Tablets and trials, purgatory, mind-control, vampire BFFs...which part is your favourite? What part do you fast-forward on rewatch? Season Eight happens to be one of my favourites. I know there are mixed feelings out there about it, nevertheless, there were a lot of hits and struggles to find misses at times if I’m being truthful. As always – no order to these. Stay tuned for Part Two and sound off on your highlights and lowlights below!


Hit: Benny the Vampire
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It was time for a new friend to enter the fold, and a controversial one at that. Benny was delicious. He was a fighter, he helped Dean exactly when he needed it and it was a friendship built purely on mercantile motives. Benny had a great history, offered a good storyline and didn’t outdo his welcome.


Miss: Amelia
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Speaking of overstaying welcomes….Amelia was one of those characters whose name I never needed to learn. She was irritated from the jump and never endeared herself in any capacity. Nothing about Amelia was likeable – she was angry and rude, and despite her circumstances, not in a forgivable manner. Even her relationship with Sam didn’t feel organic in light of his other companions. Sorry Amelia, you won’t be missed.


Hit: Purgatory
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What’s to say? We saw Heaven, we saw Hell – it was time to see the in-between. And it was perfectly executed on a visual level. Great concept. Great adventure.


Miss: Naomi
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*Nitpick alert!* Naomi was kind of annoying on a –blah- level after a while. I was just glad to see her gone!


Hit: Hunteri Heroici
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Cartoon effects in Supernatural? Sounds ridiculous but somehow, this show manages to make the ridiculous work  without losing itself.


Miss: Not Looking for Kevin
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**Nitpick Alert** I actually like how this played out – Kevin is a great character and learned to be very self-sufficient. But it doesn’t exactly jive that Sam wouldn’t track him down for that year.


Hit: The Men of Letters
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Wonderful addition to the mythology and a base of operations for the boys – finally. What more can I say that hasn’t already been said. It’s perfect!


Miss: Bobby in Hell
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**Nitpick Alert** This is fussy, but it just felt like an unnecessary element to make a plot device wedge into the story. Bobby doesn’t belong in Hell, plain and simple.


Hit: Henry Winchester
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Is there somebody who didn’t like meeting Grandpa Winchester? It was great to learn about the Winchester genealogy; especially after knowing all we do now about Mary and the Campbells. Plus, it is plain to see how this character, with this attitude (polite though he was) was grandfather to boys like Sam and Dean. Wit like that, it's in the blood.


Miss: Sam v Benny
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Sam was so against Benny from the jump – why?


So there we have it - Part One of the season eight hits and misses; what do you think?

Comments  

sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-01 14:32
Season 8 was a bit of a hard pill to swallow for me. But, still the only episode I can say I absolutely found myself fast forwarding through, was blood brothers. For me the entire first half of the season was really hard to watch. I found myself angry at Dean for the first ten episodes. He was downright unlikeable...fo r me. just for me...I was angry at Dean for the entire first half of the season. It wasn't until the second half, which I positively loved, that I actually could see where the story was headed....and yet still with that understanding, I still find the first half tough to watch, though I no longer "dislike" dean, but still want to punch him right in the nose...for like ten eps:D:

I actually disliked the character of Benny, though I totally dug Ty as Eli. I found Benny and Dean's relationship to be completely over the top. It wasn't until the second half that it became clear to me why. All through the first half I found Benny and Dean too much, to the point of being ridiculous....t hen I got it. Dean's over the top relationship with benny was purposely written that way to illustrate how much Dean actually broke in Purgatory. Dean had become the very thing he hated most. He became a monster and not because he killed, but because he enjoyed Purgatory and he enjoyed killing without guilt. His anger towards Sam was never about Sam living normal and leaving him there for a girl. That notion was as ridiculous as Dean's bromance with a vampire. His anger and resentment aimed at Sam was because Sam wasn't there to stop what happened to Dean. Sam believing his brother dead and keeping a promise they made to ea. other, thus allowed Dean to become what he became. Killing without guilt is not uncommon for Dean, as he did become the torturer in hell not too long ago and proclaimed to have liked it. Dean needed to believe Benny was the exception to Dean's own monster rule that he not too long ago proclaimed to Amy before he gutted her. Dean Winchester, who's hated monsters since show started was now best friends with one? That screams hypocrisy. That's what was so irritating for me. But I get it. I understood eventually where Dean was coming from. I got it when he told Sam "people change". He was referring to himself and what he became. I understood when he kept telling Sam that Benny could be trusted, even though dean obviously didn't trust him. I understood why Dean kept Sam away from Benny...I think Sam would be able to see the true Benny...after all Benny was a vampire and a killer, as admitted by he himself. He also admitted to it being hard up top and we know from the deleted scene that besides ,which was a brutal vamp attack that went beyond a mere kill, Benny did admit to killing others. I got the need for Dean to boost Benny up...it was more for himself..he needed to believe it otherwise Dean would have to truly admit what he'd become...

as hard as sc was to watch, and it was hard and I disliked dean very much here...I understood. all that anger he had and took out on sam...that was displaced anger. it wasn't sam who left him in purgatory for a girl, but as we learned in the following episode, dean did believe he left cas down there for a vampire. And dean telling sam benny was more of a brother....that was bs as well....but dean needed to believe in benny....even the chuck awful text.....dean spent so much time trying to convince himself that benny was the exception to the monster rule, that not even seeing martin's massacre could convince him of the truth...but dean kept sam away and had sam seen martin....Dean couldn't face what he'd become and he nearly destroyed his relationship with his brother because of it. The text was too far....you gave a miss to sam not liking benny...you ask why? the way I see it, it's because in Dean's effort to make benny more than he was, so not to face what he himself became, he pushed his brother away. He made sam feel like a failure and a disappointment. He inadvertently pushed Sam to the point of an ultimatum...Ben ny was a dealbreaker, because Sam truly believed that he came last in his brother's eyes. He can no longer compete with Benny for his brother's love/trust....S am was losing his brother to a vampire....so he believed which prompted Sam to go for broke....to make an ultimatum...it was all he could do to win his brother back... why do you think dean was absolutely in shock when sam broke in sacrifice honestly believing dean loved benny and cas more than him? I believe it's because Dean never really trusted Benny. Yes Benny was his friend, but he was still a monster. Dean would never put a monster in front of his brother....but in trying to deny what he had become in purgatory, he did just that....at least in Sam's eyes.

As for Amelia, I agree....she's forgettable. But as with Benny, though I didn't like her as well, I understood her presence. She was Sam's lifeline. Dean wasn't the only one who broke. Sam broke too. I actually do get how Sam didn't look for Dean and it makes perfect sense..to me. ;);) Sam's emotional/menta l stability had been deteriorating ever since Cas broke his wall. Sam was a mess from the s6 finale all thru s7. Sam spent over a century being Lucifer's punching bag. 100 years of torture all coming down on sam because of cas. Sam almost died because of his hallucinations. Cas may have stopped sam from seeing Lucifer, but he didn't erase sam's memories of a hundred years of torture. Add that to losing Bobby twice.....then losing Dean....Dean, who he begged not to die in the slice girls.....in slash fiction levi sam questioned how sam was still even standing....wel l the answer was Dean...sam's strength came from Dean....he wasn't going to leave him alone out there. Dean was his touchstone, number one....and in an instant Dean was gone....explodi ng in a blast of black goo....not only was Dean gone...but Cas too....an angel...sam was alone...he just lost bobby, cas and dean....he literally had no one to turn to. he was already hanging on by a thread....and his thread was taken from him....I seem to recall when sam died, dean didn't want anything to do with hunting anymore...and he still had bobby. It made perfect sense that Sam would run away from the life that took everyone he loved. We were given throughout the season many clues that Sam had broken. His relationship with Amelia for one, his talk of suicide in heartache, his confession to Amelia that he imploded and ran, meg questioning his hitting the dog in the first place and bobby telling them that they both went off the rails....which was true....they both went off the rails...

It was hard watching sam and dean broken at the same time. usually it's one or the other and the other is there to pick up the pieces...but this time...hell the pieces were everywhere and the only ones there to pick them up were them....

the second half of the season was much much better...totall y loved it. Dean spent most of the second half trying to redeem himself, to sam and to himself. Sam spent the second half trying to redeem himself to Dean. In the end though....sam and dean shone as they once again proved that the love that they have for ea. other is stronger than any force out there....:)


thanks for the article. ;)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-01 20:17
sugarhi, I agree with many of your sentiments about S8. The first half was not very pleasant, the second half was outstanding. I was extremely unhappy about Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin. I thought it was wildly uncharacteristi c of him. For all of the reasons you beautifully articulated, I thought they COULD have presented a credible, sympathetic reason for the choice Sam made. The preceding years would have driven any person insane, and it's a testament to Sam that he hadn't broken earlier. But they never allowed Sam to fully voice any of that. Instead he offered vague, half-hearted reasons that didn't speak to a complete emotional and mental break, because Carver didn't want him to provide a convincing explanation. Otherwise, they couldn't have had the contrived conflict between the brothers that fueled the second half of the season. So while in my mind it was understandable that Sam just ran from everything, I wish they had allowed him to articulate that. They never even allowed him to show the anguish that Sam would surely have felt listening to those desperate messages from Kevin. Sam would never have just sat there silently eating his chili, and then calmly saying "you're right, let's go find him," or words to that effect. Sam would have been torn up thinking about how he had left Kevin to his fate. So while I generally share your view of Sam's state of mind after S7, and the reasons why he had broken, I wish that this had been presented in the script, rather than left for us to infer.
I really enjoyed your take on S8, and on this point I am in full agreement:

Quote:
In the end though....sam and dean shone as they once again proved that the love that they have for ea. other is stronger than any force out there...
:)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-01 21:38
I agree samanddean10 that I too would've liked to hear more from sam instead of all the clues we'd received in some of the episodes. I agree that Carver didn't want Sam's voice heard because it would've taken away from the season finale. I think Carver wanted us to hear it from Sam when Dean did...;) while I agree that it would've been nice to hear more out of Sam and see more from Sam, it does make sense that he'd keep silent. Sam's done so before. I also believe that Sam would rather have Dean's anger and let him believe what he believed than admit the truth and tell him that he imploded and ran away...because I think Sam would feel worse if Dean saw him as a failure. My opinion of course;) I also think it was self punishment..... it bothered me when Bobby scolded Sam about keeping the promise and Sam wasn't allowed the voice to speak what truly happened and what he truly felt...but again, that would've given too much away....but I also think Sam accepts being scolded because he feels he deserves it for not being strong enough...of course I also thought that Bobby clearly stating that both boys went off the rails was the message to the audience....and that both boys in fact ended up broken.

i'm just glad now that sam and dean have finally reached a point where we no longer have to worry about the other misperceiving what the other feels about them because of how they see themselves. ;)
JJA
# JJA 2015-10-01 18:29
I loved season 8. I thought it was the strongest season of Supernatural since season 5. It really got me excited for the show once more, especially after the dreadful season 7. Even the so called "misses" you listed above weren't really "misses" in my book.

Amelia was overused, but the character itself wasn't so bad. We didn't really need to see the whole Sam-Amelia backstory play-out, all we needed was to know that she was there. Amelia should only have been used in 4 episodes, but no more.

Naomi was annoying yes, but the fact that she was annoying worked. The character was suppose to be annoying and bitchy.

Not looking for Kevin was so central to the story, I can't see how it could have been a "miss." Then again, there should have been a better explanation as for why Sam didn't go looking for him. Simply falling in love with Amelia wasn't a good enough reason. Sam should have had a full-on breakdown, or possibly he should have been under the control of that mysterious man we see in the premier outside Amelia's house (but never see again).

Bobby in hell was bad, yes I agree with that. The idea of Sam freeing an innocent soul from Hell was good as the second trial, but it should have been some other character. Also, it made no sense as to how Bobby got into hell. I always felt it should have been Ellen, since she could have been dragged there by the hellhounds during the events of "Abandon All Hope."

Finally, Sam vs. Benny was good!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-01 19:55
I agree with many of your choices Elle. I had very mixed feelings about S8. I was not wild about the first half, but I thought the second half was fantastic. I LOVED the introduction of Henry, the MOL, and the bunker. I loved Purgatory and Benny, and Hunteri Heroici was excellent. But unlike you I enjoyed Naomi. She was one of the more interesting angels of the last few seasons, and I thought the actress convincingly portrayed her remorse in Sacrifice. I enjoyed Bobby's return but I thought the depiction of Hell was very underwhelming. Also, I didn't like the idea that Crowley's wishes trump all else in determining who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell. You'd think the angels would have more of a say in that!
Vince
# Vince 2015-10-01 20:10
One of my big misses with season 8 was Purgatory, they could have more fun with the monsters. Toss out a wraith or a rawhead, something that doesn't look so human.

That also ties in with Cas, I thought a much better story for him in Purgatory would have been if he had gone full on Col. Kurtz, declared himself a celestial king in the land of abominations. Then have Namoi get him out, do her brain washing thing, and use that to explain how he went from crazy to sane.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-02 09:05
After Seasons 9-10, I look back fondly upon Season 8 as the "good old days". Aside for the crappy job they did of giving some context to why Sam didn't look for Kevin or Dean, I enjoyed the season and though the issues the brothers had in the first half of the season were very understandable given how they both spent the prior year.

As far as hits/misses go, I agree with your list except for Naomi; I thought they could have used her her more effectively but overall I viewed her more as a hit than a miss. I also didn't have any problems with Bobby being in hell, but that particular episode left a lot to be desired.

As far as the whole Benny and Sam thing went, it was clearly jealousy on Sam's part, and this ultimately contributed to what happened in Sacrifice. Dean reinforced this with comments such as "Yes, I do – too well. In fact, every relationship I have ever had has gone to crap at some point. But the one thing I can say about Benny – he has never let me down." and "Benny has been more of a brother to me this past year than you've ever been! That's right. Cas let me down. You let me down. The only person that hasn't let me down is Benny."
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-02 10:43
Quote:
As far as the whole Benny and Sam thing went, it was clearly jealousy on Sam's part
This was a huge miss for me in S8. The fact that Dean kept Benny a secret. The established canon that it has always been Sam who has been sympathetic to friendly monsters went out the window. The perception was that Sam was jealous of Benny when there was no reason for Sam to be jealous (after all Dean was with Sam not Benny). And even as late as Citizen Fang Dean hadn't really told Sam anything about Benny-Dean: "Does this sound like the Benny you know?" Sam: "I don't know Benny". Benny could have been a great new addition to the brothers lives. A monster ally to help them with vampires from time to time. But he was used as a rift that had no basis for existing given the brothers history.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-02 15:24
I absolutely agree with the jealousy over Benny on Sam's part. Sam isn't used to playing second fiddle when it comes to Dean's affections.. Sam wants to be #1 in Dean's life but at the same time he resents it. Benny and Dean had a truly unique relationship forged from being in a 24/7 360 degree combat zone relying on one another the entire time they were stuck in Purgatory. Benny won Dean's loyalty and visa versa because he earned it. I liked how Benny was supportive and cared about him. Also how he respected Deans hunting prowess, that he accepted him for the way he was, no strings attached. I really enjoyed their friendship and tho I think it's unlikely - other than in a situation like The Werther Project - I'd like to see Benny return .
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-02 18:40
But Sam was #1 in Dean's life. Dean was with Sam. He didn't take off with Benny other than to bail him out of the jam he'd gotten into. Dean headed straight to Sam when he got back. Even after Dean found out that Sam didn't look he still wanted to be with Sam. I don't see where the jealousy idea comes from. Other than Dean throwing Benny's awesomeness in Sam's face a few times Sam didn't really mention Benny other than when it looked like he had killed people. And in Sacrifice when Sam wanted to be that person in Dean's life that he could turn to. That Dean could trust. Sam was tired of always failing Dean. He wanted to do at least one thing right and close the Gates of Hell to atone for not looking and not being the one that Dean could always count on.

Sam was angry about the secrets. Like Dean is so fond of saying- "if it was so wonderful why did you lie about it". There was no reason for Dean to lie unless he had something to hide. The Benny storyline and the Amelia storyline made no sense. Sam was the one who was always sympathetic to monsters (vampires especially). Dean was always the one to kill first ask questions later. So why keep him a secret. Sam was upfront about Amelia. He didn't hide the fact that he hadn't looked. He told Dean everything. Why didn't Dean? To create a rift that had no basis in the shows history and put Sam in a position that he would rather die than fail his brother again? Ok I guess.

And Sam not looking? I can understand he thought that Dean was dead. Ok I'll buy that. But Kevin? Sam would never abandon Kevin. That was preposterous. Unless there was some horrific mental breakdown (we were all waiting for that story to be unveiled) there was no acceptable reason for leaving Kevin in Crowley's hands. I'm with Robbie Thompson on this one. He wanted so badly to write an episode explaining what happened before "he hit the F****** dog".

Benny could have been a great recurring character. If he had been introduced as the creature who saved Dean in Purgatory to Sam. There was no need to end him. Amelia needed to end. She should have never happened.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-02 19:16
I agree 100% on the whole Benny/jealousy issue.:)
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-03 18:45
Quote:
But Sam was #1 in Dean's life
Based upon all the verbal shots Dean was taking at Sam in the first half of Season 8, you sure could have fooled me. Not saying that Dean didn't have a reason to be pissed that Sam didn't look for him (or more importantly, not looking for Kevin), but hardly an episode went by where Dean wasn't making some snide or sarcastic comment to Sam. And yes, Sam was angry about the secrets but I think a big part of Benny always referring to Dean as "brother" was to give the perception, right or wrong, that he was replacing Sam in Dean's life. So yes, I think Sam was jealous and this came to a head in Sacrifice.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-03 20:49
I'm not saying that Dean didn't give Sam a hard time given what happened. But he never left Sam until the "text". But they were reunited almost instantly.

Jealousy is a petty emotion in my definition and I just never saw Sam as being petty. I saw him feeling guilt and remorse. I saw him trying to do everything he could to make up for failing Dean. But I just never saw Sam as being so childish as to blame someone else for the mistakes he made.

What Sam wanted more than anything was Dean's trust. I don't think Sam ever recovered from Dean's statement at the hospital when Dean told him he didn't think things could ever be the same again, that he didn't think he could ever trust him again. Every time Dean brought up Sammy's greatest hits it drove home again that Dean didn't trust him.

Sam was never jealous of Cas who Dean considered like a brother to him or Bobby who Dean considered like a father, those that Dean counted on to help him when Sam couldn't help (usually because it was Sam who was the one who needed saving).

What Sam wanted was to be just as trusted as Cas and Bobby and Benny and not just a screw up. He wanted to be that person in Dean's life that Dean could always turn to. Dean didn't need to look elsewhere for someone to back him up because he had his brother right there by his side. That doesn't mean that Sam wouldn't want anyone else to fill that role if needed but he didn't want Dean to feel that he had to look elsewhere because he couldn't count on his own brother.

No I just don't buy that Sam was jealous. That isn't a very flattering quality to have and it would negate the powerful moment in the church between the brothers. For me anyway it would reduce Sam to acting like a teenage girl throwing a tantrum.

And if you watch NerdHQ at this years SDCC that is not how Jared played that scene. He pretty much said that the script was telling his own life story. How he suffers from anxiety and depression because he doesn't feel like he is good enough or that he will fail everyone. It was a pretty powerful moment that almost made Jared break down (his "brother" brought him back....hmm life imitating art). That was how I saw that scene as well. I thought Jared played it perfectly. At least IMO.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-04 10:03
cheryl42, perfectly said. I also didn't find any jelousy from Sam's part. He felt hurt that Dean considered Benny of more of a brother than Sam (as for me, I was indignant, the guy jumped in Lucifer's cage to save Dean from a fate of a suit for Michael, he embraced his memories from Hell not to leave his brother alone, he embraced the insanity and death from it to save Dean in Repo man and after that the vampire, who cooperated with Dean for his own ends is a better brother for Dean), and also felt that he let Dean down. It wasn't the case, but it's Sam, who always takes everything on himself.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-04 10:33
And I disagree... let's all move on and not beat a dead horse.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-04 13:25
I thought this was a fairly civil discussion. If others want to voice an opinion on the subject this is a thread about hits and misses of S8. I don't think we have strayed from that thread. I have said all that I want to say, I can move on. Others who haven't posted a comment may disagree.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2015-10-04 14:38
it is obvious the majority of people posting here agree with you and that's fine; doesn't change my opinion so no need to belabor the point.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 20:03
Cheryl, I agree w/your overall point, but I do feel the writing portrayed Sam as jealous of Benny. I see no other reason for his irrational hatred of Benny from the moment they met or his obsession w/Benny. He went as far as to have Benny tailed. Why? Benny wasn't even bothering Dean or Sam. Benny was just living his own life.

So, I do think Sam was supposed to be jealous, but as you said, that jealousy really made no sense and didn't fit w/Sam's characterizatio n. Sam wouldn't care if Dean made a friend in Purgatory or got someone to help him. Honestly, nothing about Sam's attitude re: Benny ever made sense to me. Again, as you said, Benny could have been a good "monster ally" for the boys. TO was great in the part, and I liked the character. It is a shame he was misused for more pointless, contrived conflict btw the brothers..
LEAH
# LEAH 2015-10-04 20:20
Lala I agree with that. I also further think Dean would not have been so petty and hurtful to Sam for trying to have a life when Sam thought Dean was dead and was broken because if it. I strongly dislike the writing for both brothers in early S8 and I skip blaming either character for their OOC actions and go directly to the writing for blame! Benny could have been an interesting character but instead, as you pointed out, he was used for contrived conflict. I will probably never rewatch any of those episodes.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 20:47
I hear you, Leah! I have only watched S8 once - the time it aired. I have never taken the time to watch the season again, and I don't own the season. I have seen EHH and ATGB on TNT again, but that's it. I found the OOC writing for Sam to be intolerable in the beginning half of the season as most here know since I complained about it non-stop. Haha! I know that was frustrating for posters so I quit posting here, but I still have a special hate for S8. It was awful IMO.

No effort was made to explain why Sam thought Dean was dead, why he left Kevin - a 17-year old kid - to fend for himself, why he never looked into Dean's disappearance, etc. No effort was made to actually tell a story, which is why the story bombed for most viewers. It's why well into the Spring, Carver was still fielding questions about whether we would find out if Sam looked for Dean. Carver's experiment was a massive failure!

At this point, I can't see myself watching any of the Carver seasons again.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-04 20:31
I understand what you are saying and you aren't the only one to see jealousy in Sam. I just have to go with Jared on this one. It was how I saw it as well. But either way the writing in the first half didn't do either character any favors.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 20:57
I agree w/Jared about Sacrifice and what Sam was thinking in that moment. I thought it was clear that Sam was feeling bad about the times he let Dean down and that he hadn't been someone he felt Dean could count on or turn to when having a problem. I saw that speech as Sam saying he hadn't been a good brother and him wanting to make up for it. I don't disagree w/that at all. That was what I got from Sacrifice.

For me, that feeling was NOT what I got in the beginning of S8. I got irrational jealousy and hatred. It honestly made no sense to me. I didn't get any sense of Sam feeling like he had let Dean down or that he wasn't good enough to be Dean's brother. It just wasn't conveyed in the writing, IMO. I highly doubt Carver had any idea where the season was headed when he wrote the premiere, and we know he is not present in the writers' room so there was no clear storyline or journey for Sam in S8.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 01:06
Irrational jealousy, hatred and resentment. Sam was pissy with Dean so many times it was almost as if he had wished Dean had never returned. Why the resentment? The whole Sam Amelia love fest was over by the time Dean showed up at the cabin. Was it because Dean was back and Sam found himself dragged back into the hunting life he tried unsuccessfully to escape from once again? Was it that he didn't want to resume little brother status because he was used to being his own man? Did he just not want to deal with Dean's PTSD? You would've thought that Sam was the one who spent the year in Purgatory constantly fighting for his life. He definitely didn't cut Dean much slack in that regard. As far as Benny goes, Dean told Sam if it hadn't been for him that he would have been roasting on a spit down there. He fought side by side with Benny all that time. He knew Benny and considered him a friend. Dean lived it, not Sam and yet Sam never gave Benny the benefit of the doubt, instead threatening Dean that he might be the one who ices him some day. And still Benny gave up his life for Sam because Dean asked him to.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-05 07:46
That makes Dean sound kind of pathetic doesn't it? Why would Dean stay in such an abusive relationship? Dean certainly could have gone off with his awesome better brother. Dean could have made "coffee" runs for Benny and life would have been perfect.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 13:54
Dean didn't want to leave Sam but he definitely wasn't backing down from Sam as he has in the past once he returned from Purgatory even though Sam alternated between acting like he was disgusted, annoyed, inconvenienced and embarrassed and that started almost from the get go.

On the flip side if Sam is so mistreated by Dean and wants a normal life so bad what is keeping him by Dean's side? All he has to do, all he's ever had to do is step out of Dean's ride and walk away. Organic Farmers Markets await. Furthering his higher education... Dean told him to go, both feet out or in and yet what did Sam choose to do knowing his "love" was waiting, that all he has ever wanted so badly - all this time - was but a heartbeat away? He stayed. Makes Sam sound kinda pathetic, doesn't it?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-05 16:54
I don't think I implied that Dean was mistreating Sam. My response was that you painted Dean as pathetic for staying in an abusive relationship.

Sam screwed up and Dean was riding him pretty hard about it. When Sam found out about Benny he told Dean to "move on or I will". The scenarios set up for both brothers was so preposterous I really couldn't figure out what the hell each other was angry about. Because in the second half of S8 it was like the first half happened on another show.

Sam did tell Dean that he was leaving the hunting life as soon as the gates of hell were shut. He stayed with Dean because Dean needed him. And yes he in the end decided to stay with Dean because he knew that Dean was in over his head and needed his help. So both Sam and Dean gave up their "soul" mates for each other and the job. And thankfully for most fans that bizarre series of episodes came to a merciful end never to be mentioned on the show again (Oops I lied. Crowley did bring up the dog didn't he?) but lives on in fandom infamy for all eternity.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 18:42
Yes but I wasn't just referring to that particular incident (at least that's not how I meant it specifically) but to all the time Sam has been with Dean. If you hate the life so much, being with your brother drives you crazy, if normal is your Nirvana, then do something about it. No excuses, no threats to leave, no holding it over Dean's head, no snit and separation of a week or two... Sam has always had the option to leave yet he never has. Not all those years before the shutting the Gates of Hell, not after the possession by Gad... what does that say about Sam?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-05 19:26
In the entire series I have never heard Sam hold his desire for a normal life over Dean. The most he ever said about it was in S1 when he asked Dean to let him live his own life once the demon was killed. Of course then John was still alive and Sam just assumed that Dean was going to continue hunting with his father while Sam returned to the life he wanted to live (the same life that Dean inexplicably wanted for Sam too during TAE). After John died (and I just did an entire series rewatch) I don't recall Sam bringing up a normal life again. I know there were a few instances when he thought that at some point they were both going to get out of the life alive but that was about it. Yes the brothers had fights and Sam stormed off (in Indiana when he wanted to go after John, and after Dean lied about Amy). I don't think his being in cahoots with Ruby really counts as wanting a normal life that was more about trying to gain control over an impossible life.

It really wasn't brought up again until S8. Kind of out of the blue. We were asked to make great sweeping assumptions as to why Sam came to this conclusion but nothing that was actually shown. All we had to go on was Dean's dialog and reactions to Sam. Since Dean is the POV and the character that drives the narrative it was really difficult to understand wth was happening with Sam. All we knew was that Dean was furious and Sam was furious and god please let it end. And mercifully it did.

And I have to go back to work so if this post doesn't make any sense I apologize.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 21:45
Sorry if I wasn't clear in regards to the whole "holding it over Dean's head" but I interpret statements like ...'so move on or I will' as a subtle threat. That if Dean doesn't do as Sam is requesting or demanding (in this particular example, get off his high and mighty about Sam's actions) then he will leave. That is what I meant by holding it over Dean's head. That occasional threat to leave if Dean doesn't do as Sam wants. Another example being the - we can be partners, not brothers and if you don't like it... I didn't mean in the case of that expression I used that I was specifically referencing that Sam holds "wanting a normal life" over Dean's head more like the idea that Sam will actually leave him.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-05 22:50
Yes these two do tend to get angry with each other. They have outbursts where they say things like "better brother" and "move on or I will" and any number of digs at each other. And they both know just what to say to make it hurt. But I don't think either one ever really means what they are saying they are just mad.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 19:21
I never painted Dean as pathetic for staying in such an "abusive" relationship. I never said anything like that at all. That was your interpretation. I personally think Dean's an idiot for not kicking Sam out of the Impala and just driving off but that's how I, myself would feel personally if all someone did that I was with was to whine to me over the years how they wanted something else. Sam can be an ass but so can his brother and Dean recognizes that. It doesn't mean Dean has to like it but I think he tries to understand where it is coming from. Normally. But once he found himself fresh back from Purgatory and after all he had endured there, as well as learned about himself , I don't think he really worried about it as much anymore.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-05 21:57
Yes that was very much my interpretation of your post, specially as you have described Sam's behavior towards Dean.

As I said, in what instances did Sam bitch to Dean about leaving the hunting life? The only time he talked about it in S1 was in Shadow when he told Dean that he had to let him go his own way and he didn't seem to be bitching about it just stating a fact. And as I said that was when John was still alive and Dean wasn't going to be alone. The only other time in S1 that Sam went off on his own (and again that wasn't to go live his apple pie life) was when he left to go find John while Dean went on the job John assigned to them in Scarecrow.

I suppose when he went off to find answers after Dean finally told him the truth about what John told him before he died could count as Sam running off. But again it wasn't to go live his normal life.

S3 they were trying to find a way to get Dean out of his deal. I suppose they differed about Dr. Benton and they parted but kept in touch the whole time.

S4 well the whole point of that season was the angels and demons trying to drive a wedge between the brothers in order to start the apocalypse.

He did leave in S5 because he thought he wasn't fit to hunt and didn't want to be a danger to others. Does that count because Dean agreed. There was no emotional outburst of anger from either one. Just a matter of fact parting of the ways for what they thought was the greater good.

In S6 after Sam regained his soul did he ever talk about leaving Dean? I remember him telling Dean he had to set things right but nothing about leaving. And of course "you know me, you know why, I'm not leaving my brother alone out there".

S7 he was dealing with the crazies and yes he did run away to blow his brains out but not to live an apple pie life. After Dean killed Amy (another stupid story line) he took off but not to leave the hunting life since they hooked up on a hunt.

No I don't believe it was until S8 that Sam brought up his apple pie life. And that was after he thought Dean had died. The only person in that scenario that had a right to be pissed was Kevin. Sam told Dean to be prepared for the fact that he was done after the gates of hell were shut. Dean found out about the colleges but Sam just said he was looking into it. If this constitutes as being an ass to Dean about the hunting life I guess I am watching another show.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 23:32
Sam has always wanted a normal life away from hunting. Basic staple of the series. End of. The fact that Dean is aware of this is also a basic staple of the series. Sam has threatened to leave or indicated his desire many times. As I said, if he wanted a life away from Dean, from hunting/to hunt or to go sell seashells at the seashore, whatever - all he's ever had to do, is leave.
But apparently Dean doesn't have to worry about that happening anymore since Sam has decided that he "loves" hunting. Thankfully for Dean's sake he finally made up his mind and put that to rest.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-05 23:57
Maybe in the beginning of the series but after S4 there was really no mention of leaving the life until S8. That was what was so off about the first half. Where did that come from? Sam and Dean may have had different philosophies about hunting. Dean was convinced he was going to die a hunter, Sam felt that their was a way out for both of them. But Sam didn't sit around and whine and complain about for 10 years. And maybe he felt that he could live another life but again he didn't bring it up after S4.

And didn't Dean suddenly want that for Sam? And didn't Sam tell Dean that he could have that life too? Everything didn't need to be a suicide mission? I didn't see Sam as threatening or abusive at all. He seemed to be telling Dean he had worth, after all he had his own room.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-06 00:21
I liked reading your posts Cheryl .Thank you for not simply asserting.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-05 21:44
hey, ladies...gonna offer up my opinion on this if it's ok ...

I think that it's important to remember the events in which they happen here and why they happened (at least the way I took it;);).

Sam left Amelia before Dean or at the same time Dean gets out of purgatory. Based on Hunter Heroici, Sam left Amelia because her husband came back and Sam didn't want Amelia to throw away that relationship for what they had...which we pretty much get from the conversation with her father, that Sam and Amelia were two broken people who stayed together simply because grief was their bond. In HH Sam confessed to BJ Honeycutt cuz for the life of me I can't remember his name on the show...that he couldn't run forever from the real world. So when we see Sam at the beginning entering the cabin, he's already taken steps to get back to the real world....after all he did go to Rufus's cabin, the one place that still had strong memories of his brother.

Sam was shocked and thrilled to see Dean again...even though Dean was a bit ....for lack of a better word....much. All was pretty good until Dean found out that Sam didn't look, that he believed Dean was dead, that he was all alone and he pretty much couldn't stay in the family business that killed his whole family. .....Sam reminded him of the promise they made, which silly that sam might think that those promises were actually meant to be kept. So basically Sam told dean that once he believed him dead, he kept his promise not to do anything stupid or dangerous. Sam believed he was doing what Dean wanted what he asked for. Apparently Sam was mistaken.

Dean immediately became angry and accused Sam of leaving him in purgatory because of a girl (once he asked if there was one.)...Sam told Dean there was and then there wasn't and she had nothing to do with it...which was true...Sam was broken and stopped hunting months before he hit the dog and met her. Amelia was simply someone Sam could focus on. Someone he can save because once again he was unable to save his brother. Still no matter how much Sam tried to convince Dean that he thought he had died, Dean wouldn't or couldn't hear it. He instead believed that Sam didn't look for him because of a girl. So, why would Dean think of something so ridiculous? My guess, because he didn't like what he became in purgatory and he literally couldn't fathom that Sam could actually stop hunting due to the loss of his brother...

Dean, still behaving much the same way he did in purgatory, at every turn lashed out on his brother, making Sam feel smaller and smaller. Let's not forget making sam feel like crap because he didn't look for kevin...cuz he didn't answer his phone. Let's also not forget that Dean wasn't just a dick to Sam either. He was a dick to everyone...most particularly kevin. For all the snide remarks he made at sam for not looking, once they found kevin, dean showed no signs of sympathy or empathy for kevin at all. As a matter of fact, once Kevin told them that there was a way to close the gates of hell forever, Dean pretty much went into dictator mode....Kevin was in it whether he liked it or not according to dean....sam even made a comment noting that free will only belonged to dean. Dean didn't show an ounce of sympathy when kevin was upset about his girlfriend getting killed and dean had no qualms about killing kevin's mother. Dean was cold, he was ruthless, and he was violent....he was everything he was in purgatory.

I don't know where this Sam was prissy is coming from because I never saw it. He was prissy because he bought organic fruit? it's not that unusual given sam's diet. He was prissy and mean for telling dean that he would go back to a normal life again once they helped kevin and yada yada.....I didn't see that as prissy at all....the way I saw it.....by the time Sam tells this to dean, it's been pretty much weeks of dean trashing on sam....so the way I saw it, sam was trying to get a sense of what dean wanted....kind of like an affirmation.... sam brings up living normal because obviously he's a failure and disappointment to dean as a hunter, so what's dean's reaction? does he care? does sam bringing it up get a rise from dean or does dean not give a hoot ? Sam told dean that maybe hunting alone would be best in heartache, and I believe that he said that because he felt he was such a disappointment, that dean thought he'd be better off without him anyway. It's not uncommon for the brother's to test ea. other in that regard. dean's done it too. like in the French mistake when dean told sam he would want to stay in that world and sam had to pretty much convince him no, that's not true.

Basically, at this stage of the game, Dean is taking out his displaced anger on his brother and Sam is beginning to believe dean doesn't want him around anyway. Misperception by both.

The whole speech in sc was very misleading, much like sam's speech in sex and violence...in which we don't really learn the truth until the following eppy. Dean went on about sam deceiving him, but dean had been the one lying to sam, and once upon a time, dean admitted that he hated lying to him, it didn't feel right. Dean went on about sam leaving him in purgatory, but it was dean who believed he left cas in purgatory. dean went on about benny being the only one who didn't let him down, yet i'm pretty sure dean is totally aware that benny didn't let him down because benny needed dean to get out of purgatory. dean was friends with benny and yet I believe he was ashamed of himself for that.

so we get to citizen fang right...now, here dean had the opportunity to bring sam with him to meet up with benny to see what's what, but dean left sam behind....when dean did meet up with benny it was with knife in hand. prime example that there isn't as much trust between dean and benny that dean boasted to having. Dean sends sam that awful text, he wants sam nowhere near benny...now the way I saw it, dean wasn't protecting benny, he was protecting sam. what does dean find when he arrives at the diner....martin ripped apart...now if this was a case of merely protecting his granddaughter, a simple beat down would've sufficed, because benny could've kicked martin's ass....but let's say benny did need to kill martin, that he had no choice...I think it could've been done without martin being ripped apart. What benny did was monstrous and if sam had seen martin's body.....dean tried to underplay it....telling sam martin had it coming? really.....a hunter had it coming? if it was anyone other than benny, supposed self defense or not, dean would've chopped off their heads. now dean is coming face to face with the fact that benny is more than he bargained for.

sam figures out what dean did....and what's the obvious conclusion that he comes to? dean hurt sam, more than dean could ever expect, and has sam believing that it's come to this....that sam was pure fodder now...I wonder how that would make anyone feel? believing your brother/sister would be so willing to hurt you for a monster...I can only imagine the pain sam felt....that his failing his brother had come to this. :(:(

In torn and frayed sam gives dean an ultimatum....be nny is the deal breaker. how hurt must sam be to use such a drastic measure, to fight for his brother's affection? how inferior must he feel now? what do you think it must be like for sam to watch his brother put his trust in a vampire over his own brother and to do so in such a hurtful way? Sam is practically at the point of surrender at this point..he can no longer take being the least of them any longer....and it's not about being jealous....it's about feeling like the biggest disappointment that one can be to another. Dean gets angry. I don't think he was angry with Sam..I think he was angry at himself. I think he felt shame at what he'd done and I think dean realized he pushed to far this time....wheneve r sam hits dean with a truth he doesn't like, dean hits sam, changes the subject, or runs off....in this case, dean ran off......

i thought dean learned a valuable lesson though in this eppy.....workin g with sam, helping cas.....doing the job...he needed a reminder of who he truly is and where he belongs.....and from what i saw, he realized the truth, benny was actually a burden for dean. don't get me wrong, i know they developed some kind of kill bond together....but when it came down to it.....whenever benny called on dean, it was to get benny out of trouble, which usually involved a killing spree. dean was constantly worried what benny was up to....every time benny called dean would get all tense....dean was always asking benny how he was doing...like are you being good? in torn and frayed, dean realized how much time he spent worrying about what benny was doing and once he said goodbye, once he cut ties with benny, dean seemed to go back to being dean again. benny....it was like an out of sight out of mind situation, though i can't help be think dean always wondered if benny was behaving himself....and always dreaded the fact that he might have to kill him one day.

i don't believe Amelia was sam's soul mate nor benny dean's ....i think when two people were messed up and broken, they clung on to the individuals which they used as a lifeline. Sam's focus on Amelia enabled him to eventually find the strength to get back to his real life. Dean's friendship with benny in purgatory enabled him to live long enough to escape. Once dean and sam got back to "the real world", they both realized that they had to let go and move on ....and they moved on, as they always do and will, with ea. other.

now as for the whole why does dean put up with sam and vice versa...why don't they just leave ea. other? the answer is quite simple really....they' re brothers, family, and they love ea. other....and that love doesn't just disappear through difficult times....love endures....and if the Winchesters have taught me anything....whe n it comes to the people you love....you always keep fighting. ;)
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 23:16
Wow. I don't even know where to start or what to say. Truthfully for the most part what I got from this is it's all Dean's fault, issue, interpretation, bossiness, and mistreatment of poor Sam. And Sam? Well he spent the season trying to figure out how to please Dean and not feel like a total disappointment. Because Dean was just that big a meanie to Sam when all Sam did was fall in love and leave the life.

Of course Dean took a machete with him when he went to meet Benny. He's not an idiot. He trusted Benny and considered him a friend. Even tho he knew that there was a chance he might start killing again, he was always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until he saw otherwise. He told Sam more than once if Benny started drinking humans again that he, Dean, would take care of it. Sam showed Dean little to no trust or respect when it came to Benny. I'm sure that was upsetting to Dean if for no other reason than based on Dean's vast experience and knowledge alone.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-06 00:09
I think in SC Dean told Sam that if Benny started drinking humans some other hunter would have to take him out. That was when Sam told Dean he might be that hunter some day. Sam also gave Dean the time to go talk to Benny and investigate what was going on. In the mean time another body showed up...and text message...drivi ng to Texas at warp speed....Martin ...Benny...Elis abeth....pissed off brothers. Such a fun episode to watch.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-06 00:25
And there was nothing other than benny's words which suggested that he did not drink human blood.So, no I am still not convinced that Benny did not kill those people.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-06 00:59
Dean said 'if Benny slips up and some other hunter takes him out so be it' to which Sam said 'but it's not gonna be you, right?' Dean didn't answer. Later in Citizen Fang Sam said 'And what if it turns out to be Benny?' Dean's Rey was 'Then it's Benny, and I'll deal with it!' So yeah, had Dean confirmed Benny was drinking from the tap, as it were, it would have been a done deal and his head would've rolled.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-06 01:22
Yes Sam gave Dean the time to take care of it. He specifically asked Dean how much time he needed. Sam didn't buy Benny's story of a mysterious other vampire (remember Sam had been told nothing about Benny). So again I don't know how Sam is throwing a bitch fit. And Dean's silence implied that it wasn't going to be him to take Benny out. But then it was going to be Dean that took Benny out. Dean rode Sam hard about leaving the life. Then wanted Sam to leave the life. He wanted Sam to be at his side driving down crazy street. Then wanted to keep Sam safe. He was all over the place (and of course by he I mean the writing).

And Sam was given no dialog just excruciatingly boring flashbacks of a "romance" full of abuse and really bad acting. That was supposed to fill in the blanks of "what the hell Sam". The first half of S8 was suffering from schizophrenia. It was like watching a really bad tennis match. The ball was all over the place. Honestly it really isn't worth the debate.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-06 07:10
Alycat, Sugarhi was essentially spelling out in detail what you yourself said in your comment below:

Quote:
when he came back from Purgatory he was a lot more forceful as in if you don't like it, tough. He had less patience with dealing with anyone else's feelings.


and:

Quote:
In the past Dean would at least consider Sam's feelings, after Purgatory, not so much.
Whether it was PTSD or just that he was still amped up from a year of kill or be killed, Dean was pretty harsh towards everyone, but especially Sam, for the first half of S8. That phantom text ranks as one of the cruelest things either bro has ever done to the other. They've been tough on each other before but usually in the heat of the moment. This was a cold, calculating move that Dean KNEW (better than anyone else) was like a knife in Sam's heart. Even he later characterized it as "not my finest moment." I preferred Charlie's pithy description of it as a "dick move."
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-06 00:30
Sugarhi, I loved reading the post as it gave a detailed synopsis of the situation.I am still not very happy abt the season 11 promos.But you and Cheryl have given me fun posts to read .So Thank you.Hope I find season 11 better than the past three seasons
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-06 07:01
Sugarhi, I love the way you laid this out. The part thatstruck me was this:

Quote:
once he said goodbye, once he cut ties with benny, dean seemed to go back to being dean again.


And it's true. That was the beginning of what seemed to be a completely different season. When Dean said goodbye to Benny, he was putting behind him all of the Purgatory crap, and the brothers went back to being brothers.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-10-05 08:32
You make it sound like Dean was sitting there taking crap from Sam continuously without ever saying a word like some pathetic, browbeaten, hen pecked, weakling. Dean gave just as good as he got and then some in season 8. There was a REASON that Sam felt so inferior in season 8 and that's because Dean told him so, continuously. "Better Bother", "Deceived me from the moment you got into my ride?" "Only person who's never betrayed me." etc... over multiple episodes. IMO both brother's behavior was pretty bad at the start of season 8. Neither one was was especially justified or written well, and neither was especially likable either.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 14:06
No, when Dean returned from Purgatory he wasn't taking anyone's crap, especially Sam's. Dean was finally standing up for himself, less concerned with hurt feelings which was long overdue. I was glad to see it. I think that shift in their relationship threw Sam off quite a bit, he wasn't used to Dean not giving in. There was little power in the puppy dog eyes in that season.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-05 16:37
Quote:
No, when Dean returned from Purgatory he wasn't taking anyone's crap, especially Sam's. Dean was finally standing up for himself, less concerned with hurt feelings which was long overdue.
Alycat, I'm not trying to be rude, but what show have you been watching? That statement actually boggled my mind. Dean has virtually never, EVER taken crap from people. He has dished out more than he's taken by a factor of about a million. He has always spoken his mind and tried to order around not just Sam, but Bobby, Cas and almost everyone but John. He is bossy with a capital B. I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way, I think it's part of his take charge persona and one of the things that makes him a great hunter. He has always been much more of a leader than a follower. It has been Sam who has most often had to take Dean's crap, and rarely has he spoken up for himself since about S5. That is one reason I liked Southern Comfort so much, because Sam finally gave as good as he got. If you go back over the whole series, there have been many, many more occasions in which Dean has criticized and questioned Sam about his actions than vice versa. Exhibit number 1 is the MOC. Neither Sam nor anyone else has EVER criticized Dean for that foolhardy choice. Compare that to the demon blood and Ruby. Dean was throwing that in Sam's face through the end of S8, which is about 5 years in SPN time. One of the things I like about Dean is that he doesn't take crap from anyone, although at times he carries it too far. Honestly, I'm surprised that a Dean girl would think that Dean has been some hapless, submissive guy taking crap from everyone. That makes him sound like a loser, which he most assuredly is not.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 19:02
No, I know Dean doesn't take crap from anyone (besides Sam on occasion) but when he came back from Purgatory he was a lot more forceful as in if you don't like it, tough. He had less patience with dealing with anyone else's feelings. Going to see Benny when he called, not explaining about the relationship then just telling Sam he had personal business to attend to AND he took the Toblerone!!! In the past Dean would at least consider Sam's feelings, after Purgatory, not so much. Partially PTSD (like the interrogation where he used his tie and held the knife to the prisoners throat - that flash point) but also because his time there changed him.

Dean is bossy. Dean is the Alpha leader. He is the take charge hunter in most cases. The strategist in battle. It comes with the territory.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-06 09:32
When Dean takes charge it usually looks like in Fallen Idols. Hilarious. He also took charge in season 3. And how did it end? His taking charge in season 8? Sam is virtually dead, Hell Gates are still open. When he strategises it looks like in season 6 finale that is a full fiasco, and his strategising in season 9... But for Sam, Castiel, and Gadriel Metatron would have won.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-06 09:36
When Sam takes charge and strategising, for better or for worse he achieves his goal. Season 4. The goal was to kill Lilith. Done. Season 5. The goal is to take down Lucifer. Done. Season 9. The goal is to take down Metatron. His plan ultimately worked, not Dean's. Season 10. The goal is to save Dean. Done.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-06 17:37
Oh and the blood addiction and Ruby using him for her own means. That must have also been his strategy. Done.

And letting Lucifer out of his cage. Done.

Taking down Metatron while laying on his back by the Impala, out like a light, while his brother is taking on someone with the power of God. Done.

Season Ten, saving Dean while unleashing The Darkness on mankind. Done.

Great work.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-06 18:16
I think the point Disgruntled was making for better or worse when Sam strategizes he achieves his goal.

Sam did kill Lilith. Turned out that was the wrong thing to do. Who knew? Sam and the world paid a hefty price for that.

Letting Lucifer out of his cage wasn't Sam's goal it was Ruby's and Liliths and the Arc Angels and Castiels. Both Sam and Dean were duped on that one. Too bad Cas didn't go to help Sam rather than bust Dean out of the beautiful room. Or maybe don't let Sam out of the panic room to begin with.

Dean taking down Metatron while Sam was on his back. Are you saying that Sam was taking a nap? I remember that differently. Who knows what the two brothers could have done together. Because it sure didn't turn out well for Dean.

Saving Dean and letting loose the Darkness. Yes Sam achieved his goal. He saved Dean. For better or worse.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-07 06:32
cheryl42 Exactly my point. Thank you. :)
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-07 06:15
And letting Lucifer out of his cage. Done.
Oh, please. Stop it. To let Lucifer out of the cage it was necessary to break 66 seals, not only the last one. I don't want to play blame game here, but logically without the first seal Sam could kill Lilith as many times as he wanted. Oh, and killing Lilith was a bad idea? And what should they have done with her? To send her flowers and allow her to wreak chaos on Earth? Killing Lilith wasn't a bad idea, it was a bad idea to kill her after all the rest of the seals had been broken. And why did breaking all the seals become possible?
Cheryll nicely articulated the rest.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-06 17:31
Dean takes charge and the others follow nine times out of ten. That is their dynamic. Dean makes the tough calls and has to deal with the fallout, good or bad. He is the leader. He is the tactician. The strategist. The first one in. I have no idea what point you are trying to make with your backhanded comment. Season Three he sold his soul to save his brother. It ended the way it was supposed to end with his going to Hell. Sam's little friendship with Ruby and the resulting fallout was Sams move, not Dean's. Season eight? Sam's condition? It was Dean who initially wanted to close the gates but then Sam came on board. Dean wanted to be the one to take on the trials but Sam made that decision for him. Sam's being near death was due to Sams decision and actions to go through them, not Dean's. He agreed to shut the gates, he could have said no, or are we back to woobifying poor Sam again? Season Nine Cas never would have been able to get in and destroy the tablet if it weren't for MOC/Dean distracting and taking on Metatron in his suicide run. Sam was out like a light on the ground from the punch Dean gave him to keep him away and safe. Explain to me please, as to how exactly Sam singlehandedly saved the day?

.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-06 18:31
Sam's hesitation in closing the gates of Hell was that it was going to involve Kevin. Kevin would have to make an even greater sacrifice to get the job done. After going outside the church and talking it over with Dean Sam went back in to a) apologize to Kevin (yeah Sam no kidding) and b)to do the dirty work of talking Kevin into helping them close the gates.

Dean wanted to do the trials and yes Sam saved Deans' life by gutting the hellhound. Sam also wanted to do the trials because Dean saw it as a suicide mission. Sam wanted to live and make sure that Dean lived too.

Yes Sam, Cas and Gadreel's plan worked. Of course Sam had also expected to be at Dean's side but Dean did buy Cas and Gad enough time to destroy the angel tablet.

Like I already said though who knows how it would have turned out if Sam had been by Dean's side. Maybe Dean doesn't die. Maybe Sam does. The story went a different way.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-07 06:29
Dean takes charge and the others follow nine times out of ten.
May be some examples of successful Dean's leadership nine times of ten?
It ended the way it was supposed to end with his going to Hell.
and breaking the first seal.
Explain to me please, as to how exactly Sam singlehandedly saved the day?
Never said it. What I said was that: "Season Nine Cas never would have been able to get in and destroy the tablet if it weren't for MOC/Dean distracting and taking on Metatron".
was exactly Sam's plan, not Dean's and Sam's plan was also to turn suicide mission into a mission which had chances for success. And Sam was also planning to be near Dean, and share his fate and his risks, like they always had done in the past. And the fact that Dean decided to protect Sam this time doesn't seem to me as a good idea, though I understand and is sympathetic with his motives.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-05 08:58
Sam did not ask Dean or Benny to give up his life for him that was on both Dean and Benny . And frankly Dean had little trouble voicing his opinions of what a 'bad' brother Sam had been it was not a one way street with Sam just being 'pissy' at Dean.

I mean 'deceived my ride' what did that even mean ? no Dean was not slow in coming forward with his thoughts in season 8
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 14:14
Sam didn't exactly appear to be terribly grateful much less compassionate over Bennys sacrifice either. Benny didn't just allow Dean to behead him he also stayed behind for Sam's sake. But hey, at least he was cool that Dean buried his bones just in case, that was nice of him.
Sharon
# Sharon 2015-10-05 15:05
He did not have to be he understood what Benny did and offered to do but there was no need for anything else. Benny could of gone back but chose to stay in Purgatory because in reality that is where he wanted to be.
There seems to be this idea Sam is always suppose to be grateful regardless of the circumstances .

Benny did what he did because Dean asked him not because of any affinity for Sam . I get Benny,s popularity esp because of his relationship with Dean but why was Sam expected to conform when Dean has no such expectations put on him regarding Sam,s friends including the perceived monster ones .
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-05 16:42
Quote:
Sam didn't exactly appear to be terribly grateful
Was that before or after Sam saved Benny's life? Or before or after he made sure that Benny had a weapon?

You can spin it anyway you want. But what do you think was the writers intent? Did they want to show Sam as being selfish and jealous while doing the trials and saving Bobby's soul from hell or did they want to show Sam making peace with Benny and his friendship with Dean? I guess it depends on how you feel about Sam overall as to how you interpret it. Dean certainly didn't seem to show any animosity towards Sam. For the life of me I don't know why some fans do.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-05 02:27
I agree with you Cheryl .Did not see any jealousy.What I saw was Sam not trusting Benny ..as Dean had hidden him from Sam..which was entirely reasonable for Sam.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-02 19:15
Quote:
Benny and Dean had a truly unique relationship forged from being in a 24/7 360 degree combat zone relying on one another the entire time they were stuck in Purgatory. Benny won Dean's loyalty and visa versa because he earned it. I liked how Benny was supportive and cared about him. Also how he respected Deans hunting prowess, that he accepted him for the way he was, no strings attached.
Alycat if you take out the words "in Purgatory" and substituted "on earth", and substitute Sam's name for Benny's each time, I think it's an excellent description of Sam and Dean's relationship, not Dean's and Benny's. Dean's first move back on earth was to find Sam and he ditched Benny tout suite.


And I'm not sure where you get this from:
Quote:
Sam isn't used to playing second fiddle when it comes to Dean's affections.. Sam wants to be #1 in Dean's life but at the same time he resents it.


In terms of being second fiddle, Sam has calmly witnessed Dean develop "special bonds" with all kinds of people: Cas, Bobby, Charlie, Garth- with nary a hint of jealousy. I agree with Cheryl that there was no reason for Sam to be jealous because Dean chose to be with HIM, not with Benny, and he had in fact recently announced to Sam that this was where he wanted to be, in the car with Sam on crazy street (or something like that), etc etc. In that ep it was Dean whose nose was out of joint that Sam was looking into college. Jealousy is not a trait Sam had ever displayed and there was no reason for him to start feeling it now.

Finally, I don't get where Sam resents being #1 in Dean's life. He may resent the degree of control that Dean tries to exert over him, but I have never seen even a smidgen of evidence that he resented being Dean's #1.

I think Sam's hostile attitude towards Benny was triggered by the fact that Dean kept him a secret, and the fact that it made Dean a hypocrite for offing Amy. When Dean said that Benny was a better brother than Sam had ever been, that sure as hell must have hurt Sam's feelings, but also annoyed him because Dean was throwing the "not looking" into his face yet again.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 20:11
Quote:
I think Sam's hostile attitude towards Benny was triggered by the fact that Dean kept him a secret
But why would that make Sam openly hostile to Benny? What did Benny do to Sam? If Dean kept Benny a secret and that was upsetting to Sam, then shouldn't his anger and hostility been directed toward Dean?

From what I recall, Sam hated Benny on sight. It didn't make any sense to me. He then became obsessed with showing Dean that Benny was drinking blood and killing people. It was strange and completely OOC, in my opinion. I came to the conclusion that Sam was irrationally jealous of Benny, which I just took as more bad writing on the head writer's part. I have honestly forgotten his name, but yeah . . . Sam's whacky attitude re: Benny was just more crappy, OOC writing in my eyes.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-04 20:48
When Sam went to shake Benny's hand he felt how cold and dead it was. Sam thought that maybe Dean didn't realize that Benny was a vampire. He was ready to kill him until Dean gave him the signal to back down. That was my first impression of that scene and it really never changed. Based on what happened in the next episode my first impression was reinforced. Sam was angry because not only did Dean keep Benny a secret he refused to talk about him, at all. Sam didn't know what the hell was going on. Then Dean was possessed by the penny. And even then all he got was Dean going off on Sammy's failures. Not really anything about who Benny was and what he did for Dean. Just the better brother crap. Why? You got me.

Adam Glass is the name that escapes you btw. The only part of that episode that made sense was Sam telling Dean to back off about Amelia. "Either move on or I will". Jeez finally Sam. There was no reason for Sam to be jealous of Benny at the time (or really any time I thought) because Sam didn't know what was going on with him and Dean.

And in Sacrifice, after months of Dean helping him through the trials and Benny sacrificing his life for him Sam had no reason for being jealous anymore, if he ever had been. The guilt must have been overwhelming though.

At least that is how I saw it in real time.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 21:20
Sadly, the name that was escaping me was Jeremy Carver. Haha :)

I will trust your perspective on this episode b/c I only saw it once. I've never re-watched it. I just remember Sam shaking Benny's hand, reaching for his knife, Dean telling Sam to back down, and Sam just looking at Benny w/hatred in his eyes. I thought Sam's reaction was strange b/c Dean was essentially vouching for Benny by introducing Sam to him. Sam should know his brother would know a vampire when he meets one! If Dean is rolling w/a vampire, then Sam should instinctively know that that vampire is probably an "okay" one. Haha!

I don't recall the next episode, but I do remember them arguing about Dean lying about Benny. To be honest, I didn't, and still don't, consider this a lie. So, Dean didn't tell Sam about Benny . . . why was that a big deal? Maybe Dean felt bad about using a monster to escape Purgatory? Or working w/a monster since he hates them? Who knows? Was there ever an explanation? In any event, I didn't think Dean's "lie" was anything for Sam to be overly outraged about. And didn't Dean told Sam that Benny didn't kill people.

Basically, I saw a lot of this as contrived angst and conflict. I think the real Dean would have told Sam about Benny after they met, and I think the real Sam wouldn't have been so upset that Dean didn't tell him about Benny. I just didn't care for that conflict. It was stupid IMO. The writers had both characters acting in OOC way to push along that lame drama btw the brothers. Sam and Benny should have been cool w/each other.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-04 21:33
Benny had walked away from them when Sam looked at Dean completely furious with him. Sam had been scared half out of his wits because his newly returned brother was cleaning out a nest of vampires with someone he didn't know. He was driving in a panic to get there as fast as he could and he finds Dean with a vampire and no explanation. His look of anger was for Dean not for Benny.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 21:58
Ahhhh . . . . thanks for the clarification. It has been so long since I've seen that episode.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-04 20:55
lala, I think Sam's strong initial hostility to Benny was partly because he shows up expecting to meet a "friend" of Dean's and instead he finds a vampire. Given that Dean was never the one who was predisposed to accept "friendly monsters," I actually think Sam was shocked, and also angry that Dean had been so secretive about it. Moreover, Dean had gone off on this mysterious trip to help his "friend" and ended up putting himself in danger. I think the whole thing was very unsettling to Sam, and I think he was angry at Dean and hostile to Benny. I also think he didn't react well to Benny because Dean has been riding Sam about giving up hunting for a year, and now Sam learns that Dean has been befriending monsters. The same Dean who had killed Sam's friend/monster. And in terms of Sam having Martin tail Benny, I think it was for exactly the reasons he said. He himself had no reason to trust Benny, so he took the prudent step of determining to his own satisfaction that Benny was a "good" monster. Essentially, I think Sam's reaction was based on a number of different factors, but I saw no evidence that jealousy was a part of it. I won't belabor all of the reasons that I already stated, but essentially Dean had done or said nothing (at that point) that indicated Benny had replaced Sam in his affections, quite the contrary. And Sam was smart enough to recognize that. Also, as you stated, jealousy of Benny would be bizarre and completely OOC for Sam. Finally, I do agree that the first half of S8 was chock full of OOC, crappy writing. :)
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 21:51
But Sam has always been sympathetic to monsters. He has always been the one to not view them in a strictly black and white light. Sam has always been the one to try to get Dean to not view monsters in such a black and white way. Plus, a vampire that does not kill people is not a novel idea for Sam.

So, the way I see it is if Dean introduces Sam to a "vampire friend," then Sam should think the vampire is "okay" in some way. Yes, Dean returned from Purgatory but he didn't come back clueless to hunting or dumb to the life. Dean would have killed Benny if he thought Benny deserved to be killed. I feel the real Sam would have realized that and not been so angry about Benny being a vampire.

I also think having Martin tail Benny was just another step backwards in the brothers' relationship. Yes, back in S2, Dean was not sure if those vampires were really not killing people but in S8, I would hope Dean would trust Sam's opinion on a situation. And, yes, I know there was the Amy situation, but that was another lame conflict for the sake of conflict. I guess I just feel Sam and Dean should have been at a better place in their relationship, and it doesn't help that a lot of the actions and attitudes came off as completely OOC.

I do agree w/you and Cheryl that Sam is not jealous of Dean's friends, which is why I found his characterizatio n in early S8 to be OOC. For me, the writing portrayed him as jealous., but since that is false to his characterizatio n, I didn't care for it. But as you said, I will not belabor the point :)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-04 21:58
I agree samanddean10. You know I honestly cannot think of any episode where sam held hostility towards Benny. I certainly can name the moment of Sam's hostility towards Dean. Sam met Benny for a total of a second and realized his brother's friend was a monster. We then fast forward to the next week and we hear Sam tell dean he understands he did what he did with benny in purgatory, but why is benny breathing fresh air...why is benny not still in purgatory? Then Sam tells dean that he seems to recall that Amy, who was a monster, had to be killed....behin d his back no less.. rewind to the mentalist where Dean gives him this big speech about why he had to kill her and in the girl next door gives her a speech as well about monsters never changing, that she will kill, because that's what she is. You know what Dean's response to Sam is.....people change.... So Sam's friend had to die but Dean's friend is the exception and why is that? because Dean changed his mind...Sam wasn't hostile or jealous of benny, but I certainly think without a shadow of a doubt that he was pissed off at Dean for his blatant hypocrisy. Fast forward to Dean's speech while under the influence of the penny where dean once again reminds sam of how much of a failure he is. When Dean tried to blow off what he said by claiming not to remember(which I never believed and was confirmed when Dean told sam in sacrifice that he knew he said things that set him back on his heels, given that the only thing dean said to sam that would set him back on his heels is that benny was a better brother than he ever was) , Sam finally, finally fights back....and was it about Benny? no....he informed Dean of Amelia's name and where she lived and told him to lay off ....Sam was pissed that dean was ragging on him since the moment he got back , yet all the while he was the one keeping secrets and he had benny.....Sam's hostility is towards Dean, not Benny.....and yes sam mentioned that he might be the one to kill benny one day.... but not because he was jealous of benny or hostile towards him, but because like dean had told sam in regards to amy, sam might end up being the one to do it because dean can't or won't. it should be noted that sam said he might be the one who would have to....not that he would definitely do it.....and not because he's jealous, but because benny is in fact a monster.....;)

To illustrate more that Sam was not in fact hostile towards benny....he didn't go off and waste him like dean did to amy, behind his back...sam simply had benny followed. sam wanted to make sure benny was on the up and up like dean claimed. martin was to watch him only and then call sam if anything was up....if anything, sam gave benny more of a courtesy than dean ever gave to amy.....

Sam didnt' trust benny and he certainly would have no problem killing him if he had to....but he showed no hostility towards him at all...in fact, sam gave benny a chance which is more than any other hunter would've done That to me is the opposite of hostile or jealous.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-04 22:31
Perfectly stated, so much so that I can't think of a word to add. Shocker!:D
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-04 22:58
Yes exactly.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-05 07:27
perfect
E
# E 2015-10-02 12:23
Can't help but notice that the lions share of the "misses" are Sam's. It just goes to show how little consideration they gave either him as a character or his story arc in this season. His not looking for Dean made no sense and was not explained. His shaking up with Amelia did not make sense and wasn't justified adquately. His not looking for Kevin did not make sense and was not adequately explained. His jealousy of Benny did not make sense and was not adequately explained. Season 9 is even worse IMO and season 10 only really commited about five episodes to what Sam was doing/wanted/en during. For season 11 I want them to remember that Sam exists, that he's a good guy and that his motivations and POV need screen some time and some careful consideration. When Benny's motivations make more sense than Sam's there's a BIG problem IMO.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 20:19
I couldn't agree more w/you. Most of my S8 misses directly relate to Sam and the OOC writing for him in the first half. The second half of S8 was better but still lacking, IMO. The first 3 episodes of the second half were pretty good, but IIRC things went downhill after that . . . . at least for me it did. I liked the Prometheus episode but none of the others, and the only decent part of Sacrifice, IMO, was the scene btw Sam and Dean at the church!

I also agree that seasons 9 and 10 are worse. In fact, IMO, each Carver (that's his name - I had forgotten it in another post) season is worse than the previous one. Haha! I like fewer and fewer episodes with each new season. In this past season, I would watch AAB again, and that's it. I barely remember what happened in the episodes. My expectations for this season are low. That trailer intrigued me so I plan to record the first episode and read comments to see if the tide has turned.

You and I have similar thoughts on the show so I will be looking out for your review :)
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-02 15:58
While i agree jealousy played a part, it wasnt the only reason sam didnt trust benny. Sam is a hunter after all and a damn good one. Sam is known to empathize with monsters yes, but only when he could judge for himself,
Sam never got the opportunity to give benny a chance to earn his trust because he never got to interact with him. Lets not forget dean kept benny a secret for months...dean gave sam no information at all on what went down in purgatory either....and also dean and bennys friendship wasnt based on trust or loyalty....dean was bennys ticket out...and of course benny would ensure dean lived..otherwis e he wouldnt have gotten out of purgatory. Dean never shared that vital piece of info with sam....yes a bond was formed but never trust....if dean trusted benny why keep him a secret...and why didnt dean ever bring sam with him to help...after all sam is sympathetic. Dean deliberately kept them apart...so what is sam to think...as a hunter sam is going to wonder why dean has to sneek off in secret.....even with martin, dean couldve brought sam and chances were martin may have lived....but dean goes solo, leaving sam behind..and dean has a knife at the ready....so its not all rainbows and butterflies between dean and benny...dean was never sure with benny which is probably why he kept sam away...and i certainly dont believe he got rid of sam with that text to protect benny.....so yes sam was jealous and dean gave him every reason to feel that way, but dean also gave sam every reason not to trust in benny bynthe very fact that dean kept him a secret and always went off on his own..either by sneeking off or by going off solo on purpose....whic h i would think sam would question as to why dean would have to.
Mallena
# Mallena 2015-10-02 19:13
My immediate reaction to Benny was in my opinion was the same as Sam's reaction. The minute that Benny called Dean "brother", I went cold. Then I got mad and yelled at the TV, "He's not your brother, Sam is his brother!" I was so jealous for Sam's sake, that I can't watch any part of those first ten episodes that have Benny in them. His weird mumbly accent did not help either. I also fast forward during any part with Amelia and the dog. Jealous there too, I would die happy if Sam rubbed the top of my head. Heavy sigh. The only Benny part I like is when Dean cut off his head. Thanks Benny, I give you credit for saving Sam. Well done. Purgatory was okay, I wonder why some people thought it was so great. It was just Dean running around a dark and very expensive forest and killing bad guys, with a haircut that never changes. Did time pass there? What did Dean eat? Is there a barber shop? I liked Naomi because I'm a big Stargate SG1 fan. She was pretty good as an angel. More backstory, please.
Sam not looking for Dean or Kevin was because Sam just went through a horrible mental breakdown, and needed to believe Dean was someplace nice like Heaven. I don't like how Dean is so angry at Sam for going for an apple pie life, when that is what he told him to do. Bobby also yelling at him for that was mean, I thought. Empathy, Bobby! Later in the same season, Dean tells Sam repeatedly that he wants Sam to live. Have a normal life. I always thought Sam should have said at least once, 'So now it is okay to have a life of my own, but not before?' Don't get me wrong, I love Dean, especially his pretty eyes, but he was written pretty harsh in the first half. Big hit, all of the second part of season 8. Just love this show.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-02 20:22
That was so true. The first half of S8 all Dean did was ride Sam about quitting the hunting life. Leaving innocents to die....blah, blah, blah. Then all of a sudden Dean wants Sam to get out, to have a normal life, to grow old, have kids and chug Viagra. Well didn't Sam also want that? Now because Dean wants it for Sam it's ok but before it wasn't? I'm with Mallena here. Sam had that life. I wanted to shout at my tv when Dean said that. I think pillow throwing may have been involved. The two halves of S8 didn't mesh as well as it should have. I liked the 2nd half much better than the first.

Another hit for S8 was epic Sam hair.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-02 21:14
Cheryl it's a good thing you're not a soldier, then it might be grenades you end up hurling at your tv:D

Cheryl you make my point every time;); Dean needling Sam every chance he got about quitting the life...and then in the second half he does a complete 360? I don't think Dean ever was angry at Sam for living normal...given Sam did exactly what Dean had done back in s6. I think he used that as an excuse.. I still believe with every fiber of my being that the reason Dean held resentment towards Sam was because Sam didn't save Dean from becoming the monster Dean feared himself to be. Dean didn't suffer in purgatory, he liked it. He killed without guilt and it gave him pleasure. Dean always believed himself a killer and in purgatory he became one. Killing was necessary for survival, but Dean didn't just kill, he enjoyed the kill. In purgatory he had no conscience...no w if Sam had been in purgatory with dean, there's no doubt that they would kill to survive, but with Sam, I don't believe Dean would enjoy it...Sam has always been what keeps dean human...Sam wasn't there to keep dean human and Sam didn't get him out of purgatory, hence sam didn't rescue dean from himself. That's something he couldn't face or ever admit to....not until the werther project (thank you dean for validation:D).

as for Sam not looking for kevin....to me it makes sense because he was broken. The very fact that RT wanted to include that scene and it was disallowed by Carver is proof to me that we are right when we say sam had some kind of emotional/menta l break. Now why Carver wouldn't allow RT to give us a two minute scene like he wanted to after hitting the dog? I could only hazard a guess....my only thought it that perhaps he felt the impact of the season finale would be stronger for us if we didn't get "spoiled" and SEE what Sam had been through instead of hearing what he'd been through?

I mean it seems that Carver felt the implication was enough for us.....I guess all the hints and Sam's confession to Amelia that he IMPLODED AND RAN was enough of a mental image for the audience without giving too much detail and thus lessening his desired response from us...I mean that's all I can come up with....

for the record though...i'm with you and Thompson....I personally don't think the audience would've been any less impacted by the finale had we been allowed to actually SEE sam's anguish ....but it's all water under the bridge now....for now I think you should just keep a nice little pile of pillows close by every time you get around to your s8 dvd or you catch s8 on tnt....:D..i have a couple I keep on my couch as well..;):D
Mallena
# Mallena 2015-10-02 22:15
I hope Carver or whoever thought that the Amelia flashbacks was a good idea is embarrassed. I know that when my son gets to season 8 (he is on season 4 now) I am going to be embarrassed for him to see them and are going to have to have a long conversation with him about why they were included in the show. In real life, I expect it was cheaper to film those than action scenes of Sam hunting things to get clues for Dean's whereabouts. For character motivations, I agree with a lot of what you posted. Jealousy is a quick response that is rooted in deeper feelings. You made a lot of good points about why Dean and Sam might have reacted the way that they did after their different traumas. If only the writers trusted their smart fans enough to give us some real answers without spoiling the ending. Sometimes drama has to be contrived in a storyline, but please make it smart, not lame.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-03 20:49
I have to say Mallena, I kind of disagree about the flashbacks. Yes, some of them were excruciating, especially the first few because Amelia was pretty obnoxious and unlikable. Even when she became a more sympathetic character, the romance just didn't work because Jared and the actress had zero chemistry. But the thing I found intriguing about the flashbacks was Sam's portrayal. He finally had what he had always wanted, a normal life doing wonderfully normal things. But he just seemed awkward in that life. It reminded me of when he said to Dean in S 1 that even at Stanford he had felt like he didn't fit in. This was highlighted in the scene where he's at the park calling for Amelia and he becomes increasingly frantic, presumably because he fears something has happened to her. That is most definitely NOT the typical reaction of someone who can't find his girlfriend at the park. Then, when he finds her and sees the birthday cake, he stares as though he can't process what he is seeing; as Amelia says, as though he's never seen a birthday cake before. Probably his birthday celebrations had been few and far between throughout his life. The scene was touching, but also heartbreaking because it accentuated how grim much of his life had been, devoid of the simple pleasures most people take for granted, like birthday celebrations. Yet he never seemed genuinely comfortable in this "normal" existence, never able to truly relax and enjoy what he had always yearned for. So it came as no surprise that even when Amelia decided that she would leave Don to be with Sam, he chose to return to Dean. I enjoyed the fact that the flashbacks gave us this glimpse of what a normal life would look like for Sam, and some all too rare Sam POV.
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 20:28
What bothered me about Amelia and the FBs is they minimize the importance of Jessica in Sam's life. Sam had normal w/Jessica. I know Carver didn't want anyone to remember seasons 1-7, but they did occur and Sam had a great life w/Jessica. He loved her. She was the love of his life, not the awful Amelia. And I would think the 2/2.5 years he had with Jessica were better than the 8 months or so he had w/Amelia! Even in the FBs, they looked miserable!
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-04 22:18
I agree that Amelia certainly didn't seem like the love of Sam's life. They really were a mismatch. And maybe that's why Sam never seemed that happy. Nonetheless, I liked seeing Sam in that completely foreign setting of a "normal" life, and I found it kind of heartbreaking that he didn't really fit in. Dean seemed to adapt to a normal life with Lisa better than Sam ever did with Amelia.
BoGirle
# BoGirle 2015-10-02 21:31
You mean this epic Sam hair?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-02 21:45
Oh yes! It was magnificent wasn't it.:p
lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 20:23
Quote:
Another hit for S8 was epic Sam hair.
Yes! In the first half of the season, Sam's hair looked great! There was one episode where someone was eating hearts or something, and Jared's hair looked so good! It was just beautiful. I remember reflecting more on Jared's hair as "Sam" was interviewing people and walking around than the episode itself. Haha!
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2015-10-04 21:48
It was distracting wasn't it.


lala2
# lala2 2015-10-04 21:59
Beautifully distracting :)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-04 22:33
Now THAT I completely agree with!:)
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-02 22:08
Quote:
It was just Dean running around a dark and very expensive forest and killing bad guys, with a haircut that never changes. Did time pass there? What did Dean eat? Is there a barber shop?
Mallena, I cracked up when I read your take on Purgatory. I had wondered the same things about what Dean ate and why his hair never grew, and I also wondered how his clothes were not absolute rags falling from him after a year of constant battle. He's lucky he was wearing his sturdiest clothes when he got zapped to Purgatory!
Jen
# Jen 2015-10-02 19:28
Excellent replies everybody - before I say anything I must rant about 1 thing and forgive me if it has been spoken of already. In S10Ep2 when Sam eventually caught up with Crowely on the ph, there was one line that even in my re-watch I can't stand, - Crowely on the ph to Sam. Moose it took you long enough - we were beginning to think you hit another Dog. Why even say this Crowely knew how much he tried to hide from Sam, we know Sam tried soooooo hard to find his brother. my words just aint polite to write here.
I can't say I didn't like S8 because I really didn,t understand it (until I read and learn from WFB)

1/ Ameilia & Sam two broken people getting together for Love & Comfort then when Ameilia gets her husband back Sam gets Dean back (sort of )
2/ Sam enters the cabin after smiles & hugs gets totally abused by his brother
3/ Dean in that fierst ep. gets to explain some of his anger Sam zip
4/ The unatural abuse toward same at every chance and the constant referal to Hitting a Dog
5/ Benny I understood if given half a chance Benny may have played a on-going ally for the boys
6/ Why OHHH why didn't they let Sam explain his complete break down and saddness and total despair in some way.
As everybody said it did start to come good second half, but as I said even in S10 they still bring up bits of S8. Loved grandpa Campbell / Love the bunker / Naomi a bad bitch angel - who was in cahoots with Crowely glad she got knifed. I think the thing I found difficult was most of the season was so out of character to the Winchester way and in no way did Dean or Sam get a chance to explain their actions or feelings. Whether in a back flash moment or a Bro moment it was left up to us to work out If I started watching SPN at S8 I may not have bothered to go back and watch from S1 - it just didn't explain itself. And alot of fans don't have the benefit of knowing about this great site to get some perspective of the Eps or Seasons Thank you WFB love to all xxoo
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-02 21:41
Oh chuck yes bogirlie and can i add yum....as far as sam hair goes...season 8 wins hands down;)
Anna
# Anna 2015-10-04 10:10
I'm with you on this Cheryl. ;) Sometimes when I post I want to say (and usually do:D) too much at once and sometimes, as I can be forgetful, I can't think of the right word...it's like on the tip of my brain, but..well you know...I said that jealousy was a part of the reason, but it wasn't .....it wasn't about jealousy for sam...not ever imho, it was about inferiority. He felt inferior to benny and cas because he'd already been racking himself with guilt and dean didn't help of course, for failing his brother....yet again. Even sam keeping promises seems to be the wrong thing to do. It's most likely why we got such a desperate Sam in season 10.

Sam has basically always done what Dean wanted. It's always been Dean he regarded as his father figure. It goes all the way back to the Pilot. Yes Sam went to school, he ran from his father and the life...but Dean shows up and tells him he doesn't want to do it alone...Sam's out the door. What really sealed the deal for me was Bloodlust....I remember when Sam had stopped the car and demanded info from John. John commanded him back in the car and Sam kept telling him no. But Dean told sam to get in the car, just once, and in he went. Sam may have outwardly showed at times, like when possessed in asylum, that he was angered by dean telling him what to do....but yet that anger stems from the fact that Sam usually does what Dean tells him to do because he regards him so highly and more like a father. (hope that makes sense)....

Sam following Dean's wishes...end result there was Dean becoming a chew toy for a hell hound. This nearly destroyed Sam to the point of trying to get himself killed by Lilith. It was only Ruby who, regardless of ulterior motives, ended up saving his life. Both boys were equally responsible for raising Lucifer as both boys had been manipulated by angels (including Cas) and demons alike. Dean started it all by breaking the first seal, sam breaking the last....but it was who ended up taking the blame and it was sam who jumped in the pit to make up for his mistake. not once did sam ever stick deny his role nor did he ever share blame with dean...even though dean knew he was just as much to blame. Point is that there is precedence for Sam feeling like a failure and inferior...sam told dean that he was the least of everyone.

Given all that the boys went through...all that sam's experienced personally and been told....seeing first hand the damage that can be caused....learn ing from mistakes...
dean confessing that what's dead should stay dead
bobby coming back as a ghost, slowly turning vengeful, then telling them that when it's your time to go...go
dean selling his soul by bringing sam back
john selling his for dean
soulless sam killing innocents because he had been taken from the pit ( I think there's plenty of guilt once sam got his soul back and it seems plausible to me that sam would've felt he'd been better off if soulless sam had been killed instead of saved)

With all of this, sam's emotional/menta l break and losing the only person who sam's been able to keep it together for he imploded and ran as he confessed to Amelia. Sam being Sam and always abiding Dean's wishes lived through the grief of that loss because he kept a promise to Dean. And Dean's displaced anger that he took out on his brother.....res ults once again in Sam feeling the failure and a disappointment to the one person he never wants to fail or disappoint. It's why he took on the trials. It's why he didn't care one way or another if he died from them. After all, once again, Sam felt like the least of them....:(:(

In season 10, for the first time like ever, Sam is doing what he wants to do. This time he's not listening to anyone, especially Dean. The more Dean tells Sam to leave it alone, the more Sam doesn't believe Dean really wants it. I for one agreed with Sam. I don't believe Dean wanted anything but being saved...when Sam told dean at the bar that Dean was good and crying to be saved and it was the MOC that was controlling him, I felt Sam to be dead on balls accurate....and yet even sam getting up to this point, standing his ground, fighting to save his brother while his brother pummels him to the ground.....sam does what he always does when it comes to dean....he abides his wishes.....he falls on his knees, tells his brother that he will never believe him to be anything but good and with sam's unwavering faith that he's always had in dean gives him the pictures knowing without a doubt that dean will in fact love again.....

it's always been how sam has showed his love for his brother....he's always done what he believes dean wants. sometimes that meant letting dean go....but by letting dean go, he got to keep dean.....his brother's keeper....and sam's love allowed dean to beat the mark, to keep sam...his brother's keeper. ;) guess that's always been the way of the Winchesters and always will be....:D
Anna
# Anna 2015-10-04 10:13
damn it won't let me go back and edit my mistakes. :P
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-04 11:25
Dean didn't break the first seal he was the first seal.
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-04 11:51
that's not true. dean was not the first seal. the seal itself was a righteous man had to shed blood in hell. Alistair told dean that it was supposed to be john Winchester, but he wouldn't break. Dean was plan B. Lilith's death was the final seal. her herself was the seal. sam killed her thus allowing Lucifer free. Any righteous man could've broken the first seal, it didn't have to be dean Winchester....a nd like Alistair said, originally it wasn't even meant to be dean...john was the one originally intended on breaking the seal....that didnt' make john the seal...it just made him the righteous man who could do it. he was after all the only righteous man in hell at the time.

dean asked cas..did I start this and cas said yes. he told him that it wasn't about blame, but that the one who started it had to be the one who ended it. it was Zach's intent the apocalypse begin and always zachs intent that dean would be Michael's vessel and thus end it bringing paradise to earth. Both sam and dean were pawns as they were both meant to start and end the apocalypse and both were meant to be Michael and Lucifer's vessels.
AlyCat22
# AlyCat22 2015-10-05 01:18
Too tired to go.into it so on the seal point we will have to agree to disagree. ;)
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2015-10-05 03:12
Quote:
that's not true. dean was not the first seal. the seal itself was a righteous man had to shed blood in hell.
agree
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-05 04:58
It was not even a righteous man spiling the blood in Hell, it was more of the fact of spilling blood by any righteous man.
"And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell. As he breaks, so shall it break".
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-05 12:00
When I was watching the first half of the season I couldn't shake the feelling that it's some parody on the show I liked so much.
I’m not going to be cute, I’m going to be snarky.
Episode 1 should be called A Feral Dean and Domesticated Sam. Holes in the plot are of the size of the clock of Copenhagen Tower. I will leave out the whole concept of “not looking for” (really? it was the same person who had said that people don’t disappear, other people just stop looking for them?), but two seasoned brave hunters are running for all they are worth from Crowely leaving an innocent girl in his hands. [Here should be facepalm]. So much for “killing things, saving people…
Episode 2 should be called Desperate housewives. Poor woman. She might be saved, and a demon was already running from her, but unfortunately for her in her life she met with our fearless heroes with capital H. [Here should be facepalm]. So much for “killing things, saving people…
Episode 3 should be called Headache. At least it was what I felt when watching this episode. Dean remembered that about “ saving people…” After the first two episodes that was simply hilarious. [Here should be facepalm]. People die when Sam is eating apples? Really? Do they stop dying when Dean is eating pies? Another facepalm.
Episode 4 No comments. SPN turned into a show about good monsters and evil humans, envious to them. Facepalm.
Episode 5. Was is SPN or a spinoff of Twilight? A hunter running with a portion of human blood to a vampire? Facepalm.
Episode 6 should be called Showdown in Little Tokyo, or Much Ado about Nothing. There was one bright moment though. Sam remembered that he has some dignity. Better late than never.
Episode 7. One more victim of our fearless knight in the shining armor though. A possessed civilian, who could be saved. A captive in Mrs. Tran car. But who still pays attention to such trifles now? So much for “saving people”…
Episode 8. Hunteri Heroici. I really liked it. Good old SPN I used to love.
Episode 9. Good vampire and Bad Hunter. Wow, it crowns it all. You know, since that moment when a monster kills a hunter during the hunt, it is called a self-defense. Poor old SPN, and poor Daddy John spinning in his grave..
Then out of the blue it again turned into Supernatural again, but I still don't know what it was in the first part.
Barbara Maake
# Barbara Maake 2015-10-05 16:43
Disgruntled, please keep your comments coming. This one cracked me up, especially this part:

Quote:
People die when Sam is eating apples? Really? Do they stop dying when Dean is eating pies? Another facepalm.
I had similar feelings about the first half of S8, and your version of it is more entertaining than most of those episodes were.
disgruntled viewer
# disgruntled viewer 2015-10-07 06:43
Thanks, samandean10. But, seriously. I just can't take this whole Benny story without loughing out loud. A romantic love story between a vampire and a human girl? Seriously? It's Twilight, not SPN. And it's after Dean Winchester and Sera Gamble ridiculed this story so wittily in season 6. And the same Dean now is wiping his "a single man's tear" while listening to this nonsense? Oh, Carver, please, please, give me a break... And now we have the whole thread discussing why Sam was so suspicious of a vampire? I just don't know what to say... Maybe, just maybe... And I'm simply spitballing here... because he was a... VAMPIRE???!!!
sugarhi15
# sugarhi15 2015-10-06 10:08
Alycat, im sorry thats all you got from my post. You seem to believe im attacking dean and im not. I didnt make up all of deans actions..we saw them for ourselves...wha t i am trying to get across here is that there was a reason for them. I believe ive said that both sam and dean were broken, just in different ways.

No matter how much you try to make me look like im anti dean, you couldnt be more mistaken.....iv e written numerous posts in the last three years explaining what i believe to be the reasons for deans excessive and sometimes harsh behavior...and whether you believe me or not, seasons 9 and most especially 10 validated what ive been saying since dean returned from purgatory. Dean's issue of self loathing has played a significant role in his ending up a demon....and the first step down this path began with what he became in purgatory...eve rything he believed himself to be...a killer.

Im not placing blame on dean in these posts, im only giving a play by play of what we all saw .....all i tried to do was put it in perspective. Things were said, but its not black and white, there are circumstances that clarify the why.

It seems to me that you feel sam shouldve trusted benny on deans mere sayso...why does that rule apply to sam alone? Dean doesnt trust monsters on sams say so....thats a pretty double standard you follow...and while sam usually trusts dean without question, deans behavior when he got out of purgatory didnt paint a picture of a stable brother.

And when dean brought the machete or knife, he had it hidden behind his back and benny requested he put the knife down.

Oh and if you ever watch the deleted scene in taxi driver, dean asks benny if he killed and benny tells dean not to ask questions he doesnt want the answer to...

Regardless of not seeing that scene...we were given hints by bennys scenes that he has been killing...once benny drank martin, whether we got to see it or not, once he drank a human, theres no going back...just ask lenore.

This discussion has reached an impasse. I just wanted to clarify my post's actual intent...done and done:)