I am happy to say Robert Berens’ “Captives” has settled some of my doubts about Supernatural’s story line this season. The episode wasn’t perfect, but it was very good. Berens is an excellent addition to the writers’ room, though I do wish someone on that staff loved writing Sam the way Berens loves to write Cas.

Berens deftly brings into focus the theme I have suspected to be in play all season: free will. The Kripke years explored the idea of free will vs fate for humans. Now that free will has replaced the Apocalypse for people, Carver looks to be extending the concept to heaven and hell. I think the symmetry with the first five years works really well. The angels, including Castiel, have been furious with God for exiting the stage, but his absence offers his angels freedom of choice.

Cas
Cas has always been the avatar of that choice among angels, first as a troublesome angel who constantly needed reprogramming, next as a God wannabe and now finally as a leader freely chosen by some of his fellow angels because they like what he stands for. Cas’s arc has been to realize the potential he has always had to restructure heaven, not through hubris or threats, but because he offers an alternative to blind obedience.

A long running question in the series has been who brings Cas back from the dead and why. Berens, and I imagine Carver, offer an elegant solution: God brings Cas back because he is needed, and all Cas’s mistakes have been part of his journey to get to this spot, to be the leader he’s now ready to be.

Bartholomew has been an uninteresting character all season. In fact, the entire angel war story line has failed to grip. The only interesting angels to me are Metatron, Gadreel and of course Cas. But tying Bart to Castiel’s fall into hubris as he fought Raphael is a brilliant stroke. Castiel can see the problems with Bartholomew’s arguments because they are an echo of his own when searching for Purgatory.

Cas Bart
Cas is only too aware of the problems with the end justifying the means. In addition to opening Purgatory and letting in leviathans, he was just manipulated into casting the angels out of heaven by Metatron, who used the same kind of argument. Cas’s entire journey through this narrative has prepared him to be the angel who changes and who brings that change to the other angels. Free will means the ability to make poor decisions as well as good ones. The point is to learn and grow.

I think the same story is playing out in hell. Abbadon is the old guard, ready to rule through force and violence, expecting unquestioning obedience from the demons.  Crowley represents a new order, knowing the strongest leader has the support of his followers, not just the fear.  And like Cas, Crowley has been changed by contact with humans, in ways we haven’t seen play out yet, but I think are to come.

It’s a grand design, and Sam and Dean have their own part of this thematic exploration. They fought for free will for the world and won. Now, they are fighting each other over the right to make choices.

Sam is furious over Dean’s decision to allow an angel to possess him, violating his body and free will in one terrible stroke. Dean’s fear of losing his brother led him to believe the end justifies the means even with Sam’s autonomy—and like Cas did, he’s going to have to realize some things cannot be justified.

However, some things can—Cas killed an angel to take his grace in order to take part in the fight to restore heaven, and that choice doesn’t seem to be staining his gradual ascendance to leadership. The ends appear to have justified those means. Cas is a being with an important purpose, which means his survival is important to the big picture.

And that point to me seems very important when looking at the Winchesters’ personal drama.

This episode convinced me Sam as much as Dean is still on a journey. Last episode’s ending scene between the boys was not intended to be taken as the bare truth from which the boys will rebuild. Sam, not unnaturally given how violated he feels, has been looking at the possession in a black and white fashion which casts his entire relationship with Dean in the shade. Cas and Kevin have both offered a different way of framing the events, though Sam is not yet ready to hear.

Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries. Sam holds Dean responsible for his own decision not to complete the Trials, but doesn’t ponder his own hurt and anger at Dean’s friendship with Benny, even though his speech in the church was far more centered on Dean’s relationships than the price of leaving the gates open.

Sam in his anger makes some harsh judgements about and to his brother, telling Dean he’s done more harm than good and his version of brotherhood is the root of their problems. But the story has been complicating that outlook, suggesting the way forward lies with Sam and Dean moving toward each other, finding a middle ground they can both accept.

Dean will need to verbalize to Sam what he already knows in his gut: he was wrong to take away Sam’s power to make a decision about the possession. Keeping Sam alive at all costs is as wrong as keeping Sam’s body and brain alive without Sam’s soul, something Dean knew in season six.

MrsTran ring
But the value of Dean and Sam’s bond is also important. Cas has been acting as relationship counselor to both Winchesters, and his position is that while the ends don’t always justify the means, motivations do matter. Dean’s motivations matter. And Dean’s feelings about family, his need to protect his little brother, are echoed in “Captives” by Mrs. Tran, who knows the danger of ghosts, but will protect her son to her last breath.

Sam has been horrified by Kevin’s death as one consequence of the possession. That death is one reason he told Dean he did more harm than good. Kevin, though, is not focused on blame. His message to Sam is to hold on to what he finds dear, that he is alive and so is Dean and their bond is worth saving. I didn’t take Kevin’s use of the word stupid to mean Sam’s pain is stupid, but rather that he’s allowed it to skew his perspective about Dean’s value in his life.

Kevin boys
I think Berens used Kevin’s ability to forgive to point out the consequences of Gadreel’s possession were not all bad. Kevin died, but Cas and Charlie were saved. And in the big picture, Cas’s survival is important. It’s not fair that Kevin died, but life is often not fair.

I think there’s a parallel to be made with “Faith.” That episode also dealt with the concept of fairness. Why should Dean live while a lovely person like Layla had to die? Why was it important to respect the natural order for her, while Dean was supernaturally cured? The answer is given in the episode:

ROY
Well, like I said before, the Lord guides me. I looked into your heart, and you just stood out from all the rest.

DEAN
What did you see in my heart?

ROY
A young man with an important purpose. A job to do. And it isn't finished. 

Roy’s choice truly was guided by God, though the healings were not. Dean’s survival was necessary to the fight for free will on earth. Cas’s survival is now necessary to the fight for free will in heaven. Dean is clearly going to be a critical player in the battle for hell and I suspect will play a role in Cas’s fight as well. I’d like to think Sam’s survival matters to the big picture as well.

Sam has been on a journey out of the story since season eight, which has been frustrating me. He’s either deciding he doesn’t need to be a hero and other people can hunt evil, or he’s thinking he’s only good for sacrifice. What he doesn’t seem to be able to envision is being comfortable as Sam Winchester, Man of Letters and Hunter. I hope his arc will be re-evaluating his own worth and therefore, his survival.

If he does, I think he’ll also see that flawed as Dean’s actions were, the love that drove them is part of what gives the brothers power. Closing the gates of hell had no more guarantee of being a good thing than casting the angels out of heaven. But Sam and Dean together do make a difference. Dean’s gut instinct in the church was right.

Dean bed 
The current story is isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother.

Jeremy Carver has a very ambitious plan in place, and I really hope he pulls it off. I’m not completely convinced he will, but I’m much more hopeful after this episode.

Thanks to homeofthenutty.com for the photos.


Comments  

LisaY
# LisaY 2014-02-27 00:09
A fair and balanced review. Thank you.
LisaY
# LisaY 2014-02-27 00:09
A fair and balanced review. Thank you.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-27 00:26
In season 5, the brothers' path to reconciliation started with Sam seeking forgiveness. This year, Dean has to do the same. Sam in turn will be more open to trying to understand Dean. it's that simple to me.

I've pretty much given up in analyzing Sam anymore than that. He's so underwritten, I'm close to giving up on the character.

One thing for sure, after rewatching some season 1 episodes, he was much more his own person then and has now regressed to being the "little brother", and at 30 years old, it's really depressing to see. They guys are too old for Sam having to understand that Dean might continue to treat him as his responsibility because of their childhood. It has to stop.

Also, at this point in the series, I believe that Sam Sam values his life more than Dean does. He just doesn't think that his life is more important than Kevin's, or anyone else. He's tired of people dying because he's alive. Can't blame him for that.

Sorry to be so negative, but I feel even less confident about the conflict between the brothers being satisfactorily resolved after this episode. I'm more and more afraid that Sam will have to suck it up and "get over it" without Dean even apologizing.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-27 00:26
In season 5, the brothers' path to reconciliation started with Sam seeking forgiveness. This year, Dean has to do the same. Sam in turn will be more open to trying to understand Dean. it's that simple to me.

I've pretty much given up in analyzing Sam anymore than that. He's so underwritten, I'm close to giving up on the character.

One thing for sure, after rewatching some season 1 episodes, he was much more his own person then and has now regressed to being the "little brother", and at 30 years old, it's really depressing to see. They guys are too old for Sam having to understand that Dean might continue to treat him as his responsibility because of their childhood. It has to stop.

Also, at this point in the series, I believe that Sam Sam values his life more than Dean does. He just doesn't think that his life is more important than Kevin's, or anyone else. He's tired of people dying because he's alive. Can't blame him for that.

Sorry to be so negative, but I feel even less confident about the conflict between the brothers being satisfactorily resolved after this episode. I'm more and more afraid that Sam will have to suck it up and "get over it" without Dean even apologizing.
Puck
# Puck 2014-02-27 00:50
Brilliant! I agree with all three of you! All, but one thing, I don't feel less confident about concluding the conflict. I think it's Sam and Dean's lack of confidence in themselves, each other, and well just about everything else. The seem to have "99 Problems" right now. I hope they resolve it in themselves then each other. Everything else will come together when they come together.

For the umpteenth time I call this episode "How Many Times Will I Say 'I Love This Kid!'?" Glad to see you again Kevin!
Puck
# Puck 2014-02-27 00:50
Brilliant! I agree with all three of you! All, but one thing, I don't feel less confident about concluding the conflict. I think it's Sam and Dean's lack of confidence in themselves, each other, and well just about everything else. The seem to have "99 Problems" right now. I hope they resolve it in themselves then each other. Everything else will come together when they come together.

For the umpteenth time I call this episode "How Many Times Will I Say 'I Love This Kid!'?" Glad to see you again Kevin!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 04:44
If Sam had died in the hospital Cas and Charlie might never have needed to be saved. Dean would have been on a different path and their stories would have been very different. Kevin might still have been killed by Metatron but it wouldn't have been by Sam's hand.
Sam said some things to Dean that hurt his feelings (and evidently the feelings of a lot of fans). Sam is now questioning Dean's motives for talking him out of finishing the trials. To Sam I believe he thought that Dean was offering him an alternative that meant together they could turn the tide against demons, angels and all the evil they have been fighting their whole lives as equals. Now I think that Sam is wondering if Dean was just saying whatever he needed to say to stop Sam from dying, that everything that Sam had put himself through to close the gates was for nothing. Again Dean feels like the ends justified the means. I just think right now Sam doesn't trust Dean and is keeping him at arms length until he can figure out what their roles are and what they mean to each other.
Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can move past his guilt. Kevin has let Dean off the hook and now Dean wants the same from Sam. I hope that there is some sort of apology from Dean but the more that Sam is being painted as the bad brother for hurting Dean's feelings the more I fear the apology is once again going to come from Sam. I hope that isn't the case because I can't see what Sam did wrong here. For what 10 episodes Sam had no clue what was going on. He finds he has been violated in the worst possible way, he has killed innocent people, his brother has lied to him for months, had his mind wiped, had to have a demon possess him in order to expel the psycho angel and now Dean tells him the end justified the means, he would do it again. How is Sam supposed to feel? I don't think even Sam knows. The fact that Sam is still there, obviously still loves his brother means to me he wants to work it out. But the ball is Dean's court as far as I can see. He is the one who needs to figure out where to go from here to make his relationship with Sam work for both not just for him.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 04:44
If Sam had died in the hospital Cas and Charlie might never have needed to be saved. Dean would have been on a different path and their stories would have been very different. Kevin might still have been killed by Metatron but it wouldn't have been by Sam's hand.
Sam said some things to Dean that hurt his feelings (and evidently the feelings of a lot of fans). Sam is now questioning Dean's motives for talking him out of finishing the trials. To Sam I believe he thought that Dean was offering him an alternative that meant together they could turn the tide against demons, angels and all the evil they have been fighting their whole lives as equals. Now I think that Sam is wondering if Dean was just saying whatever he needed to say to stop Sam from dying, that everything that Sam had put himself through to close the gates was for nothing. Again Dean feels like the ends justified the means. I just think right now Sam doesn't trust Dean and is keeping him at arms length until he can figure out what their roles are and what they mean to each other.
Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can move past his guilt. Kevin has let Dean off the hook and now Dean wants the same from Sam. I hope that there is some sort of apology from Dean but the more that Sam is being painted as the bad brother for hurting Dean's feelings the more I fear the apology is once again going to come from Sam. I hope that isn't the case because I can't see what Sam did wrong here. For what 10 episodes Sam had no clue what was going on. He finds he has been violated in the worst possible way, he has killed innocent people, his brother has lied to him for months, had his mind wiped, had to have a demon possess him in order to expel the psycho angel and now Dean tells him the end justified the means, he would do it again. How is Sam supposed to feel? I don't think even Sam knows. The fact that Sam is still there, obviously still loves his brother means to me he wants to work it out. But the ball is Dean's court as far as I can see. He is the one who needs to figure out where to go from here to make his relationship with Sam work for both not just for him.
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-27 07:49
Quoting JuliaG:
In season 5, the brothers' path to reconciliation started with Sam seeking forgiveness. This year, Dean has to do the same. Sam in turn will be more open to trying to understand Dean. it's that simple to me.

I've pretty much given up in analyzing Sam anymore than that. He's so underwritten, I'm close to giving up on the character.

One thing for sure, after rewatching some season 1 episodes, he was much more his own person then and has now regressed to being the "little brother", and at 30 years old, it's really depressing to see. They guys are too old for Sam having to understand that Dean might continue to treat him as his responsibility because of their childhood. It has to stop.

Also, at this point in the series, I believe that Sam Sam values his life more than Dean does. He just doesn't think that his life is more important than Kevin's, or anyone else. He's tired of people dying because he's alive. Can't blame him for that.

Sorry to be so negative, but I feel even less confident about the conflict between the brothers being satisfactorily resolved after this episode. I'm more and more afraid that Sam will have to suck it up and "get over it" without Dean even apologizing.


I agree with this. It really feels as if Sam is going to have to acknowledge that he is only a possession of Deans. I think the writers decreed it in Season 8 when they had Sam say "Free will is only for you (Dean). Carver will never allow Sam Free Will and Dean will always dicate Sams life because Dean gets to use his crappy childhood as an excuse.
amyh
# amyh 2014-02-27 07:49
Quote:
In season 5, the brothers' path to reconciliation started with Sam seeking forgiveness. This year, Dean has to do the same. Sam in turn will be more open to trying to understand Dean. it's that simple to me.

I've pretty much given up in analyzing Sam anymore than that. He's so underwritten, I'm close to giving up on the character.

One thing for sure, after rewatching some season 1 episodes, he was much more his own person then and has now regressed to being the "little brother", and at 30 years old, it's really depressing to see. They guys are too old for Sam having to understand that Dean might continue to treat him as his responsibility because of their childhood. It has to stop.

Also, at this point in the series, I believe that Sam Sam values his life more than Dean does. He just doesn't think that his life is more important than Kevin's, or anyone else. He's tired of people dying because he's alive. Can't blame him for that.

Sorry to be so negative, but I feel even less confident about the conflict between the brothers being satisfactorily resolved after this episode. I'm more and more afraid that Sam will have to suck it up and "get over it" without Dean even apologizing.
I agree with this. It really feels as if Sam is going to have to acknowledge that he is only a possession of Deans. I think the writers decreed it in Season 8 when they had Sam say "Free will is only for you (Dean). Carver will never allow Sam Free Will and Dean will always dicate Sams life because Dean gets to use his crappy childhood as an excuse.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 07:59
Quoting cheryl42:
If Sam had died in the hospital Cas and Charlie might never have needed to be saved. Dean would have been on a different path and their stories would have been very different. Kevin might still have been killed by Metatron but it wouldn't have been by Sam's hand.
Sam said some things to Dean that hurt his feelings (and evidently the feelings of a lot of fans). Sam is now questioning Dean's motives for talking him out of finishing the trials. To Sam I believe he thought that Dean was offering him an alternative that meant together they could turn the tide against demons, angels and all the evil they have been fighting their whole lives as equals. Now I think that Sam is wondering if Dean was just saying whatever he needed to say to stop Sam from dying, that everything that Sam had put himself through to close the gates was for nothing. Again Dean feels like the ends justified the means. I just think right now Sam doesn't trust Dean and is keeping him at arms length until he can figure out what their roles are and what they mean to each other.
Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can move past his guilt. Kevin has let Dean off the hook and now Dean wants the same from Sam. I hope that there is some sort of apology from Dean but the more that Sam is being painted as the bad brother for hurting Dean's feelings the more I fear the apology is once again going to come from Sam. I hope that isn't the case because I can't see what Sam did wrong here. For what 10 episodes Sam had no clue what was going on. He finds he has been violated in the worst possible way, he has killed innocent people, his brother has lied to him for months, had his mind wiped, had to have a demon possess him in order to expel the psycho angel and now Dean tells him the end justified the means, he would do it again. How is Sam supposed to feel? I don't think even Sam knows. The fact that Sam is still there, obviously still loves his brother means to me he wants to work it out. But the ball is Dean's court as far as I can see. He is the one who needs to figure out where to go from here to make his relationship with Sam work for both not just for him.


Cas was human so I think that no matter what he would be dead if not by the first angel that tried to kill him or the rouge reaper that found him and killed him. So Cas would have died no matter what. Dean if he made a call out to the angels like he did at the hospital he gotten beaten up pretty good not sure Dean would have survived. He would need to run from angels who thought he could locate Cas. So we can't say yes charlie probobly wouldn't have died but we don't know for sure she could have died because she was hunting alone. So that neither here nor there people would have died no matter Deans actions what could have been prevented. Dean was making a deal when sam was in the hospital either angels or crowley. And right now when Dean turned to talk to Sam and Sam walked we are not sure how the conversation is going to go with the forgiveness. Dean has to wait it out until Sam wants to have a real sit down and talk it out. Until then I am guessing Dean can't start the conversation if he could he could have gone to Sam's room followed and cornered him there to talk it out. Since sam didn't want to talk about it Dean went to whatever room he is using at the moment and guessing its giving Sam the space he needs and to make it more professional and business like because that is not Deans room with the albums; moms pic; the guns and purgatory weapon on the wall. And Dean is no longer nesting there its a place just to go out and find jobs to do nothing else. But guessing since Sam is calling the shots right now Dean will wait it out until Sam wants to actually try again in talking. It can't be in Deans court to see where the relationship will go from here if Sam won't chat with Dean. It looks like to me Sam is the one that says when they talk and such Dean tried in the kitchen after he saved his life again bad wording and such but now that Dean knows that Sam won't save his life same circumstances Dean has had a while to think about that so we should get another sit down but not sure how long they are dragging this out. I am curiouis though if Dean will stick to he would do the same thing. JMO
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 07:59
Quote:
If Sam had died in the hospital Cas and Charlie might never have needed to be saved. Dean would have been on a different path and their stories would have been very different. Kevin might still have been killed by Metatron but it wouldn't have been by Sam's hand.
Sam said some things to Dean that hurt his feelings (and evidently the feelings of a lot of fans). Sam is now questioning Dean's motives for talking him out of finishing the trials. To Sam I believe he thought that Dean was offering him an alternative that meant together they could turn the tide against demons, angels and all the evil they have been fighting their whole lives as equals. Now I think that Sam is wondering if Dean was just saying whatever he needed to say to stop Sam from dying, that everything that Sam had put himself through to close the gates was for nothing. Again Dean feels like the ends justified the means. I just think right now Sam doesn't trust Dean and is keeping him at arms length until he can figure out what their roles are and what they mean to each other.
Dean wants Sam to forgive him so he can move past his guilt. Kevin has let Dean off the hook and now Dean wants the same from Sam. I hope that there is some sort of apology from Dean but the more that Sam is being painted as the bad brother for hurting Dean's feelings the more I fear the apology is once again going to come from Sam. I hope that isn't the case because I can't see what Sam did wrong here. For what 10 episodes Sam had no clue what was going on. He finds he has been violated in the worst possible way, he has killed innocent people, his brother has lied to him for months, had his mind wiped, had to have a demon possess him in order to expel the psycho angel and now Dean tells him the end justified the means, he would do it again. How is Sam supposed to feel? I don't think even Sam knows. The fact that Sam is still there, obviously still loves his brother means to me he wants to work it out. But the ball is Dean's court as far as I can see. He is the one who needs to figure out where to go from here to make his relationship with Sam work for both not just for him.
Cas was human so I think that no matter what he would be dead if not by the first angel that tried to kill him or the rouge reaper that found him and killed him. So Cas would have died no matter what. Dean if he made a call out to the angels like he did at the hospital he gotten beaten up pretty good not sure Dean would have survived. He would need to run from angels who thought he could locate Cas. So we can't say yes charlie probobly wouldn't have died but we don't know for sure she could have died because she was hunting alone. So that neither here nor there people would have died no matter Deans actions what could have been prevented. Dean was making a deal when sam was in the hospital either angels or crowley. And right now when Dean turned to talk to Sam and Sam walked we are not sure how the conversation is going to go with the forgiveness. Dean has to wait it out until Sam wants to have a real sit down and talk it out. Until then I am guessing Dean can't start the conversation if he could he could have gone to Sam's room followed and cornered him there to talk it out. Since sam didn't want to talk about it Dean went to whatever room he is using at the moment and guessing its giving Sam the space he needs and to make it more professional and business like because that is not Deans room with the albums; moms pic; the guns and purgatory weapon on the wall. And Dean is no longer nesting there its a place just to go out and find jobs to do nothing else. But guessing since Sam is calling the shots right now Dean will wait it out until Sam wants to actually try again in talking. It can't be in Deans court to see where the relationship will go from here if Sam won't chat with Dean. It looks like to me Sam is the one that says when they talk and such Dean tried in the kitchen after he saved his life again bad wording and such but now that Dean knows that Sam won't save his life same circumstances Dean has had a while to think about that so we should get another sit down but not sure how long they are dragging this out. I am curiouis though if Dean will stick to he would do the same thing. JMO
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-02-27 09:24
Quoting JuliaG:
In season 5, the brothers' path to reconciliation started with Sam seeking forgiveness. This year, Dean has to do the same. Sam in turn will be more open to trying to understand Dean. it's that simple to me.

I've pretty much given up in analyzing Sam anymore than that. He's so underwritten, I'm close to giving up on the character.

One thing for sure, after rewatching some season 1 episodes, he was much more his own person then and has now regressed to being the "little brother", and at 30 years old, it's really depressing to see. They guys are too old for Sam having to understand that Dean might continue to treat him as his responsibility because of their childhood. It has to stop.

Also, at this point in the series, I believe that Sam Sam values his life more than Dean does. He just doesn't think that his life is more important than Kevin's, or anyone else. He's tired of people dying because he's alive. Can't blame him for that.

Sorry to be so negative, but I feel even less confident about the conflict between the brothers being satisfactorily resolved after this episode. I'm more and more afraid that Sam will have to suck it up and "get over it" without Dean even apologizing.


Amen Padaleski. I'm seriously worried that this is going to turn into another opportunity for the show to make Sam the bad guy for making poor Dean feel bad about himself.

In four years, almost five now, I can almost count on one hand the amount of insight we've gotten into Sam's feelings about himself and every time he actually expresses those feelings in front of Dean, Dean's reaction is always so inadequate.

Sam - "I'm the least of all of you."
Dean - "Sam....."

Sam - "I'm not going off. Look I might be a freak, but that's not the same as dangerous.

Dean - "I didn't say......"

Is it any wonder that when they finally allowed Sam to come out with his feelings in "Sacrifice" and Dean was actually given a chance to say something positive to Sam that the whole fandom couldn't stop talking about it?

I want them both to acknowledge that they get why the other does what he does and says what he says and that those things are OKAY. That both of their feelings and reactions are VALID. But I'm afraid it's going to turn into another case of Sam being a "bitch" and Dean coming out the martyr. Ugh.....I have such a love-hate relationship with this show.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-02-27 09:24
Quote:
In season 5, the brothers' path to reconciliation started with Sam seeking forgiveness. This year, Dean has to do the same. Sam in turn will be more open to trying to understand Dean. it's that simple to me.

I've pretty much given up in analyzing Sam anymore than that. He's so underwritten, I'm close to giving up on the character.

One thing for sure, after rewatching some season 1 episodes, he was much more his own person then and has now regressed to being the "little brother", and at 30 years old, it's really depressing to see. They guys are too old for Sam having to understand that Dean might continue to treat him as his responsibility because of their childhood. It has to stop.

Also, at this point in the series, I believe that Sam Sam values his life more than Dean does. He just doesn't think that his life is more important than Kevin's, or anyone else. He's tired of people dying because he's alive. Can't blame him for that.

Sorry to be so negative, but I feel even less confident about the conflict between the brothers being satisfactorily resolved after this episode. I'm more and more afraid that Sam will have to suck it up and "get over it" without Dean even apologizing.
Amen Padaleski. I'm seriously worried that this is going to turn into another opportunity for the show to make Sam the bad guy for making poor Dean feel bad about himself.

In four years, almost five now, I can almost count on one hand the amount of insight we've gotten into Sam's feelings about himself and every time he actually expresses those feelings in front of Dean, Dean's reaction is always so inadequate.

Sam - "I'm the least of all of you."
Dean - "Sam....."

Sam - "I'm not going off. Look I might be a freak, but that's not the same as dangerous.

Dean - "I didn't say......"

Is it any wonder that when they finally allowed Sam to come out with his feelings in "Sacrifice" and Dean was actually given a chance to say something positive to Sam that the whole fandom couldn't stop talking about it?

I want them both to acknowledge that they get why the other does what he does and says what he says and that those things are OKAY. That both of their feelings and reactions are VALID. But I'm afraid it's going to turn into another case of Sam being a "bitch" and Dean coming out the martyr. Ugh.....I have such a love-hate relationship with this show.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 09:55
#6 Suebsg9 Sam was dead in the hospital. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, he was not going to survive. The doctor told Dean that. Sam's point was the dead should stay dead. No deals with anyone for any reason. It started a domino affect like it always does. Sam would have expired, Dean would have made contact with Cas and gone to him for consolation. He would have then taken Cas back to the bunker avoiding Cas' misadventures. Charlie may have continued hunting but because Dean was on a different course he may or may not have been at the bunker. After all it was Sam who suggested they call Charlie when he discovered the ancient computer. The life or death of one person changes the course of the natural order. Because in Sam's mind look what came of it.
It depends on how you view the brothers as to who needs to make the first move. I feel that Sam made the first move by expressing his feelings to Dean. IMO it is now up to Dean to decide what to say to Sam. Obviously it is up for debate whether Sam heard Dean or not as he walked down the hallway. Since we only got Dean's POV we don't know how Sam felt. He hesitated at his door but then walked in.
I get that Dean's feelings are hurt but Sam feels betrayed. I hope there isn't going to be a quick fix and back to same old same old. This took 10 episodes to develop. Dean has been far angrier at Sam for far longer in the past. Let's just give Sam his due. He has a right to be pissed.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 09:55
#6 Suebsg9 Sam was dead in the hospital. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, he was not going to survive. The doctor told Dean that. Sam's point was the dead should stay dead. No deals with anyone for any reason. It started a domino affect like it always does. Sam would have expired, Dean would have made contact with Cas and gone to him for consolation. He would have then taken Cas back to the bunker avoiding Cas' misadventures. Charlie may have continued hunting but because Dean was on a different course he may or may not have been at the bunker. After all it was Sam who suggested they call Charlie when he discovered the ancient computer. The life or death of one person changes the course of the natural order. Because in Sam's mind look what came of it.
It depends on how you view the brothers as to who needs to make the first move. I feel that Sam made the first move by expressing his feelings to Dean. IMO it is now up to Dean to decide what to say to Sam. Obviously it is up for debate whether Sam heard Dean or not as he walked down the hallway. Since we only got Dean's POV we don't know how Sam felt. He hesitated at his door but then walked in.
I get that Dean's feelings are hurt but Sam feels betrayed. I hope there isn't going to be a quick fix and back to same old same old. This took 10 episodes to develop. Dean has been far angrier at Sam for far longer in the past. Let's just give Sam his due. He has a right to be pissed.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 10:12
Quoting cheryl42:
#6 Suebsg9 Sam was dead in the hospital. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, he was not going to survive. The doctor told Dean that. Sam's point was the dead should stay dead. No deals with anyone for any reason. It started a domino affect like it always does. Sam would have expired, Dean would have made contact with Cas and gone to him for consolation. He would have then taken Cas back to the bunker avoiding Cas' misadventures. Charlie may have continued hunting but because Dean was on a different course he may or may not have been at the bunker. After all it was Sam who suggested they call Charlie when he discovered the ancient computer. The life or death of one person changes the course of the natural order. Because in Sam's mind look what came of it.
It depends on how you view the brothers as to who needs to make the first move. I feel that Sam made the first move by expressing his feelings to Dean. IMO it is now up to Dean to decide what to say to Sam. Obviously it is up for debate whether Sam heard Dean or not as he walked down the hallway. Since we only got Dean's POV we don't know how Sam felt. He hesitated at his door but then walked in.
I get that Dean's feelings are hurt but Sam feels betrayed. I hope there isn't going to be a quick fix and back to same old same old. This took 10 episodes to develop. Dean has been far angrier at Sam for far longer in the past. Let's just give Sam his due. He has a right to be pissed.


Fine sam was dead but we know as fans he can't die because major part of the show so something would have had to be done. And Dean was not going to no matter what let sam go so the domino effect would have happend. Dean told Cas to get to the bunker; charlie hunting on her own might have died anyway because dean was not thrilled she was hunting alone. And yes Dean did try to make the first move tuesday night but Sam left; so how is Dean suppost to know when Sam is up to talking about it?? He can keep trying yes but Sam has to listen to him and I get sam is pissed yes we all get it he has a right to be but he also made the rules to which Dean is abiding by they are only partners not brothers everything they talk about is not brotherly just anything dealing with hunting. If sam won't stay in same room with dean how are they going to talk it out seriously. Tell me when is Dean suppost to make the first move? Sam will walk away every time and i get it but to me Sam who has to tell Dean how he will trust him again and making it right is going to take awhile. Sam is pulling the strings and Dean is the one following whatever he wants. But really we know sam cannot die at the beginning of the season that was a given and reason why the writers did a good job with the story arc is because we can discuss it so A+ for them.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 10:12
Quote:
#6 Suebsg9 Sam was dead in the hospital. He was brain dead, his organs had shut down, he was not going to survive. The doctor told Dean that. Sam's point was the dead should stay dead. No deals with anyone for any reason. It started a domino affect like it always does. Sam would have expired, Dean would have made contact with Cas and gone to him for consolation. He would have then taken Cas back to the bunker avoiding Cas' misadventures. Charlie may have continued hunting but because Dean was on a different course he may or may not have been at the bunker. After all it was Sam who suggested they call Charlie when he discovered the ancient computer. The life or death of one person changes the course of the natural order. Because in Sam's mind look what came of it.
It depends on how you view the brothers as to who needs to make the first move. I feel that Sam made the first move by expressing his feelings to Dean. IMO it is now up to Dean to decide what to say to Sam. Obviously it is up for debate whether Sam heard Dean or not as he walked down the hallway. Since we only got Dean's POV we don't know how Sam felt. He hesitated at his door but then walked in.
I get that Dean's feelings are hurt but Sam feels betrayed. I hope there isn't going to be a quick fix and back to same old same old. This took 10 episodes to develop. Dean has been far angrier at Sam for far longer in the past. Let's just give Sam his due. He has a right to be pissed.
Fine sam was dead but we know as fans he can't die because major part of the show so something would have had to be done. And Dean was not going to no matter what let sam go so the domino effect would have happend. Dean told Cas to get to the bunker; charlie hunting on her own might have died anyway because dean was not thrilled she was hunting alone. And yes Dean did try to make the first move tuesday night but Sam left; so how is Dean suppost to know when Sam is up to talking about it?? He can keep trying yes but Sam has to listen to him and I get sam is pissed yes we all get it he has a right to be but he also made the rules to which Dean is abiding by they are only partners not brothers everything they talk about is not brotherly just anything dealing with hunting. If sam won't stay in same room with dean how are they going to talk it out seriously. Tell me when is Dean suppost to make the first move? Sam will walk away every time and i get it but to me Sam who has to tell Dean how he will trust him again and making it right is going to take awhile. Sam is pulling the strings and Dean is the one following whatever he wants. But really we know sam cannot die at the beginning of the season that was a given and reason why the writers did a good job with the story arc is because we can discuss it so A+ for them.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 10:32
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 10:32
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 10:40
Quoting cheryl42:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.


Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 10:40
Quote:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.
Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 10:57
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting cheryl42:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.


Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO

Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.Especially a brother who had just confessed his greatest sin was letting his brother down. Dean knew the button and he pushed it.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 10:57
Quote:
Quote:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.
Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO
Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.Especially a brother who had just confessed his greatest sin was letting his brother down. Dean knew the button and he pushed it.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 11:08
Quoting Sharon:
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting cheryl42:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.


Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO

Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.

He trusted Dean .


Emotional blackmail??? How do you figure? Sam at any point still could have told Dean that he was going with Death even after that why didn't he? If he wanted to die so badly? All he had to do was say the samething he said to the dean in his head that he was ready to die. and I get he trusted dean well Dean wanted to trust gad/zeke in hopes cure sam and leave which he did cure sam but didn't want to leave. But if Sam was so I am dead I should leave with death why not go? And not emotional blackmail sorry this is something else that sam has to ponder that if he was all set to die then why did he just not go even after what gad dean said??? He had choices he choose Dean again even before death so for someone who was ready he could have gone he didn't. So choosing to live was somewhere in there.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 11:08
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.
Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO
Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.

He trusted Dean .
Emotional blackmail??? How do you figure? Sam at any point still could have told Dean that he was going with Death even after that why didn't he? If he wanted to die so badly? All he had to do was say the samething he said to the dean in his head that he was ready to die. and I get he trusted dean well Dean wanted to trust gad/zeke in hopes cure sam and leave which he did cure sam but didn't want to leave. But if Sam was so I am dead I should leave with death why not go? And not emotional blackmail sorry this is something else that sam has to ponder that if he was all set to die then why did he just not go even after what gad dean said??? He had choices he choose Dean again even before death so for someone who was ready he could have gone he didn't. So choosing to live was somewhere in there.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 11:13
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting Sharon:
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting cheryl42:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.


Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO

Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.

He trusted Dean .


Emotional blackmail??? How do you figure? Sam at any point still could have told Dean that he was going with Death even after that why didn't he? If he wanted to die so badly? All he had to do was say the samething he said to the dean in his head that he was ready to die. and I get he trusted dean well Dean wanted to trust gad/zeke in hopes cure sam and leave which he did cure sam but didn't want to leave. But if Sam was so I am dead I should leave with death why not go? And not emotional blackmail sorry this is something else that sam has to ponder that if he was all set to die then why did he just not go even after what gad dean said??? He had choices he choose Dean again even before death so for someone who was ready he could have gone he didn't. So choosing to live was somewhere in there.


Chose to live yes but not possession they are two different things. And he would not of choosen to live if Dean had not appeared would he , that was the difference. The only thing Sam did was trust Dean that is it,
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-27 11:13
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.
Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO
Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.

He trusted Dean .
Emotional blackmail??? How do you figure? Sam at any point still could have told Dean that he was going with Death even after that why didn't he? If he wanted to die so badly? All he had to do was say the samething he said to the dean in his head that he was ready to die. and I get he trusted dean well Dean wanted to trust gad/zeke in hopes cure sam and leave which he did cure sam but didn't want to leave. But if Sam was so I am dead I should leave with death why not go? And not emotional blackmail sorry this is something else that sam has to ponder that if he was all set to die then why did he just not go even after what gad dean said??? He had choices he choose Dean again even before death so for someone who was ready he could have gone he didn't. So choosing to live was somewhere in there.
Chose to live yes but not possession they are two different things. And he would not of choosen to live if Dean had not appeared would he , that was the difference. The only thing Sam did was trust Dean that is it,
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-27 11:20
#13
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Emotional blackmail is a form of psychological manipulation."

How is what Dean did to Sam not emotional blackmail? He manipulated the situation to his advantage and took away Sam's free will. Dean knew and even said himself that Sam would not want to be possessed.
Sam never said he wanted to die. He said he was ready to die. Not the same thing at all. He was ready to die because he didn't see a way to live. When Gad posing as Dean gave him a way to choose not to die he took it because he thought it was Dean and that he could trust Dean. Boy, was he wrong!

I agree with those who think it is up to Dean to start the conversation. Starting with an apology for what he did would get Sam to talk to him.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-27 11:20
#13
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Emotional blackmail is a form of psychological manipulation."

How is what Dean did to Sam not emotional blackmail? He manipulated the situation to his advantage and took away Sam's free will. Dean knew and even said himself that Sam would not want to be possessed.
Sam never said he wanted to die. He said he was ready to die. Not the same thing at all. He was ready to die because he didn't see a way to live. When Gad posing as Dean gave him a way to choose not to die he took it because he thought it was Dean and that he could trust Dean. Boy, was he wrong!

I agree with those who think it is up to Dean to start the conversation. Starting with an apology for what he did would get Sam to talk to him.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 11:25
Quoting Sharon:
[quote name="suebsg9Chose to live yes but not possession they are two different things. And he would not of choosen to live if Dean had not appeared would he , that was the difference. The only thing Sam did was trust Dean that is it,


And that should be the issues he sticks with when him and Dean are talking about what Dean did; not say that everything Dean did has been bad. If they are going to talk about the issues Sam has to stick with the issues. Because Dean has not done bad things. And this is problem I have with Sam I want to feel for him and what Dean did and everyone says well Dean has to make first move. OK well we will see if Sam lets that happen. But stick to what is the issue are not bringing up past stuff and good dean has done. I will await Sam having his adult conversation with dean and see how that goes.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 11:25
And that should be the issues he sticks with when him and Dean are talking about what Dean did; not say that everything Dean did has been bad. If they are going to talk about the issues Sam has to stick with the issues. Because Dean has not done bad things. And this is problem I have with Sam I want to feel for him and what Dean did and everyone says well Dean has to make first move. OK well we will see if Sam lets that happen. But stick to what is the issue are not bringing up past stuff and good dean has done. I will await Sam having his adult conversation with dean and see how that goes.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 11:54
Quoting Jo1027:
#13
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Emotional blackmail is a form of psychological manipulation."

How is what Dean did to Sam not emotional blackmail? He manipulated the situation to his advantage and took away Sam's free will. Dean knew and even said himself that Sam would not want to be possessed.
Sam never said he wanted to die. He said he was ready to die. Not the same thing at all. He was ready to die because he didn't see a way to live. When Gad posing as Dean gave him a way to choose not to die he took it because he thought it was Dean and that he could trust Dean. Boy, was he wrong!

I agree with those who think it is up to Dean to start the conversation. Starting with an apology for what he did would get Sam to talk to him.


I am all for Dean apologizing to sam I am just wondering when Sam will give Dean a chance to between working on cases and neither staying in same room for a long period of time tell me how is he suppost to make the first move. Knock on Sam's door and say lets talk. If sam was so ready to die why then when Dean showed up again why couldn't he say sorry dean made a choice I am going with death. Nothing you say will change my mind. And come on all of a sudden just say yes and thats a cure all red flags. Sam should have stuck with the fact he wanted to die and went with death. But he didn't and i get the trust thing yes we have been down this road with both of them. Dean will have to earn Sam's trust. But Sam has to learn to let Dean go and not fall for any of his tricks and say NO. But he still follows whatever big brother wants to do. But the longer this fight goes on the harder its going to make up.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 11:54
Quote:
#13
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Emotional blackmail is a form of psychological manipulation."

How is what Dean did to Sam not emotional blackmail? He manipulated the situation to his advantage and took away Sam's free will. Dean knew and even said himself that Sam would not want to be possessed.
Sam never said he wanted to die. He said he was ready to die. Not the same thing at all. He was ready to die because he didn't see a way to live. When Gad posing as Dean gave him a way to choose not to die he took it because he thought it was Dean and that he could trust Dean. Boy, was he wrong!

I agree with those who think it is up to Dean to start the conversation. Starting with an apology for what he did would get Sam to talk to him.
I am all for Dean apologizing to sam I am just wondering when Sam will give Dean a chance to between working on cases and neither staying in same room for a long period of time tell me how is he suppost to make the first move. Knock on Sam's door and say lets talk. If sam was so ready to die why then when Dean showed up again why couldn't he say sorry dean made a choice I am going with death. Nothing you say will change my mind. And come on all of a sudden just say yes and thats a cure all red flags. Sam should have stuck with the fact he wanted to die and went with death. But he didn't and i get the trust thing yes we have been down this road with both of them. Dean will have to earn Sam's trust. But Sam has to learn to let Dean go and not fall for any of his tricks and say NO. But he still follows whatever big brother wants to do. But the longer this fight goes on the harder its going to make up.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-27 12:01
In terms of who should speak to whom first, the only reason I think the ball is currently in Sam's court is he is the one in control of whether that conversation happens. Dean's response to Kevin's words was to turn to Sam, ready to talk. Whether he would have said something Sam wants to hear is unknown, because Sam cut off the conversation before it got going. That leaves Sam as the one who has to indicate he's ready to talk. It's not a blame issue, it's a who's ready to talk issue.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-27 12:01
In terms of who should speak to whom first, the only reason I think the ball is currently in Sam's court is he is the one in control of whether that conversation happens. Dean's response to Kevin's words was to turn to Sam, ready to talk. Whether he would have said something Sam wants to hear is unknown, because Sam cut off the conversation before it got going. That leaves Sam as the one who has to indicate he's ready to talk. It's not a blame issue, it's a who's ready to talk issue.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 12:05
Quoting Gerry:
In terms of who should speak to whom first, the only reason I think the ball is currently in Sam's court is he is the one in control of whether that conversation happens. Dean's response to Kevin's words was to turn to Sam, ready to talk. Whether he would have said something Sam wants to hear is unknown, because Sam cut off the conversation before it got going. That leaves Sam as the one who has to indicate he's ready to talk. It's not a blame issue, it's a who's ready to talk issue.


Thank you :)
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 12:05
Quote:
In terms of who should speak to whom first, the only reason I think the ball is currently in Sam's court is he is the one in control of whether that conversation happens. Dean's response to Kevin's words was to turn to Sam, ready to talk. Whether he would have said something Sam wants to hear is unknown, because Sam cut off the conversation before it got going. That leaves Sam as the one who has to indicate he's ready to talk. It's not a blame issue, it's a who's ready to talk issue.
Thank you :)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 12:07
We don't know what the writers are going to have these characters say to each other and when. I have a feeling that there is a huge twist coming that will put everything on it's ear. Making up and apologies might have to wait or maybe this episode was the beginning. Dean started to say something and Sam hesitated at his door. Maybe it was a missed opportunity just before everything goes to hell. We don't know yet how this is all going to be resolved we just know one way or another it will. I am worried about the MOC for Dean and from the synopsis of a future episode now I am worried for Sam. As I said hang on to your hats it's going to be a bumpy ride.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 12:07
We don't know what the writers are going to have these characters say to each other and when. I have a feeling that there is a huge twist coming that will put everything on it's ear. Making up and apologies might have to wait or maybe this episode was the beginning. Dean started to say something and Sam hesitated at his door. Maybe it was a missed opportunity just before everything goes to hell. We don't know yet how this is all going to be resolved we just know one way or another it will. I am worried about the MOC for Dean and from the synopsis of a future episode now I am worried for Sam. As I said hang on to your hats it's going to be a bumpy ride.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 12:10
Quoting cheryl42:
We don't know what the writers are going to have these characters say to each other and when. I have a feeling that there is a huge twist coming that will put everything on it's ear. Making up and apologies might have to wait or maybe this episode was the beginning. Dean started to say something and Sam hesitated at his door. Maybe it was a missed opportunity just before everything goes to hell. We don't know yet how this is all going to be resolved we just know one way or another it will. I am worried about the MOC for Dean and from the synopsis of a future episode now I am worried for Sam. As I said hang on to your hats it's going to be a bumpy ride.


I keep hopeing for more on the MOC; someone said look at sam's door its 23 and someone figured apology by then.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 12:10
Quote:
We don't know what the writers are going to have these characters say to each other and when. I have a feeling that there is a huge twist coming that will put everything on it's ear. Making up and apologies might have to wait or maybe this episode was the beginning. Dean started to say something and Sam hesitated at his door. Maybe it was a missed opportunity just before everything goes to hell. We don't know yet how this is all going to be resolved we just know one way or another it will. I am worried about the MOC for Dean and from the synopsis of a future episode now I am worried for Sam. As I said hang on to your hats it's going to be a bumpy ride.
I keep hopeing for more on the MOC; someone said look at sam's door its 23 and someone figured apology by then.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 12:26
That's funny. Numbers usually mean something in this show that is why you hear 1138 a lot. I have a feeling the big cliffhanger is going to carry this conflict into next year. So we will have a very long summer, fall to agonize. My usual hiatus solution is to do a complete rewatch of the entire series. And of course to buy S9 DVD.
I'm with you on the MOC. Let's get on with it already. This is the most intriguing story for the second half of the season. I have no idea where it might be going.
And by the way thank you Gerry. It is always interesting to get Dean's point of view from your reviews. It sure gets the discussion going.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 12:26
That's funny. Numbers usually mean something in this show that is why you hear 1138 a lot. I have a feeling the big cliffhanger is going to carry this conflict into next year. So we will have a very long summer, fall to agonize. My usual hiatus solution is to do a complete rewatch of the entire series. And of course to buy S9 DVD.
I'm with you on the MOC. Let's get on with it already. This is the most intriguing story for the second half of the season. I have no idea where it might be going.
And by the way thank you Gerry. It is always interesting to get Dean's point of view from your reviews. It sure gets the discussion going.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 12:34
Quoting cheryl42:
That's funny. Numbers usually mean something in this show that is why you hear 1138 a lot. I have a feeling the big cliffhanger is going to carry this conflict into next year. So we will have a very long summer, fall to agonize. My usual hiatus solution is to do a complete rewatch of the entire series. And of course to buy S9 DVD.
I'm with you on the MOC. Let's get on with it already. This is the most intriguing story for the second half of the season. I have no idea where it might be going.
And by the way thank you Gerry. It is always interesting to get Dean's point of view from your reviews. It sure gets the discussion going.


This is probobly the most discussing i have done on an eps an I found it intresting that Gerry did point out about isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother.

I found that intresting and it might be true I mean we never see the mark on dean if its doing anything or bothering him in anyway. I try to look for it in scenes when his sleeves are pushed up like is it still there so we know that the arc is still there. I kept wondering if dean was getting another kill with the guy holding him hostage because he wanted to get his knife in his boot; damn he is smart putting it there and figuring out how to untie himself. I always wonder if mark has anything to do with his kill count.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 12:34
Quote:
That's funny. Numbers usually mean something in this show that is why you hear 1138 a lot. I have a feeling the big cliffhanger is going to carry this conflict into next year. So we will have a very long summer, fall to agonize. My usual hiatus solution is to do a complete rewatch of the entire series. And of course to buy S9 DVD.
I'm with you on the MOC. Let's get on with it already. This is the most intriguing story for the second half of the season. I have no idea where it might be going.
And by the way thank you Gerry. It is always interesting to get Dean's point of view from your reviews. It sure gets the discussion going.
This is probobly the most discussing i have done on an eps an I found it intresting that Gerry did point out about isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother.

I found that intresting and it might be true I mean we never see the mark on dean if its doing anything or bothering him in anyway. I try to look for it in scenes when his sleeves are pushed up like is it still there so we know that the arc is still there. I kept wondering if dean was getting another kill with the guy holding him hostage because he wanted to get his knife in his boot; damn he is smart putting it there and figuring out how to untie himself. I always wonder if mark has anything to do with his kill count.
josieposie
# josieposie 2014-02-27 12:56
quote name="suebsg9"]Quoting Sharon:
[quote name="suebsg9Chose to live yes but not possession they are two different things. And he would not of choosen to live if Dean had not appeared would he , that was the difference. The only thing Sam did was trust Dean that is it,


And that should be the issues he sticks with when him and Dean are talking about what Dean did; not say that everything Dean did has been bad. If they are going to talk about the issues Sam has to stick with the issues. Because Dean has not done bad things. And this is problem I have with Sam I want to feel for him and what Dean did and everyone says well Dean has to make first move. OK well we will see if Sam lets that happen. But stick to what is the issue are not bringing up past stuff and good dean has done. I will await Sam having his adult conversation with dean and see how that goes.

Sorry, I know I'm coming into this a little late but I kind of feel that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" on this. Suebsg9 you said Sam should stick to the issues and not bring up past stuff. Isn't that what Dean did all last season to Sam? Personally, I don't think when Sam was saying that Dean did more harm than good that he was referring to all of Dean's history. I think he was referring to the fallout of Dean tricking him into being possessed by Gadreel. Still, you have to know that Sam is angry and hurt and people often lash out and say things that they know are hurtful even if they don't mean them. Dean has said plenty of hurtful things to Sam in the past. It's just a very human thing to do. I don't think it meant that he was immature just as I don't think Sam is being immature. JMO I have no doubt whatsoever that Sam loves Dean (and vice versa) and I think they will eventually have that long awaited brother talk and move ahead as equals
josieposie
# josieposie 2014-02-27 12:56
quote name="suebsg9"]Quote:


And that should be the issues he sticks with when him and Dean are talking about what Dean did; not say that everything Dean did has been bad. If they are going to talk about the issues Sam has to stick with the issues. Because Dean has not done bad things. And this is problem I have with Sam I want to feel for him and what Dean did and everyone says well Dean has to make first move. OK well we will see if Sam lets that happen. But stick to what is the issue are not bringing up past stuff and good dean has done. I will await Sam having his adult conversation with dean and see how that goes.
Sorry, I know I'm coming into this a little late but I kind of feel that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" on this. Suebsg9 you said Sam should stick to the issues and not bring up past stuff. Isn't that what Dean did all last season to Sam? Personally, I don't think when Sam was saying that Dean did more harm than good that he was referring to all of Dean's history. I think he was referring to the fallout of Dean tricking him into being possessed by Gadreel. Still, you have to know that Sam is angry and hurt and people often lash out and say things that they know are hurtful even if they don't mean them. Dean has said plenty of hurtful things to Sam in the past. It's just a very human thing to do. I don't think it meant that he was immature just as I don't think Sam is being immature. JMO I have no doubt whatsoever that Sam loves Dean (and vice versa) and I think they will eventually have that long awaited brother talk and move ahead as equals
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-27 12:57
Quoting Sharon:
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting Sharon:
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting cheryl42:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.


Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO

Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.

He trusted Dean .


Emotional blackmail??? How do you figure? Sam at any point still could have told Dean that he was going with Death even after that why didn't he? If he wanted to die so badly? All he had to do was say the samething he said to the dean in his head that he was ready to die. and I get he trusted dean well Dean wanted to trust gad/zeke in hopes cure sam and leave which he did cure sam but didn't want to leave. But if Sam was so I am dead I should leave with death why not go? And not emotional blackmail sorry this is something else that sam has to ponder that if he was all set to die then why did he just not go even after what gad dean said??? He had choices he choose Dean again even before death so for someone who was ready he could have gone he didn't. So choosing to live was somewhere in there.


Chose to live yes but not possession they are two different things. And he would not of choosen to live if Dean had not appeared would he , that was the difference. The only thing Sam did was trust Dean that is it,

Which was the mistake made by Sam..But he might have thought that Dean is not manipulative like Ruby..But alas Dean was Sam's Ruby this season.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-27 12:57
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I was talking about Sam's point of view not what should have happened. Of course Dean needed to save Sam otherwise no show. My only point was the reason why Sam is angry is because Dean knew that Sam would have rather died than cause all the destruction that is now happening.
Sam has only walked away one time so far and that was after watching mom and ghost walk out of the bunker. Since we don't know how Sam was feeling at the time we can only surmise that he was a) overwhelmed by the moment b) he was tired and wanted to go to bed or c) he was angry at Dean and needed to leave the room. It depends on which brother you lean towards as to how you interpret the scene. We only got the final scene of Dean being sad. Just remember Dean called out for Sam and Sam came running. These guys aren't as far apart as we all think. They are having a major identity crisis at the moment. I have every faith they will work it out.
Well Sam has to know that Dean has taken up in another room because that is not the memory foam room. As yes we did not get Sam POV from him walking away we just see Dean retreating to his room and listening to music. But the problem I have that Sam has to own up to fine you can say he was dead and wanted to stay dead with I am guessing Death is not going to make deals and say ok well Dean can't go about making a deal when right there he did one. Sam has to learn from this also to say NO to Dean. Sam seems to no matter what plan or what Dean says Sam says 'How do i stop the trials' or 'what do i have to do' he does that he follows big brothers lead and he had to know how bad off he was how is dean all of sudden going to come with a cure all?? I mean really?? If he was so set on dying why did he agree with gad/dean? I think that is the thing Sam has to think through also. He agreed to what Dean said he has never talked about that all he has said that Dean wanted him to live because Dean can't be alone. Well Sam is in big fat deniel because of Kevins death now he wants to die. When Gad/Dean came to him and he went along with whatever dean did. So some of this is on sam he has to say sorry dean i am all set to die see death is here to get me. Like he did with the one in his head. funny he could do it to that one but when gad/dean showed up he went with it. I mean in sam's mind he had to know how bad he was off and had to figure well I am dying should go with death. But he choose dean everytime. And he has to live with that descision also. And I think alot of it is the fact he went along with deans plan. He choose to stop the trials because Dean and him choose each other. He choose to go with Deans idea instead of death. That is on him. Dean did trick him but he has to get it and remember some of it is in on him also. JMO
Dean violated Sam and his choices , there is no yes that Sam said that made him complicit in that.

Sam had choosen which is why Dean got upset and came up with the plan . Sam was confronted with a Dean telling him 'there 'aint no me if there aint no you' emotional blackmail maybe but very hard for someone to say no to.

He trusted Dean .
Emotional blackmail??? How do you figure? Sam at any point still could have told Dean that he was going with Death even after that why didn't he? If he wanted to die so badly? All he had to do was say the samething he said to the dean in his head that he was ready to die. and I get he trusted dean well Dean wanted to trust gad/zeke in hopes cure sam and leave which he did cure sam but didn't want to leave. But if Sam was so I am dead I should leave with death why not go? And not emotional blackmail sorry this is something else that sam has to ponder that if he was all set to die then why did he just not go even after what gad dean said??? He had choices he choose Dean again even before death so for someone who was ready he could have gone he didn't. So choosing to live was somewhere in there.
Chose to live yes but not possession they are two different things. And he would not of choosen to live if Dean had not appeared would he , that was the difference. The only thing Sam did was trust Dean that is it,
Which was the mistake made by Sam..But he might have thought that Dean is not manipulative like Ruby..But alas Dean was Sam's Ruby this season.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 13:39
Quoting josieposie:
quote name="suebsg9"]Quoting Sharon:
[quote name="suebsg9Chose to live yes but not possession they are two different things. And he would not of choosen to live if Dean had not appeared would he , that was the difference. The only thing Sam did was trust Dean that is it,


quote]

Sorry, I know I'm coming into this a little late but I kind of feel that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" on this. Suebsg9 you said Sam should stick to the issues and not bring up past stuff. Isn't that what Dean did all last season to Sam? Personally, I don't think when Sam was saying that Dean did more harm than good that he was referring to all of Dean's history. I think he was referring to the fallout of Dean tricking him into being possessed by Gadreel. Still, you have to know that Sam is angry and hurt and people often lash out and say things that they know are hurtful even if they don't mean them. Dean has said plenty of hurtful things to Sam in the past. It's just a very human thing to do. I don't think it meant that he was immature just as I don't think Sam is being immature. JMO I have no doubt whatsoever that Sam loves Dean (and vice versa) and I think they will eventually have that long awaited brother talk and move ahead as equals


Ok got me there forgot about that :)
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 13:39
quote name="suebsg9"]Quote:


quote]

Sorry, I know I'm coming into this a little late but I kind of feel that "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" on this. Suebsg9 you said Sam should stick to the issues and not bring up past stuff. Isn't that what Dean did all last season to Sam? Personally, I don't think when Sam was saying that Dean did more harm than good that he was referring to all of Dean's history. I think he was referring to the fallout of Dean tricking him into being possessed by Gadreel. Still, you have to know that Sam is angry and hurt and people often lash out and say things that they know are hurtful even if they don't mean them. Dean has said plenty of hurtful things to Sam in the past. It's just a very human thing to do. I don't think it meant that he was immature just as I don't think Sam is being immature. JMO I have no doubt whatsoever that Sam loves Dean (and vice versa) and I think they will eventually have that long awaited brother talk and move ahead as equals
Ok got me there forgot about that :)
JJ
# JJ 2014-02-27 13:59
"I think Berens used Kevin’s ability to forgive to point out the consequences of Gadreel’s possession were not all bad. Kevin died, but Cas and Charlie were saved. And in the big picture, Cas’s survival is important. It’s not fair that Kevin died, but life is often not fair."

Could not agree more! Not only did the Gad possession save Cas & Charlie, but also Mama Tran who most likely would never have been found had Kevin not died & gained intel in the veil.

Yes, what Dean did to Sam was a huge violation to Sam, but the Gad possession has yielded some good. It was not all bad, bad, bad.
JJ
# JJ 2014-02-27 13:59
"I think Berens used Kevin’s ability to forgive to point out the consequences of Gadreel’s possession were not all bad. Kevin died, but Cas and Charlie were saved. And in the big picture, Cas’s survival is important. It’s not fair that Kevin died, but life is often not fair."

Could not agree more! Not only did the Gad possession save Cas & Charlie, but also Mama Tran who most likely would never have been found had Kevin not died & gained intel in the veil.

Yes, what Dean did to Sam was a huge violation to Sam, but the Gad possession has yielded some good. It was not all bad, bad, bad.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 14:12
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed . A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 14:12
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed . A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 14:33
Quoting cheryl42:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.


This is one thing can dispute on you are so sure Dean woudl have gone to Cas. Maybe yes who knows I mean a winchester takes death of family member hard I am guessing Dean is not getting in the impala that same day he would give sam a hunters funeral I would suspect and who knows what Deans mind set is that day. Dean takes loosing sam hard same as Sam loosing Dean. So you may say he would go to cas to be consoled or brought to men of letters. I am thinking without sam in men of letters Dean would abandon unless he does go to kevin tell him what happend. Still wondering would he still have crowley in his trunk? Would he go search for Cass maybe after he got through his grief. But who knows if first angel got in touch with cas and got in crash? So cass's events would be somewhat same until after crash. I still question the fact Charlie was hunting alone; like I said Dean was not thrilled with that so we would have no clue what would happen with charlie if she is hunting alone she could easily have died on hunt. And Ms Tran would she have been found sooner no unless crowley told dean its the truth and were to find her but who knows. So some events gad was helpful he did save people and I think deep down he wanted to change I think the fact he got scared and manipulated by metatron that he did the wrong things by killing kevin and the two other people. why he kept dean alive still big mistake but I wonder will he turn into an ally in the the end??? Will he actually try to follow cass or maybe try to contact dean and explain his actions??? I still have hopes Gad wanted to change he was just manipulated and scared when Dean wanted him out of Sam. Gad had to know he couldn't hide in sam forever. Sorry jumping ahead but curious about Gad also and role he will play in up coming eps.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 14:33
Quote:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.
This is one thing can dispute on you are so sure Dean woudl have gone to Cas. Maybe yes who knows I mean a winchester takes death of family member hard I am guessing Dean is not getting in the impala that same day he would give sam a hunters funeral I would suspect and who knows what Deans mind set is that day. Dean takes loosing sam hard same as Sam loosing Dean. So you may say he would go to cas to be consoled or brought to men of letters. I am thinking without sam in men of letters Dean would abandon unless he does go to kevin tell him what happend. Still wondering would he still have crowley in his trunk? Would he go search for Cass maybe after he got through his grief. But who knows if first angel got in touch with cas and got in crash? So cass's events would be somewhat same until after crash. I still question the fact Charlie was hunting alone; like I said Dean was not thrilled with that so we would have no clue what would happen with charlie if she is hunting alone she could easily have died on hunt. And Ms Tran would she have been found sooner no unless crowley told dean its the truth and were to find her but who knows. So some events gad was helpful he did save people and I think deep down he wanted to change I think the fact he got scared and manipulated by metatron that he did the wrong things by killing kevin and the two other people. why he kept dean alive still big mistake but I wonder will he turn into an ally in the the end??? Will he actually try to follow cass or maybe try to contact dean and explain his actions??? I still have hopes Gad wanted to change he was just manipulated and scared when Dean wanted him out of Sam. Gad had to know he couldn't hide in sam forever. Sorry jumping ahead but curious about Gad also and role he will play in up coming eps.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-27 14:52
Thank you for writing this wonderful post, Gerry. I was intially a little meh about this episode but this review has made me see it a little differently. I'm even more optimistic about the future of ths particular storyline.

Your review has changed my mind about what to think about all the characters. So thanx, for putting things in perspective for me.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-27 14:52
Thank you for writing this wonderful post, Gerry. I was intially a little meh about this episode but this review has made me see it a little differently. I'm even more optimistic about the future of ths particular storyline.

Your review has changed my mind about what to think about all the characters. So thanx, for putting things in perspective for me.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-27 15:25
Quoting cheryl42:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.


To me, the show is examining destiny and how it's made. Cas was only chosen to be the leader by the angels because they saw him in action, showing how to be different. If he'd been staying safe in the bunker, that would not have happened. If he'd been out living as a human, he'd have been found by the reaper and without Gadreel's intervention, he would have died. It's the journey he went on that led Cas to that moment in the graveyard. And unfortunately, Sam's possession is one of those moments.

That doesn't mean I think the possession should be handwaved. Sam has an issue that has to be discussed with Dean. But I do think right now he's so angry and hurt he's using a pretty huge paintbrush to paint his grievances. As he lets go of some of it, that leaves the core problem, which in my view is Dean's failure to tell Sam what he'd done at the first opportunity. I know why Dean did it, but I also know he knew at some level it was the wrong choice. If the boys can start talking about what they both know was wrong, they can start to heal. But I don't think they're going to have that talk any time soon. I suspect Dean is going to start to slip away from Sam in some way related to the Mark, and Sam won't know at first.

I do hope the writers pull this all off, because it certainly is a gripping story, as long they remember what the core of it is. Sam does need to know Dean understands he needs to have free will about his choices. Dean does need to know Sam stays with him because of his free will, not guilt or duty. And to get there, it would be SO nice to have Sam POV. There has to be a writer who is intrigued by Sam's inner landscape. I miss Sera's writing so much.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-27 15:25
Quote:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.

To me, the show is examining destiny and how it's made. Cas was only chosen to be the leader by the angels because they saw him in action, showing how to be different. If he'd been staying safe in the bunker, that would not have happened. If he'd been out living as a human, he'd have been found by the reaper and without Gadreel's intervention, he would have died. It's the journey he went on that led Cas to that moment in the graveyard. And unfortunately, Sam's possession is one of those moments.

That doesn't mean I think the possession should be handwaved. Sam has an issue that has to be discussed with Dean. But I do think right now he's so angry and hurt he's using a pretty huge paintbrush to paint his grievances. As he lets go of some of it, that leaves the core problem, which in my view is Dean's failure to tell Sam what he'd done at the first opportunity. I know why Dean did it, but I also know he knew at some level it was the wrong choice. If the boys can start talking about what they both know was wrong, they can start to heal. But I don't think they're going to have that talk any time soon. I suspect Dean is going to start to slip away from Sam in some way related to the Mark, and Sam won't know at first.

I do hope the writers pull this all off, because it certainly is a gripping story, as long they remember what the core of it is. Sam does need to know Dean understands he needs to have free will about his choices. Dean does need to know Sam stays with him because of his free will, not guilt or duty. And to get there, it would be SO nice to have Sam POV. There has to be a writer who is intrigued by Sam's inner landscape. I miss Sera's writing so much.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 15:48
Gerry that was kind of my point. Sam's possession had a domino affect on all the characters. It may have turned for the better if Sam had died (what Sam thinks) or it may have turned out for the worse (what Dean thinks). But I think they were all destined to end up where they are now. Sam and Dean have a greater purpose. I have a horrible idea where this might be going. However as we have see in the past the Winchesters have been able to screw destiny right in the face.
Your right about Sera's writing. She was really the last writer who really got Sam.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 15:48
Gerry that was kind of my point. Sam's possession had a domino affect on all the characters. It may have turned for the better if Sam had died (what Sam thinks) or it may have turned out for the worse (what Dean thinks). But I think they were all destined to end up where they are now. Sam and Dean have a greater purpose. I have a horrible idea where this might be going. However as we have see in the past the Winchesters have been able to screw destiny right in the face.
Your right about Sera's writing. She was really the last writer who really got Sam.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 16:03
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting cheryl42:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.


To me, the show is examining destiny and how it's made. Cas was only chosen to be the leader by the angels because they saw him in action, showing how to be different. If he'd been staying safe in the bunker, that would not have happened. If he'd been out living as a human, he'd have been found by the reaper and without Gadreel's intervention, he would have died. It's the journey he went on that led Cas to that moment in the graveyard. And unfortunately, Sam's possession is one of those moments.

That doesn't mean I think the possession should be handwaved. Sam has an issue that has to be discussed with Dean. But I do think right now he's so angry and hurt he's using a pretty huge paintbrush to paint his grievances. As he lets go of some of it, that leaves the core problem, which in my view is Dean's failure to tell Sam what he'd done at the first opportunity. I know why Dean did it, but I also know he knew at some level it was the wrong choice. If the boys can start talking about what they both know was wrong, they can start to heal. But I don't think they're going to have that talk any time soon. I suspect Dean is going to start to slip away from Sam in some way related to the Mark, and Sam won't know at first.

I do hope the writers pull this all off, because it certainly is a gripping story, as long they remember what the core of it is. Sam does need to know Dean understands he needs to have free will about his choices. Dean does need to know Sam stays with him because of his free will, not guilt or duty. And to get there, it would be SO nice to have Sam POV. There has to be a writer who is intrigued by Sam's inner landscape. I miss Sera's writing so much.


Hopefully we get into more of the MOC and what its doing to dean because I would really be curious to see your insight in an article about that right now I am enjoying what you are adding to what might be going on with Dean. So keep it up girl :)
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 16:03
Quote:
Quote:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.

To me, the show is examining destiny and how it's made. Cas was only chosen to be the leader by the angels because they saw him in action, showing how to be different. If he'd been staying safe in the bunker, that would not have happened. If he'd been out living as a human, he'd have been found by the reaper and without Gadreel's intervention, he would have died. It's the journey he went on that led Cas to that moment in the graveyard. And unfortunately, Sam's possession is one of those moments.

That doesn't mean I think the possession should be handwaved. Sam has an issue that has to be discussed with Dean. But I do think right now he's so angry and hurt he's using a pretty huge paintbrush to paint his grievances. As he lets go of some of it, that leaves the core problem, which in my view is Dean's failure to tell Sam what he'd done at the first opportunity. I know why Dean did it, but I also know he knew at some level it was the wrong choice. If the boys can start talking about what they both know was wrong, they can start to heal. But I don't think they're going to have that talk any time soon. I suspect Dean is going to start to slip away from Sam in some way related to the Mark, and Sam won't know at first.

I do hope the writers pull this all off, because it certainly is a gripping story, as long they remember what the core of it is. Sam does need to know Dean understands he needs to have free will about his choices. Dean does need to know Sam stays with him because of his free will, not guilt or duty. And to get there, it would be SO nice to have Sam POV. There has to be a writer who is intrigued by Sam's inner landscape. I miss Sera's writing so much.
Hopefully we get into more of the MOC and what its doing to dean because I would really be curious to see your insight in an article about that right now I am enjoying what you are adding to what might be going on with Dean. So keep it up girl :)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 17:26
i don't think sam's issue is the save. i think sam's issue is the method of the save. sam and dean have been through a lot of crap and they've ea. hurt ea. other. but the one thing that has never faltered as far as sam is concerned is his unwavering trust in his brother. sam believed in dean when nobody else did, including dean. they could disagree til the cows come home, but sam's faith in his brother is absolute. dean did something to sam that he'd never done before. he used sam's trust in him against him by use of trickery and deceit. dean gave sam's control away to a stranger. gad invaded sam's thoughts and feelings. he came out at will taking absolutely all control away from sam and took liberty at swiping his memory . all the while dean was right there allowing it to happen. he even started calling gad out when he needed him. thus dean had control over sam's body. add to that the innocents that were killed by gad and it's not a pretty picture. when sam got gadreel's memories he saw everything that happened while gad was in his body. it's not so simple to get over something like that. even if sam wants to forget, he can't. every time he remembers how he was invaded and lost control of his own body yet again, and all the while his brother was right there next to him, allowing it, i can't help but think all those feelings of anger come rising up again. how many times has something happened that's upsetting to you and you think you have it under control and then randomly you start thinking about it again and you get upset all over again. you don't do it on purpose, it's just that you haven't had time to process it all and deal. well isn't that the case for sam. sam hasn't had the time to process all that's happened and he's certainly hasn't had the time to deal with it. the other side of the coin is that sam loves his brother and he knows what dean did was out of love. he's very conflicted. he's struggling with so much and i don't think it's very fair that sam is viewed as the one who's wronged dean simply because he hasn't immediately forgiven his brother. or because he's being too harsh on dean. sam deserves time to heal. he's earned that.
i still don't think sam left the room because he was avoiding dean. sam left the room as kevin and his mom were walking up the stairs to leave. dean was watching them go. when dean turned around talking because he thought sam was still standing there, sam was like two steps away from the exit. i doubt he even heard dean. what i don't get is why there is this assumption that sam leaving was all about dean. maybe, just maybe it was about sam. i've said it on another thread. sam had a face to face with kevin, who was killed by his hand. sam was locked in a room with mrs tran and had to tell her that her son was dead, though i can't imagine sam had it in him to tell her he was the one who killed him. kevin releases sam of the guilt he's been carrying for months, telling him to let it go( the guilt). to let it all go. sam bolted out of that room and i don't think it was because he was avoiding dean. in all honesty, sam is a big boy and if he didn't like what dean had to say he would've said so. or if he wasn't ready to talk, sam just could've said, dean i can't do this right now. it would've been that simple. but sam ran off. i think it's because he was on emotional overload and he needed to be alone and deal with all of it. but he hesitated before he went in his room. he's struggling. he heard what kevin said. he wasn't ready at that moment, but he did promise kevin, which if you ask me was also a promise to dean as well of all of us. sam just needs a little more time.
but what i think the writers were doing purposely of course, just like some of the audience, they're having dean jump to a similar conclusion. that sam was avoiding him and that he didn't mean it when he told kevin...i will.
they did this last year with sam. sam jumped to all the wrong conclusions regarding dean based on his own feelings of failure. he saw himself as a disappointment to dean so dean must feel the same way. that's why he's never trusted me. and dean gave sam reason to think that because of his anger that sam didn't look, his speech in sc, his text, his turning to a vampire instead of his own brother. dean's anger at sam had him doing and saying some pretty harsh things. put that all together with sam's state of mind last season and you get sam perfectly willing to die because disappointing his brother again is far worse.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 17:26
i don't think sam's issue is the save. i think sam's issue is the method of the save. sam and dean have been through a lot of crap and they've ea. hurt ea. other. but the one thing that has never faltered as far as sam is concerned is his unwavering trust in his brother. sam believed in dean when nobody else did, including dean. they could disagree til the cows come home, but sam's faith in his brother is absolute. dean did something to sam that he'd never done before. he used sam's trust in him against him by use of trickery and deceit. dean gave sam's control away to a stranger. gad invaded sam's thoughts and feelings. he came out at will taking absolutely all control away from sam and took liberty at swiping his memory . all the while dean was right there allowing it to happen. he even started calling gad out when he needed him. thus dean had control over sam's body. add to that the innocents that were killed by gad and it's not a pretty picture. when sam got gadreel's memories he saw everything that happened while gad was in his body. it's not so simple to get over something like that. even if sam wants to forget, he can't. every time he remembers how he was invaded and lost control of his own body yet again, and all the while his brother was right there next to him, allowing it, i can't help but think all those feelings of anger come rising up again. how many times has something happened that's upsetting to you and you think you have it under control and then randomly you start thinking about it again and you get upset all over again. you don't do it on purpose, it's just that you haven't had time to process it all and deal. well isn't that the case for sam. sam hasn't had the time to process all that's happened and he's certainly hasn't had the time to deal with it. the other side of the coin is that sam loves his brother and he knows what dean did was out of love. he's very conflicted. he's struggling with so much and i don't think it's very fair that sam is viewed as the one who's wronged dean simply because he hasn't immediately forgiven his brother. or because he's being too harsh on dean. sam deserves time to heal. he's earned that.
i still don't think sam left the room because he was avoiding dean. sam left the room as kevin and his mom were walking up the stairs to leave. dean was watching them go. when dean turned around talking because he thought sam was still standing there, sam was like two steps away from the exit. i doubt he even heard dean. what i don't get is why there is this assumption that sam leaving was all about dean. maybe, just maybe it was about sam. i've said it on another thread. sam had a face to face with kevin, who was killed by his hand. sam was locked in a room with mrs tran and had to tell her that her son was dead, though i can't imagine sam had it in him to tell her he was the one who killed him. kevin releases sam of the guilt he's been carrying for months, telling him to let it go( the guilt). to let it all go. sam bolted out of that room and i don't think it was because he was avoiding dean. in all honesty, sam is a big boy and if he didn't like what dean had to say he would've said so. or if he wasn't ready to talk, sam just could've said, dean i can't do this right now. it would've been that simple. but sam ran off. i think it's because he was on emotional overload and he needed to be alone and deal with all of it. but he hesitated before he went in his room. he's struggling. he heard what kevin said. he wasn't ready at that moment, but he did promise kevin, which if you ask me was also a promise to dean as well of all of us. sam just needs a little more time.
but what i think the writers were doing purposely of course, just like some of the audience, they're having dean jump to a similar conclusion. that sam was avoiding him and that he didn't mean it when he told kevin...i will.
they did this last year with sam. sam jumped to all the wrong conclusions regarding dean based on his own feelings of failure. he saw himself as a disappointment to dean so dean must feel the same way. that's why he's never trusted me. and dean gave sam reason to think that because of his anger that sam didn't look, his speech in sc, his text, his turning to a vampire instead of his own brother. dean's anger at sam had him doing and saying some pretty harsh things. put that all together with sam's state of mind last season and you get sam perfectly willing to die because disappointing his brother again is far worse.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 17:26
now dean is in a similar situation. he knows he hurt his brother. i'm not sure he gets what sam is angry at though. sam's anger, much like dean's has sam saying harsh things. necessary truths, but harsh none the less. sam's feeling of betrayal is fresh and raw still. he's only processing it all now, and he's not able to reach out to dean the way dean wants him to. he's seemingly walking away. but yet sam is right there. but dean's state of mind has him believing that sam doesn't love him the same. which isn't true of course, just as it wasn't true last season that dean sees sam as a disapointment.
they're following the same formula as last season. a desperate act, an emotional break, they'll open up and deal with all of it. i don't think we'll have to wait til the finale. but i do agree the moc story will continue into next season as will the quest for cas getting the angels back to heaven..
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-27 17:26
now dean is in a similar situation. he knows he hurt his brother. i'm not sure he gets what sam is angry at though. sam's anger, much like dean's has sam saying harsh things. necessary truths, but harsh none the less. sam's feeling of betrayal is fresh and raw still. he's only processing it all now, and he's not able to reach out to dean the way dean wants him to. he's seemingly walking away. but yet sam is right there. but dean's state of mind has him believing that sam doesn't love him the same. which isn't true of course, just as it wasn't true last season that dean sees sam as a disapointment.
they're following the same formula as last season. a desperate act, an emotional break, they'll open up and deal with all of it. i don't think we'll have to wait til the finale. but i do agree the moc story will continue into next season as will the quest for cas getting the angels back to heaven..
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-27 20:29
Quoting cheryl42:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.


If Dean hadn't have abandoned Cas (who always makes the wrong decision because he is 'too trusting') to go after Sam and stop him from doing what Sam knew needed to be done:

- Cas wouldn't have decided to go to heaven,

- Metatron couldn't have used him as part of the spell,

- the gates of heaven would have stayed open (at least long enough for Sam to go there, and then Sam would have been on the inside, maybe able to fight Metatron

- Sam would have gone to heaven (or if he was due to go back to hell would have ended up in limbo since the gates of hell would have been closed).

- Cas would have not been human and not died and needed reviving

- Charlie would not have died,

- Kevin would not have died,

- Crowley would have been human

- Kevin would have been able to get information that his mother was still alive and maybe rescue her

- Sam would no longer be being tormented by his unmitigatedly awful life, none of which suffering he has deserved

-Dean would be free of the burden on himself he has chosen to make Sam.

-Sam would be free of the totally undeserved burden on him that is Dean's impression that Sam is Dean's burden.
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-27 20:29
Quote:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.
If Dean hadn't have abandoned Cas (who always makes the wrong decision because he is 'too trusting') to go after Sam and stop him from doing what Sam knew needed to be done:

- Cas wouldn't have decided to go to heaven,

- Metatron couldn't have used him as part of the spell,

- the gates of heaven would have stayed open (at least long enough for Sam to go there, and then Sam would have been on the inside, maybe able to fight Metatron

- Sam would have gone to heaven (or if he was due to go back to hell would have ended up in limbo since the gates of hell would have been closed).

- Cas would have not been human and not died and needed reviving

- Charlie would not have died,

- Kevin would not have died,

- Crowley would have been human

- Kevin would have been able to get information that his mother was still alive and maybe rescue her

- Sam would no longer be being tormented by his unmitigatedly awful life, none of which suffering he has deserved

-Dean would be free of the burden on himself he has chosen to make Sam.

-Sam would be free of the totally undeserved burden on him that is Dean's impression that Sam is Dean's burden.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 20:58
You know I never could figure out why Dean needed to go with Cas in the first place. He didn't help in any way. The only reason seemed to be a plot device to get Dean to where Naomi could tell him that Sam would die finishing the trials. Other than that Dean got a beer.
I think Cas would have still ended up in heaven because he had to take Cupids bow to Metatron.
So the heaven thing might still have happened. But then Dean would have had only angels to deal with instead demons as well.
Kevin's translation of the trials pretty much said that the one doing the trials should not fear danger nor death nor having your spine ripped out of your mouth for all eternity. Sam would have been in for a pretty rough time.
I think that Sam is doomed to suffer forever no matter what his choices are. :sad:
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 20:58
You know I never could figure out why Dean needed to go with Cas in the first place. He didn't help in any way. The only reason seemed to be a plot device to get Dean to where Naomi could tell him that Sam would die finishing the trials. Other than that Dean got a beer.
I think Cas would have still ended up in heaven because he had to take Cupids bow to Metatron.
So the heaven thing might still have happened. But then Dean would have had only angels to deal with instead demons as well.
Kevin's translation of the trials pretty much said that the one doing the trials should not fear danger nor death nor having your spine ripped out of your mouth for all eternity. Sam would have been in for a pretty rough time.
I think that Sam is doomed to suffer forever no matter what his choices are. :sad:
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-27 21:09
Quoting anonomousN- "Which was the mistake made by Sam..But he might have thought that Dean is not manipulative like Ruby..But alas Dean was Sam's Ruby this season."

Sorry but I don't see it as the same at all. Ruby had a long time agenda. She worked and manipulated for years to get Sam to trust her. She then used Sam to kill Lilith resulting in the rise of Lucifer. Dean made a mistake in agreeing to allow Ezekiel to possess Sam. It was done in haste and grief. It was wrong. The object was to save and heal his brother. And yes, I know it was selfish and impulsive and did not takes Sam's wishes into account. His brother was dying before his eyes! Not saying it was a right decision but comparing Dean to an evil demon hell-bent on releasing Lucifer and jump starting the Apocalypse is unfair in my opinion. I'm sure 5 or 6 people will tell me why I am wrong. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-27 21:09
Quoting anonomousN- "Which was the mistake made by Sam..But he might have thought that Dean is not manipulative like Ruby..But alas Dean was Sam's Ruby this season."

Sorry but I don't see it as the same at all. Ruby had a long time agenda. She worked and manipulated for years to get Sam to trust her. She then used Sam to kill Lilith resulting in the rise of Lucifer. Dean made a mistake in agreeing to allow Ezekiel to possess Sam. It was done in haste and grief. It was wrong. The object was to save and heal his brother. And yes, I know it was selfish and impulsive and did not takes Sam's wishes into account. His brother was dying before his eyes! Not saying it was a right decision but comparing Dean to an evil demon hell-bent on releasing Lucifer and jump starting the Apocalypse is unfair in my opinion. I'm sure 5 or 6 people will tell me why I am wrong. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 21:20
Well I think you are totally right. So there.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-27 21:20
Well I think you are totally right. So there.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 21:36
Quoting eilf:
Quoting cheryl42:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.


If Dean hadn't have abandoned Cas (who always makes the wrong decision because he is 'too trusting') to go after Sam and stop him from doing what Sam knew needed to be done:

- Cas wouldn't have decided to go to heaven,

- Metatron couldn't have used him as part of the spell,

- the gates of heaven would have stayed open (at least long enough for Sam to go there, and then Sam would have been on the inside, maybe able to fight Metatron

- Sam would have gone to heaven (or if he was due to go back to hell would have ended up in limbo since the gates of hell would have been closed).

- Cas would have not been human and not died and needed reviving

- Charlie would not have died,

- Kevin would not have died,

- Crowley would have been human

- Kevin would have been able to get information that his mother was still alive and maybe rescue her

- Sam would no longer be being tormented by his unmitigatedly awful life, none of which suffering he has deserved

-Dean would be free of the burden on himself he has chosen to make Sam.

-Sam would be free of the totally undeserved burden on him that is Dean's impression that Sam is Dean's burden.


If this all would have happened then we would have ended the show at season 8. But it didn't happen that way and we are where we are.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-27 21:36
Quote:
Quote:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.
If Dean hadn't have abandoned Cas (who always makes the wrong decision because he is 'too trusting') to go after Sam and stop him from doing what Sam knew needed to be done:

- Cas wouldn't have decided to go to heaven,

- Metatron couldn't have used him as part of the spell,

- the gates of heaven would have stayed open (at least long enough for Sam to go there, and then Sam would have been on the inside, maybe able to fight Metatron

- Sam would have gone to heaven (or if he was due to go back to hell would have ended up in limbo since the gates of hell would have been closed).

- Cas would have not been human and not died and needed reviving

- Charlie would not have died,

- Kevin would not have died,

- Crowley would have been human

- Kevin would have been able to get information that his mother was still alive and maybe rescue her

- Sam would no longer be being tormented by his unmitigatedly awful life, none of which suffering he has deserved

-Dean would be free of the burden on himself he has chosen to make Sam.

-Sam would be free of the totally undeserved burden on him that is Dean's impression that Sam is Dean's burden.
If this all would have happened then we would have ended the show at season 8. But it didn't happen that way and we are where we are.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-27 21:45
:-) Thanks Cheryl!

I spell anonymousN wrong half the time and I have spell check....Sorry.
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-27 21:45
:-) Thanks Cheryl!

I spell anonymousN wrong half the time and I have spell check....Sorry.
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-27 22:00
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting eilf:
Quoting cheryl42:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.


If Dean hadn't have abandoned Cas (who always makes the wrong decision because he is 'too trusting') to go after Sam and stop him from doing what Sam knew needed to be done:

- Cas wouldn't have decided to go to heaven,

- Metatron couldn't have used him as part of the spell,

- the gates of heaven would have stayed open (at least long enough for Sam to go there, and then Sam would have been on the inside, maybe able to fight Metatron

- Sam would have gone to heaven (or if he was due to go back to hell would have ended up in limbo since the gates of hell would have been closed).

- Cas would have not been human and not died and needed reviving

- Charlie would not have died,

- Kevin would not have died,

- Crowley would have been human

- Kevin would have been able to get information that his mother was still alive and maybe rescue her

- Sam would no longer be being tormented by his unmitigatedly awful life, none of which suffering he has deserved

-Dean would be free of the burden on himself he has chosen to make Sam.

-Sam would be free of the totally undeserved burden on him that is Dean's impression that Sam is Dean's burden.


If this all would have happened then we would have ended the show at season 8. But it didn't happen that way and we are where we are.

Which is Sam's issue with all this. The one he is being castigated for.
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-27 22:00
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
JJ I have already said this but the natural order was disrupted by Sam being saved/possessed. A domino affect where maybe events that happened wouldn't have happened. Dean would have gone to Cas once Sam had died, Charlie wouldn't have come to the bunker because Sam wouldn't have been there to call her in. Mrs. Tran would or wouldn't have been saved depending on what happened to Kevin. If he had died anyway, since Metatron was after him, he would have still tried to contact Dean whether Sam was alive or not. But on the other hand as Cas said in ITB all roads lead to the same destination. This story line was probably destiny and couldn't have been changed anyway. Since Sam and Dean seem to be destined for a greater purpose they both need to be alive. Apparently it is also vital to the show.
If Dean hadn't have abandoned Cas (who always makes the wrong decision because he is 'too trusting') to go after Sam and stop him from doing what Sam knew needed to be done:

- Cas wouldn't have decided to go to heaven,

- Metatron couldn't have used him as part of the spell,

- the gates of heaven would have stayed open (at least long enough for Sam to go there, and then Sam would have been on the inside, maybe able to fight Metatron

- Sam would have gone to heaven (or if he was due to go back to hell would have ended up in limbo since the gates of hell would have been closed).

- Cas would have not been human and not died and needed reviving

- Charlie would not have died,

- Kevin would not have died,

- Crowley would have been human

- Kevin would have been able to get information that his mother was still alive and maybe rescue her

- Sam would no longer be being tormented by his unmitigatedly awful life, none of which suffering he has deserved

-Dean would be free of the burden on himself he has chosen to make Sam.

-Sam would be free of the totally undeserved burden on him that is Dean's impression that Sam is Dean's burden.
If this all would have happened then we would have ended the show at season 8. But it didn't happen that way and we are where we are.
Which is Sam's issue with all this. The one he is being castigated for.
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-27 22:29
Quoting cheryl42:
You know I never could figure out why Dean needed to go with Cas in the first place. He didn't help in any way. The only reason seemed to be a plot device to get Dean to where Naomi could tell him that Sam would die finishing the trials. Other than that Dean got a beer.
I think Cas would have still ended up in heaven because he had to take Cupids bow to Metatron.
So the heaven thing might still have happened. But then Dean would have had only angels to deal with instead demons as well.
Kevin's translation of the trials pretty much said that the one doing the trials should not fear danger nor death nor having your spine ripped out of your mouth for all eternity. Sam would have been in for a pretty rough time.
I think that Sam is doomed to suffer forever no matter what his choices are. :sad:


I think you are right about that last point ... I am really at the point where I would rather watch Dukes of Hazzard (in all its shallow sexism) than the Kafkaesque grotesqueness of Sam's life on this show.

Dean went with Cas as a backhanded compliment/apol ogy to Sam - which Sam didn't recognize because frankly at that stage Dean had changed his tune so many times that no one could have kept up with it. Sam heard Dean say to Cas that he (Sam) needed help. After the really awful attempt at 'humor' Dean had just pulled Sam assumed that meant 'a chaperone'. And Dean knew he would have had good reason to interpret it that way. The only way Dean could prove that it didn't mean that was to go with Cas after all.

If Dean hadn't been distracted he could have gotten Cas to wait and talk it through instead of going after Metatron. If the whole spell thing had taken 5 minutes longer Sam would have been dead and all the things I said would have happened instead. Which Sam has pointed out to Dean now.

In fairness I only really brought the subject up because there seems to be an aspect of 20/20 hindsight going on about how things wouldn't have been any different if Sam had died and so it isn't a valid reason for Sam to have an issue. (actually it is a pretty scary mindset that Sam has about his own worth, and it would be nice to think the writers are actually aware of that. 'You only did this for you because you can't be alone' can be read not only as an accusation but also as the plea of someone at the end of their emotional resources who feels that they have no place in the world any more)

In the church Dean was trying to save Sam from something he thought Sam didn't know and was shocked to discover he did know, maybe he could take a look at that issue too when he wonders why Sam has brought up the subject of that conversation.

What went down in the church never seemed to me to be about Sam wanting to live, it always seemed to be purely about Sam having had every bit of faith in himself drained away and believing that the one thing he could do to make it up to his brother was to not die because his brother wanted him not to.

Now that his brother has shown, and said, that he would do literally anything to prevent him dying regardless of his wishes the church conversation does seem like a betrayal to Sam because the way he sees it if he had gone ahead and finished the trials Dean would have done something to bring him back, something that would probably end up damaging Sam even further. And likely broken the world in the doing. Sam's sacrifice would have been worse than worthless it would have caused catastrophe. It wasn't a genuine choice for Sam, though it looked that way, it was just the first of a line of plans that Dean would have used to stop him being dead.

This is the reason why Sam is currently unable to just move past it or believe that 'family trumps everything'.
eilf
# eilf 2014-02-27 22:29
Quote:
You know I never could figure out why Dean needed to go with Cas in the first place. He didn't help in any way. The only reason seemed to be a plot device to get Dean to where Naomi could tell him that Sam would die finishing the trials. Other than that Dean got a beer.
I think Cas would have still ended up in heaven because he had to take Cupids bow to Metatron.
So the heaven thing might still have happened. But then Dean would have had only angels to deal with instead demons as well.
Kevin's translation of the trials pretty much said that the one doing the trials should not fear danger nor death nor having your spine ripped out of your mouth for all eternity. Sam would have been in for a pretty rough time.
I think that Sam is doomed to suffer forever no matter what his choices are. :sad:
I think you are right about that last point ... I am really at the point where I would rather watch Dukes of Hazzard (in all its shallow sexism) than the Kafkaesque grotesqueness of Sam's life on this show.

Dean went with Cas as a backhanded compliment/apol ogy to Sam - which Sam didn't recognize because frankly at that stage Dean had changed his tune so many times that no one could have kept up with it. Sam heard Dean say to Cas that he (Sam) needed help. After the really awful attempt at 'humor' Dean had just pulled Sam assumed that meant 'a chaperone'. And Dean knew he would have had good reason to interpret it that way. The only way Dean could prove that it didn't mean that was to go with Cas after all.

If Dean hadn't been distracted he could have gotten Cas to wait and talk it through instead of going after Metatron. If the whole spell thing had taken 5 minutes longer Sam would have been dead and all the things I said would have happened instead. Which Sam has pointed out to Dean now.

In fairness I only really brought the subject up because there seems to be an aspect of 20/20 hindsight going on about how things wouldn't have been any different if Sam had died and so it isn't a valid reason for Sam to have an issue. (actually it is a pretty scary mindset that Sam has about his own worth, and it would be nice to think the writers are actually aware of that. 'You only did this for you because you can't be alone' can be read not only as an accusation but also as the plea of someone at the end of their emotional resources who feels that they have no place in the world any more)

In the church Dean was trying to save Sam from something he thought Sam didn't know and was shocked to discover he did know, maybe he could take a look at that issue too when he wonders why Sam has brought up the subject of that conversation.

What went down in the church never seemed to me to be about Sam wanting to live, it always seemed to be purely about Sam having had every bit of faith in himself drained away and believing that the one thing he could do to make it up to his brother was to not die because his brother wanted him not to.

Now that his brother has shown, and said, that he would do literally anything to prevent him dying regardless of his wishes the church conversation does seem like a betrayal to Sam because the way he sees it if he had gone ahead and finished the trials Dean would have done something to bring him back, something that would probably end up damaging Sam even further. And likely broken the world in the doing. Sam's sacrifice would have been worse than worthless it would have caused catastrophe. It wasn't a genuine choice for Sam, though it looked that way, it was just the first of a line of plans that Dean would have used to stop him being dead.

This is the reason why Sam is currently unable to just move past it or believe that 'family trumps everything'.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-27 22:55
Gerry ,Thank you so much for your review. I will have to agree with a previous poster who said that they had not really enjoyed the episode until they read your review. Your very balanced review helps me to see points I have missed in the episode or something to think about in relation to the brotherhood.

What really struck me though was your last paragraph. "The current story is isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother." The thought of a Dean Winchester without love at his core is truely a heartbreaking concept. If Carver does this I really hope it is not for long because for me the heart of the show would be dead. I know Jensen would knock it out of the park, it would just be emotionally difficult to watch.

Anyway, thank you again. Looking forward to the rest of this amazing season. And on a shallow note that is one fine picture of Jensen/Dean.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-27 22:55
Gerry ,Thank you so much for your review. I will have to agree with a previous poster who said that they had not really enjoyed the episode until they read your review. Your very balanced review helps me to see points I have missed in the episode or something to think about in relation to the brotherhood.

What really struck me though was your last paragraph. "The current story is isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother." The thought of a Dean Winchester without love at his core is truely a heartbreaking concept. If Carver does this I really hope it is not for long because for me the heart of the show would be dead. I know Jensen would knock it out of the park, it would just be emotionally difficult to watch.

Anyway, thank you again. Looking forward to the rest of this amazing season. And on a shallow note that is one fine picture of Jensen/Dean.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-28 00:08
"The current story is isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother. "

This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-28 00:08
"The current story is isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother. "

This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-28 01:19
Quoting leah d:
Quoting anonomousN- "Which was the mistake made by Sam..But he might have thought that Dean is not manipulative like Ruby..But alas Dean was Sam's Ruby this season."

Sorry but I don't see it as the same at all. Ruby had a long time agenda. She worked and manipulated for years to get Sam to trust her. She then used Sam to kill Lilith resulting in the rise of Lucifer. Dean made a mistake in agreeing to allow Ezekiel to possess Sam. It was done in haste and grief. It was wrong. The object was to save and heal his brother. And yes, I know it was selfish and impulsive and did not takes Sam's wishes into account. His brother was dying before his eyes! Not saying it was a right decision but comparing Dean to an evil demon hell-bent on releasing Lucifer and jump starting the Apocalypse is unfair in my opinion. I'm sure 5 or 6 people will tell me why I am wrong. :-)

What I meant was Sam trusted Ruby then and he trusted Dean now..but both of them used that trust to manipulated him and told to him half truths and lied outright at times.They withheld facts so that Sam sees a situation in a way they want.The conversation in cabin where Death was there was a clear play of words by Dean/gad.That is what I meant by similarity between Dean and Ruby.
and about misspelling my screen name well I always smile when that happens.I remember when you used to not sign in ( each time you commented you had a letter added or removed from your name)it was funny then and it is funny now.No need of sorry at all i was never offended. :lol:
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-28 01:19
Quote:
Quoting anonomousN- "Which was the mistake made by Sam..But he might have thought that Dean is not manipulative like Ruby..But alas Dean was Sam's Ruby this season."

Sorry but I don't see it as the same at all. Ruby had a long time agenda. She worked and manipulated for years to get Sam to trust her. She then used Sam to kill Lilith resulting in the rise of Lucifer. Dean made a mistake in agreeing to allow Ezekiel to possess Sam. It was done in haste and grief. It was wrong. The object was to save and heal his brother. And yes, I know it was selfish and impulsive and did not takes Sam's wishes into account. His brother was dying before his eyes! Not saying it was a right decision but comparing Dean to an evil demon hell-bent on releasing Lucifer and jump starting the Apocalypse is unfair in my opinion. I'm sure 5 or 6 people will tell me why I am wrong. :-)
What I meant was Sam trusted Ruby then and he trusted Dean now..but both of them used that trust to manipulated him and told to him half truths and lied outright at times.They withheld facts so that Sam sees a situation in a way they want.The conversation in cabin where Death was there was a clear play of words by Dean/gad.That is what I meant by similarity between Dean and Ruby.
and about misspelling my screen name well I always smile when that happens.I remember when you used to not sign in ( each time you commented you had a letter added or removed from your name)it was funny then and it is funny now.No need of sorry at all i was never offended. :lol:
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-28 03:17
Quoting Evelyn:
"The current story is isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother. "

This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me.

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-28 03:17
Quote:
"The current story is isolating Dean more and more, which will give power to the Mark of Cain. A Dean who does not have love at his core is a frightening prospect. A Dean without his bond to Sam will have similarities to Sam without his soul. I think Sam will recognize what he’s lost when Dean loses faith in their brotherhood. And he’ll have to decide what he’ll do to save his brother. "

This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me.
Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 07:16
the focus is so much on dean and how upset he is because sam is angry with him that i don't think that some see the true ramifications of what dean has done to his brother.
i'm going to word this as carefully as possible because i don't want anyone to think i'm calling or comparing dean to a rapist, because that is not the case. i am merely trying to point out the similar circumstances suffered by a victim of rape and the circumstances in which sam experienced.
i think most can agree that a victim of rape experiences a loss of control. they are overcome by their attacker and no longer have control of the situation. they no longer have control over what is happening to them. i think it's also safe to say that a victim of rape experiences an invasion of their body. there is no consent given by the victim for the attacker to invade their body and thus also invading their minds as well. and i also think it's safe to say that a victim of rape can not so easity forget what's happened them. it's not so easy to forgive and forget what their attacker has done to them. they are definitely given as much time as they need to process and deal with what has happened.
so if we look at what's happened to sam. sam lost control of his situation. he made a decision that was overridden. every time gad took over, sam lost control of his entire being. he had his memory swiped so he lost control of his own thought process. sam's body was invaded without his actual consent. he was tricked/manipul ated into saying yes when all he knew was that he thought he was saying yes to his brother. so sam's mind and body were violated. sam has experienced almost identical traumas that a rape victim experiences,( major difference being rape is an act of violence) yet sam is not given the same consideration.
sam is expected to move on. he's expected to be nice to dean because dean did it out of love. he was saving his brother. of course, therein lies sam's conflict. he knows this. he knows dean saved him, he knows deep down beneath all his distrust that it was an act of love. but he also knows that in order to do that dean allowed sam's person to be violated. his every thought. his every feeling an open book to a stranger. kids get pissed if their diaries are read. not only that. this invader of sam's body took control of him whenever he saw fit and swiped sam's mind over and over. he used sam to kill. not to mention dean voluntarily calling on gad, pushing sam back down deep within his own body. all of these memories are now sam's.
now sam is left to find a way to reconcile what happened to him with the fact that it was his brother who allowed it all in the first place.
he's supposed to forget all the trauma and show mercy to dean because dean saved him. yes he saved him, but he also allowed him to be violated in such a way that sam would've rather died.
sam loves dean but i don't see how it's mentally/emotio nally possible right now for sam to get over what's happened to him. i don't see why he should be expected to take it easy on dean right now simply because dean can't handle the fact that sam is incapable right now of making this about him.
how does dean manage to take a wrong that was done to sam and make it about him?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 07:16
the focus is so much on dean and how upset he is because sam is angry with him that i don't think that some see the true ramifications of what dean has done to his brother.
i'm going to word this as carefully as possible because i don't want anyone to think i'm calling or comparing dean to a rapist, because that is not the case. i am merely trying to point out the similar circumstances suffered by a victim of rape and the circumstances in which sam experienced.
i think most can agree that a victim of rape experiences a loss of control. they are overcome by their attacker and no longer have control of the situation. they no longer have control over what is happening to them. i think it's also safe to say that a victim of rape experiences an invasion of their body. there is no consent given by the victim for the attacker to invade their body and thus also invading their minds as well. and i also think it's safe to say that a victim of rape can not so easity forget what's happened them. it's not so easy to forgive and forget what their attacker has done to them. they are definitely given as much time as they need to process and deal with what has happened.
so if we look at what's happened to sam. sam lost control of his situation. he made a decision that was overridden. every time gad took over, sam lost control of his entire being. he had his memory swiped so he lost control of his own thought process. sam's body was invaded without his actual consent. he was tricked/manipul ated into saying yes when all he knew was that he thought he was saying yes to his brother. so sam's mind and body were violated. sam has experienced almost identical traumas that a rape victim experiences,( major difference being rape is an act of violence) yet sam is not given the same consideration.
sam is expected to move on. he's expected to be nice to dean because dean did it out of love. he was saving his brother. of course, therein lies sam's conflict. he knows this. he knows dean saved him, he knows deep down beneath all his distrust that it was an act of love. but he also knows that in order to do that dean allowed sam's person to be violated. his every thought. his every feeling an open book to a stranger. kids get pissed if their diaries are read. not only that. this invader of sam's body took control of him whenever he saw fit and swiped sam's mind over and over. he used sam to kill. not to mention dean voluntarily calling on gad, pushing sam back down deep within his own body. all of these memories are now sam's.
now sam is left to find a way to reconcile what happened to him with the fact that it was his brother who allowed it all in the first place.
he's supposed to forget all the trauma and show mercy to dean because dean saved him. yes he saved him, but he also allowed him to be violated in such a way that sam would've rather died.
sam loves dean but i don't see how it's mentally/emotio nally possible right now for sam to get over what's happened to him. i don't see why he should be expected to take it easy on dean right now simply because dean can't handle the fact that sam is incapable right now of making this about him.
how does dean manage to take a wrong that was done to sam and make it about him?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 07:29
i have to disagree that it is sam who has isolated dean. it is dean who has isolated dean. dean is the one who first walked out on sam. but before sam left, he told him to go but not to go thinking that was the problem.(dean being poison). sam told dean in sharp teeth they could be partners but to be brothers, that will take work. i believe that sam had an inkling of hope that he was getting to dean when he saw dean hadn't slept and asked if it was because of what he said. that dean would actually talk to sam. but no instead, dean pulled the you want to play this game, i'll play card. again at the end of the purge sam told dean he wouldn't save him the same way circumstances reversed. he gave dean yet another opening to talk to him. instead of doing that, dean chose to continue with the i'm going to be just your partner.crap. sam telling dean that they could be partners but it would take more to be brothers was sam's attempt to fix things. to get dean to understand how hurt and angry sam is. (not unlike sam's ulitmatum with benny) kind of a slap in the face to get dean to listen to him. because unfortunately sam has never been the type to just punch dean in the face to get his attention like dean has done to sam. i wish he would just punch the crap out of dean. dean needs to learn and come to understand himself what the problem is, if he's spoon fed it's just in one ear and out the other. sam has been trying to get dean to see where he is coming from, to at least ask sam what is it that you're exactly angry about? to show some indication that dean is sorry. but dean hasn't done any of that. instead of really listening to sam's plea to fix things, he'd rather take the approach of I'd rather be right. he's isolating himself from sam. sam may have left kevin because it was all too much for him...but that didn't mean dean couldn't have knocked on his door.

i have no doubt that sam will reach the point where he'll forgive and eventually understand dean. like i said he loves his brother and it's a struggle for him to be grateful(which i do think he is) and so very upset. the inner turmoil exudes from sam's pores. i mean i know that talk is coming. dean will also get where sam is coming from. it's all going to be worth it.
but for now, i don't understand why sam needs to decide a course of action. how can he decide anything right now? he hasn't even had the chance to process everything yet and he's only just been exonerated of his guilt over kevin.
i'm sorry that dean is feeling rejected right now. i'm sorry that dean can't seem to comprehend sam's anger. i'm sorry that dean can't see that an apology is a start to making things right again. not an i'd do it all again....but i'm sorry for the pain that you suffered when i saved you. something like that. what i'm really sorry about is the fact that dean is taking a wrong that he did to his brother, turning the situation around and making it all about how sam is doing wrong by him. the pity party needs to end.
i don't agree that sam's personal distance from his brother at the moment would blind him from seeing changes in dean's behavior. sam would know if something was wrong with dean angry or not...and he would help his brother, angry or not. i have no doubt that sam will end up saving his brother. i have no doubt that everything will be ok.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 07:29
i have to disagree that it is sam who has isolated dean. it is dean who has isolated dean. dean is the one who first walked out on sam. but before sam left, he told him to go but not to go thinking that was the problem.(dean being poison). sam told dean in sharp teeth they could be partners but to be brothers, that will take work. i believe that sam had an inkling of hope that he was getting to dean when he saw dean hadn't slept and asked if it was because of what he said. that dean would actually talk to sam. but no instead, dean pulled the you want to play this game, i'll play card. again at the end of the purge sam told dean he wouldn't save him the same way circumstances reversed. he gave dean yet another opening to talk to him. instead of doing that, dean chose to continue with the i'm going to be just your partner.crap. sam telling dean that they could be partners but it would take more to be brothers was sam's attempt to fix things. to get dean to understand how hurt and angry sam is. (not unlike sam's ulitmatum with benny) kind of a slap in the face to get dean to listen to him. because unfortunately sam has never been the type to just punch dean in the face to get his attention like dean has done to sam. i wish he would just punch the crap out of dean. dean needs to learn and come to understand himself what the problem is, if he's spoon fed it's just in one ear and out the other. sam has been trying to get dean to see where he is coming from, to at least ask sam what is it that you're exactly angry about? to show some indication that dean is sorry. but dean hasn't done any of that. instead of really listening to sam's plea to fix things, he'd rather take the approach of I'd rather be right. he's isolating himself from sam. sam may have left kevin because it was all too much for him...but that didn't mean dean couldn't have knocked on his door.

i have no doubt that sam will reach the point where he'll forgive and eventually understand dean. like i said he loves his brother and it's a struggle for him to be grateful(which i do think he is) and so very upset. the inner turmoil exudes from sam's pores. i mean i know that talk is coming. dean will also get where sam is coming from. it's all going to be worth it.
but for now, i don't understand why sam needs to decide a course of action. how can he decide anything right now? he hasn't even had the chance to process everything yet and he's only just been exonerated of his guilt over kevin.
i'm sorry that dean is feeling rejected right now. i'm sorry that dean can't seem to comprehend sam's anger. i'm sorry that dean can't see that an apology is a start to making things right again. not an i'd do it all again....but i'm sorry for the pain that you suffered when i saved you. something like that. what i'm really sorry about is the fact that dean is taking a wrong that he did to his brother, turning the situation around and making it all about how sam is doing wrong by him. the pity party needs to end.
i don't agree that sam's personal distance from his brother at the moment would blind him from seeing changes in dean's behavior. sam would know if something was wrong with dean angry or not...and he would help his brother, angry or not. i have no doubt that sam will end up saving his brother. i have no doubt that everything will be ok.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-28 08:42
I also think that everything will be alright. I have tried to stray away from blaming either of the brothers. Because fights always have two parties and both sides are not innocent then.
I also have liked every episode of Supernatural. Maybe I don't take it too serious or something? Who knows, but I welcome the change and new ideas. (Even Leviathan's that I didn't fancy that much)
I don't also want to argue which of the brothers have more screen time because it doesn't really matter to me.

What on my point of view is happening is Dean finally getting "the whole story". I don't think he blames Sam on anything. The one he is blaming is himself and big time. Dean's acting is turning suicidal/self hurting almost. And he is going deeper and deeper. Will the mark of Cain and the blade when he holds it finally on his hand turn him evil? Dean without Sam and the love for his brother and Sam seeing his brother maybe lose it will make everything explode.

I have been actually waiting Cass to see the mark and kick Dean's behind. Like many has said. What ever will happen is not good. And I am sure Sam plays a big part to save his big brother.

What ever it will be... I will eagerly await it.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-28 08:42
I also think that everything will be alright. I have tried to stray away from blaming either of the brothers. Because fights always have two parties and both sides are not innocent then.
I also have liked every episode of Supernatural. Maybe I don't take it too serious or something? Who knows, but I welcome the change and new ideas. (Even Leviathan's that I didn't fancy that much)
I don't also want to argue which of the brothers have more screen time because it doesn't really matter to me.

What on my point of view is happening is Dean finally getting "the whole story". I don't think he blames Sam on anything. The one he is blaming is himself and big time. Dean's acting is turning suicidal/self hurting almost. And he is going deeper and deeper. Will the mark of Cain and the blade when he holds it finally on his hand turn him evil? Dean without Sam and the love for his brother and Sam seeing his brother maybe lose it will make everything explode.

I have been actually waiting Cass to see the mark and kick Dean's behind. Like many has said. What ever will happen is not good. And I am sure Sam plays a big part to save his big brother.

What ever it will be... I will eagerly await it.
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-28 09:53
Thank you Gerry. I loved this quote: "But the value of Dean and Sam’s bond is also important. Cas has been acting as relationship counselor to both Winchesters, and his position is that while the ends don’t always justify the means, motivations do matter. Dean’s motivations matter."

I don't believe it devalues Sam's to feel that Dean's motivations matter. Just as Dean's motivations don't justify what he did. While I fully understand why other fans see it as a black & white situation, I'm enjoying the beautiful shades of gray!
mary9930
# mary9930 2014-02-28 09:53
Thank you Gerry. I loved this quote: "But the value of Dean and Sam’s bond is also important. Cas has been acting as relationship counselor to both Winchesters, and his position is that while the ends don’t always justify the means, motivations do matter. Dean’s motivations matter."

I don't believe it devalues Sam's to feel that Dean's motivations matter. Just as Dean's motivations don't justify what he did. While I fully understand why other fans see it as a black & white situation, I'm enjoying the beautiful shades of gray!
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 10:10
"This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me."

Evelyn, I agree with this statement so so much. Dean will really need someone he can trust and can depend on to ground him. Hopefully that will be Sam and Cas as he has done for both of them in the past.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 10:10
"This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me."

Evelyn, I agree with this statement so so much. Dean will really need someone he can trust and can depend on to ground him. Hopefully that will be Sam and Cas as he has done for both of them in the past.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-28 10:18
Quoting Bluepony:
"This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me."

Evelyn, I agree with this statement so so much. Dean will really need someone he can trust and can depend on to ground him. Hopefully that will be Sam and Cas as he has done for both of them in the past.


Well Cas he did explain things to I think he told the truth about everything that happened. Dean just has not reached out to cas which worries me. IF sam is not talking to him then cas would be a life line of some kind but I think its speaking volumes that he is not praying to cas or communicating with him. Its like he is pushing him away.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-28 10:18
Quote:
"This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me."

Evelyn, I agree with this statement so so much. Dean will really need someone he can trust and can depend on to ground him. Hopefully that will be Sam and Cas as he has done for both of them in the past.
Well Cas he did explain things to I think he told the truth about everything that happened. Dean just has not reached out to cas which worries me. IF sam is not talking to him then cas would be a life line of some kind but I think its speaking volumes that he is not praying to cas or communicating with him. Its like he is pushing him away.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 11:32
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting Bluepony:
"This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me."

Evelyn, I agree with this statement so so much. Dean will really need someone he can trust and can depend on to ground him. Hopefully that will be Sam and Cas as he has done for both of them in the past.


Well Cas he did explain things to I think he told the truth about everything that happened. Dean just has not reached out to cas which worries me. IF sam is not talking to him then cas would be a life line of some kind but I think its speaking volumes that he is not praying to cas or communicating with him. Its like he is pushing him away.


Suebsg9 that makes perfect sense to me. Dean is so isolated he probable feels he has no one he can turn to. I would definitely feel better if Dean contacted Cas. Cas would probable know things about the Mark of Cain that Dean needs to be aware of. Of course, Cas may feel like shaking Dean for "running towards death" again. Love this show.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-28 11:32
Quote:
Quote:
"This statement scares me more than anything at this moment. Back in Season 5 when the brothers came back together again after Dean's experience in the future, Dean told Sam that they need to stay together because they keep each other human. THAT has always been the case. Sam needs Dean, just as much as Dean needs Sam. They really do need to recognize and accept that, because Dean is sinking further and further into the darkest depths and if he sinks too much more, I am not sure if even Sam can save him. And that really and truly scares the Hell out of me."

Evelyn, I agree with this statement so so much. Dean will really need someone he can trust and can depend on to ground him. Hopefully that will be Sam and Cas as he has done for both of them in the past.
Well Cas he did explain things to I think he told the truth about everything that happened. Dean just has not reached out to cas which worries me. IF sam is not talking to him then cas would be a life line of some kind but I think its speaking volumes that he is not praying to cas or communicating with him. Its like he is pushing him away.
Suebsg9 that makes perfect sense to me. Dean is so isolated he probable feels he has no one he can turn to. I would definitely feel better if Dean contacted Cas. Cas would probable know things about the Mark of Cain that Dean needs to be aware of. Of course, Cas may feel like shaking Dean for "running towards death" again. Love this show.
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-28 12:28
I had totally forgotten that Dean has not been normal even with Castiel. Not praying and not talking to him. He said he was sorry to push him out of their bunker but after that totally nothing.

I really would like to know more about the maaaaark, (damn writers) and the small print that Oh, as usual smart DEAN didn't ask. Okay, that was a moment I wanted to smack him. Literally.

At least the writers makes the viewers go nuts...
Lilah Kane
# Lilah Kane 2014-02-28 12:28
I had totally forgotten that Dean has not been normal even with Castiel. Not praying and not talking to him. He said he was sorry to push him out of their bunker but after that totally nothing.

I really would like to know more about the maaaaark, (damn writers) and the small print that Oh, as usual smart DEAN didn't ask. Okay, that was a moment I wanted to smack him. Literally.

At least the writers makes the viewers go nuts...
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-28 14:55
@nappi815: I'm totally in love with you! and want to have all your love-children!

A more eloquently expressed reason for Sam's attitude and Dean's situation has never been better stated by anyone in all of fandom.

Virtual Bon-Bons for you!
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-28 14:55
@nappi815: I'm totally in love with you! and want to have all your love-children!

A more eloquently expressed reason for Sam's attitude and Dean's situation has never been better stated by anyone in all of fandom.

Virtual Bon-Bons for you!
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 15:12
i definitely don't believe that sam lied to kevin about letting go. it's perfectly understandable that sam letting go isn't going to happen instantly. i don't agree that sam isn't talking to dean. i will concede that sam isn't saying what dean would like to hear. the reverse is also true. they both have so much to say, but i don't honestly think either one of them are ready to say it. i understand sam's reasons. what i don't understand is dean's.
i was thinking in the car on my way to work about my earlier post and i'm asking myself ..self, do you think dean is that selfish? dismissing what he's done to sam and turning it around and making it as though he is the one being wronged? and my answer to myself was no.
last season, if i can go back for just a second, dean crossed the line with sam when he sent that text. he pushed sam too far and he knew it when sam delivered the ultimatum in regards to benny. dean knows all about ultimatums. i don't doubt that the moment sam made his he understood that he'd really hurt sam, probably more than he'd intended. he even said as much to charlie. what dean did this time pretty much also crossed the line for sam as well. enough where sam uttered the words that dean probably never thought he'd ever hear...sam's trust in him was broken.
now sam is asking dean questions that i believe he's starting to ask himself. and i was thinking that maybe dean is afraid of what his answers might be. dean will walk right towards a monster, demon, bullet but when it comes to dealing with his own personal demons he turns tail and runs; he avoids it like the plague. he instead buries everything down deep.
lilah your view is that dean is getting the whole picture and is putting the blame on himself. if that 's the case then i have to wonder, why doesn't he just tell sam he's sorry for the way in which he saved him. i think that's all sam really needs from dean at this time, is affirmation that dean truly understands why sam is so upset with him. two words from dean and the dam would break for both of them.
dean made a comment to bella back in s3 ...you would rather shell out 10 grand than to say thank you?
bella replied she didnt like owing anyone
dean's reply: you are so damaged.
talk about calling the kettle black. instead of two simple words to sam, i'm sorry, dean would rather wallow in guilt and isolate himself from everyone around him.
do you not see a dangerous pattern with dean? he's done this before and as a result he almost said yes to michael.
i'm not sure the moc is to blame for dean's behavior. he's done this all before. i hate to go psych 101, ,but i think it's more about dean's inability to face himself.
when dean told sam back in s5 that he would say yes to michael and sam asked why..the first thing dean said if i'm recalling correctly was that he was tired. he actually said that alot in s5. i'm tired or i'm done. he followed up that he didn't believe in sam. that he didn't trust him, but i never really believed that. i never thought it was about not trusting in sam. i always thought it was about bowing out. he was just so done with it that he wanted to quit. just let michael have him so he doesn't have to do it anymore. it wasn't so much about giving up on sam. he gave up on himself. but sam didn't. he was the only one who didn't .
i'm feeling deja vu all over again. i think that when things get too much for dean, i mean really too much, that he gives up. he stops fighting. he sinks into . darkness. he becomes reckless and suicidal. i think that's what's happening now.
the thing is, if dean just would tell sam he was sorry, that would lead to the "talk" we've all been waiting for. so why can't dean say it? i for one think he is sorry. so what's stopping him?
i think it goes back to his inability to face himself. those two words from dean will most likely lead to dean having to face truths about himself that perhaps he's afraid to face. he has been burying crap for so long that if he opens up a deluge will come pouring out of him.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 15:12
i definitely don't believe that sam lied to kevin about letting go. it's perfectly understandable that sam letting go isn't going to happen instantly. i don't agree that sam isn't talking to dean. i will concede that sam isn't saying what dean would like to hear. the reverse is also true. they both have so much to say, but i don't honestly think either one of them are ready to say it. i understand sam's reasons. what i don't understand is dean's.
i was thinking in the car on my way to work about my earlier post and i'm asking myself ..self, do you think dean is that selfish? dismissing what he's done to sam and turning it around and making it as though he is the one being wronged? and my answer to myself was no.
last season, if i can go back for just a second, dean crossed the line with sam when he sent that text. he pushed sam too far and he knew it when sam delivered the ultimatum in regards to benny. dean knows all about ultimatums. i don't doubt that the moment sam made his he understood that he'd really hurt sam, probably more than he'd intended. he even said as much to charlie. what dean did this time pretty much also crossed the line for sam as well. enough where sam uttered the words that dean probably never thought he'd ever hear...sam's trust in him was broken.
now sam is asking dean questions that i believe he's starting to ask himself. and i was thinking that maybe dean is afraid of what his answers might be. dean will walk right towards a monster, demon, bullet but when it comes to dealing with his own personal demons he turns tail and runs; he avoids it like the plague. he instead buries everything down deep.
lilah your view is that dean is getting the whole picture and is putting the blame on himself. if that 's the case then i have to wonder, why doesn't he just tell sam he's sorry for the way in which he saved him. i think that's all sam really needs from dean at this time, is affirmation that dean truly understands why sam is so upset with him. two words from dean and the dam would break for both of them.
dean made a comment to bella back in s3 ...you would rather shell out 10 grand than to say thank you?
bella replied she didnt like owing anyone
dean's reply: you are so damaged.
talk about calling the kettle black. instead of two simple words to sam, i'm sorry, dean would rather wallow in guilt and isolate himself from everyone around him.
do you not see a dangerous pattern with dean? he's done this before and as a result he almost said yes to michael.
i'm not sure the moc is to blame for dean's behavior. he's done this all before. i hate to go psych 101, ,but i think it's more about dean's inability to face himself.
when dean told sam back in s5 that he would say yes to michael and sam asked why..the first thing dean said if i'm recalling correctly was that he was tired. he actually said that alot in s5. i'm tired or i'm done. he followed up that he didn't believe in sam. that he didn't trust him, but i never really believed that. i never thought it was about not trusting in sam. i always thought it was about bowing out. he was just so done with it that he wanted to quit. just let michael have him so he doesn't have to do it anymore. it wasn't so much about giving up on sam. he gave up on himself. but sam didn't. he was the only one who didn't .
i'm feeling deja vu all over again. i think that when things get too much for dean, i mean really too much, that he gives up. he stops fighting. he sinks into . darkness. he becomes reckless and suicidal. i think that's what's happening now.
the thing is, if dean just would tell sam he was sorry, that would lead to the "talk" we've all been waiting for. so why can't dean say it? i for one think he is sorry. so what's stopping him?
i think it goes back to his inability to face himself. those two words from dean will most likely lead to dean having to face truths about himself that perhaps he's afraid to face. he has been burying crap for so long that if he opens up a deluge will come pouring out of him.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 15:18
i don't think cas is dean's answer. sam is. sam is dean's lifeline. sam is the only one who will get dean to open up and let it all go. sam will be the one who will get dean to face his greatest enemy..himself.
it's just going to take a few more episodes because sam still needs time to heal. he needs time to sort out his feelings. he needs time to figure out what to say to his brother in a way that dean will understand.
sam wants to fix things with his brother but it's going to take some time. it's getting done a little at a time. eppy by eppy. at least the momentum is still there. nobody has yet swept anything under the rug.
i think captives was the beginning of the melting stage for sam. it's just going to be a few more eps . maybe misha's ep will be the one where the boys start coming together..that' s eppy 17..that's been the magic number in the past.
this season has the same kind of feel of last season though. it's all very episodic. we're not getting what we want to happen all in one shot. it's almost like a soap opera. you know one day in a soap literally lasts an entire week. i do love that all of the episodes this season have tied into ea other. like if you binge watched the entire season, it would feel like a movie. i don't think we're going to have to wait until the finale to get the talk. i think it's going to happen much sooner than that. but i do agree that it's going to take another season to deal with angels, the moc, ,metatron and crowley.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 15:18
i don't think cas is dean's answer. sam is. sam is dean's lifeline. sam is the only one who will get dean to open up and let it all go. sam will be the one who will get dean to face his greatest enemy..himself.
it's just going to take a few more episodes because sam still needs time to heal. he needs time to sort out his feelings. he needs time to figure out what to say to his brother in a way that dean will understand.
sam wants to fix things with his brother but it's going to take some time. it's getting done a little at a time. eppy by eppy. at least the momentum is still there. nobody has yet swept anything under the rug.
i think captives was the beginning of the melting stage for sam. it's just going to be a few more eps . maybe misha's ep will be the one where the boys start coming together..that' s eppy 17..that's been the magic number in the past.
this season has the same kind of feel of last season though. it's all very episodic. we're not getting what we want to happen all in one shot. it's almost like a soap opera. you know one day in a soap literally lasts an entire week. i do love that all of the episodes this season have tied into ea other. like if you binge watched the entire season, it would feel like a movie. i don't think we're going to have to wait until the finale to get the talk. i think it's going to happen much sooner than that. but i do agree that it's going to take another season to deal with angels, the moc, ,metatron and crowley.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 16:08
Quoting lkeke35:
@nappi815: I'm totally in love with you! and want to have all your love-children!

A more eloquently expressed reason for Sam's attitude and Dean's situation has never been better stated by anyone in all of fandom.

Virtual Bon-Bons for you!

:lol: thank you. virtual bon bons sound delish...and i appreciate that there is less guilt when i indulge in them...i will gladly share. ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-28 16:08
Quote:
@nappi815: I'm totally in love with you! and want to have all your love-children!

A more eloquently expressed reason for Sam's attitude and Dean's situation has never been better stated by anyone in all of fandom.

Virtual Bon-Bons for you!
:lol: thank you. virtual bon bons sound delish...and i appreciate that there is less guilt when i indulge in them...i will gladly share. ;-)
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-28 17:51
I think Dean is doubling down and being his usual stubborn self. Even as far back as Sam, Interrupted he said that was how he handled his feelings and even advisd Sam to do the same. In season seven, just after Bobby died, he was given the advice to tamp down and bury his feelings in order to keep doing the job and then later was given the same advice by another man he admired- Eliot Ness.

Dean has always been encouraged to behave that way by men he admired (w/ the sole exception being Bobby and Sam) and Sam knows this about him.
The only times Sam has ever gotten Dean to open up about how he feels is when he has badgerd him relentlessly- about their Dad, about Hell, all of season seven, about Purgatory. Sam has decided not to use that tactic this time. What he has decided to do is let Dean come to the correct conclusion after pushing him in the right direction, but Dean isn't trying to go. That is entirely in keeping with his mulish and stubborn nature, which as I said before, is a great asset on the battlefield ,but a terrible idea in one's personal life..

( Where the MoC may come in is that its simply making him more negative than he already is or making him more stubborn.) Also I think part of this stubborness stems from the idea that on a very deep level Dean does hate himself. We all know about his self- esteem issues but only a person who truly loathes who he is on some fundamental level, is unwilling to face himself at all.

And isn't that how demons are made? Hell gets you to do things you hate yourself for and because you're not given the option to stop doing these nasty things at the expense of others , the self loathing keeps building over time? And is that what the MoC is doing to Dean now, I wonder? Making him hate himself even more for the mistakes he's made?
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-28 17:51
I think Dean is doubling down and being his usual stubborn self. Even as far back as Sam, Interrupted he said that was how he handled his feelings and even advisd Sam to do the same. In season seven, just after Bobby died, he was given the advice to tamp down and bury his feelings in order to keep doing the job and then later was given the same advice by another man he admired- Eliot Ness.

Dean has always been encouraged to behave that way by men he admired (w/ the sole exception being Bobby and Sam) and Sam knows this about him.
The only times Sam has ever gotten Dean to open up about how he feels is when he has badgerd him relentlessly- about their Dad, about Hell, all of season seven, about Purgatory. Sam has decided not to use that tactic this time. What he has decided to do is let Dean come to the correct conclusion after pushing him in the right direction, but Dean isn't trying to go. That is entirely in keeping with his mulish and stubborn nature, which as I said before, is a great asset on the battlefield ,but a terrible idea in one's personal life..

( Where the MoC may come in is that its simply making him more negative than he already is or making him more stubborn.) Also I think part of this stubborness stems from the idea that on a very deep level Dean does hate himself. We all know about his self- esteem issues but only a person who truly loathes who he is on some fundamental level, is unwilling to face himself at all.

And isn't that how demons are made? Hell gets you to do things you hate yourself for and because you're not given the option to stop doing these nasty things at the expense of others , the self loathing keeps building over time? And is that what the MoC is doing to Dean now, I wonder? Making him hate himself even more for the mistakes he's made?
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-28 20:03
Quoting Sharon:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.


Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-28 20:03
Quote:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.
Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-02-28 20:35
Thank you Gerry. I haven't read the 4 pages of comments, but personally, I love your perspective and agree with your optimism.
nightsky
# nightsky 2014-02-28 20:35
Thank you Gerry. I haven't read the 4 pages of comments, but personally, I love your perspective and agree with your optimism.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-28 20:56
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting Sharon:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.


Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.


Guessing or hoping mark of cain goes into S10 also. And enjoying your perspective on what is going on with sam and what the mark maybe doing to Dean.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-28 20:56
Quote:
Quote:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.
Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.
Guessing or hoping mark of cain goes into S10 also. And enjoying your perspective on what is going on with sam and what the mark maybe doing to Dean.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-28 21:26
Quoting nightsky:
Thank you Gerry. I haven't read the 4 pages of comments, but personally, I love your perspective and agree with your optimism.


Thank you, Nightsky! I`m glad to feel the optimism. I was a little shaken for a couple of episodes, but I`m better now.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-28 21:26
Quote:
Thank you Gerry. I haven't read the 4 pages of comments, but personally, I love your perspective and agree with your optimism.
Thank you, Nightsky! I`m glad to feel the optimism. I was a little shaken for a couple of episodes, but I`m better now.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-03-01 00:06
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-03-01 00:06
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-01 03:18
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting Sharon:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.


Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.

Sam knows what it feels like to have Dean turn away.That is not really what I want Sam grappling with nor do I want a scenario where it is about Sam realizing something and then we get no futher forward with Dean.

Because then the situation in the brother's relationship remains the same .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-01 03:18
Quote:
Quote:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.
Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.
Sam knows what it feels like to have Dean turn away.That is not really what I want Sam grappling with nor do I want a scenario where it is about Sam realizing something and then we get no futher forward with Dean.

Because then the situation in the brother's relationship remains the same .
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2014-03-01 05:33
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2014-03-01 05:33
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-01 06:55
Quoting Manstrad:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.

If I may ask why was it creepy?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-01 06:55
Quote:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.
If I may ask why was it creepy?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-01 07:09
Gerry, this is in reply to issues you raised in your review. I don’t agree with a lot of what you said, so it’s not all glowing positivity. (Warning given). It can be moved or deleted, whatever administrators like.

Quote:
I think Berens used Kevin’s ability to forgive to point out the consequences of Gadreel’s possession were not all bad. Kevin died, but Cas and Charlie were saved.
This disturbs me. I find the whole idea that Sam has to acknowledge, be somehow grateful, or temper his response because some ‘good’ came out of being possessed ie Castiel and Charlie being alive. Now let’s put the aside the fact that when Sam used his powers to save countless people, including Castiel and Dean, but no-one, Dean included, was appreciative of, or even acknowledged, that. In fact, Sam was locked up, trust taken from him and outright condemned because of what he was willing to do in order to save people. Now, admittedly, the people Sam saved were mostly only strangers so they were not as important as, say, Charlie and Castiel but is Dean, or the show, going to be able to look back and say that Sam using his powers, and what he had to do to use those powers, was not all bad? Considering what Dean said in season 8, not likely. The only result that was considered important was what Dean thought of it, not the ‘not all bad’ that came out of his doing so.

Should a person be okay with their house being broken into because the insurance meant they could buy a new TV? Should they be okay with being assaulted if it drove them to go to the gym more? Should they be okay with being raped if they fell pregnant as a result, and they kept and loved the child? Should these ‘not all bad’ consequences mean they should feel less angry, disappointed, betrayed etc at the person who violated them, or more accepting of the act that led to that result or should the act be treated as what it was? There’s a reason why our judicial system punishes actions and not solely results, which is why Kevin not focusing on blame is moot. I mean, Kevin blames Gadreel, he wants him dead so on one hand he wants Sam and Dean to get over it but on the other they can’t because they need to get revenge for his death. There were three bodies involved in Kevin’s death; Sam, Dean and Gadreel, but Kevin is only apportioning blame to one who, like Dean, ‘did what he had to do’.

Thankfully, this is something the show hasn’t (yet) brought up. If it did then Sam and Dean (or Kevin) will have no reason to kill Gadreel because all of his actions were not all bad. (They’ll actually have no reason to kill anyone, because everyone has done good, everyone’s actions can be justified.) Or will the good that Gadreel did be deemed secondary to the fact that he broke Dean’s trust, the ultimate capital offense on the show?

The thing is, the ball is entirely in Dean’s court. He holds all the power, all the control in this situation and in the relationship. He can verbalise what he already knows in his gut all he wants, but he’s said that he’ll do it again so regardless of how Sam reacts, ultimately he has no choice but to live with it, because he has no control, and no say, over what Dean will do in relation to him. If Sam gets killed on a hunt, Dean has decided he can bring him back, regardless of the Sams wants or the consequences. If Sam leaves, if he ‘decides he doesn’t need to be a hero’, Dean still holds that power because if Sam gets killed crossing the road, Dean has decided that he has the right to bring him back, because that is what he does, that is who he is. This is the problem. Dean has no intention of them being equal in this regard because to do so would be to yield control (or trust) re Sam’s life over to Sam, and if Sam has control over that then he might do something that Dean can't accept. Dean can acknowledge he was wrong, and promise that he won’t do it again til the cows come home, but all it will take is his brother in danger, a quick possession or whatever and we’re back to square one. What can Sam do about it once he’s back? Nothing. Well, nothing except live with it.

That’s the other issue. Only one person really has to live with what Dean will do ‘for’ Sam, and that’s Sam. That was never epitomised better than in Road Trip when in the midst of all the needles in the brain, Dean walked away because he couldn’t ‘watch that any more’. I never wanted to be able to reach into a screen so much in my life because if I could then I would have grabbed Dean by the collar, dragged him back in front of his brother and told him ‘This is the consequence of your actions. What you can’t watch any more, others have to endure. What you can turn your back on to ignore, others have to live through. This is what you’re willing to do again, what you want other people to live with, and you can't even make yourself stand and watch it.'
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-01 07:09
Gerry, this is in reply to issues you raised in your review. I don’t agree with a lot of what you said, so it’s not all glowing positivity. (Warning given). It can be moved or deleted, whatever administrators like.

Quote:
I think Berens used Kevin’s ability to forgive to point out the consequences of Gadreel’s possession were not all bad. Kevin died, but Cas and Charlie were saved.
This disturbs me. I find the whole idea that Sam has to acknowledge, be somehow grateful, or temper his response because some ‘good’ came out of being possessed ie Castiel and Charlie being alive. Now let’s put the aside the fact that when Sam used his powers to save countless people, including Castiel and Dean, but no-one, Dean included, was appreciative of, or even acknowledged, that. In fact, Sam was locked up, trust taken from him and outright condemned because of what he was willing to do in order to save people. Now, admittedly, the people Sam saved were mostly only strangers so they were not as important as, say, Charlie and Castiel but is Dean, or the show, going to be able to look back and say that Sam using his powers, and what he had to do to use those powers, was not all bad? Considering what Dean said in season 8, not likely. The only result that was considered important was what Dean thought of it, not the ‘not all bad’ that came out of his doing so.

Should a person be okay with their house being broken into because the insurance meant they could buy a new TV? Should they be okay with being assaulted if it drove them to go to the gym more? Should they be okay with being raped if they fell pregnant as a result, and they kept and loved the child? Should these ‘not all bad’ consequences mean they should feel less angry, disappointed, betrayed etc at the person who violated them, or more accepting of the act that led to that result or should the act be treated as what it was? There’s a reason why our judicial system punishes actions and not solely results, which is why Kevin not focusing on blame is moot. I mean, Kevin blames Gadreel, he wants him dead so on one hand he wants Sam and Dean to get over it but on the other they can’t because they need to get revenge for his death. There were three bodies involved in Kevin’s death; Sam, Dean and Gadreel, but Kevin is only apportioning blame to one who, like Dean, ‘did what he had to do’.

Thankfully, this is something the show hasn’t (yet) brought up. If it did then Sam and Dean (or Kevin) will have no reason to kill Gadreel because all of his actions were not all bad. (They’ll actually have no reason to kill anyone, because everyone has done good, everyone’s actions can be justified.) Or will the good that Gadreel did be deemed secondary to the fact that he broke Dean’s trust, the ultimate capital offense on the show?

The thing is, the ball is entirely in Dean’s court. He holds all the power, all the control in this situation and in the relationship. He can verbalise what he already knows in his gut all he wants, but he’s said that he’ll do it again so regardless of how Sam reacts, ultimately he has no choice but to live with it, because he has no control, and no say, over what Dean will do in relation to him. If Sam gets killed on a hunt, Dean has decided he can bring him back, regardless of the Sams wants or the consequences. If Sam leaves, if he ‘decides he doesn’t need to be a hero’, Dean still holds that power because if Sam gets killed crossing the road, Dean has decided that he has the right to bring him back, because that is what he does, that is who he is. This is the problem. Dean has no intention of them being equal in this regard because to do so would be to yield control (or trust) re Sam’s life over to Sam, and if Sam has control over that then he might do something that Dean can't accept. Dean can acknowledge he was wrong, and promise that he won’t do it again til the cows come home, but all it will take is his brother in danger, a quick possession or whatever and we’re back to square one. What can Sam do about it once he’s back? Nothing. Well, nothing except live with it.

That’s the other issue. Only one person really has to live with what Dean will do ‘for’ Sam, and that’s Sam. That was never epitomised better than in Road Trip when in the midst of all the needles in the brain, Dean walked away because he couldn’t ‘watch that any more’. I never wanted to be able to reach into a screen so much in my life because if I could then I would have grabbed Dean by the collar, dragged him back in front of his brother and told him ‘This is the consequence of your actions. What you can’t watch any more, others have to endure. What you can turn your back on to ignore, others have to live through. This is what you’re willing to do again, what you want other people to live with, and you can't even make yourself stand and watch it.'
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-01 07:27
Quote:
Sam has been on a journey .......and therefore, his survival.
Sam is trying to find self-worth via having a say in his own life and it’s baffling Dean, who is seeing it as a betrayal. However, perhaps Sam can’t envision being comfortable as Sam Winchester, Man of Letter and Hunter, because no one, probably Sam included, has any idea of who Sam Winchester is because he’s never been given the opportunity to just be Sam Winchester. Perfect example, here you’ve decided that Sam is a hunter and an MOL, but what if he doesn’t want to fulfil the roles you’ve decided for him? Jeez, has Sam ever really had a choice but to be what others have decided that he be ie a hunter, a MoL, leader of the demon army, Lucifer’s vessel, a baby brother etc. Is Essentially, Sam has only even been good for whatever other have decided that he is. In Trial and Error, when Dean has died, then Sam can ‘get out’ and ‘have a life’, then Sam can decide to be whatever he wants to be. However, until then, Dean wants Sam with him, hunting. So, from where can Sam find his own self-worth? Is it Dean that is prohibiting him from doing so?

How can Sam be comfortable as a hunter, when he is bound by certain constraints that every other hunter isn’t? How can he be an equal when he can’t do the same as others, and be willing to make the same sacrifices etc as others? Under the current circumstances, as a hunter, Sam can’t do anything that will put him in danger of death (ie from hunting) because if he does, then the end result will be consequences to others. So Sam can’t have find self-worth as a hunter when being willing to accept the consequence of his decision is taken away from him.

Realistically, being a MoL is just as dangerous as being a hunter. So, if Sam wants to be an MoL (and it would be nice if he got the opportunity to be. However, we’ve frequently seen Kevin and Charlie be given the job of research over Sam. Though perhaps now that they’re dead/AWOL, Sam might get to fulfill that role) then he’s also re-evaluating his survival and deeming it less important than the survival of others.

Add to that, Sam has been invested in his own survival many times, but when he is it’s scoffed at, or seen as something to be critical of. When Sam says he wants safe or he wants normal, he’s reminded of his obligations, that others will die as a result of his wanting safe, that it’s a betrayal of ‘family’, he’s reminded of the importance of the survival of others.

You’ve said that ‘if Sam decides that he doesn’t need
to be a hero’, may I ask, do you think only hunters be heroes? If Sam decides he wants to be a doctor or a fireman or a maintenance man and help people that way, is that not heroic? If Sam decides to step back from a fight because the fight he’s embroiled in will only get more people hurt or killed then is Sam not a hero? (Don’t we constantly tell people to walk away from fights because it’s the right thing to do?) Gordon, Martin, Tim, Reggie, they were all trying to kill a monster, but are they considered heroic?

Quote:
I think he’ll also see ...Sam and Dean together do make a difference.
Nothing is guaranteed to be a good thing. Putting the angels back in heaven, killing Abbadon, killing Gadreel , killing monsters isn’t guaranteed to be a good thing, but they're still doing it.

Loving his brother is not the problem, how that love is demonstrated is. I love my nieces and nephews but if I kept them locked up so they wouldn’t get hurt, would it be a good way of showing it? Or beating up every bully in their immediate vicinity or standing on the sideline when they play match’s with a sniper rifle, taking down anyone who might dare to tackle them etc? In other words, should I decide that I know best what to do with their lives, despite not living their lives?

Dean isn’t Sam. They’re brothers but they are not alike. Does Dean have a clue who Sam is; bar being his baby brother? If you asked Dean what Sam’s favourite band or colour is would he know? If you asked him what type of girl he liked would he be able to tell you (well, something bar ‘Dead ones, ha ha!’) Fans are constantly saying that they don’t know Sam, but is this because Dean, our POV character, doesn’t know Sam? And if Dean doesn’t know Sam, how can he decide what is best for Sam?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-01 07:27
Quote:
Sam has been on a journey .......and therefore, his survival.
Sam is trying to find self-worth via having a say in his own life and it’s baffling Dean, who is seeing it as a betrayal. However, perhaps Sam can’t envision being comfortable as Sam Winchester, Man of Letter and Hunter, because no one, probably Sam included, has any idea of who Sam Winchester is because he’s never been given the opportunity to just be Sam Winchester. Perfect example, here you’ve decided that Sam is a hunter and an MOL, but what if he doesn’t want to fulfil the roles you’ve decided for him? Jeez, has Sam ever really had a choice but to be what others have decided that he be ie a hunter, a MoL, leader of the demon army, Lucifer’s vessel, a baby brother etc. Is Essentially, Sam has only even been good for whatever other have decided that he is. In Trial and Error, when Dean has died, then Sam can ‘get out’ and ‘have a life’, then Sam can decide to be whatever he wants to be. However, until then, Dean wants Sam with him, hunting. So, from where can Sam find his own self-worth? Is it Dean that is prohibiting him from doing so?

How can Sam be comfortable as a hunter, when he is bound by certain constraints that every other hunter isn’t? How can he be an equal when he can’t do the same as others, and be willing to make the same sacrifices etc as others? Under the current circumstances, as a hunter, Sam can’t do anything that will put him in danger of death (ie from hunting) because if he does, then the end result will be consequences to others. So Sam can’t have find self-worth as a hunter when being willing to accept the consequence of his decision is taken away from him.

Realistically, being a MoL is just as dangerous as being a hunter. So, if Sam wants to be an MoL (and it would be nice if he got the opportunity to be. However, we’ve frequently seen Kevin and Charlie be given the job of research over Sam. Though perhaps now that they’re dead/AWOL, Sam might get to fulfill that role) then he’s also re-evaluating his survival and deeming it less important than the survival of others.

Add to that, Sam has been invested in his own survival many times, but when he is it’s scoffed at, or seen as something to be critical of. When Sam says he wants safe or he wants normal, he’s reminded of his obligations, that others will die as a result of his wanting safe, that it’s a betrayal of ‘family’, he’s reminded of the importance of the survival of others.

You’ve said that ‘if Sam decides that he doesn’t need
to be a hero’, may I ask, do you think only hunters be heroes? If Sam decides he wants to be a doctor or a fireman or a maintenance man and help people that way, is that not heroic? If Sam decides to step back from a fight because the fight he’s embroiled in will only get more people hurt or killed then is Sam not a hero? (Don’t we constantly tell people to walk away from fights because it’s the right thing to do?) Gordon, Martin, Tim, Reggie, they were all trying to kill a monster, but are they considered heroic?

Quote:
I think he’ll also see ...Sam and Dean together do make a difference.
Nothing is guaranteed to be a good thing. Putting the angels back in heaven, killing Abbadon, killing Gadreel , killing monsters isn’t guaranteed to be a good thing, but they're still doing it.

Loving his brother is not the problem, how that love is demonstrated is. I love my nieces and nephews but if I kept them locked up so they wouldn’t get hurt, would it be a good way of showing it? Or beating up every bully in their immediate vicinity or standing on the sideline when they play match’s with a sniper rifle, taking down anyone who might dare to tackle them etc? In other words, should I decide that I know best what to do with their lives, despite not living their lives?

Dean isn’t Sam. They’re brothers but they are not alike. Does Dean have a clue who Sam is; bar being his baby brother? If you asked Dean what Sam’s favourite band or colour is would he know? If you asked him what type of girl he liked would he be able to tell you (well, something bar ‘Dead ones, ha ha!’) Fans are constantly saying that they don’t know Sam, but is this because Dean, our POV character, doesn’t know Sam? And if Dean doesn’t know Sam, how can he decide what is best for Sam?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-01 07:29
Love certainly gives the brothers power. However that power is not being positively used. It’s driven one brother to be so caught up in his brother’s opinion of him that he’s willing to die rather than ‘let him down again (and you could write a thesis arguing this whole 'letting him down’ thing). It’s driven the other brother to decide that he has autonomy over his brother’s body, regardless of the consequences and said brothers wants. Hypothetical situation, if Dean did manage to bust Sam out of the Cage, and out popped Lucifer and Michael to wreck the place, would we be extolling the power of 'love' or the need to be able to let go?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-01 07:29
Love certainly gives the brothers power. However that power is not being positively used. It’s driven one brother to be so caught up in his brother’s opinion of him that he’s willing to die rather than ‘let him down again (and you could write a thesis arguing this whole 'letting him down’ thing). It’s driven the other brother to decide that he has autonomy over his brother’s body, regardless of the consequences and said brothers wants. Hypothetical situation, if Dean did manage to bust Sam out of the Cage, and out popped Lucifer and Michael to wreck the place, would we be extolling the power of 'love' or the need to be able to let go?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 08:23
i have to disagree that sam is the one who's causing the distance. the distance between the boys is a result of dean's actions. i'd like to look at the eps chronologically and really ponder at what point it is sam who creates the distance.
sam doesn't find out the truth until the end of road trip. when he does, instead of dean facing sam and dealing with sam's feelings, he leaves him. he claims it's because he's poison, which sam obviously isn't buying, when the truth of the matter is he couldn't face his brother. he couldn't deal with his shame and his guilt, so he walked away.
first born has dean staying away.
sharp teeth has them reuniting, not because dean came back, but because they both ended up at the hospital when they found out about garth. it was noted that dean was gone for weeks. not a few days,but weeks. and if garth hadn't ended up in the hospital, who knows when and if dean would've come back to the bunker to face sam.
at the end of sharp teeth, dean realized just how much he missed sam and they both concluded that things are less crappy when they are together. dean just wanted to get in the car, put a few wins in their corner and go back to their normal routine. a routine which included sweeping everything under the rug. he still at this point didn't even offer sam an apology or even acknowledge sam's hurt and anger. he wanted sam to bury it. sam was obviously irritated at that. dean's words or lack there of indicated to sam that dean's focus is not on being brothers. sam told dean that he'd broken his trust. that they were damaged, but in no way did dean show sam he cared about that, dean just wanted to go back to hunting. the normal routine. that's what made sam say that line about being partners...but brothers. ( that's going to take work)
the next ep is the purge. sam saw dean had been up all night and he had hope that it was because of what he said in sharp teeth. that dean would work at fixing their brother relationship. but dean's pride got in the way. instead of talking to sam and dealing with stuff at that moment dean gave sam this snide remark of not breaking. looks like it's not going to be so easy to fix their relationship when only one of them is making the effort. but sam is making the effort. we saw that when he got into the car in sharp teeth. at the end of the purge, there is talking, but it doesn't exactly go as sam had hoped. dean doesn't acknowledge sam's anger and pain at all. he instead tells sam he did the right thing. he saved him. this of course frustrates sam, because dean is not seeing or admitting to what he did that was wrong. so sam questions dean's motivations, trying to point out that his actions had consequences that were harmful to others. sam made a comment that dean thinks he needs to be his savior as if sam loves him only because he saves him, only because he's his protector. again it goes back to dean's lack of trust in his brother. imo, what it comes down to if you look at it through sam's eyes, dean doesn't trust in sam's love. he doesnt trust sam's decisions because it they are not what dean wants, dean sees it as a betrayal. the truth is sam loves dean for dean, not because dean is his hero. not because they do the same job. not because they want the same things out of life. . and that's what dean doesn't seem to understand. dean's dream in wiawsb was his own skewed version of what him and sam's life would've been like if they didnt' hunt, stemming from his own issues. sam doesn't have the same pov. sam would love dean no matter what they did in life. he trusts in dean because he loves him.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 08:23
i have to disagree that sam is the one who's causing the distance. the distance between the boys is a result of dean's actions. i'd like to look at the eps chronologically and really ponder at what point it is sam who creates the distance.
sam doesn't find out the truth until the end of road trip. when he does, instead of dean facing sam and dealing with sam's feelings, he leaves him. he claims it's because he's poison, which sam obviously isn't buying, when the truth of the matter is he couldn't face his brother. he couldn't deal with his shame and his guilt, so he walked away.
first born has dean staying away.
sharp teeth has them reuniting, not because dean came back, but because they both ended up at the hospital when they found out about garth. it was noted that dean was gone for weeks. not a few days,but weeks. and if garth hadn't ended up in the hospital, who knows when and if dean would've come back to the bunker to face sam.
at the end of sharp teeth, dean realized just how much he missed sam and they both concluded that things are less crappy when they are together. dean just wanted to get in the car, put a few wins in their corner and go back to their normal routine. a routine which included sweeping everything under the rug. he still at this point didn't even offer sam an apology or even acknowledge sam's hurt and anger. he wanted sam to bury it. sam was obviously irritated at that. dean's words or lack there of indicated to sam that dean's focus is not on being brothers. sam told dean that he'd broken his trust. that they were damaged, but in no way did dean show sam he cared about that, dean just wanted to go back to hunting. the normal routine. that's what made sam say that line about being partners...but brothers. ( that's going to take work)
the next ep is the purge. sam saw dean had been up all night and he had hope that it was because of what he said in sharp teeth. that dean would work at fixing their brother relationship. but dean's pride got in the way. instead of talking to sam and dealing with stuff at that moment dean gave sam this snide remark of not breaking. looks like it's not going to be so easy to fix their relationship when only one of them is making the effort. but sam is making the effort. we saw that when he got into the car in sharp teeth. at the end of the purge, there is talking, but it doesn't exactly go as sam had hoped. dean doesn't acknowledge sam's anger and pain at all. he instead tells sam he did the right thing. he saved him. this of course frustrates sam, because dean is not seeing or admitting to what he did that was wrong. so sam questions dean's motivations, trying to point out that his actions had consequences that were harmful to others. sam made a comment that dean thinks he needs to be his savior as if sam loves him only because he saves him, only because he's his protector. again it goes back to dean's lack of trust in his brother. imo, what it comes down to if you look at it through sam's eyes, dean doesn't trust in sam's love. he doesnt trust sam's decisions because it they are not what dean wants, dean sees it as a betrayal. the truth is sam loves dean for dean, not because dean is his hero. not because they do the same job. not because they want the same things out of life. . and that's what dean doesn't seem to understand. dean's dream in wiawsb was his own skewed version of what him and sam's life would've been like if they didnt' hunt, stemming from his own issues. sam doesn't have the same pov. sam would love dean no matter what they did in life. he trusts in dean because he loves him.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 08:57
noting that i digress. i was making the point that sam isn't the one who's responsible for the distance. back to the purge. sam's frustration at dean had him questioning dean's motives, pointing out that dean feels it necessary to be his savior andhis action of saving him did more harm then good since the result of it was kevin's death. again dean couldn't see sam's pain, he instead told sam that he would do it all over again same way and that sam would do it too. but sam said no that. same circumstances, knowing the end result, he wouldn't do the same thing. sam wouldn't go against dean's wishes. he wouldn't do to dean the one thing that he abhored the most. that he'd rather die first. we know this because he's done so in the past. it was why dean ended up in hell. he forbade sam to go to extremes to save him. sam abided dean's wishes because he loves him. it killed sam. but he did it.
the next eppy is captives. again, there is no lack of love in this eppy. again, as in the purge, dean is in trouble and sam comes running. he's in full on kill mode at the very notion dean is in danger. that damn brotherly love keeps getting in the way. sam isn't all business though is he. his comment re: crowley not being into him was an attempt at levity and brother banter. sam is softening. let's not forget that he's come face to face with kevin. all his guilt just bubbling inside. then sam gets locked in a room with the mother of the boy he killed. he had to tell her he was dead. i can't imagine this was easy for sam. all his guilt and pain just resurfacing again.
kevin freeing sam of his guilt had to be emotionally overwhelming for him, his speech about what they had to let go, also didn't go over sam's head. he heard every word.and i have no doubt he meant his promise to kevin. but it's not that black and white as kevin sees it.
sam went to his room at the end of captives. he had a lot to process and sort through. but he hesitated and had a pained expression. there is so much conflict in this boy...has he really had time to reconcile what's happened to him? he knows his brother did what he did from love. but how he did it and the trauma sam is still going through from it...everyone thinks it's dean's who's all alone, but i think it's sam who is.
there is this assumption that sam walked away from dean. i don't think it was about dean. i think it was about sam and his need to just process everything that's just happened. there is this notion that sam didn't want to listen to dean, that dean was about to set things right. that feels like a far fetched assumption based on what we've gotten from dean so far and what was said by kevin at the end.
i still say kevin did more harm than good when it comes to dean. kevin's blase attitude just fuels dean's fire that what he did to sam was justified. kevin's ok with being dead, no harm no foul. this is helpful to dean how?
kevin has just unintentionally undermined everything sam is trying to accomplish with dean. i really doubt had sam stayed in the room long enough to realize that dean turned his head to talk, that dean wouldn't have owned up to what he did that was wrong when he saved sam. not after kevin just exonerated him. given that up to this point dean still hasn't even said he was sorry for the pain he caused sam, that he still hasn't even made the attempt yet to try to make things right, to gain his brother's trust back...i don't see how staying in the room would've done either brother a bit of good at that moment anyway.
just to note, back in s5...sam had apologized for what he'd done alot. not only that, but he also took responsibility for his actions at the end of good god y'all. when he realized that he could trust himself again in ftbyam, he called on dean. he wanted to make it work. he worked very hard to gain dean's trust back. as of now, dean has done nothing. he has made no attempt to try to fix things. all he's done so far is wallow in his guilt and shame.
as i said, two words from dean would at least give sam some indication that dean is trying to work at fixing what's broken. two words...
right now, where we stand, it's dean who's still creating the distance, not sam.
as of now, sam is the only one putting any effort into fixing things.

tim, i enjoy your posts and i find myself agreeing with most of your points.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 08:57
noting that i digress. i was making the point that sam isn't the one who's responsible for the distance. back to the purge. sam's frustration at dean had him questioning dean's motives, pointing out that dean feels it necessary to be his savior andhis action of saving him did more harm then good since the result of it was kevin's death. again dean couldn't see sam's pain, he instead told sam that he would do it all over again same way and that sam would do it too. but sam said no that. same circumstances, knowing the end result, he wouldn't do the same thing. sam wouldn't go against dean's wishes. he wouldn't do to dean the one thing that he abhored the most. that he'd rather die first. we know this because he's done so in the past. it was why dean ended up in hell. he forbade sam to go to extremes to save him. sam abided dean's wishes because he loves him. it killed sam. but he did it.
the next eppy is captives. again, there is no lack of love in this eppy. again, as in the purge, dean is in trouble and sam comes running. he's in full on kill mode at the very notion dean is in danger. that damn brotherly love keeps getting in the way. sam isn't all business though is he. his comment re: crowley not being into him was an attempt at levity and brother banter. sam is softening. let's not forget that he's come face to face with kevin. all his guilt just bubbling inside. then sam gets locked in a room with the mother of the boy he killed. he had to tell her he was dead. i can't imagine this was easy for sam. all his guilt and pain just resurfacing again.
kevin freeing sam of his guilt had to be emotionally overwhelming for him, his speech about what they had to let go, also didn't go over sam's head. he heard every word.and i have no doubt he meant his promise to kevin. but it's not that black and white as kevin sees it.
sam went to his room at the end of captives. he had a lot to process and sort through. but he hesitated and had a pained expression. there is so much conflict in this boy...has he really had time to reconcile what's happened to him? he knows his brother did what he did from love. but how he did it and the trauma sam is still going through from it...everyone thinks it's dean's who's all alone, but i think it's sam who is.
there is this assumption that sam walked away from dean. i don't think it was about dean. i think it was about sam and his need to just process everything that's just happened. there is this notion that sam didn't want to listen to dean, that dean was about to set things right. that feels like a far fetched assumption based on what we've gotten from dean so far and what was said by kevin at the end.
i still say kevin did more harm than good when it comes to dean. kevin's blase attitude just fuels dean's fire that what he did to sam was justified. kevin's ok with being dead, no harm no foul. this is helpful to dean how?
kevin has just unintentionally undermined everything sam is trying to accomplish with dean. i really doubt had sam stayed in the room long enough to realize that dean turned his head to talk, that dean wouldn't have owned up to what he did that was wrong when he saved sam. not after kevin just exonerated him. given that up to this point dean still hasn't even said he was sorry for the pain he caused sam, that he still hasn't even made the attempt yet to try to make things right, to gain his brother's trust back...i don't see how staying in the room would've done either brother a bit of good at that moment anyway.
just to note, back in s5...sam had apologized for what he'd done alot. not only that, but he also took responsibility for his actions at the end of good god y'all. when he realized that he could trust himself again in ftbyam, he called on dean. he wanted to make it work. he worked very hard to gain dean's trust back. as of now, dean has done nothing. he has made no attempt to try to fix things. all he's done so far is wallow in his guilt and shame.
as i said, two words from dean would at least give sam some indication that dean is trying to work at fixing what's broken. two words...
right now, where we stand, it's dean who's still creating the distance, not sam.
as of now, sam is the only one putting any effort into fixing things.

tim, i enjoy your posts and i find myself agreeing with most of your points.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 09:48
oh, and i know this isnt the right place...

but i would like to just take a moment to wish jensen a very happy birthday. here's hoping all his wishes come true.

and now back to our program....:D
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 09:48
oh, and i know this isnt the right place...

but i would like to just take a moment to wish jensen a very happy birthday. here's hoping all his wishes come true.

and now back to our program....:D
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 09:50
Thank you both Tim and nappi. I've been not commenting because I am really upset by the anger toward Sam and I'm afraid that if I comment I will say too much. I agree with both of your posts on Sam and am so glad that you do it in such a reasonable manner.

As to the idea that Sam SHOULD be happy being a MOL, I think that it overlooks what Sam has said he wants out of life. Yes, he likes using his brain. Yes he likes learning. But the thing he stated without qualification is that he wants to feel SAFE, and the MOL does not in any way meet that requirement. Since they have been introduces we have seen that almost the entire MOL was slaughtered back in the 1950s. That Dorothy had to save the world by trapping herself with a great evil for what she believed would be all eternity (gee that sounds like someone else we know, right?). That on of the MOL at the bunker that night was killed by the Wicked Witch. That Charlie was killed inside the bunker. That Sam himself was possessed by an angel when he was inside the bunker. That Kevin was killed inside the bunker. All the MOL bunker has shown is that even bookish people, who stay in a bunker warded against evil and who do not take on the risks that hunters do, still die or get possessed by a Knight of Hell simply by studying the supernatural. One of my biggest problems with how fandom views Sam (and this is not directed at you Gerry, I see it in many fans) is that they take Dean's word that all Sam wants is NORMAL and ignore Sam when he states that NO he doesn't want normal, he wants safe.

I am aware BTW, that Sam leaving the supernatural behind will make him safe. He could be followed or found by supernatural creatures. Heck he could be hit by a bus or killed in a mugging. The point is Sam will FEEL safe if he never has to deal with supernatural creatures again. It may not be true, but then not mentioning the titles of Macbeth doesn't ward off evil from every theater production. Saying break a leg doesn't mean an actor will do well on stage. A St. Christopher medal is not the determining factor on whether people are killed while driving. Taking off our shoes at airports and strip searches of elderly people in wheel chairs has not prevented on terrorist act. But people do all those things because it makes them feel better. So if Sam wants to hide under the covers and say Lalala about monsters and that makes him feel safe, that's his coping mechanism and he gets to do it to feel SAFE. Having Sam accept that he should be a MOL is still saying Sam should live the life Dean wants him to live (remaining a part of hunting), staying in what Dean calls home (Sam made it clear he didn't consider it that way), involved in a family business that has killed all of his family once, has killed Sam THREE times (AHBL, Wishful Thinking, and Swan Song) and never ever leaving Dean's side or being allowed to make independent decisions about his life or even how the job should be handled. Sam had to talk Dean into not killing the pishtaco who hadn't killed ANYONE and it was obvious that Dean was the one making the decision and if Sam didn't talk fast enough, bring enough examples or do everything in his power to talk Dean down, Dean was going to ignore Sam's it's not a good thing stance.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 09:50
Thank you both Tim and nappi. I've been not commenting because I am really upset by the anger toward Sam and I'm afraid that if I comment I will say too much. I agree with both of your posts on Sam and am so glad that you do it in such a reasonable manner.

As to the idea that Sam SHOULD be happy being a MOL, I think that it overlooks what Sam has said he wants out of life. Yes, he likes using his brain. Yes he likes learning. But the thing he stated without qualification is that he wants to feel SAFE, and the MOL does not in any way meet that requirement. Since they have been introduces we have seen that almost the entire MOL was slaughtered back in the 1950s. That Dorothy had to save the world by trapping herself with a great evil for what she believed would be all eternity (gee that sounds like someone else we know, right?). That on of the MOL at the bunker that night was killed by the Wicked Witch. That Charlie was killed inside the bunker. That Sam himself was possessed by an angel when he was inside the bunker. That Kevin was killed inside the bunker. All the MOL bunker has shown is that even bookish people, who stay in a bunker warded against evil and who do not take on the risks that hunters do, still die or get possessed by a Knight of Hell simply by studying the supernatural. One of my biggest problems with how fandom views Sam (and this is not directed at you Gerry, I see it in many fans) is that they take Dean's word that all Sam wants is NORMAL and ignore Sam when he states that NO he doesn't want normal, he wants safe.

I am aware BTW, that Sam leaving the supernatural behind will make him safe. He could be followed or found by supernatural creatures. Heck he could be hit by a bus or killed in a mugging. The point is Sam will FEEL safe if he never has to deal with supernatural creatures again. It may not be true, but then not mentioning the titles of Macbeth doesn't ward off evil from every theater production. Saying break a leg doesn't mean an actor will do well on stage. A St. Christopher medal is not the determining factor on whether people are killed while driving. Taking off our shoes at airports and strip searches of elderly people in wheel chairs has not prevented on terrorist act. But people do all those things because it makes them feel better. So if Sam wants to hide under the covers and say Lalala about monsters and that makes him feel safe, that's his coping mechanism and he gets to do it to feel SAFE. Having Sam accept that he should be a MOL is still saying Sam should live the life Dean wants him to live (remaining a part of hunting), staying in what Dean calls home (Sam made it clear he didn't consider it that way), involved in a family business that has killed all of his family once, has killed Sam THREE times (AHBL, Wishful Thinking, and Swan Song) and never ever leaving Dean's side or being allowed to make independent decisions about his life or even how the job should be handled. Sam had to talk Dean into not killing the pishtaco who hadn't killed ANYONE and it was obvious that Dean was the one making the decision and if Sam didn't talk fast enough, bring enough examples or do everything in his power to talk Dean down, Dean was going to ignore Sam's it's not a good thing stance.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 10:13
Quoting Manstrad:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.


As I have posted elsewhere, what Sam did in Faith is hardly "extreme measures" in my book. For one he had no idea that anyone would die in Dean's place and there is no indication that if he did know that he would have had Dean be healed and allowing another person to die. Yes, Sam tricked Sam to get Dean TO Roy, but he didn't drug Dean to get him into that tent. He didn't hypnotize Dean to get him to stay and ask to be healed. He brought Dean to Roy, encouraged Dean to give it a shot and then Dean chose to do it KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE. This was no trust me to cure you so say yes, oh guess what the yes wasn't to me, it was to the closest passing angel and now he owns your body.

The other reason I don't see Sam going to a faith healer is that I live in Akron, Ohio. We have Ernest Angley, a faith healer who oddly enough also owns the CW affiliate in the area. Every Mon-Friday and Suday at 9:00 he broadcasts his services and heals someone at some point during them. We had Rex Humbard build his church near Akron where he performed healings, until the SEC discovered he'd been doing illegal things that did not involve faith healing. Akron had both Kathryn Kuhlman and Oral Roberts show up in town (at separate times) to engage in a heal-off with Rev. Angley. Faith healing is a long standing American tradition. We have a Christian Science Reading Room, and they only use faith healing. Faith healing is not selling your soul or giving your brother over to an angel. It is an accepted process, that I don't personally believe in, but many people do and as such, I don't see trying to use a faith healer as going to extremes by Sam any more than Dean tracking down Emmanuel to save Sam in Born Again Identity was going to extremes to save Sam. Both of those involved using another way of saving one of the brothers when it was clear modern medicine was not going to work. And I have not heard one person anywhere criticize Dean for trying to find a faith healer in BAI even though he had to have known that saving Sam would probably kill another person.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 10:13
Quote:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.
As I have posted elsewhere, what Sam did in Faith is hardly "extreme measures" in my book. For one he had no idea that anyone would die in Dean's place and there is no indication that if he did know that he would have had Dean be healed and allowing another person to die. Yes, Sam tricked Sam to get Dean TO Roy, but he didn't drug Dean to get him into that tent. He didn't hypnotize Dean to get him to stay and ask to be healed. He brought Dean to Roy, encouraged Dean to give it a shot and then Dean chose to do it KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE. This was no trust me to cure you so say yes, oh guess what the yes wasn't to me, it was to the closest passing angel and now he owns your body.

The other reason I don't see Sam going to a faith healer is that I live in Akron, Ohio. We have Ernest Angley, a faith healer who oddly enough also owns the CW affiliate in the area. Every Mon-Friday and Suday at 9:00 he broadcasts his services and heals someone at some point during them. We had Rex Humbard build his church near Akron where he performed healings, until the SEC discovered he'd been doing illegal things that did not involve faith healing. Akron had both Kathryn Kuhlman and Oral Roberts show up in town (at separate times) to engage in a heal-off with Rev. Angley. Faith healing is a long standing American tradition. We have a Christian Science Reading Room, and they only use faith healing. Faith healing is not selling your soul or giving your brother over to an angel. It is an accepted process, that I don't personally believe in, but many people do and as such, I don't see trying to use a faith healer as going to extremes by Sam any more than Dean tracking down Emmanuel to save Sam in Born Again Identity was going to extremes to save Sam. Both of those involved using another way of saving one of the brothers when it was clear modern medicine was not going to work. And I have not heard one person anywhere criticize Dean for trying to find a faith healer in BAI even though he had to have known that saving Sam would probably kill another person.
Beanie
# Beanie 2014-03-01 10:15
Enjoyable read, Gerry.

But I had some issues with both the writer and the pacing of this episode. I enjoy supporting characters. I cried over the loss of Rufus and Kevin and Benny and Ellen, sobbed over saying good-bye to Bobby, waved gleefully after Charlie, never understood the introduction of 'hunter' Garth, wish we had more Sheriff Mills and Abaddon, miss Chuck and have prepared my heart to shatter (again) should we ever lose Cas or Crowley.

I guess my point is, I enjoy a story, being entertained, talking for a week about what's going to happen next in regards to plot, theme, story and moving the action forward. I want to be invested in the entire story being told and whether I like, dislike, or never want to see again, the other character(s) in the story, I didn't get that with this episode.

I guess the placing of this particular episode was necessary for the drama between the brother's but I was bored. Bart didn't hold my interest (I doubt I could pick the actor out of a line-up, that's how little attention I paid him) and the continuity of the flow between the angel scenes and the scenes with Mrs. Tran were abrupt and awkward. I had to rewind and search for the resolution to the third captive, but I failed to find one.

I do believe I'm one of the few who wants to see more Abbadon and Crowley and Metatron and Cain and the story that will give me that. And before I get going on what the synopsis appears to hint about with Crowley.......I say, until your next review, have a good day!
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 10:28
Quoting Manstrad:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.


Yes, I believe the show made a point for Dean and the audience to have Mrs. Trans words mirror Dean's actions. Mrs. Tran knows this could end badly but this is family and you take that chance.

I also think Kevins words to the brothers is what most of the audience wants to say to them. Your brothers, hunters have a short lifespan, get over it.

Would love for both of the Trans to be able to come back in some way.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 10:28
Quote:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.
Yes, I believe the show made a point for Dean and the audience to have Mrs. Trans words mirror Dean's actions. Mrs. Tran knows this could end badly but this is family and you take that chance.

I also think Kevins words to the brothers is what most of the audience wants to say to them. Your brothers, hunters have a short lifespan, get over it.

Would love for both of the Trans to be able to come back in some way.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 10:34
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting Sharon:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.


Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.


Very interesting scenario. Maybe Sam would learn to appreciate who his brother is and where he is coming from, but what would Dean learn about Sam? Maybe that Sam does love his brother and and wants to be around his brother not just his hunting partner.

Anyway you look at it this is definitely a roller coaster of a ride.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 10:34
Quote:
Quote:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.
Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.
Very interesting scenario. Maybe Sam would learn to appreciate who his brother is and where he is coming from, but what would Dean learn about Sam? Maybe that Sam does love his brother and and wants to be around his brother not just his hunting partner.

Anyway you look at it this is definitely a roller coaster of a ride.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 10:36
For those that are curious as to what happened to Jerome (victim #3) according to Robert Berens tweet there wasn't enough time to rescue him on screen (hmm...so why mention him?) so Sam and Dean rescued him off screen. To me the only blip in the episode, so I'll let it pass.
I'm not sure if this is what Gerry meant about Sam losing faith in Dean and having Dean turn away but I think this is the first time in the series that Sam has lost faith in Dean. He has been angry, has walked away, took a different path but never lost his faith in Dean. So Dean's response to turn away from Sam, not losing faith in Sam, but not knowing how to make things right and maybe feeling that he never can is new to Sam. So Sam may have to find it in himself somehow to forgive Dean to save him. And by that I don't mean apologize to Dean but forgive him after a serious discussion about autonomy. Maybe a continuation of the church scene in reverse. Crying and hugging involved.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 10:36
For those that are curious as to what happened to Jerome (victim #3) according to Robert Berens tweet there wasn't enough time to rescue him on screen (hmm...so why mention him?) so Sam and Dean rescued him off screen. To me the only blip in the episode, so I'll let it pass.
I'm not sure if this is what Gerry meant about Sam losing faith in Dean and having Dean turn away but I think this is the first time in the series that Sam has lost faith in Dean. He has been angry, has walked away, took a different path but never lost his faith in Dean. So Dean's response to turn away from Sam, not losing faith in Sam, but not knowing how to make things right and maybe feeling that he never can is new to Sam. So Sam may have to find it in himself somehow to forgive Dean to save him. And by that I don't mean apologize to Dean but forgive him after a serious discussion about autonomy. Maybe a continuation of the church scene in reverse. Crying and hugging involved.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 11:35
Quoting Bluepony:
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting Sharon:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.


Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.


Very interesting scenario. Maybe Sam would learn to appreciate who his brother is and where he is coming from, but what would Dean learn about Sam? Maybe that Sam does love his brother and and wants to be around his brother not just his hunting partner.

Anyway you look at it this is definitely a roller coaster of a ride.


The thing is I don't know how much more Sam can do to show Dean that he's with him because he wants to be, not because he has to be. In season one when Sam just wanted to go back to Jess and school, he told Dean he wanted to have him in his life. Later in season one when they thought they would take out the thing that killed mom and Jess and Sam told Dean he wanted to go back to his life he told Dean that he wanted to stay close and be brothers. In season four when he was using demon blood and believed he was a stronger better hunter than Dean, he STAYED with Dean. When he was soulless he wanted to hunt with Dean even though Bobby agreed that Sam was a better hunter than Dean at the time. The end of season six and most of season seven Sam was dependent on Dean, but even then he was willing to walk away and then came back and stayed with Dean. In season eight when he was completely clear that he doesn't want to hunt, he stayed with Dean and hunted even when being told that a vampire was "more of a brother than Sam had ever been" He gave up a chance to have a relationship with Amelia to stay with Dean and pursue Dean's desire to close Hell. Heck even this season after finding out about Gadreel, Sam is staying with Dean. He can't trust him to follow his wishes. He knows Dean has not given one good gosh darn about how he feels about being possessed and yet he stays with Dean. The angel war isn't their problem. Gadreel is gone. Sam could walk off and leave Dean, but no matter how angry he is he stays with Dean. And he does all this because he wants to be with Dean not because he needs Dean either as a hunter, or as an emotional support.

I think that Dean's issues are the exact opposite. Dean's fear of abandonment make him want Sam to NEED him over wanting to be with him. If Sam needs Dean, he can't leave because he needs Dean. If he just wants to be with Dean, he can change his mind find an Amelia or a Jess or a handyman's job. This doesn't make Dean bad or evil, but it makes him very unhealthy and it means he needs Sam to be unhealthy in order to feel safe.

Quoting cheryl42:

I'm not sure if this is what Gerry meant about Sam losing faith in Dean and having Dean turn away but I think this is the first time in the series that Sam has lost faith in Dean. He has been angry, has walked away, took a different path but never lost his faith in Dean. So Dean's response to turn away from Sam, not losing faith in Sam, but not knowing how to make things right and maybe feeling that he never can is new to Sam. So Sam may have to find it in himself somehow to forgive Dean to save him. And by that I don't mean apologize to Dean but forgive him after a serious discussion about autonomy. Maybe a continuation of the church scene in reverse. Crying and hugging involved.


I don't want Sam to forgive Dean unless Dean changes. Sam has the right to his feelings. Sam has the right to do what he wants with his own body, Sam has the right to make decisions Dean disagrees with. An apology from Dean would be a good start, but just having a talk about autonomy without any move from Dean to acknowledge that the way he saved Sam was wrong and without changing "Dean runs the show" is not enough for Sam to just forgive Dean even to save him. In fact saving Dean by letting him know that he can violate Sam's autonomy and Sam will forgive and forget just to save Dean only keeps the pattern going.

Look, I know I repeat this a lot, but Dean didn't come CLOSE to forgiving or trusting Sam until PONR in season five and he was a lot more brutal in what he said to Sam than Sam has been this season. Last season we found out that Dean STILL hasn't forgiven Sam for his mistakes in season four. So I'm not all that moved by the idea that Sam has to be the bigger man and tell Dean that no matter how much Dean runs roughshod over Sam, his life, his body and his mind, Sam will always love him and forgive him. Because if he does that why on earth should Dean change? Sam's said "go ahead put an angel in my body if you want. Gad needs to kill other angels and their vessels, sign me up Dean. I'm yours to use as you will. I'll get mad if you do, but don't worry give it three weeks and tell me you can't change and I'm unappreciative and it gave us a few in the W column, but you were right and you'll do it all over again and I'll just let it go." I just can't root for that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 11:35
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

Sam has lost faith in the brotherhood right now and in Dean it is not a question of whether Dean loses faith , he made a choice it was not ever going to be a free pass even he knew that.
Sam losing faith is different than Dean losing faith, though. Sam right now is the one creating the distance (and I do understand why). Having Dean not only accept the distance but actually turn away is a different dynamic again. If that happens, I think we`ll see Sam grappling with how that feels. Dean may end up being there in one way, but not another--much like Soulless Sam. I`m sure the MOC will play into the scenario.
Very interesting scenario. Maybe Sam would learn to appreciate who his brother is and where he is coming from, but what would Dean learn about Sam? Maybe that Sam does love his brother and and wants to be around his brother not just his hunting partner.

Anyway you look at it this is definitely a roller coaster of a ride.
The thing is I don't know how much more Sam can do to show Dean that he's with him because he wants to be, not because he has to be. In season one when Sam just wanted to go back to Jess and school, he told Dean he wanted to have him in his life. Later in season one when they thought they would take out the thing that killed mom and Jess and Sam told Dean he wanted to go back to his life he told Dean that he wanted to stay close and be brothers. In season four when he was using demon blood and believed he was a stronger better hunter than Dean, he STAYED with Dean. When he was soulless he wanted to hunt with Dean even though Bobby agreed that Sam was a better hunter than Dean at the time. The end of season six and most of season seven Sam was dependent on Dean, but even then he was willing to walk away and then came back and stayed with Dean. In season eight when he was completely clear that he doesn't want to hunt, he stayed with Dean and hunted even when being told that a vampire was "more of a brother than Sam had ever been" He gave up a chance to have a relationship with Amelia to stay with Dean and pursue Dean's desire to close Hell. Heck even this season after finding out about Gadreel, Sam is staying with Dean. He can't trust him to follow his wishes. He knows Dean has not given one good gosh darn about how he feels about being possessed and yet he stays with Dean. The angel war isn't their problem. Gadreel is gone. Sam could walk off and leave Dean, but no matter how angry he is he stays with Dean. And he does all this because he wants to be with Dean not because he needs Dean either as a hunter, or as an emotional support.

I think that Dean's issues are the exact opposite. Dean's fear of abandonment make him want Sam to NEED him over wanting to be with him. If Sam needs Dean, he can't leave because he needs Dean. If he just wants to be with Dean, he can change his mind find an Amelia or a Jess or a handyman's job. This doesn't make Dean bad or evil, but it makes him very unhealthy and it means he needs Sam to be unhealthy in order to feel safe.

Quote:

I'm not sure if this is what Gerry meant about Sam losing faith in Dean and having Dean turn away but I think this is the first time in the series that Sam has lost faith in Dean. He has been angry, has walked away, took a different path but never lost his faith in Dean. So Dean's response to turn away from Sam, not losing faith in Sam, but not knowing how to make things right and maybe feeling that he never can is new to Sam. So Sam may have to find it in himself somehow to forgive Dean to save him. And by that I don't mean apologize to Dean but forgive him after a serious discussion about autonomy. Maybe a continuation of the church scene in reverse. Crying and hugging involved.
I don't want Sam to forgive Dean unless Dean changes. Sam has the right to his feelings. Sam has the right to do what he wants with his own body, Sam has the right to make decisions Dean disagrees with. An apology from Dean would be a good start, but just having a talk about autonomy without any move from Dean to acknowledge that the way he saved Sam was wrong and without changing "Dean runs the show" is not enough for Sam to just forgive Dean even to save him. In fact saving Dean by letting him know that he can violate Sam's autonomy and Sam will forgive and forget just to save Dean only keeps the pattern going.

Look, I know I repeat this a lot, but Dean didn't come CLOSE to forgiving or trusting Sam until PONR in season five and he was a lot more brutal in what he said to Sam than Sam has been this season. Last season we found out that Dean STILL hasn't forgiven Sam for his mistakes in season four. So I'm not all that moved by the idea that Sam has to be the bigger man and tell Dean that no matter how much Dean runs roughshod over Sam, his life, his body and his mind, Sam will always love him and forgive him. Because if he does that why on earth should Dean change? Sam's said "go ahead put an angel in my body if you want. Gad needs to kill other angels and their vessels, sign me up Dean. I'm yours to use as you will. I'll get mad if you do, but don't worry give it three weeks and tell me you can't change and I'm unappreciative and it gave us a few in the W column, but you were right and you'll do it all over again and I'll just let it go." I just can't root for that.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-03-01 11:36
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:


Dean isn’t Sam. They’re brothers but they are not alike. Does Dean have a clue who Sam is; bar being his baby brother? If you asked Dean what Sam’s favourite band or colour is would he know? If you asked him what type of girl he liked would he be able to tell you (well, something bar ‘Dead ones, ha ha!’) Fans are constantly saying that they don’t know Sam, but is this because Dean, our POV character, doesn’t know Sam? And if Dean doesn’t know Sam, how can he decide what is best for Sam?


This is hitting the nail on the head, Tim. Dean really doesn't know Sam because he has never looked beyond what Sam has chosen to show the world. Dean clings to the belief that his brother is that guy from seasons 1-3 who wore his heart on his sleeve and wanted to talk things out when he was distressed or angry, (see Dean's comments about Sam being weird around women. Since when? Madison?) That guy died watching helplessly while his brother got ripped apart by hellhounds. The Sam who emerged is the one we see today, and Dean has never really tried to get to know him.

The few times Sam has been allowed by the writers to say what he is feeling, Dean's reaction is shock and surprise. What do mean that being fed demon blood made you feel unclean and unworthy? Wait, you mean that me bringing up every past transgression you've ever had made you feel like I didn't trust you?

We who are Sam's fans aren't shocked by it because we analyze and try to dig under the surface of what the show allows, but Dean isn't allowed that luxury.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-03-01 11:36
Quote:


Dean isn’t Sam. They’re brothers but they are not alike. Does Dean have a clue who Sam is; bar being his baby brother? If you asked Dean what Sam’s favourite band or colour is would he know? If you asked him what type of girl he liked would he be able to tell you (well, something bar ‘Dead ones, ha ha!’) Fans are constantly saying that they don’t know Sam, but is this because Dean, our POV character, doesn’t know Sam? And if Dean doesn’t know Sam, how can he decide what is best for Sam?
This is hitting the nail on the head, Tim. Dean really doesn't know Sam because he has never looked beyond what Sam has chosen to show the world. Dean clings to the belief that his brother is that guy from seasons 1-3 who wore his heart on his sleeve and wanted to talk things out when he was distressed or angry, (see Dean's comments about Sam being weird around women. Since when? Madison?) That guy died watching helplessly while his brother got ripped apart by hellhounds. The Sam who emerged is the one we see today, and Dean has never really tried to get to know him.

The few times Sam has been allowed by the writers to say what he is feeling, Dean's reaction is shock and surprise. What do mean that being fed demon blood made you feel unclean and unworthy? Wait, you mean that me bringing up every past transgression you've ever had made you feel like I didn't trust you?

We who are Sam's fans aren't shocked by it because we analyze and try to dig under the surface of what the show allows, but Dean isn't allowed that luxury.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 12:01
Percyowner I know what you are saying and I don't disagree. My point was that the only one who can forgive Dean is Sam. Dean screwed up, big time. I was just speculating that if it meant saving Dean's life Sam might have to forgive him. But as I said there would have to be a serious discussion where Dean understood what he did was wrong on every level.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 12:01
Percyowner I know what you are saying and I don't disagree. My point was that the only one who can forgive Dean is Sam. Dean screwed up, big time. I was just speculating that if it meant saving Dean's life Sam might have to forgive him. But as I said there would have to be a serious discussion where Dean understood what he did was wrong on every level.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 12:33
Percysowner, I am referring to the here and now, not seasons past. I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam. To me this is a clear exceptence that he was wrong about the possession. Yes, he said he would do it again but what does he mean by that? Everything that followed the possession or just the possession. In this area I believe they need to sit down and discuss this in detail to see what the other is saying. And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.

Secondly, I believe Sam cares about Dean because we saw that as soon as he heard Dean call for him he raced to find him. But this does not mean he understands who his brother is or where he is coming from. He stated they could either be hunting partners or brothers. Sam stated to stay together made it easier to hunt because they shared the crap. Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.

I know this sounds like I am against Sam and I'm not. Sam has been wronged and Dean needs to tell Sam I'm sorry. Not for just taking a piece of Sam but for lying to him and keeping him in the dark. I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.

Anyway, I may not agree with your interpretation of the brothers relationship but I enjoyed reading your post.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 12:33
Percysowner, I am referring to the here and now, not seasons past. I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam. To me this is a clear exceptence that he was wrong about the possession. Yes, he said he would do it again but what does he mean by that? Everything that followed the possession or just the possession. In this area I believe they need to sit down and discuss this in detail to see what the other is saying. And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.

Secondly, I believe Sam cares about Dean because we saw that as soon as he heard Dean call for him he raced to find him. But this does not mean he understands who his brother is or where he is coming from. He stated they could either be hunting partners or brothers. Sam stated to stay together made it easier to hunt because they shared the crap. Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.

I know this sounds like I am against Sam and I'm not. Sam has been wronged and Dean needs to tell Sam I'm sorry. Not for just taking a piece of Sam but for lying to him and keeping him in the dark. I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.

Anyway, I may not agree with your interpretation of the brothers relationship but I enjoyed reading your post.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-01 13:09
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-01 13:09
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-01 13:22
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-01 13:22
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 13:46
suebsg9 They are not exactly in different states. Dean knows where Sam's room is. He can knock on the door. But I don't think this is where the writers are going with this storyline. I have an awful scenario in my head how this is going to go. I can't decide if I hope I'm wrong or intrigued by how they are possibly going to pull it off Like I said I see a huge Crowely double cross coming. There was a reason he wanted Dean to get Sam involved in this whole Abbadon quest and I don't think it was for moral support. Apologies and forgiveness may be the least of the Winchester's problems.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 13:46
suebsg9 They are not exactly in different states. Dean knows where Sam's room is. He can knock on the door. But I don't think this is where the writers are going with this storyline. I have an awful scenario in my head how this is going to go. I can't decide if I hope I'm wrong or intrigued by how they are possibly going to pull it off Like I said I see a huge Crowely double cross coming. There was a reason he wanted Dean to get Sam involved in this whole Abbadon quest and I don't think it was for moral support. Apologies and forgiveness may be the least of the Winchester's problems.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-01 13:58
Quoting cheryl42:
suebsg9 They are not exactly in different states. Dean knows where Sam's room is. He can knock on the door. But I don't think this is where the writers are going with this storyline. I have an awful scenario in my head how this is going to go. I can't decide if I hope I'm wrong or intrigued by how they are possibly going to pull it off Like I said I see a huge Crowely double cross coming. There was a reason he wanted Dean to get Sam involved in this whole Abbadon quest and I don't think it was for moral support. Apologies and forgiveness may be the least of the Winchester's problems.


Well Crowley was not the only one who suggested help so I don't think I can see Dean killing Sam. But what scenario do you have going in your head??
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-01 13:58
Quote:
suebsg9 They are not exactly in different states. Dean knows where Sam's room is. He can knock on the door. But I don't think this is where the writers are going with this storyline. I have an awful scenario in my head how this is going to go. I can't decide if I hope I'm wrong or intrigued by how they are possibly going to pull it off Like I said I see a huge Crowely double cross coming. There was a reason he wanted Dean to get Sam involved in this whole Abbadon quest and I don't think it was for moral support. Apologies and forgiveness may be the least of the Winchester's problems.
Well Crowley was not the only one who suggested help so I don't think I can see Dean killing Sam. But what scenario do you have going in your head??
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 14:04
Cas suggesting that Sam call Dean is coming from a good place. I don't think that Crowley has the same intentions. I really don't want to speculate too much on my own head fanfic so I will watch with baited breath. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-01 14:04
Cas suggesting that Sam call Dean is coming from a good place. I don't think that Crowley has the same intentions. I really don't want to speculate too much on my own head fanfic so I will watch with baited breath. :-)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-01 14:24
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
He had the chance and squandered it ,he simply said he would do it again.I don't think Dean even knows the wrong he has commited.
Dean can apologize to Kevin but not to Sam? I don't understand ,maybe because Kevin is dead.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-01 14:24
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
He had the chance and squandered it ,he simply said he would do it again.I don't think Dean even knows the wrong he has commited.
Dean can apologize to Kevin but not to Sam? I don't understand ,maybe because Kevin is dead.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 14:24
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
I think nappi's post above covered this very well, but I will reiterate her points. In Road Trip when Sam finds out what Dean has done and ejected Gadreel, Dean does not apologize. He refuses to listen to how Sam feels and walks away. He doesn't even start by saying he's sorry he did something that he knew Sam wouldn't want. When Sam brings up Kevin Dean ORDERS Sam to not feel guilty (that's Dean's privilege). He doesn't say he's sorry Sam can remember killing Kevin. He walks away with his I'm poison speech.

In Sharp Teeth Dean lies to Sam to try and get him out of town, Dean wants to work this case and By God, he's not going to let Sam anywhere near it. He again doesn't apologize for what he did. Sam sticks around and they have the talk at the end where Sam they both agree working together makes working less crappy. Sam makes an ambiguous statement that indicates he's not sure about being Dean's brother in an emotional sense. Again, not once do the words I apologize for going against what I knew you would want come out of Dean's mouth. Only putting wins in the column and putting things behind them.

In The Purge Sam notes that Dean isn't sleeping and asks him if that is due to what Sam told him. He's giving Dean an opening here. Dean talks about not breaking that easily (translation: you're not THAT important, don't get the idea that you are). Again this was a chance for Dean to start to apologize. At the end of the episode Dean does respond to Sam's earlier remark about being bothered about the situation AGAIN he DOESN'T apologize. He flat out states the well we'll go to the transcript so I don't get accused of misquoting

DEAN [softly]
You know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church... And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it's the right thing. I'd do it again.

SAM

And that... is the problem. You think you're my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad... But you're not.

[DEAN's blank eyes stare at him]

I mean, Kevin's dead, Crowley's in the wind. We're no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?


They then go onto Dean saying Sam would do the same thing and Sam saying he wouldn't. AGAIN Dean will not apologize. In fact, he's still maintaining that he did the right thing. Sam makes a statement that would scare the heck out of me, that he doesn't see any upside in BEING ALIVE, but Dean is too wrapped up in being seen as right that it flies right past him. Sam started the trials to keep Dean off a suicidal path because he wasn't suicidal and believed, therefore, that he was more likely to come out alive at the other end. Sam has just expressed that he is depressed enough to not wan to be alive and Dean could not care less. He just doesn't want to apologize or admit he did anything wrong.

Some people have noted that Dean does not want to say he's sorry Sam is alive because he isn't. I have worked really hard to word this to show that Dean doesn't have to say he's sorry Sam is alive. He can say he will never be sorry that Sam is alive, but he realizes he was wrong to take away Sam's agency. He can say "I apologize for saving you in a way that I knew you wouldn't want. I apologize for letting a dangerous psycho angel inside of you and I'm deeply sorry that you seeing yourself kill Kevin was part of the fallout".

The fact is that Sam has NOT walked away every time Dean has tried to talk. Dean walked away and intended to keep away to avoid apologizing. Sam broached the topic at least twice and Dean failed to apologize. Kevin's words were pretty clear that they should get over it, as if both were at fault. And for the record, Sam didn't grab one of the pretty cars or the Impala and leave the Bunker. He walked to his room. Nothing, nothing was stopping Dean from following and saying we have to talk. Let me start by apologizing.

DEAN did a bad thing. He did a bad, bad thing and Sam was in NO WAY responsible for Dean's actions. When someone is in a relationship, and they do a bad thing, they get to do the work to fix the relationship, if they want to fix the relationship. They get to feel uncomfortable. They get to take responsibility for what they did. They get to listen to how hurt their partner is. Dean wants to put a few in the W column and move on without any pain. Dean may not see that he did anything wrong. Or he may not be capable of admitting it. But Sam has given him the openings to start a reconciliation and Dean has turned down every one. Until Dean starts a sentence with "I apologize" I don't think Sam owe him anything.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 14:24
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
I think nappi's post above covered this very well, but I will reiterate her points. In Road Trip when Sam finds out what Dean has done and ejected Gadreel, Dean does not apologize. He refuses to listen to how Sam feels and walks away. He doesn't even start by saying he's sorry he did something that he knew Sam wouldn't want. When Sam brings up Kevin Dean ORDERS Sam to not feel guilty (that's Dean's privilege). He doesn't say he's sorry Sam can remember killing Kevin. He walks away with his I'm poison speech.

In Sharp Teeth Dean lies to Sam to try and get him out of town, Dean wants to work this case and By God, he's not going to let Sam anywhere near it. He again doesn't apologize for what he did. Sam sticks around and they have the talk at the end where Sam they both agree working together makes working less crappy. Sam makes an ambiguous statement that indicates he's not sure about being Dean's brother in an emotional sense. Again, not once do the words I apologize for going against what I knew you would want come out of Dean's mouth. Only putting wins in the column and putting things behind them.

In The Purge Sam notes that Dean isn't sleeping and asks him if that is due to what Sam told him. He's giving Dean an opening here. Dean talks about not breaking that easily (translation: you're not THAT important, don't get the idea that you are). Again this was a chance for Dean to start to apologize. At the end of the episode Dean does respond to Sam's earlier remark about being bothered about the situation AGAIN he DOESN'T apologize. He flat out states the well we'll go to the transcript so I don't get accused of misquoting

DEAN [softly]
You know, Sam, I saved your hide back there. And I saved your hide at that church... And the hospital. I may not think things all the way through. Okay? But what I do, I do because it's the right thing. I'd do it again.

SAM

And that... is the problem. You think you're my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad... But you're not.

[DEAN's blank eyes stare at him]

I mean, Kevin's dead, Crowley's in the wind. We're no closer to beating this angel thing. Please tell me, what is the upside of me being alive?


They then go onto Dean saying Sam would do the same thing and Sam saying he wouldn't. AGAIN Dean will not apologize. In fact, he's still maintaining that he did the right thing. Sam makes a statement that would scare the heck out of me, that he doesn't see any upside in BEING ALIVE, but Dean is too wrapped up in being seen as right that it flies right past him. Sam started the trials to keep Dean off a suicidal path because he wasn't suicidal and believed, therefore, that he was more likely to come out alive at the other end. Sam has just expressed that he is depressed enough to not wan to be alive and Dean could not care less. He just doesn't want to apologize or admit he did anything wrong.

Some people have noted that Dean does not want to say he's sorry Sam is alive because he isn't. I have worked really hard to word this to show that Dean doesn't have to say he's sorry Sam is alive. He can say he will never be sorry that Sam is alive, but he realizes he was wrong to take away Sam's agency. He can say "I apologize for saving you in a way that I knew you wouldn't want. I apologize for letting a dangerous psycho angel inside of you and I'm deeply sorry that you seeing yourself kill Kevin was part of the fallout".

The fact is that Sam has NOT walked away every time Dean has tried to talk. Dean walked away and intended to keep away to avoid apologizing. Sam broached the topic at least twice and Dean failed to apologize. Kevin's words were pretty clear that they should get over it, as if both were at fault. And for the record, Sam didn't grab one of the pretty cars or the Impala and leave the Bunker. He walked to his room. Nothing, nothing was stopping Dean from following and saying we have to talk. Let me start by apologizing.

DEAN did a bad thing. He did a bad, bad thing and Sam was in NO WAY responsible for Dean's actions. When someone is in a relationship, and they do a bad thing, they get to do the work to fix the relationship, if they want to fix the relationship. They get to feel uncomfortable. They get to take responsibility for what they did. They get to listen to how hurt their partner is. Dean wants to put a few in the W column and move on without any pain. Dean may not see that he did anything wrong. Or he may not be capable of admitting it. But Sam has given him the openings to start a reconciliation and Dean has turned down every one. Until Dean starts a sentence with "I apologize" I don't think Sam owe him anything.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 14:36
re: quote #84
i have to disagree respectfully.
by your own admission you stated that you are referring to the here and now as it stands for dean's actions. but when it comes to sam you make it clear that sam's comment about dean doing more harm than good is sam's overall opinion of his brother. you are saying that sam is referring to everything dean has ever done, instead of sam referring to what dean has just done. sam told dean he thinks he has to be his savior, referring to dean saving him now. he said he thought he was doing right even though he was doing more harm than good. which as i took it, sam was telling him you think you did right in how you saved me, but in the end it did more harm than good as kevin is now dead because of it.
see what i'm saying. when it's dean, it's the here and now, but when it's sam, sam is referring to a lifetime. i find that outlook quite unfair to sam's character and if it were vice versa, i'd find it unfair to dean's as well.
as you have stated above dean is aware that he has taken a piece of sam. i think based on his comments to zeke in the hospital, he knew going in what he was going to end up doing to his brother, b lot of sam supporters are trying to say is that even with dean's prior knowledge of what this would do to his brother, he still hasn't told sam he was sorry. as i said, i don't expect dean to apologize for saving sam. i don't think sam expects that either. i believe what sam needs to hear from dean is that he's sorry for how he saved him and what it did to him. how can sam forgive dean if he doesn't give sam any indication that he is sorry for the pain that he caused . like i said, all sam needs, all sam supporters need from dean are two words....i'm sorry.
i also have to disagree that sam telling dean they will work as partners is an indication that sam is just with dean because they work well together. sam's comment about being partners came after dean told sam that they just need to put a couple of wins on the scoreboard. they need to just go back to their normal working routine. dean wanted to go back to the work routine. sam said ok, you want to be partners, we'll be partners, but if you want to be brothers..the way sam sees it, dean wants to work as partners, but he didn't really indicate his interest in working on fixing what sam told dean was broken/damaged. sam's comment opened the door to sam wanting to fix what was broken as did him getting into the impala without any hesitation. it's up to dean now. sam asked dean in the purge if him not sleeping was because of what he said. sam just gave dean another opening, but dean shut the door on sam by telling him he didn't break. the very fact that dean knows sam is trying to break him, but would rather be prideful and stand his ground than concede tells me that either dean isn't sorry for causing sam pain, which i don't believe, or he just hasn't the courage/ability to face it. cuz like i said, once that dam is opened, once they start talking, once dean's protective dam breaks, he's going to have to face himself and why it is he needs to be sam's hero. sam doesn't need dean to be his hero, he needs him to be his brother.
i don't think that i can agree that sam is going about this the wrong way because and yes we have to look to the past, because sam has told dean in the past to treat him like a grown man. he has told dean in the past to stop giving a crap about him and start giving a crap about himself. hell the entire confession from sam in sacrifice about how sam has been nothing but a disappointment to dean
(what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again, who are you going to turn to next time instead of me? another angel? another, another vampire?) in that church sam was practically begging for dean's trust, and when dean told sam nobody came before him, sam really thought dean meant he trusted sam more than anyone. now sam's back to believing dean didn't really mean what he said in the church. sam telling dean what the problem is has never worked. dean has to understand for himself. but it's not like sam aint leaving him a trail of m&m's.
to be honest, sam can coddle dean to death and make like nothing is wrong, but dean will always know the truth. as you stated, he'll always know that he took a piece of his brother away. and he'll always feel guilty about that. it's worse if sam doesn't show anger. sam just forgiving and forgetting would only make dean feel worse in the end and that would really lead dean down the road to self destruction.
sam is doing right by dean. he's the only one who is

sorry percy, i posted mine before i saw yours...looks like it reiterated most of what you said.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 14:36
re: quote #84
i have to disagree respectfully.
by your own admission you stated that you are referring to the here and now as it stands for dean's actions. but when it comes to sam you make it clear that sam's comment about dean doing more harm than good is sam's overall opinion of his brother. you are saying that sam is referring to everything dean has ever done, instead of sam referring to what dean has just done. sam told dean he thinks he has to be his savior, referring to dean saving him now. he said he thought he was doing right even though he was doing more harm than good. which as i took it, sam was telling him you think you did right in how you saved me, but in the end it did more harm than good as kevin is now dead because of it.
see what i'm saying. when it's dean, it's the here and now, but when it's sam, sam is referring to a lifetime. i find that outlook quite unfair to sam's character and if it were vice versa, i'd find it unfair to dean's as well.
as you have stated above dean is aware that he has taken a piece of sam. i think based on his comments to zeke in the hospital, he knew going in what he was going to end up doing to his brother, b lot of sam supporters are trying to say is that even with dean's prior knowledge of what this would do to his brother, he still hasn't told sam he was sorry. as i said, i don't expect dean to apologize for saving sam. i don't think sam expects that either. i believe what sam needs to hear from dean is that he's sorry for how he saved him and what it did to him. how can sam forgive dean if he doesn't give sam any indication that he is sorry for the pain that he caused . like i said, all sam needs, all sam supporters need from dean are two words....i'm sorry.
i also have to disagree that sam telling dean they will work as partners is an indication that sam is just with dean because they work well together. sam's comment about being partners came after dean told sam that they just need to put a couple of wins on the scoreboard. they need to just go back to their normal working routine. dean wanted to go back to the work routine. sam said ok, you want to be partners, we'll be partners, but if you want to be brothers..the way sam sees it, dean wants to work as partners, but he didn't really indicate his interest in working on fixing what sam told dean was broken/damaged. sam's comment opened the door to sam wanting to fix what was broken as did him getting into the impala without any hesitation. it's up to dean now. sam asked dean in the purge if him not sleeping was because of what he said. sam just gave dean another opening, but dean shut the door on sam by telling him he didn't break. the very fact that dean knows sam is trying to break him, but would rather be prideful and stand his ground than concede tells me that either dean isn't sorry for causing sam pain, which i don't believe, or he just hasn't the courage/ability to face it. cuz like i said, once that dam is opened, once they start talking, once dean's protective dam breaks, he's going to have to face himself and why it is he needs to be sam's hero. sam doesn't need dean to be his hero, he needs him to be his brother.
i don't think that i can agree that sam is going about this the wrong way because and yes we have to look to the past, because sam has told dean in the past to treat him like a grown man. he has told dean in the past to stop giving a crap about him and start giving a crap about himself. hell the entire confession from sam in sacrifice about how sam has been nothing but a disappointment to dean
(what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again, who are you going to turn to next time instead of me? another angel? another, another vampire?) in that church sam was practically begging for dean's trust, and when dean told sam nobody came before him, sam really thought dean meant he trusted sam more than anyone. now sam's back to believing dean didn't really mean what he said in the church. sam telling dean what the problem is has never worked. dean has to understand for himself. but it's not like sam aint leaving him a trail of m&m's.
to be honest, sam can coddle dean to death and make like nothing is wrong, but dean will always know the truth. as you stated, he'll always know that he took a piece of his brother away. and he'll always feel guilty about that. it's worse if sam doesn't show anger. sam just forgiving and forgetting would only make dean feel worse in the end and that would really lead dean down the road to self destruction.
sam is doing right by dean. he's the only one who is

sorry percy, i posted mine before i saw yours...looks like it reiterated most of what you said.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 14:42
Quoting JuliaG:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.


I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 14:42
Quote:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.
I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-01 14:59
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting JuliaG:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.


I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.


Good points thank you always glad when someone else can put something I am trying to say but am not the writers like others are and can never get the wording correctly so thanks Gerry.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-01 14:59
Quote:
Quote:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.
I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.
Good points thank you always glad when someone else can put something I am trying to say but am not the writers like others are and can never get the wording correctly so thanks Gerry.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 15:02
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting anonymousN:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
i'm afraid i don't buy sam as the reason for dean not apologizing. how can dean apologize if sam doesn't give him a chance? if he doesn't stay in the same room?
sam and dean have been working side by side since sharp teeth. they were in the hospital having a chat and dean couldn't tell sam he was sorry then? or when sam and dean are together driving in the car on their way to a case, dean can't say i'm sorry? the car is moving, is sam jumping out? or how about sam and dean sitting side by side in the woods in captives...inst ead of dean calling for crowley, maybe he could've mentioned how sorry he was for the pain he caused sam.
no, i'm sorry, but dean's lack of apology has nothing to do with sam and everything to do with dean.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 15:02
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know how it could be interpreted that Dean doesn't give a good gosh darn about Sam and the possession when he stated he knew he had taken a piece of Sam.
Because Dean has not taken time to apologize to Sam.Quote:
And Sam needs to stay focused on this issue and not cloud it with everything Dean has ever done is wrong and for the wrong reasons. Because this as far from the truth and issue at hand as we can get.
Quote:
I just think Sam is going about this the wrong way and it is going to backfire on him when his brother closes himself off to him as a brother and abids by hunting partners only.
Quote:
Not an indication he wants to be with Dean except that they work well together.
Sam does not need to do anything unless Dean apologizes to him.Dean has and I repeat has to take the first step by apologizing to Sam.If not that will be confirmation that Dean does not understand the betrayal about having sam possessed.
Bluepony, what Dean had done to Sam was horrible,there is no other word for it.If he cannot even muster an apology, professional relationship with sam is the only one he deserves.
Dean does need to do the apologizing we get that and start it but how is he supposed to really do that if Sam doesn't even stay in the same room with him? I keep seeing everyone say that but Sam needs to give Dean the chance to apologize but right now he does not seem ready to and I think the longer that Sam does not give Dean a chance to apologize he is going to keep pushing dean further away. So that apology he might be waiting for maybe coming and someone not sure this site or another noticed the number on sam's room and it was either 22 or 23 so is that how long it will take to clear the air??
i'm afraid i don't buy sam as the reason for dean not apologizing. how can dean apologize if sam doesn't give him a chance? if he doesn't stay in the same room?
sam and dean have been working side by side since sharp teeth. they were in the hospital having a chat and dean couldn't tell sam he was sorry then? or when sam and dean are together driving in the car on their way to a case, dean can't say i'm sorry? the car is moving, is sam jumping out? or how about sam and dean sitting side by side in the woods in captives...inst ead of dean calling for crowley, maybe he could've mentioned how sorry he was for the pain he caused sam.
no, i'm sorry, but dean's lack of apology has nothing to do with sam and everything to do with dean.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 15:30
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
Love certainly gives the brothers power. However that power is not being positively used. It’s driven one brother to be so caught up in his brother’s opinion of him that he’s willing to die rather than ‘let him down again (and you could write a thesis arguing this whole 'letting him down’ thing). It’s driven the other brother to decide that he has autonomy over his brother’s body, regardless of the consequences and said brothers wants. Hypothetical situation, if Dean did manage to bust Sam out of the Cage, and out popped Lucifer and Michael to wreck the place, would we be extolling the power of 'love' or the need to be able to let go?


Hi Tim, I`m always glad to hear your perspective! And I expect my reviews to get a variety of responses. We all bring our own experiences to the story. I have some responses to your responses, to continue the discussion.

I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen. Sam asked Dean, "What`s the upside of me being alive?" Besides what Dean thinks is the obvious -- Sam being alive -- there are a few marks in the positive column.

I think Sam was led into the increasingly problematic use of his powers in season 4 because he did understand sometimes good things can be mixed into bad things. I think Castiel`s stealing grace shows the same thing.

But Sam`s power was based on ingesting something that was poisoning his soul and turning him into something he didn`t want to be. I don`t think he`s going to end up deciding Dean`s love is that same kind of poison, just as I also think Dean is going to realize he needed to be truthful with Sam, even if that meant losing him.

I don`t have the same read of Sam`s decisions on how to live his life, either. Sam could have decided to stay with Amelia. Dean told him maybe one of them should be happy and what was important was for him to decide, because one foot in either camp would get him killed. Sam decided to stay. He didn`t make it clear whether it was a sense of duty because he owed it to Kevin or because he felt hunting with Dean was where he belonged, but he did make his own decision, whatever it was.

I agree with you that Dean`s part of this scenario is understanding he has to be willing to let Sam die if Sam chooses. But I don`t agree that Sam has been hamstrung from being an effective hunter. Dean has never tried to wrap Sam in cotton wool, stopping him from taking risks. Both of them take risks to do their jobs all the time. And they are effective.

When Sam needed to jump in the pit with Lucifer, Dean helped him to do so. He didn`t view shutting the gates as requiring that level of sacrifice from Sam, because they had no real idea of what the consequences of shutting them would be. They were bent on payback, not a clear understanding of what the impact would be on the cosmic balance. Dean didn`t think payback was worth Sam`s life. I guess we`ll see where Sam ends up on the issue. The writers did have Cas tell Sam his life was worth saving and he didn`t have any need to atone, so I think this point is still in story play.

On the point of what is a hero, I`m using the term in the way this story frames it, which is being on the cosmic stage dealing with the fate of the world. Yes, every day people can be and are heroes, but in this story, they are part of normal life in a way the Winchesters are not. So Sam`s choice to walk away from hunting would be toward normal and safe. And if he does that, he walks right out of the story, which I don`t want.

I think Sam, like Dean and Cas, has been chosen for life on the cosmic stage. Cas just chose to remain an angel to fight the good fight, Dean chose to return to hunting after Lisa and I think that`s because, in Lord of the Ring terms, they are ring bearers and do not have the option to garden in Hobbiton. They have been changed and marked by the life they`ve led. I think Sam has carried the ring longer than anyone else and his arc is to accept himself, rather than try to be someone else. I think that`s why he`s getting feedback that his life is valuable and worth protecting and he doesn`t need to atone for anything. That`s just my read, though, and I may be wrong on where his arc is going.

I guess the last thing is, I think Dean knows Sam very well. He`d know his favourite colour and his favourite shirt. Dean could track Sam down in season four when Sam was trying his best to hide his tracks. He brought Sam up, made his dinners, got him to school, tucked him in at night. Dean`s decision to go with Gadreel`s plan wasn`t because he has no idea who his brother is, it was because he hasn`t experienced possession the way Sam has. And I agree with you, that is going to be a place of learning for Dean.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 15:30
Quote:
Love certainly gives the brothers power. However that power is not being positively used. It’s driven one brother to be so caught up in his brother’s opinion of him that he’s willing to die rather than ‘let him down again (and you could write a thesis arguing this whole 'letting him down’ thing). It’s driven the other brother to decide that he has autonomy over his brother’s body, regardless of the consequences and said brothers wants. Hypothetical situation, if Dean did manage to bust Sam out of the Cage, and out popped Lucifer and Michael to wreck the place, would we be extolling the power of 'love' or the need to be able to let go?
Hi Tim, I`m always glad to hear your perspective! And I expect my reviews to get a variety of responses. We all bring our own experiences to the story. I have some responses to your responses, to continue the discussion.

I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen. Sam asked Dean, "What`s the upside of me being alive?" Besides what Dean thinks is the obvious -- Sam being alive -- there are a few marks in the positive column.

I think Sam was led into the increasingly problematic use of his powers in season 4 because he did understand sometimes good things can be mixed into bad things. I think Castiel`s stealing grace shows the same thing.

But Sam`s power was based on ingesting something that was poisoning his soul and turning him into something he didn`t want to be. I don`t think he`s going to end up deciding Dean`s love is that same kind of poison, just as I also think Dean is going to realize he needed to be truthful with Sam, even if that meant losing him.

I don`t have the same read of Sam`s decisions on how to live his life, either. Sam could have decided to stay with Amelia. Dean told him maybe one of them should be happy and what was important was for him to decide, because one foot in either camp would get him killed. Sam decided to stay. He didn`t make it clear whether it was a sense of duty because he owed it to Kevin or because he felt hunting with Dean was where he belonged, but he did make his own decision, whatever it was.

I agree with you that Dean`s part of this scenario is understanding he has to be willing to let Sam die if Sam chooses. But I don`t agree that Sam has been hamstrung from being an effective hunter. Dean has never tried to wrap Sam in cotton wool, stopping him from taking risks. Both of them take risks to do their jobs all the time. And they are effective.

When Sam needed to jump in the pit with Lucifer, Dean helped him to do so. He didn`t view shutting the gates as requiring that level of sacrifice from Sam, because they had no real idea of what the consequences of shutting them would be. They were bent on payback, not a clear understanding of what the impact would be on the cosmic balance. Dean didn`t think payback was worth Sam`s life. I guess we`ll see where Sam ends up on the issue. The writers did have Cas tell Sam his life was worth saving and he didn`t have any need to atone, so I think this point is still in story play.

On the point of what is a hero, I`m using the term in the way this story frames it, which is being on the cosmic stage dealing with the fate of the world. Yes, every day people can be and are heroes, but in this story, they are part of normal life in a way the Winchesters are not. So Sam`s choice to walk away from hunting would be toward normal and safe. And if he does that, he walks right out of the story, which I don`t want.

I think Sam, like Dean and Cas, has been chosen for life on the cosmic stage. Cas just chose to remain an angel to fight the good fight, Dean chose to return to hunting after Lisa and I think that`s because, in Lord of the Ring terms, they are ring bearers and do not have the option to garden in Hobbiton. They have been changed and marked by the life they`ve led. I think Sam has carried the ring longer than anyone else and his arc is to accept himself, rather than try to be someone else. I think that`s why he`s getting feedback that his life is valuable and worth protecting and he doesn`t need to atone for anything. That`s just my read, though, and I may be wrong on where his arc is going.

I guess the last thing is, I think Dean knows Sam very well. He`d know his favourite colour and his favourite shirt. Dean could track Sam down in season four when Sam was trying his best to hide his tracks. He brought Sam up, made his dinners, got him to school, tucked him in at night. Dean`s decision to go with Gadreel`s plan wasn`t because he has no idea who his brother is, it was because he hasn`t experienced possession the way Sam has. And I agree with you, that is going to be a place of learning for Dean.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 15:34
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting JuliaG:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.


I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.

just an observation, but all dean ever does when he's angry at sam is lash out or punch him in the face. first half of s8 ringing a bell for anyone but me? and look what that did for sam..he was ready to die for dean rather than disappoint him.
sam who has been violated in both mind and body, is not allowed to lash out in anger at dean, because chuck forbid, dean might get his feelings hurt or even recognize how truly far he's gone this time. sam's not allowed to keep silent, you know actually try to process and reconcile what dean did to him with the fact that sam loves his brother very much. i think sam needs an operation manual. it just seems that sam has certain parameters he's supposed to follow, where dean pretty much is allowed to behave as he wills.
sam told dean he broke his trust. they are damaged not broken. sam is still there. sam has shown no signs that love is lost. dean is hurt, dean calls out to him, sam is there by his side. sam has made every attempt to get dean to open up to fix what's broken. dean just hasn't stepped up to the plate. that's not sam's fault. it's an unfair statement to lay blame the brother's damaged bond on sam's shoulders. not when a simple i'm sorry is really all that's necessary to start the healing process.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 15:34
Quote:
Quote:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.
I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.
just an observation, but all dean ever does when he's angry at sam is lash out or punch him in the face. first half of s8 ringing a bell for anyone but me? and look what that did for sam..he was ready to die for dean rather than disappoint him.
sam who has been violated in both mind and body, is not allowed to lash out in anger at dean, because chuck forbid, dean might get his feelings hurt or even recognize how truly far he's gone this time. sam's not allowed to keep silent, you know actually try to process and reconcile what dean did to him with the fact that sam loves his brother very much. i think sam needs an operation manual. it just seems that sam has certain parameters he's supposed to follow, where dean pretty much is allowed to behave as he wills.
sam told dean he broke his trust. they are damaged not broken. sam is still there. sam has shown no signs that love is lost. dean is hurt, dean calls out to him, sam is there by his side. sam has made every attempt to get dean to open up to fix what's broken. dean just hasn't stepped up to the plate. that's not sam's fault. it's an unfair statement to lay blame the brother's damaged bond on sam's shoulders. not when a simple i'm sorry is really all that's necessary to start the healing process.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 15:48
Quoting Beanie:
Enjoyable read, Gerry.

But I had some issues with both the writer and the pacing of this episode. I enjoy supporting characters. I cried over the loss of Rufus and Kevin and Benny and Ellen, sobbed over saying good-bye to Bobby, waved gleefully after Charlie, never understood the introduction of 'hunter' Garth, wish we had more Sheriff Mills and Abaddon, miss Chuck and have prepared my heart to shatter (again) should we ever lose Cas or Crowley.

I guess my point is, I enjoy a story, being entertained, talking for a week about what's going to happen next in regards to plot, theme, story and moving the action forward. I want to be invested in the entire story being told and whether I like, dislike, or never want to see again, the other character(s) in the story, I didn't get that with this episode.

I guess the placing of this particular episode was necessary for the drama between the brother's but I was bored. Bart didn't hold my interest (I doubt I could pick the actor out of a line-up, that's how little attention I paid him) and the continuity of the flow between the angel scenes and the scenes with Mrs. Tran were abrupt and awkward. I had to rewind and search for the resolution to the third captive, but I failed to find one.

I do believe I'm one of the few who wants to see more Abbadon and Crowley and Metatron and Cain and the story that will give me that. And before I get going on what the synopsis appears to hint about with Crowley.......I say, until your next review, have a good day!


Hi Beanie! For me, the scenes between the Trans were very emotional and I also enjoyed seeing the shape of Cas`s arc become clear. But I`m totally with you on wanting to see Abbadon, Crowley, the MoC -- I love that story line and hope it comes back very soon. I think it will.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 15:48
Quote:
Enjoyable read, Gerry.

But I had some issues with both the writer and the pacing of this episode. I enjoy supporting characters. I cried over the loss of Rufus and Kevin and Benny and Ellen, sobbed over saying good-bye to Bobby, waved gleefully after Charlie, never understood the introduction of 'hunter' Garth, wish we had more Sheriff Mills and Abaddon, miss Chuck and have prepared my heart to shatter (again) should we ever lose Cas or Crowley.

I guess my point is, I enjoy a story, being entertained, talking for a week about what's going to happen next in regards to plot, theme, story and moving the action forward. I want to be invested in the entire story being told and whether I like, dislike, or never want to see again, the other character(s) in the story, I didn't get that with this episode.

I guess the placing of this particular episode was necessary for the drama between the brother's but I was bored. Bart didn't hold my interest (I doubt I could pick the actor out of a line-up, that's how little attention I paid him) and the continuity of the flow between the angel scenes and the scenes with Mrs. Tran were abrupt and awkward. I had to rewind and search for the resolution to the third captive, but I failed to find one.

I do believe I'm one of the few who wants to see more Abbadon and Crowley and Metatron and Cain and the story that will give me that. And before I get going on what the synopsis appears to hint about with Crowley.......I say, until your next review, have a good day!
Hi Beanie! For me, the scenes between the Trans were very emotional and I also enjoyed seeing the shape of Cas`s arc become clear. But I`m totally with you on wanting to see Abbadon, Crowley, the MoC -- I love that story line and hope it comes back very soon. I think it will.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 15:56
quote: I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen.

i don't agree that's what sam did at all. so i think it's fair to say that this belief is your own perception which is fine, but i don't see it that way or believe sam was written that way.

sam wasn't painting their brotherhood in a negative light. sam was referring to this particular incident.
what happened now. sam was talking about dean needing to be his savior, his hero even though he didn't need saving. sam was talking about the fact that he'd accepted his fate and was ready to go. sam explained to dean that he thinks he's doing the right thing when he's doing more harm than good. dean thinks that saving sam at any cost is right but look at the consequences..k evin is dead because of me.
as i've stated above, sam wasn't referring to a lifetime, sam was referring to now. his comment about using the we're family as a cure all is sam telling dean that just because they are family it doesn't mean that they can do what ever is right for them, even if it's wrong and all is forgiven or the end justifies the means because we're family.

i never thought sam was talking about anything other than the current situation. but i don't doubt that he's learned his lesson from past mistakes which has influenced how he feels now as opposed to what he may have felt 9 years ago.

your assessment to presume sam was referring to their entire brotherhood is based on your own perception and that's ok. i don't believe after rereading the transcript percyowner provided, that the writer insinutated it was about anything prior to the current situation.

with respect, agree to disagree with you on this matter. different eyes and all.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 15:56
quote: I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen.

i don't agree that's what sam did at all. so i think it's fair to say that this belief is your own perception which is fine, but i don't see it that way or believe sam was written that way.

sam wasn't painting their brotherhood in a negative light. sam was referring to this particular incident.
what happened now. sam was talking about dean needing to be his savior, his hero even though he didn't need saving. sam was talking about the fact that he'd accepted his fate and was ready to go. sam explained to dean that he thinks he's doing the right thing when he's doing more harm than good. dean thinks that saving sam at any cost is right but look at the consequences..k evin is dead because of me.
as i've stated above, sam wasn't referring to a lifetime, sam was referring to now. his comment about using the we're family as a cure all is sam telling dean that just because they are family it doesn't mean that they can do what ever is right for them, even if it's wrong and all is forgiven or the end justifies the means because we're family.

i never thought sam was talking about anything other than the current situation. but i don't doubt that he's learned his lesson from past mistakes which has influenced how he feels now as opposed to what he may have felt 9 years ago.

your assessment to presume sam was referring to their entire brotherhood is based on your own perception and that's ok. i don't believe after rereading the transcript percyowner provided, that the writer insinutated it was about anything prior to the current situation.

with respect, agree to disagree with you on this matter. different eyes and all.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 16:04
Quoting nappi815:
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting JuliaG:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.


I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.

just an observation, but all dean ever does when he's angry at sam is lash out or punch him in the face. first half of s8 ringing a bell for anyone but me? and look what that did for sam..he was ready to die for dean rather than disappoint him.
sam who has been violated in both mind and body, is not allowed to lash out in anger at dean, because chuck forbid, dean might get his feelings hurt or even recognize how truly far he's gone this time. sam's not allowed to keep silent, you know actually try to process and reconcile what dean did to him with the fact that sam loves his brother very much. i think sam needs an operation manual. it just seems that sam has certain parameters he's supposed to follow, where dean pretty much is allowed to behave as he wills.
sam told dean he broke his trust. they are damaged not broken. sam is still there. sam has shown no signs that love is lost. dean is hurt, dean calls out to him, sam is there by his side. sam has made every attempt to get dean to open up to fix what's broken. dean just hasn't stepped up to the plate. that's not sam's fault. it's an unfair statement to lay blame the brother's damaged bond on sam's shoulders. not when a simple i'm sorry is really all that's necessary to start the healing process.


I think what getting in the way of the healing process is a clear definition of what the issues are for both guys.

Dean is struggling with the idea of apologizing for saving Sam`s life, but he does know he should have told Sam immediately and let him decide. He was going to do that as soon as they left the hospital and he was going to do it again after the fight with the goddess. He knows there is something to apologize for.

But Sam just opened up that something to include Dean`s entire definition of family and love and he`s being blamed for everything that`s gone wrong between them. I think Dean is struggling because he knows he did something wrong, but he doesn`t agree with the way Sam has framed it. I think if the guys could talk it out, they`d find the core of what they need to let go and what they should hang on to.

I don`t think Sam is responsible for damaging the bond. I just think right now the control for the conversation happening is in his court because he is the one who framed the discussion in the terms that the two are not brothers any more and he`s the one who walked away from having a discussion after Kevin`s words. He`s not ready to talk. I think the moment at the door where Sam paused shows he thought about turning around and letting the discussion happen. But he wasn`t ready.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 16:04
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.
I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.
just an observation, but all dean ever does when he's angry at sam is lash out or punch him in the face. first half of s8 ringing a bell for anyone but me? and look what that did for sam..he was ready to die for dean rather than disappoint him.
sam who has been violated in both mind and body, is not allowed to lash out in anger at dean, because chuck forbid, dean might get his feelings hurt or even recognize how truly far he's gone this time. sam's not allowed to keep silent, you know actually try to process and reconcile what dean did to him with the fact that sam loves his brother very much. i think sam needs an operation manual. it just seems that sam has certain parameters he's supposed to follow, where dean pretty much is allowed to behave as he wills.
sam told dean he broke his trust. they are damaged not broken. sam is still there. sam has shown no signs that love is lost. dean is hurt, dean calls out to him, sam is there by his side. sam has made every attempt to get dean to open up to fix what's broken. dean just hasn't stepped up to the plate. that's not sam's fault. it's an unfair statement to lay blame the brother's damaged bond on sam's shoulders. not when a simple i'm sorry is really all that's necessary to start the healing process.
I think what getting in the way of the healing process is a clear definition of what the issues are for both guys.

Dean is struggling with the idea of apologizing for saving Sam`s life, but he does know he should have told Sam immediately and let him decide. He was going to do that as soon as they left the hospital and he was going to do it again after the fight with the goddess. He knows there is something to apologize for.

But Sam just opened up that something to include Dean`s entire definition of family and love and he`s being blamed for everything that`s gone wrong between them. I think Dean is struggling because he knows he did something wrong, but he doesn`t agree with the way Sam has framed it. I think if the guys could talk it out, they`d find the core of what they need to let go and what they should hang on to.

I don`t think Sam is responsible for damaging the bond. I just think right now the control for the conversation happening is in his court because he is the one who framed the discussion in the terms that the two are not brothers any more and he`s the one who walked away from having a discussion after Kevin`s words. He`s not ready to talk. I think the moment at the door where Sam paused shows he thought about turning around and letting the discussion happen. But he wasn`t ready.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-01 16:13
Quoting nappi815:
quote: I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen.

i don't agree that's what sam did at all. so i think it's fair to say that this belief is your own perception which is fine, but i don't see it that way or believe sam was written that way.

sam wasn't painting their brotherhood in a negative light. sam was referring to this particular incident.
what happened now. sam was talking about dean needing to be his savior, his hero even though he didn't need saving. sam was talking about the fact that he'd accepted his fate and was ready to go. sam explained to dean that he thinks he's doing the right thing when he's doing more harm than good. dean thinks that saving sam at any cost is right but look at the consequences..kevin is dead because of me.
as i've stated above, sam wasn't referring to a lifetime, sam was referring to now. his comment about using the we're family as a cure all is sam telling dean that just because they are family it doesn't mean that they can do what ever is right for them, even if it's wrong and all is forgiven or the end justifies the means because we're family.

i never thought sam was talking about anything other than the current situation. but i don't doubt that he's learned his lesson from past mistakes which has influenced how he feels now as opposed to what he may have felt 9 years ago.

your assessment to presume sam was referring to their entire brotherhood is based on your own perception and that's ok. i don't believe after rereading the transcript percyowner provided, that the writer insinutated it was about anything prior to the current situation.

with respect, agree to disagree with you on this matter. different eyes and all.

Alot did not like what Sam said in the Purge because they think it transcended the current situation . I did not personally agree with that .

I do not believe Sam's reaction right now is the road block to them 'healing' it is a result of what Dean did and not something Sam sought. Until Dean moves forward from his mindset any attempt to 'heal' is underminded because the issue is still there.

If Sam's treatment of Dean causes Dean to take Sam at his word then that would be unfortunate. I certainly do not want it to be one of your feelings were wrong Sam and this is the result so' now how do you feel?.'

I want the brothers to work it out but until Dean moves from 'I would do it again' then the situation will just go around in circles.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-01 16:13
Quote:
quote: I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen.

i don't agree that's what sam did at all. so i think it's fair to say that this belief is your own perception which is fine, but i don't see it that way or believe sam was written that way.

sam wasn't painting their brotherhood in a negative light. sam was referring to this particular incident.
what happened now. sam was talking about dean needing to be his savior, his hero even though he didn't need saving. sam was talking about the fact that he'd accepted his fate and was ready to go. sam explained to dean that he thinks he's doing the right thing when he's doing more harm than good. dean thinks that saving sam at any cost is right but look at the consequences..kevin is dead because of me.
as i've stated above, sam wasn't referring to a lifetime, sam was referring to now. his comment about using the we're family as a cure all is sam telling dean that just because they are family it doesn't mean that they can do what ever is right for them, even if it's wrong and all is forgiven or the end justifies the means because we're family.

i never thought sam was talking about anything other than the current situation. but i don't doubt that he's learned his lesson from past mistakes which has influenced how he feels now as opposed to what he may have felt 9 years ago.

your assessment to presume sam was referring to their entire brotherhood is based on your own perception and that's ok. i don't believe after rereading the transcript percyowner provided, that the writer insinutated it was about anything prior to the current situation.

with respect, agree to disagree with you on this matter. different eyes and all.
Alot did not like what Sam said in the Purge because they think it transcended the current situation . I did not personally agree with that .

I do not believe Sam's reaction right now is the road block to them 'healing' it is a result of what Dean did and not something Sam sought. Until Dean moves forward from his mindset any attempt to 'heal' is underminded because the issue is still there.

If Sam's treatment of Dean causes Dean to take Sam at his word then that would be unfortunate. I certainly do not want it to be one of your feelings were wrong Sam and this is the result so' now how do you feel?.'

I want the brothers to work it out but until Dean moves from 'I would do it again' then the situation will just go around in circles.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 16:16
Quoting nappi815:
quote: I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen.

i don't agree that's what sam did at all. so i think it's fair to say that this belief is your own perception which is fine, but i don't see it that way or believe sam was written that way.

sam wasn't painting their brotherhood in a negative light. sam was referring to this particular incident.
what happened now. sam was talking about dean needing to be his savior, his hero even though he didn't need saving. sam was talking about the fact that he'd accepted his fate and was ready to go. sam explained to dean that he thinks he's doing the right thing when he's doing more harm than good. dean thinks that saving sam at any cost is right but look at the consequences..kevin is dead because of me.
as i've stated above, sam wasn't referring to a lifetime, sam was referring to now. his comment about using the we're family as a cure all is sam telling dean that just because they are family it doesn't mean that they can do what ever is right for them, even if it's wrong and all is forgiven or the end justifies the means because we're family.

i never thought sam was talking about anything other than the current situation. but i don't doubt that he's learned his lesson from past mistakes which has influenced how he feels now as opposed to what he may have felt 9 years ago.

your assessment to presume sam was referring to their entire brotherhood is based on your own perception and that's ok. i don't believe after rereading the transcript percyowner provided, that the writer insinutated it was about anything prior to the current situation.

with respect, agree to disagree with you on this matter. different eyes and all.


I`m basing my perspective on Sam referring to more than just the immediate situation on the conversation in Sharp Teeth. Sam says,

Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell?

and

You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.


That reads to me like Sam broadening the scope from only the possession and Gadreel. But we can agree to disagree. :-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 16:16
Quote:
quote: I think the idea that not everything that resulted from the possession was bad is important not because Sam can`t feel angry at being possessed, but because right now that anger has led him to paint the brotherhood and Dean`s worth as a hero in a negative light. He`s opened the scope to a huge degree, to the point that there are distortions. I think Berens used the Trans to provide a little balance to Sam`s charges to Dean about his view of family only causing bad things to happen.

i don't agree that's what sam did at all. so i think it's fair to say that this belief is your own perception which is fine, but i don't see it that way or believe sam was written that way.

sam wasn't painting their brotherhood in a negative light. sam was referring to this particular incident.
what happened now. sam was talking about dean needing to be his savior, his hero even though he didn't need saving. sam was talking about the fact that he'd accepted his fate and was ready to go. sam explained to dean that he thinks he's doing the right thing when he's doing more harm than good. dean thinks that saving sam at any cost is right but look at the consequences..kevin is dead because of me.
as i've stated above, sam wasn't referring to a lifetime, sam was referring to now. his comment about using the we're family as a cure all is sam telling dean that just because they are family it doesn't mean that they can do what ever is right for them, even if it's wrong and all is forgiven or the end justifies the means because we're family.

i never thought sam was talking about anything other than the current situation. but i don't doubt that he's learned his lesson from past mistakes which has influenced how he feels now as opposed to what he may have felt 9 years ago.

your assessment to presume sam was referring to their entire brotherhood is based on your own perception and that's ok. i don't believe after rereading the transcript percyowner provided, that the writer insinutated it was about anything prior to the current situation.

with respect, agree to disagree with you on this matter. different eyes and all.
I`m basing my perspective on Sam referring to more than just the immediate situation on the conversation in Sharp Teeth. Sam says,

Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell?

and

You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.


That reads to me like Sam broadening the scope from only the possession and Gadreel. But we can agree to disagree. :-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 16:42
Something's broken here.
I'm not saying that it's not.
I We don't see things the same way anymore -- Our roles in this whole thing.
I can't trust you.
We are family.
You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

this is the conversation from sharp teeth.
sam is reacting to what dean did to him, the possession. after everything dean had said in the church, his promise to sam, the first thing dean did was trick and manipulate him. dean didn't trust in sam to decide what's best for sam or what sam accepted to be his fate as there was no other option. sam had made peace with that and was ready to go. dean overrode his decision. he tricked him into angel possession. he lied to him for months. he never gave sam the option to decide what to do for himself because he didn't trust sam would do what dean wanted. he broke sam's trust.
sam is explaining that they have a different way of seeing things, they see their roles as different. maybe just sam does, because dean still sees his role as sam's parent/responsi bility/his job and not as his brother. sam doesn't see himself as worth more than anyone else. dean does.
dean's response to that: we are family
You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

every time sam and dean have hurt ea. other, the excuse for it has always been "we are family".
the things that have gone wrong because they're family: dean's demon deal, dean going to hell, sam breaking/ruby/d b/lucifer, jumping in the pit, retrieving flayed souls, abiding promises made....all these actions by both brothers have hurt ea. other. it's caused them pain. sometimes other's have died. and all of the wrong that's gone on between them as been because they are family and the excuse they used to do these things has been we are family.. what sam is saying now, is that we are family is no longer an acceptable excuse to hurt ea. other and innocents as well. sam has learned this lesson the hard way. dean has yet to learn this lesson.

i do not think sam is painting their brotherhood in a negative light, but i will contend that he is pointing out the negative aspects that came about because the "we are family" outlook has been used as a defense for constantly making decisions that have hurt ea. other and unfortunately innocents as well.

the reason sam is pointing this out to dean , is to stop it. stop using we are family as an acceptable excuse to do unacceptable things. it's time to draw the line.

sam may not be able to see dean as his personal hero at the moment, but i don't see sam's comment undermining dean as heroic. dean may very well once again view what sam is saying as something totally different than what sam is saying. that's not uncommon for dean to do.

i guess we can agree to disagree with respect of course. .

damn it percy....warn me if you're going to write down everything i'm going to say...you do it a lot more eloquently and my fingers could catch a break.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 16:42
Something's broken here.
I'm not saying that it's not.
I We don't see things the same way anymore -- Our roles in this whole thing.
I can't trust you.
We are family.
You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

this is the conversation from sharp teeth.
sam is reacting to what dean did to him, the possession. after everything dean had said in the church, his promise to sam, the first thing dean did was trick and manipulate him. dean didn't trust in sam to decide what's best for sam or what sam accepted to be his fate as there was no other option. sam had made peace with that and was ready to go. dean overrode his decision. he tricked him into angel possession. he lied to him for months. he never gave sam the option to decide what to do for himself because he didn't trust sam would do what dean wanted. he broke sam's trust.
sam is explaining that they have a different way of seeing things, they see their roles as different. maybe just sam does, because dean still sees his role as sam's parent/responsi bility/his job and not as his brother. sam doesn't see himself as worth more than anyone else. dean does.
dean's response to that: we are family
You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

every time sam and dean have hurt ea. other, the excuse for it has always been "we are family".
the things that have gone wrong because they're family: dean's demon deal, dean going to hell, sam breaking/ruby/d b/lucifer, jumping in the pit, retrieving flayed souls, abiding promises made....all these actions by both brothers have hurt ea. other. it's caused them pain. sometimes other's have died. and all of the wrong that's gone on between them as been because they are family and the excuse they used to do these things has been we are family.. what sam is saying now, is that we are family is no longer an acceptable excuse to hurt ea. other and innocents as well. sam has learned this lesson the hard way. dean has yet to learn this lesson.

i do not think sam is painting their brotherhood in a negative light, but i will contend that he is pointing out the negative aspects that came about because the "we are family" outlook has been used as a defense for constantly making decisions that have hurt ea. other and unfortunately innocents as well.

the reason sam is pointing this out to dean , is to stop it. stop using we are family as an acceptable excuse to do unacceptable things. it's time to draw the line.

sam may not be able to see dean as his personal hero at the moment, but i don't see sam's comment undermining dean as heroic. dean may very well once again view what sam is saying as something totally different than what sam is saying. that's not uncommon for dean to do.

i guess we can agree to disagree with respect of course. .

damn it percy....warn me if you're going to write down everything i'm going to say...you do it a lot more eloquently and my fingers could catch a break.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 17:02
Quoting nappi815:
Something's broken here.
I'm not saying that it's not.
I We don't see things the same way anymore -- Our roles in this whole thing.
I can't trust you.
We are family.
You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

this is the conversation from sharp teeth. nowhere in this conversation is sam painting their entire brotherhood in a negative light. he's reacting to what dean did to him, the possession. after everything dean had said in the church. the first thing dean did was trick and manipulate sam. he didn't trust in sam to decide what's best for sam or what sam accepted to be his fate as their was no other option. sam was ready to go. he made his peace and dean overrode his decision. he tricked him into angel possession. he lied to him for months. he never gave sam the option to decide what to do for himself because he didn't trust sam would do what dean wanted. he broke sam's trust.
sam is explaining that they have a different way of seeing things, they see their roles as different. or maybe just sam does. because dean still sees his role as sam's parent/savior and not his brother. sam tells him. i trusted you and now i can't. dean's response is we're family. sam's response that he acts as though it's a cure all for everything that has ever gone wrong is not sam saying that everything that has gone wrong is because we are family.
sam is saying that whenever dean or sam did something that hurt ea. other or hurt other, they both fall on the excuse "we're family" to make it ok. even if what they are doing is not ok. that's what sam means when he says we are family is not a cure all. that that can't be an acceptable excuse for every thing ea. has done wrong to or for ea. other.


We`ll agree to disagree because I think Sam is telling Dean that every bad thing that happened between them was caused by family, not that each guy just uses it as an excuse to cover over some other reason. He says that`s a fact. And his framing of the issue in the church is that Dean talked him out of boarding up hell, that he didn`t complete his mission.

Probably time to agree to disagree, though. Perhaps it will be addressed again at some later point. :-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-01 17:02
Quote:
Something's broken here.
I'm not saying that it's not.
I We don't see things the same way anymore -- Our roles in this whole thing.
I can't trust you.
We are family.
You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.

this is the conversation from sharp teeth. nowhere in this conversation is sam painting their entire brotherhood in a negative light. he's reacting to what dean did to him, the possession. after everything dean had said in the church. the first thing dean did was trick and manipulate sam. he didn't trust in sam to decide what's best for sam or what sam accepted to be his fate as their was no other option. sam was ready to go. he made his peace and dean overrode his decision. he tricked him into angel possession. he lied to him for months. he never gave sam the option to decide what to do for himself because he didn't trust sam would do what dean wanted. he broke sam's trust.
sam is explaining that they have a different way of seeing things, they see their roles as different. or maybe just sam does. because dean still sees his role as sam's parent/savior and not his brother. sam tells him. i trusted you and now i can't. dean's response is we're family. sam's response that he acts as though it's a cure all for everything that has ever gone wrong is not sam saying that everything that has gone wrong is because we are family.
sam is saying that whenever dean or sam did something that hurt ea. other or hurt other, they both fall on the excuse "we're family" to make it ok. even if what they are doing is not ok. that's what sam means when he says we are family is not a cure all. that that can't be an acceptable excuse for every thing ea. has done wrong to or for ea. other.
We`ll agree to disagree because I think Sam is telling Dean that every bad thing that happened between them was caused by family, not that each guy just uses it as an excuse to cover over some other reason. He says that`s a fact. And his framing of the issue in the church is that Dean talked him out of boarding up hell, that he didn`t complete his mission.

Probably time to agree to disagree, though. Perhaps it will be addressed again at some later point. :-)
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 17:35
Gerry I am one who thought Sam did not stick to the problem at hand. I understand Sam is lashing out but until he can focus on his issue with Dean and the possession then I don't think healing and understanding will happen.

I'm also not one who believes Dean has to make the first move. I'm not so sure that when Dean turned to Sam that this might have been the first move and Sam rejected it.

And on another note. Do you think God allowed Cas to take his journey so that he would be able to lead the angels? It just doesn't seem to be coincidental to me at least.

Also perhaps Metatron knew the consequences to closing the gates of heaven and hell would lead to souls stuck in the veil. He did ask Dean if they were prepared for the results.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-03-01 17:35
Gerry I am one who thought Sam did not stick to the problem at hand. I understand Sam is lashing out but until he can focus on his issue with Dean and the possession then I don't think healing and understanding will happen.

I'm also not one who believes Dean has to make the first move. I'm not so sure that when Dean turned to Sam that this might have been the first move and Sam rejected it.

And on another note. Do you think God allowed Cas to take his journey so that he would be able to lead the angels? It just doesn't seem to be coincidental to me at least.

Also perhaps Metatron knew the consequences to closing the gates of heaven and hell would lead to souls stuck in the veil. He did ask Dean if they were prepared for the results.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 17:36
Quote:
Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell?

and

You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.
I view this differently. For one thing Sam isn't wrong that how the family functions has caused much of what went wrong between them. John's insistence that going to college meant Sam betrayed the family and Dean going along with that caused problems. John selling his soul for Dean and telling him to kill his brother and Dean believing he would have to caused the problems because Dean believed in John as family. Dean selling his soul for Sam led to his going to hell for family. Sam wanting revenge (what Dean and John taught him was important) for Dean's death was because of how John and Dean presented the family quest. Dean shoving a mutilated soul back into Sam instead of begging Cas to take it to heaven so Sam could have peace was because Dean didn't want to lose his family. Dean deciding to override Sam's wishes and cram an angel into Sam was done in the name of family. So Sam is not out of line by noting that the way the Winchester use family as an excuse and a reason for actions that have made the family relationship and sometimes the world worse.

Then there is Sam talking about Dean stopping him at the church. The thing is, Sam trying to finish the Trials at the church didn't happen in a vacuum and I feel like how everything came to a head is sometimes pushed aside.

Sam wanted to leave hunting. Dean tried guilting him with the people who had been attacked by supernatural creatures while Sam lived his life. Sam didn't bite. Dean tried guilting Sam about not looking for him. Sam didn't bite. Dean managed to get Sam on board to FIND KEVIN a one time thing. Then Kevin pulled the close the Gates of Hell card and Dean used that telling Sam outright that Demons (with the implied Oh, Lucifer's vessel and demon blood addict) were in fact THEIR responsibility. And Sam bit. He probably shouldn't have, but he's been blamed for Lucifer and demons for a long time now and it worked. Dean got what he wanted Sam hunting again. So they tool around waiting for Kevin to decode the tablets. When he finally does Dean suddenly announces that HE'S going to do the Trials and he intends to die in the attempt. Once he is dead Sam can go have the life he wants. This, BTW, is after episode after episode of Dean busting Sam's chops for DARING to think Dean was dead and going to live his life. But this time he MEANS it not like the last time you left me TO ROT SAM! Then Sam ends up killing the Hell Hound. Some people have declared he did it on purpose to steal Dean's glory or for other reasons that I don't understand. But Sam kills the Hell Hound, doesn't want Dean on a suicide run, so he takes over the trials. As the Trials continue, Sam admits he always felt dirty and impure and that he finally feels that he is being purified. That finally he will be good enough. This is the context of the scene in the church. Dean was perfectly happy dying and leaving Sam guilt ridden AGAIN. Sam wanted to live so but felt he was such a failure that the only way to make it up to Dean was to die. When Dean convinced him to give up the Trials, he did it to MAKE DEAN HAPPY. Then Dean goes and does the one thing that Sam abhors and he does it TO SAM and he lies for months about it. Sam gave up doing what DEAN HAD CONVINCED HIM was the right thing for the world. He was finally feeling pure and he gave up that purity for Dean. And he failed the world because Dean fed him a pack of lies that he loved him (but not enough to honor his wishes) that Sam was wrong to believe that Dean didn't trust him (but he didn't trust him enough to tell him what was going on). Sam believed closing the Gates of Hell was the right thing to do, his final redemption and he gave it up for Dean. I understand why he blames Dean for doing it. He would have continued otherwise.

And just as a note, before we get too caught up in the idea that Dean can't live with the thought of Sam dying, the second he found out that Gadreel had fooled him and killed Kevin his first and only idea was to KILL SAM to get Gadreel. It took Cas talking him down to stop him from offing his beloved brother.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-01 17:36
Quote:
Back in that church, talking me out of boarding up hell?

and

You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family.
I view this differently. For one thing Sam isn't wrong that how the family functions has caused much of what went wrong between them. John's insistence that going to college meant Sam betrayed the family and Dean going along with that caused problems. John selling his soul for Dean and telling him to kill his brother and Dean believing he would have to caused the problems because Dean believed in John as family. Dean selling his soul for Sam led to his going to hell for family. Sam wanting revenge (what Dean and John taught him was important) for Dean's death was because of how John and Dean presented the family quest. Dean shoving a mutilated soul back into Sam instead of begging Cas to take it to heaven so Sam could have peace was because Dean didn't want to lose his family. Dean deciding to override Sam's wishes and cram an angel into Sam was done in the name of family. So Sam is not out of line by noting that the way the Winchester use family as an excuse and a reason for actions that have made the family relationship and sometimes the world worse.

Then there is Sam talking about Dean stopping him at the church. The thing is, Sam trying to finish the Trials at the church didn't happen in a vacuum and I feel like how everything came to a head is sometimes pushed aside.

Sam wanted to leave hunting. Dean tried guilting him with the people who had been attacked by supernatural creatures while Sam lived his life. Sam didn't bite. Dean tried guilting Sam about not looking for him. Sam didn't bite. Dean managed to get Sam on board to FIND KEVIN a one time thing. Then Kevin pulled the close the Gates of Hell card and Dean used that telling Sam outright that Demons (with the implied Oh, Lucifer's vessel and demon blood addict) were in fact THEIR responsibility. And Sam bit. He probably shouldn't have, but he's been blamed for Lucifer and demons for a long time now and it worked. Dean got what he wanted Sam hunting again. So they tool around waiting for Kevin to decode the tablets. When he finally does Dean suddenly announces that HE'S going to do the Trials and he intends to die in the attempt. Once he is dead Sam can go have the life he wants. This, BTW, is after episode after episode of Dean busting Sam's chops for DARING to think Dean was dead and going to live his life. But this time he MEANS it not like the last time you left me TO ROT SAM! Then Sam ends up killing the Hell Hound. Some people have declared he did it on purpose to steal Dean's glory or for other reasons that I don't understand. But Sam kills the Hell Hound, doesn't want Dean on a suicide run, so he takes over the trials. As the Trials continue, Sam admits he always felt dirty and impure and that he finally feels that he is being purified. That finally he will be good enough. This is the context of the scene in the church. Dean was perfectly happy dying and leaving Sam guilt ridden AGAIN. Sam wanted to live so but felt he was such a failure that the only way to make it up to Dean was to die. When Dean convinced him to give up the Trials, he did it to MAKE DEAN HAPPY. Then Dean goes and does the one thing that Sam abhors and he does it TO SAM and he lies for months about it. Sam gave up doing what DEAN HAD CONVINCED HIM was the right thing for the world. He was finally feeling pure and he gave up that purity for Dean. And he failed the world because Dean fed him a pack of lies that he loved him (but not enough to honor his wishes) that Sam was wrong to believe that Dean didn't trust him (but he didn't trust him enough to tell him what was going on). Sam believed closing the Gates of Hell was the right thing to do, his final redemption and he gave it up for Dean. I understand why he blames Dean for doing it. He would have continued otherwise.

And just as a note, before we get too caught up in the idea that Dean can't live with the thought of Sam dying, the second he found out that Gadreel had fooled him and killed Kevin his first and only idea was to KILL SAM to get Gadreel. It took Cas talking him down to stop him from offing his beloved brother.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 18:53
[quote name="Bluepony"]

i think sam is very focused on his issue with dean. i think he's made it pretty clear as to why his trust in dean has been broken. it would be a long laundry list for sam if he gave a play by play. and i have to say that his bringing up the church does tie into his trust issue that he's having with dean now. the way that conversation went down:
sam: you want to know what i confessed in there? what my greatest sin was. it was how many times i let you down. i can't do that again.
dean: sam
sam: what happens when you decide i can't be TRUSTED again? who are you going to turn to next time instead of me? another angel, another vampire. do you have any idea what it's like to watch your brother.
dean : is that seriously what you think? because it's never been like that ever. look man, i know i said some junk that set you back on your heels, but c'mon. i killed benny to save you . i'm willing to let him and all the other sons of bitches who killed mom go because of you. so don't you dare think there is anyone or anything i would put in front of you.
so from sam's pov, this conversation was about trust. in the end, sam believed that dean didn't trust anyone over sam. not cas, not benny, not anyone. noone came before him. he wasn't the failure sam thought himself to be in his eyes. he trusted dean when he begged him to see that. what do i do was his reply? sam believed he had dean's trust and faith and he put all of his in dean.
dean saw that conversation as sam thinking that dean put benny and cas ahead of him. that simply wasnt the case. noone, not even mom, comes before sam.
so when sam realizes that dean used deception into tricking sam to saying yes to possession, something that sam would prefer death over, it's that vile to him given his history of possession, and then lied to him about it, sam comes to the conclusion that dean didn't mean what he said at the trust, he doesn't in fact trust in him. not to make his own decisions and not to tell him the truth. mostly he allowed possession which sam would never want. dean used sam's trust in him against him. that's why sam is angry. that's why he's questioning dean's promise at the church. because what sam believed to be dean's promise is not what dean's promise was. .

as for sam having to make the first move. he has. do you know the only move dean has to make ? he has to say two words....it's starts with i'm and it ends with sorry.

as much fun as it is banging my head against the wall, i think i'll call it a day.

on the plus side, it makes for good discussion and it's kept me busy today...too damn cold to go outside.

thanks percy for your support.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-01 18:53
i think sam is very focused on his issue with dean. i think he's made it pretty clear as to why his trust in dean has been broken. it would be a long laundry list for sam if he gave a play by play. and i have to say that his bringing up the church does tie into his trust issue that he's having with dean now. the way that conversation went down:
sam: you want to know what i confessed in there? what my greatest sin was. it was how many times i let you down. i can't do that again.
dean: sam
sam: what happens when you decide i can't be TRUSTED again? who are you going to turn to next time instead of me? another angel, another vampire. do you have any idea what it's like to watch your brother.
dean : is that seriously what you think? because it's never been like that ever. look man, i know i said some junk that set you back on your heels, but c'mon. i killed benny to save you . i'm willing to let him and all the other sons of bitches who killed mom go because of you. so don't you dare think there is anyone or anything i would put in front of you.
so from sam's pov, this conversation was about trust. in the end, sam believed that dean didn't trust anyone over sam. not cas, not benny, not anyone. noone came before him. he wasn't the failure sam thought himself to be in his eyes. he trusted dean when he begged him to see that. what do i do was his reply? sam believed he had dean's trust and faith and he put all of his in dean.
dean saw that conversation as sam thinking that dean put benny and cas ahead of him. that simply wasnt the case. noone, not even mom, comes before sam.
so when sam realizes that dean used deception into tricking sam to saying yes to possession, something that sam would prefer death over, it's that vile to him given his history of possession, and then lied to him about it, sam comes to the conclusion that dean didn't mean what he said at the trust, he doesn't in fact trust in him. not to make his own decisions and not to tell him the truth. mostly he allowed possession which sam would never want. dean used sam's trust in him against him. that's why sam is angry. that's why he's questioning dean's promise at the church. because what sam believed to be dean's promise is not what dean's promise was. .

as for sam having to make the first move. he has. do you know the only move dean has to make ? he has to say two words....it's starts with i'm and it ends with sorry.

as much fun as it is banging my head against the wall, i think i'll call it a day.

on the plus side, it makes for good discussion and it's kept me busy today...too damn cold to go outside.

thanks percy for your support.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-01 21:37
*107 This"
And just as a note, before we get too caught up in the idea that Dean can't live with the thought of Sam dying, the second he found out that Gadreel had fooled him and killed Kevin his first and only idea was to KILL SAM to get Gadreel. It took Cas talking him down to stop him from offing his beloved brother.

Yes! Don't forget when Sam was locked in the cage and Bobby said they were killing him, Dean was okay with that.
It seems Sam can only die on Dean's terms.
Thank you Tim, percysowner and nappi815 for your reasonable and well thought out posts in defense of Sam.
What I find sad is that Sam should need to be defended as he was the one who was manipulated and wronged. Shakes head.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-01 21:37
*107 This"
And just as a note, before we get too caught up in the idea that Dean can't live with the thought of Sam dying, the second he found out that Gadreel had fooled him and killed Kevin his first and only idea was to KILL SAM to get Gadreel. It took Cas talking him down to stop him from offing his beloved brother.

Yes! Don't forget when Sam was locked in the cage and Bobby said they were killing him, Dean was okay with that.
It seems Sam can only die on Dean's terms.
Thank you Tim, percysowner and nappi815 for your reasonable and well thought out posts in defense of Sam.
What I find sad is that Sam should need to be defended as he was the one who was manipulated and wronged. Shakes head.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2014-03-01 22:40
Quoting anonymousN:
Quoting Manstrad:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.

If I may ask why was it creepy?

Oops! I tried to say It was creepy because Gerry mention the episode I watched right after Captives. Sorry my English is bad.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2014-03-01 22:40
Quote:
Quote:
Great review Gerry! It is a great relief that I'm not the only one who thought Mrs Tran's words mirrored Dean's actions. And it is a little creepy that I had to watch Faith again, not because of Dean but to remind me that Sam once was willing to go to extremes to take away his big brother from certain death.
If I may ask why was it creepy?
Oops! I tried to say It was creepy because Gerry mention the episode I watched right after Captives. Sorry my English is bad.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-02 04:45
Quoting Bluepony:
Gerry I am one who thought Sam did not stick to the problem at hand. I understand Sam is lashing out but until he can focus on his issue with Dean and the possession then I don't think healing and understanding will happen.

I'm also not one who believes Dean has to make the first move. I'm not so sure that when Dean turned to Sam that this might have been the first move and Sam rejected it.

And on another note. Do you think God allowed Cas to take his journey so that he would be able to lead the angels? It just doesn't seem to be coincidental to me at least.

Also perhaps Metatron knew the consequences to closing the gates of heaven and hell would lead to souls stuck in the veil. He did ask Dean if they were prepared for the results.

If Sam makes the first move then it would imply he was the one in the wrong remember Sam never asked Dean to do what he did . I know some fans are trying to put the onus on Sam but Dean does not regret what he did and clearly told Sam he would do it again, until Dean's mindset changes then there is little encouragement for Sam to talk.

Would you open negotiations with somebody under those circumstances ? Sam is not the one in the wrong no matter how much The Purge upset people and it is funny how mean words to Dean got people more upset than Dean's actions towards Sam .

Sam is handling it whether some think it will backfire on him or not the best way he can .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-03-02 04:45
Quote:
Gerry I am one who thought Sam did not stick to the problem at hand. I understand Sam is lashing out but until he can focus on his issue with Dean and the possession then I don't think healing and understanding will happen.

I'm also not one who believes Dean has to make the first move. I'm not so sure that when Dean turned to Sam that this might have been the first move and Sam rejected it.

And on another note. Do you think God allowed Cas to take his journey so that he would be able to lead the angels? It just doesn't seem to be coincidental to me at least.

Also perhaps Metatron knew the consequences to closing the gates of heaven and hell would lead to souls stuck in the veil. He did ask Dean if they were prepared for the results.
If Sam makes the first move then it would imply he was the one in the wrong remember Sam never asked Dean to do what he did . I know some fans are trying to put the onus on Sam but Dean does not regret what he did and clearly told Sam he would do it again, until Dean's mindset changes then there is little encouragement for Sam to talk.

Would you open negotiations with somebody under those circumstances ? Sam is not the one in the wrong no matter how much The Purge upset people and it is funny how mean words to Dean got people more upset than Dean's actions towards Sam .

Sam is handling it whether some think it will backfire on him or not the best way he can .
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-02 04:55
@96 Thank you for your reply.
Quote:
I think the idea that not everything ......there are a few marks in the positive column.
I don’t see any anger from Sam. He’s not ranting and raving, throwing things in Dean’s face etc; Sam is calmly stating. I’m not saying he’s not angry, but I think Sam knows that he has to temper that anger, disappointment, betrayal, fear etc because he knows that if what he says is driven by emotion and not logic then Dean will just write it off as Sam being an irrational, pissy little bitch, and that will be the end of all discussion. Sam has to be calm about the way he’s presenting this, so that Dean will listen, and maybe, eventually, take it in. You’re not going to win a shouting match with Dean, so there’s no point in even trying.

Sam is not painting the brotherhood in a negative light, he said that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family. That’s true. I’m sorry, but it’s true. Yes, there have been good moments, but overall, family has caused a lot of problems for more than just themselves. Were Sam and Dean not family, there would have been no deal in season 2, no going to hell, which led to the first seal being broken. (Were Sam and Dean not family then realistically, Dean would have killed Sam in season 2, long before things started heating up.) Were Sam and Dean not family then Sam would not have gone off on a revenge fuelled quest to kill Lilith, leading to the final seal being broken. Were Sam and Dean not family, there would have been no shoving Sam’s soul back into him, instead, if Dean got it out (if he got it out. Don’t forget that Adam, and possibly his soul, is still in the Cage), it would have been sent to heaven. If not, then it would have stayed in the Cage, an unfortunate casualty of the war they’re in, like so many others. It’s because they’re family that the gates of hell are not closed and it’s because they’re family that Dean did what he did in season 9.

Sam did not portray Dean’s worth as a hero in a negative light, he was speaking directly in reference to Dean’s actions re Sam. The quote was "You think you're my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad... But you're not." In other words, Dean thinks he’s doing these things in Sam’s best interests, that he’s doing them for Sam, but to do things for someone, that person has to want them. Sam doesn’t. He never asked for Dean to do what he did, he doesn’t want Dean sacrificing for him. He certainly didn’t want Dean going to hell. He didn’t want supernatural intervention in season 9. So, what Sam said are not distortions, they are bang on target, harshly so. Blasphemy inducing here, but if Peter went and rescued Jesus down from the cross, would he be seen as his his hero, his saviour?

In relation to Mrs. Tran bringing ‘balance’, if Mrs. Tran decided to bring Kevin back from the dead, would Sam and Dean help her? No, they would stop her, as they have stopped others in the past. If she decided to start making deals with Crowley would they support her? No, they would go through all the consequences and they would stop her, as they have done with others in the past. They would stop her because Sam and Dean know the consequences of such actions because (a) they have experienced them (b) they’ve spent their lives cleaning up after them and (c) they see the devastation left behind as a result of doing things like that. In other words, the risks and consequences are too big when others do them. However, when it is each other in danger, the risks and consequences are irrelevant in comparison to what they would gain.

In relation to the upside of Sam being alive, of course there’s an upside for Sam and Dean; they’re alive. However, what about everyone else? If the deaths of Sam or Dean are necessary to save countless lives, should those lives be sacrificed? Realistically, yes. I posted a scenario a few weeks about a virus on the verge of wiping out the population and the cure was found in the body of your underage sibling. However, the cure will end in your sibling’s death. Your sibling wants to do it, the scientists and everyone else needs for it to be done, but your consent is needed so what do you do? If you say yes then your sibling will die but everyone else will live, if you say no then your sibling will live and everyone else will die. What do you do, and which is the real sacrifice there?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-02 04:55
@96 Thank you for your reply.
Quote:
I think the idea that not everything ......there are a few marks in the positive column.
I don’t see any anger from Sam. He’s not ranting and raving, throwing things in Dean’s face etc; Sam is calmly stating. I’m not saying he’s not angry, but I think Sam knows that he has to temper that anger, disappointment, betrayal, fear etc because he knows that if what he says is driven by emotion and not logic then Dean will just write it off as Sam being an irrational, pissy little bitch, and that will be the end of all discussion. Sam has to be calm about the way he’s presenting this, so that Dean will listen, and maybe, eventually, take it in. You’re not going to win a shouting match with Dean, so there’s no point in even trying.

Sam is not painting the brotherhood in a negative light, he said that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family. That’s true. I’m sorry, but it’s true. Yes, there have been good moments, but overall, family has caused a lot of problems for more than just themselves. Were Sam and Dean not family, there would have been no deal in season 2, no going to hell, which led to the first seal being broken. (Were Sam and Dean not family then realistically, Dean would have killed Sam in season 2, long before things started heating up.) Were Sam and Dean not family then Sam would not have gone off on a revenge fuelled quest to kill Lilith, leading to the final seal being broken. Were Sam and Dean not family, there would have been no shoving Sam’s soul back into him, instead, if Dean got it out (if he got it out. Don’t forget that Adam, and possibly his soul, is still in the Cage), it would have been sent to heaven. If not, then it would have stayed in the Cage, an unfortunate casualty of the war they’re in, like so many others. It’s because they’re family that the gates of hell are not closed and it’s because they’re family that Dean did what he did in season 9.

Sam did not portray Dean’s worth as a hero in a negative light, he was speaking directly in reference to Dean’s actions re Sam. The quote was "You think you're my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you're doing is worth it because you've convinced yourself you're doing more good than bad... But you're not." In other words, Dean thinks he’s doing these things in Sam’s best interests, that he’s doing them for Sam, but to do things for someone, that person has to want them. Sam doesn’t. He never asked for Dean to do what he did, he doesn’t want Dean sacrificing for him. He certainly didn’t want Dean going to hell. He didn’t want supernatural intervention in season 9. So, what Sam said are not distortions, they are bang on target, harshly so. Blasphemy inducing here, but if Peter went and rescued Jesus down from the cross, would he be seen as his his hero, his saviour?

In relation to Mrs. Tran bringing ‘balance’, if Mrs. Tran decided to bring Kevin back from the dead, would Sam and Dean help her? No, they would stop her, as they have stopped others in the past. If she decided to start making deals with Crowley would they support her? No, they would go through all the consequences and they would stop her, as they have done with others in the past. They would stop her because Sam and Dean know the consequences of such actions because (a) they have experienced them (b) they’ve spent their lives cleaning up after them and (c) they see the devastation left behind as a result of doing things like that. In other words, the risks and consequences are too big when others do them. However, when it is each other in danger, the risks and consequences are irrelevant in comparison to what they would gain.

In relation to the upside of Sam being alive, of course there’s an upside for Sam and Dean; they’re alive. However, what about everyone else? If the deaths of Sam or Dean are necessary to save countless lives, should those lives be sacrificed? Realistically, yes. I posted a scenario a few weeks about a virus on the verge of wiping out the population and the cure was found in the body of your underage sibling. However, the cure will end in your sibling’s death. Your sibling wants to do it, the scientists and everyone else needs for it to be done, but your consent is needed so what do you do? If you say yes then your sibling will die but everyone else will live, if you say no then your sibling will live and everyone else will die. What do you do, and which is the real sacrifice there?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-02 05:07
Cont.

Sam and Dean really don’t deal in small any more. This is why you can’t compare season 2 with season 9. The stakes are higher so the consequences are higher. Add to that, their knowledge is more. They’re not going into these things blind because they know how it’ll end up. The only mark in the positive column at the moment is that Dean has Sam alive. Even at the moment there are more negatives than positives.

If 100 families lose a loved one to demon possession (or if Sam took action when Dean disappeared) as a result of the gates of hell not being closed, do the overall negatives (lots of dead people) outweigh the positive (Sam being alive)? That’s the burning question since Carver took over, the life of one vs the lives of many, the wants of one vs the needs of many.

Quote:
I think Sam was led ..... even if that meant losing him.
Sams power was based on what he already had. However, you could apply the same thinking as in the above situation. I don’t think Sam cared that he was becoming something he didn’t want to be. That was pretty much the story of his life. I think he accepted it because he knew he’d end up dead as a result whether that be via the angels, demons, overuse of his powers, or Dean. However, if his actions saved lives, if using his powers and becoming something he wasn’t stopped Lucifer from rising, then would it have been worth it? Sam would have ended up dead, but he was meant to be dead already, at least this death would be worth something. (That’s pretty much the Winchester way.) Again, one insignificant life vs the lives of many.

Quote:
I don`t have the same read of Sam`s decisions .... whatever it was
Yes, Sam did make his own decision re Amelia. However, look at situation in its entirety. We had just had months of Dean coming down hard on Sam for what he did. They were gung ho in the middle of the whole closing the gates of hell idea, Dean was still bffing with a vampire, and he was essentially saying that if Sam left then he (Dean) wouldn’t be happy (God, I absolutely hated that ‘one of us should be happy’ line!), so Sam decided to stay. Sure it was a decision, but given the circumstances, given what was said before, and the weight that Sam puts in Deans opinion of him, can you really say it was a free decision? If Dean had, at the very start of season 9 said, ‘Look, hunt with me if you want but if you don’t then no biggie. I’ll get Garth to be my back up. If you decide you want to stay here then good for you. I’m glad you got out, I’m happy for you. We'll go for a beer when I get back' etc then what way would Sam have chosen? He might still have gone with Dean, maybe because he didn’t trust Garth to watch his back, or he preferred Deans company or because he was more okay with hunting now etc but it would have enabled a more free decision than the ‘at least one of us’ should be happy spiel that he got.

Quote:
I agree with you that Dean`s part .... And they are effective.
In the early seasons, (and up until season the start of season 6), he wasn’t hamstrung, no. After the deal, it’s not unrealistic to think that Dean had learned not to make deals again. He didn’t stop him from jumping into the Cage. Now though, is Sam hamstrung? Yes. If Sam is hunting and he dies, then Dean will bring him back. There will be consequences to that. Therefore if those consequences are to be avoided, can Sam take the same risks he did before? If he cares about the lives of others, then no. (Which is what makes Dean’s mentality here so irrational. He wants Sam hunting but he doesn’t want him dying. However, with hunting you are always at risk of dying. It’s as if he doesn’t want to accept the consequences of the job, but still wants to do the job.) Unless Sam sticks to the easy, peasy hunts then he’s hamstrung.

Quote:
When Sam needed to jump ... is still in story play.
Shutting the gates of hell wasn’t just payback. Shutting the gates of hell would also stop future demon possession and the consequences of same. That’s why they go on ordinary hunts. It’s not payback for the person who was killed; it’s to stop other people being killed in the future. And the thing is, if it was any other hunter (Dean included) in Sam’s position in the church, Dean would not have tried to stop them because the result (closing the gates of hell), would have been worth the sacrifice (one person). The fact that Dean ‘didn’t view shutting the gates as requiring that level of Sacrifice from Sam’ is the problem. He doesn’t get to make that decision. Closing the gates of hell would have cost the life of one person, and what is that against the lives of many? (Admittedly, closing the gates of hell was as ridiculously stupid and illogical an idea as curing a demon, but it was presented as the right thing to do.)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-02 05:07
Cont.

Sam and Dean really don’t deal in small any more. This is why you can’t compare season 2 with season 9. The stakes are higher so the consequences are higher. Add to that, their knowledge is more. They’re not going into these things blind because they know how it’ll end up. The only mark in the positive column at the moment is that Dean has Sam alive. Even at the moment there are more negatives than positives.

If 100 families lose a loved one to demon possession (or if Sam took action when Dean disappeared) as a result of the gates of hell not being closed, do the overall negatives (lots of dead people) outweigh the positive (Sam being alive)? That’s the burning question since Carver took over, the life of one vs the lives of many, the wants of one vs the needs of many.

Quote:
I think Sam was led ..... even if that meant losing him.
Sams power was based on what he already had. However, you could apply the same thinking as in the above situation. I don’t think Sam cared that he was becoming something he didn’t want to be. That was pretty much the story of his life. I think he accepted it because he knew he’d end up dead as a result whether that be via the angels, demons, overuse of his powers, or Dean. However, if his actions saved lives, if using his powers and becoming something he wasn’t stopped Lucifer from rising, then would it have been worth it? Sam would have ended up dead, but he was meant to be dead already, at least this death would be worth something. (That’s pretty much the Winchester way.) Again, one insignificant life vs the lives of many.

Quote:
I don`t have the same read of Sam`s decisions .... whatever it was
Yes, Sam did make his own decision re Amelia. However, look at situation in its entirety. We had just had months of Dean coming down hard on Sam for what he did. They were gung ho in the middle of the whole closing the gates of hell idea, Dean was still bffing with a vampire, and he was essentially saying that if Sam left then he (Dean) wouldn’t be happy (God, I absolutely hated that ‘one of us should be happy’ line!), so Sam decided to stay. Sure it was a decision, but given the circumstances, given what was said before, and the weight that Sam puts in Deans opinion of him, can you really say it was a free decision? If Dean had, at the very start of season 9 said, ‘Look, hunt with me if you want but if you don’t then no biggie. I’ll get Garth to be my back up. If you decide you want to stay here then good for you. I’m glad you got out, I’m happy for you. We'll go for a beer when I get back' etc then what way would Sam have chosen? He might still have gone with Dean, maybe because he didn’t trust Garth to watch his back, or he preferred Deans company or because he was more okay with hunting now etc but it would have enabled a more free decision than the ‘at least one of us’ should be happy spiel that he got.

Quote:
I agree with you that Dean`s part .... And they are effective.
In the early seasons, (and up until season the start of season 6), he wasn’t hamstrung, no. After the deal, it’s not unrealistic to think that Dean had learned not to make deals again. He didn’t stop him from jumping into the Cage. Now though, is Sam hamstrung? Yes. If Sam is hunting and he dies, then Dean will bring him back. There will be consequences to that. Therefore if those consequences are to be avoided, can Sam take the same risks he did before? If he cares about the lives of others, then no. (Which is what makes Dean’s mentality here so irrational. He wants Sam hunting but he doesn’t want him dying. However, with hunting you are always at risk of dying. It’s as if he doesn’t want to accept the consequences of the job, but still wants to do the job.) Unless Sam sticks to the easy, peasy hunts then he’s hamstrung.

Quote:
When Sam needed to jump ... is still in story play.
Shutting the gates of hell wasn’t just payback. Shutting the gates of hell would also stop future demon possession and the consequences of same. That’s why they go on ordinary hunts. It’s not payback for the person who was killed; it’s to stop other people being killed in the future. And the thing is, if it was any other hunter (Dean included) in Sam’s position in the church, Dean would not have tried to stop them because the result (closing the gates of hell), would have been worth the sacrifice (one person). The fact that Dean ‘didn’t view shutting the gates as requiring that level of Sacrifice from Sam’ is the problem. He doesn’t get to make that decision. Closing the gates of hell would have cost the life of one person, and what is that against the lives of many? (Admittedly, closing the gates of hell was as ridiculously stupid and illogical an idea as curing a demon, but it was presented as the right thing to do.)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-02 05:22
Cont.
You mentioned Dean helping Sam jump in the Cage. However, at the start of season 6 Dean said he was doing everything he could to bust him out of there. If Dean did manage to get him out and Lucifer and Michael came too, would getting Sam out have been worth it? Is Sam’s life worth more than the lives that would be lost as a result of Michael and Lucifer. To Dean, yes but to everyone else no.

I’m not sure why Castiel telling Sam his life was worth saving and he has no need to atone is relevant. First of all, the need to atone comes from within, not from what someone tells you to do. Jeez, if you go to confession then your 'atonement' usually involves saying three Hail Marys!.

Being forgiven is not the same as forgiving yourself. In relation to Sam’s life being important, of course it is, everyone's is. Is it more important than Kevin’s or the next person who dies as a result of demon possession?

Quote:
On the point of what is a hero....
I’m not longer sure that the show is framing hunters as heroes. Gordon, Martin, Tim, Reggie etc, could hardly be described as ‘heroes’ (though I’d argue about Martin). Even John has been blackened.

For me, Sam’s choice to walk away (at the end of the series) would be welcome because it would encompass what we’re constantly told is the ethos of the show: Free. Will. Sam making a free decision, without coercion, without obligation, without mitigating factors, would be showing free will.

Quote:
I think Sam, like Dean and Cas, has been chosen for life on the cosmic stage. ....
In Lord of the Rings, after they got back, Sam stayed in the garden in Hobbiton until Rose died. It was only after that he crossed the seas, so he had decades in Hobbiton first. (So the question is where is the SPN Valinor, is it a safe life, is it heaven, is it hunting, is it together? Frodo and Sam did separate, but were reunited at the end. At the end of SPN could we see the same for Sam and Dean?)

If they are chosen for life on the cosmic stage then the idea of free will is moot. That’s my point about Sam having to accept himself. He can’t do that until he knows himself, and he can’t do that until he’s not caught in the constraints of what others expect for him. He’s been a ring bearer long enough, it’s not until he gets to Valinor that he can find out who he is and accept himself.

Quote:
I guess the last thing is, I think Dean knows Sam very well. ....
Making him dinner, getting him to school etc was a long, long time ago. That’s Sammy, the baby brother who was jumping around with delight at the fireworks in Dean’s memories and gave Dean the toy out of the cereal box. That’s not Sam, not any more. Sam is someone who has been a vessel more times than he’s been not, who has spent more time in the Cage then he’s been alive (and can ever be alive), who has seen his loved ones die before his eyes numerous times, and often they’ve died because of him. That Sam doesn’t need to be tucked into bed at night.

Dean’s decision wasn’t based on not having experienced possession. A person doesn’t need to be assaulted to know they don’t want to experience assault and Sam and Dean have anti-possession tattoos for a reason, despite Dean never being possessed. Dean’s decision was based on the fact that he could stop his brother’s death, so he did. That sounds very innocuous and very reasonable, until you look at the circumstances and the story as a whole.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-02 05:22
Cont.
You mentioned Dean helping Sam jump in the Cage. However, at the start of season 6 Dean said he was doing everything he could to bust him out of there. If Dean did manage to get him out and Lucifer and Michael came too, would getting Sam out have been worth it? Is Sam’s life worth more than the lives that would be lost as a result of Michael and Lucifer. To Dean, yes but to everyone else no.

I’m not sure why Castiel telling Sam his life was worth saving and he has no need to atone is relevant. First of all, the need to atone comes from within, not from what someone tells you to do. Jeez, if you go to confession then your 'atonement' usually involves saying three Hail Marys!.

Being forgiven is not the same as forgiving yourself. In relation to Sam’s life being important, of course it is, everyone's is. Is it more important than Kevin’s or the next person who dies as a result of demon possession?

Quote:
On the point of what is a hero....
I’m not longer sure that the show is framing hunters as heroes. Gordon, Martin, Tim, Reggie etc, could hardly be described as ‘heroes’ (though I’d argue about Martin). Even John has been blackened.

For me, Sam’s choice to walk away (at the end of the series) would be welcome because it would encompass what we’re constantly told is the ethos of the show: Free. Will. Sam making a free decision, without coercion, without obligation, without mitigating factors, would be showing free will.

Quote:
I think Sam, like Dean and Cas, has been chosen for life on the cosmic stage. ....
In Lord of the Rings, after they got back, Sam stayed in the garden in Hobbiton until Rose died. It was only after that he crossed the seas, so he had decades in Hobbiton first. (So the question is where is the SPN Valinor, is it a safe life, is it heaven, is it hunting, is it together? Frodo and Sam did separate, but were reunited at the end. At the end of SPN could we see the same for Sam and Dean?)

If they are chosen for life on the cosmic stage then the idea of free will is moot. That’s my point about Sam having to accept himself. He can’t do that until he knows himself, and he can’t do that until he’s not caught in the constraints of what others expect for him. He’s been a ring bearer long enough, it’s not until he gets to Valinor that he can find out who he is and accept himself.

Quote:
I guess the last thing is, I think Dean knows Sam very well. ....
Making him dinner, getting him to school etc was a long, long time ago. That’s Sammy, the baby brother who was jumping around with delight at the fireworks in Dean’s memories and gave Dean the toy out of the cereal box. That’s not Sam, not any more. Sam is someone who has been a vessel more times than he’s been not, who has spent more time in the Cage then he’s been alive (and can ever be alive), who has seen his loved ones die before his eyes numerous times, and often they’ve died because of him. That Sam doesn’t need to be tucked into bed at night.

Dean’s decision wasn’t based on not having experienced possession. A person doesn’t need to be assaulted to know they don’t want to experience assault and Sam and Dean have anti-possession tattoos for a reason, despite Dean never being possessed. Dean’s decision was based on the fact that he could stop his brother’s death, so he did. That sounds very innocuous and very reasonable, until you look at the circumstances and the story as a whole.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 08:24
when sam realized in lucifer rising how he'd been played and he should've listened to dean, the first words out of his mouth was i'm sorry. he apologized over and over again to dean after that. first thing sam did when he realized he did his brother wrong...he said he was sorry. but he had to do more than that with dean. dean told sam he couldn't trust him. sam had to earn dean's trust back. he had to work at it. he had to fix what he'd broke. i don't recall any sympathy for sam for dean's harsh words. i definitely don't recall anyone saying that dean needed to make the first move in making things right with sam. sam took responsibility for his actions, he didn't wallow in his guilt, he made the first move...he said he was sorry. dean made the second move by telling sam his issue and sam then worked his ass off to make it right again.
now dean has broken sam's trust. was the first thing he said to sam, as sam said to dean, i'm sorry? no. he didn't say anything. instead of facing up to what he did to his brother, he wallowed in his guilt and shame and walked away from his brother,
since dean has come back to sam, at any point has dean taken responsibility for the pain he know he caused his brother? has he at any point offered his brother a moment of his time to say..sam, i'm sorry for the pain i caused you . he's been in the bunker with sam. sam telling him that a trust was broken didn't warrant an apology from dean in sharp teeth? sam's stance that being partners is where they seem to be right now wasn't enough of a red flag to dean..he's that blind to the fact that what he did to sam has brought sam to feeling this way..and that still wasn't enough for dean to say those two words to his brother...i'm sorry.
sam's stance to dean about being partners in no way is an obstacle to an apology. on the contrary, i believe sam's stance was the first move, which he shouldn't have had to make in the first place, to make dean see how far he's really gone and the damage he caused. sam is trying to get dean to fix it. otherwise sam would've said nothing at all to dean, took off and went his own way while dean went his. but sam made the first move despite it being dean's job. he laid it out for dean. sam lost his trust and dean has to work to gain it back. not unlke what sam had to do not so long ago.
now there are people going on about how dean was ready to talk and sam just walked away. seriously...kev in exonerates dean from guilt and now he's all open for discussion. what if kevin didn't exonerate dean from his guilt? would dean have been ready to talk then? he's had a chance to apologize to his brother from the moment sam was sam again and he found out what dean did. it's been weeks. sam has been waiting prior to kevin's arrival, for weeks for dean to simply acknowledge what he'd done that's hurting his brother. dean's apology to sam should've been instant,as sam's apology was to dean back in s5. but it never came. it still hasn't come. so to try to turn it around on sam because he left the room without even knowing that dean turned to talk to him, is ludicrous.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 08:24
when sam realized in lucifer rising how he'd been played and he should've listened to dean, the first words out of his mouth was i'm sorry. he apologized over and over again to dean after that. first thing sam did when he realized he did his brother wrong...he said he was sorry. but he had to do more than that with dean. dean told sam he couldn't trust him. sam had to earn dean's trust back. he had to work at it. he had to fix what he'd broke. i don't recall any sympathy for sam for dean's harsh words. i definitely don't recall anyone saying that dean needed to make the first move in making things right with sam. sam took responsibility for his actions, he didn't wallow in his guilt, he made the first move...he said he was sorry. dean made the second move by telling sam his issue and sam then worked his ass off to make it right again.
now dean has broken sam's trust. was the first thing he said to sam, as sam said to dean, i'm sorry? no. he didn't say anything. instead of facing up to what he did to his brother, he wallowed in his guilt and shame and walked away from his brother,
since dean has come back to sam, at any point has dean taken responsibility for the pain he know he caused his brother? has he at any point offered his brother a moment of his time to say..sam, i'm sorry for the pain i caused you . he's been in the bunker with sam. sam telling him that a trust was broken didn't warrant an apology from dean in sharp teeth? sam's stance that being partners is where they seem to be right now wasn't enough of a red flag to dean..he's that blind to the fact that what he did to sam has brought sam to feeling this way..and that still wasn't enough for dean to say those two words to his brother...i'm sorry.
sam's stance to dean about being partners in no way is an obstacle to an apology. on the contrary, i believe sam's stance was the first move, which he shouldn't have had to make in the first place, to make dean see how far he's really gone and the damage he caused. sam is trying to get dean to fix it. otherwise sam would've said nothing at all to dean, took off and went his own way while dean went his. but sam made the first move despite it being dean's job. he laid it out for dean. sam lost his trust and dean has to work to gain it back. not unlke what sam had to do not so long ago.
now there are people going on about how dean was ready to talk and sam just walked away. seriously...kev in exonerates dean from guilt and now he's all open for discussion. what if kevin didn't exonerate dean from his guilt? would dean have been ready to talk then? he's had a chance to apologize to his brother from the moment sam was sam again and he found out what dean did. it's been weeks. sam has been waiting prior to kevin's arrival, for weeks for dean to simply acknowledge what he'd done that's hurting his brother. dean's apology to sam should've been instant,as sam's apology was to dean back in s5. but it never came. it still hasn't come. so to try to turn it around on sam because he left the room without even knowing that dean turned to talk to him, is ludicrous.
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2014-03-02 10:26
Good read, thank you. I only disagreed with one thing you said "Sam has been on a journey out of the story since season eight, which has been frustrating me. He’s either deciding he doesn’t need to be a hero and other people can hunt evil, or he’s thinking he’s only good for sacrifice." See, I remember him saying ALL last season that he planned to live through the trails. Him and Dean both. He wasn't ready to die until the very end. I think that was in part because of how bad of shape he was in at that point. Trust me; when you are really sick, for a long time, it can be easy to give up. Plus it helps if you think you are saving the world from Demons as well!

I am loving the story so far. Can hardly wait to see where they take it next
PENNY JAIME
# PENNY JAIME 2014-03-02 10:26
Good read, thank you. I only disagreed with one thing you said "Sam has been on a journey out of the story since season eight, which has been frustrating me. He’s either deciding he doesn’t need to be a hero and other people can hunt evil, or he’s thinking he’s only good for sacrifice." See, I remember him saying ALL last season that he planned to live through the trails. Him and Dean both. He wasn't ready to die until the very end. I think that was in part because of how bad of shape he was in at that point. Trust me; when you are really sick, for a long time, it can be easy to give up. Plus it helps if you think you are saving the world from Demons as well!

I am loving the story so far. Can hardly wait to see where they take it next
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 11:35
Quoting nappi815:
it still hasn't come. so to try to turn it around on sam because he left the room without even knowing that dean turned to talk to him, is ludicrous.


Nappi, I welcome all views on the episode and the discussion that follows. However, I do ask that you do the same. The reviews are meant to spur discussion and all are welcome to contribute. Please try and avoid loaded labels toward opposing views. We are not going to all end up interpreting everything the same and this story line is intentionally emotional and with differing perspectives by different characters, so that will be reflected in the audience.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 11:35
Quote:
it still hasn't come. so to try to turn it around on sam because he left the room without even knowing that dean turned to talk to him, is ludicrous.
Nappi, I welcome all views on the episode and the discussion that follows. However, I do ask that you do the same. The reviews are meant to spur discussion and all are welcome to contribute. Please try and avoid loaded labels toward opposing views. We are not going to all end up interpreting everything the same and this story line is intentionally emotional and with differing perspectives by different characters, so that will be reflected in the audience.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 11:50
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
@96 Thank you for your reply.

Sam is not painting the brotherhood in a negative light, he said that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family. That’s true. I’m sorry, but it’s true. Yes, there have been good moments, but overall, family has caused a lot of problems for more than just themselves.


Here's where interpretation comes in, because I don't think the show has shown that to be true. I think the opposite has been shown. The boys' bond did indeed make them vulnerable to making emotional choices and Dean did make the decision to bring Sam back. And if he hadn't he would have put a spanner in the plan to use Sam.

But the demons had Jake, just as the angels had Adam. There were contingency plans, so the Apocalypse would have gone forward and neither Jake nor Adam were shown to have any likelihood of resisting their roles. Jake's reasoning for killing Sam was spot on for Lucifer's plans. So the world would have ended in fire, just as fate had decreed.

The only two people capable of wrestling that fate and winning were the Winchesters. They introduced free will into the design and only their journey together had the option of defeating both Lucifer and Michael and circumventing the fight. Their bond, while the source of their vulnerabiity, was also their strength and the piece of the puzzle Lucifer and Michael could not control. Herding Winchesters was like herding cats. I think Kripke meant Chuck's summation of the Apocalypse story line "They did all right" to point out their journey, mistakes and all, led them to save the world and they did it by believing in their bond and family.

I think the current story line is going to pick up those threads, not toss them away. Cas now has to save heaven and he's going to do so by offering a different choice than blind obedience. Again, free will is going to be key and Cas's past mistakes, while terrible, still led him to the place he is now, which is a position to restructure heaven. I think it's an echo of Sam and Dean's journey seasons 4-5. And I suspect Sam still has his own part to play in the question of free will. As does Dean. Both boys are still on a journey, which I think is a good thing in terms of the story. Sam having no further personal arc really gives him little reason to remain at the center of the story. I think both Sam and Dean have realizations to make and the relationship will benefit from them. And since their relationship gives them strength, that will be good for their fight against elements of heaven and hell which have no regard for humanity.

In my view, Cas surviving due to Gadreel's intervention is an upside. Kevin's death was a downside. Sam's hurt at the possession is a downside. Sam's survival is an upside. The road forward is not straight and never was. I think Sam will have more to think about in terms of his valuing of his own life and Dean will have more to think about in terms of valuing the honesty between the boys.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 11:50
@96 Thank you for your reply.
Quote:

Sam is not painting the brotherhood in a negative light, he said that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family. That’s true. I’m sorry, but it’s true. Yes, there have been good moments, but overall, family has caused a lot of problems for more than just themselves.
Here's where interpretation comes in, because I don't think the show has shown that to be true. I think the opposite has been shown. The boys' bond did indeed make them vulnerable to making emotional choices and Dean did make the decision to bring Sam back. And if he hadn't he would have put a spanner in the plan to use Sam.

But the demons had Jake, just as the angels had Adam. There were contingency plans, so the Apocalypse would have gone forward and neither Jake nor Adam were shown to have any likelihood of resisting their roles. Jake's reasoning for killing Sam was spot on for Lucifer's plans. So the world would have ended in fire, just as fate had decreed.

The only two people capable of wrestling that fate and winning were the Winchesters. They introduced free will into the design and only their journey together had the option of defeating both Lucifer and Michael and circumventing the fight. Their bond, while the source of their vulnerabiity, was also their strength and the piece of the puzzle Lucifer and Michael could not control. Herding Winchesters was like herding cats. I think Kripke meant Chuck's summation of the Apocalypse story line "They did all right" to point out their journey, mistakes and all, led them to save the world and they did it by believing in their bond and family.

I think the current story line is going to pick up those threads, not toss them away. Cas now has to save heaven and he's going to do so by offering a different choice than blind obedience. Again, free will is going to be key and Cas's past mistakes, while terrible, still led him to the place he is now, which is a position to restructure heaven. I think it's an echo of Sam and Dean's journey seasons 4-5. And I suspect Sam still has his own part to play in the question of free will. As does Dean. Both boys are still on a journey, which I think is a good thing in terms of the story. Sam having no further personal arc really gives him little reason to remain at the center of the story. I think both Sam and Dean have realizations to make and the relationship will benefit from them. And since their relationship gives them strength, that will be good for their fight against elements of heaven and hell which have no regard for humanity.

In my view, Cas surviving due to Gadreel's intervention is an upside. Kevin's death was a downside. Sam's hurt at the possession is a downside. Sam's survival is an upside. The road forward is not straight and never was. I think Sam will have more to think about in terms of his valuing of his own life and Dean will have more to think about in terms of valuing the honesty between the boys.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 12:33
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
Cont.
Shutting the gates of hell wasn’t just payback. Shutting the gates of hell would also stop future demon possession and the consequences of same. That’s why they go on ordinary hunts. It’s not payback for the person who was killed; it’s to stop other people being killed in the future. And the thing is, if it was any other hunter (Dean included) in Sam’s position in the church, Dean would not have tried to stop them because the result (closing the gates of hell), would have been worth the sacrifice (one person). The fact that Dean ‘didn’t view shutting the gates as requiring that level of Sacrifice from Sam’ is the problem. He doesn’t get to make that decision. Closing the gates of hell would have cost the life of one person, and what is that against the lives of many? (Admittedly, closing the gates of hell was as ridiculously stupid and illogical an idea as curing a demon, but it was presented as the right thing to do.)


I think the question of shutting the gates of hell is a little murkier than that. Dean did frame the desire to close the gates as payback:

DEAN
I can't believe what I'm hearing. Sam, we have an opportunity to wipe the slate clean. We take Kevin to the tablet, he tells us the spell, we send every demon back to hell – forever. Every single bastard that destroyed our lives, killed our mother, killed Jess. And you're not sure?

That's the speech that motivates Sam into talking to Kevin. The brothers do think their payback will also benefit the world, but there was no real discussion about the possible ramifications of shutting the gates or whether that decision was one meant for them. They aren't dealing with a situation thrust upon them, as they were with the Apocalypse. They can decide not to go forward if they think their plan has flaws.

I think we're seeing the flaws. Sam and Dean never considered what would happen to the souls journeying there if the gates were shut. Now all the souls meant for heaven can't get in because of Metatron's meddling. Would Sam and Dean's meddling have created the same chaos? Were they, like Cas with Purgatory, acting out of hubris in thinking their desire for payback was in the universe's best interest?

I think this is a question in play. Dean's instinct in the church was to reaffirm to Sam about the centrality of their bond for him and that their strength as a partnership made the kind of difference they were meant to make in the fight against evil. Sam's counterargument was that he's a flawed person who lets people down, so he might as well do some good by sacrificing himself. I think that's a fun mirror reflection of his thinking around his Swan Song sacrifice, distorted due to his own self-loathing. Sam's initial sacrifice was due to his own innate sense of justice and caring and inner strength, not his flaws. He doesn't have to sacrifice himself again just to prove his worth.

I think he's on the road to realizing that.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 12:33
Quote:
Cont.
Shutting the gates of hell wasn’t just payback. Shutting the gates of hell would also stop future demon possession and the consequences of same. That’s why they go on ordinary hunts. It’s not payback for the person who was killed; it’s to stop other people being killed in the future. And the thing is, if it was any other hunter (Dean included) in Sam’s position in the church, Dean would not have tried to stop them because the result (closing the gates of hell), would have been worth the sacrifice (one person). The fact that Dean ‘didn’t view shutting the gates as requiring that level of Sacrifice from Sam’ is the problem. He doesn’t get to make that decision. Closing the gates of hell would have cost the life of one person, and what is that against the lives of many? (Admittedly, closing the gates of hell was as ridiculously stupid and illogical an idea as curing a demon, but it was presented as the right thing to do.)
I think the question of shutting the gates of hell is a little murkier than that. Dean did frame the desire to close the gates as payback:

DEAN
I can't believe what I'm hearing. Sam, we have an opportunity to wipe the slate clean. We take Kevin to the tablet, he tells us the spell, we send every demon back to hell – forever. Every single bastard that destroyed our lives, killed our mother, killed Jess. And you're not sure?

That's the speech that motivates Sam into talking to Kevin. The brothers do think their payback will also benefit the world, but there was no real discussion about the possible ramifications of shutting the gates or whether that decision was one meant for them. They aren't dealing with a situation thrust upon them, as they were with the Apocalypse. They can decide not to go forward if they think their plan has flaws.

I think we're seeing the flaws. Sam and Dean never considered what would happen to the souls journeying there if the gates were shut. Now all the souls meant for heaven can't get in because of Metatron's meddling. Would Sam and Dean's meddling have created the same chaos? Were they, like Cas with Purgatory, acting out of hubris in thinking their desire for payback was in the universe's best interest?

I think this is a question in play. Dean's instinct in the church was to reaffirm to Sam about the centrality of their bond for him and that their strength as a partnership made the kind of difference they were meant to make in the fight against evil. Sam's counterargument was that he's a flawed person who lets people down, so he might as well do some good by sacrificing himself. I think that's a fun mirror reflection of his thinking around his Swan Song sacrifice, distorted due to his own self-loathing. Sam's initial sacrifice was due to his own innate sense of justice and caring and inner strength, not his flaws. He doesn't have to sacrifice himself again just to prove his worth.

I think he's on the road to realizing that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-02 12:46
Gerry, just to note what Tim is quoting is the line that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family.

This is not a discussion about if the world is better for the brotherhood. Sam is addressing the immediate issue how the brotherhood and how family as defined by the Winchesters, Dean especially, has affected the relationship.

And I think that is where Sam should focus. Sam has already saved the world. As you pointed out, the demons and the angels wanted the Apocalypse and they wanted it NOW, so it would have happened. Using that as an assumption you can't even blame Sam for starting it, but as you have noted he was the only one capable of stopping it (with Dean's help). So he has done his part in saving the world and at great cost. He took on his Hell memories to join Dean in fighting Cas and helped save the world a SECOND time by being part of putting the Leviathan down. Dean may have taken the ultimate hit, but Sam was by his side until the end. He was ready, willing and able to try and save the world a THIRD time at the cost of his life, but Dean stopped him. So, IMHO, saving the world does not have to be at the top of Sam's to-do list anymore. Now it is time to focus on how family dynamics affect the actual family. And IN MY MIND, they are, as Sam said, being pretty destructive to the relationship between Sam and Dean.

Dean's inability to let go has led to uncountable suffering for SAM and DEAN. Dean went to Hell, Sam was so guilt ridden and gutted and, yes vengeful, he turned to Ruby which ended up with him releasing Lucifer and eventually landed him in the Cage. Sam's love of Dean had him take on memories of the Cage to fight by Dean's side. Dean's desire to keep Sam in the hunting life caused Dean to push the "let's close the Gates of Hell" agenda while Dean's fear of and feelings of abandonment had him laying blame on Sam for 1) not looking for him when he was in Purgatory; 2) turning to Ruby 5 (or 7) years ago even after Sam did everything to redeem himself; 3) coming back soulless and the constant drip, drip, drip of "your a terrible brother" led Sam to feel that his ONLY contribution to Dean was to commit suicide for the second time (and only in Supernatural is that sentence not totally bonkers). Then Dean's inability to let Sam go led to him tricking Sam into vesselling an angel without his knowledge and with extremely dubious consent (I would call it only technical consent that was really non-consent). So as Sam said everything that has gone wrong BETWEEN THEM has to do with the broken family dynamics and the unhealthy codependence they have. They have a right to have a healthy rewarding relationship and that probably means that they are going to have to change the terms of how this relationship works. But it is the only way for things to work well between them.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-02 12:46
Gerry, just to note what Tim is quoting is the line that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family.

This is not a discussion about if the world is better for the brotherhood. Sam is addressing the immediate issue how the brotherhood and how family as defined by the Winchesters, Dean especially, has affected the relationship.

And I think that is where Sam should focus. Sam has already saved the world. As you pointed out, the demons and the angels wanted the Apocalypse and they wanted it NOW, so it would have happened. Using that as an assumption you can't even blame Sam for starting it, but as you have noted he was the only one capable of stopping it (with Dean's help). So he has done his part in saving the world and at great cost. He took on his Hell memories to join Dean in fighting Cas and helped save the world a SECOND time by being part of putting the Leviathan down. Dean may have taken the ultimate hit, but Sam was by his side until the end. He was ready, willing and able to try and save the world a THIRD time at the cost of his life, but Dean stopped him. So, IMHO, saving the world does not have to be at the top of Sam's to-do list anymore. Now it is time to focus on how family dynamics affect the actual family. And IN MY MIND, they are, as Sam said, being pretty destructive to the relationship between Sam and Dean.

Dean's inability to let go has led to uncountable suffering for SAM and DEAN. Dean went to Hell, Sam was so guilt ridden and gutted and, yes vengeful, he turned to Ruby which ended up with him releasing Lucifer and eventually landed him in the Cage. Sam's love of Dean had him take on memories of the Cage to fight by Dean's side. Dean's desire to keep Sam in the hunting life caused Dean to push the "let's close the Gates of Hell" agenda while Dean's fear of and feelings of abandonment had him laying blame on Sam for 1) not looking for him when he was in Purgatory; 2) turning to Ruby 5 (or 7) years ago even after Sam did everything to redeem himself; 3) coming back soulless and the constant drip, drip, drip of "your a terrible brother" led Sam to feel that his ONLY contribution to Dean was to commit suicide for the second time (and only in Supernatural is that sentence not totally bonkers). Then Dean's inability to let Sam go led to him tricking Sam into vesselling an angel without his knowledge and with extremely dubious consent (I would call it only technical consent that was really non-consent). So as Sam said everything that has gone wrong BETWEEN THEM has to do with the broken family dynamics and the unhealthy codependence they have. They have a right to have a healthy rewarding relationship and that probably means that they are going to have to change the terms of how this relationship works. But it is the only way for things to work well between them.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 13:06
Quoting percysowner:
Gerry, just to note what Tim is quoting is the line that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family.

This is not a discussion about if the world is better for the brotherhood. Sam is addressing the immediate issue how the brotherhood and how family as defined by the Winchesters, Dean especially, has affected the relationship.


Hi Percy! I see the framing differently. Sam says in Sharp Teeth he and Dean see their roles differently, because Dean talked Sam out of closing the gates of hell. That's not just the personal. He also asks Dean to justify saving him on the grounds of what's been accomplished for their mission about the gates--show him the upside.

To my read, Sam opened the scope to examine what their relationship ups and downs have done for the world, not just to each other, and he doesn't see an upside, which I think is a distorted view based on his lifelong feeling of being tainted.

I also agree that Sam's view of the brotherhood as it affects themselves is very much in play in the story. All the Winchesters' support group - Jodie, Cas and Kevin - have validated the worth of the bond, not told them how destructive it is.

Sam was fed demon blood as a baby and had most of the touchstone people in his life besides his dad, Dean and Bobby be disguised demons. His life at Stanford was under the control of demons. He himself felt impure and flawed, but had no idea why. He wanted to run from this feeling, but you can't run from yourself.

The only way for Sam to learn what he was afraid of and face it was forward with Dean, stripping away the illusions he'd been harbouring about his life at Stanford. And Dean had to face his own inner demons, which was the potential he has for both love and destruction. He is both the righteous man and the torturer, and his life with Sam helps him maintain the balance, because that part is based on love, and love is stronger than hate, though hate is very seductive.

I know we won't convince each other and that's fine. :-) We'll see more of the overall shape as the story progresses and that will answer some of the questions on what's still in play.

Thanks for all the excellent discussion from everyone. I think we're meant to have differing ways of reading the story, because neither guy is supposed to be completely wrong or completely right in how he is reacting. Just understandable.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 13:06
Quote:
Gerry, just to note what Tim is quoting is the line that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they’re family.

This is not a discussion about if the world is better for the brotherhood. Sam is addressing the immediate issue how the brotherhood and how family as defined by the Winchesters, Dean especially, has affected the relationship.
Hi Percy! I see the framing differently. Sam says in Sharp Teeth he and Dean see their roles differently, because Dean talked Sam out of closing the gates of hell. That's not just the personal. He also asks Dean to justify saving him on the grounds of what's been accomplished for their mission about the gates--show him the upside.

To my read, Sam opened the scope to examine what their relationship ups and downs have done for the world, not just to each other, and he doesn't see an upside, which I think is a distorted view based on his lifelong feeling of being tainted.

I also agree that Sam's view of the brotherhood as it affects themselves is very much in play in the story. All the Winchesters' support group - Jodie, Cas and Kevin - have validated the worth of the bond, not told them how destructive it is.

Sam was fed demon blood as a baby and had most of the touchstone people in his life besides his dad, Dean and Bobby be disguised demons. His life at Stanford was under the control of demons. He himself felt impure and flawed, but had no idea why. He wanted to run from this feeling, but you can't run from yourself.

The only way for Sam to learn what he was afraid of and face it was forward with Dean, stripping away the illusions he'd been harbouring about his life at Stanford. And Dean had to face his own inner demons, which was the potential he has for both love and destruction. He is both the righteous man and the torturer, and his life with Sam helps him maintain the balance, because that part is based on love, and love is stronger than hate, though hate is very seductive.

I know we won't convince each other and that's fine. :-) We'll see more of the overall shape as the story progresses and that will answer some of the questions on what's still in play.

Thanks for all the excellent discussion from everyone. I think we're meant to have differing ways of reading the story, because neither guy is supposed to be completely wrong or completely right in how he is reacting. Just understandable.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 17:06
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting nappi815:
it still hasn't come. so to try to turn it around on sam because he left the room without even knowing that dean turned to talk to him, is ludicrous.


Nappi, I welcome all views on the episode and the discussion that follows. However, I do ask that you do the same. The reviews are meant to spur discussion and all are welcome to contribute. Please try and avoid loaded labels toward opposing views. We are not going to all end up interpreting everything the same and this story line is intentionally emotional and with differing perspectives by different characters, so that will be reflected in the audience.


oh. i didn't realize that i was breaking a rule. i wasn't referring to a specific individual, i didn't realize i wasn't allowed to refer to a general notion in a negative manner. i made a mistake that might have actually angered people and possibly hurt their feelings. you pointed out that i wronged people. i should own up to my mistake and apologize. but, i'm not going to. i know you said it was wrong and i most likely alienated a lot of people, but you know what i'm right. i have posted ample examples from show in which sam has apologized to dean when he'd done wrong. i've given ample examples of dean punishing sam for his mistakes. i've given examples of where sam had to earn back dean's trust. i've provided analogies comparing sam's trauma to that of a victim of physical assault. i am right to defend sam winchester. ok, so i made some people mad at me. you know what, the end justifies the means. and i'd do it all again, the same way.

how do you feel about me? do you sympathize with me. with my efforts to support sam winchester. ? or do you think i'm a bitch? i'll bet you a steak dinner you all think i'm a bitch.

i gotta ask then, what makes me different than dean? let's disregard the fiction/reality thing. i'm talking circumstance. i made a mistake. you called me out on it. by rights i owe you an apology after, all my mistake hurt others. my apology should come now, not when i'm ready to give it to you.
dean made a mistake. he hurt and caused pain to his brother. sam called him out on that. dean owes sam an apology. his apology should be instant, not when he's ready to give it.
so i ask you, in regards to the specific circumstance of making a mistake, hurting someone, and owning up to it...how is what i'm doing any different than dean? why does he deserve sympathy and empathy and i deserve wrath and hate? we both followed our hearts. we're both protecting sam winchester? so i ask you what's the difference?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 17:06
Quote:
Quote:
it still hasn't come. so to try to turn it around on sam because he left the room without even knowing that dean turned to talk to him, is ludicrous.
Nappi, I welcome all views on the episode and the discussion that follows. However, I do ask that you do the same. The reviews are meant to spur discussion and all are welcome to contribute. Please try and avoid loaded labels toward opposing views. We are not going to all end up interpreting everything the same and this story line is intentionally emotional and with differing perspectives by different characters, so that will be reflected in the audience.
oh. i didn't realize that i was breaking a rule. i wasn't referring to a specific individual, i didn't realize i wasn't allowed to refer to a general notion in a negative manner. i made a mistake that might have actually angered people and possibly hurt their feelings. you pointed out that i wronged people. i should own up to my mistake and apologize. but, i'm not going to. i know you said it was wrong and i most likely alienated a lot of people, but you know what i'm right. i have posted ample examples from show in which sam has apologized to dean when he'd done wrong. i've given ample examples of dean punishing sam for his mistakes. i've given examples of where sam had to earn back dean's trust. i've provided analogies comparing sam's trauma to that of a victim of physical assault. i am right to defend sam winchester. ok, so i made some people mad at me. you know what, the end justifies the means. and i'd do it all again, the same way.

how do you feel about me? do you sympathize with me. with my efforts to support sam winchester. ? or do you think i'm a bitch? i'll bet you a steak dinner you all think i'm a bitch.

i gotta ask then, what makes me different than dean? let's disregard the fiction/reality thing. i'm talking circumstance. i made a mistake. you called me out on it. by rights i owe you an apology after, all my mistake hurt others. my apology should come now, not when i'm ready to give it to you.
dean made a mistake. he hurt and caused pain to his brother. sam called him out on that. dean owes sam an apology. his apology should be instant, not when he's ready to give it.
so i ask you, in regards to the specific circumstance of making a mistake, hurting someone, and owning up to it...how is what i'm doing any different than dean? why does he deserve sympathy and empathy and i deserve wrath and hate? we both followed our hearts. we're both protecting sam winchester? so i ask you what's the difference?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 17:07
The quote I heard that makes the most sense to me is that these guys don't even know how the make things right. That is why it is so upsetting to the fans ( and I know purposely written that way so that we are just as upset as Sam and Dean). If they don't know how they can fix this, how can we help them fix it. We speculate endlessly on how we want them to resolve this problem (again just what the writers were hoping we would do), but we are just as powerless to help them as they are to communicate with each other. They both see the world, their relationship to each other and how they view their roles so differently and they always have. This problem was 9 years (series time) in the making. It is going to take some serious movement towards or away from each other to make any progress. I for one am enjoying the ride even if my stomach is in knots half the time. It is fun speculating but I agree we have no idea where this is going and a little thing like the end of the world keeps getting in their way.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 17:07
The quote I heard that makes the most sense to me is that these guys don't even know how the make things right. That is why it is so upsetting to the fans ( and I know purposely written that way so that we are just as upset as Sam and Dean). If they don't know how they can fix this, how can we help them fix it. We speculate endlessly on how we want them to resolve this problem (again just what the writers were hoping we would do), but we are just as powerless to help them as they are to communicate with each other. They both see the world, their relationship to each other and how they view their roles so differently and they always have. This problem was 9 years (series time) in the making. It is going to take some serious movement towards or away from each other to make any progress. I for one am enjoying the ride even if my stomach is in knots half the time. It is fun speculating but I agree we have no idea where this is going and a little thing like the end of the world keeps getting in their way.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 17:13
gerry,

there has been quite the discussion going back and forth on the way the boys are handling things. when you pointed out that i had gone about the wrong way of doing it, that i, in fact, may have hurt others people's feelings or at the very least made them angry, i thought i might use my mistake in an effort to point out that dean made a mistake out of love but he should at least apologize. of course that's one side of the debate, the side i fall on. i thought if i compared the the similarities it might give one pause to consider the other side.

please understand that there was absolutely no animosity stemming from any part of my body when i wrote that post. i wasn't trying to dis other's opinions. it was my mere attempt in trying to support sam.

i hate writing stuff and not being able to talk face to face. you see the written word but you don't hear the tone in which it's being stated and then you're misunderstood, taken the wrong way. as i was writing the above post the tone in my head was matter of fact. there's was no anger, or i'm gonna show you ...it was simply just very matter of fact. it was really just meant to be an example and nothing else.

i actually really do apologize for my mistake, it was honestly unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way. contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion
and sometimes the way you speak in your head isn't the way it's read on the screen and if at all you misinterpret my intent, let me say i'm sorry for that.

i'm a very nice person. i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but when and if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 17:13
gerry,

there has been quite the discussion going back and forth on the way the boys are handling things. when you pointed out that i had gone about the wrong way of doing it, that i, in fact, may have hurt others people's feelings or at the very least made them angry, i thought i might use my mistake in an effort to point out that dean made a mistake out of love but he should at least apologize. of course that's one side of the debate, the side i fall on. i thought if i compared the the similarities it might give one pause to consider the other side.

please understand that there was absolutely no animosity stemming from any part of my body when i wrote that post. i wasn't trying to dis other's opinions. it was my mere attempt in trying to support sam.

i hate writing stuff and not being able to talk face to face. you see the written word but you don't hear the tone in which it's being stated and then you're misunderstood, taken the wrong way. as i was writing the above post the tone in my head was matter of fact. there's was no anger, or i'm gonna show you ...it was simply just very matter of fact. it was really just meant to be an example and nothing else.

i actually really do apologize for my mistake, it was honestly unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way. contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion
and sometimes the way you speak in your head isn't the way it's read on the screen and if at all you misinterpret my intent, let me say i'm sorry for that.

i'm a very nice person. i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but when and if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 17:30
Nappi #121 We are all fans of the show let's please remember that. Gerry wrote a review that was told more from Dean's point of view. I feel that is a voice that is sometimes lacking on this website (at least in the comment section). I for one appreciate that point of view even if I sometimes argue the other side. We are all friends here.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 17:30
Nappi #121 We are all fans of the show let's please remember that. Gerry wrote a review that was told more from Dean's point of view. I feel that is a voice that is sometimes lacking on this website (at least in the comment section). I for one appreciate that point of view even if I sometimes argue the other side. We are all friends here.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 18:09
Quoting cheryl42:
Nappi #121 We are all fans of the show let's please remember that. Gerry wrote a review that was told more from Dean's point of view. I feel that is a voice that is sometimes lacking on this website (at least in the comment section). I for one appreciate that point of view even if I sometimes argue the other side. We are all friends here.


of course i know that cheryl. that post was just a point i was making in regards to the situation going on between sam and dean. there's been quite the discussion going back and forth in regards to the way in which things are currently being dealt with by the boys. some see it one way, some the other. i think it's safe to say that in all views, examples are being used to support such view.

i wasn't being mean to gerry in the above post. there is absolutely no animosity stemming from me what so ever. i was just trying to make a point.

i followed up that post with my actual apology for making that mistake. it truly was unintentional. i just used my mistake as a comparison to dean's mistake. i totally explained my self in my second post. i purposely waited to do my actual apology in the second post, so that the first post would posit the question.
i come here to discuss the show. we all love the show, we all love the boys. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. that's just silly. i mean i have no doubt that my posts make people angry, those of us who differ in opinion, but i don't go out of my way to hurt people's feelings because they don't agree with me. if i go about it the wrong way, say the wrong thing and they let me know, of course i apologize. one can get lost in the emotion, it happens.
i'm sorry if you think that i came across in a harsh manner. perhaps i should've just put it all together in one post. it might have caused less confusion and wouldn't have come across as unfriendly, it certainly wasn't intended to be. really i just thought comparing the situation might give one pause for not seeing sam in such a negative light. it really wasn't meant to do anything more than that. .
sorry for the unintended misrepresentati on.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 18:09
Quote:
Nappi #121 We are all fans of the show let's please remember that. Gerry wrote a review that was told more from Dean's point of view. I feel that is a voice that is sometimes lacking on this website (at least in the comment section). I for one appreciate that point of view even if I sometimes argue the other side. We are all friends here.
of course i know that cheryl. that post was just a point i was making in regards to the situation going on between sam and dean. there's been quite the discussion going back and forth in regards to the way in which things are currently being dealt with by the boys. some see it one way, some the other. i think it's safe to say that in all views, examples are being used to support such view.

i wasn't being mean to gerry in the above post. there is absolutely no animosity stemming from me what so ever. i was just trying to make a point.

i followed up that post with my actual apology for making that mistake. it truly was unintentional. i just used my mistake as a comparison to dean's mistake. i totally explained my self in my second post. i purposely waited to do my actual apology in the second post, so that the first post would posit the question.
i come here to discuss the show. we all love the show, we all love the boys. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. that's just silly. i mean i have no doubt that my posts make people angry, those of us who differ in opinion, but i don't go out of my way to hurt people's feelings because they don't agree with me. if i go about it the wrong way, say the wrong thing and they let me know, of course i apologize. one can get lost in the emotion, it happens.
i'm sorry if you think that i came across in a harsh manner. perhaps i should've just put it all together in one post. it might have caused less confusion and wouldn't have come across as unfriendly, it certainly wasn't intended to be. really i just thought comparing the situation might give one pause for not seeing sam in such a negative light. it really wasn't meant to do anything more than that. .
sorry for the unintended misrepresentati on.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 18:27
Quoting nappi815:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.


Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 18:27
Quote:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.
Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 18:30
Quoting cheryl42:
The quote I heard that makes the most sense to me is that these guys don't even know how the make things right. That is why it is so upsetting to the fans ( and I know purposely written that way so that we are just as upset as Sam and Dean). If they don't know how they can fix this, how can we help them fix it. We speculate endlessly on how we want them to resolve this problem (again just what the writers were hoping we would do), but we are just as powerless to help them as they are to communicate with each other. They both see the world, their relationship to each other and how they view their roles so differently and they always have. This problem was 9 years (series time) in the making. It is going to take some serious movement towards or away from each other to make any progress. I for one am enjoying the ride even if my stomach is in knots half the time. It is fun speculating but I agree we have no idea where this is going and a little thing like the end of the world keeps getting in their way.


I think that is a very valid point - both guys are struggling; both would like to resolve the situation, but neither is sure how to bridge the gap in perception of the problem. I think they'l get there!
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 18:30
Quote:
The quote I heard that makes the most sense to me is that these guys don't even know how the make things right. That is why it is so upsetting to the fans ( and I know purposely written that way so that we are just as upset as Sam and Dean). If they don't know how they can fix this, how can we help them fix it. We speculate endlessly on how we want them to resolve this problem (again just what the writers were hoping we would do), but we are just as powerless to help them as they are to communicate with each other. They both see the world, their relationship to each other and how they view their roles so differently and they always have. This problem was 9 years (series time) in the making. It is going to take some serious movement towards or away from each other to make any progress. I for one am enjoying the ride even if my stomach is in knots half the time. It is fun speculating but I agree we have no idea where this is going and a little thing like the end of the world keeps getting in their way.
I think that is a very valid point - both guys are struggling; both would like to resolve the situation, but neither is sure how to bridge the gap in perception of the problem. I think they'l get there!
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-02 18:32
Hi nappi! I get what you were trying to say and I can attest that you are a positive and optimistic person. Sometimes we all get caught up in some of these arguments. Sometimes we all just took a break and went to the pretty!! :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-02 18:32
Hi nappi! I get what you were trying to say and I can attest that you are a positive and optimistic person. Sometimes we all get caught up in some of these arguments. Sometimes we all just took a break and went to the pretty!! :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 19:13
Nappi I know what you were saying. I read both posts. This is really between you and Gerry and has absolutely nothing to do with me. I have been reading Alice's comments so I am a little sensitive to some of the comments on the WFB. We have already lost SweetonDean (although I have tracked her down) and now it looks like Alice is done with posting reviews here as well. I am not the website police so I do apologize for over stepping my bounds. You and I have had some fun conversations and I hope to continue having them.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 19:13
Nappi I know what you were saying. I read both posts. This is really between you and Gerry and has absolutely nothing to do with me. I have been reading Alice's comments so I am a little sensitive to some of the comments on the WFB. We have already lost SweetonDean (although I have tracked her down) and now it looks like Alice is done with posting reviews here as well. I am not the website police so I do apologize for over stepping my bounds. You and I have had some fun conversations and I hope to continue having them.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 19:30
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting nappi815:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.


Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.


gerry ,

i make you this solemn oath... there was no tone. that's why i hate that we can't sit in a room and talk. when you write, you have to be so careful..and even then the words don't match the tone in which you are intending. half the time you don't realize you're doing something wrong until someone points it out.

when i used the term ludicrous as the adjective to describe the notion i was referring to, i really didn't mean to insult. it was truly my mistake. i thought it was ok to use that word regarding a general idea. i didn't connect it with " opposing view".

so when you pointed out my mistake regarding the use of that word of course i felt bad and my first thought was i need to apologize but then i had a second thought. let me use my mistake as an advantage. i believe by now you are aware of my view on the whole sam/dean thing at the moment. :D . so i figured, this is an opportunity for me to make my point once again. compare the two situations...an d ponder the question...wher e is the difference? i thought when reading the post one would stop and consider...well , there is validity here, so what is the difference?

God's honest, there was no intended tone in my second post-- the one in which i said i wouldn't say i'm sorry because i thought i was right. that i had done it for the right reason. i was doing it for sam, damned the consequence kind of thing. all i meant to do was point out both similar circumstances. when i was writing the post i wasn't angry or vengeful or anything that might make you think i was going out of my way to be rude and piss you off. why the hell would i want to do that? i love it here. i don't want to be banned from the site. plus to be honest it makes me feel good when people take the time to read what i have to say, i'm not going to jeopardize that. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. hell if i don't like a post, i won't read it. if i do read it and feel strongly enough to respond, i try my best to do it with a modicum of decorum and tact. lord knows i sometimes mess up...but when i do i always always apologize and i try very hard not to screw up again. obviously i failed on that .
you know you may not believe this, but i do love dean winchester, if i didn't i wouldn't even bother talking about him. if i didn't love him then i wouldn't get so frustrated when he does things that make me want to body slam him..although body slamming isn't really such a bad thing now is it? :D

thanks leah..i really meant no harm. i hope the following apologies have cleared that up :-)

i should have just made one giant post. i intentionally posted a second time underneath to explain what i was trying to do and give you my real apology because i thought it was a more affective way to pose the question. as i wrote the post it was so matter of fact in my head. it was never meant to be mean. i was really just trying to use my mistake towards sam's advantage.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 19:30
Quote:
Quote:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.
Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.
gerry ,

i make you this solemn oath... there was no tone. that's why i hate that we can't sit in a room and talk. when you write, you have to be so careful..and even then the words don't match the tone in which you are intending. half the time you don't realize you're doing something wrong until someone points it out.

when i used the term ludicrous as the adjective to describe the notion i was referring to, i really didn't mean to insult. it was truly my mistake. i thought it was ok to use that word regarding a general idea. i didn't connect it with " opposing view".

so when you pointed out my mistake regarding the use of that word of course i felt bad and my first thought was i need to apologize but then i had a second thought. let me use my mistake as an advantage. i believe by now you are aware of my view on the whole sam/dean thing at the moment. :D . so i figured, this is an opportunity for me to make my point once again. compare the two situations...an d ponder the question...wher e is the difference? i thought when reading the post one would stop and consider...well , there is validity here, so what is the difference?

God's honest, there was no intended tone in my second post-- the one in which i said i wouldn't say i'm sorry because i thought i was right. that i had done it for the right reason. i was doing it for sam, damned the consequence kind of thing. all i meant to do was point out both similar circumstances. when i was writing the post i wasn't angry or vengeful or anything that might make you think i was going out of my way to be rude and piss you off. why the hell would i want to do that? i love it here. i don't want to be banned from the site. plus to be honest it makes me feel good when people take the time to read what i have to say, i'm not going to jeopardize that. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. hell if i don't like a post, i won't read it. if i do read it and feel strongly enough to respond, i try my best to do it with a modicum of decorum and tact. lord knows i sometimes mess up...but when i do i always always apologize and i try very hard not to screw up again. obviously i failed on that .
you know you may not believe this, but i do love dean winchester, if i didn't i wouldn't even bother talking about him. if i didn't love him then i wouldn't get so frustrated when he does things that make me want to body slam him..although body slamming isn't really such a bad thing now is it? :D

thanks leah..i really meant no harm. i hope the following apologies have cleared that up :-)

i should have just made one giant post. i intentionally posted a second time underneath to explain what i was trying to do and give you my real apology because i thought it was a more affective way to pose the question. as i wrote the post it was so matter of fact in my head. it was never meant to be mean. i was really just trying to use my mistake towards sam's advantage.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 19:49
Quoting cheryl42:
Nappi I know what you were saying. I read both posts. This is really between you and Gerry and has absolutely nothing to do with me. I have been reading Alice's comments so I am a little sensitive to some of the comments on the WFB. We have already lost SweetonDean (although I have tracked her down) and now it looks like Alice is done with posting reviews here as well. I am not the website police so I do apologize for over stepping my bounds. You and I have had some fun conversations and I hope to continue having them.


hey cheryl. i don't think you overstepped at all. as a matter of fact when i saw your post i went back to see if maybe my second post didn't go through. then i edited my second post so to make it clearer where i was coming from. i did that because of what you thought. i appreciate your input, because if you didn't see it the way i intended then maybe i should go back to explain myself. so thank you .

i don't want to beat this dead horse. i posted again to gerry in hopes that she understands that maliciousness was never my intent. i swear, there was no negative tone when i was writing the post. in my head it was sheer logic...which i guess could seem cold huh?

i only hope she forgives the misunderstandin g. i should've reviewed it before i posted. i did it right before work, which was my mistake, and then i was running late. i had no time to go over anything.

you know, i figured i would aggravate people, especially those who have an opposing view to mine..and i figured i'd get in trouble for that ....i really had no idea that the post would be interpreted with a negative tone towards it, because there was none as i was writing.

again, i apologize. i too enjoy our discussions and the last thing i want to do is have you or anyone else think me an ogre.

misperception and misunderstandin g...now i'm thinking like a winchester.

note : cheryl just a question...if i had originally written the first sentence of the post like this....

oh. i'm sorry, i didn't realize that i was breaking the rule...would you still have thought the post to be written in a negative tone?
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 19:49
Quote:
Nappi I know what you were saying. I read both posts. This is really between you and Gerry and has absolutely nothing to do with me. I have been reading Alice's comments so I am a little sensitive to some of the comments on the WFB. We have already lost SweetonDean (although I have tracked her down) and now it looks like Alice is done with posting reviews here as well. I am not the website police so I do apologize for over stepping my bounds. You and I have had some fun conversations and I hope to continue having them.
hey cheryl. i don't think you overstepped at all. as a matter of fact when i saw your post i went back to see if maybe my second post didn't go through. then i edited my second post so to make it clearer where i was coming from. i did that because of what you thought. i appreciate your input, because if you didn't see it the way i intended then maybe i should go back to explain myself. so thank you .

i don't want to beat this dead horse. i posted again to gerry in hopes that she understands that maliciousness was never my intent. i swear, there was no negative tone when i was writing the post. in my head it was sheer logic...which i guess could seem cold huh?

i only hope she forgives the misunderstandin g. i should've reviewed it before i posted. i did it right before work, which was my mistake, and then i was running late. i had no time to go over anything.

you know, i figured i would aggravate people, especially those who have an opposing view to mine..and i figured i'd get in trouble for that ....i really had no idea that the post would be interpreted with a negative tone towards it, because there was none as i was writing.

again, i apologize. i too enjoy our discussions and the last thing i want to do is have you or anyone else think me an ogre.

misperception and misunderstandin g...now i'm thinking like a winchester.

note : cheryl just a question...if i had originally written the first sentence of the post like this....

oh. i'm sorry, i didn't realize that i was breaking the rule...would you still have thought the post to be written in a negative tone?
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 20:19
Quoting nappi815:
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting nappi815:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.


Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.


gerry ,

i make you this solemn oath... there was no tone. that's why i hate that we can't sit in a room and talk. when you write, you have to be so careful..and even then the words don't match the tone in which you are intending. half the time you don't realize you're doing something wrong until someone points it out.

when i used the term ludicrous as the adjective to describe the notion i was referring to, i really didn't mean to insult. it was truly my mistake. i thought it was ok to use that word regarding a general idea. i didn't connect it with " opposing view".

so when you pointed out my mistake regarding the use of that word of course i felt bad and my first thought was i need to apologize but then i had a second thought. let me use my mistake as an advantage. i believe by now you are aware of my view on the whole sam/dean thing at the moment. :D . so i figured, this is an opportunity for me to make my point once again. compare the two situations...and ponder the question...where is the difference? i thought when reading the post one would stop and consider...well, there is validity here, so what is the difference?

God's honest, there was no intended tone in my second post-- the one in which i said i wouldn't say i'm sorry because i thought i was right. that i had done it for the right reason. i was doing it for sam, damned the consequence kind of thing. all i meant to do was point out both similar circumstances. when i was writing the post i wasn't angry or vengeful or anything that might make you think i was going out of my way to be rude and piss you off. why the hell would i want to do that? i love it here. i don't want to be banned from the site. plus to be honest it makes me feel good when people take the time to read what i have to say, i'm not going to jeopardize that. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. hell if i don't like a post, i won't read it. if i do read it and feel strongly enough to respond, i try my best to do it with a modicum of decorum and tact. lord knows i sometimes mess up...but when i do i always always apologize and i try very hard not to screw up again. obviously i failed on that .
you know you may not believe this, but i do love dean winchester, if i didn't i wouldn't even bother talking about him. if i didn't love him then i wouldn't get so frustrated when he does things that make me want to body slam him..although body slamming isn't really such a bad thing now is it? :D

thanks leah..i really meant no harm. i hope the following apologies have cleared that up :-)

i should have just made one giant post. i intentionally posted a second time underneath to explain what i was trying to do and give you my real apology because i thought it was a more affective way to pose the question. as i wrote the post it was so matter of fact in my head. it was never meant to be mean. i was really just trying to use my mistake towards sam's advantage.


Hi Nappi, I never for a moment thought you posted anything with malicious intent. I'm happy you like to post and discuss! I think it's very easy for any of us to get passionate and sometimes use loaded words without intending to be rude. All is well from my end. (-:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-02 20:19
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.
Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.
gerry ,

i make you this solemn oath... there was no tone. that's why i hate that we can't sit in a room and talk. when you write, you have to be so careful..and even then the words don't match the tone in which you are intending. half the time you don't realize you're doing something wrong until someone points it out.

when i used the term ludicrous as the adjective to describe the notion i was referring to, i really didn't mean to insult. it was truly my mistake. i thought it was ok to use that word regarding a general idea. i didn't connect it with " opposing view".

so when you pointed out my mistake regarding the use of that word of course i felt bad and my first thought was i need to apologize but then i had a second thought. let me use my mistake as an advantage. i believe by now you are aware of my view on the whole sam/dean thing at the moment. :D . so i figured, this is an opportunity for me to make my point once again. compare the two situations...and ponder the question...where is the difference? i thought when reading the post one would stop and consider...well, there is validity here, so what is the difference?

God's honest, there was no intended tone in my second post-- the one in which i said i wouldn't say i'm sorry because i thought i was right. that i had done it for the right reason. i was doing it for sam, damned the consequence kind of thing. all i meant to do was point out both similar circumstances. when i was writing the post i wasn't angry or vengeful or anything that might make you think i was going out of my way to be rude and piss you off. why the hell would i want to do that? i love it here. i don't want to be banned from the site. plus to be honest it makes me feel good when people take the time to read what i have to say, i'm not going to jeopardize that. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. hell if i don't like a post, i won't read it. if i do read it and feel strongly enough to respond, i try my best to do it with a modicum of decorum and tact. lord knows i sometimes mess up...but when i do i always always apologize and i try very hard not to screw up again. obviously i failed on that .
you know you may not believe this, but i do love dean winchester, if i didn't i wouldn't even bother talking about him. if i didn't love him then i wouldn't get so frustrated when he does things that make me want to body slam him..although body slamming isn't really such a bad thing now is it? :D

thanks leah..i really meant no harm. i hope the following apologies have cleared that up :-)

i should have just made one giant post. i intentionally posted a second time underneath to explain what i was trying to do and give you my real apology because i thought it was a more affective way to pose the question. as i wrote the post it was so matter of fact in my head. it was never meant to be mean. i was really just trying to use my mistake towards sam's advantage.
Hi Nappi, I never for a moment thought you posted anything with malicious intent. I'm happy you like to post and discuss! I think it's very easy for any of us to get passionate and sometimes use loaded words without intending to be rude. All is well from my end. (-:
Teresa Pezzino
# Teresa Pezzino 2014-03-02 20:37
"You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family."

This line seems to be a sticking point for several people. I think where one places the emphasis in it makes all the difference. Sam is not saying that everything that has gone wrong is because they are family but everything that has gone wrong between them is because they are family, because of the things they will do for each other, the lengths they will go to. Sam includes himself in this.
The angels seem to be the complete opposite, with all of the things they will NOT do for each other; for the way they will sacrifice each other for their cause without hesitation. Both sides have been going to extremes and Sam and Cas have an interesting parallel in that they are trying to restore some balance.
Teresa Pezzino
# Teresa Pezzino 2014-03-02 20:37
"You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family."

This line seems to be a sticking point for several people. I think where one places the emphasis in it makes all the difference. Sam is not saying that everything that has gone wrong is because they are family but everything that has gone wrong between them is because they are family, because of the things they will do for each other, the lengths they will go to. Sam includes himself in this.
The angels seem to be the complete opposite, with all of the things they will NOT do for each other; for the way they will sacrifice each other for their cause without hesitation. Both sides have been going to extremes and Sam and Cas have an interesting parallel in that they are trying to restore some balance.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-02 20:42
Quoting Teresa Pezzino:
"You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family."

This line seems to be a sticking point for several people. I think where one places the emphasis in it makes all the difference. Sam is not saying that everything that has gone wrong is because they are family but everything that has gone wrong between them is because they are family, because of the things they will do for each other, the lengths they will go to. Sam includes himself in this.
The angels seem to be the complete opposite, with all of the things they will NOT do for each other; for the way they will sacrifice each other for their cause without hesitation. Both sides have been going to extremes and Sam and Cas have an interesting parallel in that they are trying to restore some balance.


Do we think that Cas's changing is because of the grace he stole because that is not his original grace. I would think and maybe thinking about it to much that wouldn't this grace not being his have influence in different way? Cas's grace is in a bottle. So how can Cas be Cas without his same grace???
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-02 20:42
Quote:
"You say that like it's some sort of cure-all, like it can change the fact that everything that has ever gone wrong between us has been because we're family."

This line seems to be a sticking point for several people. I think where one places the emphasis in it makes all the difference. Sam is not saying that everything that has gone wrong is because they are family but everything that has gone wrong between them is because they are family, because of the things they will do for each other, the lengths they will go to. Sam includes himself in this.
The angels seem to be the complete opposite, with all of the things they will NOT do for each other; for the way they will sacrifice each other for their cause without hesitation. Both sides have been going to extremes and Sam and Cas have an interesting parallel in that they are trying to restore some balance.
Do we think that Cas's changing is because of the grace he stole because that is not his original grace. I would think and maybe thinking about it to much that wouldn't this grace not being his have influence in different way? Cas's grace is in a bottle. So how can Cas be Cas without his same grace???
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 20:59
suesbg9 Well Anna was still Anna without her grace but I see what you mean I had the same thought. Cas did tell Dean that he was an angel again but I think even he didn't know what it meant to take another angels grace. I have a feeling that getting his own grace back is going to play a part in restoring angels to heaven. I think it would help if we knew what having grace meant other than having powers.
Teresa Pezzino: If you change one word even the inflection of a sentence you completely change the meaning of the whole conversation. That is why whenever Sam and Dean are having a heart to heart I pay very close attention. What is being said and how it is being said is incredibly important.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-02 20:59
suesbg9 Well Anna was still Anna without her grace but I see what you mean I had the same thought. Cas did tell Dean that he was an angel again but I think even he didn't know what it meant to take another angels grace. I have a feeling that getting his own grace back is going to play a part in restoring angels to heaven. I think it would help if we knew what having grace meant other than having powers.
Teresa Pezzino: If you change one word even the inflection of a sentence you completely change the meaning of the whole conversation. That is why whenever Sam and Dean are having a heart to heart I pay very close attention. What is being said and how it is being said is incredibly important.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 21:15
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting nappi815:
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting nappi815:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.


Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.


gerry ,

i make you this solemn oath... there was no tone. that's why i hate that we can't sit in a room and talk. when you write, you have to be so careful..and even then the words don't match the tone in which you are intending. half the time you don't realize you're doing something wrong until someone points it out.

when i used the term ludicrous as the adjective to describe the notion i was referring to, i really didn't mean to insult. it was truly my mistake. i thought it was ok to use that word regarding a general idea. i didn't connect it with " opposing view".

so when you pointed out my mistake regarding the use of that word of course i felt bad and my first thought was i need to apologize but then i had a second thought. let me use my mistake as an advantage. i believe by now you are aware of my view on the whole sam/dean thing at the moment. :D . so i figured, this is an opportunity for me to make my point once again. compare the two situations...and ponder the question...where is the difference? i thought when reading the post one would stop and consider...well, there is validity here, so what is the difference?

God's honest, there was no intended tone in my second post-- the one in which i said i wouldn't say i'm sorry because i thought i was right. that i had done it for the right reason. i was doing it for sam, damned the consequence kind of thing. all i meant to do was point out both similar circumstances. when i was writing the post i wasn't angry or vengeful or anything that might make you think i was going out of my way to be rude and piss you off. why the hell would i want to do that? i love it here. i don't want to be banned from the site. plus to be honest it makes me feel good when people take the time to read what i have to say, i'm not going to jeopardize that. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. hell if i don't like a post, i won't read it. if i do read it and feel strongly enough to respond, i try my best to do it with a modicum of decorum and tact. lord knows i sometimes mess up...but when i do i always always apologize and i try very hard not to screw up again. obviously i failed on that .
you know you may not believe this, but i do love dean winchester, if i didn't i wouldn't even bother talking about him. if i didn't love him then i wouldn't get so frustrated when he does things that make me want to body slam him..although body slamming isn't really such a bad thing now is it? :D

thanks leah..i really meant no harm. i hope the following apologies have cleared that up :-)

i should have just made one giant post. i intentionally posted a second time underneath to explain what i was trying to do and give you my real apology because i thought it was a more affective way to pose the question. as i wrote the post it was so matter of fact in my head. it was never meant to be mean. i was really just trying to use my mistake towards sam's advantage.


Hi Nappi, I never for a moment thought you posted anything with malicious intent. I'm happy you like to post and discuss! I think it's very easy for any of us to get passionate and sometimes use loaded words without intending to be rude. All is well from my end. (-:


thank you.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-02 21:15
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
gerry,

i was just trying to make a point in the above post. i really do apologize for my mistake, it was unintentional. i was referring to a general notion and i didn't realize i had gone about it the wrong way.

contrary to the point i am trying to make in the above post, i will not intentionally do it again. again, i am really sorry. i try to be careful most times. sometimes you get lost in the passion :D

i do so hope you don't see me as an actual bitch. i know we don't agree on a lot, but if i come across in the wrong manner or say something i shouldn't i hope you know that it's not on purpose and of course i would own up to my mistake and apologize.
Hi Nappie, my comment was only on the tone of the post, not the content. I just want to make sure everyone feels welcome to comment, what ever position they hold.

We all get passionate about the show, which is a sign of how good it is! If we don't label each other's positions negatively and instead just engage with the discussion, it will keep a positive tone that makes discussion enjoyable.
gerry ,

i make you this solemn oath... there was no tone. that's why i hate that we can't sit in a room and talk. when you write, you have to be so careful..and even then the words don't match the tone in which you are intending. half the time you don't realize you're doing something wrong until someone points it out.

when i used the term ludicrous as the adjective to describe the notion i was referring to, i really didn't mean to insult. it was truly my mistake. i thought it was ok to use that word regarding a general idea. i didn't connect it with " opposing view".

so when you pointed out my mistake regarding the use of that word of course i felt bad and my first thought was i need to apologize but then i had a second thought. let me use my mistake as an advantage. i believe by now you are aware of my view on the whole sam/dean thing at the moment. :D . so i figured, this is an opportunity for me to make my point once again. compare the two situations...and ponder the question...where is the difference? i thought when reading the post one would stop and consider...well, there is validity here, so what is the difference?

God's honest, there was no intended tone in my second post-- the one in which i said i wouldn't say i'm sorry because i thought i was right. that i had done it for the right reason. i was doing it for sam, damned the consequence kind of thing. all i meant to do was point out both similar circumstances. when i was writing the post i wasn't angry or vengeful or anything that might make you think i was going out of my way to be rude and piss you off. why the hell would i want to do that? i love it here. i don't want to be banned from the site. plus to be honest it makes me feel good when people take the time to read what i have to say, i'm not going to jeopardize that. i certainly don't go out of my way to piss off complete strangers. hell if i don't like a post, i won't read it. if i do read it and feel strongly enough to respond, i try my best to do it with a modicum of decorum and tact. lord knows i sometimes mess up...but when i do i always always apologize and i try very hard not to screw up again. obviously i failed on that .
you know you may not believe this, but i do love dean winchester, if i didn't i wouldn't even bother talking about him. if i didn't love him then i wouldn't get so frustrated when he does things that make me want to body slam him..although body slamming isn't really such a bad thing now is it? :D

thanks leah..i really meant no harm. i hope the following apologies have cleared that up :-)

i should have just made one giant post. i intentionally posted a second time underneath to explain what i was trying to do and give you my real apology because i thought it was a more affective way to pose the question. as i wrote the post it was so matter of fact in my head. it was never meant to be mean. i was really just trying to use my mistake towards sam's advantage.
Hi Nappi, I never for a moment thought you posted anything with malicious intent. I'm happy you like to post and discuss! I think it's very easy for any of us to get passionate and sometimes use loaded words without intending to be rude. All is well from my end. (-:
thank you.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-03 02:31
@117 & 118

Sorry, Jerry but that doesn’t work for me. I know the notion is that if it wasn’t for the Winchesters the Apocalypse would have gone ahead as planned but if you change one piece of the plan then conceivably you change every piece. Other vessels might have been stronger etc than Sam and Dean or might have chosen differently, or held out longer or thwarted the plan with less casualties etc. Free will is not just for the Winchesters, family and bond is not just for the Winchesters. The Apocalypse went ahead at the time that it did, in the manner that it did because of Sam and Dean, and the choices they made for family.

In relation to the free will of the characters, that’s a little murkier. For me, one character cannot have free will while another character is taking his free will off him. I’m not sure how Sam can wrest his own free will back from Dean here. He can shout and explain and plead and whatever but he cannot physically make Dean not do it. So perhaps the one who needs the recap lesson on free will is Dean. Sam did question last season if free will is just for Dean, so far that’s proving to be true.

Castiel being alive is certainly an upside, for Castiel. Kevin being dead is a downside, especially for Kevin. One doesn’t balance out the other. Sam being alive at the end of 9.01 is an upside, for Dean.but the lives that will be lost as a result of not closing the gates of hell will be a downside. What makes Sam more important than those countless, faceless people? I was hoping that, last week, we’d hear Mrs. Tran ask Dean something along the lines of ‘What gives you the right to decide that your brother is more important than my son?’ This might have given Dean food for thought; instead it seems as if we’re in the middle of another giant whitewash.

Dean might have framed the desire to close the gates of hell as payback but I don’t feel it realistic that this was their sole motivator, at least not for Sam. He’s been driven by payback in the past, and he’s gotten burned badly. When people decide to undertake a course of action they are generally motivated by more than one thing and like Sam said in Sacrifice ‘Other people will die if I don’t finish this’ so he was also thinking about saving and not payback. Would it have involved a sacrifice? Yes, but they’ve been doing that since 1.2 when Sam put himself between the wendigo and that family. There’s really no difference between that action then and the intention in Sacrifice, the action was necessary to save lives.

I agree that Sam has realisations to make, and key among them should be that he should not let himself be defined by what others, including Dean, think of him. If Dean thinks little of him, that’s his problem, Sam doesn‘t have to make it his. He needs to realise that he shouldn’t let himself be defined by what he has done in the past, because not only has he more than made up for his mistakes, but his actions also fixed the mistakes made by Dean and the angels. He also needs to realise that those who are judging him poorly have done the exact same thing as him, and he doesn’t think poorly of them so why think poorly of himself. He's got to stop accept sole responsibility for things that went wrong, and start letting others put sole responsibility on him. He’s really got to start standing up to others, especially Dean, and sometimes that will mean not doing what Dean wants. If he values himself, and if Dean values him and not just his life, then he’ll be able to do that.

You mentioned their personal and professional relationship in relation to ‘gone wrong between us’ quotation. These relationships can’t be separated because their professional and personal lives are so entwined. Something goes wrong in their personal lives it’s has consequences in their professional life.

However, if we just look at their personal relationship, can we honestly say that it’s a good one? Sam and Dean have brought more hurt and misery to each other than anyone or anything else combined. When was the last time Sam and Dean actually enjoyed each other’s company? We could be talking seasons ago. The last time we saw Sam laugh, an honest to goodness laugh, was with the much maligned Amelia, prior to that, who knows? When was the last time Dean genuinely confided in Sam, season 4, or was it after he killed Amy? Instead Dean chooses to turn to Castiel and Bobby to talk things out with. Sorry, but I’m struggling to see how their personal relationship is a positive or close one. If Sam and Dean were a couple they’d have broken up a long time ago, and they, their relationship and everyone else would be better because of it. At the moment, Sam and Dean are living that Rhianna and Eminem song.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-03 02:31
@117 & 118

Sorry, Jerry but that doesn’t work for me. I know the notion is that if it wasn’t for the Winchesters the Apocalypse would have gone ahead as planned but if you change one piece of the plan then conceivably you change every piece. Other vessels might have been stronger etc than Sam and Dean or might have chosen differently, or held out longer or thwarted the plan with less casualties etc. Free will is not just for the Winchesters, family and bond is not just for the Winchesters. The Apocalypse went ahead at the time that it did, in the manner that it did because of Sam and Dean, and the choices they made for family.

In relation to the free will of the characters, that’s a little murkier. For me, one character cannot have free will while another character is taking his free will off him. I’m not sure how Sam can wrest his own free will back from Dean here. He can shout and explain and plead and whatever but he cannot physically make Dean not do it. So perhaps the one who needs the recap lesson on free will is Dean. Sam did question last season if free will is just for Dean, so far that’s proving to be true.

Castiel being alive is certainly an upside, for Castiel. Kevin being dead is a downside, especially for Kevin. One doesn’t balance out the other. Sam being alive at the end of 9.01 is an upside, for Dean.but the lives that will be lost as a result of not closing the gates of hell will be a downside. What makes Sam more important than those countless, faceless people? I was hoping that, last week, we’d hear Mrs. Tran ask Dean something along the lines of ‘What gives you the right to decide that your brother is more important than my son?’ This might have given Dean food for thought; instead it seems as if we’re in the middle of another giant whitewash.

Dean might have framed the desire to close the gates of hell as payback but I don’t feel it realistic that this was their sole motivator, at least not for Sam. He’s been driven by payback in the past, and he’s gotten burned badly. When people decide to undertake a course of action they are generally motivated by more than one thing and like Sam said in Sacrifice ‘Other people will die if I don’t finish this’ so he was also thinking about saving and not payback. Would it have involved a sacrifice? Yes, but they’ve been doing that since 1.2 when Sam put himself between the wendigo and that family. There’s really no difference between that action then and the intention in Sacrifice, the action was necessary to save lives.

I agree that Sam has realisations to make, and key among them should be that he should not let himself be defined by what others, including Dean, think of him. If Dean thinks little of him, that’s his problem, Sam doesn‘t have to make it his. He needs to realise that he shouldn’t let himself be defined by what he has done in the past, because not only has he more than made up for his mistakes, but his actions also fixed the mistakes made by Dean and the angels. He also needs to realise that those who are judging him poorly have done the exact same thing as him, and he doesn’t think poorly of them so why think poorly of himself. He's got to stop accept sole responsibility for things that went wrong, and start letting others put sole responsibility on him. He’s really got to start standing up to others, especially Dean, and sometimes that will mean not doing what Dean wants. If he values himself, and if Dean values him and not just his life, then he’ll be able to do that.

You mentioned their personal and professional relationship in relation to ‘gone wrong between us’ quotation. These relationships can’t be separated because their professional and personal lives are so entwined. Something goes wrong in their personal lives it’s has consequences in their professional life.

However, if we just look at their personal relationship, can we honestly say that it’s a good one? Sam and Dean have brought more hurt and misery to each other than anyone or anything else combined. When was the last time Sam and Dean actually enjoyed each other’s company? We could be talking seasons ago. The last time we saw Sam laugh, an honest to goodness laugh, was with the much maligned Amelia, prior to that, who knows? When was the last time Dean genuinely confided in Sam, season 4, or was it after he killed Amy? Instead Dean chooses to turn to Castiel and Bobby to talk things out with. Sorry, but I’m struggling to see how their personal relationship is a positive or close one. If Sam and Dean were a couple they’d have broken up a long time ago, and they, their relationship and everyone else would be better because of it. At the moment, Sam and Dean are living that Rhianna and Eminem song.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-03 02:40
Cont.

In relation to feeling tainted, hmmm, does Sam feel tainted because of what he did (even as a child) or did he do what he did because he felt tainted? First of all, children aren’t born feeling a certain way. A blind person doesn’t know that they’re blind until they’re told, and people start treating them as a blind person. Sam might have been tainted when he was a child, but the idea that he was would certainly have been reinforced by their lifestyle and the words and actions, however unintentional, of John and Dean. Sorry to say it, but they would have played a huge role in this Sam feeling like this, whether it be from the constant lies or not trusting him when he was younger (probably because he was younger) or feeing he wasn't the same as them because he saw things different to them, to seeing there could be goo in monsters, to only wanting him to hunt, to throwing him out of the family when he went to Stanford etc etc. All this leads into the circle of ‘I’m tainted because I’m different to my father and Dean’ and ‘I’m different to my father and Dean because I’m tainted.’ All the calling of ‘freak’, even in jest, would have fed into that. All the not being allowed to walk home by himself would feed into that because Sam would be asking himself is it because he's not trusted, because he’s tainted. Dean went to hell because Sam was ‘tainted’, the Apocalypse started because Sam was ‘tainted’, nothing to do with the actions of others etc etc. And you know what the worst thing is, not a single character has reassured Sam that what happened wasn't because he was tainted (so it’s really no wonder he feels that way).

In relation to Dean reaffirming to Sam about the centrality of their bond, I don’t think that he did. Even in the aftermath of the church when Sam was hale and hearty again, Dean hasn’t addressed a single issue Sam raised in the church, he simply denied that was Sam was saying was true. However hours before that, and for the entire first half of the season (and even for seasons before that), Dean was doing what Sam said. He was turning to a vampire and an angel, he didn’t trust Sam, and went out of his way to show Sam that he didn’t trust him. Dean might not have seen what he was doing as a betrayal or whatnot, but if Sam considers it as such then that’s what’s important and that is what needs to be addressed. Dean brought up Sam choosing a demon over him but Sam asked Dean to go with them and Dean said no. Sam went with Ruby because he had to, staying behind with Dean would have led to Lilith breaking the final seal (as they both believed). How is this betrayal? (I often can't help but wonder if it's Sam's trust that Dean wants or Sam's obedience.) However, it’s interpreted by Dean as ‘You chose a demon over me’ and it drives a season (and beyond). Sam has to change, to apologise, to pay for what he did. Dean does the exact same thing as Sam, and more than once, and he simply denies that he did it.

And, for me, it seems that we're facing into the same thing again.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2014-03-03 02:40
Cont.

In relation to feeling tainted, hmmm, does Sam feel tainted because of what he did (even as a child) or did he do what he did because he felt tainted? First of all, children aren’t born feeling a certain way. A blind person doesn’t know that they’re blind until they’re told, and people start treating them as a blind person. Sam might have been tainted when he was a child, but the idea that he was would certainly have been reinforced by their lifestyle and the words and actions, however unintentional, of John and Dean. Sorry to say it, but they would have played a huge role in this Sam feeling like this, whether it be from the constant lies or not trusting him when he was younger (probably because he was younger) or feeing he wasn't the same as them because he saw things different to them, to seeing there could be goo in monsters, to only wanting him to hunt, to throwing him out of the family when he went to Stanford etc etc. All this leads into the circle of ‘I’m tainted because I’m different to my father and Dean’ and ‘I’m different to my father and Dean because I’m tainted.’ All the calling of ‘freak’, even in jest, would have fed into that. All the not being allowed to walk home by himself would feed into that because Sam would be asking himself is it because he's not trusted, because he’s tainted. Dean went to hell because Sam was ‘tainted’, the Apocalypse started because Sam was ‘tainted’, nothing to do with the actions of others etc etc. And you know what the worst thing is, not a single character has reassured Sam that what happened wasn't because he was tainted (so it’s really no wonder he feels that way).

In relation to Dean reaffirming to Sam about the centrality of their bond, I don’t think that he did. Even in the aftermath of the church when Sam was hale and hearty again, Dean hasn’t addressed a single issue Sam raised in the church, he simply denied that was Sam was saying was true. However hours before that, and for the entire first half of the season (and even for seasons before that), Dean was doing what Sam said. He was turning to a vampire and an angel, he didn’t trust Sam, and went out of his way to show Sam that he didn’t trust him. Dean might not have seen what he was doing as a betrayal or whatnot, but if Sam considers it as such then that’s what’s important and that is what needs to be addressed. Dean brought up Sam choosing a demon over him but Sam asked Dean to go with them and Dean said no. Sam went with Ruby because he had to, staying behind with Dean would have led to Lilith breaking the final seal (as they both believed). How is this betrayal? (I often can't help but wonder if it's Sam's trust that Dean wants or Sam's obedience.) However, it’s interpreted by Dean as ‘You chose a demon over me’ and it drives a season (and beyond). Sam has to change, to apologise, to pay for what he did. Dean does the exact same thing as Sam, and more than once, and he simply denies that he did it.

And, for me, it seems that we're facing into the same thing again.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 05:59
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting nappi815:
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting JuliaG:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.


I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.

just an observation, but all dean ever does when he's angry at sam is lash out or punch him in the face. first half of s8 ringing a bell for anyone but me? and look what that did for sam..he was ready to die for dean rather than disappoint him.
sam who has been violated in both mind and body, is not allowed to lash out in anger at dean, because chuck forbid, dean might get his feelings hurt or even recognize how truly far he's gone this time. sam's not allowed to keep silent, you know actually try to process and reconcile what dean did to him with the fact that sam loves his brother very much. i think sam needs an operation manual. it just seems that sam has certain parameters he's supposed to follow, where dean pretty much is allowed to behave as he wills.
sam told dean he broke his trust. they are damaged not broken. sam is still there. sam has shown no signs that love is lost. dean is hurt, dean calls out to him, sam is there by his side. sam has made every attempt to get dean to open up to fix what's broken. dean just hasn't stepped up to the plate. that's not sam's fault. it's an unfair statement to lay blame the brother's damaged bond on sam's shoulders. not when a simple i'm sorry is really all that's necessary to start the healing process.


I think what getting in the way of the healing process is a clear definition of what the issues are for both guys.

Dean is struggling with the idea of apologizing for saving Sam`s life, but he does know he should have told Sam immediately and let him decide. He was going to do that as soon as they left the hospital and he was going to do it again after the fight with the goddess. He knows there is something to apologize for.

But Sam just opened up that something to include Dean`s entire definition of family and love and he`s being blamed for everything that`s gone wrong between them. I think Dean is struggling because he knows he did something wrong, but he doesn`t agree with the way Sam has framed it. I think if the guys could talk it out, they`d find the core of what they need to let go and what they should hang on to.

I don`t think Sam is responsible for damaging the bond. I just think right now the control for the conversation happening is in his court because he is the one who framed the discussion in the terms that the two are not brothers any more and he`s .

The difference in our viewpoint is Dean is not apologizing for playing a huge part in having Sam possessed.He knows what he has done wrong.When he agreed to gadreel's plans he knew he was doing something which Sam would not want any part in i.e possession.
Dean does not have to agree with the way Sam has framed it..He has to apologize for what he has done wrong.Sam has done his part,He has called out Dean.Now it is Dean's part,not to grovel,not to agree with Sam unconditionally ..but to apologize for the part in deception he played.Unless Dean does that for me the brotherhood is not worth saving.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 05:59
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Gerry, Sam already knows what it it feels like to have Dean turn away from the relationship. We saw it during Seasons 4 and especially 5.
I would say we saw Dean`s version of turning away, which means he couldn`t make that last, because he`s been shaped to look after Sam. The End was the 4th episode of season five and Dean knew by then he had to reach out to Sam. In Fallen Idols, he was ready to say,

`Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal.`

and then:

DEAN
Point is, I was so worried about watching your every move that I didn't see what it was actually doing to you.

Dean has tried a couple of times to pull back when he and Sam have had troubles, but the over all tension between the two has been Dean holding on tight and Sam pushing for autonomy, not Sam worried Dean might walk away from him.

So I think if he actually really feels he`s been successful in convincing Dean they no longer have that close brother bond, it will be a shift and since I don`t believe Sam really at heart wants Dean to think their bond is broken, I think it won`t feel good.

I do think the story is showing both guys have work to do, not just Dean. Sam`s anger and hurt is understandable, but lashing out or the silent treatment is unlikely to be the road to healing. Dean needs to understand their bond doesn`t mean any cost is worth paying to save Sam, and Sam needs to understand the bond is worth protecting and that he needs to decide what he wants - life or death, normal life or hunting. He can`t have a foot in each camp.
just an observation, but all dean ever does when he's angry at sam is lash out or punch him in the face. first half of s8 ringing a bell for anyone but me? and look what that did for sam..he was ready to die for dean rather than disappoint him.
sam who has been violated in both mind and body, is not allowed to lash out in anger at dean, because chuck forbid, dean might get his feelings hurt or even recognize how truly far he's gone this time. sam's not allowed to keep silent, you know actually try to process and reconcile what dean did to him with the fact that sam loves his brother very much. i think sam needs an operation manual. it just seems that sam has certain parameters he's supposed to follow, where dean pretty much is allowed to behave as he wills.
sam told dean he broke his trust. they are damaged not broken. sam is still there. sam has shown no signs that love is lost. dean is hurt, dean calls out to him, sam is there by his side. sam has made every attempt to get dean to open up to fix what's broken. dean just hasn't stepped up to the plate. that's not sam's fault. it's an unfair statement to lay blame the brother's damaged bond on sam's shoulders. not when a simple i'm sorry is really all that's necessary to start the healing process.
I think what getting in the way of the healing process is a clear definition of what the issues are for both guys.

Dean is struggling with the idea of apologizing for saving Sam`s life, but he does know he should have told Sam immediately and let him decide. He was going to do that as soon as they left the hospital and he was going to do it again after the fight with the goddess. He knows there is something to apologize for.

But Sam just opened up that something to include Dean`s entire definition of family and love and he`s being blamed for everything that`s gone wrong between them. I think Dean is struggling because he knows he did something wrong, but he doesn`t agree with the way Sam has framed it. I think if the guys could talk it out, they`d find the core of what they need to let go and what they should hang on to.

I don`t think Sam is responsible for damaging the bond. I just think right now the control for the conversation happening is in his court because he is the one who framed the discussion in the terms that the two are not brothers any more and he`s .
The difference in our viewpoint is Dean is not apologizing for playing a huge part in having Sam possessed.He knows what he has done wrong.When he agreed to gadreel's plans he knew he was doing something which Sam would not want any part in i.e possession.
Dean does not have to agree with the way Sam has framed it..He has to apologize for what he has done wrong.Sam has done his part,He has called out Dean.Now it is Dean's part,not to grovel,not to agree with Sam unconditionally ..but to apologize for the part in deception he played.Unless Dean does that for me the brotherhood is not worth saving.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 07:29
Dean is struggling with the idea of apologizing for saving Sam`s life, but he does know he should have told Sam immediately and let him decide. He was going to do that as soon as they left the hospital and he was going to do it again after the fight with the goddess. He knows there is something to apologize for.

But Sam just opened up that something to include Dean`s entire definition of family and love and he`s being blamed for everything that`s gone wrong between them. I think Dean is struggling because he knows he did something wrong, but he doesn`t agree with the way Sam has framed it. I think if the guys could talk it out, they`d find the core of what they need to let go and what they should hang on to.


Dean does not have to agree with the way Sam has framed it..He has to apologize for what he has done wrong.Sam has done his part,He has called out Dean.Now it is Dean's part,not to grovel,not to agree with Sam unconditionally ..but to apologize for the part in deception he played.Unless Dean does that for me the brotherhood is not worth saving.

i don't agree with the whole this is the way sam framed it argument.
as was pointed out, dean knew before he made the decision in that hospital that sam wouldn't want it. there's no arguing that because dean admitted it. he knew when sam found out the truth he'd be upset. as per the norm, i don't think dean truly does know his brother the way he thinks because i don't think he expected sam to ever utter the words...i can't trust you. something is broken. i'm sure dean would understand sam was angry, but as per the usual history in regards to sam's anger at dean, dean would just guilt sam into forgiveness. he's done it before. he did it with the demon deal,
don't you get mad at me, i had to, it's my job.
he did it in the mentalists, you can be mad but don't be a bitch. he actually got sam to feel wrong about being angry that dean killed amy behind his back and lied to him about it. sam was angry at dean for lying to him in s2 and dean pushed it onto his father..i had to , cuz it was dad. dean has no problem feeling guilty for his actions but he does seem to have one taking responsibility for them.
it also seems to me that dean has no problem punishing sam for sam's crimes against him, but when it comes to sam being angry and hurt. when it comes to sam reacting to his anger and hurt at his brother, dean won't stand for it. dean can dish it out, but he just can't take it. that's been a problem in their unbalanced relationship.
i digress, the whole framing idea. i'm not buying into that because that conversation with sam and dean came episodes after sam found out the truth.
i've said it before....the minute sam found out the truth, dean should've admitted where he went wrong and apologized...in stead, he walked away from his brother.
i know there's an echo in here ...but when sam raised lucifer and dean walked into that church room and they killed ruby...sam looked dean dead in the eyes and said...i'm sorry. first thing he did. second thing he did. third thing he did.
dean's instant i'm sorry may not have fixed things at that moment but it would've at least told sam that dean actually cared about his feelings.

dean is the one who needs to step up to the plate..as of now he's benched himself.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 07:29
Dean is struggling with the idea of apologizing for saving Sam`s life, but he does know he should have told Sam immediately and let him decide. He was going to do that as soon as they left the hospital and he was going to do it again after the fight with the goddess. He knows there is something to apologize for.

But Sam just opened up that something to include Dean`s entire definition of family and love and he`s being blamed for everything that`s gone wrong between them. I think Dean is struggling because he knows he did something wrong, but he doesn`t agree with the way Sam has framed it. I think if the guys could talk it out, they`d find the core of what they need to let go and what they should hang on to.


Dean does not have to agree with the way Sam has framed it..He has to apologize for what he has done wrong.Sam has done his part,He has called out Dean.Now it is Dean's part,not to grovel,not to agree with Sam unconditionally ..but to apologize for the part in deception he played.Unless Dean does that for me the brotherhood is not worth saving.

i don't agree with the whole this is the way sam framed it argument.
as was pointed out, dean knew before he made the decision in that hospital that sam wouldn't want it. there's no arguing that because dean admitted it. he knew when sam found out the truth he'd be upset. as per the norm, i don't think dean truly does know his brother the way he thinks because i don't think he expected sam to ever utter the words...i can't trust you. something is broken. i'm sure dean would understand sam was angry, but as per the usual history in regards to sam's anger at dean, dean would just guilt sam into forgiveness. he's done it before. he did it with the demon deal,
don't you get mad at me, i had to, it's my job.
he did it in the mentalists, you can be mad but don't be a bitch. he actually got sam to feel wrong about being angry that dean killed amy behind his back and lied to him about it. sam was angry at dean for lying to him in s2 and dean pushed it onto his father..i had to , cuz it was dad. dean has no problem feeling guilty for his actions but he does seem to have one taking responsibility for them.
it also seems to me that dean has no problem punishing sam for sam's crimes against him, but when it comes to sam being angry and hurt. when it comes to sam reacting to his anger and hurt at his brother, dean won't stand for it. dean can dish it out, but he just can't take it. that's been a problem in their unbalanced relationship.
i digress, the whole framing idea. i'm not buying into that because that conversation with sam and dean came episodes after sam found out the truth.
i've said it before....the minute sam found out the truth, dean should've admitted where he went wrong and apologized...in stead, he walked away from his brother.
i know there's an echo in here ...but when sam raised lucifer and dean walked into that church room and they killed ruby...sam looked dean dead in the eyes and said...i'm sorry. first thing he did. second thing he did. third thing he did.
dean's instant i'm sorry may not have fixed things at that moment but it would've at least told sam that dean actually cared about his feelings.

dean is the one who needs to step up to the plate..as of now he's benched himself.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-03 08:41
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
@117 & 118

Sorry, Jerry but that doesn’t work for me. I know the notion is that if it wasn’t for the Winchesters the Apocalypse would have gone ahead as planned but if you change one piece of the plan then conceivably you change every piece. Other vessels might have been stronger etc than Sam and Dean or might have chosen differently, or held out longer or thwarted the plan with less casualties etc. Free will is not just for the Winchesters, family and bond is not just for the Winchesters.



That's OK, we can agree to disagree. :-) I think the way the Winchesters were raised was tragic and yet forged a bond that was necessary to withstand Lucifer and Gabriel. I think the Winchesters were the specific piece necessary to the end of the tale we got, and no other potential players would have been able to accomplish what they did, because it was their bond that was the wild card that couldn't be anticipated or controlled. As Jodie said this season, they're special.

Looking forward to tomorrow's episode!
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-03 08:41
Quote:
@117 & 118

Sorry, Jerry but that doesn’t work for me. I know the notion is that if it wasn’t for the Winchesters the Apocalypse would have gone ahead as planned but if you change one piece of the plan then conceivably you change every piece. Other vessels might have been stronger etc than Sam and Dean or might have chosen differently, or held out longer or thwarted the plan with less casualties etc. Free will is not just for the Winchesters, family and bond is not just for the Winchesters.
That's OK, we can agree to disagree. :-) I think the way the Winchesters were raised was tragic and yet forged a bond that was necessary to withstand Lucifer and Gabriel. I think the Winchesters were the specific piece necessary to the end of the tale we got, and no other potential players would have been able to accomplish what they did, because it was their bond that was the wild card that couldn't be anticipated or controlled. As Jodie said this season, they're special.

Looking forward to tomorrow's episode!
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 09:18
Quoting nappi815:

i don't agree with the whole this is the way sam framed it argument.
as was pointed out, dean knew before he made the decision in that hospital that sam wouldn't want it. there's no arguing that because dean admitted it. he knew when sam found out the truth he'd be upset. as per the norm, i don't think dean truly does know his brother the way he thinks because i don't think he expected sam to ever utter the words...i can't trust you. something is broken. i'm sure dean would understand sam was angry, but as per the usual history in regards to sam's anger at dean, dean would just guilt sam into forgiveness. he's done it before. he did it with the demon deal,
don't you get mad at me, i had to, it's my job.
he did it in the mentalists, you can be mad but don't be a bitch. he actually got sam to feel wrong about being angry that dean killed amy behind his back and lied to him about it. sam was angry at dean for lying to him in s2 and dean pushed it onto his father..i had to , cuz it was dad. dean has no problem feeling guilty for his actions but he does seem to have one taking responsibility for them.
it also seems to me that dean has no problem punishing sam for sam's crimes against him, but when it comes to sam being angry and hurt. when it comes to sam reacting to his anger and hurt at his brother, dean won't stand for it. dean can dish it out, but he just can't take it. that's been a problem in their unbalanced relationship.
i digress, the whole framing idea. i'm not buying into that because that conversation with sam and dean came episodes after sam found out the truth.
i've said it before....the minute sam found out the truth, dean should've admitted where he went wrong and apologized...instead, he walked away from his brother.
i know there's an echo in here ...but when sam raised lucifer and dean walked into that church room and they killed ruby...sam looked dean dead in the eyes and said...i'm sorry. first thing he did. second thing he did. third thing he did.
dean's instant i'm sorry may not have fixed things at that moment but it would've at least told sam that dean actually cared about his feelings.

dean is the one who needs to step up to the plate..as of now he's benched himself.


I think the real confession that Dean was able to do was the one in the bunker before Kevin was killed when he thought he was talking to Sam and before the mark. That was genuine unfortunately by then Gadreel had taken over and knew what Dean was going to do and played sam and his reaction. I think after all that happend with trying to get Gadreel out and such and how Dean listened to what Crowley had said about Dean being poison and such he believes that and he has not been able to bring himself to say the same apology he said in the storage room. Everything he said there he knew he was wrong and such and knew Sam would not want this but did it anyways and said you can kick my a**. But for some reason he believes he did the right thing for right reason and is not going to change. Sam is alive; and no matter how they work together brothers not brothers they are working together. And now he is giving Sam his space until he wants to talk it out. When sam walked away Dean had to figure he was not ready to talk and he is not going to go knocking on the door to try to talk. Maybe space was best thing since seeing Kevin. Everyone can say Dean has to make the first move but Sam has to be ready to hear Deans apologies. If Sam is not ready then what is the point in Dean to try if Sam does not want to hear it yet? It will be pointless to try to apologize to someone who is not ready for it. But the upside of it Dean is working with Sam and Sam is alive. It might be hard for Dean since they are not brothers working on case just partners but to him Sam is alive.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 09:18
i don't agree with the whole this is the way sam framed it argument.
as was pointed out, dean knew before he made the decision in that hospital that sam wouldn't want it. there's no arguing that because dean admitted it. he knew when sam found out the truth he'd be upset. as per the norm, i don't think dean truly does know his brother the way he thinks because i don't think he expected sam to ever utter the words...i can't trust you. something is broken. i'm sure dean would understand sam was angry, but as per the usual history in regards to sam's anger at dean, dean would just guilt sam into forgiveness. he's done it before. he did it with the demon deal,
don't you get mad at me, i had to, it's my job.
he did it in the mentalists, you can be mad but don't be a bitch. he actually got sam to feel wrong about being angry that dean killed amy behind his back and lied to him about it. sam was angry at dean for lying to him in s2 and dean pushed it onto his father..i had to , cuz it was dad. dean has no problem feeling guilty for his actions but he does seem to have one taking responsibility for them.
it also seems to me that dean has no problem punishing sam for sam's crimes against him, but when it comes to sam being angry and hurt. when it comes to sam reacting to his anger and hurt at his brother, dean won't stand for it. dean can dish it out, but he just can't take it. that's been a problem in their unbalanced relationship.
i digress, the whole framing idea. i'm not buying into that because that conversation with sam and dean came episodes after sam found out the truth.
i've said it before....the minute sam found out the truth, dean should've admitted where he went wrong and apologized...in stead, he walked away from his brother.
i know there's an echo in here ...but when sam raised lucifer and dean walked into that church room and they killed ruby...sam looked dean dead in the eyes and said...i'm sorry. first thing he did. second thing he did. third thing he did.
dean's instant i'm sorry may not have fixed things at that moment but it would've at least told sam that dean actually cared about his feelings.

dean is the one who needs to step up to the plate..as of now he's benched himself.

I think the real confession that Dean was able to do was the one in the bunker before Kevin was killed when he thought he was talking to Sam and before the mark. That was genuine unfortunately by then Gadreel had taken over and knew what Dean was going to do and played sam and his reaction. I think after all that happend with trying to get Gadreel out and such and how Dean listened to what Crowley had said about Dean being poison and such he believes that and he has not been able to bring himself to say the same apology he said in the storage room. Everything he said there he knew he was wrong and such and knew Sam would not want this but did it anyways and said you can kick my a**. But for some reason he believes he did the right thing for right reason and is not going to change. Sam is alive; and no matter how they work together brothers not brothers they are working together. And now he is giving Sam his space until he wants to talk it out. When sam walked away Dean had to figure he was not ready to talk and he is not going to go knocking on the door to try to talk. Maybe space was best thing since seeing Kevin. Everyone can say Dean has to make the first move but Sam has to be ready to hear Deans apologies. If Sam is not ready then what is the point in Dean to try if Sam does not want to hear it yet? It will be pointless to try to apologize to someone who is not ready for it. But the upside of it Dean is working with Sam and Sam is alive. It might be hard for Dean since they are not brothers working on case just partners but to him Sam is alive.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 12:55
DEAN
I got to tell you some stuff fast. It's gonna piss you off.
SAM
Okay.
DEAN
Those trials really messed you up.
SAM
Yes, I know that, Dea—
DEAN (hurriedly)
No, you don't. I mean messed you up like almost dead. No more birthdays, dust to dust. Well, that messed me up, so I made a move, okay, a tough move about you without talking it over because you were in a coma.
SAM
Wait, what? When?
DEAN
You were in the hospital, okay, and they said you were gonna die.
SAM
What did you do?
DEAN
(pauses, mouth working speechlessly for a moment)
I let an angel in.
SAM
In what?
DEAN
In you. He said he could heal you and he is.
SAM
He's still in me? Wait. (laughs) That's impossible, Dean. That couldn't happen. I never invited him in.
DEAN
I tricked you into saying yes. It seemed like the only way.
SAM
(sighs) So... Again. You thought I couldn't handle something, so you took over!
DEAN
No, I did what I had to do! You would've never agreed to it, and you would've died.
SAM
Well, maybe I would've liked the choice, at least.
DEAN
We can do this – later. You can – you can kick my ass all you want. Right now, we got bigger problems.

this is the confession from dean to sam/gad. no where in this confession was there an apology. there was no sam i'm sorry, i know what i did went against everything you believed in, i know i took the decision away from you and i made it mine. oh hell, it didn't even have to go past i'm sorry sam. dean just told sam he did what he had to do. but he did what he had to do for himself because as he confessed to sam , he was messed up because sam was. but i get it. dean loves sam and can't be without him. here's the thing, he didn't trust in sam enough to let him choose for himself. he believed sam would never allow for possession so he tricked him. his reason that . he would've died. sam's reply was that he would've at least liked the choice. dean took sam's choice away from him for one thing and that goes back to dean controlling sam. the second problem here is that dean didn't trust sam enough to give him the opportunity to agree to dean's method of saving sam. he didn't trust that sam would love him enough to say yes on his own. it goes back to the whole dean not believing in his brother again. in the man who knew too much, sam put together his broken psyche because he wouldn't leave his brother alone out there. he constantly goes back to hunting with dean, even when dean gave sam an out to go back to amelia sam chose to stay with dean. the point there is that dean gave sam the choice and when given the choice, sam chooses dean. when dean/gad said there aint no me if there aint no you, sam said yes..yes to who he thought was his brother, yes to choosing to follow dean. again, sam believing dean gave him the choice. he trusted in him. now sam learns that dean didnt actually trust him to make the choice, because it wasn't the real dean who said those words, it was an angel pretending to be dean.. so it goes back to sam's trust issue with his brother. the issue where he believes dean doesn't have any actual faith in his brother.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 12:55
DEAN
I got to tell you some stuff fast. It's gonna piss you off.
SAM
Okay.
DEAN
Those trials really messed you up.
SAM
Yes, I know that, Dea—
DEAN (hurriedly)
No, you don't. I mean messed you up like almost dead. No more birthdays, dust to dust. Well, that messed me up, so I made a move, okay, a tough move about you without talking it over because you were in a coma.
SAM
Wait, what? When?
DEAN
You were in the hospital, okay, and they said you were gonna die.
SAM
What did you do?
DEAN
(pauses, mouth working speechlessly for a moment)
I let an angel in.
SAM
In what?
DEAN
In you. He said he could heal you and he is.
SAM
He's still in me? Wait. (laughs) That's impossible, Dean. That couldn't happen. I never invited him in.
DEAN
I tricked you into saying yes. It seemed like the only way.
SAM
(sighs) So... Again. You thought I couldn't handle something, so you took over!
DEAN
No, I did what I had to do! You would've never agreed to it, and you would've died.
SAM
Well, maybe I would've liked the choice, at least.
DEAN
We can do this – later. You can – you can kick my ass all you want. Right now, we got bigger problems.

this is the confession from dean to sam/gad. no where in this confession was there an apology. there was no sam i'm sorry, i know what i did went against everything you believed in, i know i took the decision away from you and i made it mine. oh hell, it didn't even have to go past i'm sorry sam. dean just told sam he did what he had to do. but he did what he had to do for himself because as he confessed to sam , he was messed up because sam was. but i get it. dean loves sam and can't be without him. here's the thing, he didn't trust in sam enough to let him choose for himself. he believed sam would never allow for possession so he tricked him. his reason that . he would've died. sam's reply was that he would've at least liked the choice. dean took sam's choice away from him for one thing and that goes back to dean controlling sam. the second problem here is that dean didn't trust sam enough to give him the opportunity to agree to dean's method of saving sam. he didn't trust that sam would love him enough to say yes on his own. it goes back to the whole dean not believing in his brother again. in the man who knew too much, sam put together his broken psyche because he wouldn't leave his brother alone out there. he constantly goes back to hunting with dean, even when dean gave sam an out to go back to amelia sam chose to stay with dean. the point there is that dean gave sam the choice and when given the choice, sam chooses dean. when dean/gad said there aint no me if there aint no you, sam said yes..yes to who he thought was his brother, yes to choosing to follow dean. again, sam believing dean gave him the choice. he trusted in him. now sam learns that dean didnt actually trust him to make the choice, because it wasn't the real dean who said those words, it was an angel pretending to be dean.. so it goes back to sam's trust issue with his brother. the issue where he believes dean doesn't have any actual faith in his brother.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 12:59
crowley to dean in road trip:
How many times am I gonna have to say this? People in your general vicinity don't have much in the way
of a life-span.
Now, I can't teach you how to crack open an angel. It's more... art than science. But I can do it for you. All I ask in return is a little field trip. Dying for some fresh air. Chains on, naturally.
crowley did not say that dean was poison. poison was dean's own description of himself. dean never feels good about himself. this is just more of the same. having a certain opinion of yourself has nothing to do with an apology or acknowledging the hurt he caused his brother. when they were on that bridge, all dean had to do was tell sam he was sorry. and if he was feeling that guilty about kevin at the moment , he could've made an apology that kind of went like...i'm sorry sam. i'm sorry i hurt you and i'm sorry i hurt kevin. dean didn't though. instead of making it about sam or even kevin, dean made it about him. instead of taking responsibility by owning up to what he did that as being wrong, he left his brother.
when dean met up with sam and they were sitting alone in that hospital room waiting on garth, dean could've said something then..but he didn't . then at the end dean wanted to just go back to normal. still never telling sam he was sorry,even after sam told dean that he couldn't trust him, they were damaged, which is probably why sam then made the comment about being partners. at that time dean didn't really give sam any indication that he wanted to fix their relationship... but sam did...and he wasn't giving up..that's why he went to the car.
i think sam is ready to talk. i think he's been waiting. but what happened in captives..all the emotion in sam..actually confronting kevin who he killed, having to tell the mother of the kid he killed he was dead, the emotion that must have overwhelmed him when kevin released sam of his guilt and then that hearing his mom had to take home a ghost and watching them walk away..knowing that the winchesters were partly responsible for how the tran story ended up...so he left to deal with all that emotion. you can see his struggle and pain on his face before he went in his room. i really don't think he was avoiding talking to dean. i think just needed to be alone.
i really don't trust what dean was going to say. kevin did dean a dis service by not letting him have it. kevin undermined everything sam is trying to do with dean. sam's trying to get dean to see his dangerous pattern and kevin let's him off the hook even though dean is willing to kill kevin again.
i do agree with you on this one point though..it was smart of dean to actually give sam time. i have a feeling dean wouldn't have said what sam needed him to say and sam would've reacted badly.
that wasn't the right moment...but dean still needs to step up and sooner than later. and just because that particular moment wasn't the right one, doesn't mean the next morning isn't a good time for dean to start talking to his brother. i know you don't agree, and never will :D , but i still feel it's dean's move. he needs to go to sam and face him. he needs to take his medicine so everyone can get better.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 12:59
crowley to dean in road trip:
How many times am I gonna have to say this? People in your general vicinity don't have much in the way
of a life-span.
Now, I can't teach you how to crack open an angel. It's more... art than science. But I can do it for you. All I ask in return is a little field trip. Dying for some fresh air. Chains on, naturally.
crowley did not say that dean was poison. poison was dean's own description of himself. dean never feels good about himself. this is just more of the same. having a certain opinion of yourself has nothing to do with an apology or acknowledging the hurt he caused his brother. when they were on that bridge, all dean had to do was tell sam he was sorry. and if he was feeling that guilty about kevin at the moment , he could've made an apology that kind of went like...i'm sorry sam. i'm sorry i hurt you and i'm sorry i hurt kevin. dean didn't though. instead of making it about sam or even kevin, dean made it about him. instead of taking responsibility by owning up to what he did that as being wrong, he left his brother.
when dean met up with sam and they were sitting alone in that hospital room waiting on garth, dean could've said something then..but he didn't . then at the end dean wanted to just go back to normal. still never telling sam he was sorry,even after sam told dean that he couldn't trust him, they were damaged, which is probably why sam then made the comment about being partners. at that time dean didn't really give sam any indication that he wanted to fix their relationship... but sam did...and he wasn't giving up..that's why he went to the car.
i think sam is ready to talk. i think he's been waiting. but what happened in captives..all the emotion in sam..actually confronting kevin who he killed, having to tell the mother of the kid he killed he was dead, the emotion that must have overwhelmed him when kevin released sam of his guilt and then that hearing his mom had to take home a ghost and watching them walk away..knowing that the winchesters were partly responsible for how the tran story ended up...so he left to deal with all that emotion. you can see his struggle and pain on his face before he went in his room. i really don't think he was avoiding talking to dean. i think just needed to be alone.
i really don't trust what dean was going to say. kevin did dean a dis service by not letting him have it. kevin undermined everything sam is trying to do with dean. sam's trying to get dean to see his dangerous pattern and kevin let's him off the hook even though dean is willing to kill kevin again.
i do agree with you on this one point though..it was smart of dean to actually give sam time. i have a feeling dean wouldn't have said what sam needed him to say and sam would've reacted badly.
that wasn't the right moment...but dean still needs to step up and sooner than later. and just because that particular moment wasn't the right one, doesn't mean the next morning isn't a good time for dean to start talking to his brother. i know you don't agree, and never will :D , but i still feel it's dean's move. he needs to go to sam and face him. he needs to take his medicine so everyone can get better.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 13:07
Quote:

I think the real confession that Dean was able to do was the one in the bunker before Kevin was killed when he thought he was talking to Sam and before the mark. That was genuine unfortunately by then Gadreel had taken over and knew what Dean was going to do and played sam and his reaction. I think after all that happend with trying to get Gadreel out and such and how Dean listened to what Crowley had said about Dean being poison and such he believes that and he has not been able to bring himself to say the same apology he said in the storage room. Everything he said there he knew he was wrong and such and knew Sam would not want this but did it anyways and said you can kick my a**. But for some reason he believes he did the right thing for right reason and is not going to change. Sam is alive; and no matter how they work together brothers not brothers they are working together. And now he is giving Sam his space until he wants to talk it out. When sam walked away Dean had to figure he was not ready to talk and he is not going to go knocking on the door to try to talk. Maybe space was best thing since seeing Kevin. Everyone can say Dean has to make the first move but Sam has to be ready to hear Deans apologies. If Sam is not ready then what is the point in Dean to try if Sam does not want to hear it yet? It will be pointless to try to apologize to someone who is not ready for it. But the upside of it Dean is working with Sam and Sam is alive. It might be hard for Dean since they are not brothers working on case just partners but to him Sam is alive.
But even in his "real confession" Dean never, ever apologizes. He says he knows Sam will be angry, but that is it. From the transcript

Dean: No, you don't. I mean messed you up like almost dead. No more birthdays, dust to dust. Well, that messed me up, so I made a move, okay, a tough move about you without talking it over because you were in a coma.

And Then

No, I did what I had to do! You would've never agreed to it, and you would've died.

It's all about how poor Dean HAD to make the "tough call" (implying it was the right call) and talking about how it messed DEAN up. Dean is totally saying that he KNEW Sam didn't want it and he still DOESN'T CARE. It's not like Dean TRIED to apologize. All he did was try to deflect blame from himself. If he had admitted he was wrong in that conversation I might agree with you, but Dean is justifying, and deflecting and ordering Sam to "beat his ass" and then move on and never talk of it again. The sad thing is Sam DOESN'T want to hit Dean. He only hits Dean when he is influenced by something supernatural or when he is trying to stop Dean from killing him. Sam doesn't hand out physical punishment to Dean. But Dean is already dictating the terms under which Sam is permitted to be angry. He's still trying to CONTROL Sam and get Sam to act the way Dean wants.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 13:07
Quote:

I think the real confession that Dean was able to do was the one in the bunker before Kevin was killed when he thought he was talking to Sam and before the mark. That was genuine unfortunately by then Gadreel had taken over and knew what Dean was going to do and played sam and his reaction. I think after all that happend with trying to get Gadreel out and such and how Dean listened to what Crowley had said about Dean being poison and such he believes that and he has not been able to bring himself to say the same apology he said in the storage room. Everything he said there he knew he was wrong and such and knew Sam would not want this but did it anyways and said you can kick my a**. But for some reason he believes he did the right thing for right reason and is not going to change. Sam is alive; and no matter how they work together brothers not brothers they are working together. And now he is giving Sam his space until he wants to talk it out. When sam walked away Dean had to figure he was not ready to talk and he is not going to go knocking on the door to try to talk. Maybe space was best thing since seeing Kevin. Everyone can say Dean has to make the first move but Sam has to be ready to hear Deans apologies. If Sam is not ready then what is the point in Dean to try if Sam does not want to hear it yet? It will be pointless to try to apologize to someone who is not ready for it. But the upside of it Dean is working with Sam and Sam is alive. It might be hard for Dean since they are not brothers working on case just partners but to him Sam is alive.
But even in his "real confession" Dean never, ever apologizes. He says he knows Sam will be angry, but that is it. From the transcript

Dean: No, you don't. I mean messed you up like almost dead. No more birthdays, dust to dust. Well, that messed me up, so I made a move, okay, a tough move about you without talking it over because you were in a coma.

And Then

No, I did what I had to do! You would've never agreed to it, and you would've died.

It's all about how poor Dean HAD to make the "tough call" (implying it was the right call) and talking about how it messed DEAN up. Dean is totally saying that he KNEW Sam didn't want it and he still DOESN'T CARE. It's not like Dean TRIED to apologize. All he did was try to deflect blame from himself. If he had admitted he was wrong in that conversation I might agree with you, but Dean is justifying, and deflecting and ordering Sam to "beat his ass" and then move on and never talk of it again. The sad thing is Sam DOESN'T want to hit Dean. He only hits Dean when he is influenced by something supernatural or when he is trying to stop Dean from killing him. Sam doesn't hand out physical punishment to Dean. But Dean is already dictating the terms under which Sam is permitted to be angry. He's still trying to CONTROL Sam and get Sam to act the way Dean wants.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 13:09
@nappi Great minds think alike! and you type faster than I do. You made all of my points better than I did.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 13:09
@nappi Great minds think alike! and you type faster than I do. You made all of my points better than I did.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 13:36
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:

I think the real confession that Dean was able to do was the one in the bunker before Kevin was killed when he thought he was talking to Sam and before the mark. That was genuine unfortunately by then Gadreel had taken over and knew what Dean was going to do and played sam and his reaction. I think after all that happend with trying to get Gadreel out and such and how Dean listened to what Crowley had said about Dean being poison and such he believes that and he has not been able to bring himself to say the same apology he said in the storage room. Everything he said there he knew he was wrong and such and knew Sam would not want this but did it anyways and said you can kick my a**. But for some reason he believes he did the right thing for right reason and is not going to change. Sam is alive; and no matter how they work together brothers not brothers they are working together. And now he is giving Sam his space until he wants to talk it out. When sam walked away Dean had to figure he was not ready to talk and he is not going to go knocking on the door to try to talk. Maybe space was best thing since seeing Kevin. Everyone can say Dean has to make the first move but Sam has to be ready to hear Deans apologies. If Sam is not ready then what is the point in Dean to try if Sam does not want to hear it yet? It will be pointless to try to apologize to someone who is not ready for it. But the upside of it Dean is working with Sam and Sam is alive. It might be hard for Dean since they are not brothers working on case just partners but to him Sam is alive.


But even in his "real confession" Dean never, ever apologizes. He says he knows Sam will be angry, but that is it. From the transcript

Dean: No, you don't. I mean messed you up like almost dead. No more birthdays, dust to dust. Well, that messed me up, so I made a move, okay, a tough move about you without talking it over because you were in a coma.

And Then

No, I did what I had to do! You would've never agreed to it, and you would've died.

It's all about how poor Dean HAD to make the "tough call" (implying it was the right call) and talking about how it messed DEAN up. Dean is totally saying that he KNEW Sam didn't want it and he still DOESN'T CARE. It's not like Dean TRIED to apologize. All he did was try to deflect blame from himself. If he had admitted he was wrong in that conversation I might agree with you, but Dean is justifying, and deflecting and ordering Sam to "beat his ass" and then move on and never talk of it again. The sad thing is Sam DOESN'T want to hit Dean. He only hits Dean when he is influenced by something supernatural or when he is trying to stop Dean from killing him. Sam doesn't hand out physical punishment to Dean. But Dean is already dictating the terms under which Sam is permitted to be angry. He's still trying to CONTROL Sam and get Sam to act the way Dean wants.
Yea but we don't know if that is way Sam would have reacted we might have got the same way he reacted on the bridge. Dean may have said yea you might want to do this to me and its alright I understand but you also have to think how Sam will react. And right now I still think its hard with the way things are to talk things out its to fresh. But I really don't know how two people can live and work under those conditions. I mean both are adjusting; and yes I know Dean has to make the first move but what will be a good time for the first move with sam? I mean if sam keeps retreating to his room and same with Dean they will be at a stand still. I mean Cas would have to come in and help out or even Crowley. I would be curioius and waiting to hear Deans apology. If and when it happens :)
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 13:36
Quote:
Quote:

I think the real confession that Dean was able to do was the one in the bunker before Kevin was killed when he thought he was talking to Sam and before the mark. That was genuine unfortunately by then Gadreel had taken over and knew what Dean was going to do and played sam and his reaction. I think after all that happend with trying to get Gadreel out and such and how Dean listened to what Crowley had said about Dean being poison and such he believes that and he has not been able to bring himself to say the same apology he said in the storage room. Everything he said there he knew he was wrong and such and knew Sam would not want this but did it anyways and said you can kick my a**. But for some reason he believes he did the right thing for right reason and is not going to change. Sam is alive; and no matter how they work together brothers not brothers they are working together. And now he is giving Sam his space until he wants to talk it out. When sam walked away Dean had to figure he was not ready to talk and he is not going to go knocking on the door to try to talk. Maybe space was best thing since seeing Kevin. Everyone can say Dean has to make the first move but Sam has to be ready to hear Deans apologies. If Sam is not ready then what is the point in Dean to try if Sam does not want to hear it yet? It will be pointless to try to apologize to someone who is not ready for it. But the upside of it Dean is working with Sam and Sam is alive. It might be hard for Dean since they are not brothers working on case just partners but to him Sam is alive.
But even in his "real confession" Dean never, ever apologizes. He says he knows Sam will be angry, but that is it. From the transcript

Dean: No, you don't. I mean messed you up like almost dead. No more birthdays, dust to dust. Well, that messed me up, so I made a move, okay, a tough move about you without talking it over because you were in a coma.

And Then

No, I did what I had to do! You would've never agreed to it, and you would've died.

It's all about how poor Dean HAD to make the "tough call" (implying it was the right call) and talking about how it messed DEAN up. Dean is totally saying that he KNEW Sam didn't want it and he still DOESN'T CARE. It's not like Dean TRIED to apologize. All he did was try to deflect blame from himself. If he had admitted he was wrong in that conversation I might agree with you, but Dean is justifying, and deflecting and ordering Sam to "beat his ass" and then move on and never talk of it again. The sad thing is Sam DOESN'T want to hit Dean. He only hits Dean when he is influenced by something supernatural or when he is trying to stop Dean from killing him. Sam doesn't hand out physical punishment to Dean. But Dean is already dictating the terms under which Sam is permitted to be angry. He's still trying to CONTROL Sam and get Sam to act the way Dean wants.
Yea but we don't know if that is way Sam would have reacted we might have got the same way he reacted on the bridge. Dean may have said yea you might want to do this to me and its alright I understand but you also have to think how Sam will react. And right now I still think its hard with the way things are to talk things out its to fresh. But I really don't know how two people can live and work under those conditions. I mean both are adjusting; and yes I know Dean has to make the first move but what will be a good time for the first move with sam? I mean if sam keeps retreating to his room and same with Dean they will be at a stand still. I mean Cas would have to come in and help out or even Crowley. I would be curioius and waiting to hear Deans apology. If and when it happens :)
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 13:50
Quote:
Yea but we don't know if that is way Sam would have reacted we might have got the same way he reacted on the bridge. Dean may have said yea you might want to do this to me and its alright I understand but you also have to think how Sam will react. And right now I still think its hard with the way things are to talk things out its to fresh. But I really don't know how two people can live and work under those conditions. I mean both are adjusting; and yes I know Dean has to make the first move but what will be a good time for the first move with sam? I mean if sam keeps retreating to his room and same with Dean they will be at a stand still. I mean Cas would have to come in and help out or even Crowley. I would be curioius and waiting to hear Deans apology. If and when it happens :)
Exactly. Sam didn't walk away on the bridge, Dean did and did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in Sharp Teeth, he agreed to try and work together, Dean did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in The Purge, Dean not only did not apologize he told Sam that he (Dean) was right and that he would do it again and that Sam would to and Sam said no I wouldn't. And Dean still did not apologize. I don't understand why the brother that didn't walk away, (and when he found Dean didn't call Dean a pissy little bitch and to just cut it out admit Sam's right the way Dean did in The Mentalists;) and the brother that agrees to come back with boundaries in place and the one that tells Dean what he is upset about (whether it is the issue he SHOULD be upset about or not), the one who is willing to say something is wrong and it needs to be fixed is getting HAMMERED about not being nice enough about Dean's fragile feelings. Sam had made the first move THREE times, Dean has rejected any move to discuss the issue on Sam's terms. Why is SAM getting the blame here? He's the one that was wronged. How did the discussion get to why Sam is wrong again? Why does the guy who had the angel shoved in him have to make sure the guy who did the shoving feels happy, and not blamed, and is in the right frame of mind to talk? I just don't understand.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 13:50
Quote:
Yea but we don't know if that is way Sam would have reacted we might have got the same way he reacted on the bridge. Dean may have said yea you might want to do this to me and its alright I understand but you also have to think how Sam will react. And right now I still think its hard with the way things are to talk things out its to fresh. But I really don't know how two people can live and work under those conditions. I mean both are adjusting; and yes I know Dean has to make the first move but what will be a good time for the first move with sam? I mean if sam keeps retreating to his room and same with Dean they will be at a stand still. I mean Cas would have to come in and help out or even Crowley. I would be curioius and waiting to hear Deans apology. If and when it happens :)
Exactly. Sam didn't walk away on the bridge, Dean did and did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in Sharp Teeth, he agreed to try and work together, Dean did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in The Purge, Dean not only did not apologize he told Sam that he (Dean) was right and that he would do it again and that Sam would to and Sam said no I wouldn't. And Dean still did not apologize. I don't understand why the brother that didn't walk away, (and when he found Dean didn't call Dean a pissy little bitch and to just cut it out admit Sam's right the way Dean did in The Mentalists;) and the brother that agrees to come back with boundaries in place and the one that tells Dean what he is upset about (whether it is the issue he SHOULD be upset about or not), the one who is willing to say something is wrong and it needs to be fixed is getting HAMMERED about not being nice enough about Dean's fragile feelings. Sam had made the first move THREE times, Dean has rejected any move to discuss the issue on Sam's terms. Why is SAM getting the blame here? He's the one that was wronged. How did the discussion get to why Sam is wrong again? Why does the guy who had the angel shoved in him have to make sure the guy who did the shoving feels happy, and not blamed, and is in the right frame of mind to talk? I just don't understand.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 14:22
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
Yea but we don't know if that is way Sam would have reacted we might have got the same way he reacted on the bridge. Dean may have said yea you might want to do this to me and its alright I understand but you also have to think how Sam will react. And right now I still think its hard with the way things are to talk things out its to fresh. But I really don't know how two people can live and work under those conditions. I mean both are adjusting; and yes I know Dean has to make the first move but what will be a good time for the first move with sam? I mean if sam keeps retreating to his room and same with Dean they will be at a stand still. I mean Cas would have to come in and help out or even Crowley. I would be curioius and waiting to hear Deans apology. If and when it happens :)


Exactly. Sam didn't walk away on the bridge, Dean did and did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in Sharp Teeth, he agreed to try and work together, Dean did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in The Purge, Dean not only did not apologize he told Sam that he (Dean) was right and that he would do it again and that Sam would to and Sam said no I wouldn't. And Dean still did not apologize. I don't understand why the brother that didn't walk away, (and when he found Dean didn't call Dean a pissy little bitch and to just cut it out admit Sam's right the way Dean did in The Mentalists;) and the brother that agrees to come back with boundaries in place and the one that tells Dean what he is upset about (whether it is the issue he SHOULD be upset about or not), the one who is willing to say something is wrong and it needs to be fixed is getting HAMMERED about not being nice enough about Dean's fragile feelings. Sam had made the first move THREE times, Dean has rejected any move to discuss the issue on Sam's terms. Why is SAM getting the blame here? He's the one that was wronged. How did the discussion get to why Sam is wrong again? Why does the guy who had the angel shoved in him have to make sure the guy who did the shoving feels happy, and not blamed, and is in the right frame of mind to talk? I just don't understand.
How does Sam get wronged in this thank the writers because we are seeing the effect having on dean and that has fans thinking hmmm mark of cain? Is this something that is happening because of that?? So if that is what they are after they are getting the curiosity on that one that is for sure. But I want Dean to apologize. And I think its going to be hard for someone like Dean who treats sam like a child and he is parent because he has been that since he was 4 since dad put him in charge and made sam the one to protect at any cost. It ingrained in Dean and its like trying to change someone who has been doing this that young to say hey just be my big brother and don't put my life before anyone elses. And I think mrs tran when she said keeping kevin close is her job and safe and I think Dean understands that all to well. He can't just shut that off after so long of him doing it. And the not apology in Sharp Teeth and Purge where the boys talking out the problem. Granted no apology but right now Dean has no clue what he did wrong and the fact he would do it again just without kevin not getting hurt in cross fire. So its going to be intresting how long this drags out. But the writers have wronged Sam.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 14:22
Quote:
Quote:
Yea but we don't know if that is way Sam would have reacted we might have got the same way he reacted on the bridge. Dean may have said yea you might want to do this to me and its alright I understand but you also have to think how Sam will react. And right now I still think its hard with the way things are to talk things out its to fresh. But I really don't know how two people can live and work under those conditions. I mean both are adjusting; and yes I know Dean has to make the first move but what will be a good time for the first move with sam? I mean if sam keeps retreating to his room and same with Dean they will be at a stand still. I mean Cas would have to come in and help out or even Crowley. I would be curioius and waiting to hear Deans apology. If and when it happens :)
Exactly. Sam didn't walk away on the bridge, Dean did and did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in Sharp Teeth, he agreed to try and work together, Dean did not apologize. Sam did not walk away in The Purge, Dean not only did not apologize he told Sam that he (Dean) was right and that he would do it again and that Sam would to and Sam said no I wouldn't. And Dean still did not apologize. I don't understand why the brother that didn't walk away, (and when he found Dean didn't call Dean a pissy little bitch and to just cut it out admit Sam's right the way Dean did in The Mentalists;) and the brother that agrees to come back with boundaries in place and the one that tells Dean what he is upset about (whether it is the issue he SHOULD be upset about or not), the one who is willing to say something is wrong and it needs to be fixed is getting HAMMERED about not being nice enough about Dean's fragile feelings. Sam had made the first move THREE times, Dean has rejected any move to discuss the issue on Sam's terms. Why is SAM getting the blame here? He's the one that was wronged. How did the discussion get to why Sam is wrong again? Why does the guy who had the angel shoved in him have to make sure the guy who did the shoving feels happy, and not blamed, and is in the right frame of mind to talk? I just don't understand.
How does Sam get wronged in this thank the writers because we are seeing the effect having on dean and that has fans thinking hmmm mark of cain? Is this something that is happening because of that?? So if that is what they are after they are getting the curiosity on that one that is for sure. But I want Dean to apologize. And I think its going to be hard for someone like Dean who treats sam like a child and he is parent because he has been that since he was 4 since dad put him in charge and made sam the one to protect at any cost. It ingrained in Dean and its like trying to change someone who has been doing this that young to say hey just be my big brother and don't put my life before anyone elses. And I think mrs tran when she said keeping kevin close is her job and safe and I think Dean understands that all to well. He can't just shut that off after so long of him doing it. And the not apology in Sharp Teeth and Purge where the boys talking out the problem. Granted no apology but right now Dean has no clue what he did wrong and the fact he would do it again just without kevin not getting hurt in cross fire. So its going to be intresting how long this drags out. But the writers have wronged Sam.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 14:47
percyowner I think that was the biggest problem for Sam was Dean walking away on that bridge. Sam was hurt like really hurt physically. He couldn't even stand up. He was confused and emotionally drained. If ever he needed his big brother no matter what Dean had done it was then. To me that was Dean's worse moment, even worse than the possession. Dean wanted Sam to get mad and get over it like always, forgive and then Dean could go on his little one man quest. The look on Dean's face when Sam told him to go was one of surprise (shocked sadness), like he wasn't expecting that response from Sam.
I said this on Alice's review but Dean knew he was taking a big gamble. He wanted to tell Sam straight away, but even then Gadreel was afraid of being ejected so he started manipulating Dean. I think as time went on Dean really wanted to tell Sam but was stopped every time with the threat of Sam dying. When Dean confessed to Sam/Gad I am sure he played out that speech in his head a million times. He figured he would get punched, Sam would be royally pissed but when he cooled off he would see that the angel had done a good thing. Their would be forgiveness and all would be well. But of course whenever a deal is involved things never turn out well. I think Dean doesn't really know how to make this right. We all know what he needs to do and so does Sam but he isn't going to lead Dean to it. This is something that Dean needs to learn for himself. Maybe Dean needs to make the first move maybe Sam but either way there isn't going to be resolution until Dean understands why Sam can't get past this.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 14:47
percyowner I think that was the biggest problem for Sam was Dean walking away on that bridge. Sam was hurt like really hurt physically. He couldn't even stand up. He was confused and emotionally drained. If ever he needed his big brother no matter what Dean had done it was then. To me that was Dean's worse moment, even worse than the possession. Dean wanted Sam to get mad and get over it like always, forgive and then Dean could go on his little one man quest. The look on Dean's face when Sam told him to go was one of surprise (shocked sadness), like he wasn't expecting that response from Sam.
I said this on Alice's review but Dean knew he was taking a big gamble. He wanted to tell Sam straight away, but even then Gadreel was afraid of being ejected so he started manipulating Dean. I think as time went on Dean really wanted to tell Sam but was stopped every time with the threat of Sam dying. When Dean confessed to Sam/Gad I am sure he played out that speech in his head a million times. He figured he would get punched, Sam would be royally pissed but when he cooled off he would see that the angel had done a good thing. Their would be forgiveness and all would be well. But of course whenever a deal is involved things never turn out well. I think Dean doesn't really know how to make this right. We all know what he needs to do and so does Sam but he isn't going to lead Dean to it. This is something that Dean needs to learn for himself. Maybe Dean needs to make the first move maybe Sam but either way there isn't going to be resolution until Dean understands why Sam can't get past this.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 14:48
"I am happy to say Robert Berens’ “Captives” has settled some of my doubts about Supernatural’s story line this season."
Please bottle and send some of that optimism to me, because this ep has me questioning if I should continue.

"I do wish someone on that staff loved writing Sam the way Berens loves to write Cas."

You and me both, good sir! I wish there was a single writer left on staff that loves writing for Sam. I think they are all long gone however.
Frankly, Cas is the real Big Damn Hero on the show these days. He's out there on his own, fighting the good fight, making the hard choices, doing what needs to be done, even sacrificing if it means making the morally correct choice rather than the choice that means he "wins." He is so inspiring that other angels come to him to guide him, although he humbly protests that he's no leader. Maybe the spinoff should be Cas and Mrs. Tran, since they are the badass heros these days.

"Dean will need to verbalize to Sam what he already knows in his gut: he was wrong to take away Sam’s power to make a decision about the possession"

Oh Gerry, I hope that's true. As I look back (and please feel free to correct me, I'd love to be wrong on this), I don't recall a single indication from Dean that he does think it's wrong. It's always been more the "tough call" he had to make so that Sam wouldn't make the "wrong" one.
I'll grant you that Dean acknowledges it had a poor consequence in Kevin's murder, so he's sorry for THAT and that alone. Oh wait, he's also sorry that he lied to Castiel. That's why Dean apologized to Kevin and to Cas, but not to Sam- because he didn't wrong Sam in his mind.

"I didn’t take Kevin’s use of the word stupid to mean Sam’s pain is stupid, but rather that he’s allowed it to skew his perspective about Dean’s value in his life. "

Well, that's certainly an extremely generous way to look at it. Sorry, but you picked one word out of what Kevin said. The full thing was "Can you two get over it? The drama, the fighting? It’s stupid." Despite the "two" it's impossible to not see Kevin, like Cas, siding with Dean to just put some "W"s on the board and get past it. Despite what some in fandom think, absolutely NO ONE ON THE SHOW thinks Sam's anger is justified, so I'm starting to believe Show doesn't think so either. Otherwise why all the long protracted looks at Dean's manpain, while Sam slips away behind a closed door?

I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "Dean's value in his life" as well. Sam is still there, isn't he? Dean is the one who wanted to leave.

"Sam has been on a journey out of the story since season eight, which has been frustrating me. He’s either deciding he doesn’t need to be a hero and other people can hunt evil, or he’s thinking he’s only good for sacrifice. What he doesn’t seem to be able to envision is being comfortable as Sam Winchester, Man of Letters and Hunter. I hope his arc will be re-evaluating his own worth and therefore, his survival."

After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before, Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad.

"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.
I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 14:48
"I am happy to say Robert Berens’ “Captives” has settled some of my doubts about Supernatural’s story line this season."
Please bottle and send some of that optimism to me, because this ep has me questioning if I should continue.

"I do wish someone on that staff loved writing Sam the way Berens loves to write Cas."

You and me both, good sir! I wish there was a single writer left on staff that loves writing for Sam. I think they are all long gone however.
Frankly, Cas is the real Big Damn Hero on the show these days. He's out there on his own, fighting the good fight, making the hard choices, doing what needs to be done, even sacrificing if it means making the morally correct choice rather than the choice that means he "wins." He is so inspiring that other angels come to him to guide him, although he humbly protests that he's no leader. Maybe the spinoff should be Cas and Mrs. Tran, since they are the badass heros these days.

"Dean will need to verbalize to Sam what he already knows in his gut: he was wrong to take away Sam’s power to make a decision about the possession"

Oh Gerry, I hope that's true. As I look back (and please feel free to correct me, I'd love to be wrong on this), I don't recall a single indication from Dean that he does think it's wrong. It's always been more the "tough call" he had to make so that Sam wouldn't make the "wrong" one.
I'll grant you that Dean acknowledges it had a poor consequence in Kevin's murder, so he's sorry for THAT and that alone. Oh wait, he's also sorry that he lied to Castiel. That's why Dean apologized to Kevin and to Cas, but not to Sam- because he didn't wrong Sam in his mind.

"I didn’t take Kevin’s use of the word stupid to mean Sam’s pain is stupid, but rather that he’s allowed it to skew his perspective about Dean’s value in his life. "

Well, that's certainly an extremely generous way to look at it. Sorry, but you picked one word out of what Kevin said. The full thing was "Can you two get over it? The drama, the fighting? It’s stupid." Despite the "two" it's impossible to not see Kevin, like Cas, siding with Dean to just put some "W"s on the board and get past it. Despite what some in fandom think, absolutely NO ONE ON THE SHOW thinks Sam's anger is justified, so I'm starting to believe Show doesn't think so either. Otherwise why all the long protracted looks at Dean's manpain, while Sam slips away behind a closed door?

I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "Dean's value in his life" as well. Sam is still there, isn't he? Dean is the one who wanted to leave.

"Sam has been on a journey out of the story since season eight, which has been frustrating me. He’s either deciding he doesn’t need to be a hero and other people can hunt evil, or he’s thinking he’s only good for sacrifice. What he doesn’t seem to be able to envision is being comfortable as Sam Winchester, Man of Letters and Hunter. I hope his arc will be re-evaluating his own worth and therefore, his survival."

After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before, Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad.

"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.
I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 15:02
#149 suesbsg9 I disagree that the writers have wronged Sam. I personally think the writing has been clear. It is some in the fandom that feel no matter what Sam is always going to be the wrong brother. I have had no problem understanding Sam's POV. Granted it isn't as well fleshed out as Dean's POV but it never has been in the history of the show. Dean is us the audience. He is how we view the show. Sam is the mystery and often what happens to him drives the story. I understand how it is easier for fans to identify with Dean because he, like us, is reacting to the story. Sam is usually the victim of the story. Whatever supernatural crap happens in the story usually happens to Sam. I think that is where JC is trying to take these guys. Where they both are the POV and neither one is the victim or the one who is always needing to be saved no matter the cost. I could be wrong but that is how I see it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 15:02
#149 suesbsg9 I disagree that the writers have wronged Sam. I personally think the writing has been clear. It is some in the fandom that feel no matter what Sam is always going to be the wrong brother. I have had no problem understanding Sam's POV. Granted it isn't as well fleshed out as Dean's POV but it never has been in the history of the show. Dean is us the audience. He is how we view the show. Sam is the mystery and often what happens to him drives the story. I understand how it is easier for fans to identify with Dean because he, like us, is reacting to the story. Sam is usually the victim of the story. Whatever supernatural crap happens in the story usually happens to Sam. I think that is where JC is trying to take these guys. Where they both are the POV and neither one is the victim or the one who is always needing to be saved no matter the cost. I could be wrong but that is how I see it.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-03 15:03
Hi, Rick D! My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life. Whether he will ever get there, I don't know. I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.

But I do think we've seen he knows he should have told Sam as soon as he could and let Sam make the final determination on that course of action. His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.

His own instincts told him to tell Sam, never mind all the hurt and betrayal Sam feels now. But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.

I think the boys will eventually get to the point where they hash things out and I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy. I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for. Perhaps they both need to walk in each other's shoes first and that's coming up. That's just my take, though. We'll see where the story goes.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-03 15:03
Hi, Rick D! My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life. Whether he will ever get there, I don't know. I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.

But I do think we've seen he knows he should have told Sam as soon as he could and let Sam make the final determination on that course of action. His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.

His own instincts told him to tell Sam, never mind all the hurt and betrayal Sam feels now. But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.

I think the boys will eventually get to the point where they hash things out and I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy. I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for. Perhaps they both need to walk in each other's shoes first and that's coming up. That's just my take, though. We'll see where the story goes.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 15:25
Quote:
"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.

I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.
If that is how this plays out I too will be done. If Sam is forced to say he is wrong here, I don't think I will be able to accept that.

Tim the Enchanter pointed out something that has encouraged me. He reminded me that in Sam's speech at the church Sam asked how soon before Dean turned to another angel or another vampire. The answer about how soon he would trust another angel (one that he had never met before) was clear, almost immediately. Now he has permitted Crowley who has become addicted to human blood and is ingesting it, i.e. another vampire to possess Sam and have access to Sam's body. In addition Crowley being a demon give him the same status as Ruby something Dean busted Sam's chops over trusting. So I'm hoping that the writers ARE setting this up to show that not only did Dean violate Sam's autonomy and it was wrong, but that he also immediately and with no thought did the EXACT things that Sam told him had hurt Sam badly enough that he felt he was not worthy of life. Dean has, in fact, violated Sam's very expressly stated need that Dean not trust an angel or a vampire over him.

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 15:25
Quote:
"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.

I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.
If that is how this plays out I too will be done. If Sam is forced to say he is wrong here, I don't think I will be able to accept that.

Tim the Enchanter pointed out something that has encouraged me. He reminded me that in Sam's speech at the church Sam asked how soon before Dean turned to another angel or another vampire. The answer about how soon he would trust another angel (one that he had never met before) was clear, almost immediately. Now he has permitted Crowley who has become addicted to human blood and is ingesting it, i.e. another vampire to possess Sam and have access to Sam's body. In addition Crowley being a demon give him the same status as Ruby something Dean busted Sam's chops over trusting. So I'm hoping that the writers ARE setting this up to show that not only did Dean violate Sam's autonomy and it was wrong, but that he also immediately and with no thought did the EXACT things that Sam told him had hurt Sam badly enough that he felt he was not worthy of life. Dean has, in fact, violated Sam's very expressly stated need that Dean not trust an angel or a vampire over him.

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:26
Quoting Gerry:
Hi, Rick D! My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life. Whether he will ever get there, I don't know. I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.

But I do think we've seen he knows he should have told Sam as soon as he could and let Sam make the final determination on that course of action. His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.

His own instincts told him to tell Sam, never mind all the hurt and betrayal Sam feels now. But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.

I think the boys will eventually get to the point where they hash things out and I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy. I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for. Perhaps they both need to walk in each other's shoes first and that's coming up. That's just my take, though. We'll see where the story goes.


Can someone write that eps because we never have had a Its a wonderful life type story to see how one brother would have done had the other not been born what his life would have been like without him in. But I do think they need to walk in each others shoes to see what their life is like. I mean they say they know each other yes they can track each other down thats what dad taught them but I get the feeling that Sam needs to know family not just the word that Dean gives him. And Dean just needs to know what its like to be just a brother and not like the parent. Because I think since he has taken care of Sam since he was 4 its hard for him to escape that dad ingrained that into him and its hard now to turn it off. And I think Sam would just like a big brother and feel like a partner in the team not older bro/dad telling him what to do. And I think that is what needs fixing. And sorry Gerry read your response and got me to thinking that is the kind of eps we need each other living and not knowing what it is like not having a brother not like what Zachariah did but really what their life would have been like without the other one in it.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:26
Quote:
Hi, Rick D! My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life. Whether he will ever get there, I don't know. I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.

But I do think we've seen he knows he should have told Sam as soon as he could and let Sam make the final determination on that course of action. His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.

His own instincts told him to tell Sam, never mind all the hurt and betrayal Sam feels now. But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.

I think the boys will eventually get to the point where they hash things out and I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy. I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for. Perhaps they both need to walk in each other's shoes first and that's coming up. That's just my take, though. We'll see where the story goes.
Can someone write that eps because we never have had a Its a wonderful life type story to see how one brother would have done had the other not been born what his life would have been like without him in. But I do think they need to walk in each others shoes to see what their life is like. I mean they say they know each other yes they can track each other down thats what dad taught them but I get the feeling that Sam needs to know family not just the word that Dean gives him. And Dean just needs to know what its like to be just a brother and not like the parent. Because I think since he has taken care of Sam since he was 4 its hard for him to escape that dad ingrained that into him and its hard now to turn it off. And I think Sam would just like a big brother and feel like a partner in the team not older bro/dad telling him what to do. And I think that is what needs fixing. And sorry Gerry read your response and got me to thinking that is the kind of eps we need each other living and not knowing what it is like not having a brother not like what Zachariah did but really what their life would have been like without the other one in it.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:29
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.

I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.


If that is how this plays out I too will be done. If Sam is forced to say he is wrong here, I don't think I will be able to accept that.

Tim the Enchanter pointed out something that has encouraged me. He reminded me that in Sam's speech at the church Sam asked how soon before Dean turned to another angel or another vampire. The answer about how soon he would trust another angel (one that he had never met before) was clear, almost immediately. Now he has permitted Crowley who has become addicted to human blood and is ingesting it, i.e. another vampire to possess Sam and have access to Sam's body. In addition Crowley being a demon give him the same status as Ruby something Dean busted Sam's chops over trusting. So I'm hoping that the writers ARE setting this up to show that not only did Dean violate Sam's autonomy and it was wrong, but that he also immediately and with no thought did the EXACT things that Sam told him had hurt Sam badly enough that he felt he was not worthy of life. Dean has, in fact, violated Sam's very expressly stated need that Dean not trust an angel or a vampire over him.

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.
Well don't forget not soon after arriving at Garths side Dean had already hunted with Crowley also. So its like now here is Dean calling Crowley. Needs Crowley to find the weapon to kill Abaddon. So again Dean has turned to someone else. But he has never called Cas. But I am sure if Dean called Cas; Cas would come to him.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:29
Quote:
Quote:
"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.

I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.
If that is how this plays out I too will be done. If Sam is forced to say he is wrong here, I don't think I will be able to accept that.

Tim the Enchanter pointed out something that has encouraged me. He reminded me that in Sam's speech at the church Sam asked how soon before Dean turned to another angel or another vampire. The answer about how soon he would trust another angel (one that he had never met before) was clear, almost immediately. Now he has permitted Crowley who has become addicted to human blood and is ingesting it, i.e. another vampire to possess Sam and have access to Sam's body. In addition Crowley being a demon give him the same status as Ruby something Dean busted Sam's chops over trusting. So I'm hoping that the writers ARE setting this up to show that not only did Dean violate Sam's autonomy and it was wrong, but that he also immediately and with no thought did the EXACT things that Sam told him had hurt Sam badly enough that he felt he was not worthy of life. Dean has, in fact, violated Sam's very expressly stated need that Dean not trust an angel or a vampire over him.

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.
Well don't forget not soon after arriving at Garths side Dean had already hunted with Crowley also. So its like now here is Dean calling Crowley. Needs Crowley to find the weapon to kill Abaddon. So again Dean has turned to someone else. But he has never called Cas. But I am sure if Dean called Cas; Cas would come to him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 15:31
Quoting cheryl42:
percyowner I think that was the biggest problem for Sam was Dean walking away on that bridge. Sam was hurt like really hurt physically. He couldn't even stand up. He was confused and emotionally drained. If ever he needed his big brother no matter what Dean had done it was then. To me that was Dean's worse moment, even worse than the possession. Dean wanted Sam to get mad and get over it like always, forgive and then Dean could go on his little one man quest. The look on Dean's face when Sam told him to go was one of surprise (shocked sadness), like he wasn't expecting that response from Sam.
I said this on Alice's review but Dean knew he was taking a big gamble. He wanted to tell Sam straight away, but even then Gadreel was afraid of being ejected so he started manipulating Dean. I think as time went on Dean really wanted to tell Sam but was stopped every time with the threat of Sam dying. When Dean confessed to Sam/Gad I am sure he played out that speech in his head a million times. He figured he would get punched, Sam would be royally pissed but when he cooled off he would see that the angel had done a good thing. Their would be forgiveness and all would be well. But of course whenever a deal is involved things never turn out well. I think Dean doesn't really know how to make this right. We all know what he needs to do and so does Sam but he isn't going to lead Dean to it. This is something that Dean needs to learn for himself. Maybe Dean needs to make the first move maybe Sam but either way there isn't going to be resolution until Dean understands why Sam can't get past this.


I do agree that Dean walking away when Sam had finally thrown Dean out was very hurtful to Sam. I also find myself flummoxed that when Sam walked away from Dean after finding out about Amy many fans were all over his case, when Sam had reason to be angry, but when Dean mistreats Sam and then runs from the responsibility of dealing with the fallout of Sam's feelings Sam is still getting criticized.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 15:31
Quote:
percyowner I think that was the biggest problem for Sam was Dean walking away on that bridge. Sam was hurt like really hurt physically. He couldn't even stand up. He was confused and emotionally drained. If ever he needed his big brother no matter what Dean had done it was then. To me that was Dean's worse moment, even worse than the possession. Dean wanted Sam to get mad and get over it like always, forgive and then Dean could go on his little one man quest. The look on Dean's face when Sam told him to go was one of surprise (shocked sadness), like he wasn't expecting that response from Sam.
I said this on Alice's review but Dean knew he was taking a big gamble. He wanted to tell Sam straight away, but even then Gadreel was afraid of being ejected so he started manipulating Dean. I think as time went on Dean really wanted to tell Sam but was stopped every time with the threat of Sam dying. When Dean confessed to Sam/Gad I am sure he played out that speech in his head a million times. He figured he would get punched, Sam would be royally pissed but when he cooled off he would see that the angel had done a good thing. Their would be forgiveness and all would be well. But of course whenever a deal is involved things never turn out well. I think Dean doesn't really know how to make this right. We all know what he needs to do and so does Sam but he isn't going to lead Dean to it. This is something that Dean needs to learn for himself. Maybe Dean needs to make the first move maybe Sam but either way there isn't going to be resolution until Dean understands why Sam can't get past this.
I do agree that Dean walking away when Sam had finally thrown Dean out was very hurtful to Sam. I also find myself flummoxed that when Sam walked away from Dean after finding out about Amy many fans were all over his case, when Sam had reason to be angry, but when Dean mistreats Sam and then runs from the responsibility of dealing with the fallout of Sam's feelings Sam is still getting criticized.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 15:37
Quote:
Well don't forget not soon after arriving at Garths side Dean had already hunted with Crowley also. So its like now here is Dean calling Crowley. Needs Crowley to find the weapon to kill Abaddon. So again Dean has turned to someone else. But he has never called Cas. But I am sure if Dean called Cas; Cas would come to him.
Okay, but Sam has in no way objected to Cas since he threw Gadreel out. He considers Cas a friend and has shown no problem with Dean working with Cas now. When Dean first met Cas he trusted Cas telling him that Sam was an abomination and a thing that needed to be stopped. Now, Cas is semi-friends with both Sam and Dean. I think I'm missing your point, somehow.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 15:37
Quote:
Well don't forget not soon after arriving at Garths side Dean had already hunted with Crowley also. So its like now here is Dean calling Crowley. Needs Crowley to find the weapon to kill Abaddon. So again Dean has turned to someone else. But he has never called Cas. But I am sure if Dean called Cas; Cas would come to him.
Okay, but Sam has in no way objected to Cas since he threw Gadreel out. He considers Cas a friend and has shown no problem with Dean working with Cas now. When Dean first met Cas he trusted Cas telling him that Sam was an abomination and a thing that needed to be stopped. Now, Cas is semi-friends with both Sam and Dean. I think I'm missing your point, somehow.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:43
Quoting percysowner:
Quote:
Well don't forget not soon after arriving at Garths side Dean had already hunted with Crowley also. So its like now here is Dean calling Crowley. Needs Crowley to find the weapon to kill Abaddon. So again Dean has turned to someone else. But he has never called Cas. But I am sure if Dean called Cas; Cas would come to him.


Okay, but Sam has in no way objected to Cas since he threw Gadreel out. He considers Cas a friend and has shown no problem with Dean working with Cas now. When Dean first met Cas he trusted Cas telling him that Sam was an abomination and a thing that needed to be stopped. Now, Cas is semi-friends with both Sam and Dean. I think I'm missing your point, somehow.
I guess recalling in the church about Dean trusting another angel or vampire never sure if because Dean seems to forgive cas or even how hard he took it when Cas died as Cas was kind of a replacement brother like benny. That when sam said what he said. I know cas is friends with both of them more so with Dean then sam but its like wasn't sure since Dean took off with Cas when Sam could have used Dean there while he was giving Crowley the treatments and he took off to help Cas. So not sure if Sam is jealous of the friendship that Dean has with cas. Sorry forgot my point.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:43
Quote:
Quote:
Well don't forget not soon after arriving at Garths side Dean had already hunted with Crowley also. So its like now here is Dean calling Crowley. Needs Crowley to find the weapon to kill Abaddon. So again Dean has turned to someone else. But he has never called Cas. But I am sure if Dean called Cas; Cas would come to him.
Okay, but Sam has in no way objected to Cas since he threw Gadreel out. He considers Cas a friend and has shown no problem with Dean working with Cas now. When Dean first met Cas he trusted Cas telling him that Sam was an abomination and a thing that needed to be stopped. Now, Cas is semi-friends with both Sam and Dean. I think I'm missing your point, somehow.
I guess recalling in the church about Dean trusting another angel or vampire never sure if because Dean seems to forgive cas or even how hard he took it when Cas died as Cas was kind of a replacement brother like benny. That when sam said what he said. I know cas is friends with both of them more so with Dean then sam but its like wasn't sure since Dean took off with Cas when Sam could have used Dean there while he was giving Crowley the treatments and he took off to help Cas. So not sure if Sam is jealous of the friendship that Dean has with cas. Sorry forgot my point.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 15:47
you know i do understand that dean didn't have time to tell sam the real plan. the machine was flatlining and dean made his move. i even get that he couldn't tell sam when they had left the hospital. i'm talking about after that. weeks and weeks after that. gad kept managing to sway dean and i have to ask myself how that was possible. dean is stubborn. nobody makes dean do what he doesn't want to do. he's being stubborn right now. he sees himself in the right and would do it again. he's certainly holding his stance with sam, so how is it that dean, who seemingly wanted to tell sam the truth, found himself so easily convinced not to? my personal feeling is because he didn't really want to tell sam the truth.
in the beginning i would agree it was fear for sam's, but not later on. later it just turned into fear of consequences with sam. this fear blinded dean from seeing that gad was playing him.
if dean had only trusted in sam in the first place, instead of trusting in this angel he knew nothing about...if he had told gad to screw off he was telling his brother the truth...dean would've found out sooner that gad wasn't zeke and the way things went down may not have happened.
the s5 finale's moral of the story was focused on love and the family bond and how the winchesters have both and thus overcome all odds.
i think the focus of 8 and 9 is about trust. and how mutual trust and faith in ea other will also have the winchesters overcome all odds.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 15:47
you know i do understand that dean didn't have time to tell sam the real plan. the machine was flatlining and dean made his move. i even get that he couldn't tell sam when they had left the hospital. i'm talking about after that. weeks and weeks after that. gad kept managing to sway dean and i have to ask myself how that was possible. dean is stubborn. nobody makes dean do what he doesn't want to do. he's being stubborn right now. he sees himself in the right and would do it again. he's certainly holding his stance with sam, so how is it that dean, who seemingly wanted to tell sam the truth, found himself so easily convinced not to? my personal feeling is because he didn't really want to tell sam the truth.
in the beginning i would agree it was fear for sam's, but not later on. later it just turned into fear of consequences with sam. this fear blinded dean from seeing that gad was playing him.
if dean had only trusted in sam in the first place, instead of trusting in this angel he knew nothing about...if he had told gad to screw off he was telling his brother the truth...dean would've found out sooner that gad wasn't zeke and the way things went down may not have happened.
the s5 finale's moral of the story was focused on love and the family bond and how the winchesters have both and thus overcome all odds.
i think the focus of 8 and 9 is about trust. and how mutual trust and faith in ea other will also have the winchesters overcome all odds.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:59
Quoting nappi815:
you know i do understand that dean didn't have time to tell sam the real plan. the machine was flatlining and dean made his move. i even get that he couldn't tell sam when they had left the hospital. i'm talking about after that. weeks and weeks after that. gad kept managing to sway dean and i have to ask myself how that was possible. dean is stubborn. nobody makes dean do what he doesn't want to do. he's being stubborn right now. he sees himself in the right and would do it again. he's certainly holding his stance with sam, so how is it that dean, who seemingly wanted to tell sam the truth, found himself so easily convinced not to? my personal feeling is because he didn't really want to tell sam the truth.
in the beginning i would agree it was fear for sam's, but not later on. later it just turned into fear of consequences with sam. this fear blinded dean from seeing that gad was playing him.
if dean had only trusted in sam in the first place, instead of trusting in this angel he knew nothing about...if he had told gad to screw off he was telling his brother the truth...dean would've found out sooner that gad wasn't zeke and the way things went down may not have happened.
the s5 finale's moral of the story was focused on love and the family bond and how the winchesters have both and thus overcome all odds.
i think the focus of 8 and 9 is about trust. and how mutual trust and faith in ea other will also have the winchesters overcome all odds.


Not that I am trying to give any trust in Gad but I do think like his other friend who was in jail with him in heaven he was trying to make things right by doing the right thing and that is why he picked an angel like zeke because he did the right things. And he did cure sam we can't say he lied to dean about that Sam came out of having him cure him. And Dean did try to tell Sam but then had to come with lies that made him the worse liar in the world. I mean really when Cas was alive because Dean convinced the reaper really I think cas called him on that one. But I think Dean kept on trying outside the hospital. When Sam went running and got him breakfast but Zeke was not following his part of the bargain give him his brother and I think Zeke had to listen in to make sure Dean didn't tell Sam because he kept on saying about sam dying and that is what kept Dean from telling sam just digging hmself into a bigger hole. the mind sweep was suppost to be temporary. But for some reason I see Zeke either going to help the winchesters in the end defeat metatron because they will need all the angel power they can get. But I am thinking Gad was truly trying to help Dean and then got scared by Metatron and then Dean figuring out that zeke was not inside Sam. I am curious though Sam wants him dead and I wonder if gad appeals to Dean he can help if Dean will let Gad help to get Cas get his grace back and open up heaven. And have cas run heaven. Sorry getting ahead of myself again thinking out loud.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-03-03 15:59
Quote:
you know i do understand that dean didn't have time to tell sam the real plan. the machine was flatlining and dean made his move. i even get that he couldn't tell sam when they had left the hospital. i'm talking about after that. weeks and weeks after that. gad kept managing to sway dean and i have to ask myself how that was possible. dean is stubborn. nobody makes dean do what he doesn't want to do. he's being stubborn right now. he sees himself in the right and would do it again. he's certainly holding his stance with sam, so how is it that dean, who seemingly wanted to tell sam the truth, found himself so easily convinced not to? my personal feeling is because he didn't really want to tell sam the truth.
in the beginning i would agree it was fear for sam's, but not later on. later it just turned into fear of consequences with sam. this fear blinded dean from seeing that gad was playing him.
if dean had only trusted in sam in the first place, instead of trusting in this angel he knew nothing about...if he had told gad to screw off he was telling his brother the truth...dean would've found out sooner that gad wasn't zeke and the way things went down may not have happened.
the s5 finale's moral of the story was focused on love and the family bond and how the winchesters have both and thus overcome all odds.
i think the focus of 8 and 9 is about trust. and how mutual trust and faith in ea other will also have the winchesters overcome all odds.
Not that I am trying to give any trust in Gad but I do think like his other friend who was in jail with him in heaven he was trying to make things right by doing the right thing and that is why he picked an angel like zeke because he did the right things. And he did cure sam we can't say he lied to dean about that Sam came out of having him cure him. And Dean did try to tell Sam but then had to come with lies that made him the worse liar in the world. I mean really when Cas was alive because Dean convinced the reaper really I think cas called him on that one. But I think Dean kept on trying outside the hospital. When Sam went running and got him breakfast but Zeke was not following his part of the bargain give him his brother and I think Zeke had to listen in to make sure Dean didn't tell Sam because he kept on saying about sam dying and that is what kept Dean from telling sam just digging hmself into a bigger hole. the mind sweep was suppost to be temporary. But for some reason I see Zeke either going to help the winchesters in the end defeat metatron because they will need all the angel power they can get. But I am thinking Gad was truly trying to help Dean and then got scared by Metatron and then Dean figuring out that zeke was not inside Sam. I am curious though Sam wants him dead and I wonder if gad appeals to Dean he can help if Dean will let Gad help to get Cas get his grace back and open up heaven. And have cas run heaven. Sorry getting ahead of myself again thinking out loud.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 16:07
Quoting Rick D:
"I am happy to say Robert Berens’ “Captives” has settled some of my doubts about Supernatural’s story line this season."
Please bottle and send some of that optimism to me, because this ep has me questioning if I should continue.

"I do wish someone on that staff loved writing Sam the way Berens loves to write Cas."

You and me both, good sir! I wish there was a single writer left on staff that loves writing for Sam. I think they are all long gone however.
Frankly, Cas is the real Big Damn Hero on the show these days. He's out there on his own, fighting the good fight, making the hard choices, doing what needs to be done, even sacrificing if it means making the morally correct choice rather than the choice that means he "wins." He is so inspiring that other angels come to him to guide him, although he humbly protests that he's no leader. Maybe the spinoff should be Cas and Mrs. Tran, since they are the badass heros these days.

"Dean will need to verbalize to Sam what he already knows in his gut: he was wrong to take away Sam’s power to make a decision about the possession"

Oh Gerry, I hope that's true. As I look back (and please feel free to correct me, I'd love to be wrong on this), I don't recall a single indication from Dean that he does think it's wrong. It's always been more the "tough call" he had to make so that Sam wouldn't make the "wrong" one.
I'll grant you that Dean acknowledges it had a poor consequence in Kevin's murder, so he's sorry for THAT and that alone. Oh wait, he's also sorry that he lied to Castiel. That's why Dean apologized to Kevin and to Cas, but not to Sam- because he didn't wrong Sam in his mind.

"I didn’t take Kevin’s use of the word stupid to mean Sam’s pain is stupid, but rather that he’s allowed it to skew his perspective about Dean’s value in his life. "

Well, that's certainly an extremely generous way to look at it. Sorry, but you picked one word out of what Kevin said. The full thing was "Can you two get over it? The drama, the fighting? It’s stupid." Despite the "two" it's impossible to not see Kevin, like Cas, siding with Dean to just put some "W"s on the board and get past it. Despite what some in fandom think, absolutely NO ONE ON THE SHOW thinks Sam's anger is justified, so I'm starting to believe Show doesn't think so either. Otherwise why all the long protracted looks at Dean's manpain, while Sam slips away behind a closed door?

I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "Dean's value in his life" as well. Sam is still there, isn't he? Dean is the one who wanted to leave.

"Sam has been on a journey out of the story since season eight, which has been frustrating me. He’s either deciding he doesn’t need to be a hero and other people can hunt evil, or he’s thinking he’s only good for sacrifice. What he doesn’t seem to be able to envision is being comfortable as Sam Winchester, Man of Letters and Hunter. I hope his arc will be re-evaluating his own worth and therefore, his survival."

After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before, Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad.

"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.
I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.

Thank you
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 16:07
Quote:
"I am happy to say Robert Berens’ “Captives” has settled some of my doubts about Supernatural’s story line this season."
Please bottle and send some of that optimism to me, because this ep has me questioning if I should continue.

"I do wish someone on that staff loved writing Sam the way Berens loves to write Cas."

You and me both, good sir! I wish there was a single writer left on staff that loves writing for Sam. I think they are all long gone however.
Frankly, Cas is the real Big Damn Hero on the show these days. He's out there on his own, fighting the good fight, making the hard choices, doing what needs to be done, even sacrificing if it means making the morally correct choice rather than the choice that means he "wins." He is so inspiring that other angels come to him to guide him, although he humbly protests that he's no leader. Maybe the spinoff should be Cas and Mrs. Tran, since they are the badass heros these days.

"Dean will need to verbalize to Sam what he already knows in his gut: he was wrong to take away Sam’s power to make a decision about the possession"

Oh Gerry, I hope that's true. As I look back (and please feel free to correct me, I'd love to be wrong on this), I don't recall a single indication from Dean that he does think it's wrong. It's always been more the "tough call" he had to make so that Sam wouldn't make the "wrong" one.
I'll grant you that Dean acknowledges it had a poor consequence in Kevin's murder, so he's sorry for THAT and that alone. Oh wait, he's also sorry that he lied to Castiel. That's why Dean apologized to Kevin and to Cas, but not to Sam- because he didn't wrong Sam in his mind.

"I didn’t take Kevin’s use of the word stupid to mean Sam’s pain is stupid, but rather that he’s allowed it to skew his perspective about Dean’s value in his life. "

Well, that's certainly an extremely generous way to look at it. Sorry, but you picked one word out of what Kevin said. The full thing was "Can you two get over it? The drama, the fighting? It’s stupid." Despite the "two" it's impossible to not see Kevin, like Cas, siding with Dean to just put some "W"s on the board and get past it. Despite what some in fandom think, absolutely NO ONE ON THE SHOW thinks Sam's anger is justified, so I'm starting to believe Show doesn't think so either. Otherwise why all the long protracted looks at Dean's manpain, while Sam slips away behind a closed door?

I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "Dean's value in his life" as well. Sam is still there, isn't he? Dean is the one who wanted to leave.

"Sam has been on a journey out of the story since season eight, which has been frustrating me. He’s either deciding he doesn’t need to be a hero and other people can hunt evil, or he’s thinking he’s only good for sacrifice. What he doesn’t seem to be able to envision is being comfortable as Sam Winchester, Man of Letters and Hunter. I hope his arc will be re-evaluating his own worth and therefore, his survival."

After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before, Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad.

"Last episode what I found upsetting was the way Sam framed his issues with Dean. His scope was huge with oddly drawn boundaries."

I've wanted to argue this (and I still believe it's fundamentally wrong) but I've realized that you are right. At least, that's how Show is trying to present it, as right.
I just realized today, what Show is trying to say- Sam had let his feelings screw up his perspective, so he says "mean things" BUT Something Important will happen to Dean (probably because of the Mark), Sam will see how wrong he is, Sam will apologize to Dean, he'll be so sorry that he ever doubted their brotherly bond (there will never be an apology from Dean to Sam) and then we will move on to Season 10.

And I'll be done.
Thank you
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 16:26
Quoting Gerry:
Hi, Rick D! My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life. Whether he will ever get there, I don't know. I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.

But I do think we've seen he knows he should have told Sam as soon as he could and let Sam make the final determination on that course of action. His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.

His own instincts told him to tell Sam, never mind all the hurt and betrayal Sam feels now. But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.

I think the boys will eventually get to the point where they hash things out and I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy. I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for. Perhaps they both need to walk in each other's shoes first and that's coming up. That's just my take, though. We'll see where the story goes.

Not necessarily,Dea n had time and conversations before that "presentation" to apologize and he did not.He simply is not seeing anything wrong with Sam possessed.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-03-03 16:26
Quote:
Hi, Rick D! My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life. Whether he will ever get there, I don't know. I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.

But I do think we've seen he knows he should have told Sam as soon as he could and let Sam make the final determination on that course of action. His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.

His own instincts told him to tell Sam, never mind all the hurt and betrayal Sam feels now. But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.

I think the boys will eventually get to the point where they hash things out and I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy. I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for. Perhaps they both need to walk in each other's shoes first and that's coming up. That's just my take, though. We'll see where the story goes.
Not necessarily,Dea n had time and conversations before that "presentation" to apologize and he did not.He simply is not seeing anything wrong with Sam possessed.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-03 16:27
#151 "After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before"

I agree completely. It seems the writers can't be bothered to give Sam an arc.

"Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad"

It's been that way for a great many seasons. I'm hoping JC can change it so that both brothers have a POV and an arc. What bugs me is other shows can do this with more starring characters than 2, but SPN seems to be unable to.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-03-03 16:27
#151 "After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before"

I agree completely. It seems the writers can't be bothered to give Sam an arc.

"Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad"

It's been that way for a great many seasons. I'm hoping JC can change it so that both brothers have a POV and an arc. What bugs me is other shows can do this with more starring characters than 2, but SPN seems to be unable to.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 16:49
But Gadreel did threaten Sam's life everytime Dean wanted to tell Sam. Gad told him Sam wasn't ready. Basically he was telling Dean that Sam would die. Since Gad had access to all of Sam's thoughts and feelings he knew just what buttons to push with Dean. Threaten Sam and Dean will back down. He was essentially holding Sam and Dean hostage. I don't think he had any intention of giving up his vessel. He wasn't going to let Dean talk to Sam about anything he didn't want discussed. Even when Dean began to suspect that Gad was listening to everything that was being said he was still trusting the angel. When Cas spilled the beans about Zeke (who had vouched for Zeke and the biggest reason why Dean trusted the angel in the first place) that was when Dean saw it all going sideways. Up until that point I really feel that Dean thought this was going to happen- the angel would heal Sam, Dean would confess, Sam would get pissed, but then see that Dean had actually done a good thing because not only was Sam alive a good angel was saved as well. I am sure that is how it played out in his mind. Not only did the end justify the means it was a really good thing. Even Sam would see that. Of course the lesson that Dean hasn't learned since he is now in a deal with Crowely, that deals have never been a good thing. They always have a catch and sometimes it is a doozy.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 16:49
But Gadreel did threaten Sam's life everytime Dean wanted to tell Sam. Gad told him Sam wasn't ready. Basically he was telling Dean that Sam would die. Since Gad had access to all of Sam's thoughts and feelings he knew just what buttons to push with Dean. Threaten Sam and Dean will back down. He was essentially holding Sam and Dean hostage. I don't think he had any intention of giving up his vessel. He wasn't going to let Dean talk to Sam about anything he didn't want discussed. Even when Dean began to suspect that Gad was listening to everything that was being said he was still trusting the angel. When Cas spilled the beans about Zeke (who had vouched for Zeke and the biggest reason why Dean trusted the angel in the first place) that was when Dean saw it all going sideways. Up until that point I really feel that Dean thought this was going to happen- the angel would heal Sam, Dean would confess, Sam would get pissed, but then see that Dean had actually done a good thing because not only was Sam alive a good angel was saved as well. I am sure that is how it played out in his mind. Not only did the end justify the means it was a really good thing. Even Sam would see that. Of course the lesson that Dean hasn't learned since he is now in a deal with Crowely, that deals have never been a good thing. They always have a catch and sometimes it is a doozy.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 18:05
Quoting cheryl42:
But Gadreel did threaten Sam's life everytime Dean wanted to tell Sam. Gad told him Sam wasn't ready. Basically he was telling Dean that Sam would die. Since Gad had access to all of Sam's thoughts and feelings he knew just what buttons to push with Dean. Threaten Sam and Dean will back down. He was essentially holding Sam and Dean hostage. I don't think he had any intention of giving up his vessel. He wasn't going to let Dean talk to Sam about anything he didn't want discussed. Even when Dean began to suspect that Gad was listening to everything that was being said he was still trusting the angel. When Cas spilled the beans about Zeke (who had vouched for Zeke and the biggest reason why Dean trusted the angel in the first place) that was when Dean saw it all going sideways. Up until that point I really feel that Dean thought this was going to happen- the angel would heal Sam, Dean would confess, Sam would get pissed, but then see that Dean had actually done a good thing because not only was Sam alive a good angel was saved as well. I am sure that is how it played out in his mind. Not only did the end justify the means it was a really good thing. Even Sam would see that. Of course the lesson that Dean hasn't learned since he is now in a deal with Crowely, that deals have never been a good thing. They always have a catch and sometimes it is a doozy.


We see this differently. Gadreel didn't threaten to KILL Sam, he just said that if Sam knew what was going on Sam would make a choice that Dean wouldn't like. That is the whole point to me. When Sam was in a coma and about to move on, Dean made a choice out of panic and the fact that if he didn't trick Sam, Sam would be dead right then. But afterwards, Dean kept Sam from making his own decisions about his medical care. That is the issue. People give Health Care Power of Attorneys to others so if they are not able to make decisions about medical procedures, then someone they trust will make them. If that person decides on a course of treatment and the patient wakes up, and is sane and rational (Sam was both) then the patient gets to decide if they want to continue with the treatment. The person with the HCPOA doesn't get to keep on making decisions for them. The whole problem is Dean not only refused to give Sam the right to make a decision, he refused to let Sam know there was even a decision to be made. Saying Sam would rather die than be possessed by Gadreel is not threatening Sam's life, it's giving the decision over to Sam, who it rightfully belongs to. Dean didn't trust Sam to make the decision that Dean wanted. So he kept Sam in ignorance. Even worse he lied to Sam about Sam's own perceptions. "What happened with the demons Dean?" "Uh, I, your big, strong, brave brother fought and killed all three by myself while you were passed out like a useless little girl on the floor" "How did Cas survive" "I, your big strong, brave persuasive brother talked the Reaper around and then killed her while you and Cas were passed out, like useless little girls". "Dean, I'm losing time and I think something is wrong" "No you're not Sammy, you're imagining it all the trials messed you up so much you can't even tell what is true. Who are you going to believe? Your ill, tired, confused useless self or your big, strong, brave, brother who kills three demons with a single blow and talks Reapers into not doing their duty" "Silly Sammy, how can you possibly believe in yourself when I'm telling you what really happens?"

In order to keep Sam from making his own decisions, Dean had to gaslight him and make him doubt his own mind and perceptions and undermine Sam's sense of being a capable human being.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 18:05
Quote:
But Gadreel did threaten Sam's life everytime Dean wanted to tell Sam. Gad told him Sam wasn't ready. Basically he was telling Dean that Sam would die. Since Gad had access to all of Sam's thoughts and feelings he knew just what buttons to push with Dean. Threaten Sam and Dean will back down. He was essentially holding Sam and Dean hostage. I don't think he had any intention of giving up his vessel. He wasn't going to let Dean talk to Sam about anything he didn't want discussed. Even when Dean began to suspect that Gad was listening to everything that was being said he was still trusting the angel. When Cas spilled the beans about Zeke (who had vouched for Zeke and the biggest reason why Dean trusted the angel in the first place) that was when Dean saw it all going sideways. Up until that point I really feel that Dean thought this was going to happen- the angel would heal Sam, Dean would confess, Sam would get pissed, but then see that Dean had actually done a good thing because not only was Sam alive a good angel was saved as well. I am sure that is how it played out in his mind. Not only did the end justify the means it was a really good thing. Even Sam would see that. Of course the lesson that Dean hasn't learned since he is now in a deal with Crowely, that deals have never been a good thing. They always have a catch and sometimes it is a doozy.
We see this differently. Gadreel didn't threaten to KILL Sam, he just said that if Sam knew what was going on Sam would make a choice that Dean wouldn't like. That is the whole point to me. When Sam was in a coma and about to move on, Dean made a choice out of panic and the fact that if he didn't trick Sam, Sam would be dead right then. But afterwards, Dean kept Sam from making his own decisions about his medical care. That is the issue. People give Health Care Power of Attorneys to others so if they are not able to make decisions about medical procedures, then someone they trust will make them. If that person decides on a course of treatment and the patient wakes up, and is sane and rational (Sam was both) then the patient gets to decide if they want to continue with the treatment. The person with the HCPOA doesn't get to keep on making decisions for them. The whole problem is Dean not only refused to give Sam the right to make a decision, he refused to let Sam know there was even a decision to be made. Saying Sam would rather die than be possessed by Gadreel is not threatening Sam's life, it's giving the decision over to Sam, who it rightfully belongs to. Dean didn't trust Sam to make the decision that Dean wanted. So he kept Sam in ignorance. Even worse he lied to Sam about Sam's own perceptions. "What happened with the demons Dean?" "Uh, I, your big, strong, brave brother fought and killed all three by myself while you were passed out like a useless little girl on the floor" "How did Cas survive" "I, your big strong, brave persuasive brother talked the Reaper around and then killed her while you and Cas were passed out, like useless little girls". "Dean, I'm losing time and I think something is wrong" "No you're not Sammy, you're imagining it all the trials messed you up so much you can't even tell what is true. Who are you going to believe? Your ill, tired, confused useless self or your big, strong, brave, brother who kills three demons with a single blow and talks Reapers into not doing their duty" "Silly Sammy, how can you possibly believe in yourself when I'm telling you what really happens?"

In order to keep Sam from making his own decisions, Dean had to gaslight him and make him doubt his own mind and perceptions and undermine Sam's sense of being a capable human being.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 19:10
Hi nappi @160 I see what you are saying and you may be right. But I remember that Dean didn't really want to let Ezekie/Gadreell possess Sam in the first place and he DID start to tell him on a few occasions. So his basic responses were true to Dean but, and this is a big but for me, the one thing that will make Dean lose focus and do something that goes against his smarter instincts is the thought of Sam's death. I think Gadreel was well aware of this. He knew exactly what buttons to push to keep Dean in line. I agree that Dean dreaded telling Sam but he did try to tell him, more than once, knowing full well there would be hell to pay. Gadreel had Dean right where he wanted to.

And this isn't directed at you at all nappi but I've see a few snide comments about the times Dean was prepared to kill his brother and they always forget to mention that in every instance Dean thought Sam was in danger of losing his humanity. And in every instance Dean tried everything to prevent that from happening. The implication that Dean really doesn't love his brother is often worked into posts and it gets to me eventually. His love often manifests as controlling and overly protective but I've no doubt it is there and always has been. :sigh:
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 19:10
Hi nappi @160 I see what you are saying and you may be right. But I remember that Dean didn't really want to let Ezekie/Gadreell possess Sam in the first place and he DID start to tell him on a few occasions. So his basic responses were true to Dean but, and this is a big but for me, the one thing that will make Dean lose focus and do something that goes against his smarter instincts is the thought of Sam's death. I think Gadreel was well aware of this. He knew exactly what buttons to push to keep Dean in line. I agree that Dean dreaded telling Sam but he did try to tell him, more than once, knowing full well there would be hell to pay. Gadreel had Dean right where he wanted to.

And this isn't directed at you at all nappi but I've see a few snide comments about the times Dean was prepared to kill his brother and they always forget to mention that in every instance Dean thought Sam was in danger of losing his humanity. And in every instance Dean tried everything to prevent that from happening. The implication that Dean really doesn't love his brother is often worked into posts and it gets to me eventually. His love often manifests as controlling and overly protective but I've no doubt it is there and always has been. :sigh:
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 19:31
I thought that Gadreel was telling Dean that if Sam knew the truth he might eject him and Sam would die. It is true he didn't threaten to kill Sam but the implication was that Sam would die. That is where Dean loses all perspective. He can't make rational decisions when Sam's life is at stake. I think that is why Sam told him that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they are brothers. The lengths that Dean will go to to save his brother has caused more harm than good. Gadreel was an angel basically on the run. He was the most despised angel in all of heaven. He didn't want to leave the sanctity of the bunker or his strong new vessel. He played Dean and Dean wanted to believe that it was all going to work out so bad he went along with it. Sam didn't want to be saved especially not like that. He didn't need Dean to be his hero, but Dean (again because Cas vouched for Zeke) thought that it was all going to work out. It didn't and now Sam, Kevin, Abner and who knows who else is paying the price. I am just trying to look at this from Dean's POV. I agree Sam has every right to be angry and in no way should he apologize for anything. Not for anything he did or anything he said. This is all on Dean as far as I am concerned I can just see how he got here.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 19:31
I thought that Gadreel was telling Dean that if Sam knew the truth he might eject him and Sam would die. It is true he didn't threaten to kill Sam but the implication was that Sam would die. That is where Dean loses all perspective. He can't make rational decisions when Sam's life is at stake. I think that is why Sam told him that everything that has gone wrong between them is because they are brothers. The lengths that Dean will go to to save his brother has caused more harm than good. Gadreel was an angel basically on the run. He was the most despised angel in all of heaven. He didn't want to leave the sanctity of the bunker or his strong new vessel. He played Dean and Dean wanted to believe that it was all going to work out so bad he went along with it. Sam didn't want to be saved especially not like that. He didn't need Dean to be his hero, but Dean (again because Cas vouched for Zeke) thought that it was all going to work out. It didn't and now Sam, Kevin, Abner and who knows who else is paying the price. I am just trying to look at this from Dean's POV. I agree Sam has every right to be angry and in no way should he apologize for anything. Not for anything he did or anything he said. This is all on Dean as far as I am concerned I can just see how he got here.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 19:49
Quoting percysowner:

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.


Sorry, PercyO, you know I love you and I totally get what you are coming from, but you have a better chance of winning the lottery than Show admitting Dean has betrayed Sam.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 19:49
Quote:

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.
Sorry, PercyO, you know I love you and I totally get what you are coming from, but you have a better chance of winning the lottery than Show admitting Dean has betrayed Sam.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 20:12
Quoting anonymousN -"Not necessarily,Dea n had time and conversations before that "presentation" to apologize and he did not.He simply is not seeing anything wrong with Sam possessed."

I don't agree with this. I think Dean is very aware of how wrong it is or he wouldn't have agonized over it so much and attempted to tell Sam on a few occasions. He was reluctant from the get -go and then time ran out and he did what he thought he had to do to save Sam. He can't see beyond saving Sam. I do think he will eventually apologize to Sam. Sam has been defended for not being ready to talk about this when Dean tried. I don't think Dean is at the point yet either where he can be objective either, he is in a defensive posture and cannot see a time when he could let Sam die. I think he will get there or at the very least come to understand Sam's anger.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 20:12
Quoting anonymousN -"Not necessarily,Dea n had time and conversations before that "presentation" to apologize and he did not.He simply is not seeing anything wrong with Sam possessed."

I don't agree with this. I think Dean is very aware of how wrong it is or he wouldn't have agonized over it so much and attempted to tell Sam on a few occasions. He was reluctant from the get -go and then time ran out and he did what he thought he had to do to save Sam. He can't see beyond saving Sam. I do think he will eventually apologize to Sam. Sam has been defended for not being ready to talk about this when Dean tried. I don't think Dean is at the point yet either where he can be objective either, he is in a defensive posture and cannot see a time when he could let Sam die. I think he will get there or at the very least come to understand Sam's anger.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 20:16
Quoting Rick D:
Quoting percysowner:

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.


Sorry, PercyO, you know I love you and I totally get what you are coming from, but you have a better chance of winning the lottery than Show admitting Dean has betrayed Sam.


You are probably right, but I will hope that maybe they will admit that Dean did betray Sam. I know, I'm foolish, but until I have to I'm going to be slightly hopeful, because if I have to watch Sam admit that he was wrong to be angry, I don't know if I can continue.

As to the "snide" comments about Dean being willing to kill Sam, since I have brought it up at times, let me clarify. The justification for Dean allowing Sam's body to violated is because he can't live without Sam. That there is no me without you. That he loves Sam so much that any an all violations of Sam are because THERE IS NO WAY he can live without Sam. But Dean's actions don't support that. He is willing to consider Sam being dead whenever DEAN decides Sam is in danger of losing his humanity. He decides when Sam is "human enough" to live and in danger of losing his his humanity, so that it is acceptable if Sam dies. All I'm saying is Dean's excuses for why he is right are not necessarily accurate. And I think that it is important to remember that Dean was the one who put Sam in the position of not being "human enough" to live this time by PUTTING Gadreel into Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-03-03 20:16
Quote:
Quote:

I am hoping these actions were inserted because Dean and fans can NOT pretend that Sam wasn't hurt by and opposed to Dean relying on angels and vampires. I hope they are trying to subtly show that Dean has betrayed Sam on many levels.
Sorry, PercyO, you know I love you and I totally get what you are coming from, but you have a better chance of winning the lottery than Show admitting Dean has betrayed Sam.
You are probably right, but I will hope that maybe they will admit that Dean did betray Sam. I know, I'm foolish, but until I have to I'm going to be slightly hopeful, because if I have to watch Sam admit that he was wrong to be angry, I don't know if I can continue.

As to the "snide" comments about Dean being willing to kill Sam, since I have brought it up at times, let me clarify. The justification for Dean allowing Sam's body to violated is because he can't live without Sam. That there is no me without you. That he loves Sam so much that any an all violations of Sam are because THERE IS NO WAY he can live without Sam. But Dean's actions don't support that. He is willing to consider Sam being dead whenever DEAN decides Sam is in danger of losing his humanity. He decides when Sam is "human enough" to live and in danger of losing his his humanity, so that it is acceptable if Sam dies. All I'm saying is Dean's excuses for why he is right are not necessarily accurate. And I think that it is important to remember that Dean was the one who put Sam in the position of not being "human enough" to live this time by PUTTING Gadreel into Sam.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 20:33
Quoting Gerry:
Hi, Rick D!


Hi Gerry. Thanks for replying to my post. Although you make me even more curious- no thoughts about Cas being the biggest hero on Show now?
Still think Sam has an arc coming that involves him finding his value as a person? (despite a lack of any supporting evidence)

Quoting Gerry:
My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life.


Well, let me help with that. That'll happen right before Dean's apology, that is to say - never.

Quoting Gerry:
I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.


I do love your sense of humor, Gerry.

Quoting Gerry:
His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.


In this regard, you are absolutely correct. Which is why I am so stumped about why Dean doesn't just say so. It would go SO FAR to fixing this little drama, which is I guess why it doesn't happen as the writers want to drag this out. Unless as some have suggested, the Mark is affecting Dean.

Quoting Gerry:
But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.


Oh come on now. Dean Winchester is gonna hesitate about what he wants to say, because of Sam's expectations? When has that ever happened?

Quoting Gerry:
I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy.


I doubt it, but they say miracles never cease.

Quoting Gerry:
I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for.


As if that matters.

Quoting Gerry:
We'll see where the story goes.


Some will. I'll watch the next ep for the laughs, but if either of those Ghostfacing idiots says "Your drama is so stupid, just get over it," it'll probably be my last.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 20:33
Quote:
Hi, Rick D!
Hi Gerry. Thanks for replying to my post. Although you make me even more curious- no thoughts about Cas being the biggest hero on Show now?
Still think Sam has an arc coming that involves him finding his value as a person? (despite a lack of any supporting evidence)

Quote:
My take on Dean's feelings is that he is not yet at a point where he feels he shouldn't have saved Sam's life.
Well, let me help with that. That'll happen right before Dean's apology, that is to say - never.

Quote:
I think the show has suggested Sam's decision to die is something in itself to be examined.
I do love your sense of humor, Gerry.

Quote:
His lies to Sam were shown to be eating him up all season and he tried to tell Sam twice, once right after the possession and again in the goddess episode.
In this regard, you are absolutely correct. Which is why I am so stumped about why Dean doesn't just say so. It would go SO FAR to fixing this little drama, which is I guess why it doesn't happen as the writers want to drag this out. Unless as some have suggested, the Mark is affecting Dean.

Quote:
But that apology seems stalled and I suspect it's because the way it's been presented now, his apology has to be for saving Sam's life, for his view of family, for saving Sam at the church, for his actions going back to to the pilot.
Oh come on now. Dean Winchester is gonna hesitate about what he wants to say, because of Sam's expectations? When has that ever happened?

Quote:
I think Dean will apologize for not respecting Sam's autonomy.
I doubt it, but they say miracles never cease.

Quote:
I also suspect Sam will narrow the focus of what needs to be apologized for.
As if that matters.

Quote:
We'll see where the story goes.
Some will. I'll watch the next ep for the laughs, but if either of those Ghostfacing idiots says "Your drama is so stupid, just get over it," it'll probably be my last.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 20:38
You're welcome anonymousN, glad you approve of my post.

Quoting anonymousN:

Not necessarily,Dean had time and conversations before that "presentation" to apologize and he did not.He simply is not seeing anything wrong with Sam possessed.


Exactly.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 20:38
You're welcome anonymousN, glad you approve of my post.

Quote:

Not necessarily,Dean had time and conversations before that "presentation" to apologize and he did not.He simply is not seeing anything wrong with Sam possessed.
Exactly.
eilf
# eilf 2014-03-03 20:39
You know it is interesting that Gadreel talked a good game but he never really followed through when it came to Sam.

He DID work on healing him.

He hid Sam in a dream that was comfortable for Sam, having him thinking he was out constantly fighting demons or something would have kept Sam more distracted, this dream having him resting at home researching would be much better for healing.

He threatened to tear Sam apart but he didn't even remotely try...one little bit of damage like that would have been enough to scare Dean into doing whatever but he didn't actually do it.

He did kill people but it was as clinically done as possible - I think that he wouldn't torture people...

He tried to beat Sam by logic(as well as choking him, and honestly if Sam took it personally every time someone tried to choke him .... yeah, ok there isn't any getting around that as a last resort Gadreel went for violence ....) and you have to wonder what the result would have been of Gadreel 'killing' Sam in his own head, instead of in reality?

Anyway it isn't so much that I am trying to defend him, just that so far he has really seemed less ruthless than any other angel we have met (including Cas)
eilf
# eilf 2014-03-03 20:39
You know it is interesting that Gadreel talked a good game but he never really followed through when it came to Sam.

He DID work on healing him.

He hid Sam in a dream that was comfortable for Sam, having him thinking he was out constantly fighting demons or something would have kept Sam more distracted, this dream having him resting at home researching would be much better for healing.

He threatened to tear Sam apart but he didn't even remotely try...one little bit of damage like that would have been enough to scare Dean into doing whatever but he didn't actually do it.

He did kill people but it was as clinically done as possible - I think that he wouldn't torture people...

He tried to beat Sam by logic(as well as choking him, and honestly if Sam took it personally every time someone tried to choke him .... yeah, ok there isn't any getting around that as a last resort Gadreel went for violence ....) and you have to wonder what the result would have been of Gadreel 'killing' Sam in his own head, instead of in reality?

Anyway it isn't so much that I am trying to defend him, just that so far he has really seemed less ruthless than any other angel we have met (including Cas)
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 20:40
Quoting Jo1027:
#151 "After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before"

I agree completely. It seems the writers can't be bothered to give Sam an arc.

"Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad"

It's been that way for a great many seasons. I'm hoping JC can change it so that both brothers have a POV and an arc. What bugs me is other shows can do this with more starring characters than 2, but SPN seems to be unable to.


It's really bizarre isn't it? And it hasn't always been this way. As you said, some shows have lots of important characters, this show has one. Two if you count Castiel.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 20:40
Quote:
#151 "After this ep, I'm seriously doubting Sam has an arc at all. Again, as many times before"

I agree completely. It seems the writers can't be bothered to give Sam an arc.

"Sam is merely a device to make Dean feel bad"

It's been that way for a great many seasons. I'm hoping JC can change it so that both brothers have a POV and an arc. What bugs me is other shows can do this with more starring characters than 2, but SPN seems to be unable to.
It's really bizarre isn't it? And it hasn't always been this way. As you said, some shows have lots of important characters, this show has one. Two if you count Castiel.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 20:58
eilf Up until he fought with Sam in Sam's head I thought of Gadreel as a very confused angel that thought he was doing the right, noble thing for his brothers the angels. He wanted so bad for redemption for his sins. But the angel that showed up in Sam's head looked very angry. He looked like he was going to do whatever it took to stay in control. So now I don't know what he is going to turn out to be. There can be no redemption for killing Kevin so I can't imagine other than either Sam or Dean getting their revenge what more purpose he can have to the story.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 20:58
eilf Up until he fought with Sam in Sam's head I thought of Gadreel as a very confused angel that thought he was doing the right, noble thing for his brothers the angels. He wanted so bad for redemption for his sins. But the angel that showed up in Sam's head looked very angry. He looked like he was going to do whatever it took to stay in control. So now I don't know what he is going to turn out to be. There can be no redemption for killing Kevin so I can't imagine other than either Sam or Dean getting their revenge what more purpose he can have to the story.
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-03 21:02
Quoting eilf:
You know it is interesting that Gadreel talked a good game but he never really followed through when it came to Sam.

He DID work on healing him.

He hid Sam in a dream that was comfortable for Sam, having him thinking he was out constantly fighting demons or something would have kept Sam more distracted, this dream having him resting at home researching would be much better for healing.

He threatened to tear Sam apart but he didn't even remotely try...one little bit of damage like that would have been enough to scare Dean into doing whatever but he didn't actually do it.

He did kill people but it was as clinically done as possible - I think that he wouldn't torture people...

He tried to beat Sam by logic(as well as choking him, and honestly if Sam took it personally every time someone tried to choke him .... yeah, ok there isn't any getting around that as a last resort Gadreel went for violence ....) and you have to wonder what the result would have been of Gadreel 'killing' Sam in his own head, instead of in reality?

Anyway it isn't so much that I am trying to defend him, just that so far he has really seemed less ruthless than any other angel we have met (including Cas)


I've been enjoying the conversation between ya'll. Just wanted to pop in and say...based how much support GAreel is getting from fans I'm expecting the writers are goiing to have SAM apologize to GADREEL for expelling him.

And then I will also call that GAdreel was introduced for the express purpose of being the one to rescue/save Dean and thus then Sam will be schooled ifor daring to want Free Will and an equal partnership.
amyh
# amyh 2014-03-03 21:02
Quote:
You know it is interesting that Gadreel talked a good game but he never really followed through when it came to Sam.

He DID work on healing him.

He hid Sam in a dream that was comfortable for Sam, having him thinking he was out constantly fighting demons or something would have kept Sam more distracted, this dream having him resting at home researching would be much better for healing.

He threatened to tear Sam apart but he didn't even remotely try...one little bit of damage like that would have been enough to scare Dean into doing whatever but he didn't actually do it.

He did kill people but it was as clinically done as possible - I think that he wouldn't torture people...

He tried to beat Sam by logic(as well as choking him, and honestly if Sam took it personally every time someone tried to choke him .... yeah, ok there isn't any getting around that as a last resort Gadreel went for violence ....) and you have to wonder what the result would have been of Gadreel 'killing' Sam in his own head, instead of in reality?

Anyway it isn't so much that I am trying to defend him, just that so far he has really seemed less ruthless than any other angel we have met (including Cas)
I've been enjoying the conversation between ya'll. Just wanted to pop in and say...based how much support GAreel is getting from fans I'm expecting the writers are goiing to have SAM apologize to GADREEL for expelling him.

And then I will also call that GAdreel was introduced for the express purpose of being the one to rescue/save Dean and thus then Sam will be schooled ifor daring to want Free Will and an equal partnership.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 21:05
Gerry, just a note to clarify, because I don't want you to just think of me as a bitter SamBoy. I mean, I AM a bitter SamBoy, but that's not all I am.

I'm not saying that Dean won't apologize and Sam's issues will never be addressed- because I think Dean is a bad guy.
No way. Dean is a great guy, a hero, and if we still had the writers we had in the past, I think Dean would have apologized right away. But those writers are gone.

It's the new writers who don't want Dean to apologize.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-03-03 21:05
Gerry, just a note to clarify, because I don't want you to just think of me as a bitter SamBoy. I mean, I AM a bitter SamBoy, but that's not all I am.

I'm not saying that Dean won't apologize and Sam's issues will never be addressed- because I think Dean is a bad guy.
No way. Dean is a great guy, a hero, and if we still had the writers we had in the past, I think Dean would have apologized right away. But those writers are gone.

It's the new writers who don't want Dean to apologize.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 21:21
leah d I agree with you about Dean. He didn't get to this point from out of nowhere. He didn't have Sam possessed just to control Sam's life he did it to save Sam's life. He panicked made a decision he knew he was going to have to pay for. He just didn't know it was going to be this high of a price. Dean doesn't know how to make things right with Sam. He hasn't figured that out yet. I don't think he can honestly see how Sam being alive is a bad thing. He will learn in the end and hopefully be a stronger person and brother because of it. And I know this is an unpopular opinion on this board but I really think that Sam is going to have to forgive Dean to save him. I don't mean apologize I mean forgive. Sam's forgiveness is really the only one that Dean wants. He just doesn't know how to get there.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-03-03 21:21
leah d I agree with you about Dean. He didn't get to this point from out of nowhere. He didn't have Sam possessed just to control Sam's life he did it to save Sam's life. He panicked made a decision he knew he was going to have to pay for. He just didn't know it was going to be this high of a price. Dean doesn't know how to make things right with Sam. He hasn't figured that out yet. I don't think he can honestly see how Sam being alive is a bad thing. He will learn in the end and hopefully be a stronger person and brother because of it. And I know this is an unpopular opinion on this board but I really think that Sam is going to have to forgive Dean to save him. I don't mean apologize I mean forgive. Sam's forgiveness is really the only one that Dean wants. He just doesn't know how to get there.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 21:36
@ 161 I knew this would be brought up. I won't defend Dean for his decision. However things from the past keep getting thrown into the conversation as examples of Dean's willingness (eagerness?) to kill his brother without any context. The fact that Dean put Sam in this position this time is not lost on me.

Quoting percysowner- "And just as a note, before we get too caught up in the idea that Dean can't live with the thought of Sam dying, the second he found out that Gadreel had fooled him and killed Kevin his first and only idea was to KILL SAM to get Gadreel. It took Cas talking him down to stop him from offing his beloved brother."

If this is not a snide comment, then I apologize. I think that Dean thought that Sam was lost due to the possession of an apparently 'evil' entity, which Dean allowed to enter Sam's body but when Cas presented the idea that maybe Sam could be saved Dean immediately agreed to try it. Offing his "beloved brother" wasn't the objective IMO. Yes it was entirely Dean's fault that Sam was in that position. No argument there.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 21:36
@ 161 I knew this would be brought up. I won't defend Dean for his decision. However things from the past keep getting thrown into the conversation as examples of Dean's willingness (eagerness?) to kill his brother without any context. The fact that Dean put Sam in this position this time is not lost on me.

Quoting percysowner- "And just as a note, before we get too caught up in the idea that Dean can't live with the thought of Sam dying, the second he found out that Gadreel had fooled him and killed Kevin his first and only idea was to KILL SAM to get Gadreel. It took Cas talking him down to stop him from offing his beloved brother."

If this is not a snide comment, then I apologize. I think that Dean thought that Sam was lost due to the possession of an apparently 'evil' entity, which Dean allowed to enter Sam's body but when Cas presented the idea that maybe Sam could be saved Dean immediately agreed to try it. Offing his "beloved brother" wasn't the objective IMO. Yes it was entirely Dean's fault that Sam was in that position. No argument there.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 21:42
[quote name="cheryl42"
hey cheryl. listen, i'm going to counter your dean pov with what i feel, based on history and sacrifice to be sam's. by doing that i think we'll be able to see wherein lies the problem these two are having at the moment.
we know that sam's issue with dean is that he feels like he's always disappointed him. he's a failure and because of that dean cannot trust in sam to make his own decisions. it has nothing to do with dean's absolute trust in sam as a capable hunter. in the church sam's speech to dean: what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again? who are you going to turn to next time instead of me? another angel? another vampire? after dean's response that no one comes before him, i believe sam believed that dean meant he would never trust anyone above sam. so, what's the first thing dean did after that speech? he didn't trust in sam to make a decision. he did in fact trust in an angel though. an angel he never met. see what sam is seeing here? dean said no one came before him, which sam believed dean meant he'd trust no one before him, but dean turned to an angel instead of him. what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again, who are you gonna turn to instead of me? another angel? another vampire? dean decided sam can't be trusted again and he in fact turned to another angel...that's why sam questioned dean's motivations in the church. dean made sam believe that none of it was true...and then he went back on his promise at the church. i think this is a big part of where sam's pain is coming from and why he told dean he can't trust him. not so much about tricking him, but because he thinks he was lying at the church.
problem now is dean has made no effort in trying to make things right again. when sam raised lucifer in s5, the first thing he did was apologize to dean. as a matter of fact he apologized alot. but more than that, he admitted to dean that he couldn't blame ruby, or dean or the demon blood. it was in him. sam took responsibility for his actions. when he realized he could control himself around db, he called on dean to take him back. he wanted to make things right. again, sam made an effort, he was trying. he proved himself to dean eppy after eppy ..sam really worked hard to get dean to trust in him again. it took him 17 episodes but sam never gave up trying. he worked at fixing what he broke.
the problem now is dean has made no effort to try to fix things with sam. he hasn't said he was sorry, not once.. he hasn't taken responsibility for what he did wrong. sam opened the door by telling dean that for now they could be partners, but dean hasn't done anything to fix things. instead his pride has taken over. i don't break that easy. too bad , because if dean had broke then at least sam knew dean was trying to make it right. at the end of the purge, again sam opened the door to talk, but still nothing from dean. he hasn't made any effort in trying to fix things with sam. if i'm sam, the lack of effort on dean's part would hurt me just as much as his lack of trust.
so from sam's pov, his lack of effort in trying to fix things reaffirms his belief that his brother has no faith in him and will never trust him to make his own decisions. :sad:
dean needs to start trying or this misunderstandin g, which i think it is, will perpetuate and round and round we go. sam has made the effort so far, he's opened the door twice already, dean has to do something now... if dean doesn't start to work at it, the way sam had worked so hard to fix it with dean not so long ago, sam's going to start to believe that dean doesn't truly value their brotherhood.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 21:42
[quote name="cheryl42"
hey cheryl. listen, i'm going to counter your dean pov with what i feel, based on history and sacrifice to be sam's. by doing that i think we'll be able to see wherein lies the problem these two are having at the moment.
we know that sam's issue with dean is that he feels like he's always disappointed him. he's a failure and because of that dean cannot trust in sam to make his own decisions. it has nothing to do with dean's absolute trust in sam as a capable hunter. in the church sam's speech to dean: what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again? who are you going to turn to next time instead of me? another angel? another vampire? after dean's response that no one comes before him, i believe sam believed that dean meant he would never trust anyone above sam. so, what's the first thing dean did after that speech? he didn't trust in sam to make a decision. he did in fact trust in an angel though. an angel he never met. see what sam is seeing here? dean said no one came before him, which sam believed dean meant he'd trust no one before him, but dean turned to an angel instead of him. what happens when you decide i can't be trusted again, who are you gonna turn to instead of me? another angel? another vampire? dean decided sam can't be trusted again and he in fact turned to another angel...that's why sam questioned dean's motivations in the church. dean made sam believe that none of it was true...and then he went back on his promise at the church. i think this is a big part of where sam's pain is coming from and why he told dean he can't trust him. not so much about tricking him, but because he thinks he was lying at the church.
problem now is dean has made no effort in trying to make things right again. when sam raised lucifer in s5, the first thing he did was apologize to dean. as a matter of fact he apologized alot. but more than that, he admitted to dean that he couldn't blame ruby, or dean or the demon blood. it was in him. sam took responsibility for his actions. when he realized he could control himself around db, he called on dean to take him back. he wanted to make things right. again, sam made an effort, he was trying. he proved himself to dean eppy after eppy ..sam really worked hard to get dean to trust in him again. it took him 17 episodes but sam never gave up trying. he worked at fixing what he broke.
the problem now is dean has made no effort to try to fix things with sam. he hasn't said he was sorry, not once.. he hasn't taken responsibility for what he did wrong. sam opened the door by telling dean that for now they could be partners, but dean hasn't done anything to fix things. instead his pride has taken over. i don't break that easy. too bad , because if dean had broke then at least sam knew dean was trying to make it right. at the end of the purge, again sam opened the door to talk, but still nothing from dean. he hasn't made any effort in trying to fix things with sam. if i'm sam, the lack of effort on dean's part would hurt me just as much as his lack of trust.
so from sam's pov, his lack of effort in trying to fix things reaffirms his belief that his brother has no faith in him and will never trust him to make his own decisions. :sad:
dean needs to start trying or this misunderstandin g, which i think it is, will perpetuate and round and round we go. sam has made the effort so far, he's opened the door twice already, dean has to do something now... if dean doesn't start to work at it, the way sam had worked so hard to fix it with dean not so long ago, sam's going to start to believe that dean doesn't truly value their brotherhood.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 21:53
#179-Cheryl, I love how you try and see things from all sides instead of piling all the blame on one brother or the other. I agree with you in that Dean was very wrong and need to recognize his mistakes and apologize to Sam for what he did and the way he did it. I do think Dean will have a harder time feeling bad that Sam is alive. I also firmly believe that Dean feels extremely horrible about Kevin no matter what he has said up to this point. Just because he said he would do it again, IMO, doesn't mean he is happy about what happened to Kevin and doesn't regret it. He just doesn't know how to NOT be glad that Sam is alive.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 21:53
#179-Cheryl, I love how you try and see things from all sides instead of piling all the blame on one brother or the other. I agree with you in that Dean was very wrong and need to recognize his mistakes and apologize to Sam for what he did and the way he did it. I do think Dean will have a harder time feeling bad that Sam is alive. I also firmly believe that Dean feels extremely horrible about Kevin no matter what he has said up to this point. Just because he said he would do it again, IMO, doesn't mean he is happy about what happened to Kevin and doesn't regret it. He just doesn't know how to NOT be glad that Sam is alive.
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 21:59
Nappi I think that Dean will get there. He is not at an objective place yet. Just because he hasn't apologized yet doesn't mean he won't. This is where I am optimistic. :-)
leah d
# leah d 2014-03-03 21:59
Nappi I think that Dean will get there. He is not at an objective place yet. Just because he hasn't apologized yet doesn't mean he won't. This is where I am optimistic. :-)
eilf
# eilf 2014-03-03 22:13
Quoting amyh:
Quoting eilf:
You know it is interesting that Gadreel talked a good game but he never really followed through when it came to Sam.

He DID work on healing him.

He hid Sam in a dream that was comfortable for Sam, having him thinking he was out constantly fighting demons or something would have kept Sam more distracted, this dream having him resting at home researching would be much better for healing.

He threatened to tear Sam apart but he didn't even remotely try...one little bit of damage like that would have been enough to scare Dean into doing whatever but he didn't actually do it.

He did kill people but it was as clinically done as possible - I think that he wouldn't torture people...

He tried to beat Sam by logic(as well as choking him, and honestly if Sam took it personally every time someone tried to choke him .... yeah, ok there isn't any getting around that as a last resort Gadreel went for violence ....) and you have to wonder what the result would have been of Gadreel 'killing' Sam in his own head, instead of in reality?

Anyway it isn't so much that I am trying to defend him, just that so far he has really seemed less ruthless than any other angel we have met (including Cas)


I've been enjoying the conversation between ya'll. Just wanted to pop in and say...based how much support GAreel is getting from fans I'm expecting the writers are goiing to have SAM apologize to GADREEL for expelling him.

And then I will also call that GAdreel was introduced for the express purpose of being the one to rescue/save Dean and thus then Sam will be schooled ifor daring to want Free Will and an equal partnership.

Hi Amyh, No I don't think that that will happen. I DO think the entire season could be The Mentalists (between Dean and Sam) and I will throw something at the TV and give up on the entire show if that happens.

But Sam and Gadreel is a dynamic that may turn out to be a little more complicated than just Gadreel being a badguy. It is possible that he could realize that Metatron is using him and then he might come around to needing to make up to the people he has wronged ... if the people he has wronged turned out to be Dean .... well I have a backup TV I can also throw things at if I have broken the first one ...
However in justice the person he wronged was Sam, and he could come back to Sam to atone. My thinking is just trying to get my head around whether he is a bad guy or a dutiful soldier..

It would be a great change in the show's dynamic if people came to Sam to offer help instead of going to Dean - after all at one point it was thought that Sam was going to be a leader (even if we didn't want him to be leading that particular army). By that stage it may be that Dean is away with his own Mark of Cain / Abbadon possession issues and in need of rescuing. Whether Sam involving Gadreel in the rescuing of Dean is something that works for you or not ... well I can't say :D If Sam AGREED to let Gadreel possess him again (temporarily) so that he were strong enough to go up against Dean possessed by Abbadon - I think that would be a cool storyline, but this is all wild speculation by me.

The Mentalists is still the most likely angle they are taking TBH.
eilf
# eilf 2014-03-03 22:13
Quote:
Quote:
You know it is interesting that Gadreel talked a good game but he never really followed through when it came to Sam.

He DID work on healing him.

He hid Sam in a dream that was comfortable for Sam, having him thinking he was out constantly fighting demons or something would have kept Sam more distracted, this dream having him resting at home researching would be much better for healing.

He threatened to tear Sam apart but he didn't even remotely try...one little bit of damage like that would have been enough to scare Dean into doing whatever but he didn't actually do it.

He did kill people but it was as clinically done as possible - I think that he wouldn't torture people...

He tried to beat Sam by logic(as well as choking him, and honestly if Sam took it personally every time someone tried to choke him .... yeah, ok there isn't any getting around that as a last resort Gadreel went for violence ....) and you have to wonder what the result would have been of Gadreel 'killing' Sam in his own head, instead of in reality?

Anyway it isn't so much that I am trying to defend him, just that so far he has really seemed less ruthless than any other angel we have met (including Cas)
I've been enjoying the conversation between ya'll. Just wanted to pop in and say...based how much support GAreel is getting from fans I'm expecting the writers are goiing to have SAM apologize to GADREEL for expelling him.

And then I will also call that GAdreel was introduced for the express purpose of being the one to rescue/save Dean and thus then Sam will be schooled ifor daring to want Free Will and an equal partnership.
Hi Amyh, No I don't think that that will happen. I DO think the entire season could be The Mentalists (between Dean and Sam) and I will throw something at the TV and give up on the entire show if that happens.

But Sam and Gadreel is a dynamic that may turn out to be a little more complicated than just Gadreel being a badguy. It is possible that he could realize that Metatron is using him and then he might come around to needing to make up to the people he has wronged ... if the people he has wronged turned out to be Dean .... well I have a backup TV I can also throw things at if I have broken the first one ...
However in justice the person he wronged was Sam, and he could come back to Sam to atone. My thinking is just trying to get my head around whether he is a bad guy or a dutiful soldier..

It would be a great change in the show's dynamic if people came to Sam to offer help instead of going to Dean - after all at one point it was thought that Sam was going to be a leader (even if we didn't want him to be leading that particular army). By that stage it may be that Dean is away with his own Mark of Cain / Abbadon possession issues and in need of rescuing. Whether Sam involving Gadreel in the rescuing of Dean is something that works for you or not ... well I can't say :D If Sam AGREED to let Gadreel possess him again (temporarily) so that he were strong enough to go up against Dean possessed by Abbadon - I think that would be a cool storyline, but this is all wild speculation by me.

The Mentalists is still the most likely angle they are taking TBH.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 22:14
Quoting leah d:
Nappi I think that Dean will get there. He is not at an objective place yet. Just because he hasn't apologized yet doesn't mean he won't. This is where I am optimistic. :-)

i have no doubts either. the apology is important for two reasons,
1. it shows sam that dean is trying. he's does care enough to try to fix things.
2. even if dean doesn't apologize for the right thing, it opens up the door for them to talk. to really talk. just lay it all out there. to understand where ea. is coming from.
it will lead to change...a good change. their relationship can only become stronger from finally and truly understanding ea. other.
i think after 10 years we all deserve that. i think that's where carver is headed.
i think the talk is coming soon and i am quite optimistic that s10 will be the year where the conflict that we get with the winchesters will come from outside sources and not ea. other. i'm ready for them to relate as equals. i'm especially ready for them to truly know ea. other, most likely for the very first time.

it's all good leah...i'm loving this season...and i'm excited for where we are headed....it's been a decade in the making. :lol:
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-03-03 22:14
Quote:
Nappi I think that Dean will get there. He is not at an objective place yet. Just because he hasn't apologized yet doesn't mean he won't. This is where I am optimistic. :-)
i have no doubts either. the apology is important for two reasons,
1. it shows sam that dean is trying. he's does care enough to try to fix things.
2. even if dean doesn't apologize for the right thing, it opens up the door for them to talk. to really talk. just lay it all out there. to understand where ea. is coming from.
it will lead to change...a good change. their relationship can only become stronger from finally and truly understanding ea. other.
i think after 10 years we all deserve that. i think that's where carver is headed.
i think the talk is coming soon and i am quite optimistic that s10 will be the year where the conflict that we get with the winchesters will come from outside sources and not ea. other. i'm ready for them to relate as equals. i'm especially ready for them to truly know ea. other, most likely for the very first time.

it's all good leah...i'm loving this season...and i'm excited for where we are headed....it's been a decade in the making. :lol:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-03-04 00:00
Quoting Rick D:
Quoting Gerry:
Hi, Rick D!


Hi Gerry. Thanks for replying to my post. Although you make me even more curious- no thoughts about Cas being the biggest hero on Show now?
Still think Sam has an arc coming that involves him finding his value as a person? (despite a lack of any supporting evidence)


I do think Cas is going to have a big arc, both because he's always been the representative of God's view of humanity and also because I think Jared and Jensen wanted more time off, so Misha is getting to carry a story line of his own. So far, it's worked. Whether it works for another season is another question, but who knows what's in store.

I think Cas has had a lot of build up to being a leader, so I'm on board with his arc. But I have been nervous about Sam's arc since season 8, because as far as I can see, it's all about Sam having finished his personal arc. And that makes little sense to me dramatically and just as little characterwise.

Kripke always said there were three arcs in play: Sam's, Dean's and SamNDean's. My own take on Sam's was that he had to find a way to feel comfortable in his own skin rather than try to be someone else and join someone else's family. He had to face his darkness, believe in his light and accept himself as Sam Winchester, not someone he has to lie to be.

However, I'm not sure where this set of writers is going with Sam. Maybe they do see his arc as having ended and he's content to walk off the stage, which is why he's not really grabbing any of the writers' attention.

But I hope it's more that he's still on a personal journey and he's not as comfortable with either dying or trying normal life as he projects. I think Cas's conversation hints that he is still carrying personal baggage that needs airing.

I also think Carver deliberately left it vague as to why Sam walked away from Amelia and rejoined hunting. He didn't really choose hunting or Dean, but he didn't really choose Amelia or civilian life. I think this season we'll see Sam finally make a definite choice and that will be his exercise of free will.

As for whether that leaves Cas as the most dynamic character on the show, I think when the Abbadon/Mark of Cain story gets going, the balance will be better. There are a lot of unconnected arcs dangling right now which need tightening up.