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Warning!!!!  If you haven't seen the latest episode of "Supernatural" and the preview for next week, do not read this!  There is going to be plot-based speculation about Sam's actions and possible motivations behind them.  You've been officially warned!
First of all, I want to pass out high-fives to everyone who participated in the last speculation discussion.  That was awesome, guys! There were so many great and thought-provoking theories flying around, and everyone was very respectful and accommodating and wonderful.  And before I get into my updated theory on what's happening, I want to say that so many of you posted amazing things that I just can't reference you all.  Also, I didn't get a chance to go through every one of them because I just didn't have time.  So if the theories or ideas I'm going to talk about in a bit were in your posts, too, congratulations!  You get extra bonus points!  Anyway, on to the theories!
What We Learned Tonight (in "You Can't Handle the Truth" and the preview for next week's episode)
There were some major developments on the Mysterious Sam Behavior front, weren't there?  First and foremost, Castiel confirmed that Sam is not Lucifer.  Check and mate.  That was great, getting that out of the way.  So now we know definitively that Sam is not Lucifer.  Of course, this clip was released early in the week as a teaser, so we already kind of knew that.  Still, it was nice to have that confirmed and not dragged out.
Moving on, what we learned from Sam himself is that he can't feel anything.  Let's all take a moment to process that, because it was pretty major.  He. Cannot. Feel. Anything.  That's horrible.  What's more, he realizes that his lack of feeling has turned him into something so very un-Sam.  He knows the things he's been doing are wrong, but he just doesn't care because he literally can't.  I can't even imagine what that would be like, going through life and not feeling any emotion toward anything.  And while he did try to rationalize his actions, which is a very Sam thing to do, he also admitted that he needed help.  Now, I'm not sure if that was something he was just saying because he thought Dean needed to hear it or if he meant it.  Time will tell.
And in the preview for next week, we had confirmation that Sam has no soul.  Which, holy crap!  I'm pretty surprised they confirmed that in the preview, but whatever.  Now we know for sure what's going on with Sam.  I totally got Jossed because I had this whole article in my head, ready for speculation, and now the preview screwed me!  I know, I know poor Arde, boo-hoo.  I'll call myself the wambulance and be done with it.  Anyway, now it's time to speculate about who has Sam's soul!

Here is the preview for those of you outside the US. 

Balthazar Has It (Maybe, but I doubt it)
In "The Third Man," we were introduced to rogue angel Balthazar.  Following the Cass blueprint, he broke out of heaven, stole it's weapons, and set up shop on Earth.  He's been enjoying himself very much.  Oh, and he's buying human souls.  Why?  Because they're the only thing of value, as he sees it.  But I don't really think he has Sam's soul.  First of all, how would he have gained access?  Sam was in Hell, and I don't think Balthazar would have gone down there to retrieve Sam's soul.  So while it is a possibility, I really don't think this is the case.  I think it's the other option.
Crowley Has It
This is where I'm putting my money.  I think Crowley has Sam's soul.  Now, I have no idea as to the particulars about how he actually obtained it.  Maybe Sam sold it to get out of Hell, effective immediately.  Maybe Sam made a deal and didn't read the fine print, something like "I will sell my soul to you if you put me back on earth alive," but he neglected to put in a clause about keeping his soul in his body.  So Sam got sent to earth but his soul stayed behind.  I'm not really sure how it went down, but somehow or another, Crowley got ahold of Sam's soul.  It makes the most sense to me.  
As the new king of Hell, Crowley certainly had the opportunity to find Sam.  He's proven himself to be extremely resourceful and conniving and tricky, so I fully expect he could have found a way, a loophole somewhere to bust Sam out of that cage.
If Crowley does hold Sam's soul, there are a number of problems and interesting situations this creates.  Samuel said in the season premiere that whatever busted Sam out also brought him back.  Assuming he's telling the truth, does that mean Crowley brought Samuel back to life?  Is that who Samuel is working for?  If it is, then that means Crowley has something to do with all the alphas being taken.  Maybe he's trying to build up a monster army to do his dirty work on earth while the demons just sit back safe and sound in Hell and don't have to worry about getting trapped or killed or exorcised.  He did say he was trying to show demons a new way and was disappointed by their lack of vision.
Another problem is that Crowley has his bones back.  They don't have much to use as leverage against him right now, or at least not much that I can see.  "A deal's a deal," Sam said.  That's beginning to look more and more ominous now, isn't it?  Perhaps that was a subtle reminder to Crowley to hold up his end of a deal they made.
I just had a troubling thought: what if Crowley has been running a long con on everyone?  He wanted Lucifer out of the way so he could be king of Hell, not because he thought Lucifer would turn on demons next.  He helped the boys get the horsemen rings so he could have Lucifer trapped in Sam and double trapped in a cage in Hell.  He wanted Sam down there so he could make some sort of deal and send Sam back topside to fulfill some purpose we haven't seen yet.  He brought Samuel back to keep Sam occupied and away from Dean, who would notice right away how wrong Sam was and would ruin his plans, and to help him capture alphas. Crowley, you evil bastard!
If any of this is true, I expect Crowley is going to be the big bad of the season, which will be delightful because Mark Sheppard is awesomesauce.  Man, I can't wait to see how this all plays out.
Okay, that was a lot of speculating.  I'm going to turn it over to you guys now. What do you think?  Am I crazy or right on the money?


# Alice 2010-10-30 00:24
I'm really still trying to wrap my head around it. It's funny, this time last week it was my belief Sam deserved a major butt kicking. I'm so thrilled that he finally told Dean the honest truth, but he's been hanging onto that for a year. Why didn't he come clean earlier? Why did it take Dean waving a knife for him to get that far? That's one question I'd like Dean to ask and get answered in the upcoming episode. I still think Dean should have knocked him around a little in retaliation for the vampire thing, but the brutal beating he gave Sam, that was really tough to watch. That was no butt kicking. That was a brutal, vicious, not deserved attack.

Anyone think Sam will fess up that he sold his soul? I'm very curious how Sam reacts to that piece of news, if he's shocked or it's nothing he didn't already know. As to who has it, I have no theories yet. How does a man find his soul? I think I'll be checking out some lore on the internet this weekend.

Also, what does that mean, "A man without a soul is not a man." Hmm...
Leslie D.
# Leslie D. 2010-10-30 00:52
Awesome possibilities!!!!

Crowley is more than likely a good bet, unless its some other big baddy we haven't seen yet. 8-) Smooth, bastard that he is!!! He probably has been plotting this con for a very long time and have considered all the possibilities. Come to think about it, he took the whole bones thing in stride, so he probably had expected this turn of events.

We haven't seen the last of him or Baltazzar!!!
# Yvonne 2010-10-30 01:02
Big thanks Arde!!! Wasn't able to see that preview clip before. Was that that Alpha vamp? Freaky.

No theories. No ideas. Pretty relieved to get the ball rolling on getting Sam better.

That WAS a brutal beating, and I felt for both brothers and somehow can't condemn either. Dean's got a lot of everything packed down inside, guess once he started hitting he just couldn't stop. In fact, from his facial, I think we're lucky he did stop. And Sammy. My heart!

No feelings? What a heartbreak! A.)It's almost nauseating to think that sweet Sam has been turned into something that can't feel. B.)I wonder if it's not something of a relief for him. He's had so much pain heaped on him that I wonder how much of it wasn't voluntary. Back in Dean's confession about what he did in hell, he said he wished he couldn't feel anymore. What if Sam had the same wish and was able to make it come true? Horribly, Horribly true!

So does this mean that Sam now has Antisocial Personality Disorder (the more familiar name being psychopath)? Jasminka would know so much more, but in my understanding, psychopaths are incapable of feeling as we do. Of course not all of them become murderous, but they usually do learn how to pretend emotion rather well. Better than what Sam is pretending. But then he hasn't been practicing since birth. Faced with this, I'm quite happy with the no soul theory since there is no cure, drugs or treatment for psychotics. (just looking for an upside!)

Great acting on the J's part per usual. Not sure how I feel about Jan Eliasburg as a director. I'm no expert or usually even an armchair film person/critic/w hatever, but a few times I noted the shot and direction...and it was distracting.

It may be strange, but I'm feeling happy (in comparison to last week). There are answers in sight. Despite that cliffhanger, the week isn't streching out endlessly. Anticipation, yes. Whiteknuckling it? No. Thank Chuck, I can breathe again! Yay show!!!
Mardem Jr.
# Mardem Jr. 2010-10-30 01:12
I disagree on Crowley owning Sam's soul. Castiel said that deals leave only a brand on the soul. Another thing is that Azazel, for example, knew where the cage was located, but he couldn't do anything to reach inside it (except for telepathic messages), and I'm assuming Azazel is way more powerful than Crowley, since he has 'only' 400 hundreds years.

My theory right now is that, in order to pull something out of that cage, something really powerful had to be operating behind it. So, I think, the alphas combined forces to pull Sam out of there and left him soulless, because he would be a perfect 'animal' (see the promo with the Alpha Vamp talking to Sam) or weapon to rule the world, maybe? Now the only thing left to know is why, which I have no clue.
# Tigershire 2010-10-30 01:36
OK, first an answer to why Sam didn't tell Dean he couldn't feel. I actually know a guy who doesn't react emotionally. He dated a friend of mine and in the year they were together he never got angry, never laughed, never got sad, frustrated, nothing. A living Vulcan. I kid you not. And Sam was acting just like him. The same sort of logic was why my friend broke up with this guy. When he first met a person, he made a point of asking a LOT of questions, which made you feel like "wow, this fellow is interested in me. Cool."

Until I found out that he does that because he thinks that is what he is supposed to do in social situations. Not because he's actually interested. Sound familiar?

So I believe Sam was able to logically rationalize not telling Dean he was back for a whole year. Without emotion, whatever excuse he had would make perfect sense.

And his moments of confusion would be where he remembered he would need to act a certain way, and thus he would try, but that would then make him seem totally creepy and wrong, cause, he couldn't make it real.

Interesting thing is - he told Dean this in the first episode. It was part of the reason he wanted Dean hunting with him again. Dean just rushed in cause he cared about people and Sam didn't. We have actually known the truth from episode 1. But we didn't know, we knew it. :D

Did Sam deserve the beating Dean gave him? I don't think so. A severe tongue lashing yes, but that smack down? I couldn't watch.

As for who is behind all this.....well maybe it's not just one "person". If Samuel was in Heaven, then Crowley could not have pulled him down. An angel could certainly pull Sam from Hell, as Cass did for Dean, BUT, there is that "deal is a deal" bit between Sam and Crowley.

My bet is on a partnership between a demon and an angel. Crowley and Raphael anyone?
# Evelyn 2010-10-30 02:44
I also don't think that it is Crowley that has Sam's soul. I would think that if a Demon had Sam's soul, Castiel would probably have felt that. But then again, maybe not. Who knows at this point. But I still don't think it is Crowley. Like Mardem Jr. said, Azazel couldn't even reach inside the cage to get Lucifer and had a hard time even finding him in that cage and he would be more powerful than Crowley, so I don't believe that Crowley has the juice to do something that big. As to who has Sam's soul? No idea. But I think whoever does have his soul, is the being that brought him out of Hell, be it Death, Balthazar, Raphael, or some other entity.

Now about Sam's beating, did Sam deserve it? Heck yea. Only because Sam has knowingly been lying to Dean all this time. They were at a good point when Sam took the leap into the cage, and even though Sam can't feel emotion, he should still remember the mistrust that existed between them for most of last season and the hard road they traveled to get them both back to the point where they could trust each other again. He should have been honest with Dean about his lack of feelings and his condition from the get go. Yes, he partially told Dean what was going on in the first episode, but he should have come completely clean with Dean. And then the fact that Sam allowed him to be in harm's way, to be turned into a vamp (despite him knowing about the cure), that is just not something you let happen to your brother. All those feelings about the mistrust, Dean turning into a vamp and losing his other family, one that he truly cared about and didn't want to lose, despite him not being able to express it - I am sure the rage, anger and hurt became just too much for Dean to bear and he let it out on Sam. Maybe he was a little brutal, but I could really feel Dean's anger, frustration, and emptiness about what he has recently lost and he just couldn't hold it down any longer. He needed to let it out, he couldn't hold it in any longer, which is something he normally does, but this time, well.......what the *&#$. Besides, if Sam truly can't feel emotion, then the beating won't really bother him all that much then, will it?
# Jasminka 2010-10-30 04:15
Now, I haven't watched the episode (downloading it right now), but I can't stay away from spoilers. Being the curious cat again.

Forgive me, if my initial thoughts might be out of line, since I haven't watched it, so I'm talking into the blue of sorts...

I am quite curious how they are going to explain the living-with-no- soul thing. From a Catholic point to view (well, that't how I learned it), and I think from other religions' standpoint, man can't be alive without a soul. that's going to be a fascinating point to explain, but then again - this show has never stuck to our 'tourist' version of the bible, has it?

Yvonne had an interesting question about that personality disorder. Apart from the impossibility of the occurence of such a disorder all of a sudden (personality disorders are being formed during a - usually - traumatic youth and manifest in early adolescence, so from my viewpoint, that's out of the question) I'm curious how they want to handle this.

And even if they keep that idea, people suffering from POs never lack the possibility of feeling. They sometimes, as with the antisocial version, the ability to feel empathy, remorse etc. But they FEEL.

That brings me to another point I am not in favour of (still, perhaps wrongly, as I haven't seen it so far) - I don't believe Sam doesn't actually feel a thing. We alredy detected in him curiosity, annoyance, irritability, satisfaction. If it's indeed meant to be like that, Sam being devoid of any emotions at all, than Jared simply might to change something about his acting. He still displays emotions. But, I guess, it's fairly hard to not show any reaction at all.

I hope what they mean is that Sam can't feel empathy or the way he used to feel. I don't like the idea of seeing Jared walking around like a robot, with no facial expressions at all (like the liveliness in his face so much).

Actually, it's not possible to not feel at all. People with severe major depression of severe PTSD often speak of not being able to feel anything, but when you look closer there often is a lot of fear, sadness and the like. It's just that their perception of things altered and they get the idea of not beiing able to feel.

So, I hope in regard to psychological continuity and truth, that this is what Sam means.

Off to watch the episode now. Perhaps I'll have to take some of this back. I had to raise my head because I was not handling the suspense that well..

Cheers, Jas
# Yirabah 2010-10-30 04:52
First of all. Thanks for putting up the preview. Never able to see those on this side of the pond. Well at least not right after the shows end. So a huge THANKS from everybody outsideth US.

Last week I speculated that Sam came back soulless. Hmm, I was right on that one. Just hope that I am wrong on my other speculation that we will have to wait till the end of this season to get that problem solved.

As to who has his soul. I believe the mystery man in the preview has it. I also believe it is Raphael. We heard that he is a traditional guy. So maybe he wanted to get rid of all those extrem monsters or what they became after Luci was gone. He might have figured he needed the world's best hunter for it. But he became suburbian so he went for the second best and got him out of the cage and made a deal with him and he kept his soul in order to have a better control over him. Plus this way he became the better hunter of the two.

But since this is our special show we know sooner or later everything will be set right again (let us at least hope for that).

I also believe that there will be the time when Sam thinks that it is his fault that everything went wrong between Dean and Lisa and he will try to set things straight again for them. Gosh i was so hopeing for a thanksgiving or x-mas dinner with all of them around Lisa's table. I do need some happy moments for all of them.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-10-30 06:41
Jasminka, Yirabah, I've a favour to ask (if I can do so on here. If I can't, apologies and ignore....) My regular site to download from has let me down (EPISODE NOT UP YET!!!) so can you recommend some other one for me.

Please, please, please.....
# Yirabah 2010-10-30 07:01
Any time we can help a fellow SPN fan we are glad to to so. After all can't have you suffering.

Wisevid version will be found here:

Megaupload version here:

Happy watching. No wait. Better have some tissues handy.
# RisenShine 2010-10-30 07:54
So.... that episode was well, what I expected. The moment I found out about this "ask and they tell you the truth" plot - I just knew that Sam would lie to Dean again.
I have a hard time with this the whole "soulless" thing - because I actually don't believe in a soul - for me it's all about chemical and electrical reactions in your body. I can't believe that there could be a living thing not feeling anything. If parts of your brains are damaged you might not feel hot and cold, or pain. If some neurotransmitte rs aren't working properly you might not feel anger or joy. I think researches showed that 90 % of our "rational" thinking is just our emotional gut feeling speaking.
Sam showed emotions, but not the ones he was expected to show, so he probably meant that he can't feel single emotions like love and empathy anymore. However he can read other peoples emotions - or he wouldn't have recognized big sister's lying.
That raises a lot of questions. Has someone a remote control for Sam's actions? Can someone else control him, make him stall and smirk because he has no soul? Looks like Sam doens't have a clue why he feels "nothing". Maybe he doesn't even know that he has no soul inside. Maybe it wasn't his own desicion not telling Dean anything of it? Maybe asking for help and the thing he said about "frozing while watching Dean getting turned" was those rare occassions when the real Sam got through?

Has that someone who got him out of the cage and hell his soul? Or got his soul lost accidentally during the raising and someone else got hold of it?

If Crowley really is the one who planned that whole con, then he's really the smartest enemy they ever had and I hope he will go down because of the combined efforts of the good guys working together and not because of some stupid against all odds thing.
# Randal 2010-10-30 08:14
Alright, Pittsburgh, I can't quibble with your well thought out and highly interesting theory, but let's not completely discount the possibility that Crowley has since sold Sam's soul, perhaps to Bobby who's built up quite a manicure tab. Oh, of course she's a monster, how else do you explain the deadly toe-grip?
# triquetral 2010-10-30 08:16
I think Crowley may have *something* to do with it, but I'm not sure what. I do think he's a bit more powerful than your average 400 year old demon. Dude knows how to make a deal, and who's to say he hasn't been making a deals with a lot of beings so that he could become more powerful.

I think Raphael certainly has his eye on Sam too. Granted, we're supposed to be out of the Apocalypse season, but if Cas is right and Raphael's purpose is to go all Apocalypse Now Redux, then what better state to have Sam in than as a person who literally couldn't care less? It was Sam's ability to access his heart that overpowered Lucifer. For now, he's lost that.

I'm very interested in what the Alphas have to do with this season. I think ALL of the Alphas are procreating with intent of a hostile takeover.

This leads to who exactly is giving Samuel the orders to capture Alphas. Is it Crowley - who might not want Earth completely overturned, disturbing the natural order of souls getting sent to Hell? Souls are currency, remember, and you don't generally want the marketplace to have a going out of business sale and close up shop. And Crowley is a businessman above all else - and will be thinking long-term strategy.

I think whoever brought Samuel back resurrected him because of the knowledge the Campbells have. This season we're dealing with Uber-creatures, so we also need Uber-hunters. My hope is that the Campbell journal gets passed down to the boys - talk about a throwback to S1.

This was the first time I ever *wanted* Dean to beat the crap out of Sam, but over a dozen brutal punches were delivered - with Sam's poor head getting sent backward into a tile floor. It was overkill (and thank you writers, for giving us something we wanted, but then making us feel really sorry we ever did). I get that Dean was angry - Sam knowingly let him get turned. I get that it wasn't just about being pissed at Sam, but what he's lost with Lisa and Ben as a result of Sam's (and Dean's own) actions. [I say Dean's - because, let's face it - he knew full well what could happen if he went into a suburbia full of people while he's hungry for blood, nevermind what could happen if he goes into the house of two people he cares about. It was a dumb move.]

Anyway, my point is - Dean was enraged, but part of being a good hunter is knowing how to hone that rage in and make it useful. I know he can't really take what Sam says at face value, he needs to get confirmation. But - the viciousness... I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed in Dean.

I'm hoping next week - the writers lay more of their cards on the table and we get another step closer to the boys being back on the same page.

I have to say, this season has been excellent about getting fandom excited about the show.
# magichappening 2010-10-30 09:07
Wow. That beating was brutal. Thank you Ardeospina, for giving us a place to come to, to process.

So, it is the ‘no soul theory’. But how did he lose it and who has it? Is it something to do with the fact that he fell into Hell both body and soul, and not just a soul? I agree with Yirabah that the 'mystery man' has Sam’s soul. From last week's vision I had thought that he was the Alpha Vamp, but apparently not. But whatever he is, why is he taking an interest in Sam Winchester. And was it him that got Sam out of the cage? Why? To what end?

And why should he want Samuel as well? Or is that unrelated? I like Tigershire's suggestion of a demon-angel deal because a demon could not extract someone from Heaven. But again what is the motive? I think Crowley does know what has been going on as it is on his patch as it were, but is not perhaps primarily responsible. So, was the Samuel angle because of Raphael as Tigershire suggests or Balthazar as you suggested Ardeospina or someone else. All are definite possibilities. Is the 'mystery man' a new rogue angel? We do know angels can get people out of Hell from Castiel and Dean. Although we have been told that angels are out and monsters are in. So think the mystery man is some form of monster…

I think both Jensen and Jared were excellent this week - although as Jasminka notes, Jared does show some expressions rather than being a blank slate. Perhaps that is Jared acting as Sam acting as though he has feelings. Wow the meta hurts my head.

In Two and a Half Men I found it really odd that Dean Winchester was essentially to me playing the role of the 'girl' or a victim. Caring for the baby, hiding away, protected by Sam, no weapons. Really strange to see Dean like that. In the first episode he needed to be rescued by Sam not once but twice. And he reacted to the Campbells jibes about not being a professional with words not fists. Although the latter I think showed he has grown over this last year, but deep down he still has the temper he has always had. And I think it has been building. So after his year of domestication/d omesticity, Dean has slowly been slipping back into his skin as a Hunter and last week he killed several times and he has come to the conclusion that deep down he has not changed at all.

Dean has simultaneously been worrying about Sam and and has been unable to re-find his brother even though he is in front of him. But most importantly last week Sam deliberately put Dean in harm’s way, lied about it not once, but twice and when Sam finally admitted the truth, did not feel he had done anything serious.

So, Dean is now without his new family and has just concluded that he is not a father or a 'husband', but still a killer or put less harshly a Hunter. He is also currently effectively without his old family (Sam). Dean has lost his home (although I really hope not permanently) and his chance at anything other than a life of hunting, and his grief at this coupled with his fear for/of his brother, and the betrayal and anger at what Sam admitted to doing to him (which led to Dean destroying his 'family' with Lisa and Ben) tipped Dean over the edge. And he snapped.

This rage seemed real and honest and Dean. Sam’s eventual confession and plea for help seemed honest too. And Sam’s lack of self-defense to the beating seems an admission of guilt in the only way he can express it at the moment. Perhaps the truth really will set them free. Come on Winchesters! You can beat this together. You are stronger together, remember?
# Jasminka 2010-10-30 10:34
Enchanting Tim, the links Yirabah gave you are the same I use.
I hope you were able to access any of those! consoling hug, jas
# Karen 2010-10-30 12:32
I haven’t read anyone else thoughts yet, I wanted to get mine down before being influenced by everyone else. So here it is.
Well we have one question answered.
On the prospect that Sam is soulless does explain Sam’s lack of compassion, conscience and empathy. However I would like to understand more about the connection between a soul and emotions/feelin gs. Are the only emotions associated with your soul, just sensitivity, compassion and empathy? So emotions like anger, jealousy, panic, scared, laughter, concern are part of something else in your body or your brain? It’s just that Sam has displayed these emotions. Maybe it was all an act but to me he seem legitimate when he was annoyed at Castiel for not answering him. And he seem panicked with Bobby-John started crying in the grocery store. And impressed with Dean’s fatherly instincts with Ben’s and with Bobby-John.

With the issue of Sam being soulless, this now leads to new questions.
Did Sam make a deal? Can Sam’s soul be taken from him without him making a deal or even knowing? He was already in hell, so maybe they don’t need his consent. Maybe knowing Sam’s nature and that he would never agree to any deal they just did what they wanted without his knowledge. I just really believe that Sam doesn’t know who freed him or why.

Which now opens the questions of who, how and why.
Why Sam? Why did it have to be him.
And who did this? Is it Raphael, Crowley, God?
Then there is how? What does it take to free someone from the pit?
This isn’t just hell here, we’re talking about the cage that held Lucifer.
Can an Archangel or a mere demon have the ability to free Sam from the pit, without the horsemen’s rings or having a righteous man shed blood in Hell to open the first seal and etc..
Is there other ways to open the cage? If Crowley could let Sam out what’s stopping other Demons from freeing Lucifer? And if an archangel could open the door, why didn’t Raphael and Michael do it when they wanted Lucifer out to start the apocalypse. Why were they all waiting for this destiny crap with Dean opening the first seal?
I do have to lean more to Raphael or God more than Crowley only because of what it takes to free someone from the pit. But why free Sam and why have him soulless?
I’m at a lost, just too many questions and too many things that don’t add up for me. So I’m going to wait this one out and see what Sere and Co put out on the table.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-10-30 12:38
Yirabah and Jasminka, thanks a million for those. Hugely hugely appreciated.

Now I just need to psych myself up to watch it.

Cheers again, dears!
# Mandinha! 2010-10-30 12:42
this sounds crazy,but maybe Samuel has Sam's soul or know sometihng really important about it and that's why he's back!!!
# Amie 2010-10-30 12:59
Extreme brotherly mistrust and physical beating mixed with angry dentist murder and cannibalistic godesses. ugh, it hurts so good!

Okay, so Sam has no soul. And the godess can't tell the difference between a souless human and something that is not human. And I guess that can also explain why he would be immune to the truth curse.

It could be Crowley maybe, but i think it is a new bad guy. The man Samuel is hunting for, the mystery man, would have brought them back and left them or just Sam souless to better achieve his goals, whatever that might be. I don't know how anyone besides an angel or a demon (or God) could do something like that. Maybe it's a cooperation between Crowley (or raphael) and the mystery man for some unknown purposes. Building a "better" world like the post apocalypse would do. I guess I'm just stating the obvious here, there are so many interesting theories!

I hope for a relieving moment when Sam gets his soul back. I'll just focus on the hypothetical happy moments to come! :D

and I'm just glad we're finally getting some answers. These past episodes have been so heartbreaking, they have been my weekley cathrasis, haha, I don't know if that is healthy or not :P
# Bevie 2010-10-30 15:56
I can't believe it is Crowley. In season 4 we were told that only an angel can rescue anyone from the hotbox.

I keep thinking about the final scene in Swan Song, when Sam appeared in front of Lisa's house and the streetlight shattered. The lights shatter when angels appear. That could mean it was an angel who placed Sam there.

And I don't think Dean overdid it in punching Sam's lights out. He deserved every punch after not coming clean with Dean immediately as soon as he got out and not after a whole year has passed. They could have been figuring out the problem for a year. He let Dean get turned, all the while with the odious smirk, and therefore not caring what it would do to Dean's happiness with Lisa and Ben. How awful for Dean to think that he might have killed them or turned them while not in control of himself. And Sam couldn't care less. If he is emotionless, has he forgotten everything that happened when he did have emotions? He was cold, calculating and entirely cruel without caring what might happen.

I want his soul back complete as soon as possible. Don't know how much more angst and sleepless nights I can take worrying about two. fictional. characters !!!! :o

Just what was that about Gabriel's horn being stolen? Does that mean Gabe is in the mix somewhere? :-?
# nancyL 2010-10-30 16:06
First off, thanks Ardeospina for getting this started, because after seeing the preview for next week, I was jumping up and down on the couch, saying 'we were right, SAM HAS NO SOUL. Go us' :D :D :D

I do not think that Crowley has Sam's soul, but I do think he is involved somehow ('a deal's a deal).

Tigershire, you are right, in 'Exile..', Sam told Dean that he felt better with Dean. With SUPERNATURAL, the clues are right there, but you don't realize it, until several episodes (even seasons) later. ;-) ;-) ie: Mary's apology in 'Home'. You are also right that Crowley couldn't get Grandpa out of Heaven, therefore an angel has to be involved as well. Maybe Raphael, maybe Adam and/or Michael?

Sam deserved the beatdown by Dean :P (ducking the tomatoes coming at me) If Sam had told Dean right from the beginning (maybe not a year ago, but from 'Exile'), then Dean would have understood and together they would have dealt with it. But, Sam kept this big secret to himself (you think he would have learned by now) and Dean has now lost the trust and love of Lisa and Ben which he had depended on for the last year without Sam. To say that Dean is pissed at Sam, is putting it mildly. But I also think, that now that Sam has come clean, maybe they can mend the fences and be brothers again.

But since the writers of SUPERNATURAL
# nancyL 2010-10-30 16:15
(my computer got processed by a demon) :D
finishing my thought:

Since the writers of SUPERNATURAL like to torture us, we learn the truth about Soulless!Sam, only to wait five episodes to find out who, why, how.. and another five until Sam and Dean are back together.

But, we had faith in Mr. Eric and so we will have faith in Ms. Sera. But along the way, keep the tissues handy.
# Scullspeare 2010-10-30 17:50
I really hope Sam didn't voluntarily sell his soul - unless there was a damn good reason.

I'm wondering if his soul was 'stolen' in the process of separating Sam from Lucifer when he was freed from the cage. We know souls are considered valuable currency in the post-apocalypti c world, and Sam's (I'm guessing) would definitely be a must-have among demonic and angelic collectors.

It will also be fascinating to find out if Sam was telling the truth when he said in the season opener that he didn't know how he was freed, or by whom. Methinks that's all tied into his missing soul, too.
# NanT 2010-10-30 18:49
I just want to add my two cents to the "beatdown" argument (though I know it's already been "beaten" to death...)

First of all, the show has a history of its characters overreacting in anger (remember their battle in When the Levee Breaks, which Sam continued *after* Dean was on the floor; and Cas's beating of Dean in Point of No Return, just because he was disappointed in him?) But the main point here, I think, is not just Dean's anger at the current situation, or even the whole past year. Dean's had *three years* of pent-up anger at Sam, starting with Ruby in season 4 and ending with this most recent event, which, to him would be just another betrayal in a long line. The beating wasn't a "you did something wrong and I'm going to smack you," it was finally letting loose some of that rage; but he still managed to stop himself on his own, without any pleading looks or reminders of the old Sam. I'm not justifying or saying it was right, just that it was understandable. And yes, it was hard to watch, on many levels.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2010-10-30 19:21
One or two quick obervations before I process properly tomorrow:

1. I don't know why but I'm not entirely convinced that next weeks promo is 'true'. As was stated, Castiel could pick up Deans not Dean (The End) with little or no mojo but he can't tell that Sam doesn't have a soul. I also don't think that the producers would have a reveal this monumental in a promo. Seems a little off. Trust no-one y'all...

2. Ok, I trust Castiel but.... I don't know about this. If he's a full mojoed angel again, where do his priorities now lie? Is it with Sam and Dean or something bigger.

3. I think Sam was definitely telling the truth at the end when he said he couldn't feel any more. It's not as if telling the truth would gain him anything at that stage but the last line about needing help felt a little... contrived? Like he knew it's what Dean wanted to hear. I dunno....

4. Dean, you have a liver to think about. Maybe cut back on the hard stuff, eh?

5. That flaking you gave Sam was harsh and over the top. Yep, I get it's pent up anger and frustration of possible 5 years or more of frustration but c'mon.... the guy was unconscious and still you kept hitting.

6. This bit will sound harsh (sorry) but I was just wondering, does Dean have manic depressive disorder? He seems most comfortable in situations where he is miserable and invariably PUTS himself in situations which will lead to him being miserable. Someone bigger and better than me might have an idea (Jasminka, you know who I'm talking about....)

7. Re: the beating. Sorry about this but Dean, I get that you blame Sam for the turning and you'd be right but dude, you choose to go back to the house, not Sam. Putting Ben and Lisa in danger is all on you.

8. Speaking of, I like Lisa. She's got balls. She verbalised what no-one else has dared to. Sam and Deans relationship is dangerous, both to themselves and others.

9. And Dean didn't tell her about Sam and hell. Okay then.

10. Go Bobby, you make time for your pedicures. You spend more time running around for the two boys, you deserve them.

11. There was so much to process re Sam in this episode it's going to take a little more time to process but can I just say that I think Sam Winchester is now the most intriguing flavour taco ever.
# nancyL 2010-10-30 19:36
You are so right NanT, since Dean found out that Sam was going behind his back to be with Ruby, he has held his temper and for the most part his fists in check.

Thru season five, Dean was just trying to keep it together so that they could deal with Lucifer.

But this year, there was Sam being back a year (with Bobby knowing) before telling Dean, the baby as bait, torturing of Aaron, Dean as bait, and then to find out that Sam still wants to keep secrets, Dean has three plus years of frustration inside that he had to get out.

Dean did stop and I am sure that he feels guilty for beating on Sam, but I think that he feels like he finally get a little pay back for 'Levee'.

Whatever, I just want the drama over with. I want Sam and Dean to hug, and be the loving brothers they were at the end of 'Fresh Blood'. Do you guys think that this is possible, or am I just dreaming? :cry::
# nancyL 2010-10-30 19:40
Tim the Enchanter, 'Dean, you have a liver to think about. Maybe cut back on the hard stuff' LOL. And what was with Cas pouring more in his glass? Was Cas trying to get Dean drunk or what? :lol:
# elle2 2010-10-30 20:50
I'm in the Sam totally deserved that beat down camp.

He may not have felt anything but he knew something was wrong with him. He's known all along. Instead of 'fessing up to Dean that he knew something was wrong with him he told him time and time again that he was fine. He allowed Dean to get turned into a vampire, nearly kill Ben which ultimately cost him Lisa and Ben as part of his life and he's lied time and time again when clearly he is capable of telling the truth.

Now, where is this all idea. I hope Sam had no part of selling his soul but rather that it was ripped unwillingly from him and also unknown to him. For if we find out that Sam knows he lost his soul then all his former statements of "I don't know what's wrong with me" are also lies.

I'm of the belief that Sera and company will keep it that Sam lost his soul through no effort of his own as well as no knowledge of his own. They may be willing to take the characters into the depths of cruelty (Dean as torturer for one) but they have yet to make them unredeemable. Sam knowingly selling his soul and also knowingly knowing that that's what is wrong with him would put him in the unredeemable camp for he is clearly capable of asking for help; but has chosen not to.

Dean gave him the beatdown he deserved and then some (I'll agree, 14 slams is too much but that came from Dean letting loose all his anger and anguish that he's kept pressed down to long. When that bubbles up it's an explosion that would have been less had he not held it in. Sorry, Sam, you deserved most of what you got, not all of it though.

Don't worry though, Cas returns next week and from the previews Sam is looking gorgeous again, me thinks once Cas discovers Sam's soul is missing, he does some angelic healing.
anonymous N
# anonymous N 2010-10-31 03:31
I completely agree with Tim the enchanter. I am not very eloquent or succinct but your post is almost same as my thoughts.I didn't like Dean venting his anger on Sam . It would have been better to vent his anger on the personthing that is responsible for this even if then we come to know it is Sam then. It was like Sam doesn't feel anything , knows something is wrong but doesn't or cannot bring himself to care for it and then gets his butt kicked and the attack continues even after he is unconscious like a punching bag when he was not even defending himself.....He is the one who has lost his soul( according to spoilers) and he has to bear the attack.Tired of Sam's choices turning out to be always waiting when they completely unravel Sam's mystery .Hope they explain everything just not like how it was done in season4 .
# magichappening 2010-10-31 03:56
Tim the Enchanter, really liked your post. I have re-watched the episode since I first posted and I have to say I agree to a large extent with your points 1,2,4,7, 8 and 10. I have also been wondering about the soul reveal in a promo. Seems odd on reflection. And what are the regrettable things that Castiel is compelled to do? Is lying to Dean one of them? And I agree that it was Dean's choice to go to Lisa's after he was vamped so he is not blameless. But I would say he did not intend harm, Sam did. I also like Lisa a lot and I wish Dean had told her about the vamping. Finally, I support Bobby's right to pedicures.
# Shadow 2010-10-31 11:23
I think Dean´s reactions over the top (the beating to a bloody pulp)
I think Sam shouldn`t lie and when he is lying I would like to know why
I think Lisa had a meeting with Sam last year and she said Sam should stay away from his brother
I think Sam doesn`t want to feel anymore but is a dangerous hunter now
I think Dean drinks to much
I think they both have issues with each other and I want to find out Sam`s issues
I think love is still there between the brothers
I think a part of Dean`s soul is missing since he was in hell
I think Sam needs help (he says he needs help for Dean)
I think I am intrigued again into the show after the vampire episode I was right before to through the towel
I think some more Sam POV would be very very nice
I think Dean is making himself believing he needs normal

I wish the brothers back on the same level and I really loved the last episode (finally)
# Shadow 2010-10-31 11:26
instead of "through the towel "I mean "throw", sorry!!!!
# Shadow 2010-10-31 11:28
instead of "through the towel "I mean "throw", sorry!!!!
Anna W
# Anna W 2010-10-31 13:27
Wow, what an episode!

So happy that we got some answers and congrats to all who guessed the souless theory! Job well done. The thing I was most worried about with them following that storyline was that they would still make Sam human and I was glad to see that they didn't. I'm okay with the way this is going and looking forward to see where they take it.

I also was very disturbed by Dean's beatdown of Sam. I understand that he was upset about everything, but holy cow. That was just out of control. Was it because he figured Sam isn't human and it was okay? Or was it because maybe he let Dean the Torturer come out? Whatever the reason, yowza!

As for where is Sam's soul and who has it? It could be Crowley, but I doubt it. I just think he'd be too obvious. Same goes for any of the angels. If anything, those players will fight to control Sam now that he's the ultimate fighting machine. It has to be someone super powerful and someone who has the ability to raise someone from the dead and also control their souls. My guess? Death. Again, I could be wrong, but I like thinking outside the box and bringing other options to the table. That's just me. :-)
Julia M.
# Julia M. 2010-10-31 16:16
For me, who has Sam's soul depends on whether or not Sam went into Lucifer's cage in Swan Song. I think it's possible that the cage only holds angels and that Sam was thrown in "regular" Hell when Lucifer landed into the cage. If that's the case, then it leaves the field wide open for Crowley or any angel to have done the deed. I also hope that Sam didn't make a deal, although I fail to see how that would make him unredeemable. Dean tortured souls in Hell, is that any better? He sold his soul as well before that, for admittedly selfish reasons, and everybody forgave him. Hell, well, it's Hell. I wouldn't be surprised if Sam would do anything to get out of it, same as Dean would have.

Now, if Sam went into the cage, I think that the only beings powerful enough to open it are God and Death. I think it could be Death, for whatever reason, and Death now holds his soul.

About the beating, I was shocked last week to read so many comments about Sam deserving to be beaten up, basically for coming back from Hell damaged. Because it's what it boils down to. Sam was in Hell, and whatever he is now is a direct result of jumping into the pit with Lucifer inside of him. Of course he's going to be messed up. He deserves help and compassion, not a beatdown. I understand that Dean was angry, I do, but this was way over the top, and not the first time that Dean hits Sam in anger. I want it to stop. There's no excuse for that kind of violence. None.
# Yvonne 2010-10-31 20:17
Had a thought about that beating. It isn't the first time we've seen Dean take out what is going on inside on something he loves. Remember in 'Everybody Loves a Clown', how he pummled the Impala?

I realize that as beloved as the Impala is, she is still far down the list from Sam. But it's something Dean does. The Impala was a gift from his father, the man who told him he may have to kill his brother...and then died. Sam told Dean something is wrong with me, I completely totalled what chance at happiness you may have had and I just don't care. The Impala was a shell, a representative piece of John Winchester. Sambody is a shell of who he was, a poor representative of who he used to be.

Or I could be full of crap and been thinking bout this show too much. :D
# CitizenKane2 2010-10-31 23:28
Just wanted to drop a short note. I won't be able to watch "You Can't Handle the Truth" and "Family Matters" (long story :P), but I managed to catch snippets of "You Can't Handle the Truth" on Youtube.

It's great to see the Sam-Dean story get moving along (finally !) and hopefully we will get the "whole" / "old" Sam back by mid-Season. I don't think I will enjoy watching 22 espisodes of "soulless" Sam.

It's also good to see that the Sam-Dean story is likley to be linked to the Alpha story (and perhaps to the civil wars in heaven and hell), if the clip for "Family Matters" is accurately interpreted.

At Anna W - I like the idea of "Death" (the horseman) being the puppet master. :-)
# CitizenKane2 2010-11-01 03:31
A thought just occured to me - does Sam actually want his soul back ? Or more accuarately, does Sam actually want to "feel" again ?

I mean, on one hand Sam says that he's a better hunter (because he can't feel), on the other hand, he says he need help (I'm asumming that this part - about needing help - isn't a lie, although it's hard to tell).
# Jasminka 2010-11-01 06:14
Enchanting Tim, I just saw your above post, a bit late, I know, but I didnt want to read any of the posts before writing my own stuff. You might want to check out my Open Couch which I finished with some pains yesterday night. I am addressing Dean's state of mind there. Can't really repeat it now here, as I still feel exhausted from it all - what is this show doing to me? to Us? Dang....

heavily breathing, Jas
# CitizenKane2 2010-11-04 00:07
So ... in the new promotional pictures for Season 6 released by CW, why does Dean appear to have a halo around his head, and Sam a white snake on his arm ? And why is Castiel dressed in black ? :P
# Tigershire 2010-11-07 01:10
Sadly I think the reason Cass is in black is due to that story about the wardrobe being stolen down in LA, prior to them arriving to do the promos....