Okay, so I’d only just got back from an epic adventure in Texas and I was kind of depressed about the holiday ending and I was kind of tired after 20 some hours of travel… but that was really emotional, right? I mean, I had a pained, weepy, frowny face for most of it…and I don’t think it was jetlag!

Man, it’s good to have the show back. Even when it hurts. Which is always. And season 9 certainly kicked off with a bang and in my case a wibble!


spn901_CASS

The whole grounded angel thing. The whole who’s going to be an ally, who’s going to be an enemy. The whole Cass learning about his human shortcomings. It was such a great set up and a very exciting start to the new season. We even got to visit a bit with Bobby. Nawwwwwww.

And then of course, delivering another big emotional punch to our guts, Sam and Dean, with a new nightmare befalling them...and us.

Once again we faced the horror of one of the brothers losing the other, with a morally dubious, but understandable solution reached. All the greys. This show is all the greys! The anxiety and angst this is going to cause us in the coming weeks. I’ve been pondering it solidly for days!

spn901 HOSPITAL

Yes, we’ve been down this road before and that got me to thinking... How can it ever been any other way? These brothers will continually be put in peril, it comes with the turf and if put in peril, chances are one is probably going to end up near death, or to quote one of my favourite movies, mostly dead and the other will always make the same choice, to try and save his brother how ever he can. It’s swings and roundabouts, again and again. The same problem. The same choice. The same problem. On and on. Over and over. It’s not so much already covered ground as the ground the brothers will always cover. Because there is no other option for them. It’s become a common theme throughout the series and each time we see it, it has new twist, a new pain, for them and us.

One brother can’t live without the other – at least not very successfully – and judge me if you will, but I totally love that about them! It’s why I watch the show. It’s for their all-consuming love (and chronic co-dependence!) Geesh, that last part makes me sound awful, but I take solace in knowing that I’m not alone…right? RIGHT???!

So once again, we find ourselves looking down the barrel of a dicey situation where either answer is going cause grief. Being a hero totally blows!

Let’s get straight down to the nitty gritty shall we? Dean’s decision...

I mean, obviously Sam has to be fixed somehow, there’s no Dean without Sam, there’s no “Supernatural” with out Sam & Dean. So Sammy had to come back to the land of the living and that meant Dean had to make another choice…and because we know how this show rolls, we know how that’s going to go! Our poor babies…

In season 8, Sam got a new lease on hope. He’d got a taste of what life might have the opportunity to offer him one day. He saw that there might be a light after hunting. This light was so strong for him that he vowed to take Dean along with him and lead him to it.

Even as Sam got more physically and emotionally damaged, there was still that glimmer of hope shining out of him, because he started to believe he was being purified and that something wonderful waited for him beyond the pain and exhaustion of the trials.

It was only in the final throws, when he was beaten down, sick and weary after eight hours of injecting his own blood into Crowley and fighting to get the spell done, that he started to give up on the thought of living. When he was broken by looking deep within to confess to what ached in his heart the most - how he believed he let Dean down and how he believed Dean perceived him. It was only in those dark, final moments, tired and sad and desperate that he thought to give up. But not to give up for nothing, to give up to get the job done, to sacrifice himself and put an end to so much suffering in the world.

Sam’s hope had touched Dean and Dean, as always, fought to ensure that Sam lived. He stopped Sam from giving in and giving it all up to close the gates of hell. He helped Sam see beyond the pain, sadness and exhaustion to life and love and a reason to keep going. Sam asked how to stop it. Dean told him to let go. So Sam let go…

So what changed? Where’d that light at the end of the tunnel go that Sam so eloquently spoke of in “Trial and Error”.

When people are desperately sick and worn down by the struggle for life, they sometimes want to give up and have done with it. But when push comes to shove, so often they continue to battle on regardless, because that’s the human spirit, that’s the fight for survival, that’s what’s in our evolutionary make-up. I’ve seen this personally. I’ve heard the words, I don’t want to go on and then I’ve seen the fight lift up again and again because the alternative was not what was really wanted – it just seemed like an escape from the pain of the present moment…

So I was left wondering…did Sam truly want to die, was he truly done, or was he just so sick and tired he could no longer muster the resistance to death - kind of like when he was sleep deprived - or lift, what has always been his ever-present hope, out of the gutter and look once more for that light.

spn901_DEATH

I heard his words, if he was going to go, this had to be the last time, there could be no more resurrection, no more ongoing consequence to his life being pulled back to this world, no more suffering for anyone caught in that jet-stream. But I couldn’t help but wonder, was this Sam saying I’m ready or was it Sam ensuring that if he did die, nothing weird would happen that would reverse his death, because we all know how that goes. Was he making sure that Dean couldn’t do anything that would harm himself – like say, sell his soul – in order to bring Sam back? Was he really giving into Death forever, or protecting those he would leave behind with a guarantee.

You see, I’m struggling to understand why Sam, of all people, Sam who always fights, Sam who always tries to show his brother that whatever the case, life is worth living, Sam who would rather face the horrors of his time in hell rather than leave his brother alone in the world, would suddenly say, I’m done, enough, I’m going to have a cold one with Bobby, no matter how tired he was from his life of eternal toil. Especially after all the, I see the light at the end of the tunnel, a life beyond hunting talk from last season.

Did Sam really want to die? Or was he just too tired to fight?

spn901 DEANSAD1

Dean was almost going to let him go too, not because he thought Sam was ready, but because he believed Sam wouldn’t want the alternative on offer. But mostly, I don’t think Dean believed for one single second that his brother wouldn’t find a way to fight back, wouldn’t find a way to pull himself from the brink, until he saw what Sam was actually thinking.

Then that old panic set in.

Here’s the thing, if I had the chance to stuff an angel inside my dad and fix him from the inside out, even without him knowing, I would have done it in a heartbeat. So, there is no way I can’t give Dean all the understanding in the world. We all take our own baggage with us as we travel the “Supernatural” road.

But beyond that, why are any of us surprised? Dean will always throw himself under a bus to save Sam. It’s the ultimate representation of his Deanness. He will always try to protect Sam. He’s said it over and over; it’s who he is. For better or worse, no matter how much he tries to let go, there are certain things he is incapable of letting go of and Sammy is his number one certain thing. He was going to die alongside Sam in “Croatoan”. He sold his soul to resurrect Sam. He stood his ground and got beaten to a pulp by Lucifer so that Sam wouldn’t die alone. He knows, from past experience, that his brother will more than likely not understand, or will be furious with him, or may even walk away – again – but he did it anyway, because he’s Dean and that’s who he is. And we know it.

Sure, some people may say, typical selfish Dean act, not respecting his brother’s wishes. But was it really selfish, or selfless? Because Dean knows the probable outcome will not go well for him, but that doesn’t matter, he doesn’t matter, because Sam will have another chance to live…

spn901 DEANHANDS

Like us, Dean heard Sam’s hope-filled words. Dean wanted to do the trials to ensure that his brother got the chance to possibly live the life he had always dreamed of. Yes, Dean can’t stand the thought of a life without Sam and of course part of his motivation was that over-powering love for his brother, but surely that love can also be seen as his way of ensuring that Sam’s life didn’t end in the sorrow of the trials, that Sam might have the chance to have that much dreamed of happiness, or at least still have the chance to hope for it? I want Sam to have that chance again and if I do, you can be sure Dean does.

Sam stopped short of finishing the trials so that he could live; not die. He looked at Dean, heard his words and chose to live. So…then he goes and dies anyway? What a waste that would have been. He might as well have locked the gates of hell then, if he was going to die anyway. What would have been the purpose of any of that pain and suffering? What would have been the damn point to it all.

What Dean chose to do, he chose out of desperation – from an exhausted and broken place himself. You could see he didn’t want to go that path, until he saw that Sam was actually thinking about moving on.

spn901_TOP

I was incredibly moved by the fact that the part of Sam’s mind that wanted to fight, was seen to him as Dean. I thought that spoke volumes about who he believes his brother to be, his protector, the one that will always fight for him and how he sees that similarity with his brother inside himself. I’ve always seen the Winchester brothers as two parts of the same whole and for me, that’s what Sam’s brain was seeing too.

Dean eyes were full of tears when Ezekiel said that they couldn’t tell Sam, because Sam may eject Ezekiel and die. That wasn’t a lie Dean wanted to perpetrate against his brother. Until Ezekiel said that, Dean was all for being honest with Sam. And the memory wipe – of that day in hospital and I assume, those thoughts of death inside Sam’s melon - was also something that you could see ate Dean up. His beautiful face had every conflicted emotion written across it. Ugh! The agony of it all!

Death said to Dean, (I’m going with it was Dean and Dean’s words and Ezekiel just jumped in there at the last moment, because I’m sure Death can tell an angel when he sees one), it’s Sam choice and Sam looked to Dean and said, “What do I do?” Yes, he didn’t have all the facts...but he handed the reigns of his largest life or death decision to his big brother – just like he did in the church in “Sacrifice” when he asked how to make it stop.

spn901 SAMMIND
spn901_DEANBEG

When Sam didn’t think Dean had a plan, he saw no other option than to move on, but when Dean said he had a plan, Sam was willing to stop and listen and then – without even asking what it was – put his faith in Dean and give it another shot. He didn’t even ask Dean how. He just said, yes.

These brothers pull each other back from the edge over and over, not just literally – as in back from death – but out of the pit of despair. Their driving force is to fight and when one wants to throw in the towel, the other picks him up and shakes him by the scruff of his neck. Mostly over the years, it’s been Sam shaking Dean. Now Dean, in his round about way, shook Sam.

A desperate man in a desperate situation. A desperate act from a place of love.

Oh gosh I adore these guys and their epic flaws. 

My one great and stupid hope is that this time around, maybe Sam might understand Dean and his motivation. Maybe his understanding of who his brother is and how far they have come together, will allow him an understanding of the situation. Maybe he’ll be thankful for a second chance at hope and a second shot at the life he’s long dreamed of. But I know he probably won’t. This is “Supernatural” after all and there are no happy endings. Sam will most likely be mad. Feel betrayed. The whole thing will explode in Dean’s face and it will tear at their hearts and souls and my heart and soul and it will rip at the very core of what makes them awesome, being brothers. Most likely...

But wouldn’t it be nice if we were all surprised. Wouldn’t it be nice if Sam said, “You know, Dean…I don’t agree with how you went about it and you shouldn’t have lied to me because you know I hate that, but I get it because it’s who you are and you’re my brother and I love you (boop) and thanks for giving me another shot at life. I’m glad to be here.”

Excuse me while I laugh out loud at myself!

Of course, that’s absolutely not how it’s going to go! But I can’t simply believe that Sam would or more to the point should after all these years, only be mad at his brother. Man, I would love it if he were actually kind of glad that he’s not dead! If he could see that maybe the means justified the end.

This is not a judgement on Sam by the way; because I believe Sam has that understanding in him…I’m just not sure the writers always see him the same way as me! Ha!

But maybe, just maybe, I’ll be surprised…

I really don’t want any more lies. I don’t want either of the brothers to feel that kind of hurt again. Is that too much to ask? Yeah, probably…

Don't get me wrong though...I love this whole thing! What on earth is wrong with me!


spn901 DEANSAD2

And I know some of you may see all this as typical sweetondean, making a case for Dean Winchester, (because I do loves him so), but it’s not just about that. It’s not just about defending my man! I’m pretty sure we all know and to some extent understand, why Dean went this road. I’m just saying how I read it and how it impacted upon me. Like an angsty knife to my Winchester brother loving heart! Oh the ecstacy of the agony!

So was I shocked? I kind of was and I kind of wasn’t. Was I sad? I kind of was and I kind of wasn’t – leaning more towards wasn’t because I want Sam alive and kicking, thanks very much! Was I angry? No, I can’t be. Did I get it? Yup, totally. Am I cool with it? Um – yep. Like I said, a living Sam is a good thing and you’ve got to admit it’s as fascinating all hell. Do I think it’s going to end up being a bummer? Err yep; I’ve watched this show for 8 years! Do I find it intriguing? Hellz yes. I’m totally onboard to see where this goes! Do I wish there wasn’t an angel all up inside Sam? Sure. But then the alternative is no alternative is it?

What I really see here is a show that at the end of its eighth year knocked me on my ass with the angels falling surprise and now at the beginning of its ninth year, knocked me on my ass again, because I saw Dean making some kind of deal, but I sure didn’t see this. The fact that this show continues to side swipe us after so many years is pretty damn amazing.

There was so much to love in this season opener – even through the hurt. I loved that we revisited the, “We got work to do” line. One of the things I enjoyed the most about season 8 was the nods to the past. The fact that the season 9 opener had this classic line made me one happy fan.

Oh and…the title…”I Think I’m Gonna Like It Here”, it has a dubious ring right? Is it the angels that have fallen who are gonna like it here? Or is it Ezekiel, liking it inside Sam. Only time will tell if this “good soldier” is to be trusted or not. I kind of what him back in his own vessel because his vessel was kinda hot! Oh and also to get him out of Sam…of course!

So here we go people. A rockin' start! Now strap yourselves in, remain seated and keep your arms inside the carriage at all times. Supernatural is back and it looks like another awesome ride!

So happy!

Thanks for reading.

-sweetondean



Comments  

nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-11 07:39
hey sweetondean,

beautiful post and i agree with almost everything you said. here's where i think you are wrong, because of the way i feel about sam and what i know of him based on show these last 8 years.

sam won't be angry at dean for the way he saved him. he will understand. jared made a comment, after all sam wants to live. sam will be angry at dean for keeping what he did a secret for half the season. it's the lying that will upset sam, especially given where dean had been coming from in telling sam, no more lies. it's that old do as i say not as i do thing. but even though sam will be angry with dean he won't be angry for long. you may want to recall the 9 episodes in which dean lied to sam about what his father said to him. sam was angry for all of two minutes. then he took the next step. he moved on. he forgave. that's what sam does. he forgives. he got mad again at dean for lying to him about killing amy. this time he needed a little break from dean, but in the end, he understood what dean did. he even told him he was right. he forgave and moved on. sam always forgives. he doesn't hold grudges, chuck love him, but that's a dean thing...grudge holding. one of the qualities i love so much about sam is his ability to forgive. he never even got angry at cas for breaking his wall. not like dean did. he actually felt bad that cas took his crazy. he promised cas that he would try to fix him in reading is fundamental. sam is very compassionate and very forgiving. so if this helps you at all, i have absolutely no doubt that sam's anger isn't going to be a major issue. if he's angry for more than five minutes, i'd be surprised. he's certainly not going to harp on it. as always, sam will understand and forgive his brother, because he always does. :lol:
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-10-11 08:02
#1 Hi nappi815, Oh I 100% believe you're right about Sam. I have a lot of faith in him. I think he's amazing. And I know Jared said he "hoped" Sam would understand and I know eventually he will. I just wish we didn't have the pain - no matter how short - before that. Because this lie is for a good reason. Because if Sam did decide to eject Ezekiel then he would be back at death's door and no-one would want that, I don't even believe Sam would want that. I'm not so sure he would eject him though, because this is a very different situation to where he's been before, but that's a risk Dean's not willing to take and I absolutely understand that, and I hope like crazy that Sam does too...sooner rather than later...I believe that he would, but he's not always written how I believe in him... Same goes for Dean. And I think he's misunderstood at every turn...

So don't get me wrong, I was trying to say, Sam should be understanding, because I believe that's who he is, I just hope that's how it rolls out. I hope we're surprised and this situation is approached differently.

What I love about these two brothers the most is how the same yet how different they are. They are same same but different that's why I will never judge them against each other in how they deal with issues. They're both too awesome.

It's going to be an intruguing first half of the season that's for sure!

Thanks for your comment! :-)
Gwen
# Gwen 2013-10-11 08:40
Excellent review. I too understand Dean and there is no way on earth that I can be mad at him. If, two years ago, I had been given the chance, any chance, to save my dad I would have done whatever it took. I wouldn't have hesitated for a second. Sam was seconds from death, Dean was terrified, panicstricken and heartbroken. I cannot fault him at all for his decision. I adore how much he loves his little brother. Their chronic co-dependence still makes my heart melt.
The episode was wonderful, albeit a heart hurty wonderful. I too also loved how Sam's need to fight manifested as Dean and how he said 'yes' without question although that faith is obviously going to be an issue at some point soon. *cries* I do hope the fallout isn't going to be agonisingly painful. I loved where the brothers were at the end of s8. During the hiatus I didn't think I wanted Sam possessed by angels but after this episode I find myself intrigued by it all. I cannot wait to see how it all plays out. The 9.01 title does seem a bit ominous now - I do wonder if it maybe refers to Ezekiel not wanting to leave Sam?

Thanks for the lovely review. And for those lovely pics - those teary eyed Sam and Dean pics are gorgeous.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-11 09:12
Terrific review Sweetondean and my sentiments exactly! I really feel Sam made a choice to live even though he didn't know the plan and in all fairness Dean didn't know about the mind wipe until the deed had already been done. Guilt and uncertainty were written all over Dean's face during the whole decision making process. He made the best decision he could when there was no totally right decision.

It's amazing that a show that started off with such a simple premise has become so complicated and yet is still able hold onto it core story of two brothers.
novi
# novi 2013-10-11 09:32
Sweetondean, thank you!Thank you all guys for your reviews, this reading's been so comforting, and I need some because the more I think of the episode the sadder it seems. Back in S8 when Sam said, "We're going somewhere - the end" with that horrible calm satisfaction in his voice, and even before there was this tone of wretchedness, this fatigue in Sam that just breaks my heart. And now he wants it to be final. You think he doesn't mean it? He doesn't? Would be good but look at Sam again in the last scene, his "We got work to do" sounds so...I just can't. And Dean is so desperate clutching at every ghost of a chance, begging "Don't go gentle into this good night, rave, rave against the dying of the light". And though Sam listens his big brother and gives in like he always does, what then? Maybe the story isn't going to be about Sam forgiving/ not forgiving, but about Dean having to accept his brother's decision and finally let go? Oh, how I don't like it! One brother gone, exhausted, broken, no normal life for him, no life at all, just eternal rest; the other brother is left alone, half the man he used to be, and nobody here to keep him human.
But there may be even more horrible prospect - do you want to know? If Ezekiel refuses to leave Sam's body, if he finds way to control it and if he turns out to be bad - what will Dean's options be? Can't think of it, just can't.
On a lighter note, I'm sure it was Dean talking to Sam in Death' cabin. It was family talk with hints and references only they knew. Secondly, there was passion in what Dean said, and panic. His arguments didn't sound businesslike, they sounded personal. Thirdly, if the phrase "Let me in" is dubious, the final one "If there ain't no you..." is pure gold. It is pure Dean, and human to the core.
suzee51
# suzee51 2013-10-11 11:04
sweetondean: Thank you for this wonderful review! It is interesting to me how frequently your reactions mirror mine so accurately.

Yes, I felt Dean believed he had no other choice. No, he could never willingly let go of his Sammy. And yes, while watching Dean agonize over making this decision was tough, I believe the true agony will result in what Ezekiel actually does now that he is inside Sam and whether he leaves as he agreed to do. But when in SPN does everything work out the way Sam and Dean had intended?!

You spent a lot of time discussing Dean and his thought process and decision. Since the episode ended, I have been ruminating more about Sam. We have witnessed Sam being possessed first by Meg in "Born Under a Bad Sign" and then by Lucifer at the end of Season 5. I keep thinking about how fiercely independent Sam is by nature - how he couldn't tolerate his own father trying to direct his actions. Being "taken over", unable to be his own person, not in charge of his own actions - that would truly hit at the very core of what Sam considers essential to his being. Especially having personally experienced that kind of "takeover" not just once, but twice before.

Will Sam forgive Dean for doing whatever it took to save him? Of course. Will he forgive Dean for giving away the reins to be in charge of his actions and behavior? I think not.

As you so eloquently stated, sweetondean, once again our show has created an intriguing dilemma that is certain to be filled with such sweet angst! After 8 seasons, I think we are all in awe that this show can keep masterfully doing that.
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2013-10-11 11:12
Great review Amy, as always. So understand Dean. It wouldn't be the show it is without these kind of choices. How it will play out is a mystery. Yes the boys are/were in a new place and have matured. (Thank you JC)

But with siblings there is sooooo much history. Love/hate as any sibling knows. No matter how old you get, and I am older, all of us have memories, repressed or otherwise. And those past experiences can affect our present perceptions, even if we have a logic side that says don't let it. So I do expect Sam to be pissed. How long it lasts and what level of understanding Sam excepts is the big question. I hope they let him remember the stuff he said and felt while making his choice to go with Dean. That will help him forgive. I think!!!

Season 9 should be another great one. I can't wait.
st50
# st50 2013-10-11 11:40
Hi sweetondean.
Nice review. I did so enjoy the episode!! Both brothers motivations were very clear to me (unlike the last season!)...

Dean doing what Dean has always done - save Sam no matter the cost. He simply can't envision an alternative. How can any of us blame him for being himself? Doing what is as natural as breathing to him? I'd have been more shocked if Dean hadn't taken the only option given to him. There've never been any limits when it comes to saving Sam.

And then there was Sam doing what he always does - analyzing the situation, and doing what he sees to be right ...even to the point of self-sacrifice (especially if it'll keep Dean from making any other supernatural deal)... and yet still -always always -wanting to trust that Dean will have a better plan, and will protect and save him. Pull him back from that final step. Do what Dean has always been able to do...

I can't help but be sad that Sam's motivations in deciding to go with Death are being questioned (here and around the internet) - are even being called selfish! by some. That sure isn't how I see it....

When you examine the circumstances:
1) He's in a coma - brain just about dead, organs burn out, literally seconds away from death - Yes, Sam can fight to hold on, but to what? To lie in a bed, maintained by machines, while Dean fusses and grieves over him, makes a deal, sells his soul - again? For how long? How do you fight when your body is dead?
2) Bobby had JUST (s7) told him and Dean both - "When it's your time to go, just go!" No arguing, no making deals, no dodging your reaper... Go.
3) With Death himself come to reap him, how can Sam possibly argue that it was truly his time to go?
So what does he do? Tries to make the best of the situation and protect Dean from himself. Protect the world. Yup. There's the Sam I recognize.

This wasn't Sam giving up, wanting to die. This was Sam acknowledging the situation and finding the best possible solution - for Dean. Acknowledging that there was no way out for him, and doing what he could to make sure Dean stays safe.

But then, in comes Dean at the last moment. (Yes, I believe it was Dean), telling him to trust in a new plan, and not to leave him alone! That's Sam's bottom line, isn't it? "I can't leave my brother alone out there".... Deal is done. Sealed with that one line. There ain't no me.....

And yes, there will be some angst and fuss over the deal Dean made. Because again, that's our boys! It'll take a while, but they'll get over it and move on. Because again, that's our boys! :-)

Yay for Sam and Dean being recognizably Sam and Dean!
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-11 11:45
Ah sweetondean. Thank you again. I agree with you completely and have echoed many of the things you have said in my previous comments. As for the premiere in general, I thought it was awesome. A great way to kick off the season.
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-11 12:02
#9-st50. It is sad that people see Sam as selfish, that is their go-to stance about Sam. I do feel that Sam was willing and prepared to 'move on'. To me that isn't giving up. At least not in the same sense as the detractors. His body and mind had taken so much pain and trauma that he felt it was best. Sometimes people need a reason to carry on and in this case for better or worse it was for his brother. Love these two men!
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-11 12:09
St50...well put ...i totally agree. As I noted Sam will no doubt be upset with dean. Not for the way he was saved, but for the length of time he keeps it from him. But I understand fear as deans driving force..he will not take the slightest chance that Sam will reject Zeke before he's healed...lets face it ..dean is afraid of a premature ejection :D sorry...i couldn't help it..i can't believe I went there either...but its getting kind of dark on here & I found the urge to lighten it up a bit...i will now leave the gutter...seriou sly, I think Sam will be angry at dean for not telling him sooner, but he will understand & he will forgive. I think anger would give dean peace anyway. Better than guilt for lying. U know I was thinking that this is carvers way of giving dean a more supernatural role in myth arc. Don't think Zeke is going to take anyone over..i do think that Zeke, once Sam is healed,will call in that favor to dean...to help him get back to heaven...to help him deal with metatron
st50
# st50 2013-10-11 12:13
#11 - leah. Yes, I agree. Sam was ready to move on. He was ready to die in Sacrifice, but, again, not for selfish reasons. And man, having lived Sam's life, who wouldn't be ready for an escape from the pain and trauma!
But once again, Dean showed up and gave him an alternative. :)
I love these boys. :)

#12 Nappi :o :oops: :D Thanks for the laugh.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-11 12:14
Sweetondean I so look forward to your reviews. Thank you for taking the time. I agree with your sentiments about Dean's motivations. He knows the consequences and is willing to lose Sam in order to save him. He doesn't like it but it was his only choice. I am trying to think has Dean ever been possessed? If not I think that is why even if Sam has matured he may not be able to forgive Dean this time so easily as he has in the past.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2013-10-11 12:30
Another great review as we have all come to expect from you sweetondean. As always, I am right there with you on the Dean bandwagon. There just isn't any other way either one of them would have handled this. If it had been Dean in the coma, does anyone not think that Sam would make the same decision? Of course he would have, it's the Winchester way. Sam has never wanted to die. He has always wanted that normal life that he had a taste of back in Season 8 no matter how uneventful it was for us. For him, it was a taste of what life really could be so after all the pain he went through to go through those trials to reach that ultimate goal, there is no way he was going to give up, but he needed to know there was a plan and when he thought there was none well then in his eyes, he'll make the best of a bad situation.
I really do believe it was Dean that was in Sam's head at the end thanks to Ezekiel's assistance just until he could get the "yes" from Sam then traded places to possess him.
I also believe that, as much as I like Ezekiel, I really feel he has a different agenda, and one that will not be favorable to either of the boys once revealed. I hope I am wrong and hope that he is just using the strong vessel of Sam to heal himself and then hopefully he will then have both the Winchester brothers on his side and allies to fight to get back into heaven along with the other fallen angels. Yes, I am the optimist with a spot of skepticism but I am so engaged in this season already. This is going to be one exciting ride if it continues as this first episode has, (and of course I just know in my heart it will).
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-11 12:31
#12 Nappi- Funny girl!! :D
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-11 13:50
i'd like to give dean some credit where his credit is due and this coming from a girl who last season for the first ten eps wanted to kick dean's cute little ass....i would just like to take note of how much dean has matured and changed over the years. this is the first time dean hasn't just jumped in without dipping his toe in first. every other season, dean did whatever necessary consequences be damned, without much thought or consideration to those it would affect. but this time, this time dean mulled over his decision very carefully. he did consider sam in it, of course in the end, dean would do what it took to save sam, but at least this time he took the time to consider sam in all this. yes sam will be majorly pissed off, but you know what, better an angry brother than no brother at all. dean knows sam will forgive him because that's sam. sam is the most compassionate character i've ever seen and also the most forgiving. he doesn't dwell on should've/could 've for very long. he deals with whatever it is he has to deal with and moves on. it's one of his most endearing qualitites....t hat and his awesome butt....just love it. there i went, back to the gutter again....it must be friday :lol: :-*
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-10-11 14:01
I did not like what Dean did I cannot pretend I did esp considering Sam's past and serious issues over having control and the whole trust thing between the brothers . I understand why he did it in the same way I understood why he made the deal .

I just do not want Sam to be seen has wrong for his reaction whatever that maybe ?.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-11 14:34
#18 Sharon. I think Sam will be mad and justifiably so. I also think that Sam will come to see what a awful position that Dean was in. Dean was not happy about what he did. I don't think he is proud of or thinks that what he did was right. Just necessary and Sam's only chance at that moment. Dean had to decide in moments to do this or let his brother die. It goes without saying he won't let Sam die if he can prevent it.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-11 15:10
just going to get off the subject of sam and dean for a sec to ponder this out there and see what you think.

as of now, i'm in the camp that zeke is who he says he is. i mean, cas is human now and show will need an angel who is good and who wants to fight metatron and get the angels back to heaven. so what better way to accomplish a mission such as this than by having the help of dean winchester, and by proxy of course sam. healing sam is, as zeke pointed out, mutually beneficial to them both. i see no reason at all for zeke to want to doublecross dean. it really makes no sense. i think zeke will do ok replacing cas as the angel in the winchesters corner. the backup quarterback so to speak while the real qb is out with an injury. gotta have backup.

i know there is concern regarding zeke. some have posed that sam is in danger of being taken over. i for one believe carver pretty much nixed that idea when he specifically had zeke tell dean that sam can reject him and eject him at any time, especially while he's in a weakened state. that means sam can eject him if zeke was strong as well. sn canon is....an angel's vessel must give consent. the fact that zeke indicated that he can be ejected at any time, hence the mind swipe, tells me in no uncertain terms that an angel cannot do as demons do and take control of people against their free will. so i don't believe sam is in any danger of that. i don't think dean is either.

but in regards to the favor dean owes zeke..what if let's say, zeke wants the winchester's help in stopping metatron and what if in order to do that zeke needs a vessel that poses no real threat to metatron, because let's say, he's human....someon e like cas for instance. if i were zeke and i wanted to kick metatron's ass, as part of dean's debt, i would want cas not sam or dean. who better to convince cas to allow zeke to use him as a vessel, once again, than our very own dean winchester. after all why would metatron fear cas as he's a mere human, or so he would think....i'm really not worried about zeke wanting to take over either winchester...bu t i think cas if fair game. ....jmo of course.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-10-11 16:22
Welcome back Sweetie! Always love your reviews and yes! I am with you, I do love the whole "brother can not live without the other brother, co-dependance love thing". That is the SPN way, along with the lies, secrets, sacrifices, fights, tears, hugs just to keep the other one alive... and that special bond between the characters, the actors and of course, us, the fans!
I think this time it is going to be a complete different reaction from Sam, when he finds out the truth, after all, they are older now, but still, we are going to see what it makes this two who they are, the Winchester Brothers!! I can wait for the rest of the episodes... and we are in only in episode 1!!
Aqualilies
# Aqualilies 2013-10-11 17:24
Great review! it's always nice to find a fair/balanced reviewer who appreciates both brothers!

Sam's decision to die I understood. Sam is totally a fighter, but there comes a point where he knows when to give up. When Bobby was dying, he accepted it way before Dean. He wanted to live in the beginning, and only gave up when Brain-Dean didn't have a plan. He wanted to live and fight, but at some time he realized that all the fight in the world wouldn't save him if he was really supposed to die. And in his defense, he'd totally be right about that if he didn't have a brother with massive letting-go issues (I say that in the most loving way possible). If Dean hadn't found the one tiny little loophole to save Sam's life, Sam would have died. Sam's discussion with Death was about making sure that if he did move on no one, like say, the aforementioned brother would screw himself over or get himself hurt as a result. He wanted to protect Dean from himself. And I also don't think it's too insane to suggest that he was tired of dying and being brought back every other episode. As much as he doesn't want to leave Dean alone, he's tired of the crazy plans to save each other that end up firing back in their faces. Like selling their soul, drinking demon blood, or pimping his body out to an angel. See also: Sam-Brain-Bobby 's entire argument.

And Dean's decision was just obvious. Sam dying = Dean doing anything and everything in his power to stop it. He hates tricking and lying to Sam, but that's small fry when compared to Sam's life. It's been a staple of his character from the start and it's not going to change anytime soon.

I can't really fault either character. As always, they both had only the best intentions for each other in their hearts. I share your small hope that they might have Sam not get pissed. The best argument for the writers having him act that way is that it would surprise the hell out of everyone involved. We'd all stare in shock that they decided to pass up the opportunity for angst to make the characters act like mature people. They've done the lie/anger/angst thing to death, how about a little truth/understan ding/getting over it? Just once? Sam knows how important he is to Dean. He knows he did it it out of love, care, and a slightly obsessive need for Sam to not die. Can't we have him portrayed a realistic and caring human? Please?

Yea I doubt it too. Anyways great review and I can't wait for another fantastic season of highs, lows, and resisting the urge to kick my television off a high-rise!
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-11 18:02
# 22- Due respect, I think that Sam has always been portrayed as a realistic and caring human being. I feel he will be mad and has a right to be!! But being the caring human being that he is, he will forgive Dean at some point. They do need to deal with this all head on. I don't want to see it stretched out for half a season.
krystal
# krystal 2013-10-11 18:16
Thanks for this great review! I agree the emotional trauma is killing me, but that's what makes this show good!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-11 19:19
nappi815 That is pretty awesome speculation! I would like that a lot.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2013-10-11 19:32
Beautiful, awesome, perfect review! Thank you for your eloquence and sharing your love for the Winchesters and this show! :)
suzee51
# suzee51 2013-10-11 19:35
"In its Hebrew origin, the meaning of Ezekiel is 'strength of God'. Ezekiel is often called the Angel of Transformation with his greatest miracle being the resuscitation of the dead."

Don't you absolutely LOVE the way the writers use background information like this in writing SPN stories? I mean they could have randomly named the character any name, but instead they take the time to research and carefully choose each detail to reinforce the storyline. I love their attention to detail!
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-11 21:18
leah, i'm hoping sam gets angry at dean because the alternative i think would be worse. the way i see it, knowing sam as i do after all these years, it could go one of two ways, unless there's an option c...

he can get angry, which i hope he does. i hope he gets so angry he gives dean a good punch in the nose and then yells a little and then it's done. he moves into understanding mode and then forgiving mode and then simply moves on...this could all happen in a span of five minutes.

the other alternative, which would be much worse for dean would be hurt sam. why didn't you tell me dean, didn't you trust me? there it is ladies and gentlemen, the one thing goes straight into sam's heart, the whole dean/trust issue. i know they hugged it out in that church, but i don't believe that that hug erased all of sam's issues of trust. dean's trust is still and will always be the one thing sam seems to need most. i compare sam's trust issue to an eggshell, very fragile. the slightest wrong move and the shell can crack. look i know that dean never even thought of trust being an issue. save sam that's it. keep it a secret because he can't/wont risk sam rejecting zeke. trust isn't even an inkling of a smidge of a thought in dean's head. i know it...i would hazard to guess a lot of you know it too...but sam...ooh...sam , who i believe will always have issues of does dean trust me, can very much go there..right where i don't want him to go. in sam's head, dean you kept this from me, how could you , how could you not tell me, don't you trust me? bammo...right in the heart. of course dean trusts sam. of course it had nothing to do with trust at all.,...but in the fragile state i believe sam is in when it comes to dean's faith in him...he can totally misperceive dean's actions. and then....hurt sam...even worse...dean feeling even worse for unintentionally hurting sam in a way, he never even considered, because it had nothing to do with trust and everything to do with saving sam.

so let me holler from the rooftops, bring forth angry sam. because an angry sam will require a lot less tissues and chocolate than a hurt sam would. so let the fists fly if they must when the time comes....dean can handle it and more importantly, so can i :lol:


by the way, i'm quite confident that sam will get angry
so i'm not really worried.

i'm kind of excited that zeke is in sam's head. i mean the possibilities abound. what better insight into what sam is feeling or thinking than by it being revealed by the angel residing inside him. this is such an opportunity to learn about sam, who keeps everything inside. hell, i know i may be reaching, but we can even find out about his year without dean through zeke..wishful thinking but still not out of the realm of possibility. not only can we learn what sam might be feeling/thinkin g, but so can dean. i'm kind of excited for it. :lol:
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-11 21:45
Nappi, I hear what you are saying! I hope it doesn't come down to that. I very much want Dean's trust in Sam to be firmly established this season. I don't want there to be a shadow of a doubt for Sam or fans. Furious Sam is very much more preferable to me than wounded, yet again, Sam. I need to see them build on the start they made in the finale. Not go backwards. I am at this point optimistic. Fingers crossed. :-)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-10-12 02:58
@28
nappi815, I really don't think it's an either/or type situation (what situations are??) Maybe the 'option c' there would be both; that Sam would initially be angry and when the anger fades away what's left is the hurt. That's the way it usually goes on the show and it certainly would be the more typical, and realistic, reaction. .
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-10-12 19:22
Quote:
#18 Sharon. I think Sam will be mad and justifiably so. I also think that Sam will come to see what a awful position that Dean was in. Dean was not happy about what he did. I don't think he is proud of or thinks that what he did was right. Just necessary and Sam's only chance at that moment. Dean had to decide in moments to do this or let his brother die. It goes without saying he won't let Sam die if he can prevent it.
I think Sam will forgive Dean about the whole angelic-pacemak er thing (desperate times, desperate measures and all) but will have a hard time getting past having his memory wiped; that's the part that's really gonna piss him off.

You could already see how heavily these choices are weighing on Dean; wondering how that's gonna play out because he really doesn't have anyone to confide in about this.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-12 20:23
Quote:
Quote:
#18 Sharon. I think Sam will be mad and justifiably so. I also think that Sam will come to see what a awful position that Dean was in. Dean was not happy about what he did. I don't think he is proud of or thinks that what he did was right. Just necessary and Sam's only chance at that moment. Dean had to decide in moments to do this or let his brother die. It goes without saying he won't let Sam die if he can prevent it.
I think Sam will forgive Dean about the whole angelic-pacemaker thing (desperate times, desperate measures and all) but will have a hard time getting past having his memory wiped; that's the part that's really gonna piss him off.

You could already see how heavily these choices are weighing on Dean; wondering how that's gonna play out because he really doesn't have anyone to confide in about this.
Yep, the mind wipe is not gonna go over well at all!! Again ,tough choice, do you tell Sam and let Sam eject Zeke in his anger thus putting Sam back in the hospital or worse? I think Dean may intend to tell Sam after he heals but won't risk it before. I don't know how it will unfold really. I just know I want to see how it does :-)
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2013-10-13 12:19
Hey SPN Soul Sister!

We see so much of the show the same way again! Loved your take on the decision Dean made in this opener. So much food for thought here. Really, when it comes down to it, how could it have gone any other way? They ARE SamANDDean. We need them that way.

I do hope, though, that we don't see the lie come back to tear them apart. I hope we see them mature beyond that---and I want to see what you wish for about Sam being grateful for what Dean has done and for being here with his brother. They can only stand against what's to happen next if they do so as a single unit.

Thanks so much for your take on it and I, like you, can't wait to see where it all goes next!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-13 15:02
I just don't see Sam not being furious about Dean's decision. Both about the possession and the mind wipe. Even Dean new that Sam would rather die than be possessed and we know from Lisa and Ben's mind wipe how Sam feels about that. This was an almost unforgivable violation of Sam's body. I don't for one minute blame Dean for what he did (it actually looked like Dean was about to do something even worse when he went to Crowley), but when Sam remembers what happened in the hospital, and he will, Dean has to know and be ready to accept the fallout. He can't turn this back on Sam. Dean has to be able to accept the possibility that he has caused a rift so wide it may never be forgiven and be okay with that. I for one don't want to see Sam forgive so easily this time. Maturity doesn't mean you have to accept whatever was done to you no matter how you have been violated and be happy or grateful about it. You can be mature and still be hurt and angry. We all know that Sam is going to come around in the end. I just want to see some real consequences for Dean's actions.
And by the way if I had the opportunity to save my loved ones lives by any means you be I would do it no matter what the consequences were for me.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-10-13 15:29
#34 Hi cheryl42 I honestly hope this isn't the case.

I don't see Sam's understanding as accepting whatever is done to him. I do believe he will be angry initially and I do believe eventually he'll understand and I hope with ever single fibre of my being that this doesn't cause a rift so wide it will never be forgiven, because that would mean Sam has no clue who Dean is or what motivates Dean and I don't believe that for a second. Sam does understand and know who his brother is and he has a big heart with a lot of room in it for forgiving Dean, especially when Dean's transgresions are about love. Sam did have the opportunity to go with Death, he instead chose to go with Dean - no questions asked - and that speaks volumes to what his brother means to him too.

The absolutely very last thing I want to see in this show ever again is the kind of rift we've seen in the brothers in past seasons. I'm hoping we're beyond that. I'm hoping they're beyond that.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-13 16:44
I do think that Sam will forgive Dean. I agree Sam knows what motivates his brother. Dean's love for his brother can never be questioned. I just think that Sam is going to be furious especially if he remembers that he was ready to go and Dean tricked him into to doing something that he would never agree to. And he has every right to be angry. What I don't want to see Is Dean not taking responsibility for his actions. He has to be ok with Sam's hurt and anger no matter the consequences. Just like Sam had to do after the raising of Lucifer. What I see happening is there will probably be a separation for a few episodes and then Dean will be in some sort of peril and Sam will realize that he would also do whatever it takes to save his brother. This show would not survive with a permanent rift between the brothers but JC set up a scenario that is going to cause a doozy of a conflict.
E
# E 2013-10-13 18:19
I think that Dean truly does feel bad about what he was quite literally forced to do, and I do think that Sam will be angry. How angry and for how long will probably have a lot to do with Ezekiel's actions while he's in Sam. If he's on the up and up, helps heal Sam and proves to be a worth ally to the boys in their fight against Metatron, then maybe Sam won't be so terribly angry or for two long. But what if Ezekiel is a mole.. what if he uses Sam, one of the two strongest vessels ever created to cause terrible things to happen? What if he takes over Sam and refuses to let him go again? Then I am not sure how long it will take Sam to find forgiveness as it would go to the heart of the thing he has been trying to avoid for years.

What I don't want to see ever again is a replay of the situation we had in The Mentalists, where Sam had every reason to be angry but then was told that he was being a "bitch" and that he should just get over it already because Dean was tired of dealing with it. I hated that Sam was made to apologize and admit that he was in the wrong over something he had every right to be mad about. It was one of very, very few moments that came about on this show that I have truly despised. I want Sam to feel the way he feels and not to have how he feels dictated to him by other people.
eilf
# eilf 2013-10-13 18:21
Quote:
I do think that Sam will forgive Dean. I agree Sam knows what motivates his brother. Dean's love for his brother can never be questioned. What I don't want to see Is Dean not taking responsibility for his actions. He has to be ok with Sam's hurt and anger no matter the consequences. Just like Sam had to do after the raising of Lucifer. What I see happening is there will probably be a separation for a few episodes and then Dean will be in some sort of peril and Sam will realize that he would also do whatever it takes to save his brother.
Hi Cheryl while I agree with you about Sam needing time and understanding to be angry I really don't see how the show can write it without it reflecting badly on Sam. Honestly it is crazy but there it is.

I get Sam's mindset when he is angry or hurt. He needs time to think, he needs space from the person who hurts him and then when he is feeling logical again he can return with all forgiven (It would be a bonus if the person asked/wanted to be forgiven but that isn't always going to happen, sometimes you just have to let things go). Now in general, on the show, specifically in relation to Sam, this is referred to as 'running away' and is not approved of. So really the show can't go that route.

I had a whole extra bit here about the injustice of both The Mentalists resolution and Southern Comfort's resolution but, you know, life is too short so I deleted it. Suffice it to say there is almost no way in which Sam will be allowed the space to be angry at Dean (or anyone else for that matter) and there isn't really too much chance of it here, cathartic and all as it would be.

Sam got over the other things, he always does, because he actually has huge empathy for Dean as well as his love for him, and he knows why Dean does the things he does. Depending on how he comes to see it it might not even be the worst thing that has been done to him - it all depends on how he feels about being tricked into accepting an angel into him (which isn't the same thing as being talked into wanting to live - those are 2 separate issues). I assume he will understand that it was a Dean way of doing things.

In all honesty if Dean doesn't work out for himself what was the wrong part of all this (and it isn't wanting to save his brother that was the wrong bit) then there actually isn't any point in being angry with him since he did it with the best intentions and in a panic. It seems clear does already know and I hope by the time it comes around to the showdown he hasn't decided to justify it to himself as being ok. (and again, let me clarify, that I am talking about the trick with the angel, not any of the rest of it)
eilf
# eilf 2013-10-13 18:25
Quote:

What I don't want to see ever again is a replay of the situation we had in The Mentalists, where Sam had every reason to be angry but then was told that he was being a "bitch" and that he should just get over it already because Dean was tired of dealing with it. I hated that Sam was made to apologize and admit that he was in the wrong over something he had every right to be mad about. It was one of very, very few moments that came about on this show that I have truly despised. I want Sam to feel the way he feels and not to have how he feels dictated to him by other people.
Oh my, E, I just had exactly the same thing in my post including the injustice of describing Sam's anger as 'being a bitch about it' and then Sam apologising. I hadn't even seen your comment ;-)
There really are a few things that rankle aren't there?
E
# E 2013-10-13 18:56
eilf, Heh! I saw your reply just after I posted mine! Yeah, some things sure do grate on the nerves don't they. For some reason Sam is not allowed to be upset for any length of time on this show. Dean can be mad for whole seasons, but Sam's "being a bitch" if he's mad for over one episode. :-x . Sorry, that's going to come across as Dean bashing, and I truly don't mean it to be, I love Dean and really felt that he had no option in 9x1 other than to let Sammy go, which just wasn't gonna happen. For once though, I'd like it if Sam was allowed to react how he's going to react and not have to do so on someone else's time table or be made to apologize for having done NOTHING wrong other than be upset. I am also concerned that if he does in fact get upset that he will be accused of "being ungrateful." Sometimes the poor boy can't seem to catch a break.

I do wonder if having Ezekiel inside Sam will give the writers a way to reveal some of Sam's inner workings and dig a little more into his thoughts. Would Ezekiel tell Dean information that he gleans from being inside Sam's head? That would be the kind of thing I could see this show doing. The fans have been complaining about the lack of Sam POV, and TPTB could use the Ezekiel thing to give it to us in a way that raises even more questions and potential problems than it solves by giving us that much needed insight. I'd love to see that happen.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-13 19:20
E and eilf The Mentalists was exactly what was going through my mind. I want to see Dean taking responsibility for what he has done. Sam has been violated since he was an infant. He has never known what it feels like to be a human and only a human. You can see the anguish on Dean's face. He knows how horrible his decision was. And it just got even more horrible as they left the hospital. I just want Dean to accept the inevitable hurt and anger from Sam. Which means I would like for the writers to not turn this back around on Sam. Sam may have to do some soul searching for awhile to get his head around the situation (maybe during Moose/drop #2) I just hope this situation is handled better than it was in S7.
eilf
# eilf 2013-10-13 19:43
E and Cheryl - well they couldn't possibly handle it any worse than TM so there is that going for it :-*

E that is my hope too the boys badly need a mediator and I would hope that Ezekiel could be that, and it is part of the reason I am pretty convinced he isn't a bad guy. I would rather see the guys sort this out before it comes to a major blow-up.

(not at all a serious comment) All the girls in fandom drooling over the cuteness seems to be a good way of making the writers write an unlikely good guy as a good guy (mentioning no names) so I suggest we start posting pics of Ezekiel on the Pretty thread :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-10-13 19:47
I'm another one who was totally put off by The Mentalists. Sam had a right to be angry then and he has a right to be angry now. However the show has undercut Sam's right to be angry and so much of fandom has taken the side that Sam has no right to be angry with Dean. So I'm really concerned about how this will go. Dean couldn't let Sam go, but Sam was finally feeling purified and completely human and Dean tricking him into saying yes to Ezekiel means that he isn't totally human AGAIN. And I worry that the show will focus so exclusively on Dean's guilt that they will manipulate our sympathies to see Dean's pain and discount Sam's because after all Sam is alive so Sam should be grateful. I hope I'm wrong. We shall see.
st50
# st50 2013-10-13 20:16
I agree with a lot of this discussion. I also hated TM for all the reasons you've mentioned. I'd love for Sam to be able to be mad when he's mad, to take time to sort things out without being accused of running away, and to forgive and let go of his anger/upset as and when he is ready to ... as he has been shown to be able to do time and again.

I'd love for Dean to be able to vocalize to Sam the guilt and regret and understanding that I know that he actually feels.

That having been said, I've resolved to stop letting a vocal part of the fandom (that insists on seeing Sam (and Dean) in a negative light) dictate how I analyze their actions this season. I see them based on my own perceptions, in which neither is always right or always wrong, and both act based on deep and profound love for the other. And I'm going to stick with my own perceptions, even when that means I need to back off from the fandom.

Happy Thanksgiving all! I am very thankful for my favourite show being back - 9 seasons in, with no sign of the fatigue most shows show long before this! :-)
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-13 20:51
Hi st50- Thank you so much for that comment! Backing off does wonders for perspective sometimes. Feeling a little fandom fatigue at the moment. I want to take it as it unfolds, not project ahead or judge the guys by past poor behavior or decisions. I hope and want them to do better.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-13 21:28
i believe that carver took great care to bring the boys to where they are now and it's been 8 years in the making. carver did what no other showrunner has done and brought the boy's relationship to a new level of maturity and understanding. i have faith enough in carver, who did an incredible job of getting the boys where they are now to continue on this path, otherwise why go through all the trouble in the first place.
it would be highly unlikely that sam would not be upset with dean. of course that's inevitable, as dean is certainly well aware. he is after all keeping a very important secret from his brother. he knows keeping the secret will inevitably bite him in the ass, but fear is dean's driving force and when and when it comes to protecting his brother, fear wins every time. but it's my belief that both boys are in a very different place than they've been before. in sacrifice, the boys have finally reached an understanding in the way they percieve ea. other that they never really had before. for sam, well, sam has long believed that he has failed his brother so many times, that dean no longer trusted in him, that dean would rather turn to others instead of him. he saw himself last in dean's eyes. dean, in a rare emotional burst of truth and honesty, told sam, under no uncertain terms, that there is no one, past or present that will ever come before his brother. he loves him more than anyone, always has, always will,, disappointments or no. so for the first time, sam has true confirmation, that dean loves him. loves him despite his deemed failures against his brother.
i think carver is going to handle this in a way that the fandom doesn't expect, because before carver, the boys have always handled their fights, well let's just say, not in a very mature fashion. they fought not as men...but as sibling brothers. well carver has moved the boys on to the level where they are mature men. i believe carver will handle the situation between sam and dean in a more mature fashion than they have in the past. it's my belief that carver will have the boys talk. that's something they really don't do when they fight. i think this time, they will talk it out, deal with the anger, the hurt, the guilt...really take the time to work it out. not just have sam get angry, dean feel bad and then shove it all under the rug and move on...but have sam and dean discuss their feelings, not in a chick flick way, but discuss all of it. from dean's fear and guilt to sam's anger and hurt ...just lay it out there...a true heart to heart...that's the mature route i'd like to see, and the one that i think carver will take. why, well for one, it's a route that's never been taken before. and second, carver brought them to the next level in their relationship and created a stronger and more mature bond, by having the boys be more open with ea. other, (the great escapist & sacrifice). this is a major step in the path of the boys maturing relationship and one that i have no doubt carver will continue to take.
i'm not worried about any rifts, i don't think there will be a major divide between the boys. i think sam and dean will get through it. in all honesty i think the fandom is harder on the boys then they are on ea. other. ;-)

so seriously ... if the boys were at bobby's when they met up with crowley and all they seemingly did was drive a few miles out of town to an abandoned church they found, how did they end up in a hospital in ny? did i blink and miss something?
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-13 22:03
nappi :-) I love how you think! As for the NY hospital, I don't think anyone has come up with an explanation for that yet or how they got there so fast. There is a chocolate chip cookie in it if anyone does, ok?
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-10-13 22:21
#46 - nappi I love this comment and I agree with you about Carver and I too hope this is where he goes. That we are surprised, that the expected reaction doesn't happen, but that the maturity and connection that the boys experienced at the end of season 8 is furthered and that they talk instead of yell. I want this so bad that I'm too scared to think about it! But I too believe in Carver and believe him when he says he is working the guys back to being brothers again - old school - that seemed to be the point of the end of 8, so I can't imagine him going backwards on that. Fingers crossed and toes and anything else!

As for the trip from the church to NY...isn't the Impala magic? It certainly has seemed to be in the past! :P
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-13 22:41
anyone see the muppet movie...not the original, the new one...maybe it's like with kermit and his friends and they just did the red line thing on the map...... :D
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-13 22:46
St50- Oh! Canadian Thanksgiving!! Happy Thanksgiving to you, If it is still Thanksgiving there. In Texas (?). That will confuse everyone. :-)
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-13 23:08
I thought the general consensus here was that Sam has every right to be upset. Or are we talking about the internet fandom in general who are frankly often rude or 15 yrs old?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-10-13 23:36
Quote:
I thought the general consensus here was that Sam has every right to be upset. Or are we talking about the internet fandom in general who are frankly often rude or 15 yrs old?
From this various threads on the episode on this board
From sweetondean's articleQuote:
My one great and stupid hope is that this time around, maybe Sam might understand Dean and his motivation. Maybe his understanding of who his brother is and how far they have come together, will allow him an understanding of the situation. Maybe he’ll be thankful for a second chance at hope and a second shot at the life he’s long dreamed of. But I know he probably won’t. This is “Supernatural” after all and there are no happy endings. Sam will most likely be mad. Feel betrayed. ...

But wouldn’t it be nice if we were all surprised. Wouldn’t it be nice if Sam said, “You know, Dean…I don’t agree with how you went about it and you shouldn’t have lied to me because you know I hate that, but I get it because it’s who you are and you’re my brother and I love you (boop) and thanks for giving me another shot at life. I’m glad to be here.”
From Sophia's article

Quote:
'm sorry but Sam did make a choice when he said "yes" to Dean's plan. Sam didn't say "Well, that depends on the plan or I only agree if it's within these perimeters." He put himself in Dean's hands knowing full well how far Dean is willing to go to save him. The brothers made a choice for Sam to live....
Sam could have asked for more details before he said yes or he could have just said no, so I do believe he did make a choice, to put the decision in Dean's hands. Sam wasn't under the same time constraint as Dean because he was controlling when he went with Death.

Another post in Sofia's article
I don't think Dean was being selfish and I hope he does remind Sam that he had a part in the choice

and this
Sam agreed to whatever plan Dean had.
All these quotes seem to put the blame on Sam for believing Dean and state that Sam should not even be angry at Dean's actions. Especially I hope he does remind Sam that he had a part in the choice So even on this board there are those who do not believe in any way that Dean did the wrong thing and that Sam has no RIGHT to be upset.
st50
# st50 2013-10-13 23:59
#52 -
The operative word being SEEM. Yes, those quotes can be read as coming down on Sam, if you want to isolate them like that. But when you read the rest of the articles, I don't believe that was the intention by either author.

I think we are all quick to react in defense of one brother or the other, sometimes before either actually needs defending. This is part of what I meant in my post above - The reacting in defense of one character often seems to escalate into slighting of the other, and I have resolved to not join the fray, .
TPTB have obviously strayed into a rather touchy subject matter with the consent issue, and things are liable to get even more interesting, yet.

Let's wait and see how it plays out. :-)
st50
# st50 2013-10-14 00:01
#50 - Yes, Leah. It's Canadian Thanksgiving - we celebrate both! Double feasting!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-14 00:02
I just think things are going to get darker before they get lighter. JC created a situation that was sure to be controversial. I just hope that it is handled well. I don't want to see either brother vilified for their actions or reactions. Sam was tricked. There is no other way to look at it. Dean was depending on Sam's trust in him. Sam is going to be furious. Dean had no other option that was acceptable to him. He had to do what he did. It was a crappy choice in a crappy situation. Since this is the scenario were are given we can only gasp and hope for the best.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-10-14 00:13
Well, I for one never blame either brother and if that hasn't been clear over the past season and in this piece - I honestly don't know why I'm bothering, because obviously I am not making that case very well.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-10-14 00:23
I didn't mean to imply that you did blame either brother sweetondean. I know you don't. The statement was that the consensus was that what Dean did was wrong and that it was 15 year olds on other boards who were saying what Dean did was okay. The comments I quoted happened to be on your and Sophia's threads and I was just noting that even on this board there are posters who think blaming Dean for anything is wrong. I just think there is less of a consensus on what Dean did. The longer the writers drag this out, I think the split among fans will grow.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-14 00:50
That wasn't what I said, Percysowner! I just said that I thought most people here thought Sam had a right to be angry. The "other boards" thing was just a lame attempt to discredit any of the rude comments you might be seeing about Sam. Dean wasn't even mentioned by me! To clarify I do think what Dean was possibly wrong, but I totally understand why he did it, love him for it, and have said as much in several comments. And there will be ramifications. Maybe bad ones!
CJ
# CJ 2013-10-14 05:37
This was one of the best reviews I have read so far. sweetondean - ur article mirrored my feelings on this episode. I felt Dean did what he did from a place of love. I mentioned this on another post (sorry for repeating) but I think some of the other reasons Dean did what he did could be 1) the promise he made to Sam in Trail & Error that he wanted Sam to lead a long life 2) the speech Sam made to Dean in that same episode about wanting to live and the light at the end of the tunnel 3) the fact that Dean felt like the guilty cheerleader cos it should have been him doing the trials and therefore it should be him dying and not Sam (from Dean's perspective). I think the last part would have played into the decision big time since Dean was always saying the trials should have been on him.
I liked this episode becos to me it showed how important both brothers were to each other. Sam chose Dean over Death. That's the bottom line. I was happy he did that. I'm an eternal optimist and I always believe the brothers will choose each other in the end no matter what.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-14 08:54
Quote:
#46 - nappi I love this comment and I agree with you about Carver and I too hope this is where he goes. That we are surprised, that the expected reaction doesn't happen, but that the maturity and connection that the boys experienced at the end of season 8 is furthered and that they talk instead of yell. I want this so bad that I'm too scared to think about it! But I too believe in Carver and believe him when he says he is working the guys back to being brothers again - old school - that seemed to be the point of the end of 8, so I can't imagine him going backwards on that. Fingers crossed and toes and anything else!

As for the trip from the church to NY...isn't the Impala magic? It certainly has seemed to be in the past! :P
thanks sweetondean. i for one have always been a silver lining type gal, so i tend to look at things, once i'm calm and collected in a "not as bad as it seems" kind of light. in all honesty, i'm not worried about sam being angry for more than perhaps 15 minutes top in the episode, if that long. it would as i said be part of his natural reaction. anger dean didn't say anything sooner, hurt that dean didn't tell him sooner, understanding of dean's motivation and reasons, i mean dean is running off fear, and fear is a very powerful motivator. but the feeling that i believe will linger on regarding sam, because of sam's nature and his love for his brother, is the fear and concern for dean that will come from learning he owes a debt now. whether zeke is on the up and up or not, i still feel like dean made a deal with a loan shark. he's gotta pay, and as loan sharks do, they start charging interest if the debt isn't paid on time...then it gets scarier and harder for the poor bastard who needed the loan in the first place...i just think if sam does indeed dwell on anything, it will be his fear for his brother and what it will mean for him. i don't think there will be resentment. they've come so far and are at such a different place right now, one of clarity, understanding and honesty that they've never really been before. moreso, they're older and wiser and experienced in so many ways than that of the past. though the way they feel about ea. other will never change and they will always do anything it takes to keep ea. other alive, i think the aftermath of it, the way they handle it will be different. as i said i beleive it will be handled more maturely now with more openess and honestly , unlike their old selves where they got pissed then shoved it under the rug without actually dealing with their feelings. i really feel this time around there will actually be a heart to heart discussion..(ag ain i could of sworn i read a tweet over the summer somewhere where someone said in regards to this season i believe that eppy 9 was very well written and had a lot of heart or something to that effect. since last year's eppy 9 was cf and there was no heart to heart, i think the tweet regarded this season. i hate that i can never remember where i see things. :sad: ) regardless of the tweet though, my feelings are still the same. now i understand not everything will change, which is why i believe so absolutely that sam will go from anger, hurt, understanding to finally fear for the safety of his brother...that' s the feeling that sam will keep....that will be his driving force...to protect his brother and stand by him no matter what zeke asks for in return...winche ster love, as reliable and certain as death and taxes.. :lol:
E
# E 2013-10-14 09:35
Well, I for one LOVE the brother conflict; how can this show function without the brother's in conflict with one another?! It's part of their dynamic as brothers and an integrel part of the show; without out conflict there is no drama and no insight; I say BRING IT. :D And Carver has set up a doozy of a conflict this time around with neither brother totally in the right nor totally in the wrong; it seems nicely balanced. It's the best kind of conflict IMO which will hopefully yield much angst and manpain. I am with nappi815, I think that the conflict between them will be dealt with differently than what we've seen in the past. One of the most important things that I feel Carver is doing (along with revitalizing the show in terms of plot) is to alter the dynamic between the brothers so that they do not stagnate or remain trapped in a past pattern that looks continually more and more immature as they grow older. Slamming each other into walls was the conflict resolution of them as teenagers and young men. Now, the boys must evolve and how they deal with one another must evolve as well, and the best way to do that is to give them a big conflict (as is always the case with these two) and then CHANGE how they deal with it. Time will tell, but that's what I am hoping for.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-10-14 12:47
nappi815 & E (#60/61) I agree with you both. E, I like a bit of man pain too. I don't believe these brothers, grownass men, so different from each other and living in each other's back pockets would not have conflict, whether over life of death decisions or Dean squeezing the toothpaste tube from the middle! They must at times drive each other bonkers! Well, they do! We know that! But I also agree these are different men to who they've been portrayed as in the past, and last season there was a conscious effort to get them to a more mature place in how they deal with each other, so I too believe this is something we will continue to see. Even Dean's internal struggle over this decision was a different process to what we've seen in the past. Even if he got to the same place, he certainly felt deeply conflicted by it and that was new. So yes, I'm hoping and optimistically believing we're going to see the brothers dealing with this latest conflict in a more mature and emotionally satisfying way.

And nappi, I too am a silver lining, glass half full kind of gal! So I can't help but feel hopeful! :D
Pragmatic Dreamer
# Pragmatic Dreamer 2013-10-14 16:48
Dear Sweetondean, That was a beautiful review. And I heartily agree - it is, and always will be SamandDean. It is their strength and their greatest weakness. It's their strength in the sense that it's the love they have for each other that keeps them fighting the good fight. I think after all they've been through, it's probably the reason they get up in the morning. But, it's also their weakness because they can not envision a world without the other in it, and so they make desperate choices to ensure that never happens.

I think there was a small part of Sam who wanted to choose Death - a death that would be final and followed by peace, and that would somehow keep his brother safe. But I think the much larger part of him wanted to fight and to live. He kept asking about a plan, what's the plan. His "What do I do?" was an echo of his "How do I stop?" in the church. As soon as Dean presented a plan, he was eager to go with it.

Certainly there's an element of selfishness in Dean saving Sam. He wants his brother alive. He said it himself. If Sam ceases to exist, then so will he. But he also was saving Sam so that Sam could do all those things he dreams of. I don't think it was Sam's time to die. I don't think Sam really believed it was his time to die. The trials aren't a natural end for him.

I think it's also worth pointing out that way back In My Time of Dying, Dean was willing to go with Tessa, if that was for the greater good - meaning protecting Sam from having to kill a venegeful spirit Dean. Again, Sam is willing to die for the greater good - meaning protecting Dean from doing something dangerous to try & save him again.

I kind of expected the angelic possession. I think Sam is going to start having suspicions about what's going on. Then, I think it will come to a head when he is suddenly able to save a terribly injured Dean. When the truth comes out, it is going to be so, so messy and painful. There's going to be tears! And eventually, understanding and forgiveness, and maybe a little gratitude? (I can hope!) Also, on the subject of tears - did you see it?? The One Perfect Tear! It made an appearance when Dean was praying in the chapel.

I also have much to say on the subject of lying and trust. I don't think Dean's actions mean he doesn't trust Sam. I think he totally trusts Sam (especially to be angry when he founds out what Dean did). But he is between a rock and hard place. If Sam finds out about his angelic pacemaker too early he'll die. So what choice does Dean have? I think we actually saw some character growth for Dean. He didn't make any of these decisions easily. He's already stumbling under their weight, and he knows how profound and potentially relationship changing they are. But at least Sam will be alive. As for lying? I think at some point we've all pondered lying to protect someone we love.

So many think thoughts! So many feels!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2013-10-14 18:58
Thank you, Pragmatic Dreamer your words beautifully echo everything I think and feel.

These two. They make my heart swell and ache with love and pound with fear and dread and they make me cry tears mixed with sheer joy and agony!

How can two characters affect us all so profoundly. What a beautiful thing.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 07:51
Quote:
I just don't see Sam not being furious about Dean's decision. Both about the possession and the mind wipe. Even Dean new that Sam would rather die than be possessed and we know from Lisa and Ben's mind wipe how Sam feels about that. This was an almost unforgivable violation of Sam's body. I don't for one minute blame Dean for what he did (it actually looked like Dean was about to do something even worse when he went to Crowley), but when Sam remembers what happened in the hospital, and he will, Dean has to know and be ready to accept the fallout. He can't turn this back on Sam. Dean has to be able to accept the possibility that he has caused a rift so wide it may never be forgiven and be okay with that. I for one don't want to see Sam forgive so easily this time. Maturity doesn't mean you have to accept whatever was done to you no matter how you have been violated and be happy or grateful about it. You can be mature and still be hurt and angry. We all know that Sam is going to come around in the end. I just want to see some real consequences for Dean's actions.
And by the way if I had the opportunity to save my loved ones lives by any means you be I would do it no matter what the consequences were for me.
The bolded part I perfectly agree with
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-15 17:22
anonymousN It looks like from recent interviews with JC that this situation is not going to be resolved so easily. I will be interesting to see how it gets handled. I don't want Dean punished or for him to suffer but he made a decision that really was a violation of the most serious kind. I don't want to see it resolved in a few minutes and then we are movin' on.