No, Harry, please come back! Don’t let it end this way.  What happened to “love at first geek?”  I know, It’s complicated.   

When “#THINMAN” came to a conclusion, I looked at my family - all of us Ghostfacers fans by the way - and said “Well, that’s going to throw the fandom into a fit.”  We were all still smiling though.  We got the joke.

This script can be described by that one Facebook status, it’s complicated.  It’s humorous yet also exposed a lot of interwoven issues between two best friends and two brothers, people who don’t exactly like each other when they get together.  Everyone knows my deep abiding love for Ben Edlund, who was the person who conceived the whole “Ghostfacers” story back in season three.  He gave Ed and Harry a very ludicrous voice and from it they gained a following.  Sure, they aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, but for those of us fans, the Ghostfacers universe is sheer wicked brilliance.  This script by Jenny Klein is the closest “Edlundian” script we’ve gotten since Ben’s departure, and it couldn’t have happened with a better set of returning characters.  

Something I’ve noted about The Ghostfacers previously is that these guys are the anti-Sam and Dean Winchester.  That was the original vision when Ed and Harry were first introduced by Trey Callaway all the way in season one (they were the Hell Hounds at the time).  They’re inept, arrogant, clueless, and they’re hunting the paranormal mostly for the fame, attention, and money.  They drove an AMC Gremlin which is the antithesis of the classic beauty Chevy Impala.  They also come from a normal background of family stability and because of that those that know them are waiting for them to grow up. 

I’ve been waiting for Sam and Dean to grow up as well.  This brotherly drama stuff is getting old.  If Bobby Singer were still alive, he’d have kicked their asses eight ways from Sunday by now.  I also have been kind of waiting for a Castiel “cut the crap” speech as well.  Kevin has told them they need to “deal with it” and they didn’t get the memo.  It could be that in order to see what’s truly wrong, Sam and Dean need to see the parody of themselves.  Who better than Ed Zeddmore and Harry Spangler? 

SPN 0383

Maturity has been a common theme in the Jeremy Carver era of “Supernatural,” and here we got to see what happens if the Ghostfacers have to grow up as well.  Maggie and Spruce of the “Ghostfacers” episode and spinoff series fame went on with their lives and got real jobs (roller derby counts).  Harry was ready to get married and work for his girlfriend’s father.  Ed couldn’t let go so he sabotaged the relationship by making up the Thinman legend, which put the Ghostfacers on the hunt for the elusive creature.  With maturity comes responsibility, this became a big lesson for Ed as well as Sam and Dean.  Maturity and responsibility hurts like a mother.  

Come on, admit it.  The whole Thinman legend is pretty damned clever.  As Ed admitted, all it took was a lot of time on Photoshop.  Online frenzy took  care of the rest.  Dean, who was at his snarky best this episode (another Edlund trait done so well by Klein), had the best description ever of a monster when describing Thinman.  “Or Garth if somebody shaved his face off.”  Hee, so true!  No wonder Ed was spooked when Thinman showed up in Washington and actually started killing people.  Suddenly his little joke got very serious.  He saw the unintended consequences of someone who just couldn’t let go.  

It’s interesting how the whole world was willing to buy into a supernatural creature named Thinman haunting in the shadows before a gruesome death but when it came to two twisted humans using the legend to go off the rails, that didn’t end up being the first thing on anyone’s minds, or the last.  Even Sam and Dean were wondering if a Tulpa was back, harkening back to their first case with Harry and Ed.  No one even considered the culprit to be humans at all until the twisted idiots revealed themselves.  They were certainly an embarrassment to the tin foil hat club.  People are the sickest of all, aren’t they?  

SPN 0886
For all those that complained that the Ghostfacers were way over the top, you don’t know your “Supernatural” history too well.  They have always been that way and their behavior ranges from awkward to outrageously clueless.  I mean, look at some of their quotes this episode, which follows Ghostfacers canon perfectly:

Ed: She got the creme puffs, she tells you to take out the filling, they’re just puffs.
Harry:  Yeah, that was some pretty messed up stuff.

Harry:  No one cares what they think.  They don’t even have a Twitter. 

Harry:  Quit raining on my rainbow
Ed:  Rainbows can’t happen without rain.
Harry:  Don’t try to use science on me. 

Harry:  The lore says that Thinman hangs out by trees, and the woods is where trees hang out.

Harry:  A man could lose his marbles being so close to the blade of doom.  Lucky for us, I’m really good at marbles.

Ed:  We were the Thinman guys.  Without the Thinman we’re just guys.  Just, we’re just puffs. 

Harry:  You crashed the Jenga tower of our lives.

Ed:  It’s Scooby Doo time, douchebag.  Take off the mask.

SPN 1280
Yes, the parallels between Harry and Ed and Sam and Dean were blatant, heavy handed and came at us like a sledgehammer across the skull (or flying anvils is another great analogy, insert your own here).  The lines were there word for word, especially “I can’t trust you anymore” and “You didn’t do this for me, you did this for you.”  That was also intentional.  This is the Ghostfacers after all, where nothing is subtle.  This entire rift, this brotherly conflict, really does seem kind of ridiculous when see through the lives of Harry and Ed, isn’t it?  

However, Harry and Ed’s conflict did have merit, even if it came across as a bad telenovela.  Because of Ed’s stunt, a situation spiraled out of control and innocent people died.  Just like Sam and Dean’s situation.  Harry’s very foundation of trust, everything he believed in, was shattered by deception.  Just like Sam’s situation.  Ed was caught in a fatal lie because he couldn’t let go.  Just like Dean’s situation.  Harry gave up happiness with the woman he loved so he could continue his quest with Harry, just like Sam did last season.  The end result for both is what they did was based on a lie.  It’s hard to not regret the opportunities lost after being deceived by the one person that you gave up everything for.  It’s not hard to never want to do that again for that person.  

The scene in the warehouse was a coming of age for Harry and Ed.  A tragic coming of age.  By owning up and taking responsibility, finishing what they started by taking on these Thinman copycats, Harry was put in the worst situation possible.  He had to kill a human being to save Ed.  He did it without question, he would kill or die for Ed, but that idea of spending eternity with his best friend wasn’t feasible anymore.  He doesn’t want to be in that situation ever again.  Plus he’s forever haunted with the idea that blood is now on his hands, and all because of something that wasn’t real.  Ed claimed responsibility, but the fall out and losing Harry is going to haunt him as well.  He’s lost everything that’s mattered to him.  Yes, say it with me, just like Dean.

SPN 1358
So Ed, Harry, Sam and Dean are all caught in the same brutal lesson right now.  What makes a desperate act forgivable?  Was that act truly worth it given the fall out?  While Sam so wisely pointed out to Harry that some situations aren’t forgivable, it all ends in a rather lonely existence for all.  One where there is no one in that rocking chair next to you when you’re old.  You’re alone in that chair possibly remembering the good times, like when you broke you arm when you were five trying to jump off the shed in a Batman costume when your older brother in a Superman costume just did the same thing.  Oh yes, that smile will creep up when remembering riding on your brother’s handle bars on the way to the ER.  But by that time, it’s too late.  

Forgiveness is complicated.  Trust must be earned, but is loneliness hard too.  How unforgiveable is an act?  Sam has been wrestling with his issue long enough and the time has come to make a decision.  He and Dean live under the same roof, and this whole “keeping it business” is turning out to be a bunch of crap.  It’s only making things worse.  It’s certainly frustrating the hell out of Dean and it’s showing in his grumpy mood (that and the Mark of Cain might be contributing).  Sam probably knows that making a choice is best for all involved, and considering he’s still with Dean, we know he doesn’t want to leave.  He freaked out in that warehouse when the Not!Thinman was ready to slice Dean’s throat.  You can’t watch out for each other all your lives and just suddenly drop that instinct.  Ed and Harry were meant to reinforce his thought process and let him see the same drama through others eyes.  The question is, what choice will come of it? 

SPN 1007

My speculation is by the time Sam comes to his decision, it may be too late.  Perhaps Dean will have already moved on.  He’s already headed down a very dark road.  When he fought Not!Thinman in the warehouse, he just didn’t off the guy with a quick jab.  Nope, he slowly pushed that knife into him, cold and calculated.  Again that could be the Mark of Cain at work, but if anything it shows a shift in his brutality.  He was short and impatient with the Ghostfacers too, using threats to get his point across.  It was fun to see how that didn’t work. 

I’m more freaked out about Harry and Ed.  What’s going to happen to them?  Harry’s world is shattered and Ed is left alone caught in a lie.  I know I’ll get tons of comments saying “I don’t care about the Ghostfacers” but honestly, I do.  I’ve grown to adore these guys.  They need to make up and go back to being “America’s Foremost Supernaturalists.”  As Maggie said in the Ghostfacers episode, “It was love at first geek.”  Please, don’t leave these guys apart like this.  I need closure!  

Despite my love of “#THINMAN,” this episode did echo a greater criticism I have with the plotting in this point of the season.  Why in the world do such dramas have to be dragged out and take center focus?  It’s tiring and honestly, this is a horror show about the supernatural.  It’s not called “Gossip Guys.”  I get it, a 23 episode season is impossible to plot, especially for a show it’s its 9th season.  More and more genre shows are breaking onto the scene with just 13 episodes so the focus can lie solely on mytharc and central plot.  The whole “we aren’t brothers” thing becomes too much of a distraction from these standalones and loses its credibility when it’s stretched too thin.  I know the show never likes to kick start the action before episode 17, but other seasons have succeeded in avoiding the soap opera route for filler.  Even season six did an incredible job of this.  I’m all for the story being about the brothers but a lame story?  You might as well give Castiel more air time.  

Other notes:

SPN 0348

Anyone notice the Lumberjack themed room this week?  As much as I love the Men of Letters Bunker, I really miss doing a fun motel room examination every week.  The room divider was Paul Bunyan!  They also went with the giant scenic mural on the wall, this time a large mountain.  Thank you Jerry Wanek and crew for your continuing amazing creativity.  It’s my goal now to purchase an old motor lodge and renovate each room to look like one from a “Supernatural” episode.  I’ll give a hunters discount.  J

SPN 0331

Anyone notice Dean’s “I can’t believe you’re bringing this up now” stare at Sam when he told Ed, “Secrets ruin relationships.”  I’m sure Dean would be throwing up in his mouth a little if he heard Sam’s talk with Harry later. 

This episode has some great Dean Winchester zingers.  You know, the stuff he used to say years ago when he was a better written character (the best since “The French Mistake.”)  Here’s my favorite though:  “This all sounds like sad times at bitchmont high.”  Yes, I’m old enough to remember when Fast Times at Ridgemont High came out.  The movie of our generation.  Dean also had a couple of great pop culture shout outs.  For one, he called the Ghostfacer van “The Mystery Machine.”  Also, “There was no teleporting.  Just a couple of douchebags doing a Scream thing.” 

There were so many great, subtle little humorous touches.  There was the restaurant crime scene, Dean walking away irritated at the Deputy who let the Ghostfacers in there.  “Not a fan?”  Hee, definitely not a fan.  Also, kudos to Harry for throwing Dean’s threat back in his face.  “What are you going to do, out me...AGENT.”  He even used the quoting fingers!  Did I mention how much I love those guys? 

SPN 0610

As I said, any beef I had is with overall plotting.  I call “#THINMAN” a real  keeper.  This is the way standalones should be, and limits can be stretched with you have the Ghostfacers in your story.  Jenny Klein, thank you for handling these characters with such care.  You captured the true spirit of Harry and Ed, and that’s no small feat.  

Next week is a repeat, so enjoy your week break to ponder what we have so far.  After that, the real action begins.  Maybe.  We’ll have to wait and see.  It’s complicated. 

(Screencaps from www.homeofthenutty.com).  



Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 18:37
Thank you Alice. I didn't like this episode first time around but on second viewing I have to say I actually loved it. If for nothing else for Superman and Batman, that visual of little 9 year old Dean racing 5 year old Sam to the ER was too precious. I loved all of the silent dialogue that was going on between Sam and Dean as well. To me this all boils down to Sam. Harry couldn't forgive Ed. Can Sam forgive Dean? Hopefully before it's too late. I too have always loved the GF.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 18:37
Thank you Alice. I didn't like this episode first time around but on second viewing I have to say I actually loved it. If for nothing else for Superman and Batman, that visual of little 9 year old Dean racing 5 year old Sam to the ER was too precious. I loved all of the silent dialogue that was going on between Sam and Dean as well. To me this all boils down to Sam. Harry couldn't forgive Ed. Can Sam forgive Dean? Hopefully before it's too late. I too have always loved the GF.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 19:01
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 19:01
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 19:39
percyowner that was very cool!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 19:39
percyowner that was very cool!
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-06 19:48
I keep coming back tonight! Lol for all everyone's complaints, I haven't been this obsessed with the show for awhile. I'm itching to discuss it and itching to see how it goes down. I'm driving my bf nuts lol.

Your review in particular really drives home this nagging idea I've had since the episode aired, WRT Carver's "maturity." I was just writing a huge long comment (again), but it boils down to: two guys on a never ending road trip in their 20s with a cool car, rock music, beautiful women in every port and frequent displays of bromance are different from two guys in their 30s who have been literally to Hell and back, are both damaged and weary, and are missing out on other things in life.

I love this show, and I think my recent ardour is largely realizing that it's going to end soon. But in a mood like this, I feel like it's gone too long. I never wanted to watch the brothers at this impasse. It's not either of their faults- it was inevitable. I'm sure Sam's unconditional love will save Dean from the MoC, but what comes next for them? Every scenario I play out- from continuing to hunt to settling down into new lives to dying together in a last hurrah- strikes me as tragic in some way. Either we know they'll likely die soon off-screen, or that Sam will never get those other things he wanted, or that they are alive and happy, but the party is still over.

Bleck. Sorry if I'm driving people nuts with my zillion sudden comments on this site! I was in fandom years ago, but I waned over time and appear to be back with a vengeance!
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-06 19:48
I keep coming back tonight! Lol for all everyone's complaints, I haven't been this obsessed with the show for awhile. I'm itching to discuss it and itching to see how it goes down. I'm driving my bf nuts lol.

Your review in particular really drives home this nagging idea I've had since the episode aired, WRT Carver's "maturity." I was just writing a huge long comment (again), but it boils down to: two guys on a never ending road trip in their 20s with a cool car, rock music, beautiful women in every port and frequent displays of bromance are different from two guys in their 30s who have been literally to Hell and back, are both damaged and weary, and are missing out on other things in life.

I love this show, and I think my recent ardour is largely realizing that it's going to end soon. But in a mood like this, I feel like it's gone too long. I never wanted to watch the brothers at this impasse. It's not either of their faults- it was inevitable. I'm sure Sam's unconditional love will save Dean from the MoC, but what comes next for them? Every scenario I play out- from continuing to hunt to settling down into new lives to dying together in a last hurrah- strikes me as tragic in some way. Either we know they'll likely die soon off-screen, or that Sam will never get those other things he wanted, or that they are alive and happy, but the party is still over.

Bleck. Sorry if I'm driving people nuts with my zillion sudden comments on this site! I was in fandom years ago, but I waned over time and appear to be back with a vengeance!
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 19:49
Quoting cheryl42:
percyowner that was very cool!


It is. Just to be clear, it's not mine. I'm not that incisive and I don't think that creatively.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 19:49
Quote:
percyowner that was very cool!
It is. Just to be clear, it's not mine. I'm not that incisive and I don't think that creatively.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-03-06 19:50
Alice, my view of the episode really improved when I read your perspective that the Ghostfacers have always been a parody. I was frankly insulted by a lot of the episode, but I see now that it was meant to be a spoof to be true to them.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-03-06 19:50
Alice, my view of the episode really improved when I read your perspective that the Ghostfacers have always been a parody. I was frankly insulted by a lot of the episode, but I see now that it was meant to be a spoof to be true to them.
love2boys
# love2boys 2014-03-06 21:29
Thank you for your excellent review, Alice, as always.

I watched this episode 4 times before I totally made my mind up about it. I have never before been so thinky about whether I liked an episode! I had to conclude I liked it, since I kept watching it over and over. :P

I've always liked the Ghostfacers. I've always loved their dialogue. "The Jenga tower of our lives." "The woods is where trees hang out." Tee hee! Beautiful.

Sam and Dean keep having opportunities to learn things from others.

When will they learn?
love2boys
# love2boys 2014-03-06 21:29
Thank you for your excellent review, Alice, as always.

I watched this episode 4 times before I totally made my mind up about it. I have never before been so thinky about whether I liked an episode! I had to conclude I liked it, since I kept watching it over and over. :P

I've always liked the Ghostfacers. I've always loved their dialogue. "The Jenga tower of our lives." "The woods is where trees hang out." Tee hee! Beautiful.

Sam and Dean keep having opportunities to learn things from others.

When will they learn?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 21:30
Sam forgiving dean is a given. Dean just better hope that sam's version of forgiveness is not like his...cuz dean says all is forgiven, but then Sam finds out he really never was. :sad:
Sam's forgiveness won't mean a hill of beans unless dean makes some changes. Sam will forgive, but he won't be able to forget. The only way for dean to gain his brothers trust is by trusting in Sam. If dean actually does step up and apologize, it'll be an empty one unless he can back it up. If he doesn't, then Sam will never trust in dean and if he can't trust in him he can't work by his side ...the result will be a broken brotherhood.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-06 21:30
Sam forgiving dean is a given. Dean just better hope that sam's version of forgiveness is not like his...cuz dean says all is forgiven, but then Sam finds out he really never was. :sad:
Sam's forgiveness won't mean a hill of beans unless dean makes some changes. Sam will forgive, but he won't be able to forget. The only way for dean to gain his brothers trust is by trusting in Sam. If dean actually does step up and apologize, it'll be an empty one unless he can back it up. If he doesn't, then Sam will never trust in dean and if he can't trust in him he can't work by his side ...the result will be a broken brotherhood.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-06 21:30
Yeah, I don't know. I really enjoyed your review Alice. I need to rewatch and mull this all over. I actually enjoy the Ghostfacers as a rule, but I like them clueless and annoying. Not all angsty pseudo Winchesters. Brilliant parody or clunky attempt at parallels? You might be right, maybe they slipped one by me. I think I would have been more on board if the parody was a little more ridiculous instead of the attempt to make comic characters suddenly deep.

I did enjoy some of the one-liners. For some reason Harry's line about the sticks "being in a formation in the shape of a..... pile" cracked me up. Blair Witch nod.

I did also like some of the brother moments, the childhood memories. The look from Dean when Sam mentioned secrets. It was kind of sad to me. Even with all the tension, there is still that underlying love that these two actors can convey without a word. Damn they are excellent!
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-06 21:30
Yeah, I don't know. I really enjoyed your review Alice. I need to rewatch and mull this all over. I actually enjoy the Ghostfacers as a rule, but I like them clueless and annoying. Not all angsty pseudo Winchesters. Brilliant parody or clunky attempt at parallels? You might be right, maybe they slipped one by me. I think I would have been more on board if the parody was a little more ridiculous instead of the attempt to make comic characters suddenly deep.

I did enjoy some of the one-liners. For some reason Harry's line about the sticks "being in a formation in the shape of a..... pile" cracked me up. Blair Witch nod.

I did also like some of the brother moments, the childhood memories. The look from Dean when Sam mentioned secrets. It was kind of sad to me. Even with all the tension, there is still that underlying love that these two actors can convey without a word. Damn they are excellent!
Lkeke35
# Lkeke35 2014-03-06 21:32
I did love this episode, but I don't think it was the Ghostfacers that made me love it as although I like them okay I do spend a lot of time wanting to smack the spit out of each of them.

I agree completely. If Bobby were here he'd have given them both a great good for, like my most favorite speech in Weekend At Bobby's.

And yes I'm ready for the plot to kick into gear. Maybe next week. The filler episodes for Supernatural have gotten steadily worse over the years ( even with the occasional highlight) even though the myth arc seems compelling.

That said, I really don't want to see this kind of CW pointless angst next season. Give it a rest writers. ( it's pointless mostly because we pretty much know they're gonna get back together. The shows been green lit for another season and I'm pretty sure that the writers know that no one is going to tune in to watch two brothers who can't stand each other but enjoy working together. C'mon!
Lkeke35
# Lkeke35 2014-03-06 21:32
I did love this episode, but I don't think it was the Ghostfacers that made me love it as although I like them okay I do spend a lot of time wanting to smack the spit out of each of them.

I agree completely. If Bobby were here he'd have given them both a great good for, like my most favorite speech in Weekend At Bobby's.

And yes I'm ready for the plot to kick into gear. Maybe next week. The filler episodes for Supernatural have gotten steadily worse over the years ( even with the occasional highlight) even though the myth arc seems compelling.

That said, I really don't want to see this kind of CW pointless angst next season. Give it a rest writers. ( it's pointless mostly because we pretty much know they're gonna get back together. The shows been green lit for another season and I'm pretty sure that the writers know that no one is going to tune in to watch two brothers who can't stand each other but enjoy working together. C'mon!
alice
# alice 2014-03-06 21:45
Nightsky,

Back in 2010 when the Ghostfacers web series launched, we were one of the sites chosen to do promotion for that series. I got to meet the producer, Patrick Doody at Comic Con and he presented me with some Ghostfacers swag, including a button made by Phil Sgriccia and the very Ghostfacers t-shirt that I wear to most Supernatural cons and Comic Con.

Because of that meeting, we ran an exclusive video contest where the prize was an autographed by the cast (and put together by Patrick Doody and Todd Aronauer) season five Supernatural DVD that had pictures of cast of the web series in the center art work. It was a one of a kind piece. That was the year the Ghostfacers web series was included in the DVD set. I'm pretty certain we have a photo of that somewhere on this site (I need to check the archives).

Later that year, at Chicago Con, I got to personally meet AJ and Travis. They are the nicest guys and so grateful for all the fan attention. I got to hug them both and they signed some Supernatural magazines for us to give away, and I got to keep one myself. They also personalized one for Ardeospina, who did the reviews for the web series.

So yes, I have a real soft spot for The Ghostfacers, but I really loved the season three episode even before we got to do all that. I'm so thrilled to see them back.

Here's my photo op from Chicago with AJ and Travis in October 2010. I'm wearing my coveted Ghostfacers t-shirt.

Alice
# Alice 2014-03-06 21:45
Nightsky,

Back in 2010 when the Ghostfacers web series launched, we were one of the sites chosen to do promotion for that series. I got to meet the producer, Patrick Doody at Comic Con and he presented me with some Ghostfacers swag, including a button made by Phil Sgriccia and the very Ghostfacers t-shirt that I wear to most Supernatural cons and Comic Con.

Because of that meeting, we ran an exclusive video contest where the prize was an autographed by the cast (and put together by Patrick Doody and Todd Aronauer) season five Supernatural DVD that had pictures of cast of the web series in the center art work. It was a one of a kind piece. That was the year the Ghostfacers web series was included in the DVD set. I'm pretty certain we have a photo of that somewhere on this site (I need to check the archives).

Later that year, at Chicago Con, I got to personally meet AJ and Travis. They are the nicest guys and so grateful for all the fan attention. I got to hug them both and they signed some Supernatural magazines for us to give away, and I got to keep one myself. They also personalized one for Ardeospina, who did the reviews for the web series.

So yes, I have a real soft spot for The Ghostfacers, but I really loved the season three episode even before we got to do all that. I'm so thrilled to see them back.

Here's my photo op from Chicago with AJ and Travis in October 2010. I'm wearing my coveted Ghostfacers t-shirt.

E
# E 2014-03-06 22:12
Quoting percysowner:
AAAND! The set dressing meta http://sleepsintheimpala.tumblr.com/post/78666274556/set-design-just-for-shits-and-giggles-says-no-one It's really interesting, IMHO.


This was totally cool! WOW I was blown away. How interesting and creative this all is and WAY too organized to be an accident of set dressing. I wonder if it will set up a Dean kills/attempts to kill Sam arc for some episodes yet to come? Huh. Interesting.
E
# E 2014-03-06 22:12
Quote:
AAAND! The set dressing meta http://sleepsintheimpala.tumblr.com/post/78666274556/set-design-just-for-shits-and-giggles-says-no-one It's really interesting, IMHO.
This was totally cool! WOW I was blown away. How interesting and creative this all is and WAY too organized to be an accident of set dressing. I wonder if it will set up a Dean kills/attempts to kill Sam arc for some episodes yet to come? Huh. Interesting.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 22:24
I have thought that this may be building to Dean trying to kill Sam. It would be interesting symmetry with him keeping Sam alive at the beginning of the season.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 22:24
I have thought that this may be building to Dean trying to kill Sam. It would be interesting symmetry with him keeping Sam alive at the beginning of the season.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 23:11
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 23:11
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 23:27
Quoting cheryl42:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?


If by malfunction you mean Dean burning it off? It's possible, if Sam didn't get the tattoo reapplied. Or, since they showed us that Crowley could alter Mrs. Tran's tattoo without any problem, someone else could do that. Or Dean could just decide that he wants Sam to "die human" whether or not Sam is actually turning not human. The MOC could alter Dean's perceptions about what Sam is or is not going to do. After all, Cain murdered Abel for his own good.

I am wondering if the magically filling up veil is a way for either Sam and/or Dean to die and be brought back again because they haven't passed over into heaven. I really, really hope not.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-06 23:27
Quote:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?
If by malfunction you mean Dean burning it off? It's possible, if Sam didn't get the tattoo reapplied. Or, since they showed us that Crowley could alter Mrs. Tran's tattoo without any problem, someone else could do that. Or Dean could just decide that he wants Sam to "die human" whether or not Sam is actually turning not human. The MOC could alter Dean's perceptions about what Sam is or is not going to do. After all, Cain murdered Abel for his own good.

I am wondering if the magically filling up veil is a way for either Sam and/or Dean to die and be brought back again because they haven't passed over into heaven. I really, really hope not.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 23:32
I was thinking more about what Abbadon said to Dean about pealing off Dean's tattoo. I think the MOC is protecting Dean from that scenario but what about Sam. Then Dean might have to kill Sam to save him. But then again how many possessions can a guy take.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-06 23:32
I was thinking more about what Abbadon said to Dean about pealing off Dean's tattoo. I think the MOC is protecting Dean from that scenario but what about Sam. Then Dean might have to kill Sam to save him. But then again how many possessions can a guy take.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 00:12
Quoting percysowner:
Quoting cheryl42:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?


If by malfunction you mean Dean burning it off? It's possible, if Sam didn't get the tattoo reapplied. Or, since they showed us that Crowley could alter Mrs. Tran's tattoo without any problem, someone else could do that. Or Dean could just decide that he wants Sam to "die human" whether or not Sam is actually turning not human. The MOC could alter Dean's perceptions about what Sam is or is not going to do. After all, Cain murdered Abel for his own good.

I am wondering if the magically filling up veil is a way for either Sam and/or Dean to die and be brought back again because they haven't passed over into heaven. I really, really hope not.


Sam has it back on one of the writers of the show said when sam was cured by cass the symbol was put back on him. So no need to worry.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 00:12
Quote:
Quote:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?
If by malfunction you mean Dean burning it off? It's possible, if Sam didn't get the tattoo reapplied. Or, since they showed us that Crowley could alter Mrs. Tran's tattoo without any problem, someone else could do that. Or Dean could just decide that he wants Sam to "die human" whether or not Sam is actually turning not human. The MOC could alter Dean's perceptions about what Sam is or is not going to do. After all, Cain murdered Abel for his own good.

I am wondering if the magically filling up veil is a way for either Sam and/or Dean to die and be brought back again because they haven't passed over into heaven. I really, really hope not.
Sam has it back on one of the writers of the show said when sam was cured by cass the symbol was put back on him. So no need to worry.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-07 01:30
Also what I noticed from the episode is Dean's hate to humans. In this episode he actually says twice that humans are bad. Also he is pretty hostile to almost everyone on the episode. Before he on thought that the "Supernatural" were dicks. Even the GF got his hostility big time. Anyone else notice this?
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-07 01:30
Also what I noticed from the episode is Dean's hate to humans. In this episode he actually says twice that humans are bad. Also he is pretty hostile to almost everyone on the episode. Before he on thought that the "Supernatural" were dicks. Even the GF got his hostility big time. Anyone else notice this?
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-03-07 02:01
Thanks Alice. I flat out disliked this episode on first watch. I confess I never liked the Ghostfacers, which may have something to do with it. Anyway, after reading your review, I went back and re-watched tonight. It will never be a favorite episode, but this time I noticed enough moments that I appreciate it. I liked the batman moment first time - that was precious, and the Garth like was a riot, but also liked and noticed more of the snarky Dean this time around. I do love snarky Dean! I had completely missed the awesome hotel room until this viewing too.

Stone cold Dean came through clear in this episode, and I was a little stunned Sam did not call him on it.

The episode goes in the category of the other 2 Ghostfacers episodes - I will re-watch when they are on as repeats for the parts I like.

As to your comment about Castiel, I cannot believe he has not had a "bigger fish" conversation with the brothers. The angel war on earth, Metatron on the loose, souls trapped in the veil, Abaddon and Crowley and the battle for Hell - I could see him telling them to stow their crap, a la season 8. Anyway, thanks Alice. One of the best things about this site is the opportunity to get more out of an episode than I would with just my own initial watch. Your review and this site is a great companion for any fan.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-03-07 02:01
Thanks Alice. I flat out disliked this episode on first watch. I confess I never liked the Ghostfacers, which may have something to do with it. Anyway, after reading your review, I went back and re-watched tonight. It will never be a favorite episode, but this time I noticed enough moments that I appreciate it. I liked the batman moment first time - that was precious, and the Garth like was a riot, but also liked and noticed more of the snarky Dean this time around. I do love snarky Dean! I had completely missed the awesome hotel room until this viewing too.

Stone cold Dean came through clear in this episode, and I was a little stunned Sam did not call him on it.

The episode goes in the category of the other 2 Ghostfacers episodes - I will re-watch when they are on as repeats for the parts I like.

As to your comment about Castiel, I cannot believe he has not had a "bigger fish" conversation with the brothers. The angel war on earth, Metatron on the loose, souls trapped in the veil, Abaddon and Crowley and the battle for Hell - I could see him telling them to stow their crap, a la season 8. Anyway, thanks Alice. One of the best things about this site is the opportunity to get more out of an episode than I would with just my own initial watch. Your review and this site is a great companion for any fan.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-03-07 02:12
#18 Lilah Kane - Actually, I think the theme of humans being the worst monster has been part of the show from the beginning - remember Dean saying - demons I get, but humans are crazy? And - humans, man? The first was from The Benders, all the way back in season 1.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-03-07 02:12
#18 Lilah Kane - Actually, I think the theme of humans being the worst monster has been part of the show from the beginning - remember Dean saying - demons I get, but humans are crazy? And - humans, man? The first was from The Benders, all the way back in season 1.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-07 05:35
Quoting Grace232:
#18 Lilah Kane - Actually, I think the theme of humans being the worst monster has been part of the show from the beginning - remember Dean saying - demons I get, but humans are crazy? And - humans, man? The first was from The Benders, all the way back in season 1.


Ah, yes. I remember those. I know he said them in the past episodes but for some reason it felt different on this episode. How could I explain it... It is more that he still cared about saving humans then. How he said it in Thinman made it feel like he doesn't but he does it anyway.

If that explains it better. I hope I made some sense. :)
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-07 05:35
Quote:
#18 Lilah Kane - Actually, I think the theme of humans being the worst monster has been part of the show from the beginning - remember Dean saying - demons I get, but humans are crazy? And - humans, man? The first was from The Benders, all the way back in season 1.
Ah, yes. I remember those. I know he said them in the past episodes but for some reason it felt different on this episode. How could I explain it... It is more that he still cared about saving humans then. How he said it in Thinman made it feel like he doesn't but he does it anyway.

If that explains it better. I hope I made some sense. :)
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-07 08:47
I love gthe Ghostfacers. Love them. They are fun and they genuinely love/like each other. But I also think they are growing up. Harry definetly has. Or is int he process of it. And I think The Gostfacers is something those two guys need to outgrow. I hope Harry can find it in his heart to forgive Ed. And then the two of them start a venture that doesn't include nearly getting killed because they are out of their depths.

I agree Alice. The writers need to doo something other then the boys then turn them into 'Gossip boys." Its depressing when 90% of their relationship is in angst and conflict. I always thought they would be the Supernatural version of Riggs and Murtaugh from Lethal Weapon. More action. More friendship.

I simply would like to see an entire season where they are on the same page, cracking jokes together and kicking ass. God, the angels adn demons and whatnot wouldn't know whatr hit them. It would be fun to watch.

And there wouldn't be anything wrong with Sam!! Bonus!!!

I think Dean killing Sam could go to ways. Either Dean is compelled to Kill Sam...in which Sam to show his faith and love simply spreads his arms out and tells Dean to go it...his version of Dean telling Sam "I'm not leaving you." from Sacrifice.
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-07 08:47
I love gthe Ghostfacers. Love them. They are fun and they genuinely love/like each other. But I also think they are growing up. Harry definetly has. Or is int he process of it. And I think The Gostfacers is something those two guys need to outgrow. I hope Harry can find it in his heart to forgive Ed. And then the two of them start a venture that doesn't include nearly getting killed because they are out of their depths.

I agree Alice. The writers need to doo something other then the boys then turn them into 'Gossip boys." Its depressing when 90% of their relationship is in angst and conflict. I always thought they would be the Supernatural version of Riggs and Murtaugh from Lethal Weapon. More action. More friendship.

I simply would like to see an entire season where they are on the same page, cracking jokes together and kicking ass. God, the angels adn demons and whatnot wouldn't know whatr hit them. It would be fun to watch.

And there wouldn't be anything wrong with Sam!! Bonus!!!

I think Dean killing Sam could go to ways. Either Dean is compelled to Kill Sam...in which Sam to show his faith and love simply spreads his arms out and tells Dean to go it...his version of Dean telling Sam "I'm not leaving you." from Sacrifice.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-07 09:09
Quoting cheryl42:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?

Has he even replaced it?
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-07 09:09
Quote:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?
Has he even replaced it?
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 09:18
Quoting CastielsCat:
Quoting cheryl42:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?

Has he even replaced it?


When Sam got cured of everything from Cas his tattoo was returned fans asked that of the writer so he can't be possessed its there he will be fine.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 09:18
Quote:
Quote:
I see a tattoo malfunction in Sam's future. :-?
Has he even replaced it?
When Sam got cured of everything from Cas his tattoo was returned fans asked that of the writer so he can't be possessed its there he will be fine.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-07 09:22
Harry was the one that valued the life more than a girl. Likewise if Sam is regretting old decisions that Sam himself made then he needs to ask questions before saying yes or decide whether he can trust Dean enough to hunt with him. To me it's a glass house situation. Last year saw both brothers being dishonest and Sam lying to Dean about the coughing blood (to protect him) immediately after Dean said no more lies. The implication that Sam blames Dean for losing Amelia is heinous. Dean never demanded that he leave her unlike Sam vs Benny. Moreover the relationship was doomed because of her marriage and the fact that Sam was never honest with her about who he was and his past. Finally I find the idea that Ed was responsible for the deaths because he invented Thin Man ludicrous. Those two sociopaths would be killing regardless. If it was a Tulpa that grew in strength because of believers that followed the Ghostfacers... yes... but certainly not in this instance.
CastielsCat
# CastielsCat 2014-03-07 09:22
Harry was the one that valued the life more than a girl. Likewise if Sam is regretting old decisions that Sam himself made then he needs to ask questions before saying yes or decide whether he can trust Dean enough to hunt with him. To me it's a glass house situation. Last year saw both brothers being dishonest and Sam lying to Dean about the coughing blood (to protect him) immediately after Dean said no more lies. The implication that Sam blames Dean for losing Amelia is heinous. Dean never demanded that he leave her unlike Sam vs Benny. Moreover the relationship was doomed because of her marriage and the fact that Sam was never honest with her about who he was and his past. Finally I find the idea that Ed was responsible for the deaths because he invented Thin Man ludicrous. Those two sociopaths would be killing regardless. If it was a Tulpa that grew in strength because of believers that followed the Ghostfacers... yes... but certainly not in this instance.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 09:33
Quoting CastielsCat:
Harry was the one that valued the life more than a girl. Likewise if Sam is regretting old decisions that Sam himself made then he needs to ask questions before saying yes or decide whether he can trust Dean enough to hunt with him. To me it's a glass house situation. Last year saw both brothers being dishonest and Sam lying to Dean about the coughing blood (to protect him) immediately after Dean said no more lies. The implication that Sam blames Dean for losing Amelia is heinous. Dean never demanded that he leave her unlike Sam vs Benny. Moreover the relationship was doomed because of her marriage and the fact that Sam was never honest with her about who he was and his past. Finally I find the idea that Ed was responsible for the deaths because he invented Thin Man ludicrous. Those two sociopaths would be killing regardless. If it was a Tulpa that grew in strength because of believers that followed the Ghostfacers... yes... but certainly not in this instance.


Dean gave Sam a choice to either stay or go. He was all set to let Sam go and he would find out by himself what was going on with cas. So to me Sam choose to stay on his own so he cannot blame Dean for that. Because Dean asked Sam don't you have a girl to get back to and Sam asked him since when are you on the Amelia band wagon. Its even like Deans speech when they have to kill a hell hound that Dean wants Sam to grow old and be married become a MoL and have grand kids and such; Dean figures he will never leave hunting and die with a gun in his hand. So Sam stayed willingly when it came to Amelia. Dean gave Sam a choice.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 09:33
Quote:
Harry was the one that valued the life more than a girl. Likewise if Sam is regretting old decisions that Sam himself made then he needs to ask questions before saying yes or decide whether he can trust Dean enough to hunt with him. To me it's a glass house situation. Last year saw both brothers being dishonest and Sam lying to Dean about the coughing blood (to protect him) immediately after Dean said no more lies. The implication that Sam blames Dean for losing Amelia is heinous. Dean never demanded that he leave her unlike Sam vs Benny. Moreover the relationship was doomed because of her marriage and the fact that Sam was never honest with her about who he was and his past. Finally I find the idea that Ed was responsible for the deaths because he invented Thin Man ludicrous. Those two sociopaths would be killing regardless. If it was a Tulpa that grew in strength because of believers that followed the Ghostfacers... yes... but certainly not in this instance.
Dean gave Sam a choice to either stay or go. He was all set to let Sam go and he would find out by himself what was going on with cas. So to me Sam choose to stay on his own so he cannot blame Dean for that. Because Dean asked Sam don't you have a girl to get back to and Sam asked him since when are you on the Amelia band wagon. Its even like Deans speech when they have to kill a hell hound that Dean wants Sam to grow old and be married become a MoL and have grand kids and such; Dean figures he will never leave hunting and die with a gun in his hand. So Sam stayed willingly when it came to Amelia. Dean gave Sam a choice.
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-03-07 10:53
Hi Alice

Just want to say I have stopped reading comments as so many attack Dean and that hurts me too much, but I want to tell you that I love Harry and Edd very much, like you do. It really matters to me that they will get back together, and I hope we'll see them again some day.

Loved your review. :-)
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-03-07 10:53
Hi Alice

Just want to say I have stopped reading comments as so many attack Dean and that hurts me too much, but I want to tell you that I love Harry and Edd very much, like you do. It really matters to me that they will get back together, and I hope we'll see them again some day.

Loved your review. :-)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-03-07 11:15
Alice - nice review - had a similar take during my second viewing. It was a little too predictable but I'd put it in the middle of the pack for episodes this season. I can take or leave the Ghostfacers but both Harry and Ed were really good in this one. I don't agree with your assessment that the rift seems ridiculous when seens through the lives of Harry and Ed, but I won't get in to that as it seems to dominate about 90% of the recent discussions/threads.

One thing is certain; Sam needs to step up and make a decision. This "business" relationship isn't working for either of them so he needs to decide whether to forgive Dean, or move on with his life. Or, is the Mark of Cain affecting the ability for this decision to be made?

Dean definitely crossed that line in this episode, very cold blooded, with no remorse or hesitation when killing Not-Thinman. Ready to see where the Mark of Cain story goes as that, at least for now, seems to be the primary story line.

I'm ok with the brother drama as long as it goes somewhere and the primary underlying issues are resolved once and for all.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-03-07 11:15
Alice - nice review - had a similar take during my second viewing. It was a little too predictable but I'd put it in the middle of the pack for episodes this season. I can take or leave the Ghostfacers but both Harry and Ed were really good in this one. I don't agree with your assessment that the rift seems ridiculous when seens through the lives of Harry and Ed, but I won't get in to that as it seems to dominate about 90% of the recent discussions/threads.

One thing is certain; Sam needs to step up and make a decision. This "business" relationship isn't working for either of them so he needs to decide whether to forgive Dean, or move on with his life. Or, is the Mark of Cain affecting the ability for this decision to be made?

Dean definitely crossed that line in this episode, very cold blooded, with no remorse or hesitation when killing Not-Thinman. Ready to see where the Mark of Cain story goes as that, at least for now, seems to be the primary story line.

I'm ok with the brother drama as long as it goes somewhere and the primary underlying issues are resolved once and for all.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-07 11:39
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-07 11:39
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 12:02
Quoting Jo1027:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.


From what I am seeing yes Dean does need to apologize but we don't know for sure if that is going to work. And right now all I see is Dean and Sam getting further and further apart. They are at a stalemate I mean Dean was going hunting on his own. And I think his room also is showing where Deans headspace is. And he is not sure how to make things right with Sam. And I think with the mark coming into play soon. I see for some reason to not hurt Sam like Cain did to Able Dean will probably end up leaving the bunker to give them more space so he doesn't hurt Sam. They may solve the problem but Dean may leave just because of the mark may hurt sam and he doesn't want that to happen because of the side effects. I am just thinking here but I am curious when they will make up and how the dean and the mark of cain play into the last part of season and also if it goes into s10.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-07 12:02
Quote:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.
From what I am seeing yes Dean does need to apologize but we don't know for sure if that is going to work. And right now all I see is Dean and Sam getting further and further apart. They are at a stalemate I mean Dean was going hunting on his own. And I think his room also is showing where Deans headspace is. And he is not sure how to make things right with Sam. And I think with the mark coming into play soon. I see for some reason to not hurt Sam like Cain did to Able Dean will probably end up leaving the bunker to give them more space so he doesn't hurt Sam. They may solve the problem but Dean may leave just because of the mark may hurt sam and he doesn't want that to happen because of the side effects. I am just thinking here but I am curious when they will make up and how the dean and the mark of cain play into the last part of season and also if it goes into s10.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-03-07 12:51
Quoting Jo1027:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.


Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-03-07 12:51
Quote:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.
Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.
debbab
# debbab 2014-03-07 13:32
Dean is ready to go on the hunt without Sam as the new reality has sunk in. Sam's up is down and his down is sideways. It is Sam who wants in on the hunt and he is rather surprised Dean would go it alone- In a few episodes to come I would not be surprised to see Dean go off on his own- the series has done this before when the brothers are at odds- each to pursue something separate that ties them together. Patience. It is not so easy to stop being a sibling as evidenced by Sam's reaction to Dean almost getting sliced. Dean seems darker when he stabs that knife.
debbab
# debbab 2014-03-07 13:32
Dean is ready to go on the hunt without Sam as the new reality has sunk in. Sam's up is down and his down is sideways. It is Sam who wants in on the hunt and he is rather surprised Dean would go it alone- In a few episodes to come I would not be surprised to see Dean go off on his own- the series has done this before when the brothers are at odds- each to pursue something separate that ties them together. Patience. It is not so easy to stop being a sibling as evidenced by Sam's reaction to Dean almost getting sliced. Dean seems darker when he stabs that knife.
debbab
# debbab 2014-03-07 13:34
Not so sure Sam's anti-possesion tattoo is back. Know Cas had to remove it to allow Crowley in. Did I miss it being shown? There have not been any shirtless scenes and Sam being restored does not equal the tatoo is back. Clarification anyone?
debbab
# debbab 2014-03-07 13:34
Not so sure Sam's anti-possesion tattoo is back. Know Cas had to remove it to allow Crowley in. Did I miss it being shown? There have not been any shirtless scenes and Sam being restored does not equal the tatoo is back. Clarification anyone?
debbab
# debbab 2014-03-07 13:38
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Jo1027:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.


Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.

In "defending your life" Dean is not sorry nor does he carry guilt when he does what he had to do. He feels sadness and separation from those he cares about, including Sam's current we're not brothers. So how can he apologize. He has apologized to Sam before, but only when he truly believes he did the wrong thing.
debbab
# debbab 2014-03-07 13:38
Quote:
Quote:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.
Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.
In "defending your life" Dean is not sorry nor does he carry guilt when he does what he had to do. He feels sadness and separation from those he cares about, including Sam's current we're not brothers. So how can he apologize. He has apologized to Sam before, but only when he truly believes he did the wrong thing.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-03-07 14:19
Quoting debbab:
Not so sure Sam's anti-possesion tattoo is back. Know Cas had to remove it to allow Crowley in. Did I miss it being shown? There have not been any shirtless scenes and Sam being restored does not equal the tatoo is back. Clarification anyone?


one of the writers said it was put back as part of Castiel healing him.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-03-07 14:19
Quote:
Not so sure Sam's anti-possesion tattoo is back. Know Cas had to remove it to allow Crowley in. Did I miss it being shown? There have not been any shirtless scenes and Sam being restored does not equal the tatoo is back. Clarification anyone?
one of the writers said it was put back as part of Castiel healing him.
E
# E 2014-03-07 15:47
Quoting debbab:
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Jo1027:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.


Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.

In "defending your life" Dean is not sorry nor does he carry guilt when he does what he had to do. He feels sadness and separation from those he cares about, including Sam's current we're not brothers. So how can he apologize. He has apologized to Sam before, but only when he truly believes he did the wrong thing.


I disagree with this. I mean I realize that Dean does not believe that he did anything wrong and has made it clear that he'd "do it all again." But Dean can't see that his actions have hurt Sam? Emotionally, physically? He doesnt' feel any remorse for THAT? I slammed my little sister's foot in the car door by accident when we were kids; I didnt' mean to, I didn't even realize she was behind me getting out of the car. I felt huge remorse, I felt awful about it for days while she limped around, and clearly this memory is still fresh enough in me to recall how I felt over thirty years later. I cringe to this day at the realization that she was in so much pain because of me. By your reconning, I should have gone about my day with the attitude "well, I didnt mean it, and it wasn't intentional, therefore, I'm not sorry." I think its' beyond selfish for Dean, who can clearly see that Sam is STILL in pain from his actions and he can't even muster up one single "I'm sorry"? It makes him look callous and uncaring; this is not a Dean I am enjoying at all. He's caustic, demanding, impatient and egocentrically self-centered. I am dearly hoping that much of his behavior is stemming from the mark of Cain and that this will become clearer later in the season, becuase I despise what he's turning into right now.
E
# E 2014-03-07 15:47
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.
Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.
In "defending your life" Dean is not sorry nor does he carry guilt when he does what he had to do. He feels sadness and separation from those he cares about, including Sam's current we're not brothers. So how can he apologize. He has apologized to Sam before, but only when he truly believes he did the wrong thing.
I disagree with this. I mean I realize that Dean does not believe that he did anything wrong and has made it clear that he'd "do it all again." But Dean can't see that his actions have hurt Sam? Emotionally, physically? He doesnt' feel any remorse for THAT? I slammed my little sister's foot in the car door by accident when we were kids; I didnt' mean to, I didn't even realize she was behind me getting out of the car. I felt huge remorse, I felt awful about it for days while she limped around, and clearly this memory is still fresh enough in me to recall how I felt over thirty years later. I cringe to this day at the realization that she was in so much pain because of me. By your reconning, I should have gone about my day with the attitude "well, I didnt mean it, and it wasn't intentional, therefore, I'm not sorry." I think its' beyond selfish for Dean, who can clearly see that Sam is STILL in pain from his actions and he can't even muster up one single "I'm sorry"? It makes him look callous and uncaring; this is not a Dean I am enjoying at all. He's caustic, demanding, impatient and egocentrically self-centered. I am dearly hoping that much of his behavior is stemming from the mark of Cain and that this will become clearer later in the season, becuase I despise what he's turning into right now.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-07 16:12
Taking down until we get a discussion thread.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-07 16:12
Taking down until we get a discussion thread.
Freebird
# Freebird 2014-03-07 19:17
Thanks for your review, Alice, it's always a joy to read it.

The relationship between the brothers has been bothering me for a while now. I catch myself thinking how I want the boys from the beginning of the series back. When they still had fun besides of their horrible job. And then I realize, that that is very unlikely to be anymore. Why? Because they have, literally, been to hell and back.

Unlike in the first half of the seasons, we now have two traumatized grown ups. We have way too many lies and secrets between them. I honestly don't know how they will ever be back to being okay with each other. I do believe that the love is still there, unchanged. But sometimes even love isn't enough to make things work.

This is something I think the writers have gone too far. The brotherly bond is the core of the series, and they keep destroying it. Sure, a little tension, arguments, fights, even lies, it's all part of a relationship, and should not be left out, especially in a tv show. But, here it has gone too far.

The only thing I can think of right now to bring the brother's trust in each other and the easy, comfortable feeling back is - to get them into psychotherapy. Cast a new character, a shrink, and let them go to therapy. Maybe that'll work. So that in season 10 we get at least a little bit of the Sam and Dean back as we remember from the beginning. Seriously.

I actually liked the parallel between Ed/Harry and Sam/Dean. It was fun to watch.

And I agree with the observation that Dean is getting more cruel. That's not the Dean we know. It's scary and I don't like it at all.

I actually like Sam's character development. He's turned into a mature young man who seems to know exactly what he wants and what he doesn't want. And who is at peace with himself about his own flaws and limits. I'd like to see that kind of development in Dean as well.

Ah, Bobby, I do miss Bobby!
Freebird
# Freebird 2014-03-07 19:17
Thanks for your review, Alice, it's always a joy to read it.

The relationship between the brothers has been bothering me for a while now. I catch myself thinking how I want the boys from the beginning of the series back. When they still had fun besides of their horrible job. And then I realize, that that is very unlikely to be anymore. Why? Because they have, literally, been to hell and back.

Unlike in the first half of the seasons, we now have two traumatized grown ups. We have way too many lies and secrets between them. I honestly don't know how they will ever be back to being okay with each other. I do believe that the love is still there, unchanged. But sometimes even love isn't enough to make things work.

This is something I think the writers have gone too far. The brotherly bond is the core of the series, and they keep destroying it. Sure, a little tension, arguments, fights, even lies, it's all part of a relationship, and should not be left out, especially in a tv show. But, here it has gone too far.

The only thing I can think of right now to bring the brother's trust in each other and the easy, comfortable feeling back is - to get them into psychotherapy. Cast a new character, a shrink, and let them go to therapy. Maybe that'll work. So that in season 10 we get at least a little bit of the Sam and Dean back as we remember from the beginning. Seriously.

I actually liked the parallel between Ed/Harry and Sam/Dean. It was fun to watch.

And I agree with the observation that Dean is getting more cruel. That's not the Dean we know. It's scary and I don't like it at all.

I actually like Sam's character development. He's turned into a mature young man who seems to know exactly what he wants and what he doesn't want. And who is at peace with himself about his own flaws and limits. I'd like to see that kind of development in Dean as well.

Ah, Bobby, I do miss Bobby!
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-07 19:51
Quoting E:
Quoting debbab:
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting Jo1027:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.


Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.

In "defending your life" Dean is not sorry nor does he carry guilt when he does what he had to do. He feels sadness and separation from those he cares about, including Sam's current we're not brothers. So how can he apologize. He has apologized to Sam before, but only when he truly believes he did the wrong thing.


I disagree with this. I mean I realize that Dean does not believe that he did anything wrong and has made it clear that he'd "do it all again." But Dean can't see that his actions have hurt Sam? Emotionally, physically? He doesnt' feel any remorse for THAT? I slammed my little sister's foot in the car door by accident when we were kids; I didnt' mean to, I didn't even realize she was behind me getting out of the car. I felt huge remorse, I felt awful about it for days while she limped around, and clearly this memory is still fresh enough in me to recall how I felt over thirty years later. I cringe to this day at the realization that she was in so much pain because of me. By your reconning, I should have gone about my day with the attitude "well, I didnt mean it, and it wasn't intentional, therefore, I'm not sorry." I think its' beyond selfish for Dean, who can clearly see that Sam is STILL in pain from his actions and he can't even muster up one single "I'm sorry"? It makes him look callous and uncaring; this is not a Dean I am enjoying at all. He's caustic, demanding, impatient and egocentrically self-centered. I am dearly hoping that much of his behavior is stemming from the mark of Cain and that this will become clearer later in the season, becuase I despise what he's turning into right now.


I like the way another poster put it, that Dean is stuck on the "saving Sam's life" angle. I think he's really stuck on "we're not supposed to save each other anymore?!" and can't get past that into the tricking and lying. Please don't throw tomatoes, because I'm an ardent Sam girl! But here is where I think "The Purge" convo wasn't helpful. I got what Sam was saying and why he said it, but so many fans came out of that with nothing but "I wouldn't save you," it wouldn't surprise me if that was Dean's takeaway from the whole thing. Which distracts from the lying and trickery involved, which I think is the bigger issue, not to mention the consent part of it!

At the same time, I don't think Dean *can* regret it. Here, I wonder if the writers wouldn't have wanted to pick a different "site" for this conflict. Because if Dean had done the "right" thing, Sam would be dead. He did the "wrong" thing, and Sam is alive to be pissed at him about it. He probably figured for the longest time that he and Sam would eventually patch up and it would be a "net" win. Maybe the mournful looks at the end of this epi, as well as the reminiscing, were Dean finally realizing this isn't something he can wait for Sam to blow over.

At the same time, I'm skeptical as to whether Sam sincerely wanted to die, or if he had merely accepted it. He was pretty on board with living last year, so I figured that was hopelessness and months of illness talking. I do wonder, if Sam figures out that he *does* want to live, if that would change anything in the equation for him? There would still be all the other stuff wrong with what Dean did, but Sam would no longer disagree with Dean's fundamental choice to save him.

I do predict it'll be Sam who cracks, but Dean will be too far gone with the MoC stuff to hear it. I also predict that "the L word" is going to come into play. Even Gadzekiel said early on that Dean did what he did "out of love." Castiel said Dean did the wrong things for the right reasons (love), and Cain referred to unconditional love that got him to stop what he was doing. I just hope they wrap this up this season! I don't think fans can handle an extended rift between the brothers, nor for "Dark Dean" for a significant chunk of the next season!
Jaytee
# Jaytee 2014-03-07 19:51
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I disagree with the Sam having to make a decision line. I believe he has made his position clear. They don't need to be brothers to work together.

IMO Dean needs to decide if his relationship with Sam means enough to him for him to apologize for what he did to Sam.

Sam has stayed with Dean because he wants to work things out. Now the ball is in Dean's court.

I don't want Sam to give in because he is the victim.
Not saying anything about Sam giving in and yes, Dean needs to apologize. But, for Dean to apologize, he'd have to be sorry for what he did, and he isn't. Sam set the new terms for their relationship, it clearly isn't working so he needs to decide what to do next.
In "defending your life" Dean is not sorry nor does he carry guilt when he does what he had to do. He feels sadness and separation from those he cares about, including Sam's current we're not brothers. So how can he apologize. He has apologized to Sam before, but only when he truly believes he did the wrong thing.
I disagree with this. I mean I realize that Dean does not believe that he did anything wrong and has made it clear that he'd "do it all again." But Dean can't see that his actions have hurt Sam? Emotionally, physically? He doesnt' feel any remorse for THAT? I slammed my little sister's foot in the car door by accident when we were kids; I didnt' mean to, I didn't even realize she was behind me getting out of the car. I felt huge remorse, I felt awful about it for days while she limped around, and clearly this memory is still fresh enough in me to recall how I felt over thirty years later. I cringe to this day at the realization that she was in so much pain because of me. By your reconning, I should have gone about my day with the attitude "well, I didnt mean it, and it wasn't intentional, therefore, I'm not sorry." I think its' beyond selfish for Dean, who can clearly see that Sam is STILL in pain from his actions and he can't even muster up one single "I'm sorry"? It makes him look callous and uncaring; this is not a Dean I am enjoying at all. He's caustic, demanding, impatient and egocentrically self-centered. I am dearly hoping that much of his behavior is stemming from the mark of Cain and that this will become clearer later in the season, becuase I despise what he's turning into right now.
I like the way another poster put it, that Dean is stuck on the "saving Sam's life" angle. I think he's really stuck on "we're not supposed to save each other anymore?!" and can't get past that into the tricking and lying. Please don't throw tomatoes, because I'm an ardent Sam girl! But here is where I think "The Purge" convo wasn't helpful. I got what Sam was saying and why he said it, but so many fans came out of that with nothing but "I wouldn't save you," it wouldn't surprise me if that was Dean's takeaway from the whole thing. Which distracts from the lying and trickery involved, which I think is the bigger issue, not to mention the consent part of it!

At the same time, I don't think Dean *can* regret it. Here, I wonder if the writers wouldn't have wanted to pick a different "site" for this conflict. Because if Dean had done the "right" thing, Sam would be dead. He did the "wrong" thing, and Sam is alive to be pissed at him about it. He probably figured for the longest time that he and Sam would eventually patch up and it would be a "net" win. Maybe the mournful looks at the end of this epi, as well as the reminiscing, were Dean finally realizing this isn't something he can wait for Sam to blow over.

At the same time, I'm skeptical as to whether Sam sincerely wanted to die, or if he had merely accepted it. He was pretty on board with living last year, so I figured that was hopelessness and months of illness talking. I do wonder, if Sam figures out that he *does* want to live, if that would change anything in the equation for him? There would still be all the other stuff wrong with what Dean did, but Sam would no longer disagree with Dean's fundamental choice to save him.

I do predict it'll be Sam who cracks, but Dean will be too far gone with the MoC stuff to hear it. I also predict that "the L word" is going to come into play. Even Gadzekiel said early on that Dean did what he did "out of love." Castiel said Dean did the wrong things for the right reasons (love), and Cain referred to unconditional love that got him to stop what he was doing. I just hope they wrap this up this season! I don't think fans can handle an extended rift between the brothers, nor for "Dark Dean" for a significant chunk of the next season!
novemberschild
# novemberschild 2014-03-07 21:15
Alice- Thank you for your review, I liked it and it helped me see this episode differently than the first time I saw it.
I have not been thrilled with the last several episodes and have kind of backed away from the fandom so that my negativity wouldn't affect others enjoyment. But I do like coming here and reading yours and all the other reviewers take on an episode, it does make me see them in a new light.
I do appreciate all the hard work, time and effort that goes into a review, I just hit certain points when I review but you guys hit so many things and really open up the SPN world.
novemberschild
# novemberschild 2014-03-07 21:15
Alice- Thank you for your review, I liked it and it helped me see this episode differently than the first time I saw it.
I have not been thrilled with the last several episodes and have kind of backed away from the fandom so that my negativity wouldn't affect others enjoyment. But I do like coming here and reading yours and all the other reviewers take on an episode, it does make me see them in a new light.
I do appreciate all the hard work, time and effort that goes into a review, I just hit certain points when I review but you guys hit so many things and really open up the SPN world.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-03-07 21:40
#21 Lilah Kane - yes, that makes sense. I had not noticed him being uncaring of humans generally - just cold as ice killing a killer - even if a human killer. Remember him in Croatoan? He killed the old lady, and it was Sam who stopped him from killing Dwayne - who, in retrospect, should have been killed - such a great episode. But I digress. Anyway, I now need to re-watch this episode again (this will make 3 watches) to see if I can pick up on what you saw. For an episode I did not like the first time, it has gotten an awful lot of my interest. Thanks Lilah. I hope you are enjoying the season overall as much as me.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-03-07 21:40
#21 Lilah Kane - yes, that makes sense. I had not noticed him being uncaring of humans generally - just cold as ice killing a killer - even if a human killer. Remember him in Croatoan? He killed the old lady, and it was Sam who stopped him from killing Dwayne - who, in retrospect, should have been killed - such a great episode. But I digress. Anyway, I now need to re-watch this episode again (this will make 3 watches) to see if I can pick up on what you saw. For an episode I did not like the first time, it has gotten an awful lot of my interest. Thanks Lilah. I hope you are enjoying the season overall as much as me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-08 00:15
I have just created a Let's Discuss Supernatural after Thinman thread for those who want to use it. We can push the deeper discussions about the show, and what a new episode brings to the table. I'm going to try and post a new one for each episode for a while so we have a place to hash things out, without overwhelming the episode reviews thread.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-08 00:15
I have just created a Let's Discuss Supernatural after Thinman thread for those who want to use it. We can push the deeper discussions about the show, and what a new episode brings to the table. I'm going to try and post a new one for each episode for a while so we have a place to hash things out, without overwhelming the episode reviews thread.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-08 03:04
Grace 232 - I hope you are enjoying the season too. It has been different and like Thinman I have actually watched many episodes more than one time. But back to topic. In Croatoan Dean killed humans yes, but still there was the evil demon virus possession thing. And that made them monsters in Dean's eyes. (Not that human in my eyes) But in this he very slowly killed a human being. The guy was a douchbag like Dean would say but still human.
The scene outside when Dean is loading the trunk is a good example. Sam starts the talk like he wouldn't want to do it. Or he is thinking how. Watching Dean a bit with hesitation and worry.
Sam: So, we are good in there?
Dean: Yeeeah...

Sam: They were just people man. They weren't demons, they weren't monsters. -- Just frigging people.
Dean: Well, like I said. People are sick.

Sam's look after that was worried.

But also a funny Awww scene I noticed what from the awesome Hotel room. (Thanks for pointing out the details) That first Sam is by the window looking on information from his computer. Dean goes further away to the kitchen table and Sam asks: "What are you doing?"

It seems Sam didn't want to keep the distance because on next part he had moved the computer on same table. Just opposite of his. I don't know if it was intentional, but I felt like that said to Dean. "Oh, no you don't" without words. So, Sam didn't let him to keep distance. I think that was awesome.

Sidenote... I can't wait for next two episodes and Misha's directing. I hope the Angel "has it" so to speak. ;)
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-03-08 03:04
Grace 232 - I hope you are enjoying the season too. It has been different and like Thinman I have actually watched many episodes more than one time. But back to topic. In Croatoan Dean killed humans yes, but still there was the evil demon virus possession thing. And that made them monsters in Dean's eyes. (Not that human in my eyes) But in this he very slowly killed a human being. The guy was a douchbag like Dean would say but still human.
The scene outside when Dean is loading the trunk is a good example. Sam starts the talk like he wouldn't want to do it. Or he is thinking how. Watching Dean a bit with hesitation and worry.
Sam: So, we are good in there?
Dean: Yeeeah...

Sam: They were just people man. They weren't demons, they weren't monsters. -- Just frigging people.
Dean: Well, like I said. People are sick.

Sam's look after that was worried.

But also a funny Awww scene I noticed what from the awesome Hotel room. (Thanks for pointing out the details) That first Sam is by the window looking on information from his computer. Dean goes further away to the kitchen table and Sam asks: "What are you doing?"

It seems Sam didn't want to keep the distance because on next part he had moved the computer on same table. Just opposite of his. I don't know if it was intentional, but I felt like that said to Dean. "Oh, no you don't" without words. So, Sam didn't let him to keep distance. I think that was awesome.

Sidenote... I can't wait for next two episodes and Misha's directing. I hope the Angel "has it" so to speak. ;)
love2boys
# love2boys 2014-03-08 11:19
As to Dean SLOWLY killing a human being --- Don't we think the Not!Thinman was pushing against Dean and the knife to keep him from pushing the knife in? I would, if I was holding a knife someone was trying to push into me. That would decrease the speed of the kill, I think.

I still agree Dean looked serious and even cold and BAMF. (Blarg!)
love2boys
# love2boys 2014-03-08 11:19
As to Dean SLOWLY killing a human being --- Don't we think the Not!Thinman was pushing against Dean and the knife to keep him from pushing the knife in? I would, if I was holding a knife someone was trying to push into me. That would decrease the speed of the kill, I think.

I still agree Dean looked serious and even cold and BAMF. (Blarg!)
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-08 15:08
Alice thank you for the review. I also did not enjoy the episode on first watch. Your review added a new dimension and I appreciate your time and effort. I am still undecided but intend to watch again after reading your review.

About Dean and the kill. I was like HELL YEAH. I'm all for Dean going dark and think I am more excited about this storyline then I have been in years. Hopefully we get to see a fully developed story.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-08 15:08
Alice thank you for the review. I also did not enjoy the episode on first watch. Your review added a new dimension and I appreciate your time and effort. I am still undecided but intend to watch again after reading your review.

About Dean and the kill. I was like HELL YEAH. I'm all for Dean going dark and think I am more excited about this storyline then I have been in years. Hopefully we get to see a fully developed story.
fluffy
# fluffy 2014-03-09 01:14
testing.
lacysos
# lacysos 2014-03-11 20:58
"My speculation is by the time Sam comes to his decision, it may be too late. Perhaps Dean will have already moved on. "

Let me just point out something here while we're waiting for Sam to apologize/forgi ve Dean.

"Some things you can forgive and some you can't." Harry decided this was not one he could forgive and he split. Sam is still there even after Dean told him 'he'd do it again.' Yep he's still there. Even in this very episode it was Dean walking out on Sam, until Sam stopped him.

Personally, I think that if Dean doesn't have to apologize for tricking Sam into saying yes to possession, erasing his memory, and lying to him repeatedly, then Sam should not have to voice his forgiveness. So what are we waiting for again? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Right?