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Recap 


  • Hot dog contest! Cheater hides dog in pocket, is attacked in his car and sucked of fat. Bacon makes everything better says his bumper sticker.
  • Bunker - Dean pulls all nighter, hears of Stillwater death of a man going from 300 to 90 lbs. Dean assures Sam he doesn't break that easy after their confessions of last week.
  • Police station, guy suffered massive organ damage, hovered. Dean eats powdered donut messily. Competitive eater. Even deep fried butter. Slim Jim was in a contest at the time of Wayne's death.
  • Sam and Dean visit Jim. Wayne's rival is eating lettuce in prep for a contest. His old lady is a gypsy. Sam asks to go to the bathroom, where Jim's wife is showering. Picture of Bride in poofy pink. Hex bag? Sam flees. They leave their card with hubby. Putsi bag? She comes to their door to set the record straight--she loved Wayne and was having a years-long affair with him. Her hubby was skinny, and she enjoyed a little "give" sometimes. Pootsi bags are used for blessings, too. Wayne called her Princess Jasmine.
  • Woman exercises to "Lift Us Up Where We Belong," steps on scale to see a disappointing number. She is accosted by the fat-sucking monster, who crowns her with a barbell and sucks her down to a weight that would have made her much happier.
  • Sam and Dean investigate the death and find a suction mark. Changeling? No, she's not a child. Dean doesn't want Sam to do the spa thing; he's weird around girls. The blond Dean questions has a suction mark, too, but she's alive. She went to the Canyon Valley Wellness Spa. They watch an online commercial--guaranteed weight loss results in one week.
  • Sam and Dean go there, claiming to the beautiful male and female married owners to be certified trainers. Dean is fire and brimstone, Sam more gentle in outlining their talents as trainers. They hire Dean to manage in the kitchen, Sam as a trainer. Sam's training yoga, he dated someone bendy. Dean's wearing a hairnet and pushing tofu.
  • A woman goes in for "cupping" with four innocuous glass bulb-like items and falls asleep, comfortable and happy. The pretty brunette monster opens her mouth and out pops a long tongue that attaches itself to the woman as well, a far less innocuous cup, sucking out her life.
  • Kitchen - Dean is starving, but doesn't want rabbit food. Dean spoons glop into cups and steals some.
  • Sam teaches Yoga class!  Orders downward dog for ten minutes, checks everyone for suction.
  • Dean passes out from sampling the pudding.
  • Sam is recognized as Agent Frehley by a girl in a wheelchair, a sheriff who knows them from a previous case. Dean calls Sam on his cell. "Sweet potatoes," he gasps, barely conscious. Frantic, Sam runs to find him, finds him drugged, lying half-conscious against a sack of potatoes. Salty and sweet, the pudding was for the clients, mutters Dean. Sam attacks the guy who made the pudding, demands to know what's in it. When Sam brings him the bottle, Dean recognizes it as roofies and is surprised Sam didn't.
  • The sheriff is thrilled she lost 10 pounds, her husband left her cuz of her weight. She guzzled her pain and wanted to feel pretty again. Sam and Dean are undercover for the murders in town. She has cupping in town. She ate the pudding and tells them who did her treatment.
  • Sam and Dean have been made by the owners! They must get rid of the evidence.
  • Sam finds one of the glass jars.
  • A gun-wielding Dean finds Maritza, the Peruvian fat sucker, about to consume fat from a container in the fridge. When he accuses her of the murders, she explains that her brother, Alonso, has been killing people, not her. She wanted to help people slim down and satisfy her hunger--win-win.
  • Alonso is ordered out by Maritza's husband, who attacks and kills him. Sam finds the body, a bloody hole in his throat.
  • Maritza tearfully explains how she tried to teach her brother "portion control," but it didn't work. Now three people are dead, including her husband. Dean and Sam insist Alonso must die. He's in the basement, she says. They find another dead body down there. Alonso knocks a closet down on Sam, who escapes. They get into a brawl, and Alonso is just about to begin sucking Sam dry when Dean hacks off his ugly tongue, killing him.
  • Psycho killer on the loose is what they tell the sheriff, and Sam objects when Dean wants to kill Maritza--she's a monster. Would he have deserved to die when possessed by Gadreel? Sam asks him candidly. So, one-way ticket to Peru? Dean says, relenting.
  • "I saved your hide in hospital, the church, back there, everywhere, I do the right thing." "That's the problem," says Sam, "Kevin's dead, what is the upside to me being alive. You and me, You saved me for you, not me." "If the situation were reversed," says Dean, "you'd do the same." "No, I wouldn't," insists Sam. Dean is stunned. 
Questions

1. Wow! Do you believe it? Would Sam let Dean die? Really? Is that why he didn't search for him? My mind has been totally blown!

2. I don't know if there's an urban legend about a Peruvian fat sucker, but if one really exists, how man of you want to set up an appointment now?

3.  Last week, Dean was willing to let a huge lot of werewolves live. This week, he gave Sam flak about allowing a woman who clearly had her situation under control and was even doing good in the world to live. Let's see some character continuity, please.

4.  Sam in training gear--yummy. Nuff said. Dean in a hair net. Still gorgeous.

5.  There was a lot of humor in this episode, the opening with the eating contest, the cheater pocketing the hot dog, the weight loss craze with everyone wanting to lose as fast as possible (and wouldn't it be great if you could just get it sucked out that quick and easy?), and Sam being recognized by the sheriff as Agent Frehley. (Odd that it doesn't happen more often.) 

6.  The ending, however, was deadly serious. I think it hurt Dean terribly to hear that Sam wouldn't go to the same extremes as he would to maintain his life. But I wonder, if put to a similar test, WHAT WOULD SAM DO? What do you think, Robin's Ramble readers?

Comments  

rubby
# rubby 2014-02-05 14:43
It does exist. I'm peruvian and was totally thrilled to see this play out as part of an episode. It's the Pistachio legend and they got it pretty right.


just HOW IN HELL CAN SAM SAY SUCH HORRIBLE THING!! poor poor Dean oh god my herat has been destroyed into thousand pieces I am ready to die
rubby
# rubby 2014-02-05 14:43
It does exist. I'm peruvian and was totally thrilled to see this play out as part of an episode. It's the Pistachio legend and they got it pretty right.


just HOW IN HELL CAN SAM SAY SUCH HORRIBLE THING!! poor poor Dean oh god my herat has been destroyed into thousand pieces I am ready to die
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-05 14:48
Robin - Like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent since the beginning of S8 in this regard. Sam would take a bullet for Dean but upsetting the natural order is another thing entirely, especially when you consider the collateral damage in the past when both of them have done this. Sam was kind of harsh at the end, but I think that came from a place of being tired, frustrated, and exasperated when Dean said he'd do the same thing all over again, and was expecting Sam to be grateful for this.

In some comments a few weeks back, I mentioned that maybe the brothers will have to walk in each others shoes; Dean appears to be going down a dark path with the mark of Cain. Just wondering if we'll have a situation where Dean is possessed and Sam has to save him? I don't recall Dean ever having been possessed by an angel or demon before so maybe this would give him a new perspective/und erstanding as to why what he did in 9.01 was so very, very wrong.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-05 14:48
Robin - Like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent since the beginning of S8 in this regard. Sam would take a bullet for Dean but upsetting the natural order is another thing entirely, especially when you consider the collateral damage in the past when both of them have done this. Sam was kind of harsh at the end, but I think that came from a place of being tired, frustrated, and exasperated when Dean said he'd do the same thing all over again, and was expecting Sam to be grateful for this.

In some comments a few weeks back, I mentioned that maybe the brothers will have to walk in each others shoes; Dean appears to be going down a dark path with the mark of Cain. Just wondering if we'll have a situation where Dean is possessed and Sam has to save him? I don't recall Dean ever having been possessed by an angel or demon before so maybe this would give him a new perspective/und erstanding as to why what he did in 9.01 was so very, very wrong.
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2014-02-05 15:02
Quoting njspnfan:

In some comments a few weeks back, I mentioned that maybe the brothers will have to walk in each others shoes; Dean appears to be going down a dark path with the mark of Cain. Just wondering if we'll have a situation where Dean is possessed and Sam has to save him? .


That's my thought on how it'll play out, some form of that. I think the show is setting up for something of that making. And it would make sense. So often we've had Dean as the savior, so we know what he'll do, how far he'll go...but this all growed up/post trial/post angel possessed version of Sam, Sam, we just don't know. It's tough to see the boys at odds, but they're getting into the meat of the hell that has become their lives.

Both of them look dog tired. Dean is crashing. Sam just looks sad. They look completely like the parts they are playing. Hard to watch, but that last scene was beautifully played by Jared and Jensen.

Hey Robin, you forgot "Fish Taco?" in your recap. LOL!
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2014-02-05 15:02
Quote:

In some comments a few weeks back, I mentioned that maybe the brothers will have to walk in each others shoes; Dean appears to be going down a dark path with the mark of Cain. Just wondering if we'll have a situation where Dean is possessed and Sam has to save him? .
That's my thought on how it'll play out, some form of that. I think the show is setting up for something of that making. And it would make sense. So often we've had Dean as the savior, so we know what he'll do, how far he'll go...but this all growed up/post trial/post angel possessed version of Sam, Sam, we just don't know. It's tough to see the boys at odds, but they're getting into the meat of the hell that has become their lives.

Both of them look dog tired. Dean is crashing. Sam just looks sad. They look completely like the parts they are playing. Hard to watch, but that last scene was beautifully played by Jared and Jensen.

Hey Robin, you forgot "Fish Taco?" in your recap. LOL!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-05 15:05
Sam never said that he would let Dean die no matter what. What he said was if the situation was reversed he never do to Dean what Dean did to him. If Dean was ready to die and didn't want to be brought back especially if it meant that other people would get hurt Sam would honor Dean's wishes. Sam of all people knows what it means to have no control over your body as you helplessly watch yourself kill innocent people He would never want to cause Dean that kind of pain.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2014-02-05 15:05
Sam never said that he would let Dean die no matter what. What he said was if the situation was reversed he never do to Dean what Dean did to him. If Dean was ready to die and didn't want to be brought back especially if it meant that other people would get hurt Sam would honor Dean's wishes. Sam of all people knows what it means to have no control over your body as you helplessly watch yourself kill innocent people He would never want to cause Dean that kind of pain.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2014-02-05 15:16
Hey Robin, nice recap with two corrections that I see. 1.) Sam told them to hold for 5 minutes then changed it to 30 seconds after they complained. 2.) Dean was not a manager in the kitchen just an employee.

This one has me going. My take is I don't believe that Sam meant that he would let Dean die, I think it goes deeper than that in which I think he meant he would have went along with Dean's wishes to die. He would not have taken that choice away from Dean since it was Dean's choice to make. I don't think it had anything to do with Sam not loving or caring for Dean one iota. Dean couldn't do that for Sam. I believe in that scene, Dean on the other hand, what he heard was Sam didn't love him as much to have saved him in those similar situations had the tables been turned. One can only hope that after this 3-week break that they continue to have more dialog on this and eventually get some of that brotherly camaraderie back.

Sam said "So" in the church meaning he didn't care if he died as long as the gates of Hell were slammed shut for good. He was ready to die in the hospital because he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.

Dean has always, since age 4, been Sam's protector and that is not something one just outgrows. He will always do whatever he can to save Sam and yes probably selfishly because he doesn't want to do this alone, which he has said since Season 1. It makes me remember a conversation that Sam and Bobby had in Purgatory where there was mention about a verbal agreement to "not look for each other" that they both ignored time after time. Dean's mental make-up will not allow him to just let Sam "go".

Sam has always been the level-headed one. The one that weighs all aspects of an action before reacting whereas Dean is a shoot from the hip, in the moment reactor.

Either way it was meant (and only the writers know this for sure) I have to say again that the acting from Jared and Jensen just grabs the heartstrings week after week. After viewing that ending several times, I found myself wondering how hard that scene must have been for the two of them knowing how close they are off screen. Another bang up job from the cast, crew ,and all involved in an amazing episode.
Trucklady
# Trucklady 2014-02-05 15:16
Hey Robin, nice recap with two corrections that I see. 1.) Sam told them to hold for 5 minutes then changed it to 30 seconds after they complained. 2.) Dean was not a manager in the kitchen just an employee.

This one has me going. My take is I don't believe that Sam meant that he would let Dean die, I think it goes deeper than that in which I think he meant he would have went along with Dean's wishes to die. He would not have taken that choice away from Dean since it was Dean's choice to make. I don't think it had anything to do with Sam not loving or caring for Dean one iota. Dean couldn't do that for Sam. I believe in that scene, Dean on the other hand, what he heard was Sam didn't love him as much to have saved him in those similar situations had the tables been turned. One can only hope that after this 3-week break that they continue to have more dialog on this and eventually get some of that brotherly camaraderie back.

Sam said "So" in the church meaning he didn't care if he died as long as the gates of Hell were slammed shut for good. He was ready to die in the hospital because he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.

Dean has always, since age 4, been Sam's protector and that is not something one just outgrows. He will always do whatever he can to save Sam and yes probably selfishly because he doesn't want to do this alone, which he has said since Season 1. It makes me remember a conversation that Sam and Bobby had in Purgatory where there was mention about a verbal agreement to "not look for each other" that they both ignored time after time. Dean's mental make-up will not allow him to just let Sam "go".

Sam has always been the level-headed one. The one that weighs all aspects of an action before reacting whereas Dean is a shoot from the hip, in the moment reactor.

Either way it was meant (and only the writers know this for sure) I have to say again that the acting from Jared and Jensen just grabs the heartstrings week after week. After viewing that ending several times, I found myself wondering how hard that scene must have been for the two of them knowing how close they are off screen. Another bang up job from the cast, crew ,and all involved in an amazing episode.
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-05 15:17
Thanks for rambling at us, Robin. This was a good MOTW story. Some funny moments too - like the call back to Dean in The Kids are All Right - when he told Sam about bendy Lisa and expressed concern that if she was Gumby that made him Pokey. Too funny! Not a huge surprise that Phil Sgriccia directed that one too - we definitely need him back more. I also laughed at Dean telling Sam he was awkward with women so he could interview that pretty girl. Obvious that neither brother believes that since Sam does just fine in that area, but brotherly competition and teasing instead. I half expected them to play rock, paper, scissors to settle it, but instead Dean threw out a shot referring to Sam's not brothers line and Sam just let him win this one.
Questions:
1. I refuse to believe Sam would let Dean die - unless he thought living would hurt his brother more than dying - which is what I suspect he meant - that this hurt him more. Either way, I am SO ready for the snotty to be over and the brothers to be brothers.
2. Sign me up!
3. Dean's line from last week - what's wrong is right, etc - I did not see this as character discontinuity. I saw it as both brothers still dealing with hunting having shades of gray and trying to figure out when to give a pass. And, I think Dean considers Garth family so that was an easier call for him.
4. Jared's arms. Seriously. Wow.
5. Not surprising the sheriff recognized him - she had just spoken with him a couple days before about the competitive eater death - when she and Dean bonded over donuts. Would have been more surprising if she did not.
6. In my world, Sam is mad but would still do anything for his brother. He will not tell him that right now because he needs to keep hurting him verbally at the moment, but Dean is his family, he will do anything for him, and would die to save him. I believe we will get there - and want to get there FAST!

2 weeks until Captives?
Grace232
# Grace232 2014-02-05 15:17
Thanks for rambling at us, Robin. This was a good MOTW story. Some funny moments too - like the call back to Dean in The Kids are All Right - when he told Sam about bendy Lisa and expressed concern that if she was Gumby that made him Pokey. Too funny! Not a huge surprise that Phil Sgriccia directed that one too - we definitely need him back more. I also laughed at Dean telling Sam he was awkward with women so he could interview that pretty girl. Obvious that neither brother believes that since Sam does just fine in that area, but brotherly competition and teasing instead. I half expected them to play rock, paper, scissors to settle it, but instead Dean threw out a shot referring to Sam's not brothers line and Sam just let him win this one.
Questions:
1. I refuse to believe Sam would let Dean die - unless he thought living would hurt his brother more than dying - which is what I suspect he meant - that this hurt him more. Either way, I am SO ready for the snotty to be over and the brothers to be brothers.
2. Sign me up!
3. Dean's line from last week - what's wrong is right, etc - I did not see this as character discontinuity. I saw it as both brothers still dealing with hunting having shades of gray and trying to figure out when to give a pass. And, I think Dean considers Garth family so that was an easier call for him.
4. Jared's arms. Seriously. Wow.
5. Not surprising the sheriff recognized him - she had just spoken with him a couple days before about the competitive eater death - when she and Dean bonded over donuts. Would have been more surprising if she did not.
6. In my world, Sam is mad but would still do anything for his brother. He will not tell him that right now because he needs to keep hurting him verbally at the moment, but Dean is his family, he will do anything for him, and would die to save him. I believe we will get there - and want to get there FAST!

2 weeks until Captives?
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-05 15:19
1. Wow! Do you believe it? Would Sam let Dean die? Really? Is that why he didn't search for him? My mind has been totally blown! Sam said in the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES meaning Dean has said he's ready to go and the only way to save him is to violate his body by putting a supernatural creature in him, then YES, Sam will respect Dean enough to do what Dean has asked. Really we went through this in season three. Sam found Doc Benton Zombie Frankenstein. Doc Benton had a magic serum and replaced his parts as they degraded. Sam wanted to give Dean the serum and become Zombies together to keep Dean alive. Dean said no, that was a line he wouldn't cross and Sam went along with it. At the time a fair amount of fandom was sure that Sam even thinking about using such awful means to save Dean meant he was a terrible person. Now when Dean uses similarly awful means he's a loving brother and Sam is a horrible person if he lets Dean decide on how he wants to stay alive.

2. I don't know if there's an urban legend about a Peruvian fat sucker, but if one really exists, how man of you want to set up an appointment now? I have to admit that my first thought was if this really existed they would be making a boat load of money. Well they would be classified as non-human and someone would cage them and use them in weight loss, but someone would be making a boatload of money. Get them supervised so they don't go overboard, take too much fat and kill people and it's completely win/win.

3. Last week, Dean was willing to let a huge lot of werewolves live. This week, he gave Sam flak about allowing a woman who clearly had her situation under control and was even doing good in the world to live. Let's see some character continuity, please. I think Dean bases a lot of his choices on personal involvement. He saw Lenore refuse to drink and she had let Sam live. Benny was his friend. He got Kate's entire sad story of how she became a werewolf and it touched him, and with him letting Benny go he was invested in proving that monsters can be good. He knows Garth so giving Garth's family a pass works. I don't find it that inconsistent, but then it is very like Sam and Benny, Sam gives chances to those he personally has met and thinks he can judge. In this case, Dean didn't feel for the woman, so he went with the basis of hunting, kill the monster.

4. Sam in training gear--yummy. Nuff said. Dean in a hair net. Still gorgeous. Yep

6. The ending, however, was deadly serious. I think it hurt Dean terribly to hear that Sam wouldn't go to the same extremes as he would to maintain his life. But I wonder, if put to a similar test, WHAT WOULD SAM DO? What do you think, Robin's Ramble readers? Having already given my Doc Benton spiel, I think Sam would do anything natural to save Dean. I think he would throw himself in front of a train, or take a bullet. I think he would look for doctor's or specialists if Dean became ill. I don't think he would sell his soul, trust an angel other than Castiel to cure Dean, make a deal with Crowley, ask Death of a take backsie, find another faith healer that will kill someone to save Dean or dig up Doc Benton and his formula. I think Sam learned from all the times they couldn't let go. I think Sam trusts that Dean has earned peace and not Hell and that he would let the natural order take over. There is a chance that if Sam could trade his life for Dean's that Sam would do that, but truly disrupting the natural order I think (hope) Sam has learned better.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-05 15:19
1. Wow! Do you believe it? Would Sam let Dean die? Really? Is that why he didn't search for him? My mind has been totally blown! Sam said in the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES meaning Dean has said he's ready to go and the only way to save him is to violate his body by putting a supernatural creature in him, then YES, Sam will respect Dean enough to do what Dean has asked. Really we went through this in season three. Sam found Doc Benton Zombie Frankenstein. Doc Benton had a magic serum and replaced his parts as they degraded. Sam wanted to give Dean the serum and become Zombies together to keep Dean alive. Dean said no, that was a line he wouldn't cross and Sam went along with it. At the time a fair amount of fandom was sure that Sam even thinking about using such awful means to save Dean meant he was a terrible person. Now when Dean uses similarly awful means he's a loving brother and Sam is a horrible person if he lets Dean decide on how he wants to stay alive.

2. I don't know if there's an urban legend about a Peruvian fat sucker, but if one really exists, how man of you want to set up an appointment now? I have to admit that my first thought was if this really existed they would be making a boat load of money. Well they would be classified as non-human and someone would cage them and use them in weight loss, but someone would be making a boatload of money. Get them supervised so they don't go overboard, take too much fat and kill people and it's completely win/win.

3. Last week, Dean was willing to let a huge lot of werewolves live. This week, he gave Sam flak about allowing a woman who clearly had her situation under control and was even doing good in the world to live. Let's see some character continuity, please. I think Dean bases a lot of his choices on personal involvement. He saw Lenore refuse to drink and she had let Sam live. Benny was his friend. He got Kate's entire sad story of how she became a werewolf and it touched him, and with him letting Benny go he was invested in proving that monsters can be good. He knows Garth so giving Garth's family a pass works. I don't find it that inconsistent, but then it is very like Sam and Benny, Sam gives chances to those he personally has met and thinks he can judge. In this case, Dean didn't feel for the woman, so he went with the basis of hunting, kill the monster.

4. Sam in training gear--yummy. Nuff said. Dean in a hair net. Still gorgeous. Yep

6. The ending, however, was deadly serious. I think it hurt Dean terribly to hear that Sam wouldn't go to the same extremes as he would to maintain his life. But I wonder, if put to a similar test, WHAT WOULD SAM DO? What do you think, Robin's Ramble readers? Having already given my Doc Benton spiel, I think Sam would do anything natural to save Dean. I think he would throw himself in front of a train, or take a bullet. I think he would look for doctor's or specialists if Dean became ill. I don't think he would sell his soul, trust an angel other than Castiel to cure Dean, make a deal with Crowley, ask Death of a take backsie, find another faith healer that will kill someone to save Dean or dig up Doc Benton and his formula. I think Sam learned from all the times they couldn't let go. I think Sam trusts that Dean has earned peace and not Hell and that he would let the natural order take over. There is a chance that if Sam could trade his life for Dean's that Sam would do that, but truly disrupting the natural order I think (hope) Sam has learned better.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-05 15:25
Quote:
e he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.
I have to note that when Sam was at his most desperate to save Dean after Dean was killed by the Hell Hounds, that Dean wasn't just dead, he was in Hell and suffering and Sam was alive because Dean was being tortured. That is a real difference from just being dead. I don't know if Sam would have used Roy the faith healer in Faith if he knew someone would die for Dean to live. I tend to think not because that is pretty amoral and Sam was not there in season one. If Dean had just been dead and not being turned into a demon (which is what Sam believed was happening) he may have been able to let go. Even The Trickster/Gabri el emphasized that Dean was "doing the Hellfire Rumba" in Mystery Spot, so there was more going on than just Dean's dead.
percysowner
# percysowner 2014-02-05 15:25
Quote:
e he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.
I have to note that when Sam was at his most desperate to save Dean after Dean was killed by the Hell Hounds, that Dean wasn't just dead, he was in Hell and suffering and Sam was alive because Dean was being tortured. That is a real difference from just being dead. I don't know if Sam would have used Roy the faith healer in Faith if he knew someone would die for Dean to live. I tend to think not because that is pretty amoral and Sam was not there in season one. If Dean had just been dead and not being turned into a demon (which is what Sam believed was happening) he may have been able to let go. Even The Trickster/Gabri el emphasized that Dean was "doing the Hellfire Rumba" in Mystery Spot, so there was more going on than just Dean's dead.
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:00
[quote name="rubby"]It does exist. I'm peruvian and was totally thrilled to see this play out as part of an episode. It's the Pistachio legend and they got it pretty right.

That just tickles me! I'm so glad to hear it's a real legend. I found Maritza a fascinating MOTW, even though she really wasn't monstrous.

just HOW IN HELL CAN SAM SAY SUCH HORRIBLE THING!! poor poor Dean oh god my herat has been destroyed into thousand pieces I am ready to die.

Please don't be upset with Sam! There are many good explanations all over the net for what happened between the brothers, and if you read them (see the Fangasm article), you will feel much better.

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:00
It does exist. I'm peruvian and was totally thrilled to see this play out as part of an episode. It's the Pistachio legend and they got it pretty right.

That just tickles me! I'm so glad to hear it's a real legend. I found Maritza a fascinating MOTW, even though she really wasn't monstrous.

just HOW IN HELL CAN SAM SAY SUCH HORRIBLE THING!! poor poor Dean oh god my herat has been destroyed into thousand pieces I am ready to die.

Please don't be upset with Sam! There are many good explanations all over the net for what happened between the brothers, and if you read them (see the Fangasm article), you will feel much better.

Love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:08
Quoting njspnfan:
Robin - Like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent since the beginning of S8 in this regard. Sam would take a bullet for Dean but upsetting the natural order is another thing entirely, especially when you consider the collateral damage in the past when both of them have done this. Sam was kind of harsh at the end, but I think that came from a place of being tired, frustrated, and exasperated when Dean said he'd do the same thing all over again, and was expecting Sam to be grateful for this.

I agree! It must frustrate Sam that Dean doesn't understand where he's coming from after all this time and the number of incidents in which Sam has been possessed and had free will taken away from him. Meg, Lucifer, Gadreel--no wonder Sam is fed up!

In some comments a few weeks back, I mentioned that maybe the brothers will have to walk in each others shoes; Dean appears to be going down a dark path with the mark of Cain. Just wondering if we'll have a situation where Dean is possessed and Sam has to save him? I don't recall Dean ever having been possessed by an angel or demon before so maybe this would give him a new perspective/understanding as to why what he did in 9.01 was so very, very wrong.


I think Sam is going to be put to the very test that has him up in arms against Dean--his brother will order him to let him die, but Sam will refuse. I can't wait to see it happen!

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:08
Quote:
Robin - Like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent since the beginning of S8 in this regard. Sam would take a bullet for Dean but upsetting the natural order is another thing entirely, especially when you consider the collateral damage in the past when both of them have done this. Sam was kind of harsh at the end, but I think that came from a place of being tired, frustrated, and exasperated when Dean said he'd do the same thing all over again, and was expecting Sam to be grateful for this.

I agree! It must frustrate Sam that Dean doesn't understand where he's coming from after all this time and the number of incidents in which Sam has been possessed and had free will taken away from him. Meg, Lucifer, Gadreel--no wonder Sam is fed up!

In some comments a few weeks back, I mentioned that maybe the brothers will have to walk in each others shoes; Dean appears to be going down a dark path with the mark of Cain. Just wondering if we'll have a situation where Dean is possessed and Sam has to save him? I don't recall Dean ever having been possessed by an angel or demon before so maybe this would give him a new perspective/understanding as to why what he did in 9.01 was so very, very wrong.
I think Sam is going to be put to the very test that has him up in arms against Dean--his brother will order him to let him die, but Sam will refuse. I can't wait to see it happen!

Love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:13
That's my thought on how it'll play out, some form of that. I think the show is setting up for something of that making. And it would make sense. So often we've had Dean as the savior, so we know what he'll do, how far he'll go...but this all growed up/post trial/post angel possessed version of Sam, Sam, we just don't know. It's tough to see the boys at odds, but they're getting into the meat of the hell that has become their lives.

I agree with you. Sam has saved Dean before, but not on a grand scale. This should be GOOD!

Both of them look dog tired. Dean is crashing. Sam just looks sad. They look completely like the parts they are playing. Hard to watch, but that last scene was beautifully played by Jared and Jensen.

In real life, they're new fathers, LOL! That exhaustion is real!

Hey Robin, you forgot "Fish Taco?" in your recap. LOL! Honestly? I didn't hear that. Thank you for bringing it up so I can laugh now; it was very funny.

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:13
That's my thought on how it'll play out, some form of that. I think the show is setting up for something of that making. And it would make sense. So often we've had Dean as the savior, so we know what he'll do, how far he'll go...but this all growed up/post trial/post angel possessed version of Sam, Sam, we just don't know. It's tough to see the boys at odds, but they're getting into the meat of the hell that has become their lives.

I agree with you. Sam has saved Dean before, but not on a grand scale. This should be GOOD!

Both of them look dog tired. Dean is crashing. Sam just looks sad. They look completely like the parts they are playing. Hard to watch, but that last scene was beautifully played by Jared and Jensen.

In real life, they're new fathers, LOL! That exhaustion is real!

Hey Robin, you forgot "Fish Taco?" in your recap. LOL! Honestly? I didn't hear that. Thank you for bringing it up so I can laugh now; it was very funny.

Love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:16
Quoting cheryl42:
Sam never said that he would let Dean die no matter what. What he said was if the situation was reversed he never do to Dean what Dean did to him. If Dean was ready to die and didn't want to be brought back especially if it meant that other people would get hurt Sam would honor Dean's wishes. Sam of all people knows what it means to have no control over your body as you helplessly watch yourself kill innocent people He would never want to cause Dean that kind of pain.


Thank you, Cheryl! This is what I keep telling fans who insist Sam said he would let Dean die. That is not so, and you said the truth very well here.

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:16
Quote:
Sam never said that he would let Dean die no matter what. What he said was if the situation was reversed he never do to Dean what Dean did to him. If Dean was ready to die and didn't want to be brought back especially if it meant that other people would get hurt Sam would honor Dean's wishes. Sam of all people knows what it means to have no control over your body as you helplessly watch yourself kill innocent people He would never want to cause Dean that kind of pain.
Thank you, Cheryl! This is what I keep telling fans who insist Sam said he would let Dean die. That is not so, and you said the truth very well here.

Love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:24
Quoting Trucklady:
Hey Robin, nice recap with two corrections that I see. 1.) Sam told them to hold for 5 minutes then changed it to 30 seconds after they complained. 2.) Dean was not a manager in the kitchen just an employee.

You are correct--I meant to change the 5 mins. to 30 secs, but forgot. I thought they mentioned mgmt. to Dean first.

This one has me going. My take is I don't believe that Sam meant that he would let Dean die, I think it goes deeper than that in which I think he meant he would have went along with Dean's wishes to die. He would not have taken that choice away from Dean since it was Dean's choice to make. I don't think it had anything to do with Sam not loving or caring for Dean one iota. Dean couldn't do that for Sam. I believe in that scene, Dean on the other hand, what he heard was Sam didn't love him as much to have saved him in those similar situations had the tables been turned. One can only hope that after this 3-week break that they continue to have more dialog on this and eventually get some of that brotherly camaraderie back.

I know Sam didn't mean he would let Dean die, just that if their situations were the same, vis a vis possession, he would not make the same choice for Dean that Dean made for him.

Sam said "So" in the church meaning he didn't care if he died as long as the gates of Hell were slammed shut for good. He was ready to die in the hospital because he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.

I am a bi-bro Winchester gal, too.

Dean has always, since age 4, been Sam's protector and that is not something one just outgrows. He will always do whatever he can to save Sam and yes probably selfishly because he doesn't want to do this alone, which he has said since Season 1. It makes me remember a conversation that Sam and Bobby had in Purgatory where there was mention about a verbal agreement to "not look for each other" that they both ignored time after time. Dean's mental make-up will not allow him to just let Sam "go".

Exactly. When John handed baby Sam to 4-year-old Dean, they were inextricably twined, with Dean forever responsible for Sam's life.

Sam has always been the level-headed one. The one that weighs all aspects of an action before reacting whereas Dean is a shoot from the hip, in the moment reactor.

True!

Either way it was meant (and only the writers know this for sure) I have to say again that the acting from Jared and Jensen just grabs the heartstrings week after week. After viewing that ending several times, I found myself wondering how hard that scene must have been for the two of them knowing how close they are off screen. Another bang up job from the cast, crew ,and all involved in an amazing episode.


You're right. Jensen and Jared have become consummate actors, and I'm so proud of both of them!

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:24
Quote:
Hey Robin, nice recap with two corrections that I see. 1.) Sam told them to hold for 5 minutes then changed it to 30 seconds after they complained. 2.) Dean was not a manager in the kitchen just an employee.

You are correct--I meant to change the 5 mins. to 30 secs, but forgot. I thought they mentioned mgmt. to Dean first.

This one has me going. My take is I don't believe that Sam meant that he would let Dean die, I think it goes deeper than that in which I think he meant he would have went along with Dean's wishes to die. He would not have taken that choice away from Dean since it was Dean's choice to make. I don't think it had anything to do with Sam not loving or caring for Dean one iota. Dean couldn't do that for Sam. I believe in that scene, Dean on the other hand, what he heard was Sam didn't love him as much to have saved him in those similar situations had the tables been turned. One can only hope that after this 3-week break that they continue to have more dialog on this and eventually get some of that brotherly camaraderie back.

I know Sam didn't mean he would let Dean die, just that if their situations were the same, vis a vis possession, he would not make the same choice for Dean that Dean made for him.

Sam said "So" in the church meaning he didn't care if he died as long as the gates of Hell were slammed shut for good. He was ready to die in the hospital because he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.

I am a bi-bro Winchester gal, too.

Dean has always, since age 4, been Sam's protector and that is not something one just outgrows. He will always do whatever he can to save Sam and yes probably selfishly because he doesn't want to do this alone, which he has said since Season 1. It makes me remember a conversation that Sam and Bobby had in Purgatory where there was mention about a verbal agreement to "not look for each other" that they both ignored time after time. Dean's mental make-up will not allow him to just let Sam "go".

Exactly. When John handed baby Sam to 4-year-old Dean, they were inextricably twined, with Dean forever responsible for Sam's life.

Sam has always been the level-headed one. The one that weighs all aspects of an action before reacting whereas Dean is a shoot from the hip, in the moment reactor.

True!

Either way it was meant (and only the writers know this for sure) I have to say again that the acting from Jared and Jensen just grabs the heartstrings week after week. After viewing that ending several times, I found myself wondering how hard that scene must have been for the two of them knowing how close they are off screen. Another bang up job from the cast, crew ,and all involved in an amazing episode.
You're right. Jensen and Jared have become consummate actors, and I'm so proud of both of them!

Love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:34
[quote name="Grace232" ]Thanks for rambling at us, Robin.

My pleasure--thank s for commenting. I love hearing from all of you.

This was a good MOTW story. Some funny moments too - like the call back to Dean in The Kids are All Right - when he told Sam about bendy Lisa and expressed concern that if she was Gumby that made him Pokey. Too funny! Not a huge surprise that Phil Sgriccia directed that one too - we definitely need him back more. I also laughed at Dean telling Sam he was awkward with women so he could interview that pretty girl. Obvious that neither brother believes that since Sam does just fine in that area, but brotherly competition and teasing instead. I half expected them to play rock, paper, scissors to settle it, but instead Dean threw out a shot referring to Sam's not brothers line and Sam just let him win this one.

I enjoyed the humor, which was sorely needed in this otherwise somber ep. RPS would have been fun. Is it me, or is Sam starting to sound as sardonic as Crowley? Maybe when that demon bit him. . .? Is the King of Hell trying to split up our brothers?

Questions:
1. I refuse to believe Sam would let Dean die - unless he thought living would hurt his brother more than dying - which is what I suspect he meant - that this hurt him more. Either way, I am SO ready for the snotty to be over and the brothers to be brothers.

We all are, but they need to learn their lessons first.

2. Sign me up!

Me, too, lol!

3. Dean's line from last week - what's wrong is right, etc - I did not see this as character discontinuity. I saw it as both brothers still dealing with hunting having shades of gray and trying to figure out when to give a pass. And, I think Dean considers Garth family so that was an easier call for him.

You're right. Garth was family, which made a big difference. But Maritza wasn't killing people; didn't that make a difference, too?

4. Jared's arms. Seriously. Wow.

Yes, yummy!

5. Not surprising the sheriff recognized him - she had just spoken with him a couple days before about the competitive eater death - when she and Dean bonded over donuts. Would have been more surprising if she did not.

True, but she looked different out of uniform!

6. In my world, Sam is mad but would still do anything for his brother. He will not tell him that right now because he needs to keep hurting him verbally at the moment, but Dean is his family, he will do anything for him, and would die to save him. I believe we will get there - and want to get there FAST!

You are right.

2 weeks until Captives?[/quote

Too long for me! Damn Hellatus!

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:34
Thanks for rambling at us, Robin.

My pleasure--thank s for commenting. I love hearing from all of you.

This was a good MOTW story. Some funny moments too - like the call back to Dean in The Kids are All Right - when he told Sam about bendy Lisa and expressed concern that if she was Gumby that made him Pokey. Too funny! Not a huge surprise that Phil Sgriccia directed that one too - we definitely need him back more. I also laughed at Dean telling Sam he was awkward with women so he could interview that pretty girl. Obvious that neither brother believes that since Sam does just fine in that area, but brotherly competition and teasing instead. I half expected them to play rock, paper, scissors to settle it, but instead Dean threw out a shot referring to Sam's not brothers line and Sam just let him win this one.

I enjoyed the humor, which was sorely needed in this otherwise somber ep. RPS would have been fun. Is it me, or is Sam starting to sound as sardonic as Crowley? Maybe when that demon bit him. . .? Is the King of Hell trying to split up our brothers?

Questions:
1. I refuse to believe Sam would let Dean die - unless he thought living would hurt his brother more than dying - which is what I suspect he meant - that this hurt him more. Either way, I am SO ready for the snotty to be over and the brothers to be brothers.

We all are, but they need to learn their lessons first.

2. Sign me up!

Me, too, lol!

3. Dean's line from last week - what's wrong is right, etc - I did not see this as character discontinuity. I saw it as both brothers still dealing with hunting having shades of gray and trying to figure out when to give a pass. And, I think Dean considers Garth family so that was an easier call for him.

You're right. Garth was family, which made a big difference. But Maritza wasn't killing people; didn't that make a difference, too?

4. Jared's arms. Seriously. Wow.

Yes, yummy!

5. Not surprising the sheriff recognized him - she had just spoken with him a couple days before about the competitive eater death - when she and Dean bonded over donuts. Would have been more surprising if she did not.

True, but she looked different out of uniform!

6. In my world, Sam is mad but would still do anything for his brother. He will not tell him that right now because he needs to keep hurting him verbally at the moment, but Dean is his family, he will do anything for him, and would die to save him. I believe we will get there - and want to get there FAST!

You are right.

2 weeks until Captives?[/quote

Too long for me! Damn Hellatus!

Love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:43
Quoting percysowner:
1. Wow! Do you believe it? Would Sam let Dean die? Really? Is that why he didn't search for him? My mind has been totally blown! Sam said in the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES meaning Dean has said he's ready to go and the only way to save him is to violate his body by putting a supernatural creature in him, then YES, Sam will respect Dean enough to do what Dean has asked. Really we went through this in season three. Sam found Doc Benton Zombie Frankenstein. Doc Benton had a magic serum and replaced his parts as they degraded. Sam wanted to give Dean the serum and become Zombies together to keep Dean alive. Dean said no, that was a line he wouldn't cross and Sam went along with it. At the time a fair amount of fandom was sure that Sam even thinking about using such awful means to save Dean meant he was a terrible person. Now when Dean uses similarly awful means he's a loving brother and Sam is a horrible person if he lets Dean decide on how he wants to stay alive.

Well, some fandom lets Dean slide in areas where they string up Sam. It's been that way forever. Others let Sam slide in areas where they string Dean up. It all depends on your POV. Me? I love both brothers and consider them equally flawed and lovable.

2. I don't know if there's an urban legend about a Peruvian fat sucker, but if one really exists, how man of you want to set up an appointment now? I have to admit that my first thought was if this really existed they would be making a boat load of money. Well they would be classified as non-human and someone would cage them and use them in weight loss, but someone would be making a boatload of money. Get them supervised so they don't go overboard, take too much fat and kill people and it's completely win/win.

Seriously! I would go to one in a heartbeat!

3. Last week, Dean was willing to let a huge lot of werewolves live. This week, he gave Sam flak about allowing a woman who clearly had her situation under control and was even doing good in the world to live. Let's see some character continuity, please. I think Dean bases a lot of his choices on personal involvement. He saw Lenore refuse to drink and she had let Sam live. Benny was his friend. He got Kate's entire sad story of how she became a werewolf and it touched him, and with him letting Benny go he was invested in proving that monsters can be good. He knows Garth so giving Garth's family a pass works. I don't find it that inconsistent, but then it is very like Sam and Benny, Sam gives chances to those he personally has met and thinks he can judge. In this case, Dean didn't feel for the woman, so he went with the basis of hunting, kill the monster.

You've made a valid case. They base it on monsters they know better.

4. Sam in training gear--yummy. Nuff said. Dean in a hair net. Still gorgeous. Yep

Amen!

6. The ending, however, was deadly serious. I think it hurt Dean terribly to hear that Sam wouldn't go to the same extremes as he would to maintain his life. But I wonder, if put to a similar test, WHAT WOULD SAM DO? What do you think, Robin's Ramble readers? Having already given my Doc Benton spiel, I think Sam would do anything natural to save Dean. I think he would throw himself in front of a train, or take a bullet. I think he would look for doctor's or specialists if Dean became ill. I don't think he would sell his soul, trust an angel other than Castiel to cure Dean, make a deal with Crowley, ask Death of a take backsie, find another faith healer that will kill someone to save Dean or dig up Doc Benton and his formula. I think Sam learned from all the times they couldn't let go. I think Sam trusts that Dean has earned peace and not Hell and that he would let the natural order take over. There is a chance that if Sam could trade his life for Dean's that Sam would do that, but truly disrupting the natural order I think (hope) Sam has learned better.


I think we're going to find out soon enough just how far Sam will go before this season is over, and we might just be shocked at the result.

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:43
Quote:
1. Wow! Do you believe it? Would Sam let Dean die? Really? Is that why he didn't search for him? My mind has been totally blown! Sam said in the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES meaning Dean has said he's ready to go and the only way to save him is to violate his body by putting a supernatural creature in him, then YES, Sam will respect Dean enough to do what Dean has asked. Really we went through this in season three. Sam found Doc Benton Zombie Frankenstein. Doc Benton had a magic serum and replaced his parts as they degraded. Sam wanted to give Dean the serum and become Zombies together to keep Dean alive. Dean said no, that was a line he wouldn't cross and Sam went along with it. At the time a fair amount of fandom was sure that Sam even thinking about using such awful means to save Dean meant he was a terrible person. Now when Dean uses similarly awful means he's a loving brother and Sam is a horrible person if he lets Dean decide on how he wants to stay alive.

Well, some fandom lets Dean slide in areas where they string up Sam. It's been that way forever. Others let Sam slide in areas where they string Dean up. It all depends on your POV. Me? I love both brothers and consider them equally flawed and lovable.

2. I don't know if there's an urban legend about a Peruvian fat sucker, but if one really exists, how man of you want to set up an appointment now? I have to admit that my first thought was if this really existed they would be making a boat load of money. Well they would be classified as non-human and someone would cage them and use them in weight loss, but someone would be making a boatload of money. Get them supervised so they don't go overboard, take too much fat and kill people and it's completely win/win.

Seriously! I would go to one in a heartbeat!

3. Last week, Dean was willing to let a huge lot of werewolves live. This week, he gave Sam flak about allowing a woman who clearly had her situation under control and was even doing good in the world to live. Let's see some character continuity, please. I think Dean bases a lot of his choices on personal involvement. He saw Lenore refuse to drink and she had let Sam live. Benny was his friend. He got Kate's entire sad story of how she became a werewolf and it touched him, and with him letting Benny go he was invested in proving that monsters can be good. He knows Garth so giving Garth's family a pass works. I don't find it that inconsistent, but then it is very like Sam and Benny, Sam gives chances to those he personally has met and thinks he can judge. In this case, Dean didn't feel for the woman, so he went with the basis of hunting, kill the monster.

You've made a valid case. They base it on monsters they know better.

4. Sam in training gear--yummy. Nuff said. Dean in a hair net. Still gorgeous. Yep

Amen!

6. The ending, however, was deadly serious. I think it hurt Dean terribly to hear that Sam wouldn't go to the same extremes as he would to maintain his life. But I wonder, if put to a similar test, WHAT WOULD SAM DO? What do you think, Robin's Ramble readers? Having already given my Doc Benton spiel, I think Sam would do anything natural to save Dean. I think he would throw himself in front of a train, or take a bullet. I think he would look for doctor's or specialists if Dean became ill. I don't think he would sell his soul, trust an angel other than Castiel to cure Dean, make a deal with Crowley, ask Death of a take backsie, find another faith healer that will kill someone to save Dean or dig up Doc Benton and his formula. I think Sam learned from all the times they couldn't let go. I think Sam trusts that Dean has earned peace and not Hell and that he would let the natural order take over. There is a chance that if Sam could trade his life for Dean's that Sam would do that, but truly disrupting the natural order I think (hope) Sam has learned better.
I think we're going to find out soon enough just how far Sam will go before this season is over, and we might just be shocked at the result.

Love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-06 12:54
Quoting percysowner:
e he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.[/, too, believe Sam failed to look for Dean because he believed him dead.

I have to note that when Sam was at his most desperate to save Dean after Dean was killed by the Hell Hounds, that Dean wasn't just dead, he was in Hell and suffering and Sam was alive because Dean was being tortured. That is a real difference from just being dead. I don't know if Sam would have used Roy the faith healer in Faith if he knew someone would die for Dean to live. I tend to think not because that is pretty amoral and Sam was not there in season one. If Dean had just been dead and not being turned into a demon (which is what Sam believed was happening) he may have been able to let go. Even The Trickster/Gabriel emphasized that Dean was "doing the Hellfire Rumba" in Mystery Spot, so there was more going on than just Dean's dead.

quote]

I am one of those who also believes that Sam didn't search for Dean because he thought him dead. It's the only explanation that fits for me. And Sam WAS crazed to even trade places with Dean in hell, if you recall. So there is no doubt in my mind that these two crazy brothers will go to any extreme to save each other when push comes to shove.

Wait and see. :-)

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-06 12:54
e he was almost medically dead and was ready to go. I don't see Sam going to the extremes to save Dean that Dean does to save Sam. Sure in Season 4 they showed how he tried making deals with the crossroad demons but back then they were limited on information and allies to ask for assistance or help. I have always been one of those that felt Sam didn't look for Dean in Season 8 because he thought he was dead and had no idea where he went or even where to start looking since everyone he had any chance of getting some information out of was also gone (Meg, Kevin, Crowley, Cas) but that is a whole other issue that has been beat to death. By no means does this mean I feel any less for Sam than I do for Dean because that is not the case. I love them both equally and feel for both of them in just different ways.[/, too, believe Sam failed to look for Dean because he believed him dead.

I have to note that when Sam was at his most desperate to save Dean after Dean was killed by the Hell Hounds, that Dean wasn't just dead, he was in Hell and suffering and Sam was alive because Dean was being tortured. That is a real difference from just being dead. I don't know if Sam would have used Roy the faith healer in Faith if he knew someone would die for Dean to live. I tend to think not because that is pretty amoral and Sam was not there in season one. If Dean had just been dead and not being turned into a demon (which is what Sam believed was happening) he may have been able to let go. Even The Trickster/Gabri el emphasized that Dean was "doing the Hellfire Rumba" in Mystery Spot, so there was more going on than just Dean's dead.
quote]

I am one of those who also believes that Sam didn't search for Dean because he thought him dead. It's the only explanation that fits for me. And Sam WAS crazed to even trade places with Dean in hell, if you recall. So there is no doubt in my mind that these two crazy brothers will go to any extreme to save each other when push comes to shove.

Wait and see. :-)

Love,
Robin
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-06 15:42
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2014-02-06 15:42
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-07 07:39
Quoting lkeke35:
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.


That's true, but that fact that one of them was dead never really stopped either of them in early seasons :lol: However, I think Sam has been consistent in this regard since the end of Season 5; before jumping in the cage with Lucifer, he made Dean promise him that he'd go live some "apple pie life" with Lisa and Ben, and I think Sam was sincere in wanting this for his brother. In early S6, we find out that Dean tried to find ways to bust Sam out. So, when you think about it, both of them have been consistent in their behavior, even the controversial decision by Sam at the start of S8 to not look for Dean; he thought Dean was dead but wasn't going to risk the collateral damage to others to try to bring him back. Given Sam's history of starting the apocalypse (and yes, there were a lot of forces manipulating events to make sure this happened but Sam made a lot of really, really, bad decisions along the way), he has decided that saving his brother, or bringing him back, isn't worth taking out 1/2 the planet along the way. In effect, he was honoring the agreement he and Dean made to one another, that very agreement so easily dismissed by both Dean and Bobby. The same agreement he expected Dean to honor. Would Sam take a bullet for Dean? Yes. Will he upset the natural order, and risk all the collateral damage that usually happens when one of them does this? Probably not. This probably upsets people with an over-romanticiz ed view of the bro-dependency but, like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent in this for some time.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2014-02-07 07:39
Quote:
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.
That's true, but that fact that one of them was dead never really stopped either of them in early seasons :lol: However, I think Sam has been consistent in this regard since the end of Season 5; before jumping in the cage with Lucifer, he made Dean promise him that he'd go live some "apple pie life" with Lisa and Ben, and I think Sam was sincere in wanting this for his brother. In early S6, we find out that Dean tried to find ways to bust Sam out. So, when you think about it, both of them have been consistent in their behavior, even the controversial decision by Sam at the start of S8 to not look for Dean; he thought Dean was dead but wasn't going to risk the collateral damage to others to try to bring him back. Given Sam's history of starting the apocalypse (and yes, there were a lot of forces manipulating events to make sure this happened but Sam made a lot of really, really, bad decisions along the way), he has decided that saving his brother, or bringing him back, isn't worth taking out 1/2 the planet along the way. In effect, he was honoring the agreement he and Dean made to one another, that very agreement so easily dismissed by both Dean and Bobby. The same agreement he expected Dean to honor. Would Sam take a bullet for Dean? Yes. Will he upset the natural order, and risk all the collateral damage that usually happens when one of them does this? Probably not. This probably upsets people with an over-romanticiz ed view of the bro-dependency but, like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent in this for some time.
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-16 12:22
Quoting lkeke35:
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.


Then I rest my case! Why would Sam search for Dean if he believed him dead? Unless, of course, Dean felt Sam should look for him anyway, dead or alive, and find some supernatural way to resurrect him and bring him back. Maybe that's exactly what Dean would expect? I don't know, but how often have they said that what's dead should stay dead--but not if it's a Winchester, lol!love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-16 12:22
Quote:
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.
Then I rest my case! Why would Sam search for Dean if he believed him dead? Unless, of course, Dean felt Sam should look for him anyway, dead or alive, and find some supernatural way to resurrect him and bring him back. Maybe that's exactly what Dean would expect? I don't know, but how often have they said that what's dead should stay dead--but not if it's a Winchester, lol!love,
Robin
robinv
# robinv 2014-02-16 12:28
Quoting njspnfan:
Quoting lkeke35:
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.


That's true, but that fact that one of them was dead never really stopped either of them in early seasons :lol: However, I think Sam has been consistent in this regard since the end of Season 5; before jumping in the cage with Lucifer, he made Dean promise him that he'd go live some "apple pie life" with Lisa and Ben, and I think Sam was sincere in wanting this for his brother. In early S6, we find out that Dean tried to find ways to bust Sam out. So, when you think about it, both of them have been consistent in their behavior, even the controversial decision by Sam at the start of S8 to not look for Dean; he thought Dean was dead but wasn't going to risk the collateral damage to others to try to bring him back. Given Sam's history of starting the apocalypse (and yes, there were a lot of forces manipulating events to make sure this happened but Sam made a lot of really, really, bad decisions along the way), he has decided that saving his brother, or bringing him back, isn't worth taking out 1/2 the planet along the way. In effect, he was honoring the agreement he and Dean made to one another, that very agreement so easily dismissed by both Dean and Bobby. The same agreement he expected Dean to honor. Would Sam take a bullet for Dean? Yes. Will he upset the natural order, and risk all the collateral damage that usually happens when one of them does this? Probably not. This probably upsets people with an over-romanticized view of the bro-dependency but, like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent in this for some time.


You make an excellent point here. At what point should that line be drawn? Demon deals? Angel deals? I think Sam will do any think HUMN to save Dean, as long as there is no straying into supernatural territory, because that is where the world is put in danger. Dean, on the other hand, will--and has--gone to any and every length to save Sam, which has caused mayhem and death.

Love,
Robin
Robin Vogel
# Robin Vogel 2014-02-16 12:28
Quote:
Quote:
OT a little bit here:
but Sam did tell Dean he thought he was dead. Right in episode one of season eight. I think he said it a couple of times during the season but everyone in the show ( Bobby, Meg, Dean) was so busy jumping at the chance to chastize him that they all just ran roughshod over his answer.
That's true, but that fact that one of them was dead never really stopped either of them in early seasons :lol: However, I think Sam has been consistent in this regard since the end of Season 5; before jumping in the cage with Lucifer, he made Dean promise him that he'd go live some "apple pie life" with Lisa and Ben, and I think Sam was sincere in wanting this for his brother. In early S6, we find out that Dean tried to find ways to bust Sam out. So, when you think about it, both of them have been consistent in their behavior, even the controversial decision by Sam at the start of S8 to not look for Dean; he thought Dean was dead but wasn't going to risk the collateral damage to others to try to bring him back. Given Sam's history of starting the apocalypse (and yes, there were a lot of forces manipulating events to make sure this happened but Sam made a lot of really, really, bad decisions along the way), he has decided that saving his brother, or bringing him back, isn't worth taking out 1/2 the planet along the way. In effect, he was honoring the agreement he and Dean made to one another, that very agreement so easily dismissed by both Dean and Bobby. The same agreement he expected Dean to honor. Would Sam take a bullet for Dean? Yes. Will he upset the natural order, and risk all the collateral damage that usually happens when one of them does this? Probably not. This probably upsets people with an over-romanticized view of the bro-dependency but, like it or not, I think Sam has been consistent in this for some time.
You make an excellent point here. At what point should that line be drawn? Demon deals? Angel deals? I think Sam will do any think HUMN to save Dean, as long as there is no straying into supernatural territory, because that is where the world is put in danger. Dean, on the other hand, will--and has--gone to any and every length to save Sam, which has caused mayhem and death.

Love,
Robin