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In my analysis of season six Dean Winchester, my heart was pretty broken for the guy come the end of it.  His struggles in that season were especially hard and no matter how much he tried, he couldn’t catch a break.  He fought on though and did the best he could, despite the fact that his drinking was at an all time high and he was reeling at the end over the betrayal of his best friend.  A betrayal that harmed the one person that Dean cherishes more than anyone, his brother.  That was crossing an unforgivable line.    

I so wish I could say that season seven continued in this same vein, with Dean finding enough of his fighting spirit and love for his brother to handle the numerous obstacles that came his way.  Sadly, Dean spent a majority of the season apathetic and depressed, going through the motions without any fire or desire to carry on the family business.  He certainly didn’t open up to his brother, which rendered the once tight brotherly bond stale.  We waited all season for him to finally get the kick in the pants he needed and slip out of his funk, but he never did.   

Season seven’s largest and most grossest failure is easily the characterization of both Sam and Dean individually and with their relationship.  In going through the “Deeper Look” segments this year, the tone at times will stray toward bitter and exasperated, for the lost potential and blatant stripping of these beloved characters into bland, emotionless machines just didn’t work for me.  While Sam’s story screams lost potential, Dean’s screams the inability of the writers to truly grasp his real spirit.  I don’t recognize this Dean Winchester, and quite frankly, I don’t want to. 

The purpose here is to explore Dean Winchester’s character progression from beginning of season seven to the end by going through each episode.  In past seasons, promising patterns and real character growth unfolded from this exercise.  With Dean this year, you will see no such progression.  In some cases, regression even happens.  It’s still an interesting study though, and if anything will serve as a good bottom line comparison for next season!  

 

Meet The New Boss

Poor Dean. I really feel for him in this one.  His spirit is broken, and for good reason.  He just lost Lisa and Ben in his life, Castiel is unstoppable in his sudden God complex, Sam collapses and falls into another coma, and even the Impala is damaged. She is about the only thing he can fix, so that’s where his attention lies. When Sam wakes up seemingly okay, Dean wants to pretend everything is good, but he knows better.   He’s been burned too bad by the past. Turns out he’s right. 

After a little prodding from Sam, it’s nice to see he still cares by coming up with the risky plan to trap Death so he can kill “God”, but that doesn’t work.  All that’s left is to reason with Cass, but he’s too hurt to contact Castiel directly and Sam ends up doing it. Of course he’s also hurt because Sam didn’t tell him about the hallucinations either and he had to find out from Death. He’s not taking any of this well. He’s even resorting to spending his time drinking and watching cartoon porn (an interesting if not disturbing new vice). By the end his reservations about their bad luck are valid. He helps Castiel send the monsters back to Purgatory, but not the deadliest of them all, the Leviathan.  While this is happening, Sam disappears. 

Yes, this is the defeated Dean Winchester.  It’s not fun to watch, but in this episode, it was appropriate.  He had every reason to feel this way given that all the events of season six led up to this.  The standout scene for his is in the garage with Bobby, talking about whether Sam is really okay.  He wants to believe it, he really really wants to believe it, but he knows better.  “But I’m not dumb.  I’m not getting my hopes up just to get kicked in the daddy pills again.” 

Hello Cruel World

THIS is Dean Winchester at his finest.  Oh why oh why didn’t it last?  Why didn’t he evolve from this?  It’s not flipping fair!  (Storms off in tantrum). 

Dean jumps into full fledged protective big brother mode because Sam has fallen into a series psychotic break. This is the Dean we know and love. When the chips are down, family comes first. After finding Sam caught in a meltdown at the lab, he wastes no time trying to get some answers about what’s happening (after letting Sam have a long sleep). Sam comes clean, he can’t tell what is real and is seeing Lucifer now. This disturbs Dean a lot, but he’s determined to get Sam through this, despite his reservations that this kind of crazy is something he can’t easily fix. He opts to keep a close eye on Sam, taking precautions like turning on the GPS on Sam’s cell. In the meantime Bobby tries to get Dean to open up but he won’t. He’s too focused on Sam right now. 

Oh, that gorgeous scene in the warehouse. Sam is caught in a psychotic episode and can’t pull himself out of it. Dean calmly talks him through it, giving Sam the trick that will get him through a good chunk of the season. Sam needs to use the pain from his cut up hand to tell what’s real. Most important, Dean is able to get through just by appealing to their brotherly bond. 

“Believe in that. Believe me.  You better make it stone number one and build on it, you understand?"

Oh Dean, I just fell in love with you all over again.


The Girl Next Door

Let my primal screaming begin.

How can things tonally shift so positive to so negative with a character so fast? What were they thinking? The last episode closed with Dean frantically worrying about Sam going into seizures as they are in the ambulance together, headed toward harm’s way. How did everything shift from Dean pulling himself out of his rut by being in protective big brother mode to this?

From here on out, it all becomes a polarizing character shift. For one, as soon as Bobby finds Dean in the hospital, Dean doesn’t seem to be concerned about Sam at all. Then Sam has a little “episode” in the cabin for a minute and Dean freaks out. What happened to stone number one? Oh, but none of that compares to the rest of this atrocity.  Sam takes off (a point I’ll argue as completely stupid at another time), Dean angrily hunts him down and then punches him in the very spot on the skull where Sam was recently wounded by Edgar? The one that rendered him unconscious and seizing in a hospital?  Not only does he trounce on Sam physically, he pretty much takes any trust Sam has ever earned with him and throws it out the window.  

So suddenly Dean has a black and white view of monsters again and Sam’s plea to let Amy go means nothing to him? They’ve let plenty of monsters go in the past. How about the end of season five when he worked with Crowley, a demon, to get what he needed, the ring off of Death. He knew it was playing with fire but those were desperate times.  Dean hasn’t been a black and white hunter for a long while. So, when a past acquaintance of Sam’s shows up that just happens to be a monster and he hunts her down and kills her, because she’s a “monster”, we’re supposed to accept that as character growth?  Especially when he lets her monster son go after he kills her in front of him?  He left a boy without his mother? Dean? The man who is still carrying deep scars over losing his own mother?

Oh, but that’s nothing compared to the fact that Dean did this behind Sam’s back, right after promising him he wouldn’t kill Amy. Have we not gotten past this lying to each other crap?  Again, going back to season five, the brothers put all that dishonesty behind them and came to a new understanding. I do accept that Dean’s faith recently may have been shaken by Sam’s psychotic break, but his actions still screamed out of character to me. This even affected Dean’s actions in the upcoming episodes, for this indescribable drama was dragged on senselessly for four more episodes before getting an quick and “swept under the rug” ending. 

Welcome THE major blunder of season seven. Two seasons of rich character growth wiped away by one crappy script. 

Defending Your Life

And the *headdesk* banging continues to incredulous new levels. Dean’s depressed, no he’s angry, no he’s hiding something, no he’s confronting his past, no he’s too flipping resigned to care. Ugh.  Do not give a characterization heavy episode to a writer who doesn’t get the characters (I’m pointing at you Adam Glass). Both Sam and Dean were off in this one but man was Dean’s character butchered. 

If anything, this was a concept of lost opportunity. Fans usually like anything that will bring up the volumes of Dean guilt out there, the stuff that bogs him down to where he sometimes can’t function right (like this ep). Bringing back Jo certainly looked good on paper, and the scenes between her and Dean were gorgeous from an emotional perspective, but they were pointless. Dean didn’t learn anything from this ordeal of being condemned to Death for his guilt (yes, by an Egyptian God. That goes in the “What were they thinking?” archives). It’s even worse with Sam. He kept lying to Sam, which was one of those guilt things thrown at us like a bowling ball to the head. We get it, he suffers a ton of guilt over what’s happened to Sam. Thanks for bringing up character point that’s only been around since the Pilot. Isn’t he supposed to take this knowledge and move on, be better for it when seen in this light? Nope, he carries on like nothing is wrong. 

Of course maybe he’s too blown away by the fact that Sam is declaring with a smile he’s good, and that he’s paid for all his guilt by going to Hell. Wait a second, I seem to recall another Winchester brother spending some valuable penance time in Hell as well. Hold on, it’s on the tip of my tongue…Yeah, you get it. It’s almost like Adam Glass never watched that crucial part of the series in which Dean was flung into Hell and then pulled out months (or 40 Hell years) later.  Absolutely none of this so called character trial of Dean amounted to anything other than frustrated fans primal screaming over what senselessness has attacked their beloved older Winchester.  

Shut Up Dr. Phil

The lies continue, the bile rising in my throat continues, and it’s especially heavy handed considering they’ve blatantly started with Dean the drunk having his morning cocktail while Sam the happy well adjusted health nut (yes, I’ll harp on that in the Sam Winchester article) is off for his morning jog. Oh, why don’t I use this to pull out an old metaphor form my high school days. “Gag me with a spoon.” 

All in all, the episode was fluff and did nothing for either character. In Dean’s case, it existed to just drag on this senseless rut he’s in - one that he just doesn’t seem to pull himself out of even when Sam finally begs for the truth at the end.  The primal screaming continues.

 

Slash Fiction

Dean gets some of that fighting spirit back, which is good, but seeing an evil version of himself didn’t hurt that’s for sure.  Actually, considering all the crap we’ve gotten the last three episodes, it’s a freaking breath of fresh air. However, instead of coming clean with Sam about Amy, his Leviathan doppelganger drops the bomb instead.  Sam gets hurt, then pissed, then doesn’t want to be with him right now (we’ll save that little critique for the Sam article). Dean doesn’t try to fight. He let’s Sam go away. 

I actually like this. Dean accepts he was wrong and trusts Sam to go off and have his cooling off period. It’s way more respect than he has given Sam all season, which is kind of why they’re in this mess in the first place. Perhaps he is learning. At least they didn’t show him going off to a bar to drown his sorrows. This Dean I understood.

The Mentalists

Dean is carrying on without Sam, continuing to work. It’s not really a coincidence to him that they end up in the same town chasing after the same case. He tries to keep it professional for Sam, but when they exchange words, he won’t apologize. He still thinks what he did was right. I’m still pounding my head on the desk wondering why they’re still talking about this. So Dean is shown to be a jerk by calling Sam a bitch. Ugh. Lucky for Dean, Ellen is out there in the great beyond to kick some sense in him. 

In the end it’s Sam that forgives, so after all that flipping drama, Dean FINALLY admits he’s having a hard time trusting people after Castiel and he’s sorry. Drama all done. Wow, that was so, logical and grown up. Why didn’t they lead with that in “Defending Your Life?” Is Dean finally back on the right track? He even bonded with the leading lady, which is something we haven’t seen in a good long while. It made us smile. This is how you treat your main character.

 

Season Seven: Time For A Wedding

Aside from the fact we got to see Dean exasperated the entire episode and in a sweater and jacket, this was a completely pointless hour of television for both guys. Although Dean trying to make bygones by giving Sam a waffle iron as a wedding gift was pretty funny. He does care. Too bad he wasn’t smart enough to see that Sam was being drugged. He should have suspected that right off the bat, or at least after he tried to rationalize with Sam and saw it wasn’t working. If anyone recognizes out of character behavior, it’s Dean. He figured it out in “Swap Meat.” I mean, marrying Becky alone should have involved a head thump and a forced trip to the institution for Sammy.  

How To Win Friends and Influence Monsters

Remember that recognizing the drugging thing? Sam and Bobby figured out what the turducken was doing to Dean halfway through the episode. At least they know out of character. To be honest, I really liked seeing Dean with a "who cares?" attitude.  For one, it was funny.  See what happens when such a character twist is put in the right care?  What was nice about his though is Dean was feeling quite defeated before he even tasted the sandwich, so that seemed to only exacerbate existing issues.  It was about time.  The only thing missing was Sam and Dean actually talking about it!  They talk to Bobby about their problems, but not each other?  I know that this likely suffered due to an issue in time, but considering they went the entire season without having that conversation, without checking in to see how the other was doing, it’s just another bit of  frustration to an already growing fire.

 

Comments  

ismira
# ismira 2012-06-06 00:40
Great article, Alice! I agree with the primal screaming- season 7 was a total mess in regard to characterizatio n. I'm just wishing that Purgatory wakes up the Dean Winchester we know and love. Thinking back, the only positive idea I can come up with is if season 7 is made out to be one long setup for some awesome character growths in season 8. My worst issues were with TGND and OWTO. And after the incredible promise of "Hello, Cruel World" Sigh. We definitely need more Ben Edlund episodes every season.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-06-06 07:43
Can I just mention that I thought the episode titles were just awful this year. This obsessed SPN fan has to go look up many of the episode titles when acronyms are used. Not only that, I often can't even remember what the episode was about when I know the title. That's a sure sign nothing worked right this season.
alysha
# alysha 2012-06-07 21:36
I honestly can't remember what "Out with the Old" was about!
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 10:34
Quote:
I often can't even remember what the episode was about when I know the title. That's a sure sign nothing worked right this season.
I'm right there w/you! There was an article about grading this season's episodes or listing them from best to worst, and I realized I couldn't remember what 90% of the episodes were about! LOL!

For me, this season was 98% filler. Most of the episodes were pointless and a waste of time, IMO. Even Bobby's death was filler. I mean . . . what purpose did it serve? It was quite unnecessary.

This season was a complete and utter train wreck!
BlackIceWitch
# BlackIceWitch 2012-07-08 05:31
I haven't seen S7 in full yet (Australia ... say no more), only read the transcripts and seen the clips on YouTube, and I have to say that I would agree with most of the comments on the hopelessness of the writers in S7 for story arc, individual episodes plots and the assassination of the characters. You're right. The writers don't know the characters because they have not the previous series, and if even if they have, they do not have enough interest in those characters to have figured out what makes/made them tick.

Defending Your Life is a fairly good example. In Point of No Return, Bobby actually screams at Dean for even thinking of giving up. But Dean finds it quite fine to let Jo kill him in DYL? Really? Because ... uh ... um ... yeah, got nothing.

The fact that the writers have been making the boys worse and worse hunters as the seasons progress is additional problem. It's difficult to find your get up and go when you can't figure out what something is, and therefore how to kill it without being able to phone home to Bobby for the answers. It amazes me that they managed to get through S1 without him.

The story arc (the season's story line) can be blamed on SG and BS presumably. Failing to come up with one. The individual episode failures can be placed squarely with the writers involved. But the lack of character development, the deliberate ignoring of events in the character's lives that would affect what they do now, these things lie with the producers - SG and BS are supposedly the authorities having been around since the beginning. Those who listen to fan whining instead of having creative ideas themselves, however, will always choose the wrong path.

It was devastating that Dean 'forgot' about his feelings regarding Cas' betrayal for almost the whole season. Oh well, guess the writer's forgot about it. And more devastating that Sam's 'hallucinations ' suddenly acquired an actual living entity of their own, only to disappear suddenly when it was no longer required. That is poor writing. That is really, really poor writing.

Fingers crossed that S8 will do better, but frankly don't hold your breath because coming back from the out of character, illogical mess of S6 & S7 ... it's probably not possible.
rmoats8621
# rmoats8621 2012-06-06 01:03
Brilliant article! I agree with every word. Gamble, Edlund and Thompson wrote the strongest episodes that showed the boys in a totally believable way. Glass appears to me to be one of their weakest writers and doesn't really get them or the show. Dean and Sam were written all over the map this year and there was a lot times where I was left scratching my head (especially during a Glass episode). I hope that Carver can straighten this out and get some strong writers to join the team that really understand the Winchesters and bring back continuity and growth to these strong characters.
Yhello
# Yhello 2012-06-06 03:33
I so agree with you on so many of your observations! While Sam's character often sets the direction, Dean's passion, energy and connection to Sam is the current that powers this show and it just wasn't there this season. The Impala being missing was the unintentional metaphor for the whole season. Each new (old) car brought some new character shift, but they didn't fit right. There were some great moments in S7 but I hope S8 really finds Dean's mojo again.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-06-06 07:48
Quote:
The Impala being missing was the unintentional metaphor for the whole season. Each new (old) car brought some new character shift, but they didn't fit right. .
Thank you for this comment. For the life of me, I never understood why the Impala was discarded this season, but this seems like the most logical explanation.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-07 00:40
Ah, I see. Kinda like The show is not complete without the car. So, they write Sam and Dean in a wacky way as if the want to say that the boys are also not complete, cannot function right without Baby as a constant in their life. The link to the past and to family.

I can go with that.
Ginger
# Ginger 2012-06-06 08:11
"Season seven’s largest and most grossest failure is easily the characterizatio n of both Sam and Dean individually and with their relationship."

In a nutshell, Alice. You just had to twist the knife, didn't you ;-) Your tone, however, isn't nearly as bitter and exasperating as I would have put it. Everyone knows that I'm a 100% Dean girl, and I've been very focal that I'm nearly at the end of my patience with what this show has done to Dean's character these last two seasons (never forgetting SS though).

Despite that, I really felt for Sam's character all season . I don't know what the hell they were doing with Sam. In fact, I didn't know which of the various Sam incarnates I was going to see from one episode to the other. At least with Dean, I knew the writers just weren't spinning him in circles from one episode to the next with no apparent story -- ergo, something good and miraculous had better happen with Dean in S8 that keeps me vested in this show.

For one, I want two recognizable characters put back on my TV screen.

Two: I want each of the two[/b ]leads to have a coherent story -- no more Supernatural presents the Guest of the Week SPN or entire seasons dedicated to the story of one support character and no more having Dean not connected to the story.

I want the Impala back in every episode.

I want the grit put back in a horror/drama show and take the emoting, personal journey crap over to Lifetime TV.

I don't care if the brothers work alone with other support characters or together, but I definitely want a layered story that I have some investment in. I want the story to reflect something worth going after and something achieved that gives character growth to each of the two leads. If the story furthers the mythical brothers' bond along the way -- great -- but so much damage has been done to that bond that it's pretty well on the back burner for me now. It'd be nice if S8 ended to where I believed in it again, but I'll start with baby steps and demand that I get Dean Winchester back. That's my line for S8.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-06 21:58
This so much. I'm a Sam Girl, but neither boy had any consistent character development. It is sad that the character that got the most development was Bobby in Death's Door don't get me wrong, I thought DD was brilliant and I love Bobby getting character development. But Dean and Sam should have gotten at least as much development as Bobby. We should have seen much more insight into Dean (I'll talk about Sam in the Sam article).

I certainly can deal with the boys having separate stories for a while, if they both get character development while doing so. They BOTH need to have coherent storylines. They both need to be connected to the story.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 10:41
Quote:
It is sad that the character that got the most development was Bobby in Death's Door don't get me wrong, I thought DD was brilliant and I love Bobby getting character development. But Dean and Sam should have gotten at least as much development as Bobby. We should have seen much more insight into Dean (I'll talk about Sam in the Sam article).
I see all this praise for DD, and I wonder if I was too bitter about the complete failure of the season by the time that episode aired to really appreciate it.

Honestly, I think I was a little bitter that the mid-season break had nothing to do Sam or Dean - the two leads - having some massive breakdown, but rather focused on Bobby.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-06 08:47
I thought the first two episodes were great and promised much.
But I dont really know what happened after that ?.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 10:38
Quote:
I thought the first two episodes were great and promised much.
But I dont really know what happened after that ?.
I'm with you. The season, IMO, was on track until the third eepisode. That's when it derailed and remained off track.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-06 12:59
You have completely summed up my frustration looking back at this season! It's not that I hate the season at all. But it's everything you list here. I kept thinking they were going somewhere, leading to something and maybe they were but you're right the execution of the characters was kind all over the board. Right up until the end. And it cause majors problems in the some of the stories.

I pray God it's a longer story arc and maybe they still are going to right some of these things in 8. That all of this inexplicable behavior in season 7 will be explained. Because looking at individual episodes, I still really liked the season and it could easily get back up to love if I have a reasonable explanation for Dean's behavior (deal with Sam in his) this season.

I know a lot of people are just saying they're writing this season off, but I have no desire to do that I just want some reason. Even if a bit of revisionist history is involved. Especially with Dean attitude towards Sam. Hands down #1 problem for me. And his attitude with Ghost Bobby which I understood slightly more, but was never fully explained. And his no mercy with monsters view (except when he lets them go - ugh!, although this is even more of Sam issue for me than Dean).

Maybe they're all interconnected. That Dean is totally messed up right now and really hasn't trusted Sam all season or maybe this has all been percolating down since the demon blood and he kept pushing it down and never dealt with it because he loves Sam so much he and at first was just happy he got him back and didn't want to think about anything that happened before. But with Cas' betrayal and even Bobby turning into a "monster" all his irrational fears keep rising to the surface regardless of how he tries to drive them back down. And that is where a lot of the guilt comes from because he knows he should let it go and wants to let his fears about Sam go but can't because time after time he's seen monsters give into they're instinct and has even seen Sam succumb.
.......Okay I totally started a stream of consciousness rant here. None of this has been thought out really so don't kill me.
But in a way (as much as I hate the boys being at odds) I would prefer this because it actually would make sense as to why Dean as been acting the way he has. And it give them an opportunity to deal with some of the lingering problems and doubts about each other (which some people don't think they have-so now I AM going to get killed).

Okay I am going to quit thinking about this now.
Fantastic article Alice. Obviously very thought provoking for me. LOL.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-06-06 14:11
Even though I enjoyed most of this season, I do agree with you about Dean. Lord, I wish for him to get his mojo back and become his old badass irrepressible self, or as much of that he can after all his pains and disappointments . I suffer right along with him and yearn to be able to help him.

One thing I just don't get, is all the fuss about him killing Amy. Would you want her living next door to you, especially in flu season? ;-)

So Sam was sentimentally attached to this monster who saved his life. Understood. But as much as I sympathised with his point of view, I was delighted when Dean finished her off. As far as killing the witches, they weren't able to kill them as they were too too powerful for them and Sam seems to not have powers without blood drinking.

I also unerstood why Dean kept it from Sam at that time as Sammy was having enough problems with hellucinations and Lucifer at him all the time.

Ah well, I'm hoping against hope that we get our Dean, THE DEAN, back sometime next season. Perhaps he will return in Purgatory to help him survive there.

Defending Your Life was written poorly, and so much potential in the premise was absolutely wasted. And Time for a Wedding? Uck! Please, no more Becky ever! :o Other than those two, I enjoyed nearly every other one this season, probably because the brothers were not at odds in every episode, with the exception of Sam AGAIN walking away in a snit. :eek:

With Carver and Edlund and Robbie Thompson on board next season seems promising. Whatever, I'll still be watching, no matter what. :roll:
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-06 16:08
The problem is that they have, both Dean and Sam, let "monsters" go before, depending on the situation. Even Lenora and her family only said they didn't feed anymore-not that they had never fed on humans. But to make matters worse, season and characters wise, TWO episodes later Dean basically let the Stark's go. I know they originally tried to kill them but after the "counseling" session when they were free why didn't they go back after them. AND They've taken on beings much more powerful then them and won. The Starks killed people out of spite not to try to save a loved one. That made no sense from Dean's POV. (Sam I will get to on his thing)

And as Alice mentioned, the Amy kill also meant betraying Sam's trust. Whereas the witches wouldn't have and there wasn't even a mention of the inconsistency, even through Dean was still wrestling with the Amy kill in that episode. URGGGHHH. I REALLY hope this is going somewhere next season in purgatory because otherwise it really does irritate me.

Also since Sam basically ends up agreeing with him later, it kind of makes the kill all monsters with no grey areas the singular idea of the show, which was even backed up with Bobby going temporarily bad and having to be S an B. And that I have a SERIOUS problem with. Because by this philosophy SAM should be killed. After all he has demon blood in him, he drank demon blood and killed that nurse the demon was inhabiting(in addition to all the other demons he drank) in order to kill Lilith, which released Lucifer. That's a whole lot more damage than Amy did by killing drug dealers. Yeah he was trying to save the world but she was trying to save her son. And to have motto like that, for this show especially, is just wrong. A few unexplained plot points or gaps that aren't filled in I can take, but this is black and white attitude towards good and evil I can't. It is fundamental to the show and its characters.

I don't want to be a negative Nelly nitpicker but this is the best explanation I have as to why I can't just let the Amy thing go completely.

On a less ranty note, I just want to say I like that your comments are generally upbeat and positive (and with the others who I like that as well.) I liked almost all the individual episode this seasons. I even liked the Becky one.
Totally with on DYL.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-06-07 14:35
Hi Kelly - I understand your point about the monster killing. Personally I never never wanted to see Sam drinking blood or killing innocent nurses. I wish he hadn't been written that way. Or Bobby either. When seen in that point of view both Sam and Cas should be killed. They were both veritable monsters at those times they went overboard. I guess the writers just wanted to amp up the angst and drama, after all it is a tv show. Just didn't enjoy those aspects of it.

Sam could have been redeemed if he had refused to kill the nurse and found his powers inside himself at the last minute. Ruby did say he didn't need the blood. But they wrote him into a corner with the drinking gallons of it in order to best Lucifer. I don't really think that ANYTHING Sam would ever do would cause Dean to actually kill him. He loves him too much and would probably kill himself before doing that, or right after if he did do it.

And Cas? He not only killed many people, but massacred nearly all of the angels upstairs! And fans still love him and want him redeemed.

Yes I see your point clearly. It was hypocritical, as most monsters have never done as much damage as those two.

It's just that I preferred the almost black and white monsters of the first 3 seasons and Amy seemed to me to be one of those. And we can't have Dean offing both Sam and Cas as then there would be no show that I LOVE. ;-)

When I think about it too much it spoils my enjoyment so I try to take it one at a time.

As to my not liking Time for a Wedding, i did enjoy Garth tremendously and hoped he would return. Just something about Becky turns me off, and it is not because she reminds me of myself as a fan. And Sam would have to be drugged to the gills to ever contemplate marriage with her, and Dean should know that! So, I do nitpick myself quite a bit, just don't usually broadcast it as I don't like bringing others down with my opinions. :P
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-07 15:28
Quote:
Sam could have been redeemed if he had refused to kill the nurse and found his powers inside himself at the last minute. Ruby did say he didn't need the blood. But they wrote him into a corner with the drinking gallons of it in order to best Lucifer. I don't really think that ANYTHING Sam would ever do would cause Dean to actually kill him. He loves him too much and would probably kill himself before doing that, or right after if he did do it.

And Cas? He not only killed many people, but massacred nearly all of the angels upstairs! And fans still love him and want him redeemed.
Frankly they wrote the entire cast into a corner with the gallons of blood part. Castiel told them Sam had to drink it and Bobby and Dean helped drain the demons. Frankly, as awesome as the reveal was that people who were possessed were still alive inside in Devils Trap and as wonderful it was to have a possessed Sam in BUABS, I think that having people continue to be alive inside when possessed has caused enormous amounts of problems that the show never really deals with. Basically it only doesn't matter until it does. No one has asked about Meg's new meatsuit, Dean didn't worry about the people inside when he was torturing demons to find Lisa and Ben and this was chronologically after Dean felt extremely guilty because he realized that Jeremy from Repo Man was tortured in season 3 (or 4).

I actually consider Sam's body count to not be that high. Out of all the demons he killed, the only one that Dean might not have taken out was the nurse and even that was iffy. If Dean had come on the nurse taking kids from the hospital, he would have used the knife without any thought. I mean, yes Dean wouldn't have drained the demons, but the hosts would have been just as dead. The same goes for the demons Sam drained in the Famine episode. If Dean had been able he would have killed them as well. That's what the Winchesters do, kill demons and the knife is faster than an exorcism and it also means the demon doesn't return.

Frankly, we also see absolutely no concern for the vessels of angels either. In my view, the boys should view Cas with as much horror as they do demons because of his possession of Jimmy Novack. They know what it is like to grow up without a parent and like it or not, Castiel doomed Claire to that existence. Yet, other than showing Raphael's broken host, we are asked to ignore those who the angels took over.

It's a plot point that is consistently swept under the rug, unless it is needed to make a different plot point. Then it rears its head all over again.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 10:53
Great post, Percy!

It doesn't matter until it does again. My sister hated Dean killing Amy. I, myself, didn't care, but she hated it. And though she loves Sam, she called Dean out on being a hypocrite b/c he hasn't killed Sam who has also killed people while drinking DB or being soulless, etc. I think it's actually pretty human and realistic to show that hypocrisy. It's like someone making fun of a sibling but not tolerating anyone else doing the same.

As far as killing possesed people, I do think we're led to believe that angels are "nicer" w/their host bodies than demons. Demons ride people rough and hard; angels do not.

But as you pointed out, angels may not cause the body to be harmed in the physical world (i.e., gun shots, knife wounds, etc.), but I believe the longer they're in a body, the more damage they do by their presence (i.e., Raphael's host body).
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-10 12:48
I have no problem with the hypocrisy of not killing Sam. I guess I have a problem with that line of thought regardless. I don't think purely good/evil, black/white fits the show, but ALSO how that line of thought progresses and how that would effect Sam. But instead of dealing with any of that they just had Sam jump on board with the philosophy. I'm just hoping that this is still moving towards something in season 8.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-07 00:17
Quote:

One thing I just don't get, is all the fuss about him killing Amy. Would you want her living next door to you, especially in flu season? ;-)

So Sam was sentimentally attached to this monster who saved his life. Understood. But as much as I sympathized with his point of view, I was delighted when Dean finished her off. As far as killing the witches, they weren't able to kill them as they were too too powerful for them and Sam seems to not have powers without blood drinking.
I'm going to try to not repeat other people too much, but this was wrong on several levels.

First, as others have pointed out, there's the hypocrisy. You can joke about flu season, but the way the writers presented this story, it wasn't implied that Amy goes on a killing spree every time someone gets the flu. It was implied that she's lived a clean, respectable life up until this point when her son had a rare illness that required human brains. Maybe she was lying, but I think that if that was the intent of the writers, we would have gotten some clue that she had killed at some other time. So we're left with a being that is physically a monster, but who has a sense of morality, and by her own choice, sought a lifestyle that wouldn't harm other people. The only time she broke this resolve was when her family was in danger, and Dean of all people is the first to break his own rules when it comes to saving his family. Now that the illness has passed, is she still a danger to society? Probably not, so that makes Dean's decision to kill her more about passing judgment than protecting innocent lives.

The witches were only one example. There was Cas (a supernatural being who committed murder on a large scale). There was the leviathan who helped them in Out with the Old, who it is implied they let walk away. They've partnered with Meg, Crowley, and the Alpha vamp this season - rather than actively hunting them down. And Dean was piling up the bodies of people possessed by demons, without trying exorcism, in Let It Bleed, when Lisa and Ben were in danger.

Second issue is the lying, and being concerned for Sam's mental health isn't a good enough excuse for such a big lie.

Third issue is the lack of respect for Sam's point of view. Sam's been a hunter for a while too. He initially planned to kill Amy when he learned she had been killing again, but once he heard her side and weighed the effort she's been making to stay clean, he decided to give her another chance. You can disagree with Sam's decision, but it was a judgment call, and Sam and Dean have been partners in this for too long not to respect each other's judgment.

Fourth issue is the meaning behind all of the subtext in this episode. Sam has always thought of himself as part monster. In season 4, Dean drew the line that he wouldn't let Sam become a monster. He told Bobby he would rather kill Sam then let him become a monster. Sam tried to explain to Dean in this episode that you can be a monster but manage it and not be dangerous. He was reaching out to Dean and trying to get Dean to accept him for who he is. Dean's response was to stab Amy.

Fifth issue is the question of whether Sam and Dean really have a license to kill creatures who aren't an immediate threat. If they're killing everything that is technically a "monster," whether that creature is really evil or not, they're playing God (like Cas was) and they risk becoming more violent than the monsters they are hunting.

Sixth issue is that Dean did to that boy the same thing that scarred him so deeply when he was a boy. He killed the boy's mother. This last one isn't so much about what Dean did to Sam, but rather what Dean did to Dean. It's going to haunt him.
Miggymom58
# Miggymom58 2012-06-12 17:00
I have to agree with all you said. Dean has always been a hypocritical man and has lost faith. What was lacking this season was the passion. I had so much hope after the first 3 episodes because I thought I could see what was coming...redemp tion, faith and renewed comfort with the "job". But I was wrong and there were so much potential. I try not to over judge and just enjoy it for what it is, but I could probably write a whole book and what it could have been. I still have hope that there is a plan in the works and season 8 will redeem season 7.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-13 08:52
Even though some of this is consistent with what we've seen from Dean in the past, I think the extent of wrongness in his decision to kill Amy was out of character. And that is why we really needed some thoughtful follow up in which we learned why Dean had acted like he did, and we needed Sam to stick to his beliefs and push Dean to own up to it. Both brothers can and have been very wrong at times, but they confront each other and pull each other back. Like they say - they keep each other human. I don't think the way this episode, and even more so the Mentalists, went down did either of the characters a service.
wunderpat
# wunderpat 2012-06-06 14:17
Sam's friend monster amy was killing people. That's why Dean killed her. He didn't tell Sam because he was trying to protect him and not upset him (he did have a major breakdown the previous episode). He didn't kill Amy's son or his daughter (yet) because they hadn't killed. That is about as grey as Dean goes in my opinion. I honestly have no idea why people were so upset with this... or why it was deliberately dragged out by the writers for so many episodes.

That said I agree that in many instances both brothers were written strangely off. Especially weird considering that amy/Emma, cas and Bobby were blatantly used/misused to create drama in a season otherwise lacking. Thanks for putting this together.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-07 00:37
Ah, I remember Metamorphosis. The monster used to be the kids of a monster that the old hunter was letting go right? In the end he succumbed to his nature. I get what Dean was saying you are what you are. It's in their blood. The only monster Dean letting go was maybe Lenore because she proved to him that she resist drinking Sam's blood. Thus, she passed the test. When Lenore kills again she needs to be put down. Like in S6.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-06 14:51
Killing Amy just simply brought into to question again Sam's friendships and judgement by the writers it smacked of season 4 which is why I disliked the episode. Amy killed because she had no choice she was what she was and tried to do the least harm possible but she was still seen has a monster .Castiel also killed and far more and caused more harm so again what is a 'monster'?. How do we or even Dean decide and define these things and how are the writers deciding?.
Traci B
# Traci B 2012-06-06 21:02
Thanks for the article, Alice. There are many reasons I watch this show, but the one that has always touched me most is Dean's character, his guilt, his determination, his love, his loyalty... Despite some stand-out episodes, I felt as apathetic as Dean's character by the end of this season. So many missed opportunities for character growth, brotherly bonding, etc. I'm hoping for the return of the real Dean in Season 8.
Katie
# Katie 2012-06-06 22:32
Here's my problem with the "no grey" area that started back in the fourth season:

During the fourth season, Ruby's argument of use your abilities and save a life sounded a whole lot better to me than Dean's argument of use the knife and kill the demon. Throughout the fourth season, we see that Sam is at first only drinking from Ruby. She is his supplier who disappears for weeks. Sam eventually drinks from the demon in "The Rapture" and the demon nurse. We're told repeatedly that it's bad, but the other side of the argument says killing is the way to go. There is no good side. Yet, at the end of the fourth season, Dean's argument is proven right pretty much. Thus, making humans possessed by demons collateral damage. Therefore, under Dean's argument of kill the demon should apply to Sam killing the possessed nurse. This makes it okay to for Sam to have killed the nurse demon. In addition for it being okay, the demon blood has purposely never been defined. (In my opinion, the worst mistake the show has ever made story wise, because it leads to debates on whether or not one of the main characters is human! I still personally believe that Sam isn't a monster for the demon blood. Maybe he isn't completely human, who knows? To me, he'll always be one of the psychic kids which are human. I would love to have the show bring it full circle and somehow bring the other generations back into the show before it ends. But it's only on my wish list.)

So, this logic gets Sam and Dean off the hook for killing demons. However, demon body count has gotten really high. Dean tortures Alastair and his host, Sam kills these demons, Castiel kills all these demons, then Bobby kills this demon, and so on. It's gotten to the point that in the episode of "Let it Bleed," Dean has a pile of dead demon/human carcasses on the floor at Bobby's while he is looking for Ben and Lisa and not even one eye is batted by anyone! We're suppose to completely dismiss all the demon-human deaths.

Then the seventh season begins and Castiel is killing humans by the hundreds. He's killing angels by the hundreds. And the only creature upset about it is Hester who is killed relatively quickly. Castiel is pretty much completely forgiven by taking on Sam's Hell. (Don't get me wrong, I like Castiel. But his "instant forgiveness" in this black and white attitude is ridiculous to me!) Castiel's actions are dismissed. But Bobby asks to be burned before he hurts anyone else. I don't get it. It's been declared on this show that humans killed while possessed is the right course of action (unless you know the human or you need to torture the demon). It's been shown that if you have good intentions and you are trying to save the world, you don't have to answer for killing humans like motivational speakers. However, if you are a monster and it's the first time in over a decade that you have killed, you have to be put down hard and cold.

Dean rather go behind Sam's back to kill Amy, but in the very next episode he's complaining that their "Black and White" case just because "grey." He had no trouble killing Amy over thugs being killed and leaving a child-motherles s, but this week he wants to leave the case because the monster is killing guilty criminal people. The very next week he lets the Starks go. Granted, they did try to kill them, but failed. But here's my problem, a monster who has found a way to survive without constantly killing people is killed in two seconds for trying to keep her son alive. But killing demon hosts by the bus load (-i.e. to get a mother and child back) is collateral damage? However, monsters can live when their either helpful to the Winchesters or too powerful. It's makes about as much sense as working with demons is bad unless it's okay for mutual assured destruction.

I can handle Sam killing Emma a lot better than Dean killing Amy, simply because Emma was going to kill Dean. Amy looked defenseless which is a total set up for stupid drama. Then Dean lies about it and uses Sam's condition as an excuse. (Which completely sickens me, because Dean gave this wonderful speech about being stone one and the first thing he does is breaks it. He decides to lie to his brother who is having trouble with reality instead of correcting the behavior immediately especially since he thought it was wrong. At the time, I thought the writers were going to twist it around and use Dean lying to Sam as a way to prove to Sam that this wasn't reality, because the "real" Dean Winchester wouldn't have done that. But now, it just upsets me that Dean would play the mental card. I'm so glad those writers aren't coming back, because Dean looked like a bully to me in "The Mentalist.") In a lot of ways, it was created lame drama when they already had plenty!! I'm not interested in Dean becoming the next black and white hunter because it seems like it is only used when it's convenient for Dean to follow that logic.

I can't keep up with it anymore. And to top it off, Dean's trust issues are becoming a huge problem with me. Does he trusts Sam or not? He seems to completely trust Castiel again or at least he rather have Castiel on his team than not. But I have no clue how he feels about Sam this season. I feel like Dean is being written like a huge hypocrite at times because I can't follow the logic or keep up with who he trusts this week. A part me still wonders whether or not Dean wants to be around Sam anymore. He's gotten from the guy asking "What should I do?" over his baby brother's dead body to the "I'll trust you only when it's convenient for me as long as you listen to me and tell me I'm right" guy. Huh? I don't like. I hated it last season when I thought after that god-awful montage that Dean would rather be with Lisa and Ben than Sam.

Dean's characterizatio n has been mutilated this season. I really have doubts when it comes to Dean, because of all these inconsistencies and lack of development from his "depression." All this bouncing around for the character of Dean this season has caused me to question the most basic fundamental aspect of Dean Winchester: loyalty. In "Time After Time" he didn't even try to figure out how to get back to his time. Sure, he was working a case, but he didn't care whether or not he was going to be stuck there permanently. So, what does that mean for Purgatory? I feel like a traitor for ever saying this. But if Dean doesn't care about anything anymore or trust anyone anymore, then he can't loyal. Being loyal means you care about something. And he doesn't. So, what does that mean for the brothers?

I feel like screaming "come back, Dean! Come back!" I don't like this guy. He was fine just the way he was. I don't want to ever question his loyalty to his family again! But how can you be loyal and not care? And how can you be loyal when you can't even establish a clear logical philosophy and carry it out?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-06 23:30
I saw shades of grey in all the seasons up until this one. Such as in Metamorphosis, that could have easily gone that Sam was right. Travis seemed to control himself until his wife was threatened. And your right, Sam saving people with Ruby seemed like a legitimate option (and from what Kripke has said it was supposed to) until close to the end. Even in Let It Bleed I think you were SUPPOSED to be disturbed to some extent by what Dean was doing, at least I hope so. But this season has been kill kill kill (unless it's too hard I guess) and the worst part is Sam agreeing with him! Sam has always been inclined to see the grey areas. And to see himself in the monsters. But he seems to have come over to Dean's side.

That's why I'm sincerely hoping that this was a setup for next season. And the more I think about the more I think it could be a great one. Dealing in depth with the moral ambiguity that comes with being a hunter and the effects on the boys. I'm ALL for that.

And if it links back to how Dean actually sees Sam that could be cool. Deep down does he see Sam as monster, but loves him too much to care or to even deal with it? If Amy wasn't just the set up for "lame drama" but a buildup to a more complex storyline I'm on board. Especially if it means Dean can move past all his trust issues and fully except Sam. Cause I've gotta agree with you Katie the Dean of this season doesn't seem as steadfast and loyal or as caring. I miss THAT Dean.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 03:38
Ok, I gotta agree with you Kelly, too :)

Sam the Doormat bores the crap out of me. And is very out of character. I know he had mental issues but come on!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-10 12:10
One of the things about season four was that the message was that Sam was wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME. If he saved 2,000 people in a town after Sam Hain had risen, he was wrong because he used evil powers. He was wrong about the Rugaru guy. Yes the Rugaru held out until his wife was threatened, but he still turned and proved that anything supernatural was wrong, wrong, wrong, unless Dean approved (see Castiel). He was exorcising demons and saving the hosts and he NEVER got credit for that. We never saw anyone thank him for saving them, because that would have made Sam look grey instead of bad.

Season four irked me, until this season it was my least favorite, but now...
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-10 13:13
I LOVED season 4. LOVED LOVED. And I thought they earned the storyline. Sam did save that town and I don't think we we're supposed to see that as a bad thing. Dean was freaked out but did defend him and Cas wasn't fully opposed either. I think it was supposed to/and did set up situational tension of a slippery slope. And again with the Rugaru it looked like it could go either way. I remember many of the reviews at the time were thinking Sam's powers might end up being a good thing (until it was revealed he was drinking blood-yeah that's hard to defend).

But I loved the story of how doing something wrong to saved people could be seductive-ratio nalize. Especially to ever logical Sam who said he wanted to make something good out to of the curse he'd been given. And then he ended up getting caught him the power of it. Sam had felt so powerless when trying to save Dean the year before, the idea that he could be swayed by the idea of not being powerless when it came to saving Dean or the world. THAT seems totally in line with Sam character then and he ended up making a huge mistake because of it.

THAT was a fantastic storyline. It was earned by all the seasons leading up to it and everything they'd been through. And if they are leading up to something as good as that for Dean for season 8-then I'll be totally happy.
(although as a fangirl, it MUST end up with them reconciling completely). Right now I feel with had all the disconnection with none of the payoff.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-10 13:28
Sorry but season 4 was a just a slippery slope to the disconnect the audience had with Sam. Sam didnt earn that and didnt deserve the idea's the season set out. Did anybody really think that after Dean returning from hell after selling his soul for Sam that presenting his sl like that was going to do anything for Sam?.

That there was going to be understanding no alot just saw Sam lying , sneaking , demon blood drinking , telling Dean boohoo , choosing Ruby over Dean , trying to strangle Dean , pride. selfishness and being wrong

I dont pretend I hate that season somewhere in there maybe there was some decent idea for Sam but the execution did Sam so much damage it got lost imo .I think season 4 is a marmite season you either love it or hate it :-) .
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-10 14:17
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. Because I thought the execution was fabulous. I NEVER saw Sam as being that bad (well except for the strangling Dean thing, but I knew he would never kill him). I saw him making some bad choices (mainly the demon blood). I didn't agreed with him sneaking around, but after Dean wigged out in Metamorphosis and threatened to hunt him, I didn't really blame Sam either. I didn't see him being selfish that season, in fact I don't really think I've ever seen him selfish (maybe a self-focused at times but not horrible so). He wasn't as thoughtful of Dean as he should have been. He didn't considered things from Dean perspective as often as he should, but I don't think Dean's always great about that either.

The boo hoo thing WAS mean, even being under the siren's spell that was hurtful after Dean had trusted him and confessed what he did. BUT he WAS under the siren spell. And Dean has said MUCH worse, being under no spell. I don't think Dean was portrayed as some kind of saint that season or season 5. He was a bit of an ass at times who broke the first seal by torturing. IMO people have rewritten the season in their heads to make Sam the total bad guy (oddly there are both Sam and Dean girls it the mix).

Sam drank demon blood and made one catastrophic mistake, but he was NEVER evil. If the writers had truly wanted to make Sam evil or completely unsympathetic it would have been all too easy. He would have been totally out for power. He could have known that Lucifer would be set free when he killed Lilith and been so far gone he did it anyway. As it was, he spoke of regret, worried if he was doing the right thing, he tearfully listened to Dean's faux voicemail message and then went off to sacrifice himself while killing Lilith to save the world. He didn't come off as a monster to me.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 20:47
Kelly, I think the problem w/Season 4 is that not enough time was spent on Sam's perspective. I didn't notice this while the season was airing, but in retrospect, I must agree w/all the Sam girls who complained about not getting enough from Sam re: his motives, etc. In that sense, Season 4 did hurt Sam for those who were on the fence re: him, and for those who already disliked Sam, their hatred grew and deepened.

Sam has yet to live down Season 4 actions. On another forum, I was debating w/people about - believe it or not - stuff Sam did in Season 4. I ended my part in the "debate" by saying if the things Sam did 4 years ago still bother you, then it's very likely, you'll never like Sam.

IMO, Dean has not suffered as much at the hands of the writers as Sam has. Now, I like and enjoy both brothers equally. I don't favor one over the other myself. I enjoyed Season 4, but believe Sam could have benefited from a "TMWWBK"-like episode in that season. It may have helped some understand him a bit more, esp. those who have no tolerance for him. I like Sam so while his actions disturbed and greatly disappointed me in Season 4, I never started hating him like others did. I'm sure that was not Kripke's intention, but that's definitely what happened.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-10 23:23
I would have loved a TMWWBK episode for Sam in season four. It would have made a world of difference. It is probably why I resent Cast GETTING TMWWBK. He wasn't a main character, but he got an entire episode to explain himself. Sam was silenced in season four and I don't think he ever got his voice back again. This was accentuated this season when Sam's insanity was ignored then given to Castiel. The lack of Sam POV hurt his character, and the relationship between Dean and him. That is one of the reasons season seven was so weak, IMHO.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-11 02:47
I dont think it would of occurred to them at any stage to give Sam a episode like TMWWBK or even a WIANSB .In season 4 it was about Sam's actions not Sam himself and what was driving him it was just how he acted and the impact on his relationship with Dean.

They had Dean in the mytharc and a brand new shiny relationship with Dean and Castiel to care about more that is what they were interested in .

This season again it was a lack of genuine brother relationship that hurt the season and small things like Dean dragging that coat around from car to car didnt help and a finale IMO that gave more to the Dean / Castiel relationship than Dean's with Sam.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 03:36
Wow. It's like you are speaking my mind dude!

I agree so very much.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-06-07 14:48
Yes, whatever happened to the latinating and forcing the demon to leave the human? That was the best way when there was the time for it. And who didn't love to hear Sammy latinating in that beautiful voice of his? :P

Bring some of that back to the show please.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-06 22:32
You have summed this season up so well. My biggest problems were that there were episodes where I felt the writers had the perfect opportunity to pull things out and right the ship (so to speak), and then they blew it each and every time.

The Amy mess, was a mess. I always thought Dean jumped the gun by killing her, but up until The Mentalists, I could see the Amy thing being used as a great way to explore the relationship between the boys. I'll discuss that part more when the Sam article is published, because that is where my problems lie.

DYL was a perfect opportunity for Dean to face his guilt and mo ve on, admit what he had done to Sam and start to grow, instead nothing.

Dean's kill all monsters became completely hypocritical in Shut Up Dr. Phil. He and Sam couldn't drive to the next town, pick up fresh chicken feet, keep them on ice and try again? Okay, the show has been fairly consistent that if the witch is female (the unwitting housewives in MM or Mrs Stark in SUDP) then the boys go in guns blazing. If the witch is male (Patrick in The Curious Case of Dean Winchester or Mr. Stark in SUDP) then the boys just let them go on their merry way. This does not make either of them look good, but with Dean in his "kill them all and let God decide" mode, his completely giving up on getting the Starks is completely not understandable. Then again he can't kill Emma and doesn't seem to be bothered that Castiel is still a supernatural being that killed thousands. It just doesn't jibe.

The worst assassination of Dean's character is in Born Again Identity. Yes, he worked hard to find a cure for Sam, but he does it at Rufus's cabin. He doesn't even bring the contact book to the waiting room so that he can be with Sam during visiting hours. Heck, it's not like they didn't have a waiting room set that could have been reused. They had the one from Death's Door. Instead, Dean leave Sam to potentially die alone while Dean is who knows how many miles away. Yes, he would have left to get the healer, but for the most part, I got no sense of urgency from Dean when Sam was dying.

Plucky Pennywhistle, while great fun, still defames Dean's character. He knows Sam is hallucinating. He knows Sam is terrified of clowns, yet he seems to enjoy watching an already psychotic, hallucinating Sam being in pain by facing his greatest fear. The episode was cute and funny, but Dean's actions were fairly cruel. In Everybody Loves a Clown, he was a brother being amused by his psychologically healthy brother acting all scared of clowns. Doing so when Sam is broken and fragile just seems wrong.

After episode 2, the entire season was bereft of any brotherly bond or insight into either Sam or Dean. I really hope the show can pull out of this and bring back the love between the brothers AND explore their characters. I really hope that the writers are finally willing to fix Dean. Let him talk about his PTSD from Hell. Let him rid himself of his useless, paralyzing guilt. Let him grow.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 03:46
Hi.

I agree on pretty much everything you've written. Esp. the hypocricy about killing Amy and then letting the Starks go. But I wouldn't necessary make it a male witch-he witch thing... I actually liked that they let Patrick go. He wasn't killing people per se, he was playing (no cheating was ever implied) for years. It was the peoples choices, he even let that one old guy go before Sam came to play. I'd say that he's little like a crossroads demon-ish type of guy except he isn't sentencing people to hell. He plays for their years, the people know the stakes. So he's not just killing people for shits and giggles. Like the Starks did which just pissed me off cause they were let go. I agree that they should have tried again. And agree that they should kill Meg and Crowley and the Alpha for instance, (even Cas ventures kinda in this area) because they are bad and have killed many people. End of story.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-07 08:52
To be honest, I've been bugged by the whole explanation of witches thing since TCCODW. In Malleus Maleficarum they all get their power from demons and when they die they go to Hell and become demons who are tied to their master and they happen to all be women in that episode. The next witch we see is Patrick who, yes, is playing honestly and sometimes letting people go (and what does his demon think of THAT?), but he is still stealing parts of people's lives in order to stay alive. And at the end, the boys don't even think about trying to stop him. As far as we know, he's still out there cutting short people's lives willy, nilly. I already talked about the my issues with the Starks. I guess what bugs me is the complete 180 degree turn on witches. They go from being puppets or minions of demons and who should therefore be stopped to likable (Patrick) and/or cute, funny powerful beings (The Starks) that kill people and the boys just kind of shrug their shoulders and go on their merry way. What happened to the demons? Are these witches doing their demon's bidding while still alive? In which case taking them out should be a priority. Or are there a couple of demons standing around, tapping their feet being deeply annoyed that Patrick and the Starks refuse to die, go to hell and become more demons? In which case, those demons are really stupid. Or was Ruby lying about witches, except in MM it was made clear she wasn't and since she was deep undercover, why would the demon who owned the coven help sell the story.

And all this really has nothing to do with season seven, but it has bugged for a while and Dr. Phil just reminded me of how much it bugged me.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 11:41
I'm not sure anymore if they even remember the canon according to witches (who were humans then demons puppets yada yada) allthough they did hint that in the Swapmeat eppie where Gary (or who ever he was) wanted to be a witch and asked that from a demon. But it seems that it could be possible that some people become witches some other way, who knows. They've rewritten things (or "evolved" might be the kinder word) to suit their needs before. But yes, the witches are being written very incoherently. But so are ghosts and demons too, so, I guess it's their playground and we just gotta deal with it. And discuss and ponder 'till we either go with the flow or go mad :D

I think we just gotta agree on certain things. I again don't see Patrick as stealing lives, allthough who knows how much more hunnier his sales speeches were, focusing more on the "You'll get to live your wonder years and push back old age" or being brutally honest. We did see the one guy in the beginning who had won (and the old guy who would have lost but Pat let him go) so I'd say he was an honest player, just a really good one since having done that for centuries. Not a good guy but not killing people for the sake of killing. BUT he did have an agenda. Would I have shed a tear had he died? Absolutely not. Witches are evil, that's been their canon. I would've been a bit miffed though since he was quite smoking hot with that lovely accent and lush hair :)

These issues of who gets to live and die according to the Winchesters are an interesting aspect to ponder since they wary so much from story to story. I guess your own personal opinions regarding certain characters also effect (like me with Patrick), if they are liked, like Cas generally is, then he will get away with a lot of shady things because we're so eager to find a reason for it. To find the 'why'. I usually can see the 'why' without much of a struggle. As a Sam fan, I think you've got to have that ability since his headspace is so seldom out in the front for us to see. This season even Sam has had me scratching my head at times, but atleast he had something to deal with, to obscure the view. Make me think of the 'whys' a bit harder. Where as Dean I just saw as depressed and apathetic, which is nothing new. Or interesting after all this time. But honestly, they were both all over the place from time to time this season.

And even when I'm being annoyed at Show, I can't help but be amazed that it still, after all these years, makes me think of these issues and delve into the greys. I still want to know the 'whys' :)

Sorry for the longness, something has ignited my commenting hunger :)
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 11:43
Sorry, was meant to say "I think we just gotta DISagree on certain things" :)
Clare
# Clare 2012-06-16 14:53
Quote:
Yes, he worked hard to find a cure for Sam, but he does it at Rufus's cabin. He doesn't even bring the contact book to the waiting room so that he can be with Sam during visiting hours. Heck, it's not like they didn't have a waiting room set that could have been reused. They had the one from Death's Door. Instead, Dean leave Sam to potentially die alone while Dean is who knows how many miles away.
Are you serious? I sincerely doubt Dean could have done the research he needed to in a hospital waiting room. I sincerely doubt he even had the contact book with him when he turned up at the hospital looking for Sam since Sam had clearly vanished and Dean was probably frantically searching for him. So if he had to drive all the way back to Rufus's cabin to get the contacts book, should he then drive all the way back to the hospital before doing the research?

This reminds me of how you used to whine on about how meen Dean left Sam to die alone in the panic room in 4.21 simply because he was shown having a conversation upstairs with Bobby. It was inane then, and is inane now.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-16 17:17
Hey, if I'm stuck with a complete and utter stranger who is detoxing from an unknown drug and I have no IDEA how the detox will go, I would without doubt keep watch on them 24/7 especially when I had someone switch off with. I most definitely would not tie them on their back unable to move just because I would be afraid that they would throw up and choke on their own vomit. The handling of Sam's withdrawal was poorly written on so many levels and is part of why I don't like season four.

So, no I'm not ashamed of my opinions and I stand behind them. Also, since I didn't start posting here until after season five, you are stalking me on the Internet, which...well okay then.
Clare
# Clare 2012-06-16 18:10
Quote:
since I didn't start posting here until after season five, you are stalking me on the Internet, which...well okay then.
I recognize your name – you used to use it at the CW Lounge. So no I am not "stalking" you. And when someone is hopped up on demon blood to the extent he chews on some demon to get his fix you definitely keep him immobile. If he threw up he could turn his head to the side. Even babies can do that and since you persist in infantilizing him I'm sure little Sammy could manage the maneuver too.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-06-16 18:56
Admin warning!

Percysowner and Clare, let's keep things civil, please. You're walking the line here, so please be respectful of each other. You don't have to agree, and you can debate, but attacking each other is off limits.

Thank you.

Ardeospina
KarenS
# KarenS 2012-06-16 20:06
Quote:
Hey, if I'm stuck with a complete and utter stranger who is detoxing from an unknown drug and I have no IDEA how the detox will go, I would without doubt keep watch on them 24/7
If I were "stuck" with someone who had just been resurrected from Hell and was being pursued by something supernatural that might be looking to drag him back there, I wouldn't leave him asleep in a motel room while I snuck off to vist my demon girlfriend.

Just sayin'.
Laurie
# Laurie 2012-06-21 00:53
I disagree with the Bourne Again Identity and Dean's leaving, though I HATED that episode. Worst one Gamble ever did.

Though I do agree about Plucky and the weird disconnect between Dean and Sam.

It reminded me of Yellow Fever - same writers, right? Dean was dying of that ghost disease, and had less than 24 hours to live, and Sam wandered around like a bored, annoyed hipster with better things to do. I had the sense that he would be indifferent if Dean died.

I hope Carver takes the writers to task and critiques each script, especially Dabb and Loflin, because they are always guilty of writing at least one of the guys OOC in every script.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-06 23:38
Hi, Alice! Thank you for the awesome article. I agree with you and most of what the other commenter here. So, I don't think I need to add more except one. It's about Dean's seemingly OOC reaction towards Ghost Bobby at the end of Of Grave Importance.

You see, I have the same experience. So, I can say that I get Dean this time. I have a tendency if I want something so badly I will do anything to get it. But when I get my hands on the item I tend to dilly dallying about it. It's the chasing and hunting proses that excites me. The research/though t process that is interesting. The result, not so much. I often thinking that I already get it so there's no urgency anymore.

Dean loves to entertain a thought that maybe Bobby is a ghost. It's exciting, scary, terrible, sad and all in one place to occupy his mind. And he also misses him. BUT when it turns out to be true that Bobby is a ghost he retract his steps and thinking.."Wow, Bobby IS a ghost. It's actually not interesting at all. It's terrible! What was I thinking of wanting him back before? Of entertaining this very fact before?"

Kinda like cold feet before you get married? You are so exciting about the preparation process but getting stuck on the Big day and dreading even going to the altar?

Think about it, please. It happens to the best of us. I really really want to meet this big star and to shake his hand but when I do stand in front of him I go mute and my feet turns to jello. :D It's the same thing just the other way around instead of a positive vibe meeting a star it's a negative vibe meeting a ghost. :P
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 05:16
Hi Alice.

I love these indepth looks on the boys through out the years. You've always been able to look at these characters and found something new in them, a progress or a journey in their trials throughout the seasons. And I totally agree that this season there was none of that. Nothing new was revealed regarding Dean. I was so bored for most of the season, because Dean was just the same old, same old. Give the guy a story for heavens sake, that does not consist on him being depressed and drinking. That boat has sailed many seasons ago.

I agree that the brotherhood is (and has been) missing. For a while now actually.They were on a such a good track in season 5. Dean had every reason to feel angry and betrayed and depressed but he was working his way out of it with Sams help and trustbuilding. And in the end, he did the biggest sacrifice imaginable, he let Sam go because that was what Sam wanted. If that did not prove to everyone how much he loved Sam, then I don't know what. That's the last of the Dean I know, though.

In season 6 there was too much time spent on SoullessSam -arc which was interesting and entertaining but went on for far too long. That demolished all the work between the brothers from seasons prior. So, the brotherhood was on the fritz for most of season 6 and then after Sam got resouled, nothing much happened because they were afraid of the wall collapsing. Then it did. By Cas. While he was still an angel (no godlike powers yet). Which was a choice I didn't and don't get. Cruelest choice imaginable, to me. So I can't forgive that just because he took on Sams crazy later. He also killed a buttload of people (and angels) on top of breaking his brothers head and still Dean carries his coat around wherever he goes??!! This season did many things that seemed just off. Again, in my opinion. Just because I think it's wrong, doesn't mean they were wrong. It just felt very OOC to me. And I can't help to think that it could've been fixed if a bit more thought had been put in to it. Now I'm not even sure that Dean even likes Sam anymore, all the urgency and care seem to be missing. Even a powerfull eppie like The Bourne Again Identity which had so much potential to be the BigBrotherDean episode, and I just didn't feel it. Like he was going through the motions. He seemed to show Cas more feeling than Sam. I don't know this Dean. He's just... off.

I gotta disagree on The Mentalist though. That episode is just the worst for me. I see nothing good in that. All I see is that Sam had no right be upset that Dean went behind his back and killed a monster that was saving her sons life. In front of said son. All that talk about stone nro 1 and then he just took all that trust and threw it out the window. I don't get this Dean. He was a major bitch himself and Sammy, in the end, ended up apologising which I hated even more. That's not the Sam I know. But atleast some of his doormat-ness can be explained that he did have mental issues at the time and was propable using Dean as his moral compass or something. But still. No. Ugh. Worst episode ever. I think what Katie said above, sums up my feelings quite well about the hupocricy of it all.

About GhostBobby. I really loved Deaths Door, it's the best eppie of the season but purely as a stand-alone for me. But if combined with the later GhostBobby storyline, it dimishes that glorious eppie a hell of a lot. GhostBobby was pointless to me. I didn't get it. I gotta agree a little with kaj on Deans GhostBobby -reactions. The idea, that a loved one is with you even after death is always a little romantic and sweet. But I think the bottom line is, Dean knows better. He's been there. He was willing to be back in season 2 but when Tessa told him what he'd become, I was certain that in the end, he was willing to go with her than be trapped and turned in to a vengeful spirit. I agree that we've met nice ghosts too but who can guarantee that that happens to you?! Are you really ready to risk it, 'knowing' that there are so many angry spirits out there? Knowing you might hurt people? And the fact that Bobby stuck around just baffles me in many ways. He 'should' know better. But I guess it's just one of these choices that he's made that makes absolutely no sense to me (like him not telling Dean that Sam was alive). I can see why he'd do it but I just don't really 'see' why. But Deans point I did get. They just handled it terribly, I agree with you there.

One thing on Deaths' Door though. I hate how they've thrown John in to the gutter and pumped up Bobby as the boys' father. He wasn't. He didn't raise the boys, not in my opinion. I liked when he was just UncleBobby who gave them room and board and helped them just be boys once in a while, but John raised them. Sure, he didn't always do a bang up job but he made them who they are today. Bobby helped sure, but I don't believe he can take the responsibility for raising them. They were grown men after all when they met again in season 1. Then he took on a more prominent role. After John had died. In Deaths' Door, I wish he'd said things like "I raised those boys too." or "They were my boys too.". Something that acknowledged that John was their father, warts and all. And Bobby respected that. But it didn't come out like that.

I'd like to end on a happy note though, and say that the cliffie this season left me with much more hope than the last seasons' did. I think season 8 could be quite different yet come back to the roots. Focus on the brothers, give them purpose. Actually give us a season 1 feel, instead of talking about it. Bring back the badass and clever hunters who enjoy life every once in a while and embrace their calling. Oh and Dean gets to beat up Roy and Walt :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-07 08:54
You have summed up a lot of my hate for The Mentalists. I'm still holding my entire argument for when we get the Sam episode, but boy do I agree with everything you said here about that episode. It could have been a relationship changing end to the Amy saga, with real consequences for the characters and instead it just made the Amy saga even more stupid.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 11:45
Yup, agree with you there. It could've gone somewhere interesting, but it ended up going nowhere. Which made no sense in the begin with. Why create all that drama, all that build up and then do absolutely nothing with it?!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-07 09:29
Okay, please please please can I have some help with something??

There have been many comments on here, and on articles throughout the season, in relation to people wanting to see a return of the 'old' Dean and that how he was written in season 7 was very out of character. (I might have been reading it wrong; I’m insane and blind from thinking and reading at this stage.)

I'm sorry for this but which 'old' Dean are people talking about? Is it a specific season Dean or is it a certain attitude, certain ethos Dean? I mean, what ‘Dean’ do people actually want to see back?

I’ve been debating Dean in my head for hours now and while that’s always pleasant I’ve come to a stage where I’m worried that the Dean I want to see, or the Dean I imagine, is a Dean that we might not have actually seen before, that I’m merely picking and choosing the ‘best’ bits of Dean and judging the characterisatio n of season 7 Dean against that. (Okay, that was tongue twisterish!) Because the thing is, when I think of season 7 Dean without ‘my’ Dean in mind, I don’t find his characterisatio n to be too off at all.

So help a girl out and just tell me what the Dean you want to see back is like. Cheers.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-07 10:10
You're right. Dean's gone through a lot of changes over the years and he can't go completely back to season 1 Dean it wouldn't be realistic and in a lot of ways he's grown and I wouldn't want him to.

I do want to see him move forward not back, well not completely. In season two, he seems to trust Sam implicitly despite being completely freaked out by the powers stuff. Such as with Born Under a Bad Sign, he didn't figure out immediately Sam was possessed by he knew that Sam couldn't have done the things he did.I'm not sure he would make the same call now.

In fact, I'm not sure of anything with this new version of Dean. There was a lack of urgency when dealing with Sam this season for the most part. Even compare how he was with Bobby in Death's Door to how he was with Sam in Born Again Identity. About Bobby he was frantic, pissed and in complete denial. About Sam, he just wasn't as intense IMO. He did everything he could to help definitely, but I almost got the impression he was going through the motions. I know he was supposed to be fighting apathy or whatever, but this was SAM. Even when Dean was at his angriest with Sam in season 5, he looked devastated when he got shot and impaled.

I would like that to be for a reason and I if somewhere down deep he does have issues with Sam than I want him to deal with them and get over it. Or if it's just inconsistent writing than I want them to fix it.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 11:27
Kelly, I couldn't agree more w/you about TBAI. I hated that episode, and I was one of the fans who was calling out for MORE re: Sam's hallucinations. I know some considered it a nice wrap up to Sam's "arc," but I disagree.

Dean's attitude and whole presence lacked passion, urgency, or just plain interest in Sam's condition. Sam was on the verge of death, but you couldn't tell from the way Dean behaved. The same passion and care I felt from Dean toward Sam in MTNB, HCW, M3: TR, or any Season 1 or 2 episode where Sam was injured/hurt was not present in this very important episode. As you said, it's like Dean was just going through the motions but didn't really care what happened in the end.

I didn't feel any urgency from Sam either, but I'll save that for the Sam article. TBAI was just bad, IMO. I've only seen it once, but I don't recally it being anything to rave about except for the beginning sequence. I liked that part of it. There weren't even any good brotherly moments in it. Remember Sam speaking to a comatose Dean in IMTOD or Dean speaking to Sam's dead body or Sam sitting by Dean's bedside, demanding that Castiel "fix" Dean. Those wre great brotherly moments, and I don't think we got any in TBAI.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-10 13:28
I actually really loved that episode, except the coat scene (I tried to rationalize but it still seems ooc and the end if they'd had just one more scene between Sam and Dean. I might have been happy. At the time I was thinking that they were leading up to something else and it would come when that happened and we got NOTHING. That still pisses me off. Because I really do think they ran out of time on the episode. Ben Edlund in The French Mistake was making a joke, but he was right. Cut an action scene(demons), cut a character (meg) cut that coat scene, but DON'T cut the scene with the boys talking about their feelings. ESPECIALLY with Sam being so close to death. ARGGGH!

Maybe this is all a setup for season 8. That's become my new mantra.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 19:55
Kelly, I lost faith in the writers in Season 5. They really, IMO, screwed up the reconciliation btw the brothers. Some expected more afterFallen Idols, but I had a feeling we wouldn't get much.

This is not really the place for it, but much of Sam's story was a massive disappointment to me, including TBAI. I don't know. The whole thing seemed off to me. If the build up had been better, I might have enjoyed the episode more. Everything was rushed. We spent little time during the season on how Sam was coping w/the hallucinations, and then went straight to him suffering a massive mental break. I honestly can't recall if there was another episode focused on Sam's hallucinations btw RM and TBAI. All I know is I felt the story was short-changed, and that Sam went from okay to stone cold crazy in 20 seconds. There was no build up. As a stand alone, maybe it was an okay episode, but not the conclusion to a 1.5, 2-year arc.

It was all very anti-climatic and low-key, IMO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-17 23:15
Sorry, on the delay of reply- been busy.

I don't know about TBAI. Like I said I really enjoyed it when it aired and still loved several of the scenes, but agree that if that is the conclusion of Sam's hell storyline it does feel anti-climatic. I feel like in a holding pattern for the last part of the season. It just doesn't FEEL complete to me. Now I had the opposite impression on season 5. I totally and completely LOVE that season. I have re-watched those episode so many times, way more than season 1 (which is probably MY least favorite season). I loved the drama and even the angst, because for me it felt earned.
Now I would agree that the reconciliation scene in PoNR felt too short after nearly 2 years of distrust and anger. That's way to some extent I would almost be glad to see some of Dean's trust issues brought to the surface again in season 8 so that they could resolve more completely.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-07 10:38
I'd say Tim, that it's not so much that I want some older version of Dean back, just something to happen to him, storywise, characterwise. I can see 'some' changes in him this season but they are the same changes that has been happening for many years now. How much can he take? When will he break down? And why hasn't he allready? He has nothing to live for it seems. I'd like to see a story for him, not just angst and more loss.

I know he can never be the devil-may-care from season 1 but I'd like him to have some spirit back, some dance in his step once in a while. To enjoy life. To feel like he does something important and that he matters. This gloom and doom Dean just bores me because he's been that way for so long. Why is he hunting? He's so apathetic, I can't see him caring about anyone or anything. Even Sam. And that's just bleak. I just feel like enough is enough.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-07 16:03
This is a hard one Tim. I agree with the others that I would at least like to see some consistency between episodes with Dean. I would also like him to go back to being smart, as opposed to needing Bobby, Cas, Frank, and practically every one shot character having to help him and Sam figure out the answers. Dean was smart enough to think of salt loaded shells and build his own homemade EMF detector. Depression can interfere with people's ability to think, but this has gone too far.

Most of me wants to say I want to see Dean show that he cares about Sam again, but I'm honestly not certain he does. Dean didn't begin forgive or trust Sam until PONR when Sam showed complete trust in Dean. He made his final peace with Sam after Sam decided to jump into the cage. The thing is, it's a really heartless move to not at least SAY you forgive someone who is dying. There's an old saying that if everybody was told that it was 5 minutes until the world ends, the phones would be clogged with people reaching out to say "I love you" and "I forgive you" for those last minutes. It's easy to forgive when you know you aren't going to have to deal with someone again AND when you know they are sacrificing themselves for the greater good and to correct their mistakes.

I know Dean was grateful to see Sam alive again, but I honestly believe that dealing with Soulless Sam may have destroyed all the good will that Sam had managed to regain in season 5. Then Sam came back with a wall in his head and Dean couldn't allow himself to upset that balance, so I think the rift came back albeit in a different form. Then Castiel destroyed Sam's wall and "died". I can make the argument that with Cas gone, Dean couldn't deal with his anger about Cas directly, so he may have developed a resentment toward the one thing that was a constant reminder of Cas's betrayal, Sam. It isn't a logical or reasonable reaction, but people project their anger at the wrong target at times, so I could understand it.

So as much as I want Dean to love and trust Sam again, I could live with Dean admitting he just doesn't anymore IF the writers actually spent some time dealing with that. For me, this season failed miserably in showing a relationship between Sam and Dean. They had Dean not rejecting Sam this season, but, outside of episode 2, not acting like he cared one way or the other about Sam's welfare. There is material to be mined here, but I don't know if they will dig for the potential gold in this or if they will just keep Dean acting like a hunters who works with a partner because it makes the hunts safer, not because he cares what happens to Sam.

Before anyone says anything, Sam too seemed less invested in the relationship, but for more than half the year Sam was having a psychotic break, and he still indicated that he was worried about Dean's drinking and how Dean would react to Bobby's death, plus I'll talk about Sam in the Sam article.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-07 19:13
I never thought Dean didn't love Sam (although if this was the only season I watched I might wondered). I am left with the impression he has trust issues-even with Sam. Who really doesn't deserve that anymore. He should have long since regained his trust. And he does seem less invested in his relationship with Sam. I haven't seen the same thing with Sam, but it is a matter of perception.

I also wouldn't mind if they mind this for a story it has a lot of potential but I DO want the end result to be that they wind up closer with trust of both sides.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 11:41
Percy, I think it is a writing issue rather than a Dean issue. What I mean is I don't think Dean is having trust issues w/Sam or that he doesn't love or care about Sam. The writers just chose to - aside from 3 episodes, IMO (MTNB, HCW, and Plucky's) and few one offs like Sam's plea to Dean in the episode w/the daugher - largely ignore and disregard the brother relationship to the show's detriment, IMO. The relationship btw the brothers definitely suffered this season.

I know many hated Season 6, but I felt and believed Dean cared about his brother's soul and getting his brother back Dean made his deal w/Death and didn't hesitate in choosing Sam over Adam. I enjoyed the SS arc myself, but it had to end and that reunion hug was the best. I loved Dean's protectiveness over Sam and his wall when it came to Bobby, Samuel, or Castiel. To me, the brothers were on track and working together. Sam became more mute in the 2nd half of Season 6, but they seemed intuned with eac other and appeared to genuinely like working together. I felt the urgency from Dean when Cas collapsed Sam's wall. Dean only left Sam b/c they had to stop Cas/Crowley. I had ZERO issues w/the brotherly bond during Season 6, and I don't recall ver many complaints about it.

Not nearly as many complaints about this season where the brothers have been written more like co-workers than brothers who would, and have died for each other. To me, their relationship is the heart of the show. For whatever reason, Sera removed the heart from the show, which is why many consider this the worst season of Supernatural ever written.

If someone asked me to name some brotherly moments, I could come up w/three: (1) warehouse scene in HCW; (2) Sam's plea to Dean at the end of that episode w/the daughter; and (3) the entire clown episode. That episode was a joy to watch b/c it had a Season 1 feel.

So, I think your questions re: Dean have more to do w/the bad writing this year than anything real or substantive w/Dean like him not trusting Sam, etc.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-10 13:42
The only problem I have with season 6 is that the Soulless Sam had a few too many episode. TOO LONG WITHOUT SAMMY. And also I felt several of the writers had trouble mining that version of the character. But I loved a lot of that season even SS episodes. And the reunion was AMAZING.

I thought they had good brotherly banter this season (although I supposed it could be seen as coworker banter too). And again if Sam had not had his wall torn down and been on the edge of death and Bobby had not died, I might of been good with the moments we got. But the way it happened not only does it feel like missed opportunities but also feels like necessary storyline scenes weren't written.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 19:10
See, I'm one of the few who didn't think the SS arc was too long. In fact, I would have been fine w/it lasting even longer.

I really enjoyed SS and his interactions w/Dean. I even feel SS and Dean had more brotherly moments than Sam and Dean this year. It's very strange. I felt the boys were very isolated from each other this year. Their individual stories were kept isolated and separate. I'm not sure why they did that. The show works best, IMO, when the boys are interested in each other's lives. That didn't happen so much this year.

As far as I'm concerned, Sam had no story. If he had issues w/his hallucinations, he mostly kept them to himself so much so that we, the audience, weren't even privy to the extent of his issues/problems . Dean rarely inquired about Sam's welfare or how he was coping, but then Sam showed no outward signs of having issues so maybe Dean assumed he was okay. Who knows? Dean's depression was the focus of a large part of the season but we rarely saw Dean discussing his feelings w/Sam or even Bobby. I can only recall one instance of Sam talking to Dean about his depressed attitude, and that was at the tail end of the arc.

In Season 6, even w/Sam missing, I felt the connection btw the brothers. While I loved SS, I couldn't wait until REAL Sam returned. To me, they fell right in step in LAV. It was like Sam had never gone away. I didn't feel the disconnection I had in Seasons 4 and 5. They didn't feel like co-workers like they did this season. They conversed and had many brotherly moments. I feel Season 5 was low on brotherly moments as well, which is why - before this season - it ranked last on my list. However, this season was the worst on everything, esp. the brothers' relationship. They were practically strangers to me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-12 10:23
I've always felt the SS storyline went on either too long or too short. It was too short for me because we had way, way too many episodes of "what is wrong with Sam THIS year". If Castiel had just told us the he brought Sam's body back, but his soul was gone and we had just gotten to the heart of the matter, then ending it at midseason would have worked. We would have had time to get to know SS and we would have had time to see Dean trying to do his Pygmalion job to make SS think and act like a "real boy". They were going there for a few episodes where Dean was telling Sam the moral thing to do and I really enjoyed that part.

If the arc had been for the entire year as planned, we could have seen Dean teaching SS to behave morally and have SS actually start using What Would Dean Do to function. There could have been bonding of a sort between Dean and SS and the return of Sam's soul would have been somewhat tragic because it would have meant the "death" of a character that we knew and Dean had grown to feel responsible for. Bringing Sam's damaged, tortured soul back would have been right and necessary, but we would have had more sympathy for SS's argument that they were killing HIM only to bring back a drooling, broken soul who would probably die and take SS with him.

For the record, I'm the odd duck that liked season six. It had too much going on to be coherent, what with Soullessness and Lisa &Ben, and Campbells and Cas being the Big Bad, but if the writers had ditched a couple of those storylines (the Campbells at least and maybe Lisa and Ben). I think we could have had a good season that really came together. At least in season six I felt the caring between Sam and Dean. Heck even SS decided that he wanted to stay hunting with Dean and also decided that if Dean thought getting his soul back was a good idea, then he would go for it. SS only balked after angels and demons alike told him that getting his soul back would kill him, or leave him insane.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-12 10:53
I can see both your points on SS. But I don't think the some of the writers took full advantage of SS. They just made him kind of a blank slate, i.e. All Dogs Go To Heaven. It wasn't bad it just was kind of meh.

Also once I knew Sam was still in the cage being tortured. I wanted him out like NOW. For me it was hanging over the episodes. So for that to go on a full season in addition to being a full season without SAMMY would be too much for me. That is definitely one time where love of character won over love of story.
AggieD
# AggieD 2012-06-12 11:55
Off topic! Since you mention 'All Dogs Go To Heaven'

I can't believe that woman chucked Lucky out. If I could talk to my dogs, I'd be the one in heaven.

On topic. I liked Soulless Sam too. The emptiness had a true resonance and I thought his panic at the end was so well done. Like percysowner, I thought Season 6 was OK on balance. Had some really strong episodes (Weekend at Bobbys, the fairy episode, the Death episode...) alongside some duds, and there were big themes (not the Campbells) that just needed playing out stronger.

Quote:
If the arc had been for the entire year as planned, we could have seen Dean teaching SS to behave morally and have SS actually start using What Would Dean Do to function. There could have been bonding of a sort between Dean and SS and the return of Sam's soul would have been somewhat tragic because it would have meant the "death" of a character that we knew and Dean had grown to feel responsible for. Bringing Sam's damaged, tortured soul back would have been right and necessary, but we would have had more sympathy for SS's argument that they were killing HIM only to bring back a drooling, broken soul who would probably die and take SS with him.
This would have made a good season great. JP has fantastic comic timing, which was working in a lot of those situations, in the fairy episode in particular. I've been grumbling elsewhere about the lack of depth in Sam's characterisatio n but this would have been a really good dynamic to explore. SS clearly felt the lack of something and was trying to make other mental facets take up the slack. To be fair the scene where Death brings the soul was terrific in any case.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-12 12:26
Keeping off topic I HATED, HATED, HATED All Dogs Go To Heaven and if I had been the mother I would have taken Lucky to a kill shelter, and I don't believe in kill shelters.

The guy gets his jollies watching while she undresses and showers and then cuddles up with her in bed and she doesn't know he is human. He kills a landlord for wanting (heaven forbid) to have the rent paid. Newsflash, you live in a apartment you pay rent. He kills the boyfriends brother for being abusive to the woman AFTER the boyfriend kicked his brother out and put a stop to it. He kills the boyfriend because the boyfriend is abusive. Abuse is wrong and terrible, but it doesn't have a death sentence attached unless the abuser actually kills someone. Frankly, I really thought half of Lucky's "protection" of the woman (who made so little impression that I can't remember her name) would be called separating her from any support system and making her reliant on him if done by a human being to his girlfriend. Except LUCKY WAS HUMAN.

ADGTH is my A #1 example of hypocrisy by Dean about supernatural. Yes, he didn't want the SS to kill the woman while taking out the pack. But Dean made no attempt, whatsoever to try and find Lucky, who was programmed to turn his next family into shifters. He either let Lucky go because Lucky was a cute doggy woggy, or because SS believed Lucky needed to be killed and we the audience had to know that SS could (like regular Sam) NEVER, EVER be right about what monsters to take out. Also, we were supposed to view this murder as being like Dean and only wanting a family of his own. The contrast between Lucky and Amy (yes, I CAN bring this back to season seven, who knew?) sickens me. Lucky kills people that are no real threat to his "family" and whose death doesn't save the lives of his "family" and he gets The Littlest Hobo" edit. Amy finds a way to live without killing anyone, kills about the same number of people that Lucky did to save her son's life and she gets the Sam finally agrees she needs to die edit. HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE HATE! (Maybe some day I'll tell you all how I really feel about ADGTH.

I would watch Route 666 and Bugs 100 times before I would ever touch ADGTH.
AggieD
# AggieD 2012-06-12 13:01
Ha, don't hang back!

What on earth is a kill shelter btw?? That's one hell of a contradiction.

I didn't get the impression Lucky got his jollies watching her undress. Dog's penises are typically somewhere between often and usually on display, but Lucky remained demure. I believe he preferred a furry mate.

He seemed like a genuine hybrid between dog sensibility and human understanding. Particularly being a GSD, a breed which has a strong protector instinct based on its original sheepdog function. (It would have been interesting if some of the whatever they weres had turned out to be chihuahuas, or something demanding and shrill.)

But (I'm mining my borrowed insights from Cesar Millan here) dogs respond emotionally. The family, more particularly, the woman and her kid (can't remember their blummin' names either) are fearful of the rent demands/abuse and the dog responds without regard to the actual cause by going into protect mode. It makes sense from a dog point of view.

I forgot that he was a killer though, to be honest, due to The Littlest Hobo exit. I just thought 'Poor sod'. Helped by the fact that I liked the actor too. Someone run after Lucky and bring him over here. I've got plenty of people he can 'help' with and the whole dog/translate thing would be a treat.

It's kind of on the zero / neutral scale for me in terms of Dean's moral/pragmatic response to the creatures they confront. Can't remember it very well but I seem to remember that this episode had the first real conversation between the brothers about Sam's new soulless state, at a picnic table in the park??
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-16 17:36
A kill shelter is an animal shelter where the dogs are put down once they run out of space. They are often public shelters, like the pound and they really have no choice in the matter. They are tasked with getting strays off the street and if they don't get adopted eventually cages have to be freed up to make room for the new dogs. They are sad places and the staff does the best they can with limited resources and owners who are completely irresponsible. There is one county in my state that only has 18 cages for dogs. They are somewhat rural, don't have a lot of money and people get the incredibly stupid idea that if they dump their pet in a rural area, the pet will just live off the land and the owner just walks away. This shelter is toes on Craigslist weekly with pictures of their dogs and telling people that these dogs will be put down by this date if they are not adopted.

You and I are just looking at it from different viewpoints. To me, Lucky was a person who was able to change shape into a dog, but he retained his human nature. You disagree. I don't think the show was totally clear on which was right, so we see it differently. To me the man that turned into Lucky was no more a dog than the Shifter that took on Dean's form was Dean. You see him as a dog protecting his family. I see him as a serial killer the show decided to let walk free, in which case the Littlest Hobo treatment is as safe as you can get. Lucky looked purebred and was housebroken and did tricks. He probably would have been adopted and would still have been the ticking time bomb ready to turn his entire family into shifters when the Alpha Shifter gave the command. Maybe he won't bond with another family and kill anyone who looks at them the wrong way or kill the husband so he can cuddle up to the grieving widow.

I REALLY HATED that episode. Mileage varies and others liked it. It's just a different way of seeing it.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 05:43
The thing I didn't like about it was at the end when Souless Sam admitted to Dean he was just pretending to care about him. Dean realized it was because he wasn't truly Sam, not all of him, but Jensen did a really good job of showing how much it hurt Dean to hear that. Like he was fighting tears.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 09:17
Okay, I must be fairly emo, because that was the only part of the episode I really like. LOL. I liked seeing how much this being not!Sam effected Dean. Jensen did a great job.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-12 12:48
Not odd w/me, Percy! I also LOVED Season 6. We are definitely in the minority on that - at least w/the online audience.

I liked Season 6 from the very start. I immediately knew something was off w/Sam and just couldn't wait to find out what was wrong w/him. I liked ALL the Campbells. I didn't care for Lisa/Ben, but they weren't shown enough to be truly annoying. I Were there too many plots? Sure, but as you said, if Sera & Co. had dropped the boring Lisa/Ben angle and focused more on developing the Campbells and SS, that would have been great!

In all, I found Season 6 to be very enjoyable. It was much more enjoyable than Season 5, and it was miles AHEAD of the awful Season 7.

I never had a problem w/the SS arc, but I agree that your thoughts on carrying it out over the year would have been good! I would liked to see it play out that way.
_____________________________

I also liked ADGTH. I know I'm in the minority on that as well. I thought that woman was a witch for being so mean to Lucky, but I liked the episode. Admittedly, I have a dog, so seeing Lucky, the dog, just wander the streets really made me sad. I hear your point, Percy, about "Lucky," the man being a dirty perv but I can't get that picture of that lonely dog walking the street out of my mind!

In any event, I enjoyed the episode for fleshing out SS more. To me, it really highlighted how different SS was from "real" Sam. I love the conversation btw SS and Dean at the end where SS confesses to killing innocent people to get the job done. Dean is mortified, and SS is so nonchalant about the whole thing.

I actually liked SS. He was interesting. I thought Jared did a good job w/him.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-12 13:14
Well that is what you get making a 'monster' look like a lovely cute dog it takes the edge off what they do and giving him the Littlest Hobo treatment just added to it .
I wont get into the Amy situation because I have given my view on that already .
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-13 12:01
Good to know that someone enjoyed Season 6. I loved it!! For some similar reasons you mentioned and I found the suspense absolutely great. As good as Season 5 in a different way.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-06-07 09:41
I haven't read all the comments here yet, but there's something I've been thinking about for a while about what went wrong with this season.
I've really enjoyed season 7 actually, but as this article has highlighted, there's been very little in the way of great character deveoplment, and what I've been wondering is if it's maybe because the writers have let the stories drive the characters more, rather than the other way around.
Kripke used to talk about how he'd often wanted to pull the show and the characters in a particular direction, but the characters wouldn't really let him. I'm sure in this case there are plenty of stories we never got to see because they just didn't work for where Sam and Dean were at various moments in the story.
Now, if I look back at season 7, it just seems the writers had a whole bunch of stories to tell, and told them whether or not they worked emotionally in terms of the Winchesters . By doing that, inadvertantly or not, they've shifted the focus away from Sam and Dean as characters we can relate to and made them into whatever case they were in that particuar episode, and that doesn't work when we've had at least five years of great character exploration to get to know these guys. Just because they need someone who knows how to sky dive so they can hunt a giant flying harpie in free fall or something, doesn't mean I'm suddenly just going to believe Dean's been sky-diving for years when I've always been shown that he's afraid of flying.
Like Plucky's. I loved that episode and the hour of pure ridiculousness it provided, not to mention how happy I was to see the broters looking happy and actually laughing. But if you look at it in terms of where we were before and where we went after, it just didn't fit. It didn't really make sense that either of them would be in such good moods, especially since Dean in particular had spent most episodes depressed and apathetic. And I noticed that a few times.

In the end though, I can't help but hope they'll be able to come out better next season and I think it's very possible, I think they just need to focus on the brothers and let everything else fall into place, rather than having the brothers fall into line with everything else.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-07 10:21
That's a good point. I have notice that several times where it seems the plot was driving the character rather than the characters driving the plot. Some shows, even with strong leads, this works. It doesn't with SPN. Sam and Dean ARE the show. They should be the ones driving the story.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-06-07 15:09
And that, I feel, is the problem and am hoping against hope that next season will allow the brothers to BE the show again!
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-10 13:16
Thanks for the article! I've been waiting for an opportunity to discuss Dean all year. Unfortunately, I think Dean suffered from the same thing that plagued the entire season: no direction.

My main problem with this season is it seemed to be without purpose or direction. I don't think Sera or anyone actually sat down and thought about what they wanted to do with the characters or how they wanted the characters to grow and change from their current situation.

It seems like Dean was given the depression arc because they didn't know what else to do with him. It's not like they intended to resolve Dean's depression or the lack of interest he's had in hunting since John's death. Those angles were left unresolved. Dean was depressed simply for the sake of being of depressed. It served as a placeholder until Bobby's death so Dean could then become obsessed with revenge. Honestly, I wasn'teven sure why Dean was depressed this year. It's not like Sam's suffering from the hallucinations was so overwhelming and debilitating that Dean was depressed. Sam functioned perfectly well for the majority of the season. (More on my disappointment for Sam this year in his article.) Bobby hadn't died before Dean became so depressed. You could say Dean was sad because Cas died, but I don't think so. I don't know what drove Dean's depression this year apart from laziness and a lack of creativity from the writers.

What most upsets me is that Dean suddenly wasn't depressed anymore. It was just dropped. Hisdisillusionm ent with hunting also wasn't addressed. It was dropped along with the depression, thereby making HALF the season a complete waste of time. Dean's arc had no impact or affect on his life so it was a pointless venture. What did Dean learn this year? How did he grow? There are no answers to those questions.

Dean just existed. I was mentioning earlier that another reason the season was a bust was because the brothers barely interacted aside from the first two episodes and Plucky's. There were very few brotherly moments, which is vital to the show, IMO.

This season was awful. I don't think Dean was damaged because of the crappy writing but hopefully JC will put more thought into the show and the stories for the brothers be them emotional or more tied to the mytharc. Better writing is a must!
Lynx
# Lynx 2012-06-12 05:37
I'm late to the party, I know but it has taken me a while to put together my thoughts on Dean this season.
While I do have issues with Dean's characterisatio n this season, I think that what I found most frustrating about Dean's storyline in season 7 is that a lot of issues were exposed but they weren't really resolved. I feel like we got the beginning and the middle of the story, but where is the ending?

Hello Cruel World exposes Dean's suicidal tendencies with his voice mail message to Bobby, threatening to strap Sam into the car and drive them both off the pier. Then the whole issue just sort of disappears. Bobby never mentions the voice message. Dean never mentions suicide again although it could be said that he courts suicide by monster in episodes like Time After Time and Slice Girls it could just as well be said that he just doesn't care if he dies. He tells Sam that he'll try not to get himself killed in Slice Girls but he's not really convincing. So when did Dean get over being suicidal and how? Or is he still suicidal?

In The Girl Next Door, Dean's trust issues were raised. Dean doesn't trust Sam's judgement anymore so he lies and goes behind Sam's back. But the issue is not resolved in this episode, Dean continues to lie to Sam until the leviathan doppelganger reveals the truth to Sam. When the truth does come out Dean says he's having trouble trusting anyone since Cas went dark side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that we ever saw the "Ah ha" moment when Dean does start to trust again. By the end of the season does Dean really trust Sam's judgement? Can we tell? If he does, how did he get there?

In Defending Your Life, Dean's guilt issues are raised. Dean feels guilty about pretty much everything whether it's his fault or not (and every man and his dog who ever watched a single episode of Supernatural already knew this). But was anything actually resolved? Dean still feels guilty at the end of the episode because he's still lying to Sam from last episode. Does he feel any less guilty about Jo? Does he feel any less guilty about dragging Sam back into "The Life"? Does he feel any less guilty about torturing souls in Hell? Does he feel any less guilty about everything else that wasn't really his fault? How do we know? Does it show in the rest of the season that he fells less guilty?

In Shut Up Dr Phil, Dean's growing problems with alcohol are exposed. He's always been a drinker but in this episode he's shown drinking the hard stuff first thing in the morning, emphasis is placed on the fact that he is going into a bottle shop, and Sam is shown to be reacting to how much Dean is drinking. But again the issue is not really resolved. Granted, once the truth about Amy comes out and Dean no longer has to lie to Sam the drinking seems to ease off a little however Sam asks in Party On Garth whether Dean is even capable of getting drunk anymore, so it's pretty obvious that he still drinks fairly heavily.

The Mentalists builds on the trust issue brought up in The Girl Next Door but still doesn't resolve it. Yes, Dean admits that he's having trouble trusting anyone but does he start to trust again after this?

Time For A Wedding exposes the fact that Dean really doesn't want to look to closely at his own problems. At the end of the episode, Sam tells Dean that while he will always need Dean, he's doing ok and Dean can focus on himself for once and the look on Dean's face shows that he REALLY doesn't want or know how to do that. So, does Dean actually start to face his issues after this? Does he face his fear that his time in Hell turned him into a monster? Does he face the loss of his dream of a home and family? Does he resolve either of these issues? When? How? And how do we know? Does it show in the rest of the season?

How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters raises Dean's apathy and depression for examination. They've steered the world away from the edge of the cliff twice already and now it's heading for the cliff again and Dean can't see the point of stopping it this time since it obviously wants to end. Bobby tells him he needs to find a reason to keep hunting in this episode, Frank tells him to either quit or decide to be fine 'til the end of the week and do the same again next week in Adventures in Babysitting, and Elliot Ness in Time After Time tells him that everyone loses everything and at least as a hunter he's making a difference. Do any of these talks actually achieve anything? Dean seems to be just going through the motions for the rest of the season. He goes after Dick Roman as revenge after Bobby is killed but it seems a bit half hearted to me, as if he's only doing it because it's expected. Even when Sam is dying from his psychosis, there's a distinct lack of urgency from Dean. I don't know whether it was intentional or if this episode is just a victim of bad writing, poor editing or too much happening in too little time, but as Dean is still apathetic 'til the end of the season I'm assuming it was intentional. Like Alice said "I get it, Dean’s burned out by this point. Still, it isn’t very fun or interesting to watch."

I could go on but this post is way to long already! Suffice to say that I really hope next season we get some resolution.
misty
# misty 2012-06-12 18:19
I never once felt that Dean stopped loving Sam. In fact, I still think Sam is pretty much the ONLY thing Dean still cares about. I think after someone has been through and also seen all the horrible stuff Dean (and Sam) have been through, it's got to affect you profoundly. I truly think Dean wishes he could leave the hunting life and have true love and a wife and kids and the family life he and Sam were denied, but it's been proven to him that that can't happen for people like them. So he just keeps on hunting, and getting more and more morose and suicidal. He can't possibly come back from Purgatory next season unscarred and undamaged from the experience, so hopefully, we will see some kind of progress with the drinking and depression issues. And hopefully, much better writing and stories for him and Sam.
misty
# misty 2012-06-12 18:25
Also, I think maybe it's hard for Dean to just break down and admit he needs help and that he's drowning because heck, EVERYBODY pretty much calls him a wuss every time he even tries to get deep, telling him to suck it up you big baby take it like a man. Ok, everybody but Sam (and Cas, once time). So maybe,he feels, in order to be a strong man, like his Dad, he has just just push all his pain down inside. Which of course, is just asking for a suicide attempt or nervous breakdown eventually.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-13 11:53
Somehow I do not think that Dean killing Amy was out of character. He always had this big brotherly patronizing attitude towards Sam and this has been evident in the earlier seasons. He believes he knows better and this is a way for him to act this out. And then he likes to kill monsters, much more than Sam. The shoot first talk later mentality. So it was just what Dean would do and feel that Sam was wrong in letting her go. He couldn't tell Sam about it because Sam was in a delicate mental state. True, they have let monsters go before but here I think here Dean was simply defying Sam, a kind of ego thing. Not that the writers brought this out. It's just my own reasoning.
And yes, the boys did let the Starks go. That wasn't right and Dr. Phil is my least favorite episode of the season. They should have both come back to kill the Starks. Maybe the writers just got bored.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-13 14:00
Dean was very prepared, IMO, to debate w/Sam about the necessity of killing Amy like they've done in the past. Dean referred to Amy as a "freak," and Sam bristled and got visibly upset as he always does when Dean either calls him a freak or aligns him w/"freaks."

Despite Dean's denials that he wasn't referring to Sam as a "freak" (and I don't believe he was), Sam still went into that long speech about how he knows he's a freak and how he's accepted it. Sam went on to say something like even though Amy is a freak/monster, she's managing it and not killing on a regular basis.

Sam identified w/Amy on a personal level. Sam sees himself as a freak. He has since childhood. He sees himself as a monster, and recognizes that he's killed people, etc. Sam wants to see the "good" in monsters/freaks b/c he identifies w/them and doesn't see himself as completely evil, etc.

Dean dropped it b/c he saw how Sam reacted. He knew Sam was in a delicate mental space and just decided to not further debate w/him on how Amy needed to be killed, esp. since Sam sees himself as a freak.

If the resolution had picked up on these themes, then I wouldn't hate the storyline so much. The actual episode isn't bad, IMO, but b/c the resolution was so crappy and dumb that it made no sense.

Sam was upset b/c Dean was lying to him about his feelings and Dean was upset b/c he hates lying to Sam. Huh? What about Sam identifying w/freaks or Dean trying to spare his brother pain, etc? The resolution to the Amy drama was just plain bad, IMO.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-17 23:26
Yeah were completely on the same page here. It wasn't the episode that I had a problem with, nor did the kill seem that OOC to me.(I didn't agree with him killing Amy but I could see that POV) My main problem was the continuation and resolution.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-13 11:57
Also, not culminating Dean's drinking and depression into some sort of climax situation also points towards lazy writing. A lack of coordination between the different writers.
misty
# misty 2012-06-13 21:02
I remember following
X-FILES' and LOST loyally to the end, and they both disappointed me, having intoduced plot points that you were led to believe meant something down the road, but then just went nowhere. I kind of feel in some ways that's going on with Supernatural. Sam was supposed to be part demon. So whatever happened with that? It's suddenly over? And does anybody else remember how Dean not only was able to kill The Whore,but also Zachariah and also watch his grace leave him without going blind like other humans. He also has been the only character to somehow have never been able to be possessed by a demon, although yes, he did turn into a vampire. And, does Sam still have psychic abilities? Does he ever jones for demon blood? These seemed like they were intended to mean something, yet we never hear about them anymore. So Dean's out of character turns this season feels to me along the same vein.Writers introducing ideas just because they seem interesting at the time, then never following through.
I for one feel like the Michael/ Lucifer story is not really over. What about Adam? Sam and Dean just forgot all about their brother? What if Team FreeWill didn't truly avert the Apocalypse, only delayed it? I mean Michael and Lucifer are Archangels, supposedly THE most powerful beings next to God, now that the Leviathins are no longer as powerful. It seems they could finally manage to get out of the cage if they tried hard enough.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-16 10:12
(Edited by Alice. You've done this crap here before Shelby. Keep your opinions toward the article. Any slams against your experiences with the site are irrelevant. Complain to the administrator if you don't like us).

I had to stop reading the article at this statement, though:

"We waited all season for him to finally get the kick in the pants he needed and slip out of his funk, but he never did."

Considering Jensen Ackles' performances of the last two seasons, I have simply lost all patience and respect for anyone who now and still believes that "a kick in the pants" is what Dean needs/needed to get up and running again. No doubt this article probabyl reflects the belief that he needed/benefite d/deserved all the boo hoo and suck it up speeches he got and that he wasn't there enough or didn't show enough concern for Poor Sam-in his 85th time of terrible need. And I'd bet the ranch that that last bit is re-hashed in the Sam in S7 article along with Sam not getting enough storyline focus on his worst hell ever.
You can delete this if you want, but I've never in all my posting life felt such anger as I felt in my on-line interactions concerning this show as I felt when I read the above sentence, and I truly think that anyone who agrees with that statement, at this point in the story, is not worth discussing or debating the character or the story with any longer.
And I would further say that I think this is a perfect microscosm of the reason for the great gulf and division that has been created in the fandom turning it into what now seems to me to be an irreparable separation of the entire fandom into it's respective "camps"-3-count ing Cas'-and is key to why more than a few prefer that the brothers hunt more separately-beca use the bond has lost it's true meaning to them because the writers, like some in the fandom, simply refuse to see the depth that Jensen Ackles' acting has brought to his "unexciting" depression storyline and acknowledge that it should be handled differently because of that; and because clearly the way it's been handled series-long so far has only added to and made Dean's ever-deepening depression worse-never assuaging it in any way.
If Dean has seemed to be not "as caring" as he used to be, in my mind, it's simply because he can't feel any more-because he's been emptied of the ability to be caring now and after all he's been through. And I cannot blame him one bit.
I hope the new showrunner re-watches all the episodes from the beginning and makes his writers do the same, so that they will be able to come to the table with fresher and clearer eyes than the previous showrunners have had since mid S5; and that they will further pay less heed than their predecessors did to the often skewed, one way or another, opinions and thoughts of on-line fansites.
My fingers are crossed for this, more than anything else, as regards S8.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-16 14:00
I think a lot of people on this forum love Dean. I certainly do, and I think Jensen acts very well. One thing I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say that the new showrunner should re-watch all the episodes from the beginning and so should the writers. That is the only way to get the characterisatio n right.
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-16 22:26
What a load of crap Shelby. Take your "bias" outrage elsewhere. Considering I'm not the one who wrote Dean in a funk, the writers did, and they're the ones that wrote those speeches to Dean, I have no flipping idea why you're ripping into me for just merely stating what actually happened. Just get over the fact you've never been a fan of my work and quit being such a bitch. This isn't the first time you've acted like this on this site. If you hate us and me so much, why the Hell are you back?

I don't believe "a kick in the pants" is what Dean needed. Perhaps if you read the rest of the article you would have seen that. I'm saying if the writers were going to do that to him, why didn't anything come of it? And instead of making snide comments and assumptions about the Sam article, why don't you fucking read it?

Also, lighten up. For God's sake, there are just too many people way to sensitive in this fandom. Going off on a rant for one freaking sentence is completely irrational to me. I welcome all opinions, I want to hear all sides, but I don't appreciate people coming here just to pick a fight. We behave a little better than that here. We are something called grownups.

I do however agree with you on one point. I do not want the writers to listen to fans. Any of us. This fandom is too polarized, too damn nuts in too many places. Everyone has these grand visions of the way they want their favorite characters to behave or act. All I'm hoping for really is the return of the brotherly bond.

If you decide to ever come back, next time post comments within our guidelines.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-16 23:30
Alice, I am new on your forum and selected this one because of a lack of bias. I find that your articles are very balanced and do not tilt towards Sam or Dean or Castiel. This is most balanced fan forum I have seen and I think the writers would do themselves no harm in reading this stuff! :-) Anyway May is already over and from what I hear the writing starts in May!
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-16 23:41
Whoa to the name-calling, Alice-not really surprised by it, though-but otherwise, I did decide to read the rest of this one and stand by everything I said, even the stuff you deleted, and the nonsense of Sam being right about being pissy with Dean in the car scene of The Slice Girls was just more of Sam projecting his own self-perceived faults and flaws onto Dean yet again-go back and listen to all the actual dialogues involved in all the episodes-Dean never said that Sam "choked"-that was how Sam perceived what Dean said to him because as usual, Sam wasn't really listening to what Dean actually said in The Mentalists because he was, as usual-too angry to truly listen to Dean. Dean said that he did the dirty work because he understood that Sam couldn't-becaus e that's what family does when there's too much personal attachment involved-which he tried to explain to Sam in the motel room in TGND, too.
And as for Elliott Ness and his speech-just another someone who the writers decided to add to the list of those who need to let Dean know that his feelings matter so very, very little-loved ones, baddies, and now random acquaintances, just to make it complete, have all said it to Dean. Damn the bastard for not bucking up yet again. Damn him to hell.
And don't worry, I certainly won't return and your OTT anger only makes me feel like I might have struck a nerve. And if so, good. I hope so-even if we never exchange words ever again in this lifetime, and even if you delete this post, too.
Sean
# Sean 2012-06-17 00:23
Quote:
I do not want the writers to listen to fans. Any of us. This fandom is too polarized, too damn nuts in too many places. Everyone has these grand visions of the way they want their favorite characters to behave or act.
Question: in that case, why is WFB following the Silent Majority twitter and letting them use your stuff for their campaign when they are spamming the producers with tweets trying to do exactly this?

Why aren't you following SaveCastiel on twitter since it is a much bigger campaign and therefore much more qualified to say it represents a majority of viewers?
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-17 00:33
They never asked our permission to use our stuff. We are not a vocal supporter of theirs. One of the certain rules of the Internet is once you publish something, anyone can share it. I'm not going after them though. If they agree with something we posted (before their campaign to boot) I'm not going to go nuts because some group likes it.

As for the Silent Majority, we respect all fan opinions. That includes theirs. They have never come on this site and shared any Castiel or other character hate. If any of their members did, we would not allow it. What they post elsewhere is their business.

I would love to follow Save Castiel! We are a pro-Castiel site, and always have been. Please share their twitter account and I'll follow ASAP.
Sean
# Sean 2012-06-17 01:03
Quote:

I would love to follow Save Castiel! We are a pro-Castiel site, and always have been. Please share their twitter account and I'll follow ASAP.
Their twitter is @SaveCastiel... :-)
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-17 01:22
Thanks! I just followed them.
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-17 00:46
Shelby, I do apologize for the name calling. I can delete that part of my comment if you want, or I can leave it there if anything to show the admin of this site gets fed up with crap sometimes. Thanks at least for reading the rest of it.

No, I won't delete your post. You actually are expressing a good opinion here in spots. Even if I don't agree you're making a point that adds perspective, for the most part. The car scene in "The Slice Girls" and the conversation in "The Mentalists" are scenes that have been open to many different interpretations . I'm really cool with you sharing your POV. Was it really necessary though to do so in an insulting manner?

I still don't think I'm condemning Dean. I love Dean. I just wish the writers went somewhere with his character this season. I say practically the same thing in the Sam article. Characterizatio n for both was awful. At least I hope you're saying "Damn him to Hell" because of me and not anything else said here. I haven't seen any anti-Dean comments here at all. Well maybe, one, but that was out of line.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-17 11:50
There's a lot of "Dean blame" and less compassionate understanding of the character than there is for Sam at this site, IMO, Alice-in both the articles and the comments, but I think that's how most here like it, so I'm prone to just stay away because of it and WILL try a little harder from now on.

Follow your own conscience as far a editing your own posts go. I get that people get angry and passions run high in this fandom-which is probably the main reason that my post seemed insulting to you. I was angry, too-angrier than I've ever been in my on-line posting life concerning this show; and I stated that and I still amm for that matter-I continue to stand by my entire post and especially on my feelings concerning those who still feel, at this point in the story, that Dean needs any kind of "a kick in the pants". I'd ask you to read that sentence from the perspective of a fan who loves and hurts for Dean and feels that the writers have disrespected the character immensely for years with those boo hoo and suck it up speeches coming at him from every corner-even from his loved ones-with little positive to ever offset them-and again, even from his loved ones. I think as a show of caring about and loving and understanding both characters, in at least a somewhat equal way, as is espoused on this as most feeling that they do-that it would have been nice of you'd actually said that you dislike them, too-I mean, if you do.

As I said, I read your article and I didn't get the feeling from it that they bother you that much at all, and yes, "Damn Dean to hell for not bucking up then and there" was what I took away from the article as your thinking after the Elliot Ness speech. It seems to me as if some here just want Dean back in his usual role of strictly and only fully supportive big brother and they don't care how the writers get him back there. Well, I do this time, and after the debacle of Fallen Idols. Furthermore, I'm not interested in the same supposed brother bond that we've gotten from these writers since that episode. I'd like to be shown something better this time around; a bond that uplifts Dean as much as it has seemingly uplifted Sam, again since that episode.

And I admit it, The Blame Dean game sets me off much more easily now and since that terribly written purported re-forging of the bond episode; and now we even have some Casfans playing it along with the no few in the Sam fandom who seemingly forever will.

For the record, I asked a friend whose judgment I trust implicitly if I should read the Sam article and she said no-that it wouldn't be good for my blood pressure. So instead, I'll just ask you to re-read both articles and ask yourself if you could possibly be placing too much blame on Dean and not being understanding enough(or even just AS understanding as you are when it comes to Sam) of all that Dean has been through since John died. We all want BadassDean back. I'm no longer as interested in seeing big brother protector Dean back, though, because since S5, it's been a predominantly thankless role for him, IMO. If the new showrunner would change that, then fine, but otherwise, I prefer it if they would focus more on the hunts than the brothers' relationship now.
Oh, and if you were alluding to me having a personal grudge against you and your site-no-your site, as it is, IS clearly not for me, but there's nothing personal in that feeling-at least from my side.
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-17 13:03
Fair enough Shelby, we're square. I do get your Dean outrage, I really do. I'm very outraged the way both Sam and Dean were handled this year. I'm not placing blame on Dean or Sam in anything. I'm placing blame on the writers for bad writing. That's what both articles were trying to convey. If I didn't succeed in your eyes, that's fine. I accept that. If your hot button issue is Dean blame, mine is hostile attitudes toward this site.

I don't know, to be honest I don't have a lot of time to count the Dean blame vs. the Sam blame on this site. I really think we've ended up slanting more Dean than Sam in recent times. I've seen it on both sides. I can't control the posters we attract, but I do love reading all sides of the argument. I adore the differing views in this fandom.

I really tried to limit the scope of this article to season seven. I did bring up some prior season examples, but that was meant to showcase how the brotherly bond has deteriorated. It was in the comments that season 4 and all that history was brought up. This article was not meant to be that sweeping. Sure, there's been plenty of character injustice in the past. I didn't address that here.

Heck, I'm not the authority. I just state opinions. I don't think I'm right compared to anyone else. I just don't get why some people keep coming back here in defense of their character in periodic spurts and express all sorts of outrage at this site and posters when the true issue is the writing is awful.

I agree with you in that I don't want Dean to be Sam's caretaker. I like them on equal footing. I'd love to see Dean again be a fighter, scrappy, badass, determined to save the world. This Dean being depressed crap pisses me off. I'm spending most of this article trying to figure out writer's intent more than my wishes for Dean and Sam. Like if they intended on Dean to snap out of his funk with those speeches, why didn't it happen? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting intent.

You are welcome back here with your opinions about Dean. I do think they're valid. Sorry again for losing my temper.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-17 14:12
Alice, I couldn't agree more with you about the writing this year. It was bloody awful for both Sam and Dean. Neither brother dud anything "wrong" this season - at least not to me.

For the record, I see nothing wrong with EITHER brother assuming the caretaker role if the other is in need. I guess I don't see the problem with that but that's just me.

My problem this season was with the awful writing. Hopefully, JC is sitting down and really thinking about where he wants to take the show and the characters.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 00:32
I hesitate to enter the fray with emotions running so high.

Even if I don't understand the whole Sam vs Dean thing, I understand passion for these characters (they do start to feel like family-don't they?) I just wonder if perhaps you are mistaking a character's POV for the writer's POV. Just because a CHARACTER express a view (ie Ness, Frank) doesn't mean that's the WRITER's view.

Keep in mind the is purely MY opinion. But I've seen a similar phenomenon when for Sam season 4 and 5. Several times it was insinuated that Sam was alone was responsible for the apocalypse, but the writers would be aware that we had actually watched the other episodes and would know that there were many involved including Dean and Cas. So IMO that is a CHARACTER view not necessarily a writers view. I just as I definitely don't think a writer thought Dean that was whining because he was tortured by what happened to him in HELL.

The same goes with Dean this season. We had several different hunter's POV, I don't think we are supposed to think these men are all-knowing beings. Frank was nut job. And Ness by his own admission had never been through what Dean has gone through. I saw them as food for thought for Dean. Another perspective, along with Garth's, through which Dean to view his life.

As far as Fallen Idols, CD28 expressed better than I, "It's hard to tell someone that your relationship is broken, and the broken relationship is having a negative effect on you, without it coming across as sounding blaming, but I think that's what Sam was trying to do. He made it clear he wasn't trying to shift blame. He was still taking responsibility for his actions. He was only trying to break old habits moving forward." That's EXACTLY how I saw when I watched the episode, but I could see how anyone who hasn't been in a similar relationship wouldn't get it.

Now I completely and totally disagree that Dean should stop being the protective older brother. (Especially since, although people have a tendency to ignore the fact, Sam is also a VERY protective younger brother) I see this as fundamental part of BOTH their personalities and think that the loss of Dean's protectiveness this season was a huge problem.

Now I don't want Dean's SOLE defining characteristic to be Sam's protector and conscious, but I've NEVER seen that as a problem. The closest was season 2, but even then there was a LARGE focus on Dean's struggle with all his father had laid on him, not JUST the Sam thing. First half of season 6 Dean was in "save Sam"mode, but since Sam was in Lucifer's cage I don't think that's an overreaction.

Dean and Sam love each other and they SHOULD be protective of one another -especially now since they are literally all they got. And they are the only who can truly understand what the other has gone through.
Gwen
# Gwen 2012-06-18 08:03
Quote:


Now I completely and totally disagree that Dean should stop being the protective older brother. (Especially since, although people have a tendency to ignore the fact, Sam is also a VERY protective younger brother) I see this as fundamental part of BOTH their personalities and think that the loss of Dean's protectiveness this season was a huge problem.

Now I don't want Dean's SOLE defining characteristic to be Sam's protector and conscious, but I've NEVER seen that as a problem. The closest was season 2, but even then there was a LARGE focus on Dean's struggle with all his father had laid on him, not JUST the Sam thing. First half of season 6 Dean was in "save Sam"mode, but since Sam was in Lucifer's cage I don't think that's an overreaction.

Dean and Sam love each other and they SHOULD be protective of one another -especially now since they are literally all they got. And they are the only who can truly understand what the other has gone through.
I agree here SO much. I love how protective these men are of each other (and yes, you are right, Sam is also very protective of his big brother).
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-17 01:00
Nita, I've been reading your comments for a while now but never had a good chance to say Hello. Hello! The perils of being the site administrator for here and TV For The Rest of Us is I don't get to spend much time answering comments. I guess today was my lucky (or maybe unlucky?) day! :-)

I do thank you so much for choosing our site. I try to have a mix of writers here that share a wide variety of opinions and viewpoints. It does give us balance. I'm very glad you feel the same way.

There are some posters that come back here on occasion and like to bash and cause trouble. They've never been fans of mine and are carrying some really stubborn grudges. Usually when I show a bit of a temper, it's because that person has a history with me and they've been warned about this sort of thing before.

The first script is already written. Prep on it starts next week. Shooting starts July 9th I think. It's the 3rd episode of the season and Jensen is directing. If the first two scripts aren't written they are very close to being done. I can't wait to hear what direction they're going in. For the record, Jeremy Carver used to read fan sites. I don't know if he still does, but I think he did it more for continuity research than ideas.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-17 01:16
Thanks for the reply Alice and I understand the difficulty in answering comments if you are a site admin.
I am really excited about season 8! I will have to watch it online because here in India they are showing season 7.
Lakisha
# Lakisha 2012-06-17 10:38
I found this very interesting. It would appear that everyone has to `post comments within our guidelines` with the exception of the site administrator! Very classy, calling someone a bitch and using pronfanities in your answer. And you ask everyone to feel free to add their opinions? I would not feel comfortable doing this now, as I think other people who have read with interest but not had the confidence to post here. There seems far too much bitterness, what a shame.
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-17 12:44
Everyone gets a warning. Tempers get heated in these things. If it's any consolation, the offensive comment on my part has been sent to our other administrator, Ardeospina, for review. It's up to her how she wants to handle the action, but standard procedure is first offense a warning. So I consider myself warned. Hell, maybe she'll ban me.

Plus, this is really an issue between me and the poster. Your comment isn't appropriate to the discussion, which is about Dean Winchester. If you have a particular complaint about the site, please hit the "report to the administrator" button. Others did! We deal with all reports, no matter who's posting.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-06-17 13:19
Admin warning!

Shelby and Alice:

Shelby, please keep your comments civil. Alice had to edit a post of yours, and it seems you have a history of uncivil remarks. This is unacceptable. You are free to voice your opinion but only if you can do so without attacking the author of an article or a commenter. If you can't follow these guidelines, we will be more aggressive in editing your posts from now on.

Alice, name-calling is unacceptable. Period. ALL commenters must follow our guidelines, and that includes you. Don't let this happen again, or I will be forced to edit your posts.

This issue has been discussed amongst the admins, and all complaints have been forwarded to the proper channels. I hope we can all put this behind us and move on.

Thank you.

Ardeospina
Silver
# Silver 2012-06-16 11:10
Alice, I think you have no idea who Dean Winchester is, or what he is about. I do feel that your bias towards Sam is very visible and obvious with every article you write.

I find it amusing that Dean needs a good kick in the ass, yet Sam, who has shown himself to be quite self-absorbed and self-indulgent is the one that needs to be even more woobified and loved and cherished and told how awesome he is. Despite that this is what Gamble has done for the past 3 seasons and Kripke has done since season 2.

Hopefully Carver will give Dean a chance to be more proactive than Gamble did, and thereby bring back the badass, awesome character that defines Supernatural. I also hope that she doesn't make the mistake of catering to the fans who only want to see the story of Sam, ignoring Dean and Cas, as Gamble did the past two seasons which marked them as the worst seasons of the series.

I would like to see some fairness for once, where Dean gets treated with the respect he deserves, where Sam finally sees Dean as an equal and doesn't consider him as a second class citizen and where Sam finally thinks of someone else besides himself.

These are things you would never write Ms Jester, so I thought I'd suggest them to you and maybe you can see another side of the story, instead of just yours.
Clare
# Clare 2012-06-16 15:01
Word to this comment. I'm really tired of Dean's entire existence being reduced to whether or not he's being a suitably attentive and worshipful big brother. Sam is a man pushing 30 and the tendency his fans have to infantilize him is ridiculous. I also can't help noticing that some of the people complaining he wasn't looking after Sammy like he should are the same people who accused Dean of selfishly ignoring poor Sammy's trauma in S4 by brooding on his own 40 years in Hell.
Kathryn
# Kathryn 2012-06-18 14:48
Quote:
…by brooding on his own 40 years in Hell.
Yeah, three times IIRC! How selfish of him. Of course Sam had it worse. ;-)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-16 17:40
I've been on anti-Castiel sites where the posters won't come here because they think this site is too pro-Castiel. We've had at least one article where people were complaining about an anti-Sam bias. If this site is ticking off ALL sides of the fandom, it's probably pretty balanced, all in all.
Clare
# Clare 2012-06-16 18:11
Quote:
I've been on anti-Castiel sites
Oh yeah, I bet you have.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-06-16 19:02
Admin warning!

Clare, keep it civil, please. I've warned you upthread already. Since that warning was after you posted these comments, you won't be penalized for that, but you need to tone your comments down and keep it civil or we will edit your posts.

Thank you.

Ardeospina
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-16 19:06
I apologize. I'll bow out now.
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-06-16 19:21
You don't have to bow out, unless you really want to. Just want to keep this nice and friendly is all!

Thanks for your cooperation.

Ardeospina
Alice
# Alice 2012-06-16 22:37
Silver, this sounds more like an excuse to stir up Sam vs. Dean, which is against our rules, than to give a sound argument. You are knocking down Sam for the sake of building up Dean. You are also trying to stir up trouble by attacking Sam fans. This is your only warning. That part of your comment will be edited next time.

Your comments about Carver bringing back the badass are right on though. I'd like to see that too.

Also, keep your personal attacks to yourself. You don't know what I write and it's patronizing of you to assume otherwise. Again, that will be edited next time as well.
Clarity
# Clarity 2012-06-16 18:31
I agree. I think there is really has no understanding of Dean going on in this article.

Dean gets up and he does his job and he really has taken care of Sam when Sam's needed it. Guess what you don't need to cease to exist and just sit and hold someone's hand to be taking care of them well enough when they needed it. Dean always made it clear that if Sam needed something, needed to talk, he'd listen, Sam didn't show any interest in doing so, so why in the world should Dean keep asking? Sam knows because Dean did ask when he did, after that it's up to Sam to take up the offer.

Dean functions and he does his job and he manages to look out for other people while doing so(because he DID do so as I said, it's utterly ridiculous to expect him treat Sam like a delicate flower and a child and to stop doing his job, Sam wouldn't do it, I remember all the excuses for Sam during Season 4 about how of course he had to put the job first, there was an Apocalypse to stop after all--funny how all that ended up doing was making the Apocalypse almost start faster). In fact the only "problem" with Dean externally that I can see is that he isn't so happy go lucky and good humored as he used to be, which considering his situation, I'd say isn't really that big of a problem compared to what he could be. Other than that Dean acts pretty much the same.

Apparently Dean's whole existence should revolve around Sam and Sam's problems, according to some poeple, even when there are much bigger problems at stake. It's funny how whenever Dean's got issues, ones he never gets the remotest amount of help or sympathy for because he's constantly expected to put everything and everyone else first all the time and has been his whole life, he's supposed to "get a kick in the pants"(not sympathy, not someone saying they know he's going through a lot no someone yelling at him and telling him he's a loser for not just "getting over it"), meanwhile Sam is supposed to mollycoddled and woobied and Dean's supposed to hold his hand but Dean is also supposed, while babying Sam and way more overprotective than he's ever been written in the show(people really need to stop confusing the show's canon with fanfic), he's also supposed to acknowledge Sam is the smartest, bestest thing ever and completely trust his judgment, despite the fact that Sam's judgment has been shown to be frequently quite wrong. Yet Sam still often refuses to trust Dean's judgement which is exactly what happened in the Amy story. All with the aforementioned good humor, the sort of thing NO other character on this show is expected to do, because I sure as heck don't see most of them smiling and being good humored about stuff. The best that can ever be said about the others is they aren't complaining, but they aren't actually expected to be smiling and good humored, which they rarely are.

The Amy situation to me was totally ridiculous, it should never even have made it as a storyline in the first place and IMO it made Sam look worse than it did Dean. It made Sam look gullible and lacking intelligence and like he hasn't learned anything over the past 4 years, like if Ruby were back today he'd make the same stupid decisions which led to him being tricked by her in the first place, pretty girl appeals to his ego and appeals to his "I need to validate my own self through proving that monstrous actions can be good".

Amy was a murderer, a serial killer in fact and any hunter who would actually fall for her "Oh but just right now my son is cured and I never have to do it again(until next time he gets "sick" I guess)" has got to be missing a large number of brain cells.

And talking about trust and judgment issues, Sam is the one who at the beginning of the Amy episode (also showing he's learned nothing since the show started) snuck out on his still injured brother(but that's fine if Sam leaves injured Dean, just not the other way around) to go investigate this "case", Sam didn't even return Dean's calls and didn't let Dean have any idea what he was doing.

So Dean had plenty of reason trust neither Sam nor his judgment. If Sam's judgment and reason were clear, he would not have snuck off in the middle of the night, he would not have left Dean in the dark about what he was doing and he wouldn't have ignored Dean's calls - all of this happened just an episode past Sam waving a gun around shooting at Dean because he couldn't tell the difference between an hallucination in his head and the real thing. Yet Dean is just supposed to trust Sam's just fine, just fine. Frankly IMO Dean's the only one acting either realistically or intelligently - because in real life no one would trust the judgment of someone who had not so long ago been waving around a gun shooting at them because of hallucinations.

At worst, all Dean did was finally do to Sam what Sam's been doing to Dean all these years, going behind his back and not telling him what he actually did. Gave Sam a taste of his own medicine. But at least Dean had the good grace to feel guilty about lying and he didn't try to force Sam to stay when Sam found out(showing more respect for Sam and Sam's feelings than Sam did for Dean's back in Metamorphosis for example) and he only finally put Sam in his place when Sam couldn't stop acting like a pissy teenager all about a MONSTER he knew for literally about half a day 15 years earlier whose overly convenient sob story about her sick but now suddenly cured child he decided to buy.

Personally I thought Sam's admission that Dean might be right(that was a new one, Sam almost never admits that, he usually continues to make excuses) and his other admission that he probably would have done something entirely different if he hadn't happened to have known said monster Amy is the most growth Sam's shown in years.

There wasn't anything hypocritical about Dean's actions because how often has Dean snuck out on Sam in the middle of the night and lied about where he was going? I think it's happened once in 7 seasons, and he admitted he was wrong to do so afterwards, and more than that how often has Dean gotten angry at Sam for killing a monster, an adult monster? Dean didn't even get upset at Sam later on in the season for killing his own "daughter" because he knew it was the right thing to do. In fact the funny thing about that is that Dean was OK with what Sam did, maybe regretful it had to happen, but by no means angry or upset with Sam and Sam was again the one acting all pissed off.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-16 23:19
Clarity, That was a good, thoughtful analysis but I think Sam does admit it when he is wrong. I remember him groveling for forgiveness when he killed Lilith. Even then neither Dean nor Bobby were ready to forgive and forget and I am not saying they should. Also a lot of times that Sam went behind Dean's back was something to do with his demon blood, that is what I assumed. Also I think he is terrified of Dean's reaction, his judgment. He wants Dean's approval very badly. However I agree that what he did when he went after Amy was wrong, there was no excuse for him to go behind Dean's back. Unless his being mentally disturbed was a factor in it? I wish the writers had brought this out, that it was a lack of judgment on Sam's part.
And I think all of us agree that Dean is a the stronger character? There is really no doubt about it in my own mind. He can take all his angst and bury it. That is mental strength.
Clarity
# Clarity 2012-06-17 07:43
But no one blamed Sam for killing Lilith. Dean never blamed him for killing Lilith. Right from the start, like within minutes of episode 5.1 Dean said Sam had no way of knowing and that they all thought Lilith was the one who needed to be killed up to that point. And Bobby also totally absolved him of blame. So Sam was doing his big apologies over the one thing that pretty much no one blamed him for, killing Lilith and breaking the last seal. In fact Dean showed he himself felt far more to blame for breaking the lfirst seal, as shown in the episode in the mental institution, than he ever did in blaming Sam for breaking the last.

Sam didn't grovel for forgiveness, imo, he said he was sorry, which is fine and understandable under the circumstances and most importantly he didn't grovel over the thing he really SHOULD have been, if he was going to grovel over anything, which was the long term betrayal of his brother. He barely acknowledged that at all and he surely never really apologized for it. A blanket "sorry for everything, I can't begin to say how sorry I am" really does not cut in that situation. He never acknowledged his own fault in it. Never once did he say "This is the reason I did this to YOU which has to do with ME and my own flaw/weakness(i nsert flaw/weakness here) and this is what I'm going to try to do in the future to change that". Which is funny because that's what Dean did when he apologized to Sam for making Sam betray him in Season 4 in Fallen Idols. LOL Dean managed to issue a better apology for something that he shouldn't have been blamed for in the first place, imo, than Sam did for a whole season worth of betrayal and lies. I have no idea how the writers thought that was a good idea unless they were actually trying to make people dislike Sam.

There is no reason for him to be "terrified" of Dean's reaction seeing as pretty much the only time Dean has BIG reactions is when finds out he's been LIED to BIG time. :) If Sam doesn't want a big reaction out of Dean? Yeah the best way to do that is to NOT lie to him and sneak around on him in the first place. Dean generally speaking, even if he doesn't like something that much, he'll just deal with it if he's told the situation right away. At worst Dean'll get a little mad, do whatever job has to be done at the moment and then try to move on to deal with the issue, when he's honestly disagreed with. From what we've seen, Dean rarely gets all that angry when he's told something straight up, he may try to convince them otherwise for a minute or two, he may disagree but he generally doesn't get all that angry. He deals with it.

It's when you lie to Dean, go behind his back and generally betray him that he gets really put out about it. :) I can't imagine why?
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-17 09:29
I'm probably going to regret weighing in on this, but Sam wasn't the the first one to lie in this relationship. Remember season 2, when Sam asked Dean if John said anything and Dean said no? How about season 4? When Sam was lying to Dean about being with Ruby hunting demons, Dean was lying to Sam about what he was doing, which was trying to summon the thing that pulled him from hell. Dean lied to Sam several times that season about not remembering hell. And that was important because if Dean was more impaired than he was letting on, that could have endangered both of them.
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 05:38
Not meaning to stir things up ,but actually, I think Sam lied first, or at least didn't share info, remember, when he didn't tell Dean that he had had the dreams about Jessica's death before she died? I think this was back in Bloody Mary. But who really cares, they have both lied to eachother. I love them both, and I get angry at them both.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-19 06:45
And if you want to keep going back then Dean (and John) lied to Sam for the first eight years of his life. Go back further again; Mary lied to John and Dean.

Sam and Dean were raised in a culture of lies so them lying is not new, or surprising. They had to lie to survive and they've also told some pretty big whoppers to themselves over the years.

In this instance, who lied first and what they lied about is much less important than why Sam and Dean felt they needed to lie to each other in the first place. The lies they both told were not the cause of their deteriorating/c o-dependent/une qual/whatever the hell they are calling it today relationship, merely a by-product of it. If the Sam Dean relationship was solid then there would have been no need to lie to each other.
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 20:01
Good points made Tim. I guess the reasons for the lying changed though as time went on. I feel John and Dean tried to protect Sam. Later though, I felt the both boys lied to eachother because they hid things they thought the other would judge them for, or things they were ashamed for the other to find out.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-17 10:01
Honestly, Clarity, it sounds like you just don't like Sam OR the writing for Sam. I doubt that's going to change.

I hated Sam's actions in Season 4 too. I wanted to see him apologize for the things he did, personally, to Dean too. After Fallen Idols, I realized the writers didn't think Sam needed to apologize for choking his brother and lying to him. Kripke & Co. clearly didn't think that was important. The Sam I feel I watched since Season 1 would have apologized. When I accepted that "Sam" can't say lines they don't write for him, I let it go.

You may not be able to do that though because as I said earlier it sounds like you just don't like Sam.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-17 11:54
Don't agree with you there Clarity. I believe that Sam apologized for lying to Dean, going behind his back and inadvertently killing Lilith. Even though his intentions were always good, he apologized several times. Even though Dean said it was okay, he refused to meet up with Sam when Sam wanted to get back together. Only by going into the future he realised he had made a mistake. So when he called up Sam it wasn't because he had forgiven him, but because he loved him. If he told Sam it was okay, obviously he was not telling the truth.
And as cd28 has pointed out, Dean has lied to Sam too.
I also feel that you don't like Sam much, but everyone is entitled to like or dislike characters. I guess a show like Supernatural makes all of us feel very strongly for the characters, one way or the other.
Anyway, what I care about is that Dean loves Sam. And l will continue watching Supernatural as long as their bond lasts!
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-17 12:07
And I want to add that the love or bond between the brothers is not just about Dean being protective. Sam also feels the same way about Dean. In season 7 their relationship was shown more equal except for the episodes where Sam was shown to be mentally disturbed.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-17 12:18
After Fallen Idols, I realized the writers didn't think Sam needed to apologize for choking his brother and lying to him. Kripke & Co. clearly didn't think that was important.

And I think that right there will forever be a problem to me because it speaks volumes on how the writers see the relationship. Namely that Sam is absolutely entitled to demand total equality but that it is fine if he never, ever regards Dean as his true equal. He just doesn't have to reciprocate.

That this is seemingly the status of the relationship they wanted to achieve and that the current status quo "oh well, they have totally moved on and are fine now" is supposed to be the non plus ultra sucks to me.

This is not an equal partnership, especially not one with such a close personal component as this one is supposed to have and not one I can get behind anymore.

So if the brothers felt more like long-time colleagues than family during Season 7, I'm actually glad for it. If he was all "Sam, Sam, Sam" as in the past in light of the above, I'd consider him a complete pathetic doormat. By acting more like his own person still with his own identity, he retains some of his dignity.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-17 14:03
Sasha, I actually think it had more to do with the writers not thinking the strangling was a big deal. It's just something that happened btw two guys, and now, they're over it. I don't think it was a statement about the Sam/Dean relationship or was ever meant to be that.

Many male posters also didn't think it was a big deal and didn't feel Sam needed to specifically apologize for that act. I'm a woman so I thought a specific apology was necessary but realize that a man may not think so.

I have no idea, but I certainly know Kripke thought the brother relationship was strong and fine.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-17 14:46
The strangling actually wasn't the biggest deal to me either, though I believe it should have warranted a specific apology. A blanket "I'm sorry" for the apocalypse never seemed to include to me an apology for any personal wrongdoings. And Fallen Idols strengthened my belief that Sam did not particularly feel at fault for that.

My main sticking point was the attitude of "stronger, smarter, better". That came out before Season 4, just not quite that strongly so actually when it got THAT bad during year 4, I felt heartened by it, sure they'd use that to adress it once and for all.

Only they never did. If I go by the narrative, Dean's response should have been "oh, you're totally right, I just have to accept my inferiority and be done with it". Instead of, like any normal human being, feeling insulted by it. That was the message Season 5 gave me.

Ironically, Season 4 didn't harden me against Sam's character, the handling of the redemption in Season 5 did. The big act of martyrdom of actually being the "one and only" was the complete wrong way to go to win back my sympathies. He got to atone for stuff I never blamed him for yet was completely validated for stuff that was and is my main problem with the character from the start.

But to bring it back to Dean, from his end, it's just not a partnership that works me on these terms. Just love without respect doesn't work for me. I would even prefer animosity with respect to it.

First and foremost I want the character to have some self-respect and it would nice to see the writers let him have some.

I have no idea, but I certainly know Kripke thought the brother relationship was strong and fine.

To be frank, seeing as he is a younger brother himself and creating a relationship where the older brother has to learn the wrongs about being so "bossy and mean" and accept how fantastically wonderful his younger brother is, no matter what he does (blood drinking included) while the younger brother has to...graciously accept it and change nothing about his own perspective? Colour me not impressed.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-17 17:09
I don't disagree w/you that the writers handled Sam's apologies wrong in Season 5. I think he should have also apologized for strangling Dean and for lying to Dean the previous year.

Fallen Idols was a horrible episode. They had, IMO, set up that Sam liked the power the DB gave him and the power he had over demons in Season 4, but had Sam telling Dean that Dean was too bossy and that's why he ran off w/Ruby. It made ZERO sense. Yes, Dean is bossy, but Sam will do what he wants when he really wants. We've seen Sam do his own thing before. The writing wasn't very good for whatever point they were trying to make. That episode just made it seem like Sam was blaming Dean for his whacked out choices. I didn't care for it. But like I said, I also realized that the writers clearly weren't thinking as I was and had different thoughts about the entire breakdown the previous year so I was not likely to EVER get what I wanted out of Sam and from the reconciliation so I let it go. It wasn't too hard for me b/c I like Sam and believe he does love and respect his brother.

I do understand how one could question if Sam respects Dean. After S&V, I wrote a post on Supernatural.tv questioning whether Sam had any respect for Dean at all. That episode left me floored and very upset. I wanted Dean to get in his car and leave Sam! Some said they heard comments from the writers and Kripke that the demon blood had an effect on Sam's feelings/though ts. If that was the case, then Sam would have been better served by them actually showing that or having Ruby say something to that effect.

I was finally able to move past it b/c at the end of the day though, I honestly believe Sam does respect and love his brother. I saw that for the 1st three seasons. You, Sasha, may disagree w/me there, but I think Sam does respect Dean. Did he have issues w/Dean always following John's orders? Sure. But I think a large reason for that was b/c Sam did think Dean was capable of making his own decisions. Sam didn't see any reason why Dean shouldn't veer off John's path and do what Dean wanted. I've never taken Sam's teasing or disbelief that Dean read certain literature as proof that Sam thinks Dean's a moron. I took it as innocent teasing btw brothers. I see Sam following Dean's lead for the most part and looking to Dean for guidance, etc. He wouldn't do that, IMO, if he didn't respect Dean or thought Dean was an idiot. That's JMO though.

I was discussing SS and Kripke's infamous comments (which I never read) elswhere, and I honestly didn’t see SS as making any statements about Dean accepting Sam drinking demon blood. I saw it as an opportunity for Sam to fix what he broke (i.e., setting Lucifer free). Sam had to consume demon blood so his body wouldn’t explode or fall apart like Nick’s. To me, that was just a plot point. The demon blood drinking occurred in one scene in the episode. I never focused on it that much. I liked how Sam didn’t want Dean watching him drink that crap, and I liked how Dean was disgusted by it. Even though I didn’t care for a lot of Season 5, I really loved SS and have watched it several times now. To me, it was a great episode.

If Kripke had some larger message to convey about Dean finally accepting Sam as a supernatural being or Dean being okay w/Sam drinking demon blood, then I think he missed the mark. I didn’t come away from SS w/that impression. I honestly don’t know anyone who did. The only people I’ve seen who believe what Kripke said are those who read the article/intervi ew he gave. And if you have to read an article/intervi ew to get the underlying meaning of a show/scene/stor yline, then the writing has majorly FAILED, IMO.

There’s nothing about SS that even hints at what Kripke said in that interview - at least not in my opinion. Dean didn’t delightfully slay a few demons for their blood or tell Sam how he now understood why it was so important for Sam to drink demon blood. Sam didn’t proudly gulp down the demon blood while the others patted him on the back! The act was performed in secrecy and practically under cover. It was not celebrated or rejoiced. It was a disgusting act and was treated as such, IMO. Whatever Kripke THOUGHT he was doing, he failed, if the idea was that Dean needed to accept his brother no matter what he does! That doesn't even make sense. Who accepts anyone unconditionally ?
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-17 17:44
Quote:

Fallen Idols was a horrible episode. They had, IMO, set up that Sam liked the power the DB gave him and the power he had over demons in Season 4, but had Sam telling Dean that Dean was too bossy and that's why he ran off w/Ruby. It made ZERO sense. Yes, Dean is bossy, but Sam will do what he wants when he really wants.
Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you here. I really liked the scene in Fallen Idols because it added a deeper insight into why Sam was doing what he was doing. I didn't see blame at all, but rather the realization that there was something broken in their relationship that needed to be fixed if they were ever to get past this pattern of behavior and move forward.

The reality is that family members do affect each other, and people do fall into family roles that are very hard to shake. I don't think Sam was reacting so much to the "bossiness" as he was the inequality of their relationship - even in the better times. John drilled into Dean that he needed to "protect" Sam, but that left Sam forever in the role of a child. He tried to break away from this role by running away, going off to college, rebelling against his father, and finally by feeling stronger by drinking demon blood.

It's hard to tell someone that your relationship is broken, and the broken relationship is having a negative effect on you, without it coming across as sounding blaming, but I think that's what Sam was trying to do. He made it clear he wasn't trying to shift blame. He was still taking responsibility for his actions. He was only trying to break old habits moving forward.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-18 13:17
I agree with your last two paragraphs, but I additionally think that since they've gone this in-depth w/ the relationship concerning what Dean has done wrong and needed to change, in all fariness to both brothers and their interactions within the relationship, the same should be done for what Sam has done wrong(and continues to do wrong, IMO) as regards it-and that means NOT just the running off and/or "abandoning" Dean-which is ALL they've tried to tell us that Sam did and has does wrong, IMO.
The last words of any kind of respect that Sam gave to Dean were in PONR and they were delivered in such a back-handed way, with Dean yet again being made to look "wrong" for yet again being to "over-protectiv e" of Sam and not trusting Sam's judgment enough-while yes, Sam just took it all in and never said that his actions had easily warrented that mistrust and just smiled magnanimously at big brother's learning of yet another "lesson" on all he's done wrong with and for Sam Pffffffffft. I hated the brother scenes in that episode.
I lost interest in the brother bond because I don't think the writers ever properly acknowledged the problemS! that it presented(and still presents) for DEAN; and how some of the things that Sam did(and again, still does), has often held Dean back from being hs own person-instead, I think the writers have just decided that yes, while Dean WAS a part of all that held Sam back, Sam in no way has ever kept Dean from being his own person-that apparently is all on Dean according to these writers; and things such as showing us a Sam who depserately needs Dean when he desperately needs him, but otherwise, they give us a Sam who finds Dean"over-protectiv e" and/or "too bossy" or "overly-control ling" whom Sam can very easily leave behind when it suits him has had nothing whatsoever to do with Dean's issues and what's always held him back-or a Sam whose small, but series-long, consistent knocks on Dean's intelligence have nothing whatsoever to do with Dean's low sense of self-worth and self-esteem-or Sam's lack of thought that Dean could use some actual positive words regarding his strength of will and his hunting acumen, instead of the negative spin Sam has predominantly voiced on that, for whatever his reasons/excuses , since Dean came back from hell.
Everyone here says they want to feel the bond between the brothers again, but for many(outside this site), that won't happen unless Carver addresses these things(that again, aren't mentioned here very often or are shot down as "needless" or OOC as something the brothers would "talk" about, when they are-which is untrue, IMO-if they did it once for Sam, they can and should do it one more time for Dean-although a part of me suspects that the Amy situation was a poor attempt at this). That's why I hope with all hope that the writing team will have re-watched the series before they plan out S8.
If they're going to further address the brother relationship, *I* would hope that after almost 3 seasons of Dean having had to learn the bulk of the lessons on it, that Sam might now get the bulk of that for this one season and since his issues are no longer so immediate or urgent. I'm no longer interested in their fixing what Dean has done wrong. It's been played out, IMO-and if that's all they want do some more, then I too, and as another poster further down said, would prefer if they would just leave it as it was in S7 because at least Dean was allowed to keep his dignity as regards the bond and relationship in S7, IMO; and I'm far more interested in seeing them return to Dean his dignity, self-respect and confidence in himself, as a hunter, anyway.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 14:13
How was Dean being overly protective in PoNR? He flat out told Sam that he thought Sam would say yes and so he needed to say yes to Michael so he could stop Lucifer. So that means he was going to let his body be used to destroy Sam's body. I don't see that as being protective. And even though he had just told Sam he had no faith in him. Sam showed the complete faith in Dean.

And Sam did not ABANDON Dean when he went to Stanford-he left for college. But he STILL apologize he was wrong in PoNR. But he also DID apologize for his mistakes in season 4 and kept trying to apologize more but Dean became angry and cut him off. Sam said he was punishing himself. He was definitely punished in the cage. But most of his crimes weren't directly AGAINST Dean, they were self-protection lies like a child tells because he doesn't want to get in trouble. But he stopped lying completely in season 5 and the only time he really has lied since was when he was Soulless and about his hallucinations/ mental health. What other things has he done to Dean and how does he make up for it?

How has he kept Dean from being his own person? Yeah he has some self esteem issues, but how is SAM to blame for those?. Other than those few times I mentioned before, when has he EVER said anything bad the about Dean? Now their dad was hard on them both and Dean took everything his dad said to heart. Some of those things were about Sam, but that is not Sam's fault. If anything Sam defended Dean, such in Something Wicked and Dark Side of the Moon.

Dean WAS too bossy, controlling and overprotective (though I like the overprotective sometimes). I think it came from basically raising Sam. He got in a habit. Through most of the seasons he would say they were doing something and they would do it. Sam would have to convince Dean to do something. But he's been better, since Fallen Idols, when Sam made that speech that apparently a large portion on the fandom mistook for blame-(it wasn't and Sam said it wasn't). Sam actions were not so different from a someone rebeling against controlling parents. Whatever dumbass thing the person does is still their own fault, BUT they have to stop the pattern in order to not make the same mistakes again.
I think Dean not fighting Sam jumping was his way of showing support.

I'm am all for Dean not being so hard on himself and dealing with the guilt and letting it go, but again I don't think those issues are Sam's fault.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 15:09
when Sam made that speech that apparently a large portion on the fandom mistook for blame-(it wasn't and Sam said it wasn't

I can start a sentence with "I don't blame you but if you hadn't done X, I wouldn't have been driven to do Y". And it is totally blaming the other person. What I truly mean to say after the "but" is "it's your fault".

Likewise, any speech that carries the message of "our relationship NEVER worked in the past because of all these things YOU did wrong...now change them already" is not going to go over too well with me.

Okay, fine, anything that was wrong on Sam's end then? Anything HE feels like correcting? Just Dean then? Fantastic. This entire message in Season 5 that Dean and only Dean was at fault for everything that went wrong in their relatinship disgusted me.

And I never saw him being that bossy and controlling, other than 5.05 where they made a point of it to knock him down for it and give Sam the entire argument.

Hilariously, throughout Season 4, Sam got increasingly on a "he is so weak and pathetic, I need to be the one to do it because I'm strong" kick, he did what he wanted, he went with Ruby.

And after one episode, Dean didn't put up any struggles whatsoever. He tried to make nice with Ruby even, he defended the use of the powers, he didn't actively try to stop Sam even once until Sam became an outright junkee. He once tiredly asked Sam not at least not to lie to his face - only to be lied to his face.

Throughout nearly all of Season 4 Sam did what he wanted ultimately. The only thing Dean didn't do is go all Ruby and be "wonderful, you're the man, you're awesome, yes, Sir". And THAT made him so "controlling and bossy" that Ruby became an alternative? Looked back nostalgically on even in Season 5? Noone ever played Sam for a bigger fool than she did, she only did it in an ego-preserving way.

Now Dean is not the type for that but quite frankly he shouldn't have to be. He had a right to have his own opinion on demon blood drinking. He had a right to have his own opinion on handlin Lilith. He had right to voice those opinions. He had a right to follows his own instincts.

At least as an equal partner he should have those rights.

In the past they tried to tell us that his behaviour towards John was unhealthy. In that case, molding him into someone who should act the way with Sam as he did with John isn't okay either.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 17:29
That was your take on the Fallen Idols speech not mine. Sam took responsibility for Lucifer all season 5 over and over. He never once tried to shift blame even to Ruby or Castiel or the other angels or Dean ALL of whom had a hand in the final seal breaking. (I can list them if necessary).
Even in that argument, he NEVER said that the apocalypse was in any way Dean's fault. He said the PARTNERSHIP was not going to work if they continue the way they had in the past. Because he needed to have a say in how things were handled, so he didn't end up falling into the pattern of behavior that had led to those mistakes. I know there is probably no way anyone who hasn't been in a similar relationship would understand that. But it is not the same thing.

Taking the responsibility to change the relationship is a good thing for both Sam and Dean. If he'd just said "I'm a screw up so you make the decisions." (which a lot of addicts do basically giving up all rights but also all responsibilitie s) he would be giving Dean not only all the power but all the weight of the consequences of those decisions. So if anything went wrong it would be all on Dean. By saying he has to shoulder some of the weight of decision making he actually shouldering the weight of the outcome of those decisions.

Sam also NEVER said that Dean was the only one at fault in creating those patterns. He just said they couldn't continue.
Season 4 Sam made a LOT of idiotic decisions no question and I do think he thought Dean was a little broken from hell(and Sam was probably right). And OF COURSE Ruby played in for a fool, she was his drug dealer. Your drug dealer is of course going to tell whatever they need to so you'll keep coming back. He wasn't fighting for he decisions with Dean in season 4. Instead he took the immature, addict route and hid what he was doing from Dean (probably because deep down he knew DB was wrong). In season 5, he stood up and argued his view instead going behind Dean's back. He grew up.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 15:31
But why do you assume Dean has taken Sam's teasing comments to heart? You say Sam has been knocking Dean's intelligence since the show started, and that Dean needs to say something about it I would be okay w/that if Dean had ever expressed distress, etc. over those comments in the 7 years the show has been on the air, but he hasn't.

You may not like it but Sam has mentioned his frustration w/Dean following John's orders, and he has spoken about wanting Dean to treat him like an equal partner. I'm not even saying I agree w/Sam; I'm just saying those issues have been raised in the show. It would make no sense for Dean to suddenly tell Sam that his self-esteem in the crapper b/c Sam acted shocked when Dean said he read The Iliad or something. Similarly, it would make no sense for Sam to suddenly tell Dean his self-esteem sucks b/c Dean playfully calls him "geek boy" or whatever.

The brothers tease each other. It's not meant to be taken as serious jabs to the other. The only people who feel Dean has been damaged by Sam's comments are some Dean fans. Dean doesn't appear to be affected.

Dean's low self-esteem can be blamed on one thing and one thing only: John's crappy parenting. I like John, but he was sucky father. If anyone had an impact on Dean's self-esteem, it was John.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-18 21:37
Dean's low self- esteem started with John's parenting, IMO. Booby and Sam have simply followed John's example in what they feel it takes to just keep Dean uand running for them. After this season, I don't see how it can ever be argued that that way and/or tactic has ever truly helped Dean. He was shown to be apathetic to the point of being suicidal this season and nothing they threw at him could shake him out of it this time-maybe Dean's Purgatory experience will-as Sam's cage experience supposedly did for Sam.
And the nature of the Dean's problem precludes him from calling Sam out on it because having been raised that way from childhood he himself is unaware of the fact that there even IS a problem; so just becuase Dean can't see it, doesn;t mean that it isn't there-and for that reason, yes, I'd hardly expect that it could be handled in the exact sma way that Sam's issues were handled. More than likely, a third party would be necessary to point this out, but I hardly expect it to happen in any case, because I honestly don't think these wrtiers realize or see the extent of the depth that has been created in their characters-and much of this coming predominantly through their actors' additional contributions to the written characterizatio ns of them. So again, I would beg Mr. Carver and co. to Please. Re-watch. Every. Single. Episode. before they write even one scene for S8.
And I felt that from early in the series that Dean referring to Sam as freak was also only "brotherly teasing"-especi ally when we see Dean calling himself a "freak" in Skin. So why couldn't/wouldn 't it be shown that Sam's apparently only "brotherly teasing" of Dean's lack of a college/"booksm art" education might have deeper implications for Dean and the reasons behind his lack of self-esteem and low sense of self-worth also. That would seem very realistic in any human relationship type of way to me.

But again, I doubt that even the new regime will see that deeply into the characters, so I'm just really(and trying to keep my expectations realistic here) hoping for no more(not even one!) boo-hoo or suck it up speeches for Dean and a return of his full hunter mojo in S8. I can't forsee them writing Sam too much differently because frankly, I think they like and want to keep Sam as he is and has been since mid S5.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-06-18 09:23
What happened in SS wasn't about Dean accepting Sam drinking demon blood or , it was about accepting him as an equal, not just his "snot-nosed little brother" that he's had to "keep on the straight and narrow" . Like Dean said in their conversation at the beginning of SS, even though it went against his every fibre, he had to accept that taking on Lucifer was Sam's decision. That even though his instsinct was to protect his little brother, he also had to let said little brother make his own decisions. I think that was the message Kripke was trying to convey more than anything else.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 10:22
I agree with you on this (and cd28-I even quoted cd28 in another post because I thought you said this so well) I'm not sure Dean HAS excepted the supernatural part of Sam. He excepted that Sam had to drink the DB but looked like he hated it. IMO Sam knew this and it was part of the reason he asked Dean not to watch. He was ashamed.
misty
# misty 2012-06-17 21:36
Well, the problem with that, for me, is that IMO they never really HAVE given Dean his own purpose besides taking care of Sam. Now before anybody thinks I'm bashing Sam, I'm not; I love Sam. Just calling it as I see it; Sam was shown as super smart, going to be a lawyer and marry Jessica, have his own identity apart from his family and hunting. IMO Dean was never given any identity other than hunting and looking after Sam. Even when he was with Lisa, it was only because he had promised Sam. He couldn't really enjoy that life because all the time he thought Sam was dead and in Hell.
What I'd really like to see is Dean really fall in love. Just once. We got to see Sam fall passionately in love with Madison. Now, ok, yes, he DID have to kill her so yes, that was worse of course than anything Dean has had to deal with regarding women and I admit that. But we've NEVER even seen Dean fall passionately in love yet. I don't count Lisa, and I don't count Cassie either because we never saw the falling in love process. We were told long after the fact, and that's just not the same. And yes, I guess to make it fair, the woman Dean fell in love with would probably have to die also. But just once I would love to see that side of Dean.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-17 22:09
I was just watching "Heart" today, and I can't say Sam fell passionately in love w/her. He barely knew her. I think he liked her a lot, and he clearly liked her more than Sara or that other Season 1 chick b/c he slept w/her. He cared for her a lot but love is, IMO, stretching it.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 05:49
Well, I don't know, that's what I always read in regards to Madison. Look, I don't begrudge Sam falling in love. Like I have said over and over, I happen to love Sam. I just would like to see Dean fall in love like that as well, just one time.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-18 11:45
Madison was a kindred spirit for Sam and no doubt the connection .She was something that might of been but never could be for herself or for Sam.
And then fate stuck a big knife into both of them and it was all gone as quickly as it began .
Sam did have feelings for her wether it was love in the same way he felt for Jessica? I doubt but the begins were there just never really got a chance.

Dean has falling love with Lisa and fulfilled a some what normal life wether he is open to a connection with someone now? is hard to tell.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 15:37
Don't forget Cassie. He loved her too.

I must say the Winchester boys fall in love quickly. Dean knew Cassie for 2 weeks or so but Sam takes the cake w/Madision. He "fell in love" after 24 hours! LOL :-)
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 16:50
Well, Dean may have eventually fallen in love with Lisa, but we didn't see it. We saw their relationship after they had already been together for a year. And Cassie too, we never got to see her and Dean fall in love, it was shown long after the fact. What I want to see is him meeting a woman, hitting it off, and see the falling in love process, you know, the romance, the passion. It's a side of Dean we have never seen in my opinion and I would like to. Maybe because I find him(and Sam) so attractive. We did see that with Sam and Madison, at least to me.
And it's got to be someone he really has chemistry with. He had chemistry in spades I thought with Alona Tol i.e. Jo. Ok, maybe she still had to die, but I always hated that she clearly loved him but they made it appear that he looked at her like a little sister. Why the hell couldn't they have had him return the feelings and consummated that relationship before she died? It would've been hot!
And then there was Bela. I think they could have had a love/hate relationship, and I thought she and Dean also had a strong sexual tension, when they weren't trying to kill eachother! If not love, they should have at least had a moment where they released all that tension against a wall or an elevator or something. And she and Jensen also had similar hair and eye color, and a similar snarky, sparring personality. I think he had the most chemistry with these actresses, and the writers wasted it.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 23:25
I always thought Sam had better chemistry with Jo than Dean, maybe because Dean did treat like a little sister. But I wouldn't have minded her with Dean either.

I didn't mind Bela that much (my sister totally HATES her- something about her voice or accent. She hates Alastair for the same reason) and though many people cringe at the idea, I will admit to being mildly disappointed that we did get to see the angry sex. Dean. I don't see them having a love connection though.

Out of the female characters we've seen. I been racking my brain about who I liked him best with then it hit me. CHARLIE. HA! I Know she's into to girls, but someone like her (or if you were ever going to switch teams it would be for a Winchester IMO). A smart, joyous person who obviously can give as good as she gets and obviously has a little freak in them. He enjoys giving the nerds a hard time and she could match him movie ref for movie ref. Perfect match. HA! Writers Make It So.
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 05:54
I still think Jo had the better chemistry with Dean, but it's fine to respectfully disagree, see people, adults can do that LOL! As fpr Bela, no, I don't think it would have been a love connection, but a SEX connection! LOL
Gotta stop and go to work now, we can get too caught up in this can't we?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 10:02
I thought he had chemistry with Jo (or rather the actors had chemistry)but I did see as being more sisterly than sexual . More like what he has with Cas (Sam is kind of another level still brotherly though)- although some people see that as sexual chemistry so clearly it's subjective. LOL.

I think the balance of power was off for me. Jo seem like such a babe in the woods compared to Dean, at least in season 2. I did like them together in Abandon All Hope, probably because she had come into her own more by then. But then of course she died-so that came to not.
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 20:18
Well, that was a Dean douchebag moment for me because he knew full well Jo loved him and didn't do anything about it but then when he thinks they're all gonna die, he suddenly checks out her ass, gets turned on, and tries to nail her? Really Dean? As much as I love Dean, and ok yes, I will admit he's my favorite, it's pretty much canon that he's a bit of a dog when it comes to women and sex, but I certainly thought he respected Jo enough that he would never pull those sleazbag tactics on her. Sadly, I was wrong. And even though Jo probably would've love it, because she loved HIM, she showed herself more respect and shot him down, and GOOD FOR HER! Although, I admit it would have been A LOT HARDER FOR ME to say no to Dean LOL
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 20:50
I love them both, maybe a little bit more attracted to Sam. But I would have yes to either. Maybe both. C'mon it is the ended of the world. LOL. And DAMN they are the Winchester-thos e are some good genes, a girl only has so much will power.
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 21:56
Seriously, I would've taken Dean, Sam, Cas, AND yeah, their Dad too! John was hot!LOL No matter who you end up with, you just can't lose here!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 10:03
I think Dean's really always had his own storyline.
Season 1 - Both save Dad. Dean had keep his family together. I even read several reviews that wondered if Dean was the really lead, since we got more inside his head than Sam's.
Season 2- Was dealing with his dad telling him he might have to kill Sam and the fact that his father had not only died but died for him.
Season 3 - Entire season was about Dean's deal.
Season 4 - Dealing with returning from hell and torturing and eventually finding out he broke the first seal. Also he was told he had been saved in order for some great purpose by the angels. He was part of God's plan, according to them.
Season 5 - He was to be Michael's vessel. We had several episodes focused on getting him to say yes.
Season 6 - Lisa and Ben and failing to live be able a normal life and putting them in danger.
Season 7 - I might give you this one, except that I THINK all that depression and apathy is leading up to something in big season 8. Hopefully. And other than first 3 episodes, I didn't really see him taking of Sam this season.

I not trying to start a thing. I've just read this no storyline thing before and I don't really get it. The only thing I can see is that he didn't have a supernatural storyline in some of the seasons, but that's not even true of 3-5.

I'm going to have to agree with lala2 on Heart. I think Sam really cared about her, but I don't think he loved her. I would believe Dean loved Lisa much more easily over that.
I think in Heart the reason Sam was SO upset had more to do with the fact that there was nothing they could do to save her. He was dealing with his own possible impending darkside and was wondering if he could be saved.

I would like both guys to be able to fall in love and have some happiness. But I don't see that happening. It's the same problem the show has always had. In order for the audience to buy into it, it has to be a recurring character who Sam or Dean and the audience can grow to love. But since the show moves from week to week building a relationship is problematic. Plus I don't seeing either character risking it without a BIG changing in their protective attitudes. Another hunter is perhaps the only way I could see to overcome both problems. Although you'd still have the problem of some of the fangirls. LOL.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 11:48
I don't count "emo" on the side as a storyline - well, in soap operas okay but not in genre - so I would say he had none during Seasons 1 and 2. And he was most notably not included in the mytharc in those.

In Season 3 in theory he had a supernatural storyline but only got passive emo reactions to it. Which at the time I could deal with because I was so glad they followed through and allowed him to be sent to hell.

Then in Seasons 4 and 5 he supposedly had an actual plotline and even a stake in the arc but that was completely nullified by 5.22 and shown to be a red herring so I can't in good conscience count it anymore. A bad ending that made him utterly superflouus to the entire 5 year story? They could have just as well erased Seasons 4 and 5 for the character.

Season 6? Another vague emo on the side. He had nothing whatsoever to do with the real plot.

I already said what I think the "purpose" of the depression during Season 7 was. Nothing.

Purgatory to me is the only real chance, if they do something with it, for the character to have an actual plotline again. With a real solution this time where he isn't thrown out of the story for tertiary character number 8.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-18 12:24
I agree that Dean's emo arc of season 7 wasn't a story.

If we're nullifying Dean's season 4 and season 5 story because he never became Michael's vessel, then we need to nullify Sam's season 1 and season 2 story because Sam never became Azazel's leader of the demons.

I disagree that season 3 wasn't a good story for Dean. The Hell contract was damn scary, and we got some great character development out of it.

I agree that both Sam and Dean were passive observers in the main storyarcs for seasons 6 and 7 (the soulless Sam arc didn't amount to anything either).

I wouldn't say Sam had much of a story in season 5 since the idea that Sam might say yes to Lucifer was only thrown in as an afterthought in the final few episodes, and we really got little emotional POV from Sam about it.

So we have Dean having one strong season (3) and Sam having one strong season (4). Can we call it even?

To be honest, I think this idea that the story needs to be about the main character is a little unrealistic. Most stories are not structured so that the hero of the story is also the source of conflict. So I have this question for you - do you want Dean to be the monster that everyone hunts, because that seems to be what "having a story" on SPN usually means?
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 12:50
The story of being Azazel's demon leader evolved (or was retconned) into being finally Lucifer's vessel. So to me it still stands. It was about Sam's destiny and he got to be the big final sole hero in it. Yes, to me the ending is the most important part.

And the soulless Sam plot wasn't part of the main arc but got lots of coverage in the Season. So my breakdown plotwise comes down to 6:1. Which ain't exactly even.

The story of Sam's destiny WAS however structured with him at the very center of it. He was important and the respective bad guy after him. Everyone else was exchangeable and expendable, orbiting around him in terms of however much worth was distributed to them in relation to Sam.

So if Dean got that? Being the one at the center of the mystery, the one who is tantamount to the plot and the only one who can do XY whereas the other characters only orbit around him? That would be having a story to me. And by all means give the emo, POV or whatever to everyone else. I'm really, really, really not interested in that anymore for the character.

Have HIS story told through another's eyes? That would be fine for me. Just not longer him being the narrator of another story.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-18 13:07
Quote:
The story of being Azazel's demon leader evolved (or was retconned) into being finally Lucifer's vessel. So to me it still stands. It was about Sam's destiny and he got to be the big final sole hero in it. Yes, to me the ending is the most important part.
But even if you combine the Azazel and the Lucifer storylines, then it still boils down to Sam's journey to the dark side.

But he never did go darkside. Even when he was drinking demon blood and saying yes to Lucifer, he was doing only it to stop the Lilith/the Apocalypse. If the ending is the most important part, the ending is that Sam was still the good person he was when the story started. So again, if we're nullifying Dean's season 4 and 5 story because he didn't end up as Michael's vessel, then we need to nullify Sam's story too because he never turned evil.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 13:19
A darkside story doesn't necessarily end with the hero in question actually turning into the villain IMO. In fact, I consider that pretty rare.

The hero is tempted, may have a dark destiny but in the end triumphs over it. That is what happened here and it was a story with beginning, middle (which got extended) and triumphant ending.

Dean had a late beginning, a middle and exit stage left.

For me it would have been comparable had Lucifer said in the end "you know what, Sam, don't mind me, I found Joe the milkman in Ontario and he works for me just as well, so sorry for the bother." And then it wouldn't have mattered a hill of beans if Sam ever had a destiny, what he did about it, what he felt about it, if he said yes or no.

Just like in my eyes it didn't matter if Dean said yes or no or was brought back from hell or anything. There was Adam and he worked in a pinch.

But this is probably an agree to disagree point because even now 5.22 is still a hot topic for me. I have seldom loathed a TV episode like I did this one.
Jina
# Jina 2012-06-18 21:18
Quote:
A darkside story doesn't necessarily end with the hero in question actually turning into the villain IMO. In fact, I consider that pretty rare. The hero is tempted, may have a dark destiny but in the end triumphs over it. That is what happened here and it was a story with beginning, middle (which got extended) and triumphant ending. Dean had a late beginning, a middle and exit stage left. For me it would have been comparable had Lucifer said in the end "you know what, Sam, don't mind me, I found Joe the milkman in Ontario and he works for me just as well, so sorry for the bother." And then it wouldn't have mattered a hill of beans if Sam ever had a destiny, what he did about it, what he felt about it, if he said yes or no. Just like in my eyes it didn't matter if Dean said yes or no or was brought back from hell or anything. There was Adam and he worked in a pinch. But this is probably an agree to disagree point because even now 5.22 is still a hot topic for me. I have seldom loathed a TV episode like I did this one.
Exactly. Kripke said in numerous interviews that his 5 year mytharc was Sam's hero's journey. Heroes are not supposed to be shiny, perfect characters- they're people who rise about their mistakes and flaws to do the right thing. And if you look at the one thorough through mytharc storyline in the show's run, it's Sam's story. From Jessica's death, Sam's visions, realizing he's a psykid, Ruby's appearance, the blood addiction, letting Luci out, becoming a vessel and putting Luci back in, coming back soulless from the Cage, suffering hell hallucinations as a form of PTSD - from a storytelling standpoint, it's all part of one, large, cohesive arc.

In contrast, as you pointed out, Sasha, Dean's mytharc connection was shoehorned in, explored for awhile, and then "exit stage left" . Dean's own thorough through storyline hasn't been about moving the plot or being directly important to the main storyline- it's revolved predominantly around taking care of Sam: protect Sam in S1, kill or save Sam, worry about Sam's blood addiction/power s/Ruby's influence, stop being a bossy big brother, get Sam's soul back and worry about Sam's wall, worry about and fix Sam's hallucinations (although, unlike past seasons, Sam's problems didn't dominate Dean's storyline- or whatever we call Dean being depressed.) Kripke admitted that he only moved Dean into the mytharc and out of a sidekick role in S4 because Dean became so popular. I don't see Dean as a sidekick anymore but I also don't see the same commitment to tell a good story for Dean as there is for Sam. The hallucinations might not have been as well developed as it could have been but at least it had a beginning and a resolution. I still don't know what was the point of the 5 episode Lisa arc or Dean's moping this season.

Which is why I really hope for a change next season. If Dean really has moved beyond simply functioning as an extension of Sam's story and is an equal lead character, there's no reason why this Purgatory storyline shouldn't focus on him in that capacity. And it'd be great for Sam to be showcased as the devoted younger brother, singleminded in his determination to help Dean. That's a role reversal that I'd love to see.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 22:58
Huh, I don't remember Kripke saying that Dean was the sidekick. The only thing I remember him saying was that Dean was going to be Han Solo to Sam's Luke Skywalker. And it maybe just me but I never saw Han as a sidekick.

And Sam has been the devoted younger brother. Even in season 4, when Sam was at his worse he had Dean's back for the most part. And after a few glaring exceptions in season 4, he was right back to being devoted in season 5.
Jina
# Jina 2012-06-19 01:30
I loved Han Solo but he was definitely a sidekick. There were even plans to kill him off after "Empire." That means a character is expendable- Lucas couldn't exactly kill off Luke and still have the movie play out as it did.

I see your point about Sam and I really do believe Sam loves Dean. But for 7 years, the show's saddled Sam with these huge problems that he's had to constantly deal with. Even this season, Jared said Sam couldn't worry too much about Dean because he had so much on his own plate.

Dean, otoh, has spent a good chunk of the series focused on taking care of Sam and his problems. Like how, in S4, Dean's PTSD took a backseat to Sam's ongoing blood addiction. I'm not blaming Sam or anything- it's just that Sam's storyline drove the plot and Dean tagged along. I'd like to see that changed up next season, with Sam should have the chance to focus on Dean without being sidetracked by Lucifer or being the Chosen One or demon blood. That way, we can see Dean being Sam's #1 priority in the same way Sam has been shown to be Dean's #1 priority. Hope that makes sense.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 02:18
Yeah I respectfully but completely disagree on every point, well except for Sam loving Dean.

Neither Sam nor Dean (nor Han Solo IMO) are expendable. Lose every other characters (and we have) and the shows still SPN, despite feeling the loss. Lose Sam or Dean and there is no show. The show is about the two of them. Take either one away and it might as well be cancelled. I might debate whether Bobby or Cas should come back and if the show is better w/ or w/o them. But I would not even bother to debate if one of the boys were gone. I would stop watching new episodes and comfort myself with reruns. And I'm almost positive I'm not in the minority with fans or critics.

Jared made his comment about THIS season because Sam was losing his mind, not every season. And Dean was definitely NOT taking care of Sam this season after episode 3. In fact, I think that Sam actually rescued Dean more this season than vice versa.

Dean has always cared about Sam and looked out for him, but it not like it completely consume him. In fact, season 2 Dean was consumed with his Dad dying and his final words and Sam was trying to help him out even though is was his Dad too. Now once Sam learned about everything he had a freak out for a couple episodes. But it's not he was bed ridden and Dean was having to stay home to comfort him.

Season 3 was all about Dean.
Season 4 Was split pretty evenly IMO I didn't see his story taking a back seat at all. It was dealt with in 1, 4, 5, 6,7, 8, 10,14,15,16,17, 21 and 22 in some capacity. A few were practically full episode.
Season 5- They were both barely hanging on. Dean didn't do a lot taking care of Sam, except for MBV. Now I will agree that Sam's mistake and the Apocalypse hung over the entire season.
Season 6 - I give you, because he was trying to save Sam while keeping SS in check the first half of the season.
7 again 1 episode after episode 3, where he even dealt with Sam's problems AT ALL.

And Sam has looked after Dean on many occasions throughout the show, but I would be perfectly to see that continue.
lianne
# lianne 2012-06-19 15:04
Quote:
Season 3 was all about Dean.
I disagree with this. Season 3 was also about Sam's new powers, with the introduction of Ruby and Lilith, both key players in Sam's powers storyline.

In fact it wasn't until Season 4 that Dean going to hell was a significant storyline for DEAN. In Season 3, it was more of a storyline for Sam - trying to find a way to prevent Dean going to hell, and as the impetus for Sam discovering his new powers, which leads right into Sam's storyline in Season 4.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-19 02:42
Han Solo stopped being a side kick by the time Empire happened
That was Eric's idea Luke SkyWalker and Han Solo but that is not the concept we got.In fact with Sam I think we got Darth Vader not anywhere near Luke.

Eric said 'In many ways Dean was the true hero of Supernatural' and that is the way I believe the writing has gone .Sam needed a story that reminded people there was a person there and not a plot line then maybe there would of been less chance of the twisting of Sam as a character and his relationship to Dean by some looking to pull the character down and victimize Dean at the hands of his 'evil' little brother.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-19 03:00
If Eric said that Sam was Luke Skywalker, then certainly the story has not followed this path.
I am an SF fan, and started seeing SPN in its 4 and 5th seasons. At that time (I am a fan of Star Wars and have been for years) I too thought that Sam was turning into Darth Vader. I did not know any background of the series, nor had I read any interviews and I had not seen seasons 1-3. Thankfully Sam did not turn into Darth Vader but the comparison stuck in my mind and when I told my daughter she was surprised (she has been seeing SPN from the start). After seeing seasons 1-2 I realised that Sam was certainly not Darth Vader but he had certainly seemed on the verge of turning into him if one went by Dean's POV.
But in any case I had a soft spot for Darth Vader, before he became who he became. The story of how he turned was so tragic!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 08:57
The way Kripke told IIRC is that used this to sell it to Jensen.
Jensen had tried out for Sam and they really like him. But they saw Jared and thought he would make a better Sam, especially since he was younger and had the puppy dog eyes (ok I added that last one). They thought Jensen would make an amazing Dean, which he does, because he kind of played Sam how they wanted Dean to be. So Kripke calls up Jensen and says they want him to be Dean, who has more of that smartass Han Solo thing going. And as Kripke said who doesn't want to be Han Solo. I don't think it was suppose to be a hard and fast template. Just a generally thing to sell it to Jensen. Jensen has said he really preferred to play Dean anyway, so he was happy to switch.
bethw
# bethw 2012-06-19 11:48
I thought they were more like Anakin and Obi-Wan with John as Qui-Gon and Bobby as Yoda. :)
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-19 13:16
well, anakin was the one who turned into darth vader. I loved the character of anakin but then he became evil.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 12:30
So your mad that Dean wasn't fed demon blood and therefore didn't have powers and a destiny to go evil? Just because some of Dean's storylines are human based doesn't make them any less valid. What was he supposed to do when he was being sent to hell? So you don't like ANY of Dean's emo storylines which apparently is ALL his storylines. And you don't like Sam. So why do you watch the show? Not just being snarky, but seriously why? If you've like nothing about the show since season 1, except one 1 character (when he's not being emo) why do you waste your time?

And people being mad that Dean wasn't ever a Michael's vessel is completely odd to me. Being a vessel ISN'T a good thing the character you'd be seeing is the douche bag Michael not Dean so HE wouldn't be in the story - Michael would. He would just be an angel condom. Jensen would be on the screen but Dean wouldn't- how would that be a Dean storyline.

Dean's thing is being human and how that is often stronger than any supernatural power that comes up against it. Dean took on Michael and Lucifer with nothing but Def Leppard and the Impala and love for his brother-AND WON. I found that completely KICKASS. My sister, who has a total crush on Dean, just watches that part over and over because he's so completely badass. Going in knowing you're completely outmatched is actually much more impressive than when he was a vampire and took out that whole house(although that was pretty cool). In fact the MOST impressive about vampire Dean is that he didn't feed and so was able to be human again. Gordan didn't last an hour.

I have high hopes for Purgatory too and hope both get great storylines out of it. I would even like it if Dean had some sort of supernatural quality to him when he got back and Sam has to deal with things through more humans means. I think that would be an interesting twist. Especially considering how Dean feels about monsters. But I don't see how he can have an actual plotline AGAIN since you don't think he ever had one.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 13:07
Well, I didn't know that Season 4 and early 5 were going to be wiped out when I watched them. So, in first-time watching I ADORED Season 4. "Lazarus Rising" is my favourite episode ever because I went "finally, hooray, now Dean gets his own mytharc".

Also, I quite liked Season 2 because a) the emo wasn't overdone as it is now and b) I still had hopes that Dean would be drawn into the main arc sooner or later. I simply expected it to happen for a lead.

So what I hated is Seasons 6 and 7. And I was close to giving up but the Purgatory twist gave me back a little hope.

With 5.22 it is my most hated episode ever by a longshot and really, with a few minor adjustments Dean didn't even need to be in it. He didn't even need to be brought back from hell and be in Seasons 4 and 5 and you could have the same "Sam remembers and becomes the big lone hero" story scene for scene. In terms of importance in this episode, it went: Sam - Lucifer- the car - Michael - Adam- Castiel - Dean - Bobby for me. As the culmination of the five year mytharc, I found it to be horrible. Every single scene of it.

I would even like it if Dean had some sort of supernatural quality to him when he got back and Sam has to deal with things through more humans means. I think that would be an interesting twist.

That would be perfectly fine with me. It gives him the mystery, it sounds interesting and it sounds like the first genuine role reversal on this show that I could get behind.

For once, Dean would gain something from it and what he had to give away (the human perspective, as written in this show) is no big loss to me.

So if that happened, fantastic.

And I put in the "again" because I had to technically allow for the "going to hell" to stand as a storyline. Not too well executed IMO but at least it had a great resolution.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-18 22:10
IA with all of this, and am thoroughly enjoying all of your obviously well thought out as regards the-nuts-and-bo lts-of-the-writ ing posts. Kudos.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-18 13:54
In Season 7 they tried to bring back kickass Dean when he stormed into Dick Roman's den when Bobby was captured. Sam and Dean were completely outmatched and I loved that expression on Dean's face when Sam told him they did not even know how to kill the Leviathans so how could they go in! But a lot of the focus in the episode was on Bobby.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 17:26
Hey Kelly, you actually won me over with this post! You made some good points about Dean that even I hadn't really thought of.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 17:55
YAY! I love bringing people over to the darkside! LOL. Now I must go finish cleaning house because I've spent WAY too much time debating the motives of fictional characters today-no matter how much I love them.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-18 21:48
The moment when Dean decided to reject Michael when everybody but Sam believed he'd acept to be his vessel was one of the best moments of the series.

Dean was at his lowest and got over it and decided to put a fight and choose their own destiny because of Sam. He was strong.

Had Dean said yes, and I wouldn't love him the tenth part I love that character now. I don't understand why anyone would want to change that part.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 09:07
I completely agree. That moment he said no was amazing. And that moment he winked and you knew he'd changed his mind. I literally squeed and clapped and had to rewind because got so excited I was missing the incredible scene. Oh and his killing Zachariah was totally kick ass, I never wanted anyone in the history of the show to die as much as Zach, not even Ruby or Lucifer. Condescending ass, don't get me wrong Kurt Fuller played his assishness beautifully, but man I was happy to see him get stabbed.
lianne
# lianne 2012-06-19 15:18
Quote:

Dean's thing is being human and how that is often stronger than any supernatural power that comes up against it. Dean took on Michael and Lucifer with nothing but Def Leppard and the Impala and love for his brother-AND WON. I found that completely KICKASS.
How did Dean WIN in Swan Song? It was Sam who overcame Lucifer long enough to re-cage him. And human Dean was so badly beaten by Lucifer that he couldn't do anything but watch his brother die. Dean was most definitely NOT stronger than the supernatural being he was up against.

I didn't necessarily want Dean to become Michael's vessel, but I think it was far worse for Dean's own importance to the overall story arc that he was so easily replaced in his role by Adam. As Kripke wrote Michael saying to Dean, "You're no longer part of the story."

And Kripke was right about that. At the culmination of Kripke's 5 year arc, Dean was written out of his own story. All the show allowed Dean to do was watch as Sam's actions saved the world.

So yeah... I do totally disagree that SS was a win for "human" Dean.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 16:46
He and Sam won by accomplishing EXACTLY what they meant to do-Put Lucifer back in his cage without destroying the world. I call that winning. He was the last man standing after taking on 2 archangels. Now obviously it was Sam AND Dean
who triumphed (I am not denigrating Sam's accomplishment- he made an horrible sacrifice and whose only reward would be almost 200 years of torture). But Sam would not have been able to overcome Lucifer if it hadn't been for Dean. I don't see that as being written out of the story in anyway and I DEFINITELY see it as a win for human Dean.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 17:15
Ok Kelly. I respect your views. But to me, seasons 3,4, and 6 were as much about Sam as they were about Dean. Not bashing Sammy, love him, just disagreeing that Dean was the focus. I think Sam's relationship with Ruby, as well as her getting him to use his psychic powers and also of course, the demon blood AND S6 souless Sammy was as much front and center as any of Dean's issues. In my opinion, and of course you can disagree, Sam's issues here were shown as more important than Dean's. Can I just say how much I hated that character(Ruby) ? Both Katie Cassidy's version and Jared's wife? She came between my boys and I was so glad to see her go.
But one thing I think we can both agree on is that Sam's hallucinations and near death storyline, were not given anywhere near the attention it deserved, ( and then they gave it to Cas) and Dean was relegated to being a suicidal alcoholic. Bobby, Cas, hell even CHARLIE were given better story arcs then Sam and Dean! Much of the time this season they were supporting players in their own show! Only poor Kevin, I felt, was as shortchanged. I thought he really improved from the time we first met him as a scared kid not believing what was happening to him, to the finale where he seemed to finally accept his fate as a prophet an even started to get a little game, picking the lock with a hairclip, stressing to Sam how important it was to blow up the lab, etc. I really hope they flesh his character out more next season. The only supporting player that I don't mind getting a lot of screentime is Crowley, of course.
Yeah, I know that the nature of Sam and Dean's lives, they can't really have relationships per se. And yes, I would also like to see Sam have a romance as well as Dean. Or maybe a role reversal; Dean falls in love and Sam gets the one night stands! LOL
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 17:48
Oh no question that season 4 especially had a lot of Sam storyline. I wasn't saying Sam DIDN'T have one, so much as saying Dean DID have one too.

I think you were SUPPOSED to hate Ruby, at least by the end of season 4. But you got to admit, she was effective. Not only did she let Lucifer out and set up to have his vessel waiting for him. But she also came between Sam and Dean. I mean that horrible but impressive. LOL.

One of the reasons I really like the possibilities of this of purgatory is that I see Sam and Dean being able to be really connected to it. I think that may have hurt season 7. Although it definitely wasn't my biggest problem with it.

And don't get me wrong, I would LOVE from them to have a real love connection especially something that could last beyond the show. I just don't think its likely unfortunately.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-19 06:27
Quote:
But no one blamed Sam for killing Lilith.
Regardless of what Dean was saying to Sam’s face, at some level he did blame Sam for starting the Apocalypse. His phone call to Bobby in Fallen Idols shows that. “Why go kill crazy? I don’t know, maybe the apocalypse got them all hot and bothered. Yeah well, we all know whose fault that is. Sorry, but it’s true.” His follow on discussion with Sam showed that Dean was not sorry that Sam knew what he thought.

Quote:
Dean managed to issue a better apology for something that he shouldn't have been blamed for in the first place.....
You stated that you felt Dean’s apology and follow on actions in Fallen Idols, surpassed anything that Sam gave. Yet, Sam took the exact same course of action as Dean did, just over a longer period. He verbally apologised and then spent the rest of the season 5 making a concise effort to make amends.

Quote:
It's when you lie to Dean, go behind his back and generally betray him that he gets really put out about it. :) I can't imagine why?
Yet when Dean lies, goes behind people’s backs, generally betrays them and they get really put out about it, how does he react??
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-17 09:36
Not all of us agree that Dean is the stronger character, but I liked the other things you said. 8)
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 17:28
I think both brothers are equally strong in different ways.
Clarity
# Clarity 2012-06-16 21:55
"Hopefully Carver will give Dean a chance to be more proactive than Gamble did, and thereby bring back the badass, awesome character that defines Supernatural. I also hope that he doesn't make the mistake of catering to the fans who only want to see the story of Sam, ignoring Dean and Cas, as Gamble did the past two seasons which marked them as the worst seasons of the series.

I would like to see some fairness for once, where Dean gets treated with the respect he deserves, where Sam finally sees Dean as an equal and doesn't consider him as a second class citizen and where Sam finally thinks of someone else besides himself."

Yahtzee! :) It's Sam who generally treats Dean as some sort of 2nd class half wit whom he reacts with surprise every time Dean shows he has the actual knowledge he has. I mean Sam still acts surprised that Dean's ever cracked open a book(and in fact has read some pretty complex stuff), someone to be patronized and condescended to and patted on the head. Dean does treat Sam like an equal, it's Sam who doesn't treat Dean like an equal, imo. I'd love to see Sam actually show some appreciation for Dean as a hunting partner, maybe his not being there for a while(fingers crossed Purgatory isn't "blink and you missed it") and Sam being neither Rubied or Soulless this time will maybe Sam'll come to appreciate the skills and knowledge that Dean brings to the team instead of being all "I'm stronger/smarte r/better and don't really need him but keep him around cause he's family" as he has been in the past.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 01:06
I think Sam COMPLETELY respects Dean, even more than Dean does himself or more than Sam respects himself. In fact, one of my biggest problem with the Amy issue was that Sam basically just said you were right without even really discussing the issue. Sam was MUCH more likely to listen to Dean this season then the other way around.
Dean, as he said himself, was the one was trust and respect issues this season. NOT Sam.

When has Sam even metaphorically patted Dean on the head. He's sarcastic sometimes with Dean as Dean is with Sam, because know they're BROTHERS.

Sam shows all kind of love and appreciation for Dean. Now early season 1, I will give you, Dean seemed more invested in family than Sam. But I don't think that's been true since In My Time of Dying and perhaps not since Faith. He said some dumbass things while under the siren spell, but so did Dean. And Dean has said just as mean things NOT under any spell.

Dean is a great guy and a great character, but vilifying Sam does not turn Dean into a saint. He's made mistakes, not as many as Sam, I'll grant you. But he's not perfect and neither are his actions towards Sam. I understand loving characters, but I have to admit this Sam vs Dean thing baffles me.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-18 01:33
Kelly, you have expressed it all really well. That is exactly what I feel. I too am completely baffled as to why there is the Sam vs Dean thing. I too think that Sam respects Dean a lot, and looks up to him.
Gwen
# Gwen 2012-06-18 07:49
*Applauds*

Well said, Kelly. Excellent post. :-)
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 11:42
Quote:

Dean is a great guy and a great character, but vilifying Sam does not turn Dean into a saint. He's made mistakes, not as many as Sam, I'll grant you. But he's not perfect and neither are his actions towards Sam. I understand loving characters, but I have to admit this Sam vs Dean thing baffles me.
I don't say Dean is a saint or has never made mistakes and I also think Sam loves Dean. But the writing simply failed to convince me that he respects him.

In Season 1 and early Season 2 not so much, I thought he was well on his way to (and both brothers were) get to know each other as adults and a growing respect came from that.

But since then? Nope. He may respect some parts of his brother but I don't believe he sees him as his equal - for example I'm 100 % sure he sees him as downright dumber. It's really not just the Siren spell, it's tidbits like it here and there in a lot of episodes before and since. Yet he himself wants Dean to respect him in every way possible. And sorry, I don't think one can make such a demand without reciprocating completely. I would have more respect for that if I didn't get this demand during Season 5. Two-way-street or no-way-street IMO.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-18 12:12
No Sam doesnt think Dean is dumber we can argue back and forth with this I can make a case for Dean not respecting Sam his 'the smarter brother is back line in Lazarus Rising' , the I-pod throwing .

The lack of respect he shows everytime he hits Sam I could go on.I not really going to stop someone seeing things the way they want but you claim its a two way street and yes it is .Sam trusts Dean and shown belief in him .We can all take something one of them says and claim he is treating him stupid and showing a lack of respect.
I am not going to try and change anybody's mind about
Sam it would be futile anyway but respect is something Sam does have if some think he doesnt alway's treat Dean with respect or treats him dumber and dumber then thats their right but if we are going to go down that road then Dean doesnt always treat Sam with respect so where do we go with this ? blame Sam just look at Sam and point fingers at him .

Or do we look at both brothers in this relationship ?.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 12:56
I look at both of them. And like I said the writing/perform ance have convinced me that both love each other. It has also convinced me that Dean respects Sam but not vice versa. I can't force that feeling if the show itself doesn't manage to get it across to me.

I can't change my gut reaction. It's the same with a romantic couple or any other relationship a fictional work presents. Either it works for you or it doesn't. This one doesn't anymore for me.

We could argue dialogue and scenes back and forth. In the end it is about what the show manages to convey to me. And what it doesn't.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-18 13:08
You see things from Dean's perspective obviously and frankly the writing cant convey what doesnt want to be seen.
Whatever Sam says it will be interpreted a certain way if he said the moon was rising he would be accused of arrogance it is the way it is.

I disagree with you naturally I think it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other with the brothers but we all see things differently.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 13:36
That works both ways, though. I have read enough of "anything Dean can do, Sam did better" or its counterpart "sure, Sam did wrong but Dean was ten times worse because he hadn't the excuse of..."

I don't even have a problem with someone not liking the character. Everyone has their own favourites.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 15:17
Sasha - I can understand your feelings a little bit. I was quite shocked by Sam's words in Sex & Violence. I know many felt both brothers said harsh things to each other, but I didn't. I recall Dean telling Sam he had changed and was lying a lot. That's not harsh or cruel to me; it's the truth. Sam, on the other hand, boo hoo'ed Dean's feelings about Hell and called him weak IIRC. It was harsh - definitely more harsh, IMO, than Dean's words to Sam.

S&V was hard to take. I was left wondering if Sam respected Dean at all after that episode. Sadly, we got very little POV or reaction from Sam re: what he said so it was never really clear, to me, what motivated those harsh words.

I guess I look at Season 4 as Sam's own "ego trip." He was very arrogant in that season in some respects and very full of himself. He definitely thought he was stronger than Dean and a better hunter, but I don't believe those are consistent, regular thoughts Sam has. I understand you do, but I feel it was something that surfaced in Season 4 and even then, it was not consistent. The Sam begging his brother to tell him about Hell certainly respected Dean. That brother was crying along w/Dean when Dean recounted what happened to him in Hell. That guy was vastly different from S&V Sam.

To me, Sam had issues in Season 4. Stuff was going on w/him that was never fully explained or explored. I can't discount the demon blood, which acted as a drug and clearly had an effect on Sam. Some have speculated that the DB was influencing his thoughts/feelin gs, and that could be right. I also don't see too much of a problem w/Sam, in that moment, feeling stronger, better than Dean. That is very human to me. I do think by the season finale and even before, we see instances of Sam doubting himself and what he was doing. That "message" from Dean killed Sam for a lot of reasons. I think Sam was upset b/c he felt he had lost his brother's love and respect, and that their relationship was forever changed. At the end of the day, Sam thought he was making the right decisions but was wrong. It happens.

Season 4 aside, I do believe, overall, Sam respects Dean and doesn't think Dean is an idiot. My main reason for believing this is Sam is still w/Dean. If Sam thought Dean was an idiot, then I highly doubt he'd be traveling w/Dean or following Dean's lead as much as he does. Even Soulless Sam wanted Dean to come along w/him in EOMS. Sam knows his brother is smart. There's no doubt in my mind that he feels otherwise.

Sam also looks to Dean for guidance and advice. You don't do that w/someone you don't respect. If Sam thought Dean were dumber than dirt, he wouldn't care what Dean had to say, but that wasn't the case. In the first, second, and third seasons, Sam repeatedly looked to Dean for advice. Sam also wants Dean's respect. You can't want respect from someone you don't respect. I hate Fallen Idols, but in that episode, Sam asks Dean to treat him as an equal, right? Sam wanted to be equal to Dean, to rise up to Dean's level.

Yes, Sam may have jokingly teased Dean about reading certain literature, but I don't think he meant it in a negative or cruel way just like I don't think Dean intends to be cruel when teases Sam about being a geek or a nerd. It's just brothers teasing each other.

I think there is a lot of love, trust, and respect btw the brothers.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 15:29
Sam also wants Dean's respect. You can't want respect from someone you don't respect.

I think you shouldn't but it's actually very common from what I perceive in human interaction. It's a paradoxon in some ways but if you on some level look down on someone and yet perceive them to not fully respect you? It rankles even more.

So you want to change that, not in rising to that other person's level but in actuality get that acknowledgment that you are better and be treated accordingly. Get power in the relationship, if you will.

In terms of the brothers between Seasons 4 and 5 that is how I saw it and I saw Sam being validated by the narrative. A big "no-go" for me.

Also when it comes to consistency, Sam immediately becomes more "humble" if he thinks Dean is about to leave in some way, either leave-leave or dying or not caring about his life. I don't even think that is premeditated or mean-spirited but an instinctual response at this point. As soon as Dean is "secured" again, emotionally or physically, the attitude shifts again.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-18 15:49
Sam does want power but not in the way you think.Sam has needed control over his life because he didnt have control from a child upwards until he took the courage and went to Stanford both John and Dean dictated the situation.

Sam did allow things to take control in season 4 in a bad way for the simple reason he was powerless to save Dean , he couldnt stop it for all his abilites he couldnt save Dean that day and it caused a wound that wouldnt stop bleeding until he stopped Lilth.


I will have to look at Fresh Blood and other episodes again to garner wether Sam becomes 'humble ' when Dean is going to leave in some way or he is faking his humbleness to lure Dean into some sort of false security in the relationship( that is not my Sam the one I have gotten to know ) .At the end of the day Dean wants to leave then no amount of humbleness from Sam would stop him but then it seems Dean is powerless in this relationship so maybe he cant?.Maybe Sam simply wanting a request of equality as turned into Sam wanting total power in said relationship and Dean is a mere casualty of that it seems to some.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 15:57
In the same way Sam could have left in all the years when he was apparently suffering so, so much under overbearing, bossy Dean without being able to do anything but meekly endure it?

The reality of it is noone has left for any amount of time and noone will leave for any amount of time onscreen because then the show would be over.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-18 16:04
Then they are two peas in a pod it seems. Sam the power hungry meekly enduring his overbearing brother and Dean the powerless suffering stoically in this relationship .

But onwards and upwards for the pair of them in season 8 and their relationship .
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 16:19
Quote:
Then they are two peas in a pod it seems. Sam the power hungry meekly enduring his overbearing brother and Dean the powerless suffering stoically in this relationship .
LOL :-)

And they would both be pathetic LOSERS in my book. They are both far too old to be hanging w/each other but secretly miserable. There's nothing tying them together. They can go their separate ways if they choose!

I like to think Sam and Dean are not pathetic losers so I'll continue to believe they are fine w/each other and where they both want (and choose) to be.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 16:16
Well, we can just agree to disagree.

I think Sam does respect Dean. I think he had issues w/Dean always following John's orders in Season 1, and I think that was largely b/c Sam thought Dean was smart enough and capable enough of making his own decisions. Sam didn't think Dean had to follow John's rules/laws. In Season 1, Sam seemed to be intent on getting Dean to take the lead and do his own thing regardless of what John wanted. In SW, Sam learns why Dean behaves the way he does and understands it.

I may be wrong but you have an extremely, IMO, negative opinion or perception of Sam so it's not very likely that we'll ever reach a place of understanding.

I don't see Sam as the type of person who is thinking to himself: "How dare this moron not give me the respect I'm due? He's an idiot, and I'm so much better than him. I'm going to demand that he respect me b/c I deserve it. Can you believe this idiot thinks he's better than me?

If I thought Sam was that type of person, I probably wouldn't be a fan. For the record, I don't believe either brother thinks he's better than the other - Season 4 aside where both they thought he was the better person for the mission.

As Sharon says below (or above), Sam's plea for equality in the relationship has more to do w/the parent-child dynamic Sam/Dean display than Sam wanting to lord some imaginary power over Dean. He wants to be treated like an equal, not a little brother. And that has nothing to do w/protecting or caring for each other if the other is in harm. Honestly, I've seen no real change in the relationship. What I see is Dean leading and Sam following. I really have no problem w/it to be honest w/you.

Again, you just have a really harsh view on Sam. The Sam you see is very manipulative if he "fakes" being concerned about Dean but honestly couldn't care less. The Sam you see is a sociopath! What purpose does it serve Sam to fake being interested in Dean's welfare, esp. when Dean rarely, if ever, opens up to Sam? If the Sam you see is so put off and exasperated w/his loser, idiot brother then why would he care if Dean leaves?
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-18 20:53
"I think he had issues w/Dean always following John's orders in Season 1, and I think that was largely b/c Sam thought Dean was smart enough and capable enough of making his own decisions. Sam didn't think Dean had to follow John's rules/laws. In Season 1, Sam seemed to be intent on getting Dean to take the lead and do his own thing regardless of what John wanted. In SW, Sam learns why Dean behaves the way he does and understands it."
And yet STILL doesn't understand the extent of the damage or that Sam himslef has often added to it; which brother lied to the woman he supposedly loved for the extent of their entire relationship-ov er a year and a half-because he was following Dad's rule no. 1; and which brother couldn't lie after only 2 weeks because "it just didn't feel right" to lie to someone whom he loved?
*I* think Dean has been SHOWN to us as being stronger and more independent than even Sam thinks he is or has always been-and I further think that Sam has been SHOWN to us as often "projecting" his own feelings of inadequacy onto Dean with Dean just saying nothing and "accepting" Sam's skewed judgements as truth in this-the same as he'd done from childhood with John; and THIS has never been addressed by the writers as regards the brotherly bond even though, IMO, we've clearly been SHOWN it numerous times, series-long-Asy lum, Fallen Idols, S&V, and The Slice Girls being some of the more glaring examples of it. I often wonder if they're even aware of the fact that they have actually shown that to us, though.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 21:56
Shelby, to be honest w/you, I don't understand your point. You're saying Sam is projecting his own feelings of inadequacy onto Dean and that Dean accepts those feelings as true for himself. What are your examples of this? You mentioned some episodes, but I guess I didn't view them like you.

Were you upset w/Sam for getting on Dean about telling Cassie the "big family secret?" Are you thinking he's a hypocrite for doing so b/c he's always encouraging Dean to not listen to John?

If so, all I can say is I dont' think human emotions are that black & white. Most people may falter on issues depending on the circumstances or be a stickler in one instance and not in another.

When Sam left for college (and John told him to never return), Sam left the hunting world behind completely. I'm not surprised he didn't tell Jessica about how he grew up or what his brother/father did for a living. Sam told Dean in the Pilot that he was done w/hunting. He indicated a desire to return to school once he and Dean found John and avenged their mother's and Jessica's deaths. In Season 1, Sam had no desire to hunt or be involved in that lifestyle. I dont' think his not telling Jessica aobut "hunting" had much to do w/John's "rules" and more to do w/Sam's discomfort in revealing his family business. I'm sure he never had any plans of telling her probably b/c he didn't want her to see him a freak or a weirdo.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 12:43
The Sam you see is very manipulative if he "fakes" being concerned about Dean but honestly couldn't care less. The Sam you see is a sociopath! What purpose does it serve Sam to fake being interested in Dean's welfare, esp. when Dean rarely, if ever, opens up to Sam? If the Sam you see is so put off and exasperated w/his loser, idiot brother then why would he care if Dean leaves?

I genuinely don't think he fakes his concern or his love. It is totally possible to love someone without respecting them. It is not ideal and I personally couldn't be in a relationship like that but that doesn't mean human emotion doesn't allow for it.

I also don't think Sam is a sociopath. Just that in the same way John's interaction with Dean in his formative years informed Dean's personality, I believe the same is true for Sam.

And John was an authoritarian leader, on some level to be expected because his hunting "partners" were children for the first few years. And in that partnership they had little to absolute no authority. So to me that is what Sam has internalized, if you don't have full authority, you have no power at all.

And while I also believe Sam's feelings for his father growing up were more complex - including more negativity than he ever had for his brother - he respected the man. Sam hated being on the powerless end of an authoritarian leader - like most would - but respected the man for it. Sure, it sounds paradox but again I can believe it.

Which is why I think Ruby playing the nice submissive when she got her way by subtly manipulating him fell on fertile ground.

None of all of the above I had much of a problem with. I was just entirely dismayed to see the handling of it all in Season 5, especially in the way they handled Dean in it. Like I said, for me, it was a "how not to" guide to redeeming a character. If at the very least they hadn't pinned it on Dean, I could have dealt with it better. Much better.

Recently, in Season 7 for example, apart from the stupid Amy fiasco that was pointless on every level and Slice Girls where the attitude bugged me all to hell, I thought the brotherly interaction and working together was non-offensive. They felt like more or less effective partners, colleagues - the minus a brain came in more because Bobby handfed them every single case. Or the resident guest star of the week.

If they do or don't feel personally close anymore isn't so much a concern for me because that part of the relationship is gone and buried after the handling in Season 5. I can't accept or root for it anymore.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 13:40
I don't disagree with most of your assessment of Sam really, although I don't thing that was his ONLY motivation for getting involve with Ruby and drinking DB. I sure that contributed but I think his main reasons were he hated feeling powerless when Dean died and Ruby seduce with the idea of never feeling that way again while saving people. And I think he liked the thought of taking something that was supposed to be a curse and using to save people. Like he forcing his destiny to his will. Except he WAS just being manipulated and being led down a dark path.

I think will just have to agree to disagree on season 5 because we see Sam in that season COMPLETELY and TOTALLY different. And I can't think of one moment where the blame for the apocalypse was pinned on Dean. Even though he actually did break the first seal, not one person beside Dean EVER brought it up that season or any season since. At worst in Fallen Idols (and again that was definitely not my interpretation) Sam was blaming him for a disconnect in their relationship. He NEVER placed any of the blame for Lucifer on Dean at any point, not even in S4 when he was at his worst. So I'm not sure where that is coming from.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 14:18
I'm not talking about the apocylapse. That never was my problem, not in Season 4 and not in Season 5. It was an honest mistake and to be frank, I never cared a hill of beans on who broke what and who needed to be redeemed for it or didn't.

So for breaking the seal? I could blame Sam for stupidity maybe but I never once thought he needed to be redeemed for the apocalypse.

However what he did need redemption for in my opinion was the arrogant attitude in Season 4. THAT wasn't adressed or redeemed in any way whatsoever that I could get behind.

Maybe that seems like a small, unimportant matter to others in light of thing but for me it was the absolutely and only important thing. So when I say I perceive the blame fell all on Dean, that is what I'm talking about. I saw Season 5 as a validation of my problem with Sam in Season 4 (and in smaller meassures before that).
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 18:15
Sasha - I don't think it's insignificant at all, but clearly, the writers did. For whatever reason, Kripke did not like the personal transgressions needed to be addressed. I also was more upset w/Sam's actions toward Dean than anything else but I realized that "Sam" can't say what the writers won't let him. I like Sam. I always have so I just let it go.

I guess if you've never liked Sam, it may be more difficult. I understand your problem w/the the "redemption," but what can we do. We don't write the show so the stuff we wanted addressed will never be addressed.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 18:12
I also agree that Sam was completely blamed for the Apocalypse. No one blamed Dean. I think Dean may have blamed himself once, but he also blamed Sam in Fallen Idols so the writers weren't even consistent on that point.

No one blamed who really should have been blamed: the angels. The angels jump started the Apocalypse, but everyone forgot that. At first both boys were blamed, and then it was just all on Sam. Sam said it himself in SS: he let Lucifer out and now he has to put him back in.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 18:16
I'll agree to disagree on that point, too. Dean did tell Sam it wasn't his fault, he would have made the kill, and he excused him as being high. Castiel did say something about the mess you've made to both brothers.

The angels should have taken a share in the blame as well. However, both boys made their choices, and to deny that would be to deny free will. Did the boys take more than their share of the blame? Absolutely, in both Dean and Sam's cases. They were both manipulated, but they both owned their own choices and took responsibility (until Dean's arc on this mysteriously disappeared around PONR), and that, to me, is heroic.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 18:40
Dean should have never taken any blame as he was in Hell! He did what anyone would have. I never faulted him for breaking the first seal, and I don't think anyone should have blamed him for anything he did while in Hell of all places! Dean did accept responsibility for this even though it was not his fault.

Sam was a moron in Season 4 who fell for Ruby's tricks. If he had listened to Dean of trusted his own instincts, which told him to not trust Ruby, then none of this would have occurred. I can understand Sam blaming himself more than Dean. But for Sam's actions, the Apocalypse wouldn't have happened.

I do love (I'm being sarcastic) how Castiel never blamed himself, and he's the one who released Sam from the panic room! He and his kind are 95% at fault for the Apocalypse, and Sam is the other 5%.

JMO.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 18:55
I agree that Dean shouldn't have taken any blame for what he did in Hell, and I certainly don't fault him either. But it wouldn't have been Dean if he hadn't accepted responsibility for things he really couldn't help, because that's part of who he is, for better and for worse.

Poor Sam was definitely preyed upon while he was at his lowest while Dean was in Hell. I definitely understood how he ended up in the place he was in in S4, and why he couldn't see it until it was too late. It wasn't fun to watch and it was hard at times to understand why Sam didn't listen to his instincts, Dean, or anyone else, but I do understand how it happened. He did make bad choices, and he definitely blamed himself for that and was determined to see it through.

The angels and demons definitely had their agendas and played their parts to perfection. I was able to feel sympathy for Castiel, who was trying to break millenia of obedience conditioning and made his own mistakes. (Though, let's be honest, he opened the panic room door, but walking through it and everything after that was Sam's choice.) He should have owned up to them, but in the end, he's a flawed character just like Sam and Dean. They all had their parts to play. The angel hierarchy and demon hierarchy spun their webs and in the end of S4, got what they wanted, with Sam, Dean, and Castiel all victims of their machinations and their own good intentions.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 20:23
Quote:
(Though, let's be honest, he opened the panic room door, but walking through it and everything after that was Sam's choice.)
No, actually, I fully blame Castiel for letting Sam out of the panic room. Of course, Sam walked through the door. He was essentially a junkie jonesing for another hit. I don't ever expect junkies to make rational, reasoned, good decisions. They are incapable of it b/c of the hold the drug has on their minds.

That's how I viewed Sam. Sam was incapable of making decisions so Dean and Bobby locked him away. They did that to protect him from himself. Castiel was aware of Sam's problem but still opened the door.

I'm not saying Sam isn't responsible for drinking demon blood or for hanging w/Ruby. I'm just saying he was not in the right frame of mind at that time. Dean was aware of that and took measures to take Sam out of the fight. I honestly think Dean was prepared to let Sam die before Sam continued in his behavior w/Ruby and the DB. Castiel undermined Dean's efforts to help his brother.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 20:39
That's a fair point, lala2, that Dean was determined not to let Sam continue his behavior with Ruby and the demon blood and Castiel undermined that. I do agree that Castiel made it possible for Sam to make the choices he did. On the other hand, I'm afraid I have to disagree that Sam has no responsibility for the decisions he made after Castiel opened the door. Addicts cannot be expected to make good, reasonable, or responsible actions, but that doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they do under the influence or during withdrawl. If, for example, a drug addict commits an armed robbery to get money for another fix under the affects of withdrawl, they're still the ones getting charged with robbery, not the family member that let them leave the house. So I'll agree that Castiel shares some responsibility. Sam was going through withdrawl and in pain and I had sympathy for him and understood why he chose to knock out Bobby, leave, and seek out Ruby. That doesn't absolve him of all responsibility for his actions.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 21:14
Of course, the addict is responsible for his/her behavior, but you have to admit that the drug is likely clouding his/her judgment. So, if I locked up my drug addict sister in the hopes of helping her to withdraw from the drug, and some jerk opens the door while I'm asleep and lets her out, I'm going to be ticked at that jerk. I locked her up for a reason. You let her out, and she went and did what drug addicts do. Thank you very much.

Sam was locked in a room from which he could not break free. Dean all but guaranteed that Sam would not fulfill his part of the destiny and Castiel screwed them all over.

What I'm saying is drug addicts don't make good decisions. I'm not absolving them of responsibility for their acts. I feel like I'm stating the obvious. Sam was locked up b/c Dean realized Sam couldn't make the right decisions. Castiel let Sam free and lo and behold Sam, the drug addict, made a bad decision.

I see a distinction there, but you may not.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 21:28
I think we're in agreement on the whole in terms of Castiel and Sam each bearing some responsibility, but are differing on the manner of degree. I agree that Castiel opening the door allowed Sam the opportunity to make bad decisions. I also think that Sam wasn't in the position to make good decisions at that point due to his addiction issues, and had the door not been open he wouldn't have been able to make bad decisions. I do think, though, Sam is also responsible for the choices he made once the door was open. So to me, Castiel deserves blame for giving Sam the opportunity to make bad choices, and Sam deserves the blame for his bad choices after that. I'm guessing I'm not seeing the distinction you're seeing, but that's all right. Perspectives vary.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 07:51
Emmau - if Castiel hadn't freed Sam, he would have never had the opportunity to kill Lilith. That's all I'm saying. Dean had essentially taken care if the "Sam problem" when he locked Sam in the panic room. If Castiel hadn't done what he did, the Apocalypse wouldn't have happened. Sam was locked down. There was no way he was going to be free to kill Lilith. Castiel- a character I don't dislike - has never accepted responsibility for his part.

Any blame on Dean is what really doesn't make sense because Dean had handled Sam like everyone said he should. Dean put Sam in a secure place but was sabotaged and then blamed by the same guy who sabotaged him. It's ridiculous!
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 08:42
I'm afraid I still disagree that Castiel takes all of the blame because he opened the door. To me, that absolves Sam of all responsibility for what he decided to do after that door was opened. Yes, Dean had locked Sam up, but it was still Sam's choice to knock Bobby out, leave, and seek out Ruby.

Castiel does deserve blame for his actions, though I'm sure this ship has sailed by now. But I do feel that putting all blame on angels or demons robs Sam and Dean of their free will, because it makes all their choices, good or bad, essentially meaningless. I enjoy the fact that the boys stand up like the heroes they are and shoulder their responsibilitie s, even more than they should have, because they want to do what's right.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-24 07:24
Sam is at fault ever since the beginning of S4.
At the and of S4 he has gone too far to be able to make good decision. So, it's the responsibility of the sane. (Dean, Bobby, Cas) to care for him and make decision for him when he is unable to. Like when you lock up a crazy in a mental hospital so they don;t hurt others and themselves.

I'm tick that if Dean do something for Sam because Sam couldn't do it himself ppl get angry.

But I think it's moot placing a blame on an angel. They won't repent because they can't. If they do they'll just break
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 19:37
I know I'm going to be hated for this but I don't know about Dean having NO responsibility. Don't get me wrong I would cracked like egg in hell almost immediately and grabbed up a knife to start torturing. And I'm amazed he lasted as long as he did.

BUT he made the deal that landed him there. While I love him for the self-sacrificin g idiot that he is. He WAS basically trusting a demon, knowing that the YED had big plans. And he didn't know what those plans were.

Yeah he was out of his mind with grief. But so was Sam when Dean died and he didn't get a free pass on the show.
Just look at it this way. Sam was very likely in heaven. He was out of it. But because of Dean's actions he was pulled out of heaven and plopped back into this mess. Where he ended up making his moronic mistakes in trying to save the world. And wound up almost ending it. (and ultimately spent almost 200 years in the cage being tortured).

This same mistake lands Dean in hell where eventually he begins torturing breaking the first seal.

None of that would have happened if he'd left Sam in heaven. Of course there's no way he could have known that (although he did know there was a plan). But there is no way Sam could have known Lilith was the last seal (although he did know there was a plan). Sam did chose to do things he knew were wrong for the at least partially the right reasons. Dean chose to do something he knew was wrong -well because he was in FREAKING HELL.

Yeah Cas never taking responsibility pissed me off too. I think it is an angel thing of if you follow orders and destiny you are not making a mistake.

Cause it wasn't just the panic room thing. He had known for a while what the plan was for Sam. And when Dean has a moment of crisis he worked on getting Dean to say yes, instead telling him that Lilith is the last seal that starts the apocalypse. I fully belief if Sam had known what the consequences were he would have NEVER made that mistake. Demon blood or no demon blood.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 19:50
Nope, no hate from me. Dean owned his actions because it was his choice that landed him in Hell. I really can't imagine anyone blaming Dean for breaking under 30 years of torture, but I'll agree that he decided to sell his soul for Sam, so ultimately his choice put him in that position. Dean accept responsibility for that as early as 3.1, and I think he's always felt as if that his fate was of his own making, even if he probably would have done it again. While I don't know that Dean believed there was a heaven or that the plan the YED had for Sam would extend beyond his death, he did want to save his brother from death, and his choice had grave consequences, just as Sam's choices were made with good intentions and had terrible results.

Of course, I agree that Sam had no way to know Lilith was the last seal, even if he knew there was a plan. I further agree that if he had known, he wouldn't have killed her.

I think Castiel never taking responsibility is a character flaw. It could be contributed to his millenia of following orders and believing in destiny. In 5.22, he seemed to genuinely believe Dean and Sam would both be at peace at the end. It does not excuse him from keeping things from the boys, of course. But just like the boys, he made mistakes and ended up paying for them. When he did choose to do the right thing, he had to face consequences, like being blown up twice, losing his powers, and being cut off from his family.

Hey, possibly excepting the Castiel paragraph, we agree on something today!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 20:22
Yay we do agree! I don't know if Cas thought Sam was at peace but I could see that being the case because he thought he rescued him shortly afterwards. And I agree with everything else! I like Cas It just bothers me he NEVER took any responsibility and did seem to blame everything on Sam at first.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 20:42
Yup, Castiel's inability to accept any responsibility and to put blame on Sam or Dean for his actions is definitely one of his less endearing qualities. I like him, too, but he's got his bad points, just like Sam and Dean. We're in complete agreement there.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 21:29
Oh, yes, I agree that Sam would NOT have killed Lilith if she were the last seal. Ruby tricked Sam. I wish he had been smarter about her, but he wasn't.

I think it's hard for me to blame Dean b/c I saw his CRD as extremely self-sacrificin g. Dean had NO clue that any of this would occur. He thought his deal would be just like all the others he witnessed or knew about. He thought he was giving up his life for his brother. No, he didn't think of the effect it would have on Sam, but he was in such despair and grief when he made the deal. It was an impulsive act. He couldn't break it so he died. He was ripped apart by hellhounds. He was sent to hell. After 30 years of horrific torture, Dean finally decided to get off the rack. I just think it's harsh to blame him for actions taken while in Hell. And I hate that Dean actually blamed himself for succumbing to years of torture.

I think it's really hard for me to identify w/Sam's grief (and I love Sam) b/c it wasn't portrayed as well as Dean's. I think it was a mistake to start the show off w/him in a hotel room w/a naked Ruby. I know some time passed, but I don't think Sam's arc was told very well in Season 4.

That's JMO. No HATE from me though :-)
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 21:37
Oh, I agree that Dean had no clue what his crossroads deal would bring to pass. I think he genuinely believed he was giving up his life to save his brother, as John did for him. He didn't think about anything beyond that and even got called out on being selfish in 3.1, which he readily copped to. He accepted responsibility for his choice and even tried to obstruct Sam from searching for a way to save him in fear of reneging on the deal and killing Sam all over again. He wanted to save Sam, but the consequences for his choices were bad and he accepted responsibility for that. i hated that he blamed himself for succumbing to years of torture as well, but it was very Dean to me.

See, I lean towards Dean, but I did identify with Sam's grief, in S3 in Mystery Spot and NRFTW, and in S4 in IKWYDLS. I never believed he was anything less than devestated by Dean's death. I can agree that it was a mistake to start in the hotel room with Ruby, but I always believed he missed Dean and clutched onto Ruby in a state of grief. I think his arc in S4 was much more sympathetic than S5, but of course, mileage varies.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 22:02
Yes, I know and agree that Sam was utterly devastated by Dean's death. We saw just a glimpse of that in NRFTW as well as a little bit in IKWYDLS. I jsut wish his grief had played a bit more dramatically.

Either here or in the Sam thread, I've gone on and on about me not really buying Sam ever speaking to Ruby again no matter how depressed or suicidal he was. I feel his arc w/her required a better set up - at least for me.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 22:19
I see what you're saying, and I understand completely what about wanting more dramatic displays of grief from Sam. I also understand why Sam speaking to Ruby again aggravates you. It aggravated me as well, especially in light of NRFTW, but I'm not sure how they could have gotten around it and kept Sam's same story arc. If they'd brought in another demon temptress, it would have made Sam look just as bad for falling for Ruby's schtick one year and another demon's the next, but having it be Ruby after lying about saving Dean the year before was problematic, too. I agree with you completely there.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 23:09
I'm glad you understand my point. I feel like Kripke didn't really care how "Sam" looked in Season 4 as long as he got to play out the Ruby arc he planned in Season 3, which was cut short b/c of the writers' strike.

I honestly don't think Kripke needed Ruby or anyone else for Sam to "go darkside." Dean's death could have served as the catalyst for that transition. I'm not sure how Ruby could have been reintroduced. Why not have Sam meet another hunter named "Jenny" but who is actually Ruby or something? I don't know. I'm not a writer :-)

I do think that they way they presented it was problematic.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-19 23:19
Maybe Kripke thought that Sam going darkside on his own would make Sam look worse? I agree that Sam could have easily "flipped the switch", as Ava termed it in S2, but then once Dean returned he would have been solely responsible for not changing his methods in face of that. In S4, Ruby is there to blame for pushing Sam to drink the blood, use his powers, not listen to Dean or anyone else, etc., so I'm wondering if Ruby was supposed to take some of the hit for Sam, so he wasn't solely culpable for what happened in S4. But that's all speculation, so take it for what it's worth.

I further agree that the Ruby arc probably would have worked better if the writers' strike/Dean really goes to Hell arc hadn't happened, and his involvement with her had been 1) continuous and 2) part of saving Dean from Hell. As it was, her disappearance/r eappearance from S3 to S4, especially in light of 3.16, is problematic. Once 3.16 happened, there really wasn't a way to reintroduce her that wasn't a problem, because if it was Ruby and Sam didn't know it he would have looked just as bad for getting played by her.

Maybe you're right and it would have been better for Sam have his darkside arc alone, without Ruby, because I'm not sure how much her involvement made things look any better for Sam. We are in agreement here, I think.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-20 00:12
Yes, I think we are. Ruby should have been nixed or revamped in a better way for Season 4. Sam being involved w/her on any level never made any sense, esp. after NRFTW. If Sam had suspected she was playing him before NRFTW, that episode made it clear she was. Sam was smarter than that. Even in the midst of severe grief, I can't see him talking to her!

Willow from Buffy: The Vampire Slayer went "dark" on her own, and was fine. I think Sam could have done the same. Honestly, Sam never really went dark. Even though he used his powers, he used them to save people. He never had evil intent. Maybe he should have. Kripke could have done that whole Dean versus Sam thing he was setting up!
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-20 00:21
Good point--I agree that Sam's dark arc was fairly dark-lite, in that his intentions weren't really evil. His methods and attitude might have gone dark, but he never really was out to hurt people or do evil things. I think, again, Kripke really didn't want to take Sam too dark, because he didn't want Sam to be irredeemable in the end. I read somewhere that Kripke's original ending was for Sam to go evil and Dean to be forced to kill him (no source that I can remember, so take it with a grain of salt), and I know an ending like that would have ruined the show for me. No matter what other issue I have with show, I'm happy they didn't take Sam truly evil. Better a dupe for Ruby than beyond the point of no return, in my opinion.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-20 01:12
I know you said take it with a grain of salt, but if Kripke was looking at Sam's character as Luke Skywalker as has been reported it is not possible that he wanted to take Sam's character to the dark side. In that case he would have compared Sam to Anakin, the good guy who goes bad and becomes Darth Vader.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-20 01:20
Yep, I'll stand by my take it with a grain of salt comment. In fact, the way Sam's story played out is fairly comparable to Luke Skywalker, from what I remember of Return of the Jedi. Luke was tempted by the dark side and briefly gave in, cuting off Vadar's hand, but in the end he chose to turn his back on the power his anger/whatnot gave him and choose good. So maybe Kripke did manage to fulfill that part of his vision for the finale. Huh. Never thought about it that way before. Interesting.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-20 01:38
Quite fascinating for a Star Wars fan like me! In fact
the reason I got hooked to supernatural in the first
place was because I initially saw some parallels. Later
I started to love SPN for what it is.
Coming to Luke being tempted by Palpatine, yes you
are right, but it was a for a very short period and
Luke gave in to his rage when his father Darth Vadar
made a comment about his sister Leia. Somehow I
did not think this was significant. Sam on the other
hand was on the dark path for months, in fact a
whole year if one counts the 4 months that Dean
was dead.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-20 01:45
Well no, it's not a perfect comparison, is it? Sam did flirt with the dark side, so to speak, for a lot longer than Luke did. Still, both of their triggers were their siblings. So that's an interesting parallel.
misty
# misty 2012-06-20 05:43
So Dean's suffering doesn't count? He never had a 'wall', so he had to just live with all those painful memories. Sorry, that came out more snarky than I meant. I'm sure you don't mean Dean's suffering doesn't count, but there are those who do.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-20 00:15
@lala 2 I can see your point about why Sam wouldn't have worked with Ruby, but I think emmau has a point about Sam going darkside on his own making him look more unsympathetic (as it is some people still hate him) and writers would worry about taking him so far that they could not recover him in the audiences eyes. Since he's one of only two main characters, that had to be a consideration I think. I the strike probably did effect the arc.

Also I posit this, he was more likely to work with Ruby not another character because she had told that she knew how to get his power to work. And I'm not sure he would really blame Ruby, as we've seen he's much more likely to take all the guilt upon himself.

He saw it as his responsibility to save Dean. Dean had done whatever is necessary to save him, regardless of Sam's wishes, ie selling his soul. But Sam would likely feel guilty he hadn't done everything to save Dean, ie working with Ruby regardless of Dean's wishes. IMO he saw this as a failure on his part, not Ruby's.

Which is possibly how he justified to himself continuing to use his powers after Dean got back even though Dean was so adamantly opposed. He had already gone down the path of NOT using his powers and had lost Dean. He wouldn't want to make that "mistake" again. And Ruby knew how weak and vulnerable he would be after Dean's death and how to play on his fears about losing Dean even after he got back. She was one manipulative bitch. So I'm sure she told him how strong and powerful he was and how she was only trying to save lives and stop Lilith. If I didn't hate her so much, I would really admire her.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-24 07:54
I guess I can see what you mean.

People make stupid decision to save the one they love. It's the LOVE that drives them. It's the LOVE Dean had for Sam that made him sell his soul eventhough he knew it was wrong.

Had it been Bobby who been in hell and Ruby whispering in his ear that Lilith is out to kill Bobby and and to drag him back to hell, Sam would think twice. Sam loved Bobby but not as much as he LOVED Dean. No one loves Dean better than Sam and no one Loves Sam better than Dean.

They love the other even more than they love themselves and they'll probably kill the whole world and start the apocalypse by themselves to save the other. It's the most beautiful love that I've ever seen on TV. It should be brilliant, and it's still, had the Demons and Angel not playing them. They are the ones that should be put to blame.

Sam and Dean are not guilty of anything except for loving each other too much. The Demons and Angles are jealous of them so they do everything in their power to break them. I can see that GOD/CHUCK/Whoev er is watching. Sam and Dean are God's champion for love heroes. He let the angels and demons have their play because He believes that Sam and Dean will pull true that their love however it makes them vulnerable also makes them stronger.

That's the gist that I get of this show and that's why I love them. So, guys please don't put the blame on them. Blame the Demons and Angels for their jealousy.

When I hear the line of Dante's which is my fav line 'You're the love that moves the sun and other stars' I wonder is there any love like that in the world? Now, I found it in Sam and Dean, and it's not necessary romantic love either.

Their love is the one that moves heaven and hell fighting for each other.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 08:44
If Dean and Sam have no responsibility for what happens or what they do, then they have no free will. Yes, demons and angels played their part, and that part was not insignificant. But to me, we can't credit them for the good that they've done but take all of their wrong choices and put them on angels and demons. I don't think Sam and Dean making mistakes makes them bad or unsympathetic (even when the writing does them no favors)--it makes them human, and I prefer our heroes be human.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 10:44
No. I am not saying that they don't have free will. In fact from all of the problem that hit them they managed to survive and avert the apocalypse.
I just wanna way that if we count their mistakes there'll be no end. And at the end when we root to the source who will we blame?

For example, a woman slipped on her bathroom door because her daughter unfinished cleaning it up. She went outside because her son fell down the tree. Her son climbed up the tree because his sister told him to get her cat from up the tree. The cat was a gift from her grandfather, the fallen woman's husband..... and so on and so far until at the end they'll blame God.

It won't end. I just want this putting on blame to end. Sam and Dean are fucked up, yes. Will you sell your soul if your brother/sister died? Or will I? Perhaps not. But Sam and Dean are dependable to each other like that due to John's upbringing. Why is John like that? Because Marry died. Why Mary had to die? because she made a deal with a demon. So Azazel here is the biggest wrong. But Azazel works under lucifer order to find the true vessel he must do anything necessary. So Lucifer is in the wrong. But God put Lucifer in Hell. So God is in the wrong now?

It won't ever end. And there is nothing come out of it by putting blame on people. we don;t live backwards but forwards. Just let's not make the same mistake again.
Sam and Dean realize this.

Dean said, if he knew it would come like this the way he knew now that there's actually heaven. When Sam died perhaps he'll think twice before selling his soul. He would think that Sam would be in heaven and happy. But despite all pastor Jim's tutoring he didn't believe in heaven, didn't believe in God.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-24 07:36
I agree it was a bad move from the writers and Kripke.

It makes Sam looks stupid. Yes, It doesn't have to be a demon who drove Sam to be in line with the demon plan. I mean the whole DB itself is moronic. The others psychic children don't have problem accessing their power and Sam was suppossed to be the strongest as he is the true vessel. Even Ruby said Sam didn't need a wing to fly, he had it all along. So with proper practice (like the kids in AHBL), Sam can kill Lilith even without DB. It was a mess.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 22:25
I identified with Sam too. Okay Dean's raw pain moment in AHBL2 was amazing, but Sam's lost hope and dark, suicidal tendencies really got to me.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 22:08
I don't blame Dean either for cracking in Hell. Let's face it if he hadn't made the deal Sammy would be in heaven but he wouldn't be on the show. Nobody wants that. And I love him doing for something so incredibly stupid. I was just pointing out the his was not totally w/o responsibility in breaking the first seal.Quote:

And I hate that Dean actually blamed himself for succumbing to years of torture.
I hate it too. He holds too much guilt of things he can't control.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-19 21:59
Quote:
I know I'm going to be hated for this but I don't know about Dean having NO responsibility. Don't get me wrong I would cracked like egg in hell almost immediately and grabbed up a knife to start torturing. And I'm amazed he lasted as long as he did. BUT he made the deal that landed him there. While I love him for the self-sacrificing idiot that he is. He WAS basically trusting a demon, knowing that the YED had big plans. And he didn't know what those plans were.
No hating here either. There are big parallels between Dean breaking the first seal and Sam breaking the last one. Neither knew they were helping to let Lucifer free. Sam didn't know that killing a demon would break the last seal and Dean didn't know that making a pact with a demon would lead to him breaking the first seal. But in both cases, the "sin" came from tapping into a power they knew to be evil to violate the natural order for personal gain. Dean knew making deals with demons was wrong. He was initially pretty unforgiving in Crossroad Blues. But he couldn't face being left alone after Sam died so he did it anyway. And before someone says that he did it for Sam, he didn't. Dean was angry that John had sold his soul for him, so he knew Sam wouldn't want it either. Sam tapped into his psychic powers knowing they were from an evil source to become stronger. Both acts were also immediately followed by lies (Dean told Sam the knife had only wounded him, and Sam denied he was using his powers).
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 22:21
I disagree.

Dean's whole speech to Sam's dead body was about how he let down Sam (and John) by not saving Sam. It had nothing to do w/how lonely Dean was going to be w/Sam gone. He was reflecting on how he spent his life taking care of Sam, and Sam was now dead. He didn't know what to do to fix it, it being Sam's death.

If Sam was resurrected and left Dean to go to college and never speak to Dean again, Dean would have been sad but happy b/c Sam would have been alive. Dean didn't want Sam back b/c he couldn't stand being alone. It was never about that. He couldn't stand Sam being dead.

He even confesses in 3.01 that he knew it was selfish but he couldn't have lived with Sam being dead. Dean never says he couldn't have lived w/o Sam. Dean can live w/o Sam. He's done it before and would do it again if Sam chose to leave.

I also think Dean's thinking that he shouldn't even be alive also came into play when he made the deal. He even told Bobby that he shouldn't be there, and that saving Sam meant his life finally meant something.

So, I respectfully disagree that Dean made the deal for selfish reasons. That's just my take on it though.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-19 22:53
Maybe I didn't phrase this very well in saying this was for personal gain because they both had altruistic reasons in what they wanted (Dean wanted Sam to be alive and Sam wanted the power to kill Lilith) as well as personal ones, but in the end I think it was the personal reasons that drove them both to the point of using demon power. Dean had a death wish. He wanted to be the one who died rather being the one who watched his family die, and that's why he did what he did. His decision wasn't about thinking that Sam would want to be brought back under those circumstances. He knew better after his experience with John's pact. Sam also had a need for power that ran much deeper than his desire for revenge toward Lilith.

Anyway, in both cases, there was something they did that they knew to be wrong that led to the breaking of the seals.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 23:46
Okay . . . I hear what you're saying. Hmm . . . that's very interesting. Do you think that was a conscious thought Dean had? If he was thinking along those lines, I'd say it was a subconscious - deeply subconscious - thought.

I honestly think Dean was simply devastated by Sam's death and decided to make a CRD to bring him back. Dean expected to get 10 years out of the deal, not 1. When he made the deal, I don't think he was thinking about how he didn't want to be the only Winchester left alive. I think he was more focused on this idea that he had failed both John and Sam and wanted to fix the fact that Sam was dead.

For some odd reason, I also think Dean thought Sam was emotionally stronger than him and would be able to move on from his death. I'm not sure if those thoughts were in Dean's mind when he was headed to the crossroads though. Those type of thoughts may have come later and could have been how he tried to justify the deal in his mind.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-20 07:59
This is complex and there's a few different things going on here, but I think one of the things was a subconscious death wish he has had since In My Time of Dying. He came to terms with dying in that episode and had trouble coming back after John made his deal. When Sam died, it was clear in Dean's mind that he should be the one dying, not Sam.

EDITED TO ADD: Sometimes its harder to be left behind than to be the one who died. I think once Dean got over his fear of death, he felt cheated that John had stolen his way out and left him with the responsibility of dealing with Sam's demon issues.
misty
# misty 2012-06-20 05:49
I very strongly disagree. It was VERY clear Dean was heartbroken and he LOVES SAM and wanted him back because of THAT. Dean did not sell his own soul and go to hell because he was selfish! Sorry, trying not to be snippy and I realize you don't like Dean, but COME ON! Not to mention the demon said she would only give him year and he still made the deal! Doesn't sound like he just didn't want to be alone to me!
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-20 06:46
I do like Dean, as I like all if the characters, and I don't disagree that he was heartbroken. And I wasn't the one who used the word selfish, that was actually Dean. My point was is that you don't make deals with demons because you can't live with a brother's death, or the feeling that you let him down. Just like you don't use psychic powers given to you by demons for good intentions. Both Sam and Dean knew that what they were doing was wrong.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-24 07:12
I think everybody who falls for a demon trick is a moron. S3 Sam was a moron for letting Demon played trick on him leading him by the scruff of his neck with the lies that she can save Dean from hell. There must be some hidden agenda if a demon offered you a deal too good to be true SAM. Haven't you ever learn?

So S4 Sam is moron twice. Could be due to the addictive value of DB. I blame Kripke and the writers here.

It's a demon. How evil can you get. They are liars, The live in Hell, They were souls of sinners. Their one true agenda is to drag humans to hell. I think it's true with Supernatural world too. (Repo Man)

Castiel never blame himself because he is not human. Like Anna and Dean's conversation implied that Angels don't know guilt. I can dismiss Cas because he is not human. He is just a species.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-24 08:06
Working with a demon (Crowley) helped put Lucifer back in the Cage. Were they morons then? Working with a demon (Meg and again Crowley) and pure evil, the Alpha Vamp, helped them kill Dick Roman. Were they morons then?

SPN has shown you have to risk big (working with demons) if you want to gain big (ending the Apocalypse, bring Sam back from the dead etc). All people do irrational things which can be deemed 'moronic' in times of desperation so I find it does quite a disservice to the characters to simply call them 'morons' without giving consideration as to why Sam (and Dean and Castiel) decided to work with demons in the first place.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 08:50
No, but at this point I think the waters have been muddied far too much in terms of evil and good on this show. Demons are the same as angels, monsters are the same as people, everyone is bad so what's the point? I'd like to see show draw some lines in the sand again, and since every demon deal has screwed them in some way (remember, Crowley's deal in S5 for Bobby's soul was a double cross they narrowly avoided) I think they could start there.

I'm not calling anyone a moron, because show has literally given the boys no other options but to ally with evil to get things done. Most of the time it does backfire, so I'm personally hoping this year the writers do something different.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 11:40
You clearly did not get what I mean. I'm just saying that, If I can spot Ruby's lies a mile ahead when I saw season 3, so should Sam. And I’m even not the one who wrote the script, but alas the writer choose not to write it that way. Whenever I saw her blond head on screen I always think 'oh, she's up to no good'.

I was just disappointed that Sam trusted her too much. Even willing to drink blood because of it.

Chuck said "Drinking Blood. You gotta know that's wrong, right?"

Treat all demons with wary, that's all I'm asking. If Sam works with Ruby but not trusting her too much, I won't have a problem. The reason S4 is so troublesome for me is just that. The whole demon blood is a stupid way of making the plot forward. Where is in between those drunk episodes of Sam that he suddenly thinks 'hmmm I think I'm gonna drink a demon's blood. Let's see how it taste' Sam gotta know that's wrong. But he did it anyway.

Like sacrificing babies for a ritual. I don't think the mother will forgive you just because you succeeded in bringing back (insert important person here).

What I'm saying is... Sam gotta know that's wrong. He had a high moral value. So where was on the way from the end of S3 and the beginning of S4 he began to slide? I'm just not satisfied by the way the writer/Kripke wrote Sam.

When Ruby approached him, Sam should be wary. Should give her the third degree at least. Even Meg complained to being treated like the third class citizen by Dean. Crowley said, 'Oh no don't trust me'
That's how you treat demons, ppl. Works with them, ok, but don't trust them.

What I call moronic is the trusting of Demon. Trusting them so that you're happily drinking their blood. I'm not saying about Not working with them. Use them by all means. Kill them afterward if you can. What Sam did was fucks (excuse my language) her and drinks her blood. Bobby had had precautions when dealing with Cowley, he's desperate but wary. All of them post S4 always dealing with Demons with red alert ringing in their head. I guess they've learn the mistakes from Sam.

What I'm trying to say, in which probably I didn't write it in the right way so that you miss my meaning is Sam should know that there's a hidden agenda there.

When Ruby said that she can help him save Dean, Sam should say "what's in it for you, then? I don’t trust you, why d’you wanna help me? "

When Ruby said that she was once human, Sam should say "but you went to hell because you deserve it. You practiced black magic to kill people. Or you just denied it and claimed that you forget? and you ask me to believe that your heart is pure and you help me out of your kindheartedness . The reason you fell to hell clearly shown that you shouldn't be trusted."

When Ruby said she just want to kill Lilith, Sam should say "Find, show me your card. Then I'll see if you're backstabbing me. If you said about doing dark ritual or any kind I'll be the one who slid your throat first."

When Dean went to hell and Ruby approached him, Sam should say “You lied to me. And all of that shit you said about saving Dean in the end is your way to get close to me, right? Dean said that you said there’s no way to save him. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
“But Sam you can get revenge by getting stronger to kill Lilith. Here drink my demonic blood and have sex with me.”
“I will have my revenge but not in your way. Drinking your demonic blood? You’ll turn me to darkside? Do you think I’m that stupid? (apparently Sam is stupid, the writer wrote him that way) Have sex with you? I’ll have sex with Madison ten times over than with you!”

That's the attitude that I wanna see from Sam. But I guess the Sam from S1-S3 is too trusting on people (demon). Too doey eyed and too softhearted.
I guess Sam first drink Demon blood after he had sex with Ruby? perhaps she got spell on him. By having sex with her, she somehow leading him by her nether region. And I hate to see Sam like that. I hate the writers to write Sam like that. "Oh yes, Ruby, yes I'll drink your blood. As long as you let me bone you I'll happily drink your blood, just let me have sex please." (makes me wanna puke)

All of your examples above didn't mention about drinking Demon Blood at all. So, I gotta ask, Tim, what's your opinion about it? And please don't use other examples as your answer :D And please don't use IF , if you can.. :P

The subject of my comment above is TRUSTING Demon, FALLING for Demon's trick, but you reply with WORKING with demons. :D :D I get what you're trying to do here, TIM :D D: There's no word that says TRUSTING in your comment. You and I clearly talking about different things and you don't mention Demon Blood at all.

I think you know what I mean and just playing around with me. Are you deliberately twisting my words or you're just teasing me?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-25 18:50
Quote:
All of your examples above didn't mention about drinking Demon Blood at all. So, I gotta ask, Tim, what's your opinion about it? And please don't use other examples as your answer And please don't use IF , if you can..
I’ve never had a problem with Sam drinking demon blood, kaj. I completely understand why he did it. I’ve given the reasons why I don’t have a problem with it numerous times, in numerous articles. And honestly, given the limitations you’ve decided to put on what I can and cannot say, I’ve absolutely no intention of reposting them for you.

And I do apologise. I didn’t realise the work ‘if’ offended so you so much. Had I known it would provoke such a violent reaction and derogatory comment from you I’d never have used it.

Quote:
The subject of my comment above is TRUSTING Demon, FALLING for Demon's trick, but you reply with WORKING with demons. I get what you're trying to do here, TIM D: There's no word that says TRUSTING in your comment.
What exactly was I trying to do, kaj? There was no word that says TRUSTING in your original comment either so it’s rather difficult to know what the subject of your comment was. With all due respect, I’m not a goddamn mind reader. If you want people to know the subject of your comment, perhaps you should state what it is.

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You and I clearly talking about different things and you don't mention Demon Blood at all.
It’s actually not obligatory on this forum (or any forum) to respond to every single word a commenter uses. You mentioned ‘falling for a demons tricks’, that was what I addressed. Every single time a Winchester works with a demon they are both trusting it and falling for its tricks, because every time they do it, they do it because they believe there will be a benefit to it. So whether it be demon blood, or crossroads deals, or getting their blood to kill a Leviathan, they are ‘falling for its tricks’ ergo, by your argument both Sam and Dean have been 'morons' since season 2, the first time they dealt with a demon.

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I think you know what I mean and just playing around with me. Are you deliberately twisting my words or you're just teasing me?
If I knew what you meant I’d have addressed it, kaj, why the hell wouldn’t I? I’m neither teasing you nor deliberately twisting your words and I’m hugely offended (and quite frankly, beyond fucking pissed) that you consider that I have. Do you believe that I have some sort of an issue with you that warrants your accusing me of such a thing? I used the words that you used in your post so really kaj, I have no idea what your problem is with what I posted.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-26 04:16
First of all, I’m very sorry that what I said in my comment above has offended and pissed you off. It was never my intention to offend anyone. So, I’m very sorry if you get upset, Tim. I don’t wanna fight.

Secondly, I realize that we view things differently and I stand by my opinion on things. I too don’t want to change your opinion on things; you’re free to have different opinion as I am free to voice my opinion. I don’t have hard feelings for you and I don’t wanna fight. This is not the place.

Thirdly, my first comment above it as an agreement with lala2’s comment.
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Sam was a moron in Season 4 who fell for Ruby's tricks. If he had listened to Dean of trusted his own instincts, which told him to not trust Ruby, then none of this would have occurred.
I agree with what she said about demon blood plotline. I agree that that plot in the show was a mess. I also agree with what she said that Sam’s story in S4 should have been handled better.
I wish the writer never choose that road to write Sam. Maybe you can understand Sam’s reason. But for me, whatever Sam’s reasoning to drink demon blood doesn’t make it right. I consider demon blood is like drugs and drugs are bad.
Lots of teenagers fall for it for sooo many reasons. They blame so many bad things that happen in their life for their reasoning to use drugs. But still drugs are bad. No matter what their reason is, no matter what, drugs are still bad.

This is why S4 falls short for me. They shouldn’t write it like that. Chuck’s words still ringing in my ears “you gotta know that’s wrong, right” Sam gotta know that’s wrong but the writers and in extension Kripke made Sam do it anyway. Why?

You are free to disagree, Tim, and I respect your opinion for it. My only problem is about drinking demon blood. Sam drinks demon blood because Ruby told him to gain power. The moment Ruby told Sam to drink demon blood, there should be alarm bell going off in Sam’s head. It’s just my theory that Ruby somehow use sex to lure Sam, perhaps she put spell on him when they have sex for the first time. But others may disagree or perhaps ignore my theory. It’s ok. But just like lala2 said it was a mistake to start the episode off w/him in a hotel room w/a naked Ruby. That scene itself made me curious about the nature of Ruby’s seduction. Why would the writer put that scene in there? To imply that the sex between Sam and Ruby is somehow important to be told? So, there must be something in that intimate scene that the writer use to move forward the plot. There must be something in the ‘intimate’ act itself that help Sam’s slide to darkness. Sam's story arc was not told very well in Season 4.

Maybe you find my respond is volatile and harsh in regards to Sam’s characterizatio n above (with the examples of dialogues) and I’m sorry for that.
That’s just how I see the writer wrote Sam in S4. Not to mention that I really hate Ruby with a passion so maybe my hatred on her is translated harshly and volatile on page. But I’m hating a demon, I don’t think there’s something wrong with hating a demon too harsh or too volatile. Please don’t think it’s an aversion towards you or your comment. I found your other comment is interesting and I often found myself agreeing with your comments. I guess in this problem, we just disagree. It’s ok.

The writers made Sam looks stupid. I have that impression because of the way they wrote it. Obviously Sam is just a character and he talks and moves because the writer wrote the story for him but the whole demon blood fiasco shouldn’t be there. It should stop when Azazel died. I don’t know how the writers of S4 forgot that Ava could master her power so fast without drinking any demon blood. (I think she never drank demon blood). So, I never understand why they felt the need to reintroduce demon blood and making it as an addictive substance not unlike drugs in S4.

The demon blood plot line will always baffled me and I will always think it’s a “stupid” way of developing plot. In the end, Sam accused Ruby that she poisoned him. Then Ruby called Sam ‘dumbo’ for believing her. She said Sam had it all along and didn’t need demon blood in any way to be stronger. I mostly blame the writers here. Sam should be smart, right? Why couldn’t they make Sam remembering what Ava said and contradicted it to what Ruby said about gaining more power by drinking demon blood? Why couldn’t they make Sam use his intelligence to assimilate Ruby’s lies and find fault in it? In the end, Ruby’s words and Ava’s words has similar meaning. That Sam never needed demon blood and that he had it all along. Sam is the true vessel so logically he is much stronger than Ava. Sam should know about this. The writers should not neglect Sam’s intelligence in his character when they write Sam's scene.
So, I stand by my opinion that the whole demon blood fiasco is “moron”. The writer made Sam a moron. Just because of that, it makes me retreat back to S3 because it all started there.

peace out :D
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-26 04:51
No characters are black and white, they are gray and that is one of the reasons I love SPN. These guys, Sam and Dean, they are so very human and make mistakes. Like Sam did with demon blood. It was a weakness, but instead of thinking it stupid I think of it as weak. And he did it because he wanted the strength it gave him, and he was saving people. Perhaps an attractive woman made him fall for it easier, I don't know. But I do not think it can be compared with drug taking although Dean believed it did. Right from the start Sam wanted to save people, he hated killing so this was used by Ruby to turn him. And ofcourse the revenge part was an added incentive. The demon blood was a drug but unlike drugs he didn't do it to get high.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-26 08:04
I don't look at this storyline as Sam blindly trusting Ruby and not realizing that drinking demon blood is bad. I think Ruby was very convincing, and Sam did start to let his guard down around her a little, just like Dean has time and again let his guard down around Crowley, but that doesn't mean that Sam didn't expect there to be a price to pay for working with a demon. And sex doesn't equal trust.

The price that Sam expected, and was willing to pay, was that drinking blood turned him into a monster. In a rewatch, I noticed how we have ghouls/monsters drinking Sam's blood in Jump the Shark, and in the very next episode we see Sam drinking (in a ghoulish fashion) the blood of a demon. The writers intended a connection. And if you don't think that Sam cared that he was being turned into a blood-drinking monster, think about the rage that Sam flew into in When the Levee Breaks when Dean called him a monster. The reward Sam thought he was getting was the strength to make a meaningful difference in his and Dean's fight against Lilith and in stopping the Apocalypse so that Dean wouldn't have to carry it all alone.

The characters have all expected there to be a price to pay when working with a demon, but demons have been shown to present one smaller price, and then do a bait and switch so that the price turns out to be something much bigger. Mary did it. She thought YED would ask something of her, not that he would turn her child into a monster and set in motion a plan to have her children start the apocalypse. Dean did it. He thought the price was his life and his soul. He didn't realize going to hell would lead to him breaking the first seal to let Lucifer out. John did it. He thought the price was his life and his soul, but YED had the same plans for John (the first seal) as he had for Dean. And Bobby did it. He thought he was loaning his soul to Crowley. He didn't expect that Crowley wouldn't let him out of the deal if they stopped the Apocalypse.

At this point if Sam and Dean continue to keep making deals with demons than I'll agree that they're stupid, but at the time Sam started drinking blood he didn't know about the bigger costs (that Mary had made a deal, that Dean and John had been targeted by YED to break the first seal).
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-26 09:25
I have read many nice therories on why Sam drank Ruby's blood, but unfortunately, we never got to see anything on screen to explain why he made this decision. I think this was a huge mistake. They didn't allow us to relate to Sam or understand his motives. Honestly, most of us make up reasons why Sam drank her blood or how she introduced it into the relationship, but we don't know.

I have a problem w/not knowing. I know some have said they don't need to see everything, but in this instance, I did. It was very hard for me to reconcile in my mind b/c I couldn't come up w/a legit reason for anything Sam did in Season 4. None of it made sense to me. Depression didn't answer it. Guilt didn't answer it. Revenge didn't answer it.

So, I, personally, needed to see how Ruby introduced the DB, why Sam chose to do it, what he was thinking he'd accomplish by it, etc. We got none of that b/c Kripke wanted to "surprise" the audience.

We had Sam making the most idiotic, IMO, of decisions in Season 4 all b/c Kripke wanted to continue the Ruby story he didn't get to complete in the 3rd season. I could understand a Sam willing to go dark or become a monster to save his brother from an eternity in Hell. I don't quite understand a Sam willing to go dark or become a monster when his brother is alive, healthy, and for the most part, well. It doesn't track in my mind.

Like I said, I loved Season 4 when it aired. I still enjoy that season but I must admit that, in retrospect, Sam's character was done quite a disservice w/that season. Everything he did was shrouded in mystery. He was aligned w/evil and demons, and it was really hard to support his actions. He was drinking demon blood and sleeping w/a demon. Who could get behind that or support that as positive actions to take?

I don't have a problem w/Sam making mistakes. I would have been fine w/Sam "going darkside" on his own. I just feel Ruby was unneccessary after Season 3. I just don't see the Sam I watched for three years listening to Ruby in Season 4 no matter how depressed he was. She had lied to him, and he knew that in NRFTW. Why would he even speak to her again? And since Kripke didn't bother to tell that part of the story AND I couldn't come up w/a good reason for it, Sam, essentially, behaved like a moron, IMO, for almost all of Season 4.

But I don't hate Sam. I never have. It was just really bad writing, IMO. Sam's journey to the point where he was willing to fall for Ruby's tricks was severely neglected in the storytelling. And, FOR ME, a few scenes in IKWYDLS was insufficient.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-27 01:11
Quote:
I have read many nice therories on why Sam drank Ruby's blood, but unfortunately, we never got to see anything on screen to explain why he made this decision. I think this was a huge mistake. They didn't allow us to relate to Sam or understand his motives. Honestly, most of us make up reasons why Sam drank her blood or how she introduced it into the relationship, but we don't know.
You said it better than me.

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I have a problem w/not knowing. I know some have said they don't need to see everything, but in this instance, I did. It was very hard for me to reconcile in my mind b/c I couldn't come up w/a legit reason for anything Sam did in Season 4. None of it made sense to me. Depression didn't answer it. Guilt didn't answer it. Revenge didn't answer it.
In this I'm a bit more flexible. Sometimes, a hint is enough for me BUT in this matter what we saw Sam did in IKWYDLS is just he was drunk, meeting Ruby, not shown that he was hostile at her because she had deceived him in regards to “Saving Dean” lies but only because she possessed a living. Then, the sex scene. (Ruby was possessing a dead body, so, double ewww) Why that scene was put there I don’t even know. Does that showing Sam cannot get a living human girl, and opted to have it with a demon? I don’t get it. If they wanted to show that Sam began to descend to darkside (by having a go at a demon) that didn’t have a base at all. What happened to Sam from the end of NRFTW to IKWYDLS, which presumably only happened in 2 months since it was told in flashback? (Perhaps others can straighten me out in the timeline)

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So, I, personally, needed to see how Ruby introduced the DB, why Sam chose to do it, what he was thinking he'd accomplish by it, etc. We got none of that b/c Kripke wanted to "surprise" the audience.
Yes, again I agree. Lot’s of people said that S4 is the best in writing but the way they handled Sam’s plotline is vague at best.

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We had Sam making the most idiotic, IMO, of decisions in Season 4 all b/c Kripke wanted to continue the Ruby story he didn't get to complete in the 3rd season. I could understand a Sam willing to go dark or become a monster to save his brother from an eternity in Hell. I don't quite understand a Sam willing to go dark or become a monster when his brother is alive, healthy, and for the most part, well. It doesn't track in my mind.
Ditto. I was digesting this many times trying to find a plausible reason why … One thing that come to mind because Ruby probably said that Lilith is out there to kill Dean. Well, ok … that’s sort of makes sense… but it’s just in my imagination since we’re not shown that. Not even in passing not even a hint in dialogue.

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Like I said, I loved Season 4 when it aired. I still enjoy that season but I must admit that, in retrospect, Sam's character was done quite a disservice w/that season. Everything he did was shrouded in mystery. He was aligned w/evil and demons, and it was really hard to support his actions. He was drinking demon blood and sleeping w/a demon. Who could get behind that or support that as positive actions to take?

I don't have a problem w/Sam making mistakes. I would have been fine w/Sam "going darkside" on his own. I just feel Ruby was unneccessary after Season 3. I just don't see the Sam I watched for three years listening to Ruby in Season 4 no matter how depressed he was. She had lied to him, and he knew that in NRFTW. Why would he even speak to her again? And since Kripke didn't bother to tell that part of the story AND I couldn't come up w/a good reason for it, Sam, essentially, behaved like a moron, IMO, for almost all of Season 4.
Wow… lala2 it’s like you read my mind, girl! Sam’s reasoning is weak. Sam is supposed to be smart. He has the power of deductive reasoning in solving a case and had used it in previous seasons. But, alas the writer choose to write Dean’s dialogue like this “Well, now the smarter brother is back.” I know it’s just brotherly banter. I’m not taking Dean’s jab as a jab to Sam’s intelligent personally. BUT, again, but in lieu of the next episodes when they showed Sam’s bad decisions I can’t help but wonder perhaps, perhaps, this is what the writer’s mean in putting that jab in LR that somehow between NRFTW and the start of S4 Sam lost his brain somewhere.

Yes, the knife kills people and Sam’s power killed the demon not the possessed human. I still think Sam can get strong WITHOUT drinking demon blood. That had been proven by Ava and Ava was not the strongest of them all. IF Sam smart he could deduct from that fact and use his research ability, maybe interrogating demons to get the rest of information. Torture Ruby, by all mean, please. She’s wearing a dead meatsuit anyway. When Ruby start suggesting DB Sam should get suspicious and, I don’t know, get a drop on her, tied her to a chair, torture her for more info since she claim to be oh-so-knowledgeable on the matter. She might be not telling but hey, I’d be happy to see it.


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But I don't hate Sam. I never have. It was just really bad writing, IMO. Sam's journey to the point where he was willing to fall for Ruby's tricks was severely neglected in the storytelling. And, FOR ME, a few scenes in IKWYDLS was insufficient.
Yes. I love Sam. He had many good qualities but somehow the writers forget that. That’s why I feel the need to defend his character.

Again, Sam is just a character and it’s the writer’s responsibility to take care of his characterizatio n. They’re the only ones who get to write Sam. None of us, even though how much we love Sam, get to write him. Although, I know lot’s of fanfic writers who wrote a better Sam. This is just my opinion.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 08:17
Ava gained her power after turning dark after flipping the switch off..so Sam should flip his switch off and be "smart"..I for one am glad Sam did not do that
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 08:40
I could not spot Ruby's lies till the scene in on the head of the pin (if the name is wrong it is the episode where Sam goes all hulk on alistair),that too because they showed Ruby's face when Sam was drinking blood and if i was in Sam's place i would not have noticed it then too.
I am with Tim in the fact that i don't think it is moronic to partner with Demons and also that i understand Sam's motivations about why he did what he did.The responsibility of showing that properly was with the showrunners and they failed.In the episode the man who could be the king they did with Cas what they should have done with Sam too.Do i grudge them giving Cas the platform what they did not give Sam ?No...but i think they should have given Sam the same opportunity..wh at they did with Sam in i know what you did last summer was too little too late.Show runners have the ability to make majority of the viewers sympathetic or hate any character (main or supporting) ,they did the former in cas's case and latter in case of Sam's ..at least from my side i understand why Sam did what he did ..So i know sam was not a moron when he drank Demon blood...At that moment he tried everything there was to try the good way (whereas Dean was flippant (or at least appeared) about himself going to hell Sam was not ...he was trying to break Dean's deal ...he does not have a life he can go back to after Dean's death..Bobby himself was incapable to reach out to Sam ( and i don't think Bobby could as i belong to the group who believe Sam was not as close to Bobby at that moment as Dean was)...all he had was despair till ruby appeared and then revenge...
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-28 01:43
Oddly enough, somehow ever since MM (episode in which they met a coven of witches in S3) I already have a bad feeling with Ruby and it's blond Ruby not brunette, yet.

So, yes I could smell something rotten in Ruby's character even since that episode. In the end when Dean cornered Ruby and asked her if there really a way to save him from hell and Ruby said no, at that time I fully distrust her.

I don't know. I can smell her lies. I knew that she lied when she said she still remembered being human that she only help them because she wanted Sam to win against Lilith. Something didn't add up at the time and I kept screaming at Sam on screen "Don't trust her, Sam" too bad Sam didn't hear me :D hehehe ...

Ruby was a demon worshiper when she was alive, a witch. I did not trust her ever since that episode.

Oh and about Bobby. I think it's odd that if Bobby was incapable of reaching out to Sam but a demon can. This is Bobby, the boys knew him from they were kids and on the other side, a demon who they only met a year ago, that Bobby and probably other hunters repeatedly told them that Demon lies. I'm not sure how to take on that way of storytelling. I'm afraid of the implication that arises from that.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-28 12:49
When Ruby first appeared i did not trust her but that was because she was a Demon not something to do with Ruby specifically..H er actions and the way she was with Sam and Dean made me trust her mostly not completely..but then again i was not desperate to save my brother...Bobby could not get through to Sam because he called Sam that is it he did not hound Sam like Ruby did and i am sure that if Ruby had tried to reach Sam the way like Bobby did she would have met the same treatment
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-28 13:03
They may show about their teenage years again...at least i will not base my opinions about Sam and Dean on that isolated event we were shown...
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 08:41
Quote:
“You lied to me. And all of that shit you said about saving Dean in the end is your way to get close to me, right? Dean said that you said there’s no way to save him. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
Sam and Dean did not go along with Ruby's plan if i remember right they trapped Ruby took her knife and went along with their half baked plans and left Ruby there so she could be possessed by lilith...That is why Sam who had till now tried everything other than trusting Ruby fully did that...Quote:
“I will have my revenge but not in your way. Drinking your demonic blood? You’ll turn me to darkside? Do you think I’m that stupid? (apparently Sam is stupid, the writer wrote him that way)
He tried his way and he went no where ..(also please do not exclude the year Sam struggled to get Dean out of the Deal.this where he tried it his way).He has tried..Also Sam did not turn darkside ...If Sam had turned darkside he would be like Ava..She gained power by switching off her humanity and going Darkside which was irreversible and Sam gained power by drinking blood which after the blood ran its course he lost the power..Sam was not written stupid that is all on you. many of us did not find Sam stupid so it is what you inferred ..i don't think there is any proof that writers made him stupid then
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 12:58
Tidbits like the siren's spell? The siren's spell, Dr's whammy in Asylum and their argument in Scarecrow are the ONLY times (2 of them from the first season and 2 Dean was saying some pretty mean things himself) I remember Sam saying anything really mean to Dean (I can't say the same of Dean). They both give each other a hard time and harass each other, but their brothers that is what siblings do. I completely harass all my brothers and my sister and my nieces and nephew and they definitely give as good as they get. If Dean was some little meek guy, who doesn't stand up for himself that would be one thing, but Dean's as likely to be the harasser and the harassee.

I don't think Sam sees Dean as dumb at all. Yeah at times has looked surprised when Dean does research or read something. But Dean has said himself that hates research and he was too busy having sex in high school to read. And like Painted Wolf quoted below Sam's actually said he has looked up to Dean and tried to be like him since he was 4. That's way more than Dean has ever said. And Sam has always been much more willing to listen to Dean's opinion than vice versa.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 13:28
To be honest, it's the general attitude for me, the vibe if you will.

In Seasons 1 and 2 I liked Sam's character well enough but there were lots of times (not just with Dean) when I went "oh boy, if you gave me that smug tone/look, I'd feel compelled to smack the crap out of you". It was my main stickling point with the character.

Season 4 took that to new heights, Season 5 didn't adress it in any way I could get behind.

As for "looking up to Dean", it's not what I got from the flachbacks. I think in that situation and trying to reach his brother, adult!Sam looked through rose-tinted glasses.

I know for most it's all but it was a spell/mindwhamm y/whatnot but I see these occurences more like someone who only tells you how they really feel while drunk. Sober, they feel bad about it and don't want to hurt your feelings but it's of course still there.

And Dean also has given Sam a "I admired you" speech in Scarecrow as well.

In terms of how apparently Dean is so much meaner/worse, again, it's the vibe. The brothers Salvatore on Vampire Diaries have done and said some reprehensible things to each other, way more than either brother Winchester ever did. At times, I was convinced they downright hated each others guts but I didn't question their respect for each other.

I can't explain it any differently than that.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-06-19 08:01
Sasha, I'd just like to know what flashbacks you're talking about?
I don't see why Sam would have ever told Dean he looked up to him if it wasn't true. He could have just as easily made that argument without saying that. Maybe that's just the way I take it, but why would you even admit something like that if you didn't mean it? And if Sam has such a low opinion of Dean, why would he have even tried to reach Dean in the first place, and beg him to be his brother again? It doesn't make sense to me in any way other than he actually meant what he said.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 12:57
I meant the flashbacks in ASS (an apt acronym for an episode if there ever was one) because before that in the flashbacks they were both too young. However if in that one it was supposed to look like "looking up to Dean", I think me and the writers have the opposite definition of what that means. Of course, they went out of their way to write Teen!Dean as a complete loser in this one.

And if Sam has such a low opinion of Dean, why would he have even tried to reach Dean in the first place, and beg him to be his brother again?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Sam thinks Dean is the lowest piece of filfth imaginable, just that he believes him clearly inferior to him, Sam. As for why he would want him around? Because he loves him. I don't question that, I just don't think it goes hand in hand with respect in the way I think someone should be respected.

There is a significant distinction in my eyes.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 13:56
How was Sam mean to Dean in the flashbacks of ASS? That girl Donna? was mean to him, but there was no indication that Sam even knew about that. I haven't watched that episode in a little while but I have watched several times. I can't of anything Sam did that show he had no respect for Dean.

Again I think were just going to have to agree to disagree. You have interpreted Sam's character and personality and actions so differently than I have, I don't see us coming to a meeting of the minds.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 14:26
I didn't say he was mean, I just don't think he was even remotely portrayed as someone who looked up to his brother.

There is a wide variety of ways to interact with people. I'd say I'm not "mean" to most people in my life but I'm not looking up to a lot of them either. The middle ground or neither/in-betw een is the largest part IMO.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-19 14:05
With respect again Sasha but there was nothing Sam did in ASS you have a issue with how Dean was written that was down to the writers not Sam.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 14:23
I said it was both, yes, 1) I have an issue with how Dean was written and 2) I don't think young Sam in that episode was shown to be "looking up at Dean".

I remember watching that episode, remembering that speech of "always looking up to you" and bursting out laughing.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 15:29
I'm still not getting what Sam did to Dean at all that episode. He was a mildly moody teen. He wasn't worshipful of Dean I guess. But show me a worshipful teen (of something that isn't hormonal in nature) and all I can think of is "Just Say No."

I looked up to my sister but I was bitchy as hell to her most of the time at that age. Same with my dad.

There's a Mark Twain quote that I think of when I want to knock one of my nieces or nephew up side the head. "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." Slightly off topic but it always makes me laugh.

I guess my point is that just because someone, esp a teen, is not following someone around and hanging on their every word, does not mean they don't respect and admire that person or that they're not processing the info.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 15:57
There's a Mark Twain quote that I think of when I want to knock one of my nieces or nephew up side the head. "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." Slightly off topic but it always makes me laugh.

And if that boy said "I always looked up to you, dad", I would also chortle in disbelief because obviously as a teen he didn't.

Which isn't a big deal if a teenager doesn't but then making a speech later on how you always, always looked up to a person and wanted to be just like them? I'd say "oh, come on, remember reality as it was".
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-19 16:27
I'm guessing the part you had problems with was a line when Sam's friend says about Dean: "He's cool." And Sam responds, "Yeah. He thinks so."

To me that just made me laugh. They're teens, and that's such a kid way to respond.

There's another couple of back-to-back scenes in the episode in which the two are introduced to their respective classes. Their teachers ask each of them if there is something they would like to say, and Dean responds, "Not really sweetheart." Sam responds "Not really." Young Sam is mimicking Dean's mannerisms! That's a sign that despite what he says, he looks up to his big brother.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-19 16:49
I agree.
Sam was a teenager we have all been one of those .I dont believe he did anything wrong in that episode and never will
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 16:32
Okay, its Twain he was being flippant, it was meant to be funny. But the point I was trying to make was teenagers that are generally obnoxious(altho ugh from I saw Sam was less obnoxious than most), if a teen is telling you how much he loves and respects you, then he's wanting to borrow your car. But that does not mean they don't love, respect and admire you. It does not mean they don't pattern a lot of their behavior from your actions. Is that truly what you're basing your opinion of Sam on?
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-20 11:38
Is that truly what you're basing your opinion of Sam on?

On that flashback? No. I wasn't particularly a fan of it but there were about 3.5 years of show that came before it and the character was well established at this point.

I'm basing my opinion on his persona, as it comes across to me, in the show as a whole. Just as I do Dean. And while Dean has a personality that would also rub me wrong in some ways, it is simply much more so with Sam. Combined with the writing choices that have been made for either character, what they have "gotten" in terms of story, how they were writting in it and also how they are performed, I come down in Dean's favour whereas Sam has become a character that will probably always rub me the wrong way big time. Unless they made seriously different writing choices than in the last three years and I realistically don't expect that.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-20 17:18
So you just don't like Sam?

That's fine and good to know.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-20 18:34
Last 3 years.So you like him before the DB? Because I definitely don't get that impression. I won't ask what your problem over the with him have been over the last three years, because I truly do not understand your take on the guy. But he is one of only TWO leads, so I seriously doubt he's going anywhere so I guess you'll just have to do a lot of fast forwarding. Especially since Dean might end up being a little emotional after surviving purgatory and you said you don't like that either. I'd stock up on remote control batteries if I were you.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-20 19:21
Hahaha :-)

I feel like the Sam Sasha sees is vey manipulative, deceptive, sociopathic, and all-aroudn awful person. We clearly see Sam differently so there's no point, IMO, in discussing Sam.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-20 22:41
To be specific these are adjectives I would use for Sam: Heroic, gentle, kind, empathetic, caring, loving, lost, brave, soft, hard-working, committed, serious, intense, persistent! :-)
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-22 11:27
Jesus, I don't think I characterized him like that. Mainly, I think he has a smug side that is simply off-putting for me. And I believe in terms of the show he is written as way too Mary Sue-ish for my tastes which doesn't help and often comes at the expense of the writing for Dean. Which really doesn't help.

But I don't consider him a sociopath. Holmes in the BBC show Sherlock is way more of a sociopath for example.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 10:20
Sam getting to show his smarts over Dean or being right about something over Dean doesnt make hims smug. He has never come across as smug about anything or over anyone.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 14:01
Different strokes then. It was my main complaint about Sam right from the start. At times I found it insufferable even in the early Seasons.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-28 04:11
I agree ..just because he is smart does not mean he is smug
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-22 11:22
So you like him before the DB?

He would never have been a fave character of mine but I was perfectly okay with him in the early years.

As for fastforwarding, no prob, have been doing that a lot with this show in the last few years.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 10:24
Thats OK Dean rubs me the wrong way, he comes across as needy, self righteous, unfunny, sometimes ignorant, shallow, whiny.

Personally I'm not a Dean fan but I do recognise the good things in him like loyalty, loving, caring, heroic. Same as I see Sam.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 14:06
I do believe Sam has good qualities. For example I consider him brave and heroic. He is not someone who walks by or looks away when someone else screams for help - which is something most people simply are not cut out for.

However I have a big problem with what is to me extreme Mary Sue writing for the character. I feel like I get beat over the head with how wonderful and perfect he is at everything and how every single mistake he ever made is someone else's fault or for supernatural reason he couldn't control.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 15:12
Really then what was the point of Sam waiting for Dean's forgiveness.Dea n must have just said oh Sam Ruby is to blame so you are excused .Dean did not forgive Sam or retconned his part in rising Lucifer..Atleas t i don't give "credit" to others for Sam's mistakes but at the same time i do not give Sam undeserved "credit" also...
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 15:58
Dean must have just said oh Sam Ruby is to blame so you are excused

As it was later established Dean was to blame for being bossy and mean - so Sam waiting for forgiveness was martyrdom and Dean not giving it made him even "meaner" - and had to repent his bad, bad ways. Sam graciously accepted it and being right in that he was the one and only who could save the world. And if Dean had fallen in line like a good flunky during Season 4, everything would have been alright.

Meanwhile as gets pointed out over and over when Dean says "mean" things and punches Sam he is not under the influence or possessed or whatnot that would make it "not really him". When HE made the deal and went to hell, it was purely selfish. When Sam went to hell, it was heroic and altruistic to save the world. Dean's hell was also fun and happy compared to Sam's. And so on and so forth.

Don't get me wrong, I think the writing for either characte sucks but Sue-dom is just a tad bit more horrible to me than whatever Dean gets.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-27 22:49
Quote:
I feel like I get beat over the head with how wonderful and perfect he is at everything and how every single mistake he ever made is someone else's fault or for supernatural reason he couldn't control.
I never felt this about the Sam's character. He keeps making mistakes, more than Dean, and if it is shown that it is with good intentions - ofcourse! He is one of the heroes of the show. And if people make mistakes, even for good intentions, it doesn't redeem them. The end does not justify the means. Like one of the characters told Sam - the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Overall, I like the writing for the show and I am not a Sam or a Dean fan. I love them both equally, for different reasons.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-28 12:37
He keeps making mistakes, more than Dean, and if it is shown that it is with good intentions - ofcourse! He is one of the heroes of the show.

And Dean's mistakes?

I'll leave the deal out of the debate because even though that was the one and only time I personally hated the character for something and didn't have the slightest smidgen of sympathy for him, I'll allow that it has been presented with enough backstory to probably elicit sympathy.

However since then, where have Dean's "excuses" and "justifications " have been? The only "reason" he might have been given is being generally depressed. And that alone gets him critized as an irritating whiner who needs to get over it already. So I hardly call it being given a sympathetic reason.

For Sam, I can not name you a single mistake or flaw of his own the show that I didn't feel the narrative attributed to someone or something else.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-28 13:45
Quote:
And that alone gets him critized as an irritating whiner who needs to get over it already.
I know that different people interpret scenes differently and so I can give you only my take on Dean's depression. I never once thought of him as whining or that he needed to get over it. In fact my heart went out for him, because of the load of responsibility he has carried on his shoulders ever since he was a child. He grew up too quickly and swallowed all the pain. That is what SPN showed me and I have complete empathy with Dean. In fact I wanted it all to be brought to a head, so we could see exactly what was going on. I wanted Dean to talk about his heavy heart. Maybe one day he will but at least in Season 7 they didn't show it.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-28 13:51
Yes Dean was bossy but that does not mean he is responsible for Sam starting apocalypse..he is partly responsible for driving Sam to Ruby not for Sam starting apocalypse..Sam accepted he can stop apocalypse with minimum casualties..min imum casualties is and was important ..They could have stopped apocalypse by Dean also saying yes but the Damage along with that would be huge
ebony
# ebony 2012-09-01 22:38
Edited - disrespect to other posters.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-09-01 23:09
People see things through different lenses. This is a thread that has been filled with Sam bashing, but that doesn't bother you one little bit, only if Dean is criticized.

I love both boys. I love Sam a little more, if only because so many people decide to repeat over and over how horrible he is, so he needs more defending. But even if someone doesn't care for Dean, that is how they see the show. This isn't the Dean show, no matter how much people want it to be. It is a show about Dean AND Sam. When it stops being that, I will leave. Until then how can you not be a fan of whichever brother is not really appropriate. People like who they like.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 18:22
So b/c in ONE episode Sam wasn't shown to be overtly admiring his brother than means he lied in Fresh Blood? Is that it?

You say you don't think Sam is manipulative or sociopathic but he has to be w/the way you view him. Everything he says is not to be trusted or believed. He deceives and manipulates. No wonder you don't like the character.

You and I see him very differently - so differently that we may as well just part ways.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-20 11:22
So b/c in ONE episode Sam wasn't shown to be overtly admiring his brother than means he lied in Fresh Blood?

I don't think he was shown as "overtly admiring" of his brother in ANY episode. I don't make it all about ASS.

However, since that speech in Fresh Blood harkened back a lot to their growing up, I brought up the flashbacks as an example on how I felt the show was "tell" vs. "show" for me.

Everything he says is not to be trusted or believed. He deceives and manipulates.

I didn't say I found his speech in Fresh Blood willfully deceitful. I genuinely don't think he lied for the hell of it. In fact I phrased it as "looking back with rose-tinted glasses".

In that moment, he wanted to make a point and for me this sentiment and how he came across was no different than say most people only saying nice things about deseases family members. Because that is what they (chose to) remember. You don't remember (or dwell) on all the moments you think that was a jerk. Probably not even if you hated them and butted heads with them most of the time. After a loved one's death, people often re-write history in their minds and everything suddenly was Lollypopland.

That is what I think, in essence, Sam was doing.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-06-20 10:01
I understand what you're saying Sasha, but the point of the flashbacks in ASS, was not to show how Sam looked up to Dean. What Sam said in Fresh Blood has absolutely no bearing on what he was doing in ASS, in my opinion. Besides, they were at that school for like what, 3 weeks? That's a very small paragraph in the story of their childhood and their lives up until the point that we met them in the Pilot. Just becasue we never saw a specific occurrence of Sam "looking up to Dean" in one flashback, I can't just assume that Sam never looked up to Dean.
I don't know. I've been reading a lot of comments here lately about how Sam supposedly sees his brother as some kind of dumber, second class human, and doesn't respect him and I'm afraid that's not the way I've ever seen it. Yes, he teases, and yes he's said some hurtful things, but he's not the only one guilty in that regard.
I keep going back to what happened when Sam told Dean his plan to say yes to Lucifer. Dean basically said "no freaking way" and Sam said "ok". He backed down, and I can't remember them even mentioning again until Dean gave Sam his blessing to do it. If Sam didn't respect Dean or his opinion, he wouldn't have even dicussed it with Dean, just went and done it. At least, that's the way I see it
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-20 11:30
That's a very small paragraph in the story of their childhood and their lives up until the point that we met them in the Pilot. Just becasue we never saw a specific occurrence of Sam "looking up to Dean" in one flashback, I can't just assume that Sam never looked up to Dean.

I know the flashbacks are small blurbs of their lifes and I don't expect anyone was even remembering that speech in the writing of that (or any other) episode.

However, that is "tell" vs. "show" for me. This being a fictional world where you only got to see glimpses and I already have a hard time genuinely being convinced of what a character says in terms of show, if I never see it outrightly shown, then the narrative failed to convince me overall.

If Dean had said he always liked flirting growing up or Sam had said he always liked reading growing up and yet no flashback ever had shown them do it, I still wouldn't have questioned the validity of either statement because it's well enough established as it is.

When Sam said he looked up to his brother and wanted to be just like him, I, like I said, assumed he mostly in that moment was viewing the past with seriously rose-tinted glasses. I also assumed that if that ever really DID take place, then it was when Sam was quite young and he grew out of it.

Then when I watched ASS, my assessment was that he had grown out of it clearly by the time he was 14 already.

So the speech was in some way hyperbolic. Which isn't even something unusual considering why and when he said it. Most people would probably use hyperbole.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-20 11:38
No I would say Sasha he was raw in his feelings looked at Dean who had placed this deal on him .Knew time was running out and just wanted his brother back rather than the distance Dean was creating.

We can all be guilty of rose tinted glasses but in this instance it was a case of what you saw is exactly what you got nothing more nothing less .I know very well the glasses you see Sam through but some scenes dont need any more put on them than exactly what that scene is saying.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-20 13:32
but in this instance it was a case of what you saw is exactly what you got nothing more nothing less

For you. Not for me. I don't have to have the same reactions and opinions about scenes. And neither one of our respective viewpoints is undisputed fact.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 09:03
Exactly he might have grown out of it ..so he did look upto Dean
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 10:26
We never really saw any evidence of Dean admiring Sam either, so I guess we can just label that as bullshit too?!
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 14:13
I saw plenty evidence. Dean thought of Sam as some saint in the first few Seasons. And he did remark to others on stuff he was proud of Sam for. I can not remember Sam saying something complimentary about Dean to someone else.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 09:00
Yes ..I was laughing my ass off when i heard Dean Say he admired Sam..what a joke...Dean was then and also when he grew up a womanizer. So you not happy they were consistent in (1) and non consistent (according to you) in (2)
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 10:31
I dint think they did a bad job with teen Dean at all, he was exactly how I though a teen Dean should be. He was smug, a smartass, a hot head, a womanizer. He loved and cared about his brother, he admired his father, he hated school. These are all things we know to be true of Dean, we also have seen Dean grow beyond alot of these charactistics over the series.

I honestly get the impression that a lot of people didnt like who Dean was back then and just cant admit it so they blame the writers for getting the characteristics wrong.

I liked teen Dean, he was realistic. Dean but also a teenager.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 13:58
I honestly get the impression that a lot of people didnt like who Dean was back then and just cant admit it so they blame the writers for getting the characteristics wrong.

I didn't think he was a pathetic loser who yelled "I'm a hero" all over the place because of course in all his life growing up, moving around and always being the new kid, he had NEVER before encountered being mocked and ridiculed.

It has also been established that at the point of ASS he had made his choice somewhat on the hunting life. And furthermore it has been established that he was both more mature in some areas than his age while in others more immature. Curiously I ONLY saw the latter in this episode, with no maturity whatsoever to speak of. The kid in both the Christmas ep as well as the Shtriga ep came off ten times the guy teen!Dean was. And the progression shouldn't have been quite this backwards.

I'll allow for some acting pitfalls, though. The actor tried but Dean on paper can often comes across as a shallow, one-dimensional jerk and I felt Jensen's forté lies in softening that writing, make the character seem a lot deeper. Brock Kelly copied some mannerisms but he couldn't do that.

As for the writing with the teen versions, they wanted to tell a simplistic story that started off in a certain place and ended with Dean the zero (getting his comeuppance) and Sam the hero. So nope, I don't consider it particularly good writing.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-27 14:29
I personally saw ASS as rife with stereotypical teen storylines--qui et shy new kid who learns to stand up for himself, "cool" older brother who isn't really, good new student no one seems to recognize except the compassionate English teacher, teacher who encourages poor student that he can reach farther than he believes, bad boy and the good girl, good girl puts the bad boy in his place, fat girl bullied by the popular blond cheerleader-esq ue type, and on and on and on. It was really quite eye-roll-worthy .

The only trope they managed to subvert was having the bully become the bullied and not play it for laughs. That might have been the most successful moment of the episode for me--recognizing that bullies are sometimes people with their own issues, not just cardboard cut-outs labeled villain.

Like Sasha, I find it very hard to believe that D & L weren't writing a distinct contrast in how Sam and Dean were ultimately viewed within their flashbacks. Juxtaposing Dean yelling in the hallway (further agreed that the Dean from AVSC was shown to be more level-headed and mature) with Sam marching proudly down the hallway having just beaten his nemesis--if they weren't making a statement then they might must make them completely unaware of what they're writing.

Granted, Brock Kelly didn't have the rascal charm that Jensen can put in a line to turn it from jerk to Dean, but I don't think that excuses the writing completely.

In my view, this was an episode that was meant to make a statement, and if they intended to give us cliches showing the brothers in divergent lights they were successful. If they didn't intend that, then they failed hard. But again, perception varies, so others might have seen it differently.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 14:17
he was exactly how I though a teen Dean should be.

In a comment further above you say you aren't a fan of the character and list all the negative attributes you see in him so to be honest I'm not surprised you consider a total loser version of him accurate either.

But just because other people see it differently doesn't mean they don't want to see the reality of how sucky the character is. I could say the same about fans of other characters.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 15:50
Quote:
I'm not surprised you consider a total loser version of him accurate either.
Do you consider it accurate? If not will it not contradictQuote:
But just because other people see it differently doesn't mean they don't want to see the reality of how sucky the character is.
If it is the reality is it not accurate?
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 16:57
Do you consider it accurate?

Do I consider what accurate? The Teen!Dean as presented in ASS? Nope. I don't believe "total loser" does the character justice, teen version or not.

As for the "reality" part, I meant to put that in quotes, like this. I wanted to express other people don't have to buy into the so-called "reality" of that depiction.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-28 00:13
How do you know it does not do Dean justice?Dean has been a womanizer from the beginning of the show so did not come as surprise..and for Dean being defensive when the girl called him out on what he did well that was the first time on the show till then when a girl called him out on that so yeah you may not find it accurate but it was only that what happened in that school..Just one episode cannot tell how Dean's teen years were or Sam's for that matter...
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-28 12:30
Just one episode cannot tell how Dean's teen years were or Sam's for that matter...

In terms of it being a TV show, they only give us glimpses of their lifes, choosing what they are going to show. And this might be the only depiction of their teen years we'll ever get. So of course it stands as some template for "how it's been back then".

If we had other flashback that showed a more well-rounded picture and in which teen!Dean was allowed some positive traits - unless you consider it accurate he didn't/doesn't have them - the picture wouldn't be quite so one-sidedly bad.
ebony
# ebony 2012-09-01 22:56
well your wrong! everyone likes dean and really the adult is better than teen dean !
Ardeospina
# Ardeospina 2012-09-02 09:32
Admin warning!

Ebony, you're walking a fine line here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and no one is ever wrong about it. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean your opinion is right and someone else's is wrong. Please be respectful. Several of your comments have already been edited, so you need to tread carefully here.

Ardeospina
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-18 14:00
You said it Kelly! The kind of stuff I say to my brother! And he to me! Once my husband (who is an only child) asked me "How can you talk like that and be fine with each other!" But yeah, it all depends on the relationship. The closer you are, the more directness you can get away with because you know that the other loves and respects you whatever you say! There is total trust. Sure, I know some people who are more formal with their siblings, but well, that's their relationship. I am happy with mine. A brother who I can depend on through thick and thin and who will always be there for me.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-18 14:02
I don't think Sam sees Dean as dumb either. I think they tease each other about book-smarts. Dean calls Sam a geek, and Sam teases Dean for cutting classes or not having read things he should have, but that's just brotherly banter poking fun at each other for their differences. When it comes to what matters - being able to think their way out of a tight situation - I can't think of an example when either Sam or Dean seemed to not respect the other.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 10:33
Right. They've both displayed thier own smarts over the years and they've also shown that they're smarter when they put their heads together.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-18 13:46
Let me argue another way. I think it is possible to respect someone even if one think he/she is dumber. Because the other may have something one doesn't. I really doubt that two family members are equal in all characteristics . For example even in the case of parent and child, the grown-up child may realise that he is smarter and more intelligent than the parent either due to an education or circumstances or whatever. This does not automatically mean that the child disrespects the parent, even if he says it either in jest or in anger. Two siblings too may not be equal in education and smartness and one may rib the other for not being that smart, and the other may find something else to rib the other about. Disrespect is a big word and I do not see it between Sam and Dean. Yes, they are rude to each other sometime. What the heck! So what!
They are brothers!
This does not mean that I agree with your belief that Sam thinks that Dean is dumber or that Dean is actually dumber. That is something which I really don't know the answer to.
If Sam has mocked Dean for being dumb a couple of times, that does not necessarily mean he disrespects Dean or actually thinks he is dumb (intelligence is of different kinds). And like Sharon says Dean has also said some things which were a little mean. That doesn't mean that Dean does not respect Sam.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-18 13:53
I think it is possible to respect someone even if one think he/she is dumber.

Honestly, I don't. If I seriously think of someone as dumb - and I don't mean educated here or well-read or anything, that doesn't meassure intelligence at all - then I have little to no respect for them.

In fact, someone who believes and acts that education does equal intelligence and that accumulated knowledge makes them smarter than someone because of that? That to me is a sign of utter dumbness and I have no respect whatsoever for them.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-18 14:12
What we are talking about here is the education part and I made that clear when I gave the example of the parent and child. And Sam went to college whereas Dean did not, so again Sam makes remarks about Dean's reading. So it is education that is being referred to and the world "dumb" was used because you brought it up. The idea that Sam thought that Dean was dumb never even occurred to me while I was watching Supernatural. In fact, I thought it was you who was equating the two, but well you are not so good, I was mistaken.
In any case even if someone is truly dumb I can respect them because what I respect in people the most is bravery and humanity.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-18 14:14
I think my punctuation wasn't right there. This is the correct sentence:
"In fact, I thought it was you who was equating the two, but well, you are not, so good, I was mistaken."
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 17:42
My feeling is that they are both smart in different ways; Sam's more book smart, Dean's more street smart so to speak. Both smarts are equally valid and equally valuable for their line of work. However, this season made them both out to be damned near helpless without Bobby or Cas. I want them to rely on eachother again.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-18 18:52
Actually I'd argue that Sam is pretty street smart too. He grew up in the hunter life too. The balance comes in more that Sam is more intellectual and achievement oriented whereas Dean is more family oriented. Sam questions things, but Dean is the heart of the family and keeps them together.
Allie111
# Allie111 2012-06-18 22:15
Quote:
Actually I'd argue that Sam is pretty street smart too. He grew up in the hunter life too. The balance comes in more that Sam is more intellectual and achievement oriented whereas Dean is more family oriented. Sam questions things, but Dean is the heart of the family and keeps them together.
This right here exemplifies a huge issue I have with the show. Sam can have his own niche as the brilliant, college educated research geek of the two brothers. He's had his own unique storyline as the Chosen One who was the only one who could stop Lucifer by hurling himself into the Cage (taking along another powerful archangel for good measure) and save the world. Sam was tortured there more than any other human being in existence, surpassing even Dean's own hell "tour of Graceland." He came back soulless, was re-souled, and had another entire season with major soul/PTSD issues.

But god forbid anyone ever suggest Dean can do anything better than Sam- whether it be have street smarts, be more of a leader or be a better hunter. Sam already has such a unique place on the show- why should Dean's only unique contribution be limited to "he's more family oriented?" While that's important, this is a show about 2 hunters of the supernatural and not just a family melodrama. And it's not supposed to be just "what's Sam's is Sam's" and "what's Dean's is Dean and Sam's." Dean should be better at something- that's just life.

I know it's a little ranty but this is a touchy subject for me.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-18 22:51
Sorry you're so offended by my suggestion that Sam has street smarts too, but the show is what it is. Both Sam and Dean were raised by John to be street-smart hunters, and the fact that Sam spent more time in the library doesn't change that. Personally, I don't see one clearly excelling over the other in any of these characteristics : street smarts, being a leader, or talent as a hunter. They're both very capable in all of these areas.

Yes, I think Dean has been written as being more family-oriented than Sam. And by that, I don't mean that it's his only role in life to take care of his brother. And I don't see being family-oriented as a negative trait. Back in season 1, while Sam and John both were becoming obsessed with revenge, Dean was the one who grounded them and made them realize what they still had. Dean is the one who has had a chance to be a father for a short time (to Ben), something Sam has never experienced. I don't see that as a horrible curse on Dean.
Allie111
# Allie111 2012-06-19 01:13
Of course Sam has street smarts, just like Dean also reads. Neither has a monopoly on those things. But I doubt you'd be thrilled if I suggested Dean is AS intellectually endowed, as good on the research front, or as empathetic with witnesses as Sam. Those have always been seen as Sam's areas. So why should it be a big deal if Dean has his own niche as a hunter- whether it be as more street smarts or more badass or more of a leader or whatever? Double standard much? It stretches credibility that both brothers are going to be exactly equal in all things and if Sam gets recognized for his skills, so should Dean.

Quote:
Yes, I think Dean has been written as being more family-oriented than Sam.
Agreed (and I never said it was a negative trait either.) But that's a personal quality, just like wanting to be independent is for Sam. Those are important parts of what makes the characters who they are. They're not, however, relevant to the discussion of skills needed for hunting.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-19 01:22
You can suggest whatever you want. I just don't see a difference in their hunting skills reflected in the show, so I'll respectfully disagree.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 11:02
I personally think Sam and Dean are equally matched on the hunting front, skills, smarts, experience, leadership. I think its been clearly shown through the series.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-19 07:52
I think Sam is street-smart. He is, very.

But there's something Dean is given that Sam is not: the charm, the social skills. Everybody in the series is attracted to Dean in a way they're not to Sam at all. They're not equal on that, and it's an important skill.

I'm not callling it emotional inteligence, because if they both lack any kind of smartness, that's it. But Dean knows his way around people, and even when he's being a bit obnoxious or rude, most characters are drawn to Dean.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-19 08:34
Quote:

But there's something Dean is given that Sam is not: the charm, the social skills. Everybody in the series is attracted to Dean in a way they're not to Sam at all. They're not equal on that, and it's an important skill.
While I think most of the characters being drawn to Dean is a recent bias some of the current writers have introduced, and wasn't true in the earlier seasons of the series, I agree that Dean has a skill for smoozing people for information. If the two of them walked in a bar for info, Dean would be the more likely to walk out with the info then needed.

I also think Dean is more mechanically talented - not just in keeping the wheels running - but in gerryrigging the EMF reader, and if I remember correctly, coming up with the idea for shooting salt rocks.

But I don't understand why there's such a big need for some people for Dean to be the better hunter, or the leader. Their hunts are such a big part of this show, that if the writers did introduce a significant difference in hunting competence or make one clearly the leader, it would throw off the whole dynamics of this relationship.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-19 20:14
Sam was The Chosen One of the story for virtualy the entire series, IMO-any season that featured Sam's destiny or Lucifer qualifies, because according to the atory we have now, he was The One and Only Lucifer was waitng for and Lucifer wouldn't settle for less. OTOH, Dean, as Michael's "Chosen One", was simply a red herring to keep the Dean fans watching after S3 and 4 so that Kripke could secure his S5-then he proceeded to screw, Dean , Jensen and a great part of the entire Dean fandom out of a satisfactory resolution to the promise he made to bring Dean into the myth-arc(becaus e Jensen "had earned it"m in Kripke's own words) after S3. So for almost 5 out of the 7 seasons, Dean's major role was as the leader as regards the hunt and within the brother's relationship. I kniow that some will not agree with my next statement, but within any team effort(and even within just a team of two)-someone has to have the last word, especially when there are strong differences of opinion as to what the best course of action to take would be; when a decision has to be made and a unanimous choice os not forthcoming-som eone has to decide-that person is the leader-and that person is often the one whom the others on the team deem to be the one who most often has made the right choices AND also(if the team is lucky enough), an individual who is open-minded enough to listen closely and weigh well the thoughts and opinions of those on the team whom HE'S always deemed worthy of listening to, himself. IMO, the natural leader on this show has always been Dean. If they want to make Sam into a leader, such as Dean has been, they will have to actually and entirely remove the Dean character-as he has been written AND acted series-long-fro m the equation because the present character is simply to strong in the leader role to be written as anything other than that. In other words, they would have to separate the brothers on hunts in order to make Sam into the same kind of a leader that Dean is, IMO.
They might also accomplish this another way, though(and again, IMO)-by this time around making DEAN, The Chosen One of the new myth-arc; and the one that the supernatural aspect of the story is most interested in as the centerpiece of the new nefariousness they have planned.
Jensen/Dean should not, IMO, be forced to give up the best and strongest part of Dean's series-long characterizatio n-nor even be forced by the writers to have to share it "equally" with Sam now(and again, IMO), just because Sam's Chosen One storyline has finaly reached it's conclusion and now HE needs something more and new-not unless they compensate Dean and Jensen and many of the Deanfans with an equally as interesting and exciting new storyline-and one that measures up well and fits in well with the main theme of the show and it's title-the supernatural.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-19 21:16
Quote:
within any team effort(and even within just a team of two)-someone has to have the last word, especially when there are strong differences of opinion as to what the best course of action to take would be; when a decision has to be made and a unanimous choice os not forthcoming-someone has to decide-that person is the leader
No - one person does not always get the last word unless you're talking about a strict hierarchical structure such as the military. In a real-life partnership, people learn to compromise. And if they really can't compromise - if it's a matter of conscience for them - then they each do what they have to do. This is true especially in Sam and Dean's world, where they've both been to Hell and know first-hand the consequences poor choices have on the soul.

Quote:
that person is often the one whom the others on the team deem to be the one who most often has made the right choices AND also(if the team is lucky enough), an individual who is open-minded enough to listen closely and weigh well the thoughts and opinions of those on the team whom HE'S always deemed worthy of listening to
The jury is still out on whether this best describes Sam or Dean.

Quote:
If they want to make Sam into a leader, such as Dean has been, they will have to actually and entirely remove the Dean character
And vica-versa, because Sam was written as an independent spirit. To turn him into a passive follower would kill his character. I disagree that Dean has been the leader over the past seven seasons. I think Dean has called the shots for as long as Sam has chosen to let Dean call the shots, but when Sam strongly disagrees, he pushes back or goes off and does his own thing.
Quote:
Jensen/Dean should not, IMO, be forced to give up the best and strongest part of Dean's series-long characterization
I'm hoping for better for Dean than a lifetime of bossing Sam around.

Quote:
nor even be forced by the writers to have to share it "equally" with Sam
... because sharing something equally is just wrong
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-20 11:23
"And vica-versa, because Sam was written as an independent spirit. To turn him into a passive follower would kill his character. I disagree that Dean has been the leader over the past seven seasons. I think Dean has called the shots for as long as Sam has chosen to let Dean call the shots, but when Sam strongly disagrees, he pushes back or goes off and does his own thing."
IMO, the writers message and intent concerning Sam's "going off to do his own thing" w/o letting Dean in on the details of his leaving/absence , is that while it's understandable why he would feel that he had to do that-it's rarely and truly been the "right" thing to do, especially as he IS part of a "team" And I've NEVER seen Sam as a "passive" follower of anyone, not even in The Amy situation, nor did I say that I wanted that for him.
IDK, everything you've said just reinforces my feeling that perhaps the time HAS organically arrived in the storyboard for the brothers to hunt more separately, maybe even with each having a "team" of their own.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-20 11:57
Quote:

IDK, everything you've said just reinforces my feeling that perhaps the time HAS organically arrived in the storyboard for the brothers to hunt more separately, maybe even with each having a "team" of their own.
You know, if they looked miserable hunting together I might agree with you, but they seem to enjoy each other's company most of the time. Personally I think it's healthy that they on occasion split up to do their own things when they have different objectives. They split up, and then they get back together again because the prefer to hunt together.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-21 15:15
Whether they seem to enjoy each others company as much as they used to or even at all any longer is a matter of each individual's perception; for me, that part of it is moot, at this point, becasue they ARE going to be written as hunting together sometimes; and probably more often than not. That being the case, I feel that as long the split-ups are either forced upon them as a result of a baddie being more at fault, or as part of a plan and/or a strategy concerning a hunt-and ARE NO LONGER conceived and executed strictly in an attempt to create the now unnecessary-and also now, yes and IMO, completely overplayed and redundant familial drama-that would work for me, too. And for some reason, I'm actually thinking that Carver WILL wind up doing away with that aspect of the show simply because it's reached its expiration date and then some.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-20 11:42
because sharing something equally is just wrong

It's not wrong. But in that case, I'm hoping Dean's superpowers and mythical Chosen One destiny with his sole big hero moment will come in Season 8 then. Because why should only he share the good stuff?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 09:11
Yes and I hope to get it through Sam's POV .Dean's POV should only be confined to 20 min of one episode ,then i am on board
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 14:32
Dean's POV should only be confined to 20 min of one episode ,

Perfectly fine with me. If he gets the big plot driving arc, the special one and all the badass and wondermuffin scenes? My cup runneth over.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 15:03
My cup runneth over too.Cheers
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 09:15
It certainly doesn't bother me for you to say Dean has good research skills or is as skilled at researching as Sam. I think that's true. We've seen Dean research. I'm sure he did a lot of researching while hunting with John for four years and Sam was away.

Dean doesn't like research. That's the difference between them. Sam likes to research and is good at it so why would Dean do it when he doesn't have to. We see Dean researching and doing his thing in Scarecrow.

We've seen Sam hunting alone and doing a good job of it. We saw that in MS, TBAI, and that Elliott Ness episode this year. And when you speak about hunting, are you referring to the actual "killing" of the monster? IMO, hunting is a two-step process. One must first find out what he/she is hunting and how it can be killed and then kill it. Maybe it's just me but I think both Sam and Dean are skilled in this area. Is your point that Dean is better at killing monsters? I think they both can get the job done. Yes, Dean has saved Sam numerous times over the years but Sam has saved him on occasion as well.

I know you may think I'm trying to begrudge Dean being better than Sam in some way but I'm honestly not. I've never compared their "hunting" skills and both seem competent and capable to me. I personally don't think one is better than the other.

Dean seems more physically strong than Sam. Whenever they fight, Dean manages to take Sam down. The only time Sam "won" was when he was high on DB.

It's just never been a competition for me. I think Dean is an awesome, great character. He's never been presented as "less than" Sam in my opinion. I don't need the show to say Dean is better in some way to find value in the character.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 11:12
Dean has been shown to be pysically stronger than Sam, the only time Sam has hit Dean is when he's been juiced up on something, Dean has hit Sam repeatedly without supernatural force but Sam has never engaged in a fight with him at those times. They have never actually had a true Sam V Dean fight.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-19 00:08
IA-regarding the brothers and their relationship/bo nd-we were told what was wrong with it according to Sam and from Sam's perspective alone in Fallen Idols-and Sam is a very unreliable narrator. Was he supposed to be the writers' mouthpiece in this one? It seems odd to me that ONE of the TWO lead characters' perspectives would be what the writers would use as their point of intent for such a loaded/complex issue as the problems with the brotherS! relationship/bo nd/issues. And if we were supposed to see it as "up to interpretation" wouldn't we need Dean's interpretation of it, too, in order for that to be the case? And yet when have we ever gotten Dean's view of the relationship through actual dialogue as we did with Sam in that episode? Dean told Cas in S5 that he felt "chained to his family" in FtbYam-and yes, through the Ackting there was the unmistakable underlying feeling that he still missed Sam terribly, and that there is something just so terribly wrong about that; and yet, it's never again been addressed through dialogue between the brothers(or really anyone) on the show, and if anything on this show ever required dialogue, it would be this, IMO. Some things they can get away with going w/o it on, but not this-not IMO.
Sam was allowed by the writers to let all of his problems with the relationship out TO DEAN in Fallen Idols. Why would the writers not allow Dean to let it all out TO SAM at some point?-because Dean doesn't do "chick flick moments"or because he has to keep his "game-face" on for Sam? But then when was this issue of Dean's "resolved" if the brothers ARE a-okay again as the PTBs insist that they were and are? Did I miss the moment when Dean felt fully appeciated by Sam for all that he is and has done or was getting ready to do-as we saw for Sam from Dean in Swan Song before Sam took on Lucifer? Did I miss the moment when Dean learned again after his own hell experience that hunting IS truly his calling in life and that doing it makes him feel good, as we saw for Sam in Defending Your Life? Did I miss the moment when Dean learned that his brother wanted him by his side because of his expertise as a hunter, as much as Sam wanted/needed him there as a "safety net" and little else? Was it when Dean learned that his only real destiny and purpose in life and within the storyboard was to not let Sam down as Sam's destiny and real purpose in life was revealed to be the only one who was strong enough and capable enough of saving the world and all of humanity-and THIS was how Kripke's 5 season-long and supposedly always TWO!-lead epic story ended? But no, it didn't end and that and there was the rub, right?
Whatever. Huge disappointment in that ending notwithstanding , that story is over and done with now, replaced by a new two season-long problem and question in this Deanfan's mind-exactly WHEN are these writers going to allow us to finally see DEAN, as well as Sam, become "stronger and better" because of this supposedly re-forged-all-t o-the-better-fo r-BOTH!-brother s bond?
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 13:45
I couldn't agree more that Sam respects and trusts his brother. Let's face it - Sam almost always follows Dean's lead. He looks to Dean for guidance, etc. Sam would not do that if he believed Dean was a moron or something.

And I'm not saying Sam can't make his own decisions or forces Dean to "take care of him." I feel like Dean is a natural leader and often takes the lead. I see nothing wrong w/that. Dean will also follow Sam's lead on occasion. I think both boys treat each other like equal partners and respect each other.

I will never buy into this idea that any teasing or light joking Sam made of Dean reading a classic novel or knowing something is proof that Sam thinks Dean's an idiot. Sam has never thought Dean was stupid. If he did, I highly doubt he'd be following Dean's lead or looking to Dean for advice, guidance, etc. Even Soulless Sam followed Dean's lead. He definitely wouldn't have done that if he thought Dean were a fool or a moron.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 14:37
Whose advice does Sam depend on the most? - Dean's. Yeah they'll call Bobby for info. But Sam relies on Dean's judgment, especially after his own judgment failed so bad in season 4. Not surprisely that's about the time when Dean stopped relying on Sam's judgment. He listens to him and he's not nearly so bossy, but I'm still not sure he really trusts Sam's judgment still. I don't mind him taking the lead a lot, you're right he is a natural leader probably even more so than Sam. But Sam has great leader instincts as well, and I'll admit I would like to see Dean trusting in those and Sam again more fully.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-19 08:17
Honestly I think Sam respects Dean. In fact, Sam could be a leader himself, but he chooses to follow Dean, and I've always thought -well, always being after season 4's mess- there were 2 reasons for that. One, that Sam thinks dean's judgement is better. And two, he knows Dean needs that.

Sam doesn't need to prove he's not a little kid anymore, he's past that now, and is confortable enough to allow Dean to take control.

I know it's just my read on their relationship, and could be interpreted differently.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 09:14
I can actually see that. That's a good point. I don't really mind it Dean take the lead a lot, it's the no argument thing that bugs me. When he just folded in the Mentalist with out much of an explanation, I just wanted to scream.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 17:47
The never read anything into Sam's teasing other than good natured ribbing of his big brother. And I don't think Dean was being deliberately mean to Sam either about the clown thing. He was just being a jerky older brother, not meaning any harm or meaness.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-06-18 09:29
And quote: Season 3, Fresh Blood
Sam: "I've looked up to you since I was four years old, Dean. Studying you, trying to be just like you."

23 years of looking up to someone sounds like a whole lot of respect to me.
lianne
# lianne 2012-06-19 15:40
See, I have always thought this was one of those OOC moments for Sam because outside of this one reference, the show's canon indicates that Sam did NOT want to be a hunter i.e. "just like Dean."

It seems to me that Sam mostly hated the hunting lifestyle Dean so eagerly embraced (see: After School Special) and that was a big reason why Sam left to go to college. He absolutely did not want to follow in Dean's footsteps by staying in the "family business" as Dean did.

Sam's goal was to be a lawyer and IMO, that is definitely NOT trying to be just like Dean.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 16:55
Not wanting to be a hunter, does not mean not wanting to be a man like his brother. Dean is not so shallow that the only thing about him to be admired is his hunting skills. I admire my dad and try to live up to his example that doesn't mean I want to be a teacher. Dean is loyal, kind, smart and funny. He loves generously and puts others before himself. Despite his mistakes, all these things could be used to describe Sam as well. So seems to me he did a good job of being like his big bro.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 17:15
Exactly!

Great post, Kelly! Sam wanting to be like his big brother is not confined to being a hunter. Dean is a really great person w/a big heart. He's brave, fearless. We know Sam saw him as "cool" from ASS. Dean genuinely cares about the safety of virtual strangers. Those are all qualities to admire, IMO.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 12:05
I think the 'wanting to be like his big brother' is also consistent in S6. Although, it's directed to Soulles Sam.
In You Can't handle the Truth Dean said that Sam's not different, he's just more like him.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-16 23:39
I think both Sam and Dean treat each badly at some point. That is what happens between siblings. You can take liberties with siblings that you cannot with friends.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-17 09:31
Well said. What's important is whether they can learn, forgive, and move on.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-17 10:04
The characters have most certainly MOVED ON from Season 4. Last I saw, the relationship btw the brothers was fine.

It's certain fans who haven't moved past Season 4 and likely never will.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-17 11:56
Absolutely. The brothers have moved on and their bond is strong! I think in Season 8 we will see more evidence of this.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-17 09:25
To me Season 6 and Season 7 had the exact same writing problem re: Dean's character. Call it lack of interest, lack of purpose, lack of basically anything.

And while in Season 6, there was an alibi "story" with Lisa and Ben - that they devoted about 10 minutes in total to - he really had nothing to do with the main storyline. Which in Season 6 was split between first half: Sam's story and second half: Cas' story. If Dean was there or not there had no bearing on either story.

The same happened pretty much in Season 7. The main story were the Leviathans and Dean didn't have an important part in that that would have given the character the opportunity to do something fresh, give him some new material to react to, to drive the plot forward.

In its place, during both Seasons, we got "angst" for the sake of it. Or, rather as a place-filler. Because if the actor is contracted (and they have to pay him), they are gonna put him on screen here and there. So on the very surface he needs to do something on screen.

That something was the same vague angst as the year before. No growth, no change, no momentum and the same "resolution" in terms of a few boohoo speeches and then dropping it. Which in itself is ridiculous to me.

Other characters look at him as weak and whiny (and has that particular character-bashi ng not been driven into the ground in the last four years it happened, writers?) and tell him to stop navel-gazing yet that is the only thing the writers will ever give him. While making him wrong for doing it. Nice.

Does that feel frustrating and lame? Sure. But to me it was never meant to be a real story. It was meant to pass the time between episodes that dealt with the actual story. They could have put on a test screen or used stock footage from Season 6 (or 2-5) for that and the main story wouldn't have changed. For a show with supposedly two leads, not even bothering to come up with a story for one is ultra-lame IMO.

Ironically, the only character that had a real storyline this Season was Bobby. Not that I cared about it much but he got more than either Dean or Sam in year 7.

Now the only thing that was even slightly interesting for the character were the last thirty seconds of the Season 7 Finale. By sending Dean to Purgatory, there is at least potential to do something new with him and, gosh golly, present him in a positive light for a change again.

To show him as a badass, knowledgeable, competent hunter without putdowns every five minutes, without boohoo speeches. And if he is now part of the story, part of the mystery and thus allowed to drive the plot? Would be fantastic in my eyes. Anything but vague angst.
misty
# misty 2012-06-17 22:08
I think in past seasons 1-4 both Dean and Sam got some story. IMO I still believe Sam got the juicer ones but I guess that's up for debate. In any case, I do understand where some fans may feel that Sam's hallucination plot didn't get the attention it deserved. That's because it didn't; neither did Dean's suicidal thoughts and tendencies. The Leviathin arc was weak IMO. And there's this tendency from some fans to blame Sam's wall breakdown on, incredibly enough, Dean instead of Cas! Now, I still like Cas. But come on, his actions are what pretty much caused everything bad in S7; Leviathins, Bobby's death, and of course, Sam nearly dying. They say it's Dean's fault because he had the wall put in! Excuse me, but what the heck else was he supposed to do? Let Souless Sam continue to let innocent people die or be killed(by him) when they got in his way or to achieve his own ends, no empathy, caring only about himself? Would you really have wanted to see THAT Sam go on? Not me. I thought Jared did a great job, but it was time to get the Sammy we all loved back and loving his brother again and caring about others.
But instead of seeing Dean work with Sam to help bring him through this, they basically just gave Sam's plight to Cas. Now some fans are saying Dean's so mean to Cas because he can't just hug him and forgive him that easy. WTH? Dean has a damn good reason to still be angry at Cas! I do hope somehow they can repair their friendship, but come on. In real life, don't you think it would take you a long time, if you were in Dean's shoes?
Basically, I feel, both characters and both actors were screwed in favor of supporting and guest stars. I love Bobby and Cas, and I liked Charlie but they shouldn't have been given precedence over Sam and Dean, ya know, THE MAIN CHARACTERS!
ALL of the characters, Dean included, have screwed up from time to time. I'll admit too that Dean has had more than his share of douchbag moments, even though I love him. But to blame him for what Cas did? You can still love Cas, again, I still do, and still admit that he is to blame here.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-18 19:33
If they stopped with the angel quick-fix as a solution for everything, they'll have more plot and storylines for both Sam and Dean.
Let's try to make it harder for them to solve things. Let's try to remember they're family and had a bond like no other, that once saved the world.
I liked how Dean found a way to make Death cooperate, they could had made it a bit longer, but it's fine. I thought they'd try to think of something S7 when Sam's wall finally crumbled, but they chose the easy way of angel-fixing. Boooring.
And worse part? When Sam was going insane we at least got to see Pellegrino. Castiel is not even amusing. The naked covered in bees part was a bit pathetic and the character will end being a joke at this rate.

I'm mostly agreeing with you on everything, btw. Just ranting. Sorry.

So yeah, please, give Sam and Dean the important roles and storylines. Bring the supportive characters in when needed for that story. That's the logical way to do it.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 12:05
Agreed!! And Seconding everything you said here. I actually jumping happily when they said that S7 will gonna be the brothers alone. For a while I am happy that they won't get a quick fix by any angles. It makes them obsolete and a sissy. Makes them weak to always depending on angel fix.

When Sam's wall broke down I was at the end of my seat and wondering how they would fix it. But then I'm clearly unimpressed with the solution.

I like Castiel just fine but his reappearance was not at the proper place and the proper time. But maybe it was just to show that the writer choose the easy way by introducing deus ex machina or God's Hand. There's actually a theory in writing for that. When a writer got themselves in a corner the easiest way is to introduce a God's hand.
Like the Elder wand in Harry Potter verse. It's dumb move. But I can accept as it is only children books.
Supernatural is not children book right? They didn't hope to fool us like that right?
misty
# misty 2012-06-17 22:17
Speaking of Dean being in Purgatory, they better damn well make it actually LOOK like he's been in Purgatory for 4 months! Not coming back with a fresh shave and a haircut! His hair better be long and he better have a beard, or I swear I will throw something at the tv! Ok, LOL, I'm getting a little to worked up here over a tv show, but you can only suspend so much disbelief. I mean, we see him drinking whiskey the first thing in the morning, every morning, straight out the bottle, and he never stumbles or slurs his speech! Yeah, I know hard core alcoholics develop a tolerance, but you think they would show some affects from time to time.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 12:11
I'm not even sure how time works down there? Or is it down?
Does hair even grow there? :D Is there any razor? I bet there are lot's of knives and sharp tool in Dean's so many jacket pocket.

Are they even get tired? How will Dean eat? Is it like in Hell and Heaven that you don't need to eat f you don't want to.
When leviathan topside they are all VERY HUNGRY. I have the impressions that they don't eat much in Purgatory or not at all. Perhaps the monster there are just fight and fight not eating, not sleeping. If they are eating perhaps unsatisfactoril y unlike eating humans.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-17 23:16
I don't think the strangling episode is a big deal. At least that is what the writers want us to believe and I guess the writer is a guy! I mean Sam and Dean have apologized to each other over words they have said to each other (when they were possessed for example) and the writers thought it was important for them to apologize. So my conclusion is that the writers don't think it's a big deal.
And I have watched Heart recently. Sam was not madly in love with Madison.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-17 23:44
To be specific, Sam apologized to Dean at the end of the Time for a Wedding episode where he had told Dean that he doesn't need him anymore. It was the love potion working so there wasn't really a need for an apology but Sam apologized anyway. So for some reason the writers think that this needed an apology but not the strangling episode!
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-18 07:06
Nita, I agree that the writers didn't think the strangling was a big deal. Dean mentioned the lies in the Season 5 premiere, and Sam just apologized for "everything." I think the writers thought it was sufficient. Again, that could be b/c they're men and apparently men don't care if they're repeatedly punched by their brothers or choked out by them. They just move on. LOL :-)

SS didn't hold any grudges agaisnt Dean for beating him down, not like he could anyway. I doubt the Real Sam would hold it against Dean either, so I guess Dean wasn't really bothered by it. He did try to make up w/Sam shortly after the incident. He was more upset by the lies and the Ruby betrayal. None of that was ever really addressed that I can recall.

I completely agree about Sam not being madly in love w/Madison. I really like Heart, but I can't believe he fell in love w/someone w/whom he only spent one day.

I haven't rewatched ATFAW, but I thought Sam was more telling Dean that he was okay and that Dean needed to care about himself more than Sam. I can't quite remember though.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 17:52
Actually Nita, I didn't really see it that way either, but several times on the show, it was referenced that'Sam found love again" with Madison. I know it was referenced in MATEOTB. So that's why I believed he was madly in love with her, but maybe not. Truly, I would like to see both boys fall madly in love just once, and actually SEE it, not hear about it.
Allie111
# Allie111 2012-06-18 22:32
Quote:
I don't think the strangling episode is a big deal. At least that is what the writers want us to believe and I guess the writer is a guy!
Actually, Sera wrote the strangling scene in "Levee." Kripke was the one who thought Dean was being a pussy about it and giggled happily over Dean getting a verbal beatdown from Bobby.

The fact that Kripke didn't think it was a big deal doesn't hold a lot of water in my books. He admitted he identified with younger brother Sam and that bias clearly influenced a lot of how Kripke saw the brothers' relationship, with bossy, overbearing Dean who needed to learn to love his brother more and poor, misunderstood Sam, who just wanted respect. I've often wondered how things might have played out if Kripke hadn't based the story on his own life, hadn't played favorites and had seen the brothers' relationship in a more neutral light.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-19 08:57
Yeah, sadly, I have to agree 100% with this, but maybe(HOPEFULLY !) Carver can stay more unbiased in all ways than his predecessors were and we'll finally get more of a semblance of balance in the writing. It didn't bother me as much in the early seasons when Kripke allowed Dean to clearly be the leader when it came to most aspects of the hunt, but after S5 when both Kripke and Gamble attempted to take that away from Dean-that was when the show became just DVR material for me-and that, strictly because of Jensen's acting. I hope with every fiber of my being that Carver is different and has no character bias to cloud the storytelling.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-19 09:11
Shelby, I think the writers changed Dean's role as Sam grew up. However, I think he still follows Dean's lead although he does not like to bossed around and that is typical younger brother attitude and most natural. In season 7 he was reluctant to go after the Leviathans to save Bobby as he felt they stood little chance. At least he didn't seem to want to go unprepared. But Dean was bent on it and Sam followed him. So he took a risk because he would follow his brother to hell if he had to. But now Dean also listens to Sam, and true, Dean is not the "leader." But I think this works because now Sam is almost 30 years old.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-19 09:39
With due respect the days of Dean being the 'leader' and Sam stepping in behind are over. We all want balance in the storytelling but the simple fact is the brother's have changed and Sam is no longer the college boy kid who had been out of hunting and Dean the seasoned hunter .

Both boys can be leaders when the situation needs it .And it is that that needs to be seen not the retro Dean leader and Sam shut your cakehole situation .I agree with some of the writing for both brothers have left alot to be desired not just Dean but in season 8 they need to give us back the Dean full of fight and spirit and one that can lead but isnt the leader. Both boys bring alot to the table it doesnt have to be either or .
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 13:04
But Dean is still very much the leader - at least in my opinion he is. I think the difference is his word is no longer "the law" or the "final say" on an issue. He will listen to Sam and consider Sam's POV/thoughts, etc. The best example would be how Sam wanted to change tactics in the Alpha Vamp episode this year. Sam presented his arguments, and Dean agreed.

To me, Dean is a natural leader, and I see a lot of people following his lead. It happened in GGY, Croatoan, the episode where Rufus died, episode where we learn Christian's a demon, AAH (episode where Jo and Ellen died), the entirety of The End. Dean leads. That's what he does, and people follow him. They look to him for guidance, including Sam. Sam still follows Dean's lead to this day.

Again, the difference, IMO, is that Dean doesn't assume they will always do what he says; he listens to Sam. I'm not saying there weren't instances of him doing this before, but it's more often now. A good leader, IMO, listens to those on his team. I still very much view Dean as the leader.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 13:28
episode where we learn Christian's a demon

Was this Caged Heat? I felt he was presented as the least "leader"-ish guy in that entire episode. Soulless Sam, Samuel, Meg, Crowley - nearly everybody led their own way with Dean meekly walking along.

Again, the difference, IMO, is that Dean doesn't assume they will always do what he says; he listens to Sam.

To me he has always done that and not in any way less often than now. Someone has done a breakdown of which brother found which hunt/job in the first three or four Seasons and from Season 1 on it was equal, with even a slight favour to Sam.

Then while on the job, I never thought they didn't discuss options or Dean put down his word as law. They had disagreements sometimes but in these each one expected to get their way. Both of them.

Which is why n terms of the job, I never understood in the slightest why Sam considered it un-equal. He got his way when he wanted from Season 1 on. And when Dean didn't agree with him - which Sam is not entitled to in the name of equality - he went and did what he wanted anyway.

So just as I never saw Dean as the leader of them then, I don't see him that way now. Sam makes decisions on the job as much as Dean did. As much as he always has. And I don't think he "follows" Dean's lead in any measurable capacity.

I envision a clear leader-follower dynamic to look differently.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 14:10
Even my sister, who has the biggest Dean crush(probably 'cause she's just like him), said to me when she first started watching the show. "Have you noticed when Dean says there taking a job they just go, but Sam has to convince Dean?" And most the time Dean did decide to go, but that's kind of the point Dean decided. She thought it was kind of funny, because it's just like her.

I don't think there is any question Dean was pretty bossy. But he has gotten better (so has she), that was part of the reason the Amy thing was so irritating. He says ok and then goes behind Sam's back to do it, because Dean knows best.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 14:42
I don't think there is any question Dean was pretty bossy.

As I outlined, I completely disagree so I believe you can't state this as fact. It isn't one for me.

So, since I'm coming from this perspective, of course I see Dean as "having to learn to renounce his bossy ways" as totally obnoxious. Not to mention the more he is requested to toe the line, the more I see it as becoming imbalanced in his disfavour.

And while I thought the secret about Amy was pointless, I didn't have the slightest problem with Dean killing her per se. He has a right to make a different call than Sam and act on that.

He should have simply said so before to Sam. And then Sam could have decided if he wanted to try to stop it or if he couldn't hunt with Dean under these circumstances or whatever his response would have been.

However Dean was under no obligation to spare her because Sam felt like it. That is a decision Sam can make for himself and apparently he did. Whereas Dean came to a different decision.

In itself no problem. It was just that the writers wanted to wring pointless drama from it so they made it a secret.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-19 17:11
Sasha, it's hard to describe b/c Dean is not overtly "bossy" but in the beginning, they pretty much did what Dean decided. I never noticed it, but in re-watching Seasons 1 and 2, I can see it more than I did before.

As Kelly's sister said, Dean pretty much called the shots in the beginning. They did what Dean decided to do, and if Dean was insistent on doing something like responding to Becky's e-mail, Sam had to convince Dean to do it. Once Dean decided it was okay, they did it.

Dean is used to taking charge and making the decisions. He just is. Even in 6.02, Dean remarks, "Who died and made you boss" when Soulless Sam, very briskly, told Dean where to meet him. It was strange for Dean b/c Dean is used to calling the shots on where they go, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Dean is wrong at all in how he behaved w/Sam; I'm just saying he is pretty much the leader. At least that's how I see it. I still do.

Oh, and I'm not talking about Caged Heat b/c you're right, SS really took charge in that episode. I think the reason we (or I) remember that is b/c it's very rare for Sam to take the charge the way he did in CH. I was talking about the episode w/the Alpha Vamp - maybe, it was called All in the Family or something. Dean told SS that SS needed to follow Dean's lead, and they snuck in to speak to the Alpha Vamp! Yes, Dean relinquished leadership to Samuel in the beginning but he re-established his role as a leader when the demons arrived. Dean has a very "take charge" kind of attitude, IMO. He was also "in charge," IMO, during the MOA episode.

I think Dean is a natural leader.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 11:43
Sam has also proven to be a natural leader, he went to save the town in Dead Men while Dean stayed to keep an eye on Bobby. He lead the towns people against the zombies and saved the day with Jody's help. In All Hell Breaks Loose Sam becomes the natural leader for the psycic kids, making plans and keeping everyone calm and informed.

Dean has often followed Sam's lead on hunts and in descision making. Best examples Croatoan, There Will Be Blood so many more I just dont have time to list right now.

AAH was more of a group effort, but it was more from dean's POV which is why it often seems like Dean is more of the leader because thats how he sees himself. He thinks he's responsible for everything that happens to everyone. ie Jo becomin a hunter which is untrue if not a bit arrogant.

I think season 7 showed us that Sam and Dean and now totally on equal footing, its a partnership neither of them is the out right leader.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 11:47
That doesnt make Dean a leader it makes him opinionated and obnoxious.

My guuess is Sam goes a long with Dean more often than not simply because a job is a job who cares who found it or decides to take it.

Sam may have to fight harder to get his way but that again is more to do with Dean being bossy, opinionated, obnouxious, selof righteous, big brother. If I were Sam I just go with the flow just to keep the peace. Also I'm not sure Sam really gives a crap.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 14:37
Sam may have to fight harder to get his way but that again is more to do with Dean being bossy, opinionated, obnouxious, selof righteous, big brother.

How could that be if apparently they are so "equal" now? I guess Dean should get down on his knees and say "yes Sir" more? He does have a right to his own opinions, as well as voicing them. When Sam does the time and simply get his way (and I don't see him having to fight awfully hard for it), does this make him bossy, obnoxious and opinionated, too? Or is HE just his awesome natural leader-self then?
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 15:15
I hope it makes him (Sam) Bossy ,opinionated and obnoxious my two cups run fulleth then ..CheersQuote:
When Sam does the time and simply get his way
what?
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 16:17
Sorry, it was meant to read "when Sam does it at times (i.e. voicing his opinions, ideas, plans)".
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 15:17
Quote:
I guess Dean should get down on his knees and say "yes Sir" more?
Oh no! Dean can say it once every five season like he said to Sam's plan during Swan song
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 16:21
Great, then he can be patted on the head and be told that the plan wouldn't have been moved forward otherwise (unless it totally would have), how invaluable his input was and how it couldn't have been done without him.

And Dean can be literally on his knees again.

I can hardly wait.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 23:53
Dean can be literally on his knees for the first time not again..I don't know why Dean should be given the consideration of being told the plan would not have moved forward other wise if Sam never was ...I only want my cup to run full if such an inequality arises my cup might just break
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 15:58
Yeah, I can agree that Dean used to be pretty bossy, but I didn't see that as him being mean or disrespectful of Sam. I saw it as him being the older brother and more importantly, having had so much responsibility placed him him from such a young age by his father, including being charged with looking after his little brother. So I actually see Dean as having not only been a big brother, but a parent figure as well for Sam, thereby making him bossy and in charge, the way a father would be, taking charge of the situation and being protective. But as Sam is no longer a child, I do think Dean has begun to relinquish that role a little, but not yet completely, because habits you've had your whole life are hard to break.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-19 17:45
I really wasn't saying it was mean or disrespectful. I completely agree that he was a parental figure, probably more than their dad, he definitely followed him easier. Dean was used to being in charge. He'd been looking out for Sam since he was little and become used to telling him what to do. Like you said it was habit. So ingrained he probably wasn't even aware he was doing it most of the time. But as a younger sibling to a bossy older sibling who had a large hand in raising her, it's freaking annoying.

I don't feel so bad though the woman like 5'2" and she can intimidate or manipulate just about anyone, including the doctors where she works (and they totally love her) and you know about doctor's god complexes. But me, I'm on to her tricks-mostly. She can't pull that crap with me. LOL.
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 11:49
Agree with this. Over the seasons the balance has shifted Sam has grown up and Dean sees Sam more as a partner as well as a little brother. Those instincts will always be there though because they're ingrained in who Dean is.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 18:13
And tell me if you can see this; I think they could do a May//December on this show, why not, with none other than Sam and Jodie! I think they have chemistry! Maybe it couldn't last, but I could definately see it happen.
And to all those who think Sam has only Jodie and Garth, what about Martin, and the guy who became a prison warden? They're both still alive as far as we know right? Martin's brain might be fried, but he still seemed to have some hunter instincts left in him. And if Kevin somehow manages to escape from Crowley, I mean, it was clear he will have a role of some sort next season, so he's also a possible helpmate for Sam to find Dean and save him. All I know for sure is I damned well want it to be SAM who saves Dean. Alas, I'm afraid he'll end up being forced to work with Crowley somehow.
Anybody else think Dean is going to be somehow changed and tramatized when he returns? Either mentally, physically, or both?
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-19 12:50
Anybody else think Dean is going to be somehow changed and tramatized when he returns? Either mentally, physically, or both?

I'd like to see him more of a hardass after being forced to fight for his survival in such a hostile environment. Hypervigilant, always coiled to strike, a fighter to be reckoned with, having accumulated some new skils and knowledge, possibly even something "extra" in a genre way.

In no way do I care for Deansel in distress - I don't mind if he can't walk himself out of Purgatory, there is no shame in not managing the impossible after all but no freezing up and being kicked out of the action in hunts - or another bout of the writers having mouthpiece characters going "look how he came back weak and whiny, how pathetic".

If they show him a bit darker, fine, but for once I want it displayed as strength and kickass, not "emotional trauma that diminished him".
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 16:18
Well Sasha, I don't see how in the world anybody, no matter how badass, could go through all that and not be horribly affected. I don't think it would be a sign of weakness at all, just a sign of humaness. In the long run though, of course, I want to see the return of kickass hunter Dean Winchester. But to live through Purgatory, as well as HELL, and not suffer Post Tramatic Stress Syndrome to some degree would be downright unrealistic.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-20 11:50
In the long run though, of course, I want to see the return of kickass hunter Dean Winchester.

I'm afraid after the utter horror that was 5.22 to me as well as the last two Seasons, I want kickass hunter Dean NOW. Not in some unspecified time in years to come.

Besides, they can do PTSD with an action component. Whenever they tried to do a "Sam is emotionally compromised" story, they always framed it in a somewhat positive "look at the badass" light. In the last few years with Dean they always took the "oh, look how he freezes and whines" route.

So I think it's time to hit another note with the character. In the early parts of Season 2 Dean was in emotional torment and that came out mostly through activeness, hunting or beating on the car nor emo moments beside the car. If I never see another one of those for Dean (and a "boohoo, suck it up, loser" speech three episodes later), it will still be too soon.
Shelby
# Shelby 2012-06-21 15:27
Oh, SO. MUCH. WORD. to this post. If they want to keep him damaged, then let us see the damage played out and manifested through more of those "bouts of violence"(again st the baddies, of course) that he spoke of in the mannequin episode, I think.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 09:22
I too hope Dean comes back as a badass may be something akin to Sam's souless story it was really "positive" right...
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 14:40
Yes, it was. He was utterly and completely excused for any bad doings because he wasn't himself but was instead horribly suffering and while it happened he got all the mystery storyline and badass moments.

I don't see much negative there.

I'd be HAPPY if Dean got this much consideration.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 15:47
Quote:
Yes, it was. He was utterly and completely excused for any bad doings because he wasn't himself but was instead horribly suffering and while it happened he got all the mystery storyline and badass moments.
Yes he was horribly suffering..For a guy who had only to Deal with hell memories when he came back now he has to Deal with hell memories as well as his SS crimes when he comes back ...There is nothing to excuse...I would be happy if Dean got such Badass moments and mystery storyline .I would be HAPPY too then i can say too that Dean was excused so easily yes as emmau said we should get the taste of the grass on the other side it will be FUN...
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 17:02
I know you think I was being sarcastic but I wasn't. I would be genuinely overjoyed if Dean got the kind of writing Sam has gotten.

You may not consider it not worth much but for me it's WAY better than what Dean has gotten in a long time. While, I'm guessing you feel the same in reverse.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-28 00:16
No need to guess ..i do feel the same in reverse even if you don't consider it worth
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-28 00:22
I was not being sarcastic..That was actually Sam's situation
Hades
# Hades 2012-06-27 11:52
Maybe Dean will learn to appreciate life more, then we'll see a more light hearted Dean who likes to hunt again rather than emo Dean.
misty
# misty 2012-06-18 18:21
The theme of SPN should be 'These brother's lives are so awful, don't hate them for being gorgeous!'
Honestly, it really is almost like the forces of nature knew how tragic and sucky and miserable their lives would be, so they gave them their unbelievable good looks to help make it more bearable! LOL
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-18 22:45
I DO love Jody. LOL. And I totally agree with your theme. It's spot on.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-18 23:35
Like many here I too want to see Sam and Dean fall in love. I hope that's how they wrap up Supernatural with both the guys having found the girl of their dreams. Or at least hint at it.
I quite liked the idea of Jo and Dean because I loved Jo and thought she deserved Dean! I wonder if they will bring Lisa back. All the creators have to do is bring her memory back and viola! Dean has a ready-made family again.
I also want Sam and Dean to be recognized for their efforts to save the world, at least by some secret government agency. I know that sounds too much like X-Files, but I think this will give them a whole department of people they can organise and go into semi-retirement themselves to raise a family.
misty
# misty 2012-06-19 16:12
But so many people didn't seem to like Dean being with Lisa, or thought they didn't have enough chemistry. I'm kind of torn, I mean, if we had seen them meet, be attracted to eachother, not just a wild weekend of sex, but an actual romance develop, maybe I could have gotten behind that relationship more, and maybe I would've have seen the chemistry. But as it was, he just showed up on her doorstep years after said wild weekend, obviously the sex was pretty great as she remembered and bragged about it to all her friends. But she seemed to despise him until he saved her kid, then she was all but ready to lay down and spread em' for him!
Then of course, he shows up again on her doorstep simply because he promised Sam that he would, not because of any real feelings for her, at least I didn't think so. I'm sure he would have come to love her during the time he was with her but, it all just seemed like a setup. Maybe if he did come across her again unexpectedly, and they really DID fall in love organically and naturally, then maybe, yes, I could see it.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-21 09:14
I didn't like Lisa or the whole Lisa arc for a lot of reasons. One is that it was forced and unnatural, and Dean never showed any real sign of being in love or at least liking the girl any more than any other he've banged. He kind of seemed interested when he found about Ben.
For me, it means Dean kind of misses taking care of somebody, it's how he defined himself, what he's done all his life. He'd be a great father.

I admire her for accepting a broken man that didn't actually love her in her life, for a whole year, when Dean was starting to show having problmes with alcohol, was miserable and we know he did questionable things trying to find a way to save Sam from the cage.

But of course, I don't like domesticity and I don't have much hope for the show to have a happy ending, anyway, too much messed-up shit, boys too broken, too much baggage. But a 'they kept hunting and doing as always' ending with both brothers being at peace with themselves and each other would be good for me.
misty
# misty 2012-06-21 15:52
Well I think he DID eventually love her in the end. You've heard the phrase'grow to love', right? It was clear to me that he cared a lot for her at least, and looked forward to his occasional 'dinner and sex' visits, and there were times in season 6 that he was shown thinking about being with her in bed and then that last montage when she finally told him it was over. Not to mention all the demons he tortured and killed trying to find her and Ben. So obviously he did miss his life with her on some level. But that 'something' of meeting, attraction, sparks flying and passion, that's what we didn't see and that's what I want to see from Dean.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-21 18:57
I don't know. I guess it's open to interpretation. I don't see love where you do. Fondness, yes, of course, he has a heart. And he cared of her and Ben, and protected them but it wasn't not love, imo.

But I'm afraid that's as close to real love (in a traditional, romantic sense, of course)as he's gonna ever get.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-21 22:30
If it comes to being madly in love, they didn't show that between Lisa and Dean. The only time they showed a great love it was between Jessica and Sam. However I think that Dean could get that kind of love. I don't see why he cannot be shown falling headlong in love and I hope they show it for both Sam and Dean before they end SPN.
misty
# misty 2012-06-22 05:34
See, that's what I'm saying; we DID get to see that for Sam. We never got to see that with Dean. All I ask for is to let Dean have that kind of love too, although of course the nature of the show dictates that it can't last, but it would be lovely, for me anyway, to see that side of Dean JUST ONCE.
No, Dean and Lisa were not very much in love, what I meant is that he must have grown to care for her a lot in the time they were together.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-22 07:22
Sam's relationship with Jessica came from 4 years of ‘normal’ life, and we saw very, very little of their relationship. It's going to be nigh on impossible for either Sam or Dean to have that type of relationship again while they are hunting.

What do people mean/want when they talk about ‘great love’? Is a ‘great love’ one like John and Mary had, something that motivated over two decades of a quest for revenge? Except of course it then transpired that they argued a lot, he had left home and their love was coerced by angels? I don’t see much great about that love.

Or is it the great love between Sam and Jessica, the one we saw nothing of but which we later found out was also coerced, this time by demons (Brady). We also know that Sam was far from truthful with her. We only got to see the idealistic (possibly fantasised) aspect of their love because Jessica only lasted an episode. Sam and Jessice could have had a Romeo & Juliet type love or a Homer & Marge or even a Kim Kardashian & Kris Humphries type love for all we know.

I believe that Dean did love Lisa and had he not gone to her in the circumstances he did (ie, had they rekindled their romance after Dean retired) then they would have had a long lasting relationship. The importance the show put on their relationship was long established. He remembered her from years ago in The Kids are Alright (and given the amount of women that the show suggests that Dean has slept with then it can't have been just the sex he remembered). She was what he dreamed of in 3.10. She was the one he went to in 99 Problems, he choose to stay with her and Ben in Exile on Main Street and had to be shoved out the door by Lisa (who evidently knew Dean better than he knew himself) to hunt in Two and a Half Men. He was still dreaming of her in The Third Man and he even went to them while in a vampire induced state in Twihard. He certainly loved her and Ben enough to go after them in Let it Bleed and also loved them enough to let them go in order to keep them safe. I really don't see much of a difference in the relationship between Sam & Jessica and Dean & Lisa.

Love is love, regardless of the when, where and why. It's the choices you make that make it a great, not how many flowers one gets the other or how long the courtship was. Dean and Lisa's love, while it might not have been given the time to be 'great', I feel it certainly was good and it definitely was real.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-22 07:44
I agree on Sam and Jess. We don't really know what kind relationship they had, and there's a big chance it wasn't the great lovestory we, the fans, sometimes think it was. And yeah, when we got to know there was a plan behindit, my opinion on it changed a bit.

Can't agree on Lisa and Dean, sorry. We're told Dean's love was Cassy, by his own mouth. When he 'dreams' of a perfect life, all he sees is a imaginary girl that never existed, and he already knew Lisa by then (and Cassy!).

I just can't see it, maybe I'm biased, but in my mind, it was always Ben and not Lisa, and I must admit I find that much more interesting for Dean as a character.

Okay, okay, I think I've talked way too much about this!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-22 13:08
I think the difference in how see Lisa and Dean's relationship is how you view love. Romantic or somewhat pragmatic. Some people see different levels of love, others don't. Few people don't distinguish any type of passionate or intense love from the kind that includes sex, I'm looking at you Wincesters.

I personally think he loved her and likely would have stayed with her under different circumstances. And maybe would have come to feel more intensely for her in the future, but I when he went to her she was a port in a storm. He was devastated by Sam's death and by everything he'd gone through. He wanted a family and she had a ready-made one right there. With a kid he was thought might be his. Which is when he started connecting her in his mind to a family of his own. It had more to do with Ben IMO than Lisa. But because she was kind, bendy and a good mother. He thought I would like to be apart of this.

During the year they were together he was still reeling from Sam and trying to save him and come to terms with his death all at once. His focus was still Sam, regardless of how much he cared for Lisa and Ben. Which was made quite evident when he took off with Sam as soon as he got back basically.

Cassie I don't think he really loved because they were together for like two weeks. And didn't even try to fight for her. I think her was extremely attracted to her and was starting to fall when their relationship ended. I think if he'd been truly in love then he would have tried harder.

We don't know what Sam's relationship with Jess was. Although they had been together for a while and didn't get together under nearly as dire circumstances and he continued to think of her and said he missed her in S5. So my best guess in they did have deeper relationship that Dean and Lisa, but it is just a guess.

But and I said this earlier the problem with them having almost any relationship on the show is the nature of the show itself. They drive around place to place doing a dangerous job that sometimes comes back on the other people in there lives. There's not a lot of time to build the relationship for the audience or the characters.

I think they would need someone like Jo who already in the life therefore already in danger and who can also meet them different places as they hunt. But it's hard to introduce people in on this show. Everytime a woman appears, it's like a flashing red light. POSSIBLE LOVE INTEREST. They did a good job with Jody, so it's possible.
Of course they still have to deal with the fans girls after all that. Poor Sam and Dean are never going to get any at this rate.
misty
# misty 2012-06-24 12:23
And after the whole Slice Girls debacle, I guess we wont even get to see Dean being promiscuous anymore, which was always a part of his character, maybe not a good one, but it was just a part of who he was. I guess just one more thing that was taken away.
It was also implied in that episode that perhaps Dean hasn't always been as careful as you would think a man who's bedhopped as much as it's been implied would be. You would think he would always have a full pack of Trojans in his wallet at any given time. Maybe 'monster vaginal fluid' melted the rubber! But you think he would've have noticed.
It's a wonder then that they aren't a bunch of little Deans and Deannas running around somewhere. Of that Dean hasn't had any STDs. Well that we know of. Yeah I know, off topic, but it just popped into my head.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-27 17:10
I guess we wont even get to see Dean being promiscuous anymore, which was always a part of his character, maybe not a good one

I liked that in the beginning they didn't make it into much of a negative thing. Normally on US shows a healthy sex drive is either a sign of a (semi)-evil character or of one who is too screwed up know any better.

Like enjoying casual sex with adult partners who want the same so noone gets hurt, in a transient life style no less, is some bad habit. It might not be my personal lifestyle but I've always said "more power to him".

I'd like to see some healthy balance between an HBO show and a network show (a hero doesn't have a libido, unless married) and simply goes with "if it's fun, sure why not".
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-23 00:46
Two points Tim. One, whether manipulated by demons or not and whether we were shown the love between Jess and Sam, the show meant to convey to us that it was something monumental because it was a reason why Sam went back to hunting and revenge.
I do agree with you that love is love, regardless of when, where or why. And I guess it is the romantic in us which wants to see the " flowers." It makes for a great drama doesn't it! And I am just longing to see Dean feel that! I want to see him go to a woman not because he needs her or a family, but because he can't get her out of his mind! There, that's the romantic in me talking!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-23 02:58
Quote:
Two points Tim. One, whether manipulated by demons or not and whether we were shown the love between Jess and Sam, the show meant to convey to us that it was something monumental because it was a reason why Sam went back to hunting and revenge.
It was also to convey to us that Sam was more like John than he wanted to admit because it wasn’t Jessica’s death that drew Sam back to hunting, but the manner in which she died. If Jessica had been hit by a car then Sam would not have gone back hunting and he would not have sought revenge on the person who hit her. And there was more than love involved in his decision to go back hunting. Guilt, and fear, also played a huge part of it.

I’ve no doubt there was love between Sam and Jessica but I do doubt, based on what we knew of the Sam Jessica relationship at the time, that the relationship would last, even taking the demon blood/Lucifer vessel out of the equation. By virtue of the fact that he kept so much from her, Jessica didn’t know Sam. She only knew the Sam that Sam wanted Jessica to know. Sam didn’t trust Jessica (or the strength of their relationship?) enough to tell her the truth about himself, his family and his life.

What Sam knew about relationships growing up he learned from Dean, John or books, so it really is no surprise that he was completely unrealistic about what he believed a true, romantic relationship was because he had never known one. Given how Dean reacted when Sam mentioned his mother in Pilot and the fact that Sam knew little of Mary, I doubt the John Mary relationship was openly discussed in the Winchester house. Add to that, Dean didn't do relationships. According to the YED, Sam had been looking at engagement rings yet at that time Jessica knew next to nothing about Sam's life prior to Stanford. How can a relationship be considered monumental in those circumstances?

Quote:
I do agree with you that love is love, regardless of when, where or why. And I guess it is the romantic in us which wants to see the " flowers." It makes for a great drama doesn't it! And I am just longing to see Dean feel that! I want to see him go to a woman not because he needs her or a family, but because he can't get her out of his mind! There, that's the romantic in me talking!
Like Dean could not get Lisa out of his mind? Over two years passed between Dream a Little Dream of Me and 99 Problems, so she was definitely on his mind and he didn’t need her or a family back then. I don’t think the circumstances in which people meet matter, but what they do after which makes it romantic and monumental. My 17 year old brother’s girlfriend fell pregnant after they’d been going out for about six weeks. 13 years and two more children later, they’re happily married and going strong. Had she not gotten pregnant then would they still be together? Highly unlikely. I’d consider that a great love but it wasn’t built on great drama or great gestures. The romance was also there but it was secondary to the relationship itself.

Flowers and whatnot do make for great drama but that does not necessarily make for great love. Romeo & Juliet had great romantic drama in their relationship, and it turned Romeo into a murderer and eventually led to both of their suicides. Dean has had the great drama in his life, both romantic and otherwise so I'm glad he got to experience a relationship with someone who could give him stability, trust, understanding and acceptance. I feel it earned it.
Lynx
# Lynx 2012-06-23 04:39
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I’ve no doubt there was love between Sam and Jessica but I do doubt, based on what we knew of the Sam Jessica relationship at the time, that the relationship would last, even taking the demon blood/Lucifer vessel out of the equation. By virtue of the fact that he kept so much from her, Jessica didn’t know Sam. She only knew the Sam that Sam wanted Jessica to know. Sam didn’t trust Jessica (or the strength of their relationship?) enough to tell her the truth about himself, his family and his life.
Tim, Not meaning to stir up a hornets nest but Mary hid pretty much exactly the same things from John. Does that mean that you don't think that Mary and John would have lasted for the long run? :-?
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-23 11:41
No hornets being stirred! Too damn wet here for them to be out....

Honestly, no, I don’t think that John and Mary’s relationship would have lasted the long run (and not just because John is still yearning for me......) and yes, there are huge similarities between John & Mary’s and Sam & Jessica’s relationships.

In My Bloody Valentine it was established that John and Mary were only brought together by the angels, and that prior to that they couldn’t stand each other. Dark Side of the Moon showed us that John and Mary had frequent and memorable fights, the timing of which I find quite significant. You would assume that the news of a new arrival would only serve to bring a family closer together yet some time between Sam’s conception and Dean's memory in Dark Side of the Moon (when Sam was not long born) relations between John and Mary had broken down to such an extent that John had moved out of the house.

So what on earth happened in that time and why? Could it be a case that the natural animosity between John and Mary was so strong that not even angels could keep them together? Could it be that the angels stopped working the mojo on John and Mary after they fulfilled their purpose (creating two vessels) and that without that influence then they went back to how they were pre mojo?

Either way, I find it hard to envisage John and Mary lasting the distance.
Lynx
# Lynx 2012-06-23 19:48
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(and not just because John is still yearning for me......)
:D :D

I don't really place too much emphasis on the cupid angel aspect of them getting together, so I guess I just assumed that once a couple is marked the angels didn't have anything more to do with it.

The timing of the temporary seperation is thought provoking. I would dearly love to know what happened but I don't think we're ever going to find out so we'll just have to use our own imaginations. ;-) Mary and John seemed pretty solid in the pilot episode so I figured that whatever it was, they managed to get past it.

But then I'm a happy endings sort of gal!
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-23 13:36
Hi Tim.

I see your point. But I also believe that Sam and Jessica could've had a shot, if taken out the demon plans. Hunting is just something he didn't want to do anymore, and I'm sure that telling someone about that is going to make them think you're insane. How can you tell someone something like that when to most people in the population it's total make belief? But why would you even tell someone that? That monsters are real. Would it make you feel safe? Would it make you live your life more free? I think this is the same reason John and Dean kept Sam in the dark as a kid, to make him feel safe. To have that innocence. So no, I can't hold it against him. And I don't see it as him not beeing himself just because he didn't say that killed monsters and ghouls and such. He was still Sam.

And not to toot my own horn or anything (yeah right ;) ) but I met my husband when I was 15, just about to turn 16. We were together for 13 years before we had kids, and we've been married for 7 years now, together over 14 years total. Now, at the time, did I think that I had met the love of my life? No! I was a 16 for heavens sake! But I did love him lots, and as time passed I learned that I love him more and more. And the became the "one". (I hate that saying). It's not always about the age, it's about the people. Patience, tolerance, loyalty, love. And possibly fate plays some factor if you want to believe in things like that. I'd like to think that we were meant to be. Time will tell.

But meaning, that I think Sam and Jess could've had a shot. I believe they could've had something, a marriage, a life together even. Most likely even introducing Dean and/or John to her in some way. Honestly, there would've been some secrets but in this case I believe, I'm not too hard on him for keeping hunting a secret when clearly it was something he wasn't interested in doing. And the danger factor. And he could've told her sometime later. And they could've gotten over it. Maybe :) We don't know. But I'd like to think that she felt for him the same way he did and she did seem like the understanding type. But that was season 1 Sam. Could he, later, might have felt the urge to get back to hunting? We'll never know, but I think it might've been possible. And I'd like to think he wouldn't have just done that behind her back. But if he never wanted to do it, then I'm all for not telling her.

With Dean and Lisa, I never really "felt" what they had, but I'm sure that they loved each other and had a nice family (eventually anyways) and had Sam not come back, they could've gone to an even better place. He did seem to care about them. His drinking was the only iffy part for me, but I'm sure with time, he could've got to a place where he didn't have to drink so much. Ben did look up to him, in mind. But I don't pen that on him as much as on Lisa. But blah blah aside, they could've worked out too. And since B&L knew about hunting, it would've been a bit easier since Dean allready showed signs that he was hunt-hungry before Sam came back, so he could've done some hunts if need be and not lie about it.

But personally, SPN in mind, I like the unattached and on the road :)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-23 18:39
Quote:
I see your point. But I also believe that Sam and Jessica could've had a shot, if taken out the demon plans. Hunting is just something he didn't want to do anymore, and I'm sure that telling someone about that is going to make them think you're insane. How can you tell someone something like that when to most people in the population it's total make belief? But why would you even tell someone that? That monsters are real. Would it make you feel safe? Would it make you live your life more free? I think this is the same reason John and Dean kept Sam in the dark as a kid, to make him feel safe. To have that innocence. So no, I can't hold it against him. And I don't see it as him not beeing himself just because he didn't say that killed monsters and ghouls and such. He was still Sam.
Sam and Jessica definitely could have had a shot but I feel that Jessica would have needed to know the whole truth in order for that to last. I understand why Sam did what he did, and I do empathise, but the thing is, it wasn’t just the hunting he was keeping from Jessica, it was also his family and his entire childhood.

I don’t think Sam would have had a relationship with a complete dunderhead so Jessica was fairly intelligent. How long before she started questioning, and demanding, answers about Sam’s family? How long before she would no longer be content to be fobbed off? How long before she started looking to meet Sam’s family? How could a relationship last if Sam insisted on keeping 18 years of his life to himself? And the longer it goes, the more lies Sam would have needed to tell in order to keep up the facade.

The other thing is, monsters and whatnot were not going to stay away just because Sam wanted them to. (Did Sam still keep weapons and salt around the place? I need to rewatch the Pilot.) What happened if there was a hunt in or around Stanford? Would he ignore it or would he take it? Given who Sam is, I don't think he could just stand idly by and see innocent people get killed when he could do something about it so I feel he'd go hunting. How would he then explain it to Jessica when he came back bruised and bloody? The tragic thing is, I dare say that Jessica would have loved that uber proactive, protective side of Sam (who wouldn’t!) but he never gave her the chance to see it.

As we saw in A Very Supernatural Christmas, Sam knew how much it hurt to be kept in the dark about hunting, and it shaped a lot of how he felt and acted after that. He learned at the age of 8 that being ignorant didn’t mean being safe. And another huge difference between mini Sam and Jessica is that Jessica wasn’t a child. She was an adult involved in an adult relationship and all it entails.

Yes, I get that he wanted her to feel safe but there’s a difference between feeling safe and being safe. I don’t think Jessica could be safe while being kept in the dark.

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And not to toot my own horn or anything (yeah right ;) ) but I met my husband when I was 15, just about to turn 16. We were together for 13 years before we had kids, and we've been married for 7 years now, together over 14 years total. Now, at the time, did I think that I had met the love of my life? No! I was a 16 for heavens sake! But I did love him lots, and as time passed I learned that I love him more and more. And the became the "one". (I hate that saying). It's not always about the age, it's about the people. Patience, tolerance, loyalty, love. And possibly fate plays some factor if you want to believe in things like that. I'd like to think that we were meant to be. Time will tell.
You big toothead, you!!

I know it’s not about age, and I’ve known plenty of people who met young and were in long lasting relationships. But again, the difference between those guys and Sam and Jessica is that because they met so young, they grew up together, and they knew all about each other. Jessica only knew what Sam wanted her to know. Imagine if you found out something huge about Mr. Super ie he has a secret second family out there somewhere and he didn’t tell you because he wanted to protect you (actually, Supernarttu, there’s something I’ve been meaning to tell you.......), how strong would the relationship be after that? What if he didn’t tell you anything about the first 16 years of his life, or he told you and you later found out he was lying?

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But meaning, that I think Sam and Jess could've had a shot. I believe they could've had something, a marriage, a life together even. Most likely even introducing Dean and/or John to her in some way. Honestly, there would've been some secrets but in this case I believe, I'm not too hard on him for keeping hunting a secret when clearly it was something he wasn't interested in doing. And the danger factor. And he could've told her sometime later. And they could've gotten over it. Maybe :) We don't know. But I'd like to think that she felt for him the same way he did and she did seem like the understanding type. But that was season 1 Sam. Could he, later, might have felt the urge to get back to hunting? We'll never know, but I think it might've been possible. And I'd like to think he wouldn't have just done that behind her back. But if he never wanted to do it, then I'm all for not telling her.
So if Mr. Super was part of the Finnish mob in his youth (actually, that'd be kinda cool) and he killed people, you wouldn't want to know about it if he didn't plan to get back into it again?

Could Sam and Jessica have had a life and a marriage etc? Of course. However, until such time as Sam told her about his life and his family then it wouldn’t be a marriage built on trust. The thing is, Supernarrtu, I feel that the secret was just too damn big. He wasn’t keeping her in the dark about secretly dying his hair or being a closet Sex and the City fan (though I’d rather hear about the monsters than that), Sam’s secret was huge, and the longer he kept it from her the more detrimental to their relationship it was going to be. When Jessica found out (and it’s SPN, she was going to find out) how could she ever trust Sam again?

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With Dean and Lisa, I never really "felt" what they had, but I'm sure that they loved each other and had a nice family (eventually anyways) and had Sam not come back, they could've gone to an even better place. He did seem to care about them. His drinking was the only iffy part for me, but I'm sure with time, he could've got to a place where he didn't have to drink so much. Ben did look up to him, in mind. But I don't pen that on him as much as on Lisa. But blah blah aside, they could've worked out too. And since B&L knew about hunting, it would've been a bit easier since Dean allready showed signs that he was hunt-hungry before Sam came back, so he could've done some hunts if need be and not lie about it.
Dean definitely could have hunted if he wanted to and Lisa certainly didn’t seem to mind it. She was the one who encouraged him to try the dual life. However, to me, that idea could only have worked because Lisa knew the whole of Dean. She knew about his past, she had seen him in action, she knew how much his past affected him and also how much it made him the man he is today (or back then, whenever). However, I don’t think their relationship would have worked if he were not honest with her. Hell, he didn’t tell her about being a vampire and it did play a part in ending their relationship.
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-25 15:17
I agree that Jes should've known the whole truth at some point, but only in that he'd decided that hunting was what he wanted to do, occationally atleast. He still wanted to make a difference as a lawyer so I don't think that he really had any real crawings to get back to the life. That could've changed but, I'd again doubt that he'd do it behind her back. Or he could've, who knows.

I just didn't see that he had any reason to tell, yet atlest. There hadn't been any signs that she was in trouble or that even he was (except the dreams but they, they were just dreams at that point), so again, why tell her something so upsetting. So that she would freak out at every sound and have nightmares and "what ifs" for the rest of her life, if it wasn't even really necessary? I wouldn't put that on some, just in the name of honesty. Sometimes you tell the truth for you, not for them.

And I don't think that just by keeping this family business a secret, and a family that he had been kicked out of, that he would've been keeping quiet for years and years. He was still upset about his family, that was clear in season 1. So talking about them, about painful childhood memories, is never on the list of "things gotta share", unless it's vital. There are still things he could've told her about his childhood that didn't involve hunting. About all the times that he complained about his childhood, he hardly ever (or never) talked about hunting per se. More on the lines "We moved around a lot/Dad left us alone on christmas/I never got to play soccer/Dean always did what dad said/I always felt out of place in my own family" -those were not about hunting, even though it was a factor. He could've easily told her about those memories from his childhood (just replace "dad was out hunting a wendigo" with "dad was out selling shoes or shit"). Also I'm very sure he would've had to at some point share something, since the whole "mystery" thing about someone is only cool and exciting for a certain time.

And since they were together about 1½ years, there were still many times he could've told her about it later (had they got to that). I didn't know a whole lot about hubby when we'd been together for that time ( I had to squeeze things out of him, when it got to a point when he wasn't really caring and sharing a lot, I think it's a guy thing). I don't think that there's this timeline you're supposed to tell everything or it's considered a betrayal of sorts. And certainly not about something dangerous and certainly traumatizing (did Sam take it well that monsters were real??! The kid was a mess. "If they can get to mom, they can get to dad. If they can get to dad, they can get to us!" Goodbye safety.)

And let's face it, Sam did not have a normal childhood, Jes did. Sam did have inklings that something was off since he knew that this was not normal. Jes didn't have a clue from day 1 that monsters were real. Had Sam lived in a normal neighbourhood with neighbours and friends and all, he wouldn't have been so prone to suspect why was dad away so much. So I think in the end he just ended up hating hunting more than anything, and since it seemed to him that it was a nro 1 priority to John (and not them), he ended up hating him too. Because of the hunting, not because he was lied to. I'm sure he understood why they did it (later on anyway) but he just couldn't figure out 'why' they did it, he was a pre-teen/teen/y oung adult and wanted something different for himself. Something different for all of them. That's not a bad thing, to want your family be safe.

Heh. Had my hubster been in the mob? Well, that would be quite shocking (*hee*) and would induce a lot of fights I bet, but I'd keep in mind that some things are kept from you because it's safer not knowing. It's a two edged blade thing. Would I want to know the truth? Yes. But would it really make a difference what he did in the past if he was out and wanted to make a new life for himself because the old life was very dangerous? Could I be upset about that as much as had there been another woman in his life? Both lies yes, but from a very different circustance. If he did it to actually protect me, then I'd agree that it would be best to be kept in the dark. How could he be protecting me, had he another family out there? To keep my heart from breaking? Well, I'd take the "not getting killed" over the "cheating bastard" -bit secrecy a whole lot better. If he had another family, that wouldn't make him such a good person now would it? And the only one he'd be protecting, would be his own ass. I can't compare. There are two sides of these things ofcourse, but it's just a matter of "when/if we get to that, we'll deal with it. Or not". It's all about the "why", not the lie itself, sometimes atleast.

I agree a lot on Dean & Lisa front. But to me, they were together out of a promise made and a woman wanting her kid to have a dad-figure. I'm sure that started to turn into something more, but it was a very bad timing indeed. And since Lisa showed how she really felt in the Veritas eppie, she definitely had "some" resentment she had kept from him for some time. So did they really have something "real" if he didn't see all that coming? And did she really feel that strongly or was it just emphasized by the spell (or what ever it was)? We'll never know. So, on the paper, they would've worked for me, but on the screen, it felt a little forced. And that vampire thing was just bizarre since she knew about supernatural, so it wouldn't have really been that big of a shock (about them being real), she was way more upset that Dean showed Ben and didn't really have a "reason" for it (which was dumb, not telling her about why he'd done it). And it was dumb of him to go there, to put them at risk like that, but I'd figure, they did that just to gain some drama more than actually thinking what Dean'd really do. Not just creepily stalk in to the bedroom and then freak out. Well, there was the whole "vampire" -thing cramping his style so I'll give him that much.

Wow. Let's talk next week when you've finished reading this :D
Supernarttu
# Supernarttu 2012-06-25 15:26
Eep, jumping in to just comment about What is and what should never be. It wasn't just an AU, it was an AU created by Dean. Maybe that was his fear (not "reality" per se) that he and Sam wouldn't get along had there not been hunting in their lives. I took it as that, a world Dean created out of a single wish. And his insecurities played a big part when he was imagining himself "a loser"ish type a guy.

So I'm not taking that as "a reality, had Mary lived".
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 14:44
Great post, Supernarttu! Sam and Jessica seemed to have a very solid relationship in the Pilot - as did John and Mary - so I'm not sure why some think the relationships would have failed or fizzled out. All relationships go through trials, but I think J/M and S/J could have overcome those obstacles/trial s.

Sam was very much in love with Jessica! We even see him dreaming about her in the 5th season. As you said, I don't think his hesitance or resistance to tell her about his childhood indicated that he didn't trust her; it says more about Sam's own insecurities, etc. And like you said, Sam left the hunting lifestyle behind so I can see why he never talked about it. He never embraced it and didn't want to be apart of it.

I also agree that Dean never loved Lisa. Dean remembered Lisa because he had a great night (or weekend) of sex with her. That's all. He looked her up in the hopes that they could have another great night (or weekend) of sex. It's not like he remembered her wonderful personality and great heart. He couldn't have because he didn't know her.

That's why her inclusion that Season 5 made no sense to me. How could Lisa and Ben be what Dean thinks of when he's happy when he doesn't know her? How could Lisa invite Dean into her home to live when she doesn't know him? Their entire relationship rang false to me. It was contrived and forced.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-24 15:19
Iala2, may I ask, why do you use Sam dreaming of Jessica (and that was Lucifer in action) as proof that he loved her yet twice we saw Dean dreaming of Lisa and you say he didn’t love her.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 20:28
I completely agree w/both of Pentadactyl's posts.

The reason I mentioned Sam's dream of Jessica in FTBYAM is b/c some others seemed to express disbelief or uncertainty that Sam loved Jessica b/c of the demons getting them together. I don't think Brady's introducing them had anything to do w/them ultimately falling in love w/each other. They seem very solid in the Pilot, and there's nothing to suggest that Jessica and Sam don't really love each other.

To me, the fact that Lucifer knew the best way to get Sam to open up was through Jessica says a lot about Sam's feelings for her. The fact that dream "Jessica" could make Sam feel bad says that Sam really loved her and cared about her opinion of him. I liked the consistency of using Jessica in FTBYAM. That was Sam's one true love. As Pentadactyl said, Sam spoke to her as if he were really conversing w/her. Five years later and Jessica is still the woman on Sam's mind; she's still the one that can "get" to him.

Dean's dream of Lisa in DALDOM had nothing, IMO, to do with Dean "loving" Lisa. That was the year that Dean was set to die. I think Dean was doing a lot of reflection on his life and how he would was never going ot have a family. Plus in that first episode w/Lisa, we see Dean thinking, or assuming, that Ben may be his son. I think Dean liked the idea quite a bit and was sad when Lisa told him it wasn't true. Dean liked Ben and thought he was a nice kid. The dream in DALDOM shows us what Dean wants: a family. Did he want family w/Lisa? Sure, but I still don't think it shows he loves her. I can't forget that Dean never really knew her. Even in the first episode where Lisa appears, Dean spends more time w/Ben than Lisa. To me, the dream symbolized a desire Dean has to have a family w/someone like Lisa, not necessarily her.

The next time we see Dean dream is in Season 4, and it's not about Lisa. Actually, I think we see him dream twice in that season - once about strippers and the next was him fishing on the lake. Now, I'm not saying every time they show Dean dreaming, it must be of Ben/Lisa, but we went basically a year and a half or almost two years w/no mention of Lisa until that wacky episode where Dean went to her door. No dialogue that they had been keeping in touch or that Dean visited on occasion, making his statement about her and Ben being his "happy" place contrived and forced to me.

We do see him dreaming of her in 6.02, I believe. By then, Dean has lived w/Lisa for one year so I do think he cares about her and Ben. I just don't think he was ever "in love" w/her. When "Sam" returned, Dean was quickly set to ditch Lisa/Ben. Lisa even knew that so she tried to guilt trip him into staying b/c of Ben. Dean does stay but why? Because something came after L/B, and now, Dean felt obligated to remain w/them to keep them safe. Dean says that to "Sam" in EOMS. I never got the sense Dean was staying b/c he loved them. He only went to them b/c Sam made him promise to go to them.

The Dean/Lisa affair is just extremely contrived, forced, and poorly written, IMO. At the end of the day, I think Dean cared about her, but that's it. I don't think he was ever in love with her.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-26 17:13
I was loathe to get involved in this again but one aspect of your comment confused the crap out of me. It’s highly possible I’m interpreting these two comments wrong but you stated re Dean and Lisa:

Quote:
.....but we went basically a year and a half or almost two years w/no mention of Lisa until that wacky episode where Dean went to her door. No dialogue that they had been keeping in touch or that Dean visited on occasion, making his statement about her and Ben being his "happy" place contrived and forced to me.
And re: Sam with Jessica
Quote:
The fact that dream "Jessica" could make Sam feel bad says that Sam really loved her and cared about her opinion of him. I liked the consistency of using Jessica in FTBYAM. That was Sam's one true love.
To me, here we have the exact same criteria in almost identical situations but there’s a different conclusion drawn from each situation.

Sam wasn’t shown to be thinking about Jessica for almost four years (Bloody Mary 1.05 to Free to Be You and Me 5.03. Hell, we can push it to Provenance 1.19 because Sam was initially hesitant to get involved with Sarah Blake out of respect for Jessica, so just under 3 ½ years) yet her appearance in 5.03 is being used as proof of how much he loved her.

Dean wasn’t shown to be thinking about Lisa for just over two years (Dream a Little Dream of Me 3.10 and 99 Problems 5.17) yet that similar situation is being held up as proof that he didn’t love her!

Quote:
I don't think Brady's introducing them had anything to do w/them ultimately falling in love w/each other.
May I ask, if we were not meant to question aspects of the relationship (and that’s all I’m doing, questioning. I never said Sam didn’t love Jessica), then why did the show have Sam bring to light the fact that Brady introduced him to Jessica in the first place? The added tension between them wasn’t needed at that stage so why do it?

It’s really hard to know who loves (loved) whom in this show any more because every single relationship can be picked apart and held up for scrutiny. Does Dean love Sam or does he just feel responsible for him? Does Sam love Dean or does he feel oppressed by him? Did Mary love John or did she just want to get away from her father? The list is endless and an argument could be made for and against each of them. From here on in I’m going to go with they all loved each other and add the infamous Prince Charles disclaimer ‘Whatever love means’.
misty
# misty 2012-06-24 12:25
AMEN Nita, this was what I was talking about! Where Dean goes crazy for a woman and can't get enough of her! Sam too!
ROMANCE!
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-22 07:16
Madly in love, they were not, that's sure. Not Dean for Lisa, but neither the other way around.

And yeah, we did get to see Sam having a real lover, etc, but that was long time ago, too long. It was mostly pre-series, when Sam was not a hunter, and not as broken as he is now. Dean was never Sam, though, and I actually think the only kind of love he's known is for his family.

From what we've seen, hunting is forever, hunters don't get to have a normal life, hunters rarely grow old. And Sam and Dean's lives are even worse than other hunters' and are probably even more scarred than John, Bobby, or any other 50+ hunter we've seen.

Even further, how I read it, Lisa's arc served to prove us that exactly, regardless that Dean was not in love with her: he thinks his place is hunting, and that life will always catch him. It was insinuated for Sam too, when he married Becky this season, with Dean's phrase about his lover's life expectancy (and Sam's practical celibacy)

I'd love to see some happiness for the boys sometimes, and I understand in our culture that, for many people, translates as having a bf/gf/wife/husb and. But due to the nature of the show and the hunter's life, I don't think that's gonna happen, or last more than a couple episodes.

But that's just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe another hunter could take that role. I don't know. I just find it difficult to believe but wouldn't oppose to it if handled properly.
misty
# misty 2012-06-22 16:33
Ok everybody, I guess I really stirred things up here.
As far as Sam and Jess, and Sam and Madison, it was mentioned on the show about them being great loves, well Jess being great love, and how Sam 'found love again' with Madison. Their words not mine. But then Tim here did make a good point that we actually didn't get to witness the great romance between Sam and Jess, just heard about it.
Hey guys, I really love Sam, honestly I do. I'm not coming against him in any way. I won't lie and not say Dean is my favorite, he is, but that doesn't mean I don't love Sam and I want to see great story arcs for him too. And I know because of the nature of the show and the family business neither brother can have a steady relationship per se. But I want to see both guys have romances however brief, and especially for me Dean because I'd really like to see that side of him, and he's been so damned depressed and morose for so long he needs a little joy, not just a cheesy one night stand, but ROMANCE. Sam too. Hey, can't Carver just write a fun episode where the guys end up working with a pair of attractive female hunters and they mix work with pleasure? LOL what does anybody else think of that idea?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-22 16:47
Oh romance definitely. But for me I just need something more than a few days for me to become really invested in the character or to make anything approaching love look realistic.
But a romance thing, like what Sam had with Sarah except (with copious amounts of sex), I'm down with that. For both guys. Especially if they could have return visits (with copious amounts of sex). I think that would be good........for the characters I mean. I mean if we HAD to have more than 1 shirtless scene (or a couple dozen-a piece) I would just have to accept that that is what is good for the characters

I personally didn't take like you were dogging Sam, I was just explaining how I saw the relationships.
Nita
# Nita 2012-06-23 00:52
Misty, like you, I want to see Dean fall in love and am tired of them showing him as someone promiscuous. Come on you SPN writers and directors. These men are like 30 and over, they are human and they need love! One can compare hunters to say people like James Bond or Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible or heroes in any violent saga, and all of these guys have love at some point in their life.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-22 12:16
Lala2 and emmau, I completely understood before about Dean's depression getting progressively worse over the seasons and I even understood when it ebb a little at times. AND I understand why it wasn’t really dealt with for the first six seasons, because for me it was part of the storyline. You know, the gun-ho hunter who believes completely in what they are doing, who even thinks Sam going to college was wrong because what they do is important (if deep down he wanted an apple pie life too). Turning in S2 into kind of angry gun ho hunter, whose pain was right beneath the surface as well as a desire to get out before he lost the only family he had left. (throw in his dad's deal and last words and his growing fears about Sam and poor kid was a mess).

Then he did lose the person he loves most and saw it as a complete failure on his part. So he sells his soul and is even happier for a while because he has Sam back, he finally did something right(as HE sees it not me) and made up for his dad selling his soul for him. The desperation and fear are there but he buries them until Sam forcing him to deal with them.

When he get back he's fells weak and depressed for breaking, but figures he can make up for things because the angels and God have big plans for me. But sinks into one is lowest moments when he finds out he broke the last seal. And his relationship with Sam is iffy at best and he sees his dad's warning coming true. After finding out the angels are complete dicks, the big fight, the betrayal and Lucifer. I think he was white knuckling it all S5. He broke with Sam and said he felt better but became even more desperate after seeing his possible future and what he and Sam turned into. So he reconciles with Sam and shoves everything down. And doesn't deal -and doesn't -and doesn't deal and things look more and more hopeless. Until he cracks upon seeing Sam detox again and fully breaks when he after heaven.

Depression becomes SI and he lashes out at Sam because in his pain he sees complete betrayal again. After all isn't Sam's heaven getting away from him. He tosses the amulet because he wants Sam to hurt as badly as he does and because suicidal people start
getting rid of things. Decides to says yes, but pulls back and gets a little better until he realizes he has to let Sam jump to show he believes him again and this is what Sam needs to do for himself. So no matter how much it’s killing him he has to let him do it. After that IMO he's running on fumes until Sam does jumped. The only reason he doesn't kill himself at that point is because Sam knew he wanted a family and makes him promise to go live that life.

So the uber-hunter of S1 becomes the one with the life that Sam had wanted and Dean had disdained. It had a literary symmetry to it. And we know how much Chuck likes that.

So what I was trying to say with the second volume of my book series, Obsessing About the Winchester’s, is that I saw that all being interconnected with his storyline. If the writers dealt too much with his pain and depression then he wouldn't have done some of the things he did or made the mistakes he made. For instance a well-balanced person does not sell his soul. SO they needed him to still be on edge throughout that arc. And in S6 he was working to get Sam’s soul and then was just so happy to have his Sammy back that that nothing else could get through. Until Cas' betrayal, Lisa and Ben being kidnapped and Cas bringing down Sam's wall. Then all that stuff came washing back. So it made perfect sense to me that they would deal with it this year.

I thought GREAT they can deal with it in a realistic way because it would be perfectly reasonable that he was losing it. I didn’t even mind that being his storyline this year, because I figured that meant at the end of the year we’d get some version of the uber-hunter back. Obviously not the same guy but some who believe in himself, who believed in hunting and saving people and saw the value in what he does. But we didn’t- we kind of got nothing. No resolution and no indication that they really remembered that they had started something at the beginning of the season. I really thought that Sam’s and his storylines were going to overlap when Sam went crazy. That Dean would completely lose for a bit but then have some epiphany and comes to Sam’s rescue and even with using Cas that would have been great. But instead we got him in the car a lot (not even the Impala) with Cas AND MEG UGGH. And not a lot of urgency to his actions. He definitely saved Sam but really he could have been working any other case, for all his passion for it. I FIND IT INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING.

I am hoping against hope that this will be picked up and resolved in season 2. It ties for my number two in my requests for next season along with getting insight into what is going on with Sam.

I even thought perhaps the Amy thing was apart of this. Showing that he wasn’t thinking clearly, since he killed without any kind of consideration that we saw and then lied about to Sam, who considered him his stone #1. Considering Cas and Sam’s betrayal when he was on DB, an inability to trust anything with supernatural qualities, regardless of the situation, would seem reasonable. If cold. BUT he just ended up being completely inconsistent on when he killed things. Despite never openly questioned any decision (other than lying to Sam) or addressed any inconsistencies in his own behavior. AGAIN – INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING.

This is the # 4 thing on my list I want addressed. #1 of course is the brothers’ relationship and where did it go and why?

Sorry about the book again.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-22 14:56
I think where we differ is that at this point, I don’t see Dean’s depression as a storyline, at least not anymore. It’s Dean’s state of mind for the last 6 seasons. It’s no more a storyline than Sam’s anger is—in fact it was pretty much equivalent to Sam’s hell storyline this year. Neither one was a dynamic storyline that pushed the plot forward—insid e of storylines, we got mental health updates every so often for both boys. For Sam, these updates remained stagnant between 7.3 and 7.15, to be hastily (and sloppily) resolved in 7.17. Dean’s depression never changed throughout the season. The powers that be changed the alleged reasons behind it every so often, from trust issues to lying to Bobby’s death to Castiel’s insanity etc, but his mental state itself never changed—unles s they switched to an earlier season characterizatio n, like they did in 7.14. And don’t get me wrong—I loved 7.14 because it was just fun in the middle of all the nihilism, but neither Sam nor Dean’s mental states seemed consistent with the episodes that came before or after it.

I think you’ve mapped the progression of Dean’s depression very well, from S2 to now. I’m not saying it’s not consistent and understandable. I understand exactly how he got to that point. My problem is that show does nothing with it. To me, it’s equivalent to watching Sam press his hand and wince for 12 episodes in a row with no movement, except for Dean it’s been season after season. It might get a little better for a few episodes, a little worse for a few episodes, but basically Dean’s been stuck in a holding pattern for 6 years. Worse than that, the writers use this as a crutch, substituting “Dean will question what it means to be a hunter” for an active storyline time and time again.

Worst of all for me, though, the only time they seem to address it is to criticize Dean for being depressed and that depression’s side effects like the drinking, with a seemingly endless succession of “Boo hoo, you’re doing it wrong” speeches. I think it does give fans reason to look down on Dean as well, because show is delivering the message loud and clear that it’s reasonable to view someone who is being crushed under depression to the point of not being apathetic about everything he used to love as “whiny”, “weak”, “pathetic”, etc. That’s horrifying in a real world context. Yet they won’t let him move on or gain any resolution, because Jensen does angst well and God forbid they actually stretch to give him an active role in the story. He gets no credit for going on despite all of his issues, saving people, saving Sam, and doing the job, just more criticism. As a Dean fan,I find all of this extremely frustrating, because he’s again in a no-win situation. At this point, I don’t know whether to hope for some form of resolution or to just hope they’d drop it if they’re never going to resolve anything. Surely they can mine Dean in purgatory for something more than Dean has issues dealing and questions what it means to be a hunter, take 7.

So to sum up, I agree that Dean’s depression is understandable and consistent throughout the last six seasons. I disagree at this point that it’s a storyline, because it’s not a dynamic story—nothing really changes or gets resolved, and it generally has nothing to do with the overall mytharc or story of the season. Instead, it’s just used to give Jensen something to do (and he’s good at it, but I’m sure he’d like to do something else with the character) and as a club to knock Dean down more, and I find it incredibly tiresome and frustrating.

So my S8 list reads 1) make the brothers the focus of the show again by giving them both dynamic storylines as well as an emotional arc, 2) actually address the brotherly bond and make me believe it’s more than just a partnership of both convenience and mutual misery, 3) give me a big bad that is actually menacing and interesting to watch [and leave your political/socia l commentary at the door, because it’s not scary], 4) use secondary and guest characters wisely so that they enhance the brothers’ story, instead of taking over, undermining Sam and Dean as heroes, and pushing your leads to the background, and 5) for the love of God, pacing. Please work on the pacing.

I’m not sure the wish list probably doesn’t belong on yet another page, but I’m leaving it here.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-22 15:01
Wow, that was really ranty, wasn't it? See, emmau, this is what happens when you pull out the soap box. Thanks for letting me get all that out, though.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-22 16:33
I didn't think it was ranty. I believe or not I don't think we disagree if I reading you correctly. Because I DON'T think depression was a storyline THIS year. I was trying to say that I thought it was going to be and maybe it was supposed to be if so whatever they we're going for didn't come across. I was trying to contrast with the previous years, when his mental state interwove within his storyline.

He had every reason to be depressed this season and it WOULD have been a good time to do something with and resolve it but they didn't. Unless it was all a set up from some spectacular storyline next year, I'm still being a Pollyanna that maybe their just letting the fans lose their minds and then have something that connects all this in S8, so they can go PSYCH! Yeah I know unlikely.

Loved all your suggestions, except the social commentary didn't really bother me, but I do think the story's better when linked to the Winchester's. And it was a bit heavy-handed at time.

I feel like I'm completely non-stop bashing this season. But I absolutely LOVED A LOT of the episodes. I would rate a lot of the other pretty high. Even the ones I didn't like I was mostly about it's connection (or lack of connection) to the over all season storyline. (Except for Defending Your Life that was not a good episode and it's sad because it had so much potential.) Like the Shut Dr. Phil, I don't know if I would ever LOVE that episodes (despite having a crush on James Marsters). But it could easily get up to really like it, if taken separately from the whole season. But as it is, it kind of pisses me off, NO REALLY PISSES ME OFF, because Dean made this whole huge thing about killing Amy because she was killing people TO SAVE HER SON and then he basically turns around and lets 2 witches go who were killing for spite. YEAH REALLY REALLY PISSES ME OFF. It's just bad writing for the season. I want to slap the upside the head and go don't just watch you're own episodes dumbass (Now THAT was ranty).

If wouldn't bother me quite so much if they had just address the issues. Like had Dean say "Let's find a new spell before they can skip town" and then the Leviathan arrives and Stark walks in -saves them and says "we'll be gone before you get this messed cleaned up" or something-anyth ing to justify letting them live when Amy had to die what 3 episodes before. ARGGH. At at least wait till later in the season so it's not so obvious.'Cause even my sister, the Dean girl but who didn't like the Amy kill, was pissed at that one.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-22 17:29
I think we do agree, because while I always felt like depression was the lynchpin of Dean’s storyline from year to year, it was usually wrapped in something to make it seem like there was more substance there. Lisa/Ben, vesseldom, mourning John—I mean, sure all of those things eventually disappeared leaving us with nothing but depression, but at least there was a pretense. This year, it was straight up nothing but “how Dean feels about hunting (hint—not good).”

I further agree that if they were actually going to do something with Dean’s issues, including-GASP- resolving some of them, that would have been something. They indeed had plenty of opportunity to do some exploration with Castiel, Bobby, even Amy (ugh). But they did nothing, and nothing changed. Dean mentally was in the exact same place at the beginning of the season as at the end, which was the same place he was at the beginning and end of S6. There was definitely consistency for Dean in the Gamble era, but in this case that wasn’t a good thing. I think that’s why Jeremy Carver’s arrival is so exciting for me—it brings a measure of hope that things might different in S8.

I’m just not much for social commentary in my entertainment on either side. If I wanted to watch the news/political commentary, I would. And they really, really went heavy-handed this year, to the point I was rolling my eyes saying, “YES, I GET IT, THANKS FOR SPELLING OUT YOUR FEELINGS FOR ME, PTB.” I want the show to center around Sam and Dean, not what the powers that be want to teach me today.

I think there were some good episodes this season, but as an overall story it just didn’t hang together well. Now, yes, there were also some complete clunkers. DYL had a ton of potential, but like Dean’s depression storyline, went over the same territory we’ve already covered and resolved nothing. Shut Up, Dr. Phil felt a bit like OMG, GUYS, LOOK WE HAVE BUFFY ALUMNI!!! And I liked both Carpenter and Marsters, but they should not be the stars of the show. Honestly, I never understand why Dean is supposed to take all of the rap for what happened at the end of that episode, though. Sam was there, he knew they’d killed people, and he’d let them go, too. I don’t think Sam didn’t argue because he found their lives so sacred—I think it’s because Sam and Dean were clearly outmatched and because show has always shied away from having Sam and Dean kill witches. I’ve found that odd before, considering show had Sam and Dean both kill evil humans this season, but for some reason not witches. I think it’s because they were played by Buffy alumni and they were leaving the door open for them to come back if the ratings shot up.

But it does indicate a larger writing issue I had this season—the writers seemed to be writing in a vacuum. It’s like they assigned certain writers to certain episodes and then had them work independently of each other so that the stand-alones all seemed disjointed from both each other and from the overall story. But it was at this point that I basically gave up on episode to episode continuity—if they didn’t care, why should I?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-22 18:23
I agree with everything except for the outmatched. They had taken Azazel, Lilith and Lucifer and won. But they're going to let a couple witches go because they were too hard. The guy Mrs Stark killed only crime was working on the same project as the women who had cheated with her husband And even adultery isn't a capitol offense and neither is being a bitchy friend. But again I would have been okay if they just used a few lines of dialogue to explain it way.

I don't want to be a Gamble basher. But this is one thing Kripke seemed to better at IMO. I think things like that bugged him too, so if there was an easy fix, he'd have them do it.

Also agree about the vacuum and I don't know if that was Gamble or Singer responsibility but I feel like it should be Carver S8. Singer's a decent writer and a good director, but I don't feel like he always gets the heart of the show sometimes.

I was watching Kim Manners at the Paley Fest from 2006 and he was saying his favorite scene so far (this was mid S1) was the scene in Shadows where Dean says he wants them to be a family again and also the reunion with their dad. He was one of the greatest action directors but he knew what was truly important about the show was those moments.

I feel like they've cut down those scenes way down to focus on a plot that wasn't extremely exciting. And maybe it's just me, but I would have a lot fewer gripes if they'd skipped some of the plot, left a few more hole and given me more insight into what was happening with the brothers. Ideally I want a tight script, with a exciting storylines and lots of heart. This season we often didn't get any of that. Hopefully Carver will change that.

But I never gave up, I kept thinking they were going to pull it out. Heck I'm still pulling for S8 to explain at least part of went on in S7. HA HA!
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-22 18:48
Well, now, in a sane world I would agree with you. But in the latter years, I think it started to become amazing the boys could cope with anything. In S1-2, they pretty much on their own. Then all of the sudden they could barely do research, needing Bobby to hold their hands to figure out what they were dealing with. Then there was the endless cavalcade of guest stars, from angels to nerd hunters to children to rogue Leviathans, whom Sam and Dean had to rely on in order to survive/complet e a hunt. In the witch episode, not only did they have no choice to play couples' therapists instead of ending the murderous threat, they then had to be saved by one of them. So expecting Sam and Dean to actually take care of evil on their own became a pretty tall order, in my opinion.

Honestly, I'm not a big Gamble supporter. I think she writers good individual episodes, even some great ones, but I don't think she did that great a job as a show runner. I do think Kripke, even though he had his moments, seemed a little more interested in the details. The last two years, episodes seemed to start with one idea or message with everything else built around it, despite characterizatio n issues, continuity issues, or logic gaps. that's only my opinion, though. I wouldn't say Bob Singer's hands are clean here by any means, but Sera was the show-runner (until this year, when Bob suddenly became co-), so for me the buck stops with her. I don't think Bob gets it all the time either (his early S8 spoilers made me cringe a bit), but hopefully Jeremy Carver can keep that in check.

I think losing Kim Manners was a big blow for this show. I'm not sure we knew how much he contributed until he was gone. I think he really got the heart of the show in a way that almost no one does.

I would agree that the heart scenes have been cut for plot that people aren't enthralled by in the first place. I can think of two episodes (7.17 and 7.23) that had lines in the previews that were mroe on teh emotional side that ended up cut from the episode. It might have helped if the mytharc was better, but let's face it--this show is still around because people care about Sam, Dean, and their bond. I agree--tight scripts with action, original ideas, and lots of heart would be ideal. That's not too tall an order, Jeremy, right?
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-22 18:58
I didn't have as much of a problem with S6 that she was doing by herself-officia lly anyway. Yeah there were problems with pacing. But I thought it had a lot that this season lacked. And since they were transitioning over from a 5 year arc, I gave it a little leeway too. So that's why I wondered if some of the editing and continuity fell on his shoulders.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-22 21:10
I have very mixed feelings about S6, much like S7. There are individual episodes I liked, but as a whole it hangs together about as roughly as S7, in my opinion. If you don't mind (and please don't think I'm being facetious, because I'm genuinely curious), could you tell me what you feel S6 did better than S7?

I can agree with allowing for some leeway because of the newness of the position, but I just don't understand the problem with coming off the 5 year arc. That, to me, means that the landscape was wide open. Show could have done anything, gone any direction. I do wonder what the division of responsibilitie s entailed, and how it all went down last year and this year, though I doubt we ever will.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-22 23:53
When Gamble took over, "Sam" was out of the cage, but they still had to try to explain his release in some fashion that had consequences. Dean was living with Lisa and done hunting. Plus also the build up all the way back to YED was over. They had conquered all the big bads. Up to this point each season had built on the last. The clean slate meant they had to create a new big bad that could live up to Lucifer. That's pretty hard. Also now that Cas had his full powers they had to make sure, he didn't become the easy fix to all their problems.

Sam being brought back soulless was definitely a consequence and an extremely interesting concept to me. Because the real Sam was still in the cage, but Dean still had to deal with this not!Sam because anything his body did or anything that happen to Sam's body would mean still have consequences for Sam when he got back.

Plus I thought they did the build up to figuring out what was wrong with him well and one episode, Live Free or Twihard was incredible. I've said before, every person I know had the exact same reaction to Sam's creepy smile while let Dean get turned. "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH SAM?" It was a fantastic. Add that to all the Twilight in jokes. I'm a happy girl.

The next episode was also really good but those last 10 minutes, when Dean figures out that this is definitely not his Sammy. And then proceeds to beat the crap out of him. That was terrific. The next one is alright but ADGtH was meh. But then we have Clap if You Believe. FREAKIN' HILAROUS -if all writers wrote soulless Sam as good as Edlund I probably could have taken even more episodes. Unfortunately that was not the case. And I missed my Sammy. But the last two with Robo Sam WERE really good.

Then we had Like a Virgin. I have trouble telling how many times I've watched that reunion- beautiful. Sam was beautiful and Dean was SO HAPPY. We rarely see Dean that happy. Making dumb jokes that had me cracking up, smiling when Sam used the puppy-dog eyes of that girl and trying to get that sword out that stone OMG. Have I mentioned I totally love Dean. Who cares if the dragons were lame that was a great episode. It's hard to believe it was Adam Glass.

Mannequin 3 was not great but even it had a couple good brothers scene. Dean was being all protective big bro. I tell you I'm willing to forgive a lot for good bro mo's

And I had no problems really with the rest of the season. (I adored both The French Mistake and The Man Who Would be King-both Ben Edlund at his finest). I know some people where mad because they built up the Mother of All and she wasn't the big bad. But I saw that as just a red herring so that didn't bother me and I loved how Dean took her out.
And the last episode was also absolutely fabulous and set up things for this year wonderfully and they took advantage ---for the 1st 2 episodes.

And I loved how everything ended up inner connecting with the souls. But not in a heavy-handed way IMO. (I agree this year's did get a little so at times). And by making Cas the big bad they temporarily solved the problem of him fixing everything AND set up the situation where he is not the ultimate fix-it man this year and possible next. In fact, as much as I hope that is not the last we hear of Sam's problems. I thought that was one of the best inspirations of the year to keep Cas on. By taking on Sam's crazy and being a pacifist racked with guilt he's is considerably less helpful than before.

I only I had a few problems with 6. The Campbells- as much as I love Mitch Pileggi, I just didn't think it worked that well. They didn't give Samuel a good enough motivation for his actions. It never made sense to me why he would agree to leave heaven to have the chance to bring his daughter out of heaven, making a demon deal in the process. (Now if he'd been in hell and thought his daughter was too-that would have been interesting.) And the idea that he loved her so much he would do that but kill her kids didn't work. But since they didn't really drag it out-that was okay. I did like Caged Heat, Family Matters was alright and I loved Then There Were None.

Also the pacing was a little off and I thought soulless Sam needed most interesting writing or to cut out a couple episodes. So anyway that's the reasons.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 01:20
Thank you for explaining your thinking about season 6. Let me share my thoughts on S6, and we can discuss if you like. I can see how having the doors wide open could be daunting, because there really wasn’t a building block like the previous seasons had had to start with, other than Sam’s out. To me, it would be exciting to create a new big bad and a new mythology. I think one of the big problems was the decision to go noir. I’ve been told they did it right, but it felt more like wasting time and not having a plan, rather than a carefully planned series of false starts, suspects, and whatnot. Maybe that’s because it was episodic tv spread out over months, instead of a 2 hour movie or a book. Personally, I always felt like there was a change mid-season—I think soulless Sam was supposed to last all year, and when the fans’ outcry got too loud, they scrapped it and had to scramble. So the season ended up not feeling like it had a big bad, because it didn’t feel like the season could settle on a through line of what was supposed to be happening and who was doing what. I could be wrong and it was brilliantly laid out, but perception is reality to a viewer, and my perception was that they were fumbling around by the second half. Do you have thoughts on that?

I do think Sam coming back at the end of S5 did leave them with a problem to tackle, because how do you make your finale weighty when it basically led to no consequences? How do you show hell damage without it feeling like a carbon copy of Dean's? Going soulless was an interesting idea—I think one of the biggest problems at the outset of the season was the time jump, which is why later show acted like that didnt' happen. Like S4, it set Sam up from the get-go in a poor position, because he looked cruel for leaving Dean alone for a year, and by the time we got the full explanation, did it really make it better? Not for me. But logistically there were other issues. It didn’t make sense that Bobby would let Dean mourn and drown in depression while knowing his brother was alive. It didn’t make sense Bobby wouldn’t see that Sam leaving Dean to mourn him that was cruel and therefore un-Sam-like. It didn’t make sense that robo-Sam didn’t care about Dean at all until the premiere, when suddenly he wanted Dean by his side? There was no rhyme or reason for Sam to want Dean around, though Dean chasing Sam made sense. I never figured out why roboSam was so determined, because his “It just feels better when you’re around” was a lie since he had no feelings (except when he did, but I’m getting to that). No one treated Dean like he was a good or competent hunter, so why was robo-Sam so determined to have him along?

I agree that the build-up to figuring out what was wrong with Sam was well done from 6.1 to 6.5 (skipping 6.4, which was more of a stand-alone with no connection to the other episodes). I think Live Free or Twihard was a well done episode, and it really hammered home that Sam came back wrong. But the flip side of that for me was that I then utterly hated soulless Sam and had no desire to see him on my screen any further. So that was problematic. In fact, it was the reason I didn’t care one bit what Dean did to him at the end of YCHTT—it seemed he deserved every bit of it. I never believed his “I need help” act. ADGtH was meh. I’m not sure what the point of that episode was, other than to bring working for Crowley blackmail into the mix. The littlest hobo murdering dog and his family—was that supposed to be a metaphor for Dean and Lisa/Ben at that point? Adam Glass, oy. I only truly enjoyed his Mommy Dearest.

Clap if You Believe was cute, but it was ultimately problematic because you can’t show me robo-Sam feeding Dean to vampires and then expect me to find his “Your soul ways are strange to me” schtick cute. It wasn’t. Show couldn’t make up its mind whether he was a soulless bad guy who knew social conventions but didn’t care or a robot who was unaccustomed to human emotions, motivations, etc. In All Dogs robo-Sam flat out told Dean he didn’t care about him. In Clap Your Hands he didn’t care if fairies abducted Dean or what happened to him. But suddenly in Caged Heat he’s determined to save him? He wants Dean around, but then he doesn’t care about him, but then he saves him? He wants his soul, but then he doesn’t? He’s emotionless until he’s angry with Cas for not answering him, he’s scared of getting his soul back, etc. Poor Jared had to play the same character 7 different ways, and it just made no sense.

In the midst of all this, Dean was trapped once again in the dual “storylines† he always gets—big brother and depression. The Lisa/Ben storyline was essentially over in 6.2 when she sent him away, and then we had to deal with two more headshots in 6.5 and 6.6, each of which lasted one scene. But for fun, he got to hear how rusty he was and have everyone argue with him about saving his brother’s soul, which made no sense. Everyone told him it was mutilated . . . so they figured they’d just leave it there? That made no sense either, except to build conflict that shouldn’t have been there. That was painful. I was thrilled when Sam’s soul returned, and that was a good finale to the first half, except for the fact that Dean's lesson with Death ended up being, "You can't change destiny", which was the complete antithesis of the message of the 5 season arc we'd just finished. But I was happy enough to have real Sam back to overlook that.

Now in the second half, you have Like a Virgin. The reunion was single-handedly the best part. The dragon was lame, the MoA was ultimately a waste of time, so on rewatch I just don’t care. Sam completely ignoring Dean’s concerns about the wall and picking at it anyway wasn’t endearing, but I could see why he wondered. His guilt issues carried over to the next episode, and then disappeared. Not that I thought he should have to feel guilty, but what was the point of bringing it up and then just ignoring it? Why does show have Sam express guilt for things done to strangers, but never deal with the vamping or things done to Bobby and Dean? Honestly, show, prioritize.

Anyway, Unforgiven was great for flashbacks but terrible in terms of Dean and Sam for me. I hated the manipulative “Well, I’m going to do this and pick at the wall you put in to save my sanity, so you can come watch me do it and pick up the pieces. Or not, but who are we kidding? We know you’ll come anyway.” Drove me nuts. The last scene was the best part there in terms of brotherly conversation/co ncern, and it was nice to see some consequences for scratching the wall.

Mannequin 3 was another chance for show to beat a dead horse with Lisa/Ben, except now to put the blame for their separation on Dean because he didn’t return her calls after she broke up with him? The MotW was horrible. That was just a bad episode for me. The brother moments were only slight flashes of light.

Granted the second half picked up from there. 6.15-6.20 were good episodes. 6.15 and 6.18 were just fun, 6.20 was touching, and 6.16 was a great piece of horror. I did hate that the MoA turned out to be nothing but a red herring, because why are you wasting my time with it then? Maybe that was part of my problem as an admitted Dean fan—one of the very few things you let him kill that season, and it turned out to be completely unimportant. Why am I not surprised? That was another thing that felt like the PTB were grasping around, trying to figure out what to do before ultimately settling on Castiel suddenly turning into the villain. Which I’ll admit they built well from 6.15 on, but looking at the early episodes it really feels like they were written without this ending in place. Castiel was not a good enough actor, going by how he was depicted in the second half, for the lies he had to be telling in the first half for that to have been endgame all along. That was problematic, too. Still, that was a great run of episodes.

Then we hit 6.21, which was Gamble once again dragging us to the Ben/Lisa well for no particular reason except for more Jensen angst, as it resolved nothing since we’d already beaten the dead horse into the ground that they couldn’t be together and Dean couldn’t have a normal life. Its only purpose was to shut the door permanently on them because fans had hated the storyline all year, as far as I could tell.

The last episode was pretty good, despite once again making Dean wallpaper, but I felt like Sam’s journey through his own head was a bit of a missed opportunity, because we really didn’t learn anything new about him. It was great to get a chance to see his POV, and Jared did a fantastic job, but really, did we learn anything about him that we didn’t know already? Oh, well. It did set up the next season well, but look what they did with that.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 01:21
Talk about writing a book--my comment was apparently too long to be contained in one setting. :oops: Let me finish up.

Maybe it’s my own dislike for noir, but I hated the time wasted with the Campbells, who weren’t compelling and then were killed off before they were even given a chance to make sense or become interesting, the MoA, the alphas, and the other sideplots that went nowhere. I think the soulless Sam arc was mostly well done, except no one could remember how a person with no soul was supposed to act, and I disliked him so much I just wanted him off my screen. I didn’t want to watch Dean corral him or teach him how to be a real boy or try to outwit him when robo-Sam decided to sell him out for the price of a Coke. I was happy when his soul came back (and Death continues to be awesome). Once the wall went up and he scratched once in Unforgiven it disappeared until the finale, so the continuity got less good in the second half. Dean’s arc was pathetic when they bothered to pay attention to it.

So like S7, some of the episodes were all right, but as a season it just didn’t hang together for me. The pacing for both seasons was rough, but you can’t pin that all on Gamble because the pacing for S5 was rough to me, too. Maybe in S6 it just boils down to my personal taste, but I don’t see it as more than a head above S7, if that. It took a long time to say that, but there it is.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-26 23:18
Emmau, sorry about the delay. Been busy and there are SOOO many comments. I tried to work my way up the list.

One of the problems with creating a whole new mythology in year six is the same problem that the show’s always had. They had no idea if they were going to be around for 5 more seasons. So they needed to make something that would be concluded in a year while leaving the opening for the next. Also they didn’t have a complete blank slate, they had to make something that would fit with all the old mythology while they created their new one. Trying to stick with 5 years of canon for extremely detailed oriented fans while creating a whole new storyline is pretty difficult. If you could write all new pasts and destinies for two beloved characters, like some alternative universe fanfiction, it would be easy. But you can’t, you have stick with what is already known and the characters have to be recognizable, as do their relationships with one another or you have A LOT of complaints like you did with this season and with soulless Sam.

But that is part of reason I liked the SS idea, because it for me it did had a same character AND a different one. I liked to build up to the reveal. Wondering if this was actually Sam or if his time in the cage had forever changed him? Then finding out that both were true and neither were true. I really liked that. The only effect it had on how I saw the real Sam was to make me feel extremely horrified for him, because to me the real Sam was still being tortured in the cage. No different then if a ghoul had taken Dean’s form and memories while he was being tortured in hell. I didn’t hate SS either, I actually thought he was hilarious in CIYB. He was without conscious, so his actions were based purely on logic.

Which is why I think he wanted Dean around, despite having no real feelings for him. He needs somebody he knows he can trust. Reading people is partly logical like Sherlock Holmes, you can deduce things based on the information on hand. But you also have to be able to read people and some of it’s instinctual, neither of which SS could do. But he knew from Sam’s memories that he could trust Dean and Dean’s instincts. This is how I saw his progression, he wakes up. Knows something wrong, but can’t figure what. He goes to Bobby does all the standard tests to prove to Bobby he’s not a monster, but thinks he can’t tell Bobby something wrong because he’s a hunter and he would remember Gordon tried to kill him because he’s different. So he leaves before Bobby can figure it out.

He doesn’t go to Dean because he has no connection and Bobby is the one with the base of knowledge. Also he could have had some of the same fears about Dean. Dean did threaten to kill him once, twice if the voice mail was never cleared up. But he would also remember everything else Dean and done and so was unsure of what to do. It logical to have partners though for safety, so he hooks up with the Campbells, because he has knowledge family breeds loyalty even if he feels none. When he figures out Dean is in danger, he goes to him not out fear for Dean necessarily, but because it’s a lead to the monster and the alpha.

But when he realizes Dean is happy to see him, not amping up to kill him because he returned from hell wrong, he decides that being with the guy he knows he can trust, opposed to the Campbell’s he’s just guessing about, sounds good. So he decides to convince Dean he wants him back in. Dean might be rusty, but he knows everything he’s accomplished so logically it makes since to stick with him. He just needs to continue to fake all the emotion, like he’s been doing all year.
I don’t believe he ever had a true emotion the entire time he was here. Even the “fear” of dying is embedded in our DNA, it doesn’t necessarily take an emotion to feel it. He could calculate risks and put himself in danger but the resouling was too big of risk, so he pretended to be terrified to try to get Dean and Death not to do it. He had physical sensations which is why he like sex and didn’t like pain but no emotions.

Dean did have a big brother storyline, but he always torn between the life he thought he wanted (that a big part of him did still want) and the life that felt right and a brother he loved. And the rusty thing I thought was cool, because regardless of whether he was rusty or not he got the job done. So a rusty Dean is still a better hunter than most other hunters. Sam was better at getting the kill, but that was because he had no morals or conscious and could go 24 hours a day. But Dean was obviously the actual better hunter, because he got the kill while trying to do what was right.

Sam did bring up what he had done to Dean and Bobby while he was SS, but I have to admit I wouldn’t have minded seeing more of that. I loved the Sam in Unforgiven. He was the old Sam trying to do what was right, regardless of the consequences to himself. I honestly think your view of him in that episodes is pretty harsh. He wasn’t doing anything to Dean. Unless you look at it that every time Dean picks up a bottle he’s deliberately being selfish and uncaring towards Sam. Because Sam will have to pick up the pieces when he goes rock bottom.

And the MoA, despite being a red herring, was not an important kill. If she’d been allowed she would have wrecked even more havoc. And could have ended doing as much damage as the Leviathan or more, if the Jefferson Starship had been perfected and got out.

While I agree that LIB was to hutdown any hope for them either having a normal relationship ever. I disagree that it was pointless. That was a pretty major thing. There is now basically no hope that they can really have any sort of future outside hunting. That is where part of Dean’s hopelessness came from this year. I have to admit if they don’t do anything about resolving his depression next year than that might be pointless. But that is still more of an issue with this season than last.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-27 00:26
Oh, no problem—I’v e been off-site for a bit myself, so I haven’t been keeping up with the flow of conversation myself. Thanks for the answer, though. You make some good points about the creators not knowing what time frame they had to work with—but at the same time, Bob Singer and Sera Gamble have been there since the beginning. They’re familiar with that issue, so it shouldn’t have been that big a shock. You’re right that they didn’t have a completely blank slate, but considering how many times they reconned canon over the last two seasons, it didn’t seem to bother them. In S6, they did seem to rewrite both Dean and Sam, for at least large parts of the season, and one of the major fan complaints is that they didn’t write the brothers’ relationship, so the fact that they had all these problems AND didn’t (for me) produce a compelling mytharc/through line is probably one of the things that led us to having a new showrunner, since many of these problems persisted and got worse through S7.

I agree that the build-up to the reveal was well done. I disliked retreading “What’s wrong with Sam” again, though, and that’s where “clean slate” suddenly became “cannibalize your previous canon.” I think the issue with your analogy is that if a ghoul had taken Dean’s form and memories while Dean was being tortured in hell, I don’t think we would have been asked to find it endearing, like I was apparently supposed to see SS in CYHIYB. I wouldn’t be expecting Sam to take care of ghoul!Dean and work with him. I realize the difference is that Dean had to keep track of Sam’s body in order to get the soul back in, but I still had to basically watch a monster in Sam’s skin for 11 episodes, and Dean was expected to work with him, look out for him, etc., when if it had been any other monster Dean or Sam would have killed it in a heartbeat and been justified in doing so. I felt horror for real Sam as well (and frankly, show’s insistence at having characters somehow advocate for leaving his soul in hell made no season whatsoever). But I still had to watch SS treat Dean like garbage, want to kill innocent people, etc, so it ending up just wearing on me, personally. I understand that was different for others.

I think your theory about SS and trusting Dean is the most logical explanation I’ve read about why he wanted Dean around. But why didn’t any of that apply for a year? If he had real Sam’s memories, he knew Dean was the one to ride into Stull just to die with him, so logically all of the good he allegedly remembered of Dean should have outweighed one memory. It would be more logical to believe this was the one he could trust from the outset. If family meant safety, he should have immediately gone to Dean. Instead, he set up a new family with the Campbells. Therefore, he didn’t need Dean, and his need to get to him shouldn’t have been so urgent. To get a lead on an alpha, yes, but that didn’t explain why he would desire any continued contact. His need for Dean to be around shouldn’t have been so urgent, because he’d already replaced him. He had loyal people at his back, or at least as far as he knew. It still doesn’t make sense to me. Maybe I’m supposed to think he secretly knew he couldn’t trust the Campbells, but that makes him look even less logical for being their attack dog for an entire year when he knew they couldn’t be trusted. He clearly believed the Campbells were superior to Dean hunting wise (as did the Campbells), so it couldn’t have been hunting skills. And despite whatever he was spouting in 6.1, he didn’t learn from Dean to care about the people they were saving, because he didn’t want to. He didn’t even want to fake it, really. That didn’t make sense to me, either.

See, I saw SS annoyed with Castiel in 6.3,smug in 6.5 when he let Dean get bitten, certain he’d hit upon a brilliant plan, annoyed with Sampa for not coming clean in 6.7, afraid in 6.11, just to name a few times I saw him show emotion. So I disagree that he didn’t. Show just forgot periodically that he was supposed to be a robot. They used the no emotion card when they wanted to, and threw them in when they wanted to. I do agree that he was playing Dean in 6.6 by pretending to be earnest and nervous, though, and that’s another reason why his beatdown there never bothered me.

Yes, Dean got saddled with the big brother storyline again, more retreading. I didn’t see him as always torn about the ideal life, though—that was over in 6.5. Show came back to perform way more autopsies than we needed, but by 6.6 Dean was convinced he was a killer and didn’t belong anywhere near Lisa/Ben. He wasn’t torn about it—he knew it was gone. The rusty thing drove me up a wall, but I do have a thing for show constantly belittling my favorite, as well as one of the leads. I don’t understand what you saw, because show went out of its way that Dean wasn’t a better hunter than most, specifically because he was so “rusty”. He didn’t get the kill unless under the influence of vampire blood in the entire first half of the season except for one fairy in a microwave, played entirely for laughs. He was morally right, but that didn’t translate into respect or even action. He was still sidelined. So yeah, I hated that whole bit, too. Basically Dean’s “storyline” was over by 6.6, and all that was left was big brother Dean and depression, which are his default settings, not actual stories.

Sam brought it up in the only way they let Sam bring things up, in vague generalities. And that doesn’t bother me too much, because I didn’t see SS as being Sam anyway. They never touched on the vamping, though, and since that was allegedly a big moment in Dean’s “storyline” , it seems to me they should have. They should have done more with that, I agree. I know what you’re saying about Sam in Unforgiven, and yes, part of me is being harsh. Yes, it was Sam trying to set things right, and part of that is a writing issue because they spent more time showing Sam thinking about what he did to random people than his family. That’s the writers’ fault, I agree.

And yes, he wasn’t thinking of the consequences to himself, but he wasn’t thinking of the consequences to Dean or Bobby if he knocked down the wall and killed himself. If Sam can proclaim Dean’s deal as selfish, I don’t see why Sam’s behavior here shouldn’t be treated the same. And no, everytime Dean picks up a bottle he wasn’t at risk of immediately triggering death or insanity. We haven’t seen Dean manipulate Sam into following him while he goes on a self-destructiv e bender that Sam is afraid will bring about his death, so no, that’s not the same thing, so mileage varies.

We agree that the MoA was nothing but a red herring, and that in the end, the kill of her was not particularly related to the mytharc? Okay then.

The Lisa/Ben storyline was long dead before LIB. It was dead in YCHTT, it was dug back up to be killed again in Mannequin 3, with a little retconning to make it extra Dean’s fault because he didn’t answer calls from someone who said she couldn’t be part of his life anymore. What? There simply was no need to go back to that well again. I didn’t see that Dean thought he had any future with them, nor any chance at a normal life way back in 6.6. So, no, there was no reason to go back to LIB, because in the end we didn’t get anything from it but flogging the dead angst horse for another pint of congealed blood. The PTB just couldn’t (or wouldn’t) think of anything else to do with Dean. He gained nothing from S6 in terms of character. S7 only made his “storyline” more aimless. So I’ll agree to disagree there as well.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-27 02:26
On the storyline, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, because I thought it held to gather pretty well and while there was a little retread it wasn't so much to be a problem for me. Probably also on Lisa/Ben and MoA, because that wasn't how I perceived either.

On the ghoul analogy, the ONLY point I was trying to make with that is that real Sam had ABSOLUTELY no responsibility for what SS, because it wasn't him. I may have misunderstood, but it seemed like you were saying you were angry at Sam even after he'd been resouled for things he done before. If not then the whole comparison was unnecessary.

As for SS emotions, most of the expressions he was faking for the sake of manipulating Dean or whoever or trying to appear normal. He did look smug in LFoT without anyone looking so that could be an example. And smug, to me, is a form of satisfaction, which is like the sensation of sex. It feels good. He experience sensations but not emotion. But I could see some one arguing which is which. Regardless that is how I saw, so again it didn't bother me. The beatdown never bothered me either. That was actually my favorite scene. Raw emotion from Dean towards his brother who felt nothing.

I'll admit the alcoholism wasn't the best example, but Dean's not broken in the way Sam is. He never has been. IMO if Dean was in a similar situation where the only danger was to himself for what he saw as past mistakes. He would do it. So I still say you're being way too harsh on Sam, selfish or not.

Once again Sam actually did apologize in LaV or started to, but Dean cut him off by saying it wasn't his fault. But Sam insisted it was still his responsibility. I admitted that I would have like to seen the scene between Bobby and Sam making up. But really what could he do to make it up to them other than apologize (for things he wasn't responsible for-even if he thinks he is)?. They could let us see the full apology, but what else could he do?

On the saves, Dean got just a many that season as Sam did.
Feel free to correct me, if I got any of these wrong.
1st Sam, 2nd-Nobody,3rd- No kill Balty salted Raphel,4-Bobby kill. 5-All massive kills-Dean 6-Dean and Sam 7-No kills 8-Sam and Dean kill 9-Dean kills fairy. Sam kills leprechaun. 10-Onscreen Dean Kill Sam speared a demon with a pole 11-No kills 12-Sam kills 13- Sam kills 14-No kills. 15-No Kills 16-Dean kills worm but Sam killed Grampa 17-No kills 18-Dean kills 19-Dean kills 20-Cas Kills 21 Dean kills 22 Sam kills SS and CS So that's what 9 kills for Sam(including SS) 9kills for Dean

This isn't really in regards to you but to a lot of posts on here. But I sometimes feel like when my nieces come over and look at pictures on my wall. They will actually count to make sure they have a equal number. Looking for evidence that one is loved more than the other (although they know they'll never find anything so mainly I think they do it to irritate me.)

I guess my point is that if the writers are concentrating to make sure that if Dean got 8 kills the Sam has to get 8 or whatever. They might be missing more important aspect to the story.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-27 09:09
Oh, no, I totally don't see anything robo-Sam did as Sam's fault. So I understand now what you meant with your ghoul analogy, and I think we're in agreement. About the retreading and Dean's "storylines", we can agree to disagree. We can also agree to disagree about SS's emotions. Perceptions vary, and I don't think there's probably a right or wrong there.

I think that's my point, though. Dean was seen as being in a similar situation when he made the deal. The consequences were only to himself. Sam called him selfish for not thinking about what it would do to him, and Dean agreed. Therefore, I don't see Sam's actions in Unforgiven as any different. Your mileage obviously varies.

I will fully admit that my feelings about the handling of the aftermath of SS are conflicted and probably contradictory. This possibly comes from being annoyed that show found a way to write their "evil Sam" arc that Kripke hinted he had been planning to write before the writers' strike without making Sam responsible for any of it. Again, I don't think Sam should be held responsible for any of it. But because he isn't, all the consequences were wiped away, especially for Bobby (sure they hinted Bobby felt differently about him because he couldn't rid the image from his mind, but we never saw any sign of that whatsoever so I'm not sure what the point of the line even was) or Dean. No, Sam couldn't have done more than apologize, but they didn't even acknowledge SS' possible destructiveness to Sam's personal relationships, instead focusing on complete strangers. I think we agree that they could have addressed that more, but the problem is holding Sam accountable is wrong. So I don't know. Bottom line, it just left me unsatisfied.

I don't think I'm going to get into the numbers game with you, because that would involve quality of kills and timing and probably scientific formulas NASA uses and I just feel you're not that interested. I do feel like you're saying anyone who is interested is watching show wrong, and I'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't think there's a wrong way for fans to watch the show. But to me, show definitely made a point of showing Dean as rusty last season and as apathetic and sloppy in hunting as part of his "storyline", and if they weren't concentrating on it while they did that doesn't speak well of them. If they weren't concentrating on the Dean "storyline" aspect of the show, what were they concentrating on? But again, I can agree to disagree.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-27 11:36
I agree I don't think there is a right or wrong on most of these things. Your perception is obviously just a valid as mine.

For me this would also include they way the show saw Dean that year. I seriously saw him as a badass hunter with very few signs of being rusty. Regardless of whatever those probably jealous (after all he's badass AND gorgeous) assholes said. Yeah the jerks stated he was rusty but I saw no actually signs of it, after EoMS. That was my perception of what the show was driving towards last season.

On the selfish thing, I'm not sure the instances are completely comparable because Dean made the deal for himself alone. And Sam was trying to correct past mistake and save people. BUT while I do think Dean's decision was selfish I totally love him for it. He thinks with his heart when it comes to family and that is one of my favorite things about him. Yes there were other factors but I do think he mostly did it because the person who was his brother, son, best-friend and partner was lying in front of him and he couldn't deal with the loss. Yes it was a mistake but it is nothing I fault him for. I know bit of a contradiction, but there it is I love him for his flaws as well as his strengths.

I apologize for the numbers game. Like I said most to the frustration comes from reader a lot of posts in one day. I was trying to point out that the way people remember things is not necessarily the way things happened.(talki ng actually facts here not perception) Not just on the kills but on large portions of the show. This is most definitely on both sides. Like the Ipod thing the other day. Some people remembered it as Dean throwing it out the window when he'd just tossed it in the backseat, which colored how they felt about Dean. Perception of actions is obviously subjective, but actually actions are not. But of course there is no wrong way to watch the show. I'm sorry I left that impression.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-27 13:44
Sometimes in the heat of debate it's easy to get frustrated and go all out in your argument. I've been guilty of that before, so no apologies necessary. At the end of the day, we all watch show through our own lenses and filters.

To me, that's a quandary. To me, the PTB did mean exactly that, because they included plenty of shots of Dean being saved by SS, the Campbells, etc, in the first half of the season. But if I wasn't supposed to see Dean as "rusty", then show just invited characters to heap insults on him for nothing? That's obnoxious. Honestly, at this point PTB's between a rock and hard place with me, because it's either a storyline I despised or they didn't really write what they stated they did (I remember distinctly Jared talking before the season about how Sam was going to have to take charge because Dean had been out of the game, for instance). Neither is good, but that's just my opinion.

You know what, I'll agree that Dean did make his deal mostly because he wanted to save his brother, and he didn't think about the consequences to himself or Sam in the aftermath. Sam wanted to learn about what his counterpart had done and seek redemption for himself, with no regards to himself or to Dean in the aftermath. I think they're pretty comparable. I just find that show has a double standard with Sam and Dean on this point--Dean leaving behind Sam in a sacrificial moment = selfish/Sam leaving Dean behind in a sacrifical moment = noble. Why is making things up to strangers more important than sticking around for Dean, the person who'd just run the gauntlet to save his soul? I just wish show had dug deeper into this, but of course like all interesting storylines show pretty much disposed of it after Unforgiven. Pity.

Perception can be distorted from the facts of show, but sometimes it can simply be that people interpret the same events differently. For example, in CYHIFB, Dean killed a fairy with a microwave, which was played completely for laughs. Then he was locked up in a cell, completely helpless, until SS could swoop in and save him by killing the main MotW. Quanitatively the kills might have been the same, but the quality is (to me) different, and therefore there is an imbalance. My perception may not match yours, and that's fine. We just see things differently, and neither one of us is wrong;
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-27 14:14
I don't feel like I said that quite right. Maybe my point is that Dean's deal is able to be viewed as a multi-layered decision, with both good and selfish intentions. I think if Sam is to be viewed as a mutli-layered character, his decisions should be held up to the same standards. I think the problem is that Sam's decisions are taken too black and white at times. Demon blood = evil and risking soul = noble. Neither tells the complete story. Sam went into demon blood with some very noble intentions (saving people) as well as some self-serving ones (i.e., wanting to feel strong and in control). Sam wanting to seek redemption is noble, but it also doesn't take into account what happens to his family if he does break the wall, causing insanity or death. I think it serves Sam better as a character to treat him as three-dimension ally as we do Dean.
misty
# misty 2012-06-22 17:02
I love the show but sometimes I have to laugh at it. I mean at this point Dean's depression is it's own supporting character. And the Sam hand thing started to be comical because you would have thought it would have healed early in the season, yet there in mid season he was still pushing on it! Jared even made a joke about this.
I think it will be very interesting to see the first episode of the new season focus entirely on Sam, how he's coping with not knowing what happened to Dean or where he is, taking care of the Impala, Yes! I want to see Sam actually working on his brother's car! It seems totally in character to me that a heartbroken Sam would be concerned with taking very good care of Dean's beloved "Baby" just like in S2 E1 where he insisted the totaled Impala could be salvaged because he refused to believe Dean would die, and knew he would want to fix it when he got out. I would think that car would be much more meaningful now for Sam. And I want to see the snappy exchanges between him and Crowley cause you know he'll be around harass Sam and to gloat in his misery
I've always felt that although Crowley clearly hates both Winchesters, he seemed to hate Sam just a bit more, maybe because at one time Sam was a threat to his power. Moose!
I don't think we should see Dean until the very end of the episode, and I think he should have red eyes like all the creatures that were surrounding him in Purgatory.
Questions to ponder: If Dean is gone for a long while, how is he going to eat? I can only think of one very awful possibility. And he has to eat SOMETHING or he'll die. And what he finally gets topside again, is he going to have an awful addiction, like Sam did with the demon blood, and will Sam have to lock him up and detox him? Will we get a crying Sammy begging for help from above like we did with Dean in My Bloody Valentine?
You guys might not like some of my posts, but you gotta admit, I could write a hell of a lot better then the current SPN writers are doing at this point LOL At least I think so.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-22 17:57
In the end, I think you had to laugh or cry at Sam’s magical hand of sanity and Dean’s depression, now sold as a separate accessory. You couldn’t blame the boys for joking.

I think it would be smart to focus a significant portion of the season opener on Sam and how he’s dealing. I remember Bob Singer said Sam would have a human storyline this year (and hopefully he means to step out of the “What’s wrong with Sam?” rut. This set up for this season feels very S4 to me, and while I love the beginning of 4.1, I think this time instead of starting with Dean they should start with Sam. I was conversing with someone on this board (Kelly, I want to say you, but I might be wrong) that said Sam got a bad start in S4 because his first scene was with Ruby in his motel room. I think this time they should show Sam working to find Dean. Taking care of the Impala is a fantastic suggestion, because very often the car has been a metaphor for Dean/home. Sam taking care of that, refusing to let it go just like in 2.1, would be great.

I don’t know about Mark Shepherd’s availability, but I think if he can’t be the Big Bad of the season I’d love him to be a significant villain. I do think he seems to hate Sam more, and I’d like to see something come from that. Plus, I think Sam would be incensed and hated filled towards Crowley for what he’s done to Dean.

I think they could quickly cut to Dean every so often for a short scene (because let’s face it, extended purgatory is probably not in show’s budget. I want to see at least a little Dean in Purgatory, but I don’t need it to be extensive. I want to see Sam working to find Dean more, as well as emotional Sam. I think the logistics of Purgatory (eating, sleeping, rest among monsters hunting him, etc) are interesting problems, and I hope show does eventually explain them. I really don’t want them to repeat Sam’s addiction storyline with Dean, just because show has a real issue with recycling storylines from one character to another. I want S8 to have completely original ideas that don’t just reuse plots they’ve already done. I’d like to see some feral Dean—complete ly wild and focused on survival, with Sam having to acclimate him back to being in the “real” world, so to speak, personally. But different things appeal to different people, so there you go.

Hey, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your posts, Misty. The more the merrier, in my opinion!
misty
# misty 2012-06-22 20:31
They must, must, MUST have Mark Sheppard next year! He's the best villain in my opinion, and his snarky exchanges with Sam would be a highlight. As I said, he hates both Winchesters but Sam was the biggest threat, as he was groomed to be Lucifer's vessel, so it always seemed to me that he disdained him a little more, insulted him a bit more.
I think he's loving the fact that'Moose' is all alone now and would be dropping by every so often to rub it in. besides that, I think Sam is gonna be forced to work with him as he is the only one who knows what happened to Dean.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-22 20:52
I adore Mark Sheppard as the snarky bad guy. He does it so well! I do think he's one of the best villains show has ever produced, because he maintains the balance of fun and menace. I'm not sure Sam is really a threat anymore, persay, but I'm open to the idea and if show would like to reintroduce it and explore it, I'd be good with that. I do agree that he seems to dislike Sam so much he doesn't want to even speak to him, but Dean he'll deal with. I'd like to see show explore that more.

I do think a scene of Crowley dropping by to taunt Sam makes sense. I really don't want to see Sam and Dean working with any more demons, though, especially Crowley. He's already proven he'll screw them over every time. I want Sam to find a way to save Dean without working with demons. That's just my preference, because I feel like we've done the working with demon thing over and over now, and mileage varies. No problem.
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 05:52
I don't think he will WANT to work with Crowley, it's just that Crowley is the only one who knows what happened to Dean. Unless somehow Cas gets out without being able to rescue Dean. Since it was always a closer relationship between Cas and Dean, I think it would be interesting to see just Sam and Cas together, and also deal with what Cas did to Sam. Not to mention the fact that Bobby's death and Dean being gone are directly because of Cas's actions. I always thought Sam forgave Cas way too easily. The reason I believe Dean had a harder time is because Cas's actions were against SAM. If they had been against Dean himself, I think he could have forgiven him easier.
It was also interesting to me that after Dean gave up on Cas in the season 7 opener, Sam, whose wall Cas deliberately broke, still prayed to him and believed that Cas was still 'in there' somewhere. This an area where Sam
is better than Dean; he has more faith. Although it was always shown that Cas was closer to Dean than to Sam, and he even said this, I think it would be intriguing to see the relationship between him and Sam. But then Cas has a hell of a lot of making up to do to Sam, and Dean too but more to Sam. And are they ever gonna show what happened with Cas's/ Emmanuel's wife? They just kinda dropped the poor lady1
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 08:02
It's just that we've already done Winchesters forced to work with/for Crowley for one brother's safety. I just want show to come up with things they haven't done before. Again, mileage varies.

I could see how it would be interesting for Castiel to get out and for Sam and Castiel to have to work together. I never really bought how easily their conflict seemed to resolve itself last season (I would think Jared didn't either, considering how he talked about how they had never really been friends in interviews). However, if you start trying to assign blame to Cas for Bobby, I think you'd have to hang Ellen and Jo on Sam, as his actions indirectly led to their deaths, so that's a mighty slippery slope.

I will agree that Dean, who forgives family extremely easily, took Cas's actions harder because they were against his brother rather than him. I think Sam identified more with Cas at that point, because he too had brought down great evil without intending to, under the guise of trying to save the world. I always thought his experience made him more empathetic there. I agree Sam generally has more faith than Dean, though.

I think it would be interesting to see Castiel and Sam work together, not because Castiel has so much more to make up to Sam because I think Cas taking away Sam's delusions/pain was a pretty significant gesture of amends making. Plus, I'm not sure how you "make up" something like that. I do think that because Sam and Cas have never been close it would be great to see them working together towards the common goal of saving Dean.

Yeah, I think Cas/Emmanuel's wife fell into a plot hole, never to be seen again.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-23 12:00
It'd not only be interesting. At this point, Cas being one of the non-main characters that has lastedlonger and has a larger fanbase, it'd be a must that he developes a relationship with Sam too. Making it one-sided with Dean is starting to seem strange, even more when it's always Sam who cares for Cas and Dean is usually less interested. Remember when Cas said he had a more profound bond with Dean and Dean winced and found it silly?

But I think Castiel is now with Crowley. He must be. I want to see him solving his business with the demon, because they're not solved at all. And maybe, if done properly, this can lead to forgiveness, if not from Dean, at least from the audience. Taking Sam's illness (that, while for Sam it was painful and sad, for Cas is about chasing bees and being a kintergarden kid) is not enough for me. That's the least thing he could do,otherwise I'd stop liking the character and he'd be a bad guy for me.

But for me to forgive him, I need to see him taking responsability of his acts, true responsability. Not making sandwiches, not being all cute and shit and playing Sorry and Twister. That only makes it worse to me.

Face your shit, Cas. You're onlder than humanity, you should do better. You did too much bad.

I'd actually like to see Sam work alone. Let us see how good of a hunter he is. HOw smart he is and what can he think of to save Dean. Because, yes, I want Sam to help Dean out of Purgatory. I want him to fight for Dean and maybe take care of Dean if he comes broken. And show Dean he's still his brother and they can count on each other. That's all Dean has ever said he wanted, his family, his brother, and I think that would help heal Dean's broken soul and inject some self-esteem, so we can have a better Dean for the second half of the season, hopefully.

Too much wishful thinking. I know this is not happening.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 12:34
I agree there needs to be more interaction between Sam and Cas. They share the most important person in their lives, but that's about it. Maybe that's what show was going for last season, with having Sam suddenly not be someone who holds grudges (?) and forgive Cas right away and be concerned about his mental health and whatnot. They could use more work on the Cas to Sam side, I agree. I'll agree to disagree that Dean is less interested/not caring about Cas--his relationship with him is a lot more complicated than Sam's but I don't see him as disinterested. Besides, I can't imagine the time when Dean really wants to talk about feelings at all, much less his profound bond with an angel in front of his brother. That's just part of Dean's "no chick flicks" facade, in my view.

If show proved anything to me in S5, it's that they're not super interested in personal redemption stories. I doubt they're going to do much more with Cas's actions in S6. He saved Sam's life and helped them take down the Leviathans--in terms of the PTB, I think they're done. Just like with S4/S5, it's up to individual fans if they're willing to forgive or not.

I will however agree that I want to see Cas face responsibility straight on. I think it's been a consistent character trait that he shies away from taking responsibility for things, too used to millenia of "just following orders." I'd like to see him grow out of that. I do agree that Cas's "crazy" last year was bizarre, and yet another time when the PTB wrote themselves into a corner. It didn't make sense that Cas could just take on Sam's hallucinations because they stemmed from his memories, so they had to have them mutate into "Hee, crazy Cas is funny." But the choices were limited, because if he ended up in pain like Sam I don't think fans would have been happy either, as I already read resentment that Sam's storyline had been regifted to Cas. It might be better all the way around to just move on.

This is my personal opinion, but I feel like show that last two years has been pretty dedicated to showing how smart and how good a hunter Sam was. In the soulless arc, show made sure to let us know Sam was now the best hunter--except for the fact that he was sloppy and let innocent people die because he didn't care enough to investigate. Despite being plagued by multiple mental issues and hallucinations, he more often than not saved Dean on hunts and was the strongest, deepest, etc. I feel like we've hit that note plenty of times. I think Sam hasn't had as much opportunity to interact with and work with other hunters, so that's what I'd like to see. but mileage varies.

As for the rest of what you said, I am wishful thinking right there with you. I want to see Sam help Dean, either out of purgatory (other option being Dean saves himself), and/or in its aftermath. I agree that a lot of Dean's issues could be helped by feeling wanted, needed, and cared for by his family, because that's always been part of his broken self-esteem ("Everyone's going to leave you", "You've always needed them more than anyone's needed you", etc). I'm not saying this is all his family's fault, but I think Sam could do a lot to help finally heal Dean and bring some resolution to at least some of his issues. Here's hoping anyway.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-23 13:16
This is my personal opinion, but I feel like show that last two years has been pretty dedicated to showing how smart and how good a hunter Sam was.

I think the Purgatory story can and should be used to finally show how much of a great hunter DEAN can be. In the last few years there have been numerous jibes on how rusty and weak he is, how he freezes and needs to be saved like a damsel in distress.

So to me being "taken care of" and "saved" some more would kill the little ounce of self esteem he still has. No thanks, I have no interest in that.

I want him to gain his confidence back by seeing that he is strong, smart and competent himself. Right from the start. Now I'm not expecting him to conquer Purgatory or something unrealisitc like that but the sheer factor of surviving it and becoming more of a badass from it is what I want to see.

He needs to see that he is worth something on his own first and foremost, that he can manage things on his own. Then, outside relationships can come in.

And then hopefully noone would have cause to demean him as a weak loser anymore and tell him to "suck it up". Or even if they are, he wouldn't be rankled about it anymore.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 13:41
From your lips to the powers that be's ears. I sincerely hope to never hear "Suck it up", "whiny princess", or any of the other derogatory terms we've heard applied to Dean due to his issues ever again. You're right that it is a danger that Dean being taken care of will lead him to believe he's even more worthless than he believes he is now. Still, we've seen Sam take care of Dean in small ways without Dean feeling worse, and Dean saving Sam doesn't necessarily make Sam weak. But I agree it's all in the writing, so I'll hope for the best.

I agree that I want to see Dean regain his confidence. I want him to survive purgatory because he is strong, quick on his feet, and an incredibly good hunter, because he is. I don't mind Dean coming back a bit feral, and Sam taking care of him by negotiating with the real world on his behalf. But yes, what I most want from this storyline is for Dean to come back with 1) no one making him feel worse/less for having to survive yet another traumatic experience and 2) with some confidence that can finally start chipping away at his issues, which are starting to develop their own orbit field. I agree completely there.
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 21:49
I think Dean was always just as strong a hunter as Sam is in the earlier days before he went through so much. I think he proved that in LFOTH. Sure he had vamp strength but still, taking out a WHOLE nest of vamps by himself was pretty damned badass.
I didn't like the Campbells, save for Qwen, hated Christian, because they all seemed to be putting Dean down all the time.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 22:06
While I agree that Dean has always been just as strong a hunter as Sam, I think that the last two seasons have been consistent in not trying to show that. They had a parade of characters telling us Dean was rusty, pathetic, weak, whiney, etc. They've had Dean needing to be rescued more often than not. The LFOTH, in my opinion, only happened because he was a vampire at the time, because to me show hasn't been particularly firm on depicting humanity as the strongest piece on the board, despite their lipservice to the idea. I think it was all supposed to tie into his depression storylines somehow, except they never connected the dots and neve resolved it in any way.

Moreover, I think after all this battering Dean doesn't believe he's a strong hunter anymore. He describes himself as a killer, not a hunter or savior of people any longer. All he can see are his failures, or his perceived failures.

So when I say I want Dean to be shown as a strong hunter again, I mean that in two ways. I want Dean to regain his confidence and believe he is not only good at his job, but doing good as well. I also mean I want show to stop having people berate Dean, especially under the mask of tough love, but never actually letting him up from under the rock of depression he's been stuck under for years now. Just my opinion.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-24 06:20
They had their own mouthpiece character Bobby tell Dean that Sam was the better hunter. So to me that came straight from the writers.

And since hunting is the theme of this show and there are (in theory) only two protagonists, declaring one better sends a clear message on who they consider inferior.

It's just like "your hell will make mine look like Graceland".

Why, why was it necessary to put Dean vs. Sam in the show like that in dialogue?

Yet, they always do that. And always in Dean's disfavour.

He went to hell but wait, it was the fun, lollipop hell. And when it's referenced than not that he suffered there, nope. The only thing they reference is how he torturred, how he was "the bad guy".

He seemingly had a tie to the arc that dissolved into Death - a neutral party - telling him that Sam and only Sam was the one to defeat Lucifer and Michael telling him he wasn't a part of the story anymore.

His prowess as a hunter? See above.

Even the role of "big brother" (and I loathe when the character's entire worth is meassured on this by the narrative itself)? He is either too controlling/bos sy or not caring and protective enough. Depending on the plot of the week.

Meanwhile, even when they do a dark arc for Sam, he gets glorifying moments out of it. The demon powers, the soullessness, there were more than enough "look at the ultra-badass, Sex God yadda yadda" scenes. Heck, even while having Lucifer hallucinations he was perfectly alright dealing with everything and even hunted while having a breakdown.

With Dean? Like you said, we get an endless parade on how weak and whiny he is and rusty and just can't hack it and whatever is his problem again?

Of course that is also a problem because it is seen like he is, I don't know, "hogging the POV"? Whereas I say, the character-bashi ng writing? Please take it, far far away from him.

To me the show is going out of its way to keep the Dean vs. Sam alive in the narrative so at this point, quite frankly, it's not wonder the fandom is what it is.

Both sides seem to want what the other has and neither is satisfied.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 12:38
And don't forget he's still haven't drink any blood. He's fighting with an empty stomach.

Other new turned Vamp would've killed ten humans already to satisfy their hunger to be able to think clearly and kill their brethren. When push come to shove Dean is the most badass hunter there is but last season he's written as weary and hunting halfheartedly. Eventhough I love Dean's man-pain but too much of it on screen making him looks weak.

I hope we get to see the badass Dean rise again.
Tawrens
# Tawrens 2013-06-09 08:58
Emmanuel and Daphne were not husband and wife. Seeing as Cas/Jimmy had no memory they couldn't get married anywhere in the US legally. Jimmy is still married to Amelia Claire's mom so once again any marriage would be illegal.
misty
# misty 2012-06-22 20:46
In season 4 E 1 Sam had put in an IPOD, which Dean promptly ripped out and told him not to 'douche up' the car. This time out, I don't think Sam will do that, not because he thinks he will get Dean back as much as he's respecting his memory. I would like to see Sam take the car in to a garage for repairs and then getting pissed off because they didn't do the work the way dean would have wanted it done'
What I really want to see though is Sam himself under the hood, doing repairs that after all these years he surely must have learned from watching Dean, and even before that, watching his Dad( he was a mechanic remember?).Even though working on cars wasn't Sam's thing, it seems something surely would have to have rubbed off on Sam being around Dean all his life. We've NEVER seen Sam doing anything with that car. So how great would it be to actually, for the first time, see SAM under that hood, doing repairs. I would love that., Anybody else?
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 01:26
I'd love to see Sam working on the car. Maybe struggling a little because it's always been Dean's domain, but determined to take care of it and keep it exactly the way it is because thsi time he's getting Dean back! I think that'd be a great scene.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-23 03:15
I wouldnt no offence to the car but I would just rather Sam stayed away from it. No chances of anybody getting mad at him including Dean for touching the thing.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-06-23 03:40
I'd actually rather if Sam spent his time getting Dean out of Purgatory instead of fixing the car. Besides, beyond a scratch on the front and a broken window, the car seems to be fine. It's certainly withstood more than driving through a pane glass sign in the past without need for fixing.
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 05:35
I don't mean spending ALL his time working on the car. Just that it's important enough to him that he keep it maintained, while he's trying to figure out where Dean is and how to rescue him.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 07:51
That's what I meant as well, misty. Since the car seems to be fine, Tim, I don't think it would take much--5 seconds to show he's taking care of the car would be fine. Considering show so often uses the car as a metaphor for Dean, I don't think I'd be happy if Sam just stayed away from it or didn't bother to care about it. I'll accept that mileage varies however.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-23 09:35
That is my point Dean rips out Sam's i-pod because its Dean's car.It seems both the writers and Dean forgot he left that car to Sam .

I dont want any scenes repeated like that wether it is a i-pod or something else .Or any excuses used to have Dean on the offensive with Sam over that car .I would rather see Sam ride a bicycle than see any more stupid scenes like the one from Lazarus Rising or the scene in the Amy episode.

That car just put it away let Sam check on it and then let him have a vehicle of his own and it avoids any petty dramas over it.
Just allow him to save Dean from Purgatory something he was denied when Dean went to hell .
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 11:42
Fair enough.
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 15:58
I don't think he was petty about the car in as much as he'd just gotten out of hell and back from the dead, he was just happy to see his car again. Ok maybe he didn't have to rip out the ipod. In any case, I don't think he'll be petty about anything anymore. He'll just be so happy to be back with Sam. And it's not like I want Sam to obsess over the car or be working on it all the time,I just thought it would be interesting to see him being the one under the hood for a change because I like to see the boys do role reversals.
Speaking of which, am I the only fan whose always wondered why they never did a body swap episode with Dean and Sam switching? I enjoyed the one they did with Sam and the teenager, but it just seems to me that the most obvious switch would have been Sam and Dean. An it would've been hilarious to see Jensen and Jared play eachother's characters! Am I the only fan who ever wanted to see that or thought about it?
Yes I do agree it HAS to be Sam that saves Dean this time. But I don't see how he's gonna do that without some assistance from a supernatural being, angel, demon, or whatever because he has to open that door right? Hey what about DEATH? He might be able to help!
They also, if I remember correctly, have to have the blood of a Purgatory native and something else but I forget now what.
LEAH D
# LEAH D 2012-06-23 16:10
An eclipse I think.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 17:39
I would think anyone who gives someone their most prized possession and comes back 4 months later to find they'd changed it would react. Does that make Dean throwing the ipod out the window right? No, of course not. But I don't think it was quite as petty as some make it. I agree, I don't want Sam obsessing over the car 24/7, but I don't think it would be bad to see him care about the car. We've seen him use the car as a metaphor for Dean several times--in fact, I always thought that Sam installing an ipod in the Impala was supposed to be a sign that things weren't quite right with Sam. But obviously mileage may vary.

I remember thinking that Swap Meat was a big cop-out in terms of a body switch episode. For an idea that had so much potential for us to learn about Dean and Sam, it just went nowhere. We didn't even learn anything new about Sam, who had given up normal long ago. Sigh. I'd love to see Jensen and Jared do a switch, and I know there were plenty of fans who said so at the time. The problem now is that no one thinks they'll repeat the plot so they don't talk about it anymore.

I don't know how Sam can save Dean on his own, but I'd love for them to come up with something new--not just the traditional fallback to angel or demon. Even Death's been used more than once now, and I love Death. In fact, I could work with Death, but I really want them to let Sam find an original way. It's not like show has problems with that--look at 6.4 when all of the sudden you could kill a demon by burning their past self's bones. That never came up before. So they could do something different, and I hope they do, personally.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-23 17:56
Change it? it was a i-pod . If he had gone out and resprayed the thing I might of understood to a point.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 18:17
For someone who refuses to update from cassettes? For someone who adores their car and considers it their most important possession? Yes, that is a change. Just because it seems like a minor update to us doesn't mean that it isn't important to Dean. Again, we don't have to agree, but I can't get behind benying that changing a car's music system, especially for someone who essentially treats their car as his home could be a big deal to that person.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-23 18:47
But the cassette player was still there! They still play the cassettes. At the most Sam got one of those cassette adapter things where you plug a special cassette into the deck and then plug the Ipod into the special cassette. I want to say I understand Dean's throwing out the IPod, but it was very much like the more egregious act of throwing out the amulet. It was a direct and physical way of saying that Sam does not have the right to even ENJOY something Dean doesn't. Dean threw away the IPod. Sam couldn't even listen to what he had downloaded on his own time with earphones. The action was a complete and total dismissal of Sam's autonomy. I know they meant it to be funny, but it wasn't.

The thing is, if they had continued with this characterizatio n of Dean. Calling himself the smarter brother, dismissing Sam's autonomy Sam would have come out looking less bad during season four and the writers decided that Dean had to be completely put upon and Sam had to be the big ungrateful brother. So the scene added nothing, except to have some viewers say that Sam had no right to own an IPod at all because it disrespected Dean.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 18:54
Then again, if one were assigning more serious meaning to that scene, maybe it's the inheritance angle that was part of Dean's ire. If Sam was willing to put an ipod in the car, maybe that meant he had stopped looking for a way to get Dean out and had decided he could do what he wanted with the car. Just a thought.

But honestly, I don't think we were supposed to take the scene that seriously. As I said before, if we were going to take seriously every insult the boys said about each others' intelligence, skills, etc., you could build a damning case for either brother, depending on your bias.

Other than that, I feel defending Dean here will end up descending into Dean vs. Sam, so I'm going to bow out.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-23 19:03
Quote:
Then again, if one were assigning more serious meaning to that scene, maybe it's the inheritance angle that was part of Dean's ire. If Sam was willing to put an ipod in the car, maybe that meant he had stopped looking for a way to get Dean out and had decided he could do what he wanted with the car. Just a thought.
This was the beginning of season 4 - before they knew about angels - and the only way they knew of to bring people back from the dead was to sell their souls to demons. Dean was adamant that he didn't want Sam making a deal to get him out, and his first assumption was that that was what Sam had done, so I don't think Dean was thinking that Sam had stopped looking for him.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 20:29
I'll cop to being a bit facetious. I should know better than to be drawn into the "Dean is a terrible brother who seeks to destroy Sam's independence and force him to be a subordinate" argument. As Kelly so calmly pointed out to us, this was a scene meant to be a joke, and I shouldn't go trying to read anymore into it. My apologies, all.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 10:01
Me too it just draws me to"Sam is a horrible brother who seeks to undermine Dean and thinks less of Dean" .So yeah even if it is for different characters i understand
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 09:09
But Emmau, I could also say people make too much out of Sam's teasing. Some view those comments as serious and think Sam doesn't respect Dean or thinks he's superior to Dean in some way.

So, if Sam's teasing should be taken seriously as a reflection of how Sam feels about Dean then why shouldn't Dean's tossing of the iPod be taken seriously as a reflection of Dean's feelings re: Sam? What's the difference?

For the record, I've never taken Sam's teasing comments seriously, and I never saw Dean tossing the iPod as anything more than a comedic moment. Now, I know some criticized Sam for daring to put an iPod in the car but it was never a big deal to me.

That said, I don't recall Dean tossing it out the window. If he did, that's really messed up and is much less comedic to me.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 09:28
I agree, and that's a point I've made somewhere on this board--each side of fandom can argue that their nonfavorite brother is totally serious while the other is just joking and it's not serious. There is no difference.

I don't remember ever stating that Sam's teasing is a reflection of how Dean feels about him. I also don't remember criticizing Sam for putting an ipod in the Impala--I simply stated why I thought it might bother Dean.

Kelly very thoughtfully pointed out that we were all taking this scene more seriously than it was meant, and probably the discussion around it has as well. At the same time, I agree that if people want to start doing the "Other brother did my favorite wrong" game, both sides have plenty of ammuntion.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 12:50
No. Dean threw it into the back seat. Not out of the window.
And yes this case of Sam vs Dean is not healthy at all.

They are brothers, they tease. Sometimes they know that what they do is annoying their brother but they did it anyway just to get a reaction from their brother. Dean knew that Sam annoyed at him looking up porn on his laptop but Dean do it many times anyway, just to see Sam's bitch face at him.

I have neighbor. They have a pair of boy and girl. The brother's always teasing his sister just to see her cry but he loves his sister just as much as he loves to tease her. It's what siblings do. Hell I fight with my brother over silly things but I never love him less.
misty
# misty 2012-06-24 05:27
Dean doesn't really think he's better or smarter than Sam. It's just big brother ribbing. I think actually it's been shown, uber times, that Dean doesn't think much of himself at all, hence all the depression. I think people are reading too much into the ipod scene.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 08:49
Yeah, that's what I have in my car - a cassette that I attach to my iPod. Unlike Sam, I haven't purchased a fancy little stand for it. I haven't rewatched 4.01 in awhile but I thought Dean tossed it in the backseat. Did he actually throw it out the window? If so, that was a really douchey thing to do. Sam should have been more upset than he was.

I do agree with Kelly in that the scene was played for laughs.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-23 18:19
Quote:
I would think anyone who gives someone their most prized possession and comes back 4 months later to find they'd changed it would react.
Dean died. He didn't go on vacation. When people die, survivors get rid of their clothes, convert their bedroom into a study ... But you're right in that the iPod scene wasn't a big deal. It was just a joke. Although he shouldn't have tossed out Sam's property.

Quote:
Oh, still thinking about this, we've seen Dean offer Sam the car plenty of times--as apology, as comfort, as his way of trying to protect Sam like in 5.2.
The only reason the car made a good apology or comfort gesture was because the status quo was "don't touch my car."

But whatever. I agree the car needs to be run every few weeks to keep it up, but I'm ok if Sam does that off screen. I don't need to see him working on the car to know that he cares about Dean because I see it in just about every episode in a lot of small ways. I think working hard to get Dean back should be enough to say he cares.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 18:33
Of course you're right, cd28. When people die, survivors do do what they will with their possessions, and that's only right. No one has to deal with that person coming back from the dead and asking questions, though. If they did, things might be different you never know. But yes, I think the ipod scene was supposed to be a joke, so while he shouldn't have tossed out the ipod I just can't take it seriously. If we have to take every comment the brothers make to each other seriously, it'd be easy to make a case against either one about bad behavior.

I think I'll have to agree to disagree about a "don't touch my car" status quo. Yes, it's Dean's car and he's possessive, but I never got the impression Sam's not allowed to touch it without permission. Nor does it detract from the fact that Dean does use the car to say things to Sam he can't say out loud.

I don't remember stating that taking car of the car is the only way for Sam to care about Dean. In fact, I think I did say I wanted to see him working hard to get Dean back. I just thought it would be nice to see. Obviously we don't agree, and that's fine.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-23 18:55
I was reading into the comments that showing Sam caring for the car would be affirmation that Sam cares about Dean, but if I was reading too much into them, then I stand corrected and apologize.

I think we do have to agree to disagree about Dean letting Sam touch his car. There were comments made in the first half of the series where it was suggested that Dean hardly ever let Sam drive the car. The scene in Fresh Blood where Dean teaches Sam about maintenance on the car comes to mind. Sam is surprised by the car lesson because Dean rarely lets him even drive it. And Dean comes out and says it in TGND: "New rule. You steal my baby, you get punched." But I agree that there was a lot else going on in TGND and the punch was more about other issues than the car.
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-23 19:09
I suppose whether it was a joke is subjective, but Dean throwing the ipod to the BACK SEAT (I double checked to make sure I wasn't crazy) was clearly brotherly bickering banter IMO. I don't think either brother was traumatized by it. I'm mean neither of this guys seem that sensitive to me.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-23 19:25
Thanks for clarifying what Dean did with the iPod. I was repeating what I thought I read in another comment - too lazy to double-check.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 20:20
Me, too, Kelly. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, because I'd forgotten where the I-Pod ended up, too. That just reinforces my opinion that this was a brotherly teasing scene, not meant to be taken too seriously.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 09:16
THANK YOU, KELLY! I was wondering why people were saying Dean tossed the iPod out the window because I didn't recall him doing that. If he had, I know the scene would have ticked me off a little more, and I didn't recall being outraged by it. I thought he threw it behind him to the backseat so thanks for confirming that!
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-24 09:28
I dont care where Dean threw the i-pod and I know it was meant to be a 'ribbing' moment .

It is the idea it was wrong for Sam to put the thing in the car in the first place .Layer that scene with others where this car is concerned and it just all add's to that idea.
Dean's words and hitting Sam in TGND was the final straw for me with the Impala and its relation to Sam but that is just personal to me. The Impala will continue to play a role in the story and their journey and Sam will no doubt drive it while Dean is otherwise occupied in season 8.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 09:56
Fair enough. There's no one way to see anything, so if you want to see the car scenes as more that's your perspective and that's fine. I will agree to disagree. Thank you for the discussion.
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 22:03
Maybe Dean is so touchy about that car because A- It was his father's and B-He really doesn't have anything else physically, no home or anything so the car is his only real physical possession. I think it helps keep him oriented in some way.
Yes people do move on after someone has died, but on THIS show the Impala is a character is her own right. A strange substitution for a steady relationship with a woman which Dean probably wants but can't have. Maybe he didn't have to rip out the ipod, because yes in fairness after Dean died the car rightfully did go to Sam, but I think the ipod scene wasn't meant to read anything into.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-24 14:11
I took it as a joke, no mean intentions behind. But it does have a meaning, very light-hearted treated since I don't think that scene was meant to be read this in-deep.

Dean doesn't like changes all that much. He wanted his life to be his Dad, his brother and himself road tripping and hunting like, forever. The Impala is his life, his past and his family, his place in the World.

I don't thinkit was that important on Sam's side. He probably wanted some new music and you can't buy cassetes nowadays lol

But I also think Dean is okay with Sam having Baby, especially if he's not there to drive. When Sam came back from Hello, Dean offered the keys to Sam, saying 'she should be hunting' or something along that.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 13:03
I think Dean came back from hell upset. He was moody and snappy thus the Ipod scene was a bit harsh but that's just Dean's character. Sam's not a girl who was sensitif about things. Sam did say that he thought the car was him "I thought the car was mine, Dean"

Dean said "Well, she isn't" In his tone he was clearly upset about things. Lot's of things, really and when Dean upset he tended to snap and violent. Just in his nature is all and I don't think Sam read too much on it. So, why would we fight over it? :D
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-23 13:30
Not me! Sam's not very mechanical, and I don't see him becoming that way because Dean's gone. I like Sharon's idea of Sam parking the Impala at Rufus's cabin or somewhere else and then getting another vehicle to drive. Dean doesn't seem to like it when Sam drives the car so I'd rather Sam not drive it!
KELLY
# KELLY 2012-06-23 19:20
You REALLY don't think Sam should drive the Impala? Yes it's Dean's car, but I think he'd think Sam was a bit of a ass for letting it sit there and driving another lame vehicle. It's almost insulting to Baby.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 09:47
I honestly wouldn't care if Sam drive another car. I wouldn't see it as an insult to Dean at all. To me, Sam keeping it in tip top shape until its rightful owner returns to claim it is very respectful and would be a nice scene.

And selfishly I am not interested in reading comments about how Sam has disrespected Dean because he's driven the car or organized the trunk or installed an iPod. But I guess Sam will likely be criticized no matter what he does so in the end, it really doesn't matter!
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 09:58
Agreed. Fans looking to be offended by Dean's or by Sam's behavior will find a way, no matter what.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-23 10:08
My turn to weigh in on this discussion. My hope is to see some Dean/monster action, but more along the lines of guerrilla warfare than Dean being captured and tortured, which would be inevitably followed by more angst. I'd like to see Dean have a chance to work out his issues fighting the monsters and return with a new appreciation for life, having shaken off the self-flagellati ng depressive rut he's been in for the past six years.

As for Sam, I don't want to see him working with Crowley. I want to see him kick some Crowley butt to force Crowley to help him rescue Dean. In fact, I don't want to see either Sam or Dean partner with Crowley ever again. Crowley's proven he will screw them over every time, and their propensity to forget that fact is starting to make them look a little ridiculous.

I also don't want to see Sam fixing the car. Aside from the fact that Dean will complain if Sam changes anything, Sam's never been shown to have much skill as a mechanic and spending his time now learning that skill wouldn't be the best use of his time.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 11:50
I could definitely get behind that. I definitely want to see Dean vs. monsters, but think the other problem with introducing an addiction/becom ing a monster is that it's one more crushing guilt/angst to add to Dean's depression pile. At this point, I'd rather they started resolving some of those issues, not add more on top of what he's already got. I'd rather see him leave purgatory with a renewed pride in his hunting skills. As simplistic as Sam's sudden declaration of liberation from guilt was in DYL, I'd like Dean to have something similar just so show can move on from repeating the same "storyline" Dean's been saddled with for 6 years.

I also agree that we've Dean and Sam working with demons too many times. I don't want to see Sam working with Crowley or Meg or any other demon. We had that in every season since 4, and it's part of what's taking the show from black and white to everyone's dirty so what does it matter? I'd rather see Sam hook up with Garth, Charlie, or some new character that could really help him.

I guess I'd rather just know that Sam's not going to just stick the Impala in a garage and forget about it. I wouldn't mind seeing him work on it, but at the least I do want to see that Sam is mindful of what the car means to Dean and to him as well (see 5.22) and know that he's taking care of it in anticipation of Dean's return. Mileage obviously varies, and that's fine.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-23 13:51
Emmau - what's the problem with Sam parking the car or putting it in a garage? Dean seems to get upset each time Sam touches or drives the car.

I don't know if he's joking or serious about it, but instead of seeing Dean yell at Sam about driving the car or altering it in anyway, Sam could have kept in somewhere safe waiting for Dean's return! I'm not sure how that would be not taking care of it.

JMO though!
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 17:17
Honestly, I think that's an exaggeration to say that Dean gets upset everytime Sam touches or drives the car. I'm pretty sure when you leave a car for a long time without touching it, the car doesn't end up in the best shape. I think I would find it sad if Sam just shoved the car in a garage, because for me the car does represent Dean and home. So it would be sad for me to see, but obviously you don't, and that's fine.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 17:44
Oh, still thinking about this, we've seen Dean offer Sam the car plenty of times--as apology, as comfort, as his way of trying to protect Sam like in 5.2. So, no, Dean not being happy once because Sam installed an ipod to me does not translate into "Dean yells at Sam all the time about touching his car." Just my opinion, though.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-23 18:23
Didn't Dean yell at Sam about taking that car in TGND? I'm sure he was more upset that Sam just went "ghost" on him, but still . . . . I feel like the car is definitely Dean's car. It's not Sam's car though it may feel like home to Sam. I don't think Dean likes Sam driving or touching his car, so if Sam knows and respects that, I could see him putting the car somewhere safe until Dean's returned.

I like the idea of Sam presenting the car to Dean in tip top shape and condition while tossing Dean the keys. What I mean is I'm perfectly okay w/Sam not driving the Impala.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 18:37
I think I would agree that the car is Dean's, but I've never gotten the impression that Dean doesn't like Sam driving or touching his car. I do think in TGND talking about taking the car was safe ground--Dean couldn't yell at Sam about leaving him behind because that's getting into feelings territory, but he can yell at him about his car.

I do want to see Sam drive and take care of the car until Dean comes back and then present him with the car in tip top shape when he returns. I don't have some hidden agenda in saying that, like it's necessary to prove something--I just like the idea. Mileage, as always, varies.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-06-23 19:02
quoting lala2
Quote:
I feel like the car is definitely Dean's car. It's not Sam's car though it may feel like home to Sam.
I kind of agree, but it makes me sad because if the care is Dean's then Sam really has NOTHING that belongs to him. Dean uses the computer to view porn, so that is a shared possession. I honestly can't think of anything Sam has had that is solely his. Dean HAD the amulet, which was indisputably his. Dean has the Impala, which is identified as his. What does Sam have that he can call his own?

The other thing that bothers me is that the car belonging to Dean is a way of keeping Sam from being an equal. I have a grown child who is living with me because she couldn't get a really good job and she has loans to pay for her education. So she's with me until she finds something better. If I tell her this is my house, and she has to live by my rules and I tell her what she can and cannot buy with her own money while living here, then I'm treating her like she is still a child. One of the few things that Sam has been allowed to express verbally is that he wants to be an equal and not be treated like a child. Dean being angry because Sam left in TGND was understandable. Dean telling Sam that the problem was that he used the car is telling Sam he isn't an equal and is still subject to Dean's rules.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 20:32
Actually, don't both brothers have their own computers at this point? I seem to recall more than one episode this season with duelling laptops. So I think Sam does have that, it seems.

I will simply agree to disagree that Dean is somehow using his car as part of some dastardly scheme to control Sam.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-23 21:06
I think we're on the same page in not reading too much into the iPod scene and in not seeing bad intent on the part of Dean. But at the same time, there is power to owning the one source of transportation between the two, and Dean does seem to often feel threatened whenever Sam asserts some independence. Remember in The Third Man when Dean started racing Sam because soulless Sam chose to keep his own car rather than take Dean up on his offer to drive the Impala? There was another quote in that episode from Dean, "Who died and made you the boss?" - just because Sam spoke to Dean in the tone Dean usually uses to speak to Sam. I guess my point is, just because it comes out in the form of a joke, it doesn't mean there isn't some underlying tension behind it.

I've been watching old episodes of Battlestar Galactica, and there's a theme that runs through it - that parents need to die for children to come into their own. While I'm not putting any blame on Dean, I can't help feeling that Sam is not fully reaching his potential because he's stuck in this little brother role. And when Sam tries to voice this, it comes out as "family holds you back" - comments voiced under the influence of a siren's spell or while soulless which incite a lot of Sam hate on the boards.

This discussion evolved into a debate on whether Dean wants Sam to drive the car, but it started with a lot of comments - while not overtly saying it - suggesting that Sam still needs to prove that he loves, and is there for, his brother. He's still be labeled as the bad brother because he sometimes asserts some independence.

I love Dean. I really do. But I love Sam too, and want and need Sam to grow as an independent and strong character too.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 21:58
I'm going to respectfully disagree, because I have always seen Sam as a strong and independent character. From the beginning, he was depicted as someone who was willing to go to college alone, even if it meant being cut off from his family, someone who was ready to single-mindedly pursue his goal, whether it be revenge, stopping Lilith, making amends for Lucifer, glimpsing what was behind the wall, etc. I haven't seen lack of vehicle stop Sam--we've seen him hitchhike, steal cars, or take the Impala when he deems it necessary. I just don't see Sam as some meek character always being held down by the man, so to speak. I like Sam as he is--a stubborn, independent, idealistic man who is willing to stand for his principles and do whatever it takes to reach his goal.

I will agree that there are times when being the little brother has its disadvantages-- just like there have been times when Sam has used it to his advantage. There are times when being the big brother has its advantages and its drawbacks. There are times when both brothers cling to their familial positions, and times where both chafe at them. Of course there's tension between them at times because of that--Sam wants to be equal, but there are times he wants to have that little brother shield. There are times when Dean wants to maintain his position as big brother, but others where he feels overwhelmed. That, to me, is normal. We've seen the brothers work as equal partners many times over the season--there are times when Dean backs down and listens to Sam, so why wouldn't there be times when Sam does the same?

Have there been times where Sam's search for independence have been shown as wrong by the writers? Absolutely, but, in my opinion, no more times than Dean has been shown as wrong for wanting to protect his brother. I don't see much point in arguing fan reaction, but I think I have discussed ways that the writers have invited fan contempt for Dean as well the last few days. Each side can list their complaints.

I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly hope I'm not supposed to be the one implying that Sam needed to prove his love, because that's not what I said. I said I enjoy seeing Sam show his care for Dean, much like some fans enjoy seeing from Dean, judging by the debates I've had on this site recently. Sam is not the cause of all of Dean's issues, but his care can help, and I'm not sure why it would be wrong to want to see that.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Sam being able to grow further as a character. I simply don't agree with the implication, or outright statement, that Dean is somehow responsible for Sam's ability to do so, or lack thereof.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-23 22:44
I think Sam's character started off in season one as a wonderfully complex, independent, but thoughtful, character. I think that's changed a lot since then, especially since mid season-6 when he got his soul back and lost his voice (I'm excluding the soulless period because I'm not sure what to make of that). I now see him backing off a lot when he should be standing his ground. I also don't see any movement toward him reestablishing his own identity post-Lucifer.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame Dean. I blame the writers. Dean's always had his issues, but it's only recently that Sam has been written as passively complying. I suspect the writers have been listening to a lot of the Sam hate around the net and neutering him to try to appease the faction that still thinks that Sam isn't there for Dean the way Dean is there for Sam. But the result is that they're destroying Sam's character.

Changing topics a little, last summer I remember reading a lot of comments posted on SPN articles about how Dean's story was always about saving Sam, and how we never get to see Dean be the one who needs saving. The Net was bombarded with these types of comments. So now we've just finished a season in which Sam's problems were minimized to a ridiculous degree, and Sam spent most of the season saving Dean rather than Dean saving Sam. Now fans are complaining that Dean is being portrayed as a weaker hunter than Sam. If you're looking for a reason for this, my guess is that the writers have been responding to the vocal fan groups who asked for this.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 23:29
I simply don't see Sam as having lost his voice. I don't really understand what you mean when you say Sam has lost his identity. I do still see team work between the brothers, which includes give and take on both sides.Sam has grown and is not as much the hotheaded 22-year-old he was, but that doesn't mean that he's only passively complying. Were there aftereffects of Sam's helltime/soulle ss time that changed Sam's behavior? Yes, but I don't feel that fundamentally changed who Sam was, and I think there's plenty of evidence that the strong-willed, independent Sam was still present this season. That is purely a matter of perspective, of course, so if you do I'm fine agreeing to disagree.

I find blaming fans for writers' choices a bit on par with blaming Dean, unfortunately. But I will say, for me, if this season was supposed to be the answer to Sam being there/taking care of Dean, they failed. When fans complained about Dean's storyline constantly being "Save Sam", they meant his active story was based around taking care of Sam and wanted a season where Sam's focus was on saving Dean. That is not what happened this season--we got many worried looks, several bitchfaces, some words, and finally "I don't care how you deal", before that plot was dropped completely. He didn't proactively help Dean with any of his issues. Dean fans didn't want Sam literally saving Dean from the MotW week after week--they wanted Sam to be allowed to help Dean with his issues. If show thought it was answering that call, they failed.

It is, to me, on par with how they failed with meeting some fans' call for having a Sam emotional storyline this season using his hell issues. They started well, but quickly realized they were in over their head and applied a quick fix with the hand bit before resolving the episode sloppily. Plus, some fans apparently now see Sam as complete wallpaper and not even a character, even though show was trying to give them what they wanted by depicting the hesitance someone who couldn't trust what he was seeing might have. Yes, there were some scenes revealing Sam's mental state, including that hestitance, and they did include a Sam breakdown, but I haven't read much from Sam fans that said they were happy with the state of events.

Is any of this the characters' fault? No. Is any of this the fans' fault? No. The writers, in the end, have to be responsible for what they write, and blaming other fanbases for things we don't care for in show is passing the buck, in my opinion. We can agree to disagree there as well, though.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 00:04
Oh, wait, I thought of one more thing! The summer before this season, even more than fans wanting Sam to have a storyline that revolved around saving/helping Dean, Dean fans wanted Dean to have an active role in the mytharc. In fact, I remember a primary part of the save Dean wish was that god!Castiel would have a special focus/hatred for Dean, and Sam would have to deal with his issues while having to find a way to protect Dean, who was in danger because of his connection to Cas. I bring this up because a role in the mytharc has been one of the primary demands of that fanbase, so if the PTB were trying to appease that fanbase, they completely and utterly missed the mark. Which is a writer/showrunn er/PTB problem, not a fanbase problem.

Oh, and I also again want to emphasize that I do not blame Sam for the fact that the caring for Dean "storyline" this season was, in my opinion, lacking. He had tremendous issues of his own to deal with, and he was doing the best he could. As was Dean in taking care of Sam. The writers really set both boys up with isolating storylines that didn't let either of them lend much help of understanding to one another because they were drowning in their own issues. But they did try, both with each other and to save the world, so I think they should be given credit at least for that.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-24 00:42
Just a couple of points. I won't argue that the writers failed miserably in a lot of what they seemed to be attempting this year. However, I do think the attempt was made to answer the demands from some of the vocal Dean fans. They had Sam attempting to save Dean at a great cost to himself (letting in Lucifer to save Dean from a demon) and they gave Dean a tie to the mytharc, which turned out to be Dick Roman. Dean was portrayed as being obsessed with revenge against Dick, he was the one to kill Dick, and he got sucked into Purgatory with Dick. The fact that the execution of these storylines wasn't very satisfying doesn't change the fact that the writers seemed to be trying to give the fanbase what they were asking for.

Getting back to the discussion on whether Sam has lost his identity, I'm curious how you would describe Sam's personality if you could only pull from this season, not from episodes from previous seasons. I'm pretty much drawing a blank slate. I don't recall any defining personality traits this season.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-24 06:04
I don't see how Dean-fan wishes have been answered in the least. Not like Season 5 was almost a check-list for "what I want to see for Sam" demands all throughout Season 4.

Dean having a mytharc connection? I don't see how he was the Leviathans Chosen One or anything so nope.

Dean regaining his badass hunter status? Nope. Being saved over and over again, freezing in fights just for the hell of it.

Dean getting something else than the same stupid emo depression crap for another year with the obnoxious boohoo speeches? Not even in my dreams.

To me the story in the last three years could have been written by Becky Rosen and we all know what she thought of Dean.
misty
# misty 2012-06-24 09:16
Yeah, I didn't get why Becky said'you're not what I expected' to Dean, what did she mean by that? Just because he's not as tall as Sam? Yeah so she was more attracted to Sam, nothing wrong with that, we all have preferences, but is was implied that Dean was chopped liver or something, (to me he's gorgeous). I understood why she disliked him after the fake wedding, because he wanted to break up her and Sam, but before that, I don't know why.
Going way back, I didn't understand WHY Missouri was so nice to Sam and so mean to Dean. Didn't make sense at all.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-24 09:39
With Missouri, I think Kripke just found it funny that someone was smug and ultra-bitchy to Dean, called him stupid, read his mind without permission etc.

That said, I found her entire persona off-putting, the cooing over Sam as if he was in diapers, the condescension towards the younger mother in the haunted house, the smugness over her abilities as a psychic (which were nothing to write home about according to this episode), her discussing clients with strangers.

She was written like a certain archetype that I personally would happily throw into a volcano and obviously Kripke and I do not share the same outlook on familial relationships or the same humour.

As for Becky and her first reaction to Dean, guess that was supposed to be funny as well. Now I found the character obnoxious from the start but the Dean-shunning didn't offend me much because he is hardly gonna be heartbroken about it.

I think when it comes to his looks (and sexual prowess), it is one of the few areas where Dean has a healthy confidence about himself. Anything else would be unrealistic, too. "Tens" are aware of what they have, simply by the reactions of those around him all their lifes. So, and not to be mean, but being shunned by the likes of Becky? No skin off his back.
misty
# misty 2012-06-24 11:52
Yeah but see, to me, we always see women react to seeing Sam like 'DAMN", and I get it because what woman wouldn't react to Sam that way. I certainly would. But in my opinion Dean's pretty damned hot too and I wish they sometimes would show a woman have that kind of reaction to HIM as well. They only came close in the dumb DYL episode where the hot blonde bartender obviously made up her mind very quickly that she intended to take him home with her, hence her telling him to 'slow your roll there cause I get off in an hour and don't want you to pass out on me" She must have really liked what she saw to decide that she was gonna have sex with him so quicklyLOL. But most of the time we only see women react that way to Sam.
If I saw Dean Winchester I would probably jump his bones right there LOL I think he's beautiful.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-24 12:49
But in my opinion Dean's pretty damned hot too and I wish they sometimes would show a woman have that kind of reaction to HIM as well.

In that area, I think they have. Maybe they haven't pushed it that much like with Sam when they do it so it doesn't stick out AS much but off the top of my head:

-Bela's reaction when he walked down the stairs in a tux,
- Jo was pretty much instantly attracted to him,
- the girl in the convention episode playing the ghost - she was disinterestly listening to his pick up lines, thinking he was another geeky Dean double UNTIL she looked at him and immediately changed her tune
-Jaime from Monster Movie
- Lisa's friends in the second ep of Season 3 were very clearly checking him out
- Pamela upon first meeting

And there were quite a few women in peril in various episodes who obviously were attracted to him, Hailey the girl from Wendigo, the mother Amy Acker played, various bartenders and women he got info from, that one actress he fanboyed, Anna.

Or even in the Season 6 opener when he was out with his neughbour friend and the guy remarked on Dean always getting waitresses numbers, even unbidden.

I haven't like all the writings for interaction between Dean and women, cast in point, I don't for the "put him in his place" bitchery style.

But I do not believe show implied that he is anything but scorching hot. There are a few remarks in in terms of dialogue and the character certainly doesn't have problems finding an attractive partner interested in a hook-up.

And I don't think they have even implied that women don't notice him next to Sam. They don't quite go after the same type, at least not seriously so this isn't an area where they are all that much in rivalry. But I think there have been women on the show who clearly fancied Dean over Sam upon first look as vice versa.
kaj
# kaj 2012-06-25 07:45
I think, this is just what I think. Well at the beginning of S6 someone said to Dean, i forget her name, that Dean has a ddelicate feature for a hunter. Sam too during his amnesia, it's written by Kripke too, that he saw a guy that looks like a male model in his memory when he didn't remember his brother.

What Becky meant, from the cover of Carver Edlund series that Dean and Sam were described though hunters with chisel jaws and bulky and super tall and broad-chested.

Well, Sam is that but Dean's (Jensen's) appearance are more delicate to what the book cover implied.

And Dean was written as badass hero, though, strong, muscles, bulky, with an attitude. And Becky caressed Sam's chest definitely her taste is a guy like that.

:D :D :D Not that it's bad. I mean I like Dean (Jensen) the way he is now. Not too bulky, just proportional. Jared is the one that's bulked up.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-25 12:05
I think she was just supposed to be an ultra Samgirl and the writers found it funny like that. I even hear she was modeled after a real life fan but that might be conjecture.

However, in this case, I think Dean looking like he does, it wasn't supposed to come across as a legitime putdown that the audience should agree with and laugh at him.

The show has done out of its way (some of it was even a bit mean) to portray Becky as someone who is uber-pathetic and bodily hideous (don't know where that comes from, the actress is quite lovely) so they probably envisioned the audiences simply laughing at her, thinking that he outclasses her anyway and not going "in your face, Dean".

I mean, if that were me and Dean were on the other end of the room - I'd be the elbow and everyone else out of the way. Though he gets some tough competition from youngJohn. Mwror.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 09:37
That's my feeling as well, Sasha. I see no sign that this season is somehow a whirlwind of Dean fan wish fulfillment. If it was supposed to be, the writers completley and utterly failed, as you pointed out, to meet the points you described.

As for the fourth point I saw--Sam's story centering around saving/taking care of Dean, they failed there too, because fans didn't want Dean standing on the sidelines while Sam killed MotW after MotW. They wanted to see Sam actively working to save Dean, either as part of Dean's mytharc or in actually helping him resolve some of his issues. We saw neither of things, either.

As I said before, the writers did as well fulfilling Dean fans' wishes for a mytharc storyline and Dean resolving his issues and regaining his joy as they did fulfilling Sam fans' wishes that he would have an emotional storyline this season. So either they were focused on wish fulfillment and completely failed at everything, or else they were doing whatever they wanted this season and it still ended up a mess. My suspicion is they did the latter, but that's just me.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 09:21
I would have to disagree that Dean's "obsession" was a tie to the mytharc. Since Dean's obsession was in name only, I consider no more than another illusion of a storyline. Show tends to do that with Dean a lot, so it's easy to recognize if you're looking for it. If Dean was really obsessed, he would be solely focused on the Leviathan, unwilling to look at work on any other case. From 7.11 on, we saw nearly the same opening scene for the boys. Dean calls Frank/reads a paper so we know the Leviathan still exist, Sam brings them a case, and after one or two comments about why getting Dick is important Dean easily agrees to go on the hunt. Hardly obsessive behavior.

If killing Dick was meant to be a connection to the mytharc, I never saw it as one. If killing Dick indicates a deep connection to the mytharc, I guess Dean was somehow the focus of the YED arc and Ruby? No, I don't think we can argue that. I'm sorry, but I disagree that Dean was timed to the mytharc this year and that the writers were trying to make him so. If so, they're more inept than I thought. In fact, since Bob Singer basically told us that the Dick's death was Crowley's trick to get Castiel trapped in purgatory and Dean just happened to be in the way, I find myself quite doubtful that they saw it that way, either.

I feel that we still saw Sam as a compassionate and forgiving individual, based upon his dealings with Castiel. I feel we still saw Sam as an independent and secretive person, as he was determined to handle his hell issues on his own, as well as the Amy issue. We see that Sam is still a brother, who showed some concern for Dean, even if show didn't allow him to do much actively in that regard and his instant willingness to go against his usual principles of giving chances when he killed Emma. We see that Sam is still stubborn, unwilling to listen to Dean's reasons for why to kill Amy. We see that Sam is traumatized by his hell hallucinations, a bit more hesitant to trust what's in front of him. We also learn that he's focusing on small hunts because he needs something small and concrete to keep it together, by Sam's own words. We still see that Sam wants to give second chances to the supernatural, shown in 7.3 and 7.5. We saw that Sam is still the ends justify the means big picture guy in 7.22, when he's willing to deal with the alpha vamp for blood. We see he's still committed to saving people, due to his insistence on saving the alpha's child victim.

To me, that's a lot of personality/cha racter traits, but again, that's just me.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 09:22
Tied to the mytharc. Drats again.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-24 11:09
On the first part, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I never said this season was "a whirlwind of Dean fan wish fulfillment," but it makes more sense to me that the long Dean emo arc and the emphasis on Dean's need for revenge were a poorly executed attempt to give Dean fans what it sounded like they were asking for, rather than an attempt to portray Dean as a lesser hunter than Sam, as some commenters have suggested.

On the Sam part, thanks for answering my question. I agree with some of this, specifically that he has been consistently portrayed as compassionate, forgiving, and secretive (he's guarded about what's going on with him personally). I wouldn't call having a different opinion than Dean about Amy "stubborn" (and the fact that he was the first to bend on the Amy situation implies that he was not stubborn), and I don't agree with the assessment that his reaction to the alpha vamp shows he had an "ends justify the means" personality trait since he wouldn't sacrifice the child to the vamp. Another example where he went with the victim rather than the "big picture" was Adventures in Babysitting, where he argued for rescuing Krissy rather than going after Dick Roman. The parts about him being traumatized and hesitant really aren't personality traits so much as reactions to his current storyline.

My reaction to this is that compassionate, forgiving, and secretive doesn't exactly make a well-rounded character profile, and I can't think of any additional ones to add. I understand that people have different ideas on what they expect to get out of the show, but compared to the depth Sam's character had near the beginning of the series, this is leaving me wanting a lot more.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 13:14
I'll agree to disagree. In my view, a long emo Dean arc where he's constantly treated as and as a worse hunter than he used to be, as well lesser for having issues and the drive-by obsession arc that went nowhere fulfilled none of the wishes I saw Dean fans express, nor did it seemed designed to.

I do see Sam as a stubborn individual (I think Dean is as well). I do think he has tunnel vision when it comes to a goal or an idea, and I saw that from him this year. When I speak of the Amy situation, I simply refer to the fact that he had the idea in his head that Amy was like him, so he was able to disregard her victims as victims. I could similiarly see his commitment to sticking to small hunts as stubborn. I don't think being stubborn is a bad thing necessarily.

He has consistently projected his own fears onto others, whether it be the special kids or Dean. He did it this year in projecting that seeing Amy as a freak = seeing Sam as a freak. He projected his desire not to confront his issues in 7.1 as Dean can't handle it (and yes, Dean said he didn't want something to be wrong, but he told Bobby he knew that there had to be).

We consistently saw Sam being a great hunter, even though at times it seemed like he shouldn't have been. He was smart, focused, and able to do the job. I think since S4 Sam has been consistently less patient with the PiP, and I think that showed this season.

I do think Sam is more consistently a big picture person, though there were times that he saw the small picture first, like with Krissy. I think before this season Dean was more consistently a small picture person, but this year his apathy led his scope to narrow even more. I do see Sam as more of an ends justifies the means person, but he does have principles. He isn't going to leave a child with a monster, but he is wiling to hold his nose to bargain with one fairly consistently, and at times this has been the right strategy. If Sam's hell damage makes him act in a consistent way, then that does become part of his personality, but that's just my opinion.

I feel like I've listed a lot more personality attributes than compassionate, forgiving, and secretive, and all the things I've listed do make up a layered character. I feel that Sam is actually deeper than what I saw in S1, when it was pretty much revenge, guilt, and visions. But as always, miles vary.
cd28
# cd28 2012-06-24 13:49
Just wanted to comment on one point, and that is that overall I see Sam as more of a big picture person, but not this season. The big picture would be focusing on the Leviathans, but Sam kept chasing the smaller cases. I'm reading nothing more into this than the writers wanted Dean focused on Dick so they had Sam's voice be the one advocating for the other cases. Since we weren't given a hint as to why Sam seemed to be avoiding hunting the Leviathans, I'm going with his reactions as being out-of-characte r writing and an example of plot driving the characters. I know we won't agree on Amy, so I'll pass on saying more about her. :-)
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 13:50
Good post, cd28! Sam is in desperate need of some emotional exploration and character development. He is "wallpaper" in that the writers give him no thoughts or feelings about the things happening to him. It's odd!
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-24 14:15
I have said for a long time now that I would have no problems with a straight out swap.

Others seem to consider the emo thing Dean gets as a prize while to me with the way they do it, it's the worst thing to heap on a character.

Meanwhile what is found so lacking for Sam sounds like a huge banquet for a character for me. I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Going by the various complaints on either characters, it seems that with a real reversal, it could make a lot of people happy.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-24 14:40
I can understand thinking that having a mytharc story is wonderful and I guess for Dean it would be because the other parts of the character have been so well explored so giving him something like that would be diffrent for him.

Sam not having that sort of exploration of character the mytharc give him a different situation , hidden sl's lack of pov etc did hurt the character .I wouldnt really see Sam getting a emotional arc has a prize as more a late than never scenario . I dont believe we would get a role reversal to be honest anyway as there is no way they wouldnt give Dean either a pov or emotional follow up to anything he goes through even if he has a 'mytharc' story.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 15:18
I think it's easy to think what the other character has is better than what your favorite has. I completely understand why Sam fans are dying for more emotional exploration and POV, and I understand why Dean fans want to feel that connection to the mytharc. Each character has been denied part of the story. I think the ideal answer is for both Sam and Dean to get a larger action/mytharc story as well as an emotion throughline with POV.
lala2
# lala2 2012-06-24 15:18
Exactly! In Seasons 4 and 5, Dean got both the mytharc and the emotional POV. I'm not complaining because that is what a good writer is supposed to do, IMO.

However, with Sam, I feel we only got the POV along with the mytharc in the first two seasons. Sam was much more fleshed out in the earlier seasons. Now, he's less fleshed out. The writers no longer seem interested in Sam or what he thinks.
Sasha
# Sasha 2012-06-24 15:51
However, with Sam, I feel we only got the POV along with the mytharc in the first two seasons.

Which is the same amount of Seasons with mytharc and POV you just named for Dean.

However, I doubt, if they truly actually did the so-called emo "storyline" with Sam in the way they have been doing it with Dean, constantly harping on the negatives for the character, constantly harping on how weak, whiny and pathetic he is, having a string of character giving him "boohoo" speeches that get cheered on by fandom, that THAT would be something embraced as wonderful if it happened.

I'm not saying the writing for Sam is wonderful and nothing ever gets dropped but at least I can legitimately say that if he were the mythical Chosen One, got the glorified badass moments, the same amount of supernatural "it wasn't really him" for any bad action and all that stuff, I would be more than okay with it. It wouldn't bug me if he didn't get one scene of POV in it during the entire Season (and really, it's not like Sam never gets those either).
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 14:36
I think it's hyperbolic to claim that Sam is "wallpaper" and we've had no insight into his thoughts and feelings. Has it been less of a view than we've had with Dean? Yes, but that doesn't mean we've gotten nothing. On the other hand, I'll certainly agree that we could use more emotional exploration, character development, and POV from Sam. I would have no problem seeing that in S8.

I would agree, cd28, that show's sudden switch of Dean and Sam's small picture/big picture outlooks to be out of character, as well as plot driving the characters. I'll agree to disagree about Amy, as well as the "Dean is obsessed" actually translating into a real storyline, because in my view 2 minutes of repeating the same dialogue at the beginning of some episodes does not actually equal a storyline.

I think, Sasha, the grass is always greener on the other side. Doesn't mean we shouldn't all get to get a taste, right?
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 22:14
And see, I think they've portrayed Sam as the independent and strong character, and have tried to portray Dean as the one tied to family without his own identity. LOL Just goes to show how twp people can watch the same thing and see something completely different.
As far as the Impala goes, and by now I'm regretting even bringing up that subject but, I think the reason it's so important to Dean is precisely because he doesn't have his own identity apart from his family, so a lot of his identity is wrapped up in 'Baby'.
That's what drives this show, the passion in brings out in it's fans!y6qhb
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-06-24 07:18
Computer not alot really? .I just would like to of Sam to have had something more personal to his name. Dean has the car given to him by his dad .Sam has a computer given to him by Frank because he destroyed his other one.

I would love for Sam to of had a personal something either of John or his mum or even Jessica it would make Sam more human and less mechanical and his personality less reliant on something Supernatural .

I dont get fussed over car's but the Impala is Dean's and it is more often than not underlined but it is the only vehicle the boys have so Sam has no choice but to use it.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-24 08:47
If we're going to change the criteria of what counts as Sam having something of his own, then I suppose not. I can understand Sam wanting something more personal, but that doesn't mean Sam doesn't have anything. I don't see the Impala's ownership as a big deal to Sam--after all, it's still the home whose presence helped save the world. Obviously, mileage varies.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-06-27 12:46
Dean has car (dad),amulet (Sam) and Bobby (flask)...I am not saying Dean should not have anything but Dean possessing these things gives his character layers..Sam well it just seems they have treated him clinically .There is nothing called his which Dean will safeguard or atleast keep with him till his return and then return it to Sam's possession..Sam does not have anything specific by which atleast i can remember him by.
Demise of the brothers relationship or the brotherhood itself was shown by amulet..Dean and Dean's return by car...Bobby by flask..Cas had his trenchcoat...Sa m by ?(laptop which was not even mentioned in Sam's absence) Sorry for the sarcasm below
I must have forgotten Dean staring at the laptop when Sam was missing
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 16:10
And it's not that I necessarily want Dean to become a cannibal or monster, just that I don't know any other way he's going to get sustenance. He's human and alive. There's no food in Purgatory is there? So what else is he gonna eat in order to stay alive, keep his strength of, and fight off all those monsters there?
I don't think we'll ever see a completely guilt free Dean. That's just not who he's ever been. But it would be nice if at least some of it was alleviated so it wouldn't be so crushing, and he could, every once in a while find some joyful moments. The clown episode was the first time I can recall him laughing in a long while.
emmau
# emmau 2012-06-23 17:22
No, there's a lot about purgatory that we don't know yet. We don't know how Dean will get sustenance (though I'm not sure why we're assuming there will only be monsters to eat), how he will get the rest his body will require, how he'll deal with injuries, etc. It's one of the things I'm interested to find out.

I doubt we'll ever see a completely guilt free Dean, and in truth I don't think it's who he is. We agree completely there. But like you said, I just wish it wasn't a heavy cloud hanging over his head all the time, raining on everything he does. I can but hope.
misty
# misty 2012-06-23 22:19
Well usually in Purgatory, everything there is dead monsters, but Dean is human and he's alive. In Hell he was dead, but he's alive here so it brings up all kinds of questions. Obviously Purgatory was not created with living human beings in mind. I think his eyes with be red though for a while because I just think that's a part of just being in there for a while.
Sage
# Sage 2012-06-24 10:49
As long as they don't give it a quick solving as 'Cas finds food'-because, yes, at this point I'm afraid they'd feel no shame doing something like that- or they decide not to adress it at all...

In fact, I keep my hopes that Dean is alone in purgatory, and Cas somewhere else. It'd make things way more interesting.