So, I am just going to apologize in advance to everyone for the probable love-fest this review is going to be because I LOVED this episode. I thought the pacing was fantastic, the dialogue was great, and it had lots of things that I love: BAMF Castiel, angsty Dean, supportive Sam, evil Crowley, Impala porn, mytharc progress, a little mystery, and great secondary characters. Plus some gruesome horror! Stir it all up and that was one fantastic hour. I didn't want it to end! I'm just really happy to have Cass back.
But never fear! I have been chatting with one of our writers, Bookdal, and she and I (mostly her with me in support) have tossed around some great theories about where the show is headed now that we got some more information in this episode. And with two weeks before the next episode (boo!) we will have plenty of time to discuss these theories (yay!) I'm going to talk about three bigger theories and then bullet point the rest of the love.
Before I release you to read and comment, I want to remind everyone that this is a free commenting space. That means all topics are welcome and will not be moved to another thread if we get off topic. HOWEVER, there are still rules we ask you to follow when commenting, and they can be found here. Please read them if you haven't already. Basically, be respectful in the comments section, of each other, of me, and of anyone affiliated with the show. We love to hear your opinions, but only in a constructive and respectful manner. Thanks in advance for your cooperation! And here we go!
Metatron's Tablets
Here's one way the arc for the next few seasons could go. Each season has a goal described by a tablet. This year, it's closing the gates of Hell. Next season, it could be sealing Purgatory so nothing can get out. Because we know monsters have gotten out of Purgatory, not just humans like Dean. So what other tablets do you think are out there? Why do you think Metatron left that note on this tablet saying he was done? I have this amusing image in my head of God!Chuck all drunk and trying to tell Metatron what to write, and Metatron finally has enough and is like, "I am DONE with this shit." But instead of saying it, he writes it down in Enochian and inscribes it on a tablet because he's very passive-aggressive for an angel.
CIAngel
Here's a theory about why the angels are spying on Sam and Dean via Castiel: they don't want the gates of Hell to be closed. There's probably a huge catch to closing the gates anyway, one that we haven't heard of yet. But if the gates to Hell are closed, I'm guessing it means no one could get out or IN. So where would all those evil people go when they die? Purgatory is for monsters. They'd end up in heaven if they can't get to hell. And I'm betting heaven doesn't want them. They know that Sam and Dean won't cooperate, so they're using Castiel to get close and monitor the progress the boys are making. And when they get too close to making some serious progress, the angels will swoop down and mess things up.
The Memory Problem
One of the biggest themes of the episode tonight was memory. Dean created a new memory of what happened when he and Castiel tried to get out of Purgatory because he couldn't accept what really happened. He couldn't accept that it wasn't his fault that Cass didn't get out, which is so typically Dean, that he created a scenario where it WAS his fault. Which...oh, Dean. That's so horrible.
Then we have Castiel, whose memory is being manipulated on purpose by a group of secretive angels. You know they're really secretive when Godstiel didn't even know about them. Why did they wipe his memory of their attack on Purgatory and Castiel's subsequent rescue? What do they need Sam and Dean for this time, and what do they think Castiel can accomplish that they can't? Probably a lot because Sam and Dean aren't exactly known for following angel orders. How many times has Castiel been in that room reporting already? The way he said "why am I telling you this?" sure made it seem like he doesn't have a choice in the matter.
Both of these examples set up the problem of a fallable memory and memory manipulation. Is this what's happening to Sam? In the season premiere, there was someone standing outside Sam's place when he left to meet Dean at the cabin. What if it was Naomi? Maybe she and her other CIAngels called Sam so he would meet Dean at the cabin. Maybe the angels are manipulating Sam, too. But why, you might ask? Well, I will tell you in my Theory of the Week!
Theory of the Week
I was doing a little reading up on Metatron via Wikipedia, and they have a list of alternate names for Metatron, other things he's been called before. And one of them caught my eye: Michael II. What if this is Apocalypse 2.0? I know, I know, but hear me out! The Apocalypse of season 5 was supposed to be the end game for the show, but it got renewed, so plans changed. But what if it's the end game again, and it's going to play out over the next few seasons? But Lucifer and Michael are locked up, so they can't do it. Maybe Apocalypse 2.0 would need two other archangels to fill the roles. Metatron could step in for Michael, and I'm guessing Azrael could step in for Lucifer. Azrael is the archangel of death in some cultures, so he would work.
All right, so we've got Metatron and Azrael, but they need vessels. Cue Sam and Dean. So, the angels want Dean to say yes to Metatron, and they want Sam to say yes to Azrael. But they know the direct route didn't work last time, so they're trying stealth this time. They're using Castiel as a sleeper agent because they know that Sam and especially Dean will fight for Castiel. He's their friend, of course they will. So they're manipulating Castiel, but just spying for all we know right now.
Here's how I think they're manipulating Sam: they know he's most vulnerable away from Dean, so they get Sam back together with Dean because it would be suspicious if Dean was out of Purgatory and Sam didn't reunite with him. But then the angels make Sam believe he wants to be with Amelia more than he wants to be hunting with Dean. They're manipulating Sam into wanting to leave. Sam seems disconnected this season, and if he's being manipulated, maybe that's why. He may not remember, but perhaps his subconscious is fighting back, so it makes him seem muted. And once Sam is back with Amelia, they make him forget all about Dean. Then they remove Amelia from the equation, and Sam is primed to say yes to Azrael. Dean's more vulnerable without Sam, too, so the angels try to use Cass to make Dean say yes to Metatron. Then Metatron and Azrael fight it out and the Apocalypse.
Of course, Sam and Dean are going to fight back and try and avert the whole thing again, but this is what I think the angels are planning.
Side theory: is Crowley Azrael? King of hell, but also maybe archangel?
Okay, enough speculating and theorizing. Time for bullet points!
- Nice use of The Animals! "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" is a great song. Good to hear some more classic rock.
- Maybe what scares me has changed now that I have a 13-month-old, but the kid getting taken to hell from preschool was horrible! That was so scary!
- I love it when the show makes the boys smart, and the exorcism into the phone disguised as notes in code was super smart! I loved that.
- I have to say, Dean actually talking about his feelings all episode was so refreshing. And Sam trying to help him through it was great because he knows what Dean's going through. He hallucinated Jess, too.
- Castiel knew all along that he wasn't going through that portal, so him saying thank you to Dean for everything was his way of saying goodbye.
- Any significance to the fact that Castiel came to in Illinois? Maybe near Pontiac?
- How great was Delta the witch? Best witch ever? I think yes. She was super fun. And I loooooove that Mrs. Tran found her on Craigslist, ha.
- Cass watching TV and missing it. Aw. The remote he had was hilarious, too.
- More Leviathan bombs! Those are really cool.
- You know, I love Crowley. I know he's a demon, but I can't help but love that magnificent bastard. But it's nice to be reminded sometimes that yes, he is a DEMON, and he's not nice, no matter how fun he is and how much I love Mark Sheppard. He cut off Kevin's finger! Literally "A Little Slice of Kevin."
- And after the finger cutting, there was a sign in the warehouse that said "Keep Fingers Clear." Very clever, show. Very clever.
- Sam made a demon bomb!
- Demon silhouette flash = angel wing burn.
- Glowy angel eyes!
- Where did Crowley get the angel blade from? I'm guessing Meg since she had one and Crowley kidnapped her, but did I miss something else that happened where he got one of his own?
- Wow, the preview for the next episode looked hilarious. Cannot wait for that one!
Comments
Cass is back!!! I love that angel! Those glowing eyes were awesome! But I think maybe he's already being possessed or controlled. That seemed to even freak Crowley out.
Dean... how I love you. *sighs* He's been so ruthless this season, like PTS disorder. I feel like Sam is trying to figure it out and assumes its because of Purgatory, but I think it's something more. Dean and Sam just aren't connecting the way they did in the past. It's weird and definitely suspect.
When the little boy was sent to hell and was hiding, the mom in me was yelling for these adults to go to him and hug him! I was pissed they didn't help him. Lol
That witch was great. Loved that she tricked Kevin's mom. Now she realizes she can't be super mom and do this on her own. Kevin's getting tougher with every episode, and I think they'll seal jells gates, but Kevin dies in the end. Didn't they say one prophet cannot live while another lives? I can't quite recall.
Great episode!
Loved, loved this episode. I thought it was the best so far.
Downside: no more on Sam. I am one who has faith it will come though.
Upsides: so many. Mysteries, mayhem, betrayal, and great visual effects. The boys talked some, and Sam touched Dean to comfort him. Sam seemed more himself and Dean seemed less intense and willing to share. It is as if the big spectre rant and the ending scene with Sam last week has relieved some of the built up pressure between them. Oh, no doubt it will be revisited but it was nice. Cass is back.
Lots of smart snappy lines. Waiting for more of Sam's story but IMO this one was an A for me.
I have been thinking that the angels would not want Hell closed, then Michael and Lucifer would never be freed. But now something greater may be happening with Naomi's plans and memory wipes. Oh how I Hope that's Sam' s reason for being so disconnected. And who was watching him in episode one?
-- did she really exist for Sam or was his time with her an angelic manipulation? I meant, did the angels hologrammed a real human and implanted her in Sam's memories?
-- is Amelia an, well, undercover angel? I always get this sneaky feeling about the girl
-- if Amelia is an undercover angel, who's side does she really belong to?
WOULDN'T IT BE NICE that, after all the angelic manipulation, either or both Metatron and Azrael refuse to play along with Apocalypse 2 scenario?
DIDN'T THE PRODUCERS SAY in a convention that Richard SPeight will be back? As what, Gabriel? Did he really die or did the Great Creator resurrected him for doing the right thing in Apocalypse 1? Could he be Crowley now (well, Mark said to watch for the finger-snapping in S7)
I WISH BOBBY IS BACK. Not a replacement for Garth -- he is just fine as the next Bobby. But Bobby as the new Weapons Keeper of Heaven. Wouldn't it be great -- when things get bad for Our Boys, Bad Ass Angel Bobby comes blazing back with his group of rogue angels to fight the CIA Angels?
I think Amelia is real, but maybe their relationship ended after one night and Sam's being manipulated into thinking it lasted longer, was more meaningful.
There was one moment though, in the hotel when Cas first returns when it seemed like Cas and Sam were doing the eye thing... the silent communication thing; Cas was telling Dean that he was fighting Leviathan and the next thing he knew he was at the side of the road in Illinois. Dean doesn't seem convinced by Cas's story. Cas then looks over at Sam, who very subtly shakes his head 'no.' Maybe I am reading more into this then was actually there, and there was barely anything there, but it seemed like it could have been a moment of "there's something else going on here." Then Cas says "I'm dirty." This came across as an odd moment. He seemed to be implying more than he was actually saying.
The whole Dean memory issue regarding Cas getting out of purgatory seems strange to me too. Was Cas getting Dean to remember things accurately, or did he in fact change the memory at that point? Dean says that he doesn't want to carry around the guilt of having failed Cas too like he had failed so many others... so why would Dean CREATE a memory that does exactly that if that isn't what really happened? That whole moment seemed strange to me too. I understand that Dean has an overactive sense of responsibility, but I'm not so sure that I like the idea that Dean is now so intent on being blamed for everything that he is now deluding himself so completely that he can't even remember accurately. I wonder if there is something more going on here as well. I am curious to see where they are going with this! One thing I would like to NOT see again though. I really, really, REALLY don't want this season to be about how Dean is betrayed by those he loves AGAIN. I have it with that plot line. Between those people who have ACTUALLY betrayed Dean and those he feels have betrayed him, Dean can barely trust anyone anymore, even his own brother. I'd like to see Dean gain a little faith back in those he loves rather than be slammed down again.
Having them all ok this week doesnt dispel last week . And we know it will all rear its ugly head again once Benny reappears.
1) the only person who has, or ever needs to, forgive Sam for anything he has done is Sam. And he has done that - good for him, he deserves it, he was in Hell for 180 years voluntarily. Sam is awesome and wonderful.
2) The rest of the episode was loads of fun. Castiel's return was wonderful.
3) Maybe Dean can get his head straight now? Go back to being funny and caring.
4) Maybe Ardeospina is right about Sam? Maybe podSam is a short term creation.
Anyone with me?
(Now, a shirtless scene would really help right about now, yes?)
*pout* Also hugs (though probably not at the same time, might get misinterpreted)
I'm up for just about anybody hugging anybody else. Preferably shirtless.
(Told ya, my new motto is shallow=happy, until the boys are reunited properly, and Sam's reasoning have been shown.)
I miss the old days when Dean and Sam would just have to hug or touch each other to make sure the other was all right after encounters with nasties. Also, I think that, in earlier seasons, they were just physically looser and more relaxed in each others company. The Winchester brothers are very short on the hugging this last number of years, their reluctance to hug or touch makes my repressed family look positively hippy-like lol.
I thought it was interesting, actually, the infamous Sam being in a t-shirt in bed with Amelia last episode. It seems like even being ready to connect with someone again, physically and emotionally, Sam is still not entirely at ease with intimacy.
Dean's had a fair bit fewer connections, too. I bet you're on to something.
Sad.
st50, your analysis makes sense too. I've got stuff to think about now that I'm re-watching from S1.
If Ardeosprina is correct in her theory about Sam, it explains everything about Sam this season. And quite frankly if that alone is correct, it fixes every problem I've had with this season so far. Changes every episode to pretty much a 10. (well except Bitten, but that seems to be a matter of taste). I'm going to rewatch the episodes with this in mind and see if it continues to fit. But I'm completely excited!
I am going to watch again later today - I have found my second watch of all the eps have made me enjoy each of them way more!
Yay for new theories!
This shows such disrespect to a main character. When a secondary character gets the freedom to behave in any way, no matter how despicable then it "isn't his fault" from the get go. I have no reason to think Cas will be despicable, but if he is he's already absolved while Sam is stuck with worst brother ever and Benny's a better brother and Cas is a better brother.
Finally, Sam has been manipulated by angels and demons his entire life. It is nothing new and Sam NEVER gets cut a break by fans or EVEN by Dean for being manipulated, while Cas gets off scottfree I did kind of hope that Sam's actions were human for once, because Dean gets ALL the human emotions, even when he's getting the mytharc. I was truly hoping for a breakdown because a least then Sam's sacrifice would have actually affected HIM instead of Castiel and Dean who was so hurt to lose his brother and it was ALL SAM'S fault according to Dean last week, while Sam had no repercussions at all.
So no, this does not make me happy. But Sam and his fans are irrelevant. And the ratings support that. So Sam gets no story and I'm almost done.
If she's right, this doesn't make him bad in anyway. Yes, it makes it a little frustrating that they are taking risks with Sam's character that they never take with Dean's but I'M good with it if it makes for a great story. As long as in the end we actually DO find out more about Sam and what he went through and get inside his head more. I really loved S4, but I do think they need to do better about showing Sam's POV this time, after the mystery is revealed (I'm just assuming a mystery until I find out otherwise).
This is why Soulless Sam worked for some people and didn't work for others. Because Sam was so "unlike" himself, I had no problems sitting back and enjoying the ride. It helped that I found each and every episode in the first half of S6 to be highly entertaining. I could have watched SS all season long. He entertained me that much. We had Dean questioning what was wrong w/Sam right along w/us. Sam was sleeping w/prostitutes. He was letting Dean get vamped and smiling. He was watching a kid be tortured and enjoying it. It was pretty obvious something was wrong w/Sam. I enjoyed that ride.
Here, I don't know what to attribute to Sam's OCC behavior. Does the new showrunner truly understand Sam? Has he reset the characters? Is he experimenting w/Sam? Is there a twist planned? Who knows.
I, personally, am NOT enjoying this journey to the truth. The show is not fun to watch. The brothers are not fun. I liked to watch SS and Dean interact. This episode was the closest to the brothers being like the "brothers" since the second half of S6 or HCW.
Also, since I rewatch my favorite shows (like a lot-while I'm cleaning house, doing bills, etc) it ends of mattering more to me if something doesn't fit at the end of the season than in the middle, because then I don't enjoy it on the rewatch. But if I can catch stuff that fits on the rewatch that I missed the first time because I didn't have all the info I'm in heaven.
But beyond that. Well, it's no secret that I am not hugely positive about many aspects of Sam's storyline this year, but I think if this did pan out it would destroy as much as it saved. The idea that Sam has come to a new perception of who he is and what he wants, the idea that Sam has formed a bond with a new person and been able to work through some things in that relationship, the idea that, weak though I find the grounds for Sam assuming Dean's death to be, it WAS important to see Sam able to move on from a loss constructively. If most of what we've seen of Sam's memories and feelings is angelic manipulation, then we go from having stuff on Sam that may not appeal to my own tastes or wishes for where the narrative should go, and that I think is rather a measly portion of character information, to having NOTHING on Sam. Not that I'm averse to having some plotty stuff with Sam's story, and I have speculated that the mysterious watcher is related to Naomi, but I don't think I'd want the whole Amelia thing or Sam's desire for a different kind of life to be essentially illusions that had nothing to do with Sam.
But the angels want Sam and Dean at odds, so they wipe the memory of this. Screwing with Sam's mental state, he races frantically down the highway, in a confused state and hits a dog.
That scene with the dog happens and maybe some of the other scenes. But if Sam starts looking again they change things or somehow mess with his memory to make him think he hasn't. So part or all of those scene could be true, manipulated to be more idyllic than they were or they could just show an inner longing for a simpler life. But either way, we have info on Sam-not that we don't need more. But Sam could have been looking for Dean the whole time he was with Amelia and those parts of his memory were erased.
We do have some evidence of this. Cas being forced to talk and then not remembering talking to them. Cas not remembering how he got out. Dean's memory might have also been manipulated.
And Sam's FB's have also had a dreamlike quality to them, especially the birthday cake scene. And he has seemed a little disconnected and out of it. What if he is fuzzy because of what they did to him and it's causing a disconnect in the present.
I am not saying this is what happened or even close. BUT I do think there is enough hints in this last episode to indicate this is something more than fanwank.
If Sam were only manipulated at one, or a few points, to forget previous events then there is no reason why a type of angelic hypnotism shouldn't allow him to accept that he can't find Dean and shouldn't worry about it.
I know how terrible the hypnotism idea sounds
Whether the angels would have continued to manipulate him and Amelia, I don't know. I really don't see Amelia as a plant so possibly they did, to make Sam want to stay - as Dean might have in the Djinn episode - why would he want to escape if everything was perfect?
What blows Ardeospinas argument out of the water I guess is Kevin. Because Sam clearly did throw away the phones and did not find Kevin - though the angels could have manipulated that too .... my, that back-story would have to be an entire episode I would think!
Heh, the more I think about A's theory, the less likely it seems...
Throwing away his phones could definitely be an angel order. Or maybe it's a direct result of the angels making him think he wanted out, made him think he didn't want to have anything to do with hunting.
OR, since Dean ended up listening to the voicemails, maybe he kept them with him but just never remembered that he listened to the messages. Angel memory wipe?
Where did Dean find his own phones? Why didn't Sam throw those away? Questions, questions....
So I really WANT for Sam to have had a nice normal breakdown. He has lost so much, even though Dean's reactions to his losses are what we see, not Sam's. Sam deserves to behave like an actual human being with feelings for once, instead of the most stable person in the world who never has a reaction to grief or pain or well anything. Plus Sam has been manipulated from before he was born by demons and angels. I would like to see him uninfluenced. But we are probably going to get angel manipulation that took away any despair or anger or weakness that Sam felt when Dean disappeared and because of that manipulation he will be fine, yet again and remain an emotional eunuch.
I have a theory that Sam thought she was asleep but the truth is she reported to this shadowy figure outside her house. Could be an angel offering her a deal to rescue her husband if she did what they said.
Personally I'd like to have a reason behind Sam's action. I'd like it that there is a very crucial and important reason behind Sam's choice of Not looking for Dean. And this reason comes out of Sam's conscious mind.
The one more likely have memory alteration is Dean. Dean's perception is skewed this episode. This could be a trend as Dean's escape out of Purgatory is also has been planned by Naomi.
On the bright side, Castiel is all shiny clean and never has to answer for anything he did ever again and Benny is a huggable vampire who was more human than Sam even before Purgatory, so Dean will have lots of wonderful brothers so he can finally dump that loser Sam and have a good life without him. And YES, IMHO this is exactly the message the show is giving us, because heck Sam deserves to be punished and Dean, Castiel and Benny deserve to be venerated. After all, Sam is an abomination.
In season 4 he was trying to do the right thing. He thought he was doing the right thing. I can't lay blame on him for that. I don't blame him for being soulless, that was in no way his fault and I expect I'll forgive him for his choices in this season too, if indeed forgiveness is even required.
He will never be beyond forgiveness in my eyes, because he's Sam and he's a good and beautiful human being, a flawed hero who only ever tries to do what's right.
So please know that there are those of us that have, do and always will forgive Sam.
As I understand it there isn't much Dean-hate.
Otherwise apparently IMDB is pretty bad?
The guy over at TV without Pity who reviewed with page after page of vitriol about everything to do with the show at least insulted everybody even-handedly and has been replaced (yay) and I assume has been sent to a home for the bewildered to recover. The new reviewer is ok I guess.
The guys (and I do mean guys) over at After Elton seem to be one track minded Dean / Destiel and are rude about Sam but I suspect that doesn't have a whole lot to do with the show itself...
I wouldn't venture out into it if I were you, I sincerely doubt that the shows PTB read what they say anyway.
Hate-watching TV shows (yes that is an actual thing) is the new form of entertainment for people with nothing better to do.
In conclusion: people are weird
I feel like since he's been consistently written as slightly off kilter, that it's leading to something interesting, and I am looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.
Regarding Dean's memories about Cas, I originally did think that it was his exaggerated since of responsibility, which surprised after his words in the premiere. Now I think it could also go either way. If memories are being manipulated than it could be his or it could be Cas'. But his seem more likely only because said he never had any intention of leaving Purgatory.
*runs away giggling*
edits to add - just realised that perhaps the word 'randy' isn't as funny or potentially rude for folks from North America
Oh, show. Hee.
It was nice to see Dean opening up and Sam being supportive. I realize Sam was a secondary player in this episode, but it didn't bother me too much, because I'm sure the time will come when we get the truth about what happened to him. And we got all those great Purgatory flashbacks, Castiel's blue flashing eyes & the angel wings. It was nice to see Crowley scared of the power emanating from our little angel.
The next episode looks to be hilarious. Dean with the gun that literally goes BANG!
-Did anyone giggle at the prophet with the Johnny Bravo haircut?
-I like the weird peace between Sam and Dean in this episode following last week’s blowout. It’s typical sibling behavior in my house- my brother and I get into roaring fights, and then we just…bury it. Oh, and hullo Supportive Sam. I continue to love you, but thought the whole “You did everything you could, Dean†was weird. How much has Dean told Sam? More than we’ve seen, apparently. Maybe that’s what they implied in Bitten.
-Our wayward angel is back! *Happy Dance*
-Oh, look. They actually mentioned Chuck. I literally said ‘thank you’ to the TV.
-New things are happening: more tablets (I always knew there would be), more stuff on Metatron, demon-bombs, CIA angels (love the term, Ardeospina!), and most importantly- fallible memory. That could mean a HECK LOT for both Dean and Sam. I’m especially starting to wonder about Sam’s memories now. You know what would be cool? If his whole year of memories were invented by the CIA angels. Or if Amelia is an undercover angel. But then Sam is supposed to have a human ARC this season, so maybe that’s far-fetched. Sigh.
-If the angels are against the hell-gates-clos ing and if they are manipulating Sam the way they’re manipulating Cass, then his whole free-will speech in episode 1 will make more sense to me.
-By the way, who are the “They†who told Benny where to find the portal? The CIA angels again?
-That exorcism spell is in so much style and variety this season. First, it’s in reverse. Now it’s code.
-As much as I love the idea of an apocalypse 2.0, I don’t want that to happen. I don’t want Sam and Dean to be vessels again.
-I actually thought something had happened to my downloaded episode when Sam cut off mid sentence and Cas showed up at the office.
- Crowley was SCARY in this episode. Finally. He exploded a guy and cut off Kevin’s finger, and we’re finally seeing more bad-guy and less sassy one-liners. Though he was also amusing.
-BTW, why is there two weeks before the next episode?
I'm curious about who the "they" are that told Benny about the portal, too. I hope we're not done with the Purgatory FBs so we can find out.
Scary Crowley is an awesome Crowley. It's good to be reminded every now and again that he is a DEMON and not very nice.
If Crowley is something other than a regular demon, I'm sure he would cover it up. So claiming he was Fergus McLeod and tricking Fergus's son into believing that Crowley was Fergus when he really wasn't makes sense to me.
Quote:I think he did the same thing Dean did when Crowley took Lisa and Ben - tortured demon after demon until they 'fessed up to something useful. One demon rats out another until you get the intel. No way to say for sure, of course. But that method seems par for course.
Quote:Well, it wasn't just the bait-and-switch. When they actually found Crowley's real bones in 'Weekend at Bobby's', Crowley was extremely concerned about protecting them. So concerned, in fact, that he gave back Bobby's soul. So there must be some truth to the canon that you can destroy a demon by burning its bones.
Quote:Interesting. I agree. Never thought of that before. If you can find the bones and kill the demon, they should do that.
Anyone can wield an angel knife and kill/maim with it. The point is that it is an effective weapon against angels. Sam and Dean have used those knives before to fight angels. Nothing special there. My question though, is when did Crowley ever explode someone with the snap of his fingers? In this episode he snapped his fingers to send the witch back to wherever she came from - he didn't explode her. And when he tortured the "prophets" around the table it was different, IMO, than when the archangels snap the fingers and explode someone. It was more like he did the demon-grabbing- and-squeezing-y our-insides-unt il-they-burst thing. Maybe I'm missing something?
I've given up all hope for a story for Sam. He hit a dog and met a girl and we get to see that Cas and Benny are Dean's real brothers and Sam is worth nothing.
I don't want the Apocalypse 2 either, but hey! This time they can have Sam say yes because he is a weak horrible person. That will work.
I'm still hopeful because I am thinking as a writer would. But I'm also prepared to be really bummed at the end of this season, because I'm not sure if SPN's writing team is thinking as writers should. Still, fingers crossed.
Not sure if it is relevant but it has been bugging me since that episode and figured I would throw it out there to help with people's theories.
Is the Purgatory flashbacks over? If so, I'm really sorely disappointed. If this is all there is to Dean's guilt, it just doesn't hit me emotionally at all.
None of that makes sense to me.
Also, not so interested in the Trans, and hope they don't reappear for a very long time. Or ever, really.
But onwards, toward the unalloyed goodness of the episode! Every moment between Dean and Castiel was gold. Every glance between the characters, the caring they showed each other, the fact that Castiel *gets* Dean, in a manner that family apparently doesn't - pure awesome sauce. More, please. Lots more. And feel free to add Benny to the mix. The bickering would be great, as would Dean's confusion and annoyance over it.
Also, Amanda Tapping did an excellent job with her brief appearance. I want Dean to shiv her at the soonest available opportunity, but she was great, and I'm looking forward to her causing more trouble. Before Dean kills her. Because I get a Big Bad vibe from her. So Dean needs to kill Crowley, find out Naomi is screwing with Castiel and move her to the top of his To Do List.
Next week looks like filler, which I find annoying since this episode actually progressed things. I can't say I enjoy the stop-start mentality. Maybe if there were several episodes in a row that progressed, and then we had a filler/stand-al one? But this one episode on/one episode off thing is just not working out for me. It makes everything too choppy and makes it seem that there isn't an overall plan for the season.
Although I do agree.
But I do think after a big blow there is often a calm before the next storm.
Quote:I agree with multiple personality disorder because S6E22 showed that Sam has split himself into 3 in his mind to be able to cope with trauma. Losing Dean could be another trauma and Sam's mind revert to its old way of coping.
A little off-topic but she sure has a lot of convention choices now!!
In this case, it was the fact Dean and Cas are glorified in such a kickass storyline, while Sam is vilified in a tiresome soap opera. I love the way Dean and Cas are being written, but it just served to highlight how badly Sam is being written.
Even if it's true that Sam's memory is being manipulated by the CIAngels (I LOVE the theory and Chuck knows, I hope you're right) then there should've been clues by now, a trail of breadcrumbs I could follow, so I'm going "I can't wait to see where this leads!" instead of "I have completely lost faith this is leading somewhere. They have assassinated Sam's character, because there will be no good reason for his actions."
With Soulless!Sam, they gave us clear indicators he wasn't himself very early on, the reveal he was soulless came in episode 6, and his soul was restored in episode 11. And it was interesting to explore how Sam would act without a soul, and he was part of the main story and not shunted off to the side in a tiresome soap opera. And even at that, some people stopped watching the show because they believed Sera, a new showrunner who hadn't earned the fans' trust yet, didn't know how to write Sam. And I think Carver is repeating that mistake but to an even greater degree because unlike Sera he is dragging it out.
They're just moving waaaaay too slowly, if they are in fact going somewhere with it. How am I supposed to believe it's going somewhere if it isn't moving? Dean had done absolutely nothing wrong, and yet they wrote him a great story where he feels guilty and expresses remorse and gets the absolution of finding out it was Cas who pulled back, while there has been basically zero progress on Sam leaving Dean for dead. (I want to make it absolutely clear I could not be more bi-bro, and this isn't a "Dean always gets better storylines than Sam" kind of thing, not in the slightest. I've always loved Sam's storylines, and Dean's too. I'm just contrasting the two to illustrate the lack of progress on Sam's storyline.)
And if there is something supernatural going on, they have gone too far in obfuscating it, outright telling us there is nothing supernatural going on. How am I supposed to have faith there is something supernatural going on if they're outright saying there isn't? In order to believe the angel theory is true, then I have to believe Carver and Singer are full-on lying to us, and not in a fun harmless "I'm doing a Yeti movie" kind of way.
And the thing that most threw me for a loop is that someone here had showed me the Carver quote that basically said, Dean is piling on Sam right now, but soon the shoe will be on the other foot. I found another quote by Singer that says the same thing: Dean is "keeping a secret about how he got out, and who he got out with...And the fact that he’s being judgemental of him is probably not all that fair to Sam, given what Dean’s not saying."
I thought for sure they meant Dean deserted Cas in Purgatory, as the only thing that would be comparable to Sam deserting Dean. But obviously they mean befriending a vampire and not telling Sam about it for three episodes. But the Winchesters do that before breakfast. They've trusted monsters and kept secrets plenty of times. And the fact they equate something so mudane with Sam leaving Dean for dead really makes me worry they don't realize the impact of Sam leaving Dean for dead, and thus don't feel the need to justify, fix, or redeem it.
It's weird timing I got to the point of needing to stop watching the show just when they finally gave us a truly awesome episode, Sam was finally acting more in character, it finally looks like we'll be getting a funny one next time, and, most importantly, with the CIAngels there is finally a theory about Sam that I can get behind.
But I was hanging to the show by a thread and this is just where my spool ran out. I went into it last night thinking, if I can enjoy this episode and not come out of it upset all over again, I'll keep watching. But it did make me upset, and life is too short to keep watching a TV show that makes you upset. I have too much to deal with in real life to stick with a show that leaves me angry and frustrated for an entire season without even knowing if there will be a good reason in the end. So since the writers won't give me any indication there is a good reason, I'm going to wait for my friend to let me know before I start watching again.
Meanwhile, a great review Ardeospina (and up so quickly!) I hope to be able to feel all the awesome stuff again too at some point in the future.
Hope you'll feel able to be back soon.
I'm still relying on hope that there will be some greater story for Sam here. Much as I love Dean and Cas, it's gotta be about Dean and Sam.
'See' you back here soon!
Actually, this more than anything gives me hope. At the time, it confirmed my belief that there was something going on. But it ws such a blink-and-you-m issed-it moment, and it was seven long episodes ago, that it had faded out from my consciousness.
And I think there would've been a very simple fix to the problem I was just describing above of not giving us any indications something was going on. All they had to do was show a figure shadowing Sam a few times in the past six episodes. If they were willing to drop that clue in the premiere, why not do it a couple more times so it sticks? Then I would've had fun all this time speculating "Who is following Sam? Why? Did they do something to him to make him desert Dean? Are they responsible for Dog and Amelia?" Instead of worrying all this time that Sam's character is being assassinated, and being bored by Sam's flashbacks because nothing is going on.
They may be going for a big reveal, but then in this case that big reveal should've been WHAT is going on, and not THAT something is going on. If you go to great length to make people believe nothing is going on, to the point of baldfaced lying in interviews that nothing is going on, then you can't blame them for believing that nothing is going on, and thus believing the only alternative, that you have written one brother leaving the other for dead for no good reason, and being upset by that.
But if it turns out there is a good story behind it, like the CIAngels manipulating Sam to some mysterious sinister purpose, then I will be very happy to start watching again. It won't be the first time a good story got lost in the telling of it. It's the betrayal of Sam's character and the brotherly bond and what the show stands for that I can't live with. But if that turns out to not be the case, then I will be a happy fan once again.
Here, Sam just seems wildly OOC. There doesn't seem to be anything else going on w/him.
As far as the quotes from the producers, they could be lying. Every writer or show runner I ever seen interview talks about spoilers ruining storylines before they even have chance to develop. My guess is that they are playing word games, such as saying Sam didn't look then finding out he didn't need to look because he was in Purgatory.
I didn't watch any spoilery interviews this summer and I think I was better off for it. I been hit and miss since than (worry was making me impatient) but I think I regained enough trust to stop again. And just see how this plays out.
I agree w/Mickey in that there could be better, more clear clues IF that's where the story is headed.
Quote:Penny Jaime, you are so right. I love the suspense because that is the whole point. I totally respect others opinions about how this season is crappy for them and they don't get it. I can't however understand or even begin to put myself in their shoes. I think the show's writers and creative team are doing an awesome job and we are only on episode 8! We have 15 more episodes so we can't get everything at once otherwise we would not continue to watch.
My own thoughts now:
What is up with Cas pulling out his angel blade against Crowely?! Did I miss something?! Crowely is a demon, the angel blade can't kill him. So why was he scared?? Also Crowely was torturing Samadriel/Alfie with an angel blade so he had one and he just used his powers to summon it from the torture room (others had been wondering where it came from. And yes it could have been the one Meg had or the one that I'm sure Samadriel/Alfie had). Also the blue eyes for Cas and the glow when he was whipping his wings out. We have seen him do that before and it wasn't that intense. My thought (and hopefully others haven't already said this because I haven't read all the comments yet) is that Cas may be an ArcAngel now. We know they are more powerful then regular angels, which is what Cas was before. Maybe when the CIAngels brought him back they made him an ArcAngel???
And by the way I lovvvveeee the CIAngel theory!! It totally works for what we know so far. I do not agree however that Chuck is God. I do agree though that he could be Metatron since he was a scribe and in S5 Swan Song he was very tired of that whole situation. Also if Chuck is Metatron he would not have to be dead for Kevin to be a profit, because Metatron wasn't a profit he was an angel.
OTOH, I have always felt that Crowley is more than just your average demon or even more than your higher ranking demons like Azazel and Lilith. Until this season we have not seen Crowley's eyes go red and technically they only went red in Mrs. Tran's body AND for the first time ever a meatsuit used the voice of whatever was possessing it, so I'm still somewhat convinced that Crowley is something other than a demon, I just don't know what.
I agree that Crowley this season seems more than your average demon or even King of Hell. And your totally right about the eyes and I hadn't even thought of that until you pointed it out.
And I totally forgot to add this to my first post:
I re-watched the first episode from this season and Sam clearly tells Dean that he didn't get any of Dean's messages that he was back. So, how does Sam know to go to Rufus's cabin and meet him???? Sam is very surprised when he shows up and Dean is there, like he had no clue he was back......Just so more food for thought.
Also, the best stories DO take time to tell. Books that have several in the series to tell the whole story. With 23 episodes, personally I don't want everything laid out in the 1st few. Where is the fun in that?? Sorry you don't like the anticipation. To me, it's part of the enjoyment. Good luck Sweetie
I can't speak for anyone else, but Sam has been a mystery since S4. His story has been told in the background since S4. We've been told his story is coming in the second half of the season since S4. I think some people are simply tired of waiting for Sam's story, esp. since the past years haven't been all that satisfying or fulfilling. If you've been enjoying Sam's story over the past four years, then you will probably never understand others' frustration w/the telling of his story.
Actually, I don't really think they are telling a story for Sam. It's all just a set up for Dean to be the good brother while Sam is the bad brother...again .
ITs the kind of story telling that boggles/bothers me! there nuances in the shades of grey fog where Sam's character is concerned. Does he need this? After years of not showing his side, his POV?
I am trying SO HARD since some time to stay back, it is still habit, addiction and a big affection for Sam (and the Sam/Dean bond) but now I see the end of the horizon nearby! If there is no turning point in the Sam corner regarding his story and POV and emotional back up, I won't participate in this character destruction.
And its not that he has a girl, or that he doesn't want to hunt, its how tptb present Sam what makes it more than cringeworthy to watch.
And to give Dean a reason to be resentful towards Sam! Good night!
I'm really frustrated at this point. Only Dean matters to the writers and that hurts.
This is the 1st season I am seeing a little of the "old" Sam,but a much more mature one. People change over the years. It is resonable to expect these characters (even without the trips to Hell & back) would change as well. Agree to disagree I guess.
Yeah, The Mentalist is another of my mom's shows I could recite the dialog on. They lost me when they were to afraid to kill the" big bad" on the show. That is another one of my favorite things about this show. They kill the "big bad". They can always make another one!! Most shows won't do that. I'm still waiting for "How I Met Your Mother" to met the mother!!! lol
Yeah, if you don't enjoy it any more I agree. For myself,I can't imagine not enjoying Supernatural. The acting is so much better than any other show on TV, that alone keeps me coming back
Where I don't agree with you is in the idea that the writing has been great for Dean. They gave us quite the buildup, hinting that something bad had happened in Purgatory involving Cas, and telling us that Sam may appear unsympathetic now, but just you wait, Dean has things to answer for too. With this episode, we now know that the only thing Dean has to answer for is befriending the nicest vampire evah. Cas made the decision to stay in Purgatory, and Dean merely invented guilt for himself. The show impressed in the past with the risks it was willing to take: they didn't pansyass their way out of Dean going to Hell, and they allowed Sam to become corrupt while trying to do the right thing. You'd think that by sending Dean to Purgatory, where he has to fight every day for his life, they might attempt something similarly daring.
Dean has always been the clearest voice for the human element of the show. He wolfs down cheeseburgers, he ogles the waitress, he tells corny jokes, and his heart breaks over his kid brother. This is all relatable stuff. Where he stops being relatable is when the story insists that he could endure 30 years of Hell torture before cracking, or here, when he emerges really faultless from a year of constant battling for his life. The invented guilt is a bit absurd -- isn't it wrenching enough for a beloved friend who couldn't have made it through the portal to have shoved you to safety because your dumb loyal ass would have stayed behind with him? What's the use of Dean making it worse, only to be absolved of it?
I know some are theorizing the segfault is a CIAngel mindfrak, but it's presented not as an anomaly, but as a character moment. So I'm wondering why, if they're going to put Dean in such a dire, dog-eat-dog situation as being sucked into Purgatory, they don't go for some real, actual, HTG guilt? Especially since he so represents the human side of the story? Put a little teeth in the narrative, and have him desperate enough to make a deal with a badass monster to get out. Have him wobble a bit and wonder how much culpability he has when he can't hold on to Cas. Have Cas point out that he's not doing anything down in Purgatory besides surviving, and there are people to be saved topside. Otherwise, this is all just forced drama that raises the stakes only to let the character off the hook. The writers' version of turning the tables seems to be: "Darn you, Dean, you're so loyal! And you feel guilty when bad stuff happens to your friends!"
OTOH, that almost makes me think a bit better of Sam's storyline. At least Sam's decisions are honestly questionable and weird. The storytelling for Dean feels like one of those candidates at job interviews who are asked their greatest weakness and respond that they are just too hardworking and dedicated. There's not much room for learning and growth in that.
Sam's choices are so darn puzzling that I try to work to understand him, instead of having him handed to me with anything that might be difficult or troubling pre-explained a way.
But that's just my opinion.
Sam had to be resouled after he tried to murder Bobby. Dean understood SS couldn't be kept around, and that he might have to be killed. Even wiping Ben and Lisa's memories was done to presumably help them. I never saw that as a "dark" moment. And the Amy killing was justified. Sam cared but then they had him say it was fine.
From the show's standpoint, I think most of Dean's decisions are supported and shown to be good decisions. Again, that's JMO though.
I think it is a real disservice to Dean and there are times when I really want to see him do something very dark and edgy and see how the fallout affects others, not how guilty it makes him feel. Frankly I want him to totally betray Sam, so he can at least understand that people do bad things for good reasons and that Dean hurts people too.
Sam needs more in the present day then the thin veil of sl he is being given as in this episode and more than likely up coming ones and the weird writing of the brothers as if last week's words weren't spoken.
As I said last night, all that angst for nothing!
You've stated your position very well here, too. I'm sorry that you're not enjoying what's been happening this season, and I totally understand needing to take a break from the show if it's not enjoyable anymore. Besides, when (and I say when hopefully, for your sake!) things happen that you are interested in, you can just catch up knowing that things will be resolved more to your liking. That's always a good feeling, knowing you're gonna like where the story goes even if you don't know the details.
Please feel free to continue to drop by and comment, even if you aren't watching. Unless that would spoil it too much for you! Either way, thanks for participating in the discussions!
I have wondered if we were sidling to the apocalypse since the Sorry game and Survival of the Fittest where castiel wanted to play twister and risk ( it's the end of the world and we know it... REM). The reset to s1 core characteristics for Sam and Dean supports the idea that it all beginning again.
I have also suspected everyone in the Levi lab went to a purgatory of sorts when dick exploded. That although it' for monsters to work out there issues ( most get stuck in the cyclic hunt except for someone evolved like Benny who re-embraced his humanity before death). Evolved beings experience it differently based on their individual needs. Benny found Dean because he needed to get out. Dean was on the hunt hononh his warrior and leadership skills, becoming comfortable with brutality, finding castiel to protect and save him, and above all getting out to help Sam. So Dean is able to find Benny. Castiel is at the river washing the blood off his hands (out out damned spot) and hiding from the Leviathan that made him do the unthinkable. Sam ran and took any opportunity for a different life, desperate for normal. It looks to me like they are all on paths to self discovery and acceptance without guilt. So...
I have no idea what the hell (or heaven) is going on.
Also, it'd be awesome if the boys got some more leverage against one of the most organized and powerful enemy forces they've had to face: The CIAngels.
Also Also, how much do I love that Naomi's vessel is SG-1's Sam Carter? SO, SO MUCH! Amanda Tapping is awesome.
The only thing better than Amanda Tapping as a guest star? Alan Rickman guesting as Metatron. Start saving coin, C-Dub.
"I'm pissed off, is what I am! Do you go around drenching everybody that comes into your room with flame-retardant chemicals? No wonder you're single."
one of the best lines ever!
Not gonna lie, every time they mention Metatron I think of Alan Rickman, too. And I definitely imagine everything translates in Rickman voice instead. And THEN I imagine him threatening to cut out someone's heart with a spoon.
First of all - we have the return of "The Brothers Who Actually Have Heartwarming, Emotionally Honest Conversations" after what I would argue has been 4 seasons of lack. I do not think this is as jarring after the last episode as some. (Unless of course, the next episode reverts back to the chilliness and tension of the first 6 episodes). What I think what we are supposed to take from this is that something was released last episode. Like a balloon that got so big it finally popped and let all the air out. All that anger and tension and truth and perception and pain finally got out in the open. And rather than tearing the brothers apart - it seems to have brought them closer together.
I was SO enthralled by the brotherly moments in this episode. God, how they've been missed!
It seems Dean Winchester has turned over a new leaf after the last episode. It was incredibly odd for him to admit so readily that he thought he was hallucinating Cas (I hate spelling it 'Cass'). It was admitting a weakness, asking for help. The Dean Winchester of old would have NEVER done such a thing. He would have hid it from his brother until he could no longer hide it and/or it ended up blowing up in their faces. THEN we have Cas, god bless him, telling and showing Dean what no character has ever told or showed him: that it wasn't his fault, that he isn't responsible for everything. And Dean actually listened!
What is this strange and compelling thing called character development, and where has it been all my life???!!!
Then we have Sam, who after last episode maybe has realized the level of his brother's hurt, and seems to be making a real effort to care and comfort his brother. Not that he never cared or tried to comfort before - but what this reminded me of, really, was S4, and how whenever Dean would open up to Sam about how he was hurting, the scene would cut before we'd get to hear/see Sam's response (unless he really didn't say anything). THIS season, we got to see Sam comforting his brother. It's almost like last episode unleashed a dam of tension and hurt and we're left with nothing but emotional honesty. It's very weird, lol, but in a good way! I really hope they keep this up.
As for the rest of the episode - I'm not a fan of Mrs. Tran, and the less screen time she has, IMO, the better. The rest was great. Great writing, great pacing. Interesting, engaging, entertaining, etc. I can't believe they actually cut of Kevin's finger...did they have to do that? Ick.
I haven't yet formed a hypothesis about Cas's glowing-ness, the new angels, or the general plot, but they certainly have cards up their sleeves. One gets the distinct impression that we are on a journey going somewhere this season, and I am just along for the ride. :) That's all I have for now - gotta run!
I like your reading of where the brothers are right now. I might even have to grab onto that...
Not sure I buy that everything is hunky-dory between them, but maybe it's a start! They did indeed seem to care about each other (for the little bits we saw) and that has been sorely missed.
Maybe he's mulled over what Dean said while possessed, cobbled that with Dean's post-Purgatory PTSD and decided that the best way through this is to be understanding and honest. Same with Dean, who's also probably realized it's better to talk than hoard up a dam of emotions.
Wow, I think I'm ready to re watch this now after all this discussion. So buzzed that most people seem to like this episode.
Let me explain. I don't know why, but I seem to be able to guess what is going to happen in most TV & movies. Drove my kids crazy when they were growing up. I would figure it out half way through the movie. I remember my youngest saying, "Mom if your right I'm going to be so mad" (He can do it now-I'm so proud). After so many years of this "predicable" stuff, I like things that I CAN'T figure out. That's good story telling to me. That's one of the MANY,MANY,MANY reasons I love Supernatural.
Especially this season. Many shows I literally can guess even the dialog this year. It is that bad (My Mom's shows-Hawaii 5-0, Good Wife, Vegas,etc.--I say the lines before they do, drives her crazy!!. They make it to easy).
So bring on the surprises Supernatural. I live for it!!!
I continue to speculate and theorize, but I don't get so wrapped up in my ideas that I can't enjoy what the writers come up with. And if it is way different than I expected I like to dig deeper into that so I can understand where they are coming from. I mean, it is their job and their call, not mine. I'm along for the ride and love, love, love these brothers.
Loved this episode as it had some answers, and more questions. I think the boys are trying, but they have a lot of history to overcome, not just with each other. It's difficult to break old patterns of behavior and these are grown men now, so maybe harder. Sam touching Dean's shoulder made me positively warm inside and I sort of cheered to my screen/Sam at that point about how I loved it !! Good thing I was alone.
Really anxious to see how the last episode before winter hiatus ends!
I was an avid Agatha Christie reader (which is probably why I figure out mystery plots, a larger portion of them I swear are based on her novels, or based on things that were based on them) and I used to do the same thing with her novels. I would speculate while I was at school, trying to figure out what happened before I got home. I never figured out the whole thing.
But she would set up the plots so that most of the time all the information was there, but it was hidden in seemingly mundane information scattered about in ACTUAL mundane information. So you never knew what was important and what was not. LOVED IT! I'm wondering if they are doing some of the same thing here. Hiding important info in randoms acts.
I have upstairs neighbours ....
From Carina MacKenzie, tv critic at zap2it.com, on twitter (@cadlymack):
"I'm confused. If Dean didn't see Cas die why didn't he look for a way to get him out like Sam was supposed to look for a way to get Dean out?"
I am really not liking this theme of leaving people for dead.
After all it is precisely the same scenario - with Dean actually having more information than Sam. He knew Cas was in Purgatory and he didn't know he wasn't dead. Well he might have assumed he was dead but apparently that isn't good enough ... should try to find the person in the inaccessable place.
As an aside: Script question. Since when is the response to "I'm putting a lot of trust in you, Brother" "You earned it"? Is it me, or does that make no sense? You earned the right to put a lot of trust in me...
I'm not saying he shouldn't feel hurt because Sam didn't look and I still think Sam not looking is very OOC, but Dean did do the same thing and he believed that he had let Cas slip.
I dont see how it does. Dean knew Cass was in purgatory and as I said above he knew the only way out was thru a human. So he also realises he cannot save him and hence his guilt. Sam didnt know where Dean was and (as of current info available) he didnt bother to find out. These situations are not the same. Dean feels guilty but Sam has moved on. He found peace with Dean's disappearence and does not feel guilty about not saving Dean (I personally dont think he should feel guilty am just pointing out the difference in attitude).
The situations are not comparable and hence calling Dean a hypocrite is unfair.
I had been supposing that Dean had tried to get Cas out (and most of the Purgatory flashbacks were supporting that view) and I had thought that something dreadful happened at the end of their escape attempt which meant that Dean had to make a painful choice which then meant that Cas was trapped and/or killed. Now, after this week's episode, we see that Dean has just been feeling guilty about leaving Cas behind in a situation where there wasn't much Dean could have done to save Cas anyway. And we see that Dean feels he should have saved Cas (although, I'm not sure how that would have been possible given that Dean remembered Cas slipping away from his hold rather than being let go of). This plot development is not quite as dramatic as I was hoping.
I was hoping that Dean had done something darker than what we are shown he actually did. TBH, I'm in agreement with Castiel that he should have stayed in Purgatory for a longer time to expunge his sins. Plus, given that Cas has seriously mucked up the Winchester brothers' lives over the past number of years, I do find it strange that Dean was able to put all of that behind him so easily when trying to make sure Cas also escaped Purgatory. I suppose we could put that down to Dean's 'save everybody' mentality??
It is probably not the same as Sam's situation becos Sam didnt know where Dean was. Dean was upset becos Sam didnt LOOK for him not becos he couldnt save him. If Sam had said I searched for u but couldnt bust u out of purgatory then Dean may not be all that upset. Just my thinking. I may be wrong. Dean knew the only way out of purgatory and he knew without a human body Cass cannot get out. So to me the situations are entirely comparable.
IMO, Dean, who never gives up on anything, simply could make no sense of Cas not trying harder, of thinking he could never get through the portal, of just letting go. Dean took this as a personal failure that he once again had not saved Cas, just like he somehow couldn't save him for working with Crowley and releasing the Levi's.
I think we finally got to Carver's comment about 'perception.' Dean's perception of Cas not getting out was totall wrong, and Cas showed him what really happened.
Dean's perception that Sam left him to die for a girl will no doubt be wrong, too.
Sam's perception of his perfect normal life with Amelia is obviously going to be wrong, too.
I believe it's going to be sooooo much fun, when this ride is over, to pull out the DVDs and go.... "Oh, no way!" When you can connect the dots. At least I hope the team is going to connect the dots. I hope commerce will win out over trickstery mystery. Cuz there is chance that the "hidden story" will breathe a whole new life... a new understanding.. . new money for DVDs {hehehehe} etc... into the series in syndication.
Yes. I think Cas's "revelation" has a part to play with respect to playing with our perceptions. But I think Cas manufactured that, which on the surface would seem more deceptive than simply "playing with perceptions." This was actually setting the stage, and its role in playing with our perspectives is really more about affecting how our perceptions will be played with down the road.
If you want "playing with perception" this season, start with episode 1 (LOL).
Here's a question for you: Why do you think Dean wound up in Purgatory? Do you think it was because of Dick Roman? It seems many fans do. I don't. Really pretty sure. I suspect I know why fans think it was Roman. I know why I don't. And I think the "Roman fans" (LOL) have had their perception played with on that point.
Or... maybe not... Maybe I'm the one who is suffering from misperception about that. Time will tell. Maybe... {grin}
Assuming that Dean's memory do twisted by Dean's doing and Cas' memory is the right one. But seeing as Cas' memory also being altered by Naomi, I can't be sure if Cas' memory is true here regarding of Dean's memory.
But assuming that Dean's memory do false and Cas' is true :
Dean's raised by a soldier. Soldier's motto is No one get left behind. John always said that to Dean, Dean always said that to Sam. Dean likes to think that if he can do it, he will try hard to save anyone. He will not stop saving innocents if he is still breathing. He will not stop saving Cas and he tries as hard as he can to pull Cas.
Now, he was faced by the fact that Cas somehow pulled away. Giving up. Dean can't comprehend that. Now, the difference is only in a brief seconds. For us who sit quietly at home watching TV or VCR, we don't have Dean's experience of high adrenaline, of fear, of pain, of everything. It's possible for me that during that panic and confusion and fear and high adrenalin, the little difference in the end before the portal closed is rather skewed. Add to that Dean's confusion and his inability to understand Cas motivation.
Dean asks himself, "Did I let go of Cas? I can't be. Because I never left anyone behind. That's what Dad always told me. It's impossible that I let go of him but if it isn't then why did Cas let go of my hand? Did Cas let go of me or Didn't I strong enough to pull him?"
Now, the fact that Cas pushed Dean's hand equal to Dean leaving Cas behind. Because Cas stood back and Dean being whisked by the portal. Cas didn't fall down the cliff instead, he let go of Dean's hand and Dean left him behind. That is far worse in Dean's opinion because Dean always try to save everyone, not to leave anyone behind in a war zone. He couldn't even let go of the guilt when Jo died.
It's easier or perhaps better for Dean's own sanity to think that perhaps it's not Cas that let go of his hand but rather he slipped the slippery rock and Dean couldn't reach him in time before the portal closes. But deep in his mind he knows that he couldn't save Cas because Cas refused to be saved. And that's the thing that Dean fails to comprehend.
Dean knows exactly where Cas is. The portal opens from the inside and deep down he knows that Cas don't want to be saved. Yet, his conscious mind denies it. Well, Dean's the king of denial. These two facts warring inside his mind and spurs his guilt.
Now, Sam. When Dean learns that Sam didn't even try to lift a finger to look for him, he was livid. After all Dean tried as hard as he could to pull Cas out of Purg. His word : "I know I can pull him out. I just don't understand why he didn't try harder."
Dean is a man who never leaves anyone, any of his comrade to die in a battle field. Even dead soldier must be dragged out. He believes that he didn't leave Cas behind, he opts to think that Cas "didn't make it" as stated in epi.01.
In Sam case, Sam can't say that "I've tried to look for you Dean but I didn't succeed, I've looked everywhere, I swear, but I couldn't find a way to open purgatory from outside without damning the world."
Dean only wants to hear that Sam did TRY. Just like he had TRIED so hard to get him and Cas out of purgatory. Because he doesn't want to leave Cas behind just like he doesn't want to be left behind by Sam. Dean doesn't understand why Cas pulled off as well as he doesn't understand why Sam gave up and didn't look for him.
Dean can relate with Sam IF Sam said that he did try to look for him as hard as he could but failed. Because Dean too tried as hard as he can to pull Cas but he failed.
The fact that Cas even let go of his hand is confusing to Dean as well as the fact that Sam did not look for him. Dean cannot relate with Sam because did what Cas did. Letting go of Dean.
This is also (maybe) why Dean said last week. "Cas let me down, You let me down."
I feel like I saw that point somewhere...it is interesting, especially since Crowley seems to 'know' so much about Metatron's interactions with God.
Also I realized after I posted that it would need major retcons for Crowley not to be a demon because he has been demon trapped several times. Of course he could have been faking it, but it is really unlikely.
I love the fact that the angels and demons keep soap-opera type tabs on each other's activities
I enjoy all the speculation but I have a different impression. I believe that the exploration of the brothers' relationship this season is of a psychological nature, not a supernatural one.
Dean's memory of his escape from Purgatory was tainted and changed because of his self-perception as the failed hero, the destined savior who never quite does and his resulting perpetual guilt. I believe that we will see a similar story emerge for Sam and his memories of his year away. Not because his memories were angel manipulated, but because they will turn out to be tainted and changed by his self-perception . How that will play out exactly, I do not know, but I was struck by how the scene of Sam leaving Amelia in the middle of the night, for example, was dark and grey, as opposed to the rose-colored memories in the flash back scenes.
The movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is being mentioned as a possible comparison in the speculation of Sam's mind-wipe by angels, but I am actually more reminded of the movie Memento. That movie's plot slowly unfolds in reverse chronological order to the main character, who is trying to solve his wife's murder and who has lost his capacity for memory due to a brain injury. The story is told in scenes that vary very much in color and tone, depending on whose memory or which timeline is being shown. The conclusion is very different than expected, especially by the main character. Despite his memory issues, his expectations are very much colored by his self-perception .
It looked to me that the plot device of Dean's incorrect memory was being used in order to move Dean forward and away from his heavy burden of guilt (perhaps toward Carver's "maturing" of the characters) If they do something similar for Sam, that could be interesting. It still leaves some clunky holes in the narrative, but at this point I am chalking a lot of that up to some inconsistent writing and tone and perhaps some acting choices being made based on limited knowledge of long term plot.
As I said in previous comment after episode 2 or 3 maybe was aired, there is a big Evil character here at play but they play behind the screen.
The speculation is they maybe Naomi.
I also mentioned this theory before after episode 2 was aired that somehow this big Evil character (who is probably not Crowley) need Sam and Dean to be together because they need them to do their work. But they can't be seen.
So, they formulate a plan to guide Dean out of purgatory and make him think that he got out on his own. Of course Benny helps but that's just it.
Now, in this episode I think some of my theory is proven right after all and there is new aspect being shed to light here. If the angels can drag Castiel out of Purg with ease and going so far as erasing his memory then it's also possible that they can drag Dean out of Purg. Why didn't they?
Now, history stated that the Winchesters never do what they are told. They always fight to have their freedom, to do their own choice. So, just like what Cas did on 'Death Takes a Holiday' when he manipulate Dean to do his work, The CIAngels manipulate Dean,Cas and Benny to do their work.
If they help Dean out, Dean would resent them and they know that Winchesters and angels don't mix, well except Cas. Dean thinks of them as dicks anyway. So, helping Dean out blatantly, no. Formulating a plan so that Dean thinks he got out by himself will be easier to steer Dean into their path. When Dean is already on the path, he will drag his little brother Sammy with him.
The plan hit a break when Cas decides to stay behind in Purg. Cas should go out with Dean because they need him as spy. So, they pull Cas out and wipe his memory.
The angels need the tablet. But they can't work on it themselves because they know from history that by antagonizing demons so openly will cause a war and that is never pleasant. Not that the casualty will be severe, on the angel part, but the result will be minimum. Not to mention if hunters getting involve and also they have humans' soul to consider. Not that they care about human's on earth that much but at least they are not like demons who love to torture humans.
Covert operation is what they need. And they need a field agent. Reluctant fields agents.
I am still not sure about Sam. Seemingly Sam has nothing to do with this CIAngels scheme but who knows. Sam has behaved OOC and weird from the get go. Too concern about the tablet than Kevin's safety, Too concern about Cas than Dean's well being. His behavior is too similar to that of Samandriel. odd very ODD. Oh, don't forget about that shadow who lurks outside of the house in Epi.01.
I thought they are one of Crowley's demons to spy on Sam and make sure that Sam stay out of the hunting and maybe if Kevin manage to get a hold of him then they can follow Sam to get to Kevin.
But now I think there's possibility that it was an angel sent by Naomi. I thought about this too before because JC said that he will bring back angels. Angels = plural. That means angels other than Cas. More angels other than Cas. That should be interesting.
I think it's getting too long. I'll stop now.
In my more twisty and out of the box theory, it could be Dean because Dean has been topside far much longer than what we know and his memory has been erased.
Quote:How do we know that they haven't do that?
But if they didn't tamper with Dean's memory, it could be because doing that will arouse suspicion. And these angels want to stay behind the screen. They don't want the Winchester to suspect anything. They even want them to trust Cas.
{sigh}
Maybe I'd be better off Cleopatra-ing my way back down the river on this one.
Either Castiel has his "profound" bond to Dean and felt his presence...or the CIAngels put him exactly to the place for the big reunion (I know this sounds more like Soapernatural than the series I fell for....once) sorry my "hurt" comes out sometimes in my comments! It feels so redundant and familiar, I should be used to those feelings ...
As for the apparently *profound* bond between Dean and Cas - I'm with you: I don't like or believe in it, and I dislike the writers for trying to push it down our throats for the last few years. I'd rather have the CIAngels as the reason for Cas turning up at Sam and Dean's motel.
I love your term 'Soapernatural'
What strikes me when I think of the episodes I can't think of a floating brothers relationship anymore but I think the whole time "so tptb are doing this because of Castiel fans and they doing this because Dean is the fan favorite and they doing this because with Sam they can do this".
If JC would know the brothers and their bond and would concentrate to give us equality with Sam and Dean, my whole feeling would be different for this season.
EDIT: Never mind, I think it might be MY computer which is being glitchy....
Re: the episode. I’ll be honest, every time I think about I can’t help but laugh, and it’s not a ‘That was funny’ laugh but an incredulous ‘Did they actually do that?’ laugh. That’s not good, I know and I’m sorry, but I can’t help it!
Let me see if I get this straight; we see Dean feeling guilty about leaving Castiel behind even though he didn’t leave him behind, he just wanted to believe that he left him behind so that he could feel guilty for leaving him behind and we sympathise with Dean for feeling guilty for something he did only then to realise that he didn’t do it, despite the fact that if he did actually do it then that would be a valid reason to feel sympathy for, and empathy with, him? Now, instead of feeling sympathy for Dean I feel like an idiot for feeling sympathy for Dean in the first place! Man, you couldn’t make this stuff up (oh wait, they did make this stuff up......)
Could someone please tell me what exactly was the point of Dean ‘rememberingâ €™ wrong in relation to Castiel? Was it to highlight the difference between ‘I’ll never leave a man behind’ Dean and ‘Yearrah, I’ll help as long as I can get home in time for my tea’ Sam? Was it a manipulative ploy to elicit sympathy for Dean in that he carries all this guilt and responsibility on his shoulders for stuff he didn’t actually do? Is it a rehash of how Dean felt in season 5 and where it almost led him when he thought it was all on him back then?
From a storytelling POV I know how I’m supposed to react to this ‘Oh Dean, you brave, tortured soul. Come and rest your weary, tormented head upon my heaving bosom and let me caress your furrowed brow while you angst on the aforementioned heaving bosom' but I didn't. Maybe it’s because I’m not a mother or something but what I actually want to do is laugh and say ‘Dean, dude, you’re some muppet...’ He’s making up ‘bad’ things that he believes he did as a form of self punishment for living! Honest question, is it possible that Dean has some form of Munchausen Syndrome? Does he like feeling miserable?
At this stage I just hope to God that Benny is a good vampire, the bestest ever vampire, the vampire that revolutionises vampirism for all eternity. Let him be the vampire who discovers that Blood Zero stuff they use in True Blood so that neither he, nor any other vampire will ever again have to kill a human. Hell, have another Benny flashback episode and let us see him be the one who showed Samuel how to reverse vampirism because if Benny does anything untoward, if he even breathes wrong (do vampires breathe?) and this causes Dean to start with the guilt complex thing again, then I'll crack.
I’m sure all this ‘Another person I couldn’t save’ malarkey is written to show how big of a heart Dean has, how noble he is, how burdened he is but the persistent shoving of this down my throat doesn’t make me think he’s noble or brave or worthy, it just makes me think how damn unrealistic he is. He’s now a freaking comic book hero, stereotypical as bedamned and it’s the main reason why I’m finding it so hard to relate to Dean this season, to get on board with him because this guilt ridden Jesus complex he has is fierce hard to take.
Not only that but now I’m questioning all of Dean’s past harsh judgments on others. Did these people actually wrong him or was it just his persecution complex ridden ‘memory’ again? (Whoa, if that's the case we might actually get something positive said about John! There, I've found a silver lining!)
Add to that, it seems that Dean is now a character that the show is utterly unwilling to take risks with. Spoilers said that Dean would have secrets and feel guilty about what he did in Purgatory. His secret was that he bought back a new vegetarian bff who saved his life numerous times and what he feels guilty about.... he made up!! (I’m sorry, I’m laughing again.) That's warm, flat, diet Coke Dean when I'd have loved to have had a straight from the fridge, poured into a glass of ice diet Coke Dean. Oh God, I miss the bravery of past seasons.
I’m fully expecting the ‘Hater, hater, pumpkin eater’ (is that how it goes?) comments, by the way. The thing is, I used to love Dean, I want to like Dean, I’m hanging for a return of a Dean that I can like (and I don’t have very high standards, ask anyone) but this guy that I’ve seen for the past 8 weeks is one I wouldn’t cross the road for, let alone support in whatever quest he’s on. I just hope to God that the Purgatory storyline is done and dusted and now Carver can spend some time on making Dean a real boy again.
Well Sam, I see the little pep talk that you got last week worked. I’m now wondering if he should check for the presence of a soul because not a single emotion did he carry forward from then? Were these episodes filmed chronologically because I must admit, Sam is giving me whiplash with all the about turns he’s doing; he’s hurt, he’s not hurt, he’s pissed, he’s not pissed, he’s empathic, he’s not empathic etc. It was nice to see how supportive Sam was of Dean. Fingers crossed that we’ll actually get to see Dean do likewise someday instead of just throwing out comments about organic produce and peanut butter (I really didn’t get that peanut butter and chocolate comment that Dean made in 8.01. I mean, I get what he's referring to (I think) but I don't get it. Is it some sort of euphemism for a sexual sandwich or something?)
Question; Sam wants to close the gates of hell, why on earth is he then sending the one man with the knowledge of how to do that to Garth? Apart from the fact that the prophet would surely be safer with two hunters and an angel, would it not make more sense to stay with Kevin and work on getting the gates closed before Crowley snaps Kevin up again?
It’s strange that the character I was most interested in this episode was Castiel, a character I wasn’t overly keen on up until now. Here he was interesting (though I fear that ‘You won’t remember a thing’ thing is going to be an awful pain in the arse pretty soon). So Castiel decided that Purgatory was his punishment for his wrongs, Sam decided that the Cage was the punishment for his wrongs, is this guilt-ridden Dean his self determined punishment for his own (made up) wrongs? Though if Castiel is to keep an eye on the Winchesters and reporting back to the other angels, does this mean we’ll be seeing an awful lot more of him working with the Winchesters in episodes to come? I guess their solved case rate will go through the roof. And he’ll be able to reattach Kevin’s baby finger so he’ll definitely come in handy. I liked Kevin here too and I’ve no problem with him doing Crowley’s bidding after the finger thing. I went around with only one ear pierced for 11 years (it hurt....) so I’m certainly not able to judge him harshly. Mrs Tran reminds me of someone, some TV mother, in terms of her attitude and actions and I cannot for the life of me think who. It’s really annoying me.
It was nice to see actually Crowley being a bit scary here, given that he is a demon and all. At least the torture of Alfie was realistic with the snot and saliva and stuff (nice and phlegmy!). Did Castiel or someone not twig how Crowley got the names of the prophets in the first place and maybe think about a rescue? I like Alfie, he’s a dote, so he deserves a bit of a rescue (if he’s not already dead).
Does Dean now have vampire blood (or dust or whatever Benny was) in him? If so, will this have any effect on him in later episodes or will it just increase his bond with Benny?
Either Sam is wearing bigger tee-shirts or JP has lost body mass. And when I saw him in the bed I thought he had shrunk, I didn't realise his legs were bent.....
“It’s here, they promisedâ€. Who are ‘they’? Is Benny working for the angels? Was he sent there to get Dean out and make sure that he and Castiel survived? Is he a vampire/angel hybrid? (Why not??) God knows, it did seem very convenient that Dean just happened to meet the one monster in Purgatory who was good and who just happened to know the way out of there. Is Amelia also an angel? Oh awesome, Sam could have shagged both sides of the heavenly spectrum. That’s one for the diary. (Dude, you've got to start hitting some Leviathan nightclubs......)
‘CIAngel’ is a great phrase, by the way. I am so going to be using that!
Thanks for this, Ardeospina.
EDIT: sorry for being cryptic I wrote this in a rush earlier.
Elegant disagreement you've put forth here. I'll let others respond more in depth, but I can see where you're coming from on this.
And yes, use CIAngel. I am rather tickled with it and would love everyone to use it!
There was no urgency in the Levi Dean cas fight scene at the end.The fight scene was plain bad.They killed two Levis then there was no others why not stroll to the portal .
Effectwise even the portal was not looking like it was closing so again that was funny..The portal waited till Dean could reach out to Castiel and Cas could hold on to his hand and then it blinks out after Castiel tells him go on
What you wrote about Dean is dead on for me. I felt relieved and (almost) laughed, no I laughed about your description of Dean. Its sad that the writers only coming up with ideas how to give Dean his self inflicted pain-guilt-synd rom, and drape all the other characters around so "it can happen again".
Also what you wrote about Sam, I don't know this Sam anymore, and he is just sometimes this sometimes that, but no personality I recognize anymore. Although Jared is worth a look or two, but I think its not honorable how the writers work with the character. He was once honorable in the past for me, the character is diminsihed and right now I can't connect to him anymore......wr iters fault!
And Dean is just .....they don't dare to make him questionable things...really questionable, because he is the POV of SPN. If they would have shifted to Sam ...now that would have been INTERESTING!
What you wrote about Dean is dead on for me. I felt relieved and (almost) laughed, no I laughed about your description of Dean. Its sad that the writers only coming up with ideas how to give Dean his self inflicted pain-guilt-synd rom, and drape all the other characters around so "it can happen again".
Also what you wrote about Sam, I don't know this Sam anymore, and he is just sometimes this sometimes that, but no personality I recognize anymore. Although Jared is worth a look or two, but I think its not honorable how the writers work with the character. He was once honorable in the past for me, the character is diminsihed and right now I can't connect to him anymore......wr iters fault!
And Dean is just .....they don't dare to make him questionable things...really questionable, because he is the POV of SPN. If they would have shifted the POV to Sam ...now that would have been INTERESTING!
The theory that Sam may of been manipulated does provide a explanation to Sam this season I mean something has to but at the same time it would be sad has Sam would be robbed again of deciding for his life.