Let’s Discuss: Sam and Dean Winchester – Guardians of the Unnatural Order?
Our latest “Let’s Discuss†topic is pushing into some very deep philosophical and metaphysical territory. Nothing like a big brain twister for a Friday! Warning, may cause pain to skull.
This topic kind of hit me after Bobby Singer’s trip to Hell. The delivery of his soul there was not a natural thing. That’s not the first time that’s happened to a character on this show. That’s one of many. Isn’t it fascinating that all these unnatural occurrences are somehow tied to Sam and Dean?
In Bobby’s case, isn’t a coincidence that he was the innocent soul be grabbed and put into Hell like that? Of the millions out there? I know Crowley had a bone to pick with the gruff hunter, but Bobby was in that position in the first place because he ditched his reaper. Why did he ditch his reaper? His concern over not being there to protect Sam and Dean. He thought he could help from beyond. Would he have done that if Sam and Dean weren’t in his life?
This all sort of ties back to something that Tessa the reaper said in “Appointment in Samarra.†When Dean wouldn’t kill that girl, Tessa spelled out her fate. “She’s disrupting the natural order by being alive. You of all people know what that means. Chaos and sadness will follow her for the rest of her life.†Death certainly gave Dean the riot act for him and Sam being an abomination to the natural order, but he needed them to follow the theft of souls. Isn’t that in a sense the story of Sam and Dean? They have to keep order?
Think about it, Sam and Dean exist, and John Winchester lived because Mary made a deal. So Sam and Dean are the beginning of these out of control circumstances of natural order? Universal chaos follows them everywhere, and they are destined to always be in the thick of it? Could it be because the natural order is now so disrupted that there are no basic rules anymore? Has the unnatural has mushroomed to such epic proportions of chaos that Sam and Dean exist because they are ones by pure destiny that must clean up the mess? After all, they started it!
Think about the things that have happened against the natural order on the show. This is merely a small list:
- Sam and Dean were destined to be the vessels for the apocalypse. So, if they hadn’t existed as was intended, there would have been no apocalypse?
- Let’s look at Bobby. In the natural order, if he’s still tied to earth (like he was with the flask), then he becomes a vengeful spirit (which he did). Once that tie to earth is broken (aka burning the flask) his soul is to move on naturally. Is it because of that chaos in the order that now he can grabbed willy nilly by anyone? Was he fair game to anyone?
- They have a close connection with an angel that can’t die because of a resurrection curse. Now, it’s possible the Castiel picked up that curse before he met Sam and Dean, but he’s essentially died a few times since he’s met them and has been resurrected every time. Is it possible Castiel exists as the guardian angel for Sam and Dean as long as they’re alive? That’s why he’s the one so closely connected to him? He was chosen?
- Think about all the people that have been in their lives. They keep dying. Those that are closest though haven’t had their souls move on in natural ways. Besides Bobby, Where did John Winchester float off to when he disappeared in that trail of pixie dust? Where did Mary’s soul go after she took on the poltergeist in “Home?†Can souls seriously cancel each other out? Where are Ellen and Jo? Ash couldn’t find them in Heaven, but the psychic in “The Mentalists†was talking to Ellen. How could that be? Where must she be for that to happen? Heck, even their grandfather died because of a rift in their universe. He time traveled to their time and got killed trying to save them. That wasn’t natural at all.
- The problems have extended to Purgatory. One question was most aptly raised by Castiel in “Blood Brother†after he killed a monster in purgatory. “It does present a curious curl in the metaphysics, doesn’t it? If you murder a monster in monster heaven, where does it go?†Was that curl there before Castiel and Dean found themselves in Purgatory? Weren’t monsters in Purgatory destined to hunt each other for all of eternity? Isn’t it sort of strange that someone created a portal that cast both Dean and Sam out of Purgatory? A natural defense mechanism to their world?
- What happens to demons when they’re killed? Samuel Colt came up with the gun that killed demons (which I always thought was a little weird since demons are already dead) but it wasn’t used that much until The Winchesters got hold of it. Now they have the knife too, not to mention it was Sam only who could kill demons with his mind. Is any other humans besides Winchesters killing demons? Is that affecting the natural order?
- Ditto for angels. Remember how Uriel first told us that only angels can kill other angels? Who was the first human to kill an angel with an angel blade? Dean Winchester as far as we know. Could it be when that happened, the rules changed?
- Since Sam and Dean themselves are a main part of the unnatural order, if everything was set right as intended, do you think they would continue to be or move on to their natural place? Remember, each time they’ve died they’ve been sent back, mostly notably on the command of God in “Dark Side of The Moon.†Will this always happen to them until their work is finished? Will their work ever be finished?
- Is it possible all these souls are burning away and lost forever because of their ties to Sam and Dean? Or, could it be a Lost scenario? They’re all in some of limbo, waiting until it’s Sam and Dean’s time? They welcome the boys with open arms and they all “go home.†(Hee, I really threw a monkey wrench there, didn’t I?)
Bottom line, is “Supernatural,” very likely intentionally, avoiding a very big piece of the puzzle when it comes to the afterlife because it’s all chaos and unpredictability, especially where Sam and Dean are concerned? Is it possible that souls are being lost forever that were always intended to exist just because of the rift in the universe started by the Winchesters? You know, like a rift in space in Star Trek?
I do understand, I’m very likely stretching metaphysics here pretty far, but that’s what Hellatuses are for. Am I stretching too much or can a grand theory be formed from all this? I’m also aware I’m barely scratching the surface here in terms of thought out evidence and examples so I’m up for all sorts of theories and pitches. Let’s dig into some ancient religions, prophecies, supernatural lore, or even off the wall new agey ones, and explore the possibilities.
BTW, this topic is kind of a sideways extension on a theory Bardicvoice presented back in August as a speculation for season 8, doing a rather thorough analysis with some brilliant examples on the possibility that all the wayward souls must go somewhere, possibly to the same place. She speculated this place could be called limbo. The article can be found here, and it might help in formulating a theory for this topic. Call it a piece of our Men of Letters library:
This is a free form discussion, so any and all thoughts are welcome. The above questions and points are just guidelines. Invent your own questions if I don’t have it covered here. Just remember to follow our general rules, especially being nice and showing respect, because we’re all about that.
So, time to shake those cobwebs off your mind and discuss!
Well, remember that Catholic’s believe that Purgatory IS Limbo (albeit not full of monsters-hehe!). I’ve always liked to think of the entire series as one long story. That started with Jessica dying in season 1. When Bobby made that comment about all the possessions that year (that something was starting). That it all was, and is, connected to Sam and Dean. Being the catalyst for the Apocolypse, since they were the vessels. With God watching, and secretly guiding them along the way. He sure keeps them alive!! I liked to think God never interveened with the Apocolypse because (since He knows everything) He KNEW Sam and Dean would stop it *with a little help & resurrection from Him*
Fun article
The Jewish faith does not have Purgatory or Hell per se. Souls go off into the ether to become one with the Uberpower and to repair the world. Each act of charity done on behalf of a departed soul, elevates that soul higher in the chain. So where is Rufus hanging out these days? So are our brothers repairing the world as they go along but here on earth? Does Sam still have demon blood or as he been purified? I forget at this point. It always comes back to blood lines, and birthrights. Just putting it out there. Need to digest the metaphysical implications a bit more.
Alice,
Wow…. heavy duty, but fun stuff for a Friday. Didn’t one of the Fates (the Titanic episode) complain about Sam and Dean disrupting the natural order of things, too?
When reading this, couldn’t help but to think back to a Buffy the Vampire slayer episode; don’t remember all the details but Buffy was in a mental institution and the implication was that her whole supernatural world was imaginary.
How do you DO that? I mean come up with such cool stuff? Your brain must be bigger than everyone else’s.
Can you believe anything the bad guys like Uriel said?
[quote]How do you DO that? I mean come up with such cool stuff? Your brain must be bigger than everyone else’s.
Can you believe anything the bad guys like Uriel said?[/quote]
Exactly… I always figured either Uriel was lying, or telling the truth insofar as angels were the only ones that had angel swords, and angel swords were the only thing that could kill angels, therefore only an angel could kill another angel. Well… that is until the civil war and Castiel’s turn as God, after which just about everyone seems to have an angel sword now.
I thought lots of angel swords were around because a lot of angels got killed and didn’t need them anymore? So a lot of different beings took them.
I’ve always considered what Uriel said to be more of a truism than an unchangeable fact. That it is so unlikely that anything else could kill a Angel and it was all but true that only an angel can kill an angel. But there had to be a possibility that something else could kill an angel from the get go, because otherwise why would they have spent that whole episode trying to figure out who was killing the angels.
[quote]I’ve always considered what Uriel said to be more of a truism than an unchangeable fact. That it is so unlikely that anything else could kill a Angel and it was all but true that only an angel can kill an angel. But there had to be a possibility that something else could kill an angel from the get go, because otherwise why would they have spent that whole episode trying to figure out who was killing the angels.[/quote]
I thought they spent the episode trying to figure out who was killing the angels to throw the suspicion off of Uriel, who was the killer, and to kill angels who did [b]not [/b] want to start the Apocalypse.
No?
They were trying to throw the suspicion off of Uriel in that episode, but even then saying only an angel can kill another angel contradicted canon. Castiel said many angels had died in the assault on Hell to save Dean. To me that said that demons COULD kill angels under the right circumstances.
We know angels hadn’t really been on earth for 2000 years and that their real form could blind most human beings. Rendering a human blind is a pretty effective defense. The only things that would want to attack an angel, at that time IMHO, would be demon, human or another angel. In general monsters don’t seem that interested in angels. Later on the Leviathan would attack Castiel, but that may have been personal, not species based.
I’m guessing that it is hard to kill an angel. An angel sword can do it. Probably a bunch of demons working in concert can do it. An angel may be able to kill another angel without an angel sword. A Leviathan MIGHT be able to do it. But not much else can. Even with the Colt, we don’t know if it couldn’t kill Lucifer because he was Lucifer or if it couldn’t kill angels. Or at least, I can’t remember then trying the Colt on any angel other than Lucifer.
So when Uriel said only an angel can kill another angel he was stating a basic truth, but not a universal one. It’s like telling someone “a little dust won’t kill you” which is generally true, but if the person is asthmatic, suddenly isn’t. Angels are pretty invulnerable, but not totally.
[quote]So when Uriel said only an angel can kill another angel he was stating a basic truth, but not a universal one. It’s like telling someone “a little dust won’t kill you” which is generally true, but if the person is asthmatic, suddenly isn’t. Angels are pretty invulnerable, but not totally.[/quote]
Excellently put especially this part.
well, like the angels and every high supernatural creature had said, all roads lead to the same path. if Sam and Dean didn’t exist these things would still happen only someone else would be destined to clean up the mess and actually they didn’t start the mess it was already in the works before they were born because God had planned it that way. Mary’s deal to have john be brought back to life really set the wheel in motion because he wasn’t suppose to live. Sam and Dean are paying for the deal their mother made to save their dad.
[quote]well, like the angels and every high supernatural creature had said, all roads lead to the same path. if Sam and Dean didn’t exist these things would still happen only someone else would be destined to clean up the mess and actually they didn’t start the mess it was already in the works before they were born because God had planned it that way. Mary’s deal to have john be brought back to life really set the wheel in motion because he wasn’t suppose to live. Sam and Dean are paying for the deal their mother made to save their dad.[/quote]
I always wondered why Mary’s soul didn’t end up in hell… she made a demon deal, didn’t she?
Mary never sold her soul. She sold access to Sam (albeit unknowingly) to save John, but did not sell her soul like John did to save Dean or Dean did to save Sam.
[quote]Mary’s deal to have john be brought back to life really set the wheel in motion because he wasn’t suppose to live[/quote]
Or… the angels were the ones responsible for John’s death. If they hadn’t sent Dean back to 1978(?), Azazel wouldn’t have ‘caught Mary’s scent’ and killed John to make Mary accept the deal. John, Mary, Sam and Dean would have been a happy family oblivious of the supernatural (except for the fact that Mary was a hunter etc.).
Or…. if the boys’ grandfather hadn’t time travelled to the future and died, he would at least be able to make John a wiser man about the supernatural. Would Mary have married John if he was a MoL? She wanted to escape hunting and the supernatural.
The fact is, we STILL don’t know how much, or what part, of their story is destiny, or choices/free will/consequences, or the hand of destiny, or even personal choices, being forced/manipulated by supernatural creatures for their own individual purposes – including God. Does God respect free will and its consequences absolutely (for all his creation, including angels), or does HE intervenes/gives it a hand? At what extent? In what circunstances? And what part of this is or not the natural order? Are Hell and demons part of the natural order? After all, in SPN, those were created by Lucifer, not by God.
Mankind has been tormented by these questions since day 1. It would be extremely ambitious for SPN to present us answers by the end of the show. So far, it has shown us different scenarios, in the most amazing way, IMO, without attempting to give us definetive answers. And I prefer it that way, to be truthful – one answer to such difficult philosophical problems would be lame. I’m very happy with a positive open message about love. 🙂
Didn’t that Cupid say that they had been manipulating couples for(ever) to come up with the perfect couple to make Sam and Dean? And someone (who) said they were a straight line down from Cain and Abel.
I agree with you. These characters have been dying ,time traveling and auctioning off souls since before Sam and Dean were born. I don’t even consider that the non-apocalypse was the start of the disruption as that was never meant to be in the first place. The angels decided it was what they wanted.
It’s like the chicken or the egg. Is the start of the metaphysical disruption when Azazel began his plan, when Dean broke in Hell ,when the boys were born, when Dean made the deal to sell his soul to bring back Sam? It could be anything or nothing. Maybe the natural order was upset at the creation of demonkind by Lucifer , the creation of Lillith, ffor example.
OOh! This is a great topic.
Ale, those were really interesting thoughts. I never considered that Mary probably wouldn’t have wanted to be with John in he was a MOL’s, but would the cupid arrow overridden that too?
I like that we probably won’t completely know everything too. That some of the answers we have to decides for ourselves what to believe and what not to believe-just like real life. One answer WOULD be lame. So well said.
I think I’ll be going with option B (that Sam and Dean are the ones destined to clean things up).
I guess a lot depends on what defines ‘natural order’ and who dictates what natural order is. I mean, okay, Bobby’s soul was delivered to heaven by unnatural means. However, if you take out Crowley and his desire to get his grubby little hands on Bobby (and his lips??) then would the natural order have been that he would have gone to heaven? So technically (or as technical as you can get when discussing this show) it was [i]Crowley[/i] who disrupted the natural order and it was Sam and Dean who put things to rights.
The same applies to John and Mary. Yeah, there was manipulation to ensure that Sam and Dean were born but maybe they were born to ensure that, eventually, they could put things to right? (I kinda like the idea that Sam and Dean were born to sort out the angels and demons.) I mean God has been talking a break for a bit and in his absence, let’s face it, his kids behaved like spoiled brats and essentially wrecked the gaff. So maybe God is tired of all the infighting among his children and he’d decided to send them all to their rooms for a long time out to think about what they’ve done hence, closing the gates to heaven (if that is what the tablet says). He’s also decided to punish his kids sparring buddies (cos he’s God) so he’ll close the gates of hell and give himself a bit of peace and quiet and this is where Sam and Dean come in.
I’m sorry but I’m going to need to give this further thought on Monday (lots of thought, cos I know what I’ve posted is full of holes. I miss my laptop…..), especially in relation to the multiple questions posed. However, one thing in particular struck me; the whole idea that in Purgatory there was this escape hatch. And there are, technically, escape hatches in Heaven and Hell (ie there are ways out). I mean, God made these places so perhaps this is His way of ensuring that, eventually, everything will be put back in it’s natural place?
Azazel almost didn’t succeed this time.,remember? Sam lost that competiton, but because of Dean’s actions he was broguht back. (I too, thought that this was something Azazel had been trying for many decades.)
I’ve been wondering about other hunter’s too. Do the other hunters deal with demons with the same frequency as the Winchesters? Are they well-known or famous in the hunting community? Do other hunters have dealings with the divine or regularly kill gods ,the way the brothers eem to? And does the Supernatural community outside of Heaven and Hell know about the Winchesters? Do they talk about them. The Leviathans were briefly mentioned in another episode, along with Sam’s blood drinking, so I know that the demons talk about them and I wonder how much they gossip. How do other huunters deal with the fallout of decisions that get made by the Winchesters and do they know it’s the brothers fault?
But you are right. I think that despite Sam’s promises, any normal life is out of bounds for them. They can try to leave the lifeand now that they’ve got their own place that would be easier, but I think the Supernatural community at large wouldn’t let them. They would pull them back in somehow. There’s always some entity scheming and manipulating.
My mind is spinning with this topic! The brothers have been told they cannot control their destiny – Michael told Dean that in The Song Remains the Same – that no matter what decisions he makes the story will play out the same. And Lucifer told Dean essentially the same thing in The End. But then you have Death saying that the brothers disrupt the natural order and create chaos all the time in Appointment in Samarra. My initial thought is that they continue to move toward a destiny that has not yet been revealed, and all the death and destruction in their wake is the work of God, the universe, Death, fate, or whatever you want to call it, having to make changes and sacrifices to ensure they keep moving in the right direction to get there.
I think I need to fast and meditate on this some more (kidding – I am not that deep).
Thanks for a great topic!
*growls angrily* I was typing a comment (a good one too I think) but something I inadvertently did led to it all getting erased:-(
And now I don’t want to try and remember everything I was about to post and rewrite it but here was one thought of mine which I will repeat:
I fundamentally don’t believe in the words, ‘disruption of natural order’. In my mind, there is no such thing. Everything/anything that happens IS the natural order whether we like it or not.
Thank you, Alice for this essay and to everyone involved in this site.
[quote]*growls angrily* I was typing a comment (a good one too I think) but something I inadvertently did led to it all getting erased:-(
And now I don’t want to try and remember everything I was about to post and rewrite it but here was one thought of mine which I will repeat:
I fundamentally don’t believe in the words, ‘disruption of natural order’. In my mind, there is no such thing. Everything/anything that happens IS the natural order whether we like it or not.
Thank you, Alice for this essay and to everyone involved in this site.[/quote]
[quote]*growls angrily* I was typing a comment (a good one too I think) but something I inadvertently did led to it all getting erased:-(
And now I don’t want to try and remember everything I was about to post and rewrite it but here was one thought of mine which I will repeat:
I fundamentally don’t believe in the words, ‘disruption of natural order’. In my mind, there is no such thing. Everything/anything that happens IS the natural order whether we like it or not.
Thank you, Alice for this essay and to everyone involved in this site.[/quote]
[quote]*growls angrily* I was typing a comment (a good one too I think) but something I inadvertently did led to it all getting erased:-(
And now I don’t want to try and remember everything I was about to post and rewrite it but here was one thought of mine which I will repeat:
I fundamentally don’t believe in the words, ‘disruption of natural order’. In my mind, there is no such thing. Everything/anything that happens IS the natural order whether we like it or not.
Thank you, Alice for this essay and to everyone involved in this site.[/quote]
[quote]*growls angrily* I was typing a comment (a good one too I think) but something I inadvertently did led to it all getting erased:-(
And now I don’t want to try and remember everything I was about to post and rewrite it but here was one thought of mine which I will repeat:
I fundamentally don’t believe in the words, ‘disruption of natural order’. In my mind, there is no such thing. Everything/anything that happens IS the natural order whether we like it or not.
Thank you, Alice for this essay and to everyone involved in this site.[/quote]
[quote]*growls angrily* I was typing a comment (a good one too I think) but something I inadvertently did led to it all getting erased:-(
And now I don’t want to try and remember everything I was about to post and rewrite it but here was one thought of mine which I will repeat:
I fundamentally don’t believe in the words, ‘disruption of natural order’. In my mind, there is no such thing. Everything/anything that happens IS the natural order whether we like it or not.
Thank you, Alice for this essay and to everyone involved in this site.[/quote]
I agree with Tim that in order to talk about the Natural Order we first have to define the term. But i will put out Carvers favorite word this seasonb. Perception.
we have to figure out where each showrunner stands on Natural order. What their perception is and does it conflict with or link with the other two showunners ‘Perception.”
Ultimately though as least regarding this show I agree with Mer. There is no disruption if the natural order. AEverything that has happened has happened because it IS the natural order.
Do you mean to say rather that the Winchesters are not dirupting the natural order so much as putting things back in order after it’s disruption by the Angels and Demons?
I can grok that theory.
UM…..what the heck? lol Either something really hinky happened with my last post or the UNiverse really wanted Mer’s point to be out there!!!
Ha! That’s funny because I had a similar thought when all my other stuff got erased…I thought ‘divine intervention’!!
Or its Demon and/or Angel tampering. 🙂
You all are too funny!
In the words of Austin Powers…..”and now I’ve gone cross-eyed”!
I think its best not to try and understand the motivations of God in the SPN universe. He just wants the Impala after all 🙂
I am really glad 4 this topic as it correlates w/ a storyline ive been dreaming about. Since Dean & Sam have “thrown” off the natural order of things wldnt it saffice to say that anyone associated w/ them wld also hve some schematical variances? Meaning that until order is restored (if it ever is) everyone left in limbo will stay that way. Almost as if a time stamp gets imprinted the instant anyones path connects with them. Its truely a life altering experience 4 sure. Noone is ever the same hunter/demon/angel whatever once meeting the bros. Teaming up w/ them is suicidal at best so it does leave one speculating where are they?? But I have a different theory of not where but WHEN? I think the moment they die until all is right w/ the world (order has been restored) they continue 2 live in “eutopia”.
The question is… where was the natural order disturbed?
Was it, when the angels forced Mary and John together, even though they actually didn´t really fit as a couple?
Or was it, when Henry vanished?
Or when Mary made that deal to get John back?
Or when John sacrificed himself for Dean?
Or Dean Sacrificed himself for Sam?
Or… yeah *g*
And how far back do you need to go, to restore the natural order?
Lets say…. uhm… well, lets go back to Mary and the first demon deal.
No John, no Dean and Sam.
But Mary would be alive. So.
So, you would need to remove everyone who has been saved by John, Dean and Sam Winchester, Minus of course, all the people that would have died in connection with anything apocalyptical, because they never would have been in these situations, if not for the existence of Sam and Dean.
Since you can´t bring back everybody who died because of the WInchesters, well… there is no bringing back the natural order.
Which either means, the unnatural order is the natural order, or else, the world would self implode if only ONCE someone disturbed it (ripple effects) or…
If we imagine the world order hinging on some knd of pendulum, that is fine, as long as it doesn´t swing sideways too much, and imagine the chaotic factors that disturb the order as those determining how far that pendulum swings, it should be fine, if Sam and Dean are removed… and everything that hinges on them.
So, if you remove Angels and Demons and Castiel and Crowley and Sam and Dean… all should be well.
Or not.
I got a headache now…