Thoughts on 9x08: Between a Rock and a Hard Place

3

Non-stop laughter. That’s pretty much the extent of this episode, alongside bad-ass Winchester moments and with an emotional cherry-on-top ending that sobered the whole thing right back up. As nearly the entire season has been to date, this again delivered the old-school feel while maintaining fresh content. It’s hard to know where to begin with this episode – the whole of it was neatly delivered and fun to watch. This week had some enjoyable extra characters – including colourful APU members and the star of some of Dean’s favourite extra-curricular, Casa Erotica videos.

She is the Police

2

Sherriff Mills is always a welcome addition - she brings some of the dry, sardonic wit of Ellen and Bobby and because of her newness to the supernatural world, her wide-eyed wonder as the boys toss out possible explanations is fun too.

10

Jodi was perfect in this episode: she brought new perspectives, was an interesting sounding board for Sam, good researcher and just the right touch of nostalgia at this point in the season. Furthermore, for being newer, as she is, Jodi is certainly not shy about stepping right in to the world and doing what need be done – for example, punching out a virgin and taking her blood. And hey, getting staked in the shoulder, well, that could happen to anyone right? No big. Sherriff Jodi Mills is bad ass and can join forces with the Winchesters any day of the week.

Safety Pins and Tape

1

The battery that can't hold a charge. While this episode focused on Dean's virgin/not-a-virgin antics in that hilarious look-at-me way quite a bit, underneath it was really all about Sam and Zeke. Before the focus really narrows to this, we start with teasers of Sam's state of being: sound asleep over breakfast, yawning and explaining to Dean that he can't quite seem to get to full power.

7

Despite his low reserves, Sam is at his brother's side throughout the integration of the church and invites himself and Dean to join the rehymenation declaration gang. While it is true that the reaction of the ladies to Dean's are exceptional, Sam's embarrassment and/or exasperation with his brother was a sight to behold in and of itself. Hat’s off for the communicative throat clearing and tip-top non-verbal eye discussion in the sharing circle.

We've been waiting for weeks now to find out what is going to be the outcome of Zeke's backdoor possession and it's been somewhat of a rollercoaster. For a while Sam was energized and feeling better than he had in sometime - he was jogging, up early, reading - enjoying life and feeling himself again. This episode we witnessed something else, a new side effect. Sam is tired, constantly just not quite rested enough. As though he got sleep, but maybe fell short of the needed hours or he missed a meal. So he's okay enough but no longer one hundred percent and feeling rejuvenated.

13

Vesta tried to steal Sam's liver - and really, would pass up a healthy looking morsel like a Winchester if that was your preferred delicacy? - only to find he was "safety pins and tape" inside. In so many ways, this reminded me of when Famine touched Dean although this is not a figurative dead inside so much as a literal. Poor Sam broke my heart as he sadly suggested this is who he was - that is wasn't so much a side effect of anything, be it demonic curse or angelic trials - he was just wrong, plain and simple. This has been Sam's burden his entire life, the idea of not being normal, that there is something wrong with him and he had final reached a place in his life where this wasn't haunting his every step. Until now. Thought we know the truth, until it is revealed this will continue to weigh on his every thought and action.

17

Truthfully, given the way Sam's energy levels have gone from high to low and the increasing darkness/threat  in Zeke's emotional blackmail warnings to Dean about not telling Sam, I'm am fully convinced of angel's malicious intent. In the beginning he restored Sam and made Sam feel good so that Dean would see physical results of their pact and be inclined to listen to Zeke - this is the same reason he healed Cas along the way, though there is likely a master plan for him too - and now he is using Sam as an energy reserve as well as an inside man, so to speak. Zeke = badness.

SPN 1719

So we're left with Sam in a tired, self-deprecating funk reflecting on the wrongness of his being and overall, sad.

Sticky Boom Fun

spn908 0337

Another full, rounded week for Dean: he joined a church and rediscovered his virginity, only to lose it to one of his porn fantasies and, sadly, he added another stone to the burgeoning load of guilt on the “Lies and Misdirection I’ve Told My Brother” ship he’s still steering.

spn908 0600

Most of Dean’s time this week was spent making the audience cackle in glee over the things coming out of his mouth, in particular the now infamous “sex is sticky” scene which I don’t think will ever get old. We also had Dean’s hook up – which was the first we’ve seen in a while and, as funny as the scene was, it was also good to see Dean enjoying life again. It feels a bit like a broken record to comment on how enjoyable this season has been so far, but it truly has been and one of the reasons is that though it hasn’t lost the Supernatural edge it also maintains a lighter quality that the earlier days had – this season seems to have struck the balance very well.

11

Dean wasn’t all fun and games this episode though. After his, well, fun and games, he was victim to Vesta and left to lead the group of kidnappees, in particular one who was determine to kill Honor and offer her up to spare their lives being as she had, horror of horrors, a sprained ankle and was toast anyways. Dean was pretty badass in this moment, never one for tolerating a bully and certainly not killing for killings sake either.

16

Ultimately, the ending was the best and worst part of this episode. Best because it was acted and written so beautifully and very revealing of all the characters mindsets and where things might be heading. Worst, because it was so difficult to watch. For Dean it is very clear that he struggling more and more with keeping from Sam what really happened after the Trials and about Zeke – especially given how Sam is putting problem on his own being. The choice that Dean has is an impossible one: reveal the truth and potentially have Sam die or keep the secret to have Sam live. I hope that when the truth does come out, Sam understands Dean was truly between a rock and the hard place in this decision.

Odds and Ends

4

Supernatural
has played with gods and demi-gods to varied degrees of successes and failures before, but I think over all this time it worked okay. The goddess herself was never the focus of the episode, there wasn’t an extreme build up of Vesta as a goddess – in fact it was more a passing mention, including the slaying part (literally as Sam and Jodi are running out the door) so there was no opportunity for a letdown. She was well used in terms of the church setting to harvest virgins and in the reveal of Sam’s internal deficiencies, the first major exposure to Sam himself that not everything is hunky-dory since the trials.

Final Thoughts

5

All around enjoyable. This episode hit on nearly every emotion, from hilarious to heart-breaking, with good secondary characters and a well paced plot. Once again the episode was independent but still managed to feed the over-arching season storyline significantly and it brought us a new classic Supernatural moment that will be referenced for years to come. Season nine is nearly to the mid-season hiatus (!) and the season is holding strong – this episode was definitely no exception.

Your thoughts?

Comments  

jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-02 06:58
I totally agree with everything you said. This was a great episode. We have gotten back to the humor that was missing a bit last year and I LOVE it. The funny mixed with the scary and serious is why I love this show so much.
Dean was Dean... Let's face it, the boy is always a bit of a pig when it comes to women. It's a defense mechanism mostly, but he also just enjoys sex. As we can all appreciate by his little description at he meeting. He had me laughing so hard during his encounter with the porn star.
Sam... I am really glad you brought up his embarrassment and facial expressions over Dean. Priceless. Then his encounter with the crazy cookie lady. lol. Good times.
I love Jody, too. Her and Sam are a great team.Her comment about Sam looking tired made me frown, and again worry.
Vesta was definitely not the story line here, at all. So, it made total sense that she didn't get much screen time or background. She wasn't really important, she was just a lead in to the things that were.
The end does pretty much make the episode though. Of course, I am all about Sam so I may be biased a little. His disappointment in himself breaks my heart. :'( HIs slumped shoulders and sad eyes, sighs of resignation... I wanted to give him a big hug. And so did Dean until Zeke showed up. Damn him.
I believe Zeke has bad intentions as well. He is no good. For a while I was on the fence, hoping he was a good angel. There has to be some out there somewhere. At least you would think. But I believe now, he is not one of them.
This episode left us with so many questions and expectations. The entire fandom is worried and upset and speculating. That is a sign of good writing in my opinion. Our emotions were everywhere and we can't wait for the next one.
I for one am very anxious over tomorrow's mid-season finale.
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-02 06:58
I totally agree with everything you said. This was a great episode. We have gotten back to the humor that was missing a bit last year and I LOVE it. The funny mixed with the scary and serious is why I love this show so much.
Dean was Dean... Let's face it, the boy is always a bit of a pig when it comes to women. It's a defense mechanism mostly, but he also just enjoys sex. As we can all appreciate by his little description at he meeting. He had me laughing so hard during his encounter with the porn star.
Sam... I am really glad you brought up his embarrassment and facial expressions over Dean. Priceless. Then his encounter with the crazy cookie lady. lol. Good times.
I love Jody, too. Her and Sam are a great team.Her comment about Sam looking tired made me frown, and again worry.
Vesta was definitely not the story line here, at all. So, it made total sense that she didn't get much screen time or background. She wasn't really important, she was just a lead in to the things that were.
The end does pretty much make the episode though. Of course, I am all about Sam so I may be biased a little. His disappointment in himself breaks my heart. :'( HIs slumped shoulders and sad eyes, sighs of resignation... I wanted to give him a big hug. And so did Dean until Zeke showed up. Damn him.
I believe Zeke has bad intentions as well. He is no good. For a while I was on the fence, hoping he was a good angel. There has to be some out there somewhere. At least you would think. But I believe now, he is not one of them.
This episode left us with so many questions and expectations. The entire fandom is worried and upset and speculating. That is a sign of good writing in my opinion. Our emotions were everywhere and we can't wait for the next one.
I for one am very anxious over tomorrow's mid-season finale.
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-02 08:04
Great review but I must "Zeke out" for a moment :-)
Isn't Zeke turning out bad tooooooo predictable? I still have faith that the writers will surprise us- make him do something where write him off as anything but a good soldier. Then he will make a Cas move & stand with the Winchesters against the good soldier angels.

Once Cas gets his grace back, each of the boys can have their own pet angel. I will continue to dream my dream until I wake up in the cold sweat of a truly bad Zeke.
mary9930
# mary9930 2013-12-02 08:04
Great review but I must "Zeke out" for a moment :-)
Isn't Zeke turning out bad tooooooo predictable? I still have faith that the writers will surprise us- make him do something where write him off as anything but a good soldier. Then he will make a Cas move & stand with the Winchesters against the good soldier angels.

Once Cas gets his grace back, each of the boys can have their own pet angel. I will continue to dream my dream until I wake up in the cold sweat of a truly bad Zeke.
misschriss
# misschriss 2013-12-02 08:52
This episode not a favourite among Destiel shippers (duh) who are slamming Dean's sticky hour of sex on other sites; but I enjoyed it from beginning to end. Love it when Dean takes charge. He is a born leader and while the prisoners starved and moped, Dean found a way to get them out within a few hours. Loved Jodi, hope to see more of her and Sam/Zeke is ramping up the intrigue. Great episode. Season 9 is shaping up well so far.
misschriss
# misschriss 2013-12-02 08:52
This episode not a favourite among Destiel shippers (duh) who are slamming Dean's sticky hour of sex on other sites; but I enjoyed it from beginning to end. Love it when Dean takes charge. He is a born leader and while the prisoners starved and moped, Dean found a way to get them out within a few hours. Loved Jodi, hope to see more of her and Sam/Zeke is ramping up the intrigue. Great episode. Season 9 is shaping up well so far.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-12-02 09:12
I think you can tell the level of a season ( thus far) by the commentary of the episodes. If criticisms is leveled at the minute details and not grand plot points, as it appears for the season so far, well, what can I say except it's been a damn fun ride thru 8 episodes and I'm looking forward to the rest.
This episode was funny, a little creepy ( good creepy) and so sad! It hit all the spots and made me very anxious for what is to come - which is what it should do. :-)
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-12-02 09:12
I think you can tell the level of a season ( thus far) by the commentary of the episodes. If criticisms is leveled at the minute details and not grand plot points, as it appears for the season so far, well, what can I say except it's been a damn fun ride thru 8 episodes and I'm looking forward to the rest.
This episode was funny, a little creepy ( good creepy) and so sad! It hit all the spots and made me very anxious for what is to come - which is what it should do. :-)
Simpatico
# Simpatico 2013-12-02 09:38
Thank Chuck for a positive and well written review. I agree with you on all your points with the exception of Zeke. I still don't know what he is up to. His energy could be drained because of the resurrections and healings. And his warnings to Dean not to reveal him could also be legit. Maybe we'll discover more Dec 3.
Simpatico
# Simpatico 2013-12-02 09:38
Thank Chuck for a positive and well written review. I agree with you on all your points with the exception of Zeke. I still don't know what he is up to. His energy could be drained because of the resurrections and healings. And his warnings to Dean not to reveal him could also be legit. Maybe we'll discover more Dec 3.
Gwen
# Gwen 2013-12-02 10:03
I really enjoyed this episode too. It made me laugh, it broke my heart (oh, Sammy, my poor poor boy) and it had Jody in it and Jody is awesome. I love the relationship between Sam and Jody so much. I cannot wait to see what happens with the Sam/Zeke/Dean storyline even though I'm also terrified about what might happen. :cry:
Thank you for a lovely review.
Gwen
# Gwen 2013-12-02 10:03
I really enjoyed this episode too. It made me laugh, it broke my heart (oh, Sammy, my poor poor boy) and it had Jody in it and Jody is awesome. I love the relationship between Sam and Jody so much. I cannot wait to see what happens with the Sam/Zeke/Dean storyline even though I'm also terrified about what might happen. :cry:
Thank you for a lovely review.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:16
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:16
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:18
Quoting misschriss:
This episode not a favourite among Destiel shippers (duh) who are slamming Dean's sticky hour of sex on other sites


Ahh, wrong, actually. I don't ship destiel and I found the Dean-Suzy scene utterly repellent.

I assume you are one of the many Cas haters who reads here? Only you saying it's only destiel shippers who disliked this episode is like me saying it's only Castiel haters who liked it.
Dawn
# Dawn 2013-12-02 12:18
Quote:
This episode not a favourite among Destiel shippers (duh) who are slamming Dean's sticky hour of sex on other sites
Ahh, wrong, actually. I don't ship destiel and I found the Dean-Suzy scene utterly repellent.

I assume you are one of the many Cas haters who reads here? Only you saying it's only destiel shippers who disliked this episode is like me saying it's only Castiel haters who liked it.
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-02 13:02
Quoting Dawn:
Quoting misschriss:
This episode not a favourite among Destiel shippers (duh) who are slamming Dean's sticky hour of sex on other sites


Ahh, wrong, actually. I don't ship destiel and I found the Dean-Suzy scene utterly repellent.

I assume you are one of the many Cas haters who reads here? Only you saying it's only destiel shippers who disliked this episode is like me saying it's only Castiel haters who liked it.



I think you may have misunderstood misschriss. I don't see her saying that ONLY diestiel shippers hated the scene... just that that particular area of the fandom were not happy with it. And assuredly I see no reference to hating Castiel here.

I am not a Cass/ Dean shipper, I find the whole idea of that repellent. But I did enjoy the scene in this episode. I thought Dean was so funny stumbling over himself and cute. The porn star/ revirgin? Come on... she could have said no, but she didn't. And if she really had wanted to change her life, she probably wouldn't be keeping old vids of her porns. LOL. Having an encounter with someone that you find attractive isn't wrong if it is mutual, which this totally was.
jarielynn
# jarielynn 2013-12-02 13:02
Quote:
Quote:
This episode not a favourite among Destiel shippers (duh) who are slamming Dean's sticky hour of sex on other sites
Ahh, wrong, actually. I don't ship destiel and I found the Dean-Suzy scene utterly repellent.

I assume you are one of the many Cas haters who reads here? Only you saying it's only destiel shippers who disliked this episode is like me saying it's only Castiel haters who liked it.
I think you may have misunderstood misschriss. I don't see her saying that ONLY diestiel shippers hated the scene... just that that particular area of the fandom were not happy with it. And assuredly I see no reference to hating Castiel here.

I am not a Cass/ Dean shipper, I find the whole idea of that repellent. But I did enjoy the scene in this episode. I thought Dean was so funny stumbling over himself and cute. The porn star/ revirgin? Come on... she could have said no, but she didn't. And if she really had wanted to change her life, she probably wouldn't be keeping old vids of her porns. LOL. Having an encounter with someone that you find attractive isn't wrong if it is mutual, which this totally was.
tigerlily2
# tigerlily2 2013-12-02 15:56
Never mind. Comment deleted.
tigerlily2
# tigerlily2 2013-12-02 15:56
Never mind. Comment deleted.
Aro
# Aro 2013-12-02 17:16
Quoting Dawn:
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.


So just because you and others people think that those scenes were repellents, everyone else has to think like you? I don't. I think they were funny and sexy :-)
Aro
# Aro 2013-12-02 17:16
Quote:
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.
So just because you and others people think that those scenes were repellents, everyone else has to think like you? I don't. I think they were funny and sexy :-)
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-02 18:19
I had no problem with the episode either. Found it cute and funny and thought Suzy was a grown woman responsible for her own choices, as it should be.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-02 18:19
I had no problem with the episode either. Found it cute and funny and thought Suzy was a grown woman responsible for her own choices, as it should be.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-02 18:22
Quoting Dawn:
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.

If you think this site is unbalanced I think you need to take a closer look at the articles posted here.
TeresaPezzino
# TeresaPezzino 2013-12-02 18:22
Quote:
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.
If you think this site is unbalanced I think you need to take a closer look at the articles posted here.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-12-02 18:43
Thanks for this review. Fun episode. Love Dean in the episode - nobody flirts better - although Suzy was right there with him on the flirting and follow up. Good for them. Reminded me of Dean with Tara Benchley in Hollywood Babylon - or with Lisa in The Kids are All Right or with the girls in Provenance. And the scenes between the brothers were great.

I confess I went back and re-watched the episode after reading some were offended to see what I missed. Frankly, after watching again, I just don't get it - funny, charming, classic Dean. Guess this is just an episode where folks have different views. For me - it's a re-watch. Cannot wait for tomorrow night!
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-12-02 18:43
Thanks for this review. Fun episode. Love Dean in the episode - nobody flirts better - although Suzy was right there with him on the flirting and follow up. Good for them. Reminded me of Dean with Tara Benchley in Hollywood Babylon - or with Lisa in The Kids are All Right or with the girls in Provenance. And the scenes between the brothers were great.

I confess I went back and re-watched the episode after reading some were offended to see what I missed. Frankly, after watching again, I just don't get it - funny, charming, classic Dean. Guess this is just an episode where folks have different views. For me - it's a re-watch. Cannot wait for tomorrow night!
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-02 19:22
Quoting Aro:
Quoting Dawn:
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.


So just because you and others people think that those scenes were repellents, everyone else has to think like you? I don't. I think they were funny and sexy :-)


Everyone has there own option on things, and some people regarding this episode are acting like Destiel shippers. They want everyone to validate how they see things on the show, no room for any other interpretation lest you get called a queerbaiter/hom ophobe (re: Destiel) or sexist/misogyni st (re:this episode).
Mick
# Mick 2013-12-02 19:22
Quote:
Quote:
And yet another WFB writer skates over the sheer sleaziness of the repulsive Dean-Suzy scene. Why am I not surprised.
So just because you and others people think that those scenes were repellents, everyone else has to think like you? I don't. I think they were funny and sexy :-)
Everyone has there own option on things, and some people regarding this episode are acting like Destiel shippers. They want everyone to validate how they see things on the show, no room for any other interpretation lest you get called a queerbaiter/hom ophobe (re: Destiel) or sexist/misogyni st (re:this episode).
debbab
# debbab 2013-12-02 20:44
At last a review that gets the series and who the characters are in it. Sam has always had the issue of staying human. Dean has always had the responsibility of helping Sam do this. Dean has always had a healthy appetite for sex and he does have to always say adios the next morning* Lisa being the exception that shows us what he is capable of and what he gives up b/c of his job). Sam always runs into trouble with the females as he gets overly involved.You caught what the writers were going for. Balance with clues leading up to the mid season finale. That Sam is weaker now and was better in Bad Boys is the confusing part because the episodes were aired out of order for some reason- I'd love to know why as it changes my reaction to Sam's reactions. SPN is a lot like Dean's description in therapy- it is about to go boom and get really sticky for the Winchesters!
debbab
# debbab 2013-12-02 20:44
At last a review that gets the series and who the characters are in it. Sam has always had the issue of staying human. Dean has always had the responsibility of helping Sam do this. Dean has always had a healthy appetite for sex and he does have to always say adios the next morning* Lisa being the exception that shows us what he is capable of and what he gives up b/c of his job). Sam always runs into trouble with the females as he gets overly involved.You caught what the writers were going for. Balance with clues leading up to the mid season finale. That Sam is weaker now and was better in Bad Boys is the confusing part because the episodes were aired out of order for some reason- I'd love to know why as it changes my reaction to Sam's reactions. SPN is a lot like Dean's description in therapy- it is about to go boom and get really sticky for the Winchesters!
AbbyS
# AbbyS 2013-12-02 21:11
I have to point out something that seems to be getting missed -- Dean said that Crowley is wanting blood so they will have that leverage over him, but Sam said nothing of Crowley's blood injection (which we saw at the end of Heaven Can't Wait). What was up with that?

Makes you wonder if Zeke saw it (not Sam) or if Zeke messed with his memory--- AGAIN!

Also, despite what seems to be suggested about Zeke, I dont think he is bad. I think he means well but, as Castiel seemed to never "get it" while he was an angel (always trying to do the right thing but epically messing up).

Why else would he say to Dean that he stilled believed in Castiel and Dean. (ironically he didn't say he believed in Sam, or did he?)

He isn't a nobody. He must an important angel- the other angel didn't recognize him and he said he was in danger from the other angels. Why would they have an incursion? It wouldn't just be for Castiel,would it?

Also, I can't forget that Zeke said the reason he agree to help Dean was because of how much Dean loved his brother.
AbbyS
# AbbyS 2013-12-02 21:11
I have to point out something that seems to be getting missed -- Dean said that Crowley is wanting blood so they will have that leverage over him, but Sam said nothing of Crowley's blood injection (which we saw at the end of Heaven Can't Wait). What was up with that?

Makes you wonder if Zeke saw it (not Sam) or if Zeke messed with his memory--- AGAIN!

Also, despite what seems to be suggested about Zeke, I dont think he is bad. I think he means well but, as Castiel seemed to never "get it" while he was an angel (always trying to do the right thing but epically messing up).

Why else would he say to Dean that he stilled believed in Castiel and Dean. (ironically he didn't say he believed in Sam, or did he?)

He isn't a nobody. He must an important angel- the other angel didn't recognize him and he said he was in danger from the other angels. Why would they have an incursion? It wouldn't just be for Castiel,would it?

Also, I can't forget that Zeke said the reason he agree to help Dean was because of how much Dean loved his brother.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-02 21:21
Quoting AbbyS:
I have to point out something that seems to be getting missed -- Dean said that Crowley is wanting blood so they will have that leverage over him, but Sam said nothing of Crowley's blood injection (which we saw at the end of Heaven Can't Wait). What was up with that?

Makes you wonder if Zeke saw it (not Sam) or if Zeke messed with his memory--- AGAIN!

I think they were pointing out without doing too much more exposition (they clearly don't watch the Vampire Diaries - that would show them that you can never have too much exposition) that Sam had told Dean about watching Crowley injecting the blood and they had discussed it.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-02 21:21
Quote:
I have to point out something that seems to be getting missed -- Dean said that Crowley is wanting blood so they will have that leverage over him, but Sam said nothing of Crowley's blood injection (which we saw at the end of Heaven Can't Wait). What was up with that?

Makes you wonder if Zeke saw it (not Sam) or if Zeke messed with his memory--- AGAIN!
I think they were pointing out without doing too much more exposition (they clearly don't watch the Vampire Diaries - that would show them that you can never have too much exposition) that Sam had told Dean about watching Crowley injecting the blood and they had discussed it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-02 21:51
Quote:
Sam has always had the issue of staying human. Dean has always had the responsibility of helping Sam do this.
I think that this really does not give Sam enough credit and gives Dean too much. Sam has stayed human for the entire series. Blood addict? Well lots of humans get addicted to various substances. And frankly Dean, due to his PTSD did little to help Sam during season four. He blamed him. He called him off the reservation. He undermined Sam's self confidence giving Ruby even more of place to drive them apart. Sam made a lot of mistakes, but ALL of them were human. Soulless? Well is you blame Sam for that, I don't know what to say. Cas pulled Sam's body out of Hell and Sam had NO SAY in the matter. Even when Dean found out Sam was soulless he didn't think he wasn't human or not Sam. He just wanted Sam's soul back. Saying yes to Lucifer? Sam refused to do that until Dean signed off on it, so Dean, due to there being no other alternative, helped Sam not stay human. Currently, well if Sam isn't human, that's ALL ON DEAN.

One of Dean's less attractive traits is that he believes anyone and everyone who tells him Sam isn't human. John tells him Sam has to be killed or saved, Dean was sure that Sam would become so bad he would have to kill him and that shadowed him for the entire first half of season 2. Then he decided that he and he alone would save Sam, making it totally clear that Sam could not be relied on to save himself. Under Andy's control Dean admitted that he was afraid of what Sam was, telling Sam that DEAN believed something was wrong with him, that he was a freak and not human. When the crossroad deal brought Sam back and Azazel said "are you sure what you brought back was 100% Sam?", demons lie went straight out the window for Dean. He spent the next season poking at Sam trying to see if he wasn't human and making Sam feel his doubt. Sam was raised by a father who knew about the psychic kids "for a long time". Sam was raised in an atmosphere where he felt unclean and wrong and John and Dean have unintentionally and sometimes intentionally bolstered those feelings.

Sam struggles with the fear that he isn't normal. Dean has done little to make him feel otherwise. However throughout it all, Sam has remained human and I really resent the statement that Sam is so weak, wrong and incompetent that he can not be given any credit for keeping himself human and that ALL the credit goes to Dean.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-12-02 21:51
Quote:
Sam has always had the issue of staying human. Dean has always had the responsibility of helping Sam do this.
I think that this really does not give Sam enough credit and gives Dean too much. Sam has stayed human for the entire series. Blood addict? Well lots of humans get addicted to various substances. And frankly Dean, due to his PTSD did little to help Sam during season four. He blamed him. He called him off the reservation. He undermined Sam's self confidence giving Ruby even more of place to drive them apart. Sam made a lot of mistakes, but ALL of them were human. Soulless? Well is you blame Sam for that, I don't know what to say. Cas pulled Sam's body out of Hell and Sam had NO SAY in the matter. Even when Dean found out Sam was soulless he didn't think he wasn't human or not Sam. He just wanted Sam's soul back. Saying yes to Lucifer? Sam refused to do that until Dean signed off on it, so Dean, due to there being no other alternative, helped Sam not stay human. Currently, well if Sam isn't human, that's ALL ON DEAN.

One of Dean's less attractive traits is that he believes anyone and everyone who tells him Sam isn't human. John tells him Sam has to be killed or saved, Dean was sure that Sam would become so bad he would have to kill him and that shadowed him for the entire first half of season 2. Then he decided that he and he alone would save Sam, making it totally clear that Sam could not be relied on to save himself. Under Andy's control Dean admitted that he was afraid of what Sam was, telling Sam that DEAN believed something was wrong with him, that he was a freak and not human. When the crossroad deal brought Sam back and Azazel said "are you sure what you brought back was 100% Sam?", demons lie went straight out the window for Dean. He spent the next season poking at Sam trying to see if he wasn't human and making Sam feel his doubt. Sam was raised by a father who knew about the psychic kids "for a long time". Sam was raised in an atmosphere where he felt unclean and wrong and John and Dean have unintentionally and sometimes intentionally bolstered those feelings.

Sam struggles with the fear that he isn't normal. Dean has done little to make him feel otherwise. However throughout it all, Sam has remained human and I really resent the statement that Sam is so weak, wrong and incompetent that he can not be given any credit for keeping himself human and that ALL the credit goes to Dean.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-02 22:20
Quoting percysowner:
Sam struggles with the fear that he isn't normal. Dean has done little to make him feel otherwise. However throughout it all, Sam has remained human and I really resent the statement that Sam is so weak, wrong and incompetent that he can not be given any credit for keeping himself human and that ALL the credit goes to Dean.

Percy, if it helps, I believe that Sam and Dean are both human and have both always been human. Horrible supernatural things keep happening to Sam, horrible psychological things keep happening to Dean. they are both freaks and both 100% human.
I also agree that Sam has dealt with the things that have happened to him as much under his own volition as by Dean's help. He stopped drinking demon blood because HE decided. He went to hell to stop the apocalypse because HE decided to do it (he discussed it but it was up to him and it was his idea). He defeated Lucifer by strength of will. He did all of those things because Dean was there to support him but in the end HE did them.
Dean is (or should be) a support for Sam as Sam is (or should be) for Dean. Sometimes they each let the other one down but that is because they are human.
The writers and actors have all started saying make your own decisions about what the show is telling you. (There are various small groups who seem to have decided that that applies only to them and their wishes but I say it can apply to everyone). Those of us who want to see a show about 2 human brothers (and a cast of thousands) being there for each other through everything the universe can throw at them should just go with that.
eilf
# eilf 2013-12-02 22:20
Quote:
Sam struggles with the fear that he isn't normal. Dean has done little to make him feel otherwise. However throughout it all, Sam has remained human and I really resent the statement that Sam is so weak, wrong and incompetent that he can not be given any credit for keeping himself human and that ALL the credit goes to Dean.
Percy, if it helps, I believe that Sam and Dean are both human and have both always been human. Horrible supernatural things keep happening to Sam, horrible psychological things keep happening to Dean. they are both freaks and both 100% human.
I also agree that Sam has dealt with the things that have happened to him as much under his own volition as by Dean's help. He stopped drinking demon blood because HE decided. He went to hell to stop the apocalypse because HE decided to do it (he discussed it but it was up to him and it was his idea). He defeated Lucifer by strength of will. He did all of those things because Dean was there to support him but in the end HE did them.
Dean is (or should be) a support for Sam as Sam is (or should be) for Dean. Sometimes they each let the other one down but that is because they are human.
The writers and actors have all started saying make your own decisions about what the show is telling you. (There are various small groups who seem to have decided that that applies only to them and their wishes but I say it can apply to everyone). Those of us who want to see a show about 2 human brothers (and a cast of thousands) being there for each other through everything the universe can throw at them should just go with that.
alice
# alice 2013-12-02 22:30
I've had multiple complaints about multiple posters on this thread, especially with those of you making "Destiel" the conversation. That wasn't remotely mentioned in the review, and Elle usually doesn't raise Destiel issues (or shipping in general). So stop, that topic is irrelevant to this discussion. Any further comments of Destiel and shipping will be edited.

Believe it or not people, some writers do positive reviews on this site because they're genuinely happy with the season. Respect that viewpoint.

Seriously, with the quick tempers and bad behavior lately, I swear I'm going to have to do the one thing I've never ever wanted to do - approve comments before posting them. You're all driving me to do that.
Alice
# Alice 2013-12-02 22:30
I've had multiple complaints about multiple posters on this thread, especially with those of you making "Destiel" the conversation. That wasn't remotely mentioned in the review, and Elle usually doesn't raise Destiel issues (or shipping in general). So stop, that topic is irrelevant to this discussion. Any further comments of Destiel and shipping will be edited.

Believe it or not people, some writers do positive reviews on this site because they're genuinely happy with the season. Respect that viewpoint.

Seriously, with the quick tempers and bad behavior lately, I swear I'm going to have to do the one thing I've never ever wanted to do - approve comments before posting them. You're all driving me to do that.
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-02 22:39
Lovely comment eilf.
leah d
# leah d 2013-12-02 22:39
Lovely comment eilf.
st50
# st50 2013-12-03 00:36
Quoting eilf:

The writers and actors have all started saying make your own decisions about what the show is telling you. ..... Those of us who want to see a show about 2 human brothers (and a cast of thousands) being there for each other through everything the universe can throw at them should just go with that.


This really resonated with me tonight, for some reason, eilf. Thank you for saying it.

ETA: I really enjoyed this episode, and this review.
st50
# st50 2013-12-03 00:36
Quote:

The writers and actors have all started saying make your own decisions about what the show is telling you. ..... Those of us who want to see a show about 2 human brothers (and a cast of thousands) being there for each other through everything the universe can throw at them should just go with that.
This really resonated with me tonight, for some reason, eilf. Thank you for saying it.

ETA: I really enjoyed this episode, and this review.
debbab
# debbab 2013-12-03 09:02
Saying that Sam has always struggle to remain human does not equal that he is weak in any form. It has always been his issue in the series that is all I am pointing out. He has resisted until he thinks he is doing something for a bigger good. I do not see him as weak as he overcomes the adversity. Dean does not always believe what others say about Sam, in fact he tries to remain optimistic which makes his disappointment with Sam's choice to go with Ruby all the more poignant since he fought so hard to keep Sam from going dark. Not disappointing Dean is Sam's soft spot now and Dean protecting Sam is Dean's soft spot thus the current lie. So Percysowner please do not think I view Sam as weak in any form. However the series is about two humans who fight many levels of adversities and I'm with eilf's comment.
debbab
# debbab 2013-12-03 09:02
Saying that Sam has always struggle to remain human does not equal that he is weak in any form. It has always been his issue in the series that is all I am pointing out. He has resisted until he thinks he is doing something for a bigger good. I do not see him as weak as he overcomes the adversity. Dean does not always believe what others say about Sam, in fact he tries to remain optimistic which makes his disappointment with Sam's choice to go with Ruby all the more poignant since he fought so hard to keep Sam from going dark. Not disappointing Dean is Sam's soft spot now and Dean protecting Sam is Dean's soft spot thus the current lie. So Percysowner please do not think I view Sam as weak in any form. However the series is about two humans who fight many levels of adversities and I'm with eilf's comment.