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  1. eilf
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  3. Monday, 25 May 2015
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So, like, the Mark of Cain. Right?

"Death: Before there was light, before there was God and the archangels there wasn't nothing, there was the Darkness. A horribly destructive amoral force that was beaten back by God and his archangels in a terrible war. God locked the Darkness away where it could do no harm, and he created a Mark that would serve as both lock and key, which he entrusted to his most valued lieutenant -- Lucifer. But the Mark began to assert its own will, revealed itself as a curse and began to corrupt. Lucifer became jealous of man, God banished Lucifer to Hell, Lucifer passed the Mark to Cain, who passed the Mark to you -- the proverbial finger in the dyke." - Superwiki

It seems like there might be a few issues here plotwise. Maybe we can discuss all the potential issues and come up with solutions for them, and if we can make the entire thing hang together we can collect them and send them to the SPN writers as a mini-Bible (no pun intended).
Questions include (I have also rounded up some of these from various discussions on the main site):

Why does the mark need to be both a lock and a key? Seems somewhat self defeating that. (also a finger in a dike is neither a lock nor a key ... but anyway ...)(also can we spell it 'dike' instead please? Since 'dyke' has other meanings whereas 'dams' can be spelled either way).
How comes god is creating curses? What is wrong with him?
Does Death mean that the darkness was seeping through and corrupting Lucifer? What does amoral mean in this context? Why should something amoral cause a curse? Something immoral might. "Amoral" means not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral. having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong.
Does Lucifer still have part of the mark?
If not the does that mean that the damage caused by having the mark is irreparable?
If Lucifer does have the mark does being in the hell box negate the MOC abilities?
In that case where was Death going to put Dean so that the mark could be still active?
Could Cain have given the mark away entirely thus saving himself from having to be killed?
If so then why didn't he do that instead of sharing it?
Why didn't God remove the mark to someone else? Was it safest on Lucifer?
Did Cain not know the story behind the mark?
What was 'The Mark of Cain' called before Cain got it?
Was Dean under the influence of the mark all season? Which bits were Dean and which bits were MOC Dean?
What does the mark actually do to you? (apart from making you unable to say the words 'I'm sorry' unless you are talking to your car)
Is becoming a demon always going to happen when someone with the mark dies?
Are demons formed from angels the same type of creature as demons formed from humans? Can other types of beings become demons?
Was the first blade really necessary to the action of the mark?
What was the blade's part in all this?
Where did Cas hide the blade?
Didn't Dean ask Cas to kill him because Sam wouldn't? (I feel like he did but I can't find the episode) If Cas's job was to kill Dean if the mark took over why has his failure to do that not been mentioned? Isn't this not 'stopping thinking about yourself for one damn minute' too? Shouldn't Dean be berating him about this? (I haven't seen 10:21 or 10:22 so it is possible he did)
Didn't that conversation include the idea of sending Dean into space also?
Why is everyone comfortable with the idea that 'the mark wasn't affecting Dean so badly, he is always like that'? This is normal Dean? We like this person?
Why is the show suddenly thinking about Dean and space in the same sentence a lot? Why is Tumblr so fascinated by the subject? Why is space and Dean suddenly a thing?
Was it Dean or the mark or both that tried to kill Sam in 10.03?
Why did Dean only kill/try to kill REALLY BAD PEOPLE (and Sam)? Is it because nowadays trying to kill Sam isn't actually a mark against the good guys (which apparently Cole is one of *eyeroll*) in the show's grand scheme of things? Is it because Sam will never hold it against Dean that Dean had several goes at trying to kill him so we can pretend it didn't happen? If so why does the writing of this show suck this badly all of a sudden?
Was it Dean or the mark who missed Sam with the scythe? Did Dean actually intend to go through with killing Sam (I think he did) or did the mark stop him? If he didn't intend to kill him what was the 'forgive me' for?
Boy howdy did Dean get over nearly killing Sam quickly, like, instantaneously! Does that mean his human instincts are damaged by the mark? Does it mean he never intended to kill him? Is this just the brothers being nonchalant? What? How do you spell nonchalant? At some point does Sam get to give Dean a black eye for some or all of what Sam has been put through in the past season and a half since the MOC was entirely not his fault?
Since scythes are notoriously difficult to handle by amateurs (no offense Jensen :) ) was Jared in actual danger of getting a serious haircut in that scene?
Do we know for a fact that a person with the mark cannot kill themselves with the first blade?
Does the DARKNESS!!! have to be spelled in all caps with 3 exclamation marks?
What is the actual order of events WRT the history of the mark? Darkness. Creation. Angels. Mark. Corruption. Humanity. Abel(?). Cain. 2 marks. more corruption.
If Lucifer had kept the mark then would god have let Michael and Lucifer continue with the Apocalypse? Was that god's idea or the angels?
How does it relate to the killing of Abel?
Is the fact that Rowena's Polish boy is (was) now called 'Seth' at all relevant? Did Seth/Oscar have a speaking part in the show?
Where did the mark go? Is it destroyed?
What does the Darkness(!!!) actually do?
If the world is reduced to chaos will we actually see any practical difference in the story writing next season?
Isn't this a good point? (Ref E): As soon as Sam agreed that Dean was right to wanting him dead didn't that actually show that Sam WOULD stop looking and do what was right of the greater good? So in that moment that Sam accepted his death the entire need for killing him evaporated... so no need to kill him after all because he had just shown that he WOULD listen to "reason" and not go to the ends of the earth to save Dean.
So what does 'worthy to bear the mark' mean with this new information about the mark's history?
Why did it matter that the impala's wheel should get stuck in a pothole? Is there somehow a suggestion that the darkness will only get so far? Were they expecting to out-run the darkness somehow?
Was Dean killing at all the reason the mark was getting worse? If so why could he not have hidden away somewhere and tended bees?
Was killing Cain the reason why Dean tipped over tot he side where he was going to continue to get worse no matter what?
Doesn't that mean that Charlie's death was just an excuse for the rampage that would have happened eventually anyway?
In that case wasn't it absolutely necessary that a cure was found for the mark?
Since they only found one cure wasn't that the right thing to do?
Could Rowena have found a cure another way?
So the use of the book actually DIDN'T have biblical effects? That means Sam was right when he said that nobody could tell him what the consequences would be. The consequences of the book itself were relatively minor, except for the sacrificing of a person - Seth/Oscar - which is on Castiel's hands if any of the good guys has to be blamed for it.
How come Rowena could escape? Was it because Sam agreed to her conditions?
Will THE DARKNESS!!! turn out to be a small localised amount of terrorism by a big hair band and the ACTUAL big bad next season (ie for 3-4 episodes) be Rowena?
Why would Death stand within scythe's reach of Dean?
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eilf
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Here is a possible solution to the Darkness problem:

If we assumed that all the angels are linked, then couldn't the mark have worked it's way into all of them - making them the amoral (at best) creatures they are.
Perhaps use of the heaven tablet could lock up all the angels in one place (heaven - locked gates and all), with enough mark residue among them to control the DARKNESS!!!!
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Was Dean killing at all the reason the mark was getting worse? If so why could he not have hidden away somewhere and tended bees?


Well, THAT'S an easy one- because of the bee colony collapse of course. Not enough bees to go around!

Also, Dean asked Cas to kill him in that horrible Clair episode (which I'm sure you've blocked out of your mind) where Dean killed Randy and the hooligans. It was in that scene where Dean and Cas had a nice conversation while Sam was off doing nothing with nobody yet again.

Since scythes are notoriously difficult to handle by amateurs


I'm trying to puzzle out why you would KNOW that. Do you live on a commune where they eschew all modern conveniences?

Other than that, I got nothin. (except a really good laugh!)
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eilf
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I live here:

https://reelthinking.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/the_village_004.jpg?w=300&h=240

and I type out all my posts on a manual typewriter.

Like this guy*:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_O-x3sYVPu0/VWPUMvAYp5I/AAAAAAAALDs/EvwoaPYB_tA/s320/October%2B2014%2B002c.jpg

I am not sure why I know this about scythes but I suspect it has something to do with Terry Pratchett I blame him for lots of stuff...

*photo I took at a local farmers market ... he did appear to actually be looking to sell poetry ...
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eilf
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Ok then. A serious take on the darkness. So the darkness is amorality. The removal of morals. At that point the person is free to choose for themselves. They may turn to evil, or they may have a preponderance of evil in them (though I wonder is 'evil' a type of morality?).

When people go to hell it is because their balance is more towards evil - or because they have sold their soul. Those people slowly have their remaining morals removed and they turn to evil. The darkness gets to them through Lucifer - often called Satan - often referred to as the Prince of Darkness (hey, I know that Lucifer means light, and the biblical connection is tenuous, but it is there, and this is Supernatural we are talking about ....) In other words if Lucifer was no longer being a conduit for a slow trickle of 'darkness' which is mostly getting into that place called 'hell' then maybe hell wouldn't exist at all.

The darkness shines out through peoples eyes as blackness - those people have become demons.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQoB9kysOzjH6lLeJnRCJA66WIKcDGdBGBOwcuwspzQMUEAQmue

Dean spent a lot of time in hell and he broke, he let the darkness in. He has held that side of himself at bay ever since.

(Sam has had a similar issue, though it appears that he may be free of it now since the trials - he thought that was what was happening - but who knows?)

When Dean died while carrying the mark he turned into as much of a demon as he had become in his time in hell - not entirely corrupted but pretty bad.

When Sam cured him the demon bit of Dean was removed, leaving just Dean but not able to restore a positive morality.

Dean was amoral. All the killing he did after he recovered would have eventually sent him back down the slope to being a demon again.

Amoral Dean could see the purpose of having himself removed from the playing field but would not feel any empathy for Sam's decisions or suffering as a result. He also would not feel the need to apologise or feel much for trying to kill Sam (I would really like that to be the case, because the idea that our Dean would not have it in him to apologise or in any way feel bad for that action is pretty painful). He did feel the arrogance of feeling he was the only one with the power to make decisions. Basically Dean was as soulless as Sam was previously.

Getting rid of the mark has removed the direct conduit that the darkness had to Dean.

However now the darkness, the amorality, is free and will have the ability to influence everyone. Except possibly people with the demon warding spells and Crowley and Rowena (since they are basically amoral anyway).

Here's the thing though. Dean still has a demon repelling tattoo. I believe we have seen it?

We have not seen that Sam had his tattoo replaced .... (and Castiel should be off the side of good for a while too, it would liven things up enormously..).
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Jen
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I wondered about Sam's tatoo as well does this mean he may be affected by the coming darkness ??
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Jen
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When and why have we decided to start pulling a story apart, when you start watching Supernatural = fall in love with the characters and the story line Thats when
This is my first & only fandom so I don't speak from experience, but arn,t we suppose to watch the show for entertainment value. Not when it comes to SPN
I on another thread have pointed out similar discrepancies with this mark story line. Its as though one writer picked it up said To Hard - moved it on and so on. it came to a end to quickly and to easily, no real completion in the story, I can still remember SPN saying it will be carried over to S11 weather thats in the form of The Darkness!!! or with Dean.

I was interested in other peoples reaction to the final episode and found quiet a few videos on utube, Yeah tapeing yourself watching a final a little out there but one thing was common throughout The Dean & Sam fight scene - the darkness also Death's words. Nobody could understand ?? They all quetioned the validity of what was happen and they got really confused. Words like What the ,,,,,,,,,,. that doesn't make sense. why did that happen Whats the darkness !!! and how is that going to work.
So I feel the writers better have one hell of a good holiday and come back with a fresh new attitude to their writing or S11 is going to be a mess
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SPNForever
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Here are my gripes. If The Darkness predates GOD and the Archangels and was the "first" evil which was locked away by the MoC - how would anyone know to write a spelll to remove it? Carver has a way of setting up season finales and getting fans excited and then totally dropping to ball and allowing Ross-Leming, Buckner, Klein, Charmeleo, Snyder to write a bunch of crap fillers and we wait for our mytharc that just seems to have evaporated. The Darkness is so abstract it could manifest in countless ways but it better be damned scary. Carver turned Dean into a demon and that story ran out of gas in record time. Now he has bitten off "The Darkness" can he and the anemic writing room bring it to life in a way that will pull fans back in and will he actually have a plan for Season 11 that doesn't feel completely random like Season 10? The ending was cool with the special effects but the Impala getting stuck in a pothole and the black smoke just kind of swallows it was a pretty dull last few seconds. Wouldn't it have been better if Death (who I believe was part of the Darkness before GOD and the archangels put it away - I believe GOD gave Death purpose and removed the Darkness from him) walked out of the black smoke or some image was seen emerging from the black smoke but the pothole - really? Super wimp out.

I assume since it took GOD and the archangel to put away the darkness they are setting us up for the series finales which I predict will be Season 12. GOD would have to come back, spring Lucifer from the cage - just go full apocalypse that never happened. I also assume heaven and hell will have to work together to do something about this new predicament because this seems a little beyond the Winchesters guns and salt. They are going to need some divine assistance.
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E
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Does the DARKNESS!!! have to be spelled in all caps with 3 exclamation marks?


No, eilf it's all caps including the 'THE' and FOUR exclamation points.... like so

THE DARKNESS!!!!

E
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E
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Does the DARKNESS!!! have to be spelled in all caps with 3 exclamation marks?


No, eilf it's all caps including the 'THE' and FOUR exclamation points.... like so

THE DARKNESS!!!!

E
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E
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Tessa Marlene who writes The Gripe Review over on Spoiler TV made a very interesting observation about the season 10 finale; that it was basically just the season 8 finale rewritten with Sam and Dean in opposite roles. That's not too far off IMO.

My question. If THE DARKNESS!!!! existed before God then where did God come from and why did he feel that it was necessary to take on THE DARKNESS!!!! and remove it? Why was God right and THE DARKNESS!!!! wrong?
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I've been thinking about it and it no longer bothers me that THE DARKNESS!!!! (is that good E ?) seemingly came out of Carver's butt at the last minute. If it was the first evil, or amoral force, that was locked up by God and the archangels long before the dawn of man, why would any human know about it or even hypothesize about it? Should Carver have included a scene in which the brothers are sitting around the table eating dinner (Sam has a salad and Dean has a big ol' burger) and Sam says, apropos of nothing: "say Dean, you think the Leviathan really WERE the first evil creatures?" Dean looks at him, shakes his head and says "Sam, if that's the kind of shit you think about in your spare time it's no wonder you haven't gotten laid in several seasons, er, years." (and since he's talking with his mouth full a tiny bit of ketchup trickles down his chin). My point is that while the whole story spouted by Death, and indeed the entire MOC story, has some rather gaping holes in it, like Cheryl I will wait til next year in the fervent hope that Carver and Co. have a shovel big enough to fill those potholes and then can repave with some beautiful shiny blacktop. I'm still so jazzed by the finale (crap, I can't believe I just typed that!) that I am really looking forward to next season. My transition into a happy viewer is almost complete, but is on hold pending Ep. 11x1. Nobody can burst my bubble, you hear me? NOBODY! (I imagined myself saying that in a Jimmy Cagney-like snarl).
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novi
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I was just about to suggest the same abbreviation! This, or THE DARKNESSS!!!!!
My take on TD is that the power that existed before God must have something to do with primordial forces of the world, in some myths known as chaos which is opposite to the order. Anarchy vs. Law, (material) Dark vs. (spiritual) Light. What if TD is just inert matter before God inspired it? Do you remember French Mistake in which the boys found themselves in a world where there was neither heaven nor hell, and people didn't have souls. Maybe that was the world where TD had won the battle and destroyed - horrible to think - all Supernatural. The Show tends to consider all supernatural forces as hostile towards humanity, so maybe TD is not such a bad thing after all. Only, threatening and bloody and murderous, but Supernatural gives people hope. And afterlife (of sorts).
By the way, I'm absolutely buyng this idea about black eyes of demons showing their belonging to Lucifer and succeeding some part of his curse.
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Russ
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SPNForever wrote:

Here are my gripes. If The Darkness predates GOD and the Archangels and was the "first" evil which was locked away by the MoC - how would anyone know to write a spelll to remove it?



One theory I heard (I think it was on the SPN Crossroads podcast), was that the Nun that locked herself away and wrote the Book of the Damned because of a "vision of darkness", was actually communicating with Lucifer. The Mark of Cain was, in some way or another, a back-door key to the cage to let him out.

Sounds better than what we ended up getting.
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eilf
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http://padresteve.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/phil.gif?w=500&h=153

Hey E, We could call THE DARKNESS!!!! 'Phil'


(I have to say, in fairness, that in reality I don't really have a huge problem with this darkness thingy, it is just a McGuffin placeholder while they decide what they are actually going to do next season.)

Here is how they solve it in less time than it takes Chuck to pull a molar out of his hair and take a shower.

1) Darkness only takes effect when it rolls over people. (this is how Rowena was able to cast her spell on Crowley and Castiel after the darkness was released).
2) Darkness strengthens the power of demons and reduces witches magic
3) Crowley escapes before Castiel can kill him (In true TV style when we get back in episode 1 Castiel will be further away than he appeared in the last bit of 10.23) since he is a demon and the darkness makes him stronger
4) Castiel breaks free of the witches spell since the spell is weakened and so he doesn't die.
5) Crowley is SERIOUSLY pissed and goes on a demon rampage.
6 Rowena is cowed and goes into hiding.
7) The darkness rolls into a ... sometihngorother ... erm .... the grand canyon .... yeah that will do ... and hangs out there being all broody (and not exhausting the special-effects budget).
All goes quiet. The darkness starts to turn people into zombies....but mostly just in Arizona to start with.

Season 11 is about the guys searching (initially) for the mark so that they can capture the darkness and send it back where it came from. However it turns out that Rowena (who calls them early on looking to help because she can't do magic with her nice new book) does actually have some spell up her sleeve that can make the darkness go back where it came from.

I guess there will be some early season separation for the guys. It would be nice if all three of them could head off and find some new cannon fodd... I mean friends, yeah friends. It would be nice if some of the new people were a) female, b) not love interests c) kickass, d) old enough to drink.

I would like some soul searching by all concerned. Dean is not allowed kill any more lamps. Sam is not allowed to get a tattoo unless we can all watch. Castiel is not allowed ever again to be philosophical about sandwiches.

The guys VERY carefully (from behind a large rock) summon Death to apologize for zapping him to Oz and feed him a meal of pulled pork from this great little place in Louisiana where the chef sold his soul for the worlds best pulled pork recipe. Death is only sort of appeased. But he doesn't smite them either because he wants them to fix the problem.

Episode 7 is set in a launderette.
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Jen
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Jen wrote:

I wondered about Sam's tatoo as well does this mean he may be affected by the coming darkness ??


So Sorry THE DARKNESS !!! LOL
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Jen
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How do we know that Witchypoo did'nt insert another spell inside the spell to free Dean. Witchypoo told Fergis that he has never seen REAL magic. Could she be in control of TD !!! We know little about her she has been around for 300yrs.

Why Oh Why didn,t Cas know about the darkness - he was there when the first little fishy walked the earth, didn't he pay attention at bible class ??

And as for Death really can you kill death ?? - watch Ep23 and re - watching it there appeared to be a gap or like a missing piece in the scene with Sam first entering and seeing Dean with Death to me it feels like a hicup between the scenes.

I really do hope they can pull something out of TD !!! LOL with this one -- Whens October OHHHH yeah 5 mths away bugger. Lets just keep playing with it we all may write a real good story while were waiting Put together a bit of Nightsky a bit of Eilf a bit of Russ and a bit of Samanddean and I will throw some in and PRESTO a great episode LOL
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Jen
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TD !!!
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eilf
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Observe, that at first there was nothing desirable to be seen, for the world was without form, and void; it was confusion, and emptiness. In like manner the work of grace in the soul is a new creation: and in a graceless soul, one that is not born again, there is disorder, confusion, and every evil work: it is empty of all good, for it is without God; it is dark, it is darkness itself: this is our condition by nature, till Almighty grace works a change in us.


Thanks for that samandean! Wow, You know, being a Catholic as I am, we don't go much in for Bible reading, though I have read it, but I didn't realise how much of what I read had stuck - because that is really what I meant but put way more poetically :D
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I know what you mean. I went to 8 years of Catholic grammar school and I don't think we cracked the bible once, at least not the Old Testament. My knowledge of the Bible comes almost solely from the readings at church- and from SPN of course!
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eilf
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Speaking of TD!! looking out of Dean's eyes ....this is totally freaky: http://33.media.tumblr.com/05be059ff0c3b7d66992fe883dc88f5d/tumblr_msihd3ZdZn1s6hhalo1_500.gif
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