Warning!!!!  If you haven't seen "Torn and Frayed" yet, read no further!  There will be spoilers and discussion about the episode.  You've been warned!



Welcome back from the long hiatus!  It's nice to have the show back, even if I was slightly underwhelmed by tonight's outing.  I was really hoping for more progress on the angel front, and I'm not 100% sure why the brothers are back together.  Let's get into these and other issues in more depth, shall we?
 
Back In The Saddle Again
So, the boys are back together.  That's good.  I guess.  Seriously, I'm not feeling this reunion.  It doesn't feel like they really want to get together again, and I'm not sure it's SUPPOSED to feel like that.  Because they're only teaming up again because they feel like they have to, because the world is getting crazy again, and they have to stop all the bad crap from happening.  They're not together because they want to be.  Not really.  So now I'm hoping that in the second half of the season, they are going to work out their issues in a meaningful way.  They're going to realize why they want to work together again, and it's going to involve character development, and they're going to experience growth, and it's going to be awesome!  And I'm sure it will be bumpy along the way, but they'll get there again.  They need to learn how to be a team again after the year they each had apart.
 
Farewell, Amelia
I never really fully warmed up to Amelia, I have to admit.  I think she had potential as a character, and she had some moments, but she just didn't click with me.  So I am really kind of glad this storyline didn't drag on for the rest of the season.  Really very glad.  That said, I did feel a bit sad for her when the hotel room was empty.  I mean, that hurts, no matter who you are.

But, her and Sam sleeping together raises an interesting moral quandary: Amelia's still married to Don, so technically they're adulterers now?  Sam never struck me as the type!  Now, technically, Don had been alive the whole time, but neither of them knew that until he turned up again.  But they both knew he was alive this time.  But Don also said that it was Amelia's choice to make, so did that give them free rein?
 
The Angel Issue
Dang, what is up with the CIAngels, huh?  Why did Samandriel have to die?  Couldn't Naomi have asked Cass to bring him back to heaven alive and question him herself?  Poor Samandriel!  And poor Castiel!  He's trying so damn hard to do his penance, but he's being controlled by heaven again.  Ugh!  And not only controlled, but reprogrammed.  I mean, he just wanted to save one angel, and Naomi made him kill the angel he saved.  When Cass finds out, he's going to be ruined about it.  He was already suicidal.  I really hope Sam and especially Dean are there for him when that happens, and that they fight for Castiel's free will, fight to get him control over his own life again.  Funny how Dean worked out the right answer even though he was being sarcastic.  They'll get there eventually.  Hopefully sooner than later, though, right?
 
This Week's Theory
I don't think it's going to come as a surprise to anyone, but I'm thinking Benny is gonna fall off the wagon and Dean is gonna have to kill him.   Which sucks because I like Benny.  I get why Dean severed ties with him.  Dean felt like if he was asking Sam to be both feet in, he needed to be both feet in, too.
 
Bits and Pieces
Is anyone else constantly surprised by what they can get away with on this show?  The halo with the spikes being drilled into Samandriel's head was awful!

Aw, Castiel healed a baby.  As a mother, I can tell you that mother will NEVER forget that because her baby isn't crying anymore!  Yes, hooray, she's healed.  But not crying!

"That is his serious face, yes."

Crowley, king of Sass.

Where is Meg?  Anyone?  I really want to know what's going on with her right now.

"Manifest Through Shrubbery" is my new band name.
 
Okay, that's all I've got for now.  What did you all think of the episode?  Were you expecting a little more on the angel front?  I certainly was, but I'm definitely looking forward to its resolution in the second half of the season.

And I'll just remind everyone since it's been a little while since we've had a speculate piece, but this is a free commenting zone.  No comments will be moved to other threads for their content.  HOWEVER, you are still obliged to follow our commenting rules.  Basically, don't be mean to anyone, commenter or show writer or actor, etc.  Be polite and express your opinion without attacking anyone else's opinion.  Also, no Sam vs. Dean nonsense of any nature.  Thanks!

Comments  

Leah
# Leah 2013-01-17 02:01
Ardeospina- so glad to see the show return and the spec thread again. Some off the cuff thoughts:

Angel tablets, a few people on this site saw that one coming!! Frankly most of the angels are such d**ks I kinda hope they get sealed up in there!

Amelia gave Sam a rather cruddy ultimatum and I'm glad he didn't take her up on it. What was it? Stay and I will be with you against all I believe in or go and never return. The fact that they slept together while her husband was away on business didn't really sit well with me. I try and not be too jugdey but I wish they hadn't gone there. However Amelia sought him out (twice) and made the first move so I blame her more than Sam. If she is so content why do that?

I hope Cas, when he realizes what has been happening to him, gets all wrathful on the CIAngels asses.

I think Dean picked a bad time to bail on Benny. I get the statement he was making but he all but insured Benny's relapse and I felt very sad for him that his only friend let him down when he reached out.

I thought this was a pretty good episode even though I am irritated at almost everyone. Oh well I have the flu and that is probably a factor :-) Maybe I should relocate to the bitterness thread until I get well :-)
Michele dashnjo
# Michele dashnjo 2013-01-17 02:24
Still reeling a bit. I'm glad Sam and Dean are back on the same page but was expecting that to happen so not a surprise and no surprise that Sam chose Dean. I never get worried when they fight because it never lasts long ... has it ever? The angel tablet wasn't a surprise either ... it was the only reason I could think of that Naomi would care about the tablets so much. I'm reeling over the Cas thing because it was so huge and I'm hoping that Sam and Dean can figure it out before it's too late for him. From what poor Samandrial said it's not just Cas that she's controlling and that's kinda scary! Maybe angels weren't meant for free will for te most part but mind-control? I don't feel too bad for Amelia though as she'll just go home to her husband and that will be that. Benny, well, Dean had to give someone up too so I ... I do think he'll be back ... if anything to remind him not to give up on his friends either.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-01-17 02:59
Well, no offense, but I disagree with you on the brothers reunion. It seemed to me like Sam is finally chosen to get back in the game for good. The whole episode was Sam and Dean, both cutting loose other people to get back to business.

I was impressed with Dean telling Sam he was OK if he went with Amelia. I was glad they wrote it that way.

What I would like to see happen for Cas is that he gets angry when he finds out. Take control back.

Whatever they write, I can hardly wait
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-01-17 07:26
Quote:
I was impressed with Dean telling Sam he was OK if he went with Amelia. I was glad they wrote it that way.
I agree... and I think it was this comment from Dean that helped Sam make his decision to stay with Dean. Even though I wasn't sold on the Amelia storyline (and I'm glad Sam & Dean are back hunting together), I felt sad for Amelia when she chose Sam and he wasn't in the motel room waiting for her.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-01-17 03:11
I actually really liked the episode. (Sam caveat below) Though I'm sad that Alfie is dead, I liked Alfie. And I agree that is going to destroy Cas when he realizes what he has done and I feeling really bad for him-he is trying so hard. But I'm really liking that storyline.

I'm glad Amelia gone too. But I'm STILL hoping we get more about what happened to Sam. Because if that truly is all he is getting for a storyline this season-it pretty much sucks. But I still think something's up. I think maybe Sam and Castiel storylines are running parallel to each other and that each hint into Cas is also a hint into Sam-or that could be total wishful thinking.

I loved loved loved that Cas went and got Sam. (at first I was really scared Sam was going to be pining away in his hotel for most of the episode again). I would REALLY like if they became closer. They have more common ground than really Cas and Dean do. And that would give Sam's character an outlet that wasn't Dean, esp. when they are fighting. And we would get more insight into Sam. Because we've learned basically nothing from this Amelia storyline.

My problem with this episode is the same problem I've had all season. Sam. He has moments where I recognize him as the Sammy I love, but others where he just doesn't seem like the same person, esp. when he's with Amelia. I didn't like that he slept with her either. Sure the situation is complicated but her husband now believes they are together and happy and she is meeting Sam in hotels. I haven't been very fond of Amelia and that definitely doesn't help her character (although can totally understand the temptation-damn Sam look F@ck HOT.) But I've never been a fan of love triangles and this is why-both Sam and Amelia come off looking a little shabby.

But even leaving out the sleeping with her, he seemed very angry and confrontational after. Maybe it was just guilt or frustration, but he always seems a little off when he is with her.

I don't mind the reconciliation, if it is just another step on the path-which I think it is. I do like that they had them both pick each other. It was a little half-assed though, so I want something heartfelt. And I we've only have had Dean air his grievances and Sam giving pathetic defenses. I would like some form of quid pro quo. It doesn't need to be a fight just something where Sam's side is given.

Yeah, I think Benny's going to fall off the wagon too. I like Benny but I does make it more interesting if he is struggling.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-17 19:51
I think Benny's downfall was a foregone conclusion. I just personally hate for it to be Dean who is the final impetus for it and probably Dean who will be cleaning up the fallout. Including eliminating Benny. I saw that coming but I didn't see it a result of Dean cutting off his friendship with Benny when be reached out for help. I am glad the brothers are together but the timing of it all stinks and makes Dean look less than loyal to me. Telling Sam it was ok to be happy would have been enough IMO to show Dean felt bad and was offering up the first olive branch. I had no problem with Dean having to kill Benny if he screwed up but not like this when Benny is struggling to stay right. When a vampire falls off the wagon there are seldom second chances on this show.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-01-17 03:23
Initial rushed speculation. I’m not feeling the reunion either but I guess baby steps? Maybe it’s not a long term heal but it is a nice balm at the moment and at least if they're together they can talk and come to more of an understanding. Sam and Dean were both willing to give up something important to them for each other; that’s progress. (Though if you consider the possibility that maybe the only reason they choose to give up something important to them is because they believed it’s what the other wanted them to do then it’s not. Damn.....) And Amelia was willing to give up something important to her for Sam, that’s also progress. Being honest, I like Amelia and I like her all the more after this episode. She didn’t push Sam, she didn’t demand that he choose her, she didn’t have a strop, it wasn’t a ‘My way or the high way’ type ultimatum, she just said that if he chose her then she’d be there. Jeez, that was barely an ultimatum at all.

In relation to the adultery, it might say a lot about me but it doesn’t particularly bother me, especially not in this context. In fairness, Sam and Dean have single handedly shattered every one of the Ten Commandments multiple times so I ain’t gonna get all hung up on this one! Given Amelia’s speech after the naughties I got the idea that it was Sam she wanted, Sam she loved and Sam she chose and were it not for the ‘life’ they’d be together so that lessens the whole ‘adultery’ thing for me. We don't know where Amelia stands with Don. He loves her but we don't know how she feels about him. We don't know if they'll stay married. Amelia doesn't strike me as being cruel enough to stay with Don is she didn't love him wholeheartedly. And it’s not as if she suggested that Sam be her bit on the side long term (now that would have immoral, and skeavy!) I don’t know if we’ve seen the last of her, I certainly hope not. Carver was talking about her in terms of ‘love of the life’ terms so if this is how it ends then it’s a bit of an anticlimax.

I like what Kevin said in terms of ‘I can enjoy it when this is all over with’. It certainly seemed to give Dean pause so perhaps he also thought about why they are hunting. In the past they were fighting for peace, for safety, for happiness. Can they still say they are doing that?

I didn’t watch a lot of the Samandriel torture, I’d it on mute until there was actually talking. I can’t bear to listen to screams and damn, there was a hell of a lot of them in this episode. That kind of almost medieval torture type shit is something I find hard to watch, and being honest, find completely unnecessary. We’ve seen demons, angels (and Sam) torture with a twist of their hand, and it was damn effective. This just felt like gratuitous violence, gore for the sake of it. I also found it strange that Alastair laughed in the face of physical (old school!) torture but he crumpled at the supernatural type torture yet Crowley is employing physical torture on a celestial being. (So are the lines blurred re Samandriel and Alfie here?) It’s also been a while since I studied biology but by hitting certain parts of the brain you can get people to say certain things? Really!!! That makes the angels almost robotic in their set up. (Actually, I think that happened to Bender in an episode of Futurama).

Strangely though, I was thinking ‘Don’t kill him, you need to get information out of him’ in relation to Dr. Demengele. (Okay, slightly counter-product ive argument there!)

Yeah, Castiel will be gutted when he realises what he did but is there a bigger picture thing here as well? Is Naomi evil or is she, like Castiel etc did, doing what she believes is the right thing to protect her people? Neither Naomi nor Crowley wants to the gates to their respective abodes closed so I wonder when Sam and Dean figure out what’s going on (and seriously, they haven’t figured it out yet? Jeez, once the fans found out there was a hell closing tablet, as well as a Purgatory closing one, the bulk of them guessed there was a heaven closing one and we’re not hunters!) what course of action they’ll take. Will they want heaven closed as well as hell (cos closing one but not the other would be disastrous, and would pretty much give the angels free reign on earth) or will they not risk it and leave the hell gates open so that the gates of heaven can also remain open. And will closing these gates mean that souls can no longer go in, or just that demons/angels can’t get out?

I’m with you on Benny falling off the wagon; it’s just a matter of when and in what circumstances. Is he going to be upfront about it, a sort of suicide by hunter or he going to try and keep it hidden in order to self preserve. Honestly, I think Benny has been tipping off the wagon since we first saw him watching that funeral in 8.01. He’s given the classic vampire teeth response when he sees blood on more than one occasion now. It’s possible that he truly wants to be the non-vegetarian vegetarian vampire but has fate aligned against him to such an extent that what he wants simply isn’t possible?

I mean, how many people started diets seventeen days ago, and how many of them will see it out? Could Benny manage to stay off the blood if Dean were around, or is he more susceptible now that he’s on his own? Again, back to the diet metaphor, it’s easier staying on the diet when you’re in a diet club but it’s when you’re on your own that the true challenge starts. It’s when you’re on your own that you decide whether or not you really want it, or if you just think you want it. I’m hoping that when (if, it might not) it happens Dean will realise that it’s on Benny, not on him. Benny is responsible for his own actions and his own choices.

Onto a character thing, I’m really missing empathic Dean. I mean, really missing him. I’m finding his flippancy this season to be less endearing and more off-putting. Seriously, there’s a guy in front of you covered in horrific burns and you make a joke about it? (Maybe because Sam and Dean tended to balance each other out in situations like that in the past it didn’t bother as much or maybe because burns are horrifically painful but I know that if I was the guy in the hospital bed in that situation then Dean would have gotten as much of a middle finger as I could give him and no more.) The same with Kevin; the guy is there up to his eyeballs in tablets and ‘I need to do this to save the world’ and Dean comes in and demands to be served first? And then he intentionally tries to distract him from this bloody hugely important job because he was bored!! It was the same with the scene at the start. I find it worrying that (a) Dean didn’t even think of things like Jessica and the absolute terror that Sam would have felt the entirety of the drive back to Texas and (b) it didn’t seem to overly bother him when he did find out how much it did affect him. (And then “If you’d have just heard me out, if you had just trusted me then all of this would have been avoided.” What?? Is anyone going to accept responsibility for their own decisions on this show any more?) I’m sure it sounds like I’m sniping about small things because these are all things that Dean has done before but now, for me, it gives off a vibe of self- importance and it feels that, possibly as a result of Purgatory, Dean is more about the hunt and less about the person and I don’t like it when they get the family motto backwards.

Sorry about that......

Also, ‘at least one of us should be happy’. Ah, what? Okay, so was Dean saying that he wants Sam to be happy and he knows that he’s not happy in hunting or is he saying that if Sam is happy then he (Dean) won’t be because he knows that for Sam to be happy he needs to be out of hunting but if Sam is out of hunting then he (Dean) can’t be happy and he wants Sam to know that he can’t be happy if Sam isn’t hunting? (Yes, it was confusing to write as well, okay....)

And Castiel, if the hunting thing doesn’t work out then my brother and his wife will put you on the books as a full time nanny. They have twins, you have two hands so it’s a match made in heaven!

Thanks for this, Ardeospina.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 04:43
I liked Amelia as well. Her "ultimatum" made perfect sense. She's trying to make a go with her husband, but she still has feelings for Sam. She'd rather be with Sam, but he has this whole secret life. We have been told that Sam had been leaving to go to the cabin at times during the year they were together, so asking him to stay put if she chucks her marriage for him made a lot of sense. The adultery didn't bother me per se, but it is part of the Sam is a bad person meme the show has been pushing since episode one, so it did bother me for that reason. Plus we now have the spectre of a pregnant Amelia not knowing who the daddy is, because the writers were determined to do a "human" story for Sam and decided that human=soap opera.

I agree with you about missing empathetic Dean. I would far rather Dean have said "I'm sorry I scared you that much about Amelia, I was a doofus and didn't thing about the whole being like Jess thing" rather than I was wrong, so can you get over it now.

Quote:
Also, ‘at least one of us should be happy’. Ah, what? Okay, so was Dean saying that he wants Sam to be happy and he knows that he’s not happy in hunting or is he saying that if Sam is happy then he (Dean) won’t be because he knows that for Sam to be happy he needs to be out of hunting but if Sam is out of hunting then he (Dean) can’t be happy and he wants Sam to know that he can’t be happy if Sam isn’t hunting? (Yes, it was confusing to write as well, okay....)
I'll go for a mix of these. He realizes Sam won't be happy hunting, but he won't be happy with Sam not hunting. So he gives Sam his permission to leave, but does it while making sure Sam knows how unhappy Dean will be.

I would be more impressed by Dean giving up Benny if he had actually told Sam about it, but maybe that will happen off screen. As it stands, Dean knows Sam gave up a woman he loves to stay in the game, and Sam knows Dean said he's not sure if he can quit Benny.

I was not thrilled with this episode.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-01-17 05:01
Whoa.'Spectre of a pregnant Amelia.' What??
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 05:21
Considering I have been very unimpressed with the writing for Sam, I am considering the idea that Amelia will come back pregnant with a "I don't know if the baby is Sam's or Don's" storyline. I really, really hope this won't happen and I'm truly not expecting it, but with a final one night stand, it leaves for the perfect setup to bring Sam's need for normal back to the show for the 1821st time.

ETA this www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWJIawjGRl4 is how it could go.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-01-17 15:13
Quote:
(And then “If you’d have just heard me out, if you had just trusted me then all of this would have been avoided.” What?? Is anyone going to accept responsibility for their own decisions on this show any more?)
Certainly not Sam in any case. Dean, however, did admit that he was wrong in the way he handled the situation in the last episode. It's more than Sam did. Sam didn't admit to any wrongdoing, even though HE made the choice to not tell Martin about the phone message, he made the choice to steal Martin's car, and he made the choice to leave Martin all alone on the case with no backup. Those actions too were wrong, IMO.

Both brothers' (& Benny's) actions led to Martin's death. Benny apologized for his part and Dean owned up to being wrong. But there was nothing from Sam. Well, no, Sam did issue an ultimatum to Dean - their continued partnership was all up to Dean. Sam demanded that Dean had to be "done" with Benny.

Quote:
Also, ‘at least one of us should be happy’. Ah, what?
Dean: Don’t you have a girl to get back to?

Sam: Since when were you on the Amelia bandwagon?

Dean: I don’t know. I’m just tired of all the fighting. And…I don’t know…maybe I’m a little bit jealous. I could never separate myself from the job like you could. Maybe it’s time for at least one of us to be happy.

Sam: You being such a big hugger and all? She does make me happy.


Dean was saying that he wants Sam to be happy, and if being with Amelia makes Sam happy, then that's what he wanted Sam to do. Of course Dean would be happy if Sam stayed with him and hunted. He's always been completely upfront about that, and Sam knows this. I don't know why Dean should lie about it now? So he was being honest with Sam about the situation.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-01-17 15:54
Quote:
Certainly not Sam in any case. Dean, however, did admit that he was wrong in the way he handled the situation in the last episode. It's more than Sam did. Sam didn't admit to any wrongdoing, even though HE made the choice to not tell Martin about the phone message, he made the choice to steal Martin's car, and he made the choice to leave Martin all alone on the case with no backup. Those actions too were wrong, IMO.

Both brothers' (& Benny's) actions led to Martin's death. Benny apologized for his part and Dean owned up to being wrong. But there was nothing from Sam. Well, no, Sam did issue an ultimatum to Dean - their continued partnership was all up to Dean. Sam demanded that Dean had to be "done" with Benny.
Sorry Chris J, but for me, Martin’s action led to Martin’s death. He is the one who chose to go it alone. Even after Sam left and even after he talked to Dean on the phone, he chose to walk to the diner, ring Benny, and threaten Elizabeth in order to get him there. Do you believe that that would have been Sam's course of action had he not left? Martin could have chosen to step back, he could have chosen to contact another hunter; he didn’t.

Martin was older than both Sam and Dean and quite probably a more experienced hunter. It’s possible he had hunted on his own before that. It’s possible that he always hunted with a partner. If it’s the former, then him choosing to go it on his own is understandable (because it’s what he’d have done in the past and always ended up alive). If it was the latter then he was overconfident and foolish by choosing to hunt without a partner. Either way, his choice, his actions, his (unfortunate) consequences. His intentions might have been noble (kill monster, save lives) but his actions were foolish. However, Sam didn’t make him do it, Martin didn’t make him do it. Hell, not even Benny made him do it. There were no Jedi mind tricks involved in this episode.

Quote:
Dean was saying that he wants Sam to be happy, and if being with Amelia makes Sam happy, then that's what he wanted Sam to do. Of course Dean would be happy if Sam stayed with him and hunted. He's always been completely upfront about that, and Sam knows this. I don't know why Dean should lie about it now? So he was being honest with Sam about the situation.
This is the thing. When he said ‘...at least one of us should be happy’, who do you think he was talking about; himself or Sam? And if only one is happy then is the other unhappy so who would the other be; himself or Sam?
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-01-17 16:12
Dean was talking about Sam being the one who should be happy (i.e. with Amelia). Dean felt that Sam would choose to be with Amelia and he was okay with that.

As for Martin, of course he should be held responsible for his actions. However, Sam brought him into this particular hunt of Benny, even though Sam knew that Martin was fresh out of a mental hospital, and even though Sam knew how complicated the Benny situation was.

Also, Sam should have been more sensitive to the fact that Martin had spent YEARS in a mental hospital. He may have been stable enough to live a relatively normal life, but he obviously was not stable enough to handle the life of a hunter. Sam should have just told Martin that he didn't have any hunt for him and wished him luck in his recovery. IMO.

IMO Sam's actions were foolish. You do not leave your partner without backup and without any word that you've left at all! I think Sam's actions were especially hypocritical considering how angry Sam was at Dean in Blood Brother when Dean took on vamps without backup.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-17 16:29
Dean contributed to that situation . It wasnt a case of Sam just cleared off because he felt like it , you heard what he said to Dean at the begining of this episode when he got that text the rush of fears that must of gone through his head let alone the visions .

So while yes it is easy to point fingers at Sam it wasnt as simple as that was it. And Martin wether people want to hold up he wasnt stable as some sort of stick at Sam the fact was the man was lucid and quite able to make decisions .

There was alot of factors that resulted in that situation not just a Sam screwed up again and how foolish he was to react the way he did.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-01-17 16:45
I never said Dean didn't contribute to the situation. He did and he admitted to being wrong. I never said it was only Sam who screwed up. It's that Sam did not admit to any wrongdoing, when both Benny and Dean did.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-17 22:58
Quote:
It's that Sam did not admit to any wrongdoing,
Because he did not do anything wrong.Sam does not suffer from Dean's problem of blaming himself for things he is not responsible for.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-01-17 16:53
However by saying what he said then he was also letting Sam know that if he chose Amelia then he (Dean) would be unhappy. So by saying that, was he was also saying that if Sam chooses to be happy then he’s choosing to make Dean unhappy? So yes, while what Dean said was honest I do wonder about Dean’s reasoning behind putting in that addendum to it.

In relation to Martin, yes, as you said he was OUT of a mental hospital (and did Martin not check himself into that mental hospital voluntarily ie he wasn't committed?) and we don’t know how long he spent there. Some hunters cope with the stresses of hunting by hitting the bottle, this is how Martin chose to cope. (Actually, isn't this a much healthier way of coping!)

I'll be honest, chris J, I don’t particularly like the idea of ‘Oh you were in a mental hospital, you’re clearly unstable so we've nothing for you to help us with'. That's one hell of a stigma. I mean, Sam spent time in a mental hospital (as did Dean and during that episode it was suggested that Dean had issues that would require professional help) so should he be considered the same as Martin? Martin was stable enough to track down Benny and he was stable enough to put a plan together to kill him, a plan that other hunters have utilised many times over the seasons; in Free To Be You and Me the hunters used Lindsey to get to Sam. Gordon used Dean to get to Sam. Sam and Dean did it when they used Michael to get the striga. Are they all unstable?

Add to that, the Benny situation was not complicated until the killing started. Sam did not set Martin the task of killing Benny, just to keep an eye on him; a relatively simple job and an easy way to ease him back into the hunting regime. Had there been no vampire deaths then the situation would have remained uncomplicated.

Just thinking about the Sam Martin situation, didn't Sam say to Martin at some stage to ‘follow his lead’? So why didn’t Martin follow his lead and leave when Sam left?

In relation to Blood Brother, Sam was angry that Dean took on a vampire nest on his own (or so he thought). However, Sam did not know that Martin would decide to take on Benny on his own. He probably wasn’t thinking about Martin at all, so caught up was he with the Amelia situation. And if he did think about Martin I’d say he’d be thinking ‘Martin would never be so stupid as to go after a vampire on his own’.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 17:31
Look, I love Sam as much as anybody else, but he was wrong to ditch Martin in the woods. It was a rude, jerky thing to do!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-01-17 18:02
Lala2, you know, considering the circumstances I think it was pretty understandable. Had Sam first taken the time to drop Martin back to his motel before he then embarked on a frantic drive across the country (state? I don't do geography) in a panic to get to Amelia, who he believed was in danger, then while he might have been mannerly, he’d also have been stupid, with a (as far as he knew) possibly dead girlfriend.

Yes, there was a huge element of panic dictating Sam's actions because if Sam stopped to think he could have rang her workplace or the guards or the motel and asked them to maybe check on Amelia or something like that, but I don't know if you've even been in a comparable situation to that (gotten a call about bad news re a loved one) but everything else pretty much pales in significance.

So while you might think that what he did was ‘rude’ and ‘jerky’, for me, it was perfectly understandable.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 18:40
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I thought it was very wrong of Sam to leave Martin stranded in the woods. It's not like Amelia was 15 minutes away. She was hours away. Sam could have demanded that Martin get in the car because they had to leave and then he could have dropped off Martin in town or something.

It was a real ****ish thing to do IMO.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-17 19:02
Let me understand something. Dean Winchester, by show and per the fans is tghe biggest, baddest, best hunter on the planet gets cold cocked while in his right mind. and yet Sam...not the biggest, baddest, best hunter on the planet...out of his mind with worry was supposed to what?

Think rationally and convince Martin to do what martin didn't want to do? And if somehow Sam managed to keep his fear and concern for Ameila at bay and tried to convince Martin to leave....what would have kept Martin from cold cocking Sam and leaving him in the woods unconcious?

Why do you expect Sam to do what Dean the #1 hunter on the planet couldn't do?
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 19:26
Listen . . . if Dean had left Martin stranded in the woods, I would have the same opinion. I just think it was a dirty thing to do, Amy. That's all. It's not a Sam or Dean thing for me, and it has nothing, IMO, to do with strength or being a badass.

All Sam had to say was, "Come on, Martin. We gotta go." That's all. If Martin refused, then at least Sam tried.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 00:42
Quote:
Listen . . . if Dean had left Martin stranded in the woods, I would have the same opinion. I just think it was a dirty thing to do, Amy. That's all. It's not a Sam or Dean thing for me, and it has nothing, IMO, to do with strength or being a badass.

All Sam had to say was, "Come on, Martin. We gotta go." That's all. If Martin refused, then at least Sam tried.
I agree with you on this. Even if it's Garth who was hunting with Martin and ditch him, Garth would still be in the wrong. Just like Sam didn't even think to 'look for Dean'. Just letting go and not investigating Dean's disappearance. Is this the kind of Sam that the writers think? I don't remember Sam being this selfish in early seasons.

But the problem lays on Sam's wrong decision to bring Martin into the fray considering that Martin been in the mental Hospital and still not sane enough to hunt.
- Sam's reason : Because he needs someone to spy on Benny because he's angry that Dean kept Benny a secret. To satisfy his own suspicion he took Martin. Sam did that for his own needs.
- Sam ditching Martin to go to Amelia afterwards only to give into his own fear, he worries about Amelia (understandable ) but not Martin. Why not? He knows Benny's not a stable person.

Conclusion, ever since the start when Sam asked Martin to spy on Benny, he already signed on Martin's death. Taking Martin to hunt is wrong because martin is not that sane. He couldn't be expected to make the right judgement.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-18 02:29
Martin was sane he wasnt crazy to say asking Martin to keep an eye on Benny was signing his death warrant is IMO unfair and I can't agree with it . Martin asked him for a job that was it . Sam didnt seek Martin out or forced Martin to do anything .

Martin was going to hunt with or without Sam or keeping a eye on Benny because he was able to make decisions . Frankly people are going overboard with the whole Martin wasnt sane and therefore incapable and its all on Sam because he asked Martin to watch Benny .
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 15:04
then dumped him in town and Martin being a hunter went after Benny anyway? Yes that makes sense, obviously that would have made all the difference and it all only would have been Martins fault? Where is the logic in that?
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-18 18:02
There's no need to be rude! That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree. I think I have been quite clear that I think it would have been wrong for ANYONE (Sam, Dean, John, Bobby, Garth, Rufus, Ellen, Jo, Pam, Meg, Crowley, Castiel, etc.) to ditch Martin in the woods.

I see a difference btw being stranded in the middle of nowhere and being brought back to your motel, but that's just me.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2013-01-19 18:20
That message looked like a booty call to me. It looked to me like Dean's intent was not to send Sam into a blind panic. I guess it says a lot about Sam's mental state that he took it that way, especially considering he spent months pretending the supernatural didn't matter. At any rate, Dean apologized for hurting Sam.

I"ve had relatives in the mental hospital, so I get where you're coming from. However, in Sam interrupted and in Citizen Fang, there were numerous tells that martin was a mess, and not capable of handling a hunt. Involving martin is on Sam. He brought him into the situation and abandoned him. Not only that, but by taking the man's keys and telling him to only do what he's told, sam is implicitly aclnowledging that martin is not capable of good judgement. Martin had a working phone. He could have called or texted at the least. Sam's actions seemed to send the man over the edge.

However, I feel Dean is right to call Sam out on creating the entire situation by his irrational response to Benny. I say irrational because even though Sam is a hunter his character has been defined by his sympathy towards monsters trying to stay clean and numerous times he has let monsters live by their word. Even this season with kate. So, his reaction to Benny seems out of character. In fact I see jealousy because his brother left him and hunted with someone else by choice.
this opinion is all over the internet because Sam's reaction makes no sense for his character. Add to this his ultimatum to Dean that his decision would ne based on whether Dean would continue to see Benny... jealousy. If Sam was motivated as a hunter he would want Benny dead regardless of whether Dean would continue to see him. Seriously the dialogue in that scene was so ... wrong for two brothers. So, since I see Sam's actions as motivated by jealousy and not a desire to save I feel that he should apologize for his role in setting the entire fiasco into motion.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-19 21:07
Quote:
At any rate, Dean apologized for hurting Sam.
No, he absolutely, positively did NOT apologize for hurting Sam. Sam tells him how panicked he was that Amelia was dead or dying. Dean says he had to get Sam out TO SAVE BENNY. Not as others have said to save both of them. Dean made it clear that saving Sam was NOT on the agenda. Sam asks if that is what it has come to saving a vampire and Dean doesn't say I'm sorry I scared you, I didn't think. He says "What do you want me to say Sam?" "Fine, I was wrong,". And then he goes on to tell Sam that it's all Sam's fault for not trusting DEAN the guy who just lied to him and made him think the woman he loved was dead. All Dean is looking for is a way to get Sam to shut up because hurting Sam that way, not an issue for Dean.

I also disagree that Sam is having an irrational response to Benny. Sam is clear, he trusts Dean, he doesn't trust Benny who Dean has specifically hidden from him. Dean decided to hurt Sam to save Benny. I know many people are upset that Sam wants Dean to be done with Benny, but Benny is the one Dean put first. Dean cared about Benny's life, not Sam's ACCORDING TO DEAN HIMSELF. Dean was willing to throw Sam into hours of the personal Hell of thinking the woman he loved was in danger. Dean went through that with Lisa and he decided that keeping Benny safe was more important than Sam's peace of mind. If I'm trusting my life to someone, I need to know that he is not willing to play with my mind in order to save a friend who is also a dangerous creature.

Sam isn't jealous, he is just protecting himself from Dean, who expects when he says jump, Sam should say how high and who if Sam doesn't say how high will use any psychological pressure or pain to get Sam out of the way.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-19 22:00
I find it disurbing that fans and the writers see nothing wrong with Dean using emotional and psycological torture as a weapon against Sam....his own brother.

Dean is truely Alistairs star pupil......or maybe the student has surpassed the teacher.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-19 22:50
I have seen no comments that have said using torture of any kind against Sam is ok. Using the text like that was seen as a dick move by most and it was. I don't think it was entirely thought through by Dean. It accomplished what he was trying to do but the cruelty was not deliberate IMO.

Your last sentence seems unfair and uncalled for. Are you really comparing Deans torture/torturi ng in hell to the ill advised text message ruse?
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-19 23:11
The text wasn't ill advised. it was downrifght malicious and cruel without a shred of empathy or thought. And this from a guy who has shared the same loss of everyone he's loved with Sam.

I can either compare Dean to a thoughtless 12 year old (Ben telling him Lisa was desperaltly sick) or I can compare Dean to an manipulative Angel (Zack...listen tyou bloood sucking freak) who changed a voicemail to manipulate Sam to get a desired outcome.

Dean isn't a child.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-19 23:42
Well I am not sure how that addressed my question but I get that you can't see that Dean might have had any other motivation other than to be cruel, malicious and mean to Sam. I feel otherwise.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-19 23:53
To add- I think in retrospect Dean regrets the pain that this caused Sam. To have come to the conclusion that Dean spends time looking for ways torture/hurt is to have no understanding of Dean as a character.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-19 23:57
....to torture/hurt his brother is to have no understanding of Dean as a character.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-20 01:25
Amy,

On the one hand, I see your point. I have no illusions about how harsh Dean Winchester can be or the measures he will take to do what he thinks is right. He's a hardened hunter, that's for sure. And I certainly see where you're coming from with the "psychological weapon" bit. I think that's why Sam made the comment, "Is that what we are, Dean?" Because he thought it was quite cruel as well.

However, "torture" is a loaded word. You have to look past the action to the intent, here. Dean's intent was not to hurt Sam. It was to distract him. And he knew Amelia-in-need was the only thing that would distract Sam from the hunt and get him away from Benny. Quite simply, it was a means to an end. Desperate times, from Dean's perspective.

I would agree that it was cruel and thoughtless, but not that it was malicious or torturous. I would also agree that post-Purgatory Dean lacks empathy he once had. But comparing him to Alistair?

First, the mere comparison makes very little of the torture Dean experienced in Hell. Second, suggesting that Dean's intent was to torture his brother, as opposed to distracting him, suggests a vicious and active hatred of his brother that is not supported by evidence from the show.

Remember, this is the same Dean who eventually came around and told Sam he should go and be happy, who saved his life in the warehouse, who still has his brother's back even when they fight.

So yes, comparing Dean's action to a thoughtless 12 year old may be more accurate in this case.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-20 08:28
ok...torterous is wrong. But Malicious and cruel still stands. Dean took the forsight to create a plan that would exploit and manipulate a weakness in Sam: Fear for loved ones safety ,,,and then he used that knowlwedge to manipulate him to acheive his end goals.

Who does that? Angels and demons.

Benny just wanted his mommey and daddy back as a family. Angels and demons want to hurt as much as possible while achgeieving their end goals.

Dean is too smart, to crafy, too much the hardened hunter to just be compared to a thoughtless child. he had an end goal and was willing to use whatever he could to do it. ...and since we seem to be arguing about it, the only ones who can tell us for sure if Dean simply a thoughtless, selfish adult or a manipulative hunter who used an arsonal of knowledge and history between him and Sam against Sam

Well thats up to the writers.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-19 23:29
Of course Dean's text was a dick move, even if it was meant to save a life. ISam has made some dick moves that hurt Dean, and Dean has made some dick moves that hurt Sam. Comparing either one of them to a torturous demon is way beyond the point of objectivity and pretty close to the definition of character bashing, in my opinion.

I'm fine with Dean taking responsibility for his own actions. His actions were a lie that caused Sam some hours of worry and fear. They were not, however, 30 years of continuous torture, an action designed to permanently cut Sam off from his only support and manipulate him to release Satan. To equivilate them is very hyperbolic to me, and just trying to demonize, pardon the pun, a character.

Sam has done some shady things to Dean in the course of the show, just as Dean has to Sam, but I would never equivilate Sam's actions to a demon's or an angel's. At the end of the day, Sam and Dean are still brothers who love about each other, even though to me it doesn't seem like either one likes the other much at the moment. I hope that changes sometime soon.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-19 22:27
I don't know, just because Dean didn't say those exact words didn't mean he wasn't thinking of his brother's safety. He told BOTH of them not to underestimate the other. He HAD to know that either Benny or Sam would end up dead and he did what he could to circumvent that. I agree the way he did it was very hurtful and wrong but I can't buy that all that Dean had on his mind was to hurt Sam and save Benny as you seem so willing to believe. Hell I am mad at Dean right now myself so I will never argue that he is perfect but to think some part of that action wasn't to protect Sam, seems unfathomable to me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-19 22:56
Let's say you are right, which I'm not conceding. What he makes crystal clear to Sam is that the only thing he wanted was to save BENNY. Dean doesn't say both of you, or make certain that neither of you died. IF Dean wanted to save both of them he was being incredibly cruel to Sam to tell him that the reason he played with Sam's mind was only to save Benny. What was Dean trying to do to Sam to make him believe that he only cared about Benny, not Sam. Did he say it because it was true or because he wanted to punish Sam and let Sam know that Sam means less to him than Benny? What you have set up, IMHO, is that Dean either wasn't thinking about protecting Sam or he was punishing Sam by letting him know that Sam has less worth than Benny. If he is punishing Sam that is horrible.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-19 23:20
He didn't tell Sam that he told Benny not to underestimate his brother either. Dean is a stubborn person not ever prone to sharing and caring conversations and though he loves his brother he is, IMO, at this stage not going to admit that to him. I honestly don't think he is punishing Sam and he is extremely glad Sam is by his side. That is what makes him happy. So no, I don't feel that he is punishing Sam. I think they are being very cautious in their dealings with one another until some trust is built again between them. And it isn't all on Dean to do that. The fractures have been caused and felt by both this season.

I think the move with Benny should say, without saying, who is the more important person to Dean. I personally hated the timing of that but I do think he did it as a sign of solidarity to Sam.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-20 00:00
Leah and emmau thank you both for coming down on the side of not demonising (hah) either of the guys for the things they have done. True some of what was done was mean, unfair, hurtful, thoughtless and unkind. But that's brothers who are bad at communicating for you.
Apologies are owed and I assume will be made and accepted (oh please! Enough with the mystery and gloom and fighting already!).
However guys (specifically these two) being what they are at least some of the apologies will not be verbal enough for us partisan fans...but I live in hope that at least some of them will be :D
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-20 00:11
Sam and Dean are both flawed heroes—I think everyone can agree on that, right? They’ve both done some fantastic, loving, self-sacrificin g things for each other. They’ve also both done some mean, hurtful, thoughtless, unfair, and unkind things to each other (and that’s just this season!). That’s very human, and to accept them as three-dimension al characters means that you have to accept that both Sam and Dean have both made mistakes this season, have communicated horribly (what else is new), but still are drawn to be together despite all of it because at the end of the day their brotherhood still means something to them, even if some fans choose not to value it anymore. Dean stated it outright—his place is with Sam. Just because Sam hasn’t said it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have the same measure of love for his brother, at least in my opinion.

I further agree with you, elif, that more apologies and explanations are owed on both sides, and I hope this episode was only the beginning of their reconciliation. As Southern Comfort showed us, all of show’s past slapping a band-aid on their issues hasn’t really done what it should have, so I hope the gloom and mystery gives way to some true rebuilding of their foundation and care.

Honestly, some fans are never going to be happy with one brother or another no matter what. Discussion is always good, though, and through that sometimes we find a way to common ground. Sometimes not, but nothing wrong with trying, right?
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-20 00:24
If I can add to this comment, I don’t see Sam reacting any better to Dean telling him that he sent him the text in order to protect him. 1) Sam would most likely see it as Dean rationalizing his own actions as correct, and 2) Sam would most likely see it as Dean treating him as a little brother/lesser hunter, assuming that he couldn’t hold his own against one vampire. So instead, Dean treated Sam like the equal he wants to be, and cited what Sam believed—that Benny was the one about to be killed by Sam, so he protected him as best he knew how. He clearly warned Sam against going against Benny, citing fear for his safety, but Sam didn’t want to hear that then, so why would he want to hear it now?

Again, Dean doesn’t say everything to Sam, just as Sam doesn’t vocalize his feelings to Dean. That doesn’t mean that the absence of information is confirmation of the worst case scenario, in my opinion. I agree that they are both being very closed off from each other right now, and it’s on both of them to fix it, because they’ve both played a hand in causing the damage in their relationship.

I’m not sure Dean’s motivations for cutting Benny off, since he did not fully articulate them onscreen. But I further agree the fact that he’s hunting with Sam and not speaking to Benny, just as Sam wished, is not insignificant. I don’t think it was the only factor in his decision and maybe not even the primary one, but I don’t discount the theory that it was part of his reasoning. Am I to think that Sam rejoining Dean specifically on this hunt had nothing to do with Dean and everything to do with the hunt, despite the fact that Sam could have pursued it alone, because he didn’t say that? I hope not. Again, I don’t think it was the sole factor in Sam’s decision, but for the bond to be repaired I have to believe Sam wants it as much as Dean does. At the end of the day, it’s all about perception, though.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-20 00:25
I can never figure out where things are going to appear in a line of comments. I was trying to piggyback on Leah's comment four posts above.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-20 00:53
It can be a lottery sometimes can't it :D
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-20 01:07
Slightly off topic:
I am not entirely sure what Benny expects Dean to do to help him. Yes they can meet and Dean can say 'don't chow down on people' and Benny can say 'OK, brother' (and I can get that translated on closed caption) but then what? How does a hunter stop a vampire from reverting?

Well there's one obvious way ....

But what else? Benny can't work as a hunter - he nearly attacked Dean the last time they worked together. Dean can't be with him 24/7 because Dean needs to sleep and you don't really want to be near an unstable vampire while you are asleep...

.... you know it is really difficult to write this in a way that doesn't sound like a slash fic ... :D

Benny has been 'clean' before all on his own, he didn't need help then, there is no reason why he should need more help now.

If we assume he is on the level and there is no horrible secret in his background (I hope there IS a horrible secret in his background, but that's just me) then what he really is looking for is to have his friend / brother-in-arms back. And that guy is busy.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-20 01:17
I'm personally not hoping for a horrible secret due to my fervent hopes that show avoid cannibalizing past storylines this season, but I can agree to almost everything else here, I think. Benny has the right to want his friend/brother- in-arms back, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Dean owes that to him. Dean really can't babysit him to make sure he stays on the wagon, and that wasn't really part of their agreement topside.

Now, do I find it out of character for Dean to turn abruptly on someone he praised so highly and thought of as someone he could count on? Yes, and I'm doing my own rationalizing trying to reconcile that. He's always been loyal, so him just deciding that he can't be in contact with Benny anymore doesn't fit--unless he's putting Sam first, which makes it make more sense to me. Yes, Dean is busy and has a lot on his plate--that didn't stop him from helping Castiel or going on any of the MotW hunts this season. So to me, it's not all about the job or all about Sam, but a mixture of both. But always it has to be considered that the PTB featured Benny as especially needy this episode to ramp up the melodrama when Dean cuts ties. They do love their angst.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-20 01:36
Well it really was a choice though. He couldn't do both so he had to pick. And Sam AND the job at hand outweighs Benny. It is all or nothing though, one or the other.

With regard to the cannibalizing story-lines there is a fair amount of that going on anyway. Whether it is because they have run out of variations you can do with only 2 main characters or whether it is deliberate callbacks to old storylines I don't know. But either Benny joins the scooby gang, or he becomes an antagonist. those seem to be the options.

Dean getting another BFF he can communicate with and who has to be kept away from Sam while he also continues to lead a totally guiltless love-em and leave-em life with random nameless women*, while at the same time Sam's relationship success rate is still dismal ** (sorry Amelia) and his friend level is zero is the most cliched thing so far this season so any change in that would work for me.... ;-)

*in fairness there hasn't been any evidence of this for a while but it IS Dean....
**Dean: It's like I said, being easy is all upside!
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-20 10:28
Oh, I agree that show does and probably will again cannibalize its storylines. I simply want to encourage as little of it as possible.

I think there are more options for Benny than the Castiel route or the Ruby route, personally. I also don't perscribe to the fan theory of "Well, if Sam doesn't get this, Dean shouldn't", and vice versa. I think show could do a better job of giving both boys connections personally, though I may be in a minority.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 02:24
I am not completely convinced that Benny is above board but on the surface of it, it looked like he was close to a relapse and was looking to his friend for support. I'm still trying to work this through. I didn't expect him to run to Benny's side, hold his hand, and hold his mouth shut but giving a little support to a friend/comrade in dire straits over the phone would have worked for me. Instead of kicking him to the curb. I have a hard time seeing Dean do this. I am sure the PTB did this for the very reasons you said and it was effective. I am realizing that I am judging Dean by my view of what is right and wrong (thanks Bamboo) and not how a hunter and Dean specifically would see this. I'll get there.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-20 02:35
I think that, in the same way that Sam went back to Ruby when he wanted to because he hadn't promised anyone but himself that he was done with that part of his life, Dean could connect again with Benny. Especially since the fans like him. I think we have at least a few more Benny Goodvamp (sorry...) episodes to go.

Does that help at all? :-)
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 03:21
Hi eilf, thanks for the laugh. I realize not everyone is a Benny fan but at this point he SEEMS like Benny Goodvamp. I do think they will meet up again and it will probably be a very unhappy reunion. Already bracing for that episode. It's a process :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-20 14:56
I have to agree, I don't see what Dean can do to help Benny, short of giving up his life and devoting it to keeping Benny sober. I'm sorry Benny lost the family he had in Liz. I'm sorry Lenore and her group aren't around to be a vampire AA for Benny, but that's life.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 17:46
A person doesn't have to devote their life to another or rush to their side at every beck and call to be supportive. You also don't have to pick that moment (when they call in desperation) to tell your friend that the friendship is over. I actually felt Benny was doomed from the get go. And especially now that he has killed a hunter. My issue is more about Dean turning his back on his friend. I always felt Dean would be the one who would have to eliminate Benny. I am just disappointed that he may have given him that final shove to go there. I feel he needed to sever ties at some point. But like this? Feels wrong.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-19 23:35
In context, Sam and Dean were both pretty angry and defensive at this point, weren't they? Sam was rightfully angry about the text and was facing Martin's death and the fact that his plan to expose Benny as evil to Dean had failed. Dean had just seen Sam keen to kill someone he considered a friend, been cut off by Sam by both hang up and a near door slam, and Sam had made it clear that he wasn't going to listen to anything Dean had to say at that point. Whether Sam had the right to be so isn't the point, so I'm not going to argue it.

The point is, as so many fans have stated, if we're waiting for long, drawn out conversations and explanations from the boys, we're probably going to be here until rapture, if you'll forgive the expression. No, Dean didn't explain his reasoning precisely to Sam, because he was angry just as Sam was. Sam didn't explain the rationality behind his ultimatum. They weren't in a place where they were going to engage in that kind of conversation, so it's not surprising. I see no need to assign the worst case scenario, he's-the-worst- brother-EVER motivations behind that to either Sam or Dean, but to each their own.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-21 07:52
Quote:
In context, Sam and Dean were both pretty angry and defensive at this point, weren't they? .....

The point is, as so many fans have stated, if we're waiting for long, drawn out conversations and explanations from the boys, we're probably going to be here until rapture, if you'll forgive the expression. No, Dean didn't explain his reasoning precisely to Sam, because he was angry just as Sam was. Sam didn't explain the rationality behind his ultimatum. They weren't in a place where they were going to engage in that kind of conversation, so it's not surprising. I see no need to assign the worst case scenario, he's-the-worst-brother-EVER motivations behind that to either Sam or Dean, but to each their own.
Yup, emmau, I don't believe that one brother is better (or worse) than the other, they both have their good and bad points and I want to hug and/or strangle them both at times for their behaviour.

My way of looking at it is this: after only one year of trying to reconnect with each other and to repair their wonky relationship, after 4 years of not seeing each other (and following on from a very dysfunctional upbringing), the Winchester brothers have had years in which their relationship has been under serious strain (and strongly influenced negatively by lots of external actors who want to twist their behaviour and who want to make them hate each other). Currently, as I'm reading things, both Sam and Dean are behaving badly towards each other this season and, to me, it seems to stem from anger and repressed feelings about each other (and the things that life has thrown at them both). I agree with you, that if we could see them just bloody talk to each other (ideally without the sniping and button pushing but, hey, they're siblings raised by a non-communicati ve, macho, father, so button-pushing and sniping seems par for the course with them when they're angry) then perhaps their issues could be aired and their relationship set on the road to repair. I know I'm watching SPN, and that it's never going to be rainbows and bunny rabbits every week, but I'm a bit fed up of the constant, grinding misery and anger between the Winchester siblings that we've seen since S4.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2013-01-26 18:19
I am jumping into the conversation here again because I agree that both brothers are human.

Sending the message was a plan b, life saving, dick move. Does someone have the wording of the text? My recollection of it was: I need you now. Come quickly.
It looks to me like Dean thought he was sending a booty call text; and fancy that! Sam done got him a little something something. I think Dean was astonished by Sam's reaction and apologized.
Of course he was saving Sam. Benny is the most badass vamp on the planet because of purgatory. Dean always saves Sam. However this season I think he is finally voicing to Sam how he feels about Sam's actions instead of swallowing his feelings.

If I were Dean, I would want Sam to apologize for not looking because it hurt Dean. Dean is also hurt by Sam's lack of trust. As a viewer, I am appalled that Sam left town without making sure Dean was okay; last Sam saw him Dean was bleeding from a head wound, unconscious and restrained. I think an apology is in order. During the 12 hour drive he might have called Martin to apologize. The fact that he only sees how Dean's actions affect him is the definition of selfish and narcissism.
now I see my brother once a year if lucky. I don't usually bother to tell him about the friends I made since I last saw him. I don't think Dean was keeping Benny a secret. If he was he wouldn't have sent his location. At any rate, I cannot see the logic that because Dean didn't tell him straight away Sam has reason to put him down.

I really liked Benny and loved the relationship that he and Dean have. They are friends, comrades and equals. It was telling that Dean could kill andrea in front of Benny because he knew that Benny wouldn't want a killing monster to live, even if she was the life changing love of his life. Folks andrea is the amy comparison, not Benny. Benny is Dean's brother in arms, and the brother birthed from his arm. We are meant to see him as a mirror to Sam. He is the brother Dean has always wanted, who treats him with kindness and respect. Doesn't mean that he doesn't love the brother that he has.

Dean and Benny look noble and mature to me because they can admit when they make mistakes, and are fully aware of their weaknesses. I can admire both of them for this, like I can admire Garth for trying to fill Bobby's shoes. These are men that don't run away, which makes them heroes in my book.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-26 19:14
The text read

FROM: AMELIA RICHARDSON
?Sam, I need your help
Come quick


which is not a booty call to me. It is an "I'm in danger" text.

I do feel the need to point out that for all the Benny friendship that is being mourned, Dean was never the one to reach out to Benny, it was always Benny calling Dean. Dean did not even know that Benny had a phone in We Need to Talk About Kevin. Benny called Dean for help in Blood Brothers and in Torn and Frayed. Dean did let Benny know he was coming in Citizen Fang when he was coming to ask him about the murders, but Dean hasn't been shown as wanting to continue the friendship topside.

I do agree that Sam didn't contact Amelia either, but at least for him we know that he left so Amelia could make decisions about Don without Sam being in the picture and we know that Sam was looking into her current life "concerned not stalking" and his flashbacks revolved around his caring for her. Dean's flashbacks were as much about Purgatory and the purity of fighting than Benny himself.

I'm not saying that Dean and Benny weren't friends, I'm just saying that Dean gave no demonstration that he wanted or needed to maintain the friendship with Benny, unlike his friendship with Cas, which Dean works to maintain.
E
# E 2013-01-17 19:49
IMO, the fact that Sam left Martin "without backup and without any word that you've left at all" is on Dean. It's called being manipulated.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 15:11
I wouldnt say all on Dean's manipulation, Martin was a grown man and could make his own choices. From what I've seen of other hunters on the show they are pretty much all like Martin. Travis used the wife of a monster to get said monster in Metamorphosis and ended up praying the price. There are other examples too of where hunters have done whatever they felt necessary to get a job done, they seem to be a law unto themselves when they're hunting monsters. Would you say any of them were crazy? Or are all hunters crazy? Martin did what any hunter would do he took the risk himself in order to do his job. Not every hunter is as shades of grey as Sam and Dean.
E
# E 2013-01-18 18:48
Sorry Hades, this was in response to another post up above. I was disagreeing with Chris_J's statement that Martin's actions were all Sam's fault. I guess it got so separated from the original post, that it's lost it's connection and meaning. :o
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-17 16:13
I agree with you Chris, I think that Dean was being honest here. Admitting that you are jealous for a start isn't easy to do. So why then go and lie about his wanting Sam to be the happy one. No, Dean was being upfront and honest here.

I think Dean is long past convincing Sam to stay anymore, I just don't get how Dean can be seen in a bad light here. Neither brother was giving anything away. But what I do know is that Dean said goodbye to Benny before he knew what Sam's decision was, that has to count for something
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-17 23:44
Quote:
Also, ‘at least one of us should be happy’. Ah, what? Okay, so was Dean saying that he wants Sam to be happy and he knows that he’s not happy in hunting or is he saying that if Sam is happy then he (Dean) won’t be because he knows that for Sam to be happy he needs to be out of hunting but if Sam is out of hunting then he (Dean) can’t be happy and he wants Sam to know that he can’t be happy if Sam isn’t hunting? (Yes, it was confusing to write as well, okay....)
Considering Dean's tone and his words: "I was jealous; I could never separate myself from the job like you could" - when he says "at least one of us should be happy," he is speaking to the fact that he himself [Dean] is not happy, and this friction with Sam was rooted [at least partially] in his resentment of how easy it is for Sam to walk away from hunting. As for Dean, he knows he's stuck. He can't separate his self-worth from the job. He can't walk away if he wanted to. But he [finally!] realized how unfair it was to try and keep Sam from a good thing, and gave him his blessing to leave, so to speak.

Quote:
I’m really missing empathic Dean. I mean, really missing him. I’m finding his flippancy this season to be less endearing and more off-putting.
Yes, I'm feeling the same.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 04:30
Quote:
But, her and Sam sleeping together raises an interesting moral quandary: Amelia’s still married to Don, so technically they’re adulterers now? Sam never struck me as the type! Now, technically, Don had been alive the whole time, but neither of them knew that until he turned up again. But they both knew he was alive this time. But Don also said that it was Amelia’s choice to make, so did that give them free rein?
To me it's just more of the trash Sam's character mode that has been going on since episode one. Now Sam is not only a sucky brother for not looking for Dean, he is an adulterer who slept with the wife of a man who served our country and who Amelia describes as a good man. So Sam loses points again. Been there, done that in season 4 and 6 so I'm really getting sick of Sam is a crappy person, TBH.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-17 06:06
First of all, I so didn not enjoy this episode.
I fucking bawled my fucking eyes out... several times.
by the end, I was surrounded by a mountain of tissues, softly sobbing, whimpering: "Oh Baby, why?" Over and over again.

Which is btw, exactly the reason, I don´t rewatch "Swan Song"

On the other hand, I really liked it.
It ripped my heart out, stomped over it a few times and threw it away for good measure, but there was some real goodness in there.

Dean´s coming back.. in baby steps.
Sam´s coming back.. in baby steps.
Cas being badass.
Cas being heartbroken ... ( I kid you not, If I never ever again see him holding the body of a dead angel in his arms, looking broken and shell shocked, it´s way too soon!)
The thing with the baby (OH GOSH! How cute was that)
Sam and Dean fighting Team!
Yeah!
You really could feel, this episode was written by a woman!
The boys made sense!
Dean and Sam getting closer together again.
And being truly alone again, but not the Sam "you have no one alone" but the "It´s only the two of you" alone.

*sniff*

What I liked, was that Amelia actually... she was human. She was true and real.
And I didn´t mind them sleeping together at all.
People do the most stupid things, when they´re in love.
But that might be a cultural difference.
She´s content with Don. She´s not happy. SHE´s CONTENT.
She wants Sam. And yes, Sam wants her. He didn´t just jump at being a team with Dean again.
He went and thought about did. Did what he does best, think everything through.
Dean was ready to storm Crowley´s hideout ALONE!
Sam with Amelia? Well, it would paint a big target on her back.
He thought it through. And he stayed.
And Dean... being all mature (except when he´s not... he can be so TACTLESS sometimes. That scene in the hospital was a true bitchface moment. Only, no Sam, no true Bitchface)

But... here it comes... cover your ears... because...

SAMANDRIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!
Oh god, Cas telling him, you´re safe now.
How he carefully cupped his face. You did just get the big brother vibe...
And then Naomi made him kill the baby Angel.
I mean.
Oh God... crying again... here we go again...


I speculated, that not Crowley but Naomi was the big bad this season. Guess I was right.
Man, what a bitch.
And Cas vanishing off the street in the beginning?
That wasn´t he was not powerful enough, that was Naomi snatching him and implanting something in his head.

Maybe Castiel´s talk of free will DID have an effect...
And someone had to do something against it.
SOmeone had to bring the Angels back under control, so they wouldn´t follow him?
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-01-17 13:34
I look at it totally differently. I don't see Sam as a bad person for that little slip. Hell, that's human nature. Happens to ex'es all the time. Their situation is complicated. Also, he really loves her. which doesn't happen for him.He was remorseful BECAUSE of Don. Knew it was a mistake.
I feel more for Sam this season than I have in years.They are giving Jared some great scripts in my opinion. I love how mature they have made Sam this season. He pushes Dean back, but in good ways.I don't see Sam as bad at all any more
Ale
# Ale 2013-01-17 13:46
Agreed!
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-17 04:54
Finally I can see what Sam sees in Amelia, a little 'something' came through in this ep.
emmanuel
# emmanuel 2013-01-17 06:06
Hi everyone! First of all, sorry for my English. I´m sure I´m gonna make a lot of mistakes as I usually do, so sorry for that.
I don´t really know what to think about this episode, I´have mixed feelings. Here are my thoughts:

GOOD THINGS:
1.The boys chose each other, I´m so happy for that. Sam did´t have to stay with Dean, Dean pretty much gave his blessing to him. But Sam chose stay with his brother and I don´t think it´s only because of duty. He put his brother before everything else. Welcome back Sammy, we missed you.
2. Dean finally accepted that Sam doesn´t want to hunt and that Amelia means something to him. In the end, he told Sam he should come back to Amelia.
3. Dean put his brother before Benny. I never doubted he´d do otherwise. Even with his faults and his trusts issues towards him, it´s his little brother who he wants to be with.
4. This is a episode where Castiel has an important role and Sam hasn´t been shoved to the background. About time. So glad Cas brought him back.
5. I really, really want this to be the end of Sam/Amelia soap opera. I hope that if we see her again it was in a flashback where Sam explains why he didn´t look for Dean or in a episode where she ends up dead for good. I don´t like the character at all, I don´t like her not honest relationship with Sam, I don´t even like the actress and her lack of chemestry with Jared (it got better, but not good enough)

BAD THINGS:
1. Even if I don´t think it´s true, it seems like they are back together for the job. I really was expecting they worked out their issues, but I´ve got the feeling that nothing really was resolved between them. This is a step forward, but the slow burn is frustrating me to no end. They are still bitching at each other like children. I´m not seeing that "maturity" JC talked about at all. Very dissapointed.
2. As I feared, Sam didn´t say anything to Amelia about his hunting life. I thought Sam learned his lesson from what happened to Jessica: Sam felt guilty because bad things were after him and she got in the middle. Amelia deserved to know, it was her choice, she should have decided if it was worth to risk her life for Sam, bacause sooner or later some creature is gonna come after him. Not matter if he´s retired, he´s Sam Winchester and he has pissed off a lot of evil motherfuckers that may use Amelia as a way to hurt him or as a way to force him to do something, Like what happened to Jess, Lisa and Ben. There´s not turning back from that and I thought he already knew this, as he as stated in several occasions through the years (remember the speech he gave to not!Adam?). I assume if Amelia didn´t know about the supernatural, Sam never put a salt line or a devil´s trap in their house. Really, WHO IS THIS SAM?
3. I´ve got the feeling that the episodes are even more boring than in season 7. Even when they are supposed to be important for the develop of the storyline I´m not so thrilled about it. The only thing interesting is when they boys talk about their issues and we are getting very little of that. The pacing not only in the season, but in the episodes as well is slow and nothing really relevant happens. I used to put Supernatural writting to the level of Dexter or Breaking Bad, but the writting hasn´t been that good for a season and a half. In this episode Cas wanted to save Alfie, he succeded just to kill him afterwards and the boys chose to be together without a good explanation. Is that all?? Why not giving us a mind-blowing episode after another like they used to?
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 07:28
Emmanuel, I'm glad it's not just me who is finding this season's episodes even more boring than S7. As you said, everything is slow and nothing really happens.

I was bored by Alfie's torture, and I must say his screaming got on my nerves. My sister and I were like, "Just kill him already." I also didn't understand how a demon managed to capture an angel. Should a demon be capable of torturing an angel?

Anyway, the only interesting parts - to me of course - were the parts re: Sam/Dean. It was nice to hear Sam express himself. I wish he'd speak more about his problem with Benny.

But for the most part, I was unengaged. This tablet story isn't doing it for me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 07:59
Table for 3! I too am unengaged by the tablet story thus far. Maybe because the brother angst has overshadowed it, but as of now it just doesn't seem that important to me. Since Carver said the mytharc started this season could carry the show for 3 years, I hope it will start to pick up. When even Crowley bores me, something is off for me.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 07:20
I didn't like this episode, or rather, I thought the episode was all right. I found it slightly boring except for the Sam/Dean stuff. I wasn't engaged in the mytharc at all. I'm just not interested in this tablet story.

I am happy that - for the moment at least - Amelia's gone. I honestly hope she doesn't return. Her relationship with Sam was terminally boring. Plus, Sam would be a jerk to show up months later after they've resolved the tablet story to bug Amelia.

My sister and I laughed at the depth of emotion Sam expressed for Amelia. I saw no love, no passion, no anything btw Sam and Amelia. They are like anti-chemistry, IMO. My sister thought Amelia was giving Jared something but Jared wasn't throwing anything back. For me, their relationship wasn't developed enough that I cared what happened with them. I definitely wasn't rooting for them as Carver hoped.

The Sam/Amelia relationship was a huge waste of time, IMO. It didn't progress Sam or develop his character any. It was pointless filler AFAIC.

I liked the reunion, and that's probably because I've found this
season's conflict to be inorganic and contrived. Carver wanted conflict for the sake of conflict, IMO. I will never believe that the real Sam Winchester wouldn't have investigated his brother's disappearance. And until they write dialogue for Sam, I'm at a huge loss re: his problem with Benny.

I felt bad for Castiel and Benny! I'm not sure what Benny needed but Dean did him wrong. I'm also confused as to why Benny just doesn't feed from animals.

The adultery issue. I'm pretty sure Don's "death" nullified Amelia's marriage. She may or may not have filed something with the court to end the marriage due to her husband's death. I'm not sure how long she would have to wait to file though. so, Sam may not be an adulterer; he may just be a cheater. Haha!
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 08:04
Quote:
I'm not sure what Benny needed but Dean did him wrong. I'm also confused as to why Benny just doesn't feed from animals.
Vampires have always been shown in nests. Luthor, Lenore, the vamps in Live Free or Twi Hard all lived in groups. The episode with Gordon was based on the idea that the vampire had lost his family and was trying to recreate a new one. My feeling is that vampires have an inbred need to be part of a group social structure. Benny needs Dean to be with, since his nest is dead, IMHO. If I'm right, then Benny may become an issue not only because he falls off the wagon, but because he may feel the need to start his own family.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 17:34
Percy, that's a really interesting point. Hadn't thought about that. Wasn't the vamp they killed in the last episode trying to start a nest? I think Benny mentioned that. Benny should try to find like-minded vamps (i.e., vegetarians) out there. I'm sure there are others.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-17 09:08
Quote:
I didn't like this episode, or rather, I thought the episode was all right. I found it slightly boring except for the Sam/Dean stuff. I wasn't engaged in the mytharc at all. I'm just not interested in this tablet story.

I am happy that - for the moment at least - Amelia's gone. I honestly hope she doesn't return. Her relationship with Sam was terminally boring. Plus, Sam would be a jerk to show up months later after they've resolved the tablet story to bug Amelia.

My sister and I laughed at the depth of emotion Sam expressed for Amelia. I saw no love, no passion, no anything btw Sam and Amelia. They are like anti-chemistry, IMO. My sister thought Amelia was giving Jared something but Jared wasn't throwing anything back. For me, their relationship wasn't developed enough that I cared what happened with them. I definitely wasn't rooting for them as Carver hoped.

The Sam/Amelia relationship was a huge waste of time, IMO. It didn't progress Sam or develop his character any. It was pointless filler AFAIC.

I liked the reunion, and that's probably because I've found this
season's conflict to be inorganic and contrived. Carver wanted conflict for the sake of conflict, IMO. I will never believe that the real Sam Winchester wouldn't have investigated his brother's disappearance. And until they write dialogue for Sam, I'm at a huge loss re: his problem with Benny.

I felt bad for Castiel and Benny! I'm not sure what Benny needed but Dean did him wrong. I'm also confused as to why Benny just doesn't feed from animals.

The adultery issue. I'm pretty sure Don's "death" nullified Amelia's marriage. She may or may not have filed something with the court to end the marriage due to her husband's death. I'm not sure how long she would have to wait to file though. so, Sam may not be an adulterer; he may just be a cheater. Haha!
Lala, you summed up really well how I felt about things in this episode.

I have a slight difference in my thoughts on two things:

1. I believe Sam's antipathy towards Benny is more a contrived than a genuine characterisatio n - yes, over the years, Sam has learned not to trust the human-looking monsters, however, Sam generally has more empathy for the plight of certain monsters and people than we're seeing in this season. So, unless Sam tells us explicitly why he dislikes Benny so much (i.e. he's jealous of Dean's strong feelings of loyalty towards the Vampire, or Sam feels bad because Benny got Dean out of Purgatory when Sam failed on this issue, or he feels that Benny is dangerous in a specific way) I'm putting Sam's behaviour down to poor writing and characterisatio n from the writers.

2. I don't like the idea of Sam (or Dean for that matter) being an adulterer or cheater or being in a love-triangle. It's a disservice to the character of Sam who, even when he's messing up spectacularly in S4, tries to do the right thing and to be as moral as the situation allows. Sam cheating with Amelia (on her returned husband to whom she made a commitment) is not a decent thing to do. Plus, love triangles are soap opera material and not interesting in Supernatural, so I hope that the Sam and Amelia thing is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!

I'm hoping that the remainder of this season has no Amelia and that the Winchester brothers' relationship gets the development, care, and growth that it needs to get them back to the point where they like and love each other again.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-17 11:46
Quote:
...(i.e. he's jealous of Dean's strong feelings of loyalty towards the Vampire, or Sam feels bad because Benny got Dean out of Purgatory when Sam failed on this issue, or he feels that Benny is dangerous in a specific way)


Actually I support this theory. I can get behind this idea. Oh, Sammy.

Quote:
I'm putting Sam's behaviour down to poor writing and characterisation from the writers.
The writer's been been doing that from the beginning of this season. What with the hot and cold and multiple personality Sam.

Quote:
I don't like the idea of Sam (or Dean for that matter) being an adulterer or cheater or being in a love-triangle. It's a disservice to the character of Sam who, even when he's messing up spectacularly in S4, tries to do the right thing and to be as moral as the situation allows. Sam cheating with Amelia (on her returned husband to whom she made a commitment) is not a decent thing to do. Plus, love triangles are soap opera material and not interesting in Supernatural, so I hope that the Sam and Amelia thing is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!


I can hug you!!!! I very much agree with you in this. :D This whole thing about Amelia is bad from the start. It's like watching a rolling snow ball. Why would the writer even do that??!! It's a waste and has no meaning whatsoever and not depicting the maturioty of Sam's character.

Quote:
I'm hoping that the remainder of this season has no Amelia and that the Winchester brothers' relationship gets the development, care, and growth that it needs to get them back to the point where they like and love each other again.
Yes to this!!!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-17 17:00
Kaj, I'm glad you can accept those potential reasons :-) It just popped into my head today that a possible explanation for Sam being so negative towards Benny could be because Benny got Dean out of Purgatory and Sam didn't. I would like to think that Sam feels something about the fact that he didn't try to rescue Dean but I'm not 100% sure about what Sam might feel about this because the writers have not dealt with that issue in any meaningful way (to my mind). Another explanation (for me) of Sam's behaviour regarding Benny was that in previous years we've seen Sam be very possessive of Dean and we've seen him feel threatened by Dean being close with other people - perhaps this trait of Sam's character could be a potential reason for Sam disliking Benny.

However, to be honest, unless Sam explicitly tells us, what his thinking is about Benny, we'll just be left guessing. The writers don't seem very keen on examining Sam's inner life in huge detail (mind you, in recent years, the SPN writers have not been as keen as they used to be on emotional analysis of either of the Winchesters :sigh: ).

I agree with you about the Amelia relationship & storyline being a rolling snowball of disaster from the start. Every aspect of Sam being with Amelia has always struck me as extremely out of character in comparison to the Sam we've seen in past years. I have always thought of Sam and Dean as living outlaw lives but having their own strong sense of morality, and so seeing Sam sleeping with a married woman doesn't sit well with me and my understanding of the Winchesters' Code of Honour.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 18:11
Quote:
in previous years we've seen Sam be very possessive of Dean and we've seen him feel threatened by Dean being close with other people
We are definitely watching different shows. The Supernatural I watched had Sam encourage Dean to hook up with Cassie again and hoped they might work it out. Didn't express any problems with any of the women Dean has been with. The Sam I watched was GLAD the angels rescued Dean and did not say anything possessive about Cas's relationship with Dean. Sam helped protect Anna when they thought she was human and he didn't say anything when Dean got together with her. The Sam I saw watched Dean relive his happy memories with Mary, memories that Sam never was and never could be part of. Sam sent Dean to Lisa and when he got his soul back he tried to find out what went wrong and how to repair the relationship. Sam forgave Cas AFTER CAS BROKE HIS WALL AND MADE SAM INSANE, and reminded Dean that Cas was his friend, even though Cas rarely acted like a friend to Sam. Sam didn't resent the idea that Bobby liked Dean best. The only time Sam had any problem with a relationship Dean had was with John and that was mostly because John came in criticizing Dean for all he was worth, plus Sam had his own issues with John.

I'm trying to come up with a time when Sam was possessive of Dean and I'm drawing a blank. Sam's big thing has been his independence and that has meant being willing to leave Dean and let Dean have other friends.

This is something we see very differently.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-17 18:47
I agree with percysowner on this. I don't remember any instances of Sam being possessive. He was a little put off by his possible friendship with Gordon a long time ago. But it turns out he was absolutely right in trying to nip that one in the bub! Sam was usually supportive of Dean's friendships. Ok maybe he rolled his eyes a time or two about some of the women but who didn't?
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-18 06:42
Percysowner, on this issue we have different takes on the character and that makes perfect sense, given that we're different people :-) However, while I understand that you want to argue your case, I feel like the way you responded to my comment is dismissive of my opinion and my feelings :sad:
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-18 08:57
I was not intending to make you feel dismissed. You had stated Quote:
in previous years we've seen Sam be very possessive of Dean and we've seen him feel threatened by Dean being close with other people


I disagree, however I felt just saying I'm right, you're wrong seemed very dismissive, so I provided examples of why I think that Sam has been the opposite of dismissive. I am more than willing to listen to what you think Sam has done that has been possessive, because, as I said, I couldn't remember incidents that supported that, IMHO. I'm sorry you felt hurt by my response.

If you had problems with the "we are different shows" remark, I'm sorry. It comes from an article in fandom about how you and your friends are watching different shows. The idea is we all see a show through our own experiences and lenses. I use it occasionally when someone's view is so diametrically opposed to mine that I personally can't remember any evidence to support it. If that offended you I apologize and I will try not to use that phrase again. I will not stop providing reasons for why I see something differently than other posters. If I disagree, I feel it important to provide examples and not just declare that my position is right. Just look at it as a character flaw on my part.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-18 11:00
Thanks for explaining, percysowner - I feel better now :-) It was the phrase "we are watching different shows" that made me feel bad. For some reason, it just really bothered me and made me feel as though you thought I was saying something stupid :oops:

As for the info in your response: I'm all in favour of providing examples to support your case in a debate and I had absolutely no problem with reading your examples. I think you're correct that it's best to show why one thinks the way one does instead of just saying 'I'm right, you're wrong". I don't think I'm always right on an issue and I'm happy to be persuaded to change my mind on a topic, that's why I find this website so interesting 8)

Unfortunately, right at this moment in time, I don't have time to provide a detailed answer in support of my take on Sam (and Dean) sorry, but, to give a quick answer: I've always seen Dean and Sam as possessive of each other. For me it's part of that intense dysfunctional relationship they have and an element of their isolated, outlaw upbringing. I think that most of the time they are happy to see each other have relationships with other people (we've seen them push each other towards women in various episodes) because (in my mind) the brothers see those relationships as temporary or not as important as their own relationship with each other. However, my reading of the Winchesters is that I think both Dean and Sam react possessively, or strongly, if they feel that the other brother might be forming a relationship in which they could be displaced, from their important role in their brother's life, or if they feel that their place in each other's life could be lessened. So, I was thinking that this might be behind why Sam is reacting so negatively to Benny.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 17:49
Ciar - we don't disagree at all. Actually, your first point is one I've been making since the penny episode when Dean tried to murder Sam.

Nothing about Sam's problem w/Benny rings true to me. I don't even understand his issue w/Benny, and that's b/c the writers have failed to give him a POV. Sam's lines have been restricted to "we all know how that turned out" when it comes to Benny. Okay . . . and? Why don't you expand on that thought Sam?

I'm problem w/Sam's insta-hate of Benny is that it doesn't jive w/his history. Sam is the FIRST to have empathy for monsters. He's the first to give them the benefit of the doubt. Heck, he self-identifies (or at least he used to) as a freak/monster. So, what's his beef w/Benny?

For the most part, Benny hasn't bothered Dean. Benny has been minding his business. And I know Sam is still willing to give a monster the benefit of the doubt b/c there was the werewolf girl this year and Amy last year. Plus, Sam has heard of non-human blood drinking vamps before. His problem w/Benny has always seemed pretty contrived and false to me. It just doesn't feel real.

To your second point, I do think it was wrong of Sam to sleep w/Amelia. It was not the moral thing to do.

** As a sidenote - I do wonder if she is still considered legally married despite her husband's re-emergence among the living. If a death certificate was issued, then Don should have been declared dead in the eyes of the law, leaving her free to re-marry. He probably has to complete paperwork, etc. re: his now "alive" status. **

But that issue aside - I was not, personally, disgusted with Sam for sleeping w/Amelia. Even though it is not something I would do or advocate in real life, I don't much care about it on tv shows/movies. I realize it happens b/c it is considered dramatic and entertaining. Admittedly, I've watched lots of soap operas in my life, so I'm used to seeing cheating/adulte ry/spouses returning from the dead/etc.

I guess I thought Amelia was more in the wrong b/c she sought out Sam. He clearly left the bar and went to a motel room. She followed him. I guess she's still married to Don. She has, IMO, an obligation to not disrespect her marriage but that's what she did by sleeping w/Sam.

I thought it was good to show that Sam felt really guilty about what he'd done. He is human. It was not the best decision he's ever made. I cannot disagree w/that.

I'm glad Sam left Amelia though b/c she is a confused woman. She either wants her relationship w/Don to work or she doesn't. If she doesn't want to be w/Don, then she needs to divorce him regardless of what happens w/Sam or any other man.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 00:52
Quote:

I'm glad Sam left Amelia though b/c she is a confused woman. She either wants her relationship w/Don to work or she doesn't. If she doesn't want to be w/Don, then she needs to divorce him regardless of what happens w/Sam or any other man.
I agree. She is written as a conniving and taking advantage of the men who loves her. There's no guarantee that she will be loyal and not sleeping behind Sam's back when things get though between them (If they do get together) and if she found someone else better. Remmeber she's only content with Sam not deliriously happy and In Love.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-17 11:54
Agree with everything you said above, lala. Except for Benny. I think it's time to sever ties with Benny because I'm still waiting what he's really up to topside. Now, that he knows that Dean will not check on him, he can go do whatever he is sent to do by the one who told him about the Purgatory gate.

Benny said that someone told him about the Purgatory gate. Dean questioned him only once. He seems forget about that thing now. That's why I don't fully trust Benny. The brother really don't have ally here. Cas is manipulated and Benny is keeping a secret about Dean's way of escaping Purgatory. And Kevin reads really slow. Basically, they are on their own.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-01-17 15:22
Quote:
I'm not sure what Benny needed but Dean did him wrong.
I do feel for Benny, but what choice did Dean really have? Dean wanted Sam to keep hunting with him and Sam wanted Dean to sever all ties with Benny. I still don't know why Sam is so obsessed with Benny especially because he's not hanging around Dean in general. I think both Dean and Benny have made it clear that they're just leading their own lives (for the most part). Benny wasn't stalking Dean or anything, so, IDK.


Quote:
They are like anti-chemistry, IMO.
LOL. Yeah unfortunately this is the way I feel as well. The Sam/Amelia storyline really sucked the life out of this season, IMO.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2013-01-19 18:39
I think severing ties also protects Benny from Sam's vendetta, and Sam from Benny defending himself.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2013-01-17 07:51
I loved this episode... I was on the edge of my seat throughout particularly when Castiel was having his panicked flashbacks - who is this Naomi & what did she do to him? Misha did a great job, as usual.

Like # Fluffy2107, I needed a box of tissues for much of the episode... it was such an emotional roller coaster. I really love that Sam & Dean are back together hunting (even if it is only baby steps and early days)... I think Dean's acceptance that Sam might leave (and his blessing) is what swayed Sam to stay.

On the other hand, I was so sad for both Benny & Amelia. I think Benny really needs Dean to help him stay on track... I'm fearful about what will happen to him now. And I was upset for Amelia, choosing Sam and going to an empty hotel room... heartbreaking.

Although I wasn't sold on the Sam/Amelia relationship (due to a lack of chemistry early on), I did feel the connection in the last couple of episodes. Maybe there will be more, but in some ways I hope that chapter is closed.

I'm really looking forward to next week's episode with Felicia Day :lol:
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 08:44
I disagree with that Sam decided to stay because of Dean's acceptance of his wanting out. Sam had a legit reason to stay and he stated so, he stayed because of all the crap with Cas, Kevin, the hell gate. Realistically he knew that he couldnt be with Amelia and be worried about what was going down in the world. He accepted that he had a responsibility to all the mentioned parties. I really dont think Dean's approval would have swayed him either way but Dean's 'you're either all in ot all out would have helped Sam come to the conclusion he did. Dean's approval would have been nice I image but not the be all and end all. Also Sam probably learned from Dean's season 6 mess that you cant have one foot in both worlds without it ending in disaster.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-01-17 08:26
I liked the episode. I'm glad that Sam chose to stay with Dean, although it is very sad that both brothers are with each other basically just for the job now. That needs to change, and soon. Dean telling Benny that he can no longer be there for him was harsh, but yes, Dean told Sam that if he stayed, it was with both feet in, so he in essence had to do the same. But, man, Benny is going to fall off that wagon, it's just a matter of time. As for the Amelia storyline, glad to see that end, although I didn't hate the whole Sam/Amelia thing, I surely didn't want to see all season long. That being said, I thought it was well done. She really truly loved Sam, but I think it will be better for her to stay with her husband, no demons coming after him...we hope!

Now about Cas. I feel unbelievably sad about what is happening to him. On top of being suicidal, he is being manipulated by the Queen Bitch of Heaven! He finally saves one of his fellow angels, and then he is made to kill him? I hope Sam & Dean are going to be there for him when the s*** hits the fan, because he is going to need the only two friends that he has. How sweet of him for curing that baby though, he had a nice little smile for that one. He's trying so hard to do good, but he's being used like a puppet.

I did have one laugh out loud moment though. When Dean & Cass are in the cabin, and Dean opens his laptop and BustyAsianBeaut ys.com comes up, he slammed it down so fast. Dudes do not watch porn together, and they don't talk about it! :lol:
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 08:48
Dean ditching Benny was a smart move in that if Benny does fall of the wagon and we all know he will, Dean will be absolved of any responsibility. It was quite obvious that Benny was about to nose dive, I'm sure Dean sensed it to given that Benny had already killed Martin, maybe Dean decided to sever all ties before he could be dissapointed in Benny?
BeccaB
# BeccaB 2013-01-17 09:02
Hey Ardeospina, welcome back. Boy was that a long hiatus. Even when filled with top 15s, People Choice, and such to keep our minds occupied and alive with all things SPN.

I liked your review - direct and to-the-point. However, I have to say that I really liked this episode. It was kinda like a Christmas present that was opened with all the wrapping paper left laying around. Then slowly rewrapping it one edge at a time till it was rewrapped. Not as neat and pretty as it was originally, but ready again to be peeled corner by corner to reveal what’s inside. Maybe the same gift but maybe something new and exciting was slipped inside while we were occupied elsewhere.

Poor Sam, the girl and life of his dreams are gone maybe never to return. Poor Cas, penance doesn’t seem to be going the way he wants. Heaven and Hell using the same technique to get info!! What? no waterboarding. Poor Benny, down to his last pint with no one to turn to; his sponsor has left the building. Only Dean seems to have what he wants. His brother by his side, hunting. (Be careful Dean what you wish for. The last time you wished to not be able to feel a thing didn’t work so well.)

Maybe this is too simplistic a description of how I saw the episode, but that’s all the words I have in my head that can make to through my fingers.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2013-01-17 09:12
OK now... did some talking with co-workers. Handed out some useful advice concerning lots of tissues, for those who are going to watch the episode tonight... and I think I finally came through.
No, who am I kidding, I didn´t, but so what.
That image of Castiel craddling Samandriels body will stay with me for a loooooooooooooo ooong time.
BUT: At least I´m able to speculate again. Which is a good sign!

So, what do we have here:
- Naomi is secretly manipulating the angels or certain angels via stuff, she has planted into their heads. Real or "reprogrammed"
Samandriel remembered, thanks to Crowley
and as soon, as he mention it to Castiel, she had him kill him.

- Samandriel looked as if Cas was supposed to know, who Naomi is

- when did Naomi do this to Cas? before Purgatory? directly after Purgatory? at a later point?

- Crowley speaks Enochian? Why does Crowley speak Enochian?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 09:15
Quote:
Crowley speaks Enochian? Why does Crowley speak Enochian
That was my one big question. I've always thought Crowley was more than he seemed and this just reinforces that opinion.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2013-01-18 02:26
Maybe I'm just being too practical here, but didn't Ash say that he was fluent in Enochian in DSOTM? Of course, obviously he was in Heaven and it seemed constantly around angels, but if he could learn it, to me it doesn't seem completely out of the realm of possibilty that Crowley might have just decided to learn, being that he's been on opposite sides to plenty of angels? Don't ask me how, but I'm sure the King of Hell has plenty of resources.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-18 07:35
Thats what I was thinking too. It's ancient, but I never got the impression that it was unlearnable by non angels.
BeccaB
# BeccaB 2013-01-17 09:20
Good point Fluffy2107. Why does Crowley know Enochian. Maybe he's more than just an overachieving crossroads demon made by Lucifier. A fallen angel perhaps? There has seemed to be more to Crowley than what meets the eye.
E
# E 2013-01-17 20:14
Do you suppose that there is any way that Lucifer could have gotten out of the cage and into Crowley?
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-17 20:58
Hmm-interesting idea. That is food for thought and a crazy twist. But didn't Crowley inhabit Mrs. Tran for a bit and don't angels need an invitation to do so? Maybe the rules change if you are in a demon first.
E
# E 2013-01-18 07:47
Yeah, it's probably not Lucifer.... just an idea that struck. I love fanwanking! We will probably get some kind of reveal though, that Crowley is a fallen angel of some sort... I looked it up on line, there are quite a few; some almost as nasty and powerful as Lucifer himself.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-17 09:45
I actually was quite dissatisfied with this one.

First, I didn't like the torture scenes, and was disgruntled at the comparison of angels to robots. Just...really??

Second, the existence of an Angel tablet was no surprise, and even expected.

Third, Amelia's ultimatum: on the one hand, I'm glad we got more of Sam's thoughts on this - but we knew what Sam would choose to do, and that made it all quite useless. And yes, it did feel contrived.

Fourth, I was utterly infuriated by Dean's choice to just cut Benny off, especially considering all they've been through, and the fact that Benny has no other family/friends. That decision is going to come back to bite him. I just really thought it was stupid and unnecessary.
And then, and THEN, they have the boys sit on the couch together going through a similar routine - it felt like something thrown together to make some fans happy - a quick, cowardly fix. That's not good story writing.

The only remotely engaging about this episode IMO was Cas's storyline, and again - learning Cas is being controlled by some heavenly force? No surprise.

No surprises. Nothing new. Not great writing, IMO.

Sorry. :/
Ale
# Ale 2013-01-17 10:18
I believe Dean's decision to let go of Benny is not only related to Sam and his decision to leave Amelia. As Kevin said about why his mum was not there, Benny was a distraction - Dean wouldn't be able to focus on the gates of hell job if he had to run to rescue Benny every time he was is trouble, since it seems to be almost full time job (taking care of little Sammy - not today Sam, I have to add - was the only full time job we love Dean for and have our support). I think it shows some maturity of Dean, since he can't be responsable for everybody, or their choices. We all love and support our friends, but we also have to have or own lives.

Same with Sam - Amelia is a distraction. He can't do the job and be with her at the same time.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-17 10:57
Ale - thank you. I think you caught something I missed; and looking back, I definitely see the significance of that moment/convo with Kevin and how it relates to Dean and Sam and their "distractions."

I see what they're doing - after this, Sam and Dean are supposed to be "in the zone" - more focused and united in their offensive goal of closing the gates of Hell. I just think it could have been done better - like the quality of this episode hasn't been up to par with what I've come to expect from this season.

But thanks again - I think you hit the nail on the head.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-17 11:03
It also makes sense in terms of the eye-opener Dean had just a few episodes ago, where Cas informed him that he can't save everyone.

Dean isn't responsible for Benny - Benny is. And if Benny chooses to feed, that's unfortunate, but it's on him.

We did see Dean "letting go" of his tight grip on his relationships in this episode. He basically gave Sam his blessing to leave hunting, but told him he had to be realistic about it - either he's all in or all out. I did like that. And Sam clarified - "you didn't ask me to trust you; you asked me to trust Benny, and I can't do that." I liked that, too. So...some good things in this episode.

Perhaps I'll give it a second watch, see if it grows on me more. (Though Samandriel's screaming was a turn-off). :P
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-17 11:34
I think I'll give it a second watch too. Even though what Benny does is on him, I still think in the context of what they have been through that Benny didn't deserve to be given his walking papers. Dean could have told him he just couldn't be there for him at this time, or something, but to just say they were done was not how you a treat friend who fought and had your back for a year, IMO.To say Dean can't save everyone is one thing but to turn your back on a friend is not what Dean would normally do.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-18 08:05
Leah, I agree. I was disappointed by Dean's choice to just cut Benny off completely. And it was very sad, too. :( You're right - that's not what friends do, and I think it was a poor judgment call, even if it logically makes sense on some level (because Benny IS a "distraction" from the Big Hunt now).

However, if Benny does choose to feed - it won't be Dean's fault.

I do think Benny's become like an addict who's reliant on others to keep him clean. That will never last long, because people always, even without intending to, let you down. Dean can't and won't always be able to drop everything to drive to meet Benny and have a convo with him. Benny has to find it within himself to stay on the straight and narrow. He has to want to not kill more than he wants to feed. He has to want it for himself, not just a family member or friend. He's a strong character; he can do it. The question is: will he?
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-18 19:28
Bamboo24, I know it wouldn't be Deans fault. However I am just having trouble getting past the idea that you don't kick a friend when they are down. Putting this off would have been a better idea to me. I understand the logic and the parallels to drug/alcohol addiction. To continue the comparison, when one is trying hard to stay clean and is feeling like they might relapse and they turn to a friend for support it seems cruel to tell them you are done with them. Bad bad timing and I think he owed Benny more than that. I know I am being more emotional than rational about this, but there it is. This will end badly. I think Dean will have to deal with the ramifications and will feel so much worse due to the circumstances. I hope I am wrong and next time Dean runs into Benny it won't be to kill him. Even though I saw this as the inevitable endgame it leaves a bad taste for it to happen after Dean cuts him loose with absolutely no support.
Ale
# Ale 2013-01-17 13:00
Thanks, Bamboo24! Glad to be able to help in a little way, since you all always help me so much with your PVOs.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-01-17 14:30
Well, I hate that Dean cut Benny off that way, but Sam told him he had to do so. That was Sam's ultimatum to Dean .You could see when he was listening to what Kevin said, that he was making up his mind to focus on what really matters. I thought the entire story flowed last night. All the pieces fit so to speak
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 14:43
The thing is Sam didn't keep the ultimatum in place. He came back and left Amelia before knowing Dean had called Benny. He didn't repeat that Dean had to drop Benny. He had to decide if it was hunting or Amelia and he chose hunting with Dean. And he did it believing that Dean would still go to Benny whenever Benny needed him.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-17 16:09
Percy, that was sort of my reading of things too i.e. at the end of this episode Sam has chosen hunting with Dean (I prefer to think of it as he chose Dean over Amelia :-) ) but he does this without knowing that Dean, in order to show how much his relationship with his little brother means to him, has ditched Benny. To me, both brothers took steps to ditch the distractions from their relationship with each other and the things that are distracting them from the Metatron Tablet Mission.

I suppose we could hope that the Brothers Winchester will discuss these big choices in their lives in a sensible manner....and.. ..oh, look, Porky Squadron is doing a flypast overhead LOL Yup, flying pigs are more likely than Sam and Dean opening up to each other in a non-argumentati ve way these days *sigh*
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2013-01-17 20:42
Not necessarily.Wit h 42 minutes, they leave the exposition to a minimum. They don't give us all the brothers dialog. Sometimes you have to fill in the blanks, so to speak. I believe Sam knows Dean called Benny. That look they shared on the couch said it all to me
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 08:59
That look where Sam nods at Dean like he's trying to move past it all and Dean replies with a scowl? No I dfont think Sam did know that Dean had ditched Benny and I dont think it was a condition for Sam comin back in the end either. Sam was back for the hunt and to take responsibility for yet another one of the worlds problems.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 08:55
Exactly Sam was already back with Dean before Dean has cut all ties with Benny, he didnt even know it had happened in the end. So in no way was Sam the reason for Dean cutting Benny out. Dean could have kept being Benny's sponcer and Sam probably would have been none the wiser or he would have learned to live with it because when the fact that he was back with Dean clearly showed that he had decided to just live with it.

It wasnt a condition for Sam sticking around in the end. Being all in or all out was more of a condition than severing ties with Benny.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 17:24
I agree w/Percy. Sam did ask Dean to drop Benny. And guess what? Dean walked out the door. Dean answered Sam's ultimatum w/a resounding "Screw you."

Sam didn't even mention Benny in that last conversation. He left to go decide what to do about Amelia. That's it. He wasn't concerned about Benny, and for all we know, Sam doesn't even know Dean "quit" (haha) Benny.
Ginger
# Ginger 2013-01-17 10:40
Completely dissatisfied with this episode, with Carver, and with the slow pacing and the over-hyped, dysfunctional, ugly, loveless brother bond. When putting the brothers back together, I expected some resolution to the issues the writers introduced this season, and I didn't get any of that. They are together because the plot requires they be together. That's it??

While I didn't hate the episode, I found the whole thing totally unsatisfying... and I really don't think I can listen to another 'brother talk' down the line. My opinion of both brothers at this point is that they really are pretty pathetic individuals with no chance of ever finding anything but the misery they seem to cherish. I think I'll cheer for Crowley. He's the only one that seems to have a clear idea of who he is and what he wants.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-17 11:29
New Episode, I still think that the brother’s relationship has been strained from the start. From the less warm hug from Sam in Epi.1. I think Sam will be a good CIA agent. He’s so good at playing double life. No matter what he says about hating the lies that their family has led throughout his upbringing, he does it brilliantly now.

I maybe in the minority here but I decide to say it anyway because we’re free to have opinion, right?

Good Riddance Amelia: I never like soap opera. Never watch TV shows with too many dramas because they always make my stomach hurts. Most soap operas are petty with unnecessary drama and sometimes questionable moral. Amelia’s character doesn’t appeal to me from the get go. The way she was written, too many hard edges on her that makes me perceive her character like a sour lemon. (I like lemon but not too sour please).
Now, I’ve been raised in a strict family. My mom always said that whoever I am with, I should never, never be with someone else’s husband. Until I see the divorce paper, the man is off limit. That’s the principle that I keep until now. As a woman, we have so many bad connotations. We have to protect ourselves and respect ourselves. Going for someone else’s husband is demeaning to our self respect. Woman is strong and capable and respectable member of our society. If we want to be respected as equal against men then we must respect ourselves before we can be respected by others. Sleeping with another man when we’re still someone else’s wife is undignified. Like slapping dirt to our own face. That is the moral value that my mom keeps reminding me and I hold that still. So, I cannot accept Amelia’s behavior no matter what her reason is. I dislike that characteristic in a woman because that kind of woman paints a bad picture to women.

So, she claims to do it by the name of love. Is that mean that everything that we do in the name of love is forgiven? Like killing in the name of love? Don’t do bad things in the name of love, please. It gives love a bad name. Love is pure. Love is God’s most precious gift. It is man who is corrupt. It is man or woman who paints love bad.

That’s just my personal take on the whole Sam/Amelia unnecessary angst/drama. If Amelia is a respectable woman then she must talk to Don that she still loves Sam and can’t be with him because it’s the same as cheating him in her heart. Take time off from both of them, away from the distractions; finds her own way and makes her own decisions. Instead, she makes it like a back up plan. If Sam accepts her, “woohoo bye-bye Don, it’s not you, it’s me”. Sam dumps her, “well, good thing I haven’t divorce Don. Even though, I don’t love him like that anymore, I can use him. He’s good to me and easy to be fooled. I mean he doesn’t even know that I slept with another man behind his back. Who knows, if someday there’s another ‘Sam’ come around that wants to stay with me and I’ll kick Don to the curb for good”. It’s solid plan. You’re really a good player Amelia, really good.

I’m so sorry that my tone is a bit harsh and maybe some people disagree. But that’s okay. It's just that the way Amelia’s character is written disagrees with the way I was raised. I thought that Sam was raised good but the writer seemed to insist that I was wrong. I guess the one who creates Amelia’s character is a man. Huh, Figures.

Bye-Bye Benny: It’s time. Benny’s an adult Vamp. Way much older than Dean or any human. He doesn’t need babysitter. There’s still lot’s of secret about Benny such as the identity of the one who told him about the Purgatory gate. Now, that Dean severs ties with him, I hope Benny will shed his cloak and mask and work on his own agenda. So that we know what he’s really up to top side. I don’t believe it’s the last we see Benny.

My prediction comes true:

- After Levi’s and Demon’s , it’s a natural progression of the plot to have an Angel tablet. I bet there is a tablet about human too. After all we are God’s most loved creation. We are the reason why Luci bailed.

This is my theory:
The Demon tablet appeared after Dean and Sam had sent Leviathans back to Purgatory. That means whatever stated at the end of the tablet, as a foot note/ fail safe, activated the location of the demon’s tablet. I think this maybe what the Angel is after. Naomi wants Cas to help Sam and Dean to get the tablet and close the gate of hell because after performing that ritual the key to the location of the Angel tablet will be revealed. This is what Naomi is after. So, that no one can banish them to Heaven forever. And with majority of demons sealed in Hell, Angels can rule.


Funny parts:
It’s funny that when Cas tells Dean about Samandriel, one thing that stuck in Dean’s mind was the name of Sam. Clearly he’s been thinking of his brother at the time.

Sammy runs away again. I don’t know why the writers insist to write Sam as a runner. It’s not maturity. Sam’s the same as the 18 years old Sam who ran away to Standford. At the time, I can understand Sam. He just went to school. What’s wrong with that? He (and we) still didn’t know about his destiny and the forces of hell that always surrounded him. Demons always surrounded him. Like what Luci said in SS that demons were always around Sam wherever he went. At least when he stayed with his family he was protected. I suspect that was part of the reason why John was very against the idea of Sam going to college. At Standford, Sam chose not to protect his house with salt line so demon Brady could enter and killed Jessica. Now, Sam still hasn’t learnt from his past mistake. Keeping Amelia in the dark could cost not only her life but also Don’s and her father’s because she will not know how to protect herself from the supernatural. Does Sam think that Crowley is above torturing her to get leverage? Does he forget the way Crowley broke Channing’s neck? Crowley will come and if Amelia dies the blame will be on Sam.

When we know that the rail track is broken will we let the train go? With the promise of accidents in the near future? When we know that there are nails on the road will we keep it there? Because the next car could have an accident because of that nails and because we keep quiet about it. A decent human being will do the right thing, will at least call the train company and inform them, will get rid of the nails or at least put a warning on the road for the next car.

I’m still waiting for Sam to be mature and finally able to do the right thing.

If Sam really loves Amelia he’ll warn her. Keeping her in the dark after getting involved with her is irresponsible and they said this season is about maturity. Which maturity they were talking about here? S4 Sam made more sense than this Sam. Is it because Adam is family? Blood? So, should we make a conclusion that Sam doesn’t really love Amelia? That family ties for Sam is thicker than any love tryst?

Amelia was only content with Sam. Content is not happy. Sam doesn’t lover her enough to be willing to tell her how to protect herself even though he knows what has happened to Jess, Lisa and Ben.

So, yes. Blood’s still ticker.


Curious parts:
Crowley is not your usual crossroad demon. Since when a demon speaks Enochian? Isn’t it a dead language only spoken by angel?

What I like: Kevin's growing hair. I like his hair best this episode. Last season long hair is too boyband like. Early this season he looks like a match stick head. Osric don't do round head. His hair this episode shapes his head better.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-01-17 13:19
Quote:
Take time off from both of them, away from the distractions; finds her own way and makes her own decisions. Instead, she makes it like a back up plan. If Sam accepts her, “woohoo bye-bye Don, it’s not you, it’s me”. Sam dumps her, “well, good thing I haven’t divorce Don. Even though, I don’t love him like that anymore, I can use him. He’s good to me and easy to be fooled. I mean he doesn’t even know that I slept with another man behind his back. Who knows, if someday there’s another ‘Sam’ come around that wants to stay with me and I’ll kick Don to the curb for good”. It’s solid plan. You’re really a good player Amelia, really good.
This has always been my view too. If you're having a hard time choosing between 2 people than you really shouldn't be with either until your head is on straight. And saying I can't have Sam so I guess I'm stuck with my husband, does a disservice to everyone involved.

As far as Sam's part of the decision, while I have to admit I was surprised that would do that, I don't really see this being against his upbringing. I can see Dean or John messing around with a married woman given the right set of circumstances. Now maybe not if Dean had met the guy and thought he was a good guy, like Sam did. But I don't see him being extremely morally opposed to the idea.

But Sam has always been a more conservative with stuff like this. But I always considered that more of a self-imposed morality, like his not liking CC scams early on. Even though John and Dean both did it.

Before he left was different, they were in a relationship established when they thought Don was dead. But she stayed with Don. Sam met him. Liked him. Saw them looking happy together. Know Don believes them to be back together and still slept with her. THAT doesn't seem like him. But to me, lots of things seem off in the scenes he's with Amelia.
Ale
# Ale 2013-01-17 13:36
Now, I’ve been raised in a strict family. My mom always said that whoever I am with, I should never, never be with someone else’s husband. Until I see the divorce paper, the man is off limit. That’s the principle that I keep until now. As a woman, we have so many bad connotations. We have to protect ourselves and respect ourselves. Going for someone else’s husband is demeaning to our self respect. Woman is strong and capable and respectable member of our society. If we want to be respected as equal against men then we must respect ourselves before we can be respected by others. Sleeping with another man when we’re still someone else’s wife is undignified. Like slapping dirt to our own face. That is the moral value that my mom keeps reminding me and I hold that still. So, I cannot accept Amelia’s behavior no matter what her reason is. I dislike that characteristic in a woman because that kind of woman paints a bad picture to women.

So, she claims to do it by the name of love. Is that mean that everything that we do in the name of love is forgiven? Like killing in the name of love? Don’t do bad things in the name of love, please. It gives love a bad name. Love is pure. Love is God’s most precious gift. It is man who is corrupt. It is man or woman who paints love bad.

I think your mother is a very wise woman, since experience teaches (not mine, thank Chuck!) that men seldom leave their wives for their mistress. They tend to keep both in that status until one of them, or both, take action.

It's a very uncomfortable position to be, a mistress, in my opinion.

Not that I think Sam is a 'mistress', haha! (is there a male term for that? - sorry, English is not my first language), and I don't think he would ever, eeevvvveeeerrrr r, accept that. He is too good for that. He just slipped.

That said, I personaly think that a person that sleeps with somebody's wife/husband is not a cheater, because who is he cheating? He doesn't own fidelity to the husband/wife, since he is not the one that is married. (please, let me clarify again that that's not my situation - don't think evil of me, I just think that way!).

I respect very much your opinion but I disagree - love IS complicated... You can be confused and not be a bad person for it.
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-01-17 15:29
Quote:
At Standford, Sam chose not to protect his house with salt line so demon Brady could enter and killed Jessica. Now, Sam still hasn’t learnt from his past mistake. Keeping Amelia in the dark could cost not only her life but also Don’s and her father’s because she will not know how to protect herself from the supernatural. Does Sam think that Crowley is above torturing her to get leverage? Does he forget the way Crowley broke Channing’s neck? Crowley will come and if Amelia dies the blame will be on Sam.
Yeah I really cannot believe that Sam didn't tell Amelia about what he's involved in. I get that it's a tough situation for him to deal with, but surely he remembers what happened to Jess, and what happened to Lisa/Ben. If Crowley wanted to, he could easily get to Amelia and harm her, as you say, just as easily as he got to Kevin's girlfriend.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-17 16:19
I'm sort of confused as to what Sam did tell Amelia about what he does for a living because up until this week's episode I was of the opinion that Amelia only knew Sam as the HandyMan at a local Motel. I seem to remember her describing that as Sam's job to her Dad. However, in this week's episode she alludes to Sam having some sort of other life (while he was with her) that she knew nothing about. Does this mean that Sam was hunting, in some fashion, while Dean was in Purgatory and that Sam chose not to tell Amelia about it? Or did Sam just head off to Rufus' cabin every so often, for time to himself, and Amelia resented this? Anyone able to offer clarification on this plot element? :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 18:13
Although it hasn't been on screen, the writers have said that Sam did go to Rufus's cabin periodically. Whether or not he was hunting has not been addressed.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 09:06
I think we have yet to learn something in reagrds to Sam's year but I dont think we're going to learn it for some time, probably the end of the season?

I also think the angels had Benny get Dean out of Purgatory and brought Don back from the dead to get Sam back into hunting.

Deffinately more secrets yet to come.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-17 18:38
Maybe Sam should have told Ameila everything and then had her memory erased.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 09:08
thats a good idea, then she would have know about monsters and would have been able to protect herself....oh wait!
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 09:04
Lisa and Ben knew about the siupernatural and that didnt help them any did it? Seems to be that it doesnt make a difference either way. It only would have mattered if Sam had tried to have one foot in both worlds ala Dean season 6. Sam was pretty much all in or all out from the start, he just started out all out (of hunting) and ended up all in (of hunting).

If Sam had tried to have his relationship with Amelia while hunting he would have needed to tell her otherwise no it didnt matter.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-17 15:40
When did Sam run away in this episode? I only saw him go for a walk. And he told Dean that was what he was doing.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 17:14
Quote:
When did Sam run away in this episode? I only saw him go for a walk. And he told Dean that was what he was doing.
He didn't! I vehemently disagree w/the idea that Sam runs away from his problems. I haven't seen that over the past 7 years. Taking time to clear one's head or reflect on life's problems is NOT "running away" IMO.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 22:48
I haven't seen Sam run AWAY either. I've seen him run toward things, college, finding Jess's killer, trying to find John when Dean only wanted to follow John's orders, finding why John wanted him dead, trying to kill Lilith, jumping in the cage, trying to remember his soulless days, coming back so he wouldn't leave Dean alone out there, finding and fighting a ghost while he was dying. Even in this episode, he didn't run away from Amelia, Cas told him he was needed to save Samandriel and he ran TOWARD that.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 22:37
Quote:

He didn't! I vehemently disagree w/the idea that Sam runs away from his problems. I haven't seen that over the past 7 years. Taking time to clear one's head or reflect on life's problems is NOT "running away" IMO.
Sam did say that he ran when he didn't look for Dean. Of all the things he chose to run away when he supposed to look for his brother. It's canon. Sam told Amelia and Amelia's father that he RAN. It's enough proof to me that the writers insist to write Sam as a runner this season.

I'm not blaming Sam because Sam Winchester is a fictional character. He can't think for himself. The writers are the one who put their thoughts into into Sam's mouth.

The same as last night. I don't know who last episode's writer was but it was proof of bad writing. By making Amelia make a pack about 'to be or not to be in the motel' is taking the easy / coward way out to settle the situation. Other writers may wrote it differently with employing different methods. Adam Glass might write it differently, Carver, Edlund, Kripke, Gamble might write it differently. They might write Sam talking things through with Amelia and told her directly that he can't be with her in words not in an empty motel symbolical.

You see... it's not about Sam that bothers me. It's the way this writer wrote Sam's storyline. It's The writer of Torn and Frayed that I have problem with. Because she chose to write the pack that what I think is a coward way to settle a problem IMHO. Since she made Amelia speak about the pack. Instilling her ideas into Amelia character's mouth, then Sam must acts accordingly.

I guess i much prefer Sam say to Amelia "I'm sorry Amelia I can't be with you. It's too complicated. I won't bother you again. Go back with Don if you love him but if you don't please don't string him along. It's just not the right thing to do."

The whole Sam/Amelia felt too much like soap opera to me. Perhaps it's just me because I'm a no nonsense kind of person. I don't like small talk. I prefer straight to the point and no talking around things. If I'm Amelia, I prefer Sam to say to me directly other than giving him a way to take the coward way of not showing up in a motel. I hate that. If I'm Amelia I will not make the pack. My nature is like Dean in this matter. "If you love me then I want you to stay, Sam but if you chose to leave then don't come back but you need to tell that directly in my face so I know that I won't wait. I will know that you don't love me enough to want to stay with me and thus you don't worth for me to wait for."

That's if I'm Amelia but If I'm Amelia I won't sleep with a man behind my husband's back. Of all the Supernatural girls, she's the worst. Even more than both Rubys. At least Ruby is a demon, she can't help of being evil. It was written in her black black soul that she's created and designed to do evil. Can't Sam find a decent woman at least?

Sorry, that's just my nature. To say that I'm disappointed with the writing of Sam this season is taking it lightly. "Heartache" and tonight's episode are the worst of Sam's writing in my opinion.

I don't mad at Sam. I'm mad at the writer. Sam's just a fictional character. He'll do anything that you write.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 01:05
Quote:
When did Sam run away in this episode? I only saw him go for a walk. And he told Dean that was what he was doing.
I don't know if you're commenting on my comment above Jo, but if you are then what I mean about Sam running away is not running away from Dean. Sam chooses not to tell Amelia goodbye directly. He chooses not to face her.

I know that Amelia already said that if one of them still in the motel or not then they'll know. But as a woman I think that action as running away. Let's say that I dislike that characteristic in a man. It's not a gentlemanly thing to do.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-18 03:08
Quote:
Quote:
When did Sam run away in this episode? I only saw him go for a walk. And he told Dean that was what he was doing.
I don't know if you're commenting on my comment above Jo, but if you are then what I mean about Sam running away is not running away from Dean. Sam chooses not to tell Amelia goodbye directly. He chooses not to face her.

I know that Amelia already said that if one of them still in the motel or not then they'll know. But as a woman I think that action as running away. Let's say that I dislike that characteristic in a man. It's not a gentlemanly thing to do.
He didnt need to face her that wasnt the idea , the agreement was plain and simple what did you expect Sam to say if Amelia walked in and Sam was there she would of believed that he wanted them to be together and it would of given her a false impression and false hope that would be worst and the fact is he didnt need to say goodbye directly.
The agreement was fair both knew where they stood it was upfront and with due respect to view it as Sam running away is odd to say the least.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 09:12
They had essentially already said a goodbye and yes it would have been cruel for him to be waiting there to tell her that he was out and couldnt be with her. She specifically asked him to be all in or all out, he was clearly all out so showing up would have been the ungentalmanly thing to do.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-18 09:14
Quote:
Quote:
When did Sam run away in this episode? I only saw him go for a walk. And he told Dean that was what he was doing.
I don't know if you're commenting on my comment above Jo, but if you are then what I mean about Sam running away is not running away from Dean. Sam chooses not to tell Amelia goodbye directly. He chooses not to face her.

I know that Amelia already said that if one of them still in the motel or not then they'll know. But as a woman I think that action as running away. Let's say that I dislike that characteristic in a man. It's not a gentlemanly thing to do.
Yes, it was in relation to your post. I don't see Sam running away from Amelia either as they had said before they parted either on or them would be there in 2 days, neither of them would be there in 2 days or both of them would be there in 2 days.
Also, Cas went and got Sam, telling him that Dean needed him. He had to made a choice and I think he made the correct one as Amelia had a husband and there really was no future for them at this point.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 23:08
Yes, Jo. I agree that I like it that Sam make a good choice by not coming back to Amelia. Because now I know that she's not above to sleep with another man behind her husband's back. Who can guarantee that she won't sleep with another man behind Sam's back later on? I don't think she knows what the word loyal means. Sam doesn't deserve her, even riot doesn't deserve her, even Don.

But I have a problem not with Sam in particular but by the way the writer wrote about Sam's storyline. I have said much above under lala's post to explain my reasoning.

What I'm saying is... the writer is the one that made Amelia to say the pack. It sounds so neat. Sam didn't need to say anything, just not coming back. I hate that pack. It gives me the impression that the writer is giving Sam a way to run from by not explaining. It's the writing that I have problem with. The way she wrote the pack to settle the problem is a coward way. It can be done differently by other writers.

Well, the good thing is Sam is running away from her towards Dean.

It's just my nature that I will want things to say to me in my face because I think that kind of characteristic in a man is not a gentleman. It's my thing and I have a problem with the way the writer write Sam's resolution on the Amelia's front. Not particularly about Sam. I always perceive Sam as the one who always wants to talk things through. I miss that Sam. Sam's been writen hot and cold this season. Sometimes, he cares sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he's touchy feelly sometimes he's cold.

Who is Sam this season?
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-17 18:36
MAybe Sam should tell Ameila everything, teach her how too defend herself and then erase her memory?
Ally
# Ally 2013-01-17 13:22
I liked this episode. I think what happened to Benny and Amelia pretty unfair, but I understand Sam's and Dean's reason, they have the saving the world and helping Cas in first place and they want to concentrate on it, but I have a feeling this won't be the last we see of Amelia and Benny. I was so sad because of Samandriel, I take longer to like characters this much, but Samandriel was a exception, he was good and sweet and there weren't wings(I'm in denial), maybe he's still alive! I din't had a full opinion in Naomi, but my opinion now is clear, she needs to die, she made Cas kill Samandriel against his will and Cas is already feeling so guilty, how will this leave him? I loved the destiel moments in the episode, on a other note and I hope the boys don't forget Cas in the episodes he's gone.
kavya
# kavya 2013-01-17 14:00
i liked the episode, it was interesting. thanks ardeospina for the review.
I could be wrong but i find this season very slow and disconnected.it s seems to be running on a formula of 1 or 2 episodes of mythical arc that dont give away much info and other episode a filler.
my biggest problem is with characterizatio n of brothers and their relationship that just feels so off (season 4 was heavily based on brotherly dispute but still they seemed logical and connected)
Sam looks so unfocused and disoriented (it feels as if his mental heath was way better in season 7 than right now). Sam being portrayed as eternal runner, his relationship with amellia, his inability in trying to find dean and his dislike for benny feels too contrived and unbelievable.
Dean started out with PTSD but now its all about being uncaring hunter.
i have always loved this show i just wish for it to speed up, be more content driven and clear in its characterizatio n.
ikang
# ikang 2013-01-17 14:26
I thought the episode started out slow. But towards the end I was clutching my sofa and wailing: Why you do this, Show? Samandriel! Caaaaassss! *flails over coffee table*
Castiel's tears of blood was a friggin' nice touch.

I really tried hard to like Amelia, but I just wanted her to exit out. Or have her eyes turn black. Her and Sam sleeping together had me surprisingly unsurprised, although I did let out an obligatory "Aw, Sam! Whyye?" I'm a little relieved that her storyline seems to be over. For now, at least.

On the other hand, I'm liking the new angle regarding heaven. I hope for a good ol' three-way tussle between heaven, hell, and those pesky Winchesters.

And I was sad when Dean cut Benny off. He chose to cut contact with him rather than keep fighting with Sam about it. Now I'm 90% sure Benny is not gonna make it past this season, which is a shame, because he's such a cuddly vampire.

I also agree that the reunion felt pretty bleak. Not necessarily because they chose to stay, but because they probably feel that this is endless. It's been 8 years, this chosing the hunt over a chance for happiness must be getting old. ...Now here's to hoping they hold out for a few more years.
LoveMeSomeDean
# LoveMeSomeDean 2013-01-17 15:16
I seem to be in the minority again.

I enjoyed the episode very much. I think Jenny did a great job and you can always tell when a woman writes an episode because of the depth of emotion.

Dean: has always been the aggressive, shoot first ask questions later brother. So his behavior in this episode goes back to Dean of the past. When he sent the text to Sam pretending to be Amelia, he was not thinking about Jessica or what Sam would be thinking. He was thinking about potentially saving his brother from Benny and Benny from his brother. (exhibit A-Martin’s corpse)

As I have stated before the brothers rarely if ever say the actual words “I am sorry” to each other during or after an argument or actual fist fight. So there was no way Dean was going to say sorry for misleading Sam to Texas. In Dean’s mind his intentions were done with no intent to scare the crap out of Sam.

Dean telling Cas he did not need Sam to find Crowley’s lair was the stubborn I don’t need anyone to help me and I can’t depend on anyone Dean. (still broken)

When Dean saves Sam on several occasions during the episode he proves yet again he loves his brother no matter what.
Sam says thank you and Dean gives him bitchface and walks away.
Bitchface translation “Dude, seriously, see I do love you and will always have your back” I am paraphrasing.

Dean to Sam: you have a girl to get back to, one of us should be happy, maybe I am jealous of your ability to detach yourself from this life. Holy mother of Chuck, I was crying at this point. How much more can he say to Sam to set him free.
He gave Sam the same options Amelia gave him, do it or don’t but make a dam decision.

Sam: I prefer it when we are not looking at “puppy eyed Sam”. Jared has much better range and I do not think he is given the ability to show his true acting ability playing “puppy eyed Sam”. Do not mistake this statement, I am a Dean girl all the way, but as I like to say I am also Sam curious on occasions.

I did not feel there ever was any true chemistry between the characters of Sam and Amelia. I do not understand the uproar over the “knocking boots” on this episode. Two consenting adults doing what adults do.

Sam admitted it was a mistake, realizing he let his emotions take over. For Chuck say folk’s adultery, really are you kidding me?

I do have to admit, when the motel door opened and it was Amelia and she looked in the room and realized Sam was not there it did tug at my heart. She is not happily married and he is staying w/Don out of obligation. (BTW is he the Don we don’t take a joint from?)

Castiel: Oh my poor broken angel! Dam Misha did an outstanding job in this episode. His dead pan delivery of lines never gets tiring. When he was holding Samandriel and telling him he is safe and then holding his head after he had to stab him you just felt his anguish.

You know he is either going to go full on “Angel bat shit crazy” on heaven or he is going to crumble and we will see his wings for the last time. ( I vote for BSC)

Crowley: Hit an all-time high for evil in this episode. The torture was sooooooo freaking horrible. The amount of discussion on the torture says it all. It made its point, everyone is talking about how graphic it was, how over the top it was. It was Crowley at his core…”the King of Hell” that is what he does.

He cut off Kevin’s finger, he broke Channing,s neck, he exploded a potential prophet just to show he could. (which writer had treatment for scoliosis as a child is my question, the head apparatus was very reminiscent ?)

Samandriel: What can we say about heavens most adorable angel. Dam that kid can scream! Every time they showed poor Alfie my finger lingered over the mute button, wow this was powerful! You felt ever turn of ever screw. Can’t say enough about this actor’s fantastic job on this episode.

Summary: I do not feel the brothers are truly together yet. (they did not clink beer bottles) They have to talk this out, there has to be shouting, and there has to be tears. They have to go deep to be able to truly get past this hurt to the core wounds they both have.

The writers will do us all in injustice if they make this episode the panacea for the Winchesters. These are 2 grown men; please let them start acting like it. It took 8 years for Sam to have a beard or hair on his chest.

Dam Harry Potter was showing whiskers and chest hairs years ago...I m just saying .
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2013-01-17 15:53
I don't know. This just wasn't a very enjoyable episode to me. I really hated the torturing of poor (but adorable!) Samandriel. Not that I didn't enjoy seeing Crowley again but those torture scenes were just too much IMO.

I hated Sam's pissy righteous indignation reaction to Dean as he tried to explain his point of view about what happened to Martin, and about his trust in Benny. Dean asked Sam to trust him and Sam wouldn't. Dean admitted he was wrong in sending the text but Sam admitted no wrongdoing at all. Dean tried to explain that Benny killed Martin in self defense (I wish he would have also told Sam about Martin taking a hostage!) and Dean asked Sam to trust him about Benny.... but Sam was having none of it.

So Dean cut ties with Benny. I know it's not something Dean wanted to do and I feel bad for both of them. I hope Benny can stay on the right path, but I have a feeling the show will have Benny start killing again just to put Dean in the situation of having to kill Benny. And then Sam can tell Dean "told ya so!" Ugh.

I feel for Cas as well. He's being used and manipulated without his knowledge. He's trying to pay his penance and get on with his life, but Naomi has other plans for poor Cas. And poor Alfie! Oh Cas is gonna feel so bad about killing him. I really hope they deal with what's going on with Naomi soon because I'm really worried for Cas.

I really hope this was the end of the Amelia/Sam storyline. This storyline has been such a waste of time IMO.

The brother's reunion was ... meh. Sam basically stayed because of everything that went down in this episode and with the mystery about Cas killing Samandriel, and Crowley's new discovery about the tablets. I really hope that things will get better between them. I'm not sure how they could get much worse.
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-17 18:47
You dont get to chosoe your own penance...penan ce shooses you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-17 23:17
Quote:
You dont get to chosoe your own penance...penance shooses you.
well said
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-18 09:18
Quote:
I don't know. This just wasn't a very enjoyable episode to me. I really hated the torturing of poor (but adorable!) Samandriel. Not that I didn't enjoy seeing Crowley again but those torture scenes were just too much IMO.

I hated Sam's pissy righteous indignation reaction to Dean as he tried to explain his point of view about what happened to Martin, and about his trust in Benny. Dean asked Sam to trust him and Sam wouldn't. Dean admitted he was wrong in sending the text but Sam admitted no wrongdoing at all. Dean tried to explain that Benny killed Martin in self defense (I wish he would have also told Sam about Martin taking a hostage!) and Dean asked Sam to trust him about Benny.... but Sam was having none of it.

So Dean cut ties with Benny. I know it's not something Dean wanted to do and I feel bad for both of them. I hope Benny can stay on the right path, but I have a feeling the show will have Benny start killing again just to put Dean in the situation of having to kill Benny. And then Sam can tell Dean "told ya so!" Ugh.

I feel for Cas as well. He's being used and manipulated without his knowledge. He's trying to pay his penance and get on with his life, but Naomi has other plans for poor Cas. And poor Alfie! Oh Cas is gonna feel so bad about killing him. I really hope they deal with what's going on with Naomi soon because I'm really worried for Cas.

I really hope this was the end of the Amelia/Sam storyline. This storyline has been such a waste of time IMO.

The brother's reunion was ... meh. Sam basically stayed because of everything that went down in this episode and with the mystery about Cas killing Samandriel, and Crowley's new discovery about the tablets. I really hope that things will get better between them. I'm not sure how they could get much worse.
Nope, Dean asked Sam to trust Benny which he said he couldn't do.
Dean was clearly wrong for sending that text given Sam's history of things happening to the women he cares about but I'm not seeing what Sam owes an apology to Dean for so would you please explain your point of view.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 23:40
Quote:
I hated Sam's pissy righteous indignation reaction to Dean as he tried to explain his point of view about what happened to Martin, and about his trust in Benny. Dean asked Sam to trust him and Sam wouldn't. Dean admitted he was wrong in sending the text but Sam admitted no wrongdoing at all. Dean tried to explain that Benny killed Martin in self defense (I wish he would have also told Sam about Martin taking a hostage!) and Dean asked Sam to trust him about Benny.... but Sam was having none of it.
What if Dean instead said, "Sam, you have to know that your decision to bring Martin into the hunt is unwise. You know he's not stable. You've seen how he's jittery and anxious all the time. You can't expect him to make a good decision by himself. If you sent someone else to spy on Benny I would still be pissed but things probably won't end bloody. Don't you know that he took his granddaughter hostage? threatening to kill her? Is that the behavior of a sane hunter?"

I agree with Sam for sending a hunter to spy on Benny but I blame Sam for choosing Martin to do it. If I'm Sam, I'll distrust Benny too. If I'm Dean I'll be offended too but Dean only asked Sam to trust Benny without giving more reason why he should trust the Vamp other than he'd saved him. Well, Ruby saved Sam but in the end she had another agenda. Sam's just afraid that Benny has another agenda in saving Dean. I can understand that Sam is worried for Dean. But I still blame Sam for sending the not-sane-Martin to spy on Benny. Sam should know that Martin is not the right person to do it.

There's Garth. Garth at least has a good head and a good heart. Sam could've sent Garth to do it instead, why Martin? Why would Sam not think things through with his decision?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-01-19 01:04
Garth was charged with protecting Kevin, a much more important task, so he would not be able to take time out (and who knows how much time) to sit and watch a vampire who might or might not have been on the dry.

In relation to Martin being unstable (and I don't think that jitteriness is a sign of instability cos if it is then I work with about 200 jittery people. Jeez, even Dean was jittery when he was on his own with Kevin in this episode) and not being able to make a good decision; Martin was stable enough to find Benny and he was stable enough to not go after him after the first death, instead doing what he was asked to do, and contact Sam. It was Sam who made the decision, based on the evidence from Martin, and lack of evidence from Dean, to go after Benny.

In relation to the sanity of the hunter, numerous hunters (including Sam and Dean) acted as Martin did in this episode so are they all unstable? If it was confirmed that Benny was the killer in Citizen Fang, then would Martin have been justified in doing what he did to stop a killer from killing again or would we still be questioning his sanity?
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-19 02:17
Quote:

In relation to Martin being unstable (and I don't think that jitteriness is a sign of instability cos if it is then I work with about 200 jittery people. Jeez, even Dean was jittery when he was on his own with Kevin in this episode) and not being able to make a good decision; Martin was stable enough to find Benny and he was stable enough to not go after him after the first death, instead doing what he was asked to do, and contact Sam. It was Sam who made the decision, based on the evidence from Martin, and lack of evidence from Dean, to go after Benny.
Hi Kaj and Tim, (am new to this online chat thing so am not sure if it is polite to butt into conversations between other members, so please forgive me if this is rude, and please do let me know). I don't think the fans are ever going to agree on the 'Sammy was right/wrong to have Martin track Benny' issue. There are arguments that support/oppose both views. However the evidence shows that Martin threatened the life of a human which is breaking hunter rules. This Martin is not the same person as the Martin we met in the asylum, he seemed far more reasonable and in touch back then (oh the irony).

That two scenes in the motel room (Martin, Dean,Sam) gave the impression of having dual dynamics. On the one hand Sam and Dean seemed to have a good rapport in the beginning and dealt with each other in a mature and reasonable manner, then you have this juxtapositioned against the erratic and unpredictable behaviour of Martin (he even caught Dean off guard and that informs on Dean by the way, he had already asked Martin if he was ok so he should have been more on guard IMO). Perhaps this informs on perception again. As Sam said you can have something happening right in front of you yet you cannot see it. Due to their personal issues, neither brother weighed up the situation from a hunters POV, Martin was acting erratically IMO (the ice scene and the inability to discuss rationally (knocking Dean out)) had the boys stowed their crap they would have seen it in a more prudential light.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-17 15:55
I must admit I have warmed to Amelia in this last ep, at LAST a little ‘something’ shone through, I actually felt desperately sad for her in the end, but honestly, no disrespect to the actors, the PTB could NOT have found two actors with less chemistry if they had scoured universes yet undiscovered. Sam just looked ridiculous in that hotel bed looking all morose for succumbing to forbidden carnal pleasures. More to the point, however; I feel that the Sam/Amelia relationship was unfortunately just that. I don’t see Sam misconceiving anything about the relationship at all. All I can see is that she was necessary to the story to mirror Sam’s dilemma which was to choose between his new or old life. I guess I am at a loss to explain why this relationship was even considered as a Supernatural storyline. The PTB could have done a squijillion other scenarios which would have been far more relevant.

I am racking my brains to establish some reason why I find the interaction between the two boys so different this season (like off different). I know they have issues enough to sink a black hole and are mad at each other, hurting, jealous, distrusting etc, (they have been there soooo many times before, but the bond was never broken) I get that, but I feel there is just something not there any more, and a horrible thinky thought came into my head that whispered perhaps it is Jensen and Jared just tired of this whole thing; so I decided to watch S4 when they were at their worst, and it occurs to me that the boys have actually STOPPED fighting, they are just apathetic/weary /flat now, which is ironic because almost all the fans are stating how tired they are of the boys fighting. In the past Dean would yell and get onto his wild high horse and Sam would react in typical Sam fashion; however, when you look at their expressions and HOW they looked at each other, there was intensity, emotion, angsty expressions etc. there was an palpable connection. Now they just seem so closed off and flat, it is as though they have given up. So their decisions, on the surface, seem equitable; i.e. they have each sacrificed something precious to save their relationship, perhaps it’s because they are too tired/weary to fight for what they want, perhaps it is just easier to stay in a co-dependent relationship because it is all they know. That look they gave each other at the end spoke volumes and yet said nothing at all. Not happy, not sad, not anything really. Sniff sniff, Oh shit, where’s my tissues.

ps Can anybody tell me what has happened to Sam’s powers. Didn’t Ruby say that it was always in him?
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-01-17 16:08
This episode was just O.K. Finally, no more Amelia. I never liked the lack of chemistry between the actors, the way her character was develop, until the end, her last scene can be read as "oh well, #1 didn't show up, but I still have #2". I don't like telenovelas, and this story was taken from one, all the way, even with the possibility that she is pregnant with Sam's child, living with a husband she doesn't love and years later Sam will find out he has a child. The only difference will be, he finds out in a Supernatural way! hahaha (If you watch telenovelas, you'll see the most of them has this story arc)

The Benny first part of his end, was O.K. too, I said first part because his ending will be big, hopefully emotional and heartbreaking.

Cass... I like that he is the glue of the guys right now, trying to help and save him will make the guys get closer again.

I didn't like the screaming! poor Samandriel.
I didn't like the reasons why they stay together, but if this is the beginning of the big hugging moment, so be it.

Crowley, he is the Bobby of the bad guys... knows everything from his adversaries (well most of), that's why he became the king of hell. I can't wait until the guys take him down!

Of course I like Jensen's acting, as usual. That Dean look to Sam before he leaves him at the hotel... wow! I'm still amazed on how this actor can say a lot with just his facial expressions.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 01:22
Quote:
This episode was just O.K. Finally, no more Amelia. I never liked the lack of chemistry between the actors, the way her character was develop, until the end, her last scene can be read as "oh well, #1 didn't show up, but I still have #2". I don't like telenovelas, and this story was taken from one, all the way, even with the possibility that she is pregnant with Sam's child, living with a husband she doesn't love and years later Sam will find out he has a child. The only difference will be, he finds out in a Supernatural way! hahaha (If you watch telenovelas, you'll see the most of them has this story arc)
Even though I didn't follow them but I know several of telenovelas that was aired years ago. You're right they have lots of this arch. And it's ridiculous to combine this arc to Supernatural. Like they don't have any other ideas. It's just lame.

"oh well, #1 didn't show up, but I still have #2".

That's why I dislike her character. She's written as conniving and user.
Bevie
# Bevie 2013-01-17 16:15
Have to admit this episode did upset me a lot. Everything led to a depressing conclusion. Even the reunion at the end had no joy in it. Things just have to improve over the last half of the season don't they? Pleeeeease?

Dean apologized for sending Sam to Amelia but Sam won't even listen to what actually happened with Benny and Martin and is being so self-righteous lately that as much as I love Sammy, I am not liking Sam right now. (I'm sure that will change before long) :zzz

As for Amelia, don't care a fig for her. Just feel sorry for Don to have such a crappy wife to have come back to. Sam can do so much better in that area, and I was disappointed in him sleeping with who he knew was a married woman. I feel more sympathy for the dog than either of them. Sam had more chemistry with both the Rubys than with Amelia!

As for those miserable angels up there, it's time for Chuck to get his Godly ass back up to heaven and sort them out tout suite!! What a bunch of unfeeling cold cruel asshats and Naomi takes the cake! Poor little Samandriel, tortured dreadfully by Crowley, rescued by his hero angel Cas and then cruelly slaughtered by the same! I hope to live to see Naomi hoisted on her own petard (hopefully by Cas himself) and do some suffering herself. Boy, some of these angels are no better than the nastiest demons in hell.

I also live to see the brothers actually HAPPY to be together and allowed to have outside friends. One fault of this show is too much killing off of the wonderful characters who brought much value to the show. I'm very fond of Benny and will be desperately disappointed if Dean has to kill him or he dies in some other way. Poor Dean has lost Cas (again) and abandoned Benny to appease and smooth the way for Sam to return. Again he has given up a lot for the sake of his little bro, and by the look of the last of the episode, hasn't received much joy from it.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-17 16:24
I agree with you Bevie, the PTB need to start building up on outside characters that have worth and continuity. When the boys were fighting in the past, we always knew Bobby was there to sooth our shattered nerves.

There is a paucity of ppl in the show with continuity at the moment and that is dangerous because I cannot rely on the boys for my daily bread at the moment, and Garth is just not doing it for me at the moment. Perhaps I need to warm up to him
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-01-17 16:47
And Sam has lost nothing Bevie .

And wasnt this what Dean wanted Sam by his side driving down crazy street.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 01:31
Quote:
As for Amelia, don't care a fig for her. Just feel sorry for Don to have such a crappy wife to have come back to. Sam can do so much better in that area, and I was disappointed in him sleeping with who he knew was a married woman. I feel more sympathy for the dog than either of them. Sam had more chemistry with both the Rubys than with Amelia!
Crappy wife!!! Hahaha.... You're right! Poor Don and Riot. She's not that good of a Vet, not that good of a wife, not that good of a woman, I guess all of the crap in her life is mainly because of her. She lamented that Don chose to sign up to Irak without talking with her first. Now that I know what kind of woman she is, I wonder if Don went to Irak to get away from her because she drove him mad.
Perhaps she's too controlling and bitchy and dominating.
That trait clearly shows.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-18 09:19
Don has been away from home alot I think thats what Amelia said, she's basically in a life with a man who cares about her and she cares about but isnt really around? No wonder she insisted Sam be all in or all out. Amelia wasnt exactly getting her cake and eating too here, she loved Sam and wanted to be with him but felt she owed Don. She chose Sam in the end, maybe she would have chosen him all along had Sam now bowed out when Don returned.
kaj
# kaj 2013-01-18 23:56
I'm still not one who allow cheating because speaking from experience, it hurts a lot. You'll want to die when you know that your husband sleep with another woman behind your back. It doesn't happen to me directly but to someone that I consider in high regard.

If you're dissatisfy with your spouse, talk to them. Get a divorce if that's the better way. I am still a person with good moral so I'm sorry if I think Amelia is still a crappy wife. No mater the reason is, what become of our society and the future of our children if we allow someone to sleep with another behind their spouse's back just because they dissatisfy with the life? Is talking has become expensive nowadays? Is the marriage vow in front of God is meaningless nowadays?

Please... no matter what the reason is, cheating will destroy everything. I have a very personal reason. It hurts, it hurts sooooo much you'd wanna die. Thank God no one in my family was committing suicide but they're close to do it.

I don't hate Sam. I love Sam and Dean equally. I hate Amelia, though, and I thing Sam's too good for her. I am mostly dissatisfied with the way the writer wrote Sam this season. Sam's only a fictional character. It's the writer that I have problem with. She's the one who wrote Sam to sleep with another man's wife, so I blame her not Sam.
I don't know what Jenny Klein's personal opinion on cheating is and what she thinks of loyalties and marriage vow are. I'm just learning about what she wrote and what she made Sam do what she made Amelia do.
Hades
# Hades 2013-01-17 16:34
Plenty of Sam hate here as usual.
Alice
# Alice 2013-01-17 17:27
You've got to me kidding me. This is actually a very Sam friendly site. And a Dean friendly site. And a Castiel friendly site. Comments about character hate here are not welcome.
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2013-01-17 17:48
I don't see this as Sam hate....rather everyone is worried about the direction of Sam's character and wants it back on track.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-17 18:15
Criticism of a character does not always mean hate. You can be angry and frustrated at a characters actions without hating them.
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-01-17 18:02
It is mainly a Sam friendly site and that is fine with me as it treats Dean fairly.

I did not like the torture scene Yikes sticking knives into a brain .

As to the season I am generally enjoying it and I find that each episode has some tie to each other in the dialogue, there are hints all along about the brothers and their makeup and all will be worked out.

Alot of you talk as this has been going on forever and a day we are only 10 episodes in on the season of 23.
Carver has alot to work out after Gamble mess.
Even in the stand alones or comic one like Hunteri there is lots of meat about the boys.

Maybe it is because I am older I am more willing to wait and see what will happen, that is what keeps me entertained. Have you watched A game of Thrones now that is a show that takes awhile and has almost too many characters you need a file box, in my case I refer back to the books.

I am not ready to give up on this great show and I love each episode to me it's like unwrapping a christmas present, sometimes the giver hits it out of the ballpark and sometimes you regift the thing but never give up wanting more presents.

To me the best present is more Dean every week and to others more Sam but it would not be the same or worth watching without either of them
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-01-17 18:08
I do have this one theory thought whatever floating around in my simple mind.

The Alpha Vamp (he did say see you next season) maybe just a throw away line but maybe there is something there when actor is available.

Maybe he has plans of his own I would imagine he has a vast knowledge of purgatory and it's in and outs and sent Benny to get Dean out after all Dean was his child and is also human and may be of use to him.

Before anyone says why did he not get all the vamps out I am sure he could care less about them he can make more but Dean was special
Just speculating!
Amy
# Amy 2013-01-17 19:11
The other vamps arn't human thus they can't get out.

hmmm...it has to do with a SN creature getting Dean out becauwe they want him back...why not the fairies?

lol I'm now envisioning a fairy/vampire tussle over Dean....specifi cally a bunch of naked ladies attacking Alpha vamp.

Dean would think it better then porn. lol
sharon pence
# sharon pence 2013-01-17 19:45
LOL
st50
# st50 2013-01-17 20:24
Overall, I enjoyed the episode.
Sam and Dean have a lot of unresolved issues, but they've at least taken a first step.
Lots going on with the angel crowd, which will be interesting to watch.
Question: I've been waiting to find screen caps, but.... when Castiel drew the sigil on Sam's palm, should there not have been one big-ass nasty scar there? That was his left hand, wasn't it? Am I wrong or did they choose not to show it?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-17 21:10
It was his left hand and it was scar free. So continuity error or another indication that something is off with Sam. I'm guessing continuity error.
st50
# st50 2013-01-17 21:19
Well, the Winchesters are known for their miraculous healing-without -scarring powers, :D , but I was kind of hoping they'd keep that one.
lala2
# lala2 2013-01-17 23:49
Shouldn't Sam also have huge scars down his arms from his "suicide attempt" back in S4? The show is not good with continuity.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-18 00:05
Oh, he absolutely should, but they only appeared in one episode. He should have massive scars from the ghoul attack as well. But both of those can be explained the way Dean's missing scars are, that when Castiel resurrected him, he got rid of the scars. The scar on his hand was a plot point for 17 episodes. It wasn't a big plot point, considering Sam's insanity wasn't a big plot point, but it wasn't a scar that was never mentioned again, it was there for most of a season. I guess we can go with when Cas moved the hallucinations, he also very kindly took away Sam's scars, replaced his fillings with perfect teeth and made certain the bones in his arm that he broke in season 2 show no signs of a fracture. Cas makes a great doctor.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-01-18 00:23
Actually any scars before S6 can pretty much be written off because Cas healed Dean in SS and would have had to healed Sam's body when he pulled him from the cage. So anything before then wouldn't be there now.
eilf
# eilf 2013-01-18 11:26
Hi Lala, what attempt are you talking about here?
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-01-17 22:20
Maybe when Cass tried to heal him in the mental hospital, he healed the things he could, like his hand. Then, the thing he could not heal, the crazy, he moved to himself. What do you think!
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-01-17 23:48
Talking about scars, Jensen had something that looked like a scar under his chin, and a couple of scars in his knuckles. Did anybody else saw that?
ryder21
# ryder21 2013-01-18 07:58
Manstrad I saw this as well and remembered watching a con youtube video where the boys were talking about wrestling and carpet burn.
Apparently Jensen, Jared and Misha wrestled in Jensen's room during the Toronto Con. Jared and Misha ended up with cracked ribs and Jensen got carpet burn on his face and chin.
I looked at the shooting schedule and the time of the con coincides with the shooting of Citizen Fang. In some shots in CF you can see Jensen's chin carpet burn as well.
Boys will be boys!

Here are some youtube clips where they are talking about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGn-BFECqrE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aaUwyNY1g0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEHwKqHEvuM
http://dotthings.tumblr.com/post/34658019851/mishas-assbutts-jared-jensen-misha-and-the

I love the way the boys refer to it as 'fight training' and to as Misha as the 'victim', lol :lol:
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-01-18 21:24
Thanks Ryder21!!! I was thinking it was the wrestling too, somebody told me that when I saw the scar in Jensen's forehead. I really have no idea about the timing on the episodes, but damn! so many scars just for playing? I guess Jensen wasn't the winner of the match! hahaha... Thanks again.
Michele dashnjo
# Michele dashnjo 2013-01-18 01:47
So, a question ... remember when Cas burned Enochian symbols into the boys ribs so the Angels couldn't find them in season 5? He actually had to have a cellphone after that to find them, then they "prayed" to him season 6 to contact him and now he just pops in on them without warning. How's he doing that? I'm not complaining because Dean waking up to Cas watching him spilling beer all over himself and the Sam jumping out of his skin when Cas appeared next to him on the park bench was hilarious. However, it made me wonder what happened with the rib art.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-18 09:07
As I was reminded there is a good chance that Sam's scars were removed from him when Cas resurrected him, so there is a good chance that he erased the symbols at that time. Dean's should still be around. IRL, I think the Enochian symbols were a nice touch for season 5 when Kripke was intending to end the series. Now they are something the writers want to ignore because they are inconvenient now that Cas needs to keep finding them. Maybe they will throw in a couple of sentences indicating that since Naomi is so different from the other angels, she could find Sam and Dean without the symbols and erased them so other angels could do so as well.
Lindab30
# Lindab30 2013-01-18 15:02
Regarding the Enochian symbols that Castiel carved into the boys ribs. I have been wondering about this myself. Here is what I decided. The reason this no longer hides them is because the bones have healed, much like a broken bone "knits" itself back together, I believe the bones of their ribs "knitted" over the symbols and they are no longer present, or at least no longer proper. If you remember, the X-ray Dean showed of his rib cage showed all of the symbols in white, meaning a break in the bone. It looked exactly like every single X-ray my daughter had of her broken arms and leg. And there are seven of those! Each time the break looked like a white line had been drawn on the X-ray. Dean's ribs looked exactly the same to me. So, in my opinion, the Enochian symbols are no longer there because their bodies healed the damaged bone.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-19 09:26
Loved the episode.A strong beginning and I hope they build up on this.Loved the first Sam- Dean,Cas- Dean and Sam Amelia conversations.T he second Sam Amelia conversation was my favorite one (brilliant acting by both). Amelia's sadness at the end...good acting Liane Balaban.Every dialogue was perfect .angel tablet reveal rolls the plot forward.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-19 21:51
There has been a lot of talk about Martin and his stability in this thread, so I'm throwing in my two cents worth.

I have to address Martin's instability here. Martin was in the asylum because he realized ON HIS OWN that he was not capable of hunting. He was a mess in the asylum, but he was also coexisting for we don't know how long with a wraith who was exacerbating the mental instability of EVERYONE in the asylum. We don't know how bad Martin was due to his breakdown and how much was because he had spent a few months with a wraith working at his sanity. Once the wraith was dead, Martin could work through HIS problems.

So we hit Citizen Fang. Martin is not overly jumpy at first. He watches Benny. He follows Benny and reacts to a scream. Then he finds the body. He doesn't go after Benny. He calls Sam and reports. When Sam tells Dean the situation this conversation ensues

DEAN
Sorry – for a minute there, I thought you said Martin Creaser. [SAM continues to look at DEAN without speaking.] Crazy Martin from the loony bin?


SAM
Glendale Springs discharged him last month.


DEAN
And? Shouldn't he be assembling toys in a padded room? What's he doing back on the job?

Without having seen or talked to Martin Dean immediately says that Martin should be confined for life assembling toys in a padded room. Martin has said something bad about Benny and Dean starts to undercut the idea that Martin could be sane even though qualified doctors have decided that he is, in fact sane.

They go to meet Martin. Martin at first isn't particularly jumpy. He's straightforward . He admits he watched Benny for a week and Benny was clean. He tells them that Benny is using the name Roy. He wasn't seeing vampires attacks behind every move Benny made. He was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Then Dean chimes in.

Quote:
DEAN
Martin, you sure you're running on a full charge?
Martin got help and probably worked really hard to regain his stability and Dean starts undercutting him and questioning him. THIS is when Martin begins to get defensive. The Martin that watched Benny at the beginning didn't show signs of instability. He made note of every time Benny acted in a safe, non-killing manner. Dean comes in and works to undermine Martin's belief in himself as soon as Martin says something Dean doesn't like. Martin gets screwed in this episode. Dean accuses him of not being sane and then sides with a vampire without any explanation than "we have history" and "I owe him" neither argument would impress almost any hunter other than Sam. Then Sam gets the "Help" message for "Amelia" and believing she is in mortal danger, give into his panic and leaves Martin with no support system. Martin has Dean who is inexplicably to Martin (because Dean doesn't go into detail) is defending a vampire. Martin has vampire kills and as far as he can see, no backup. Martin is a hunter and he is trying to save human lives.

Martin KNEW when he was in trouble. He got help. He had doctors agree that he was stable and since he did know when he was in trouble, he had a handle on when he wasn't.

Mental illness can be cured or managed. It is not a sentence to being institutionaliz ed in perpetuity. The repeated refrain from some posters that Martin was unstable, not to be trusted and frankly insane is perpetuating a stereotype about mental illness that is bothersome and offends me. Some posters are announcing that a vampire, a being whose entire biology is to kill people can change and be trusted, but once a person becomes mentally ill, they must NEVER be trusted again. If push comes to shove illness is forever, biological imperative can be overcome by just snapping your fingers and once a vampire CLAIMS they are clean they must be trusted. If a formerly mentally ill person has been released because a doctor has found them to be stable, he must be mistrusted for all eternity. AND anyone who dares to mistrust the vampire must have their credibility doubted at all cost, as long as DEAN is supporting them.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-19 22:35
Perfectly said.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-20 01:01
Quote:
Martin got help and probably worked really hard to regain his stability and Dean starts undercutting him and questioning him. THIS is when Martin begins to get defensive. The Martin that watched Benny at the beginning didn't show signs of instability. He made note of every time Benny acted in a safe, non-killing manner. Dean comes in and works to undermine Martin's belief in himself as soon as Martin says something Dean doesn't like. Martin gets screwed in this episode. Dean accuses him of not being sane and then sides with a vampire without any explanation than "we have history" and "I owe him" neither argument would impress almost any hunter other than Sam. Then Sam gets the "Help" message for "Amelia" and believing she is in mortal danger, give into his panic and leaves Martin with no support system. Martin has Dean who is inexplicably to Martin (because Dean doesn't go into detail) is defending a vampire. Martin has vampire kills and as far as he can see, no backup. Martin is a hunter and he is trying to save human lives.

Martin KNEW when he was in trouble. He got help. He had doctors agree that he was stable and since he did know when he was in trouble, he had a handle on when he wasn't.

Mental illness can be cured or managed. It is not a sentence to being institutionalized in perpetuity. The repeated refrain from some posters that Martin was unstable, not to be trusted and frankly insane is perpetuating a stereotype about mental illness that is bothersome and offends me. Some posters are announcing that a vampire, a being whose entire biology is to kill people can change and be trusted, but once a person becomes mentally ill, they must NEVER be trusted again.
I concur wholeheartedly. Thank you for bringing attention to this.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-20 01:05
One caveat: Martin got screwed in a sense - I agree. But he, BEING sane, albeit eccentric, still had moral faculties. He still had the ability to judge right from wrong, and to weigh the consequences of his actions. He went after Benny after repeated warnings not to, after being told the situation was taken care of. And he used an innocent as bait against her will, which is inexcusable. So, I still say his death is on him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-20 08:27
I totally agree with that. Martin's death is on Martin and on Benny who couldn't hold his peaceable stance. What Martin did was wrong to Liz and very likely to trigger a violent response from Benny. Martin took that risk. And Benny didn't knock him out and tell Liz to keep him locked in the basement until Benny escaped, he killed him. But yes, Martin is responsible for Martin forgetting his hunter training and going in alone and with a plan that was insured to infuriate Benny and that is on him.
tanya rego
# tanya rego 2013-01-20 14:59
Martin had it coming, Martin was torturing Benny's GGD...HELLO...V amp or human, anyone would be out for blood if our families were in jeopardy, right?....i was hoping for Marting sitings tho...he Plays that part so darn good!..gonna miss him :sad:
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-20 15:21
You may be right on that, but until Benny it didn't matter. If a monster killed a human, deserved or not, the monster had to die. Think of how we handle wild animals. Once a bear or a lion or a tiger has killed a human being, it has been decided that they must then be put down because they are deemed so dangerous to humans. It doesn't matter if they were defending their young. It doesn't matter if they felt threatened by the person they kill. One strike and you're out. In the world of Supernatural, the rules are simply being a monster is reason enough to kill because monsters are inherently too dangerous to be allowed to live. Sam and Dean are some of the few hunters willing to give a monster, of any kind, the benefit of the doubt and allow them to live as long as they do not kill. Benny is not being given extra special status, because "he didn't have a choice". Well he did have a choice. Once he overpowered Martin, he could have tied him up and left. Liz would have told the law the truth, this guy came into the diner, called Roy a vampire, Roy knocked him out and ran. Roy is well known and Roy has been seen in the daylight. Most people don't believe in vampires in the first place and they certainly believe the myths about vampires are true and Benny/Roy doesn't act like people expect vampires to act. Heck Liz could babble about Benny having vampire teeth and it would be considered as her being in shock. Once they track Martin's past, he is suddenly a guy who was in an insane asylum and obviously didn't stay on his meds and shouldn't have been let out. So he goes back into the asylum ranting about vampires and it all goes away. There are times when people have to kill other people, I'm not sure this was one of them because I think Benny had other options.
tanya rego
# tanya rego 2013-01-20 15:38
Yes, i do believe u have a good point...but as a mother, i would stop at NOTHING, including kill if my sons life was at THAT Level of danger...maybe because we have come to think of Benny as human this season, we FORGET, or i FORGOT he is really a Vamp...and Vamps don't really have a reasoning bone in their body...right?.. .so maybe it's asking too much to see Benny tie up Martin get Liz to safety and RUN!...why? because all in all, ur right....Benny is in fact a monster after all....but im left adoring Benny's character so much because he tries so hard..and now DEAN has left him high and dry...literally , Benny BEGGED Dean for help as Benny is down to one Bag....( i posted this issue below) so now i am have seen from both sides...your point, very good, my point, im blinded as a mother and the fact that i have come to adore Benny and his want to just be human again so badly and to just fit in and be near Liz...yes, im sad Martin is gone, like i said, i was looking forward to him as much as seeing Garth in upcoming episodes...so its just all to bad..BUT...ive been loyal thru the good the bad and the ugly of the past 8 seasons and writers...so i guess i will trust what they are doing is something we can sink our teeth into....oh geesh, that was SO NOT a PUN...LOL...i just got it as i typed it..LOL...anywa y...thnx for the insight Percysowner...i like chatting with phylisophical people...and u seem to have that quality... im really do NOT think we have seen the last of Benny...i think Sam is gonna run into him and Dean is gonna catch him just as "it's" gonna happen?...i think the writers have something special planned for Benny's demise or becoming human again? i know if they do not feed they can be human again...but after 100 years....can Benny be human again?....can Cas pull THAT off????? at this point in 8 years....EVERYT HING is up in the air...and now they have officially added a season 9 and 10...im sure mostly cause Jared and Jensen have a wives and babies to feed now...LOL..who care why...at least we get a few more years...LOL.... thnx again... ;-)
tanya rego
# tanya rego 2013-01-20 14:56
...im bummbed...NO More Benny, man he is sexy, vamp or not...im excited to see Charlie is back this next week...im SOOOOOO GLAD Amelia is GONE..ack..real ly...that's who they pick for Sam to fall in love with....UM NO!...good ridance...but did feel bad no one was at the hotel when she got there...and what is going on with sam and dean..they are together or NOT?...and boy they sure looked excited huh..LOL and there is going to be a season 9 and 10...wtheck are they gonna do???....PLEASE just not let ALL these years be a waste fo MY time and make it end with some dignity...?...D Ean and lisa bump into each other and it's literally a FIRST MEETING FOR HER and not so much for Dean...but they fall in love...AGAIN... and sam...sam gets JESS back....Cas brings her back from HEaven?...somet hing to make these poor boys happy after all these years....AND ME!...LOL...JMH O...thnx guys...love my boys! T :~)
tanya rego
# tanya rego 2013-01-20 15:21
i keep watching the LAST PHONE CALL w/ Benny & Dean...and i can't stop crying...seriou sly...what's wrong with me?...im more upset about Benny than Sam...Sam has been a Jerk this season..its bugging me....AND im worried that Benny begged Dean for HELP knowing he has ONLY ONE BAG OF blood left...what is Benny gonna do? Vamp someone? or do what he should and knock over a blood bank?...im scared for Benny...what in the heck is wrong with me...after my loyalty to these boys all these years and im a crying over a vampire..LOL..g ood grief...ANY THOUGHTS anyone else think this way? anyone??? Thanks :cry:
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-20 20:55
I am having a little problem with all that myself so don't feel bad about that. Someone (emmau?) pointed out that the show deliberately made Benny extra sympathetic to rachet up the drama. I am sure that is true but it still bothers me to see Dean turn his back on someone he has befriended.

To Jo1027- No one here said Dean is infallible and she has a right to feel how she wants to, just as you do. Just because you so badly want to see Dean get his face rubbed in a failure does not mean you need to be unkind.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-21 12:35
Quote:
I am having a little problem with all that myself so don't feel bad about that. Someone (emmau?) pointed out that the show deliberately made Benny extra sympathetic to rachet up the drama. I am sure that is true but it still bothers me to see Dean turn his back on someone he has befriended.

To Jo1027- No one here said Dean is infallible and she has a right to feel how she wants to, just as you do. Just because you so badly want to see Dean get his face rubbed in a failure does not mean you need to be unkind.
Since I did not reply to anyone or quote anyone, who do you think I was being unkind to?
And you're wrong about what I want for Dean. I want Dean to be wrong so that he can understand what he's been doing to Sam since the apocolypse. IMO the only way the brothers will ever be able to work together as equals is if Dean makes just as big a mistake and takes responsibility for it as Sam has done for the apocolpse.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-21 19:27
Jo1027- some of your comments seem to reflect some of the issues in the comment just preceeding I thought they were aimed at her. She was talking about being upset and crying about the Benny situation and you said you didn't like him and hope he would return only so that Dean could kill him and would show that Dean is not infallible "because, guess what, he isn't". Lastly she said Sam was being a jerk which I know would never go over well with you.

If this is all a coincidence, I sincerely apologize.

Actually I do understand why you want Dean to be wrong. I don't agree but I understand. I myself wouldn't have a problem if Dean has made a bad judgement call on this. He has never been portrayed as infallible to me. I would be very sad that he would have to kill someone he felt was a friend and a little proud that he would accept that as his responsibility. I further don't feel that the mistakes each of them have made have to be balanced out somehow so that they can work as equals. I think the LOVE is and always has been there but they need to communicate better and respect each other as equals. The giant scales of mistakes do not have to perfectly balance out to acheive that. They have both made some whoppess IMO.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-21 20:25
I'm curious as to how you think they can be equal partners as long as Dean doesn't get what it feels like to make the same kind of mistake as Sam. As long as they don't have the same experiences, will Dean continue to use it against Sam as he has in the past?
Not being snide, I just would like to know how they can be equal partners. I don't see how but maybe you do. If so, would you share it?
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-21 21:41
Jo1027-I'm not sure I can but I will give it a shot. I know emotions are running high right now on the show and in the fandom. If you take the Sam haters and Dean haters out of the mix I think most people think that Sam has made mistakes but thought he was doing the right thing, and has since MORE than redeemed himself. Many people including Dean leaning fans have conceded that Dean has pulled some mean crap this year. But we also realize than much of the stuff that has come out of his mouth has been because was hurt at Sam not wanting to be/work with him and didn't make (as far as anyone know) any attempt to look for him. Dean doesn't know (especially post-Purg) how to deal with that so he lashes out at Sam. Sam gets hurt/mad
lashes back......never ending cycle.

Now a lot of weight has been put on the spectre rant. I've said and firmly believe that due to some of the other petty things that people were killing each other over that Dean did not really go around with all these unforgiven, simmering resentments in his daily life. The spectre scoured an already hurt and angry Dean for any speck of a negitive thing that Dean may have ever thought about blew it up and magnified it to a murderous rage. Some people took that as "Well now we REALLY know how Dean feels"

OK my point, if we could just take some of the emotion out of it and agree that these two love and need each other and the biggest issue is not that they need to share big mistakes but learn how to deal with each other like adults not the children they once were. They have both been contributing to this. I think Dean had started to think of Sam as an equal in past seasons and was trying. This year it all went south from the moment Dean came back.

If a married couple are having huge problems you wouldn't advise them to balance out the mistakes of the past so that they could be equals. That would never work. Any friendship, any partnership has to have a mutual respect and the ability to forgive. I think Dean (and Sam too) have that capability.

Sorry that was the best I can do to explain how I feel. Probably didn't change any minds but I feel better.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 22:27
I applaud your analysis re: what Dean and Sam need to fully come together. Keeping a balance sheet of who's been right and who's been wrong and who's done the most wrong to whom isn't going to fix anything. It doesn't fix things when show throws mud at one boy, and then throws mud at the other so they'll be even.

Instead of trying to tear Dean or Sam down so they can be 'equal', they should have the boys building each other up. They need to relearn to deal with each as adults once again, as this season they've gone right back into the big/little brother dynamics they know don't work for them. Sam and Dean need to work on respect, trust,honesty, and finally letting go of the resentments and the past. They need to move forward, not fall back.
KELLY
# KELLY 2013-01-21 22:35
Leah, I completely agree with your comments.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-21 23:19
[Deleted misplaced/doubl e post]
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-22 11:11
Quote:
Jo1027-I'm not sure I can but I will give it a shot. I know emotions are running high right now on the show and in the fandom. If you take the Sam haters and Dean haters out of the mix I think most people think that Sam has made mistakes but thought he was doing the right thing, and has since MORE than redeemed himself. Many people including Dean leaning fans have conceded that Dean has pulled some mean crap this year. But we also realize than much of the stuff that has come out of his mouth has been because was hurt at Sam not wanting to be/work with him and didn't make (as far as anyone know) any attempt to look for him. Dean doesn't know (especially post-Purg) how to deal with that so he lashes out at Sam. Sam gets hurt/mad
lashes back......never ending cycle.

Now a lot of weight has been put on the spectre rant. I've said and firmly believe that due to some of the other petty things that people were killing each other over that Dean did not really go around with all these unforgiven, simmering resentments in his daily life. The spectre scoured an already hurt and angry Dean for any speck of a negitive thing that Dean may have ever thought about blew it up and magnified it to a murderous rage. Some people took that as "Well now we REALLY know how Dean feels"

OK my point, if we could just take some of the emotion out of it and agree that these two love and need each other and the biggest issue is not that they need to share big mistakes but learn how to deal with each other like adults not the children they once were. They have both been contributing to this. I think Dean had started to think of Sam as an equal in past seasons and was trying. This year it all went south from the moment Dean came back.

If a married couple are having huge problems you wouldn't advise them to balance out the mistakes of the past so that they could be equals. That would never work. Any friendship, any partnership has to have a mutual respect and the ability to forgive. I think Dean (and Sam too) have that capability.

Sorry that was the best I can do to explain how I feel. Probably didn't change any minds but I feel better.
In theory and in the real world, I would agree with you. However, this is Winchester World where Dean's mode of discussion is "no chick-flick moments". Given that, is there any way that you think Dean will forgive Sam for the things Sam has done wrong? Or even talk about them? Dean still holds Sam going to Stanford against him.
Dean making a huge mistake in trusting Benny would maybe at least give him a better understanding of how Sam was able to trust Ruby. I don't think it will lead to any sort of discussion between them but it might make Dean back off on the constant snide comments.
This is where I'm coming from with my wish that Dean be wrong about Benny. I understand your POV, I'm just not sure that it will work.
It doesn't have to be a balance of who did what IMO. But I think there does have to be some understanding there which is sorely lacking right now.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-21 22:15
I feel like you do Jo. Sam can't ever be an equal partner is he is always wrong about which supernatural being to trust. If Sam must always listen to Dean and not be able to trust his own judgment, then he is not an equal, he is a subordinate. Dean has convinced himself he is the be all and end all of the right and wrong on a hunt. That kind of "partnership" can't last. It's not equal and it's wrong for both Sam and Dean.

(Edited by Alice - You've crossed the line in character bashing here. As you know, Sam vs. Dean is not tolerated).

Sam deserves to be respected and trusted. If he isn't good enough to judge supernatural creatures then he DOES need a new line of work, one where he isn't constantly being made to feel like a failure and an incompetent who will never be as good as his brother.

The Amelia story wasn't told as strongly as I would have liked, but at least she came to make Sam feel like a good person who didn't constantly screw up and who would never be good enough and who can never make up for his mistakes.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-21 23:07
I can't.......Oh never mind, nothing I said said has any validty of course!!

How dare I even suggest that things could be mended between then.

Ok you win. I am sorry I tried to make a sincere comment only to have you come back with this angry and cynical comment. Oh yeah, and mostly untrue.

I am so tired of these bitter and one- sided comments. I am going to take a break from this website. It is so discouraging.


And percysowner, I may not have always agreed with you but I always treated you with respect and tried to see your viewpoint.
emmau
# emmau 2013-01-21 23:16
I'm sorry you feel so discouraged, Leah. Sometimes taking a break is definitely helpful. I take them myself. Discussion boards can be hard places sometimes. I hope you return soon. You are a balanced, rational, and polite voice here, and I am sure I am not alone in enjoying your comments.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-01-21 23:21
Quote:
I am so tired of these bitter and one- sided comments.
I feel you, Leah. I have taken breaks before, too.
If you do take a break - know that I'll miss your contributions! :/

For the record, I think you're comment was spot-on. I love your heart for this show - for both brothers - as well as your desire to see them reconciled, and the fandom to be united. Unfortunately, many can't seem to "take some of the emotion out of it," as you say, especially if those emotions are negative. Sometimes taking a step back is necessary. :/
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-22 04:33
Hey Leah, please don't take a break as I value your thoughts. It is important to have an a opinion that is balanced and thought out such as your are on this site, it helps keep perspective. Sometimes emotive issues get the better of us and fans respond in the heat of the moment. There are many of us that feel like you do, so you really are not alone in this.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-01-22 05:40
Please do not stop commenting.If you notice percysowner responded to Jo and not to you.She did not come back at you she was agreeing with Jo...But please don't stop commenting
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-22 06:52
Thank you.
Leah
# Leah 2013-01-22 07:40
Which is what bothered me. The dismissive and condescending tone that accompanies some of the comments and that my answer to Jo wasn't worthy of consideration.

Thanks anonymousN and to Emmau, Bamboo, Kelly, and Kaz1- for your kind thoughts but a break is needed if for nothing else then to gain some perspective. I love you guys.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-01-22 08:10
(Edited by Alice) - Percysowner, this is WAY out of line and not respectful at all. When your temper gets flaring, suddenly my Reported Comments Inbox gets filled.

You are not allowed to post for the next 24 hours. You need a cooling off period. Please come back tomorrow with your temper in check. If you post in the next 24 hours, (effective 1/22, 11 am EST until 1/23 11 am EST), your comment will be unpublished.
Alice
# Alice 2013-01-22 10:55
Leah, I do apologize for not monitoring this thread as close as I should have. These darned holiday weekends.

I really think your issue is with one poster, and I've gotten several complaints about that person. She's been kicked off these boards for 24 hours, and trust me when I say every one of her comments will be closely monitored from now on.

Please send me a message via "Contact Us" if you want to discuss further via email. This is not supposed to be a hostile board, and your comments have always been wonderful.

Also, and this message is to everyone, I'm very close to eliminating the "Tree" structure of the comments and making every comment individual. From now on, if you're replying specifically to someone, make sure you put that person's name in the beginning of your message, or quote their comment. Thank you.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2013-01-20 20:21
Personally, I'd be happy if both Benny and Amelia never returned to the series. I don't like either character.
Benny is a vampire, period. He will eventually do what all vampires do, it's just a matter of time. If that happens it is not on Dean. Just as Amy was a monster and would hold true to what she is innately, so is Benny.
If they do bring Benny back, hopefully, it will have to be Dean who kills him and finally admits he's not infallible. Because, guess what, he's not.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-21 01:15
If Cas cannot remember his meetings with Naomi then how is he remembering her instructions?
E
# E 2013-01-21 09:13
I think its supposed to be like she's planting suggestions directly into his brain, and he then thinks that they are his own thoughts. It's like brain washing. I am finding this storyline very interesting; how is Cas going to fight against being used when he isn't even aware that he's being used? It's deliciously insidious.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-21 09:30
Hi E, I was thinking it could be a two way street. If Dean and Sam cotton on, then they can do some manipulating of their own.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-21 09:32
Not that poor old Cas should be used this way you understand, but it is something worth considering.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-21 09:40
Imagine if they intentionally lied to Cas regarding the Angel tablet, like having a conversation in front of Cas that Crowley had cracked the code. Surely this would set the angels against the demons; leaving Dean and Sam free to pursue their goal in relative peace. Full of holes I know, but it's nice to play. Not sure how many angels are left though. Didn't even know that Noami existed so maybe there are more levels of angel heaven than we anticipated.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-01-21 09:43
As an aside, has anyone noticed the beer lid thing. Just like the reappearing clock, the boys make a point of twisting the lids of their beer bottles and tossing them in different places and in different ways, I started noticing it when Dean was giving Sam mechanics 101 way back when.