In my analysis of season six Dean Winchester, my heart was pretty broken for the guy come the end of it. His struggles in that season were especially hard and no matter how much he tried, he couldn’t catch a break. He fought on though and did the best he could, despite the fact that his drinking was at an all time high and he was reeling at the end over the betrayal of his best friend. A betrayal that harmed the one person that Dean cherishes more than anyone, his brother. That was crossing an unforgivable line.
I so wish I could say that season seven continued in this same vein, with Dean finding enough of his fighting spirit and love for his brother to handle the numerous obstacles that came his way. Sadly, Dean spent a majority of the season apathetic and depressed, going through the motions without any fire or desire to carry on the family business. He certainly didn’t open up to his brother, which rendered the once tight brotherly bond stale. We waited all season for him to finally get the kick in the pants he needed and slip out of his funk, but he never did.
Season seven’s largest and most grossest failure is easily the characterization of both Sam and Dean individually and with their relationship. In going through the “Deeper Look” segments this year, the tone at times will stray toward bitter and exasperated, for the lost potential and blatant stripping of these beloved characters into bland, emotionless machines just didn’t work for me. While Sam’s story screams lost potential, Dean’s screams the inability of the writers to truly grasp his real spirit. I don’t recognize this Dean Winchester, and quite frankly, I don’t want to.
The purpose here is to explore Dean Winchester’s character progression from beginning of season seven to the end by going through each episode. In past seasons, promising patterns and real character growth unfolded from this exercise. With Dean this year, you will see no such progression. In some cases, regression even happens. It’s still an interesting study though, and if anything will serve as a good bottom line comparison for next season!
Meet The New Boss
Poor Dean. I really feel for him in this one. His spirit is broken, and for good reason. He just lost Lisa and Ben in his life, Castiel is unstoppable in his sudden God complex, Sam collapses and falls into another coma, and even the Impala is damaged. She is about the only thing he can fix, so that’s where his attention lies. When Sam wakes up seemingly okay, Dean wants to pretend everything is good, but he knows better. He’s been burned too bad by the past. Turns out he’s right.
After a little prodding from Sam, it’s nice to see he still cares by coming up with the risky plan to trap Death so he can kill “God”, but that doesn’t work. All that’s left is to reason with Cass, but he’s too hurt to contact Castiel directly and Sam ends up doing it. Of course he’s also hurt because Sam didn’t tell him about the hallucinations either and he had to find out from Death. He’s not taking any of this well. He’s even resorting to spending his time drinking and watching cartoon porn (an interesting if not disturbing new vice). By the end his reservations about their bad luck are valid. He helps Castiel send the monsters back to Purgatory, but not the deadliest of them all, the Leviathan. While this is happening, Sam disappears.
Yes, this is the defeated Dean Winchester. It’s not fun to watch, but in this episode, it was appropriate. He had every reason to feel this way given that all the events of season six led up to this. The standout scene for his is in the garage with Bobby, talking about whether Sam is really okay. He wants to believe it, he really really wants to believe it, but he knows better. “But I’m not dumb. I’m not getting my hopes up just to get kicked in the daddy pills again.”
Hello Cruel World
THIS is Dean Winchester at his finest. Oh why oh why didn’t it last? Why didn’t he evolve from this? It’s not flipping fair! (Storms off in tantrum).
Dean jumps into full fledged protective big brother mode because Sam has fallen into a series psychotic break. This is the Dean we know and love. When the chips are down, family comes first. After finding Sam caught in a meltdown at the lab, he wastes no time trying to get some answers about what’s happening (after letting Sam have a long sleep). Sam comes clean, he can’t tell what is real and is seeing Lucifer now. This disturbs Dean a lot, but he’s determined to get Sam through this, despite his reservations that this kind of crazy is something he can’t easily fix. He opts to keep a close eye on Sam, taking precautions like turning on the GPS on Sam’s cell. In the meantime Bobby tries to get Dean to open up but he won’t. He’s too focused on Sam right now.
Oh, that gorgeous scene in the warehouse. Sam is caught in a psychotic episode and can’t pull himself out of it. Dean calmly talks him through it, giving Sam the trick that will get him through a good chunk of the season. Sam needs to use the pain from his cut up hand to tell what’s real. Most important, Dean is able to get through just by appealing to their brotherly bond.
“Believe in that. Believe me. You better make it stone number one and build on it, you understand?"
Oh Dean, I just fell in love with you all over again.
The Girl Next Door
Let my primal screaming begin.
How can things tonally shift so positive to so negative with a character so fast? What were they thinking? The last episode closed with Dean frantically worrying about Sam going into seizures as they are in the ambulance together, headed toward harm’s way. How did everything shift from Dean pulling himself out of his rut by being in protective big brother mode to this?
From here on out, it all becomes a polarizing character shift. For one, as soon as Bobby finds Dean in the hospital, Dean doesn’t seem to be concerned about Sam at all. Then Sam has a little “episode” in the cabin for a minute and Dean freaks out. What happened to stone number one? Oh, but none of that compares to the rest of this atrocity. Sam takes off (a point I’ll argue as completely stupid at another time), Dean angrily hunts him down and then punches him in the very spot on the skull where Sam was recently wounded by Edgar? The one that rendered him unconscious and seizing in a hospital? Not only does he trounce on Sam physically, he pretty much takes any trust Sam has ever earned with him and throws it out the window.
So suddenly Dean has a black and white view of monsters again and Sam’s plea to let Amy go means nothing to him? They’ve let plenty of monsters go in the past. How about the end of season five when he worked with Crowley, a demon, to get what he needed, the ring off of Death. He knew it was playing with fire but those were desperate times. Dean hasn’t been a black and white hunter for a long while. So, when a past acquaintance of Sam’s shows up that just happens to be a monster and he hunts her down and kills her, because she’s a “monster”, we’re supposed to accept that as character growth? Especially when he lets her monster son go after he kills her in front of him? He left a boy without his mother? Dean? The man who is still carrying deep scars over losing his own mother?
Oh, but that’s nothing compared to the fact that Dean did this behind Sam’s back, right after promising him he wouldn’t kill Amy. Have we not gotten past this lying to each other crap? Again, going back to season five, the brothers put all that dishonesty behind them and came to a new understanding. I do accept that Dean’s faith recently may have been shaken by Sam’s psychotic break, but his actions still screamed out of character to me. This even affected Dean’s actions in the upcoming episodes, for this indescribable drama was dragged on senselessly for four more episodes before getting an quick and “swept under the rug” ending.
Welcome THE major blunder of season seven. Two seasons of rich character growth wiped away by one crappy script.
Defending Your Life
And the *headdesk* banging continues to incredulous new levels. Dean’s depressed, no he’s angry, no he’s hiding something, no he’s confronting his past, no he’s too flipping resigned to care. Ugh. Do not give a characterization heavy episode to a writer who doesn’t get the characters (I’m pointing at you Adam Glass). Both Sam and Dean were off in this one but man was Dean’s character butchered.
If anything, this was a concept of lost opportunity. Fans usually like anything that will bring up the volumes of Dean guilt out there, the stuff that bogs him down to where he sometimes can’t function right (like this ep). Bringing back Jo certainly looked good on paper, and the scenes between her and Dean were gorgeous from an emotional perspective, but they were pointless. Dean didn’t learn anything from this ordeal of being condemned to Death for his guilt (yes, by an Egyptian God. That goes in the “What were they thinking?” archives). It’s even worse with Sam. He kept lying to Sam, which was one of those guilt things thrown at us like a bowling ball to the head. We get it, he suffers a ton of guilt over what’s happened to Sam. Thanks for bringing up character point that’s only been around since the Pilot. Isn’t he supposed to take this knowledge and move on, be better for it when seen in this light? Nope, he carries on like nothing is wrong.
Of course maybe he’s too blown away by the fact that Sam is declaring with a smile he’s good, and that he’s paid for all his guilt by going to Hell. Wait a second, I seem to recall another Winchester brother spending some valuable penance time in Hell as well. Hold on, it’s on the tip of my tongue…Yeah, you get it. It’s almost like Adam Glass never watched that crucial part of the series in which Dean was flung into Hell and then pulled out months (or 40 Hell years) later. Absolutely none of this so called character trial of Dean amounted to anything other than frustrated fans primal screaming over what senselessness has attacked their beloved older Winchester.
Shut Up Dr. Phil
The lies continue, the bile rising in my throat continues, and it’s especially heavy handed considering they’ve blatantly started with Dean the drunk having his morning cocktail while Sam the happy well adjusted health nut (yes, I’ll harp on that in the Sam Winchester article) is off for his morning jog. Oh, why don’t I use this to pull out an old metaphor form my high school days. “Gag me with a spoon.”
All in all, the episode was fluff and did nothing for either character. In Dean’s case, it existed to just drag on this senseless rut he’s in - one that he just doesn’t seem to pull himself out of even when Sam finally begs for the truth at the end. The primal screaming continues.
Dean gets some of that fighting spirit back, which is good, but seeing an evil version of himself didn’t hurt that’s for sure. Actually, considering all the crap we’ve gotten the last three episodes, it’s a freaking breath of fresh air. However, instead of coming clean with Sam about Amy, his Leviathan doppelganger drops the bomb instead. Sam gets hurt, then pissed, then doesn’t want to be with him right now (we’ll save that little critique for the Sam article). Dean doesn’t try to fight. He let’s Sam go away.
I actually like this. Dean accepts he was wrong and trusts Sam to go off and have his cooling off period. It’s way more respect than he has given Sam all season, which is kind of why they’re in this mess in the first place. Perhaps he is learning. At least they didn’t show him going off to a bar to drown his sorrows. This Dean I understood.
Dean is carrying on without Sam, continuing to work. It’s not really a coincidence to him that they end up in the same town chasing after the same case. He tries to keep it professional for Sam, but when they exchange words, he won’t apologize. He still thinks what he did was right. I’m still pounding my head on the desk wondering why they’re still talking about this. So Dean is shown to be a jerk by calling Sam a bitch. Ugh. Lucky for Dean, Ellen is out there in the great beyond to kick some sense in him.
In the end it’s Sam that forgives, so after all that flipping drama, Dean FINALLY admits he’s having a hard time trusting people after Castiel and he’s sorry. Drama all done. Wow, that was so, logical and grown up. Why didn’t they lead with that in “Defending Your Life?” Is Dean finally back on the right track? He even bonded with the leading lady, which is something we haven’t seen in a good long while. It made us smile. This is how you treat your main character.
Season Seven: Time For A Wedding
Aside from the fact we got to see Dean exasperated the entire episode and in a sweater and jacket, this was a completely pointless hour of television for both guys. Although Dean trying to make bygones by giving Sam a waffle iron as a wedding gift was pretty funny. He does care. Too bad he wasn’t smart enough to see that Sam was being drugged. He should have suspected that right off the bat, or at least after he tried to rationalize with Sam and saw it wasn’t working. If anyone recognizes out of character behavior, it’s Dean. He figured it out in “Swap Meat.” I mean, marrying Becky alone should have involved a head thump and a forced trip to the institution for Sammy.
How To Win Friends and Influence Monsters
Remember that recognizing the drugging thing? Sam and Bobby figured out what the turducken was doing to Dean halfway through the episode. At least they know out of character. To be honest, I really liked seeing Dean with a "who cares?" attitude. For one, it was funny. See what happens when such a character twist is put in the right care? What was nice about his though is Dean was feeling quite defeated before he even tasted the sandwich, so that seemed to only exacerbate existing issues. It was about time. The only thing missing was Sam and Dean actually talking about it! They talk to Bobby about their problems, but not each other? I know that this likely suffered due to an issue in time, but considering they went the entire season without having that conversation, without checking in to see how the other was doing, it’s just another bit of frustration to an already growing fire.
For me, this season was 98% filler. Most of the episodes were pointless and a waste of time, IMO. Even Bobby's death was filler. I mean . . . what purpose did it serve? It was quite unnecessary.
This season was a complete and utter train wreck!
Defending Your Life is a fairly good example. In Point of No Return, Bobby actually screams at Dean for even thinking of giving up. But Dean finds it quite fine to let Jo kill him in DYL? Really? Because ... uh ... um ... yeah, got nothing.
The fact that the writers have been making the boys worse and worse hunters as the seasons progress is additional problem. It's difficult to find your get up and go when you can't figure out what something is, and therefore how to kill it without being able to phone home to Bobby for the answers. It amazes me that they managed to get through S1 without him.
The story arc (the season's story line) can be blamed on SG and BS presumably. Failing to come up with one. The individual episode failures can be placed squarely with the writers involved. But the lack of character development, the deliberate ignoring of events in the character's lives that would affect what they do now, these things lie with the producers - SG and BS are supposedly the authorities having been around since the beginning. Those who listen to fan whining instead of having creative ideas themselves, however, will always choose the wrong path.
It was devastating that Dean 'forgot' about his feelings regarding Cas' betrayal for almost the whole season. Oh well, guess the writer's forgot about it. And more devastating that Sam's 'hallucinations ' suddenly acquired an actual living entity of their own, only to disappear suddenly when it was no longer required. That is poor writing. That is really, really poor writing.
Fingers crossed that S8 will do better, but frankly don't hold your breath because coming back from the out of character, illogical mess of S6 & S7 ... it's probably not possible.
I can go with that.
In a nutshell, Alice. You just had to twist the knife, didn't you Your tone, however, isn't nearly as bitter and exasperating as I would have put it. Everyone knows that I'm a 100% Dean girl, and I've been very focal that I'm nearly at the end of my patience with what this show has done to Dean's character these last two seasons (never forgetting SS though).
Despite that, I really felt for Sam's character all season . I don't know what the hell they were doing with Sam. In fact, I didn't know which of the various Sam incarnates I was going to see from one episode to the other. At least with Dean, I knew the writers just weren't spinning him in circles from one episode to the next with no apparent story -- ergo, something good and miraculous had better happen with Dean in S8 that keeps me vested in this show.
For one, I want two recognizable characters put back on my TV screen.
Two: I want each of the two[/b ]leads to have a coherent story -- no more Supernatural presents the Guest of the Week SPN or entire seasons dedicated to the story of one support character and no more having Dean not connected to the story.
I want the Impala back in every episode.
I want the grit put back in a horror/drama show and take the emoting, personal journey crap over to Lifetime TV.
I don't care if the brothers work alone with other support characters or together, but I definitely want a layered story that I have some investment in. I want the story to reflect something worth going after and something achieved that gives character growth to each of the two leads. If the story furthers the mythical brothers' bond along the way -- great -- but so much damage has been done to that bond that it's pretty well on the back burner for me now. It'd be nice if S8 ended to where I believed in it again, but I'll start with baby steps and demand that I get Dean Winchester back. That's my line for S8.
I certainly can deal with the boys having separate stories for a while, if they both get character development while doing so. They BOTH need to have coherent storylines. They both need to be connected to the story.
Honestly, I think I was a little bitter that the mid-season break had nothing to do Sam or Dean - the two leads - having some massive breakdown, but rather focused on Bobby.
But I dont really know what happened after that ?.
I pray God it's a longer story arc and maybe they still are going to right some of these things in 8. That all of this inexplicable behavior in season 7 will be explained. Because looking at individual episodes, I still really liked the season and it could easily get back up to love if I have a reasonable explanation for Dean's behavior (deal with Sam in his) this season.
I know a lot of people are just saying they're writing this season off, but I have no desire to do that I just want some reason. Even if a bit of revisionist history is involved. Especially with Dean attitude towards Sam. Hands down #1 problem for me. And his attitude with Ghost Bobby which I understood slightly more, but was never fully explained. And his no mercy with monsters view (except when he lets them go - ugh!, although this is even more of Sam issue for me than Dean).
Maybe they're all interconnected. That Dean is totally messed up right now and really hasn't trusted Sam all season or maybe this has all been percolating down since the demon blood and he kept pushing it down and never dealt with it because he loves Sam so much he and at first was just happy he got him back and didn't want to think about anything that happened before. But with Cas' betrayal and even Bobby turning into a "monster" all his irrational fears keep rising to the surface regardless of how he tries to drive them back down. And that is where a lot of the guilt comes from because he knows he should let it go and wants to let his fears about Sam go but can't because time after time he's seen monsters give into they're instinct and has even seen Sam succumb.
.......Okay I totally started a stream of consciousness rant here. None of this has been thought out really so don't kill me.
But in a way (as much as I hate the boys being at odds) I would prefer this because it actually would make sense as to why Dean as been acting the way he has. And it give them an opportunity to deal with some of the lingering problems and doubts about each other (which some people don't think they have-so now I AM going to get killed).
Okay I am going to quit thinking about this now.
Fantastic article Alice. Obviously very thought provoking for me. LOL.
One thing I just don't get, is all the fuss about him killing Amy. Would you want her living next door to you, especially in flu season?
So Sam was sentimentally attached to this monster who saved his life. Understood. But as much as I sympathised with his point of view, I was delighted when Dean finished her off. As far as killing the witches, they weren't able to kill them as they were too too powerful for them and Sam seems to not have powers without blood drinking.
I also unerstood why Dean kept it from Sam at that time as Sammy was having enough problems with hellucinations and Lucifer at him all the time.
Ah well, I'm hoping against hope that we get our Dean, THE DEAN, back sometime next season. Perhaps he will return in Purgatory to help him survive there.
Defending Your Life was written poorly, and so much potential in the premise was absolutely wasted. And Time for a Wedding? Uck! Please, no more Becky ever! Other than those two, I enjoyed nearly every other one this season, probably because the brothers were not at odds in every episode, with the exception of Sam AGAIN walking away in a snit.
With Carver and Edlund and Robbie Thompson on board next season seems promising. Whatever, I'll still be watching, no matter what.
And as Alice mentioned, the Amy kill also meant betraying Sam's trust. Whereas the witches wouldn't have and there wasn't even a mention of the inconsistency, even through Dean was still wrestling with the Amy kill in that episode. URGGGHHH. I REALLY hope this is going somewhere next season in purgatory because otherwise it really does irritate me.
Also since Sam basically ends up agreeing with him later, it kind of makes the kill all monsters with no grey areas the singular idea of the show, which was even backed up with Bobby going temporarily bad and having to be S an B. And that I have a SERIOUS problem with. Because by this philosophy SAM should be killed. After all he has demon blood in him, he drank demon blood and killed that nurse the demon was inhabiting(in addition to all the other demons he drank) in order to kill Lilith, which released Lucifer. That's a whole lot more damage than Amy did by killing drug dealers. Yeah he was trying to save the world but she was trying to save her son. And to have motto like that, for this show especially, is just wrong. A few unexplained plot points or gaps that aren't filled in I can take, but this is black and white attitude towards good and evil I can't. It is fundamental to the show and its characters.
I don't want to be a negative Nelly nitpicker but this is the best explanation I have as to why I can't just let the Amy thing go completely.
On a less ranty note, I just want to say I like that your comments are generally upbeat and positive (and with the others who I like that as well.) I liked almost all the individual episode this seasons. I even liked the Becky one.
Totally with on DYL.
Sam could have been redeemed if he had refused to kill the nurse and found his powers inside himself at the last minute. Ruby did say he didn't need the blood. But they wrote him into a corner with the drinking gallons of it in order to best Lucifer. I don't really think that ANYTHING Sam would ever do would cause Dean to actually kill him. He loves him too much and would probably kill himself before doing that, or right after if he did do it.
And Cas? He not only killed many people, but massacred nearly all of the angels upstairs! And fans still love him and want him redeemed.
Yes I see your point clearly. It was hypocritical, as most monsters have never done as much damage as those two.
It's just that I preferred the almost black and white monsters of the first 3 seasons and Amy seemed to me to be one of those. And we can't have Dean offing both Sam and Cas as then there would be no show that I LOVE.
When I think about it too much it spoils my enjoyment so I try to take it one at a time.
As to my not liking Time for a Wedding, i did enjoy Garth tremendously and hoped he would return. Just something about Becky turns me off, and it is not because she reminds me of myself as a fan. And Sam would have to be drugged to the gills to ever contemplate marriage with her, and Dean should know that! So, I do nitpick myself quite a bit, just don't usually broadcast it as I don't like bringing others down with my opinions.
I actually consider Sam's body count to not be that high. Out of all the demons he killed, the only one that Dean might not have taken out was the nurse and even that was iffy. If Dean had come on the nurse taking kids from the hospital, he would have used the knife without any thought. I mean, yes Dean wouldn't have drained the demons, but the hosts would have been just as dead. The same goes for the demons Sam drained in the Famine episode. If Dean had been able he would have killed them as well. That's what the Winchesters do, kill demons and the knife is faster than an exorcism and it also means the demon doesn't return.
Frankly, we also see absolutely no concern for the vessels of angels either. In my view, the boys should view Cas with as much horror as they do demons because of his possession of Jimmy Novack. They know what it is like to grow up without a parent and like it or not, Castiel doomed Claire to that existence. Yet, other than showing Raphael's broken host, we are asked to ignore those who the angels took over.
It's a plot point that is consistently swept under the rug, unless it is needed to make a different plot point. Then it rears its head all over again.
It doesn't matter until it does again. My sister hated Dean killing Amy. I, myself, didn't care, but she hated it. And though she loves Sam, she called Dean out on being a hypocrite b/c he hasn't killed Sam who has also killed people while drinking DB or being soulless, etc. I think it's actually pretty human and realistic to show that hypocrisy. It's like someone making fun of a sibling but not tolerating anyone else doing the same.
As far as killing possesed people, I do think we're led to believe that angels are "nicer" w/their host bodies than demons. Demons ride people rough and hard; angels do not.
But as you pointed out, angels may not cause the body to be harmed in the physical world (i.e., gun shots, knife wounds, etc.), but I believe the longer they're in a body, the more damage they do by their presence (i.e., Raphael's host body).
First, as others have pointed out, there's the hypocrisy. You can joke about flu season, but the way the writers presented this story, it wasn't implied that Amy goes on a killing spree every time someone gets the flu. It was implied that she's lived a clean, respectable life up until this point when her son had a rare illness that required human brains. Maybe she was lying, but I think that if that was the intent of the writers, we would have gotten some clue that she had killed at some other time. So we're left with a being that is physically a monster, but who has a sense of morality, and by her own choice, sought a lifestyle that wouldn't harm other people. The only time she broke this resolve was when her family was in danger, and Dean of all people is the first to break his own rules when it comes to saving his family. Now that the illness has passed, is she still a danger to society? Probably not, so that makes Dean's decision to kill her more about passing judgment than protecting innocent lives.
The witches were only one example. There was Cas (a supernatural being who committed murder on a large scale). There was the leviathan who helped them in Out with the Old, who it is implied they let walk away. They've partnered with Meg, Crowley, and the Alpha vamp this season - rather than actively hunting them down. And Dean was piling up the bodies of people possessed by demons, without trying exorcism, in Let It Bleed, when Lisa and Ben were in danger.
Second issue is the lying, and being concerned for Sam's mental health isn't a good enough excuse for such a big lie.
Third issue is the lack of respect for Sam's point of view. Sam's been a hunter for a while too. He initially planned to kill Amy when he learned she had been killing again, but once he heard her side and weighed the effort she's been making to stay clean, he decided to give her another chance. You can disagree with Sam's decision, but it was a judgment call, and Sam and Dean have been partners in this for too long not to respect each other's judgment.
Fourth issue is the meaning behind all of the subtext in this episode. Sam has always thought of himself as part monster. In season 4, Dean drew the line that he wouldn't let Sam become a monster. He told Bobby he would rather kill Sam then let him become a monster. Sam tried to explain to Dean in this episode that you can be a monster but manage it and not be dangerous. He was reaching out to Dean and trying to get Dean to accept him for who he is. Dean's response was to stab Amy.
Fifth issue is the question of whether Sam and Dean really have a license to kill creatures who aren't an immediate threat. If they're killing everything that is technically a "monster," whether that creature is really evil or not, they're playing God (like Cas was) and they risk becoming more violent than the monsters they are hunting.
Sixth issue is that Dean did to that boy the same thing that scarred him so deeply when he was a boy. He killed the boy's mother. This last one isn't so much about what Dean did to Sam, but rather what Dean did to Dean. It's going to haunt him.
That said I agree that in many instances both brothers were written strangely off. Especially weird considering that amy/Emma, cas and Bobby were blatantly used/misused to create drama in a season otherwise lacking. Thanks for putting this together.
During the fourth season, Ruby's argument of use your abilities and save a life sounded a whole lot better to me than Dean's argument of use the knife and kill the demon. Throughout the fourth season, we see that Sam is at first only drinking from Ruby. She is his supplier who disappears for weeks. Sam eventually drinks from the demon in "The Rapture" and the demon nurse. We're told repeatedly that it's bad, but the other side of the argument says killing is the way to go. There is no good side. Yet, at the end of the fourth season, Dean's argument is proven right pretty much. Thus, making humans possessed by demons collateral damage. Therefore, under Dean's argument of kill the demon should apply to Sam killing the possessed nurse. This makes it okay to for Sam to have killed the nurse demon. In addition for it being okay, the demon blood has purposely never been defined. (In my opinion, the worst mistake the show has ever made story wise, because it leads to debates on whether or not one of the main characters is human! I still personally believe that Sam isn't a monster for the demon blood. Maybe he isn't completely human, who knows? To me, he'll always be one of the psychic kids which are human. I would love to have the show bring it full circle and somehow bring the other generations back into the show before it ends. But it's only on my wish list.)
So, this logic gets Sam and Dean off the hook for killing demons. However, demon body count has gotten really high. Dean tortures Alastair and his host, Sam kills these demons, Castiel kills all these demons, then Bobby kills this demon, and so on. It's gotten to the point that in the episode of "Let it Bleed," Dean has a pile of dead demon/human carcasses on the floor at Bobby's while he is looking for Ben and Lisa and not even one eye is batted by anyone! We're suppose to completely dismiss all the demon-human deaths.
Then the seventh season begins and Castiel is killing humans by the hundreds. He's killing angels by the hundreds. And the only creature upset about it is Hester who is killed relatively quickly. Castiel is pretty much completely forgiven by taking on Sam's Hell. (Don't get me wrong, I like Castiel. But his "instant forgiveness" in this black and white attitude is ridiculous to me!) Castiel's actions are dismissed. But Bobby asks to be burned before he hurts anyone else. I don't get it. It's been declared on this show that humans killed while possessed is the right course of action (unless you know the human or you need to torture the demon). It's been shown that if you have good intentions and you are trying to save the world, you don't have to answer for killing humans like motivational speakers. However, if you are a monster and it's the first time in over a decade that you have killed, you have to be put down hard and cold.
Dean rather go behind Sam's back to kill Amy, but in the very next episode he's complaining that their "Black and White" case just because "grey." He had no trouble killing Amy over thugs being killed and leaving a child-motherles s, but this week he wants to leave the case because the monster is killing guilty criminal people. The very next week he lets the Starks go. Granted, they did try to kill them, but failed. But here's my problem, a monster who has found a way to survive without constantly killing people is killed in two seconds for trying to keep her son alive. But killing demon hosts by the bus load (-i.e. to get a mother and child back) is collateral damage? However, monsters can live when their either helpful to the Winchesters or too powerful. It's makes about as much sense as working with demons is bad unless it's okay for mutual assured destruction.
I can handle Sam killing Emma a lot better than Dean killing Amy, simply because Emma was going to kill Dean. Amy looked defenseless which is a total set up for stupid drama. Then Dean lies about it and uses Sam's condition as an excuse. (Which completely sickens me, because Dean gave this wonderful speech about being stone one and the first thing he does is breaks it. He decides to lie to his brother who is having trouble with reality instead of correcting the behavior immediately especially since he thought it was wrong. At the time, I thought the writers were going to twist it around and use Dean lying to Sam as a way to prove to Sam that this wasn't reality, because the "real" Dean Winchester wouldn't have done that. But now, it just upsets me that Dean would play the mental card. I'm so glad those writers aren't coming back, because Dean looked like a bully to me in "The Mentalist.") In a lot of ways, it was created lame drama when they already had plenty!! I'm not interested in Dean becoming the next black and white hunter because it seems like it is only used when it's convenient for Dean to follow that logic.
I can't keep up with it anymore. And to top it off, Dean's trust issues are becoming a huge problem with me. Does he trusts Sam or not? He seems to completely trust Castiel again or at least he rather have Castiel on his team than not. But I have no clue how he feels about Sam this season. I feel like Dean is being written like a huge hypocrite at times because I can't follow the logic or keep up with who he trusts this week. A part me still wonders whether or not Dean wants to be around Sam anymore. He's gotten from the guy asking "What should I do?" over his baby brother's dead body to the "I'll trust you only when it's convenient for me as long as you listen to me and tell me I'm right" guy. Huh? I don't like. I hated it last season when I thought after that god-awful montage that Dean would rather be with Lisa and Ben than Sam.
Dean's characterizatio n has been mutilated this season. I really have doubts when it comes to Dean, because of all these inconsistencies and lack of development from his "depression." All this bouncing around for the character of Dean this season has caused me to question the most basic fundamental aspect of Dean Winchester: loyalty. In "Time After Time" he didn't even try to figure out how to get back to his time. Sure, he was working a case, but he didn't care whether or not he was going to be stuck there permanently. So, what does that mean for Purgatory? I feel like a traitor for ever saying this. But if Dean doesn't care about anything anymore or trust anyone anymore, then he can't loyal. Being loyal means you care about something. And he doesn't. So, what does that mean for the brothers?
I feel like screaming "come back, Dean! Come back!" I don't like this guy. He was fine just the way he was. I don't want to ever question his loyalty to his family again! But how can you be loyal and not care? And how can you be loyal when you can't even establish a clear logical philosophy and carry it out?
That's why I'm sincerely hoping that this was a setup for next season. And the more I think about the more I think it could be a great one. Dealing in depth with the moral ambiguity that comes with being a hunter and the effects on the boys. I'm ALL for that.
And if it links back to how Dean actually sees Sam that could be cool. Deep down does he see Sam as monster, but loves him too much to care or to even deal with it? If Amy wasn't just the set up for "lame drama" but a buildup to a more complex storyline I'm on board. Especially if it means Dean can move past all his trust issues and fully except Sam. Cause I've gotta agree with you Katie the Dean of this season doesn't seem as steadfast and loyal or as caring. I miss THAT Dean.
Sam the Doormat bores the crap out of me. And is very out of character. I know he had mental issues but come on!
Season four irked me, until this season it was my least favorite, but now...
But I loved the story of how doing something wrong to saved people could be seductive-ratio nalize. Especially to ever logical Sam who said he wanted to make something good out to of the curse he'd been given. And then he ended up getting caught him the power of it. Sam had felt so powerless when trying to save Dean the year before, the idea that he could be swayed by the idea of not being powerless when it came to saving Dean or the world. THAT seems totally in line with Sam character then and he ended up making a huge mistake because of it.
THAT was a fantastic storyline. It was earned by all the seasons leading up to it and everything they'd been through. And if they are leading up to something as good as that for Dean for season 8-then I'll be totally happy.
(although as a fangirl, it MUST end up with them reconciling completely). Right now I feel with had all the disconnection with none of the payoff.
That there was going to be understanding no alot just saw Sam lying , sneaking , demon blood drinking , telling Dean boohoo , choosing Ruby over Dean , trying to strangle Dean , pride. selfishness and being wrong
I dont pretend I hate that season somewhere in there maybe there was some decent idea for Sam but the execution did Sam so much damage it got lost imo .I think season 4 is a marmite season you either love it or hate it .
The boo hoo thing WAS mean, even being under the siren's spell that was hurtful after Dean had trusted him and confessed what he did. BUT he WAS under the siren spell. And Dean has said MUCH worse, being under no spell. I don't think Dean was portrayed as some kind of saint that season or season 5. He was a bit of an ass at times who broke the first seal by torturing. IMO people have rewritten the season in their heads to make Sam the total bad guy (oddly there are both Sam and Dean girls it the mix).
Sam drank demon blood and made one catastrophic mistake, but he was NEVER evil. If the writers had truly wanted to make Sam evil or completely unsympathetic it would have been all too easy. He would have been totally out for power. He could have known that Lucifer would be set free when he killed Lilith and been so far gone he did it anyway. As it was, he spoke of regret, worried if he was doing the right thing, he tearfully listened to Dean's faux voicemail message and then went off to sacrifice himself while killing Lilith to save the world. He didn't come off as a monster to me.
Sam has yet to live down Season 4 actions. On another forum, I was debating w/people about - believe it or not - stuff Sam did in Season 4. I ended my part in the "debate" by saying if the things Sam did 4 years ago still bother you, then it's very likely, you'll never like Sam.
IMO, Dean has not suffered as much at the hands of the writers as Sam has. Now, I like and enjoy both brothers equally. I don't favor one over the other myself. I enjoyed Season 4, but believe Sam could have benefited from a "TMWWBK"-like episode in that season. It may have helped some understand him a bit more, esp. those who have no tolerance for him. I like Sam so while his actions disturbed and greatly disappointed me in Season 4, I never started hating him like others did. I'm sure that was not Kripke's intention, but that's definitely what happened.
They had Dean in the mytharc and a brand new shiny relationship with Dean and Castiel to care about more that is what they were interested in .
This season again it was a lack of genuine brother relationship that hurt the season and small things like Dean dragging that coat around from car to car didnt help and a finale IMO that gave more to the Dean / Castiel relationship than Dean's with Sam.
I agree so very much.
Bring some of that back to the show please.
The Amy mess, was a mess. I always thought Dean jumped the gun by killing her, but up until The Mentalists, I could see the Amy thing being used as a great way to explore the relationship between the boys. I'll discuss that part more when the Sam article is published, because that is where my problems lie.
DYL was a perfect opportunity for Dean to face his guilt and mo ve on, admit what he had done to Sam and start to grow, instead nothing.
Dean's kill all monsters became completely hypocritical in Shut Up Dr. Phil. He and Sam couldn't drive to the next town, pick up fresh chicken feet, keep them on ice and try again? Okay, the show has been fairly consistent that if the witch is female (the unwitting housewives in MM or Mrs Stark in SUDP) then the boys go in guns blazing. If the witch is male (Patrick in The Curious Case of Dean Winchester or Mr. Stark in SUDP) then the boys just let them go on their merry way. This does not make either of them look good, but with Dean in his "kill them all and let God decide" mode, his completely giving up on getting the Starks is completely not understandable. Then again he can't kill Emma and doesn't seem to be bothered that Castiel is still a supernatural being that killed thousands. It just doesn't jibe.
The worst assassination of Dean's character is in Born Again Identity. Yes, he worked hard to find a cure for Sam, but he does it at Rufus's cabin. He doesn't even bring the contact book to the waiting room so that he can be with Sam during visiting hours. Heck, it's not like they didn't have a waiting room set that could have been reused. They had the one from Death's Door. Instead, Dean leave Sam to potentially die alone while Dean is who knows how many miles away. Yes, he would have left to get the healer, but for the most part, I got no sense of urgency from Dean when Sam was dying.
Plucky Pennywhistle, while great fun, still defames Dean's character. He knows Sam is hallucinating. He knows Sam is terrified of clowns, yet he seems to enjoy watching an already psychotic, hallucinating Sam being in pain by facing his greatest fear. The episode was cute and funny, but Dean's actions were fairly cruel. In Everybody Loves a Clown, he was a brother being amused by his psychologically healthy brother acting all scared of clowns. Doing so when Sam is broken and fragile just seems wrong.
After episode 2, the entire season was bereft of any brotherly bond or insight into either Sam or Dean. I really hope the show can pull out of this and bring back the love between the brothers AND explore their characters. I really hope that the writers are finally willing to fix Dean. Let him talk about his PTSD from Hell. Let him rid himself of his useless, paralyzing guilt. Let him grow.
I agree on pretty much everything you've written. Esp. the hypocricy about killing Amy and then letting the Starks go. But I wouldn't necessary make it a male witch-he witch thing... I actually liked that they let Patrick go. He wasn't killing people per se, he was playing (no cheating was ever implied) for years. It was the peoples choices, he even let that one old guy go before Sam came to play. I'd say that he's little like a crossroads demon-ish type of guy except he isn't sentencing people to hell. He plays for their years, the people know the stakes. So he's not just killing people for shits and giggles. Like the Starks did which just pissed me off cause they were let go. I agree that they should have tried again. And agree that they should kill Meg and Crowley and the Alpha for instance, (even Cas ventures kinda in this area) because they are bad and have killed many people. End of story.
And all this really has nothing to do with season seven, but it has bugged for a while and Dr. Phil just reminded me of how much it bugged me.
I think we just gotta agree on certain things. I again don't see Patrick as stealing lives, allthough who knows how much more hunnier his sales speeches were, focusing more on the "You'll get to live your wonder years and push back old age" or being brutally honest. We did see the one guy in the beginning who had won (and the old guy who would have lost but Pat let him go) so I'd say he was an honest player, just a really good one since having done that for centuries. Not a good guy but not killing people for the sake of killing. BUT he did have an agenda. Would I have shed a tear had he died? Absolutely not. Witches are evil, that's been their canon. I would've been a bit miffed though since he was quite smoking hot with that lovely accent and lush hair :)
These issues of who gets to live and die according to the Winchesters are an interesting aspect to ponder since they wary so much from story to story. I guess your own personal opinions regarding certain characters also effect (like me with Patrick), if they are liked, like Cas generally is, then he will get away with a lot of shady things because we're so eager to find a reason for it. To find the 'why'. I usually can see the 'why' without much of a struggle. As a Sam fan, I think you've got to have that ability since his headspace is so seldom out in the front for us to see. This season even Sam has had me scratching my head at times, but atleast he had something to deal with, to obscure the view. Make me think of the 'whys' a bit harder. Where as Dean I just saw as depressed and apathetic, which is nothing new. Or interesting after all this time. But honestly, they were both all over the place from time to time this season.
And even when I'm being annoyed at Show, I can't help but be amazed that it still, after all these years, makes me think of these issues and delve into the greys. I still want to know the 'whys' :)
Sorry for the longness, something has ignited my commenting hunger :)
This reminds me of how you used to whine on about how meen Dean left Sam to die alone in the panic room in 4.21 simply because he was shown having a conversation upstairs with Bobby. It was inane then, and is inane now.
So, no I'm not ashamed of my opinions and I stand behind them. Also, since I didn't start posting here until after season five, you are stalking me on the Internet, which...well okay then.
Percysowner and Clare, let's keep things civil, please. You're walking the line here, so please be respectful of each other. You don't have to agree, and you can debate, but attacking each other is off limits.
Though I do agree about Plucky and the weird disconnect between Dean and Sam.
It reminded me of Yellow Fever - same writers, right? Dean was dying of that ghost disease, and had less than 24 hours to live, and Sam wandered around like a bored, annoyed hipster with better things to do. I had the sense that he would be indifferent if Dean died.
I hope Carver takes the writers to task and critiques each script, especially Dabb and Loflin, because they are always guilty of writing at least one of the guys OOC in every script.
You see, I have the same experience. So, I can say that I get Dean this time. I have a tendency if I want something so badly I will do anything to get it. But when I get my hands on the item I tend to dilly dallying about it. It's the chasing and hunting proses that excites me. The research/though t process that is interesting. The result, not so much. I often thinking that I already get it so there's no urgency anymore.
Dean loves to entertain a thought that maybe Bobby is a ghost. It's exciting, scary, terrible, sad and all in one place to occupy his mind. And he also misses him. BUT when it turns out to be true that Bobby is a ghost he retract his steps and thinking.."Wow, Bobby IS a ghost. It's actually not interesting at all. It's terrible! What was I thinking of wanting him back before? Of entertaining this very fact before?"
Kinda like cold feet before you get married? You are so exciting about the preparation process but getting stuck on the Big day and dreading even going to the altar?
Think about it, please. It happens to the best of us. I really really want to meet this big star and to shake his hand but when I do stand in front of him I go mute and my feet turns to jello. It's the same thing just the other way around instead of a positive vibe meeting a star it's a negative vibe meeting a ghost.
I love these indepth looks on the boys through out the years. You've always been able to look at these characters and found something new in them, a progress or a journey in their trials throughout the seasons. And I totally agree that this season there was none of that. Nothing new was revealed regarding Dean. I was so bored for most of the season, because Dean was just the same old, same old. Give the guy a story for heavens sake, that does not consist on him being depressed and drinking. That boat has sailed many seasons ago.
I agree that the brotherhood is (and has been) missing. For a while now actually.They were on a such a good track in season 5. Dean had every reason to feel angry and betrayed and depressed but he was working his way out of it with Sams help and trustbuilding. And in the end, he did the biggest sacrifice imaginable, he let Sam go because that was what Sam wanted. If that did not prove to everyone how much he loved Sam, then I don't know what. That's the last of the Dean I know, though.
In season 6 there was too much time spent on SoullessSam -arc which was interesting and entertaining but went on for far too long. That demolished all the work between the brothers from seasons prior. So, the brotherhood was on the fritz for most of season 6 and then after Sam got resouled, nothing much happened because they were afraid of the wall collapsing. Then it did. By Cas. While he was still an angel (no godlike powers yet). Which was a choice I didn't and don't get. Cruelest choice imaginable, to me. So I can't forgive that just because he took on Sams crazy later. He also killed a buttload of people (and angels) on top of breaking his brothers head and still Dean carries his coat around wherever he goes??!! This season did many things that seemed just off. Again, in my opinion. Just because I think it's wrong, doesn't mean they were wrong. It just felt very OOC to me. And I can't help to think that it could've been fixed if a bit more thought had been put in to it. Now I'm not even sure that Dean even likes Sam anymore, all the urgency and care seem to be missing. Even a powerfull eppie like The Bourne Again Identity which had so much potential to be the BigBrotherDean episode, and I just didn't feel it. Like he was going through the motions. He seemed to show Cas more feeling than Sam. I don't know this Dean. He's just... off.
I gotta disagree on The Mentalist though. That episode is just the worst for me. I see nothing good in that. All I see is that Sam had no right be upset that Dean went behind his back and killed a monster that was saving her sons life. In front of said son. All that talk about stone nro 1 and then he just took all that trust and threw it out the window. I don't get this Dean. He was a major bitch himself and Sammy, in the end, ended up apologising which I hated even more. That's not the Sam I know. But atleast some of his doormat-ness can be explained that he did have mental issues at the time and was propable using Dean as his moral compass or something. But still. No. Ugh. Worst episode ever. I think what Katie said above, sums up my feelings quite well about the hupocricy of it all.
About GhostBobby. I really loved Deaths Door, it's the best eppie of the season but purely as a stand-alone for me. But if combined with the later GhostBobby storyline, it dimishes that glorious eppie a hell of a lot. GhostBobby was pointless to me. I didn't get it. I gotta agree a little with kaj on Deans GhostBobby -reactions. The idea, that a loved one is with you even after death is always a little romantic and sweet. But I think the bottom line is, Dean knows better. He's been there. He was willing to be back in season 2 but when Tessa told him what he'd become, I was certain that in the end, he was willing to go with her than be trapped and turned in to a vengeful spirit. I agree that we've met nice ghosts too but who can guarantee that that happens to you?! Are you really ready to risk it, 'knowing' that there are so many angry spirits out there? Knowing you might hurt people? And the fact that Bobby stuck around just baffles me in many ways. He 'should' know better. But I guess it's just one of these choices that he's made that makes absolutely no sense to me (like him not telling Dean that Sam was alive). I can see why he'd do it but I just don't really 'see' why. But Deans point I did get. They just handled it terribly, I agree with you there.
One thing on Deaths' Door though. I hate how they've thrown John in to the gutter and pumped up Bobby as the boys' father. He wasn't. He didn't raise the boys, not in my opinion. I liked when he was just UncleBobby who gave them room and board and helped them just be boys once in a while, but John raised them. Sure, he didn't always do a bang up job but he made them who they are today. Bobby helped sure, but I don't believe he can take the responsibility for raising them. They were grown men after all when they met again in season 1. Then he took on a more prominent role. After John had died. In Deaths' Door, I wish he'd said things like "I raised those boys too." or "They were my boys too.". Something that acknowledged that John was their father, warts and all. And Bobby respected that. But it didn't come out like that.
I'd like to end on a happy note though, and say that the cliffie this season left me with much more hope than the last seasons' did. I think season 8 could be quite different yet come back to the roots. Focus on the brothers, give them purpose. Actually give us a season 1 feel, instead of talking about it. Bring back the badass and clever hunters who enjoy life every once in a while and embrace their calling. Oh and Dean gets to beat up Roy and Walt
There have been many comments on here, and on articles throughout the season, in relation to people wanting to see a return of the 'old' Dean and that how he was written in season 7 was very out of character. (I might have been reading it wrong; Iâ€™m insane and blind from thinking and reading at this stage.)
I'm sorry for this but which 'old' Dean are people talking about? Is it a specific season Dean or is it a certain attitude, certain ethos Dean? I mean, what â€˜Deanâ€™ do people actually want to see back?
Iâ€™ve been debating Dean in my head for hours now and while thatâ€™s always pleasant Iâ€™ve come to a stage where Iâ€™m worried that the Dean I want to see, or the Dean I imagine, is a Dean that we might not have actually seen before, that Iâ€™m merely picking and choosing the â€˜bestâ€™ bits of Dean and judging the characterisatio n of season 7 Dean against that. (Okay, that was tongue twisterish!) Because the thing is, when I think of season 7 Dean without â€˜myâ€™ Dean in mind, I donâ€™t find his characterisatio n to be too off at all.
So help a girl out and just tell me what the Dean you want to see back is like. Cheers.
I do want to see him move forward not back, well not completely. In season two, he seems to trust Sam implicitly despite being completely freaked out by the powers stuff. Such as with Born Under a Bad Sign, he didn't figure out immediately Sam was possessed by he knew that Sam couldn't have done the things he did.I'm not sure he would make the same call now.
In fact, I'm not sure of anything with this new version of Dean. There was a lack of urgency when dealing with Sam this season for the most part. Even compare how he was with Bobby in Death's Door to how he was with Sam in Born Again Identity. About Bobby he was frantic, pissed and in complete denial. About Sam, he just wasn't as intense IMO. He did everything he could to help definitely, but I almost got the impression he was going through the motions. I know he was supposed to be fighting apathy or whatever, but this was SAM. Even when Dean was at his angriest with Sam in season 5, he looked devastated when he got shot and impaled.
I would like that to be for a reason and I if somewhere down deep he does have issues with Sam than I want him to deal with them and get over it. Or if it's just inconsistent writing than I want them to fix it.
Dean's attitude and whole presence lacked passion, urgency, or just plain interest in Sam's condition. Sam was on the verge of death, but you couldn't tell from the way Dean behaved. The same passion and care I felt from Dean toward Sam in MTNB, HCW, M3: TR, or any Season 1 or 2 episode where Sam was injured/hurt was not present in this very important episode. As you said, it's like Dean was just going through the motions but didn't really care what happened in the end.
I didn't feel any urgency from Sam either, but I'll save that for the Sam article. TBAI was just bad, IMO. I've only seen it once, but I don't recally it being anything to rave about except for the beginning sequence. I liked that part of it. There weren't even any good brotherly moments in it. Remember Sam speaking to a comatose Dean in IMTOD or Dean speaking to Sam's dead body or Sam sitting by Dean's bedside, demanding that Castiel "fix" Dean. Those wre great brotherly moments, and I don't think we got any in TBAI.
Maybe this is all a setup for season 8. That's become my new mantra.
This is not really the place for it, but much of Sam's story was a massive disappointment to me, including TBAI. I don't know. The whole thing seemed off to me. If the build up had been better, I might have enjoyed the episode more. Everything was rushed. We spent little time during the season on how Sam was coping w/the hallucinations, and then went straight to him suffering a massive mental break. I honestly can't recall if there was another episode focused on Sam's hallucinations btw RM and TBAI. All I know is I felt the story was short-changed, and that Sam went from okay to stone cold crazy in 20 seconds. There was no build up. As a stand alone, maybe it was an okay episode, but not the conclusion to a 1.5, 2-year arc.
It was all very anti-climatic and low-key, IMO.
I don't know about TBAI. Like I said I really enjoyed it when it aired and still loved several of the scenes, but agree that if that is the conclusion of Sam's hell storyline it does feel anti-climatic. I feel like in a holding pattern for the last part of the season. It just doesn't FEEL complete to me. Now I had the opposite impression on season 5. I totally and completely LOVE that season. I have re-watched those episode so many times, way more than season 1 (which is probably MY least favorite season). I loved the drama and even the angst, because for me it felt earned.
Now I would agree that the reconciliation scene in PoNR felt too short after nearly 2 years of distrust and anger. That's way to some extent I would almost be glad to see some of Dean's trust issues brought to the surface again in season 8 so that they could resolve more completely.
I know he can never be the devil-may-care from season 1 but I'd like him to have some spirit back, some dance in his step once in a while. To enjoy life. To feel like he does something important and that he matters. This gloom and doom Dean just bores me because he's been that way for so long. Why is he hunting? He's so apathetic, I can't see him caring about anyone or anything. Even Sam. And that's just bleak. I just feel like enough is enough.
Most of me wants to say I want to see Dean show that he cares about Sam again, but I'm honestly not certain he does. Dean didn't begin forgive or trust Sam until PONR when Sam showed complete trust in Dean. He made his final peace with Sam after Sam decided to jump into the cage. The thing is, it's a really heartless move to not at least SAY you forgive someone who is dying. There's an old saying that if everybody was told that it was 5 minutes until the world ends, the phones would be clogged with people reaching out to say "I love you" and "I forgive you" for those last minutes. It's easy to forgive when you know you aren't going to have to deal with someone again AND when you know they are sacrificing themselves for the greater good and to correct their mistakes.
I know Dean was grateful to see Sam alive again, but I honestly believe that dealing with Soulless Sam may have destroyed all the good will that Sam had managed to regain in season 5. Then Sam came back with a wall in his head and Dean couldn't allow himself to upset that balance, so I think the rift came back albeit in a different form. Then Castiel destroyed Sam's wall and "died". I can make the argument that with Cas gone, Dean couldn't deal with his anger about Cas directly, so he may have developed a resentment toward the one thing that was a constant reminder of Cas's betrayal, Sam. It isn't a logical or reasonable reaction, but people project their anger at the wrong target at times, so I could understand it.
So as much as I want Dean to love and trust Sam again, I could live with Dean admitting he just doesn't anymore IF the writers actually spent some time dealing with that. For me, this season failed miserably in showing a relationship between Sam and Dean. They had Dean not rejecting Sam this season, but, outside of episode 2, not acting like he cared one way or the other about Sam's welfare. There is material to be mined here, but I don't know if they will dig for the potential gold in this or if they will just keep Dean acting like a hunters who works with a partner because it makes the hunts safer, not because he cares what happens to Sam.
Before anyone says anything, Sam too seemed less invested in the relationship, but for more than half the year Sam was having a psychotic break, and he still indicated that he was worried about Dean's drinking and how Dean would react to Bobby's death, plus I'll talk about Sam in the Sam article.
I also wouldn't mind if they mind this for a story it has a lot of potential but I DO want the end result to be that they wind up closer with trust of both sides.
I know many hated Season 6, but I felt and believed Dean cared about his brother's soul and getting his brother back Dean made his deal w/Death and didn't hesitate in choosing Sam over Adam. I enjoyed the SS arc myself, but it had to end and that reunion hug was the best. I loved Dean's protectiveness over Sam and his wall when it came to Bobby, Samuel, or Castiel. To me, the brothers were on track and working together. Sam became more mute in the 2nd half of Season 6, but they seemed intuned with eac other and appeared to genuinely like working together. I felt the urgency from Dean when Cas collapsed Sam's wall. Dean only left Sam b/c they had to stop Cas/Crowley. I had ZERO issues w/the brotherly bond during Season 6, and I don't recall ver many complaints about it.
Not nearly as many complaints about this season where the brothers have been written more like co-workers than brothers who would, and have died for each other. To me, their relationship is the heart of the show. For whatever reason, Sera removed the heart from the show, which is why many consider this the worst season of Supernatural ever written.
If someone asked me to name some brotherly moments, I could come up w/three: (1) warehouse scene in HCW; (2) Sam's plea to Dean at the end of that episode w/the daughter; and (3) the entire clown episode. That episode was a joy to watch b/c it had a Season 1 feel.
So, I think your questions re: Dean have more to do w/the bad writing this year than anything real or substantive w/Dean like him not trusting Sam, etc.
I thought they had good brotherly banter this season (although I supposed it could be seen as coworker banter too). And again if Sam had not had his wall torn down and been on the edge of death and Bobby had not died, I might of been good with the moments we got. But the way it happened not only does it feel like missed opportunities but also feels like necessary storyline scenes weren't written.
I really enjoyed SS and his interactions w/Dean. I even feel SS and Dean had more brotherly moments than Sam and Dean this year. It's very strange. I felt the boys were very isolated from each other this year. Their individual stories were kept isolated and separate. I'm not sure why they did that. The show works best, IMO, when the boys are interested in each other's lives. That didn't happen so much this year.
As far as I'm concerned, Sam had no story. If he had issues w/his hallucinations, he mostly kept them to himself so much so that we, the audience, weren't even privy to the extent of his issues/problems . Dean rarely inquired about Sam's welfare or how he was coping, but then Sam showed no outward signs of having issues so maybe Dean assumed he was okay. Who knows? Dean's depression was the focus of a large part of the season but we rarely saw Dean discussing his feelings w/Sam or even Bobby. I can only recall one instance of Sam talking to Dean about his depressed attitude, and that was at the tail end of the arc.
In Season 6, even w/Sam missing, I felt the connection btw the brothers. While I loved SS, I couldn't wait until REAL Sam returned. To me, they fell right in step in LAV. It was like Sam had never gone away. I didn't feel the disconnection I had in Seasons 4 and 5. They didn't feel like co-workers like they did this season. They conversed and had many brotherly moments. I feel Season 5 was low on brotherly moments as well, which is why - before this season - it ranked last on my list. However, this season was the worst on everything, esp. the brothers' relationship. They were practically strangers to me.
If the arc had been for the entire year as planned, we could have seen Dean teaching SS to behave morally and have SS actually start using What Would Dean Do to function. There could have been bonding of a sort between Dean and SS and the return of Sam's soul would have been somewhat tragic because it would have meant the "death" of a character that we knew and Dean had grown to feel responsible for. Bringing Sam's damaged, tortured soul back would have been right and necessary, but we would have had more sympathy for SS's argument that they were killing HIM only to bring back a drooling, broken soul who would probably die and take SS with him.
For the record, I'm the odd duck that liked season six. It had too much going on to be coherent, what with Soullessness and Lisa &Ben, and Campbells and Cas being the Big Bad, but if the writers had ditched a couple of those storylines (the Campbells at least and maybe Lisa and Ben). I think we could have had a good season that really came together. At least in season six I felt the caring between Sam and Dean. Heck even SS decided that he wanted to stay hunting with Dean and also decided that if Dean thought getting his soul back was a good idea, then he would go for it. SS only balked after angels and demons alike told him that getting his soul back would kill him, or leave him insane.
Also once I knew Sam was still in the cage being tortured. I wanted him out like NOW. For me it was hanging over the episodes. So for that to go on a full season in addition to being a full season without SAMMY would be too much for me. That is definitely one time where love of character won over love of story.
I can't believe that woman chucked Lucky out. If I could talk to my dogs, I'd be the one in heaven.
On topic. I liked Soulless Sam too. The emptiness had a true resonance and I thought his panic at the end was so well done. Like percysowner, I thought Season 6 was OK on balance. Had some really strong episodes (Weekend at Bobbys, the fairy episode, the Death episode...) alongside some duds, and there were big themes (not the Campbells) that just needed playing out stronger.
Quote:This would have made a good season great. JP has fantastic comic timing, which was working in a lot of those situations, in the fairy episode in particular. I've been grumbling elsewhere about the lack of depth in Sam's characterisatio n but this would have been a really good dynamic to explore. SS clearly felt the lack of something and was trying to make other mental facets take up the slack. To be fair the scene where Death brings the soul was terrific in any case.
The guy gets his jollies watching while she undresses and showers and then cuddles up with her in bed and she doesn't know he is human. He kills a landlord for wanting (heaven forbid) to have the rent paid. Newsflash, you live in a apartment you pay rent. He kills the boyfriends brother for being abusive to the woman AFTER the boyfriend kicked his brother out and put a stop to it. He kills the boyfriend because the boyfriend is abusive. Abuse is wrong and terrible, but it doesn't have a death sentence attached unless the abuser actually kills someone. Frankly, I really thought half of Lucky's "protection" of the woman (who made so little impression that I can't remember her name) would be called separating her from any support system and making her reliant on him if done by a human being to his girlfriend. Except LUCKY WAS HUMAN.
ADGTH is my A #1 example of hypocrisy by Dean about supernatural. Yes, he didn't want the SS to kill the woman while taking out the pack. But Dean made no attempt, whatsoever to try and find Lucky, who was programmed to turn his next family into shifters. He either let Lucky go because Lucky was a cute doggy woggy, or because SS believed Lucky needed to be killed and we the audience had to know that SS could (like regular Sam) NEVER, EVER be right about what monsters to take out. Also, we were supposed to view this murder as being like Dean and only wanting a family of his own. The contrast between Lucky and Amy (yes, I CAN bring this back to season seven, who knew?) sickens me. Lucky kills people that are no real threat to his "family" and whose death doesn't save the lives of his "family" and he gets The Littlest Hobo" edit. Amy finds a way to live without killing anyone, kills about the same number of people that Lucky did to save her son's life and she gets the Sam finally agrees she needs to die edit. HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE HATE! (Maybe some day I'll tell you all how I really feel about ADGTH.
I would watch Route 666 and Bugs 100 times before I would ever touch ADGTH.
What on earth is a kill shelter btw?? That's one hell of a contradiction.
I didn't get the impression Lucky got his jollies watching her undress. Dog's penises are typically somewhere between often and usually on display, but Lucky remained demure. I believe he preferred a furry mate.
He seemed like a genuine hybrid between dog sensibility and human understanding. Particularly being a GSD, a breed which has a strong protector instinct based on its original sheepdog function. (It would have been interesting if some of the whatever they weres had turned out to be chihuahuas, or something demanding and shrill.)
But (I'm mining my borrowed insights from Cesar Millan here) dogs respond emotionally. The family, more particularly, the woman and her kid (can't remember their blummin' names either) are fearful of the rent demands/abuse and the dog responds without regard to the actual cause by going into protect mode. It makes sense from a dog point of view.
I forgot that he was a killer though, to be honest, due to The Littlest Hobo exit. I just thought 'Poor sod'. Helped by the fact that I liked the actor too. Someone run after Lucky and bring him over here. I've got plenty of people he can 'help' with and the whole dog/translate thing would be a treat.
It's kind of on the zero / neutral scale for me in terms of Dean's moral/pragmatic response to the creatures they confront. Can't remember it very well but I seem to remember that this episode had the first real conversation between the brothers about Sam's new soulless state, at a picnic table in the park??
You and I are just looking at it from different viewpoints. To me, Lucky was a person who was able to change shape into a dog, but he retained his human nature. You disagree. I don't think the show was totally clear on which was right, so we see it differently. To me the man that turned into Lucky was no more a dog than the Shifter that took on Dean's form was Dean. You see him as a dog protecting his family. I see him as a serial killer the show decided to let walk free, in which case the Littlest Hobo treatment is as safe as you can get. Lucky looked purebred and was housebroken and did tricks. He probably would have been adopted and would still have been the ticking time bomb ready to turn his entire family into shifters when the Alpha Shifter gave the command. Maybe he won't bond with another family and kill anyone who looks at them the wrong way or kill the husband so he can cuddle up to the grieving widow.
I REALLY HATED that episode. Mileage varies and others liked it. It's just a different way of seeing it.
I liked Season 6 from the very start. I immediately knew something was off w/Sam and just couldn't wait to find out what was wrong w/him. I liked ALL the Campbells. I didn't care for Lisa/Ben, but they weren't shown enough to be truly annoying. I Were there too many plots? Sure, but as you said, if Sera & Co. had dropped the boring Lisa/Ben angle and focused more on developing the Campbells and SS, that would have been great!
In all, I found Season 6 to be very enjoyable. It was much more enjoyable than Season 5, and it was miles AHEAD of the awful Season 7.
I never had a problem w/the SS arc, but I agree that your thoughts on carrying it out over the year would have been good! I would liked to see it play out that way.
I also liked ADGTH. I know I'm in the minority on that as well. I thought that woman was a witch for being so mean to Lucky, but I liked the episode. Admittedly, I have a dog, so seeing Lucky, the dog, just wander the streets really made me sad. I hear your point, Percy, about "Lucky," the man being a dirty perv but I can't get that picture of that lonely dog walking the street out of my mind!
In any event, I enjoyed the episode for fleshing out SS more. To me, it really highlighted how different SS was from "real" Sam. I love the conversation btw SS and Dean at the end where SS confesses to killing innocent people to get the job done. Dean is mortified, and SS is so nonchalant about the whole thing.
I actually liked SS. He was interesting. I thought Jared did a good job w/him.
I wont get into the Amy situation because I have given my view on that already .
I've really enjoyed season 7 actually, but as this article has highlighted, there's been very little in the way of great character deveoplment, and what I've been wondering is if it's maybe because the writers have let the stories drive the characters more, rather than the other way around.
Kripke used to talk about how he'd often wanted to pull the show and the characters in a particular direction, but the characters wouldn't really let him. I'm sure in this case there are plenty of stories we never got to see because they just didn't work for where Sam and Dean were at various moments in the story.
Now, if I look back at season 7, it just seems the writers had a whole bunch of stories to tell, and told them whether or not they worked emotionally in terms of the Winchesters . By doing that, inadvertantly or not, they've shifted the focus away from Sam and Dean as characters we can relate to and made them into whatever case they were in that particuar episode, and that doesn't work when we've had at least five years of great character exploration to get to know these guys. Just because they need someone who knows how to sky dive so they can hunt a giant flying harpie in free fall or something, doesn't mean I'm suddenly just going to believe Dean's been sky-diving for years when I've always been shown that he's afraid of flying.
Like Plucky's. I loved that episode and the hour of pure ridiculousness it provided, not to mention how happy I was to see the broters looking happy and actually laughing. But if you look at it in terms of where we were before and where we went after, it just didn't fit. It didn't really make sense that either of them would be in such good moods, especially since Dean in particular had spent most episodes depressed and apathetic. And I noticed that a few times.
In the end though, I can't help but hope they'll be able to come out better next season and I think it's very possible, I think they just need to focus on the brothers and let everything else fall into place, rather than having the brothers fall into line with everything else.
My main problem with this season is it seemed to be without purpose or direction. I don't think Sera or anyone actually sat down and thought about what they wanted to do with the characters or how they wanted the characters to grow and change from their current situation.
It seems like Dean was given the depression arc because they didn't know what else to do with him. It's not like they intended to resolve Dean's depression or the lack of interest he's had in hunting since John's death. Those angles were left unresolved. Dean was depressed simply for the sake of being of depressed. It served as a placeholder until Bobby's death so Dean could then become obsessed with revenge. Honestly, I wasn'teven sure why Dean was depressed this year. It's not like Sam's suffering from the hallucinations was so overwhelming and debilitating that Dean was depressed. Sam functioned perfectly well for the majority of the season. (More on my disappointment for Sam this year in his article.) Bobby hadn't died before Dean became so depressed. You could say Dean was sad because Cas died, but I don't think so. I don't know what drove Dean's depression this year apart from laziness and a lack of creativity from the writers.
What most upsets me is that Dean suddenly wasn't depressed anymore. It was just dropped. Hisdisillusionm ent with hunting also wasn't addressed. It was dropped along with the depression, thereby making HALF the season a complete waste of time. Dean's arc had no impact or affect on his life so it was a pointless venture. What did Dean learn this year? How did he grow? There are no answers to those questions.
Dean just existed. I was mentioning earlier that another reason the season was a bust was because the brothers barely interacted aside from the first two episodes and Plucky's. There were very few brotherly moments, which is vital to the show, IMO.
This season was awful. I don't think Dean was damaged because of the crappy writing but hopefully JC will put more thought into the show and the stories for the brothers be them emotional or more tied to the mytharc. Better writing is a must!
While I do have issues with Dean's characterisatio n this season, I think that what I found most frustrating about Dean's storyline in season 7 is that a lot of issues were exposed but they weren't really resolved. I feel like we got the beginning and the middle of the story, but where is the ending?
Hello Cruel World exposes Dean's suicidal tendencies with his voice mail message to Bobby, threatening to strap Sam into the car and drive them both off the pier. Then the whole issue just sort of disappears. Bobby never mentions the voice message. Dean never mentions suicide again although it could be said that he courts suicide by monster in episodes like Time After Time and Slice Girls it could just as well be said that he just doesn't care if he dies. He tells Sam that he'll try not to get himself killed in Slice Girls but he's not really convincing. So when did Dean get over being suicidal and how? Or is he still suicidal?
In The Girl Next Door, Dean's trust issues were raised. Dean doesn't trust Sam's judgement anymore so he lies and goes behind Sam's back. But the issue is not resolved in this episode, Dean continues to lie to Sam until the leviathan doppelganger reveals the truth to Sam. When the truth does come out Dean says he's having trouble trusting anyone since Cas went dark side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that we ever saw the "Ah ha" moment when Dean does start to trust again. By the end of the season does Dean really trust Sam's judgement? Can we tell? If he does, how did he get there?
In Defending Your Life, Dean's guilt issues are raised. Dean feels guilty about pretty much everything whether it's his fault or not (and every man and his dog who ever watched a single episode of Supernatural already knew this). But was anything actually resolved? Dean still feels guilty at the end of the episode because he's still lying to Sam from last episode. Does he feel any less guilty about Jo? Does he feel any less guilty about dragging Sam back into "The Life"? Does he feel any less guilty about torturing souls in Hell? Does he feel any less guilty about everything else that wasn't really his fault? How do we know? Does it show in the rest of the season that he fells less guilty?
In Shut Up Dr Phil, Dean's growing problems with alcohol are exposed. He's always been a drinker but in this episode he's shown drinking the hard stuff first thing in the morning, emphasis is placed on the fact that he is going into a bottle shop, and Sam is shown to be reacting to how much Dean is drinking. But again the issue is not really resolved. Granted, once the truth about Amy comes out and Dean no longer has to lie to Sam the drinking seems to ease off a little however Sam asks in Party On Garth whether Dean is even capable of getting drunk anymore, so it's pretty obvious that he still drinks fairly heavily.
The Mentalists builds on the trust issue brought up in The Girl Next Door but still doesn't resolve it. Yes, Dean admits that he's having trouble trusting anyone but does he start to trust again after this?
Time For A Wedding exposes the fact that Dean really doesn't want to look to closely at his own problems. At the end of the episode, Sam tells Dean that while he will always need Dean, he's doing ok and Dean can focus on himself for once and the look on Dean's face shows that he REALLY doesn't want or know how to do that. So, does Dean actually start to face his issues after this? Does he face his fear that his time in Hell turned him into a monster? Does he face the loss of his dream of a home and family? Does he resolve either of these issues? When? How? And how do we know? Does it show in the rest of the season?
How to Win Friends and Influence Monsters raises Dean's apathy and depression for examination. They've steered the world away from the edge of the cliff twice already and now it's heading for the cliff again and Dean can't see the point of stopping it this time since it obviously wants to end. Bobby tells him he needs to find a reason to keep hunting in this episode, Frank tells him to either quit or decide to be fine 'til the end of the week and do the same again next week in Adventures in Babysitting, and Elliot Ness in Time After Time tells him that everyone loses everything and at least as a hunter he's making a difference. Do any of these talks actually achieve anything? Dean seems to be just going through the motions for the rest of the season. He goes after Dick Roman as revenge after Bobby is killed but it seems a bit half hearted to me, as if he's only doing it because it's expected. Even when Sam is dying from his psychosis, there's a distinct lack of urgency from Dean. I don't know whether it was intentional or if this episode is just a victim of bad writing, poor editing or too much happening in too little time, but as Dean is still apathetic 'til the end of the season I'm assuming it was intentional. Like Alice said "I get it, Deanâ€™s burned out by this point. Still, it isnâ€™t very fun or interesting to watch."
I could go on but this post is way to long already! Suffice to say that I really hope next season we get some resolution.
And yes, the boys did let the Starks go. That wasn't right and Dr. Phil is my least favorite episode of the season. They should have both come back to kill the Starks. Maybe the writers just got bored.
Despite Dean's denials that he wasn't referring to Sam as a "freak" (and I don't believe he was), Sam still went into that long speech about how he knows he's a freak and how he's accepted it. Sam went on to say something like even though Amy is a freak/monster, she's managing it and not killing on a regular basis.
Sam identified w/Amy on a personal level. Sam sees himself as a freak. He has since childhood. He sees himself as a monster, and recognizes that he's killed people, etc. Sam wants to see the "good" in monsters/freaks b/c he identifies w/them and doesn't see himself as completely evil, etc.
Dean dropped it b/c he saw how Sam reacted. He knew Sam was in a delicate mental space and just decided to not further debate w/him on how Amy needed to be killed, esp. since Sam sees himself as a freak.
If the resolution had picked up on these themes, then I wouldn't hate the storyline so much. The actual episode isn't bad, IMO, but b/c the resolution was so crappy and dumb that it made no sense.
Sam was upset b/c Dean was lying to him about his feelings and Dean was upset b/c he hates lying to Sam. Huh? What about Sam identifying w/freaks or Dean trying to spare his brother pain, etc? The resolution to the Amy drama was just plain bad, IMO.
X-FILES' and LOST loyally to the end, and they both disappointed me, having intoduced plot points that you were led to believe meant something down the road, but then just went nowhere. I kind of feel in some ways that's going on with Supernatural. Sam was supposed to be part demon. So whatever happened with that? It's suddenly over? And does anybody else remember how Dean not only was able to kill The Whore,but also Zachariah and also watch his grace leave him without going blind like other humans. He also has been the only character to somehow have never been able to be possessed by a demon, although yes, he did turn into a vampire. And, does Sam still have psychic abilities? Does he ever jones for demon blood? These seemed like they were intended to mean something, yet we never hear about them anymore. So Dean's out of character turns this season feels to me along the same vein.Writers introducing ideas just because they seem interesting at the time, then never following through.
I for one feel like the Michael/ Lucifer story is not really over. What about Adam? Sam and Dean just forgot all about their brother? What if Team FreeWill didn't truly avert the Apocalypse, only delayed it? I mean Michael and Lucifer are Archangels, supposedly THE most powerful beings next to God, now that the Leviathins are no longer as powerful. It seems they could finally manage to get out of the cage if they tried hard enough.
I had to stop reading the article at this statement, though:
"We waited all season for him to finally get the kick in the pants he needed and slip out of his funk, but he never did."
Considering Jensen Ackles' performances of the last two seasons, I have simply lost all patience and respect for anyone who now and still believes that "a kick in the pants" is what Dean needs/needed to get up and running again. No doubt this article probabyl reflects the belief that he needed/benefite d/deserved all the boo hoo and suck it up speeches he got and that he wasn't there enough or didn't show enough concern for Poor Sam-in his 85th time of terrible need. And I'd bet the ranch that that last bit is re-hashed in the Sam in S7 article along with Sam not getting enough storyline focus on his worst hell ever.
You can delete this if you want, but I've never in all my posting life felt such anger as I felt in my on-line interactions concerning this show as I felt when I read the above sentence, and I truly think that anyone who agrees with that statement, at this point in the story, is not worth discussing or debating the character or the story with any longer.
And I would further say that I think this is a perfect microscosm of the reason for the great gulf and division that has been created in the fandom turning it into what now seems to me to be an irreparable separation of the entire fandom into it's respective "camps"-3-count ing Cas'-and is key to why more than a few prefer that the brothers hunt more separately-beca use the bond has lost it's true meaning to them because the writers, like some in the fandom, simply refuse to see the depth that Jensen Ackles' acting has brought to his "unexciting" depression storyline and acknowledge that it should be handled differently because of that; and because clearly the way it's been handled series-long so far has only added to and made Dean's ever-deepening depression worse-never assuaging it in any way.
If Dean has seemed to be not "as caring" as he used to be, in my mind, it's simply because he can't feel any more-because he's been emptied of the ability to be caring now and after all he's been through. And I cannot blame him one bit.
I hope the new showrunner re-watches all the episodes from the beginning and makes his writers do the same, so that they will be able to come to the table with fresher and clearer eyes than the previous showrunners have had since mid S5; and that they will further pay less heed than their predecessors did to the often skewed, one way or another, opinions and thoughts of on-line fansites.
My fingers are crossed for this, more than anything else, as regards S8.
I don't believe "a kick in the pants" is what Dean needed. Perhaps if you read the rest of the article you would have seen that. I'm saying if the writers were going to do that to him, why didn't anything come of it? And instead of making snide comments and assumptions about the Sam article, why don't you fucking read it?
Also, lighten up. For God's sake, there are just too many people way to sensitive in this fandom. Going off on a rant for one freaking sentence is completely irrational to me. I welcome all opinions, I want to hear all sides, but I don't appreciate people coming here just to pick a fight. We behave a little better than that here. We are something called grownups.
I do however agree with you on one point. I do not want the writers to listen to fans. Any of us. This fandom is too polarized, too damn nuts in too many places. Everyone has these grand visions of the way they want their favorite characters to behave or act. All I'm hoping for really is the return of the brotherly bond.
If you decide to ever come back, next time post comments within our guidelines.
And as for Elliott Ness and his speech-just another someone who the writers decided to add to the list of those who need to let Dean know that his feelings matter so very, very little-loved ones, baddies, and now random acquaintances, just to make it complete, have all said it to Dean. Damn the bastard for not bucking up yet again. Damn him to hell.
And don't worry, I certainly won't return and your OTT anger only makes me feel like I might have struck a nerve. And if so, good. I hope so-even if we never exchange words ever again in this lifetime, and even if you delete this post, too.
Why aren't you following SaveCastiel on twitter since it is a much bigger campaign and therefore much more qualified to say it represents a majority of viewers?
As for the Silent Majority, we respect all fan opinions. That includes theirs. They have never come on this site and shared any Castiel or other character hate. If any of their members did, we would not allow it. What they post elsewhere is their business.
I would love to follow Save Castiel! We are a pro-Castiel site, and always have been. Please share their twitter account and I'll follow ASAP.
No, I won't delete your post. You actually are expressing a good opinion here in spots. Even if I don't agree you're making a point that adds perspective, for the most part. The car scene in "The Slice Girls" and the conversation in "The Mentalists" are scenes that have been open to many different interpretations . I'm really cool with you sharing your POV. Was it really necessary though to do so in an insulting manner?
I still don't think I'm condemning Dean. I love Dean. I just wish the writers went somewhere with his character this season. I say practically the same thing in the Sam article. Characterizatio n for both was awful. At least I hope you're saying "Damn him to Hell" because of me and not anything else said here. I haven't seen any anti-Dean comments here at all. Well maybe, one, but that was out of line.
Follow your own conscience as far a editing your own posts go. I get that people get angry and passions run high in this fandom-which is probably the main reason that my post seemed insulting to you. I was angry, too-angrier than I've ever been in my on-line posting life concerning this show; and I stated that and I still amm for that matter-I continue to stand by my entire post and especially on my feelings concerning those who still feel, at this point in the story, that Dean needs any kind of "a kick in the pants". I'd ask you to read that sentence from the perspective of a fan who loves and hurts for Dean and feels that the writers have disrespected the character immensely for years with those boo hoo and suck it up speeches coming at him from every corner-even from his loved ones-with little positive to ever offset them-and again, even from his loved ones. I think as a show of caring about and loving and understanding both characters, in at least a somewhat equal way, as is espoused on this as most feeling that they do-that it would have been nice of you'd actually said that you dislike them, too-I mean, if you do.
As I said, I read your article and I didn't get the feeling from it that they bother you that much at all, and yes, "Damn Dean to hell for not bucking up then and there" was what I took away from the article as your thinking after the Elliot Ness speech. It seems to me as if some here just want Dean back in his usual role of strictly and only fully supportive big brother and they don't care how the writers get him back there. Well, I do this time, and after the debacle of Fallen Idols. Furthermore, I'm not interested in the same supposed brother bond that we've gotten from these writers since that episode. I'd like to be shown something better this time around; a bond that uplifts Dean as much as it has seemingly uplifted Sam, again since that episode.
And I admit it, The Blame Dean game sets me off much more easily now and since that terribly written purported re-forging of the bond episode; and now we even have some Casfans playing it along with the no few in the Sam fandom who seemingly forever will.
For the record, I asked a friend whose judgment I trust implicitly if I should read the Sam article and she said no-that it wouldn't be good for my blood pressure. So instead, I'll just ask you to re-read both articles and ask yourself if you could possibly be placing too much blame on Dean and not being understanding enough(or even just AS understanding as you are when it comes to Sam) of all that Dean has been through since John died. We all want BadassDean back. I'm no longer as interested in seeing big brother protector Dean back, though, because since S5, it's been a predominantly thankless role for him, IMO. If the new showrunner would change that, then fine, but otherwise, I prefer it if they would focus more on the hunts than the brothers' relationship now.
Oh, and if you were alluding to me having a personal grudge against you and your site-no-your site, as it is, IS clearly not for me, but there's nothing personal in that feeling-at least from my side.
I don't know, to be honest I don't have a lot of time to count the Dean blame vs. the Sam blame on this site. I really think we've ended up slanting more Dean than Sam in recent times. I've seen it on both sides. I can't control the posters we attract, but I do love reading all sides of the argument. I adore the differing views in this fandom.
I really tried to limit the scope of this article to season seven. I did bring up some prior season examples, but that was meant to showcase how the brotherly bond has deteriorated. It was in the comments that season 4 and all that history was brought up. This article was not meant to be that sweeping. Sure, there's been plenty of character injustice in the past. I didn't address that here.
Heck, I'm not the authority. I just state opinions. I don't think I'm right compared to anyone else. I just don't get why some people keep coming back here in defense of their character in periodic spurts and express all sorts of outrage at this site and posters when the true issue is the writing is awful.
I agree with you in that I don't want Dean to be Sam's caretaker. I like them on equal footing. I'd love to see Dean again be a fighter, scrappy, badass, determined to save the world. This Dean being depressed crap pisses me off. I'm spending most of this article trying to figure out writer's intent more than my wishes for Dean and Sam. Like if they intended on Dean to snap out of his funk with those speeches, why didn't it happen? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting intent.
You are welcome back here with your opinions about Dean. I do think they're valid. Sorry again for losing my temper.
For the record, I see nothing wrong with EITHER brother assuming the caretaker role if the other is in need. I guess I don't see the problem with that but that's just me.
My problem this season was with the awful writing. Hopefully, JC is sitting down and really thinking about where he wants to take the show and the characters.
Even if I don't understand the whole Sam vs Dean thing, I understand passion for these characters (they do start to feel like family-don't they?) I just wonder if perhaps you are mistaking a character's POV for the writer's POV. Just because a CHARACTER express a view (ie Ness, Frank) doesn't mean that's the WRITER's view.
Keep in mind the is purely MY opinion. But I've seen a similar phenomenon when for Sam season 4 and 5. Several times it was insinuated that Sam was alone was responsible for the apocalypse, but the writers would be aware that we had actually watched the other episodes and would know that there were many involved including Dean and Cas. So IMO that is a CHARACTER view not necessarily a writers view. I just as I definitely don't think a writer thought Dean that was whining because he was tortured by what happened to him in HELL.
The same goes with Dean this season. We had several different hunter's POV, I don't think we are supposed to think these men are all-knowing beings. Frank was nut job. And Ness by his own admission had never been through what Dean has gone through. I saw them as food for thought for Dean. Another perspective, along with Garth's, through which Dean to view his life.
As far as Fallen Idols, CD28 expressed better than I, "It's hard to tell someone that your relationship is broken, and the broken relationship is having a negative effect on you, without it coming across as sounding blaming, but I think that's what Sam was trying to do. He made it clear he wasn't trying to shift blame. He was still taking responsibility for his actions. He was only trying to break old habits moving forward." That's EXACTLY how I saw when I watched the episode, but I could see how anyone who hasn't been in a similar relationship wouldn't get it.
Now I completely and totally disagree that Dean should stop being the protective older brother. (Especially since, although people have a tendency to ignore the fact, Sam is also a VERY protective younger brother) I see this as fundamental part of BOTH their personalities and think that the loss of Dean's protectiveness this season was a huge problem.
Now I don't want Dean's SOLE defining characteristic to be Sam's protector and conscious, but I've NEVER seen that as a problem. The closest was season 2, but even then there was a LARGE focus on Dean's struggle with all his father had laid on him, not JUST the Sam thing. First half of season 6 Dean was in "save Sam"mode, but since Sam was in Lucifer's cage I don't think that's an overreaction.
Dean and Sam love each other and they SHOULD be protective of one another -especially now since they are literally all they got. And they are the only who can truly understand what the other has gone through.
I do thank you so much for choosing our site. I try to have a mix of writers here that share a wide variety of opinions and viewpoints. It does give us balance. I'm very glad you feel the same way.
There are some posters that come back here on occasion and like to bash and cause trouble. They've never been fans of mine and are carrying some really stubborn grudges. Usually when I show a bit of a temper, it's because that person has a history with me and they've been warned about this sort of thing before.
The first script is already written. Prep on it starts next week. Shooting starts July 9th I think. It's the 3rd episode of the season and Jensen is directing. If the first two scripts aren't written they are very close to being done. I can't wait to hear what direction they're going in. For the record, Jeremy Carver used to read fan sites. I don't know if he still does, but I think he did it more for continuity research than ideas.
I am really excited about season 8! I will have to watch it online because here in India they are showing season 7.
Plus, this is really an issue between me and the poster. Your comment isn't appropriate to the discussion, which is about Dean Winchester. If you have a particular complaint about the site, please hit the "report to the administrator" button. Others did! We deal with all reports, no matter who's posting.
Shelby and Alice:
Shelby, please keep your comments civil. Alice had to edit a post of yours, and it seems you have a history of uncivil remarks. This is unacceptable. You are free to voice your opinion but only if you can do so without attacking the author of an article or a commenter. If you can't follow these guidelines, we will be more aggressive in editing your posts from now on.
Alice, name-calling is unacceptable. Period. ALL commenters must follow our guidelines, and that includes you. Don't let this happen again, or I will be forced to edit your posts.
This issue has been discussed amongst the admins, and all complaints have been forwarded to the proper channels. I hope we can all put this behind us and move on.
I find it amusing that Dean needs a good kick in the ass, yet Sam, who has shown himself to be quite self-absorbed and self-indulgent is the one that needs to be even more woobified and loved and cherished and told how awesome he is. Despite that this is what Gamble has done for the past 3 seasons and Kripke has done since season 2.
Hopefully Carver will give Dean a chance to be more proactive than Gamble did, and thereby bring back the badass, awesome character that defines Supernatural. I also hope that she doesn't make the mistake of catering to the fans who only want to see the story of Sam, ignoring Dean and Cas, as Gamble did the past two seasons which marked them as the worst seasons of the series.
I would like to see some fairness for once, where Dean gets treated with the respect he deserves, where Sam finally sees Dean as an equal and doesn't consider him as a second class citizen and where Sam finally thinks of someone else besides himself.
These are things you would never write Ms Jester, so I thought I'd suggest them to you and maybe you can see another side of the story, instead of just yours.
Clare, keep it civil, please. I've warned you upthread already. Since that warning was after you posted these comments, you won't be penalized for that, but you need to tone your comments down and keep it civil or we will edit your posts.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Your comments about Carver bringing back the badass are right on though. I'd like to see that too.
Also, keep your personal attacks to yourself. You don't know what I write and it's patronizing of you to assume otherwise. Again, that will be edited next time as well.
Dean gets up and he does his job and he really has taken care of Sam when Sam's needed it. Guess what you don't need to cease to exist and just sit and hold someone's hand to be taking care of them well enough when they needed it. Dean always made it clear that if Sam needed something, needed to talk, he'd listen, Sam didn't show any interest in doing so, so why in the world should Dean keep asking? Sam knows because Dean did ask when he did, after that it's up to Sam to take up the offer.
Dean functions and he does his job and he manages to look out for other people while doing so(because he DID do so as I said, it's utterly ridiculous to expect him treat Sam like a delicate flower and a child and to stop doing his job, Sam wouldn't do it, I remember all the excuses for Sam during Season 4 about how of course he had to put the job first, there was an Apocalypse to stop after all--funny how all that ended up doing was making the Apocalypse almost start faster). In fact the only "problem" with Dean externally that I can see is that he isn't so happy go lucky and good humored as he used to be, which considering his situation, I'd say isn't really that big of a problem compared to what he could be. Other than that Dean acts pretty much the same.
Apparently Dean's whole existence should revolve around Sam and Sam's problems, according to some poeple, even when there are much bigger problems at stake. It's funny how whenever Dean's got issues, ones he never gets the remotest amount of help or sympathy for because he's constantly expected to put everything and everyone else first all the time and has been his whole life, he's supposed to "get a kick in the pants"(not sympathy, not someone saying they know he's going through a lot no someone yelling at him and telling him he's a loser for not just "getting over it"), meanwhile Sam is supposed to mollycoddled and woobied and Dean's supposed to hold his hand but Dean is also supposed, while babying Sam and way more overprotective than he's ever been written in the show(people really need to stop confusing the show's canon with fanfic), he's also supposed to acknowledge Sam is the smartest, bestest thing ever and completely trust his judgment, despite the fact that Sam's judgment has been shown to be frequently quite wrong. Yet Sam still often refuses to trust Dean's judgement which is exactly what happened in the Amy story. All with the aforementioned good humor, the sort of thing NO other character on this show is expected to do, because I sure as heck don't see most of them smiling and being good humored about stuff. The best that can ever be said about the others is they aren't complaining, but they aren't actually expected to be smiling and good humored, which they rarely are.
The Amy situation to me was totally ridiculous, it should never even have made it as a storyline in the first place and IMO it made Sam look worse than it did Dean. It made Sam look gullible and lacking intelligence and like he hasn't learned anything over the past 4 years, like if Ruby were back today he'd make the same stupid decisions which led to him being tricked by her in the first place, pretty girl appeals to his ego and appeals to his "I need to validate my own self through proving that monstrous actions can be good".
Amy was a murderer, a serial killer in fact and any hunter who would actually fall for her "Oh but just right now my son is cured and I never have to do it again(until next time he gets "sick" I guess)" has got to be missing a large number of brain cells.
And talking about trust and judgment issues, Sam is the one who at the beginning of the Amy episode (also showing he's learned nothing since the show started) snuck out on his still injured brother(but that's fine if Sam leaves injured Dean, just not the other way around) to go investigate this "case", Sam didn't even return Dean's calls and didn't let Dean have any idea what he was doing.
So Dean had plenty of reason trust neither Sam nor his judgment. If Sam's judgment and reason were clear, he would not have snuck off in the middle of the night, he would not have left Dean in the dark about what he was doing and he wouldn't have ignored Dean's calls - all of this happened just an episode past Sam waving a gun around shooting at Dean because he couldn't tell the difference between an hallucination in his head and the real thing. Yet Dean is just supposed to trust Sam's just fine, just fine. Frankly IMO Dean's the only one acting either realistically or intelligently - because in real life no one would trust the judgment of someone who had not so long ago been waving around a gun shooting at them because of hallucinations.
At worst, all Dean did was finally do to Sam what Sam's been doing to Dean all these years, going behind his back and not telling him what he actually did. Gave Sam a taste of his own medicine. But at least Dean had the good grace to feel guilty about lying and he didn't try to force Sam to stay when Sam found out(showing more respect for Sam and Sam's feelings than Sam did for Dean's back in Metamorphosis for example) and he only finally put Sam in his place when Sam couldn't stop acting like a pissy teenager all about a MONSTER he knew for literally about half a day 15 years earlier whose overly convenient sob story about her sick but now suddenly cured child he decided to buy.
Personally I thought Sam's admission that Dean might be right(that was a new one, Sam almost never admits that, he usually continues to make excuses) and his other admission that he probably would have done something entirely different if he hadn't happened to have known said monster Amy is the most growth Sam's shown in years.
There wasn't anything hypocritical about Dean's actions because how often has Dean snuck out on Sam in the middle of the night and lied about where he was going? I think it's happened once in 7 seasons, and he admitted he was wrong to do so afterwards, and more than that how often has Dean gotten angry at Sam for killing a monster, an adult monster? Dean didn't even get upset at Sam later on in the season for killing his own "daughter" because he knew it was the right thing to do. In fact the funny thing about that is that Dean was OK with what Sam did, maybe regretful it had to happen, but by no means angry or upset with Sam and Sam was again the one acting all pissed off.
And I think all of us agree that Dean is a the stronger character? There is really no doubt about it in my own mind. He can take all his angst and bury it. That is mental strength.
Sam didn't grovel for forgiveness, imo, he said he was sorry, which is fine and understandable under the circumstances and most importantly he didn't grovel over the thing he really SHOULD have been, if he was going to grovel over anything, which was the long term betrayal of his brother. He barely acknowledged that at all and he surely never really apologized for it. A blanket "sorry for everything, I can't begin to say how sorry I am" really does not cut in that situation. He never acknowledged his own fault in it. Never once did he say "This is the reason I did this to YOU which has to do with ME and my own flaw/weakness(i nsert flaw/weakness here) and this is what I'm going to try to do in the future to change that". Which is funny because that's what Dean did when he apologized to Sam for making Sam betray him in Season 4 in Fallen Idols. LOL Dean managed to issue a better apology for something that he shouldn't have been blamed for in the first place, imo, than Sam did for a whole season worth of betrayal and lies. I have no idea how the writers thought that was a good idea unless they were actually trying to make people dislike Sam.
There is no reason for him to be "terrified" of Dean's reaction seeing as pretty much the only time Dean has BIG reactions is when finds out he's been LIED to BIG time. :) If Sam doesn't want a big reaction out of Dean? Yeah the best way to do that is to NOT lie to him and sneak around on him in the first place. Dean generally speaking, even if he doesn't like something that much, he'll just deal with it if he's told the situation right away. At worst Dean'll get a little mad, do whatever job has to be done at the moment and then try to move on to deal with the issue, when he's honestly disagreed with. From what we've seen, Dean rarely gets all that angry when he's told something straight up, he may try to convince them otherwise for a minute or two, he may disagree but he generally doesn't get all that angry. He deals with it.
It's when you lie to Dean, go behind his back and generally betray him that he gets really put out about it. :) I can't imagine why?
Sam and Dean were raised in a culture of lies so them lying is not new, or surprising. They had to lie to survive and they've also told some pretty big whoppers to themselves over the years.
In this instance, who lied first and what they lied about is much less important than why Sam and Dean felt they needed to lie to each other in the first place. The lies they both told were not the cause of their deteriorating/c o-dependent/une qual/whatever the hell they are calling it today relationship, merely a by-product of it. If the Sam Dean relationship was solid then there would have been no need to lie to each other.
I hated Sam's actions in Season 4 too. I wanted to see him apologize for the things he did, personally, to Dean too. After Fallen Idols, I realized the writers didn't think Sam needed to apologize for choking his brother and lying to him. Kripke & Co. clearly didn't think that was important. The Sam I feel I watched since Season 1 would have apologized. When I accepted that "Sam" can't say lines they don't write for him, I let it go.
You may not be able to do that though because as I said earlier it sounds like you just don't like Sam.
And as cd28 has pointed out, Dean has lied to Sam too.
I also feel that you don't like Sam much, but everyone is entitled to like or dislike characters. I guess a show like Supernatural makes all of us feel very strongly for the characters, one way or the other.
Anyway, what I care about is that Dean loves Sam. And l will continue watching Supernatural as long as their bond lasts!
And I think that right there will forever be a problem to me because it speaks volumes on how the writers see the relationship. Namely that Sam is absolutely entitled to demand total equality but that it is fine if he never, ever regards Dean as his true equal. He just doesn't have to reciprocate.
That this is seemingly the status of the relationship they wanted to achieve and that the current status quo "oh well, they have totally moved on and are fine now" is supposed to be the non plus ultra sucks to me.
This is not an equal partnership, especially not one with such a close personal component as this one is supposed to have and not one I can get behind anymore.
So if the brothers felt more like long-time colleagues than family during Season 7, I'm actually glad for it. If he was all "Sam, Sam, Sam" as in the past in light of the above, I'd consider him a complete pathetic doormat. By acting more like his own person still with his own identity, he retains some of his dignity.
Many male posters also didn't think it was a big deal and didn't feel Sam needed to specifically apologize for that act. I'm a woman so I thought a specific apology was necessary but realize that a man may not think so.
I have no idea, but I certainly know Kripke thought the brother relationship was strong and fine.
My main sticking point was the attitude of "stronger, smarter, better". That came out before Season 4, just not quite that strongly so actually when it got THAT bad during year 4, I felt heartened by it, sure they'd use that to adress it once and for all.
Only they never did. If I go by the narrative, Dean's response should have been "oh, you're totally right, I just have to accept my inferiority and be done with it". Instead of, like any normal human being, feeling insulted by it. That was the message Season 5 gave me.
Ironically, Season 4 didn't harden me against Sam's character, the handling of the redemption in Season 5 did. The big act of martyrdom of actually being the "one and only" was the complete wrong way to go to win back my sympathies. He got to atone for stuff I never blamed him for yet was completely validated for stuff that was and is my main problem with the character from the start.
But to bring it back to Dean, from his end, it's just not a partnership that works me on these terms. Just love without respect doesn't work for me. I would even prefer animosity with respect to it.
First and foremost I want the character to have some self-respect and it would nice to see the writers let him have some.
I have no idea, but I certainly know Kripke thought the brother relationship was strong and fine.
To be frank, seeing as he is a younger brother himself and creating a relationship where the older brother has to learn the wrongs about being so "bossy and mean" and accept how fantastically wonderful his younger brother is, no matter what he does (blood drinking included) while the younger brother has to...graciously accept it and change nothing about his own perspective? Colour me not impressed.
Fallen Idols was a horrible episode. They had, IMO, set up that Sam liked the power the DB gave him and the power he had over demons in Season 4, but had Sam telling Dean that Dean was too bossy and that's why he ran off w/Ruby. It made ZERO sense. Yes, Dean is bossy, but Sam will do what he wants when he really wants. We've seen Sam do his own thing before. The writing wasn't very good for whatever point they were trying to make. That episode just made it seem like Sam was blaming Dean for his whacked out choices. I didn't care for it. But like I said, I also realized that the writers clearly weren't thinking as I was and had different thoughts about the entire breakdown the previous year so I was not likely to EVER get what I wanted out of Sam and from the reconciliation so I let it go. It wasn't too hard for me b/c I like Sam and believe he does love and respect his brother.
I do understand how one could question if Sam respects Dean. After S&V, I wrote a post on Supernatural.tv questioning whether Sam had any respect for Dean at all. That episode left me floored and very upset. I wanted Dean to get in his car and leave Sam! Some said they heard comments from the writers and Kripke that the demon blood had an effect on Sam's feelings/though ts. If that was the case, then Sam would have been better served by them actually showing that or having Ruby say something to that effect.
I was finally able to move past it b/c at the end of the day though, I honestly believe Sam does respect and love his brother. I saw that for the 1st three seasons. You, Sasha, may disagree w/me there, but I think Sam does respect Dean. Did he have issues w/Dean always following John's orders? Sure. But I think a large reason for that was b/c Sam did think Dean was capable of making his own decisions. Sam didn't see any reason why Dean shouldn't veer off John's path and do what Dean wanted. I've never taken Sam's teasing or disbelief that Dean read certain literature as proof that Sam thinks Dean's a moron. I took it as innocent teasing btw brothers. I see Sam following Dean's lead for the most part and looking to Dean for guidance, etc. He wouldn't do that, IMO, if he didn't respect Dean or thought Dean was an idiot. That's JMO though.
I was discussing SS and Kripke's infamous comments (which I never read) elswhere, and I honestly didnâ€™t see SS as making any statements about Dean accepting Sam drinking demon blood. I saw it as an opportunity for Sam to fix what he broke (i.e., setting Lucifer free). Sam had to consume demon blood so his body wouldnâ€™t explode or fall apart like Nickâ€™s. To me, that was just a plot point. The demon blood drinking occurred in one scene in the episode. I never focused on it that much. I liked how Sam didnâ€™t want Dean watching him drink that crap, and I liked how Dean was disgusted by it. Even though I didnâ€™t care for a lot of Season 5, I really loved SS and have watched it several times now. To me, it was a great episode.
If Kripke had some larger message to convey about Dean finally accepting Sam as a supernatural being or Dean being okay w/Sam drinking demon blood, then I think he missed the mark. I didnâ€™t come away from SS w/that impression. I honestly donâ€™t know anyone who did. The only people Iâ€™ve seen who believe what Kripke said are those who read the article/intervi ew he gave. And if you have to read an article/intervi ew to get the underlying meaning of a show/scene/stor yline, then the writing has majorly FAILED, IMO.
Thereâ€™s nothing about SS that even hints at what Kripke said in that interview - at least not in my opinion. Dean didnâ€™t delightfully slay a few demons for their blood or tell Sam how he now understood why it was so important for Sam to drink demon blood. Sam didnâ€™t proudly gulp down the demon blood while the others patted him on the back! The act was performed in secrecy and practically under cover. It was not celebrated or rejoiced. It was a disgusting act and was treated as such, IMO. Whatever Kripke THOUGHT he was doing, he failed, if the idea was that Dean needed to accept his brother no matter what he does! That doesn't even make sense. Who accepts anyone unconditionally ?
The reality is that family members do affect each other, and people do fall into family roles that are very hard to shake. I don't think Sam was reacting so much to the "bossiness" as he was the inequality of their relationship - even in the better times. John drilled into Dean that he needed to "protect" Sam, but that left Sam forever in the role of a child. He tried to break away from this role by running away, going off to college, rebelling against his father, and finally by feeling stronger by drinking demon blood.
It's hard to tell someone that your relationship is broken, and the broken relationship is having a negative effect on you, without it coming across as sounding blaming, but I think that's what Sam was trying to do. He made it clear he wasn't trying to shift blame. He was still taking responsibility for his actions. He was only trying to break old habits moving forward.
The last words of any kind of respect that Sam gave to Dean were in PONR and they were delivered in such a back-handed way, with Dean yet again being made to look "wrong" for yet again being to "over-protectiv e" of Sam and not trusting Sam's judgment enough-while yes, Sam just took it all in and never said that his actions had easily warrented that mistrust and just smiled magnanimously at big brother's learning of yet another "lesson" on all he's done wrong with and for Sam Pffffffffft. I hated the brother scenes in that episode.
I lost interest in the brother bond because I don't think the writers ever properly acknowledged the problemS! that it presented(and still presents) for DEAN; and how some of the things that Sam did(and again, still does), has often held Dean back from being hs own person-instead, I think the writers have just decided that yes, while Dean WAS a part of all that held Sam back, Sam in no way has ever kept Dean from being his own person-that apparently is all on Dean according to these writers; and things such as showing us a Sam who depserately needs Dean when he desperately needs him, but otherwise, they give us a Sam who finds Dean"over-protectiv e" and/or "too bossy" or "overly-control ling" whom Sam can very easily leave behind when it suits him has had nothing whatsoever to do with Dean's issues and what's always held him back-or a Sam whose small, but series-long, consistent knocks on Dean's intelligence have nothing whatsoever to do with Dean's low sense of self-worth and self-esteem-or Sam's lack of thought that Dean could use some actual positive words regarding his strength of will and his hunting acumen, instead of the negative spin Sam has predominantly voiced on that, for whatever his reasons/excuses , since Dean came back from hell.
Everyone here says they want to feel the bond between the brothers again, but for many(outside this site), that won't happen unless Carver addresses these things(that again, aren't mentioned here very often or are shot down as "needless" or OOC as something the brothers would "talk" about, when they are-which is untrue, IMO-if they did it once for Sam, they can and should do it one more time for Dean-although a part of me suspects that the Amy situation was a poor attempt at this). That's why I hope with all hope that the writing team will have re-watched the series before they plan out S8.
If they're going to further address the brother relationship, *I* would hope that after almost 3 seasons of Dean having had to learn the bulk of the lessons on it, that Sam might now get the bulk of that for this one season and since his issues are no longer so immediate or urgent. I'm no longer interested in their fixing what Dean has done wrong. It's been played out, IMO-and if that's all they want do some more, then I too, and as another poster further down said, would prefer if they would just leave it as it was in S7 because at least Dean was allowed to keep his dignity as regards the bond and relationship in S7, IMO; and I'm far more interested in seeing them return to Dean his dignity, self-respect and confidence in himself, as a hunter, anyway.
And Sam did not ABANDON Dean when he went to Stanford-he left for college. But he STILL apologize he was wrong in PoNR. But he also DID apologize for his mistakes in season 4 and kept trying to apologize more but Dean became angry and cut him off. Sam said he was punishing himself. He was definitely punished in the cage. But most of his crimes weren't directly AGAINST Dean, they were self-protection lies like a child tells because he doesn't want to get in trouble. But he stopped lying completely in season 5 and the only time he really has lied since was when he was Soulless and about his hallucinations/ mental health. What other things has he done to Dean and how does he make up for it?
How has he kept Dean from being his own person? Yeah he has some self esteem issues, but how is SAM to blame for those?. Other than those few times I mentioned before, when has he EVER said anything bad the about Dean? Now their dad was hard on them both and Dean took everything his dad said to heart. Some of those things were about Sam, but that is not Sam's fault. If anything Sam defended Dean, such in Something Wicked and Dark Side of the Moon.
Dean WAS too bossy, controlling and overprotective (though I like the overprotective sometimes). I think it came from basically raising Sam. He got in a habit. Through most of the seasons he would say they were doing something and they would do it. Sam would have to convince Dean to do something. But he's been better, since Fallen Idols, when Sam made that speech that apparently a large portion on the fandom mistook for blame-(it wasn't and Sam said it wasn't). Sam actions were not so different from a someone rebeling against controlling parents. Whatever dumbass thing the person does is still their own fault, BUT they have to stop the pattern in order to not make the same mistakes again.
I think Dean not fighting Sam jumping was his way of showing support.
I'm am all for Dean not being so hard on himself and dealing with the guilt and letting it go, but again I don't think those issues are Sam's fault.
I can start a sentence with "I don't blame you but if you hadn't done X, I wouldn't have been driven to do Y". And it is totally blaming the other person. What I truly mean to say after the "but" is "it's your fault".
Likewise, any speech that carries the message of "our relationship NEVER worked in the past because of all these things YOU did wrong...now change them already" is not going to go over too well with me.
Okay, fine, anything that was wrong on Sam's end then? Anything HE feels like correcting? Just Dean then? Fantastic. This entire message in Season 5 that Dean and only Dean was at fault for everything that went wrong in their relatinship disgusted me.
And I never saw him being that bossy and controlling, other than 5.05 where they made a point of it to knock him down for it and give Sam the entire argument.
Hilariously, throughout Season 4, Sam got increasingly on a "he is so weak and pathetic, I need to be the one to do it because I'm strong" kick, he did what he wanted, he went with Ruby.
And after one episode, Dean didn't put up any struggles whatsoever. He tried to make nice with Ruby even, he defended the use of the powers, he didn't actively try to stop Sam even once until Sam became an outright junkee. He once tiredly asked Sam not at least not to lie to his face - only to be lied to his face.
Throughout nearly all of Season 4 Sam did what he wanted ultimately. The only thing Dean didn't do is go all Ruby and be "wonderful, you're the man, you're awesome, yes, Sir". And THAT made him so "controlling and bossy" that Ruby became an alternative? Looked back nostalgically on even in Season 5? Noone ever played Sam for a bigger fool than she did, she only did it in an ego-preserving way.
Now Dean is not the type for that but quite frankly he shouldn't have to be. He had a right to have his own opinion on demon blood drinking. He had a right to have his own opinion on handlin Lilith. He had right to voice those opinions. He had a right to follows his own instincts.
At least as an equal partner he should have those rights.
In the past they tried to tell us that his behaviour towards John was unhealthy. In that case, molding him into someone who should act the way with Sam as he did with John isn't okay either.
Even in that argument, he NEVER said that the apocalypse was in any way Dean's fault. He said the PARTNERSHIP was not going to work if they continue the way they had in the past. Because he needed to have a say in how things were handled, so he didn't end up falling into the pattern of behavior that had led to those mistakes. I know there is probably no way anyone who hasn't been in a similar relationship would understand that. But it is not the same thing.
Taking the responsibility to change the relationship is a good thing for both Sam and Dean. If he'd just said "I'm a screw up so you make the decisions." (which a lot of addicts do basically giving up all rights but also all responsibilitie s) he would be giving Dean not only all the power but all the weight of the consequences of those decisions. So if anything went wrong it would be all on Dean. By saying he has to shoulder some of the weight of decision making he actually shouldering the weight of the outcome of those decisions.
Sam also NEVER said that Dean was the only one at fault in creating those patterns. He just said they couldn't continue.
Season 4 Sam made a LOT of idiotic decisions no question and I do think he thought Dean was a little broken from hell(and Sam was probably right). And OF COURSE Ruby played in for a fool, she was his drug dealer. Your drug dealer is of course going to tell whatever they need to so you'll keep coming back. He wasn't fighting for he decisions with Dean in season 4. Instead he took the immature, addict route and hid what he was doing from Dean (probably because deep down he knew DB was wrong). In season 5, he stood up and argued his view instead going behind Dean's back. He grew up.
You may not like it but Sam has mentioned his frustration w/Dean following John's orders, and he has spoken about wanting Dean to treat him like an equal partner. I'm not even saying I agree w/Sam; I'm just saying those issues have been raised in the show. It would make no sense for Dean to suddenly tell Sam that his self-esteem in the crapper b/c Sam acted shocked when Dean said he read The Iliad or something. Similarly, it would make no sense for Sam to suddenly tell Dean his self-esteem sucks b/c Dean playfully calls him "geek boy" or whatever.
The brothers tease each other. It's not meant to be taken as serious jabs to the other. The only people who feel Dean has been damaged by Sam's comments are some Dean fans. Dean doesn't appear to be affected.
Dean's low self-esteem can be blamed on one thing and one thing only: John's crappy parenting. I like John, but he was sucky father. If anyone had an impact on Dean's self-esteem, it was John.
And the nature of the Dean's problem precludes him from calling Sam out on it because having been raised that way from childhood he himself is unaware of the fact that there even IS a problem; so just becuase Dean can't see it, doesn;t mean that it isn't there-and for that reason, yes, I'd hardly expect that it could be handled in the exact sma way that Sam's issues were handled. More than likely, a third party would be necessary to point this out, but I hardly expect it to happen in any case, because I honestly don't think these wrtiers realize or see the extent of the depth that has been created in their characters-and much of this coming predominantly through their actors' additional contributions to the written characterizatio ns of them. So again, I would beg Mr. Carver and co. to Please. Re-watch. Every. Single. Episode. before they write even one scene for S8.
And I felt that from early in the series that Dean referring to Sam as freak was also only "brotherly teasing"-especi ally when we see Dean calling himself a "freak" in Skin. So why couldn't/wouldn 't it be shown that Sam's apparently only "brotherly teasing" of Dean's lack of a college/"booksm art" education might have deeper implications for Dean and the reasons behind his lack of self-esteem and low sense of self-worth also. That would seem very realistic in any human relationship type of way to me.
But again, I doubt that even the new regime will see that deeply into the characters, so I'm just really(and trying to keep my expectations realistic here) hoping for no more(not even one!) boo-hoo or suck it up speeches for Dean and a return of his full hunter mojo in S8. I can't forsee them writing Sam too much differently because frankly, I think they like and want to keep Sam as he is and has been since mid S5.
What I'd really like to see is Dean really fall in love. Just once. We got to see Sam fall passionately in love with Madison. Now, ok, yes, he DID have to kill her so yes, that was worse of course than anything Dean has had to deal with regarding women and I admit that. But we've NEVER even seen Dean fall passionately in love yet. I don't count Lisa, and I don't count Cassie either because we never saw the falling in love process. We were told long after the fact, and that's just not the same. And yes, I guess to make it fair, the woman Dean fell in love with would probably have to die also. But just once I would love to see that side of Dean.
And then fate stuck a big knife into both of them and it was all gone as quickly as it began .
Sam did have feelings for her wether it was love in the same way he felt for Jessica? I doubt but the begins were there just never really got a chance.
Dean has falling love with Lisa and fulfilled a some what normal life wether he is open to a connection with someone now? is hard to tell.
I must say the Winchester boys fall in love quickly. Dean knew Cassie for 2 weeks or so but Sam takes the cake w/Madision. He "fell in love" after 24 hours! LOL
And it's got to be someone he really has chemistry with. He had chemistry in spades I thought with Alona Tol i.e. Jo. Ok, maybe she still had to die, but I always hated that she clearly loved him but they made it appear that he looked at her like a little sister. Why the hell couldn't they have had him return the feelings and consummated that relationship before she died? It would've been hot!
And then there was Bela. I think they could have had a love/hate relationship, and I thought she and Dean also had a strong sexual tension, when they weren't trying to kill eachother! If not love, they should have at least had a moment where they released all that tension against a wall or an elevator or something. And she and Jensen also had similar hair and eye color, and a similar snarky, sparring personality. I think he had the most chemistry with these actresses, and the writers wasted it.
I didn't mind Bela that much (my sister totally HATES her- something about her voice or accent. She hates Alastair for the same reason) and though many people cringe at the idea, I will admit to being mildly disappointed that we did get to see the angry sex. Dean. I don't see them having a love connection though.
Out of the female characters we've seen. I been racking my brain about who I liked him best with then it hit me. CHARLIE. HA! I Know she's into to girls, but someone like her (or if you were ever going to switch teams it would be for a Winchester IMO). A smart, joyous person who obviously can give as good as she gets and obviously has a little freak in them. He enjoys giving the nerds a hard time and she could match him movie ref for movie ref. Perfect match. HA! Writers Make It So.
Gotta stop and go to work now, we can get too caught up in this can't we?
I think the balance of power was off for me. Jo seem like such a babe in the woods compared to Dean, at least in season 2. I did like them together in Abandon All Hope, probably because she had come into her own more by then. But then of course she died-so that came to not.
Season 1 - Both save Dad. Dean had keep his family together. I even read several reviews that wondered if Dean was the really lead, since we got more inside his head than Sam's.
Season 2- Was dealing with his dad telling him he might have to kill Sam and the fact that his father had not only died but died for him.
Season 3 - Entire season was about Dean's deal.
Season 4 - Dealing with returning from hell and torturing and eventually finding out he broke the first seal. Also he was told he had been saved in order for some great purpose by the angels. He was part of God's plan, according to them.
Season 5 - He was to be Michael's vessel. We had several episodes focused on getting him to say yes.
Season 6 - Lisa and Ben and failing to live be able a normal life and putting them in danger.
Season 7 - I might give you this one, except that I THINK all that depression and apathy is leading up to something in big season 8. Hopefully. And other than first 3 episodes, I didn't really see him taking of Sam this season.
I not trying to start a thing. I've just read this no storyline thing before and I don't really get it. The only thing I can see is that he didn't have a supernatural storyline in some of the seasons, but that's not even true of 3-5.
I'm going to have to agree with lala2 on Heart. I think Sam really cared about her, but I don't think he loved her. I would believe Dean loved Lisa much more easily over that.
I think in Heart the reason Sam was SO upset had more to do with the fact that there was nothing they could do to save her. He was dealing with his own possible impending darkside and was wondering if he could be saved.
I would like both guys to be able to fall in love and have some happiness. But I don't see that happening. It's the same problem the show has always had. In order for the audience to buy into it, it has to be a recurring character who Sam or Dean and the audience can grow to love. But since the show moves from week to week building a relationship is problematic. Plus I don't seeing either character risking it without a BIG changing in their protective attitudes. Another hunter is perhaps the only way I could see to overcome both problems. Although you'd still have the problem of some of the fangirls. LOL.
In Season 3 in theory he had a supernatural storyline but only got passive emo reactions to it. Which at the time I could deal with because I was so glad they followed through and allowed him to be sent to hell.
Then in Seasons 4 and 5 he supposedly had an actual plotline and even a stake in the arc but that was completely nullified by 5.22 and shown to be a red herring so I can't in good conscience count it anymore. A bad ending that made him utterly superflouus to the entire 5 year story? They could have just as well erased Seasons 4 and 5 for the character.
Season 6? Another vague emo on the side. He had nothing whatsoever to do with the real plot.
I already said what I think the "purpose" of the depression during Season 7 was. Nothing.
Purgatory to me is the only real chance, if they do something with it, for the character to have an actual plotline again. With a real solution this time where he isn't thrown out of the story for tertiary character number 8.
If we're nullifying Dean's season 4 and season 5 story because he never became Michael's vessel, then we need to nullify Sam's season 1 and season 2 story because Sam never became Azazel's leader of the demons.
I disagree that season 3 wasn't a good story for Dean. The Hell contract was damn scary, and we got some great character development out of it.
I agree that both Sam and Dean were passive observers in the main storyarcs for seasons 6 and 7 (the soulless Sam arc didn't amount to anything either).
I wouldn't say Sam had much of a story in season 5 since the idea that Sam might say yes to Lucifer was only thrown in as an afterthought in the final few episodes, and we really got little emotional POV from Sam about it.
So we have Dean having one strong season (3) and Sam having one strong season (4). Can we call it even?
To be honest, I think this idea that the story needs to be about the main character is a little unrealistic. Most stories are not structured so that the hero of the story is also the source of conflict. So I have this question for you - do you want Dean to be the monster that everyone hunts, because that seems to be what "having a story" on SPN usually means?
And the soulless Sam plot wasn't part of the main arc but got lots of coverage in the Season. So my breakdown plotwise comes down to 6:1. Which ain't exactly even.
The story of Sam's destiny WAS however structured with him at the very center of it. He was important and the respective bad guy after him. Everyone else was exchangeable and expendable, orbiting around him in terms of however much worth was distributed to them in relation to Sam.
So if Dean got that? Being the one at the center of the mystery, the one who is tantamount to the plot and the only one who can do XY whereas the other characters only orbit around him? That would be having a story to me. And by all means give the emo, POV or whatever to everyone else. I'm really, really, really not interested in that anymore for the character.
Have HIS story told through another's eyes? That would be fine for me. Just not longer him being the narrator of another story.
But he never did go darkside. Even when he was drinking demon blood and saying yes to Lucifer, he was doing only it to stop the Lilith/the Apocalypse. If the ending is the most important part, the ending is that Sam was still the good person he was when the story started. So again, if we're nullifying Dean's season 4 and 5 story because he didn't end up as Michael's vessel, then we need to nullify Sam's story too because he never turned evil.
The hero is tempted, may have a dark destiny but in the end triumphs over it. That is what happened here and it was a story with beginning, middle (which got extended) and triumphant ending.
Dean had a late beginning, a middle and exit stage left.
For me it would have been comparable had Lucifer said in the end "you know what, Sam, don't mind me, I found Joe the milkman in Ontario and he works for me just as well, so sorry for the bother." And then it wouldn't have mattered a hill of beans if Sam ever had a destiny, what he did about it, what he felt about it, if he said yes or no.
Just like in my eyes it didn't matter if Dean said yes or no or was brought back from hell or anything. There was Adam and he worked in a pinch.
But this is probably an agree to disagree point because even now 5.22 is still a hot topic for me. I have seldom loathed a TV episode like I did this one.
In contrast, as you pointed out, Sasha, Dean's mytharc connection was shoehorned in, explored for awhile, and then "exit stage left" . Dean's own thorough through storyline hasn't been about moving the plot or being directly important to the main storyline- it's revolved predominantly around taking care of Sam: protect Sam in S1, kill or save Sam, worry about Sam's blood addiction/power s/Ruby's influence, stop being a bossy big brother, get Sam's soul back and worry about Sam's wall, worry about and fix Sam's hallucinations (although, unlike past seasons, Sam's problems didn't dominate Dean's storyline- or whatever we call Dean being depressed.) Kripke admitted that he only moved Dean into the mytharc and out of a sidekick role in S4 because Dean became so popular. I don't see Dean as a sidekick anymore but I also don't see the same commitment to tell a good story for Dean as there is for Sam. The hallucinations might not have been as well developed as it could have been but at least it had a beginning and a resolution. I still don't know what was the point of the 5 episode Lisa arc or Dean's moping this season.
Which is why I really hope for a change next season. If Dean really has moved beyond simply functioning as an extension of Sam's story and is an equal lead character, there's no reason why this Purgatory storyline shouldn't focus on him in that capacity. And it'd be great for Sam to be showcased as the devoted younger brother, singleminded in his determination to help Dean. That's a role reversal that I'd love to see.
And Sam has been the devoted younger brother. Even in season 4, when Sam was at his worse he had Dean's back for the most part. And after a few glaring exceptions in season 4, he was right back to being devoted in season 5.
I see your point about Sam and I really do believe Sam loves Dean. But for 7 years, the show's saddled Sam with these huge problems that he's had to constantly deal with. Even this season, Jared said Sam couldn't worry too much about Dean because he had so much on his own plate.
Dean, otoh, has spent a good chunk of the series focused on taking care of Sam and his problems. Like how, in S4, Dean's PTSD took a backseat to Sam's ongoing blood addiction. I'm not blaming Sam or anything- it's just that Sam's storyline drove the plot and Dean tagged along. I'd like to see that changed up next season, with Sam should have the chance to focus on Dean without being sidetracked by Lucifer or being the Chosen One or demon blood. That way, we can see Dean being Sam's #1 priority in the same way Sam has been shown to be Dean's #1 priority. Hope that makes sense.
Neither Sam nor Dean (nor Han Solo IMO) are expendable. Lose every other characters (and we have) and the shows still SPN, despite feeling the loss. Lose Sam or Dean and there is no show. The show is about the two of them. Take either one away and it might as well be cancelled. I might debate whether Bobby or Cas should come back and if the show is better w/ or w/o them. But I would not even bother to debate if one of the boys were gone. I would stop watching new episodes and comfort myself with reruns. And I'm almost positive I'm not in the minority with fans or critics.
Jared made his comment about THIS season because Sam was losing his mind, not every season. And Dean was definitely NOT taking care of Sam this season after episode 3. In fact, I think that Sam actually rescued Dean more this season than vice versa.
Dean has always cared about Sam and looked out for him, but it not like it completely consume him. In fact, season 2 Dean was consumed with his Dad dying and his final words and Sam was trying to help him out even though is was his Dad too. Now once Sam learned about everything he had a freak out for a couple episodes. But it's not he was bed ridden and Dean was having to stay home to comfort him.
Season 3 was all about Dean.
Season 4 Was split pretty evenly IMO I didn't see his story taking a back seat at all. It was dealt with in 1, 4, 5, 6,7, 8, 10,14,15,16,17, 21 and 22 in some capacity. A few were practically full episode.
Season 5- They were both barely hanging on. Dean didn't do a lot taking care of Sam, except for MBV. Now I will agree that Sam's mistake and the Apocalypse hung over the entire season.
Season 6 - I give you, because he was trying to save Sam while keeping SS in check the first half of the season.
7 again 1 episode after episode 3, where he even dealt with Sam's problems AT ALL.
And Sam has looked after Dean on many occasions throughout the show, but I would be perfectly to see that continue.
In fact it wasn't until Season 4 that Dean going to hell was a significant storyline for DEAN. In Season 3, it was more of a storyline for Sam - trying to find a way to prevent Dean going to hell, and as the impetus for Sam discovering his new powers, which leads right into Sam's storyline in Season 4.
That was Eric's idea Luke SkyWalker and Han Solo but that is not the concept we got.In fact with Sam I think we got Darth Vader not anywhere near Luke.
Eric said 'In many ways Dean was the true hero of Supernatural' and that is the way I believe the writing has gone .Sam needed a story that reminded people there was a person there and not a plot line then maybe there would of been less chance of the twisting of Sam as a character and his relationship to Dean by some looking to pull the character down and victimize Dean at the hands of his 'evil' little brother.
I am an SF fan, and started seeing SPN in its 4 and 5th seasons. At that time (I am a fan of Star Wars and have been for years) I too thought that Sam was turning into Darth Vader. I did not know any background of the series, nor had I read any interviews and I had not seen seasons 1-3. Thankfully Sam did not turn into Darth Vader but the comparison stuck in my mind and when I told my daughter she was surprised (she has been seeing SPN from the start). After seeing seasons 1-2 I realised that Sam was certainly not Darth Vader but he had certainly seemed on the verge of turning into him if one went by Dean's POV.
But in any case I had a soft spot for Darth Vader, before he became who he became. The story of how he turned was so tragic!
Jensen had tried out for Sam and they really like him. But they saw Jared and thought he would make a better Sam, especially since he was younger and had the puppy dog eyes (ok I added that last one). They thought Jensen would make an amazing Dean, which he does, because he kind of played Sam how they wanted Dean to be. So Kripke calls up Jensen and says they want him to be Dean, who has more of that smartass Han Solo thing going. And as Kripke said who doesn't want to be Han Solo. I don't think it was suppose to be a hard and fast template. Just a generally thing to sell it to Jensen. Jensen has said he really preferred to play Dean anyway, so he was happy to switch.
And people being mad that Dean wasn't ever a Michael's vessel is completely odd to me. Being a vessel ISN'T a good thing the character you'd be seeing is the douche bag Michael not Dean so HE wouldn't be in the story - Michael would. He would just be an angel condom. Jensen would be on the screen but Dean wouldn't- how would that be a Dean storyline.
Dean's thing is being human and how that is often stronger than any supernatural power that comes up against it. Dean took on Michael and Lucifer with nothing but Def Leppard and the Impala and love for his brother-AND WON. I found that completely KICKASS. My sister, who has a total crush on Dean, just watches that part over and over because he's so completely badass. Going in knowing you're completely outmatched is actually much more impressive than when he was a vampire and took out that whole house(although that was pretty cool). In fact the MOST impressive about vampire Dean is that he didn't feed and so was able to be human again. Gordan didn't last an hour.
I have high hopes for Purgatory too and hope both get great storylines out of it. I would even like it if Dean had some sort of supernatural quality to him when he got back and Sam has to deal with things through more humans means. I think that would be an interesting twist. Especially considering how Dean feels about monsters. But I don't see how he can have an actual plotline AGAIN since you don't think he ever had one.
Also, I quite liked Season 2 because a) the emo wasn't overdone as it is now and b) I still had hopes that Dean would be drawn into the main arc sooner or later. I simply expected it to happen for a lead.
So what I hated is Seasons 6 and 7. And I was close to giving up but the Purgatory twist gave me back a little hope.
With 5.22 it is my most hated episode ever by a longshot and really, with a few minor adjustments Dean didn't even need to be in it. He didn't even need to be brought back from hell and be in Seasons 4 and 5 and you could have the same "Sam remembers and becomes the big lone hero" story scene for scene. In terms of importance in this episode, it went: Sam - Lucifer- the car - Michael - Adam- Castiel - Dean - Bobby for me. As the culmination of the five year mytharc, I found it to be horrible. Every single scene of it.
I would even like it if Dean had some sort of supernatural quality to him when he got back and Sam has to deal with things through more humans means. I think that would be an interesting twist.
That would be perfectly fine with me. It gives him the mystery, it sounds interesting and it sounds like the first genuine role reversal on this show that I could get behind.
For once, Dean would gain something from it and what he had to give away (the human perspective, as written in this show) is no big loss to me.
So if that happened, fantastic.
And I put in the "again" because I had to technically allow for the "going to hell" to stand as a storyline. Not too well executed IMO but at least it had a great resolution.
Dean was at his lowest and got over it and decided to put a fight and choose their own destiny because of Sam. He was strong.
Had Dean said yes, and I wouldn't love him the tenth part I love that character now. I don't understand why anyone would want to change that part.
I didn't necessarily want Dean to become Michael's vessel, but I think it was far worse for Dean's own importance to the overall story arc that he was so easily replaced in his role by Adam. As Kripke wrote Michael saying to Dean, "You're no longer part of the story."
And Kripke was right about that. At the culmination of Kripke's 5 year arc, Dean was written out of his own story. All the show allowed Dean to do was watch as Sam's actions saved the world.
So yeah... I do totally disagree that SS was a win for "human" Dean.
who triumphed (I am not denigrating Sam's accomplishment- he made an horrible sacrifice and whose only reward would be almost 200 years of torture). But Sam would not have been able to overcome Lucifer if it hadn't been for Dean. I don't see that as being written out of the story in anyway and I DEFINITELY see it as a win for human Dean.
But one thing I think we can both agree on is that Sam's hallucinations and near death storyline, were not given anywhere near the attention it deserved, ( and then they gave it to Cas) and Dean was relegated to being a suicidal alcoholic. Bobby, Cas, hell even CHARLIE were given better story arcs then Sam and Dean! Much of the time this season they were supporting players in their own show! Only poor Kevin, I felt, was as shortchanged. I thought he really improved from the time we first met him as a scared kid not believing what was happening to him, to the finale where he seemed to finally accept his fate as a prophet an even started to get a little game, picking the lock with a hairclip, stressing to Sam how important it was to blow up the lab, etc. I really hope they flesh his character out more next season. The only supporting player that I don't mind getting a lot of screentime is Crowley, of course.
Yeah, I know that the nature of Sam and Dean's lives, they can't really have relationships per se. And yes, I would also like to see Sam have a romance as well as Dean. Or maybe a role reversal; Dean falls in love and Sam gets the one night stands! LOL
I think you were SUPPOSED to hate Ruby, at least by the end of season 4. But you got to admit, she was effective. Not only did she let Lucifer out and set up to have his vessel waiting for him. But she also came between Sam and Dean. I mean that horrible but impressive. LOL.
One of the reasons I really like the possibilities of this of purgatory is that I see Sam and Dean being able to be really connected to it. I think that may have hurt season 7. Although it definitely wasn't my biggest problem with it.
And don't get me wrong, I would LOVE from them to have a real love connection especially something that could last beyond the show. I just don't think its likely unfortunately.
Quote: You stated that you felt Deanâ€™s apology and follow on actions in Fallen Idols, surpassed anything that Sam gave. Yet, Sam took the exact same course of action as Dean did, just over a longer period. He verbally apologised and then spent the rest of the season 5 making a concise effort to make amends.
Quote: Yet when Dean lies, goes behind peopleâ€™s backs, generally betrays them and they get really put out about it, how does he react??
I would like to see some fairness for once, where Dean gets treated with the respect he deserves, where Sam finally sees Dean as an equal and doesn't consider him as a second class citizen and where Sam finally thinks of someone else besides himself."
Yahtzee! :) It's Sam who generally treats Dean as some sort of 2nd class half wit whom he reacts with surprise every time Dean shows he has the actual knowledge he has. I mean Sam still acts surprised that Dean's ever cracked open a book(and in fact has read some pretty complex stuff), someone to be patronized and condescended to and patted on the head. Dean does treat Sam like an equal, it's Sam who doesn't treat Dean like an equal, imo. I'd love to see Sam actually show some appreciation for Dean as a hunting partner, maybe his not being there for a while(fingers crossed Purgatory isn't "blink and you missed it") and Sam being neither Rubied or Soulless this time will maybe Sam'll come to appreciate the skills and knowledge that Dean brings to the team instead of being all "I'm stronger/smarte r/better and don't really need him but keep him around cause he's family" as he has been in the past.
Dean, as he said himself, was the one was trust and respect issues this season. NOT Sam.
When has Sam even metaphorically patted Dean on the head. He's sarcastic sometimes with Dean as Dean is with Sam, because know they're BROTHERS.
Sam shows all kind of love and appreciation for Dean. Now early season 1, I will give you, Dean seemed more invested in family than Sam. But I don't think that's been true since In My Time of Dying and perhaps not since Faith. He said some dumbass things while under the siren spell, but so did Dean. And Dean has said just as mean things NOT under any spell.
Dean is a great guy and a great character, but vilifying Sam does not turn Dean into a saint. He's made mistakes, not as many as Sam, I'll grant you. But he's not perfect and neither are his actions towards Sam. I understand loving characters, but I have to admit this Sam vs Dean thing baffles me.
Well said, Kelly. Excellent post.
In Season 1 and early Season 2 not so much, I thought he was well on his way to (and both brothers were) get to know each other as adults and a growing respect came from that.
But since then? Nope. He may respect some parts of his brother but I don't believe he sees him as his equal - for example I'm 100 % sure he sees him as downright dumber. It's really not just the Siren spell, it's tidbits like it here and there in a lot of episodes before and since. Yet he himself wants Dean to respect him in every way possible. And sorry, I don't think one can make such a demand without reciprocating completely. I would have more respect for that if I didn't get this demand during Season 5. Two-way-street or no-way-street IMO.
The lack of respect he shows everytime he hits Sam I could go on.I not really going to stop someone seeing things the way they want but you claim its a two way street and yes it is .Sam trusts Dean and shown belief in him .We can all take something one of them says and claim he is treating him stupid and showing a lack of respect.
I am not going to try and change anybody's mind about
Sam it would be futile anyway but respect is something Sam does have if some think he doesnt alway's treat Dean with respect or treats him dumber and dumber then thats their right but if we are going to go down that road then Dean doesnt always treat Sam with respect so where do we go with this ? blame Sam just look at Sam and point fingers at him .
Or do we look at both brothers in this relationship ?.
I can't change my gut reaction. It's the same with a romantic couple or any other relationship a fictional work presents. Either it works for you or it doesn't. This one doesn't anymore for me.
We could argue dialogue and scenes back and forth. In the end it is about what the show manages to convey to me. And what it doesn't.
Whatever Sam says it will be interpreted a certain way if he said the moon was rising he would be accused of arrogance it is the way it is.
I disagree with you naturally I think it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other with the brothers but we all see things differently.
I don't even have a problem with someone not liking the character. Everyone has their own favourites.
S&V was hard to take. I was left wondering if Sam respected Dean at all after that episode. Sadly, we got very little POV or reaction from Sam re: what he said so it was never really clear, to me, what motivated those harsh words.
I guess I look at Season 4 as Sam's own "ego trip." He was very arrogant in that season in some respects and very full of himself. He definitely thought he was stronger than Dean and a better hunter, but I don't believe those are consistent, regular thoughts Sam has. I understand you do, but I feel it was something that surfaced in Season 4 and even then, it was not consistent. The Sam begging his brother to tell him about Hell certainly respected Dean. That brother was crying along w/Dean when Dean recounted what happened to him in Hell. That guy was vastly different from S&V Sam.
To me, Sam had issues in Season 4. Stuff was going on w/him that was never fully explained or explored. I can't discount the demon blood, which acted as a drug and clearly had an effect on Sam. Some have speculated that the DB was influencing his thoughts/feelin gs, and that could be right. I also don't see too much of a problem w/Sam, in that moment, feeling stronger, better than Dean. That is very human to me. I do think by the season finale and even before, we see instances of Sam doubting himself and what he was doing. That "message" from Dean killed Sam for a lot of reasons. I think Sam was upset b/c he felt he had lost his brother's love and respect, and that their relationship was forever changed. At the end of the day, Sam thought he was making the right decisions but was wrong. It happens.
Season 4 aside, I do believe, overall, Sam respects Dean and doesn't think Dean is an idiot. My main reason for believing this is Sam is still w/Dean. If Sam thought Dean was an idiot, then I highly doubt he'd be traveling w/Dean or following Dean's lead as much as he does. Even Soulless Sam wanted Dean to come along w/him in EOMS. Sam knows his brother is smart. There's no doubt in my mind that he feels otherwise.
Sam also looks to Dean for guidance and advice. You don't do that w/someone you don't respect. If Sam thought Dean were dumber than dirt, he wouldn't care what Dean had to say, but that wasn't the case. In the first, second, and third seasons, Sam repeatedly looked to Dean for advice. Sam also wants Dean's respect. You can't want respect from someone you don't respect. I hate Fallen Idols, but in that episode, Sam asks Dean to treat him as an equal, right? Sam wanted to be equal to Dean, to rise up to Dean's level.
Yes, Sam may have jokingly teased Dean about reading certain literature, but I don't think he meant it in a negative or cruel way just like I don't think Dean intends to be cruel when teases Sam about being a geek or a nerd. It's just brothers teasing each other.
I think there is a lot of love, trust, and respect btw the brothers.
I think you shouldn't but it's actually very common from what I perceive in human interaction. It's a paradoxon in some ways but if you on some level look down on someone and yet perceive them to not fully respect you? It rankles even more.
So you want to change that, not in rising to that other person's level but in actuality get that acknowledgment that you are better and be treated accordingly. Get power in the relationship, if you will.
In terms of the brothers between Seasons 4 and 5 that is how I saw it and I saw Sam being validated by the narrative. A big "no-go" for me.
Also when it comes to consistency, Sam immediately becomes more "humble" if he thinks Dean is about to leave in some way, either leave-leave or dying or not caring about his life. I don't even think that is premeditated or mean-spirited but an instinctual response at this point. As soon as Dean is "secured" again, emotionally or physically, the attitude shifts again.
Sam did allow things to take control in season 4 in a bad way for the simple reason he was powerless to save Dean , he couldnt stop it for all his abilites he couldnt save Dean that day and it caused a wound that wouldnt stop bleeding until he stopped Lilth.
I will have to look at Fresh Blood and other episodes again to garner wether Sam becomes 'humble ' when Dean is going to leave in some way or he is faking his humbleness to lure Dean into some sort of false security in the relationship( that is not my Sam the one I have gotten to know ) .At the end of the day Dean wants to leave then no amount of humbleness from Sam would stop him but then it seems Dean is powerless in this relationship so maybe he cant?.Maybe Sam simply wanting a request of equality as turned into Sam wanting total power in said relationship and Dean is a mere casualty of that it seems to some.
The reality of it is noone has left for any amount of time and noone will leave for any amount of time onscreen because then the show would be over.
But onwards and upwards for the pair of them in season 8 and their relationship .
And they would both be pathetic LOSERS in my book. They are both far too old to be hanging w/each other but secretly miserable. There's nothing tying them together. They can go their separate ways if they choose!
I like to think Sam and Dean are not pathetic losers so I'll continue to believe they are fine w/each other and where they both want (and choose) to be.
I think Sam does respect Dean. I think he had issues w/Dean always following John's orders in Season 1, and I think that was largely b/c Sam thought Dean was smart enough and capable enough of making his own decisions. Sam didn't think Dean had to follow John's rules/laws. In Season 1, Sam seemed to be intent on getting Dean to take the lead and do his own thing regardless of what John wanted. In SW, Sam learns why Dean behaves the way he does and understands it.
I may be wrong but you have an extremely, IMO, negative opinion or perception of Sam so it's not very likely that we'll ever reach a place of understanding.
I don't see Sam as the type of person who is thinking to himself: "How dare this moron not give me the respect I'm due? He's an idiot, and I'm so much better than him. I'm going to demand that he respect me b/c I deserve it. Can you believe this idiot thinks he's better than me?
If I thought Sam was that type of person, I probably wouldn't be a fan. For the record, I don't believe either brother thinks he's better than the other - Season 4 aside where both they thought he was the better person for the mission.
As Sharon says below (or above), Sam's plea for equality in the relationship has more to do w/the parent-child dynamic Sam/Dean display than Sam wanting to lord some imaginary power over Dean. He wants to be treated like an equal, not a little brother. And that has nothing to do w/protecting or caring for each other if the other is in harm. Honestly, I've seen no real change in the relationship. What I see is Dean leading and Sam following. I really have no problem w/it to be honest w/you.
Again, you just have a really harsh view on Sam. The Sam you see is very manipulative if he "fakes" being concerned about Dean but honestly couldn't care less. The Sam you see is a sociopath! What purpose does it serve Sam to fake being interested in Dean's welfare, esp. when Dean rarely, if ever, opens up to Sam? If the Sam you see is so put off and exasperated w/his loser, idiot brother then why would he care if Dean leaves?
And yet STILL doesn't understand the extent of the damage or that Sam himslef has often added to it; which brother lied to the woman he supposedly loved for the extent of their entire relationship-ov er a year and a half-because he was following Dad's rule no. 1; and which brother couldn't lie after only 2 weeks because "it just didn't feel right" to lie to someone whom he loved?
*I* think Dean has been SHOWN to us as being stronger and more independent than even Sam thinks he is or has always been-and I further think that Sam has been SHOWN to us as often "projecting" his own feelings of inadequacy onto Dean with Dean just saying nothing and "accepting" Sam's skewed judgements as truth in this-the same as he'd done from childhood with John; and THIS has never been addressed by the writers as regards the brotherly bond even though, IMO, we've clearly been SHOWN it numerous times, series-long-Asy lum, Fallen Idols, S&V, and The Slice Girls being some of the more glaring examples of it. I often wonder if they're even aware of the fact that they have actually shown that to us, though.
Were you upset w/Sam for getting on Dean about telling Cassie the "big family secret?" Are you thinking he's a hypocrite for doing so b/c he's always encouraging Dean to not listen to John?
If so, all I can say is I dont' think human emotions are that black & white. Most people may falter on issues depending on the circumstances or be a stickler in one instance and not in another.
When Sam left for college (and John told him to never return), Sam left the hunting world behind completely. I'm not surprised he didn't tell Jessica about how he grew up or what his brother/father did for a living. Sam told Dean in the Pilot that he was done w/hunting. He indicated a desire to return to school once he and Dean found John and avenged their mother's and Jessica's deaths. In Season 1, Sam had no desire to hunt or be involved in that lifestyle. I dont' think his not telling Jessica aobut "hunting" had much to do w/John's "rules" and more to do w/Sam's discomfort in revealing his family business. I'm sure he never had any plans of telling her probably b/c he didn't want her to see him a freak or a weirdo.
I genuinely don't think he fakes his concern or his love. It is totally possible to love someone without respecting them. It is not ideal and I personally couldn't be in a relationship like that but that doesn't mean human emotion doesn't allow for it.
I also don't think Sam is a sociopath. Just that in the same way John's interaction with Dean in his formative years informed Dean's personality, I believe the same is true for Sam.
And John was an authoritarian leader, on some level to be expected because his hunting "partners" were children for the first few years. And in that partnership they had little to absolute no authority. So to me that is what Sam has internalized, if you don't have full authority, you have no power at all.
And while I also believe Sam's feelings for his father growing up were more complex - including more negativity than he ever had for his brother - he respected the man. Sam hated being on the powerless end of an authoritarian leader - like most would - but respected the man for it. Sure, it sounds paradox but again I can believe it.
Which is why I think Ruby playing the nice submissive when she got her way by subtly manipulating him fell on fertile ground.
None of all of the above I had much of a problem with. I was just entirely dismayed to see the handling of it all in Season 5, especially in the way they handled Dean in it. Like I said, for me, it was a "how not to" guide to redeeming a character. If at the very least they hadn't pinned it on Dean, I could have dealt with it better. Much better.
Recently, in Season 7 for example, apart from the stupid Amy fiasco that was pointless on every level and Slice Girls where the attitude bugged me all to hell, I thought the brotherly interaction and working together was non-offensive. They felt like more or less effective partners, colleagues - the minus a brain came in more because Bobby handfed them every single case. Or the resident guest star of the week.
If they do or don't feel personally close anymore isn't so much a concern for me because that part of the relationship is gone and buried after the handling in Season 5. I can't accept or root for it anymore.
I think will just have to agree to disagree on season 5 because we see Sam in that season COMPLETELY and TOTALLY different. And I can't think of one moment where the blame for the apocalypse was pinned on Dean. Even though he actually did break the first seal, not one person beside Dean EVER brought it up that season or any season since. At worst in Fallen Idols (and again that was definitely not my interpretation) Sam was blaming him for a disconnect in their relationship. He NEVER placed any of the blame for Lucifer on Dean at any point, not even in S4 when he was at his worst. So I'm not sure where that is coming from.
So for breaking the seal? I could blame Sam for stupidity maybe but I never once thought he needed to be redeemed for the apocalypse.
However what he did need redemption for in my opinion was the arrogant attitude in Season 4. THAT wasn't adressed or redeemed in any way whatsoever that I could get behind.
Maybe that seems like a small, unimportant matter to others in light of thing but for me it was the absolutely and only important thing. So when I say I perceive the blame fell all on Dean, that is what I'm talking about. I saw Season 5 as a validation of my problem with Sam in Season 4 (and in smaller meassures before that).
I guess if you've never liked Sam, it may be more difficult. I understand your problem w/the the "redemption," but what can we do. We don't write the show so the stuff we wanted addressed will never be addressed.
No one blamed who really should have been blamed: the angels. The angels jump started the Apocalypse, but everyone forgot that. At first both boys were blamed, and then it was just all on Sam. Sam said it himself in SS: he let Lucifer out and now he has to put him back in.
The angels should have taken a share in the blame as well. However, both boys made their choices, and to deny that would be to deny free will. Did the boys take more than their share of the blame? Absolutely, in both Dean and Sam's cases. They were both manipulated, but they both owned their own choices and took responsibility (until Dean's arc on this mysteriously disappeared around PONR), and that, to me, is heroic.
Sam was a moron in Season 4 who fell for Ruby's tricks. If he had listened to Dean of trusted his own instincts, which told him to not trust Ruby, then none of this would have occurred. I can understand Sam blaming himself more than Dean. But for Sam's actions, the Apocalypse wouldn't have happened.
I do love (I'm being sarcastic) how Castiel never blamed himself, and he's the one who released Sam from the panic room! He and his kind are 95% at fault for the Apocalypse, and Sam is the other 5%.
Poor Sam was definitely preyed upon while he was at his lowest while Dean was in Hell. I definitely understood how he ended up in the place he was in in S4, and why he couldn't see it until it was too late. It wasn't fun to watch and it was hard at times to understand why Sam didn't listen to his instincts, Dean, or anyone else, but I do understand how it happened. He did make bad choices, and he definitely blamed himself for that and was determined to see it through.
The angels and demons definitely had their agendas and played their parts to perfection. I was able to feel sympathy for Castiel, who was trying to break millenia of obedience conditioning and made his own mistakes. (Though, let's be honest, he opened the panic room door, but walking through it and everything after that was Sam's choice.) He should have owned up to them, but in the end, he's a flawed character just like Sam and Dean. They all had their parts to play. The angel hierarchy and demon hierarchy spun their webs and in the end of S4, got what they wanted, with Sam, Dean, and Castiel all victims of their machinations and their own good intentions.
That's how I viewed Sam. Sam was incapable of making decisions so Dean and Bobby locked him away. They did that to protect him from himself. Castiel was aware of Sam's problem but still opened the door.
I'm not saying Sam isn't responsible for drinking demon blood or for hanging w/Ruby. I'm just saying he was not in the right frame of mind at that time. Dean was aware of that and took measures to take Sam out of the fight. I honestly think Dean was prepared to let Sam die before Sam continued in his behavior w/Ruby and the DB. Castiel undermined Dean's efforts to help his brother.
Sam was locked in a room from which he could not break free. Dean all but guaranteed that Sam would not fulfill his part of the destiny and Castiel screwed them all over.
What I'm saying is drug addicts don't make good decisions. I'm not absolving them of responsibility for their acts. I feel like I'm stating the obvious. Sam was locked up b/c Dean realized Sam couldn't make the right decisions. Castiel let Sam free and lo and behold Sam, the drug addict, made a bad decision.
I see a distinction there, but you may not.
Any blame on Dean is what really doesn't make sense because Dean had handled Sam like everyone said he should. Dean put Sam in a secure place but was sabotaged and then blamed by the same guy who sabotaged him. It's ridiculous!
Castiel does deserve blame for his actions, though I'm sure this ship has sailed by now. But I do feel that putting all blame on angels or demons robs Sam and Dean of their free will, because it makes all their choices, good or bad, essentially meaningless. I enjoy the fact that the boys stand up like the heroes they are and shoulder their responsibilitie s, even more than they should have, because they want to do what's right.
At the and of S4 he has gone too far to be able to make good decision. So, it's the responsibility of the sane. (Dean, Bobby, Cas) to care for him and make decision for him when he is unable to. Like when you lock up a crazy in a mental hospital so they don;t hurt others and themselves.
I'm tick that if Dean do something for Sam because Sam couldn't do it himself ppl get angry.
But I think it's moot placing a blame on an angel. They won't repent because they can't. If they do they'll just break
BUT he made the deal that landed him there. While I love him for the self-sacrificin g idiot that he is. He WAS basically trusting a demon, knowing that the YED had big plans. And he didn't know what those plans were.
Yeah he was out of his mind with grief. But so was Sam when Dean died and he didn't get a free pass on the show.
Just look at it this way. Sam was very likely in heaven. He was out of it. But because of Dean's actions he was pulled out of heaven and plopped back into this mess. Where he ended up making his moronic mistakes in trying to save the world. And wound up almost ending it. (and ultimately spent almost 200 years in the cage being tortured).
This same mistake lands Dean in hell where eventually he begins torturing breaking the first seal.
None of that would have happened if he'd left Sam in heaven. Of course there's no way he could have known that (although he did know there was a plan). But there is no way Sam could have known Lilith was the last seal (although he did know there was a plan). Sam did chose to do things he knew were wrong for the at least partially the right reasons. Dean chose to do something he knew was wrong -well because he was in FREAKING HELL.
Yeah Cas never taking responsibility pissed me off too. I think it is an angel thing of if you follow orders and destiny you are not making a mistake.
Cause it wasn't just the panic room thing. He had known for a while what the plan was for Sam. And when Dean has a moment of crisis he worked on getting Dean to say yes, instead telling him that Lilith is the last seal that starts the apocalypse. I fully belief if Sam had known what the consequences were he would have NEVER made that mistake. Demon blood or no demon blood.
Of course, I agree that Sam had no way to know Lilith was the last seal, even if he knew there was a plan. I further agree that if he had known, he wouldn't have killed her.
I think Castiel never taking responsibility is a character flaw. It could be contributed to his millenia of following orders and believing in destiny. In 5.22, he seemed to genuinely believe Dean and Sam would both be at peace at the end. It does not excuse him from keeping things from the boys, of course. But just like the boys, he made mistakes and ended up paying for them. When he did choose to do the right thing, he had to face consequences, like being blown up twice, losing his powers, and being cut off from his family.
Hey, possibly excepting the Castiel paragraph, we agree on something today!
I think it's hard for me to blame Dean b/c I saw his CRD as extremely self-sacrificin g. Dean had NO clue that any of this would occur. He thought his deal would be just like all the others he witnessed or knew about. He thought he was giving up his life for his brother. No, he didn't think of the effect it would have on Sam, but he was in such despair and grief when he made the deal. It was an impulsive act. He couldn't break it so he died. He was ripped apart by hellhounds. He was sent to hell. After 30 years of horrific torture, Dean finally decided to get off the rack. I just think it's harsh to blame him for actions taken while in Hell. And I hate that Dean actually blamed himself for succumbing to years of torture.
I think it's really hard for me to identify w/Sam's grief (and I love Sam) b/c it wasn't portrayed as well as Dean's. I think it was a mistake to start the show off w/him in a hotel room w/a naked Ruby. I know some time passed, but I don't think Sam's arc was told very well in Season 4.
That's JMO. No HATE from me though
See, I lean towards Dean, but I did identify with Sam's grief, in S3 in Mystery Spot and NRFTW, and in S4 in IKWYDLS. I never believed he was anything less than devestated by Dean's death. I can agree that it was a mistake to start in the hotel room with Ruby, but I always believed he missed Dean and clutched onto Ruby in a state of grief. I think his arc in S4 was much more sympathetic than S5, but of course, mileage varies.
Either here or in the Sam thread, I've gone on and on about me not really buying Sam ever speaking to Ruby again no matter how depressed or suicidal he was. I feel his arc w/her required a better set up - at least for me.
I honestly don't think Kripke needed Ruby or anyone else for Sam to "go darkside." Dean's death could have served as the catalyst for that transition. I'm not sure how Ruby could have been reintroduced. Why not have Sam meet another hunter named "Jenny" but who is actually Ruby or something? I don't know. I'm not a writer
I do think that they way they presented it was problematic.
I further agree that the Ruby arc probably would have worked better if the writers' strike/Dean really goes to Hell arc hadn't happened, and his involvement with her had been 1) continuous and 2) part of saving Dean from Hell. As it was, her disappearance/r eappearance from S3 to S4, especially in light of 3.16, is problematic. Once 3.16 happened, there really wasn't a way to reintroduce her that wasn't a problem, because if it was Ruby and Sam didn't know it he would have looked just as bad for getting played by her.
Maybe you're right and it would have been better for Sam have his darkside arc alone, without Ruby, because I'm not sure how much her involvement made things look any better for Sam. We are in agreement here, I think.
Willow from Buffy: The Vampire Slayer went "dark" on her own, and was fine. I think Sam could have done the same. Honestly, Sam never really went dark. Even though he used his powers, he used them to save people. He never had evil intent. Maybe he should have. Kripke could have done that whole Dean versus Sam thing he was setting up!
the reason I got hooked to supernatural in the first
place was because I initially saw some parallels. Later
I started to love SPN for what it is.
Coming to Luke being tempted by Palpatine, yes you
are right, but it was a for a very short period and
Luke gave in to his rage when his father Darth Vadar
made a comment about his sister Leia. Somehow I
did not think this was significant. Sam on the other
hand was on the dark path for months, in fact a
whole year if one counts the 4 months that Dean
Also I posit this, he was more likely to work with Ruby not another character because she had told that she knew how to get his power to work. And I'm not sure he would really blame Ruby, as we've seen he's much more likely to take all the guilt upon himself.
He saw it as his responsibility to save Dean. Dean had done whatever is necessary to save him, regardless of Sam's wishes, ie selling his soul. But Sam would likely feel guilty he hadn't done everything to save Dean, ie working with Ruby regardless of Dean's wishes. IMO he saw this as a failure on his part, not Ruby's.
Which is possibly how he justified to himself continuing to use his powers after Dean got back even though Dean was so adamantly opposed. He had already gone down the path of NOT using his powers and had lost Dean. He wouldn't want to make that "mistake" again. And Ruby knew how weak and vulnerable he would be after Dean's death and how to play on his fears about losing Dean even after he got back. She was one manipulative bitch. So I'm sure she told him how strong and powerful he was and how she was only trying to save lives and stop Lilith. If I didn't hate her so much, I would really admire her.
People make stupid decision to save the one they love. It's the LOVE that drives them. It's the LOVE Dean had for Sam that made him sell his soul eventhough he knew it was wrong.
Had it been Bobby who been in hell and Ruby whispering in his ear that Lilith is out to kill Bobby and and to drag him back to hell, Sam would think twice. Sam loved Bobby but not as much as he LOVED Dean. No one loves Dean better than Sam and no one Loves Sam better than Dean.
They love the other even more than they love themselves and they'll probably kill the whole world and start the apocalypse by themselves to save the other. It's the most beautiful love that I've ever seen on TV. It should be brilliant, and it's still, had the Demons and Angel not playing them. They are the ones that should be put to blame.
Sam and Dean are not guilty of anything except for loving each other too much. The Demons and Angles are jealous of them so they do everything in their power to break them. I can see that GOD/CHUCK/Whoev er is watching. Sam and Dean are God's champion for love heroes. He let the angels and demons have their play because He believes that Sam and Dean will pull true that their love however it makes them vulnerable also makes them stronger.
That's the gist that I get of this show and that's why I love them. So, guys please don't put the blame on them. Blame the Demons and Angels for their jealousy.
When I hear the line of Dante's which is my fav line 'You're the love that moves the sun and other stars' I wonder is there any love like that in the world? Now, I found it in Sam and Dean, and it's not necessary romantic love either.
Their love is the one that moves heaven and hell fighting for each other.
I just wanna way that if we count their mistakes there'll be no end. And at the end when we root to the source who will we blame?
For example, a woman slipped on her bathroom door because her daughter unfinished cleaning it up. She went outside because her son fell down the tree. Her son climbed up the tree because his sister told him to get her cat from up the tree. The cat was a gift from her grandfather, the fallen woman's husband..... and so on and so far until at the end they'll blame God.
It won't end. I just want this putting on blame to end. Sam and Dean are fucked up, yes. Will you sell your soul if your brother/sister died? Or will I? Perhaps not. But Sam and Dean are dependable to each other like that due to John's upbringing. Why is John like that? Because Marry died. Why Mary had to die? because she made a deal with a demon. So Azazel here is the biggest wrong. But Azazel works under lucifer order to find the true vessel he must do anything necessary. So Lucifer is in the wrong. But God put Lucifer in Hell. So God is in the wrong now?
It won't ever end. And there is nothing come out of it by putting blame on people. we don;t live backwards but forwards. Just let's not make the same mistake again.
Sam and Dean realize this.
Dean said, if he knew it would come like this the way he knew now that there's actually heaven. When Sam died perhaps he'll think twice before selling his soul. He would think that Sam would be in heaven and happy. But despite all pastor Jim's tutoring he didn't believe in heaven, didn't believe in God.
It makes Sam looks stupid. Yes, It doesn't have to be a demon who drove Sam to be in line with the demon plan. I mean the whole DB itself is moronic. The others psychic children don't have problem accessing their power and Sam was suppossed to be the strongest as he is the true vessel. Even Ruby said Sam didn't need a wing to fly, he had it all along. So with proper practice (like the kids in AHBL), Sam can kill Lilith even without DB. It was a mess.
Dean's whole speech to Sam's dead body was about how he let down Sam (and John) by not saving Sam. It had nothing to do w/how lonely Dean was going to be w/Sam gone. He was reflecting on how he spent his life taking care of Sam, and Sam was now dead. He didn't know what to do to fix it, it being Sam's death.
If Sam was resurrected and left Dean to go to college and never speak to Dean again, Dean would have been sad but happy b/c Sam would have been alive. Dean didn't want Sam back b/c he couldn't stand being alone. It was never about that. He couldn't stand Sam being dead.
He even confesses in 3.01 that he knew it was selfish but he couldn't have lived with Sam being dead. Dean never says he couldn't have lived w/o Sam. Dean can live w/o Sam. He's done it before and would do it again if Sam chose to leave.
I also think Dean's thinking that he shouldn't even be alive also came into play when he made the deal. He even told Bobby that he shouldn't be there, and that saving Sam meant his life finally meant something.
So, I respectfully disagree that Dean made the deal for selfish reasons. That's just my take on it though.
Anyway, in both cases, there was something they did that they knew to be wrong that led to the breaking of the seals.
I honestly think Dean was simply devastated by Sam's death and decided to make a CRD to bring him back. Dean expected to get 10 years out of the deal, not 1. When he made the deal, I don't think he was thinking about how he didn't want to be the only Winchester left alive. I think he was more focused on this idea that he had failed both John and Sam and wanted to fix the fact that Sam was dead.
For some odd reason, I also think Dean thought Sam was emotionally stronger than him and would be able to move on from his death. I'm not sure if those thoughts were in Dean's mind when he was headed to the crossroads though. Those type of thoughts may have come later and could have been how he tried to justify the deal in his mind.
EDITED TO ADD: Sometimes its harder to be left behind than to be the one who died. I think once Dean got over his fear of death, he felt cheated that John had stolen his way out and left him with the responsibility of dealing with Sam's demon issues.
So S4 Sam is moron twice. Could be due to the addictive value of DB. I blame Kripke and the writers here.
It's a demon. How evil can you get. They are liars, The live in Hell, They were souls of sinners. Their one true agenda is to drag humans to hell. I think it's true with Supernatural world too. (Repo Man)
Castiel never blame himself because he is not human. Like Anna and Dean's conversation implied that Angels don't know guilt. I can dismiss Cas because he is not human. He is just a species.
SPN has shown you have to risk big (working with demons) if you want to gain big (ending the Apocalypse, bring Sam back from the dead etc). All people do irrational things which can be deemed 'moronic' in times of desperation so I find it does quite a disservice to the characters to simply call them 'morons' without giving consideration as to why Sam (and Dean and Castiel) decided to work with demons in the first place.
I'm not calling anyone a moron, because show has literally given the boys no other options but to ally with evil to get things done. Most of the time it does backfire, so I'm personally hoping this year the writers do something different.
I was just disappointed that Sam trusted her too much. Even willing to drink blood because of it.
Chuck said "Drinking Blood. You gotta know that's wrong, right?"
Treat all demons with wary, that's all I'm asking. If Sam works with Ruby but not trusting her too much, I won't have a problem. The reason S4 is so troublesome for me is just that. The whole demon blood is a stupid way of making the plot forward. Where is in between those drunk episodes of Sam that he suddenly thinks 'hmmm I think I'm gonna drink a demon's blood. Let's see how it taste' Sam gotta know that's wrong. But he did it anyway.
Like sacrificing babies for a ritual. I don't think the mother will forgive you just because you succeeded in bringing back (insert important person here).
What I'm saying is... Sam gotta know that's wrong. He had a high moral value. So where was on the way from the end of S3 and the beginning of S4 he began to slide? I'm just not satisfied by the way the writer/Kripke wrote Sam.
When Ruby approached him, Sam should be wary. Should give her the third degree at least. Even Meg complained to being treated like the third class citizen by Dean. Crowley said, 'Oh no don't trust me'
That's how you treat demons, ppl. Works with them, ok, but don't trust them.
What I call moronic is the trusting of Demon. Trusting them so that you're happily drinking their blood. I'm not saying about Not working with them. Use them by all means. Kill them afterward if you can. What Sam did was fucks (excuse my language) her and drinks her blood. Bobby had had precautions when dealing with Cowley, he's desperate but wary. All of them post S4 always dealing with Demons with red alert ringing in their head. I guess they've learn the mistakes from Sam.
What I'm trying to say, in which probably I didn't write it in the right way so that you miss my meaning is Sam should know that there's a hidden agenda there.
When Ruby said that she can help him save Dean, Sam should say "what's in it for you, then? I donâ€™t trust you, why dâ€™you wanna help me? "
When Ruby said that she was once human, Sam should say "but you went to hell because you deserve it. You practiced black magic to kill people. Or you just denied it and claimed that you forget? and you ask me to believe that your heart is pure and you help me out of your kindheartedness . The reason you fell to hell clearly shown that you shouldn't be trusted."
When Ruby said she just want to kill Lilith, Sam should say "Find, show me your card. Then I'll see if you're backstabbing me. If you said about doing dark ritual or any kind I'll be the one who slid your throat first."
When Dean went to hell and Ruby approached him, Sam should say â€œYou lied to me. And all of that shit you said about saving Dean in the end is your way to get close to me, right? Dean said that you said thereâ€™s no way to save him. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
â€œBut Sam you can get revenge by getting stronger to kill Lilith. Here drink my demonic blood and have sex with me.â€
â€œI will have my revenge but not in your way. Drinking your demonic blood? Youâ€™ll turn me to darkside? Do you think Iâ€™m that stupid? (apparently Sam is stupid, the writer wrote him that way) Have sex with you? Iâ€™ll have sex with Madison ten times over than with you!â€
That's the attitude that I wanna see from Sam. But I guess the Sam from S1-S3 is too trusting on people (demon). Too doey eyed and too softhearted.
I guess Sam first drink Demon blood after he had sex with Ruby? perhaps she got spell on him. By having sex with her, she somehow leading him by her nether region. And I hate to see Sam like that. I hate the writers to write Sam like that. "Oh yes, Ruby, yes I'll drink your blood. As long as you let me bone you I'll happily drink your blood, just let me have sex please." (makes me wanna puke)
All of your examples above didn't mention about drinking Demon Blood at all. So, I gotta ask, Tim, what's your opinion about it? And please don't use other examples as your answer And please don't use IF , if you can..
The subject of my comment above is TRUSTING Demon, FALLING for Demon's trick, but you reply with WORKING with demons. I get what you're trying to do here, TIM D: There's no word that says TRUSTING in your comment. You and I clearly talking about different things and you don't mention Demon Blood at all.
I think you know what I mean and just playing around with me. Are you deliberately twisting my words or you're just teasing me?
And I do apologise. I didnâ€™t realise the work â€˜ifâ€™ offended so you so much. Had I known it would provoke such a violent reaction and derogatory comment from you Iâ€™d never have used it.
Quote: What exactly was I trying to do, kaj? There was no word that says TRUSTING in your original comment either so itâ€™s rather difficult to know what the subject of your comment was. With all due respect, Iâ€™m not a goddamn mind reader. If you want people to know the subject of your comment, perhaps you should state what it is.
Quote: Itâ€™s actually not obligatory on this forum (or any forum) to respond to every single word a commenter uses. You mentioned â€˜falling for a demons tricksâ€™, that was what I addressed. Every single time a Winchester works with a demon they are both trusting it and falling for its tricks, because every time they do it, they do it because they believe there will be a benefit to it. So whether it be demon blood, or crossroads deals, or getting their blood to kill a Leviathan, they are â€˜falling for its tricksâ€™ ergo, by your argument both Sam and Dean have been 'morons' since season 2, the first time they dealt with a demon.
Quote: If I knew what you meant Iâ€™d have addressed it, kaj, why the hell wouldnâ€™t I? Iâ€™m neither teasing you nor deliberately twisting your words and Iâ€™m hugely offended (and quite frankly, beyond fucking pissed) that you consider that I have. Do you believe that I have some sort of an issue with you that warrants your accusing me of such a thing? I used the words that you used in your post so really kaj, I have no idea what your problem is with what I posted.
Secondly, I realize that we view things differently and I stand by my opinion on things. I too donâ€™t want to change your opinion on things; youâ€™re free to have different opinion as I am free to voice my opinion. I donâ€™t have hard feelings for you and I donâ€™t wanna fight. This is not the place.
Thirdly, my first comment above it as an agreement with lala2â€™s comment.
Quote:I agree with what she said about demon blood plotline. I agree that that plot in the show was a mess. I also agree with what she said that Samâ€™s story in S4 should have been handled better.
I wish the writer never choose that road to write Sam. Maybe you can understand Samâ€™s reason. But for me, whatever Samâ€™s reasoning to drink demon blood doesnâ€™t make it right. I consider demon blood is like drugs and drugs are bad.
Lots of teenagers fall for it for sooo many reasons. They blame so many bad things that happen in their life for their reasoning to use drugs. But still drugs are bad. No matter what their reason is, no matter what, drugs are still bad.
This is why S4 falls short for me. They shouldnâ€™t write it like that. Chuckâ€™s words still ringing in my ears â€œyou gotta know thatâ€™s wrong, rightâ€ Sam gotta know thatâ€™s wrong but the writers and in extension Kripke made Sam do it anyway. Why?
You are free to disagree, Tim, and I respect your opinion for it. My only problem is about drinking demon blood. Sam drinks demon blood because Ruby told him to gain power. The moment Ruby told Sam to drink demon blood, there should be alarm bell going off in Samâ€™s head. Itâ€™s just my theory that Ruby somehow use sex to lure Sam, perhaps she put spell on him when they have sex for the first time. But others may disagree or perhaps ignore my theory. Itâ€™s ok. But just like lala2 said it was a mistake to start the episode off w/him in a hotel room w/a naked Ruby. That scene itself made me curious about the nature of Rubyâ€™s seduction. Why would the writer put that scene in there? To imply that the sex between Sam and Ruby is somehow important to be told? So, there must be something in that intimate scene that the writer use to move forward the plot. There must be something in the â€˜intimateâ€™ act itself that help Samâ€™s slide to darkness. Sam's story arc was not told very well in Season 4.
Maybe you find my respond is volatile and harsh in regards to Samâ€™s characterizatio n above (with the examples of dialogues) and Iâ€™m sorry for that.
Thatâ€™s just how I see the writer wrote Sam in S4. Not to mention that I really hate Ruby with a passion so maybe my hatred on her is translated harshly and volatile on page. But Iâ€™m hating a demon, I donâ€™t think thereâ€™s something wrong with hating a demon too harsh or too volatile. Please donâ€™t think itâ€™s an aversion towards you or your comment. I found your other comment is interesting and I often found myself agreeing with your comments. I guess in this problem, we just disagree. Itâ€™s ok.
The writers made Sam looks stupid. I have that impression because of the way they wrote it. Obviously Sam is just a character and he talks and moves because the writer wrote the story for him but the whole demon blood fiasco shouldnâ€™t be there. It should stop when Azazel died. I donâ€™t know how the writers of S4 forgot that Ava could master her power so fast without drinking any demon blood. (I think she never drank demon blood). So, I never understand why they felt the need to reintroduce demon blood and making it as an addictive substance not unlike drugs in S4.
The demon blood plot line will always baffled me and I will always think itâ€™s a â€œstupidâ€ way of developing plot. In the end, Sam accused Ruby that she poisoned him. Then Ruby called Sam â€˜dumboâ€™ for believing her. She said Sam had it all along and didnâ€™t need demon blood in any way to be stronger. I mostly blame the writers here. Sam should be smart, right? Why couldnâ€™t they make Sam remembering what Ava said and contradicted it to what Ruby said about gaining more power by drinking demon blood? Why couldnâ€™t they make Sam use his intelligence to assimilate Rubyâ€™s lies and find fault in it? In the end, Rubyâ€™s words and Avaâ€™s words has similar meaning. That Sam never needed demon blood and that he had it all along. Sam is the true vessel so logically he is much stronger than Ava. Sam should know about this. The writers should not neglect Samâ€™s intelligence in his character when they write Sam's scene.
So, I stand by my opinion that the whole demon blood fiasco is â€œmoronâ€. The writer made Sam a moron. Just because of that, it makes me retreat back to S3 because it all started there.
The price that Sam expected, and was willing to pay, was that drinking blood turned him into a monster. In a rewatch, I noticed how we have ghouls/monsters drinking Sam's blood in Jump the Shark, and in the very next episode we see Sam drinking (in a ghoulish fashion) the blood of a demon. The writers intended a connection. And if you don't think that Sam cared that he was being turned into a blood-drinking monster, think about the rage that Sam flew into in When the Levee Breaks when Dean called him a monster. The reward Sam thought he was getting was the strength to make a meaningful difference in his and Dean's fight against Lilith and in stopping the Apocalypse so that Dean wouldn't have to carry it all alone.
The characters have all expected there to be a price to pay when working with a demon, but demons have been shown to present one smaller price, and then do a bait and switch so that the price turns out to be something much bigger. Mary did it. She thought YED would ask something of her, not that he would turn her child into a monster and set in motion a plan to have her children start the apocalypse. Dean did it. He thought the price was his life and his soul. He didn't realize going to hell would lead to him breaking the first seal to let Lucifer out. John did it. He thought the price was his life and his soul, but YED had the same plans for John (the first seal) as he had for Dean. And Bobby did it. He thought he was loaning his soul to Crowley. He didn't expect that Crowley wouldn't let him out of the deal if they stopped the Apocalypse.
At this point if Sam and Dean continue to keep making deals with demons than I'll agree that they're stupid, but at the time Sam started drinking blood he didn't know about the bigger costs (that Mary had made a deal, that Dean and John had been targeted by YED to break the first seal).
I have a problem w/not knowing. I know some have said they don't need to see everything, but in this instance, I did. It was very hard for me to reconcile in my mind b/c I couldn't come up w/a legit reason for anything Sam did in Season 4. None of it made sense to me. Depression didn't answer it. Guilt didn't answer it. Revenge didn't answer it.
So, I, personally, needed to see how Ruby introduced the DB, why Sam chose to do it, what he was thinking he'd accomplish by it, etc. We got none of that b/c Kripke wanted to "surprise" the audience.
We had Sam making the most idiotic, IMO, of decisions in Season 4 all b/c Kripke wanted to continue the Ruby story he didn't get to complete in the 3rd season. I could understand a Sam willing to go dark or become a monster to save his brother from an eternity in Hell. I don't quite understand a Sam willing to go dark or become a monster when his brother is alive, healthy, and for the most part, well. It doesn't track in my mind.
Like I said, I loved Season 4 when it aired. I still enjoy that season but I must admit that, in retrospect, Sam's character was done quite a disservice w/that season. Everything he did was shrouded in mystery. He was aligned w/evil and demons, and it was really hard to support his actions. He was drinking demon blood and sleeping w/a demon. Who could get behind that or support that as positive actions to take?
I don't have a problem w/Sam making mistakes. I would have been fine w/Sam "going darkside" on his own. I just feel Ruby was unneccessary after Season 3. I just don't see the Sam I watched for three years listening to Ruby in Season 4 no matter how depressed he was. She had lied to him, and he knew that in NRFTW. Why would he even speak to her again? And since Kripke didn't bother to tell that part of the story AND I couldn't come up w/a good reason for it, Sam, essentially, behaved like a moron, IMO, for almost all of Season 4.
But I don't hate Sam. I never have. It was just really bad writing, IMO. Sam's journey to the point where he was willing to fall for Ruby's tricks was severely neglected in the storytelling. And, FOR ME, a few scenes in IKWYDLS was insufficient.
Quote:In this I'm a bit more flexible. Sometimes, a hint is enough for me BUT in this matter what we saw Sam did in IKWYDLS is just he was drunk, meeting Ruby, not shown that he was hostile at her because she had deceived him in regards to â€œSaving Deanâ€ lies but only because she possessed a living. Then, the sex scene. (Ruby was possessing a dead body, so, double ewww) Why that scene was put there I donâ€™t even know. Does that showing Sam cannot get a living human girl, and opted to have it with a demon? I donâ€™t get it. If they wanted to show that Sam began to descend to darkside (by having a go at a demon) that didnâ€™t have a base at all. What happened to Sam from the end of NRFTW to IKWYDLS, which presumably only happened in 2 months since it was told in flashback? (Perhaps others can straighten me out in the timeline)
Quote: Yes, again I agree. Lotâ€™s of people said that S4 is the best in writing but the way they handled Samâ€™s plotline is vague at best.
Quote: Ditto. I was digesting this many times trying to find a plausible reason why â€¦ One thing that come to mind because Ruby probably said that Lilith is out there to kill Dean. Well, ok â€¦ thatâ€™s sort of makes senseâ€¦ but itâ€™s just in my imagination since weâ€™re not shown that. Not even in passing not even a hint in dialogue.
Quote:Wowâ€¦ lala2 itâ€™s like you read my mind, girl! Samâ€™s reasoning is weak. Sam is supposed to be smart. He has the power of deductive reasoning in solving a case and had used it in previous seasons. But, alas the writer choose to write Deanâ€™s dialogue like this â€œWell, now the smarter brother is back.â€ I know itâ€™s just brotherly banter. Iâ€™m not taking Deanâ€™s jab as a jab to Samâ€™s intelligent personally. BUT, again, but in lieu of the next episodes when they showed Samâ€™s bad decisions I canâ€™t help but wonder perhaps, perhaps, this is what the writerâ€™s mean in putting that jab in LR that somehow between NRFTW and the start of S4 Sam lost his brain somewhere.
Yes, the knife kills people and Samâ€™s power killed the demon not the possessed human. I still think Sam can get strong WITHOUT drinking demon blood. That had been proven by Ava and Ava was not the strongest of them all. IF Sam smart he could deduct from that fact and use his research ability, maybe interrogating demons to get the rest of information. Torture Ruby, by all mean, please. Sheâ€™s wearing a dead meatsuit anyway. When Ruby start suggesting DB Sam should get suspicious and, I donâ€™t know, get a drop on her, tied her to a chair, torture her for more info since she claim to be oh-so-knowledgeable on the matter. She might be not telling but hey, Iâ€™d be happy to see it.
Quote: Yes. I love Sam. He had many good qualities but somehow the writers forget that. Thatâ€™s why I feel the need to defend his character.
Again, Sam is just a character and itâ€™s the writerâ€™s responsibility to take care of his characterizatio n. Theyâ€™re the only ones who get to write Sam. None of us, even though how much we love Sam, get to write him.
Although, I know lotâ€™s of fanfic writers who wrote a better Sam. This is just my opinion.
I am with Tim in the fact that i don't think it is moronic to partner with Demons and also that i understand Sam's motivations about why he did what he did.The responsibility of showing that properly was with the showrunners and they failed.In the episode the man who could be the king they did with Cas what they should have done with Sam too.Do i grudge them giving Cas the platform what they did not give Sam ?No...but i think they should have given Sam the same opportunity..wh at they did with Sam in i know what you did last summer was too little too late.Show runners have the ability to make majority of the viewers sympathetic or hate any character (main or supporting) ,they did the former in cas's case and latter in case of Sam's ..at least from my side i understand why Sam did what he did ..So i know sam was not a moron when he drank Demon blood...At that moment he tried everything there was to try the good way (whereas Dean was flippant (or at least appeared) about himself going to hell Sam was not ...he was trying to break Dean's deal ...he does not have a life he can go back to after Dean's death..Bobby himself was incapable to reach out to Sam ( and i don't think Bobby could as i belong to the group who believe Sam was not as close to Bobby at that moment as Dean was)...all he had was despair till ruby appeared and then revenge...
So, yes I could smell something rotten in Ruby's character even since that episode. In the end when Dean cornered Ruby and asked her if there really a way to save him from hell and Ruby said no, at that time I fully distrust her.
I don't know. I can smell her lies. I knew that she lied when she said she still remembered being human that she only help them because she wanted Sam to win against Lilith. Something didn't add up at the time and I kept screaming at Sam on screen "Don't trust her, Sam" too bad Sam didn't hear me hehehe ...
Ruby was a demon worshiper when she was alive, a witch. I did not trust her ever since that episode.
Oh and about Bobby. I think it's odd that if Bobby was incapable of reaching out to Sam but a demon can. This is Bobby, the boys knew him from they were kids and on the other side, a demon who they only met a year ago, that Bobby and probably other hunters repeatedly told them that Demon lies. I'm not sure how to take on that way of storytelling. I'm afraid of the implication that arises from that.
I don't think Sam sees Dean as dumb at all. Yeah at times has looked surprised when Dean does research or read something. But Dean has said himself that hates research and he was too busy having sex in high school to read. And like Painted Wolf quoted below Sam's actually said he has looked up to Dean and tried to be like him since he was 4. That's way more than Dean has ever said. And Sam has always been much more willing to listen to Dean's opinion than vice versa.
In Seasons 1 and 2 I liked Sam's character well enough but there were lots of times (not just with Dean) when I went "oh boy, if you gave me that smug tone/look, I'd feel compelled to smack the crap out of you". It was my main stickling point with the character.
Season 4 took that to new heights, Season 5 didn't adress it in any way I could get behind.
As for "looking up to Dean", it's not what I got from the flachbacks. I think in that situation and trying to reach his brother, adult!Sam looked through rose-tinted glasses.
I know for most it's all but it was a spell/mindwhamm y/whatnot but I see these occurences more like someone who only tells you how they really feel while drunk. Sober, they feel bad about it and don't want to hurt your feelings but it's of course still there.
And Dean also has given Sam a "I admired you" speech in Scarecrow as well.
In terms of how apparently Dean is so much meaner/worse, again, it's the vibe. The brothers Salvatore on Vampire Diaries have done and said some reprehensible things to each other, way more than either brother Winchester ever did. At times, I was convinced they downright hated each others guts but I didn't question their respect for each other.
I can't explain it any differently than that.
I don't see why Sam would have ever told Dean he looked up to him if it wasn't true. He could have just as easily made that argument without saying that. Maybe that's just the way I take it, but why would you even admit something like that if you didn't mean it? And if Sam has such a low opinion of Dean, why would he have even tried to reach Dean in the first place, and beg him to be his brother again? It doesn't make sense to me in any way other than he actually meant what he said.
And if Sam has such a low opinion of Dean, why would he have even tried to reach Dean in the first place, and beg him to be his brother again?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Sam thinks Dean is the lowest piece of filfth imaginable, just that he believes him clearly inferior to him, Sam. As for why he would want him around? Because he loves him. I don't question that, I just don't think it goes hand in hand with respect in the way I think someone should be respected.
There is a significant distinction in my eyes.
Again I think were just going to have to agree to disagree. You have interpreted Sam's character and personality and actions so differently than I have, I don't see us coming to a meeting of the minds.
There is a wide variety of ways to interact with people. I'd say I'm not "mean" to most people in my life but I'm not looking up to a lot of them either. The middle ground or neither/in-betw een is the largest part IMO.
I remember watching that episode, remembering that speech of "always looking up to you" and bursting out laughing.
I looked up to my sister but I was bitchy as hell to her most of the time at that age. Same with my dad.
There's a Mark Twain quote that I think of when I want to knock one of my nieces or nephew up side the head. "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." Slightly off topic but it always makes me laugh.
I guess my point is that just because someone, esp a teen, is not following someone around and hanging on their every word, does not mean they don't respect and admire that person or that they're not processing the info.
And if that boy said "I always looked up to you, dad", I would also chortle in disbelief because obviously as a teen he didn't.
Which isn't a big deal if a teenager doesn't but then making a speech later on how you always, always looked up to a person and wanted to be just like them? I'd say "oh, come on, remember reality as it was".
To me that just made me laugh. They're teens, and that's such a kid way to respond.
There's another couple of back-to-back scenes in the episode in which the two are introduced to their respective classes. Their teachers ask each of them if there is something they would like to say, and Dean responds, "Not really sweetheart." Sam responds "Not really." Young Sam is mimicking Dean's mannerisms! That's a sign that despite what he says, he looks up to his big brother.
Sam was a teenager we have all been one of those .I dont believe he did anything wrong in that episode and never will
On that flashback? No. I wasn't particularly a fan of it but there were about 3.5 years of show that came before it and the character was well established at this point.
I'm basing my opinion on his persona, as it comes across to me, in the show as a whole. Just as I do Dean. And while Dean has a personality that would also rub me wrong in some ways, it is simply much more so with Sam. Combined with the writing choices that have been made for either character, what they have "gotten" in terms of story, how they were writting in it and also how they are performed, I come down in Dean's favour whereas Sam has become a character that will probably always rub me the wrong way big time. Unless they made seriously different writing choices than in the last three years and I realistically don't expect that.
That's fine and good to know.
I feel like the Sam Sasha sees is vey manipulative, deceptive, sociopathic, and all-aroudn awful person. We clearly see Sam differently so there's no point, IMO, in discussing Sam.
But I don't consider him a sociopath. Holmes in the BBC show Sherlock is way more of a sociopath for example.
He would never have been a fave character of mine but I was perfectly okay with him in the early years.
As for fastforwarding, no prob, have been doing that a lot with this show in the last few years.
Personally I'm not a Dean fan but I do recognise the good things in him like loyalty, loving, caring, heroic. Same as I see Sam.
However I have a big problem with what is to me extreme Mary Sue writing for the character. I feel like I get beat over the head with how wonderful and perfect he is at everything and how every single mistake he ever made is someone else's fault or for supernatural reason he couldn't control.
As it was later established Dean was to blame for being bossy and mean - so Sam waiting for forgiveness was martyrdom and Dean not giving it made him even "meaner" - and had to repent his bad, bad ways. Sam graciously accepted it and being right in that he was the one and only who could save the world. And if Dean had fallen in line like a good flunky during Season 4, everything would have been alright.
Meanwhile as gets pointed out over and over when Dean says "mean" things and punches Sam he is not under the influence or possessed or whatnot that would make it "not really him". When HE made the deal and went to hell, it was purely selfish. When Sam went to hell, it was heroic and altruistic to save the world. Dean's hell was also fun and happy compared to Sam's. And so on and so forth.
Don't get me wrong, I think the writing for either characte sucks but Sue-dom is just a tad bit more horrible to me than whatever Dean gets.
Overall, I like the writing for the show and I am not a Sam or a Dean fan. I love them both equally, for different reasons.
And Dean's mistakes?
I'll leave the deal out of the debate because even though that was the one and only time I personally hated the character for something and didn't have the slightest smidgen of sympathy for him, I'll allow that it has been presented with enough backstory to probably elicit sympathy.
However since then, where have Dean's "excuses" and "justifications " have been? The only "reason" he might have been given is being generally depressed. And that alone gets him critized as an irritating whiner who needs to get over it already. So I hardly call it being given a sympathetic reason.
For Sam, I can not name you a single mistake or flaw of his own the show that I didn't feel the narrative attributed to someone or something else.
I love both boys. I love Sam a little more, if only because so many people decide to repeat over and over how horrible he is, so he needs more defending. But even if someone doesn't care for Dean, that is how they see the show. This isn't the Dean show, no matter how much people want it to be. It is a show about Dean AND Sam. When it stops being that, I will leave. Until then how can you not be a fan of whichever brother is not really appropriate. People like who they like.
You say you don't think Sam is manipulative or sociopathic but he has to be w/the way you view him. Everything he says is not to be trusted or believed. He deceives and manipulates. No wonder you don't like the character.
You and I see him very differently - so differently that we may as well just part ways.
I don't think he was shown as "overtly admiring" of his brother in ANY episode. I don't make it all about ASS.
However, since that speech in Fresh Blood harkened back a lot to their growing up, I brought up the flashbacks as an example on how I felt the show was "tell" vs. "show" for me.
Everything he says is not to be trusted or believed. He deceives and manipulates.
I didn't say I found his speech in Fresh Blood willfully deceitful. I genuinely don't think he lied for the hell of it. In fact I phrased it as "looking back with rose-tinted glasses".
In that moment, he wanted to make a point and for me this sentiment and how he came across was no different than say most people only saying nice things about deseases family members. Because that is what they (chose to) remember. You don't remember (or dwell) on all the moments you think that was a jerk. Probably not even if you hated them and butted heads with them most of the time. After a loved one's death, people often re-write history in their minds and everything suddenly was Lollypopland.
That is what I think, in essence, Sam was doing.
I don't know. I've been reading a lot of comments here lately about how Sam supposedly sees his brother as some kind of dumber, second class human, and doesn't respect him and I'm afraid that's not the way I've ever seen it. Yes, he teases, and yes he's said some hurtful things, but he's not the only one guilty in that regard.
I keep going back to what happened when Sam told Dean his plan to say yes to Lucifer. Dean basically said "no freaking way" and Sam said "ok". He backed down, and I can't remember them even mentioning again until Dean gave Sam his blessing to do it. If Sam didn't respect Dean or his opinion, he wouldn't have even dicussed it with Dean, just went and done it. At least, that's the way I see it
I know the flashbacks are small blurbs of their lifes and I don't expect anyone was even remembering that speech in the writing of that (or any other) episode.
However, that is "tell" vs. "show" for me. This being a fictional world where you only got to see glimpses and I already have a hard time genuinely being convinced of what a character says in terms of show, if I never see it outrightly shown, then the narrative failed to convince me overall.
If Dean had said he always liked flirting growing up or Sam had said he always liked reading growing up and yet no flashback ever had shown them do it, I still wouldn't have questioned the validity of either statement because it's well enough established as it is.
When Sam said he looked up to his brother and wanted to be just like him, I, like I said, assumed he mostly in that moment was viewing the past with seriously rose-tinted glasses. I also assumed that if that ever really DID take place, then it was when Sam was quite young and he grew out of it.
Then when I watched ASS, my assessment was that he had grown out of it clearly by the time he was 14 already.
So the speech was in some way hyperbolic. Which isn't even something unusual considering why and when he said it. Most people would probably use hyperbole.
We can all be guilty of rose tinted glasses but in this instance it was a case of what you saw is exactly what you got nothing more nothing less .I know very well the glasses you see Sam through but some scenes dont need any more put on them than exactly what that scene is saying.
For you. Not for me. I don't have to have the same reactions and opinions about scenes. And neither one of our respective viewpoints is undisputed fact.
I honestly get the impression that a lot of people didnt like who Dean was back then and just cant admit it so they blame the writers for getting the characteristics wrong.
I liked teen Dean, he was realistic. Dean but also a teenager.
I didn't think he was a pathetic loser who yelled "I'm a hero" all over the place because of course in all his life growing up, moving around and always being the new kid, he had NEVER before encountered being mocked and ridiculed.
It has also been established that at the point of ASS he had made his choice somewhat on the hunting life. And furthermore it has been established that he was both more mature in some areas than his age while in others more immature. Curiously I ONLY saw the latter in this episode, with no maturity whatsoever to speak of. The kid in both the Christmas ep as well as the Shtriga ep came off ten times the guy teen!Dean was. And the progression shouldn't have been quite this backwards.
I'll allow for some acting pitfalls, though. The actor tried but Dean on paper can often comes across as a shallow, one-dimensional jerk and I felt Jensen's fortÃ© lies in softening that writing, make the character seem a lot deeper. Brock Kelly copied some mannerisms but he couldn't do that.
As for the writing with the teen versions, they wanted to tell a simplistic story that started off in a certain place and ended with Dean the zero (getting his comeuppance) and Sam the hero. So nope, I don't consider it particularly good writing.
The only trope they managed to subvert was having the bully become the bullied and not play it for laughs. That might have been the most successful moment of the episode for me--recognizing that bullies are sometimes people with their own issues, not just cardboard cut-outs labeled villain.
Like Sasha, I find it very hard to believe that D & L weren't writing a distinct contrast in how Sam and Dean were ultimately viewed within their flashbacks. Juxtaposing Dean yelling in the hallway (further agreed that the Dean from AVSC was shown to be more level-headed and mature) with Sam marching proudly down the hallway having just beaten his nemesis--if they weren't making a statement then they might must make them completely unaware of what they're writing.
Granted, Brock Kelly didn't have the rascal charm that Jensen can put in a line to turn it from jerk to Dean, but I don't think that excuses the writing completely.
In my view, this was an episode that was meant to make a statement, and if they intended to give us cliches showing the brothers in divergent lights they were successful. If they didn't intend that, then they failed hard. But again, perception varies, so others might have seen it differently.
In a comment further above you say you aren't a fan of the character and list all the negative attributes you see in him so to be honest I'm not surprised you consider a total loser version of him accurate either.
But just because other people see it differently doesn't mean they don't want to see the reality of how sucky the character is. I could say the same about fans of other characters.
Do I consider what accurate? The Teen!Dean as presented in ASS? Nope. I don't believe "total loser" does the character justice, teen version or not.
As for the "reality" part, I meant to put that in quotes, like this. I wanted to express other people don't have to buy into the so-called "reality" of that depiction.
In terms of it being a TV show, they only give us glimpses of their lifes, choosing what they are going to show. And this might be the only depiction of their teen years we'll ever get. So of course it stands as some template for "how it's been back then".
If we had other flashback that showed a more well-rounded picture and in which teen!Dean was allowed some positive traits - unless you consider it accurate he didn't/doesn't have them - the picture wouldn't be quite so one-sidedly bad.
Ebony, you're walking a fine line here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and no one is ever wrong about it. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean your opinion is right and someone else's is wrong. Please be respectful. Several of your comments have already been edited, so you need to tread carefully here.
They are brothers!
This does not mean that I agree with your belief that Sam thinks that Dean is dumber or that Dean is actually dumber. That is something which I really don't know the answer to.
If Sam has mocked Dean for being dumb a couple of times, that does not necessarily mean he disrespects Dean or actually thinks he is dumb (intelligence is of different kinds). And like Sharon says Dean has also said some things which were a little mean. That doesn't mean that Dean does not respect Sam.
Honestly, I don't. If I seriously think of someone as dumb - and I don't mean educated here or well-read or anything, that doesn't meassure intelligence at all - then I have little to no respect for them.
In fact, someone who believes and acts that education does equal intelligence and that accumulated knowledge makes them smarter than someone because of that? That to me is a sign of utter dumbness and I have no respect whatsoever for them.
In any case even if someone is truly dumb I can respect them because what I respect in people the most is bravery and humanity.
"In fact, I thought it was you who was equating the two, but well, you are not, so good, I was mistaken."
But god forbid anyone ever suggest Dean can do anything better than Sam- whether it be have street smarts, be more of a leader or be a better hunter. Sam already has such a unique place on the show- why should Dean's only unique contribution be limited to "he's more family oriented?" While that's important, this is a show about 2 hunters of the supernatural and not just a family melodrama. And it's not supposed to be just "what's Sam's is Sam's" and "what's Dean's is Dean and Sam's." Dean should be better at something- that's just life.
I know it's a little ranty but this is a touchy subject for me.
Yes, I think Dean has been written as being more family-oriented than Sam. And by that, I don't mean that it's his only role in life to take care of his brother. And I don't see being family-oriented as a negative trait. Back in season 1, while Sam and John both were becoming obsessed with revenge, Dean was the one who grounded them and made them realize what they still had. Dean is the one who has had a chance to be a father for a short time (to Ben), something Sam has never experienced. I don't see that as a horrible curse on Dean.
Quote:Agreed (and I never said it was a negative trait either.) But that's a personal quality, just like wanting to be independent is for Sam. Those are important parts of what makes the characters who they are. They're not, however, relevant to the discussion of skills needed for hunting.
But there's something Dean is given that Sam is not: the charm, the social skills. Everybody in the series is attracted to Dean in a way they're not to Sam at all. They're not equal on that, and it's an important skill.
I'm not callling it emotional inteligence, because if they both lack any kind of smartness, that's it. But Dean knows his way around people, and even when he's being a bit obnoxious or rude, most characters are drawn to Dean.
I also think Dean is more mechanically talented - not just in keeping the wheels running - but in gerryrigging the EMF reader, and if I remember correctly, coming up with the idea for shooting salt rocks.
But I don't understand why there's such a big need for some people for Dean to be the better hunter, or the leader. Their hunts are such a big part of this show, that if the writers did introduce a significant difference in hunting competence or make one clearly the leader, it would throw off the whole dynamics of this relationship.
They might also accomplish this another way, though(and again, IMO)-by this time around making DEAN, The Chosen One of the new myth-arc; and the one that the supernatural aspect of the story is most interested in as the centerpiece of the new nefariousness they have planned.
Jensen/Dean should not, IMO, be forced to give up the best and strongest part of Dean's series-long characterizatio n-nor even be forced by the writers to have to share it "equally" with Sam now(and again, IMO), just because Sam's Chosen One storyline has finaly reached it's conclusion and now HE needs something more and new-not unless they compensate Dean and Jensen and many of the Deanfans with an equally as interesting and exciting new storyline-and one that measures up well and fits in well with the main theme of the show and it's title-the supernatural.
Quote:The jury is still out on whether this best describes Sam or Dean.
Quote:And vica-versa, because Sam was written as an independent spirit. To turn him into a passive follower would kill his character. I disagree that Dean has been the leader over the past seven seasons. I think Dean has called the shots for as long as Sam has chosen to let Dean call the shots, but when Sam strongly disagrees, he pushes back or goes off and does his own thing.
Quote:I'm hoping for better for Dean than a lifetime of bossing Sam around.
Quote:... because sharing something equally is just wrong
IMO, the writers message and intent concerning Sam's "going off to do his own thing" w/o letting Dean in on the details of his leaving/absence , is that while it's understandable why he would feel that he had to do that-it's rarely and truly been the "right" thing to do, especially as he IS part of a "team" And I've NEVER seen Sam as a "passive" follower of anyone, not even in The Amy situation, nor did I say that I wanted that for him.
IDK, everything you've said just reinforces my feeling that perhaps the time HAS organically arrived in the storyboard for the brothers to hunt more separately, maybe even with each having a "team" of their own.
It's not wrong. But in that case, I'm hoping Dean's superpowers and mythical Chosen One destiny with his sole big hero moment will come in Season 8 then. Because why should only he share the good stuff?
Perfectly fine with me. If he gets the big plot driving arc, the special one and all the badass and wondermuffin scenes? My cup runneth over.
Dean doesn't like research. That's the difference between them. Sam likes to research and is good at it so why would Dean do it when he doesn't have to. We see Dean researching and doing his thing in Scarecrow.
We've seen Sam hunting alone and doing a good job of it. We saw that in MS, TBAI, and that Elliott Ness episode this year. And when you speak about hunting, are you referring to the actual "killing" of the monster? IMO, hunting is a two-step process. One must first find out what he/she is hunting and how it can be killed and then kill it. Maybe it's just me but I think both Sam and Dean are skilled in this area. Is your point that Dean is better at killing monsters? I think they both can get the job done. Yes, Dean has saved Sam numerous times over the years but Sam has saved him on occasion as well.
I know you may think I'm trying to begrudge Dean being better than Sam in some way but I'm honestly not. I've never compared their "hunting" skills and both seem competent and capable to me. I personally don't think one is better than the other.
Dean seems more physically strong than Sam. Whenever they fight, Dean manages to take Sam down. The only time Sam "won" was when he was high on DB.
It's just never been a competition for me. I think Dean is an awesome, great character. He's never been presented as "less than" Sam in my opinion. I don't need the show to say Dean is better in some way to find value in the character.
Sam was allowed by the writers to let all of his problems with the relationship out TO DEAN in Fallen Idols. Why would the writers not allow Dean to let it all out TO SAM at some point?-because Dean doesn't do "chick flick moments"or because he has to keep his "game-face" on for Sam? But then when was this issue of Dean's "resolved" if the brothers ARE a-okay again as the PTBs insist that they were and are? Did I miss the moment when Dean felt fully appeciated by Sam for all that he is and has done or was getting ready to do-as we saw for Sam from Dean in Swan Song before Sam took on Lucifer? Did I miss the moment when Dean learned again after his own hell experience that hunting IS truly his calling in life and that doing it makes him feel good, as we saw for Sam in Defending Your Life? Did I miss the moment when Dean learned that his brother wanted him by his side because of his expertise as a hunter, as much as Sam wanted/needed him there as a "safety net" and little else? Was it when Dean learned that his only real destiny and purpose in life and within the storyboard was to not let Sam down as Sam's destiny and real purpose in life was revealed to be the only one who was strong enough and capable enough of saving the world and all of humanity-and THIS was how Kripke's 5 season-long and supposedly always TWO!-lead epic story ended? But no, it didn't end and that and there was the rub, right?
Whatever. Huge disappointment in that ending notwithstanding , that story is over and done with now, replaced by a new two season-long problem and question in this Deanfan's mind-exactly WHEN are these writers going to allow us to finally see DEAN, as well as Sam, become "stronger and better" because of this supposedly re-forged-all-t o-the-better-fo r-BOTH!-brother s bond?
And I'm not saying Sam can't make his own decisions or forces Dean to "take care of him." I feel like Dean is a natural leader and often takes the lead. I see nothing wrong w/that. Dean will also follow Sam's lead on occasion. I think both boys treat each other like equal partners and respect each other.
I will never buy into this idea that any teasing or light joking Sam made of Dean reading a classic novel or knowing something is proof that Sam thinks Dean's an idiot. Sam has never thought Dean was stupid. If he did, I highly doubt he'd be following Dean's lead or looking to Dean for advice, guidance, etc. Even Soulless Sam followed Dean's lead. He definitely wouldn't have done that if he thought Dean were a fool or a moron.
Sam doesn't need to prove he's not a little kid anymore, he's past that now, and is confortable enough to allow Dean to take control.
I know it's just my read on their relationship, and could be interpreted differently.
Sam: "I've looked up to you since I was four years old, Dean. Studying you, trying to be just like you."
23 years of looking up to someone sounds like a whole lot of respect to me.
It seems to me that Sam mostly hated the hunting lifestyle Dean so eagerly embraced (see: After School Special) and that was a big reason why Sam left to go to college. He absolutely did not want to follow in Dean's footsteps by staying in the "family business" as Dean did.
Sam's goal was to be a lawyer and IMO, that is definitely NOT trying to be just like Dean.
Great post, Kelly! Sam wanting to be like his big brother is not confined to being a hunter. Dean is a really great person w/a big heart. He's brave, fearless. We know Sam saw him as "cool" from ASS. Dean genuinely cares about the safety of virtual strangers. Those are all qualities to admire, IMO.
In You Can't handle the Truth Dean said that Sam's not different, he's just more like him.
It's certain fans who haven't moved past Season 4 and likely never will.
And while in Season 6, there was an alibi "story" with Lisa and Ben - that they devoted about 10 minutes in total to - he really had nothing to do with the main storyline. Which in Season 6 was split between first half: Sam's story and second half: Cas' story. If Dean was there or not there had no bearing on either story.
The same happened pretty much in Season 7. The main story were the Leviathans and Dean didn't have an important part in that that would have given the character the opportunity to do something fresh, give him some new material to react to, to drive the plot forward.
In its place, during both Seasons, we got "angst" for the sake of it. Or, rather as a place-filler. Because if the actor is contracted (and they have to pay him), they are gonna put him on screen here and there. So on the very surface he needs to do something on screen.
That something was the same vague angst as the year before. No growth, no change, no momentum and the same "resolution" in terms of a few boohoo speeches and then dropping it. Which in itself is ridiculous to me.
Other characters look at him as weak and whiny (and has that particular character-bashi ng not been driven into the ground in the last four years it happened, writers?) and tell him to stop navel-gazing yet that is the only thing the writers will ever give him. While making him wrong for doing it. Nice.
Does that feel frustrating and lame? Sure. But to me it was never meant to be a real story. It was meant to pass the time between episodes that dealt with the actual story. They could have put on a test screen or used stock footage from Season 6 (or 2-5) for that and the main story wouldn't have changed. For a show with supposedly two leads, not even bothering to come up with a story for one is ultra-lame IMO.
Ironically, the only character that had a real storyline this Season was Bobby. Not that I cared about it much but he got more than either Dean or Sam in year 7.
Now the only thing that was even slightly interesting for the character were the last thirty seconds of the Season 7 Finale. By sending Dean to Purgatory, there is at least potential to do something new with him and, gosh golly, present him in a positive light for a change again.
To show him as a badass, knowledgeable, competent hunter without putdowns every five minutes, without boohoo speeches. And if he is now part of the story, part of the mystery and thus allowed to drive the plot? Would be fantastic in my eyes. Anything but vague angst.
But instead of seeing Dean work with Sam to help bring him through this, they basically just gave Sam's plight to Cas. Now some fans are saying Dean's so mean to Cas because he can't just hug him and forgive him that easy. WTH? Dean has a damn good reason to still be angry at Cas! I do hope somehow they can repair their friendship, but come on. In real life, don't you think it would take you a long time, if you were in Dean's shoes?
Basically, I feel, both characters and both actors were screwed in favor of supporting and guest stars. I love Bobby and Cas, and I liked Charlie but they shouldn't have been given precedence over Sam and Dean, ya know, THE MAIN CHARACTERS!
ALL of the characters, Dean included, have screwed up from time to time. I'll admit too that Dean has had more than his share of douchbag moments, even though I love him. But to blame him for what Cas did? You can still love Cas, again, I still do, and still admit that he is to blame here.
Let's try to make it harder for them to solve things. Let's try to remember they're family and had a bond like no other, that once saved the world.
I liked how Dean found a way to make Death cooperate, they could had made it a bit longer, but it's fine. I thought they'd try to think of something S7 when Sam's wall finally crumbled, but they chose the easy way of angel-fixing. Boooring.
And worse part? When Sam was going insane we at least got to see Pellegrino. Castiel is not even amusing. The naked covered in bees part was a bit pathetic and the character will end being a joke at this rate.
I'm mostly agreeing with you on everything, btw. Just ranting. Sorry.
So yeah, please, give Sam and Dean the important roles and storylines. Bring the supportive characters in when needed for that story. That's the logical way to do it.
When Sam's wall broke down I was at the end of my seat and wondering how they would fix it. But then I'm clearly unimpressed with the solution.
I like Castiel just fine but his reappearance was not at the proper place and the proper time. But maybe it was just to show that the writer choose the easy way by introducing deus ex machina or God's Hand. There's actually a theory in writing for that. When a writer got themselves in a corner the easiest way is to introduce a God's hand.
Like the Elder wand in Harry Potter verse. It's dumb move. But I can accept as it is only children books.
Supernatural is not children book right? They didn't hope to fool us like that right?
Does hair even grow there? Is there any razor? I bet there are lot's of knives and sharp tool in Dean's so many jacket pocket.
Are they even get tired? How will Dean eat? Is it like in Hell and Heaven that you don't need to eat f you don't want to.
When leviathan topside they are all VERY HUNGRY. I have the impressions that they don't eat much in Purgatory or not at all. Perhaps the monster there are just fight and fight not eating, not sleeping. If they are eating perhaps unsatisfactoril y unlike eating humans.
And I have watched Heart recently. Sam was not madly in love with Madison.
SS didn't hold any grudges agaisnt Dean for beating him down, not like he could anyway. I doubt the Real Sam would hold it against Dean either, so I guess Dean wasn't really bothered by it. He did try to make up w/Sam shortly after the incident. He was more upset by the lies and the Ruby betrayal. None of that was ever really addressed that I can recall.
I completely agree about Sam not being madly in love w/Madison. I really like Heart, but I can't believe he fell in love w/someone w/whom he only spent one day.
I haven't rewatched ATFAW, but I thought Sam was more telling Dean that he was okay and that Dean needed to care about himself more than Sam. I can't quite remember though.
The fact that Kripke didn't think it was a big deal doesn't hold a lot of water in my books. He admitted he identified with younger brother Sam and that bias clearly influenced a lot of how Kripke saw the brothers' relationship, with bossy, overbearing Dean who needed to learn to love his brother more and poor, misunderstood Sam, who just wanted respect. I've often wondered how things might have played out if Kripke hadn't based the story on his own life, hadn't played favorites and had seen the brothers' relationship in a more neutral light.
Both boys can be leaders when the situation needs it .And it is that that needs to be seen not the retro Dean leader and Sam shut your cakehole situation .I agree with some of the writing for both brothers have left alot to be desired not just Dean but in season 8 they need to give us back the Dean full of fight and spirit and one that can lead but isnt the leader. Both boys bring alot to the table it doesnt have to be either or .
To me, Dean is a natural leader, and I see a lot of people following his lead. It happened in GGY, Croatoan, the episode where Rufus died, episode where we learn Christian's a demon, AAH (episode where Jo and Ellen died), the entirety of The End. Dean leads. That's what he does, and people follow him. They look to him for guidance, including Sam. Sam still follows Dean's lead to this day.
Again, the difference, IMO, is that Dean doesn't assume they will always do what he says; he listens to Sam. I'm not saying there weren't instances of him doing this before, but it's more often now. A good leader, IMO, listens to those on his team. I still very much view Dean as the leader.
Was this Caged Heat? I felt he was presented as the least "leader"-ish guy in that entire episode. Soulless Sam, Samuel, Meg, Crowley - nearly everybody led their own way with Dean meekly walking along.
Again, the difference, IMO, is that Dean doesn't assume they will always do what he says; he listens to Sam.
To me he has always done that and not in any way less often than now. Someone has done a breakdown of which brother found which hunt/job in the first three or four Seasons and from Season 1 on it was equal, with even a slight favour to Sam.
Then while on the job, I never thought they didn't discuss options or Dean put down his word as law. They had disagreements sometimes but in these each one expected to get their way. Both of them.
Which is why n terms of the job, I never understood in the slightest why Sam considered it un-equal. He got his way when he wanted from Season 1 on. And when Dean didn't agree with him - which Sam is not entitled to in the name of equality - he went and did what he wanted anyway.
So just as I never saw Dean as the leader of them then, I don't see him that way now. Sam makes decisions on the job as much as Dean did. As much as he always has. And I don't think he "follows" Dean's lead in any measurable capacity.
I envision a clear leader-follower dynamic to look differently.
I don't think there is any question Dean was pretty bossy. But he has gotten better (so has she), that was part of the reason the Amy thing was so irritating. He says ok and then goes behind Sam's back to do it, because Dean knows best.
As I outlined, I completely disagree so I believe you can't state this as fact. It isn't one for me.
So, since I'm coming from this perspective, of course I see Dean as "having to learn to renounce his bossy ways" as totally obnoxious. Not to mention the more he is requested to toe the line, the more I see it as becoming imbalanced in his disfavour.
And while I thought the secret about Amy was pointless, I didn't have the slightest problem with Dean killing her per se. He has a right to make a different call than Sam and act on that.
He should have simply said so before to Sam. And then Sam could have decided if he wanted to try to stop it or if he couldn't hunt with Dean under these circumstances or whatever his response would have been.
However Dean was under no obligation to spare her because Sam felt like it. That is a decision Sam can make for himself and apparently he did. Whereas Dean came to a different decision.
In itself no problem. It was just that the writers wanted to wring pointless drama from it so they made it a secret.
As Kelly's sister said, Dean pretty much called the shots in the beginning. They did what Dean decided to do, and if Dean was insistent on doing something like responding to Becky's e-mail, Sam had to convince Dean to do it. Once Dean decided it was okay, they did it.
Dean is used to taking charge and making the decisions. He just is. Even in 6.02, Dean remarks, "Who died and made you boss" when Soulless Sam, very briskly, told Dean where to meet him. It was strange for Dean b/c Dean is used to calling the shots on where they go, etc.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Dean is wrong at all in how he behaved w/Sam; I'm just saying he is pretty much the leader. At least that's how I see it. I still do.
Oh, and I'm not talking about Caged Heat b/c you're right, SS really took charge in that episode. I think the reason we (or I) remember that is b/c it's very rare for Sam to take the charge the way he did in CH. I was talking about the episode w/the Alpha Vamp - maybe, it was called All in the Family or something. Dean told SS that SS needed to follow Dean's lead, and they snuck in to speak to the Alpha Vamp! Yes, Dean relinquished leadership to Samuel in the beginning but he re-established his role as a leader when the demons arrived. Dean has a very "take charge" kind of attitude, IMO. He was also "in charge," IMO, during the MOA episode.
I think Dean is a natural leader.
Dean has often followed Sam's lead on hunts and in descision making. Best examples Croatoan, There Will Be Blood so many more I just dont have time to list right now.
AAH was more of a group effort, but it was more from dean's POV which is why it often seems like Dean is more of the leader because thats how he sees himself. He thinks he's responsible for everything that happens to everyone. ie Jo becomin a hunter which is untrue if not a bit arrogant.
I think season 7 showed us that Sam and Dean and now totally on equal footing, its a partnership neither of them is the out right leader.
My guuess is Sam goes a long with Dean more often than not simply because a job is a job who cares who found it or decides to take it.
Sam may have to fight harder to get his way but that again is more to do with Dean being bossy, opinionated, obnouxious, selof righteous, big brother. If I were Sam I just go with the flow just to keep the peace. Also I'm not sure Sam really gives a crap.
How could that be if apparently they are so "equal" now? I guess Dean should get down on his knees and say "yes Sir" more? He does have a right to his own opinions, as well as voicing them. When Sam does the time and simply get his way (and I don't see him having to fight awfully hard for it), does this make him bossy, obnoxious and opinionated, too? Or is HE just his awesome natural leader-self then?
And Dean can be literally on his knees again.
I can hardly wait.
I don't feel so bad though the woman like 5'2" and she can intimidate or manipulate just about anyone, including the doctors where she works (and they totally love her) and you know about doctor's god complexes. But me, I'm on to her tricks-mostly. She can't pull that crap with me. LOL.
And to all those who think Sam has only Jodie and Garth, what about Martin, and the guy who became a prison warden? They're both still alive as far as we know right? Martin's brain might be fried, but he still seemed to have some hunter instincts left in him. And if Kevin somehow manages to escape from Crowley, I mean, it was clear he will have a role of some sort next season, so he's also a possible helpmate for Sam to find Dean and save him. All I know for sure is I damned well want it to be SAM who saves Dean. Alas, I'm afraid he'll end up being forced to work with Crowley somehow.
Anybody else think Dean is going to be somehow changed and tramatized when he returns? Either mentally, physically, or both?
I'd like to see him more of a hardass after being forced to fight for his survival in such a hostile environment. Hypervigilant, always coiled to strike, a fighter to be reckoned with, having accumulated some new skils and knowledge, possibly even something "extra" in a genre way.
In no way do I care for Deansel in distress - I don't mind if he can't walk himself out of Purgatory, there is no shame in not managing the impossible after all but no freezing up and being kicked out of the action in hunts - or another bout of the writers having mouthpiece characters going "look how he came back weak and whiny, how pathetic".
If they show him a bit darker, fine, but for once I want it displayed as strength and kickass, not "emotional trauma that diminished him".
I'm afraid after the utter horror that was 5.22 to me as well as the last two Seasons, I want kickass hunter Dean NOW. Not in some unspecified time in years to come.
Besides, they can do PTSD with an action component. Whenever they tried to do a "Sam is emotionally compromised" story, they always framed it in a somewhat positive "look at the badass" light. In the last few years with Dean they always took the "oh, look how he freezes and whines" route.
So I think it's time to hit another note with the character. In the early parts of Season 2 Dean was in emotional torment and that came out mostly through activeness, hunting or beating on the car nor emo moments beside the car. If I never see another one of those for Dean (and a "boohoo, suck it up, loser" speech three episodes later), it will still be too soon.
I don't see much negative there.
I'd be HAPPY if Dean got this much consideration.
You may not consider it not worth much but for me it's WAY better than what Dean has gotten in a long time. While, I'm guessing you feel the same in reverse.
Honestly, it really is almost like the forces of nature knew how tragic and sucky and miserable their lives would be, so they gave them their unbelievable good looks to help make it more bearable! LOL
I quite liked the idea of Jo and Dean because I loved Jo and thought she deserved Dean! I wonder if they will bring Lisa back. All the creators have to do is bring her memory back and viola! Dean has a ready-made family again.
I also want Sam and Dean to be recognized for their efforts to save the world, at least by some secret government agency. I know that sounds too much like X-Files, but I think this will give them a whole department of people they can organise and go into semi-retirement themselves to raise a family.
Then of course, he shows up again on her doorstep simply because he promised Sam that he would, not because of any real feelings for her, at least I didn't think so. I'm sure he would have come to love her during the time he was with her but, it all just seemed like a setup. Maybe if he did come across her again unexpectedly, and they really DID fall in love organically and naturally, then maybe, yes, I could see it.
For me, it means Dean kind of misses taking care of somebody, it's how he defined himself, what he's done all his life. He'd be a great father.
I admire her for accepting a broken man that didn't actually love her in her life, for a whole year, when Dean was starting to show having problmes with alcohol, was miserable and we know he did questionable things trying to find a way to save Sam from the cage.
But of course, I don't like domesticity and I don't have much hope for the show to have a happy ending, anyway, too much messed-up shit, boys too broken, too much baggage. But a 'they kept hunting and doing as always' ending with both brothers being at peace with themselves and each other would be good for me.
But I'm afraid that's as close to real love (in a traditional, romantic sense, of course)as he's gonna ever get.
No, Dean and Lisa were not very much in love, what I meant is that he must have grown to care for her a lot in the time they were together.
What do people mean/want when they talk about â€˜great loveâ€™? Is a â€˜great loveâ€™ one like John and Mary had, something that motivated over two decades of a quest for revenge? Except of course it then transpired that they argued a lot, he had left home and their love was coerced by angels? I donâ€™t see much great about that love.
Or is it the great love between Sam and Jessica, the one we saw nothing of but which we later found out was also coerced, this time by demons (Brady). We also know that Sam was far from truthful with her. We only got to see the idealistic (possibly fantasised) aspect of their love because Jessica only lasted an episode. Sam and Jessice could have had a Romeo & Juliet type love or a Homer & Marge or even a Kim Kardashian & Kris Humphries type love for all we know.
I believe that Dean did love Lisa and had he not gone to her in the circumstances he did (ie, had they rekindled their romance after Dean retired) then they would have had a long lasting relationship. The importance the show put on their relationship was long established. He remembered her from years ago in The Kids are Alright (and given the amount of women that the show suggests that Dean has slept with then it can't have been just the sex he remembered). She was what he dreamed of in 3.10. She was the one he went to in 99 Problems, he choose to stay with her and Ben in Exile on Main Street and had to be shoved out the door by Lisa (who evidently knew Dean better than he knew himself) to hunt in Two and a Half Men. He was still dreaming of her in The Third Man and he even went to them while in a vampire induced state in Twihard. He certainly loved her and Ben enough to go after them in Let it Bleed and also loved them enough to let them go in order to keep them safe. I really don't see much of a difference in the relationship between Sam & Jessica and Dean & Lisa.
Love is love, regardless of the when, where and why. It's the choices you make that make it a great, not how many flowers one gets the other or how long the courtship was. Dean and Lisa's love, while it might not have been given the time to be 'great', I feel it certainly was good and it definitely was real.
Can't agree on Lisa and Dean, sorry. We're told Dean's love was Cassy, by his own mouth. When he 'dreams' of a perfect life, all he sees is a imaginary girl that never existed, and he already knew Lisa by then (and Cassy!).
I just can't see it, maybe I'm biased, but in my mind, it was always Ben and not Lisa, and I must admit I find that much more interesting for Dean as a character.
Okay, okay, I think I've talked way too much about this!
I personally think he loved her and likely would have stayed with her under different circumstances. And maybe would have come to feel more intensely for her in the future, but I when he went to her she was a port in a storm. He was devastated by Sam's death and by everything he'd gone through. He wanted a family and she had a ready-made one right there. With a kid he was thought might be his. Which is when he started connecting her in his mind to a family of his own. It had more to do with Ben IMO than Lisa. But because she was kind, bendy and a good mother. He thought I would like to be apart of this.
During the year they were together he was still reeling from Sam and trying to save him and come to terms with his death all at once. His focus was still Sam, regardless of how much he cared for Lisa and Ben. Which was made quite evident when he took off with Sam as soon as he got back basically.
Cassie I don't think he really loved because they were together for like two weeks. And didn't even try to fight for her. I think her was extremely attracted to her and was starting to fall when their relationship ended. I think if he'd been truly in love then he would have tried harder.
We don't know what Sam's relationship with Jess was. Although they had been together for a while and didn't get together under nearly as dire circumstances and he continued to think of her and said he missed her in S5. So my best guess in they did have deeper relationship that Dean and Lisa, but it is just a guess.
But and I said this earlier the problem with them having almost any relationship on the show is the nature of the show itself. They drive around place to place doing a dangerous job that sometimes comes back on the other people in there lives. There's not a lot of time to build the relationship for the audience or the characters.
I think they would need someone like Jo who already in the life therefore already in danger and who can also meet them different places as they hunt. But it's hard to introduce people in on this show. Everytime a woman appears, it's like a flashing red light. POSSIBLE LOVE INTEREST. They did a good job with Jody, so it's possible.
Of course they still have to deal with the fans girls after all that. Poor Sam and Dean are never going to get any at this rate.
It was also implied in that episode that perhaps Dean hasn't always been as careful as you would think a man who's bedhopped as much as it's been implied would be. You would think he would always have a full pack of Trojans in his wallet at any given time. Maybe 'monster vaginal fluid' melted the rubber! But you think he would've have noticed.
It's a wonder then that they aren't a bunch of little Deans and Deannas running around somewhere. Of that Dean hasn't had any STDs. Well that we know of. Yeah I know, off topic, but it just popped into my head.
I liked that in the beginning they didn't make it into much of a negative thing. Normally on US shows a healthy sex drive is either a sign of a (semi)-evil character or of one who is too screwed up know any better.
Like enjoying casual sex with adult partners who want the same so noone gets hurt, in a transient life style no less, is some bad habit. It might not be my personal lifestyle but I've always said "more power to him".
I'd like to see some healthy balance between an HBO show and a network show (a hero doesn't have a libido, unless married) and simply goes with "if it's fun, sure why not".
I do agree with you that love is love, regardless of when, where or why. And I guess it is the romantic in us which wants to see the " flowers." It makes for a great drama doesn't it! And I am just longing to see Dean feel that! I want to see him go to a woman not because he needs her or a family, but because he can't get her out of his mind! There, that's the romantic in me talking!
Iâ€™ve no doubt there was love between Sam and Jessica but I do doubt, based on what we knew of the Sam Jessica relationship at the time, that the relationship would last, even taking the demon blood/Lucifer vessel out of the equation. By virtue of the fact that he kept so much from her, Jessica didnâ€™t know Sam. She only knew the Sam that Sam wanted Jessica to know. Sam didnâ€™t trust Jessica (or the strength of their relationship?) enough to tell her the truth about himself, his family and his life.
What Sam knew about relationships growing up he learned from Dean, John or books, so it really is no surprise that he was completely unrealistic about what he believed a true, romantic relationship was because he had never known one. Given how Dean reacted when Sam mentioned his mother in Pilot and the fact that Sam knew little of Mary, I doubt the John Mary relationship was openly discussed in the Winchester house. Add to that, Dean didn't do relationships. According to the YED, Sam had been looking at engagement rings yet at that time Jessica knew next to nothing about Sam's life prior to Stanford. How can a relationship be considered monumental in those circumstances?
Quote: Like Dean could not get Lisa out of his mind? Over two years passed between Dream a Little Dream of Me and 99 Problems, so she was definitely on his mind and he didnâ€™t need her or a family back then. I donâ€™t think the circumstances in which people meet matter, but what they do after which makes it romantic and monumental. My 17 year old brotherâ€™s girlfriend fell pregnant after theyâ€™d been going out for about six weeks. 13 years and two more children later, theyâ€™re happily married and going strong. Had she not gotten pregnant then would they still be together? Highly unlikely. Iâ€™d consider that a great love but it wasnâ€™t built on great drama or great gestures. The romance was also there but it was secondary to the relationship itself.
Flowers and whatnot do make for great drama but that does not necessarily make for great love. Romeo & Juliet had great romantic drama in their relationship, and it turned Romeo into a murderer and eventually led to both of their suicides. Dean has had the great drama in his life, both romantic and otherwise so I'm glad he got to experience a relationship with someone who could give him stability, trust, understanding and acceptance. I feel it earned it.
Honestly, no, I donâ€™t think that John and Maryâ€™s relationship would have lasted the long run (and not just because John is still yearning for me......) and yes, there are huge similarities between John & Maryâ€™s and Sam & Jessicaâ€™s relationships.
In My Bloody Valentine it was established that John and Mary were only brought together by the angels, and that prior to that they couldnâ€™t stand each other. Dark Side of the Moon showed us that John and Mary had frequent and memorable fights, the timing of which I find quite significant. You would assume that the news of a new arrival would only serve to bring a family closer together yet some time between Samâ€™s conception and Dean's memory in Dark Side of the Moon (when Sam was not long born) relations between John and Mary had broken down to such an extent that John had moved out of the house.
So what on earth happened in that time and why? Could it be a case that the natural animosity between John and Mary was so strong that not even angels could keep them together? Could it be that the angels stopped working the mojo on John and Mary after they fulfilled their purpose (creating two vessels) and that without that influence then they went back to how they were pre mojo?
Either way, I find it hard to envisage John and Mary lasting the distance.
I don't really place too much emphasis on the cupid angel aspect of them getting together, so I guess I just assumed that once a couple is marked the angels didn't have anything more to do with it.
The timing of the temporary seperation is thought provoking. I would dearly love to know what happened but I don't think we're ever going to find out so we'll just have to use our own imaginations. Mary and John seemed pretty solid in the pilot episode so I figured that whatever it was, they managed to get past it.
But then I'm a happy endings sort of gal!
I see your point. But I also believe that Sam and Jessica could've had a shot, if taken out the demon plans. Hunting is just something he didn't want to do anymore, and I'm sure that telling someone about that is going to make them think you're insane. How can you tell someone something like that when to most people in the population it's total make belief? But why would you even tell someone that? That monsters are real. Would it make you feel safe? Would it make you live your life more free? I think this is the same reason John and Dean kept Sam in the dark as a kid, to make him feel safe. To have that innocence. So no, I can't hold it against him. And I don't see it as him not beeing himself just because he didn't say that killed monsters and ghouls and such. He was still Sam.
And not to toot my own horn or anything (yeah right ;) ) but I met my husband when I was 15, just about to turn 16. We were together for 13 years before we had kids, and we've been married for 7 years now, together over 14 years total. Now, at the time, did I think that I had met the love of my life? No! I was a 16 for heavens sake! But I did love him lots, and as time passed I learned that I love him more and more. And the became the "one". (I hate that saying). It's not always about the age, it's about the people. Patience, tolerance, loyalty, love. And possibly fate plays some factor if you want to believe in things like that. I'd like to think that we were meant to be. Time will tell.
But meaning, that I think Sam and Jess could've had a shot. I believe they could've had something, a marriage, a life together even. Most likely even introducing Dean and/or John to her in some way. Honestly, there would've been some secrets but in this case I believe, I'm not too hard on him for keeping hunting a secret when clearly it was something he wasn't interested in doing. And the danger factor. And he could've told her sometime later. And they could've gotten over it. Maybe :) We don't know. But I'd like to think that she felt for him the same way he did and she did seem like the understanding type. But that was season 1 Sam. Could he, later, might have felt the urge to get back to hunting? We'll never know, but I think it might've been possible. And I'd like to think he wouldn't have just done that behind her back. But if he never wanted to do it, then I'm all for not telling her.
With Dean and Lisa, I never really "felt" what they had, but I'm sure that they loved each other and had a nice family (eventually anyways) and had Sam not come back, they could've gone to an even better place. He did seem to care about them. His drinking was the only iffy part for me, but I'm sure with time, he could've got to a place where he didn't have to drink so much. Ben did look up to him, in mind. But I don't pen that on him as much as on Lisa. But blah blah aside, they could've worked out too. And since B&L knew about hunting, it would've been a bit easier since Dean allready showed signs that he was hunt-hungry before Sam came back, so he could've done some hunts if need be and not lie about it.
But personally, SPN in mind, I like the unattached and on the road :)
I donâ€™t think Sam would have had a relationship with a complete dunderhead so Jessica was fairly intelligent. How long before she started questioning, and demanding, answers about Samâ€™s family? How long before she would no longer be content to be fobbed off? How long before she started looking to meet Samâ€™s family? How could a relationship last if Sam insisted on keeping 18 years of his life to himself? And the longer it goes, the more lies Sam would have needed to tell in order to keep up the facade.
The other thing is, monsters and whatnot were not going to stay away just because Sam wanted them to. (Did Sam still keep weapons and salt around the place? I need to rewatch the Pilot.) What happened if there was a hunt in or around Stanford? Would he ignore it or would he take it? Given who Sam is, I don't think he could just stand idly by and see innocent people get killed when he could do something about it so I feel he'd go hunting. How would he then explain it to Jessica when he came back bruised and bloody? The tragic thing is, I dare say that Jessica would have loved that uber proactive, protective side of Sam (who wouldnâ€™t!) but he never gave her the chance to see it.
As we saw in A Very Supernatural Christmas, Sam knew how much it hurt to be kept in the dark about hunting, and it shaped a lot of how he felt and acted after that. He learned at the age of 8 that being ignorant didnâ€™t mean being safe. And another huge difference between mini Sam and Jessica is that Jessica wasnâ€™t a child. She was an adult involved in an adult relationship and all it entails.
Yes, I get that he wanted her to feel safe but thereâ€™s a difference between feeling safe and being safe. I donâ€™t think Jessica could be safe while being kept in the dark.
Quote: You big toothead, you!!
I know itâ€™s not about age, and Iâ€™ve known plenty of people who met young and were in long lasting relationships. But again, the difference between those guys and Sam and Jessica is that because they met so young, they grew up together, and they knew all about each other. Jessica only knew what Sam wanted her to know. Imagine if you found out something huge about Mr. Super ie he has a secret second family out there somewhere and he didnâ€™t tell you because he wanted to protect you (actually, Supernarttu, thereâ€™s something Iâ€™ve been meaning to tell you.......), how strong would the relationship be after that? What if he didnâ€™t tell you anything about the first 16 years of his life, or he told you and you later found out he was lying?
Quote: So if Mr. Super was part of the Finnish mob in his youth (actually, that'd be kinda cool) and he killed people, you wouldn't want to know about it if he didn't plan to get back into it again?
Could Sam and Jessica have had a life and a marriage etc? Of course. However, until such time as Sam told her about his life and his family then it wouldnâ€™t be a marriage built on trust. The thing is, Supernarrtu, I feel that the secret was just too damn big. He wasnâ€™t keeping her in the dark about secretly dying his hair or being a closet Sex and the City fan (though Iâ€™d rather hear about the monsters than that), Samâ€™s secret was huge, and the longer he kept it from her the more detrimental to their relationship it was going to be. When Jessica found out (and itâ€™s SPN, she was going to find out) how could she ever trust Sam again?
Quote: Dean definitely could have hunted if he wanted to and Lisa certainly didnâ€™t seem to mind it. She was the one who encouraged him to try the dual life. However, to me, that idea could only have worked because Lisa knew the whole of Dean. She knew about his past, she had seen him in action, she knew how much his past affected him and also how much it made him the man he is today (or back then, whenever). However, I donâ€™t think their relationship would have worked if he were not honest with her. Hell, he didnâ€™t tell her about being a vampire and it did play a part in ending their relationship.
I just didn't see that he had any reason to tell, yet atlest. There hadn't been any signs that she was in trouble or that even he was (except the dreams but they, they were just dreams at that point), so again, why tell her something so upsetting. So that she would freak out at every sound and have nightmares and "what ifs" for the rest of her life, if it wasn't even really necessary? I wouldn't put that on some, just in the name of honesty. Sometimes you tell the truth for you, not for them.
And I don't think that just by keeping this family business a secret, and a family that he had been kicked out of, that he would've been keeping quiet for years and years. He was still upset about his family, that was clear in season 1. So talking about them, about painful childhood memories, is never on the list of "things gotta share", unless it's vital. There are still things he could've told her about his childhood that didn't involve hunting. About all the times that he complained about his childhood, he hardly ever (or never) talked about hunting per se. More on the lines "We moved around a lot/Dad left us alone on christmas/I never got to play soccer/Dean always did what dad said/I always felt out of place in my own family" -those were not about hunting, even though it was a factor. He could've easily told her about those memories from his childhood (just replace "dad was out hunting a wendigo" with "dad was out selling shoes or shit"). Also I'm very sure he would've had to at some point share something, since the whole "mystery" thing about someone is only cool and exciting for a certain time.
And since they were together about 1Â½ years, there were still many times he could've told her about it later (had they got to that). I didn't know a whole lot about hubby when we'd been together for that time ( I had to squeeze things out of him, when it got to a point when he wasn't really caring and sharing a lot, I think it's a guy thing). I don't think that there's this timeline you're supposed to tell everything or it's considered a betrayal of sorts. And certainly not about something dangerous and certainly traumatizing (did Sam take it well that monsters were real??! The kid was a mess. "If they can get to mom, they can get to dad. If they can get to dad, they can get to us!" Goodbye safety.)
And let's face it, Sam did not have a normal childhood, Jes did. Sam did have inklings that something was off since he knew that this was not normal. Jes didn't have a clue from day 1 that monsters were real. Had Sam lived in a normal neighbourhood with neighbours and friends and all, he wouldn't have been so prone to suspect why was dad away so much. So I think in the end he just ended up hating hunting more than anything, and since it seemed to him that it was a nro 1 priority to John (and not them), he ended up hating him too. Because of the hunting, not because he was lied to. I'm sure he understood why they did it (later on anyway) but he just couldn't figure out 'why' they did it, he was a pre-teen/teen/y oung adult and wanted something different for himself. Something different for all of them. That's not a bad thing, to want your family be safe.
Heh. Had my hubster been in the mob? Well, that would be quite shocking (*hee*) and would induce a lot of fights I bet, but I'd keep in mind that some things are kept from you because it's safer not knowing. It's a two edged blade thing. Would I want to know the truth? Yes. But would it really make a difference what he did in the past if he was out and wanted to make a new life for himself because the old life was very dangerous? Could I be upset about that as much as had there been another woman in his life? Both lies yes, but from a very different circustance. If he did it to actually protect me, then I'd agree that it would be best to be kept in the dark. How could he be protecting me, had he another family out there? To keep my heart from breaking? Well, I'd take the "not getting killed" over the "cheating bastard" -bit secrecy a whole lot better. If he had another family, that wouldn't make him such a good person now would it? And the only one he'd be protecting, would be his own ass. I can't compare. There are two sides of these things ofcourse, but it's just a matter of "when/if we get to that, we'll deal with it. Or not". It's all about the "why", not the lie itself, sometimes atleast.
I agree a lot on Dean & Lisa front. But to me, they were together out of a promise made and a woman wanting her kid to have a dad-figure. I'm sure that started to turn into something more, but it was a very bad timing indeed. And since Lisa showed how she really felt in the Veritas eppie, she definitely had "some" resentment she had kept from him for some time. So did they really have something "real" if he didn't see all that coming? And did she really feel that strongly or was it just emphasized by the spell (or what ever it was)? We'll never know. So, on the paper, they would've worked for me, but on the screen, it felt a little forced. And that vampire thing was just bizarre since she knew about supernatural, so it wouldn't have really been that big of a shock (about them being real), she was way more upset that Dean showed Ben and didn't really have a "reason" for it (which was dumb, not telling her about why he'd done it). And it was dumb of him to go there, to put them at risk like that, but I'd figure, they did that just to gain some drama more than actually thinking what Dean'd really do. Not just creepily stalk in to the bedroom and then freak out. Well, there was the whole "vampire" -thing cramping his style so I'll give him that much.
Wow. Let's talk next week when you've finished reading this
So I'm not taking that as "a reality, had Mary lived".
Sam was very much in love with Jessica! We even see him dreaming about her in the 5th season. As you said, I don't think his hesitance or resistance to tell her about his childhood indicated that he didn't trust her; it says more about Sam's own insecurities, etc. And like you said, Sam left the hunting lifestyle behind so I can see why he never talked about it. He never embraced it and didn't want to be apart of it.
I also agree that Dean never loved Lisa. Dean remembered Lisa because he had a great night (or weekend) of sex with her. That's all. He looked her up in the hopes that they could have another great night (or weekend) of sex. It's not like he remembered her wonderful personality and great heart. He couldn't have because he didn't know her.
That's why her inclusion that Season 5 made no sense to me. How could Lisa and Ben be what Dean thinks of when he's happy when he doesn't know her? How could Lisa invite Dean into her home to live when she doesn't know him? Their entire relationship rang false to me. It was contrived and forced.
The reason I mentioned Sam's dream of Jessica in FTBYAM is b/c some others seemed to express disbelief or uncertainty that Sam loved Jessica b/c of the demons getting them together. I don't think Brady's introducing them had anything to do w/them ultimately falling in love w/each other. They seem very solid in the Pilot, and there's nothing to suggest that Jessica and Sam don't really love each other.
To me, the fact that Lucifer knew the best way to get Sam to open up was through Jessica says a lot about Sam's feelings for her. The fact that dream "Jessica" could make Sam feel bad says that Sam really loved her and cared about her opinion of him. I liked the consistency of using Jessica in FTBYAM. That was Sam's one true love. As Pentadactyl said, Sam spoke to her as if he were really conversing w/her. Five years later and Jessica is still the woman on Sam's mind; she's still the one that can "get" to him.
Dean's dream of Lisa in DALDOM had nothing, IMO, to do with Dean "loving" Lisa. That was the year that Dean was set to die. I think Dean was doing a lot of reflection on his life and how he would was never going ot have a family. Plus in that first episode w/Lisa, we see Dean thinking, or assuming, that Ben may be his son. I think Dean liked the idea quite a bit and was sad when Lisa told him it wasn't true. Dean liked Ben and thought he was a nice kid. The dream in DALDOM shows us what Dean wants: a family. Did he want family w/Lisa? Sure, but I still don't think it shows he loves her. I can't forget that Dean never really knew her. Even in the first episode where Lisa appears, Dean spends more time w/Ben than Lisa. To me, the dream symbolized a desire Dean has to have a family w/someone like Lisa, not necessarily her.
The next time we see Dean dream is in Season 4, and it's not about Lisa. Actually, I think we see him dream twice in that season - once about strippers and the next was him fishing on the lake. Now, I'm not saying every time they show Dean dreaming, it must be of Ben/Lisa, but we went basically a year and a half or almost two years w/no mention of Lisa until that wacky episode where Dean went to her door. No dialogue that they had been keeping in touch or that Dean visited on occasion, making his statement about her and Ben being his "happy" place contrived and forced to me.
We do see him dreaming of her in 6.02, I believe. By then, Dean has lived w/Lisa for one year so I do think he cares about her and Ben. I just don't think he was ever "in love" w/her. When "Sam" returned, Dean was quickly set to ditch Lisa/Ben. Lisa even knew that so she tried to guilt trip him into staying b/c of Ben. Dean does stay but why? Because something came after L/B, and now, Dean felt obligated to remain w/them to keep them safe. Dean says that to "Sam" in EOMS. I never got the sense Dean was staying b/c he loved them. He only went to them b/c Sam made him promise to go to them.
The Dean/Lisa affair is just extremely contrived, forced, and poorly written, IMO. At the end of the day, I think Dean cared about her, but that's it. I don't think he was ever in love with her.
Quote:And re: Sam with Jessica
Quote: To me, here we have the exact same criteria in almost identical situations but thereâ€™s a different conclusion drawn from each situation.
Sam wasnâ€™t shown to be thinking about Jessica for almost four years (Bloody Mary 1.05 to Free to Be You and Me 5.03. Hell, we can push it to Provenance 1.19 because Sam was initially hesitant to get involved with Sarah Blake out of respect for Jessica, so just under 3 Â½ years) yet her appearance in 5.03 is being used as proof of how much he loved her.
Dean wasnâ€™t shown to be thinking about Lisa for just over two years (Dream a Little Dream of Me 3.10 and 99 Problems 5.17) yet that similar situation is being held up as proof that he didnâ€™t love her!
Quote: May I ask, if we were not meant to question aspects of the relationship (and thatâ€™s all Iâ€™m doing, questioning. I never said Sam didnâ€™t love Jessica), then why did the show have Sam bring to light the fact that Brady introduced him to Jessica in the first place? The added tension between them wasnâ€™t needed at that stage so why do it?
Itâ€™s really hard to know who loves (loved) whom in this show any more because every single relationship can be picked apart and held up for scrutiny. Does Dean love Sam or does he just feel responsible for him? Does Sam love Dean or does he feel oppressed by him? Did Mary love John or did she just want to get away from her father? The list is endless and an argument could be made for and against each of them. From here on in Iâ€™m going to go with they all loved each other and add the infamous Prince Charles disclaimer â€˜Whatever love meansâ€™.
And yeah, we did get to see Sam having a real lover, etc, but that was long time ago, too long. It was mostly pre-series, when Sam was not a hunter, and not as broken as he is now. Dean was never Sam, though, and I actually think the only kind of love he's known is for his family.
From what we've seen, hunting is forever, hunters don't get to have a normal life, hunters rarely grow old. And Sam and Dean's lives are even worse than other hunters' and are probably even more scarred than John, Bobby, or any other 50+ hunter we've seen.
Even further, how I read it, Lisa's arc served to prove us that exactly, regardless that Dean was not in love with her: he thinks his place is hunting, and that life will always catch him. It was insinuated for Sam too, when he married Becky this season, with Dean's phrase about his lover's life expectancy (and Sam's practical celibacy)
I'd love to see some happiness for the boys sometimes, and I understand in our culture that, for many people, translates as having a bf/gf/wife/husb and. But due to the nature of the show and the hunter's life, I don't think that's gonna happen, or last more than a couple episodes.
But that's just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe another hunter could take that role. I don't know. I just find it difficult to believe but wouldn't oppose to it if handled properly.
As far as Sam and Jess, and Sam and Madison, it was mentioned on the show about them being great loves, well Jess being great love, and how Sam 'found love again' with Madison. Their words not mine. But then Tim here did make a good point that we actually didn't get to witness the great romance between Sam and Jess, just heard about it.
Hey guys, I really love Sam, honestly I do. I'm not coming against him in any way. I won't lie and not say Dean is my favorite, he is, but that doesn't mean I don't love Sam and I want to see great story arcs for him too. And I know because of the nature of the show and the family business neither brother can have a steady relationship per se. But I want to see both guys have romances however brief, and especially for me Dean because I'd really like to see that side of him, and he's been so damned depressed and morose for so long he needs a little joy, not just a cheesy one night stand, but ROMANCE. Sam too. Hey, can't Carver just write a fun episode where the guys end up working with a pair of attractive female hunters and they mix work with pleasure? LOL what does anybody else think of that idea?
But a romance thing, like what Sam had with Sarah except (with copious amounts of sex), I'm down with that. For both guys. Especially if they could have return visits (with copious amounts of sex). I think that would be good........for the characters I mean. I mean if we HAD to have more than 1 shirtless scene (or a couple dozen-a piece) I would just have to accept that that is what is good for the characters
I personally didn't take like you were dogging Sam, I was just explaining how I saw the relationships.
Then he did lose the person he loves most and saw it as a complete failure on his part. So he sells his soul and is even happier for a while because he has Sam back, he finally did something right(as HE sees it not me) and made up for his dad selling his soul for him. The desperation and fear are there but he buries them until Sam forcing him to deal with them.
When he get back he's fells weak and depressed for breaking, but figures he can make up for things because the angels and God have big plans for me. But sinks into one is lowest moments when he finds out he broke the last seal. And his relationship with Sam is iffy at best and he sees his dad's warning coming true. After finding out the angels are complete dicks, the big fight, the betrayal and Lucifer. I think he was white knuckling it all S5. He broke with Sam and said he felt better but became even more desperate after seeing his possible future and what he and Sam turned into. So he reconciles with Sam and shoves everything down. And doesn't deal -and doesn't -and doesn't deal and things look more and more hopeless. Until he cracks upon seeing Sam detox again and fully breaks when he after heaven.
Depression becomes SI and he lashes out at Sam because in his pain he sees complete betrayal again. After all isn't Sam's heaven getting away from him. He tosses the amulet because he wants Sam to hurt as badly as he does and because suicidal people start
getting rid of things. Decides to says yes, but pulls back and gets a little better until he realizes he has to let Sam jump to show he believes him again and this is what Sam needs to do for himself. So no matter how much itâ€™s killing him he has to let him do it. After that IMO he's running on fumes until Sam does jumped. The only reason he doesn't kill himself at that point is because Sam knew he wanted a family and makes him promise to go live that life.
So the uber-hunter of S1 becomes the one with the life that Sam had wanted and Dean had disdained. It had a literary symmetry to it. And we know how much Chuck likes that.
So what I was trying to say with the second volume of my book series, Obsessing About the Winchesterâ€™s, is that I saw that all being interconnected with his storyline. If the writers dealt too much with his pain and depression then he wouldn't have done some of the things he did or made the mistakes he made. For instance a well-balanced person does not sell his soul. SO they needed him to still be on edge throughout that arc. And in S6 he was working to get Samâ€™s soul and then was just so happy to have his Sammy back that that nothing else could get through. Until Cas' betrayal, Lisa and Ben being kidnapped and Cas bringing down Sam's wall. Then all that stuff came washing back. So it made perfect sense to me that they would deal with it this year.
I thought GREAT they can deal with it in a realistic way because it would be perfectly reasonable that he was losing it. I didnâ€™t even mind that being his storyline this year, because I figured that meant at the end of the year weâ€™d get some version of the uber-hunter back. Obviously not the same guy but some who believe in himself, who believed in hunting and saving people and saw the value in what he does. But we didnâ€™t- we kind of got nothing. No resolution and no indication that they really remembered that they had started something at the beginning of the season. I really thought that Samâ€™s and his storylines were going to overlap when Sam went crazy. That Dean would completely lose for a bit but then have some epiphany and comes to Samâ€™s rescue and even with using Cas that would have been great. But instead we got him in the car a lot (not even the Impala) with Cas AND MEG UGGH. And not a lot of urgency to his actions. He definitely saved Sam but really he could have been working any other case, for all his passion for it. I FIND IT INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING.
I am hoping against hope that this will be picked up and resolved in season 2. It ties for my number two in my requests for next season along with getting insight into what is going on with Sam.
I even thought perhaps the Amy thing was apart of this. Showing that he wasnâ€™t thinking clearly, since he killed without any kind of consideration that we saw and then lied about to Sam, who considered him his stone #1. Considering Cas and Samâ€™s betrayal when he was on DB, an inability to trust anything with supernatural qualities, regardless of the situation, would seem reasonable. If cold. BUT he just ended up being completely inconsistent on when he killed things. Despite never openly questioned any decision (other than lying to Sam) or addressed any inconsistencies in his own behavior. AGAIN â€“ INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING.
This is the # 4 thing on my list I want addressed. #1 of course is the brothersâ€™ relationship and where did it go and why?
Sorry about the book again.
I think youâ€™ve mapped the progression of Deanâ€™s depression very well, from S2 to now. Iâ€™m not saying itâ€™s not consistent and understandable. I understand exactly how he got to that point. My problem is that show does nothing with it. To me, itâ€™s equivalent to watching Sam press his hand and wince for 12 episodes in a row with no movement, except for Dean itâ€™s been season after season. It might get a little better for a few episodes, a little worse for a few episodes, but basically Deanâ€™s been stuck in a holding pattern for 6 years. Worse than that, the writers use this as a crutch, substituting â€œDean will question what it means to be a hunterâ€ for an active storyline time and time again.
Worst of all for me, though, the only time they seem to address it is to criticize Dean for being depressed and that depressionâ€™s side effects like the drinking, with a seemingly endless succession of â€œBoo hoo, youâ€™re doing it wrongâ€ speeches. I think it does give fans reason to look down on Dean as well, because show is delivering the message loud and clear that itâ€™s reasonable to view someone who is being crushed under depression to the point of not being apathetic about everything he used to love as â€œwhinyâ€, â€œweakâ€, â€œpatheticâ€, etc. Thatâ€™s horrifying in a real world context. Yet they wonâ€™t let him move on or gain any resolution, because Jensen does angst well and God forbid they actually stretch to give him an active role in the story. He gets no credit for going on despite all of his issues, saving people, saving Sam, and doing the job, just more criticism. As a Dean fan,I find all of this extremely frustrating, because heâ€™s again in a no-win situation. At this point, I donâ€™t know whether to hope for some form of resolution or to just hope theyâ€™d drop it if theyâ€™re never going to resolve anything. Surely they can mine Dean in purgatory for something more than Dean has issues dealing and questions what it means to be a hunter, take 7.
So to sum up, I agree that Deanâ€™s depression is understandable and consistent throughout the last six seasons. I disagree at this point that itâ€™s a storyline, because itâ€™s not a dynamic storyâ€”nothing really changes or gets resolved, and it generally has nothing to do with the overall mytharc or story of the season. Instead, itâ€™s just used to give Jensen something to do (and heâ€™s good at it, but Iâ€™m sure heâ€™d like to do something else with the character) and as a club to knock Dean down more, and I find it incredibly tiresome and frustrating.
So my S8 list reads 1) make the brothers the focus of the show again by giving them both dynamic storylines as well as an emotional arc, 2) actually address the brotherly bond and make me believe itâ€™s more than just a partnership of both convenience and mutual misery, 3) give me a big bad that is actually menacing and interesting to watch [and leave your political/socia l commentary at the door, because itâ€™s not scary], 4) use secondary and guest characters wisely so that they enhance the brothersâ€™ story, instead of taking over, undermining Sam and Dean as heroes, and pushing your leads to the background, and 5) for the love of God, pacing. Please work on the pacing.
Iâ€™m not sure the wish list probably doesnâ€™t belong on yet another page, but Iâ€™m leaving it here.
He had every reason to be depressed this season and it WOULD have been a good time to do something with and resolve it but they didn't. Unless it was all a set up from some spectacular storyline next year, I'm still being a Pollyanna that maybe their just letting the fans lose their minds and then have something that connects all this in S8, so they can go PSYCH! Yeah I know unlikely.
Loved all your suggestions, except the social commentary didn't really bother me, but I do think the story's better when linked to the Winchester's. And it was a bit heavy-handed at time.
I feel like I'm completely non-stop bashing this season. But I absolutely LOVED A LOT of the episodes. I would rate a lot of the other pretty high. Even the ones I didn't like I was mostly about it's connection (or lack of connection) to the over all season storyline. (Except for Defending Your Life that was not a good episode and it's sad because it had so much potential.) Like the Shut Dr. Phil, I don't know if I would ever LOVE that episodes (despite having a crush on James Marsters). But it could easily get up to really like it, if taken separately from the whole season. But as it is, it kind of pisses me off, NO REALLY PISSES ME OFF, because Dean made this whole huge thing about killing Amy because she was killing people TO SAVE HER SON and then he basically turns around and lets 2 witches go who were killing for spite. YEAH REALLY REALLY PISSES ME OFF. It's just bad writing for the season. I want to slap the upside the head and go don't just watch you're own episodes dumbass (Now THAT was ranty).
If wouldn't bother me quite so much if they had just address the issues. Like had Dean say "Let's find a new spell before they can skip town" and then the Leviathan arrives and Stark walks in -saves them and says "we'll be gone before you get this messed cleaned up" or something-anyth ing to justify letting them live when Amy had to die what 3 episodes before. ARGGH. At at least wait till later in the season so it's not so obvious.'Cause even my sister, the Dean girl but who didn't like the Amy kill, was pissed at that one.
I further agree that if they were actually going to do something with Deanâ€™s issues, including-GASP- resolving some of them, that would have been something. They indeed had plenty of opportunity to do some exploration with Castiel, Bobby, even Amy (ugh). But they did nothing, and nothing changed. Dean mentally was in the exact same place at the beginning of the season as at the end, which was the same place he was at the beginning and end of S6. There was definitely consistency for Dean in the Gamble era, but in this case that wasnâ€™t a good thing. I think thatâ€™s why Jeremy Carverâ€™s arrival is so exciting for meâ€”it brings a measure of hope that things might different in S8.
Iâ€™m just not much for social commentary in my entertainment on either side. If I wanted to watch the news/political commentary, I would. And they really, really went heavy-handed this year, to the point I was rolling my eyes saying, â€œYES, I GET IT, THANKS FOR SPELLING OUT YOUR FEELINGS FOR ME, PTB.â€ I want the show to center around Sam and Dean, not what the powers that be want to teach me today.
I think there were some good episodes this season, but as an overall story it just didnâ€™t hang together well. Now, yes, there were also some complete clunkers. DYL had a ton of potential, but like Deanâ€™s depression storyline, went over the same territory weâ€™ve already covered and resolved nothing. Shut Up, Dr. Phil felt a bit like OMG, GUYS, LOOK WE HAVE BUFFY ALUMNI!!! And I liked both Carpenter and Marsters, but they should not be the stars of the show. Honestly, I never understand why Dean is supposed to take all of the rap for what happened at the end of that episode, though. Sam was there, he knew theyâ€™d killed people, and heâ€™d let them go, too. I donâ€™t think Sam didnâ€™t argue because he found their lives so sacredâ€”I think itâ€™s because Sam and Dean were clearly outmatched and because show has always shied away from having Sam and Dean kill witches. Iâ€™ve found that odd before, considering show had Sam and Dean both kill evil humans this season, but for some reason not witches. I think itâ€™s because they were played by Buffy alumni and they were leaving the door open for them to come back if the ratings shot up.
But it does indicate a larger writing issue I had this seasonâ€”the writers seemed to be writing in a vacuum. Itâ€™s like they assigned certain writers to certain episodes and then had them work independently of each other so that the stand-alones all seemed disjointed from both each other and from the overall story. But it was at this point that I basically gave up on episode to episode continuityâ€”if they didnâ€™t care, why should I?
I don't want to be a Gamble basher. But this is one thing Kripke seemed to better at IMO. I think things like that bugged him too, so if there was an easy fix, he'd have them do it.
Also agree about the vacuum and I don't know if that was Gamble or Singer responsibility but I feel like it should be Carver S8. Singer's a decent writer and a good director, but I don't feel like he always gets the heart of the show sometimes.
I was watching Kim Manners at the Paley Fest from 2006 and he was saying his favorite scene so far (this was mid S1) was the scene in Shadows where Dean says he wants them to be a family again and also the reunion with their dad. He was one of the greatest action directors but he knew what was truly important about the show was those moments.
I feel like they've cut down those scenes way down to focus on a plot that wasn't extremely exciting. And maybe it's just me, but I would have a lot fewer gripes if they'd skipped some of the plot, left a few more hole and given me more insight into what was happening with the brothers. Ideally I want a tight script, with a exciting storylines and lots of heart. This season we often didn't get any of that. Hopefully Carver will change that.
But I never gave up, I kept thinking they were going to pull it out. Heck I'm still pulling for S8 to explain at least part of went on in S7. HA HA!
Honestly, I'm not a big Gamble supporter. I think she writers good individual episodes, even some great ones, but I don't think she did that great a job as a show runner. I do think Kripke, even though he had his moments, seemed a little more interested in the details. The last two years, episodes seemed to start with one idea or message with everything else built around it, despite characterizatio n issues, continuity issues, or logic gaps. that's only my opinion, though. I wouldn't say Bob Singer's hands are clean here by any means, but Sera was the show-runner (until this year, when Bob suddenly became co-), so for me the buck stops with her. I don't think Bob gets it all the time either (his early S8 spoilers made me cringe a bit), but hopefully Jeremy Carver can keep that in check.
I think losing Kim Manners was a big blow for this show. I'm not sure we knew how much he contributed until he was gone. I think he really got the heart of the show in a way that almost no one does.
I would agree that the heart scenes have been cut for plot that people aren't enthralled by in the first place. I can think of two episodes (7.17 and 7.23) that had lines in the previews that were mroe on teh emotional side that ended up cut from the episode. It might have helped if the mytharc was better, but let's face it--this show is still around because people care about Sam, Dean, and their bond. I agree--tight scripts with action, original ideas, and lots of heart would be ideal. That's not too tall an order, Jeremy, right?
I can agree with allowing for some leeway because of the newness of the position, but I just don't understand the problem with coming off the 5 year arc. That, to me, means that the landscape was wide open. Show could have done anything, gone any direction. I do wonder what the division of responsibilitie s entailed, and how it all went down last year and this year, though I doubt we ever will.
Sam being brought back soulless was definitely a consequence and an extremely interesting concept to me. Because the real Sam was still in the cage, but Dean still had to deal with this not!Sam because anything his body did or anything that happen to Sam's body would mean still have consequences for Sam when he got back.
Plus I thought they did the build up to figuring out what was wrong with him well and one episode, Live Free or Twihard was incredible. I've said before, every person I know had the exact same reaction to Sam's creepy smile while let Dean get turned. "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH SAM?" It was a fantastic. Add that to all the Twilight in jokes. I'm a happy girl.
The next episode was also really good but those last 10 minutes, when Dean figures out that this is definitely not his Sammy. And then proceeds to beat the crap out of him. That was terrific. The next one is alright but ADGtH was meh. But then we have Clap if You Believe. FREAKIN' HILAROUS -if all writers wrote soulless Sam as good as Edlund I probably could have taken even more episodes. Unfortunately that was not the case. And I missed my Sammy. But the last two with Robo Sam WERE really good.
Then we had Like a Virgin. I have trouble telling how many times I've watched that reunion- beautiful. Sam was beautiful and Dean was SO HAPPY. We rarely see Dean that happy. Making dumb jokes that had me cracking up, smiling when Sam used the puppy-dog eyes of that girl and trying to get that sword out that stone OMG. Have I mentioned I totally love Dean. Who cares if the dragons were lame that was a great episode. It's hard to believe it was Adam Glass.
Mannequin 3 was not great but even it had a couple good brothers scene. Dean was being all protective big bro. I tell you I'm willing to forgive a lot for good bro mo's
And I had no problems really with the rest of the season. (I adored both The French Mistake and The Man Who Would be King-both Ben Edlund at his finest). I know some people where mad because they built up the Mother of All and she wasn't the big bad. But I saw that as just a red herring so that didn't bother me and I loved how Dean took her out.
And the last episode was also absolutely fabulous and set up things for this year wonderfully and they took advantage ---for the 1st 2 episodes.
And I loved how everything ended up inner connecting with the souls. But not in a heavy-handed way IMO. (I agree this year's did get a little so at times). And by making Cas the big bad they temporarily solved the problem of him fixing everything AND set up the situation where he is not the ultimate fix-it man this year and possible next. In fact, as much as I hope that is not the last we hear of Sam's problems. I thought that was one of the best inspirations of the year to keep Cas on. By taking on Sam's crazy and being a pacifist racked with guilt he's is considerably less helpful than before.
I only I had a few problems with 6. The Campbells- as much as I love Mitch Pileggi, I just didn't think it worked that well. They didn't give Samuel a good enough motivation for his actions. It never made sense to me why he would agree to leave heaven to have the chance to bring his daughter out of heaven, making a demon deal in the process. (Now if he'd been in hell and thought his daughter was too-that would have been interesting.) And the idea that he loved her so much he would do that but kill her kids didn't work. But since they didn't really drag it out-that was okay. I did like Caged Heat, Family Matters was alright and I loved Then There Were None.
Also the pacing was a little off and I thought soulless Sam needed most interesting writing or to cut out a couple episodes. So anyway that's the reasons.
I do think Sam coming back at the end of S5 did leave them with a problem to tackle, because how do you make your finale weighty when it basically led to no consequences? How do you show hell damage without it feeling like a carbon copy of Dean's? Going soulless was an interesting ideaâ€”I think one of the biggest problems at the outset of the season was the time jump, which is why later show acted like that didnt' happen. Like S4, it set Sam up from the get-go in a poor position, because he looked cruel for leaving Dean alone for a year, and by the time we got the full explanation, did it really make it better? Not for me. But logistically there were other issues. It didnâ€™t make sense that Bobby would let Dean mourn and drown in depression while knowing his brother was alive. It didnâ€™t make sense Bobby wouldnâ€™t see that Sam leaving Dean to mourn him that was cruel and therefore un-Sam-like. It didnâ€™t make sense that robo-Sam didnâ€™t care about Dean at all until the premiere, when suddenly he wanted Dean by his side? There was no rhyme or reason for Sam to want Dean around, though Dean chasing Sam made sense. I never figured out why roboSam was so determined, because his â€œIt just feels better when youâ€™re aroundâ€ was a lie since he had no feelings (except when he did, but Iâ€™m getting to that). No one treated Dean like he was a good or competent hunter, so why was robo-Sam so determined to have him along?
I agree that the build-up to figuring out what was wrong with Sam was well done from 6.1 to 6.5 (skipping 6.4, which was more of a stand-alone with no connection to the other episodes). I think Live Free or Twihard was a well done episode, and it really hammered home that Sam came back wrong. But the flip side of that for me was that I then utterly hated soulless Sam and had no desire to see him on my screen any further. So that was problematic. In fact, it was the reason I didnâ€™t care one bit what Dean did to him at the end of YCHTTâ€”it seemed he deserved every bit of it. I never believed his â€œI need helpâ€ act. ADGtH was meh. Iâ€™m not sure what the point of that episode was, other than to bring working for Crowley blackmail into the mix. The littlest hobo murdering dog and his familyâ€”was that supposed to be a metaphor for Dean and Lisa/Ben at that point? Adam Glass, oy. I only truly enjoyed his Mommy Dearest.
Clap if You Believe was cute, but it was ultimately problematic because you canâ€™t show me robo-Sam feeding Dean to vampires and then expect me to find his â€œYour soul ways are strange to meâ€ schtick cute. It wasnâ€™t. Show couldnâ€™t make up its mind whether he was a soulless bad guy who knew social conventions but didnâ€™t care or a robot who was unaccustomed to human emotions, motivations, etc. In All Dogs robo-Sam flat out told Dean he didnâ€™t care about him. In Clap Your Hands he didnâ€™t care if fairies abducted Dean or what happened to him. But suddenly in Caged Heat heâ€™s determined to save him? He wants Dean around, but then he doesnâ€™t care about him, but then he saves him? He wants his soul, but then he doesnâ€™t? Heâ€™s emotionless until heâ€™s angry with Cas for not answering him, heâ€™s scared of getting his soul back, etc. Poor Jared had to play the same character 7 different ways, and it just made no sense.
In the midst of all this, Dean was trapped once again in the dual â€œstorylinesâ€ he always getsâ€”big brother and depression. The Lisa/Ben storyline was essentially over in 6.2 when she sent him away, and then we had to deal with two more headshots in 6.5 and 6.6, each of which lasted one scene. But for fun, he got to hear how rusty he was and have everyone argue with him about saving his brotherâ€™s soul, which made no sense. Everyone told him it was mutilated . . . so they figured theyâ€™d just leave it there? That made no sense either, except to build conflict that shouldnâ€™t have been there. That was painful. I was thrilled when Samâ€™s soul returned, and that was a good finale to the first half, except for the fact that Dean's lesson with Death ended up being, "You can't change destiny", which was the complete antithesis of the message of the 5 season arc we'd just finished. But I was happy enough to have real Sam back to overlook that.
Now in the second half, you have Like a Virgin. The reunion was single-handedly the best part. The dragon was lame, the MoA was ultimately a waste of time, so on rewatch I just donâ€™t care. Sam completely ignoring Deanâ€™s concerns about the wall and picking at it anyway wasnâ€™t endearing, but I could see why he wondered. His guilt issues carried over to the next episode, and then disappeared. Not that I thought he should have to feel guilty, but what was the point of bringing it up and then just ignoring it? Why does show have Sam express guilt for things done to strangers, but never deal with the vamping or things done to Bobby and Dean? Honestly, show, prioritize.
Anyway, Unforgiven was great for flashbacks but terrible in terms of Dean and Sam for me. I hated the manipulative â€œWell, Iâ€™m going to do this and pick at the wall you put in to save my sanity, so you can come watch me do it and pick up the pieces. Or not, but who are we kidding? We know youâ€™ll come anyway.â€ Drove me nuts. The last scene was the best part there in terms of brotherly conversation/co ncern, and it was nice to see some consequences for scratching the wall.
Mannequin 3 was another chance for show to beat a dead horse with Lisa/Ben, except now to put the blame for their separation on Dean because he didnâ€™t return her calls after she broke up with him? The MotW was horrible. That was just a bad episode for me. The brother moments were only slight flashes of light.
Granted the second half picked up from there. 6.15-6.20 were good episodes. 6.15 and 6.18 were just fun, 6.20 was touching, and 6.16 was a great piece of horror. I did hate that the MoA turned out to be nothing but a red herring, because why are you wasting my time with it then? Maybe that was part of my problem as an admitted Dean fanâ€”one of the very few things you let him kill that season, and it turned out to be completely unimportant. Why am I not surprised? That was another thing that felt like the PTB were grasping around, trying to figure out what to do before ultimately settling on Castiel suddenly turning into the villain. Which Iâ€™ll admit they built well from 6.15 on, but looking at the early episodes it really feels like they were written without this ending in place. Castiel was not a good enough actor, going by how he was depicted in the second half, for the lies he had to be telling in the first half for that to have been endgame all along. That was problematic, too. Still, that was a great run of episodes.
Then we hit 6.21, which was Gamble once again dragging us to the Ben/Lisa well for no particular reason except for more Jensen angst, as it resolved nothing since weâ€™d already beaten the dead horse into the ground that they couldnâ€™t be together and Dean couldnâ€™t have a normal life. Its only purpose was to shut the door permanently on them because fans had hated the storyline all year, as far as I could tell.
The last episode was pretty good, despite once again making Dean wallpaper, but I felt like Samâ€™s journey through his own head was a bit of a missed opportunity, because we really didnâ€™t learn anything new about him. It was great to get a chance to see his POV, and Jared did a fantastic job, but really, did we learn anything about him that we didnâ€™t know already? Oh, well. It did set up the next season well, but look what they did with that.
Maybe itâ€™s my own dislike for noir, but I hated the time wasted with the Campbells, who werenâ€™t compelling and then were killed off before they were even given a chance to make sense or become interesting, the MoA, the alphas, and the other sideplots that went nowhere. I think the soulless Sam arc was mostly well done, except no one could remember how a person with no soul was supposed to act, and I disliked him so much I just wanted him off my screen. I didnâ€™t want to watch Dean corral him or teach him how to be a real boy or try to outwit him when robo-Sam decided to sell him out for the price of a Coke. I was happy when his soul came back (and Death continues to be awesome). Once the wall went up and he scratched once in Unforgiven it disappeared until the finale, so the continuity got less good in the second half. Deanâ€™s arc was pathetic when they bothered to pay attention to it.
So like S7, some of the episodes were all right, but as a season it just didnâ€™t hang together for me. The pacing for both seasons was rough, but you canâ€™t pin that all on Gamble because the pacing for S5 was rough to me, too. Maybe in S6 it just boils down to my personal taste, but I donâ€™t see it as more than a head above S7, if that. It took a long time to say that, but there it is.
One of the problems with creating a whole new mythology in year six is the same problem that the showâ€™s always had. They had no idea if they were going to be around for 5 more seasons. So they needed to make something that would be concluded in a year while leaving the opening for the next. Also they didnâ€™t have a complete blank slate, they had to make something that would fit with all the old mythology while they created their new one. Trying to stick with 5 years of canon for extremely detailed oriented fans while creating a whole new storyline is pretty difficult. If you could write all new pasts and destinies for two beloved characters, like some alternative universe fanfiction, it would be easy. But you canâ€™t, you have stick with what is already known and the characters have to be recognizable, as do their relationships with one another or you have A LOT of complaints like you did with this season and with soulless Sam.
But that is part of reason I liked the SS idea, because it for me it did had a same character AND a different one. I liked to build up to the reveal. Wondering if this was actually Sam or if his time in the cage had forever changed him? Then finding out that both were true and neither were true. I really liked that. The only effect it had on how I saw the real Sam was to make me feel extremely horrified for him, because to me the real Sam was still being tortured in the cage. No different then if a ghoul had taken Deanâ€™s form and memories while he was being tortured in hell. I didnâ€™t hate SS either, I actually thought he was hilarious in CIYB. He was without conscious, so his actions were based purely on logic.
Which is why I think he wanted Dean around, despite having no real feelings for him. He needs somebody he knows he can trust. Reading people is partly logical like Sherlock Holmes, you can deduce things based on the information on hand. But you also have to be able to read people and some of itâ€™s instinctual, neither of which SS could do. But he knew from Samâ€™s memories that he could trust Dean and Deanâ€™s instincts. This is how I saw his progression, he wakes up. Knows something wrong, but canâ€™t figure what. He goes to Bobby does all the standard tests to prove to Bobby heâ€™s not a monster, but thinks he canâ€™t tell Bobby something wrong because heâ€™s a hunter and he would remember Gordon tried to kill him because heâ€™s different. So he leaves before Bobby can figure it out.
He doesnâ€™t go to Dean because he has no connection and Bobby is the one with the base of knowledge. Also he could have had some of the same fears about Dean. Dean did threaten to kill him once, twice if the voice mail was never cleared up. But he would also remember everything else Dean and done and so was unsure of what to do. It logical to have partners though for safety, so he hooks up with the Campbells, because he has knowledge family breeds loyalty even if he feels none. When he figures out Dean is in danger, he goes to him not out fear for Dean necessarily, but because itâ€™s a lead to the monster and the alpha.
But when he realizes Dean is happy to see him, not amping up to kill him because he returned from hell wrong, he decides that being with the guy he knows he can trust, opposed to the Campbellâ€™s heâ€™s just guessing about, sounds good. So he decides to convince Dean he wants him back in. Dean might be rusty, but he knows everything heâ€™s accomplished so logically it makes since to stick with him. He just needs to continue to fake all the emotion, like heâ€™s been doing all year.
I donâ€™t believe he ever had a true emotion the entire time he was here. Even the â€œfearâ€ of dying is embedded in our DNA, it doesnâ€™t necessarily take an emotion to feel it. He could calculate risks and put himself in danger but the resouling was too big of risk, so he pretended to be terrified to try to get Dean and Death not to do it. He had physical sensations which is why he like sex and didnâ€™t like pain but no emotions.
Dean did have a big brother storyline, but he always torn between the life he thought he wanted (that a big part of him did still want) and the life that felt right and a brother he loved. And the rusty thing I thought was cool, because regardless of whether he was rusty or not he got the job done. So a rusty Dean is still a better hunter than most other hunters. Sam was better at getting the kill, but that was because he had no morals or conscious and could go 24 hours a day. But Dean was obviously the actual better hunter, because he got the kill while trying to do what was right.
Sam did bring up what he had done to Dean and Bobby while he was SS, but I have to admit I wouldnâ€™t have minded seeing more of that. I loved the Sam in Unforgiven. He was the old Sam trying to do what was right, regardless of the consequences to himself. I honestly think your view of him in that episodes is pretty harsh. He wasnâ€™t doing anything to Dean. Unless you look at it that every time Dean picks up a bottle heâ€™s deliberately being selfish and uncaring towards Sam. Because Sam will have to pick up the pieces when he goes rock bottom.
And the MoA, despite being a red herring, was not an important kill. If sheâ€™d been allowed she would have wrecked even more havoc. And could have ended doing as much damage as the Leviathan or more, if the Jefferson Starship had been perfected and got out.
While I agree that LIB was to hutdown any hope for them either having a normal relationship ever. I disagree that it was pointless. That was a pretty major thing. There is now basically no hope that they can really have any sort of future outside hunting. That is where part of Deanâ€™s hopelessness came from this year. I have to admit if they donâ€™t do anything about resolving his depression next year than that might be pointless. But that is still more of an issue with this season than last.
I agree that the build-up to the reveal was well done. I disliked retreading â€œWhatâ€™s wrong with Samâ€ again, though, and thatâ€™s where â€œclean slateâ€ suddenly became â€œcannibalize your previous canon.â€ I think the issue with your analogy is that if a ghoul had taken Deanâ€™s form and memories while Dean was being tortured in hell, I donâ€™t think we would have been asked to find it endearing, like I was apparently supposed to see SS in CYHIYB. I wouldnâ€™t be expecting Sam to take care of ghoul!Dean and work with him. I realize the difference is that Dean had to keep track of Samâ€™s body in order to get the soul back in, but I still had to basically watch a monster in Samâ€™s skin for 11 episodes, and Dean was expected to work with him, look out for him, etc., when if it had been any other monster Dean or Sam would have killed it in a heartbeat and been justified in doing so. I felt horror for real Sam as well (and frankly, showâ€™s insistence at having characters somehow advocate for leaving his soul in hell made no season whatsoever). But I still had to watch SS treat Dean like garbage, want to kill innocent people, etc, so it ending up just wearing on me, personally. I understand that was different for others.
I think your theory about SS and trusting Dean is the most logical explanation Iâ€™ve read about why he wanted Dean around. But why didnâ€™t any of that apply for a year? If he had real Samâ€™s memories, he knew Dean was the one to ride into Stull just to die with him, so logically all of the good he allegedly remembered of Dean should have outweighed one memory. It would be more logical to believe this was the one he could trust from the outset. If family meant safety, he should have immediately gone to Dean. Instead, he set up a new family with the Campbells. Therefore, he didnâ€™t need Dean, and his need to get to him shouldnâ€™t have been so urgent. To get a lead on an alpha, yes, but that didnâ€™t explain why he would desire any continued contact. His need for Dean to be around shouldnâ€™t have been so urgent, because heâ€™d already replaced him. He had loyal people at his back, or at least as far as he knew. It still doesnâ€™t make sense to me. Maybe Iâ€™m supposed to think he secretly knew he couldnâ€™t trust the Campbells, but that makes him look even less logical for being their attack dog for an entire year when he knew they couldnâ€™t be trusted. He clearly believed the Campbells were superior to Dean hunting wise (as did the Campbells), so it couldnâ€™t have been hunting skills. And despite whatever he was spouting in 6.1, he didnâ€™t learn from Dean to care about the people they were saving, because he didnâ€™t want to. He didnâ€™t even want to fake it, really. That didnâ€™t make sense to me, either.
See, I saw SS annoyed with Castiel in 6.3,smug in 6.5 when he let Dean get bitten, certain heâ€™d hit upon a brilliant plan, annoyed with Sampa for not coming clean in 6.7, afraid in 6.11, just to name a few times I saw him show emotion. So I disagree that he didnâ€™t. Show just forgot periodically that he was supposed to be a robot. They used the no emotion card when they wanted to, and threw them in when they wanted to. I do agree that he was playing Dean in 6.6 by pretending to be earnest and nervous, though, and thatâ€™s another reason why his beatdown there never bothered me.
Yes, Dean got saddled with the big brother storyline again, more retreading. I didnâ€™t see him as always torn about the ideal life, thoughâ€”that was over in 6.5. Show came back to perform way more autopsies than we needed, but by 6.6 Dean was convinced he was a killer and didnâ€™t belong anywhere near Lisa/Ben. He wasnâ€™t torn about itâ€”he knew it was gone. The rusty thing drove me up a wall, but I do have a thing for show constantly belittling my favorite, as well as one of the leads. I donâ€™t understand what you saw, because show went out of its way that Dean wasnâ€™t a better hunter than most, specifically because he was so â€œrustyâ€. He didnâ€™t get the kill unless under the influence of vampire blood in the entire first half of the season except for one fairy in a microwave, played entirely for laughs. He was morally right, but that didnâ€™t translate into respect or even action. He was still sidelined. So yeah, I hated that whole bit, too. Basically Deanâ€™s â€œstorylineâ€ was over by 6.6, and all that was left was big brother Dean and depression, which are his default settings, not actual stories.
Sam brought it up in the only way they let Sam bring things up, in vague generalities. And that doesnâ€™t bother me too much, because I didnâ€™t see SS as being Sam anyway. They never touched on the vamping, though, and since that was allegedly a big moment in Deanâ€™s â€œstorylineâ€ , it seems to me they should have. They should have done more with that, I agree. I know what youâ€™re saying about Sam in Unforgiven, and yes, part of me is being harsh. Yes, it was Sam trying to set things right, and part of that is a writing issue because they spent more time showing Sam thinking about what he did to random people than his family. Thatâ€™s the writersâ€™ fault, I agree.
And yes, he wasnâ€™t thinking of the consequences to himself, but he wasnâ€™t thinking of the consequences to Dean or Bobby if he knocked down the wall and killed himself. If Sam can proclaim Deanâ€™s deal as selfish, I donâ€™t see why Samâ€™s behavior here shouldnâ€™t be treated the same. And no, everytime Dean picks up a bottle he wasnâ€™t at risk of immediately triggering death or insanity. We havenâ€™t seen Dean manipulate Sam into following him while he goes on a self-destructiv e bender that Sam is afraid will bring about his death, so no, thatâ€™s not the same thing, so mileage varies.
We agree that the MoA was nothing but a red herring, and that in the end, the kill of her was not particularly related to the mytharc? Okay then.
The Lisa/Ben storyline was long dead before LIB. It was dead in YCHTT, it was dug back up to be killed again in Mannequin 3, with a little retconning to make it extra Deanâ€™s fault because he didnâ€™t answer calls from someone who said she couldnâ€™t be part of his life anymore. What? There simply was no need to go back to that well again. I didnâ€™t see that Dean thought he had any future with them, nor any chance at a normal life way back in 6.6. So, no, there was no reason to go back to LIB, because in the end we didnâ€™t get anything from it but flogging the dead angst horse for another pint of congealed blood. The PTB just couldnâ€™t (or wouldnâ€™t) think of anything else to do with Dean. He gained nothing from S6 in terms of character. S7 only made his â€œstorylineâ€ more aimless. So Iâ€™ll agree to disagree there as well.
On the ghoul analogy, the ONLY point I was trying to make with that is that real Sam had ABSOLUTELY no responsibility for what SS, because it wasn't him. I may have misunderstood, but it seemed like you were saying you were angry at Sam even after he'd been resouled for things he done before. If not then the whole comparison was unnecessary.
As for SS emotions, most of the expressions he was faking for the sake of manipulating Dean or whoever or trying to appear normal. He did look smug in LFoT without anyone looking so that could be an example. And smug, to me, is a form of satisfaction, which is like the sensation of sex. It feels good. He experience sensations but not emotion. But I could see some one arguing which is which. Regardless that is how I saw, so again it didn't bother me. The beatdown never bothered me either. That was actually my favorite scene. Raw emotion from Dean towards his brother who felt nothing.
I'll admit the alcoholism wasn't the best example, but Dean's not broken in the way Sam is. He never has been. IMO if Dean was in a similar situation where the only danger was to himself for what he saw as past mistakes. He would do it. So I still say you're being way too harsh on Sam, selfish or not.
Once again Sam actually did apologize in LaV or started to, but Dean cut him off by saying it wasn't his fault. But Sam insisted it was still his responsibility. I admitted that I would have like to seen the scene between Bobby and Sam making up. But really what could he do to make it up to them other than apologize (for things he wasn't responsible for-even if he thinks he is)?. They could let us see the full apology, but what else could he do?
On the saves, Dean got just a many that season as Sam did.
Feel free to correct me, if I got any of these wrong.
1st Sam, 2nd-Nobody,3rd- No kill Balty salted Raphel,4-Bobby kill. 5-All massive kills-Dean 6-Dean and Sam 7-No kills 8-Sam and Dean kill 9-Dean kills fairy. Sam kills leprechaun. 10-Onscreen Dean Kill Sam speared a demon with a pole 11-No kills 12-Sam kills 13- Sam kills 14-No kills. 15-No Kills 16-Dean kills worm but Sam killed Grampa 17-No kills 18-Dean kills 19-Dean kills 20-Cas Kills 21 Dean kills 22 Sam kills SS and CS So that's what 9 kills for Sam(including SS) 9kills for Dean
This isn't really in regards to you but to a lot of posts on here. But I sometimes feel like when my nieces come over and look at pictures on my wall. They will actually count to make sure they have a equal number. Looking for evidence that one is loved more than the other (although they know they'll never find anything so mainly I think they do it to irritate me.)
I guess my point is that if the writers are concentrating to make sure that if Dean got 8 kills the Sam has to get 8 or whatever. They might be missing more important aspect to the story.
I think that's my point, though. Dean was seen as being in a similar situation when he made the deal. The consequences were only to himself. Sam called him selfish for not thinking about what it would do to him, and Dean agreed. Therefore, I don't see Sam's actions in Unforgiven as any different. Your mileage obviously varies.
I will fully admit that my feelings about the handling of the aftermath of SS are conflicted and probably contradictory. This possibly comes from being annoyed that show found a way to write their "evil Sam" arc that Kripke hinted he had been planning to write before the writers' strike without making Sam responsible for any of it. Again, I don't think Sam should be held responsible for any of it. But because he isn't, all the consequences were wiped away, especially for Bobby (sure they hinted Bobby felt differently about him because he couldn't rid the image from his mind, but we never saw any sign of that whatsoever so I'm not sure what the point of the line even was) or Dean. No, Sam couldn't have done more than apologize, but they didn't even acknowledge SS' possible destructiveness to Sam's personal relationships, instead focusing on complete strangers. I think we agree that they could have addressed that more, but the problem is holding Sam accountable is wrong. So I don't know. Bottom line, it just left me unsatisfied.
I don't think I'm going to get into the numbers game with you, because that would involve quality of kills and timing and probably scientific formulas NASA uses and I just feel you're not that interested. I do feel like you're saying anyone who is interested is watching show wrong, and I'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't think there's a wrong way for fans to watch the show. But to me, show definitely made a point of showing Dean as rusty last season and as apathetic and sloppy in hunting as part of his "storyline", and if they weren't concentrating on it while they did that doesn't speak well of them. If they weren't concentrating on the Dean "storyline" aspect of the show, what were they concentrating on? But again, I can agree to disagree.
For me this would also include they way the show saw Dean that year. I seriously saw him as a badass hunter with very few signs of being rusty. Regardless of whatever those probably jealous (after all he's badass AND gorgeous) assholes said. Yeah the jerks stated he was rusty but I saw no actually signs of it, after EoMS. That was my perception of what the show was driving towards last season.
On the selfish thing, I'm not sure the instances are completely comparable because Dean made the deal for himself alone. And Sam was trying to correct past mistake and save people. BUT while I do think Dean's decision was selfish I totally love him for it. He thinks with his heart when it comes to family and that is one of my favorite things about him. Yes there were other factors but I do think he mostly did it because the person who was his brother, son, best-friend and partner was lying in front of him and he couldn't deal with the loss. Yes it was a mistake but it is nothing I fault him for. I know bit of a contradiction, but there it is I love him for his flaws as well as his strengths.
I apologize for the numbers game. Like I said most to the frustration comes from reader a lot of posts in one day. I was trying to point out that the way people remember things is not necessarily the way things happened.(talki ng actually facts here not perception) Not just on the kills but on large portions of the show. This is most definitely on both sides. Like the Ipod thing the other day. Some people remembered it as Dean throwing it out the window when he'd just tossed it in the backseat, which colored how they felt about Dean. Perception of actions is obviously subjective, but actually actions are not. But of course there is no wrong way to watch the show. I'm sorry I left that impression.
To me, that's a quandary. To me, the PTB did mean exactly that, because they included plenty of shots of Dean being saved by SS, the Campbells, etc, in the first half of the season. But if I wasn't supposed to see Dean as "rusty", then show just invited characters to heap insults on him for nothing? That's obnoxious. Honestly, at this point PTB's between a rock and hard place with me, because it's either a storyline I despised or they didn't really write what they stated they did (I remember distinctly Jared talking before the season about how Sam was going to have to take charge because Dean had been out of the game, for instance). Neither is good, but that's just my opinion.
You know what, I'll agree that Dean did make his deal mostly because he wanted to save his brother, and he didn't think about the consequences to himself or Sam in the aftermath. Sam wanted to learn about what his counterpart had done and seek redemption for himself, with no regards to himself or to Dean in the aftermath. I think they're pretty comparable. I just find that show has a double standard with Sam and Dean on this point--Dean leaving behind Sam in a sacrificial moment = selfish/Sam leaving Dean behind in a sacrifical moment = noble. Why is making things up to strangers more important than sticking around for Dean, the person who'd just run the gauntlet to save his soul? I just wish show had dug deeper into this, but of course like all interesting storylines show pretty much disposed of it after Unforgiven. Pity.
Perception can be distorted from the facts of show, but sometimes it can simply be that people interpret the same events differently. For example, in CYHIFB, Dean killed a fairy with a microwave, which was played completely for laughs. Then he was locked up in a cell, completely helpless, until SS could swoop in and save him by killing the main MotW. Quanitatively the kills might have been the same, but the quality is (to me) different, and therefore there is an imbalance. My perception may not match yours, and that's fine. We just see things differently, and neither one of us is wrong;
I think it will be very interesting to see the first episode of the new season focus entirely on Sam, how he's coping with not knowing what happened to Dean or where he is, taking care of the Impala, Yes! I want to see Sam actually working on his brother's car! It seems totally in character to me that a heartbroken Sam would be concerned with taking very good care of Dean's beloved "Baby" just like in S2 E1 where he insisted the totaled Impala could be salvaged because he refused to believe Dean would die, and knew he would want to fix it when he got out. I would think that car would be much more meaningful now for Sam. And I want to see the snappy exchanges between him and Crowley cause you know he'll be around harass Sam and to gloat in his misery
I've always felt that although Crowley clearly hates both Winchesters, he seemed to hate Sam just a bit more, maybe because at one time Sam was a threat to his power. Moose!
I don't think we should see Dean until the very end of the episode, and I think he should have red eyes like all the creatures that were surrounding him in Purgatory.
Questions to ponder: If Dean is gone for a long while, how is he going to eat? I can only think of one very awful possibility. And he has to eat SOMETHING or he'll die. And what he finally gets topside again, is he going to have an awful addiction, like Sam did with the demon blood, and will Sam have to lock him up and detox him? Will we get a crying Sammy begging for help from above like we did with Dean in My Bloody Valentine?
You guys might not like some of my posts, but you gotta admit, I could write a hell of a lot better then the current SPN writers are doing at this point LOL At least I think so.
I think it would be smart to focus a significant portion of the season opener on Sam and how heâ€™s dealing. I remember Bob Singer said Sam would have a human storyline this year (and hopefully he means to step out of the â€œWhatâ€™s wrong with Sam?â€ rut. This set up for this season feels very S4 to me, and while I love the beginning of 4.1, I think this time instead of starting with Dean they should start with Sam. I was conversing with someone on this board (Kelly, I want to say you, but I might be wrong) that said Sam got a bad start in S4 because his first scene was with Ruby in his motel room. I think this time they should show Sam working to find Dean. Taking care of the Impala is a fantastic suggestion, because very often the car has been a metaphor for Dean/home. Sam taking care of that, refusing to let it go just like in 2.1, would be great.
I donâ€™t know about Mark Shepherdâ€™s availability, but I think if he canâ€™t be the Big Bad of the season Iâ€™d love him to be a significant villain. I do think he seems to hate Sam more, and Iâ€™d like to see something come from that. Plus, I think Sam would be incensed and hated filled towards Crowley for what heâ€™s done to Dean.
I think they could quickly cut to Dean every so often for a short scene (because letâ€™s face it, extended purgatory is probably not in showâ€™s budget. I want to see at least a little Dean in Purgatory, but I donâ€™t need it to be extensive. I want to see Sam working to find Dean more, as well as emotional Sam. I think the logistics of Purgatory (eating, sleeping, rest among monsters hunting him, etc) are interesting problems, and I hope show does eventually explain them. I really donâ€™t want them to repeat Samâ€™s addiction storyline with Dean, just because show has a real issue with recycling storylines from one character to another. I want S8 to have completely original ideas that donâ€™t just reuse plots theyâ€™ve already done. Iâ€™d like to see some feral Deanâ€”complete ly wild and focused on survival, with Sam having to acclimate him back to being in the â€œrealâ€ world, so to speak, personally. But different things appeal to different people, so there you go.
Hey, I donâ€™t think thereâ€™s anything wrong with your posts, Misty. The more the merrier, in my opinion!
I think he's loving the fact that'Moose' is all alone now and would be dropping by every so often to rub it in. besides that, I think Sam is gonna be forced to work with him as he is the only one who knows what happened to Dean.
I do think a scene of Crowley dropping by to taunt Sam makes sense. I really don't want to see Sam and Dean working with any more demons, though, especially Crowley. He's already proven he'll screw them over every time. I want Sam to find a way to save Dean without working with demons. That's just my preference, because I feel like we've done the working with demon thing over and over now, and mileage varies. No problem.
It was also interesting to me that after Dean gave up on Cas in the season 7 opener, Sam, whose wall Cas deliberately broke, still prayed to him and believed that Cas was still 'in there' somewhere. This an area where Sam
is better than Dean; he has more faith. Although it was always shown that Cas was closer to Dean than to Sam, and he even said this, I think it would be intriguing to see the relationship between him and Sam. But then Cas has a hell of a lot of making up to do to Sam, and Dean too but more to Sam. And are they ever gonna show what happened with Cas's/ Emmanuel's wife? They just kinda dropped the poor lady1
I could see how it would be interesting for Castiel to get out and for Sam and Castiel to have to work together. I never really bought how easily their conflict seemed to resolve itself last season (I would think Jared didn't either, considering how he talked about how they had never really been friends in interviews). However, if you start trying to assign blame to Cas for Bobby, I think you'd have to hang Ellen and Jo on Sam, as his actions indirectly led to their deaths, so that's a mighty slippery slope.
I will agree that Dean, who forgives family extremely easily, took Cas's actions harder because they were against his brother rather than him. I think Sam identified more with Cas at that point, because he too had brought down great evil without intending to, under the guise of trying to save the world. I always thought his experience made him more empathetic there. I agree Sam generally has more faith than Dean, though.
I think it would be interesting to see Castiel and Sam work together, not because Castiel has so much more to make up to Sam because I think Cas taking away Sam's delusions/pain was a pretty significant gesture of amends making. Plus, I'm not sure how you "make up" something like that. I do think that because Sam and Cas have never been close it would be great to see them working together towards the common goal of saving Dean.
Yeah, I think Cas/Emmanuel's wife fell into a plot hole, never to be seen again.
But I think Castiel is now with Crowley. He must be. I want to see him solving his business with the demon, because they're not solved at all. And maybe, if done properly, this can lead to forgiveness, if not from Dean, at least from the audience. Taking Sam's illness (that, while for Sam it was painful and sad, for Cas is about chasing bees and being a kintergarden kid) is not enough for me. That's the least thing he could do,otherwise I'd stop liking the character and he'd be a bad guy for me.
But for me to forgive him, I need to see him taking responsability of his acts, true responsability. Not making sandwiches, not being all cute and shit and playing Sorry and Twister. That only makes it worse to me.
Face your shit, Cas. You're onlder than humanity, you should do better. You did too much bad.
I'd actually like to see Sam work alone. Let us see how good of a hunter he is. HOw smart he is and what can he think of to save Dean. Because, yes, I want Sam to help Dean out of Purgatory. I want him to fight for Dean and maybe take care of Dean if he comes broken. And show Dean he's still his brother and they can count on each other. That's all Dean has ever said he wanted, his family, his brother, and I think that would help heal Dean's broken soul and inject some self-esteem, so we can have a better Dean for the second half of the season, hopefully.
Too much wishful thinking. I know this is not happening.
If show proved anything to me in S5, it's that they're not super interested in personal redemption stories. I doubt they're going to do much more with Cas's actions in S6. He saved Sam's life and helped them take down the Leviathans--in terms of the PTB, I think they're done. Just like with S4/S5, it's up to individual fans if they're willing to forgive or not.
I will however agree that I want to see Cas face responsibility straight on. I think it's been a consistent character trait that he shies away from taking responsibility for things, too used to millenia of "just following orders." I'd like to see him grow out of that. I do agree that Cas's "crazy" last year was bizarre, and yet another time when the PTB wrote themselves into a corner. It didn't make sense that Cas could just take on Sam's hallucinations because they stemmed from his memories, so they had to have them mutate into "Hee, crazy Cas is funny." But the choices were limited, because if he ended up in pain like Sam I don't think fans would have been happy either, as I already read resentment that Sam's storyline had been regifted to Cas. It might be better all the way around to just move on.
This is my personal opinion, but I feel like show that last two years has been pretty dedicated to showing how smart and how good a hunter Sam was. In the soulless arc, show made sure to let us know Sam was now the best hunter--except for the fact that he was sloppy and let innocent people die because he didn't care enough to investigate. Despite being plagued by multiple mental issues and hallucinations, he more often than not saved Dean on hunts and was the strongest, deepest, etc. I feel like we've hit that note plenty of times. I think Sam hasn't had as much opportunity to interact with and work with other hunters, so that's what I'd like to see. but mileage varies.
As for the rest of what you said, I am wishful thinking right there with you. I want to see Sam help Dean, either out of purgatory (other option being Dean saves himself), and/or in its aftermath. I agree that a lot of Dean's issues could be helped by feeling wanted, needed, and cared for by his family, because that's always been part of his broken self-esteem ("Everyone's going to leave you", "You've always needed them more than anyone's needed you", etc). I'm not saying this is all his family's fault, but I think Sam could do a lot to help finally heal Dean and bring some resolution to at least some of his issues. Here's hoping anyway.
I think the Purgatory story can and should be used to finally show how much of a great hunter DEAN can be. In the last few years there have been numerous jibes on how rusty and weak he is, how he freezes and needs to be saved like a damsel in distress.
So to me being "taken care of" and "saved" some more would kill the little ounce of self esteem he still has. No thanks, I have no interest in that.
I want him to gain his confidence back by seeing that he is strong, smart and competent himself. Right from the start. Now I'm not expecting him to conquer Purgatory or something unrealisitc like that but the sheer factor of surviving it and becoming more of a badass from it is what I want to see.
He needs to see that he is worth something on his own first and foremost, that he can manage things on his own. Then, outside relationships can come in.
And then hopefully noone would have cause to demean him as a weak loser anymore and tell him to "suck it up". Or even if they are, he wouldn't be rankled about it anymore.
I agree that I want to see Dean regain his confidence. I want him to survive purgatory because he is strong, quick on his feet, and an incredibly good hunter, because he is. I don't mind Dean coming back a bit feral, and Sam taking care of him by negotiating with the real world on his behalf. But yes, what I most want from this storyline is for Dean to come back with 1) no one making him feel worse/less for having to survive yet another traumatic experience and 2) with some confidence that can finally start chipping away at his issues, which are starting to develop their own orbit field. I agree completely there.
I didn't like the Campbells, save for Qwen, hated Christian, because they all seemed to be putting Dean down all the time.
Moreover, I think after all this battering Dean doesn't believe he's a strong hunter anymore. He describes himself as a killer, not a hunter or savior of people any longer. All he can see are his failures, or his perceived failures.
So when I say I want Dean to be shown as a strong hunter again, I mean that in two ways. I want Dean to regain his confidence and believe he is not only good at his job, but doing good as well. I also mean I want show to stop having people berate Dean, especially under the mask of tough love, but never actually letting him up from under the rock of depression he's been stuck under for years now. Just my opinion.
And since hunting is the theme of this show and there are (in theory) only two protagonists, declaring one better sends a clear message on who they consider inferior.
It's just like "your hell will make mine look like Graceland".
Why, why was it necessary to put Dean vs. Sam in the show like that in dialogue?
Yet, they always do that. And always in Dean's disfavour.
He went to hell but wait, it was the fun, lollipop hell. And when it's referenced than not that he suffered there, nope. The only thing they reference is how he torturred, how he was "the bad guy".
He seemingly had a tie to the arc that dissolved into Death - a neutral party - telling him that Sam and only Sam was the one to defeat Lucifer and Michael telling him he wasn't a part of the story anymore.
His prowess as a hunter? See above.
Even the role of "big brother" (and I loathe when the character's entire worth is meassured on this by the narrative itself)? He is either too controlling/bos sy or not caring and protective enough. Depending on the plot of the week.
Meanwhile, even when they do a dark arc for Sam, he gets glorifying moments out of it. The demon powers, the soullessness, there were more than enough "look at the ultra-badass, Sex God yadda yadda" scenes. Heck, even while having Lucifer hallucinations he was perfectly alright dealing with everything and even hunted while having a breakdown.
With Dean? Like you said, we get an endless parade on how weak and whiny he is and rusty and just can't hack it and whatever is his problem again?
Of course that is also a problem because it is seen like he is, I don't know, "hogging the POV"? Whereas I say, the character-bashi ng writing? Please take it, far far away from him.
To me the show is going out of its way to keep the Dean vs. Sam alive in the narrative so at this point, quite frankly, it's not wonder the fandom is what it is.
Both sides seem to want what the other has and neither is satisfied.
Other new turned Vamp would've killed ten humans already to satisfy their hunger to be able to think clearly and kill their brethren. When push come to shove Dean is the most badass hunter there is but last season he's written as weary and hunting halfheartedly. Eventhough I love Dean's man-pain but too much of it on screen making him looks weak.
I hope we get to see the badass Dean rise again.
What I really want to see though is Sam himself under the hood, doing repairs that after all these years he surely must have learned from watching Dean, and even before that, watching his Dad( he was a mechanic remember?).Even though working on cars wasn't Sam's thing, it seems something surely would have to have rubbed off on Sam being around Dean all his life. We've NEVER seen Sam doing anything with that car. So how great would it be to actually, for the first time, see SAM under that hood, doing repairs. I would love that., Anybody else?
I dont want any scenes repeated like that wether it is a i-pod or something else .Or any excuses used to have Dean on the offensive with Sam over that car .I would rather see Sam ride a bicycle than see any more stupid scenes like the one from Lazarus Rising or the scene in the Amy episode.
That car just put it away let Sam check on it and then let him have a vehicle of his own and it avoids any petty dramas over it.
Just allow him to save Dean from Purgatory something he was denied when Dean went to hell .
Speaking of which, am I the only fan whose always wondered why they never did a body swap episode with Dean and Sam switching? I enjoyed the one they did with Sam and the teenager, but it just seems to me that the most obvious switch would have been Sam and Dean. An it would've been hilarious to see Jensen and Jared play eachother's characters! Am I the only fan who ever wanted to see that or thought about it?
Yes I do agree it HAS to be Sam that saves Dean this time. But I don't see how he's gonna do that without some assistance from a supernatural being, angel, demon, or whatever because he has to open that door right? Hey what about DEATH? He might be able to help!
They also, if I remember correctly, have to have the blood of a Purgatory native and something else but I forget now what.
I remember thinking that Swap Meat was a big cop-out in terms of a body switch episode. For an idea that had so much potential for us to learn about Dean and Sam, it just went nowhere. We didn't even learn anything new about Sam, who had given up normal long ago. Sigh. I'd love to see Jensen and Jared do a switch, and I know there were plenty of fans who said so at the time. The problem now is that no one thinks they'll repeat the plot so they don't talk about it anymore.
I don't know how Sam can save Dean on his own, but I'd love for them to come up with something new--not just the traditional fallback to angel or demon. Even Death's been used more than once now, and I love Death. In fact, I could work with Death, but I really want them to let Sam find an original way. It's not like show has problems with that--look at 6.4 when all of the sudden you could kill a demon by burning their past self's bones. That never came up before. So they could do something different, and I hope they do, personally.
The thing is, if they had continued with this characterizatio n of Dean. Calling himself the smarter brother, dismissing Sam's autonomy Sam would have come out looking less bad during season four and the writers decided that Dean had to be completely put upon and Sam had to be the big ungrateful brother. So the scene added nothing, except to have some viewers say that Sam had no right to own an IPod at all because it disrespected Dean.
But honestly, I don't think we were supposed to take the scene that seriously. As I said before, if we were going to take seriously every insult the boys said about each others' intelligence, skills, etc., you could build a damning case for either brother, depending on your bias.
Other than that, I feel defending Dean here will end up descending into Dean vs. Sam, so I'm going to bow out.
So, if Sam's teasing should be taken seriously as a reflection of how Sam feels about Dean then why shouldn't Dean's tossing of the iPod be taken seriously as a reflection of Dean's feelings re: Sam? What's the difference?
For the record, I've never taken Sam's teasing comments seriously, and I never saw Dean tossing the iPod as anything more than a comedic moment. Now, I know some criticized Sam for daring to put an iPod in the car but it was never a big deal to me.
That said, I don't recall Dean tossing it out the window. If he did, that's really messed up and is much less comedic to me.
I don't remember ever stating that Sam's teasing is a reflection of how Dean feels about him. I also don't remember criticizing Sam for putting an ipod in the Impala--I simply stated why I thought it might bother Dean.
Kelly very thoughtfully pointed out that we were all taking this scene more seriously than it was meant, and probably the discussion around it has as well. At the same time, I agree that if people want to start doing the "Other brother did my favorite wrong" game, both sides have plenty of ammuntion.
And yes this case of Sam vs Dean is not healthy at all.
They are brothers, they tease. Sometimes they know that what they do is annoying their brother but they did it anyway just to get a reaction from their brother. Dean knew that Sam annoyed at him looking up porn on his laptop but Dean do it many times anyway, just to see Sam's bitch face at him.
I have neighbor. They have a pair of boy and girl. The brother's always teasing his sister just to see her cry but he loves his sister just as much as he loves to tease her. It's what siblings do. Hell I fight with my brother over silly things but I never love him less.
I do agree with Kelly in that the scene was played for laughs.
Quote:The only reason the car made a good apology or comfort gesture was because the status quo was "don't touch my car."
But whatever. I agree the car needs to be run every few weeks to keep it up, but I'm ok if Sam does that off screen. I don't need to see him working on the car to know that he cares about Dean because I see it in just about every episode in a lot of small ways. I think working hard to get Dean back should be enough to say he cares.
I think I'll have to agree to disagree about a "don't touch my car" status quo. Yes, it's Dean's car and he's possessive, but I never got the impression Sam's not allowed to touch it without permission. Nor does it detract from the fact that Dean does use the car to say things to Sam he can't say out loud.
I don't remember stating that taking car of the car is the only way for Sam to care about Dean. In fact, I think I did say I wanted to see him working hard to get Dean back. I just thought it would be nice to see. Obviously we don't agree, and that's fine.
I think we do have to agree to disagree about Dean letting Sam touch his car. There were comments made in the first half of the series where it was suggested that Dean hardly ever let Sam drive the car. The scene in Fresh Blood where Dean teaches Sam about maintenance on the car comes to mind. Sam is surprised by the car lesson because Dean rarely lets him even drive it. And Dean comes out and says it in TGND: "New rule. You steal my baby, you get punched." But I agree that there was a lot else going on in TGND and the punch was more about other issues than the car.
It is the idea it was wrong for Sam to put the thing in the car in the first place .Layer that scene with others where this car is concerned and it just all add's to that idea.
Dean's words and hitting Sam in TGND was the final straw for me with the Impala and its relation to Sam but that is just personal to me. The Impala will continue to play a role in the story and their journey and Sam will no doubt drive it while Dean is otherwise occupied in season 8.
Yes people do move on after someone has died, but on THIS show the Impala is a character is her own right. A strange substitution for a steady relationship with a woman which Dean probably wants but can't have. Maybe he didn't have to rip out the ipod, because yes in fairness after Dean died the car rightfully did go to Sam, but I think the ipod scene wasn't meant to read anything into.
Dean doesn't like changes all that much. He wanted his life to be his Dad, his brother and himself road tripping and hunting like, forever. The Impala is his life, his past and his family, his place in the World.
I don't thinkit was that important on Sam's side. He probably wanted some new music and you can't buy cassetes nowadays lol
But I also think Dean is okay with Sam having Baby, especially if he's not there to drive. When Sam came back from Hello, Dean offered the keys to Sam, saying 'she should be hunting' or something along that.
Dean said "Well, she isn't" In his tone he was clearly upset about things. Lot's of things, really and when Dean upset he tended to snap and violent. Just in his nature is all and I don't think Sam read too much on it. So, why would we fight over it?
And selfishly I am not interested in reading comments about how Sam has disrespected Dean because he's driven the car or organized the trunk or installed an iPod. But I guess Sam will likely be criticized no matter what he does so in the end, it really doesn't matter!
As for Sam, I don't want to see him working with Crowley. I want to see him kick some Crowley butt to force Crowley to help him rescue Dean. In fact, I don't want to see either Sam or Dean partner with Crowley ever again. Crowley's proven he will screw them over every time, and their propensity to forget that fact is starting to make them look a little ridiculous.
I also don't want to see Sam fixing the car. Aside from the fact that Dean will complain if Sam changes anything, Sam's never been shown to have much skill as a mechanic and spending his time now learning that skill wouldn't be the best use of his time.
I also agree that we've Dean and Sam working with demons too many times. I don't want to see Sam working with Crowley or Meg or any other demon. We had that in every season since 4, and it's part of what's taking the show from black and white to everyone's dirty so what does it matter? I'd rather see Sam hook up with Garth, Charlie, or some new character that could really help him.
I guess I'd rather just know that Sam's not going to just stick the Impala in a garage and forget about it. I wouldn't mind seeing him work on it, but at the least I do want to see that Sam is mindful of what the car means to Dean and to him as well (see 5.22) and know that he's taking care of it in anticipation of Dean's return. Mileage obviously varies, and that's fine.
I don't know if he's joking or serious about it, but instead of seeing Dean yell at Sam about driving the car or altering it in anyway, Sam could have kept in somewhere safe waiting for Dean's return! I'm not sure how that would be not taking care of it.
I like the idea of Sam presenting the car to Dean in tip top shape and condition while tossing Dean the keys. What I mean is I'm perfectly okay w/Sam not driving the Impala.
I do want to see Sam drive and take care of the car until Dean comes back and then present him with the car in tip top shape when he returns. I don't have some hidden agenda in saying that, like it's necessary to prove something--I just like the idea. Mileage, as always, varies.
Quote:I kind of agree, but it makes me sad because if the care is Dean's then Sam really has NOTHING that belongs to him. Dean uses the computer to view porn, so that is a shared possession. I honestly can't think of anything Sam has had that is solely his. Dean HAD the amulet, which was indisputably his. Dean has the Impala, which is identified as his. What does Sam have that he can call his own?
The other thing that bothers me is that the car belonging to Dean is a way of keeping Sam from being an equal. I have a grown child who is living with me because she couldn't get a really good job and she has loans to pay for her education. So she's with me until she finds something better. If I tell her this is my house, and she has to live by my rules and I tell her what she can and cannot buy with her own money while living here, then I'm treating her like she is still a child. One of the few things that Sam has been allowed to express verbally is that he wants to be an equal and not be treated like a child. Dean being angry because Sam left in TGND was understandable. Dean telling Sam that the problem was that he used the car is telling Sam he isn't an equal and is still subject to Dean's rules.
I will simply agree to disagree that Dean is somehow using his car as part of some dastardly scheme to control Sam.
I've been watching old episodes of Battlestar Galactica, and there's a theme that runs through it - that parents need to die for children to come into their own. While I'm not putting any blame on Dean, I can't help feeling that Sam is not fully reaching his potential because he's stuck in this little brother role. And when Sam tries to voice this, it comes out as "family holds you back" - comments voiced under the influence of a siren's spell or while soulless which incite a lot of Sam hate on the boards.
This discussion evolved into a debate on whether Dean wants Sam to drive the car, but it started with a lot of comments - while not overtly saying it - suggesting that Sam still needs to prove that he loves, and is there for, his brother. He's still be labeled as the bad brother because he sometimes asserts some independence.
I love Dean. I really do. But I love Sam too, and want and need Sam to grow as an independent and strong character too.
I will agree that there are times when being the little brother has its disadvantages-- just like there have been times when Sam has used it to his advantage. There are times when being the big brother has its advantages and its drawbacks. There are times when both brothers cling to their familial positions, and times where both chafe at them. Of course there's tension between them at times because of that--Sam wants to be equal, but there are times he wants to have that little brother shield. There are times when Dean wants to maintain his position as big brother, but others where he feels overwhelmed. That, to me, is normal. We've seen the brothers work as equal partners many times over the season--there are times when Dean backs down and listens to Sam, so why wouldn't there be times when Sam does the same?
Have there been times where Sam's search for independence have been shown as wrong by the writers? Absolutely, but, in my opinion, no more times than Dean has been shown as wrong for wanting to protect his brother. I don't see much point in arguing fan reaction, but I think I have discussed ways that the writers have invited fan contempt for Dean as well the last few days. Each side can list their complaints.
I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly hope I'm not supposed to be the one implying that Sam needed to prove his love, because that's not what I said. I said I enjoy seeing Sam show his care for Dean, much like some fans enjoy seeing from Dean, judging by the debates I've had on this site recently. Sam is not the cause of all of Dean's issues, but his care can help, and I'm not sure why it would be wrong to want to see that.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with Sam being able to grow further as a character. I simply don't agree with the implication, or outright statement, that Dean is somehow responsible for Sam's ability to do so, or lack thereof.
Don't get me wrong, I don't blame Dean. I blame the writers. Dean's always had his issues, but it's only recently that Sam has been written as passively complying. I suspect the writers have been listening to a lot of the Sam hate around the net and neutering him to try to appease the faction that still thinks that Sam isn't there for Dean the way Dean is there for Sam. But the result is that they're destroying Sam's character.
Changing topics a little, last summer I remember reading a lot of comments posted on SPN articles about how Dean's story was always about saving Sam, and how we never get to see Dean be the one who needs saving. The Net was bombarded with these types of comments. So now we've just finished a season in which Sam's problems were minimized to a ridiculous degree, and Sam spent most of the season saving Dean rather than Dean saving Sam. Now fans are complaining that Dean is being portrayed as a weaker hunter than Sam. If you're looking for a reason for this, my guess is that the writers have been responding to the vocal fan groups who asked for this.
I find blaming fans for writers' choices a bit on par with blaming Dean, unfortunately. But I will say, for me, if this season was supposed to be the answer to Sam being there/taking care of Dean, they failed. When fans complained about Dean's storyline constantly being "Save Sam", they meant his active story was based around taking care of Sam and wanted a season where Sam's focus was on saving Dean. That is not what happened this season--we got many worried looks, several bitchfaces, some words, and finally "I don't care how you deal", before that plot was dropped completely. He didn't proactively help Dean with any of his issues. Dean fans didn't want Sam literally saving Dean from the MotW week after week--they wanted Sam to be allowed to help Dean with his issues. If show thought it was answering that call, they failed.
It is, to me, on par with how they failed with meeting some fans' call for having a Sam emotional storyline this season using his hell issues. They started well, but quickly realized they were in over their head and applied a quick fix with the hand bit before resolving the episode sloppily. Plus, some fans apparently now see Sam as complete wallpaper and not even a character, even though show was trying to give them what they wanted by depicting the hesitance someone who couldn't trust what he was seeing might have. Yes, there were some scenes revealing Sam's mental state, including that hestitance, and they did include a Sam breakdown, but I haven't read much from Sam fans that said they were happy with the state of events.
Is any of this the characters' fault? No. Is any of this the fans' fault? No. The writers, in the end, have to be responsible for what they write, and blaming other fanbases for things we don't care for in show is passing the buck, in my opinion. We can agree to disagree there as well, though.
Oh, and I also again want to emphasize that I do not blame Sam for the fact that the caring for Dean "storyline" this season was, in my opinion, lacking. He had tremendous issues of his own to deal with, and he was doing the best he could. As was Dean in taking care of Sam. The writers really set both boys up with isolating storylines that didn't let either of them lend much help of understanding to one another because they were drowning in their own issues. But they did try, both with each other and to save the world, so I think they should be given credit at least for that.
Getting back to the discussion on whether Sam has lost his identity, I'm curious how you would describe Sam's personality if you could only pull from this season, not from episodes from previous seasons. I'm pretty much drawing a blank slate. I don't recall any defining personality traits this season.
Dean having a mytharc connection? I don't see how he was the Leviathans Chosen One or anything so nope.
Dean regaining his badass hunter status? Nope. Being saved over and over again, freezing in fights just for the hell of it.
Dean getting something else than the same stupid emo depression crap for another year with the obnoxious boohoo speeches? Not even in my dreams.
To me the story in the last three years could have been written by Becky Rosen and we all know what she thought of Dean.
Going way back, I didn't understand WHY Missouri was so nice to Sam and so mean to Dean. Didn't make sense at all.
That said, I found her entire persona off-putting, the cooing over Sam as if he was in diapers, the condescension towards the younger mother in the haunted house, the smugness over her abilities as a psychic (which were nothing to write home about according to this episode), her discussing clients with strangers.
She was written like a certain archetype that I personally would happily throw into a volcano and obviously Kripke and I do not share the same outlook on familial relationships or the same humour.
As for Becky and her first reaction to Dean, guess that was supposed to be funny as well. Now I found the character obnoxious from the start but the Dean-shunning didn't offend me much because he is hardly gonna be heartbroken about it.
I think when it comes to his looks (and sexual prowess), it is one of the few areas where Dean has a healthy confidence about himself. Anything else would be unrealistic, too. "Tens" are aware of what they have, simply by the reactions of those around him all their lifes. So, and not to be mean, but being shunned by the likes of Becky? No skin off his back.
If I saw Dean Winchester I would probably jump his bones right there LOL I think he's beautiful.
In that area, I think they have. Maybe they haven't pushed it that much like with Sam when they do it so it doesn't stick out AS much but off the top of my head:
-Bela's reaction when he walked down the stairs in a tux,
- Jo was pretty much instantly attracted to him,
- the girl in the convention episode playing the ghost - she was disinterestly listening to his pick up lines, thinking he was another geeky Dean double UNTIL she looked at him and immediately changed her tune
-Jaime from Monster Movie
- Lisa's friends in the second ep of Season 3 were very clearly checking him out
- Pamela upon first meeting
And there were quite a few women in peril in various episodes who obviously were attracted to him, Hailey the girl from Wendigo, the mother Amy Acker played, various bartenders and women he got info from, that one actress he fanboyed, Anna.
Or even in the Season 6 opener when he was out with his neughbour friend and the guy remarked on Dean always getting waitresses numbers, even unbidden.
I haven't like all the writings for interaction between Dean and women, cast in point, I don't for the "put him in his place" bitchery style.
But I do not believe show implied that he is anything but scorching hot. There are a few remarks in in terms of dialogue and the character certainly doesn't have problems finding an attractive partner interested in a hook-up.
And I don't think they have even implied that women don't notice him next to Sam. They don't quite go after the same type, at least not seriously so this isn't an area where they are all that much in rivalry. But I think there have been women on the show who clearly fancied Dean over Sam upon first look as vice versa.
What Becky meant, from the cover of Carver Edlund series that Dean and Sam were described though hunters with chisel jaws and bulky and super tall and broad-chested.
Well, Sam is that but Dean's (Jensen's) appearance are more delicate to what the book cover implied.
And Dean was written as badass hero, though, strong, muscles, bulky, with an attitude. And Becky caressed Sam's chest definitely her taste is a guy like that.
Not that it's bad. I mean I like Dean (Jensen) the way he is now. Not too bulky, just proportional. Jared is the one that's bulked up.
However, in this case, I think Dean looking like he does, it wasn't supposed to come across as a legitime putdown that the audience should agree with and laugh at him.
The show has done out of its way (some of it was even a bit mean) to portray Becky as someone who is uber-pathetic and bodily hideous (don't know where that comes from, the actress is quite lovely) so they probably envisioned the audiences simply laughing at her, thinking that he outclasses her anyway and not going "in your face, Dean".
I mean, if that were me and Dean were on the other end of the room - I'd be the elbow and everyone else out of the way. Though he gets some tough competition from youngJohn. Mwror.
As for the fourth point I saw--Sam's story centering around saving/taking care of Dean, they failed there too, because fans didn't want Dean standing on the sidelines while Sam killed MotW after MotW. They wanted to see Sam actively working to save Dean, either as part of Dean's mytharc or in actually helping him resolve some of his issues. We saw neither of things, either.
As I said before, the writers did as well fulfilling Dean fans' wishes for a mytharc storyline and Dean resolving his issues and regaining his joy as they did fulfilling Sam fans' wishes that he would have an emotional storyline this season. So either they were focused on wish fulfillment and completely failed at everything, or else they were doing whatever they wanted this season and it still ended up a mess. My suspicion is they did the latter, but that's just me.
If killing Dick was meant to be a connection to the mytharc, I never saw it as one. If killing Dick indicates a deep connection to the mytharc, I guess Dean was somehow the focus of the YED arc and Ruby? No, I don't think we can argue that. I'm sorry, but I disagree that Dean was timed to the mytharc this year and that the writers were trying to make him so. If so, they're more inept than I thought. In fact, since Bob Singer basically told us that the Dick's death was Crowley's trick to get Castiel trapped in purgatory and Dean just happened to be in the way, I find myself quite doubtful that they saw it that way, either.
I feel that we still saw Sam as a compassionate and forgiving individual, based upon his dealings with Castiel. I feel we still saw Sam as an independent and secretive person, as he was determined to handle his hell issues on his own, as well as the Amy issue. We see that Sam is still a brother, who showed some concern for Dean, even if show didn't allow him to do much actively in that regard and his instant willingness to go against his usual principles of giving chances when he killed Emma. We see that Sam is still stubborn, unwilling to listen to Dean's reasons for why to kill Amy. We see that Sam is traumatized by his hell hallucinations, a bit more hesitant to trust what's in front of him. We also learn that he's focusing on small hunts because he needs something small and concrete to keep it together, by Sam's own words. We still see that Sam wants to give second chances to the supernatural, shown in 7.3 and 7.5. We saw that Sam is still the ends justify the means big picture guy in 7.22, when he's willing to deal with the alpha vamp for blood. We see he's still committed to saving people, due to his insistence on saving the alpha's child victim.
To me, that's a lot of personality/cha racter traits, but again, that's just me.
On the Sam part, thanks for answering my question. I agree with some of this, specifically that he has been consistently portrayed as compassionate, forgiving, and secretive (he's guarded about what's going on with him personally). I wouldn't call having a different opinion than Dean about Amy "stubborn" (and the fact that he was the first to bend on the Amy situation implies that he was not stubborn), and I don't agree with the assessment that his reaction to the alpha vamp shows he had an "ends justify the means" personality trait since he wouldn't sacrifice the child to the vamp. Another example where he went with the victim rather than the "big picture" was Adventures in Babysitting, where he argued for rescuing Krissy rather than going after Dick Roman. The parts about him being traumatized and hesitant really aren't personality traits so much as reactions to his current storyline.
My reaction to this is that compassionate, forgiving, and secretive doesn't exactly make a well-rounded character profile, and I can't think of any additional ones to add. I understand that people have different ideas on what they expect to get out of the show, but compared to the depth Sam's character had near the beginning of the series, this is leaving me wanting a lot more.
I do see Sam as a stubborn individual (I think Dean is as well). I do think he has tunnel vision when it comes to a goal or an idea, and I saw that from him this year. When I speak of the Amy situation, I simply refer to the fact that he had the idea in his head that Amy was like him, so he was able to disregard her victims as victims. I could similiarly see his commitment to sticking to small hunts as stubborn. I don't think being stubborn is a bad thing necessarily.
He has consistently projected his own fears onto others, whether it be the special kids or Dean. He did it this year in projecting that seeing Amy as a freak = seeing Sam as a freak. He projected his desire not to confront his issues in 7.1 as Dean can't handle it (and yes, Dean said he didn't want something to be wrong, but he told Bobby he knew that there had to be).
We consistently saw Sam being a great hunter, even though at times it seemed like he shouldn't have been. He was smart, focused, and able to do the job. I think since S4 Sam has been consistently less patient with the PiP, and I think that showed this season.
I do think Sam is more consistently a big picture person, though there were times that he saw the small picture first, like with Krissy. I think before this season Dean was more consistently a small picture person, but this year his apathy led his scope to narrow even more. I do see Sam as more of an ends justifies the means person, but he does have principles. He isn't going to leave a child with a monster, but he is wiling to hold his nose to bargain with one fairly consistently, and at times this has been the right strategy. If Sam's hell damage makes him act in a consistent way, then that does become part of his personality, but that's just my opinion.
I feel like I've listed a lot more personality attributes than compassionate, forgiving, and secretive, and all the things I've listed do make up a layered character. I feel that Sam is actually deeper than what I saw in S1, when it was pretty much revenge, guilt, and visions. But as always, miles vary.
Others seem to consider the emo thing Dean gets as a prize while to me with the way they do it, it's the worst thing to heap on a character.
Meanwhile what is found so lacking for Sam sounds like a huge banquet for a character for me. I'd take it in a heartbeat.
Going by the various complaints on either characters, it seems that with a real reversal, it could make a lot of people happy.
Sam not having that sort of exploration of character the mytharc give him a different situation , hidden sl's lack of pov etc did hurt the character .I wouldnt really see Sam getting a emotional arc has a prize as more a late than never scenario . I dont believe we would get a role reversal to be honest anyway as there is no way they wouldnt give Dean either a pov or emotional follow up to anything he goes through even if he has a 'mytharc' story.
However, with Sam, I feel we only got the POV along with the mytharc in the first two seasons. Sam was much more fleshed out in the earlier seasons. Now, he's less fleshed out. The writers no longer seem interested in Sam or what he thinks.
Which is the same amount of Seasons with mytharc and POV you just named for Dean.
However, I doubt, if they truly actually did the so-called emo "storyline" with Sam in the way they have been doing it with Dean, constantly harping on the negatives for the character, constantly harping on how weak, whiny and pathetic he is, having a string of character giving him "boohoo" speeches that get cheered on by fandom, that THAT would be something embraced as wonderful if it happened.
I'm not saying the writing for Sam is wonderful and nothing ever gets dropped but at least I can legitimately say that if he were the mythical Chosen One, got the glorified badass moments, the same amount of supernatural "it wasn't really him" for any bad action and all that stuff, I would be more than okay with it. It wouldn't bug me if he didn't get one scene of POV in it during the entire Season (and really, it's not like Sam never gets those either).
I would agree, cd28, that show's sudden switch of Dean and Sam's small picture/big picture outlooks to be out of character, as well as plot driving the characters. I'll agree to disagree about Amy, as well as the "Dean is obsessed" actually translating into a real storyline, because in my view 2 minutes of repeating the same dialogue at the beginning of some episodes does not actually equal a storyline.
I think, Sasha, the grass is always greener on the other side. Doesn't mean we shouldn't all get to get a taste, right?
As far as the Impala goes, and by now I'm regretting even bringing up that subject but, I think the reason it's so important to Dean is precisely because he doesn't have his own identity apart from his family, so a lot of his identity is wrapped up in 'Baby'.
That's what drives this show, the passion in brings out in it's fans!y6qhb
I would love for Sam to of had a personal something either of John or his mum or even Jessica it would make Sam more human and less mechanical and his personality less reliant on something Supernatural .
I dont get fussed over car's but the Impala is Dean's and it is more often than not underlined but it is the only vehicle the boys have so Sam has no choice but to use it.