Welcome to our newest experiment, the Let's Discuss threads! The idea is to focus the discussions and topics out there and let burning subjects that are on people's minds to have their own dedicated place.
By request, we're opening up a discussion thread on papa bear himself, John Winchester. There are a lot of unresolved feelings toward John, so here's the place to voice them!
I'll start with a few topics of discussion, but feel free to add in your own topics, too. Anything John-related is fair game in this area!
** How do you feel about John as a parent? Do you think he did the best he could or do you think he wasn't a very good parent?
** What do you think John would have done if he had found out about Mary's history as a hunter?
** How do you feel about the deal John made with Azazel in order to save Dean's life?
** John's need for secrecy is one of my personal issues with him, but do you think it was warranted? How do you feel it did or didn't affect his sons?
** In what ways are Sam and Dean like and unlike their father?
** How do you think his character was affected by information about him that's come to light in the past seasons, especially in regards to Adam Milligan and the events in "Dark Side of the Moon"? (John leaving Mary for a time.)
In your comments, please be aware of our rules. Otherwise, this is a free form discussion where all comments are welcome. If there are other topics that you'd like to see in "Let's Discuss," send your suggestion through the "Contact Us" section.
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I have always hoped that somehow they would be able to see their father again. I think that the older they get maybe they will be able to see what he did for them and why.
John may have done the best he could, but he still wasn't a good father. No one intends to be a bad father. He was overwhelmed after Mary died, but leaving your young children alone while you go hunt monsters is bad parenting. I've often said that John was a good man, but a bad father because his dedication to the cause of finding the YED and hunting evil saved lives, but overtook his ability to be a good father.
What do you think John would have done if he had found out about Mary's history as a hunter?
I'm not sure he didn't find out at some point. We learned that the Campbells were big name hunters, who had hunted for generations and had libraries and who pretty well died off after Mary died. John was looking at all kinds of resources and I can't imagine he didn't find out about Mary's heritage at some point. But even if I'm wrong, I don't think it would have affected him much after Mary died. John was secretive and didn't play well with others as a hunter and knowing that Mary had been part of the hunting world would not have changed much.
How do you feel about the deal John made with Azazel in order to save Dean's life?
I think it was both loving and cowardly. John acted like any loving father who would do anything to save his son's life. John expected to be tortured, I'm sure he didn't know about the demons being people thing.
But John was also a coward. John knew that Sam was in terrible danger from the demon. He told Azazel that he knew everything, but we really don't know if he did know everything or just thought he did. In any case he thought that Sam might become so evil that he would have to be killed and he put that burden on Dean. John's deal was both loving and horrific for Dean.
John's need for secrecy is one of my personal issues with him, but do you think it was warranted? How do you feel it did or didn't affect his sons?
John's secrecy was very damaging to both Sam and Dean. He taught them to constantly live lies. This has led to their major breaks. Sam kept his desire to go to college a secret and got kicked out of the house when he made it happen, instead of being able to talk about his wants and needs and having John let him go with less hostility. Sam kept the demon blood secret which led to his downfall, partly because John's actions taught him to never tell anyone anything. If John had been honest with Sam about why he didn't want him to go to college, if he had told Sam what he was facing, heck if he had told Dean what he thought Sam would do to deserve death, so much pain could have been avoided.
In what ways are Sam and Dean like and unlike their father?
Skipping this for now, I'll have to think.
How do you think his character was affected by information about him that's come to light in the past seasons, especially in regards to Adam Milligan and the events in "Dark Side of the Moon"? (John leaving Mary for a time.)
My negative feelings toward John were always about the kind of father he was shown to be in season one. Having an affair YEARS after Mary died didn't bother me. Finding out he had a son and trying to have some kind of contact with him didn't bother me. Not telling Sam and Dean was iffy, but since John had no intention of bringing Adam into the hunting life (possibly because he had found out about Mary and thought that Adam was safe because he wasn't Mary's child) it doesn't bother me that much. Adam took a couple of days a year with John. Sam and Dean were grown by the time John found out about Adam and I have little problem with him trying to keep his lives separate. Plus it is part of his secretive nature.
Leaving Mary in DSOTM didn't bother me that much either. Cupid indicated that John and Mary didn't really LIKE each other when they were forced to fall in love. I can see having real problems when you are passionate about a person who you really don't like. Dean was affected by the tension of the fights and by the feeling of abandonment when John left, but since we don't know enough about the fights, it may have been less hurtful to Dean for John to leave and get some space instead of exposing Dean to whatever anger was between John and Mary.
I should say I liked young John from In The Beginning and The Song Remains The Same. He seemed to have good instincts and certainly good intentions about fatherhood. He was appalled by the way he was eventually going to raise Sam and Dean. It is hard to know exactly what changed him. By the time Dean was born he had been possessed by Michael and although Michael didn't leave him a drooling idiot, he may well have affected John's mind in some way, leading him to make his boys warriors because that was what Michael wanted. Certainly having his wife die in a horrific, unexplainable way after having been at such odds with her that he had left the family had to leave him feeling guilty as well as confused about what he saw the night Mary died. Finding out about the supernatural may well have pushed him over the edge, although I think a case can be made that it is possible that the angels and the demons helped. Sam was followed by demons all his life and they wanted Sam in the game. So John's actions may have been influenced as well to push Sam into becoming what the demons wanted.
John angers me for the way he treated Sam and Dean. He is also a truly tragic figure, caught in a battle between Heaven and Hell and never knowing why his life fell apart.
That said, Dean would not be the person he is today if not for John. Allthough I think Dean's hunter instincts were born in his genes, they were honed under John's tutelage. I think Dean's imagination, and he has a very good imagination that allows him to make quick decisions and come up with out-of-the-box solutions, came from walking the fragile line between John's expectations and Dean stepping up to meet those expectations.
I also think that Dean always questioning himself, always evaluating and judging what his actions, came from John putting too much responsibility on his young shoulders, but that very questioning and judging has allowed Dean to form his own moral code and the toughness he needed to live the life he has lead, all the while guiding and protecting Sam.
I also think that the four years with his mother had a bigger impact on Dean than the show has ever brought out, or could ever bring out. Dean was heavily, heavily influenced by his mother, and that is why I think Dean is like Mary and Deanna, his grandmother, while Sam, lacking Mary's influence, took after John...that and just the luck of the birth draw, of course.
So, while I think John was one, big SOB, I still like his character. I like complicated men. I don't want John back, though. The show has so totally trashed his character with that Adam crap story, John is a done deal for me and, I hope, for JDM, too.
I'm all for additional characters, but they need to interact with both brothers or Sam needs to get a character that actually cares more about him than Dean, and no, I don't mean a married girlfriend, or even a girlfriend. Those never work out in this universe.