I did something I normally don't do before writing my weekly review.  I went and read other people's reviews.  I honestly wanted to see if I was missing something, if my reservations about the tired pacing, lackluster tension, and absence of originality in this episode were unfounded.  I even watched the episode right away after the first airing on Friday night just so I could confirm that I did indeed miss something.  Sadly, the impact from the second watch was no better than the first.  

I'm sorry, I tried.  I wanted to love this episode so much, especially coming off strong two weeks.  I wanted to give this the benefit of the doubt, since it did check all the boxes (which turned out to be a problem).  I just couldn't love "There Will Be Blood."  I couldn't really like it either, but I think the status falls just below the line of like, still far from hate.  

Don't get me wrong, "There Will Be Blood' wasn't a total waste.  There were some great individual scenes and parts.  The problem was, they didn't come together great as a whole, which has really been a struggle for many of the episodes this season.  Why don't I start with what worked?  


What Worked

I swear I saw a hint of the old show when Sam and Dean were on the bench with the tainted corn syrup affected vegetable man, who mindlessly sucked in more poison with his giant slurpee and his Plucky Pennywhistle's t-shirt.  Sam and Dean casually talked to each other about the case on the Biggersons bench with this guy in the middle while getting his blood in a painful yet non-resistant way.  The cop firing off his siren to the beat of "Why Can't We Be Friends" was a nice touch.  That's exactly the type of quirky fun the show used to have with various scenes in more serious episodes.  Remember the poking Rose with a stick line in "Playthings?"  Castiel and Meg in "Caged Heat?"  It's like those.  Oh and yes, you can draw blood from a hand vein.  It's not ideal, but because I have small veins, it's happened to me lots of times.  

 

I also loved what the additive did to the vampires and the entire dramatic showdown between Leviathan Edgar and the Alpha Vamp.  At least these two characters were given some very meaty dialogue.  The Leviathan don't want to just take out humans, they aren't tolerant of their own Purgatory brethren as well.  I'm very happy the show decided to show that twist in the Leviathan plan.  The monster deaths are quicker and more gruesome, showing just how much the Leviathan loathe their comrades in eternity.  

The best part about the twist though was the golden opportunity to bring back the Alpha Vamp.  I loved every scene the he was in and his return was a true delight.  He was actually far more entertaining than in the episode then when he was captured last season in "Family Matters."  When he's in control, he can be downright chilling, but he's not stupid either.  He saw that Sam and Dean were right pretty quickly, and it didn't take much to convince him to play ball.  I did love the "See you next season," line myself, even if it was a blatant attempt at meta by the writers.  Dean's, "I'm looking forward to it," was equally as amusing.  

Also, I love the latest developments with Bobby, even if I've had reservations in general about the ghost story line.  He's angry, unstable, very smart and well versed in ghost lore, and yes, a very serious threat.  He's also been helpful, even if I'm still trying to figure out how he could have popped in to that house and then back into the car again (I believe that's been brought up enough in other reviews, so I won't dwell).  I can easily see a tearful moment coming of Sam and Dean burning the flask.  What choice do they have?  Possessing the maid is taking things too far.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, this just isn't going to end well.  

Finally, and by far the best part, there's plenty of amazing eye candy from a cinematography perspective.  There were some truly gorgeous shots, and most of them came from the Alpha Vamp's mansion.  Guy Bee and Serge Ladoucer really went for broke and they came out with a visual masterpiece.  The framing, the tricks of the light,  the camera angles, just gorgeous and very effective.  Jerry Wanek and his team also deserve major kudos for set decoration.  I could devote a whole review just to that, but why don't a share a few visual gems instead.  The pictures speak way louder than words.  





 

What Didn't Connect

All the markers were in place.  This episode at a very basic level did exactly what it was supposed to do, setup what was needed to take us into the climactic season finale.  That's the problem though, it was executed at a basic level.  It was almost if each scene was written, a check box was ticked, and they moved onto the next one.  I swear I was watching a live action manufacturing pick list.  There was no urgency, no gut punching "humanity hanging in the balance" feeling.  I was missing the butterflies.    

This is season seven, and I suppose that Sam and Dean aren't going to attack saving the world again with the same intensity.  But I felt far more intensity even with the recent "The Girl With The Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo" than this episode.  How were those different?  Pacing and flow for one.  "Girl" was so fluid from scene to scene and grasped my attention from beginning to end.  It was also very clever.  "There Will Be Blood" was a bunch of scenes pieced to together that accomplished a purpose, but didn't quite capture the magic when put together.  Robbie Thompson, the writer "Girl," brings to the table a gift for sharper dialogue and top notch pacing, something that has always been a clear weakness for writers Dabb and Loflin.  The latter tends to fill their space with bad jokes, pandering shout outs, and toilet humor.  That works for a "Plucky Pennywhistle's Magical Menagerie," but not an episode with more serious undertones.  

Characterization is also an issue.  Sam and Dean were different in this episode.  At first I thought they were out of character, but now it's conceivable they could really in character and they've been mostly out of character this season.  Either way, it's an inconsistency.  For example, Sam's urgent pleas to the Alpha Vamp and his agitated behavior through the entire search for him had me wondering why he's acting that way.  Sure, that could actually be the Sam of old, but season seven Sam has been calm and handling with practically little emotion everything that comes his way.  That's actually a criticism of mine about S7 Sam, but still, to have him acting very differently from the rest of the season stands out.  

Dean was better, back to drinking whiskey and whining about having to eat healthy food (radishes Sam, really?), but he was actually less about going through the motions for once and more about catching the bad guys.  Again, it was nice to see this side of Dean, but this has been the farthest thing from season seven Dean.  He just can't be acting this way overnight when he hasn't all season.  However, I will admit to watching Dean's new custom leather jacket more than his behavioral quirks.  (Yum!)

As for the rest of it, what a mess.  The poor victimized girl Emily didn't attract me to the story.  It felt too, yes you know the word that's coming, procedural.  Like I was watching "Supernatural: SVU."  Again, she served a purpose to the story, but this is episode 22.  The action and intensity should be amped up to 11 at this point.  Her drama just seemed to drag everything down and take away valuable time that could go toward the action or brotherly tension.  Remember the days when Sam and Dean could smell a double cross?  You know, the days when they were smarter?  I also get the outrage about the young boy captured by the Alpha Vamp, but it just felt off given the context of everything else happening.  It didn't seem necessary.

Also, the big menace that will take down the world is high fructose corn syrup?  Oh please.  Can't the Leviathan do better than that?  Remember just two years ago, when the threat of the Croatoan virus being released into the world had us on the edge of our seats in "Two Minutes til Midnight?"  Death sending chills up our spines by just one cold stare, let alone eating pizza with Dean?  Tell me, were you feeling the same way when watching a bunch of sloths gaze incoherently at the slurpee machine?  

The issue once again is emotional disconnect.  It's not that the brothers aren't working well together, they are.  I certainly don't expect them to get all weepy and start shedding the long missing single man tears either.  But they aren't emotionally invested in anything.  They aren't even effectively dealing with Bobby or trying to talk to him rationally like they normally would.  They're all about freaking out over angry spirit stuff, having random worried talks that are too short to go anywhere, and putting him away when it suits them.  The conversations about Bobby are lacking tension and urgency.  I did see a hint of something firing at the end when they realized Bobby was gone, but that was ruined by Crowley getting stuck in a high tech Devil's Trap (which was really cool by the way.  I want one in my basement).  It's again trying to do too much and not slowing down the story for impact at the right moments.  

In the random notes department, car of the week (and it looks like the be the last freaking damned one!) is a 1969 Plymouth GTX, in very awful salmon coral color.  No, that car doesn't stand out at all (sarcasm).  Come on, the Impala is more subtle!  The Impala is FINALLY back next episode.  Writers, don't ever, ever take her away again.

Facing the End of Season Seven

Not to sound negative or anything, but I really am looking forward to season seven being over.  You can tell the writers are fatigued, since Sam and Dean are going into this home stretch pretty lackluster after being burned out and low key all season.  The fandom mood in many instances is sour too.  I know I'm tired!  I just think we need a long, hard deep breath and a long summer to regroup. 

When I do my season seven in depth look this summer hellatus, I'm going to dig into exactly what point it looks like the writers started phoning it in.  It was clearly far longer than when this episode was constructed.  For every great episode we've gotten, like last week's Ben Edlund offering, it's countered with something thin and lackluster, like this one.  Again, it wasn't horrible, but it's not the kind of episode you'd expect for a lead in to the season finale.  I know there's a lot of resentment when I do comparisons with other shows (yes "Nikita" and "The Vampire Diaires" have rocked it), but just look at episodes from prior seasons that have lead into the finales for  "Supernatural."  Most have done better. I should also note that where the writing has lacked, the production and acting have never been better.  That has been most of season seven's saving grace.  


I'll tell you though the biggest reason why I'm very looking forward to the season finale.  Because hopefully this will finally mean the end of the dick jokes.  Enough!  It was funny for a couple of episodes but now, it just wreaks of desperation by writers that are showing some extreme fatigue as they drag themselves to the finish line.  

Overall grade of "There Will Be Blood," a C.  Cinematography, direction, and set decoration though, an A+.  Easily the best of the season.  Only one more guys.  Let's hope it's a great one.  

Comments  

NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-05-15 13:03
BEEN WAITING FOR YOUR REVIEW. SO GLAD ITS HERE. BBL
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-05-15 13:26
I HATE THE ILL FITTING BROWN JACKET WITH WUSSY CHEST POCKETS. LOOKS LIKE VINYL.

LOVE DICK & ALPHA VAMP. SO GLAD WORTHY'S COMING BACK NEXT SEASON. HOPE DICK WILL ALSO. WHATS THE CLIFFHANGER, DICK OR BOBBY?

IF THEY DISHONOR BOBBY IN ANY WAY, I WILL BE UPSET. THERE ARE 2 SERENE GHOSTS. THE FANCY LADY WHO SPOKE FOR LAURA & THE FOX SISTER IN THE MENTALISTS. SO BOBBY COULD STICK AROUND OR GO OUT FADING AWAY LIKE JOHN DID. PLEASE DONT HAVE HIM GROWLING LIKE AN ANIMAL. NOT COOL PEOPLE.

CROWLEY SEEMS TO YET AGAIN BE PLAYING CHESS WHILE ALL OTHERS ARE PLAYING CHECKERS.

THIS IS LONG ENOUGH. THANKS, HAPPY SPN FRIDAY.
mer
# mer 2012-05-15 13:57
Another serene ghost was Molly from S2...
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-05-15 14:35
REMIND ME. I WILL HAVE TO LOOK IT UP, I HAVE ALL THE DVD's
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-05-15 22:22
Molly and the Fancy Lady were held captive, and the benevolent Fox sister was decaying...goin g nuts...whatever , as the man in the Annie episode said they all did.

The only ghost possession, other than Bobby, was the boy in After School Special, and he was possessing kids so that they would kill.

The show has 6 or more years of canon that says possession is evil.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-05-16 03:01
That possession is evil or that ghosts are evil?

If its possession is evil then, as you’ve stated, we’ve only seen two instances of it thus far on the show, and with one of those (Bobby) we don’t know how it will end up yet so we really don’t have enough to be able to state that possession is evil.

If it’s that ghosts are evil, then not necessarily. All (most of) the ghosts that we’ve seen have been evil because we’re only seeing them when the Winchester's see them, and they are only noticed because they've done something evil. Surely if a ghost didn’t take to killing then he/she wouldn’t be on a hunter’s radar? If I spent my life only looking for white sheep because I assume that all sheep are white, then I might never know that black sheep exist.

Of Grave Importance showed us more than just the fancy lady who was trying to help. It showed us Dexter O’Connell (that’s a good Irish name right there) who was actively trying to prevent deaths. We also saw, in that episode, a ghost burn up and vamoose into dust and the explanation from Crane that ghosts deteriorate at different rates so again, it shows that not all ghosts are killed by hunters. He mentioned that there were two ways to move things etc, full on explosive rage but also by 'calming yourself'. That, to me, doesn't necessarily equate to evil ghost who can't control itself.

Considering the amount of people who die each day it’s safe to assume that not all of them will go with reapers (and who’d blame them? You die, a tall, skinny guy in a black suit says ‘Come with me yadda yadda’ would you automatically go with them?) Approx 154,000 people die every day (I went to yahoo for that, by the way, I didn’t count them. Numbers range from that up to 300,000) so even if only 1% of those who died do not go with a reaper that’s 1,500 ghosts a day, over half a million ghosts a year. If they all automatically go evil and have to be killed then it would be impossible to hide their existence.

I think the explanation in Of Grave Importance works better, that many ghosts, when the energy (or whatever) that is keeping them around ebbs and runs out, then they too will simply fade away.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-05-16 06:49
If I remember After School Special correctly, that episode said that ghosts have to be very angry and powerful in order to be able to possess someone, and Bobby was very angry being confined in that motel room (although, remember, he had previously zapped into the mansion to scope it, he had already fiddled with the safe dials, and he already knew the combo before possessing the maid).

BTW, Dabb & Loflin also wrote After School Special.

Although the show has consistently established that possessing of a person is always evil, your post brings out a very good point -- canon in the show has been so messed with for the past two seasons that it cannot be relied on.

Canon is important because it gives structure to the story and to the characters. It's the very foundation of a show. When canon cannot be relied upon, fans become confused, lose faith in the story, and become frustrated. I think this is a very big reason why there is general fan dissatisfaction with the past two seasons.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-05-16 08:59
I wouldn’t say that canon has been messed up because the type of canon you are referring to is based on knowledge and therefore, is not set in stone. As Sam and Dean learn new things about the supernatural, what they knew to be canon (for them) could change and become 'new' canon, which could also change as new information is gleaned. We saw this in Bloodlust in season 2. It was 'known' that all vampires were bloodsucking killers who couldn't help themselves, until they met Lenore. It was assumed that all ghosts are killers, until they met Molly. It was assumed there was no cure for vampirism, until there was. In Adventures in Babysitting, it was assumed (by Sam) that Vetala hunted alone because that was what he knew. Then Dean informs us that they hunt in pairs. New information equals new canon.

Sam and Dean are learning all the time, so are we. I don’t think that is canon being messed up, just new information being added to the stockpile. Like I said, it's 'canon' that all sheep are white until you’ve seen a black one. Then it will be canon that all sheep are black or white until someone sees a green one.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 09:42
I agree with Tim. I see 'canon' as a little bit like science: something is an absolute truth until it is discovered that this truth is not so absolute. It's a process based on new discoveries or exception that defies the rule.

Supernatural 'rules' change since season 01 - in Devil's Trap, the YED possessing John was not affected by holy water, as demons are in general, even Meg, his daughter.
merannoeu
# merannoeu 2012-05-16 10:23
As far as I am concerned, canon are things I saw from S1 episodes like the fact that the Winchesters didn't know it was a demon that killed Mary until John spoke about it on the phone with Sam in Scarecrow...
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 11:10
Just season 01?
merannoeu
# merannoeu 2012-05-16 11:20
no, actually but I didn't want to go on and on. S6 Dean and Sam had no previous interaction with dragons. So any fanfiction that is preseries having Dean and Sam tussling with demons or dragons is an AU to me. doesn't mean those creatures didn't interfere with the Winchesters, just that the Winchesters weren't aware of them before the show said they were aware of them.....
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-05-16 14:19
If the canon retconning were for SPN worldbuilding purposes and didn't appear to be WTF moments, (gross, unexcuseable mistakes), I could buy into your argument. Example: In the case of Lenore, that was a great character-build ing scene for Dean and what Dean learned was played out in future episodes. In other words, Dean learned something and so did the audience. I learned nothing from two episodes not showing the temperature drops when a GhostBobby was around, and then this one corrected that mistake. That's not worldbuilding; that's writers mistakes.

But, I will agree to disagree. Some people like mush, some don't, and some; like me, are okay with it once in a while. I feel the writer's have over-served the mush entirely too much this season and I hope that Carver controls the ship a better than has been done since mid-S5.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 15:06
Some things might be a mistake, some may not, only appears to be.

I connect temperature drops with vengenful ghosts, not all ghosts (cold = hate). So if now the temperature drops when Bobby is around, it's only to emphasize that he is in vengeful mode, different than he was before, while he was only there to help the boys.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-05-16 16:59
Quote:
Some things might be a mistake, some may not, only appears to be.
.
Exactly. In worldbuiding, what may appear as a mistake or something odd is picked up on and becomes an important point in the story. If it is never explained, never furthers the story in some way, if the fans have to fill in the blanks, or if it is corrected in later episodes, it's a writing problem. It doesn't matter if the girl drank from the cup or not. Props, such as the tea cup, are written into episodes; they just don't appear because some random actress decided to hold one or because a director thought it would look cool. The boys looked dumb not checking the girl out, especially when she's holding a tea cup and telling them that she has only eaten thru IV for 12 years. If I was pulled out of the scene and questioned that at the time, then someone (particularly a writer who, I assume, proofreads and looks for these type of things that would cause a fan to stop and think), should have noticed.

Additionally, the show went to great lengths to attach Bobby to the flask, except when Bobby is not attached to the flask in back-to-back scenes. Of course fans are going to notice that kind of thing.

Quote:
I connect temperature drops with vengenful ghosts, not all ghosts (cold = hate). So if now the temperature drops when Bobby is around, it's only to emphasize that he is in vengeful mode, different than he was before, while he was only there to help the boys.
Your guess is as good as mine, but the point is that fans should not have to fill in the blanks. This was a penultimate episode, and what is being talked about?
Not is Bobby vengeful or not, not whether he can overcome his ghostness, not what the brothers may or may not do with him. The penultimate episode left us with nothing to talk about concerning the two leads, and we all know Dick is going down, so it's just a matter of how and who does it.

Out of the three promo clips they've put out, the CW one is non-coherent, the CHCH one has Cas explaining why he can't help in the fight, and the producer's promo has Cas talking about Cas' character. (I haven't watched the Space one yet.)

This was Alice's point that the penultimate episode left no tension, no anticipation, not really much to even talk about. Writers at this level should know better.

That's not to say I hated the episode. I didn't. But, like the rest of the season, the stories, writing, direction and focus has let the two leads down, as well as the fans. Fortunately, I don't think anyone has lost faith in the J2s and will await their return in September with hopes of a less disappointing season.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 20:01
Ginger, I do not wish to debate whether this season (the story, the writing etc.) is good or not (and maybe is not your wish too in your comment – am I right?). It’s a matter of personal taste. You state yours, I state mine, no one convinces anyone. Personally, I like this season so far – not may fav one, but not my least fav one.

I agree this show leaves hard work to the fans. It’s always so many things happening at the same time, so many interpretations , philosophical subjects that you will find every kind of opinion and intake on each episode, all different and equally valid. This site is proof. This is the only show I felt the need to search for articles to read about, because it was always my feeling I was not being able to grasp all the messages, all the nuances and I wanted to share that richness with others. That doesn’t happen much to me. And I read a lot, I see lots of movies/television.

For example, Reading is Fundamental was a hard episode for me. Didn’t quite understand it at first watch and had to read A LOT to make something about it. Now I have a first opinion about it, and I loved it! But I’m still saving for the end of the season to make the most of it.

What I want to say is that sometimes I see an episode and my first reaction is “that is stupid! what the hell was they thinking!” Then I read some comments or I think more about it and suddenly the light goes on in my head – ah!, that is what they meant! That’s brilliant! (Of course, the opposite can also happen). So, sometimes a plothole turns out NOT to be a plothole, or a mistake, but something planned to make us discover/debate /think about it. Or, it is indeed a plothole.

This thing about the temperature drop/vengeful spirit just occurred to me. I was wondering myself about it. Whether it was intentional from the writers or they were just correcting a mistake, we can never know! Or maybe in the DVD.

Sometimes the writers might sin for being too much subtle in their messages, and opting for this, not being able to pass to the viewers what they meant. But I prefer it that way, to have to fill the blanks for myself, over a too much in your face, or over literal, explanation.

As for supporting characters x Sam and Dean… Well, myself, I don’t need things happening TO them all the time, and the supporting characters (Cas, Bobby, whoever) reacting to it. I’m fine with things happening to supporting characters and watching Sam and Dean reacting to this – it’s as an important situation to me as the first one. I’ve already seen Sam betraying Dean, Dean struggling to forgive/trust Sam, Sam reaching for redemption etc…. So, I’m invested in watching how are they reacting to Cas betrayal in light of their previous experience. Will they forgive? Cas appears to be reacting different from Sam, facing his mistakes - Will they be able to help Cas?

And Bobby? They weren’t able to let go when each other died – did they learn something from this? How will they deal with Bobby? Will they help Bobby let go? All of this and the action - killing Dick thing!
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 10:49
I feel the need to remind you that there was Dick on TV there in that motel room. And the camera purposely take a few shots of the TV with news on Dick. So, Bobby's anger was multiplied when he saw Dick. Until it escalated and escalated and the peak was when he possessed the maid.
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 11:02
Tim, I'm sorry for breaching of OOT here but Possession is Evil. Because it's the raping of free will. That is why The Imperius Curse of HP is deemed Unforgivable Curse. It's stripping the victims free will and raping their mind.

Possession is the same. If a ghost commit possession then they commit rape. Rape of body and mind. I don't care if Supernatural think otherwise but if the show even hinting that possession is forgivable or not evil then I will sue the show of blatantly corrupting moral.

It is a horror show but even then Sam and Dean still have morals. They should nt forgive Bobby. Bobby has become no better than Demon who possesses people as they will. Why? because demons are all evil. That's why I never buy S3 Ruby. Demons are humans who did sinful deeds in their life. Then they are tortured in hell to be stripped of humanity. When their eyes turn black that means there were no humanity left in them only black evil essence of hell. Sam's stupidity has started in S3 and escalates in S4.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-05-16 14:23
I’m going to do this really quickly and hope Alice doesn’t notice that I too am gone off topic....

Quote:
Tim, I'm sorry for breaching of OOT here but Possession is Evil. Because it's the raping of free will. That is why The Imperius Curse of HP is deemed Unforgivable Curse. It's stripping the victims free will and raping their mind.

Possession is the same. If a ghost commit possession then they commit rape. Rape of body and mind. I don't care if Supernatural think otherwise but if the show even hinting that possession is forgivable or not evil then I will sue the show of blatantly corrupting moral.
Possession certainly is, in and of itself, bad due to the removal of free will from the subject. However, there is a difference between being bad, doing bad and doing something bad for a purpose.

In relation to the removal of free will, Sam, Dean, Castiel and even Bobby himself have been guilty of that particular wrong, more than once. Dean and Bobby took free will from Sam when they locked him in the panic room. Dean took free will from Sam when he put his soul back, despite Sam, soulless or otherwise, imploring him not to. Castiel took free will from Jimmy Novak and while he may have willingly consented the first time, the second time Castiel was holding Jimmy’s daughter hostage; not much free choice involved there. Sam and Dean locked Bobby in a safe, his own little panic room. Again, the deprivation of free will. Dean removed memories from Ben and Lisa. Where was their free will? If you’re saying that Bobby is evil and has no morals because he deprived a person of free will, then the same thing needs to be said about the rest of Team Free Will (an ironic name consider what they have done!)

Quote:
It is a horror show but even then Sam and Dean still have morals. They should nt forgive Bobby. Bobby has become no better than Demon who possesses people as they will.
Sorry kaj, to me it’s not that black and white. May I ask, if, when Bobby possessed the lady, he did it to save someone’s life, or if he managed to kill Dick Roman as a result of possessing her, do you think they should forgive him then or is it a case of ‘Sorry, but you did wrong, you are dead to us now?’

Quote:
Why? because demons are all evil. That's why I never buy S3 Ruby. Demons are humans who did sinful deeds in their life. Then they are tortured in hell to be stripped of humanity. When their eyes turn black that means there were no humanity left in them only black evil essence of hell.
Sam’s eyes turned black in Lucifer Rising. Is he evil?

Quote:
Sam's stupidity has started in S3 and escalates in S4.
Not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand but okay.... Sam worked with Ruby because he believed they shared a common, and greater, purpose; killing Lilith (and they did). Was it stupid? Yes. However, if it had not resulted in Lucifer rising, would Sam's decision have been stupid? No. And Sam is not the only one to be ‘stupid’ in that regard. Dean too has worked with (trusted?) a demon; numerous demons. He ‘trusted’ Ruby for a time, he also trusted Crowley and Meg therefore he did wrong to serve a greater purpose.

I understand that the removal of free will, free choice is a touchy subject for some but I'm sorry, I feel it needs to be put into context before it is declared 'unforgivable'.
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 15:44
I'm sorry Tim, but I guess I'm just a person that consider the means justify the end not the other way around. If you steal from the rich then giving it to the poor does not mean your sin will magically disappear they will tally in the end your thieving or the helping poor, which one is heavier. It's my personal view so If you disagree then I don't have right to change your view.

Sam said in Dark Side of The Moon that "The road to heaven does not paved with good intention" I completely agree. Look how that went with good intention gone bad. Doing something bad for a purpose, or doing bad things to help people is not gonna appeal to me. It's more of my personal view.
At least the angel has a rule that they will not take over someones body without their consent (as opposed to Demons) but they still did it with manipulation and etc. So, they are just as dicks.

If Bobby posses me I will burn him, as soon as I get the flask. No matter what Sam and Dean say. It's easy to look into something from outside point of view but I feel possession deeply offends me. From where I come from, we have several cases of possession by ghost in real life. Honest. Some evil spirit possessing students even I used to have a friend who got possessed. It was long time ago but ghost and supernatural really are not only on TV here. The supernatural writers really should do their research here. There are real life supernatural happenings around my neighborhood. My neighbor is what you call shaman?

So, sometimes when watching Supernatural I laughed because the fact is sometimes wayyy offf but they get right often. The theme of possession is very close to home for me. Maybe you never experience it but I am close to it. I played Ouija board at highschool and my friend almost got possessed. I have a friend who really can see spirits but the truth is ... they are actually not ghost but ... Ok it's OOT. :) Sorry...

So, no. I'm not gonna put it into context because there is nothing to put. If I am Dean or Sam I will burn the flask all along. If the writer write about Bobby finally the one who can kill Dick then I will ask. Why you wrote it that way? What are you trying to say here? That to get possessed is ok? If only to kill the bad guy? I'll challenge the writer to come here to be possessed by one of the spirit here in my place. Let's see what they feel about it.

Moving on ... Sam. I just don't like the way the writer write Sam in S3 and S4. So, blatantly believe in Demon when in logical sense. (at least in my logical sense, Demons are all evil) And the Demon finally gaining Dean's trust in Heaven and Hell. Perhaps I'm the only one screaming to the screen. "SHE'S EVIL CAN'T YOU GUYS SEE?!!" There is no good demon. About what you said about Sam. I never think of Sam as Demon. From what I gather from the show it usually takes years of torture and to be the one who torture to be a demon. I believe if Dean spent in Hell as a torturer years longer he will comes out as a demon.

They torture the soul right? Normally human's soul is pure bright light but demon's is black. It's a glaring difference.
So it's like this... Human do sinful deeds they go to hell. Their soul is tortured and molded and stripped off all good stripped of all great things that makes them human until their soul lost it's brilliance and become dark and black. It's almost like a ritual there are steps and things to be done to change human's soul to become a demon. There are no reversing when they reach this step.

Now, Sam. Sam haven't been to hell in S4. What he did is drinking Demon's blood. It has the capacity to taint his body, yes but I don't think it taint Sam's soul. Because Sam never become a torturer in hell, never endure hell initiation. Ruby cannot work on hell ritual and initiation on Sam on earth. There is a reason why hell is called hell. There is a reason why God (even Supernatural God) create hell in the first place. There is something IN hell that can mold human's soul into demon. Like Meg said in Born Under a Bad Sign. "You know what hell is like? Well it's hell. Even for us."

Sam cannot be a demon in S4. Ruby only infects him so that he somehow imitates the demon's power. Now, I really believe that Sam's power would not be manifested no matter how many he drinks demon's blood if he does not have potential in the first place. But Azazel uses that potential in his advantage, then Ruby manipulates it to her advantage. Ruby does not need to turn Sam into a demon she only needs to manipulate him in order to kill Lilith with his enhanced power. Sam's eye turning black is temporary, right? It's the side effect of the demon blood.

Now, I'm mostly just ick with S4 because seriously it's my least favorite season. I have many question to Kripke because of it. One of them is why Sam's eye turning black in Lucifer rising. Why making Sam too trusting on Demon. Why making Sam addicted to Demon blood in the first place. Sam is too smart for that.
Chuck said "Drinking blood? I mean you gotta know that's wrong, right?" Right! Why Kripke?
Dean said "Why you're so bent on killing Lilith. Hoped up on Demon blood to do it? To get revenge for killing me? I'm here, man. I'm back." Here I am screaming Why Sam?

Ok, So basically Sam just wants to get away from Dean. To have his own power to get out of Dean's larger than life shadow. It's basically Sam's theme from the pilot. Going to college to be on his own. But why Kripke wrote it like that? It frustrates me.

I'm sorry Tim. So, sorry but when you took reference out of S4 with Sam's demon blood addiction. I was thinking... Ugh... that season with that abomination issue. I so not want to take that issue as reference. I usually disregard anything that deals with it. It's bad touching me. That's all.

I'm not going to play what if Quote:
However, if it had not resulted in Lucifer rising, would Sam's decision have been stupid?
history cannot be change. The result in Lucifer rising has happened. It's not an If. It's a fact even Sam and Dean cannot change their past. It's shown as a tool to learn. To teach Sam and Dean. But again the execution of that idea baffles me.

Are you saying about Meg in hospital with cas? Well, Dean said It's mutually assured destruction. So basically Meg and Cas can kill each other. Dean does not really give it a mind. Crowley? I think Dean trusts him as much as he can throw him. He always looks at Crowley with wary, distrustful eyes. Thank you for Jensen's acting for that part. His body language is shown that he never trusts Meg and Crowley. Yes they help the guys with their own agenda. But Sam and Dean haven't sacrificing virgins. (Like what Ruby suggested in Jus In Bello) They haven't killing innocent to shed their blood for the ritual. (Like the trickster suggested in Mystery Spot) Not drinking Demon Blood. (thank God! please not again). Not possessing anyone.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 15:51
Tim, I think the context here is evil, therefore wrong.

The episode shows Bobby dissatisfied but relatively calm in the hotel room after the boys left, while watching the girl. He didn't become agitated when she phoned her "Daddy", either. He only started to go off the rails when he saw Dick Roman on the TV - he completely forgot about the girl, and Sam and Dean, at this point.

He possessed the girl only to chase Dick, not to warn the boys. And there was no reason for him doing so, since he knew they were working at that right moment in order to defeat Dick, according to the plan settled by the 3 of them. And what can happen to the maid - she might end up hurt or dead!

I don't think Sam or Dean would possess someone against his will to achieve a goal, nor would Bobby while alive, in his right mind. His wife was possessed! As an example, they didn't threaten Charlie to go to Roman's office, they gave her a choice.

In the examples you gave above, Dean was trying to protect Sam and Bobby even against their will, and this is certainly not evil. They are different situations (apart from the Cas on, this one is more debatable).

I believe, though, that nothing is absolutely unforgiven, Bobby can still be talked back.
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 16:23
Quote:
Tim, I think the context here is evil, therefore wrong.

The episode shows Bobby dissatisfied but relatively calm in the hotel room after the boys left, while watching the girl. He didn't become agitated when she phoned her "Daddy", either. He only started to go off the rails when he saw Dick Roman on the TV - he completely forgot about the girl, and Sam and Dean, at this point.

He possessed the girl only to chase Dick, not to warn the boys. And there was no reason for him doing so, since he knew they were working at that right moment in order to defeat Dick, according to the plan settled by the 3 of them. And what can happen to the maid - she might end up hurt or dead!

I don't think Sam or Dean would possess someone against his will to achieve a goal, nor would Bobby while alive, in his right mind. His wife was possessed! As an example, they didn't threaten Charlie to go to Roman's office, they gave her a choice.

In the examples you gave above, Dean was trying to protect Sam and Bobby even against their will, and this is certainly not evil. They are different situations (apart from the Cas on, this one is more debatable).

I believe, though, that nothing is absolutely unforgiven, Bobby can still be talked back.
Completely agree with you, vivian. You're picking up the details well. But Bobby is out of reservation, I think. His action of possessing human is unforgivable.

I remember Cas too had been out of the reservation before and so is Sam. While Dean has soft spot on Sam, yet he still cannot forgive Cas for releasing the Leviathan and killing innocents.

I like it that Cas feels remorse of killing all those people when he played God. The question is now. How will the writer write a remorseful Bobby? Will the writer write a remorseful Bobby at all? Giving him a chance like they gave Cas?
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 16:39
kaj, I truly hope the writers give this chance to Bobby too! He deserves that!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-05-16 16:53
Quote:
Tim, I think the context here is evil, therefore wrong.

The episode shows Bobby dissatisfied but relatively calm in the hotel room after the boys left, while watching the girl. He didn't become agitated when she phoned her "Daddy", either. He only started to go off the rails when he saw Dick Roman on the TV - he completely forgot about the girl, and Sam and Dean, at this point.
I don’t believe that wanting to kill Dick Roman is necessarily evil..... Is revenge evil? It can be. But sometimes sitting aside and waiting for bad things to happen, knowing you could do something to help, is equally as bad.

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He possessed the girl only to chase Dick, not to warn the boys. And there was no reason for him doing so, since he knew they were working at that right moment in order to defeat Dick, according to the plan settled by the 3 of them.
I dare say that plan that was settled by the 3 of them went out the window the moment Sam and Dean locked Bobby in the safe. He’s a hunter. He’s spent most of his adult life protecting and helping people. He helped stop the damn Apocalypse. Yet, despite knowing all this, Sam and Dean decide to lock him away for no other reason bar the fact because he's a ghost, he can't be trusted.

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And what can happen to the maid - she might end up hurt or dead!
Or she could be completely fine, though she might miss a few hours pay. Pragmatic bitch here but sometimes you have to take the chance. (Easily said when it's other people's lives I know, but what can you do??)

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I don't think Sam or Dean would possess someone against his will to achieve a goal, nor would Bobby while alive, in his right mind. His wife was possessed! As an example, they didn't threaten Charlie to go to Roman's office, they gave her a choice.
Sam, Dean and Bobby have killed to achieve a goal. They have taken lives to get what they need. If possession was an option for them to do what they felt was the greater good, then I think they’d do it in a heartbeat. Let’s face it, they’ve done a hell of a lot worse.

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In the examples you gave above, Dean was trying to protect Sam and Bobby even against their will, and this is certainly not evil. They are different situations (apart from the Cas on, this one is more debatable).
Would killing Dick Roman not also protect Sam and Dean? Given that they were at that moment chasing down an Alpha Vamp and had yet to deal with the King of Hell (not the most palpable character) then try to get near enough to him to try and stab him (and Dick is wicked strong, fast, dangerous, well protected and with a huge mouth), it’s possible that Bobby going after him would spare them that.

Is revenge a factor in what Bobby is doing? Damn straight, but there can be more than one reason to do a thing. Sam knows this. He started out wanting revenge for his brother, then ending the Apocalypse was added to it.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 17:50
Tim, I said the context described was evil (the situation/circu mstance that led to the possession), not the reason why he possessed the girl (in order to kill Dick).

Nobody is sitting aside waiting for bad things to happen, on the contrary, they were actively working to resolve it the best way possible. Harming someone recklessly and aimlessly, on purpose, achieve nothing at all, it only brings pain. He didn’t have a plan, he was certainly not thinking clearly, or at all. Endanger someone is not better, and in no way excusable if you get lucky and the person does not get hurt.

Yes, sometimes you have to risk it, and yes, Sam and Dean has killed, but only in self defence or in defence or others and/or when there was nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE to be done. No other alternative whatsoever. It is not the case with Bobby. He didn’t need to possess the girl to get rid of Dick.

I believe things get an evil turn when you start to show disrespect to human lives, harming people for whatever reason by justifying it in ‘the greater good’. Like nuking and entire town just to get hid of ‘one little witch’ (ITGP,SW). Wasn’t there a better way, one that not unnecessarily kill everyone? I think the same thing applies here – there is a better way, there is no need to harm the maid.

Sorry, I was saying that in those situations Dean was trying to protect Sam and Bobby from themselves (forgot the themselves word!). As a hunter, Bobby should know that it’s their jobs to put themselves (Bobby, Sam, Dean) in the line of fire to protect innocent lives, not put innocent lives in the line of fire to protect hunters, even loved ones! If he wants to stab Dick to protect the boys, as he is already dead and cannot be further harmed, feel free, but leave the girl alone! Find another way to get close to Dick!

But I grant you, Sam and Dean should have tried to better reason with Bobby, to make him try to see their side. This does not, however, justify what Bobby did.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-05-16 19:32
This really is tremendous fun!! Quote:
Nobody is sitting aside waiting for bad things to happen, on the contrary, they were actively working to resolve it the best way possible. Harming someone recklessly and aimlessly, on purpose, achieve nothing at all, it only brings pain. He didn’t have a plan, he was certainly not thinking clearly, or at all. Endanger someone is not better, and in no way excusable if you get lucky and the person does not get hurt.
We don’t know she’ll be harmed. In fact, it's quite likely she won't. Dirk was hopping from person to person, and apart from the fact that one ot two could spend a bit of time in juvie and the one football player who might be having strange flashbacks of giving the full cowgirl to a hot male stranger, the people Dirk possessed were unharmed. Physically, they were fine. Could the same thing not apply to Bobby and his possession of the lady?

Unfortunately, desperate times call for desperate measures. What should Bobby have done? Should he have tried to talk the lady into letting herself be possessed by a ghost? Should he have waited for someone more suitable to come along before hopping on in them? Or just waited and hoped that Sam and Dean would come back? What if they didn't? What if they were killed? Bobby would be stuck in the safe, and would probably be dumped or destroyed when it was opened. If Sam and Dean were dead (and remember we know about season 8, Bobby doesn’t!) then he would now be the only guy who knew enough and had the ability to get what was needed in order to stop the Leviathans. So if Bobby did nothing, then Dick and the Leviathans could win. That’s an awful big price to pay for doing the ‘right’ thing.

And unfortunately, Sam and Dean are expecting, no, they are forcing Bobby to sit aside waiting for possible bad things to happen.

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Yes, sometimes you have to risk it, and yes, Sam and Dean has killed, but only in self defence or in defence or others and/or when there was nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE to be done. No other alternative whatsoever. It is not the case with Bobby. He didn’t need to possess the girl to get rid of Dick.
He certainly doesn't but he does need to posses the girl to get out of the room.

Sam had an alternative when he killed the nurse in Lucifer Rising, he could have gone with Dean. Dean had an alternative when he tortured demons in Let it Bleed, he could have tried Castiel or gone looking for Ben and Lisa the old fashioned way. Castiel could have gone to Sam and Dean with his fears, he chose to go after the souls. However, as I said above, desperate times call for desperate measure. Sam, Dean and Castiel choose this way despite all the conflict and inner turmoil it caused them, because it was the path of least resistance and it was the path they believed was right.

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I believe things get an evil turn when you start to show disrespect to human lives, harming people for whatever reason by justifying it in ‘the greater good’. Like nuking and entire town just to get hid of ‘one little witch’ (ITGP,SW). Wasn’t there a better way, one that not unnecessarily kill everyone? I think the same thing applies here – there is a better way, there is no need to harm the maid.
Very, very true. It’s the start of a slippery slope. However, other side of that bitch of a coin, if the town in It’s the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester was nuked and the witch was destroyed, no seal would be broken and there would be no Apocalypse. I dare say if the Apocalypse came to pass and half the population burned, there'd be many a person out there who would lament that the town wasn't nuked.

Pragmatic bitch here but this is a war, it’s not some random salt and burn. Sam and Dean saw this in Jus In Bello. Sacrificing Nancy would have saved half a dozen people. They didn’t and everyone died, including the girl they saved in the first place. (FYI, I’m not endorsing murder, just that, quite often, the 'right' decision isn't always the 'best' decision.)

And think of the possible ramifications of Bobby not doing what he did, one woman would be fine but hell, odds are she’d become Leviathan fodder at some stage.

And may I ask, what if possessing the lady is the better way? Bobby doesn't know what's going to happen next. Would Sam or Dean sacrifice themselves if they were the righteous mortal? Yep. However, would they kill a righteous mortal to get his/her bone if it was needed to stop the destruction to the human race that the Leviathans were keen on? It’s very idealistic to say they wouldn't but.....

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Sorry, I was saying that in those situations Dean was trying to protect Sam and Bobby from themselves (forgot the themselves word!). As a hunter, Bobby should know that it’s their jobs to put themselves (Bobby, Sam, Dean) in the line of fire to protect innocent lives, not put innocent lives in the line of fire to protect hunters, even loved ones! If he wants to stab Dick to protect the boys, as he is already dead and cannot be further harmed, feel free, but leave the girl alone! Find another way to get close to Dick!
Thing is, there is a bit of a time limit on this. Dick has Kevin, they still need to find the bone of a righteous mortal and cajole Crowley into giving them blood while, at the same time, people are already being turduckened. There isn’t a lot of time to find another way.

Secondly, Bobby couldn’t get out of the damn room! He was stuck in the safe, he didn’t know the code and he needed to use her to get out, not to protect himself. There is absolutely no indication that Bobby will use the lady to stab Dick. Why on earth would he? He’s invisible, something that would be damn handy when facing off against Dick Roman. I dare say that a middle aged woman, walking like a hunter but dressed as a maid, walking into Leviathan headquarters would raise an eyebrow or two, if she even made it past the door.

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But I grant you, Sam and Dean should have tried to better reason with Bobby, to make him try to see their side. This does not, however, justify what Bobby did.
The thing is Vivian, I’m not excusing what Bobby has done. I’m not saying what he did was right but I’ve spent way too many hours trying to figure out why Sam and Dean did what they did because I don’t believe that, just because of their unique circumstances, the decisions etc they made are bad or wrong (I’ve had a lot of practise with Sam in this regard......) Now it’s Bobby’s turn.

And the thing is, were I in Bobby’s situation and the two people I loved so much I gave up eternal peace for them were putting themselves in danger getting what was needed to kill the Leviathans and I could do something about it, I can’t be sure I wouldn’t do the same thing that Bobby did in this instance. I’d love to be idealistic and say I wouldn’t do it but hey, if you can’t be honest to a bunch of random strangers on a public internet site, then where can you be??

That being said, I’ve no doubt that Bobby will go after Dick and he will be wrong to do so because he’ll screw things up yadda yadda. Sam and Dean need to shown as having made the right decision in relation to what they were doing with Bobby because they have to start putting things back in the win column, and I assume the show will start with Bobby. He can’t be saved unless he’s shown doing wrong.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 21:44
Tim, thank you for your replies. Yes, that IS fun! Hard work for me, though, I’m kind of a slow writer! Although I earn my living writing, and I love it. Go figure!

First, your Dirk comments were hilarious! Ha! But I disagree with them. The consequences of Dirk’s possession were not light. The girl was locked in an institution wondering what the hell happened, am I crazy, am I a murderer? Everybody was thinking the same about her (her parents, etc…). That would be enough to destroy a person’s entire life. Doesn’t need to be physical harm to be bad, mental harm can be much worse, and more difficult to cure. And reckless endangerment isn't a crime in the US, even if the person does not get hurt? Nobody has the right to put another in a dangerous situation.

And yes, Bobby should have waited for the boys. Too many ‘IFs’ in your comment. The situation was not THAT desperate when Bobby decided to possess the maid. Nothing of the things you described was confirmed (the boys were not dead, etc) and the world was not about to explode in the next few minutes. If he was thinking rationally, he would have waited. The problem is, he is not able to thing rationally in vengeful spirit mode.

The same with the ‘nuke the town’ situation. Too many ‘IFs’. It was just one seal out of 66! Save the other seals, the ones that don’t need to have a town nuked to be saved. Call me crazy, but I prefer to wait until the last possible minute before I take the decision to murder thousands of people. Have to think about all the alternatives first.

Sometimes is not about taking the ‘right’ decision. The drastic one might only happen to be the ‘lazy’ one. Put some effort in it and you might find a better solution, and in time.

I still think the ‘Jus in Bello’ decision Dean made was the right one. First, because I think Ruby/Lilith orchestrated the whole thing to make Ruby look good. Second, even if the situation was not orchestrated by Ruby/Lillith, between two plans that might work or not, the first involving ripping the heart out of a virgin girl and the other saving everyone without having to commit murder, I prefer the last one. A demon might have escaped and alerted Lilith in any of those two situations. If the consequences of your decision were not good, well, you cannot foresee or predict everything. It could have been as bad if you have taken the other path.

It was Bobby that assumed the risk of being stuck, attached to the flask, if it was stolen or the boys killed. No innocent should have to suffer because of his decision.

Sam and Dean’s fear for what Bobby would do in the front line is quite reasonable. Bobby is not ‘pure’ Bobby now, he is clearly unstable and they don’t know what to expect from him anymore. He might help or he might screw everything up forever. The situation is too much delicate for them to risk it. No margin for error. I just think they should have tried to reason with him some more. If it is even possible now.

It’s hardly the first time Bobby sees people he loves facing death, starting with Sam and Dean. But they cannot trust him how far he would go now to save them. I believe there are certain things Bobby would never do while alive, as there are things that Sam and Dean would never do either, even to save each other.

Yes, I think Sam, Dean and Castiel made the wrong decision in all the episodes you indicated, and all for the wrong reason – PRIDE. The motive was not ‘kosher’, therefore that was not a valid/justified alternative. Shame on them! As for killing the righteous mortal for the bone, well, we would have to see all the circumstances first before judging their action.

By all means, of course, tell me you mind as I’m telling mine! That is the magic of the internet, no need to pretend if you don’t want to!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-05-17 07:48
Vivian, I’m not putting in your full quote because there’s a symbol limit. (Only 10,000! Jeez, what is this, twitter?!? Only kidding Alice, I'm going to use some of my precious symbols to give you a thumbs up!)

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The consequences of Dirk’s possession were not light.
Nope, but in SPN terms, the victims were relatively unscathed. Screwed in the head for a while maybe but in physical terms, the only terms that seem to matter on SPN, they were unscathed. Will they be troubled by it? Oh yeah, definitely but young minds heal fast. They might have thought the water was spiked or they ate a bad (or good!) brownie or some shit like that. And so far, ghost Bobby hasn’t used the maid to kill anyone or shove their hand in a blender, just to open a safe. (Though like I said, I’m fully expecting Bobby to kill her, eat her and possible wear her clothes by the end of next episode to show just how evil, as a ghost, he really is.)

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And yes, Bobby should have waited for the boys.....
Why? They three of them came up with a plan which the boys reneged on the moment they locked him in a safe. Why should he now just sit and wait and trust them to come back and let him help? What makes Sam and Dean’s judgment more trustworthy than Bobby?

Quote:
Too many ‘IFs’ in your comment.... Nothing of the things you described was confirmed (the boys were not dead, etc)...
I do have a habit of positing hypothetical situations in my comments because I find it helps me to put myself into that situation. However, you only need to consider any one of them to be a possibility and it would put a different spin on Bobby’s decision to do what he did. May I ask, if Bobby’s decision to possess he lady was used to save Sam and Dean rather than go after Dick Roman, would you find it so objectionable?

Secondly, if the situation were not desperate then why did Sam and Dean go to take out the Alpha Vamp then and there, without a viable plan? (‘Charge in there, machetes blazing’ isn’t a viable plan!) Why didn’t Sam and Dean take a little time out, do a little consorting with angels or demons to try and bring Bobby back or talk to him? Why didn’t they try to bring Emily back to her parents before they went to the Alpha Vamp? Every situation on SPN is a desperate situation, and if it’s not desperately desperate then it can turn that way in less than a heartbeat. Bobby’s head found that out in How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters.

Why did Dean make a deal so soon after Sam died? Dude wasn’t going to get any more dead so what was the rush? Why did Sam decide to say yes, and then say yes, in such a relatively short period? Desperate situation.

Add to that, for all Bobby knew, the boys could have been dead or in danger. It’s not as if Bobby could be informed. I know were are a lot of ‘if’ questions there but do you not think Bobby would be asking himself those very same questions, going through those scenarios, and more? I seriously doubt it would be a case of Bobby sitting down to watch a bit of TV while Sam and Dean were out trying to get the blood of an Alpha Vampire (and I’d consider that a desperate, dangerous situation).

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It was just one seal out of 66! Save the other seals, the ones that don’t need to have a town nuked to be saved. Have to think about all the alternatives first.
vivian, this whole ‘It was just one seal out of 66’ is a very slippery and dangerous slope. First of all, they didn’t know what the seals were, just that there were over 600 of them and only 2 Winchesters. Sam and Dean didn’t know which of the 600 odd were going to be broken. The demons (and angels) weren’t picking and choosing what seals to break based on damage limitation. We only saw the breaking of a tiny fraction of them, and even those had consequences (fishermen going blind, 66 schoolchildren dead, species going extinct). What if Sam and Dean took the same attitude into saving the next seal ‘We’ll let this one go, we’ll save the next one’, and they did it again, and again. The next seal might not involve nuking a town, but a city or a rabbit! The 'next' seal might be the 66th seal.

Also, Sam and Dean hadn’t prevented any seals from being broken at this stage because they were always ten steps behind the demons. Who is to say that they wouldn’t arrive too late when the next dozen seals were being broken? The schedule of seal breaking wasn’t posted on www.demonmonthly.com. This was the first chance they got to prevent a seal from being broken; it was highly likely they would not get the chance again.

And what if, in all the thinking about the alternatives, you were too late. Would you be happy with the result of your hesitancy? The sit and wait approach, while admirable, is not always the best approach. We’ve seen incidents of this all through history when world leaders have had to take a bloody, proactive approach because the alternative would have been even bloodier.

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Sometimes is not about taking the ‘right’ decision. ...
It is about making the right decision (or trying to), it has to be. Hopefully the right decision is one that is both practically and morally right but very often, it doesn’t pan out that way so a decision has to be made as to which is the more weighty, their morals or the result. And with all due respect, there would be nothing lazy about making the decision to let a town burn or to sacrifice an innocent. Very often the lazy thing is to walk away from it and hope for an alternative. Imagine if Sam had done that in Swan Song?

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I still think the ‘Jus in Bello’ decision Dean made was the right one........
In Jus in Bello, Dean made the morally correct decision; it’s debatable whether it was the right one. Who was it right for? Despite that ‘right’ decision, everyone died and Lilith still found out. So, was the decision to not kill Nancy the best decision to make or was it the easy decision to make?

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It was Bobby that assumed the risk of being stuck, attached to the flask, if it was stolen or the boys killed. No innocent should have to suffer because of his decision.
Yep. No innocent should ever have to suffer for another’s decision but they do, every minute of every day. That is the consequence of almost every action we take. Very many of the decisions we make are based on emotion and not on logic and that is something every character on Supernatural (hell, everyone in the world) is guilty of; making a decision in the heat of passion. Dean begged Sam not to kill John, though logically it would have been the best, and right, thing to do. Given the aftermath, Dean’s decision at Cold Oak was completely illogical because leaving Sam dead would have been the best, and right, thing to do. Logically, John or Dean should have put a bullet in Sam the moment they found out what he was. Logically, Sam should never have dealt with Ruby. Logically, Bobby should have killed his zombie wife as soon as he saw her. Hindsight is 20/20 but it would be a cold, dark, sterile, loveless world if everyone acted solely based on logic and not on emotion.

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Sam and Dean’s fear for what Bobby would do in the front line is quite reasonable..
This is where my problem with the situation is. Sam and Dean assumed from day one that Bobby would screw up; they didn’t even consider the helping part of it. Add to that, is Bobby, even as a ghost, any more screwed up than Sam was in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7 (and I, 2, 3...)? Is Bobby in a better head place than Dean who earlier this season was willing to let the world to go to pot? Up until his decision to possess the lady, all of Bobby’s decisions could logically be argued to make sense, and it was Sam and Dean who were acting on emotion.

Also, for something with which there was no room for margin of error, Sam and Dean seemed to be very much pulling it out of their ass as they went along in relation to the Alpha Vamp. They hadn’t a plan beyond ‘Go in and get his blood’.
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........ I believe there are certain things Bobby would never do while alive, as there are things that Sam and Dean would never do either, even to save each other.
They’ve done a lot. Bobby enabled a town of zombies to ‘live’ (I don’t know what word to use in relation to them!), Sam allowed vampires to walk free, Dean dealt with demons, things they would never have done if they were acting purely on logic. And they were alive when they did them......
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-05-17 07:49
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Yes, I think Sam, Dean and Castiel made the wrong decision in all the episodes you indicated, and all for the wrong reason – PRIDE.....
I'm a bit confused here (and I had to google 'kosher' and I'm still not sure what it means....). Which decision was based on pride, Sam or Dean's? I don't think there was much pride from Sam when he was debating whether or not to kill Nancy, there was a distinct lack of it. Dean showed pride because he refused to lower his ideals and his morals in making his decision. His morals, his pride, would not let him deal with a demon and they would not let him kill an innocent. However, that decision led to numerous horrific deaths.

Quote:
By all means, of course, tell me you mind as I’m telling mine! That is the magic of the internet, no need to pretend if you don’t want to!
I know, that’s the best (and worst) thing about it! I am however, curtailing the amount of time I spend commenting from here on in. No more writing comments at 2am on a damn school night because I’m like an absolute cut cat now because of it. God help any kid who forgets their homework today cos I’ll be going full on Leviathan on their ass.
mer
# mer 2012-05-15 13:56
I always enjoy reading your reviews and appreciate what you say in them.

I agree with what you say. That is all. I will not ramble on about this episode because I couldn't say it better than you.

Jared said he thinks Sam and Dean will die and I agree with him. He said that they'd keep hunting as long as they lived. On that note, I do want to say that for the next (?last?) season, I hope Sam and Dean reconnect with all or at least some of the people they helped in the past, notably in S1-5. I think that would help the writers.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-05-15 14:04
Hey Nolanola, I hate the jacket too. For one, it's too small and looks like he wouldn't be able to zip it up if needed. Not a worthy jacket for a badass hunter like Dean! It almost seems he has been moonlighting as a male model instead of hustling pool or poker. :D And the colour? :-x

Let them find him another cool jacket just like his dad's. One that would be worthy of THE DEAN! 8)

As for the episode, I enjoyed it a lot, mostly because of the rapport between the brothers which I've mostly been missing for the last four years, and that lovely Alpha Vamp who is mesmerizing. Let's keep him for a good while! ;-)

I've only really not liked two episodes this year. "Defending Your Life" (is that the right name?) as the opportunity for Sam to show Dean how very much he values him, in his defense speech, was absolutely wasted. So disappointed in that one. Then there was Sam marrying Becky! :-x The only thing good about that was Garth and the smarmy demon. I never want to lay eyes on Becky again! Outside of those two, I've thoroughly enjoyed this season, except for Bobby dying! It's my favourite season since season 3.
Glad I'm not of a reviewer mind set! :-*

Like your posts NOANOLA, as they are so optimistic and positive. :-)
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-05-15 14:40
AWWW SCHUCKS....MISS . BEVIE. THANK YOU.

I ONLY LOVE BLACK LEATHER. WHAT EVER COLOR THAT IS AS CHILDREN WE CALLED IT PLEATHER (PLAY LEATHER =D )
EireneS
# EireneS 2012-05-15 18:29
My first impression of the jacket was the color was wrong for Dean-he tends to have dark colored clothes and the jacket is a very bright (in comparison) color. Thought the pockets on the outside looked too feminine for masculine Dean. However, read that Jensen and some other crew/producers decided Dean needed a new leather jacket to replace the Dad's jacket that was stolen, so they made this jacket custom with Jensen and crew/producers suggestions. Jensen OK'd the color and design. Dad's leather coat was really cool-used and durable-but really too big for dean (just a little in the sleeves). So, at first glance, I did not like the jacket a lot but as I watched the episode, it grew on me and so now, it's OK.
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 11:27
Hi, EireneS

Remember when Jensen wore that cool black leather jacket during con? sooo yummy... he definitely looked handsome in it. I caught him wore it twice or was it different leather jacket? Anyway, it looks good on him and It Is Tight. I'm not gonna objectify Jensen here, though I very much want to, but Jensen likes tight press bodied leather Jacket as opposed to "Dad's" too big leather jacket.

But yeah, the color. Suppose the crew has another one like that but with black color and ask Dean to wear it. Let the fans judge it.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-05-16 13:42
Ah, but that's what Jensen likes. What would DEAN like?

Get that one in black and the next size up, and maybe it would be acceptable. ;-) And I objectify Dean a lot!
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 16:50
Hi, Bevie

I actually not sure what Dean would like. Just like I'm not sure if Dean is actually like 'dad's jacket' because he likes it.
In Dream a Little Dream of Me when Dean was confronted with his inner self. He was accused that he was always daddy's little blunt tool.

"You don't have a mind of your own don't you? Your fav music? that's dad's. Your leather jacket? that's dad's."

Dean is so hungry for dad's approval. Even he said to Sam in Jump The Shark that "I tried so hard to like dad. Listen to his music. but it turns out you are more like dad than me."

Dean's opinion on 'dad's leather jacket is blinded by his hunger for the man's approval. Does he likes Dad's jacket? Yes because it's dad's. Does he likes it because he actually, honestly, really, really likes it. As in his taste? I don't think even Dean can give us that answer honestly.

But yes, the color is too feminine. I had a leather pants with that color once. lol.
I agree to let Dean try on at least a size bigger and black leather jacket and with less pocket. Just to see him modeling it out for the fans. *here's my attemp at objectifying Dean* ;)
Beside, Babby returns next episode. Red is soooo clashing with black.
Ann
# Ann 2012-05-15 14:12
Nice review, Alice. I also didn't hate this episode but it left me angry due to all of the wasted opportunities. I've spent quite a bit of time blaming the writers but have been wondering if maybe the writing is subpar due to lack of direction in the overall story line. I wonder if the writers are being rushed and if that might account for the lack of originality and the plot holes.

I like the character of Dick as he is a reminder that the most dangerous people are those with charisma who have the power to influence others, ex. John Edwards. Edgar and the Alpha Vamp are wonderfully manacing. I also like where they seem to be going with Bobby. All of the pieces are there but something just ain't clicking. Still looking forward to the finale and, if it's a Sera Gamble script, I hope she goes out with a bang (I mean that in a good way).
Cathia
# Cathia 2012-05-15 14:29
Great review, and I was afraid that I am the only one who has mixed feelings about it (don't usually read other reviews than yours, Alice). I couldn't wait to see it because Crowley was in it, and I am his faithful servant, but...

Like you said, it was chaos. That Emily girl... My husband was saying all the time that she is associated with vamps by her free will. I felt the same too, but I have seen the photos earlier, so I knew. It was hell obvious... but not two our little virgins, Sam and Dean Winchester. C'mon, it's Season Seven...

I am someone who loved Season Six as it kept going and while I am rewatching it, I feel the same. But when it comes to Season Seven... No, too many fillers, too many totally unused themes and characters (especially Amy Pond :D, who was an excuse for that lame split up and so boring episode with Osiris).

Looking forward to the finale - I have a feeling that Crowley's having an ace in his sleeve. And the Baby is back!!!!
Airbat
# Airbat 2012-05-15 15:50
Quote:
You can tell the writers are fatigued
...and so am I.

Nedless to say that I agree with all the above and sadly the best thing about the season finale is the end of this season.

While it had it's great moments of the first two episodes or slash fiction or time after time, there where far too many misses to overlook. Most of the season I had to guess and assume what's up with Sam, and was slapped with Dean's depression to a point I got depressed myself.

Missed oportunities should've been the theme of this season and this episode. You said, you don't need the brother shedding tears. Well, I for one wouldn't mind some. Remember those great moments in AHBL2 or when Dean told Sam about hell or A very Supernatural christmas? Those where times I feel the brothers were connected. Hell, even when they beat each other up for that matter. Now they seem to care about each other like two partners in a crime series. If I'd watched "CSI: Supernatural" I wouldn't see a difference. The Non-Impala talks constructed, akward and mostly passionless.

It feels to me like the supernatural fight their war between themselves and the Winchesters just happen to pass by. Like the Alpha did with Edgar. I know heaven and hell did so too in Season 5, but at least it was on a personal level for the boys, they were vessels. This year they felt mostly sidelined, locked away in a room. Most of the times unable to get out of a situation without help. To show us that they're still trying to save people they brought in the little boy. Didn't the Alpha mention that he had about 11 kids at the moment (I may have gotten that fact wrong)? So they chose to take the one and leave the others? Sam suddenly out of the blue all teary eye over the boy? I felt like they wanted to force it down my throat that Sam is still the caring guy from seasons ago. I don't want to imply that he isn't but really where has subtlety go (and where was this Sam all season)?

I found the girl story completely unnecessary to the storyline and a waste of time which could've been better used....for i.e. Bobby's story.

This episode reminded me a lot of The Born-Again Identity. Too much squeezed into one episode and the episode being all over the place.

I was kinda hoping that the last few episodes will pick up again. But except the "The girl.." episode and the one scene where Dean threw off the Sorry! game board of the table I don't recall much from the last leg of this season. And truth to be told I don't even expect anything from the finale episode by now.

For me this episode and this season alike will sadly remain a bitter aftertaste where some great scenes will be squashed under a hole mountain of "I didn't like".
EireneS
# EireneS 2012-05-16 02:50
Airbat. I believe the alpha vamp said he only had the one child there at the time and that's why Dean and Sam took only one.
alysha
# alysha 2012-05-15 16:25
I completely agree with you Alice. I think the biggest problem is that there has been no larger story with which to frame the smaller episodes. You have to have direction on this type of show/genre.

There was a lot that was good, but the mood and the urgency was all wrong.
Thisoldbag58
# Thisoldbag58 2012-05-15 17:52
I agree with many here. This season was full of potential and so much of it was wasted. I could write pages about what could have been done but was left to lie. I have enjoyed this season very much, but you are right, it has lacked urgency and suspense. I had real hope after the first two episodes but everything after that has been good...but not compelling. I don't think they will address any of these items now as we are clearly focused on Dick and Bobby...but I can always have hope for next season.
fanotheboyz
# fanotheboyz 2012-05-15 18:49
Wow! I couldn't agree with Alice and you more than I do. I agree about the emotional scenes. The only reason I think they didn't go there is the whole "burned out Winchesters" theme of the season. There was repair/healing, but not really any emotional healing/connect ion between the brothers. Although they are working together and on good terms, so much has gone unsaid, and so many opportunities missed(by the writers), that I don't know where they'd start, but I hope they do.

As far as the rest of "what didn't work", I absolutely agree. Too disjointed, flat, slow, unnecessary stuff, and forced humorless jokes. Yes...enough of Dick jokes. PLEASE. I also agree that the girl was obvious, unnecessary, and there was no reason the boys should have been so clueless.

As far as Bobby, who DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY wonder how he could go and recon the mansion? They need to either bring him back bodily or say their sad goodbyes.

I will watch the finale, because I love the show, but I'm only cautiously, slightly optimistic at this point.

Oh..I dig the jacket; not necessarily the color, but cool that he has one again.
Thisoldbag58
# Thisoldbag58 2012-05-15 19:03
They really need to bring Bobby back for real. I wouldn't mind a few episodes of him running into walls after all that time as a ghost.
Bookdal - Linda
# Bookdal - Linda 2012-05-15 19:45
Alice,

I enjoyed your review and wanted to comment on few things that I thought about as I was watching:

1. Teenage girl victims. I know they have a tendency to be part of the show's landscape, but it just seems that we've gotten more than usual or perhaps it's just because the writing has been poorer that this particular type of character has just been more noteworthy. They are less than sympathetic these days as well.

2. Political commentary. The whole Sucrocorp, high fructose corn syrup, obesity anvil doesn't really work for me. The thing I loved about the first five seasons was that the show was making a lot of philosophical points, but these points were embedded in a story. But since the mid part of season six and Cas's war in heaven, the anvil over the head commentary about tyranny, corporate and governmental, has been a little too obvious. I don't need to taught to, thank you very much, show.

3. Brotherhood. The brotherhood is awesome and the center of the show, but more and more I feel disconnected from it. Perhaps it's a product of the emotional disconnect that you noted Alice or perhaps it's fatigue plus the disconnect. In any case, I feel like in some ways the brothers have settled for fighting together rather than seeing the fight as something they should do together. If that makes sense?

I thought there were great scenes in the episode including the Alpha Vamp and the humor about the food, but overall I thought it was a weak outing. I hope that it feels better in retrospect after this week's episode.

Thanks, Alice, for sharing some of your thoughts. They made me think more about my own reactions to the episode.

-bookdal
MisterGlass
# MisterGlass 2012-05-15 21:24
Alice, thanks for your review. I am also on the borderline with this episode, but I haven't figured out which side I'm actually on.

This is another instance where, much like last season and the Angels' Civil War, I wish some of the plot points thrown out in the last two episodes had been distributed back across the season. Looking back, the only episodes where it seemed to me as though Show was on track were the first two. They set up excellent possibilities, and the rest of the reason failed to follow through. There were fun moments to be had, but there was a lot that was dropped along the way.

I think my final opinion of this episode won't crystallize until I've seen the finale, and see just how well the segue works. Strange as it is, I'm also ready for a hellatus.
lala2
# lala2 2012-05-15 22:07
I just had to reply and say I couldn't agree more with you in that the season went off-track with 7.03 and it remained derailed for the rest of the season.

The first two episodes set up things very nicely. Sam's hallucinations were interesting then. Bobby's home had blown up. Dean seemed to be on the edge of a breakdown. Even the Leviathans were interesting to me at that time.

It's like everything was ruined withthat lame Amy drama. I'm still upset that so much time and episodes was wasted on that nonsense. Time where we could have been seeing how Sam was coping with his hallucinations and seeing his struggles, time where they could have been giving Dean a better story or at least better developing his depression arc, time that could have been spent on developing the Leviathans - all wasted on a completely pointless arc. What did we learn from the Amy saga? How did the characters grow and develop as a result of that story? How was the central plot furthered? We learned nothing from the Amy saga. The characters learned nothing. They don't grow. The main plot wasn't furthered. It was a huge waste of time.

This season has been very disappointing to me. I liked Season 6 but must say that Season 7 has been awful. It's my least favorite season ever, and just may fall into the "hate" category. I've never hated a season but there's a first time for everything! LOL!
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-05-15 22:17
I feel the same way, Alice, especially in just getting this season over with and hope that Carver can do something to fix the show.

We aren't seeing an emotional connection to the story from the brothers because the story; once again, is not about the brothers. We're had nothing but stories about support characters, some of which we've seen in one episode. For instance, look at Fruit Cake Cas now. Sam was used as a tool to re-introduce Cas back into the series. Dean was a tool to the GhostBobby story and is now used as Cas's straight man. There's more attention being paid to the Meg/Cas thing than the broken friendship of Dean and Cas. Dean's still drinking, but not on alcoholic levels. By all appearances, his depression is gone, and the revenge against Dick was just Dean being used as a placeholder until Bobby reappeared as a ghost.

Quite frankly, I was disappointed to read on the CW Cast website that Misha Collins is now listed as a cast member. I think that means he'll be a regular next season, which means that Carver had input in that decision. Although I am going to give Carver a chance to try to fix this mess of a show, my expectations for S8 are quite a bit lower now. I really am hating the Fruit Cake character they've given Cas and, quite frankly, I can only see the Cas the cast member as the resident dues ex machina again or as the third Winchester in the back seat of the Impala -- and neither of those options makes me happy. I was okay with Cas being in S8 on a limited basis, but I am not okay with a third cast member.

Look at the development Bobby has gotten this season -- put on a pedestal as the greatest hunter alive and loving step father to two hunters in training, two episodes to die, did he or didn't he go with the reaper, he didn't, will Bobby go vengeful.

And what is the discussion about the finale?

I'm not even going to go into the Cas/Meg thing or will Crowley double cross the brothers or not. What I am going to pay attention to is who survives the season for Carver to play with. I think that will tell a lot about whether the brothers will get their show back or whether an ensemble cast is planned.

As you point out, the production team, the directors, and the actors are delivering (despite some editing problems). That pretty much puts everything on the writers just phoning it in, which means there are serious behind the scene problems on the show. There is no other explanation when writers who have reached this level in their careers (TV network jobs) are making the glaring mistakes they are making (Emma telling the brothers she has been fed by IV for 12 years while sipping a cup of tea or Bobby and his tied and not tied to the flask in back-to-back scene). If the fans can pick these kinds of mistakes out, the showrunner most certainly should have...but the writers shouldn't have even had those kinds of mistakes in their script to begin with.

Rant over. Just end the season and hope better things come from S8. Nothing in the finale can possibly fix this disappointing season.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-05-15 23:45
CHEESE & RICE....GINGER. U SURE U ARE NOT A COMEDIAN?...... .....I AM DYING. YOU LEAVE NOTHING LEFT ON THE BONE.

SAD THING IS, IT IS ALL TRUE !!!!!!!!!!!!! I am crying laughing. +force forgive me.

WHAT IS UP WITH ALL THE EMMA'S & PREGNANT REFERENCES???? LATER PEOPLE. GOT TO, GOT TO, GO.
EireneS
# EireneS 2012-05-16 02:54
Just an observation-Emi ly did have a cup of something in her hand, but she did not sip from it-just held it close to her face like she had sipped from it. She was just playing the guys, with the intent of keeping her blood pure for "daddy"
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 11:45
I honestly re-watched Live free and Twi-Hard just to see who's the writer. I thought the writer is the same with ''There Will Be Blood" but no. So, actually the writers are consistence with the history of the Alpha vamp.
When I re-watched S6E05 again I am more and more interested on the Alpha vamp. His indulgence with children is creepy and curious.

I saw a splitting blood cell and a magically appeared twin. Those twin girls are vampire. So either the Alpha vamp turned children or he spawn them. I thought it will be developed this season but no. We only now get to see the Alpha vamp. I'm happy that he will be back next season because there are potential to develop that storyline.

I never saw Dean elaborate of what he saw in his trance to Sam or Bobby. There is something going on there other than just a pedophile creep. It's marvelous that in S1 John stated that Vampire doesn't exist anymore until they met a gang of vampires near the end. Then we get Elenor the friendly vampire, then we get hunter turned vampire and now the Alpha vamp. The legend and canon of vampire keeps evolving steadily. I like it. Funny that it's the only constant and consistence of this season.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 13:01
Totally off topic, but I suddenly came up with a theory about Sam's mental illness while rewatching Out with the Old, the snow scene, where Dean says "you know it's not real' and Sam answers 'tell it to the mind control here'.

Please, bear with me.

Of course, everybody remembers that when Sam jumped into the Pit in “Swan Song”, Lucifer was inside him. Sam had just won the mind control match against him and that must really had pissed Luci of! Totally loosing control over a human, the race he so much despised! Before Sam said yes, he defied Sam, and was so sure of himself he even “took the gag of” while screwing with Sam’s head (all of it in Swan Song).

Now, I imagine that in the Pit, as childlike as Luci is, he did everything he could to regain and reaffirm his mind control power over Sam’s, making him see, imagine and feel things, all inside his head. So, Sam became kind of used to having Luci in his head, controlling his mind. That is why he hallucinated Luci and it was so difficult to him to distinguish hallucination form reality, until Dean helped him figure it out, at least temporarily, in HCW.

But I guess Luci’s influence inside Sam’s head was so strong, and was there for so much time, that eventually Sam was not able to fight it off, even if Luci was not really inside his head any more, a fight that, in the end, exhausted him. I gather part of what Sam was feeling and thinking was himself, and part was Luci’s taunting thoughts (the way he refers to Dean as “Mr. Helpless”, etc.), that became almost crystallized inside his head due to repetition. As Hall!Luci said in “The Bourne-Again Identity”: “I won! Your madness won”, as if saying, you won in Swan Song, but I NOW I WON! You will only be able to see me or what I want you to see!

Cas wasn’t able to ‘cure’ this influence inside Sam’s head, so he shifted it to himself.

Thoughts?
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 13:15
Ehmm... I dunno but I think Sam said "tell it to the volume control in my head" Or maybe I'm wrong.

ETA: just re-checked. Yup. Sam said and I quote "Yeah yeah well tell it to the volume control in my brain"
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 16:05
Oh, ok, thank you for correcting me, I didn't hear that!

But it doesn't invalidate the theory, what do you think?
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 23:34
Mmmm...ok. I will try vivian.

My theory.

I have to admit that I am overwhelmed when I think about Sam's time in hell. I have a tendency that when I'm thinking about something I imagine what will happen if it happened to me. It's just the tool that I use when i write a story. Imagining what my characters would do, or what would do in a given situation and making my characters do it.

I wrote a fic exactly based on your theory above actually. :D but it's totally out of topic.

basically I agree with your topic if it is really Lucifer. Now, what I'd like to establish: Is Sam really see Lucifer? Does he really has a connection with Lucifer from the cage? Or his hallucination is only his manifestation of power struggle within his own mind? Sam spent more than 100 years in the cage. 100 years! Wow! Even I don't know if I'm gonna live that long. So, I just ... wow! If I was in Sam's place... I dunno... I would kill my self , maybe. lol I admire Sam's strength.

My theory is Sam does not really see lucifer. I think it's the same case as a kid who has an imaginary friend. (as long as the imaginary friend is not a ghost). Sam's mind manifesting Lucifer on his own because of the hell memory. Sam's hell memory keeps run amok in his head so his brain produce a hallucination of Lucifer because it's what normally happen in hell.

It's like a habit for Sam's brain. 100 and odd years with only Lucifer as your company your brain sure will pick up the pattern, right? Like If you live for 100 years with someone (loved one maybe, or brutal enemy who always told you how useless you are) You will keep seeing them even though they are gone.

Remember when Sam said in Party on Garth? People keep seeing their dead loved ones because they miss them. You keep seeing you late grandpa sitting on his favorite chair because your brain supply that image because your heart misses him. Not necessary because you see his ghost. I think Sam is alluding to his own condition here.

His mind is sooo used to see Lucifer for 100 and odd years that when he is rescued from hell he misses him. Not in the context of romance but a bit like the Stockholm Syndrom. Sam despises Lucifer soooo much that his hate feeling is latched in his heart and manifested in his mind.

What I feel funny and maybe odd is this... Why do I feel that Sam's manifestation of Lucifer is similar in personality like his brother? Lucifer suddenly likes Rock music? suddenly acts childish? I mean we don't know what Luci's fav music is, we don't know if he really is childish like that. In Season 5 we only get to see Luci in few episodes and all of them depicted Lucifer as arrogance bastard. A mastermind.

I get the feel that Hallucifer has Dean's personality because Sam's the one who imagine him. Who's the person that has been around Sam since he was a baby and always annoy the hell out of Sam? Dean. Dean is practically everything in Sam's life. Sam lived his life around Dean growing up. Sam's brain recreates Hellucifer because the brain is used to Lucifer's presence for 100 and more years definitely beats the time Sam's spent with Dean in his life. Humans are a creature of habit after all.

The way the writer writes Hellucifer actually intrigues me. What are you trying to say here, writer? Why you make Sam imagining Lucifer with Dean's personality? What are you trying to say?
AnnaAmell
# AnnaAmell 2012-05-16 17:16
I guess I'm in a minority as I loved the episode enough to delurk to talk about it. I found the characterizatio n of both boys to be excellent. Sam, I thought, was nervous because the last time they went up against vampires, he was soulless (with all that implied); and the next to last time they fought vampires, soulless him let Dean get turned. That's enough to make Sammy uncomfortable. As for his worry about the kid, that's also very Sam. The reason, again in my opinion, that he hasn't really been that Sam this season is because, until recently, he's been distracted by the devil on his shoulder. As for Dean, I think he's spent most of the season waiting for his brother's crazy to take him over. That happened, but Sam is now ok (and Cass is alive also). The worst happened, but his brother survived it; and now Dean can afford the luxury of caring again.
vivian
# vivian 2012-05-16 18:29
I liked the episode very much too, AnnaAmell!
AnnaAmell
# AnnaAmell 2012-05-17 10:17
I'm glad I'm not the only one!
kaj
# kaj 2012-05-16 23:48
I too like the episode, AnnaAmell.

I'm a sucker for details. There are many points that I like in this epi.
1. The fact that Sam questioned the integrity of Kevin's translation. "Really if we cut the head what do you think to the rest of them? just Drop dead?" I like that they talk about the catch.

2. Sam's talking about Bobby's situation with Dean because he is worried, saying Bobby could burn down the store.

3. Dean's toxic shock and funny moments with food.

4. How Dean's boot matches his jacket in color. although I wanna have Dean try different color next time.

5. Dean's ever ready vamptonine. Remind me of Season 2. When Dean hide weapons everywhere in his body. Gotta love that man. He's a boy scout or hunter scout. whatever.

I think I can see your point about Sam's remembering the time when he was soulless and he let Dean got turned. I can understand that Sam is angry and uncomfortable dealing with the Alpha Vamp. Dean got turned into a Vampire because of the Alpha's recruiting project. They hurt his brother, so he is angry. I can see that Sam's memory during that time trickles in that room. Making Sam angry at the Alpha and also At Him Self.

Sam lost his cool whenever Dean is in danger, right? He even let Lucifer in when he believes Dean is in Danger. This is definitely moments that makes me squee. I love it when the brothers are taking care of each other.
AnnaAmell
# AnnaAmell 2012-05-17 10:21
I was definitely also feeling the squee! Dean really did seem to enjoy having his brother back (even if he wouldn't let him have pie), and Sam really wanted to take care of his brother. I also loved hunter-scout Dean. I'm actually undecided about the jacket, but I'd definitely be willing to see more of it.