Maybe I should be disappointed that "A Little Slice of Kevin" showed no aftermath of the war of the Winchesters from the week before. I was expecting some tension, possibly a little hostility, definitely an undercurrent of anger. Maybe I should be disappointed that we didn't get that. But, I simply can't seem to give a damn, because what we got was a blessed relief. I love the angst, I really do, I can't help it, I love that these two boys run deep, but I love the brothers getting along, caring for each other, sharing emotions, supporting each other, sooooo much more. It was a tiny bit jarring, for about 32 seconds, until I went,."Ahhhhhhh, I remember this and it feels goooood!" I know we're going to see the anger again, I know those feelings of doubt and mistrust, the issues of the season, are still there, just under the surface, nicely fermenting, I know the angst will be back, but until then, in this quiet moment,.I'm going to just bask for a little bit, in the warmth of the Winchester's glorious bro-ness and dare to dream that this episode showed progress in their healing and could be that step in the right direction we've all been hoping for.


"A Little Slice of Kevin" had a very familiar vibe and I mean that in the best possible way. The brothers appear to be on the same page for once (even if we know it won't last "“ *cough* Benny *cough*), we have a big Heaven vs. Hell "“ angels vs. demon thing brewing, we had classic characters such as Crowley and Castiel back in play, we had angel wings, the demon knife and witches and we opened with the Impala purring her way down a back road, classic rock blaring as Dean shoved junk food in his mouth. Happiness,the whole lot of it.
 
There was plenty happening in this episode and it charged along at a break neck pace. We were brought back to the big mythology arc of the season, the God rock thing. The Word of God tablets and that concept was expanded upon. We were introduced to a new notion of how the prophets come to be,which is very Buffyesque, in that there can be only one. One dies and a "potential" prophet is activated. Though, I always thought the Leviathan digging up that first God rock activated Kev? Maybe he just wasn't needed before then? I put my fingers in my ears and went "la-la-la" when Chuck was mentioned as presumed dead (la-la-la); I can't and won't accept that! Nope. Because, you know, maybe he was more than just a prophet? And hey, there were times when there were two slayers, so maybe there can be an spare prophet now and then! (Going to my happy place where Chuck's ok).

But of course, the big story was Castiel. He's back and he's not crazy. Thank goodness. He's much closer to the Castiel of seasons 4 and 5, when he'd rebelled and started to find his own path, but was still sane and angelic. My favourite Cass. I'm glad that Purgatory healed his mind, even if it hasn't totally healed his soul,which technically he doesn't have, but you know what I mean.
 
For now, Cass bought with him mostly questions and not many answers, but he does have answers and I'm hoping that his reintroduction into the Winchester's world will give him a chance to fill in some of the gaps for both brothers. I mean, he knows Benny. Sam and him should definitely have a little offline on that particular subject! I was as suspicious as Dean of his story about not remembering anything until we saw that the angels were up to no good again. I'm glad he's not wilfully hiding stuff, even if he's going to be unwittingly hiding stuff. Boy, poor little guy. I'd like everyone to be able to mend and move forward this season, from all their past transgressions! Time to deal and move on.
 
I totally dig this idea that God had someone jot down his thoughts as a worst-case scenario handbook for the human race. It opens up a whole range of possible story arcs. That Transformer Archangel Metatron was quite the note taker. There are a few God rocks out there dealing with different Heavenly issues. The Leviathan rock, the demon rock,and what else? An angel rock? Please let there be an angel rock! With specific instructions on how to kick their meddlesome butts!

Gah. Angels! Until "Supernatural" I thought angels were nice! I have friends who go on about angels and look at me weird when I try to explain that you can't trust them! Then I remind myself, once again, that this is just show (shut your mouth)! Anyhoo, the angels are interested in the Winchesters and they're using Castiel to spy on the brothers and report back, without Cass' knowledge. Manipulative S.O.B.s!
 
So what do they want? Well, I'm thinking they probably don't want the gates of Hell closed anymore than the denizens of Hell would. Because if the place is on lockdown, where do all the evil souls go? Do they just linger around on earth like nasty bad smells? Or do they head skyward? Also, I think the angels like the idea of Hell and the balance between good and evil. Because if those gates are forever locked and no one gets punished for their sins, then what happens to humanity? Would we all run amok without the threat of fire and damnation hanging over our heads? So, I think we might find out that neither party wants Hell's gates closed for eternity.
 
My other thought was, as I mentioned, there might be an angel rock out there, as part of the compendium of tablets that has been created. If there is, would it have information that would help the Winchesters pop those pesky winged annoyances back behind the pearly gates for all time? I'm sure Sam and Dean would be quite keen on that idea. I'm kind of keen on the idea! I'm sure the angels would not be keen on that idea at all! Or maybe it contains information that could give Crowley control over Heaven? That would be problematic for them!
 
I've also been toying with the notion that the angels now running the big show, are of the same thinking as the late Archangel Raphael, in that maybe they want to kick-start the Apocalypse Part Deux, go back to the original plan. Maybe this is why they need to keep an eye on the Winchesters. Maybe they're hoping to use their bodies (aren't we all,,..) as the vessels of the end game reboot. Maybe that's where all this is going. Can anyone say season 10? "Whatever you do, you will always end up... here. No matter what choices you make, whatever details you alter, we will always end up... here." Stop that Amy! I really hate that thought. I'm going to angel wipe my own mind!
 
Obviously whatever the situation, the angels are not going to want the King of Hell to get his grubby little mitts on the Word of God. So it could just be, that they let the Winchesters fight the fight and then they swoop in and grab the prize. Sounds like angel behaviour,.
 
Of course there's nothing at all to suggest any of this yet, but,I just don't trust those conniving winged bastards! I do quite enjoy them though and Naomi seemed kind of cool, if treacherous and a tad buttoned down. It'll be very interesting to see how she and the angel scheme plays out.

Not only are the angels spying on the Winchesters, they're playing with reality,.which made me go, hang on, what does that mean for the big picture? Carver has said from the get-go that season 8 is all about perception. How one person sees an event can be different from how another person sees the same event. How we the viewer are currently seeing things, may not be how they end up being revealed. The angels are popping Cass in and out without his knowledge, without the brother's knowledge. He's compelled to be honest while in Naomi's office of honesty and then he doesn't remember being there when he's zapped back to earth and no one misses him. So the angels are playing with time, space and truth.
 
The angels dragged Cass from Purgatory and expunged his memories. By the way,Illinois? I wonder how close to Pontiac they were? Is there an angel portal there or something, where they can travel to the other realms? Seems odd that Cass and Dean would both be rescued by angels in Illinois. Jimmy Novak was also from Pontiac, Illinois. Curiouser and curiouser.

So is anything else being affected by the angels and their mind games. Sam for example? Are we're going to find out that Sam's been manipulated by the angels into not looking for Dean, choosing a different life or meeting Amelia. Did they throw the dog in front of his car (!), or could they have messed with Sam's mind and make him assume Dean was dead? Or, and I think this is more likely, did they, "˜push' him to go to the cabin that night to find Dean? Maybe it was one of the angels lurking in the shadows watching Sam as he left? And if that was the case, it brings us back to, why do the angels need Sam and Dean together? I'm guessing they never expected Dean to get out. Maybe Benny was a fly in their ointment. But with Dean back topside, did they then want Sam to find him for some reason? Or is the fact that they are now together back on the job, a worry to the angels.
 
I don't want to find out that Sam's entire year was a manipulation. Personally I like that he made those choices for himself, as controversial as they are, I like that Sam made decisions for his own future, whether we all agree with them or not.

Sam had what I thought was the most telling line of the entire episode, when he said to Dean ""Survivor's guilt? If you let it, this is gonna keep messing with you, you gotta walk past it." Was this Sam letting Dean know what he'd been through? Certainly Sam has gone through survivor's guilt more than once when it comes to his brother and in the past, he's not done so well. But this time around, did Sam find a way to "walk past it" and become a healthier person for it? Once again, here we have a case of perception. Dean sees it as abandonment; Sam sees it as letting go and moving on.

We also saw how perception was affecting Dean's memories of Cass and Purgatory. Dean remembers Cass slipping from his grasp and yet Cass told Dean he purposely let go. Dean seemed to know that Cass didn't try as hard as he could, but he also saw it as his own failure for not trying harder on behalf of his friend. He said no one would get left behind and Cass was left behind. He wanted to get Cass out and he couldn't. I don't believe, as has been suggested around the traps, that Dean has purposely remembered this incident wrong, so that he could continue to beat himself up for something because he thrives on guilt. I think that viewpoint trivialises this man and the depth of his caring and of his wounds. He said, they had to scratch and fight and bleed to get to that portal. He remembers the heat, the stink, the pain, the fear. That it almost finished him. Is it not more fair to say that in the stress and confusion of the situation, Dean simply didn't realise what was happening, that he didn't realise Cass let go, didn't understand exactly what was going on, rather than Dean loves to self flagellate, so he's chose to remember wrong out of his need for self loathing? Perception.
 
Personally I'm relieved that Dean didn't make a conscious choice to leave Cass behind, or that Benny did something underhanded. I've been dreading finding out badness went down. Now that's one thing I, at least, can move on from.

I'll admit, I teared up when Cass said, "You can't save everyone my friend. Though you try." Awww Dean,. I hope he was listening,though it'll never stop him trying. He is who he is.

Oh I nearly forgot the Trans! Ha. I keep forgetting about them! I don't mind Kevin,I'm sorry he lost a little slice of himself. How was that! Man, brutal. I loved how after Cass and Crowley's showdown, he grabbed that tablet and wouldn't let go. It reminded me of when we first met him and Sam was trying to get the tablet out of his hands and he actuallycouldn't let go! He needs to get away from his mum though, because she's making dumbass decisions that are endangering their lives, plus, she's as annoying as all hell! She'd drive me batty if she were my mum. I didn't find her fun this time around, just kind of grating.Imagine her and Garth together? That'd be interesting! I was impressed she got that enormous demon into the trunk of her car though! Nice move! I mean, she's tiny. Did you see the size of Sam up against her when they met on the side of the road? I loved that too,Sam was so mad. I loved how he just snatched that book wearing his best chastising face.

Crowley reminded me of Lucifer in this episode in that, remember how Lucifer was all quietly evil and kind of cool until he got under pressure and then he turned all bloody rampage and murderous in "Hammer of the Gods"? That's what I thought about Crowley. We've seen him torture monsters and other demons but this season he's snapped Kevin Tran's girlfriend's neck and now he's done something fatal to some potential prophet's inside, while exploding another and cutting off Kevin's pinky! I think he's feeling a little under pressure and he's showing his true colours. He's not the smooth, Savile Row villain anymore. Oh and poor Alfie! What happened to Alfie?
 
So, "A Little Slice of Kevin" made it 7 for 7 for me. I think the episodes have been getting stronger as the season has gone on. The story is getting more interesting and layered, as little bits of the mystery are pealed away and new questions are raised. I like it! Crowley is in on the Word of God thing and I assume Sam and Dean know Crowley knows. The stakes feel high. Way higher than they have for ages. Way higher than the Leviathan. Probably because this battle feels a lot more personal. Heaven and Hell is something the boys are very familiar with.

This episode also left me feeling a bit more optimistic about our favourite ghost hunting bros. I'm hoping that what we saw with the brothers in this episode was indeed a small step towards the rebuilding of their relationship. A return to the trust and the closeness. I've never doubted the love. Dean didn't dig at Sam once for his year out. Maybe he heard Sam last week. Maybe he heard Garth. Sam was empathetic and supportive; he seemed present and connected to Dean. Maybe Sam heard Dean's pain last week. Maybe he saw the hurt in his brother. Like I said,the issues are still there, they will raise their ugly heads again,but even if they can have days like this,that's a start right?

And now for a dip in the shallow end of the pool....


Sam. V-neck t-shirt. Add to that bare feet and sweatpants. Didn't you just want to snuggle with him all curled up in that bed,and I'm a Dean girl (but I'm Sam curious)! And Dean,FRECKLES! Did anyone else notice that the grade on this episode was less saturated? Also, the boys didn't look quite as made-up or overly tanned and,you could see Dean's freckles clear as day. We should always be able to see Dean's freckles. If I ran this show, I'd make that a rule. Plus...arms. Goodness. I'm finding it harder and harder to get through the brother's scenes without pausing,rewinding,pausing,rewinding! They are so gosh darn PRETTY!
 
And on that highly intelligent and well thought out point,.
 
What did you think of the episode? What are your theories around what the angels are up to? Do you think their mischief is affecting anything else in the story? Let me know your thoughts.

Oh and cool things....the Benny soul transfer, the exorcism into the phone, the demon bomb, the demon bomb shadows, the Leviathan bombs (every time...man so cool).
 
Oh no! I just remembered, the next episode is two weeks away, D'oh! I think I might do a little marathon of episodes 1 - 7!

Until next time,I'm just going to leave this here...

Thanks for reading!
-sweetondean


Comments  

Alison Kirk
# Alison Kirk 2012-11-17 06:21
I remember Carver saying everything isn't always what it seems. And as much I wish it too, I don't think Sam's normal life was out of choice, because everything just seems so fishy with him. If it is out of choice then for the first time in years, Sam who fought against destiny beside his brother, will finally have chosen something for himself, but something lead Sam to believing his brother was dead. Sam wouldn't just jump to conclusions like that. Something happened after Sam left that factory. I don't know if anyone has noticed but Jared is doing a brilliant job of portraying Sam's depression, sadness, and weariness this season. Once again, I have a feeling Sam's choice of this normal life was manipulated. I think Naomi, and the other group of special angels had something to do with it. But going to controversial way of having Sam choosing to do something for himself, to keep himself alive, is something I want. Because when Sam sets his mind on something he never stops, when Dean died for the 'final' time in Mystery Spot Sam basically became a robot. But I have to say, Sam is hiding something from Dean.

And can we all say we want Amelia and Dean to meet? Or is the theory that Amelia Richardson is real but the relationship Sam had with her isn't real? Was it just a horrible meltdown, left over affects of Sam's wall breaking down, or did the angels have something to do with it?

Or is the theory that Sam may have tried to commit suicide, by maybe running off a bridge in the Impala, and then hit that dog, and Sam being him saved the dog?

So many twists and turns.
Rebecca RGNYC
# Rebecca RGNYC 2012-11-17 07:21
I just love this review--so spot on. How about Cas spreading his wings at Crowley--that was cool. I so loved Sam and Dean's interaction and agree with your comments on that. I wonder about the dog Sam hit. God spelled backwards and all. That dog saved Sam's life and connected him to Amelia. Hmm angel manipulation? Interesting. If so, there's gonna be hell to pay when Dean, Cas, and Sam figure out that the angel bosses are messing with them all. Thank you for your review!
Jean
# Jean 2012-11-17 07:59
I'm not a very big fan of the Apocalypse 2.0 theory...To me it feels like a rehashing of an old plot and I don't see how they could make it fresh and new if Sam and Dean were vessels again, angels want them to say yes, bla bla bla...But the thought of "no matter what you do you're always going to end up here" is very chilling, and if the writers do have a good way of doing this plot I'm all for it.

With the introduction of Naomi, I'm leaning towards the theory that Sam was manipulated, though that's just plain tragic...I mean, come on, give the guy a break! But then again, angsty Winchesters are one of the reasons that we keep coming back for more, no? :lol:

By the way, sweetondean, do you still remember my fig leaves theory? The whole Sam-and-Dean's- souls-will-be-d ragged-to-hell- so-they-go-to-P urgatory part seems really implausible to me now...But my fingers are still crossed for the fig leaves part! ^^I find myself becoming a big fan of your articles, so keep them coming!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:43
Quote:
By the way, sweetondean, do you still remember my fig leaves theory?
Indeed I do! ;-)
Smithie Parrish
# Smithie Parrish 2012-11-17 08:41
Once again, I love your perceptions on the show. I look forward to your reviews. I agree. A Little Slice of Kevin is one of the best, and not just this season.

I loved the line about survivor's guilt. You give Sam credit for moving on rather than abandoning and I thank you. The survivor's guilt shines a light on that. Hopefully the fans that were so quick to condemn Sam will be able to see it.

Poor Dean. He holds himself so responsible for everything and everyone. I think that is the root of his anger at both Sam and Cas. Perhaps Cas can help him understand this. It is so much a part of who Dean is. Hard to tell sometimes--is it a character strength or a flaw? And, yes. Yeah! Cas is a powerful angel again and not a nut.

I really liked Kevin in We Need to Talk About Kevin. He was strong. He'd survived a year on his own, tricked Crowley and even managed to get away from Crowley a second time. But in this episode he disappointed. He was totally dominated by his mother. I think her cuteness has run its course and I'd rather see Kevin come out as a strong character again.

AND as a Sam girl...thank the writers. I don't need to see skin. A t-shirt across those broad shoulders, a little bed-head and bare feet. Yes!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-17 10:04
I did love the episode but I do prefer if Sam was being messed with in someway. If they hadn't set it up that he just didn't look for him at all, I might have a different opinion. If he just looked, obsessed and eventually moved on, that would probably be okay. But I as it is, I definitely prefer that angels were messing with him.

I'm on the fence about Apocalypse 2.0, because it might seem like a rehash and I definitely don't want them to end the show with either in that cage or hell. BUT I love the idea that the angels are being all sneaky this time. I think that might even be props to the Winchester's that they are aware that can't come straight at them, regardless of how powerful angels are. Because the boys continue to hand their asses to them or just simply refuse to cooperate.

But manipulation did work on both boys last time, until they figured out what was going on. So I wouldn't mind if the angel's end game was the apocalypse, but I want this time for it to have the opposite effect. They try to pull them apart, but ultimately they end up closer than ever. Because I love the angst too, but just like you I love when they are closer even more.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-11-17 10:14
Oh, sweetondean, such lovely reviews. I really liked this episode, too, and was pleasantly surprised given the writers.

I didn't think about there being an angel rock, but there has to be, right? And the angels don't want the Winchesters getting their hands on that one, because they always do exceed expectations. Maybe the angels have learned that now.

This could have been a very powerful episode, if the unfunny humor of the Trans had not been so intrusive. Can we all agree that Mrs. Tran can die at any time? I'm finding her very annoying, and I really don't see the need for her character. Orsic can act, but she has dragged his character down right along with her. Unfortunately, with Sam saying that the brothers will call when they need the Trans again, I foresee more Mrs. Tran and Garth, not only in this season, but in coming seasons.

There was so much to like about this episode: upping the mytharc, introducing more into the plot, Dean and Cas "my friend," awesome special effects (I love the way the Leviathian are shown in Purgatory), no Amelia flashbacks, classic rock, Baby and Dean and junk food, and some possible lingering Dean "spidey senses" that all is not right with Cas' return.

I believe Amelia is 100% real, and I don't know where the 'perception' thing is going, but there is definitely more to come with the brothers. Yet, the difference between the big brother confrontation and how the brothers were now was quite jarring. I kept waiting for Sam to show some inclination that he was getting that Dean is not alright. Except, of course, they didn't go anywhere with Dean not being okay once Cas showed himself. I'll wait, though, because what is to come will be interesting. I'm waiting to see if Dean's PTSD is over and what is going on with Sam.

Strong episode. I put it behind 8.05 and 8.01 as third best so far in the season...and that's because of the Trans and because I'm not finding Crowley as good of a big bad as the YED or Zach; but, my, oh my, I am intrigued with Naomi, why she is interested in the Winchesters, and how the brothers are going to feel about Cas once they find out he is being unknowingly manipulated by more dick angels.

P.S.: Please, please, writers, don't make Cas the super-charged fix-all again this season. Walk that line very carefully.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:21
Quote:
P.S.: Please, please, writers, don't make Cas the super-charged fix-all again this season. Walk that line very carefully.
I second that Ginger!
st50
# st50 2012-11-19 17:22
Quote:
Quote:
P.S.: Please, please, writers, don't make Cas the super-charged fix-all again this season. Walk that line very carefully.
I second that Ginger!
Third and carried!
m1tchells
# m1tchells 2012-11-17 10:29
Oh Sweetondean! Your reviews always seem to take what is in my head and put it in writing! Thanks for that!!

First and foremost - YES to Sam and the v-neck tshirts. Just yes! (Sidenote...SOO O thankful for my DVR! Really, really thankful!)

I felt the same way when Sam spoke of survivor's guilt and walking through it. He was definitely sharing something about himself right there. And I liked that he didn't actually make it about himself, ya know? He gave the advice to Dean for Dean. Love that!!!

I really hope that there was no manipulation on Sam's year. I could see the angels needing to keep him "in the game" so to speak and in order to keep him from totally self destructing maybe "helping" him hit the dog to start him on another path. But I hope it would be no more than something like that. I love where Sam is this year. I love his growth and maturity.

Who is the "they" who gave Benny the portal information? I'm thinking angels. Maybe it was their way to get Dean "back in the game". And the shadowy figure outside of Sam's house...I'm going with Naomi like others have suggested.

There are just no words to express all that is Dean. I mean...WOW! The pain, the confusion, the fear, the everything! just reaches out and grabs hold of you. I can feel it as though it were mine. Loved having Cas back and him showing Dean "the truth". "You can't save everyone, my friend. Though you try". Perfection.

Loved the exchange between Dean, Cas and Benny in the woods. "Broken record Cas" and "Stow it Cas". Cas had definitely been trying to prepare Dean obviously to the annoyance of both guys.

I can't wait to see more of Benny and I wouldn't mind him sticking around. I am really looking forward to Sam and Cas talking. Can't wait for that!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:19
Quote:

Who is the "they" who gave Benny the portal information? I'm thinking angels. Maybe it was their way to get Dean "back in the game".
Yes I was wondering that myself....
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2012-11-17 18:03
Exactly. Remember Alpha vamp saying, 'see you next season.'
m1tchells
# m1tchells 2012-11-18 00:50
huh, never thought about that....
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2012-11-17 11:00
Sweetondean you did it again. I love reading your perceptions of the each episode. I agree with you on all of this but the Apocalypse 2.0 theory is not a way I would like to see this go. I loved where the boys are in this episode. I too thought there might be some carryover from last week but glad that they seemed to have moved past that, or at least tabled it for now. I really love this bro-vibe with all the caring and sharing scenes. Dean does "carry alot of crap that he doesn't need to" (jo's comment in S7) and between Sam and Cass I think they helped him see that somewhat. He is Dean though, and that is part of his personna so got to love him!

The whole God, Heaven, prophets scenario is very intriguing and mysterious at this time. One does wonder, was Chuck God, thus reason Kevin became the next prophet? And Naomi, I don't trust her one bit and am very leary of the direction she is taking Cass. This will not end well I'm sure (for her). As for Mrs. Tran, yes I agree she has outstayed her welcome. She was very helpful in the first episode she was in but she has worn on me and I'm ready for her to be gone. She is nothing short of annoying and constant obstacle now for Kevin and the boys.

I still feel that Sam thought Dean was dead, since there was no other explanation available to him and like in the past, he wondered around aimlessly until hitting the dog that began his next chapter in life with Amelia. We saw how broken he was after the Mystery Spot and again when Dean went to Hell so again he was without his brother with no direction.

Overall, I felt this was the strongest episode of S8 but I'm sure I will be able to say the same thing later on down the road as we get further and further into the stories.
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-17 11:07
OH, you've done it again. I absolutely love reading your reviews, I'm smiling like a fool and ogling at that screenshot of our favorite boys, the one with, you know, distracting T-shirts and such. I was so sick while watching this but perked up the moment Sam got out of that bed and my shallow Sam!Girl kicked in full force :D

I thought about the angel rock, and am wrecking my head wondering if there are any other rocks. A human rock? But the game-changer would be if there IS an angel rock. Ha, every time I see archangel Raphael mentioned somewhere I think of the "dude wearing a lady" comment; seriously this show has skewed my perceptions of angels! But still, an angel rock would be very curious indeed...

Love that Cass is back and himself! Love the new demon bomb thing, that was so cool. Also love how the boys connected- I was a little jarred by it too, but on the second re watch, thought maybe Sam's anger had been so great because he had still been reeling from all that was said and done. Maybe he's cooled since then. You're right- the survivor's guilt line was great.

And I'm also super excited that memories seem to be fallible things- look at how Dean tweaked his to match his guilt! This could mean a lot of things.

I don't want Sam's entire year to be manipulated either, and I do believe Amelia is real, but maybe there is something creative in the wings...*hoping*

I'm really waiting for a Sam-Cas conversation too!
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-17 11:21
I loved the fact that boys didn't exhibit tension or anger. For me that really showed that no matter how bad things are they still love each other and are so comfortable with one another that even when there is that kind of blow up, the automatically fall back into their old ways. Sam immediately getting up when he sensed that there was something wrong and showing his concern, and Dean actually talking to Sam, sharing with him, just left me all gooey inside. Like you said, I know there will be more tension and angst, but it was good to see them connecting.

I really hope we aren't going down the old apocalypse road again. Just 'meh.' Kripke did, and Carver ain't gonna do it better, but since he seems to be borrowing most of his other ideas from the early season, can we say S1 Sam redux?, then yeah, he's probably going beat that dead horse.

I'm originally from Illinois (please folks, don't pronounce the 's'), and I've been to Pontiac on a number of occasions, and just LOL.

I know that Dean and Cas had to have a one-on-one, but I hate that Sam's interaction with Cas ended up being nothing much more than "unbelievable!" I hope we get some real Sam and Cas interaction soon. After all, Sam's main concern with Dean is Benny, and Cas knows Benny pretty well. I want to hear what he would tell Sam about him. I also want some real Cas and Sam talk about what happened in the past. We know that Sam forgives Cas, but I'd still like to hear a real apology from Castiel.

I wish I were liking this season as much as you are beginning to. For me there is just way too many stories going on -- two separate flashback storylines, then there's Benny's story, Castiel's story, Sam and Dean, Dean and Benny. They are trying to do too much. Maybe, now that everything has been introduced, it will start to gel better for me, but there's just been too much jumping around. Maybe Kripke was just better at it, but I felt like the Winchester's were always the focus in the first five seasons -- even with Gamble -- and I'm not feeling that this season.
Belinda Neal
# Belinda Neal 2012-11-17 11:27
I love this theory as I said on my own blog, that I had a hunch this new species of angel had caused trouble for Sam and manipulated him in some way and implanted memories and that Amelia was fake and the dog was not.

Jared is fantastic Alison this season, how his facial expressions have come on and how he has tricked us into thinking he is normal when he obviously is not. What is bothering me is why has Dean not surfaced that something again is very wrong with Sam. When he came back soulless he almost got he was different. But this time he hasn't clocked on that Sam is odd. Even when Sam tries to remember the flashback, his acting is superb as he doesn't seem to be remembering them as they were.

I wonder if this is where Jeremy is heading with the apocalypse and the boys will actually fight that scene for real this time. I think both Jared and Jensen want themselves to go out on a high, and this battle would finish them off for ever, but would one survive. Then what?

I am really excited this season and looking forward to finding out more about Amelia and what will happen to Benny, love this write up.
hedi
# hedi 2012-11-17 11:32
Your reviews always make my day ! thanks !
I really liked the episode too. it was about the arc of the season and things are getting more excited !
you said it all , but I want to say that, when i was watching it for the third time , i felt like this season is much more about the relationships, about trust..about friendships , about reality and life rather than some ghost hunting thing you know? i really like that about this season so far!
then again , thanks for you amazing review !
hedi
# hedi 2012-11-17 11:34
Your reviews always make my day ! thanks !
I really liked the episode too. it was about the arc of the season and things are getting more excited !
you said it all , but I want to say that, when i was watching it for the third time , i felt like this season is much more about the relationships, about trust..about friendships , about reality and life rather than some ghost hunting thing you know? i really like that about this season so far!
then again , thanks for you amazing review !
shamangrrl
# shamangrrl 2012-11-17 11:43
As I've said in other reviews, as long as I take this as a stand-alone, I can honestly say I enjoyed it.

I don't like the angst on this show, because it's become so contrived and the so-called "resolution" is always unearned (and frankly, totally in the mind of the writers). That being said, I don't mind conflict between the brothers, or the brothers being seperated. But what we've been getting in those departments has been totally non-organic and nonsensical, for many seasons. So I wish they'd just drop it.

I am very happy Castiel is back, and I found the extremely brief scene with Naomi to be intriguing. I don't know how they got Castiel out, but I find myself doubtful that she launched a campaign against Purgatory to pull him out. But only time will tell, and I'm willing to give Carver that time. Also, I know it's all spec, but why does everyone assume that once the Gates of Hell are closed, souls won't be able to get into Hell? That makes no sense. Personally, I think that the Angels are upset because, once Hell is closed down, there will be no hope for the Apocalypse. Ever. They will forever be tied to watching over God's favorite children, which seems to universally send all Angels into a tizzy. The only Angel who likes humanity, is Castiel. If the Gates are closed permanently, nothing will be able to crawl out, there's no hope of Lucifer and Michael resuming their lame-ass throwdown, No End-Of-Days. No end of service for the Angels. I can't see them standing around and letting that happen. As it stands, they can't get Sam and Dean to play their part, but they can still manipulate bloodlines for the next two saps to become pawns in their game. But if the Gates close, they're out of luck.

I'm all for the Trans and Crowley taking a large break from the series. I've never felt menace or Big Bad vibes from Crowley, and all the exploding people in the world won't change that. And the "humor" with the Trans just doesn't seem to fit tonally with any of the episodes they've been in. They keep pulling me out of the narrative, and that's mostly because of Mrs Tran. I found the torture scene with Kevin to be slightly more effective, but.. Yeah. They can go into WitSec now.

The only thing I will say about Sam, is that I don't want him being manipulated. What does that say about a character, when every moment becomes excused, because every moment has been manipulated? No. No Angel manipulation. It's been done over and over (and over x 30yrs), and it's time to move on.

I truly hope that the Purgatory flashbacks aren't done. I've loved them. And I adored every moment between Dean and Castiel in this episode. More, please.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:10
Quote:
I truly hope that the Purgatory flashbacks aren't done. I've loved them. And I adored every moment between Dean and Castiel in this episode. More, please.
Me too. I've been digging the Purgatory flashbacks. I hope we have more. I hope now that all three players are topside, we're not done with them.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-17 12:57
Great moments in the episode:

Cas: I get the feeling something is going on

Dean's expression: Ya think???
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:06
Ha! Yes! I've played that moment back several times.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-17 13:09
Did you notice that Sam and Cas keep (apparently) giving each other significant glances? I have seen two so far. One at the table and one when Dean calls Cas out of the car (so they can have a 'private' conversation 2 inches away from an open window) but both at points where Dean is asking questions about Purgatory.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:15
I did notice a couple of looks. I read the first one at the table as Sam having sympathy for Cass though. But certainly there could be an element of intrigue there. Sam was pretty excited Cass was back "Unbelievable" and the car thing...I kept thinking...just shift down the road a bit guys! This private moment isn't so private!
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-17 13:41
Yeah, if it had only been one or the other it would have been nothing at all, but the questions Sam asked in the first episode about Cas also seem to tie in along with 'unbelievable' like you said, and the rather disappointing cut from Cas appearing to them sitting at the table. What? none of these guys could do 'amazed' well enough for you to film it? Or could it be that there is a flashback to that point in our future with information that they can't give us now? Or was it just a writing choice?
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:59
Quote:
and the rather disappointing cut from Cas appearing to them sitting at the table. What? none of these guys could do 'amazed' well enough for you to film it? Or could it be that there is a flashback to that point in our future with information that they can't give us now? Or was it just a writing choice?
You know, there were a couple of times where I thought, oooo...odd edit transition, strange choice. It was a new director on this episode, first timer. I wondered if the episode he turned in ran long and there were a few cuts made in post? I agree, that was a peculiar cut.

Gosh, that whole Carver, nothing is what it seems thing, just keeps bouncing around in my head. This ep has really amped up my paranoia!
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-17 14:36
deleted double post sorry
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-17 14:38
Hi, elif

Cas' mention about something is going on could be in reference to his weird feeling of being called to CIAngel's office and being memory wiped.

But Dean is clearly in the dark about that. Perhaps you also notice that Cas and Sam and Dean are talking about different things altogether. But it's so vague that they just assume that they are talking about the same things.

Also when he said that he's dirty. Dean automatically thinks about purgatory but I bet Cas doesn't think about that at all. Cas probably has been out at the same time as Dean but has been walking around all this time looking for them. His grasp of power is also weird. Could be Naomi controls his power somehow.
Reeetu
# Reeetu 2012-11-17 13:10
Thanks sweetondean i really liked your theories..I dont know where its heading but i am happy its just flowing. Dont want it to ever end..though i am the happiest seeing my fav Cass back in the avatar i always liked. Dean PSD is gone??i am not sure need to see more..Perceptio n is the key and for that i do think there is smthg fishy abt Sam..I lov my sammy..Dean loves his sammy and Sammy to love his brother but his actions are not convincing to me yet though lil progress has been made from both brother..i do want to know when Sammy said in last episode that he told Dean from where he is coming from get go- what exactly it is coz so far he too has not oened up completely..so i am assuming he is hiding smthg..
But again i am HAPPPPY..and ohh lastly - i wasnt aware of all teh wrters and heir popularity untill i come across WFB and after knwong teh series of JC writen episodes - some/most of them my all time fav.. i am execting more fromhim- iknow load of pressure but i am wondering when will he write again for SPN--will he write an episode?

Thanks again and yeah Sam and dean looked more whiteish and less tanned- guessing due to less makeup- painted whores :o liek them this way and again lastly if writers are planning to keep sammy storyline at bay for now can i pls request his Hair to be back in S3 to S6 shape i mean no pressure but i am dying to see that old look back- not like i dont like his silky smooth long hairs but hey he is hunter shud be lil unkept and it gives him much young look
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2012-11-17 13:42
Wonderful review. The bro moments had me on my feet talking to my TV and cheering Sam on for his comments to Dean about 'survivor guilt'. And the touch on the shoulder! Oh man, thought I would melt on the spot.

Saw in another thread about the Cass/Sam short glance while Cass was saying he didn't know how he got back. So went back and watched. Definitely there. And just a hint of Sam shaking his head no after Cass looked at him. What is that about? So many mysteries. Just love the season and how it has me guessing.

Thought we might see the OPT from Dean after Cass told him he can't save everyone. Oh man, but it least I felt the old 'feeling' Dean strong in that scene. Oh how Dean can make me feel his pain........! Jensen is such an incredible actor. And Jared is truly selling Sam this year also. So much being said by his expressions, without being said. Love this show!

I could go on and on, but I won't. You said it all so well. Just one parting thought. I know some people are not so excited about the references to past seasons. My theory is that TPTB are trying to help the new viewers 'get' the boys and what has gone on in the past 8 years! I'm pretty sure they have new viewers, with the Wed. night slot and Arrow lead in. I think those references can only help the new viewers get hooked and want to run out to buy previous season DVD's to catch up on the boys' past. What do you think?

Thanks again! Can't wait to see how they leave us hanging on Dec. 5th. Will be a killer break I think!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 13:54
Quote:
Can't wait to see how they leave us hanging on Dec. 5th. Will be a killer break I think!
ARGH! I'd forgotten about that! My tummy just did a flip! Nervous. :cry:
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-17 14:02
Hi Sweetondean. Your reviews are always a salve for me. Sometimes as the week goes on I wonder if my first impression of highly positive feelings are justified. Then I read your wrap up and amazingly you express everything I am feeling and can not always articulate. Yes there are some issues but I JUST DON'T CARE. I thought this episode was fabulous.

I have to admit I was puzzled that Dean chose to misremember exiting purgatory. Wondering is he really that messed up ? The guy does seem to have a propensity to take responsibility for, well, everything. I like your explanation much better and it fits.

I think Sam being manipulated would be ok for me, as it seems everyone else is too. To what extent, we shall see. I don't see it as a bad thing. Maybe this could be a way for Sam to realize what would make him happy and to pursue that.

I really loved the brotherly moments. In my experience, fights clear the air sometimes. I'm not foolish enough to think this is permanent but not so jarring as some think, either. These two have a history of blowing up and coming back together. The brothers, no matter how bad the issues have gotten, really love each other and do not want to be estranged.

Angels! I can see how Lucifer was one, as they certainly have a distain for humanity. Excluding Cas, love that he is back to fighting form. I do hope is isn't used for the fix-all. I would like to see poor Kevin's finger restored. I cringe now every time I hear the episode title.

Love that Crowley is finally showing his violent, cruel, and evil side. He wasn't always believable as a demon before.

Leviathans last season, lame. This season creepy and scary.
kaj
# kaj 2012-11-17 14:23
Hi, sweetondean,

I'd like to point out something you miss (maybe, sorry).

Quote:
Is it not more fair to say that in the stress and confusion of the situation, Dean simply didn’t realize what was happening, that he didn’t realize Cass let go, didn’t understand exactly what was going on, rather than Dean loves to self flagellate, so he’s chose to remember wrong out of his need for self loathing? Perception.
Knowing that Cas' mind is being manipulated and his memory is erased and he is being watched even when he was in Purgatory, how can you be sure that his memory is the truth?

Could it be that Dean's memory is the truth and Cas' memory is false? We've seen that even though Cas is an angel, he is not flawless.

It doesn't make sense that Dean rather considers Cas fallen off the cliff rather than accepting that Cas choose to stay behind. I know Dean loves to blame himself of other's misfortune but choosing to see his friend fall off the cliff than seeing him being strong?

Dean said many times that he tried so hard to get them out of there. (This is assuming that Cas memory is true and Dean's is wrong) He tried so hard. Dean likes to see himself DID try, and he tried hard. Leaving Cas behind in purgatory even if it was Cas own will is unacceptable in Dean's book. Leaving Cas behind to die in Purgatory is akin to Sam leaving Dean behind to die for a girl. That’s the correlation with last week episode, I think.

- But Cas wanted to stay behind in Purgatory, Dean didn't.
- Dean knew that Cas was in Purgatory and don't want to be saved (Epi. 01 Dean said "Something happened to him down there. He just let go) See, Dean knew that Cas let go of his hand. Dean knew that Cas don't want to be saved so, he doesn't try to save him, though he was mad at Cas for choosing that decision.
- Sam didn't know where Dean was and didn't even trying to look or to find out.
It's two different things.

Dean's memory is useless. It has no use whatsoever on the story telling other than expository. Meaning, to show that one or more of the character are susceptible to memory alteration. Is it Dean or is it Sam?
If Dean wants to self hate and blames himself he doesn't have to create a false memory of Cas falling off the cliff. Episode 1 has explained it all. Dean's false memory appears out of the blue in order to give hint for something in the future. To give a clue or some kind but it's done in a very choppy way and not artistic. It breaks the flow of the story telling.


Quote:
Personally I’m relieved that Dean didn’t make a conscious choice to leave Cass behind, or that Benny did something underhanded. I’ve been dreading finding out badness went down.
I personally want to see Dean did something bad because that's what they(JC, RS and the writers) said before. Now, I feel cheated.

Now, how can you be sure that Benny didn't have anything to do with it? From the picture above we see Dean lending out his left hand. His left hand where he housed Benny's soul. We know from episode 1 that Dean felt pain in his left arm because of Benny. With that pain perhaps the power that he has in his left hand is lessened. It makes sense that he was unable to pull Cas out.

Perhaps Benny had a hand in that? Who knows.

If this is true and I am assuming that Dean's memory of Cas falling off the cliff is the true memory and Cas' memory is the false one, then Dean's feeling of guilt is explainable.

Dean thought he could get his two friends out of purgatory at the same time but he could only get Benny out using his left hand yet he failed to pull Cas out using the same hand. He thought he was not strong enough to save two friends. So, he felt guilty. It correlates with the notion of Dean doing bad things in Purgatory that he opted to hide it from Sam. Not just Benny.

I mean they said that Dean had done something terrible in purgatory that he kept quiet. From what I see until now Dean only killed monsters to stay alive, befriending a non-human-drink ing-Vampire, and left Cas behind because the angel didn't want to be saved.
It was nothing dark or bad. What is this that they said to be dark and terrible thing that JC and the writers were talking about?
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 14:40
Quote:
Dean's memory is useless. It has no use whatsoever on the story telling other than expository. Meaning, to show that one or more of the character are susceptible to memory alteration. Is it Dean or is it Sam?
If Dean wants to self hate and blames himself he doesn't have to create a false memory of Cas falling off the cliff. Episode 1 has explained it all. Dean's false memory appears out of the blue in order to give hint for something in the future.
Hi kaj, I did consider that it may have been part of the angel manipulation and maybe they manipulated Dean's or Cass' memories, or both. I'm not sure to what end, but who's to know what's real and what's not now that we have seen the angels are involved in skewing reality.

But couldn't it be simply part of addressing Dean's outburst while possessed in the spectre ep - or rather, addressing Garth's advice to him to let go. We've been promised more maturity in the brothers and their relationship. Could it not be as simple as Cass showing Dean what really happened in what was obviously a stressful and confusing moment, in order to help Dean heal? To help him move forward and realise that he's not responsible for all the crap he shoulders. That by seeing that and forgiving himself, he can then move on to forgiving others?

Only the writer's know and we'll just have to wait to find out!

Thanks for your comment!
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-11-17 14:52
Again, love your review, sweetondean!

I've given up on theories, and am just enjoying the ride so far. Am loving this season (exept for Bitten) absolutely. Actually, the most since season 3. :roll:

Like you, I loved loved the brothers and their obvious caring in this one, and their touching each other just soothed my aching heart. I so hope to see more of that. :P

And, yeah, the Trans were in it, weren't they? Haha! A great big Yuck for Crowley slicing poor Kev's finger off! :-x He's really a vicious bastard this season. (can't help enjoying Mark's performance, even so)

I surprised myself with my happiness in seeing Cas back and pretty normal seeming. Love his comments, and think they help the bros situation. Sorry he is being manipulated but hope it is by good angels, if there are any left besides himself. Hope he and Sam can have a confab about Benny and help Sammy understand why Dean defends Benny. Gosh, I hope Benny doesn't betray Dean too!

Garth must have proved himself to them for them to let the Trans into his protection. Good for Garth! Hope he does a good job.

Fun to see Mrs. Tran and her water gun defeating the inept demon. She must have super strength to drag his butt into the trunk of the car. :D

Two weeks til the next 2 and then the Hated Christmas Hellatus! Sob! :sad:
Alison Kirk
# Alison Kirk 2012-11-17 15:28
I don't want the fight that was in 'The End' to come to light, because I want to the boys to go out together, that is what almost everyone wants, including Jared and Jensen. After all they've been through, I think Sam and Dean at least deserve to go to Heaven together. But if this is the direction the writers want to take, with one brother alone, then I guess we'll have to suffer through that. Darn it, they've been left alone enough. Haven't they?
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 15:43
Quote:
I don't want the fight that was in 'The End' to come to light, because I want to the boys to go out together, that is what almost everyone wants, including Jared and Jensen. After all they've been through, I think Sam and Dean at least deserve to go to Heaven together. But if this is the direction the writers want to take, with one brother alone, then I guess we'll have to suffer through that. Darn it, they've been left alone enough. Haven't they?
Oh I don't want that SO much! If they go out, they go out together if they keep kicking they keep kicking together. Anything else is just too painful to consider!

I don't want that Apocalypse Part Deux thing either...angel mind wipe...angel mind wipe.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2012-11-17 16:49
[fv][fv][fv][fv ]A long time ago I read that Kripke wanted to end S5 with the big battle between Lucifer and Michael, but with the budget limitations and the extension of the show, it did not ended like he wanted it... Big battle with especial effects and all, the aftermath of it wiping all the bad in the world, Dean and Sam of course gone and people reading the whole story in the new "new" testament under the Winchesters Gospel... maybe that's what they are going to do for the final "final" season.
On another subject. I was under the impression that Sam still have demon blood, that the light only stop his addiction, and he can still activate his demon killing powers by drinking blood, like he did to get to Lucifer. Doubt that when Crowley pulled him out of the cage clean up his blood... anyway, it was not address later. I'm correct? or I have it all wrong? [fv]A long time ago I read that Kripke wanted to end S5 with the big battle between Lucifer and Michael, but with the budget limitations and the extension of the show, it did not ended like he wanted it... Big battle with especial effects and all, the aftermath of it wiping all the bad in the world, Dean and Sam of course gone and people reading the whole story in the new "new" testament under the Winchesters Gospel... maybe that's what they are going to do for the final "final" season. On another subject. I was under the impression that Sam still have demon blood, that the light only stop his addiction, and he can still activate his demon killing powers by drinking blood, like he did to get to Lucifer. Doubt that when Crowley pulled him out of the cage clean up his blood... anyway, it was not address later. I'm correct? or I have it all wrong? [/fv]
Kristina
# Kristina 2012-11-18 23:56
[fv][fv][fv][fv ]A long time ago I read that Kripke wanted to end S5 with the big battle between Lucifer and Michael, but with the budget limitations and the extension of the show, it did not ended like he wanted it... Big battle with especial effects and all, the aftermath of it wiping all the bad in the world, Dean and Sam of course gone and people reading the whole story in the new "new" testament under the Winchesters Gospel... maybe that's what they are going to do for the final "final" season.
On another subject. I was under the impression that Sam still have demon blood, that the light only stop his addiction, and he can still activate his demon killing powers by drinking blood, like he did to get to Lucifer. Doubt that when Crowley pulled him out of the cage clean up his blood... anyway, it was not address later. I'm correct? or I have it all wrong?

To answer your questions:
Yes Kripke did want the show to end with S5 but the network said no so they tweeked things a little bit to be able to keep going and he of course stepped down from the show. As far as for a "final" season I don't know if they would want to go that route for it. I guess we will have to wait and see.

As for the demon blood, my impression was that when Cas "took" Sam's crazy he took all of it. Sam doesn't have the ability anymore. I don't know if thats accurate or not but that was how I took it. Cas basically reset Sam to before Azazel (Yellow eyes) feed him demon blood and obviously took away all his damage from 180 years in the cage with Lucifer and Michael.

I hope that helps answer some of your questions. :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-19 00:09
Quote:
As for the demon blood, my impression was that when Cas "took" Sam's crazy he took all of it. Sam doesn't have the ability anymore. I don't know if thats accurate or not but that was how I took it. Cas basically reset Sam to before Azazel (Yellow eyes) feed him demon blood and obviously took away all his damage from 180 years in the cage with Lucifer and Michael.
The dialog was clear that Cas did NOT take ALL of Sam's crazy. Cas said he could get Sam back on his feet, not that he cured Sam. Do I think we will ever hear about Sam's suffering in the Cage again? Heck no! Sam just isn't important enough for them to even acknowledge that he ever suffered anything. But technically, Cas did not take away the crazy and the demon blood was never mentioned, so who knows what if anything has happened with that.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2012-11-19 00:33
Quote:
Cas basically reset Sam to before Azazel (Yellow eyes) feed him demon blood and obviously took away all his damage from 180 years in the cage with Lucifer and Michael.
I have seen this comment several times now and just don't understand where people get that Sam spent 180 years in the cage. He got out almost immediately when Cass came back for him and he saw Dean with Lisa and Ben and he spent the next year hunting with Samual. He was not in the cage all that time. In Season 6, The Man Who Would Be King, Castiel contiplates all the decisions he made and talks about after healing Dean, and bringing Bobby back to life, he knew what he had to do next. That was to go get Sam out of Hell. So where does the 180 years come from, I have to ask?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-19 00:39
Quote:
So where does the 180 years come from, I have to ask?
Sam's body got out almost immediately, but his soul was in for one year before he hooked up with Dean and another 6 months before Dean got his soul back. Most of us are using Dean's 1 month on earth = 10 years in Hell conversion table, so Sam's SOUL was in the cage for 18 months x 10 years or 180 years. I mean technically Dean's body NEVER went to Hell, but Dean suffered the damage and trauma that were done to his soul. Sam gets the same consideration. The time his soul was tortured is what counts, not his body.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2012-11-19 08:22
Thanks percysowner for the reminder. I forgot that little but very important detail that Sam's soul did not come with him and so of course it was subjected to all those years of torture. It's all in the details no matter how small.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2012-11-19 19:44
Thanks Kristina for taking the time to answer my questions.
Alison Kirk
# Alison Kirk 2012-11-17 17:56
Sam and Dean either go out together or not at all, they finally get to settle down. Maybe in a small town, or somewhere near a small college, Sam goes back to school, and maybe Dean becomes a mechanic. I think I would love this ending. After all is said and done, Sam and Dean go out in a blaze of Glory. They wake up on that field of the Fourth of July 1996, and then they join Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Rufus, Mary, John, and Ash in heaven. And maybe Jessica too. Omg. I made my self cry. I also think maybe they should have God show up, where he gives the boys a second chance at life, a life with no hunting at all, where they grow up with a mother and father, where Mary never made the deal. Where Sam grows up, goes to college, meets Jessica and marries her. And maybe Dean meets a nice girl and gets married too.
Leah
# Leah 2012-11-17 20:20
Ok now you are making me cry. It is a wonderful thought but this doesn't seem like the Supernatural way. Just thinking about the end of the show is sad in itself. I want to appreciate it now while we have it.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-19 08:50
Alison, having the boys go out in a blaze of glory and then we get to see them in Heaven with all their friends is actually a favourite idea of mine as far as the end of the show is concerned. I also like the idea that they just get into the Impala and ride off into the sunset. I agree with you- either they both go out or they don't go out at all. I really, really hope we don't have to see any "one dies and the other lives". I mean we all know these guys don't do well on their own.
Vanda
# Vanda 2012-11-17 19:38
Great review Amy, I'm a bit sceptical myself about what the "angels" are up to... as for the Dean & Sam thing. I think it's just that Dean (even though possessed at the time) let out what he was feeling & Sam probably realised that his actions may not have been the right ones at the time. Afterall he has his brother back & that's all that matters.

I found Cas' talk with Dean very heartfelt. Dean as always was punishing himself for responsibility for leaving Cas behind when all along, it was Cas who pulled away. Glad he was able to tell dean the truth. I was totally roped into that little scene.

Love seeing the Trans in action they are a wonderful tagteam of fun & brains!

...and Crowley with his little bag of tricks & his apron. Classic!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-17 20:04
Haha! I love his apron. It always makes me laugh!
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-11-17 19:42
Interesting review, I enjoyed reading it :) I also agree on the issue of less make-up on the Winchesters, I have noticed in recent episodes os this season that they have been wearing noticeable amounts of foundation and, to me, that doesn't make sense for two reasons: 1) Freckles (aka Frackles ;-) ) I like to see JA's pale complexion and freckles and 2) I don't think of Sam and Dean as leading very outdoorsy lifestyles (with their spending a lot of time researching hunts in motel rooms and their working a lot at night) and so they should be pale rather than tanned.

One issue on which I have a different view than you is Sam's year without Dean. I'm happier with the idea that the Angels have manipulated Sam into making the choices he made during Dean's year in Purgatory. I feel that makes Sam's behaviour less OOC rather than him just giving up on Dean. Plus, the idea of Amelia being some sort of sleeper agent or figment of Sam's imagination is much more interesting to me than Amelia being a romantic interest :)
Amy
# Amy 2012-11-17 19:49
I'm confused. If the Angels want Apocolypse pt 2 then they would want Dean topside. And they WOULDN"T want Sam to not search for Dean. Wouldn't they secretly motivate Sam to continue searching Obsessively for Dean, even tossing him kernals of hints?

I can't see them seeing Sam as leaving hunting and setteleing down with a girl as a solution to the apocolypse. I COULD see them not wanting Sam to drive off a cliff cause then well...there are no future Winchesters to be vessels.

What if the unseen GOD stayed Sam from killing himself by tossing a DOG in front of the car and knowing Sam needed time to heal put the dog in front of the Impala knowing Ameila and Sam could help each other.

What the Angels do after that to try and prod Sam to where they want him to go. and who knows...maybe in the 2 months Sam discovered something of the Angels plan. and maybe THEY needed to distract him so they mind wiped him adn tossed a dog in front of the car so he would loose his way.

Only Sam found peace and they watched him because .. IDK....they are a suspicious lot and needed to make sure Sam didn't remember

or maybe the Angels have something else up their sleeve and wanted the Winchesters seperated and at odds. So knwoing no matter what they would be reunited they orchestrated it so the brothers would be at odds. Heightening Dean's sense of betrayal and guilt. And Sams desire for normal

I still think the whole Ameila thing is suspect. Probably not real. or she is real but the relationship is a memory manipulation.

I dont get how Castiel is supposed to be a spy against the guys? I mean unless he is riding in the backseat of the IMpala any info will be hit or miss.

personally I would love to see benny slip up or nearly slip up soley so Sam empathises and tries to help Benny. Sam has first hand knowledge of falling off the blood wagon. If anyone could help Benny it would be Sam. And it would be cooler if Dean thought Sam went to hunt Benny in a 'humane' way only to learn Sam saved Benny
aelaine
# aelaine 2012-11-17 19:56
Great review! It is like reading my own thoughts, in a more coherent form! Best season in a long time, not too fond of a reset and do over and hope that doesn't happen, but otherwise very happy with they way things are going, Carver said he wanted to bring the focus back to to the brothers and have them realize that they want to be together even if they may wish for something different and looks like he is getting there. If Sam didn't look for Dean, but it kept him sane, I don't have a problem with it and don't think Dean will either.
I am loving this season and man Crowley! Really showing his true colors! But Cas, why have you been hiding those powers? They look so good on you! Noami, what are you up to? and why isn't someone rescuing poor Samadrial (sp?). anyway thanks for great review
Karen Graham
# Karen Graham 2012-11-17 21:23
I've only discovered your reviews lately and really enjoy reading them. As well as putting into words some of the things I love about each episode, you always give me some new perspective to think about each of the scenes (that hadn't necessarily occurred to me)... like Sam talking about 'survivor's guilt' being a reflection of what he went through. I really think that is true!!

I also think this season has been fantastic with the slow reveal of everything (and the varying perceptions), and I'm really enjoying the ride. Thanks!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-18 01:19
I found the whole Deanguilt-Cassp eech-and Cas's reasons especially silly.I sincerely hope there is more to it that somehow the memories of both have been manipulated.As far as Sam's memories go i want them to not have been manipulated as i want him to have a break from manipulations.N o Amelia so a minus point.I loved Trans and the way Sam acted with Mrs Tran was perfect.Sam and his compassion,even after Dean's spectre induced outburst Sam is so compassionate ,admirable.The new angels made the story more interesting.
Tiny
# Tiny 2012-11-18 05:34
Thanks Amy! Another great episode and another great review!!

I love that we know a bit more about the prophets. I think while it's new info, it's fitting into the mytho of the show perfectly!

As I mentioned in my review, I liked how Sera brought back Cas in season 7 and I didn't think anyone else could top that! And this episode proved me wrong. And I am happy to be wrong! I love how Cas' return is so well connected to purgatory, his mistakes, and his friendship with Dean. I love the Dean and Cas stuff!!

If there is a God rock (or a few) for everything, I think the demons will do anything to get hold of that and try to destroy them. I think Naomi is Transformer. I love Amanda Tapping! Love her since SG1!!

I love the angels on the show. Yes, I don't trust them and there are a lot of SOBs. But I like them as part of the show, because we don't see them portrayed like this on other show. I just love how Supernatural put their own stamp on 'angels'. For this season, I really hope to see God, because Chuck Shirley (Rob Benedicts) can bring something new to this character and the show. Game-changing!! I think that's what season 8 is going for.. Game-changing stuff!!

Dean's hero complex is going to the next level. I love Jensen' performance in this episode a lot! It reminds me so much of the Dean in season 4 & 5. The whole "You don't think you deserve to be saved" and "Do you not trust me that I could save you?" Again. I love that!!

I feel for Kevin! I think until Chuck, he doesn't get the headache, he isn't a writer. Rather he interprets God's words. He is picking up a few tricks to protect himself and his mother. I love their addition to the show. I think they are bringing in new perspectives, just like Garth did last week. It is a show about the brothers, but in terms of the story, they are not alone in this and they can lead humanity to save the world.

Why do we have to wait for a week for Looney Tunes? WHY?

Awesome stuff Amy!!

Tiny
(((bear hugs)))
nicole murray
# nicole murray 2012-11-18 14:46
Hi Amy! Liked your review! you went into thoughts more on what could be going on with the angels. I'm just seeing them as lying liars that lie...and forcing Cas to speak the truth! no good can come of that! we both pontificated on the Survivor's Guilt line from Sam. I agree uber important. Since I have NOT been listening to what Carver has said about the season and just watching it unfold, the perceptions thing is coming through, but I do hope that Sam's decisions were his own and not something more nefarious...alt hough I would NOT be surprised to find out that he was being nudged in a certain direction by the angels. I doubt they would still be watching him though if they weren't worried about Dean getting out. I would agree it probably has to do with those god tablets, that may have some way of blocking angelic intervention on earth as well as demonic intervention on earth. luckily we have so much more of the season to go (albeit not for another week)! and to answer tiny, I imagine the week's wait has to do with all our special Thanksgiving programing here in the colonies! :D
GeorgiaRose
# GeorgiaRose 2012-11-18 22:27
I’m pretty new to Supernatural and haven’t seen all the episodes and not all the ones I’ve seen haven’t been in order, so can someone help me out or point me to some other articles about a couple things, please? The comments about Apocalypse 2.0 made me think you all might have some insights.

It seems there’s been a good bit in past seasons about how the brothers are considered special by both angels and demons. Specifically, that they are from John Winchester’s bloodline and there’s some prophecy about two brothers in John’s bloodline. Is there any backstory on hunter bloodlines in general and why their father’s bloodline is important rather than their mother’s when she was the one from the hunting family?

Also, if it’s something in their very DNA that draws supernatural attention to them, why do they believe they can “get out?” It seems reasonable that if someone starts hunting because of one very bad thing that happened to them or someone they loved, that they could stop after dealing with that situation, but if you’ve got some kind of supernatural GPS in your backside how do you get off their radar? If Sam and Dean do survive, have families, etc., without fulfilling whatever their destinies are, then could those destinies pass to their descendants? (If Ben really is Dean’s son, will he be let alone even with the memory wipe?)
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-19 00:36
I’ll give it a go (there is a site called supernatural wiki which probably has better answers, but now I am interested):

According to canon Sam and Dean are descended directly from Cain and Abel through John. It seems that Ben is definitely not Dean's son since both Lisa and the demon who possessed Lisa say he isn't.

John Winchester was not a hunter nor was there any idea of it in his background – Mary’s family were hunters for many generations (I think – I can’t remember what episode that was in)

I don’t think that hunters and angel vessels are connected – Sam and Dean (and Adam) are apparently just unlucky to combine both.

Angels have vessels from specific bloodlines, also all the angels are ‘brothers’ (I assume they are gender neutral except when they are in vessels) but it doesn’t seem to imply that the human vessels for different angels have to be related – maybe it is just that all the bloodlines for the angels go back to Adam and Eve. Since Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve’s oldest sons there may be some reason why their descendents continue to be brothers (this is not how genetics works, but hey, we’re all descended from 2 people and, too, the world was created on Sunday, 23 October 4004 BC).

It would be interesting if it turned out that, for people who are potential angel vessels, if they don’t get chosen they are more prone to be connected to the supernatural and therefore more likely to become hunters (there is also no good reason for that but it could explain why there are hunters and ‘Muggles’ and the Muggles generally seem not to be aware of the worst of the supernatural events). However I think in the SPN world people don’t get the chance to escape once they are in the world – things come looking for them and their families so they have to remain active hunters to survive, or they die young.

Disclaimer: everything below is from the internet … so, accuracy? Maybe not (that’s a lot of wasted years of religious education for me):

Apparently all of Cain’s descendents died in the Flood and Abel hadn’t gotten around to reproducing by the time he was murdered – so this might be a problem for the whole descendent thing.

Adam and Eve had 56 children 33 boys and 23 girls – maybe that is how many angels there are (for no particular reason except symmetry) .

Here’s a potential storyline:
Everyone is descended from Adam and Eve, except Eve was Adam’s second wife. Lilith was his first (where have we heard that name before) Lilith was the first feminist and wouldn’t be subservient to Adam so he went and complained to God and got a better wife on the second attempt (that last is me paraphrasing).
Lilith then went off and mated with an Archangel called Samael. Now I feel this is a sadly overlooked plot in the whole Supernatural world to date! Lilith becomes the first demon (in SPN it is Lucifer who turns her into a demon) I think we need to meet this Samael person and see why he doesn’t have a major issue with Lucifer.

We probably won’t get any more plot with to do with Lilith though because apparently the cast find her name way too hard to say :D
Kristina
# Kristina 2012-11-19 01:00
Quote:

According to canon Sam and Dean are descended directly from Cain and Abel through John. It seems that Ben is definitely not Dean's son since both Lisa and the demon who possessed Lisa say he isn't.
Your last thought here isn't right (I just watched that episode a few weeks ago). The demon that was in Lisa told Dean that Ben WAS his. We know that demons lie but we also know that they tell the truth when that would hurt more. In this case finding out that Ben is his would kill Dean, which is why he asked Cas to wipe their memories. I also think that is why Dean was going crazy to make sure that Lisa survived, so that Ben would not have to be raised by him, and thus in the hunter lifestyle.

Anyway I don't remember what episode that happens in, but I was a late comer to Supernatural so I watched S1-S7 on DVD in less than a months' time. I just got caught up about a week ago actually. I will double check that I remembered that correctly because if your right then kudos and I don't want to push false info. :D

And by the way I love all of your other info. Some of it I knew (the boys being decentants of Cain and Abel) but some of the other stuff not so much. And even the stuff that may or may not be correct still is interesting to think about.......
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-19 01:51
Kristina, I haven't watched that episode in a while either (I think it was Let It Bleed), and although I don't think the demon specifically said Ben wasn't Dean's, I do think we were meant to assume that it was just screwing with him. I don't think Lisa wouldn't have told Dean the truth in the year they were together, and I'm not sure they should've gone through with the mind wipe if Ben was Dean's. So even though there's no hard and fast answer either way, I don't think Ben is meant to be Dean's.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-19 01:59
But everyone's descended from Cain and Abel, right? And yes, the demon did say that Ben was Dean's son.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-19 05:05
In the most traditional scriptures, I think we are meant to be all descended (somehow) from Cain and Abel. But some versions of Adam and Eve's story (as eilf mentioned above) say they had anything from 7 to 63 children, so we could be descended from any of their children's bloodlines. Cain and Abel were their first born children, though, and probably the most well known.
Yes, I think the demon did say that Ben was Dean's, but as to whether it was telling the truth or just messing with him, we don't actually know for sure.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-19 09:45
I was watching the ep yesterday, here is the transcript line:

DEMON!LISA: (to Dean) What? I was just gonna him that you're his real daddy. (Dean stares.) (Demon!Lisa laughs.) Just kidding. (to Ben) Who knows who your real dad is, kid? Your mom's a slut.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-19 09:55
thank you! I got very entertained by the research :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-19 08:01
Quote:
According to canon Sam and Dean are descended directly from Cain and Abel through John.
Then according to canon, Cain and Abel had a baby together? No wonder this fandom has incest slash and mpreg, the canon actually supports it. Kidding, kidding really.

I wasn't wild about the Apocalypse storyline, but I LOATHED the decision to say Sam and Dean were descended from Cain and Abel. Partly because they were them and mostly because IT MADE NO SENSE. The Angels were talking out of their, what can I say, hats and that part was a complete mess.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-19 08:15
Yeah, I don't know either about the whole Cain and Abel thing. I think they might've been trying to be all poetic and clever, but never actually thought it thru.
I'm a little rusty too on what it actually says in the Bible about Adam and Eve's kids, so I'm leaving it there, since I'm not sure I want to get into a discussion about all the, er, other stuff too (No wonder this fandom has such a...reputation online) ;-)
I actually liked the idea of them being like Michael and Lucifer, the way Gabriel explained it in Changing Channels, it made sense to me.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-19 09:53
:D Maybe I should have made the logic of my sentence more clear ....

The Cain and Abel thing doesn't really make any sense for the SPN plot, you are right.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-19 00:33
I don't think we're facing Apocalypse Redux. The writers are struggling with emotional authenticity and emotional logic this season, but not so much with plot mechanics, so I don't see them rehashing old material like that. It could be that rather than Apocalypse Pt. 2, we've got Plan B. If there's a tablet with the instructions for closing the gates of Hell, then there may be one for closing the gates of Heaven. Whichever side gets to the other's tablet first wins. We get essentially the same result as the Apocalypse, but without the wars and the bloody deaths of millions, and once again, the angels and demons each see themselves coming out on top if they play their cards right. So far, that means getting hold of the tablets and the prophet who can read them. I think the reason Sam was being watched was that he was the most concrete lead they had to Kevin's whereabouts. However, it wasn't panning out, because Sam had dropped out and wasn't searching for Kevin. They may then have arranged for Dean to be led to the portal, figuring he might lead them to Kevin. Now the angels have got Cas as a sleeper agent following the brothers around as they try to recover the tablets. I don't see a scenario in which Sam has been manipulated; his decisions may have run counter to their hopes and actually delayed Kevin's discovery.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-19 01:55
I really like this theory. We've got the same players but a twist on the old game. I really don't want to see the apocalypse redux, but this -- if we have to continue angels & demons mythos is something different.
Kristina
# Kristina 2012-11-19 00:43
So I wasn't going to comment, not because I have nothing to say but simply because I seem to be in a minority with my thoughts here. Again thats not bad but I just figured it was not worth the time when most of the people here don't feel similar to me.

Anyway I totally agree that the angels are up to something and I fear it is nothing good. My thought on the matter is that they need the Winchesters to find the remaining tablets. Maybe there is some reason that the angels can't find them on their own or maybe the can't touch them. Like a Sword in the Stone type of thing, the tablets have to have something done to them to get them out of their hiding places and the angels can't do it.

As for the prophet situation, my thoughts are these. Chuck I don't believe is god. I actually think he is Metatron. I also believe that when Dick (I'm so glad we can be over the Dick jokes) retrieved the first tablet that is what "activated" Kevin. As long as the tablets were in hiding there would be no prophet, and this works because I don't believe that Chuck was really a prophet (as I said before).

I also agree that there is probably an angel tablet. I would venture that it probably has similar things like the demon and Leviathan ones. How to banish, protect from, and probably kill angels. I mean this coming from a human stand point. We know that Sam and Dean know these things from Cas but a normal human that has never met an angel would not have this knowledge. I also have been thinking that the individual tablets may not be what the angels are after. What if when they are put together they form something else?? A weapon maybe or some sort of protection..... .?!

I don't know but I just think there is a bigger picture to all of this and we are getting small pieces that are not necessarily in order. I also commented about this in a different section, but I think Cas is an arcAngel now. I don't know that I believe that Naomi brought him back, I think it was God and I think he gave him a promotion in the process. We know that God is still around and is just not playing an active role with the angels or anything else really. But he saved Cas a few times and he pulled Sam and Dean out of the church when Lucifer was released.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-11-19 01:55
Hi Kristina, those are some interesting thoughts. I like the idea that the tablets are all pieces of a bigger puzzle. What that is, I guess, remains to be seen, but it makes for some good speculation!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-19 15:28
Hi Kristina
I really love the idea that putting the tablets together creates something else. Maybe a weapon? Or maybe something happens when they all come together? Or maybe bringing them all together creates a bigger message - like there something in them you can't see until you have them all?

You've sure got me thinking!

Thanks for your comment!
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-11-19 10:02
The whole bible theories are just not reliable for people to speculate. tptb make things up when they go through the son, its my opinion.

But I am thinking already for a long time of the Cain and Abel brother thing. Cain killed Abel its the first brother murder in "religious" history! A sin, more than that! And Cain atoned for it, it was his punishment to roam the earth, he was vagrant, he carried a mark at his body for the rest of his life, the mark of Cain.

I always looked at Dean as someone with a dark spot in himself. The way how he piles guilt on himself that is unhealthy and he acts like a self inflicted matyr, he also has a hero complex, wants to be the good guy. He is judmental, holding grudges way to long against his brother,he also doesn't like Sam's longing for independance and that Sam wants to do his own thing, he can't act differently. He also did not kill his brother, but he certainly was more than often in a position where he would have done it. The grudge he feels against Sam, for me it feels almost palpable. Dean is driven by hunting (again after a very long time where his hell memories destroyed his desire to live on)

I won't judge Dean here and he has a long leeway from me because he was there for a whole year in fighting mode.

Now look at Sam's nature, he is inherent empathetic, compassionate, forgiving, a good ol' soul, BUT with demon blood, with demons around his whole life, he is tainted, but he still maintained his goodness, his innocence.

the thing is in SPN that Sam has no POV and we as viewers view him the way Dean is looking at him (I don't like it because it puts Sam in the fog) but Dean in the spotlight.

It could just be that Dean is carrying still this mark of Cain in him, two sides in him, one is his protectivness of Sam, the protector, the other is his resentment, grudge, it comes out of my screen watching him. I don't know if this is intended by the show or not.

I hoped for Dean in purgatory that it takes away this mark of Cain and he can look at Sam and see him who he really is, not judging and resenting anymore, that he is cleaned inwardly and pure now like purgatory should do this to a human being (but unfortunately this is SPN world)

The amulet (the Samulet) was some kind of connection between Sam and Dean, a sign of their bond. This bond is almost not there anymore, also the amulet. Maybe it has something to do with Cain/Abel/John/God.

This is just my thinking and not from a reliable source, so to speak my two cents
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-11-19 12:36
That was a great review, I too really liked this episode. I feel so bad for Dean always burdening himself with all this guilt even though it's unfounded most of the time. That was such a nice moment when Cass told him, "You can't save everyone my friend, though you try". :cry: He called Dean my friend! Oh Cass you sweet angel. And Sam being there and listening to his big bro, and his big bro actually opening up to how he feels. Let me rephrase this, I don't like this episode, I love it. And those nasty corporate angels, or to use Ardeospina's beautifully coined name CIAngels, I don't know if they are "Raphaelites" that want the Apocalypse back on track, but they are messing with our Winchester boys again, and that simply will not do!

It's truly amazing how this show gets to us all. I find myself thinking about this show when I'm driving, when I'm cooking, Hell, basically everything I do I'm thinking about SPN! I've tried in vain to explain to friends and family the awesomeness that is SPN. I don't even want to lend my DVD's to any of these neophytes in case they should criticize SPN in my presence! It's only a show, it's only a show...or so I try to keep telling myself. :-)
m1tchells
# m1tchells 2012-11-19 15:33
Quote:
It's truly amazing how this show gets to us all. I find myself thinking about this show when I'm driving, when I'm cooking, Hell, basically everything I do I'm thinking about SPN! I've tried in vain to explain to friends and family the awesomeness that is SPN. I don't even want to lend my DVD's to any of these neophytes in case they should criticize SPN in my presence! It's only a show, it's only a show...or so I try to keep telling myself. :-)
Yes to all of this! lol! I even keep telling myself that this obsession is just not normal! geez...
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-19 15:39
Oh Sylvie, me too! Driving is a particular good musing time! Last night I woke up in the middle of the night and found myself considering angel theories! I had to laugh....
Darya
# Darya 2012-11-19 17:29
Its so funny I'm seeing this comment now because it's four in the morning in India, and I'm still awake because I've been going through convention videos of the J2s and Misha Collins. "It's just a show" doesn't even cross my mind!

I've just finished my novel, it's getting picked up by a pretty good publisher, and so much inspiration comes from SPN. I should probably put that somewhere. It wouldn't be what it is without my SPN marathons in between, and I'm actually really greatful that I found it and the awesome SPN Family.

(and I'm always playing the SPN OST while driving :D )
elle
# elle 2012-11-19 15:48
Hi SweetonDean,
Excellent look at an excellent episode. I too loved it!

Like you, I'm not on board with the idea that Chuck is dead - first and foremost because that felt like a great deal of effort and purpose to mention it. Usually when something is done that way on TV, it's deliberate and will be relevant later. I could be wrong, but I sincerely hope not.

Speaking of the angels not wanting to close Hell either - I like your theory on that one. I wonder if there is a way to, not quite close hell but to put Heaven and Hell in a restricted lock down type of thing? I.E. demons can't come out and wreak havock and angels can't come down and manipulate as they do, but human souls continue to head to their respective afterlives as needed. I am certain curious where all this will end up, that's for sure.

Finally - you mentioned Sam's line about survivors guilt maybe being a reference to himself during the year where Dean was in Purgatory. That's probably the case, but when he said it I could help but be reminded of Mystery Spot, the 6 months where Sam kind of went mad, unable to move on from Dean's death and hunting down the Trickster.

Anyways - thanks for a great review and the provocative thoughts! Can't wait for the next episode.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-19 16:14
I'm not on board with Chuck being dead either. Assumed into Heaven after completing his work, I could buy. The other suggestion that Chuck is canonically established as God, would make me very unhappy.

Frankly, I think they went into the big song and dance about Chuck because they wanted to have a reason why Crowley gathered all the potential prophets in one place and the only thing the writers could come up with was there can only be one prophet at a time. The writers did go the extra step and remember to put out Chuck's name to explain why Kevin came online, but it all felt very stuff it into a story to make it work, rather than being a natural off shoot that had been well thought out.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-19 17:50
Quote:
Frankly, I think they went into the big song and dance about Chuck because they wanted to have a reason why Crowley gathered all the potential prophets in one place and the only thing the writers could come up with was there can only be one prophet at a time.
I like the concept of just one prophet. It made me wonder if they - being God or Heaven or whomever - activate the one needed when a prophet was required. Chuck wrote the word of God (in relation to the Winchesters) Kevin reads the word of God. Maybe the prophets all have unique talents.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-19 17:46
Quote:
HFinally - you mentioned Sam's line about survivors guilt maybe being a reference to himself during the year where Dean was in Purgatory. That's probably the case, but when he said it I could help but be reminded of Mystery Spot, the 6 months where Sam kind of went mad, unable to move on from Dean's death and hunting down the Trickster.
And when Dean went to Hell. Both times, Sam was lost - either through grief or survivor's guilt - but maybe he learnt and that's why this time he found a way within himself to "walk past it" because neither of the previous experiences ended in a healthy outcome!
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-19 17:53
Yeah, which is why we need to see what happened between 7.23 and when Sam walked into the vet's office with Dog because his apparent lack of response to Dean's disappearance seems out of character. We need to see what he was like and how he got to a place where he wasn't that almost sociopathic hunter that we saw the other times that he lost DEan.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-11-19 17:56
Totally agree Lia, I would like to see the few months before he hit that dog. Maybe he'll share that with Cass? Whatever, I need those flashbacks too.
st50
# st50 2012-11-19 17:18
Been away for a bit, and just popped in to read your review, sweetondean. As always, thank you for that.
Oh, and THANK YOU for the V-neck Tshirt shot. :-) ;-)

I agree with the Chuck is not dead. Can't be. They've killed off so many other great characters. Chuck is more than just a prophet. He's gotta still be around.

One point. I was chatting with a friend who is a casual SPN viewer - watches every episode, but while doing other things. (I know, how is that possible! :o )
This friend made an interesting comment, though. "What works for this show seems to be oddly lacking this year. It's the chemistry between the 2 leads that makes it, and they're so very often apart this season. It's just not working for me."
Hmm. Just dropping that in...

Heading back to read the other comments now.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-19 17:20
I'm hearing exactly that as well, and I agree.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-19 19:22
All of Dean's emotional processing is taking place apart from Sam. It's Garth who remonstrates with Dean about grudges at the end of "Southern Comfort". It's Cas who helps him deal with his guilt  in "A Little Slice of Kevin." There's no rapprochement with Sam in at the end of SC, no lines between them to reorient the audience to how the brothers are feeling in the wake of their fight. They're just mysteriously not fighting in the next episode. Likewise, the "survivor's guilt" line suggests something about the mental journey Sam went through in the past year, but it hardly scratches the surface. It's up to another character to fix things.
eilf
# eilf 2012-11-19 17:29
Here is one of the best Sci-fi magazines around, giving the show quite a lot of well deserved love! I would have liked to put it on the appreciation thread but, sadly can't, you will see why:

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2012/11/13/10-episodes-that-every-sci-fi-show-must-have/
st50
# st50 2012-11-19 17:45
Great article!
And I agree with their 3 Supernatural picks! Yay for showing Supernatural some love!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-11-19 20:45
Loved all the SPN references and agreed with them all. Thanks for the heads up on the article.
GeorgiaRose
# GeorgiaRose 2012-11-19 22:27
Thank you so much to everyone for their comments, especially eilf for getting the ball rolling. I wasn't aware of the Cain/Abel link but agree with those who said it doesn't make any sense. There's actually a passage in Genesis 6 toward the beginning that has been HOTLY debated among scholars for years that says “The Nephilim were on the earth in those days – and also afterward – when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.” (NIV) Many scholars from the Judeo-Christian tradition who have studied these for years cannot agree on exactly who the “sons of God” were and some people also debate who the Nephilim really were/are. That passage has always intrigued me and I liked to think that the old Hunter lines are descended from the “sons of God” and “daughters of men” from way back then. Y’all just burst my bubble!

On the other hand, the idea that there are more tablets out there and that putting them all together will show a much larger picture of how things were meant to be or something similar…LOVE IT! When I first saw the CIAngels, my first thought was that there’s an Angel tablet and that was what they were going for, not The Apocalypse Part Deux.

From the episodes I’ve seen from previous seasons, I have to say I felt that the relationship between the two brothers was clearer and better before last season. Their characterizatio n and communication seemed more...open? focused?...not really the right words but I don’t have better ones. To me, this was the best episode of the season because they had a moment of connection. The distance may be deliberate on the part of the writers. One of my friends’ boyfriends came home after serving a year overseas and his headspace is not good. My friend was really angry at him until the counselors at the base helped her at least scratch the understanding that she cannot truly get what he went through. He’s going both to sessions with his fellow soldiers and with her...the sessions are helping them understand and re-connect, but there are things he can only talk about and work through with others who have been in similar situations.

Dean’s coming out of a horrible, traumatic year where he has been on constant alert because his life was in danger, Cass disappeared right away and Benny was really the only one there with him who fought at his side and watched his back and we have no idea how long it took for them to meet. From what we’ve been allowed to get from Sam, he had (at least mostly) a good year, fell in love, got a dog, apparently got a job and seemingly bought a house with the woman he loved…he thinks he had one of the best years of his life. They are coming from really different places.

Not looking for sympathy here, but I was the sole caretaker for my mother for about two years while she went through her last battle with cancer. I can’t begin to describe what it was like. She needed care around the clock because she could not walk on her own or do much for herself and there were numerous crises. I continued to work full-time because my job allowed me the flexibility of working remotely, but I took care of my mother, the house, the yard, our pets…everythi ng. There wasn’t even anyone close enough to help with her appointments or do our shopping. She needed medicine administered every four hours and I rarely got more than four hours of sleep a night. My doctor diagnosed me with PTSD about three months after she passed when I went in because I’d pretty much stopped sleeping and was really jumpy and short-tempered. Almost the same time Mom got her diagnosis for the last cancer, my little sister got a fabulous new job with a huge pay raise. She lost weight, started going to the gym every day, scheduling a mani/pedi every week, getting frequent massages and having her hair done every three weeks. Besides which, she bought a new car, a new house and met and fell in love with a gorgeous, successful, talented and NICE man who worships the ground she walks on. Seriously? It’s like I’m speaking Chinese and she’s speaking Latin when we’re together. We used to speak the same language and have a great time together and I hope and pray we will get back there again. As much as I love her our best communication for now seems to be through other people, though we’re working on it. My sister is beautiful, smart and one of the kindest people you'll ever meet and deserves every good thing in this life and I want her to have it all, but please understand that Dean especially has my complete sympathy right now and I'm glad to see that he's trying and hope to see more about Sam to understand him better soon.
st50
# st50 2012-11-19 23:30
GeorgiaRose,
I'll extend good thoughts and hugs to you, with sympathy for your loss - and with empathy for your struggles.
It sounds horribly, horribly trite, but truly, Time heals all. Just keep talking to whoever listens.

And yes, I sympathize with Dean - and with Sam. Both these guys have gone through so much, it's amazing either of them is still walking and talking, "putting on their socks and the whole 9 yards". And absolutely no wonder they're having trouble communicating.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-19 23:38
Quote:
Dean’s coming out of a horrible, traumatic year where he has been on constant alert because his life was in danger, Cass disappeared right away and Benny was really the only one there with him who fought at his side and watched his back and we have no idea how long it took for them to meet. From what we’ve been allowed to get from Sam, he had (at least mostly) a good year, fell in love, got a dog, apparently got a job and seemingly bought a house with the woman he loved…he thinks he had one of the best years of his life. They are coming from really different places. 
Are they? With the litany of sufferings that Sam has been through, how is it that he would not be able to understand where Dean is coming from? This is not Season 4, where Dean has been to Hell and Sam hasn't, this is many more miles down the road, and one year of the good life isn't enough to erase all that. Sam ought to be one of the most, not least likely people for Dean to connect to.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-20 06:55
This is one of my beefs with Carver, that it seems like the importance of the past year is being exaggerated over all the other years of experience in Sam and Dean's life. They seem to be treating it almost as though Sam is coming entirely from a sheltered, civilian perspective and Dean from a traumatic war movie perspective. Yet Sam has had plenty of extreme and traumatic experience in his past, and Dean has had and wanted normal (yes, Dean may have been in not great shape the year with Lisa, but Sam had at least a few months of being completely at a loss this past year, and s6 made it clear that Dean also had a lot of genuinely good memories of his year with Lisa and Ben). The gulf that their separate years has created between them feels very artificial to me, and, to be honest, I find Carver's privileging of the experiences HE wrote for the characters over the years of established canon that came before rather off-putting for my view both of his skill and his intentions as a showrunner. And I think his product is suffering from that writing flaw.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-20 08:00
I have to agree. Sam is ringing especially false this season. His apparent emotion detachment just doesn't make sense. He's been studying Dean since he was a little kid. If Dean has ptsd, Sam would know that and he wouldn't just callously tell Dean he wants out of hunting. Sam wanting 'normal' doesn't make sense either given what he's been through over the previous seven seasons. He got beyond that a long time ago. He told Samuel Colt that there's no getting out of the life. He saw how the djinn went after Dean and both they and the demons were a threat to Lisa and Ben -- oh, and "I'm not going to leave my brother alone out there." No, I don't buy it. You're right, etheldred, Dean did have good memories of Lisa and Ben. In fact, he initially chose to stay with them rather than hunt with Sam. The extreme dichotomy that has been drawn between the two characters is false. Carver has been ignoring canon in favor of whatever his agenda is and the show is suffering for it.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 08:28
I don't disagree that it seems "off". I haven't yet bought the plot they've shown us for Sam. I'm still hoping there's more to it than what they've shown.... And I will hold that hope all the way to episode 23 if necessary.

(Struggling with patience, holding on to booze and shallow Tshirt shots to keep me going... Thanks, sweetondean. ;-) )

If, at the end of Season 8, it still seems that Carver has forgotten all of what Sam has been through, and it isn't woven in somehow to inform the way he's behaving now, explaining this version of Sam... Then I will absolutely agree that Carver blew it.

Then I will have to decide if I can accept what I feel is a mistake in Sam's characterizatio n well enough to continue to season 9.

Really hoping that when we FINALLY get a glimpse of Sam's life, it'll make sense, and it won't seem like Carver is re-writing history, and ignoring what Sam's been through, and who he's always been.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-20 08:37
Yep, that's exactly where I am right now as well.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-20 12:52
Taking over to the Sam Speculation thread.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-20 08:56
I don't find Sam wanting to leave hunting eventually problematic per se. I think there's a good argument to be made that both of them had reached a point in s7 where they were sticking to hunting as a way of sticking to each other when both of them were more influenced by an inability to imagine anything different than by what was best either for them or for their brother. Sam's conversation with Colt reflected a degree of resignation that I think was not a good thing for Sam. And if each of them coming back from a year of something different involves them having different senses of who they are and what they want, that's fine: I don't think Sam is bound to stay in hunting for Dean's sake. That would be bad for both of them. I do think the show has to address the problem of Sam being seemingly oblivious to any danger he presents for Amelia, but I think the jury is still out enough on what's going on there that I'm willing to wait and see how that will work out.

No, my problem is in the insuperable communications gap this situation is supposedly creating for Sam and Dean, the idea that Sam can't get purgatory or its effect on Dean, and Dean can't get where Sam's coming from or why he might want a different life. It ends with them both being assholes to each other for no good reason. If this is really supposed to be the season of maturity, it would be nice to see the brothers acknowledging that there is actually a lot of common ground in their experiences and using that to build bridges over the remaining differences and make some compromises about what they want and how they construct lives with each other in them.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-20 10:08
Quote:
I don't think Sam is bound to stay in hunting for Dean's sake.
Nor do I, but ultimately I don't think that's why he would. He would do it because that's what he is. He's a hunter. He said it in Southern Comfort when he told Dean, "I'm that hunter" that might ice Benny one day. The dream of a normal life was the dream of a teenager that might have satisfied him if fate hadn’t intervened. But what Sam had with Amelia was a vacation from his real life. The most unconvincing line of the season has been, “I want my time here to count for something.” It would only make sense if Sam didn’t recognize the significance of what he’s been through in the past, all the people he’s saved, the world. His argument against hunting when Dean said that people were dying – people die all the time – was equally unconvincing. That isn’t Sam. That isn’t the man who vanquished a vengeful spirit to save a girl when he was dying in a mental hospital – unless of course, Carver is trying to give us selfish Sam, which – no.

What Dean said to Veritas, something like, I'm not a dad; I'm a killer holds just as true for Sam. These guys are borderline sociopaths. They are deeply fucked up individuals who “keep each other human.” I don't buy that they can just grow up out of their co-dependence because it isn't an issue of maturity. They have deep psychological issues, and no one else can relate to what they've been through but the other. Dean may have ptsd, but it’s not as though he wasn’t an emotional and psychological mess before he went to Purgatory. And Sam may have had his psyche reintegrated, but all that is still in there – all the memories of Cage and Lucifer riding shotgun.

I’m relying here on the assertion that this season is all about POV, and I’m hoping that we haven’t actually gotten Sam’s real POV yet. Otherwise, none of Sam’s story makes much sense given the Sam that has developed over the past seven seasons.

As far as Sam and Dean communicating, it's all too much like S4, and again, I think that ignores character development over the past few seasons. Even last season we have Dean acknowledging that lying to Sam feels wrong, but the first thing he does is lie by omission and I suspect Sam is too despite his apparent brutal honesty. It's as though Carver is pretending that S6-7 never happened.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 10:13
[

What Dean said to Veritas, something like, I'm not a dad; I'm a killer holds just as true for Sam. These guys are borderline sociopaths. They are deeply fucked up individuals who “keep each other human.” I don't buy that they can just grow up out of their co-dependence because it isn't an issue of maturity. They have deep psychological issues, and no one else can relate to what they've been through but the other. .

This is the issue in a nut shell so to speak.
Whether or not either of them ever has a "normal life" out of hunting or not. They are- and always will be - tied to each other by experience. Undeniably and irrevocably tied. (Mature or not).
The show needs to stop trying to tell us they aren't.
etheldred
# etheldred 2012-11-20 10:21
I don't know. I don't think domestic life is less real, or less heroic, than hunting. I didn't like the implication in Sam's "I want my time to count for something" that Dean's choice of hunting DIDN'T count, but it was that aspect of the remark, as a cut against Dean, that bothered me, not the idea that to Sam something else might be ultimately more meaningful than life as a hunter. If someone decides to quit a career as a fireman or an EMT or any other immediate "saving people" type profession and do something different, I don't in the least think it's a foregone conclusion that they've left a more meaningful life for a less meaningful life. There are all kinds of ways of making time count, contributing to the world, creating meaning. Recognizing that is healthy, and choosing one kind of meaning out of guilt or lack of alternatives rather than out of personal commitment to it is never a good thing.

Now, there's a problem in that Supernatural is about hunting, its good saving aspect and its negative making people killers aspect, not about the positive and negative aspects of other ways of life. But I do think it's valuable for the show, and for Sam and Dean within the fiction, to be aware that neither the positive impact nor the negative effect of hunting is an absolute standard or determinant. Sam may and presumably will ultimately choose to hunt, but I don't think he has to feel that he IS a hunter and just live with it. He's been shaped by his experiences, but he's still free to choose who he is.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 10:45
I agree, etheldred. They hunt. It defines what they do, not necessarily who they are.
It really doesn't matter whether either of them gets a normal life. They're both heroes, and what they do matters regardless.
The problem is that the codependency - or bond between them must remain. It is unquestionable. And it seems to me that they're trying to make us question it.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-20 14:48
Quote:
I don't know. I don't think domestic life is less real, or less heroic, than hunting.
I don’t think that’s even the issue, and I never took Sam's comment about wanting his time to count for something as a dig against Dean; although knowing Dean he took it that way. (It's not always about Dean.) What it did was negate everything Sam had done for others including his brother when he hunted and ultimately when he jumped in the pit. It isn't that other ways of life can't be important, but his statement suggests that what he's done in the past didn't count for anything and that doing something ‘normal’ would, which is ridiculous.

Certainly choosing another way of life would be healthier for Sam – and Dean for that matter – but again, I don’t see that as a choice that either of them can ultimately make. Their lives have shaped them. They are what they are, and they are hunters. Sam can choose to do something else, but he can’t choose to be something else. The two of them have switched back and forth on this – one accepting the life of hunter and the other wanting out. It isn’t new. Right now Dean is embracing, and Sam seems to have reset to S1. While it seems healthy, I honestly feel like Sam is just suppressing a huge part of his personality, his past, and his emotions. Ultimately, I don’t I believe it is healthy – but again, these are deeply screwed up individuals, and I don’t know that healthy is on the menu. I’d definitely find the show a lot less interesting if it were.
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-20 13:33
I agree that the conflict feels forced. This season, the plotty stuff is competent and interesting enough, but they have a real tin ear for the emotional side. They made the decision to go with Sam making the shocking and unlikely choice of not looking for Dean, which demands explanation, but six episodes later, we're still confused not only by information that has yet to be revealed, but by the internally contradictory information they've given us. Sam, despite his own history of empathy for monsters, is being set up as unexamined opposition for Dean's newfound friendship for a vampire. Dean himself isn't much better. I have a very hard time believing that he would still hold the Ruby fiasco against his brother, even underneath it all. Sam's sacrifice was too great and his sufferings too horrible, and Dean had a whole year to play out all the terrible possibilities in his head. I also don't buy the invented Purgatory memory. As hard as the life of a hunter is, especially these two hunters, why would Dean feel a need to create new things to feel guilty about when he's already subject to a barrage of real misfortune? The guilt complex isn't even presented as much of a flaw, it's more like a backdoor canonization.

There's a lack of emotional continuity between episodes as well. We're meant to believe there could have been such a tense reveal about Benny on the docks, but that they'd wait until they drove to the next town to fight about it. We have nothing to tell us how the brothers went from the huge throw down of "Southern Comfort" to the rapprochement of "A Little Slice of Kevin." This leaves viewers madly trying to fill in blanks they shouldn't have to and with the sickening feeling that the brotherly bond is done for. It may be "realistic" for the brothers to "mature" towards recognizing that they are different people with different goals, but there's little sign of maturity, and it's a drag to see this Dr. Phil material play out against the backdrop of an action-adventur e series. The "you and me against the world" is very powerful stuff, and it's already well established that they're very different people, which makes them an interesting and formidable team. The devaluation of Sam's experiences, viewpoint, and character evolution in order to turn him into the mouthpiece for the "normal" life threatens to deconstruct his heroism and his role in the show.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 13:44
Quote:


There's a lack of emotional continuity between episodes as well. We're meant to believe there could have been such a tense reveal about Benny on the docks, but that they'd wait until they drove to the next town to fight about it. We have nothing to tell us how the brothers went from the huge throw down of "Southern Comfort" to the rapprochement of "A Little Slice of Kevin." This leaves viewers madly trying to fill in blanks they shouldn't have to and with the sickening feeling that the brotherly bond is done for.
Yes. This really bothers me. I know guys tend to walk away from a fight and treat everything about it as "over", but these cases are just too extreme for me to believe.

Quote:


The "you and me against the world" is very powerful stuff, and it's already well established that they're very different people, which makes them an interesting and formidable team. The devaluation of Sam's experiences, viewpoint, and character evolution in order to turn him into the mouthpiece for the "normal" life threatens to deconstruct his heroism and his role in the show.
Well said.
GeorgiaRose
# GeorgiaRose 2012-11-19 23:38
Thank you, st50. The relationship between the brothers is definitely what got to me about the show and I really enjoy it and want to learn more. The message boards are really interesting and i like all the differerent perspectives and want to learn more.
st50
# st50 2012-11-19 23:42
Quote:
Thank you, st50. The relationship between the brothers is definitely what got to me about the show ....
You're welcome, GeorgiaRose!

And yes, it's ALL about the brothers relationship for me. Absolutely adore them both, although I do lean a bit towards Sam.

I'm looking forward to watching this year unfold, better understanding Sam's year, and analysing it here with everyone, step by (often excruciating) step. ;-)
georgiarose
# georgiarose 2012-11-20 10:24
I didn’t say that Sam can’t understand Dean or hasn’t been through his own things; in fact, I think his past experiences are why he’s being so patient with Dean and why it took him a while to get into a confrontation. At this point, Sam seems to have worked through a lot of what has happened to him and come to some kind of peace with it. What’s rawest with Sam right now is Benny because it’s fresh. Dean hasn’t been out of Purgatory that long and is still dealing with the mental, emotional and physical ramifications of the past year and he’s never been as healthy emotionally as Sam anyway. Does that make more sense? From the flashbacks to when he was a kid we see Dean’s tender heart, his anxiety over doing anything his father didn’t approve of and that John blamed Dean for anything that happened to Sam, even when it was outside of Dean’s control. I’d imagine John took a lot out on Dean any time things did not work out the way he wanted. I’m not saying he didn’t love Dean, but John wasn’t a poster child for emotional health either. Even if Dean was a jerk to Sam sometimes, he also protected Sam from a lot of their dad’s junk, which I think really helped Sam to be healthier.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-20 11:17
Quote:
he also protected Sam from a lot of their dad’s junk,
Sorry,When? I am not remembering any instance. Okay another reason to watch earlier episodes. :-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-11-20 12:38
The only time I remember is AVSC when Dean stole the presents to pretend that John had come by for Christmas and hadn't forgotten them completely. We haven't seen enough of their childhood to say that Dean protected Sam. John protected Sam right up until Sam found out about the hunting in AVSC and then he started shoving guns into Sam's hands and telling him to take care of the monsters in his closet himself. There is little to no indications how Dean fit protecting Sam once Sam was expected to become a hunter. I'm not saying he didn't, I'm just saying we don't have any evidence either way.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-11-20 12:59
Quote:
I'm just saying we don't have any evidence either way.
I agree
RMF
# RMF 2012-11-20 11:46
Quote:
I didn’t say that Sam can’t understand Dean or hasn’t been through his own things; in fact, I think his past experiences are why he’s being so patient with Dean and why it took him a while to get into a confrontation. At this point, Sam seems to have worked through a lot of what has happened to him and come to some kind of peace with it. What’s rawest with Sam right now is Benny because it’s fresh. Dean hasn’t been out of Purgatory that long and is still dealing with the mental, emotional and physical ramifications of the past year and he’s never been as healthy emotionally as Sam anyway. Does that make more sense?
I'd make the same response. Especially if Sam has had time to process and recover from his own experiences, he would know exactly where Dean is coming from. It would be a bit like a retired soldier counseling a current enlistee. Some time in civilian life would not eliminate his knowledge of what he went through as he tried to grapple with his own traumatic experiences, and he would see it reflected in others.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 12:09
I can agree that Sam could and should relate, and that he's had some time to process and recover... I just don't think he's done dealing with it.

The problem I see is that what he's recovering from - all the various years of the hunt, Ruby, destiny, Lucifer, the cage, soullessness, the breakdown with hallucinations, and then especially having Dean be his rock, his "stone number one" and then just vanished, - has left Sam with his own brand of PTSD...

The disconnect, the weird unemotional, almost uncaring person that doesn't seem to be at all Sam (the bigger reason for the delay in confrontation - rather than being patient with Dean - he's just not quite SAM) .

He seems more to be trying to avoid caring about Dean, about Kevin, about demons in general. But he can't quite do it. We've seen in several episodes, especially in the premier and in this one, where Sam is trying to maintain an almost physical hold on Dean whenever there is a threat.. Tucking himself in behind him, reaching out his hands toward Dean ...

I do think Sam recognizes some of what Dean is processing, based on the concern he showed in this episode, but he's still dealing with his own issues, so he isn't quite able to help Dean process his own.....

Hopefully we'll see more of both.
Lia
# Lia 2012-11-20 15:06
Quote:
He seems more to be trying to avoid caring about Dean, about Kevin, about demons in general. But he can't quite do it.
I think we may find that this is the crux of everything that's going on with Sam. We all know what Sam has turned into in the past when Dean was gone, and I wonder if what happened this time was Sam running from that -- from that sort psychopathic hunter he became in the past. He fears that still. If he returns to hunting with Dean, he has to know that there's a good chance that he will be right back in that position again -- seeing his brother killed and himself bereft again. It may seem -- and I don't think this is conscious on Sam's part -- easier/safer to remain semi-detached emotionally. As you point out, the only time he appeared really connected in the first few eps of the season was during a fight when he though Dean was in danger. It all came to head in Blood Brother when he raced frantically to help Dean only to find him with a vampire friend. I think that Sam's desire to kill Benny has more to do with Benny being a threat to Dean than it does with Amy. The one time Sam never hesitates to kill is when Dean is in danger. I don't think his desire to 'ice' Benny is rational at all.

I don't think though that Sam can remain disconnected from Dean, and we saw that in the blow up in Southern Comfort and then with the way he responded in 8.07 when Dean couldn't sleep and confided that he'd seen Cas. I think and hope that we're seeing a slow thawing between them.

Honestly, I don't know that either of them will ever heal from what they've been through. They may process it. They may learn to deal with it, but they'll always be the walking wounded.
st50
# st50 2012-11-20 15:49
Quote:


.... they'll always be the walking wounded.
And sadly, this is the way I like them. (Don't even want to think about what that says about me. :-* )

(And I agree with the rest of your comment)
Trish
# Trish 2012-11-27 22:49
Finally I have time to catch up on reviews...just in time for the next ep! I adored this ep as well, anyone who was anyone was in it just about. I, like you, was a little disappointed the ending from the week before was so turned around in this ep, all of a sudden it was caring and sharing time, not bitching and rage. That was weird to me. Hopefully we'll get some sort of resolution as to why it changed so quickly. But so much gore and violence and pretty people and all the best of SPN was in this. Just fabulous! Thanks Amy