After what feels like an eternity (dramatic much?) we are finally at the start of season 9. Last season I joked about how good it feels to end a season without a dead Winchester. I mean, Sam was conscious at the end of the season 8 finale so that was a win in my book. I even naively hoped that maybe the angels falling had somehow cured him. I know it makes no sense, but a girl can dream, right?

Well, it turns out that Sam was far from cured. In fact, he was basically dead. I thought finishing the trials was going to kill him, but it looks like he was dead either way. And Dean being the loving and desperate brother that he is decides to offer himself up to any angel who will come to Sam's rescue.

Dean: "OK, listen up. This one goes out to any angel with their ears on. This is Dean Winchester and I need your help."

As soon as he sent that prayer out over angel radio I thought we were going to have another deal on our hands. There is no doubt in my mind that Dean would trade his life in for Sam's. He's done it before and he wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

As the angels flocked to the hospital I assumed they were coming for Dean's vessel; Sam's life in exchange for a healthy vessel. But it turns out all they wanted was to find Cass. We knew Cass was in trouble right? Of course he would take the fall for Metatron's spell. Sure he didn't know the angels would fall, but he was trying to close the gates of Heaven which really isn't helping his case either.

promo010
This is where we meet our new friend Ezekiel. I use the word "friend" hesitantly. So far he has a few things going for him. He saved Dean and he claims to still believe in his mission. Cass seems to trust him which is a good sign. (Although Cass also trusted Hale so we'll take that with a grain of salt.) And let's not forget he saved Sam from certain death. He gets something out of it of course. While healing Sam from the inside, he'll also be healing himself.
promo003
Sam was really about to do it, wasn't he? He was ready to die. His whole internal struggle was so interesting and sad to watch. Dean is cast as the part of Sam that wants to fight for his life but he can't figure out a plan to do so. Meanwhile, Bobby (!) plays the part of Sam that wants to just give in and die already. The proverbial angel and devil on his shoulder. The hard part for Sam is that both sides make a compelling argument. Sure he wants to fight to live, if only for Dean's sake, but he doesn't know how. And at the same time, he's been through a lot. His body is weak and broken and it might just be time to let go.

So once again, Dean steps in and makes a call for his brother. He let's Ezekiel possess Sam and wipe his memory. With the help of Ezekiel, Dean is able to step into Sam's mind and persuade him to keep fighting.

Dean: "I made you a promise in that church. You and me come whatever. But hell if this ain't whatever. But you gotta let me in, you gotta let me help. There ain't no me if there ain't no you."
Sam: "What do I do?"

And for the second time in two episodes Dean is able to persuade Sam not to give up on him yet. Was he being totally honest about his plan? No. Was it selfish? Yes. Was it fair to Sam? Probably not. Am I happy with Dean’s decision? Hell yes. I can’t take another dead Winchester. And while I’m not feeling overly confident in this plan, it’s better than nothing.

Here’s the deal as I understand it. Ezekiel possesses Sam to fix him from the inside. This also benefits Ezekiel as he uses Sam's vessel to heal himself. (I'm still a little fuzzy on how that works) He wipes Sam's memory so that he doesn't remember his decision to die. In return, Dean has to keep the possession from Sam because if Sam finds out that Ezekiel is still inside of him, he can eject him which will kill both Sam and Ezekiel. Once Sam is healed, Ezekiel claims that he will leave Sam's body. That remains to be seen.

I know some of you are thinking the same thing as me. Will this secret become another wedge to drive between Sam and Dean? I like brotherly drama as much as the next person but I'm really happy with where Sam and Dean's relationship is right now. I'm not ready for them to be keeping secrets from each other. I do understand that this has to be done in order to save Sam and since I'm all about keeping him alive, I'm not upset with this decision. But I do wonder if Sam would even be mad if Dean just told him the truth? Dean tells Ezekiel that Sam would never say yes to Ezekiel possessing him, but I don't know about that. Even while Sam was struggling internally, he seemed open to the idea of continuing to fight if Dean could offer him a plan to do so. Isn't this a plan? I mean, possession isn't ideal, but at least it's an angel that Cass trusts. What do you guys think, would Sam have been pissed if he knew what Dean did? And now we wait for him to find out because, let's face it, he will.

I am really excited about the world of possibilities this season premier has left us with. Obviously, there are many questions to be answered; will Sam ever truly heal? If he is healed, will Ezekiel honor his agreement and leave Sam's body? Will he expect a vessel in exchange? How will Cass adapt to being human? What's up with Crowley? Is he good, is he bad? Where is Metatron? And what the heck are they going to do about all these angels?

At this point, I can't even begin to wager a guess. What about you guys? Any predictions for this upcoming season? (Please warn us before including spoilers!)

And finally, here are some quotes and stray observations worth mentioning.

Am I the only one who worries that the title of this episode is some kind of foreshadowing to  Ezekiel getting a little too comfortable in Sam’s body?

The Road So Far - What a great montage and I love that song.

The new angel wing title card is really fun. They do a great job with these every year.

Doctor: "I'm afraid that's in God's hands now."
Dean: "God has nothing to do with this equation at all. That's not good enough!"
I ask again, will we ever meet God in this series?

Cass: “I would fly, but I have no wings. Not anymore.”

Bobby: “Excuse me, are you dead? Because I am.” Oh Bobby, I’ve missed you!

Payphone guy: “I’m gonna finish this call, then I’m gonna stab you.”

Dean: “I’ve got the king of Hell in my trunk”
This quote can only be surpassed by Dean calling Crowley “the junk in his trunk” in next week’s promo.

I loved when Hale talked about building “a grand canyon”. And Cass says, “The Grand Canyon, yes.” It was such an early Cass moment. I bet he got a little taste of what Sam and Dean experienced from him when he came into their lives.

Bobby: “How many people can say that they left this god-forsaken hunk of dirt a better place?”

There was quite a lot of tension going on in Sam’s mind.
Dean kills Bobby “I know it stings, but he had to go”
And then he punches Sam “My plan is to fight, My plan is to try”

Dean: “Anybody ever tell you you hit like an angel.”

Dean: “If Heaven is locked, then where do you go when I do this?” What a badass.

I love that Death considers it an honor to collect Sam.

Sam: “If I go with you, do you promise that this time it will be final. That if I’m dead, I stay dead...nobody else can get hurt because of me.”

Hale’s broken legs were one of the goriest things we’ve seen on this show to date. I couldn’t look away.

Ezekiel is acting as Sam’s “Angelic pacemaker.”

9.1 Cass
I felt so bad for Cass in the laundromat. He wanted to clean his bloody clothes but he was clearly hungry and needed the money for food. But then I have to ask why he spent money on water which is free! Just saying… And he left his trenchcoat behind which just broke my heart.

Sam: “We’ve got work to do.” This shout out to season one made my fangirl heart explode.

Comments  

nuke333
# nuke333 2013-10-09 20:45
Loooooved the season premiere. A few random comments:
1. The Originals sucked(no pun intended- well maybe)
2. The opening sequence was my favorite to date.
3. Ezekiel is hot(Sam possed by Ezekiel=equally hot)
4. Didn't know an angel could trick you into becoming it's vessel
4. Really looking forward to Cass's journey this season
5. Loved seeing Bobby and Death, but I'm afraid this may be the only time
6. Did I already say, the premiere ROCKED!
Annie
# Annie 2013-10-09 22:37
I want my Bobby back. Not dreams or ghosts, for real and forever.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-10-09 22:55
Quote:
Cass seems to trust him which is a good sign.
Actually Cas vouched for the angel Ezekiel. Cas wasn't there to check out if this is Ezekiel or just another angel (who Dean might not trust i.e. Lucifer, Michael, not so dead Raphael, not so dead Gabriel, angel named as being one of Lucifer's cohorts during the war on heaven) using Ezekiel's name. I used to remind my daughter anyone can pretend to be anything on the Internet, and Lord knows Sam and Dean have presented ID on hundreds of names that aren't their own, so I'm not trusting Ezekiel so much right now.

In The Road So Far we saw both Mrs Tran and Naomi. I hope that means there is some chance for one or both of them to come back. Mrs. Tran died off screen and we never saw Naomi's wings, so it's possible. I would at least like Mrs Tran back so Kevin hasn't lost everything.
eilf
# eilf 2013-10-09 22:59
Quote:
But I do wonder if Sam would even be mad if Dean just told him the truth? Dean tells Ezekiel that Sam would never say yes to Ezekiel possessing him, but I don't know about that. Even while Sam was struggling internally, he seemed open to the idea of continuing to fight if Dean could offer him a plan to do so. Isn't this a plan? I mean, possession isn't ideal, but at least it's an angel that Cass trusts. What do you guys think, would Sam have been pissed if he knew what Dean did? And now we wait for him to find out because, let's face it, he will.
You know what it comes down to is this, LUCIFER was an angel. So yes Dean is perfectly right to think that Sam wouldn't want it and, yes, Sam is gonna be mad when he finds out (for about 10 seconds because Sam is never mad for long - no matter what is done to him it never gets mentioned by him again either). More to the point he will be entitled to be mad when he finds out. Especially if at the point where he needs to eject Ezekiel Ezekiel doesn't want to leave :-?
One point you brought up gave me an idea though .... what are the chances that, assuming Ezekiel lives up to his side of the bargain, he wants his favor from Dean to be Dean as his permanent vessel?
eilf
# eilf 2013-10-09 23:01
Cas's smile when he heard Ezekiel's name was so sweet - hey look Cas had angel friends and some of them are (apparently) still alive!
amyh
# amyh 2013-10-09 23:44
I thinbk Sam will be pissed simply because information as taken away from him...his free will was taken aaway from him. If Dean has simply laid out all the information and offered a solution I think Sam would have given INFORMED consent.

Its why Sam and JOhn butted heads and argued so much. JOhn refused to give Sam any information...i t was always Johns idea of "need to know" and Sam was never in the info chain.

Sam wont be angry about being saved. he will be angry about the lie. Just like when Dean killed Amy...sam was far more upset that Dean LIED. Dean claims he trusts Sam. Claims he repsects Sam.
To Sam it will be obvious That what Dean said in the church was empty words...words he used to manipulate Sam.
eilf
# eilf 2013-10-10 00:05
Quote:
I thinbk Sam will be pissed simply because information as taken away from him...his free will was taken aaway from him. If Dean has simply laid out all the information and offered a solution I think Sam would have given INFORMED consent.

Its why Sam and JOhn butted heads and argued so much. JOhn refused to give Sam any information...it was always Johns idea of "need to know" and Sam was never in the info chain.

Sam wont be angry about being saved. he will be angry about the lie. Just like when Dean killed Amy...sam was far more upset that Dean LIED. Dean claims he trusts Sam. Claims he repsects Sam.
To Sam it will be obvious That what Dean said in the church was empty words...words he used to manipulate Sam.
Amyh I wasn't convinced by the logic of Dean's argument in the church either BUT I do believe he meant the emotion behind it. He just really doesn't understand his own mindset when it comes to Sam - it is just sense memory - Sam must be protected. Never mind that 'Dean' can (and has) jumped into 'Sam's' arms more than once without noticeably causing him too much hassle - Sam is a big strong lad. His 'manipulations' come from that, and he really doesn't mean anything bad about it, he just can't help it.

Honestly if Sam were more open about how he is (not) dealing with stuff Dean would very likely listen to him and try not to invade his space and decision making. Sam needs someone to listen to his decisions and understand his reasons without judging and Dean needs someone he trusts to work with him and he needs family.

Storyline wise Dean has had it that no matter what decision he makes it always works out well enough for him to think he is the best one to make decisions, even for other people. Maybe it is time that he started to see that other people have the right to make their own decisions, and that if their decisions have bad consequences that doesn't automatically mean that they have let him down. He would be a happier person for that :D

I really hope that is where this is going (in between more fun stuff)
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-10-10 01:04
Storyline wise Dean has had it that no matter what decision he makes it always works out well enough for him to think he is the best one to make decisions, even for other people. Maybe it is time that he started to see that other people have the right to make their own decisions, and that if their decisions have bad consequences that doesn't automatically mean that they have let him down. He would be a happier person for that :D

Eilf ... I totally agree with this! And to take it further sometimes he's cut off both Sam (end of S4 when they had the blowup about Ruby) and Cas (end of season 6) to the point that they didn't really have another choice. Now, both Sam and Cas made the wrong choices but maybe if he'd calm down and try a different tactic, like maybe listening, he may have been able talk them both down. Or not, but always seems like he takes everything so personally and bottles it up. On the other hand, if there wasn't angst between the brothers and also Cas it would be a pretty boring show so there is that!

BTW if anyone reads the post and thinks I'm hating on Dean, I love Dean, Sam and Cas for both their strengths and their flaws (and they all have them, it's supposed to be that way) so please don't get upset with me!
kaj
# kaj 2013-10-10 02:10
Hi sofia,

I think this dialog steal my attention

Dean: "I made you a promise in that church. You and me come whatever. But hell if this ain't whatever. But you gotta let me in, you gotta let me help. There ain't no me if there ain't no you."
Sam: "What do I do?"

I notice that Sam didn't even ask about the plan, didn't even ask Dean if he's real or not, didn't even ask if the plan is dangerous or not, didn't even ask about the stake or the deal, didn't even hesitate to say Yes to his big brother.

I think that implies that Sam really didn't wanna die if there was a way. Dean had been and has been Sam's Stone No.1. Whenever Sam feels down the only thing he got to do is to hold on Dean. Big brother will take care of it.

Poor Sam thinking that he was being tricked because he looked surprised when Dean morphed to Ezekiel
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2013-10-10 05:16
well well well, Dean never learns right?

riddle me this- Who's the Angel & Devil in this?

oh wait, Bobby is the Devil????? ok

SMDH
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-10-10 07:46
Quote:
Hi sofia,

I think this dialog steal my attention

Dean: "I made you a promise in that church. You and me come whatever. But hell if this ain't whatever. But you gotta let me in, you gotta let me help. There ain't no me if there ain't no you."
Sam: "What do I do?"

I notice that Sam didn't even ask about the plan, didn't even ask Dean if he's real or not, didn't even ask if the plan is dangerous or not, didn't even ask about the stake or the deal, didn't even hesitate to say Yes to his big brother.

I think that implies that Sam really didn't wanna die if there was a way. Dean had been and has been Sam's Stone No.1. Whenever Sam feels down the only thing he got to do is to hold on Dean. Big brother will take care of it.

Poor Sam thinking that he was being tricked because he looked surprised when Dean morphed to Ezekiel
I don't think Sam wanted to die; he simply saw no other options and made peace with the fact that he was going to die. If Dean was so sure that Sam would be okay with this, then why did he agree to have Ezekiel wipe his memory? That's the part that's really gonna piss off Sam when he finds out.
sofia
# sofia 2013-10-10 08:23
Quote:
Hi sofia,

I think this dialog steal my attention

Dean: "I made you a promise in that church. You and me come whatever. But hell if this ain't whatever. But you gotta let me in, you gotta let me help. There ain't no me if there ain't no you."
Sam: "What do I do?"

I notice that Sam didn't even ask about the plan, didn't even ask Dean if he's real or not, didn't even ask if the plan is dangerous or not, didn't even ask about the stake or the deal, didn't even hesitate to say Yes to his big brother.

I think that implies that Sam really didn't wanna die if there was a way. Dean had been and has been Sam's Stone No.1. Whenever Sam feels down the only thing he got to do is to hold on Dean. Big brother will take care of it.

Poor Sam thinking that he was being tricked because he looked surprised when Dean morphed to Ezekiel
Kaj,

I think you are right about Sam being quick to listen to Dean because he didn't really want to die. I also think Sam was touched by Dean's words in the church and the fact that he was willing to reinforce those sentiments is a big part of Sam's blind trust. At that point, he didn't need a plan from Dean. He was ready to try anything. It is sad that he wasn't given all the information. But if I was Dean, I would have done the same thing.
sofia
# sofia 2013-10-10 08:24
Quote:
well well well, Dean never learns right?

riddle me this- Who's the Angel & Devil in this?

oh wait, Bobby is the Devil????? ok

SMDH
That's the problem, isn't it? There was no clear angel and devil in that scenario. They each had a point.
sofia
# sofia 2013-10-10 08:26
Quote:
Quote:
Cass seems to trust him which is a good sign.
Actually Cas vouched for the angel Ezekiel. Cas wasn't there to check out if this is Ezekiel or just another angel (who Dean might not trust i.e. Lucifer, Michael, not so dead Raphael, not so dead Gabriel, angel named as being one of Lucifer's cohorts during the war on heaven) using Ezekiel's name. I used to remind my daughter anyone can pretend to be anything on the Internet, and Lord knows Sam and Dean have presented ID on hundreds of names that aren't their own, so I'm not trusting Ezekiel so much right now.

In The Road So Far we saw both Mrs Tran and Naomi. I hope that means there is some chance for one or both of them to come back. Mrs. Tran died off screen and we never saw Naomi's wings, so it's possible. I would at least like Mrs Tran back so Kevin hasn't lost everything.
Percysowner,

Fair enough! There is a definite chance that Ezekiel is not Ezekiel. I'm just more concerned that whoever he is, he doesn't plan on leaving empty handed.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2013-10-10 08:36
Hi Sofia, I thought it was a really strong season opener, it bodes well for the rest of the season. The Road so Far montage was probably one of my favourites, and although I'm not a huge fan of George Thorogood, the song worked really well with the montage.

As for Sam being mad at Dean if and or when he finds out about being possessed by an angel pretty much against his will, yeah I'm pretty sure he's going to be po'd big time. Now, I really hope that we don't get the brothers on the outs with each other again though. Been there, done that. They finally got to a really good place with each other at the end of season 8, what with that beautiful speech Dean told Sam in the church. Now, that being said, I think it will be interesting to see if Ezekiel honours his promise to Dean to leave willingly when Sam is cure. Because, you know, angels have never manipulated the Winchesters before! :-*

I'm so happy the show is back along with the reviewers. :-)
E
# E 2013-10-10 08:41
Nice review! I think that Dean's plan is going to come back to bite him in the ass BIG TIME. I am so happy he did what he did of course, but it can't end well for him. First Sam will be mad and then Ezekiel will want to collect on his "favor" which I am sure will be something awful. I think Dean is going to end up paying... big time. My prediction is the first half of the season will be about Sam and the secret and the second half will entail repercussions of the favor Dean will need to fulfill for Ezekiel. Maybe Dean himself will have to become a host; I would imagine fallen angels from all over would LOVE to get their hands on Michael's vessel.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-10 08:49
Blame Dean, if you will, but as Death said, it was Sam's decision. Sam could have said he needed to know the plan first before he said yes but he didn't. He could have rejected the idea of any plan at all and said he was ready to die and was going with Death period. Sam chose to live and Dean chose the only option he felt he had left to keep Sam alive long enough to heal

I'm not even sure that was truly Dean in the cabin at the end. Death didn't call him by name and he morphed into Ezekiel pretty quickly.

I, personally, am not a fan of Sam being possessed. My main hope for this season was a normal Sam without even the demon blood. That would have been something they hadn't done before, but alas that wasn't to be. So onward and upward. What's done is done.
E
# E 2013-10-10 09:24
Quoting Amyh, #6
"I thinbk Sam will be pissed simply because information as taken away from him...his free will was taken aaway from him. If Dean has simply laid out all the information and offered a solution I think Sam would have given INFORMED consent."

But Sam's consent COULDN'T be informed, he was in a COMA and unreachable to Dean for consult, I think that was the whole point. Yes, Sam hates it when decisions are made on his behalf without his consent, it goes to the heart of how his life has been manipulated since day one, but Angels were falling down around Dean's ears, they were warded into a single hospital room with the world falling apart around them and Sam was literally slipping away as Dean tried to figure out what to do. There simply was NO WAY for Dean to reach Sam and explain what was going on, which is why he used Ezekiel. Time was of the essence at that point, and if Dean himself could have gone into Sam's coma state to explain things to him and offer the solution of Angel possession, I think he would have, but the whole point of the deal Dean made with Ezekiel was because Dean COULDN'T go and explain to Sam himself. Coma!Sam was looking for a way out, a plan, but he couldn't seem to come up with anything himself so for him the next best thing was to go ahead and give in to Death. Dean HAD a plan, maybe a flawed plan and probably a plan Sam might not have liked all that much, but it was a plan, but he had no way to get to Sam to explain nor enough time to give any explanation justice, so he used Ezekiel. And I don't feel that Dean came to this decision lightly, he really seemed to agonize over it. It was 'do or die' literally and Dean choose to "do" as he always does. I don't blame him for that, and I don't feel that his rationale for choosing as he did was suspect or suspicious either. He can't function without Sam... period, Amen. I think Sam will be angry for a time, and I really think he'll be more angry about the mind wipe than the angel possession, but he ALWAYS gives Dean the benefit of the doubt, and he will see that Dean did what he had to do under terrible and dire circumstances. Sam has always wanted, deep down, to live... he said so in season 8, so I think Dean did the right think ultimately, I just wonder how much each one of them will have to suffer for it right or not?
E
# E 2013-10-10 09:36
Quoting Prix68 #17
"I'm not even sure that was truly Dean in the cabin at the end. Death didn't call him by name and he morphed into Ezekiel pretty quickly."

I agree with you Prix68, I don't think that that was Dean at all. There has been a lot of commentary already on this point of the episode; was that Dean doing the talking and then morphing into Ezekiel at the moment of possession or was it all Ezekiel? My opinion is that it was all Ezekiel; if Dean could have gone into Sam's coma state to explain things to him up front he would have... I think that he couldn't which is why it was Ezekiel using the most broad and meaningful language he could to secure Sam's consent for possession quickly. It was pretty clear that Dean was considering how much Sam would NOT like to have this kind of decision made for him, and how much he would NOT like to be possessed again but he had no way to reach Sam to explain things to him and not time hash things out. I think that this was the whole point of the deal. I think Dean has learned enough over the years to know that he should in ideal circumstances talk these kinds of things out with Sam, but there was no way to do so. Also, if you watch the end scene again you'll notice that Dean seemed like his plan was to tell Sam about what he'd done right away...but then found out that Sam rejecting the idea of possession could cause the angel to be ejected from his body resulting in Sam AND Ezekiel's deaths which led to Dean's secondary decision to keep things a secret for now until Sam was out of danger. Ah, poor Dean. He's really in the soup now isn't he?
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2013-10-10 09:58
Quote:
Nice review! I think that Dean's plan is going to come back to bite him in the ass BIG TIME. I am so happy he did what he did of course, but it can't end well for him. First Sam will be mad and then Ezekiel will want to collect on his "favor" which I am sure will be something awful. I think Dean is going to end up paying... big time. My prediction is the first half of the season will be about Sam and the secret and the second half will entail repercussions of the favor Dean will need to fulfill for Ezekiel. Maybe Dean himself will have to become a host; I would imagine fallen angels from all over would LOVE to get their hands on Michael's vessel.
I keep thinking now is the favor to use Sam's body to heal him up and Ezekiel or is Dean still oweing Ezekiel the favor. Because think about it who better to lead a fight to kick metatron out of heaven then Dean and if Ezekiel can go inside Dean and use him since he seems to respect Dean and Cass's cause then Dean is natural born leader and best to find a way to defeat metatron and get the angels back up to heaven. So smart move is to get out of Sam and let Ezekiel take over Deans I would love to see Jensen handle being two people. And I would like to join in discussion of is what Dean do with lying to Sam right. I like someone else read somewhere am curious when we left the church Sam was all gong ho to live then its like at the hospital now he can't give a damn and wants to die. I mean Dean tells him what he wants to hear and they are going to do this together and then Sam just gives up. WTH??? Really you want to die when the world is in chaos and let your brother try to defeat angels, abaddon and demons NICE SAM. I mean come on and Sam never would listen to dean he was all set since he himself had no plan because basically the one inside himself Dean had no plan but real Dean was doing what he could. So of course if Sam's Dean has no plan then hey give up. So we can talk about the trickery and how ticked Sam is going to be and Dean knows it you can tell by how Dean cannot hide stuff for long because guilt gets written on his face so easily and he hates to lie especially to Sam. So the truth will come out eventually and to me I mean real Dean was fighting for Sam unfortunately Sam was not fighting for Sam. Sam just gave up and its like talk about wanting to disappoint Dean fact he wanted to die after saying all that stuff in the church forgive me if not on Sam's side right now. I was glad whatever Dean projected into Sam's head knew what to say to him to get back into the game and want to fight. And this is problem with Sam's character he gives up when going gets tough and he wants to know how come he keeps disappointing Dean ta da moves like wanting to die without putting up a good fight. I mean he took on the trials wanting to close hell and so Dean and him could live a normal happy life. But I am always curious how far Sam would go if that was Dean in that condition. Would he do the same thing that dean would; curious if Angels would come hunting him down to find out where cass was. Angels have to know Dean and Cass are close but if tables turned would Sam do the same thing to save Dean?? Sorry one place I can ask those questions that I have been pondering since show has aired.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-10-10 10:27
I'm excited to see what they do with this story. I think the level of Sam's anger or pain will come from the result. If Ezekiel is truely what he says he is and does what he said he would then Sam will forgive easily. But if Ezekiel is not the good angel and wants to keep Sam as his own, which results in a fight or worse, then Sam could be truely hurt ( physically or emotionally) and may hold on to that pain. I can't wait to find out what happens!
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-10 10:49
E #19 - My feelings too. Thanks for expanding on that view.
Ale
# Ale 2013-10-10 10:59
I think I understand Death now. He said it was Sam's decision to die or not. Not what reapers usually say, is it? They usually say to dying people they have no choice - either you accept and move on, or become a ghost, but you will not go back to your body.

But not with the Winchesters. With the amount of knownledge and connections they have, the only way for them to die and stay dead is if they choose to be. Natural order doesn't work with them. The only way for them to stay dead is to be granted a special request from Death himself.

Or if Sam, Dean and Cas die at the same time and have their memories wipped out for good. MAYBE, then, they will stay dead.

No, wait, memory wipe didn't work that well with Sam. At least the wall, made by Death himself, didn't work. So, no, that may not guarantee a permenantly dead Winchester. And another angel may need them for something else...

So, no, they have to choose, be sure of the choice and really convince your brother that that is what you want. And maybe you will be dead and stay dead. Unless a random angel decides they have another agenda.

How can Death be so sure He can arrange for a Winchester to stay dead? Can he kill a soul? He said it was not possible! Are we going to have an answer to all this?!!!

It's clear I didn't understand at all. My brain shut down right now. Can't think anymore.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-10 12:32
#23Ale- Sam wasn't actually dead yet, just dying, so I guess technically speaking if he could still be cured or healed, if he chose to keep on fighting he could live. Then there is also the possibility that like Bobby and Dean, Death was in Sam's head and not really Death himself. And down we go into the rabbit hole that is SPN.

Hell no we're never going to get answers from the PTB! As Dean said to Cas in the finale, "What show have you been watching?" Lol
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-10-10 13:54
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Nice review! I think that Dean's plan is going to come back to bite him in the ass BIG TIME. I am so happy he did what he did of course, but it can't end well for him. First Sam will be mad and then Ezekiel will want to collect on his "favor" which I am sure will be something awful. I think Dean is going to end up paying... big time. My prediction is the first half of the season will be about Sam and the secret and the second half will entail repercussions of the favor Dean will need to fulfill for Ezekiel. Maybe Dean himself will have to become a host; I would imagine fallen angels from all over would LOVE to get their hands on Michael's vessel.
I keep thinking now is the favor to use Sam's body to heal him up and Ezekiel or is Dean still oweing Ezekiel the favor. Because think about it who better to lead a fight to kick metatron out of heaven then Dean and if Ezekiel can go inside Dean and use him since he seems to respect Dean and Cass's cause then Dean is natural born leader and best to find a way to defeat metatron and get the angels back up to heaven. So smart move is to get out of Sam and let Ezekiel take over Deans I would love to see Jensen handle being two people. And I would like to join in discussion of is what Dean do with lying to Sam right. I like someone else read somewhere am curious when we left the church Sam was all gong ho to live then its like at the hospital now he can't give a damn and wants to die. I mean Dean tells him what he wants to hear and they are going to do this together and then Sam just gives up. WTH??? Really you want to die when the world is in chaos and let your brother try to defeat angels, abaddon and demons NICE SAM. I mean come on and Sam never would listen to dean he was all set since he himself had no plan because basically the one inside himself Dean had no plan but real Dean was doing what he could. So of course if Sam's Dean has no plan then hey give up. So we can talk about the trickery and how ticked Sam is going to be and Dean knows it you can tell by how Dean cannot hide stuff for long because guilt gets written on his face so easily and he hates to lie especially to Sam. So the truth will come out eventually and to me I mean real Dean was fighting for Sam unfortunately Sam was not fighting for Sam. Sam just gave up and its like talk about wanting to disappoint Dean fact he wanted to die after saying all that stuff in the church forgive me if not on Sam's side right now. I was glad whatever Dean projected into Sam's head knew what to say to him to get back into the game and want to fight. And this is problem with Sam's character he gives up when going gets tough and he wants to know how come he keeps disappointing Dean ta da moves like wanting to die without putting up a good fight. I mean he took on the trials wanting to close hell and so Dean and him could live a normal happy life. But I am always curious how far Sam would go if that was Dean in that condition. Would he do the same thing that dean would; curious if Angels would come hunting him down to find out where cass was. Angels have to know Dean and Cass are close but if tables turned would Sam do the same thing to save Dean?? Sorry one place I can ask those questions that I have been pondering since show has aired.
I keep hearing this Sam was not willing to fight for Dean ? . Sam's vital organs were gone effectively he wasnt laying there with a concussion so even if he had fought in the way it seems demanded exactly what were people expecting that Sam's organs would magically start repairing themselves that by some miracle Sam would overcome the terrible damage .

Is that what Dean expected ? .

And is this what it is really about Dean that it is viewed Sam did not fight for Dean despite the state he was in and because despite the violation towards Sam that Dean is so desperate to do what it takes
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-10 15:19
Suebsg9 - of course Sam was fighting to survive. That was the Dean in his head. The part that wanted to live. He just needed a plan. Sam would definitely do whatever he could to save Dean and has.

Sharon - just curious where you are hearing Sam was not willing to fight for Dean except the one comment from Suebsg9?
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2013-10-10 16:02
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Suebsg9 - of course Sam was fighting to survive. That was the Dean in his head. The part that wanted to live. He just needed a plan. Sam would definitely do whatever he could to save Dean and has.

Sharon - just curious where you are hearing Sam was not willing to fight for Dean except the one comment from Suebsg9?
When Dean or what was our Dean showed up he fought but when the Dean in Sam's head was telling him to fight to stay alive long enough for him to think of a way to keep him alive Sam then gave up that is point I am making. Not the dean that showed up when he finally agreed to hear Dean the real or Ezekiel dean had to say then he fought off death and wanted to live. See I get confused when talking SamDean and DeanDean or EzekielDean. And the whole violating thing is so confusing to me I mean ezekiel just needed sam to say yes and repeat it and he was inside Sam I get that and Dean tricked him but I am wondering now do we think that is favor or do we think Sam gets cured and Ezekiel is cured does that mean if he is done riding Sam he can jump into Dean if he agrees? Because Ezekiel would have to figure that Dean would plan to get the angels back to heaven and want to take care of metatron.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-10 16:53
Why would Ezekiel need to get out of Sam. Sam has proven that he can handle a very powerful angel. There is no need to posses Dean. He already has Sam.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-10 17:01
just finished watching it again a second ago and from what sam said to dean at the end, it's very clear to me that his conscious self as well as his unconscious self truly wanted to live. dean just told sam "i knew you'd pull through. i meant what i said in that church sam, you're capable of anything". sam's response..."goo d, because we have work to do". seems to me that sam is happy to be alive and anxious to get to work.

what we saw in sam's head, was sam on an unconscious level preparing himself for death. dean was the "fight". bobby was the "surrender". in the end, sam chose for himself. he could have opted to go with death if he truly wanted to. sam did have the final say in this matter....he chose to live. one can argue that he chose to live because he was tricked, and i can argue and say that he always wanted to live and was looking for that one ray of hope to give him that will to fight. different eyes and all.

i did notice that dean morphed into ezekiel but that doesn't disprove my belief that dean was there psychically. i feel that there is no way for ezekiel to know what was said in the church. he wouldn't know about bringing cronuts to appease death, he wouldn't know to say, there aint no me if there aint no you. those were all dean's words from dean's heart.one might pose that zeke can guess as to what a brother would say to ensure he doesn't give up, yes that's true....but how would zeke know about death's affinity for junk food. i get the feeling death doesn't socialize much with anyone. that is something only dean would know. so i have to say that i firmly believe that dean was a projection into sam's head. a projection that vanished once sam gave his consent & we saw ezekiel.

sam spent the episode coming to terms with the fact that he might die. in the end he found peace in it. he accepted it, but that doesn't mean he truly wanted it.

because if it's as i believe, that dean represented the fight in sam, then sam finding faith in dean and choosing to live is what he really wanted all along as he could just as easily have said at the end, "no dean" and gone with death.

if it's as some of you believe, that sam was ready to die, that he got rid of fight dean and was ready to make way for the great harvelles in the sky, then the appearance of dean in any form you care to believe he came in wouldn't have made a difference. dean couldn't trick sam if sam truly wanted to let go. if that were the case, as i mentioned, sam wouldve told dean no and simply have gone with death.

sam when given the choice, when told there was a way , chose to fight, he chose to live. nobody put a gun to sam's head. he has free will. he could've went with death with or without a plan if he wanted to, but apparently, sam didn't really want to.

i kind of think that even if ezekiel didn't wipe sam's memory of the hospital, there's no reason to believe he wouldve remembered anything when he woke from his coma. when dean woke from his coma, he didn't remember anything at all. he had no memory of tessa. the only reason he knew tessa at all was because she kissed him in dtah. the only memory sam would've had if he had memory of the hospital would be waking up and seeing dean by his side. i think the reason dean was open to mind sweeping the hospital visit was because he would have to explain to sam how he miraculously healed, cuz i'm sure the dr. would've been baffled.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-10 17:02
ezekiel made it quite clear to dean that if sam rejects me, he will eject me especially in my weakened state. "especially" that word is very significant. it means that whether ezekiel was at 50% power or full throttle power, if sam rejected him, he would be ejected. it's just that it would be alot easier to eject zeke now because he's so weak. i really don't believe there is any chance of a permanent possession. i'm not in the camp that ezekiel is going to bite the hand that's feeding him. i think ezekiel has bigger fish (metatron) to deal with. he'll need both winchesters help...he won't screw the boys. that just doesn't make sense. i think the first half of the season will have sam/ezekiel healing and the second half of the season will have ezekiel using both sam and dean to help get the angels back to heaven.

i kind of have my own little theory on why hael's vessel was rejecting her. i'm going to stick to it until proven wrong. i mean it makes sense to me. my feeling is that these angels are falling to earth and need a vessel to ultimately survive here. so my guess is that some of these angels are not asking, they're just doing a demon move and possessing people without their consent. i think that's what the girl angel did. her vessel was rejecting her because her vessel never gave consent. that's just what i'm rolling with for now.

i was thinking about the comment about it not being sam's time. firstly i think it was dean who was saying it. but death seemed to not disagree. i would imagine that death would also know that, that wasn't full bodied dean, that was projection dean which would mean that death did know that an angel was the method of transportation. my guess is that death, who is quite partial to the natural order, would agree that the winchesters are not quite done yet. that if sam wanted to go, death would be proud to escort him himself, but if as sam chose, to live, on then i'm sure death would agree that sam and dean have much to make right before it is their true time. i'd like to think that when the day comes that both winchesters give up that fight and find peace when they are done, death will escort both winchesters.... .
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2013-10-10 17:04
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Why would Ezekiel need to get out of Sam. Sam has proven that he can handle a very powerful angel. There is no need to posses Dean. He already has Sam.
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Why would Ezekiel need to get out of Sam. Sam has proven that he can handle a very powerful angel. There is no need to posses Dean. He already has Sam.
When Sam housed Lucifer how much demon blood did he drink? When sam is well is he going to be able to house an angel? Angels sound like they can burn through those who are not chosen and last i checked granted they needed Deans approval to ride him but Dean didn't need demon blood in him so wondering Sam is cured will Ezekiel want to ride dean because of the fact guessing Dean would probobly do it to get ezekiel out of sam. I am just tossing ideas but remember lucifer burned through anyone riding him and they were drinking a ton of demon blood to do it. And how pure is Sam??? Sam thought the trials were purifying his blood but he never finished trials so is his blood still pure???
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-10 17:13
Reading the comments, I think, as I always do, that our show NEVER makes things easy or crystal clear. It makes us think, analyze (sometimes overly so), disagree and drives us cuckoo sometimes. Gotta love this show. So many shows lay it all out there, boringly so. :-)

Thanks Sofia, and welcome back. This one was great. Too many think thoughts, I'll need a few rewatches. I am still confused as to what exactly happened in the scene with Death. Dean or Zeke/Dean or Zeke alone. How did it work? I am going to believe it was Dean's words no matter how they were delivered. And the "yes" by Sam was the opening for Zeke to make his move. I am thinking for it to work properly that Sam would have to be aware of what he was agreeing to. So maybe zeke got in through the back door but it is only a visit instead of outright control/possess ion. I honestly don't know. The actual mechanics of it all are not clear.

There are those that are offended that Dean took away free-will from Sam. Yet again, made a decision for Sam instead of consulting him. In this case I feel that Dean was very uncomfortable with this. I could see his struggle. Suddenly Sam was moments from being lost to him and he just reacted as he always does, save Sam, whatever the ramifications. Sam was world weary in mind and basically beaten to death in body and maybe just wanted to move on. As I have said before, Sam is a fighter at his core and I think that given time to heal he might feel completely different about 'moving on'. People who are beaten down by illness sometimes want to give up and then someone offers their love and strength to get them through it. That's kinda how I choose to view it, instead of Dean imposing his will over Sam. It was forced upon Dean to make a split-second decision. In view of the past it does weigh heavy on Dean and he knows there will be ramifications. This wasn't a case of Dean bullying Sam to do what he wanted against his will, IMO.

"angelic pacemaker"- I like that.
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-10 17:20
:lol: I just realized how it sounded when I said Zeke got in through the back door. Yeesh, gotta watch the wording!
st50
# st50 2013-10-10 17:29
Hi all.
I haven't read all the comments here, so forgive me if I'm repeating or misinterpreting something.

#27 - suebsg9. My feeling is that Sam was not giving up. He was not choosing to leave Dean. He did not want to die, but he has a brain-dead, burnt-organ body. What was the plan to fix him? The machines might keep his body going, but to what end? The boys have already gone down the faith-healer/mi raculous cure route, and wouldn't be keen on that again. So I believe that comaSam, always the thinker/planner , was looking for HOW to fight. (like when the 'Bobby' side talked about punching at the air - how was he supposed to fight back from a dead body?). With no answer, what was his option.... his reaper was waiting. Sam'd know all too well what happens to those who dodge their reapers. With his fighting side (Dean) having no answers, I fully understand Sam's decision to go with Death.

@23 Ale - I saw it as Death acting simply as Sam's reaper. Death let Sam choose to go with him or to stay behind. The same choice all reapers give to the dead/dying they visit. Death respected Sam, and so came to collect him personally. I don't think he treated Sam differently. The rules still applied to Sam.

What's amazing to me is that Sam TRUSTED Dean with whatever plan he had, and chose not to go with his Reaper afterall. For all he knew, Sam would become a ghost! Sam's incredible trust in Dean is what allowed the angel possession.
st50
# st50 2013-10-10 17:38
Oh, and yes, I believe that was Dean in the cabin.
Ezekiel had his hand on Dean, too, and told him to close his eyes. Why? So that he could see the scene in Sam's head? I think so.

Dean-in-the-cabin sure didn't have Ezekiel's speech patterns or mannerisms. (not like Ezekiel-Sam did at the end). I think an injured angel operating at very low power wouldn't spend too much energy on perfecting speech patterns. But that may be just me projecting my wishes that it was Dean that Sam gave his consent to, and through empowering Dean to make his decisions - to the angel possession.

ETA: Technically, I don't think Dean took away Sam's free will. Sam freely chose to trust whatever way Dean could find to save him. He may not agree with the plan Dean ultimately found, but he freely consented to do whatever Dean asked him to.

That is NOT taking away someone's free will. That is someone consenting to be led by the one they trust. That is empowerment, not manipulation.

ETA (again): I viewed it more like Sam gave Dean his Power of Attorney. He may not like the outcome, but Sam allowed Dean to consent to treatment for him.

Different strokes, though. I can understand how it upset lots of people.
E
# E 2013-10-10 18:10
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Nice review! I think that Dean's plan is going to come back to bite him in the ass BIG TIME. I am so happy he did what he did of course, but it can't end well for him. First Sam will be mad and then Ezekiel will want to collect on his "favor" which I am sure will be something awful. I think Dean is going to end up paying... big time. My prediction is the first half of the season will be about Sam and the secret and the second half will entail repercussions of the favor Dean will need to fulfill for Ezekiel. Maybe Dean himself will have to become a host; I would imagine fallen angels from all over would LOVE to get their hands on Michael's vessel.
I keep thinking now is the favor to use Sam's body to heal him up and Ezekiel or is Dean still oweing Ezekiel the favor. Because think about it who better to lead a fight to kick metatron out of heaven then Dean and if Ezekiel can go inside Dean and use him since he seems to respect Dean and Cass's cause then Dean is natural born leader and best to find a way to defeat metatron and get the angels back up to heaven. So smart move is to get out of Sam and let Ezekiel take over Deans I would love to see Jensen handle being two people. And I would like to join in discussion of is what Dean do with lying to Sam right. I like someone else read somewhere am curious when we left the church Sam was all gong ho to live then its like at the hospital now he can't give a damn and wants to die. I mean Dean tells him what he wants to hear and they are going to do this together and then Sam just gives up. WTH??? Really you want to die when the world is in chaos and let your brother try to defeat angels, abaddon and demons NICE SAM. I mean come on and Sam never would listen to dean he was all set since he himself had no plan because basically the one inside himself Dean had no plan but real Dean was doing what he could. So of course if Sam's Dean has no plan then hey give up. So we can talk about the trickery and how ticked Sam is going to be and Dean knows it you can tell by how Dean cannot hide stuff for long because guilt gets written on his face so easily and he hates to lie especially to Sam. So the truth will come out eventually and to me I mean real Dean was fighting for Sam unfortunately Sam was not fighting for Sam. Sam just gave up and its like talk about wanting to disappoint Dean fact he wanted to die after saying all that stuff in the church forgive me if not on Sam's side right now. I was glad whatever Dean projected into Sam's head knew what to say to him to get back into the game and want to fight. And this is problem with Sam's character he gives up when going gets tough and he wants to know how come he keeps disappointing Dean ta da moves like wanting to die without putting up a good fight. I mean he took on the trials wanting to close hell and so Dean and him could live a normal happy life. But I am always curious how far Sam would go if that was Dean in that condition. Would he do the same thing that dean would; curious if Angels would come hunting him down to find out where cass was. Angels have to know Dean and Cass are close but if tables turned would Sam do the same thing to save Dean?? Sorry one place I can ask those questions that I have been pondering since show has aired.
suebsg9, with all due respect, I am not sure at all why you referenced my quote in order to launch your attack against Sam; I never said one thing about Sam being a "quitter" or a "disappointment " or any of the things that you have said in your post, I was discussing Dean and what I felt were his reasons for doing what he did, and that he acted in good faith under terrible circumstances. As far as Sam is concerned, I completely and totally disagree with your assessment of Sam's character and of the way in which you viewed Sam's reactions in the episode. Some fans will take anything Sam does and turn it into a negative, including bashing him while he's in a coma apparently. I don't feel that he was giving up, he was making sure that he couldn't be used as a tool for evil any more by choosing to have Death make sure he couldn't come back from the dead to be used to hurt anyone ever again. Since he couldn't up with a way to miraculously heal himself from his coma, this seemed like the next best thing to do and that, IMHO, is heroic and an incredible sacrifice. He's trying to make the best of a bad situation, as is Dean. Basically, you are criticizing Sam for not going along with Dean's plan to save him while he was in a COMA and completely ignorant of Dean's attempts to save him. I'm sorry but I do not share your views, at all.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-10 19:12
suebsg9 Since the treatments were working on Crowley I would have to assume that Sam's blood was purified. There is no reason to believe that his blood is still not purified just because he stopped. Both brothers are chosen vessels of arch angels. There is no reason that Sam couldn't be the vessel of an ordinary angel as well as Dean. But I do wonder if that might be the real choice that Dean will have to make. Either become Ezekiel's vessel or let him continue to inhabit Sam. I think we can all guess what his decision will be.
Sam, imho was trying to make sure that Dean would not suffer anymore because of him. When he told Death to make sure he couldn't come back I believe he was making that choice to spare Dean.
Manstrad
# Manstrad 2013-10-10 19:25
Season 9 is finally here!!! and yes, I loved the premiere! I really miss the good acting of the guys, really!! I have to say that not all the current popular TV shows have good actors in their ensemble cast, we are lucky to have the J's and Misha in one show.
That scene in the laundry mat, wow! it gave me goosebumps, not only for the meaning but for the delivery of it. Misha, you did it!
Now, about Sam's reaction to Dean's decision, I guess its going to be a mature one. We have to remember they are now in good terms, after the church speech Sam got the validation of Dean;s felling towards him, besides, after all the you didn't look for me in purgatory thing, Sam really, really knows Dean is going to do whatever it takes to save him. Of course it's not going to be, "my big brother is always right thing", but, I think at this point in their lives, it is not going to be so dramatic as before, they are men now, (men of letters), they are more experienced and more knowledgeable. I'm confident that this is not going to be a re-run of past battles between the guys.
The funny scene for me was when Ezekiel told Dean he was there to help him and then fainted.... Dean's face was priceless!!
I'm so glad hellatus is over!!
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2013-10-10 20:01
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Nice review! I think that Dean's plan is going to come back to bite him in the ass BIG TIME. I am so happy he did what he did of course, but it can't end well for him. First Sam will be mad and then Ezekiel will want to collect on his "favor" which I am sure will be something awful. I think Dean is going to end up paying... big time. My prediction is the first half of the season will be about Sam and the secret and the second half will entail repercussions of the favor Dean will need to fulfill for Ezekiel. Maybe Dean himself will have to become a host; I would imagine fallen angels from all over would LOVE to get their hands on Michael's vessel.
I keep thinking now is the favor to use Sam's body to heal him up and Ezekiel or is Dean still oweing Ezekiel the favor. Because think about it who better

suebsg9, with all due respect, I am not sure at all why you referenced my quote in order to launch your attack against Sam; I never said one thing about Sam being a "quitter" or a "disappointment" or any of the things that you have said in your post, I was discussing Dean and what I felt were his reasons for doing what he did, and that he acted in good faith under terrible circumstances. As far as Sam is concerned, I completely and totally disagree with your assessment of Sam's character and of the way in which you viewed Sam's reactions in the episode. Some fans will take anything Sam does and turn it into a negative, including bashing him while he's in a coma apparently. I don't feel that he was giving up, he was making sure that he couldn't be used as a tool for evil any more by choosing to have Death make sure he couldn't come back from the dead to be used to hurt anyone ever again. Since he couldn't up with a way to miraculously heal himself from his coma, this seemed like the next best thing to do and that, IMHO, is heroic and an incredible sacrifice. He's trying to make the best of a bad situation, as is Dean. Basically, you are criticizing Sam for not going along with Dean's plan to save him while he was in a COMA and completely ignorant of Dean's attempts to save him. I'm sorry but I do not share your views, at all.
I first like to apologize if I did quote wrong I think saw something and in my mind ran with it so sorry. And I think like others have done I may have different opinion should I watch one more time I am still going off first viewing and was not trying to bash Sam at all I will give another watch and hopefully I will see something's different.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-10 20:02
E, the reason I believe it was a psychic projection of dean and not Zeke is because it couldn't be Zeke cuz he can't enter Sam without his consent. Zeke had to send dean in .he can't go in in the form of dean...if he could then why would he have to, he'd already be in Sam. He couldn't trick his way in. Sams in a coma. The only way for Zeke to make contact with Sam is in his head. Well last I checked, sams head is part of his body. That makes it off limits to angels. Zeke needed to convince dean so he sent him in. I believe he had to send him on the second time as well. He couldn't get in without consent. There was no trickery. Dean went in and told Sam he had a plan and that was the truth. That was enough for Sam. When dean asked if that was a yes...then Zeke was allowed to enter Sam so it makes sense that the projection of dean would morph into zekes vessel and then angel light. I think sams anger will be at dean for keeping what he did from him for so long.....just my pov of course.
SoCal
# SoCal 2013-10-10 20:15
When sam was in the house with Death and Dean appeared, Dean asked Sam if he wanted to live, since "there ain't no me if there ain't no you." Sam says yes and Dean dissolves into Ezekial. That's how the angel could possess Sam. Dean and Ezekial came up with a plan to trick him into saying it.

At least, that's MHO.
E
# E 2013-10-10 21:16
suebsg9,
That's alright, I know that this show makes people a little emotional at times, and I am very, very protective of Sam as a character because he often gets such a bad wrap in the fandom. Sometimes it's justified, and sometimes not, but in this episode I don't think he did anything wrong, he wasn't even conscious! I hope that you enjoy your second viewing! I've watched it twice already, and I don't usually watch an episode more than once.
E
# E 2013-10-10 21:29
Hi nappi815, (#40).
I'm still not sure; Dean couldn't enter the dream state on his own, that's true, but it also seemed as though he was only allowed to look, not to participate and that only an angel (or the dead) could get to Sam in his own head because he was crossing the veil as they say. It wasn't clear as to who it was doing the talking, and I am wondering now if it was intended to be unclear and will end up being a big plot point in how Sam deals with the truth or if this was just a random vagueness that will never see any kind of resolution (mysterious man outside Sam's house in Kermit, TX???)

I just can't shake the idea that if Dean really could communicate with Sam in his coma then he would have laid the whole situation out to him, angel possession and all and would have had no need to trick him into accepting Ezekiel. But if Dean was blocked off from Sam, then he would have had to tell Ezekiel what to say and have him do it disguised as Dean, because Sam would never have said 'yes' to Ezekiel. We've seen angels take on the shape of other people before (Lucifer), so that's already established canon. Yet, that really did sound like Dean and he was saying all kinds of things that only Dean could know; unless of course Ezekiel was channeling Dean from the hospital room then he would know some of Dean's thoughts and experiences and be able to use them to manipulate Sam. UGH! I am so confused now, but I am not sure its worth worrying about, you know?
suebsg9
# suebsg9 2013-10-10 22:04
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suebsg9,
That's alright, I know that this show makes people a little emotional at times, and I am very, very protective of Sam as a character because he often gets such a bad wrap in the fandom. Sometimes it's justified, and sometimes not, but in this episode I don't think he did anything wrong, he wasn't even conscious! I hope that you enjoy your second viewing! I've watched it twice already, and I don't usually watch an episode more than once.
Understanding protecting a character you like as you can tell I will defend Dean and like I said probably your quote was wrong one to go on when its like I just kept thinking of the whole car conversation and then the woods and stuff I mean it was an eps where there was a lot to take in and you probably need to watch a few times to take in what is going on and hey like I said understand. And thanks for understand I like to discuss and like I said my protective side to Dean yes he did something that will come bite him in the a** but it will be interesting to watch how it plays out in the next eps. I am excited.
kaj
# kaj 2013-10-11 02:20
Another thing that I notice too :

Dean : It's not his time
Death : That's for Sam to decide

If the Death in Sam's head is really Death then I think Death, being the know it all for all cosmic mysteries, knows that he will not reap Sam this time. He will know that Dean somehow will find a way and somehow will success to change Sam's mind. Death knows that the Winchester tale is not end, yet.

Because looking at past grim reaper, even Bobby's reaper, they never give their mark a choice. When it's their time, they have to go. But here Death says "It's for Sam to decide."

So, what? The Winchester will die if and only if they decide they are ready and really want to die. Probably together. Maybe that's the reward for saving the world so many times. They get to choose when to die.

Heeeee.... just a thought. :-D
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-10-11 07:52
@20

Allow me to try and address some issues you raised.

1) So you believe that when Sam is healed, Ezekiel will want to switch bodies between him and Dean? Why would Sam or Dean or even Ezekiel himself allow that?

2) Sam at the time was stuck in a coma with zero medical hope of coming out of it. Therefore he knew that the only way out of his coma was via the Winchester tried and tested (and disastrous) methods; a deal, a sacrifice or something that involves the supernatural, and causes pain or loss to someone else. Sam, knowing those things never worked out well, did not want that to happen. That is why he elicited the promise from Death that this time, when he dies, he stays dead. That’s not giving up, that’s fighting for what you see as the better alternative.

3) The same logic applies to the Sam who you believed wanted to die and let his brother deal with the angels, Abbadon and demons alone. Once again, Sam was in a coma. As long as he was in that coma the only way out was via supernatural intervention (not good). He could be kept alive by machines (also not good because then he could be used as a tool against Dean and/or Castiel or alternatively, Dean would stay at his bedside while the angels, Abbadon and demons were wrecking havoc outside).

4) Yes Dean was doing what he could. However, his ‘what he could’ was the one thing Sam would never want, and Dean knew this. And why the automatic assumption that it was Sam giving up? It could also be Sam doing what he believed had to be done, something he has always done. Sam did have a plan, to follow the natural order, something both Sam and Dean have defied for a long time and always with disastrous results.

5) Re the secret, spoilers Now perhaps the lies don't matter because, as you said, 'the truth will come out eventually'. Oh, where does that logic be when Sam is the one lying??

6) In relation to how he ‘keeps disappointing Dean‘, I’m not overly pushed about that. Sam is his own man, and it’s highly unfair to judge him by the standards that someone else sets for him. (And these are standards that not even Dean can keep.) Add to that, as long as the standard of behaviour and/or morals expected from Sam keep changing then Sam will ‘keep disappointing Dean’, regardless of what he does.

7) When did Sam give up? Was it when he went to college, or when he spent a year trying to save Dean from this deal, or when he tried to avenge Dean in season 4? Was it when he was determined to fix his own mistakes in season 5 and the mistakes of Soulless Sam in season 6? Or when he didn’t go running straight to a demon or making a deal when he thought Dean died after season 7? There’s a difference between ‘giving up’ and doing what you believe is the right thing. (I really have no idea why some fans are so quick to jump to the 'Sam is giving up' first chance they get!)

8 ) If the positions were reversed, and it was Dean in the coma and he wanted to go and it was dangerous for him to stay, I think Sam would want to do what he believed was best for Dean and the world at large, not what was best for himself.
castiel cat
# castiel cat 2013-10-11 09:51
Quote:
Why would Ezekiel need to get out of Sam. Sam has proven that he can handle a very powerful angel. There is no need to posses Dean. He already has Sam.
The Hael sidestory showed us that angels like having strong vessels. Dean is Michael's otv and the Michael sword, which makes him the strongest vessel around. I am sure that the favor will involve Dean.

Also remember in Reading is Fundamental. Hester was dismissive of Sam In a prejudicial way because he was Lucifer's vessel, an abomination, and a demon lover.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-11 10:35
#47 castile cat Glad to see you here again. My later point was that both brothers were chosen vessels for arch angels. Both were vessels for powerful angels. Either one could house an ordinary angel. I do think that this situation is going to be the real decision that Dean is going to have to make. Either Ezekiel stays in Sam or Dean agrees to allow him to inhabit Dean. After all he promised that he would owe that angel a favor. And we all know what Dean's decision will be if that is the case. All just speculation but fun to think about. I am always happily surprised by the writers twists and turns.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-11 11:26
#46 - Tim the Enchanter - #8 I'm sorry but Sam did make a choice when he said "yes" to Dean's plan. Sam didn't say "Well, that depends on the plan or I only agree if it's within these perimeters." He put himself in Dean's hands knowing full well how far Dean is willing to go to save him. The brothers made a choice for Sam to live. Sorry, I don't see this as Dean being selfish or making this decision lightly. Maybe you have a problem with Sam putting his life in Dean's hands but apparently Sam didn't, at least not yet. I'm sure Dean knew he was going to get untold grief about this decision from Sam but he made the best choice he felt he could under impossible conditions. I don't know what Sam's decision would have been if the roles were reversed and neither do you but I don't see all of Sam's decisions as saintly and Dean's as selfish. Just two brothers doing the best they can in difficult situations.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-11 12:48
#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed. Neither of them has shown that they can willingly let the other die if they can do anything about it. Sam and Dean are similar in their selfishness in that regard, I think.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-11 15:31
It just occurred to me. Does anyone think that the reason Dean went to the Impala to talk to Crowley was to make a demon deal? Now that would have really driven a wedge between the guys.
nuke333
# nuke333 2013-10-11 18:05
When Cass was doing his laundry, how many of you were thinking " he's not balancing the load"
dashnjo
# dashnjo 2013-10-12 00:57
Quote:
When Cass was doing his laundry, how many of you were thinking " he's not balancing the load"
I was to busy trying to pull my jaw off the floor before my husband gave me an eye roll to notice at the time but he was sticking lights and darks together as well. However, since he could magically clean and repair his clothes before he gets a pass. I don't see Sam and Dean ever having a reason before to show him how to properly wash clothes ...
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-12 01:12
Quote:
When Cass was doing his laundry, how many of you were thinking " he's not balancing the load"
Quote:
Quote:
When Cass was doing his laundry, how many of you were thinking " he's not balancing the load"
I was to busy trying to pull my jaw off the floor before my husband gave me an eye roll to notice at the time but he was sticking lights and darks together as well. However, since he could magically clean and repair his clothes before he gets a pass. I don't see Sam and Dean ever having a reason before to show him how to properly wash clothes ...
Heh heh, I did notice both of those things. My family thinks I am a fanatic about sorting clothes.

I am better at laundry than quoting :roll:
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-10-12 01:33
@49
Wow Prix68, you really have attributed an awful lot of words and sentiments to me that I neither said nor implied!

Did Sam make a choice? Yes, he did. He put himself in Dean’s hands because he trusted Dean to not only have a plan (which he said he did), but to do the right thing. However, this has nothing to do with Sam and how he should have known ‘full well how far Dean will go’, Sam could not have known that Dean would do this because it’s the one thing that Dean knew that Sam would not want, and that was confirmed for him in 9.01 (And I must admit, Prix68, I find it strange that you’re using the ‘Sam should have known’ argument here when in another discussion you’re okay with the fact that Dean didn’t know about the ensuing Sam’s memory wipe!)

I never said that Dean made that decision lightly. I do, however, believe it was selfish (and don’t worry, in another comment I argued that Sam was selfish for being okay with wanting to die as it left Dean alone) because, as with the demon deal in season 2, I do not believe that it is what Sam would ever have wanted, but it was what Dean wanted. In both of these incidents, how can you argue that the decision was in Sam’s best interests? Okay, he’s alive, back to a world that is full of death and destruction and pain and loss, back to a world where he will surely, at some stage, lose his brother again. He’s back to a world where he’s slap bang in the middle of another angelic war, except now he’s also hosting an angel, who is a soldier so he is back to a world where he will be targeted again ( and if he dies, will the same decision be made for him then again?) But hey, he’s be alive, and Dean feels guilty about what he did (but should he feel guilty because it was Sam’s ‘choice’, right?) so I guess that’s all that matters!

Contrary to what you say, I also have no problem with Sam putting his life in Dean’s hands. I have no problem with the ‘choice’ that was made. I do have a problem with the continued justification of lies. I do have a problem with the lack of informed consent. I do have a problem with being duped into doing things, especially something like this. I do have a problem with lack of agency and I do have a problem with the whole handwaving off of what Dean did by saying ‘He didn’t have a choice’ and ‘He had to do it’ and ‘He was running out of time so he couldn’t explain to Sam’. Dean did have a choice, he didn’t have to do it and Death wasn’t dragging Sam out of there by the collar so he did have time. This is what Dean chose to do.

But you know, if Sam does decide to give Dean ‘untold grief’ about it then evidently Dean can just say ‘Hey, it was your choice’, and absolve himself from all responsibility!

In relation to the roles being reversed, of course I don’t know what would happen. However, there was a question asked, so I answered it. I do not believe that, in the same situation, Sam would make the same choice as Dean. Last season showed us that Sam did not do the expected thing and go running to a demon or an angel etc to make a deal to get Dean back. In 9.01 we got another possible reason why, because he knows the devastation such deals bring. So if Sam knew that Dean was going to a place where he would be safe and at peace and with friends and it was what he wanted, then why would he make a deal? That does not mean that Sam is more ‘saintly’, that does not mean that Sam loves Dean less, that just means that they are different people who, as a result of their experiences and their beliefs, react to things differently.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-10-12 01:59
@47
Castiel’s Cat, my confusion in relation to Ezekiel as a vessel for Dean is as follows. At the moment Ezekiel has a vessel, and if he is on the up and up and keeps his word, he will make both himself and Sam strong and healthy again. Why would he then transfer from one vessel that he has made strong, that he literally knows inside and out and that he had ample opportunity to twist to suit his needs (if that is indeed the case) to a different vessel who is equally as strong but is completely strange to him, in order to take on Metatron, who is in heaven, where Ezekiel doesn’t even need a vessel??

So while I’m sure that Dean will be involved in the getting the angels back to heaven, I just don’t think it will be in an Ezekiel vessel capacity.

Quote:
Also remember in Reading is Fundamental. Hester was dismissive of Sam In a prejudicial way because he was Lucifer's vessel, an abomination, and a demon lover.
That’s the cursed thing about prejudice, isn't it? It’s such a narrow-minded concept that it prevents people (angels) from seeing what’s actually there and who people actually are.

It’s a pity Hester did not bother to try to get to know Sam or think about why he did what he did because if she had then she might have realised that Sam was more than just the blood that ran through his veins, more than what other people said about him. She'd have realised that the man she casually dismissed as the ‘Lucifer vessel’, the ‘abomination’, the ‘demon lover’ was actually a good man, with noble and worthy intentions.

Perhaps the time the angels will spend on earth will teach them how to open their minds a small bit?

However, Ezekiel is evidently not as prejudiced as Hester because he has no problem at all with possessing Sam.
kaj
# kaj 2013-10-12 02:09
Quote:
It just occurred to me. Does anyone think that the reason Dean went to the Impala to talk to Crowley was to make a demon deal? Now that would have really driven a wedge between the guys.
You're right!!! At first I thought that Dean wanted to ask him something but then again it won't be surprising if Dean wanted to make a deal with him.

Well, making a deal with Angels is not a better option too because Angels knows how to manipulate people too. (Naomi, Zachariah, Michael, to name a few)
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-12 08:46
#55 Tim
While I personally don't like the whole Sam being possessed story line, I stand by my belief that Dean made the best choice he could in the circumstances. Sam could have asked for more details before he said yes or he could have just said no, so I do believe he did make a choice, to put the decision in Dean's hands. Sam wasn't under the same time constraint as Dean because he was controlling when he went with Death. Dean didn't have time to question Ezekiel about all the ramifications of the possession, he was under a time constraint on his side and didn't foresee the mind wipe. Dean feels guilty about everything but feeling guilty doesn't mean he is guilty.

I don't think Dean was being selfish and I hope he does remind Sam that he had a part in the choice. I don't see Sam dying as giving up or selfish. I do think that, in the end, Sam chose to live, to go with whatever plan Dean had, no questions asked. So I do see this as a shared decision/respon sibility.

If you don't have a problem with Sam putting his life in Dean's hands without question (and I didn't see Sam questioning what the plan was) then you can't then have a problem later with the decision that Dean makes or in my opinion you shouldn't.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-10-12 09:35
Quote:
#55 Tim
While I personally don't like the whole Sam being possessed story line, I stand by my belief that Dean made the best choice he could in the circumstances. Sam could have asked for more details before he said yes or he could have just said no, so I do believe he did make a choice, to put the decision in Dean's hands. Sam wasn't under the same time constraint as Dean because he was controlling when he went with Death. Dean didn't have time to question Ezekiel about all the ramifications of the possession, he was under a time constraint on his side and didn't foresee the mind wipe. .
The ‘best choice he could in those circumstances’ is not always the best choice. Past seasons have taught us that. Sam didn’t see that making the choice to try and stop Lilith from breaking the last seal would actually raise Lucifer. Dean didn’t see that making the deal in season 2 would lead to the first seal being broken. Amy didn’t see that trying to save her son’s life would lead to her own death (and quite probably her son’s death). Mary didn’t see that her choice to save John’s life would set the ball rolling on the Apocalypse. Castiel didn’t see that trying to bring fee will to the angels led to the Leviathans walking the earth. Those were all the best choices those characters felt they could have made under the circumstances, but it didn’t stop those choices from evidently being the wrong choices, right intentions bedamned.

Quote:
Dean feels guilty about everything but feeling guilty doesn't mean he is guilty.
Well, I’d kinda hope that Dean would feel guilty about the things that he has done to feel guilty about. But you’re certainly right, Dean feeling guilty does not always mean that he is guilty because Dean’s feelings are not fact. So logically, Dean feeling betrayed etc by Sam does not necessarily mean that Sam betrayed him etc, he just felt that he did.

Quote:
I don't think Dean was being selfish and I hope he does remind Sam that he had a part in the choice. I don't see Sam dying as giving up or selfish. I do think that, in the end, Sam chose to live, to go with whatever plan Dean had, no questions asked. So I do see this as a shared decision/responsibility.
You mean, for example, like when Sam reminded Dean that he broke the first seal and there's no last without a first so the Apocalypse was actually a shared responsibility? Oh wait, Sam didn't do that.

Prix68. I would certainly hope that Dean has more dignity and honour and decency than to do that. ‘Yes, I tricked you and made a deal that means you’re now living your worst nightmare again, the one thing I know you ever again wanted, being possessed by an angel, an angel that I don’t know so I’ve no idea what he’ll end up doing but you know what, Sam, it’s your fault too.’ That’s disturbing, and for me, if Dean does that, it will be one of the lowest things he’ll have ever done. If Dean's only way of defending his actions is by putting responsibility, even part responsibility, onto someone else, then his actions can't be defended. That’s like lying to a friend and blaming them for believing your lies. What will come next, beating someone up for their own good??

Quote:
If you don't have a problem with Sam putting his life in Dean's hands without question (and I didn't see Sam questioning what the plan was) then you can't then have a problem later with the decision that Dean makes or in my opinion you shouldn't.
Really? So, hypothetical situation, if Dean’s plan was to raise Lucifer and have him possess Sam so that Sam would remain alive, I (or Sam) shouldn’t have a problem with that? Would you have a problem with that?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-10-12 10:33
Quote:
Really? So, hypothetical situation, if Dean’s plan was to raise Lucifer and have him possess Sam so that Sam would remain alive, I (or Sam) shouldn’t have a problem with that? Would you have a problem with that?
I'll give the more likely scenario. When no angels showed up Dean said he had the King of Hell in his trunk and went to Crowley. I doubt he went there to check if Crowley needed anything; food, water, potty break. The only reason I could see Dean going to Crowley was for a deal, or demon blood. Would that be okay? Considering the last deal led to the Apocalypse, Sam would probably never dream that Dean would ever think of making another demon deal, but there he was about to do something with Crowley and milk and cookies probably wasn't it.
st50
# st50 2013-10-12 10:52
#60 -
I think Crowley would more likely have asked for his own release as return for attempting to heal Sam. (And who knows what state Crowley is in, and whether that would've even been possible).
That might actually have been the better deal for Dean to make. I can't see Sam being AS angry about that choice.
Oh well. It's all hypothetical what-ifs.
I'm still excited to see how all this is going to play out.
:-)
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-12 11:31
Just a quick thought, Dean didn't have to make a deal! Crowley is weakened and is under their control. It seems to me that he was going to force Crowley to give over any information that might help Sam. Nothing wrong with that is there? Dean was in the position of power there not Crowley.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-12 12:00
#59 Tim - Well, let's flip this around if you object to Dean's choice here. You personally (Tim) have to make the choice and the only way to save Sam is having him be possessed without his full knowledge or be forever dead. What's your decision? You can't change any of the circumstances, you have to choose just like Dean.
If you choose for Sam to die and stay dead, then fine, discussion over, I can accept that.

I think what Dean should say to Sam is you put the decision for a plan to save you in my hands and I made the best decision I could at the time and you're here to be pissed because I did.

And I think Dean's actions can be defended and I am defending them and I don't think it's the same as lying to a friend and blaming them. That analogy doesn't work for me.

As far as the Lucifer thing, I already stated that I have a problem with the whole Sam being possessed story line. I personally don't care for it. That being said, given the story I have, I feel Dean made the best choice possible.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-10-12 12:45
@63
What can I say, Prix68, if I were Dean, and the circumstances were the same, and this were not a television show*, I would have chosen forever dead.

Yes, I'm sure that will make me a horrible, uncaring, selfish wretch of a person who never really loved my brother yadda yadda and so be it. However,I would know that my brother would be at peace, he would no longer know suffering, he would no longer know fear or have to face death (again). He'd no longer have to live with the fear of whether or not today would be the day that he'd see me (his brother) die or be hurt again, so selfish though that decision may be, I'd be happy (for want of a better word) with my choice. The only grief and loss and pain would be mine but that would be my cross to bear, not his. And I'd take solace in the fact that I would see him again some day. (Grammatically that sounds terrible. Sorry about that.)

I'd also take solace in the fact that I'd never have to look at my brother suffering, or dying or possessed or now 'evil' or what ever it was the life decided to sling at him this time and say 'At least you're here to be suffering/ possessed/evil' etc. I'm sure my brother would appreciate that as well.

(*However, this is a television show so I'd have to make the same choice Dean did. Doesn't mean that what he did shouldn't be discussed.)

So I’m guessing the discussion is over??
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-12 12:51
I don't agree with the idea that Dean didn't feel any pressure to make a moments notice decision. Sam's earthly body was on life support and failing right then. The warning signals were sounding. Sam was dying right then. It makes no difference how long Sam chatted with Death (or Sam's hallucination of Death) or Dean (or Zeke). The point is, after he died the only thing left to discuss would be to go or stay and be a spirit. Sam had absolutely no control over what happened to his body in the hospital and it was in cardiac arrest apparently.

I have no idea how this will turn, out it may be disastrous. I don't think it was necessarily a good decision but I still contend Dean was desperate and made a choice that haunts him. His decision to keep it from Sam is also dubious but if Sam knew he might eject Ezekiel thus insuring his death. Dean couldn't let that happen, even if it might be the right decision. Letting his brother die won't ever be an option for Dean. I just cannot be mad at Dean for his decision. He wasn't trying to take away Sam's free will, he was just trying to save his brothers life. For himself partly and for Sam who could have another chance at that light at the end of the tunnel!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-12 12:56
Did Dean see/hear Sam tell Death that he did not want anyone (Dean) making any deals to bring him back? If so then Sam made it pretty clear he didn't want any deals made to save his life. If Dean saw/heard that then Dean went against Sam's express wishes. So Dean's best decision in this situation was to honor Sam's wishes. Now of course Sam had to be saved or there would be no show but I think the fall out from Dean's decision is going to be more catastrophic than even Dean is imagining. I hope that Sam doesn't forgive so easily this time. He has been violated since he was a tiny infant. The trials had purified him. For the fist time in his life he was going to know what it felt like to be a human being. I think that Sam is going to be more than pissed because you know he is somehow going to remember what happened in the hospital. I just hope that Dean's decision doesn't turn into Sam is being ungrateful trope. I would like to see Sam get truly angry this time. We know he will forgive Dean in the end but this is an almost unforgivable violation.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-12 13:06
#64 Tim- and that's exactly how I would feel in real life as well. I would grieve but I would let go. But this is a TV show and there ain't no Dean, if there ain't no Sam. So we are in agreement and can move on to discuss other aspects of the show.

Leah d - my feelings exactly.
eilf
# eilf 2013-10-12 13:10
I am ok-ish with Dean's decision he could have done a better job of it but it's Dean, it's what he does and he meant well (which has never been an allowable argument for any other character on the show, but ...). I just hope that we all remember when (not if, WHEN) all this blows up in Sam's face that SAM had made the decision to put himself out of the possibility of doing any more harm either voluntarily or involuntarily.
If Ezekiel turns out to be Lucifer, or corrupts Sam, or is actually a demon, or or or ... this was not what Sam would have chosen.

Personally I feel there is a fairly good chance that Ezekiel will turn out to be an ally - I think he is possibly going to be one of the anchor characters for the spin-off.
amyh
# amyh 2013-10-12 13:12
Quote:
I don't agree with the idea that Dean didn't feel any pressure to make a moments notice decision. Sam's earthly body was on life support and failing right then. The warning signals were sounding. Sam was dying right then. It makes no difference how long Sam chatted with Death (or Sam's hallucination of Death) or Dean (or Zeke). The point is, after he died the only thing left to discuss would be to go or stay and be a spirit. Sam had absolutely no control over what happened to his body in the hospital and it was in cardiac arrest apparently.

I have no idea how this will turn, out it may be disastrous. I don't think it was necessarily a good decision but I still contend Dean was desperate and made a choice that haunts him. His decision to keep it from Sam is also dubious but if Sam knew he might eject Ezekiel thus insuring his death. Dean couldn't let that happen, even if it might be the right decision. Letting his brother die won't ever be an option for Dean. I just cannot be mad at Dean for his decision. He wasn't trying to take away Sam's free will, he was just trying to save his brothers life. For himself partly and for Sam who could have another chance at that light at the end of the tunnel!
Leah...what exactly do you think 'the light at the end of the tunnel' is if not death?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-12 13:13
Thinking about it I guess Sam would never get to know what is like to be human if he was dead so Dean made the right choice.
amyh
# amyh 2013-10-12 13:32
Quote:
Did Dean see/hear Sam tell Death that he did not want anyone (Dean) making any deals to bring him back? If so then Sam made it pretty clear he didn't want any deals made to save his life. If Dean saw/heard that then Dean went against Sam's express wishes. So Dean's best decision in this situation was to honor Sam's wishes. Now of course Sam had to be saved or there would be no show but I think the fall out from Dean's decision is going to be more catastrophic than even Dean is imagining. I hope that Sam doesn't forgive so easily this time. He has been violated since he was a tiny infant. The trials had purified him. For the fist time in his life he was going to know what it felt like to be a human being. I think that Sam is going to be more than pissed because you know he is somehow going to remember what happened in the hospital. I just hope that Dean's decision doesn't turn into Sam is being ungrateful trope. I would like to see Sam get truly angry this time. We know he will forgive Dean in the end but this is an almost unforgivable violation.
Cheryle...more then anything Sam didn't want anyone (Dean or innocent people) getting hurt or killed as a result of someone bringing him back. Weather Zeke is good or bad.....people are going to be hurt/killed because of this possession. (Look at the girl possessed by Hael....the grief councilor and the farmer....Hale (and the girl she possessed) was killed by Cas. The farmer and grief councilor Dean sent to whereever with the Angel banishing.

So....if Zeke kills any angels thus possessed innocent people while in Sams body...if there are any colateral damage (which there alwasy are) Sam is going to feel responsible.

I dont think for a moment Sam will be angry at Dean for the possession. Sam is smart, I think he's on his way to figuring it out since somoen can only be possessed if they consent. He'll figure out he gave consent while unconcious. He will be upset that Dean lied about it and then wiped his mind.

Sam will be upset and blame himself for all the death and choas that was resulted in his possession. He will regret giving consent...and wish he HAD died. And no matter what.....ration al or not it will put a strain on the brothers relationship.

Everytime they are together, every time they save each other....innoce nt people...the ones they swore to protect... die.

When is enough enough? At some point Sam (and Dean) should ask themselves when do the heroes become the villians?
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-10-12 13:33
I dont believe Sam would want to live at any price and certainly not by being possessed . That decision was taken on his behalf by Dean and Ezekiel all they needed was a yes.

There is so much that can go wrong with this and so much depends on whether Ezekiel is what he say he is and his intentions are true.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-12 14:20
Amyh - I believe the light at the end of the tunnel was a normal life with no hunting. Sam and Dean have killed angels and demons repeatedly without too much guilt over who was in the original body for a lot of seasons.
I'm not sure how Sam being possessed makes that worse.

Sharon - as I have stated before, Sam agreed to whatever plan Dean had. He didn't ask for the plan first. He chose to live.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-10-12 14:33
Quote:
Amyh - I believe the light at the end of the tunnel was a normal life with no hunting. Sam and Dean have killed angels and demons repeatedly without too much guilt over who was in the original body for a lot of seasons.
I'm not sure how Sam being possessed makes that worse.

Sharon - as I have stated before, Sam agreed to whatever plan Dean had. He didn't ask for the plan first. He chose to live.
No he trusted the brother he thought was in front of him. And a brother that had just stated with the emotional punch 'there aint no me if there aint no you' .

He chose Dean not the possession. I have stated my view equally as much , the onus is not on Sam here . I understand why Dean did it and why in a panicked state he made a decision but I cannot pretend I liked what he did.
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-12 15:07
Amyh@69- LOL when Sam originally said that ,he was NOT referring to death! He was trying to convince Dean of a possible better future for both of them. Yes I am well aware of the other meaning. I think when Sam is healthy and strong again he might still want that better future. When he isn't Battered in body and soul.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-12 15:41
Amyh I think that Sam is going to be majorly pissed at Dean for what he did. That is why Dean tricked Sam into the possession. He knew that Sam would never consent to it. He even told Ezekiel those very same words. So yes Sam is going to be very angry and he has every right to be. Especially if he remembers all that went on in the hospital. Dean's only hope to save Sam was to trick him and then lie about it. As Dean loves to say "if it was so wonderful why did you lie about it." I just hope that Dean is prepared for what is going to come and not try to turn the argument against Sam. This coming from someone who absolutely adores Dean and I don't blame him one bit for his decision. I just want to see Dean acknowledge to Sam that he did something against Sam's wishes. He isn't going to apologize for what he did but he will take the justifiable anger from Sam and not try make Sam feel guilty for even questioning his decision.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-12 17:10
Sharon - Dean saying there ain't no me, if there ain't no you wasn't a lie and I stand by my feelings that Sam chose to put the decision for how he could survive in Dean's hands without stipulations or questions. Sam chose Dean's plan not just Dean.

Do I like the idea of Sam being possessed? No, but the choices were Sam dead or Sam possessed. I want Sam to be alive.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-12 18:53
wow, the debate going back and forth makes for quite the nighttime reading. holy moly. it's all been very interesting, so interesting in fact that i did a bit of research. what i found out was people who awaken from comas don't remember what happens inside their own head. comatose survivors cannot recall what happens from a deep sleep state.

if show sticks to actual medical fact and sticks to it's own canon(dean remembered nothing that happened to him in his coma) then sam would not have remembered anything while in his coma anyway.

i think what we saw was meant for us, the fans, not the characters. it makes for great debate and much interest and that's exactly what carver wants. he's quite devilish in that respect. (see all of s8). :P

the reason for the mindswipe was so that dean didn't have to explain to sam how he managed to miraculously heal, given that the dr would have most likely told him that he was basically a goner and it's a miracle that he's awake. so dean agreed to the mindswipe so he never had to answer sam's questions. he could just assume, as dean told him, that he was simply unconscious for a day.

sam's anger at dean will most likely come from dean keeping the secret of how he healed sam and not from the save itself.

as for ezekiel. well, and this is speculation on my part of course, i think he's on the up and up. if i were to put up money, i'd say that zeke wants to go home. he's as cas says, a good soldier and as zeke said, an angel who believes in cas and their mission. there's going to be angel wars on earth and there needs to be a general for the allied side. i think ezekiel is it. as i've stated, carver made it pretty clear that an angel cannot stay in a vessel if it's rejected, it will be ejected. i don't see any kind of hostile body takeover from zeke. it's canon that it's what makes angels different from demons.

i think ezekiel, once he's healed and has healed sam will go back in his original vessel. tahmoh pinikett. i think he will play a major role in the second half of the season.

i think dean has created the mytharc this year and his part in it. by making the deal with zeke, by owing him a debt, zeke will want to use dean to help him get the angels back to heaven. he will need both boys help. when zeke said to dean that healing sam would be mutually beneficial, i think it went deeper than just healing them both. i think he was also referring to sam's sense of obligation to help zeke as well. i'm not saying he's obligated. but i know sam. he'll feel he owes zeke for saving him. he's alive because of him and sam won't deny that. it's not going to be guilt or anger or any negative emotion, it's just the way sam is...not unlike his brother. so zeke knows as a good soldier would how to make important allies and nobody is better to have in your corner than sam and dean winchester.

a fun theory i have, well i think i've posted here already so if so i apologize, i'm all over these boards. if i'm zeke and i want to get back into heaven i'd need a trojan horse right. what better vessel to use than cas. cas is from heaven, so he knows the battlefield. cas is human so metatron wouldn't see him as a threat. but cas is getting a love interest. he's adjusting to human life and possibly enjoying it. why would cas want to give that up? perhaps, as part of dean's debt to zeke, dean has to get cas to agree to help. not that it would be all he had to do....that could be the trick. dean's debt to zeke might not be fulfilled until they've succeeded. this is a story/mytharc that could go well into next season.
amyh
# amyh 2013-10-12 21:48
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Amyh I think that Sam is going to be majorly pissed at Dean for what he did. That is why Dean tricked Sam into the possession. He knew that Sam would never consent to it. He even told Ezekiel those very same words. So yes Sam is going to be very angry and he has every right to be. Especially if he remembers all that went on in the hospital. Dean's only hope to save Sam was to trick him and then lie about it. As Dean loves to say "if it was so wonderful why did you lie about it." I just hope that Dean is prepared for what is going to come and not try to turn the argument against Sam. This coming from someone who absolutely adores Dean and I don't blame him one bit for his decision. I just want to see Dean acknowledge to Sam that he did something against Sam's wishes. He isn't going to apologize for what he did but he will take the justifiable anger from Sam and not try make Sam feel guilty for even questioning his decision.
Sam has every right to be angry but anger never gets him anywhere with Dean. I'd actually prefer Sam not to even acknowledge it. Especially if someone other then Dean tells Sam. I'd let Dean let the guilt eat him alive until he finally tells Sam. And then Sam tells him yeah, I already know. Then he just goes on doing whatever he was doing.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-10-12 22:21
You know that is exactly the way I handle similar (not possession) situations. I generally let that person twist in the wind.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-10-13 03:57
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Sharon - Dean saying there ain't no me, if there ain't no you wasn't a lie and I stand by my feelings that Sam chose to put the decision for how he could survive in Dean's hands without stipulations or questions. Sam chose Dean's plan not just Dean.

Do I like the idea of Sam being possessed? No, but the choices were Sam dead or Sam possessed. I want Sam to be alive.
I am not going to keep going over this argument. so ok Sam was tricked into saying Yes that is it thats the bottom line , he was tricked . And clearly we have slightly different views on the fine print of what happened which is fair enough.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 12:40
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Blame Dean, if you will, but as Death said, it was Sam's decision. Sam could have said he needed to know the plan first before he said yes but he didn't. He could have rejected the idea of any plan at all and said he was ready to die and was going with Death period. Sam chose to live and Dean chose the only option he felt he had left to keep Sam alive long enough to heal

I'm not even sure that was truly Dean in the cabin at the end. Death didn't call him by name and he morphed into Ezekiel pretty quickly.

I, personally, am not a fan of Sam being possessed. My main hope for this season was a normal Sam without even the demon blood. That would have been something they hadn't done before, but alas that wasn't to be. So onward and upward. What's done is done.
It was Death who said it was Sam's choice not Dean.Dean lied plain and simple.Sam had Death waiting so sorry if he didn't have time to ask for the "plan" He is a considerate guy.That is where the conversation in the church comes in.Whether Sam will be upset and what he will do is to be seen.
Also I think Death was honouring his words of letting sam decide whether to go with him or trust a deception.Every thing was Sam's choice for Death
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 12:46
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Why would Ezekiel need to get out of Sam. Sam has proven that he can handle a very powerful angel. There is no need to posses Dean. He already has Sam.
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Why would Ezekiel need to get out of Sam. Sam has proven that he can handle a very powerful angel. There is no need to posses Dean. He already has Sam.
When Sam housed Lucifer how much demon blood did he drink? When sam is well is he going to be able to house an angel? Angels sound like they can burn through those who are not chosen and last i checked granted they needed Deans approval to ride him but Dean didn't need demon blood in him so wondering Sam is cured will Ezekiel want to ride dean because of the fact guessing Dean would probobly do it to get ezekiel out of sam. I am just tossing ideas but remember lucifer burned through anyone riding him and they were drinking a ton of demon blood to do it. And how pure is Sam??? Sam thought the trials were purifying his blood but he never finished trials so is his blood still pure???
Because Dean was not possessed by an archangel an archangel perverted by his deeds.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 12:52
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Oh, and yes, I believe that was Dean in the cabin.
Ezekiel had his hand on Dean, too, and told him to close his eyes. Why? So that he could see the scene in Sam's head? I think so.

Dean-in-the-cabin sure didn't have Ezekiel's speech patterns or mannerisms. (not like Ezekiel-Sam did at the end). I think an injured angel operating at very low power wouldn't spend too much energy on perfecting speech patterns. But that may be just me projecting my wishes that it was Dean that Sam gave his consent to, and through empowering Dean to make his decisions - to the angel possession.

ETA: Technically, I don't think Dean took away Sam's free will. Sam freely chose to trust whatever way Dean could find to save him. He may not agree with the plan Dean ultimately found, but he freely consented to do whatever Dean asked him to.

That is NOT taking away someone's free will. That is someone consenting to be led by the one they trust. That is empowerment, not manipulation.

ETA (again): I viewed it more like Sam gave Dean his Power of Attorney. He may not like the outcome, but Sam allowed Dean to consent to treatment for him.

Different strokes, though. I can understand how it upset lots of people.
That is false empowerment on the base of a halftruth or a concealment."My brother knows I did not like being possessed he will not go to that" That is trust not blindtrust and I think that is what Sam has.If Sam is okay with possession and Ezekiel turns out to be that superspecial snowflake angel then Okay
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 13:00
I loved the review ( One of my favourites).
And yes I too want to know what happened to metatron.Now that the angels are cast out he has all the souls for himself.I have seen lately that souls can be very important..and I think the souls for something.What do you think?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 13:06
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#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed..
Just a question,Did you watch season 8?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 13:17
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Sharon - Dean saying there ain't no me, if there ain't no you wasn't a lie and I stand by my feelings that Sam chose to put the decision for how he could survive in Dean's hands without stipulations or questions. Sam chose Dean's plan not just Dean.

Do I like the idea of Sam being possessed? No, but the choices were Sam dead or Sam possessed. I want Sam to be alive.
So Dean said if You die I die?It was not a manipulation? Wow just wow.
sofia
# sofia 2013-10-15 13:29
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I loved the review ( One of my favourites).
And yes I too want to know what happened to metatron.Now that the angels are cast out he has all the souls for himself.I have seen lately that souls can be very important..and I think the souls for something.What do you think?
Glad you enjoyed the review! That's an interesting point about the souls. I'm not sure what to think about Metatron. He was an angel so I assumed he'd be cast out of Heaven, but then again he was the one doing the spell in the first place so maybe he found a loop hole? Do you think he's still up there?
st50
# st50 2013-10-15 13:36
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#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed..
Just a question,Did you watch season 8?
As I said in my own post, which you have quoted above, people are going to react differently. It's a contentious issue, and I grant that you are upset about it. That's ok.

BUT there is no call to be nasty here. You disagree. We get it. This was uncalled for, imo, and it's the kind of response that turns us all off from posting our own opinions.
ETA: Same goes for your next post.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 13:41
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#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed..
Just a question,Did you watch season 8?
As I said in my own post, which you have quoted above, people are going to react differently. It's a contentious issue, and I grant that you are upset about it. That's ok.

BUT there is no call to be nasty here. You disagree. We get it. This was uncalled for, imo, and it's the kind of response that turns us all off from posting our own opinions.
ETA: Same goes for your next post.
I am sorry you thought that way.I was not trying to be mean .Sam thought Dean was dead .He did not try to revive him.There was situation which if not the same was similar and the answer was given.
I agree that my replies may sound like that..but when I envisioned myself saying that I was asking that whether the season 8 Sam's decision was not an indicator of where Sam leans
st50
# st50 2013-10-15 13:51
#90 -
anonymousN.
I appreciate you clarifying that. The question you ask in this post is valid.

Personally, I don't think they're the same. In Sam's case in season 8, there was no body. No proof of death (or dying), no one to try to convince to keep fighting....
But yes, I think Sam would've been more open to allowing Dean to die, if he thought it was what Dean wanted.
But what Dean did this season is on par with what he's done when Sam died in season 2, and when Sam's soul was trapped in the cage. (BOY did Soulless Sam protest the return of his soul! We can count that as non-consensual in a way, too.)
At least Dean is being true to character, and I still say Sam not looking in S8 was not. But again, different interpretations are made by different people, and that's what makes the world go 'round.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 13:53
As far as the next post goes I should have gone without Wow wow wow.I agree that was bad.
The poster had told before that Sam had not asked about the plan.Well Sam had
He asked "what do I do?"
Dean/ezekiel asked is that a "yes"
Sam replied "yes"
Dean/ezekiel did not answer Sam's question with deception?yes
I was not interpreting the dialogue It was the dialogue.
Every time the choice is the same whether we want one alive or dead.Sam got grief for wanting Dean Alive and keeping Dean dead.I am not going to go any less hard on Dean.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 13:57
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#90 -
anonymousN.
I appreciate you clarifying that. The question you ask in this post is valid.

Personally, I don't think they're the same. In Sam's case in season 8, there was no body. No proof of death (or dying), no one to try to convince to keep fighting....
But yes, I think Sam would've been more open to allowing Dean to die, if he thought it was what Dean wanted.
But what Dean did this season is on par with what he's done when Sam died in season 2, and when Sam's soul was trapped in the cage. (BOY did Soulless Sam protest the return of his soul! We can count that as non-consensual in a way, too.)
At least Dean is being true to character, and I still say Sam not looking in S8 was not. But again, different interpretations are made by different people, and that's what makes the world go 'round.
But Sam did not do any deal.He was shattered till he hit the dog.
I don't want to be hopeful but I think Sam has learnt letting go.and I am glad for that.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 13:59
I am sorry for my earlier "wow wow wow" Prix68
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-15 15:35
#94 anonymousN - Please, no need to apologize to me for the wows. I see them as you sharing with me how strongly you disagreed with my opinion and that's fine with me. I feel just as strongly about what I said and stand by what I said. Sam said "What do I do?"not what's the plan? There is a difference.

According to Fangasm report on Torcon meet and greet, JA said he was playing it as Ezekiel in the cabin talking to Sam not Dean. Which would mean that Dean wasn't totally in control of the situation either. Just an FYI cause I think Dean would have said pretty much the same things.

I also said that Death said it was Sam's choice so not sure what the disagreement there was.

Bottom line is, I'm good and hope you are too. It's always so ambiguous on SPN we are actually all correct because there is no definitive answer.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 16:22
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#94 anonymousN - Please, no need to apologize to me for the wows. I see them as you sharing with me how strongly you disagreed with my opinion and that's fine with me. I feel just as strongly about what I said and stand by what I said. Sam said "What do I do?"not what's the plan? There is a difference.

According to Fangasm report on Torcon meet and greet, JA said he was playing it as Ezekiel in the cabin talking to Sam not Dean. Which would mean that Dean wasn't totally in control of the situation either. Just an FYI cause I think Dean would have said pretty much the same things.

I also said that Death said it was Sam's choice so not sure what the disagreement there was.

Bottom line is, I'm good and hope you are too. It's always so ambiguous on SPN we are actually all correct because there is no definitive answer.
What was Dean's answer to Sam's question?Did he tell what Sam had to do?
Dean/Ezekiel asked "is it a yes?"
That is not an answer that is deception.
Just before this dialogue Dean was imploring Sam to Stay and the question Dean/Ezekiel asked does not pertain to Sam's question but to the dialogue before as it does not work as answer.
Dean and Ezekiel deceived Sam.
Out of context "what do I do" does not mean What is the plan.When Dean tells sam that there is a plan and reminds sam about his promise and then Sam asks "What do I do?" It means that.Context is very very important
As far as the fangasm report goes I have been spoilerfree and conreport free as the things said there have happened offscreen or are yet to happen.
The thing about Death givng sam his choice ...does not mean Dean was giving sam his choice.Death and dean are two separate entities/creatu res/people.Deat h truly gave sam his choice.He did not intervene with Sam's decision making..whereas dean did.It was not sam's choice but Dean/ezekiel's deception.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-15 17:21
#96 anonymous - I wasn't implying that Death giving Sam the choice was anything like what Dean was doing. If you read it that way I'm sorry. I'm also not saying that Dean wasn't being duplicitous in how he got the yes answer. What I am saying is, Sam knows Dean and he knows how far he will go to save his brother so, I believe Sam wanted to live and chose not to question what Dean's plan was. As you just said yourself," what do I do" does not mean "what's the plan?" Sam could have said "I need to know the plan first." That's where Sam made a choice. I believe Sam chose to put the decision in Dean's hands. I'm not talking right or wrong here for either brother, just how I saw what went down.

Would you have preferred Sam to die and the rest of the season be about Dean getting revenge and grieving his brother? Sam was crashing and Dean was out of time and options. I'm not going to crucify Dean for picking what he thought was the lesser of two evils.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 17:33
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#96 As you just said yourself," what do I do" does not mean "what's the plan?" Sam could have said "I need to know the plan first."
Now you are taking my comment ,cutting it to pieces and twisting its meaning.
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What I am saying is, Sam knows Dean and he knows how far he will go to save his brother so, I believe Sam wanted to live and chose not to question what Dean's plan was.
he questioned and his question whether it was about the plan as I say or whether what he had to do as you say were not answered.Dean not answering Sam's questions may be the norm but that does not mean i or sam cannot criticize it .Quote:
Would you have preferred Sam to die and the rest of the season be about Dean getting revenge and grieving his brother?
If it means Sam getting blamed for dean's deception then yes Sam is better dead.Quote:
Sam was crashing and Dean was out of time and options. I'm not going to crucify Dean for picking what he thought was the lesser of two evils.
A difference of opinion maybe but sam's death was lesser of the two evil.You should not crucify Dean and i am not too .I am just criticizing.
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-15 17:52
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#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed..
Just a question,Did you watch season 8?
# 86 anonymous- Yes I did, as you know. If your question was your way of asking if the situation were the same I do not think it was, Dean disappeared in an explosion of Leviathan goo. As far as Sam knew he was dead! Gone. He didn't have his brother in a hospital bed right next to him dying before his eyes. I think the situation is quite different. I stand by my opinion that Sam would not have said "Oh, well" and walked out of the room. I was glad to see you back but not if you are going to pick fights with me! I would be happy to discuss anything with you otherwise.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-10-15 17:54
We are very far apart so no point in continuing our personal conversation. I am bowing out.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 18:03
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#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed..
Just a question,Did you watch season 8?
# 86 anonymous- Yes I did, as you know. If your question was your way of asking if the situation were the same I do not think it was, Dean disappeared in an explosion of Leviathan goo. As far as Sam knew he was dead! Gone. He didn't have his brother in a hospital bed right next to him dying before his eyes. I think the situation is quite different. I stand by my opinion that Sam would not have said "Oh, well" and walked out of the room. I was glad to see you back but not if you are going to pick fights with me! I would be happy to discuss anything with you otherwise.
So if Sam does not make deal with angel or Demon,He should say "Oh,well" and walk out of the room.Well that is not how it goes.When Dean is in such a state where he has made peace with his death I hope and this is my belief also that Sam will let him go.Then mourn his death while burying him or more appropriately give him a hunter's funeral ,mourn him till he wants to and then get on with his life while not forgetting his brother.Sam has come a long way from faith and I believe he will not regress back to such damaging methods.
I was not picking up a fight but if it feels that i am just say so I will see that my words do not come across as so.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-10-15 18:03
Leah I think we have a much closer parallel in season three. When Sam was trying to find a way to save Dean, they stumbled across Doc Benton, immortality serum and replaceable parts. Sam wanted to try to use that to save Dean and Dean was unalterably opposed. Once Dean said no, Sam didn't try to trick Dean into using Benton's serum, he didn't drug Dean and shoot him up so Dean would live. He didn't sneak some of the serum into his backpack to use on Dean as the time got nearer. He accepted Dean's decision.

I suspect you are going to say, but Dean wasn't dying at that second, BUT Dean has already stated with absolute, positive certainty that Sam would NEVER, EVER want to be possessed and he went against Sam's wishes. So Sam has been very close to the exact spot Dean was in and he honored Dean's wishes. And this case was in some ways more vital. Dean wasn't just going to die, Dean was going to Hell to be tortured. Add this to Sam's deciding to abide by the pact that they not look if the other is dead, and I can draw the inference that Sam wouldn't have done what Dean did.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-15 18:58
Percysowner, admittedly I don't remember that episode in detail but as I recall Sam wasn't being forthcoming with Dean about his plan (no judgment here) and Dean wasn't happy when he found out where Sam was going with this and was appalled about the things Doc Benton had to do to keep his body going. Helping himself to other peoples body parts. The takeaway for me was that Dean would rather go to hell than live on in that horrific manner. And Sam honored that yes, but to me entirely different circumstances. Dean had no problem with a plan that would save him from death/hell/tort ure but to him that was not an option!
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-15 20:02
anonymousN"]Quote:
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#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed..
Just a question,Did you watch season 8?
# 86 anonymous- Yes I did, as you know. If your question was your way of asking if the situation were the same I do not think it was, Dean disappeared in an explosion of Leviathan goo. As far as Sam knew he was dead! Gone. He didn't have his brother in a hospital bed right next to him dying before his eyes. I think the situation is quite different. I stand by my opinion that Sam would not have said "Oh, well" and walked out of the room. I was glad to see you back but not if you are going to pick fights with me! I would be happy to discuss anything with you otherwise.
So if Sam does not make deal with angel or Demon,He should say "Oh,well" and walk out of the room.Well that is not how it goes.When Dean is in such a state where he has made peace with his death I hope and this is my belief also that Sam will let him go.Then mourn his death while burying him or more appropriately give him a hunter's funeral ,mourn him till he wants to and then get on with his life while not forgetting his brother.Sam has come a long way from faith and I believe he will not regress back to such damaging methods.
I was not picking up a fight but if it feels that i am just say so I will see that my words do not come across as so.

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#101 anonymousN, I was not saying he SHOULD do that. Just that I do not think he WOULD do that. I don't know what Sam would do for sure or what his mindframe would be in that instance, or what his current stance on trying to save his brother would be (in a circumstance such as this one). In S8 ,he didn't even know what happened to Dean and was devastated , shaken to his core and likely had a breakdown of sorts. I honestly don't believe Sam was at peace with his decision (S9-1) as much as feeling he had no options and did not want any harm to come from to any attempt to save him. He wasn't dead at this point!! He felt with no "plan" he had no choice. So my opinion is that Sam would not have let his brother die while at his bedside if he could have prevented it and also make him healthy. I further feel that had their positions been reversed, and Dean said let me go, Sam would be very stubborn about accepting that outcome.

I do respect the views of others. However, I will never believe Sam, in this same circumstance, would let his brother die if he could find a way to heal him.
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-15 20:36
three times watching and i've noticed the same thing every time. firstly, sam recognized dean as his brother and not the dean that was in his head. so when confronting the real dean, well he isn't so easy to dismiss as the dean in sam's head. second thing i took notice of was when dean showed up and said he had a plan, sam still seemed confused as to what to do. he kept looking over at death, unsure and befuddled. took notice of that and then proceeded to tell sam to trust him;, dean was getting closer but sam still wasn't sure, and then dean said it, those nine little words that sealed the deal for sam..."there aint no me, if there aint no you"...that's when sam asked 'what do i do" that's when he said yes. it didn't have anything to do with dean having a plan, sam still had doubts when dean said that. it was the begging and pleading from his brother...dean basically begging sam , PLEASE DON'T LEAVE ME. that's what led sam to his decision to live. it wasn't a plan. it was his brother. to me it's really that obvious. sam said it in tmwktm, you know me, i won't leave my brother alone out there...well with dean admitting to sam, that without him he's nothing, is there any doubt that sam would never willingly leave dean alone in this world? there's no doubt from this girl. so the way i see it, the word plan never even had to leave dean's lips. all he had to do was ask sam to stay. it's been that way since the pilot...when dean asked sam to go help him find his dad...sam said it in s2, "dean you're my big brother, there is nothing i wouldn't do for you". sam choosing dean didn't come as a surprise at all, it's exactly what i expected from him.
i don't think it's that black and white either. the love these boys have for ea. other goes so deep. i know some think dean acted selfish, but try to see where dean is coming from. dean isn't just sam's brother. dean has been taking care of sam since he was four years old. he carried sam out that burning house and from that moment on, he's been responsible for him. dean said as much in the benders. dean isn't just sam's brother, he took over the role of mother and father too. dean regards sam as a parent does it's child. anyone who has children knows that the moment they are born, your life is no longer your own, you end up living for them. so for dean, it's not just that his brother is dying, for him, it's also like his child is dying. after all dean is the only one's who's been there for sam as a constant. he took care of him. he basically raised him. and sam's response to dean...what else would it be? sam knows dean has been more than just a brother to him. sam knows that dean took care of him, read to him, made sure he had a christmas, told him the truth when no one else did...basically raised him as he had no mom and hardly a dad. sam respects dean and values him above all, as proven in sacrifice when failing dean was no longer an option for sam, that he'd rather die than do that again. sam no matter how he tries to deny it, will always be the one who's looked to dean to take care of him. like a child would to a mother or father. so sam's willingness to do anything dean asks of him, is in par with a child who would do anything for their mom/dad. they have a complicated, codependency on ea. other that has helped them survive this life, not only life as hunters, but life as brothers without parents, because there was no mom and dad was pretty much absent from their lives. they'll do whatever it takes and that includes, lying, selling souls, jumping in the pit, calling on angels, calling on demons..to keep ea. other alive and safe. i just can't find fault in that.

as for the interview by jc....here is the quote
While these differences and Dean's secret will cause ample complications for the brothers, their bond was seemingly stronger than ever after choosing each other over closing the gates of Hell in the Season 8 finale. So though we may never again see the happy-go-lucky bromance of Supernatural's early seasons, Carver assures the Winchesters' bond is one that can never be broken. "They're brothers and at least in my mind that's something unshakeable ... I feel like no matter what transpires in the present, there's always this common bond of the past," Carver says. "I feel like the moments of joking or joy or togetherness are as ever-present as the moments of secrecy and disdain and distrust. To me it goes hand in hand. Its not quite either or."
so the way i read it, dean may have to deal with the fallout of lying to sam but it looks to me like sam will forgive and they will move forward. there will be no big divide. their bond is unshakeable...l ooks to me like the boys will be ok :lol:
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-15 21:11
Hi Nappi, nice post as usual. If you were referring to my use of the word "plan", I meant that the lack of any clear plan (before DeanZeke) showed up was what nudged Sam into feeling that moving on was the only way. He established the ground rules with Death to insure no one got hurt. But I agree that his love for Dean was what turned the tide. Not a plan.

I have always felt the brothers will be OK. Even last season. :-) Not so sure about the fans! ;-)
nappi815
# nappi815 2013-10-15 21:49
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Hi Nappi, nice post as usual. If you were referring to my use of the word "plan", I meant that the lack of any clear plan (before DeanZeke) showed up was what nudged Sam into feeling that moving on was the only way. He established the ground rules with Death to insure no one got hurt. But I agree that his love for Dean was what turned the tide. Not a plan.

I have always felt the brothers will be OK. Even last season. :-) Not so sure about the fans! ;-)
no sweetie, wasn't referring to you at all. please don't take offense at this in any way, but i wasn't even thinking about your post :D ....

no i was just watching it again last nite on the computer and then in the morning i get all these thoughts in my head, and then as i'm driving home from work i get more thoughts in my head and then i just get the urge to splurge.... :lol: i do apologize if i made you think i was referring to you...

as for the boys...this fan, never worries about that. ;-) tonite's ep is pretty cool by the way...loving crowley, abbadon and even zeke...not for nothing, but he will come in handy... :lol:
leah d
# leah d 2013-10-15 22:24
LOL, thanks nappi!! I wasn't, or could ever be, offended by you! I thought I wasn't being very clear about something I said! :D

I won't see the episode for another hr and a half. So I'd better duck out before I see any spoilers. Glad you liked it! Later nappi!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-10-15 23:14
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#46- Tim, I honestly think Sam would have done the same had the situation been reversed..
Just a question,Did you watch season 8?
# 86 anonymous- Yes I did, as you know. If your question was your way of asking if the situation were the same I do not think it was, Dean disappeared in an explosion of Leviathan goo. As far as Sam knew he was dead! Gone. He didn't have his brother in a hospital bed right next to him dying before his eyes. I think the situation is quite different. I stand by my opinion that Sam would not have said "Oh, well" and walked out of the room. I was glad to see you back but not if you are going to pick fights with me! I would be happy to discuss anything with you otherwise.
So if Sam does not make deal with angel or Demon,He should say "Oh,well" and walk out of the room.Well that is not how it goes.When Dean is in such a state where he has made peace with his death I hope and this is my belief also that Sam will let him go.Then mourn his death while burying him or more appropriately give him a hunter's funeral ,mourn him till he wants to and then get on with his life while not forgetting his brother.Sam has come a long way from faith and I believe he will not regress back to such damaging methods.
I was not picking up a fight but if it feels that i am just say so I will see that my words do not come across as so.
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#101 anonymousN, I was not saying he SHOULD do that. Just that I do not think he WOULD do that. I don't know what Sam would do for sure or what his mindframe would be in that instance, or what his current stance on trying to save his brother would be (in a circumstance such as this one). In S8 ,he didn't even know what happened to Dean and was devastated , shaken to his core and likely had a breakdown of sorts. I honestly don't believe Sam was at peace with his decision (S9-1) as much as feeling he had no options and did not want any harm to come from to any attempt to save him. He wasn't dead at this point!! He felt with no "plan" he had no choice. So my opinion is that Sam would not have let his brother die while at his bedside if he could have prevented it and also make him healthy. I further feel that had their positions been reversed, and Dean said let me go, Sam would be very stubborn about accepting that outcome.

I do respect the views of others. However, I will never believe Sam, in this same circumstance, would let his brother die if he could find a way to heal him.
The opposite of what Sam would not do is not making a deal and that is what I am saying.Again Dean's plan was based on deception and I was calling Dean out on it.To let my brother be possessed by a being who is suspect is worser than letting him die when his organ have failed.Just hope that ezekiel is not ruby..If it turns out like ruby..I am not going to like it even more
And in season 8 he had ways to bring back Dean but he did not .A lack of body is not a reason in "supernatural" to not bring back anyone.So as I have said before Sam had the good judgement to let dead stay dead.Sam has evolved a lot in this aspect.
I honestly believe Sam was at peace with his death.If I see Sam's expressions it was only after Dean said there is no me after no you did something change.
Also in your rely to percysowner You said Dean was not happy about Sam's deception well now I hope Sam is not happy about the deception.It is well and right to tell about maturity but that does not mean and should not mean dean has not deceived and that Sam should not feel bad.You might have not said anything that sam should not feel bad but I am making my position clear.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-10-16 01:23
Ok anonymousN, we think differently. Saying Dean wasn't happy about something back in season 3 was in no way a slight against Sam. I was just recapping the episode as I remembered it and why I thought it was a different situation. I think Sam should and will be angry and he should not feel bad or be blamed about it. That is how I feel about it and that is my position!! I just understand why Dean did it. I have very personal reasons for being sympathetic and I am done defending my position. I have never once in any of my comments said anything against Sam, in this.