WARNING!!!!!  If you haven't seen "Citizen Fang," read no further!  There will be discussion and spoilers and other sundries, and it will ruin your whole hiatus if you cheat and read this before watching.  Probably...  But, if you've watched, then enter and speculate with me.

Wow, it's kind of hard to believe the midseason hiatus is upon us already, isn't it?  And the show isn't coming back till the 16th of January!  I was under the impression that it was the 9th, so this is very disappointing!  Well, I'll just have to keep myself busy with all the WFB goodness we'll cook up for everyone!  (Plug!)  Anyway, let's get right down to the most important thing about tonight's episode, and that is:

It Totally Ruined My Sam Theory!
So, I had this theory I really liked, and that was the whole relationship with Amelia was false.  Sam manufactured it as a coping mechanism due to a mental break after Dean's disappearance.  Everything after Sam and Amelia slept together wasn't real.  But it looks like I was way off, huh?  I guess Amelia is real after all.  Dang, I was really having fun with that whole "it's all in Sam's head" idea.  But, when you play the game of speculation, you win or you're spectacularly wrong.  So it's all real and Amelia is back in the picture.  Won't Dean be kicking himself if his fake text (more on that later) is the reason Sam and Amelia get back together and why Sam leaves for a normal life?  Not that I really see that happening, but that would be ironic. 

I have to say, too, that I'm relieved Don is a good guy.  His scene at the bar was amazing.  "The only person who knows what's best for Amelia is Amelia."  YES!  Don, that is perfect.  And he didn't like Sam, but he didn't have to like Sam, of course he wouldn't.  But he respected Amelia's choice, and he even bought Sam a beer.  I hate it in romantic comedies or whatever when someone has to choose between two people and one is super perfect and right and the other is a super horrible person.  It's another reason why I'm glad they chose to respect the audience and show that gee, just because a person is a good human being doesn't necessarily mean that they're the right person for you, or that you have to love them.  Show us why Sam is the person who's right for Amelia.  Or show us why Don is the right person for Amelia.  But please show us quickly because love triangles bore me after too long, to be perfectly blunt.  I know "The Vampire Diaries" is a very popular show and people love it, but it's like 85 seasons of love triangle, and I cannot handle that.  Which, I'm sure you're all glad you know that about me now.  Moving on...

But I'm still not sure I think everything is 100% real with Sam and his flashbacks.  It still feels like Sam is disjointed, not acting like his usual self.  Perhaps there is something at work behind the scenes still, something that will be revealed in the second half of the season.  I just sometimes have a hard time following the Sam flashbacks, where they fit into the Sam and Amelia story, and how I'm supposed to process them.  Maybe this is on purpose, keeping us off balance like this.  Maybe Sam's feeling disjointed, not sure about what's going on in his life and how he feels about Dean being gone then being back, having a year off, if he could let himself have something good with Amelia, so it's coming through in how he's interacting with Dean, and we're seeing it play out in his flashbacks.

What About Benny?
I really am enjoying the addition of Benny to the show, especially the morally ambiguous area he occupies.  He's a monster and has been a monster in the past, but he's not killing right now.  Not until pushed to do so by Martin, who just couldn't accept that not all monsters are bad monsters.  He's season 1 Dean before he met Lenore and...Ty Olsson as another vampire, ha!  But now Benny HAS killed someone, even if in self-defense.  Do you think Sam is going to understand that and let it lie or will he want to go after Benny?  And Benny was having a hard time fighting off the bloodlust, so do you think he held off after he killed Martin?  Thanks to Alice's DVR (thanks, Alice and your DVR!), she was able to tell me that when Martin was lying on the ground, there was a bloody knife next to him and it looked like his throat had been cut.  So Benny probably cut him instead of gnawing on his throat.  Still, that was an awful lot of blood on the floor.  It would be difficult to let it lie, wouldn't it?  And is this the last we're gonna see of Benny?  He's going deep underground now, but I really hope he'll be back.  He always raises some interesting moral questions when he's around.  Plus, he's just so cuddly!  I want to hug him!

The Brother Situation
There were some major "ouch" moments tonight, weren't there?  Let's start with the text Dean sent Sam.  Wow, that was pretty harsh, Dean.  I know he wanted to get Sam out of the way, but yeah, that was brutal.  Though, it was incredibly effective and rather smart.  And I found it very amusing that Sam just totally up and left Martin in the woods, at night, alone, while hunting a vampire.  That was kind of hilarious.  Still, Dean played Sam, and Sam has every right to be upset about it.  But Dean knows how dangerous his brother is, and he's trying to protect Benny because Sam and Martin forced his hand, so he was in a bad situation, too.  I mean, Martin did knock him out, and he and Sam handcuffed Dean and left him there, so they kind of played Dean, too.

Then there was the whole exchange where Dean said, “Every relationship I’ve ever had has gone to crap at some point.  But the one thing I can say about Benny is he has never let me down.” And Sam countered with, "Must be nice to find someone you trust after all these years."  YIKES.  Okay, so, yes, these two are worlds apart right now.  I think Sam was lost when Dean disappeared, and he was jsut beginning to fins his footing again when Don reappeared and then Dean reappeared, and now he's lost again and doesn't know how to interact with his brother anymore.  He's totally uncertain about the direction his life is taking, and he's lashing out at Dean.  And when Dean came back and found that Sam had this whole other life, he didn't know where he was gonna fit into it, and he's afraid there won't be a spot in Sam's life for him anymore, so he's lashing out at Sam.  But i honestly, 100% believe that this discord is a good thing, and here's why: in the past, they both pushed things down and swallowed their feelings so much that it was eating at them from the inside.  They never really resolved their issues with each other.  And Purgatory has made Dean much more blunt and honest, and living away from hunting for a year has made Sam more inclined to push back and air his grievances, so while it hurts right now, it's good that they're putting these issues out into the open instead of eating them again.  Because they're gonna end up talking about them, working through them, and it's gonna make their relationship stronger.  They're gonna grow as people and as brothers, and though it will be painful (this is "Supernatural," after all) until they get there, they're gonna get there.

Wow, this is long tonight.  Okay, one more thing before I go to bullet points, and that is...

A New Crazy Theory!
When one theory dies, another is born in its place!  I just LOVE having theories about this show, and this one is based off the promo for the next episode.  Here goes: the CIAngels are working for/with Crowley.  Castiel would be able to sense if she was a demon, so I don't think Naomi is an actual demon.  She's an angel.  But Castiel had never been to that part of heaven.  Maybe that's because it isn't heaven at all, just someplace meant to look and seem like heaven.  Crowley is the one most interested in the tablets so far, so having a way to keep tabs on the Winchesters and their tablet progress makes perfect sense.  Maybe Crowley is even responsible for getting Castiel out of Purgatory.  He realized he needed Cass to spy for him, so he got Cass out.

Okay, bullet point time.  This speculation is long enough already!
  • Ty Olsson has played two vampires on this show, and both of them have been bartenders/waiters.  Conspiracy?
  • I knew I'd seen Elizabeth somewhere before, and I had!  She was the mother in "The Kids Are Alright."  Incidentally, I think "Supernatural's" actor recycling is fun.  It's neat to see people again after a few years, and if they did a good job the first time around, why not have them back?
  • Am I the only one who thought they should have just killed Desmond, tailed Benny for a few days, and seen if the bodies had stopped dropping?  Wouldn't that have been a good plan?
  • I liked Martin and was happy he was back, but then he went all righteous "monsters are bad no matter what" hunter and forced Benny to kill him.  Which, bad Martin!  No!  No! 
  • When Benny put his head on the bar, I got rather emotional about it.  I should have known Benny would be able to handle it, though.
  • Dean singing along in the car is the best!
  • Also funny?  Jensen's wrestling rugburn was in full effect this episode!
  • I adore it when the show gets to use "Credence Clearwater Revival."  It fits so well.
  • The show looked really good tonight, from the lighting and sets to the directing.  It was really moody and atmospheric.
And that's a wrap on "Supernatural" for 2012.  Wow, it's weird to say that.  So, what did you think about tonight's episode?  What about my new crazy theory?  I'm pleased that I have over a month before I'm proven wrong!  Or right!  Just a brief reminder that while this is a free commenting zone and off-topic comments won't be moved, please still be respectful and polite.  You're allowed to voice your opinions as long as you don't disrespect anyone else while doing so.  Thanks, and let's start speculating!

EDIT: Wow, it's late, and I apologize for posting this before I was done.  If some of you saw a half-finished article with no header picture, I am sorry about that!

Comments  

Grace232
# Grace232 2012-12-06 00:46
Ha! Me too. After those dreamy weirdly lit flashbacks last week, I was convinced that the relationship was in Sam's head. So wrong! Oh well. I suspect the Amelia story will be finished up in the next episode - Sam has said a lot of things to indicate that he knows now that it was really not the right life for him - only seeing what he wanted to see, etc., and will now go back to hunting recommitted to it. Just a thought (because my thoughts were so on track about Amelia before).

I confess this was not one of my favorite episodes - partly because I am never thrilled when the brothers are apart for nearly the entire episode and partly because it does not seem like much of a cliffhanger for a 6 week break. Yes, the brothers are mad at each other and not talking. What else is new - that as been the case for 9 episodes. Still looking forward to seeing how they get through it and get back to the business at hand when the show returns, though.
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2012-12-06 00:50
Just because Amelia is real doesn't mean Sam couldn't have had some kind of breakdown. He is still soooooooooo on edge. Eerie how bi-polar he is acting and Dean seems to be the calmer one. Even though he was in Purgatory. But I guess it 'purified' him and he paid his penance so is more at peace internally. Still surprised he hasn't lashed out at Sam as 'real' Dean though. He has to have abandonment issues about that yet. Still so many mysteries. LOVED the episode.

Benny has endeared himself to me already. I found myself with a tear in my eye when he laid his head on the counter. A tear for a vampire! What the.....
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-06 01:08
You could still be right Ardeospina. It looks from the trailer for the next episode that Sam is back with Amelia but only because he is standing in front of a house. And that don't prove much.

I loved this episode so much. Everything everyone did seemed to have a logical reason behind it even if the event proved them wrong.

I will be back watching in the spring - I always was - and looking forward to it since I can see a resolution to all this in our near future (probably not the first episode back though) so, for me, I don't ever feel the need for cliffhangers, this will do just fine.

EDIT: Oops, it isn't a house, it is a motel. Even better.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-06 01:13
Well, we got our first broad hint at a breakdown when Sam credited Amelia with saving him.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this episode. We were set up for some big emotional showdown between the brothers, but it didn't really cut loose.
E
# E 2012-12-06 08:42
I also noticed when Amelia confronted Sam at the bar he looked more than surprised, maybe even terrified? Wonder what that is about?
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-06 01:21
I also loved the respect everyone had for everyone elses abilities - particularly Dean actually coming out and saying it about Sam. It added a whole lot of edge to the story since we knew for sure that just about anybody who really decided to kill anybody else would be able to do it.

Like a Mexican standoff (I hope that is politically correct, apologies if not) without the guns.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-06 02:52
Alright... watching SUpernatural, before you had off to work, is NOT a good idea.
Need to get this out of my system:

First off: This was awesome.
Absolutely top notch acting.
Great visuals and it twisted and turned and you never knew, where it was heading, right until the end.

Let´s break it down:

Dean:


Man, what a mean bitch you have become in Purgatory.
Playing on your brother´s fear of losing someone? Using Jess like this? That was low.
It was clever, but low.

We tend to forget how sneaky and clever you can be and that all that: "Hey I´m just a pie loving grunt" is nothing but an act.

Question: Did you try get to get Sam out of the way for his sake, or for Benny´s?

Sam´s a little rusty after a year off. And Benny... well he´s been constantly fighting the last 50 years.

Sam: Gosh, Sammy... I´m really not sure, you should be hunting right now. Could you honestly be more lost and unsure of yourself?

Putting someone on Benny? Not the worst idea, out there.
After all, that guy has some leverage on your brother. You don´t know him. He´s a vamp.
But Martin? Mostly ok Martin?
That, dear Sammy, was stupid!

And then siding with Martin, not trusting your brother, not working WITH you brother?

Man, you two are killing me!

Oh and.. panicking... ok... but leaving Martin behind without a word? Whatever is going on in your head... you neither are "ok" nor even mostly ok.

Martin: Mostly ok? Uhm... nope... NOT ok!

Going after Benny? Alright... yes, I get it.
Using an innocent civilian, just because you just dove off the next cliff mentally?
Injuring her, to get her great grandfather to EAT her?

The Fuck?!

Sorry, Martin, I liked you, but you are not seeing me cry here!

Benny:

Can we just have a minute here, to appreciate how absolutely, awesomely, beyond perfect Ty Olsson´s acting was in this?

Wow, what a treat!

And heartbreaking.
If there were any innocent persons in this episode, it was Elisabeth... and to a lesser degree, Benny.

Should have gotten rid of Desmond right after the first kill?

Oh yes, you absolutely should have.

But wanting a calm, normal life?
Family?
A place to rest, some resemblance of safety?

Yeah man, I get it.
You and Sammy should have a chat.

Benny, you made me bawl my eyes out.
I might just have fallen a little in love with you.


Thoughts:

Oh... wow...

I mean... just wow...

And that dear children, happens, when you don´t listen to each other.
It might all have ended well.
It might all have ended with all of them good and alive and safe.

If only.... you two had made the decision to work together.
You know, that Shit hits the proverbial fan, when you are apart, right?

Sam, had you backed Dean, and worked with him, instead of letting Martin knock him out and leaving him.... yeah... none of that would have happened.
Btw, Martin knocked out your brother!

And Dean? Your brother gave you the time you needed.. and had you just asked him, to come with you, to kill that vamp... he would have come with you.

Oh boys...

Where you really happy driving all alone on your car, singing along, Dean?
And Sam, I know you weren´t happy... but yeah... drinking wont help.

Can´t you two just trust each other? At least a little.

Well, Dean. Good call, driving Sam into a panic and leaving mostly ok Martin all alone out there, going crazy.
Great idea.

Now your new brother is somewhere out there, doing god knows what. Having lost his lifeline again.
Happy?

And Sammy, glad you´re back with Amelia?

Have fun. Oh wait, no you wont.





I loved it. It was fast paced, looked great, had me on the edge of my seat and crying.
First because Sam and Dean are so incredibly stupid sometimes... and then because Benny is just so heartbreaking.

But is it just me, or has Dean become one cold SOB?
Him and Sam are like polar opposites right now.
Sam all lost and confused and Dean just straight forward, ready to sacrifice one or two people along the way.

Well... damn!
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-06 03:03
Nice comment Fluffy, you hit all the points perfectly. I like to think of Dean as super focused instead of a cold sob but why quibble, petty much the same thing :-)
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 13:04
I get soulless Sam vibes from Dean this season, or maybe The End Dean?
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-06 03:25
Quote:
Sam: Gosh, Sammy... I´m really not sure, you should be hunting right now. Could you honestly be more lost and unsure of yourself?

Putting someone on Benny? Not the worst idea, out there.
After all, that guy has some leverage on your brother. You don´t know him. He´s a vamp.
But Martin? Mostly ok Martin?
That, dear Sammy, was stupid!

And then siding with Martin, not trusting your brother, not working WITH you brother?

Man, you two are killing me!

Oh and.. panicking... ok... but leaving Martin behind without a word? Whatever is going on in your head... you neither are "ok" nor even mostly ok.

Martin: Mostly ok? Uhm... nope... NOT ok!

Going after Benny? Alright... yes, I get it.
Using an innocent civilian, just because you just dove off the next cliff mentally?
Injuring her, to get her great grandfather to EAT her?

The Fuck?!

Sorry, Martin, I liked you, but you are not seeing me cry here!
Hi Fluffy, I agree with your assessment on Sam and Martin. I guess once we see Martin behaves we know exactly that Sam too is not okay. His anxiety and agitation is worrying. Now, this I believe that Sam is nearing the brink of sanity here. While he looked perfectly fine in his flashback.

Don't you think it's weird that Sam who supposed to be out of his mind (the writer's word, not mine) with loss looks perfectly fine in his flashback. While Sam in real time looks too unstable?

Is this intentional or just the writing for Sam's characterizatio n is all over the place?

Dean's the reason (supposed to be) behind Sam's world imploded scene, right? Now that Dean's back why does Sam looks worse than he was in FBs?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-06 03:55
Quote:

Hi Fluffy, I agree with your assessment on Sam and Martin. I guess once we see Martin behaves we know exactly that Sam too is not okay. His anxiety and agitation is worrying. Now, this I believe that Sam is nearing the brink of sanity here. While he looked perfectly fine in his flashback.

Don't you think it's weird that Sam who supposed to be out of his mind (the writer's word, not mine) with loss looks perfectly fine in his flashback. While Sam in real time looks too unstable?

Is this intentional or just the writing for Sam's characterization is all over the place?

Dean's the reason (supposed to be) behind Sam's world imploded scene, right? Now that Dean's back why does Sam looks worse than he was in FBs?
Sam this season has extreme trouble, as in EXTREME, with the thought of losing people.

That scene, where he drives to Amelia, was a perfect mirror, to the one, where he drives to help Dean, when he was cleaning the nest with Benny.

Down to the fact, that he tried to call and couldn´t reach anybody.

Sam is afraid! He is shaken down to his core and whenever there is a remote possibility, someone he loves is in danger, he flips and spins into a panic attack.

When Dean wasn´t around, and he thought him dead, it was ok.
Amelia was with him, he had her in his sight, knew, where she was and what she was doing.
Dean was out of the picture (as in.. dead and safe in heaven).
He was OK.

But as soon as people are NOT close to him, and he hasn´t an eye on them and there is even the slightest hint of danger and be it a stubbed toe... he freaks.
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-06 04:38
Quote:
When Dean wasn´t around, and he thought him dead, it was ok.

Dean was out of the picture (as in.. dead and safe in heaven).
.

Now, I am going back to questioning, If Sam thought that Dean's dead. He should be very happy that Dean's back. Ecstatic and joyful. But let's compare that hug in epi.01 with the hug in Lazarus Rising, in Like a Virgin.

Sam doesn't look too happy that Dean's back. He even says "I don't have to Dean. I know it's you."

That doesn't make sense. If Sam thought that Dean's dead, seeing him back SHOULD arouse suspicion. Is Sam still a hunter or what? Shapeshifters, Leviathans, Ghouls, Demons could have resurrect Dean back from the dead.

If he thought Dean's in heaven, he should be suspicious that the Angels resurrect him just like what they did to Adam. If Sam thought Dean's dean and in heaven then he should be suspicious and demanding proof then deliriously happy when he knows that Dean's really Dean.

It doesn't add up. Sam looks like he is hiding something in that first episode. You can have a rewatch and just look at his eyes, and his body language. Sam is agitated and nervous and awkward. Not someone whose supposed to be happy after they found out that Dean's back from dead.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-06 04:52
Quote:
Quote:
When Dean wasn´t around, and he thought him dead, it was ok.

Dean was out of the picture (as in.. dead and safe in heaven).
.

Now, I am going back to questioning, If Sam thought that Dean's dead. He should be very happy that Dean's back. Ecstatic and joyful. But let's compare that hug in epi.01 with the hug in Lazarus Rising, in Like a Virgin.

Sam doesn't look too happy that Dean's back. He even says "I don't have to Dean. I know it's you."

That doesn't make sense. If Sam thought that Dean's dead, seeing him back SHOULD arouse suspicion. Is Sam still a hunter or what? Shapeshifters, Leviathans, Ghouls, Demons could have resurrect Dean back from the dead.

If he thought Dean's in heaven, he should be suspicious that the Angels resurrect him just like what they did to Adam. If Sam thought Dean's dean and in heaven then he should be suspicious and demanding proof then deliriously happy when he knows that Dean's really Dean.

It doesn't add up. Sam looks like he is hiding something in that first episode. You can have a rewatch and just look at his eyes, and his body language. Sam is agitated and nervous and awkward. Not someone whose supposed to be happy after they found out that Dean's back from dead.
Not exactly.
Sam finally had all of his demons kind of under control.
He had it managed.
Dean coming back, means nothing but all the work, he put into putting himself together again, that place, he brought himself to. The CALM he managed to build... shattering.

It´s the rebirth of all the fear, and the loss and everything he´s been trying to get away from.

He happy, yes. But I think, Sam knew very well, that, while this was a good thing, it wasn´t good for him.

It´s kinda funny... Sam´s the one who got more of PTSD... while Dean was the one spending his year fighting.
Kristina
# Kristina 2012-12-06 15:51
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
When Dean wasn´t around, and he thought him dead, it was ok.

Dean was out of the picture (as in.. dead and safe in heaven).
.

Now, I am going back to questioning, If Sam thought that Dean's dead. He should be very happy that Dean's back. Ecstatic and joyful. But let's compare that hug in epi.01 with the hug in Lazarus Rising, in Like a Virgin.

Sam doesn't look too happy that Dean's back. He even says "I don't have to Dean. I know it's you."

That doesn't make sense. If Sam thought that Dean's dead, seeing him back SHOULD arouse suspicion. Is Sam still a hunter or what? Shapeshifters, Leviathans, Ghouls, Demons could have resurrect Dean back from the dead.

If he thought Dean's in heaven, he should be suspicious that the Angels resurrect him just like what they did to Adam. If Sam thought Dean's dean and in heaven then he should be suspicious and demanding proof then deliriously happy when he knows that Dean's really Dean.

It doesn't add up. Sam looks like he is hiding something in that first episode. You can have a rewatch and just look at his eyes, and his body language. Sam is agitated and nervous and awkward. Not someone whose supposed to be happy after they found out that Dean's back from dead.
Not exactly.
Sam finally had all of his demons kind of under control.
He had it managed.
Dean coming back, means nothing but all the work, he put into putting himself together again, that place, he brought himself to. The CALM he managed to build... shattering.

It´s the rebirth of all the fear, and the loss and everything he´s been trying to get away from.

He happy, yes. But I think, Sam knew very well, that, while this was a good thing, it wasn´t good for him.

It´s kinda funny... Sam´s the one who got more of PTSD... while Dean was the one spending his year fighting.
I totally agree with you here. I was thinking the same thing. I actually just re-watched Blood Brother and Sam runs off to Amelia exactly the same as he did to Dean when he was in Benny's old nest. To me those 2 times seem to be the only times when Sam shows any emotions. I remember thinking after the first few episodes of the season, that Sam is behaving like he did when he was soulless. He seems to be getting a little better, but only just.

I don't think its that Sam isn't happy to see Dean, I think it is more that he dealt with Dean being gone, dead, whatever. Sam didn't think Dean was ever going to come back and he grieved (even though we haven't seen it, I know whole different topic) and moved on. So to me it feels like Sam is now trying to not get to close again because when Dean leaves or dies or whatever again (because its inevitable in their line of work) it will destroy Sam.

Now I know there are major issues that everybody is pointing out about what we don't know and all of that. I am strickly going by what we have been told thus far and also taking all of that info at face value. I am in the camp that believes there is more going on, such as angel manipulation etc., so I think we don't have the whole story yet.
st50
# st50 2012-12-06 19:20
Well put, Fluffy 2107...
And remember the birthday cake scene? Amelia out of sight? Poor Sammy just can't take another loss.
And just the THOUGHT of another possible loss has him freaked. I agree. Nicely said. :-)
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-06 02:59
Anyone that thinks Martin is a sane and capable hunter is ...? probably needs to think and rewatch again.

Martin is definitely not stable, as is Sam. Martin is agitated, anxious, his mannerism is not different with loony Martin in Sam Interrupted. The way he slams and hits the ice box is worrying. His whole demeanor screams crazy. I believe even Sam knows Martin is crazy and not that sane. Definitely not the right guy to trail after a vampire.

My question still the same. Why Sam is so desperate to proof Dean wrong that he sent crazy martin to trail after Benny? Is Sam that desperate to proof his worthiness in front of Dean? Is Sam that desperate to take revenge? because Dean had killed Amy, his friend, he wants to proof that Benny too deserve killing. Sam is driven by revenge before it's not that far reach to fall back into that.

The problem still persist. They need to show me (at least) Sam's breakdown. I definitely need to see how much Sam needed saving. All I am saying (from what we've been shown on screen) Sam could tell bullshit when he said his world imploded. I can't see him on the brink of desolation or even a breakdown. IKWYDLS told a pretty picture and a believable scenes about Sam breaking down. S7 Hello Cruel World and Plucky and Repo Man gave us awesome screen depicting Sam's mental state.

NOT EVEN ONCE in these 9 episodes I/we see Sam even remotely close to those scenes I mentioned above. Why?
If they so insist that something's wrong with Sam that made him 'ran away' and needed saving, They should at least put those scenes out there.

Put out or shut up, I'll say. If they don't intend to show Sam's horrible state that led to him running away, then they shut just make Sam shut up about saying he was a mess. Sam Was Not A Mess.

Please if anyone can show me any scene (other then when he hit the dog), that indicate that Sam was a mess during his many (useless) flashback.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-06 11:36
Quote:
If they so insist that something's wrong with Sam that made him 'ran away' and needed saving, They should at least put those scenes out there.

Put out or shut up, I'll say. If they don't intend to show Sam's horrible state that led to him running away, then they shut just make Sam shut up about saying he was a mess. Sam Was Not A Mess.

Please if anyone can show me any scene (other then when he hit the dog), that indicate that Sam was a mess during his many (useless) flashback.
Couldn't agree more w/you, Kaj! Put up or shut up!
EireneS
# EireneS 2012-12-06 03:02
Laughed several times while reading your speculations and comments. Good review and nice sense of humor.
First question -what rug burn?? I noticed Dean had an abrasion or something on his face-is this what you were talking about?
Second-Yep, you had a doozy of a speculation of Sam and Amelia's relationship. But the story isn't over yet, so there might still be some truth to your speculation still to come.
I enjoyed this episode. Found myself swearing at Sam for leaving Martin out in the wilderness with a vampire prowling around. Bet Sam doesn't take any blame for Martin's death-which shows how much he is affected by Amelia and their relationship.
I like Dean's toughness since he's come back from Purgatory. He is not flinching when he needs to deal with situations. He obviously wants Benny's friendship, but I wonder how he will let the fact that Benny killed Martin be settled in his head-I know he said that Martin deserved it, but now that Benny has fed again, doesn't Dean have any doubts about Benny being able to stop feeding?
And how in the world did Amelia see the professional hunter Sam in the dark in the back of her house? What will their meeting in the bar bring to the situation?
This was a good episode-sorry that Martin turned into a zealot hunter and got killed but thought the action between Dean and Benny to be enjoyable and the actions between Dean and Sam to be interesting and stimulating.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-06 11:23
The rug burn story is just the funniest thing out there. Jensen, Jared and Misha were 'fight training' (read: horsing around like a bunch of idjits) in one of their hotel rooms and at least one of them got rug burn and apparently another one had an elbow pop and possibly 2 of them got cracked ribs (depending on which story you have heard).

I love these people :D

It is mentioned in one of the con videos.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-06 03:15
This is going to be fierce quick and random (and most probably grammatically and structurally shocking) cos I gotta get to work (this is why I hate the day change!).

This episode was really clever in terms of; we still don’t know what the truth is. We still don’t know if Benny can be trusted. We can’t say unequivocally that Benny was not killing the people in that place I can’t spell in this episode. We didn’t see Desmond kill anyone so are we meant to just take Benny’s word for it? There's a whole lot of blind trust expected from a whole lot of people in this episode. Were Martin and Sam right in their thinking? Should Martin trust what Dean said when he doesn’t know him? I mean, Martin learned that Dean and Benny are friends so logically, as per Martin, Dean’s ability to judge the situation impartially is compromised. One of the first things Dean said when he came back from Purgatory was that he wasn’t the same (or he was different or something like that) so can we, should we, or anyone, trust him wholesale? Are we trusting Dean and his judgment just because he’s Dean?

We’re meant to blame Martin for his own death because he went after Benny yet Dean went after Desmond so would Dean have been responsible for his own death if Desmond (was his name Desmond?) killed him? What if Desmond wasn’t the one doing the killing? Did we see him kill anyone? (That’s a genuine question. The episode is on very early here.) Okay, Dean and Benny are being written very similar in terms of their feeling toward ‘family’ being a motivating factor (although I’ll be looking at Dean’s interpretation of ‘family’ at a more awake time) and their common bond of Purgatory. However, as Sam said, neither he nor Martin know Benny so by what criteria should they trust him?

Okay, what exactly did Sam do wrong in this episode? I’ve read around and going by the reaction of some posters out there if he’d killed and eaten a white, virgin baby kitten onscreen he’d be considered in a more positive light. Now, I know there are some posters who will always hate Sam regardless of what he does or does not do but I can’t help but laugh at some of the comments out there this time!

Genuinely, I’m at a loss as to what Sam did wrong. He told Dean what he was doing. He told Martin to lay off. He gave Dean a chance to find out what happened. He wasn’t going to risk innocent lives (and as he said, ‘You know how these things turn out for us’) based on someone’s word. He was torn between doing what he felt was the right thing with Amelia and what he wanted. In the end he took himself out of the picture so that Amelia could decide (and how sweet was that little grin when he saw that she was happy??), only to drop everything when he (erroneously) believed she was in danger. He didn’t tear Dean a new one for what he did. It seems that Sam’s only ‘mistakes’ in this episode were to go to the assistance of the woman he loves and not risk innocent lives. Oh, and of course, he didn’t do what Dean told him to do. You know, I like this Sam and for me, this is the best, and most independent, he’s been written for a while. He’s not willing to be Dean’s nodding dog. He’s not willing to put up with Dean’s sanctimonious bullshit so go Sam!

Let’s have a quick look at Dean, shall we? Dean’s biggest flaw in this episode (and for a while) is that he believes that everyone should do what he says, just because he says so. I don’t know if it’s an older brother thing or what but God, we saw it in spades tonight! He wants everyone to cast aside logic and just go on his word. However, as was said earlier, Dean is different after Purgatory. He’s just as secretive as Sam was in season 4. He’s just as capable of only seeing a self-serving truth. He’s telling Sam only what he wants to about Purgatory (and Dean has told Sam next to nothing about him and Benny in Purgatory). It’s so telling that he only trusts Benny because he’s the one person that never let him down. So these people (or vampires) aren’t being judged in relation to what they do in the mainstream, just what they did in the past. He trusts Benny because of Purgatory. He doesn’t trust anyone else because of what they did in the past. (Dean, this ‘new start’ shite you were spouting in past seasons really is just that, isn’t it’ shite? And if Dean considers people’s past actions to be the defining factor in what’s dictating trust, how can he trust himself?) Dean trusts Benny because of Purgatory so he’s willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, because of their shared history I don’t think that Dean is capable of looking at Benny impartially any more than Sam was capable of looking at Ruby impartially. Add to that, we’ve seen in the past that Dean can have the wool pulled over his eyes just as easily as Sam.

He doesn’t want Sam looking for Benny, why not? Surely if Benny is as clean as Dean proclaims him to be then why, apart from that one time on the dock, have they never met? Surely one way to get Sam to trust Benny would be for them to actually meet. Why didn’t he bring Sam with him when he was going to talk to Benny in this episode? Also, that text message? A new low, Dean, even for you. Not only sending Sam the message but also ensuring that he then couldn’t get in contact with her thus making things worse for him. And you did this a while back so you were planning to manipulate Sam via Amelia for how long? Wow dude, and here you are preaching about trust. Seems like that word, along with ‘new start’ and ‘forgive and forget’ are words that should only apply to everyone else, huh? I wonder if Sam will be able to trust Dean after this episode.

Let’s take a look at what role that text message played in Martin’s death. Dean knew that Sam and Martin were looking for Benny. He knew what impact that message would have on Sam (that's why he sent it). He knew it would make him leave the hunt therefore leaving Martin on his own. Did Dean know that Martin would continue looking for Benny or did he believe that Martin would just head home once left on his own? Did Dean want Benny to kill Martin? I mean, he surely killed in Purgatory to protect Benny so would he do the same thing here?

I’m glad Amelia is real. I’m glad (or I hope) that their relationship is real because, apart from the fact that I would be hugely wary of the shows ability to deal with it if the whole thing existed in Sam's head, Sam deserves a relationship that’s real. He and Amelia might not end up together in the long term but he’ll have experienced something real for the first time in a long time. That can only be a good thing.

Not a bad way to go into the Christmas break.

Thanks Ardeospina.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-06 09:52
Quote:
This is going to be fierce quick and random (and most probably grammatically and structurally shocking) cos I gotta get to work (this is why I hate the day change!).

This episode was really clever in terms of; we still don’t know what the truth is. We still don’t know if Benny can be trusted. We can’t say unequivocally that Benny was not killing the people in that place I can’t spell in this episode. We didn’t see Desmond kill anyone so are we meant to just take Benny’s word for it? There's a whole lot of blind trust expected from a whole lot of people in this episode. Were Martin and Sam right in their thinking? Should Martin trust what Dean said when he doesn’t know him? I mean, Martin learned that Dean and Benny are friends so logically, as per Martin, Dean’s ability to judge the situation impartially is compromised. One of the first things Dean said when he came back from Purgatory was that he wasn’t the same (or he was different or something like that) so can we, should we, or anyone, trust him wholesale? Are we trusting Dean and his judgment just because he’s Dean?

We’re meant to blame Martin for his own death because he went after Benny yet Dean went after Desmond so would Dean have been responsible for his own death if Desmond (was his name Desmond?) killed him? What if Desmond wasn’t the one doing the killing? Did we see him kill anyone? (That’s a genuine question. The episode is on very early here.) Okay, Dean and Benny are being written very similar in terms of their feeling toward ‘family’ being a motivating factor (although I’ll be looking at Dean’s interpretation of ‘family’ at a more awake time) and their common bond of Purgatory. However, as Sam said, neither he nor Martin know Benny so by what criteria should they trust him?

Okay, what exactly did Sam do wrong in this episode? I’ve read around and going by the reaction of some posters out there if he’d killed and eaten a white, virgin baby kitten onscreen he’d be considered in a more positive light. Now, I know there are some posters who will always hate Sam regardless of what he does or does not do but I can’t help but laugh at some of the comments out there this time!

Genuinely, I’m at a loss as to what Sam did wrong. He told Dean what he was doing. He told Martin to lay off. He gave Dean a chance to find out what happened. He wasn’t going to risk innocent lives (and as he said, ‘You know how these things turn out for us’) based on someone’s word. He was torn between doing what he felt was the right thing with Amelia and what he wanted. In the end he took himself out of the picture so that Amelia could decide (and how sweet was that little grin when he saw that she was happy??), only to drop everything when he (erroneously) believed she was in danger. He didn’t tear Dean a new one for what he did. It seems that Sam’s only ‘mistakes’ in this episode were to go to the assistance of the woman he loves and not risk innocent lives. Oh, and of course, he didn’t do what Dean told him to do. You know, I like this Sam and for me, this is the best, and most independent, he’s been written for a while. He’s not willing to be Dean’s nodding dog. He’s not willing to put up with Dean’s sanctimonious bullshit so go Sam!

Let’s have a quick look at Dean, shall we? Dean’s biggest flaw in this episode (and for a while) is that he believes that everyone should do what he says, just because he says so. I don’t know if it’s an older brother thing or what but God, we saw it in spades tonight! He wants everyone to cast aside logic and just go on his word. However, as was said earlier, Dean is different after Purgatory. He’s just as secretive as Sam was in season 4. He’s just as capable of only seeing a self-serving truth. He’s telling Sam only what he wants to about Purgatory (and Dean has told Sam next to nothing about him and Benny in Purgatory). It’s so telling that he only trusts Benny because he’s the one person that never let him down. So these people (or vampires) aren’t being judged in relation to what they do in the mainstream, just what they did in the past. He trusts Benny because of Purgatory. He doesn’t trust anyone else because of what they did in the past. (Dean, this ‘new start’ shite you were spouting in past seasons really is just that, isn’t it’ shite? And if Dean considers people’s past actions to be the defining factor in what’s dictating trust, how can he trust himself?) Dean trusts Benny because of Purgatory so he’s willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, because of their shared history I don’t think that Dean is capable of looking at Benny impartially any more than Sam was capable of looking at Ruby impartially. Add to that, we’ve seen in the past that Dean can have the wool pulled over his eyes just as easily as Sam.

He doesn’t want Sam looking for Benny, why not? Surely if Benny is as clean as Dean proclaims him to be then why, apart from that one time on the dock, have they never met? Surely one way to get Sam to trust Benny would be for them to actually meet. Why didn’t he bring Sam with him when he was going to talk to Benny in this episode? Also, that text message? A new low, Dean, even for you. Not only sending Sam the message but also ensuring that he then couldn’t get in contact with her thus making things worse for him. And you did this a while back so you were planning to manipulate Sam via Amelia for how long? Wow dude, and here you are preaching about trust. Seems like that word, along with ‘new start’ and ‘forgive and forget’ are words that should only apply to everyone else, huh? I wonder if Sam will be able to trust Dean after this episode.

Let’s take a look at what role that text message played in Martin’s death. Dean knew that Sam and Martin were looking for Benny. He knew what impact that message would have on Sam (that's why he sent it). He knew it would make him leave the hunt therefore leaving Martin on his own. Did Dean know that Martin would continue looking for Benny or did he believe that Martin would just head home once left on his own? Did Dean want Benny to kill Martin? I mean, he surely killed in Purgatory to protect Benny so would he do the same thing here?

I’m glad Amelia is real. I’m glad (or I hope) that their relationship is real because, apart from the fact that I would be hugely wary of the shows ability to deal with it if the whole thing existed in Sam's head, Sam deserves a relationship that’s real. He and Amelia might not end up together in the long term but he’ll have experienced something real for the first time in a long time. That can only be a good thing.

Not a bad way to go into the Christmas break.

Thanks Ardeospina.
I agree with everything you said about Sam and Dean. I think if anyone is to blame for Martin's death, it's Dean. He's the one who sent Sam away. Sam may have been able to stop Martin from going after Elisabeth.
I'm also happy to see Sam standing up for himself and not letting Dean dictate how he should act and what he should think. Dean is NOT the ultimate authority on right and wrong as he seems to think he is. And I want him to be wrong about Benny. Sorry, I know a lot you you like Benny but Dean needs to realize he's not always right and this may be how that happens.
I didn't like Sam and Amelia to start the season but seeing how Sam is finally developing a backbone toward Dean, I may just change my mind about that.
Kelly W
# Kelly W 2012-12-06 11:23
I agree 100% with everything you said but I know I am in the minority here. Nevertheless you made really good points.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-11 01:38
The reason I thought Martin deserve to die was not for going after Benny but for threatening his poor innocent granddaughter. That is NOT something Sam OR Dean would have done
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-06 03:29
Oh, before I forget.

The thing with Elizabeth is suspicious. We don't get to see the whole things. Since we see what Dean sees then Dean too don't get to see the whole things.

We still don't know if Benny has really vamp out or is it Elizabeth who really is the monster and she was just protecting Benny. Perhaps Benny kills those people and plant Desmond to get Dean off his back.

We still don't know if Amelia recognizes Sam as her 'lover' or as someone who used to stalk her outside her motel room and house for the past few months.

We still don't know anything, guys. So, keep speculating away!!! :D
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-06 22:27
Quote:


We still don't know if Amelia recognizes Sam as her 'lover' or as someone who used to stalk her outside her motel room and house for the past few months.
Well now that could be interesting. Amelia's real but most of the falshbacks aren't? But I don't think that's where its headed. I've given up on the idea of there being a twist.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-06 03:49
Thanks again Ardeospina. That episode was pretty good TV.

Sam and Dean will work it out but now it kinda makes me wnt to pull out my hair. Just talk already! They are repeating all the old patterns of mistrust and keeping things close to the vest. It come out in angry bursts. And yet they still collaborate and work well together. The involvement of Benny disrupted that. Dean pulled a fast one on Sam and everything went south. It was a crappy thing to do but it did sideline Sam.

The new theory? Angels and demons in league with each other, not beyond the realm of possibility. They might have some common goals. So many theories so few answers, I'm getting a little theory fatigue. I'm not ready to let go of the breakdown possibility for Sam though. There is a lot of missing time to account for.

Loved Benny this episode. His performance was touching. Martin was threatening his loved one so not much sympathy there for him plus they warned him several times to stand down. OK maybe a little sympathy as he was obviously still mentally unstable.

Fast paced and exciting episode! An A- for me.
Mieke T
# Mieke T 2012-12-06 04:25
I won't repeat what I've said many times now and what this episode still didn't resolve, but I have a few questions for al of you.

Carver teased that we would learn the identity of Sam's shady lurker from 8.01. Are we to assume that it was Dean from what happened with the text message or am I getting that wrong?

Second, in the flashback Sam decides to leave Amelia because "it's the right thing" but then in 8.01 he is seen sneaking out of her room, which logically happened after that decision. That confused me. Did he sleep with her after she went back to Don?

I am a little baffled at times with all the high praise the storyline is getting. Critics and fans alike had questions about Sam's odd detached behavior but now that it's clear that everything is quite literal without hidden meaning, those same critics (not necesarily on this site) and fans seem to have forgotten about their apprehension. As if the fact that the show is choosing not to deal with this strange behavior in itself is an explanation for the inconsistent behavior.

There are still a lot of assumptions we have to make. I hope they play out at some point.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-06 07:34
Interesting review, I enjoyed reading it. I found the Benny storyline of this episode very compelling, it actually made me feel sorry for Benny when he realised that he couldn't have a home, or a family, and when he was ready to sacrifice himself for Elizabeth. I was relieved when Benny told Dean that he'd found someone for whom he wanted to stay good. Benny is an intriguing character and well-played by Ty Olsson, so I'm glad we'll get to see more of him in the new year.

The Sam and Amelia story left me cold, as usual. I would love to be interested in Sam's year without Dean but this love-triangle feckery is not for me :( I cannot find it within myself to care about Amelia nor can I care about Sam being with Amelia. I know Sam keeps telling everybody in a five mile radius of him that Amelia saved him, but in all of the flashbacks we've been shown I haven't seen a Sam that convinced me he was so badly off that this grumpy, inconsistent woman saved him from himself. If I could get to see Sam's behaviour after Dean was taken to Purgatory, and if I could get some more info from Sam to supplement his frequent, "I ran", statements then, perhaps, I might have sympathy with his storyline this year :-?

I agree with other commenters who note that Sam putting a tail on Benny was a sensible idea and that Martin was a poor choice for this task. I also agree that Dean using Amelia to lure Sam away was a harsh thing to do. In fact, I'm wondering why Dean did it -

- was it to get back at Sam for siding with Martin against Dean? (don't think so, Dean's not that petty)

- Was it because Dean knew that the only thing that would make a tendency-to-get -obssessed-Sam stop trying to kill Benny was thinking that Amelia was in danger? (true, but very manipulative and extreme choice to make, I'm sure other less harsh distractions could've been used)

- Was it because he took a chance that Sam would find Amelia living well without Sam, and Dean wanted Sam to see that Amelia didn't need/want him? (seems very manipulative again and not really in keeping with Dean's character)

I refuse to believe it was because Dean thinks more of Benny than of Sam. But other than that, I'm not that clear on Dean's motivation for a cold act :( Also, it's strange to think of Dean going through Sam's things in secret and planting a decoy for future use. It implies that Dean really doesn't trust Sam fully anymore and that's upsetting to me because I really yearn for the days when it was Sam and Dean united against the world.

So, we have the brothers back at odds with each other in a very fundamental way.... again (boo, hiss, boringly done) and I think that this rift between them is supposed to be the true cliffhanger for this hiatus (because I'm not convinced that Benny turned to the dark side and is drinking humans again) but I'm not feeling very hyped up for the next half of S8 because I didn't enjoy all of the first half of the season. I hope the second half is more consistently written, has far fewer flashbacks, and has a reconciliation between Sam and Dean, cos I'm seriously fecked off with this "brothers at each others throats shite masquerading as dramatic tension" that we've been getting for years. I'll be watching in the new year with my fingers crossed and hoping, fervently, that the writers fix this rift between Sam and Dean, and that we get to see much more Benny (and much less Amelia :o ).
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-06 07:46
I absolutely think Dean thinks more of Benny than Sam at this point and I think the show has gone out of its way to prove to us that he is right to think that. They have annihilated the character of Sam this year. They want us to hate him. I don't, but I know I'm supposed to. They wrote the least compelling "romance" for Sam then broke it up with the most soap opera cliche ever. They make Sam not look for Dean and then have him admit he is a coward. They make Benny the best vampire ever, stronger than Lenore and only give us Dean's view of things.

I honestly don't know why the signed Jared for 2 more seasons. Watching Sam be systematically destroyed is simply not fun. But Hey! they can finally do Kripke's idea that Dean has to kill Sam, but now he can be happy about it because he has the best brother in the world, Benny and he's forgiven Cas, so all is good.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-06 11:41
Quote:
The Sam and Amelia story left me cold, as usual. I would love to be interested in Sam's year without Dean but this love-triangle feckery is not for me :( I cannot find it within myself to care about Amelia nor can I care about Sam being with Amelia. I know Sam keeps telling everybody in a five mile radius of him that Amelia saved him, but in all of the flashbacks we've been shown I haven't seen a Sam that convinced me he was so badly off that this grumpy, inconsistent woman saved him from himself. If I could get to see Sam's behaviour after Dean was taken to Purgatory, and if I could get some more info from Sam to supplement his frequent, "I ran", statements then, perhaps, I might have sympathy with his storyline this year :-?
Couldn't agree more w/you, Ciar! Any insight into Sam's supposed "depression" after Dean disappeared would help put him in some perspective.
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 11:20
Quote:
Also, it's strange to think of Dean going through Sam's things in secret and planting a decoy for future use. It implies that Dean really doesn't trust Sam fully anymore and that's upsetting to me because I really yearn for the days when it was Sam and Dean united against the world.
Dean hasn't trust Sam ever since last season. In Hello Cruel World, Dean went through Sam's phone and activated his GPS to track him down. In fact, Dean still hasn't trust Sam ever since he was sprung out of the cage. Fool me once, you don't get second chance. He is always wary of anyone who had lied to him.

I too miss the old days when it was just Sam and Dean against the world. I miss the Amulet. Things hasn't been the same even since that thing gone.

This is all just the product of the artificially induced angst that the writer has cooked up. The brothers were already in a good place with each other last season despite the boring Leviathan storyline.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-09 09:31
Kaj, I always thought that Dean's action of activating the GPS on Sam's mobile phone was more to do with the fact that Dean was desperate to find his brother at a time when Sam wasn't really able to take care of himself properly because of the lingering effects of hallucinating Lucifer. I didn't get the impression that Dean tracked Sam this way because of a lack of trust, I always thought it came about through Dean's worry about Sam's safety.

I'm absolutely with you on missing the Amulet (or Samulet as I've recently read someone on WFB call it LOL) and I really miss the days when we had Sam + Dean united against the world (all while bickering and arguing because, let's face it they're brothers and they're stubborn but, fundamentally, we could see that they love(d) each other) *unhappy and wistful sigh*
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-06 07:48
Its all very well asking for less Amelia and more Benny but what would that exactly leave Sam with?.I will admit to be disappointed with the sl Amelia hasnt quite turned out to be the character I was hoping she was going to be for Sam however in saying that she is all he has.

Benny is a Dean character and one he clearly has a strong relationship with I dont believe right now he has that with Sam , it would not leave much for Sam if Amelia faded away and clearly wether we believe it or not Sam thinks the world of her.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-06 08:07
percysowner, you break my heart by saying that :cry: :cry: :cry: I have to try and believe that it's not true. I hate to think of a Dean who thinks more of Benny than Sam. I have been rationalising Dean's behaviour by telling myself he's acting out of hurt at Sam's behaviour in not looking for Dean when he was in Purgatory, and because of his strong abandonment triggers, but that, at heart, Dean doesn't really believe the nasty things he says about Sam. But the writers keep doing their best to unsettle my reading of Dean by having him tell Sam twice that Benny means more to him than Sam. It's awful and I hate it.

Sharon, you make a good (if somewhat depressing) point in that Sam's storyline, to date, doesn't do interesting things for the character development of Sam. Also, it's frustrating to think that the writers haven't got any other storyline for Sam other than Amelia.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-06 08:36
I don't know, ciar, I'm wondering if they're emphasising the whole "Benny is a better brother" thing because they're intending to reveal later on that Dean has, in fact, made an error in judgement? I actually think it would be interesting to see that, since Dean has hardly, if ever, made a bad call. It doesn't even have to be something that warrants them killing Benny, just enough that Dean might see he's not as good a brother as Dean thinks he is. I don't know how you could replace one year of "I've got your back" with 30 years of brotherhood and I think Dean needs to realise that. Maybe if Dean does screw up where Benny is concerned, he might actually cut Sam a little slack on the forgiveness issues, too. Anyway, that's what I'm hoping for at the moment.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-06 08:59
If they do, it will be too late. They spent nine episodes telling, showing and working actively to show Sam as a bad brother. A sudden Dean is wrong about Benny won't wipe that away. Benny will be bad, but Sam will be worse. They refusal to allow Sam to be right on anything has be catastrophic.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-07 04:32
Percy, I completely understand your views in this, but for my part I feel that it's less showing Sam is the bad brother as it is showing the ways in which Dean currently considers Benny a better brother. I don't think that just because Dean might think so, we have to as well. It's just like when people talk about how Show trashed John. To me, they didn't trash John, they trashed Dean's opinion of him in that Dean worshipped him as this big damn hero and when he realised John may not have quite lived up to the lofty pedestal on which Dean placed him, it completely threw Dean for a loop. Doesn't mean I have to think that,too. I actually agree with Sam on that point, that John did the best he could in a bad situation.
I think Purgatory (and RMF explains this quite well further down) has turned Dean's priorities upside down to the point where he is actually valuing one year of "I've got your back" over everything he and Sam have been through together. And that's, IMO, going to royally bite him on the ass, when he realises that Benny is quite possibly not what's he's cracked up to be and most importantly will never ever be able to take Sam's place in Dean's world. But, as always, I could be completely wrong.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-07 04:55
Someone on tumblr has written basically, was goes through my head with this Sam vs. Dean debate (which is frankly grating on my nerves in ways I really don´t want to ponder), POV discussion, our all knowing POV and seeing people through others' eyes.

It´s a very thoughtful piece.. and I hope it´s ok to post the link here :)

rootsunknown.tumblr.com/post/37390754715/perception-and-lack-of-perspective-in-citizen-fang
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-07 07:10
Hi Fluffy, that was a lovely article. I do agree that sometimes it's not easy to take ourselves off of this rather omnicient perch that we have as viewers. I don't think either brother made the best decisions they could have, but I also don't think they were total bastards or anything. I do think this rift between them very much stems from a lack of true understanding of where the other is coming from. If they'd just talk, dammit, I'm sure they can work this all out. I heard 8.13 might be a big one for this, so here's hoping.
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 08:01
Really enjoyed that read. Thanks for sharing, Fluffy! :-)
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 11:38
Thanks for the link Fluffy, It's a good read.

My proposal still the same. Let's just throw these 'boys' into a small empty padded room and make them fight settle their disagreement. With or without shirts.

Hhhh... sometimes it's needed to dip into the shallow pool. :P
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 11:42
And I still LOVE that proposal, kaj.
Yay for time in the shallow pool. It'll keep us warm until January. :oops:
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-09 09:34
Kaj, can there be slamming each other up against walls , and getting into each others personal space to argue, during this (potentially shirtless) angsty time in the padded room????? PLEASE can we have that???? ;-) I've been good this year and I think Santa should reward me for that :lol:
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 11:27
Didn't they say that Dean spent a lot more longer in purgatory that the earth '1 year' time? Just like in Hell, time move faster then on earth there. Perhaps longer that in hell?

I remember its Singer who said that.
E
# E 2012-12-07 22:40
I don't think so, Dean keeps referring to his 'year' as in one year, the same amount of time that Sam spent topside and there has been no indication that time moves differently in purgatory than on earth.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-06 11:46
But Dean clearly has a lot of resentment toward Sam for past wrongs. That ghost/spectre episode made that clear. I mean Dean even holds Soulless Sam against Sam! I'm sure he's still angry that Sam went to college!

It's been 30 years of disappointment versus 1 year if undying loyalty. For Dean, it makes sense.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-07 03:04
Yes, that's why I'm thinking Dean actually needs to screw up. I've been thinking a lot about this, but I'm wondering if the reason Dean still can't forgive Sam properly is because he's never been in Sam's shoes. He's never made a seriously wrong judgement call, the kind where he actually has to work for forgiveness. To me, that's the way I find the most understanding in people's actions, is to attempt to put myself in someone else's shoes and try to honestly decide if I would have done anything different in the same siuation. It's easy to judge from the sidelines but it's a different matter entirely when you're actually in the trenches. Maybe actually being in that situation, where he makes a huge ass mistake, maybe he'll actually get that he's not always right, and he can make mistakes, and that it is possible to lose your way. I'm starting to think the trust/forgivene ss issues are less about Sam being a bad brother and more about Dean himself. Dean needs to start letting things the hell go. I'm hoping that this might happen.
As for blaming Sam for what the Soulless guy did, I think that's completely irrational, so I'd like to believe that that particular comment wasn't actually him talking.
I can see how this whole thing makes sense to Dean, but does he really think that if his friendship with Benny lasts for 30 years that nothing is going to happen? That just because the first year was apaprently so great, they'll never fight, etc? Dean is letting his anger/disgruntl ement/whatever over the whole not looking for him thing cloud his judgment here. At least, that's the way I see it.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-06 15:36
I do suspect that at some point setting Benny free in the world will come back to bite Dean on the arse so I'm hoping that you're correct, PaintedWolf, and the heavy use of Benny calling Dean 'brother' (plus the occasions on which Dean tells Sam that Benny is the only one he can trust) is just the writers setting Dean up for a betrayal by Benny or for having to take Benny out (angstily, of course). It would also be nice if, in some way, Benny is the reason for a reconciliation between the Winchester brothers.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-06 11:43
But presently Dean does think more of Benny than Sam.

He admitted last night that Benny is a better brother to him than Sam. And from Dean's perspective combined w/all the underlying resentment he has toward Sam for past wrongs, it makes sense. He may not feel that way forever, but he feels that way now.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-06 08:19
Two things from this ep made me smile:

- a town called Kermit - that is always going to make me think of the Muppet and it'll make me giggle :lol:

- the ability of the Winchesters to drive huge distances in a short space of time. Louisiana to Texas is a big drive, (I'm not American so I'm just going by the size of the U.S. on maps) particularly via back roads rather than motorways, so it makes me smile at the idea that Sam made it from a swamp in Louisiana to Amelia's house in Texas so quickly. I used to think only the Impala could manage this feat of temporal and spatial magic but it would seem that Martin's car can do it too. Perhaps Hunters fit special, Warp-capable engines to their cars??? ;-)
E
# E 2012-12-07 23:00
Hi Ciar,
Yeah, you are right on the spatial magic part of the episode. Having driven from Dallas, through Louisiana and on through into Florida I can tell you that Sam was looking at a 12-14 hour drive at the absolute minimum to get from Louisiana into Texas. And Kermit (the Frog) Texas is aaaaaall the way over near New Mexico... in extreme west Texas so, maybe even as much as a two day drive.

Maybe Marin's car has a flux capacitor.
:Leah
# :Leah 2012-12-08 02:10
:-)
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 02:21
I don't even understand why the writers do this! Of all things they can place the action anywhere in the US they like but they set up these impossible drives...

In this particular case they clearly picked a town in Texas at random and were stuck with it when this episode had to be set in Louisiana for plot purposes.

In BDABR apparently Dean can drive from near Buffalo NY to Queens in 2 hours. Hah.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-17 16:28
eilf, I don't understand the writers on this issue either. In earlier seasons, the scripts would have Sam and Dean make a point of noting that Dean is able to drive these long distances much faster via back roads rather than using Motorways (roads often built for the purpose of going in a more direct fashion and at a faster speed than back roads) *my mind boggles*
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2013-01-17 16:31
E, thanks for the clarification on this - the distances covered by the Winchesters and the Impala (and the speed at which they manage it) has always confused me because the USA is a huge country and yet Sam and Dean zip around the various US States so easily :-*
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-12-06 08:44
RIP Martin, you should have listened to Dean and gone far far away. I am glad that Benny didn't die, when he put his head down on the counter I gasped, I was like, oh no, not Benny! :cry: Ty Olsson is too good to lose so soon after meeting him. Maybe Dean will be in danger later on and Sam will have to get Benny to come help him. Hey, a girl can dream.

About your whole theory Ardeo, I think there are still plenty of holes in Sam's time with Amelia, but yeah, she is in fact very real. And I'm glad Don didn't turn out to be a tool and he let Amelia decide what was best for her, although it kind of looked like she was going to choose Sam there for a moment. But Sam being the gentleman that he is left to give her the chance to bond with her husband of who knows how many years, instead of staying with the guy she only knew for one year.

Sam & Dean. Oh dear, those two are giving me a serious brain rash. Someone posted (I'm sorry I don't remember who it was) that we should just put these two in a room and lock the door and not let them out until they really talk to each other. Kind of like an ultimate fighting match, but with talking...altho ugh knowing the Winchesters it would eventually turn to fisticuffs! :D Hmmm, I would actually pay to see that, Ha.

Now for the dreaded Hellatus. :sigh: I'm looking forward to rewatching every episode and I will be paying close attention to the details.
E
# E 2012-12-07 00:09
Does anyone else see a parallel between the Amelia, Don and Sam relationship and the Dean, Benny, Sam relationship? Amelia said that the had been with Don "forever." So when Don returned, Sam did the gentlemanly thing and removed himself from the situation, rightly realizing that "forever" with Don trumps one year with Sam. Dean on the other hand has chosen one year with Benny over his lifetime with Sam. I find that interesting and sad. I hope Dean comes to his senses and I double hope that Sam doesn't get any weird ideas about fighting Don for Amelia....
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-11 01:52
E, Oh that is sad. I think you're probably right about the deliberate parallel.
MetamorphicRocks
# MetamorphicRocks 2012-12-06 09:47
I feel that the Dean/Benny storyline is more riveting than the Sam/Amelia storyline. We have been shown the comraderie between Dean and Benny via flashbacks. We also have been shown alot of Benny's inner thoughts and motivations which allows us as viewers to root for him. When Benny put his head down on that counter it evoked emotion-which is a good thing!

I would personally have preferred that they give us a bit more of HOW Amelia saved Sam; that is, show us how she made him feel safe or loved besides a few seconds with a birthday cake. I think it is harder to root for Amelia based on what we have been shown of her-and thus, for me anyway- it is harder to be invested in that storyline.

Also, when Sam was in that bar and he turned around, his reaction made me think momentarily that he was seeing Lucifer. His reaction seems odd to me because of the intensity of the fear/shock he displayed.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-06 11:56
Of course the Benny/Dean storyline is more riveting. Benny has actually been fleshed out. We've been given his background. He has motivations and feelings. He's a well-developed character. I like Benny. I have no issue or problem w/Benny.

Amelia is essentially a blank slate or a cliche - angry war widow. Sam's time w/her is fuzzy and vague. They don't do much together. They supposedly "saved" each other, but that is not reflected or shown in the FBs. It doesn't surprise me that people aren't rooting for them, or that people don't care about her. They haven't given us any reason to care, IMO.
Kristina
# Kristina 2012-12-06 17:57
Quote:

I would personally have preferred that they give us a bit more of HOW Amelia saved Sam; that is, show us how she made him feel safe or loved besides a few seconds with a birthday cake. I think it is harder to root for Amelia based on what we have been shown of her-and thus, for me anyway- it is harder to be invested in that storyline.

Also, when Sam was in that bar and he turned around, his reaction made me think momentarily that he was seeing Lucifer. His reaction seems odd to me because of the intensity of the fear/shock he displayed.
I agree that we haven't SEEN how Amelia saved Sam or the distraught Sam. I think that is the point though. I think we are not seeing it for a reason. Now I have a few thoughts there:

First, we aren't seeing it because Sam can't go there. Its too painful for him to think about so he doesn't. (I know not the best choice but still an option)

Second, he is being manipulated into what he remembers and doesn't remember. Sort of like he is remembering the good times and not the bad.

I agree that Sam's reaction to Amelia in the bar was strange. Like he didn't think she should be standing there talking to him, yet he was just at her house and saw her.....

I think we are supposed to be lost and confused with what is going on with Sam right now. I think we are supposed to be ripping our hair out and screaming about Sam and his choices. I also think that we only have a fraction of the story with Sam right now, which is why it doesn't make sense. I also think that it was on purpose that Sam's FB's started when he met Amelia 4 months after Dean disappeared. (I think it was 4 months but however long since exploding Dick). I am also wondering about the actual order of the FB and I am wondering if they are mixed with real and fake memories. Similar to Dean's in what happened with Cas at the portal.
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-07 11:49
Quote:
I would personally have preferred that they give us a bit more of HOW Amelia saved Sam; that is, show us how she made him feel safe or loved besides a few seconds with a birthday cake. I think it is harder to root for Amelia based on what we have been shown of her-and thus, for me anyway- it is harder to be invested in that storyline.
Agree. There are ways to do that too other than employing flashback as a tool.

Quote:
Also, when Sam was in that bar and he turned around, his reaction made me think momentarily that he was seeing Lucifer. His reaction seems odd to me because of the intensity of the fear/shock he displayed.
Well, put that above the high pile of Sam's odd reaction/behavi or. There are plenty and still with no explanation.
E
# E 2012-12-07 23:25
Hi MetamorphicRock s, it's interesting how differently people can view things. I actually find the Sam/Amelia storyline far more riveting for exactly the same reasons that you find it less interesting. I actually like both stories very much, but I haven't spent even 1/10th of the time trying to suss out the Dean story that I have Sam's. Sam's story has captured my full and undivided attention. I have spent an embarrassing number of hours on this website speculating and discussing Sam, Amelia, their relationship, what could be going on underneath, trying to analyze clues, cryptic one liners and behaviors, lighting cues, set details etc.... until I end up dreaming about it at night! I have gone back to re-watch episodes to try and see if I missed anything in the dreamscape of Sam's memories and attempt to uncover clues that I might have missed the first time around. I haven't given the purgatory story even a cursory glance in comparison. I like the story very well, it's gritty and exciting and visually stunning. But I feel that it has been so spoon fed to us that there is nothing more there to figure out, no mystery and that's not nearly as much fun for me as the maze that is Sam's story.
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-06 10:11
I am the cheese that stands along: I can't stand Benny and can't wait for him to die. I think I want for him to be a bad guy so I think he's BS'ing with his "brother" crap. I also don't feel that him using Dean as a ride ot of Purgatory is a reason for Dean's immense loyalty. What has Benny done for Dean? Nothing compared to what he got in return. Dean's being taken for a ride by a vamp acting like Sam. I think Cas would agree with this assessment.

That text message was terrible. Oh Dean how could you? I don't think for a second Dean did it to protect Sam. He did it to protect Benny. He said repeatedly he thought Sam could take Benny. I see trouble in Dean's future, but trouble.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-06 11:09
To be honest I think Dean sent the text because he knew that only something as awful and callous as that would fool the brother who knows him so well. Also the brother who Dean said twice during the episode was good enough to go up against Benny.

Dean was afraid that they would both (Sam and Benny) get killed. He also believed Benny hadn't done anything wrong. He didn't want to side against Sam so he got him out of the way. Sam was afraid that Martin would kill Benny without making sure he was the perpetrator and possibly injure Dean at the same time.

All of these things had good intentions, all of them show actual concern for someone you love deeply even if you don't actually like them at the moment. And it is very good writing which identifies exactly where everyone stands right now (well in my interpretation of it all anyway).

Makes a nice buildup to the next episode!

I love the idea of 'the cheese that stands alone' by the way :D
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2012-12-06 11:34
Quote:
To be honest I think Dean sent the text because he knew that only something as awful and callous as that would fool the brother who knows him so well. Also the brother who Dean said twice during the episode was good enough to go up against Benny.

Dean was afraid that they would both (Sam and Benny) get killed. He also believed Benny hadn't done anything wrong. He didn't want to side against Sam so he got him out of the way. Sam was afraid that Martin would kill Benny without making sure he was the perpetrator and possibly injure Dean at the same time.

All of these things had good intentions, all of them show actual concern for someone you love deeply even if you don't actually like them at the moment.
Totally agree with this. And I saw it as Dean warning 'both' of them because he knew 'both' their strengths. My SPN friend is a super Sam girl and even she thought Dean did it to keep Sam safe. Dean did take a machete with him to talk to Benny. And I feel in my soul of souls that if Dean found Benny guilty he would have killed him. Would have nightmares, but 'what is one more'. Sound familiar? Dean is just focused and on point it seems. And hey, he is getting so tech savvy!

Sammy, oh, there is SOO much more to the Amelia thing than we know. He looks ready to snap. Jared's portrayal of Sam's state of mind has been incredible. Up, down, all over. I think Sam was watching the house. Maybe?
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-12-06 16:21
I agree completely with you eilf.

Dean was so afraid Sam and Benny would face off and one of them had to lose. That was a lose-lose situation for Dean. And what else could he do to insure Sam would take off immediately? That was clever of Dean, and hurtful to Sam, but Sam will live and Benny too.

I hope this hasn't anything to do with Sam's resentment of what Dean did to Amy. Really. Sam knew Amy for only a few HOURS and she was killing people, while Dean and Benny saved each other's bacon for a whole YEAR! And Benny isn't killing people now. I wish Sam would cut Benny some slack, as Sam got Dean to back off of killing Lenore and her nest. I guess he has forgotten about that. Sam's hatred for Benny almost reminds me of Gordon Walker. Martin seemed to be channelling Walker at the end there. I'm happy Benny didn't die, nor his grand daughter. Martin was looney tunes, threatening an innocent woman. Is Sam turning himself inside out with jealousy over Benny? Is Dean not allowed to have a dependable friendship with anyone else?

It seems clear Sam's judgement is way off yet after the trauma we are supposed to know happened to him when Dean disappeared. Letting Martin knock out his brother and leaving him handcuffed? The problem is that we have not witnessed ANY of his trauma as yet. We could better understand his motives if we had clearer reasons for it. I hope we get to see why in future episodes.

Sam should sit down with Cas and interrogate him as to what happened in Purgatory with Benny. He doesn't seem to be asking about it, like he has about Dean's absences in the past years.

I hate the hellatus!! :sigh:
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-07 04:47
Bevie, I do believe we could use some more explanation of Sam's actions, but I'm not sure this has to do with jealousy as much as, as someone mentioned on another thread, Sam just has this extreme fear of losing Dean again. We might not have any solid proof of that, but I feel like it makes sense, given all he's been through. He doesn't know Benny. He does know that he's a vampire, and I think maybe he's just afraid that Benny might turn on Dean and hurt him and it's making him a little irrational? Yes, some of his decisions weren't exactly shining moments. He thought Amelia was in danger and he probably wasn't even thinking, he just went. I think losing anyone at this point will tear Sam apart and losing Dean again would probably destroy him.
I too hope we may get to see some of this in future episodes, though
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-07 05:05
Quote:
Amy for only a few HOURS and she was killing people,
In which she saved his life from her own mother.I don't know when someone saved his life a monster who could have killed him Sam was grateul and trusted and he was right in doing so.
E
# E 2012-12-07 23:40
I guess my only problem with this theory is that the text trick Dean played on Sam had to have taken time and planning. Dean set that up a while ago, maybe even weeks prior.....that isn't the act of a man trying to protect his brother, that's the act of a man trying to have leverage over him. Dean couldn't have known that Sam and Benny were going to be in direct contact or conflict with one another, but he set up the text trick anyway, so that he would have the option to manipulate Sam to his advantage in whatever situation arose in which manipulating Sam proved to be expedient. Dean didn't even have any way of knowing that his 'insurance policy' against Sam would revolve around Benny at all and yet he set up the phone texting situation anyway. It's a pretty calculated move on Dean's part.
E
# E 2012-12-07 23:45
OMG! This response ended up soooooo far away from the comment it was directed towards. I was responding to this comment by eilf:

Quote:
To be honest I think Dean sent the text because he knew that only something as awful and callous as that would fool the brother who knows him so well. Also the brother who Dean said twice during the episode was good enough to go up against Benny.

Dean was afraid that they would both (Sam and Benny) get killed. He also believed Benny hadn't done anything wrong. He didn't want to side against Sam so he got him out of the way. Sam was afraid that Martin would kill Benny without making sure he was the perpetrator and possibly injure Dean at the same time.

All of these things had good intentions, all of them show actual concern for someone you love deeply even if you don't actually like them at the moment. And it is very good writing which identifies exactly where everyone stands right now (well in my interpretation of it all anyway).
Anyhooo.... my response is above eilf!
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 00:38
Hi E your question hadn't occurred to me because I already had it fixed in my head the point at which Dean set this up! :-) And I have no proof! But I feel sure that he did it immediately after Sam said that he might be the one to kill Benny (in Southern Comfort) and Dean said about crossing the bridge when they got to it.

The three things that make me think that are:

1) the competitiveness of siblings. They hate to lose against each other (if mine are anything to go by at least ;-) ) and on one level Dean would have worked out the best way to fool Sam - maybe without thinking through how nasty what he planned is (I am giving him some rather undeserved benefit of the doubt here).

2) Dean figured that it was a foregone conclusion that Sam would go after Benny straight away - he was probably surprised when he didn't - in fact that might be the reason why he was so reasonable in the car at the beginning of the episode? But Dean has spent a year fighting alongside Benny and he knows how good a fighter Benny is, and Sam, well Sam has been out of fighting for a year so he will be rusty. Dean would be justifiably afraid that Benny would kill Sam. This is not an option for Dean.

3) As I said in the other post, these guys know each other so well. In the Usual Suspects episode you don't see them do any of the background setup that allows them to tell the same lies to the cops, but the cops can't catch them out. So their fundamental knowledge of each others behavior must be practically psychic! So to fool Sam he would have to do something really out of character...my, the more I think about this the colder it seems! Dean, really! How could you?

I think the only way any of this happened is because neither one will open up to the other about what happened. Since Sam wants to know what happened in Purgatory and Dean ACTIVELY refuses to tell him (even bringing other people out of Sam's hearing so he can discuss it) and on the other hand Sam wants to tell Dean about Amelia and Dean REALLY doesn't want to hear it, the communication issue does appear to be more on Deans side than Sam.

I know this ignores why Sam has no (believable) reason for his behavior after the lab explosion, but I think that this has to be the (a?) big reveal of the season...

It is hard to interpret Sam because the clues we have to his behavior don't seem to add up to much as yet.

Oh and one final thing, which isn't relevant to any of the rest of this but I thought Dean was supposed to be some sort of uber-hunter with ESP since he came back from Purgatory. Is it just me misremembering or has he had his ass kicked in every single fight he has been in since he got back? He was in 2 fight situations in the last episode and needed rescuing from the rogue vamp by Benny and he got hit on the head by Mostly-ok and handcuffed to a radiator....
E
# E 2012-12-08 08:51
Hi eilf. Yeah I was thinking after SoCo is probably when Dean set up the phone thing too. I am trying to give Dean the benefit of the doubt here, but I am having a hard time. Maybe because Show really got ME with the phone thing as well; I never saw it coming. When Sam got the text and ditched Martin, I was like NO WAY!! SAM WHERE ARE YOU GOING?! DUDE?! And was gearing up to be pissed at Sam for being unprofessional. Then when Sam discovers the phone trick it was like a punch to the gut for ME as well as for Sam. I was soooo shocked. For Dean, its a new low. He's always been Sam's protector and I don't know if there is another instance in the show of him manipulating Sam so badly.

And about the fighting thing.... maybe the gravitational pull is different in Purgatory allowing Dean to be a better fighter there? He did kick Sam's ass (he always kicks Sam's ass; I don't think Sam can bring himself to really and truly fight Dean, he always pulls back). I don't hold Martin getting the best of him against Dean though, that was a sucker punch and really underhanded. Where were the Marquis of Queensbury rules in that altercation I ask you?
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 10:24
Regardless of whether Dean tricked Sam or not, it was still unprof'l of Sam to ditch Martin and leave him stranded in the woods. If you hunt together, you're supposed to have the other hunter's back. Carver didn't have to have Sam do that. Don't know why he did when Sam could have taken Martin w/him or dropped Martin off at the hotel. It's not like he was going to get to Texas from Louisiana anytime soon anyway! What's 10 minutes?
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 11:05
Lala, you are right. This is the worst thing that anyone did during this episode.
st50
# st50 2012-12-08 11:09
Sorry. Disagree with you both.
It wasn't a stellar move, I'll agree. But it wasn't the worst thing done.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 12:48
if Sam had pulled that move it wouldnt have been labelled as steller or genius or anything of the sort but as cruel and a dick move so Dean has to be treated the same.
E
# E 2012-12-08 19:40
I agree with both of you if that makes sense! I agree with you Lala in that I didn't like that Sam ditched Martin without a word to him. It WAS unprofessional, but I understand why he did it. Sam's current panic response has been well documented this season, it made sense to me, even if I didn't exactly like it.

And I agree with you too st50 in that it wasn't that big of a thing in comparison to all the other awful things that went on in this ep. Using Elizabeth as a hostage was worse, clocking Dean and handcuffing him to a radiator was worse, telling Sam that he's not trustworthy by a stone cold sober Dean was worse, and sending Sam the text that panicked him was worse too.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-08 11:28
I disagree that it is the worst thing anyone did. Martin is an armed hunter. Benny is no where in the area. Martin has to walk back to town. Somewhere on one of the threads someone pointed out that leaving Martin to find his way back could have been a way of keeping him away from Benny and giving Dean his chance to prove Benny's innocence. Certainly if Sam had dropped Martin off in town all that would have been accomplished was that he would have gotten to Elizabeth more quickly.

Look, dumping Martin was a jerk move and unprofessional, but not the worst thing done during the episode. It's certainly no worse than taking an innocent woman hostage to get Benny to break. It's not worse than handcuffing Dean to the radiator. It's not worse than planning for weeks or months to fool your brother into thinking that his ex-girlfriend is in trouble, especially since for Sam girlfriend in trouble tends to mean trapped on a ceiling burning up, or being a werewolf that has to be killed. Sam's girlfriends don't have their car breakdown in the middle of nowhere and need help, they tend to get dead. IMHO that pattern of death of girlfriends is one of the reasons Sam panicked and since Dean has been with Sam through all these losses, it makes that particular text rather cruel.

But really the worst behavior was Martin taking Liz hostage.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 11:43
Oh I'm sorry, I saw this point mentioned so many times over the past few days I assumed it was more important than I was giving it credit for.

My bad.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 12:30
Elif, if you think Sam stranding Martin was the worst thing done in the episode, that's fine. You don't have to apologize for thinking that. That's perfectly w/in your right to think.

I thought it was pretty bad. I'm not sure if I thought it was the worst thing done in the episode. I will say it was the worst thing Sam did in the episode, IMO. Getting Martin involved in his Benny obsession and handcuffing Dean are close seconds!
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-08 12:52
Leaving Martin was a mistake and in hindsight Sam would not of done it however there is a danger here of painting Martin as some imbecile who couldnt string two thoughts together . Martin was a hunter , he had a hunters mind ok veering slightly on the Gordon side of things but never the less that is what he was , he contacted Sam for a job he got one do I believe he should of been hunting no I dont but that was his decision . Wether Sam had dropped him off somewhere or told him to drop the whole idea Martin still would of done what he did .


Sam's mistake was to panic over a message he believed was true at the time but he didnt get Martin killed Martin did in his determination to take Benny down .Sam will blame himself for giving Martin the job but ultimately Martin was killed because he believed he could take on a strong vampire by using his grandaughter.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 13:06
I guess Martin just came off as really vulnerable to me. He didn't seem all that stable, and he certainly didn't seem ready to hunt. Putting myself in Sam's shoes, I know I would feel like CRAP b/c of Martin's death. I would definitely blame myself so that's probably why I'm being hard on Sam.
E
# E 2012-12-08 19:43
Haha! Percysowner, I should have read a little further before I made my reply which is sitting a few comments up. Its pretty similar!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-08 20:21
Great minds think alike?
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 12:46
and Martin being a hunter probably would have gone right back to take of Benny with the same result.
st50
# st50 2012-12-08 11:13
Quote:
Hi eilf. Yeah I was thinking after SoCo is probably when Dean set up the phone thing too. I am trying to give Dean the benefit of the doubt here, but I am having a hard time.
Here's an idea... When Dean was told her full name (in Southern Comfort, I think), he was also reminded by Sam that there was a real possibility Sam would bail on Dean.
Dean only wanted to have Sam with him on crazy street, so... thinking Sam would run, and then not want to talk with Dean, Dean thinks Sam would pick up the phone for 'the girl'. He programs a burn phone, thinking this would be how he could contact Sam if/when Sam took off.... Not intending to use it to trick him....

Speculating, yes, but I don't like either one of them being jerks. :-*
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 11:38
To make Sam answer the phone? Interesting. But Sam could just hang up?

To be honest I think they just need a firm example of Dean being in the wrong so that they can go into THE CONVO on an equal footing.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 12:52
or the other way round, maybe they didnt want Dean to look bad so they made sure Sam did plenty for the fandom to perceive as bad just to counter it or surpass it as seems tpo be the popular opinion.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-08 11:49
Quote:
2) Dean figured that it was a foregone conclusion that Sam would go after Benny straight away - he was probably surprised when he didn't - in fact that might be the reason why he was so reasonable in the car at the beginning of the episode? 
Dean was calm and reasonable at the beginning of the episode because he believed he had control of the situation. He figured there were two possible outcomes. Either: 

1. They investigate and find clear evidence it wasn't Benny, Sam feels bad, and everyone goes their merry way.

2. Things get ugly, Dean uses the phone ploy to pull Sam out of the situation, and Benny gets away.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-08 11:59
Yep, that's how I see it.
HLeah
# HLeah 2012-12-08 12:52
How I see this, and it differs from others, is that Dean was prepared to take out Benny if he was guilty. He would hate having to do so because of their friendship but it has always been on the table this season and he has made that clear. Dean used the ploy keep two people he cared about from mortal combat until things were resolved. He would never let Benny get away IMO if he thought he was killing innocents. It wasn't a shining Dean moment for sure.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 13:04
Drat, I don't know how I keep typing letters in front of my name! Novice :-)
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 13:01
basically he was calm because he knew he had a back up plan, whatever happened he would be able to protect Benny from Sam so he didnt need to worry about it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-08 09:26
In addition to leverage it pretty well insures that Sam can't contact Amelia if he wants to. If he calls her number he gets Dean's phone and until Dean has played his trump card Dean will just let it go to voice mail. Then Sam gets the impression that not only does Amelia not want to take his calls, but that she really doesn't want to have anything to do with him because she doesn't even call to tell him leave me alone. It's a way of keeping Sam from returning to Amelia unless Dean thinks that he wants Sam gone for a while.
st50
# st50 2012-12-08 10:04
I don't think that Sam can't contact Amelia, percy.
I'm kind of thinking this through as I type, so bear with me please.

It seemed to me that when Sam got the text, it was a text identified as coming from Amelia. No number shown.
I think when Sam tried to call Amelia back from his own contacts list, she wasn't available. (convenient, yes, but I'll give it to the writers. Maybe she just wasn't taking calls from Sam?)
Anyway, sitting at the bar, Sam looked at the text message again, and checked the number associated. The look on his face told me that he knew it WASN'T Amelia's number, and he called it to find out who sent it. He was hurt and shocked when Dean picked up.

I really think Dean had gotten a burn phone in Amelia's name, or programmed that number as Amelia into Sam's phone, (however that has to work) and used it to text Sam so it showed up as coming from Amelia.

Long story short, I think Sam still had the right numbers for Amelia, and could call her (whether or not she'd answer) if he wanted.
Not excusing Dean here, he was a jerk, but not that much of one. (at least I hope not).
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 10:27
I thought Dean just sent Sam a text message from "Amelia." Sam just called the number back w/o looking at it, right?

Amelia's real contact info should still be in Sam's phone, right (not that I'm encouraging or would want to see Sam call the horrifically boring Amelia but her contact info should still be there)?
st50
# st50 2012-12-08 10:35
Yes, lala2. That's the way I took it at first.
Or Sam did call the number he had for Amelia, and her cell was turned off?
Either way, Sam still had her real number, Dean didn't take that away.

And she may be boring (if by boring you mean normal in a Supernatural world), but the more I see of her, the more I like her. It's not passion, like Sam's had with some other girls, it's safe and warm and comfortable. (And just enough snarky Deanishness to make it feel familiar.) She's just what he needed at the time.
But I doubt it's what he ultimately wants, even if he currently thinks so.
Thisoldbag58
# Thisoldbag58 2012-12-06 12:35
Wow. Dean appears to have embraced his true calling - torture. Except now it' emotional torture. No more holding back, just go for the gut.

Sam appears to have remembered only the best parts of Dean, and in coming back to reality is getting a rude awakening. I hope they both end up being able to work out their perception differences and appreciate the humanity in each other.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-06 13:52
I don't think Dean was trying for emotional torture. I think he was being pragmatic. He had a way to get Sam out of his hair and he didn't care if there was collateral damage. Since Dean has no idea of why Sam and Amelia split (that we know of) for all he knew he could have been setting up a reunion and would have had to really guilt Sam into coming back to hunt for the tablets.

It was a calculated risk. Get Sam out of his hair and deal with the consequences later.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-07 14:03
That is how I see it too. Dean has buried his complicated emotions and is being totally practical. His response in the car to Sam about going to look for Benny shows that clearly. And it astonishes Sam because this is not the Dean Sam knows.

Neither of these guys are 'right' at the moment. We need some conversation to get it all out...
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-12-06 13:08
Ardeospina,

When Benny put his on the bar and they cut to commercial, I think I cried a little bit!!! (And the last time I cried was S6 when Dean asked Cas to erase Lisa & Ben's memories of him).

And was that a rugburn? I was wondering what it was, because I don't remember Dean getting that last week!!! Can someone share the full back story on the rugburn?? How did Jensen get it? Wrestling Jared, I hope [evil grin].
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-06 13:50
Yep 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGn-BFECqrE
Chris_J
# Chris_J 2012-12-06 13:56
How awesome is Sam to allow Martin to cold clock his brother unconscious and handcuff him to a radiator in a town where vamps are killing people, leaving Dean vulnerable to being killed himself? Yep, you gotta love Sam's concern for his brother's well-being in this episode.

And then Sam doesn't even say a word to Martin as he high-tails it after getting the text. He just leaves Martin all alone with no backup and no word about what he's doing or where he's going. Sam got Martin involved in this whole mess, which he should have never done because clearly Martin is still very unstable, and I'm sure Sam abandoning him without a word didn't help matters.

I guess I don't fault Dean with sending the text to Sam because Sam didn't care about Dean's well-being when he left him unconscious and handcuffed while people were being killed. That's really cold of Sam, so Dean was well within his right to respond coldly as well. Although Dean doesn't know about Don, so I guess for all he knew, Sam would go back to Amelia and they would rekindle their romance.

It's too bad that Benny was pushed into killing because of Sam's poor decision to involve a mentally unstable hunter in the situation. Benny was just trying to connect with his family and lead a normal life. But Sam was so obsessed with killing Benny that he created a situation where he will now be well within his right to kill Benny. Good on you, Sammy... I guess. :-?
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-06 14:56
I can see where this could be interpreted this way, but you really have to buy into Dean's perception of Benny to make it all Sam's fault and Poor, poor Benny. I am convinced that Benny is a bad guy. Here are the clues I'm using:

1. Dean's memory of purgatory isn't necessary accurate. He was wrong about Cas. He's remembering it the way he wants to.
2. Benny helped Dean in Purgatory because he needed a ride out. It's possible he developed warm feelings for him, but he is a vampire and over 100 years old. He didn't seem to care when Dean chopped the head off his old girlfriend which is a clue that he doesn't really do sentimental to the extreme.
3. Martin saw him turn the corner and then stumbled over dead body. We know it wasn't there a long time, as the victim was just in the cafe hitting on the grandaughter.
4. How did Benny find the second victim? The other vampire wasn't around. Just a fortuitous guess?
5. He pretended like he was going to lay down his life for his grandaughter and it was touching, but really was that was never his plan.

Also, if Sam believed Benny to be the killer he would think Dean safe. Regarless of being handcuffed. Now Martin was a bad choice for Sam definately. But if Benny turns out to be a bad guy, then Sam was right to do what he did and I guess we shall see.....(I'm sort of excited for that).
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-12-06 16:38
Chris_J, I do have to agree with you, though I tried to sugar coat my previous post a little so as not to upset Sam girls. :P

But then are we sure that Benny fed on Martin? He could have just ripped out his throat and tried not to feed. I'm hoping anyway he didn't.

I like Benny a lot and see no reason why the brothers can't have friends besides themselves. They've had some wonderful characters on this show that the writers have killed off, who could have been great allies and friends. I hope the killing of likeable characters is over, since Sera is gone and she admitted liking to kill them after the fans got to love them. :-?
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-06 16:54
I have no problem with friends but subsitute brothers is something else
Benny I like but start thrown better and brother around and I cant embrace that . Sorry maybe its me being funny but I havent liked it
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-07 05:45
Quote:
How awesome is Sam to allow Martin to cold clock his brother unconscious and handcuff him to a radiator in a town where vamps are killing people, leaving Dean vulnerable to being killed himself?
Absolutely 100% awesome.Quote:
Yep, you gotta love Sam's concern for his brother's well-being in this episode.
Why because Dean values Sam so much.Quote:
which he should have never done because clearly Martin is still very unstable,
No he is just the Black and white hunter who is not an anomaly Quote:
And then Sam doesn't even say a word to Martin as he high-tails it after getting the text.
Yes,that was wrong.Quote:
I guess I don't fault Dean with sending the text to Sam because Sam didn't care about Dean's well-being when he left him unconscious and handcuffed while people were being killed.
In woods.By Dean's best brother Benny.Dean was very safe Quote:
That's really cold of Sam, so Dean was well within his right to respond coldly as well.
Which was because of Dean's oh!so sensitive declaration of how he values Sam.Quote:
Although Dean doesn't know about Don,
How can he know when he doesn't want to know.Quote:
It's too bad that Benny was pushed into killing because of Sam's poor decision to involve a mentally unstable hunter in the situation.
Are you sure it was Benny who killed him.Even then it was on Martin and not Sam.Quote:
But Sam was so obsessed with killing Benny that he created a situation where he will now be well within his right to kill Benny.
Dean has a track record of nil of trying to convince Sam ,so no surprise there.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-06 16:22
what I just noticed on the third rewatch, was the look of sheer terror on Sam´s face, when he read that text message.

Man...you boys...

And somehow, when he sees Amelia in the end, he seems to be having a panick attack...
Uhm, why?

Oh, and who else loved at that scene with Benny and Dean talking about Elisabeth... and Deans FACE!
It´s nice to see Dean being Dean again.
FoolForDean
# FoolForDean 2012-12-06 17:51
Quote:

Oh, and who else loved at that scene with Benny and Dean talking about Elisabeth... and Deans FACE!
It´s nice to see Dean being Dean again.
Oh yeah, Dean's face when he found out Elizabeth was Benny great-grand-dau ghter. Priceless!!!!!

It makes me wonder what sort of thoughts he had about her prior to that moment... Oh Dean, at least there's one thing about you that's never going to change!
st50
# st50 2012-12-06 20:30
Quote:

And somehow, when he sees Amelia in the end, he seems to be having a panick attack...
Uhm, why?
Because he just came face-to-face with the person that he thinks he loves, and had to force himself it was right to give up.
I don't think I'd be real calm and comfortable facing that situation, either. It'd be a panic attack for me, and I've never been through the trauma that he has, lost as many in the shocking ways that he has . I'd want to run and hide and avoid that person - Having to face her again? No way.

Perfectly understandable reaction, if you ask me.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-06 23:52
After reflection, I can't say that I loved this episode, but I give it credit for being the most nuanced and emotionally consistent effort of the season. A few things didn't work, but by and large there was a logic to the characters' actions that was missing from earlier episodes, despite the fact that there are still unanswered questions.

Some people are concerned about the effect on Sam's character, which is understandable since the sheer weight of past blame assigned to him threatens to destabilize the character completely each time a new fault is added. I'd say that every character was partly right and partly wrong, but the episode is actually hardest on Dean. Dean really wants to hurt Sam. Far from laying his resentments to rest at the end of  "Southern Comfort", he revives them again in declaring straight to Sam's face and in front of Martin that Benny has never let him down. And Sam is hurt, recognizing that in this moment, a whole history of fighting by his brother's side counts for nothing in comparison to his mistakes.

But we see what is happening to unimpeachable pal Benny outside the rarified atmosphere of Purgatory. He did not suffer from hunger there, and there was no agenda other than survival, so there was little to come between him and Dean. He certainly suffers from hunger now, though, and he experiences temptation even when it is the blood of his own great-granddaug hter and of his good buddy Dean. And Dean witnesses it. And still covers for Benny, although there are yet other things that should give him pause, such as Benny burying the body in the woods and the remarkable delay before he saves Dean from Desmond. Benny may not see much danger from Sam, but Dean has witnessed Sam killing a vamped-out, batshit, homicidal Gordon Walker with a length of barbed wire, so he urges Benny to go deep undercover and then hides his continued survival from his brother, even when it becomes clear that Benny has lost control after all.

So what's going on? It appears that although Dean is not suffering from overt signs of PTSD, he has nevertheless become locked into a Purgatory mindset. He's no longer thinking like a hunter -- there's just his team versus everybody else. What matters most to him is that someone totally and completely has his back, and that's all the "right" there is. Sam and Martin are treated like pieces on a chessboard, the first by manipulating his feelings towards Amelia, the second by dismissing his death as deserved. What he's come to defend is not Benny but his cherished ideal of someone standing by him without fail. Benny can't really live up to that, though, not in the real world, because he's a sitting duck for all his old contacts and the hunters who will inevitably follow. Things will always get messy, and if Dean can't remember his role in this world, he won't have one.

I'm not sure why they pitched this episode to us as a big showdown between the brothers. It was really more a pretty good look at what's going on with Dean. The drawback to that, though, is that the exposure of Dean's issues is a temporary distraction from the problems that remain with the storytelling. Sam, although portrayed largely sympathetically here, is still a mystery. We get a pretty big hint that he was on the verge of a breakdown from his line that Amelia "saved me". Still, that's about the most we get from another series of flashbacks that remain mostly boring. A deep exploration of Dean's psyche is well and good, but I need the other half of the equation to really make this work.
E
# E 2012-12-08 19:56
Hi RMF, just a quick comment on this ep not being the big showdown... I saw someone comment on another threat that originally in the episode lineup 8.10 was supposed to be the hellatus cliffhanger, but the short break at thanksgiving threw things off, so 8.9 ended up being the cliffie. All I can say is, if 8.10 is even more gut wrenching than 8.9, then I'll be glad come January that it didn't end up the mid-season finale. Hope this helps.
vivian
# vivian 2012-12-10 12:06
Very interesting analysis on Dean.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-07 03:53
RMF, I just want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Dean. I think this is exactly what I've been trying to articulate. I do like the idea that he's stuck in the kill or be killed mindset, and that what he currently values most is someone to have his back, completely. I think that's a good explanantion of why he still seems so resentful of Sam. He's dredging up moments where he feels Sam hasn't had his back and using that to currently judge Sam as not a good brother. He's forgetting the rest of their history and attempting to replace it with "Benny's had my back constantly the last year and you haven't, not always." Ergo, Benny=better brother.
As you said "if Dean can't remember his role in this world, he won't have one."
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-07 04:32
I´m not sure, I would agree completely.
But I definately some of the things, you mentioned.

It´s gotten better over the last episodes though.

In the first two episodes, Dean was someone you couldn´t actually let alone with other people, as evidenced with the situations with the suspect in 8.01 and Mama Tran. Had Sam not been there, then, he would have killed both and barely have wasted a second thought.

He still is in a survival mindset, but it´s not as cutting and dangerous as it was.
Yes, he still values that comrades above all else mindset, especially, when it comes to Sam, and just seems to ignore all the rest. But at least, he seems to be seeing what it does to others (read: Sam)
Sadly.. he does so only after he already screwed up.

When he dropped the "never let me down" bomb on Sam again, and Sam reacted with hurt sarcasm... Dean seemed to get, what he had just done and implied and tried to devert and soften it. But too late.

When you compare it to Southern COmfort, where he actually whole heartedly meant it, Sammy be screwed, this was alot better.

After the phone call in the end, he seemed to get, that he had hurt Sam and was actually softening towards Sam a little and he seemed genuinely upset about Sam´s pain.
But again, too late.

Dean is softening towards Sam... only, it seems to be too late and Sam too wounded already to welcome his brother back.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-07 05:08
Yes, I think that may be true, and I'm hoping they can come to proper understanding of each other, you know, before they hurt each other too much.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-09 12:59
Quote:
RMF, I just want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Dean. I think this is exactly what I've been trying to articulate. I do like the idea that he's stuck in the kill or be killed mindset, and that what he currently values most is someone to have his back, completely. I think that's a good explanantion of why he still seems so resentful of Sam. He's dredging up moments where he feels Sam hasn't had his back and using that to currently judge Sam as not a good brother. He's forgetting the rest of their history and attempting to replace it with "Benny's had my back constantly the last year and you haven't, not always." Ergo, Benny=better brother. 
One of the things I like about this storyline for Dean is that it doesn't come out of nowhere. Dean has been nagged for most of his life by the feeling that he needs his family more than his family needs him. He believed that John favored Sam even though Dean was the good soldier, and he believed Sam abandoned him for college and for Ruby. In Purgatory, he finally got to experience someone being there for him 100%, and that was deeply satisfying to him psychologically . When Dean gets topside again, he tries to plug Sam into that all-for-one, one-for-all, comrades-at-arm s role, but Sam keeps going off script. He says that he's with Dean for one last mission, but then he wants out (unfortunately, as well as this works for Dean's development, we can see at this point that great chunks of Sam's arc have been engineered to serve Dean's storyline, not his own). Sam argues; he has his own ideas and judgment. No matter how well they work together, there's no 100% return. I think that at some point, Dean will have to recognize that the same is actually true of Benny. Benny seems to have a genuine regard for Dean, but maybe his true motivation in Purgatory was just to get the hell out of there, and he wasn't as emotionally invested in Team Dean. Now that he's topside, he's struggling with temptation, and his survival agenda is obviously at odds with Dean's role as a hunter.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-09 13:34
And I forgot to add, the idea that Purgatory left a dark mark on Dean is a lot more compelling than the "the line for sainthood forms over there" mess we got in 8.07. A situation that dire should screw with his thinking, not leave him magically unscathed except for guilt that he wasn't more perfect.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-09 13:45
Quote:
And I forgot to add, the idea that Purgatory left a dark mark on Dean is a lot more compelling than the "the line for sainthood forms over there" mess we got in 8.07. A situation that dire should screw with his thinking, not leave him magically unscathed except for guilt that he wasn't more perfect.
This is pretty much spot on (in my little world at least)

Dean is a perfect soldier right now and his relationship with Sam is messy at best. Of course, there are feeling involved! It can´t be anything but messy.

His relationship with Benny formed the other way round: first there was that soldier aspect... then came the friendship.

With Sam it was the complete opposite. He finally had the chance to step out of that soldier personality, that he never was to begin with. Sam is a scholar at heart and looks at things from a different angle all the time.
And he was deeply wounded, psychologically speaking. He needed the time off to heal.

And so did Dean. Only Dean´s way to heal, would have been Purgatory.
While Sam´s was safety...

And I´m still not sure, that wasn´t engineered by some Supernatural force.
hedi
# hedi 2012-12-07 10:13
Oh come on! all these Sam did right , Dean didn't ... its just getting too much!!
I like the ep. not much . but it was good. although I find benny so soft for being a monster , aint he?! or he's just attached to his family and descendants i don't know.
I was pretty sure Amelia was real! it couldn't be a dream. BUT how did she found out about Sam is a mystery. I think both boys are on the edge right now. they are having a hard time trusting each other. they both did some wrongs in this ep. from Sam putting a tail on Benny to Dean sending a fake message to scare off Sam. and no one but themselves can make it right. i hope they can sit down in future episode and actually talk with each other .
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2012-12-07 13:17
I was starting to get on board the theory that Amelia wasn't real when the rug got pulled out from under me. I still can't stand her, although she seems to behave a lot nicer in the last couple of episodes, there's still no chemistry to speak of between her and Sam.

His attitude this season has been waffling between b*****y and supportive and that's bothering me cuz I have no idea what he's really thinking. I have to derive what he's thinking from those boring a** flashbacks and I keep skipping over them when I can.

Also it is possible that Benny's grand-daughter was the one who killed Benny. She had an awful lot of blood on her for just an observer. Also, I really like Benny and don't want to think he did it, especially when he was so willing to sacrifice himself for her. Just a thought.

I have no comment on the whole love triangle other than *ho-hum* boring!
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 12:21
Umm... haven't had a chance to read all of the comments but Sam CHOSE not to listen to Dean (Martin is not right to hunt, Martin will die, Benny is innocent, I trust. Him.) And Sam CHOSE to steal Martin's car and abandon him in the middle of a hunt. Dean chose to save Sam in the fastest way he knew how ( and I am sure he never thought Sam would abandon Mr. Loony in the woods).
Personally I think Carver is magnifying their core characteristics in preparation for a journey to personal growth and a healthier relationship. Dean can be a hardass and coldly efficient as well as snarky. He is also a leader and a consummate hunter, brilliant at seat of the pants strategizing. He is loyal, bears the guilt of the world, and considers himself everyone's protector. He shuts up when angry to maintain the peace.
Sam is smart and easily emphasizes with everyone but family who he blames for his life never being normal. He resents being the younger son and does not want to hunt. He runs when he feels too much emotion, especially when he's hurt.
the relationship is highly disfunctional. Dean equates Sam's aspirations with abandonment and Sam acts like a petulant teenager around Dean. Normally Dean shuts up and takes it. This season not so much. I fear what he might do if Sam kills Benny (who was justified in killing Martin and who is straight up a good Guy, sorry Benny haters).
What interests me is the role all other characters play in respect to the brothers.
Benny is a brother that is so in sync with Dean they could be twins. There are obvious comparisons to Sam (andrea/Jess, blood habits, overcoming the inner monster) but Dean and Benny are sympatico and their interactions show a deep bond and understanding. They listen to each other and see each other.
Castiel and Dean were also amazing to watch for the same reason. And again compare castiel to Sam; castiel realizes he can't run. Castiel feels guilt and wants to atone. Yes Dean feels too much guilt. Repeatedly we have Bern shown and told that Sam feels none! If nothing is ever his fault then the character cannot grow. Dean is right ... Sam has made bad choices... like castiel he has to own up and move forward.
Garth... if ever a man was not built for hunting it's Garth! Yet he does. He shows no fear and he aspires to fill the hole Bobby left. Sam has been derisive in 3 eps about Garth, but Garth did not run away ; he runs towards the fray and saved Sam's life. Dean can also take a page from Garth's lessons tobacco happy life!
Kevin is the most blatant comparison in that you cannot run away for ever.
Well I have probably said too much considering the audience. I do think it was necessary to reset the core characters and move forward. The previous showrunners made a mess character wise. Dean became a maudlin alcoholic who didn't want to hunt and Sam an eternal adolescent with mush for brains. And jumping into a hole without any personal growth is not a hero's journey. Not in my book and evidently not in Carver's. I think he took purgatory as the theme of the season and everyone is on a road trip to personal growth.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2012-12-08 14:09
For Sam, season 5 was all about facing up to what he did and atoning, and let's not forget all those years with the Devil. So I don't understand where you're coming from when comparing Sam to Cas. Actually, Cas realized he had to go back to Heaven because of Sam's speech to the psychic. In season 7, we learned that Sam had let go of his guilt, but he certainly felt regret. That's growth. Dean could learn a lot from that.

As for the relationship, those two need to talk because they don't believe in each other anymore.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-09 14:29
Quote:
Sam CHOSE not to listen to Dean (Martin is not right to hunt, Martin will die, Benny is innocent, I trust. Him.)
Yes, he did. Why do you feel this is a mistake? Why was Martin not right to hunt? He’d been released from hospital and was anxious to get back in the game. Also, why do you think Benny is innocent? What evidence has there been shown on screen that he is innocent?

Quote:
Dean chose to save Sam in the fastest way he knew how (and I am sure he never thought Sam would abandon Mr. Loony in the woods).
Why not? If he knew that Sam was so panicked that he’d drop everything and go to Amelia then why did he think he’d be so rational as to drop Martin off someplace first?

Quote:
He resents being the younger son and does not want to hunt.
I think Sam resents being treated like the younger son. He’s adult enough to know that he can’t change where he is chronologically in the family. However, he is almost thirty, has been involved in the hunting life almost as long as Dean (or longer than Dean depending on how you count the years) yet he is still being treated like a child with information being doled out to him when, and if, his ‘superiors’ feel it necessary. Until then, he’s just expected to toe the line and do what he’s told. He’s expected to go on blind faith and cast aside his own doubts because his big brother told him to. I don’t blame him for resenting that.

And no, he does not want to hunt. That’s not a crime. However, he does hunt. Why? And what does that say about him? He’s not hunting for revenge, and hasn’t in a long time.

Quote:
I fear what he might do if Sam kills Benny (who was justified in killing Martin and who is straight up a good Guy, sorry Benny haters).
That’s a bit black and white, isn’t it? But again, why do you automatically think Benny is a good guy? Is it because of all the monsters he killed in Purgatory? (I wonder if Benny was the only ‘good’ monster in Purgatory? If not, I wonder if they killed many other ‘good’ monsters.) Is it because of his relationship with Dean? Is it because Dean says so? Is the only reason you think he’s a good guy because Sam thinks he’s not?

Quote:
Benny is a brother that is so in sync with Dean they could be twins...... hey listen to each other and see each other.
And not at all surprising considering they spent a year together in Purgatory.

I’m just wondering, where do you want this relationship with Benny and Dean to go in the long run? Do you want him sitting in the back of the Impala (or the passenger seat in the Impala)? Do you want it to be Sam, Dean, Benny and Castiel or just Dean and Benny. If Benny dies, how do you think it should happen?

Quote:
Yes Dean feels too much guilt. Repeatedly we have Bern shown and told that Sam feels none!
No, we were shown for five years that he feels huge guilt. He also felt huge guilt for what he did as Soulless Sam. He tried to make amends for it at great risk to himself. In relation to what he did in season 4, he did considerable penance for that and feels that he’s served his time so he can move on. Do you think that he should hold the guilt for what he did forever and let that guilt dictate his thoughts and actions? Where’s the maturity in that?

Quote:
However, in relation If nothing is ever his fault then the character cannot grow. Dean is right ... Sam has made bad choices... like castiel he has to own up and move forward.
Sam has owned up, did his penance and then he moved forward. Castiel decided to stay in Purgatory as his penance, Sam decided to jump into the Cage as his penance. How are they different?

Quote:
Sam has been derisive in 3 eps about Garth, but Garth did not run away ....?
Do you mean Dean? Did Dean even speak to Garth in Time for A Wedding? He barely interacted with him in Party On, Garth and it was Dean who was jumping all over Garth in Southern Comfort. That’s why Dean was the one who got the scene with him at the end.

Quote:
Kevin is the most blatant comparison in that you cannot run away for ever.
Yet all characters have been seen to run away. All characters have been shown to try and avoid that which they do not want to deal with. It’s human nature to do that when things are overwhelming. We saw that with Sam in season 8. We saw it from Dean in season 2 and again in season 3.

Quote:
Well I have probably said too much considering the audience.
An audience of SPN fans? Well, if you think your argument could be better addressed in the Gossip Girl forum then feel free to bring it over there. I don’t know how much of a response you’d get because Sam and Dean don’t wear very nice clothes!

Quote:
jumping into a hole without any personal growth is not a hero's journey.
Wunderpat, what would be personal growth for you; in relation to both Sam AND Dean?
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 12:24
Oops. Forgot martin. Sam and martin...
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 14:47
Ha. Read a few more comments ... boy am I off the bell curve here. From my perspective, Sam looked worse here than in any previous episode. His hostility to Benny is emotional and highly hypocritical. He knew Amy was killing and he let her go. He had no problem letting kate go. He let Lenore's whole nest go. His problems with Benny stem from insecurity and his problems with Dean are a combination of same old thing and transference (Dean/Don) . Good lord he even ran from Amelia! Immature and selfish.
Dean's comment was meant to defend Benny not hurt Sam. Dean this season is no longer coddling baby brother. Good for him! Dean is the one with two mature relationships, not Sam. We still don't know whether Sam was stalking her all along. He seemed scared of Don and Amelia at the end.
Benny is good. Get over it. Anyone with addiction struggles. He tries and it will be hard without Elizabeth and Dean around.
They keep repeating lines this season. Martin says "I saw enough". Just like DEAN said in the premiere; Dean was wrong about castiel and martin was wrong about Benny. Sam is wrong about everything these days.
Dean came back from purgatory with empathy for monsters. He has learned actions define who one is, not categories. Remember in purgatory everyone was the vampire, the angel, the human. Despite the labels Dean learned to see the man behind the label. Brother is now a title to be earned. Benny and cas have earned it. Sam was born into it but never earned it.
Dean's ruthlessness in achieving his objective makes him a great hunter, albeit not a perfect person. Remember the only time Sam was considered a better hunter was when he was soulless. DEAN wanted to save everyone and did the best he could. I doubt the phone ead turned off. It was in the glove box and he was busy killing a vamp and protecting. What he does best.
I think it's important for both of their personal growth for Dean to stop coddling Sam.
Personally I think mama tran would agree with Dean; she would gladly die if it meant Crowley was dead and her son safe. Dean and mama tran are a lot alike.
I do not think Sam atoned, not in the sense he learned anything and emerged stronger or better- more heroic. Something is always wrong with Sam so he's always at fault. Castiel did bad and he doesn't blame Dean or the Levis. He's afraid he will do it again. He apologized, did penance, acknowledged his mistakes and now wants to make amends. Yes Sam 's words to Fred helped cas ; sadly Sam never listens to anyone. Sam has no guilt because he never admits he made a mistake. Subconsciously he knows and takes it out on Dean or Benny.
I think Carver realizes this and this season Sam is being Sam; his only problem now is viewing the world like a petulant adolescent. The way he spoke to martin was rude ; Dean commands respect from the sane and competent adults in the room. Sam makes faces, and pouts and pitches a fit and runs to his room and shuts the door and feels his emotions so strongly that he makes bad Choices... like a teenager.
yeah I think Dean will come close to killing him because purgatory left some residual mojo on him. With Dean, you're in or you're out. Sam is out.
Then Sam will hopefully see what a child he is and how he blames Dean for everything. Dean is the adult in the relationship. He can be blunt but he's a man.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 15:40
I have been spending some time trying to see Dean's perspective and think Dean is being judged a bit unfairly for his actions this year but I feel that you are being very, very harsh on Sam. You will find very little agreement here with your views on Sam. You are entited to your opinion of course
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-09 15:09
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He knew Amy was killing and he let her go......
Yep, and every time he did he was told that he was wrong to do so, and he saw that he was wrong to do so. Now, here he is having learnt the lesson and trying to apply it, and he’s wrong again.

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His problems with Benny stem from insecurity
Possibly. They could also stem from the fact that he doesn’t know him, he’s a vampire and they’re in an area where there are vampire kills happening.

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and his problems with Dean are a combination of same old thing and transference (Dean/Don) .
I'm not quite sure what you mean here but his problems with Dean started long before Don even came into the picture.

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Good lord he even ran from Amelia! Immature and selfish.
He left Amelia because he wanted to give her and Don a chance. He told her this, and she didn't disagree with him. Do you think he should have just said ‘Well, Don isn’t going to fight for her so no competition. Woohoo!!’ and stayed. That would have been immature and selfish. Amelia needed to spend time with Don, Sam enabled her to do that.

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Dean's comment was meant to defend Benny not hurt Sam.
Which could be true if he had not already said it on more than one occasion when they were not even discussing Benny.

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Dean this season is no longer coddling baby brother. Good for him!
Could you please give examples of when Dean was ‘coddling’ his baby brother? Thanks.

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Dean is the one with two mature relationships, not Sam.
Which two relationships are you referring to because Dean has had relationships with a number of people? Do you mean romantically? Romantically, Sam has had two mature relationships, Amelia and Jessica.

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We still don't know whether Sam was stalking her all along.
If he was stalking her, then her going to see her 6’4” stalker in a bar, after a long period when he wan't around at all, would have been monumentally stupid. You’d generally call the cops in a situation like that, not go and meet him.

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He seemed scared of Don and Amelia at the end.
Scared, or shocked? Maybe even a bit hopeful (that Amelia might be choosing him) Also, Don wasn’t there at the end. Surely if Sam was ‘stalking’ Amelia, she’d have brought along Don.

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Benny is good. Get over it. Anyone with addiction struggles.
Hmmm, it’s strange you weren’t so charitable to Sam when he had his ‘addition struggles’.

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He tries and it will be hard without Elizabeth and Dean around.
Bar when he went to save him, Dean wasn’t around him up until this episode. Would you like Benny to ride in the back of the Impala so Dean can mind him? Oh wait, if he does that, then that will be Dean ‘coddling him’ so they can’t be equal any more.

Also, with Elizabeth, I’m sorry but the very fact that Benny is a vampire puts her in danger. And how strange (again!) that there’s a vampire in the area that Benny is in. Was that another coincidence? Did Benny choose that area because there was a vampire already there or did Desmond chose that area because Benny was there. If the latter, how safe was Elizabeth going to be in the long run?

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Sam is wrong about everything these days.
Is he? What’s he wrong about? Benny, that’s still open for debate. Dean? Ditto. Wrong about Amelia? Well, she came to him at the end so the relationship, even if it’s over, did not end badly. However, every relationship that did not end with a lifelong marriage could be argued to be ‘wrong’.

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Dean came back from purgatory with empathy for monsters...... the man behind the label.
For 20 odd years Sam was the one who could see the person behind the label, and was considered untrustworthy because of it. Dean, for 30 years was, for the most part, very black and white about monsters, now he comes back from Purgatory having done a complete 180 and we’re just to take that as the status quo and not think it strange?

And rather ironically, wunderpat, earlier you were arguing about how wrong Sam was to trust monsters while here you’re lauding Dean for doing the same!

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Brother is now a title to be earned. Benny and cas have earned it. Sam was born into it but never earned it.
If both Castiel and Benny earned it via their actions, then Sam more than has. He’s been fighting side by side with Dean for far longer than either of them. He’s saved his life more times than either of them, has sacrificed more than either of them for him.

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Dean's ruthlessness in achieving his objective makes him a great hunter, albeit not a perfect person.
Then via your argument Martin is a great hunter, because he set about achieving his objective by being ruthless.

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Remember the only time Sam was considered a better hunter was when he was soulless.
Ironic then that when Sam does what Dean does he’s a monster, when Dean does it he’s an excellent hunter. (I gotta say wunderpat, you’re not exactly portraying Dean in a positive way here!)

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I think it's important for both of their personal growth for Dean to stop coddling Sam.
Yes, it’s also important for both of their personal growth for Dean to treat Sam like an equal and not like some toy to be cast aside when someone shinier comes along because Sam didn’t work the way that Dean wanted it too.

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Personally I think mama tran would agree with Dean; she would gladly die if it meant Crowley was dead and her son safe. Dean and mama tran are a lot alike.
And Sam wouldn’t do that? He gladly went into the Cage because it meant that Lucifer would be gone and Dean, and everyone else, would be safe.

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I do not think Sam atoned, not in the sense he learned anything and emerged stronger or better- more heroic.
Could you kindly give me your definition of ‘atonement’ because I fear it is different to mine? How would you have liked Sam to emerge from the Cage?

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Something is always wrong with Sam so he's always at fault. Castiel did bad and he doesn't blame Dean or the Levis. He's afraid he will do it again. He apologized, did penance, acknowledged his mistakes and now wants to make amends. Yes Sam 's words to Fred helped cas ; sadly Sam never listens to anyone.
You might want to watch The Man Who Would Be King again because Castiel does put an element of blame on Dean.

Yes, there is often something ‘wrong’ with Sam. Sometimes it’s of his own making (demon blood), sometimes it’s not. Sam is hardly at fault for what was done to him as a baby. He was not at fault for what Soulless Sam did. Sam is not at fault for the way Dean thinks about him.

Sam has listened to Dean, on more than one occasion. He listened to Dean all the times Dean told him it was wrong to trust a monster. He listened to Dean for most of season 5 when Dean was unrelenting in his blame and condemnation of Sam. He listened to Dean when Dean wanted Sam to think of him as his stone number one, he listened to Dean about Amy. He’s followed Dean’s lead on hunts umpteen times. It’s certainly not true that Sam listens to no-one.

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Sam has no guilt because he never admits he made a mistake.
Not at all true. Sam has admitted that he has made mistakes on multiple occasions. He has also atoned for those mistakes, realised he’s done his time for them and moved forward.

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Subconsciously he knows and takes it out on Dean or Benny.
When?

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I think Carver realizes this and this season Sam is being Sam; his only problem now is viewing the world like a petulant adolescent.
Sam is viewing the world pragmatically. He’s also viewing the world with a view to making a little part of it what he wants, for him. Is that selfish? It could be perceived as such. However, then it could also be argued that Dean is being selfish by wanting what he wants, and that is Sam hunting with him, despite Sam making it clear that he doesn’t want to hunt.

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The way he spoke to martin was rude.
When, after Martin coldcocked Dean? You were expecting polite behaviour then? Also, Dean spoke to Martin in much the same way. Was that also rude?

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Dean commands respect from the sane and competent adults in the room.
So only the sane and competent adults in the room respect Dean, everyone else is nuts? wunderpat, that pedestal you’ve put Dean on is so high I can’t even see him anymore!

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Sam makes faces, and pouts and pitches a fit and runs to his room and shuts the door and feels his emotions so strongly that he makes bad Choices... like a teenager.
No he doesn’t, he gave Dean the time he asked for, listened to his argument, and made up his own mind based on what was presented to him by both Martin and Dean. Making up your own mind is actually an adult thing to do. Doing something you don’t want to because someone else tells you to is what toddlers do.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 15:25
Thanks for that Tim. I don't recognize the Sam that Wonderpat describes even slightly. Your take on him (and Dean) allows them to be human.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 16:02
I echo eilf's thanks. This is a great response about two flawed characters, not one evil childish brother and a perfect saint. Both brothers have flaws. Both have strengths.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 16:42
Who are you and what have you done with percysowner??
:-) :-) Give her back.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 17:10
Sorry?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-09 15:13
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With Dean, you're in or you're out. Sam is out.
And therein lies the problem because if this is the way the show is going, then it is Dean dictating who is acceptable and who is not, while never applying the same criteria to himself. Earlier you argued that Sam is a child, but taking this comment you made into account, it’s Dean who is acting like a petulant teenager because it’s his way or no way. It’s like Dean has a little treehouse and he’ll only let in the people that are nice to him and who do what he tells them to!

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Then Sam will hopefully see what a child he is and how he blames Dean for everything.
What has Sam blamed Dean for this season? It’s possible he’ll blame Dean for the text message but Dean is the one who sent it (unless it was angel intervention again.....).
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-08 15:42
Hi wunderpat.
Its a little off the subject (forgive me) but if you look at both their histories;
Dean's only real role has been the protector/rescu er and has never allowed Sam to truly grow, demanding absolute loyalty as proof of love bcz that is all he knows. We all know his primary emotion is fear of losing this role, and so I suggest his anger is not that Sam didn't look for him, perhaps it is more that Sam didn't need rescuing. (with Benny, his role is (no surprise here) rescuer once again, I feel his connection with Benny might have more to do with this than purgatory, which is perhaps why he has purpose again).
Sam on the other hand has always needed to be saved. Dean saves him as a baby, Jess saves him at Uni, Ruby saved him after Dean's pittrip, and now it is Amelia who has come to his rescue. He has never been given an opportunity to grow up and trust himself alone.

Each of these boys' identity is tied up with the other. I cannot see how they can be apart and function normally no matter how much they would like to think they can. They need each other, but not in a good way.

Both brothers have been stuck in this pattern and I think it is this that Carver is aiming to address now and allow these (now 30+) men to finally face their own issues. With only 2 more seasons to go, he had better hurry :-)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 15:45
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Sam is out.
I desperately hope so.Then i hope Sam sees how miserable he is because of Dean and find happiness.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 17:56
I don't know how to reply individually so... I am enjoying the discussion. I am aware that I am probably odd man out here. I come here for a different perspective but rarely comment, mostly because I understand how passionate people are and I don't want to cause misery. I am pretty hard on Sam. I do not get him. I do get Dean pretty.
I would agree that Dean is an enabler and he is damaged. I don't think he can prevent Sam from growing up. He has never prevented him from leaving. The problem is that Sam leaves and things go amuck and he comes back and he blames john or Dean or Lucifer. He sees greener grass everywhere but Dean. Dean lives to protect and lives for family. Obviously he needs to learn that Sam can love him but not be like him. Sam can't completely escape hunting because as we have seen normal is boring. I thought he would be a better Bobby 2.0 than Garth... and he could have some normal. Frankly I don't think he has ever been comfortable when the s... hits the fan. Dean lives for it. In purgatory Dean thought he was protecting castiel, but he and Benny were equals. In fact they saved each other this time around.
Neither brother is perfect but Dean puts others before himself to a fault. Sam can put himself first- which can be a good thing - but not so much lately (I agree with the commenter that said leaving martin was one in a series of bad calls that Sam made). Both have baggage that they need to lose. Thank Carver they will. Yes it is weird to expect two grown men to be joined at the hip. I actually think Dean is realizing that he and Sam are very different. Unfortunately his response is emotional as he adjusts to the information. As we all know we chose our friends ...
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 18:30
Wunderpat- These brothers, although on different pages- hell on different planets, know very much the others soft spots and go for it. Many times when Sam left he was pushed to it. I think Dean is well aware of their differences but that hasn't prevented him from loving and trying to protect his brother. What they need to do is accept each others differences. Dean's feelings of betrayal have, not surprisingly, led him to lash out at Sam and Sam not surprisingly resents the crap out of it. You said it, neither brother is perfect but will they ever learn to communicate and RESPECT each other? I hope all this angst is leading to a new understanding.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-09 16:04
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I come here for a different perspective but rarely comment, mostly because I understand how passionate people are and I don't want to cause misery. You’re not causing misery.
You're not causing misery. I find your comments quite amusing and I’m having tremendous fun replying to them.

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I am pretty hard on Sam. I do not get him. I do get Dean pretty.
So you’re hard on him because you don’t understand him. Perhaps if you were less hard on him that would enable you to understand him. You know, if you could look at Sam and his actions the same way you look at Dean and his similar actions, you might actually like him!

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...He has never prevented him from leaving.
Nope, but he's always mad keen to bring him back (and assumes that he will stay back.) Actually, how many times has Sam left?

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The problem is that Sam leaves and things go amuck and he comes back and he blames john or Dean or Lucifer.
Things go amuck when he stays as well. And when has he blamed John or Dean or Lucifer? He was at huge odds with his father growing up because he did not to be involved in that life. When he actually got to talk to his father, he realised, and appreciated, what John had done. Sam never put Jessica or YED’s actions on his father. We’ve seen a hell of a lot more of Dean putting the way his life turned out at his fathers feet.

He blames Dean when? In Fallen Idols? Perhaps you should rewatch that scene again. He said ‘One of the reasons I went off with Ruby was to get away from you..’ Note: ‘One of the reasons...’ not ‘The reason....’, thus saying there was more than one reason. There was, and more were addressed in Sam, Interrupted. He also didn’t say ‘One of the reasons I started the Apocalypse was because of you’.

Add to that, Sam accepted full responsibility for what he did. ‘I know what I did. What I’ve done...’ and ‘No, it’s my fault’ were both lines from Sam in that episode.

Re blaming Lucifer. I don’t know what incident you’re referring to here. Was it because of his time as Soulless Sam? Sam took full responsibility for that; even when others told him not to. What other actions were there that Sam could have blamed on Lucifer?

Ironically, if you feel that Sam blames Dean for things then you also need to consider the same is true for Dean who has oft times 'blamed' his actions on Sam. His reason for saying ‘Yes’ to Michael was because he didn’t think Sam was strong enough to say ‘No’ to Lucifer. His reason for killing Amy was because Sam couldn’t so wunderpat, if you’re going to condemn Sam for doing as you say then you need to look at other characters that do the same thing equally harshly.

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He sees greener grass everywhere but Dean.
He sees greener grass everywhere but hunting.

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Sam can't completely escape hunting because as we have seen normal is boring.
So Sam can’t get out of why he hates doing because you think the alternative is ‘boring’? Oh, my...... wunderpat, life is boring. For the most part you get up, go to work/school, come home, eat, spend time with your family and friends and go to bed. Rinse and repeat for 80 years. Sorry, that’s boring. However, it's a 'boring' that billions of people around the world are happy to do every day. Do you think we should all just give up all that and start engaging in high jinx because it’d be more ‘exciting’. Also, if you do the same thing every day for decades (hunt) then wouldn’t that be what’s boring?

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Dean lives for it. In purgatory Dean thought he was protecting astile, but he and Benny were equals. In fact they saved each other this time around.
If Dean lives for the excitement of the hunt then why has the cost of that excitement been to the forefront of his personality for years? Also, how does that tie in with the guilt Dean carries? Do you think Dean only feel guilty because he enjoys the excitement of the hunt?

Also, Sam and Dean have saved each other multiple times and protected each other multiple times but you don’t seem to consider then equals.

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(I agree with the commenter that said leaving martin was one in a series of bad calls that Sam made).
Hypothetically speaking, if Martin caught Benny chowing down on someone, would it have been a bad call to bring him in? If Amelia WAS in trouble and Sam continued with Martin, what would have been the bad call then?

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I actually think Dean is realizing that he and Sam are very different.
I think Dean realised that years ago. However, at their core they are very much the same.

However, when he realises that Sam is different to him this time, (though Dean now is like early seasons Sam in terms of his thinking and rationale so how different are they really?) do you think he will he embrace Sam or reject Sam?

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As we all know we chose our friends ...
Do you not think Sam and Dean are friends? Add to that, do friends usually put conditions on friendship? And let's face it, Dean is choosing who is family (Bobby, Castiel, Bobby).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-09 22:48
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I find your comments quite amusing and I’m having tremendous fun replying to them.
I agree.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 19:09
Sam running away is an ongoing behavior for him since he was a child. Did Amelia push buttons ... no but he ran away from her despite her asking him not to, because he got too emotional and could not deal. Then he acts like Dean ruined his chance at normal when in fact he went to Rufus ' cabin because he had no place else to go. He left a mentally incompetent man who he dragged intoba dangerous situation, yelled at when he said something he didn't want to hear, stile his car and left without a word. That is not mature or rational behavior. Dean sent the text because he believed it would save Sam and Martin. Dean did did not know the circumstances of Sam's relationship ending. He was not intentionally being cruel. It was the Sam as calling Sam on a vampire hunt knowing he would rant and using the noise as vamp bait. It's cold but it is smart too.
Sam has not bothered to ask cas about Benny or express thanks that Dean owes his life to Benny. He's angry that Dean has someone and he did not. Sam is the one sticking the knife in and Martin paid the price. Any human worth his salt would have recognized Martin was in no shape to hunt.
I will say I do think both brothers have flaws and the relationship is dysfunctional. I do think Carver plans to repair it and it will take all season to get them their. I hope a great character like Benny does not suffer as a result. It will only be harder for him to resist now after that sad bloodbath. He may decide he deserves purgatory and deliberately feed, or deliberately allow Sam to kill him.
E
# E 2012-12-08 21:49
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Sam running away is an ongoing behavior for him since he was a child. Did Amelia push buttons ... no but he ran away from her despite her asking him not to, because he got too emotional and could not deal.

The relationship ended with the return of Don and not because Sam was "too emotional". Sam made a decision to leave and informed Amelia about his decision and then he left as he said he would; it was actually quite civil. I am not sure where you are seeing all this emotion that he is supposedly reacting to; he actually seemed quite stoic. It was the gentlemanly thing to do in this case seeing as how her husband had returned. Your characterization of "running away" is not exactly accurate. Generally when someone runs away, the people they are running away from don't know about the leaving part in advance. In this case Amelia DID know because Sam told her, hence NOT running away. What was he supposed to do? Stay and have a threesome?

Then he acts like Dean ruined his chance at normal when in fact he went to Rufus ' cabin because he had no place else to go.

Show me the dialogue in which Sam blames Dean at the cabin for ruining his normal life, because I must have missed that part. The loss of Sam's normal occurred because of the return of Don and had absolutely nothing to do with Dean, something that Sam understands, but Dean doesn't because he hasn't asked Sam one thing about Amelia.

He left a mentally incompetent man who he dragged intoba dangerous situation, yelled at when he said something he didn't want to hear, stile his car and left without a word. That is not mature or rational behavior.

The "mentally incompetent man" was an adult and capable of making his own decisions. Sam yelled at him in defense OF Dean. Sam's irrational and immature behavior that you find so troubling was CAUSED by Dean.

Dean sent the text because he believed it would save Sam and Martin. Dean did did not know the circumstances of Sam's relationship ending. He was not intentionally being cruel. It was the Sam as calling Sam on a vampire hunt knowing he would rant and using the noise as vamp bait. It's cold but it is smart too.

Save Sam and Martin from what exactly? Being out in the woods nowhere near either vampire and in no danger whatsoever? Dean does not know anything about how cruel the text message trick was because he has shown no interest in finding out about Sam's year. He is cruel by ignorance and that's worse IMO. And I am really glad that Dean finds Sam's panic for the well being of those he loves so 'useful' on hunts.

Sam has not bothered to ask cas about Benny or express thanks that Dean owes his life to Benny. He's angry that Dean has someone and he did not.

Sam has seen Cas for all of a few hours, not really much time to have a heart to heart with him about Dean and purgatory, not with Dean around. And Dean does not owe his life to Benny... Benny owes his life to Dean; it was in Benny's own interest to protect Dean. I didn't see Benny protecting other souls in purgatory out of the goodness of his heart. He could have cared less for Cas and would have gotten rid of him if he felt he could have gotten away with it. But he wasn't prepared to piss off his ride out of purgatory on the soul train enough to risk messing with his meal ticket. Sam is not 'angry' that Dean had someone and he didn't, he had Amelia and Ill bet their relationship has been a whole lot more fun than Dean and Benny's.

Sam is the one sticking the knife in and Martin paid the price. Any human worth his salt would have recognized Martin was in no shape to hunt.

Sam is not responsible for Martin. Martin was a hunter, who asked for a job and like countless times before with other hunters, Sam gave him one. Not his fault that Martin couldn't hack it. Martin made his own choices, and paid the price. He would have gone after Benny no matter what.

I will say I do think both brothers have flaws and the relationship is dysfunctional. I do think Carver plans to repair it and it will take all season to get them their. I hope a great character like Benny does not suffer as a result. It will only be harder for him to resist now after that sad bloodbath. He may decide he deserves purgatory and deliberately feed, or deliberately allow Sam to kill him.
Benny was already having a lot of trouble just being back on earth as he has said several times. This episode with Martin only sent him to where he's been heading all along.

Considering you find both brother's to have flaws as you say, this is quite a litany of Sam flaws and a whole lot of flawless Dean. I agree with your posts in only one respect; I also think Carver is planning to put them both through the ringer in order to create understanding that will lead to a stronger relationship in the future. Sorry to be so longwinded and maybe a little harsh. You are entitled to your opinion of course. I am more evenly bi-bro myself, but I have distinct Sam leanings. I try very had to keep a realistic perspective on both brothers, but I don't find your views on Sam very grounded in the actually of the show or all that fair to his character.
E
# E 2012-12-08 21:51
Crap. I tried to do the quote/response thing, but it didn't work. I hope you don't have too much trouble seeing where I was quoting wunderpat and where my responses are. How DO you get those multiple quote lines into a response anyway?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-08 22:18
There may be an easier way, but when I want to answer to part of a message I highlight the text I want to quote, click the button that looks like a quotation mark in the reply box. You then get a message enter text to quote here. Paste in the copied text and hit okay. Then make your response, find the next piece of text and repeat as necessary. You won't get the name of the poster attached to the quotes, but you can add it if you want.
E
# E 2012-12-08 23:11
Thanks Percysowner, I'll try that next time. I don't generally do a line by line critique like the one I botched except when I find a post troubling, one sided or unrealistic in multiple ways.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-09 16:36
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Sam running away is an ongoing behavior for him since he was a child.
Then Dean abandoning Sam because he’s found something else is also an ongoing behaviour. When Dean was a child, he left Sam to go and play an arcade game. He left him in Plucky’s etc to go pick up girls. You could them argue that same logic when he choose Castiel and Benny over him (without the girly parts...).

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Did Amelia push buttons ... no but he ran away from her despite her asking him not to, because he got too emotional and could not deal.
Amelia did not ask Sam not to go. She asked him why he was going. When he gave the reasons she said nothing. Silent affirmation?

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Then he acts like Dean ruined his chance at normal when in fact he went to Rufus ' cabin because he had no place else to go.
How is he acting as if Dean ruined his chance at normal? That might be your reading of the situation but you have already admitted to being hard on Sam, and you do seem to consider him in the very worst light. Sam chose to do this last hunt with Dean but he’s made it clear that he’s out after it. Do you think he should be curling up at the bottom of Dean’s bed while he sleeps or hanging onto Dean’s legs when he’s awake to show his relief that he’s back?

We also don’t know why he went to Rufus’s cabin. Not yet.

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He left a mentally incompetent man who he dragged intoba dangerous situation, yelled at when he said something he didn't want to hear, stile his car and left without a word. That is not mature or rational behavior.
A mentally incompetent man who had been released from the hospital. Hospitals don’t generally release people unless they believe they’re okay. So unless you believe that those who mess up once, or those who are sick, or need help or are overwhelmed should just be locked away so that the rest of society won’t have to deal with them then Martin does deserve to be treated like a human being.

He contacted Sam, who asked him to track but not touch, with regards to Benny. Should Sam have just hung up the phone on him? (Would Dean have just hung up the phone on him?) Do you think Sam should have sent Martin on a hunt for a wendigo somewhere, get him out of the way, maybe permanently? After all, he is (according to you) ‘mentally incompetent’ and apparently this disqualifies him from being listened to or having his ideas worthy of any consideration.

A question for consideration; If it wasn’t Benny, but a random vampire who Martin saw in the diner, and then saw him turn off the path to, minutes later, come across the body of a customer Desmond was interacting with earlier, if he has seen Desmond washing the blood off his hands after burying the second body, would Dean, even post Purgatory Dean have killed him?

Another question for consideration; if Benny were a demon, would people be so quick to trust him?

Quote:
Dean sent the text because he believed it would save Sam and Martin.
Dean sent the text because he knew that Sam would drop everything and go to Amelia.

Quote:
Dean did did not know the circumstances of Sam's relationship ending.
Yet he knew that the relationship was a strong one, as Sam told him that they had a place together.

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He was not intentionally being cruel.
Intentionally cruel, no. Cruel? Yes. Why didn’t he send Sam a text telling him to hold off, that he was hunting Desmond? Why did Benny want to go on the hunt with Dean? Was it to protect him, or because he didn’t want Dean talking to Desmond? Was he afraid of what Desmond would say?

Quote:
It was the Sam as calling Sam on a vampire hunt knowing he would rant and using the noise as vamp bait. It's cold but it is smart too.
Do you think Sam is so incompetent that he would have his phone on full volume, and then rant at full volume, if they were anywhere near the vampire?? Add to that, Dean said that Benny wasn’t the vampire, and they were tracking Benny so what fear was there that the phone would be used as vampire bait when they were looking for the ‘wrong’ vampire, therefore were most probably in the wrong place?

Quote:
Sam has not bothered to ask cas about Benny or express thanks that Dean owes his life to Benny.
Castiel has barely been around. We’ve seen him in two episodes, and in both of those he was pretty preoccupied. I don't think the time was right for Sam to sit Castiel down, give him a cup of hot chocolate and say 'Right, tell me about Benny'.

Quote:
He's angry that Dean has someone and he did not.
He had Amelia.

Quote:
Any human worth his salt would have recognized Martin was in no shape to hunt.
Why not? He acted the same as many other hunters we’ve seen. He managed to find Benny, track him etc and then called Sam and Dean. He used logic to determine that Benny was the killer; a logic, and evidence that, in seasons past, would have seen Dean killed Benny.

Quote:
He (Benny) may decide he deserves purgatory and deliberately feed, or deliberately allow Sam to kill him.
Why would he deliberately allow Sam to kill him? He doesn’t even know Sam. Surely that honour would fall to Dean, as his friend. Also, now that both he and Dean know there’s a way out of Purgatory surely anyone bar Dean killing Benny would do nothing more than ensure that Dean tries to get him out again. So if Benny decides he wants to go back to Purgatory, I doubt it will be Sam he asks to do it (unless he has a desire to see Sam and Dean at odds permanently).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-09 22:47
Quote:
no but he ran away from her despite her asking him not to, because he got too emotional and could not deal.
Cooking up things I see.Quote:
He left a mentally incompetent man who he dragged intoba dangerous situation, yelled at when he said something he didn't want to hear, stile his car and left without a word. That is not mature or rational behavior.
Dean also goaded martin without giving him a chance .Sam was panicked definitely he was not rational.Quote:
Dean did did not know the circumstances of Sam's relationship ending.
Dean does not want to know the circumstances ..There is a huge difference.Quote:
It was the Sam as calling Sam on a vampire hunt knowing he would rant and using the noise as vamp bait.
Huh????Quote:
Sam has not bothered to ask cas about Benny or express thanks that Dean owes his life to Benny.
Why should sam ask cas ?Shouldn't Dean tell Sam that.Dean did not trust Sam enough so that he can meet Benny.So I don't expect Sam to just follow Dean's words.Quote:
express thanks that Dean owes his life to Benny.
To whom?Quote:
He's angry that Dean has someone and he did not.
You are free to say that but this has not been established.Quote:
Sam is the one sticking the knife in and Martin paid the price.
Laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes.Quote:
Any human worth his salt would have recognized Martin was in no shape to hunt.
You are on a roll aren't you.Quote:
I will say I do think both brothers have flaws and the relationship is dysfunctional.
Oh yeah! This i agree.But some of the faults which you perceive I don't agree with.Quote:
I hope a great character like Benny does not suffer as a result. It will only be harder for him to resist now after that sad bloodbath. He may decide he deserves purgatory and deliberately feed, or deliberately allow Sam to kill him.
these maybe's again.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 19:14
Sorry for typos.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 20:10
Dean never said Sam was untrustworthy. He said he trusted Benny because Benny never let him down. He was thinking of Benny's innocence and how to express his belief in him. Sam perceived that the commercial was directed at him. Of course then he goes on to not have his brother's back and allows him to be knocked unconscious and cuffed to a radiator. The Winchester s do that to protect an innocent NOT to kill each other's friends. Dean was talking and being reasonable and Sam and martin were not. Sam was the one who didn't trust Dean's judgement, which is funny... when has Dean the hunter been wrong... in season 2 when he was too happy to kill innocent camps perhaps?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-09 17:01
Quote:
Dean never said Sam was untrustworthy.
Yet he constantly shows that's what he believes via his actions, and with what he keeps from Sam. Why didn’t he trust Sam with information about Benny? Why has he told him nothing of merit about Purgatory? In 8.01 there was loads to suggest that Dean and Benny got up to some naughtiness there “...what we did down there is what we had to do, I don't regret a second “Purgatory WAS pure, I'm kinda wishin' I had appreciated it more, ya know, like you?” (Hmmm, that sound like a Fifty Shades of Grey kinda naughtiness. I didn't mean it to!) Yet he hasn't told Sam about any of that either. Could we see another torturing in hell type scenario?

Quote:
He said he trusted Benny because Benny never let him down. He was thinking of Benny's innocence and how to express his belief in him.
What could have expressed his belief in Benny would be bringing Sam to Benny, not keep him on a ‘need to know’ basis. Though, of course, when Dean went looking for Benny he had the machete behind his back so how much does Dean believe in Benny?

Quote:
Sam perceived that the commercial was directed at him.
Well, Dean wasn’t saying it to Martin......

Quote:
Of course then he goes on to not have his brother's back and allows him to be knocked unconscious and cuffed to a radiator.
Sam didn’t know Martin was going to knock him unconscious. I guess you could read the cuffing him to the radiator the same way you could read the text message ‘It was necessary to keep him out of the way in order for Sam/Dean to do what they needed to do; protect the ‘innocent’. I believe you referred to it earlier as ‘ruthlessly effective’.

Question, when Dean tricked Sam, locked him into the Panic Room, knocked him out (numerous times) etc did he have his brother’s back?

Quote:
The Winchester s do that to protect an innocent NOT to kill each other's friends.
What if killing a ‘friend’ does save an innocent?

Quote:
when has Dean the hunter been wrong... in season 2 when he was too happy to kill innocent vamps perhaps?
Or innocent monsters perhaps? There you go, Sam was right all along, it just took Dean 7 seasons to realise it!
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-08 20:17
Drat! Last sentence refers to vamps not camps.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-09 00:06
Sam chose to leave martin. Dean did not cause Sam to do anything. It's ludicrous to think dean makes him do anything Sam choses. He is a grown man not a marionette. If he were possessed ... he would be innocent. In this case he chose. Dean was possessed in SC, otherwise he never would have said such hurtful things, things he had obviously buried or years... but Sam made all of those bad choices and he chose to leave martin who was as ill equipped to cope as Kevin (also abandoned! ) chose to ignore glaring signs that martin was unstable, chose to side with martin over Dean, chose to conduct a witchhunt against Benny who Dean vouched for and hunted with, chose to not hunt kate whom he had never met, and chose to leave Amelia rather than deal with a messy situation. Dean chose to take Sam's unreasonable concerns seriously and calmly even though Sam blatantly insulted him and was goading him. Dean repeatedly chose to talk to Sam. Dean chose to save lives by any means necessary . Dean chose to hunt the actual killer. Dean chose not to kill Sam in previous seasons when most other hunters wanted to, and went to great lengths to protect him. Gordon saw Sam as a monster to be killed, just Like any other blood drinking unholy abomination. Dean chose to support and protect sam like he chose to support and protect Benny. Dean chose to ignore John's dying words and went against the angelic host because he chose his brother.
As to the other comments. I interpret what I see as do you. I saw amelia walk in while he was packing and question him. I saw her beg him to stay. I saw him leave in the middle of the night saying good-bye to the dog and not to her. But yeah it is unusual for there to be a conversation before he takes off. In my opinion, the only reason he hates Benny is jealousy. He says it in SC - "you HAD Benny"', as if Benny and Dean bonded in purgatory to hurt him. Dean didn't chose purgatory. He chose to survive, to find cas, and return to Sam. Dean/Don both came back from "death" and Sam lost his vaseline coated fuzzy wuzzy life. Of course there is transference in sam's mind- why else make the names and situations so close. It is Canon that Sam leaves his family because he wants normal. It is not a stretch to infer he thinks his family prevents him from having normal. Resentment of Dean explains sam' behavior at Dean's return (opposite from his reaction to cas) better than all the demon/angel/alp ha deal theories that floated around. I never needed those theories or bought into them because the Sam I know would run away; that's what he does. That's what he choses to do. And no its not Dean's fault, orLucifer's fault or demon blood 's fault- it is Sam's choice. The show has done the character a real disservice by having it always be someone else's fault. From my perspective Carver is erasing that peculiar idea that a grown man is not responsible for his choices.

I think a lot of Sam's choices stem from extreme hubris (he was Lucifer's one true vessel after all), coupled with insecurity. He deeply resents his older brother who was the good son, the good little soldier, the natural hunter, completely at ease in the supernatural world. Of course for the most part Dean enabled his spoiled younger brother to shirk responsibility for his actions. Dean chose to go hungry so Sam could eat as a child. Sam chose to run away knowing that john would punish Dean in response (typical younger sibling power play). I am sure Sam will chose to run again and someone important to him will die- because he only hunts for revenge. That's the way he rolls. Dean hunts to protect. Sam hunts when he's pissed off. They are opposite sides of the coin, in temperament and currently at odds with each other. Classic Greek tragedy features tragic heroes whose lives are misery because they are in excess in some regard. Success results from taking the middle way, nothing in excess. So lets hope they can meet in the middle, both tempering the traits they possess in abundance. Too much guilt and taking too much responsibility leads Dean astray. Too much emotion, anger/fear/jeal ousy/vengeance leads Sam astray. Carver seems to be enunciating these tragic flaws under a high beam of scrutiny. It hurts, but it's necessary to see the issues to move forward. Thank goodness they are fictional characters and can't feel pain!
Yikes! Bad news that 8:10 will be more heart wretching, and a messed IP castiel to boot. I about died this week.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 01:02
Quote:
Sam lost his vaseline coated fuzzy wuzzy life.
I agree with this line.

Though of course we still have a few things to learn about Sam's year. Roll on Jan 16th
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-09 05:23
He may very well of done wunderpat but that vaseline fuzzy wuzzy life was important to him . Sam left his family to have normal so does most who go to college maybe its me but I dont exactly see that has a life long punishable offence unless of course Sam was meant to live his life according to his family's wants.

I obviously dont see either Sam or Dean the way you do . Sam isnt the walking representation of faults and wrongs you seem to think he is and I dont see Dean as the standard bearer of all thats good in a brother . I think Dean is subject to the same flaws and thoughtless behaviour that Sam is often accused of .But I suppose its different horses for different courses .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-09 01:30
Quote:
Sam chose to leave martin. Dean did not cause Sam to do anything. It's ludicrous to think dean makes him do anything Sam chooses.
But its not ridiculous to think that Dean can trick and take benefit of Sam's trust.Quote:
If he were possessed ... he would be innocent. In this case he chose. Dean was possessed in SC, otherwise he never would have said such hurtful things, things he had obviously buried or years...
Sam when possessed by Ellicot was not given a free pass ...so why should dean be.The spectre latches on to resentment that the possessed feels so we might have thought otherwise it was definitely not.Quote:
he chose to leave martin who was as ill equipped to cope as Kevin (also abandoned! ) chose to ignore glaring signs that martin was unstable,
Kevin is not Sam's responsibility.If Sam was the reason for Kevin being the prophet then I would have agreed with you.Martin was not mentally unstable ,he was jittery at times.The thing which was responsible for martin's death was he was not willing to think of a possibility of Benny not being the bad guy in this case...which hunters all around the world have been doing,which Dean himself has done during Amy's case.Quote:
chose to side with martin over Dean, chose to conduct a witch hunt against Benny who Dean vouched for and hunted with, chose to not hunt Kate whom he had never met, and chose to leave Amelia rather than deal with a messy situation.
He was dealing with the messy situation..If Dean is not able to convince Sam logically then Sam has no reason to trust Dean.If Dean's only logic is what Benny told him then it was simply not sufficient.Quote:
Dean chose to take Sam's unreasonable concerns seriously and calmly even though Sam blatantly insulted him and was goading him.
No he got personal and insulted Sam and Martin.Quote:
Dean repeatedly chose to talk to Sam. Dean chose to save lives by any means necessary .
No he did not .He did not include Sam when he went to meet Benny.Sam has no obligation to trust someone who does not want to return the trust,John and Dean have never trusted Sam fully..so he is not obliged to trust them fully.Quote:
Dean chose to hunt the actual killer.
Who he only knew because of Benny's words.Quote:
Dean chose not to kill Sam in previous seasons when most other hunters wanted to, and went to great lengths to protect him. Gordon saw Sam as a monster to be killed, just Like any other blood drinking unholy abomination. Dean chose to support and protect Sam like he chose to support and protect Benny. Dean chose to ignore John's dying words and went against the angelic host because he chose his brother.
Dean could not kill Sam because he has to feel needed and in that moment only Sam was the one who could satisfy at least some of Dean's insecurities.Dean did not kill Sam because he knew Sam.Dean did not kill Benny because he knows Benny not properly but in purgatory.Sam gave Dean a chance to prove rather than go kill Benny behind Dean's back because he knows Dean and wanted Dean to know .Sam wanted to kill Benny because Dean could not tell anything else than Benny told him so and could not trust Sam enough to meet Benny.Quote:
I saw Amelia walk in while he was packing and question him. I saw her beg him to stay. I saw him leave in the middle of the night saying good-bye to the dog and not to her. But yeah it is unusual for there to be a conversation before he takes off.
Even if they showed the conversation in the latest episode you choose to believe that they did not have a conversation. all you have said is what Amelia did.Was Sam simply standing there making faces as you say?If you do not want to hear Sam's side of the conversation then you will not hear it even if it is given .Sam did not want to wreck a man's life who had gone to fight for his country.He wanted them to have a chance not to be together again without any reason.That is really noble in my book.Quote:
He says it in SC - "you HAD Benny"', as if Benny and Dean bonded in purgatory to hurt him. Dean didn't chose purgatory. He chose to survive, to find cas, and return to Sam. Dean/Don both came back from "death" and Sam lost his vaseline coated fuzzy wuzzy life.
Sam also did not choose to leave Dean in purgatory.Dean was not dead to come back from death and coincidentally Don too Don I am doubtful about).Sam lost the woman who saved him without it being anyone's fault.There was a girl then there was not ,He was in love and then he was heartbroken.Quote:
It is Canon that Sam leaves his family because he wants normal. It is not a stretch to infer he thinks his family prevents him from having normal.
Yes,because Canon established that it was his family because of which he did not have a normal life.For eg.Ava had a pretty normal life.Quote:
Resentment of Dean explains sam' behavior at Dean's return (opposite from his reaction to cas) better than all the demon/angel/alpha deal theories that floated around.
Resentment has always been dean's forte..Sam, if does not get anything does not resent he tries to achieve it.Dean also thought of normal life.He did not get it so he still has not made peace with his father..even after death.Sam wanted to have a normal life .Dean and John were against it and did not trust enough to tell him what really happened to his mother only told parts, he did not resent them .He followed his dream.(one of the things I admire about Sam)Quote:
I never needed those theories or bought into them because the Sam I know would run away; that's what he does.
Frankly I don't know what theories you are talking about and i too did not need any theories because I knew Sam did not "run away" but simply Ran.(God knows this is the only thing I know about what happened immediately after Dean went to purgatory) and I know Sam has a big heart.Quote:
That's what he chooses to do. And no its not Dean's fault, orLucifer's fault or demon blood 's fault- it is Sam's choice. The show has done the character a real disservice by having it always be someone else's fault.
Yes,it was Sam's choice and the show has done disservice to Sam's character by by giving only Dean's choices expositionQuote:
From my perspective Carver is erasing that peculiar idea that a grown man is not responsible for his choices.
I can't comment here because I don't have a guess or perspective regarding what Carver wants.Quote:
I think a lot of Sam's choices stem from extreme hubris (he was Lucifer's one true vessel after all), coupled with insecurity.
Sam's choices stem from him being the Lucifer's true vessel that is not hubris that is Canon.Insecurity is a normal human feeling .Dean had it too when he wanted to say Yes to Michael but Sam was able to convince Dean simply by showing trust and nothing else and cure Dean of his hubris.Quote:
He deeply resents his older brother who was the good son, the good little soldier, the natural hunter, completely at ease in the supernatural world.
You lost me here.I always saw it as Dean resenting Sam for leaving him and having normal when he was hunting and not Sam resenting Dean for anything.Then again we have our own perspectives so that is that.Quote:
Dean chose to go hungry so Sam could eat as a child.
Sam chose not to tell Dean about how traumatic his experiences at Plucky's was because he did not want Dean to feel inadequately fulfilling his role of protector.Quote:
I am sure Sam will chose to run again and someone important to him will die
I saw it as Sam not being able to Deal that he was the only one standing and when he was able to deal thanks to Amelia (the rewatch of the episode has endeared Amelia atleast to me). Dean again resented Sam for having found happiness in his absence elsewhere.Quote:
Classic Greek tragedy features tragic heroes whose lives are misery because they are in excess in some regard. Success results from taking the middle way, nothing in excess.
Again no comments as I have not read any classic Greek tragedies.Quote:
So lets hope they can meet in the middle, both tempering the traits they possess in abundance.
I agree here but only disagree with which character has what in excess.Quote:
Too much guilt and taking too much responsibility leads Dean astray. Too much emotion, anger/fear/jealousy/vengeance leads Sam astray
Too much resentment/thoughtlessness/unnecessary guilt/low self esteem /holding on led dean astray.Anger/fear/ vengeance/single minded dedication/not letting go of Dean led Sam astray and at least till the show prooves me wrong Sam has atleast let go of vengeance and Dean after Dean's death.Quote:
Carver seems to be enunciating these tragic flaws under a high beam of scrutiny.
I agree but with the faults being what i have listed.Quote:
It hurts, but it's necessary to see the issues to move forward. Thank goodness they are fictional characters and can't feel pain!
Or rather that we can take solace that they are fictional charactersQuote:
Yikes! Bad news that 8:10 will be more heart wretching, and a messed IP castiel to boot. I about died this week.
8:10 no expectations.IP Castiel?(i did not understand what you mean here.)This week was a good episode. I had some complaints but then the messing up of the telecast schedule might be the reason so 8:10 may make some of those complaints redundant .
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 12:20
Quote:
Dean chose to go hungry so Sam could eat as a child.
Okay, I can't let this one go. The ONLY time we have seen Dean feed Sam when John was gone was in Something Wicked. In that scene, Dean made Spaghettios. Sam says he wants Lucky Charms. Dean is unhappy because he wants the Lucky Charms but gives into Sam. He then THROWS THE SPAGHETTIOS AWAY. Dean isn't starving. Both he and Sam are sick of Spaghettios and neither one wants to eat them, but if Dean were hungry, he HAS something to eat. AND if there wasn't enough food (which there was) then it wasn't 5 year old Sam's fault, it was John's. I know that episode has created an idea of poor self-sacrificin g Dean starving in a corner while Sam gets fat, but really what happens is that Dean is too young to say, okay we each get half of the Lucky Charms and then when we get hungry, we both eat the Spaghettios. But Dean is a kid and he's too young to think in those terms yet and John isn't around to show him that way of compromising.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 12:59
When I stated watching the show I really began to notice the food these guys ate (and that was before they started to make a joke of it with Dean). And when you see the flashbacks to their childhood they ate like that too.

I know they get a lot of really good workouts but honestly they both should be stunted and have all sorts of illnesses and medical complaints! So what do we have? 6'5 and 6'1 of complete yumminess and perfect teeth?

Yeah, no, nutrition doesn't work that way.

I don't think I have ever seen Dean eat anything that might possibly have vitamin C in it. (Um except possibly the Lucky Charms - wow yes they do - even back then Dean was saving Sam (or his teeth anyway)).

No child should be fed on his older brother's idea of what real food is :D And if you are going to get torn and ripped muscles and bruises every day you need LOTS of vitamin C for repair!

Just sayin.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-09 13:59
Loving it :D
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 14:51
And don't even get me started on the lack of post-911 safety checks on the plane in "Phantom Traveler'! :D

Demons, apocalypses, magic, werewolves, angels, ghosts, gore, shootings, multiple deaths of the same character(s), ghouls... all of that I can deal with.

How the guys got a pint of holy water and a thing that looks like a detonator in their hand luggage on a plane? That's an issue :D
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 14:55
Funny eilf!!!! And remember when young Dean's idea of vegetables was Funions (unsure of spelling)?
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 15:05
Oh I saw that ep last night - hilarious! Those boys need a mother ...
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-10 00:18
And just where was Bobby in all of this childhood growing up thing? I am new to the show so not sure if he IS their uncle or just a good friend. Why didn't he raise the boys? Not sure how the timeline works, but didn't he have the 'pie making' wife at that point? Oh Eilf I suspect 'pie' has vit C. The concept of 'pie' as a collective noun to me is halarious. We don't have this concept in my country :lol:
And while I am at it, if they travelled to different places week to week, just how did they manage to get to school. Surely the schools keep records :-* . And just how did Sam become such a knowledge nerd :-* eh eh eh
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-10 00:23
Sorry Eilf I meant mass noun not collective noun for the pie thing. :oops:

In my country, if I were Dean I would say "... and Sam don't forget THE pie" not "... and Sam don't forget pie"

It's just so darling
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 00:33
I think you will find it is 'Pie' or possibly even 'PIE'. Pie is very important to Dean!

But Americans have lots of types of pie! However if Dean likes apple pie then I will agree with you that there is likely more VC there than in Lucky Charms :D (His connective tissue is saved, and his teeth won't fall out!)

Lucky Charms are nasty by the way... but Spaghettios are no better. (apologies to any LC or S fans).

And eating salad IS like eating self-righteousn ess...
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 00:39
Bobby was a family friend.

His wife was dead while she was making pie - and I am pretty sure that is the only time you will ever see the likes of that sentence.

Sam is recognized as being an ace student (and also having a very good brain - the two are not the same, because Dean clearly has the smarts too, just not interested in book-learnin')

Sam was the researcher while Dean and Dad went on hunts as far back as being around 12 or so.

I feel you are missing an excellent opportunity to put your entire life on hold and watch 7 seasons of the show to catch up! You should get on that! :D
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-10 01:48
Oh my word, how many hours is that? I have a few seasons on DVD , but haven't watched them in order, so best I begin.

Just as an aside. Don't you think the boys have idealised and idolise their mother a little too much (given the circumstances, understandably so tho). They seemed to have polarised their memory of their parents. Mary seems to be all good and wholesome from what you see in Dean's heaven memory, while John seems to be neglectful and self'absorbed. Both Dean and Sam have issues where women are concerned it seems. Sam seems to need rescuing and Dean, well I don't know enough here but it ain't healthy (he seems to know this as I remember in one ep he acknowledged as much). Just an observation as I feel it is not just John's obsession that defined them, I feel that Mary's memory has had an enormous impact on how they perceive women too. I understand Sam's abandonment issues, but not how Dean's fits in.

Hopefully not stepping on toes here :-) love both boys equally.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 10:11
Sorry most of my responses were based on the assumption that you had watched the entire series, so I haven't been that helpful

Quote:
Don't you think the boys have idealised and idolise their mother a little too much
Dean certainly did, Sam not so much. One of the first fights Sam and Dean had in the Pilot was when Dean pulled Sam back into hunting and Sam kept saying he was going back to law school and be with Jess after a weekend looking for Dad. Dean asked how Sam could not want to find the thing that killed Mom and Sam answered that he'd never known Mom. All she was to him was the pictures John carried and some stories. Sam has pretty well been that way for most of the series. He has only seen Mary briefly in Home when she told him she was sorry and then destroyed herself to stop from remaining a ghost and to clear the house of a poltergeist. He saw her die in a vision and met her briefly when he went back in time in The Song Remains the Same. He knows now that the stories he was told of her were idealized, but that didn't do much because all Mary was to him was stories. Sam wasn't shocked or angry that Mary sold him to the demon before he was born. When he did go back in time Sam was more concerned with relating to John and forgiving him in advance for the life John had put Sam and Dean through. Sam was awed by Mary in that episode, but she wasn't his focus.

Dean definitely idealized Mary. His memories of her was as a four year old child. Mary seems to have been a good mother and Dean felt loved and taken care of by her. He hunted for years to find what killed her and he really did want that vengeance. When he killed Azazel, who was the one that killed Mary, he said "That's for our Mom".

One of the biggest differences between Sam and Dean is how they view family. For Dean family is the safety and love that he lost when he was four. For Sam it is the fear and insecurity of moving around after the hunt. It is why Sam can leave the world John raised them in and why Dean has a harder time. For Sam family is intertwined with pain, for Dean family is a way to get back to safety. At least that's my opinion.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 01:11
Bobby as surrogate father was a real retcon for the series. He originally wasn't supposed to exist as a character, but they couldn't get the actress who played Missouri Mosely back so they created Bobby. Bobby caught on and after John died the boys started turning to him more and more. Up until seasons six and seven, Bobby was a friend who helped Sam and Dean. In Something Wicked, John took Sam and Dean to Pastor Jim to be taken care of, not Bobby. Then in Salvation, they killed Pastor Jim.

TPTB finally decided that Bobby was a surrogate father taking care of Sam and Dean more than I thought he had. They concentrated on his role overtaking John's. I personally always thought John was actually pretty possessive and hands on than the show led us to believe in later seasons. Heck, most of Sam's issues with John were because John moved them from place to place keeping them with him, not because he parked them with Bobby. Early seasons Sam would have loved the stability of staying with Bobby. Interestingly, Dean, who originally was highly protective of John seemed the most closely bonded with Bobby later on, while Sam, the one who fought with John has always considered John his primary father. In Two and a Half Men, Dean wanted to name the baby Bobby, while (admittedly soulless) Sam came up with John. Since Bobby admitted liking Dean more, I suspect they were closer in many ways and as Dean became more disenchanted with John, he replaced him with Bobby. Sam, OTOH, was never enchanted with John, he always saw John's foibles and still accepted that John was his father.

I have a slew of problems with John. I think he was a problematic and abusive father to both boys, but I think making Bobby their surrogate father in later years was a disservice to John. He may have been a poor father, but he did NOT turn his kids over to someone else to raise, even though they might have been healthier if he had.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-10 02:23
Hey percy,
I am playing catchup as quickly as I can, so please be patient with this newby :D (thought Bobby was John's brother :oops: ). It seems odd that Bobby never had a role in their childhood given the hunter community so knowing the background of Missouri Mosely (no idea who she is yet but will rewind super quick) gives some insight, thanks.

What is your take on Dean's perception of his father? It looks as though in the early years (from Dean's perspective) that John was more protective over Sam, yet John seems to have more of a connection to Dean. I don't feel that either brother has a good perspective of what their father actually went through tho.

Also Percy can u tell me who TPTB are?

Many thanks for your input.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-10 02:24
oh got it the powers that be?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 10:30
Yes, the powers that be.

John's relationship with his sons was complicated. He kept the knowledge that he was a hunter from Sam until Sam figured it out himself, protecting Sam from that. But John talked to Dean about his hunts and what he was doing all the time. John also isolated himself from other hunters and relied on Dean for emotional support, support in hunting and to take over the responsibility of taking care of Sam. He was also clear that Dean was "the good son" who was good at hunting, was reliable and who always did what John wanted. In Bugs, Dean brags about how he was the good son and that is why he always got the extra cookie, but he did feel that deep down John loved Sam more.

Once Sam did discover the truth, John started training him to be in the hunt as well. However Sam never lived up to John's standards. Sam didn't want to hunt, wanted to do normal kid stuff not learn how to hunt, shoot and kill. So John was constantly telling Sam that he was a failure. John was unable or unwilling to appreciate Sam's talents because they often were not as useful in hunting. Sam was also more independent than Dean and challenged John, fighting for what he wanted Sam ended up feeling like a failure and like his father did not love or even like him very much. In season one, when the boys were looking for John, Sam admitted that he was afraid when they found him, John would not want to see him.

Some parents have a knack for making each of their children feel cherished and as if all of them are really the favorite. I have heard siblings occasionally talk about telling the other that "Mom told me never to tell you, but she liked me best" only to have the other child say "Mom told me the exact same thing". John had the knack of making both his boys feel like he loved the OTHER one better and that they both let him down. Oh, John.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-09 13:18
Regarding fuzzy wuzzy memories: I wasn't saying Sam shouldn't have the life he wants (although it's probably unrealistic given their outsider status, and that legally Sam Winchester doesn't exist anymore legally ). The point I was trying to make is he romanticized it, and its a bit silly to compare Amelia and normal to Benny and purgatory.
Regarding feeding Sam: it is Canon that a major part of Dean's psychology is that of a caretaker/ nurturer . He fulfilled that role even with mary before she died when he comforted her and he wad forced into an extreme expression of that role after the tragedy. In this episode, his mannerisms with Elizabeth at the end are caretaker. Look at his heaven memories: one where mary cares for him. One where he cares for mary. One where he has made Sam happy. Taking care of others makes him happy and through the family business he continues this role by protecting and saving.
Regarding responsibility: clearly Sam did not feel responsible for kevin or martin. Dean did, and this is a big issue for Dean and kinda my point. Any hero worth his salt would feel responsible. In my opinion.
and before anyone says its Dean's fault martin died because he sent a text; Dean did everything he could do to tell Sam martin was in no shape to hunt. He told them Martin would die if he went against Benny. As cold a move as that text was, he was trying to protect them. I don't think Benny would lose unless he wanted to die.

So the text was admittedly a cold move. I would say that post - purgatory Dean is decidedly Machiavellian in his approach to hunting. In other words, the ends justify the means. He figured one dick move is worth saving 3 lives. Likewise, killing mama tran was worth it if they axed Crowley . In LSOK, we saw 2 people die. So even discounting that any other innocents have been killed by Crowley since WUTM, the numbers work in Dean's favor. It's a hardass philosophy but one that has found favor by hardass types that want to win since the 15th century.

The question I ask myself is how far would Dean take this. The Dean of season 1-7, wouldn't risk a valued team member. The Dean of season 8 might. ( I say might because with mama tran who had just sold her soul, I think Dean figured her life was already up for grabs). Remember how Dean pleaded for Sam not to kill acdemon possessed john? Hmmm...

See I am seeing a Dean that just might kill his brother if he thought it would save lives, and that makes me think apocalypse 2.0. I also see a Sam that is easily swayed against his brother.... again apocalypse 2.0. Of course I have Bern worried about the re-apocalypse since the sorry game and later with crazy cas wanting to play twister and risk (ie. Let's play twister let's play risk. It's the end of the world as we know it...) .
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 13:44
Absolutey disagree that Dean would kill his brother, let alone to save lives. He would me more likely to kill the person who suggested it. They are MAD at each other. Dean has said some hurtful things. Sam and Dean have made some dubious moves. Dean loves his brother, period.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-09 23:39
Amen to that Leah
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-09 14:20
A thinking Dean wouldn't kill Sam per se but remember Dean was introduced this season as a " monster of the week" would be. I think it's within the realm of possibility that he would snap with the right triggers and see Sam as out not in ( you're either out or you're in is a lot like you're either with me or against me ). If he goes full in soldier survival mode he may start to see Sam as the enemy. I do not think Dean's ptsd is over whatever GE says. " I have to ask myself, when is decapitation not my thing?"- SC

Also Dean does not exhibit hubris. Whatever his flaws he doesn't have that one. Dean thinks he is worthless and a failure. His family including Bobby continually put him down.( Thank god for characters like cas and Benny who love/like and respect him for who he is). Anyhow Dean is the polar opposite of hubris. His poor self esteem is pretty much Canon. hhh
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-09 15:35
Quote:
A thinking Dean wouldn't kill Sam per se but remember Dean was introduced this season as a " monster of the week" would be. I think it's within the realm of possibility that he would snap with the right triggers and see Sam as out not in ( you're either out or you're in is a lot like you're either with me or against me ). If he goes full in soldier survival mode he may start to see Sam as the enemy. I do not think Dean's ptsd is over whatever GE says. " I have to ask myself, when is decapitation not my thing?"- SC

Also Dean does not exhibit hubris. Whatever his flaws he doesn't have that one. Dean thinks he is worthless and a failure. His family including Bobby continually put him down.( Thank god for characters like cas and Benny who love/like and respect him for who he is). Anyhow Dean is the polar opposite of hubris. His poor self esteem is pretty much Canon. hhh
Dean can be as hubris as the next person , we all can be it is human nature and Dean to be fair has displayed that. As for Dean killing Sam not quite sure where that has come from but anyway if Dean went all terminator on Sam because Dean thought Sam wasnt being ' in' with him or your either with me or you arent then I would consider Dean has nutty as people thought Martin was.

Sam can have a different focus point and a different thought on any given matter without it being seen has some sort of challenge to Dean. I understand the Dean that returned from Purgatory but I cant honestly see a scenario like this .
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-09 14:29
Dean dumped his brother off at Pizza places to go pick up girls. He's not an angel, he's a brother.

I also disagree about hubris. They both suffer from that. Dean is judgemental and believes his moral choices are better then everyone elses. For example it was hubris that had him at Amy's house killing her. She dropped a drug dealing pimp, but Martin deserved it? Amy is dead and her son is an orphan, because Dean made a call about whether she should live or die. All hunters suffer hubris in this manner.

Dean would never kill Sam. He doesn't really have proof that Benny didn't kill those two people and Desmond did. Zero evidence outside Benny's word backs that up. But he wouldn't kill Benny. He won't kill Sam.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-09 16:03
He drove Sam to someplace he thought would be fun to have some me time. It was more than john did for either of him. Killing amy wasn't hubris. It was hunting. She was killing humans. One of Dean's better traits is he doesn't judge; kinda saint-like of him.

It has gone unsaid but I think he does know Benny didn't kill those people. The spell he cast translated to we are one. He was one with Benny's soul. He knows the man as well as he knows himself. That easy way they have with each other earthside, the hug... they were one. There was a killer vamp. Dean knows benny is too smart to be sloppy or leave witnesses. We have seen who Benny is and his motivations. The moral of Benny isn't that Dean made a mistake- it's to show us what Dean wants kin a brother. Notice they are equals, maybe because they trust each other. Maybe because Benny rationally discusses things and doesn't run away. DEAN has had rational discussions with cas and Benny. He tried it with Sam and ended up with a head wound and handcuffs. Sam did not have his back.


This episode 's emotional strength was carried by Benny's story. The human pathos the character has displayed. He is a better man than Sam, even being a monster. So of course Sam hates him.
Sam says he wants out so why does he care so much that Dean hunts with Benny. Jealousy. His actions at Benny are motivated by negative emotions. He doesn't care about saving people. He wants to hurt Dean because possessed Dean hurt his feelings. Sorta revenge isn't it.

Sam never apologized to Dean; in fact he blamed him for Ruby. In season 1, Dean treated Sam like a partner and mentee. It was after John's dying words that he might have to kill him that Dean got really boast because he was trying to quash any signs of supernatural in Sam, terrified that it would overtake him. It did. To blame Dean for Sam's choices is childish. Dean's response wasn't perfect but he never blamed Sam for his behavior. He doesn't. If Dean emphasize choice, Sam chooses, in his possessed rant Carver is emphasizing that Sam choses. The show has never had Sam own up to his choices. Likewise, Dean has taken the guilt for everything. Sam and cas did. Hence cas' speech to DEAN about not feeling guilty for everything. I think Carver is emphasizing the warts and then BOOM and then self awareness leading to individual maturity and a better relationship. It is hard fir family to step out of learned roles but they need to. Probably Sam will need to earn Dean's trust again and Dean will have to get off his high horse and cut Dean some slack.
I hope Carver can do this because I really do not like Sam.

Martin looked extremely unstable to me. I think we were supposed to pick up on the fact he his. In my opinion, dean's a good judge of character except where it comes to Sam.

Sam has made derisive comments about Garth in 3 episodes... behind his back. Dean and Garth have developed an ounderstanding and friendship. Garth knows Dean is a supergrump, especially about new things ( was it described as terminal PMS). Garth tried to talk to Sam Ans was Blown off. Dean and Garth communicated. That is why Garth spoke to Dean. He knew Dean would listen. I am one of the few that likes him. Obviously DEAN didn't invite him to hunt Leviathan (like he wouldn't invite Martin to hunt period)...but he gas his place and his skills and he is a good role model for living a good life AND hunting.

What do I think will happen? Not sure. I think this season is a course correction for characters. I think every episode has drawn on the past in some way to emphasize their history. Is this just for character purposes or is mytharc to be revisited. I think the tablets may be a red Herring and Crowley and naomi both have agendas that will drive the mytharc.
Obviously the relationship will be repaired and hopefully it will feel as authentic as Dean and Benny and Dean and castiel. I don't find Sam and Amelia authentic, probably because Sam was running from who he is; ie. He hides who he is. I think Sam should be the new Bobby. He loves research and doesn't seem to enjoy the road or the active hunt.

What did the Levis say: Sam is self-righteous ; that's another way to describe hubris. And Dean has applications for sainthood. So Sam/hubris and Dean/saint is Canon. Since the Levis were commenting in what they knew from cloning the brothers ... they got that from the boys brains' themselves. Frankly it's how I see it.

Hubris is excessive pride, being full of one's self, thinking one is better than others. Lucifer fell from hubris, as did Sam. Ruby seduced him by telling him he was better, stronger and more powerful than Dean. Sorry.

I don't write it. I just watch it.

I felt weird about commenting because know my views are different than the majority. I have been flamed elsewhere. Also o didn't want to upset people that love Sam because I know it hurts some deeply if someone dislikes him. Especially I did notveantvto upset anyone this season, when there was already so much sadness over his story. I do post on a proDEan site (castiel'scat IFP), but really want to understand Sam and the peculiar fan divide, so I read other sites as time permits. I decided to comment because I think the point of this season is to examine each brother, flaws and all, and finally they see each other and accept each other... so I thought someone that gets DEAN was appropriate to the discussion.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 17:15
wunderpat-I think if you temper your comments about Sam a little you wouldn't have as much of a problem. A lot of people here get Dean and a lot of people here get Sam. Sometimes in expressing your views, you come across as if you dislike Sam intensely. That's never going to fly. For either character. People are welcoming here, generally, but if you rip on one character too much you are going to get responses to that. You are not the only one who appreciates Dean here. If you wish to reply to an individual comment all you need to do is hit the "reply" at the bottom of the comment and you will be slotted in underneath in order of the response. It took me awhile to figure that out :)
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-09 17:39
Quote:
He drove Sam to someplace he thought would be fun to have some me time. It was more than john did for either of him
This isn't what happened by Dean's own ommission. It was a dick move because he didn't want to be with Sam.

Quote:
Killing amy wasn't hubris
Deciding Amy had to die for killing a drug dealing pimp is in fact hubris. (Arrogantly believing your moral judgement is right is part of hubris, usually that leads to downfall. It's not one of my favorite words unless talking about plays)And more then a bit hypocritical, but like I said part of the job of hunting.

Quote:
It has gone unsaid but I think he does know Benny didn't kill those people. The spell he cast translated to we are one
You have absolutely no reason to believe this except that you want to. There is no evidence of this whatsoever. I'm still suspicious of Benny , because there's a reason we didn't see Desmond killing those people. It's meant to leave you questioning.

Quote:
Sam never apologized to Dean; in fact he blamed him for Ruby.
Actually, he begged for forgiveness with tears in his eyes and Dean's words were "I know you're sorry". Remember? And he never blamed Dean or Ruby. This was the conversation: Dean: "So its my fault". Sam: "No it's MINE."

Quote:
Also o didn't want to upset people that love Sam because I know it hurts some deeply if someone dislikes him.
I can only speak for myself, but you cannot hurt me by disliking a fictional character, even though I would describe myself as invested. I haven't seen much evidence of this here at this site, which is the only one I've ever been to. I'm just not sure we even watch the same show and I find that interesting.
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-09 17:57
PS: Levi Sam said eating salad was like eating self righteousness. He was talking about salad. LOL
E
# E 2012-12-09 19:53
Quote:
He drove Sam to someplace he thought would be fun to have some me time. It was more than john did for either of him.
Please tell me you are joking? This is a joke right? What nine year old child needs "me time?" this is a ridiculous comment. A young child, left alone in a children's pizza joint in a strange town, where he was abandoned by his older brother who went off to have some fun that did not include him and probably directly in conflict with the instructions that he got from John. It was a dick move, DEAN even said it. Places of this sort are veritable hunting grounds for child predators and there has been more than one inference on the show that someone at least tried to molest him while he was left on his own. The nature of Sam's fear suggests as much. This is the second post of yours where I have seen you blame a child Sam for things not his fault by manipulating the scenario to make Dean look better in a way that is not supported by the actual show. You really do hate Sam a lot don't you? So much that you even blame him as a child? Wow.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-09 16:20
Yes well I might be wrong with your comment here but when Levi Dean said that it wasnt exactly meant as a compliment and the writers making canon Dean is a saint or on his way to being one.

As for your other comments I wont get involved with, suffice to say I dont agree least of all Benny is the better man and thats why Sam hates him no sorry no where near the truth for me.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-12-09 20:19
Goodness I missed some... well no matter because nitpicking sentence by sentence is missing the forest from the trees.
Really ... plucky's?! Can't comment because I am laughing.

Dean needed the me time not Sam. Sam got his me time when he ran away. Dean was a teenager that wanted a little fun. He lost his childhood at four.. oh wait we don't watch the same show so you never saw Carver's take on Dean to do for Sam the things mary did for him.

You're interpreting what you see too. Amelia wasn't happy when he walked out of the darkened room.

It is my interpretation of Sam's weird behavior this season. He is acting off. I think he's pi..ed he lost normal and pi..ed Dean has Benny. Why Benny. Why not kate.

Benny... well time will tell whether he's good or not. I think believing he's not is sour grapes. I read here over and over... I hope Benny is bad so Dean looks worse than Sam.

I meant Sam will gun for him anyway and Benny will not fight because he thinks he doesn't belong here.

Dean and I think Martin was unstable and not competent. You and Sam think otherwise. I think TPTB agree with Dean and me. The actor couldn't have done a better job at playing unstable. Fyi- there is a compelling theory out there that Martin and Sam escaped a mental hospital together and Martin has been laying low. So I guess Dean and I are not alone in this assessment.

I could see Dean talking with machete in hand and Desmond attacking ... hey that actually happened!

Demons are twisted and corrupted souls. Monsters have hunger. They are different which is why monsters go to hell. The fact monsters are in purgatory suggests they are not a lost cause. Purgatory having connotations of purification or cleansing.
However Meg was burned in holy fire and has been an ally of sorts since so she might be redeemable. She says it's in her best interest but she has mellowed, and she has a different vibe than former frenemy Crowley. So maybe?

Why not have him track kate? This underscores that Sam is hunting Benny for personal reasons.

Dean sent the text. I think it was to save Sam and martin. We already know PP Benny is a better fighter than other vamps. You think what you would like.

He didn't know Sam would be hurt. Maybe they will reunite. Maybe Dean thought Sam would be safer out of the fray at this point.

Yes it was a hard thing to do.
I meant in Bb- Dean called San during a vampire hunt and Sam is yelling ... Dean uses the phone as a decoy. Funny and smart but cold. Goodness I missed some... well no matter because nitpicking sentence by sentence is missing the forest from the trees.
Really ... plucky's?! Can't comment because I am laughing.

Dean needed the me time not Sam. Sam got his me time when he ran away. Dean was a teenager that wanted a little fun. He lost his childhood at four.. oh wait we don't watch the same show so you never saw Carver's take on Dean to do for Sam the things mary did for him.

You're interpreting what you see too. Amelia wasn't happy when he walked out of the darkened room.

It is my interpretation of Sam's weird behavior this season. He is acting off. I think he's pi..ed he lost normal and pi..ed Dean has Benny. Why Benny. Why not kate.

Benny... well time will tell whether he's good or not. I think believing he's not is sour grapes. I read here over and over... I hope Benny is bad so Dean looks worse than Sam.

I meant Sam will gun for him anyway and Benny will not fight because he thinks he doesn't belong here.

Dean and I think Martin was unstable and not competent. You and Sam think otherwise. I think TPTB agree with Dean and me. The actor couldn't have done a better job at playing unstable. Fyi- there is a compelling theory out there that Martin and Sam escaped a mental hospital together and Martin has been laying low. So I guess Dean and I are not alone in this assessment.

I could see Dean talking with machete in hand and Desmond attacking ... hey that actually happened!

Demons are twisted and corrupted souls. Monsters have hunger. They are different which is why monsters go to hell. The fact monsters are in purgatory suggests they are not a lost cause. Purgatory having connotations of purification or cleansing.
However Meg was burned in holy fire and has been an ally of sorts since so she might be redeemable. She says it's in her best interest but she has mellowed, and she has a different vibe than former frenemy Crowley. So maybe?

Why not have him track kate? This underscores that Sam is hunting Benny for personal reasons.

Dean sent the text. I think it was to save Sam and martin. We already know PP Benny is a better fighter than other vamps. You think what you would like.

He didn't know Sam would be hurt. Maybe they will reunite. Maybe Dean thought Sam would be safer out of the fray at this point.

Yes it was a hard thing to do.
I meant in Bb- Dean called San during a vampire hunt and Sam is yelling ... Dean uses the phone as a decoy. Funny and smart but cold.
MelT
# MelT 2012-12-09 21:04
I think this is the only one mean for me as I didn't bring up Amelia or Martin.


"Dean needed the me time not Sam. Sam got his me time when he ran away. Dean was a teenager that wanted a little fun. He lost his childhood at four.. oh wait we don't watch the same show so you never saw Carver's take on Dean to do for Sam the things mary did for him. "

I don't know what Carver's take is outside of the Christmas episode he wrote, where Dean (very cutely) stole a Malibu barbie for Sam and Sam gave him the necklace. Technically we don't know that much about their childhood except: Dean made speghettios and cereal and Dean got stir crazy sometimes having to watch him. We simply don't. We don't know how much Dean even remembers Mary.

By different shows I was referring to the fact that you seem to not see Sam's apologies and taking responsibility for things when he has. Absolutely. And talked to Dean about it. And you take for granted things about Benny that I simply don't know and have not been conclusively established in cannon.
Alice
# Alice 2012-12-09 21:17
Hi wunderpat! I accept you are new to our site, plus this is a free form thread, so I'm going to allow all your comments so far. There will be no edits.

However, I have had a few of your comments reported as Sam vs. Dean. To us, that's building up one character (Dean) while harshly knocking down the other (Sam). So, as a friendly reminder in case you didn't know, here's our rules. It's okay to be pro Dean or pro Sam, just try avoiding excessive character bashing. Thanks!

www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules/14338-we-are-a-happy-site-but-there-are-rules.html
vivian
# vivian 2012-12-10 14:35
Hey, I thought wunderpat was you, Alice, in disguise in a (successful) attempt to reunite this fandom.

Still not sure you are not.... Hey, this site allows all kinds of conspiracy theories, doesn't it? :P
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-10 01:36
Quote:
well no matter because nitpicking sentence by sentence is missing the forest from the trees.
What we are doing is not nitpicking.Quote:
Really ... plucky's?!
Yes ...Plucky's.Quote:
Dean needed the me time not Sam. Sam got his me time when he ran away.
Yes.Dean wants me time ,Dean gets me time. the only way Sam gets me time is by running away.That is the tragedy.Quote:
oh wait we don't watch the same show so you never saw Carver's take on Dean to do for Sam the things mary did for him.
I get it ,you like to create or erase facts to make your points...But guess what we watch the same show.Dean tried to be like Mary...I have never seen that on the show.Dean resented Sam getting the last of lucky charms..I didn't see mary resenting Dean because she prepares sandwiches for him.
Also Dean never cut the crusts of Sam's sandwiches.Dean was a good brother ,no doubt, but attributing things which are not even there is bad.Quote:
You're interpreting what you see too.
You are interpreting things by taking only what Amelia said but what Sam said is not even mentioned .You omit facts, That is bad.You are cutting down trees to have the forest you want.Quote:
Amelia wasn't happy when he walked out of the darkened room.
Yes.But she did not have anything valid to say to Sam to make him stay.Quote:
It is my interpretation of Sam's weird behavior this season. He is acting off. I think he's pi..ed he lost normal and pi..ed Dean has Benny. Why Benny. Why not kate.
He knows what happened to Kate.He has seen it and he decided on that.He has not spoken to Benny yet.Quite reasonable to me .Quote:
I think believing he's not is sour grapes.
Its not a belief,Its an interpretation of what we have seen.Quote:
Dean and I think Martin was unstable and not competent. You and Sam think otherwise. I think TPTB agree with Dean and me. The actor couldn't have done a better job at playing unstable. Fyi- there is a compelling theory out there that Martin and Sam escaped a mental hospital together and Martin has been laying low. So I guess Dean and I are not alone in this assessment.
Suppositions are good but they are not facts and stop acting like they are.The actor who played Martin played it like a guy who had mental problems ,has come out from it and simply wants to proove he is competent..that is what I saw.Quote:
I could see Dean talking with machete in hand and Desmond attacking
But I did not see Desmond kill other two.Quote:
Purgatory having connotations of purification or cleansing.
May be in our world but in supernatural it has not been established .Here the thing that has been established is purgatory is a place where monsters go after getting killed on earth..Quote:
Why not have him track kate? This underscores that Sam is hunting Benny for personal reasons.
Because he believes in Kate and not Benny.Quote:
I meant in Bb- Dean called San during a vampire hunt and Sam is yelling ... Dean uses the phone as a decoy. Funny and smart but cold.
It was Smart but not funny or cold.Quote:
Maybe Dean thought Sam would be safer out of the fray at this point.
Or that Benny would be safe if Sam is out of the picture.
Benny might be good or bad.Only time will tell.Till then I will not be blind to the possibility of him being bad.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-12-11 02:43
Ardeospina, Great review. I still think that something is wrong with the FB's. I didn't think she was totally in his imagination anyway and I still don't think everything we saw in those FB were real. They just too iffy in too many ways.