Now thatâ€™s more like it! After three weeks of mediocre, and often times quite troubling episodes, this is exactly what we needed.
If you havenâ€™t seen â€œSlash Fictionâ€ hereâ€™s your warning now. I am about to discuss things that happened in the episode and all the glorious possibilities it sets up.
The Leviathan showdown finally gets moving in a big way! This episode was action packed from beginning to end. Bobby gets an awesome story and the girl! Okay, sort of. And Sam and Dean, oh man, that is one perfect way to let out a secret (even if the whole story line has been contrived). Sam was truly devastated.
Oh, where do I start? First, the writing was great. Now Iâ€™m sure we could pick apart a few plot points, but the dialogue was sharp, funny, and awesome in every way.
The humor is back. Dean swooning to Air Supplyâ€™s â€œAll Out of Loveâ€ in the car? I first expected a â€œTommy Boyâ€ moment where both would start breaking out in a loud sing along, but Dean lip synching and Sam watching him with horrified faces was even better and certainly more in character.
Was that car a Chevette? It was certainly Chevette like. If you are going to go for the polar opposite of a bitching classic car, thatâ€™s it. They looked so uncomfortable in that thing. The car conversation spurns an awesome Dean line. â€œSwayze always gets a pass.â€
I like how Chet the Leviathan revealed how they knew about the aliases. I thought it came from Cass, but Iâ€™m glad it got out in the open for those that didnâ€™t believe that.
What did you think of Frank? I loved him and his quirky conspiracy minded paranoia. The March of Dimes? Hilarious. Too bad there wasnâ€™t much time for him. Hopefully heâ€™ll be back. Do you think the rock star aliases are really gone?
I do love when Bobby is given an awesome story line. I had to admit, when Sheriff Mills showed up, I thought she was one of the Leviathan. I especially thought that when she told him to call her â€œJodie.â€ She even tried to get him to talk about his house burning down. Way to finally mention that.
What did you think of the accidental discovery on how to take out the Leviathan? Borax? I think it was great, especially when Bobby discovered it. He was so happy he kissed Sheriff Mills! I think it was a perfect and believable twist, and I appreciated the lightheartedness as well.
I did have a little trouble with the brutal violence of the Leviathan, but Iâ€™m glad to see Sam and Dean finally take something personally. I also LOVE how the Leviathan started going through season one and doing their crime spree in order. A fantastic shoutout to continuity, and something thatâ€™s been sorely missing. There were a lot of shoutouts to prior episodes. This was definitely written by a fan. Iâ€™ll have to try and compile a list of those shoutouts for my review.
Hereâ€™s a fun observation. They got arrested in Ankeny, Iowa, right? Didnâ€™t Sam spend some time in that jail in â€œHookman?â€ Shoutout!
Did you laugh over the Leviathans talking smack about Sam and Dean like I did? How fake Dean finds real Deanâ€™s burger habit disgusting. Fake Sam hates salads too! â€œDead plants with creamy goo. Itâ€™s like eating self righteousness.â€ â€œTalk about a hero complex. He doesnâ€™t have relationships, he has applications for sainthood.â€ Fake Sam canâ€™t understand how real Sam deals with seeing Satan all the time. â€œYou know I had a brother with issues like this once. I ate him.â€
How about the fake Bobby trying to get into the real Bobbyâ€™s head? Do you think Bobby and Sheriff Mills, sorry Jodie, can make a go of it? Judging by the end, heâ€™s going to need help. Heâ€™s pretty clueless.
Now that Crowley has been â€œdissedâ€ by head Leviathan dude, you think heâ€™s going to team up with Sam, Dean and Bobby again? Will they let him after what happened to Castiel? How would you like to see that play out? These Leviathan are every bit as arrogant as the angels. That always seems to lead to the downfall of the bad guy, doesnâ€™t it?
Then thereâ€™s, my favorite part, Sam finding out Deanâ€™s secret. Yeah, I called it, the doppleganger would be the one to tell him. I figured that out as soon as I saw the promo. Still, didnâ€™t it play out so well? Bravo to Jared for selling Samâ€™s utter devastation. Even when it was time to leave with the real Dean, Sam was too upset to go. He had to force himself. It really broke my heart. Sam has been through so much, he doesn't need this kind of betrayal.
The ending scene has been one of some hot discussion this week. Jensen confessed during his Q & A in Chicago last weekend that he and Jared rewrote it. It wasnâ€™t over the top dialogue and I liked that. Sam was so angry and hurt he didnâ€™t want to be with Dean. On the flip side, Dean let him go. Did you like how it played out? Yeah, itâ€™s another parting, but I like how this time, Sam just couldnâ€™t talk about it. He wanted to be alone. Iâ€™m dying to see what happens when they do talk.
I have to admit, Iâ€™ve hated the whole â€œsecretâ€ business about Amy from the second it happened. Now that itâ€™s out in the open, I do love how the reveal was at least handled. The whole thing risks Sam and Dean becoming parodies of themselves (thanks Bookdal for the words) but the writers had to write themselves out of the corner somehow. Since the extremely disappointing promo shows them working together next week like nothing happened (thus reminding me of last seasonâ€™s "Mannequin 3: The Reckoning" after a great setup with "Unforgiven"), how quickly do you think itâ€™ll take them to reconcile? If itâ€™s within the first two minutes, Iâ€™ll be extremely disappointed.
So, tell me, what you think? Did you love this episode as much as I did? Please do share. Oh, and thanks to Ardeospina for letting me run with this while sheâ€™s on maternity leave.
I confess the Air Supply scene had me initially confused, like maybe an outtake accidentally made it into the show...but then...it kept going and I was literally jumping around my living room laughing. Best moment of the episode, and maybe the whole show.
Now, the rest. I agree with all you said! I was immediately suspicious of Sheriff Mills when she showed up, and I was so relieved when she didn't reveal herself to be Leviathan!
The "secret". Yeah. I did love the reveal of it. Poor Sam. I don't think they'll make up immediately, but put aside differences to do the job. Plus, Sam might realize he can't handle the Hell-ucinations without Dean...I dunno. I don't think it'll be an immediate "your forgiven" though.
Was there any alcohol in this ep? I don't recall seeing Dean with any beverages? I mean granted they didn't have much (or any) downtime...
Such a great episode overall. I hope next week can sustain some of the momentum. I agree; it looks a little odd.
Tonight's episode was great. Loved Dean singing, loved seeing Bobby and Crowley. Good job! I hope it keeps the great story lines going.
Chet's torture was funny (and I hate actually using those words) but the accidental discovery of the borax just came too cheap and easy.
Jody Mills arrival was another was another stick in my craw. She waltzes from a few states over just so she can cook and clean for Bobby?! Was idiot thinks that's what a woman LIVES for?
The violence by evil Bill and Ted was too over the top and too repetative.
Speaking of redundant: Sam walking out on Dean AGAIN, Maybe after the crap season 6 and the crap they did to Castiel, I just don't have much tolerence anymore for the same old same old.
I loved the reveal scene. Levia!Dean was deliciously evil (for all that Jared gets to play darker Sam/Lucifer, this episode proved we need more dark Dean from Jensen!) and Sam was absolutely devastated. I saw it coming, knew the leviathan was going to tell, and it still broke my heart.
I've been assuming that Sam finding out about Amy was going to be the start of him falling apart again. Levia!Sam confirmed that Sam's got a lot going on underneath the surface, ready to boil over. And Dean wants to be Sam's stone number one to rebuild his sanity on, but this betrayal clearly puts a crack in that foundation. I'm not surprised in the least that Sam needed space to cool off and deal.
Also, Bobby/Jodie OTP.
As for Bobby and Jodie, they're perfect for each other. Let's add Marcy to the mix and have a good old fashioned love triangle with Bobby as the prize. That would be good to watch in my opinion.
As for Sam and Dean, I think they'll be alright after Sam cools off and thinks about it. Dean was right even though his way of going about it left much to be desired. There needs to be one big sit down between the two of them to get everything out into the open.
Oh, it was good to see Dean laying off the booze for once. He seemed more like his old self.
And...the cast and crew did a fantastic job tonight! I thought the writing was more cohesive than it has been in the past few episodes. Someone actually did their homework and looked at prior episodes and used that information. The director did a great job! The pacing was fast, but not too fast. It was just right! Overall, an 8 or even a 9 in my book!
The car and the dinner scene had me in stitches. Sam's face in the car and "I ate him."
Finally someone mentioned Cas. It was pretty obvious that they'd get clues from him though. I'll miss Chet the Levi. He was one of my favorite monsters. That dude was really funny. Yay for Bobby/Jodie and he's so clueless.
I hope next week is as awesome as this one.
I'm glad someone mentioned Cas again, at least SOMEONE remembered his existence, I'd have thought the guy never existed at this rate...
And as for Crowley and the boys team-up, it wouldn't surprise me if they do go running to Crowley, why you say? Because they already ran to Crowley in the premiere, so why not? Clearly it's okay when they have to do it to save the world but Cas gets all the bitch-fest if he did it for the same reasons. Winchesters are good at double standards so this wouldn't surprise me one bit if they team-up with Crowley.
The conversation between the fake Sam and Dean in the restaurant was awesome.
I enjoyed the pattern of cities attacked, especially when Sam discovered the pattern while they were on their way to St. Louis, where they first met a shapeshifter, and Dean's death was first faked.
I was not thrilled with Sam's walk off, but will be hopeful.
I loved when the doppelgangers discuss the psychological issues of our heroes. And Dean lip-synching to Air Supply, I choked with laughter. I also thought when Sheriff Mills showed up that she may have been a Leviathan. I'm so glad she wasn't, she & Bobby are very cute together, I hope we get to see more of this budding romance. And we finally got a Butch & Sundance shout-out.
I see it a little differently, to me it was Dean has been through so much and lost so much lately that he didn't need his Sammy running out on him again.
Sorry, but I'm on Dean's wavelength when it comes to Amy. She was a pretty monster but she ATE people! Sam should remember another beautiful girl who he had to shoot himself, as she was a monster also. Madison. I liked Madison a lot, but she begged Sammy to kill her. Would he have done it if she too had begged for her life? Who knows. Dean would have done it anyway.
Loved Bobby and the sheriff! Loved the discussions between the leviathan/Dean & Sam.
I think this is my favourite episode so far this season (except for the ending).
Dean was the stone Sam is trying to build his reality on and he is trying to keep a tight hold on that and finding out about Amy has rocked that .Sam just needs to process it .This time it wasnt about Dean .
The boys will wor it out but will this be a tipping point for Sam who is not stable despite outward appareances.
I thought this first-time writer did an excellent job on his script. I did like the witty dialogue. I like John Showalter's work, and this episode had the tone and the gritty look that the show should have (except for the ending conversation).
Didn't like the girly hook-up angle between Bobby and Jodie. As far as I'm concerned, her character is now ruined for me. She manages to know where Bobby is, but the Levi don't?? Okay. But to show up to cook and clean for Bobby on her vacation days so that another love interest can be inserted in the show? Nope, character is done for me. (Too bad, because I used to like her.)
I liked the development, or background, of Bobby's character -- great scene. So Bobby joins the Daddy Issues Club. Good for him. I wished the boys could be developed beyond their S1, S2, S3, S4, and S5 selves.
I am actually still pretty interested in Dick Roman as the big bad, but all during his scenes I was thinking he's no Zachariah. I liked Edgar, too. Anyway, we'll see where they take him.
Crowley, poor baby got dissed. The Winchesters will probably welcome him back into the fold to take care of the problem.
Well, Frank wasn't nearly as good as Ash, but he'll do. I always liked the relationship Dean and Ash had, but I don't see anything but the brothers responding in a comedic way to Frank. I'd rather have the Ash one, because it reflected two hard drinking, tough, edge of crazy guys and that was more fun to watch than the guys taking a back seat to some random nut job.
Oh, and did I mention I loved the Borax solution. Bobby probably knows about the Twenty Mule Team.
Next week's episode isn't looking all that good, unfortunately, but I hope it isn't so awful as to have Dean apologize to Sam AGAIN, or that Bobby scolds him into apologizing because of Sam's poor nutballs, and that it all isn't done in the first few minutes of the episode.
Last comment, I promise. I guess Dean cured himself of alcoholism as quickly as Sam healed himself mentally. My goodness, those Winchesters certainly have the recuperative powers going.
Nitpicks aside. This was a fun and refreshing episode, despite having the little bit of girly moments that this showrunner seems to like.
Knowing that they rewrote this shows us fans very good how they 2JÂ´s see Sam and Dean.
This (trust) is something Sam has strived for since 5.01, hell, since 1.01. Not the trust that Sam will have his back in a fight, or do research properly etc but that Sam can be his equal, do the right thing and make the right decision. I feel it was this declaration of trust, coupled with Deanâ€™s â€˜make this stone number one and build on itâ€™, that led Sam to a place where he is more at peace with who/what he is in 7.04.
Unfortunately, Iâ€™m now wondering if the realisation that Dean still doesnâ€™t trust him will have longer-reaching implications for Sam. I feel this reveal is going to make it much more difficult for Sam to differentiate between LuciferDean and real Dean now. Theyâ€™ve both lied to him so how can Sam now know that the whole thing is not just one big elaborate game Lucifer has devised for jollies (and rest assured, Lucifer will be only chomping at the bit to throw this at Sam)?
Add to that, how can Sam trust himself when his brother, the 'stone number one', doesn't? I also think it might reopen the debate in Sam's mind that if it's a monster, should it be killed? He saw numerous similarities between himself and Amy. He freely admitted that he's a freak so what exactly is the difference between Sam and Amy? Do they both 'deserve' to meet the same fate?
Now I must go and speculate about the actual episode. Oh, the trials!!
I hope Sam is able to work through it and go back to Dean to then work it out with him. And Dean is the one in the wrong here - not for killing Amy, but in the way he did it - behind Sam's back - and then in continuing to not tell Sam the truth about it.
Thanks again, Tim, for stating this better than I could. Now get out of my head!
You can discuss if Dean was right in killing Amy but it was wrong to lie about it and keep lying.
What Dean stated was I canÂ´t trust you.
That should have also been a choice!!!
I liked the pacing in this episode - the story lines developed fast and furious, without sacrificing character development.
I also enjoyed Jodie's interactions with Bobby; I liked the sparks of humor. I was sorry to see the elderly sheriff die though.
There were plenty of oppertunities to tell Sam the truthe. So Sam walking out on Dean this time. If Dean wants to work with Sam than he has to trust him in all, in his choices, his work, reserce and judgment.
And one other thing - at the end of the ep did anyone else notice that the My Little Pony figure was lying in the trunk next to the two heads - I wonder if Dean was planning to dispose of it also.
I'm really enjoying this season. Is it Friday yet?
I laughed! (Dean lipsynching to Air Supply! Snort and guffaw!)
I cried! (LeviDean breaks RealSam's heart, and the black goo hits the fan for both brothers!)
As for the ending, I did read one reviewer who said a new twist on this age-old brother battle would have been for Sam to bop Dean in the chops, yell at him and express - at that moment- how betrayed he felt. Now, that would have been something to see, and a refreshing change I have to admit.
But, the truth is, by the time we're adults we have old habits that we fall into. And that's especially true when we're fighting with family and/or significant others. I know when my husband and I are arguing, we still go about it the same way we did when we were first married. (Sigh. No character growth in this house either!)
So, when Sam is wronged, he yells at Dean and creates a distance between them. Sometimes it's a real separation. Sometimes it's just a short cooling off period. Maybe this time, they will be together, but existing in a very frosty silence, so they'll have an emotional distance.
I think Sam is upset that Amy is dead, but more upset that Dean said he trusted him and then went and killed her anyway. That's crushing for Sam right now, as he tries to rebuild his sanity. He needs to believe that Dean believes in him. Now, he's going to question that. That can't be good. He needs that Stone #1, so Dean has some work to do in the "foundation repair business."
Although in fairness to Dean, I don't think he was in a completely sane state of mind when he killed Amy. He was grieving Cas, and still dealing with the fact Sam couldn't tell the difference between RealDean and LuciDean and was fired at by his own brother. I'm not sure Dean even totally understands why he killed Amy and that's going to make it harder to explain or rationalize it to Sam. The show is full of minor monsters who get ganked, and bigtime baddies who walk. Amy is yet another shade of grey in this monochrome.
As well, like all baddies, LeviDean only told part of the truth when he said RealDean thinks Sam is off his game. Dean is concerned about how/if Sam can really cope with his Hellucinations. He's worried about that in terms of how it affects the safety of both brothers. I don't think it's as negative a sentiment as LeviDean painted it. He manipulated the truth, much like a demon. I do think JA did a great job with him. I think we need a few more EvilDean characters. They're spicy and sassy and fun!
Also, I was intrigued by Dick Roman. His haughty, hateful attitude with Crowley was surprising. Why are Leviathans disdainful of demons? History there?
As for speculation on the future, I think Sam & Dean will carry this around with them for awhile - lots of uncomfortable silences, and loads of snide comments from Sam, and snark from Dean. But, I think eventually they'll have to talk. If they are being backed into a corner, then each needs to know that the only other soldier in the foxhole has his back. I'm talking about TRUST, and they're going to have to rebuild it, or they will doom themselves.
I can understand why people feel this episode is hugely engaging. It introduced new and reintroduced old. It mentioned Castiel so thereâ€™s hope that the issues that remain unresolved that may now get settled. It bought to light an outstanding issue and there were plenty of throwbacks to classic moments of old. However, looking at it with my cranky eyes, this episode doesnâ€™t sit well with me one bit.
Number one: Leviathan Sam and Leviathan Dean. Yes, they were funny, yes, they were kinda hot (if homicidal is your thing). However, theyâ€™ve pretty much ensured that the Winchesters cannot now, at any stage, get out of the life. They will now have to keep their heads down and be on their guard forever. They go into a library, or to get a burger or interview a witness at any time from here on in, there will now always be the possibility that someone there will have been watching the news those few days in October 2011 and say â€˜Youâ€™re the guys who shot the bank/restaurant etc full of people. Arenâ€™t you meant to be dead?â€™ Next thing we (they) know, hello FBI. They will no longer be able to have a momentâ€™s true peace, until the day they die. This, quite frankly, depresses me. I like to think that one day, at the end of it all, they could at least be afforded the opportunity to just rest. I now get what Mo Ryan (was it Mo Ryan??) said when she spoke about the show being too dark. After this episode, Iâ€™m seeing a damn bleak future. (And lets face it, plastic surgery is not an option for these guys.)
Number two: Frank. Yes he was funny and paranoid etc but honestly, I donâ€™t see the point of him. The Winchesters have been living off the grid for almost three decades now and suddenly they need advice on..... how to live off the grid? Why on earth do they need Frank to make fake IDâ€™s when Dean has probably been making IDâ€™s since he learned to do joined-up writing? I appreciate that the show needs to introduce new characters but I donâ€™t believe in introducing new characters just for the sake of introducing new characters. For me, the introduction of Frank made the Winchesters seem incompetent and I donâ€™t like the suggestion that Sam and Dean are incompetent.
Number three: The FBI. Okay, I freely admit that our police force isnâ€™t the best (apologies to any members of An Garda SiochÃ¡na reading here. Youâ€™re doing a great job lads, keep it up!) However, is it standard operating procedure for the FBI (the FBI!!!) to be so damn lackadaisical in their work? These guys (the â€˜Winchestersâ €™) had killed dozens in cold blood and unleashed a reign of terror on small town America, yet the FBI take the word of a small town sheriff and his daughter that these guys had been arrested, killed, autopsied and cremated in the time it took them to drive there! Not only that, they then canâ€™t be arsed checking it out because â€˜No bodies, no paperworkâ€™. What. The. Fuck!! Has Hollywood ruined me or is this actually the general attitude of the FBI?
Number four: As the Leviathans manage to yâ€™know, get themselves out there via the water, is it the smartest thing in the world to dump their heads back into the water? I thought water would be the last place you should be introducing Leviathan body parts to? I imagine a diluted Leviathan is still a dangerous Leviathan. Again, incompetent Winchesters, not my favourite flavour of Winchester. (Speaking of, end of this scene, Sam takes his bags, tells Dean to go on without him and then starts walking down the pier!!! Whatâ€™s he going to do, walk to Australia?? That whole scene just made Sam look absolutely ridiculous.)
Number five: The reveal. I knew it was coming. It came and I hated it. I absolutely hated it. In the same way I hated that Sam didn't tell Dean about the powers, I hated that Dean didnâ€™t have the sack to come clean to his brother (and would quite conceivably have let Sam tip away happily rebuilding himself on an ideal that is more porous than Bobbyâ€™s floor). I hate that the writers have seemingly decided to push aside Deanâ€™s actions (killing Amy) and focus on Samâ€™s action (walking away). I hate that the show is trying to turn Dean into an infant by not allowing him the chance to be held accountable for his actions. I hate that a slim chance of seeing things from Samâ€™s POV came to naught, again. Weâ€™ve had more than six years of seeing how Samâ€™s actions affect Dean and when the carrot of reversal is dangled in front of us, itâ€™s whipped away at the last moment.
So I think 7.06 was my breaking point. That incident has given me ample proof that the show has no interest in writing anything that might indulge us in Samâ€™s POV. For the last year and a half I felt that it would come eventually. I donâ€™t believe that any more. I donâ€™t think the show can write Samâ€™s POV, or quite frankly, has any interest in exploring it. Theyâ€™ve spent over 6 years avoiding it (and it was a great show without it) so I now believe that itâ€™s too big of a leap for them to try for an emotional side of Sam that will (a) tie up what people already suspect about him (b) the tidbits of character development we have seen while (c) doing justice to the character.
The previews for next week certainly have done nothing to allay my fears that the whole killing Amy scenario will be brushed aside with a simple â€˜Sorry manâ€™. End of story.
Not only that, but the show has chosen to reopen the theme of the last six years in terms of the whole Freak = Monster = needs to be put down debate, an idea that Sam has fought on his back to dispel. But again, it provided compelling viewing for six years so you canâ€™t blame the writers for going back to a tried and tested formula. I just wish it didnâ€™t feel as if the writers were creating the same doubts about the same characters.
There was a question posed earlier â€˜How can Dean trust Sam when Lucifer is still in Samâ€™s headâ€™? Itâ€™s a fair question. As a hunter, as a person, how can Dean trust Sam? All logic says he canâ€™t. The thing is, Lucifer will always be there, the doubt will always be there so can Dean ever trust Sam? He might want to, but can he? And Iâ€™m sorry but without trust there is no equality. Without equality there is no relationship. Without the relationship, for me, there is no show.
Apologies for being such a whiny little bitch about an episode that, from what Iâ€™ve read, seems to be universally liked. (I think I might be getting the menopause. That comes at about 30, right??) Itâ€™s just that this episode has left me with an overwhelming sense of dread about the rest of the season, a feeling Iâ€™m praying doesnâ€™t play out but to be honest, Iâ€™m past hoping that it wonâ€™t.
I'm with you on this one. I did not feel better about the future of the show after this episode. Sure, I giggled a few times and was entertained for parts of it, but mostly I was uneasy. The writing just is not grabbing me like it used to--and some of the technical aspects of the show feel off to me as well. The color of the show feels brighter and lighter (which is weird since the tone is darker!), and the score of the show has a different sound from the first 5 seasons. For me, it all combines together to undermine the cinematic feel the show used to have and it makes the plot feel very "on the nose" rather than layered and complicated. I'm definitely having a hard time this season.
Tim, the episode ended with Sam getting angry at Dean and leaving him, and Dean apologizing and letting him go. How would you prefer for Dean to be held accountable, as opposed to being yelled at, apologizing, and then watching his last remaining family member walk away from him? And regardless of preference, does it make sense to say he's not being held accountable when that was the final scene of the episode, much less to insult the character by calling him an infant? There was nothing infantile about that scene, from either brother.
I have not been this unhappy since season four.
The episode ended with Dean saying â€˜Sorryâ€™ in an attempt to placate his brother and then turning to get back into the car. What is Dean even sorry for; killing Amy, lying to Sam, going behind his back or getting caught? The final shot of that scene focused on Sam turning his back, and walking away. Therefore the lasting effect of that scene was not the apology or what led Sam to walking away, it was Sam walking away from the apology, not the apology itself.
Accountability does not mean throwing out a â€˜Sorryâ€™ and thatâ€™s the slate wiped clean. Sam apologised in 5.01 and it wasnâ€™t enough. He was made to account for his actions for over a year and he atoned for them. He also faced up to what he did as Soulless Sam and sought to make amends for that. That, to me, is accountability. Sorry is just a word, and of little merit unless itâ€™s followed up by action.
However, accountability only comes into play if one realises that one has done wrong. Iâ€™m aware itâ€™s an unpopular opinion but I feel Dean was wrong, very wrong, in killing Amy. I also feel that he was wrong in telling Sam that he trusted him when he clearly didnâ€™t, regardless of whatever reasons he has for doing so. Giving the timing of the two events, Dean must have had his mind made up that he was going to kill Amy even as he was telling Sam he trusted him. However, had Dean thought about it for even two minutes, he would have realised that killed her was a monumentally bad decision.
When Dean killed Amy, he didnâ€™t just kill a kitsune, he killed a mother, made her son an orphan and created another, much more dangerous monster. If he killed Amy solely because she was a monster, then he should also have killed her son, simple as. The world canâ€™t be black and white when it suits and grey when it doesnâ€™t.
In relation to Dean being treated like an infant (and I believe I said the show is trying to turn him into an infant, I didnâ€™t â€˜insultâ€™ him by calling him an infant), I feel that, on many occasions, the show shies away or diverts attention from situations in which the audience would be forced to examine the aftermath of Deanâ€™s questionable actions.
For example, after killing Amy, Dean saw Jacob and hit him with the â€˜You kill and Iâ€™ll be back for youâ€™ statement. By putting the onus for his survival on Jacobs lap, it completely absolves Dean of anything to do with future consequences in relation to Jacob. Jacob has gotten fair warning. If he kills, Dean will kill him. By depicting Dean as being magnanimous and letting Jacob live, it nullified what he had done moments earlier. Only in this case, doing a â€˜goodâ€™ deed does not negate the bad.
By killing Amy, Jacobâ€™s only two options now are (a) kill to survive and end up being put down or (b) choose not to kill and die. Dean took away the kids only family and his one shot at not being a â€˜monsterâ€™. He might not have gotten his hands dirty by killing a child (sorry, a monster. Kitsune = monster, must remember that) but he cast a death sentence on Jacob as certain as the one he did on his mother. This is the consequence of Dean killing Amy, not the mere killing of a â€˜monsterâ€™.
I certainly hope Iâ€™m wrong but I think itâ€™ll be a cold day in hell before the show addresses this. Examples such as the above are the aftermath of the actions of Sam and Dean only in Samâ€™s case theyâ€™re highlighted, whereas in Deanâ€™s case, for the most part, theyâ€™re ignored. In 7.06 the point of the scene was that Dean royally fucked up but the emphasis of the scene is that Sam left. In 7.03, the point of the scene was that Dean killed Amy yet the emphasis of the scene is that Dean let Jacob go. In 4.22 Sam killed a demon to get what he needed yet the emphasis was on the fact that the demon was a human. In 6.21 Dean tortured and killed numerous demons to get what he wanted yet at no stage are we reminded that they too were human, and as terrified as Nancy must have been when Sam killed her. 4.22 Sam kills one monster (Lilith) and the result is that he created another, much worse, one (Lucifer). 7.03 Dean kills a monster and..... nothing. This, to me, is infantilizing Dean because itâ€™s not letting him, or us, consider that the course of action he chooses to take has far reaching consequences.
By choosing not to address that, Iâ€™m led to ask why. Is it because the show doesnâ€™t want Dean (or us) questioning what he did, because he doesnâ€™t care about what he did or because he canâ€™t explain why he did what he did. Thereâ€™s all this time spent on how the actions of others affect Dean, but by not allowing the audience to appreciate that Deanâ€™s actions affect others itâ€™s treating both characters unfairly. Sam is demonised as he is the one that all the moral questions are posited at whereas Dean is canonised because by never giving him the privilege of having to explain himself, itâ€™s brushing over what he did and what motivated him to do it in the first place. This does nothing to bring about a sense of balance between the brothers. Itâ€™s also doing the show itself damage because itâ€™s enabling the two main characters to become caricatures of themselves.
Ali, you asked me how Iâ€™d like Dean to be held accountable. Iâ€™d like Dean to be given the same consideration that Sam is given, an opportunity to justify his actions and then let him be judged and redeemed accordingly. I donâ€™t want his actions to go unexplained again. It cheapens him because it insinuates that he canâ€™t explain himself.
Quote:Ali, please realise that wanting more from a character and questioning their actions does not mean I have a â€˜preferenceâ€ ™ for one over the other. It just means I have enough respect for Dean to expect him to be treated as an adult, not a child. I find that supporting a character blindly, regardless of what he/she does, makes one biased and lazy.
Of course it doesn't. But he did apologize, which should not be glossed over, and he was left by his brother, which should also not be ignored. He is currently suffering the consequences of his actions in the last few minutes of that episode. He has not been forgiven, he has not been excused, he is blamed, he is left, and he apologizes. That's just about as much as I think the show can do in the ending of an episode to show that they ARE holding him accountable.
Dean is not going to think it was wrong to kill Amy, because she was a serial killer raising a child who got sick if she didn't kill living people to feed him. She was a predator who fed on humans, and no matter how much he sympathized with her position, he felt that it was very likely she would kill again. While you may disagree with that opinion, it's a) a valid opinion, and b) not something that he needs to abandon in order to be held accountable for his actions. One can be held accountable for an action that one still believes was right.
"Iâ€™d like Dean to be given the same consideration that Sam is given, an opportunity to justify his actions and then let him be judged and redeemed accordingly. I donâ€™t want his actions to go unexplained again. It cheapens him because it insinuates that he canâ€™t explain himself."
Tim, you have nothing to fear (as I imagine you already know, because you say you've seen the next episode's previews). I would advise in the future, though, to not assume that the show isn't going to do something when they've had no time to do it yet. Ending the episode on their confrontation doesn't mean that Dean will never have the chance to explain his actions; it simply means the episode is over, and another one is coming next week.
Add to that, Amy made the exact same choice in 7.03 as Dean did in 6.21. They both killed to protect family. So the question is, was Amy a monster (and the fact that she went without killing for so long would suggest otherwise) or someone who did something monstrous?
Quote:I never said it wasnâ€™t a valid opinion. However, it is a belief that Dean has abandoned many, many times. If a monster is a monster, why was Jacob left alive, or Patrick, or Lucky, or the Starks or Sam for that matter?
Quote:Ami, do you honestly think Iâ€™d be coming on here discussing something I fear if I already knew I have nothing to fear! Itâ€™s because I've seen the 7.07 preview I feel I've something to fear. Had I not seen it, I would have hoped that Dean would take responsibility for what he did. However what Iâ€™ve seen is (and there are spoilers here, obviously) Only registered users can view hidden text!
Now, based on that, I feel I have good reason to be worried.
Quote:Thanks for the sage advice (and thank you for explaining to me how â€˜episodesâ€™ work. Canâ€™t believe I didnâ€™t know that when one ends another one begins.......). However, we are replying to a â€˜speculationâ €™ article i.e. you see/read and you speculate. I am wary of what Iâ€™ve seen in 7.06 and in the preview for 7.07 because they, to me, are evidence that the show is going in the same direction itâ€™s been going since day one ie canonising Dean for the choices he made, while demonising Sam for the same choices.
I believe I have reason to worry because the show has had ample opportunity to show the audience that SPN is about two main characters who are capable of questionable actions, not just one and last week, once again, they choose not to do that. And while I'm desperately hoping I'll be proved wrong, nothing Iâ€™ve seen in the previews has allayed those fears.
And tell me something again: if she had the chance to explain her actions and their reasons, why the same chance couldn't be given to the pusher and the drunk driver? You know, pushers and criminals too often do what they do to mantain a family. Questionable choice of way of life, I agree, but so were Amy's actions.
In few words: she took for herself the right to decide who had to live and who had to die in order to mantain her son alive. Dean took for himself the right to decide that she had to die in order to mantain humans alive. They did the same choice. So I hardly find SO WRONG what Dean did. Or better put: if he did wrong, so did Amy. She wasn't a poor victim: she was a killer, like Dean himself. A mom killer, but a killer anyway.
Tell me again: is someone killing a notorious criminal in order to have his heart to transplant in his/her dying son justified? Is that not like viewing human beings (at least the "evil" ones... but according what justice? mine? yours? divine law? state law?) just as source of "goods" to use at one's liking? Or is that not like negating the criminal the status of "human being"? What is a human being, anyway? A who should decide what a human being is?
Quote: Yep, take each case on its merits. However, take a look at the people Amy was killing; a drug dealer and a drunk driver. Weâ€™re not talking about a guy who robbed a shop to feed his family. I canâ€™t see any financial reward in getting plastered, sitting into a car and driving home. Plus, if the drug dealer was only selling drugs to maintain his family then why was he looking for an â€˜arrangementâ€™ with the girl who couldnâ€™t pay him? Would that not negate the whole idea that he's only selling drugs in order to â€˜maintain his familyâ€™? Thereâ€™s no economic gain in being a rapist, a murderer or a child abuser. Itâ€™s not a freaking job that you train for, interview for and get paid for and anyone who thinks these are valid career choices should probably spend another hour or two with their career guidance counsellor.
Quote:Thatâ€™s surely up to you to decide. I believe that there are people who, as a result of their choices and actions, give up the right to live. Oh, Iâ€™d love to be noble and say â€˜Oh, every life is valuable yadda yaddaâ€™. Iâ€™m not (and I'm honest enough to admit it). Would I kill a notorious criminal in order to have his/her heart transplanted to someone I loved? In a heartbeat. I would hope that my actions in the past and my reason for doing what I did would be taken into consideration with the Good Lord or whoever is my judge, jury and executioner but if it doesnâ€™t Iâ€™ll pay whatever price there is to pay in this life or the next.
Brynhild, in relation to what constitutes a human, I don't know about you but I consider people who sell death and people who willingly sit behind to wheel of a car blind drunk, to be monsters.
While we are asking and answering questions, can someone help me out with these? How far would you go to save the life of someone you love (be honest)? Do you think Dean was right to kill Amy? Why didn't he kill Jacob? Why hasn't he killed Sam? Do you find it strange that Amy was killed for doing something in 7.03 that Dean did in 6.21; kill to help those they love? Do you think Dean killed Amy because of who she was or what she was?
But Amy wasn't so honest. She did what she had to do, sure, but she wasn't ok on paying the price of that. And should I be in the "judge, jury and executioner" role, sincerely, I would have more than a few doubts about someone so ready to "appeal to my heart". So ready to justify herself with "it was my son, and they were all baddies". Too easy.
Because this is my point: Sam would trust Amy because he had a connection with her, but from the POV of someone not so emotionally involved, someone who didn't know her, never met her and never felt any connection to her, which guarantees were there she wouldn't do it again, given a similar situation? And which guarantees were there she wouldn't do it anyway, if there weren't some baddies at hand? None.
You say she killed her family to save a human? Oh yes. But she didn't kill her mother to save SAm because he was a human: she killed her because Sam was her friend (and maybe she didn't like too much her mommy). Otherwise, why she didn't kill her mother before, when she killed humans for feeding? Sincerely, I wouldn't deem such an action as an example of how much Amy is respecting humans, on the contrary: if something, it showed me how far she would go to protect someone she loves (or likes or finds just plain "nice").
IMO, Amy didn't resolve to kill evil people because she thought they weren't humans and they hadn't the right to live: she resolved to do that because probably none would have investigated too deeply to resolve the case. Just like she didn't feed on corpses' hypophisis because she respected human lives, but just because she didn't want to be hunted.
And what you and others seem to miss, is that Dean didn't kill her because "she was a monster". He killed her not for who, nor for what she was. He killed her for what she did. Because he was sure that, given the right circumstance, she would kill again. Because in his experience everyone, given the right circumstances, can become a killer. Just like himself. Just like Sam (who did become a killer, in S3 and 4, though we - and him too - tend to forget that).
Was Dean right in thinking so? I think yes. Exactly because I know, like I said before, that probably I could go very, very far myself in order to save or protect my beloved ones. And he didn't have any emotional connection to Amy that could lead him to think the contrary, to trust her. So him too, he did what he had to do in order to protect lives he felt responsible for.
Monsters' hunting IS a "dirty work". A hunter has no laws, no rules to address to. No possibility to convict the monsters in some "monster prison" to take them away from among humans without killing them, in a precautionary way, in ambiguous or doubtful cases like this one. No "three degrees of judgement". Not a jury or an advocate to consult. They have necessarily to be "judge, jury and executioner", and have just their instinct and intelligence to guide them, and they have the HUGE responsibility of other humans' lives. Think of them like officers and soldiers in a war in the jungle, separated one from another, in a place where ANYone can be the enemy and they can't trust anyone, but they MUST decide who has to live and who has to die in order to protect their people. I would be very careful in judging them.
Brynhild, it seems that much of this interesting discussion stems from what appears to be two key differences in our core beliefs.
(1) You believe that Amy was a monster with little regard for humans. I think the opposite. I feel she thought quite highly of humans. She put herself at a tremendous disadvantage, and tremendous risk, in order to live as one. She lived in the suburbs, joined the PTA (have you any idea how hard it is to get people to join the PTA??), worked with humans and seemed to put in a tremendous effort to assimilate with them. She was determined to not raise her son in the kitsune way of life. If she didnâ€™t care about humans sheâ€™d be out killing Tom, Dick and Harry. She has superior strength, and from her mother, knows how to live off the grid. Denying what you are, your natural instinct, certainly isnâ€™t easy so why would she want to live as a human unless she likes humans?
(2) You also seem to think that judging people on their past actions and what you feel theyâ€™ll do in the future is enough to condemn them. I donâ€™t. I canâ€™t buy into that whole â€˜Black cat, black kittenâ€™ ethos. I believe in second chances. I believe that each case should be taken on its individual merits, all its merits.
Quote:Just as well Amy wasnâ€™t an Irish kitsune because over here dead criminals are given as much time, consideration, and resources as anyone else! However, if Amyâ€™s criteria for selection of â€˜victimsâ€™ was picking someone whose death wouldnâ€™t be investigated then why didnâ€™t she target the transient? Hard to investigate a disappearance when their disappearance isnâ€™t even noticed. She picked people she considered monsters, possibly to alleviate the guilt of what she was doing ie she knew it was wrong but tried to justify it to herself by only choosing human monsters.
Quote:Yep, a friend who was a human. Theyâ€™re not mutually exclusive. So why didnâ€™t she kill her mother sooner to prevent her from killing humans? Who knows? Fear maybe? It's possible she didnâ€™t have much interaction with humans so could not build a positive opinion of them. Her mother did seem to keep her on a very tight leash. Perhaps the actions of, and time she spent with, Sam (who choose not to kill her despite the fact she was a monster) gave her some insight about humans to stand up for what she thought was right. Maybe because at the time, she was a still a child of 13, 14 (?) she didnâ€™t know what was right and what was wrong. Perhaps, being a kid, she depended on her mother and was afraid to stand up to her. People arenâ€™t born hating, theyâ€™re taught it and itâ€™s only as they get older and are exposed to more that they enter a stage where they can make up their own mind. Perhaps Sam was the catalyst for that.
Quote:In relation to Amy striving to not get caught; why wouldnâ€™t she? If she had been, the price she would have paid would not have been only her own life, but her son, who needed her to ensure his survival. Would it not be rather pointless if she had gone to all those lengths to help Jacob to live, to only then go to the guards, hand herself in, and leave her son in as much, if not more, jeopardy than he was before? If Amy was taken out of the picture then Jacob would have had to (a) kill humans to survive or (b) die, two non-options for Amy. Her justifications might have been â€˜easyâ€™ but that doesnâ€™t make them less valid or less understandable.
In relation to you not begging the courtâ€™s mercy. Really? Never tried to talk your way out of a speeding ticket or parking ticket? Never tried to justify yourself for taking the last chocolate in the box? There are always justifications. Though fair play to you, Brynhild. There arenâ€™t so many people out there who say â€˜I did the crime so Iâ€™ll do the time.â€™ They generally say â€˜I did the crime but this is why I did it...â€™
Quote:Deciding someoneâ€™s death in cold blood would yes, be phenomenally difficult. However, had you the ways and means of preventing a death, and you decided not to do it, would that also not be deciding on someoneâ€™s death? Has Amy chosen to not save Jacob, despite being able to, would that not also be murder?
I trained as a lifeguard. If I saw someone being pushed into the river and I just stood there and let them drown, would my actions not be as reprehensible, and would I not be as responsible for their death, as the person who pushed them into the river in the first place?
Quote:I didnâ€™t miss it, Brynhild. I acknowledged it in an earlier post. However, if Dean killed her for what she did and what he believed she would do again, and if, in his experience everyone has it in them to become a killer, then hasnâ€™t Dean killed everyone? Why didnâ€™t they kill Lucky, or the Starks or Patrick or Gary or Lenore? Why hasnâ€™t Dean killed Sam? Like I said, the world canâ€™t be black and white when it suits and grey when it doesnâ€™t.
Quote:Very true. What guarantees are there that Amy wouldnâ€™t kill again to save her son? None. What guarantees are there that she would kill again? Also none. What guarantees are there that Jacob wonâ€™t kill? None. What guarantees are there that the drug dealer would stop selling drugs that night? None. What guarantees are there that the drink driver wouldnâ€™t drive his car straight into another, killing everyone involved? None.
Someone who didnâ€™t know Sam, who wasnâ€™t so emotionally involved, who didnâ€™t know him, never met him and never felt any connection to him would put him down on the spot, and going by his past actions and what he is theyâ€™d be right to, because what guarantee is there that Sam wonâ€™t revert back to the monster that he is? None. What guarantee is there that Sam is no longer touched by evil? None. What guarantee is there that in his Lucifer vision stage Sam wonâ€™t kill Bobby or Dean or innocent people? None. No guarantee but there is hope. And thatâ€™s what I feel Amy represented to Sam. Hope. Hope that she could get it right where he couldnâ€™t. Hope that if the second chance he gave her would work, then the second chance that he got could also work.
Quote:But by what criteria do they judge who will live and who will die? Itâ€™s not deciding who lives and who dies if they decide everyone who is a monster dies. Thatâ€™s not a choice, thatâ€™s genocide.
Quote:They are not being judged, Brynhild. Having freely admitted Iâ€™d kill to save someone I love, Iâ€™m hardly in a position to judge anyone. Their actions are being questioned, thatâ€™s all.
Quote:Sam was a killer long before that. He was certainly killing in season 1 and 2. Now unfortunately Brynhild, Iâ€™m pretty much numb with shock after seeing 7.07 so could you do me a favour and please refresh me on who Sam killed in Season 3 and Season 4 that makes them worthy of special mention?
Dodger Winslow has a great grasp of these characters. I highly recommend her review of this episode - be sure to read the comment section also as she says more there: dodger-winslow.livejournal.com/280498.html#cutid1