Warning!!!  If you haven't seen "Everybody Hates Hitler," read no further!  If you do, I will be forced to learn Hebrew and summon a golem and have it shut down your computer so you won't spoil yourself!

Well, I have to say, I am a much happier camper tonight than I was last Wednesday night.  This was a very enjoyable episode for the most part, though there was one thing that just makes me go all keyboard smash, but we'll get to that, and it's pretty minor and a personal pet peeve.  But first, a theory!

Theory of the Week:
Sam really found his place with the Batcave, didn't he?  It's perfect for him...or can be with a little updating, like some high-speed internet, some phones, some cushy chairs where he won't have to lean over and hurt his back, probably some longer beds because '50s twin beds, man, not good.  Anyway, when the show inevitably ends, can't you see him there passing along information to hunters?  He can be another Bobby or Garth now, I guess, or a Man of Letters, whatever he wants.  He can contribute to the fight but not be on the front lines.  Because I don't think he's just going to stop doing SOMETHING regarding hunting, even if he says he wants out.  He just didn't know there was this option before.  So Sam will continue with this, and Dean is gonna keep hunting, but I think Cass will hunt with him.  Dean really doesn't enjoy being alone, and Cass did say he wanted to become a hunter and all that, so why not?  The Batcave can be their new home base since Bobby's house is gone, and Rufus' cabin can be their vacation house, and they can maybe just breathe for a while sometimes.  Nice.  Very nice.  Which is why it won't happen, right?  Too clean.

EDIT: Struck a bit of a nerve with some of you with this theory.  But what I didn't make clear enough, perhaps, is that I don't see this happening while the show is airing, but afterwards, like the long-run plan.

Since this episode was kind of mytharc light, and because I need to get to bed at a decent hour to care for my sick toddler tomorrow, I am gonna bullet point the rest of this again.  Bullet points for the win!  I'm guessing we'll have much more to speculate about next week, though, when we get some meaty "closing Hell's gates" issues to discuss.  But first, the good, the funny, and the thing that makes me want to throw a pillow every time I see it.
  • I love motorcycles with sidecars.  I think they look really neat.  Sidebar: la couple weeks ago here in Pittsburgh, I saw a motorcycle cop with a sidecar.  Why?  You can't put a suspect in there, surely.  What's the point?  What goes in that sidecar?
  • No matter what you say in German, it always sounds like you're angry.
  • The golem melted a Nazi face "Raiders of the Lost Ark" style, so nice shout out there.
  • Not gonna lie, I didn't expect it to be an ACTUAL key in that box.  Thought that was metaphorical.
  • The Batcave set is EPIC, hot damn.  It's really cool, and I look forward to seeing it shot from a bunch of different angles.
  • Who hasn't wanted to flip on power like Dean did in the Batcave, right?  Those big Frankenstein switches.  You know you want to.
  • Hee, Sam said son of a bitch.
  • DEAN!  You are the best.  Slippers and a bathrobe, the sword, ILU.
  • HAL LINDEN!  I love "Barney Miller."  If you've never watched it, you really should do yourself a favor and check it out.  It's great.  And I've had the theme song stuck in my head for days since learning Hal Linden was gonna be on the show.  Now you can, too.  It's so funky, this theme song. 
  • I used to volunteer at a museum when I was in college, and you definitely wear white fabric gloves to look at an old manuscript, or when you touch any old object that shouldn't get your hand oils on it.  Good attention to detail there.
  • Dean asked about Cass.  Good continuity there.  See, all it takes is a couple lines to show that you're keeping up with what has been happening earlier in your season.
  • Sam's jacket has arm patches!  He's wearing a sweater!
  • I do not envy the casting department for this episode, having to find someone to play the golem.  Bigger than Jared AND can act?  That's a...wait for it...tall order.  Ba-zing!
  • I loved the golem.  He was so crankypants.
  • Sam knows the Library of Congress filing system.  YES!
  • Okay, here is the thing that drives me up the wall.  Every episode someone is after them or tailing them or they're in danger or whatever, and someone is inevitably like, "I'll just go over here ALONE, I'm sure nothing will happen."  IT ALWAYS HAPPENS!  You'd think they would figure it out already, for serious.  I know it's a pacing thing and stuff needs to happen to people to further the plot or whatever, but it's soooooo annoying to me.  It's like when people in LOST would be like, "I'm gonna go walking through the jungle for 8 hours, see you later" and then put their backpack over one shoulder and walk that way the entire time.  YOUR BACKPACK HAS TWO STRAPS!  USE THEM!  EVENLY DISTRIBUTE THAT WEIGHT SO YOU DON'T TIRE YOURSELF OUT AND HURT YOUR SHOULDER ON AN ISLAND WITH ONE DOCTOR AND NOT ENOUGH MEDICAL SUPPLIES!  Ahem.  Clearly I am not over that.
  • Sam warmed his hands over the Nazi necromancer body fire.  Yes.  Very good.  That is hilarious.  And of course that made Aaron think they were psychopaths because who wouldn't think that, really, if you saw someone warm their hands over a burning body fire?
  • "The boy smoked the pages." Best. Golem. Line. Ever.
  • Sam's hair was en pointe this episode.
  • "One badass Hummel figurine."  "That we don't know how to put back in the box."
  • Ooh, the scroll in his mouth.  Nice nod to golem lore there.
  • Sam must be in charge of the music in the Batcave, at least so far.
  • They're drinking together, awwwww.  And Dean's tacit approval for Sam to start geeking out caught Sam by surprise, but I think he was really pleased about it.
  • I give Dean three days before he's so bored he's crawling the walls.
  • "Paper beats golem. Fire beats undead Nazi zombie freaks."
What did you all think about the episode?  Very pleasant, solid Edlundian goodness, I thought.  Not his greatest episode ever, but very good.  And next week there's something important happening, but Dean (and I think Sam, but I was too distracted by Dean) in glasses!!!!




 

Comments  

Martha
# Martha 2013-02-06 23:56
I totally enjoyed the episode and saw it twice already! Supernatural is the best show ever! Kudos to everyone involved!
Alice
# Alice 2013-02-07 00:35
I've seen the episode twice now too, and I'm the happiest grinning fool on the planet right now! Oh, my show is back. Thank you, thank you, thank you Mr. Edlund. And welcome back Phil Sgriccia!

Oh Sammy, can I tell you how utterly elated this Sam fan is? I've died and gone to geek Heaven with him. Imagine that, all Ben Edlund had to do to get fans to love this was to FINALLY give the boys a break!

I'm typing up a glowing review so I won't say too much other than I haven't felt warm fuzzies like this after an episode in seasons! That doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed other episodes, but the heart was brought back tonight. I've missed it so much.

Edited to add: YOU ROCK ARDEOSPINA!! You actually found footage of the Barney Miller intro? I used to watch that as a kid. I didn't get the show too much, but I always loved the intro. Thank you.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-02-07 10:49
Of course I found footage of the "Barney Miller" intro! We captioned it at work, and I loved working on it. So much fun. And the theme song is the best.
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-07 00:52
Alice, I soooo agree. The pacing was excellent. The golum was wonderful, hysterical in fact! The plot is a really great development for the Men of Letters and possibly linking in with the tablets. The "bat cave"....well it is awesome! I love that Sam gets to geek out and that Dean gets to throw a few proud brotherly looks his way. He's so happy to see Sam invested and to have a base with a great shower and even some dead guy's bathrobe! The guys deserve the break. Can't wait to see the other rooms in the place.

I love that the guys are really in sync again. I loved this ep from beginning to end, twice!

I had one part I did not really get. Maybe someone had a different take: Sam asked for Dean's help when he was being tailed, so why did Dean say he'd meet him in 30 minutes in some parking lot? Didn't that seem odd? If Sam thought he was in trouble, why would they arrange a place to meet that far out? It just seemed out of place to me, but then they obviously arranged that Sam would draw out whomever and Dean would sneak up on whomever was following Sam. In the end, I guess it was ok, but their conversation about it was strange to me. It's a picky detail, but I haven't got any other complaints at all.

I'm a happy fan right now!
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-02-07 01:26
I am very happy with this episode. loved it.
About the theory Sam doing the research only, remaining out of action is not good. Brothers hunting *together* is the main reason I watch.
Sam warming is hand, Dean gay moment was just hilarious.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-07 01:29
I just loved this episode it made me smile from beginning to end. I love the golem and Aaron. They need to come back soon! I thought the golem was going to be silent. He talks! And is sarcastic and can be made angry! Yes!

It was great, made me a lot happier about other stuff too, particularly how they dealt with Sam doing research.

Yay for Sam enjoying doing research! He is clearly as happy as a pig in muck.

Do I want my main viewing of Sam to be watching Sam typing on computers, reading books and interacting with the rest of the world (Dean) by phone? No.

So we have a '2 weeks later' insert. And then the boys go have adventures. That I like! That works for me :D (Do you hear me PTB?)

Also:
Dean putting the beer back and getting whiskey to celebrate.
Sam playing the old recordings.
Dean being a samurai while Sam had his back turned and stopping when caught.
Sam dressed as a graduate student....I am a graduate student, they/we don't dress like that....but he looked cute so he is forgiven.
Sam warming his hands over the fire.
These guys are psychopaths!
Dean's (continuing) obsession with the perfect shower water pressure and Sam wanting to know why they even have water.

The Batcave is a great idea! And it looks amazing.

Keep it up guys, more Edlund/Sgriccia stuff!
Alex1
# Alex1 2013-02-07 01:41
Sorry hope that Theory don't come true in the end.
I'm glad Sam finding comfort, but I watch for 2 brothers that hunt not one. Sam just passing info along while dean hunt with strangers or just Cas don't cut it for me.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 03:31
Quote:
Sorry hope that Theory don't come true in the end.
I'm glad Sam finding comfort, but I watch for 2 brothers that hunt not one. Sam just passing info along while dean hunt with strangers or just Cas don't cut it for me.
100% agree Alex. That wouldn't be SPN, and it isn't consistent with what Sam really wants. However neither was it remotely credible that he wouldn't look for Dean so the fact that a research role would be completely ooc for Sam is, sadly, no guarantee that they won't go that route. Fingers crossed good sense will prevail.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-07 09:04
Quote:
Sorry hope that Theory don't come true in the end.
I'm glad Sam finding comfort, but I watch for 2 brothers that hunt not one. Sam just passing info along while dean hunt with strangers or just Cas don't cut it for me.
Or me. If Sam is only in the episodes the way Bobby was, SPN is dean.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-07 09:29
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry hope that Theory don't come true in the end.
I'm glad Sam finding comfort, but I watch for 2 brothers that hunt not one. Sam just passing info along while dean hunt with strangers or just Cas don't cut it for me.
Or me. If Sam is only in the episodes the way Bobby was, SPN is dean.
Should say SPN is dead. Bad fingers!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-07 09:47
I'm also chiming in to say that if Sam wants to explore and contribute to the Men of Letters' body of knowledge, that's fine but I wouldn't like to see SPN turn into Dean and Cas hunting with Sam staying in the Men of Letters' Archive. I'm watching SPN for two brothers hunting things together, so I hope that continues to happen.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-02-07 10:49
If you notice, my theory applies to AFTER the show is done airing, so you wouldn't need to watch Sam not hunting. ;)
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-07 11:27
Hi Ardeospina I think that many of us are actually afraid that that is what the PTB have planned (for reasons that remain a mystery to me) the fact that you seemed to come out and reinforce this worry was what got to us (well got to me anyway) :-)

I appreciate your clarification!

They are going to have a tightrope to walk to not turn Sam into Sam Carter the ass-kicking uber-scientist from SG1 (also known to us as Naomi) She was adorable but way too many powers! And not to turn Dean into some sort of super-soldier either.

I like the brothers.
aelaine
# aelaine 2013-02-07 02:18
Loved this episode! Yes, fanoftheboys, the pacing was very good, hadn't really noticed till this episode, but I guess once you (I) recognized it, it really stood out from the rest. Love the bat cave and love that Sam loves it and that Dean just loves being there. Great brother moment at the end, ah they (we) needed that lol. good story, great actors, love having Sam needing to look up at someone, rare occurrence. Good Show, we need this kind of pacing and great writing in every episode from now on, Edlund wouldn't mind would he?
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2013-02-07 02:49
Hi, Arde.
I really loved this eppie. It had a strong older seasons -feel to it. A really excellent piece by Edlund I might say, one of my faves for sure.

Gosh, there was so much to love...
- Sam geeking out about the batcave. And the sweater vest!! HOT!!! And smarty smartness!!! Also HOT!
- Dean playing with the scimitar. And the Dead-Guy-Robe!
- The cranky golem! Deans freak out reaction when ever it came too close. You're right Dean, I would've pissed myself for sure had I been that close to it. And it spoke! Awesome!
- The grandson Aaron. He was really well cast, I liked him a lot. Especially his introduction, "coming on" to Dean, and how D. was so cutely freaked out about that one too. And Deans "He was my gay moment". HA!
- The Eckhardt, nazi bastard guy. He was creepy too. Reminded me alot of Christoph Waltz' character Hans Landa (physically) from Inglourious Basterds.
- I also liked how the german guys spoke german and not some crappy accent (in the intro). I've always hated movies where the characters speak english to each other even if they're swedish for instance... It just takes me out of the moment. So YAY for realism!

The eppie seemed to fly by so fast. But unlike last week, this week wasn't so stock full of everything under the sun. It was really well balanced in every way.

I'm glad the bros, got some down time at the batcave and I loved how Dean obviously went stir crazy and had to go do something (check up on Kevin and/or a job) because he can only do research so much... or play with the super sharp scimitar :D Maybe he took long showers. Heck, it's all free, I'd soak there for hours too (when ever I'd get tired of oggling the boys ofcourse... or more possibly, when they'd sleep, heee!).

I haven't said this enough. Ben Edlund, you are my God.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 02:53
I loved this ep, but I totally disagree with your enthusiasm for a Bobby-like behind the scenes, stay at home and research like a coward, Sam and a hunting team of Dean and Cas. There is no way I'd watch that and IMO no way the show will go down that route. If they did that SPN would become a totally different show and not one I'd be tuning in for.

Sam doesn't want out of hunting because he is scared of facing monsters. He would never want to 'man the library' while Dean faces all the real danger without him. Personally I still don't buy the line they sold us this season that Sam still wanted out of hunting. But if he did want that, he wanted OUT completely. I can sort of, if I squint really hard, believe he'd give up hunting if he thought Dean was dead, but IMO his 'I'm not going to leave my brother alone out there' attitude still 100% stands. Still being involved in hunting, with all that requires (no normal relationships, or jobs etc) but not being out there watching Dean's back would, IMO, be the worst of all worlds for Sam.

I enjoyed the ep. The last 3 have been vast improvement on the 1st 10 eps of s8. But I hate the way the show seems to be pushing Dean and Sam into more defined, separate, constraining roles; brains vs brawn, Man of Letters vs hunter, geek vs action hero. They have always had their own strengths and Sam has always been the bookworm who loves the research, but Dean could do it too, and they're both amazing hunters. I don't like the way that is tending. They are BOTH MoLs and they are BOTH hunters.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-07 03:28
Great post, Geordiegirl! I couldn't agree more w/you esp on this: Quote:
I hate the way the show seems to be pushing Dean and Sam into more defined, separate, constraining roles; brains vs brawn, Man of Letters vs hunter, geek vs action hero. They have always had their own strengths and Sam has always been the bookworm who loves the research, but Dean could do it too, and they're both amazing hunters. I don't like the way that is tending. They are BOTH MoLs and they are BOTH hunters.
I agree that it would be a huge mistake for the writers to confine Sam and Dean to specific roles. I was nervous when Sam mentioned the hunt and Dean remarked that he had just gotten back. I thought we might just see Dean on the hunt, but Sam was there too so I hope that means the writers understand that the audience - most of the audience at least - wants to see both Sam and Dean hunting. I think I can safely say most viewers don't want to see sam research while Dean completes the hunt.
E
# E 2013-02-07 08:42
I wouldn't worry to much about Sam being sidelined, as Dean pointed out all of the information in the library terminates in 1958, hardly an up to date repository of current information that can be used on too many current cases. This one case they worked on was somewhat of a fluke. I think that the library will hold key information on what to do about the tablets and possibly play an important role in that way, and rather less to do with Sam and Dean's week to week cases.

I don't think that I've read anywhere that TPTB have plans to have Sam sitting around in the library while Dean hunts, I think that this is something the fans have been worrying about, but I haven't seen this mentioned in anything official coming out of the network. To me there's a huge difference between Sam getting his geek on and him sitting around at a phone bank discussing cases with Dean while Dean doehas all the adventures. It's Sam and Dean! Not Bond and Q. (or worse yet, Batman and Alfred!).

There's another reason that I don't think it will happen; I've heard Jared in interviews mention that he really likes the action sequences, and the fighting too. I don't really think he'd be too keen on a 'Sam the Librarian' scenario either.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-07 09:50
Quote:
I wouldn't worry to much about Sam being sidelined, as Dean pointed out all of the information in the library terminates in 1958, hardly an up to date repository of current information that can be used on too many current cases. This one case they worked on was somewhat of a fluke. I think that the library will hold key information on what to do about the tablets and possibly play an important role in that way, and rather less to do with Sam and Dean's week to week cases.

I don't think that I've read anywhere that TPTB have plans to have Sam sitting around in the library while Dean hunts, I think that this is something the fans have been worrying about, but I haven't seen this mentioned in anything official coming out of the network. To me there's a huge difference between Sam getting his geek on and him sitting around at a phone bank discussing cases with Dean while Dean doehas all the adventures. It's Sam and Dean! Not Bond and Q. (or worse yet, Batman and Alfred!).

There's another reason that I don't think it will happen; I've heard Jared in interviews mention that he really likes the action sequences, and the fighting too. I don't really think he'd be too keen on a 'Sam the Librarian' scenario either.
Phew, E, I hope this is the case :-) I really wouldn't want to see such defined roles for the Winchesters in future eps.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-02-07 10:51
If you look closely at what I said about my theory, it was to take place after the show is done airing, like a long-run plan for Sam, so you wouldn't have to watch it happen.

I also don't think researching behind the scenes and helping other hunters do their jobs more efficiently is in any way cowardly. Just because he wouldn't be on the front lines all the time doesn't make him a coward suddenly.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 18:41
Quote:
If you look closely at what I said about my theory, it was to take place after the show is done airing, like a long-run plan for Sam, so you wouldn't have to watch it happen.
Sorry still don't want this to happen. Even if I didn't have to watch it, it would still require Sam to act ooc - something I have utterly has my fill of after the not looking for Dean debacle.

Quote:
I also don't think researching behind the scenes and helping other hunters do their jobs more efficiently is in any way cowardly. Just because he wouldn't be on the front lines all the time doesn't make him a coward suddenly.
It's not about what you or I think. To me anyone involved in what they do is a hero. It's about what Sam would think. Do you really buy that he'd ever be happy to just sit safely in their comfy batcave happily sending Dean off to fight monsters all over the country. How would he ever live with himself if Dean was killed on one of those hunts? Plus this theory works on the premis that it was the danger involved in hunting that Sam wanted out of. If you believe he did want out beyond the end of s1 (which I don't) it was the whole package he wanted to leave behind.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-02-07 03:14
So much to love with this one! I loved Sam warming his hands! I wondered if that was scripted; or if Jared just naturally did that.
OH, and the glasses! To see the Hellhounds possibly? Can't wait!
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 04:11
Sam warming his hands was priceless. It kind of feels like a Jared thing to me. I had to rewind it to see if I just saw what I saw.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-02-07 03:19
I'm going to drop in here - I never usually come by before I write but I had to say....Sam warming his hands over the burning body - man, I laughed out loud, so loud!
Ok...off to rewatch...who cares if my face hurts from the smiling :-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-07 03:24
Imagine that . . . two episodes in a row that I thoroughly enjoyed! That hasn't happened for me since S6. Sadly, I didn't think that would happen again w/Supernatural.

I really enjoyed the episode. Like last week's, I thought the pacing was great and the story was good. I was very engaged in the episode. I liked both the Golem and Aaron. I liked the scenes w/the boys as well. I didn't feel anything was odd or OOC.

But as others mentioned, I will be very upset if Sam only researches from this day forward and Dean hunts. That's not something in which I'm interested. They are both active hunters. I want it to stay that way.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 04:34
I don't have a lot to say except that it was a very enjoyable episode. Aaron and the golem were both great. I am glad the golem talked, much more interesting than just have him lumbering around killing people.

Loved the batcave. So nice to see them relax some and let their hair down. How cute was Dean in that bathrobe? Sam's hair looked really gorgeous in this one.

I agree with everyone who does NOT want to see them split duties completely. Play to their strengths but keep them fighting together, that is where they shine.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 04:55
Quote:
I agree with everyone who does NOT want to see them split duties completely. Play to their strengths but keep them fighting together, that is where they shine.
^^^This!
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-02-07 06:20
completely agree.
Hellsbells
# Hellsbells 2013-02-07 06:35
I'm so happy, my vote would go way off the charts on this episode.

Loved everything about this, both Sam and Dean, and the Jewish lore with the Golem.

I too have worked in archives and good to see that not only do they carry on the little details but these last two episodes I've been thinking its a little shout out to all Library and public workers who are under threat with cuts, so anything to promote letters and history is a good thing ;-)

I thought Sam looked more geeky looking than normal this week and thought that this might be because all that research is having a wonderful effect on him.

My favourite part was when Sam warmed his hands over the Nazi necromancer body fire. Yes, it was hilarious and made me laugh out loud. Ha

fantastic episode, and agree, think Dean will be bored but within a day!
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-02-07 08:00
Sooo many things to love. It would take me to long to list. And not only that, the episode was just a great and fun story. And the closing scene a delight. "Good"
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-02-07 08:14
I keep remembering things. I'm old but at least I can remember eventually. I was so excited to see Hal Linden - Barney Miller was a favourite of mine. (also evidence of my age). Such a tribute to Hal Linden's depth that he would be on last night for such a short time and have such effect. Oh, and Sam - so good to see Sam looking fully happy and involved. I don't fear he will stop being a Hunter. The Men of Letters legacy is for both of them - the delight though, is for different reasons. Sam and Dean reasons. And they are finding their "home" again - together. Love it!
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-02-07 08:29
Oh my, I love, love, loved this episode! It had me laughing out loud so many times. The beginning was very "Raiders" to me, and I too am glad that they spoke German and not English with bad German accents, that was okay for "Hogans Heroes". Dean in a bathrobe and slippers, yum. He sure does like his showers, doesn't he? Do you think that means that Sam takes baths? Nah, he wouldn't fit in the tub! :lol: Okay, now I'm thinking Winchesters and ablutions. :oops: I'm back...no one more moment, allright now I'm back.

Sam dressed as a scholar, swoon. Dean playing with the scimitar behind Sam's back and then cutting himself! His "gay moment"! That great Golem. Aaron. The Nazi Necromancers. Oh, basically I just loved everything about this episode, I can't wait to get home to watch it again.
Quote:
Sam knows the Library of Congress filing system. YES!
Funnily, that was my favourite part. Being a librarian, it made me so proud that he would recognize a LC call number! Although my clientele is not quite as handsome...I wish! ;-)

Next week, Dean in glasses! I'm swooning again! :D
Hades
# Hades 2013-02-07 09:20
They're not exactly glasses, they're more like the safetly googles we had to wear in the workshop or the lab at school and both brothers are wearing them so they can see the hell hounds.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-02-07 13:38
But they are still really cute in them, no? :lol:
prix68
# prix68 2013-02-07 08:35
I liked this episode and loved that the boys have a safe home base filled with research material. I think it will up their game and help fill the hole Bobby left. I will always miss Bobby. I don' t think it will diminish Sam's hunting role at all since Bobby hunted with the boys and other hunters and Garth does as well. Sam has always done research and this will actually make it easier for him to find information. I really like the direction this season is taking even with some of the angst suffered in the first half. After seven and a half seasons it's good to see the show keeps growing and maturing and widening its horizons. At least IMO.
st50
# st50 2013-02-07 08:36
LOVED it.
I was thoroughly convinced that this episode didn't have a chance of standing up to all its hype, and almost didn't watch it.....but it really kind of did.
The thought of a non-clay, clay golem had me scratching my head, but of course, if anyone could, Edlund is the one to make it work.
So many good lines. Great pacing... And Sam was actually effective! One of the few times this season. Thank you again, Edlund. Thank Chuck.
Hal Linden's part was so short, I wanted more, but gosh he's still amazing, isn't he?
Oh, and Aaron and his golem can come back, as far as I'm concerned. They're fun.

As for the Sammy-manning-t he-books-and-ph ones idea, Ardeospina... I can see that happening ONLY after the boys retire from active hunting. BOTH of them. NO WAY Sam would stay out, and let Dean hunt without him. The idea of Dean hunting, regularly, with ANYONE other than Sam is cringe-worthy at best. And the end of the Show for me.
Just No.

Final comment. More Edlund. More Sgriccia. Please?
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 18:46
Quote:
As for the Sammy-manning-the-books-and-phones idea, Ardeospina... I can see that happening ONLY after the boys retire from active hunting. BOTH of them. NO WAY Sam would stay out, and let Dean hunt without him. The idea of Dean hunting, regularly, with ANYONE other than Sam is cringe-worthy at best. And the end of the Show for me.
Just No.
Totally agree.
galen
# galen 2013-02-07 09:01
This episode made me so happy. Loved the library shout out as my mother was a school librarian. Sam in a vest with patches - very yummy. Loved that this highlighted Sam's strengths as a researcher as well as hunter. Laughed so hard at Dean and dead man's bathrobe and his look of shock at his first encounter with the golem. A five star episode that will go in my top 25.
E
# E 2013-02-07 09:05
I absolutely loved this episode. It had such great pacing, interesting guest characters and Sam and Dean working together pretty much the whole time. Snappy dialogue, great humor, interesting issues, and some moral dilemma. Feels like old times!

I loved that the Golem could talk and was a character in his own right, and I also loved Sam acknowledging standard lore by commenting that Golem's aren't supposed to be able to talk. Supernatural often plays fast and loose with established historical lore (Samhain) but it was nice to see them acknowledge their messing about with it.

I really liked Aaron a lot. He was totally likable even in his less than flattering moments (he SMOKED an ancient Jewish relic? A gift from his grandfather and a family legacy no less he!) He fits in beautifully with the current theme of reluctant hero. He's about as reluctant as they come, and yet still managed to dig deep to realize what was important to him about his history and culture, his past and his grandfather to soldier on in his grandfather's place. He's a lot like Sam in this and not that unlike Kevin as well. I also like that the Golem got to continue on and didn't have to be killed. Aaron learned how to control him by the end, and the two came to an understanding about the balance between modern life and familial responsibility and the importance of a family legacy. Nice.

Dean in a bathrobe, what's not to love?
Sam warming his hands over the necromancer's burning body.....ha!
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 09:33
Loved the episode and loved that the most tangible change the boys made to the batcave was a fridge in the conference room. That just charmed me no end. And then when Dean put the beers away for the good scotch, I was all, man, this is why we love the show. They may not always get things right, and we may get frustrated with some choices or aspects or retcons, but when they take the time to put that little part in, it makes it all okay.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-07 09:42
I liked the episode. It had more of a season 1 or 2 feel to it. Liked that Sam got to be more involved in the action this episode, finally! 2 epis in a row I will rewatch.
If JC was not going to show Sam looking for Dean why didn't they just go with the MOL mytharc instead of the boring drivel we got in the first 10 (? not sure how many it was with Dean and Sam at each others' throats) episodes? All that useless fighting just angered too many people.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 18:51
Quote:
If JC was not going to show Sam looking for Dean why didn't they just go with the MOL mytharc instead of the boring drivel we got in the first 10 (? not sure how many it was with Dean and Sam at each others' throats) episodes? All that useless fighting just angered too many people.
I'm with you here. I've really hated eps 1-10 this season. I just cannot get past the ooc Sam not looking for Dean. It has come very close to ruining the show for me. At least the last 3 eps have been far better.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-07 20:14
I agree with this as well. This was a good episode and I did enjoy it, but for me the show is losing its appeal because of the Sam not looking for Dean aspect. The improvement in the last 2 episodes is enough that I'll hold on for a while, but unless the Sam issue gets explained in a way that satisfies me, I think I might be done. I just can't get over the fact that there has been NO examination of Sam's mindset when Dean disappeared and no real explanation of why Sam didn't look for Dean.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-02-08 10:09
Me too! The "Sam not looking for dean" with an explanation scratched out of nothing, the almost invisible Sam POV, managed it to ruin the entire season 8 for me too. No matter what they bring right now, fix Sam...and really... is all I need!
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2013-02-09 08:49
Jo, I read somewhere..somo ne said it at twitter, that they made the brother "conflict" the first couple of episodes because of the ratings! I don't know how this should have a repercussiuon to ratings, to fuel in an unnatural way the brother conflict...beca use it was unnatural all of it, Dean's secret, Sam's reaction, not looking for Dean, jealous of Benny (it seems), Dean's better brothers, why in gods name would Dean not tell Sam about the vampire who saved and protected him, Sam would be the last one not to understand this.

Maybe the ratings ups are useful now in a time where the CW decides to renew shows for the next season, so an increasing in the right time would do that with SPN, especially where the brother centric (in a good way) episodes are coming now in a row.

Sadly it did coast my total enjoyment of the season as a whole with those first couple of episodes also...:(((
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-02-07 09:58
Enjoyed this episode from the brilliant but twisted mind of Ben Edlund. It's always a fine day when Nazis are getting tossed about and ganked by a 7' tall man of clay.

Have seen a lot on some threads this year about Sam taking a research/"Bobby " type role and giving up hunting - couldn't disagree more. I think Dean's time in Purgatory gave him his "Raison d'etre", which is being a hunter. Sam has struggled with his sense of purpose this season, being conflicted about hunting and leading a normal "apple pie" life. Meeting his grandfather and learning about the "Men of Letters" and his and Dean's legacy has given him his "Raison D'etre" (wow, used that twice in a paragraph) and is leading him to the realization that, for him, this life is his "normal".


Having Sam use his book smarts and strengths as a researcher, and a damn good hunter, in no way diminishes Dean. Dean is a great hunter; bright, clever and resourceful. And besides, as Sam said at the end of season 6 when he was trying to put himself back together, "I'm not leaving my brother alone out there".
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 10:03
I have finally rolled out of lurker mode and have some thoughts that I want to share re: this episode, particularly that I feel like the show (canon, not fanon) has been leading up to Dean outing himself. Is that okay for this site, or should I go away? I'm not talking about shipping or Destiel or Denny or Wincest, I'm talking about why this season about "perception" is starting to nag at my mind about Dean's perception of himself.

So if that's not okay, Admins, let me know and I'll go away. :-)
Alice
# Alice 2013-02-07 10:17
Don't go away! Of course it is okay. We are a site that welcomes and values all fan opinions.

Please, write as much as you want about this episode. Let's Speculate articles are free zones, so you can stray a bit too into this season if you wish. Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 10:20
Please, write as much as you want about this episode. Let's Speculate articles are free zones, so you can stray a bit too into this season if you wish. Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this.

Hah! Well, as my husband says, be careful what you ask for... ;-)
st50
# st50 2013-02-07 10:59
hey kristin.
I've heard that said in a few places.
In my opinion, Dean doesn't need to "out" himself. He's not gay - or bi or whatever - he's simply a man who enjoys being admired, in whatever way possible. It helps with his self-esteem issues.
:-)
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 11:55
Have to agree st50, Dean squirms but he seems to enjoy it. I wouldn't have a problem if they decided to explore the possibility either. It would take awhile to wrap my mind around it after all these years of womanizing. I have to admit that when Dean told Benny that he didn't regret anything they did down there, emphasis on the anything, that my mind went there.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 12:27
Have you? I mean, from last night? I've seen it before in fandom and canon but I'm so curious if I've been overreading all of this.

I actually think you prove my point a bit about "the gay thing" though - he's always been okay with flirting and being flirted with by anyone, because he's Dean Winchester and who wouldn't want to flirt with that? - but last night was sort of epically comically significant in that he's either not okay or not aware.

Or he's just sure he's being tailed and when that's not it, he's thrown. I hope that's not it, frankly. Cause that's not nearly as interesting. ;-)

Re: Dean enjoying being admired (which he clearly does) set against his self-esteem issues, I think we could start a whole thread on just that point alone. :-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-07 13:59
Why would Dean being gay make him more interesting to you? Just curious. No harm intended.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 18:44
Quote:
Why would Dean being gay make him more interesting to you? Just curious. No harm intended.
Hi - not that being gay is more interesting but the idea of him being thrown by random stalker dude (even one with a golum) is not as interesting as Dean being thrown by flirting. He's usually so accepting and happy to be objectified that the fact that he missed it is just more compelling.

It makes me wonder of the "eye magic on the quad" scene was written or filmed. The actors certainly had chemistry in the bar scenes, so it may have always been unplanned but it does make me curious. Or more curious. :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-07 10:59
My belief is that the writers can do anything they want, so there's always a chance it will happen. Personally I don't see what it would add to the show. This isn't a soap opera so the struggles of a hunter admitting he is gay just doesn't fit in. Either you have Sam being horribly homophobic, or Sam being supportive, or Sam not caring. In either case I don't see what a gay man could or could not do to affect the mythology or the cases. It just seems kind of late in the run to suddenly do a "very special episode" where Dean decides that he never truly enjoyed sleeping with all those girls he has slept with. If they go that way okay, as long as we don't get any relationships that are more explored than Sam and Amelia. And no romantic partners riding in the back seat.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 12:37
I am so with you that I don't want to see SPN: The Soap Opera (or any more of that than we currently have, LOL) so it honestly never occurred to me what the overarching result of Dean being bi/gay would be. I personally don't feel a lot of judgment or expectations from the hunter community or the boys, which is probably why it hasn't occurred to me that there would be any negative backlash or anything.

The thing that occurs to me about Dean being out is that HE might be happier to be in a real, committed, healthy (well, ya know, SPN healthy) relationship. Lisa didn't do it for him - if I've learned anything from Season 6, it's that being Lisa taught Dean that the last thing he wants is that "apple pie life." So maybe he didn't and doesn't want it - and it didn't work - because his version of apple pie is different. And coming to terms with that - in the context of SAM'S version of "apple pie" (sleeping with a married woman is apple pie, huh? okay, I'll shut up now), what he was doing when he wasn't hunting, is somehow bringing things up for Dean. IDK. But it sure is interesting.

But, please god, no "very special episode." My god. If this warranted more than two conversations in the Impala, it would be one too many. But I would be happy if it made Dean happy.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-07 11:12
Quote:
I have finally rolled out of lurker mode and have some thoughts that I want to share re: this episode, particularly that I feel like the show (canon, not fanon) has been leading up to Dean outing himself. Is that okay for this site, or should I go away? I'm not talking about shipping or Destiel or Denny or Wincest, I'm talking about why this season about "perception" is starting to nag at my mind about Dean's perception of himself.

So if that's not okay, Admins, let me know and I'll go away. :-)
Hi Kristin, to be honest, I can easily believe that Dean is Bi. In past episodes/season s, I've read Dean's behaviour, at times, as overcompensatin g somewhat (i.e. the OTT horndoggery and, also, in lots of episodes he rather vehemently denies "swinging that way") and as being uber-macho in situations that don't necessarily call for it. Now, this behaviour could just come from him being raised to be a man's man and tough as nails by Drill Sergeant John Winchester, or it could be that Dean's covering up so that others won't see his personal insecurities and the sensitive parts of his nature, or it could also be a man who is repressing a part of himself (and his sexuality).

It's an interesting topic to consider.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 12:19
I've always had a head-fanon or whatever version where Dean is situationally bisexual, non-judgmental, etc, too. So it doesn't feel odd or uncharacteristi c or whatever to me that he would come out.

Maybe because of where I come from in life, or fandom, or whatever, I didn't even think about what Dean being gay could mean in terms of personal exploration, or being conflicted or whatever. Which is my bad, because if we've learned anything about Dean in the past 8 years, it's that he really doesn't like himself much, and he doesn't value himself much, and basically despite all the evidence to the contrary, he will believe the worst of himself. So if they are going to do a "Dean is bi" (which is the only honest choice, since he likes the ladies, too) story, I suppose it won't be just "hey, he's bi", it will be a lot more conflicted and difficult. Sigh. I guess I just want him to be HAPPY. And for him and Sam to be happy.

I think I'm drinking a lot of the MOL koolaid right now - and loving it, gotta admit, after almost six months of "Sammy didn't look for Dean and Dean's just gotta forgive him" that didn't really sit well with me. I'm hoping against hope that this (all of the angst and sad and differences) really goes somewhere.

Because as much as I love a tragic and desperate Dean and Sam, I am really, really really hoping for a happy ending for them both. If that includes Dean and Cas in the Batmobile (cough:Impala:c ough) while Sammy mans "the Hub" with his wifey and two kids, I'll deal. Because it means somewhere, someday, they might both climb in the Impala again and head out for the road. :-)
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 12:41
Batpala? :-) I just want them to be happy too, I think we all do. Your scenario is kind of a nice thought for how to leave it at the series end. I want them scrapping and fighting together till the end though.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-07 14:47
Batmopala
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 18:22
:-) Better Kaz1!
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 18:28
Impmobile
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-07 22:56
Leah and Kristin
I'm lovin it!
Nooot happy with the Impala parked outside the batcave though. What a dead give away. Don't want Crowley/Naomi/M OTW to mess with them just yet, they seem so :D. What did you think of the ep
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-08 07:27
I know Kaz, but we know it can't last! I have a comment somewhere here but it was thumbs-up for me. One of the best this season. The Impala, maybe something in batcave to cloak, who knows?
kaj
# kaj 2013-02-09 07:38
I love Impmobile!

I can just see Dean shouts. "Sammy! To the ImpMobile!"
And Sam rolling his eyes bringing a bunch of research papers following Dean more sedately. Just to annoy his big brother of course.

hehehehe.....
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 18:46
Bat opals. It's like the second thing you say! ;-)
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 18:47
Man I hate autocorrect. Batmopala. What are "bat opals" anyway?
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 18:59
Really bad gems. :)
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 22:33
Really bad. Like epically.

What writes code that replaces "Batmopala" with "bad opals"? Seriously. That's a whole new level of f'ed up.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 18:56
Quote:
I have finally rolled out of lurker mode and have some thoughts that I want to share re: this episode, particularly that I feel like the show (canon, not fanon) has been leading up to Dean outing himself. Is that okay for this site, or should I go away? I'm not talking about shipping or Destiel or Denny or Wincest, I'm talking about why this season about "perception" is starting to nag at my mind about Dean's perception of himself.

So if that's not okay, Admins, let me know and I'll go away. :-)
You are of course entitled to your opinion and to state it here. However I totally disagree with your take. Dean is 100% straight. That is canon. No question whatsoever IMO. So I think what you think you are seeing is wishful thinking with a huge dollop of projection.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 21:23
Quote:

Dean is 100% straight. That is canon. No question whatsoever IMO. So I think what you think you are seeing is wishful thinking with a huge dollop of projection.
I can totally buy that - me projecting my worldview on SPN is basically what happens anyway, but I gotta say, this feels like more than that. And while we may disagree about it, I respect all the perspectives on the episode. It's why I posted about it - I'm really just genuinely interested in what we saw in the episode.

My thing is, if Ben Edlund wanted to write a funny scene where Dean got hit on by a guy he could have. And if he wanted to have a situationally funny way for Aaron and Dean to meet - done. But the thing I keep going back to is that the script, the actors, the direction, the whole thing, it just seems like overkill for a "hah, isn't that funny, Dean getting hit on again. By a guy."

And I guess that's my other issue with this - if it's not meant to be anything more than funny, why do they bring it up so much? Once would work - the scene with the girls and the flirty waving, twice also gets the point across (the scene with Aaron and Dean in the bar, three times (telling Sam "I thought I was being tailed but it was a gay thing), four times ("he's my gay thing"). Do you need to say it FOUR times to make this joke? When's the last time SPN said *anything* like that and it didn't mean anything? When a show has 42 minutes, why spend this much time making an offhand funny about how cutely Dean is surprised he's being hit on by a guy?

The reason I see more here is because it's the show, it's the writers, it's the direction and chemistry with Aaron and Dean, which I think we can all agree far outweighs Dean's with those jailbait "hot girls, it's the time they spent on it. When the executive producer of the show keeps writing more lines for the main characters to say - this viewer has to wonder... WHY? If it's just because it's funny, that's kinda redundant although it was funny the first, second (especially) and even third time. The fourth time? What do they say about the second time is coincidence, so...

I respect your opinion as well - I appreciate it. I'm not here to start a slash war; I don't have any agenda. I'm just talking about what I saw. So I appreciate that we saw it differently; it is different than what we got in the previous episodes (until this year with the Sam/Amelia versus Benny/Dean and the "did you break up with someone too?" and the other canon stuff). So I can buy it. I just don't know - I guess that's the thing. I don't know. :-)
kaj
# kaj 2013-02-09 07:48
Hi, Geordiegirl1967 and Kristin

I've read bot your comment and I have to say that I agree with Kristin.

Hi, Kristin. I hope you still watching this thread because I'd like your opinion on this. I know that many people in this thread is a bit if not more disturbed by the implication that 'Dean maybe gay' thing. I can't speak for them but I think if I want to be disturbed by it, my reason will be that because Dean (and Sam, of course) is my hero. And I tend to romanticize him a bit, if not more. I'm a woman who have sexual orientation towards man. So, if I'm attracted to a man I'd be broken hearted if that man turned out to be gay or perhaps bi.

I don't want Dean to be 'gay' because of my personal romanticizing him as my hero. That's me, I don't know what others reason is. Maybe the same as me? BUT what I want to emphasize here is, yes, I see what Kristin see. And if it turned out to be true that Dean someday, when he feels comfortable, comes out, I won't be bothered by it.

Few weeks ago, I saw this show on midnight TV regarding bisexuality. There are psychologists and experts in the discussion panel. The gist is that EVERYONE OF US is bisexual. Now, don't get mad at me, yet. It's what the expert say. We are all bisexual but the level of our bisexuality may differ from one and another. Let's say from 1 to 10 Dean's level of Bisexuality probably 6. Sam maybe 4 or 3. But I'm not a psychologist and the one who can measure up Sam's and Dean's sexuality are themselves. With the condition that they HAVE to be honest with themselves. Because we're the only one who can measure ourselves.

Homophobia person may have high level of bisexuality but too afraid to admit it so they are in denial all their life.

What I get after watching the psychologists and experts discussion is that there's NO ONE who is 100% straight. So, I will not say Dean is 100% straight because he's not 100% straight. No one does. People who said that they are 100% straight is (a) they don't know themselves or (b) they are in denial.

There is one example on that night show. One girl, an actress, had a dream once about kissing a woman. So she tried to kiss her girlfriend just to find out if she was bi or even gay. The psychologist asked what her level of bisexuality. She said "maybe 7" . Then the show invited another girl who had an experience of being in a relationship with another girl for two years. The actress thrown out of chair almost literally when she listened to the girl's experiences. The psychologist then asked the actress again what is her level of bisexuality now after she listened to the real experience of a Bisexual girl.

And guess what she said? She said, "Now, that I listened to her stories I'm not sure that I'm at 7 anymore. Could be lower than that."

You see, measuring one self can be tough. But what I gather from that midnight show is never be ashamed to measure yourself. Denying ourselves can prevent us to reach a true happiness.

I'm not a homophobes, although yes in my society, moral value of my family and religion, Gay is considered bad. But I will not say that I'm 100% straight. I'm not interested in sleeping with another girl but I can admire other girl's prettiness and sexiness. And that according to the psychologists is the level of our bisexuality.

The level of bisexuality is from 1 to 10. There's no level zero. I'm at 3. It may change of course.

What level are you?
What is it that bother you if Dean is bi?
(This is an honest question for all of commenter and I have no intention to offend. It's difficult to measure ourselves. So, I think to measure Dean we'll need a deeper character study)

PS: I'm sorry in advance if my words may offend. English is not my first language so maybe I made mistake in the wordings.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-02-09 00:42
Totally agree Geordiegirl1967 ! I personally don't give this idea any more credence than I gave the 'Amelia's pregnant' discussion that took place after last week's episode.

That's not to say that others can't speculate about it, but I honestly cannot see the creators of Supernatural going down either of those paths. They are way too melodramatic!

This is just my humble opinion and if I'm proven wrong later, feel free to come back and say "I told you so" :lol:
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-07 10:04
I enjoyed last week's episode more than this week's and to be honest, I'm not entirely sure why that is :-? I do know that when I saw the opening part of this week's episode my initial thought was, "Nazis....reall y...?"

Everyone put in good performances in this episode and there were things for both Winchesters to do in solving the problem of the week (I always like to see both brothers having a role in solving problems) but I think my uncertainty about the show's direction, so far this season, is making me suspicious of everything I see and it makes me wonder what the relevance of things will be to future plot developments.

I do like to see the writers taking steps to repair Sam and Dean's relationship, although, ideally, I'd still like to see the process of repair happening on screen rather than just being shown the results (with the repairing taking place off screen). But these days, after many seasons of conflict between Sam and Dean, I'll count my blessings and hope the repaired relationship sticks *crosses fingers*
Amy
# Amy 2013-02-07 10:21
As to Dean bringing in a sound system to play classic rock? NO...unless Dean gets his feet off the table and actiacly helps in research and cataloging he is shot gun in the MOL warehouse and Sam is the driver.

adn as we know....Driver picks the music...shotgun shuts his cakehole. I really think the music playing is very condusive to Sam thinking and concentrating. It fits him...until he plugs in his Ipod.

Loved the episode. Loved the gollum. Love the boys working together...no seperation of duties....both boys should and can do both hunting and MOL. Its called multitasking. Aaron and the Gollon are welcome back anytime. Loved them and loved the Sam got to interact as well.

Sadly my love for show since epiode 11 still can't overcome my loathing for the first 10 episodes and the randomness of the in fighting and the horrible idea of Sam not looking for Dean. The pointlessness of both Benny the super vampire and Amiela the aweful.

Season 8, no matter how good future episodes are is firmly in the failure column.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-07 10:53
I agree this was a great episode, but it is going to take a lot to wash away the Sam not even looking for Dean issue. It tainted the first part of the season for me and will continue to taint the show. I can put it aside when episodes are good enough, but I'm still dissatisfied even then.
st50
# st50 2013-02-07 10:57
Quote:
I agree this was a great episode, but it is going to take a lot to wash away the Sam not even looking for Dean issue. It tainted the first part of the season for me and will continue to taint the show. I can put it aside when episodes are good enough, but I'm still dissatisfied even then.
I agree with you there, percy.
They have to FIX it.
At this point, I'm going with "the first 10-12 episodes NEVER HAPPENED. It was all a nightmare." Until and unless they actually fix the first part, in my head, the season started here.
*fingers in ears* lalalalalalalal alallalalalala
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 18:53
I am not sure yet what to do with the previous episodes of,this season. My concerns about 80% are large but I also like some of it. This is my first season watching so I'm struggling to enjoy and wait to see where they take us - I watched season 6 with the benefit of knowing sam was soulless and enjoyed it more than I sense other people did, so it does make me wonder. But the first half of this year is pretty hard to reconcile with earlier versions of Sam and Dean.

I hope they do "fix it" but I'm not holding my breath.
E
# E 2013-02-08 22:12
Hey Percy.
This Pollyanna is STILL hoping that there is SOMETHING relevant to the whole 'not looking' debacle. (God, I hope that I am right about this) you know, some end of season bombshell just in time to torment us for the summer helllatus?? That is my hope anyway...
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-09 15:35
I really hope so. If there is something, I feel like the longer they wait to get to it, the more damage that is done to Sam's character. Maybe it will be really good, but I'm also prepared for Sam just didn't look and that is that,
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-07 10:58
Oh Amy sorry, I didn't see your post until now! - I just said exactly the same thing about the music, one of the great bones of contention since the show started :D
Amy
# Amy 2013-02-07 11:29
Quote:
Oh Amy sorry, I didn't see your post until now! - I just said exactly the same thing about the music, one of the great bones of contention since the show started :D
Yeah seriously didn't help when Dean carelessly unplugged Sams ipod and threw it away.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-07 12:56
Though that was funny too ;-)

Different music tastes in a car is such a believably brother issue.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 18:59
Quote:
Sadly my love for show since epiode 11 still can't overcome my loathing for the first 10 episodes and the randomness of the in fighting and the horrible idea of Sam not looking for Dean. The pointlessness of both Benny the super vampire and Amiela the aweful.

Season 8, no matter how good future episodes are is firmly in the failure column.
Sadly I totally agree.
kaj
# kaj 2013-02-09 09:48
Quote:
Sadly my love for show since epiode 11 still can't overcome my loathing for the first 10 episodes and the randomness of the in fighting and the horrible idea of Sam not looking for Dean. The pointlessness of both Benny the super vampire and Amiela the aweful.

Season 8, no matter how good future episodes are is firmly in the failure column.
Agree. Although, I haven't make a judgement on season 8 in general. I will happily disregard epi 1-10. It turns out to be just a dream life for Sam that's just that. A dream. Just like how Sam's FB were shot with the dreamlike glow all around. Agree with st50 too, to me it was all just a nightmare. Awful Awful Nightmare. I hope I can salt and burn those first 10 episodes so it's ghost won't rise again bringing more awful repercussions.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 11:12
So last night's episode (in addition to being freakin' awesome) seemed like a step on a Season 8long series of Dean coming out as being bisexual. Yeah, I'm just laying it out there.

I think this season of "perception," of self-discovery, of what the boys "want" versus what they have to do, is subtly and not so subtly leading Dean to a sexual identify realization.

First, there are all of the parallels between Amelia for Sam and Benny for Dean from the very beginning and through to the "breakup" episode and the choices both made to pick "the life" over their relationships.

Then two weeks ago, we got Charlie asking Dean if he broke up with someone, too. This question - and the implication, which struck Dean as much as it struck viewers, I suspect - was important because this question is coming from an openly gay character who won't judge or care, and the aligned with the fact she's only aware of this because of what Dean's telling her. You can almost see Dean turning the idea over in his head before they move on.

And now this "gay thing", which was awkward, cute and for longer than necessary part of the story last night. And even once the textual references to the "gay thing" ended, there's something subtle that Jensen seems to be doing with the guest star, flirting without flirting, eye magic, chemistry, something.

And I don't know, I just wonder. Because the flirting, we've seen before. The gay thing, we've seen before. Why is Dean so thrown? And why does he comment on it - twice - to Sam? And why does it throw Sam so much? Okay, it could be just for comedy (it was funny!) but it's a lot for just a joke, given how important these little things always seem to be in this series.

As I've learned watching and rewatching the series, these kinds of moments are not usually by accident. And given that I don't think Edlund or Sgriccia or anyone on SPN thinks straight guys getting hit on by other straight guys is really just har-har funny, I'm wondering if the show is hinting at something else. And I hope they are - what I'm loving most about the latest episodes is some kind of future for these boys beyond ending "bloody and sad." The last year in particular (even the beginning of this year) seemed about destroying everything they had. If this is part of their new world, their new life, I'm so happy - because it means there is hope for them. After all they've done, there should be.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-07 13:19
I have to say this even though I seem to be the only one not getting this subtext...
For me Dean's interactions with gay (or pretending to be gay) characters are meant to imply that even though he is straight, and has learned to be uncomfortable around gay guys, he is always polite (and charming) in his refusals of their advances. In other words it is showing that it isn't necessary to be rude, aggressive, insulting etc if you aren't interested in someone for whatever reason.
I actually really like that aspect of Dean. That he isn't nearly as aggressive and unable to understand others as he sometimes appears/pretend s to be.
I could be wrong, and Show could show me to be wrong, however I personally don't believe that Dean is either gay or bisexual.
For me a pretty good example of how to have a gay character in a series like this is in Warehouse 13, here I think it just ignores years of character building for the sake of an unnecessary twist.
Also is it a good idea for a show to imply that if a guy approaches another guy and is politely refused he ought to assume that the refuser is just repressing his sexual preferences?
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-02-07 13:36
Well U r not only one. Just because Dean was not rude with Aaron doesn't mean he is gay/bi. I think Dean was flustered by being the receiving end of male attention and secretly love it. (who doesn't?)
All those subtext can be writers deliberately teasing slash fans.
Personally I don't care about Dean's sexuality as long as it don't become main arc. Imagine supernatural becoming a love story...shudders.

ps - I m not a homophobe.
in case I m misunderstood.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 21:43
I just wanted to say - even if we don't agree, I don't think that makes anyone homophobic or anything.

I don't always see Sam the way you guys do. Or Dean, or Castiel. But it's all good.

Not that you care what *I* think, but I just wanted to say that. Because I know there's a lot of love here for Sam and Dean and SPN and TPTB and I am just trying to talk about how I saw the episode.

So I get it - totally get it - that I'm a bit on the outside looking in on this. I do know that I'm bringing my own biases and perspective to this discussion (and I appreciate how that colors my view), just as you are.

Thanks for being nice enough to let me play in y'alls sandbox. I've been watching and lurking for awhile, and somehow last night's episode finally pushed all of this out of me.

I love the conversation; thanks for not dismissing as a crazed slasher fan (even though I am, of course!) and actually giving me feedback.

You know what really rocks? That we have almost half the season (and future seasons) to find out who is right! That's the most awesomest part of SPN. :-)
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-07 14:06
I'm w/you, Elif. I don't think Dean is gay/bisexual either. I also don't think the show is playing Dean as anything other than a heterosexual man.

Plus, I don't see what the point would be in Dean coming out of the closet now. How does that advance the story? It would be, IMO, a radical change in character for shock value or something.

JMO.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 21:54
Lala and others - see, that's not where my head went, at all. I think I'm just still so new to SPN that I don't think through what these things mean to Dean and Sam.

I'm mostly just so gratified that Sam seems happier and Dean seems happier, and okay, I'll say it, there's no gold-tilted Amelia flashbacks that I'm freakin' ecstatic.

I love the hopefulness of this episode. Sam (whatever they've done to him this season) seems better. Dean seems better. Yeah, I still have issues. Yeah, I still scratch my head about what we now so far about Sam's year while Dean was dead. But I'm also willing to put it behind me and accept this new, happier, hope-ful-er (fuck, my English degree just burnt into cinders) version of Sam and Dean and what they do.

Would Dean coming out change the show or the brothers? IDK. Honestly. Didn't even consider it. I took off my Wincest hat and my shipper hat and just kinda reacted to what they showed us.

Would I like to see where this *could* take us? Yes. Like I enjoyed Dean and Lisa. Soulless Sam. Dean selling his soul for Sam. The long slow march to Sam saying yes to Satan. I would enjoy it, mostly because it means there's something to enjoy.

I do hope the stuff I've commented about this season (not just this episode) isn't just for shits and grins. I think that would be a shame; do we really have time for lame Amelia flashbacks where Sam never got a birthday cake before (yeah, right!) and so on when we're dealing with demon tablets and angel tablets and so on? I don't know.

I frankly don't care who Dean sleeps with. I just want him and Sam to (1) keep being on my TV in new episodes 23 times a year and (2) not die bloody and sad. That's really all I care about. I don't want Sam or Dean (or Bobby or Castiel or even John and Mary and Ellen and Ash and so on) to end sad and bloody. I frankly don't want them to end at all but when they do, I hope it's a good ending that makes sense and lets us fans hope.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-07 15:21
Quote:
For me Dean's interactions with gay (or pretending to be gay) characters are meant to imply that even though he is straight, and has learned to be uncomfortable around gay guys, he is always polite (and charming) in his refusals of their advances. In other words it is showing that it isn't necessary to be rude, aggressive, insulting etc if you aren't interested in someone for whatever reason.
I actually really like that aspect of Dean. That he isn't nearly as aggressive and unable to understand others as he sometimes appears/pretends to be.
I could be wrong, and Show could show me to be wrong, however I personally don't believe that Dean is either gay or bisexual.
I'm on board with this. I would even go so far as to posit that perhaps Charlie helped Dean understand a bit more what it's like to be LBGT. Just perhaps. Because if you recall, Dean has been weirded out in the past by such things, and I agree with the macho-overcompe nsating bit. I think it's just because he's insecure - not in his sexuality, but in general. He been taught that to be a man means to be gruff and hard and macho, and everything that goes along with that. I too was surprised by his polite and almost befuddled reaction to being admired (hit on?) by a gay man in this episode. You could see him struggling with it, struggling with how to respond. And for once he didn't come across as overly aggressive or snide or completely grossed out.

Personally though, I loved the "gay thing" joke. Hilarious. :)
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-02-07 15:25
Glad to hear everyone saw what I saw. It was made to be a funny scene; and it was! It was cute how flustered he got when he thought he was being hit on. I took it that he got flustered because he isn't into men, so he didn't really know how to respond. We all know he has no trouble responding to a woman in that same circumstance! ...DROOL!!!
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-02-07 19:03
Quote:
I have to say this even though I seem to be the only one not getting this subtext...
For me Dean's interactions with gay (or pretending to be gay) characters are meant to imply that even though he is straight, and has learned to be uncomfortable around gay guys, he is always polite (and charming) in his refusals of their advances. In other words it is showing that it isn't necessary to be rude, aggressive, insulting etc if you aren't interested in someone for whatever reason.
I actually really like that aspect of Dean. That he isn't nearly as aggressive and unable to understand others as he sometimes appears/pretends to be.
I could be wrong, and Show could show me to be wrong, however I personally don't believe that Dean is either gay or bisexual.
For me a pretty good example of how to have a gay character in a series like this is in Warehouse 13, here I think it just ignores years of character building for the sake of an unnecessary twist.
Also is it a good idea for a show to imply that if a guy approaches another guy and is politely refused he ought to assume that the refuser is just repressing his sexual preferences?
OF COURSE you aren't the only one not getting the alleged 'Dean is bi' subtext because I strongly believe it ain't there. He didn't want to hurt the guys feelings. Dean is straight. It's canon.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 21:38
Quote:
I have to say this even though I seem to be the only one not getting this subtext...
eilf and others - I hope I'm not implying that if you didn't see it this way that you're not getting something from the show... I am just really trying to understand why I got this so strongly last night and again when I re-watched it today (thanks to a sick day, and the fever is probably not helping be coherent at all).

I absolutely get that most probably don't see this context in the writing. Like many things I pick up on from SPN, it's subtle. What I love about this show is that there are Sam girls and Dean girls and "what's a slash fan?" and we're all welcome to play in the paddling pool. And they seem to make sure we all get a little wink and a nod at some point. I cannot emphasize how much I love that.

So, yeah, I can buy that it was all just a joke. That the reaction was for fun, and to show how to unnerve and discombobulate Dean, or to introduce Aaron. Fine. And except for the stuff I mentioned earlier (Dean's relationship with Benny, his talk with Charlie, etc.) I agree that Dean "coming out" seems out of character. And I'll probably be proven wrong by future episodes. But it sure is fun to talk about!

And I really like the way Dean responds (in the past, and here) to flirting or whatever from that side of the Kinsey scale; it's not aggressively heterosexually threatened, it's much more nuanced than that. If all straight guys were as comfortable with it as Dean seems to be, the world would be a better place... but I would argue that most straight guys wouldn't deflect and defer someone coming on to them by stating that "It's a Federal thing." and tripping over the nearest table. The scene was written and shot and acted in a way that was funny, sensitive, sexy and charming.

So maybe I'm supposed to just enjoy it. Maybe it's just fanservice. We'll see! The great thing about Supernatural is that they are still making episodes! :-) And that gives all of us something to talk about.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-07 22:02
Well you certainly started a conversation today Kristin :-) I hope you are enjoying the chat.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 22:37
Okay, can you tell how much I am? I hope so.

I really, really appreciate the comments. Even when I don't agree or they make me squirm.

I am encouraged that even when people don't agree, we seem to be able to be civil. I hope my love for Sam and Dean and SPN is paramount to all of this. :-)

I probably shoulda just posted a long ep reaction on my LJ and left it at that, huh? LOL
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-02-07 23:45
It's not like I completely disagree with you. Like you said it was a excellent fan service. It was just the Dean coming out part imo is ooc from what they have feed till now.
Everyone is entitled to enjoy their own sqee moment.
I am glad U enjoy that scene. I enjoyed that scene too just not in your way.
still speculate all you can here.....U never know what may come true in supernatural. ;-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-07 16:56
My opinions on this is, if the show had introduce Dean as a character who was more "flexible" in his preference from the beginning I would have zero problems with it. But I don't see Dean as a character that would bother to hide it or be embarrassed by it if it were true. My perception of the character is that he'd be more like Jack Harkness on Dr Who if he were bi. Happily perusing any and every attractive person, male or female, who comes across his bath. I don't see him hiding and angsting over it. He has bigger fish to fry, so I don't see him worrying himself over being bi. But if that hasn't been introduce into the character 8 seasons in than the only thing that makes sense is that he is ashamed and is hiding it. Which is not how I see his character. That is issue #1. And my biggest issues with the Destiel shippers and whatever they are calling Benny and Dean.

Now the Wincest (shudders) is a whole icky thing of its own. I believe Sam and Dean are soulmates. That they love each other more than anyone else on earth, but they are brothers and Dean had a hand in raising Sam and that is just ew. Now if they were just best friends who grew up together and were bi or gay. I'd be a total shipper of them-who wouldn't. Though even with that, I'm not sure why we try to put sex into every relationship that is intense. Which is my second issue. Just because a relationship deep and intense, does not mean its by default has to be sexual, the same with chemistry. To say that it does undermines or makes questionable all non-sexual relationships. IE mother/child.

My last issue is that because they would have the previous straight character coming out so late in life, it would have to be dealt with as a real issue rather than as simply a by- the- way component of a character, like Charlie's was. It would be a unnecessary distraction and pull away from the other storylines.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-07 21:59
Quote:

Now the Wincest (shudders) is a whole icky thing of its own. I believe Sam and Dean are soulmates. That they love each other more than anyone else on earth, but they are brothers and Dean had a hand in raising Sam and that is just ew. Now if they were just best friends who grew up together and were bi or gay. I'd be a total shipper of them-who wouldn't. Though even with that, I'm not sure why we try to put sex into every relationship that is intense. Which is my second issue. Just because a relationship deep and intense, does not mean its by default has to be sexual, the same with chemistry. To say that it does undermines or makes questionable all non-sexual relationships. IE mother/child.
I totally agree with this Kelly - you took the words out of my mouth. I consider the soulmates concept so much more fascinating than if it were just a relationship - which we have seen a million times on TV shows (well ok not in this EXACT context I suppose - though I believe Game of Thrones comes close?)
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 22:22
Hi Kelly - the only thing I'll say about whether Dean could suddenly be "bi" is that, well, Men of Letters.

Eight seasons in, and now Sam and Dean are Legacies. You have to know this wasn't in the cards in Season 1, 2 or frankly 7. It was a *great* idea. But a recent one.

So if you can buy that they are from a line of hunters but after 160 episodes and lots of canon to contradict the idea (somewhat) "Men of Letters", then I can buy that Dean may be having a sexual identity crisis (although I think crisis would be overstating it; I don't think he'd be bothered that much given his willingness to flirt with anyone and everyone).

And I gotta stick up for Wincest slashers. Be it Wincest, Destiel, Denny (I think? not sure), Samstiel, whatever, we have our opinions, and I'd point to other episodes and note we have our CANON (soulmates, "what's a slash fan" etc.). Can we agree that I won't judge you and you'll try not to judge us? I can understand how our point of view isn't mainstream or popular, but is it fair to call it icky? It's a point of view. Reject or accept it. I'll defend it all day. It's frankly why I wasn't sure if this was the appropriate venue for this conversation, even though I will assert that what I saw in the episode isn't about Destiel or Wincest. But I gotta defend it.

So, not just to change the subject: I think your question about why we sexualize everything is interesting - why do you think the writers do it for us? Just to bait the fans? Appeal to the shippers/slashe rs? Laugh at us (I reject that, by the way, I think TBPT at SPN respect even the fringe-iest of the fringe of this fandom)? If not, why write "Cas, get out of my ass!" You clearly know Torchwood and Doctor Who. And I do see *some* analogies to Jack Harkness in Dean (except for the crippling Dean Winchester self-loathing; Jack is nothing if not self-aggrandizi ng in a way that Dean Winchester will never be, bless).

Do you have a theory for why we got the straight Jew hitting on (tailing?) Dean and Dean being flummoxed by it? Was it just for fun? Was it anything more? What do you think about the fact that in a 42 minute show with TONS of mytharc and backstory they spent moments of four separate scenes talking about it? Was it just for fun?

Because, okay it was fun and funny. :-)
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-07 23:33
Kristin, it's an interesting conversation you have started and I enjoy debating just about any issue just for the fun of it. And I feel I'm fairly open-minded and live and let live on most issues. But yeah, still going with EWWWWW on the Wincest. Their brothers and since Dean always took care of Sam when he was little there is actually a REALLY disturbing balance of power issue. So yeah not feeling in anyway shape or form bad about that one.

I'm mean I get it, Jared and Jensen are completely sexy and hot and have amazing chemistry. And if they ever do another show where they are love interests (though I doubt it because I think they see each other as close to brothers) I would not only watch, I would pre-reserve to buy -download whatever. But not on SPN- because they are brothers and I don't understand why any other argument has to be made. So feel free to call me judgmental on that one. I except it willingly.

Now Dean being bi is not a moral issue in anyway for me at all but a storyline and characterizatio n one. Of course, Dean is nothing really like Jack Harkness (Adore Dr Who, only seen 1 Torchwood where the Aliens take over the kids-WAY to dark for me), but in this one aspect I don't think he and Dean would be that dissimilar. Both hit on anyone remotely attractive to them (at least Jack did in Dr Who), but we've only ever seen Dean hit on women. Which leads me to believe he is straight- that or he is hiding that part of his personality. Which as I mentioned I don't think he would bother to do.

But if he did feel the need to hide this than that would have to be disruptive to the show, because they would have to take time to explore that or it would not feel earned and therefore feel OoC and very much like a publicity stunt, where they randomly decided to make a character bi. I've seen them do this on shows before and the end result has never been good, at least IMO. Obviously opinions vary, some people like the Amelia storyline.

The way I see all the other stuff that you've listed is the writers messing with the fans, especially the shipper fans. These writers LOVE to mess with us. I think they think all the shipping stuff is hilarious (esp Wincest) and so poke us with it every once in a while. And yes, IMO, they will keep doing it as many times as they think they can get a laugh or can make fangirls squeal and then chuckle to themselves. Majority of the writers are men and to them that stuff never really gets old. Look at the dick jokes last year. I don't think it is done in any mean spirited way, I just think it really, really amuses them. I can almost see them giggling when they write it. And I have to admit I'd probably do the same thing, cause it makes me laugh too.

And in their defense, if one is needed, it is poking at all different kinds of things. The "Blow me, Cas" and such, definitely feels like what I've described above. But when Charlie asked if Dean broke up with someone, I took that as more teasing of the storyline, because yeah Ha Ha his thing with Benny was paralleling Sam and Amelia. I never took that for anything more serious than that.

So that is my two-cents worth.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-09 11:06
Can I just say I HATE when a character is suddenly gay or bisexual on a show? As you mentioned, it always feels like it's done for shock value or b/c the writers don't have anything else to do w/the character. I hated it w/Willow on BTVS. Didn't care for it on Degrassi. I guess it never feels real or genuine to me.

And to be honest, I think a lot of the stuff the shippers see passes right over me. I don't know why. I guess it's b/c I don't see anything romantic about Sam/Dean, Dean/Castiel, Sam/Gabriel, or Dean/Benny. There's nothing romantic in their interactions, IMO.

I did wonder why Dean was so flustered by Aaron, but it was probably the really intense way he was looking at Dean! Hahaha! It's very possible that Dean doesn't get hit on that directly by men before. It reminded me of the time when Dean when to some S&M/BDSM club by accident, and some huge guy wanted to be his "master" or something. Hahaha! He was really flustered then too IIRC. If a woman was staring at me as intently as Aaron was at Dean, then I'd probably be a little flustered too.

I also agree w/you about Wincest. I just can't go there. Incest is not cute, interesting, or hot. And as you said, the age difference btw the brothers makes it even more awful, IMO. I also don't care for sexual fanfic involving any angel. I have problems w/the concept of angels having sex. . . . just no.
E
# E 2013-02-08 13:33
Hi Kelly - the only thing I'll say about whether Dean could suddenly be "bi" is that, well, Men of Letters.

Eight seasons in, and now Sam and Dean are Legacies. You have to know this wasn't in the cards in Season 1, 2 or frankly 7. It was a *great* idea. But a recent one.

I can see your point here with the MoL example, but there is a big problem with it; the MoL is a Supernatural development directly related to the overall premise of the show and relevant to both brothers in equal yet varied ways. Deans (nor Sam's for that matter) sexual orientation is relevant to the basic premise of the show. It's outside the scope of the genre, while MoL is not, it's logical for the most part and follows on from canon easily. IMHO this show will never go down the road of sexual orientation issues for any of its main characters because it is irrelevant to the basic premise of the show. This is a topic for shows like Glee or Modern Family where the characters sexual orientation is directly relevant to the shows events and the lives of its characters. Here it is not. I think nothing much more will come of this issue aside from these little nods and teases to the audience that's made from time to time.
kaj
# kaj 2013-02-09 09:24
Quote:
Hi Kelly - the only thing I'll say about whether Dean could suddenly be "bi" is that, well, Men of Letters.

Eight seasons in, and now Sam and Dean are Legacies. You have to know this wasn't in the cards in Season 1, 2 or frankly 7. It was a *great* idea. But a recent one.

So if you can buy that they are from a line of hunters but after 160 episodes and lots of canon to contradict the idea (somewhat) "Men of Letters", then I can buy that Dean may be having a sexual identity crisis (although I think crisis would be overstating it; I don't think he'd be bothered that much given his willingness to flirt with anyone and everyone).

And I gotta stick up for Wincest slashers. Be it Wincest, Destiel, Denny (I think? not sure), Samstiel, whatever, we have our opinions, and I'd point to other episodes and note we have our CANON (soulmates, "what's a slash fan" etc.). Can we agree that I won't judge you and you'll try not to judge us? I can understand how our point of view isn't mainstream or popular, but is it fair to call it icky? It's a point of view. Reject or accept it. I'll defend it all day. It's frankly why I wasn't sure if this was the appropriate venue for this conversation, even though I will assert that what I saw in the episode isn't about Destiel or Wincest. But I gotta defend it.

So, not just to change the subject: I think your question about why we sexualize everything is interesting - why do you think the writers do it for us? Just to bait the fans? Appeal to the shippers/slashers? Laugh at us (I reject that, by the way, I think TBPT at SPN respect even the fringe-iest of the fringe of this fandom)? If not, why write "Cas, get out of my ass!" You clearly know Torchwood and Doctor Who. And I do see *some* analogies to Jack Harkness in Dean (except for the crippling Dean Winchester self-loathing; Jack is nothing if not self-aggrandizing in a way that Dean Winchester will never be, bless).

Do you have a theory for why we got the straight Jew hitting on (tailing?) Dean and Dean being flummoxed by it? Was it just for fun? Was it anything more? What do you think about the fact that in a 42 minute show with TONS of mytharc and backstory they spent moments of four separate scenes talking about it? Was it just for fun?

Because, okay it was fun and funny. :-)
Kristin, not to worry. I agree with you and I can understand the slashers. Though I will not approve of incest in real live but oddly enough I can get/understand it with Wincest slashers. But that doesn't mean that I approve of Wincest to happen in the show. No.
What I mean is that I'm more interested in studying it than saying ewww.

Incest is basically about being in love with this particular person who's been with you all your life and who you feel devoted to. There are several real life people who have incest relationship. Sure, in the face of moral and religion it's considered wrong and according to biology (maybe) it's dangerous. But we can't just ditch them (according to me of course) like trash. There is always background behind that behavior.

Psychology is interesting. And I've learned not to be too judgmental in regards of sexuality. I'm more interested in the reason why they do what they do. Why they fall in love with their own blood relative. After all, you can't just wake up one day and decide that you're attracted to your sister and want to kiss her. It doesn't work like that. There's always a deeper and complicated things happened in someone's life for them to choose that life.

There's a real life story. A pair of twins (boy and girl) are separated from birth. Years later, they met, fell in love and married with kids. Only then they knew that they were actually twins. Imagine how crushed and heartbroken they were when people judge them harshly and looked at them disgustedly? Were they at fault?

Saying ewwww and badmouthing them is like disregarding their whole life and considering them not a person. Just a disgusting thing. A thing, not a human with thoughts, with emotional problems, baggage and conflicts.

I hope the writers don't just think it's funny to play with sexual orientation. I hope there's something to go with all of this innuendo and not just playing it to be funny. If it's too much and too often, it won't be funny anymore. It'll be cruel. Making fun of one's sexual orientation is cruel.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-09 10:33
Kaj, 'Kay I try to not be judgmental either. And I not trying to dehumanize anyone, but if someone is in love (with sexual connotations) with their sibling or other family members, then they need to seek professional help. Because there are probably other issues at play and it is not a healthy situation. And as dysfunctional as the boys relationship is at times, I'm pretty sure their better off than that.

And again, most people here will acknowledge that Dean had a hand in raising Sam, so beyond being a brother relationship their is almost a parent/child dynamic. Now they are both grown (overgrown) men, so it would be a parent to overgrown child but remnants from childhood still exist. So yes, I find the idea that Dean is some creeper who instead of protecting Sammy is checking him out really disturbing.

Now I read an article once that was talking about this and a commenter said that a lot of the Wincest fanfiction (I've never read Wincest and most of the time I feel bad about judging something without trying it but not in this case) were just really about how much they loved each other, that there was no sexual component involved at all-not even deep-seated longings.

But if that is the case that is not incest. That is simply 2 people who love each other beyond all reason and that I completely agree with. THAT is one of the main reason I watch the show. But I am actually offended that people reduce that to something sexual. So still not feeling even a little guilty about my stance.
kaj
# kaj 2013-02-09 11:22
Quote:
And again, most people here will acknowledge that Dean had a hand in raising Sam, so beyond being a brother relationship their is almost a parent/child dynamic. Now they are both grown (overgrown) men, so it would be a parent to overgrown child but remnants from childhood still exist. So yes, I find the idea that Dean is some creeper who instead of protecting Sammy is checking him out really disturbing.
No, no, no, Kelly please don't feel guilty. You have the right to feel disturbed by it. I have said that I too don't approve Wincest to be canon. It'll be too complicated to explain and a waste of time for the plotline. Sam and Dean's love with each other is higher than any sexual connotation. It's beautiful the way it is now. (Although not during the first 10 episodes of this season. The perfect example is the Stone No.1 scene. Best scene in the entire SPN history IMO). Why change it to something that will arouse problems and will result in controversy. I don't think the writer will be able to cut no matter how they write it.

I think I've mentioned in comments several months ago that Sam and Dean's love is the kind of love that moves heaven and hell, literally. It's beautiful and that's why I watch the show.

Saying that, I still don't have bad opinion on Wincest slashers. :D I don't know why. My stance is more like ... "Oh, yeah, I get it. Doesn't mean I approve it for canon but I get it." Probably that's just the curiosity in me talking. I just want to study everyone and everything. Hahaha....

And we agree that people who is in love with their blood relative is definitely having some issues. Because there must be something happen behind that attraction. Whether it's issues or baggage or problems. This is the part that interests me. I'm more interested in studying them than judging them, I guess. :lol:
It's just me. I always want to ask why on everything.
I agree with Cas. Watching/Studyi ng humanity never gets old.

My point with this is for the writers to not again implying things like that for the sake of humor. If they don't intend to do something about it then don't do it too much. We already have a fixed lesbian character on the show. Making fun of Dean just for the sake of humor will not be funny in the long run. It will be cruel.
The quote about Dead man's robe, Aaron hitting on Dean, I hope they don't do it again next time. It's funny now but it won't always be funny later.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-09 19:15
I love studying people too. And I sure most people who read these and write them are perfectly nice people who'd never think of having a relationship with a family member. Or would in anyway advocate it real life.

And there is something in human nature that makes things that are taboo seem appealing or sexy to a lot of people. Especially when the taboo comes in the form of two incredibly hot guys. They create fantasies on paper in order to play out something that would never occur to them in real life.

But there is almost a mainstream acceptance (well mainstream as far as the fandom at least) and even advocacy of this fantasy that I find unsettling, especially when it has sunk to the level lala2 mentioned below. Like I said I even read an article on it and even worse it is lumped under the broad heading of slash pairings. Which I think most gay people would find pretty insulting if they thought about it. Homosexuality is being lumped in with incest, like it is just one more social variant that straitlaced people need to get on board with. Which do I find unacceptable.
lala2
# lala2 2013-02-09 11:43
Kelly, I couldn't agree more w/you! If two siblings were raised together and then started having sex w/each other, I would think they both needed to speak to a psychologist or something. I'm sorry, but people should not be having sex w/their blood relatives. I'm not trying to be judgmental, but if a friend confessed to me her desires to sleep w/her brother or that she was actually sleeping w/him, I would definitely encourage her to seek therapy.

Now, when I'm trolling for fanfic, I've come across many summaries of Wincest, and most of the summaries I've seen involved sex in some way, shape, or form so I'm not sure what that commenter was talking about. Granted, I don't read Wincest fanfics, but if the summaries are anything to go by, there is sex in those stories . . .maybe not all of them but a lot of them. And as I mentioned above, the age difference btw Sam and Dean makes it even worse. 16-yr old Dean lusts after his 12-yr old little brother . . . . just no. I can't get w/that. I don't understand it at all, and I don't feel bad about that.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-09 18:21
Yeah I seen those with them as kids too. The fact that they have their own moniker for that type is too disturbing for words. Yuck. And yeah from a lot of the summaries they certainly don't seem platonic but I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, since I refuse to read them and find out.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-11 10:09
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Kelly - the only thing I'll say about whether Dean could suddenly be "bi" is that, well, Men of Letters.

Eight seasons in, and now Sam and Dean are Legacies. You have to know this wasn't in the cards in Season 1, 2 or frankly 7. It was a *great* idea. But a recent one.

So if you can buy that they are from a line of hunters but after 160 episodes and lots of canon to contradict the idea (somewhat) "Men of Letters", then I can buy that Dean may be having a sexual identity crisis (although I think crisis would be overstating it; I don't think he'd be bothered that much given his willingness to flirt with anyone and everyone).

And I gotta stick up for Wincest slashers. Be it Wincest, Destiel, Denny (I think? not sure), Samstiel, whatever, we have our opinions, and I'd point to other episodes and note we have our CANON (soulmates, "what's a slash fan" etc.). Can we agree that I won't judge you and you'll try not to judge us? I can understand how our point of view isn't mainstream or popular, but is it fair to call it icky? It's a point of view. Reject or accept it. I'll defend it all day. It's frankly why I wasn't sure if this was the appropriate venue for this conversation, even though I will assert that what I saw in the episode isn't about Destiel or Wincest. But I gotta defend it.

So, not just to change the subject: I think your question about why we sexualize everything is interesting - why do you think the writers do it for us? Just to bait the fans? Appeal to the shippers/slashers? Laugh at us (I reject that, by the way, I think TBPT at SPN respect even the fringe-iest of the fringe of this fandom)? If not, why write "Cas, get out of my ass!" You clearly know Torchwood and Doctor Who. And I do see *some* analogies to Jack Harkness in Dean (except for the crippling Dean Winchester self-loathing; Jack is nothing if not self-aggrandizing in a way that Dean Winchester will never be, bless).

Do you have a theory for why we got the straight Jew hitting on (tailing?) Dean and Dean being flummoxed by it? Was it just for fun? Was it anything more? What do you think about the fact that in a 42 minute show with TONS of mytharc and backstory they spent moments of four separate scenes talking about it? Was it just for fun?

Because, okay it was fun and funny. :-)
Kristin, not to worry. I agree with you and I can understand the slashers. Though I will not approve of incest in real live but oddly enough I can get/understand it with Wincest slashers. But that doesn't mean that I approve of Wincest to happen in the show. No.
What I mean is that I'm more interested in studying it than saying ewww.

Incest is basically about being in love with this particular person who's been with you all your life and who you feel devoted to. There are several real life people who have incest relationship. Sure, in the face of moral and religion it's considered wrong and according to biology (maybe) it's dangerous. But we can't just ditch them (according to me of course) like trash. There is always background behind that behavior.

Psychology is interesting. And I've learned not to be too judgmental in regards of sexuality. I'm more interested in the reason why they do what they do. Why they fall in love with their own blood relative. After all, you can't just wake up one day and decide that you're attracted to your sister and want to kiss her. It doesn't work like that. There's always a deeper and complicated things happened in someone's life for them to choose that life.

There's a real life story. A pair of twins (boy and girl) are separated from birth. Years later, they met, fell in love and married with kids. Only then they knew that they were actually twins. Imagine how crushed and heartbroken they were when people judge them harshly and looked at them disgustedly? Were they at fault?

Saying ewwww and badmouthing them is like disregarding their whole life and considering them not a person. Just a disgusting thing. A thing, not a human with thoughts, with emotional problems, baggage and conflicts.

I hope the writers don't just think it's funny to play with sexual orientation. I hope there's something to go with all of this innuendo and not just playing it to be funny. If it's too much and too often, it won't be funny anymore. It'll be cruel. Making fun of one's sexual orientation is cruel.
Kaj, I'd agree with you that I worry that the writers aren't skilled enough to include this type of sexual innuendo without it bleeding into making fun of sexual orientation. Although, one thing I've noticed is that Dean seems to be a bit less aggressive in his rejection of male advances or speculation these days. I used to get irritated with his some of his aggressive 'I don't swing that way", statements. I prefer a polite Dean when he's rejecting (politely made but unwanted) advances.

Kristin, as for TPTB making Dean officially Bi, as much as Dean's openness on this issue can be an element of my own head canon, I wouldn't be keen to see it happen in Canon because I'm not really all that much in favour of SPN going down the route of romantic storylines. I much prefer the MOTW and supernatural plots and have low tolerance for the brothers getting all soap-opera with romantic relationship plots. And as an avid reader of SPN fanfic, I'm going to agree with you that I support the writers writing whatever pairing they want to; if a particular pairing doesn't work for me I just won't read the fic :D But I will also say that some amazingly well-written, character analysing, cleverly plotted, emotionally satisfying, and goosebump-gener ating fanfic is created in the SPN fandom with slash pairings. And for those who don't read slash, there's loads of genfic and for those who don't read Wincest there's also loads of "Sam and Dean aren't related" fic. Fanfic is wide-ranging and there's something for everyone :D
Amy
# Amy 2013-02-07 11:45
I dont care if Dean is gay or not. I dont care if Dean and cas or Dean and Benny or secretly doing the horizonal limbo (must be why Dean is keeping Benny such a big secret cause nothing else makes sense)

What I do care is they are spending all this time on Deans charecotr and relationships and sexuality and yet they can't spend hardly any time building Sams' relationships.. ..not even a friendship. And how is it fair that if/when Dean comes out gay he will obvisouly decide to do the interspecies chacha with either Castiel or Benny and thus gets to have a serious romantic relationship with a recurring charector and yet SAM isn't allowed to have a relationship outside the MOL books and hunting.

its just unbalenced charectorwise.

And as far as Dean being afraid of Sam's reaction.....Sa m I'm sure wll look up from hsi book/research, say "I know." and go back to work. I just dont think Sam would care one way or another as long as Dean wasn't under supernatural influence and it made Dean happy.
st50
# st50 2013-02-07 11:53
Quote:

And as far as Dean being afraid of Sam's reaction.....Sam I'm sure wll look up from hsi book/research, say "I know." and go back to work. I just dont think Sam would care one way or another as long as Dean wasn't under supernatural influence and it made Dean happy.
Oh, that I agree with.
And honestly. Who cares. So long as they don't make a big deal out of it, it doesn't really change anything.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-07 12:03
This expresses my feelings exactly. I don't care what either boy's sexual orientation is. I'm watching a show about guys who hunt monsters, not the love life of those hunters. I would be bothered if Dean's romantic life became a subject to be explored while Sam's entire POV this season has been downplayed. I also don't think Sam would care if Dean were gay or bi and if Dean is, I suspect Sam does know or suspect but is willing to go with however much Dean wants to tell him.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-08 09:38
Quote:
This expresses my feelings exactly. I don't care what either boy's sexual orientation is. I'm watching a show about guys who hunt monsters, not the love life of those hunters. I would be bothered if Dean's romantic life became a subject to be explored while Sam's entire POV this season has been downplayed. I also don't think Sam would care if Dean were gay or bi and if Dean is, I suspect Sam does know or suspect but is willing to go with however much Dean wants to tell him.
Yes, this is a show about the supernatural and not a soap opera. Not interested in romance. Never liked Dean/Lisa or Sam/Amelia. Only interested in the brothers being brothers. Wincest for me is just EWWWW.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 12:42
Quote:


And as far as Dean being afraid of Sam's reaction.....Sam I'm sure wll look up from hsi book/research, say "I know." and go back to work. I just dont think Sam would care one way or another as long as Dean wasn't under supernatural influence and it made Dean happy.
I love this - it's exactly how Sam would react. Of course Sam would know before Dean. It's so *them*.
kaj
# kaj 2013-02-09 09:38
Quote:
I dont care if Dean is gay or not. I dont care if Dean and cas or Dean and Benny or secretly doing the horizonal limbo (must be why Dean is keeping Benny such a big secret cause nothing else makes sense)

What I do care is they are spending all this time on Deans charecotr and relationships and sexuality and yet they can't spend hardly any time building Sams' relationships....not even a friendship. And how is it fair that if/when Dean comes out gay he will obvisouly decide to do the interspecies chacha with either Castiel or Benny and thus gets to have a serious romantic relationship with a recurring charector and yet SAM isn't allowed to have a relationship outside the MOL books and hunting.

its just unbalenced charectorwise.

And as far as Dean being afraid of Sam's reaction.....Sam I'm sure wll look up from hsi book/research, say "I know." and go back to work. I just dont think Sam would care one way or another as long as Dean wasn't under supernatural influence and it made Dean happy.
Agree with you Amy. It shouldn't be a problem whether Dean is gay or not. It doesn't bother me and I can accept it as canon if that does happen. As long as Dean and Sam still have their strong brotherhood I'm happy. I just hope that the writers flesh out both brothers equally.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-07 12:05
I loved this episode so much.
Loved the batcave, especially Sam's excitement with being able to geek out. And Dean playing with the scimitar in a dead man's bathrobe.

Loved Aaron, especially him smoking the Golem papers and especially, especially the whole dramatic lead up to him telling this, the music was so perfect. Also loved how quickly he thought of telling Dean he thought they had a moment -totally threw Dean off his game.

Loved the cranky Golem and that he wasn't this mindless "creature" but had values and a purpose.

Sam in sweater vest -yummy. He needs to wear more of these.

SAM WARMING HIMSELF OVER THE BODY!-why is that just so funny.

And so many other things -Great episode!
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 12:08
I guess I'm not thinking of this as a good or bad thing for Dean, but more of what I think they (SPN) are trying to show us about him. And you raise really good points about where "Dean is gay/bi" takes us as a story with Sam (who I don't think would care, as you note, except for getting some epic sidelong glances and "Dean!"s out if Dean starts hitting on guys like he does on girls). I haven't even thought about it, frankly, so I appreciate your points. :-)

Basically, I can get on board with all sorts of theories around Dean's sexuality. But the thing that made me really focus on this is that the show seems to be focusing on this. It's not "two queens or a king" or "Sam/Dean together?" or "Cas, get out of my ass!". It's systematic, it's over the course of the season, it's a season about perception.

And I guess, in part, it is about Dean being *happy*. I feel like the first 10 episodes or so of this season was about the boys not being happy. I don't like most of the choices the writers made during that time (frankly, during a lot of Season 7 and early 8) for them. But since Dean went to see Sam in the hotel room in Texas, it feels like he's being honest, or more himself, or something, that makes me question why the show continues with this not-so-subtle nod to Dean "losing" Benny and having a gay moment or not being at all interested or turned on by the hot varsity girls.

Speaking of those girls, I forgot to mention the clear distinction between them and Aaron. WOW, did Jensen sell that or what? The chemistry we're used to seeing between Dean and hot co-eds? Yeah, not seeing it. At all. Sgriccia/Edlund /Ackles - could it be a coincidence? Because Dean could not have been less interested in those two, and they could not have been more Dean's type. The scene was vintage Dean in the bar without Sammy and two hot chicks and you just know he's getting a number and maybe a threesome. But it's NOT THERE.

And the overcompensatin g "hot girls" comment is just another thing on the ledger of "this can't all be a coincidence or for humor". IMHO).

Not that I'm beating my horse to death or anything. ;-) But you can see why I'm a little obsessed.
kaj
# kaj 2013-02-09 09:34
Quote:
Speaking of those girls, I forgot to mention the clear distinction between them and Aaron. WOW, did Jensen sell that or what? The chemistry we're used to seeing between Dean and hot co-eds? Yeah, not seeing it. At all. Sgriccia/Edlund/Ackles - could it be a coincidence? Because Dean could not have been less interested in those two, and they could not have been more Dean's type. The scene was vintage Dean in the bar without Sammy and two hot chicks and you just know he's getting a number and maybe a threesome. But it's NOT THERE.

And the overcompensating "hot girls" comment is just another thing on the ledger of "this can't all be a coincidence or for humor". IMHO).
Makes you think that there's more than meet the eyes with that scene, eh?


If they don't intend to expand it then don't do it too often.
They have to stop hinting on 'gay Dean' if they don't intend to make something out of it. I hope the writers stop playing with that because too much of that kinda joke, it won't be funny anymore. It'll be cruel.
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 12:11
I agree that there are way too many things happening right now that need to be explained or explored, not the least of which is Sam's POV. We do not need them to open up another can of worms until some of the others are dealt with.
lely
# lely 2013-02-07 12:48
Me too, me too. I really loved this episode.

Ardeospina: a tall order??? *dies laughing* so very very punny. kudos.

The gay moment with Aaron was pretty cute, thanks kristin for sharing your thoughts on that. very interesting. I hadn't really noticed the trend, but now I can see it, for sure.

Anybody else feel they were making an awfully big deal about that nazi necromancer ring? I actually said out loud, "ok, Show, we get it, the ring is Important." But then I was surprised there was no pay off by the end of the ep. So maybe I was just imagining it?

P.S. I'll admit I kinda had to pick my jaw up off the floor when Sam told Dean to take off the dead guy robe. Not, put on some clothes...just. ..take off the robe. I was like "oh, Edlund, now you're just trolling" heh. ok, now I feel dirty. *hides face*
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 12:57
Quote:
P.S. I'll admit I kinda had to pick my jaw up off the floor when Sam told Dean to take off the dead guy robe. Not, put on some clothes...just...take off the robe. I was like "oh, Edlund, now you're just trolling" heh. ok, now I feel dirty. *hides face*


I'm so glad you said that because I thought the same thing.

"That's the sound of 1000 fanfics hitting Livejournal..."
Hades
# Hades 2013-02-07 13:29
Edlund is brilliant at teasing and he knows who the easy targets are in the fandom. All of his episodes in the past few years have had moments of pandering to certain groups of fans and while it was kind of funny at first because he was so blatantly taking the piss out of those fans, its become kind off eye roll worthy now.
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-02-07 13:43
P.S. I'll admit I kinda had to pick my jaw up off the floor when Sam told Dean to take off the dead guy robe. Not, put on some clothes...just. ..take off the robe. I was like "oh, Edlund, now you're just trolling" heh. ok, now I feel dirty. *hides face*

Ok Ben Edlund is a master of dirty comments. pun intended.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2013-02-07 15:16
What can I say, I love a good (or a bad) pun.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 13:04
One thing I loved on rewatching is grad assistant Sam'sshoes.

His goddamn shoes. Camel. Brown. Suede. Ankle boots.

It's details like this that make Supernatural the show it is. Someone decided that Sam needed to wear camel suede half boots. AND HE DID. Sigh.

Alice, I know you will appreciate how much I love that they weren't both FBI agents in this one - so refreshing, so easy and so needed. Why don't they do stuff like this more often? The wardrobe people are clearly up for it. :-)

Suede. Ankle. Boots. Son of a bitch, Sammy.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-02-07 14:12
Quote:
Suede. Ankle. Boots. Son of a bitch, Sammy.
:lol: I'll have to check for that next time! I also loved that they weren't both FBI agents this time. Only Dean, and he got hit on by a dude! :lol: Even though it was just a front, it was pretty damn funny.
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-07 13:48
I have watched the ep twice and just have a few more points to add after viewing some of the responses:

1. Who is the Men of Letters' housekeeper all these years, because, man, that bunker sure is clean and polished!

2. Dean is NOT gay. He is a little homophobic but always happy to think he's attractive to someone. That's the way Jensen played it, so that's the way it is. My opinion, of course.

3. Sam WILL NOT be relegated to research in the stunning new (old) library while Dean and /or Cas hunt. It is just a little reprieve in his 'happy place'. Let him be in his happy place for an ep or 2 and do NOT panic. It won't hurt anything to let him get his geek on and let Dean gush over the water pressure and Sam's happiness. Remember, there are gates of Hell to close. I doubt Dean's going to do that while Sam reads to him over the phone.

4. I NEED a golum.
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2013-02-07 13:52
Oh, yes, and...
5. The wardrobe...wond erful. If they can dress a golum and put Sam in a sweater and patch-sleeve jacket, Dean and Sam in leather pants and chainmail, anything can happen. Damn, they look good in anything.
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-02-07 13:59
amen to that thought.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-02-07 14:18
Fanotheboyz:
Quote:
1. Who is the Men of Letters' housekeeper all these years, because, man, that bunker sure is clean and polished!
I don't know, but whoever it was, I want that person...or entity perhaps? Maybe it's a ghost housecleaner from the 50s, but this time Sam & Dean decide not to salt & burn her bones! :lol: Sorry if I'm using the feminine, but it the 50s, chances are it probably was. :-?
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-02-07 14:19
Damn, sorry, I meant housekeeper, duh!
Bevie
# Bevie 2013-02-07 15:27
Agree with you fanotheboyz, especially your numbers 2 and 3.

Dean is NOT gay. IMO, of course. He does like to be admired and practically preens when that occurs, mostly to annoy Sam I really think. But he is all man behind that gorgeous face! :oops:

Also, Sam sitting alone doing research while Dean is out risking his life hunting will never never be, until they are both in their dotage, then they'll both be researching. I'm not worried about that at all. :-*

Wouldn't mind a golem of my own, if I could turn him on and off, as I could use some strong help around here! :D

Love Ben Edlund and his awesome magical mind! ;-)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-07 15:27
Quote:
1. Who is the Men of Letters' housekeeper all these years, because, man, that bunker sure is clean and polished!
I'm sure the Men of Letters have a spell somewhere to repel dust.

#fanwank :P
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-02-07 17:03
Funny, but Edlund actually mentioned that it was hermetically sealed.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-07 19:05
Hermetically sealed...means it's airtight - but if it's airtight (and forgive me if this is a terribly stupid question - I'm a wordsmith not an engineer) how could Sam and Dean breathe in there? ???
Leah
# Leah 2013-02-07 19:16
I would imagine the seal would be broken upon their entry.
Right? Or did he mean hermetically sealed all the time?
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 22:25
Okay, so this made me laugh - it's just "if there's lock, there must also be a key..."

I'm sorry, but while I love MoL and the place it takes the show to, it's just a little too much Retcon and handwaving.

They even called it "The Hub." God I miss Torchwood.
sucharita
# sucharita 2013-02-07 14:24
A harry potter creature, not bad. Boys will be free of chores.
Hermione might come after them.
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2013-02-07 14:51
OMG. I finally got to watch the whole episode. Worked last night. Don't get CW on Direct TV so can't record. Tried several pirate sites when I got home with no luck. CW this morning kept quitting on me. Thought I might have a breakdown! ha. The anticipation was soooo high for me by the time I finally got to watch it I was laughing and shouting out loud at my computer. And of course tearful at the end. Love, love, love these boys. Too emotional to give my views of particular things. Want to watch again. Most points have already been brought up.

One thing. Someone questioned them meeting in the parking lot. I thought it was a beautiful team effort to make the plan and used code words. Like the old days. I found it a perfect example of them being back in sync!

1 more quick comment. Maybe all that angst in first part of the season was to build it all back up to them finding each other again and being in a 'good' place finally. Well, better anyway. Makes us appreciate it all that much more! I am in Winchester heaven!
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-07 15:23
I have a question - maybe someone can do a bit of research/hypoth esizing for me.

What was in that dart that Sam got hit with? Poison? What was it supposed to do him? All I saw was that spreading (horrible, horrible) bruise. And how did Dean know what was in it or how to fix it?

Any suggestions?
icef
# icef 2013-02-07 16:02
Me gusto el cap. amo los momentos fraternos, pues ame el cap. anterior que fue muy grandioso :lol:, Dean como gay fue incomodo para mi y para el también. Sam con su investigación y encantado con su nueva casa, que siga así los hermanos Winchester nunca deben estar separados mas bien siempre junto.......... ..
icef
# icef 2013-02-07 16:13
I like me the cap. love the fraternal moments, since there loves the previous cap. who was very grand:lol:, Dean like gay was inconvinient for my and for also. Sam with his investigation and delighted with his new house, which is still like that the brothers Winchester must never be separated rather always near ............
icef
# icef 2013-02-07 16:16
am charmed with me the end.....
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-02-07 16:25
I only partially liked this episode, too, and others have mentioned the good parts, like Aaron, the Golem, and the very brief Hal Linden.

I felt the script was very linear and not what I have come to expect from Edlund. I think it set up things for the future and provided nothing in characterizatio n, nothing on Sam and Dean's relationship (although it appears to be just fine after the romp at the Ren Fair).

I found Sam and Dean to be nothing more than cardboard action figures in the episode, especially in their interactions with the support characters. Sam was used for a lot of exposition and Dean was the comic relief.

And, finally, it became pretty obvious to me after this episode that Sam's story is "the reluctant hero." but I don't yet know what Dean's is. Sam has found his reason for hunting in the bunker of knowledge and in his legacy, not in the fact that Dean is alive and back from Purgatory or that hunting is a worthy, heroic job.

Even all of this, though, isn't why I wasn't thrilled with the episode. What disappointed me was that I felt a tremendous change in the 'tone' of the show with this introduction of the bunker. I liked the bunker, and I was thrilled with the storylines it offered, but after watching the episode, I felt the total loss of two blue-collared guys living on the edge of society, hunting evil. Cut crystal glasses with top-shelf liquor, bathrobes and slippers, and them being hermetically sealed away in the Yale-like digs with that awful 50s music made me mourn for the show that used to be.

Granted, it will be a relief if these two guys in their 30s get over their 'our sucky lives' feelings after all these years, so I guess if living in the lap of luxury is what it takes to do that, I'll get used to it....maybe.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-02-07 17:24
Well, they still have no money (unless they steal it!); so I don't think we have to worry about luxury to much. They just have a place to come back to between jobs now. They used to have Bobby's. Then the cabin. Now they have this place. Personally, I'm happy for them. Being 34 before you get to sleep in a room of your own? I'm surprised Dean managed to have so much sex!!
E
# E 2013-02-08 22:47
Quote:
Even all of this, though, isn't why I wasn't thrilled with the episode. What disappointed me was that I felt a tremendous change in the 'tone' of the show with this introduction of the bunker. I liked the bunker, and I was thrilled with the storylines it offered, but after watching the episode, I felt the total loss of two blue-collared guys living on the edge of society, hunting evil. Cut crystal glasses with top-shelf liquor, bathrobes and slippers, and them being hermetically sealed away in the Yale-like digs with that awful 50s music made me mourn for the show that used to be.
For me, "the show that used to be" has been gone since season 3. It was fine to have two very young men criss-crossing the country, working the family business and living out of their car... but this hasn't been the case for a long time now. It's not practical (for me, anyway) to have two 30 somethings living like teenaged boys, eating roadside diner crap, and hitting on college coeds (Dean's 34! getting close to 'Ick' factor when it comes to hitting on 19 year olds!) I think those things had to change. Sleeping in the car when you are 22 is not the same as when you are 32. The boys need to settle down to a certain extent to make their situation believable. I agree that nothing can replace the golden glow of those first three years of the series, but I think that this is a good and necessary change to keep the brother's realistic, well as realistic as two monster hunting guys living in an abandoned bunker can be anyway. Besides which, they deserve a nice bed, a comfy robe, decent water pressure, and a drop of quality whisky now and then. It isn't really all that much to ask for in the grand scheme of things and Lord knows, they deserve it.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-08 23:10
Quote:
For me, "the show that used to be" has been gone since season 3. It was fine to have two very young men criss-crossing the country, working the family business and living out of their car... but this hasn't been the case for a long time now. It's not practical (for me, anyway) to have two 30 somethings living like teenaged boys...I agree that nothing can replace the golden glow of those first three years of the series, but I think that this is a good and necessary change to keep the brother's realistic, ...Besides which, they deserve a nice bed, a comfy robe, decent water pressure, and a drop of quality whisky now and then. It isn't really all that much to ask for in the grand scheme of things and Lord knows, they deserve it.
Yes, yes, yes! Couldn't agree more. The show has evolved since its early years - no doubt this is partly how it's managed to survive for so long. The guys are older, have been through a ton, and things just change. We each have three choices: we can let go and move on, we can stay and be bitter, or we can look back on the good 'ole days with nostalgia, while appreciating the ways in which the show has improvised, adapted, and overcome creatively to get where it is today. Thanks, E.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-09 01:09
E, Bamboo & Ginger
I agree with this, the show has managed to stay relevant to all their experiences. I guess what Ginger is feeling is a nostalgia for those 2 kids back when we first got to know them. There was an energy, innocence & simplicity about them and in what they hunted. But if they must grow up then the batcave is nooot half bad a place for it to happen. I must say though by heart constricted a bit when Dean put the beers back.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-02-09 15:03
I do think that Sam and Dean need and deserve a place of their own. I'm slightly unbalanced by them getting this grand legacy bunker. Several years ago I read an essay about how Supernatural was one of the few show in today's TV world that had main characters who were working class and not middle class characters. I think that did make the show and Sam and Dean special and suddenly getting upper class accommodations is a change to the feel of the show. Since we only have one episode it is impossible to judge how this will affect the feel of the show. Two guys, scraping by hustling pool, and barely making ends meet is different from two guys going around the country and then coming home to a reasonably lavish lifestyle. It's not that Sam and Dean don't deserve it. It's just a change that may or may not affect how they interact with the world. I'll have to see how the whole thing gets handled.
eilf
# eilf 2013-02-09 15:30
I know what you mean Percy, and the fact that the guy can communicate with just about everyone while investigating monsters is one of the strong spots of the show. I know they are from a working class background but they always seemed somewhat outside of class structures to me.

But really it is hard to see how this place could affect them as people any more than if they got any other form of base. It isn't like it changes who they interact with, they don't have servants or rich neighbours.

Also Sam was heading towards a middle class lifestyle in college. His interactions with Dean in the djinn episode was more of a lifestyle difference than is likely to happen here.

I don't know enough about class structures to make any very useful statements about them, but it seems to me that American class structures are determined by wealth and education in that order and so are somewhat different to European class structures which are often more about ancient history... but that is just guessing on my part.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-11 11:23
Quote:
Quote:
For me, "the show that used to be" has been gone since season 3. It was fine to have two very young men criss-crossing the country, working the family business and living out of their car... but this hasn't been the case for a long time now. It's not practical (for me, anyway) to have two 30 somethings living like teenaged boys...I agree that nothing can replace the golden glow of those first three years of the series, but I think that this is a good and necessary change to keep the brother's realistic, ...Besides which, they deserve a nice bed, a comfy robe, decent water pressure, and a drop of quality whisky now and then. It isn't really all that much to ask for in the grand scheme of things and Lord knows, they deserve it.
Yes, yes, yes! Couldn't agree more. The show has evolved since its early years - no doubt this is partly how it's managed to survive for so long. The guys are older, have been through a ton, and things just change. We each have three choices: we can let go and move on, we can stay and be bitter, or we can look back on the good 'ole days with nostalgia, while appreciating the ways in which the show has improvised, adapted, and overcome creatively to get where it is today. Thanks, E.
E and Bamboo, thanks for giving me food for thought with your takes on the new direction of Sam and Dean's lives.

I, too, see S1-3 as the golden years and miss the vibe the show had in those days. I hadn't considered the idea of Sam and Dean 'needing' a base at all really. I hadn't thought of Bobby's as their base in any great sense and, now that Bobby's has burnt down etc, it would make sense that the brothers would miss having somewhere to return to during their travels.

I don't mind the show evolving to allow it to stay creative and to allow the characters to develop, however, given the OOC portrayal of Sam in the first half of this season in combination with the writers' tendency to try for huge-epic storylines rather than for "saving people, hunting things" storylines, I do worry that things might stray even farther from the original premise of the show than they have already. I'm a worry wart :o
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2013-02-08 23:15
Very well said E. Very well said.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. He has moved on from teeny boppers or college co-eds. This just does seem more believeable for guys in their 30's. I love the place.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-02-07 20:16
I feel very innocent, stupid and gullible right now.
The way I took the scene in the restaurant was hetero Aaron was just using the gay comment to befuddle and get rid of hetero Dean. Dean being Dean WAS charmingly befuddled.

Am I the only one who thought Aaron was just being very good at foiling the person he was following? (And no, I'm not homophobic.)
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 22:28
Quote:
I feel very innocent, stupid and gullible right now.
The way I took the scene in the restaurant was hetero Aaron was just using the gay comment to befuddle and get rid of hetero Dean. Dean being Dean WAS charmingly befuddled.

Am I the only one who thought Aaron was just being very good at foiling the person he was following? (And no, I'm not homophobic.)
NOPE. I think you're probably right.

I'm the one who's reading too much into this. But isn't that the fun of SPN and fandom? :-)

I think SPN is great at just laying things out as fact that we all puzzle over for months/years. So yeah, you're probably right. I should take it all at face value when Aaron says he was just being smooth, 'cause smooth is all he's got.

I just wonder why Charlie asked Dean if he broke up with someone? (yeah, I know, I can't let it go, LOL)
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-02-08 17:47
*I just wonder why Charlie asked Dean if he broke up with someone?*
Dean did break up with someone - he lost his friend Benny. I have missed lost girlfriends for years, and I wasn't in love with them, they were just good friends. But just because I can't see Dean being tri-species or bi-sexual doesn't mean that others can't enjoy thinking of him that way! You go!

Sorry about the quote - I couldn't figure out how to do the quote right.
kristin
# kristin 2013-02-07 22:29
And Dean *was* charmingly befuddled. Sigh. So charming. And the hand porn with the FBI badge. That was worth the price of admission...
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-02-11 11:27
Quote:
I feel very innocent, stupid and gullible right now.
The way I took the scene in the restaurant was hetero Aaron was just using the gay comment to befuddle and get rid of hetero Dean. Dean being Dean WAS charmingly befuddled.

Am I the only one who thought Aaron was just being very good at foiling the person he was following? (And no, I'm not homophobic.)
Nope, your take on Aaron's behaviour matches what I think the official line is: Aaron was using it to throw Dean off the scent of being followed :)

However, Dean's reaction to Aaron's pretend chatting-up is the thing that some folks are finding interesting to analyse. Dean's behaviour in that scene is not quite the usual way he has behaved in those scenes before. Having said that, Aaron's chatting-up of Dean is not exactly a situation we've seen Dean in before, most of the 'gay' advances (or assumptions characters have made about Dean's sexuality) that we've seen Dean reject have been shorter and in different contexts than the one we saw in this episode.
JoRuth
# JoRuth 2013-02-07 22:08
Arriving rather late with my thoughts about Dean being bisexual. Would not surprise me in the least. It also does not need to be soap opera stuff but rather good and celebratory character development. Or personal integration, from the story point of view. (And I certainly think Sam would agree :) I suspect Dean is someone who is going to be completely comfortable in his own skin over the course of this wonderful series, and whatever label we give him will be fine.
Amy
# Amy 2013-02-08 06:52
It seems people are making a big deal over Dean not fawning over the two college co eds. Weather he is bi or not...dont matter to my. But it seems the whoole thing was more about substance over fluff.

I'm sorry but the girls were vacuous fluff and Dean has moved passed the point in his life where he would be happy with fluffy, vacuous college ,... girls or boys.

Is it a sign of Dean maturing that he isn't hitting on college aged girls or is it a sign of bi that he got into the flirt witrh arran (or lack of flirting?) who is older and mature.

or is it both?

Frankly after the whole dumb trenchcoat thing with Cas for me Dean may as well come out bi-species
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-02-08 09:45
Quote:
Frankly after the whole dumb trenchcoat thing with Cas for me Dean may as well come out bi-species
LOL! Love it!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-02-09 01:13
Oh my word, have I missed something. What dumb trenchcoat with Cas thing? Did they have a hookup moment or what? coz I defo missed.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-09 01:24
Watch (again, if you haven't already) S7's "Born - Again Identity" - the infamous "trenchcoat scene" is toward the end of the episode. :P
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-02-08 23:12
Quote:
Frankly after the whole dumb trenchcoat thing with Cas for me Dean may as well come out bi-species
Oh god...I like to pretend that never happened. :/