Warning!!!!  If you haven't seen the latest episode of "Supernatural" and the preview for next week, do not read this!  There is going to be plot-based speculation and discussion! You've been officially warned!
Okay, so, not a whole ton happened this episode, but I still have a few things to talk about.  So chime in if you have an opinion on any of the following.

The Crowley Situation

So what is up with Crowley?  Can he just burn Sam like that because he owns Sam's soul?  That's kind of strange, and I'm not sure I understand why that's happening.  Of course, it's a very effective tool to use to make Dean fall in line.  And I don't believe for one second that he will give Sam's soul back if they bring him and alpha.  They need to get that written in blood and make it an unbreakable deal, no "Sub-A" clauses, or else he's going to find a way to worm out of it because he always does.  But hostage situation is a very appropriate way of looking at this.  I certainly was still thinking about it as some sort of deal, but we don't know for sure what it is.
Soulless Sam is Not a Better Hunter
Sam and Bobby both Sam is a better hunter now than he was before, but I call shenanigans on that.  If Dean hadn't been there to temper him, Sam would have hauled off two innocent people before finally hitting on the right suspect.  He even admitted to Dean at the end of the episode, crushingly, that he's killed innocent people in the line of duty.  Sam is all shoot first and shoot questions later right now.  And I'm sorry, but that is not a good hunter.  That's a sloppy hunter.  And wow, don't even get me started on the whole good cop/bad cop routine they were running on Lucky tonight.  Sam was pretty cruel to that skinwalker.  And I know he was a murderer and a perv and whatnot, but I was feeling bad for the guy during that interrogation.  It was more like bad cop/worse cop, really.
Is Sam Finally Telling the Truth?
And now we come to the end of the episode and Sam's chat with Dean.  At this point, I honestly don't know if Sam is telling the truth or not.  He's been saying what he thinks people want to hear for months now, and he's been doing it to Dean for weeks, slowly letting out tidbits of truth.  Maybe this was the real truth.  But we, and Dean, have earned the right to be suspicious.  So I'm hoping that he really does want to be the old Sam again.  But the way he phrased it almost seemed like he didn't really want to go back but thought it might be for the best in the long run.  Also, was it not freaky to hear Sam refer to himself in those terms, as the old Sam and the new Sam?  Who else wants to know what he remembered about his old self that made him want to come back?  I'm guessing it has something to do with Dean and all they've been through together, but it would have been nice to hear that.  We get so few glimpses into Sam's head as it is!  At the very least, maybe Sam dropping the act will help Dean separate this Sam from his brother because Dean wants his brother back so badly, and this just isn't him.  Like Dean said, it looks like him and has his memories, but his moral compass is missing.  He doesn't even have a moral sextant right now!  The only thing that's keeping Sam from going off the rails right now is Dean, and I don't know how much longer they can keep going like this before Dean has finally had enough.
A Hard Truth
Alice brought up an excellent point in the CBox after the episode, so I'm going to include it here.  Do you think Dean is going to have to face up to the fact that this could be Sam, that he's not going to get his soul back, that he won't ever be the brother Dean knew?  What is Dean going to do then?  I think he would part ways with him if that happened.  He'd try to stay with him and keep Sam from hurting innocents for as long as he could, but I think it would just be too much in the end to see Sam this way.  Dean would reach his breaking point somehow and would just leave.  Maybe he'd try to go back to Lisa and Ben and make it work.  Or maybe he'd go to Bobby's and hunt from there.  But I just don't think he could stay with Sam indefinitely if he was going to be like this forever.
Okay, so what do you think?  Anybody have any theories?  And how ridiculous (in a good way) does next week's episode look?Faeries?  Hee.  Anything that makes Dean rant in the back of a squad car is good with me!


# Alice 2010-11-12 23:47
I wonder if Dean is being setup for "a having to kill Sam" situation. Sam already told him that he can't lock him up. If Sam's absent conscience results in him hurting innocents, like when he was ready to grab that mother tonight, how far is too far for Dean? Anyone think they're going there? Dean did not seem like he was comfortable at all around Sam. He doesn't know who this person is and it's bothering him.
# percysowner 2010-11-13 00:06
I really do feel that they are setting it up for Dean to kill Sam and be able to walk away feeling good about himself. From what we have been told, Sam is either still in the cage or Crowley has him, which probably means Hell. Sam didn't see Dean for a year after he got out. Since one month on earth means 40 years in Hell, Sam's soul was in in Hell for 480 years at the beginning of the season. It has been a month or two since he got back which puts it at 560 years in Hell. I can't see how Sam isn't a demon by now. So if they get his soul back, all Dean gets is a demon brother and then again he has to kill him.

I am deeply annoyed that the show SEEMS to be moving in the direction of having the viewers want Sam dead and then Dean can go back to Lisa, who made it pretty clear that her main problem was that Dean was too entangled with Sam. I hope the writers have something else up their sleeves, but I am worried about the trajectory of the storyline.
# InkSketch 2010-11-13 01:22
What I want to know is, where is the classic rock? And why is everyone raising an army? Oh, and does anyone else think that the deal that Samuel made to get out of hell w/Sam has something to do with Mary's soul? And, why Sam's soul, not Samuel's?
InkSketch 2nd comment
# InkSketch 2nd comment 2010-11-13 01:31
Oh, in regards to this episode. It was a pretty good one. However, I did feel bad for Lucky. His outcome was tragic, it just sucked so bad.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-11-13 04:43
I’m camped in the ‘deeply unhappy’ side (population, me.) I mean, if I weren’t emotionally invested in the show, I’d be really happy with this episode but I am so.... I’m not.

I had thought Twihard was my lowest point so far. It wasn’t, because while Twihard was one big punch to the face, this episode was like a series of smaller, consistent punches.

Subtlety, thy name is NOT Supernatural. One of the things I disliked about Season 4 & 5 was the constant attempt to manipulate viewers to empathise more towards one brother. I’d hoped, HOPED, they’d be over that by now but apparently not. In fact, this episode was the most overt example I’ve seen in a long time.

Sam’s snark was not funny, it was cruel and demeaning. His desire to kill anything, even Mandy and her son to get what he wants while Dean listens aghast? His willingness to let 150 people die to possibly get his soul back? Even from a newly logical Sam, do those numbers add up?

The manipulation is so evident. The constant talk of family and Deans sideward glances towards Sam. The small digs. Dean forlornly looking at Lisa’s name, thinking about the family he lost and then Sam, the family he’s stuck with, the reason he’s lost Lisa, ringing. That’s one broken family Sam is responsible for. Then the reveal that Sam killed innocent people, more broken families. He’s the reason Mary, Jessica and countless others died, more broken families. Jeez, Sam, a legacy of destroyed families under your belt and you’re not even 30. I must say, you’re some man for one man!

Then by contrast, Dean, who doesn't even seem to believe in family any more, the guy who’s putting aside his own desires and needs for a brother who openly says he doesn’t care about Dean, that he’s just using him to get what he wants. The guy who will put aside what he really wants, his brothers soul, to save strangers?

In one of my first posts ever, I stated that I would have been happy if the show had ended with Season 5 because Sam, at that point, went out with one single tick in the win column. However, that was said with the security of the knowledge that we had season 6 ahead of us, and the hope that that one act of redemption could be followed up by something more consistent ie that Sam being right to jump into the Pit wasn’t just a fluke. Now I’m not so sure. It seems that Sam's had five years of epic wrong, one episode of right, back to another 8 episodes of epic wrong.

Even hunting, something we assumed he was doing right and was now truly good at? Nope, he’s wrong again.

Using the animal metaphor SPN seemed so keen to use today, Sam came back as a stray cat, manipulative and slinky who'll ramble back to you when he needs to be fed, you’re not quite sure he won’t bring you home a birds head and leave it on your pillow but hey, at least you're happy he’s alive.

He goes from that to being a weasel, capable of lying and selling out anything for his own betterment, to being a scorpion, something too risky to trust because it’s in his nature to kill, and now he’s a rabid dog, he has his purpose but ultimately, it would be better for all if he was put down. It might have been a loving dog in the past but dude, the past is past, and what has that dog done for me lately? Put the dog out of its misery. That way, the loving and loyal master can go and get a new dog that will love him in return and the master can still have the bittersweet memories of the old dog before it went bad.

Ardeospina, I’m ticking the ‘Depressed’ box of the poll but I’m adding an addendum to the vote; irredeemable. Sam had a soul when he was a baby and he has been shaded since then, is all that dark going to disappear just because he has his soul back?

Dean has had doubts about Sam for years now and I don’t believe Sam getting his soul back will make a blind bit of difference to that. Let’s face it; it’s hardly going to be ‘Woohoo, Sam has his soul back. Oh hello brother, quick, pull a bitchface so I can be reassured’. It’s going to be another big old heap of worry. And the doubt? They’ll linger. Sam getting his soul back won’t automatically erase the years of doubt. Will Dean ever truly trust Sam again?

Even if he gets his soul back, what unknown damage was done by housing Lucifer, his soul being in hell, drinking the blood, the knowledge of what he's done since he got back? How long before those issues manifest into something? I'd like to think the relationship will go back to normal and I can hope it will but I can’t believe it will.

Dean is not going to leave Sam. He’s not. I'm sure he wants to and he’d be happier if he did. But he won’t leave. Sam is the rock around Dean’s neck now. Whether he’s physically with him or not, Sam is going to be a burden, a reason for Dean to worry and be unhappy. From a writing point of view, every hero needs a cross to bear, Sam is Deans.

Actually, the only thing that Sam has gotten right from the start was wanting to stay away from Dean. Had he managed to, Dean would have had to live with the knowledge that Sam was in hell. Now Dean has the knowledge that Sam is a murderous, soulless cyborg who doesn’t even care about him, he’s working for demons, he might have to kill Sam again, AND Sam’s soul is probably still in hell. For Dean, it’s a lose, lose, lose situation.

Apologies for bringing down the overall positive tone here. I'm generally a glass half full person but when the writers keep drinking from the damn glass....
# Yume 2010-11-13 06:24
first of all, thanks for this wonderful site and for everything you guys are doing here!
I´m new to comment, (if not to read), and pretty much new to the entire show. I´ve only known about it for the last three months and have spent my time both trying to catch up and watching the new season (probably more than I should have, but that seems to be the effect that SPN has on people who connect with it......)
This week´s episode that I´ve just watched (online, I`m from Europe) has left me feeling, first pained and now completely empty.
As others have commented, this has been a downward spiral for some time now and I think it´s nearing a point where Dean may stop caring from hurting too much, simply going numb inside, close to the way he was feeling around Dark Side of the Moon.
So do I think it´s hopeless yet? No, just going deeper, going into new territory.
This show, the brothers´ relationship, among other things, has a very strong Yin/Yang aspect to it, Sam of course being the dark part, and Dean the light. This is not about good or evil, simply about choices made from different perspectives, and their ramifications, dark choices and light choices, leading to different results that can be viewed from different angles and hardly ever labeled "good" or "bad" (take Jus in Bello as a perfect example).
This season´s Sam so far is devoid of all human warmth, he is as cold as he can get. Being cold in itself is not a bad thing, but it lacks balance, and will therefore lead to unbalanced actions (just as being "too warm" will do the same in a different way).
Sam knows it, I think, and I think there is one thing he does "feel" and that´s the lack of a part of him that should be there. I think he does feel that, not as an emotion, maybe more like an instinct that something is not right.
In this poll I voted about not being sure that Sam wants his soul back.
Of course he doesn´t really, he´d have to be able to feel to truly want that. Wishes are the result of unfulfilled needs, and to have needs beyond being clothed and fed, you´d have to be able to feel.
On the other hand he is not as complete as he should be, and I think any being in creation would have an instinct about that, about being "off", and about wanting to set this right. So he does want to be "right" again, in spite of the pain he knows that that will bring.
I think that what he says to Dean at the end is Sam saying yes to being human (similar to the way Dean argues with Cas in Season 5 that he´ll take the pain and the guilt anytime, and to shove his peace up his... or something along that line).
It comes out cold and dispassionately , but that´s Sam´s reality now and doesn´t make it any less true.
As for the question, what will Dean do? What he´s always done, protect Sammy. This soulless Sam does indeed pose an interesting philosophical question: how do you blame a person for acting within their own personal frame of reference? How do you take the moral stand against someone who obviously does not know, or feel, any better?
This is also,and has been for some time now, about Dean (and us, him being our avatar) learning unconditional love, loving a person, Sam, not for what they do but for being who they are, flawed and still perfect the way they are just because they are, dark and light, and doing the best they can.
So this season is taking this aspect very far. Dean is supposed to love and protect and not getting a damn thing in return, no love, no gratitude, no good life. Nothing, except Sam doing the best he can, how little that may be. Dean´s love will have to be enough for the both of them.
So, painful or not, I´m still looking forward to more.

Sorry for being all over the place, I hope at least some of it made any sense to you....
# Shadow 2010-11-13 08:41
Hey Tim The Enchanter, I understand how you feel I felt similar, but it happens to me when reading such a comment like yours that "my" downward spiral" turns suddenly upright again. I am holding onto small threads that we are soon getting Sam back. He is in such a bad place right now, but he himself is not disturbed by it.

He is (now)a dangerous, logical functioning "creature", his human (the very essence of Sam) part is not there anymore. Even this skywalker in that episode felt more "human" for me, because there was attachment to the woman and her boy!

This attachment Sam is missing, but HE doesn`t miss it, but we do miss it and Dean too!
I am not happy with the direction the show has taken, I expected an intimate, brothers hunting together against all evil, and rebuild their relationship, but how can you rebuild a relationship like this? Without Sam`s there is nothing to build and it is presented that Dean has to watch his own back with Sam. Nobody can trust him, he makes one step and then in the next moment he can turn against Dean. Watching this makes me sick!

I can imagine that Sam`s soul IS still in the cage and somehow it will be released without Lucifer. But there are of course repercussions, maybe Sam`s soul is now more demonic, or more angelic or both(melted with Lucifers energy) or it is more shattered and broken, in pieces. I think Sam`s soul is not responsible for the actions of this Sam now,how could it!

You said Sam is unredeemable with what he did, but how is a being without emotions, moral compass, soul responsible? Yeah, its like a rabid dog, and what do you do with it? Kill it, when innocent people are at stake. Sam doesn`t feel remorse, guilt, morality by his actions. Its really a question how long Dean can do this without to think of (again)killing "Sam". But this time I am not connected with Sam that much and I think it maybe inevitable at some time soon. This is just SO notSam, it would be not so hurtful. But if it means Sam`s soul is then forever in that cage with Lucifer or he is at some place in hell because of Crowley, it would be terrible for me to take and absolutely heartbreaking.

What I am trying to say with my simple words (sorry I am german)is, Sam`s soul is not responsible for the actions notwholeSam made here on earth, but when the soul comes back to Sam, we will have to deal with other fallouts. The demonblood in Swan Song, the memories of hell, Lucifers possession, what his other self did while Sam was not whole (I have problems with the despription).

I can imagine that some powerful being erases his memories so he can function- and knowing how strong Sam`s soul was (and maybe still is), there might be a piece of Sam left so we can recognize (our)Sam.
It`s sad, that the show went that way, I wanted the brothers being together so badly, but this is disturbing and I don`t feel well watching them like this. They are not connected and so I am not connected. With Sam`s soul the heart of the show is gone.

And isn`t it ironic that Dean is now supposed to show "unconditional" love since this is so difficult now? And in the past there was the moralic, good, soft, caring Sam with his good intentions and Dean didn`t saw it back then. Now I can`t see the good Sam anymore and Dean should.
And I am attached to Sam`s character and watch the show through his eyes, now I can`t it anymore. They stole my attachment!
# Shadow 2010-11-13 08:45
....and I want to add I feel depressed
# dmakdavis 2010-11-13 09:09
After All Dogs Go To Heaven I have come to a very harsh realization.

Sam is like a zombie, he's a reanimated body, who truly has no emotions. He is not Sam.

I also am beginning to think that maybe Dean is wanting to "fix" his brother out of instinct now rather than love.

Dean now knows that Sam cares for nothing and no one. I feel that Sam will have a new "mission" one where he will do anything to bag an alpha in order to get his soul back and Dean will see Sam hurt innocent people to accomplish his goal. The question will be how long will SPN draw this out?

"Sam" is dangerous. Sam is something that normally Dean would hunt and kill. Sam may very well be the ultimate "alpha". MY GOD Sam can't even figure out that you DON'T trust DEMONS for the love of Pete.

Seriously, raise your hand if you think Crowley will give Sam's soul back? Hell raise your hand if you think Crowley truly HAS Sam's soul?

Personally, for the sake of MY SAM, the one we know and love and miss and wanted back, I hope he's in Purgatory. I shiver to think of his soul having been in the cage for this long now.

I heartily agree with Tim the Enchanter, Sam is gone. There is no redemption from this. His soul will be in taters, his mind will be wrecked, and his relationship with Dean tanked. It won't be believable that the brothers would just come back and hug and go on with life after Sam gets his soul back, if he gets it back at all.

I suppose I should make my opinion a little more clear. I am beyond the whole "If you don't have a soul are you liable for your actions" question. I am thinking bigger picture. IF you get your soul back how do you get past what you've done? And more to point: How does Sam become Sam again after all he's been through? After 5 or 6 years of the crap he's put Dean through how does DEAN and SAM get past it together?

It was very naive of anyone to think, including me, that we could even go with "brotherly love conquers all" and then get back to monster of the week. The relationships are complicated in this show and there is just no believable way for the brothers to get through this. Perhaps if they would have made "IT" a skin walker instead of soulless Sam and Sam was held hostage somewhere kind of thing THAT I could have stomached but this is plain nukin' futz.

And you have to be somewhat realistic here: Dean is already showing signs of regretting leaving Lisa. His beat down of Sam shows us that even he must realize that Sam isn't "home" anymore. Dean is feeling love for a face, not his brother because this isn't his brother. The only reason that Dean is staying is because this "thing" looks like his brother whom Dean has spent his whole life protecting and caring for. We went through an emotional Season 5 in order for the boys to stop the self-sacrificin g in order for Sam to grow into the man who COULD jump into the pit.

I hope that I'm wrong, I hope that some miracle happens and I'm just wrong. But I see no other way but for Dean to kill Soulless Sam. Perhaps that will be the only way for Sam to get his soul back, or maybe he never gets his soul back and him and Dean pull a Thelma and Louise at the end like they were going to in the "Croatoan" episode. IDK but anything is better than this. I had such high hopes for Sam and Dean's relationship the season and so far saying that I'm disappointed is understatement.

The acting is excellent, the shows themselves are wonderful, I laughed at last nights episode (honestly, soulless or not that was funny WHATHAHAHAHA) but where the Brothers are at is sad to me. I expected more or at least not this.
# Kellymom 2010-11-13 11:17
For those of us you need to laugh with our boys to make it through all this heartbreaking stuff, go watch the sneek peak on the CW website:


SO FUNNY! I felt better after watching it.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-11-13 11:33
No, no, no, no, no, nooooooo. Sam’s not irredeemable (Holy crap, did I say Sam was irredeemable??? Reads past post frantically...) Jeez, if I thought that was the case I’d just cut my losses before I get in any deeper and I’d throw the computer out the window right now.

Sam will be redeemed; he has to be in some way, shape or form (unless the producers want a ‘March on Vancouver’). Same with Dean having to kill Soulless Sam, I don't see it happening. If it were a real life situation (did I just say that...) maybe, but to do it in a TV show would be TV show suicide.

It’s the brothers relationship that I feel is irredeemable. I don’t think it can go back to the way it was in Seasons 1 and 2. Too much has happened to them as individuals and as brothers. They'll get the easy banter bit back because that's as natural as breathing to them, but the deepness of a proper relationship? I don't see it happening.

When Sam gets his soul back he’s never going to be able to trust himself again because he’ll have realised that the very essence of who he is, is tremendously fickle and can be taken from him in a heartbeat. Dean had doubts about Sam ever before the soulless thing. Sam getting his soul back will just give Dean his brother back, but it won’t give him trust. Now add the demon blood, housing Lucifer, time in hell etc into the mix....

Dean will always have doubts about Sam, Sam will always have doubts about Sam; I don’t think having a soul back will change that. You can’t have a relationship without trust; you can’t have trust where there is doubt. (Though let me add once again, I've been wrong on EVERY SINGLE prediction made this year so expect Dean to kill Soulful Sam within a month...)

Sam is not irredeemable, Sam is not irredeemable, Sam is not irredeemable... ..
# Shadow 2010-11-13 11:57
Its just that I can`t enjoy because this is to near at my heart and I would have to rip my heart out to stay away from the show. Its almost a schizophrenic thing, because I feel not the connection anymore because of Sam`s disconnection and their missing relationship, but OTOH I am thinking and thinking ....and suffering too!

I feel like you with the relationship it can`t be like in season 1 or 2 anymore but it could be AWESOME in a different way. The wirters could pull this of (with the J`s acting no problem) with a earnest, sometimes a bit crazy new Sam (after Lucifers possession and reveals no wonder (and Sam`s time in hell)and with the new attitude to tell more about himself and WHAT HE wants and thinks, and Dean accepting Sam with his changes, and they go out in a bar and having a nice talk about their family or something different and supporting in a matured way....
btw Tim The Enchanter, I am shadowhund from the CW side and maybe we should take on the challenge to talk about Sam again in "reading Sam" the thread. Maybe I feel better then...and you too!
# Rose 2010-11-13 14:09
I came away from this episode very depressed. Now, after reading all the above comments something Shadow said resonated with me. "They are not connected and so I am not connected."

Bingo! This soulless-Sam is not our Sam, at all. He might as well be renamed Dexter. And Dean came to fully recognize that in this episode. He's depressed, I'm depressed and damn, I really, REALLY miss the brotherly relationship this show was built on.

Some said they found Sam's one-liners to be funny. I actually never laughed once during the show. It was just too heartbreaking to watch Dean realize how heartless NotSam is now.

I actually entertained, for the first time ever, the thought that maybe I should stop watching this show. I won't give up yet because I am so invested in their story but I hope this storyline doesn't drag on too long. I hate coming off every episode being more depressed than the last one!

That said, I'm really looking forward to next week's show. I need me some serious Supernatural comedy relief!
# Bevie 2010-11-13 15:08
Well, I hope with you folks that the relationship will eventually be better, though not like at the beginning.

It was the relationship that made me love this show more than any other and is really depressing the hell out of me right now. Sam has killed innocents before, as in "Born Under a Bad Sign" when he was possessed. I hope he is in some way possessed again and not just missing a part of himself.

Things are not pleasant when I'm entirely empathizing with Lucky and despising one of the brothers I used to care for. :shock:

In fact if I wasn't entirely loving the character of Dean Winchester, I wouldn't be watching right now as it is just too damn depressing and is breaking my heart! :cry::

I need to be thrown a bone of hope by the writers very very soon as this cyborg Sam is making me ill.
# nancyL 2010-11-13 15:19
Wow, the comments surely are depressing. I guess I am in the minority at seeing some good come out of this episode.

When Sam said that he couldn't careless about Lisa and Ben, I agreed, but then he said that he didn't care about Dean either. But he does remember that he did care about Dean at one time. I believe that he is sincere that he wants to be 'Dean's (and our) Sammy' again.

Come on, he has to remember 'Fresh blood' at least. How about 'Mystery spot'? He has to remember how he felt that whole season, and how he was ready to do ANYTHING for Dean.

I think that what may have pushed Sam into confessing to Dean his lack of feelings for him, is he saw how Dean reacted when Crowley burned his hand. He saw that no matter what has occured in the last weeks, Dean still will not do anything to cause Sam pain. Notice how quickly he had Cas heal Sam in the beginning of 'Family Matters'.

Ardeospina, I agree with you, Sam is not a better hunter without his soul. What good is it if you kill the monster but you end up killing innocents as well. That is not a job well done. :-x Drunk!Sam considered himself a failure in 'Playthings' because the man hung himself. Soulless!Sam would have considered that job a success.

I think that Dean will try with his last dying breath to get Sam's soul back, he wants his Sammy back.

And I agree, we need next episode to be funny and less stressful. Dean cursing out fairies :lol: :lol: :lol:
# Camila 2010-11-13 15:58
Now that you guys brought this up maybe Dean is really being set up to kill Sam, which will take everything back to "My time of dying." I like this idea of seeing Dean in a situation in which Dean will have to choose between John's last wish, saving innocent people and Sam's memory in the process, or his love for Sam.
# faye 2010-11-13 17:14
I have a speculation. We are all wondering how this is going to resolve, who has Sam's soul, who pulled him up from hell. This is my "what if?"

What if Dean pulled soulless Sam up from the pit? We know he tried, we know he read 100s of books. What if Dean pulled up everything but Sam's soul? Wouldn't that make Dean responsible for Sam's condition?

What do you think?
Mardem Jr.
# Mardem Jr. 2010-11-13 20:36
I had hopes of seeing Sam with his soul back as the mid-season cliffhanger, then we would have to deal with the emotional traumas that are sure to be present. But I'm feeling more and more depressed as a new episode airs. I don't think Dean is being set up to kill Sam, but I think we will have to get used to this Sam forever.

At the end of the last season, people were worried that if Sam came back from the cage too soon, his sacrifice would be 'diminished'. Knowing the evil genius that Kripke is (the guy still has a lot of influence there), I can totally see him leaving Sam like this forever, and both Sam, whose soul is somewhere definitely not good, and Dean would pay a gigantic price for having saved the world. His intention were to leave Sam dead for good at the end of season 5, and this a way to leave him 'dead'.

Now, do I want it to be like this? Hell no. But I can't see another way to solve this right now. Dean is certainly not trying to save Sam at all costs (nor I want him to, they tend to go long measures to save each other) and perhaps Crowley doesn't really own Sam.

My point is, I think we will never see old Sam back. And that really saddens me. Sorry for the ramble.
# Greeneyes 2010-11-13 20:53
I think the chat at the end of this very depressing episode moved the brothers relationship into a better direction. I felt Sam was brutally honest with Dean as he realized that unlike everyone else in the past year, he can't lie to Dean and get away with it. In a few weeks (if not days) Dean managed to see something other people didn't see for a whole year. Even Bobby, who supposedly knows Sam for a long time.
I think Sam is confused. He understands that something is wrong with him, but without his soul he doesn't know what it is. Like the Alpha Vamp said, Sam with out the Soul is the perfect animal. Lethal with no conscious. For Sam, finding his soul is another hunt.
Personally I doubt Crowley is the one that pulled Sam from the cage or that he has his soul. If the King of Hell could do that, Lucifer would have freed himself a long time ago. Lucifer created the Demons, which means he is also stronger then them. So as usual Crowley is using the current situation to his advantage, which is what makes him such an amazing villain.
I think Castiel knows much more then he is letting on. Maybe it is time to ask him if the whole Alpha thing is related to the civil war in heaven...
I doubt Sam's soul is in hell being tortured. I also think Samuel was not in heaven, but in hell and Crowley promised him to release his soul so he can be with his wife if he helps him...
I can't wait for this plot to be revealed. I do wish Dean and Sam finally get a break. While I love the anguish and all, I need to see some happy in all the misery. I need to see the brothers laughing every once in a while...
# Shadow 2010-11-14 07:54
Thank you Leora for writing these words about Sam. What he said in the last sequence of the episode..its good to see written in front of me, I am waiting for the review to understand the whole episode. I am often looking to this side, because Robin Vogel and Alice are giving a recap and this is the point where I understand the whole episode, because english is not my native language. And because of Supernatural I am learning english again!

I don`t like the direction the show has taken after Swan Song (my all time favourite, most moving episode) After the sacrifice Sam made it seems he can`t get a break from evil forces. The connection between the brothers is not in the best place, but maybe from now on it will get better, I hope!

And thank you for your words about Sam and the brothers relationship. Sam is now in a state he can`t connect with others, its like a disability regarding emotional connection and compassion. We can`t relate to him, nobody can. There is no other souless human, and even the zombies who climbed out from the graveyard had more emotions (the episode season 5.15 with Bobby and his wife) We got so far so little about Sam and he is (was) handled in a shady light -again, so its hard for us to know. We can`t know, we have no proof, we only can believe, when Sam is telling us about him, -if he tells the truth.
# NanT 2010-11-14 12:33
Just to add a little more fuel to the speculation fire...does anyone remember how Cas and the angels were at the beginning of season 4? Completely pragmatic, following orders blindly, willing to do anything to accomplish their ends, including wiping out entire towns. Dean called Cas on it: "you're one heartless SOB," and Cas agreed, "as a matter of fact, I am." It took him months to understand the point of emotions, much less feel them himself, and almost the whole season before he began to question the orders. That didn't make him evil--just "not human." (And so it would seem that the human soul is what makes one "human." Hmmm...which would leave soulless Sam in some kind of limbo--or maybe trying to find his soul which is lost in purgatory? But that's a whole other speculation thread!)

Anyway...since I *do* think Cas is much more involved than he's letting on (especially with his cryptic comment about having to do distasteful things and his apparent unwillingness to look Dean in the eye), and following all the comments above about Crowley's lack of juice to pull Sam out...

Well, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except that it's interesting to speculate. Sam is *not* evil--he hasn't done anything that the supposedly "emotionless" angels wouldn't do (well, except for the snark, which I think he picked up from trying to mimic Dean, though he hasn't quite gotten the hang of it yet...) He doesn't rejoice in doing harm, the way a demon would. He is merely being used as a weapon to some as yet unknown end. It's still a question as to who is wielding him. Personally, I tend to think it's the angels--and I'm sure Balthazar is somewhere in the mix. And I think Dean was brought back into the game to make sure Sam *doesn't* go off the deep end and become irredeemable.

So, yes, I believe Sam will be redeemed. I believe Dean will regain faith, though it probably won't be till the end of the season. I think Cas and Crowley might actually be working together (unwillingly, and very unhappily) to stabilize both heaven and hell. And I believe I'll probably be proven wrong within an episode or two...but it will still be interesting to watch.
# NanT 2010-11-15 12:34
Oh, Sorry, Leslie92708! You're absolutely right, and I didn't mean to imply that Sam can "relearn" his soul, any more than someone can use a limb they've lost, though they can make do with a substitute (without feelings? Which is sort of where he is now?) I was just trying to counter some of the discussion here that Sam was becoming "irredeemable" and Soulless Sam was evil (or destined to become evil). I think he's behaving the way angels were originally *supposed* to act before Cas started understanding and empathizing. And you're right, it's not going to be enough for Dean, who really, truly wants *his* Sam back.

And the fact that Sam admitted to being "wrong" so early on (compared to Dean in season 4) gives me hope that he'll be back sooner rather than later. And I have the horrible feeling that when Sam is reunited with his soul he is going to implode with guilt over what he'd done in the meanwhile. I'm just hoping the fact that the others went through it already will help him out (and that TPTB will not repeat ground they've already covered thoroughly!)

However, I still think Cas is withholding something. And I'm still doubtful that Crowley has Sam's soul. I think it's going to be much more complicated than that, especially with the war going on. After all, Purgatory is supposedly between Heaven and Hell, which would make it prime territory for both sides--a sort of DMZ that both sides would want--or at least want to prevent the other side from taking it over.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-11-16 03:19
I know Sam is redeemable, Leona (hence the big ‘Sam is redeemable’ rant!) I’m not sure I’m going to base my belief entirely on that conversation at the end of the episode though.

I feel, from a logical point of view, it would make zero sense for Sam to want his soul back. If he is only thinking logically then why would he want to go from a state of certainty, where there is no guilt or pain, only action, back to a state where he is full of uncertainty, guilt and suffering?

Same goes with Dean. Sam’s lied to his face once or twice (or non-stop) before. Dean would be awful foolish to believe him now based on this premise.

The perils of character assassination aside, I think it would be a pretty bad move on the part of the writers to make a character that so many people are invested in, irredeemable. From a storyline point of view, the attraction and novelty of soulless Sam would wear off pretty quickly if this is as far as things can go with him.

The irredeemable aspect referred to Ardeospinas poll about the current state of the brotherly relationship. I know they're family but that fact alone isn't enough to cover over the huge chasm that is their relationship. (Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel are also family and I don't see them sitting down to Christmas dinner any time soon)

That relationship, I feel, can’t go back to the way it was before. Too much has happened between them, and when Sam does get his soul back, both boys will have a truckload they need to sort out between them. Any foundations they lay will be fragile and I feel it’s going to take more than the time that’s left to even build shaky foundations.

If the aim is to rebuild the brothers relationship, (and this really is the heart of the show, not the brothers as individuals) getting Sam’s soul back is just the first step. Deans trust, faith and sense of self will also have to be rebuilt before they can even think about rebuilding the relationship. The shaky foundations the relationship was built on for years won’t be able to withstand the weight of the relationship as it stands at the moment.

I too feel that Sam has many more positives than negatives but I can't agree with you when you say actions are not the only win that counts. They shouldn't be, but they are. If that was the case, Sam should have been rewarded for jumping in the Pit. He should have been rewarded for killing Lilith, or going to college or trying to protect Dean. He wasn't as it's via our actions we are judged because our actions are merely a manifestation of our intentions.

When it comes to adding up the score sheet, whoever is doing the counting is just going to look at Sams actions and see: released Lucifer, said yes to Lucifer, killed innocents, drank blood etc etc. He not going to write 'Yearrah, he didn't mean any of it' at the bottom.

My fierce admiration for Sam stems from the fact that despite the mountains of crap thrown at him, he doesn't give up, that he is inherently good and right and that his intentions are always true. However, for once, I'd like these best intentions to be acknowledged and rewarded accordingly.