A Winchester Historical Perspective
About me: It’s a fair cop – I am a Sam girl, but I also love Dean very much. I’m not telling you what to think. These are my thoughts that I wanted to share.
In the wake of “The Purge” (or as I like to think of it – The Purrrrrge) this is just me thinking things through for a bit of perspective.
Has Dean ever been possessed? Has he ever had control taken away from him and been used to murder good people? Sam has been demon-possessed (Meg) and used to kill hunters. He has been unknowingly angel-possessed and used to kill friends.
Sam when faced with the woman he loved asking him to end her life because there was no cure for being the werewolf that she could not control – he did. Because it was what she wanted and he couldn’t see another way, even though it was not what he wanted. The choice was taken away from him. He hurt.
Sam tried everything in his power to get Dean back from Hell, but the demons would not even consider a straight swop. He had no choice.
Sam thought he alone had started the end of the world – although we later realised he couldn’t have done it without Dean ( breaking the first seal). He thought that Ruby could help him stop Dean going to Hell. Then he believed that she could at least help him avenge Dean and stop the apocalypse. In fact she lied to him and manipulated him (shocker – “Demon!”) – to all intents and purposes she possessed him too.
Ultimately Sam chose to say yes to Lucifer, overpowered him and jumped into the Abyss with him. To atone for starting the Apocalypse. – He felt he had no other choice…
He was brought back from hell, but without his soul. When eventually his body and mind was reunited with his soul he realised so much more guilt because of what he did when he wasn’t in full possession of himself.
When Cas turned bad and tried to stop Sam from helping Dean he fought his way out of his coma and his world came crashing down with his Soul wall. He nearly died when Hallucifernations would not let him sleep. All he could do was accept death until Cas returned to his old self and took his “crazy” away.
When Dick Roman and the Leviathans were finally defeated Sam didn’t have anything or anyone left. Why didn’t Sam look for Dean? Did he try? Did he know where to start? Did he think if Dean had gone it must be to Heaven? Did he think it would be wrong to deny him that? I wonder if we will ever get some Sam flashback exegesis?
Before when the Trickster took Dean away from Sam, in Sam’s perception for about 6 months Sam was on a mission. He knew Dean was headed for Hell and he never gave up. He worked out that he would have to track down the Trickster. He became an obsessed killing machine until he tracked him down and made him reverse that fateful Wednesday. (which came after seeing his brother die over and over again on Mystery Spot Tuesday). …obsessed? Or possessed in a way by the Trickster? To the point where for a second he might actually have sacrificed Bobby to get Dean back?
Sam has gone through so much. Sam does understand the power of love.
Sam is loved sacrificially by Dean. Literally. Dean has always been there to look after Sam, to bring him up. He has been brother, father and mother to Sam. He took on board his charge of protection to his very core. Then John told Dean that if he couldn’t save Sammy he would have to kill him. Time and again Dean has saved even where others would have pulled the trigger. And the bad guys know this: even when Sam asked him to pull the trigger knowing he had killed when possessed, Dean couldn’t do it. Dean gave up Anna for Sam. That was the only leverage the angels had.
Dean saved Sam from dying, but not from the horror of possession- of becoming a monster.
When it comes down to it, Dean believes that Sam is His. Dean possesses Sam. Dean wants to control Sam. Not out of hate, but out of a deep abiding love. He just could not accept that when death visited the last time Sam was ready. Sam just didn’t want Anyone else to get hurt – to die – because of him. He couldn’t see an alternative…until Dean, with an act of desperation offers it to him.
Even after the initial corrupted angel possession I thought this could be the answer. Sam would be able to heal …and the relationship would have been that much more developed if Dean had had the courage to tell Sam straightaway what he had done. – given Sam the choice. However, Dean would not let Sam choose because he thought he would reject the angel and die.
Sam did choose to live if it were possible without causing more carnage. He trusted Dean. Dean should have trusted Sam with full disclosure and let the chips fall where they may. Dean should have trusted Sam enough to let him choose.
But Dean was frightened. Frightened that after all this he would lose the person who mean the world, meant Life, to him. He was afraid to give Sam that choice and risk losing him.
Sams’s words at the end of the purge may have sounded harsh to Dean. They may have hollowed him out because of how much he loves Sam, but Sam was not being unkind. He was calling Dean out on his motives and choices. Sam is a grown man too and if not still feeling very much like the little brother must have at least shadows of feeling possessed.
This leads me on to: Sam and an anti-possession tattoo. I would LOVE to see that scene – Sam getting a tattoo…. But I wonder where the writers are going with this?
Finally – in the same day- Sam was host to both Crowley and Gadreel. Crowley should never be trusted. He did apparently leave voluntarily but I don’t think the force with which Sam ejected Gadreel when he knew about him would have allowed anyone/ anything but Sam to stay. With all Sam’s experience, with his latent psychic power, with his inner strength that -when aware of the possession- overcame Lucifer… has Sam now got the power of anti-possession? The hard way? Ultimately could Dean’s endless love have given him this gift?
Ok that last paragraph was getting a bit waffley, but – Layers!
Taken as a whole story, there is so much loaded into that last scene of The Purge. Sam is tired, so weary, honest, seeking an equal transparent deep brotherly bond with Dean that goes way further than Dean fixing him regularly.
And of course Dean was cut to the core hearing that, but he needed to hear it, needs to own his actions as well as his love. As well as trusting Sam with his own choices, he can surely also hopefully make Sam see just how much he is loved and why Dean did what he did.
I love Dean. I may well have made the same decisions, God knows I love Sam, maybe more even than Dean does and would totally want him to be alive and with me. This doesn’t make the taking away of his choice right.
I need Dean to really understand what Sam is saying and I need Sam to realise how desperately, intensely, passionately he is loved.
I believe they can grow stronger and closer. Brothers.
Thank you for this. For me, this is the first opinion piece that truly “gets it” about the situation
Thank you so much for this. It is how I see Sam and how I understand his words and actions.
Thank you so much for this. It is how I see Sam and how I understand his words and actions.
I appreciate your efforts to justify what we saw in The Purge in character / canon terms, but I am unable to do that because to me the boys (particularly Sam) are acting so completely out of character that it doesn’t feel real or remotely convincing.
IMO to attempt to explain what happened within the story (with all the mental and imaginative gymnastics that requires) lets the writers completely off the hook. We the audience shouldn’t have to be bending over backwards, trying to make connections, trying to squeeze something recognisable out of the way Sam spoke and acted in this ep. Good drama doesn’t need the audience to fill in the gaps. When writing is good and characterisation consistent every word and action the characters say and do feel organic and believable. That is what makes the characters feel like real people and THAT is what makes us emotionally engage.
In our heads we all know that Sam and Dean are puppets and the writers are the puppet masters. But for most of its run, for me at least, the writers have been invisible and all I’ve seen were 2 messed up, hugely sympathetic hero brothers who had an unbreakable bond and who’d do anything for each other. However since JC took over I’ve been increasingly noticing the strings. I will never ever believe that Sam wouldn’t look for Dean. And I’ll never forgive JC for how much that decision damaged my faith in the writers and diminished my enjoyment. But he pulled it back in the 2nd half of s8 and Sacrifice was wonderful.
But that beautiful, raw, honest moment in the church, when the boys willingly (a fact that the writers and Sam seem to have forgotten) chose each other is now being corrupted and turned into something wrong and manipulative. So again the promised ‘repaired relationship’ didn’t last the hiatus (see also ends of s5, and s7) and we are being told we still need to destroy the brothers bond in order to ‘rebuild it’.
The problem the writers face is that, in fact, the relationship was never as broken or dysfunctional as they need to make it seem. So they are making the characters react in an exaggerated and unbelievable way. And they are giving too much weight to the issues and not enough to all the good stuff; the underlying love, all the things they’ve done for each other that were wonderful, unselfish and worthwhile, and the sheer weight of their shared history. There is no way, angry as he is, that Sam would deliberately make Dean feel so utterly unloved and unappreciated. Nor would he so egregiously misrepresent past events as he did in that awful exchange with Dean.
My other issue with what is going on here is that the writers seem to have decided that codependency is bad. Now I personally don’t agree that is true for Dean and Sam (we’re not talking in real life here). But regardless of my or anyone else’s personal view on codependency is, it is a fact that for most of the run of this show – certainly in the Kripke and Gamble eras – is has NOT been shown that way. It has been seen as a strength. And when they doubted that eg at the end of s3 or in s5, the writers have given a strong, irrefutable message to us, that they were wrong to doubt it. That their bond is a strength NOT a weakness. They keep each other human, their love for each other saved the world. Rightly or wrongly, for 7 seasons of this show the brothers bond, how far they’d go for each other, was shown to be heroic and ‘a good thing’. Now it seems JC wants to change the channel. But there is a weight of history canon and characterisation in his way. So to do that he has to make the characters act like strangers, devalue previous events that we cheered at the time, and generally shift the whole underlying premis of this show.
I don’t want that and I simply don’t believe he and his writing team have the skills to pull it off.
I appreciate your efforts to justify what we saw in The Purge in character / canon terms, but I am unable to do that because to me the boys (particularly Sam) are acting so completely out of character that it doesn’t feel real or remotely convincing.
IMO to attempt to explain what happened within the story (with all the mental and imaginative gymnastics that requires) lets the writers completely off the hook. We the audience shouldn’t have to be bending over backwards, trying to make connections, trying to squeeze something recognisable out of the way Sam spoke and acted in this ep. Good drama doesn’t need the audience to fill in the gaps. When writing is good and characterisation consistent every word and action the characters say and do feel organic and believable. That is what makes the characters feel like real people and THAT is what makes us emotionally engage.
In our heads we all know that Sam and Dean are puppets and the writers are the puppet masters. But for most of its run, for me at least, the writers have been invisible and all I’ve seen were 2 messed up, hugely sympathetic hero brothers who had an unbreakable bond and who’d do anything for each other. However since JC took over I’ve been increasingly noticing the strings. I will never ever believe that Sam wouldn’t look for Dean. And I’ll never forgive JC for how much that decision damaged my faith in the writers and diminished my enjoyment. But he pulled it back in the 2nd half of s8 and Sacrifice was wonderful.
But that beautiful, raw, honest moment in the church, when the boys willingly (a fact that the writers and Sam seem to have forgotten) chose each other is now being corrupted and turned into something wrong and manipulative. So again the promised ‘repaired relationship’ didn’t last the hiatus (see also ends of s5, and s7) and we are being told we still need to destroy the brothers bond in order to ‘rebuild it’.
The problem the writers face is that, in fact, the relationship was never as broken or dysfunctional as they need to make it seem. So they are making the characters react in an exaggerated and unbelievable way. And they are giving too much weight to the issues and not enough to all the good stuff; the underlying love, all the things they’ve done for each other that were wonderful, unselfish and worthwhile, and the sheer weight of their shared history. There is no way, angry as he is, that Sam would deliberately make Dean feel so utterly unloved and unappreciated. Nor would he so egregiously misrepresent past events as he did in that awful exchange with Dean.
My other issue with what is going on here is that the writers seem to have decided that codependency is bad. Now I personally don’t agree that is true for Dean and Sam (we’re not talking in real life here). But regardless of my or anyone else’s personal view on codependency is, it is a fact that for most of the run of this show – certainly in the Kripke and Gamble eras – is has NOT been shown that way. It has been seen as a strength. And when they doubted that eg at the end of s3 or in s5, the writers have given a strong, irrefutable message to us, that they were wrong to doubt it. That their bond is a strength NOT a weakness. They keep each other human, their love for each other saved the world. Rightly or wrongly, for 7 seasons of this show the brothers bond, how far they’d go for each other, was shown to be heroic and ‘a good thing’. Now it seems JC wants to change the channel. But there is a weight of history canon and characterisation in his way. So to do that he has to make the characters act like strangers, devalue previous events that we cheered at the time, and generally shift the whole underlying premis of this show.
I don’t want that and I simply don’t believe he and his writing team have the skills to pull it off.
BIG thanks. It’s such a relief to read this & feel I’m not alone… that there are still some people who can consider both perspectives without being blinded by their own personal bias. I love both brothers. They are both heroic. They are both leaders. They both love one another, but have a different way of showing it. They are both flawed & make mistakes. They both do the very best they can under impossible circumstances. I will watch their story until the very end, but I’m very close to foregoing the reviews. Thanks again 🙂
BIG thanks. It’s such a relief to read this & feel I’m not alone… that there are still some people who can consider both perspectives without being blinded by their own personal bias. I love both brothers. They are both heroic. They are both leaders. They both love one another, but have a different way of showing it. They are both flawed & make mistakes. They both do the very best they can under impossible circumstances. I will watch their story until the very end, but I’m very close to foregoing the reviews. Thanks again 🙂
I agree with you….but in a way I also agree with Geordiegirl. I think it’s gotten neyond obvious that the bad outweighs the good in this relationship. It’s large stretches of bad with small moments of good that are getting smaller and further betweent he bad.
Maybe…Dean was right in season 5. They both should pick a hemisphere and seperate for good.
I agree with you….but in a way I also agree with Geordiegirl. I think it’s gotten neyond obvious that the bad outweighs the good in this relationship. It’s large stretches of bad with small moments of good that are getting smaller and further betweent he bad.
Maybe…Dean was right in season 5. They both should pick a hemisphere and seperate for good.
[quote name=”amyh”]I agree with you….but in a way I also agree with Geordiegirl. I think it’s gotten neyond obvious that the bad outweighs the good in this relationship. It’s large stretches of bad with small moments of good that are getting smaller and further betweent he bad.
Maybe…Dean was right in season 5. They both should pick a hemisphere and seperate for good.[/quote]
I think you’ve misunderstood me. I was saying the opposite ie that the good massively outweighs the bad. Problem is that that is an inconvenient truth for these writers so they’re trying to rewrite history and warp the characters to make it true that their codependency has been bad and selfish when in fact it has been heroic and has saved the world.
[quote]I agree with you….but in a way I also agree with Geordiegirl. I think it’s gotten neyond obvious that the bad outweighs the good in this relationship. It’s large stretches of bad with small moments of good that are getting smaller and further betweent he bad.
Maybe…Dean was right in season 5. They both should pick a hemisphere and seperate for good.[/quote]
I think you’ve misunderstood me. I was saying the opposite ie that the good massively outweighs the bad. Problem is that that is an inconvenient truth for these writers so they’re trying to rewrite history and warp the characters to make it true that their codependency has been bad and selfish when in fact it has been heroic and has saved the world.
Thanks Suenash you make me feel better from all the negative things that have been said.
I really (want to) believe that this time it is up to Sam to do the saving and that his way (rethinking their relationship so that they both understand that love with no limits is more destructive than anything) they both will win (eventually). And I think their bond will be stronger for it, and maybe the show can go back to being fun again…
Whereas Dean’s way, which is the way it has always been (‘family’ but by Dean’s rules, with Sam not dying being the number one rule) they will stagnate until they destroy the world.
I think Death had an important thing to say about how Dean (but it applies to both) has gotten so used to getting his life back he thinks he can just throw it like a rubber ball. Most people know they only have one chance and they make the most of it. Maybe that is something all hunters but especially these two need really come to understand.
Thanks Suenash you make me feel better from all the negative things that have been said.
I really (want to) believe that this time it is up to Sam to do the saving and that his way (rethinking their relationship so that they both understand that love with no limits is more destructive than anything) they both will win (eventually). And I think their bond will be stronger for it, and maybe the show can go back to being fun again…
Whereas Dean’s way, which is the way it has always been (‘family’ but by Dean’s rules, with Sam not dying being the number one rule) they will stagnate until they destroy the world.
I think Death had an important thing to say about how Dean (but it applies to both) has gotten so used to getting his life back he thinks he can just throw it like a rubber ball. Most people know they only have one chance and they make the most of it. Maybe that is something all hunters but especially these two need really come to understand.
This is the best Sam POV that is out there! THANK YOU!
I have always understood Dean better, but I have equally felt for Sam. However, I can easily make sense of Dean but Sam always takes me more time to work out. I deeply appreciate your view of Sam without the Dean bashing because, as I mentioned before, I feel both brothers deeply, but have always been quicker to understand Dean (not excuse him, just understand him) as I have young siblings.
I offer you a fresh salad as a thank you!
This is the best Sam POV that is out there! THANK YOU!
I have always understood Dean better, but I have equally felt for Sam. However, I can easily make sense of Dean but Sam always takes me more time to work out. I deeply appreciate your view of Sam without the Dean bashing because, as I mentioned before, I feel both brothers deeply, but have always been quicker to understand Dean (not excuse him, just understand him) as I have young siblings.
I offer you a fresh salad as a thank you!
“Has Dean ever been possessed? Has he ever had control taken away from him and been used to murder good people?”
Dean was turned into a vampire so yes, he did have control taken from him then, and he almost hurt Lisa and Ben. Dean was also possessed in Southern Comfort. Also in Simon Said and Sex & Violence he was supernaturally forced to do things against his will for which he had no control.
“Then John told Dean that if he couldn’t save Sammy he would have to kill him. “
Right. I think this is the most significant influence over Dean to this day. IMO Dean feels that if he doesn’t save Sam then it’s the same as if he’s killed him.
And I didn’t see this mentioned, Dean DID let Sam choose to die in Swan Song. There was no controlling him then. He accepted Sam’s choice to die. But then, Sam was brought back without a soul and so once again, Dean was placed in a position of saving Sam.
The writers need to stop placing Dean in situations that require him to use supernatural means to save Sam from death because obviously – unless they write Sam out of the show – Dean will have to do whatever the writing dictates i.e. save Sam.
“Has Dean ever been possessed? Has he ever had control taken away from him and been used to murder good people?”
Dean was turned into a vampire so yes, he did have control taken from him then, and he almost hurt Lisa and Ben. Dean was also possessed in Southern Comfort. Also in Simon Said and Sex & Violence he was supernaturally forced to do things against his will for which he had no control.
“Then John told Dean that if he couldn’t save Sammy he would have to kill him. “
Right. I think this is the most significant influence over Dean to this day. IMO Dean feels that if he doesn’t save Sam then it’s the same as if he’s killed him.
And I didn’t see this mentioned, Dean DID let Sam choose to die in Swan Song. There was no controlling him then. He accepted Sam’s choice to die. But then, Sam was brought back without a soul and so once again, Dean was placed in a position of saving Sam.
The writers need to stop placing Dean in situations that require him to use supernatural means to save Sam from death because obviously – unless they write Sam out of the show – Dean will have to do whatever the writing dictates i.e. save Sam.
thanks for this. a positive perspective. we are all in such need of this and i appreciate your words.
i love sam. always have. i always saw him as the underdog and i tend to root for the underdog. then meeting jared at a con, i found myself loving sam even more.
i love dean too. i’m glad he did what he did, because like him, i wouldn’t want anything happening to sam. but i’ll admit that i’m being selfish as well, cuz for me the best sammy is a living sammy. but dean was wrong. i understand why he did it, glad he did, but still he was wrong. i agree that the lying made it worse. he should’ve trusted sam enough to choose. fear is powerful though.
i’m glad that sam is confronting dean. i know sam’s words seem harsh, but in all honesty, i don’t see it that way at all. i think dean is stuck in endless parental mode. this drives him to extreme measures when it comes to sam. unfortunately history has shown that these extreme measures lead to pain, loss, and sacrifice which results in more pain. it’s a vicious cycle.
the way i see it, sam is trying to stop it. his words are hard to hear but his question as i see it is valid? i love that sam isn’t just sweeping the issue under the rug, but dealing with it head on. making dean deal with it head on. they are actually starting to converse with ea. other. this is major big as normally dean just wants to let it go. sam often concedes. but this time sam is holding his ground.
the way i perceived it, sam had told dean that if they wanted to be brothers they would have to work on their relationship. well this is how to work on it. sam is being honest with dean. he’s hurt right now. feeling betrayed. so very tired and is doubting what dean said at the church. he’s raw right now and when pain is that fresh, and when you hurt, well that hurt comes out through words. both boys have been guilty of that.
now, dean needs to be honest with sam. sam started with his speech in the purge. now the ball is in dean’s court. he needs to engage sam and not just sweep it under the rug. it’s called communication.
step one ,
communication
understanding
acceptance
growth
stronger bond
so far we’re at the onset of stage one. hoping dean doesn’t shut down. as much as i know sam is hurting and what he said to dean stems from that , i feel sam is also scared. i’ve said it before. i think what dean said, that he’d do it all over again, had alarms going off in sam’s head. i couldn’t help but notice that sam’s question to dean about whether he saved sam for sam or for himself came after dean said he’d do it all over again the same way. sam telling dean that he wouldn’t do it the same way in duplicate circumstances, i couldnt help but ask myself if maybe sam actually picked his words quite carefully when he told that to dean. i don’t believe he said that to dean to hurt him. i think he said it to dean to help him. but that’s just me.
i for one am anxiously awaiting their next talk. i’ve been waiting for these boys to really open up and deal with their issues for a very long time. it’s going to be amazing when they finally understand where the other is coming from. i know it’s going to happen and in retrospect the journey in getting there will be so worth it. 😆
thanks for this. a positive perspective. we are all in such need of this and i appreciate your words.
i love sam. always have. i always saw him as the underdog and i tend to root for the underdog. then meeting jared at a con, i found myself loving sam even more.
i love dean too. i’m glad he did what he did, because like him, i wouldn’t want anything happening to sam. but i’ll admit that i’m being selfish as well, cuz for me the best sammy is a living sammy. but dean was wrong. i understand why he did it, glad he did, but still he was wrong. i agree that the lying made it worse. he should’ve trusted sam enough to choose. fear is powerful though.
i’m glad that sam is confronting dean. i know sam’s words seem harsh, but in all honesty, i don’t see it that way at all. i think dean is stuck in endless parental mode. this drives him to extreme measures when it comes to sam. unfortunately history has shown that these extreme measures lead to pain, loss, and sacrifice which results in more pain. it’s a vicious cycle.
the way i see it, sam is trying to stop it. his words are hard to hear but his question as i see it is valid? i love that sam isn’t just sweeping the issue under the rug, but dealing with it head on. making dean deal with it head on. they are actually starting to converse with ea. other. this is major big as normally dean just wants to let it go. sam often concedes. but this time sam is holding his ground.
the way i perceived it, sam had told dean that if they wanted to be brothers they would have to work on their relationship. well this is how to work on it. sam is being honest with dean. he’s hurt right now. feeling betrayed. so very tired and is doubting what dean said at the church. he’s raw right now and when pain is that fresh, and when you hurt, well that hurt comes out through words. both boys have been guilty of that.
now, dean needs to be honest with sam. sam started with his speech in the purge. now the ball is in dean’s court. he needs to engage sam and not just sweep it under the rug. it’s called communication.
step one ,
communication
understanding
acceptance
growth
stronger bond
so far we’re at the onset of stage one. hoping dean doesn’t shut down. as much as i know sam is hurting and what he said to dean stems from that , i feel sam is also scared. i’ve said it before. i think what dean said, that he’d do it all over again, had alarms going off in sam’s head. i couldn’t help but notice that sam’s question to dean about whether he saved sam for sam or for himself came after dean said he’d do it all over again the same way. sam telling dean that he wouldn’t do it the same way in duplicate circumstances, i couldnt help but ask myself if maybe sam actually picked his words quite carefully when he told that to dean. i don’t believe he said that to dean to hurt him. i think he said it to dean to help him. but that’s just me.
i for one am anxiously awaiting their next talk. i’ve been waiting for these boys to really open up and deal with their issues for a very long time. it’s going to be amazing when they finally understand where the other is coming from. i know it’s going to happen and in retrospect the journey in getting there will be so worth it. 😆
[quote name=”Sandra K”] but have always been quicker to understand Dean (not excuse him, just understand him) as I have young siblings.[/quote]
It is funny how our own lives affect how we see what is going on isn’t it 😀 I am an older sibling and I am very close to having the relationship with my baby sister that Dean has with Sam, I was actively involved in rearing her until she was about 5. Our relationship is quite rocky at times as a result. I don’t feel that I did much wrong but I totally identify with Sam’s issues with Dean, while not really blaming Dean for causing them.
TL:DR I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) 😛
[quote] but have always been quicker to understand Dean (not excuse him, just understand him) as I have young siblings.[/quote]
It is funny how our own lives affect how we see what is going on isn’t it 😀 I am an older sibling and I am very close to having the relationship with my baby sister that Dean has with Sam, I was actively involved in rearing her until she was about 5. Our relationship is quite rocky at times as a result. I don’t feel that I did much wrong but I totally identify with Sam’s issues with Dean, while not really blaming Dean for causing them.
TL:DR I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) 😛
I do not agree that Dean wants to “control” Sam. He just wants Sam to live and he wants Sam to WANT to live as Sam avowed he could do better than Dean when he took on the trials in order to lead Dean to the light. Will we never hear Dean call Sam out on this? Or on Sam’s own decision and choice to live that resulted in the gates of hell not being closed. or on Sam again choosing life when Dean offered him a plan that would achieve that. He may not have liked the measures Dean took, but Sam DID choose to live there. If he really wanted to die, he would have gone with Death and nothing and no one would have stopped him, IMO. You are right about one thing-Sam IS a grown man and grown men own their decisions whether they were right or wrong and whether they were informed enough or not.
“Sams’s words at the end of the purge may have sounded harsh to Dean. They may have hollowed him out because of how much he loves Sam, but Sam was not being unkind. He was calling Dean out on his motives and choices. Sam is a grown man too and if not still feeling very much like the little brother must have at least shadows of feeling possessed.”
And sorry, but IMO, Sam WAS being unkind in that last scene. It was an unkindness that is borne of ignorance of his brothers thoughts and feelings, but he was still unkind, IMO. And he was “calling Dean out” on motives that were clearly too narrow and limited and only seen from Sam’s POV. All the Dean fandom wants is to hear things explained more fully from DEAN’S POV. And those two parts about Dean doing more harm than good and Dean finding it easy to sacrifice when he’s not the one being hurt?-that was not only unkind, it very overtly showed how completely clueless and ignorant Sam is to how Dean thinks and feels. Sure Sam is still reeling, but if this stuff gets swept under the carpet, yet again, they should be ready to call it quits for this show because very few will buy the concept of any kind of a so-called loving borther bond if those words of Sam’s aren’t redressed. JMO, of course.
I do not agree that Dean wants to “control” Sam. He just wants Sam to live and he wants Sam to WANT to live as Sam avowed he could do better than Dean when he took on the trials in order to lead Dean to the light. Will we never hear Dean call Sam out on this? Or on Sam’s own decision and choice to live that resulted in the gates of hell not being closed. or on Sam again choosing life when Dean offered him a plan that would achieve that. He may not have liked the measures Dean took, but Sam DID choose to live there. If he really wanted to die, he would have gone with Death and nothing and no one would have stopped him, IMO. You are right about one thing-Sam IS a grown man and grown men own their decisions whether they were right or wrong and whether they were informed enough or not.
“Sams’s words at the end of the purge may have sounded harsh to Dean. They may have hollowed him out because of how much he loves Sam, but Sam was not being unkind. He was calling Dean out on his motives and choices. Sam is a grown man too and if not still feeling very much like the little brother must have at least shadows of feeling possessed.”
And sorry, but IMO, Sam WAS being unkind in that last scene. It was an unkindness that is borne of ignorance of his brothers thoughts and feelings, but he was still unkind, IMO. And he was “calling Dean out” on motives that were clearly too narrow and limited and only seen from Sam’s POV. All the Dean fandom wants is to hear things explained more fully from DEAN’S POV. And those two parts about Dean doing more harm than good and Dean finding it easy to sacrifice when he’s not the one being hurt?-that was not only unkind, it very overtly showed how completely clueless and ignorant Sam is to how Dean thinks and feels. Sure Sam is still reeling, but if this stuff gets swept under the carpet, yet again, they should be ready to call it quits for this show because very few will buy the concept of any kind of a so-called loving borther bond if those words of Sam’s aren’t redressed. JMO, of course.
Interesting thoughts!
I think I have figured out my huge problem with Sam in “Sharp Teeth” & “The Purge.”
It is Sam’s seeming lack of empathy. I hate that Sam is so flippant & somewhat emotionless about the whole situation. It just just bad writing/characterization for Sam.
Dean is so obviously affect by Sam’s “not brothers” proclamation at the beginning of the ep – Dean was sleepless/drinking/growing a man-pain beard – & then you have Sam so casually asking Dean whether it was because of what he said.
Like, come on, Sam – you know your brother better than that. It just seemed unnecessarily cruel…and so un-Sam like. I personally thought it was really unkind. I’m not sure Sam could have said anything to cut his brother deeper. Yes, the brothers obviously have work to do with their relationship, but, they will always, always, always be brothers – it is such a defining thing for both brothers. How does Sam not get that? I want to think he is just being mean because he is being a little brother who is really pissed at this big brother…but I’m just struggling to support Sam when he is acting like that. There is nothing mature about it.
Even though the writers have not given us a great insight into Sam’s headspace, I still 100% understand WHY Dean allowing an angel to possess Sam would be such a big betrayal to Sam. And I think Sam has every right in the world to be mad/pissed off/upset at Dean.
Even though I myself am glad Dean made the decision he did, because Sam would have otherwise died & with Sam dead, there would be no Supernatural! 😉 I just hate that the writers put Dean in the position to have to make the angel-possession choice for Sam in the first place.
I want Sam to be upset with Dean & hold Dean accountable for his decision, however, with Sam behaving like he is, he just isn’t very sympathetic – it is not that Sam’s point isn’t valid, it’s the way HIS side is presented to the audience.
A number of things in Sam’s big speech to Dean at the end of “The Purge,” just didn’t ring true to me:
– Sam saying that Dean causes more harm than good. Which is BS. Yes, Dean has made some BAD decisions in his time, however, he has done FAR more good than bad – him and Sam together have saved more lives than a person could count – they saved the world (yeah, I think it was a joint effort). I don’t know how you think Sam wasn’t being cruel with those words.
I also think his whole speech was laced with Sam’s low self-esteem & self-worth issues. This is something we also saw glimpses of in Sam’s convos with Cas. I for one think Sam’s life is worth so much more than Sam is giving it credit for. And I think those issues are really influencing Sam’s thought process at the moment & Dean is suffering the brunt of it.
– Sam saying Dean only saved Sam for himself because he did not want to be alone. While I think this is partly true, I think Dean also did do it for Sam. Dean has been hardwired to protect Sam his entire life. I can see why Dean would have a hard time accepting death as a better choice for Sam – who really considers death a better choice for their loved one over life. It’s a very hard call.
Based on 9 seasons of SPN, I know Sam loves this brother, more than anything. I know he would do anything in the world for Dean.
But I’m not getting that at all right now. I just want some concrete indication shown ON SCRREN that Dean & their brotherhood means as much to Sam as it does to Dean.
I’m a bibro girl so it’s hard for me to understand why so many Sam!girls are defending him & his attitude. I can love the man to death, and still disagree with his actions (just like I disagree with Dean allowing angel possession on his brother).
I just really don’t know the purpose of writing Sam this way. It really just hearts my heart & makes me really, really miss the Sam I know. Sam DESERVES to be likable. Because he is one of the most likable dudes ever.
Interesting thoughts!
I think I have figured out my huge problem with Sam in “Sharp Teeth” & “The Purge.”
It is Sam’s seeming lack of empathy. I hate that Sam is so flippant & somewhat emotionless about the whole situation. It just just bad writing/characterization for Sam.
Dean is so obviously affect by Sam’s “not brothers” proclamation at the beginning of the ep – Dean was sleepless/drinking/growing a man-pain beard – & then you have Sam so casually asking Dean whether it was because of what he said.
Like, come on, Sam – you know your brother better than that. It just seemed unnecessarily cruel…and so un-Sam like. I personally thought it was really unkind. I’m not sure Sam could have said anything to cut his brother deeper. Yes, the brothers obviously have work to do with their relationship, but, they will always, always, always be brothers – it is such a defining thing for both brothers. How does Sam not get that? I want to think he is just being mean because he is being a little brother who is really pissed at this big brother…but I’m just struggling to support Sam when he is acting like that. There is nothing mature about it.
Even though the writers have not given us a great insight into Sam’s headspace, I still 100% understand WHY Dean allowing an angel to possess Sam would be such a big betrayal to Sam. And I think Sam has every right in the world to be mad/pissed off/upset at Dean.
Even though I myself am glad Dean made the decision he did, because Sam would have otherwise died & with Sam dead, there would be no Supernatural! 😉 I just hate that the writers put Dean in the position to have to make the angel-possession choice for Sam in the first place.
I want Sam to be upset with Dean & hold Dean accountable for his decision, however, with Sam behaving like he is, he just isn’t very sympathetic – it is not that Sam’s point isn’t valid, it’s the way HIS side is presented to the audience.
A number of things in Sam’s big speech to Dean at the end of “The Purge,” just didn’t ring true to me:
– Sam saying that Dean causes more harm than good. Which is BS. Yes, Dean has made some BAD decisions in his time, however, he has done FAR more good than bad – him and Sam together have saved more lives than a person could count – they saved the world (yeah, I think it was a joint effort). I don’t know how you think Sam wasn’t being cruel with those words.
I also think his whole speech was laced with Sam’s low self-esteem & self-worth issues. This is something we also saw glimpses of in Sam’s convos with Cas. I for one think Sam’s life is worth so much more than Sam is giving it credit for. And I think those issues are really influencing Sam’s thought process at the moment & Dean is suffering the brunt of it.
– Sam saying Dean only saved Sam for himself because he did not want to be alone. While I think this is partly true, I think Dean also did do it for Sam. Dean has been hardwired to protect Sam his entire life. I can see why Dean would have a hard time accepting death as a better choice for Sam – who really considers death a better choice for their loved one over life. It’s a very hard call.
Based on 9 seasons of SPN, I know Sam loves this brother, more than anything. I know he would do anything in the world for Dean.
But I’m not getting that at all right now. I just want some concrete indication shown ON SCRREN that Dean & their brotherhood means as much to Sam as it does to Dean.
I’m a bibro girl so it’s hard for me to understand why so many Sam!girls are defending him & his attitude. I can love the man to death, and still disagree with his actions (just like I disagree with Dean allowing angel possession on his brother).
I just really don’t know the purpose of writing Sam this way. It really just hearts my heart & makes me really, really miss the Sam I know. Sam DESERVES to be likable. Because he is one of the most likable dudes ever.
[quote name=”JJ”]Interesting thoughts!
I think I have figured out my huge problem with Sam in “Sharp Teeth” & “The Purge.”
It is Sam’s seeming lack of empathy. I hate that Sam is so flippant & somewhat emotionless about the whole situation. It just just bad writing/characterization for Sam.
….
Like, come on, Sam – you know your brother better than that. It just seemed unnecessarily cruel…and so un-Sam like. I personally thought it was really unkind.
……
I want Sam to be upset with Dean & hold Dean accountable for his decision, however, with Sam behaving like he is, he just isn’t very sympathetic – it is not that Sam’s point isn’t valid, it’s the way HIS side is presented to the audience.
……
A number of things in Sam’s big speech to Dean at the end of “The Purge,” just didn’t ring true to me:
– Sam saying that Dean causes more harm than good. Which is BS. Yes, Dean has made some BAD decisions in his time, however, he has done FAR more good than bad – him and Sam together have saved more lives than a person could count – they saved the world (yeah, I think it was a joint effort). I don’t know how you think Sam wasn’t being cruel with those words.
……
Based on 9 seasons of SPN, I know Sam loves this brother, more than anything. I know he would do anything in the world for Dean.
But I’m not getting that at all right now. I just want some concrete indication shown ON SCRREN that Dean & their brotherhood means as much to Sam as it does to Dean.
I’m a bibro girl so it’s hard for me to understand why so many Sam!girls are defending him & his attitude. I can love the man to death, and still disagree with his actions (just like I disagree with Dean allowing angel possession on his brother).
I just really don’t know the purpose of writing Sam this way. It really just hearts my heart & makes me really, really miss the Sam I know. Sam DESERVES to be likable. Because he is one of the most likable dudes ever.[/quote]
I totally agree – particularly with the bits I’ve highlighted above. I just don’t get why the writers are depicting Sam so unsympathetically. I love both boys equally, but I’ve spent a lot more time since s8 defending Sam than I have defending Dean.
There are only 2 leads in this show, and there were already, even before JC took over, a lot of fans who either preferred Dean to Sam, or outright couldn’t stand Sam. But since s8 the writing for Sam has taken a nose dive and the anti Sam section of the fandom was gifted an open goal in terms of their arguments that Sam doesn’t deserve Dean, that he doesn’t love Dean as much as Dean loves him, that he is a selfish, self centred brat etc etc. I already made clear how appalling I thought the decision was to have Sam not look for Dean. So I had a very tough time defending him on that issue. And in fact the best I ever managed was ‘it was just bad writing’ because no other ‘in-story’ explanation made any sense. Now we have this awful and totally ooc conversation. I can’t defend Sam. I love his real character, but this wasn’t him. And whatever Sam-bot the writers created acted like a cruel, selfish liar who rewrote their history, deliberately picked the worst, most hurtful things he could think of to say to his brother and acted like he couldn’t give a damn about him. How can anyone defend that? So again all I can say to defend the character I love, the real Sam, is to say ‘that was really bad writing and the Sam I know would NEVER have said those things’
[quote]Interesting thoughts!
I think I have figured out my huge problem with Sam in “Sharp Teeth” & “The Purge.”
It is Sam’s seeming lack of empathy. I hate that Sam is so flippant & somewhat emotionless about the whole situation. It just just bad writing/characterization for Sam.
….
Like, come on, Sam – you know your brother better than that. It just seemed unnecessarily cruel…and so un-Sam like. I personally thought it was really unkind.
……
I want Sam to be upset with Dean & hold Dean accountable for his decision, however, with Sam behaving like he is, he just isn’t very sympathetic – it is not that Sam’s point isn’t valid, it’s the way HIS side is presented to the audience.
……
A number of things in Sam’s big speech to Dean at the end of “The Purge,” just didn’t ring true to me:
– Sam saying that Dean causes more harm than good. Which is BS. Yes, Dean has made some BAD decisions in his time, however, he has done FAR more good than bad – him and Sam together have saved more lives than a person could count – they saved the world (yeah, I think it was a joint effort). I don’t know how you think Sam wasn’t being cruel with those words.
……
Based on 9 seasons of SPN, I know Sam loves this brother, more than anything. I know he would do anything in the world for Dean.
But I’m not getting that at all right now. I just want some concrete indication shown ON SCRREN that Dean & their brotherhood means as much to Sam as it does to Dean.
I’m a bibro girl so it’s hard for me to understand why so many Sam!girls are defending him & his attitude. I can love the man to death, and still disagree with his actions (just like I disagree with Dean allowing angel possession on his brother).
I just really don’t know the purpose of writing Sam this way. It really just hearts my heart & makes me really, really miss the Sam I know. Sam DESERVES to be likable. Because he is one of the most likable dudes ever.[/quote]
I totally agree – particularly with the bits I’ve highlighted above. I just don’t get why the writers are depicting Sam so unsympathetically. I love both boys equally, but I’ve spent a lot more time since s8 defending Sam than I have defending Dean.
There are only 2 leads in this show, and there were already, even before JC took over, a lot of fans who either preferred Dean to Sam, or outright couldn’t stand Sam. But since s8 the writing for Sam has taken a nose dive and the anti Sam section of the fandom was gifted an open goal in terms of their arguments that Sam doesn’t deserve Dean, that he doesn’t love Dean as much as Dean loves him, that he is a selfish, self centred brat etc etc. I already made clear how appalling I thought the decision was to have Sam not look for Dean. So I had a very tough time defending him on that issue. And in fact the best I ever managed was ‘it was just bad writing’ because no other ‘in-story’ explanation made any sense. Now we have this awful and totally ooc conversation. I can’t defend Sam. I love his real character, but this wasn’t him. And whatever Sam-bot the writers created acted like a cruel, selfish liar who rewrote their history, deliberately picked the worst, most hurtful things he could think of to say to his brother and acted like he couldn’t give a damn about him. How can anyone defend that? So again all I can say to defend the character I love, the real Sam, is to say ‘that was really bad writing and the Sam I know would NEVER have said those things’
JJ, Sam is being written this way to make Dean seem more sympathetic IMO, and to set up his downfall.
I know I’m defending Sam’s attitude because I think that what Dean did was awful. When it happened, I thought, how can Dean do that after Lucifer? I see what Dean did as more cruel than what Sam said. It’s that simple. The problem is that we ABSOLUTELY needed a Sam-centric episode after he found out about Gadreel. We needed to see him process Dean’s betrayal, how he felt about the lies, the possession, everything. What we got instead is another Dean episode, and a mere 10 minutes between Dean and Cas that mostly dealt with Cas’ post-mortem about being human. To this day, I don’t really understand what Sam was saying. We really needed to sympathise with Sam’s pain before the harsh words that came after.
I don’t really want to see that Sam’s see family the same way Dean does. Dean’s way is not right. He loves Sam to death, but it’s possessive, selfish and hurtful. What is the saying? “If you love them, let them go” or something? That’s seems to be the lesson that Dean is not ready to learn.
I also think that Sam would soften his approach a lot if Dean wouldn’t keep insisting that he’d do it all over again. To Sam, it must feel like Dean doesn’t care about what Sam wants or feel at all.
Thank you for writing this Suenash. Needless to say, I agree.
JJ, Sam is being written this way to make Dean seem more sympathetic IMO, and to set up his downfall.
I know I’m defending Sam’s attitude because I think that what Dean did was awful. When it happened, I thought, how can Dean do that after Lucifer? I see what Dean did as more cruel than what Sam said. It’s that simple. The problem is that we ABSOLUTELY needed a Sam-centric episode after he found out about Gadreel. We needed to see him process Dean’s betrayal, how he felt about the lies, the possession, everything. What we got instead is another Dean episode, and a mere 10 minutes between Dean and Cas that mostly dealt with Cas’ post-mortem about being human. To this day, I don’t really understand what Sam was saying. We really needed to sympathise with Sam’s pain before the harsh words that came after.
I don’t really want to see that Sam’s see family the same way Dean does. Dean’s way is not right. He loves Sam to death, but it’s possessive, selfish and hurtful. What is the saying? “If you love them, let them go” or something? That’s seems to be the lesson that Dean is not ready to learn.
I also think that Sam would soften his approach a lot if Dean wouldn’t keep insisting that he’d do it all over again. To Sam, it must feel like Dean doesn’t care about what Sam wants or feel at all.
Thank you for writing this Suenash. Needless to say, I agree.
I meant: A mere 10 minutes between SAM and Cas.
I meant: A mere 10 minutes between SAM and Cas.
Shelby2, the whole show is from Dean’s POV. Even now that he has the mytharc, we still get more Dean POV and this is the most Dean-centric season to date, so I don’t understand what you said there.
As far as Sam’s sweeping generalizations during last last conversation, they probably won’t be addressed, like Dean saying that Sam had to confess about being soulless. It’s generally understood that some of that was emotional, not rational.
I understand that you feel that Sam was cruel, but so was Dean during seasons 4 and beyond. Both guys can be cruel when they’re angry. The difference is that Dean’s angry and hurtful words have context. We see a lot of the pain he feels before he expresses himself. Sam is not so lucky as a character.
Shelby2, the whole show is from Dean’s POV. Even now that he has the mytharc, we still get more Dean POV and this is the most Dean-centric season to date, so I don’t understand what you said there.
As far as Sam’s sweeping generalizations during last last conversation, they probably won’t be addressed, like Dean saying that Sam had to confess about being soulless. It’s generally understood that some of that was emotional, not rational.
I understand that you feel that Sam was cruel, but so was Dean during seasons 4 and beyond. Both guys can be cruel when they’re angry. The difference is that Dean’s angry and hurtful words have context. We see a lot of the pain he feels before he expresses himself. Sam is not so lucky as a character.
[quote name=”JJ”]I think I have figured out my huge problem with Sam in “Sharp Teeth” & “The Purge.” It is Sam’s seeming lack of empathy. I hate that Sam is so flippant & somewhat emotionless about the whole situation. It just just bad writing/characterization for Sam. [/quote]
Here’s my interpretation of the scene in comparison to how you saw it, so you’ll see that I don’t think it’s bad writing/characterization for Sam. It just a different perspective!
And this comment isn’t just in response to your comment; but to the many I’ve seen here and on other sites.
Both brothers were snarky & distant with one another throughout the episode, so at the beginning of the conversation Sam was still aloof because he didn’t know what Dean was going to say. Maybe he was preparing for Dean to apologize… and if we had gotten an apology, maybe Sam’s response would’ve been different.
Instead, Dean tells Sam that he was right to do what he did and he’d do it all again!
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but almost everyone (Sam and Dean fans alike) said that Dean did the wrong thing by letting an angel possess Sam (even though we understood why he did it). Back then, we all accepted that Sam would be rightly angry.
What has changed since then? Nothing, except the situation ended up being a million times worse because Kevin ended up dying by Sam’s hand.
It’s a pretty simple deduction then – Sam is going to be even angrier than we first thought.
Why then all the disbelief in the way Sam is behaving? I just don’t get it.
In my opinion, Sam had been quite restrained up to this point; this is the first time he’s actually gotten angry.
Also, in regard to what he first said, I think he was talking primarily about what has transpired since the church (not before). Most people have interpreted that as a sweeping statement about everything the brothers have ever done, but Sam only gave examples of Kevin and closing the gates of Hell. I think the point he was trying to make is that sometimes the cost of saving each other is too high. But, again, it’s open to interpretation.
Then, finally, when Dean turned the question on Sam, I did not see an emotionless reaction from Sam. If you did, I implore you to watch it again.
From my perspective, it was a wonderful performance by Jared. In that moment his expression went from anger to sadness. He took no joy in saying, “No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”
There was heartbreak written all over his face. How could you not see it? The body language also reflected a sense of resignation – that he is tired and worn down, and that perhaps he’ll never be able to make Dean understand.
So there you have it. We both watch the same show. We both come away with different interpretations. I still love Sam and Dean. I still love Supernatural. And I place my trust in Jeremy Carver and the writers. After all, this is not my creation. It’s theirs to do as they want. You either say on board for the ride, or you disembark.
[quote]I think I have figured out my huge problem with Sam in “Sharp Teeth” & “The Purge.” It is Sam’s seeming lack of empathy. I hate that Sam is so flippant & somewhat emotionless about the whole situation. It just just bad writing/characterization for Sam. [/quote]
Here’s my interpretation of the scene in comparison to how you saw it, so you’ll see that I don’t think it’s bad writing/characterization for Sam. It just a different perspective!
And this comment isn’t just in response to your comment; but to the many I’ve seen here and on other sites.
Both brothers were snarky & distant with one another throughout the episode, so at the beginning of the conversation Sam was still aloof because he didn’t know what Dean was going to say. Maybe he was preparing for Dean to apologize… and if we had gotten an apology, maybe Sam’s response would’ve been different.
Instead, Dean tells Sam that he was right to do what he did and he’d do it all again!
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but almost everyone (Sam and Dean fans alike) said that Dean did the wrong thing by letting an angel possess Sam (even though we understood why he did it). Back then, we all accepted that Sam would be rightly angry.
What has changed since then? Nothing, except the situation ended up being a million times worse because Kevin ended up dying by Sam’s hand.
It’s a pretty simple deduction then – Sam is going to be even angrier than we first thought.
Why then all the disbelief in the way Sam is behaving? I just don’t get it.
In my opinion, Sam had been quite restrained up to this point; this is the first time he’s actually gotten angry.
Also, in regard to what he first said, I think he was talking primarily about what has transpired since the church (not before). Most people have interpreted that as a sweeping statement about everything the brothers have ever done, but Sam only gave examples of Kevin and closing the gates of Hell. I think the point he was trying to make is that sometimes the cost of saving each other is too high. But, again, it’s open to interpretation.
Then, finally, when Dean turned the question on Sam, I did not see an emotionless reaction from Sam. If you did, I implore you to watch it again.
From my perspective, it was a wonderful performance by Jared. In that moment his expression went from anger to sadness. He took no joy in saying, “No Dean, I wouldn’t. Same circumstances, I wouldn’t.”
There was heartbreak written all over his face. How could you not see it? The body language also reflected a sense of resignation – that he is tired and worn down, and that perhaps he’ll never be able to make Dean understand.
So there you have it. We both watch the same show. We both come away with different interpretations. I still love Sam and Dean. I still love Supernatural. And I place my trust in Jeremy Carver and the writers. After all, this is not my creation. It’s theirs to do as they want. You either say on board for the ride, or you disembark.
[quote name=”KG_SPN”]
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but almost everyone (Sam and Dean fans alike) said that Dean did the wrong thing by letting an angel possess Sam (even though we understood why he did it).
What has changed since then? Nothing, except the situation ended up being a million times worse because Kevin ended up dying by Sam’s hand.
[/quote]
See, your bring up a point that I touched briefly on in my post.
So many fans (myself included) are angry that Dean allowed an angel to possess Sam – it was such a violation. I don’t think you will find many fans disagree with that.
The thing is, I take HUGE issue that the writers chose to put Dean in a position where he had to make that decision – Sam had to be saved (obviously) & the writers wrote a HORRIBLE way for Dean to do so.
It is just how I don’t like that I feel the writers killed Kevin simply to reinforce that those close to the Winchesters die because the brothers are so dangerously codependent & their bond is toxic…or whatever (something else I completely disagree about, but I’ll save you that argument). Everything about Kevin felt like a plot point after he was killed – you could see why Dean & Kevin had that talk a few episodes prior about “family.” I felt (and continue to feel) very cheated.
Bottom line, I don’t like how the writers have lately been writing the brothers to both be somewhat unlikable – Dean in his original decision to save Sam via angel possession and Sam now.
Neither brother is painted in a favorable light and have been making bad decisions / acting questionable, jerkish & that is a significant problem when the brothers are the two leads on a show.
You want to root for them, love them – they are the heros after all. Let them be, writers. Please.
[quote]
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but almost everyone (Sam and Dean fans alike) said that Dean did the wrong thing by letting an angel possess Sam (even though we understood why he did it).
What has changed since then? Nothing, except the situation ended up being a million times worse because Kevin ended up dying by Sam’s hand.
[/quote]
See, your bring up a point that I touched briefly on in my post.
So many fans (myself included) are angry that Dean allowed an angel to possess Sam – it was such a violation. I don’t think you will find many fans disagree with that.
The thing is, I take HUGE issue that the writers chose to put Dean in a position where he had to make that decision – Sam had to be saved (obviously) & the writers wrote a HORRIBLE way for Dean to do so.
It is just how I don’t like that I feel the writers killed Kevin simply to reinforce that those close to the Winchesters die because the brothers are so dangerously codependent & their bond is toxic…or whatever (something else I completely disagree about, but I’ll save you that argument). Everything about Kevin felt like a plot point after he was killed – you could see why Dean & Kevin had that talk a few episodes prior about “family.” I felt (and continue to feel) very cheated.
Bottom line, I don’t like how the writers have lately been writing the brothers to both be somewhat unlikable – Dean in his original decision to save Sam via angel possession and Sam now.
Neither brother is painted in a favorable light and have been making bad decisions / acting questionable, jerkish & that is a significant problem when the brothers are the two leads on a show.
You want to root for them, love them – they are the heros after all. Let them be, writers. Please.
[quote name=”Geordiegirl1967″][quote name=”amyh”]I agree with you….but in a way I also agree with Geordiegirl. I think it’s gotten neyond obvious that the bad outweighs the good in this relationship. It’s large stretches of bad with small moments of good that are getting smaller and further betweent he bad.
Maybe…Dean was right in season 5. They both should pick a hemisphere and seperate for good.[/quote]
I think you’ve misunderstood me. I was saying the opposite ie that the good massively outweighs the bad. Problem is that that is an inconvenient truth for these writers so they’re trying to rewrite history and warp the characters to make it true that their codependency has been bad and selfish when in fact it has been heroic and has saved the world.[/quote]
MAybe i did misunderstand you but i have a hard time seeing how the good outweighs the bad. The ONLY reason they saved the word is because they pretty much pushed the world off the cliff. Entire towns….men, women AND children have been murdered because of Sam and Dean. Entire countries.
Question…..do you think fandoms love for Jared and Jensen and THIER friendship affects how we see Sam and Deans relationship?
[quote][quote]I agree with you….but in a way I also agree with Geordiegirl. I think it’s gotten neyond obvious that the bad outweighs the good in this relationship. It’s large stretches of bad with small moments of good that are getting smaller and further betweent he bad.
Maybe…Dean was right in season 5. They both should pick a hemisphere and seperate for good.[/quote]
I think you’ve misunderstood me. I was saying the opposite ie that the good massively outweighs the bad. Problem is that that is an inconvenient truth for these writers so they’re trying to rewrite history and warp the characters to make it true that their codependency has been bad and selfish when in fact it has been heroic and has saved the world.[/quote]
MAybe i did misunderstand you but i have a hard time seeing how the good outweighs the bad. The ONLY reason they saved the word is because they pretty much pushed the world off the cliff. Entire towns….men, women AND children have been murdered because of Sam and Dean. Entire countries.
Question…..do you think fandoms love for Jared and Jensen and THIER friendship affects how we see Sam and Deans relationship?
Thank you SO SO much for this. It is so good to finally see a balanced article/review here that shows sympathy and understanding for Sam as well as for Dean. I almost didn’t read it as I was on the verge of deciding to stop reading the reviews here but I’m very glad I did read it. Thank you once again. 🙂
Thank you SO SO much for this. It is so good to finally see a balanced article/review here that shows sympathy and understanding for Sam as well as for Dean. I almost didn’t read it as I was on the verge of deciding to stop reading the reviews here but I’m very glad I did read it. Thank you once again. 🙂
you know i don’t really understand why or how sam is even supposed to be expected to feel empathy for dean right now.
i don’t recall dean feeling empathy to sam at any time in s8. when sam told dean he thought he was dead, that he was riding around for months, he ran away, he thought his entire family was dead, he was all alone and he had no road map to tell him what to do. i don’t recall any empathy/sympathy coming from dean then. you think dean would understand how sam would’ve felt given that he had been through sam’s death. he didn’t know what he should do. in dean’s speech to sam in ahbl2…what am i supposed to do? what am i supposed to do?
all i recall from dean for half a season is anger. i don’t recall understanding. as i remember dean disregarded all that sam said and concluded that sam left him in purgatory for a girl. sam told dean he was honoring their promise, but still i don’t recall any understanding from dean on that. if i were a betting gal, i would bet that dean had a say in that promise in the first place. i don’t recall dean being sympathetic and understanding with sam when couldn’t hunt anymore. yes he couldn’t handle the responsibility at the time. dean’s death was more than sam could handle. but as i recall, when dean jumped in the pit, he gave up hunting. oh but it was because he promised sam. well, sam was honoring a promise too and look where that got him.
as i recall, the first half of last season, dean showed nothing but anger. he said mean and cruel things. he did cruel things. but hey, it’s dean winchester and he was hurt and angry so it’s perfectly understandable that he couldn’t feel sympathy or empathy for his brother.
but sam winchester? angry and hurt and disillusioned. reacting as humans do, reacting not unlike his brother did not too long ago..no sam winchester is a heartless bastard.
the double standard from this fandom is more frustrating than anything the writers have ever done to our boys.
i have to wonder if some are not really listening and seriously paying attention to what sam is doing right now.
in sharp teeth, sam in so many words told dean that they had to work on their brother relationship. they can’t just go back to the normal routine and wish it all away. dean hurt his brother in a way that i’m not sure he fully understands or refuses to. sam lost trust and now dean has to get it back. but sam got into that car without hesitation because he loves his brother and he’s not giving up.
the next episode where everyone is crying that sam is being unsympathetic continues from there. dean is drinking and was up all night. now i don’t think sam is blind to the fact that dean is in a bad place right now. not at all. i have no doubt sam recognizes the signs. which i think is why he did say what he said. that it wasn’t only out of anger. jared quoted that sam could be a jerk. but that tweet came early during the eppy. i think jared was referring to this scene. but as i watched it occurred to me exactly what i believe sam was doing. he asked if dean was in this condition because of what he said.
i totally get it. sam is questioning whether or not he’s getting through to his brother. is dean thinking about what sam said in sharp teeth? does dean get why sam is hurt and angry? does dean understand that sam wants to work on fixing it? and that one question, in which he was deliberately baiting his brother , gave him the answer.
dean’s response was don’t worry, i don’t break easily. a snide response, but one that sam knew was a lie. he is getting his brother to break. and that’s what sam is trying to get dean to do. break. get him to communicate with him. sam is looking for a confrontation.
it worked too. sam did get what he wanted. now it’s time to deal with what was said. what dean said, given everything that has happened angered sam. not only did it anger him, but i think it scared him too. he was upset. dean admitted that after everything that’s happened, he would let it all happen again. he’d make choices for sam again that he wouldn’t make for himself, he’d trick him, lie to him, be willing to go through the guilt and pain of all of that including an innocent dying, and all for what? that was sam’s question. and it’s a valid one due to past history and past pain and suffering brought on by these sacrifices. does dean do it for sam or does he do it because he can’t be alone? you know if dean were on a shrinks couch, i’ll bet you a steak dinner the shrink would ask dean the very same question.
you know i don’t really understand why or how sam is even supposed to be expected to feel empathy for dean right now.
i don’t recall dean feeling empathy to sam at any time in s8. when sam told dean he thought he was dead, that he was riding around for months, he ran away, he thought his entire family was dead, he was all alone and he had no road map to tell him what to do. i don’t recall any empathy/sympathy coming from dean then. you think dean would understand how sam would’ve felt given that he had been through sam’s death. he didn’t know what he should do. in dean’s speech to sam in ahbl2…what am i supposed to do? what am i supposed to do?
all i recall from dean for half a season is anger. i don’t recall understanding. as i remember dean disregarded all that sam said and concluded that sam left him in purgatory for a girl. sam told dean he was honoring their promise, but still i don’t recall any understanding from dean on that. if i were a betting gal, i would bet that dean had a say in that promise in the first place. i don’t recall dean being sympathetic and understanding with sam when couldn’t hunt anymore. yes he couldn’t handle the responsibility at the time. dean’s death was more than sam could handle. but as i recall, when dean jumped in the pit, he gave up hunting. oh but it was because he promised sam. well, sam was honoring a promise too and look where that got him.
as i recall, the first half of last season, dean showed nothing but anger. he said mean and cruel things. he did cruel things. but hey, it’s dean winchester and he was hurt and angry so it’s perfectly understandable that he couldn’t feel sympathy or empathy for his brother.
but sam winchester? angry and hurt and disillusioned. reacting as humans do, reacting not unlike his brother did not too long ago..no sam winchester is a heartless bastard.
the double standard from this fandom is more frustrating than anything the writers have ever done to our boys.
i have to wonder if some are not really listening and seriously paying attention to what sam is doing right now.
in sharp teeth, sam in so many words told dean that they had to work on their brother relationship. they can’t just go back to the normal routine and wish it all away. dean hurt his brother in a way that i’m not sure he fully understands or refuses to. sam lost trust and now dean has to get it back. but sam got into that car without hesitation because he loves his brother and he’s not giving up.
the next episode where everyone is crying that sam is being unsympathetic continues from there. dean is drinking and was up all night. now i don’t think sam is blind to the fact that dean is in a bad place right now. not at all. i have no doubt sam recognizes the signs. which i think is why he did say what he said. that it wasn’t only out of anger. jared quoted that sam could be a jerk. but that tweet came early during the eppy. i think jared was referring to this scene. but as i watched it occurred to me exactly what i believe sam was doing. he asked if dean was in this condition because of what he said.
i totally get it. sam is questioning whether or not he’s getting through to his brother. is dean thinking about what sam said in sharp teeth? does dean get why sam is hurt and angry? does dean understand that sam wants to work on fixing it? and that one question, in which he was deliberately baiting his brother , gave him the answer.
dean’s response was don’t worry, i don’t break easily. a snide response, but one that sam knew was a lie. he is getting his brother to break. and that’s what sam is trying to get dean to do. break. get him to communicate with him. sam is looking for a confrontation.
it worked too. sam did get what he wanted. now it’s time to deal with what was said. what dean said, given everything that has happened angered sam. not only did it anger him, but i think it scared him too. he was upset. dean admitted that after everything that’s happened, he would let it all happen again. he’d make choices for sam again that he wouldn’t make for himself, he’d trick him, lie to him, be willing to go through the guilt and pain of all of that including an innocent dying, and all for what? that was sam’s question. and it’s a valid one due to past history and past pain and suffering brought on by these sacrifices. does dean do it for sam or does he do it because he can’t be alone? you know if dean were on a shrinks couch, i’ll bet you a steak dinner the shrink would ask dean the very same question.
i believe it scares sam that dean is so often willing to go down that path which always leads to dean’s self destruction. sam telling dean that he wouldn’t do things the way he did in the same circumstances, isn’t just about how differently they see things. it was about how much sam does love dean. they show it differently as they are different people who suffered different ordeals. sam loves dean enough to lead him away from the path of self destruction, where dean loves sam to the point where he’s willing to bask in the pool of self destruction?
question is which love is healthier? i’m with sam on this one.
so empathy/sympathy? that’s the last thing dean needs at the current moment.
jmo of course.
i believe it scares sam that dean is so often willing to go down that path which always leads to dean’s self destruction. sam telling dean that he wouldn’t do things the way he did in the same circumstances, isn’t just about how differently they see things. it was about how much sam does love dean. they show it differently as they are different people who suffered different ordeals. sam loves dean enough to lead him away from the path of self destruction, where dean loves sam to the point where he’s willing to bask in the pool of self destruction?
question is which love is healthier? i’m with sam on this one.
so empathy/sympathy? that’s the last thing dean needs at the current moment.
jmo of course.
suenash19, thank you for this. It’s nice to get a little bit of balanced perspective around here for a change especially lately. So, thank you for being so fair in your musings and in your take on the brothers. I am really hoping that you write some more articles for this site to bring a little balance back to some of these articles. Your refreshing (and FAIR) account of what is going on with our two heroes is quite welcome and necessary IMO, so thanks again!
suenash19, thank you for this. It’s nice to get a little bit of balanced perspective around here for a change especially lately. So, thank you for being so fair in your musings and in your take on the brothers. I am really hoping that you write some more articles for this site to bring a little balance back to some of these articles. Your refreshing (and FAIR) account of what is going on with our two heroes is quite welcome and necessary IMO, so thanks again!
Thank you for this article. Sam and Dean are both heroic and flawed. To me, that’s what makes them three-dimensional, interesting characters. I understand both Dean’s choices and Sam’s anger and frustration. I also understand the choices the writers made. Season 7 ended with an impasse. Sam saw Dean disappear – and probably die – in the explosion that killed Dick Roman. He was left all alone with no idea what to do or where to go next, so he fixed up the Impala and drove. That is what Sam said in “We need to talk about Kevin”. Of course, Sam could have kept on hunting and obsessively trying to retrieve his brother – because that ended so well last time he did it – or found a Deus ex machina to magically bring Dean back to him. After “Sacrifice”, Sam could have died, been magically healed or brought back by another demon deal. After finding out what happened with Gadreel, Sam could have instantly forgiven Dean or made a bitchface and run off instead of expressing his feelings and confronting Dean. I don’t believe any of those alternatives would have made for better storytelling.
Thank you for this article. Sam and Dean are both heroic and flawed. To me, that’s what makes them three-dimensional, interesting characters. I understand both Dean’s choices and Sam’s anger and frustration. I also understand the choices the writers made. Season 7 ended with an impasse. Sam saw Dean disappear – and probably die – in the explosion that killed Dick Roman. He was left all alone with no idea what to do or where to go next, so he fixed up the Impala and drove. That is what Sam said in “We need to talk about Kevin”. Of course, Sam could have kept on hunting and obsessively trying to retrieve his brother – because that ended so well last time he did it – or found a Deus ex machina to magically bring Dean back to him. After “Sacrifice”, Sam could have died, been magically healed or brought back by another demon deal. After finding out what happened with Gadreel, Sam could have instantly forgiven Dean or made a bitchface and run off instead of expressing his feelings and confronting Dean. I don’t believe any of those alternatives would have made for better storytelling.
Let’s look at the Winchester history from a different perspective.
-Mary makes a deal with the YED to save John which causes her death and Sam to be infected with demon blood, develop physic powers and be manipulated by demons his whole life
-John becomes a hunter and pulls his two sons into the life with him especially Dean, the older brother. John also begins the mantra of Dean is responsible for Sam as Dean’s first and most important job.
– life continues on with deals being made and souls being traded and demons pulling the strings. Jess dies to force Sam back into hunting.
– Dean breaks the first seal as the righteous man who breaks in hell and Sam because of grief over Dean being in hell starts getting revenge with the help of demon Ruby
-Dean gets pulled out of hell and warns Sam against Ruby. So do Chuck, Pamela and Cas. This is a season long theme, this warning of Sam, so he has plenty of opportunity to consider these warnings. Sam becomes addicted to demon blood and breaks the last seal.
-Dean is angry with Sam but defends him to other hunters and stands by him. Dean does say that he is angry because Sam ultimately chose a demon over him. Dean is also still Leary that Sam is addicted to demon blood. Sam chooses to leave and Dean agrees but in a loving way and even offers Sam the Impala. Later when Sam wants to get back together Dean says it’s just not a good idea and puts the blame on the fact that demons are able to manipulate both of them.
-Dean rethinks this after “The End” and the brothers are together again
-Sam jumps into the cage with Lucifer to atone and Dean agrees but grieves the loss of Sam
-Cas pulls Sam from the cage soulless probably on purpose
-Dean recovers Sam’s soul and Death puts up a wall
-Cas breaks the wall and eventually Sam almost dies from the affects of his soul being in the cage
-Dean finds Cas and Cas fixes the problem but Dean is still angry with Cas
– Dean and Cas end up in purgatory trying to fix the problems Cas caused
-Sam decides not to look for Dean or be responsible for Kevin
-Dean gets out of purgatory because of a vamp and Sam is all over Dean about letting the vamp live. Dean is all over Sam about not looking for him.
– finally after Sam does the trials and Dean supports him in this Dean realizes it’s a death sentence and the brothers agree to choose each other and life over every thing else.
– Dean agrees to let his dying brother to be possessed by an angel to keep him alive while under stress and a short time span.
– Dean lies, feels guilty but goes with an “in for a penny, in for a pound” attitude. Kevin dies. Charlie, Cas and Sam live.
– Sam, now free of possession, blames Dean for everything that has gone wrong in his life, but has hugs for Cas and has previously asked Dean to lighten up on Cas. Sam has also had a heart to heart with the demon Meg (who possessed him) the season before about his time with Amelia. No hard truths for Meg or Cas. Just Dean because Dean is selfish and afraid to be alone and not worth saving under certain circumstance. Dean, who stood by his demon blood infected brother, no matter what.
Let’s look at the Winchester history from a different perspective.
-Mary makes a deal with the YED to save John which causes her death and Sam to be infected with demon blood, develop physic powers and be manipulated by demons his whole life
-John becomes a hunter and pulls his two sons into the life with him especially Dean, the older brother. John also begins the mantra of Dean is responsible for Sam as Dean’s first and most important job.
– life continues on with deals being made and souls being traded and demons pulling the strings. Jess dies to force Sam back into hunting.
– Dean breaks the first seal as the righteous man who breaks in hell and Sam because of grief over Dean being in hell starts getting revenge with the help of demon Ruby
-Dean gets pulled out of hell and warns Sam against Ruby. So do Chuck, Pamela and Cas. This is a season long theme, this warning of Sam, so he has plenty of opportunity to consider these warnings. Sam becomes addicted to demon blood and breaks the last seal.
-Dean is angry with Sam but defends him to other hunters and stands by him. Dean does say that he is angry because Sam ultimately chose a demon over him. Dean is also still Leary that Sam is addicted to demon blood. Sam chooses to leave and Dean agrees but in a loving way and even offers Sam the Impala. Later when Sam wants to get back together Dean says it’s just not a good idea and puts the blame on the fact that demons are able to manipulate both of them.
-Dean rethinks this after “The End” and the brothers are together again
-Sam jumps into the cage with Lucifer to atone and Dean agrees but grieves the loss of Sam
-Cas pulls Sam from the cage soulless probably on purpose
-Dean recovers Sam’s soul and Death puts up a wall
-Cas breaks the wall and eventually Sam almost dies from the affects of his soul being in the cage
-Dean finds Cas and Cas fixes the problem but Dean is still angry with Cas
– Dean and Cas end up in purgatory trying to fix the problems Cas caused
-Sam decides not to look for Dean or be responsible for Kevin
-Dean gets out of purgatory because of a vamp and Sam is all over Dean about letting the vamp live. Dean is all over Sam about not looking for him.
– finally after Sam does the trials and Dean supports him in this Dean realizes it’s a death sentence and the brothers agree to choose each other and life over every thing else.
– Dean agrees to let his dying brother to be possessed by an angel to keep him alive while under stress and a short time span.
– Dean lies, feels guilty but goes with an “in for a penny, in for a pound” attitude. Kevin dies. Charlie, Cas and Sam live.
– Sam, now free of possession, blames Dean for everything that has gone wrong in his life, but has hugs for Cas and has previously asked Dean to lighten up on Cas. Sam has also had a heart to heart with the demon Meg (who possessed him) the season before about his time with Amelia. No hard truths for Meg or Cas. Just Dean because Dean is selfish and afraid to be alone and not worth saving under certain circumstance. Dean, who stood by his demon blood infected brother, no matter what.
My thinking is Dean has been so programmed to save Sam that its like you have to deprogram him from that somehow. Everyone knows heck angels and demons know thats all he does is save Sam. If he can get away from that I think both brothers can go on to live their lives. But again this is something that started with John when he left Dean in charge of Sam when he was younger. And then when John died to save Dean only to have him tell that secret to him which nearly destroyed Dean until he finally told Sam what he said. Then to have Sam say the same exact thing that he had to promise to kill him. Its like this is all Dean knows. Yes saving the world but also saving Sam. Not sure how you deprogram him not to think that way. I mean how do you go about it. Not sure Sam’s tough love like we are not brothers is the way to go about it. Dean expects Sam to be pissed. Only thing that is happening is that Sam is not helping the problem with the way he is going about it. I think seperation and meeting on hunts but not living in the same quarters and riding in same car and not acting like brothers is the way. Thats just tough love and just acting snippy towards Dean. But when something like this has been hotwired into Dean its like how do you hotwire it out of him to say ok don’t save me all the time think of the bigger picture. And you have to learn to let me go it maybe hard but you have to. Sam has to learn that the way he is going about it right now is not the best way to get through to Dean. Dean has guilt of Kevin, the lies, the mark of cain and also going after metatron and gadreel on his mind that its like the compounding of well we are not brothers but working together? Which I think seperate is the way to go. But to much is going on that its like well the fixing of the brothers codependency is just another distraction towards the problems at hand. I would think also sam would be smart enough to get another tattoo since I am guessing he won’t want anyone up inside of him I would think he would have run to the nearest tattoo place and got it put back on. I want to see how the brothers are without the codependency but its like they both need to sit down listen to each other out and not calling things out. But Sam needs to remember part of the problem is dad help create the problem with Dean. And codependency goes two way he maybe cured but hard to turn off being big brother and the one who has protected him after so long. I think talking to Cas would be good for Dean also.
My thinking is Dean has been so programmed to save Sam that its like you have to deprogram him from that somehow. Everyone knows heck angels and demons know thats all he does is save Sam. If he can get away from that I think both brothers can go on to live their lives. But again this is something that started with John when he left Dean in charge of Sam when he was younger. And then when John died to save Dean only to have him tell that secret to him which nearly destroyed Dean until he finally told Sam what he said. Then to have Sam say the same exact thing that he had to promise to kill him. Its like this is all Dean knows. Yes saving the world but also saving Sam. Not sure how you deprogram him not to think that way. I mean how do you go about it. Not sure Sam’s tough love like we are not brothers is the way to go about it. Dean expects Sam to be pissed. Only thing that is happening is that Sam is not helping the problem with the way he is going about it. I think seperation and meeting on hunts but not living in the same quarters and riding in same car and not acting like brothers is the way. Thats just tough love and just acting snippy towards Dean. But when something like this has been hotwired into Dean its like how do you hotwire it out of him to say ok don’t save me all the time think of the bigger picture. And you have to learn to let me go it maybe hard but you have to. Sam has to learn that the way he is going about it right now is not the best way to get through to Dean. Dean has guilt of Kevin, the lies, the mark of cain and also going after metatron and gadreel on his mind that its like the compounding of well we are not brothers but working together? Which I think seperate is the way to go. But to much is going on that its like well the fixing of the brothers codependency is just another distraction towards the problems at hand. I would think also sam would be smart enough to get another tattoo since I am guessing he won’t want anyone up inside of him I would think he would have run to the nearest tattoo place and got it put back on. I want to see how the brothers are without the codependency but its like they both need to sit down listen to each other out and not calling things out. But Sam needs to remember part of the problem is dad help create the problem with Dean. And codependency goes two way he maybe cured but hard to turn off being big brother and the one who has protected him after so long. I think talking to Cas would be good for Dean also.
If memory serves, Dean was actually very angry and hurt by Sam’s actions in season 4. I remember Dean calling Sam a monster and all but giving up on him. In fact, it took Bobby’s intervention and the realization that they were both being manipulated to make Dean reach out to Sam again. Even after that, there was no quick fix. Dean’s feelings were justified then, just as Sam’s feelings are now. I also don’t suscribe to the idea that everything said in anger should be taken at face value. I don’t believe Sam blames everything bad that ever happened to him on Dean, or that he has forgotten everything Dean has done and given up for him. He is understandbly upset at having his agency taken away from him yet again, and wouldn’t do that to Dean if the situation was reversed.
If memory serves, Dean was actually very angry and hurt by Sam’s actions in season 4. I remember Dean calling Sam a monster and all but giving up on him. In fact, it took Bobby’s intervention and the realization that they were both being manipulated to make Dean reach out to Sam again. Even after that, there was no quick fix. Dean’s feelings were justified then, just as Sam’s feelings are now. I also don’t suscribe to the idea that everything said in anger should be taken at face value. I don’t believe Sam blames everything bad that ever happened to him on Dean, or that he has forgotten everything Dean has done and given up for him. He is understandbly upset at having his agency taken away from him yet again, and wouldn’t do that to Dean if the situation was reversed.
Cat in that same conversation Dean told Sam he would go with him to kill Lilith but that Ruby was a deal breaker that she was a demon, manipulating Sam and hooking him on demon blood making him a monster. Yes, I agree that Bobby telling Dean to stop being a whiny brat brought Dean back to the real issue and Dean made the apology phone call that Sam never got.
My point is, I would be fine with Sam saying having him possessed was over the top and a breach of trust and he was mad as hell and would be a long time forgiving Dean, etc. That is not what Sam is saying though. Sam is saying Dean has caused all their problems, only sacrificed other people, is selfish and spent a lifetime doing more harm then good. Add to that we can be partners but not brothers and Sam will only save Dean under certain circumstances and not looking for Dean in purgatory. Well, I think you are comparing apples with oranges.
Cat in that same conversation Dean told Sam he would go with him to kill Lilith but that Ruby was a deal breaker that she was a demon, manipulating Sam and hooking him on demon blood making him a monster. Yes, I agree that Bobby telling Dean to stop being a whiny brat brought Dean back to the real issue and Dean made the apology phone call that Sam never got.
My point is, I would be fine with Sam saying having him possessed was over the top and a breach of trust and he was mad as hell and would be a long time forgiving Dean, etc. That is not what Sam is saying though. Sam is saying Dean has caused all their problems, only sacrificed other people, is selfish and spent a lifetime doing more harm then good. Add to that we can be partners but not brothers and Sam will only save Dean under certain circumstances and not looking for Dean in purgatory. Well, I think you are comparing apples with oranges.
[quote]Thank you for this article. Sam and Dean are both heroic and flawed. To me, that’s what makes them three-dimension al, interesting characters. I understand both Dean’s choices and Sam’s anger and frustration. [/quote]
Exactly! And the story needs to cover both issues … And they both look awesome in sports gear! and T-shirts … gets distracted ….
[quote]Thank you for this article. Sam and Dean are both heroic and flawed. To me, that’s what makes them three-dimension al, interesting characters. I understand both Dean’s choices and Sam’s anger and frustration. [/quote]
Exactly! And the story needs to cover both issues … And they both look awesome in sports gear! and T-shirts … gets distracted ….
sam didn’t say that dean has caused all their problems. he said that dean used “we’re family” as if it was the cure all to all their problems. dean has gone to extreme measures in saving sam and as a result sam, dean and others suffered for it. sam is saying that “we’re family ” isn’t a good enough reason to exonerate either one of them from the parts they played in others pain. sam questioning his motives for saving him is quite valid. it’s really an honest question as to understanding why dean goes to the measures he goes to, consequences be damned just to keep sam alive. does dean do it for sam or dean? that question is a question any psychiatrist would as dean as well. why the constant path to self destruction? because in every instance in which dean went to extreme measures to save sam, people died because of it. that’s a burden sam holds just as much as it’s a burden dean holds.
sam didnt tell dean they couldnt be brothers either. he made it pretty clear that if they were going to be brothers though they had to work at it.
and he didnt’ tell him he spent his lifetime doing more harm than good, he said that dean thinks he’s doing the right thing even though he’s doing more harm than good.
i think it’s important to understand that these are two different personalities. not only that but they’ve been affected differently by the tragedies they both shared and the ones they didn’t.
mary, who started it all, so yes we can blame the mother on this one. she gave sam up in a deal made to save john. sam’s entire life was affected by this action. he had db in him. he confessed to dean that he felt unclean as a child. because of this one action, sam has been manipulated by demons since his school days. he’s never felt normal. and thus created him a desire to seek out normal. to be safe. that’s what he told dean in the pilot…not normal…safe.
dean of course is also affected by mary’s deal as it ultimately led to her death and caused john to become a hunter and drag his children into the life and you know the rest.
john makes a demon deal to save dean. but dean wasn’t happy and grateful to his father for what he did. he was actually quite tormented by it all through s2. what’s dead should stay dead. as i recall dean made quite the speech to the guy in crossroads about how she might feel for making that deal to save her life.
sam watches his brother in s2 live with the burden of guilt and saw how much it twisted his brother.
ironically though as i guess it is with most children who are abused, they become the abusers themselves. i’m not saying dean is abusive. what i’m getting at is, as much as he’s experienced what it’s like to be saved by extreme measures, with all the pain and guilt and sadness he felt. telling sam it was unnatural, and yet he repeated exactly the same thing. he followed in the footsteps of both his parents and made a demon deal.
and look at the consequences to that. it led to the near apocalypse. and ended with sam in the pit. so dean brought sam back from heaven, only to lose his for eternity to hell. now dean has to live with that pain and guilt. he was still drinking when he was with lisa. sure he had his happy moments. he was moving on, but there was a brokenness in dean that no one could fix.
in mystery spot the trickster told sam that there was a lesson he was trying to get through that cro magnon head of his. he told him all the sacrificing they do for ea. other only ends up in more pain and blood. he told him that no matter what he did he couldn’t save his brother. he said that the bad guys knew that about them and it would be the death of him. he told him sometimes you just have to let people go. but sam couldn’t/wouldn’t listen to what the trickster was saying. not then. but i think in retrospect he understands that lesson now. in the end though sam couldn’t save dean and had to live with the pain and guilt of knowing that dean was in hell and it was because of him. and that’s what led him to his path of revenge.
you know what it’s exactly how the angels and demons knew he’d react. yed said it. trickster said it. i think even zach said it they all told them in one form or another that they depended on sam and dean’s never ending sacrificial relationship to fulfill what they deemed to be the boys destiny. why do you think they were chosen in the first place?
sam didn’t say that dean has caused all their problems. he said that dean used “we’re family” as if it was the cure all to all their problems. dean has gone to extreme measures in saving sam and as a result sam, dean and others suffered for it. sam is saying that “we’re family ” isn’t a good enough reason to exonerate either one of them from the parts they played in others pain. sam questioning his motives for saving him is quite valid. it’s really an honest question as to understanding why dean goes to the measures he goes to, consequences be damned just to keep sam alive. does dean do it for sam or dean? that question is a question any psychiatrist would as dean as well. why the constant path to self destruction? because in every instance in which dean went to extreme measures to save sam, people died because of it. that’s a burden sam holds just as much as it’s a burden dean holds.
sam didnt tell dean they couldnt be brothers either. he made it pretty clear that if they were going to be brothers though they had to work at it.
and he didnt’ tell him he spent his lifetime doing more harm than good, he said that dean thinks he’s doing the right thing even though he’s doing more harm than good.
i think it’s important to understand that these are two different personalities. not only that but they’ve been affected differently by the tragedies they both shared and the ones they didn’t.
mary, who started it all, so yes we can blame the mother on this one. she gave sam up in a deal made to save john. sam’s entire life was affected by this action. he had db in him. he confessed to dean that he felt unclean as a child. because of this one action, sam has been manipulated by demons since his school days. he’s never felt normal. and thus created him a desire to seek out normal. to be safe. that’s what he told dean in the pilot…not normal…safe.
dean of course is also affected by mary’s deal as it ultimately led to her death and caused john to become a hunter and drag his children into the life and you know the rest.
john makes a demon deal to save dean. but dean wasn’t happy and grateful to his father for what he did. he was actually quite tormented by it all through s2. what’s dead should stay dead. as i recall dean made quite the speech to the guy in crossroads about how she might feel for making that deal to save her life.
sam watches his brother in s2 live with the burden of guilt and saw how much it twisted his brother.
ironically though as i guess it is with most children who are abused, they become the abusers themselves. i’m not saying dean is abusive. what i’m getting at is, as much as he’s experienced what it’s like to be saved by extreme measures, with all the pain and guilt and sadness he felt. telling sam it was unnatural, and yet he repeated exactly the same thing. he followed in the footsteps of both his parents and made a demon deal.
and look at the consequences to that. it led to the near apocalypse. and ended with sam in the pit. so dean brought sam back from heaven, only to lose his for eternity to hell. now dean has to live with that pain and guilt. he was still drinking when he was with lisa. sure he had his happy moments. he was moving on, but there was a brokenness in dean that no one could fix.
in mystery spot the trickster told sam that there was a lesson he was trying to get through that cro magnon head of his. he told him all the sacrificing they do for ea. other only ends up in more pain and blood. he told him that no matter what he did he couldn’t save his brother. he said that the bad guys knew that about them and it would be the death of him. he told him sometimes you just have to let people go. but sam couldn’t/wouldn’t listen to what the trickster was saying. not then. but i think in retrospect he understands that lesson now. in the end though sam couldn’t save dean and had to live with the pain and guilt of knowing that dean was in hell and it was because of him. and that’s what led him to his path of revenge.
you know what it’s exactly how the angels and demons knew he’d react. yed said it. trickster said it. i think even zach said it they all told them in one form or another that they depended on sam and dean’s never ending sacrificial relationship to fulfill what they deemed to be the boys destiny. why do you think they were chosen in the first place?
In [i]When the Levee Breaks[/i] Sam said “I need her to kill Lilith”. So Dean was asking him to cast aside the one person who could help him kill Lilith and, as they believed, stop Lucifer from rising.
Sam didn’t say that Dean caused all their problems. He said that everything that had gone wrong between them was because they were family; [i]they[/i] not [i]he[/i]..
Sam didn’t say Dean only sacrificed other people, he said that he (Dean) is certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as he’s not the one getting hurt.
Being willing to do the exact same thing again, the thing that caused so much devastation to other people, regardless of the what the person he is ‘saving’ wants, just so that he can get what he wants “You and me – fighting the good fight together” is selfish.
Sam didn’t say Dean spent a lifetime doing more harm than good. He said “You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad…But you’re not” In terms of Sam, Dean is doing more harm than good; not Dean has spent a lifetime doing more harm than good.
Sam didn’t say they can be partners but not brothers. He said ‘If you want to be brothers…’ Why would he say that if he didn’t want them to be brothers?
Sam said that he wouldn’t do the same thing as Dean under the same circumstances. Why is that a bad thing? Do you believe that Sam should set the world to burn or sacrifice other people to get his brother back, even if his brother doesn’t want to come back.
Also, there would be no point looking for him in Purgatory because Sam believed Dean was dead.
In [i]When the Levee Breaks[/i] Sam said “I need her to kill Lilith”. So Dean was asking him to cast aside the one person who could help him kill Lilith and, as they believed, stop Lucifer from rising.
Sam didn’t say that Dean caused all their problems. He said that everything that had gone wrong between them was because they were family; [i]they[/i] not [i]he[/i]..
Sam didn’t say Dean only sacrificed other people, he said that he (Dean) is certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as he’s not the one getting hurt.
Being willing to do the exact same thing again, the thing that caused so much devastation to other people, regardless of the what the person he is ‘saving’ wants, just so that he can get what he wants “You and me – fighting the good fight together” is selfish.
Sam didn’t say Dean spent a lifetime doing more harm than good. He said “You think you’re my savior, my brother, the hero. You swoop in, and even when you mess up, you think what you’re doing is worth it because you’ve convinced yourself you’re doing more good than bad…But you’re not” In terms of Sam, Dean is doing more harm than good; not Dean has spent a lifetime doing more harm than good.
Sam didn’t say they can be partners but not brothers. He said ‘If you want to be brothers…’ Why would he say that if he didn’t want them to be brothers?
Sam said that he wouldn’t do the same thing as Dean under the same circumstances. Why is that a bad thing? Do you believe that Sam should set the world to burn or sacrifice other people to get his brother back, even if his brother doesn’t want to come back.
Also, there would be no point looking for him in Purgatory because Sam believed Dean was dead.
[quote name=”JuliaG”]JJ, Sam is being written this way to make Dean seem more sympathetic IMO, and to set up his downfall. [/quote]
But to be fair, Dean was setup to be the bad guy by the writers in the first place. The writers keep placing Dean in this cycle of having to save Sam’s life, and they’re the ones who created this convoluted angel possession storyline so that Dean would be the “bad” guy, the brother who won’t let Sam grow up or make his own choices.
The infuriating thing is that Dean actually DID learn to let Sam go. That was Kripke’s lesson for him in Swan Song, and Dean did support Sam in whatever he decided to do, even though he risked dying. But then, the writers apparently forgot or neglected this character growth by Dean in order to bring him right back to having to save Sam (i.e. his soul) for their soulless Sam storyline.
And now again with this season they wanted an angel possessed Sam storyline, so they write a storyline where Dean has to yet again save Sam. IMO, it’s Dean who gets thrown under the bus again and again because the writers want to keep this codependent cycle going — where Dean is the one who does questionable things to save Sam.
The writers could have followed through with Dean’s character growth of Swan Song, but they chose not to, knowing full well that what it would do to Dean’s characterization.
[quote]JJ, Sam is being written this way to make Dean seem more sympathetic IMO, and to set up his downfall. [/quote]
But to be fair, Dean was setup to be the bad guy by the writers in the first place. The writers keep placing Dean in this cycle of having to save Sam’s life, and they’re the ones who created this convoluted angel possession storyline so that Dean would be the “bad” guy, the brother who won’t let Sam grow up or make his own choices.
The infuriating thing is that Dean actually DID learn to let Sam go. That was Kripke’s lesson for him in Swan Song, and Dean did support Sam in whatever he decided to do, even though he risked dying. But then, the writers apparently forgot or neglected this character growth by Dean in order to bring him right back to having to save Sam (i.e. his soul) for their soulless Sam storyline.
And now again with this season they wanted an angel possessed Sam storyline, so they write a storyline where Dean has to yet again save Sam. IMO, it’s Dean who gets thrown under the bus again and again because the writers want to keep this codependent cycle going — where Dean is the one who does questionable things to save Sam.
The writers could have followed through with Dean’s character growth of Swan Song, but they chose not to, knowing full well that what it would do to Dean’s characterization.
[quote name=”Prix68″]Let’s look at the Winchester history from a different perspective.
– Dean lies, feels guilty but goes with an “in for a penny, in for a pound” attitude. Kevin dies. Charlie, Cas and Sam live.
[/quote]
FYI Castiel was killed tis season as a direct result of GAdreel possessing Sam and Dean lying about it. If one or the other hadn’;t happened Castiel would have been safetly ensconced in the MOL Bunker….thus never dying in the first place.
AND Castiel could have alerted Dean that an imposter was possessing Sam and helped evict him. (if Dean had bothered to tell Castiel about the possession) Thus Kevin would still be alive.
[quote]Let’s look at the Winchester history from a different perspective.
– Dean lies, feels guilty but goes with an “in for a penny, in for a pound” attitude. Kevin dies. Charlie, Cas and Sam live.
[/quote]
FYI Castiel was killed tis season as a direct result of GAdreel possessing Sam and Dean lying about it. If one or the other hadn’;t happened Castiel would have been safetly ensconced in the MOL Bunker….thus never dying in the first place.
AND Castiel could have alerted Dean that an imposter was possessing Sam and helped evict him. (if Dean had bothered to tell Castiel about the possession) Thus Kevin would still be alive.
it wasn’t about sam being disobedient and not following dad’s plans so he gets to be lucifer and dean the obedient son gets to be michael. the winchesters were chosen from the start because of their sacrificial nature. they counted on it and used it to their advantage.
sam get semi rescued from the pit. he ends up soulless. again, saved by extreme measures. while i was very happy that he was saved, he did end up suffering out of the cage as much as in the cage. soulless sam let innocents die. he had no moral compass at all. he turned his brother into a vamp, he led the sheriff into a trap, he killed that girl so she wouldn’t be a hostage and he almost killed bobby. these are all acts that we know of that sam has to live with once his soul is returned to him. he bears the burden of guilt for others pain again.
he loves his brother more than anything so he puts his broken psyche back together after cas breaks his wall because he won’t leave his brother alone out there. see, he loves dean just as much as dean loves him. their love for ea. other is equal in my eyes.
short story long, sam suffers a near mental breakdown, which leads to a physical breakdown and almost dies. luckily cas took away sam’s crazy. but cas didn’t take away sam’s memories. add in bobby’s death, twice and his belief that his brother and cas just died and he was utterly and truly alone and i gotta say, it all adds up to me like a changed sam.
therein lies one of the differences between sam and dean. sam has learned from the pain and suffering and the loss. he’s had enough. he imploded and ran when he believed dean was dead, but he honored a promise they made to ea. other and as much as it hurt, he accepted his brother’s death. he didn’t use extreme measures to get him back. dean said not to so he did as dean wished.
sam changed. with all that he’s personally experienced that dean really didnt, i think it’s perfectly understandable that he would. i’m glad he did. he’s finally come to understand that using extreme measures to save ea. other only ends in blood and more pain, which is exactly what the trickster tried to explain to him back in mystery spot.
dean hasn’t changed. maybe it’s because he didn’t experience the same things sam has as often. dean was saved once by extreme measures, though i would think he would’ve learned from that; sam on the other hand has been saved by extreme measures a few times now and every time it’s happened people have gotten hurt or died because of it. too often by his own hand. that weighs on him. he’ll never be able to forget that . something like that happens often enough it influences your way of thinking. that’s what i think has happened to sam.
i don’t agree that they should be apart. that’s not going to fix what’s wrong between them. the only way to fix what’s wrong is to talk. there’s a lot of, sam has to understand this, sam has to understand that and i agree with some of that. but dean also has to do a little understanding of his own as well.
i don’t think having a pity party for dean right now is the way to go. dean has said some pretty cruel things to sam out of anger to get his point across so i think it’s pretty understandable that sam would say things that dean didn’t like to get his point across. especially with dean’s tendency to harp on stuff. so if sam makes it a point that they’ll work as partners but as brothers…(well that’s gonna take work too,) he knows that that’s something dean will harp on. when he asks dean if he didn’t sleep because of what he said, dean’s response that he didn’t break that easy , tells sam that dean was in fact bothered by it. he didn’t just say that to hurt dean you know. he said it so that they can fix what’s broken. the last thing dean needs is to think all is ok, he thinks that then nothing gets fixed. dean sweeps it under the rug. this time sam isn’t letting him do that. i think it speaks volumes of sam’s strength of character.
now sam learns that dean would do everything all over again? after everything that’s happened.
well for sam, that’s definitely not ok.
sam has learned that messing with the natural order, using extreme measures only ends in suffering.
dean hasn’t seemed to learn this lesson that the universe seems to have been trying to teach him for awhile now.
i hope that show continues with what they’ve been doing with sam and dean. i hope they don’t drop it. i hope they keep on talking. i don’t want sam to ease up on dean. it needs to all come out. sam needs explain his pov. dean needs to explain his pov. the one thing no showrunner has done is let sam and dean really explore their issues. they created them, but they never resolved them. i think jc is going to finally do just that. it can’t happen if they aint talking and history has shown that dean tends not to want to discuss. sam’s changing history right now. i say it’s about damn time.
it wasn’t about sam being disobedient and not following dad’s plans so he gets to be lucifer and dean the obedient son gets to be michael. the winchesters were chosen from the start because of their sacrificial nature. they counted on it and used it to their advantage.
sam get semi rescued from the pit. he ends up soulless. again, saved by extreme measures. while i was very happy that he was saved, he did end up suffering out of the cage as much as in the cage. soulless sam let innocents die. he had no moral compass at all. he turned his brother into a vamp, he led the sheriff into a trap, he killed that girl so she wouldn’t be a hostage and he almost killed bobby. these are all acts that we know of that sam has to live with once his soul is returned to him. he bears the burden of guilt for others pain again.
he loves his brother more than anything so he puts his broken psyche back together after cas breaks his wall because he won’t leave his brother alone out there. see, he loves dean just as much as dean loves him. their love for ea. other is equal in my eyes.
short story long, sam suffers a near mental breakdown, which leads to a physical breakdown and almost dies. luckily cas took away sam’s crazy. but cas didn’t take away sam’s memories. add in bobby’s death, twice and his belief that his brother and cas just died and he was utterly and truly alone and i gotta say, it all adds up to me like a changed sam.
therein lies one of the differences between sam and dean. sam has learned from the pain and suffering and the loss. he’s had enough. he imploded and ran when he believed dean was dead, but he honored a promise they made to ea. other and as much as it hurt, he accepted his brother’s death. he didn’t use extreme measures to get him back. dean said not to so he did as dean wished.
sam changed. with all that he’s personally experienced that dean really didnt, i think it’s perfectly understandable that he would. i’m glad he did. he’s finally come to understand that using extreme measures to save ea. other only ends in blood and more pain, which is exactly what the trickster tried to explain to him back in mystery spot.
dean hasn’t changed. maybe it’s because he didn’t experience the same things sam has as often. dean was saved once by extreme measures, though i would think he would’ve learned from that; sam on the other hand has been saved by extreme measures a few times now and every time it’s happened people have gotten hurt or died because of it. too often by his own hand. that weighs on him. he’ll never be able to forget that . something like that happens often enough it influences your way of thinking. that’s what i think has happened to sam.
i don’t agree that they should be apart. that’s not going to fix what’s wrong between them. the only way to fix what’s wrong is to talk. there’s a lot of, sam has to understand this, sam has to understand that and i agree with some of that. but dean also has to do a little understanding of his own as well.
i don’t think having a pity party for dean right now is the way to go. dean has said some pretty cruel things to sam out of anger to get his point across so i think it’s pretty understandable that sam would say things that dean didn’t like to get his point across. especially with dean’s tendency to harp on stuff. so if sam makes it a point that they’ll work as partners but as brothers…(well that’s gonna take work too,) he knows that that’s something dean will harp on. when he asks dean if he didn’t sleep because of what he said, dean’s response that he didn’t break that easy , tells sam that dean was in fact bothered by it. he didn’t just say that to hurt dean you know. he said it so that they can fix what’s broken. the last thing dean needs is to think all is ok, he thinks that then nothing gets fixed. dean sweeps it under the rug. this time sam isn’t letting him do that. i think it speaks volumes of sam’s strength of character.
now sam learns that dean would do everything all over again? after everything that’s happened.
well for sam, that’s definitely not ok.
sam has learned that messing with the natural order, using extreme measures only ends in suffering.
dean hasn’t seemed to learn this lesson that the universe seems to have been trying to teach him for awhile now.
i hope that show continues with what they’ve been doing with sam and dean. i hope they don’t drop it. i hope they keep on talking. i don’t want sam to ease up on dean. it needs to all come out. sam needs explain his pov. dean needs to explain his pov. the one thing no showrunner has done is let sam and dean really explore their issues. they created them, but they never resolved them. i think jc is going to finally do just that. it can’t happen if they aint talking and history has shown that dean tends not to want to discuss. sam’s changing history right now. i say it’s about damn time.
[quote name=”amyh”][quote name=”Prix68″]Let’s look at the Winchester history from a different perspective.
– Dean lies, feels guilty but goes with an “in for a penny, in for a pound” attitude. Kevin dies. Charlie, Cas and Sam live.
[/quote]
FYI Castiel was killed tis season as a direct result of GAdreel possessing Sam and Dean lying about it. If one or the other hadn’;t happened Castiel would have been safetly ensconced in the MOL Bunker….thus never dying in the first place.
AND Castiel could have alerted Dean that an imposter was possessing Sam and helped evict him. (if Dean had bothered to tell Castiel about the possession) Thus Kevin would still be alive.[/quote]
Gad was doing what he could to stay away from anything angely. Dean was going to the angels stuff because that is what him and sam do. Gad should know that since he is possessing a hunter. And I doubt since Cas was human he would have known which angel was possessing sam. Gad was just keeping his distance but never did Cas suspect an angel in sam until dean told him everything in road trip. And when Cas told him about Zeke being dead. And Cas was killed because Dean told him to come to the bunker thinking he could find his way from where he was at then dean and sam went looking for him when they found out he might be hunted. Dean wanted to keep cas at the bunker gad fearing cas would figure out who he was wanted him gone. I don’t think he would have I mean crowley knew enough angels and how did he not see sam had an angel inside him. I kept waiting for that to happen.
[quote][quote]Let’s look at the Winchester history from a different perspective.
– Dean lies, feels guilty but goes with an “in for a penny, in for a pound” attitude. Kevin dies. Charlie, Cas and Sam live.
[/quote]
FYI Castiel was killed tis season as a direct result of GAdreel possessing Sam and Dean lying about it. If one or the other hadn’;t happened Castiel would have been safetly ensconced in the MOL Bunker….thus never dying in the first place.
AND Castiel could have alerted Dean that an imposter was possessing Sam and helped evict him. (if Dean had bothered to tell Castiel about the possession) Thus Kevin would still be alive.[/quote]
Gad was doing what he could to stay away from anything angely. Dean was going to the angels stuff because that is what him and sam do. Gad should know that since he is possessing a hunter. And I doubt since Cas was human he would have known which angel was possessing sam. Gad was just keeping his distance but never did Cas suspect an angel in sam until dean told him everything in road trip. And when Cas told him about Zeke being dead. And Cas was killed because Dean told him to come to the bunker thinking he could find his way from where he was at then dean and sam went looking for him when they found out he might be hunted. Dean wanted to keep cas at the bunker gad fearing cas would figure out who he was wanted him gone. I don’t think he would have I mean crowley knew enough angels and how did he not see sam had an angel inside him. I kept waiting for that to happen.
Thanks Suenash19, great read and I hope I get to read more from you.
#35 Nappi815 – you took the words out of my mouth and I thank you.
Thanks Suenash19, great read and I hope I get to read more from you.
#35 Nappi815 – you took the words out of my mouth and I thank you.
Amyh – Cas was killed while Sam/Zeke and Dean were trying to locate Cas to bring him to the bunker. Gadreel actually helped Dean locate Cas and then saved his life. Cas being thrown out of the bunker came later.
Amyh – Cas was killed while Sam/Zeke and Dean were trying to locate Cas to bring him to the bunker. Gadreel actually helped Dean locate Cas and then saved his life. Cas being thrown out of the bunker came later.
[quote name=”Cat”]If memory serves, Dean was actually very angry and hurt by Sam’s actions in season 4. I remember Dean calling Sam a monster and all but giving up on him. In fact, it took Bobby’s intervention and the realization that they were both being manipulated to make Dean reach out to Sam again. Even after that, there was no quick fix. Dean’s feelings were justified then, just as Sam’s feelings are now. I also don’t suscribe to the idea that everything said in anger should be taken at face value. I don’t believe Sam blames everything bad that ever happened to him on Dean, or that he has forgotten everything Dean has done and given up for him. He is understandbly upset at having his agency taken away from him yet again, and wouldn’t do that to Dean if the situation was reversed.[/quote]
So true!
[quote]If memory serves, Dean was actually very angry and hurt by Sam’s actions in season 4. I remember Dean calling Sam a monster and all but giving up on him. In fact, it took Bobby’s intervention and the realization that they were both being manipulated to make Dean reach out to Sam again. Even after that, there was no quick fix. Dean’s feelings were justified then, just as Sam’s feelings are now. I also don’t suscribe to the idea that everything said in anger should be taken at face value. I don’t believe Sam blames everything bad that ever happened to him on Dean, or that he has forgotten everything Dean has done and given up for him. He is understandbly upset at having his agency taken away from him yet again, and wouldn’t do that to Dean if the situation was reversed.[/quote]
So true!
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”JuliaG”]JJ, Sam is being written this way to make Dean seem more sympathetic IMO, and to set up his downfall. [/quote]
But to be fair, Dean was setup to be the bad guy by the writers in the first place.
…
The writers could have followed through with Dean’s character growth of Swan Song, but they chose not to, knowing full well that what it would do to Dean’s characterization.[/quote]
I agree with this. Dean was set up to be the bad guy by the writers, and they didn’t follow through with his character growth at the end of S5, which is a shame.
I think the writers just decided that Sam had gone darkside in S4, Cas is a mass murderer after S6/S7 and now it’s Dean’s turn to be the bad guy. So far he’s actually getting off quite lightly. He hasn’t started the Apocalypse after all 😀
[quote][quote]JJ, Sam is being written this way to make Dean seem more sympathetic IMO, and to set up his downfall. [/quote]
But to be fair, Dean was setup to be the bad guy by the writers in the first place.
…
The writers could have followed through with Dean’s character growth of Swan Song, but they chose not to, knowing full well that what it would do to Dean’s characterization.[/quote]
I agree with this. Dean was set up to be the bad guy by the writers, and they didn’t follow through with his character growth at the end of S5, which is a shame.
I think the writers just decided that Sam had gone darkside in S4, Cas is a mass murderer after S6/S7 and now it’s Dean’s turn to be the bad guy. So far he’s actually getting off quite lightly. He hasn’t started the Apocalypse after all 😀
[quote name=”nappi815″]
i hope that show continues with what they’ve been doing with sam and dean. i hope they don’t drop it. i hope they keep on talking. i don’t want sam to ease up on dean. it needs to all come out. sam needs explain his pov. dean needs to explain his pov. the one thing no showrunner has done is let sam and dean really explore their issues. they created them, but they never resolved them. i think jc is going to finally do just that. it can’t happen if they aint talking and history has shown that dean tends not to want to discuss. sam’s changing history right now. i say it’s about damn time.[/quote]
Hallelujah. I’d love to see the boys talk, sort themselves out and get over their s&%t
😀
[quote]
i hope that show continues with what they’ve been doing with sam and dean. i hope they don’t drop it. i hope they keep on talking. i don’t want sam to ease up on dean. it needs to all come out. sam needs explain his pov. dean needs to explain his pov. the one thing no showrunner has done is let sam and dean really explore their issues. they created them, but they never resolved them. i think jc is going to finally do just that. it can’t happen if they aint talking and history has shown that dean tends not to want to discuss. sam’s changing history right now. i say it’s about damn time.[/quote]
Hallelujah. I’d love to see the boys talk, sort themselves out and get over their s&%t
😀
[quote name=”eilf”]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
😛
[quote]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
😛
Thank you SueNash. It was important to have Sam’s POV since we get so little in the show. I was so upset when Cas and Sam were together and it was CAS who did the talking. I wanted to hear how Sam felt about the possession. All we’ve seen so far is his suicidal urges and his anger. He hasn’t been able to explain the pain he must be feeling at having his agency taken away again. And being used as an instrument of murder, again.
Thank you SueNash. It was important to have Sam’s POV since we get so little in the show. I was so upset when Cas and Sam were together and it was CAS who did the talking. I wanted to hear how Sam felt about the possession. All we’ve seen so far is his suicidal urges and his anger. He hasn’t been able to explain the pain he must be feeling at having his agency taken away again. And being used as an instrument of murder, again.
i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.
i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”eilf”]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
:P[/quote]
listen girls i’ll consider sharing with you both, as soon as i’m finished with him. 😆
[quote][quote]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
:P[/quote]
listen girls i’ll consider sharing with you both, as soon as i’m finished with him. 😆
[quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.[/quote]
But they’re so HOT when they’re bad!
[quote]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.[/quote]
But they’re so HOT when they’re bad!
[quote name=”nappi815″][quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”eilf”]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
:P[/quote]
listen girls i’ll consider sharing with you both, as soon as i’m finished with him. :lol:[/quote]
hmmm…”as soon as I’m finished with him’ …. I sense that I may have not thought it through when I said I would share ….
Ok nappi I need to hear your reasons why you get dibs 8) because I suspect as ‘soon as I’m finished with him’ might be a while.
As for you MC I’ll see you outside! We can sort this out like … ladies?
[quote][quote][quote]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
:P[/quote]
listen girls i’ll consider sharing with you both, as soon as i’m finished with him. :lol:[/quote]
hmmm…”as soon as I’m finished with him’ …. I sense that I may have not thought it through when I said I would share ….
Ok nappi I need to hear your reasons why you get dibs 8) because I suspect as ‘soon as I’m finished with him’ might be a while.
As for you MC I’ll see you outside! We can sort this out like … ladies?
Dear All,
Wow!
This is the first time I have submitted an article like this. – Thank you for the (veritable explosion of) comments! – and the delicious salad!…
Hopefully for some this has helped them to see what my Sammy has been going through. (Yes – Mine! Shotgun! Lol :D)
I think some of you (Elif, Nappi, MC I am looking at you…) may also appreciate a matter I brought up a while ago about one of the Season 9 plot points . At the time of writing it is at the bottom of this thread:
[url]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/17968-let-s-discuss-the-pretty-do-n-t-objectify-me-part-three[/url]
(Click on the [b]http[/b] – link does work)
Sue 🙂
Dear All,
Wow!
This is the first time I have submitted an article like this. – Thank you for the (veritable explosion of) comments! – and the delicious salad!…
Hopefully for some this has helped them to see what my Sammy has been going through. (Yes – Mine! Shotgun! Lol :D)
I think some of you (Elif, Nappi, MC I am looking at you…) may also appreciate a matter I brought up a while ago about one of the Season 9 plot points . At the time of writing it is at the bottom of this thread:
[url]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/17968-let-s-discuss-the-pretty-do-n-t-objectify-me-part-three[/url]
(Click on the [b]http[/b] – link does work)
Sue 🙂
[quote name=”suenash19″]Dear All,
Wow!
This is the first time I have submitted an article like this. – Thank you for the (veritable explosion of) comments! – and the delicious salad!…
Hopefully for some this has helped them to see what my Sammy has been going through. (Yes – Mine! Shotgun! Lol :D)
I think some of you (Elif, Nappi, MC I am looking at you…) may also appreciate a matter I brought up a while ago about one of the Season 9 plot points . At the time of writing it is at the bottom of this thread:
[url]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/17968-let-s-discuss-the-pretty-do-n-t-objectify-me-part-three[/url]
(Click on the [b]http[/b] – link does work)
Sue :-)[/quote]
I seem to remember appreciating the hell out of that post when it went up 😀
[quote]Dear All,
Wow!
This is the first time I have submitted an article like this. – Thank you for the (veritable explosion of) comments! – and the delicious salad!…
Hopefully for some this has helped them to see what my Sammy has been going through. (Yes – Mine! Shotgun! Lol :D)
I think some of you (Elif, Nappi, MC I am looking at you…) may also appreciate a matter I brought up a while ago about one of the Season 9 plot points . At the time of writing it is at the bottom of this thread:
[url]https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/article-archives/lets-discuss/17968-let-s-discuss-the-pretty-do-n-t-objectify-me-part-three[/url]
(Click on the [b]http[/b] – link does work)
Sue :-)[/quote]
I seem to remember appreciating the hell out of that post when it went up 😀
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]Thank you SueNash. It was important to have Sam’s POV since we get so little in the show. I was so upset when Cas and Sam were together and it was CAS who did the talking. I wanted to hear how Sam felt about the possession. All we’ve seen so far is his suicidal urges and his anger. He hasn’t been able to explain the pain he must be feeling at having his agency taken away again. And being used as an instrument of murder, again.[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more, Manzanita! It’s most of the reason you see so many saying “Why is Sam so cruel?” as if Dean hasn’t been cruel himself sometimes, and with seemingly no understanding of how much pain Sam is in.
Thank you SO MUCH Sue, for this wonderful article.
[quote]Thank you SueNash. It was important to have Sam’s POV since we get so little in the show. I was so upset when Cas and Sam were together and it was CAS who did the talking. I wanted to hear how Sam felt about the possession. All we’ve seen so far is his suicidal urges and his anger. He hasn’t been able to explain the pain he must be feeling at having his agency taken away again. And being used as an instrument of murder, again.[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more, Manzanita! It’s most of the reason you see so many saying “Why is Sam so cruel?” as if Dean hasn’t been cruel himself sometimes, and with seemingly no understanding of how much pain Sam is in.
Thank you SO MUCH Sue, for this wonderful article.
[quote name=”eilf”]
As for you MC I’ll see you outside! We can sort this out like … ladies?[/quote]
I’m no lady and that’s why I’ll win! Your ass is mine
[quote]
As for you MC I’ll see you outside! We can sort this out like … ladies?[/quote]
I’m no lady and that’s why I’ll win! Your ass is mine
Thanks for this review. Nice to see that you get what was wrong with what Dean did.
Now Dean needs to see that and hopefully that is where the story is going. The relationship they’ve had has been too one-sided and needs to change.
I think that Sam really needed to be harsh in order to get Dean’s attention. Otherwise Dean will just gloss it over and continue on the way he has.
Since Dean has never wanted to be possessed himself (Michael) why does he think it’s okay to let Sam be possessed.
Sam is the victim in all this and shouldn’t be blamed for sticking up for himself.
Thanks for this review. Nice to see that you get what was wrong with what Dean did.
Now Dean needs to see that and hopefully that is where the story is going. The relationship they’ve had has been too one-sided and needs to change.
I think that Sam really needed to be harsh in order to get Dean’s attention. Otherwise Dean will just gloss it over and continue on the way he has.
Since Dean has never wanted to be possessed himself (Michael) why does he think it’s okay to let Sam be possessed.
Sam is the victim in all this and shouldn’t be blamed for sticking up for himself.
[quote name=”Jo1027″]Thanks for this review. Nice to see that you get what was wrong with what Dean did.
Now Dean needs to see that and hopefully that is where the story is going. The relationship they’ve had has been too one-sided and needs to change.
I think that Sam really needed to be harsh in order to get Dean’s attention. Otherwise Dean will just gloss it over and continue on the way he has.
Since Dean has never wanted to be possessed himself (Michael) why does he think it’s okay to let Sam be possessed.
Sam is the victim in all this and shouldn’t be blamed for sticking up for himself.[/quote]
Dean in “point of no return” was all set to give himself to Michael heck he did whatever he could do to get to zachariah and say yes. He was stopped by sam and cas at hotel room where he packed up his stuff and was sending to bobby’s and also said good bye to lisa. He was going to make sure lisa and ben where not caught in cross fire that they were safe. He hasn’t been possessed because kripke wrote it so sam was only one possessed. he was on the verge of yes. I think if anything sam is going to either stop dean from killing cain if he kills cain he will never die.
[quote]Thanks for this review. Nice to see that you get what was wrong with what Dean did.
Now Dean needs to see that and hopefully that is where the story is going. The relationship they’ve had has been too one-sided and needs to change.
I think that Sam really needed to be harsh in order to get Dean’s attention. Otherwise Dean will just gloss it over and continue on the way he has.
Since Dean has never wanted to be possessed himself (Michael) why does he think it’s okay to let Sam be possessed.
Sam is the victim in all this and shouldn’t be blamed for sticking up for himself.[/quote]
Dean in “point of no return” was all set to give himself to Michael heck he did whatever he could do to get to zachariah and say yes. He was stopped by sam and cas at hotel room where he packed up his stuff and was sending to bobby’s and also said good bye to lisa. He was going to make sure lisa and ben where not caught in cross fire that they were safe. He hasn’t been possessed because kripke wrote it so sam was only one possessed. he was on the verge of yes. I think if anything sam is going to either stop dean from killing cain if he kills cain he will never die.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]I think the writers just decided that Sam had gone darkside in S4, Cas is a mass murderer after S6/S7 and now it’s Dean’s turn to be the bad guy. So far he’s actually getting off quite lightly. He hasn’t started the Apocalypse after all :D[/quote]
No, he just “metaphorically” raped and abused his brother, according to some fans. And according to the show, he’s done more harm than good, and he’s NEVER had to sacrifice or suffer.
I don’t agree he’s getting off lightly, at all.
[quote]I think the writers just decided that Sam had gone darkside in S4, Cas is a mass murderer after S6/S7 and now it’s Dean’s turn to be the bad guy. So far he’s actually getting off quite lightly. He hasn’t started the Apocalypse after all :D[/quote]
No, he just “metaphorically” raped and abused his brother, according to some fans. And according to the show, he’s done more harm than good, and he’s NEVER had to sacrifice or suffer.
I don’t agree he’s getting off lightly, at all.
[quote name=”lianne”][quote name=”Manzanita Crow”]I think the writers just decided that Sam had gone darkside in S4, Cas is a mass murderer after S6/S7 and now it’s Dean’s turn to be the bad guy. So far he’s actually getting off quite lightly. He hasn’t started the Apocalypse after all :D[/quote]
No, he just “metaphorically” raped and abused his brother, according to some fans. And according to the show, he’s done more harm than good, and he’s NEVER had to sacrifice or suffer.
I don’t agree he’s getting off lightly, at all.[/quote]
And to alot of fans he did nothing wrong but love his brother too much .As for the words the writers had Sam say it is not Dean getting the anger for those words.
[quote][quote]I think the writers just decided that Sam had gone darkside in S4, Cas is a mass murderer after S6/S7 and now it’s Dean’s turn to be the bad guy. So far he’s actually getting off quite lightly. He hasn’t started the Apocalypse after all :D[/quote]
No, he just “metaphorically” raped and abused his brother, according to some fans. And according to the show, he’s done more harm than good, and he’s NEVER had to sacrifice or suffer.
I don’t agree he’s getting off lightly, at all.[/quote]
And to alot of fans he did nothing wrong but love his brother too much .As for the words the writers had Sam say it is not Dean getting the anger for those words.
[quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.[/quote]
Nappi815 – didn’t Kripke address a good portion of these issues in Swan Song, with Dean agreeing to Sam’s plan to say yes to the Lucifer, even though this decision went again every fiber of his being?
[quote]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.[/quote]
Nappi815 – didn’t Kripke address a good portion of these issues in Swan Song, with Dean agreeing to Sam’s plan to say yes to the Lucifer, even though this decision went again every fiber of his being?
[quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.[/quote]
Nappi815 – didn’t Kripke address a good portion of these issues in Swan Song, with Dean agreeing to Sam’s plan to say yes to the Lucifer, even though this decision went again every fiber of his being?[/quote]
Supposedly he did. But he didn’t, in fact. Dean had to accept Sam’s plan because there was no other choice. It was either this or the end of the world. Quite extreme. But they never talked about their problems, just about the plan. Sam jumped fellling “less than anybody else” and Dean knew Sam was going to die but was far from accepting it (he never said he wasn’t going to try to bring Sam back).
Sam always knew Dean loved him. The problem was not love, the problem was trust. He doubts Dean trusts him. This was never addressed or resolved in Swan Song. And Dean knows, and always knew Sam trusts him (Point of no Return is quite clear on that), but he doubts Sam loves him as much as, or the way he wishes to be loved. That, also, was never addressed by Kripke, or Gamble.
[quote][quote]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.[/quote]
Nappi815 – didn’t Kripke address a good portion of these issues in Swan Song, with Dean agreeing to Sam’s plan to say yes to the Lucifer, even though this decision went again every fiber of his being?[/quote]
Supposedly he did. But he didn’t, in fact. Dean had to accept Sam’s plan because there was no other choice. It was either this or the end of the world. Quite extreme. But they never talked about their problems, just about the plan. Sam jumped fellling “less than anybody else” and Dean knew Sam was going to die but was far from accepting it (he never said he wasn’t going to try to bring Sam back).
Sam always knew Dean loved him. The problem was not love, the problem was trust. He doubts Dean trusts him. This was never addressed or resolved in Swan Song. And Dean knows, and always knew Sam trusts him (Point of no Return is quite clear on that), but he doubts Sam loves him as much as, or the way he wishes to be loved. That, also, was never addressed by Kripke, or Gamble.
[quote name=”njspnfan”][quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.[/quote]
Nappi815 – didn’t Kripke address a good portion of these issues in Swan Song, with Dean agreeing to Sam’s plan to say yes to the Lucifer, even though this decision went again every fiber of his being?[/quote]
I never thought so. Sam felt he had to put lucifer back because he let him out. Dean knew there was no other way and had no choice to let Sam do what he had to do. For a ny minute dean saw Sam as an overgrown man….that obviously didn’t last. The actual issues though we’re never resolved though. We truly didn’t get SAMs pov til s8 and we still don’t or I should say I don’t get deans constant need to save Sam thru extreme measures. Sam finally asked dean the question as to why…and i do think it’s a very important question that dean needs to consider because it centers at the core of the problem .
there’s a lot of bruhaha because sam doubts what dean said at the church. the way i understood that scene, for sam, his key issue, the reason he always feels like a failure and is repeatingly letting his brother down is because he feels he doesn’t have his brother’s trust. he saw dean trusting in both cas and benny but not him. dean’s latest actions in s8 just solidified his belief in that. when dean told sam it was never like that, that noone came before him, sam felt dean was talking about trust. that he trusted noone before him and he’s always come first. so when dean violates sam’s decision and tricks him and lies to him, sam no longer believes what dean said in the church. that he trusted in him therefore he has faith in him.
i think dean saw the conversation more like sam doubted his brother’s love for him (not trust). dean reassured sam that no one came before him and that’s the truth. so in that conversation at the church, i think the boys were referring to two different things. dean-love, sam-trust. when sam stopped the trials, he thus proves once again his love for his brother. for sam, he proves his unwavering trust in his brother. two sides of the same coin.
sam’s question is important because both sam and dean need to know the answers. there have been so many posts that said dean it’s been engrained into dean’s head that he had to take care of sam. it’s a part of who he is. he can’t stop.
i don’t think sam is unaware of this. which is why i think he asked the question. does dean go to these extremes because for him? because it’s always been his job and he doesn’t want to fail his father? he doesn’t want to fail sam? he doesnt want to fail himself? he doesnt want to be alone?
or does he save sam for sam? because of the actual love he has for his flawed brother who has constantly let his brother down? does dean save sam because we’re family. or does dean save sam because sam is his brother and he loves him.
it’s a fair question that i think dean needs to think on. is it love or responsibility?
[quote][quote]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.
i don’t think that ‘s what show is doing at all. carver was around in s3 when the demon deal started. he wrote some of the most brotherly eps of s3. he also wrote some of the eps that had the brothers at odds. he was part of kripke’s writing staff that introduced us to the boys’ issues. carver and kripke left at the same time. s5 ended kripke’s version of his story. but at no time in kripke’s tenure did he ever explore the issues he raised. he’s always swept it all under the rug. gamble didn’t do much in the way of dealing with the issues either. in fact for most people the end of her reign saw sam and dean emotionally disconnected. carver comes in and the boys are exactly how he left them. it’s not been an easy journey, but carver is finally raising the issues between these boys that were raised so long ago.
the boys will never truly understand ea. other unless they communicate. kripke’s reign revolved around the notion of family and these boys love for ea. other. but he also described this family as dysfunctional. we all understand the love. but we really have never explored the cause of the dysfunction. these boys are in their 30’s now and they are all they have. i think it’s high time they become functional brothers. this is where the story is heading. finally. i guess ironically it took an extreme measure to finally get us here. but we’re here, well practically here…it’s going to be so worth it to see these boys finally finally understand the others point of view. their bond will be stronger than ever before because there won’t be any more misperceptions. they will come to really know ea. other for the very first time.[/quote]
Nappi815 – didn’t Kripke address a good portion of these issues in Swan Song, with Dean agreeing to Sam’s plan to say yes to the Lucifer, even though this decision went again every fiber of his being?[/quote]
I never thought so. Sam felt he had to put lucifer back because he let him out. Dean knew there was no other way and had no choice to let Sam do what he had to do. For a ny minute dean saw Sam as an overgrown man….that obviously didn’t last. The actual issues though we’re never resolved though. We truly didn’t get SAMs pov til s8 and we still don’t or I should say I don’t get deans constant need to save Sam thru extreme measures. Sam finally asked dean the question as to why…and i do think it’s a very important question that dean needs to consider because it centers at the core of the problem .
there’s a lot of bruhaha because sam doubts what dean said at the church. the way i understood that scene, for sam, his key issue, the reason he always feels like a failure and is repeatingly letting his brother down is because he feels he doesn’t have his brother’s trust. he saw dean trusting in both cas and benny but not him. dean’s latest actions in s8 just solidified his belief in that. when dean told sam it was never like that, that noone came before him, sam felt dean was talking about trust. that he trusted noone before him and he’s always come first. so when dean violates sam’s decision and tricks him and lies to him, sam no longer believes what dean said in the church. that he trusted in him therefore he has faith in him.
i think dean saw the conversation more like sam doubted his brother’s love for him (not trust). dean reassured sam that no one came before him and that’s the truth. so in that conversation at the church, i think the boys were referring to two different things. dean-love, sam-trust. when sam stopped the trials, he thus proves once again his love for his brother. for sam, he proves his unwavering trust in his brother. two sides of the same coin.
sam’s question is important because both sam and dean need to know the answers. there have been so many posts that said dean it’s been engrained into dean’s head that he had to take care of sam. it’s a part of who he is. he can’t stop.
i don’t think sam is unaware of this. which is why i think he asked the question. does dean go to these extremes because for him? because it’s always been his job and he doesn’t want to fail his father? he doesn’t want to fail sam? he doesnt want to fail himself? he doesnt want to be alone?
or does he save sam for sam? because of the actual love he has for his flawed brother who has constantly let his brother down? does dean save sam because we’re family. or does dean save sam because sam is his brother and he loves him.
it’s a fair question that i think dean needs to think on. is it love or responsibility?
the way i see it sam loves dean where he wouldn’t go against his wishes. sam loves dean enough to let him go.
dean’s love, when it comes to death for sam (that he accepts) only leads to more pain and suffering and death and leads dean once again down that path to self destruction? the way i see it, it’s an unhealthy love.
so by asking the question, sam is making dean really think about why it is he does go to these extremes. regardless of what dean realizes, the end result, i hope, will be that something needs to change.
the boys have to talk. after everything that sam has experienced, his broken trust, was the final straw for sam. i guess because it’s never been sam’s trust that was the issue for him, for sam it’s always been that dean never trusted in him.
i’m glad sam keeps going at dean. i want him to continue. no concessions this time. this time they deal and fix. we’re close…we are so close. 😆
the way i see it sam loves dean where he wouldn’t go against his wishes. sam loves dean enough to let him go.
dean’s love, when it comes to death for sam (that he accepts) only leads to more pain and suffering and death and leads dean once again down that path to self destruction? the way i see it, it’s an unhealthy love.
so by asking the question, sam is making dean really think about why it is he does go to these extremes. regardless of what dean realizes, the end result, i hope, will be that something needs to change.
the boys have to talk. after everything that sam has experienced, his broken trust, was the final straw for sam. i guess because it’s never been sam’s trust that was the issue for him, for sam it’s always been that dean never trusted in him.
i’m glad sam keeps going at dean. i want him to continue. no concessions this time. this time they deal and fix. we’re close…we are so close. 😆
Really enjoyed reading this article!!
It’s a fair and accurate account.
More articles!! 😆
Really enjoyed reading this article!!
It’s a fair and accurate account.
More articles!! 😆
[quote name=”Paisley”]Thank you for this. For me, this is the first opinion piece that truly “gets it” about the situation[/quote]
Hell yeah. Someone finally not bashing Sam.
[quote name=”eilf”]It is funny how our own lives affect how we see what is going on isn’t it [/quote]
Our experiences always shape and color our world, but that’s me paraphrasing Viggo Mortensen from an interview way back about his role as Aragorn–a character not unlike our rather beloved brothers.
The dynamic between the Winchesters had to change. There’s no going back after Sam had to be the one who had to be strong enough to tell his big brother that everything will be okay, and he’d lead Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel. There’s no going back when Sam told his idol no matter what’s happened he believes in Dean and he asked Dean to believe in him then when the time came to begin the final trial Dean still says Sam needed a chaperone among countless other times Sam’s been reminded of his failures. There’s no going back after Dean spent months lying to Sam about how his little brother is still alive. Dean screwed up and now his little universe is shattered. Sure Sam would be hesitant to trust him again.
I get why Dean left Sam after “Road Trip.” It goes back to what he told Ben “just because you love someone does’t mean you should stick around and screw up their life.” Sam was surviving, happy even, when Dean found him post-Purgatory, but chose to rejoin his brother on the road despite being constantly judged. At the same time it seems Dean has been listening since he came back. He’s gone out of his way to “share and care” and now decide to be completely honest. The question is how bad will Sam’s end remarks affect Dean?
He loves his little brother so much that I’m afraid it’ll put him over the edge when he’s already teetering on the brink. All that guilt isn’t just going to go away. It’ll build because that’s what Dean does, but to what who knows? I’m betting the Mark. And yet when it all goes down I’m convinced Sam will take care of Dean like he did when there’s something wrong with Dean’s heart a la “Faith,” “Yellow Fever,” or even “Let It Bleed.” Their bond is the heart of this show. It will be back and better than ever.
[quote]Thank you for this. For me, this is the first opinion piece that truly “gets it” about the situation[/quote]
Hell yeah. Someone finally not bashing Sam.
[quote]It is funny how our own lives affect how we see what is going on isn’t it [/quote]
Our experiences always shape and color our world, but that’s me paraphrasing Viggo Mortensen from an interview way back about his role as Aragorn–a character not unlike our rather beloved brothers.
The dynamic between the Winchesters had to change. There’s no going back after Sam had to be the one who had to be strong enough to tell his big brother that everything will be okay, and he’d lead Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel. There’s no going back when Sam told his idol no matter what’s happened he believes in Dean and he asked Dean to believe in him then when the time came to begin the final trial Dean still says Sam needed a chaperone among countless other times Sam’s been reminded of his failures. There’s no going back after Dean spent months lying to Sam about how his little brother is still alive. Dean screwed up and now his little universe is shattered. Sure Sam would be hesitant to trust him again.
I get why Dean left Sam after “Road Trip.” It goes back to what he told Ben “just because you love someone does’t mean you should stick around and screw up their life.” Sam was surviving, happy even, when Dean found him post-Purgatory, but chose to rejoin his brother on the road despite being constantly judged. At the same time it seems Dean has been listening since he came back. He’s gone out of his way to “share and care” and now decide to be completely honest. The question is how bad will Sam’s end remarks affect Dean?
He loves his little brother so much that I’m afraid it’ll put him over the edge when he’s already teetering on the brink. All that guilt isn’t just going to go away. It’ll build because that’s what Dean does, but to what who knows? I’m betting the Mark. And yet when it all goes down I’m convinced Sam will take care of Dean like he did when there’s something wrong with Dean’s heart a la “Faith,” “Yellow Fever,” or even “Let It Bleed.” Their bond is the heart of this show. It will be back and better than ever.
[quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”nappi815″]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.[/quote]
But they’re so HOT when they’re bad![/quote]
True love how bad they can be.
[quote][quote]i don’t see dean as the bad guy just like i never saw sam as the bad guy.[/quote]
But they’re so HOT when they’re bad![/quote]
True love how bad they can be.
[quote name=”nappi815″][quote name=”Manzanita Crow”][quote name=”eilf”]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
:P[/quote]
listen girls i’ll consider sharing with you both, as soon as i’m finished with him. :lol:[/quote]
now Girls no fighting there is a lot of him to go around.
[quote][quote][quote]I ought to be a Deangirl but… Sam is mine. (However I am willing to share) :P[/quote]
Back off woman. I’m not sharing AND HE’S MINE!
:P[/quote]
listen girls i’ll consider sharing with you both, as soon as i’m finished with him. :lol:[/quote]
now Girls no fighting there is a lot of him to go around.
thank you so much for this as A Sam Girl I been feeling so hurt and in pain over this so thank you for your words so much.
thank you so much for this as A Sam Girl I been feeling so hurt and in pain over this so thank you for your words so much.
Understand Sam’s hurt. Feel Dean’s pain. Self worth of both under examination. Parallel lives that no longer intersect except for the job. So sad for them both at the moment. Partners can be replaced, but not brothers. Sam’s room is so sparse, so bare. Not a bash just an observation. Dean’s room filled with momentos of the hunts and Mom.
Understand Sam’s hurt. Feel Dean’s pain. Self worth of both under examination. Parallel lives that no longer intersect except for the job. So sad for them both at the moment. Partners can be replaced, but not brothers. Sam’s room is so sparse, so bare. Not a bash just an observation. Dean’s room filled with momentos of the hunts and Mom.