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Open Couch to You Can’t Handle The Truth

Or

Be careful, what you ask for
 
Oscar Wilde once said ‘The truth is rarely pure and never simple’. Indeed. Neither are the answers this show has finally begun to give after throwing its audience into turmoil. Well, it put my emotions in a meat grinder more than once and just when I think it can’t get any worse, they go and prove me wrong. 
 
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In Illinois Veritas… After watching the episode for the first time, the title described pretty much how I felt – that I wasn’t able to handle the episode, more or less. Now I’ve calmed down a bit, but still wonder: how am I going to write anything coherent about it? 

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth… great… Most of us believe that it’s important to be truthful to each other, especially to people close to us. But sometimes we forget how terrible a weapon truth can be. People have lied and murdered for the truth or for what they believed to be true. Used with purpose, truth can be the foulest aggression that can drive people to kill themselves (like that poor waitress).
 
Unfortunately, there never is ‘one real truth’. Truth is, mostly, dependent on the viewpoint of the one claiming to tell the truth. That standpoint gives any truth its colour, often tinted with moral, religious or social shades, accompanied by emotions that also influence the description of it. If three people witness an accident, their accounts will diverge. Though seeing the same scene, their experience of the moment is different, according to their state of mind and soul. 

If I had to swear to tell the whole truth someday, I doubt I could do that, as I don’t trust my account of whatever situation would be the whole truth. I could attest to what I believe to be true. 

With Veritas in town, I might even say more than one unpleasant thing. 
 
We lie often in our everyday lives, don’t we? Sometimes a neighbour might come over at a moment we wanted to be alone and yet we say ‘nice to see you, come on in’ (well, I assume most of us who have been brought up to be polite, as I have, would do that). A friend asks for our help with some work in the garden, and though we’d rather stay in and watch a film, we reply ‘sure, happy to be of assistance’, if a good friend is terribly in love with a guy we can’t abide, how often do we say ‘oh, he’s so nice’ before we (hopefully, if the relationship is close enough) say ‘I think he’s a bastard’, if we don’t like the children of our friends, we still cheer ‘oh, how sweet they are’. 
 
These might be what people call white lies, but – bottom line – we are not being honest. Not entirely. I don’t think this essentially wrong. A truth told at an inappropriate moment can hurt more than we could deal with. 
 
We see the effects of unconditional truth thrown into our faces in this episode. The young waitress hears all those nasty things that others think about her, and she finally rings her sister for help – only to hear it rubbed in by the one person who should be at her side, eh? Well, she does kill herself already, then, and BigGerson’s is not a happy place this time (by the way – I love the reference of the show to the wonderful Bad Day at Black Rock).
 
The art of lying

Dean, just as his brother, is a master at the art of lying. It’s the branch they excel at. They are con men. And Dean does here what he does very well – he lies to his brother, yet again, continuing the old Winchester tradition of lying to one another (this time, however, to bring him down). Mostly the purpose of those lies has been protection of the other. Protection from bad news, from fear, from horrors experienced. And we somewhat admired the Winchesters for it, as it meant that they took on the burden of knowing of unspeakable things on their own shoulders, keeping it lighter for the other.
 
Those are the kind of lies we allow, don’t we? We accept the notion that sometimes it might be better to tell a strategic lie when the truth could cause harm to another. 

The Winchesters have also always been experts at bluffing – another kind of lie. With a bluff we try to make someone else believe that we have a goal, a skill or an idea we don’t actually own. Gamblers use this tactic. Athletes do so, too, like pretending they’d run to the right when they plan to take a turn to the left. 

Another field of their expertise is the kind of lie you’d call jocose that means lies told in jest, and everyone present is supposed to understand those (hopefully). We’ve seen Sam and Dean shine at teasing and sarcasm. Plus they have also lied by omission more than once, that is: leaving important information out. 

We, as fans, have never really protested against those. I think because we, ourselves, use those kinds of lies sometimes. I know I do. I can be very sarcastic, and I haven’t told the truth to protect others, too. 
 
But what happens now in our show is very much Machiavellian. In his book ‘The Prince’ the Italian noble claims ‘never attempt to win by force what can be won by deception’.  It’s the true art of war: deception.

And, our favourite characters are at war. Again. This time with each other – or, well, it seems like Dean is in a state of mind very much on the verge of a serious battle. Sam lied to Dean before in this season about his condition because he still doesn’t know what’s going on and how to explain it all.

Dean, now, deceives Sam to find more information about what he might be while secretly planning to kill his brother in his sleep, as he later admits to Veritas. He’s freaked out, and I can’t blame him. But this way he distances himself even more from his brother. 

From a psychological point of view there are three main reasons (among others) why people lie: Fear – of possible consequences involved when the truth came out, also to escape punishment. Harming others – tell a lie to attack someone else, indirectly, by telling lies about them. Self-Image – boost one’s own image in the eyes of their peers or friends/families to get closer to the limelight, often to be replaced by embarrassment when the truth is revealed. 
 
Dean probably is governed by fear. And fear is, as we know, the sister of aggression. It will lead Dean to handle this more and more aggressively in the course of this episode. You could also call it desperate. Bitter. He assumes Lucifer came back in Sam’s skin. Who wouldn’t behave as irritated as Dean does? 

He’s playing various roles at present: the caring brother, the industrious FBI agent, the loving partner (who actually doesn’t dare to speak to Lisa)… thankfully, he’s had some training in pretending since he’s been a kid. He does it convincingly. 

Sam’s FBI guy seems a bit menacing, though. He detects with perfect clarity that the woman they’re asking about her suicidal sister is lying. On the other hand, anyone who read Ekman’s ‘Emotions Revealed’ might have done so. There is a short moment of satisfaction on his face. But basically they have no idea as of yet what’s going on. 

They will learn of the Marathon Man sequence later (one of the grossest scenes in Supernatural history, to my taste. Any dentists out there: never put Frank Talk on the tv in your practice. In fact: don’t have any tv screens there at all. You never know what obsession might befall your patients. On a second thought: that perv touched the doc’s daughter. I can’t say I can’t understand why the dentist loses it).

Comments  

Sablegreen
# Sablegreen 2010-11-02 01:13
Unfortunately Jas, the writers feel this is want people want, so I doubt this will change any time soon. I think the take home message here is, it's just a TV show and we all should not be so invested in it.
Yirabah
# Yirabah 2010-11-02 03:50
On the the other hand Sablegreen, if we wouldn't all be so invested in it I don't think SPN would have such a great fan group which would mean the show might have gone off air a long time ago.

Somehow we all do enjoy the emotional torture the writers put us through. Guess you have to be a masochist to love our show.

Jas thanks explaining so many things in words that everybody should understand and still even though you are not able to give us the answers we are desperatly wanting. Only the writers can do that and hopefully soon.

But maybe I can answer one of your questions. At one point you asked how soldiers wives are able to handle it. I can give you an inside on that one.

Even the emotional weakest woman grows above what she thought she would be able to handle. The soldier wives are an amazing group. I lived amongst them while our husbands where gone more then once on various posts. And I can tell you they look out for each other even if one woman tries to shut herself down in depression at her house you can be sure sooner or later another woman will stand there to invite her to a get together with the other women. The wives talk about everyday live and help each other during those periods there hubbies are gone. They do not think or talk about what their husbands go through or what they do otherwise they couldn't handle looking out for their kids. Once hubby is back they try to get some answers to the questions they never asked to dare while he was gone. They won't get the truth they know but still they had to ask. And then they just keep watching their spouse and treat around him on tip toes for days until they finally believe they have figured out in which kind of state of mind he is in.

But how they really feel. I got an example for that. There is that scene where Dean calls Lisa and tells her that he still has to take care of a couple things and that he will come to see her afterwards. That is when I yelled. "No!! How could you!!" I been through that part myself. Once during the balcan wars our guys were deployed and my hubby had a job were he was able to call everyday home (that was the time before internet and the soldiers normally had to stand in line for hours for a quick phone call home) so we were pretty fortunate. We also passed massages on for others in the company that couldn't talk on an everyday basis. So one day he calls and tells me that he wouldn't be able to call for a few days since he has to go out on patrol and doesn't know how long it will take. The instant he said that I knew it was a lie. It's Dean's I have to take care of a couple things here. When you hear those words you just know that something dangerous is going on, some fights. That is when you start to worry your little heart out. This time with a reason and you know it. It would be better if the guys kept their mouth shut but those dears think those white lies are good for us. Sure thing is the next day the first women called cause their husbands didn't call the day they promised. So the girls wanted to know if I knew what was going on. I was so helpless that I just gave them the same white lie about the patrol even so I was so worried that I was glued to the TV and changing channels between american and german news. And then there it was - a 10 second report of a fight of the american army against some balcans. That was no help except that they said it was over. So I waited another 2 days till the first phone call. We weren't allowed to talk about it on the phone but at least we heard each others voices. First thing after hanging up I called the other wives and told them the guys are back in camp and that they will take turns calling home. And all the wives passed the message on through phone chain. After they got back I talked to my husband briefly about it. Those guys wouldn't let out much as I said the wives have to figure their state of mind out themselves. The actuall reason we talked longer that time was because of the injured they brought home with them.

Sorry that got a little long.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-11-02 03:53
Yesssss, open couch time. I've only read through it once, and first impressions? Go and post this article on every freaking SPN website out there. Mighty stuff!

Can't wait until tonight when I can actually READ it, read it.

Cheers, dear.
Julie
# Julie 2010-11-02 06:17
Jas , Thanks for this.
It must have been a difficult one to write, goodness knows it was so hard to watch. We have to keep believing that things will all work out and be ok, but after last weeks when we thought things could not get worse we were proved wrong again. It makes approaching every episode scary, what more can the Winchesters ( and us! ) take.
I think it showed us two things , Be careful what you wish for` , so many people wishing for Dean to give Sam the much deserved bashing but did anyone anticipate what we watched here, and how many times have said about Dean, how much more can he take? Here we got our answer and I think we saw the final straw and he well and truly snapped, becoming almost unrecognisable in that final scene.
I am not sure what to believe here, I have no idea even if Sam was telling the truth at the end when he asked for help, or just saying what he thought would appease a very angry brother to escape a dangerous situation .
The trailer puzzled me , none of them have ever given us a true indication of what is going to be in the upcoming episode, so the revelation about Sams` soul is obviously not that staight forward. There are so many thoeries and possibilities spinning round my own head but I had not considered your option of Cas lying which is interesting and has thrown another one into the mix, basically what I am saying at the moment is very simple - I DONT KNOW!!!!!
elle2
# elle2 2010-11-02 08:49
Jas,

Another excellent 'session' from you. This season is excellent but it is also disturbing...fo r that I give the writers much credit. I'm beginning to hold on by my fingernails to my long held believe that this show is best judged by the whole (season) and not individual episodes or even sections of a season. Still, 'tis hard not to worry about where we're going with all this.

Thank you for putting fingers to keyboard and giving us this article. Like you, I'm a bit worried (darn TV show!)
Karen
# Karen 2010-11-02 09:06
Hi Jasminka
Thanks for the wonderful analysis. This weeks title was certainly fitting. I think for most we live with being truthful but as you stated there are time we will lie to avoid hurting someone’s feelings. If the situation is not dire, what’s a little white lie once in a while…“No you don’t look fat in that outfit”.

But the problem with our Winchester brothers is their whole lives have been based on lies and deception. Majority of the time it’s to portray as law enforcement or Doctors etc to get the information they need to solve a case.
I have no problem with that, I mean they can’t exactly tell the people the truth.
“Yeah we are supernatural hunters and we believe your husband was possessed by a demon.”

Other times it’s to hide there true feelings in order to protect the other brother from being hurt or scared. How many times did Dean tell Sam during season 1 and 2 that he wasn’t worried about what was happening to him with the physic premonitions, just to help him feel safe.

As for Dean losing it with Sam. Yes it was overboard and brutal and heartbreaking to watch. However I do understand Dean’s frustration and wanting to lash out. Sam has lied to him, deceived him, sacrificed him and because of Sam’s actions he has now lost Lisa and Ben. I know it was Dean’s decision to go to Lisa, that he took it on himself to go and say his thanks and goodbye. But lets face it Dean was not himself at this point with going thru the physical transition. Plus once Sam chose to allow Dean to change into the Vampire, Sam took on the responsibility of Dean. It was up to him to ensure that Dean did not become a threat to anyone else.
And with this beat down I also have to wonder if Dean was even convinced that it was Sam and not a monster. With this Sam being able to lie, how convinced could Dean be again, with his confession of not being able to feel. I think he put down the knife, because there was that small little bit of doubt that it could be Sam, so he couldn’t kill him. But he still had to subdue him. After all he really didn’t know who or what he was up against. Yes he could of played along and got Sam back at Bobby’s and then trapped him. But with Dean’s emotional state at this time, he simply lost it.

As for Sam I really believe he doesn’t know what’s wrong with him and that he doesn’t know who freed him or why. I think that he couldn’t tell Dean the truth because he knew Dean would try to fix the problem and he didn’t want this ability to end. Who would want to go back to feeling the atrocities of what he had gone through in hell? And also if he did know who freed him or made a deal then, why call on Castiel and get annoyed when he didn’t answer him.

I also agree with you on Sam being soulless. It doesn’t make sense that Sam could be soulless when he does display emotions.
Are the only emotions associated with your soul, just sensitivity, compassion and empathy? So emotions like anger, jealousy, panic, scared, humour, concern are part of something else in your body or your brain? I think I need to learn more about the soul.

Thanks for your couch session Jas, and I apologise again for being long winded.
FMJemena
# FMJemena 2010-11-02 10:23
Jas, thank you. Although it will be in the upcoming episode, I don't agree with Cas that Sam came back w/o a soul. I mean, Sam's not acting like a zombie. As you said, He makes decisions, teases people, etc. How can an empty human meat do those?...A traumatized Sam, yes, preferring to damp down on his feelings. But not one w/o a Soul. (Heck, now I'm wary about Cas.)

Maybe this is a clue. Remember the first Season 6 poster? of Sam and Dean grouped together by the artist like one organic whole, yet separated by blood? Maybe S6 is leading to a new evolution of the Dean-Sam relationship? Not necessarily as feuding brothers, but something to do with that "soul mate" remark by Ash. (Not romantic "soul mates" as Kripke and others won't go there in Middle America.)
Ashke
# Ashke 2010-11-02 10:26
I always enjoy your analysis of the Winchester's emotional state. I like the fact that I'm not alone in thinking that they are two of very few characters on tv that seem to be fully developed individuals that may or may not make good choices or do the right thing.

I do believe that our mutual hope for a better relationship between the brothers is in that last second before the credits. Dean really did have a look of "what have I done" on his face. I agree with you I don't necessarily think he was conscious of what he was doing when started the Sam beat down. Although I don't even pretend to know how the writers will make this right I believe that they will. No matter how bad things get (When the Levee Breaks, anyone) the brothers always come together. My only issue is when.

Thanks again.
Suze
# Suze 2010-11-02 11:51
I must have the wrong sort of cats, mine are always leaving bits of bodies all over the shop!

Interesting thoughts on Truth V. Selective Disinfomation. Personally I'm a big fan of the Social Fib. People who make a point of Telling It Like It Is are a total blight ( my Significant Other's Mother is a prime example ... She's never got a good word when five bad ones will do instead ) Little lies oil the wheels of the world and make everyone feel better about themselves. No relationship can withstand the unvarnished truth ... I don't know where this leaves The Brothers W. and the rest of us ... Up Sh*t Creek without a paddle, it seems.

From a dramatic point of view I've enjoyed the last few episodes and I'm in no danger of tuning out any time soon, what I'm not enjoying at all is the writers putting their collective boot through the main characters' main relationship. I know it's only a show and life goes on and so forth but it still pisses me off. I like them united against the world!

Still, on the plus side Lisa managed to bail out without dying nastily and we found out what Bobby gets up to in his spare time ... Love the idea of cosseted pink toeses inside those those butch stompy boots ...
Kalixa
# Kalixa 2010-11-02 14:00
I actually disagree with you about the end being "so unlike everything Dean ever did". We've seen Dean have a similar reaction in the past to stresses that he is incapable of handling - when he took a crowbar to the Impala.

In this case, he simply takes out his frustration and rage on the closest object that means the most to him in the world (Sam's face). Dean's lost Lisa and Ben, been betrayed by this weird new-form of his brother, and can't even be sure that he can believe a single word 'Sam' says. He maybe have been able to handle giving up Lisa for Sam, but I don't think he was prepared to lose Lisa and still not have (the real) Sam.

Dean's at the end of his rope and he doesn't know what to do - and it's a lot like S2 when he was struggling with both the grief over his father and the impossibility of his father's final orders. Sadly, this time, it's Sam that receives his frustration.

I'm not saying he's right to do so, of course. I just don't think it's out of character at all.

I DO believe Cas when he says Sam doesn't have a soul. I don't think a soul means no emotions either - I think it just means no DEEP emotions. Sam knows intellectually what emotions he's supposed to be having, and he has them, but they are felt only on the surface...not in the "heart" or "gut"

Personally, I'm very interested to see where the season goes! So far, it's got me on the edge of my seat. I am, however, worried about Sam's soul and whether it is capable of continuing to suffer without the rest of Sam (as I fear it may still be stuck in the pit).
Bevie
# Bevie 2010-11-02 15:13
I see it slightly differently than you have Jas. Not to say I'm right, but just perceiving it in a different way.

I don't believe Dean was beating his brother to a pulp, but what he believed to be a supernatural being who has been impersonating Sam from the beginning of the season. He ditched the knife as he didn't want to kill the only clue he has as to the present state of his Sammy. I've only seen this kind of viciousness from him in his protective role for Sam. I believe he was convinced of this by Veritas' comment 'You're not human!' I refuse to believe he would dish out that much punishment to his brother no matter what Sam had put him through.

If there is sympathy for Sam or not/Sam now, where is the sympathy for the put upon brother Dean, who feels about Sam as a father for his child? My sympathy for Sam or not/Sam evaporated as he smirked to see his brother in pain and turned to a vampire. I could not believe any more that there was any Sam inside that shell. Whatever the reason, whether his soul is gone (Cas MAY be lying for his own reasons) or that is not the real Sam in any way, that thing we've been watching since the first episode in no way inspires any liking, let alone love in me.

Remember the motto for this season is "Trust no one".

I too want this cleared up as fast as possible as I can't take much more of this chasm that has built up between the wonderful brothers that I fell in love with three years ago. As far as that goes, I will still be watching as the writers have really given us great drama (along with heartbreaking angst) so far this season. Makes needing the next episode viewing imperative indeed.

Also, I really believe Dean loves Lisa dearly and is not just making do to have a family. He could have learned to love her dearly through the year they had together. She is an exceptional woman and perfect for him, and I hope she will still be there when the show ends and we can imagine him going home to her and Ben.
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-02 16:28
Wow, so many comments to address, thank you, kind readers, for speaking your mind!

Sablegreen, you’re kidding right? Of course it’s only a tv show. But one that manages, every damn time, to do something to my emotional balance. That’s one reason why I stick to my life outside of Supernatural, to remind me of that ever so often, but it doesn’t change its emotional impact. If you got a cure – I’m all ears, dear!

Yirabah, thank you for your explaining comment, and – no worries about the rambling. This is the place to do it. I am happy that I could give you something with this article.
Thank you for sharing your personal experiences with me and with us. I can relate, as you know I have been engaged to a naval officer a lifetime ago, and that has been also a quite impressive time in terms of being apart from him while he was out doing what he was doing. It’s interesting to hear how you coped with your story. Thank you so much.

Enchanting Tim (I hope you don’t mind me calling you this), thank you! I hope your opinion will still be somewhere in this neighbourhood after you’ve read it properly…

Julie, dear, we truly live in hope, don’t we?
Seeing Dean snap like this was indeed one of the scariest scenes ever, to me. And I can imagine how you felt about it, since I know how you feel about Dean… Just try to calm your racing mind a bit… it won’t help, I reckon, to speculate, since this show tends to prove us wrong repeatedly. Since they promised us that the brothers will come back to what they have been (well, more or less, after this one I am wary about the chances to repair the relationship, and if they do, it will be a different one), so – let’s just hope that we’ll see some of that!

Elle2, indeed, dear, disturbing, excellent, mind boggling… As much as it’s hard to worry about these amazing fictional characters, it’s also masochistic fun… Therapy, anyone? I’m the first one to sign up…

Karen, dear bard, no apologies necessary for being long winded. I know how many turns a mind sometimes needs to take to get to some coherent thought…
Strangely, I do also understand, just as you say, why Dean had to lash out in this manner, but I’m having a hard time condoning it. I was freaked out to see the “demon” in Dean, that brutality. And I dare not imagine what his conscience will do to him once he truly realizes what he’s done.

I think I will have a look in my private library and see what I can find about the mythology on the soul. Perhaps I can enlighten some aspects next week.

FMJemena, hey, what an interesting penname! I hope you are going in the right direction with your idea. Perhaps they will find out that they are, in fact, one ‘organic whole’, despite all the flaws. It’s an almost poetic thought.

Ashke, I am happy that you find joy in reading what I write, thank you! It’s not hard to describe their psychological state (well, more or less), since they are, indeed, so well drawn. It’s a testament to the talent of the writers, really. We live in hope, eh? Hopefully it won’t take all season for them to come back together. But – we’re completely at the mercy of the darn creative team…

Suze, I agree with you, funny-cats-love r… the drama has been truly spellbinding! I love stories that draw me in like that, it’s just that it’s hard to bear the emotional turmoil every week right now *it’s only a bloody tv show….. it’s only a bloody tv show*

Kalixa, interesting point you have, and I understand what you mean about Dean taking it out on the Impala. True. However, I think we haven’t seen him go this white-noised at a human being, yet alone his brother. With monsters, yes. But family? That’s what shocked me so much. (should you remember another scene with Sam or other close ones, feel free to correct me. Even the end of season four wasn’t as vicious in its brutality to my mind)

And perhaps I wasn’t entirely clear on what I meant with ‘out of character’. I agree that it fits with the character as he is written, I meant that it doesn’t get along with his nature, with the kind of man he usually is. I didn’t mean to make it sound as if I thought the writers had gotten it wrong, my apologies.

Bevie, I hope I didn’t make it sound as if I had no sympathy for Dean. Believe me, I have. It breaks my heart, again, for the guy. But I also see the wrong turns he’s taking.
Your point, as to why Dean beat Sam like this, does make sense. Fascinating idea! I am with you in hoping that both guys will find some peace and Dean a home with Lisa. Perhaps, though, he should tell her sometime that he loves her. It wouldn’t do any harm and it might even help him.

Thank you so much! You honour me with your thought out comments. Love, Jas
nancyL
# nancyL 2010-11-02 20:23
Karen, you are so right, when a wife asks her husband, 'does this dress (shirt, pair of pants, skirt...) make my butt look fat?' She doesn't want him to answer 'damn you could show a movie on your ass' :D :D :D

First, we have the father/dentist getting revenge for his daughter, then we have Lisa going mother bear over Ben.

Which brings us to what did Dean consider his number one job from the time he was four?
PROTECTING SAM. Maybe that is what the beating was also about, that Dean failed to keep Sam safe. Remember his speech to the dead Sam in 'All Hell Breaks Loose: Part Two'. Dean cannot fail at his number one job, and when he does, he gets crazy. (makes deals with demons, beats his brother senseless)

Sam is not showing real emotions. He shows what is expected of him. It is an act.

Come on Friday, but I doubt it will get any better, Cas tells Dean and us the truth about soulless!Sam. Where are my tissues, I think that it is gonna be a bad one this week (not that any of the episodes this season have been fun, they all seem to hurt)
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-02 20:59
You know, nancyL, this show is - to quote dear Randal - keeping Kleenex in business. They probably made a deal of some sort.
We better stock up on those damn tissues. Hell knows I've already been knee-deep in them this season.

Cheers, Jas
BagginsDVM
# BagginsDVM 2010-11-02 23:45
Jas, I love your analysis & explanations of the guys' relationship & their screwed-up lives. It is really hard to remember that this is only a TV show! I blame Jensen & Jared & Jim & Misha for that, for making me care so much about these characters!
Although I love the brothers dearly, right now it is very difficult to like either one of them these past 2 episodes. I didn't think their relationship could have been any worse than the prior 2 seasons, but the writers have proven me wrong.

How I wish Dean could find & acknowledge the goodness deep down in himself! To realize that he is worthy of love & happiness. Nothing in his upbringing & life so far has given him cause to believe that, however. It is my crazy little dream that when the series ends someday, he will get to realize that.
Right now, he's probably in as dark a place as he was when he was actually in Hell. As much as I hated to watch him beat on Sam, I think he still didn't believe that really was Sam, that it was still some monster in Sam's visage.

I don't think Sam knows why he is topside again but does remember everything about Hell, just as Dean did. He has immersed himself in being the ultimate hunter so he doesn't have to think about it. It seemed to me that he does realize now how wrong he's been in thinking he could go on this way & that he does want help. He didn't try to defend himself at all once Dean started the beatdown. I think that was a plea for help.

I'm anxious to see where the writers are going with all this. I really don't want the entire season to be the search for Sam's soul. Bobby got his back quick enough.
And I need the guys back together...soon!

As an aside, I'm a veterinarian, & that remark about the dog blood bothered me. Where did that come from, Sam? Better have been a veterinary blood bank! Jas, I agree about cropping. I refuse to crop ears or dock tails (unless there is a very valid medical reason like a tumor on the tail, etc).

Dawn
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-03 05:34
Dawn, dear, just as you describe I have had a hard time actually liking the brothers, since their actions have shaken me to the core like a storm I thought I could not withstand.

That has changed by now. I feel, as strange as that may seem, a growing affection, as I begin to understand better where they stand at the moment.

I am still a tad desperate about Dean, as he just refuses to accept the facts being thrown to his face: that he is a person deserving of love!
It's not a conscious decision to be made, of course, but he would have to allow himself to give others a chance to actually show him. He's Bobby's favourite. Lisa loves him. Other women have loved him (well, we know of Cassie). Alas, he's too absorbed in his own world of being unworthy that he chooses the path of violence as of now. Externalizing anger and guilt and throwing it on Sam, probably venting some of the old rage because he had felt betrayed by Sam during season four and five.

I agree - I think Sam remembers everything that happened in hell, just as Dean did. And I like your idea of him not defending himself as Dean started beating him - a plea for help? Animals do it this way, don't they - showing the attacker their belly, their most vulnerable spot, thereby acknowledging the other's superiority in a fight.
And, I think, he just wasn't able to return that aggression to his brother at this point as he just didn't have it in him.

Finally, I understand perfectly your viewpoint about cropping. I can't condone that, at all. A friend of mine has a beautiful Rottweiler (great dog, that!) and he still has his tail. It makes him all the more beautiful. and I've seem Doberman dogs looking all cuddly with their 'normal' ears and tails. Come on. Human cruelty proven again.

thank you so much for your comment, Dawn! Cheers, Jas
Karen
# Karen 2010-11-03 08:07
nancyL... :lol: :lol: :lol:
I really hope that line was never used on you.
nancyL
# nancyL 2010-11-03 10:48
karen, LOL :D :D :D
no it never was.
Ellie_444
# Ellie_444 2010-11-03 12:56
Well Sam isnt a animal and to imply he rolled over like one to acknowledge Deans superiority is odd to say the least.Could it just simply be Dean suckered punched him and then by doing that got the upper hand. Sam asked for help I dont quite think he asked for that kind .

As for Dean being loved he doesnt have a lack of that it is Sam who needs to of heard that and hear it . What this episode made my realize is Sam really has nobody . He jumped into a pit because he thought he was the least of all of them and people talk about Deans self esteem issues. But it seems to me for several seasons now going back to Season 3 that neither Dean or Bobby have ever really thought about Sams feelings or emotional needs or state just how he was acting or their own interpretation of Sams behaviour. I think the only person whoever really treated Sam with true love and kindness was Jessica no wonder he clung on to her memory. I havent condoned how either boy acts I didnt like Sams actions I didnt like Deans beating..Sam sacrifices himself to save the world more than likely lost his soul because of it and what for?.
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-03 15:34
Oh, Ellie_444, I guess I wasn’t quite clear with that comment you’re referring to. I was going back to Dawn’s comment and her job as a veterinarian, rather clumsily I guess, my apologies.

But Sam has acknowledged Dean’s superiority by the end of the last season, saying he was the least of the lot. I reckon he has never stopped looking up to his big brother in a way and feeling the need to atone for what he might have done wrong.
What I did mean, actually, is that Sam didn’t want to fight Dean, being all exposed to his cruel beating. I think, apart from being shocked by Dean’s reaction, he really didn’t want to hit him back.
You have understood, surely, that I didn't say that Sam is an animal,haven't you?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-11-03 17:32
Ooooh, Sam was definitely shocked. I was shocked and I knew it was coming. To be honest, I don't think Sam COULD have defended himself, even if he had wanted to. That first punch nearly took his freaking head off.

Now for some insanely bizarre reason, after the reading the last few posts, the image of Sam getting his little puppy dog ears (they go with the eyes) trimmed has hit me. They're not even big, they're just a little y'know.... elfish.
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-03 17:36
Your mind, Enchanting Tim, works in mysterious ways... :D ;-) :D... I wouldn't mind Sam the Elf... the hair fits already, it looks very, ahem, touchable...
uh-oh there it is: I am a shallow woman...

Cheers, dear Celt! Jas
BagginsDVM
# BagginsDVM 2010-11-03 21:16
After another viewing, I think you are right that Sam was suckerpunched. I'm just not used to thinking that another person, even his own brother, could get the drop on Sam, considering the hunter he has become this season. I think he was sincere in wanting help & was willing to accept Dean's response, maybe even a punch or two as he'd gotten in the past, but certainly not what Dean did.


Oh, yes, I can envision Jared as a Tolkien elf!
Although I'd still want Sam Winchester to be human.

The Winchesters in Middle-earth... now there's an idea.
They could really have helped with those pesky orcs!!

Dawn
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2010-11-04 01:46
In your reply to ellie you said that sam did not crave nurturing if so then why was he urging Dean to leave their home in that episode.It sure did not look like mere curiosity to me. Also he had found love in Jessica. I cant believe that Sam did not want to love and to be loved back.
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-04 04:37
BagginsDVM and anonymousN, thank you once more for participating in this discussion :-)!

Dawn, I still can't believe my eyes with that last scene. Who would have thought that Dean actually could go that far...
I'm with you in the Sam-Winchester- Needs-To-Be-Hum an league. After all, it's so very human to make mistakes and be flawed.

AnonymousN, I'm sorry, I never said anything like that. Perhaps you misread something?

Thanks, Jas
CitizenKane2
# CitizenKane2 2010-11-04 04:55
Hi Jasminka,

To clarify,. I think anonymousN was refering to one of Alice's replies :

"You see, I've always thought Sam never craved nurturing because he's never had it his whole life. The concept is foreign to him. I think Dark Side of The Moon confirmed that. He watched Dean's interaction with Mary more out of curiosity than desire. Dean did have that nurturing and that's what has been most missing from his life. Sure Sam has self esteem issues! I don't think he wants to be loved though. Dean definitely does. To be honest, I'm always wondering what Sam's true motivation is. I think he just wants freedom to make his own decisions."

Personally, I'm not sure I agree with the comment. I thought Sam looked at Dean's interaction with Mum in "Dark Side of the Moon" with naked longing (as a son for a mother's affection).

While Dean and Sam have stark differences, I think they also share many similarities. :-)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2010-11-04 07:27
Oh sorry as CitizenKane2 said it was what alice said.Also Sam acknowledged his inferiority compared to all but personally i don't know how much of that baggage he is actually carrying at this point( as he does not seem to care about anything) to simply roll over. Sorry once again i thought i had addressed the right person.
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-04 09:05
Hey, CitizenKane2 and AnonymousN, thanks for clearing that up. Confusions all about... well, the emotional turmoil this show is throwing us all in surely is to blame!
Ha Let's blame it on that darn writers' team! :D

Thanks again, Jas
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-05 15:46
Dany, dear, I think you're perfectly fine - no need of therapy (at least not in this regard, ;-), hehehe). You still are aware that they are fictional characters. The problems will start the moment you begin thinking that they are real.

no worries, in case that happens, I'm here with the right meds. Until then: loads of chocolate will do! :D

Thanks, sweetie! Jas
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-11-05 15:54
Jasminka, these are only musings as I was reading (and making notes) on your article so forgive the disjointedness.

Ok, why do we lie? Is it just to protect others? Not entirely. We also lie to protect ourselves. It’s all about self preservation. If I’m out shopping with a friend and she asks me the traditional ‘Does my ass look big in this’, I’d probably (definitely...) say no. Why? It’s not just to protect her, because, invariably, her ass will look big in it. My 'truth' won’t protect her from the reality of what’s out there (comments from others.) I do it to (a) give her hope about something that can’t be easily changed but also (b) to protect myself, so that she won’t retaliate in kind by insulting me (or clattering me one). You can’t protect people from the truth. This is another thing that Sam and Dean haven’t learned from the past. The knowledge that the truth will out, eventually.

So does it now boil down to ‘Was Sam lying to protect himself?’ Being stripped of a soul (WRITER COPOUT!!!!) means the only thing driving him is the most primative instinct of all, self preservation. Did Sam, due to his soullessness, believe that Dean would kill him when he came back? This will get a bit long winded (again).

Ok, Sam decided to jump in the hole. He had to do it. He HAD to do it. Every single synapse of Sam’s logical brain told him that it had to be done but did Sam want to do it? No, because it would go against that survival instinct. However, knowing this, Dean let Sam jump.

Now again, Dean had no choice, Sam HAD to jump but Sam’s last memory of Dean was one of him not stopping Sam from jumping. Sam, when he got out of the pit, might have remembered just that physical action, Dean didn’t stop him. The emotional reasoning behind the jump doesn’t apply anymore. Now, how did Sam and his logical brain deal with that? He added 2 + 2 and got 44. Did he believe that Dean didn’t stop him from jumping because he felt Sam was a monster and/or deserved it?

If he did, if he was going on what he saw and not what he felt, it would make more sense of Sams desire to stay away. Maybe he didn’t believe that Dean wouldn’t kill him when he came back, especially if Sam, once again, felt/was different. Maybe he believed that if Sam knew he was different, Dean would know it. It’s kind of like having a spot. You’re convinced it’s glaringly obvious to everyone else but in reality, only you see it.

Brings me on to the next point re Sams actions; Sam is now leading with the head and not the heart. Sam’s plans have always worked better when they came from the head; Dean’s, when they came from the heart. Think of Dean in DMDWP (I think) when he’s locked in the cupboard with Bobby and he says ‘I’m making this stuff up as I go along’. This way works best for Dean because 99 times out of a 100, his plans have worked. When Sam went with the heart (feeling he had to kill Lilith), it led to the Apocalypse.

When Dean trusted a demon, Crowley, he was right to do so, when Sam trusted a demon, Ruby, he was wrong to do so but he only trusted her because he felt in his heart it was the right thing to do. His head was screaming that what he was doing wrong, so he initially succumbed to the logical side and stopped to ring Dean and we know how the story ended. Sam’s heart has let him down again and again; it’s only his head he can trust.

It bothers me slightly (actually, it bothers me terribly) that a guy with such a big heart, so full of compassion, can’t trust it.

Re: Sam feeling fear when Dean brandished the knife? Oh yeah, that was fear (quite ironic as a few minutes later he says he’s never afraid anymore, wanna check the seat of your pants there, Sam??) but fear of what? He’s been to hell, for fuck sake. He tangoed with Lucifer (and we all know who ended up leading that dance). What the hell does he have to be afraid of now?

If Sam is emotionless he won’t be afraid of Dean losing trust in him, or being disappointed in him etc. I think Sam is afraid of losing something more concrete; knowledge. Sam’s logical mind said that Dean, once turned, would go straight to the nest. He was wrong. Sam’s logical mind said Dean would do nothing to hurt him. He was wrong. Was Sam’s mind now thinking, ‘Dean would never kill me. Holy crap, what if I’m wrong’? The only thing that can be taken from Sam now is his life and knowing how fickle that is; he’s going to do anything to keep it, even tell the truth.

I believe the confession. I mightn’t be happy with it (Read: COOOOPOUTTTT!!! !) but I do believe what he said. Logically, what would he have to gain by telling Dean that he wasn’t right? Nothing. In fact, he’d have more to lose because, the last time Sam wasn’t ‘right’, what happened to him?

I’m not entirely sure about the ‘I think I need help’ bit. If he has no soul, then how has he doubts about who he is? I think he felt he was playing Dean with this line, that Dean, with his ‘protect baby brother’ mentality would fall back into old patterns and try to help him upon hearing those words (and seeing the emergence of the puppy dog eyes). Boy, was he wrong.....

Re: the beating. Um.... I don’t agree with it, I can’t agree with it (but that’s mostly a personal thing. The brother of a friend spent 6 weeks in a coma after ONE punch so my stomach turns at the mere thought of such a beating.) I think he wanted to hurt Sam. Dean reached a breaking point and he needed to vent. Sam was nearby.

A part of me thinks Dean knew (or at least hoped) it was real Sam and he wanted to hurt him. As Dean was so blinded by fury at this stage, it wasn’t a case of him being able to logically think ‘Oh, need to get this Sam thing back to Bobby’. I feel he knew it was Sam and he wanted to hurt him, ‘If he can’t feel fear, then let’s see if he can feel pain.’

The truth will set you free, my arse...

Dean has always had huge rage inside of him. It might have been tempered somewhat over the years but Dean has always been volatile. If you look at this beating in the light of last weeks episode; Dean managed to kill all the vampires in the nest (which is a bit surreal seeing as a single pudgy vampire managed to fecking turn him). How did he do it, what powered him? Probably not some ancient Japanese fighting skill, or strength (as many vampires would have been much older and therefore physically stronger than him) he did it through mere rage. That’s what powered him. Last week, vampires, this week, Sam. I think Dean v Castiel is on PPV next week......

I actually have a big spiel on Dean but given the air of sympathy towards the guy at the moment (and because my opinion involves the words ‘whiny little bitchfeck’, it’s better I don’t post it. (Tim is also big on self preservation!)

Apologies for the delay in replying, Jasminka. Work; the curse of the SPN watching classes!
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-06 04:32
Enchanting Tim, I’m with you on the concept of why we lie, and if you look again, you will find that I addressed those issues here, too.

It’s an interesting theory, indeed, that Sam might remember his brother NOT holding him back and that memory colouring his state. And Sam has, indeed, always been a fine calculator in terms of assessing a situation intellectually. So, this whole being soulless thing might be somewhat logical…? Oh, dear, one could get crazy only thinking about it.

Actually, the whole no-soul-thing drives me nuts already. So far, by what we’ve seen from Sam it doesn’t add up to NO FEELINGS AT ALL. We’ve seen him display various emotions in the course of these six episodes. Either – they mean that Sam has no empathy (but other emotions, which would make sense) or dear Jared has acted the idea of no feelings at all very poorly, because there have been so many emotions there. I hope it’s not the latter, as I am a big fan of Jared’s acting skills, as you know, but I also want the acting to live up to the story. And here I am, perhaps because of my own theatre days, highly critical. I always watch another actor with a technical eye, too, and I don’t seem to be able to completely shed that. Just as I listen to the voice of another singer with a ‘a, here she changes register’ or to another therapist analysis of a patient with the knowledge of how he might have got there. It’s a curse, sometimes, as it sometimes doesn’t allow me to enjoy a performance with the innocent eye and ear of a ‘normal’ audience member.

Ah, stop whining, Jas.

You know, the truth will not always set you free, as we see now – and as you so aptly put it! Dear Celt, no apologies necessary for the late comment. We have a life outside Supernatural (and that is a great thing) and sometimes technology – as advanced as it may be – likes to drive us mad…

Cheers, dear. And thank you so much for this elaborate comment! Jas
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-11-06 13:41
Sorry Jasminka, re not picking up on your addressing why we lie. I've the attention span of a gnat!

Actually, I just like to take all the best ideas and pass them off as my own. Tee hee (gives endearing grin...)
Jasminka
# Jasminka 2010-11-07 10:56
:-) endearingly noted.... (hint, hint: page one...) :D