I have to admit, I dismiss a lot of what's written about "Supernatural" at Zap2It.  A lot of the so called "journalism" is twisted to create controversy and bolster site hits.  This latest article, Have Dean and Castiel Been Acting Out of Character, is no exception.  It sounds like Carina MacKenzie took some quotes from the panels at the Jus In Bello convention this weekend in Rome and twisted it out of context to serve an agenda.  An agenda that hints an outright rebellion against a script and she has the exclusive right there.    

This kind of talk at cons recently has been nothing new.  I know, I've been at the last few here in the US.  We've been raising the issue all season long about the inconsistent and out of character writing this season on this site, but we found the actors have mostly been defensive of the creative process.  Jensen at his meet and greet at Chicon in October said this about how he dealt with out of character moments involving Dean and Sam:

Next question: Is there ever a time when you read a script and you say to your character, “Dean! What are you thinking?”
 
Jensen: “All the time. Seriously, I would say more specifically usually it’s just certain lines. We get new writers. I’m not quite sure what the number is, but I know that every year they have to take at least one outside submission, so basically it’s someone who has never written for the show. I mean obviously they understand the show because their script got picked, and it’s a good script, but it’s just that sometimes the dialog isn’t really true to character. So I’ll either sit down and rewrite the lines to fit it to Dean or just call Sera or Bob and say “Hey, this particular scene doesn’t sound like Dean at all. What do you think of this? That’s happened maybe twice this year. One of the scenes was between Jared and I, Sam and Dean, in fact I think it’s the next episode, it’s the end scene. We have like this falling out. We have an argument. And I kid you not; the scene was like straight out of a romantic comedy. It was like a break-up between a woman and a man. Right out of a romantic comedy.  (Laughs from the fans) And Jared and I were in the make-up trailer that morning and I hadn’t really read the scene before then, and I was like “Dude, we gotta change this! This whole thing” So he and I sat there and rewrote the scene to make fit it, to make it closer to our characters. And we didn’t even tell the producer. And then it happened again two episodes later, there was another scene and we were like, “What is happening??” And that time we finally called Sera and said we’re changing the scene. Actually we’re changing the entire scene but it all says the same stuff. It’s just a different way of saying it. I think one of Jared’s lines was when I go to move toward Sam and he goes “Don’t! Just don’t! I can’t even look at you right now!”

The Zap2It article seemed to be digging specifically at outgoing showrunner Sera Gamble and her gender, using comments from Misha Collins (which cannot be taken seriously at cons) and jokes by Jensen Ackles.  Jensen in every interview I've ever read, and the one that I got to do with him,  had nothing but total respect for Sera and the creative team.  Here's a serious quote about scripts taken from Jensen at his meet and greet in Rome, the very same con: 

Fan: Have you ever had problems with a script that you don't agree with and how to make it work for Dean?
 
Jensen: Not really. It would be less like trying how to make Dean do this, like directly changing the script to make it *be* Dean. When we come against a scene or dialog that doesn't sound right, we change it and make it proper to the character. So I'll never had a hard time figuring out how to make Dean do something because we will just change the script if it doesn't feel right. 
 
 
It probably isn't shocking that there was a problem with that Dean/Castiel scene in "The Born Again Identity."  However, it also sounds like it's nothing new and they worked out the dialogue like they traditionally have and had a few laughs doing it.  I know Jensen in the past has made lots of comments about how he'll give suggestions to the directors, especially ones like Robert Singer who he's worked with for a long time.  I still smile in recalling how the big hug at the end of "Mystery Spot" was Jared and Jensen's idea and wasn't in the script.  

Clarissa from TV Overmind was at the convention, and her report slanted a more at the less controversial side:

During day 2, both Jensen and Misha mentioned they thought the scene from episode 7.17 where Dean gave Castiel his coat back was a little ridiculous.  But a fan brought up the scene again today during their panels again today.  Jensen said: "Misha and Bob Singer, who was directing that episode, we were crying-laughing at how ridiculous it was that I had his jacket nicely folded in the trunk of the car...and not even the Impala, but a stolen car.  There was no reason for the jacket to be in the trunk of that car.  And Bob was like 'just do it, alright?!'  Then we started saying the dialogue out loud and it...it was so bad.  There was a line [Misha] said that he couldn’t get out because it was so ridiculous, so we changed it.  [The trench coat] was so perfectly folded with the tie and the collar and Bob’s like ‘can you present it so we can see what it is’ and I was like 'no!  No, I can’t!'  Know that we have problems shooting scenes sometimes."
 
Later, during the joint panel, Jensen explained that the line was "so out of character", they couldn’t get it out.  The dialogue would have basically indicated that Dean petted the coat.  They had to completely change it.  "We asked ourselves how we could have changed it around to make it more believable for these characters."  They think that two men probably wouldn't have gone on like the conversation did.

Notice how there's no digs in there about Sera Gamble being a woman?  I'm hoping that someone who actually attended Jus In Bello con can tell us if Carina MacKenzie is indeed going for sensational journalism or if she raises a good point.  In the meantime, this sounds like nothing more than an amusing story that can be told at cons being once again taken out of context from the wrong purpose.  This isn't the first time it's happened from these cons, and it won't be the last.  For now, consider this to be another cautionary tale.  Don't believe everything you read.  

Edited: Here's the video of the whole thing (Thanks GeordieGirl1967).  Judge for yourself, but Jensen's comments were DEFINITELY taken out of context.  Seems that only half of the story was told in the Zap2It article.  






 



Comments  

Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2012-05-01 20:47
My biggest beef with this article is not the allegations and twisting of words out of context so much as it is a gender slam in the Zap2it piece.

So Sera Gamble is a WOMAN. So what. That has NO merit on her writing or style. None. To imply that it has any basis for any dialog is highly offensive.

What's even stupider is this article is written by a woman.

It seems that every Con has some incident like this that has no place.
Alice
# Alice 2012-05-01 20:54
I've met Jensen Ackles several times and interviewed him once, and I'm sure Carina has met him more. He is not a woman hater. He's the farthest thing from one. I'm so mad that this article would imply that they think that way. It's wrong on so many levels. Jensen has had nothing but total respect for Sera. Jared too. This is just total bullshit.

I get so mad that The CW keeps rewarding this writer with exclusives for Supernatural when this is not the first time she's taken a Jensen quote out of context and created a derogatory article from it. I'm disgusted that she dare associate herself with this show and claim to be a fan.
Far Away Eyes
# Far Away Eyes 2012-05-01 21:04
I have no doubt that this is totally taken out of context. I can't imagine that Jensen or any other cast member would truly hold such views.

I think it's ridiculous that they get this access to put out these articles when more deserving press can be found at other big name sites OR better yet fan sites.

Such a shame.
LAS
# LAS 2012-05-01 21:11
Unfortunately, Carina is friends with the CW PR person ( Suzanne Gomez?), so I think she's a bit protected.

Carina clearly writes stuff to stir up fandom and hits to her site. In this article, she has a number of things wrong and taken out of context. The line Jensen and Misha were talking about does not appear to have been filmed, so, it's not the line that was edited out of the episode. Also, Robert Singer, who was the director of the episode agreed with Jensen and Misha, so it wasn't that that the actors made it difficult for Singer, he agreed with them.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2012-05-01 21:20
Quote:
The line Jensen and Misha were talking about does not appear to have been filmed, so, it's not the line that was edited out of the episode. Also, Robert Singer, who was the director of the episode agreed with Jensen and Misha, so it wasn't that that the actors made it difficult for Singer, he agreed with them.
This is true. The writer of the article is getting 2 scenes mixed up. I made this point in the comments below the article.
Jane Ray
# Jane Ray 2012-05-02 00:08
I suppose everyone has heard the nickname "Craply Mack" for this writer?? Ironically, an ECG told me that nickname. A lot of Casfen, including me, won't page view her articles. I mean Why? Someone more reputable will share what's real. Her name is crap with many.
Julia G
# Julia G 2012-05-02 23:10
Saying sexist remarks doesn't mean that you're a woman hater. And Jensen definitely said sexist remarks. He talked about Sera being a girl. Was that him or Misha that talked about the dialogue being "effeminate" or gay? Jensen and Misha's remarks were full of offensive material! And I really think that saying that the dialogue was "so bad" is disrespectful to Sera, especially that she's now gone.

One last thing: I'm happy that the actors fight for their characters. I don't have a problem with anything that happened in relation to that particular scene or other OCC dialogue. My problem is internal matters being discussed openly at cons and in interviews. The actors are paid a lot of money for what they do, and part of their jobs is to support everyone associated with SPN. We shouldn't even know that there might be problems with the dialogue and I really think it was unprofessional of Jensen and Misha to criticize the writing in public. And it's not the first time either. I'm tired of it.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-05-02 23:47
I disagree that what he said was sexist though. He was not saying a woman can't write for a man. He was simply stating that it made sense that these particular lines (and we don't know what they were because they changed them) sounded effeminate because they were written by a woman. Saying that someone is a woman is not a insult. It was a off the cuff statement. He didn't say Gamble was a bad writer, he's expressed appreciation many times for her writing. He simply didn't think that scene fit the characters.

Now Misha is Misha. He always talking out his ass. He did say was the gayiest scene SPN ever. But wasn't saying gay as in gay=bad. He was saying it as gay = homosexual. And let's face it. It was a little. I don't think that was Gamble's intention. But it did definitely have a little bit of that flavor even in the edited version. So who knows what was in the orginal script.

But both actors said it as a funny story. The same as they told the Robbie Thompson anecdote. If there had been some huge issue they probably would have kept it to themselves, but since no drama really occured as far as they were concerned why would they care. This was just one thing out of many that happened on set. Not a state secret.
Julia G
# Julia G 2012-05-03 00:26
We'll have to disagree on what we consider sexist. A line sounding effeminate because it's written by a woman is as sexist as it gets, but it's just my opinion. Women can write guy dialogue and men can write women. Right?

About airing set happenings in public, look at Alice's title for this thread: she's wondering if there's a writing problem at SPN. Even if it's the case, we shouldn't know about it, certainly not from the actors working on the show.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-05-03 12:16
Jensen has never suggested there is a writing problem on Supernatural. Ever. As is her right, Alice has her opinion on the writing, but she stated in her article the actors have never complained about the writing overall this season. Jensen has said several times he thinks Death's Door is the best episode of the series and that Sera has done a good job as showrunner.

All Jensen has done is talk openly about times when *a line or two* didn't sound like "Dean" to him--and he has the right to that opinion. The powers that be on Supernatural listen to Jared and Jensen about their characters because Jared and Jensen care very much about keeping true to them.

As far as being sexist, Jensen had exactly the same concerns with Robbie Thompson's ending scene in Slash Fiction. I think the video makes it clear his actual point is that Dean is not a touchy feely guy who freely talks through his emotions. In his opinion, women are more likely to work through disputes like that, while men are more likely to use actions. I don't think there's anything particularly sexist about that--there are reams of self-help books out there about different communication styles.

Jensen probably should watch every word that comes out of his mouth to be as PC as possible, but it's not that easy to do when performing stand up comedy in front of an audience, which is what he and Misha were doing and doing well.
Mickey
# Mickey 2012-05-01 23:54
Last year, a San Diego State University study revealed that only 15% of primetime female writers are women. A whopping 85% are men. The last thing we need is people unjustly targeting the few we have.

http://www.aoltv.com/2011/09/08/women-television-producers-decline/

The funny thing is Bob Singer is co-showrunner. He's a man. He revises all the scripts. Robbie Thompson is a man, and he wrote the scene Alice quoted from the October Chicon. Making this into a sexist thing is just ridiculous.
Alice
# Alice 2012-05-02 00:23
I remember that article! My dear friend Mo Ryan wrote that and shared that with me before she published it. She is so in tune with these kind of issues. Thanks for sharing that. It was so well written.

Actually, Bob Singer doesn't touch the scripts. He leaves that part of the job to Sera. It will likely be Jeremy Carver's job next season. But yes, Robbie Thompson wrote that other scene. You're right, the sexist thing is ridiculous, no matter who does what.
purplehairedwonder
# purplehairedwonder 2012-05-01 20:57
I dunno, I took issue with a quote that came from the TVOvermind article: "And Bob was like 'just do it, alright?!' Then we started saying the dialogue out loud and it...it was so bad."

It came across as throwing the writer (and this is true whether it was Sera or Ben Edlund or a new writer) under the bus in front of a lot of people. Maybe the dialogue was bad, but it doesn't seem right to slam it (and the showrunner of the last two seasons and a writer who has been with the show since the start) outright in a public sphere.
Alice
# Alice 2012-05-01 21:02
Yeah, but you got to understand, a lot of these stories are told at cons in a lighthearted context. I'll see if we can find a video clip of it, but I'm not convinced they were throwing Sera under a bus. They could have just been telling the story of doing that scene. I guess my point was, unless we were there, we don't know what they were implying.
LAS
# LAS 2012-05-01 21:16
I've seen the video, they were not throwing Sera under the bus. Jensen praised Sera in this same response, but even excellent writers aren't perfect 100% of the time and they can and do write some clunky lines.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-05-01 22:28
I think it's clear in the video no one intends to throw Sera under a bus and that Jensen had no intention of mentioning her name at all--the fans insist on naming her. Jensen immediately starts to give Sera props as a writer. But he doesn't change his tune about the dialogue not having the right tone for Dean and Castiel and personally, I agree, if what was written was even more romcomish than what was aired. I really like the relationship between Dean and Castiel, but the dragging the coat from car to car was ridiculous, and I'm glad the line about always being sure Cas would come back was cut. Sera's a wonderful writer, but no one's perfect.

At other cons, Jensen had exactly the same kind of story to tell about Robbie Thompson's Slash Fiction ending, so this idea that he's slamming women is way OTT. He's just finding what he hopes are amusing stories to answer questions he's had 10 or 20 times before.

Man, it's really too bad people like Carina Mackenzie make it dangerous for the actors to interact with fans.
LAS
# LAS 2012-05-01 22:37
Thank you for confirming what I thought, that neither Jensen nor Misha originally mentioned the writer's name. They were talking about a line of dialogue, not the whole script, nor the writer him or herself. I don't think they would have mentioned the writer's name either because it was not relevant to the topic, which was specifically about just one line.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-05-01 23:07
No, they didn't--the fans start asking who the writer was. Jensen hesitates, clearly not wanting to go there, but other fans yell out Sera's name. He immediately gives Sera praises Sera as a writer to make it clear he's not making a judgement on that.

His point about Sera being a girl is just that he thinks the dialogue in that scene talked about emotions explicitly, while he thinks Dean is the kind of guy who would be way less verbal. He and Misha also acted out the scene from this perspective and they were laughing at it and themselves as much as they laughed at the romcomish dialogue.

It doesn't surprise me that something as poorly thought out as Dean carrying the coat from car to car led to corny dialogue. The coat was important, but once the boys left the Impala behind, they were obviously stripped of a lot of important things in their life.
purplehairedwonder
# purplehairedwonder 2012-05-01 21:18
Without having seen a video, I can't make a fair judgment, sure. It probably didn't come across in person like it reads since tone and intention aren't obvious just in text. That was just how the quote read to me and it took me off-guard since these guys are usually so professional and supportive of the people they work with. I really hope everything is being blown out of proportion.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2012-05-01 21:28
Quote:
Yeah, but you got to understand, a lot of these stories are told at cons in a lighthearted context. I'll see if we can find a video clip of it, but I'm not convinced they were throwing Sera under a bus. They could have just been telling the story of doing that scene. I guess my point was, unless we were there, we don't know what they were implying.
Here is the video of the panel www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVW0saTl3lY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Judge for yourselves. I think too much is being made of it in terms of indicating behind the scenes strife. I think the journalist is trying to stir up trouble.

IMO its significance is in what it reveals about J and Ms attitude to Dean and Cas's relationship. Many fans (both those (not including me) who think they have a deep bond, and the shippers) are upset by what J and M said here because it shows very clearly that they believe their characters to be straight, and that romantic-soundi ng, gushy dialogue between them would be ooc. This isn't what the shippers want to hear at all.

If Sera is guilty of anything it is of trying too hard (beyond what was credible for the characters) to throw a bone to the Cas/Dean fans.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-05-01 22:21
I do think that SG was trying too hard to give the Dean/Cas fans what they want. Jensen stated that he made the acting decision to pick up Castiel's trench coat after Cas disappeared. Cas is SO identified with his trench coat so once we knew Dean had rescued it, SG probably thought it was a natural thing for Dean to give the coat back to Castiel when Cas remembered who he was. This would have been fine if they had been in the Impala and Dean hadn't thrown it out. With them switching cars each week it just looked silly, IMHO. I understand the thought behind the gesture, but SG didn't think out the logistics of the gesture.

Oh, well, even the best writers make mistakes.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-05-01 22:43
Thanks for the video link. Hilarious, as usual.
Well, Jensen did say something like ''the writing was feminine" which in context I took to mean that the dialog didn't sound like something two guys would say to each other. I didn't get any sense that it went any deeper than that.
I can't imagine that anyone, shipper or no, would think that Jensen & Misha would ever think that the characters were anything but straight.
Jane Ray
# Jane Ray 2012-05-02 00:18
All sorts of fans will have all sorts of reactions.

None of my Cas fan friends were upset about "lack of gushy dialog". But they wondered if Jensen's comment meant that he didn't think that Dean would have kept the coat. Would Dean have chucked it in the trash?? Dean keeps things.
Anyway, it wasn't clear what Jensen meant.

Plus, they agree that there's been overreaction on Tumblr, and CraplyMack's article sounds way off base, which isn't news.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-05-02 00:24
I'm pretty sure it was Jensen's idea to pick up the coat. I think he said that was not in the script. His problem with it was the dialogue and also the fact the he had carried this thing around with him and transferred it from car to car instead leaving it in the Impala or at Bobby's.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-05-02 08:17
Yeah, it was Jensen's acting decision to pick up the coat and fold it to keep it at the beginning of the season. It wasn't scripted. The con remarks were just about lines that need tweaking because they don't sound true to the character and Misha had as much problem as Jensen with the scene as originally written.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-05-03 23:57
He chucked the amulet in the trash.

But I don't think that's what he meant. I think he meant -why would Dean have it with him at that moment in the stolen car of the week? He wouldn't, it doesn't make sense that he would haul it around with him - it would stay in the trunk of the Impala. But obviously they wanted Cas to get the trenchcoat back so . . .Dean had it with him.
Vini B.
# Vini B. 2012-05-04 02:24
This.

http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/archive-articles/39-opinion/17085-is-there-a-behind-the-scenes-problem-with-the-writing-on-supernatural-.html#comment-29877
Freyja
# Freyja 2012-05-01 21:01
Sadly there are going to be some hardcore Dean/Cas fans that will agree with her.

Far Away Eyes, said it the best, I agree with her 100%

I never read anything by Zap2it to be honest after the last time they took what Jensen said and twisted it around.. I've learned never to trust them after that.
Trudi888
# Trudi888 2012-05-01 21:03
Thank you SO much for saying this, Alice! I was flabbergasted when I read Carina's article. From some of her past stuff, I get that she's not a big Jensen fan, which is her perogative as an individual. But as a "journalist", Carina has an obligation to be as unbiased as possible. This reads something I'd find in a gossip tabloid. It sure as heck doesn't reflect well on the PR department for continuing to give her such preferential treatment.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-05-01 21:43
I've actually watched this on youtube and when someone asked who wrote the episode. Jensen hesitated a little and eventually said Sera. Then he did go on to say that that would make sense, because she is a woman (the fans at the con had already said they loved the scene) so I got the impression he was defending the writing by saying that it obviously appealed to women but for guys it was a bit much. They were totally laughing at the dialogue in the scene and the fact that Dean had moved it from car to car. But there was nothing disgruntled about it IMO. Although Misha did say earlier in his panel it was the gayiest scene on supernatural ever, but he joke something like some people are into that or something. It was actually one of the funniest panels I've ever seen. And there was nothing mean spirited about it IMO. They were both laughing really hard throughout almost the whole thing.

And I did kind of agree with them when I saw the scene it was pretty sentimental and dragging that coat from car to car is un-Deanlike. But there attitude was if the fans are happy....
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-05-01 22:24
Thank you for writing this Alice. The implication that as a woman, Sera can not write a show like Supernatural has flown around before and it makes my blood literally boil. How mindlessly stupid.

I have also watched the YouTube of the panels where this was discussed and at no point was Sera being thrown under the bus. On the contrary Jensen defends her and speaks highly of her as a writer. He also complimented her on being able to take the show on from the end of Kripke's 5 year arc and move the story forward in a new direction.

As you say Alice, these cons are loose and fast and the guys were having fun. I was at Jensen's Chicon meet and greet when he discussed the romcom break-up dialogue in the scene with Jared and I also reframed that same question at Jensen's Burcon meet and greet to point more towards action than dialogue and he was very clear that he has faith in the writers and their skills, it's just sometimes when the words are said outloud by the character, they don't ring true and it's then and only then they change them. He actually said he has never challenged a plot point or character arc.

This is not the first occasion I have found reporting inflamatory on the blog being discussed here. There was an article last week stating that when season 8 is confirmed it may well be confirmed as the final season. I had multiple concerned fans asking me my thoughts on this and I told them, how the hell would that journalist know that. That was probably said about 6 and 7 too! It's a grab for readership at its basest level but it sends waves through the fandom that are both worrying and damaging.

If we aren't careful, this type of commentry in the media will force the guys to be more guarded at conventions and none of us want that.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-05-01 22:41
I think that's the saddest part of this. The guys had a lot of fun at JIBcon from the looks of all the videos and reports, but now they'll have to think damage control and being very guarded so nothing can be taken out of context and twisted to suit an agenda. Hello, sanitized cons.
Alice
# Alice 2012-05-01 23:24
I read that too about season 8. Both Jared and Jensen at LA con said that they see the show going beyond season 8, at least 13 eps for season 9. So I don't know where she's getting her intel, but I haven't heard that from anyone else.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-05-01 23:31
Yep I was there when they discussed the possibility of a 13 ep arc for 9 at the minimum, but I think it's telling that at JIBcon3 Jensen was openly discussing Jeremy coming onboard for 8 and looking forward to discussing season 8 and possibly 9 in the coming months.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-05-01 22:24
YALL REALLY DONT WANT ME TO GO OFF ON THIS BS.

I AM FROM THE SOUTH & WE..... FRAK THAT. I READ THIS SHIT EARILIER & I DO NOT KNOW JENSEN, BUT I SAID HE COULD NOT HAVE SAID THAT!!!

U KNOW WHAT, I AM TO OLD TO GET THIS UPSET. I LOVE THE SHOW, AS I HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY I WILL RIDE OR DIE FOR SPN.

MAYBE THIS IS WHAT THEY WANTED. I AM ALSO INTO POLITICS,AND THE ONE UPMANSHIP THAT GOES ON IS UN-FRAKING-BELI EVABLE.

I AM JUST SO GLAD THEY GOT THE COAT CLEANED. *_*
THANKS GUYS. I GET CHEST PAINS WITH BULLSHIT.
LAS
# LAS 2012-05-01 22:24
Of course Carina skewed Jensen's comments, before she became a " professional" (and I use that term loosely) blogger, she was a regular fan of Supernatural and she was part of a group that used to post rude and mocking comments about Jensen..
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-05-01 23:44
for real? Damn, that's actually utter bullcrap.
I think I'll stop reading anything and everything she writes; and unfollow her twitter, too.

A "professional" indeed.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2012-05-01 22:41
It didn't sound like a dig at Sera at all. Also many times a scene will be rewritten while a show is being filmed because what's written doesn't work.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-05-01 22:58
Yeah, in "The End" commentary, Kripke and Edlund were talking about how they had gone off on this whole "time is cyclical" rant and Bob Singer had to pull them back. Gamble is an incredible writer and I loved that episode even if that one scene could have been left out or rewritten IMO. But like Jensen said a lot of time things don't seem as bad until they are said out loud. That I'm sure has happened to every writer at some point. But Jensen and Jared both have said Death's Door is one of their favorite episodes ever. So I don't see the big deal that they had problems with one scene of this episode.
Pragmatic Dreamer
# Pragmatic Dreamer 2012-05-01 23:02
For what it's worth, this is my perspective...

I work in radio and the key line in all of this comes from Jensen, when he says "When you say/read it out loud"...

I can't tell you how many times I have written something, and just been incredibly impressed by what a beautiful job I did. And then, as I am reading it live on the air, I suddenly realize - to my horror - "This is not how real people talk!!! This is not what we say to each other!!"

I start cringing for myself, and for anyone listening.

There is a huge difference between what sounds good on paper, and what sounds right when it is actually spoken.
And believe me, I have been called out on the issue both publicly and privately.

I don't think either man meant to be disrespectful. I think they meant to show how challenging it is to create and maintain a cohesive episode + storyline when you have SO many people contributing.

I also imagine that they might have been filming the scene late at night, when everybody is that extra bit silly & goofy. When you're already tired, you get giddy and that could also be a contributing factor to laughing at the line, and just as importantly how they remember the event.

It's worth noting, Jensen goes on to praise Sera's abilities. And acknowledge that maybe men & women express themselves differently. (Which, I reluctantly admit, is often quite true. I used to do some speech writing, and you always had to remember the gender of the person ultimately delivering the speech )

I'll end by saying that one of my greatest fears (because I work in the news & information gathering business) is to be accused of taking someone out of context. That accusation can burn so many bridges and so much credibility.

What's worse is it makes people that much more cautious when talking to the media. (Which makes my job so much harder.. )
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-05-01 23:17
I totally agree with you there. I write promos and sometimes what I write in the script sounds so awesome witty on paper and then when the VO guy reads it to pictures it's simply dumb.

My main take out of this kerfuffle is that I don't want this kind of misinterpretati on to lead to more guarded conversations. That would be a tragedy.
Michelle Kinseth
# Michelle Kinseth 2012-05-01 23:49
Quote:
For what it's worth, this is my perspective...

I work in radio and the key line in all of this comes from Jensen, when he says "When you say/read it out loud"...
Yes. Not quite the same situation but when I write any fanfic (snicker, snicker) I ALWAYS read my dialogue out loud to make sure it sounds natural. ALWAYS.

I didn't find anything in the panel offensive to me as a woman, or to Sera, especially when Jensen made it a point to address Sera's definite talent as a writer.

I really do feel men and women do, GENERALLY SPEAKING, address emotions and things differently and sometimes a woman writer can have a harder time channeling a man. But I can count on one hand the number of Sera-written episodes that have even alluded to something "less than manly" (or whatever the PC way to say it is). She rarely does stuff like this.

Also, I kind of really disliked that whole trenchcoat scene. So that's on my list for sure.
Mickey
# Mickey 2012-05-02 01:30
In my broadcast classes in journalism school they taught us to always read our scripts out loud as we're writing them, a trick that came in very handy when I went to work in radio later on, after a few years in print. Writing words that will be read and writing words that will be spoken are two entirely different things.
Mindy Hild
# Mindy Hild 2012-05-01 23:05
I've read both articles and watched the video. I don't see anything where Jensen or Misha were attacking Sera. As a woman myself, I can understand that our dialogue would be different in tone. Also, things that read well on paper don't always work out on screen. For example (and I am in no way comparing the quality of these two things), there are some lines in the first Twilight novel that are cute (if corny) but that sound utterly ridiculous in the movie. I imagine it was a situation like this that happened with this scene. Everything I've ever watched or read from Jensen (and everyone in the cast and crew really) has been respectful. I personally can't wait to see him in person at Dallas Con and it would be a dream to sit down in an interview or meet and greet.
Ann
# Ann 2012-05-02 10:28
I agree with you Mindy and don't understand the uproar about the article. I saw nothing in Corinna's article that came across as an attack on Sera Gamble or women writers in general. I will admit, however, that if I'm watching a show about mainly female characters, I prefer that the writers be female because they have the proper perspective. On the other hand, I very much prefer the early seasons of SN when the show had a certain grittiness to it and the characters were tougher. I can't help but think having a showrunner who was male had something to do with that. Granted, the female writers in the early seasons, including Gamble, infused the show with a great deal of heart which gave the show a good balance of grit and sensitivity but the overall vision and direction had a much more masculine feel to it which I personally prefer.
Mickey
# Mickey 2012-05-01 23:08
In the same clip above, Jensen and Misha are making fun of Jared for answering "You're welcome" to a fan who said "Thank you for being so amazing." What they were saying about Sera's scene was in the same funny teasing tone.

These guys tease each other all the time for their foibles. Nobody's perfect, people goof up sometimes, and they laugh about it. That's all they're doing with Sera. You can be the best writer in the world and still flub a line once in a while. (As others have said, I think she was just trying to give the fans the trenchcoat moment they wanted.) They were just laughing about it, as they do with each other's human imperfections.

They did the same thing when they felt Robbie Thompson's script was romcomish at the end of Slash Fiction (which they also talked about this JIB con, saying it was written like a couple breaking up instead of two brothers arguing), and Robbie is a man. Both Jensen and Jared have said they thought Death's Door was the best episode of the series, so obviously they have high regard for Sera's talent as a writer. In his Saturday solo panel Jensen praised Sera's work as showrunner. I haven't read Carina's article directly because I don't want to give her the page hit and help her plan of provoking page hits succeed, and I won't give her page hits in the future either.
sandra
# sandra 2012-05-01 23:28
You probably should read the article and make up your own mind. I did and it didn't seem the author was saying anything negative about Jensen, Misha, or Sera. The one line that people seem to be having an issue with is Jensen saying that Sera was a girl. Which he actually said. It wasn't said as an insult, and it wasn't reported as being said as an insult. So I have no idea what the purpose of any outrage is.
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-05-01 23:52
I read the article. I think the author knew that ending the article with "And no, this one was not written by a girl" would convey a negative tone to the way she reported what the guys said. She was incorrect in what dialogue she said the boys had an issue with (the filmed but cut line was actually one they came up with, the original dialogue was never filmed) and she left out all the praises Jensen gave to Sera as a writer.
Mickey
# Mickey 2012-05-02 01:23
I did read it. I thought it failed to properly convey tone and context. (And I say this as a journalist.) For starters, the headline is misleading. "Have Dean and Castiel been acting out of character?" sets us up to believe that Jensen and Misha have a problem with how their characters are written in general, all season long, instead of in just one scene.

There is also the failure to include any quotes where they say positive things about Sera. And that panel was a laugh riot and a tease fest, but it comes across in that article as two guys complaining and criticizing when in reality they had turned it into a comedy routine. She used the words "he joked" once after the " she's a girl" quote but that's not enough.

I commented over there: the way this is written leaves it open to interpretation that Jensen and Misha have a problem with Sera's writing and the fact she is a woman, which isn't at all the case. It was just one scene, and they were just laughing about it.
Julia G
# Julia G 2012-05-02 23:25
It wasn't an insult, but being a "girl" was said in the context of her job. It doesn't matter if they were joking and having fun. Its' clearly sexism. Maybe I'm overreacting to this, but I don't think that Sera has received much support since she's been showrunner. Jensen was commenting on her challenges managing the budget at VanCon before season 6 even started and then basically complained all year long, and he's the major star of the show. And he's complaining again. I just feel bad for her. I wish the actors showed more respect for the writers in general, in public at least.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-05-03 00:08
They've also talked at past cons about questioning Kripke on a few things and have joked about Edlund. And he recently mentioned Thompson. Why was no one up in arms over them? If they were mean-spiritedly making fun of her, I would have a problem with it. But to mention ONE scene was so girly as to be amusing isn't sexist. And they take what little time off they have and go to these cons- just for fans. I don't want them to feel like they have to weigh their every word and that they're going to have every side comment picked apart. Because if that were me I would simply stop doing them rather that deal with that. I not giving him a free pass, but this level of scrutiny is ridiculous.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-05-02 00:00
Not only Jared, I watched the whole hour earlier today. And someone brought a old resume of Misha's and they were both on the floor laughing at how bad it was.
Mickey
# Mickey 2012-05-02 01:24
That was hilarious! :D
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-05-02 01:34
I know, right? It was one to the funniest thing I seen at a Con ever. Jensen and Misha were crying they were laughing so hard-completely infectious. "acting on camera" HA!.

Here's the link if anyone wants to see clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHpRj5wbE4c&feature=share
Alice
# Alice 2012-05-01 23:19
Okay, just because I'm preaching fairness, here is Carina's explanation for the article. She replied directly to me on Twitter.

"I just thought it was interesting because I really liked that trenchcoat scene and sometimes the behind-the-scen es stuff is fun to highlight."
Gerry
# Gerry 2012-05-01 23:34
To my eyes, though, the article was written to be inflammatory, not fun. The quotes she chose, how she edited them and the way she ended the article were intended to get a reaction.
Alice
# Alice 2012-05-01 23:57
I do agree. I should note, my question to her that prompted that answer was because she told me the video link was in her article. I asked how she could get what she wrote out of that video. That was the answer.

This isn't the first incident. That's what's so disgusting. How does this promote Supernatural? This show deserves so much better than this. Her article will get fifty thousand hits or more and people who don't know this show like we do will believe it.

The same thing happened when EW did horrible piece back in season four about them wanting to end the show in season five. You don't know how many people for a year that casually knew the show brought that up to me. It took me a lot of breath to set the record straight.
Freyja
# Freyja 2012-05-02 00:01
Totally agree Gerry,

This isn't the first time she's done that, and I don't think it will be the last either.

Thank you Alice for clearing this up :lol:
Bookdal - Linda
# Bookdal - Linda 2012-05-02 01:18
Thank you, Alice, for writing this response to Ms. McKenzie's article. I did read the article in question, for the purpose of understanding your response, although I have not given her page a hit in over a year. I understand that many like her writing style, and that's fine. I am not particularly enthralled with it, since most of her writing (and not only her but many others on zap2it) depend on personal exchanges with writers and actors rather than on a journalistic point of view, but I have for a long time doubted whether Zap2It really considers itself a journalistic enterprise. It has more often than not come off as a surreptitious branch of public relations for whatever show its journalists find worthy of watching or following.

Yet, there are several issues I see that were brought up by this article. First, the convention experience, to my mind, is a different animal altogether from a journalistic interview or a piece of television criticism. The types of stories and anecdotes that are shared at a convention would not be couched in the same way, I think, if say Jensen Ackles were giving an interview and were asked by a journalist what his professional impression of the Cas/Dean storyline was. At a convention, he has a particular audience and he's answering them in a way that would most likely entertain them. A convention is a performance. Second, making backhanded criticisms about a show's storyline based on apocryphal commentary, such as Ackles's and Collins's schtick, undermines the work that the writers do more so than whatever the actors say in jest. Even if you take the commentary seriously, at worst, it can be seen as a bumbling critique by the actors and at best, it's their lighthearted ribbing of someone they know well, and from all accounts (and given the very tongue in cheek flavor of The French Mistake) the Supernatural set would appear to be full of self deprecating humor.

I guess what I'd like to say is that the original article did not take seriously its own critique. It was a way to get hits because it riled up fans who are the most likely to get riled up, and that makes me doubt even more the site's commitment to responsible reporting.

Thanks again for the article, Alice.
NOLANOLA
# NOLANOLA 2012-05-02 02:22
U KNOW WHAT, I AM TIRED OF THE HEARSAY. WHAT THE FRAK EVER. WE CAN NOT, NOT, NOT LET THIS DISTRACT US FROM OUR FAMILY.

WE KNOW WHO WE ARE, AND WE KNOW WHY WE DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO. WE ARE SPN FAMILY.

DEAL WITH IT ASSHOLES, WHOMEVER IS READING THIS OTHER THAN SPN FAMILY.

DEAL WITH IT PEOPLE. STAND TALL. WE ARE SPN !!!!
C.J
# C.J 2012-05-02 04:42
Jensen explained a little bit more about their problems with the scene in his solo panel (around 40 minutes in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfa3j4ZZUMI.

Also, during his solo Saturday panel, he praised Sera: (...)I do give Sera [Gamble] credit for the last two years in continuing the success of the show and the quality of the show and putting her own signature on it and making it a bit different." (http://www.tvovermind.com/supernatural/supernatural-jib-con-jensen-ackles-jared-padalecki-misha-collins-jim-beaver-and-more/)
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-05-02 08:02
I think what Carina wrote was intended to create controversy, otherwise she wouldn't have included the whole context of the quotes from both actors.

But I also think that Carina lacks some basic writing skills. Not too long ago, Carina did an interview with Jensen and Jared and in the text of the article she had a quote from Jensen in one paragraph, in the next paragraph she had a quote from someone she referred to as "he" and then in a third paragraph she had a quote from Jared. So, since Jensen was quoted in the first paragraph, you would assume the quote from "he" in the second paragraph would be Jensen, but if you watched the video contained in the article, you clearly see it was Jared who made the comments from the person Carina labeled as "he."

It's basic writing and composition that if you change speakers, you need to put names with the quotes, you can't use "he."
cd28
# cd28 2012-05-02 08:45
I'm not defending her, but that sounds like an editing error. It's common for editors to move something around and not go back and read the full context and realize he or she created an error.
Vini B.
# Vini B. 2012-05-03 18:01
That's utter BS.

As any writer worth their 2 cents knows, reading the entire thing once you have written it is a must, so as to avoid confusion and/or enticing reactions similar to the writer's.

If as you say, the writer of that piece did not read the article while it's primary editing, which again every writer worth 2 cents do, then she should retire and never pick a pen in her life ever again.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-05-02 08:03
Sorry, my previous post should read "otherwise she WOULD HAVE the whole context..."
Freya
# Freya 2012-05-02 08:06
The problem is that now, many website already put in the same topic article in their site. I just saw one of them recently
Clarissa
# Clarissa 2012-05-02 08:32
Hi All!

I saw my friend Alice's article and I thought I might as well jump in as one of the people who was in attendance and covered the con. The main point of Jensen's discussion was that there was one particular line of dialogue that the boys didn't really like. They just had problems with the fact that they didn't believe two men would likely exchange that kind of line. In terms of Sera's name being brought up, I can actually understand Jensen's comment about her, although it wasn't really meant to be derogatory. I think, as a woman myself, that she threw in a line that may have been a bit more "emotional", if you will, that the boys just didn't think was really in character.

That doesn't, in any way, denote that there's any trauma behind the scenes or the actors don't like the writers or even that Sera is a terrible writer, because none of that is true. So she wrote a "bad" line...so what? The boys have talked about changing around the "break up" scene at the end of "Slash Fiction" because they weren't really happy with the dialogue. As someone above commented, sometimes what's written on paper might not translate well when spoken aloud.

I love a lot of Sera episodes and I am very excited to see Jeremy Carver put his own spin on the show as well. I don't think we should worry about quotes that are misinterpreted. The con was a good one...you should all watch the Misha resume scene. That was the funniest thing I've seen in my life :)

Clarissa
Mickey
# Mickey 2012-05-02 14:08
Hi Clarissa!

You're right, it didn't suggest bts trauma or that one bad line means she's a terrible writer. The problem is when the tone and context aren't portrayed properly, it's open to interpretation, and some fans when given the opportunity to interpret will interpret the hell out of it.

Case in point, I just saw a post saying that scene was a "deal breaker" and Sera had been "blacklisted" from ever writing for the show again and that's why the boys felt free to criticize her like that.
elle
# elle 2012-05-03 05:37
He's certainly one hilarious Appalachain clog dancer who can act on camera....
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-05-02 10:38
Thanks for pointing this article out. Personally I don't read a whole hell of alot of stuff from journalists about SPN, WFB is pretty much my one stop, so if you point something out, then I will read it. Don't get me wrong, some of it has really opened my eyes, but if it is negative, I usually just disregard it. I think this is true of pretty much all journalism, you have to read anything a little removed, so much is taken out of context.

I only ever watch the cons on youtube and from what I've seen, Jensen & Jared are always very positive about all people involved on the show. And yes, they do joke around alot, that's what makes it fun. So everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I really don't think Jensen would have dissed Sera Gamble and her writing as being too "girly". Honestly I haven't had a chance to check out the video, but I will later on.
Jenny
# Jenny 2012-05-02 15:22
Quit making Jensen (and Misha) the victim here.

Jensen said what he said about Sera being a girl. Carina just reported it. Jensen and Jared and Misha and all the other actors know that what they say at conventions gets spread through fandom like wildfire. They also know anything they say is fair game for anyone to discuss or report on. They know they are being recorded.

The only dig about Sera being a woman is a direct quote from Jensen and Carina specifically says that he was joking.

I really don't see what you are so upset about.
CJ
# CJ 2012-05-02 15:28
Thank you Alice for sticking up for Jensen.

Carina certainly seems to have her own agenda not least of which writing controversial articles slanted against popular character/actor s to get hits and comments, nevermind it might cause friction between Jensen and people he has shown obvious respect to in the past. Jensen has a reputation for being an old-pro and it's a shame someone can write an article that stirs up people against him.
elle
# elle 2012-05-02 19:15
Coming out of my exam cave to add my two cents here (possibly echoing something already said): In my opinion it is very obvious from the way J says (to paraphrase) "it would make sense because she's a woman" is NOT a sexist comment. The simple fact is in all probability you could easily take a scene like that, in similar background, put two women and a line like "I guess I always thought/hoped/k new you'd come back" would work (notwithstandin g relationship of characters etc) because, in my experience, females are more prone to speaking to one another this was and emoting, particularly in their relationships with each other. Two guys on the other hand, especially the blue-collar, backwoods, rough-and-tumbl e type like Dean Winchester? Slim chance. Though there is a similar exchange when Sam gives Dean the amulet back in Lazarus Rising (and no, I'm not suggesting the amulet and trench coat are akin, or that they aren't, or that Sam/Dean is as close/the same as Dean/Cas - just making a point that a scene of similar nature and intent worked in that context).

Additionally, anyone who has ever had to write a speech and then deliver it, or anything of the kind, should be able to appreciate that somethings look great on paper that absolutely do not translate out loud.

I loved the trench coat scene myself, and thought no dialogue was exactly the best approach. It makes me sad to see out and out mockery of the moment, but to each her own. What makes me sadder still, is that (again in this viewers opinion) some fans on the video seem to deliberately drag this out...for the purpose of trashing Ms. Gamble?....or it almost comes across that way - to me.

Anyways - to wrap up this rambling - it isn't cool to trash Jensen, or really anyone who is a part of that great team. Particularly given how open and generous they have been with the fans over the years. Critical analysis/examin ation of something with a constructive end is one thing, but I will never understand the motivation behind throwing someone into the mud, or the sheer joy and pleasure that some seem to derive from it.

Thank you for the video and article to clear up the context of that other article!
Laurie
# Laurie 2012-05-02 23:33
I appreciate your clarifying the facts in this, Alice! That zap2it article implied Jensen and Misha were chauvanist. It doesn't matter that the dialogue and whole scene was cringe worthy, and that they were right to change it. As for Jensen, he has said, more than once, how much he admires Sera, and thought Death's Door one of the best if not the best script of the series. That's a heck of a compliment, for a "chauvanist."
tiptoe39
# tiptoe39 2012-05-03 06:56
I am a fan, but I have no interest in protecting either the actors or the writers if they say something wrong. I think there is a legit complaint here about worrying that the actors shouldn't be trashing the writers in public. In any other industry, that would be dangerous. You will never catch me saying something bad about the newspaper I work for in a context where I could be quoted.

THAT BEING SAID... I think it's important to remember that this is a bit of a cult-of-persona lity situation. The behind-the-scen es look, the warts-and-all approach (god, that's a lot of hyphens!) -- these are the things that draw fans to cons, that make them feel closer to the stars and to the show and make it special. Maybe what Jensen said wasn't the most enlightened thing in the world. Maybe, going back, he wouldn't have said it. And maybe, if pressed, he'd apologize. But this isn't a presidential campaign, and I think creating a situation in which con guests have to really watch their words would take all the crazy magic out of the con experience and turn it into just another press conference.

These guys traffic in earthy, raunchy humor, in laid-back comfort, and, yes, in gender stereotypes. It's part of the experience, and nobody promises an offense-free atmosphere. It sucks that Jensen said something that wasn't very politic, but I wonder how much of this microscope-view ing will do anything beyond rile people up further.

I guess this was a bit off-topic. I suppose I just want to know what the upshot will be of all this.
Dot
# Dot 2012-05-03 07:34
Thank you for giving this perspective. The zap2it article seemed to distort on many points. I wasn't at the con but I've watched the panel video pretty carefully. Jensen praised Sera Gamble's writing, and Jensen and Misha didn't seem to be to be knocking her ability as a writer. There was some joking about the lines being too shmoopy (my word choice) because it's from a female writer but since Jensen and Jared also talked about rewriting scene from a male writer that seemed too soapy, I doubt they really believe that being female is a reason a writer can't write men believably. But I felt there was some linking of the writer's gender to why the lines didn't seem gritty enough.

The zap2it article seemed to expand and run with the jokiness about a woman writer and IMO exaggerated the degree that Jensen and Misha went there, along with distorting what Jensen and Misha were actually taking issue with re: the contents of the scene. We do know it was Jensen's idea for Dean to keep the coat, but maybe Jensen didn't know the intention was Dean would carry it from car to car, he thought Dean would store it with the Impala. (Personally I found the fact that Dean did carry the trenchcoat from car to car perfectly believable and poignant but that's just my opinion).

Since SPN specializes in male emotion, I'm feeling this was more about the specific wording of the line not the fact that strong emotions were being expressed.
Vini B.
# Vini B. 2012-05-03 20:03
I spent the past hour reading comments on both sites, here and the other one. And the author of the other site, Ms. Carina seems to have taken something jokey and fun and turned it into a veiled assualt on Sera Gamble "through" Jensen.

That said, I highly doubt, whatever the hell was implied in the ep., that Dean was carrying Cas' trenchcoat with him everywhere about. (Don't get me wrong. I am a diehard Destial shipper and even made a big deal of it in my recap... had Shakespeare's sonnet dedicated to it, no less) But as someone who has gotten to know Dean for the past 7 years, I can say Dean's having that trenchcoat with him when he went to see Emmanual was NOT out of char.

Dean is the sort-of guy who applies more value to objects associated with the person than to the person themselves. It is his way of protecting himself from being hurt. Also it's his way of coping with their loss. His dad's journal/jacket, his mom's car (if u recall the Impala was John's gift to Mary), Sam's amulet, Bobby's flask - he pretty much carries his family's memorabilia with him all the time. So it's but natural for him to carry something of Cas' with him. That said, after losing Bobby to death, and stashing Impala and finally losing Sam to crazy, it's quite possible he turned to the only "family" he had left... Cas' trenchcoat... and carried it with to Emmanuel's (from his house, whence he found out about Emmanuel) as something familiar. It was a sheer coincidence that Emmanuel turned out to be Cas and the coat, turned out to be more than just his reminder.

Also, the scene in the ep. would have been OOC if Dean had said anything. Dean is not the kind of person that talks - Sam, Cas are - Dean shows. His handing Cas the coat back can be compared to him handing Sam the demon-knife back in "The End". It's his way of sayinh "I sure as hell ain't gonna forgive you just yet, and it's gonna be long long time till I trust you again, but I'm willing to give you a second chance. I want you to be by my side in this."

Anything ekse would have been cheesy and forced. Downright slashy. I am glad it turned out the way it did. If I wanted slash tumblr/l-j offer some of the best, I dont need the show to go there too.
Anna B.
# Anna B. 2012-05-03 23:16
I think this has been blown way out of proportion. I read the Zap2it article and found nothing to be offended about in terms of the author's writing. It's true that when you take Jensen Ackles' comments out of the context of an adoring fandom who would laugh good-naturedly at anything he said, they seem more offensive. He says that they had to re-write the coat scene in a way to make it more believable between the characters, and that's fine. But then he says that Gamble wrote it and that "makes sense because she's a girl." Then he says "She's an amazing story-teller BUT sometimes the language she writes for the guys, sometimes there are some effeminate lines." He quotes Collins as saying a line Gamble wrote was "gay." He takes a story about a single scene and turns it into a comment on the show-runner and her entire writing style. And he discredits her because she's a girl and writes like one, according to him. After all, that scene wouldn't have needed to be fixed if it had just been manly in the first place.