Reviewing this week’s Supernatural episode, “The Purge,” wasn’t easy on many levels. The monster of the week story offered some thrills, some chills, an excellent fight and Sam in a tank top. So far, so good, right? Then it followed last week’s format of closing with a short brother scene that punched the audience in the gut.

The monster story offered some horrific fat sucking visuals (only on Supernatural!), balanced out with some delicious gun shows of the right kind, as Sam slips into something more comfortable. Dean shows even a hairnet cannot fight the allure of his beard, and director Phil Sgriccia takes full advantage of scary dark basements. All in all, a well done stand alone, showing Sam and Dean working well together as hunters and throwing the odd comment to show they are not working so well as brothers.

Sam tanktop
But then writers Snyder and Charmelo had to throw in an ending brother chat which took away the hope I had last week we’d start clearing up some tensions and instead stripped the brotherhood bare in the worst possible way. The boys’ clothes stay on, but Sam decides to flay Dean’s illusions about their bond right out of his soul, one well placed stroke at a time.

Last week, Sam gave Dean his terms of working with him: they’ll split the nastiness of the life, but as co-workers, not brothers. The conversation was ambiguous enough there was a small sliver of hope Sam meant he felt they had work to do as brothers. As “The Purge” opens, Dean shows Sam exactly how he interpreted Sam’s words when he responds to Sam’s query about his state of mind by saying, “You mean, that we’re not brothers anymore?”

Instead of clarifying his previous words, Sam simply responds, “Good. Because I was just being honest.”

He takes that honesty up a notch in the final scene. Dean, whose drinking is increasing as his sleeping heads in the opposite direction, decides he and Sam really have to talk. It should be a good step, as fans have been wanting to whack the boys upside the head for some time now, with a stern, “Just talk!”

Well, be careful what you wish for, as they say.

Dean tells Sam he saved his life tonight, he saved it in the church, and he saved it in the hospital. He’s aware of the consent issues with the angel possession, as we’ve already seen. But the situation is not black and white to him. He tells Sam, “I may not think things all the way through but what I do, I do because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.”

Dean’s formative years with Sam had overtones of father and mother as well as brother, and that parental outlook may need a lighter touch with his adult brother, but once we have a parental outlook on someone, it never really goes away. And nothing will bring it out faster than the child being in danger, no matter how old the “child” is.

Sam has never had this kind of relationship with anyone. As the younger brother he is used to fighting for autonomy, but not being responsible for another person.  Dean’s words leave lots of room to engage his argument. There are different ways of defining the right thing, as Dean well knows. The right thing to do in “Swan Song” was to help Sam destroy himself, something Dean had fought so hard against but in the end realized he had to do, because that was the only way Sam could remain himself.  

But Sam doesn’t have access to Dean’s perspective and he doesn’t hear the spaces between Dean’s words where he could engage Dean in a way that makes sense to his brother. Instead of asking Dean to really look at how he’s defining the right thing, he focuses on judging his brother, which not only doesn’t help communication, it complicates the situation even more.

Sam Dean talking
Sam strikes at the heart of Dean’s rationale for being able to keep going despite the horrible losses and dreadful events they’ve undergone.

“You think you’re my saviour, my brother the hero, you swoop in and even when you mess up you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad. But you’re not. Kevin’s dead, Crowley’s in the wind, we’re no closer to winning this angel thing.”

Sam is close to being dismissive of Dean, telling his brother he’s done more bad than good as a hero, and he’s not just talking about what happened in the hospital or to Kevin. He broadened the scope last episode when he told Dean his attitude to family is the source of everything wrong that’s happened between them, including the scene in the church, and to my read, every difficult event they’ve undergone since the pilot. Sam doesn’t see anything situational about the issues between them. He sees the way Dean negotiates his life as the problem.

“But you, you didn’t want to be alone. And that’s what all this boils down to. You can’t stand the thought of being alone. I’ll give you this much. You are certainly willing to be the one doing the sacrificing, as long as you are not the one being hurt.”

It was this part of Sam’s speech that signalled to me I was going to have serious problems with this episode, this season and very possibly with Jeremy Carver’s tenure as showrunner. If these words truly sum up Sam’s view of Dean, then he does not know his brother, and if he doesn’t by now, I don’t see why he ever will.

I was simply stunned to hear Sam say that Dean Winchester is only willing to sacrifice himself as long it doesn’t cause him any pain. Dean Winchester. Not willing to accept being hurt for others. Really. Oh, Sam.

Yes, Dean doesn’t want to be alone and that does factor into his decisions to save Sam. But so does the way he views Sam as someone he has been given responsibility for, that he needs to care for. Dean was a child given the responsibility to care for a child, and under ridiculous conditions he did so, giving up much of his own autonomy in the process. In “Bad Boys,” we saw that Dean could see the value in another kind of life, one where he could be a kid and have his own dreams. We saw he had everything needed to do well on his own, handling academic pressures and making strong connections with other people.  And we saw that he returned to his difficult life on the road because of Sam.

And not simply because he knew he could never abandon his younger brother to his father’s harsh parenting, especially given his brother and father had huge communication issues. When Young Dean turns away from the window after spotting Sam, he has a huge smile on his face and walks away from the group home without looking back. He loves Sam, and if their life together brings him outrageous responsibilities, he can focus on the good and accept the bad. It’s a characteristic of Dean’s his father didn’t appreciate until it was too late. Saying goodbye to his son in “In My Time of Dying,” John doesn’t mention one word about Dean’s hunting prowess. Instead, he focuses on what Dean gives to people.

JOHN
You know, when you were a kid, I'd come home from a hunt, and after what I'd seen, I'd be, I'd be wrecked. And you, you'd come up to me and you, you'd put your hand on my shoulder and you'd look me in the eye and you'd... You'd say "It's okay, Dad"
(pauses)
Dean, I'm sorry.


DEAN
What?


JOHN
You shouldn't have had to say that to me, I should have been saying that to you. You know, I put, I put too much on your shoulders, I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me. You did that, and you didn't complain, not once. I just want you to know that I am so proud of you.


DEAN
This really you talking?


I was left after hearing Sam’s words this episode thinking Dean should have complained, because Sam has a narrow definition of sacrifice, and despite the last scene in “Bad Boys,” he appears oblivious to what Dean has given up without pointing out the cost to him. 

We saw this last season with Benny. In this episode, Sam goes for the jugular in telling Dean his relationship with Sam is based on fear of being alone, and it’s that fear that drives his sacrifices. There is some truth to that, as Dean himself said in season three. But it isn’t the whole truth, nor is Sam looking at how he handles the prospect of Dean having other people in his life he cares about.

When Dean disappeared in season eight, Sam showed in action the concept he voiced to Dean in “The Purge.” He would not move heaven and earth to find out what happened to his brother. He could move on and appreciate that Dean’s absence opened the door to his assuming another life, another identity. That isn’t to say he didn’t hurt when he lost Dean. He did. But his way of coping was to walk away from his life as Sam Winchester to one he was and perhaps still is sure is the “real” him, despite the lies he has to tell to make it work. When Dean returned, Sam told his brother to think about hunting alone after the quest was done, because Sam liked the life he built without Dean.

However, he delivered very mixed messages to Dean, because at the same time as he pushed Dean away, he was also furious and hurt at the idea Dean might put anyone in front of him. He imagined his brother hunting alone, despite Dean’s clear preference for having connections. Sam wanted autonomy but needed to remain the centre of his brother’s attention. It was a very hard position for Dean to negotiate.

It was hard for me as a viewer, too. I had huge issues with the way Sam wanted Dean to kill Benny on general principles, as he has never had that definition of a monster. I had huge issues with Sam telling Dean he needed to let Sam go when the job was done, but in the meantime his terms for working together were cutting ties with Benny. And I never saw Sam ever process how much it hurt Dean to abandon a friend in need and how unfair it was to ask that of him as a way to prove his love.

I was so happy when “Sacrifice” finally gave me context for Sam’s actions and I’m now so unhappy the power of the church scene has been taken away. After this episode, I’m even unhappier that Sam is castigating Dean for focusing on Sam for his happiness, while not acknowledging at all his own complicity or that Dean’s sacrifices for him do not all involve making deals.

I’m unhappy with other ways Sam framed his argument in this episode. After listing all the problems they still have to solve, Sam asks Dean, “Please tell me. What is the upside of me being alive?”

First, with the scale of the issues Sam and Dean have always faced, why is Sam putting a strict timeline on when they should have stopped the angel war or solved the succession problems in hell? If they manage to pull off a win at all at any time, they are doing well. It’s always taken the two of them working together to win against cosmic forces and, despite the issues around why, the two of them are still together ready to continue the good fight, as Dean says. That’s one upside of being alive.  Neither one has ever gone good places by fighting alone.

Secondly, the very fact that Sam is weighing the value of his life against goals he has to accomplish raises the issues Cas mentioned to Sam. Why does he not value his life because of who he is, not what he does? Cas refused to sacrifice Sam to find Gadreel and he didn’t apologize. Instead, he pointed out Sam didn’t need to atone, though Cas understands the emotions Sam feels about his mistakes.

Sacrifice hug
I think there is some ambiguity about the source of Sam’s acceptance of death. Sam’s response is “So?” to learning the trials will kill him, and he follows that up with saying he just screws up anyway. How is this mature rather than an indication he needs help? Nothing about the “Sacrifice” scene made me think, “Dean, Sam’s a big boy, let him die if he wants to.”

And I think the way Sam took ownership of the trials in “Trial and Error” reinforces how much he has changed by “Sacrifice.” Sam was frightened by Dean’s loss of hope and willingness to die to complete the trials, telling his brother his attitude would make it a suicide mission, while Sam’s attitude was that they were allowed hope and he would show Dean how to find it. No wonder Dean was astounded at hearing Sam’s words in the church. Why would he assume Sam’s change in attitude was healthy and should be supported? Sam himself didn’t think that kind of attitude was healthy earlier in the season.

Finally, I think the way Dean in the church reframed the goal of the Winchesters’ mission to Sam offered a viable middle road to Sam, who spent season 8 oscillating between feeling he didn’t have a responsibility to hunt bad things to feeling he had to sacrifice himself to atone for every mistake he’s made—and letting Dean know it’s Dean’s voice he’s hearing in his head when he’s judging himself.  There’s a reason for that—Dean did let out some repressed resentment, some of which was unfair and all of which was past time to be let go. On a number of fronts, Dean realized he needed to let his brother know Dean does not view his brother as running on a treadmill of blame, never to get off.

He also saw the mission to close the gates as different from the mission to stop the Apocalypse. Unlike the Apocalypse, Sam and Dean voluntarily took on the quest to close the gates of hell, and they primarily justified it on the grounds of payback. They never really grappled with the question of whether they should close the gates even if they could. Is there a reason for the balance between heaven and hell? Would it really improve things for humans if the angels had completely free reign? And is there perhaps a bigger plan in motion on extending the idea of free will to other realms, including hell?

Is the decision to close the gates of hell above the Winchesters’ pay grade?

Dean telling Sam his sacrifice is not necessary because the Winchesters have enough knowledge to continue to make a difference in the fight against evil wherever it lurks worked for me. I didn’t then and don’t now view Dean as selfish when he talked Sam down off the ledge.

So to me, Sam’s words to Dean feel very unsatisfying if they are intended to lay bare the issues of the relationship and therefore provide the foundation on which to rebuild it. I didn’t end the episode all agog and desperately hoping the hiatus flies by so I can see how things progress. Instead, I heard a distinct “ping” as the bond between the brothers snapped for me.

If Sam truly feels the way he is shown in “The Purge,” then I don’t really see why I should be invested in the boys getting back together. I’ve always thought this possibility was a danger inherent in Carver’s vision, but hoped I was wrong. However, Sam’s words made me examine why I want the boys to face life together.

Sam and Dean have always been distinct individuals, with their own hopes and experiences. But under Carver’s stewardship, the narrative has emphasized that they view love differently, family differently, roles differently – all of the important issues that infuse relationships. They don’t understand each other, can’t communicate with each other even when they talk and have no common goals. Sam and Dean have morphed into the Sam and Dean of “What Is and What Should Never Be.” Why is this a relationship to work on rather than leave?

In terms of maturity, it seems more to the point to admit there’s not enough in common to build a life on and go their separate ways. That way Dean will be open to relationships more in line with the way he views them and Sam will be free to either walk away from hunting or sacrifice himself to atone for his past, whichever feeling is top most in him. And if Sam’s choice is to resume a normal life now that he has a life to resume, Amelia is still out there.

Sam with Amelia is now something the narrative supports, I think. Kripke’s vision of the brothers was based on Luke and Han, with Sam as the special child and Dean as the bonded partner, fighting side by side to change destiny. I noticed in Carver’s last interview, he described Cas as Luke, taking up the sword to fight on that larger canvas instead of choosing a domestic life. The show is evolving under a different showrunner.

The question for me is whether I am intrigued by the changes. Sadly, I’m not. I know what drew me to this show, and it turns out to be Kripke’s vision of the power of family. I loved the way he drew up dedication to family and dedication to mission as opposing choices, one espoused by Dean, one by John, with Sam caught in the middle, and then collapsed the dichotomy in “Swan Song.”

Dean SwanSong
The world was not saved by the colt or by alliances or strategic planning. Dean’s refusal to leave Sam and his belief in his brother’s ability to remain himself helped Sam to defeat Lucifer. Believing most of all in the family unit was not a detriment to the mission; it was the key. I’m not interested in reconstructing that dichotomy as Sam seems to be doing, nor in devaluing what Dean did in “Swan Song.” Dean knows very well what it means to sacrifice his happiness to honour Sam’s wishes. He’s already been there and done that.

To my mind, what he has a problem with is Sam letting go when there is a choice. I don’t blame him for struggling with that, as I don’t blame Sam for finding possession especially abhorrent. I do blame the writers for framing this conflict in a way that to me changes the story and characters. I hope the rest of the season finds a way to make me believe the boys should be together rather than finding other relationships. It will be an uphill battle after the words spoken in this episode.

Thanks to homeofthenutty.com for the photos.




Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 15:08
Again, and I know I am a voice in the wilderness, Sam said situations reversed he would never do to Dean what Dean did to him. If Dean had made his peace and didn't want to be brought back by supernatural means (because who knows better than these two where that road leads) Sam wouldn't make Dean go through what he went through. I don't see the bond broken forever. For one thing the J's wouldn't stand for it. They are not stupid and neither are the showrunners. But these characters have got to evolve beyond sacrificing for each other to the detriment of everyone else. Of course Sam will die for Dean. But he wont' take away Dean's autonomy. I have been thinking about this situation that the brothers find themselves in. In the past when Sam has screwed up he usually gets a punch in the face. This is Sam's version of a punch in the face. It might hurt a hell of lot more but what he said was the truth and even Dean has to see that. When Dean killed that demon in Devils Trap he even told Sam that the lengths that he would go to when his family was on the line scared him. We can go season by season and see where Dean's choices have had globally destructive consequences. Sam has basically said enough. When Dean said he would do it all over again just the same if that wasn't a red flag for Sam I don't know what would be. Dean is essentially saying that Sam's survival is more important than Kevin. Sam does not feel that way and we know that (see SS). Again I don't see the bond as gone forever. In this episode even though Sam was royally pissed at Dean he was completely panicked when he was looking for Dean. I think that was supposed to show that no matter what Sam says he will always try to save his brother but he won't betray him. Anyway a round about way of saying I still have faith in this show and the brothers. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 15:08
Again, and I know I am a voice in the wilderness, Sam said situations reversed he would never do to Dean what Dean did to him. If Dean had made his peace and didn't want to be brought back by supernatural means (because who knows better than these two where that road leads) Sam wouldn't make Dean go through what he went through. I don't see the bond broken forever. For one thing the J's wouldn't stand for it. They are not stupid and neither are the showrunners. But these characters have got to evolve beyond sacrificing for each other to the detriment of everyone else. Of course Sam will die for Dean. But he wont' take away Dean's autonomy. I have been thinking about this situation that the brothers find themselves in. In the past when Sam has screwed up he usually gets a punch in the face. This is Sam's version of a punch in the face. It might hurt a hell of lot more but what he said was the truth and even Dean has to see that. When Dean killed that demon in Devils Trap he even told Sam that the lengths that he would go to when his family was on the line scared him. We can go season by season and see where Dean's choices have had globally destructive consequences. Sam has basically said enough. When Dean said he would do it all over again just the same if that wasn't a red flag for Sam I don't know what would be. Dean is essentially saying that Sam's survival is more important than Kevin. Sam does not feel that way and we know that (see SS). Again I don't see the bond as gone forever. In this episode even though Sam was royally pissed at Dean he was completely panicked when he was looking for Dean. I think that was supposed to show that no matter what Sam says he will always try to save his brother but he won't betray him. Anyway a round about way of saying I still have faith in this show and the brothers. :-)
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-07 15:38
I am sorry you chose to see it that way Gerry I do not know what to say to you. And considering I do not see Sam has doing anything wrong in all of this then we are clearly on different paths.

Family can be a strength but it cannot be used to justify every action. Dean did not do what he did to Sam in the name of family but because he did not want to be alone . Right now it is hard for Sam to believe in that concept but that is not to say that that will not change . But he has had not much time to process what was done and in Kevin's death. Sam would not put Dean through what he has gone through if Dean was in the same position . That does not mean if a bullet was heading Dean's way that Sam would not push Dean out of the way .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-07 15:38
I am sorry you chose to see it that way Gerry I do not know what to say to you. And considering I do not see Sam has doing anything wrong in all of this then we are clearly on different paths.

Family can be a strength but it cannot be used to justify every action. Dean did not do what he did to Sam in the name of family but because he did not want to be alone . Right now it is hard for Sam to believe in that concept but that is not to say that that will not change . But he has had not much time to process what was done and in Kevin's death. Sam would not put Dean through what he has gone through if Dean was in the same position . That does not mean if a bullet was heading Dean's way that Sam would not push Dean out of the way .
BRR549
# BRR549 2014-02-07 16:01
Sam has done something wrong, though. He's chosen to reinterpret their past in such a way that Dean carries the responsibility not only for his own actions, but also Sam's. Yes, he's right to be angry about Gadreel--but he's now saying that he was "talked out" of closing the gates by Dean rather than accepting that it was his own choice. It smacks of guilt that he is distancing himself from (not that he should feel guilty for Kevin or the gates, but I can understand why he does) by placing the onus on his brother.

Then there is the phrase "as long as you're not the one who gets hurt", which struck me as unnecessarily cruel and untrue, as Gerry pointed out.

I do still see the brothers as having something valuable to salvage, though--I just hope it doesn't take til the end of the season for them to come to terms with each other.
BRR549
# BRR549 2014-02-07 16:01
Sam has done something wrong, though. He's chosen to reinterpret their past in such a way that Dean carries the responsibility not only for his own actions, but also Sam's. Yes, he's right to be angry about Gadreel--but he's now saying that he was "talked out" of closing the gates by Dean rather than accepting that it was his own choice. It smacks of guilt that he is distancing himself from (not that he should feel guilty for Kevin or the gates, but I can understand why he does) by placing the onus on his brother.

Then there is the phrase "as long as you're not the one who gets hurt", which struck me as unnecessarily cruel and untrue, as Gerry pointed out.

I do still see the brothers as having something valuable to salvage, though--I just hope it doesn't take til the end of the season for them to come to terms with each other.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 16:13
#3 Yes it doesn't make sense right now kind of like Dean blaming Sam for being soulless in S8. That was a puzzle in the extreme. I have a feeling that these guys say the things that have hurt them even when they don't make a whole lot of sense to the other. And Sam and Kevin were the ones to get hurt this time. And Dean said he would do it all over again because essentially he was happy with the result. When Sam was dead and presumably resting peacefully in heaven Dean made a deal that set in motion Lucifer rising. He didn't know that of course but the consequences of that action should have taught him that lesson. A lesson that Death has tried to teach Dean apparently to no avail. Maybe this is Dean's journey and Sam's will be what will he do to save his brother.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 16:13
#3 Yes it doesn't make sense right now kind of like Dean blaming Sam for being soulless in S8. That was a puzzle in the extreme. I have a feeling that these guys say the things that have hurt them even when they don't make a whole lot of sense to the other. And Sam and Kevin were the ones to get hurt this time. And Dean said he would do it all over again because essentially he was happy with the result. When Sam was dead and presumably resting peacefully in heaven Dean made a deal that set in motion Lucifer rising. He didn't know that of course but the consequences of that action should have taught him that lesson. A lesson that Death has tried to teach Dean apparently to no avail. Maybe this is Dean's journey and Sam's will be what will he do to save his brother.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-07 16:25
I think everyone is being rather premature here. Sam just found out about this debacle a couple of episodes back. Of course he's still angry. It took Dean a whole season to forgive Sam after S4.

I do however wish that the writers would allow Sam to express his extremely valid points clearly, so we don't end up with the victim in this situation getting blamed. It's disturbing.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-07 16:25
I think everyone is being rather premature here. Sam just found out about this debacle a couple of episodes back. Of course he's still angry. It took Dean a whole season to forgive Sam after S4.

I do however wish that the writers would allow Sam to express his extremely valid points clearly, so we don't end up with the victim in this situation getting blamed. It's disturbing.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-07 16:26
Quoting BRR549:
Sam has done something wrong, though. He's chosen to reinterpret their past in such a way that Dean carries the responsibility not only for his own actions, but also Sam's. Yes, he's right to be angry about Gadreel--but he's now saying that he was "talked out" of closing the gates by Dean rather than accepting that it was his own choice. It smacks of guilt that he is distancing himself from (not that he should feel guilty for Kevin or the gates, but I can understand why he does) by placing the onus on his brother.

Then there is the phrase "as long as you're not the one who gets hurt", which struck me as unnecessarily cruel and untrue, as Gerry pointed out.

I do still see the brothers as having something valuable to salvage, though--I just hope it doesn't take til the end of the season for them to come to terms with each other.

Like I said Sam has not had time to process what happened. Sam was hurt this time and in a huge way then Dean made it clear he would do it again that hit home to Sam.

Yes some words were cruel but then cruel words can come from hurt which Dean himself has demostrated in the past . My one regret is that we have not had more of Sam's pov because it has given room for the Sam naysayers to blame him .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-07 16:26
Quote:
Sam has done something wrong, though. He's chosen to reinterpret their past in such a way that Dean carries the responsibility not only for his own actions, but also Sam's. Yes, he's right to be angry about Gadreel--but he's now saying that he was "talked out" of closing the gates by Dean rather than accepting that it was his own choice. It smacks of guilt that he is distancing himself from (not that he should feel guilty for Kevin or the gates, but I can understand why he does) by placing the onus on his brother.

Then there is the phrase "as long as you're not the one who gets hurt", which struck me as unnecessarily cruel and untrue, as Gerry pointed out.

I do still see the brothers as having something valuable to salvage, though--I just hope it doesn't take til the end of the season for them to come to terms with each other.
Like I said Sam has not had time to process what happened. Sam was hurt this time and in a huge way then Dean made it clear he would do it again that hit home to Sam.

Yes some words were cruel but then cruel words can come from hurt which Dean himself has demostrated in the past . My one regret is that we have not had more of Sam's pov because it has given room for the Sam naysayers to blame him .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-07 16:29
Quote:
In this episode, Sam goes for the jugular in telling Dean his relationship with Sam is based on fear of being alone, and it’s that fear that drives his sacrifices. There is some truth to that, as Dean himself said in season three. But it isn’t the whole truth,
Maybe because for Dean whatever he does is only because of his family but not because of his fear of loosing Sam.If Sam is wrong for focusing only on one of the reasons then Dean is too.Quote:
I was left after hearing Sam’s words this episode thinking Dean should have complained,
Not just you Sam feels the same.Quote:
He would not move heaven and earth to find out what happened to his brother.
No, He showed that he will not bring Dean back from dead.Your comment shows Sam's decision from Dean's POV not Sam's motivations.Quote:
Why does he not value his life because of who he is, not what he does?
Because they are not mutually exclusive.Quote:
Dean knows very well what it means to sacrifice his happiness to honour Sam’s wishes. He’s already been there and done that.
That was an exception not a pattern.Quote:
Amelia is still out there
Maybe maybe not.Quote:
Sam and Dean have morphed into the Sam and Dean of “What Is and What Should Never Be.”
If so then it is good.There also Sam stood up when Dean was wrong but still helped his brother.Quote:
I didn’t then and don’t now view Dean as selfish when he talked Sam down off the ledge.
I don't view him as selfless .Dean views it as family (selfless) and Sam thinks it as Dean's loneliness (selfish).Where as it is somewhere in between with some other factors included.
About Benny,See it in connection with Amy and how much better Sam reaction was,What is good for goose is also good for gander I think?
I am sorry but I am with Sharon on this one.Sam is angry as he should be.He has to show Dean that his actions have consequences and how his actions have violated and hurt him.When Dean still goes on about how it was because of "family" then Sam has to make him listen.Dean has to stop passing on the responsibility to family and seriously think about his actions and stop being dismissive of the consequences because he might have forgotten including Kevin in this "family" of his.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-07 16:29
Quote:
In this episode, Sam goes for the jugular in telling Dean his relationship with Sam is based on fear of being alone, and it’s that fear that drives his sacrifices. There is some truth to that, as Dean himself said in season three. But it isn’t the whole truth,
Maybe because for Dean whatever he does is only because of his family but not because of his fear of loosing Sam.If Sam is wrong for focusing only on one of the reasons then Dean is too.Quote:
I was left after hearing Sam’s words this episode thinking Dean should have complained,
Not just you Sam feels the same.Quote:
He would not move heaven and earth to find out what happened to his brother.
No, He showed that he will not bring Dean back from dead.Your comment shows Sam's decision from Dean's POV not Sam's motivations.Quote:
Why does he not value his life because of who he is, not what he does?
Because they are not mutually exclusive.Quote:
Dean knows very well what it means to sacrifice his happiness to honour Sam’s wishes. He’s already been there and done that.
That was an exception not a pattern.Quote:
Amelia is still out there
Maybe maybe not.Quote:
Sam and Dean have morphed into the Sam and Dean of “What Is and What Should Never Be.”
If so then it is good.There also Sam stood up when Dean was wrong but still helped his brother.Quote:
I didn’t then and don’t now view Dean as selfish when he talked Sam down off the ledge.
I don't view him as selfless .Dean views it as family (selfless) and Sam thinks it as Dean's loneliness (selfish).Where as it is somewhere in between with some other factors included.
About Benny,See it in connection with Amy and how much better Sam reaction was,What is good for goose is also good for gander I think?
I am sorry but I am with Sharon on this one.Sam is angry as he should be.He has to show Dean that his actions have consequences and how his actions have violated and hurt him.When Dean still goes on about how it was because of "family" then Sam has to make him listen.Dean has to stop passing on the responsibility to family and seriously think about his actions and stop being dismissive of the consequences because he might have forgotten including Kevin in this "family" of his.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-07 16:30
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
I think everyone is being rather premature here. Sam just found out about this debacle a couple of episodes back. Of course he's still angry. It took Dean a whole season to forgive Sam after S4.

I do however wish that the writers would allow Sam to express his extremely valid points clearly, so we don't end up with the victim in this situation getting blamed. It's disturbing.

and he brought it up liberally afterwords.Mayb e its a little jarring to have Sam "talk" for a change.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-07 16:30
Quote:
I think everyone is being rather premature here. Sam just found out about this debacle a couple of episodes back. Of course he's still angry. It took Dean a whole season to forgive Sam after S4.

I do however wish that the writers would allow Sam to express his extremely valid points clearly, so we don't end up with the victim in this situation getting blamed. It's disturbing.
and he brought it up liberally afterwords.Mayb e its a little jarring to have Sam "talk" for a change.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-02-07 16:34
As was stated in another thread, isn't Sam the victim here? When this started, all anyone could talk about was how hurt and angry Sam was going to be, and now that he is, why is everyone so shocked? Would it have been better for him to leave like he's done in the past when he's angry? Then everyone would be saying, "Oh well, that's Sam, he always leaves."

What he said was harsh and hurtful to Dean, but how was it more harsh than Dean telling him that he was a monster, or telling him he was self righteous and didn't believe in him? I seriously don't understand how Dean gets a pass on every cruel thing out of his mouth and Sam is vilified for any negative word. I'm not trying to start anything, I swear, I just really don't get it.

I do think they can still salvage it, I'm not giving up, not yet. If I could make it through seasons 4 and 5 without giving up, I keep telling myself I can make it through this.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-02-07 16:34
As was stated in another thread, isn't Sam the victim here? When this started, all anyone could talk about was how hurt and angry Sam was going to be, and now that he is, why is everyone so shocked? Would it have been better for him to leave like he's done in the past when he's angry? Then everyone would be saying, "Oh well, that's Sam, he always leaves."

What he said was harsh and hurtful to Dean, but how was it more harsh than Dean telling him that he was a monster, or telling him he was self righteous and didn't believe in him? I seriously don't understand how Dean gets a pass on every cruel thing out of his mouth and Sam is vilified for any negative word. I'm not trying to start anything, I swear, I just really don't get it.

I do think they can still salvage it, I'm not giving up, not yet. If I could make it through seasons 4 and 5 without giving up, I keep telling myself I can make it through this.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-07 16:39
Gerry - interesting review; don't agree with most of your conclusions. In my opinion, this review is quite dismissive of how very, very wrong Dean's actions were in tricking Sam in to being possessed by an angel. Especially given Sam's past of having been possessed by both angels and demons. Dean has never had his autonomy, his agency, taken away from him in the same manner. When I viewed the last scene, I saw Sam as being very tired and exasperated that Dean just didn't get it; if anything, Dean was expecting gratitude on Sam's part. Sam was harsh and part of this was out of anger, but I think a big part of this was also to use as a bludgeon so Dean would LISTEN. Dean's initial response in Road Trip was a half-assed apology and thinking they could put a few W's under their belt and put it behind them. I'm glad to see Sam stand his ground on this one, and not fold as he usually has in the past.

This whole angel possession goes directly against the concept of free will which Sam and Dean have fought so hard for. I'm not saying I don't understand the context under which Dean, as Sam's parent/guardian /brother, made this decision, it was just wrong in every possible way. I also realize this argument is academic - no Sam and Dean, no show, but Dean needs to take his lumps on this one.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-07 16:39
Gerry - interesting review; don't agree with most of your conclusions. In my opinion, this review is quite dismissive of how very, very wrong Dean's actions were in tricking Sam in to being possessed by an angel. Especially given Sam's past of having been possessed by both angels and demons. Dean has never had his autonomy, his agency, taken away from him in the same manner. When I viewed the last scene, I saw Sam as being very tired and exasperated that Dean just didn't get it; if anything, Dean was expecting gratitude on Sam's part. Sam was harsh and part of this was out of anger, but I think a big part of this was also to use as a bludgeon so Dean would LISTEN. Dean's initial response in Road Trip was a half-assed apology and thinking they could put a few W's under their belt and put it behind them. I'm glad to see Sam stand his ground on this one, and not fold as he usually has in the past.

This whole angel possession goes directly against the concept of free will which Sam and Dean have fought so hard for. I'm not saying I don't understand the context under which Dean, as Sam's parent/guardian /brother, made this decision, it was just wrong in every possible way. I also realize this argument is academic - no Sam and Dean, no show, but Dean needs to take his lumps on this one.
Ann
# Ann 2014-02-07 16:48
Rather than trying to defend either Sam or Dean, I think we need to let JC and the writers know that they are presenting both boys in a way that is out of character for each. The problem is not that they are raising issues between the brothers..it is that they are presenting Sam as cruel and cold and giving Dean only the "not being alone" motive. Neither is true or has been true over the past years of the show. Pretty discouraging for fans of both Sam and Dean.
Ann
# Ann 2014-02-07 16:48
Rather than trying to defend either Sam or Dean, I think we need to let JC and the writers know that they are presenting both boys in a way that is out of character for each. The problem is not that they are raising issues between the brothers..it is that they are presenting Sam as cruel and cold and giving Dean only the "not being alone" motive. Neither is true or has been true over the past years of the show. Pretty discouraging for fans of both Sam and Dean.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-02-07 16:50
I thought I was a DEAN girl but you really are. I will hang with the show until the end but a little something something is gone for me as well.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2014-02-07 16:50
I thought I was a DEAN girl but you really are. I will hang with the show until the end but a little something something is gone for me as well.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-07 17:03
I'm in agreement with cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymousN and sylvia37 Sam was the victim here of a huge violation of his body. In this very episode Dean actually underlined it when he told Sam he knew what roofies looked like because he had no desire to end up in a bathtub with a kidney missing. Dean is adamant that he NEVER wants to be in a position when someone can put something in his body and then use it in any way they want while Dean has no control and will have his memory wiped afterward. Yet he is perfectly comfortable doing that to Sam AND he state that he WILL do it again whenever he thinks it's necessary.

I know fans and Dean himself want Sam to hit him, yell at him and then move on. They and he wanted what Gadreel gave him, a quick out with no real repercussions other than a sore jaw and some ringing ears. That isn't the way Sam gets angry and people get to process and express anger any way they want. Dean really screwed up here and he gets to live with Sam, Sam's anger and however Sam wants to express it. In season five Dean told Sam he would never trust him again. He agreed to work with Sam but refused to treat him as an equal partner. He had called Sam a monster even before he knew about the demon blood drinking. He told Sam that Sam ONLY slept with monsters (Jess was in heaven saying "Hold on a minute here!!"). He deliberately threw away the amulet in such a way as to show Sam that he was rejecting SAM. He told Sam he was going to say yes to Michael and let Michael kill millions of people because he knew Sam would never be strong enough to fight Lucifer. And yet there were very few outcries that he was being mean to Sam. Sam himself acknowledged that he had to earn Dean's trust. He told Dean he was sorry for everything he did. He did what he could to stop Lucifer, including finally accepting what he believed would be eternal torture to put Lucifer back in the Cage. And fan reaction was that Sam had done horrible things so no matter what Dean said or did Sam deserved it. To this day people declare Dean should throw Dean out because Sam can never make up, not for releasing Lucifer, because he made that right, but for hurting Dean's feelings.

Now Dean has done something to Sam that I find abhorrent and (if it were me) unforgivable. He roofied Sam and then gaslighted him so that Sam wouldn't realize it. He let Gadreel take over Sam's body and DO THINGS with it, one of which was kill Kevin. He overrode Sam's request to be let go and not be brought back to hurt anyone. As an emergency response it is understandable. But then he lied to Sam and refused to let Sam decide if he wanted his body to be rented out to Zeke, even if Zeke was performing necessary renovations. And with all that, the person getting criticized isn't Dean, it's Sam because "he hurt Dean's feelings". I am not sympathetic.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-07 17:03
I'm in agreement with cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymousN and sylvia37 Sam was the victim here of a huge violation of his body. In this very episode Dean actually underlined it when he told Sam he knew what roofies looked like because he had no desire to end up in a bathtub with a kidney missing. Dean is adamant that he NEVER wants to be in a position when someone can put something in his body and then use it in any way they want while Dean has no control and will have his memory wiped afterward. Yet he is perfectly comfortable doing that to Sam AND he state that he WILL do it again whenever he thinks it's necessary.

I know fans and Dean himself want Sam to hit him, yell at him and then move on. They and he wanted what Gadreel gave him, a quick out with no real repercussions other than a sore jaw and some ringing ears. That isn't the way Sam gets angry and people get to process and express anger any way they want. Dean really screwed up here and he gets to live with Sam, Sam's anger and however Sam wants to express it. In season five Dean told Sam he would never trust him again. He agreed to work with Sam but refused to treat him as an equal partner. He had called Sam a monster even before he knew about the demon blood drinking. He told Sam that Sam ONLY slept with monsters (Jess was in heaven saying "Hold on a minute here!!"). He deliberately threw away the amulet in such a way as to show Sam that he was rejecting SAM. He told Sam he was going to say yes to Michael and let Michael kill millions of people because he knew Sam would never be strong enough to fight Lucifer. And yet there were very few outcries that he was being mean to Sam. Sam himself acknowledged that he had to earn Dean's trust. He told Dean he was sorry for everything he did. He did what he could to stop Lucifer, including finally accepting what he believed would be eternal torture to put Lucifer back in the Cage. And fan reaction was that Sam had done horrible things so no matter what Dean said or did Sam deserved it. To this day people declare Dean should throw Dean out because Sam can never make up, not for releasing Lucifer, because he made that right, but for hurting Dean's feelings.

Now Dean has done something to Sam that I find abhorrent and (if it were me) unforgivable. He roofied Sam and then gaslighted him so that Sam wouldn't realize it. He let Gadreel take over Sam's body and DO THINGS with it, one of which was kill Kevin. He overrode Sam's request to be let go and not be brought back to hurt anyone. As an emergency response it is understandable. But then he lied to Sam and refused to let Sam decide if he wanted his body to be rented out to Zeke, even if Zeke was performing necessary renovations. And with all that, the person getting criticized isn't Dean, it's Sam because "he hurt Dean's feelings". I am not sympathetic.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-02-07 17:10
Quoting anonymousN:

I am sorry but I am with Sharon on this one.Sam is angry as he should be.He has to show Dean that his actions have consequences and how his actions have violated and hurt him.When Dean still goes on about how it was because of "family" then Sam has to make him listen.Dean has to stop passing on the responsibility to family and seriously think about his actions and stop being dismissive of the consequences because he might have forgotten including Kevin in this "family" of his.


I totally agree. Well said.
sylvia37
# sylvia37 2014-02-07 17:10
Quote:

I am sorry but I am with Sharon on this one.Sam is angry as he should be.He has to show Dean that his actions have consequences and how his actions have violated and hurt him.When Dean still goes on about how it was because of "family" then Sam has to make him listen.Dean has to stop passing on the responsibility to family and seriously think about his actions and stop being dismissive of the consequences because he might have forgotten including Kevin in this "family" of his.
I totally agree. Well said.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-07 17:27
A very honest review Gerry and I share those views. I have to wonder why Sam is still with Dean after nine years if this is how he sees Dean. It certainly isn't out of love or devotion to family. Is Sam hoping to break Dean down completely? Revenge has always been a strong motivation for Sam.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-07 17:27
A very honest review Gerry and I share those views. I have to wonder why Sam is still with Dean after nine years if this is how he sees Dean. It certainly isn't out of love or devotion to family. Is Sam hoping to break Dean down completely? Revenge has always been a strong motivation for Sam.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-07 17:42
I completely agree with you on this one, Gerry, especially about Jeremy Carver's vision of what this show is about and even right down to who and what the two lead characters are. He is defining the brothers and carrying their story on in a way I do not think the show has ever supported; for instance, Sam as a hapless depressant (or a mental nut job) and Dean as a needy clinger who just can't make it on his own. I never thought I would be one to say after Swan Song that I hope Revolution gets cancelled and EK comes back for S10. Depending on how this season ends and what the show does with Dean's character, I am seriously thinking I will catch up on S2 of Revolution and take that show up next year.

The issues with Sam that you outline seem to be leading to another 'What's Wrong with Sam V9.01. I am not interested at all. I said in a prior post, Sam is completely irredeemable to me as a character now, no matter how the season ends, what he might learn, or how he may jump in and save Dean having learned that, in fact, he does value his brother. I will take Sam's lesson as a credit earned to be a future emotional bomb to use against Dean. The show has pushed Sam too far away for me to connect to him any longer.

I no longer care about the brother bond and, as you say, that was the power behind the emotional attachment to the show. I see no good reason shown for the brothers to stay together or for Sam to be hunting. He should man up and just leave; not stay and throw emotional bombs at his brother. I am only interested in Dean now, and I'll see how that goes. It has been my experience with this show that whenever they try to build Sam up, they take things away from Dean's character to do so, and I think this episode has started that song again.

(Edited by Alice - One of our rules is no character attacks. Leave your contempt for Castiel out of this)

There are other minor things that are bugging me, too. For instance, I no longer get most of the pop culture references. They seem to be addressed to the new and younger viewer or whoever it is these writers think the target audience us, or maybe they are just things the Hollywood crowd watch on TV.

What is with the family-loving friendly monsters and the constant hit on not doing evil because a true love was found? Are they using the show to set the stage for the spin-off? IMO, they are, and that is audience manipulation.

I am wondering if this whole mess of leaving episodes on these sour notes isn't a marketing tool to keep the fan wars going and; thus, the chatter about the show. IMO it is and that, too, is audience manipulation.

In the end, though, it all boils down to what you said, "...this conflict [is done] in a way that to me changes the story and characters," and I don't like the vision I am seeing.

Great review, Gerry. There is so much that could be said about this episode, I know it was hard to be concise. I do, however, suggest you hide under a big rock or put on a suit of armor :)
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-07 17:42
I completely agree with you on this one, Gerry, especially about Jeremy Carver's vision of what this show is about and even right down to who and what the two lead characters are. He is defining the brothers and carrying their story on in a way I do not think the show has ever supported; for instance, Sam as a hapless depressant (or a mental nut job) and Dean as a needy clinger who just can't make it on his own. I never thought I would be one to say after Swan Song that I hope Revolution gets cancelled and EK comes back for S10. Depending on how this season ends and what the show does with Dean's character, I am seriously thinking I will catch up on S2 of Revolution and take that show up next year.

The issues with Sam that you outline seem to be leading to another 'What's Wrong with Sam V9.01. I am not interested at all. I said in a prior post, Sam is completely irredeemable to me as a character now, no matter how the season ends, what he might learn, or how he may jump in and save Dean having learned that, in fact, he does value his brother. I will take Sam's lesson as a credit earned to be a future emotional bomb to use against Dean. The show has pushed Sam too far away for me to connect to him any longer.

I no longer care about the brother bond and, as you say, that was the power behind the emotional attachment to the show. I see no good reason shown for the brothers to stay together or for Sam to be hunting. He should man up and just leave; not stay and throw emotional bombs at his brother. I am only interested in Dean now, and I'll see how that goes. It has been my experience with this show that whenever they try to build Sam up, they take things away from Dean's character to do so, and I think this episode has started that song again.

(Edited by Alice - One of our rules is no character attacks. Leave your contempt for Castiel out of this)

There are other minor things that are bugging me, too. For instance, I no longer get most of the pop culture references. They seem to be addressed to the new and younger viewer or whoever it is these writers think the target audience us, or maybe they are just things the Hollywood crowd watch on TV.

What is with the family-loving friendly monsters and the constant hit on not doing evil because a true love was found? Are they using the show to set the stage for the spin-off? IMO, they are, and that is audience manipulation.

I am wondering if this whole mess of leaving episodes on these sour notes isn't a marketing tool to keep the fan wars going and; thus, the chatter about the show. IMO it is and that, too, is audience manipulation.

In the end, though, it all boils down to what you said, "...this conflict [is done] in a way that to me changes the story and characters," and I don't like the vision I am seeing.

Great review, Gerry. There is so much that could be said about this episode, I know it was hard to be concise. I do, however, suggest you hide under a big rock or put on a suit of armor :)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 17:51
#15 Do you think that Dean was right in what he did? Was Kevin's death worth it? (Edited by Alice - You're taking this discussion to extremes with this sentence).

I think some fans are unhappy with Sam right now because for the first time he isn't going to forgive so easily. And yes anonymousN It is shocking to actually here Sam speak his mind.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 17:51
#15 Do you think that Dean was right in what he did? Was Kevin's death worth it? (Edited by Alice - You're taking this discussion to extremes with this sentence).

I think some fans are unhappy with Sam right now because for the first time he isn't going to forgive so easily. And yes anonymousN It is shocking to actually here Sam speak his mind.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-07 18:07
#13 percysowner - excellent analogy on the roofies conversation in this episode. I like reading all of the differing opinions but can't for the life of me understand how people can give Dean a free pass on this.

(Comment by Alice - Dean supporters are saying similar things about Sam's behavior. People see it in all different ways. There's always two sides to a story).
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-07 18:07
#13 percysowner - excellent analogy on the roofies conversation in this episode. I like reading all of the differing opinions but can't for the life of me understand how people can give Dean a free pass on this.

(Comment by Alice - Dean supporters are saying similar things about Sam's behavior. People see it in all different ways. There's always two sides to a story).
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-02-07 18:51
Quoting njspnfan:
#13 percysowner - excellent analogy on the roofies conversation in this episode. I like reading all of the differing opinions but can't for the life of me understand how people can give Dean a free pass on this.

Yes, excellent analogy Percysowner. . And an excellent, spot on post. I am in complete agreement with you. And with cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymousN, sylvia37 and njspnfan.

Dean's actions were so very wrong. Sam is the victim here and yet, somehow, he's the one being blamed and vilified. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand it.
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-02-07 18:51
Quote:
#13 percysowner - excellent analogy on the roofies conversation in this episode. I like reading all of the differing opinions but can't for the life of me understand how people can give Dean a free pass on this.
Yes, excellent analogy Percysowner. . And an excellent, spot on post. I am in complete agreement with you. And with cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymousN, sylvia37 and njspnfan.

Dean's actions were so very wrong. Sam is the victim here and yet, somehow, he's the one being blamed and vilified. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand it.
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-02-07 18:56
I really enjoyed your review last week Gerry, as it was well balanced even though the episode didn’t sit well with you. This week, not so much... I almost had to stop reading it which is something I only usually do when I’m filtering through comments. I do agree cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymous, njspnfan, syliva 37 and percysowner.

First let me say that I’m heartbroken for Dean. I really am. I relate better to Sam than I do to Dean, but it doesn’t mean I don’t love Dean or understand what he is going through. I know why he did what he had to do and, obviously, I’m glad he did it. But, he could’ve told Sam as soon as Sam was conscious again – and then let Sam decide his own fate. Yes, Gadreel might’ve prevented Dean from telling Sam right at the beginning, but at least Sam would now know that Dean tried to tell him. Instead he has memories of several months of lies (Dean saying he saved Sam from three demons and Abaddon, as one example). He even said outright to Sam, “Would I lie to you?” Sam now has all those memories, along with the one image he’ll never be free of – him burning out Kevin’s eyes.

For Sam there are things worse than death.

When he was possessed by Meg he killed another hunter, hurt Jo and Dean, and then went after Bobby. When he was possessed by Lucifer he ripped apart several people (who’d been possessed by demons). When he was soulless he did many unspeakable things, endangering Dean and coming within a fraction of murdering Bobby.

All of this has been a huge burden for Sam. The one thing that he could be thankful for was that he hadn’t actually killed someone close to him.

Until now...

Until Dean tricked him into being possessed by Gadreel... and then lied about it for several months.

We can all say it wasn't Sam (it was Gadreel) as much as we want; but we all know that Sam doesn't see it that way. He believes he (and Dean) are responsible for Kevin's death; a young man they were mentoring and trying to protect.

How much time has passed since Sam found out about Gadreel and Kevin? Is it a week? Maybe two weeks? How long would you take to get over the worst thing you can possibly imagine happening to you?

Is Sam being entirely rational? No, he’s not. Is he taking ownership of the fact that he did make some choices in the church and by going with Dean instead of Death? No, he’s not.

Do I blame him? No, I do not. Because, right now, he can’t see past the tragedy of what has happened to him and what he has to live with for the rest of his life. Dean was wrong to take away Sam’s choice and he can’t even say the words “I’m sorry”. Instead he says he’d do it again. He would put Sam through all of this again.

So I have absolutely no problem understanding why Sam would tell Dean that under the same circumstances he wouldn’t save Dean. It doesn’t mean he wouldn’t die for Dean or that he doesn’t love his brother. He just wouldn’t take away Dean’s choice.

I wrote this next part in a comment elsewhere:

Sam loves Dean so much that he is prepared to let him go; to be at peace, rather than subject him to the same pain and grief he’s experienced.

Dean loves Sam so much that he will always do anything to protect him and save him; despite the consequence.

Who decides then which brother loves the other brother more? You can’t!

What is boils down is that neither of them (at this moment) can understand the other.

And, as much as it hurts to watch the brothers go through this, it is compelling viewing. And I think (live in hope) that the brother bond will be stronger by the end of it. Personally, I think Jeremy Carver is doing an exceptional job. I’m as invested in this show as I’ve always been :-)
KG_SPN
# KG_SPN 2014-02-07 18:56
I really enjoyed your review last week Gerry, as it was well balanced even though the episode didn’t sit well with you. This week, not so much... I almost had to stop reading it which is something I only usually do when I’m filtering through comments. I do agree cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymous, njspnfan, syliva 37 and percysowner.

First let me say that I’m heartbroken for Dean. I really am. I relate better to Sam than I do to Dean, but it doesn’t mean I don’t love Dean or understand what he is going through. I know why he did what he had to do and, obviously, I’m glad he did it. But, he could’ve told Sam as soon as Sam was conscious again – and then let Sam decide his own fate. Yes, Gadreel might’ve prevented Dean from telling Sam right at the beginning, but at least Sam would now know that Dean tried to tell him. Instead he has memories of several months of lies (Dean saying he saved Sam from three demons and Abaddon, as one example). He even said outright to Sam, “Would I lie to you?” Sam now has all those memories, along with the one image he’ll never be free of – him burning out Kevin’s eyes.

For Sam there are things worse than death.

When he was possessed by Meg he killed another hunter, hurt Jo and Dean, and then went after Bobby. When he was possessed by Lucifer he ripped apart several people (who’d been possessed by demons). When he was soulless he did many unspeakable things, endangering Dean and coming within a fraction of murdering Bobby.

All of this has been a huge burden for Sam. The one thing that he could be thankful for was that he hadn’t actually killed someone close to him.

Until now...

Until Dean tricked him into being possessed by Gadreel... and then lied about it for several months.

We can all say it wasn't Sam (it was Gadreel) as much as we want; but we all know that Sam doesn't see it that way. He believes he (and Dean) are responsible for Kevin's death; a young man they were mentoring and trying to protect.

How much time has passed since Sam found out about Gadreel and Kevin? Is it a week? Maybe two weeks? How long would you take to get over the worst thing you can possibly imagine happening to you?

Is Sam being entirely rational? No, he’s not. Is he taking ownership of the fact that he did make some choices in the church and by going with Dean instead of Death? No, he’s not.

Do I blame him? No, I do not. Because, right now, he can’t see past the tragedy of what has happened to him and what he has to live with for the rest of his life. Dean was wrong to take away Sam’s choice and he can’t even say the words “I’m sorry”. Instead he says he’d do it again. He would put Sam through all of this again.

So I have absolutely no problem understanding why Sam would tell Dean that under the same circumstances he wouldn’t save Dean. It doesn’t mean he wouldn’t die for Dean or that he doesn’t love his brother. He just wouldn’t take away Dean’s choice.

I wrote this next part in a comment elsewhere:

Sam loves Dean so much that he is prepared to let him go; to be at peace, rather than subject him to the same pain and grief he’s experienced.

Dean loves Sam so much that he will always do anything to protect him and save him; despite the consequence.

Who decides then which brother loves the other brother more? You can’t!

What is boils down is that neither of them (at this moment) can understand the other.

And, as much as it hurts to watch the brothers go through this, it is compelling viewing. And I think (live in hope) that the brother bond will be stronger by the end of it. Personally, I think Jeremy Carver is doing an exceptional job. I’m as invested in this show as I’ve always been :-)
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-07 19:14
Quoting sylvia37:
As was stated in another thread, isn't Sam the victim here? When this started, all anyone could talk about was how hurt and angry Sam was going to be, and now that he is, why is everyone so shocked? Would it have been better for him to leave like he's done in the past when he's angry? Then everyone would be saying, "Oh well, that's Sam, he always leaves."

What he said was harsh and hurtful to Dean, but how was it more harsh than Dean telling him that he was a monster, or telling him he was self righteous and didn't believe in him? I seriously don't understand how Dean gets a pass on every cruel thing out of his mouth and Sam is vilified for any negative word. I'm not trying to start anything, I swear, I just really don't get it.

I do think they can still salvage it, I'm not giving up, not yet. If I could make it through seasons 4 and 5 without giving up, I keep telling myself I can make it through this.


I cannot speak for Gerry, but I will answer you from my perspective, since I have clearly stated a couple of times that Sam is irredeemable to me as a character. My big thing is that when Dean speaks, he is being honest and sincere in his feelings, whether you agree with them or not. Whereas, when Sam talks or is upset, he goes for the jugular, saying hurtful things in a personal attack (this episode and Sex and Violence). In older seasons, when Sam wanted to get a point across, he did it best when he spoke calmly and honestly (Bloodlust – “I just want you to be my brother,” and in Children Shouldn’t Play with Dead Things).

Sam was turning into a monster when he was slurping demon blood and he was a monster when he was soulless. That is why Dean had decided it would have to kill him (to protect other people from him) when Death showed up and retrieved his soul.

Sam was being self-righteous in thinking that he was the only one strong enough to kill Lilith; that Dean was left too weak and scared from his Hell experience. That wasn't the only time Sam has been self-righteous (Slash Fiction when LeviSam describes Sam). But there are points in this episode that address the difference in fact checking Sam's argument.

There have been complaints for two seasons that Sam does not get a POV. The audience got Sam’s clear POV in this episode and what I saw, I did not like.

Sam found Dean embarrassing (the donut scene and the job interview scene). That is self-righteous.

Sam feels he doesn’t fit in (lying to Jessica, not being wholly truthful with Amelia, and in this episode, the yoga scene). That is blaming Dean for his own self-esteem.

Dean has protected Sam his entire life (the roofies scene where Sam doesn’t recognize them and Dean asks how he does not (Bad Boys, Metamorphorus, where Dean has gone hungry for Sam, and A Very Supernatural Christmas), and Sam says he only sacrifices when it benefits Dean. The show has in no way ever supported Sam on that one.

Sam tells Dean again in this episode that he will work with him, but he meant it when he said he did not want to be brothers (or even friends), yet when Dean is drugged, Sam rushed to his aid; a real contradiction in actions and words.

Then I go back to every single time that Sam has left or been separated from Dean, it has always been his choice to return, and he has had that choice several times from the Pilot forward.

So, my thinking is, if Sam doesn’t like Dean, doesn’t want to hunt, wants to hunt alone, wants to be his own person, thinks Dean has violated him as a person, then just damned well man up and go do it.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-07 19:14
Quote:
As was stated in another thread, isn't Sam the victim here? When this started, all anyone could talk about was how hurt and angry Sam was going to be, and now that he is, why is everyone so shocked? Would it have been better for him to leave like he's done in the past when he's angry? Then everyone would be saying, "Oh well, that's Sam, he always leaves."

What he said was harsh and hurtful to Dean, but how was it more harsh than Dean telling him that he was a monster, or telling him he was self righteous and didn't believe in him? I seriously don't understand how Dean gets a pass on every cruel thing out of his mouth and Sam is vilified for any negative word. I'm not trying to start anything, I swear, I just really don't get it.

I do think they can still salvage it, I'm not giving up, not yet. If I could make it through seasons 4 and 5 without giving up, I keep telling myself I can make it through this.
I cannot speak for Gerry, but I will answer you from my perspective, since I have clearly stated a couple of times that Sam is irredeemable to me as a character. My big thing is that when Dean speaks, he is being honest and sincere in his feelings, whether you agree with them or not. Whereas, when Sam talks or is upset, he goes for the jugular, saying hurtful things in a personal attack (this episode and Sex and Violence). In older seasons, when Sam wanted to get a point across, he did it best when he spoke calmly and honestly (Bloodlust – “I just want you to be my brother,” and in Children Shouldn’t Play with Dead Things).

Sam was turning into a monster when he was slurping demon blood and he was a monster when he was soulless. That is why Dean had decided it would have to kill him (to protect other people from him) when Death showed up and retrieved his soul.

Sam was being self-righteous in thinking that he was the only one strong enough to kill Lilith; that Dean was left too weak and scared from his Hell experience. That wasn't the only time Sam has been self-righteous (Slash Fiction when LeviSam describes Sam). But there are points in this episode that address the difference in fact checking Sam's argument.

There have been complaints for two seasons that Sam does not get a POV. The audience got Sam’s clear POV in this episode and what I saw, I did not like.

Sam found Dean embarrassing (the donut scene and the job interview scene). That is self-righteous.

Sam feels he doesn’t fit in (lying to Jessica, not being wholly truthful with Amelia, and in this episode, the yoga scene). That is blaming Dean for his own self-esteem.

Dean has protected Sam his entire life (the roofies scene where Sam doesn’t recognize them and Dean asks how he does not (Bad Boys, Metamorphorus, where Dean has gone hungry for Sam, and A Very Supernatural Christmas), and Sam says he only sacrifices when it benefits Dean. The show has in no way ever supported Sam on that one.

Sam tells Dean again in this episode that he will work with him, but he meant it when he said he did not want to be brothers (or even friends), yet when Dean is drugged, Sam rushed to his aid; a real contradiction in actions and words.

Then I go back to every single time that Sam has left or been separated from Dean, it has always been his choice to return, and he has had that choice several times from the Pilot forward.

So, my thinking is, if Sam doesn’t like Dean, doesn’t want to hunt, wants to hunt alone, wants to be his own person, thinks Dean has violated him as a person, then just damned well man up and go do it.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-07 19:46
Gerry, Thank-you for this excellent review of the episode. I have not posted on here for sometime but wanted to say that I agree with everything you have stated. The show has totally been changed for me because of Sam's "honesty". Not sure where Carver is going with this, hopefully somewhere we can all view the brothers in a better light.
Bluepony
# Bluepony 2014-02-07 19:46
Gerry, Thank-you for this excellent review of the episode. I have not posted on here for sometime but wanted to say that I agree with everything you have stated. The show has totally been changed for me because of Sam's "honesty". Not sure where Carver is going with this, hopefully somewhere we can all view the brothers in a better light.
Mia
# Mia 2014-02-07 20:04
Great article, I agree with you completely.
Mia
# Mia 2014-02-07 20:04
Great article, I agree with you completely.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 20:23
Edited by Alice - Geordiegirl1967 , I have not deleted your post. This post is just in the wrong place. We are trying to keep excessive negativity and ranting out of the episode threads. On your behalf, I'll post this to our "I'm Not Happy" thread. I think you'll find a lot of good company there.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread

Again, I must remind, this is the new directive. Negative attitudes will be "checked at the door" so to speak.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/opinion/18258-my-2014-new-year-s-resolution-back-to-basics-for-the-winchester-family-business
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 20:23
Edited by Alice - Geordiegirl1967 , I have not deleted your post. This post is just in the wrong place. We are trying to keep excessive negativity and ranting out of the episode threads. On your behalf, I'll post this to our "I'm Not Happy" thread. I think you'll find a lot of good company there.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread

Again, I must remind, this is the new directive. Negative attitudes will be "checked at the door" so to speak.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/opinion/18258-my-2014-new-year-s-resolution-back-to-basics-for-the-winchester-family-business
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-07 20:34
Quoting njspnfan:
Gerry - interesting review; don't agree with most of your conclusions. In my opinion, this review is quite dismissive of how very, very wrong Dean's actions were in tricking Sam in to being possessed by an angel. Especially given Sam's past of having been possessed by both angels and demons. Dean has never had his autonomy, his agency, taken away from him in the same manner. When I viewed the last scene, I saw Sam as being very tired and exasperated that Dean just didn't get it; if anything, Dean was expecting gratitude on Sam's part. Sam was harsh and part of this was out of anger, but I think a big part of this was also to use as a bludgeon so Dean would LISTEN. Dean's initial response in Road Trip was a half-assed apology and thinking they could put a few W's under their belt and put it behind them. I'm glad to see Sam stand his ground on this one, and not fold as he usually has in the past.

This whole angel possession goes directly against the concept of free will which Sam and Dean have fought so hard for. I'm not saying I don't understand the context under which Dean, as Sam's parent/guardian/brother, made this decision, it was just wrong in every possible way. I also realize this argument is academic - no Sam and Dean, no show, but Dean needs to take his lumps on this one.


Thanks. This is exactly my POV on the talk at the end.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-07 20:34
Quote:
Gerry - interesting review; don't agree with most of your conclusions. In my opinion, this review is quite dismissive of how very, very wrong Dean's actions were in tricking Sam in to being possessed by an angel. Especially given Sam's past of having been possessed by both angels and demons. Dean has never had his autonomy, his agency, taken away from him in the same manner. When I viewed the last scene, I saw Sam as being very tired and exasperated that Dean just didn't get it; if anything, Dean was expecting gratitude on Sam's part. Sam was harsh and part of this was out of anger, but I think a big part of this was also to use as a bludgeon so Dean would LISTEN. Dean's initial response in Road Trip was a half-assed apology and thinking they could put a few W's under their belt and put it behind them. I'm glad to see Sam stand his ground on this one, and not fold as he usually has in the past.

This whole angel possession goes directly against the concept of free will which Sam and Dean have fought so hard for. I'm not saying I don't understand the context under which Dean, as Sam's parent/guardian/brother, made this decision, it was just wrong in every possible way. I also realize this argument is academic - no Sam and Dean, no show, but Dean needs to take his lumps on this one.
Thanks. This is exactly my POV on the talk at the end.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-07 20:37
Quoting percysowner:
I'm in agreement with cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymousN and sylvia37 Sam was the victim here of a huge violation of his body. In this very episode Dean actually underlined it when he told Sam he knew what roofies looked like because he had no desire to end up in a bathtub with a kidney missing. Dean is adamant that he NEVER wants to be in a position when someone can put something in his body and then use it in any way they want while Dean has no control and will have his memory wiped afterward. Yet he is perfectly comfortable doing that to Sam AND he state that he WILL do it again whenever he thinks it's necessary.

I know fans and Dean himself want Sam to hit him, yell at him and then move on. They and he wanted what Gadreel gave him, a quick out with no real repercussions other than a sore jaw and some ringing ears. That isn't the way Sam gets angry and people get to process and express anger any way they want. Dean really screwed up here and he gets to live with Sam, Sam's anger and however Sam wants to express it. In season five Dean told Sam he would never trust him again. He agreed to work with Sam but refused to treat him as an equal partner. He had called Sam a monster even before he knew about the demon blood drinking. He told Sam that Sam ONLY slept with monsters (Jess was in heaven saying "Hold on a minute here!!"). He deliberately threw away the amulet in such a way as to show Sam that he was rejecting SAM. He told Sam he was going to say yes to Michael and let Michael kill millions of people because he knew Sam would never be strong enough to fight Lucifer. And yet there were very few outcries that he was being mean to Sam. Sam himself acknowledged that he had to earn Dean's trust. He told Dean he was sorry for everything he did. He did what he could to stop Lucifer, including finally accepting what he believed would be eternal torture to put Lucifer back in the Cage. And fan reaction was that Sam had done horrible things so no matter what Dean said or did Sam deserved it. To this day people declare Dean should throw Dean out because Sam can never make up, not for releasing Lucifer, because he made that right, but for hurting Dean's feelings.

Now Dean has done something to Sam that I find abhorrent and (if it were me) unforgivable. He roofied Sam and then gaslighted him so that Sam wouldn't realize it. He let Gadreel take over Sam's body and DO THINGS with it, one of which was kill Kevin. He overrode Sam's request to be let go and not be brought back to hurt anyone. As an emergency response it is understandable. But then he lied to Sam and refused to let Sam decide if he wanted his body to be rented out to Zeke, even if Zeke was performing necessary renovations. And with all that, the person getting criticized isn't Dean, it's Sam because "he hurt Dean's feelings". I am not sympathetic.

Nor am I. Dean's a big boy. He needs to learn to deal with the consequences of his actions.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2014-02-07 20:37
Quote:
I'm in agreement with cheryl42, Sharon, Manzanita Crow, anonymousN and sylvia37 Sam was the victim here of a huge violation of his body. In this very episode Dean actually underlined it when he told Sam he knew what roofies looked like because he had no desire to end up in a bathtub with a kidney missing. Dean is adamant that he NEVER wants to be in a position when someone can put something in his body and then use it in any way they want while Dean has no control and will have his memory wiped afterward. Yet he is perfectly comfortable doing that to Sam AND he state that he WILL do it again whenever he thinks it's necessary.

I know fans and Dean himself want Sam to hit him, yell at him and then move on. They and he wanted what Gadreel gave him, a quick out with no real repercussions other than a sore jaw and some ringing ears. That isn't the way Sam gets angry and people get to process and express anger any way they want. Dean really screwed up here and he gets to live with Sam, Sam's anger and however Sam wants to express it. In season five Dean told Sam he would never trust him again. He agreed to work with Sam but refused to treat him as an equal partner. He had called Sam a monster even before he knew about the demon blood drinking. He told Sam that Sam ONLY slept with monsters (Jess was in heaven saying "Hold on a minute here!!"). He deliberately threw away the amulet in such a way as to show Sam that he was rejecting SAM. He told Sam he was going to say yes to Michael and let Michael kill millions of people because he knew Sam would never be strong enough to fight Lucifer. And yet there were very few outcries that he was being mean to Sam. Sam himself acknowledged that he had to earn Dean's trust. He told Dean he was sorry for everything he did. He did what he could to stop Lucifer, including finally accepting what he believed would be eternal torture to put Lucifer back in the Cage. And fan reaction was that Sam had done horrible things so no matter what Dean said or did Sam deserved it. To this day people declare Dean should throw Dean out because Sam can never make up, not for releasing Lucifer, because he made that right, but for hurting Dean's feelings.

Now Dean has done something to Sam that I find abhorrent and (if it were me) unforgivable. He roofied Sam and then gaslighted him so that Sam wouldn't realize it. He let Gadreel take over Sam's body and DO THINGS with it, one of which was kill Kevin. He overrode Sam's request to be let go and not be brought back to hurt anyone. As an emergency response it is understandable. But then he lied to Sam and refused to let Sam decide if he wanted his body to be rented out to Zeke, even if Zeke was performing necessary renovations. And with all that, the person getting criticized isn't Dean, it's Sam because "he hurt Dean's feelings". I am not sympathetic.
Nor am I. Dean's a big boy. He needs to learn to deal with the consequences of his actions.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:07
I will have to say I am surprised over the reaction to what Sam said. I am on the west coast so I cheated and read a few comments before I watched the episode. I was prepared for something truly hideous. I mean the way the comments were going I expected for Sam to have sacrificed a kitten or something. I thought Sam let Dean off pretty easy. He was calm and clear in his statements and he didn't say anything that wasn't true. So the hoopla that has gone on in the fandom is baffling to me. I don't understand why so many fans and reviewers feel that something is broken beyond repair. Just my feelings of course but when Dean first had Sam possessed I thought that the fandom gasped "OMG Dean what did you just do". We all knew that Sam was going to be pissed. And we all hoped that he would not pitch a hissy fit and storm off. Well Dean is the one who left a shattered Sam on the bridge so physically and emotionally drained he couldn't even stand up. Sam has stayed with Dean. He never said we can't be brothers, he never said that he didn't love Dean. He said something is broken. That means something has to be fixed. And when Dean needed him Sam was there. I just don't get it.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:07
I will have to say I am surprised over the reaction to what Sam said. I am on the west coast so I cheated and read a few comments before I watched the episode. I was prepared for something truly hideous. I mean the way the comments were going I expected for Sam to have sacrificed a kitten or something. I thought Sam let Dean off pretty easy. He was calm and clear in his statements and he didn't say anything that wasn't true. So the hoopla that has gone on in the fandom is baffling to me. I don't understand why so many fans and reviewers feel that something is broken beyond repair. Just my feelings of course but when Dean first had Sam possessed I thought that the fandom gasped "OMG Dean what did you just do". We all knew that Sam was going to be pissed. And we all hoped that he would not pitch a hissy fit and storm off. Well Dean is the one who left a shattered Sam on the bridge so physically and emotionally drained he couldn't even stand up. Sam has stayed with Dean. He never said we can't be brothers, he never said that he didn't love Dean. He said something is broken. That means something has to be fixed. And when Dean needed him Sam was there. I just don't get it.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 21:27
Quoting cheryl42:
I will have to say I am surprised over the reaction to what Sam said. I am on the west coast so I cheated and read a few comments before I watched the episode. I was prepared for something truly hideous. I mean the way the comments were going I expected for Sam to have sacrificed a kitten or something. I thought Sam let Dean off pretty easy. He was calm and clear in his statements and he didn't say anything that wasn't true. So the hoopla that has gone on in the fandom is baffling to me. I don't understand why so many fans and reviewers feel that something is broken beyond repair. Just my feelings of course but when Dean first had Sam possessed I thought that the fandom gasped "OMG Dean what did you just do". We all knew that Sam was going to be pissed. And we all hoped that he would not pitch a hissy fit and storm off. Well Dean is the one who left a shattered Sam on the bridge so physically and emotionally drained he couldn't even stand up. Sam has stayed with Dean. He never said we can't be brothers, he never said that he didn't love Dean. He said something is broken. That means something has to be fixed. And when Dean needed him Sam was there. I just don't get it.

Sorry Cheryl but I'm not sure we watched the same 2 eps. Sam did say we can't be brothers. And while no one blames Sam for being angry his words to Dean were irredeemably and IMO unforgivably cruel. What he said about the angel possession is understandable, but to diminish everything else Dean has done for him, to accuse Dean of selfishness, and to state outright that he wouldn't save Dean (which is doubly cruel as he didn't look for Dean in Purgatory) all add up to Dean hearing 'I don't love you and I resent all the things you have done for me and everything you have sacrificed to keep me safe'.

I'm not going to try to make sense of all that in terms of Sam's character or Dean's or to link it to their history or canon. Because it cannot be explained in those terms. That conversation was an egregious and appalling assassination of the characters and of their bond. It wasn't credible. I didn't believe for one second that the real Sam would ever say those things to Dean. It was rank bad writing that diminished to the point of destroying the bond between the brothers that has been the heart of this show since ep1. Disgust and disappointment with this scene is widespread across the fandom.

I'm glad it wasn't such a big deal for you. I wish I could say the same. It has stomped all over my love for this show.

(Warning from Alice - Please, keep the temper to a minimum. We're trying to avoid excessive negatively here. I'll allow what you wrote though, but it's posts like these that really turn off lurkers).
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 21:27
Quote:
I will have to say I am surprised over the reaction to what Sam said. I am on the west coast so I cheated and read a few comments before I watched the episode. I was prepared for something truly hideous. I mean the way the comments were going I expected for Sam to have sacrificed a kitten or something. I thought Sam let Dean off pretty easy. He was calm and clear in his statements and he didn't say anything that wasn't true. So the hoopla that has gone on in the fandom is baffling to me. I don't understand why so many fans and reviewers feel that something is broken beyond repair. Just my feelings of course but when Dean first had Sam possessed I thought that the fandom gasped "OMG Dean what did you just do". We all knew that Sam was going to be pissed. And we all hoped that he would not pitch a hissy fit and storm off. Well Dean is the one who left a shattered Sam on the bridge so physically and emotionally drained he couldn't even stand up. Sam has stayed with Dean. He never said we can't be brothers, he never said that he didn't love Dean. He said something is broken. That means something has to be fixed. And when Dean needed him Sam was there. I just don't get it.
Sorry Cheryl but I'm not sure we watched the same 2 eps. Sam did say we can't be brothers. And while no one blames Sam for being angry his words to Dean were irredeemably and IMO unforgivably cruel. What he said about the angel possession is understandable, but to diminish everything else Dean has done for him, to accuse Dean of selfishness, and to state outright that he wouldn't save Dean (which is doubly cruel as he didn't look for Dean in Purgatory) all add up to Dean hearing 'I don't love you and I resent all the things you have done for me and everything you have sacrificed to keep me safe'.

I'm not going to try to make sense of all that in terms of Sam's character or Dean's or to link it to their history or canon. Because it cannot be explained in those terms. That conversation was an egregious and appalling assassination of the characters and of their bond. It wasn't credible. I didn't believe for one second that the real Sam would ever say those things to Dean. It was rank bad writing that diminished to the point of destroying the bond between the brothers that has been the heart of this show since ep1. Disgust and disappointment with this scene is widespread across the fandom.

I'm glad it wasn't such a big deal for you. I wish I could say the same. It has stomped all over my love for this show.

(Warning from Alice - Please, keep the temper to a minimum. We're trying to avoid excessive negatively here. I'll allow what you wrote though, but it's posts like these that really turn off lurkers).
Tristan
# Tristan 2014-02-07 21:29
(Edited by Alice - Try this comment again, and next time leave the Sam vs. Dean attitude out of it. I get it, some harsh opinions are being stirred up here, but could you please make your point with a lot less attitude?)
Tristan
# Tristan 2014-02-07 21:29
(Edited by Alice - Try this comment again, and next time leave the Sam vs. Dean attitude out of it. I get it, some harsh opinions are being stirred up here, but could you please make your point with a lot less attitude?)
obsessed
# obsessed 2014-02-07 21:30
Gerry, Amen! You summed up my feelings much more eloquently than I could have. I love Sam & I know he has a legitimate complaint but I don't agree with the him right now. I will never be able to watch that last scene again much like I never rewatch the scene when Dean told Sam that he didn't trust him anymore. Totally breaks my heart for them to talk to each other in that way.
obsessed
# obsessed 2014-02-07 21:30
Gerry, Amen! You summed up my feelings much more eloquently than I could have. I love Sam & I know he has a legitimate complaint but I don't agree with the him right now. I will never be able to watch that last scene again much like I never rewatch the scene when Dean told Sam that he didn't trust him anymore. Totally breaks my heart for them to talk to each other in that way.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:39
Yes I did watch the same two episodes as you did. I know how you feel about the show and I respect that. I came away with a different perception than you. I am not wrong in my comments and neither are you we just see the show differently. I still enjoy the show so I am a glass half full kind of viewer. I know from your comments that you do not enjoy the show so your point of view is different than mine. I was not targeting any poster in particular I was just stating what my own perception was of the episode. I think it is one that is shared by some and not by others. I'm cool with it either way.

(Comments by Alice - There's nothing wrong with your post, but who were you addressing this to? If someone is disrespecting your opinion, I'd like to take care of that).
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:39
Yes I did watch the same two episodes as you did. I know how you feel about the show and I respect that. I came away with a different perception than you. I am not wrong in my comments and neither are you we just see the show differently. I still enjoy the show so I am a glass half full kind of viewer. I know from your comments that you do not enjoy the show so your point of view is different than mine. I was not targeting any poster in particular I was just stating what my own perception was of the episode. I think it is one that is shared by some and not by others. I'm cool with it either way.

(Comments by Alice - There's nothing wrong with your post, but who were you addressing this to? If someone is disrespecting your opinion, I'd like to take care of that).
Tristan
# Tristan 2014-02-07 21:39
Oh I forgot it was Sam's idea to be possessed by Lucifer, (the devil) to go to hell, a far worse fate than being healed and saved by a good angel (Ezekiel). Totally different thing sorry. But let us all twist it so it tries to excuse poor Sam.
Tristan
# Tristan 2014-02-07 21:39
Oh I forgot it was Sam's idea to be possessed by Lucifer, (the devil) to go to hell, a far worse fate than being healed and saved by a good angel (Ezekiel). Totally different thing sorry. But let us all twist it so it tries to excuse poor Sam.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:46
(Edited by Alice - I don't know what post you're addressing, but I think I edited it. So no need for the comment).
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:46
(Edited by Alice - I don't know what post you're addressing, but I think I edited it. So no need for the comment).
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-07 21:49
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-07 21:49
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 21:51
Quoting cheryl42:
Yes I did watch the same two episodes as you did. I know how you feel about the show and I respect that. I came away with a different perception than you. I am not wrong in my comments and neither are you we just see the show differently. I still enjoy the show so I am a glass half full kind of viewer. I know from your comments that you do not enjoy the show so your point of view is different than mine. I was not targeting any poster in particular I was just stating what my own perception was of the episode. I think it is one that is shared by some and not by others. I'm cool with it either way.

I respect your pov too. I wasn't judging, just pointing out that a LOT of people are incredibly upset and disappointed with that last scene.

Btw I am not generally a negative poster. I absolutely DO enjoy the show. Or rather I did. The way I feel right now though I'm afraid I might never enjoy it again.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 21:51
Quote:
Yes I did watch the same two episodes as you did. I know how you feel about the show and I respect that. I came away with a different perception than you. I am not wrong in my comments and neither are you we just see the show differently. I still enjoy the show so I am a glass half full kind of viewer. I know from your comments that you do not enjoy the show so your point of view is different than mine. I was not targeting any poster in particular I was just stating what my own perception was of the episode. I think it is one that is shared by some and not by others. I'm cool with it either way.
I respect your pov too. I wasn't judging, just pointing out that a LOT of people are incredibly upset and disappointed with that last scene.

Btw I am not generally a negative poster. I absolutely DO enjoy the show. Or rather I did. The way I feel right now though I'm afraid I might never enjoy it again.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:54
No worries. I hope the show surprises us all (in a good way).
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-07 21:54
No worries. I hope the show surprises us all (in a good way).
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 21:56
Quoting percysowner:
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.

PO you know, I think, that I love Sam. But I cannot defend what he said in this episode. That is because I cannot reconcile what he said with the Sam I know and love. The real Sam would never be so cruel. Nor would he diminish everything Dean has done for him.

I don't think I'll be posting much in future because I can no longer discuss what happens in the show in the context of the story and characters. To me they no longer hang together. I see the incompetent sticky fingers of the writers all over everything - ruining it all. So discussion is hard and defending Sam is, I'm sorry, impossible for me.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-07 21:56
Quote:
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.
PO you know, I think, that I love Sam. But I cannot defend what he said in this episode. That is because I cannot reconcile what he said with the Sam I know and love. The real Sam would never be so cruel. Nor would he diminish everything Dean has done for him.

I don't think I'll be posting much in future because I can no longer discuss what happens in the show in the context of the story and characters. To me they no longer hang together. I see the incompetent sticky fingers of the writers all over everything - ruining it all. So discussion is hard and defending Sam is, I'm sorry, impossible for me.
htbrown07
# htbrown07 2014-02-07 22:32
I am fairly new to this show and fandom, but I am amazed at the number of "fair weather" fans. Some of you are seriously saying that you have watched it for years and suddenly, in the span of two episodes , you are ready to give it up. All the negativity, arguing, etc. Was it like this in seasons 4&5, or the first half of season 8 when the brothers were at odds?
htbrown07
# htbrown07 2014-02-07 22:32
I am fairly new to this show and fandom, but I am amazed at the number of "fair weather" fans. Some of you are seriously saying that you have watched it for years and suddenly, in the span of two episodes , you are ready to give it up. All the negativity, arguing, etc. Was it like this in seasons 4&5, or the first half of season 8 when the brothers were at odds?
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-07 22:40
Let me first say I knew this review would not be for everyone when I wrote it. I checked with Alice before I sent it in for posting. I understand many of you have very different feelings.

These are my feelings. I wish I didn't have them, but I do. I hope the rest of the season shows me how to process what I've seen since season 8. I have my doubts, but I still hope.

Several posters have mentioned they are surprised I'm angry at Sam for being angry about Gadreel. I'm not. I don't think Sam's attitude to the prospect of dying is black and white, but I understand his feelings about possession.

What I am having a great deal of trouble with is the way Sam has expanded the Gadreel issue into a much larger one, encompassing not only the last 9 years, but really Dean's personality. To my eyes, he's judging who Dean is without much understanding of who Dean is.

I don't believe Dean as a hero has done more harm than good. I don't believe that about Sam, either. They've both made mistakes, but in the big picture, the two of them were always going to end up in Detroit. The only question is what would happen when they got there.

What I have loved about this story is the boys' weakness is also their strength. Demons and angels used their love to manipulate them to push their plan along. Dean brought Sam back and sent himself to hell - something that certainly brought him pain.

But that same love is what made him not give up in Swan Song and reach Sam through Lucifer. Love makes us vulnerable and it also makes us strong. John had to learn that lesson in season one, when he thought pushing his kids away was the secret, rather than working together.

If Dean had not brought Sam back in season three, the Apocalypse would not have been averted. Jake would have been the vessel, just as Adam turned out to be Michael's when Dean refused to consent. All roads led to Detroit.

In my read, Dean's choices about Sam have not over and over led to hurting other people. He saved Sam once, which later allowed him to help Sam sacrifice himself at the most important moment. Two sides of love, both important.

He was prepared to risk Sam's life to put back his soul, because otherwise Sam's sacrifice to define himself was invalidated.

He sacrificed his friendship with Benny to save Sam from Purgatory, which helped save the world again.

He asked Sam to let go of the trials because unlike the Apocalypse, neither Sam nor Dean knew what the impact of closing the gates of hell would be, so Sam's death was not necessary in the way it was to stop Lucifer.

If Sam was only talking about the Gadreel situation, I would have far fewer reservations about this story. But I don't agree with Sam's assessment that Dean has done more harm than good nor that his love is selfish. Love is complex. Sam's love is equally complex.

Carver seems to be trying to reframe the entire Apocalyptic storyline into one of selfishness, when in Kripke's hands, it was about love and family.

To a previous poster who asked why Dean gets away with saying hurtful things to Sam, I would say the story doesnèt let him get away with it. He was always called on it and usually quickly.

In season four, when Sam chose Ruby after almost choking Dean to death, Dean was justifiably angry and told Bobby he was done, walking away. And Bobby told him boo hoo, suck it up princess and realize Sam needed him more than he ever had.

After allowing Sam to walk away in season five and then refusing to accept him back, Dean immediately was taken to a future without Sam, with the express intention of making him see how destructive his bond with Sam is. Instead, Dean realized the value of Sam in his life and reached out to him.

In Kripke's story, the way the brothers always chose each other was the key to fighting both demons and angels, because love is much harder to manipulate than anger or revenge. Not impossible, of course, but Lucifer had much fewer tactics against it than he did the anger and hurt he fanned in Sam and Dean.

So now, while Sam has every right to make Dean understand how he felt about the possession, I find his arguments about Dean's failures as a person far too sweeping. If I thought the writers were going to address them the way they addressed Dean's judgement of Sam in season four and five, I'd be happier.

However, I know there are different interpretations and at this point, we just have to wait and see. Perhaps the writers will surprise me with how they address the relationship. I hope so.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-07 22:40
Let me first say I knew this review would not be for everyone when I wrote it. I checked with Alice before I sent it in for posting. I understand many of you have very different feelings.

These are my feelings. I wish I didn't have them, but I do. I hope the rest of the season shows me how to process what I've seen since season 8. I have my doubts, but I still hope.

Several posters have mentioned they are surprised I'm angry at Sam for being angry about Gadreel. I'm not. I don't think Sam's attitude to the prospect of dying is black and white, but I understand his feelings about possession.

What I am having a great deal of trouble with is the way Sam has expanded the Gadreel issue into a much larger one, encompassing not only the last 9 years, but really Dean's personality. To my eyes, he's judging who Dean is without much understanding of who Dean is.

I don't believe Dean as a hero has done more harm than good. I don't believe that about Sam, either. They've both made mistakes, but in the big picture, the two of them were always going to end up in Detroit. The only question is what would happen when they got there.

What I have loved about this story is the boys' weakness is also their strength. Demons and angels used their love to manipulate them to push their plan along. Dean brought Sam back and sent himself to hell - something that certainly brought him pain.

But that same love is what made him not give up in Swan Song and reach Sam through Lucifer. Love makes us vulnerable and it also makes us strong. John had to learn that lesson in season one, when he thought pushing his kids away was the secret, rather than working together.

If Dean had not brought Sam back in season three, the Apocalypse would not have been averted. Jake would have been the vessel, just as Adam turned out to be Michael's when Dean refused to consent. All roads led to Detroit.

In my read, Dean's choices about Sam have not over and over led to hurting other people. He saved Sam once, which later allowed him to help Sam sacrifice himself at the most important moment. Two sides of love, both important.

He was prepared to risk Sam's life to put back his soul, because otherwise Sam's sacrifice to define himself was invalidated.

He sacrificed his friendship with Benny to save Sam from Purgatory, which helped save the world again.

He asked Sam to let go of the trials because unlike the Apocalypse, neither Sam nor Dean knew what the impact of closing the gates of hell would be, so Sam's death was not necessary in the way it was to stop Lucifer.

If Sam was only talking about the Gadreel situation, I would have far fewer reservations about this story. But I don't agree with Sam's assessment that Dean has done more harm than good nor that his love is selfish. Love is complex. Sam's love is equally complex.

Carver seems to be trying to reframe the entire Apocalyptic storyline into one of selfishness, when in Kripke's hands, it was about love and family.

To a previous poster who asked why Dean gets away with saying hurtful things to Sam, I would say the story doesnèt let him get away with it. He was always called on it and usually quickly.

In season four, when Sam chose Ruby after almost choking Dean to death, Dean was justifiably angry and told Bobby he was done, walking away. And Bobby told him boo hoo, suck it up princess and realize Sam needed him more than he ever had.

After allowing Sam to walk away in season five and then refusing to accept him back, Dean immediately was taken to a future without Sam, with the express intention of making him see how destructive his bond with Sam is. Instead, Dean realized the value of Sam in his life and reached out to him.

In Kripke's story, the way the brothers always chose each other was the key to fighting both demons and angels, because love is much harder to manipulate than anger or revenge. Not impossible, of course, but Lucifer had much fewer tactics against it than he did the anger and hurt he fanned in Sam and Dean.

So now, while Sam has every right to make Dean understand how he felt about the possession, I find his arguments about Dean's failures as a person far too sweeping. If I thought the writers were going to address them the way they addressed Dean's judgement of Sam in season four and five, I'd be happier.

However, I know there are different interpretations and at this point, we just have to wait and see. Perhaps the writers will surprise me with how they address the relationship. I hope so.
alice
# alice 2014-02-08 00:54
Sigh, I tried to edit all these comments while watching the Olympics with my family. So glad everyone is deciding to behave... :(

What is wrong with permitting a writer to write things from the Dean fan POV? Why in the world is that wrong? I'm not saying I agree. Heck, this and other threads are inspiring me to write a "In Defense of Sam Winchester" article. But if you don't like what's said, how about giving a sound argument about why you disagree instead of going into negative rants, attacking other posters, insulting the writer, insulting the editor for publishing the article (big mistake!). I've edited a TON of comments tonight. Heck, I almost unpublished every comment in this thread and called a do-over.

Here's a link to our rules. Study them. Follow them. For Chucks sake, please respect them.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules

If you're not happy and want to rant, here's the I'm Not Happy thread:

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread
Alice
# Alice 2014-02-08 00:54
Sigh, I tried to edit all these comments while watching the Olympics with my family. So glad everyone is deciding to behave... :(

What is wrong with permitting a writer to write things from the Dean fan POV? Why in the world is that wrong? I'm not saying I agree. Heck, this and other threads are inspiring me to write a "In Defense of Sam Winchester" article. But if you don't like what's said, how about giving a sound argument about why you disagree instead of going into negative rants, attacking other posters, insulting the writer, insulting the editor for publishing the article (big mistake!). I've edited a TON of comments tonight. Heck, I almost unpublished every comment in this thread and called a do-over.

Here's a link to our rules. Study them. Follow them. For Chucks sake, please respect them.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/64-rules

If you're not happy and want to rant, here's the I'm Not Happy thread:

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/18331-let-s-discuss-the-supernatural-i-m-not-happy-thread
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 01:26
I will try to explain how I see things.Quote:
Sam was being self-righteous in thinking that he was the only one strong enough to kill Lilith;
Sam was right in thinking that he could kill Lilith and Dean cannot.They could not kill Tammy in that witch coven episode.Lilith could not kill Sam with her powers.So logically Sam can and Dean cannot.Quote:
Sam was turning into a monster when he was slurping demon blood and he was a monster when he was soulless. That is why Dean had decided it would have to kill him (to protect other people from him) when Death showed up and retrieved his soul.
Sam drinking blood is much better than Sam flipping his switch and that was his decision ,He did not make Dean drink blood.For me it is that it was Sam's decision and not something which Dean made him do or tricked him.It can be said it was because of Azazel but Sam could still have not drunk blood.Sam being soulless was again without his consent and a "friend" who caused it.Quote:
The audience got Sam’s clear POV in this episode and what I saw, I did not like.
I liked it.Quote:
Sam found Dean embarrassing (the donut scene and the job interview scene).
Dean was being embarrassing.I don't think Sam found it embarrassing but I thought he was irritated.That is not self-righteousness.Quote:
Sam feels he doesn’t fit in (lying to Jessica, not being wholly truthful with Amelia, and in this episode, the yoga scene). That is blaming Dean for his own self-esteem.
Or maybe because Sam feels he does not fit in.I don't understand Sam not fitting in is blaming Dean.The examples you gave don't say any such thing.Quote:
Dean has protected Sam his entire life (the roofies scene where Sam doesn’t recognize them and Dean asks how he does not (Bad Boys, Metamorphorus, where Dean has gone hungry for Sam, and A Very Supernatural Christmas), and Sam says he only sacrifices when it benefits Dean. The show has in no way ever supported Sam on that one.
Dean does not do it just for "family" and the show has supported this.Dean does it for his family and because he does not want to be alone.Quote:
Sam tells Dean again in this episode that he will work with him, but he meant it when he said he did not want to be brothers (or even friends), yet when Dean is drugged, Sam rushed to his aid; a real contradiction in actions and words.
I really don't understand this statement.Do co-workers not worry when the other is in danger?Quote:
Then I go back to every single time that Sam has left or been separated from Dean, it has always been his choice to return, and he has had that choice several times from the Pilot forward.
That has not stopped anyone from blaming him.What I say is he is not wrong to want toseparate from Dean.The same way how Dean was is this season.Dean is not wrong to separate from sam.If he wants to do something just be up front about it.Quote:
So, my thinking is, if Sam doesn’t like Dean, doesn’t want to hunt, wants to hunt alone, wants to be his own person, thinks Dean has violated him as a person, then just damned well man up and go do it.
Why should he make it easy for Dean.Even if he gives a little slack it will again be "family".He has "manned up" and has told in the only way Dean can get it how his actions have affected him personally.But if Dean cannot listen he owns Baby not sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 01:26
I will try to explain how I see things.Quote:
Sam was being self-righteous in thinking that he was the only one strong enough to kill Lilith;
Sam was right in thinking that he could kill Lilith and Dean cannot.They could not kill Tammy in that witch coven episode.Lilith could not kill Sam with her powers.So logically Sam can and Dean cannot.Quote:
Sam was turning into a monster when he was slurping demon blood and he was a monster when he was soulless. That is why Dean had decided it would have to kill him (to protect other people from him) when Death showed up and retrieved his soul.
Sam drinking blood is much better than Sam flipping his switch and that was his decision ,He did not make Dean drink blood.For me it is that it was Sam's decision and not something which Dean made him do or tricked him.It can be said it was because of Azazel but Sam could still have not drunk blood.Sam being soulless was again without his consent and a "friend" who caused it.Quote:
The audience got Sam’s clear POV in this episode and what I saw, I did not like.
I liked it.Quote:
Sam found Dean embarrassing (the donut scene and the job interview scene).
Dean was being embarrassing.I don't think Sam found it embarrassing but I thought he was irritated.That is not self-righteousness.Quote:
Sam feels he doesn’t fit in (lying to Jessica, not being wholly truthful with Amelia, and in this episode, the yoga scene). That is blaming Dean for his own self-esteem.
Or maybe because Sam feels he does not fit in.I don't understand Sam not fitting in is blaming Dean.The examples you gave don't say any such thing.Quote:
Dean has protected Sam his entire life (the roofies scene where Sam doesn’t recognize them and Dean asks how he does not (Bad Boys, Metamorphorus, where Dean has gone hungry for Sam, and A Very Supernatural Christmas), and Sam says he only sacrifices when it benefits Dean. The show has in no way ever supported Sam on that one.
Dean does not do it just for "family" and the show has supported this.Dean does it for his family and because he does not want to be alone.Quote:
Sam tells Dean again in this episode that he will work with him, but he meant it when he said he did not want to be brothers (or even friends), yet when Dean is drugged, Sam rushed to his aid; a real contradiction in actions and words.
I really don't understand this statement.Do co-workers not worry when the other is in danger?Quote:
Then I go back to every single time that Sam has left or been separated from Dean, it has always been his choice to return, and he has had that choice several times from the Pilot forward.
That has not stopped anyone from blaming him.What I say is he is not wrong to want toseparate from Dean.The same way how Dean was is this season.Dean is not wrong to separate from sam.If he wants to do something just be up front about it.Quote:
So, my thinking is, if Sam doesn’t like Dean, doesn’t want to hunt, wants to hunt alone, wants to be his own person, thinks Dean has violated him as a person, then just damned well man up and go do it.
Why should he make it easy for Dean.Even if he gives a little slack it will again be "family".He has "manned up" and has told in the only way Dean can get it how his actions have affected him personally.But if Dean cannot listen he owns Baby not sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 01:37
Quoting Tristan:
Oh I forgot it was Sam's idea to be possessed by Lucifer, (the devil) to go to hell, a far worse fate than being healed and saved by a good angel (Ezekiel). Totally different thing sorry. But let us all twist it so it tries to excuse poor Sam.

The former was Sam's choice and the latter was murder of Sam's choice and that was bad angel Gadreel and not the good but dead angel ezekiel.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 01:40
Quoting percysowner:
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.

Agree and I will make an account in LJ.Thank you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 01:40
Quote:
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.
Agree and I will make an account in LJ.Thank you.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 01:54
repost
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 01:54
repost
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 02:01
Quote:
In season four, when Sam chose Ruby after almost choking Dean to death, Dean was justifiably angry and told Bobby he was done, walking away. And Bobby told him boo hoo, suck it up princess and realize Sam needed him more than he ever had. After allowing Sam to walk away in season five and then refusing to accept him back, Dean immediately was taken to a future without Sam, with the express intention of making him see how destructive his bond with Sam is. Instead, Dean realized the value of Sam in his life and reached out to him.
But Dean was angry.Sam is angry now.Dean's decision were never 100% selfish or 100% selfless.They are thinking in two opposite
understanding and both are not correct.Is Sam wrong to voice out what he sees?No for me.Was it necessary for Sam to be so brutal?Absolute ly necessary?Yes because Dean was not listening.Dean has to start to listen first.Dean's choices have led to people close to them being hurt but more importantly by Sam's hands not Dean's.Sam simply cannot have that.All of Dean's decisions have made it possible to make Sam responsible (not completely) where he would not have be .Apocalyse would have happened,Gates of hell would have opened but Sam would have no part to play in it.In the show The number of times sam has been blamed (even by a hunter recently) and much much much more than he is given credit for stopping apocalypse.Heck Dean has been credited more and exclusively for that.For me as a Sam fan Dean's choices have been detrimental to Sam and to the world.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 02:01
Quote:
In season four, when Sam chose Ruby after almost choking Dean to death, Dean was justifiably angry and told Bobby he was done, walking away. And Bobby told him boo hoo, suck it up princess and realize Sam needed him more than he ever had. After allowing Sam to walk away in season five and then refusing to accept him back, Dean immediately was taken to a future without Sam, with the express intention of making him see how destructive his bond with Sam is. Instead, Dean realized the value of Sam in his life and reached out to him.
But Dean was angry.Sam is angry now.Dean's decision were never 100% selfish or 100% selfless.They are thinking in two opposite
understanding and both are not correct.Is Sam wrong to voice out what he sees?No for me.Was it necessary for Sam to be so brutal?Absolute ly necessary?Yes because Dean was not listening.Dean has to start to listen first.Dean's choices have led to people close to them being hurt but more importantly by Sam's hands not Dean's.Sam simply cannot have that.All of Dean's decisions have made it possible to make Sam responsible (not completely) where he would not have be .Apocalyse would have happened,Gates of hell would have opened but Sam would have no part to play in it.In the show The number of times sam has been blamed (even by a hunter recently) and much much much more than he is given credit for stopping apocalypse.Heck Dean has been credited more and exclusively for that.For me as a Sam fan Dean's choices have been detrimental to Sam and to the world.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-08 02:47
I'm sorry Alice I didn't realize I was saying inappropriate things. I don't mean to be disrespectful to Gerry or the WFB. GG and I had I thought a respectful disagreement about our perceptions of the show. Going back I realize I didn't direct my post towards hers. I apologize.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-08 02:47
I'm sorry Alice I didn't realize I was saying inappropriate things. I don't mean to be disrespectful to Gerry or the WFB. GG and I had I thought a respectful disagreement about our perceptions of the show. Going back I realize I didn't direct my post towards hers. I apologize.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-08 03:47
I admit Gerry your article was not my cup of tea and realized it was from a Dean pov . You were hurt on Dean's behalf and I am hurt on Sam's behalf so like I said we are on different path's.

The fact the victim in this Sam actually needs defending is a sad and disturbing testament to the show and in particular the fandom.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-08 03:47
I admit Gerry your article was not my cup of tea and realized it was from a Dean pov . You were hurt on Dean's behalf and I am hurt on Sam's behalf so like I said we are on different path's.

The fact the victim in this Sam actually needs defending is a sad and disturbing testament to the show and in particular the fandom.
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-02-08 05:03
Quoting anonymousN:
Quoting percysowner:
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.

Agree and I will make an account in LJ.


Thank you for this Percysowner. I too will make a LJ account. I'd like to read those reviews. Or could I PM you at Supernatural TV? Do you still have an account there?

I hope that you write your "In Defense of Sam Winchester" article, Alice. It would be good to see such an article. I'll keep an eye out for it as I would very much appreciate reading it.
Gwen
# Gwen 2014-02-08 05:03
Quote:
Quote:
@29nappi815 I too disagree with most of this review. However Gerry is a writer for this site and she merely stated her opinion on how she viewed this episode. She spent her time and energy to write this and she has every right to call this as she sees this. It is unfortunate from our POV that most of the reviewers on this site do not see Sam's actions the way we do. But that's life.

I am percysowner at livejournal and pretty much everywhere. If you have an LJ account PM me and I can refer you to some reviews that are more positive about Sam and his actions. They may give you another place to discuss Supernatural. This invitation goes out to anyone who wants to get through the mini-hiatus and possibly the end of the season with people who think Sam didn't behave badly.

If you don't have an LJ account I will make my last post on Supernatural public and you can send me your email and I'll give you the information that way.

Or you can PM me on IMDB under percysowner.
Agree and I will make an account in LJ.
Thank you for this Percysowner. I too will make a LJ account. I'd like to read those reviews. Or could I PM you at Supernatural TV? Do you still have an account there?

I hope that you write your "In Defense of Sam Winchester" article, Alice. It would be good to see such an article. I'll keep an eye out for it as I would very much appreciate reading it.
kaz1
# kaz1 2014-02-08 05:07
Gerry thank you so much for IMO a very honest critique of this very divisive episode. Oh my how the fandom are digging trenches!
For my part I feel that Sam is experiencing this level of emotional pain precisely because he loves his brother so much. Carver and his bunch of sadistic writers have a plan methinks. I have never seen Sam this cruel before. But ... I am rather intrigued about the convo with Sam and the fat sucking lady monster. The writers practically smacked the audience over the head with how empathetic he was with her. And this in stark contrast to the way he was dealing with Dean. Ohh I think this story is faaar from over. Our old Sam is still there, my 2 cents worth says that the mark of Cain is having an affect on all Dean's relationships. If I remember correctly wasn't Cain doomed to wander the earth friendless and alone? I think this is what Cain was trying to warn Dean about. Dean the silly goose didn't listen. I suck at predictions though.
kaz1
# kaz1 2014-02-08 05:07
Gerry thank you so much for IMO a very honest critique of this very divisive episode. Oh my how the fandom are digging trenches!
For my part I feel that Sam is experiencing this level of emotional pain precisely because he loves his brother so much. Carver and his bunch of sadistic writers have a plan methinks. I have never seen Sam this cruel before. But ... I am rather intrigued about the convo with Sam and the fat sucking lady monster. The writers practically smacked the audience over the head with how empathetic he was with her. And this in stark contrast to the way he was dealing with Dean. Ohh I think this story is faaar from over. Our old Sam is still there, my 2 cents worth says that the mark of Cain is having an affect on all Dean's relationships. If I remember correctly wasn't Cain doomed to wander the earth friendless and alone? I think this is what Cain was trying to warn Dean about. Dean the silly goose didn't listen. I suck at predictions though.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-08 08:41
Here is my thought. After Sam messed up, Dean had The End in season 5. When he let Sam leave at the end of Good God, Y'All, and then said no to Sam when Sam wanted to come back at the beginning of The End, he was then thrust into the future and learned what would happen if the brothers were not together. Dean learned they keep each other human - both of them. In that alternate 2014, Sam said yes to Lucifer and could not fight him AND Dean became someone that would feed his friends into a meat grinder without thinking twice. In season 9, after Dean messed up, Sam let Dean walk away, and when Dean wanted to come back, Sam let him. But, Sam did not have the benefit of that lesson of The End. I think Sam has to figure out that if they are not brothers, they do not keep each other human. They are both better when they are together - not just Dean. I wonder if something will happen in the next few episodes to teach Sam that same lesson, and then he will accept Dean as his brother again - and not just a co-worker.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-08 08:41
Here is my thought. After Sam messed up, Dean had The End in season 5. When he let Sam leave at the end of Good God, Y'All, and then said no to Sam when Sam wanted to come back at the beginning of The End, he was then thrust into the future and learned what would happen if the brothers were not together. Dean learned they keep each other human - both of them. In that alternate 2014, Sam said yes to Lucifer and could not fight him AND Dean became someone that would feed his friends into a meat grinder without thinking twice. In season 9, after Dean messed up, Sam let Dean walk away, and when Dean wanted to come back, Sam let him. But, Sam did not have the benefit of that lesson of The End. I think Sam has to figure out that if they are not brothers, they do not keep each other human. They are both better when they are together - not just Dean. I wonder if something will happen in the next few episodes to teach Sam that same lesson, and then he will accept Dean as his brother again - and not just a co-worker.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 08:50
the perspective of this post is directed at how much sam doesn't understand dean. i think it's safe to say that dean doesn't understand sam as well. isn't that what jeremy carver and co. are finally trying to accomplish here? after all these years, to finally have the boys understand ea. other, accept ea. other, and relate to one another as the men they've become? from what i see, carver is trying to accomplish what no showrunner has yet attempted to do, stop the cycle, deal with the issues that have never been dealt with and have a relationship based on mutual understanding, equality, respect for ea. other and the decisions they make, and most of all love ea other as the men they are now and not the boys they were then.
love is a powerful word thrown around and many posts have slanted that love as one brother's love for his brother(dean) being stronger than the other's(sam) which imo is horse puckey.
let's attempt to try to see things as it's possible sam may see it.
dean sold his soul for sam and the belief is that it was out of love alone. selfish or selfless? well sam was in heaven and there's no reason to think he'd be anywhere else. in later eps ash told sam he'd been in heaven a few times. we have also got a glimpse of what heaven was like and the connections souls have to one another up there. so imo i think it's safe to say that sam may very well have ended up being with jess and/or his mom. but dean, as he stated in his speech to sam, couldn't let him down. how can he live with that? so i question dean's motives here? did he save sam out of love or responsibility that he felt he had towards his brother? personally, i'd say it's 50/50.
as a result of this save look what's happened. your opinion is that hell's gate would've opened and that may be so, but what about the breaking of the first seal?
so sam is back and believe me i am grateful to dean, but still it doesn't make dean's actions any less self serving. what becomes of sam's return? let's make an attempt to try and see things the way sam might? as a result of dean's actions, sam is now burdened with the same knowledge of dean's imment trip to hell and it's because of him. he didn't ask dean to do it. he told him he shouldn't have done it, but dean in essence placed the responsibility on sam to save him any way he can. because sam loves dean. so thus continues the cycle that started with mom, continued with dad and now dean. sam tried in most every episode in s3 to save dean and dean stopped him because if they weaseled out on the deal sam dies. point i'm trying to make there, which i think is kind of important, sam respects dean's wishes. he doesn't override dean's decision. in the end dean ends up dead, sam helpless to save him. life long traumatic event anyone? now sam has to live knowing dean is not only dead, but he's suffering in hell. and look at the events that followed. sam made the decisions he did, but would it have come to that if extreme measures had not been taken by dean in the first place.
sam's decision to drink db is constantly thrown back in his face. but how was it that it happened in the first place? dean is dead in hell. sam is unable to free him. we see him drinking and suicidal and full of such self loathing it's seeping out of every pore in his body. ironically and for her own selfish reasons, the only one who brought sam back from that was ruby, who swooped in and played on every broken emotion sam had. she gave him purpose, even if that purpose was revenge. so i can say that it was sam's love for his brother that led to his path of self destruction in the first place, much like dean's love for sam helped him reach that path.
yed told dean in ahbl2 that it was his self destructive nature and the need to do anything for his family that he counted on. that right there is one of the key issues that the writers introduced in dean and have never dealt with. it plays a part in dean's decisions to use extreme measures and mess with the natural order in the first place, and not just with sam.
sam's pov: dean's selfish act of resurrection(he told dean that he remembered what dad's deal did to his father and now he's doing it to him. dean's response he was ok with that, after all he'd done for his family, in his mind he was allowed to inflict pain and guilt on sam) that's a messed up way to show someone you love them. dean's one act was the match that lit the fuse. dean ends up in hell and thus breaks the first seal allowing for the angels who were conning dean and sam, to let the rest of the seals start breaking. the final seal being the death of lilith which both boys believed would be what would stop the seals and avert the apocalypse. both boys were played there.
it leads up to sam stopping lucifer the only way they could, jumping into the pit. he didn't want to, but he said, there was no choice.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 08:50
the perspective of this post is directed at how much sam doesn't understand dean. i think it's safe to say that dean doesn't understand sam as well. isn't that what jeremy carver and co. are finally trying to accomplish here? after all these years, to finally have the boys understand ea. other, accept ea. other, and relate to one another as the men they've become? from what i see, carver is trying to accomplish what no showrunner has yet attempted to do, stop the cycle, deal with the issues that have never been dealt with and have a relationship based on mutual understanding, equality, respect for ea. other and the decisions they make, and most of all love ea other as the men they are now and not the boys they were then.
love is a powerful word thrown around and many posts have slanted that love as one brother's love for his brother(dean) being stronger than the other's(sam) which imo is horse puckey.
let's attempt to try to see things as it's possible sam may see it.
dean sold his soul for sam and the belief is that it was out of love alone. selfish or selfless? well sam was in heaven and there's no reason to think he'd be anywhere else. in later eps ash told sam he'd been in heaven a few times. we have also got a glimpse of what heaven was like and the connections souls have to one another up there. so imo i think it's safe to say that sam may very well have ended up being with jess and/or his mom. but dean, as he stated in his speech to sam, couldn't let him down. how can he live with that? so i question dean's motives here? did he save sam out of love or responsibility that he felt he had towards his brother? personally, i'd say it's 50/50.
as a result of this save look what's happened. your opinion is that hell's gate would've opened and that may be so, but what about the breaking of the first seal?
so sam is back and believe me i am grateful to dean, but still it doesn't make dean's actions any less self serving. what becomes of sam's return? let's make an attempt to try and see things the way sam might? as a result of dean's actions, sam is now burdened with the same knowledge of dean's imment trip to hell and it's because of him. he didn't ask dean to do it. he told him he shouldn't have done it, but dean in essence placed the responsibility on sam to save him any way he can. because sam loves dean. so thus continues the cycle that started with mom, continued with dad and now dean. sam tried in most every episode in s3 to save dean and dean stopped him because if they weaseled out on the deal sam dies. point i'm trying to make there, which i think is kind of important, sam respects dean's wishes. he doesn't override dean's decision. in the end dean ends up dead, sam helpless to save him. life long traumatic event anyone? now sam has to live knowing dean is not only dead, but he's suffering in hell. and look at the events that followed. sam made the decisions he did, but would it have come to that if extreme measures had not been taken by dean in the first place.
sam's decision to drink db is constantly thrown back in his face. but how was it that it happened in the first place? dean is dead in hell. sam is unable to free him. we see him drinking and suicidal and full of such self loathing it's seeping out of every pore in his body. ironically and for her own selfish reasons, the only one who brought sam back from that was ruby, who swooped in and played on every broken emotion sam had. she gave him purpose, even if that purpose was revenge. so i can say that it was sam's love for his brother that led to his path of self destruction in the first place, much like dean's love for sam helped him reach that path.
yed told dean in ahbl2 that it was his self destructive nature and the need to do anything for his family that he counted on. that right there is one of the key issues that the writers introduced in dean and have never dealt with. it plays a part in dean's decisions to use extreme measures and mess with the natural order in the first place, and not just with sam.
sam's pov: dean's selfish act of resurrection(he told dean that he remembered what dad's deal did to his father and now he's doing it to him. dean's response he was ok with that, after all he'd done for his family, in his mind he was allowed to inflict pain and guilt on sam) that's a messed up way to show someone you love them. dean's one act was the match that lit the fuse. dean ends up in hell and thus breaks the first seal allowing for the angels who were conning dean and sam, to let the rest of the seals start breaking. the final seal being the death of lilith which both boys believed would be what would stop the seals and avert the apocalypse. both boys were played there.
it leads up to sam stopping lucifer the only way they could, jumping into the pit. he didn't want to, but he said, there was no choice.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 09:30
so sam is now suffering all eternity in the cage instead of being where he was originally, heaven. dean ends up living in his own hell with the knowledge of knowing where his brother is and not being able to get him out. lucky for us cas dons the hero cape and rescues sam..sort of. now we have a souless sam. a souless sam who was responsible for the deaths of innocent people. sam, gets his memory back when his soul is returned and is left with the guilt of living with all that souless sam has done. again a trauma that sam has to yet live with. an example of sam having no control of his actions yet bearing the consequences for them. i tend to lean towards this experience changing sam. as a bonus from gaining back his memory, he looses his sanity, loses bobby twice, looses dean and reaches his emotional end, breaking from the events and imploding and running away from the very life that has killed his entire family. that killed his touchstone, killed his brother. so here sam, after experiencing everything that he has experienced finally tells himself " that's enough", no more. and who can blame him? although dean was by his side during all of this, because i did not forget that for a single moment, nor did i forget the the love and devotion between them in all of this, i'm simply looking at the bigger picture of where i believe sam is coming from. as much as dean was with sam, he didn't experience what sam did so dean doesn't really understand where sam is coming from. so imo, dean doesn't understand sam in much the way that you feel sam doesn't truly understand dean.
this is where jc and co. put in motion the beginning of the end of all that. if any season displayed the brother's misperception of ea. other in all it's glory, it was s8. it was hard to watch. but by the end of the second half and by the time we get to sacrifice, some of that misperception is cleared up. but then again some of it wasn't . sam's biggest issue trust. for sam, trust is synonymous with faith. sam's initial speech in that church began with his belief that dean trusted an angel and a vamp over him. for sam, all the mistakes he has made, as dean has pointed out so very often, were sins dean felt were against him. sam's willingness to let the trials kill him are rooted in his deep desire not to let his brother down, which i think goes back to s3 when sam couldn't save his brother from hell. again...there's that cycle. so what dean said in the church, for sam, i believe the way he perceived it, was that dean was telling sam that he does have complete trust in him, thus faith in sam and not only does noone come before him, but he sees him as his equal. as a man dean can trust. i think dean saw it as sam's unwavering faith in him, which is true. i think his misperception lies in the fact that he still believes he can make decisions for sam. based on that. that just isn't the case.
so dean's decison to override what would've been sam's final choice took from sam not only his right to decide, but it made sam question what he perceived to be what dean meant in that church. he tricked him, he lied to him. but most off given sam's history and admitting that sam would never allow it, dean still did what he did. as a result of his actions, sam is again left with the guilt of yet another death by his hands. not just anyone, kevin, who was basically just a kid. sam's going to just be able to brush that off? he couldn't brush off the countless other people who died at the hands of souless sam? he couldn't wash off the death of jess or ellen or jo. if it's so easy to understand the guilt that dean lives with in regards to those deaths, why is so hard to understand that sam would live with the same guilt?
so we have a hurt sam. an angry sam. a disillusioned sam. a sam who is so damaged right now that he is questioning dean's words at the church. he doesn't know if dean just said what he said because he meant it or because he couldn't face life alone. this isn't dean's basic lies, this is a major breach of trust. that unwavering trust that sam had in his brother....it's now wavering. but not the love, not the love.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 09:30
so sam is now suffering all eternity in the cage instead of being where he was originally, heaven. dean ends up living in his own hell with the knowledge of knowing where his brother is and not being able to get him out. lucky for us cas dons the hero cape and rescues sam..sort of. now we have a souless sam. a souless sam who was responsible for the deaths of innocent people. sam, gets his memory back when his soul is returned and is left with the guilt of living with all that souless sam has done. again a trauma that sam has to yet live with. an example of sam having no control of his actions yet bearing the consequences for them. i tend to lean towards this experience changing sam. as a bonus from gaining back his memory, he looses his sanity, loses bobby twice, looses dean and reaches his emotional end, breaking from the events and imploding and running away from the very life that has killed his entire family. that killed his touchstone, killed his brother. so here sam, after experiencing everything that he has experienced finally tells himself " that's enough", no more. and who can blame him? although dean was by his side during all of this, because i did not forget that for a single moment, nor did i forget the the love and devotion between them in all of this, i'm simply looking at the bigger picture of where i believe sam is coming from. as much as dean was with sam, he didn't experience what sam did so dean doesn't really understand where sam is coming from. so imo, dean doesn't understand sam in much the way that you feel sam doesn't truly understand dean.
this is where jc and co. put in motion the beginning of the end of all that. if any season displayed the brother's misperception of ea. other in all it's glory, it was s8. it was hard to watch. but by the end of the second half and by the time we get to sacrifice, some of that misperception is cleared up. but then again some of it wasn't . sam's biggest issue trust. for sam, trust is synonymous with faith. sam's initial speech in that church began with his belief that dean trusted an angel and a vamp over him. for sam, all the mistakes he has made, as dean has pointed out so very often, were sins dean felt were against him. sam's willingness to let the trials kill him are rooted in his deep desire not to let his brother down, which i think goes back to s3 when sam couldn't save his brother from hell. again...there's that cycle. so what dean said in the church, for sam, i believe the way he perceived it, was that dean was telling sam that he does have complete trust in him, thus faith in sam and not only does noone come before him, but he sees him as his equal. as a man dean can trust. i think dean saw it as sam's unwavering faith in him, which is true. i think his misperception lies in the fact that he still believes he can make decisions for sam. based on that. that just isn't the case.
so dean's decison to override what would've been sam's final choice took from sam not only his right to decide, but it made sam question what he perceived to be what dean meant in that church. he tricked him, he lied to him. but most off given sam's history and admitting that sam would never allow it, dean still did what he did. as a result of his actions, sam is again left with the guilt of yet another death by his hands. not just anyone, kevin, who was basically just a kid. sam's going to just be able to brush that off? he couldn't brush off the countless other people who died at the hands of souless sam? he couldn't wash off the death of jess or ellen or jo. if it's so easy to understand the guilt that dean lives with in regards to those deaths, why is so hard to understand that sam would live with the same guilt?
so we have a hurt sam. an angry sam. a disillusioned sam. a sam who is so damaged right now that he is questioning dean's words at the church. he doesn't know if dean just said what he said because he meant it or because he couldn't face life alone. this isn't dean's basic lies, this is a major breach of trust. that unwavering trust that sam had in his brother....it's now wavering. but not the love, not the love.
Lelani
# Lelani 2014-02-08 10:07
Gerry, I commend you for having the courage to post such an honest review. It would have been a lot easier for you to jump on the "Dean deserved it" bandwagon or rave about how Dean being emotionally filleted was somehow going to end up being this great growth experience for him (like someone with horrible self esteem issues being cut down to size works like that.) It's much, much harder to take the position you did and I think you deserve kudos for that.

I have to admit, I'm also very confused by Carver's vision for the brothers' relationship. It seems to jump from one extreme to the next without giving us a reference point to come back to. Kripke was pretty clear during his tenure. Despite making mistakes, the brothers' bond was unbreakable and enough to save the world. Now? I have no clue. Is it toxic? Is Dean too codependent? Is Sam not invested enough? Is it fine but just needs a little tweaking? Who knows.

The more I think about it, though, the more I believe we're not supposed to take everything Sam said as gospel truth. He already set himself up as an unreliable narrator instead of the author's mouthpiece when he rejected Dean as his brother. Even if Carver wants to change the dynamics of the relationship, he's not going to take it that far. Then this week, Jared tweeted that Sam could be a jerk. Which, to me, then throws a lot of what Sam said under suspicion.

The brothers do need to hash out their issues and Sam has legit reason to be angry. But in my opinion, just because Sam spoke calmly didn't mean he wasn't also lashing out. The brothers have a different way with how they fight with each other- Dean is more inclined to express his anger physically by punching or throwing things around while Sam instead uses words as weapons. Which is what I'm hoping is the case here. Because, otherwise, if the show does end up saying that there's nothing wrong with Sam thinking Dean is selfish, needy, willing to sacrifice others as long as he doesn't have to suffer himself, and does more harm than good....then, yeah, I can't support that type of relationship either and the best thing for the brothers might be to go their separate ways.

Again, thanks for the thought provoking article, Gerry.

(Alice, sorry if my comment appears multiple times. I'm having trouble getting it to post.)
Lelani
# Lelani 2014-02-08 10:07
Gerry, I commend you for having the courage to post such an honest review. It would have been a lot easier for you to jump on the "Dean deserved it" bandwagon or rave about how Dean being emotionally filleted was somehow going to end up being this great growth experience for him (like someone with horrible self esteem issues being cut down to size works like that.) It's much, much harder to take the position you did and I think you deserve kudos for that.

I have to admit, I'm also very confused by Carver's vision for the brothers' relationship. It seems to jump from one extreme to the next without giving us a reference point to come back to. Kripke was pretty clear during his tenure. Despite making mistakes, the brothers' bond was unbreakable and enough to save the world. Now? I have no clue. Is it toxic? Is Dean too codependent? Is Sam not invested enough? Is it fine but just needs a little tweaking? Who knows.

The more I think about it, though, the more I believe we're not supposed to take everything Sam said as gospel truth. He already set himself up as an unreliable narrator instead of the author's mouthpiece when he rejected Dean as his brother. Even if Carver wants to change the dynamics of the relationship, he's not going to take it that far. Then this week, Jared tweeted that Sam could be a jerk. Which, to me, then throws a lot of what Sam said under suspicion.

The brothers do need to hash out their issues and Sam has legit reason to be angry. But in my opinion, just because Sam spoke calmly didn't mean he wasn't also lashing out. The brothers have a different way with how they fight with each other- Dean is more inclined to express his anger physically by punching or throwing things around while Sam instead uses words as weapons. Which is what I'm hoping is the case here. Because, otherwise, if the show does end up saying that there's nothing wrong with Sam thinking Dean is selfish, needy, willing to sacrifice others as long as he doesn't have to suffer himself, and does more harm than good....then, yeah, I can't support that type of relationship either and the best thing for the brothers might be to go their separate ways.

Again, thanks for the thought provoking article, Gerry.

(Alice, sorry if my comment appears multiple times. I'm having trouble getting it to post.)
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 10:15
i disagree that sam is negating dean's love throughout the entire run of the show. i think sam's love for his brother is most obvious.
as hurt & disillusioned as sam is, feeling right now,he hasn't left dean's side. he's doing something that no show runner has ever done. he's dealing with the issues that were brought up so long ago. carver began his run during the 3rd season. he has written the most brotherly eps, but he's also written eps that have dealt with the brother's problems. kripke ended his run with a glorious sacrifice and an amazing display of love by both brothers, but never had anything ever been resolved between sam and dean. the hidden underlying issues were never truly explored and dealt with. carver left, kripke left and sera took over and still continued the cycle that eric started. the brothers emotionally broken disconnected there were alot of complaints about that. still the issues that ea. boy has regarding the other still never touched upon or resolved
carver returns and sees where the boys are at emotionally and they are exactly where he left them. 8 seasons in and the boys haven't dealt with their issues. they are stagnant. they are the boys he left instead of the men they should be. their relationship stuck like a car in the mud. so here comes carver and says now things change. it's
time to deal with all the issues brought up 5 years ago and lay them to rest. it's not going to be pretty and realistically it's aint happening quickly. it's got to be real. it's got to feel real. it's got to be something big too. not something, given the brother's history that can just be swept under the rug. if it's going to be authentic then it's going to have to start with one of the brother's changing first. given both character's personalities and history, it makes sense that sam would be that brother.. so here we are. dean once again playing the role of chuck in which he makes the decision regarding death. once again, this decison is regarding sam's death. yes i'm glad he did it. but yes it was wrong on so many levels. dean goes to extreme supernatural measures once again, not only making choices for sam, but tricking him, lying to him, and ultimately resulting in the death of kevin by sam's hand. the thing is, sam is not ok with this. given his history it's understandable why. sam confronts his brother by telling him that they in essence have to work on their brother relationship, that it's broken right now. he was going to go on but stopped. he did appear so very tired. but i think it was more.
he went in that car, he wasn't giving up. personally, i think maybe sam knew just the right words to say to get dean to push him into continuing this conversation they so desperately need to have and that i feel sam is so trying to initiate. not completing his thoughts to dean, i feel was sam's way of pushing the issue. i think it worked too.
the purge showed no signs of sam's lack of love for dean or the reverse. but at the end of the eppy, the conversation sam wants to have with dean continued. dean tells sam the why and that he'd do it all over again. that was all sam needed to hear to finally purge his feelings to dean ....sam had just heard his brother tell him that given all that has gone wrong all the pain that he brought on for both of them, the loss of kevin, sam's anger and hurt and dean would do it again. kevin is expendable then? dean's so used to feeling guilty he's numb to it now? is dean not whole unless he's feeling guilty, is it a part of his makeup? the alarm in sam's head that went off as dean said this.
you think sam's question to dean about his motivations are cruel? i think the questions is crucial.
i think it's absolutely necessary for dean to really think about if he's ever going to stop the vicious cycle he's in. the cycle that inevitably leads to pain and loss for both of them.i think dean needs to ask himself if the extreme measures he's willing to take, which he himself confessed to sam in devil's trap, scared him, does he do it out of love or fear? in no way does this question negate the love they have for ea. other as being real. that family comes first for both of them. that choosing ea. other will always be both of their ultimate choices. this question negates none of that. what it does do is open dean's eyes to his true motivations. to face his deep rooted issues that he's never dealt with before. no matter what dean's answer is to sam's question, it's the question itself that will help dean finally come to deal with whatever it is causes him to want to make such harmful decisions in the first place. sam telling dean that given the same duplicate circumstances he would not follow dean's actions, doesn't negate their history together or the love he feels for his brother. he'd die for him in a heartbeat. the way sam feels, he would never takes dean's choice away from him no matter how much it hurts.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 10:15
i disagree that sam is negating dean's love throughout the entire run of the show. i think sam's love for his brother is most obvious.
as hurt & disillusioned as sam is, feeling right now,he hasn't left dean's side. he's doing something that no show runner has ever done. he's dealing with the issues that were brought up so long ago. carver began his run during the 3rd season. he has written the most brotherly eps, but he's also written eps that have dealt with the brother's problems. kripke ended his run with a glorious sacrifice and an amazing display of love by both brothers, but never had anything ever been resolved between sam and dean. the hidden underlying issues were never truly explored and dealt with. carver left, kripke left and sera took over and still continued the cycle that eric started. the brothers emotionally broken disconnected there were alot of complaints about that. still the issues that ea. boy has regarding the other still never touched upon or resolved
carver returns and sees where the boys are at emotionally and they are exactly where he left them. 8 seasons in and the boys haven't dealt with their issues. they are stagnant. they are the boys he left instead of the men they should be. their relationship stuck like a car in the mud. so here comes carver and says now things change. it's
time to deal with all the issues brought up 5 years ago and lay them to rest. it's not going to be pretty and realistically it's aint happening quickly. it's got to be real. it's got to feel real. it's got to be something big too. not something, given the brother's history that can just be swept under the rug. if it's going to be authentic then it's going to have to start with one of the brother's changing first. given both character's personalities and history, it makes sense that sam would be that brother.. so here we are. dean once again playing the role of chuck in which he makes the decision regarding death. once again, this decison is regarding sam's death. yes i'm glad he did it. but yes it was wrong on so many levels. dean goes to extreme supernatural measures once again, not only making choices for sam, but tricking him, lying to him, and ultimately resulting in the death of kevin by sam's hand. the thing is, sam is not ok with this. given his history it's understandable why. sam confronts his brother by telling him that they in essence have to work on their brother relationship, that it's broken right now. he was going to go on but stopped. he did appear so very tired. but i think it was more.
he went in that car, he wasn't giving up. personally, i think maybe sam knew just the right words to say to get dean to push him into continuing this conversation they so desperately need to have and that i feel sam is so trying to initiate. not completing his thoughts to dean, i feel was sam's way of pushing the issue. i think it worked too.
the purge showed no signs of sam's lack of love for dean or the reverse. but at the end of the eppy, the conversation sam wants to have with dean continued. dean tells sam the why and that he'd do it all over again. that was all sam needed to hear to finally purge his feelings to dean ....sam had just heard his brother tell him that given all that has gone wrong all the pain that he brought on for both of them, the loss of kevin, sam's anger and hurt and dean would do it again. kevin is expendable then? dean's so used to feeling guilty he's numb to it now? is dean not whole unless he's feeling guilty, is it a part of his makeup? the alarm in sam's head that went off as dean said this.
you think sam's question to dean about his motivations are cruel? i think the questions is crucial.
i think it's absolutely necessary for dean to really think about if he's ever going to stop the vicious cycle he's in. the cycle that inevitably leads to pain and loss for both of them.i think dean needs to ask himself if the extreme measures he's willing to take, which he himself confessed to sam in devil's trap, scared him, does he do it out of love or fear? in no way does this question negate the love they have for ea. other as being real. that family comes first for both of them. that choosing ea. other will always be both of their ultimate choices. this question negates none of that. what it does do is open dean's eyes to his true motivations. to face his deep rooted issues that he's never dealt with before. no matter what dean's answer is to sam's question, it's the question itself that will help dean finally come to deal with whatever it is causes him to want to make such harmful decisions in the first place. sam telling dean that given the same duplicate circumstances he would not follow dean's actions, doesn't negate their history together or the love he feels for his brother. he'd die for him in a heartbeat. the way sam feels, he would never takes dean's choice away from him no matter how much it hurts.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 10:49
the way sam sees things, he loves his brother enough to let him go if that indeed was dean's final wish.fans have decided and i don't believe show has yet indicated that in any way, that dean now believes his brother doesn't love him as much. i personally didnt see show end it like that. dean seemed more pensive about what sam said. as if he was starting to think about it. further episodes will hopefully give us more info on that.
carver and co. are continuing with the journey they have started this boys on. they are finally dealing with their past issues that were brought up years ago and consistently swept under the rug. well it's time for a new rug. these last two seasons have realistically dealt with bringing the issues to surface and finally facing up to them he couldn't do it instantly. it made more sense to do it as he's done. one event leading to another til finally someone say's it's time to stop this merry go round. its time for another ride. carver understandably chose sam's character to change and grow first given the events he went through that dean hasnt and can never truly understand. sam has learned from past mistakes. he sees things from a different perspective. not a wrong one. he wants/needs things to change between him and dean because he's reached the point where he needs dean to understand that there are times when his love blinds him to the detriment of both sam and other people.
what carver is having sam do is make dean face the one person he can't really ever seem to face and deal with....himself . once dean understands how he views himself and shares that with sam, they can work from there to accept ea. other and grow. they can relate as the men they've become and as brothers instead of parent/child. and they can finally forgive themselves for whatever it is that they ea. feel unworthy. i think that's what carver is doing. i only wish that more people would understand where both brothers are coming what carver is trying to accomplish here.

my apologies for not handling the way i should have the proper response to this article. i should have just voiced my opinion as i did above rather than voicing my initial reaction which i should have just simmered down, waited and put more appropriate thoughts together. that on my part was bad form.

thanks percy. sorry for the length.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 10:49
the way sam sees things, he loves his brother enough to let him go if that indeed was dean's final wish.fans have decided and i don't believe show has yet indicated that in any way, that dean now believes his brother doesn't love him as much. i personally didnt see show end it like that. dean seemed more pensive about what sam said. as if he was starting to think about it. further episodes will hopefully give us more info on that.
carver and co. are continuing with the journey they have started this boys on. they are finally dealing with their past issues that were brought up years ago and consistently swept under the rug. well it's time for a new rug. these last two seasons have realistically dealt with bringing the issues to surface and finally facing up to them he couldn't do it instantly. it made more sense to do it as he's done. one event leading to another til finally someone say's it's time to stop this merry go round. its time for another ride. carver understandably chose sam's character to change and grow first given the events he went through that dean hasnt and can never truly understand. sam has learned from past mistakes. he sees things from a different perspective. not a wrong one. he wants/needs things to change between him and dean because he's reached the point where he needs dean to understand that there are times when his love blinds him to the detriment of both sam and other people.
what carver is having sam do is make dean face the one person he can't really ever seem to face and deal with....himself . once dean understands how he views himself and shares that with sam, they can work from there to accept ea. other and grow. they can relate as the men they've become and as brothers instead of parent/child. and they can finally forgive themselves for whatever it is that they ea. feel unworthy. i think that's what carver is doing. i only wish that more people would understand where both brothers are coming what carver is trying to accomplish here.

my apologies for not handling the way i should have the proper response to this article. i should have just voiced my opinion as i did above rather than voicing my initial reaction which i should have just simmered down, waited and put more appropriate thoughts together. that on my part was bad form.

thanks percy. sorry for the length.
Beanie
# Beanie 2014-02-08 10:58
I left this site with SweetOnDean and the fallout after an article written by (I believe Alice) about Jensen but it was suggested I come read Gerry's articles/reviews.......

I no longer read the comments and rarely post......but Welcome Gerry!! I will come back to read any of your reviews.

Oh, and while I was here, I went and read Nate's review of Sharp Teeth!!

Hee-hee....loved it!
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-08 11:08
Quoting Lelani:
Gerry, I commend you for having the courage to post such an honest review. It would have been a lot easier for you to jump on the "Dean deserved it" bandwagon or rave about how Dean being emotionally filleted was somehow going to end up being this great growth experience for him (like someone with horrible self esteem issues being cut down to size works like that.) It's much, much harder to take the position you did and I think you deserve kudos for that.

I have to admit, I'm also very confused by Carver's vision for the brothers' relationship. It seems to jump from one extreme to the next without giving us a reference point to come back to. Kripke was pretty clear during his tenure. Despite making mistakes, the brothers' bond was unbreakable and enough to save the world. Now? I have no clue. Is it toxic? Is Dean too codependent? Is Sam not invested enough? Is it fine but just needs a little tweaking? Who knows.

The more I think about it, though, the more I believe we're not supposed to take everything Sam said as gospel truth. He already set himself up as an unreliable narrator instead of the author's mouthpiece when he rejected Dean as his brother. Even if Carver wants to change the dynamics of the relationship, he's not going to take it that far. Then this week, Jared tweeted that Sam could be a jerk. Which, to me, then throws a lot of what Sam said under suspicion.

The brothers do need to hash out their issues and Sam has legit reason to be angry. But in my opinion, just because Sam spoke calmly didn't mean he wasn't also lashing out. The brothers have a different way with how they fight with each other- Dean is more inclined to express his anger physically by punching or throwing things around while Sam instead uses words as weapons. Which is what I'm hoping is the case here. Because, otherwise, if the show does end up saying that there's nothing wrong with Sam thinking Dean is selfish, needy, willing to sacrifice others as long as he doesn't have to suffer himself, and does more harm than good....then, yeah, I can't support that type of relationship either and the best thing for the brothers might be to go their separate ways.

Again, thanks for the thought provoking article, Gerry.

(Alice, sorry if my comment appears multiple times. I'm having trouble getting it to post.)

I also commend you for this article, Gerry. It is spot-on for this Dean fan. I have always had a problem with those who feel that we "never" get Sam's POV because IMO, when it comes to the big epic brother talks that were presumably meant to "mend" things between them(ie., those in Fallen Idols, PONR, the ep. before Swan Song, Torn and Frayed, and Sacrifice), it has always predominantly been Sam's POV that we've gotten and that has been upheld through Dean's acceptance and apologizing as the "right" way of seeing things-meaning this was the writers' intent. If they just have Dean yet again accept everything Sam said in this scene and simply apologize to Sam, they will have made the same mistakes that they made in those previous episodes that I mentioned. No Dean POV other than the token and straw man arguments that they always give him. Sam has to own his choice and part in stopping the trials. He has to admit that he wanted to live when he agreed to the possession, even if he didn't agree with Dean's measures. He has to take back these now voiced thoughts of his that Dean has done more harm than good and that Dean's sacrifices have only hurt others, and not Dean, himself. The on-line communityis most up in arms over that one, IMO. Jared tweeting that Sam "can be a jerk." is strangely hopeful in that maybe this time, the writers will givwe us a more balanced resolution where BOTH brothers realize that they've made mistakes that have contributed to where they are presently at in the relationship. We'll see, I guess. I've been waiting for this since S4. Hope springs eternal. Thanks again for a very perceptive and well-written piece.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-08 11:08
Quote:
Gerry, I commend you for having the courage to post such an honest review. It would have been a lot easier for you to jump on the "Dean deserved it" bandwagon or rave about how Dean being emotionally filleted was somehow going to end up being this great growth experience for him (like someone with horrible self esteem issues being cut down to size works like that.) It's much, much harder to take the position you did and I think you deserve kudos for that.

I have to admit, I'm also very confused by Carver's vision for the brothers' relationship. It seems to jump from one extreme to the next without giving us a reference point to come back to. Kripke was pretty clear during his tenure. Despite making mistakes, the brothers' bond was unbreakable and enough to save the world. Now? I have no clue. Is it toxic? Is Dean too codependent? Is Sam not invested enough? Is it fine but just needs a little tweaking? Who knows.

The more I think about it, though, the more I believe we're not supposed to take everything Sam said as gospel truth. He already set himself up as an unreliable narrator instead of the author's mouthpiece when he rejected Dean as his brother. Even if Carver wants to change the dynamics of the relationship, he's not going to take it that far. Then this week, Jared tweeted that Sam could be a jerk. Which, to me, then throws a lot of what Sam said under suspicion.

The brothers do need to hash out their issues and Sam has legit reason to be angry. But in my opinion, just because Sam spoke calmly didn't mean he wasn't also lashing out. The brothers have a different way with how they fight with each other- Dean is more inclined to express his anger physically by punching or throwing things around while Sam instead uses words as weapons. Which is what I'm hoping is the case here. Because, otherwise, if the show does end up saying that there's nothing wrong with Sam thinking Dean is selfish, needy, willing to sacrifice others as long as he doesn't have to suffer himself, and does more harm than good....then, yeah, I can't support that type of relationship either and the best thing for the brothers might be to go their separate ways.

Again, thanks for the thought provoking article, Gerry.

(Alice, sorry if my comment appears multiple times. I'm having trouble getting it to post.)
I also commend you for this article, Gerry. It is spot-on for this Dean fan. I have always had a problem with those who feel that we "never" get Sam's POV because IMO, when it comes to the big epic brother talks that were presumably meant to "mend" things between them(ie., those in Fallen Idols, PONR, the ep. before Swan Song, Torn and Frayed, and Sacrifice), it has always predominantly been Sam's POV that we've gotten and that has been upheld through Dean's acceptance and apologizing as the "right" way of seeing things-meaning this was the writers' intent. If they just have Dean yet again accept everything Sam said in this scene and simply apologize to Sam, they will have made the same mistakes that they made in those previous episodes that I mentioned. No Dean POV other than the token and straw man arguments that they always give him. Sam has to own his choice and part in stopping the trials. He has to admit that he wanted to live when he agreed to the possession, even if he didn't agree with Dean's measures. He has to take back these now voiced thoughts of his that Dean has done more harm than good and that Dean's sacrifices have only hurt others, and not Dean, himself. The on-line communityis most up in arms over that one, IMO. Jared tweeting that Sam "can be a jerk." is strangely hopeful in that maybe this time, the writers will givwe us a more balanced resolution where BOTH brothers realize that they've made mistakes that have contributed to where they are presently at in the relationship. We'll see, I guess. I've been waiting for this since S4. Hope springs eternal. Thanks again for a very perceptive and well-written piece.
Tillypuitan
# Tillypuitan 2014-02-08 12:07
Great review! I love how objective you are in this article instead of being biased toward Sam or Dean. Carver is screwing up in this, and the writers are so clumsy in their handling of these "talks" between the brothers. In real life, Sam's words would be nearly unforgivable no matter what he is trying to say. Dean does not deserve this from him, just as Sam would not deserve words like these said to him by Dean. It's all fine and great to create conflict between the brothers, but this particular one is so contrived and hurtful that it is hard to see how they can possibly rebuild the brotherly bond from this low point in any believable way at all.
Tillypuitan
# Tillypuitan 2014-02-08 12:07
Great review! I love how objective you are in this article instead of being biased toward Sam or Dean. Carver is screwing up in this, and the writers are so clumsy in their handling of these "talks" between the brothers. In real life, Sam's words would be nearly unforgivable no matter what he is trying to say. Dean does not deserve this from him, just as Sam would not deserve words like these said to him by Dean. It's all fine and great to create conflict between the brothers, but this particular one is so contrived and hurtful that it is hard to see how they can possibly rebuild the brotherly bond from this low point in any believable way at all.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 12:20
I am sorry Gerry as this is the first review of yours that i could not read in one go.But we cannot help what our reactions to the show will be.Your review is appreciated as I like your reviews normally and I got to know how you think .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-08 12:20
I am sorry Gerry as this is the first review of yours that i could not read in one go.But we cannot help what our reactions to the show will be.Your review is appreciated as I like your reviews normally and I got to know how you think .
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-08 12:43
Quoting Beanie:
I left this site with SweetOnDean and the fallout after an article written by (I believe Alice) about Jensen but it was suggested I come read Gerry's articles/reviews.......

I no longer read the comments and rarely post......but Welcome Gerry!! I will come back to read any of your reviews.

Oh, and while I was here, I went and read Nate's review of Sharp Teeth!!

Hee-hee....loved it!


I want to welcome you, too, Gerry and hope that the backlash from this article does not drive you away. After my most recent scolding; I, too, am leaving this site, but I will continue to read every one of your articles. Even though I won't comment on them, please know that I have always found, and without doubt will continue to find, them to be of excellent analysis. They have helped me understand aspects of episodes that I had not sussed out. You are very talented.
Ginger
# Ginger 2014-02-08 12:43
Quote:
I left this site with SweetOnDean and the fallout after an article written by (I believe Alice) about Jensen but it was suggested I come read Gerry's articles/reviews.......

I no longer read the comments and rarely post......but Welcome Gerry!! I will come back to read any of your reviews.

Oh, and while I was here, I went and read Nate's review of Sharp Teeth!!

Hee-hee....loved it!
I want to welcome you, too, Gerry and hope that the backlash from this article does not drive you away. After my most recent scolding; I, too, am leaving this site, but I will continue to read every one of your articles. Even though I won't comment on them, please know that I have always found, and without doubt will continue to find, them to be of excellent analysis. They have helped me understand aspects of episodes that I had not sussed out. You are very talented.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 12:52
actually i've never had a problem with understanding what dean is feeling. he pretty much doesn't hold anything back. ironically all the eps listed above as examples of sam's pov, have occurred as a result of harsh words or actions that came from dean. dean's angry with sam. he's tells him. sam 's a monster. dean tells him. sam chooses a demon over dean and therefore trust is lost, dean tells him. dean tells sam in ponr that he has no faith in him. dean isn't one to hold his anger or disappointment in sam back. so sorry but i do have to disagree with the idea that dean has no pov. he's got something to say, he says it. he feels a certain way, he expresses it. i never once had to guess what was going on with dean. never that i can think of. sam on the other hand, i did have to infer as to what might be going on with him on a number of occasions. sam's character is different from dean's. he doesn't open up half as much, and when he has, it's always been when he was scared(hoth, pt) frustrated or broken. i can't tell you how frustrating s8 was in regards to sam's character for me. dean was angry and he showed it, not only verbally but through his actions(lying, text). and sam just took it. he didn't defend himself. he didn't speak up. i mean in sc he had an emotional outburst but only because of dean's cruel words. in sacrifice the opened up because he was emotionally broken and tired. he simply couldn't do it anymore and we finally got to hear his pov. but look what it took to get it.
no, i have to say that when it comes to pov, dean wins in that dept. hands down.

but i will concede this. dean's true issues. what truly motivates him into the extreme measures he takes when it comes to his family, that's a mystery.

again, as i've stated in my extremely long post above, i think i see where carver is bringing the boys. i honestly believe that his goal is to change the dynamic of these two brothers which isn't a bad thing. he seems to me to be trying to explore, finally, the root of both sam and dean's underlying issues which have ended up in the end hurting ea. other or innocents. carver, the way i see it. is finally exposing these old tiresome issues that have never been fully explored, dealing with them, and finally laying them to rest. the end result will be a brother bond that is strong. but with that a friendship as well. i have no doubt that carver's goal is to have these brothers finally understand where the other is coming from and then accept that about ea. other. with this understanding will come a new respect and a trust. it's a process and not an easy one. i think it's unfair to accuse the show runner and his writers of destroying the brothers when the story is still ongoing. i get you don't like the road carver took in getting where i believe he is headed, negate the fact that carver knows exactly what he's doing whether the fandom thinks so or not. i get aggravated too, but no so much for what carver is doing with the boys as the ugliness it's bringing out in this fandom...but alas i have faith in his vision and i trust that all will be better than it's been before.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 12:52
actually i've never had a problem with understanding what dean is feeling. he pretty much doesn't hold anything back. ironically all the eps listed above as examples of sam's pov, have occurred as a result of harsh words or actions that came from dean. dean's angry with sam. he's tells him. sam 's a monster. dean tells him. sam chooses a demon over dean and therefore trust is lost, dean tells him. dean tells sam in ponr that he has no faith in him. dean isn't one to hold his anger or disappointment in sam back. so sorry but i do have to disagree with the idea that dean has no pov. he's got something to say, he says it. he feels a certain way, he expresses it. i never once had to guess what was going on with dean. never that i can think of. sam on the other hand, i did have to infer as to what might be going on with him on a number of occasions. sam's character is different from dean's. he doesn't open up half as much, and when he has, it's always been when he was scared(hoth, pt) frustrated or broken. i can't tell you how frustrating s8 was in regards to sam's character for me. dean was angry and he showed it, not only verbally but through his actions(lying, text). and sam just took it. he didn't defend himself. he didn't speak up. i mean in sc he had an emotional outburst but only because of dean's cruel words. in sacrifice the opened up because he was emotionally broken and tired. he simply couldn't do it anymore and we finally got to hear his pov. but look what it took to get it.
no, i have to say that when it comes to pov, dean wins in that dept. hands down.

but i will concede this. dean's true issues. what truly motivates him into the extreme measures he takes when it comes to his family, that's a mystery.

again, as i've stated in my extremely long post above, i think i see where carver is bringing the boys. i honestly believe that his goal is to change the dynamic of these two brothers which isn't a bad thing. he seems to me to be trying to explore, finally, the root of both sam and dean's underlying issues which have ended up in the end hurting ea. other or innocents. carver, the way i see it. is finally exposing these old tiresome issues that have never been fully explored, dealing with them, and finally laying them to rest. the end result will be a brother bond that is strong. but with that a friendship as well. i have no doubt that carver's goal is to have these brothers finally understand where the other is coming from and then accept that about ea. other. with this understanding will come a new respect and a trust. it's a process and not an easy one. i think it's unfair to accuse the show runner and his writers of destroying the brothers when the story is still ongoing. i get you don't like the road carver took in getting where i believe he is headed, negate the fact that carver knows exactly what he's doing whether the fandom thinks so or not. i get aggravated too, but no so much for what carver is doing with the boys as the ugliness it's bringing out in this fandom...but alas i have faith in his vision and i trust that all will be better than it's been before.
Robin
# Robin 2014-02-08 13:33
I agree with almost everything in this review.
Robin
# Robin 2014-02-08 13:33
I agree with almost everything in this review.
Scarlett
# Scarlett 2014-02-08 14:00
This was excellent! Thank you so, SO much for this review.

I've been a bit dismayed as so many saying that his was an "brutally honest" speech by Sam in reviews, etc. It literally pains me. I just can't see it that way for every reason you outlined about. This, to me, is Sam lashing out. He has a right to be angry at the possession stuff, obviously, but throwing all the blame onto Dean for the gates of hell stuff, stripping him emotionally down to nothing, and the accusations Sam made were both cruel and unfair. They only serve to reinforce every bad thing Dean thinks about himself. How does Sam think this will help Dean in his current mental state? At all?

This speech combined w/ the last one in Sharp Teeth, the way it was phrased in general terms, made Dean out to not only be the bad guy in the instance of the Gadreel possession... but in the entire series. Everything is wrong because they're family? That being the core of everything Dean stands for, the thing that stopped the apocolypse and saved so many lives, those words only serve to say "All the ideals you hold and things you've done Dean have done more bad then good."

I just was left in shock at this. This whole show is built on the idea of family and going the extra mile for one another. It's what saved the world in the apocalypse. Dean's sacrifices have hurt him greatly and to say otherwise is just plain a lie. Saving the world did more good then harm, and now I get the feeling Sam does not feel like Dean had an important role in that moment in Swan Song... which couldn't be further from the truth.

I am also in agreement that Dean & Sam should have asked way more questions before they tried to close the gates of hell and that Sam has done nothing but send mixed signals to Dean since the beginning of season 8. Not only that, but Sam *had the choice* to close the gates of hell and *he chose not too*. Why are they forgetting this? Dean only appealed to Sam to stop, but if Sam really, truly wanted to die to close the gates nothing was stopping him. Shifting the blame to Dean now is not only unfair, but it's ignoring the fact that Sam ultimately held the power in that situation... as he did in 9x01 when he chose NOT to go with Death.

So, I truly hope the show is not trying to say that Sam's POV here is right, but rather that it's his extreme view that is polar opposite to Dean's, and that each need to meet somewhere in the middle.

To say Sam is right in all the words he says now negates the entire premise of the show and disregards every sacrifice and good thing Dean has done. That would be a travesty.

I think they will rebuild to meet in the middle, and I PRAY Sam will FINALLY be called out on his own failings in the relationship... but they are walking a fine line here and it worries me greatly if they're trying to say Sam is mature here.

Who wants to watch two heroes who won't save each other when the going gets tough? Who shrug and except say, "well, guess I'll let you die then. Natural order." I thought it was pretty terrible when I watched it at beginning of season 8, so I have no desire to see that be the status quo myself. To me, it's not heroic at all.

Do limits need to be set? Yes. Does Dean desperately need to find some self-worth and identity again? Yes. Is this the right way to go about it? Um, no.

I am just hoping, HOPING the plan is to show that what they really need to do is understand each other, not say that Sam is right here, or that Dean needs to change the entire core of his being (one that I love).
Scarlett
# Scarlett 2014-02-08 14:00
This was excellent! Thank you so, SO much for this review.

I've been a bit dismayed as so many saying that his was an "brutally honest" speech by Sam in reviews, etc. It literally pains me. I just can't see it that way for every reason you outlined about. This, to me, is Sam lashing out. He has a right to be angry at the possession stuff, obviously, but throwing all the blame onto Dean for the gates of hell stuff, stripping him emotionally down to nothing, and the accusations Sam made were both cruel and unfair. They only serve to reinforce every bad thing Dean thinks about himself. How does Sam think this will help Dean in his current mental state? At all?

This speech combined w/ the last one in Sharp Teeth, the way it was phrased in general terms, made Dean out to not only be the bad guy in the instance of the Gadreel possession... but in the entire series. Everything is wrong because they're family? That being the core of everything Dean stands for, the thing that stopped the apocolypse and saved so many lives, those words only serve to say "All the ideals you hold and things you've done Dean have done more bad then good."

I just was left in shock at this. This whole show is built on the idea of family and going the extra mile for one another. It's what saved the world in the apocalypse. Dean's sacrifices have hurt him greatly and to say otherwise is just plain a lie. Saving the world did more good then harm, and now I get the feeling Sam does not feel like Dean had an important role in that moment in Swan Song... which couldn't be further from the truth.

I am also in agreement that Dean & Sam should have asked way more questions before they tried to close the gates of hell and that Sam has done nothing but send mixed signals to Dean since the beginning of season 8. Not only that, but Sam *had the choice* to close the gates of hell and *he chose not too*. Why are they forgetting this? Dean only appealed to Sam to stop, but if Sam really, truly wanted to die to close the gates nothing was stopping him. Shifting the blame to Dean now is not only unfair, but it's ignoring the fact that Sam ultimately held the power in that situation... as he did in 9x01 when he chose NOT to go with Death.

So, I truly hope the show is not trying to say that Sam's POV here is right, but rather that it's his extreme view that is polar opposite to Dean's, and that each need to meet somewhere in the middle.

To say Sam is right in all the words he says now negates the entire premise of the show and disregards every sacrifice and good thing Dean has done. That would be a travesty.

I think they will rebuild to meet in the middle, and I PRAY Sam will FINALLY be called out on his own failings in the relationship... but they are walking a fine line here and it worries me greatly if they're trying to say Sam is mature here.

Who wants to watch two heroes who won't save each other when the going gets tough? Who shrug and except say, "well, guess I'll let you die then. Natural order." I thought it was pretty terrible when I watched it at beginning of season 8, so I have no desire to see that be the status quo myself. To me, it's not heroic at all.

Do limits need to be set? Yes. Does Dean desperately need to find some self-worth and identity again? Yes. Is this the right way to go about it? Um, no.

I am just hoping, HOPING the plan is to show that what they really need to do is understand each other, not say that Sam is right here, or that Dean needs to change the entire core of his being (one that I love).
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-08 14:01
Quoting nappi815:
i think i see where carver is bringing the boys. i honestly believe that his goal is to change the dynamic of these two brothers which isn't a bad thing. he seems to me to be trying to explore, finally, the root of both sam and dean's underlying issues which have ended up in the end hurting ea. other or innocents.


I seriously hope you're right Nappi, cos I agree these issues need addressing. The boys had such a screwed-up childhood and they've had no respite to deal with their issues during their adulthood (you know, what with the Apocalypse and all).

As long as the writers are not creating these rifts for the sake of publicity and they have a plan which gives both Sam and Dean a fair chance to deal with their problems, then it's good. But otherwise the whole setup is seriously disturbing.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-08 14:01
Quote:
i think i see where carver is bringing the boys. i honestly believe that his goal is to change the dynamic of these two brothers which isn't a bad thing. he seems to me to be trying to explore, finally, the root of both sam and dean's underlying issues which have ended up in the end hurting ea. other or innocents.
I seriously hope you're right Nappi, cos I agree these issues need addressing. The boys had such a screwed-up childhood and they've had no respite to deal with their issues during their adulthood (you know, what with the Apocalypse and all).

As long as the writers are not creating these rifts for the sake of publicity and they have a plan which gives both Sam and Dean a fair chance to deal with their problems, then it's good. But otherwise the whole setup is seriously disturbing.
Cat
# Cat 2014-02-08 14:12
Quoting Lelani:
Gerry, I commend you for having the courage to post such an honest review. It would have been a lot easier for you to jump on the "Dean deserved it" bandwagon or rave about how Dean being emotionally filleted was somehow going to end up being this great growth experience for him (like someone with horrible self esteem issues being cut down to size works like that.) It's much, much harder to take the position you did and I think you deserve kudos for that. [...]

The more I think about it, though, the more I believe we're not supposed to take everything Sam said as gospel truth. He already set himself up as an unreliable narrator instead of the author's mouthpiece when he rejected Dean as his brother. Even if Carver wants to change the dynamics of the relationship, he's not going to take it that far. Then this week, Jared tweeted that Sam could be a jerk. Which, to me, then throws a lot of what Sam said under suspicion.

The brothers do need to hash out their issues and Sam has legit reason to be angry. But in my opinion, just because Sam spoke calmly didn't mean he wasn't also lashing out. The brothers have a different way with how they fight with each other- Dean is more inclined to express his anger physically by punching or throwing things around while Sam instead uses words as weapons. Which is what I'm hoping is the case here.

Thank you for your review, Gerry, and thank you Lelani for expressing my thoughts. Sam might have thought he was being honest, but I think he left out a few truths that stood in the way of being angry at Dean. As you said, Gerry, Dean had taken on responsibility for Sam at an early age, nurturing him and giving him guidance he couldn't have gotten elsewhere. As we saw in "Bad Boys", Sam knows this. I believe Sam tried to express his feelings about Dean's actions and get to the bottom of the issues in their relationship, but ended up lashing out. Sam always tends to internalize his feelings, especially the negative ones. He might have underestimated how angry he was. Despite their current situation, I don't think that the bond between Sam and Dean has been irrevocably broken. They have a wealth of shared and unique experiences - who else can claim to have been to Heaven, Hell and Purgatory? They also have a common goal : keeping up the family business. Yes, they are family, and that doesn't change just because Sam says so. I would also like to point out that to Sam, the hunting business is linked to family. He first got into Dean's car because their Dad was missing. In season 8, he quit hunting because his family was gone. He took it up again because of Dean. If Sam really didn't want anything to do with Dean, he wouldn't be hunting with him. He probably wouldn't be hunting at all. I have faith in Jeremy Carver and trust that Sam and Dean will grow as individuals and brothers.
Cat
# Cat 2014-02-08 14:12
Gerry, I commend you for having the courage to post such an honest review. It would have been a lot easier for you to jump on the "Dean deserved it" bandwagon or rave about how Dean being emotionally filleted was somehow going to end up being this great growth experience for him (like someone with horrible self esteem issues being cut down to size works like that.) It's much, much harder to take the position you did and I think you deserve kudos for that. [...]

The more I think about it, though, the more I believe we're not supposed to take everything Sam said as gospel truth. He already set himself up as an unreliable narrator instead of the author's mouthpiece when he rejected Dean as his brother. Even if Carver wants to change the dynamics of the relationship, he's not going to take it that far. Then this week, Jared tweeted that Sam could be a jerk. Which, to me, then throws a lot of what Sam said under suspicion.

The brothers do need to hash out their issues and Sam has legit reason to be angry. But in my opinion, just because Sam spoke calmly didn't mean he wasn't also lashing out. The brothers have a different way with how they fight with each other- Dean is more inclined to express his anger physically by punching or throwing things around while Sam instead uses words as weapons. Which is what I'm hoping is the case here.
Thank you for your review, Gerry, and thank you Lelani for expressing my thoughts. Sam might have thought he was being honest, but I think he left out a few truths that stood in the way of being angry at Dean. As you said, Gerry, Dean had taken on responsibility for Sam at an early age, nurturing him and giving him guidance he couldn't have gotten elsewhere. As we saw in "Bad Boys", Sam knows this. I believe Sam tried to express his feelings about Dean's actions and get to the bottom of the issues in their relationship, but ended up lashing out. Sam always tends to internalize his feelings, especially the negative ones. He might have underestimated how angry he was. Despite their current situation, I don't think that the bond between Sam and Dean has been irrevocably broken. They have a wealth of shared and unique experiences - who else can claim to have been to Heaven, Hell and Purgatory? They also have a common goal : keeping up the family business. Yes, they are family, and that doesn't change just because Sam says so. I would also like to point out that to Sam, the hunting business is linked to family. He first got into Dean's car because their Dad was missing. In season 8, he quit hunting because his family was gone. He took it up again because of Dean. If Sam really didn't want anything to do with Dean, he wouldn't be hunting with him. He probably wouldn't be hunting at all. I have faith in Jeremy Carver and trust that Sam and Dean will grow as individuals and brothers.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-08 14:56
Most excellent review, thoughts and insights. While Sam's words were hard to hear I am struggling to find some solace for Dean, for the brothers, and this has helped. Thanks.

I have also been struggling with the disparity between the brothers. The brothers' relationship is what drew me to this show, and is the thing that keeps me coming back week after week. The fact that they are SO FAR APART right now is very disconcerting. I concur with your comments about how the show has changed a little in that family doesn't seem to be the "be all that ends all" at the moment. Sam's words cut me deep to the core, as it has the majority of the fandom I would say. I also want the brothers fighting for each other at whatever costs, no matter if it goes against their own will or not. I just really hope that Carver & Company have a good way of bringing these brothers back together again, in a way that will fill that need we have of the brothers always being there for each other, the way they always have been. Anything less than that will be unsatisfactory. Right now my faith in Carver is waning. I hope something will be done, and quick, to get him back in my "like" column.
Evelyn
# Evelyn 2014-02-08 14:56
Most excellent review, thoughts and insights. While Sam's words were hard to hear I am struggling to find some solace for Dean, for the brothers, and this has helped. Thanks.

I have also been struggling with the disparity between the brothers. The brothers' relationship is what drew me to this show, and is the thing that keeps me coming back week after week. The fact that they are SO FAR APART right now is very disconcerting. I concur with your comments about how the show has changed a little in that family doesn't seem to be the "be all that ends all" at the moment. Sam's words cut me deep to the core, as it has the majority of the fandom I would say. I also want the brothers fighting for each other at whatever costs, no matter if it goes against their own will or not. I just really hope that Carver & Company have a good way of bringing these brothers back together again, in a way that will fill that need we have of the brothers always being there for each other, the way they always have been. Anything less than that will be unsatisfactory. Right now my faith in Carver is waning. I hope something will be done, and quick, to get him back in my "like" column.
Arad
# Arad 2014-02-08 15:33
Thank you Gerry for this superb review that sums up my feelings completely and makes rational sense of them when I was struggling to.

I don't have much to add to this very thorough discussion, but what I feel most awful about is just before these two eps I was enjoying SPN almost more than I have for...quite a long time (well, since S7, which I know probably discredits me!). I loved "Bad Boys" and am very happy to see it mentioned in this review: what it says about Dean and what Sam said this week are in total, stark dichotomy. I can only hope that somehow Sam can get to see the Dean of "Bad Boys" (the real Dean, not his little-brother view of him).

Is the stuff about the "mark of Cain" that seems to be a bit of a theory going round plausible? I would love to think it was, but such ideas about the Amelia-storylin e last year (the dark figure from 8.1!) were such a bust, I'm not putting too much in it.

If it's not too controversial, I actually miss Sera Gamble (but then I was always her fanboy right from Faith, which after 8 years is still one of my favourites).
Arad
# Arad 2014-02-08 15:33
Thank you Gerry for this superb review that sums up my feelings completely and makes rational sense of them when I was struggling to.

I don't have much to add to this very thorough discussion, but what I feel most awful about is just before these two eps I was enjoying SPN almost more than I have for...quite a long time (well, since S7, which I know probably discredits me!). I loved "Bad Boys" and am very happy to see it mentioned in this review: what it says about Dean and what Sam said this week are in total, stark dichotomy. I can only hope that somehow Sam can get to see the Dean of "Bad Boys" (the real Dean, not his little-brother view of him).

Is the stuff about the "mark of Cain" that seems to be a bit of a theory going round plausible? I would love to think it was, but such ideas about the Amelia-storylin e last year (the dark figure from 8.1!) were such a bust, I'm not putting too much in it.

If it's not too controversial, I actually miss Sera Gamble (but then I was always her fanboy right from Faith, which after 8 years is still one of my favourites).
Giorgia
# Giorgia 2014-02-08 15:41
you can definetly read my heart and express ALL my feelings right now!
great review!
Giorgia
# Giorgia 2014-02-08 15:41
you can definetly read my heart and express ALL my feelings right now!
great review!
Haleh
# Haleh 2014-02-08 15:50
VERY well written. Thanks for this!
Haleh
# Haleh 2014-02-08 15:50
VERY well written. Thanks for this!
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-02-08 16:22
Bless you Gerry! I, too, agree with everything you have written.

I cannot reconcile the way Sam's words were said to the words of Carver's best episodes. Supernatural christmas, Mystery Spot, etc., If he is trying to bring them back to what used to be, or rip them apart for good. I was stricken by his words and it seemed to be a knife plunged into my gut!
For days I've been trying to understand how Sam could be so blind and so very cruel. Today what I feel for Sam is trying hard not to hate him. In the words of Ralph Kramden "Pow! Right in the kisser!"

I can't help but cry as it seems I am grieving, not for a person who passed, but for the death of a relationship that I loved and admired beyond reason!
God or Chuck, if you are still out there, please save what I loved and mend this quickly. This pain for fictional characters feels so horribly real. That's my 'reality' and 'my truths'! :o :-? :sad: :cry:
Bevie
# Bevie 2014-02-08 16:22
Bless you Gerry! I, too, agree with everything you have written.

I cannot reconcile the way Sam's words were said to the words of Carver's best episodes. Supernatural christmas, Mystery Spot, etc., If he is trying to bring them back to what used to be, or rip them apart for good. I was stricken by his words and it seemed to be a knife plunged into my gut!
For days I've been trying to understand how Sam could be so blind and so very cruel. Today what I feel for Sam is trying hard not to hate him. In the words of Ralph Kramden "Pow! Right in the kisser!"

I can't help but cry as it seems I am grieving, not for a person who passed, but for the death of a relationship that I loved and admired beyond reason!
God or Chuck, if you are still out there, please save what I loved and mend this quickly. This pain for fictional characters feels so horribly real. That's my 'reality' and 'my truths'! :o :-? :sad: :cry:
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 17:12
Quoting anonymousN:
I am sorry Gerry as this is the first review of yours that i could not read in one go.But we cannot help what our reactions to the show will be.Your review is appreciated as I like your reviews normally and I got to know how you think .


AnonymousN, I am glad you took the time to read and I haven't any expectations everyone will agree with my interpretation. Thank you for liking what you've read of mine in the past and I do hope the show goes places we both can enjoy and discuss.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 17:12
Quote:
I am sorry Gerry as this is the first review of yours that i could not read in one go.But we cannot help what our reactions to the show will be.Your review is appreciated as I like your reviews normally and I got to know how you think .
AnonymousN, I am glad you took the time to read and I haven't any expectations everyone will agree with my interpretation. Thank you for liking what you've read of mine in the past and I do hope the show goes places we both can enjoy and discuss.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 17:21
Quoting Ginger:
Quoting Beanie:
I left this site with SweetOnDean and the fallout after an article written by (I believe Alice) about Jensen but it was suggested I come read Gerry's articles/reviews.......

I no longer read the comments and rarely post......but Welcome Gerry!! I will come back to read any of your reviews.

Oh, and while I was here, I went and read Nate's review of Sharp Teeth!!

Hee-hee....loved it!


I want to welcome you, too, Gerry and hope that the backlash from this article does not drive you away. After my most recent scolding; I, too, am leaving this site, but I will continue to read every one of your articles. Even though I won't comment on them, please know that I have always found, and without doubt will continue to find, them to be of excellent analysis. They have helped me understand aspects of episodes that I had not sussed out. You are very talented.


Thanks for all the warm welcomes I have received over the last couple of weeks - I appreciate them all. Ginger, thank you for your kind words and I'll miss your comments. I like reading all the different takes people have on the episodes - this fandom has so many excellent commenters from all perspectives.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 17:21
Quote:
Quote:
I left this site with SweetOnDean and the fallout after an article written by (I believe Alice) about Jensen but it was suggested I come read Gerry's articles/reviews.......

I no longer read the comments and rarely post......but Welcome Gerry!! I will come back to read any of your reviews.

Oh, and while I was here, I went and read Nate's review of Sharp Teeth!!

Hee-hee....loved it!
I want to welcome you, too, Gerry and hope that the backlash from this article does not drive you away. After my most recent scolding; I, too, am leaving this site, but I will continue to read every one of your articles. Even though I won't comment on them, please know that I have always found, and without doubt will continue to find, them to be of excellent analysis. They have helped me understand aspects of episodes that I had not sussed out. You are very talented.
Thanks for all the warm welcomes I have received over the last couple of weeks - I appreciate them all. Ginger, thank you for your kind words and I'll miss your comments. I like reading all the different takes people have on the episodes - this fandom has so many excellent commenters from all perspectives.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-02-08 17:31
(Warning from Alice - This comment was reported, a few times. It's character bashing that's for sure, but it's worded in such a way where it's more implied than direct. So, I'll just warn this time. No Sam vs. Dean. Next comment like this gets edited.)

Thanks for an excellent review that grapples with all of the hard issues. I especially appreciate you reliance on canon and logic in voicing your opinion. I think that you are a wonderful addition.

On another site I frequent we have thrown Sam out of the endgame equation as a result of this episode, towards speculating that that Castiel will be the one to save Dean. After all he is the one that understands him and loves him. Dean is going dark which I think will be a dark Willow kind of scenario. He will need someone that he loves and trusts to bring him back. At this point that cannot be Sam. Given what was said and the emphasis that Purgatory places on those words... well I think Dean's rose-colored glasses regarding his brother have shattered. Sadly now there is no demon blood or demons to hide behind. His brother isn't a hero and cannot be counted on in a pinch. Besides that he is realistically a burden and a liability since he needs saving so often. Sam tied to a chair or unconscious needs to be a drinking game.

It's shocking that this is the direction maturity is taking. The brotherly bromance is dead. Too late really based on all of the fans cheering for Dean to exit a psychologically abusive relationship.

Let's hope that Dean offs Sabaddon giving Sam and Crowley their wish.
CASTIELs cat
# CASTIELs cat 2014-02-08 17:31
(Warning from Alice - This comment was reported, a few times. It's character bashing that's for sure, but it's worded in such a way where it's more implied than direct. So, I'll just warn this time. No Sam vs. Dean. Next comment like this gets edited.)

Thanks for an excellent review that grapples with all of the hard issues. I especially appreciate you reliance on canon and logic in voicing your opinion. I think that you are a wonderful addition.

On another site I frequent we have thrown Sam out of the endgame equation as a result of this episode, towards speculating that that Castiel will be the one to save Dean. After all he is the one that understands him and loves him. Dean is going dark which I think will be a dark Willow kind of scenario. He will need someone that he loves and trusts to bring him back. At this point that cannot be Sam. Given what was said and the emphasis that Purgatory places on those words... well I think Dean's rose-colored glasses regarding his brother have shattered. Sadly now there is no demon blood or demons to hide behind. His brother isn't a hero and cannot be counted on in a pinch. Besides that he is realistically a burden and a liability since he needs saving so often. Sam tied to a chair or unconscious needs to be a drinking game.

It's shocking that this is the direction maturity is taking. The brotherly bromance is dead. Too late really based on all of the fans cheering for Dean to exit a psychologically abusive relationship.

Let's hope that Dean offs Sabaddon giving Sam and Crowley their wish.
cj
# cj 2014-02-08 17:55
Great balanced review I hope to read more of your reviews in future :) nice to see Dean's side presented more on this site.
cj
# cj 2014-02-08 17:55
Great balanced review I hope to read more of your reviews in future :) nice to see Dean's side presented more on this site.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 18:03
Quoting Volta1228:
This was excellent! Thank you so, SO much for this review.

I've been a bit dismayed as so many saying that his was an "brutally honest" speech by Sam in reviews, etc. It literally pains me. I just can't see it that way for every reason you outlined about. This, to me, is Sam lashing out. He has a right to be angry at the possession stuff, obviously, but throwing all the blame onto Dean for the gates of hell stuff, stripping him emotionally down to nothing, and the accusations Sam made were both cruel and unfair. They only serve to reinforce every bad thing Dean thinks about himself. How does Sam think this will help Dean in his current mental state? At all?

This speech combined w/ the last one in Sharp Teeth, the way it was phrased in general terms, made Dean out to not only be the bad guy in the instance of the Gadreel possession... but in the entire series. Everything is wrong because they're family? That being the core of everything Dean stands for, the thing that stopped the apocolypse and saved so many lives, those words only serve to say "All the ideals you hold and things you've done Dean have done more bad then good."

I just was left in shock at this. This whole show is built on the idea of family and going the extra mile for one another. It's what saved the world in the apocalypse. Dean's sacrifices have hurt him greatly and to say otherwise is just plain a lie. Saving the world did more good then harm, and now I get the feeling Sam does not feel like Dean had an important role in that moment in Swan Song... which couldn't be further from the truth.

I am also in agreement that Dean & Sam should have asked way more questions before they tried to close the gates of hell and that Sam has done nothing but send mixed signals to Dean since the beginning of season 8. Not only that, but Sam *had the choice* to close the gates of hell and *he chose not too*. Why are they forgetting this? Dean only appealed to Sam to stop, but if Sam really, truly wanted to die to close the gates nothing was stopping him. Shifting the blame to Dean now is not only unfair, but it's ignoring the fact that Sam ultimately held the power in that situation... as he did in 9x01 when he chose NOT to go with Death.

So, I truly hope the show is not trying to say that Sam's POV here is right, but rather that it's his extreme view that is polar opposite to Dean's, and that each need to meet somewhere in the middle.

To say Sam is right in all the words he says now negates the entire premise of the show and disregards every sacrifice and good thing Dean has done. That would be a travesty.

I think they will rebuild to meet in the middle, and I PRAY Sam will FINALLY be called out on his own failings in the relationship... but they are walking a fine line here and it worries me greatly if they're trying to say Sam is mature here.

Who wants to watch two heroes who won't save each other when the going gets tough? Who shrug and except say, "well, guess I'll let you die then. Natural order." I thought it was pretty terrible when I watched it at beginning of season 8, so I have no desire to see that be the status quo myself. To me, it's not heroic at all.

Do limits need to be set? Yes. Does Dean desperately need to find some self-worth and identity again? Yes. Is this the right way to go about it? Um, no.

I am just hoping, HOPING the plan is to show that what they really need to do is understand each other, not say that Sam is right here, or that Dean needs to change the entire core of his being (one that I love).


Volta I too really hope the boys are supposed to meet in the middle--that was my expectation until this episode. But I thought the way the scene between the boys was handled was that Sam was giving the mature position. And as I've said, I completely believe Sam should be hurt and angry over the Gadreel decision. I just also believe it's been shown there is more to unpack on his acceptance of death and that the way he is now judging Dean's view of family as being responsible for all the bad things they've had to deal with is a change to the story.

I'm crossing my fingers this is far from the foundation on which the relationship will be rebuilt.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 18:03
Quote:
This was excellent! Thank you so, SO much for this review.

I've been a bit dismayed as so many saying that his was an "brutally honest" speech by Sam in reviews, etc. It literally pains me. I just can't see it that way for every reason you outlined about. This, to me, is Sam lashing out. He has a right to be angry at the possession stuff, obviously, but throwing all the blame onto Dean for the gates of hell stuff, stripping him emotionally down to nothing, and the accusations Sam made were both cruel and unfair. They only serve to reinforce every bad thing Dean thinks about himself. How does Sam think this will help Dean in his current mental state? At all?

This speech combined w/ the last one in Sharp Teeth, the way it was phrased in general terms, made Dean out to not only be the bad guy in the instance of the Gadreel possession... but in the entire series. Everything is wrong because they're family? That being the core of everything Dean stands for, the thing that stopped the apocolypse and saved so many lives, those words only serve to say "All the ideals you hold and things you've done Dean have done more bad then good."

I just was left in shock at this. This whole show is built on the idea of family and going the extra mile for one another. It's what saved the world in the apocalypse. Dean's sacrifices have hurt him greatly and to say otherwise is just plain a lie. Saving the world did more good then harm, and now I get the feeling Sam does not feel like Dean had an important role in that moment in Swan Song... which couldn't be further from the truth.

I am also in agreement that Dean & Sam should have asked way more questions before they tried to close the gates of hell and that Sam has done nothing but send mixed signals to Dean since the beginning of season 8. Not only that, but Sam *had the choice* to close the gates of hell and *he chose not too*. Why are they forgetting this? Dean only appealed to Sam to stop, but if Sam really, truly wanted to die to close the gates nothing was stopping him. Shifting the blame to Dean now is not only unfair, but it's ignoring the fact that Sam ultimately held the power in that situation... as he did in 9x01 when he chose NOT to go with Death.

So, I truly hope the show is not trying to say that Sam's POV here is right, but rather that it's his extreme view that is polar opposite to Dean's, and that each need to meet somewhere in the middle.

To say Sam is right in all the words he says now negates the entire premise of the show and disregards every sacrifice and good thing Dean has done. That would be a travesty.

I think they will rebuild to meet in the middle, and I PRAY Sam will FINALLY be called out on his own failings in the relationship... but they are walking a fine line here and it worries me greatly if they're trying to say Sam is mature here.

Who wants to watch two heroes who won't save each other when the going gets tough? Who shrug and except say, "well, guess I'll let you die then. Natural order." I thought it was pretty terrible when I watched it at beginning of season 8, so I have no desire to see that be the status quo myself. To me, it's not heroic at all.

Do limits need to be set? Yes. Does Dean desperately need to find some self-worth and identity again? Yes. Is this the right way to go about it? Um, no.

I am just hoping, HOPING the plan is to show that what they really need to do is understand each other, not say that Sam is right here, or that Dean needs to change the entire core of his being (one that I love).

Volta I too really hope the boys are supposed to meet in the middle--that was my expectation until this episode. But I thought the way the scene between the boys was handled was that Sam was giving the mature position. And as I've said, I completely believe Sam should be hurt and angry over the Gadreel decision. I just also believe it's been shown there is more to unpack on his acceptance of death and that the way he is now judging Dean's view of family as being responsible for all the bad things they've had to deal with is a change to the story.

I'm crossing my fingers this is far from the foundation on which the relationship will be rebuilt.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 18:07
Quoting CASTIELs cat:
Thanks for an excellent review that grapples with all of the hard issues. I especially appreciate you reliance on canon and logic in voicing your opinion. I think that you are a wonderful addition.

On another site I frequent we have thrown Sam out of the endgame equation as a result of this episode, towards speculating that that Castiel will be the one to save Dean. After all he is the one that understands him and loves him. Dean is going dark which I think will be a dark Willow kind of scenario. He will need someone that he loves and trusts to bring him back. At this point that cannot be Sam. Given what was said and the emphasis that Purgatory places on those words... well I think Dean's rose-colored glasses regarding his brother have shattered. Sadly now there is no demon blood or demons to hide behind. His brother isn't a hero and cannot be counted on in a pinch. Besides that he is realistically a burden and a liability since he needs saving so often. Sam tied to a chair or unconscious needs to be a drinking game.

It's shocking that this is the direction maturity is taking. The brotherly bromance is dead. Too late really based on all of the fans cheering for Dean to exit a psychologically abusive relationship.

Let's hope that Dean offs Sabaddon giving Sam and Crowley their wish.


Castiel's Cat, while I have issues with the episode, I do not think Sam and Dean have had an abusive relationship--I think the opposite-- I do not view Sam as a burden and my hope is the boys find a way to bridge this chasm I wish the writers had not framed in this way. They are both heroes dealing with very unfair circumstnces which give them few good choices.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-08 18:07
Quote:
Thanks for an excellent review that grapples with all of the hard issues. I especially appreciate you reliance on canon and logic in voicing your opinion. I think that you are a wonderful addition.

On another site I frequent we have thrown Sam out of the endgame equation as a result of this episode, towards speculating that that Castiel will be the one to save Dean. After all he is the one that understands him and loves him. Dean is going dark which I think will be a dark Willow kind of scenario. He will need someone that he loves and trusts to bring him back. At this point that cannot be Sam. Given what was said and the emphasis that Purgatory places on those words... well I think Dean's rose-colored glasses regarding his brother have shattered. Sadly now there is no demon blood or demons to hide behind. His brother isn't a hero and cannot be counted on in a pinch. Besides that he is realistically a burden and a liability since he needs saving so often. Sam tied to a chair or unconscious needs to be a drinking game.

It's shocking that this is the direction maturity is taking. The brotherly bromance is dead. Too late really based on all of the fans cheering for Dean to exit a psychologically abusive relationship.

Let's hope that Dean offs Sabaddon giving Sam and Crowley their wish.
Castiel's Cat, while I have issues with the episode, I do not think Sam and Dean have had an abusive relationship--I think the opposite-- I do not view Sam as a burden and my hope is the boys find a way to bridge this chasm I wish the writers had not framed in this way. They are both heroes dealing with very unfair circumstnces which give them few good choices.
FreeForAll
# FreeForAll 2014-02-08 18:39
Loved your review, Gerry. I don't know of any Dean fan who doesn't think Sam doesn't have the right to be angry about Gadreel; they think the problem is that he didn't stop there and went on to spout some things that weren't true.

It wasn't Dean's fault that Sam stopped the trials; that's on Sam. Sure, Dean asked him to stop, maybe even begged him to stop, but the actual decision to stop was Sam's, and unless the show is trying to tell us that Sam is weak-willed and not very bright, then Dean's telling Sam that he didn't want Sam to die did not "talk me out" of doing something Sam thought was important for him to do.

Even worse, Sam attacked Dean's whole life. Dean has never sacrificed anything unless he wasn't the one getting hurt? Hell was a walk in the park, then? It didn't hurt Dean to let Sam go in "Swan Song?" All the sacrifices Dean made in taking care of his family from the time he was a child--somethin g some other Sam acknowledged in "Bad Boys" and "Salvation"--di dn't hurt him? We've seen how much it has.

And Dean has done more bad than good in his life? Try asking all the people who are alive because of Dean. How about all the times Dean saved Sam when Sam didn't have a problem with it? Sam's saying this was unbelievably destructive, in my opinion, of what little self-esteem Dean has left.

Sam keeps accusing Dean of not honoring his wishes. How was Dean supposed to know that Sam suddenly wanted to die? Was Sam sending him post-it notes from Coma-land? The bookends last season were Sam insisting on doing the trials because he wants to live and Dean doesn't (I didn't see suicidal Dean but realistic Dean but that a post for another article) and Sam's saying that, yes, he did want to live. So as far as Dean knew, he *was* honoring Sam's wishes when he did everything he could to save his brother. He had no way of knowing that Sam had changed his mind.

Contrary to his claim that all Dean's decision here did was cause harm, it actually did more good (I'm not addressing the trials here--because we don't really know if the gates would actually have closed, Metatron being a villain and all, or if it would have been a good thing; and the angel war had nothing to do with the trials) than bad. Yes, Kevin died--and while I don't fault Sam for being upset over that, we do have to remember that Sam abandoned Kevin to his fate, even though he knew that Crowley had snatched Kevin for a whole year and never seem to think about him or care about his fate even once (and I think Kevin was a goner anyway because Metatron wanted the last prophet dead and wanted the tablet and he would have gotten Kevin some way--but because Gadreel was there, Castiel lived, Charlie lived and, yes, Sam lived.

I also think Sam is more than a little hypocritical in light of his behavior toward Castiel during (and after) 9.11. Sam definitely wanted to die there so that Cas could find Gadreel--and in this situation, his death would actually have mattered--but Cas ignored Sam's wishes and made the decision for Sam, who later said Castiel was right about that decision, about the fact that Sam wanted to live and about the fact that Dean and Sam chose each other, and Sam appears to harbor no anger toward Cas.

As for the rape allegation, I have a little patience with it now as I did when it was alleged with the whole soulless Sam business (I was amazed at the number of Sam fans who seemed to have no problem with leaving Sam's soul in the cage and who excoriated Dean for trying to get it out of there). First, I think it's offensive and an insult to anyone who has been raped or who knows someone who has.

Second, you know who else doesn't seem to see it as rape? That would be Sam. He's only ranted about having his wishes not respected because, he claims, Dean always thinks he knows better (does Sam really know Dean "Mr. No Self-Esteem And I Screw Up All The Time And Everything Is My Fault" Winchester at all?) and always plays the savior. I have yet to hear him say anything about the possession itself or to say how terrible it was to be possessed and not to be in control of his body and so on.

I don't like that the show never has Dean really fight back when Sam says things like this even though there is plenty of ammo in the armory, but if the show were writing Dean the way they're writing Sam right now, I'd be furious. I think TPTB may have done irreparable damage to Sam's character.
FreeForAll
# FreeForAll 2014-02-08 18:39
Loved your review, Gerry. I don't know of any Dean fan who doesn't think Sam doesn't have the right to be angry about Gadreel; they think the problem is that he didn't stop there and went on to spout some things that weren't true.

It wasn't Dean's fault that Sam stopped the trials; that's on Sam. Sure, Dean asked him to stop, maybe even begged him to stop, but the actual decision to stop was Sam's, and unless the show is trying to tell us that Sam is weak-willed and not very bright, then Dean's telling Sam that he didn't want Sam to die did not "talk me out" of doing something Sam thought was important for him to do.

Even worse, Sam attacked Dean's whole life. Dean has never sacrificed anything unless he wasn't the one getting hurt? Hell was a walk in the park, then? It didn't hurt Dean to let Sam go in "Swan Song?" All the sacrifices Dean made in taking care of his family from the time he was a child--somethin g some other Sam acknowledged in "Bad Boys" and "Salvation"--di dn't hurt him? We've seen how much it has.

And Dean has done more bad than good in his life? Try asking all the people who are alive because of Dean. How about all the times Dean saved Sam when Sam didn't have a problem with it? Sam's saying this was unbelievably destructive, in my opinion, of what little self-esteem Dean has left.

Sam keeps accusing Dean of not honoring his wishes. How was Dean supposed to know that Sam suddenly wanted to die? Was Sam sending him post-it notes from Coma-land? The bookends last season were Sam insisting on doing the trials because he wants to live and Dean doesn't (I didn't see suicidal Dean but realistic Dean but that a post for another article) and Sam's saying that, yes, he did want to live. So as far as Dean knew, he *was* honoring Sam's wishes when he did everything he could to save his brother. He had no way of knowing that Sam had changed his mind.

Contrary to his claim that all Dean's decision here did was cause harm, it actually did more good (I'm not addressing the trials here--because we don't really know if the gates would actually have closed, Metatron being a villain and all, or if it would have been a good thing; and the angel war had nothing to do with the trials) than bad. Yes, Kevin died--and while I don't fault Sam for being upset over that, we do have to remember that Sam abandoned Kevin to his fate, even though he knew that Crowley had snatched Kevin for a whole year and never seem to think about him or care about his fate even once (and I think Kevin was a goner anyway because Metatron wanted the last prophet dead and wanted the tablet and he would have gotten Kevin some way--but because Gadreel was there, Castiel lived, Charlie lived and, yes, Sam lived.

I also think Sam is more than a little hypocritical in light of his behavior toward Castiel during (and after) 9.11. Sam definitely wanted to die there so that Cas could find Gadreel--and in this situation, his death would actually have mattered--but Cas ignored Sam's wishes and made the decision for Sam, who later said Castiel was right about that decision, about the fact that Sam wanted to live and about the fact that Dean and Sam chose each other, and Sam appears to harbor no anger toward Cas.

As for the rape allegation, I have a little patience with it now as I did when it was alleged with the whole soulless Sam business (I was amazed at the number of Sam fans who seemed to have no problem with leaving Sam's soul in the cage and who excoriated Dean for trying to get it out of there). First, I think it's offensive and an insult to anyone who has been raped or who knows someone who has.

Second, you know who else doesn't seem to see it as rape? That would be Sam. He's only ranted about having his wishes not respected because, he claims, Dean always thinks he knows better (does Sam really know Dean "Mr. No Self-Esteem And I Screw Up All The Time And Everything Is My Fault" Winchester at all?) and always plays the savior. I have yet to hear him say anything about the possession itself or to say how terrible it was to be possessed and not to be in control of his body and so on.

I don't like that the show never has Dean really fight back when Sam says things like this even though there is plenty of ammo in the armory, but if the show were writing Dean the way they're writing Sam right now, I'd be furious. I think TPTB may have done irreparable damage to Sam's character.
Bella-UK
# Bella-UK 2014-02-08 19:27
I don't think that anyone has raised this issue from what I've seen. I also put this comment up on IMDb in the Sam Squad.

No one has noticed that the mark of Cain on Dean's arm could be responsible for this whole sham. Remember 'Sex and Violence' with the Siren. He controlled the boys. The mark of Cain mark disrupts family life and isolates the bearer. This year something Supernatural could be getting between the boys and controlling them and their thoughts. Sam never even questioned that mark, maybe because he's also been infected. Cas could be the one to get them out of this wired spot? Something to think about anyway. I am loving the comments.
Bella-UK
# Bella-UK 2014-02-08 19:27
I don't think that anyone has raised this issue from what I've seen. I also put this comment up on IMDb in the Sam Squad.

No one has noticed that the mark of Cain on Dean's arm could be responsible for this whole sham. Remember 'Sex and Violence' with the Siren. He controlled the boys. The mark of Cain mark disrupts family life and isolates the bearer. This year something Supernatural could be getting between the boys and controlling them and their thoughts. Sam never even questioned that mark, maybe because he's also been infected. Cas could be the one to get them out of this wired spot? Something to think about anyway. I am loving the comments.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-08 21:30
FreeforAll,

Dean DOES think he knows better. We saw it very clearly this year with Sam, Kevin, just about everybody.

Nobody has hurt Sam the way Dean has, starting with the demon deal, and all the way up to the Gadreel possession. Sam was in Heaven when Dean brought him back at Cold Oak, brought him back to wait for Dean to die and then fight the demons alone, knowing his brother was in Hell because of him. The Deal ultimately destroyed Sam and landed him in the Devil's Pit. I'm only talking about Sam's POV here, but there's another side to all the sacrificing that Dean does, without stopping to think about the impact on Sam's life.

Sam is definitely lashing out, and he's putting in everything but the kitchen sink and I can see how much it's hurting Dean, but some of it is true. I think that Sam has finally realised how selfish Dean's love is. And it is! I know that Dean sacrificed a lot growing up for Sam, but it's no excuse to do whatever he wants now. Does he have any idea how much he's hurt his brother? Is he in denial, or does he know but he thinks it's worth it? I don't know which it is, but Dean can't keep treating Sam like he's an object to be protected instead of a human being with his own wants and desires.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-08 21:30
FreeforAll,

Dean DOES think he knows better. We saw it very clearly this year with Sam, Kevin, just about everybody.

Nobody has hurt Sam the way Dean has, starting with the demon deal, and all the way up to the Gadreel possession. Sam was in Heaven when Dean brought him back at Cold Oak, brought him back to wait for Dean to die and then fight the demons alone, knowing his brother was in Hell because of him. The Deal ultimately destroyed Sam and landed him in the Devil's Pit. I'm only talking about Sam's POV here, but there's another side to all the sacrificing that Dean does, without stopping to think about the impact on Sam's life.

Sam is definitely lashing out, and he's putting in everything but the kitchen sink and I can see how much it's hurting Dean, but some of it is true. I think that Sam has finally realised how selfish Dean's love is. And it is! I know that Dean sacrificed a lot growing up for Sam, but it's no excuse to do whatever he wants now. Does he have any idea how much he's hurt his brother? Is he in denial, or does he know but he thinks it's worth it? I don't know which it is, but Dean can't keep treating Sam like he's an object to be protected instead of a human being with his own wants and desires.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 21:42
the popular opinion here is most think dean needs to be coddled right now and as i sit here by myself in the minority, as someone who cares about dean's well being, i think coddling dean right now is the worst thing for him.
as gabriel once told sam....there's a lesson to be learned here.
in sharp teeth reverend jim warned dean of the dark path that revenge puts you on, never to be truly satisifed once it's exacted, leaving in you a hole never to be filled. . sam at the end of the episode explained that something was broken. he essentially told dean that if they were to really be brothers as brothers should be, they had to work on their relationship. no more sweeping under the rug. no more 'we're family" so that means we can do whatever we want to to ea. other.
in the purge sam, who really just found out the truth and is still processing the hurt/betrayal and the anger and the guilt over kevin, is hearing his brother tell him that what he did, saving his life in the church, and at the hospital, he would do the same thing all over again.
nobody else but me and sam was alarmed by this revelation? not the saving him in the church part, not the saving him back there at the spa, but the part when he said he would save him at the hospital, he would do it all just the same.
sam's question to dean about saving him for him or for himself was a question sam asked after dean revealed that he would do it all again...exactly the same.
when dean said that i started freaking yelling at him. what the hell dean? what's wrong with you? and you know what, i think sam's alarm bells went off the same way mine did. because it wasn't until dean told sam that he'd do it all again that sam resorted to what i feel is a bit of tough love. that's when sam posed the question, a question that will upset him enough to really actually think on it.
i have no doubt that what sam said was in fact partly due to anger, but i also feel what he said is partly due to fear. fear for dean. when he told dean he wouldn't do it the same way, if circumstances were duplicate and situation reversed, i believe sam took the first step in saving his brother's life and i'm not necessarily talking about just his physical body.
let's really examine what saving sam has done for dean.
dean has been living for months with guilt and fear.
he's lying to his brother, he's lying to cas, he's lying to kevin. he's isolated himself in a world of pain and deceit.
he finds out that the angel possessing his brother isn't who he claims to be, kills kevin and walks off with sam.
now dean has to deal with both the loss of kevin and sam.
dean is drinking . he is not sleeping anymore. he's back on the path of revenge again.
coddling dean right now, sam telling dean that what he did is ok and all is forgiven is the worse thing sam can do for dean.
if sam doesn't get through to dean in a way that will make him understand that these extreme measures he takes to save sam only lead to pain for dean, sam and others as well, then dean will never end the cycle and it will eventually destroy him.
do you think dean is in a dark place right now because of sam? no, he's in a dark place right now because what he did ended up hurting sam and kevin. now dean is back to alcohol, he's not sleeping and he's seeking revenge as if killing gadreel will take away all his pain and guilt. sam knows it won't from experience. dean may kill gadreel, but it won't end dean's guilt. dean will just do what he always does, he'll bury it. and that will eventually lead to dean's willingness to sacrifice himself and round and round we go.
sam may have been harsh on dean, but if it's the only way sam can get through to dean, then hell, i give sam my blessing to hammer on dean at least once every episode until dean finally understands where sam is coming from.
like i said, i don't think it's all about anger right now with sam. i think the minute dean told sam that he'd do it all again the exact same way, i think that also scared sam. and if i were in sam's shoes i would do and say whatever it took to get dean to see how detrimental dean's way of thinking is. that in the end, it will only cause those who love him pain and he will end up destroying himself. it's happened before and it's not going to stop unless dean can come to understand that he can no longer make decisions for others especially sam. dean also needs to learn to let go.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-08 21:42
the popular opinion here is most think dean needs to be coddled right now and as i sit here by myself in the minority, as someone who cares about dean's well being, i think coddling dean right now is the worst thing for him.
as gabriel once told sam....there's a lesson to be learned here.
in sharp teeth reverend jim warned dean of the dark path that revenge puts you on, never to be truly satisifed once it's exacted, leaving in you a hole never to be filled. . sam at the end of the episode explained that something was broken. he essentially told dean that if they were to really be brothers as brothers should be, they had to work on their relationship. no more sweeping under the rug. no more 'we're family" so that means we can do whatever we want to to ea. other.
in the purge sam, who really just found out the truth and is still processing the hurt/betrayal and the anger and the guilt over kevin, is hearing his brother tell him that what he did, saving his life in the church, and at the hospital, he would do the same thing all over again.
nobody else but me and sam was alarmed by this revelation? not the saving him in the church part, not the saving him back there at the spa, but the part when he said he would save him at the hospital, he would do it all just the same.
sam's question to dean about saving him for him or for himself was a question sam asked after dean revealed that he would do it all again...exactly the same.
when dean said that i started freaking yelling at him. what the hell dean? what's wrong with you? and you know what, i think sam's alarm bells went off the same way mine did. because it wasn't until dean told sam that he'd do it all again that sam resorted to what i feel is a bit of tough love. that's when sam posed the question, a question that will upset him enough to really actually think on it.
i have no doubt that what sam said was in fact partly due to anger, but i also feel what he said is partly due to fear. fear for dean. when he told dean he wouldn't do it the same way, if circumstances were duplicate and situation reversed, i believe sam took the first step in saving his brother's life and i'm not necessarily talking about just his physical body.
let's really examine what saving sam has done for dean.
dean has been living for months with guilt and fear.
he's lying to his brother, he's lying to cas, he's lying to kevin. he's isolated himself in a world of pain and deceit.
he finds out that the angel possessing his brother isn't who he claims to be, kills kevin and walks off with sam.
now dean has to deal with both the loss of kevin and sam.
dean is drinking . he is not sleeping anymore. he's back on the path of revenge again.
coddling dean right now, sam telling dean that what he did is ok and all is forgiven is the worse thing sam can do for dean.
if sam doesn't get through to dean in a way that will make him understand that these extreme measures he takes to save sam only lead to pain for dean, sam and others as well, then dean will never end the cycle and it will eventually destroy him.
do you think dean is in a dark place right now because of sam? no, he's in a dark place right now because what he did ended up hurting sam and kevin. now dean is back to alcohol, he's not sleeping and he's seeking revenge as if killing gadreel will take away all his pain and guilt. sam knows it won't from experience. dean may kill gadreel, but it won't end dean's guilt. dean will just do what he always does, he'll bury it. and that will eventually lead to dean's willingness to sacrifice himself and round and round we go.
sam may have been harsh on dean, but if it's the only way sam can get through to dean, then hell, i give sam my blessing to hammer on dean at least once every episode until dean finally understands where sam is coming from.
like i said, i don't think it's all about anger right now with sam. i think the minute dean told sam that he'd do it all again the exact same way, i think that also scared sam. and if i were in sam's shoes i would do and say whatever it took to get dean to see how detrimental dean's way of thinking is. that in the end, it will only cause those who love him pain and he will end up destroying himself. it's happened before and it's not going to stop unless dean can come to understand that he can no longer make decisions for others especially sam. dean also needs to learn to let go.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-02-08 22:08
"He’s aware of the consent issues with the angel possession, as we’ve already seen."
When did we see that? Because he certainly hasn't said so to Sam. I'm genuinely curious about what evidence you see of this.

"But the situation is not black and white to him. He tells Sam, “I may not think things all the way through but what I do, I do because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.” "
How in the world is "I'm right and I'd do it again" not black and white? Sounds to me like Dean has rules. Rule 1-Dean is right. Rule 2-if Dean is wrong, refer to rule 1.

"Dean’s words leave lots of room to engage his argument."
They do??? In what world? Sam has been patiently waiting for his apology, and has agreed to continue working with Dean (I wouldn't) while giving Dean ample time to apologize and make things right, and Dean REFUSES.

I so love Sam standing up and saying you have to respect my boundaries and I also love Sam saying I wouldn't screw you over just to save your life. Dean OTOH has me so angered, by his constant, obnoxious indifference to how much he's hurt his brother.

The bottom line is- DEAN NEEDS TO CHANGE. When Dean made that demon deal, I was sad for him. But I thought he'd learned his lesson in hell. Then when he sacrificed Benny, I was sad, but a bit ill frankly. Now that he's gaslighted and mind erased his brother in the name of "saving him," I can only see his codependence isn't just sad, it's toxic, and more than a bit pathetic. If he can't see how these destructive behaviors poison his relationships, and grow up and get past them, I'll lose what respect I have for Dean.
Rick D
# Rick D 2014-02-08 22:08
"He’s aware of the consent issues with the angel possession, as we’ve already seen."
When did we see that? Because he certainly hasn't said so to Sam. I'm genuinely curious about what evidence you see of this.

"But the situation is not black and white to him. He tells Sam, “I may not think things all the way through but what I do, I do because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again.” "
How in the world is "I'm right and I'd do it again" not black and white? Sounds to me like Dean has rules. Rule 1-Dean is right. Rule 2-if Dean is wrong, refer to rule 1.

"Dean’s words leave lots of room to engage his argument."
They do??? In what world? Sam has been patiently waiting for his apology, and has agreed to continue working with Dean (I wouldn't) while giving Dean ample time to apologize and make things right, and Dean REFUSES.

I so love Sam standing up and saying you have to respect my boundaries and I also love Sam saying I wouldn't screw you over just to save your life. Dean OTOH has me so angered, by his constant, obnoxious indifference to how much he's hurt his brother.

The bottom line is- DEAN NEEDS TO CHANGE. When Dean made that demon deal, I was sad for him. But I thought he'd learned his lesson in hell. Then when he sacrificed Benny, I was sad, but a bit ill frankly. Now that he's gaslighted and mind erased his brother in the name of "saving him," I can only see his codependence isn't just sad, it's toxic, and more than a bit pathetic. If he can't see how these destructive behaviors poison his relationships, and grow up and get past them, I'll lose what respect I have for Dean.
E
# E 2014-02-08 22:11
Quoting Bella-UK:
I don't think that anyone has raised this issue from what I've seen. I also put this comment up on IMDb in the Sam Squad.

No one has noticed that the mark of Cain on Dean's arm could be responsible for this whole sham. Remember 'Sex and Violence' with the Siren. He controlled the boys. The mark of Cain mark disrupts family life and isolates the bearer. This year something Supernatural could be getting between the boys and controlling them and their thoughts. Sam never even questioned that mark, maybe because he's also been infected. Cas could be the one to get them out of this wired spot? Something to think about anyway. I am loving the comments.


Hi Bella-UK. This is a good point, and one that I actually didn't think about on my own, silly me! The MoC could indeed be affecting Dean's behavior somewhat. It wouldn't account for all of Dean's actions this season certainly, but maybe it is just beginning to affect how he is processing this latest set of events between he and Sam. Sam could be infected too; maybe the MoC causes strife between brothers? That would stand to reason after all. Maybe Dean accepting the mark will cause him to slowly begin to want or feel compelled to kill Sam and Sam will have to figure out how to save Dean from what would surely be Dean's total and complete undoing. Cain did say to Dean that wearing the MoC would exact a terrible cost, but Dean was too driven to listen to potential consequences at the time. He may regret his rash behavior if the price the the has to pay is in fact Sam's death by his own hand. That could be a very interesting turn of events. I'm not saying that I want Sam to be killed by Dean, far from it, I want Sam to SAVE Dean. JC seems to re-visiting old issues from the brothers past. Sam has been grappling with his greatest fear, which is the loss of Dean's trust and his feelings that he will always let Dean down, that he is a burden. Dean's greatest fear has always been that he won't be able to save Sam or even worse that the final words of his father "you have to save Sam, nothing else matters, if you can't save him you'll have to kill him" will end up coming true. I desperately want Sam to end up saving Dean this season (from the MoC, from himself) and I want him to do it WITHOUT resorting to making shady supernatural deals and putting the world at risk to do so. I want Dean to know what if feels like to loose all sense of himself, to be at the mercy of a fate that does not allow him to choose for himself, to see himself forced against his will to do terrible things, to be forced to hill his brother and not be able to stop it, and then I want Sam to save Dean from that. Sam now knows what its like to feel let down by his brother (something that Dean has felt about Sam many, many times, but that Sam has almost never felt about Dean until this season) and now I want Dean to understand what it means to have all control over your life taken from you and what that feels like. A mile in each other's shoes so to speak will go a long way to bridge the gap that separates their understanding of one another. Sam is currently walking in Dean's shoes, now its time for Dean to walk in Sam's.
E
# E 2014-02-08 22:11
Quote:
I don't think that anyone has raised this issue from what I've seen. I also put this comment up on IMDb in the Sam Squad.

No one has noticed that the mark of Cain on Dean's arm could be responsible for this whole sham. Remember 'Sex and Violence' with the Siren. He controlled the boys. The mark of Cain mark disrupts family life and isolates the bearer. This year something Supernatural could be getting between the boys and controlling them and their thoughts. Sam never even questioned that mark, maybe because he's also been infected. Cas could be the one to get them out of this wired spot? Something to think about anyway. I am loving the comments.
Hi Bella-UK. This is a good point, and one that I actually didn't think about on my own, silly me! The MoC could indeed be affecting Dean's behavior somewhat. It wouldn't account for all of Dean's actions this season certainly, but maybe it is just beginning to affect how he is processing this latest set of events between he and Sam. Sam could be infected too; maybe the MoC causes strife between brothers? That would stand to reason after all. Maybe Dean accepting the mark will cause him to slowly begin to want or feel compelled to kill Sam and Sam will have to figure out how to save Dean from what would surely be Dean's total and complete undoing. Cain did say to Dean that wearing the MoC would exact a terrible cost, but Dean was too driven to listen to potential consequences at the time. He may regret his rash behavior if the price the the has to pay is in fact Sam's death by his own hand. That could be a very interesting turn of events. I'm not saying that I want Sam to be killed by Dean, far from it, I want Sam to SAVE Dean. JC seems to re-visiting old issues from the brothers past. Sam has been grappling with his greatest fear, which is the loss of Dean's trust and his feelings that he will always let Dean down, that he is a burden. Dean's greatest fear has always been that he won't be able to save Sam or even worse that the final words of his father "you have to save Sam, nothing else matters, if you can't save him you'll have to kill him" will end up coming true. I desperately want Sam to end up saving Dean this season (from the MoC, from himself) and I want him to do it WITHOUT resorting to making shady supernatural deals and putting the world at risk to do so. I want Dean to know what if feels like to loose all sense of himself, to be at the mercy of a fate that does not allow him to choose for himself, to see himself forced against his will to do terrible things, to be forced to hill his brother and not be able to stop it, and then I want Sam to save Dean from that. Sam now knows what its like to feel let down by his brother (something that Dean has felt about Sam many, many times, but that Sam has almost never felt about Dean until this season) and now I want Dean to understand what it means to have all control over your life taken from you and what that feels like. A mile in each other's shoes so to speak will go a long way to bridge the gap that separates their understanding of one another. Sam is currently walking in Dean's shoes, now its time for Dean to walk in Sam's.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 04:10
Quoting nappi815:
i think coddling dean right now is the worst thing for him.
...
dean has been living for months with guilt and fear.
he's lying to his brother, he's lying to cas, he's lying to kevin. he's isolated himself in a world of pain and deceit.
...
if sam doesn't get through to dean in a way that will make him understand that these extreme measures he takes to save sam only lead to pain for dean, sam and others as well, then dean will never end the cycle and it will eventually destroy him.


Agreed, Sam does need to get through to Dean somehow, for everyone's sake. But sadly he's not a trained psychologist, and he's definitely not objective since he just found out about the possession and all the lies. Psychologists reckon it takes 6 months for people to sort out trauma in your mind, before you know exactly what you think about it all logically (sorry, forgotten the source here, but it tallies with my experience and it's not like this is a scientific debate). So you can't expect it to go smoothly.

And it isn't about whether Sam wanted to live or die. It's about HOW Dean saved him in the hospital. Quote from transcript (http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.01_I_Think_I%27m_Gonna_Like_It_Here_(transcript):

"DEAN
No, it's Sam's call. There's no way in hell he'd say yes to being possessed by anything.

EZEKIEL
He would rather die.

DEAN nods ruefully."

I'm also baffled as to why people are pulling apart Sam's arguments for their logic.

Sam just found out 2-3 weeks ago that:
- Dean tricked him into something that Dean knew he would rather die than accept
- he was possessed for MONTHS, with his brother's blessing, no less
- his body killed Kevin and 2 angels
- his brother was lying to him about something so massive and related to Sam's personhood
- he wasn't in fact going mad again, despite memory loss and lost time
- despite everything that happened Dean said HE'D DO IT AGAIN

That's an awful lot to process and you can't expect him to made perfect sense right now. It doesn't make him a bad person.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 04:10
Quote:
i think coddling dean right now is the worst thing for him.
...
dean has been living for months with guilt and fear.
he's lying to his brother, he's lying to cas, he's lying to kevin. he's isolated himself in a world of pain and deceit.
...
if sam doesn't get through to dean in a way that will make him understand that these extreme measures he takes to save sam only lead to pain for dean, sam and others as well, then dean will never end the cycle and it will eventually destroy him.
Agreed, Sam does need to get through to Dean somehow, for everyone's sake. But sadly he's not a trained psychologist, and he's definitely not objective since he just found out about the possession and all the lies. Psychologists reckon it takes 6 months for people to sort out trauma in your mind, before you know exactly what you think about it all logically (sorry, forgotten the source here, but it tallies with my experience and it's not like this is a scientific debate). So you can't expect it to go smoothly.

And it isn't about whether Sam wanted to live or die. It's about HOW Dean saved him in the hospital. Quote from transcript (http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.01_I_Think_I%27m_Gonna_Like_It_Here_(transcript):

"DEAN
No, it's Sam's call. There's no way in hell he'd say yes to being possessed by anything.

EZEKIEL
He would rather die.

DEAN nods ruefully."

I'm also baffled as to why people are pulling apart Sam's arguments for their logic.

Sam just found out 2-3 weeks ago that:
- Dean tricked him into something that Dean knew he would rather die than accept
- he was possessed for MONTHS, with his brother's blessing, no less
- his body killed Kevin and 2 angels
- his brother was lying to him about something so massive and related to Sam's personhood
- he wasn't in fact going mad again, despite memory loss and lost time
- despite everything that happened Dean said HE'D DO IT AGAIN

That's an awful lot to process and you can't expect him to made perfect sense right now. It doesn't make him a bad person.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 05:26
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Quoting nappi815:
i think coddling dean right now is the worst thing for him.
...
dean has been living for months with guilt and fear.
he's lying to his brother, he's lying to cas, he's lying to kevin. he's isolated himself in a world of pain and deceit.
...
if sam doesn't get through to dean in a way that will make him understand that these extreme measures he takes to save sam only lead to pain for dean, sam and others as well, then dean will never end the cycle and it will eventually destroy him.


Agreed, Sam does need to get through to Dean somehow, for everyone's sake. But sadly he's not a trained psychologist, and he's definitely not objective since he just found out about the possession and all the lies. Psychologists reckon it takes 6 months for people to sort out trauma in your mind, before you know exactly what you think about it all logically (sorry, forgotten the source here, but it tallies with my experience and it's not like this is a scientific debate). So you can't expect it to go smoothly.

And it isn't about whether Sam wanted to live or die. It's about HOW Dean saved him in the hospital. Quote from transcript (http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.01_I_Think_I%27m_Gonna_Like_It_Here_(transcript):

"DEAN
No, it's Sam's call. There's no way in hell he'd say yes to being possessed by anything.

EZEKIEL
He would rather die.

DEAN nods ruefully."

I'm also baffled as to why people are pulling apart Sam's arguments for their logic.

Sam just found out 2-3 weeks ago that:
- Dean tricked him into something that Dean knew he would rather die than accept
- he was possessed for MONTHS, with his brother's blessing, no less
- his body killed Kevin and 2 angels
- his brother was lying to him about something so massive and related to Sam's personhood
- he wasn't in fact going mad again, despite memory loss and lost time
- despite everything that happened Dean said HE'D DO IT AGAIN

That's an awful lot to process and you can't expect him to made perfect sense right now. It doesn't make him a bad person.

Exactly but this is what people themselves are not processing . I have said that I do not feel Sam has done anything wrong in this situation that was not of his making.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 05:26
Quote:
Quote:
i think coddling dean right now is the worst thing for him.
...
dean has been living for months with guilt and fear.
he's lying to his brother, he's lying to cas, he's lying to kevin. he's isolated himself in a world of pain and deceit.
...
if sam doesn't get through to dean in a way that will make him understand that these extreme measures he takes to save sam only lead to pain for dean, sam and others as well, then dean will never end the cycle and it will eventually destroy him.
Agreed, Sam does need to get through to Dean somehow, for everyone's sake. But sadly he's not a trained psychologist, and he's definitely not objective since he just found out about the possession and all the lies. Psychologists reckon it takes 6 months for people to sort out trauma in your mind, before you know exactly what you think about it all logically (sorry, forgotten the source here, but it tallies with my experience and it's not like this is a scientific debate). So you can't expect it to go smoothly.

And it isn't about whether Sam wanted to live or die. It's about HOW Dean saved him in the hospital. Quote from transcript (http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.01_I_Think_I%27m_Gonna_Like_It_Here_(transcript):

"DEAN
No, it's Sam's call. There's no way in hell he'd say yes to being possessed by anything.

EZEKIEL
He would rather die.

DEAN nods ruefully."

I'm also baffled as to why people are pulling apart Sam's arguments for their logic.

Sam just found out 2-3 weeks ago that:
- Dean tricked him into something that Dean knew he would rather die than accept
- he was possessed for MONTHS, with his brother's blessing, no less
- his body killed Kevin and 2 angels
- his brother was lying to him about something so massive and related to Sam's personhood
- he wasn't in fact going mad again, despite memory loss and lost time
- despite everything that happened Dean said HE'D DO IT AGAIN

That's an awful lot to process and you can't expect him to made perfect sense right now. It doesn't make him a bad person.
Exactly but this is what people themselves are not processing . I have said that I do not feel Sam has done anything wrong in this situation that was not of his making.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-09 07:41
the way i see it.

dean loves sam enough to be willing to travel down that road to self destruction, collateral damage be damned.

sam loves dean enough to want to stop it. dean's been through it before. sam's been through it before. sam doesn't want it to happen all over again.


you know i get that knowing what dean knows, given the choice, sam dead...kevin dead...of course he's going to choose sam. but here lies the problem. it's one thing knowing your brother was ready to, accepted the hand dealt to him, and wanted to ensure that nobody ever gets hurt again because of him, so he stays gone. losing your brother that way is painful beyond all end. dean would've grieved . i'm not sure if he would've kept hunting, or if he would've quit. i'd like to believe that dean would've kept going at the very least as an mol for sam.

but dean saving sam in these circumstances caused pain and hurt for sam, a broken trust, and a death of someone who dean cared very much about. kevin's death as opposed to sam's death will weigh much heavier on dean in that kevin died because dean feels he wasn't there for him. he didn't protect him. he died at the hands of the very angel dean had possess sam. with kevin's death, dean carries the burden of guilt, the need for revenge that will most likely never be fix dean even if he does kill gadreel. the way kevin died, that will lead dean on the path of self destruction. dean's personality, his feeling of responsibility, his belief that everything that ever went wrong is his fault will all be compounded and he won't ever forgive himself and in the end it could lead to his death. his path to sacrifice as the only way to atone. then sam is alone and grieving for dean.

round and round these boys go. i truly believe that when dean told sam that he would do it all again. that he was ok with the prospect of kevin dying, i believe that alarm bells went off in sam's head. sam knows right where dean is heading and it wasn't until after dean said what he said that sam questioned dean's motives and then told him he wouldn't do things the same.

sometimes when you love someone and you want to stop them from destroying themselves you do or say whatever it takes to try to get through to them.

so not only was sam angry when he posed the question. of course he's angry. he's angry at what dean did and now he's angry at him for actually be willing to do it all again....angry that dean is ok with not only causing pain and hurt on sam, but angry that dean is so willing to yet again travel that road to his self destruction.

i agree sharon, i don't think sam did anything wrong either. i think he's trying to fix what's wrong. ;-)

nice post tim...i was wondering when you'd show up :D you make a valid point too that i don't think dean has really considered and sam may have...

sam told dean: kevin is dead, crowley is in the wind, they were no closer to fixing this angel thing, tell me what is the upside in my being alive.

dean's response wasn't : sam you're my brother and i love you. his response wasn't sam this world would suffer without you in it. you save lives you hunt evil you care more than anyone i know. dean's response was that they'd be together to hunt the good fight. dean's response made it about him, not about sam. is it really so hard to understand why sam is questioning dean's actions and why he's wondering if what dean said at the church is something he truly meant..

it's all very complicated
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-09 07:41
the way i see it.

dean loves sam enough to be willing to travel down that road to self destruction, collateral damage be damned.

sam loves dean enough to want to stop it. dean's been through it before. sam's been through it before. sam doesn't want it to happen all over again.


you know i get that knowing what dean knows, given the choice, sam dead...kevin dead...of course he's going to choose sam. but here lies the problem. it's one thing knowing your brother was ready to, accepted the hand dealt to him, and wanted to ensure that nobody ever gets hurt again because of him, so he stays gone. losing your brother that way is painful beyond all end. dean would've grieved . i'm not sure if he would've kept hunting, or if he would've quit. i'd like to believe that dean would've kept going at the very least as an mol for sam.

but dean saving sam in these circumstances caused pain and hurt for sam, a broken trust, and a death of someone who dean cared very much about. kevin's death as opposed to sam's death will weigh much heavier on dean in that kevin died because dean feels he wasn't there for him. he didn't protect him. he died at the hands of the very angel dean had possess sam. with kevin's death, dean carries the burden of guilt, the need for revenge that will most likely never be fix dean even if he does kill gadreel. the way kevin died, that will lead dean on the path of self destruction. dean's personality, his feeling of responsibility, his belief that everything that ever went wrong is his fault will all be compounded and he won't ever forgive himself and in the end it could lead to his death. his path to sacrifice as the only way to atone. then sam is alone and grieving for dean.

round and round these boys go. i truly believe that when dean told sam that he would do it all again. that he was ok with the prospect of kevin dying, i believe that alarm bells went off in sam's head. sam knows right where dean is heading and it wasn't until after dean said what he said that sam questioned dean's motives and then told him he wouldn't do things the same.

sometimes when you love someone and you want to stop them from destroying themselves you do or say whatever it takes to try to get through to them.

so not only was sam angry when he posed the question. of course he's angry. he's angry at what dean did and now he's angry at him for actually be willing to do it all again....angry that dean is ok with not only causing pain and hurt on sam, but angry that dean is so willing to yet again travel that road to his self destruction.

i agree sharon, i don't think sam did anything wrong either. i think he's trying to fix what's wrong. ;-)

nice post tim...i was wondering when you'd show up :D you make a valid point too that i don't think dean has really considered and sam may have...

sam told dean: kevin is dead, crowley is in the wind, they were no closer to fixing this angel thing, tell me what is the upside in my being alive.

dean's response wasn't : sam you're my brother and i love you. his response wasn't sam this world would suffer without you in it. you save lives you hunt evil you care more than anyone i know. dean's response was that they'd be together to hunt the good fight. dean's response made it about him, not about sam. is it really so hard to understand why sam is questioning dean's actions and why he's wondering if what dean said at the church is something he truly meant..

it's all very complicated
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 08:14
Gerry - thank you for this review. I think this is one of the most balanced and honest reviews I have read. I applaud you for tackling all of what Sam said and not glossing over certain pieces of it.

I think Sam is right to be mad about Gadriel, but what he said in 9.13 was more than that and the way he viewed the brothers' relationship and placed fault for their issues solely at Dean's feet and the way he views Dean was not right and not truthful. Sam may have been truthful that he wouldn't save Dean, but he wasn't truthful in much else.

For me, based on nine seasons of the show, I don't think the primary reason Dean saved Sam because he's afraid to be alone, but rather because it has been ingrained in Dean since he was 4 years old that he had to protect Sam. That role has been reinforced over the years many times.

Regarding Sam's statements, Dean has done so much more good than harm, and Sam knows that, so for Sam to say that, I can only think that Sam said it to try and push Dean, maybe to hurt him. Also, Sam knows that Dean has sacrificed so much, for others and for Sam, and Dean has been hurt by these sacrifices, which we recently saw in the episode "Bad Boys" and again, Sam knows this, so for Sam to say these untrue things, I think he's pushing Dean and deliberately saying things he knows will hurt him. To what end though, I don't know. All I know is that those things, to me, are statements that I think are too harsh and may be unforgivable. He basically told Dean that Dean's life is a failure.

If Sam does truly view his brother the way he stated, then, I don't know why they are hunting together. i think for both of their sakes, they need to separate. Neither one can trust the other one and I don't think they like each other.

I hope in any kind of resolution, because we know the show will get them back together, that Dean gets to say things from his perspective. The issues in the relationship are not just Dean's fault, Sam has to shoulder responsibility for his part of the wrongs with it. It takes two and I hope the show will be balanced. Sam is just as to blame as Dean and Sam needs to change just as much as Dean. Only then can the relationship move forward.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 08:14
Gerry - thank you for this review. I think this is one of the most balanced and honest reviews I have read. I applaud you for tackling all of what Sam said and not glossing over certain pieces of it.

I think Sam is right to be mad about Gadriel, but what he said in 9.13 was more than that and the way he viewed the brothers' relationship and placed fault for their issues solely at Dean's feet and the way he views Dean was not right and not truthful. Sam may have been truthful that he wouldn't save Dean, but he wasn't truthful in much else.

For me, based on nine seasons of the show, I don't think the primary reason Dean saved Sam because he's afraid to be alone, but rather because it has been ingrained in Dean since he was 4 years old that he had to protect Sam. That role has been reinforced over the years many times.

Regarding Sam's statements, Dean has done so much more good than harm, and Sam knows that, so for Sam to say that, I can only think that Sam said it to try and push Dean, maybe to hurt him. Also, Sam knows that Dean has sacrificed so much, for others and for Sam, and Dean has been hurt by these sacrifices, which we recently saw in the episode "Bad Boys" and again, Sam knows this, so for Sam to say these untrue things, I think he's pushing Dean and deliberately saying things he knows will hurt him. To what end though, I don't know. All I know is that those things, to me, are statements that I think are too harsh and may be unforgivable. He basically told Dean that Dean's life is a failure.

If Sam does truly view his brother the way he stated, then, I don't know why they are hunting together. i think for both of their sakes, they need to separate. Neither one can trust the other one and I don't think they like each other.

I hope in any kind of resolution, because we know the show will get them back together, that Dean gets to say things from his perspective. The issues in the relationship are not just Dean's fault, Sam has to shoulder responsibility for his part of the wrongs with it. It takes two and I hope the show will be balanced. Sam is just as to blame as Dean and Sam needs to change just as much as Dean. Only then can the relationship move forward.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 08:48
I forgot to mention about completing the trials. I thought Castiel was right in 9.12 when he told Sam that the brothers "chose" each other in "Sacrifice," (8.23) meaning each brother made a choice, including Sam choosing not to complete the trials. Sam made that choice to not complete the trials, and he needs to accept that that is something he did.

I can't reconcile 8.23 and 9.13, they seem to contradict each other and the points they were trying to make. So, in 8.23, we were supposed to be happy about the brothers choosing each other, it was a good thing, but now, we're supposed to view it as a bad thing.

Personally, I think they made the right decision in 8.23 to not complete the trials because, based on what we learned about Metatron then, and since then, and how he can't be trusted and wasn't on the side of good, I don't know if completing the trials would actually accomplish what they thought.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 08:48
I forgot to mention about completing the trials. I thought Castiel was right in 9.12 when he told Sam that the brothers "chose" each other in "Sacrifice," (8.23) meaning each brother made a choice, including Sam choosing not to complete the trials. Sam made that choice to not complete the trials, and he needs to accept that that is something he did.

I can't reconcile 8.23 and 9.13, they seem to contradict each other and the points they were trying to make. So, in 8.23, we were supposed to be happy about the brothers choosing each other, it was a good thing, but now, we're supposed to view it as a bad thing.

Personally, I think they made the right decision in 8.23 to not complete the trials because, based on what we learned about Metatron then, and since then, and how he can't be trusted and wasn't on the side of good, I don't know if completing the trials would actually accomplish what they thought.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 09:43
Quoting Shelby:

Sam may have been truthful that he wouldn't save Dean, but he wasn't truthful in much else.


To reiterate since it seems necessary, Sam said he wouldn't save Dean IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES, not that he wouldn't save Dean. Sam would not go against Dean's wishes to save him. In S3, when Dean laid down rules about HOW Sam could try and save him from the Crossroads Deal, Sam respected those limits. That is not a lack of love but a show of respect for Dean's rights and autonomy.

Quoting Shelby:

For me, based on nine seasons of the show, I don't think the primary reason Dean saved Sam because he's afraid to be alone, but rather because it has been ingrained in Dean since he was 4 years old that he had to protect Sam. That role has been reinforced over the years many times.


I think this is irrelevant. Dean should not be going against Sam's wishes, regardless of why he does it. Sam is an autonomous person with rights and Dean KNEW he would rather die than be possessed AGAIN.

When both brothers are angry and hurt they say harsh things. That's just human nature. At least Sam isn't calling Dean a monster.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 09:43
Quote:

Sam may have been truthful that he wouldn't save Dean, but he wasn't truthful in much else.
To reiterate since it seems necessary, Sam said he wouldn't save Dean IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES, not that he wouldn't save Dean. Sam would not go against Dean's wishes to save him. In S3, when Dean laid down rules about HOW Sam could try and save him from the Crossroads Deal, Sam respected those limits. That is not a lack of love but a show of respect for Dean's rights and autonomy.

Quote:

For me, based on nine seasons of the show, I don't think the primary reason Dean saved Sam because he's afraid to be alone, but rather because it has been ingrained in Dean since he was 4 years old that he had to protect Sam. That role has been reinforced over the years many times.
I think this is irrelevant. Dean should not be going against Sam's wishes, regardless of why he does it. Sam is an autonomous person with rights and Dean KNEW he would rather die than be possessed AGAIN.

When both brothers are angry and hurt they say harsh things. That's just human nature. At least Sam isn't calling Dean a monster.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 09:49
@87 - when I said Sam wasn't truthful in much else, I was NOT referring to the part you quoted, that is the part I said he was truthful about.

As far as Dean's reasons, yes, I do think it is relevant because of what Sam said. If the brothers want to fix the realtionship they need to address the issues, both of their issues, but they need to address the correct issues. I think the being alone is not the correct issue.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 09:49
@87 - when I said Sam wasn't truthful in much else, I was NOT referring to the part you quoted, that is the part I said he was truthful about.

As far as Dean's reasons, yes, I do think it is relevant because of what Sam said. If the brothers want to fix the realtionship they need to address the issues, both of their issues, but they need to address the correct issues. I think the being alone is not the correct issue.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 10:07
Quoting Shelby:
@87 - when I said Sam wasn't truthful in much else, I was NOT referring to the part you quoted, that is the part I said he was truthful about.

As far as Dean's reasons, yes, I do think it is relevant because of what Sam said. If the brothers want to fix the realtionship they need to address the issues, both of their issues, but they need to address the correct issues. I think the being alone is not the correct issue.

Is it not ? I think it very much part of the ongoing problem. Certainly the issue's raised from this need addressing from both sides.

But the bottom line is which either way it is presented and what issues people think were involved Dean violated Sam's autonomy and then said he would do it again .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 10:07
Quote:
@87 - when I said Sam wasn't truthful in much else, I was NOT referring to the part you quoted, that is the part I said he was truthful about.

As far as Dean's reasons, yes, I do think it is relevant because of what Sam said. If the brothers want to fix the realtionship they need to address the issues, both of their issues, but they need to address the correct issues. I think the being alone is not the correct issue.
Is it not ? I think it very much part of the ongoing problem. Certainly the issue's raised from this need addressing from both sides.

But the bottom line is which either way it is presented and what issues people think were involved Dean violated Sam's autonomy and then said he would do it again .
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 10:33
I hope we see the relationship issues discussed further, and a more balanced look, not just Sam's view of Dean. I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show ill fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 10:33
I hope we see the relationship issues discussed further, and a more balanced look, not just Sam's view of Dean. I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show ill fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 10:54
Quoting Shelby:
I hope we see the relationship issues discussed further, and a more balanced look, not just Sam's view of Dean. I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show ill fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.

Yes when it is done right and Sam gets the pov Dean does get otherwise there is no point .
Not the victim blaming , or saying he was too harsh when he does say something that has been going on within the fandom.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 10:54
Quote:
I hope we see the relationship issues discussed further, and a more balanced look, not just Sam's view of Dean. I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show ill fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.
Yes when it is done right and Sam gets the pov Dean does get otherwise there is no point .
Not the victim blaming , or saying he was too harsh when he does say something that has been going on within the fandom.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 10:58
I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show will fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 10:58
I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show will fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:24
Quoting Shelby:
@87 - when I said Sam wasn't truthful in much else, I was NOT referring to the part you quoted, that is the part I said he was truthful about.


I think you misunderstand me. I was just highlighting that you said you thought Sam was telling the truth when he said he wouldn't save Dean. It just concerns me that this is being taken out of context. Sam never said he wouldn't save Dean, he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same circumstances (ie Sam wouldn't override Dean's wishes and subject him to his worse horror).
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:24
Quote:
@87 - when I said Sam wasn't truthful in much else, I was NOT referring to the part you quoted, that is the part I said he was truthful about.
I think you misunderstand me. I was just highlighting that you said you thought Sam was telling the truth when he said he wouldn't save Dean. It just concerns me that this is being taken out of context. Sam never said he wouldn't save Dean, he said he wouldn't save Dean in the same circumstances (ie Sam wouldn't override Dean's wishes and subject him to his worse horror).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 11:26
Quoting Shelby:
I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show will fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.

Actually Dean has..The one where he blames Sam for even soulless Sam.That was just one conversation where Dean purged.Now it is Sam's turn.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 11:26
Quote:
I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show will fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.
Actually Dean has..The one where he blames Sam for even soulless Sam.That was just one conversation where Dean purged.Now it is Sam's turn.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 11:31
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 11:31
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 11:53
Quoting Shelby:
I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show will fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.

The breakdown now is down to Dean not Sam . It is not Sam's behaviour that has caused the issues now it was Dean's .Dean did not think he did anything wrong.

Sam was expected to earn Dean's trust back in season 5 because of what he did and it did it took Sam along time . Now it is down to Dean to earn Sam's trust back and then the relationship can start finding a footing. But there is no onus on Sam at the moment esp when Dean told him he would do it again .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 11:53
Quote:
I hope we see where Dean gets to purge like Sam has purged. Everything, including all skewed views, like this was, need to be aired. There are other issues that have been causing problems in the relationship, including Sam's role, just like Dean's role is being addressed, we need Sam's role and responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship to be addressed. I honestly don't know how the show will fix the relationship because I think they've destroyed it at this point.
The breakdown now is down to Dean not Sam . It is not Sam's behaviour that has caused the issues now it was Dean's .Dean did not think he did anything wrong.

Sam was expected to earn Dean's trust back in season 5 because of what he did and it did it took Sam along time . Now it is down to Dean to earn Sam's trust back and then the relationship can start finding a footing. But there is no onus on Sam at the moment esp when Dean told him he would do it again .
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:53
Quoting Shelby:

The issues in the relationship are not just Dean's fault, Sam has to shoulder responsibility for his part of the wrongs with it. It takes two and I hope the show will be balanced. Sam is just as to blame as Dean and Sam needs to change just as much as Dean. Only then can the relationship move forward.


OK I agree, they both need to be willing to address the general problems in the relationship. But many people are ignoring Dean's very recent and incredibly major transgression. Dean IS to blame for the the biggest problem between the boys RIGHT NOW. So if the writers choose to concentrate on Sam's anger for a few episodes that is perfectly reasonable.

In S5, when Sam had been the one in the wrong, Dean was shown as being angry with Sam for a whole season and said some really harsh and untrue things. Now, in S9, Dean is in the wrong and apparently Sam is not allowed to be angry or harsh for three episodes? Sorry, but that's not a balanced view.

Like you, I'd like to see the brothers move towards a healthier relationship. But saying they are both equally to blame for the problems RIGHT NOW is not accurate.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:53
Quote:

The issues in the relationship are not just Dean's fault, Sam has to shoulder responsibility for his part of the wrongs with it. It takes two and I hope the show will be balanced. Sam is just as to blame as Dean and Sam needs to change just as much as Dean. Only then can the relationship move forward.
OK I agree, they both need to be willing to address the general problems in the relationship. But many people are ignoring Dean's very recent and incredibly major transgression. Dean IS to blame for the the biggest problem between the boys RIGHT NOW. So if the writers choose to concentrate on Sam's anger for a few episodes that is perfectly reasonable.

In S5, when Sam had been the one in the wrong, Dean was shown as being angry with Sam for a whole season and said some really harsh and untrue things. Now, in S9, Dean is in the wrong and apparently Sam is not allowed to be angry or harsh for three episodes? Sorry, but that's not a balanced view.

Like you, I'd like to see the brothers move towards a healthier relationship. But saying they are both equally to blame for the problems RIGHT NOW is not accurate.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 11:54
Quoting Shelby:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.

The influences where different kind.I am not muddying anything.Dr Ellicot amplified the feelings that was his MO whereas the supernatural being in Dean's case did not influence Dean in this way.It just removed Dean's brakes rather than amplify his feelings.Those were feeling Dean had and it let Dean tell only the hurtful ones.it did not create those feelings.Genera lizing things like you are doing is muddying the waters.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 11:54
Quote:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.
The influences where different kind.I am not muddying anything.Dr Ellicot amplified the feelings that was his MO whereas the supernatural being in Dean's case did not influence Dean in this way.It just removed Dean's brakes rather than amplify his feelings.Those were feeling Dean had and it let Dean tell only the hurtful ones.it did not create those feelings.Genera lizing things like you are doing is muddying the waters.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:58
Quoting Shelby:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count.


Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that in SC. He said it again under no external influence in Sacrifice (check the transcript if you don't believe me http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=8.23_Sacrifice_(transcript) ). At first I thought it was writer error, but now I'm thinking it was a deliberate character choice on the part of the showrunner.

So you argue Sam's being unfair right now. Dean can be irrational and unfair too, and didn't have the excuse of Sam having tricked him into being possessed.

I don't want to rag on Dean. I'm simply pointing out that human nature is not 100% rational. Sorry.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:58
Quote:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count.
Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that in SC. He said it again under no external influence in Sacrifice (check the transcript if you don't believe me http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=8.23_Sacrifice_(transcript) ). At first I thought it was writer error, but now I'm thinking it was a deliberate character choice on the part of the showrunner.

So you argue Sam's being unfair right now. Dean can be irrational and unfair too, and didn't have the excuse of Sam having tricked him into being possessed.

I don't want to rag on Dean. I'm simply pointing out that human nature is not 100% rational. Sorry.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:59
Hey Sharon, different words, same message :D
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-09 11:59
Hey Sharon, different words, same message :D
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 12:33
Quoting Manzanita Crow:

OK I agree, they both need to be willing to address the general problems in the relationship.


Quoting Manzanita Crow:

Like you, I'd like to see the brothers move towards a healthier relationship.


The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame. This is about the relationship in general, both past and current (I think the relationship has been on a downslide since season 4 and the show has never really addressed all the issues on both sides) and what each brother needs to do to change to fix it to rebuild for the future.

@Manzanita - it's been lovely chatting with you, but I must pull out of further conversation and do some actual work. We can agree to disagree, Miles vary, and all those sort of phrases. :-)

Gerry - Again, thank you for a well thought out and written review. Welcome to the board! I don't always post here, but I will read your reviews from now on.
Shelby
# Shelby 2014-02-09 12:33
Quote:

OK I agree, they both need to be willing to address the general problems in the relationship.
Quote:

Like you, I'd like to see the brothers move towards a healthier relationship.
The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame. This is about the relationship in general, both past and current (I think the relationship has been on a downslide since season 4 and the show has never really addressed all the issues on both sides) and what each brother needs to do to change to fix it to rebuild for the future.

@Manzanita - it's been lovely chatting with you, but I must pull out of further conversation and do some actual work. We can agree to disagree, Miles vary, and all those sort of phrases. :-)

Gerry - Again, thank you for a well thought out and written review. Welcome to the board! I don't always post here, but I will read your reviews from now on.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 12:48
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
Hey Sharon, different words, same message :D

I know saw your post as I just published mine :lol:
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-09 12:48
Quote:
Hey Sharon, different words, same message :D
I know saw your post as I just published mine :lol:
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-09 13:19
Quoting percysowner:
Quoting Shelby:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.


Here is Dean's speech to Sam, with my annotations in italics

All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, (something Sam did wrong and should confess to) killing Lilith (something they BOTH thought was a good idea at the time), letting Lucifer out (because breaking the first seal should never ever count God Forbid Dean admit to something he actually did), losing your soul,
not looking for me when I went to Purgatory (I don't agree, but I have no trouble with Dean bringing this one up).

And the last one Or, hey, h-how about what you did to, uh, Penny Markle in the sixth grade? Why don't you lead with that?
[SAM turns to look at DEAN.]
SAM Well, that was you. (Dean wants SAM to repent for DEAN'S actions because, hey if he can make Sam feel worse he should go for it.)

So what supernatural influence was making Dean say all of this?

Dean was very truthful about everything except maybe telling sam when he remembered hell and then he did end up telling sam everything about hell. And I think in first eps season 5 he said in the hotel room about WE did this so we clean it up so I am guessing him being first seal breaker he was also saying they both had a hand in letting Lucifer free little did they know the angels wanted it that way. But sam always reacts like its just him dean is talking about same with fallen idol automatically he thinks dean and bobby are talking him heck for all he knew dean could been talking about himself starting it all. and I know writers want to fix this now but its like I agree they should be separated not living in same house or driving in same car. I would rather they see each other separately on cases. I think they should walk in each others shoes or let sam know what his life would have been like had dean not been there. But the way the writers are writing sam should be mad yes but he is not expressing himself well he should be accountable for what was said in the church he did say yes now unless he forgot that but again I think bad writing. I think yes he should be mad at dean for the whole possession and lying things but to say that he would not save him I mean its like twisting the knife and I think fans are sympathetic towards dean right now because of sam words I mean demons knew how to break dean by saying those things and here is his own brother saying exactly what they said that the family does not need him like he needs them. sorry jmo and Gerry great review enjoy reading reviews and seeing everyones opinions I am just curious after this and how they can work together but knowing dean he will take sam anyway he can just as long as they are working together.
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2014-02-09 13:19
Quote:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.
Here is Dean's speech to Sam, with my annotations in italics

All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, (something Sam did wrong and should confess to) killing Lilith (something they BOTH thought was a good idea at the time), letting Lucifer out (because breaking the first seal should never ever count God Forbid Dean admit to something he actually did), losing your soul,
not looking for me when I went to Purgatory (I don't agree, but I have no trouble with Dean bringing this one up).

And the last one Or, hey, h-how about what you did to, uh, Penny Markle in the sixth grade? Why don't you lead with that?
[SAM turns to look at DEAN.]
SAM Well, that was you. (Dean wants SAM to repent for DEAN'S actions because, hey if he can make Sam feel worse he should go for it.)

So what supernatural influence was making Dean say all of this?

Dean was very truthful about everything except maybe telling sam when he remembered hell and then he did end up telling sam everything about hell. And I think in first eps season 5 he said in the hotel room about WE did this so we clean it up so I am guessing him being first seal breaker he was also saying they both had a hand in letting Lucifer free little did they know the angels wanted it that way. But sam always reacts like its just him dean is talking about same with fallen idol automatically he thinks dean and bobby are talking him heck for all he knew dean could been talking about himself starting it all. and I know writers want to fix this now but its like I agree they should be separated not living in same house or driving in same car. I would rather they see each other separately on cases. I think they should walk in each others shoes or let sam know what his life would have been like had dean not been there. But the way the writers are writing sam should be mad yes but he is not expressing himself well he should be accountable for what was said in the church he did say yes now unless he forgot that but again I think bad writing. I think yes he should be mad at dean for the whole possession and lying things but to say that he would not save him I mean its like twisting the knife and I think fans are sympathetic towards dean right now because of sam words I mean demons knew how to break dean by saying those things and here is his own brother saying exactly what they said that the family does not need him like he needs them. sorry jmo and Gerry great review enjoy reading reviews and seeing everyones opinions I am just curious after this and how they can work together but knowing dean he will take sam anyway he can just as long as they are working together.
Helena
# Helena 2014-02-09 15:19
"The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame"

@Shelby, I agree. Even in season 5, the show didn't present Sam as being the only one at fault for the brothers' rift. Sam got the chance to give his POV in "Fallen Idols", leading Dean to recognize some of his culpability in what had happened. Dean got an earful from Bobby about the meaning of family and how he was wrong to not forgive Sam. After seeing a possible future where his rejection of Sam led to the end of the world, Dean reached out and reunited with his brother. And one of the main themes of "Swan Song" was how Dean finally recognized Sam as an adult and unconditionally backed his plan.

With that sort of canon history, I'd be very disappointed if the show now took the easy way out and dumped the whole mess on just Dean. Relationships aren't nearly that cut and dry. Of course the Gad situation is all on Dean but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more under the surface that needs to be addressed by 'both' brothers about their dynamics and how they relate to each other.
.
Helena
# Helena 2014-02-09 15:19
"The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame"

@Shelby, I agree. Even in season 5, the show didn't present Sam as being the only one at fault for the brothers' rift. Sam got the chance to give his POV in "Fallen Idols", leading Dean to recognize some of his culpability in what had happened. Dean got an earful from Bobby about the meaning of family and how he was wrong to not forgive Sam. After seeing a possible future where his rejection of Sam led to the end of the world, Dean reached out and reunited with his brother. And one of the main themes of "Swan Song" was how Dean finally recognized Sam as an adult and unconditionally backed his plan.

With that sort of canon history, I'd be very disappointed if the show now took the easy way out and dumped the whole mess on just Dean. Relationships aren't nearly that cut and dry. Of course the Gad situation is all on Dean but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more under the surface that needs to be addressed by 'both' brothers about their dynamics and how they relate to each other.
.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 15:27
Quoting suebsg9:
Quoting percysowner:
Quoting Shelby:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.


Here is Dean's speech to Sam, with my annotations in italics

All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, (something Sam did wrong and should confess to) killing Lilith (something they BOTH thought was a good idea at the time), letting Lucifer out (because breaking the first seal should never ever count God Forbid Dean admit to something he actually did), losing your soul,
not looking for me when I went to Purgatory (I don't agree, but I have no trouble with Dean bringing this one up).

And the last one Or, hey, h-how about what you did to, uh, Penny Markle in the sixth grade? Why don't you lead with that?
[SAM turns to look at DEAN.]
SAM Well, that was you. (Dean wants SAM to repent for DEAN'S actions because, hey if he can make Sam feel worse he should go for it.)

So what supernatural influence was making Dean say all of this?


Dean was very truthful about everything except maybe telling sam when he remembered hell and then he did end up telling sam everything about hell. And I think in first eps season 5 he said in the hotel room about WE did this so we clean it up so I am guessing him being first seal breaker he was also saying they both had a hand in letting Lucifer free little did they know the angels wanted it that way. But sam always reacts like its just him dean is talking about same with fallen idol automatically he thinks dean and bobby are talking him heck for all he knew dean could been talking about himself starting it all. and I know writers want to fix this now but its like I agree they should be separated not living in same house or driving in same car. I would rather they see each other separately on cases. I think they should walk in each others shoes or let sam know what his life would have been like had dean not been there. But the way the writers are writing sam should be mad yes but he is not expressing himself well he should be accountable for what was said in the church he did say yes now unless he forgot that but again I think bad writing. I think yes he should be mad at dean for the whole possession and lying things but to say that he would not save him I mean its like twisting the knife and I think fans are sympathetic towards dean right now because of sam words I mean demons knew how to break dean by saying those things and here is his own brother saying exactly what they said that the family does not need him like he needs them. sorry jmo and Gerry great review enjoy reading reviews and seeing everyones opinions I am just curious after this and how they can work together but knowing dean he will take sam anyway he can just as long as they are working together.
manipulation.The thing that they are showing very clDean was not always truthful.He could not see above his hurt after he came back from Hell or purgatory and only believed what he wanted to believe.For sam whose trust is shattered whatever Dean said in the church was not truth but a way to get Sam to agree with dean,which constitutes early is that Sam has lost his trust on dean after Dean's abhorrent actions and normally when people lose trust after such a fundamental violation by the person they had trusted they can't trust the platitudes coming from them or which came from them.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 15:27
Quote:
@94 - Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity when he said that. I don't think that should count. Besides, if that counts then everything both of them have ever said and done under the influence, including the number of times Sam has tried to kill Dean, would count and I don't think we should muddy the waters and issues with those things.
Here is Dean's speech to Sam, with my annotations in italics

All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, (something Sam did wrong and should confess to) killing Lilith (something they BOTH thought was a good idea at the time), letting Lucifer out (because breaking the first seal should never ever count God Forbid Dean admit to something he actually did), losing your soul,
not looking for me when I went to Purgatory (I don't agree, but I have no trouble with Dean bringing this one up).

And the last one Or, hey, h-how about what you did to, uh, Penny Markle in the sixth grade? Why don't you lead with that?
[SAM turns to look at DEAN.]
SAM Well, that was you. (Dean wants SAM to repent for DEAN'S actions because, hey if he can make Sam feel worse he should go for it.)

So what supernatural influence was making Dean say all of this?

Dean was very truthful about everything except maybe telling sam when he remembered hell and then he did end up telling sam everything about hell. And I think in first eps season 5 he said in the hotel room about WE did this so we clean it up so I am guessing him being first seal breaker he was also saying they both had a hand in letting Lucifer free little did they know the angels wanted it that way. But sam always reacts like its just him dean is talking about same with fallen idol automatically he thinks dean and bobby are talking him heck for all he knew dean could been talking about himself starting it all. and I know writers want to fix this now but its like I agree they should be separated not living in same house or driving in same car. I would rather they see each other separately on cases. I think they should walk in each others shoes or let sam know what his life would have been like had dean not been there. But the way the writers are writing sam should be mad yes but he is not expressing himself well he should be accountable for what was said in the church he did say yes now unless he forgot that but again I think bad writing. I think yes he should be mad at dean for the whole possession and lying things but to say that he would not save him I mean its like twisting the knife and I think fans are sympathetic towards dean right now because of sam words I mean demons knew how to break dean by saying those things and here is his own brother saying exactly what they said that the family does not need him like he needs them. sorry jmo and Gerry great review enjoy reading reviews and seeing everyones opinions I am just curious after this and how they can work together but knowing dean he will take sam anyway he can just as long as they are working together.
manipulation.The thing that they are showing very clDean was not always truthful.He could not see above his hurt after he came back from Hell or purgatory and only believed what he wanted to believe.For sam whose trust is shattered whatever Dean said in the church was not truth but a way to get Sam to agree with dean,which constitutes early is that Sam has lost his trust on dean after Dean's abhorrent actions and normally when people lose trust after such a fundamental violation by the person they had trusted they can't trust the platitudes coming from them or which came from them.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 15:31
Quoting Helena:
"The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame"

@Shelby, I agree. Even in season 5, the show didn't present Sam as being the only one at fault for the brothers' rift. Sam got the chance to give his POV in "Fallen Idols", leading Dean to recognize some of his culpability in what had happened. Dean got an earful from Bobby about the meaning of family and how he was wrong to not forgive Sam. After seeing a possible future where his rejection of Sam led to the end of the world, Dean reached out and reunited with his brother. And one of the main themes of "Swan Song" was how Dean finally recognized Sam as an adult and unconditionally backed his plan.

With that sort of canon history, I'd be very disappointed if the show now took the easy way out and dumped the whole mess on just Dean. Relationships aren't nearly that cut and dry. Of course the Gad situation is all on Dean but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more under the surface that needs to be addressed by 'both' brothers about their dynamics and how they relate to each other.
.

And before that Dean was dismissive of Sam.That was fifth episode of Season 5.I think this is the first episode after Sam downloaded Gad's memories.Maybe after five episodes we will get Dean's POV(not that the first ten episodes where about Dean justifying his actions).If we get it (Dean's POV) early I will be disappointed in TPTB for loosing the balance in storytelling.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 15:31
Quote:
"The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame"

@Shelby, I agree. Even in season 5, the show didn't present Sam as being the only one at fault for the brothers' rift. Sam got the chance to give his POV in "Fallen Idols", leading Dean to recognize some of his culpability in what had happened. Dean got an earful from Bobby about the meaning of family and how he was wrong to not forgive Sam. After seeing a possible future where his rejection of Sam led to the end of the world, Dean reached out and reunited with his brother. And one of the main themes of "Swan Song" was how Dean finally recognized Sam as an adult and unconditionally backed his plan.

With that sort of canon history, I'd be very disappointed if the show now took the easy way out and dumped the whole mess on just Dean. Relationships aren't nearly that cut and dry. Of course the Gad situation is all on Dean but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more under the surface that needs to be addressed by 'both' brothers about their dynamics and how they relate to each other.
.
And before that Dean was dismissive of Sam.That was fifth episode of Season 5.I think this is the first episode after Sam downloaded Gad's memories.Maybe after five episodes we will get Dean's POV(not that the first ten episodes where about Dean justifying his actions).If we get it (Dean's POV) early I will be disappointed in TPTB for loosing the balance in storytelling.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-09 15:36
And yet in S5 AND in S8, it was Dean whom the writers eventually blamed for everything because he didn't understand Sam well enough, or accept Sam or love Sam enough(Kripke's words) and the big one-becasue he has to incessantly learn to "let Sam go"-while Sam now has nothing left to learn because he has done absolutely nothing wrong within the relationship up to this point-not even trying to look for Dean last season was apparently "right"; his part in what happened with Benny and Martin?-also apparently "right". And even now and after this last horrible scene, according to some here, Sam has STILL done absolutely nothing wrong. The problems in the brothers' overall relationship are all on Dean. So far. Again. And some more. Just like in S5 and just like last season. Yes, we got to hear Dean's list of his beefs with Sam-under the spectre's influence in SC(and which he likely doesn't even remember, according to the lore) and what he thought Sam should "confess" to in Sacrifice; then we got, respectively, after each of those episodes/scenes , Torn and Frayed where Dean apologized, but Sam didn't; then we got Sacrifice-which was Sam's rebuttal to the things Dean said that Sam should confess to and in which Sam never said he was sorry for anything-all he said was that he wanted to die because of all the times he felt that he'd let Dean down and because Dean had put his trust in a vampire and an angel before Sam.
I hope we will get some kind similar rebuttals this season from Dean-and especially after this last awful scene. And I hope that it will be the same kind of rebuttals that Sam was granted twice last season-meaning rebuttals that address Dean's deep and long buried feelings in a better manner than they've been addressed in the past. I have no problem with Dean admitting his transgressions as long as he's also allowed to voice his devastation at all the "extras" that Sam included in his purge of "honesty"(AKA "Sam's truth") at the end of this week's episode and again as Sam was afforded twice last season after never even trying to look for Dean, and after siccing CrazyMartin on Benny.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-09 15:36
And yet in S5 AND in S8, it was Dean whom the writers eventually blamed for everything because he didn't understand Sam well enough, or accept Sam or love Sam enough(Kripke's words) and the big one-becasue he has to incessantly learn to "let Sam go"-while Sam now has nothing left to learn because he has done absolutely nothing wrong within the relationship up to this point-not even trying to look for Dean last season was apparently "right"; his part in what happened with Benny and Martin?-also apparently "right". And even now and after this last horrible scene, according to some here, Sam has STILL done absolutely nothing wrong. The problems in the brothers' overall relationship are all on Dean. So far. Again. And some more. Just like in S5 and just like last season. Yes, we got to hear Dean's list of his beefs with Sam-under the spectre's influence in SC(and which he likely doesn't even remember, according to the lore) and what he thought Sam should "confess" to in Sacrifice; then we got, respectively, after each of those episodes/scenes , Torn and Frayed where Dean apologized, but Sam didn't; then we got Sacrifice-which was Sam's rebuttal to the things Dean said that Sam should confess to and in which Sam never said he was sorry for anything-all he said was that he wanted to die because of all the times he felt that he'd let Dean down and because Dean had put his trust in a vampire and an angel before Sam.
I hope we will get some kind similar rebuttals this season from Dean-and especially after this last awful scene. And I hope that it will be the same kind of rebuttals that Sam was granted twice last season-meaning rebuttals that address Dean's deep and long buried feelings in a better manner than they've been addressed in the past. I have no problem with Dean admitting his transgressions as long as he's also allowed to voice his devastation at all the "extras" that Sam included in his purge of "honesty"(AKA "Sam's truth") at the end of this week's episode and again as Sam was afforded twice last season after never even trying to look for Dean, and after siccing CrazyMartin on Benny.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 16:09
Quoting Shelby2:
And yet in S5 AND in S8, it was Dean whom the writers eventually blamed for everything because he didn't understand Sam well enough, or accept Sam or love Sam enough(Kripke's words) and the big one-becasue he has to incessantly learn to "let Sam go"-while Sam now has nothing left to learn because he has done absolutely nothing wrong within the relationship up to this point-not even trying to look for Dean last season was apparently "right"; his part in what happened with Benny and Martin?-also apparently "right". And even now and after this last horrible scene, according to some here, Sam has STILL done absolutely nothing wrong. The problems in the brothers' overall relationship are all on Dean. So far. Again. And some more. Just like in S5 and just like last season. Yes, we got to hear Dean's list of his beefs with Sam-under the spectre's influence in SC(and which he likely doesn't even remember, according to the lore) and what he thought Sam should "confess" to in Sacrifice; then we got, respectively, after each of those episodes/scenes, Torn and Frayed where Dean apologized, but Sam didn't; then we got Sacrifice-which was Sam's rebuttal to the things Dean said that Sam should confess to and in which Sam never said he was sorry for anything-all he said was that he wanted to die because of all the times he felt that he'd let Dean down and because Dean had put his trust in a vampire and an angel before Sam.
I hope we will get some kind similar rebuttals this season from Dean-and especially after this last awful scene. And I hope that it will be the same kind of rebuttals that Sam was granted twice last season-meaning rebuttals that address Dean's deep and long buried feelings in a better manner than they've been addressed in the past. I have no problem with Dean admitting his transgressions as long as he's also allowed to voice his devastation at all the "extras" that Sam included in his purge of "honesty"(AKA "Sam's truth") at the end of this week's episode and again as Sam was afforded twice last season after never even trying to look for Dean, and after siccing CrazyMartin on Benny.
No ,In S05 and S08 they did not.After continuously telling Sam his failures and mistakes in the fifth episode Sam told what was Dean's part in it.Just because Dean played a part Does not mean Sam did not have a part.Sam says so himself.As far as what Kripke said i don't follow interviews.If it is necessary they will show it on screen.The TPTB have been very hard on Sam through other characters raking up Sam's action even in season 9.If the show is still dicussing about Dean-gad debacle in season 12 then i will agree that TPPTB give Dean the same treatment that they have given Sam otherwise they will have been very much hard on Sam.In torn and frayed Dean apologised for his despicable phone call...Dean has still not proven that it was not Benny who did the killing.If Sam had gone behind Dean and killed benny then he should have apologised .But sam did not act like Dean and told dean about the situation which Dean could not refute convincingly.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-09 16:09
Quote:
And yet in S5 AND in S8, it was Dean whom the writers eventually blamed for everything because he didn't understand Sam well enough, or accept Sam or love Sam enough(Kripke's words) and the big one-becasue he has to incessantly learn to "let Sam go"-while Sam now has nothing left to learn because he has done absolutely nothing wrong within the relationship up to this point-not even trying to look for Dean last season was apparently "right"; his part in what happened with Benny and Martin?-also apparently "right". And even now and after this last horrible scene, according to some here, Sam has STILL done absolutely nothing wrong. The problems in the brothers' overall relationship are all on Dean. So far. Again. And some more. Just like in S5 and just like last season. Yes, we got to hear Dean's list of his beefs with Sam-under the spectre's influence in SC(and which he likely doesn't even remember, according to the lore) and what he thought Sam should "confess" to in Sacrifice; then we got, respectively, after each of those episodes/scenes, Torn and Frayed where Dean apologized, but Sam didn't; then we got Sacrifice-which was Sam's rebuttal to the things Dean said that Sam should confess to and in which Sam never said he was sorry for anything-all he said was that he wanted to die because of all the times he felt that he'd let Dean down and because Dean had put his trust in a vampire and an angel before Sam.
I hope we will get some kind similar rebuttals this season from Dean-and especially after this last awful scene. And I hope that it will be the same kind of rebuttals that Sam was granted twice last season-meaning rebuttals that address Dean's deep and long buried feelings in a better manner than they've been addressed in the past. I have no problem with Dean admitting his transgressions as long as he's also allowed to voice his devastation at all the "extras" that Sam included in his purge of "honesty"(AKA "Sam's truth") at the end of this week's episode and again as Sam was afforded twice last season after never even trying to look for Dean, and after siccing CrazyMartin on Benny.
No ,In S05 and S08 they did not.After continuously telling Sam his failures and mistakes in the fifth episode Sam told what was Dean's part in it.Just because Dean played a part Does not mean Sam did not have a part.Sam says so himself.As far as what Kripke said i don't follow interviews.If it is necessary they will show it on screen.The TPTB have been very hard on Sam through other characters raking up Sam's action even in season 9.If the show is still dicussing about Dean-gad debacle in season 12 then i will agree that TPPTB give Dean the same treatment that they have given Sam otherwise they will have been very much hard on Sam.In torn and frayed Dean apologised for his despicable phone call...Dean has still not proven that it was not Benny who did the killing.If Sam had gone behind Dean and killed benny then he should have apologised .But sam did not act like Dean and told dean about the situation which Dean could not refute convincingly.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-09 16:23
Quoting Helena:
"The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame"

@Shelby, I agree. Even in season 5, the show didn't present Sam as being the only one at fault for the brothers' rift. Sam got the chance to give his POV in "Fallen Idols", leading Dean to recognize some of his culpability in what had happened. Dean got an earful from Bobby about the meaning of family and how he was wrong to not forgive Sam. After seeing a possible future where his rejection of Sam led to the end of the world, Dean reached out and reunited with his brother. And one of the main themes of "Swan Song" was how Dean finally recognized Sam as an adult and unconditionally backed his plan.

With that sort of canon history, I'd be very disappointed if the show now took the easy way out and dumped the whole mess on just Dean. Relationships aren't nearly that cut and dry. Of course the Gad situation is all on Dean but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more under the surface that needs to be addressed by 'both' brothers about their dynamics and how they relate to each other.
.

This. This. A thousand times THIS! Hopefully this time...
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-09 16:23
Quote:
"The writer of 9.13 has stated that they are tearing down the relationship to rebuild. That is what I'm talking about when I say that it takes two and that there needs to be balance and not just Sam's view and how Dean it to blame, but we also need to address it all, which includes Dean's view and how Sam is to blame"

@Shelby, I agree. Even in season 5, the show didn't present Sam as being the only one at fault for the brothers' rift. Sam got the chance to give his POV in "Fallen Idols", leading Dean to recognize some of his culpability in what had happened. Dean got an earful from Bobby about the meaning of family and how he was wrong to not forgive Sam. After seeing a possible future where his rejection of Sam led to the end of the world, Dean reached out and reunited with his brother. And one of the main themes of "Swan Song" was how Dean finally recognized Sam as an adult and unconditionally backed his plan.

With that sort of canon history, I'd be very disappointed if the show now took the easy way out and dumped the whole mess on just Dean. Relationships aren't nearly that cut and dry. Of course the Gad situation is all on Dean but that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more under the surface that needs to be addressed by 'both' brothers about their dynamics and how they relate to each other.
.
This. This. A thousand times THIS! Hopefully this time...
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-09 17:22
Thanks for a nice review! It has sparked some good conversations and POV's.

I'd like to add my two cents too...I have had a hard time working through the complexities of these boys' POV's and honestly see both sides equally. I hurt for them both.
At the end of these past few episodes, the feeling has been akin to getting off a roller-coaster. Elated, nauseated, not wanting to do it again and yet realizing it was great. Complex and confusing. This latest one episode finally got some key words out into the arena that these two brothers have been needing to talk, namely selfishness. It’s no wonder that Sam thinks that Dean has saved him for his own good; after all these years of Dean insisting on not messing with the natural order, and leaving dead what is dead, Sam has watched his actions not match his little maxims. Because Dean has no rules to follow when it comes to saving Sam. It isn’t a secret and we all know why.
Let’s start at the look of complete confusion on Dean’s face when Sam calls Dean on his selfish reasons for saving him. “What are you talking about” was delivered with mix of incredibly shock and a twinge of horror at the idea and the prospect that Sam was about to explain it to him. It has NEVER crossed his mind that he was doing for anyone else except Sam.
Save Sam.
Period. John made it is primary role. Bobby reinforced it.
It’s encoded in his DNA.
It will never change.
I get Sam’s anger. I really do. I have been in his shoes before with an older sibling and I get it. He anger is valid, but I think he is too angry to see or care about where is Dean is coming from. He has heard Dean’s reasons, Dean’s insistence that he would do it again, that it was the right thing. I think Sam has finally said some things that need to get out on the table, but there was one line that I think he didn’t need to say, even if it was true from his point of view because he has to know that Dean is not taking anything very well. Can’t he see he is drinking and not sleeping again? Dean is on the path to self-destructio n again. Why would he add to that?
This one line that seemed most painful of all was Sam’s accusation that Dean is only too willing to sacrifice when he doesn’t have to be the one being hurt. As my younger sister pointed out, didn’t we just watch and episode about how Dean gave up his one shot at a normal life because of his obligation for Sam? Didn’t Dean go to hell to save Sam? Didn’t Dean put on Death’s ring to try to earn Sam’s soul back? It seemed below the belt, and yet I can see what Sam is saying. All the times he saved Sam, there were consequences that he didn’t consider, some person who got hurt in the process (Dean doesn’t think things all the way through). For starters, Sam was the one “hurt” but the demon deal. He had to watch Dean get dragged to hell and then be left alone. That was unfair to Sam, according to Sam. Sam told Dean when he was in the mental hospital having the final meltdown from his missing wall “you knew this would happen when you put my soul back in.” Sam is referring to the collateral that his life has cost, the people, like Kevin, who have been killed. I think.
Sam seems to just want all of it to stop. He seems broken to me, tired and sad. Part of him must wish he had died and gone on to some kind of place of peace. I’m sure he remembers that Bobby waiting for him on the other side with a cold one. He’s alone as much as Dean is right now. Last year he found what he had always wanted and what he would, honestly, still like to have. Amelia. He could find it again, and he knows it.
He also knows that Dean will only ever hunt. And he has repeatedly said he doesn’t want to do it alone “who does?” he asked Joe. Sam accuses Dean of only saving him for himself and Dean is visably baffled until Sam uses the word "selfish". Dean just scoffs and gets up from the table but not before rolling his eyes in disbelief. That is the only word Dean would never associate with his actions; He knows he is a lot of things, but selfish he has never been. In his mind. Yet, as Dean is reeling from the word, or even thought that anyone of his actions for his little brother having been done for himself, he realizes that he doesn’t have a comeback, or anything to say to prove otherwise.
Even if it isn’t true, what can he show in his defense that doesn’t look this way? Because honestly, it does seem that way… Even down to statement he’d made moments before “you and me, fighting the good fight together” proves opposite.

END PART I
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-09 17:22
Thanks for a nice review! It has sparked some good conversations and POV's.

I'd like to add my two cents too...I have had a hard time working through the complexities of these boys' POV's and honestly see both sides equally. I hurt for them both.
At the end of these past few episodes, the feeling has been akin to getting off a roller-coaster. Elated, nauseated, not wanting to do it again and yet realizing it was great. Complex and confusing. This latest one episode finally got some key words out into the arena that these two brothers have been needing to talk, namely selfishness. It’s no wonder that Sam thinks that Dean has saved him for his own good; after all these years of Dean insisting on not messing with the natural order, and leaving dead what is dead, Sam has watched his actions not match his little maxims. Because Dean has no rules to follow when it comes to saving Sam. It isn’t a secret and we all know why.
Let’s start at the look of complete confusion on Dean’s face when Sam calls Dean on his selfish reasons for saving him. “What are you talking about” was delivered with mix of incredibly shock and a twinge of horror at the idea and the prospect that Sam was about to explain it to him. It has NEVER crossed his mind that he was doing for anyone else except Sam.
Save Sam.
Period. John made it is primary role. Bobby reinforced it.
It’s encoded in his DNA.
It will never change.
I get Sam’s anger. I really do. I have been in his shoes before with an older sibling and I get it. He anger is valid, but I think he is too angry to see or care about where is Dean is coming from. He has heard Dean’s reasons, Dean’s insistence that he would do it again, that it was the right thing. I think Sam has finally said some things that need to get out on the table, but there was one line that I think he didn’t need to say, even if it was true from his point of view because he has to know that Dean is not taking anything very well. Can’t he see he is drinking and not sleeping again? Dean is on the path to self-destructio n again. Why would he add to that?
This one line that seemed most painful of all was Sam’s accusation that Dean is only too willing to sacrifice when he doesn’t have to be the one being hurt. As my younger sister pointed out, didn’t we just watch and episode about how Dean gave up his one shot at a normal life because of his obligation for Sam? Didn’t Dean go to hell to save Sam? Didn’t Dean put on Death’s ring to try to earn Sam’s soul back? It seemed below the belt, and yet I can see what Sam is saying. All the times he saved Sam, there were consequences that he didn’t consider, some person who got hurt in the process (Dean doesn’t think things all the way through). For starters, Sam was the one “hurt” but the demon deal. He had to watch Dean get dragged to hell and then be left alone. That was unfair to Sam, according to Sam. Sam told Dean when he was in the mental hospital having the final meltdown from his missing wall “you knew this would happen when you put my soul back in.” Sam is referring to the collateral that his life has cost, the people, like Kevin, who have been killed. I think.
Sam seems to just want all of it to stop. He seems broken to me, tired and sad. Part of him must wish he had died and gone on to some kind of place of peace. I’m sure he remembers that Bobby waiting for him on the other side with a cold one. He’s alone as much as Dean is right now. Last year he found what he had always wanted and what he would, honestly, still like to have. Amelia. He could find it again, and he knows it.
He also knows that Dean will only ever hunt. And he has repeatedly said he doesn’t want to do it alone “who does?” he asked Joe. Sam accuses Dean of only saving him for himself and Dean is visably baffled until Sam uses the word "selfish". Dean just scoffs and gets up from the table but not before rolling his eyes in disbelief. That is the only word Dean would never associate with his actions; He knows he is a lot of things, but selfish he has never been. In his mind. Yet, as Dean is reeling from the word, or even thought that anyone of his actions for his little brother having been done for himself, he realizes that he doesn’t have a comeback, or anything to say to prove otherwise.
Even if it isn’t true, what can he show in his defense that doesn’t look this way? Because honestly, it does seem that way… Even down to statement he’d made moments before “you and me, fighting the good fight together” proves opposite.

END PART I
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-09 17:25
PART II
So what does Dean do? He goes back to the one argument that has made his world make sense; family. It is the word that proves he isn't selfish. When you do things for family, you're doing the right thing. End of story.
Dad drilled it into him.
Bobby drilled it into him.
You do whatever it takes for Family.
In “In the beginning” episode, when Dean is trying to prevent the future from unfolding the way it did, Cas warned Dean that if he did change the future, all those people he saved would die. And Dean simply responds “they’re my parents”. There are no rules when it comes to family. Dean prevented Henry Winchester from going back to fix everything but since it meant that Sam might die, he forces Henry along for the ride. For Sam. Ironically, Henry got it. Family.
According to Dean, Family means doing whatever it takes. Family is always having your back. Family is forgiving and moving on because if you don’t have family, what do you have? It’s not so much that Dean can’t handle being alone, it’s that Dean can’t live without family. It is the stone he was chiseled out of. He recites it to himself, and he believes it. It’s the glue that holds him together. He did what he did for family. How is family selfish?
Need we mention that Sam's definition of family isn’t even in the same solar system as Dean's? We've known this for some time and yet we have always trusted (minus the soulless Sam drama) that he has always had Dean's back. That he would always be there for his older brother "I'd do anything for my big brother. (For the record, I believe this is still the case). But he didn’t get the crusts cut off his PB&J. He doesn’t want this kind family- he has always wanted a normal, safe family. Who can blame him.
Sam’s confession that he wouldn’t save Dean isn’t a shock to us. He didn’t even try to look for Dean when he vanished. ( I know Sam thought he was dead, but he’s a Winchester and knows better that when you “vanish” out of thin air, there is more to the picture than just death.) Sam was going to move on, as they promised. But Bobby pointed out, that was a non-agreement. Ironically, Sam thought he was respecting Dean’s wishes.
So when he hear him say that under the same circumstances, he wouldn’t save Dean, we weren’t shocked.
So that last parting shot, that the crushed look on Dean’s face as Sam walked away ( Was it me or did we see tears in his eyes? Someone might as well have just told him Sam was dead. We’d see the same look) puzzled me at first. But since we know this about Sam, so clearly, why is Dean so devastated stunned and hurt?
Because, he only heard one thing “I don’t have your back. (you can’t trust family) There are some things I wouldn’t do for you (Family isn’t the be all end all thing for me), and I will not be there for you”, on top of the “we’re not brothers” message that he got from the previous conversation.
Dean was flashing back to Soulless Sam betraying him, not having his back, letting him get turned into a vamp, he was remembering how Sam lied to him about not having a soul, and realizing Sam is now like that soulless monster he feared.. He was thinking about Sam and the demon blood, he was remembering that Sam wasn’t the one who helped him out of purgatory, that while he gave up everything for Sam and Sam won’t do the same for him (which coincidentally is the very definition that Dean has for proving "you’re family" He was remembering what Yellow Eyes said “they don’t need you. Not like you need them”. Every feeling of betrayal that Sam has ever caused in Dean came surging back, and like a dam breaking, it overwhelmed him. – Dean dying inside again.
Dean has only ever had one reason to live and that is Sam. Dean has never lost his desire to be “in the fight” but it is only been because of Sammy. Hell, it was the reason he walked away from his one chance at normal. Sam has driven him. The one reason Dean has wanted to live has been for Sam. Not for any other reason, but Sam. I point this out, because I was remembering season five, the season where we see Dean “dead inside” . It was the season where we get a taste of how much Sam’s actions from Season four affected him. Dean “died” inside because his brother chose a demon over family. Here again, is that pesky little “family” thing.
If he doesn’t have Sam believing in him, or “putting family first” – what reason does he have to live? And with the Mark of Cain burning on his arm, he doesn’t have Sam to have his back. Sam won’t be there to save him from what he has to do. Sam, his brother, his only family, saying that he doesn’t want to be family, is too much for Dean to handle.
(For the record, I’m not saying that Sam said these things exactly, only that Dean has taken them this way)


END PART II
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-09 17:25
PART II
So what does Dean do? He goes back to the one argument that has made his world make sense; family. It is the word that proves he isn't selfish. When you do things for family, you're doing the right thing. End of story.
Dad drilled it into him.
Bobby drilled it into him.
You do whatever it takes for Family.
In “In the beginning” episode, when Dean is trying to prevent the future from unfolding the way it did, Cas warned Dean that if he did change the future, all those people he saved would die. And Dean simply responds “they’re my parents”. There are no rules when it comes to family. Dean prevented Henry Winchester from going back to fix everything but since it meant that Sam might die, he forces Henry along for the ride. For Sam. Ironically, Henry got it. Family.
According to Dean, Family means doing whatever it takes. Family is always having your back. Family is forgiving and moving on because if you don’t have family, what do you have? It’s not so much that Dean can’t handle being alone, it’s that Dean can’t live without family. It is the stone he was chiseled out of. He recites it to himself, and he believes it. It’s the glue that holds him together. He did what he did for family. How is family selfish?
Need we mention that Sam's definition of family isn’t even in the same solar system as Dean's? We've known this for some time and yet we have always trusted (minus the soulless Sam drama) that he has always had Dean's back. That he would always be there for his older brother "I'd do anything for my big brother. (For the record, I believe this is still the case). But he didn’t get the crusts cut off his PB&J. He doesn’t want this kind family- he has always wanted a normal, safe family. Who can blame him.
Sam’s confession that he wouldn’t save Dean isn’t a shock to us. He didn’t even try to look for Dean when he vanished. ( I know Sam thought he was dead, but he’s a Winchester and knows better that when you “vanish” out of thin air, there is more to the picture than just death.) Sam was going to move on, as they promised. But Bobby pointed out, that was a non-agreement. Ironically, Sam thought he was respecting Dean’s wishes.
So when he hear him say that under the same circumstances, he wouldn’t save Dean, we weren’t shocked.
So that last parting shot, that the crushed look on Dean’s face as Sam walked away ( Was it me or did we see tears in his eyes? Someone might as well have just told him Sam was dead. We’d see the same look) puzzled me at first. But since we know this about Sam, so clearly, why is Dean so devastated stunned and hurt?
Because, he only heard one thing “I don’t have your back. (you can’t trust family) There are some things I wouldn’t do for you (Family isn’t the be all end all thing for me), and I will not be there for you”, on top of the “we’re not brothers” message that he got from the previous conversation.
Dean was flashing back to Soulless Sam betraying him, not having his back, letting him get turned into a vamp, he was remembering how Sam lied to him about not having a soul, and realizing Sam is now like that soulless monster he feared.. He was thinking about Sam and the demon blood, he was remembering that Sam wasn’t the one who helped him out of purgatory, that while he gave up everything for Sam and Sam won’t do the same for him (which coincidentally is the very definition that Dean has for proving "you’re family" He was remembering what Yellow Eyes said “they don’t need you. Not like you need them”. Every feeling of betrayal that Sam has ever caused in Dean came surging back, and like a dam breaking, it overwhelmed him. – Dean dying inside again.
Dean has only ever had one reason to live and that is Sam. Dean has never lost his desire to be “in the fight” but it is only been because of Sammy. Hell, it was the reason he walked away from his one chance at normal. Sam has driven him. The one reason Dean has wanted to live has been for Sam. Not for any other reason, but Sam. I point this out, because I was remembering season five, the season where we see Dean “dead inside” . It was the season where we get a taste of how much Sam’s actions from Season four affected him. Dean “died” inside because his brother chose a demon over family. Here again, is that pesky little “family” thing.
If he doesn’t have Sam believing in him, or “putting family first” – what reason does he have to live? And with the Mark of Cain burning on his arm, he doesn’t have Sam to have his back. Sam won’t be there to save him from what he has to do. Sam, his brother, his only family, saying that he doesn’t want to be family, is too much for Dean to handle.
(For the record, I’m not saying that Sam said these things exactly, only that Dean has taken them this way)


END PART II
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-09 17:26
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!
Sandra K
# Sandra K 2014-02-09 17:26
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!
Arad
# Arad 2014-02-09 17:55
Sandra K, thanks for this - very insightful and interesting. I wonder whether Sam is able (capable) of doing the same kind of forgiving Dean has been, because he works in a very, how can I say, practical way. Where Dean is nearly all instinct (and as we saw in "Bad Boys" willing to let his conviction about what is right lead him despite the pain and difficulties), Sam is guided by pragmatism (which is what misleads him - Ruby, for example). This makes forgiveness a much more difficult thing, because there is no driving motivation.

Plus, I would still like to reconcile Sam who gave Dean the "light at the end of the tunnel" speech twelve months ago, with the Sam of this episode (or last).
Arad
# Arad 2014-02-09 17:55
Sandra K, thanks for this - very insightful and interesting. I wonder whether Sam is able (capable) of doing the same kind of forgiving Dean has been, because he works in a very, how can I say, practical way. Where Dean is nearly all instinct (and as we saw in "Bad Boys" willing to let his conviction about what is right lead him despite the pain and difficulties), Sam is guided by pragmatism (which is what misleads him - Ruby, for example). This makes forgiveness a much more difficult thing, because there is no driving motivation.

Plus, I would still like to reconcile Sam who gave Dean the "light at the end of the tunnel" speech twelve months ago, with the Sam of this episode (or last).
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-09 18:06
once upon a time not too long ago dean winchester went to stanford and asked his brother to help him find dad. sam told dean he could do it alone, but dean told him he didn't want to. jess dies. sam joins his brother seeking revenge. along the way we learn a few things about dean.
in ditw, when sam felt like they should be hunting for their father, dean made a comment to sam : you think i don't want to find dad. i'm the one who's been with him for the last couple of years while you were off at pep rallies.
in skin, shifter dean told sam that he had issues with him. he went off to school. he had friends. while dean had to stay home because dad needed him.
in shadow, dean got angry with sam when sam talked of going back to school once the demon was dead.
in the mag 7 when sam told dean that he remembered how twisted and broken he was about dad's deal, and now he was doing the same thing to him..dean said he could live with that. after all he'd done for his family. ( so basically dean told sam i suffered so i'm ok with you doing it. )
in nrftw dean told sam that he'd be ok. he'd keep hunting. he's stronger than he was. ( a dying wish ensuring sam stay hunting)
here's the one that got me thinking though. dean's battle with himself in daldom. dream dean told dean that he was just an obedient little soldier and that's all he knew, all he was good for. he told him how his father doted on sam. dean broke down and responded that his father was a selfish bastard. he put too much on him. he couldn't take care of sammy but dean did. he didn't deserve what was put on him. he didn't deserve to die....awesome speech by the way.
here's where my mind started wondering. dean has always waffled when it came to sam and normal.
in wiawsb, when talking to his dad at the grave, dean questioned his father, mom's not supposed to have grandkids, sam's not supposed to get married?
so there have been moments when dean wanted sam to have normal. in s8 dean was pissed at sam for not hunting. that was part of why he was angry. his misperception had him believing that sam was off with a girl living this normal life leaving hunting and thus i think dean behind. not the case, but i think that's what dean believed. he made sam feel like crap about that for half the season. but then in the second half of the season, he's telling sam he wants him to have a normal life...what does dean really want? in the purge, sam asked dean what the upside was to him being alive and dean's response was them fighting the good fight. that response didn't sit well with me. i could see why sam, in the state of mind he's in right now, questioned dean. was it about sam at all? did dean save sam because he loves him or because he needs him? in all honesty, between the lying, the trickery, and the guilt that's still eating away at sam, i really do understand how it's possible for him to doubt his brother's true motivations.
as for me, i have no doubt dean loves sam, but i have to wonder if that's all it's about. this leads me back to dean's resentment of sam.
is dean's need to hunt with sam because he truly wants his brother by his side? or is dean punishing sam? let me explain what i mean. dean resents his father for all the responsibility he laid on him as a child. he had dreams. dean resented on some level having to take care of sam. it wasn't sam's fault. but dad took off and thus made dean responsible for his brother. his father made dean the parent. dean never allowed himself, even as a grown man, to walk away from hunting. his father seemed to instill in him that hunting was the only thing dean was capable of doing. dean was jealous as he admitted to sam, that he couldn't walk away the way sam could. sam could fight back against his father, but dean never could. dean loves sam undoubtedly, but i he's also admitted to resenting him as well. so deep down, buried in the cockles of dean's heart, i can't help but think that dean's need for sam to hunt may have something to do with his resentment towards him. i couldn't leave hunting and follow my dreams, why should you?
or is something else like, his father has made dean feel so unworthy that dean honestly feels that he can't function as a hunter unless he has sam with him. in daldom dream dean did tell dean that his father thought him an obedient little soldier. he also told dean that he was dead inside and when he looked in the mirror he didn't like what he saw.
i can't help but think that his extremely low self esteem and lack of worth might also have something to do with dean's need to have sam at his side hunting. or does dean think that hunting is the only thing that keeps these boys close and sam wouldn't love him the same if they weren't doing the same thing.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-09 18:06
once upon a time not too long ago dean winchester went to stanford and asked his brother to help him find dad. sam told dean he could do it alone, but dean told him he didn't want to. jess dies. sam joins his brother seeking revenge. along the way we learn a few things about dean.
in ditw, when sam felt like they should be hunting for their father, dean made a comment to sam : you think i don't want to find dad. i'm the one who's been with him for the last couple of years while you were off at pep rallies.
in skin, shifter dean told sam that he had issues with him. he went off to school. he had friends. while dean had to stay home because dad needed him.
in shadow, dean got angry with sam when sam talked of going back to school once the demon was dead.
in the mag 7 when sam told dean that he remembered how twisted and broken he was about dad's deal, and now he was doing the same thing to him..dean said he could live with that. after all he'd done for his family. ( so basically dean told sam i suffered so i'm ok with you doing it. )
in nrftw dean told sam that he'd be ok. he'd keep hunting. he's stronger than he was. ( a dying wish ensuring sam stay hunting)
here's the one that got me thinking though. dean's battle with himself in daldom. dream dean told dean that he was just an obedient little soldier and that's all he knew, all he was good for. he told him how his father doted on sam. dean broke down and responded that his father was a selfish bastard. he put too much on him. he couldn't take care of sammy but dean did. he didn't deserve what was put on him. he didn't deserve to die....awesome speech by the way.
here's where my mind started wondering. dean has always waffled when it came to sam and normal.
in wiawsb, when talking to his dad at the grave, dean questioned his father, mom's not supposed to have grandkids, sam's not supposed to get married?
so there have been moments when dean wanted sam to have normal. in s8 dean was pissed at sam for not hunting. that was part of why he was angry. his misperception had him believing that sam was off with a girl living this normal life leaving hunting and thus i think dean behind. not the case, but i think that's what dean believed. he made sam feel like crap about that for half the season. but then in the second half of the season, he's telling sam he wants him to have a normal life...what does dean really want? in the purge, sam asked dean what the upside was to him being alive and dean's response was them fighting the good fight. that response didn't sit well with me. i could see why sam, in the state of mind he's in right now, questioned dean. was it about sam at all? did dean save sam because he loves him or because he needs him? in all honesty, between the lying, the trickery, and the guilt that's still eating away at sam, i really do understand how it's possible for him to doubt his brother's true motivations.
as for me, i have no doubt dean loves sam, but i have to wonder if that's all it's about. this leads me back to dean's resentment of sam.
is dean's need to hunt with sam because he truly wants his brother by his side? or is dean punishing sam? let me explain what i mean. dean resents his father for all the responsibility he laid on him as a child. he had dreams. dean resented on some level having to take care of sam. it wasn't sam's fault. but dad took off and thus made dean responsible for his brother. his father made dean the parent. dean never allowed himself, even as a grown man, to walk away from hunting. his father seemed to instill in him that hunting was the only thing dean was capable of doing. dean was jealous as he admitted to sam, that he couldn't walk away the way sam could. sam could fight back against his father, but dean never could. dean loves sam undoubtedly, but i he's also admitted to resenting him as well. so deep down, buried in the cockles of dean's heart, i can't help but think that dean's need for sam to hunt may have something to do with his resentment towards him. i couldn't leave hunting and follow my dreams, why should you?
or is something else like, his father has made dean feel so unworthy that dean honestly feels that he can't function as a hunter unless he has sam with him. in daldom dream dean did tell dean that his father thought him an obedient little soldier. he also told dean that he was dead inside and when he looked in the mirror he didn't like what he saw.
i can't help but think that his extremely low self esteem and lack of worth might also have something to do with dean's need to have sam at his side hunting. or does dean think that hunting is the only thing that keeps these boys close and sam wouldn't love him the same if they weren't doing the same thing.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-09 18:17
there's a deeper issue here that dean needs to face and deal with. i think sam questioning dean's motives may have just cracked dean's foundation.
by no means do i think that these boys don't need to have another sit down and really just have at it. i'm proud of sam for what he's doing and i think it will lead to both of them dealing with their deep rooted issues and finally seeing ea. other and understanding ea. other for the first time ever. sam has stuff he needs to deal with just as dean does.
if sam had just said ok dean, all is forgiven, then nothing would ever truly get resolved and they'll never ever deal with their crap. these boys won't go to a shrink..so they have to figure things out for themselves and deal with it together. sam is doing the right thing. he's not letting it go. he's confronting his brother. he may even start to piss dean off. at the very least he's got dean's attention. he's asking dean questions that dean needs to ask himself. he pushing dean to engage instead of dean just sweeping it all away under the rug. that's a good thing. that's what they need. that's how they'll be able to rebuild. and their relationship will be stronger because all that crap will be out in the open. they'll understand ea. other the way they never truly did before. i feel they'll be the brothers i personally want them to be and leave most not all because they are the winchesters after all, but leave some of that dysfunction behind.
nappi815
# nappi815 2014-02-09 18:17
there's a deeper issue here that dean needs to face and deal with. i think sam questioning dean's motives may have just cracked dean's foundation.
by no means do i think that these boys don't need to have another sit down and really just have at it. i'm proud of sam for what he's doing and i think it will lead to both of them dealing with their deep rooted issues and finally seeing ea. other and understanding ea. other for the first time ever. sam has stuff he needs to deal with just as dean does.
if sam had just said ok dean, all is forgiven, then nothing would ever truly get resolved and they'll never ever deal with their crap. these boys won't go to a shrink..so they have to figure things out for themselves and deal with it together. sam is doing the right thing. he's not letting it go. he's confronting his brother. he may even start to piss dean off. at the very least he's got dean's attention. he's asking dean questions that dean needs to ask himself. he pushing dean to engage instead of dean just sweeping it all away under the rug. that's a good thing. that's what they need. that's how they'll be able to rebuild. and their relationship will be stronger because all that crap will be out in the open. they'll understand ea. other the way they never truly did before. i feel they'll be the brothers i personally want them to be and leave most not all because they are the winchesters after all, but leave some of that dysfunction behind.
alice
# alice 2014-02-09 19:15
Sorry guys, but I've been reading all these comments and you've strayed. You're dredging up ancient history AGAIN (which is happening on all threads) and several of these comments have clearly gone Sam vs. Dean. You all are at an impasse. Sam did this, Dean did this, blah, blah blah. I'm very close to closing this thread for good. Get the discussion back on track. Discuss THE EPISODE. Thank you.
Alice
# Alice 2014-02-09 19:15
Sorry guys, but I've been reading all these comments and you've strayed. You're dredging up ancient history AGAIN (which is happening on all threads) and several of these comments have clearly gone Sam vs. Dean. You all are at an impasse. Sam did this, Dean did this, blah, blah blah. I'm very close to closing this thread for good. Get the discussion back on track. Discuss THE EPISODE. Thank you.
jace
# jace 2014-02-09 19:39
I haven't posted much about this episode probably because I am still processing it. I have read a lot of reviews and comments about it though. It have found several good balanced reviews that and some that just want to excuse one brother and lay the majority of the blame on the other. Those I back out of quickly. Even after all these years, t here are still a great deal of fans who have Sam vs Dean as their default position. To me that completely misses the point of the story. Both brothers have a long history of screwing up and saying or doing hurtful things. It's not a surprise given their relationship is messy and complicated. I do agree that the writers are using this particular plot point of breaking up the boys and getting them back together too many times. It would be nice if we got them on the same page and left them there but apparently we must have conflict to make things interesting so here we go again...

Sam's comment that the brothers do not see things the same way anymore has really made me think about the current state of affairs between them. I can understand why they each are reeling. Who didn't
suffer along with Dean when he was faced with losing his brother that he had basically just talked out of dying ? Us normal folks would just have to be out of luck but Dean Winchester has connections and can pull out a miracle on a fairly regular basis. I think I would be tempted too. Would it be a little bit selfish? I think so because it would be about my loss not about honoring the person's wishes. Was it sneaky? Oh yeah. But completely human and understandable. I am in complete sympathy at his desperation to save Sam.

One of the sticking points that people have had with Sam's reaction to finding out that he had been tricked into possession is that he said some really hurtful, extreme things to Dean. I agree that he was very harsh and as I watched I kept thinking, Sam , stop talking right now. I feel that he does have the right to feel angry and even betrayed because he never imagined that Dean's “plan” would included having him possessed—somet hing that Dean knows full well that Sam wouldn't rather die than have happened...agai n. He is basically Grand Central Station at this point. Some of the accusations coming from Sam rang true for me but some made me really scratch my head. All I can think is that Sam is speaking from his hurt and betrayal and we say things in the heat of the moment that we can't take back to our later regret. Part of Sam's frustration with Dean now is that Dean feels that he did the right thing in going against what Sam wanted and would do it again. And back to the brothers not seeing things the same way—Sam would not do the same thing because in his thinking, there are certain lines that should not be crossed even to save your brother. He might be tempted but he would let Dean go rather than taking away his right to choose his own fate.

Tough stuff. Really hurtful stuff. And poor Dean standing there absolutely gutted both by Sam's harsh accusations and the realization that they don't think the same about going as far as necessary for each other. So now Dean is guilty about Kevin, vengeful against Gadreel and emotionally distant from Sam. Where is this all going for Dean? I think somewhere bad.

The writers have said that they are breaking down the brothers' relationship in order to rebuild it in a healthier place. Now, I have mostly enjoyed the brothers' relationship but since it has now been deemed unhealthy, I can only hope that there is a satisfying payoff to all this painful stuff and that it includes them understanding and being sympathetic to each other's point of view.
jace
# jace 2014-02-09 19:39
I haven't posted much about this episode probably because I am still processing it. I have read a lot of reviews and comments about it though. It have found several good balanced reviews that and some that just want to excuse one brother and lay the majority of the blame on the other. Those I back out of quickly. Even after all these years, t here are still a great deal of fans who have Sam vs Dean as their default position. To me that completely misses the point of the story. Both brothers have a long history of screwing up and saying or doing hurtful things. It's not a surprise given their relationship is messy and complicated. I do agree that the writers are using this particular plot point of breaking up the boys and getting them back together too many times. It would be nice if we got them on the same page and left them there but apparently we must have conflict to make things interesting so here we go again...

Sam's comment that the brothers do not see things the same way anymore has really made me think about the current state of affairs between them. I can understand why they each are reeling. Who didn't
suffer along with Dean when he was faced with losing his brother that he had basically just talked out of dying ? Us normal folks would just have to be out of luck but Dean Winchester has connections and can pull out a miracle on a fairly regular basis. I think I would be tempted too. Would it be a little bit selfish? I think so because it would be about my loss not about honoring the person's wishes. Was it sneaky? Oh yeah. But completely human and understandable. I am in complete sympathy at his desperation to save Sam.

One of the sticking points that people have had with Sam's reaction to finding out that he had been tricked into possession is that he said some really hurtful, extreme things to Dean. I agree that he was very harsh and as I watched I kept thinking, Sam , stop talking right now. I feel that he does have the right to feel angry and even betrayed because he never imagined that Dean's “plan” would included having him possessed—somet hing that Dean knows full well that Sam wouldn't rather die than have happened...agai n. He is basically Grand Central Station at this point. Some of the accusations coming from Sam rang true for me but some made me really scratch my head. All I can think is that Sam is speaking from his hurt and betrayal and we say things in the heat of the moment that we can't take back to our later regret. Part of Sam's frustration with Dean now is that Dean feels that he did the right thing in going against what Sam wanted and would do it again. And back to the brothers not seeing things the same way—Sam would not do the same thing because in his thinking, there are certain lines that should not be crossed even to save your brother. He might be tempted but he would let Dean go rather than taking away his right to choose his own fate.

Tough stuff. Really hurtful stuff. And poor Dean standing there absolutely gutted both by Sam's harsh accusations and the realization that they don't think the same about going as far as necessary for each other. So now Dean is guilty about Kevin, vengeful against Gadreel and emotionally distant from Sam. Where is this all going for Dean? I think somewhere bad.

The writers have said that they are breaking down the brothers' relationship in order to rebuild it in a healthier place. Now, I have mostly enjoyed the brothers' relationship but since it has now been deemed unhealthy, I can only hope that there is a satisfying payoff to all this painful stuff and that it includes them understanding and being sympathetic to each other's point of view.
jace
# jace 2014-02-09 19:44
That's Sam WOULD rather die than have it happen again...
jace
# jace 2014-02-09 19:44
That's Sam WOULD rather die than have it happen again...
Mony
# Mony 2014-02-09 20:05
Quoting anonymousN:


And before that Dean was dismissive of Sam.That was fifth episode of Season 5.I think this is the first episode after Sam downloaded Gad's memories.Maybe after five episodes we will get Dean's POV(not that the first ten episodes where about Dean justifying his actions).


Sam downloaded Gad's memories in "Road Trip", episode 9.10. Since then we've had "First Born", "Sharp Teeth", and "The Purge." This upcoming episode will be the fifth episode since Sam found out. So it's time for another "Fallen Idols", just with Dean getting the chance to speak his mind.

Personally, I don't need another episode of Dean justifying his actions. I think we all know Dean did it because he feels responsible for Sam, wants Sam to have a future, puts Sam on a pedestal above everyone else, is happiest hunting with Sam at his side, etc. Just because Sam thinks it's only because Dean is selfish and can't be alone doesn't mean that's the truth. But I doubt anything Dean says to Sam will change his mind so there's no point in even going there.

I rather Dean be able to counter some of Sam's accusations.Bec ause I'm sorry but calling your brothers selfish and needy, while undermining the good he's done in his life was just unnecessarily cruel.

I want Dean to ask Sam since when do you reject your brother just because he made a dubious choice out of desperation to save your life? Sam has every right to tell Dean he's not happy with that choice but until he's walked in Dean's shoes, Sam has no right to judge him.

And whether Dean brings it up or Sam realizes it himself, there's also the issue of how Sam himself contributes to Dean's codependency. Sam wants to be autonomous and independent but he doesn't seem to want the same for Dean. Like how whenever they have a major falling out, Sam is the one who lays down the conditions of them getting back together (ex, Metamorphosis, Fallen Idols, Southern Comfort, Sharp Teeth.) The implication is pretty clear- if Dean objects, Sam will just walk. Dean might bluster and bring up Sam's past misdeeds. But it's Sam who holds the power in those situations and he uses it to keep Dean in line. Sam knows that Dean, with all his self esteem and abandonment issues, will back down and pretty much agree to anything to ensure Sam sticks around. True equality would be them discussing the problem and coming up with a solution that's agreeable to them both, not just one person dictating terms.

For Dean to have his own identity apart from Sam, he also needs to have other real relationships in his life (actually, they both do). But I think Sam is very insecure and heart of hearts, he really doesn't want Dean to form close attachments to anyone else. Like how Sam keeps saying that Dean can keep hunting alone when/if Sam leaves - why not suggest Dean get a new hunting partner? Dean's very social and would be much happier around someone else (plus it'd be safer for Dean.) Or how Sam hated Benny from the get go. To my recall, Sam has never been willing to give any other 'good" monster the benefit of the doubt before. And yet, Sam was itching to kill Benny, was only willing to give Benny a half hearted endorsement even after Benny saved his life, and still sounded resentful of Benny in "Sacrifice." Granted, both brothers were angry after Dean got back from Purgatory and could have handled things differently. But I suspect Sam would have been jealous of Benny even under better circumstances.

I keep hearing about how Dean is more like Sam's father than brother. Then, to me, Sam is the child who only wants to keep his parent revolving around him. Realizing that parents are a separate individual with their own dreams, needs, persona apart from their children can be very threatening (even worse, I'd imagine, for someone who's already insecure like Sam.)

I don't know if the show will go there or if the writers truly understand why Dean is stuck in his current mindset. But to my mind, it's a lot more complicated and messy than just "mean, bossy Dean gets off on trying to run poor, helpless Sam's life."
Mony
# Mony 2014-02-09 20:05
Quote:


And before that Dean was dismissive of Sam.That was fifth episode of Season 5.I think this is the first episode after Sam downloaded Gad's memories.Maybe after five episodes we will get Dean's POV(not that the first ten episodes where about Dean justifying his actions).
Sam downloaded Gad's memories in "Road Trip", episode 9.10. Since then we've had "First Born", "Sharp Teeth", and "The Purge." This upcoming episode will be the fifth episode since Sam found out. So it's time for another "Fallen Idols", just with Dean getting the chance to speak his mind.

Personally, I don't need another episode of Dean justifying his actions. I think we all know Dean did it because he feels responsible for Sam, wants Sam to have a future, puts Sam on a pedestal above everyone else, is happiest hunting with Sam at his side, etc. Just because Sam thinks it's only because Dean is selfish and can't be alone doesn't mean that's the truth. But I doubt anything Dean says to Sam will change his mind so there's no point in even going there.

I rather Dean be able to counter some of Sam's accusations.Bec ause I'm sorry but calling your brothers selfish and needy, while undermining the good he's done in his life was just unnecessarily cruel.

I want Dean to ask Sam since when do you reject your brother just because he made a dubious choice out of desperation to save your life? Sam has every right to tell Dean he's not happy with that choice but until he's walked in Dean's shoes, Sam has no right to judge him.

And whether Dean brings it up or Sam realizes it himself, there's also the issue of how Sam himself contributes to Dean's codependency. Sam wants to be autonomous and independent but he doesn't seem to want the same for Dean. Like how whenever they have a major falling out, Sam is the one who lays down the conditions of them getting back together (ex, Metamorphosis, Fallen Idols, Southern Comfort, Sharp Teeth.) The implication is pretty clear- if Dean objects, Sam will just walk. Dean might bluster and bring up Sam's past misdeeds. But it's Sam who holds the power in those situations and he uses it to keep Dean in line. Sam knows that Dean, with all his self esteem and abandonment issues, will back down and pretty much agree to anything to ensure Sam sticks around. True equality would be them discussing the problem and coming up with a solution that's agreeable to them both, not just one person dictating terms.

For Dean to have his own identity apart from Sam, he also needs to have other real relationships in his life (actually, they both do). But I think Sam is very insecure and heart of hearts, he really doesn't want Dean to form close attachments to anyone else. Like how Sam keeps saying that Dean can keep hunting alone when/if Sam leaves - why not suggest Dean get a new hunting partner? Dean's very social and would be much happier around someone else (plus it'd be safer for Dean.) Or how Sam hated Benny from the get go. To my recall, Sam has never been willing to give any other 'good" monster the benefit of the doubt before. And yet, Sam was itching to kill Benny, was only willing to give Benny a half hearted endorsement even after Benny saved his life, and still sounded resentful of Benny in "Sacrifice." Granted, both brothers were angry after Dean got back from Purgatory and could have handled things differently. But I suspect Sam would have been jealous of Benny even under better circumstances.

I keep hearing about how Dean is more like Sam's father than brother. Then, to me, Sam is the child who only wants to keep his parent revolving around him. Realizing that parents are a separate individual with their own dreams, needs, persona apart from their children can be very threatening (even worse, I'd imagine, for someone who's already insecure like Sam.)

I don't know if the show will go there or if the writers truly understand why Dean is stuck in his current mindset. But to my mind, it's a lot more complicated and messy than just "mean, bossy Dean gets off on trying to run poor, helpless Sam's life."
Mony
# Mony 2014-02-09 20:07
Alice, apologies, I didn't see your warning before I posted. Sorry if my comment is too far off track.
Mony
# Mony 2014-02-09 20:07
Alice, apologies, I didn't see your warning before I posted. Sorry if my comment is too far off track.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-09 20:23
Quoting Sandra K:
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!


Hi SandraK, that was very interesting! I agree with a lot of it. The issue I have with the way this story is unfolding is there it gives me little reason to want the boys to work through things except in finding a way to say goodbye. If Sam really wants that life with an Amelia or to make sure he's never involved with another death, so he needs to die himself or at the least put down the hero mantle as he did when Dean disappeared, then he really needs to not be with Dean. Dean is going to continue fighting and he's going to have to make hard decisions and there will be deaths.

And Dean will always need a sense of family. He's been looking his whole life to feel he's valued by as much as he values his family. If he and Sam have such diametrically opposed senses of what they need and how they view their history, I can't see how they rebuild something that is satisfying for both. And that makes me very sad.

If the arc manages to surprise me on how they pick up the pieces smashed in this talk, I'll be happy. So I'm hoping to be surprised at where this arc leads.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-09 20:23
Quote:
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!
Hi SandraK, that was very interesting! I agree with a lot of it. The issue I have with the way this story is unfolding is there it gives me little reason to want the boys to work through things except in finding a way to say goodbye. If Sam really wants that life with an Amelia or to make sure he's never involved with another death, so he needs to die himself or at the least put down the hero mantle as he did when Dean disappeared, then he really needs to not be with Dean. Dean is going to continue fighting and he's going to have to make hard decisions and there will be deaths.

And Dean will always need a sense of family. He's been looking his whole life to feel he's valued by as much as he values his family. If he and Sam have such diametrically opposed senses of what they need and how they view their history, I can't see how they rebuild something that is satisfying for both. And that makes me very sad.

If the arc manages to surprise me on how they pick up the pieces smashed in this talk, I'll be happy. So I'm hoping to be surprised at where this arc leads.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-09 23:49
Gerry, Dean is going to continue fighting and make hard decisions, yes. But the hard decision in 9.1 would have been to let Sam go and to honor his wishes.

I agree that Dean craves family, but it's heartbreaking to see him act in a way where he's going to end up alone. He holds on too tight and he's too controlling, which was especially evident with Kevin and Sam of course. He's becoming more and more like John and we saw what happened between John and Sam.

I don't know how it's going to end. I don't really want them to stay together either. It's too destructive for both, but as you say, the writers might surprise us (I miss Edlund).
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-09 23:49
Gerry, Dean is going to continue fighting and make hard decisions, yes. But the hard decision in 9.1 would have been to let Sam go and to honor his wishes.

I agree that Dean craves family, but it's heartbreaking to see him act in a way where he's going to end up alone. He holds on too tight and he's too controlling, which was especially evident with Kevin and Sam of course. He's becoming more and more like John and we saw what happened between John and Sam.

I don't know how it's going to end. I don't really want them to stay together either. It's too destructive for both, but as you say, the writers might surprise us (I miss Edlund).
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-10 03:58
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting Sandra K:
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!


Hi SandraK, that was very interesting! I agree with a lot of it. The issue I have with the way this story is unfolding is there it gives me little reason to want the boys to work through things except in finding a way to say goodbye. If Sam really wants that life with an Amelia or to make sure he's never involved with another death, so he needs to die himself or at the least put down the hero mantle as he did when Dean disappeared, then he really needs to not be with Dean. Dean is going to continue fighting and he's going to have to make hard decisions and there will be deaths.

And Dean will always need a sense of family. He's been looking his whole life to feel he's valued by as much as he values his family. If he and Sam have such diametrically opposed senses of what they need and how they view their history, I can't see how they rebuild something that is satisfying for both. And that makes me very sad.

If the arc manages to surprise me on how they pick up the pieces smashed in this talk, I'll be happy. So I'm hoping to be surprised at where this arc leads.

I see it as Sam wanting to have a life where his brother does not betray him the same way Azazel had.To put something in his body without his consent or trick him like Meg did.Azazel was a demon but dean is his brother and that makes it more horrific.
If Dean continues doing such thing he might have to put down his "big brother" mantle.Sam wants to hunt killer monsters his aim is not be a monster.If he becomes a hero because of that well good enough.He surely does not want to be possessed.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-10 03:58
Quote:
Quote:
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!
Hi SandraK, that was very interesting! I agree with a lot of it. The issue I have with the way this story is unfolding is there it gives me little reason to want the boys to work through things except in finding a way to say goodbye. If Sam really wants that life with an Amelia or to make sure he's never involved with another death, so he needs to die himself or at the least put down the hero mantle as he did when Dean disappeared, then he really needs to not be with Dean. Dean is going to continue fighting and he's going to have to make hard decisions and there will be deaths.

And Dean will always need a sense of family. He's been looking his whole life to feel he's valued by as much as he values his family. If he and Sam have such diametrically opposed senses of what they need and how they view their history, I can't see how they rebuild something that is satisfying for both. And that makes me very sad.

If the arc manages to surprise me on how they pick up the pieces smashed in this talk, I'll be happy. So I'm hoping to be surprised at where this arc leads.
I see it as Sam wanting to have a life where his brother does not betray him the same way Azazel had.To put something in his body without his consent or trick him like Meg did.Azazel was a demon but dean is his brother and that makes it more horrific.
If Dean continues doing such thing he might have to put down his "big brother" mantle.Sam wants to hunt killer monsters his aim is not be a monster.If he becomes a hero because of that well good enough.He surely does not want to be possessed.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-10 04:42
Quoting Gerry:
Quoting Sandra K:
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!


Hi SandraK, that was very interesting! I agree with a lot of it. The issue I have with the way this story is unfolding is there it gives me little reason to want the boys to work through things except in finding a way to say goodbye. If Sam really wants that life with an Amelia or to make sure he's never involved with another death, so he needs to die himself or at the least put down the hero mantle as he did when Dean disappeared, then he really needs to not be with Dean. Dean is going to continue fighting and he's going to have to make hard decisions and there will be deaths.

And Dean will always need a sense of family. He's been looking his whole life to feel he's valued by as much as he values his family. If he and Sam have such diametrically opposed senses of what they need and how they view their history, I can't see how they rebuild something that is satisfying for both. And that makes me very sad.

If the arc manages to surprise me on how they pick up the pieces smashed in this talk, I'll be happy. So I'm hoping to be surprised at where this arc leads.

I do not desperately need the brothers together as it stands however hard decisions had little to do with what Dean did with Gadreel and Sam. I hate the fact that Sam's words seem to of deflected away from the original cause of the issue between them and Dean is being painted as a victim again of a brother who would not go to the end of the universe for him . And neither is true , what Sam would not do is do to Dean what he did to him and if that makes Sam a bad brother to some then so be it.

I am not sure they can come up with something that suits both? I hope they can so we can get a brothers relationship back with some balance, Sam obviously will keep hunting with Dean which is why that is important . Given his history with possession and choice taken from him Sam can no more help how he feels anymore than those claiming Dean cannot help himself from saving Sam at any cost.

I just do not want the show to tell me that Sam was wrong.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-10 04:42
Quote:
Quote:
Final part...sorry this is a long two cents!!

The last time things were bad and the debate over family was hashed out, Dean threw a way his amulet. And we all know that that Amulet meant.
So my puzzlement is gone. That look on Dean’s face was that of a broken (and still grieving man) realizing that he is alone. Sam doesn’t need him. Dean’s identity is breaking.
In the end they will work through this, because as mad as Sam is, when Dean finishes his fall (Dean has fallen off the wagon again ... that’s a bad sign) Sam will be there for him. Hell, if these two could work through the demon blood addictions and starting the apocalypse, then they can make it through this.
The difference here is that in Season 5 Dean has to work through what Sam did and he had to come to terms with it. Dean had to forgive and move on. Now, Sam has the forgiving to do now. Sam has to be the one to be ok with Dean.
Right now, it's all waiting on Sam. Dean has been taken out for the count with all Sam’s honesty and is paralyzed.
Anyway, that is my best attempt at understanding what is happening to my heart as I watch it break into a million pieces over these two very unreal, made up characters...

Thanks for hearing me out!
Hi SandraK, that was very interesting! I agree with a lot of it. The issue I have with the way this story is unfolding is there it gives me little reason to want the boys to work through things except in finding a way to say goodbye. If Sam really wants that life with an Amelia or to make sure he's never involved with another death, so he needs to die himself or at the least put down the hero mantle as he did when Dean disappeared, then he really needs to not be with Dean. Dean is going to continue fighting and he's going to have to make hard decisions and there will be deaths.

And Dean will always need a sense of family. He's been looking his whole life to feel he's valued by as much as he values his family. If he and Sam have such diametrically opposed senses of what they need and how they view their history, I can't see how they rebuild something that is satisfying for both. And that makes me very sad.

If the arc manages to surprise me on how they pick up the pieces smashed in this talk, I'll be happy. So I'm hoping to be surprised at where this arc leads.
I do not desperately need the brothers together as it stands however hard decisions had little to do with what Dean did with Gadreel and Sam. I hate the fact that Sam's words seem to of deflected away from the original cause of the issue between them and Dean is being painted as a victim again of a brother who would not go to the end of the universe for him . And neither is true , what Sam would not do is do to Dean what he did to him and if that makes Sam a bad brother to some then so be it.

I am not sure they can come up with something that suits both? I hope they can so we can get a brothers relationship back with some balance, Sam obviously will keep hunting with Dean which is why that is important . Given his history with possession and choice taken from him Sam can no more help how he feels anymore than those claiming Dean cannot help himself from saving Sam at any cost.

I just do not want the show to tell me that Sam was wrong.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-10 08:44
Quoting JuliaG:
Gerry, Dean is going to continue fighting and make hard decisions, yes. But the hard decision in 9.1 would have been to let Sam go and to honor his wishes.

I agree that Dean craves family, but it's heartbreaking to see him act in a way where he's going to end up alone. He holds on too tight and he's too controlling, which was especially evident with Kevin and Sam of course. He's becoming more and more like John and we saw what happened between John and Sam.

I don't know how it's going to end. I don't really want them to stay together either. It's too destructive for both, but as you say, the writers might surprise us (I miss Edlund).


Oh JuliaG, I hear you on missing Edlund! In his hands, this arc might have unfolded in a way that made sense to me. He handled the boys with care.

Taking Sam and Dean to the point where there is little reason to invest in them being together is a huge change of course for this show and not one the writers should take for granted they can reverse. Sigh.

And the implications for Sam in the narrative are not encouraging. Dean will not end up alone. He's always been shown to be able to make relationships. He's a very loved character. His relationship with Cas is already given a lot of narrative weight. That's unlikely to change.

Sam on the other hand, has been on a journey out of the centre of the narrative for some time now. He either wants to die or he wants to leave hunting. And while either case can be made for him, the show is about hunting and being a hero. And family and brotherhood. Taking Sam where he logically needs to go is taking him out of the centre of this story, which is probably why he spends so much time possessed and therefore another character. That takes me out of the show as a whole. I invested in Sam and Dean.

I really hope the writers can surprise me with their vision.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-10 08:44
Quote:
Gerry, Dean is going to continue fighting and make hard decisions, yes. But the hard decision in 9.1 would have been to let Sam go and to honor his wishes.

I agree that Dean craves family, but it's heartbreaking to see him act in a way where he's going to end up alone. He holds on too tight and he's too controlling, which was especially evident with Kevin and Sam of course. He's becoming more and more like John and we saw what happened between John and Sam.

I don't know how it's going to end. I don't really want them to stay together either. It's too destructive for both, but as you say, the writers might surprise us (I miss Edlund).
Oh JuliaG, I hear you on missing Edlund! In his hands, this arc might have unfolded in a way that made sense to me. He handled the boys with care.

Taking Sam and Dean to the point where there is little reason to invest in them being together is a huge change of course for this show and not one the writers should take for granted they can reverse. Sigh.

And the implications for Sam in the narrative are not encouraging. Dean will not end up alone. He's always been shown to be able to make relationships. He's a very loved character. His relationship with Cas is already given a lot of narrative weight. That's unlikely to change.

Sam on the other hand, has been on a journey out of the centre of the narrative for some time now. He either wants to die or he wants to leave hunting. And while either case can be made for him, the show is about hunting and being a hero. And family and brotherhood. Taking Sam where he logically needs to go is taking him out of the centre of this story, which is probably why he spends so much time possessed and therefore another character. That takes me out of the show as a whole. I invested in Sam and Dean.

I really hope the writers can surprise me with their vision.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-10 08:57
Alice - hope this doesn't go too far off topic but I think it's appropriate given Gerry's review and her perception of the events that have transpired. If not, please go ahead and delete this.

Perception and the maturation of the brothers relationship has been a key theme of Jeremy Carver's since taking over. Since the opinions on this are strong on both sides of the argument, I want to go back to a few key "broments" in S8/S9.

After Dean's "I'm a grunt" speech in S8, Sam response to his brother was that he was a genius when it came to lore, and that Dean was the best damn hunter he's ever seen.

In 9.02, when Dean tells Sam that he got lucky and killed the 3 demons, and bailed his ass out like as usual (to cover for Gadreel killing the demons), Sam responded that yeah, you are pretty awesome Dean.

Now let's look at some of Dean's responses at key broments.

At the end of 8.23, Dean responded to Sam with the list of things he sacrificed for Sam - that he killed Benny to save him, that he was willing to let Crowley and all those SOB's that killed Mom walk because of Sam.

In 9.01, when Sam was ready to be reaped, Dean (well, Gadreel channeling Dean) Dean replied that he could fix this and "there ain't no me if there ain't no you"

In 9.10 Road Trip, when Sam said he was ready to die, Dean replied "I know, but I wouldn't let you, because that's not in me".

In 9.11 The Purge You when Sam asked what the upside to him being alive, Dean replied "You kidding me? You and me, fighting the good fight". Earlier in the same conversation, Dean said "You know Sam, I saved your hide back there. I saved your hide at that church — in the hospital. I may not think things all the way through but when I do, it’s because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again."

I'm fascinated by the differences in the way they respond, with Sam affirming Dean for who he is as an individual. Dean's responses are markedly different, more in the context of what Sam's life/existence means to Dean, and the sacrifices he makes to keep Sam alive. Some of this is understandable given the role as Sam's parent/caretake r/brother since the age of 4 but I think this helps explain what Sam said things were broken and that they don't see their roles in this the same way.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-10 08:57
Alice - hope this doesn't go too far off topic but I think it's appropriate given Gerry's review and her perception of the events that have transpired. If not, please go ahead and delete this.

Perception and the maturation of the brothers relationship has been a key theme of Jeremy Carver's since taking over. Since the opinions on this are strong on both sides of the argument, I want to go back to a few key "broments" in S8/S9.

After Dean's "I'm a grunt" speech in S8, Sam response to his brother was that he was a genius when it came to lore, and that Dean was the best damn hunter he's ever seen.

In 9.02, when Dean tells Sam that he got lucky and killed the 3 demons, and bailed his ass out like as usual (to cover for Gadreel killing the demons), Sam responded that yeah, you are pretty awesome Dean.

Now let's look at some of Dean's responses at key broments.

At the end of 8.23, Dean responded to Sam with the list of things he sacrificed for Sam - that he killed Benny to save him, that he was willing to let Crowley and all those SOB's that killed Mom walk because of Sam.

In 9.01, when Sam was ready to be reaped, Dean (well, Gadreel channeling Dean) Dean replied that he could fix this and "there ain't no me if there ain't no you"

In 9.10 Road Trip, when Sam said he was ready to die, Dean replied "I know, but I wouldn't let you, because that's not in me".

In 9.11 The Purge You when Sam asked what the upside to him being alive, Dean replied "You kidding me? You and me, fighting the good fight". Earlier in the same conversation, Dean said "You know Sam, I saved your hide back there. I saved your hide at that church — in the hospital. I may not think things all the way through but when I do, it’s because it’s the right thing. I’d do it again."

I'm fascinated by the differences in the way they respond, with Sam affirming Dean for who he is as an individual. Dean's responses are markedly different, more in the context of what Sam's life/existence means to Dean, and the sacrifices he makes to keep Sam alive. Some of this is understandable given the role as Sam's parent/caretake r/brother since the age of 4 but I think this helps explain what Sam said things were broken and that they don't see their roles in this the same way.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-11 12:54
As a child, Sam having Dean to care for him and look out for him afforded Sam a sense of "self" that Dean was never afforded having been thrust into strictly the parental role as a child himself. I hope the writers are going to address this as the main difference in the way each sees things regarding the brother relationship. They are both selfish in ways-for Dean, the "selfishness" is in loving too much-for Sam, it's in his inability to even try to see what's below the surface of Dean's tough guy, over-protective nature. WE all know that Dean hates himself more than anyone else could(see Crowley's words at the end of First Born) and considers himself "90% crap"(and that percentage is likely higher now and especially after these last two episodes). The question for many of us is(and continues to be), will Dean's pain and hurt and self-hatred ever be addressed in a manner as in-depth and have it presented to us as sympathetically as Sam's usually are in these big, epic brotherly pow-wows. Or will Dean just accept that Sam's judgments here are all "spot-on" yet again and fold to these judgments and pronouncements of Sam's through yet another apology that leaves out any defense of himself or his actions whatsoever. This would be especially hard for many in this fandom to accept now and, again, after Sam's less than well-thought-ou t words in these last two brotherly pow-wows. And if Dean does just roll over yet again-where does that leave him? As accepting of the fact that he's done more harm than good? And that the pain of his many sacrifices have pretty much gone completely unnoticed by the one person in the world whom he thought would be able to understand that pain better than any other? The only way I can see this working is if, in a reversal of the story they tried to sell us in S4 and 5, we would next get a dark arc for Dean that would see it's beginning with this particular scene and ending with Sam having to do something that would go completely against HIS nature concerning Dean in order to save the world. I only wish I had more confidence in these writers to deliver something that would truly mend the bond for almost everyone in the fandom, at this point, because from what I've read we are now at a place that finds more than a few just wishing they would go their separate ways so that we can enjoy the show a little more again in this new supposedly more "mature"(as if) incarnation. Just typing that was hard. Personally, I would hope that it would end in S10, if Sam's POV in that scene is also the POV of the present set of writers as to this narrow interpretation of exactly who and what Dean Winchester is, at his very core.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-11 12:54
As a child, Sam having Dean to care for him and look out for him afforded Sam a sense of "self" that Dean was never afforded having been thrust into strictly the parental role as a child himself. I hope the writers are going to address this as the main difference in the way each sees things regarding the brother relationship. They are both selfish in ways-for Dean, the "selfishness" is in loving too much-for Sam, it's in his inability to even try to see what's below the surface of Dean's tough guy, over-protective nature. WE all know that Dean hates himself more than anyone else could(see Crowley's words at the end of First Born) and considers himself "90% crap"(and that percentage is likely higher now and especially after these last two episodes). The question for many of us is(and continues to be), will Dean's pain and hurt and self-hatred ever be addressed in a manner as in-depth and have it presented to us as sympathetically as Sam's usually are in these big, epic brotherly pow-wows. Or will Dean just accept that Sam's judgments here are all "spot-on" yet again and fold to these judgments and pronouncements of Sam's through yet another apology that leaves out any defense of himself or his actions whatsoever. This would be especially hard for many in this fandom to accept now and, again, after Sam's less than well-thought-ou t words in these last two brotherly pow-wows. And if Dean does just roll over yet again-where does that leave him? As accepting of the fact that he's done more harm than good? And that the pain of his many sacrifices have pretty much gone completely unnoticed by the one person in the world whom he thought would be able to understand that pain better than any other? The only way I can see this working is if, in a reversal of the story they tried to sell us in S4 and 5, we would next get a dark arc for Dean that would see it's beginning with this particular scene and ending with Sam having to do something that would go completely against HIS nature concerning Dean in order to save the world. I only wish I had more confidence in these writers to deliver something that would truly mend the bond for almost everyone in the fandom, at this point, because from what I've read we are now at a place that finds more than a few just wishing they would go their separate ways so that we can enjoy the show a little more again in this new supposedly more "mature"(as if) incarnation. Just typing that was hard. Personally, I would hope that it would end in S10, if Sam's POV in that scene is also the POV of the present set of writers as to this narrow interpretation of exactly who and what Dean Winchester is, at his very core.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-11 15:41
#127 Shelby2 Amen to your comment. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in these writers bringing the show back from the cliff they have created. What is happening is sad and I fear permanently damaging to the show.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-11 15:41
#127 Shelby2 Amen to your comment. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in these writers bringing the show back from the cliff they have created. What is happening is sad and I fear permanently damaging to the show.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-11 16:42
Quoting Prix68:
#127 Shelby2 Amen to your comment. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in these writers bringing the show back from the cliff they have created. What is happening is sad and I fear permanently damaging to the show.

Totally agree. This is my concern too. I believe that they THINK they can write their way out of this mess, but I don't for 3 reasons.

a) I have no confidence they have the talent or understanding of the characters to do it (the decision to have Sam not look for Dean being Exhibit A)

b) I don't share the writers vision for the 'healthier bond'. I like them codependent. I strongly believe it has been a strength not a weakness. For me to lose that would be to lose the heart of the show.

c) there have been too many of these watershed shining moments of honest communication and growth that have then been chucked on the bonfire in the writers increasingly un imaginative attempts to find new stories to tell. It breaks my heart that wonderful moments like in AHBL, SS, Sacrifice are now being devalued and recast as damaging or selfish or evidence that their bond was toxic and corrupt and unhealthy. So even if they write something wonderful (which I highly doubt they're capable of) I have no confidence it will survive the hiatus before they throw more spanners in the works. I am beyond bored with it now.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2014-02-11 16:42
Quote:
#127 Shelby2 Amen to your comment. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of confidence in these writers bringing the show back from the cliff they have created. What is happening is sad and I fear permanently damaging to the show.
Totally agree. This is my concern too. I believe that they THINK they can write their way out of this mess, but I don't for 3 reasons.

a) I have no confidence they have the talent or understanding of the characters to do it (the decision to have Sam not look for Dean being Exhibit A)

b) I don't share the writers vision for the 'healthier bond'. I like them codependent. I strongly believe it has been a strength not a weakness. For me to lose that would be to lose the heart of the show.

c) there have been too many of these watershed shining moments of honest communication and growth that have then been chucked on the bonfire in the writers increasingly un imaginative attempts to find new stories to tell. It breaks my heart that wonderful moments like in AHBL, SS, Sacrifice are now being devalued and recast as damaging or selfish or evidence that their bond was toxic and corrupt and unhealthy. So even if they write something wonderful (which I highly doubt they're capable of) I have no confidence it will survive the hiatus before they throw more spanners in the works. I am beyond bored with it now.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-11 17:40
Exactly Geordiegirl1967 , even if they pull it off this time, I'll still be waiting for other shoe to drop where they negate everything from before once again. I don't recognize or like this Sam and now I fear where they are headed with Dean.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-11 17:40
Exactly Geordiegirl1967 , even if they pull it off this time, I'll still be waiting for other shoe to drop where they negate everything from before once again. I don't recognize or like this Sam and now I fear where they are headed with Dean.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 04:11
I agree with the concerns about the direction the show is taking. I can see why the PTB feel they should address the problematic aspects of Sam and Dean's relationship, but they didn't need to drag it out over 2 whole seasons. I want a fun, action-packed show not a kitchen-sink drama.

Like others, I'm not confident about that the PTB can pull this off. I'm finding it incredibly depressing that Sam feels he has no reason to live. And while I normally love Dean I certainly don't at the minute, since he seems oblivious to how much he's hurt Sam this season and he refuses to apologise for the trickery and lies.

I hope my fears are unfounded and the PTB have some awesome plan in mind and we're all gonna be blown away. That would make the current sadness worthwhile.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 04:11
I agree with the concerns about the direction the show is taking. I can see why the PTB feel they should address the problematic aspects of Sam and Dean's relationship, but they didn't need to drag it out over 2 whole seasons. I want a fun, action-packed show not a kitchen-sink drama.

Like others, I'm not confident about that the PTB can pull this off. I'm finding it incredibly depressing that Sam feels he has no reason to live. And while I normally love Dean I certainly don't at the minute, since he seems oblivious to how much he's hurt Sam this season and he refuses to apologise for the trickery and lies.

I hope my fears are unfounded and the PTB have some awesome plan in mind and we're all gonna be blown away. That would make the current sadness worthwhile.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 06:08
It wasn't a problem until TPTB made it one in seasons 8 and 9 and season 7 wasn't much better. IMO
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 06:08
It wasn't a problem until TPTB made it one in seasons 8 and 9 and season 7 wasn't much better. IMO
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 11:11
Quoting Prix68:
It wasn't a problem until TPTB made it one in seasons 8 and 9 and season 7 wasn't much better. IMO


I could see problems brewing from the pilot myself. It was neither Sam nor Dean's fault. Just the inevitable result of their screwed-up childhood. Still, doesn't mean the PTB had to tackle it the way they decided to go. I just hope they know what they're doing.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 11:11
Quote:
It wasn't a problem until TPTB made it one in seasons 8 and 9 and season 7 wasn't much better. IMO
I could see problems brewing from the pilot myself. It was neither Sam nor Dean's fault. Just the inevitable result of their screwed-up childhood. Still, doesn't mean the PTB had to tackle it the way they decided to go. I just hope they know what they're doing.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-12 11:34
"Like others, I'm not confident about that the PTB can pull this off. I'm finding it incredibly depressing that Sam feels he has no reason to live. And while I normally love Dean I certainly don't at the minute, since he seems oblivious to how much he's hurt Sam this season and he refuses to apologise for the trickery and lies."
I'm not buying that Sam's suicidal and as for Dean apologizing w/o Sam realizing that he's been a part of the problem, too? No thanks. That's the blueprint for how they've usually attempted to "fix" things for good in the past. And it hasn't worked for no few of us since S4-not S8. The resolution will again be everything and if all the blame is just pinned on Dean again by having just and only Dean apologize over GadZeke, then they will get another Fail from many in the fandom-especial ly after this last horribly written scene if it was meant to show Sam as "caring" at all or being understanding at all of Dean's feelings and thoughts. It's a TWO-way street that's not being walked by either of them-not just Dean-and it's been that way since S5 for me. BOTH should apologize or nether should. I would be fine with Dean conveying that he just can't promise to do what Sam would do or what Sam wants or is asking Dean to do-because he likely can't and I'd like to be as "honest" about that as Sam has been. THEN, they can decide whether and if they still want to hunt together.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-12 11:34
"Like others, I'm not confident about that the PTB can pull this off. I'm finding it incredibly depressing that Sam feels he has no reason to live. And while I normally love Dean I certainly don't at the minute, since he seems oblivious to how much he's hurt Sam this season and he refuses to apologise for the trickery and lies."
I'm not buying that Sam's suicidal and as for Dean apologizing w/o Sam realizing that he's been a part of the problem, too? No thanks. That's the blueprint for how they've usually attempted to "fix" things for good in the past. And it hasn't worked for no few of us since S4-not S8. The resolution will again be everything and if all the blame is just pinned on Dean again by having just and only Dean apologize over GadZeke, then they will get another Fail from many in the fandom-especial ly after this last horribly written scene if it was meant to show Sam as "caring" at all or being understanding at all of Dean's feelings and thoughts. It's a TWO-way street that's not being walked by either of them-not just Dean-and it's been that way since S5 for me. BOTH should apologize or nether should. I would be fine with Dean conveying that he just can't promise to do what Sam would do or what Sam wants or is asking Dean to do-because he likely can't and I'd like to be as "honest" about that as Sam has been. THEN, they can decide whether and if they still want to hunt together.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-12 12:57
sorry-"I'd like DEAN to be as honest about that as Sam has been."

I would love nothing more than to see the codependency issues addressed and done away with for good-but not by their attempting to put all of the blame for them on just Dean again and some more as they've tried to do in the past more than once.
Shelby2
# Shelby2 2014-02-12 12:57
sorry-"I'd like DEAN to be as honest about that as Sam has been."

I would love nothing more than to see the codependency issues addressed and done away with for good-but not by their attempting to put all of the blame for them on just Dean again and some more as they've tried to do in the past more than once.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-12 13:47
I just don't see this as a Sam vs Dean problem. I see this as an attempt by tptb to correct several seasons of Sam and Dean making choices that have caused global destruction. Maybe this is the beginning of the show getting back to "saving people hunting things". We can go line by line through out the entire run of the series and come up with evidence to support how wronged our favorite brother has been. But that does little to further the discussion of where do we want the story to go from here. Me personally I would like to see Sam and Dean working together (there are always going to be conflicts) but have the focus more on the people they are trying to save and actually having characters that are worth saving. The show isn't about blame it's has always been about the brothers and their struggles with each other, the supernatural and how they deal with it. Each brother has their own distinct personality that they use to solve the problems they face. Some fans will sympathize with one more than the other but the point should be that the people and the world gets saved not just Sam or Dean. That Is the cycle I think that tptb are trying to break.
I have faith that Jared, Jensen, Jeremy, Robert, the writers, producers and all the rest of the staff are really trying to bring us an entertaining show. I know there is a plan (I kind of hope it isn't going in the direction I think it is) so I am still going to enjoy the ride.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-12 13:47
I just don't see this as a Sam vs Dean problem. I see this as an attempt by tptb to correct several seasons of Sam and Dean making choices that have caused global destruction. Maybe this is the beginning of the show getting back to "saving people hunting things". We can go line by line through out the entire run of the series and come up with evidence to support how wronged our favorite brother has been. But that does little to further the discussion of where do we want the story to go from here. Me personally I would like to see Sam and Dean working together (there are always going to be conflicts) but have the focus more on the people they are trying to save and actually having characters that are worth saving. The show isn't about blame it's has always been about the brothers and their struggles with each other, the supernatural and how they deal with it. Each brother has their own distinct personality that they use to solve the problems they face. Some fans will sympathize with one more than the other but the point should be that the people and the world gets saved not just Sam or Dean. That Is the cycle I think that tptb are trying to break.
I have faith that Jared, Jensen, Jeremy, Robert, the writers, producers and all the rest of the staff are really trying to bring us an entertaining show. I know there is a plan (I kind of hope it isn't going in the direction I think it is) so I am still going to enjoy the ride.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 14:21
Quoting cheryl42:
I just don't see this as a Sam vs Dean problem. I see this as an attempt by tptb to correct several seasons of Sam and Dean making choices that have caused global destruction. Maybe this is the beginning of the show getting back to "saving people hunting things". We can go line by line through out the entire run of the series and come up with evidence to support how wronged our favorite brother has been. But that does little to further the discussion of where do we want the story to go from here. Me personally I would like to see Sam and Dean working together (there are always going to be conflicts) but have the focus more on the people they are trying to save and actually having characters that are worth saving. The show isn't about blame it's has always been about the brothers and their struggles with each other, the supernatural and how they deal with it. Each brother has their own distinct personality that they use to solve the problems they face. Some fans will sympathize with one more than the other but the point should be that the people and the world gets saved not just Sam or Dean. That Is the cycle I think that tptb are trying to break.
I have faith that Jared, Jensen, Jeremy, Robert, the writers, producers and all the rest of the staff are really trying to bring us an entertaining show. I know there is a plan (I kind of hope it isn't going in the direction I think it is) so I am still going to enjoy the ride.


Hi Cheryl42! I agree that in the past the show has never presented the issues between the brothers as "pick one, Sam or Dean." I know I went all the way through season 4 never once thinking I didn't understand or hurt for each brother.

I do think if Sam's statements were supposed to be accepted as the truth finally stated and an example of his maturity, then the show itself is pushing a Sam vs Dean tone I've never felt before, and don't like.

I also have a different way of viewing the boys' decisions over the past seasons, because I don't see them as making choices that cause global destruction.

When Dean made his deal for Sam, he did indeed fall into the plan made by the archangels and demons. But the love he demonstrated there is also the love he drew on when he showed up at Stull's Cemetary and helped Sam battle Lucifer. I don't think we were supposed to think that if Dean had not chosen to save Sam, the archangels and demons would have thrown their hands up in the air and retired to heaven and hell. They had contingency plans with the other special children and with Adam.

What I took from the story is that the only chance the world had at free will rather than the Apocalypse fate was through Sam and Dean. The other children and Adam could not stand up to the massive forces manipulating them.

Sam and Dean had their troubles too, but what looked like their weakness - love and family - was in fact their strength. Their bond was used against them, but when the bad guys tried to break it, they couldn't, and Sam and Dean drew the strength they needed from it. And only they had been shaped by these same forces to rely so much on each other and to see family as the basic building block of their values. That view of family is what saved the world. Without it, Sam and Dean would have utlimately failed and so would Jake and Adam.

When Sam decided to risk coming back from the Cage so as not to leave his brother alone, that allowed the boys to battle Leviathans together - and they weren't responsible for the Levis being in the world unless we think they're responsible for Cas's hubris. I think we're supposed to be following Cas's journey to understanding what free will means to angels and why God decided to extend it to them. This story has high stakes and there are casualties.

When Dean talked Sam out of completing the Trials, I thought his reasoning was sound. Closing the gates for payback was never a well researched decision. The boys didn't know what the impact would be on the universe. They aren't God. The tablets were not meant for humans. Dean accepted Sam's sacrifice was warranted to stop the Apocalypse, because they knew what would happen if they didn't. He helped Sam jump into the pit. But he didn't see why Sam's sacrifice was necessary in the church. He and Sam know more than they ever have and they are most effective fighting together.

If Sam had closed the gates, Metatron would still be in heaven and still have wanted Kevin dead. The angels would still have fallen and would still be gathering for war. The only change would be Abbadon may not have been brought back, although she wouldn't have been locked up in hell either, and she is immortal.

And Dean would be fighting all this on his own, rather than with Sam. Which makes him less effective. I don't see how that helps the world.

I always accepted Chuck's view of the first five seasons: the Winchesters did alright. Changing fate itself is no small achievement.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 14:21
Quote:
I just don't see this as a Sam vs Dean problem. I see this as an attempt by tptb to correct several seasons of Sam and Dean making choices that have caused global destruction. Maybe this is the beginning of the show getting back to "saving people hunting things". We can go line by line through out the entire run of the series and come up with evidence to support how wronged our favorite brother has been. But that does little to further the discussion of where do we want the story to go from here. Me personally I would like to see Sam and Dean working together (there are always going to be conflicts) but have the focus more on the people they are trying to save and actually having characters that are worth saving. The show isn't about blame it's has always been about the brothers and their struggles with each other, the supernatural and how they deal with it. Each brother has their own distinct personality that they use to solve the problems they face. Some fans will sympathize with one more than the other but the point should be that the people and the world gets saved not just Sam or Dean. That Is the cycle I think that tptb are trying to break.
I have faith that Jared, Jensen, Jeremy, Robert, the writers, producers and all the rest of the staff are really trying to bring us an entertaining show. I know there is a plan (I kind of hope it isn't going in the direction I think it is) so I am still going to enjoy the ride.
Hi Cheryl42! I agree that in the past the show has never presented the issues between the brothers as "pick one, Sam or Dean." I know I went all the way through season 4 never once thinking I didn't understand or hurt for each brother.

I do think if Sam's statements were supposed to be accepted as the truth finally stated and an example of his maturity, then the show itself is pushing a Sam vs Dean tone I've never felt before, and don't like.

I also have a different way of viewing the boys' decisions over the past seasons, because I don't see them as making choices that cause global destruction.

When Dean made his deal for Sam, he did indeed fall into the plan made by the archangels and demons. But the love he demonstrated there is also the love he drew on when he showed up at Stull's Cemetary and helped Sam battle Lucifer. I don't think we were supposed to think that if Dean had not chosen to save Sam, the archangels and demons would have thrown their hands up in the air and retired to heaven and hell. They had contingency plans with the other special children and with Adam.

What I took from the story is that the only chance the world had at free will rather than the Apocalypse fate was through Sam and Dean. The other children and Adam could not stand up to the massive forces manipulating them.

Sam and Dean had their troubles too, but what looked like their weakness - love and family - was in fact their strength. Their bond was used against them, but when the bad guys tried to break it, they couldn't, and Sam and Dean drew the strength they needed from it. And only they had been shaped by these same forces to rely so much on each other and to see family as the basic building block of their values. That view of family is what saved the world. Without it, Sam and Dean would have utlimately failed and so would Jake and Adam.

When Sam decided to risk coming back from the Cage so as not to leave his brother alone, that allowed the boys to battle Leviathans together - and they weren't responsible for the Levis being in the world unless we think they're responsible for Cas's hubris. I think we're supposed to be following Cas's journey to understanding what free will means to angels and why God decided to extend it to them. This story has high stakes and there are casualties.

When Dean talked Sam out of completing the Trials, I thought his reasoning was sound. Closing the gates for payback was never a well researched decision. The boys didn't know what the impact would be on the universe. They aren't God. The tablets were not meant for humans. Dean accepted Sam's sacrifice was warranted to stop the Apocalypse, because they knew what would happen if they didn't. He helped Sam jump into the pit. But he didn't see why Sam's sacrifice was necessary in the church. He and Sam know more than they ever have and they are most effective fighting together.

If Sam had closed the gates, Metatron would still be in heaven and still have wanted Kevin dead. The angels would still have fallen and would still be gathering for war. The only change would be Abbadon may not have been brought back, although she wouldn't have been locked up in hell either, and she is immortal.

And Dean would be fighting all this on his own, rather than with Sam. Which makes him less effective. I don't see how that helps the world.

I always accepted Chuck's view of the first five seasons: the Winchesters did alright. Changing fate itself is no small achievement.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 14:55
Quoting Shelby2:

I'm not buying that Sam's suicidal


The show has shown us Sam being suicidal over and over again. I'm baffled.

Quoting Shelby2:

if all the blame is just pinned on Dean again by having just and only Dean apologize over GadZeke,


Dean IS fully responsible for the GadZeke situation. Sam agreed to live, true. But he could not know that Dean was tricking him into being possessed by an (effectively unknown) angel.

Quoting Shelby2:

as for Dean apologizing w/o Sam realizing that he's been a part of the problem, too? No thanks. That's the blueprint for how they've usually attempted to "fix" things for good in the past. And it hasn't worked for no few of us since S4


Sam does apologise, so I cannot agree with you here either. Sam apologised and twice admitted full responsibility for letting Lucifer out of the cage in S5. Sam apologised for Soulless Sam's actions repeatedly in S6. Please read the transcripts if you don't believe me.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 14:55
Quote:

I'm not buying that Sam's suicidal
The show has shown us Sam being suicidal over and over again. I'm baffled.

Quote:

if all the blame is just pinned on Dean again by having just and only Dean apologize over GadZeke,
Dean IS fully responsible for the GadZeke situation. Sam agreed to live, true. But he could not know that Dean was tricking him into being possessed by an (effectively unknown) angel.

Quote:

as for Dean apologizing w/o Sam realizing that he's been a part of the problem, too? No thanks. That's the blueprint for how they've usually attempted to "fix" things for good in the past. And it hasn't worked for no few of us since S4
Sam does apologise, so I cannot agree with you here either. Sam apologised and twice admitted full responsibility for letting Lucifer out of the cage in S5. Sam apologised for Soulless Sam's actions repeatedly in S6. Please read the transcripts if you don't believe me.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-12 15:12
Gerry You are right of course that the show is about the brothers and there would not be a show if there weren't both of them. I was just speaking generally that when they make decisions to save each other their seems to be unforeseen collateral damage, i.e. Kevin in this case. While agree that Kevin might still have died it might have been more difficult with him in the bunker hidden from supernatural forces. Gadreel wouldn't have been let in. If Metatron could have killed Kevin why did he need Gadreel's help to do it. I just assumed it was because he couldn't get in. Dean wanted to save Sam not the world. Sam saw his sacrifice as acceptable in the church in order that more people wouldn't die. That is the perspective of each brother. And by that I mean that is what Sam saw Dean doing in the church. And that is what Dean saw Sam doing in the church. I thought that is why Sam said to Dean you wanted to save me for you not for me. Dean of course doesn't feel that way. To him Sam must survive because there ain't no me if there ain't no you. I thought that was what the conversation was about in TP. The two brothers coming to a situation with there own distinct personalities coloring their motivations. I am not saying that S1-5 were poorly executed on the contrary it was a masterpiece. But the first deal by Mary on down to Dean did have globally destructive consequences that I think the writers have kind of rehashed to death. I was really trying to come up with a positive result for the brothers maybe to stop the saving each other no matter the outcome. I thought that was what they were trying to do in S8 with Sam. It is a storyline that looks to me like they are going to see through. I don't see the bond between the brothers as forever broken or forever changed. What I see is Sam and Dean learning what they will and won't do to save each other. Did Dean learn something from Sam in that conversation? If Sam is possessed by Abbadon will Dean kill Sam to save him? If Dean goes so dark that he starts to harm innocent people will Sam kill Dean in order to save him? As I said I'm in for the ride. I'm not nearly as articulate as you are or as well versed in the SPN universe. So I apologize if I'm not making my point very well. I am just a glass half full viewer. By the way your review was as awesome as ever. It was a point of view that really made me think. Evidently by the responses for your review you got a lot of fans thinking.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-12 15:12
Gerry You are right of course that the show is about the brothers and there would not be a show if there weren't both of them. I was just speaking generally that when they make decisions to save each other their seems to be unforeseen collateral damage, i.e. Kevin in this case. While agree that Kevin might still have died it might have been more difficult with him in the bunker hidden from supernatural forces. Gadreel wouldn't have been let in. If Metatron could have killed Kevin why did he need Gadreel's help to do it. I just assumed it was because he couldn't get in. Dean wanted to save Sam not the world. Sam saw his sacrifice as acceptable in the church in order that more people wouldn't die. That is the perspective of each brother. And by that I mean that is what Sam saw Dean doing in the church. And that is what Dean saw Sam doing in the church. I thought that is why Sam said to Dean you wanted to save me for you not for me. Dean of course doesn't feel that way. To him Sam must survive because there ain't no me if there ain't no you. I thought that was what the conversation was about in TP. The two brothers coming to a situation with there own distinct personalities coloring their motivations. I am not saying that S1-5 were poorly executed on the contrary it was a masterpiece. But the first deal by Mary on down to Dean did have globally destructive consequences that I think the writers have kind of rehashed to death. I was really trying to come up with a positive result for the brothers maybe to stop the saving each other no matter the outcome. I thought that was what they were trying to do in S8 with Sam. It is a storyline that looks to me like they are going to see through. I don't see the bond between the brothers as forever broken or forever changed. What I see is Sam and Dean learning what they will and won't do to save each other. Did Dean learn something from Sam in that conversation? If Sam is possessed by Abbadon will Dean kill Sam to save him? If Dean goes so dark that he starts to harm innocent people will Sam kill Dean in order to save him? As I said I'm in for the ride. I'm not nearly as articulate as you are or as well versed in the SPN universe. So I apologize if I'm not making my point very well. I am just a glass half full viewer. By the way your review was as awesome as ever. It was a point of view that really made me think. Evidently by the responses for your review you got a lot of fans thinking.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 15:20
And Dean has apologized to Sam in the past. At the end of "Fallen Idols" and at the end of "The End" just for two and I'm sure there are others. Dean has also admitted that he broke the first seal and has some responsibility for letting Lucifer out. What has that got to do with the way Sam is talking to Dean now? Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 15:20
And Dean has apologized to Sam in the past. At the end of "Fallen Idols" and at the end of "The End" just for two and I'm sure there are others. Dean has also admitted that he broke the first seal and has some responsibility for letting Lucifer out. What has that got to do with the way Sam is talking to Dean now? Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-12 15:36
Quoting Prix68:
And Dean has apologized to Sam in the past. At the end of "Fallen Idols" and at the end of "The End" just for two and I'm sure there are others. Dean has also admitted that he broke the first seal and has some responsibility for letting Lucifer out. What has that got to do with the way Sam is talking to Dean now? Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.

Not really sure what difference that makes ?.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-12 15:36
Quote:
And Dean has apologized to Sam in the past. At the end of "Fallen Idols" and at the end of "The End" just for two and I'm sure there are others. Dean has also admitted that he broke the first seal and has some responsibility for letting Lucifer out. What has that got to do with the way Sam is talking to Dean now? Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.
Not really sure what difference that makes ?.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 15:53
Quoting Prix68:
And Dean has apologized to Sam in the past. At the end of "Fallen Idols" and at the end of "The End" just for two and I'm sure there are others. Dean has also admitted that he broke the first seal and has some responsibility for letting Lucifer out.


I never said Dean didn't apologise. I was just disagreeing with Shelby's implication that the show has ONLY had Dean apologising since S4.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 15:53
Quote:
And Dean has apologized to Sam in the past. At the end of "Fallen Idols" and at the end of "The End" just for two and I'm sure there are others. Dean has also admitted that he broke the first seal and has some responsibility for letting Lucifer out.
I never said Dean didn't apologise. I was just disagreeing with Shelby's implication that the show has ONLY had Dean apologising since S4.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 16:07
Quoting Prix68:
Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.


Hate to break it to you but at the end of Sharp Teeth:

SAM
... Or -- or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can't trust you -- not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.12_Sharp_Teeth_(transcript)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 16:07
Quote:
Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.
Hate to break it to you but at the end of Sharp Teeth:

SAM
... Or -- or tricking me into letting Gadreel possess me? I can't trust you -- not the way I thought I could, not the way I should be able to.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.12_Sharp_Teeth_(transcript)
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 16:14
Quoting Manzanita Crow:
[quote name="Prix68"] Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.


Also at the end of Road Trip
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.10_Road_Trip

Sam: So what, you decide to trick me into being possessed by some...psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what. I was willing to die. And now...Kevin.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 16:14
Quote:
Oddly in Sam's two honesty speeches the only thing he hasn't mentioned is being possessed by an angel, only being kept alive.
Also at the end of Road Trip
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=9.10_Road_Trip

Sam: So what, you decide to trick me into being possessed by some...psycho angel?
Dean: He saved your life.
Sam: So what. I was willing to die. And now...Kevin.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-12 16:19
To me it all boils down to Dean talking Sam's Free Will away. I remember when he talked about it constantly during season 5, how paramount it was to him, and of course, how Team Free Will came to be. Free Will as a notion was unshakable then. Why not now?

It's a major writing failure when Sam's harsh words are seen by many as worse that Dean taking that Free Will away, tricking Sam into becoming an angel meatsuit (also unthinkable during S5) and lying about all of it for months.

How can Sam forgive and move on if Dean doesn't even seek forgiveness and in fact states that he'd do it all over again? How is that supposed to work?

I agree that the guys don't understand each other and the depth of their respective pain. But I don't think that Sam will be ready to listen and hopefully help Dean until he can start trusting him again and, to me, it starts with Dean owning what he did.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-12 16:19
To me it all boils down to Dean talking Sam's Free Will away. I remember when he talked about it constantly during season 5, how paramount it was to him, and of course, how Team Free Will came to be. Free Will as a notion was unshakable then. Why not now?

It's a major writing failure when Sam's harsh words are seen by many as worse that Dean taking that Free Will away, tricking Sam into becoming an angel meatsuit (also unthinkable during S5) and lying about all of it for months.

How can Sam forgive and move on if Dean doesn't even seek forgiveness and in fact states that he'd do it all over again? How is that supposed to work?

I agree that the guys don't understand each other and the depth of their respective pain. But I don't think that Sam will be ready to listen and hopefully help Dean until he can start trusting him again and, to me, it starts with Dean owning what he did.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 16:42
JuliaG, I don't disagree with how you see the issue--that's the way I expected the writers to frame it when Sam expressed himself.

Where this doesn't work for me is that Sam's framework is much broader. Free will had nothing to do with the church scene. Sam made his choice. He seems to now regard Dean's view of family as being responsible for every bad thing they've had to work through. And that Dean has caused more harm than good in the world.

I'm not pulling for Dean to own the way Sam framed his issues, because I think he made the scope so large it became inaccurate and unfair.

Hopefully, the writers are planning on narrowing that scope down to the issue at hand, which Dean does need to own.

Even there, I think there is a conversation to be had. Dean is focused on Sam's willingness to die and how he can't accept that. He's not dealing with the fact he concealed what he did once Sam was healed enough to have a say.

Sam's focused on how betrayed he feels about having his free will taken away. He's not dealing with his own attitude to death, even though it upset him when he realized Dean was willing to die for the Trials.

I hope there's a middle ground to be found, where Dean acknowledges he needed to bring Sam in the loop as soon as he was able, despite Ezekiel's efforts to dissuade. He owed Sam the truth and that's what Sam has the right to expect in their relationship.

Sam for his part could acknowledge he has some self-examinatio n to do about his view he still needs to atone, and understand Dean is never going to find it easy to let go of a brother he raised. It's not selfishness; it's the result of their different positions in the family. And he could also remember how hurt he was when he thought Dean felt closer to Benny. He's given mixed signals on how he defines autonomy.

If what comes out of this is Dean affirming to Sam he can count on Dean to tell him the truth and accept his decision in a case like this, I'll be happy. I also hope Sam works through his feeling his role is to be a sacrifice and comes out the other side. I'll be happy about that, too. But the brothers deciding they need to stop saving each other, that the mission is more important than the family? Not so much. I really liked the way Kripke collapsed that particular dichotomy.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 16:42
JuliaG, I don't disagree with how you see the issue--that's the way I expected the writers to frame it when Sam expressed himself.

Where this doesn't work for me is that Sam's framework is much broader. Free will had nothing to do with the church scene. Sam made his choice. He seems to now regard Dean's view of family as being responsible for every bad thing they've had to work through. And that Dean has caused more harm than good in the world.

I'm not pulling for Dean to own the way Sam framed his issues, because I think he made the scope so large it became inaccurate and unfair.

Hopefully, the writers are planning on narrowing that scope down to the issue at hand, which Dean does need to own.

Even there, I think there is a conversation to be had. Dean is focused on Sam's willingness to die and how he can't accept that. He's not dealing with the fact he concealed what he did once Sam was healed enough to have a say.

Sam's focused on how betrayed he feels about having his free will taken away. He's not dealing with his own attitude to death, even though it upset him when he realized Dean was willing to die for the Trials.

I hope there's a middle ground to be found, where Dean acknowledges he needed to bring Sam in the loop as soon as he was able, despite Ezekiel's efforts to dissuade. He owed Sam the truth and that's what Sam has the right to expect in their relationship.

Sam for his part could acknowledge he has some self-examinatio n to do about his view he still needs to atone, and understand Dean is never going to find it easy to let go of a brother he raised. It's not selfishness; it's the result of their different positions in the family. And he could also remember how hurt he was when he thought Dean felt closer to Benny. He's given mixed signals on how he defines autonomy.

If what comes out of this is Dean affirming to Sam he can count on Dean to tell him the truth and accept his decision in a case like this, I'll be happy. I also hope Sam works through his feeling his role is to be a sacrifice and comes out the other side. I'll be happy about that, too. But the brothers deciding they need to stop saving each other, that the mission is more important than the family? Not so much. I really liked the way Kripke collapsed that particular dichotomy.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 17:18
Gerry I can get on board for that but I worry the PTB have not shown an ability to take us there. Dean did want to tell Sam earlier but Gadreel stopped him. I think Dean had started to realize, but didn't want to face, that getting Gadreel out might not be so easy and he might have done all this and Sam die anyway. Doing something Sam didn't want for nothing would have been truly unthinkable.

On the other hand to embrace what Sam said in the last episode as truth is to make Dean the biggest monster in the SPN world. Harmful to the world at large to further his own agenda not to be alone.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 17:18
Gerry I can get on board for that but I worry the PTB have not shown an ability to take us there. Dean did want to tell Sam earlier but Gadreel stopped him. I think Dean had started to realize, but didn't want to face, that getting Gadreel out might not be so easy and he might have done all this and Sam die anyway. Doing something Sam didn't want for nothing would have been truly unthinkable.

On the other hand to embrace what Sam said in the last episode as truth is to make Dean the biggest monster in the SPN world. Harmful to the world at large to further his own agenda not to be alone.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-12 17:36
In Dean's mind yes , he risked a decision he knew that under no circumstances Sam would accept. I know that speech did not go down well but however anyone interpret's it , there was actually some truth in what Sam said.

And in saying it alot of credence has to be given to where Sam is now , literally coming off learning the truth and learning that once again a possession resulted in a innocent Death in Kevin. He can be accused of being unfair or even stabbing the 'brotherhood' in the back because he has to know that Dean would go to any lengths to 'save' him .

If we are to take Sam's truth then we take Dean's that Benny is a better brother than Sam has ever been and Sam has been deceiving Dean's ride since day 1. Clearly the 'brothers relationship' is a emotive subject and that it will mean many things to many people .But this current situation would not of arisen if Dean had not decided that his edict to Sam save at any price had not overidden everything Sam hated .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-12 17:36
In Dean's mind yes , he risked a decision he knew that under no circumstances Sam would accept. I know that speech did not go down well but however anyone interpret's it , there was actually some truth in what Sam said.

And in saying it alot of credence has to be given to where Sam is now , literally coming off learning the truth and learning that once again a possession resulted in a innocent Death in Kevin. He can be accused of being unfair or even stabbing the 'brotherhood' in the back because he has to know that Dean would go to any lengths to 'save' him .

If we are to take Sam's truth then we take Dean's that Benny is a better brother than Sam has ever been and Sam has been deceiving Dean's ride since day 1. Clearly the 'brothers relationship' is a emotive subject and that it will mean many things to many people .But this current situation would not of arisen if Dean had not decided that his edict to Sam save at any price had not overidden everything Sam hated .
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 17:59
Quoting Gerry:

I'm not pulling for Dean to own the way Sam framed his issues, because I think he made the scope so large it became inaccurate and unfair.

Hopefully, the writers are planning on narrowing that scope down to the issue at hand, which Dean does need to own.


I agree, Sam's statement did make things too broad. He's only just found out about a lot of traumatic things, so he's angry and hasn't worked out exactly what he thinks and feels yet.

I know what my friends, family and I are like when we get hurt. Even after relatively minor upsets, people generally spout 2-weeks-worth of angry gibberish before they say anything coherent. Since Kevin died at Sam's hands I expect it will take longer for Sam to process it all and start making sense.

So yes, Sam's statements have not been focused and I hope the writers allow him to gradually pin down the issue at hand. That would be both be true to human nature (realism from SPN! Heaven forbid! :D ) AND allow the brothers to sort out their mutual problems.

I want the brotherly banter back. And I desperately want Sam and Dean to realise they have worth in themselves, and not purely as a sacrifice or protector respectively.
Manzanita Crow
# Manzanita Crow 2014-02-12 17:59
Quote:

I'm not pulling for Dean to own the way Sam framed his issues, because I think he made the scope so large it became inaccurate and unfair.

Hopefully, the writers are planning on narrowing that scope down to the issue at hand, which Dean does need to own.
I agree, Sam's statement did make things too broad. He's only just found out about a lot of traumatic things, so he's angry and hasn't worked out exactly what he thinks and feels yet.

I know what my friends, family and I are like when we get hurt. Even after relatively minor upsets, people generally spout 2-weeks-worth of angry gibberish before they say anything coherent. Since Kevin died at Sam's hands I expect it will take longer for Sam to process it all and start making sense.

So yes, Sam's statements have not been focused and I hope the writers allow him to gradually pin down the issue at hand. That would be both be true to human nature (realism from SPN! Heaven forbid! :D ) AND allow the brothers to sort out their mutual problems.

I want the brotherly banter back. And I desperately want Sam and Dean to realise they have worth in themselves, and not purely as a sacrifice or protector respectively.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 18:35
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 18:35
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 18:46
Quoting Manzanita Crow:


I want the brotherly banter back. And I desperately want Sam and Dean to realise they have worth in themselves, and not purely as a sacrifice or protector respectively.


Yes, this is exactly what I was hoping for from this arc: both brothers examining themselves. Dean has to own to Sam what we saw him realize throughout the arc: he owed Sam the truth about something he knew went to Sam's core. His gut told him to tell Sam immediately, but Gadreel talked him out of it. His gut told him again when Sam was upset about what the goddess told him. Gadreel with a hint of menace talked him out of it again. Dean knew what to do and he didn't do it. That's on him.

But Sam also needs to own his sense of self-worth is skewed in a way that worried him immensely when he saw the same thing in Dean last season. I hope we see him realize he does want to be alive and he's doesn't need to be a sacrifice to have self-worth. Sam Winchester is loveable as himself and he's more than made up for poor decisions made under terrible conditions. I guess there is some hope the writers may be going there, as Cas basically said just this to Sam.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 18:46
Quote:


I want the brotherly banter back. And I desperately want Sam and Dean to realise they have worth in themselves, and not purely as a sacrifice or protector respectively.
Yes, this is exactly what I was hoping for from this arc: both brothers examining themselves. Dean has to own to Sam what we saw him realize throughout the arc: he owed Sam the truth about something he knew went to Sam's core. His gut told him to tell Sam immediately, but Gadreel talked him out of it. His gut told him again when Sam was upset about what the goddess told him. Gadreel with a hint of menace talked him out of it again. Dean knew what to do and he didn't do it. That's on him.

But Sam also needs to own his sense of self-worth is skewed in a way that worried him immensely when he saw the same thing in Dean last season. I hope we see him realize he does want to be alive and he's doesn't need to be a sacrifice to have self-worth. Sam Winchester is loveable as himself and he's more than made up for poor decisions made under terrible conditions. I guess there is some hope the writers may be going there, as Cas basically said just this to Sam.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 18:51
Quoting Prix68:
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.


I know this is very emotional issue on all sides of the coin. I think Alice had the right advice when she said to keep the discussion to the episode, rather than other posters, though, as that derails discussion.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-12 18:51
Quote:
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.
I know this is very emotional issue on all sides of the coin. I think Alice had the right advice when she said to keep the discussion to the episode, rather than other posters, though, as that derails discussion.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 19:04
My bad for letting my irritation get the best of me.
Prix68
# Prix68 2014-02-12 19:04
My bad for letting my irritation get the best of me.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-12 23:44
Gerry,

I just don't agree with 2 points in particular:

I don't think that Sam's attitude toward death can mitigate what Dean did. They both had an incredibly hard life. They've both been suicidal/not caring about living at different times during the show, Sam no more than Dean. And Sam didn't have a gun to his head when Dean took his free will away. He was accepting his imminent death. There was nothing wrong with his attitude to death at that time, so Dean wasn'' justified in what he did IMO. When Sam had the wrong outlook was when he wanted the grace out of him even if it killed him after finding out about Gadreel. I agree he had to be convinced otherwise (not tricked), but that was a completely different scenario.

And about Dean finding it hard to let Sam go and it's not selfishness. I think it's both. As you say, because of their position in the family, I fully understand that Dean has a hard time letting Sam be his own man but I thought there was no question that tricking Sam into something he's rather die than abide was selfish. Very much so.

Also about Benny. Sam wasn't hurt because Dean was closer to Benny, he was hurt because he thought that Dean trusted Benny more than him. It's always been about being trusted and valued for Sam. I don't think it has to do with autonomy; it's more about Sam being desperate for Dean's approval, his unhealthy co-dependency to his brother.

Otherwise, I agree about the fact that Sam's issue was framed too broadly and that's partly what I meant about "writing failure". Sam has a legitimate reason for being hurt and angry and the writers aren't doing it justice.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-12 23:44
Gerry,

I just don't agree with 2 points in particular:

I don't think that Sam's attitude toward death can mitigate what Dean did. They both had an incredibly hard life. They've both been suicidal/not caring about living at different times during the show, Sam no more than Dean. And Sam didn't have a gun to his head when Dean took his free will away. He was accepting his imminent death. There was nothing wrong with his attitude to death at that time, so Dean wasn'' justified in what he did IMO. When Sam had the wrong outlook was when he wanted the grace out of him even if it killed him after finding out about Gadreel. I agree he had to be convinced otherwise (not tricked), but that was a completely different scenario.

And about Dean finding it hard to let Sam go and it's not selfishness. I think it's both. As you say, because of their position in the family, I fully understand that Dean has a hard time letting Sam be his own man but I thought there was no question that tricking Sam into something he's rather die than abide was selfish. Very much so.

Also about Benny. Sam wasn't hurt because Dean was closer to Benny, he was hurt because he thought that Dean trusted Benny more than him. It's always been about being trusted and valued for Sam. I don't think it has to do with autonomy; it's more about Sam being desperate for Dean's approval, his unhealthy co-dependency to his brother.

Otherwise, I agree about the fact that Sam's issue was framed too broadly and that's partly what I meant about "writing failure". Sam has a legitimate reason for being hurt and angry and the writers aren't doing it justice.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-12 23:54
One last thing Gerry.

I really don't think that Sam was saying that the mission was more important than family or that they would stop saving each other. He said "under the same circumstances", which to me means that he wouldn't take his brother's free will away, he wouldn't trick him and lie about it and that he wouldn't bring Dean back via supernatural means. Right now he might even mean that he wouldn't save Dean under any circumstance if somebody died because of it, but I think that's because he's still shaken up about Kevin's death.

I don't think there's any doubt that Sam would do anything humanly possible to save Dean or that Sam still cares about Dean, otherwise they wouldn't be together right now.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-12 23:54
One last thing Gerry.

I really don't think that Sam was saying that the mission was more important than family or that they would stop saving each other. He said "under the same circumstances", which to me means that he wouldn't take his brother's free will away, he wouldn't trick him and lie about it and that he wouldn't bring Dean back via supernatural means. Right now he might even mean that he wouldn't save Dean under any circumstance if somebody died because of it, but I think that's because he's still shaken up about Kevin's death.

I don't think there's any doubt that Sam would do anything humanly possible to save Dean or that Sam still cares about Dean, otherwise they wouldn't be together right now.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-13 00:37
We can probably agree to disagree on these points. :-)

I think Cas was quite pointed in telling Sam he needed to value his life and I think Sam has been clear that he still feels a need to atone for his past and that he needs to balance his books. In my view, that self-concept strongly suggests he wasn't just accepting. At some level, he called Death to him, which is why the situation wasn't a normal reaping and Death gave him the choice as to whether it was his time.

I also think that calling Dean selfish for not wanting to lose Sam doesn't give Dean much understanding on what he's given up to take care of him -- I'm referring to Sam's understanding here, not yours. All relationships have a degree of selfishness in them. I have a different read on the Benny situation as you know. I think Sam was upset about Benny as soon as he saw how close Dean was to him. There was a degree of selfishness in that response, though that's not all it was and that to me doesn't make Sam selfish. It makes him human with a complicated relationship with his brother. As his brother has with him. I think Sam and Dean need to talk and Dean needs to own that he didn't tell Sam immediately, even though his gut told him it was the right thing. But I think Sam's state of mind when he was letting go is still relevant and I hope we get more exploration of it. I wish the writers didn't have such a poor track record of letting us get a peek into Sam. We go from nothing to huge surprising revelation to nothing. That part of the brother relationship I'd be glad to see change.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-13 00:37
We can probably agree to disagree on these points. :-)

I think Cas was quite pointed in telling Sam he needed to value his life and I think Sam has been clear that he still feels a need to atone for his past and that he needs to balance his books. In my view, that self-concept strongly suggests he wasn't just accepting. At some level, he called Death to him, which is why the situation wasn't a normal reaping and Death gave him the choice as to whether it was his time.

I also think that calling Dean selfish for not wanting to lose Sam doesn't give Dean much understanding on what he's given up to take care of him -- I'm referring to Sam's understanding here, not yours. All relationships have a degree of selfishness in them. I have a different read on the Benny situation as you know. I think Sam was upset about Benny as soon as he saw how close Dean was to him. There was a degree of selfishness in that response, though that's not all it was and that to me doesn't make Sam selfish. It makes him human with a complicated relationship with his brother. As his brother has with him. I think Sam and Dean need to talk and Dean needs to own that he didn't tell Sam immediately, even though his gut told him it was the right thing. But I think Sam's state of mind when he was letting go is still relevant and I hope we get more exploration of it. I wish the writers didn't have such a poor track record of letting us get a peek into Sam. We go from nothing to huge surprising revelation to nothing. That part of the brother relationship I'd be glad to see change.
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-13 00:45
Quoting JuliaG:
One last thing Gerry.

I really don't think that Sam was saying that the mission was more important than family or that they would stop saving each other. He said "under the same circumstances", which to me means that he wouldn't take his brother's free will away, he wouldn't trick him and lie about it and that he wouldn't bring Dean back via supernatural means. Right now he might even mean that he wouldn't save Dean under any circumstance if somebody died because of it, but I think that's because he's still shaken up about Kevin's death.

I don't think there's any doubt that Sam would do anything humanly possible to save Dean or that Sam still cares about Dean, otherwise they wouldn't be together right now.


I think the caring is there, but Sam did tell Dean he can't trust him because he talked him out of shutting the gates and that shows they view their roles differently. Sam is saying the mission trumped Sam"s death. We've also been shown Sam was willing to not search for Dean when he disappeared, so there is some question right now of what he would or wouldn't do. I suspect that question will come up in the remainder of the season and the answer won't be as cut and dried as Sam imagines right now. That's my prediction, anyway. :-)
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-13 00:45
Quote:
One last thing Gerry.

I really don't think that Sam was saying that the mission was more important than family or that they would stop saving each other. He said "under the same circumstances", which to me means that he wouldn't take his brother's free will away, he wouldn't trick him and lie about it and that he wouldn't bring Dean back via supernatural means. Right now he might even mean that he wouldn't save Dean under any circumstance if somebody died because of it, but I think that's because he's still shaken up about Kevin's death.

I don't think there's any doubt that Sam would do anything humanly possible to save Dean or that Sam still cares about Dean, otherwise they wouldn't be together right now.
I think the caring is there, but Sam did tell Dean he can't trust him because he talked him out of shutting the gates and that shows they view their roles differently. Sam is saying the mission trumped Sam"s death. We've also been shown Sam was willing to not search for Dean when he disappeared, so there is some question right now of what he would or wouldn't do. I suspect that question will come up in the remainder of the season and the answer won't be as cut and dried as Sam imagines right now. That's my prediction, anyway. :-)
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-13 11:23
#157 Obviously Sam cares. When he was searching for Dean at the health spa he was frantic. Sam would die for Dean. When he thought that Dean had died in the lab his choice was what Sam would have wanted for himself. Given his own experiences he thought that Dean would want to rest peacefully in heaven than cause more destruction by being brought back by a supernatural deal. Dean doesn't have the same life experiences as Sam so of course he looks at the same situation differently. Dean has been programed to save Sam at any price. Truthfully that was the most troubling statement of the whole conversation for me. Dean told Sam he would do It again. Knowing the outcome, knowing that Kevin would die, Dean would do it again. If I were Sam I wouldn't trust Dean either. Which is why he said that Dean didn't mind doing the sacrificing as long as he wasn't the one getting hurt. Again Sam is looking at this through his own experiences, his own point of view. Of course it isn't as cut and dried as that. I think like you that we are going to see how far Sam will go to save Dean. And what about Dean. Will he now kill Sam? Under the same circumstances what will Dean do. This is what has me intrigued for the rest of the season. What lessons have each of these guys learned and how will it affect what they do for and to each other in the future.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-13 11:23
#157 Obviously Sam cares. When he was searching for Dean at the health spa he was frantic. Sam would die for Dean. When he thought that Dean had died in the lab his choice was what Sam would have wanted for himself. Given his own experiences he thought that Dean would want to rest peacefully in heaven than cause more destruction by being brought back by a supernatural deal. Dean doesn't have the same life experiences as Sam so of course he looks at the same situation differently. Dean has been programed to save Sam at any price. Truthfully that was the most troubling statement of the whole conversation for me. Dean told Sam he would do It again. Knowing the outcome, knowing that Kevin would die, Dean would do it again. If I were Sam I wouldn't trust Dean either. Which is why he said that Dean didn't mind doing the sacrificing as long as he wasn't the one getting hurt. Again Sam is looking at this through his own experiences, his own point of view. Of course it isn't as cut and dried as that. I think like you that we are going to see how far Sam will go to save Dean. And what about Dean. Will he now kill Sam? Under the same circumstances what will Dean do. This is what has me intrigued for the rest of the season. What lessons have each of these guys learned and how will it affect what they do for and to each other in the future.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-13 15:29
Gerry, I didn't call Dean selfish for not wanting to lose Sam. I called the decision to bring Sam back by being possessed selfish. There's a difference there. Sam would never have wanted that after Lucifer and Dean knew it, but he did it anyways; not for Sam, but for himself. As you said, both guys have acted selfishly at times. Now it's Dean's turn. IMO.

If I understand you correctly, it seems like you think that the lying after the fact is Dean's worst offence. I think that Dean disrespecting Sam's wishes and the possession are worse. I just don't agree that somehow Sam called Death to him and that there was much of a choice there. The doctors had done all they could and Sam was dying. What's wrong with going to Heaven when it's your time?

Anyways, let's agree to disagree!
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2014-02-13 15:29
Gerry, I didn't call Dean selfish for not wanting to lose Sam. I called the decision to bring Sam back by being possessed selfish. There's a difference there. Sam would never have wanted that after Lucifer and Dean knew it, but he did it anyways; not for Sam, but for himself. As you said, both guys have acted selfishly at times. Now it's Dean's turn. IMO.

If I understand you correctly, it seems like you think that the lying after the fact is Dean's worst offence. I think that Dean disrespecting Sam's wishes and the possession are worse. I just don't agree that somehow Sam called Death to him and that there was much of a choice there. The doctors had done all they could and Sam was dying. What's wrong with going to Heaven when it's your time?

Anyways, let's agree to disagree!
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-13 15:39
Quoting JuliaG:
Gerry, I didn't call Dean selfish for not wanting to lose Sam. I called the decision to bring Sam back by being possessed selfish. There's a difference there. Sam would never have wanted that after Lucifer and Dean knew it, but he did it anyways; not for Sam, but for himself. As you said, both guys have acted selfishly at times. Now it's Dean's turn. IMO.

If I understand you correctly, it seems like you think that the lying after the fact is Dean's worst offence. I think that Dean disrespecting Sam's wishes and the possession are worse. I just don't agree that somehow Sam called Death to him and that there was much of a choice there. The doctors had done all they could and Sam was dying. What's wrong with going to Heaven when it's your time?

Anyways, let's agree to disagree!


No problem. :-) I think some of this will become clearer as the last part of the season unfolds. I enjoyed the discussion!
Gerry
# Gerry 2014-02-13 15:39
Quote:
Gerry, I didn't call Dean selfish for not wanting to lose Sam. I called the decision to bring Sam back by being possessed selfish. There's a difference there. Sam would never have wanted that after Lucifer and Dean knew it, but he did it anyways; not for Sam, but for himself. As you said, both guys have acted selfishly at times. Now it's Dean's turn. IMO.

If I understand you correctly, it seems like you think that the lying after the fact is Dean's worst offence. I think that Dean disrespecting Sam's wishes and the possession are worse. I just don't agree that somehow Sam called Death to him and that there was much of a choice there. The doctors had done all they could and Sam was dying. What's wrong with going to Heaven when it's your time?

Anyways, let's agree to disagree!
No problem. :-) I think some of this will become clearer as the last part of the season unfolds. I enjoyed the discussion!
Arad
# Arad 2014-02-13 18:09
What Gerry said! Seriously thanks for all your articulate contributions, which really do express my own understanding of how things are playing out. I just hope tptb are listening to you as well :lol:
Arad
# Arad 2014-02-13 18:09
What Gerry said! Seriously thanks for all your articulate contributions, which really do express my own understanding of how things are playing out. I just hope tptb are listening to you as well :lol:
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 01:39
Quoting Gerry:
JuliaG, I don't disagree with how you see the issue--that's the way I expected the writers to frame it when Sam expressed himself.

Where this doesn't work for me is that Sam's framework is much broader. Free will had nothing to do with the church scene. Sam made his choice. He seems to now regard Dean's view of family as being responsible for every bad thing they've had to work through. And that Dean has caused more harm than good in the world.

I'm not pulling for Dean to own the way Sam framed his issues, because I think he made the scope so large it became inaccurate and unfair.

Hopefully, the writers are planning on narrowing that scope down to the issue at hand, which Dean does need to own.

Even there, I think there is a conversation to be had. Dean is focused on Sam's willingness to die and how he can't accept that. He's not dealing with the fact he concealed what he did once Sam was healed enough to have a say.

Sam's focused on how betrayed he feels about having his free will taken away. He's not dealing with his own attitude to death, even though it upset him when he realized Dean was willing to die for the Trials.

I hope there's a middle ground to be found, where Dean acknowledges he needed to bring Sam in the loop as soon as he was able, despite Ezekiel's efforts to dissuade. He owed Sam the truth and that's what Sam has the right to expect in their relationship.

Sam for his part could acknowledge he has some self-examination to do about his view he still needs to atone, and understand Dean is never going to find it easy to let go of a brother he raised. It's not selfishness; it's the result of their different positions in the family. And he could also remember how hurt he was when he thought Dean felt closer to Benny. He's given mixed signals on how he defines autonomy.

If what comes out of this is Dean affirming to Sam he can count on Dean to tell him the truth and accept his decision in a case like this, I'll be happy. I also hope Sam works through his feeling his role is to be a sacrifice and comes out the other side. I'll be happy about that, too. But the brothers deciding they need to stop saving each other, that the mission is more important than the family? Not so much. I really liked the way Kripke collapsed that particular dichotomy.

The thing about freewill and church scene is that Sam does not trust Dean enough to believe that what Dean told was genuine.He doubts those words to be manipulative rather than Dean telling truth.
As far as Sam's attitude about death goes I see it much different than yours view.I don't see it as suicidal more about accepting that he (or Dean also ,which we came to know in the latest episode but with conditions applied) can die and not being agitated by the fact.
Even about Benny my feelings are much different than what you see.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 01:39
Quote:
JuliaG, I don't disagree with how you see the issue--that's the way I expected the writers to frame it when Sam expressed himself.

Where this doesn't work for me is that Sam's framework is much broader. Free will had nothing to do with the church scene. Sam made his choice. He seems to now regard Dean's view of family as being responsible for every bad thing they've had to work through. And that Dean has caused more harm than good in the world.

I'm not pulling for Dean to own the way Sam framed his issues, because I think he made the scope so large it became inaccurate and unfair.

Hopefully, the writers are planning on narrowing that scope down to the issue at hand, which Dean does need to own.

Even there, I think there is a conversation to be had. Dean is focused on Sam's willingness to die and how he can't accept that. He's not dealing with the fact he concealed what he did once Sam was healed enough to have a say.

Sam's focused on how betrayed he feels about having his free will taken away. He's not dealing with his own attitude to death, even though it upset him when he realized Dean was willing to die for the Trials.

I hope there's a middle ground to be found, where Dean acknowledges he needed to bring Sam in the loop as soon as he was able, despite Ezekiel's efforts to dissuade. He owed Sam the truth and that's what Sam has the right to expect in their relationship.

Sam for his part could acknowledge he has some self-examination to do about his view he still needs to atone, and understand Dean is never going to find it easy to let go of a brother he raised. It's not selfishness; it's the result of their different positions in the family. And he could also remember how hurt he was when he thought Dean felt closer to Benny. He's given mixed signals on how he defines autonomy.

If what comes out of this is Dean affirming to Sam he can count on Dean to tell him the truth and accept his decision in a case like this, I'll be happy. I also hope Sam works through his feeling his role is to be a sacrifice and comes out the other side. I'll be happy about that, too. But the brothers deciding they need to stop saving each other, that the mission is more important than the family? Not so much. I really liked the way Kripke collapsed that particular dichotomy.
The thing about freewill and church scene is that Sam does not trust Dean enough to believe that what Dean told was genuine.He doubts those words to be manipulative rather than Dean telling truth.
As far as Sam's attitude about death goes I see it much different than yours view.I don't see it as suicidal more about accepting that he (or Dean also ,which we came to know in the latest episode but with conditions applied) can die and not being agitated by the fact.
Even about Benny my feelings are much different than what you see.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 01:48
Quoting Sharon:
In Dean's mind yes , he risked a decision he knew that under no circumstances Sam would accept. I know that speech did not go down well but however anyone interpret's it , there was actually some truth in what Sam said.

And in saying it alot of credence has to be given to where Sam is now , literally coming off learning the truth and learning that once again a possession resulted in a innocent Death in Kevin. He can be accused of being unfair or even stabbing the 'brotherhood' in the back because he has to know that Dean would go to any lengths to 'save' him .

If we are to take Sam's truth then we take Dean's that Benny is a better brother than Sam has ever been and Sam has been deceiving Dean's ride since day 1. Clearly the 'brothers relationship' is a emotive subject and that it will mean many things to many people .But this current situation would not of arisen if Dean had not decided that his edict to Sam save at any price had not overidden everything Sam hated .

Perfectly stated.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 01:48
Quote:
In Dean's mind yes , he risked a decision he knew that under no circumstances Sam would accept. I know that speech did not go down well but however anyone interpret's it , there was actually some truth in what Sam said.

And in saying it alot of credence has to be given to where Sam is now , literally coming off learning the truth and learning that once again a possession resulted in a innocent Death in Kevin. He can be accused of being unfair or even stabbing the 'brotherhood' in the back because he has to know that Dean would go to any lengths to 'save' him .

If we are to take Sam's truth then we take Dean's that Benny is a better brother than Sam has ever been and Sam has been deceiving Dean's ride since day 1. Clearly the 'brothers relationship' is a emotive subject and that it will mean many things to many people .But this current situation would not of arisen if Dean had not decided that his edict to Sam save at any price had not overidden everything Sam hated .
Perfectly stated.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 01:55
Quoting Prix68:
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.

Yes,But the spectre did not make Dean think it or did not magnify his feeling.It just got it in the open..but If he said things only while being possessed it could have been hand waived but it is not so.
Dean when he told about Benny told so without finding any proof and just believing Benny's words and keeping Sam in the dark unnecessarily.T hat is hypocritical and much different than how he treated Sam when he told the reason for quitting hunting i.e he would not bother to listen to him and went with the incorrect thing of Sam leaving hunting because of a girl.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-14 01:55
Quote:
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.
Yes,But the spectre did not make Dean think it or did not magnify his feeling.It just got it in the open..but If he said things only while being possessed it could have been hand waived but it is not so.
Dean when he told about Benny told so without finding any proof and just believing Benny's words and keeping Sam in the dark unnecessarily.T hat is hypocritical and much different than how he treated Sam when he told the reason for quitting hunting i.e he would not bother to listen to him and went with the incorrect thing of Sam leaving hunting because of a girl.
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-14 03:15
Quoting Prix68:
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.

There is alot of double standards floating around. I did not get involved with the Suzy issue and was not what I was really talking about.
As for Dean's words Yes he was possessed but as it has been pointed out with Sam and his infamous BooHoo comment if he was not thinking it , it would not of come out. And Dean has said things without aid from a Spectre.

However this current issue is my problem I can sympathize with not wanting the brothers back as much has you dont want to lose Dean I do not want one like this for Sam. The fact alot have found Sam,s 'harsh' words more upsetting than what Dean did to begin with I find troublesome .
Sharon
# Sharon 2014-02-14 03:15
Quote:
Sharon - What Dean actually said was Benny hadn't let him down like everyone else had and as far as I can tell never did. I believe percysowner actually coined the better brother phrase and Sam fans on this site have been using it ever since. The Sam has been deceiving his ride....well that was said while Dean was possessed by the specter. Now we have been told repeatedly that what Sam has done when he was soulless or possessed by Meg was not his fault.

Which brings me to the double standard that some commenters have. When Dean had sex with Suzy there was a huge uproar and even a whole article on this site about how sleazy Dean was. Dean had forced poor Suzy to break her chastity pledge (even though she clearly was willing) Dean was guilty of being sleazy and like a rapist for complementing her and going along with the sex. They even had the audacity to speak Spanish and admit they both missed sex.

Yet Sam had sex with Amelia after she had returned to Don and was a married woman breaking her marriage vows. I guess that was okay because immediately AFTER the sex Sam said it was wrong and then dodged the commitment question by saying he and Amelia needed to think about it although she had clearly made a choice already. Everyone was just glad to get rid of Amelia. No women's issues then.

I don't want the brothers back if it means loosing the Dean I know and love, period.
There is alot of double standards floating around. I did not get involved with the Suzy issue and was not what I was really talking about.
As for Dean's words Yes he was possessed but as it has been pointed out with Sam and his infamous BooHoo comment if he was not thinking it , it would not of come out. And Dean has said things without aid from a Spectre.

However this current issue is my problem I can sympathize with not wanting the brothers back as much has you dont want to lose Dean I do not want one like this for Sam. The fact alot have found Sam,s 'harsh' words more upsetting than what Dean did to begin with I find troublesome .
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-14 03:52
Quoting anonymousN:
"Yes,But the spectre did not make Dean think it or did not magnify his feeling.It just got it in the open..but If he said things only while being possessed it could have been hand waived but it is not so."

But how does that explain the other victims response to the spectre? They were turned murderous by things that were relatively insignificant or long forgotten by the people possessed. I have always felt that those things were issues that Dean had some problems with at one time but had mostly moved on from. As with the other possessed people I think that the Spectre very much magnified Dean's feelings. WAY out of proportion to his real, possibly mostly, forgiven feelings. Yeah Dean might have still harbored some bad feelings but the Spectre made it look like he was in a smoldering rage about it all. I think that was all Spectre, That's why he was "evil", he wasn't just encouraging open discussion here!
leah d
# leah d 2014-02-14 03:52
Quoting anonymousN:
"Yes,But the spectre did not make Dean think it or did not magnify his feeling.It just got it in the open..but If he said things only while being possessed it could have been hand waived but it is not so."

But how does that explain the other victims response to the spectre? They were turned murderous by things that were relatively insignificant or long forgotten by the people possessed. I have always felt that those things were issues that Dean had some problems with at one time but had mostly moved on from. As with the other possessed people I think that the Spectre very much magnified Dean's feelings. WAY out of proportion to his real, possibly mostly, forgiven feelings. Yeah Dean might have still harbored some bad feelings but the Spectre made it look like he was in a smoldering rage about it all. I think that was all Spectre, That's why he was "evil", he wasn't just encouraging open discussion here!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 11:41
Quoting leah d:
Quoting anonymousN:
"Yes,But the spectre did not make Dean think it or did not magnify his feeling.It just got it in the open..but If he said things only while being possessed it could have been hand waived but it is not so."

But how does that explain the other victims response to the spectre? They were turned murderous by things that were relatively insignificant or long forgotten by the people possessed. I have always felt that those things were issues that Dean had some problems with at one time but had mostly moved on from. As with the other possessed people I think that the Spectre very much magnified Dean's feelings. WAY out of proportion to his real, possibly mostly, forgiven feelings. Yeah Dean might have still harbored some bad feelings but the Spectre made it look like he was in a smoldering rage about it all. I think that was all Spectre, That's why he was "evil", he wasn't just encouraging open discussion here!
I read it as spectre making all other things other feelings insignificant.T hey have all positive and negative feelings but the spectre made it so that there were no positive feelings
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2014-02-17 11:41
Quote:
Quoting anonymousN:
"Yes,But the spectre did not make Dean think it or did not magnify his feeling.It just got it in the open..but If he said things only while being possessed it could have been hand waived but it is not so."

But how does that explain the other victims response to the spectre? They were turned murderous by things that were relatively insignificant or long forgotten by the people possessed. I have always felt that those things were issues that Dean had some problems with at one time but had mostly moved on from. As with the other possessed people I think that the Spectre very much magnified Dean's feelings. WAY out of proportion to his real, possibly mostly, forgiven feelings. Yeah Dean might have still harbored some bad feelings but the Spectre made it look like he was in a smoldering rage about it all. I think that was all Spectre, That's why he was "evil", he wasn't just encouraging open discussion here!
I read it as spectre making all other things other feelings insignificant.T hey have all positive and negative feelings but the spectre made it so that there were no positive feelings