Sam (usually) is of monsters/creatu res than Dean. Why would Dean think Sam would hate Benny? The whole thing was just strange and poorly written.
For me, Sam hated Benny upon sight, and I found that to be very unlike Sam Winchester. I think some more dialogue and POV would have helped whatever story Carver was trying to tell there. I submit that Sam's inexplicable (IMO) hatred of Benny had more to do w/Carver forcing conflict btw then brothers than anything else.
I'd also love to know why Dean was so secretive about Benny in the first place. He had to do what he had to do to get out. Teaming up w/a vampire isn't the worst thing the Winchesters have done!
The whole first half of the season is so spotty and inconsistent IMO. I've written off much of what happened in the first 11 episodes since it appears (so far at least) none of it meant anything.
To me, there are varied reasons for Sam’s instant dislike of Benny in fandom because there are varied perspectives viewing the situation. Some of Dean’s stories, where he does have more POV, have the same varied reactions and reasons read into them, in my opinion. I think there’s merit in a lot of your list. Sam did say, “We’ve been here beforeâ€, calling to mind the many times the supernatural have screwed over Sam and Dean (Ruby, Crowley, Castiel, etc). He also brought up Amy, which speaks to his frustration over the variation in Dean’s attitude. I think he showed jealousy with Dean running to help someone without a word to Sam, something Dean doesn’t really do. This new behavior confused Sam and left him feeling threatened, considering the shaky ground Sam and Dean were with each other at that point. That jealousy was exacerbated by Dean’s words under possession. I don’t think it was that monsters should all be killed, but as anonymousN helpfully pointed out to me, like Dean, Sam trusts his own instincts regarding the supernatural while Dean’s are suspect. He wanted to prove that he’d been right and Dean had been wrong and that Benny wasn’t trustworthy. Not because he was a monster, but because he was Benny. I don’t think you can pinpoint any of these as the one right answer, because show gave us clues that they were all part of the Sam’s thinking about Benny. Sam is a complex person, so it makes sense to me that all of these motivations worked together to compel Sam to the actions he took.
Now, I agree that Sam was acting against character regarding Benny, because that is not his typical mindset about monsters who claim they aren’t going to kill. We have to factor in the other reasons/stateme nts listed above, because they do help to explain how Sam reached the conclusions he did. Dean was also acting against character regarding Benny, because he doesn’t trust monsters normally. But he stated his reasons why he did let Benny go, so we did have reasons. I feel the same applies to Sam. I think it could have been done better, but there are reasons in play on screen as to why Sam felt the way he did.
I feel like we’ve seen Sam question Dean’s judgment before (just as we’ve seen Sam question Dean’s), so it doesn’t shock me that he doesn’t immediately trust Dean’s judgment. It’s all part of the Winchester hypocrisy—you have to believe and trust me but I get to doubt what you say because you might be too involved. Again, Sam was acting against character, but you’ve aptly listed all the reasons show gave us for that. So I do feel like Sam’s POV was there to at least some degree. Again, it could have been done better, but it is there.
I agree that Sam could have talked about how Dean was different since purgatory, but he showed no more interest in Dean’s time in purgatory than Dean did in Sam’s time in normal. I think Sam’s perspective suffered at times, but I think Dean’s did, too. This is because, to me, show was striving for conflict and drama between the boys, and worked backwards from that objective without thinking everything through as well as they might have. Still, I think that Sam’s resentment of having to return to hunting and dealing with a brother that was very different than the one he remembered colored his perception of what was happening with Benny. Strong emotion can do that, and I find that quite plausible.
Again, it’s easy (boy, is it) to pick at the writing, but at the end, these are the characters and the canon presented to us. We have to take them as they are for the sake of continuing on with the show and for discussion therein. To me, that’s what makes it interesting—t o be able to see how the same set of facts can be seen in different ways by many people. That phenomenon is not confined to Sam and his lack of POV, at least in my opinion.
Sometimes, when I'm watching a show or a movie, if someone does something very illogical or doesn't behave as they normally would w/zero explanation, I no longer see the show/movie. I just see the writing. I can't look past the crappy writing to analyze the character's actions.
So, I think I'll just bow out of this discussion. I can't discuss Sam's reactions b/c I honestly don't think there was anything real about the way Sam reacted to Benny. I just don't. It was out of the box hate for no reason. There was no clear story to go along w/his attitude. I never believed Sam would act the way he did. It didn't feel genuine.
That's why I feel the lack of a strong, clear POV hurt the story. For me, that is the primary problem w/the story If Sam would have just stated his problem w/Benny, for me, the story would have improved 100%. And I'm not talking about a vague line here or there. I'm talking about a mini-speech. LOL! Or maybe a conversation btw Sam and Dean w/Sam asking questions about why Dean trusts Benny. I just need something more.
I do understand what you mean about being pulled out of the story. That happens to everyone at some point, and there's nothing wrong with finding your line concerning what you can and can resolve to yourself. The line different for everyone, so that's fine.
Thank you for the discussion either way.
i don't think sam needs a reason other than he's a vampire. not just a vampire, but a vampire freed from purgatory...why is that so hard for people to understand why that doesn't sit well with sam?
face it, even lenore went bad. so in retrospect, sam and dean's decision to let her go ultimately got an innocent killed. lesson learned.....mon sters are what they are and they will always end up following their true nature, no matter how much they say they won't. does anyone recall dean's speech to amy at all?
dean feels obligated to benny ...that's it. that dean is blind to the fact that benny obviously used him to get out of purgatory is beyond me. dean is still igonoring the fact that benny lied to him, admitted he lies himself and never told dean who they were who told him about the window out.
it's not hard to understand why sam doesn't like or trust benny.....it's because dean lied about him. dean was never going to tell sam about benny....sam found out because dean needed sam's help and called him. if dean didnt need sam, sam still wouldn't know of benny's existence.
let's face it....if anyone knows what it means when someone keeps someone else a secret it's sam. sam didn't tell dean about ruby or what he was doing with her. cas blew the whistle on sam before sam got up the courage to tell dean. why did sam keep ruby a secret? because deep down sam knew that dean wouldn't approve. that what sam was doing was wrong.....
sam recognized the signs right away. the minute he found out what benny was.....that dean had lied to him...sam's senses started tingling. he recognized the signs and he knew something wasn't right. the fact that dean winchester is trusting a monster? what did purgatory do to his brother? this i imagine are the questions going through sam's mind. if benny is so awesome then why didn't dean just tell sam about him? what's the big deal? sam would've listened to dean. .....sam takes his cues from his brother....his brother was keeping benny a secret and sam doesn't understand why that was necessary if as dean says benny is ok....
and sam was right about benny ....he's still a killer. he killed an old friend. sam isn't about to take the word of a monster that it was self defense....and what sam is supposed to trust dean's judgment? sam is completely in the dark and the fact that dean has kept him in the dark...well why would sam not question that...
if dean had been honest from the start about benny then maybe for a few minutes sam would've trusted dean's judgment....but then again, sam would start asking all kinds of questions and the moment he found out benny hitched a ride out of dean....sam would freak out and then for sure his initial distrust of benny would be warranted.
and then dean would have to face up to the fact that benny used him for his own purpose...gaine d his trust so dean would set benny free .. dean would have to admit he was used, much like ruby used sam.....while it's ok if sam is played, that doesn't happen to dean winchester...gu ess what, i think dean has been played...and when sam finds out the truth, i think he'll believe dean was played too.
i'm sorry....i think sam is perfectly justified in his distrust and dislike of benny and i don't think his distrust is out of jealousy....i think it's due to dean's secrecy.
Lenore going bad wasn’t her fault—it was the MoA. Sam and Dean didn’t blame her and even wanted to lock her up to save her life until Cas burned her out. So, no, I’d say they didn’t learn a lesson. They also let Kate go only an episode prior to Sam meeting Benny, so I’d say that he certainly didn’t believe that monsters are what they are and that can’t be changed. That directly contradicts Dean’s speech to Amy, so they were not in that mindset.
I don’t understand why someone not telling someone something constitutes a lie. No, Benny didn’t tell Dean who the ‘they’ were, but Dean didn’t ask. He didn’t seem to care to me. I don’t think that Dean is blind to the fact that they used each other to get out of purgatory, but they clearly also had a relationship where Dean and Benny felt some comradarie towards each other. Now, could this all end badly? Naturally, but at the moment we’ve seen no proof that Benny is somehow using Dean for something nefarious at this point.
I agree that the real root of why Sam doesn’t like Benny is Dean. It’s misplaced anger, but human. Yes, Dean didn’t tell Sam about Benny, and there is some question of why. But that doesn’t somehow give Sam permission to threaten to kill someone Dean told him point blank had saved his life and was obviously important to him out of hurt or jealousy, in my opinion. Still, in 8.5, Dean almost called Sam and didn’t. Sam ended up calling him, and Dean told him where he was. Dean didn’t call Sam for help. Unimportant to the point, but I’ll through it in.
I also agree that if anyone knows about keeping a secret and having it go bad, it’s Sam. But at no time did Sam directly draw a parallel to Ruby, which is one of the misses of the storyline, in my opinion. It would have sounded much better than his “But you killed my murderous friend!†His ‘we’ve been down this road and it ends badly’ might have addressed this, but it was too vague to me.
The thing is, Dean didn’t lie to Sam. He didn’t tell Sam about Benny, but there really was no reason for him to do so. Sam wasn’t really interested in how Dean got out of purgatory—he never even asked. Now, did Dean not mention Benny because he had conflicting feelings about him? I think that’s entirely possible, and Dean might have set himself up for a self-fulfilling prophecy if he didn’t tell Sam because he thought Sam wouldn’t approve. Dean definitely played a part in the trouble here, no question. But once he found out about Benny, Sam never made an attempt to see things from Dean’s side or to try to understand why Dean cared about Benny. When the situation was reversed, Dean did eventually ask and came to briefly call a truce with Ruby in appreciation for what she’d done for him. We saw no such bending from Sam, did we?
Sam ensured that was he was right when he called in Martin, I agree. Sam is not responsible for Martin’s actions, but he did set the ball rolling. I don’t think you can remove the context from around Martin’s death (i.e., he took an innocent woman hostage, terrorized her, assaulted her, and placed her in a position where she was in mortal danger) here and get an accurate picture. Sam refuses to listen to the context, because then he might have to admit that he might possibly have been wrong. Unfortunately, show has allowed that stand to pass and I doubt they’ll ever address it again.
Maybe Dean should have told Sam about Benny immediately, even if I saw no reason for him to do so, but that doesn’t mean Sam is therefore free to view both Benny and Dean solely through the lens of his own hurt feelings and never try to be objective or understanding. Dean could tell Sam that Benny and he used each other to get out of purgatory, but I’m not sure what the point would be. And again, they used each other—Dean couldn’t get out of purgatory with him, so he used Benny just the way Benny used him. I think Dean was reluctant to admit that he’d partnered up with a monster to escape, but that doesn’t mean that he was played. Dean knew exactly what was happening. I don’t think the Ruby/Benny parallel works that neatly, I have to say.
So, I have to disagree that Sam is justified to refuse to trust and try to kill someone because his brother didn’t tell him the whole truth exactly when Sam felt he should have. If not jealousy, he was certainly, from your description, acting out of hurt feelings and projection of his own past issues with Ruby, because Dean didn’t tell him everything about Benny, it gave Sam bad memories that he never actually mentioned except in one oblique line in canon, and because Benny had confessed his life story to Dean instead of to him. None of that’s not much better. Now, all of this is very human and forgivable (provided Sam ever acknowledges his own actions and motivations), but Sam did make mistakes in how he handled this situations and he did let his perception and emotions affect him because he did not react the way he normally does.
Imagine if he had told Sam from the beginning, there likely wouldn't have been an issue. Dean deliberately separated them, which set up to be at odds with each other. We didn't have a clue whether Benny was trustworthy and Sam had less info than we did. Dean demanded Sam trust Benny but gave him no info to go on. They were both equally to blame for the situation that came about in Citizen Fang.
I'm one who agrees that I have no problem with Sam having come around to the position that monsters simply have to be killed. Every time they have tried to let one go, it has come back to bite them. Even Lenore killed. Yes, he let Kate go, but he wasn't the one to suggest they do so at the time. He went along with Dean, because he had seen her story and because she hadn't killed anyone. Last season Dean went on and on and on about how killing Amy was right because you can never trust a monster. Heck, they found out you can't necessarily trust a victim of possession because they might have actually enjoyed it. To blame Sam for finally accepting Dean's viewpoint that all monsters will eventually turn, especially because he has seen it happen time and time again makes sense to me.
I don't understand why Dean gets away with "I didn't trust that Amy wouldn't kill again, so I killed a young mother in front of her child, who I then left to starve to death" while Sam has to give an in depth explanation as to why he doesn't trust Benny. He said look at what has happened to us before, including Ruby. He said that Dean was right about Amy and is too close to judge on Benny. He didn't hunt Benny down in the dead of night and kill him and not tell Dean. He looked into if there were any vampire deaths where Benny was. There were and he took the logical steps for a hunter.
Someone I respect on livejournal, who has given me permission to quote her put it better than I could. (She doesn't want to get into big convoluted discussions, so she isn't posting here AFAIK)
Here's her take, one that I agree with.
Quote: even though as Sam points out, Sam DOESN'T know Benny.
The thing is, Sam hasn’t come around to the position that all monsters have to be killed. Once Dean voiced that maybe they could not chase after Kate, Sam jumped right in to convince him to do so. It’s not like Sam was a passive follower in that conversation. In the past episode, Sam was the one advocating for James, even though he’d just become a supernatural being and by Dean’s Amy logic, should mean he needs to be killed. So yes, if Sam had adopted Dean’s viewpoint that would be one thing. But he didn’t accept that all monsters would eventually turn, because we can find two examples this season where it’s clear that he doesn’t believe this. He just believed it of Benny, so that is reason to question his motives.
I think the reason Dean gets away with it is because he did give a reason as to why he thought a murderer needed to be stopped (though it seems like the reasoning should be self-evident). She was a killer, an unrepentant one, and she did need to be stopped. Her son wasn’t one, and he said he had people he could go to, so Dean let him go. Sam did not similarly give a reason why he felt why Benny was less trustworthy than Amy the admitted killer, and that’s why people expect an explanation. Instead, he flipped this season from saying he understood why Amy had to be killed to being righteously indignant about her death. Ruby is a great example, and if Sam had expounded upon his concern there it would have lent strength to his argument. But he didn’t. So people do question why Sam took steps with Benny that he hadn’t taken with any other supernatural creature they’d let go, including Kate. No, he didn’t sneak away to kill Benny—not until Martin had knocked him out and they’d handcuffed him anyway.
I agree Sam doesn’t know Benny, and with the somewhat bizarre “Does that sound like the Benny you know?†we can only conclude that Dean . . . forgot that Sam sent someone to stalk his friend because he trusts him so much? That was just a ridiculous line, in my opinion, because it made Dean look completely unaware of Sam’s distaste for Benny, which was pretty well on display at that point. I saw no sign that Dean was somehow of the impression that he was using mind control on Sam so that Sam could only think what he thought. I’m also pretty sure that Dean has realized that Sam doesn’t think the way he does about everything by now. So I’m afraid I have to agree to disagree with your friend and chalk that line up to bad writing, only there so Sam could tell Dean that he didn’t know Benny and didn’t trust his beliefs about him.
I agree that Dean does have good instincts, and that Benny had built up a lot of credit with Dean. But as you pointed out, he did go there with an open mind and machete to do what needed to be done. Dean was convinced by his instincts and his friend. Sam wasn’t convinced by Dean’s instincts or vouching for his friend. That’s pretty much all I took from that scene. Mileage, of course, varies.
Dean should have been open and straightforward about Benny from the get go. I blame the writing. Everyone has been talking about OOC Sam, but having Dean be secretive about Benny just to create tension was OCC for Dean in my opinion. Sam was right to be suspicious but he did seem a little more gung ho about tracking Benny than I feel Sam would have been if Dean had just introduced him as his trusted friend. But then we wouldn't have had all that brother angst would we.
Quote:Why didn't Sam need proof of who Dean was? He was missing for a year, jumps out from behind a door and Sam doesn't need proof of identity. I am honestly baffled. percysowner told me that it had not been explained at all. I assumed by show. Has it been debated here and I missed the debate? If it is just too small a point, then I will let it go.