I always hate this part of the season.  Its sweeps, so TPTB for “Supernatural” go for the stories they think fans will love, even though it’s very obvious that in the last four weeks there has been little to no movement on the season mytharc.  This is where my challenges as a reviewer become tenfold, especially for a show I’ve been analyzing since season three.  I have to fight an extreme case of viewer apathy, and this show isn’t making it easy.  Season nine especially has been killing me so far. 

From a pure technical standpoint, there was nothing wrong with “Bad Boys.”  The script construction was solid, the pacing was good, the dialogue didn’t suck, the direction and cinematography was top notch, and naturally the acting was right on.  So, why am I not giving you a review today of pure gushing?  Simple.  For this show, all of this was nothing new. 

Lack of movement in the main story is a very quick way for me to lose interest, or find adjectives and descriptions for episodes other than pulling out the standards of “compelling,” “interesting character study,” or “mildly entertaining.”  Come on, truth be told, these four weeks have been very flat.  Not bad mind you, I think the writing and consistency has definitely stepped up, but I’m not exactly jumping out of my chair either.  It’s up to every individual fan to decide for themselves if that’s good or bad, but for me, I’m underwhelmed. 

I’ve been spending a lot of time writing this season over at our sister site, TV For The Rest of Us.  I’m doing that because this season, there have been some very exciting shows and show seasons introduced into our TV landscape and we’re looking to expand.  Right now I’m having a blast over picking apart shows like “Sleepy Hollow,” “The Originals,” “Person of Interest,” and even a very much improved “Arrow” season two.  These shows are full into their season stories, kicking our asses every week with plot twists and enthralling storytelling while still managing to pull off some great character development.  That’s why it really hurts me to look at my favorite show and see none of that. 

I know, “Supernatural” has an extreme disadvantage because it’s a mature show.  Breaking stories in the ninth season of any show is tough.  Coming up with storylines for 23 episodes becomes a near impossible task.  Opportunities for character exploration are limited, especially when going for the “flashback” type stories.  At this point so much has been revealed that any flashback is going to risk accusations of retconning.  The question becomes, “Why go there?”  Because TPTB felt it was a story worth exploring.  Either that or they just needed something to get by for another week.  Part of me is leaning toward the latter. 

To be honest, I think the “Bad Boys” flashback fit better than the sudden family information that John grew up without a father like we got in “As Time Goes By,” even if writer Adam Glass got Dean and Sam’s age woefully wrong.  Dean should have been 13 or 14 in this flashback, not 16.  We’ll gloss all that over though, and look at the merits of the premise.  Did those two months in the boy’s home drastically change Dean?  Did it set him on the path of the straight and narrow?  Why in the world would John leave him there for two months? 

In defining this story, I’ve got to look at the forest from the trees.  The overall premise is that no matter what, no matter how good things are for Dean, he puts Sam first at sacrifice for his own happiness.  Great, got it.  Saw it, bought the DVD nine times, I even bought the t-shirt and coffee mugs.  Was this theme well presented in “Bad Boys?”  Absolutely.  And I would be marveling over what a great job Adam Glass did with this emotional script - if I hadn’t seen this before.  I have though, constantly.  I’ve read plenty of good fan fic that explores the “weechesters” universe too.  My question in episode seven of this season is, what in the world does any of this have to do with the angels falling?

And there’s the problem.  It’s my own version of “short attention span theater.”  I’m looking for something I haven’t seen before.  Sure, I haven’t seen Dean in a boy’s home before, but sorry, and perhaps it’s because I’ve been too spoiled by past storylines, I need more.  I love having Jared and Jensen on my screen every week, but the old adage that they could be reciting the phone book and I’d watch doesn’t cut it if I’ve seen them recite the phone book numerous times before.  That’s the way it feels with flashback episodes that reinforce the same family dynamic we get every week. 

So, I could nitpick and overanalyze.  I could give my opinions as to why these episodes seem to always make John look like a horrible father, I could point out flaws in previous mythology like how Sam and Dean had never heard of a Rugaru until season four, I could marvel over how Jensen once again knocked it out of the park with his incredible acting, but honestly, I’d be repeating what I say in about 90% of my reviews.  You’ve heard it all before from me, just like you’ve seen this type of episode before. 

Once the brotherly stuff was gone, “Bad Boys” was a by numbers ghost story.  The fact is, “Supernatural” is stalling, passing the time until they can throw the mytharc in our faces just in time to go on midseason break.  Then they’ll come back with a follow up episode and stall some more until episode sixteen or seventeen, when things get interesting just in time to close out the season.  Like I said, we’ve been here before.   

So my dear readers, I do apologize, but I’ll come back and write an episode review next time there is an episode that sparks my attention and I can create something that is worthy of your time.  Until then, there are other writers around here with far less apathy than I that can keep the season going for those of you that are enjoying it.  Then, in a couple more weeks, we can look back at the first half of the season as a whole and figure out what in the world happened…or what didn’t.    



Comments  

cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 12:01
That's funny! When I made the phone book remark on Nate's review what I meant was that even in season 1 we wanted to see the everyday life of Sam and Dean. Even back then I wouldn't have found it dull. But I do agree with you I am getting tired of the filler episodes this season. It is not as bad as S7 but the momentum from the first 2 eps seems to be long gone. I want to see the story get going. I also agree that the shows you mentioned are cracking with story advancement and action. Some of the action we used to get with SPN. And now it looks like next week is another filler. I hope that the big cliffhanger doesn't just come from out of nowhere.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 12:01
That's funny! When I made the phone book remark on Nate's review what I meant was that even in season 1 we wanted to see the everyday life of Sam and Dean. Even back then I wouldn't have found it dull. But I do agree with you I am getting tired of the filler episodes this season. It is not as bad as S7 but the momentum from the first 2 eps seems to be long gone. I want to see the story get going. I also agree that the shows you mentioned are cracking with story advancement and action. Some of the action we used to get with SPN. And now it looks like next week is another filler. I hope that the big cliffhanger doesn't just come from out of nowhere.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-20 12:08
I really wish that TPTB would just bite the bullet and have Matt Cohen play John as their father so we could stop having John be nothing other than "the bad father". I know JDM made a huge imprint on the role, but for whatever reason (he's too expensive, TPTB don't want to ask him back) it's pretty obvious that the show is not going to bring him back. So I vote for just making do with what we have. The cast Brock Kelly as Dean and I have a hard time picturing this kid turning into Brock Kelly.

I have read several places that Adam Glass Tweeted that Dean was, in fact, supposed to be 14 in the episode and when they cast Dylan Everett they changed the age to 16. With 20+ year olds playing 16 years old I don't think DE looked too old to be 14. It would have set better with me.

I understand your feeling that after nine seasons the filler episodes can become lather, rinse, repeat. I hope they give us an episode soon that can really catch you, but I totally understand why you can't do reviews on episodes that don't catch you. I'll see you when they get back to the mytharc again.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-20 12:08
I really wish that TPTB would just bite the bullet and have Matt Cohen play John as their father so we could stop having John be nothing other than "the bad father". I know JDM made a huge imprint on the role, but for whatever reason (he's too expensive, TPTB don't want to ask him back) it's pretty obvious that the show is not going to bring him back. So I vote for just making do with what we have. The cast Brock Kelly as Dean and I have a hard time picturing this kid turning into Brock Kelly.

I have read several places that Adam Glass Tweeted that Dean was, in fact, supposed to be 14 in the episode and when they cast Dylan Everett they changed the age to 16. With 20+ year olds playing 16 years old I don't think DE looked too old to be 14. It would have set better with me.

I understand your feeling that after nine seasons the filler episodes can become lather, rinse, repeat. I hope they give us an episode soon that can really catch you, but I totally understand why you can't do reviews on episodes that don't catch you. I'll see you when they get back to the mytharc again.
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 12:10
Unfortunately, alice, I'm right there with you, and probably why I haven't been commenting as much on the site.

I'm feeling decidedly underwhelmed with season 9. As I was saying to a friend last night, I hated the beginning of season 8, but at least it brought out the passion! (and some great character discussions, rather than shipping wars)

I've referred to the last episode (9.06) as rather boring. This episode, while well done, was even more so. Really nothing new... we know Dean will always pick Sam over everything else. That's been the story since the pilot. No need to spend an hour proving it to us. Again.

Aside from making me question how Dean could ever move from this point of not liking hunting and enjoying 'normal' to the point where he could be lacking in understanding Sam for picking normal (both Stanford and season 8).... there's nothing to work with. This episode was written to pull at our heartstrings with old familiar feelings, rather than show us where we stand now.

The myth arc is SO slowly developing, that Sam is actually starting to look a little stupid for not cluing in that something is going on with Dean. "Everybody's ok with going to the catskills?"... *rolleyes*

And I agree with the age thing. It all works better for a 14 yr old Dean and a 9/10 year old Sam. Once they decided to change Dean to 16, they needed to follow through with aging Sam to a believable 12yr old.

The canon issues may be "minutae", but those minutae ARE what makes the world believable. And these mistakes by the writers are really bothersome. They're making everyone look sloppy, and uninterested. If the plot was moving forward in a satisfactory manner, they'd be easier to overlook.

Last season I was ready to leave because of what they were having Sam do - or rather not do. This season, I'm getting ready to leave because they're not doing enough of anything with either guy!

My wishes for the second half of season 9 - 1) Pay more attention to detail. 2) Move the plot forward rather than emphasizing what we already know, and 3) Have somebody write some Sam interactions that prove he's still Sam. No man is an island.. How long has it been since he's used the puppy dog eyes on a witness? Interacted with someone other than Dean much at all? Other than a few glimpses at the end of season 8, it doesn't feel like we've seen the real Sam since season 7.
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 12:10
Unfortunately, alice, I'm right there with you, and probably why I haven't been commenting as much on the site.

I'm feeling decidedly underwhelmed with season 9. As I was saying to a friend last night, I hated the beginning of season 8, but at least it brought out the passion! (and some great character discussions, rather than shipping wars)

I've referred to the last episode (9.06) as rather boring. This episode, while well done, was even more so. Really nothing new... we know Dean will always pick Sam over everything else. That's been the story since the pilot. No need to spend an hour proving it to us. Again.

Aside from making me question how Dean could ever move from this point of not liking hunting and enjoying 'normal' to the point where he could be lacking in understanding Sam for picking normal (both Stanford and season 8).... there's nothing to work with. This episode was written to pull at our heartstrings with old familiar feelings, rather than show us where we stand now.

The myth arc is SO slowly developing, that Sam is actually starting to look a little stupid for not cluing in that something is going on with Dean. "Everybody's ok with going to the catskills?"... *rolleyes*

And I agree with the age thing. It all works better for a 14 yr old Dean and a 9/10 year old Sam. Once they decided to change Dean to 16, they needed to follow through with aging Sam to a believable 12yr old.

The canon issues may be "minutae", but those minutae ARE what makes the world believable. And these mistakes by the writers are really bothersome. They're making everyone look sloppy, and uninterested. If the plot was moving forward in a satisfactory manner, they'd be easier to overlook.

Last season I was ready to leave because of what they were having Sam do - or rather not do. This season, I'm getting ready to leave because they're not doing enough of anything with either guy!

My wishes for the second half of season 9 - 1) Pay more attention to detail. 2) Move the plot forward rather than emphasizing what we already know, and 3) Have somebody write some Sam interactions that prove he's still Sam. No man is an island.. How long has it been since he's used the puppy dog eyes on a witness? Interacted with someone other than Dean much at all? Other than a few glimpses at the end of season 8, it doesn't feel like we've seen the real Sam since season 7.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 12:17
Your review made me sad. But then I re-watched the episode and I was happy again. Your reviews are always so well written and thought out and I understand your points here - I do. However, to me, it is all about how the show makes me feel.

I do not think every episode needs to be about the myth arc - in fact, I would not like the show so much if it was that way. It is the mix of myth arc, MOTW, and character study/ development that makes this show special. In season 1, John said he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to go to school - because he knew that is what his sons wanted. In season 3, Sam sees his brother's dream of a home with Lisa and Ben. And, in season 5, Sam tells Dean he knows he has always wanted that and secures his promise to go for it after Sam dies. Here - in this episode - I think we see the first time Dean got a taste of that dream. It does not take away from his commitment and love of hunting. And, as in those other seasons, he realized that was not his life. I thought it was beautifully done, set against the MOTW story. And, loved that Sam knows his brother so well and knew exactly what Dean had done.

I said in another post that I would not be at all surprised if John was in the midst of something dangerous (or having his own problems with the law) and needed the kids to be safe while he dealt with it. Dean's little brush with the law was a good opportunity to put him someplace safe where he could not come looking to help his dad and be in harms way or find out what dad did wrong - and John knew Sam would stay at Bobby's. Then, as soon as the danger passed or John got out of his own legal mess, he collected his boys. John loved them and wanted them with him - but he also had that whole need to know thing with them and I could see him lying to both boys about why they were all separated for a couple months.

Since we know the episode was written for Dean to be 14 and Sam 9 going on 10, I see no reason to keep harping on the age thing.

The episode had me from the first scene - during the hour, I was scared, I laughed, I cried, it made me think, and I was fully entertained. I really can't think of anything else I need from an hour of television.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 12:17
Your review made me sad. But then I re-watched the episode and I was happy again. Your reviews are always so well written and thought out and I understand your points here - I do. However, to me, it is all about how the show makes me feel.

I do not think every episode needs to be about the myth arc - in fact, I would not like the show so much if it was that way. It is the mix of myth arc, MOTW, and character study/ development that makes this show special. In season 1, John said he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to go to school - because he knew that is what his sons wanted. In season 3, Sam sees his brother's dream of a home with Lisa and Ben. And, in season 5, Sam tells Dean he knows he has always wanted that and secures his promise to go for it after Sam dies. Here - in this episode - I think we see the first time Dean got a taste of that dream. It does not take away from his commitment and love of hunting. And, as in those other seasons, he realized that was not his life. I thought it was beautifully done, set against the MOTW story. And, loved that Sam knows his brother so well and knew exactly what Dean had done.

I said in another post that I would not be at all surprised if John was in the midst of something dangerous (or having his own problems with the law) and needed the kids to be safe while he dealt with it. Dean's little brush with the law was a good opportunity to put him someplace safe where he could not come looking to help his dad and be in harms way or find out what dad did wrong - and John knew Sam would stay at Bobby's. Then, as soon as the danger passed or John got out of his own legal mess, he collected his boys. John loved them and wanted them with him - but he also had that whole need to know thing with them and I could see him lying to both boys about why they were all separated for a couple months.

Since we know the episode was written for Dean to be 14 and Sam 9 going on 10, I see no reason to keep harping on the age thing.

The episode had me from the first scene - during the hour, I was scared, I laughed, I cried, it made me think, and I was fully entertained. I really can't think of anything else I need from an hour of television.
Martha
# Martha 2013-11-20 12:41
Sorry, but I'm kind of disappointed in your review.
We got to see Dean as a teenager, meeting a girl, and getting his first kiss. He missed the potential for a happy life on the farm (sheeding a tear). We're getting snippets that John Winchester was not the best father. We see Dean accepting he is truly in the life as a Hunter, and that he will take care of Sam no matter what. It was cute to see the name of Kevin P (the director of the episode) on the bed board that Sam was looking at. You seemed bored by the show, so please watch and report if you want on other shows that have yet to have such a dedicated following for 9 years as Supernatural.
Martha
# Martha 2013-11-20 12:41
Sorry, but I'm kind of disappointed in your review.
We got to see Dean as a teenager, meeting a girl, and getting his first kiss. He missed the potential for a happy life on the farm (sheeding a tear). We're getting snippets that John Winchester was not the best father. We see Dean accepting he is truly in the life as a Hunter, and that he will take care of Sam no matter what. It was cute to see the name of Kevin P (the director of the episode) on the bed board that Sam was looking at. You seemed bored by the show, so please watch and report if you want on other shows that have yet to have such a dedicated following for 9 years as Supernatural.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-11-20 12:54
I'm with Grace so far as "your review made me sad." I'm almost as afraid of losing you as I am afraid of losing Supernatural and Sam and Dean. So while your review was beautifully written, and I understood it perfectly, and even agreed with it, I am fearful of losing you. You are like a rock to me. I can't imagine SPN without you.
love2boys
# love2boys 2013-11-20 12:54
I'm with Grace so far as "your review made me sad." I'm almost as afraid of losing you as I am afraid of losing Supernatural and Sam and Dean. So while your review was beautifully written, and I understood it perfectly, and even agreed with it, I am fearful of losing you. You are like a rock to me. I can't imagine SPN without you.
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2013-11-20 12:56
Always enjoy reading all of the reviews here, both those that enjoyed and those that didn't enjoy. They always make me think more about an episode.

That being said, I tend to agree with Grace232 here. I too don't think that everything needs to be about the myth arc and there have been many a stand-a-alone episodes that I have loved through all seasons of SPN.

Bad Boys had everything I have come to love about SPN.

And to be honest, after a show has been on for so long, it's hard not to nitpick, because we are such fans and have seen all episodes so many times. I doubt the writers have seen most episodes more than once...so i forgive them for any minor inconsistencies . It's easy to lose tiny details thorough 9 years of stories. I have no problem with how they write in John now and then and the age thing last night...the end scene with Young Dean crying for Sammy, and then Sam's thank you...it was so perfect and so convincing...no thing else really mattered, to me at least. The fact that an old veteran show like this can still bring out the emotion in it's fans..that says something.
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2013-11-20 12:56
Always enjoy reading all of the reviews here, both those that enjoyed and those that didn't enjoy. They always make me think more about an episode.

That being said, I tend to agree with Grace232 here. I too don't think that everything needs to be about the myth arc and there have been many a stand-a-alone episodes that I have loved through all seasons of SPN.

Bad Boys had everything I have come to love about SPN.

And to be honest, after a show has been on for so long, it's hard not to nitpick, because we are such fans and have seen all episodes so many times. I doubt the writers have seen most episodes more than once...so i forgive them for any minor inconsistencies . It's easy to lose tiny details thorough 9 years of stories. I have no problem with how they write in John now and then and the age thing last night...the end scene with Young Dean crying for Sammy, and then Sam's thank you...it was so perfect and so convincing...no thing else really mattered, to me at least. The fact that an old veteran show like this can still bring out the emotion in it's fans..that says something.
Luciano
# Luciano 2013-11-20 13:08
Alice do us all a favour and quit.
You are meant to be a professional writer and yet you are blind to pure brilliance
Luciano
# Luciano 2013-11-20 13:08
Alice do us all a favour and quit.
You are meant to be a professional writer and yet you are blind to pure brilliance
Jenny
# Jenny 2013-11-20 13:13
While we have seen Dean pick Sam over & over again, I welcomed it again this episode & it was what made the episode (overall) enjoyable to me. The brother feels ALWAYS get me.

I hated all the retconning & questionable character choices, but I appreciated that SPN remembered what SPN was about. And that is two brothers & the relationship between them.

For most of this season, I have felt like Sam & Dean have been playing second fiddle to guest / secondary characters. We have barely gotten ANY character development this season for either brother.

The writers really seem to be making the screen time for characters like Cas & Charlie count. Not so much with the brothers. For Cas'/Steve's episode last week, I felt we learned something about Cas & gained something. Same goes for Crowley. And that is a good thing!

However, it is a problem when Sam & Dean, your lead characters, are not getting much character development & insight that so is essential to the show - the brothers carry the show.

At least last night's episode gave us that.
Jenny
# Jenny 2013-11-20 13:13
While we have seen Dean pick Sam over & over again, I welcomed it again this episode & it was what made the episode (overall) enjoyable to me. The brother feels ALWAYS get me.

I hated all the retconning & questionable character choices, but I appreciated that SPN remembered what SPN was about. And that is two brothers & the relationship between them.

For most of this season, I have felt like Sam & Dean have been playing second fiddle to guest / secondary characters. We have barely gotten ANY character development this season for either brother.

The writers really seem to be making the screen time for characters like Cas & Charlie count. Not so much with the brothers. For Cas'/Steve's episode last week, I felt we learned something about Cas & gained something. Same goes for Crowley. And that is a good thing!

However, it is a problem when Sam & Dean, your lead characters, are not getting much character development & insight that so is essential to the show - the brothers carry the show.

At least last night's episode gave us that.
alice
# alice 2013-11-20 13:19
I do agree with those that think not every week should be a mytharc episode. We all need breaks. But my point here is this is just the latest in a string of episodes that hasn't been pushing that story forward. I would have probably liked this ep more if it aired as episode five as intended.

Oh Luciano, so bold of you to tell the founder and chief admin of this site to quit. If I did that, this site would be no more. Haven't you ever read my stuff? I've never, ever have been a Kool aid drinker and I never will be. Considering it's me and I can take your crap, I'll let the comment stand. But it's your final warning since you've done this multiple times before. If you insult anyone again for having a different opinion than yours, you WILL be banned. I have the power to block your IP and I will do so. I'm appalled you have been coming here as long as you have and still have total disrespect for our rules.
Alice
# Alice 2013-11-20 13:19
I do agree with those that think not every week should be a mytharc episode. We all need breaks. But my point here is this is just the latest in a string of episodes that hasn't been pushing that story forward. I would have probably liked this ep more if it aired as episode five as intended.

Oh Luciano, so bold of you to tell the founder and chief admin of this site to quit. If I did that, this site would be no more. Haven't you ever read my stuff? I've never, ever have been a Kool aid drinker and I never will be. Considering it's me and I can take your crap, I'll let the comment stand. But it's your final warning since you've done this multiple times before. If you insult anyone again for having a different opinion than yours, you WILL be banned. I have the power to block your IP and I will do so. I'm appalled you have been coming here as long as you have and still have total disrespect for our rules.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 13:26
I was about to jump to your defense, Alice. Glad you took care of that. I do not always agree with you, but I respect you, and am eternally grateful for all you have done for the Supernatural family. I will probably disagree with you again, but please know how much we all appreciate you and this site.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 13:26
I was about to jump to your defense, Alice. Glad you took care of that. I do not always agree with you, but I respect you, and am eternally grateful for all you have done for the Supernatural family. I will probably disagree with you again, but please know how much we all appreciate you and this site.
tw1nsm0m
# tw1nsm0m 2013-11-20 13:27
With all due respect, I disagree with you, Alice. However, I DO see where you're coming from and I do understand wanting the story to progress and not feel stagnant. I totally want to see how this season's arc unfolds.

That said, I absolutely adored this episode. I loved the ghost story throwback aspect and I love learning more about Dean. This was an episode where when I looked at the time left, I was dismayed and sad that the episode was almost over.

In terms of John. He's far from perfect and he's made tons of mistakes but I like him. I think he did what he thought was right. Was he sometimes a hardass? For sure! Do I feel having his young sons alone so much fending for themselves a super bad move. Oh yes! Was I mad at him last night when he couldn't just wait a few hours so Dean could go to the dance? You bet! But, I also don't know the details of the hunt they needed to rush off to.

And as far as leaving him there at the boys home for two months, maybe he felt it was needed to teach Dean a lesson. Maybe he thought if the case went before a judge he could use the time at the boys home as a show of taking the crime seriously and pleading for leniency saying Dean had already been punished. And we have no idea how often John checked up on his son in secret.

Anyway, I love your reviews and while I disagree with your disappointment with this episode, I value your opinion and I see where you're coming from.
tw1nsm0m
# tw1nsm0m 2013-11-20 13:27
With all due respect, I disagree with you, Alice. However, I DO see where you're coming from and I do understand wanting the story to progress and not feel stagnant. I totally want to see how this season's arc unfolds.

That said, I absolutely adored this episode. I loved the ghost story throwback aspect and I love learning more about Dean. This was an episode where when I looked at the time left, I was dismayed and sad that the episode was almost over.

In terms of John. He's far from perfect and he's made tons of mistakes but I like him. I think he did what he thought was right. Was he sometimes a hardass? For sure! Do I feel having his young sons alone so much fending for themselves a super bad move. Oh yes! Was I mad at him last night when he couldn't just wait a few hours so Dean could go to the dance? You bet! But, I also don't know the details of the hunt they needed to rush off to.

And as far as leaving him there at the boys home for two months, maybe he felt it was needed to teach Dean a lesson. Maybe he thought if the case went before a judge he could use the time at the boys home as a show of taking the crime seriously and pleading for leniency saying Dean had already been punished. And we have no idea how often John checked up on his son in secret.

Anyway, I love your reviews and while I disagree with your disappointment with this episode, I value your opinion and I see where you're coming from.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-11-20 13:35
The thing is with shows of this age is there is never going to be a happy middle where TPTB manage to cater to all fans. If it follows the myth arc, then fans want MOTW, if an ep follows one J more then the other, fans take issue. If the mytharc isn't directed right, fans cry foul. And Let It Be Said Let The Writers Never Trip Over Canon OMW it is a bloodbath out there, 16 Dean vs 14 Dean, can the fans actually be serious about this! The show is 9 years old. Will the Grand Canyon ever be forgotten!! And This Is Ben Edlund, legend of legends and god of gods. Methinks a little too critical folks.

I haven't watched the ep yet so cannot debate, however, I have finally managed to find other sites where the show bashing is off the planet. I must admit i am LOVING it, come on folks, how about a discussion about favourite characters and great eps, not this endless critique of minute detail when there is so much more we can discuss and have fun over
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-11-20 13:35
The thing is with shows of this age is there is never going to be a happy middle where TPTB manage to cater to all fans. If it follows the myth arc, then fans want MOTW, if an ep follows one J more then the other, fans take issue. If the mytharc isn't directed right, fans cry foul. And Let It Be Said Let The Writers Never Trip Over Canon OMW it is a bloodbath out there, 16 Dean vs 14 Dean, can the fans actually be serious about this! The show is 9 years old. Will the Grand Canyon ever be forgotten!! And This Is Ben Edlund, legend of legends and god of gods. Methinks a little too critical folks.

I haven't watched the ep yet so cannot debate, however, I have finally managed to find other sites where the show bashing is off the planet. I must admit i am LOVING it, come on folks, how about a discussion about favourite characters and great eps, not this endless critique of minute detail when there is so much more we can discuss and have fun over
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-11-20 13:38
ps I have just had the most amazing discussion about a beloved character in season 4 with some poster and believe you me it is heaven when you don't have to hold back because you don't want to offend. Let this site be more than a Sam site once more
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-11-20 13:38
ps I have just had the most amazing discussion about a beloved character in season 4 with some poster and believe you me it is heaven when you don't have to hold back because you don't want to offend. Let this site be more than a Sam site once more
reedmac
# reedmac 2013-11-20 13:43
Quoting Grace232:

I said in another post that I would not be at all surprised if John was in the midst of something dangerous (or having his own problems with the law) and needed the kids to be safe while he dealt with it. Dean's little brush with the law was a good opportunity to put him someplace safe where he could not come looking to help his dad and be in harms way or find out what dad did wrong - and John knew Sam would stay at Bobby's. Then, as soon as the danger passed or John got out of his own legal mess, he collected his boys. John loved them and wanted them with him - but he also had that whole need to know thing with them and I could see him lying to both boys about why they were all separated for a couple months.


I believe this is called extreme Fanwanking?
reedmac
# reedmac 2013-11-20 13:43
Quote:

I said in another post that I would not be at all surprised if John was in the midst of something dangerous (or having his own problems with the law) and needed the kids to be safe while he dealt with it. Dean's little brush with the law was a good opportunity to put him someplace safe where he could not come looking to help his dad and be in harms way or find out what dad did wrong - and John knew Sam would stay at Bobby's. Then, as soon as the danger passed or John got out of his own legal mess, he collected his boys. John loved them and wanted them with him - but he also had that whole need to know thing with them and I could see him lying to both boys about why they were all separated for a couple months.
I believe this is called extreme Fanwanking?
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 13:44
LOL! Kaz1 you are funny! Part of why I am amused is that I know, ruefully, that I am totally guilty of this. Seriously, I cannot seem to stop myself from pointing out inconsistencies - rugaru, Grand Canyon, etc. It is a sickness, really. But - it does not stop me from loving the show - and Bad Boys was one of my favorites this season. I really loved this episode! Okay, I think I need to go watch it for a third time now.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 13:44
LOL! Kaz1 you are funny! Part of why I am amused is that I know, ruefully, that I am totally guilty of this. Seriously, I cannot seem to stop myself from pointing out inconsistencies - rugaru, Grand Canyon, etc. It is a sickness, really. But - it does not stop me from loving the show - and Bad Boys was one of my favorites this season. I really loved this episode! Okay, I think I need to go watch it for a third time now.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 13:49
Hi Alice, I am with you on your interpretation of haven't we been here already, I thought we were all on the same page about this?
Good bits:
Ok well the ghost was excellent and the horror bits were actually scary which was all very well done.

It was great to see Dean having some freedom from his dutiful life and see the real world. And the waitress/girlfr iend was very sweet. I was sorry for him that he had to give up his school dance to go back to his duty. I am going to stick with him being 14 because that works and 16 doesn't.

Sonny was adorable, Dean meets the nicest people doesn't he? And he interacts with them and they don't die!

The bad:

I wish Adam Glass would just give Sam the week off in these episodes. Sam was not necessary at all in that episode. It wasn't like he was seeing any of the flashbacks of Dean, it isn't that he doesn't already know what Dean gave up 'for him' (I will come back to this in a moment) Maybe I need to go back and watch again but this episode was Freaks and Geeks to me (which I didn't realize until AFTER I made the connection was also written by AG) So, as we all are aware, in F&G Sam is sent off screen while Dean converses with people, then Dean comes and tells Sam what is happening - Sam's role in the ep is to be a bad judge of people and need rescuing.
Here Sam is a sort of placeholder beside the next person Dean is going to talk to / rescue / interact with. (as an example at the end Dean is talking to Robin, then he goes to where Sam is standing not talking to Sonny and has a conversation with him, it seemed like a trend throughout the episode to me but I would need to go and look again) The major purpose he had in the episode was to talk to a woman who died anyway and to suggest that they kill Timmy.
So going back to Sam 'learning' what Dean gave up for him. Which appears to have been part of the purpose of the episode to give 'feels' - well it did, but possibly not what the show was looking for. Waaaaayyy back in season 1 in Skin, Sam is tied to a post by a villain of the week with Dean's memories, and this character TELLS Sam the amount of resentment and duty that is wrapped up in Dean's (genuine) love and concern for Sam. It is an awesome scene and takes, like, 2 minutes not 42. And Sam is not surprised, at all, nor is he hurt, he already knows this, he was there in their childhood, he remembers. He knows his REAL brother wouldn't come out and say it, but he knows it is there.

If this episode was supposed to be the lesson that Sam needed to learn about Dean: the line about cars being great because you fix them and they leave and you are no longer responsible for them, for example. First of all he wasn't privy to that conversation and secondly as I said HE KNOWS THIS. It is part of his attempts before the pilot to separate them because DEAN can't and it is part of the love and duty he feels to his brother. After all if you feel that someone has sacrificed their life for you then you will feel the same tie to them even if you didn't ask them to do it.

I suppose we could say that subconsciously Sam went with the assumption that Dean was dead last season because it was the one way that Sam knew guaranteed that Dean was free of his duty to Sam. Free for the first time. (but that is just speculation).

But yeah, there was nothing new here for me either. And the reviewers on other sites are using the line 'stealing food to feed Sam' when 'having to make up the shortfall in the money Dean lost in a poker game' is just as accurate and doesn't passive-aggress ively lay the blame on Sam.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 13:49
Hi Alice, I am with you on your interpretation of haven't we been here already, I thought we were all on the same page about this?
Good bits:
Ok well the ghost was excellent and the horror bits were actually scary which was all very well done.

It was great to see Dean having some freedom from his dutiful life and see the real world. And the waitress/girlfr iend was very sweet. I was sorry for him that he had to give up his school dance to go back to his duty. I am going to stick with him being 14 because that works and 16 doesn't.

Sonny was adorable, Dean meets the nicest people doesn't he? And he interacts with them and they don't die!

The bad:

I wish Adam Glass would just give Sam the week off in these episodes. Sam was not necessary at all in that episode. It wasn't like he was seeing any of the flashbacks of Dean, it isn't that he doesn't already know what Dean gave up 'for him' (I will come back to this in a moment) Maybe I need to go back and watch again but this episode was Freaks and Geeks to me (which I didn't realize until AFTER I made the connection was also written by AG) So, as we all are aware, in F&G Sam is sent off screen while Dean converses with people, then Dean comes and tells Sam what is happening - Sam's role in the ep is to be a bad judge of people and need rescuing.
Here Sam is a sort of placeholder beside the next person Dean is going to talk to / rescue / interact with. (as an example at the end Dean is talking to Robin, then he goes to where Sam is standing not talking to Sonny and has a conversation with him, it seemed like a trend throughout the episode to me but I would need to go and look again) The major purpose he had in the episode was to talk to a woman who died anyway and to suggest that they kill Timmy.
So going back to Sam 'learning' what Dean gave up for him. Which appears to have been part of the purpose of the episode to give 'feels' - well it did, but possibly not what the show was looking for. Waaaaayyy back in season 1 in Skin, Sam is tied to a post by a villain of the week with Dean's memories, and this character TELLS Sam the amount of resentment and duty that is wrapped up in Dean's (genuine) love and concern for Sam. It is an awesome scene and takes, like, 2 minutes not 42. And Sam is not surprised, at all, nor is he hurt, he already knows this, he was there in their childhood, he remembers. He knows his REAL brother wouldn't come out and say it, but he knows it is there.

If this episode was supposed to be the lesson that Sam needed to learn about Dean: the line about cars being great because you fix them and they leave and you are no longer responsible for them, for example. First of all he wasn't privy to that conversation and secondly as I said HE KNOWS THIS. It is part of his attempts before the pilot to separate them because DEAN can't and it is part of the love and duty he feels to his brother. After all if you feel that someone has sacrificed their life for you then you will feel the same tie to them even if you didn't ask them to do it.

I suppose we could say that subconsciously Sam went with the assumption that Dean was dead last season because it was the one way that Sam knew guaranteed that Dean was free of his duty to Sam. Free for the first time. (but that is just speculation).

But yeah, there was nothing new here for me either. And the reviewers on other sites are using the line 'stealing food to feed Sam' when 'having to make up the shortfall in the money Dean lost in a poker game' is just as accurate and doesn't passive-aggress ively lay the blame on Sam.
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 13:56
Hey reedmac. I had to look that word up. Now that I know what it means - sure, why not? I think it fits with everything else we know about John, so I am cool filling in the gaps of what is not shown with a possible reason. Don't expect everyone to agree, but thought I would share my idea with others who may also have felt there was more to the story of why John left him there and Sam with Bobby. Just an idea/possibilit y -don't want to fight about it. (And thanks for teaching me a new term.)
Grace232
# Grace232 2013-11-20 13:56
Hey reedmac. I had to look that word up. Now that I know what it means - sure, why not? I think it fits with everything else we know about John, so I am cool filling in the gaps of what is not shown with a possible reason. Don't expect everyone to agree, but thought I would share my idea with others who may also have felt there was more to the story of why John left him there and Sam with Bobby. Just an idea/possibilit y -don't want to fight about it. (And thanks for teaching me a new term.)
alice
# alice 2013-11-20 14:13
I'm very glad to see those in disagreement and that many out there liked the episode. This is just an ep I didn't want to see at this time. Perhaps when I'm rewatching the season someday I'll put it in the order I think it should have been aired. I can't appreciate it right now.

For you happy fans, I just posted Sofia's review. Hers should be a lot more pleasing. It also proves too, I'm in no frame of mind to be writing SPN reviews right now. It doesn't mean I won't post other stuff. I'm just not seeing a whole lot to get excited about in S9 except the first two eps.
Alice
# Alice 2013-11-20 14:13
I'm very glad to see those in disagreement and that many out there liked the episode. This is just an ep I didn't want to see at this time. Perhaps when I'm rewatching the season someday I'll put it in the order I think it should have been aired. I can't appreciate it right now.

For you happy fans, I just posted Sofia's review. Hers should be a lot more pleasing. It also proves too, I'm in no frame of mind to be writing SPN reviews right now. It doesn't mean I won't post other stuff. I'm just not seeing a whole lot to get excited about in S9 except the first two eps.
kristin
# kristin 2013-11-20 14:31
Alice, I always have to read your review to see how differently/sim ilarly we react to the episodes; I hate it when you don't write one, even when I don't agree. But I totally understand you're stretched thin. So I hope there are lots of reasons for you to keep writing reviews in the coming episodes! :-)

I thought this episode sucked. I bounced between bored and annoyed. Bored for many reasons, but mostly because I yawned through most of the scenes between Sam and Dean. Maybe because Zeke's inside of Sam and that changes everything between them? Then again, this is the first episode I felt that way, so maybe it was really the writing; plus Jensen is doing a bang-up job of showing Dean's discomfort when interacting with Sam, which I usually find fascinating. So, yeah, bored by the brothers, other than Sam's reactions to what he was learning about Dean. Jared went way - way - beyond the script and showed me exactly how much learning all of this meant to Sam, long before he thanked Dean at the end.

And annoyed because - well, so many things. First off, the casting. This show has always been thoughtful in casting the younger versions of its characters, both in looks and in acting style. Dean as a short kid with brown hair and brown eyes? Dean 16 and Sam, like 8? Come on.

I really disliked John's portrayal. I get that he wasn't the best father; he may even have been the worst ever. But he loved his boys. Even to teach Dean a lesson, I don't think he would abandoned him to jail at 16. I think back to the John we got in earlier seasons of the show - he was complex, nuanced, but overall understandable, if not always admirable. I loved 1970's John for his sweet and earnest innocence; I loved 1980s and 2006 John for his dedication to his cause, and of course his final sacrifice so that Dean would live. I really see these kinds of episodes as an unnecessary vilification of John - he wasn't a saint, but the first 4-5 years of this show showed an affection for John and a complexity to his character. Be more creative, Show - you can get the same point across without destroying John. It's called subtlety.

I really think there was an opportunity here that this episode missed by a mile. What if Dean was betrayed by the girl or maybe rejected when he told her what his family business is? Then Dean's mostly serial one-night-stand , male-centric behavior with women would make sense. It would also explain why he'll always choose his family over a woman, or that he thinks he's somehow "unworthy" of anything more (even if he clearly is).

There were a few things that worked. I liked that while Sam got thrown around a lot (is that this season's version of Sam getting tied up?), he never lost consciousness or required Zeke to save him. I also thought the ties between the MOTW and the season arc were okay. The boy needed his mom so bad that he brought her back from death, and then had to let her go, even though it meant he was alone. Dean needs Sam so bad he brought him back from Death. Will Dean now have to let Sam go?

A more subtle moment was Dean's explanation of why he likes fixing cars. Fix them and then move on, just like hunting. And I really enjoyed hearing that throwback soundtrack during the last flashback; that melody is so sad and haunting, and it made me tear up.

Finally, despite the reminder of just how wrong the ages were in the episode, I loved loved loved the image of Sammy in the Impala with the plane, and how Teen Dean reacted (one of his few authentic moments for me) to seeing Sammy again, and how that was all he needed to decide to go with his family. I liked that Dean laughed - being with his family wasn't always about pain and sacrifice. It was always about love. That moment conveyed that without words.

On the lighter side, did Josh Brolin play pornstache man? I laughed at how big that guy looked with Teen Dean and then how hugging Dean made him look small. And speaking of small, didn't Sam look extra tall and awkward (to quote "soulless Sam") this episode? It was like Gulliver's in Lilliput when he went into Dean's old bedroom.
kristin
# kristin 2013-11-20 14:31
Alice, I always have to read your review to see how differently/sim ilarly we react to the episodes; I hate it when you don't write one, even when I don't agree. But I totally understand you're stretched thin. So I hope there are lots of reasons for you to keep writing reviews in the coming episodes! :-)

I thought this episode sucked. I bounced between bored and annoyed. Bored for many reasons, but mostly because I yawned through most of the scenes between Sam and Dean. Maybe because Zeke's inside of Sam and that changes everything between them? Then again, this is the first episode I felt that way, so maybe it was really the writing; plus Jensen is doing a bang-up job of showing Dean's discomfort when interacting with Sam, which I usually find fascinating. So, yeah, bored by the brothers, other than Sam's reactions to what he was learning about Dean. Jared went way - way - beyond the script and showed me exactly how much learning all of this meant to Sam, long before he thanked Dean at the end.

And annoyed because - well, so many things. First off, the casting. This show has always been thoughtful in casting the younger versions of its characters, both in looks and in acting style. Dean as a short kid with brown hair and brown eyes? Dean 16 and Sam, like 8? Come on.

I really disliked John's portrayal. I get that he wasn't the best father; he may even have been the worst ever. But he loved his boys. Even to teach Dean a lesson, I don't think he would abandoned him to jail at 16. I think back to the John we got in earlier seasons of the show - he was complex, nuanced, but overall understandable, if not always admirable. I loved 1970's John for his sweet and earnest innocence; I loved 1980s and 2006 John for his dedication to his cause, and of course his final sacrifice so that Dean would live. I really see these kinds of episodes as an unnecessary vilification of John - he wasn't a saint, but the first 4-5 years of this show showed an affection for John and a complexity to his character. Be more creative, Show - you can get the same point across without destroying John. It's called subtlety.

I really think there was an opportunity here that this episode missed by a mile. What if Dean was betrayed by the girl or maybe rejected when he told her what his family business is? Then Dean's mostly serial one-night-stand , male-centric behavior with women would make sense. It would also explain why he'll always choose his family over a woman, or that he thinks he's somehow "unworthy" of anything more (even if he clearly is).

There were a few things that worked. I liked that while Sam got thrown around a lot (is that this season's version of Sam getting tied up?), he never lost consciousness or required Zeke to save him. I also thought the ties between the MOTW and the season arc were okay. The boy needed his mom so bad that he brought her back from death, and then had to let her go, even though it meant he was alone. Dean needs Sam so bad he brought him back from Death. Will Dean now have to let Sam go?

A more subtle moment was Dean's explanation of why he likes fixing cars. Fix them and then move on, just like hunting. And I really enjoyed hearing that throwback soundtrack during the last flashback; that melody is so sad and haunting, and it made me tear up.

Finally, despite the reminder of just how wrong the ages were in the episode, I loved loved loved the image of Sammy in the Impala with the plane, and how Teen Dean reacted (one of his few authentic moments for me) to seeing Sammy again, and how that was all he needed to decide to go with his family. I liked that Dean laughed - being with his family wasn't always about pain and sacrifice. It was always about love. That moment conveyed that without words.

On the lighter side, did Josh Brolin play pornstache man? I laughed at how big that guy looked with Teen Dean and then how hugging Dean made him look small. And speaking of small, didn't Sam look extra tall and awkward (to quote "soulless Sam") this episode? It was like Gulliver's in Lilliput when he went into Dean's old bedroom.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-20 14:36
Alice, it's a weird thing. I enjoy the shows you mentioned. But, that's the thing, sometimes the constant plot twists and surprises makes me dizzy. I catch myself rolling my eyes and saying to myself, can't I digest first what just happened before jumping into another plot?

Maybe I'm a little old fashioned (although I don't believe I'm that old - I'm 37), but I prefere a story that slowly develops, with a center theme that gives time for people to reflect, show all sides and then gives us the culmination when it's ready. I'm the same with books - I still prefer the classics, like Wuthering Heights than the modern fast paced Da Vinci Code (though it was great fun too).

That is why I still prefer SPN than shows like The Originals. I can never acuse SPN to be this fast like that, since day 01.

I guess I have to accomodate myself better to this fast paced, short attention span world we are living.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-20 14:36
Alice, it's a weird thing. I enjoy the shows you mentioned. But, that's the thing, sometimes the constant plot twists and surprises makes me dizzy. I catch myself rolling my eyes and saying to myself, can't I digest first what just happened before jumping into another plot?

Maybe I'm a little old fashioned (although I don't believe I'm that old - I'm 37), but I prefere a story that slowly develops, with a center theme that gives time for people to reflect, show all sides and then gives us the culmination when it's ready. I'm the same with books - I still prefer the classics, like Wuthering Heights than the modern fast paced Da Vinci Code (though it was great fun too).

That is why I still prefer SPN than shows like The Originals. I can never acuse SPN to be this fast like that, since day 01.

I guess I have to accomodate myself better to this fast paced, short attention span world we are living.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-11-20 14:43
#13,14 Amen kaz1 you are so right.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-11-20 14:43
#13,14 Amen kaz1 you are so right.
Bevie
# Bevie 2013-11-20 15:00
Sorry you didn't like it Alice. I loved it! But then my favourite seasons are 1-3, and yours is 4.

It seemed like we were back in season 1 again (a good thing for me), and loved seeing a flashback of young Dean. Him giving up his girl and his first dance to go with Sam was heart rending. :sad:

Instead of feeling been there, done that, I felt nostalgic and loved being reminded again of why I fell in love with this show and the brothers. The simple ghost story responds with me much more than nasty fallen angels and world shattering mytharcs. My favourite mytharc was finding their father and keeping Dean out of hell. :eek:

I'm sure we'll be deep into another brotherly schism in no time regarding Zeke, so have faith an episode more to your liking will be coming soon. Hellatus!! Yuck! :-?
Bevie
# Bevie 2013-11-20 15:00
Sorry you didn't like it Alice. I loved it! But then my favourite seasons are 1-3, and yours is 4.

It seemed like we were back in season 1 again (a good thing for me), and loved seeing a flashback of young Dean. Him giving up his girl and his first dance to go with Sam was heart rending. :sad:

Instead of feeling been there, done that, I felt nostalgic and loved being reminded again of why I fell in love with this show and the brothers. The simple ghost story responds with me much more than nasty fallen angels and world shattering mytharcs. My favourite mytharc was finding their father and keeping Dean out of hell. :eek:

I'm sure we'll be deep into another brotherly schism in no time regarding Zeke, so have faith an episode more to your liking will be coming soon. Hellatus!! Yuck! :-?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 15:14
kaz1 Do you really think that this site is just a Sam site? Most of the other fan sites I have seen are extreme Dean or Destiel sites but I always thought that this site loved both brothers equally. What makes you think that? I am really curious.
I really hate to bring this up because I am an advocate for not letting small inconsistent detail to take me out of an episode. I need to watch again but did Dean carve a devils trap on his bedpost? If so I do have a problem with that. Devils Trap was the episode that made me sit up and take notice of this fabulous young actor named Jensen Ackles. I couldn't believe I had never heard of him before. His interrogation of Meg and his scenes with John/Azazel were astonishing. And that is when the devils trap was introduced and became almost another character on the show. 16 year old Dean supposedly didn't know about devils traps did he?
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 15:14
kaz1 Do you really think that this site is just a Sam site? Most of the other fan sites I have seen are extreme Dean or Destiel sites but I always thought that this site loved both brothers equally. What makes you think that? I am really curious.
I really hate to bring this up because I am an advocate for not letting small inconsistent detail to take me out of an episode. I need to watch again but did Dean carve a devils trap on his bedpost? If so I do have a problem with that. Devils Trap was the episode that made me sit up and take notice of this fabulous young actor named Jensen Ackles. I couldn't believe I had never heard of him before. His interrogation of Meg and his scenes with John/Azazel were astonishing. And that is when the devils trap was introduced and became almost another character on the show. 16 year old Dean supposedly didn't know about devils traps did he?
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-20 15:22
16 yr old Dean could have known but then again they are firing more loose canon around than at the Battle of Waterloo and what was canon in season 1 can be retconned back .
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-20 15:22
16 yr old Dean could have known but then again they are firing more loose canon around than at the Battle of Waterloo and what was canon in season 1 can be retconned back .
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-11-20 15:39
I didn't see this episode as a reiteration of Dean's willingness to sacrifice for Sam. What I saw was Dean finally, really getting it about his desperate need to keep sam with him even at the expense of his own happiness, Sam's happiness and the safety of the world.
.We, the viewers, have always been able to see this but I think last night it truly hit home for Dean, especially in juxtaposition with the Samekiel Crisis and in light of his speech to the little boy about letting go.

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.

I saw this episode as one of a number of episodes where we see Dean reach an epiphany about himself or something he's done. I think we just witnessed a possible moment of emotional growth and for me that made the episode (which i admit was rather sedate for this show) worthwhile.
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2013-11-20 15:39
I didn't see this episode as a reiteration of Dean's willingness to sacrifice for Sam. What I saw was Dean finally, really getting it about his desperate need to keep sam with him even at the expense of his own happiness, Sam's happiness and the safety of the world.
.We, the viewers, have always been able to see this but I think last night it truly hit home for Dean, especially in juxtaposition with the Samekiel Crisis and in light of his speech to the little boy about letting go.

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.

I saw this episode as one of a number of episodes where we see Dean reach an epiphany about himself or something he's done. I think we just witnessed a possible moment of emotional growth and for me that made the episode (which i admit was rather sedate for this show) worthwhile.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-20 15:50
Quote:
But yeah, there was nothing new here for me either. And the reviewers on other sites are using the line 'stealing food to feed Sam' when 'having to make up the shortfall in the money Dean lost in a poker game' is just as accurate and doesn't passive-aggressively lay the blame on Sam.
Because Dean was apparently going to exist on air itself until John got home if it weren't for Sam's pesky and selfish habit of needing to eat. Dean lost the money to feed BOTH of them, not just Sam.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-20 15:50
Quote:
But yeah, there was nothing new here for me either. And the reviewers on other sites are using the line 'stealing food to feed Sam' when 'having to make up the shortfall in the money Dean lost in a poker game' is just as accurate and doesn't passive-aggressively lay the blame on Sam.
Because Dean was apparently going to exist on air itself until John got home if it weren't for Sam's pesky and selfish habit of needing to eat. Dean lost the money to feed BOTH of them, not just Sam.
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2013-11-20 15:52
Quoting lkeke35:

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.


So true. It really is a phobia. When he cares about someone, he dives in 100% and many times doesn't see (or WANT to see) that bigger picture, beyond what he'll lose. But, it also makes him the person he is. Dedicated beyond belief when it comes to loved ones. I loved the line in this ep about sometimes you have to do what's best for you instead of others...that pretty much sums up the situation he's in right now with Sam. It's painful to watch him deal with some of these situations he gets himself in, but it only makes us love the character that much more.
hlnkid
# hlnkid 2013-11-20 15:52
Quote:

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.
So true. It really is a phobia. When he cares about someone, he dives in 100% and many times doesn't see (or WANT to see) that bigger picture, beyond what he'll lose. But, it also makes him the person he is. Dedicated beyond belief when it comes to loved ones. I loved the line in this ep about sometimes you have to do what's best for you instead of others...that pretty much sums up the situation he's in right now with Sam. It's painful to watch him deal with some of these situations he gets himself in, but it only makes us love the character that much more.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-20 16:18
#26 - IIkeke35 I agree that's what this episode was about. It reminded us once more that Dean has sacrificed everything for Sam even when they were children and now will do anything not too lose him. It helps us understand why he went so far over the line with Ezekiel in advance of the big reveal in the cliffhanger episode I suppose.

My problem so far this season is that the Ezekiel story is not just about Dean. There are 2 sides to this.

We've seen Dean's guilt, and it would have been nice to see Sam worry about the missing time, or having fears of going crazy again, or maybe thinking that he's not human anymore after the trials because he finds blood on himself but no injury. I don't know, something! Sam must be worried at least a little, right? Show us!

In the last episode, we also saw how Dean's childhood and his devotion to Sam have influenced his actions in the season opener. How about reminding us of Sam's history as well and why he has every right to be angry when it all hits the fan? I think viewers have to remember Sam's issues with control, over his life and his body, his feelings of being a freak, and why he would rather die than be possessed again.

Already, I see so many posts explaining Dean's actions as him having no choice,that is was all out of love for his brother, but we also need to see Sam's side in all of this, even as we understand where Dean was coming from.

I feel there's too much focus (and therefore sympathy) given to Dean, who did the bad thing, and not enough given to Sam, the victim.

About the episode, I felt like the characterizatio ns in the flashbacks were wrong. I didn't recognize this Dean, who acted very much like a young version of Sam. And what about Sammy? Where was the sullen, bookish kid we were shown before? I can't believe he would be making airplane noises and be so carefree, especially at 12. Otherwise I enjoyed it for what it was. I like it when the guys are nice to each other and bond. The calm before the storm I guess. I can't say I'm looking forward to the blow-up.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-20 16:18
#26 - IIkeke35 I agree that's what this episode was about. It reminded us once more that Dean has sacrificed everything for Sam even when they were children and now will do anything not too lose him. It helps us understand why he went so far over the line with Ezekiel in advance of the big reveal in the cliffhanger episode I suppose.

My problem so far this season is that the Ezekiel story is not just about Dean. There are 2 sides to this.

We've seen Dean's guilt, and it would have been nice to see Sam worry about the missing time, or having fears of going crazy again, or maybe thinking that he's not human anymore after the trials because he finds blood on himself but no injury. I don't know, something! Sam must be worried at least a little, right? Show us!

In the last episode, we also saw how Dean's childhood and his devotion to Sam have influenced his actions in the season opener. How about reminding us of Sam's history as well and why he has every right to be angry when it all hits the fan? I think viewers have to remember Sam's issues with control, over his life and his body, his feelings of being a freak, and why he would rather die than be possessed again.

Already, I see so many posts explaining Dean's actions as him having no choice,that is was all out of love for his brother, but we also need to see Sam's side in all of this, even as we understand where Dean was coming from.

I feel there's too much focus (and therefore sympathy) given to Dean, who did the bad thing, and not enough given to Sam, the victim.

About the episode, I felt like the characterizatio ns in the flashbacks were wrong. I didn't recognize this Dean, who acted very much like a young version of Sam. And what about Sammy? Where was the sullen, bookish kid we were shown before? I can't believe he would be making airplane noises and be so carefree, especially at 12. Otherwise I enjoyed it for what it was. I like it when the guys are nice to each other and bond. The calm before the storm I guess. I can't say I'm looking forward to the blow-up.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-20 16:21
Alice,
What about last week's "Heaven Can't Wait?" That was IMO a great mythology Season 9 episode, I do agree, the complaint I have this season is it's like sitting in a car with a first time driver. They will floor the gas, then quickly slam on the brakes. We've had 4 mythology eps, and 3 MOTW. I'd rather see the first 4-5 eps deal with the Season's main story, and then thrown on a MOTW here and there, but still reference the main story.
That being said, I really liked "Bad Boys." It is part of the catch-22.....I love seeing a "classic SPN ghost story" in Season 9, but the there was no forward movement in the Angels story. I do like the flashbacks, even though we've seen many before. We may be in the car with the first time driver, but we're getting very solid episodes.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-20 16:21
Alice,
What about last week's "Heaven Can't Wait?" That was IMO a great mythology Season 9 episode, I do agree, the complaint I have this season is it's like sitting in a car with a first time driver. They will floor the gas, then quickly slam on the brakes. We've had 4 mythology eps, and 3 MOTW. I'd rather see the first 4-5 eps deal with the Season's main story, and then thrown on a MOTW here and there, but still reference the main story.
That being said, I really liked "Bad Boys." It is part of the catch-22.....I love seeing a "classic SPN ghost story" in Season 9, but the there was no forward movement in the Angels story. I do like the flashbacks, even though we've seen many before. We may be in the car with the first time driver, but we're getting very solid episodes.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-20 16:27
Quoting hlnkid:
[quote name="lkeke35"]
I loved the line in this ep about sometimes you have to do what's best for you instead of others...


Then why did Dean not take that into account when Sam went to college and wanting normal ? . This episode underlined the double standard in the brothers relationship as well as the same this is what Dean gave up for Sam .
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-20 16:27
Quote:

I loved the line in this ep about sometimes you have to do what's best for you instead of others...
Then why did Dean not take that into account when Sam went to college and wanting normal ? . This episode underlined the double standard in the brothers relationship as well as the same this is what Dean gave up for Sam .
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-20 16:49
Quoting lkeke35:
I didn't see this episode as a reiteration of Dean's willingness to sacrifice for Sam. What I saw was Dean finally, really getting it about his desperate need to keep sam with him even at the expense of his own happiness, Sam's happiness and the safety of the world.
.We, the viewers, have always been able to see this but I think last night it truly hit home for Dean, especially in juxtaposition with the Samekiel Crisis and in light of his speech to the little boy about letting go.

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.

I saw this episode as one of a number of episodes where we see Dean reach an epiphany about himself or something he's done. I think we just witnessed a possible moment of emotional growth and for me that made the episode (which i admit was rather sedate for this show) worthwhile.


Interesting! Let us see where this season leads us!
Last season we've only got it in the last minutes.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-20 16:49
Quote:
I didn't see this episode as a reiteration of Dean's willingness to sacrifice for Sam. What I saw was Dean finally, really getting it about his desperate need to keep sam with him even at the expense of his own happiness, Sam's happiness and the safety of the world.
.We, the viewers, have always been able to see this but I think last night it truly hit home for Dean, especially in juxtaposition with the Samekiel Crisis and in light of his speech to the little boy about letting go.

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.

I saw this episode as one of a number of episodes where we see Dean reach an epiphany about himself or something he's done. I think we just witnessed a possible moment of emotional growth and for me that made the episode (which i admit was rather sedate for this show) worthwhile.
Interesting! Let us see where this season leads us!
Last season we've only got it in the last minutes.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-20 16:54
Quoting lkeke35:
I didn't see this episode as a reiteration of Dean's willingness to sacrifice for Sam. What I saw was Dean finally, really getting it about his desperate need to keep sam with him even at the expense of his own happiness, Sam's happiness and the safety of the world.
.We, the viewers, have always been able to see this but I think last night it truly hit home for Dean, especially in juxtaposition with the Samekiel Crisis and in light of his speech to the little boy about letting go.

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.

I saw this episode as one of a number of episodes where we see Dean reach an epiphany about himself or something he's done. I think we just witnessed a possible moment of emotional growth and for me that made the episode (which i admit was rather sedate for this show) worthwhile.



Very well put!
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-20 16:54
Quote:
I didn't see this episode as a reiteration of Dean's willingness to sacrifice for Sam. What I saw was Dean finally, really getting it about his desperate need to keep sam with him even at the expense of his own happiness, Sam's happiness and the safety of the world.
.We, the viewers, have always been able to see this but I think last night it truly hit home for Dean, especially in juxtaposition with the Samekiel Crisis and in light of his speech to the little boy about letting go.

We've even been in such conversations before and Dean has said as much himsel, but what I thought was that while Dean intellectually understands what he's doing , he's never really , truly "grokked" how this is not just a fear of losing Sam, it's a real phobia. This phobia of loss (his mother, domestic stability, his father, his brother) has caused him to make all manner of deperate and dangerous decisions, cultminating in his current predicament with Zeke now.

I saw this episode as one of a number of episodes where we see Dean reach an epiphany about himself or something he's done. I think we just witnessed a possible moment of emotional growth and for me that made the episode (which i admit was rather sedate for this show) worthwhile.
Very well put!
Brr
# Brr 2013-11-20 17:34
Alice-I sympathize with what you're saying, I do. But the main theme I hear is that "I want to like this, but I don't". I'm a newer fan, and I'm feeling this way off and on this season, too. I do think the quality has been good this year, and I do want to know what's going to happen next. I also really liked this episode. But I get what you're saying, too. It's been nine seasons, and sometimes you just want something fresh.

Think it's viewer fatigue, rather than problems with the show itself?
Brr
# Brr 2013-11-20 17:34
Alice-I sympathize with what you're saying, I do. But the main theme I hear is that "I want to like this, but I don't". I'm a newer fan, and I'm feeling this way off and on this season, too. I do think the quality has been good this year, and I do want to know what's going to happen next. I also really liked this episode. But I get what you're saying, too. It's been nine seasons, and sometimes you just want something fresh.

Think it's viewer fatigue, rather than problems with the show itself?
Beanie
# Beanie 2013-11-20 18:10
Hum….well…I….I… .huh……I don’t know what to say.

In the words of Jackyl (80’s hair band): I stand alone today, don’t ask me why I feel, I just know I feel this way.

I’m bored with childhood flash backs and slap me in the face parallels….I too, enjoy stand-alone episodes, and I know I keep falling back on what was but, darn it, I'm just going to.......RANT!

Nine seasons and many episodes later, I don’t want to be told or shown Dean ‘did or didn’t’, or Sam ‘should have or shouldn’t have’ or ‘neither did’ or ‘why didn’t’. I don’t care.….I don’t want to watch an episode and pick it apart trying to figure out what ‘lesson’ I was supposed to learn. If we’re going to rehash and serve again…….then please, on my plate, spoon me a heaping of:

Phantom Traveler, The Benders, Dead in the Water, Children Shouldn’t Play with Dead Things, Usual Suspects, Night shifter, Folsom Prison Blues.

Don’t show me teen-Dean kissing a girl or how-old-was Sam playing with a plane….. give me Sam breaking out of a cage, the brothers working together while apart; show me a physical fist-fight and a chase and capture and torture. (Benders, anyone?)

I liked this episode, I would have loved it, if instead, of flash backs we had action and suspense…..I know, I know, backstory but I was bored… I kept yawning…..I….I’ m just going to say it…..I find action/drama/su spense shows with an episode centered on kids…. ..a dud.

No…..wait…..I did enjoy the boy in the episode Children are our future…that’s it….that’s all I got.

Oh…no, wait…..off topic……tried to watch Revolution last year……didn’t hold my interest….tried again this year……Miles and Sebastian and their swords; Rachel, you go girl, take out anyone, daddy included who stands in your way; Aaron, sorry dude, but I do like me a torture scene.

Onward......to more angst and conflict and guilt and blame and confession and realization.... .with you know, maybe a punch thrown in.
BeccaB
# BeccaB 2013-11-20 18:19
I liked this episode. Season 9 is 7 for 7 IMHO.

I'm sorry, Alice, you're so apathetic about this season. You sound really miserable. In fact, you sound like Mo Ryan around mid-season 6. We would hate to lose you and your reviews.

As far as the shows you do like -- I don't now -- POI (same show week after week), The Originals (God awful acting), Arrow (letting down the city, give me a break), and Sleepy Hollow (has had it's moments).

Advice, I'm good at giving advice, get yourself a rainy cold day, sit back, relax and binge watch eps 1-7, they really hang together better than you might think.
BeccaB
# BeccaB 2013-11-20 18:19
I liked this episode. Season 9 is 7 for 7 IMHO.

I'm sorry, Alice, you're so apathetic about this season. You sound really miserable. In fact, you sound like Mo Ryan around mid-season 6. We would hate to lose you and your reviews.

As far as the shows you do like -- I don't now -- POI (same show week after week), The Originals (God awful acting), Arrow (letting down the city, give me a break), and Sleepy Hollow (has had it's moments).

Advice, I'm good at giving advice, get yourself a rainy cold day, sit back, relax and binge watch eps 1-7, they really hang together better than you might think.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 18:46
On my first re-watch without commercial interruption I have to say I absolutely loved this episode. It actually fit perfectly with the flow of the season. The devils trap that bothered me before suddenly didn't. DT was the episode where Dean first declared how far he would go for his family, how much he would sacrifice. No matter what cost to Dean he will always choose his family over his own happiness. I know it may seem like been there done that but I also think that there are probably many new viewers (we hope) that don't know the whole back story like the backs of our hands and this episode filled in the blanks while getting the established fans right in the feels. I also think this ties into the Sam/Zeke situation. Dean probably knows how much this is going to cost him when Sam finds out. I think he knows this might change his relationship with Sam forever. But it is a sacrifice he is willing to make. I am going to have to reserve judging these episodes until I can watch them when I am not tired and without commercials.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 18:46
On my first re-watch without commercial interruption I have to say I absolutely loved this episode. It actually fit perfectly with the flow of the season. The devils trap that bothered me before suddenly didn't. DT was the episode where Dean first declared how far he would go for his family, how much he would sacrifice. No matter what cost to Dean he will always choose his family over his own happiness. I know it may seem like been there done that but I also think that there are probably many new viewers (we hope) that don't know the whole back story like the backs of our hands and this episode filled in the blanks while getting the established fans right in the feels. I also think this ties into the Sam/Zeke situation. Dean probably knows how much this is going to cost him when Sam finds out. I think he knows this might change his relationship with Sam forever. But it is a sacrifice he is willing to make. I am going to have to reserve judging these episodes until I can watch them when I am not tired and without commercials.
E
# E 2013-11-20 20:58
Hi Alice,
I really hated this episode; hated it. However it's only the first one of the season that I felt really missed the mark, so there is that. I think you are right though, there needs to be some forward movement and soon. It hasn't bothered me so far, and I've liked all the episodes until this one.

This episode: Ugh. I don't feel like it flowed well at all, it seemed clunky to me with flashbacks shoehorned in at odd moments over weird stuff: an old sofa sparks a flashback?! Geez. The 'love interest' served no purpose other than to make Dean feel bad and the need to be saved. She makes Dean feel bad 20 years later because he ended up not being able to take her to her school dance at the age of 16? Way to hold a grudge. I found the ghost story rather bland (other than the deaths which were quite gruesome), and for some reason didn't really care about cute little Timmy and his ghost mamma. The big reveal and emotional resolution felt a little flat to me. And I am not sure how I was supposed to take Timmy's situation in relationship to Dean's; was there supposed to be a correlation there? A mother who would do anything for her son including killing people and a father who's wantonly cruel to his son for no real reason at all? What was I supposed to take away from that?

Some of my main problem was in the logic of the setup; there is NO WAY Dean would have ended up at a reform school for what he'd done… none. He'd either have ended up back with John, or if John really HAD abandoned him as was insinuated in the ep (which is grossly OOC IMO) then he would have been remanded to CPS and placed in foster care until he was 18. None of this tracks for me. And the John thing doesn't track either, it does not compute for me that John would ever have done such a thing to Dean; he was firm, perhaps even harsh at times, but he was never callus or cavalier about either of his son's wellbeing.

The fact that Sonny (a character I actually liked and felt worked well) could have had TWO suspicious and horrifically violent murders in his house and continued to operate his reform school also defies logic. In any normal scenario Sonny would have been arrested for Ruth's awful, awful death simply for the fact that it was HIS HOUSE. And those kids would have been out of there at the first sign of trouble.

And lastly, Dean. I hate what this episode did to Dean in my eyes. So, we get some big "reveal" that Dean's wanted normal all along, just like Sammy and has secretly never liked hunting ever, and he hates John and has always wanted out. He liked that reform school better than his own life and if it wasn't for Sam, be probably would have stayed there. So, was all of Dean enthusiasm for the hunt, his commitment to his father, his faith in his family and their quest to kill YED at the start of the series all just a lie then? Was all of Dean's tearing down of Sam for wanting to go to Stanford really about Sam's choosing his own life over the life of the family business or was it really just petty jealousy on Dean's part because he never had the guts to try for his own normal the way Sam did? The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

So, not only did I hate how this great big "reveal" about Dean's past has altered the way I see his character and his motivations, but I hated Sam's characterizatio n in this episode as well. As an adult he can barely remember something as traumatic as his beloved brother going missing and being gone for two whole months?! This is the guy who came apart at the seams last season when Dean was missing and presumed dead, right? Sam was so blaze` about the whole thing, it was like Dean's disappearance had no affect on him. Additionally, Sam had just learned that not only had John dumped Dean, but he'd also dumped Sam as well. Shouldn't that have registered with Sam on some level? He's only just discovered that John wasn't off looking for or trying to save Dean, he was off by himself doing God knows what, and he didn't seem to care to spend any of that two months that Dean was away with Sam. And with Sam as a child we get one small shot of Sam casually playing with his toy in the back of the Impala. No excitement to see that Dean's not dead; no interest in greeting the brother he hasn't seen for the past two months… not even a "Dean!" from him to show he cares in any way at all. Why was Dean so eager to return to this ungrateful little brat who shows no interest in his big brother's well being? Everything was just so out of whack in this episode, there was no logic to the story components, no normal reactions from the characters about situations that should have been more important or traumatic. The revelations in the present time should have been more dramatic and felt more significant. For me, this episode was a real clunker and will not be on my re-watch list. :-x
E
# E 2013-11-20 20:58
Hi Alice,
I really hated this episode; hated it. However it's only the first one of the season that I felt really missed the mark, so there is that. I think you are right though, there needs to be some forward movement and soon. It hasn't bothered me so far, and I've liked all the episodes until this one.

This episode: Ugh. I don't feel like it flowed well at all, it seemed clunky to me with flashbacks shoehorned in at odd moments over weird stuff: an old sofa sparks a flashback?! Geez. The 'love interest' served no purpose other than to make Dean feel bad and the need to be saved. She makes Dean feel bad 20 years later because he ended up not being able to take her to her school dance at the age of 16? Way to hold a grudge. I found the ghost story rather bland (other than the deaths which were quite gruesome), and for some reason didn't really care about cute little Timmy and his ghost mamma. The big reveal and emotional resolution felt a little flat to me. And I am not sure how I was supposed to take Timmy's situation in relationship to Dean's; was there supposed to be a correlation there? A mother who would do anything for her son including killing people and a father who's wantonly cruel to his son for no real reason at all? What was I supposed to take away from that?

Some of my main problem was in the logic of the setup; there is NO WAY Dean would have ended up at a reform school for what he'd done… none. He'd either have ended up back with John, or if John really HAD abandoned him as was insinuated in the ep (which is grossly OOC IMO) then he would have been remanded to CPS and placed in foster care until he was 18. None of this tracks for me. And the John thing doesn't track either, it does not compute for me that John would ever have done such a thing to Dean; he was firm, perhaps even harsh at times, but he was never callus or cavalier about either of his son's wellbeing.

The fact that Sonny (a character I actually liked and felt worked well) could have had TWO suspicious and horrifically violent murders in his house and continued to operate his reform school also defies logic. In any normal scenario Sonny would have been arrested for Ruth's awful, awful death simply for the fact that it was HIS HOUSE. And those kids would have been out of there at the first sign of trouble.

And lastly, Dean. I hate what this episode did to Dean in my eyes. So, we get some big "reveal" that Dean's wanted normal all along, just like Sammy and has secretly never liked hunting ever, and he hates John and has always wanted out. He liked that reform school better than his own life and if it wasn't for Sam, be probably would have stayed there. So, was all of Dean enthusiasm for the hunt, his commitment to his father, his faith in his family and their quest to kill YED at the start of the series all just a lie then? Was all of Dean's tearing down of Sam for wanting to go to Stanford really about Sam's choosing his own life over the life of the family business or was it really just petty jealousy on Dean's part because he never had the guts to try for his own normal the way Sam did? The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

So, not only did I hate how this great big "reveal" about Dean's past has altered the way I see his character and his motivations, but I hated Sam's characterizatio n in this episode as well. As an adult he can barely remember something as traumatic as his beloved brother going missing and being gone for two whole months?! This is the guy who came apart at the seams last season when Dean was missing and presumed dead, right? Sam was so blaze` about the whole thing, it was like Dean's disappearance had no affect on him. Additionally, Sam had just learned that not only had John dumped Dean, but he'd also dumped Sam as well. Shouldn't that have registered with Sam on some level? He's only just discovered that John wasn't off looking for or trying to save Dean, he was off by himself doing God knows what, and he didn't seem to care to spend any of that two months that Dean was away with Sam. And with Sam as a child we get one small shot of Sam casually playing with his toy in the back of the Impala. No excitement to see that Dean's not dead; no interest in greeting the brother he hasn't seen for the past two months… not even a "Dean!" from him to show he cares in any way at all. Why was Dean so eager to return to this ungrateful little brat who shows no interest in his big brother's well being? Everything was just so out of whack in this episode, there was no logic to the story components, no normal reactions from the characters about situations that should have been more important or traumatic. The revelations in the present time should have been more dramatic and felt more significant. For me, this episode was a real clunker and will not be on my re-watch list. :-x
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 21:06
I think I have figured out why I am currently dissatisfied. I've spent a fair bit of time re-watching the early series episodes, and I quite enjoy them still.

I really miss the darker, even scary episodes where the boys were travelling down the highway, living out of motels, and fighting monsters.... Where they trusted each other to have each others backs, teased and taunted and argued with each other, but without the heartbreaking conflicts and divides. We were always sure that they'd eventually sort it out, that the 'co-dependent soul mates' were still ok. They communicated their trust and brotherly love with glances and touches and teasing concern, always aware of where the other was, and if he was well... There were no magic-fix angels to lean on, and BOTH boys had empathy, were smart and capable. Both were BAMFs.

And we could trust the show to get all the details right - to reflect upon things that happened, as they happened. When Canon was almost sacrosanct.

That's the show I want to still see...
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 21:06
I think I have figured out why I am currently dissatisfied. I've spent a fair bit of time re-watching the early series episodes, and I quite enjoy them still.

I really miss the darker, even scary episodes where the boys were travelling down the highway, living out of motels, and fighting monsters.... Where they trusted each other to have each others backs, teased and taunted and argued with each other, but without the heartbreaking conflicts and divides. We were always sure that they'd eventually sort it out, that the 'co-dependent soul mates' were still ok. They communicated their trust and brotherly love with glances and touches and teasing concern, always aware of where the other was, and if he was well... There were no magic-fix angels to lean on, and BOTH boys had empathy, were smart and capable. Both were BAMFs.

And we could trust the show to get all the details right - to reflect upon things that happened, as they happened. When Canon was almost sacrosanct.

That's the show I want to still see...
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 21:24
E Sam was leaning out of the window towards the house where Dean was. Dean was in the house where Sam couldn't see him. We don't know how the reunion went because we didn't see it. The incident with Dean gone missing wasn't really explained all that well. Did John just come and scoop up Sam and dump him off at Bobby's with no explanation? The boys were pretty used to being dumped off at any point for any reason. Did John come back to get Sam and whisk him off to scoop up Dean again with no explanation? John was very need to know as was shown in DMB. As Sam grew older he started to question and rebel. As a presumably 11 year old he probably didn't dare to ask. The story that Dean and John made up was probably told to Sam at some point after they picked Dean up.
Even John new that Dean wanted a home as again he stated in DMB. I am sure John knew that Dean wanted a normal life just as much as Sam but 26 year old Dean had already decided what his life was going to be, devotion to his family, his dad. This episode wasn't about Sam other than as he explored the house he saw little bits of Deans life that could have been if not for him. This was about Deans journey as a young boy struggling with what was truly important to him, his happiness or his family and when he saw Sam he knew there would never be another choice for him. The episode was not without it's flaws but I said elsewhere I think some of these episodes are for newer (or least not so rabid) fans that aren't as familiar with the back story as the veterans.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 21:24
E Sam was leaning out of the window towards the house where Dean was. Dean was in the house where Sam couldn't see him. We don't know how the reunion went because we didn't see it. The incident with Dean gone missing wasn't really explained all that well. Did John just come and scoop up Sam and dump him off at Bobby's with no explanation? The boys were pretty used to being dumped off at any point for any reason. Did John come back to get Sam and whisk him off to scoop up Dean again with no explanation? John was very need to know as was shown in DMB. As Sam grew older he started to question and rebel. As a presumably 11 year old he probably didn't dare to ask. The story that Dean and John made up was probably told to Sam at some point after they picked Dean up.
Even John new that Dean wanted a home as again he stated in DMB. I am sure John knew that Dean wanted a normal life just as much as Sam but 26 year old Dean had already decided what his life was going to be, devotion to his family, his dad. This episode wasn't about Sam other than as he explored the house he saw little bits of Deans life that could have been if not for him. This was about Deans journey as a young boy struggling with what was truly important to him, his happiness or his family and when he saw Sam he knew there would never be another choice for him. The episode was not without it's flaws but I said elsewhere I think some of these episodes are for newer (or least not so rabid) fans that aren't as familiar with the back story as the veterans.
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 21:28
#40 - That's absolutely no excuse, imo, cheryl42. Writers should be able to write episodes that introduce new fans to what has gone before without having "the veterans" scratching their heads.

#38 E - I'm with you on this one.

ETA: I'm looking forward to seeing the poll results on this one. It seems we either loved it or hated it.
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 21:28
#40 - That's absolutely no excuse, imo, cheryl42. Writers should be able to write episodes that introduce new fans to what has gone before without having "the veterans" scratching their heads.

#38 E - I'm with you on this one.

ETA: I'm looking forward to seeing the poll results on this one. It seems we either loved it or hated it.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 21:36
Heh E tell us how you really feel! :D I can't argue with you on much of this, since the more I think on the episode the more it annoys me too.

Not least because at some point in all this 9 year old Sam WAS actually abandoned by everyone in some crappy motel room with no food and no money for what had to be at least 1 to 2 days just by the length of time it would take for Dean to get into a poker game, lose, go shoplifting, get caught, wait for the cops, go to the station, get processed, end up in a cell, get transferred to a kids home ...

Not that anyone abandoned him deliberately but Dean didn't seem even the slightest bit bothered about this bit of his misdeeds when he was talking to Sonny, did he?

So no one comes out of this looking either good or in character, but hey, them's the breaks, what can you do?

But I have one tiny nit to pick with you. Dean looked at Sam through the window. It wasn't like he was by the car. Sam was leaning out the window with his plane/jet thingy which looks like he was enthusiasticall y waiting for Dean to come out and see it. He didn't see Dean.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 21:36
Heh E tell us how you really feel! :D I can't argue with you on much of this, since the more I think on the episode the more it annoys me too.

Not least because at some point in all this 9 year old Sam WAS actually abandoned by everyone in some crappy motel room with no food and no money for what had to be at least 1 to 2 days just by the length of time it would take for Dean to get into a poker game, lose, go shoplifting, get caught, wait for the cops, go to the station, get processed, end up in a cell, get transferred to a kids home ...

Not that anyone abandoned him deliberately but Dean didn't seem even the slightest bit bothered about this bit of his misdeeds when he was talking to Sonny, did he?

So no one comes out of this looking either good or in character, but hey, them's the breaks, what can you do?

But I have one tiny nit to pick with you. Dean looked at Sam through the window. It wasn't like he was by the car. Sam was leaning out the window with his plane/jet thingy which looks like he was enthusiasticall y waiting for Dean to come out and see it. He didn't see Dean.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 21:39
Quoting st50:
#40 - That's absolutely no excuse, imo, cheryl42. Writers should be able to write episodes that introduce new fans to what has gone before without having "the veterans" scratching their heads.

#38 E - I'm with you on this one.

ETA: I'm looking forward to seeing the poll results on this one. It seems we either loved it or hated it.

ST, yes it does look like there isn't much middle ground :D I agree if we can't have believable or consistent family dynamics, let's go back to just saving people and hunting things!

I watched several episodes of Season 1 last night instead of watching the episode live .... lord this show had soul at one point ....:-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 21:39
Quote:
#40 - That's absolutely no excuse, imo, cheryl42. Writers should be able to write episodes that introduce new fans to what has gone before without having "the veterans" scratching their heads.

#38 E - I'm with you on this one.

ETA: I'm looking forward to seeing the poll results on this one. It seems we either loved it or hated it.
ST, yes it does look like there isn't much middle ground :D I agree if we can't have believable or consistent family dynamics, let's go back to just saving people and hunting things!

I watched several episodes of Season 1 last night instead of watching the episode live .... lord this show had soul at one point ....:-)
E
# E 2013-11-20 21:43
What would have worked better for me story wise would have been if Dean had been sent by John to the farm when he was 14/16 as part of a hunt in an "under cover" capacity instead of this whole "caught stealing" ridiculousness. It would have worked out much better IMO as Sonny could have learned what Dean did re: the supernatural and disapproved of it while giving Dean a chance at normal and showing him that there was something more for him out there, just like Sam ala After School Special. Then Dean's love interest could have been in real danger from his work making his abandonment of her more realistic and necessary and her egregious grudge holding more understandable. It would have made more sense for the situation with Sam as well… still too young to go on a hunt, especially an extended hunt, and sent to Bobby's to keep him safe and lied to because John made the dubious decision to allow Dean to basically hunt solo at such a young age. It would have still put John into some morally questionable territory regarding his parenting choices without making him look wantonly cruel. Sam could have then questioned all of this as an adult when the real story came to light. Then the episode could have come full circle with another hunt at Sonny's place in the present time bringing all the players back together once again. More symmetry,
more logical flow of the story components, no one is totally vilified for their dubious choices and the basic elements of the major characters remain sound and unchallenged…… a much better scenario IMO then what we got.
E
# E 2013-11-20 21:43
What would have worked better for me story wise would have been if Dean had been sent by John to the farm when he was 14/16 as part of a hunt in an "under cover" capacity instead of this whole "caught stealing" ridiculousness. It would have worked out much better IMO as Sonny could have learned what Dean did re: the supernatural and disapproved of it while giving Dean a chance at normal and showing him that there was something more for him out there, just like Sam ala After School Special. Then Dean's love interest could have been in real danger from his work making his abandonment of her more realistic and necessary and her egregious grudge holding more understandable. It would have made more sense for the situation with Sam as well… still too young to go on a hunt, especially an extended hunt, and sent to Bobby's to keep him safe and lied to because John made the dubious decision to allow Dean to basically hunt solo at such a young age. It would have still put John into some morally questionable territory regarding his parenting choices without making him look wantonly cruel. Sam could have then questioned all of this as an adult when the real story came to light. Then the episode could have come full circle with another hunt at Sonny's place in the present time bringing all the players back together once again. More symmetry,
more logical flow of the story components, no one is totally vilified for their dubious choices and the basic elements of the major characters remain sound and unchallenged…… a much better scenario IMO then what we got.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 21:45
Quoting E:
What would have worked better for me story wise would have been if Dean had been sent by John to the farm when he was 14/16 as part of a hunt in an "under cover" capacity instead of this whole "caught stealing" ridiculousness. It would have worked out much better IMO as Sonny could have learned what Dean did re: the supernatural and disapproved of it while giving Dean a chance at normal and showing him that there was something more for him out there, just like Sam ala After School Special. Then Dean's love interest could have been in real danger from his work making his abandonment of her more realistic and necessary and her egregious grudge holding more understandable. It would have made more sense for the situation with Sam as well… still too young to go on a hunt, especially an extended hunt, and sent to Bobby's to keep him safe and lied to because John made the dubious decision to allow Dean to basically hunt solo at such a young age. It would have still put John into some morally questionable territory regarding his parenting choices without making him look wantonly cruel. Sam could have then questioned all of this as an adult when the real story came to light. Then the episode could have come full circle with another hunt at Sonny's place in the present time bringing all the players back together once again. More symmetry,
more logical flow of the story components, no one is totally vilified for their dubious choices and the basic elements of the major characters remain sound and unchallenged…… a much better scenario IMO then what we got.

E that is a much better plot! *applause*
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 21:45
Quote:
What would have worked better for me story wise would have been if Dean had been sent by John to the farm when he was 14/16 as part of a hunt in an "under cover" capacity instead of this whole "caught stealing" ridiculousness. It would have worked out much better IMO as Sonny could have learned what Dean did re: the supernatural and disapproved of it while giving Dean a chance at normal and showing him that there was something more for him out there, just like Sam ala After School Special. Then Dean's love interest could have been in real danger from his work making his abandonment of her more realistic and necessary and her egregious grudge holding more understandable. It would have made more sense for the situation with Sam as well… still too young to go on a hunt, especially an extended hunt, and sent to Bobby's to keep him safe and lied to because John made the dubious decision to allow Dean to basically hunt solo at such a young age. It would have still put John into some morally questionable territory regarding his parenting choices without making him look wantonly cruel. Sam could have then questioned all of this as an adult when the real story came to light. Then the episode could have come full circle with another hunt at Sonny's place in the present time bringing all the players back together once again. More symmetry,
more logical flow of the story components, no one is totally vilified for their dubious choices and the basic elements of the major characters remain sound and unchallenged…… a much better scenario IMO then what we got.
E that is a much better plot! *applause*
E
# E 2013-11-20 22:05
Quoting eilf:
Heh E tell us how you really feel! :D I can't argue with you on much of this, since the more I think on the episode the more it annoys me too.

Not least because at some point in all this 9 year old Sam WAS actually abandoned by everyone in some crappy motel room with no food and no money for what had to be at least 1 to 2 days just by the length of time it would take for Dean to get into a poker game, lose, go shoplifting, get caught, wait for the cops, go to the station, get processed, end up in a cell, get transferred to a kids home ...

Not that anyone abandoned him deliberately but Dean didn't seem even the slightest bit bothered about this bit of his misdeeds when he was talking to Sonny, did he?

So no one comes out of this looking either good or in character, but hey, them's the breaks, what can you do?

But I have one tiny nit to pick with you. Dean looked at Sam through the window. It wasn't like he was by the car. Sam was leaning out the window with his plane/jet thingy which looks like he was enthusiastically waiting for Dean to come out and see it. He didn't see Dean.


Hi eilf, Yeah… I guess I am not on the fence about this one! :D I just really disliked how unrealistic the entire set up was and how no one seemed to be reacting like a real person in this one. That's a good point about Sam being left alone at the motel. I wonder how long he was left there before John was able to get back? You're right, it could have been a day or more. Nothing was mentioned about how traumatizing THAT scenario might have been to the child Sam either.

About the end with Sam and his toy, I just didn't get any indication from him that he was in any way concerned or eager to see Dean even after two whole months of being apart. Since Dean has been set up as Sam's primary care giver that must have been very hard on Sam, even if he didn't know about the "lost on a hunt" story at that moment. Shouldn't he have wanted to see his brother more? Shouldn't he have been eagerly seeking him out? Jumping out of the car and running up to him, hugging him? Something!!!? Maybe this is a small thing, but we've been hit over the head repeatedly both last season and this one with the 'Dean will do anything for Sam trope' until I am about ready to grant Dean martyrdom; but what about Sam's willingness to do anything for Dean? He's not been shown to really be willing to sacrifice much of anything for Dean; its all been about what Dean will do for Sam. All we've seen from Sam in the reciprocity department is that Sam was willing to let Dean rot in purgatory and get on with his life alone without his brother. But in order to get any information about what Sam MIGHT be willing to do for Dean (as I am sure Sam loves Dean as much as we've seen time and time and time again how much Dean loves Sam) we'd have to get some Sam POV, and that seems in even shorter supply than ever before. Sam's become a walking talking angel condom; his limited POV from last season has become virtually none. We know more about how Zeke feels about things than Sam does.
E
# E 2013-11-20 22:05
Quote:
Heh E tell us how you really feel! :D I can't argue with you on much of this, since the more I think on the episode the more it annoys me too.

Not least because at some point in all this 9 year old Sam WAS actually abandoned by everyone in some crappy motel room with no food and no money for what had to be at least 1 to 2 days just by the length of time it would take for Dean to get into a poker game, lose, go shoplifting, get caught, wait for the cops, go to the station, get processed, end up in a cell, get transferred to a kids home ...

Not that anyone abandoned him deliberately but Dean didn't seem even the slightest bit bothered about this bit of his misdeeds when he was talking to Sonny, did he?

So no one comes out of this looking either good or in character, but hey, them's the breaks, what can you do?

But I have one tiny nit to pick with you. Dean looked at Sam through the window. It wasn't like he was by the car. Sam was leaning out the window with his plane/jet thingy which looks like he was enthusiastically waiting for Dean to come out and see it. He didn't see Dean.
Hi eilf, Yeah… I guess I am not on the fence about this one! :D I just really disliked how unrealistic the entire set up was and how no one seemed to be reacting like a real person in this one. That's a good point about Sam being left alone at the motel. I wonder how long he was left there before John was able to get back? You're right, it could have been a day or more. Nothing was mentioned about how traumatizing THAT scenario might have been to the child Sam either.

About the end with Sam and his toy, I just didn't get any indication from him that he was in any way concerned or eager to see Dean even after two whole months of being apart. Since Dean has been set up as Sam's primary care giver that must have been very hard on Sam, even if he didn't know about the "lost on a hunt" story at that moment. Shouldn't he have wanted to see his brother more? Shouldn't he have been eagerly seeking him out? Jumping out of the car and running up to him, hugging him? Something!!!? Maybe this is a small thing, but we've been hit over the head repeatedly both last season and this one with the 'Dean will do anything for Sam trope' until I am about ready to grant Dean martyrdom; but what about Sam's willingness to do anything for Dean? He's not been shown to really be willing to sacrifice much of anything for Dean; its all been about what Dean will do for Sam. All we've seen from Sam in the reciprocity department is that Sam was willing to let Dean rot in purgatory and get on with his life alone without his brother. But in order to get any information about what Sam MIGHT be willing to do for Dean (as I am sure Sam loves Dean as much as we've seen time and time and time again how much Dean loves Sam) we'd have to get some Sam POV, and that seems in even shorter supply than ever before. Sam's become a walking talking angel condom; his limited POV from last season has become virtually none. We know more about how Zeke feels about things than Sam does.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 22:11
E I agree that was where I thought the story was going to go since Sonny knew about the family business. But I was satisfied with how the story did unfold.
st50 I am sure it is a delicate dance for tptb to try and please the veterans while bringing new viewers up to speed. I don't envy them that task. My sister became a huge fan during a S7 marathon on TNT. She is desperately trying to catch up and I keep trying to tell her that she has to pay attention to everything that happens because it will come up again not only in the current season but sometimes many seasons later. That is lot for a new fan to digest sometimes so I think that SPN is trying to make sure that new viewers are also entertained. I am sure that their intention is not to insult the veteran fans. It must be hard to please such a well informed passionate fanbase.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 22:11
E I agree that was where I thought the story was going to go since Sonny knew about the family business. But I was satisfied with how the story did unfold.
st50 I am sure it is a delicate dance for tptb to try and please the veterans while bringing new viewers up to speed. I don't envy them that task. My sister became a huge fan during a S7 marathon on TNT. She is desperately trying to catch up and I keep trying to tell her that she has to pay attention to everything that happens because it will come up again not only in the current season but sometimes many seasons later. That is lot for a new fan to digest sometimes so I think that SPN is trying to make sure that new viewers are also entertained. I am sure that their intention is not to insult the veteran fans. It must be hard to please such a well informed passionate fanbase.
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 22:19
Popping back in to say (ETA: to E) I agree with every word you've written here... and your re-write is my new head canon. :)

Cheryl42 - nobody said it was easy, but absolutely nothing has changed in the fandom. We've always been this "obsessed", and the writers know it. They get paid to make it work.
st50
# st50 2013-11-20 22:19
Popping back in to say (ETA: to E) I agree with every word you've written here... and your re-write is my new head canon. :)

Cheryl42 - nobody said it was easy, but absolutely nothing has changed in the fandom. We've always been this "obsessed", and the writers know it. They get paid to make it work.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 22:25
Well all I can say is that it worked for me sorry it didn't work for you. It seems that this episode is very polarizing which is to bad. I am sure that wasn't the intention of the writer.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-20 22:25
Well all I can say is that it worked for me sorry it didn't work for you. It seems that this episode is very polarizing which is to bad. I am sure that wasn't the intention of the writer.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 22:29
Quoting E:
[quote name="eilf"]But in order to get any information about what Sam MIGHT be willing to do for Dean (as I am sure Sam loves Dean as much as we've seen time and time and time again how much Dean loves Sam) we'd have to get some Sam POV, and that seems in even shorter supply than ever before. Sam's become a walking talking angel condom; his limited POV from last season has become virtually none. We know more about how Zeke feels about things than Sam does.

Ah the eternal story that we get no response to by TPTB because we don't abuse the writers about it on Twitter (enough), I guess....

I was just writing an open letter to Adam Glass. He isn't the only one by a fair way (cough*Robbie Thompson*cough) who doesn't make any attempt to write for Sam except as Sam-being-any-c haracter-except -Sam. However it is addressed to him because of a 'funny' tweet he wrote last week about how hey Jared and Mark Sheppard are entertaining, he should write scenes for Sam and Crowley....well you are half-way there, dude....

Dear Adam,
instead of shoehorning Sam into an epsiode to be a witness to Dean's awesomeness (and Dean IS awesome, no doubt about it in the world), as you have now done with Bad Boys and F&G, could I ask you to do a writing experiment? Write an episode with just Sam (no, wait, come back, hear me out!). Have him communicate with people, make friends, be a person. Think of who he is and why people might like him if he ever spoke to him.Ok? Done? ... Now, write Dean into it with the same sort of love and care you give the character always.
There, that's an episode of Supernatural, thanks :-)
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-20 22:29
Quote:
But in order to get any information about what Sam MIGHT be willing to do for Dean (as I am sure Sam loves Dean as much as we've seen time and time and time again how much Dean loves Sam) we'd have to get some Sam POV, and that seems in even shorter supply than ever before. Sam's become a walking talking angel condom; his limited POV from last season has become virtually none. We know more about how Zeke feels about things than Sam does.
Ah the eternal story that we get no response to by TPTB because we don't abuse the writers about it on Twitter (enough), I guess....

I was just writing an open letter to Adam Glass. He isn't the only one by a fair way (cough*Robbie Thompson*cough) who doesn't make any attempt to write for Sam except as Sam-being-any-c haracter-except -Sam. However it is addressed to him because of a 'funny' tweet he wrote last week about how hey Jared and Mark Sheppard are entertaining, he should write scenes for Sam and Crowley....well you are half-way there, dude....

Dear Adam,
instead of shoehorning Sam into an epsiode to be a witness to Dean's awesomeness (and Dean IS awesome, no doubt about it in the world), as you have now done with Bad Boys and F&G, could I ask you to do a writing experiment? Write an episode with just Sam (no, wait, come back, hear me out!). Have him communicate with people, make friends, be a person. Think of who he is and why people might like him if he ever spoke to him.Ok? Done? ... Now, write Dean into it with the same sort of love and care you give the character always.
There, that's an episode of Supernatural, thanks :-)
alice
# alice 2013-11-20 23:55
Wow, I'm trying to catch up with all the comments! I didn't think I'd get much of a reaction other than "You suck Alice!" I've done some replies, but here's a few more:

#30 - Nate, I'm not saying there haven't been mythology episodes. I'm saying there hasn't been any forward movement in the mythology. "Heaven Can't Wait" did NOTHING to move things forward. It was a great look at showing how Castiel is struggling to be human, but other than a lost angel who was mistaking human suffering, nothing really happened. I mean geez, Crowley is STILL in the basement? Snails pace.
I gave a very positive review of "Dog Dean Afternoon" but truth be told, other than Sam getting another clue about Ezekiel, not much happened in the myth story in that one either.

#37 - cheryl42, I do agree, this episode very much does fit with the flow of the others this season. I'm just getting tired of waiting for something to happen! I'm still using seasons 4 and 5 as my yardstick, and S9 is not measuring up. But yes, we do need to wait for the entire product to make final judgment.

I can't find the comment, so I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but to whoever said that every episode is polarizing these days, you're dead on. The writers can't please everyone, and I don't expect them to please me. They have to stick with their creative license. But as a TV critic, I'm allowed to say when I'm not happy! It's kind of my job. :-)

Thanks everyone for all the comments. That's what makes this fandom fun, the diversity.
Alice
# Alice 2013-11-20 23:55
Wow, I'm trying to catch up with all the comments! I didn't think I'd get much of a reaction other than "You suck Alice!" I've done some replies, but here's a few more:

#30 - Nate, I'm not saying there haven't been mythology episodes. I'm saying there hasn't been any forward movement in the mythology. "Heaven Can't Wait" did NOTHING to move things forward. It was a great look at showing how Castiel is struggling to be human, but other than a lost angel who was mistaking human suffering, nothing really happened. I mean geez, Crowley is STILL in the basement? Snails pace.
I gave a very positive review of "Dog Dean Afternoon" but truth be told, other than Sam getting another clue about Ezekiel, not much happened in the myth story in that one either.

#37 - cheryl42, I do agree, this episode very much does fit with the flow of the others this season. I'm just getting tired of waiting for something to happen! I'm still using seasons 4 and 5 as my yardstick, and S9 is not measuring up. But yes, we do need to wait for the entire product to make final judgment.

I can't find the comment, so I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but to whoever said that every episode is polarizing these days, you're dead on. The writers can't please everyone, and I don't expect them to please me. They have to stick with their creative license. But as a TV critic, I'm allowed to say when I'm not happy! It's kind of my job. :-)

Thanks everyone for all the comments. That's what makes this fandom fun, the diversity.
GwenT
# GwenT 2013-11-21 00:09
Alice, your review put into words my exact thoughts. While I haven't hated the last few episodes, they also didn't "do it" for me. Let's get on with the myth-arc!
GwenT
# GwenT 2013-11-21 00:09
Alice, your review put into words my exact thoughts. While I haven't hated the last few episodes, they also didn't "do it" for me. Let's get on with the myth-arc!
ADavis
# ADavis 2013-11-21 00:46
I 100% agree. Everything you said in this is what I felt after watching the episode. If it wasn't for After School Special I probably would have loved this episode, but putting those two flashback episodes less than 2 years apart and having such a drastic personality switch didn't make sense to me.
ADavis
# ADavis 2013-11-21 00:46
I 100% agree. Everything you said in this is what I felt after watching the episode. If it wasn't for After School Special I probably would have loved this episode, but putting those two flashback episodes less than 2 years apart and having such a drastic personality switch didn't make sense to me.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-21 03:36
Quoting cheryl42:
E Sam was leaning out of the window towards the house where Dean was. Dean was in the house where Sam couldn't see him. We don't know how the reunion went because we didn't see it. The incident with Dean gone missing wasn't really explained all that well. Did John just come and scoop up Sam and dump him off at Bobby's with no explanation? The boys were pretty used to being dumped off at any point for any reason. Did John come back to get Sam and whisk him off to scoop up Dean again with no explanation? John was very need to know as was shown in DMB. As Sam grew older he started to question and rebel. As a presumably 11 year old he probably didn't dare to ask. The story that Dean and John made up was probably told to Sam at some point after they picked Dean up.
Even John new that Dean wanted a home as again he stated in DMB. I am sure John knew that Dean wanted a normal life just as much as Sam but 26 year old Dean had already decided what his life was going to be, devotion to his family, his dad. This episode wasn't about Sam other than as he explored the house he saw little bits of Deans life that could have been if not for him. This was about Deans journey as a young boy struggling with what was truly important to him, his happiness or his family and when he saw Sam he knew there would never be another choice for him. The episode was not without it's flaws but I said elsewhere I think some of these episodes are for newer (or least not so rabid) fans that aren't as familiar with the back story as the veterans.

The scene with Sam playing with a airplane was embarrassing to say the least. I would be seriously disturbed if that was meant to be a 11/12 yr old Sam . And one that as no resemblance to the Sam Colin Ford has portrayed and the Sam that at 8 yrs old found that journal and the profound effect that had on him afterwards

That was the behaviour of a 5 yr old who did not have a care in the world not a 11/12 yr old who had a wake up call to hunting and the dangers for his family.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-21 03:36
Quote:
E Sam was leaning out of the window towards the house where Dean was. Dean was in the house where Sam couldn't see him. We don't know how the reunion went because we didn't see it. The incident with Dean gone missing wasn't really explained all that well. Did John just come and scoop up Sam and dump him off at Bobby's with no explanation? The boys were pretty used to being dumped off at any point for any reason. Did John come back to get Sam and whisk him off to scoop up Dean again with no explanation? John was very need to know as was shown in DMB. As Sam grew older he started to question and rebel. As a presumably 11 year old he probably didn't dare to ask. The story that Dean and John made up was probably told to Sam at some point after they picked Dean up.
Even John new that Dean wanted a home as again he stated in DMB. I am sure John knew that Dean wanted a normal life just as much as Sam but 26 year old Dean had already decided what his life was going to be, devotion to his family, his dad. This episode wasn't about Sam other than as he explored the house he saw little bits of Deans life that could have been if not for him. This was about Deans journey as a young boy struggling with what was truly important to him, his happiness or his family and when he saw Sam he knew there would never be another choice for him. The episode was not without it's flaws but I said elsewhere I think some of these episodes are for newer (or least not so rabid) fans that aren't as familiar with the back story as the veterans.
The scene with Sam playing with a airplane was embarrassing to say the least. I would be seriously disturbed if that was meant to be a 11/12 yr old Sam . And one that as no resemblance to the Sam Colin Ford has portrayed and the Sam that at 8 yrs old found that journal and the profound effect that had on him afterwards

That was the behaviour of a 5 yr old who did not have a care in the world not a 11/12 yr old who had a wake up call to hunting and the dangers for his family.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-21 04:09
Sharon I was just trying to see the episode in the spirit it was written. I know that many fans have deep issues with the script and portrayals of Sam and Dean. Veteran fans of the show (and I have watched every episode way more times than I would ever admit to anyone other the people on this board) hold the writers to a very high standard. Sometimes it is a hit sometimes it's a miss. For me it was more of a hit than a miss.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-21 04:09
Sharon I was just trying to see the episode in the spirit it was written. I know that many fans have deep issues with the script and portrayals of Sam and Dean. Veteran fans of the show (and I have watched every episode way more times than I would ever admit to anyone other the people on this board) hold the writers to a very high standard. Sometimes it is a hit sometimes it's a miss. For me it was more of a hit than a miss.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-21 04:21
Alice I guess what that means is that your reviews generate the most debate. Maybe we need your insight whether or not we agree. So please keep reviewing the show even if it seems boring to you. Your voice has been missed.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-21 04:21
Alice I guess what that means is that your reviews generate the most debate. Maybe we need your insight whether or not we agree. So please keep reviewing the show even if it seems boring to you. Your voice has been missed.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-11-21 07:52
I've got to say that I totally disagree Alice. I loved this ep, as did many many other fans.

I am sorry to see how jaded you seem to have become. I've just read Sweetondeans review - who is an equally long serving fan. Her enthusiasm for the show remains undimmed, as does mine, and her take on this ep far better reflects mine, and the majority of responses I've seen to it, than yours does.

Sorry, but if this ep didn't connect with you then I am struggling to think of what could reignite your enthusiasm.

Also some of your gripes are just the facts of life for a US network TV show. There has always been the pacing issues caused by sweeps and the hiatuses. It is maybe more obvious in a very mythology driven show like SPN than it is for more procedural shows, and it is clearly a bigger challenge the longer you've been on air, but it is hardly a new phenomena or one unique to SPN. I'm not sure why that is suddenly such an issue.

As for your other points that it didn't tell us anything we didn't know etc - I disagree but I doubt there is much point debating why because emotionally you were numb to it and no amount of logical discussion now can change that.

I feel sad that something has broken in your relationship with the show. Maybe it is so bound up in your head now with all the problems you've had keeping the website going? Maybe it is now too much like work rather than a fun hobby? Maybe we take what goes into keeping WFB going for granted (if so for my part I do appreciate it and this site).

Whatever it is, I am sad to see it, and I am glad you still have writers here who haven't lost their mojo.
Geordiegirl1967
# Geordiegirl1967 2013-11-21 07:52
I've got to say that I totally disagree Alice. I loved this ep, as did many many other fans.

I am sorry to see how jaded you seem to have become. I've just read Sweetondeans review - who is an equally long serving fan. Her enthusiasm for the show remains undimmed, as does mine, and her take on this ep far better reflects mine, and the majority of responses I've seen to it, than yours does.

Sorry, but if this ep didn't connect with you then I am struggling to think of what could reignite your enthusiasm.

Also some of your gripes are just the facts of life for a US network TV show. There has always been the pacing issues caused by sweeps and the hiatuses. It is maybe more obvious in a very mythology driven show like SPN than it is for more procedural shows, and it is clearly a bigger challenge the longer you've been on air, but it is hardly a new phenomena or one unique to SPN. I'm not sure why that is suddenly such an issue.

As for your other points that it didn't tell us anything we didn't know etc - I disagree but I doubt there is much point debating why because emotionally you were numb to it and no amount of logical discussion now can change that.

I feel sad that something has broken in your relationship with the show. Maybe it is so bound up in your head now with all the problems you've had keeping the website going? Maybe it is now too much like work rather than a fun hobby? Maybe we take what goes into keeping WFB going for granted (if so for my part I do appreciate it and this site).

Whatever it is, I am sad to see it, and I am glad you still have writers here who haven't lost their mojo.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-11-21 08:43
I guess I still can't get to that place where I see a point to this one. The ghost story was chopped up so much by the flashbacks that it was rendered dull, even with the gruesome aspect of it. The flashbacks themselves, well, I've never been fond of young Sam & Dean, unless there is a real purpose. But, if Dean had been telling the story to Sam, so Sam could understand, instead of just remembering ala Amelia, then the flashbacks might have registered better with me. Sam got all that "this was the best time of your life" from a bed and a wrestling award?
I suppose I do expect better, especially if better would have been easy to do. I did want the "lie" to mean something and in the end it was left to fall away. I would have loved a short scene to tie it all together: Sam, saying he thought the "lost" part was a lie and that he always assumed Dean had runaway because he was such a burden. Or, Sam now voicing his pain that Dad has decided to just send him to Bobby's on the pretense of looking for Dean, only to find out he just didn't want to be with Sam. A specific correlation to the current "lie", Or to the eventual pain that revealing the lie could cause. But it appears the "lie" was left to...lie and there was no purpose for it all. And, if there is no purpose for it, they might as well have just left it as "yeah, I remember when you were send to that farm for stealing, Dad was pissed" or something.
My feeling that the ball was dropped here is what is keeping me from getting any enjoyment from the rest of the story I guess. Not that they haven't dropped the ball before, after so many episodes, it's bound to happen. It's just that it could have been so easy to fix.
Oh well, many more fans loved it so there must have been something there that I missed.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-11-21 08:43
I guess I still can't get to that place where I see a point to this one. The ghost story was chopped up so much by the flashbacks that it was rendered dull, even with the gruesome aspect of it. The flashbacks themselves, well, I've never been fond of young Sam & Dean, unless there is a real purpose. But, if Dean had been telling the story to Sam, so Sam could understand, instead of just remembering ala Amelia, then the flashbacks might have registered better with me. Sam got all that "this was the best time of your life" from a bed and a wrestling award?
I suppose I do expect better, especially if better would have been easy to do. I did want the "lie" to mean something and in the end it was left to fall away. I would have loved a short scene to tie it all together: Sam, saying he thought the "lost" part was a lie and that he always assumed Dean had runaway because he was such a burden. Or, Sam now voicing his pain that Dad has decided to just send him to Bobby's on the pretense of looking for Dean, only to find out he just didn't want to be with Sam. A specific correlation to the current "lie", Or to the eventual pain that revealing the lie could cause. But it appears the "lie" was left to...lie and there was no purpose for it all. And, if there is no purpose for it, they might as well have just left it as "yeah, I remember when you were send to that farm for stealing, Dad was pissed" or something.
My feeling that the ball was dropped here is what is keeping me from getting any enjoyment from the rest of the story I guess. Not that they haven't dropped the ball before, after so many episodes, it's bound to happen. It's just that it could have been so easy to fix.
Oh well, many more fans loved it so there must have been something there that I missed.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 08:49
Quoting alice:
Wow, I'm trying to catch up with all the comments! I didn't think I'd get much of a reaction other than "You suck Alice!" I've done some replies, but here's a few more:

#30 - Nate, I'm not saying there haven't been mythology episodes. I'm saying there hasn't been any forward movement in the mythology. "Heaven Can't Wait" did NOTHING to move things forward. It was a great look at showing how Castiel is struggling to be human, but other than a lost angel who was mistaking human suffering, nothing really happened. I mean geez, Crowley is STILL in the basement? Snails pace.
I gave a very positive review of "Dog Dean Afternoon" but truth be told, other than Sam getting another clue about Ezekiel, not much happened in the myth story in that one either.

#37 - cheryl42, I do agree, this episode very much does fit with the flow of the others this season. I'm just getting tired of waiting for something to happen! I'm still using seasons 4 and 5 as my yardstick, and S9 is not measuring up. But yes, we do need to wait for the entire product to make final judgment.

I can't find the comment, so I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but to whoever said that every episode is polarizing these days, you're dead on. The writers can't please everyone, and I don't expect them to please me. They have to stick with their creative license. But as a TV critic, I'm allowed to say when I'm not happy! It's kind of my job. :-)

Thanks everyone for all the comments. That's what makes this fandom fun, the diversity.


WFB shows what is gonig on in Congress! This episode is one that divides people. One member will leave a comment "I loved this episode" (my view), and the next logs "I HATED this," and then members go back and forth shooting holes in the previous member's comments.
Alice--I disagree that "Heaven Can't Wait" did absolutely nothing to move things forward. We caught up with Cas and saw how well he is adjusting to being human. This season is about what happens on Earth when the Angles fell. We saw one of the Angels not fully knowing how to deal with Human pain. We had the reveal that Metatron's spell could not be reversed (but from Crowley..). We also had the (IMO) shocking ending showing Crowley inject himself with blood (which SHOULD have been talked about in "Bad Boys" as I think that's huge). So "HCW" wasn't a fast paced move forward, but it was not moving at a snail's pace, mythology-wise.
As far as canon, I think TPTB going forward should never give a date or age when doing flashbacks! Years and ages have been wrong in the past (how, I have no idea), but it happens. I also don't agree with some comments on how "Bad Boys" was a character beat-down of John Winchester. He has left the boys for months at a time, that is not new information. Dean did something bad, and was caught. The police had a home for boys that could take Dean in for a couple months. He would be safe, and maybe learn a lesson that he couldn't if John left him somewhere else for 2 months. What is wrong with that? The ending where Dean could not go to the dance? What a beautifully acted scene by young Dean. Dean knows when Dad comes, we leave right away. There are probably lives on the line. He looks out, sees Sam and the Impala. A smile is his first reaction, then sadness over ditching his GF, but hey, that's my life. He never had a thought of not going with Sam and John. All of those emotions were perfectly played by Dylan Everett.
I loved "Bad Boys." Also a great performance by Blake Gibbons as Sonny, I would love to see him return. The scenes of Timmy explaining his mother's death, over kid's drawings, was incredible. The story was classic ghost story SPN. It did not move the plot of S9 forward, but I love looks back to the boys past, even thought we have been there/done that many times, we got a look at an interesting time in Dean's past. Stong story, excellent performances, sweet ending, thank you Adam Glass.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 08:49
Quote:
Wow, I'm trying to catch up with all the comments! I didn't think I'd get much of a reaction other than "You suck Alice!" I've done some replies, but here's a few more:

#30 - Nate, I'm not saying there haven't been mythology episodes. I'm saying there hasn't been any forward movement in the mythology. "Heaven Can't Wait" did NOTHING to move things forward. It was a great look at showing how Castiel is struggling to be human, but other than a lost angel who was mistaking human suffering, nothing really happened. I mean geez, Crowley is STILL in the basement? Snails pace.
I gave a very positive review of "Dog Dean Afternoon" but truth be told, other than Sam getting another clue about Ezekiel, not much happened in the myth story in that one either.

#37 - cheryl42, I do agree, this episode very much does fit with the flow of the others this season. I'm just getting tired of waiting for something to happen! I'm still using seasons 4 and 5 as my yardstick, and S9 is not measuring up. But yes, we do need to wait for the entire product to make final judgment.

I can't find the comment, so I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but to whoever said that every episode is polarizing these days, you're dead on. The writers can't please everyone, and I don't expect them to please me. They have to stick with their creative license. But as a TV critic, I'm allowed to say when I'm not happy! It's kind of my job. :-)

Thanks everyone for all the comments. That's what makes this fandom fun, the diversity.
WFB shows what is gonig on in Congress! This episode is one that divides people. One member will leave a comment "I loved this episode" (my view), and the next logs "I HATED this," and then members go back and forth shooting holes in the previous member's comments.
Alice--I disagree that "Heaven Can't Wait" did absolutely nothing to move things forward. We caught up with Cas and saw how well he is adjusting to being human. This season is about what happens on Earth when the Angles fell. We saw one of the Angels not fully knowing how to deal with Human pain. We had the reveal that Metatron's spell could not be reversed (but from Crowley..). We also had the (IMO) shocking ending showing Crowley inject himself with blood (which SHOULD have been talked about in "Bad Boys" as I think that's huge). So "HCW" wasn't a fast paced move forward, but it was not moving at a snail's pace, mythology-wise.
As far as canon, I think TPTB going forward should never give a date or age when doing flashbacks! Years and ages have been wrong in the past (how, I have no idea), but it happens. I also don't agree with some comments on how "Bad Boys" was a character beat-down of John Winchester. He has left the boys for months at a time, that is not new information. Dean did something bad, and was caught. The police had a home for boys that could take Dean in for a couple months. He would be safe, and maybe learn a lesson that he couldn't if John left him somewhere else for 2 months. What is wrong with that? The ending where Dean could not go to the dance? What a beautifully acted scene by young Dean. Dean knows when Dad comes, we leave right away. There are probably lives on the line. He looks out, sees Sam and the Impala. A smile is his first reaction, then sadness over ditching his GF, but hey, that's my life. He never had a thought of not going with Sam and John. All of those emotions were perfectly played by Dylan Everett.
I loved "Bad Boys." Also a great performance by Blake Gibbons as Sonny, I would love to see him return. The scenes of Timmy explaining his mother's death, over kid's drawings, was incredible. The story was classic ghost story SPN. It did not move the plot of S9 forward, but I love looks back to the boys past, even thought we have been there/done that many times, we got a look at an interesting time in Dean's past. Stong story, excellent performances, sweet ending, thank you Adam Glass.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-21 10:06
Alice I also think it is a little unfair to compare any season to 4-5. I remember seeing an interview with Jared I think where he said that they thought S4 was going to be their last season so they put everything they could into the show. Look at the writers they had then Eric Kripke, Jeremy Carver, Ben Edlund and Sera Gamble. No offense to the writers now but I am sure they don't have the funding that was available 5 years ago. Also Jeremy Carver likes to do a slow burn. He seems to meticulously put a season together that only makes perfect sense in the end. All of the new shows seem fresh and exciting compared to SPN because they are. We haven't seen these characters before. Their stories are just getting started so yes it is more fun. I am enjoying TO myself even if the acting is sometimes laughable. As long as SPN is on the air I will watch and enjoy.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-21 10:06
Alice I also think it is a little unfair to compare any season to 4-5. I remember seeing an interview with Jared I think where he said that they thought S4 was going to be their last season so they put everything they could into the show. Look at the writers they had then Eric Kripke, Jeremy Carver, Ben Edlund and Sera Gamble. No offense to the writers now but I am sure they don't have the funding that was available 5 years ago. Also Jeremy Carver likes to do a slow burn. He seems to meticulously put a season together that only makes perfect sense in the end. All of the new shows seem fresh and exciting compared to SPN because they are. We haven't seen these characters before. Their stories are just getting started so yes it is more fun. I am enjoying TO myself even if the acting is sometimes laughable. As long as SPN is on the air I will watch and enjoy.
Liz
# Liz 2013-11-21 11:52
I absolutely loved this episode and thought it was the best episode of Season 9.

I thought it was interesting insight into Dean, something that we haven't seen before. Sonny struck the right chord as a caring adult mentor that provided a time for Dean to be the child for once. I always thought Dean was capable of good grades and developing non-hunting talents. So I wasn't suprised that he did so well in the right environment.

I also loved Dean's line about how fixing cars are like doing a puzzle because I think it's nice continuity with what we've seen in the past with Dean.

I thought both Jensen and Dylan (Young Dean) were brilliant in this episode.
Liz
# Liz 2013-11-21 11:52
I absolutely loved this episode and thought it was the best episode of Season 9.

I thought it was interesting insight into Dean, something that we haven't seen before. Sonny struck the right chord as a caring adult mentor that provided a time for Dean to be the child for once. I always thought Dean was capable of good grades and developing non-hunting talents. So I wasn't suprised that he did so well in the right environment.

I also loved Dean's line about how fixing cars are like doing a puzzle because I think it's nice continuity with what we've seen in the past with Dean.

I thought both Jensen and Dylan (Young Dean) were brilliant in this episode.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-21 15:12
This isn't an 'I'm so thrilled with this episode' comment. Warning given.

Apathy, that’s the word, thank you. While the episode itself was perfectly adequate, by the end of it, I just didn’t care. Dean’s big secret? He was caught stealing food for Sam and sent to a boy’s home where he had the time of his life before he gave it all up for his brother. That’s almost as dull a secret as the humanitarian, vegetarian, bff vampire whom Dean had give his life for Sam in season 8. However, it wasn’t the awkward discrepancies that left me ‘meh’ about this episode, it was that all the ‘feels’ didn’t warm me because the anvil that is ‘Dean always sacrifices everything for Sam’ leaves me cold at this stage. It’s been done, time and time again. Alice is right, there was nothing new here. We see (or are reminded) of how Dean sacrifices everything for Sam two or three times a season, every season. We’ve seen the replacement father figure, we’ve seen the girl who just can’t get Dean Winchester out of her head, we’ve seen the abusive John subtext, we’ve seen the Sam learns something new about his brother and both acknowledges and appreciates him all the more for it numerous times.

It was Ginger (I think) who best summed up this episode when he/she said “I'd say the episode did what it was supposed to do -- reminded the audience and Sam of the ultimate sacrifice Dean has made for Sam. I think this reminder will be important to remember as the season progresses.” From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation, a sort of pre-emptive defensive strike for when the reveal about Ezekiel does come. The reminder that Dean has sacrificed everything; his life, his childhood, his happiness, his friends, his first love, his first dance and even his freedom (given that Dean said he stole the food for Sam) was about as subtle as a brick so how can Sam possibly react to what was done to him when what should be to the forefront of his mind (and the fan’s minds) is all that Dean has given for him? With the timing of this episode, and the huge bombshell coming (presumably in 9.09) this feels like a giant set up to gloss over Dean’s responsibility in the Ezekiel situation, to send the message that it doesn’t matter what Dean did, that because Dean constantly sacrifices for Dean, then Sam owes Dean.

However, what’s also frustrating is the (what must be deliberate at this stage) serious imbalance in the explanation, insight and development of the two main characters. We've gotten one comment about how Sam might feel about angelic possession. Where’s the groundwork for setting up the motivations for his inevitable reaction when he finds out about Ezekiel? There have been none (and it’s unlikely there will be any given that mid season break comes with 9.09) yet this is the seventh episode in a row where we’ve seen Dean feel guilty, or question, or justify, or sacrifice, or have some epiphany about why he did what he did. Last year, Sam’s contentious actions got two words ‘I imploded’ by way of insight. Some difference!

Eight seasons of Sam having his face rubbed in the dirt, being told he’s selfish, being reminded of his responsibility, his duty, his abandonment of family etc for wanting (or even thinking about) normal, yet when Dean wants normal not only is he given a support
system by way of Sonny, he gets absolute and unconditional acceptance from Sam. How could Dean pass such scathing judgment on Sam time and again when at one time he felt the exact same way?

I also can’t understand how, at 8, Sam was shown to be intelligent, very inquisitive and also terrified that the monsters would get Dean, yet at 12, when Dean disappeared 'on a hunt' for two months, it seemed to have no impact at all. Even a ‘Jeez, you were here? I was frantic with worry’ or something like that would have made this scenario more realistic.

If this episode had come a few weeks prior, it would not have felt so manipulative, I would not feel so annoyed and I’m sure I’d have enjoyed it a lot more. It didn’t, so unfortunately I didn’t.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-21 15:12
This isn't an 'I'm so thrilled with this episode' comment. Warning given.

Apathy, that’s the word, thank you. While the episode itself was perfectly adequate, by the end of it, I just didn’t care. Dean’s big secret? He was caught stealing food for Sam and sent to a boy’s home where he had the time of his life before he gave it all up for his brother. That’s almost as dull a secret as the humanitarian, vegetarian, bff vampire whom Dean had give his life for Sam in season 8. However, it wasn’t the awkward discrepancies that left me ‘meh’ about this episode, it was that all the ‘feels’ didn’t warm me because the anvil that is ‘Dean always sacrifices everything for Sam’ leaves me cold at this stage. It’s been done, time and time again. Alice is right, there was nothing new here. We see (or are reminded) of how Dean sacrifices everything for Sam two or three times a season, every season. We’ve seen the replacement father figure, we’ve seen the girl who just can’t get Dean Winchester out of her head, we’ve seen the abusive John subtext, we’ve seen the Sam learns something new about his brother and both acknowledges and appreciates him all the more for it numerous times.

It was Ginger (I think) who best summed up this episode when he/she said “I'd say the episode did what it was supposed to do -- reminded the audience and Sam of the ultimate sacrifice Dean has made for Sam. I think this reminder will be important to remember as the season progresses.” From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation, a sort of pre-emptive defensive strike for when the reveal about Ezekiel does come. The reminder that Dean has sacrificed everything; his life, his childhood, his happiness, his friends, his first love, his first dance and even his freedom (given that Dean said he stole the food for Sam) was about as subtle as a brick so how can Sam possibly react to what was done to him when what should be to the forefront of his mind (and the fan’s minds) is all that Dean has given for him? With the timing of this episode, and the huge bombshell coming (presumably in 9.09) this feels like a giant set up to gloss over Dean’s responsibility in the Ezekiel situation, to send the message that it doesn’t matter what Dean did, that because Dean constantly sacrifices for Dean, then Sam owes Dean.

However, what’s also frustrating is the (what must be deliberate at this stage) serious imbalance in the explanation, insight and development of the two main characters. We've gotten one comment about how Sam might feel about angelic possession. Where’s the groundwork for setting up the motivations for his inevitable reaction when he finds out about Ezekiel? There have been none (and it’s unlikely there will be any given that mid season break comes with 9.09) yet this is the seventh episode in a row where we’ve seen Dean feel guilty, or question, or justify, or sacrifice, or have some epiphany about why he did what he did. Last year, Sam’s contentious actions got two words ‘I imploded’ by way of insight. Some difference!

Eight seasons of Sam having his face rubbed in the dirt, being told he’s selfish, being reminded of his responsibility, his duty, his abandonment of family etc for wanting (or even thinking about) normal, yet when Dean wants normal not only is he given a support
system by way of Sonny, he gets absolute and unconditional acceptance from Sam. How could Dean pass such scathing judgment on Sam time and again when at one time he felt the exact same way?

I also can’t understand how, at 8, Sam was shown to be intelligent, very inquisitive and also terrified that the monsters would get Dean, yet at 12, when Dean disappeared 'on a hunt' for two months, it seemed to have no impact at all. Even a ‘Jeez, you were here? I was frantic with worry’ or something like that would have made this scenario more realistic.

If this episode had come a few weeks prior, it would not have felt so manipulative, I would not feel so annoyed and I’m sure I’d have enjoyed it a lot more. It didn’t, so unfortunately I didn’t.
alice
# alice 2013-11-21 15:30
I love you Tim! That would have been my review if I felt like looking at discrepancies. Apathy man, apathy.
Alice
# Alice 2013-11-21 15:30
I love you Tim! That would have been my review if I felt like looking at discrepancies. Apathy man, apathy.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 15:34
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
This isn't a pleasant review. Warning given.

.

To be clear, you didn't like the episode? :)
It's clear you are team Sam, but people on one team or another tend to have strong negative feelings toward the team they are not on. I am on Team Winchester, where there is no favorite brother. I don't see things like poor Dean "always" sacraficing everything for Sam. As the olderst brother myself, and reading many sibling-order studies, I think the boys act accordingly in that order, as well as their personalities. Living the life of a hunter, it's very natural that the boys would have many experiences with the absent Father figure, the girl they had to leave, etc. etc. Dean has always accepted he is a hunter, like it or not (he likes it--look at his face when he sees the Impala arrive to pick him up). Even at that age, he knows he is a hunter, end of story. This crazy life, with Dad gone for months at a time, IS his normal. I disagree with the comment Dean felt the same way as Sam. This episode shows us Dean had well accepted his hunting life. Sam is the brother that took a long time to accept that (has he fully yet?), and that's OK. That is totally Sam, being the younger brother. I think Sam will maybe never feel 100% he has accepted his life, but were the roles reversed, Sam would have jumped in the car too rather than stay with Sonny. The MOL are another reason I think Sam is as OK with the hunting life as he will get He loves being a MOL. At the point in time we saw last night, the boys were well aware there are monsters that can get any of them at any time. They know there Dad will be gone, sometimes for months at a time, but he will come back, When he does, grab your stuff and get in the car, even if there is a dance you are getting dressed for.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 15:34
Quote:
This isn't a pleasant review. Warning given.

.
To be clear, you didn't like the episode? :)
It's clear you are team Sam, but people on one team or another tend to have strong negative feelings toward the team they are not on. I am on Team Winchester, where there is no favorite brother. I don't see things like poor Dean "always" sacraficing everything for Sam. As the olderst brother myself, and reading many sibling-order studies, I think the boys act accordingly in that order, as well as their personalities. Living the life of a hunter, it's very natural that the boys would have many experiences with the absent Father figure, the girl they had to leave, etc. etc. Dean has always accepted he is a hunter, like it or not (he likes it--look at his face when he sees the Impala arrive to pick him up). Even at that age, he knows he is a hunter, end of story. This crazy life, with Dad gone for months at a time, IS his normal. I disagree with the comment Dean felt the same way as Sam. This episode shows us Dean had well accepted his hunting life. Sam is the brother that took a long time to accept that (has he fully yet?), and that's OK. That is totally Sam, being the younger brother. I think Sam will maybe never feel 100% he has accepted his life, but were the roles reversed, Sam would have jumped in the car too rather than stay with Sonny. The MOL are another reason I think Sam is as OK with the hunting life as he will get He loves being a MOL. At the point in time we saw last night, the boys were well aware there are monsters that can get any of them at any time. They know there Dad will be gone, sometimes for months at a time, but he will come back, When he does, grab your stuff and get in the car, even if there is a dance you are getting dressed for.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-21 15:50
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation, a sort of pre-emptive defensive strike for when the reveal about Ezekiel does come. The reminder that Dean has sacrificed everything; his life, his childhood, his happiness, his friends, his first love, his first dance and even his freedom (given that Dean said he stole the food for Sam) was about as subtle as a brick so how can Sam possibly react to what was done to him when what should be to the forefront of his mind (and the fan’s minds) is all that Dean has given for him? With the timing of this episode, and the huge bombshell coming (presumably in 9.09) this feels like a giant set up to gloss over Dean’s responsibility in the Ezekiel situation, to send the message that it doesn’t matter what Dean did, that because Dean constantly sacrifices for Dean, then Sam owes Dean.
.


So, you didn't lilke the episode because you are concerned about something that MIGHT happen in the future? Girl, chill! Take a breath and wait for the end of the story. Maybe, you will be pleaseantly surprised and all that negative antecipation end up being for nothing.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-21 15:50
Quote:
From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation, a sort of pre-emptive defensive strike for when the reveal about Ezekiel does come. The reminder that Dean has sacrificed everything; his life, his childhood, his happiness, his friends, his first love, his first dance and even his freedom (given that Dean said he stole the food for Sam) was about as subtle as a brick so how can Sam possibly react to what was done to him when what should be to the forefront of his mind (and the fan’s minds) is all that Dean has given for him? With the timing of this episode, and the huge bombshell coming (presumably in 9.09) this feels like a giant set up to gloss over Dean’s responsibility in the Ezekiel situation, to send the message that it doesn’t matter what Dean did, that because Dean constantly sacrifices for Dean, then Sam owes Dean.
.
So, you didn't lilke the episode because you are concerned about something that MIGHT happen in the future? Girl, chill! Take a breath and wait for the end of the story. Maybe, you will be pleaseantly surprised and all that negative antecipation end up being for nothing.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 16:07
Quoting Ale:
[quote name="Tim the Enchanter"] From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation, a sort of pre-emptive defensive strike for when the reveal about Ezekiel does come. The reminder that Dean has sacrificed everything; his life, his childhood, his happiness, his friends, his first love, his first dance and even his freedom (given that Dean said he stole the food for Sam) was about as subtle as a brick so how can Sam possibly react to what was done to him when what should be to the forefront of his mind (and the fan’s minds) is all that Dean has given for him? With the timing of this episode, and the huge bombshell coming (presumably in 9.09) this feels like a giant set up to gloss over Dean’s responsibility in the Ezekiel situation, to send the message that it doesn’t matter what Dean did, that because Dean constantly sacrifices for Dean, then Sam owes Dean.
.
quote]
Is the implication that Dean will say " I gave up a DANCE for you, so give me some slack on this Zeke business!" I hope Sam finds out, says "Thank you" and goes to read "The Marvelous Land of Oz."
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 16:07
Quote:
From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation, a sort of pre-emptive defensive strike for when the reveal about Ezekiel does come. The reminder that Dean has sacrificed everything; his life, his childhood, his happiness, his friends, his first love, his first dance and even his freedom (given that Dean said he stole the food for Sam) was about as subtle as a brick so how can Sam possibly react to what was done to him when what should be to the forefront of his mind (and the fan’s minds) is all that Dean has given for him? With the timing of this episode, and the huge bombshell coming (presumably in 9.09) this feels like a giant set up to gloss over Dean’s responsibility in the Ezekiel situation, to send the message that it doesn’t matter what Dean did, that because Dean constantly sacrifices for Dean, then Sam owes Dean.
.
quote]
Is the implication that Dean will say " I gave up a DANCE for you, so give me some slack on this Zeke business!" I hope Sam finds out, says "Thank you" and goes to read "The Marvelous Land of Oz."
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-21 16:11
Quote:
it's clear you are team Sam, but people on one team or another tend to have strong negative feelings toward the team they are not on. I am on Team Winchester, where there is no favorite brother........
I’ll be honest with you, Nate, this is the type of condescending, assumptive bull that turns people right off posting. You assume that because I said one thing, it means that I am one thing and because of that I can only think a certain thing and feel a certain way. Open your mind, Nate. We all think different things for different reasons, we all feel different ways for different reasons, we all bring different experiences to our viewing of the show. That doesn’t make us one thing or another.

However, to sate your mind, go back and read my comments from last season, or any of the seasons before that before you decide to cast your judgmental eye on what you've decided 'I am’.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-21 16:11
Quote:
it's clear you are team Sam, but people on one team or another tend to have strong negative feelings toward the team they are not on. I am on Team Winchester, where there is no favorite brother........
I’ll be honest with you, Nate, this is the type of condescending, assumptive bull that turns people right off posting. You assume that because I said one thing, it means that I am one thing and because of that I can only think a certain thing and feel a certain way. Open your mind, Nate. We all think different things for different reasons, we all feel different ways for different reasons, we all bring different experiences to our viewing of the show. That doesn’t make us one thing or another.

However, to sate your mind, go back and read my comments from last season, or any of the seasons before that before you decide to cast your judgmental eye on what you've decided 'I am’.
st50
# st50 2013-11-21 16:24
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.

#64 and 66 - Nate... Judgment and sarcasm bordering on condescension are also unappreciated. Especially coming from a writer on the site. I could be wrong, but that's exactly what your posts read like to me. Sure doesn't make me want to contribute very much.

I thought everyone's opinion was valued on a site like this, assuming it was politely stated. And what does it matter which character a poster identifies with - or doesn't?? Are we not all unique individuals with individual likes and dislikes?
st50
# st50 2013-11-21 16:24
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.

#64 and 66 - Nate... Judgment and sarcasm bordering on condescension are also unappreciated. Especially coming from a writer on the site. I could be wrong, but that's exactly what your posts read like to me. Sure doesn't make me want to contribute very much.

I thought everyone's opinion was valued on a site like this, assuming it was politely stated. And what does it matter which character a poster identifies with - or doesn't?? Are we not all unique individuals with individual likes and dislikes?
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 16:37
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
Quote:
it's clear you are team Sam, but people on one team or another tend to have strong negative feelings toward the team they are not on. I am on Team Winchester, where there is no favorite brother........
I’ll be honest with you, Nate, this is the type of condescending, assumptive bull that turns people right off posting. .
Tim and st50,
If you take my comments as condescending, I truely apologize. I do not mean them to "sound" that way.
Tim--from the comments in your post, they were pro-Sam. I have commented MANY times I am on "Team Winchester" with no favorite brother. There are so many reviews here where it is clear the member is "team Sam" or "team Dean." I mean no judgement with who one favors or not, I just was pointing out, for my following comments, I don't favor one or the other. I have read your comments from last season and this season, and always like your input. This episode you were aggressive toward Dean, and I was countering that--that's all, I was giving my opinion. I would say it was an easy assumption to say in your comments, you were team Sam.
st50--Sarcasm is a friend of mine, but not in a MEAN way. That's not who I am. I re-read my post, and there is not an ounce of judgement there. I disagreed with Tim, but that is not judging Tim by listing my point of view. I read lots of comments here that seem very angry and snarky. I know this is not the place to respond to personal attacks, but if I'm sworn at and blamed for people like me turning others off to this site, and being called condesending and judgemental, I won't stand for that.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-21 16:37
Quote:
Quote:
it's clear you are team Sam, but people on one team or another tend to have strong negative feelings toward the team they are not on. I am on Team Winchester, where there is no favorite brother........
I’ll be honest with you, Nate, this is the type of condescending, assumptive bull that turns people right off posting. .
Tim and st50,
If you take my comments as condescending, I truely apologize. I do not mean them to "sound" that way.
Tim--from the comments in your post, they were pro-Sam. I have commented MANY times I am on "Team Winchester" with no favorite brother. There are so many reviews here where it is clear the member is "team Sam" or "team Dean." I mean no judgement with who one favors or not, I just was pointing out, for my following comments, I don't favor one or the other. I have read your comments from last season and this season, and always like your input. This episode you were aggressive toward Dean, and I was countering that--that's all, I was giving my opinion. I would say it was an easy assumption to say in your comments, you were team Sam.
st50--Sarcasm is a friend of mine, but not in a MEAN way. That's not who I am. I re-read my post, and there is not an ounce of judgement there. I disagreed with Tim, but that is not judging Tim by listing my point of view. I read lots of comments here that seem very angry and snarky. I know this is not the place to respond to personal attacks, but if I'm sworn at and blamed for people like me turning others off to this site, and being called condesending and judgemental, I won't stand for that.
alice
# alice 2013-11-21 16:38
st50, the Nate who commented on the site is not the same Nate who writes for us. Just FYI.

(Edited - It all seems to be a misunderstandin g. No warnings here. Just calm down the accusations a bit.)
Alice
# Alice 2013-11-21 16:38
st50, the Nate who commented on the site is not the same Nate who writes for us. Just FYI.

(Edited - It all seems to be a misunderstandin g. No warnings here. Just calm down the accusations a bit.)
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-21 17:04
Quoting st50:
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.


Oh, I didn't mean I'm certain she won't be disapointed. Whatever happens, some will be happy, and some will be unhappy, and it is ok. I just said there is no point in suffering now for a disapointment that might never come for her.

On the other hand, I believe this show CANNOT have been all the way, since the beginning, a bad experience for anyone here. Otherwise, we wouldn't be commenting season 9. And if I'm wrong, then please allow me to point out to such person that you have a serious personal issue going on. Take care of yourself!
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-21 17:04
Quote:
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.
Oh, I didn't mean I'm certain she won't be disapointed. Whatever happens, some will be happy, and some will be unhappy, and it is ok. I just said there is no point in suffering now for a disapointment that might never come for her.

On the other hand, I believe this show CANNOT have been all the way, since the beginning, a bad experience for anyone here. Otherwise, we wouldn't be commenting season 9. And if I'm wrong, then please allow me to point out to such person that you have a serious personal issue going on. Take care of yourself!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-21 18:00
@65 Ale, I gave my reasons for not liking the episode in my comment, and they amounted to much more than just being concerned about something that might happen in the future. They are concerned with what is happening now, and what has been happening all season.

And I am perfectly ‘chill’, thank you. However, Ale, if everyone waited to the ‘end of the story’ to make a comment, it would make for a frightfully quiet site, would it not??

@71. I’m not sure if this comment is also directed at me so I’m going to reply to it, just in case. The show has not been a bad experience for me from the start. I’m not so masochistic that I would continue to watch a show if it bothered me that much, and for that length of time. For the most part I enjoy the show and its characters. I think I was one of the few posters on here who really liked Amelia (and am possibly the only poster who would not be averse to her coming back). I saw (or I think I saw) what the showrunners were (hopefully) trying to do with the Sam not looking for Dean storyline and spent quite a few words on here discussing it in the positive. So no, the show has not been a bad experience for me. This season, and this episode, for the reasons that I stated, have been.
.
@69 Nate, I looked back over the comment and I mentioned Dean three times; one was to list all the things that he had sacrificed for Sam, the second was to detail the guilt etc he felt and the third was to comment that he was critical of Sam for wanting to leave hunting (and he has been. I can give you umpteen quotes in the morning, if you want). If that is aggressive then let me assure you that I have been a lot more aggressive toward every other character on the show at numerous times in the past few years.

May I ask, how can wanting both brothers to be considered equally when it comes to the exploration and explanation of their actions and character be considered pro-one brother??

In truth, Nate, your declaration (or anyone’s declaration) that they favour neither brother can be countered by anyone who wants to. For example, you said that you hope that when Sam finds out about Ezekiel he will say "Thank you" and go to read "The Marvelous Land of Oz.". It would be very easy to assume that is an anti-Sam comment because surely if you valued Sam as a character you would want him to show some emotion, want him to have enough worth in himself that he feels he can be entitled to be hurt etc by what Dean did. (I’m not saying your comment is, I’m just using it as an example as to how reader perception can lead to a certain interpretation) . If I said, ‘I hope Sam lets Dean know how much his actions hurt him’ that could easily be interpreted as an anti-Dean comment because why would a Dean fan want to see Dean upset?

It's (unfortunately) as easy as that!
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-21 18:00
@65 Ale, I gave my reasons for not liking the episode in my comment, and they amounted to much more than just being concerned about something that might happen in the future. They are concerned with what is happening now, and what has been happening all season.

And I am perfectly ‘chill’, thank you. However, Ale, if everyone waited to the ‘end of the story’ to make a comment, it would make for a frightfully quiet site, would it not??

@71. I’m not sure if this comment is also directed at me so I’m going to reply to it, just in case. The show has not been a bad experience for me from the start. I’m not so masochistic that I would continue to watch a show if it bothered me that much, and for that length of time. For the most part I enjoy the show and its characters. I think I was one of the few posters on here who really liked Amelia (and am possibly the only poster who would not be averse to her coming back). I saw (or I think I saw) what the showrunners were (hopefully) trying to do with the Sam not looking for Dean storyline and spent quite a few words on here discussing it in the positive. So no, the show has not been a bad experience for me. This season, and this episode, for the reasons that I stated, have been.
.
@69 Nate, I looked back over the comment and I mentioned Dean three times; one was to list all the things that he had sacrificed for Sam, the second was to detail the guilt etc he felt and the third was to comment that he was critical of Sam for wanting to leave hunting (and he has been. I can give you umpteen quotes in the morning, if you want). If that is aggressive then let me assure you that I have been a lot more aggressive toward every other character on the show at numerous times in the past few years.

May I ask, how can wanting both brothers to be considered equally when it comes to the exploration and explanation of their actions and character be considered pro-one brother??

In truth, Nate, your declaration (or anyone’s declaration) that they favour neither brother can be countered by anyone who wants to. For example, you said that you hope that when Sam finds out about Ezekiel he will say "Thank you" and go to read "The Marvelous Land of Oz.". It would be very easy to assume that is an anti-Sam comment because surely if you valued Sam as a character you would want him to show some emotion, want him to have enough worth in himself that he feels he can be entitled to be hurt etc by what Dean did. (I’m not saying your comment is, I’m just using it as an example as to how reader perception can lead to a certain interpretation) . If I said, ‘I hope Sam lets Dean know how much his actions hurt him’ that could easily be interpreted as an anti-Dean comment because why would a Dean fan want to see Dean upset?

It's (unfortunately) as easy as that!
tigerlily2
# tigerlily2 2013-11-21 19:29
Alice, I appreciate your honest review and I feel the same as you in a lot of ways. At this point, I don't think I can ever quit this show. For better or worse, I'm here until the end. But I feel sort of schizophrenic about it. I love the episode because I've seen it before. It hit all the familiar notes. At the same time, I am impatient with it. It's not the little canon "adjustments" that bug me - I really can let those go. What bugs me is what Tim explained so beautifully. It feels manipulative, as if we are being set up. Like we need to be reminded again how much Dean loves Sam before the poo hits the fan?

Tim, please don't even stop posting. Your comments are soul-soothing to some of us.
tigerlily2
# tigerlily2 2013-11-21 19:29
Alice, I appreciate your honest review and I feel the same as you in a lot of ways. At this point, I don't think I can ever quit this show. For better or worse, I'm here until the end. But I feel sort of schizophrenic about it. I love the episode because I've seen it before. It hit all the familiar notes. At the same time, I am impatient with it. It's not the little canon "adjustments" that bug me - I really can let those go. What bugs me is what Tim explained so beautifully. It feels manipulative, as if we are being set up. Like we need to be reminded again how much Dean loves Sam before the poo hits the fan?

Tim, please don't even stop posting. Your comments are soul-soothing to some of us.
E
# E 2013-11-21 21:30
Re: Tim's post #62. Hi Tim,
I just wanted to say that I agree whole heartedly with your post on this episode. As I have stated on this thread and elsewhere, I really disliked the completely illogical set up of this episode, but you have also hit upon another aspect that I also didn't like which was the air of manipulation that I sensed was going on. "Don't forget how much Dean has sacrificed for Sam going back YEARS folks, when the proverbial shit hits the fan." It seemed as though in the PTB's attempt to make sure that we aren't too harsh with Dean for what he's done to Sam, that they are in the process of negating everything Sam might end up feeling and painting him as unjustified before the situation even comes to a head. It's the Mentalist all over again in the making only worse.

And about the POV, you couldn't be more right. How many times have we seen Dean make a sacrifice or been reminded of the lengths he will go to for Sam in this season alone? How many times have we been reminded of how much Dean is agonizing over the choices he's made? In every single episode to date. Conversely, how many times have we heard from Sam his views on how he feels about being possessed, or how hard it is for him when his life is taken out of his control? Or how much he doesn't want to be used as a tool against his will? Once, in the first episode when he was talking to Death and trying one last time, even at the edge of the grave, to somehow keep control of his affect on the world and to keep from hurting anyone. This is seriously imbalanced IMO; how can anyone sympathize with Sam's POV when he isn't even really represented any more? Sam is a major character, but we know more about what Castiel, Kevin, Zeke, Charlie and Crowley are thinking or wanting then we do about Sam.

This is not intended to be a "let's bash Dean" post. I love Dean to pieces and his POV has been very lovingly and THOROUGHLY represented so far this season in the writing and I understand completely what he did, why he did it, and I understand his motivations completely. This is not a criticism of Dean or his motivations, which make perfect sense; I mean, Sam is alive, what could be wrong with that? It's more about the total lack of detail and explanation for the other side of the equation that is getting to me here. What about Sam's motivations that depict why he feels the way he feels? While we are getting anvils dropped on our heads about what motivates Dean to do what he did, why are we not getting similar anvils that describe why Sam might have a problem with Dean's decisions? Each brother is going to have perfectly justifiable reasons for their actions, why are we only seeing Dean's side? Why has there been no back story about Sam being the focus of the YED or about being manipulated by Ruby? What about some POV regarding the time Sam was taken over by Meg and made to kill Steve Wandell? Or some discussion from Sam about all of the time he spent (180 YEARS!!) with Lucifer inside of him and how soul crushingly awful that was for him, to give us insight into why Sam might disagree or be justifiably angry with what Dean has done to him? Currently (again!) its a one sided story, and I am tired of only seeing that one, incomplete side.
E
# E 2013-11-21 21:30
Re: Tim's post #62. Hi Tim,
I just wanted to say that I agree whole heartedly with your post on this episode. As I have stated on this thread and elsewhere, I really disliked the completely illogical set up of this episode, but you have also hit upon another aspect that I also didn't like which was the air of manipulation that I sensed was going on. "Don't forget how much Dean has sacrificed for Sam going back YEARS folks, when the proverbial shit hits the fan." It seemed as though in the PTB's attempt to make sure that we aren't too harsh with Dean for what he's done to Sam, that they are in the process of negating everything Sam might end up feeling and painting him as unjustified before the situation even comes to a head. It's the Mentalist all over again in the making only worse.

And about the POV, you couldn't be more right. How many times have we seen Dean make a sacrifice or been reminded of the lengths he will go to for Sam in this season alone? How many times have we been reminded of how much Dean is agonizing over the choices he's made? In every single episode to date. Conversely, how many times have we heard from Sam his views on how he feels about being possessed, or how hard it is for him when his life is taken out of his control? Or how much he doesn't want to be used as a tool against his will? Once, in the first episode when he was talking to Death and trying one last time, even at the edge of the grave, to somehow keep control of his affect on the world and to keep from hurting anyone. This is seriously imbalanced IMO; how can anyone sympathize with Sam's POV when he isn't even really represented any more? Sam is a major character, but we know more about what Castiel, Kevin, Zeke, Charlie and Crowley are thinking or wanting then we do about Sam.

This is not intended to be a "let's bash Dean" post. I love Dean to pieces and his POV has been very lovingly and THOROUGHLY represented so far this season in the writing and I understand completely what he did, why he did it, and I understand his motivations completely. This is not a criticism of Dean or his motivations, which make perfect sense; I mean, Sam is alive, what could be wrong with that? It's more about the total lack of detail and explanation for the other side of the equation that is getting to me here. What about Sam's motivations that depict why he feels the way he feels? While we are getting anvils dropped on our heads about what motivates Dean to do what he did, why are we not getting similar anvils that describe why Sam might have a problem with Dean's decisions? Each brother is going to have perfectly justifiable reasons for their actions, why are we only seeing Dean's side? Why has there been no back story about Sam being the focus of the YED or about being manipulated by Ruby? What about some POV regarding the time Sam was taken over by Meg and made to kill Steve Wandell? Or some discussion from Sam about all of the time he spent (180 YEARS!!) with Lucifer inside of him and how soul crushingly awful that was for him, to give us insight into why Sam might disagree or be justifiably angry with what Dean has done to him? Currently (again!) its a one sided story, and I am tired of only seeing that one, incomplete side.
st50
# st50 2013-11-21 21:39
E - I've been postulating elsewhere (mostly jokingly) about the reason we've had NOTHING from Sam....

You see, in our theory, Zeke is actually very similar to Ruby 2.0.. He actually wanted access to an empty vessel, and chose an extremely strong, and proven angel vessel inwhich the owner was very near death, and had in fact resigned himself to that fate...

Sam is actually still on the verge of dying, and absolutely UNABLE to give us any honest reaction to anything.
st50
# st50 2013-11-21 21:39
E - I've been postulating elsewhere (mostly jokingly) about the reason we've had NOTHING from Sam....

You see, in our theory, Zeke is actually very similar to Ruby 2.0.. He actually wanted access to an empty vessel, and chose an extremely strong, and proven angel vessel inwhich the owner was very near death, and had in fact resigned himself to that fate...

Sam is actually still on the verge of dying, and absolutely UNABLE to give us any honest reaction to anything.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-21 22:16
Quoting E:
I mean, Sam is alive, what could be wrong with that? It's more about the total lack of detail and explanation for the other side of the equation that is getting to me here. What about Sam's motivations that depict why he feels the way he feels? While we are getting anvils dropped on our heads about what motivates Dean to do what he did, why are we not getting similar anvils that describe why Sam might have a problem with Dean's decisions? Currently (again!) its a one sided story, and I am tired of only seeing that one, incomplete side.

Quote:
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.
Well the way i see it is that next week has an episode which
a) sets Sam up with the only non-enemy character since Ellen died that Sam has ever been allowed to bond with (with the possible exception of Kevin)
b)Removes Dean from the equation
If the show can't, with that scenario, come up with some POV for Sam (that isn't 4 iterations of, 'I just don't feel settled here, what can I say?') then after a season and a third of this I really think that will clarify where the emphasis of the show has gone and how the mid-season is going to play out.

I almost feel in mourning for Sam, I miss him terribly - and I love what Jared is doing with Zeke, he is an excellent character - but that is a different issue.

To those of you that are happy with the feels of the last episode, it is because there is this sense of loss on my/our side that we are having a hard time being happy with you. Dean having feels for a character we haven't seen since the middle of season 7 just feels odd.

The main reason 'Sam' is still even here as a ghost is because Jared puts everything into whatever he gets to work with - and like the end of the last episode - he gives it a depth and emotion that the episode just didn't seem to earn.

I know this is an over-the-top interpretation but there is an assumption that not being happy with the Dean feels and point of view means not liking Dean. it couldn't be further from the truth. But if the next episode was Dean in a mental hospital and he was told he was there because he keeps talking to a brother who died years ago that wouldn't be a surprising twist at all.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-21 22:16
Quote:
I mean, Sam is alive, what could be wrong with that? It's more about the total lack of detail and explanation for the other side of the equation that is getting to me here. What about Sam's motivations that depict why he feels the way he feels? While we are getting anvils dropped on our heads about what motivates Dean to do what he did, why are we not getting similar anvils that describe why Sam might have a problem with Dean's decisions? Currently (again!) its a one sided story, and I am tired of only seeing that one, incomplete side.
Quote:
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.
Well the way i see it is that next week has an episode which
a) sets Sam up with the only non-enemy character since Ellen died that Sam has ever been allowed to bond with (with the possible exception of Kevin)
b)Removes Dean from the equation
If the show can't, with that scenario, come up with some POV for Sam (that isn't 4 iterations of, 'I just don't feel settled here, what can I say?') then after a season and a third of this I really think that will clarify where the emphasis of the show has gone and how the mid-season is going to play out.

I almost feel in mourning for Sam, I miss him terribly - and I love what Jared is doing with Zeke, he is an excellent character - but that is a different issue.

To those of you that are happy with the feels of the last episode, it is because there is this sense of loss on my/our side that we are having a hard time being happy with you. Dean having feels for a character we haven't seen since the middle of season 7 just feels odd.

The main reason 'Sam' is still even here as a ghost is because Jared puts everything into whatever he gets to work with - and like the end of the last episode - he gives it a depth and emotion that the episode just didn't seem to earn.

I know this is an over-the-top interpretation but there is an assumption that not being happy with the Dean feels and point of view means not liking Dean. it couldn't be further from the truth. But if the next episode was Dean in a mental hospital and he was told he was there because he keeps talking to a brother who died years ago that wouldn't be a surprising twist at all.
E
# E 2013-11-21 22:38
Quoting st50:
E - I've been postulating elsewhere (mostly jokingly) about the reason we've had NOTHING from Sam....

You see, in our theory, Zeke is actually very similar to Ruby 2.0.. He actually wanted access to an empty vessel, and chose an extremely strong, and proven angel vessel inwhich the owner was very near death, and had in fact resigned himself to that fate...

Sam is actually still on the verge of dying, and absolutely UNABLE to give us any honest reaction to anything.


Oy… it's pretty scary to think that TPTB could actually very easily run with this story version. There is so little of Sam left, that what we are seeing could easily be attributed to shadows and remnants of Sam being manipulated by Zeke; maybe he's not there at all anymore. :cry:
E
# E 2013-11-21 22:38
Quote:
E - I've been postulating elsewhere (mostly jokingly) about the reason we've had NOTHING from Sam....

You see, in our theory, Zeke is actually very similar to Ruby 2.0.. He actually wanted access to an empty vessel, and chose an extremely strong, and proven angel vessel inwhich the owner was very near death, and had in fact resigned himself to that fate...

Sam is actually still on the verge of dying, and absolutely UNABLE to give us any honest reaction to anything.
Oy… it's pretty scary to think that TPTB could actually very easily run with this story version. There is so little of Sam left, that what we are seeing could easily be attributed to shadows and remnants of Sam being manipulated by Zeke; maybe he's not there at all anymore. :cry:
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-22 00:26
Tim I want to tell you that I agree with your posts, especially #62 and 72. I too feel that this episode is setting up the absolution of Dean for what he did to Sam in regard to Zeke. We are now 7 episodes in and all the "feels" we have are Dean's. Dean is guilty, Dean is worried. Dean sacrifices everything for Sam. If this had been shown in it's original slot I would have had hope that there would be time for an episode truly delving into Sam's mindset. It has been suggested that Jodie being in the next episode gives us the best chance for a Sam POV, since she is one of the few characters who will actually talk to and listen to Sam. So I am not totally without hope that we will get some insight into Sam. However, currently the edit I see is leaning toward why Sam is a horrible person unless he tells Dean everything is hunky dory, he's fine with Dean making unilateral decisions about Sam's life, his body and his mental health.

Quote:
From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation...
This is pretty manipulative from a whole lot of perspectives. It places the blame on SAM for Dean being arrested and abandoned by John. The entire implication is that if it had been up to Dean he would have gutted it out, not stolen food and taken sustenance from John's approval when he returned, but weak, needy, selfish Sam just insisted on being horribly demanding and actually expected to EAT for the next few weeks. Dean makes Sam needing to eat to survive a burden on Dean. The show has Dean tell us that without Sam, he would never have stolen food.

Quote:
we’ve seen the Sam learns something new about his brother and both acknowledges and appreciates him all the more for it numerous times.
When, if ever, will we get a Dean learns something about SAM and then acknowledges that Sam has feelings and thoughts that are not exact duplicates of Dean's? Even in the Oz episode when Sam stated that the MOL bunker isn't home it's his job, Dean didn't come to understand that. Sam had to give the "there's no place like home" line, so that we and Dean know that Sam is moving toward Dean's way of thinking and is yet again moving farther away from his own feelings, needs and dreams. And the show presents Sam sublimating who he is as a GOOD thing.

Which brings me to a real question. Zeke has inhabited Sam for quite a while now. When Sam finds out and if Zeke says Sam is sufficiently healed and leaves, could Zeke simply fake leaving? Could he push Sam down the way Lucifer did? The way Cas did to Jimmy and Michael did to Adam and the way Raphael, Gabriel Zachariah and every other angel has done to THEIR vessels? After having time to comb through Sam's mind, can Zeke mimic Sam? And as long as Sam is being intelligent, going along with the hunt, not being friends with anyone other than Dean, will Dean even notice the difference? For all of Dean's "I know the kid better than he knows himself", Dean has been fooled before. He didn't pick up on Meg possessing Sam. He took quite a while to pick up on Gary switching bodies with Sam in Swap Meat, it took the Goddess of Truth to clue him onto the fact that Sam was what turned out to be soulless. I think that could be a real issue at some point.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-22 00:26
Tim I want to tell you that I agree with your posts, especially #62 and 72. I too feel that this episode is setting up the absolution of Dean for what he did to Sam in regard to Zeke. We are now 7 episodes in and all the "feels" we have are Dean's. Dean is guilty, Dean is worried. Dean sacrifices everything for Sam. If this had been shown in it's original slot I would have had hope that there would be time for an episode truly delving into Sam's mindset. It has been suggested that Jodie being in the next episode gives us the best chance for a Sam POV, since she is one of the few characters who will actually talk to and listen to Sam. So I am not totally without hope that we will get some insight into Sam. However, currently the edit I see is leaning toward why Sam is a horrible person unless he tells Dean everything is hunky dory, he's fine with Dean making unilateral decisions about Sam's life, his body and his mental health.

Quote:
From the moment Dean said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’, 9.07 was pure manipulation...
This is pretty manipulative from a whole lot of perspectives. It places the blame on SAM for Dean being arrested and abandoned by John. The entire implication is that if it had been up to Dean he would have gutted it out, not stolen food and taken sustenance from John's approval when he returned, but weak, needy, selfish Sam just insisted on being horribly demanding and actually expected to EAT for the next few weeks. Dean makes Sam needing to eat to survive a burden on Dean. The show has Dean tell us that without Sam, he would never have stolen food.

Quote:
we’ve seen the Sam learns something new about his brother and both acknowledges and appreciates him all the more for it numerous times.
When, if ever, will we get a Dean learns something about SAM and then acknowledges that Sam has feelings and thoughts that are not exact duplicates of Dean's? Even in the Oz episode when Sam stated that the MOL bunker isn't home it's his job, Dean didn't come to understand that. Sam had to give the "there's no place like home" line, so that we and Dean know that Sam is moving toward Dean's way of thinking and is yet again moving farther away from his own feelings, needs and dreams. And the show presents Sam sublimating who he is as a GOOD thing.

Which brings me to a real question. Zeke has inhabited Sam for quite a while now. When Sam finds out and if Zeke says Sam is sufficiently healed and leaves, could Zeke simply fake leaving? Could he push Sam down the way Lucifer did? The way Cas did to Jimmy and Michael did to Adam and the way Raphael, Gabriel Zachariah and every other angel has done to THEIR vessels? After having time to comb through Sam's mind, can Zeke mimic Sam? And as long as Sam is being intelligent, going along with the hunt, not being friends with anyone other than Dean, will Dean even notice the difference? For all of Dean's "I know the kid better than he knows himself", Dean has been fooled before. He didn't pick up on Meg possessing Sam. He took quite a while to pick up on Gary switching bodies with Sam in Swap Meat, it took the Goddess of Truth to clue him onto the fact that Sam was what turned out to be soulless. I think that could be a real issue at some point.
leah d
# leah d 2013-11-22 00:52
Quoting percysowner " It places the blame on SAM for Dean being arrested and abandoned by John. The entire implication is that if it had been up to Dean he would have gutted it out, not stolen food and taken sustenance from John's approval when he returned, but weak, needy, selfish Sam just insisted on being horribly demanding and actually expected to EAT for the next few weeks. Dean makes Sam needing to eat to survive a burden on Dean. The show has Dean tell us that without Sam, he would never have stolen food"

I don't think this is what the show was saying at all! It was made pretty clear that Dean did a stupid thing by gambling and another stupid thing by shoplifting! The fact that he did it to get food for Sam was not shown as a heroic thing or that Sam was the cause of his stupidly. Of course this is my opinion only but I strongly feel that Sam, as a child, was not being blamed (in a clever manipulation) by the show for Dean's actions.
leah d
# leah d 2013-11-22 00:52
Quoting percysowner " It places the blame on SAM for Dean being arrested and abandoned by John. The entire implication is that if it had been up to Dean he would have gutted it out, not stolen food and taken sustenance from John's approval when he returned, but weak, needy, selfish Sam just insisted on being horribly demanding and actually expected to EAT for the next few weeks. Dean makes Sam needing to eat to survive a burden on Dean. The show has Dean tell us that without Sam, he would never have stolen food"

I don't think this is what the show was saying at all! It was made pretty clear that Dean did a stupid thing by gambling and another stupid thing by shoplifting! The fact that he did it to get food for Sam was not shown as a heroic thing or that Sam was the cause of his stupidly. Of course this is my opinion only but I strongly feel that Sam, as a child, was not being blamed (in a clever manipulation) by the show for Dean's actions.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-11-22 06:47
I felt like Dean took full responsibility for what he did, as well. I don't think it insinuated in any way that Dean was sacrificing for Sam or Sam was the only one who needed to eat. Dean chose his family, like he always does. I think he just smiled because he was glad to see his brother.

Also, it seems like some people say they want Sam's POV but when he does say something they disagree with what he says and blame Dean for forcing Sam to have that point of view.

IMO this examining of every word in every sentence and looking for clues of writer's manipulation is a little over the top.
Prix68
# Prix68 2013-11-22 06:47
I felt like Dean took full responsibility for what he did, as well. I don't think it insinuated in any way that Dean was sacrificing for Sam or Sam was the only one who needed to eat. Dean chose his family, like he always does. I think he just smiled because he was glad to see his brother.

Also, it seems like some people say they want Sam's POV but when he does say something they disagree with what he says and blame Dean for forcing Sam to have that point of view.

IMO this examining of every word in every sentence and looking for clues of writer's manipulation is a little over the top.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-11-22 07:18
I meant to say "or that Sam was the cause of his stupidity" in my comment @79.

On the other hand I can't see Dean letting Sam go hungry because of his bad choices!! Was it done to place blame on young Sam? No IMO. The blame and consequences fell on Dean.
LEAH
# LEAH 2013-11-22 07:18
I meant to say "or that Sam was the cause of his stupidity" in my comment @79.

On the other hand I can't see Dean letting Sam go hungry because of his bad choices!! Was it done to place blame on young Sam? No IMO. The blame and consequences fell on Dean.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-22 07:29
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
Nate, I looked back over the comment ....May I ask, how can wanting both brothers to be considered equally when it comes to the exploration and explanation of their actions and character be considered pro-one brother?? In truth, Nate, your declaration (or anyone’s declaration) that they favour neither brother can be countered by anyone who wants to. For example, you said that you hope that when Sam finds out about Ezekiel he will say "Thank you" and go to read "The Marvelous Land of Oz.". It would be very easy to assume that is an anti-Sam comment because surely if you valued Sam as a character you would want him to show some emotion, want him to have enough worth in himself that he feels he can be entitled to be hurt etc by what Dean did. (I’m not saying your comment is, I’m just using it as an example as to how reader perception can lead to a certain interpretation). If I said, ‘I hope Sam lets Dean know how much his actions hurt him’ that could easily be interpreted as an anti-Dean comment because why would a Dean fan want to see Dean upset? It's (unfortunately) as easy as that!

@Tim, I do feel the brothers are equally explored and explained. I always have. When anyone makes comments stating one brother is not given the same amount of coverage, I simply don’t share that opinion. There is nothing you can say to change that opinion,and vice versa. Wanting Sam to not react (or overreact) when the Zeke plot is revealed, for me, would be a bigger shock than if he goes off on Dean. A big fight is what I expect to happen, it may be perceived by TBTB as the better TV sweeps way to go, but I think it would throw the viewers for a loop, and truly shock me, if Sam understood Dean was using Zeke to save Sam’s life, and there is no big blowout, or a limited blow out ending with Sam understanding. I don't want another dragged out conflict with the brothers.

@Ale, I am hoping for the nice surprise too, but as I said we expect the reveal to be a sweeps moment….
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-22 07:29
Quote:
Nate, I looked back over the comment ....May I ask, how can wanting both brothers to be considered equally when it comes to the exploration and explanation of their actions and character be considered pro-one brother?? In truth, Nate, your declaration (or anyone’s declaration) that they favour neither brother can be countered by anyone who wants to. For example, you said that you hope that when Sam finds out about Ezekiel he will say "Thank you" and go to read "The Marvelous Land of Oz.". It would be very easy to assume that is an anti-Sam comment because surely if you valued Sam as a character you would want him to show some emotion, want him to have enough worth in himself that he feels he can be entitled to be hurt etc by what Dean did. (I’m not saying your comment is, I’m just using it as an example as to how reader perception can lead to a certain interpretation). If I said, ‘I hope Sam lets Dean know how much his actions hurt him’ that could easily be interpreted as an anti-Dean comment because why would a Dean fan want to see Dean upset? It's (unfortunately) as easy as that!
@Tim, I do feel the brothers are equally explored and explained. I always have. When anyone makes comments stating one brother is not given the same amount of coverage, I simply don’t share that opinion. There is nothing you can say to change that opinion,and vice versa. Wanting Sam to not react (or overreact) when the Zeke plot is revealed, for me, would be a bigger shock than if he goes off on Dean. A big fight is what I expect to happen, it may be perceived by TBTB as the better TV sweeps way to go, but I think it would throw the viewers for a loop, and truly shock me, if Sam understood Dean was using Zeke to save Sam’s life, and there is no big blowout, or a limited blow out ending with Sam understanding. I don't want another dragged out conflict with the brothers.

@Ale, I am hoping for the nice surprise too, but as I said we expect the reveal to be a sweeps moment….
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-22 08:17
What Dean has done to Sam is not something I believe should be quickly got out of the way , there is more going on with this than Sam should see that Dean was doing it to save him and for the very reason for this episode that Sam should remember what sacrifices Dean has made . Some may not see that has manipulation that is fair enough but others do .

I have given my reasons why I think this episode was unfair to Sam and how he will feel finding out about Ezekiel . Dean stole Sam's autonomy and I don't think that should be brushed away because there is a Sam in all of this , not just how, why and when with Dean but that is just me.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-22 08:17
What Dean has done to Sam is not something I believe should be quickly got out of the way , there is more going on with this than Sam should see that Dean was doing it to save him and for the very reason for this episode that Sam should remember what sacrifices Dean has made . Some may not see that has manipulation that is fair enough but others do .

I have given my reasons why I think this episode was unfair to Sam and how he will feel finding out about Ezekiel . Dean stole Sam's autonomy and I don't think that should be brushed away because there is a Sam in all of this , not just how, why and when with Dean but that is just me.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-11-22 08:32
@24 Cheryl142
Sorry only getting back to you now! crazy times lifting school kids to and from boarding school during exams. Hectic when said boys forget VERY IMPORTANT maths calculators at home when they are needed 150km away at school. Now where is Castiel when you need him eh!!!

I was up to my eyeballs with all the canon bashing irritation out there that day! so no I was probably over reacting. I have managed to find a few other sites, and just got heartily sick of the minute nitpicking some of the fans do over the show. One fan was taking issue with the fact that 'Dean' didn't have green eyes. Come on! IMO he did such a great job as Dean and this is what you notice!!!

Anyway now that I have seen other sites, I realise just how much this site is Sam friendly, but boy oh boy, I think it is a respite. Sam friendly is basically bro friendly. However, what I really miss from this show is the debate that goes two and fro on other sites. It can be a bloodbath, but some posters are really good and I am enjoying the fierce debate that they generate. I would really like to be able to discuss freely here, but am a little nervous to do so. One site has 'Dean is a Dick, as a thread, with something like 90 responders, it makes for VERY entertaining discussion. I would like to see more of that here.

Dean is getting a lot of flack at the moment and 'Dean is a Dick' seems to be the battle cry, which makes me sad considering we only have about 1 1/2 years left of this show, and that's if we are lucky and they renew it next year!!!!

I basically don't have the authority to debate this ep as I haven't watched it yet.
kaz1
# kaz1 2013-11-22 08:32
@24 Cheryl142
Sorry only getting back to you now! crazy times lifting school kids to and from boarding school during exams. Hectic when said boys forget VERY IMPORTANT maths calculators at home when they are needed 150km away at school. Now where is Castiel when you need him eh!!!

I was up to my eyeballs with all the canon bashing irritation out there that day! so no I was probably over reacting. I have managed to find a few other sites, and just got heartily sick of the minute nitpicking some of the fans do over the show. One fan was taking issue with the fact that 'Dean' didn't have green eyes. Come on! IMO he did such a great job as Dean and this is what you notice!!!

Anyway now that I have seen other sites, I realise just how much this site is Sam friendly, but boy oh boy, I think it is a respite. Sam friendly is basically bro friendly. However, what I really miss from this show is the debate that goes two and fro on other sites. It can be a bloodbath, but some posters are really good and I am enjoying the fierce debate that they generate. I would really like to be able to discuss freely here, but am a little nervous to do so. One site has 'Dean is a Dick, as a thread, with something like 90 responders, it makes for VERY entertaining discussion. I would like to see more of that here.

Dean is getting a lot of flack at the moment and 'Dean is a Dick' seems to be the battle cry, which makes me sad considering we only have about 1 1/2 years left of this show, and that's if we are lucky and they renew it next year!!!!

I basically don't have the authority to debate this ep as I haven't watched it yet.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-22 08:47
Quoting Tim the Enchanter:
@65 Ale, I gave my reasons for not liking the episode in my comment, and they amounted to much more than just being concerned about something that might happen in the future. They are concerned with what is happening now, and what has been happening all season.

And I am perfectly ‘chill’, thank you. However, Ale, if everyone waited to the ‘end of the story’ to make a comment, it would make for a frightfully quiet site, would it not??

@71. I’m not sure if this comment is also directed at me so I’m going to reply to it, just in case. The show has not been a bad experience for me from the start. I’m not so masochistic that I would continue to watch a show if it bothered me that much, and for that length of time. For the most part I enjoy the show and its characters. I think I was one of the few posters on here who really liked Amelia (and am possibly the only poster who would not be averse to her coming back). I saw (or I think I saw) what the showrunners were (hopefully) trying to do with the Sam not looking for Dean storyline and spent quite a few words on here discussing it in the positive. So no, the show has not been a bad experience for me. This season, and this episode, for the reasons that I stated, have been.


First, I'm very glad you enjoyed the other seasons. And I'm glad you made an effort to understand the unpopular Amelia story. I didn't lke HER, but I liked the story and I also understand that through it the writers tried to convey Sam's state of mind and POV. Successfully for some, not so much by others - but it is not in discussion in here.

I understand you don't like the Zeke situation and you have every right to show you displeasure right now and be concerned about Sam. But what I was saying is that, like last year, there was a reason for those Amelia scenes, and the rest of the stories told (Benny, the Trials, etc.) since the beggining.

What I believe is that Carver is trying to address and resolve old issues between the boys. For me, last year was Sam finally letting Dean know that he loved him and needed Dean and he can't live with the thought that he disappointed Dean one more time, that he prefered to die instead (Fine, that's how I heard it ;-) ). And Dean reassuring Sam that he always loved Sam above all, trusted him as an equal to do the job (the Trials) and that all what happened before was forgotten (the "let it go" - I think he was telling that to Sam and himself).

To do that, Carver needed to dig up old issues (Ruby, demon blood) and put the boys in a sittuation where Dean felt betrayed by Sam (Sam not looking), but that wasn't really a betrayal of Sam, just his way of copping with Dean's death that wasn't a way Dean expected (like when Sam copped by seaking revenge and drinking demon blood).

So, I was thinking that maybe now Carver is trying to address the old issue of Dean, the control freak, and his paralising fear of loss, how he cannot cope with that (Cas, Charlie and, of course and first of all, Sam). And, also maybe, a lesson that Sam wanting to leave a situation that causes him pain, doesn't mean that he is leaving Dean, and that he doesn't love him. For that, Carver needs to dig up the origin of those feellings, hence, the Bad Boys episodes. Wanting to leave and yearning for better things for you, doesn't mean lack of love for the ones you left.

Of course, this is just especulation from my part. But what I was saying is, have some faith. It is ugly right now but maybe the show reserves for us something that might please you, not disappoint you.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-22 08:47
Quote:
@65 Ale, I gave my reasons for not liking the episode in my comment, and they amounted to much more than just being concerned about something that might happen in the future. They are concerned with what is happening now, and what has been happening all season.

And I am perfectly ‘chill’, thank you. However, Ale, if everyone waited to the ‘end of the story’ to make a comment, it would make for a frightfully quiet site, would it not??

@71. I’m not sure if this comment is also directed at me so I’m going to reply to it, just in case. The show has not been a bad experience for me from the start. I’m not so masochistic that I would continue to watch a show if it bothered me that much, and for that length of time. For the most part I enjoy the show and its characters. I think I was one of the few posters on here who really liked Amelia (and am possibly the only poster who would not be averse to her coming back). I saw (or I think I saw) what the showrunners were (hopefully) trying to do with the Sam not looking for Dean storyline and spent quite a few words on here discussing it in the positive. So no, the show has not been a bad experience for me. This season, and this episode, for the reasons that I stated, have been.
First, I'm very glad you enjoyed the other seasons. And I'm glad you made an effort to understand the unpopular Amelia story. I didn't lke HER, but I liked the story and I also understand that through it the writers tried to convey Sam's state of mind and POV. Successfully for some, not so much by others - but it is not in discussion in here.

I understand you don't like the Zeke situation and you have every right to show you displeasure right now and be concerned about Sam. But what I was saying is that, like last year, there was a reason for those Amelia scenes, and the rest of the stories told (Benny, the Trials, etc.) since the beggining.

What I believe is that Carver is trying to address and resolve old issues between the boys. For me, last year was Sam finally letting Dean know that he loved him and needed Dean and he can't live with the thought that he disappointed Dean one more time, that he prefered to die instead (Fine, that's how I heard it ;-) ). And Dean reassuring Sam that he always loved Sam above all, trusted him as an equal to do the job (the Trials) and that all what happened before was forgotten (the "let it go" - I think he was telling that to Sam and himself).

To do that, Carver needed to dig up old issues (Ruby, demon blood) and put the boys in a sittuation where Dean felt betrayed by Sam (Sam not looking), but that wasn't really a betrayal of Sam, just his way of copping with Dean's death that wasn't a way Dean expected (like when Sam copped by seaking revenge and drinking demon blood).

So, I was thinking that maybe now Carver is trying to address the old issue of Dean, the control freak, and his paralising fear of loss, how he cannot cope with that (Cas, Charlie and, of course and first of all, Sam). And, also maybe, a lesson that Sam wanting to leave a situation that causes him pain, doesn't mean that he is leaving Dean, and that he doesn't love him. For that, Carver needs to dig up the origin of those feellings, hence, the Bad Boys episodes. Wanting to leave and yearning for better things for you, doesn't mean lack of love for the ones you left.

Of course, this is just especulation from my part. But what I was saying is, have some faith. It is ugly right now but maybe the show reserves for us something that might please you, not disappoint you.
kristin
# kristin 2013-11-22 08:51
I didn't like this episode, on first viewing, but I didn't have the reaction some of you did. I don't agree that the whole season has been about absolving Dean of guilt for "saving" Sam by betraying him. In fact, I think much of the season has been showing us that even if Dean did it for the right reason, the most understandable reason, he's still going to pay a terrible price, maybe the ultimate price: he's going to lose Sam. I thought Dog Day Dean was a good example of showing (admittedly ham-handedly) playing God, regardless of the valor of your intentions, almost always goes horribly wrong. This episode did the same thing: the boy who kept the mom around because of his needs, and how that ended up being perverted and evil. IMO that was intended to show how wrong Dean's choice was, and again cautioned about the path he's walking on.

I think this episode was also intended to do two main things: to show how Dean's choices have always been to be close to Sam, and to set Sam up for a long, hard fall as he realizes how deceptive Dean's been. I didn't feel manipulated; rather I feel like the show is dangling me (and Dean, and Sam's vision of his brother) over a precipice.

Having said that, I absolutely agree that this season has been lacking in Sam POV. I think that's somewhat deliberate, because it serves the narrative this season, since it's difficult to get a true vision of Sam's brain since he's sharing it with someone else. Even when we do get into Sam's head, like when he talks about how he's feeling, it seems false, or inaccurate, since we know Zeke is in there, too. I'm really, really hoping that the show will focus as heavily on Sam's POV in reaction to Zeke and Dean's role in making him say "yes" to another entity.

I'm not overly optimistic, though; the show always seems to struggle with Sam's raison d'etre. Dean's is easy: his true north is Sam. When Sam's reason for living was Dean, in Season 3 and 4, or when his role was stopping the apocalypse in Season 5, he was so compelling and I feel like we got a great sense of his POV.

I get the feeling that the show is stuck on the "Dean wants to keep hunting, Sam wants to have a normal life" but doesn't know how to play that well; maybe, like they tend to do, they're holding it back for a big bang at the series finale. And the show totally dropped the ball by not exploring Sam's post-Lucifer, post-hell reaction, as well as how they played out the Amelia storyline. I liked the Sam we saw during the Trials; working toward an end that might do a lot of good, and finally, maybe, give Sam some peace. That was compelling. I hope the Zeke storyline gives us something similar.

I also agree that the show-runners have been unsuccessful in developing a season-long arc that flows well and is evenly paced across 23 episodes. Perhaps because the stories told in the first 5 seasons were, on the whole, cohesive with each other, and mostly well-paced across the season and even across the entirety of the entire series. This is especially true in the last three seasons. As much as I liked the 8th finale I kept wondering why we were rushing through everything packed into those 42 minutes instead of pacing it across two or three episodes? And this after the Amelia storyline, which despite all the hype/build up, seemed to flicker out and die. Perhaps again because the show struggles to make Sam's wish for a normal life compelling.

I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments at the detriment of a more evenly paced story. If they would stop working so hard at holding all their cards so they have a whiz-bang season finale, they would get a lot farther. It would also eliminate the need to show us over and over that, for example, Dean is lying, Sam is clueless/gettin g a clue, and Dean does everything because he wants to be with Sam. I'm sure the King of Hell storyline will be a corker; I'm sure getting the Angels back to heaven will be amazing. I know Sam's reaction to Dean's deal with Zeke will be epic. I just hope we get somewhere soon.
kristin
# kristin 2013-11-22 08:51
I didn't like this episode, on first viewing, but I didn't have the reaction some of you did. I don't agree that the whole season has been about absolving Dean of guilt for "saving" Sam by betraying him. In fact, I think much of the season has been showing us that even if Dean did it for the right reason, the most understandable reason, he's still going to pay a terrible price, maybe the ultimate price: he's going to lose Sam. I thought Dog Day Dean was a good example of showing (admittedly ham-handedly) playing God, regardless of the valor of your intentions, almost always goes horribly wrong. This episode did the same thing: the boy who kept the mom around because of his needs, and how that ended up being perverted and evil. IMO that was intended to show how wrong Dean's choice was, and again cautioned about the path he's walking on.

I think this episode was also intended to do two main things: to show how Dean's choices have always been to be close to Sam, and to set Sam up for a long, hard fall as he realizes how deceptive Dean's been. I didn't feel manipulated; rather I feel like the show is dangling me (and Dean, and Sam's vision of his brother) over a precipice.

Having said that, I absolutely agree that this season has been lacking in Sam POV. I think that's somewhat deliberate, because it serves the narrative this season, since it's difficult to get a true vision of Sam's brain since he's sharing it with someone else. Even when we do get into Sam's head, like when he talks about how he's feeling, it seems false, or inaccurate, since we know Zeke is in there, too. I'm really, really hoping that the show will focus as heavily on Sam's POV in reaction to Zeke and Dean's role in making him say "yes" to another entity.

I'm not overly optimistic, though; the show always seems to struggle with Sam's raison d'etre. Dean's is easy: his true north is Sam. When Sam's reason for living was Dean, in Season 3 and 4, or when his role was stopping the apocalypse in Season 5, he was so compelling and I feel like we got a great sense of his POV.

I get the feeling that the show is stuck on the "Dean wants to keep hunting, Sam wants to have a normal life" but doesn't know how to play that well; maybe, like they tend to do, they're holding it back for a big bang at the series finale. And the show totally dropped the ball by not exploring Sam's post-Lucifer, post-hell reaction, as well as how they played out the Amelia storyline. I liked the Sam we saw during the Trials; working toward an end that might do a lot of good, and finally, maybe, give Sam some peace. That was compelling. I hope the Zeke storyline gives us something similar.

I also agree that the show-runners have been unsuccessful in developing a season-long arc that flows well and is evenly paced across 23 episodes. Perhaps because the stories told in the first 5 seasons were, on the whole, cohesive with each other, and mostly well-paced across the season and even across the entirety of the entire series. This is especially true in the last three seasons. As much as I liked the 8th finale I kept wondering why we were rushing through everything packed into those 42 minutes instead of pacing it across two or three episodes? And this after the Amelia storyline, which despite all the hype/build up, seemed to flicker out and die. Perhaps again because the show struggles to make Sam's wish for a normal life compelling.

I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments at the detriment of a more evenly paced story. If they would stop working so hard at holding all their cards so they have a whiz-bang season finale, they would get a lot farther. It would also eliminate the need to show us over and over that, for example, Dean is lying, Sam is clueless/gettin g a clue, and Dean does everything because he wants to be with Sam. I'm sure the King of Hell storyline will be a corker; I'm sure getting the Angels back to heaven will be amazing. I know Sam's reaction to Dean's deal with Zeke will be epic. I just hope we get somewhere soon.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-22 08:58
Quoting kristin:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....

kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-22 08:58
Quote:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....
kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-22 10:10
Kaz1 I know which message board you are talking about. I do visit IMDB for the newest updates. Sam/Jared bashing on that site is a sport. It has gotten so bad that there are hardly any Bi-Bro or Sam fans left. So I don't see a healthy, balanced or respectful debate going on. On this site instead of saying Dean/Sam is a dick you have to say I think Dean/Sam was wrong or right and then defend your position in a respectful way. Bashing of either brother or actor is not allowed. So it is true you do have to think out what you are going to post in an intelligent, respectful way. As you can see there is a healthy debate going on right now over the last episode about both brothers. If by Sam friendly you mean we don't hate Sam on this website than you are correct. If you mean we hate Dean than that is not true.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-22 10:10
Kaz1 I know which message board you are talking about. I do visit IMDB for the newest updates. Sam/Jared bashing on that site is a sport. It has gotten so bad that there are hardly any Bi-Bro or Sam fans left. So I don't see a healthy, balanced or respectful debate going on. On this site instead of saying Dean/Sam is a dick you have to say I think Dean/Sam was wrong or right and then defend your position in a respectful way. Bashing of either brother or actor is not allowed. So it is true you do have to think out what you are going to post in an intelligent, respectful way. As you can see there is a healthy debate going on right now over the last episode about both brothers. If by Sam friendly you mean we don't hate Sam on this website than you are correct. If you mean we hate Dean than that is not true.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-22 12:34
Quoting Nate:
Quoting kristin:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....

kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).

Honestly if Sam had done the same he wouldn't of got a Bad Boys episode before Dean learnt of what he had done , and he would not of got the focus. What we probably would of got is focus on Dean the person it was done to, we would have him talking about his concerns , about Sam's odd comments and how he thinks there is something wrong but he cannot put his finger on it to somebody he has a connection to.
Sharon
# Sharon 2013-11-22 12:34
Quote:
Quote:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....
kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).
Honestly if Sam had done the same he wouldn't of got a Bad Boys episode before Dean learnt of what he had done , and he would not of got the focus. What we probably would of got is focus on Dean the person it was done to, we would have him talking about his concerns , about Sam's odd comments and how he thinks there is something wrong but he cannot put his finger on it to somebody he has a connection to.
kristin
# kristin 2013-11-23 09:45
Quoting Nate:

Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).


I agree that Sam would do what he could - no matter what the consequences - to save Dean. We've seen him do it before, in Season 3/4. I would have loved to see that storyline (but I'm also loving this one, so I'm kinda easy to please when it comes to one brother doing anything to save the other). On the other hand, what if this had happened mid-Season last year, when Dean seemed to be willing to sacrifice himself for the cause, when he couldn't see a light at the end of the tunnel? Perhaps Sam might have been able to let Dean go. I do wonder if, given what Sam knew about Dean based on their conversation during the Trials (that Dean felt he'd die young and hopefully doing something to save a lot of people), maybe Sam wouldn't have stopped the trials (or Dean wouldn't have stopped when Sam asked). Sam's willingness to stop the Trials, to me, was echoed in Sam's willingness to say "no" to Dean in the Season premiere. I'm not sure Dean would have said the same thing in either circumstance. Then again, you can't kill the lead in the series, either Sam or Dean, if you're still making the show. I hope!

Which brings up something that puts me into a cold sweat. I don't want either of these guys to die at the end of the series. And please - please, God, or Chuck, or whatever- please do not Thelma and Louise them. The idea of Sam, Dean and Baby all gone makes me want to weep.

On a different note, I'm so looking forward to Sam's reaction when he learns about Zeke. Beyond wanting to know how it impacts his relationship with Dean, I also want to know if he's going to eject Zeke or go along with having him riding shotgun until he's better enough, assuming he isn't better when he learns about it. I don't know if Sam would balance his life the same way Dean did and decide it's worth staying around for (and what a colossal mistake not ending the Trials was if Sam doesn't live after all!) . I see the story going one of two ways; Zeke is bad, and won't be ejected (maybe by blackmailing Sam in some way), or Zeke is good, and the boys need him to do something important and world-saving, so Sam can't eject him. Or, the best option, they bring back Tahmoh as a semi-regular after Sam ejects Zeke as either an ally or a bad guy. I'm not sure which premise I'd enjoy more. Probably the second, if only because I want Zeke to be good.

Knowing Dean's luck, though, it probably won't be the "good Zeke" option. He'll probably lose his relationship with Sam (and probably Cas) and he'll be fighting this bad guy who he let in the door to begin with, while they're at odds. Then again, what good television that would be!
kristin
# kristin 2013-11-23 09:45
Quote:

Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).
I agree that Sam would do what he could - no matter what the consequences - to save Dean. We've seen him do it before, in Season 3/4. I would have loved to see that storyline (but I'm also loving this one, so I'm kinda easy to please when it comes to one brother doing anything to save the other). On the other hand, what if this had happened mid-Season last year, when Dean seemed to be willing to sacrifice himself for the cause, when he couldn't see a light at the end of the tunnel? Perhaps Sam might have been able to let Dean go. I do wonder if, given what Sam knew about Dean based on their conversation during the Trials (that Dean felt he'd die young and hopefully doing something to save a lot of people), maybe Sam wouldn't have stopped the trials (or Dean wouldn't have stopped when Sam asked). Sam's willingness to stop the Trials, to me, was echoed in Sam's willingness to say "no" to Dean in the Season premiere. I'm not sure Dean would have said the same thing in either circumstance. Then again, you can't kill the lead in the series, either Sam or Dean, if you're still making the show. I hope!

Which brings up something that puts me into a cold sweat. I don't want either of these guys to die at the end of the series. And please - please, God, or Chuck, or whatever- please do not Thelma and Louise them. The idea of Sam, Dean and Baby all gone makes me want to weep.

On a different note, I'm so looking forward to Sam's reaction when he learns about Zeke. Beyond wanting to know how it impacts his relationship with Dean, I also want to know if he's going to eject Zeke or go along with having him riding shotgun until he's better enough, assuming he isn't better when he learns about it. I don't know if Sam would balance his life the same way Dean did and decide it's worth staying around for (and what a colossal mistake not ending the Trials was if Sam doesn't live after all!) . I see the story going one of two ways; Zeke is bad, and won't be ejected (maybe by blackmailing Sam in some way), or Zeke is good, and the boys need him to do something important and world-saving, so Sam can't eject him. Or, the best option, they bring back Tahmoh as a semi-regular after Sam ejects Zeke as either an ally or a bad guy. I'm not sure which premise I'd enjoy more. Probably the second, if only because I want Zeke to be good.

Knowing Dean's luck, though, it probably won't be the "good Zeke" option. He'll probably lose his relationship with Sam (and probably Cas) and he'll be fighting this bad guy who he let in the door to begin with, while they're at odds. Then again, what good television that would be!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-23 10:06
Quoting Sharon:
Quoting Nate:
Quoting kristin:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....

kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).

Honestly if Sam had done the same he wouldn't of got a Bad Boys episode before Dean learnt of what he had done , and he would not of got the focus. What we probably would of got is focus on Dean the person it was done to, we would have him talking about his concerns , about Sam's odd comments and how he thinks there is something wrong but he cannot put his finger on it to somebody he has a connection to.

I completely agree
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-23 10:06
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....
kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).
Honestly if Sam had done the same he wouldn't of got a Bad Boys episode before Dean learnt of what he had done , and he would not of got the focus. What we probably would of got is focus on Dean the person it was done to, we would have him talking about his concerns , about Sam's odd comments and how he thinks there is something wrong but he cannot put his finger on it to somebody he has a connection to.
I completely agree
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-23 10:10
The episode was not bad..but again focused on Dean's childhood and not Sam's.
The way Sam knew why Dean left sonny's supports my assumption that Sam understands Dean better than Dean understands Sam.I kind of get why Dean stayed and Sam left.the secrets both John and dean kept and them abandoning Sam just (indirectly: It is Sam whatever we get is indirectly) tells me how alienated Sam must have felt.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-23 10:10
The episode was not bad..but again focused on Dean's childhood and not Sam's.
The way Sam knew why Dean left sonny's supports my assumption that Sam understands Dean better than Dean understands Sam.I kind of get why Dean stayed and Sam left.the secrets both John and dean kept and them abandoning Sam just (indirectly: It is Sam whatever we get is indirectly) tells me how alienated Sam must have felt.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-11-23 13:54
Quoting Nate:
Quoting kristin:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....

kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).


I agree that Sam would have done the same thing to save Dean but their perspectives/ex periences on possession are a little different. I don't remember Dean every having been possessed by an angel or demon. Sam has been possessed by a demon (Meg) and an archangel (Lucifer) and has first hand experience of what it's like. Regardless of that, I don't think he'll react so much to what Dean did, but the subsequent lies and mind wipes.

I don't recall seeing this discussed at all but, on some level, I think Dean is not happy that Sam was willing to die/let go in 9.01, and that's going to come up when the shit hits the fan.
njspnfan
# njspnfan 2013-11-23 13:54
Quote:
Quote:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....
kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).
I agree that Sam would have done the same thing to save Dean but their perspectives/ex periences on possession are a little different. I don't remember Dean every having been possessed by an angel or demon. Sam has been possessed by a demon (Meg) and an archangel (Lucifer) and has first hand experience of what it's like. Regardless of that, I don't think he'll react so much to what Dean did, but the subsequent lies and mind wipes.

I don't recall seeing this discussed at all but, on some level, I think Dean is not happy that Sam was willing to die/let go in 9.01, and that's going to come up when the shit hits the fan.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-23 14:01
Quoting Sharon:
Quoting Nate:
Quoting kristin:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....

kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).

Honestly if Sam had done the same he wouldn't of got a Bad Boys episode before Dean learnt of what he had done , and he would not of got the focus. What we probably would of got is focus on Dean the person it was done to, we would have him talking about his concerns , about Sam's odd comments and how he thinks there is something wrong but he cannot put his finger on it to somebody he has a connection to.


Not to mention Dean telling Sam he knows he's lying to him and reminding him how Sam has deceived him ever since he got into his ride back in season one. For various reasons, the writers have NEVER permitted Sam to express what being possessed either by Meg or Lucifer meant to him. After Meg was exorcised, Dean punched Sam so we would know how much Sam's possession affected Dean, Sam never got a word in. Dean did ask Soulless!Sam about Hell, although he didn't repeat the question once Sam was able to actually feel what happened to him. The one thing he never even raised was what the possession was like to Sam. What it felt like to see his body do things he would never have done and which would presumably have been repulsive to him. Heck, Dean doesn't even know that Sam was followed and manipulated by demons his entire life.

Over on the sweetondean review it was mentioned that this was Dean's Stanford. If it was, the big difference is that nine years from now (if the show is on) Sam will NOT be berating Dean about how selfish he was to want another life. He probably wouldn't even mention the hypocrisy of Dean holding Sam enjoying ONE Thanksgiving without Dean when Dean had one of his happiest times of his life without Sam. Basically Dean's desire for normal was shown very sympathetically , whereas Dean has continued to tell Sam and the audience that Sam wanting normal is impossible, wrong and a slap in Dean's face. Even in season one, when he was the closest to understanding Sam's need, he still was all pouty about Sam intending to go back to school when the "thing that killed Mom" as it was known then died.

In terms of the story, Dean missed a big chance here. Sam was aware that Dean sacrificed a place he was happy to be with Sam and Sam thanked him for it. He was in the best possible emotional state to accept a "I've always loved you and could never leave you, so I did something really bad after you collapsed during the trials". Sam would not have liked it, but he was in a great frame of mind to accept it. Instead Dean let sleeping secrets lie, ready to blow up in his face.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-23 14:01
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I've realized that SPN lives for the big reveal moments....
kristin, great points. I agree with you on the pacing. Season 8, once seen fully, made more sense, but the path to GET there should be more exciting. I don't remember the last time the show really *shocked* me, other than the awesome S8 final.
Your post made me think: If the roles were reversed and Sam had to decide if Zeke would inhabit and save Dean, what would happen? I don't know why this didn't pop into my head before, but I'm interested to see your thoughts, and everyone's for that matter. I think Sam would do the same, and take the chance and save Dean (and not just because there would otherwise be no show :-) ).
Honestly if Sam had done the same he wouldn't of got a Bad Boys episode before Dean learnt of what he had done , and he would not of got the focus. What we probably would of got is focus on Dean the person it was done to, we would have him talking about his concerns , about Sam's odd comments and how he thinks there is something wrong but he cannot put his finger on it to somebody he has a connection to.
Not to mention Dean telling Sam he knows he's lying to him and reminding him how Sam has deceived him ever since he got into his ride back in season one. For various reasons, the writers have NEVER permitted Sam to express what being possessed either by Meg or Lucifer meant to him. After Meg was exorcised, Dean punched Sam so we would know how much Sam's possession affected Dean, Sam never got a word in. Dean did ask Soulless!Sam about Hell, although he didn't repeat the question once Sam was able to actually feel what happened to him. The one thing he never even raised was what the possession was like to Sam. What it felt like to see his body do things he would never have done and which would presumably have been repulsive to him. Heck, Dean doesn't even know that Sam was followed and manipulated by demons his entire life.

Over on the sweetondean review it was mentioned that this was Dean's Stanford. If it was, the big difference is that nine years from now (if the show is on) Sam will NOT be berating Dean about how selfish he was to want another life. He probably wouldn't even mention the hypocrisy of Dean holding Sam enjoying ONE Thanksgiving without Dean when Dean had one of his happiest times of his life without Sam. Basically Dean's desire for normal was shown very sympathetically , whereas Dean has continued to tell Sam and the audience that Sam wanting normal is impossible, wrong and a slap in Dean's face. Even in season one, when he was the closest to understanding Sam's need, he still was all pouty about Sam intending to go back to school when the "thing that killed Mom" as it was known then died.

In terms of the story, Dean missed a big chance here. Sam was aware that Dean sacrificed a place he was happy to be with Sam and Sam thanked him for it. He was in the best possible emotional state to accept a "I've always loved you and could never leave you, so I did something really bad after you collapsed during the trials". Sam would not have liked it, but he was in a great frame of mind to accept it. Instead Dean let sleeping secrets lie, ready to blow up in his face.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-23 17:28
Tim, you're my hero. I really missed your posts these last few episodes because you always voice what I feel so much better that I can! Welcome back! Please stay! You too Alice. I love your reviews.

Nate, I understand it would be nice for you if Sam was all understanding about the Zeke possession and didn't get mad. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that all the stuff with Ruby in season 4 stemmed from Sam's grief over Dean's death and once he started to use his powers and drink demon blood, there was no going back. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that Sam lied because he craved Dean's approval and was afraid of disappointing him. But he ended up being angry for a whole season because he's human and got hurt. Sam is going to be hurt too, like Dean was.

As for the question regarding Sam doing the same thing Dean did to save him, I believe he would have let Dean go. He's shown over the last few years a belief that what's dead should stay dead and that upsetting the natural order never ends well. His request to Death indicated that, as well as the fact that he accepted Dean's death last season.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-23 17:28
Tim, you're my hero. I really missed your posts these last few episodes because you always voice what I feel so much better that I can! Welcome back! Please stay! You too Alice. I love your reviews.

Nate, I understand it would be nice for you if Sam was all understanding about the Zeke possession and didn't get mad. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that all the stuff with Ruby in season 4 stemmed from Sam's grief over Dean's death and once he started to use his powers and drink demon blood, there was no going back. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that Sam lied because he craved Dean's approval and was afraid of disappointing him. But he ended up being angry for a whole season because he's human and got hurt. Sam is going to be hurt too, like Dean was.

As for the question regarding Sam doing the same thing Dean did to save him, I believe he would have let Dean go. He's shown over the last few years a belief that what's dead should stay dead and that upsetting the natural order never ends well. His request to Death indicated that, as well as the fact that he accepted Dean's death last season.
E
# E 2013-11-23 19:39
[quote name="JuliaG" Nate, I understand it would be nice for you if Sam was all understanding about the Zeke possession and didn't get mad. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that all the stuff with Ruby in season 4 stemmed from Sam's grief over Dean's death and once he started to use his powers and drink demon blood, there was no going back. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that Sam lied because he craved Dean's approval and was afraid of disappointing him. But he ended up being angry for a whole season because he's human and got hurt. Sam is going to be hurt too, like Dean was.

As for the question regarding Sam doing the same thing Dean did to save him, I believe he would have let Dean go. He's shown over the last few years a belief that what's dead should stay dead and that upsetting the natural order never ends well. His request to Death indicated that, as well as the fact that he accepted Dean's death last season.

Hi Julia, I agree with you on both fronts! Sam was practically flambéd in season 4 for his actions with Ruby and generally Dean's anger over the situation was understood and supported. It will be interesting to see if now that the shoe is on the other foot if Sam's anger will be supported; given what we saw in The Mentalists, I am not holding my breath.

As far as Sam doing the same thing Dean did at the start of the season I agree with you there as well; I don't think Sam would have made the same choices Dean made at all. That is not a criticism of Dean; I am heartily glad that he choose to save Sam, and I also think that the decision to do so was very much "Dean." However, I don't think Sam would have done the same. Sam has shown repeatedly, especially lately, that he's NOT willing to go any and all lengths to revive the dead; he may have been at one time, but not any more. I believe that he has learned the lessons of his mistakes in Season 4 well. His actions when he thought Dean was dead in season 8 spoke volumes as to his current headspace, as did his "If I die, make sure I stay dead" conversation with Death in episode 1. Also, if you remember in season 4's Time Is On My Side, Dean made is crystal clear that he was not willing to become a Frankenstein's Monster just so that he could live and get out of his deal. For Dean, living at the expense of becoming a monster was not worth it, and Sam ended up respecting Dean's wishes in that case and I think Sam would have put possession by angel into the same category as Dr. Benton's methods. I am with you, I think if the roles had been reversed, Sam would have let Dean go, and quite possibly have decided to join him.
E
# E 2013-11-23 19:39
Hi Julia, I agree with you on both fronts! Sam was practically flambéd in season 4 for his actions with Ruby and generally Dean's anger over the situation was understood and supported. It will be interesting to see if now that the shoe is on the other foot if Sam's anger will be supported; given what we saw in The Mentalists, I am not holding my breath.

As far as Sam doing the same thing Dean did at the start of the season I agree with you there as well; I don't think Sam would have made the same choices Dean made at all. That is not a criticism of Dean; I am heartily glad that he choose to save Sam, and I also think that the decision to do so was very much "Dean." However, I don't think Sam would have done the same. Sam has shown repeatedly, especially lately, that he's NOT willing to go any and all lengths to revive the dead; he may have been at one time, but not any more. I believe that he has learned the lessons of his mistakes in Season 4 well. His actions when he thought Dean was dead in season 8 spoke volumes as to his current headspace, as did his "If I die, make sure I stay dead" conversation with Death in episode 1. Also, if you remember in season 4's Time Is On My Side, Dean made is crystal clear that he was not willing to become a Frankenstein's Monster just so that he could live and get out of his deal. For Dean, living at the expense of becoming a monster was not worth it, and Sam ended up respecting Dean's wishes in that case and I think Sam would have put possession by angel into the same category as Dr. Benton's methods. I am with you, I think if the roles had been reversed, Sam would have let Dean go, and quite possibly have decided to join him.
st50
# st50 2013-11-23 19:58
Quoting E:
I am with you, I think if the roles had been reversed, Sam would have let Dean go, and quite possibly have decided to join him.


Yes. I believe so, too.
st50
# st50 2013-11-23 19:58
Quote:
I am with you, I think if the roles had been reversed, Sam would have let Dean go, and quite possibly have decided to join him.
Yes. I believe so, too.
leah d
# leah d 2013-11-23 22:18
I don't know, maybe you guys are right. Time Is On My Side seems a little different to me though, in that they COULD discuss it. Dean wasn't dying in seconds and they still felt they could find another way to save Dean's life. Sam was willing to make a deal with Ruby to stop and when Dean died Sam tried everything including a crossroads demon in his desperation. I think we can all agree that Sam not looking for Dean was controversial and seemed OOC in S8. I am not disagreeing really. I just have a hard time thinking if Sam had been at his dying brothers bedside and the seconds were ticking away on his life, that he would have let Dean slip away. He couldn't have a discussion with Dean (as Dean would have liked to have had with Sam) the machines were beeping. I can't help but think Sam would have done the same thing for the same reasons in this situation. But that's just me.

The smell of flambéed brothers (sometimes Sam, sometimes Dean) is strong some days, that is surely true!! :-) Sometimes they can't win.
leah d
# leah d 2013-11-23 22:18
I don't know, maybe you guys are right. Time Is On My Side seems a little different to me though, in that they COULD discuss it. Dean wasn't dying in seconds and they still felt they could find another way to save Dean's life. Sam was willing to make a deal with Ruby to stop and when Dean died Sam tried everything including a crossroads demon in his desperation. I think we can all agree that Sam not looking for Dean was controversial and seemed OOC in S8. I am not disagreeing really. I just have a hard time thinking if Sam had been at his dying brothers bedside and the seconds were ticking away on his life, that he would have let Dean slip away. He couldn't have a discussion with Dean (as Dean would have liked to have had with Sam) the machines were beeping. I can't help but think Sam would have done the same thing for the same reasons in this situation. But that's just me.

The smell of flambéed brothers (sometimes Sam, sometimes Dean) is strong some days, that is surely true!! :-) Sometimes they can't win.
E
# E 2013-11-23 23:44
Hi leah d,
Perhaps Time Is On My Side is a little different in that the circumstances weren't quite so dire. But in that episode (season 3, not 4! as I stated above) Dean really laid it out to Sam about how far he was willing to go (or not go in this case) and Sam ended up respecting that. I find it kind of funny that Dean has a firm line drawn in the sand about what he is willing to do and not do when it comes to his own survival, and I think that Sam grudgingly respects that line. But Sam has a line too, but for Dean, he'll cross it if it means saving Sam every time. Oh these brothers just kill me! I respect Dean's willingness to do anything for Sam and I also respect Sam's sense of integrity even though they end up conflicting and creating drama.
E
# E 2013-11-23 23:44
Hi leah d,
Perhaps Time Is On My Side is a little different in that the circumstances weren't quite so dire. But in that episode (season 3, not 4! as I stated above) Dean really laid it out to Sam about how far he was willing to go (or not go in this case) and Sam ended up respecting that. I find it kind of funny that Dean has a firm line drawn in the sand about what he is willing to do and not do when it comes to his own survival, and I think that Sam grudgingly respects that line. But Sam has a line too, but for Dean, he'll cross it if it means saving Sam every time. Oh these brothers just kill me! I respect Dean's willingness to do anything for Sam and I also respect Sam's sense of integrity even though they end up conflicting and creating drama.
leah d
# leah d 2013-11-24 00:15
Quoting E - "Oh these brothers just kill me! I respect Dean's willingness to do anything for Sam and I also respect Sam's sense of integrity even though they end up conflicting and creating drama." Indeed E! :D
leah d
# leah d 2013-11-24 00:15
Quoting E - "Oh these brothers just kill me! I respect Dean's willingness to do anything for Sam and I also respect Sam's sense of integrity even though they end up conflicting and creating drama." Indeed E! :D
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-24 01:15
Actually I think that although circumstances in Time Is On My Side weren't as immediate, they were, in many ways, more dire. Dean wasn't just going to die, he was going to HELL to be tortured. Sam was trying to do more than just save Dean's life, he was trying to save Dean's soul from eternal torment and to keep Dean from becoming the thing he hated a demon. Even under those circumstances he was willing to not force Dean to live a way that Dean found repulsive and worse than facing Hell. Plus, by that time, Dean wanted to live. Sam trying to bring Dean back wasn't only for himself because he couldn't live without Dean, it was also because he knew that Dean was in constant, unrelenting and eternal (or so he believed) pain.

When Sam was about to die, Dean had every reason to believe Sam would go to Heaven. Sam had been accepted in Heaven every time he died in season five according to Joshua, even "after what YOU did". He had purified himself with the trials. Metatron hadn't taken over Heaven, so there was no reason to think that (other than when rouge reapers took a bribe) admission to Heaven would be denied to Sam. Plus Dean knew Sam was reconciled to death over upsetting the natural order. Dean bringing Sam back wasn't for Sam it was only because Dean doesn't want to live without Sam. Dean has brought Sam back three times so far. The first time after Cold Oak, Sam coming back led to Sam going into the Cage and being tortured. The second time, Dean insisted on putting Sam's soul back into his body, instead of at least ASKING Castiel to take it to Heaven where it might be healed. Also in order to get Sam back, Dean had to see what refusing to let death proceed naturally led to. We have no idea what the ramifications of Dean upsetting the natural order will be this time, especially since he has not only upset it for Sam, but also for Cas and Charlie. Who died in their place? What price will Sam (or Cas or Charlie) have to pay for being alive when they should be dead? We already know that by leaving the Gates of Hell open, people have died who would not have if Sam had finished the trials.

I would respect Dean's willingness to do anything for Sam if he were actually doing it for Sam. But Dean has made these decisions in direct contravention of what Sam wants. And that bothers me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-24 01:15
Actually I think that although circumstances in Time Is On My Side weren't as immediate, they were, in many ways, more dire. Dean wasn't just going to die, he was going to HELL to be tortured. Sam was trying to do more than just save Dean's life, he was trying to save Dean's soul from eternal torment and to keep Dean from becoming the thing he hated a demon. Even under those circumstances he was willing to not force Dean to live a way that Dean found repulsive and worse than facing Hell. Plus, by that time, Dean wanted to live. Sam trying to bring Dean back wasn't only for himself because he couldn't live without Dean, it was also because he knew that Dean was in constant, unrelenting and eternal (or so he believed) pain.

When Sam was about to die, Dean had every reason to believe Sam would go to Heaven. Sam had been accepted in Heaven every time he died in season five according to Joshua, even "after what YOU did". He had purified himself with the trials. Metatron hadn't taken over Heaven, so there was no reason to think that (other than when rouge reapers took a bribe) admission to Heaven would be denied to Sam. Plus Dean knew Sam was reconciled to death over upsetting the natural order. Dean bringing Sam back wasn't for Sam it was only because Dean doesn't want to live without Sam. Dean has brought Sam back three times so far. The first time after Cold Oak, Sam coming back led to Sam going into the Cage and being tortured. The second time, Dean insisted on putting Sam's soul back into his body, instead of at least ASKING Castiel to take it to Heaven where it might be healed. Also in order to get Sam back, Dean had to see what refusing to let death proceed naturally led to. We have no idea what the ramifications of Dean upsetting the natural order will be this time, especially since he has not only upset it for Sam, but also for Cas and Charlie. Who died in their place? What price will Sam (or Cas or Charlie) have to pay for being alive when they should be dead? We already know that by leaving the Gates of Hell open, people have died who would not have if Sam had finished the trials.

I would respect Dean's willingness to do anything for Sam if he were actually doing it for Sam. But Dean has made these decisions in direct contravention of what Sam wants. And that bothers me.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 01:28
Quoting eilf:
Quoting E:
I mean, Sam is alive, what could be wrong with that? It's more about the total lack of detail and explanation for the other side of the equation that is getting to me here. What about Sam's motivations that depict why he feels the way he feels? While we are getting anvils dropped on our heads about what motivates Dean to do what he did, why are we not getting similar anvils that describe why Sam
might have a problem with Dean's decisions? Currently (again!) its a one sided story, and I am tired of only
seeing that one, incomplete side.

Quote:
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.

Well the way i see it is that next week has an episode which
a) sets Sam up with the only non-enemy character since Ellen died that Sam has ever been allowed to bond with (with the possible exception of Kevin)
b)Removes Dean from the equation
If the show can't, with that scenario, come up with some POV for Sam (that isn't 4 iterations of, 'I just don't feel settled here, what can I say?') then after a season and a third of this I really think that will clarify where the emphasis of the show has gone and how the mid-season is going to play out.

I almost feel in mourning for Sam, I miss him terribly - and I love what Jared is doing with Zeke, he is an excellent character - but that is a different issue.

To those of you that are happy with the feels of the last episode, it is because there is this sense of loss on my/our side that we are having a hard time being happy with you. Dean having feels for a character we haven't seen since the middle of season 7 just feels odd.

The main reason 'Sam' is still even here as a ghost is because Jared puts everything into whatever he gets to work with - and like the end of the last episode - he gives it a depth and emotion that the episode just didn't seem to earn.

I know this is an over-the-top interpretation but there is an assumption that not being happy with the Dean feels and point of view means not liking Dean. it couldn't be further from the truth. But if the next episode was Dean in a mental hospital and he was told he was there because he keeps talking to a brother who died years ago that wouldn't be a surprising twist at all.
I am loving this season because Dean is a badass on equal footing with angel and demon, and the mytharc(s) are fully in his ballcourt, as I predicted based on my interpretations of season 8. I predicted character arcs for C2 and Sam. I still think that will happen; for instance, Sam actually realizing that Dean gave up something for his well being and thanking him for it. I seriously hope that Sam doesn't give the usual hissy git and traipse away, because that is what will give Zeke and Abaddon/Cain access to the most powerful vessel, Michael's sword. It's obvious that Zeke is doing everything for Dean; whether he wants Dean for himsrlf or someone else is the question. What is interesting is Dean knows. At the hospital he didn't care. He's starting to care now I think, or at least question whether his sacrifice is worth it. I think if Sam is upset it will be because Dean promised his body away in a deal to save Sam. The one thing Sam wanted was to die and no one could make a deal for him- like Dean did before and luke Dean did again. I predict he will be upset at the deal. I hope that Sam and Cas work together to help Dean rather than forsake him. Lord knows Dean would not turn his back in them.

As for this episode, I liked it more or less. I think Dean was happy there but left for Sam because he knew what Sam's life might be like if there wasn't Dean to buffer John. Dean's shown the capacity to be hapoy and excel in many environments, such as jail, the movie industry and purgatory. He's the alpha human in that regard. I think every episode has shown Dean dealing emotionally with his choice. Both the dog and D-dawg episodes clearly indicate that Dean is very aware that the entire thing will go sideways, and it was a bad Idea to begin with. Sam is his Achilles heel.

I kind of have to laugh at all of this righteous indignation for Sam. Would you be happy if he was dead? Would we be hearing comment after comment that the show is great as we watch Dean set up house with his new girl? Of course Dean was going to save Sam and of course he would offer up himself in the bargain. There were clear parallels to season 2 in Sacrifice, just substitute angel/angels for demons/demon. Oh that's right! Paying attention to sub-text is mocked here.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 01:28
Quote:
Quote:
I mean, Sam is alive, what could be wrong with that? It's more about the total lack of detail and explanation for the other side of the equation that is getting to me here. What about Sam's motivations that depict why he feels the way he feels? While we are getting anvils dropped on our heads about what motivates Dean to do what he did, why are we not getting similar anvils that describe why Sam
might have a problem with Dean's decisions? Currently (again!) its a one sided story, and I am tired of only
seeing that one, incomplete side.
Quote:
#65 - Ale... experience over the last several seasons does not make "chilling" very easy. If there had been a better representation of Sam's opinions and feelings, I'd be a whole lot happier with a "wait and see" attitude.
Well the way i see it is that next week has an episode which
a) sets Sam up with the only non-enemy character since Ellen died that Sam has ever been allowed to bond with (with the possible exception of Kevin)
b)Removes Dean from the equation
If the show can't, with that scenario, come up with some POV for Sam (that isn't 4 iterations of, 'I just don't feel settled here, what can I say?') then after a season and a third of this I really think that will clarify where the emphasis of the show has gone and how the mid-season is going to play out.

I almost feel in mourning for Sam, I miss him terribly - and I love what Jared is doing with Zeke, he is an excellent character - but that is a different issue.

To those of you that are happy with the feels of the last episode, it is because there is this sense of loss on my/our side that we are having a hard time being happy with you. Dean having feels for a character we haven't seen since the middle of season 7 just feels odd.

The main reason 'Sam' is still even here as a ghost is because Jared puts everything into whatever he gets to work with - and like the end of the last episode - he gives it a depth and emotion that the episode just didn't seem to earn.

I know this is an over-the-top interpretation but there is an assumption that not being happy with the Dean feels and point of view means not liking Dean. it couldn't be further from the truth. But if the next episode was Dean in a mental hospital and he was told he was there because he keeps talking to a brother who died years ago that wouldn't be a surprising twist at all.
I am loving this season because Dean is a badass on equal footing with angel and demon, and the mytharc(s) are fully in his ballcourt, as I predicted based on my interpretations of season 8. I predicted character arcs for C2 and Sam. I still think that will happen; for instance, Sam actually realizing that Dean gave up something for his well being and thanking him for it. I seriously hope that Sam doesn't give the usual hissy git and traipse away, because that is what will give Zeke and Abaddon/Cain access to the most powerful vessel, Michael's sword. It's obvious that Zeke is doing everything for Dean; whether he wants Dean for himsrlf or someone else is the question. What is interesting is Dean knows. At the hospital he didn't care. He's starting to care now I think, or at least question whether his sacrifice is worth it. I think if Sam is upset it will be because Dean promised his body away in a deal to save Sam. The one thing Sam wanted was to die and no one could make a deal for him- like Dean did before and luke Dean did again. I predict he will be upset at the deal. I hope that Sam and Cas work together to help Dean rather than forsake him. Lord knows Dean would not turn his back in them.

As for this episode, I liked it more or less. I think Dean was happy there but left for Sam because he knew what Sam's life might be like if there wasn't Dean to buffer John. Dean's shown the capacity to be hapoy and excel in many environments, such as jail, the movie industry and purgatory. He's the alpha human in that regard. I think every episode has shown Dean dealing emotionally with his choice. Both the dog and D-dawg episodes clearly indicate that Dean is very aware that the entire thing will go sideways, and it was a bad Idea to begin with. Sam is his Achilles heel.

I kind of have to laugh at all of this righteous indignation for Sam. Would you be happy if he was dead? Would we be hearing comment after comment that the show is great as we watch Dean set up house with his new girl? Of course Dean was going to save Sam and of course he would offer up himself in the bargain. There were clear parallels to season 2 in Sacrifice, just substitute angel/angels for demons/demon. Oh that's right! Paying attention to sub-text is mocked here.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-24 03:01
Quoting castiels cat:
Quote:


To those of you that are happy with the feels of the last episode, it is because there is this sense of loss on my/our side that we are having a hard time being happy with you. Dean having feels for a character we haven't seen since the middle of season 7 just feels odd.

The main reason 'Sam' is still even here as a ghost is because Jared puts everything into whatever he gets to work with - and like the end of the last episode - he gives it a depth and emotion that the episode just didn't seem to earn.

I know this is an over-the-top interpretation but there is an assumption that not being happy with the Dean feels and point of view means not liking Dean. it couldn't be further from the truth. But if the next episode was Dean in a mental hospital and he was told he was there because he keeps talking to a brother who died years ago that wouldn't be a surprising twist at all.


I am loving this season because Dean is a badass on equal footing with angel and demon, and the mytharc(s) are fully in his ballcourt, as I predicted based on my interpretations of season 8. I predicted character arcs for C2 and Sam. I still think that will happen; for instance, Sam actually realizing that Dean gave up something for his well being and thanking him for it. I seriously hope that Sam doesn't give the usual hissy git and traipse away, because that is what will give Zeke and Abaddon/Cain access to the most powerful vessel, Michael's sword. It's obvious that Zeke is doing everything for Dean; whether he wants Dean for himsrlf or someone else is the question. What is interesting is Dean knows. At the hospital he didn't care. He's starting to care now I think, or at least question whether his sacrifice is worth it. I think if Sam is upset it will be because Dean promised his body away in a deal to save Sam.
I kind of have to laugh at all of this righteous indignation for Sam. Would you be happy if he was dead? Would we be hearing comment after comment that the show is great as we watch Dean set up house with his new girl? Of course Dean was going to save Sam and of course he would offer up himself in the bargain. There were clear parallels to season 2 in Sacrifice, just substitute angel/angels for demons/demon. Oh that's right! Paying attention to sub-text is mocked here.
You are mocking for worrying about Sam .No one is mocking you for thinking about subtext.Don't blame others for what you are doing.
The show writers don't seem to remember what happened in the earlier seasons.You want to think about the subtext.good,I do not care enough to mock you.
Sam would not be dead even if Dean did not make a deal..because this is a show.If the price of Dean not setting up a home with a girl is sam not having to voice his displeasure or getting blamed when he does then yes I worry.Oh! and i would be happy if Sam's death would mean him not being possessed without his consent.
I hope Sam shows his indignition/ang er/hurt or any other emotion for you it might be an hissy fit but for me it is not.I will support Sam if he takes time to clear his head (read triapse) Dean is too loud and clingy to give Sam time so Sam has to make time and place for himself.Dean is a person who loves Sam but does not understand Sam, may be he should be given a chance to look at Sam through new eyes.
Dean offered Sam for the bargain even if he claimed to offer himself.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-24 03:01
Quote:
Quote:


To those of you that are happy with the feels of the last episode, it is because there is this sense of loss on my/our side that we are having a hard time being happy with you. Dean having feels for a character we haven't seen since the middle of season 7 just feels odd.

The main reason 'Sam' is still even here as a ghost is because Jared puts everything into whatever he gets to work with - and like the end of the last episode - he gives it a depth and emotion that the episode just didn't seem to earn.

I know this is an over-the-top interpretation but there is an assumption that not being happy with the Dean feels and point of view means not liking Dean. it couldn't be further from the truth. But if the next episode was Dean in a mental hospital and he was told he was there because he keeps talking to a brother who died years ago that wouldn't be a surprising twist at all.
I am loving this season because Dean is a badass on equal footing with angel and demon, and the mytharc(s) are fully in his ballcourt, as I predicted based on my interpretations of season 8. I predicted character arcs for C2 and Sam. I still think that will happen; for instance, Sam actually realizing that Dean gave up something for his well being and thanking him for it. I seriously hope that Sam doesn't give the usual hissy git and traipse away, because that is what will give Zeke and Abaddon/Cain access to the most powerful vessel, Michael's sword. It's obvious that Zeke is doing everything for Dean; whether he wants Dean for himsrlf or someone else is the question. What is interesting is Dean knows. At the hospital he didn't care. He's starting to care now I think, or at least question whether his sacrifice is worth it. I think if Sam is upset it will be because Dean promised his body away in a deal to save Sam.
I kind of have to laugh at all of this righteous indignation for Sam. Would you be happy if he was dead? Would we be hearing comment after comment that the show is great as we watch Dean set up house with his new girl? Of course Dean was going to save Sam and of course he would offer up himself in the bargain. There were clear parallels to season 2 in Sacrifice, just substitute angel/angels for demons/demon. Oh that's right! Paying attention to sub-text is mocked here.
You are mocking for worrying about Sam .No one is mocking you for thinking about subtext.Don't blame others for what you are doing.
The show writers don't seem to remember what happened in the earlier seasons.You want to think about the subtext.good,I do not care enough to mock you.
Sam would not be dead even if Dean did not make a deal..because this is a show.If the price of Dean not setting up a home with a girl is sam not having to voice his displeasure or getting blamed when he does then yes I worry.Oh! and i would be happy if Sam's death would mean him not being possessed without his consent.
I hope Sam shows his indignition/ang er/hurt or any other emotion for you it might be an hissy fit but for me it is not.I will support Sam if he takes time to clear his head (read triapse) Dean is too loud and clingy to give Sam time so Sam has to make time and place for himself.Dean is a person who loves Sam but does not understand Sam, may be he should be given a chance to look at Sam through new eyes.
Dean offered Sam for the bargain even if he claimed to offer himself.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-24 09:19
Thank you AnonymousN for saying what I was thinking more politely than I would have.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-24 09:19
Thank you AnonymousN for saying what I was thinking more politely than I would have.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 10:49
CastielsCat I am not sure what your point is. Even Dean knows that Sam is going to be pissed. The little speech to Timmy was the point of "Bad Boys" I thought. "Sometimes you have to hurt the ones you love in order to do what's best for you". Dean saved Sam for Dean. He knew that Sam would never consent to possession so he knows how hurt and angry Sam is going to be. If this whole storyline is another set up for Dean to call Sam a bitch and storm off than I will be disappointed. I hope it means that Dean will understand where Sam is coming from. And Zeke doesn't need to possess Dean he is already in one of the 2 strongest vessels on earth.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 10:49
CastielsCat I am not sure what your point is. Even Dean knows that Sam is going to be pissed. The little speech to Timmy was the point of "Bad Boys" I thought. "Sometimes you have to hurt the ones you love in order to do what's best for you". Dean saved Sam for Dean. He knew that Sam would never consent to possession so he knows how hurt and angry Sam is going to be. If this whole storyline is another set up for Dean to call Sam a bitch and storm off than I will be disappointed. I hope it means that Dean will understand where Sam is coming from. And Zeke doesn't need to possess Dean he is already in one of the 2 strongest vessels on earth.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 15:08
In regards to your observation that Sam is a powerful vessel. He was. He is not important to the angels as would be Michael's vessel and he is not described as Michael's sword and the instrument of heaven's vengeance. Furthermore, Zeke is completely focused on Dean. He comforts Dean about his decision, tells Dean that he responded because Dean acts with love, heals those important to Dean even if it weakens him, and goes on missions unrelated to the angels because Dean goes, despite the fact that it puts him at risk. Dean and Zeke are bonding and spoilers indicate they bond more in the future. Sam couldn't be more passive to this story unless he was still in a coma at the hospital or dead.

Of course this is deliberate. it tells us that Dean is the anchor to the angel mytharc, as he should be. It also I think hammers the problem with the Simething is wrong wirh Sam trope that has been overused since season 2; this trope prevents Sam from being a fully realized character because he serves the plot. Now Carver is on record having serious problems with how Sam has been written in the past. Last season he emphasized Sam's choices and how they have affected Dean. This was brought up in the premiere, at least twice in the middle of the seasonseason, and during the final, and culminated in Sam being forced to admit to himself and Dean how he has failed himhim. By inference we understand that he did the trials as a grand gesture for Dean, his way of atonement. Dean just needed to see that Sam cared. Their love for each other is more important than anything else. I thinl he hammered Sam's poor decisions under stress by having him not look for Dean and through his jealousy fueled vendetta against Saint Benny.

This season he is really hammering limp Sam/Sam done come back wrong. By the end of this I think Sam will be a real boy or dead. I hope his response is more than a hissy fit because he's too old to act like a teenager and Dean has swallowed an awful lot of crap because he loves him.

I am a little worried that Zeke is fixing Sam's head, giving him angel prozac in addiction to angel lobotomy, and also getting a bit Stepford in that Sam suddenly wants to hunt and sees the batcave as home (there's no place at home). I think Dean is worried too.

Dean saved sam because that's his prime directive. Sam isnt dying on his watch. Bad Boys showed us a Dean fully able to be happy without Sam. So does his growing network of families and mentees. Last season Dean left Sam and told him to leave and go to Amelia. Dean planned to die doing the trials so Sam could live the good life. Dean loves but he is hardly clingy. He was angry because Sam didn't care enough to try. The man that stayed in Purgatory to find Cas doesn't understand not trying.

Adam Glass focused on Dean in this episode because his mental state is incredibly important to the current story. He focused on Dean in Freaks and Geeks because part of Dean's ongoing character arc is his growing role as elder, leader, and mentor to the next generation of hunters. He also focused on Dean because this was an episode to remind us of Benny and the fact that you don't kill someone just because they are a vampire, and one needs to look beyond the circumstantial evidence. Of course it was a Dean episode.

Personally, I think anyone interested in a good show would be interested in all of the main characters and what is happening plot-wise. Seriously, whining about Sam's lack of friends or too much zeke (all 15 minutes if that...). That tells me that your only interest is Sam. I am not watching the Sam show. Anyhow I thought you all were jonesing for Dean to make a mistake. So he did it! it's the same mistake he always makes. He loves Sam too much to let him die and still will willingly sacrifice himself for Sam. He will owe Zeke whatever Zeke asks. That is the mytharc folks.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 15:08
In regards to your observation that Sam is a powerful vessel. He was. He is not important to the angels as would be Michael's vessel and he is not described as Michael's sword and the instrument of heaven's vengeance. Furthermore, Zeke is completely focused on Dean. He comforts Dean about his decision, tells Dean that he responded because Dean acts with love, heals those important to Dean even if it weakens him, and goes on missions unrelated to the angels because Dean goes, despite the fact that it puts him at risk. Dean and Zeke are bonding and spoilers indicate they bond more in the future. Sam couldn't be more passive to this story unless he was still in a coma at the hospital or dead.

Of course this is deliberate. it tells us that Dean is the anchor to the angel mytharc, as he should be. It also I think hammers the problem with the Simething is wrong wirh Sam trope that has been overused since season 2; this trope prevents Sam from being a fully realized character because he serves the plot. Now Carver is on record having serious problems with how Sam has been written in the past. Last season he emphasized Sam's choices and how they have affected Dean. This was brought up in the premiere, at least twice in the middle of the seasonseason, and during the final, and culminated in Sam being forced to admit to himself and Dean how he has failed himhim. By inference we understand that he did the trials as a grand gesture for Dean, his way of atonement. Dean just needed to see that Sam cared. Their love for each other is more important than anything else. I thinl he hammered Sam's poor decisions under stress by having him not look for Dean and through his jealousy fueled vendetta against Saint Benny.

This season he is really hammering limp Sam/Sam done come back wrong. By the end of this I think Sam will be a real boy or dead. I hope his response is more than a hissy fit because he's too old to act like a teenager and Dean has swallowed an awful lot of crap because he loves him.

I am a little worried that Zeke is fixing Sam's head, giving him angel prozac in addiction to angel lobotomy, and also getting a bit Stepford in that Sam suddenly wants to hunt and sees the batcave as home (there's no place at home). I think Dean is worried too.

Dean saved sam because that's his prime directive. Sam isnt dying on his watch. Bad Boys showed us a Dean fully able to be happy without Sam. So does his growing network of families and mentees. Last season Dean left Sam and told him to leave and go to Amelia. Dean planned to die doing the trials so Sam could live the good life. Dean loves but he is hardly clingy. He was angry because Sam didn't care enough to try. The man that stayed in Purgatory to find Cas doesn't understand not trying.

Adam Glass focused on Dean in this episode because his mental state is incredibly important to the current story. He focused on Dean in Freaks and Geeks because part of Dean's ongoing character arc is his growing role as elder, leader, and mentor to the next generation of hunters. He also focused on Dean because this was an episode to remind us of Benny and the fact that you don't kill someone just because they are a vampire, and one needs to look beyond the circumstantial evidence. Of course it was a Dean episode.

Personally, I think anyone interested in a good show would be interested in all of the main characters and what is happening plot-wise. Seriously, whining about Sam's lack of friends or too much zeke (all 15 minutes if that...). That tells me that your only interest is Sam. I am not watching the Sam show. Anyhow I thought you all were jonesing for Dean to make a mistake. So he did it! it's the same mistake he always makes. He loves Sam too much to let him die and still will willingly sacrifice himself for Sam. He will owe Zeke whatever Zeke asks. That is the mytharc folks.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 15:20
Quoting cheryl42:
CastielsCat I am not sure what your point is. Even Dean knows that Sam is going to be pissed. The little speech to Timmy was the point of "Bad Boys" I thought. "Sometimes you have to hurt the ones you love in order to do what's best for you". Dean saved Sam for Dean. He knew that Sam would never consent to possession so he knows how hurt and angry Sam is going to be. If this whole storyline is another set up for Dean to call Sam a bitch and storm off than I will be disappointed. I hope it means that Dean will understand where Sam is coming from. And Zeke doesn't need to possess Dean he is already in one of the 2 strongest vessels on earth.


It is the opposite of Sam last year. Dean panicked and did what he had to do to save Sam. He knows it was a bad decision every which way. I think Sam will be maddest because Dean has offered himself up again for Sam. That is expressly what Head Sam did not want to happen. As for the posession...Fra nkly Zeke is healing Sam and helping Dean. He's not doing anything that is counter to Sam's being and identify like Meg, or Lucifer... yet. I think the biggest issue is the secrets and lying. Zeke is forcing Dean to be shady for Sam. That is the rub. Sure Sam should be mad about that but it is not the first time Dean withheld information will protect Sam. I am guessing after frank dialogue it will be the last. A reverse Sacrifice moment if you will.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 15:20
Quote:
CastielsCat I am not sure what your point is. Even Dean knows that Sam is going to be pissed. The little speech to Timmy was the point of "Bad Boys" I thought. "Sometimes you have to hurt the ones you love in order to do what's best for you". Dean saved Sam for Dean. He knew that Sam would never consent to possession so he knows how hurt and angry Sam is going to be. If this whole storyline is another set up for Dean to call Sam a bitch and storm off than I will be disappointed. I hope it means that Dean will understand where Sam is coming from. And Zeke doesn't need to possess Dean he is already in one of the 2 strongest vessels on earth.
It is the opposite of Sam last year. Dean panicked and did what he had to do to save Sam. He knows it was a bad decision every which way. I think Sam will be maddest because Dean has offered himself up again for Sam. That is expressly what Head Sam did not want to happen. As for the posession...Fra nkly Zeke is healing Sam and helping Dean. He's not doing anything that is counter to Sam's being and identify like Meg, or Lucifer... yet. I think the biggest issue is the secrets and lying. Zeke is forcing Dean to be shady for Sam. That is the rub. Sure Sam should be mad about that but it is not the first time Dean withheld information will protect Sam. I am guessing after frank dialogue it will be the last. A reverse Sacrifice moment if you will.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-24 16:02
Castiels Cat.

I have / had no intention of arguing with you.

I have removed my post.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-24 16:02
Castiels Cat.

I have / had no intention of arguing with you.

I have removed my post.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 16:36
Castiels cat I personally love Jareds portrayal of Zeke. I hope we get a lot more this season. Dean has made a ton of mistakes. That is why we identify with him. He is the human pov that we the audience can relate to. That is what drew me to this show to begin with. All the supernatural crap happens to Sam and Dean has to deal with it in the best way the he can. I don't see that Dean has sacrificed himself to save Sam this season or last. Yes Zeke is trying to stay on Deans good side so that he won't prematurely tell Sam and be ejected before he and Sam are healed (I am one who believes that Ezekiel is a good guy). I don't really care if Sam has the same personal relationships with the other characters as Dean does. I think the intent is for Dean to be an open book (again easy for the audience to relate to) and Sam is supposed to be more reserved, afraid to get to close to others more of a mystery. The debt that Zeke is owed is that he is allowed to heal himself while healing Sam. I don't know that Dean will owe him anything. And yes I agree Dean saved Sam for Dean. He will always make that choice and we love him for it but those decisions always come with a price, sometimes a personal price sometimes a global one. Both Sam and Dean were vessels for very powerful angels but my own speculation is that Castiel is going to become the vessel of Ezekiel in order to restore heaven. As Hael said his vessel is very strong. Believe it or not Dean is a much loved character by most fans of SPN. I don't think anyone wants to see him fail. I just hope that the writing for the eventual payoff for this storyline doesn't end with a "hissy fit" from either character. Sure there is going to be hurt and anger but there should also be understanding and forgiveness from both brothers.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 16:36
Castiels cat I personally love Jareds portrayal of Zeke. I hope we get a lot more this season. Dean has made a ton of mistakes. That is why we identify with him. He is the human pov that we the audience can relate to. That is what drew me to this show to begin with. All the supernatural crap happens to Sam and Dean has to deal with it in the best way the he can. I don't see that Dean has sacrificed himself to save Sam this season or last. Yes Zeke is trying to stay on Deans good side so that he won't prematurely tell Sam and be ejected before he and Sam are healed (I am one who believes that Ezekiel is a good guy). I don't really care if Sam has the same personal relationships with the other characters as Dean does. I think the intent is for Dean to be an open book (again easy for the audience to relate to) and Sam is supposed to be more reserved, afraid to get to close to others more of a mystery. The debt that Zeke is owed is that he is allowed to heal himself while healing Sam. I don't know that Dean will owe him anything. And yes I agree Dean saved Sam for Dean. He will always make that choice and we love him for it but those decisions always come with a price, sometimes a personal price sometimes a global one. Both Sam and Dean were vessels for very powerful angels but my own speculation is that Castiel is going to become the vessel of Ezekiel in order to restore heaven. As Hael said his vessel is very strong. Believe it or not Dean is a much loved character by most fans of SPN. I don't think anyone wants to see him fail. I just hope that the writing for the eventual payoff for this storyline doesn't end with a "hissy fit" from either character. Sure there is going to be hurt and anger but there should also be understanding and forgiveness from both brothers.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 16:40
Elif, I and a lot of orher people watch a different show than you do here. There is no reinventing the wheel to try and fanon that Sam is perfect and bears no blame for anything he does. On other sites people actually discuss the plot as it apples to multiple characters, even Dean, cas, Crowley or Benny. There is not a lot of hand waving about Sam's friendships or lack thereof. P is far more interesting to speculate about what mught happen rather than what didn't hapoen or who isn't friends with a fictional character. Because I like Dean I am delighted that he is getting the mytharc. I am excited to see where it will lead. I am excited that Carver seems to be drawing on his abandoned backstory. Nobody on the show is perfect. Jensen beautifully portrayed Dean's emotional state in the premiere. He did his best under duress and he erred precisely in the way one would expect him to do. He knows it. We know it. Isn't it interesting to watch Dean's discomfort with what he has done and Zeke's words and Sam's suddenly happy demeanor. Frankly a Stepford Sam scenario is perfectly in keeping with a horror show.

So go ahead and mock me for daring to have original opinions. Y'all go ahead and mock me one after another in an attempt to shut me up and chase me away. I will continue to give my opinion about a tv show whenever I choose to and where.

Hey did you notice that they are still flagging Sam's need for redemption in I'm No Angel via the daisy duke hunter. Yes it was clumsy but it does demonstrate that a lot of people died because of Sam's choices, and Sam suffering doesn't really make that go away. Sam dedicating himself to hunting probably would. And before you drag out the tired refrain that dead Dean's actions in hell when he was dead count too... umm... there was this really interesting discussion on imbd and if you look at the language in the script it is clear that breaking Dean was the first seal. Alastair broke it like he broke many others. Anyway, Dean holds himself accountable for anything. He most likely will never think he's done enough, hero that he is.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 16:40
Elif, I and a lot of orher people watch a different show than you do here. There is no reinventing the wheel to try and fanon that Sam is perfect and bears no blame for anything he does. On other sites people actually discuss the plot as it apples to multiple characters, even Dean, cas, Crowley or Benny. There is not a lot of hand waving about Sam's friendships or lack thereof. P is far more interesting to speculate about what mught happen rather than what didn't hapoen or who isn't friends with a fictional character. Because I like Dean I am delighted that he is getting the mytharc. I am excited to see where it will lead. I am excited that Carver seems to be drawing on his abandoned backstory. Nobody on the show is perfect. Jensen beautifully portrayed Dean's emotional state in the premiere. He did his best under duress and he erred precisely in the way one would expect him to do. He knows it. We know it. Isn't it interesting to watch Dean's discomfort with what he has done and Zeke's words and Sam's suddenly happy demeanor. Frankly a Stepford Sam scenario is perfectly in keeping with a horror show.

So go ahead and mock me for daring to have original opinions. Y'all go ahead and mock me one after another in an attempt to shut me up and chase me away. I will continue to give my opinion about a tv show whenever I choose to and where.

Hey did you notice that they are still flagging Sam's need for redemption in I'm No Angel via the daisy duke hunter. Yes it was clumsy but it does demonstrate that a lot of people died because of Sam's choices, and Sam suffering doesn't really make that go away. Sam dedicating himself to hunting probably would. And before you drag out the tired refrain that dead Dean's actions in hell when he was dead count too... umm... there was this really interesting discussion on imbd and if you look at the language in the script it is clear that breaking Dean was the first seal. Alastair broke it like he broke many others. Anyway, Dean holds himself accountable for anything. He most likely will never think he's done enough, hero that he is.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 16:47
Cheryl42. Your ideas are interesting too. Do remember Abaddon calling Dean the perfect vessel. I think for character growth Sam, Castiel and Crowley are/will be humanized. A human Cas will better be able to put his past transgressions in perspective; to err is human after all. it seems to me that Dean is Zeke's focus. Wouldn't it be great for cas and Sam to help Dean for a change, instead of Dean cleaning up their messes. The parallels to season 2 suggest that Dean will pay a price for the deal. Last time it was his soul to a demon. This time I think it will be his body to an angel which makes sense and is rather poetic symmetry. Time will tell . in the meantime speculation is fun.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 16:47
Cheryl42. Your ideas are interesting too. Do remember Abaddon calling Dean the perfect vessel. I think for character growth Sam, Castiel and Crowley are/will be humanized. A human Cas will better be able to put his past transgressions in perspective; to err is human after all. it seems to me that Dean is Zeke's focus. Wouldn't it be great for cas and Sam to help Dean for a change, instead of Dean cleaning up their messes. The parallels to season 2 suggest that Dean will pay a price for the deal. Last time it was his soul to a demon. This time I think it will be his body to an angel which makes sense and is rather poetic symmetry. Time will tell . in the meantime speculation is fun.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 16:57
Ok who is trying to run you off this board. Just because some disagree with you doesn't mean you are wrong and they are right. All it means is that we come to this show with our own interpretations . The IMDB board is almost exclusively a Dean site and that is fine but there is hardly a balanced argument for the brothers. I have always found this site to be Dean and Sam friendly. Yes we all have our personal favorites but just because we don't see the show the same as you doesn't make our point of view any more or less wrong than yours. I imagine that your point of view will be just as protected by the rules of this site as anyone else. Sam friendly doesn't mean Dean hating.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 16:57
Ok who is trying to run you off this board. Just because some disagree with you doesn't mean you are wrong and they are right. All it means is that we come to this show with our own interpretations . The IMDB board is almost exclusively a Dean site and that is fine but there is hardly a balanced argument for the brothers. I have always found this site to be Dean and Sam friendly. Yes we all have our personal favorites but just because we don't see the show the same as you doesn't make our point of view any more or less wrong than yours. I imagine that your point of view will be just as protected by the rules of this site as anyone else. Sam friendly doesn't mean Dean hating.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 20:22
Quoting cheryl42:
Ok who is trying to run you off this board. Just because some disagree with you doesn't mean you are wrong and they are right. All it means is that we come to this show with our own interpretations. The IMDB board is almost exclusively a Dean site and that is fine but there is hardly a balanced argument for the brothers. I have always found this site to be Dean and Sam friendly. Yes we all have our
personal favorites but just because we don't see the
show the same as you doesn't make our point of view
any more or less wrong than yours. I imagine that you
r point of view will be just as protected by the rules of
this site as anyone else. Sam friendly doesn't mean
Dean hating.


It was past experiences and not with you. You enjoy discussion. Others try to shut it down by mocking opinions, claiming that someone is an awful person or not worth knowing because of an opinion, and reporting to administrator Sam bashing simply because one believes that the repeated emphasis on his choices means he will be getting a redemption arc.

I had been repeatedly warned not to ever come her because of the attitude and found what I have heard to be largely true of commenters but not administration.

I rarely comment on Imbd. There is good discussion there but also people that hate a difference of opinion and derail substantive talk. I prefer Innsmouth Free Press. There is a small group of people interested in discussion not fighting. The group has gotten pretty small lately because many folks have apparently dropped the show because they thought Dean was sidelined and domesticated (as in Sam's slave) last season. I didn't feel that way, but won't try to go into Dean's arcs here. They have Sleepy Hollow reviews (written by me) and Grimm too. Dracula soon. Everybody is behind this season. I am finishing up epusode 3.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 20:22
Quote:
Ok who is trying to run you off this board. Just because some disagree with you doesn't mean you are wrong and they are right. All it means is that we come to this show with our own interpretations. The IMDB board is almost exclusively a Dean site and that is fine but there is hardly a balanced argument for the brothers. I have always found this site to be Dean and Sam friendly. Yes we all have our
personal favorites but just because we don't see the
show the same as you doesn't make our point of view
any more or less wrong than yours. I imagine that you
r point of view will be just as protected by the rules of
this site as anyone else. Sam friendly doesn't mean
Dean hating.
It was past experiences and not with you. You enjoy discussion. Others try to shut it down by mocking opinions, claiming that someone is an awful person or not worth knowing because of an opinion, and reporting to administrator Sam bashing simply because one believes that the repeated emphasis on his choices means he will be getting a redemption arc.

I had been repeatedly warned not to ever come her because of the attitude and found what I have heard to be largely true of commenters but not administration.

I rarely comment on Imbd. There is good discussion there but also people that hate a difference of opinion and derail substantive talk. I prefer Innsmouth Free Press. There is a small group of people interested in discussion not fighting. The group has gotten pretty small lately because many folks have apparently dropped the show because they thought Dean was sidelined and domesticated (as in Sam's slave) last season. I didn't feel that way, but won't try to go into Dean's arcs here. They have Sleepy Hollow reviews (written by me) and Grimm too. Dracula soon. Everybody is behind this season. I am finishing up epusode 3.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 20:30
I forgot to add that in the premiere there was a visual shout out to Carver's point of No Return with Dean's angel kill. In point, killing Zachariah punctuated Dean's exit from the mytharc as a player. I am inclined to think that the reverse staging means he's jumping back in as a player. Again, time will tell. I studied art history in undergraduate with minors in film studies (criticism) and literature. So I tend to view subtext and visual clues as being meaningful. My sense of Carver is that he does too. He seemed to lay out season 8's thesis in the premiere and followed through with the main themes, especially regarding Sam and Dean, in the finale. I expect he did something similar for season 9.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-24 20:30
I forgot to add that in the premiere there was a visual shout out to Carver's point of No Return with Dean's angel kill. In point, killing Zachariah punctuated Dean's exit from the mytharc as a player. I am inclined to think that the reverse staging means he's jumping back in as a player. Again, time will tell. I studied art history in undergraduate with minors in film studies (criticism) and literature. So I tend to view subtext and visual clues as being meaningful. My sense of Carver is that he does too. He seemed to lay out season 8's thesis in the premiere and followed through with the main themes, especially regarding Sam and Dean, in the finale. I expect he did something similar for season 9.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 20:52
Well I find that as long as you are respectful to both brothers/actors you should not have a problem with most posters on this site. JC likes to weave a methodical tale that takes the entire season to come to fruition. The payoff in his previous episodes for SPN were written that way. I try not to read too much into these early episodes because like last season everything will probably take a completely unexpected turn. Generally the first half of the season is Dean heavy with the second half being more Sam centric. Since I adore both brothers and their bond I am here for the ride.
cheryl42
# cheryl42 2013-11-24 20:52
Well I find that as long as you are respectful to both brothers/actors you should not have a problem with most posters on this site. JC likes to weave a methodical tale that takes the entire season to come to fruition. The payoff in his previous episodes for SPN were written that way. I try not to read too much into these early episodes because like last season everything will probably take a completely unexpected turn. Generally the first half of the season is Dean heavy with the second half being more Sam centric. Since I adore both brothers and their bond I am here for the ride.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-25 01:11
Quoting castiels cat:
Elif, I and a lot of orher people watch a different show than you do here. There is no reinventing the wheel to try and fanon that Sam is perfect and bears no blame for anything he does. On other sites people actually discuss the plot as it apples to multiple characters, even Dean, cas, Crowley or Benny. There is not a lot of hand waving about Sam's friendships or lack thereof. P is far more interesting to speculate about what mught happen rather than what didn't hapoen or who isn't friends with a fictional character. Because I like Dean I am delighted that he is getting the mytharc. I am excited to see where it will lead. I am excited that Carver seems to be drawing on his abandoned backstory. Nobody on the show is perfect. Jensen beautifully portrayed Dean's emotional state in the premiere. He did his best under duress and he erred precisely in the way one would expect him to do. He knows it. We know it. Isn't it interesting to watch Dean's discomfort with what he has done and Zeke's words and Sam's suddenly happy demeanor. Frankly a Stepford Sam scenario is perfectly in keeping with a horror show.

So go ahead and mock me for daring to have original opinions. Y'all go ahead and mock me one after another in an attempt to shut me up and chase me away. I will continue to give my opinion about a tv show whenever I choose to and where.

Hey did you notice that they are still flagging Sam's need for redemption in I'm No Angel via the daisy duke hunter. Yes it was clumsy but it does demonstrate that a lot of people died because of Sam's choices, and Sam suffering doesn't really make that go away. Sam dedicating himself to hunting probably would. And before you drag out the tired refrain that dead Dean's actions in hell when he was dead count too... umm... there was this really interesting discussion on imbd and if you look at the language in the script it is clear that breaking Dean was the first seal. Alastair broke it like he broke many others. Anyway, Dean holds himself accountable for anything. He most likely will never think he's done enough, hero that he is.

Oh!castiel's cat as far as this conversation goes you are the one who started mocking not others.
Its your original comment that will set the tone of the replies.If you do not want to be mocked then don't mock.
Dean broke the first seal there is no escaping that.Unlike Sam there there has been no effort made by the writers after season 5 to show Dean even remembers his part.Dean accepting his part in season 5 like Sam did does not and should not make him forget that.
That most likely ( which I have bolded in your comment) is just that not a surety. Sam atleast is being called on for the things he has done "daisy duke hunter",Zachari ah, Dean ...what about Dean? No one knows about it and the way Dean acts he has just forgotten about it.
Me , you and eilf ( everyone) don't watch different show.It is we who are different.It is us who have different favorite characters.
I repeat,You don't mock others if you don't want to be mocked.Your comments suggest that you are blameless.Going by your original comment or your reply to eilf that would be a stretch .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-25 01:11
Quote:
Elif, I and a lot of orher people watch a different show than you do here. There is no reinventing the wheel to try and fanon that Sam is perfect and bears no blame for anything he does. On other sites people actually discuss the plot as it apples to multiple characters, even Dean, cas, Crowley or Benny. There is not a lot of hand waving about Sam's friendships or lack thereof. P is far more interesting to speculate about what mught happen rather than what didn't hapoen or who isn't friends with a fictional character. Because I like Dean I am delighted that he is getting the mytharc. I am excited to see where it will lead. I am excited that Carver seems to be drawing on his abandoned backstory. Nobody on the show is perfect. Jensen beautifully portrayed Dean's emotional state in the premiere. He did his best under duress and he erred precisely in the way one would expect him to do. He knows it. We know it. Isn't it interesting to watch Dean's discomfort with what he has done and Zeke's words and Sam's suddenly happy demeanor. Frankly a Stepford Sam scenario is perfectly in keeping with a horror show.

So go ahead and mock me for daring to have original opinions. Y'all go ahead and mock me one after another in an attempt to shut me up and chase me away. I will continue to give my opinion about a tv show whenever I choose to and where.

Hey did you notice that they are still flagging Sam's need for redemption in I'm No Angel via the daisy duke hunter. Yes it was clumsy but it does demonstrate that a lot of people died because of Sam's choices, and Sam suffering doesn't really make that go away. Sam dedicating himself to hunting probably would. And before you drag out the tired refrain that dead Dean's actions in hell when he was dead count too... umm... there was this really interesting discussion on imbd and if you look at the language in the script it is clear that breaking Dean was the first seal. Alastair broke it like he broke many others. Anyway, Dean holds himself accountable for anything. He most likely will never think he's done enough, hero that he is.
Oh!castiel's cat as far as this conversation goes you are the one who started mocking not others.
Its your original comment that will set the tone of the replies.If you do not want to be mocked then don't mock.
Dean broke the first seal there is no escaping that.Unlike Sam there there has been no effort made by the writers after season 5 to show Dean even remembers his part.Dean accepting his part in season 5 like Sam did does not and should not make him forget that.
That most likely ( which I have bolded in your comment) is just that not a surety. Sam atleast is being called on for the things he has done "daisy duke hunter",Zachari ah, Dean ...what about Dean? No one knows about it and the way Dean acts he has just forgotten about it.
Me , you and eilf ( everyone) don't watch different show.It is we who are different.It is us who have different favorite characters.
I repeat,You don't mock others if you don't want to be mocked.Your comments suggest that you are blameless.Going by your original comment or your reply to eilf that would be a stretch .
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 02:04
Usual disclaimers apply.
@79 & 80. leah d, Prix68, if you don’t feel that line was there to remind Sam and the viewers why Dean did it, then why was it there? Leaving it out would have made no difference to the action; Dean would still have been arrested and sent to the boy’s home so the line had to be there for a reason. Dean didn’t say ‘I knew we’d be hungry’ (presumably Dean does eat), he said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’. Why would the writers have him say that were it not to act as a subtle reminder to the audience that Sam was to the forefront of his mind as the reason why he was stealing?

@82 Sorry, Nate, I don’t. Like I said earlier, two words as opposed to seven episodes, on screen exposition as to why Dean trusted Benny, all of Sam’s explanations as to why he didn’t look for Dean told off screen? If you feel that’s equal exploration, fine but I’m a little greedier than that. I’d like a bit more equality, a bit more reciprocation (how long has it been since we’ve had a bit of reciprocity on this show??) and a bit more surety that what I believe is (or is close to being in the ballpark of) what the showrunner intended. I’m not saying that Sam can’t be explained, he can. However, I believe that it’s the fans that generally have to do the work when it comes to explaining Sam, because the show sure as hell doesn’t.

I also find the idea of there being no blowout to Dean’s actions to be pretty strange. Not just because the various blowouts to what Sam did in the past have usually lasted half a season or more (and been used against him years later), but I feel it would lessen Sam as a character because it denies him his right to be upset or angry or express any emotion as to what was done to him. It would also essentially mean that the show is endorsing the idea that you can do whatever you want to whomever you want as long as you believe that it is in their (or your) best interests that you do so. What the other person wants or needs bedamned. That’s a very dangerous and slippery slope. I certainly don’t want the blowout that we get to dominate the rest of the season, but allow him something. I know that Dean has to be forgiven, this is a TV show and Sam has always been the one to forgive easily and wholly, but allow us to firstly see him react to it and secondly, see him come to that forgiveness, not just go from A to Z and hey presto, instant forgiveness.

@85 I never said that I didn’t like the Ezekiel situation, I do (or I initially did). I liked the premise behind it because it is almost season 4ish; doing something you know is ‘wrong’ but for what you believe is the greater good. This is Dean’s equivalent of drinking demon blood. However, thus far, all the focus has been on the perpetrator of the ‘crime’, and not the victim. And the more we see of that, and the less of a build-up we get to Sam’s POV on the subject, the less Sam becomes a person and the more that he becomes a one dimensional character whom things are done for, and done to, for his perceived benefit.

I’m at the point where I’m starting to dislike what the Ezekiel situation has done to the perception of Sam and Dean’s relationship. I’ve been reading about all the appreciation of the bond being rebuilt and it’s making me uncomfortable because this present bond is built on the back of lies, manipulation and supernatural influence. Not only is the situation casting validity on all the brotherly moments but this is Sam and Becky on a grander scale. It’s like watching the wedding of two friends, one of whom we all know cheated on his/her new spouse just prior to the ceremony. I’m starting to feel dirty that I’m expected to cheer and clap every time there’s a significant ‘feel’.

Also, for me, if Carver was trying to resolve old tensions last season then he did a piss poor job of it. There was no trust gained at the end of season 8. Dean’s ‘If anyone needs a chaperone while doing the heavy lifting, it’s Sam’ shows that. So even if it is not what he meant (and we don’t know what Dean meant, just what he said), this is what Sam believes to be true. And unfortunately, that belief was not dispelled at the end of the episode where instead of trust and forgiveness being given we got how important Sam is to Dean and ‘Let it go’. I’m not saying it wasn’t a heartfelt scene but for me it certainly wasn’t a cure all.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 02:04
Usual disclaimers apply.
@79 & 80. leah d, Prix68, if you don’t feel that line was there to remind Sam and the viewers why Dean did it, then why was it there? Leaving it out would have made no difference to the action; Dean would still have been arrested and sent to the boy’s home so the line had to be there for a reason. Dean didn’t say ‘I knew we’d be hungry’ (presumably Dean does eat), he said ‘I knew you’d be hungry’. Why would the writers have him say that were it not to act as a subtle reminder to the audience that Sam was to the forefront of his mind as the reason why he was stealing?

@82 Sorry, Nate, I don’t. Like I said earlier, two words as opposed to seven episodes, on screen exposition as to why Dean trusted Benny, all of Sam’s explanations as to why he didn’t look for Dean told off screen? If you feel that’s equal exploration, fine but I’m a little greedier than that. I’d like a bit more equality, a bit more reciprocation (how long has it been since we’ve had a bit of reciprocity on this show??) and a bit more surety that what I believe is (or is close to being in the ballpark of) what the showrunner intended. I’m not saying that Sam can’t be explained, he can. However, I believe that it’s the fans that generally have to do the work when it comes to explaining Sam, because the show sure as hell doesn’t.

I also find the idea of there being no blowout to Dean’s actions to be pretty strange. Not just because the various blowouts to what Sam did in the past have usually lasted half a season or more (and been used against him years later), but I feel it would lessen Sam as a character because it denies him his right to be upset or angry or express any emotion as to what was done to him. It would also essentially mean that the show is endorsing the idea that you can do whatever you want to whomever you want as long as you believe that it is in their (or your) best interests that you do so. What the other person wants or needs bedamned. That’s a very dangerous and slippery slope. I certainly don’t want the blowout that we get to dominate the rest of the season, but allow him something. I know that Dean has to be forgiven, this is a TV show and Sam has always been the one to forgive easily and wholly, but allow us to firstly see him react to it and secondly, see him come to that forgiveness, not just go from A to Z and hey presto, instant forgiveness.

@85 I never said that I didn’t like the Ezekiel situation, I do (or I initially did). I liked the premise behind it because it is almost season 4ish; doing something you know is ‘wrong’ but for what you believe is the greater good. This is Dean’s equivalent of drinking demon blood. However, thus far, all the focus has been on the perpetrator of the ‘crime’, and not the victim. And the more we see of that, and the less of a build-up we get to Sam’s POV on the subject, the less Sam becomes a person and the more that he becomes a one dimensional character whom things are done for, and done to, for his perceived benefit.

I’m at the point where I’m starting to dislike what the Ezekiel situation has done to the perception of Sam and Dean’s relationship. I’ve been reading about all the appreciation of the bond being rebuilt and it’s making me uncomfortable because this present bond is built on the back of lies, manipulation and supernatural influence. Not only is the situation casting validity on all the brotherly moments but this is Sam and Becky on a grander scale. It’s like watching the wedding of two friends, one of whom we all know cheated on his/her new spouse just prior to the ceremony. I’m starting to feel dirty that I’m expected to cheer and clap every time there’s a significant ‘feel’.

Also, for me, if Carver was trying to resolve old tensions last season then he did a piss poor job of it. There was no trust gained at the end of season 8. Dean’s ‘If anyone needs a chaperone while doing the heavy lifting, it’s Sam’ shows that. So even if it is not what he meant (and we don’t know what Dean meant, just what he said), this is what Sam believes to be true. And unfortunately, that belief was not dispelled at the end of the episode where instead of trust and forgiveness being given we got how important Sam is to Dean and ‘Let it go’. I’m not saying it wasn’t a heartfelt scene but for me it certainly wasn’t a cure all.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 02:19
cont.

Ditto with the trials, this huge premise was set up to close the gates of hell, the climax which was the ‘So?’ and what happened after it. The listing of the sins was necessary for that, but the whole letting go thing just doesn’t work like that. Something that has been building inside of you (for both Sam and Dean) for years cannot simply be ‘let go’ because one requests it. And these sins don’t just need forgiveness, they need understanding because it’s not until they are understood can they be forgiven and then let go of. Dean can’t understand Sam’s sins because (up until 9.02, at least, when 'Sam's not the only guy who thought he was doing the right thing and watched it all go to crap; show he might not be thinking solely about Sam's 'sin' but also his intention) he fails to see what drove Sam to do them. And this is what is damn ironic (and tragic) about the situation because Dean has often done the exact same thing, with the exact same intentions, as Sam, but with different consequences. That is a realisation that Dean needs to come to. When Dean can say ‘Look Sam, I know why you went to a demon when I died. Jeez, I did the same thing’ ‘I know why you got close to Ruby, I did the same thing with Benny’ ‘I know why you drank blood and used your powers, you wanted to help save lives. I used the powers that were available to me to save Charlie and Castiel’ ‘I know why you ‘chose’ to go with Ruby. It was because you wanted to stop Lucifer’ or ‘I know why you didn’t look for me, it was because you were just too beat down or because you were afraid of the consequences of what might happen if you did. I did the same thing when Castiel was in Purgatory’ (Note: we don’t actually know why Sam or Dean didn’t look). When words like this can be spoken then Sam can (a) start to realise that the words Dean spoke in seasons 4 and 5 and 8 did not solely come from a place of condemnation and (b) realise that he actually is like his brother whom he has tried to be like his entire life and if he doesn't resent Dean for making those choices then he shouldn't resent himself either. When Sam can say to Dean ‘I know why Benny was important to you, and I know why you kept it from me’ (Again, we don’t know why Dean didn’t tell Sam about Benny) or when he has belief enough in the strength of their relationship to be able to say ‘This is why I did what I did’ without fear of belittlement or being considered a failure, then their relationship will heal, not merely by request to let things go. When they can understand and accept each other because of what they did, not in spite of what they did, then things can be let go. And when Carver gets the characters to that point, then he will have resolved issues, not when he has a character say ‘These are all your sins, but look, forget about them’.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 02:19
cont.

Ditto with the trials, this huge premise was set up to close the gates of hell, the climax which was the ‘So?’ and what happened after it. The listing of the sins was necessary for that, but the whole letting go thing just doesn’t work like that. Something that has been building inside of you (for both Sam and Dean) for years cannot simply be ‘let go’ because one requests it. And these sins don’t just need forgiveness, they need understanding because it’s not until they are understood can they be forgiven and then let go of. Dean can’t understand Sam’s sins because (up until 9.02, at least, when 'Sam's not the only guy who thought he was doing the right thing and watched it all go to crap; show he might not be thinking solely about Sam's 'sin' but also his intention) he fails to see what drove Sam to do them. And this is what is damn ironic (and tragic) about the situation because Dean has often done the exact same thing, with the exact same intentions, as Sam, but with different consequences. That is a realisation that Dean needs to come to. When Dean can say ‘Look Sam, I know why you went to a demon when I died. Jeez, I did the same thing’ ‘I know why you got close to Ruby, I did the same thing with Benny’ ‘I know why you drank blood and used your powers, you wanted to help save lives. I used the powers that were available to me to save Charlie and Castiel’ ‘I know why you ‘chose’ to go with Ruby. It was because you wanted to stop Lucifer’ or ‘I know why you didn’t look for me, it was because you were just too beat down or because you were afraid of the consequences of what might happen if you did. I did the same thing when Castiel was in Purgatory’ (Note: we don’t actually know why Sam or Dean didn’t look). When words like this can be spoken then Sam can (a) start to realise that the words Dean spoke in seasons 4 and 5 and 8 did not solely come from a place of condemnation and (b) realise that he actually is like his brother whom he has tried to be like his entire life and if he doesn't resent Dean for making those choices then he shouldn't resent himself either. When Sam can say to Dean ‘I know why Benny was important to you, and I know why you kept it from me’ (Again, we don’t know why Dean didn’t tell Sam about Benny) or when he has belief enough in the strength of their relationship to be able to say ‘This is why I did what I did’ without fear of belittlement or being considered a failure, then their relationship will heal, not merely by request to let things go. When they can understand and accept each other because of what they did, not in spite of what they did, then things can be let go. And when Carver gets the characters to that point, then he will have resolved issues, not when he has a character say ‘These are all your sins, but look, forget about them’.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-25 03:12
"And it is written, that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in Hell. As he breaks, so shall it break."—Castiel  quoting from the book of Revelation

As it is written Dean was the seal and Alastair broke him and thereby broke the seal. Dean may find fault with himself but that's his thing. Anyhow even if the language indicated that Dean broke the seal, he was dead.
castiels cat
# castiels cat 2013-11-25 03:12
"And it is written, that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in Hell. As he breaks, so shall it break."—Castiel  quoting from the book of Revelation

As it is written Dean was the seal and Alastair broke him and thereby broke the seal. Dean may find fault with himself but that's his thing. Anyhow even if the language indicated that Dean broke the seal, he was dead.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-25 05:19
Quoting castiels cat:


As it is written Dean was the seal and Alastair broke him and thereby broke the seal. Dean may find fault with himself but that's his thing.

The reason why Dean was that righteous person was because of Dean.Dean broke by torturing others.Quote:
Anyhow even if the language indicated that Dean broke the seal, he was dead.
What else can I say other than "Welcome to the world of Supernatural".
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2013-11-25 05:19
Quote:


As it is written Dean was the seal and Alastair broke him and thereby broke the seal. Dean may find fault with himself but that's his thing.
The reason why Dean was that righteous person was because of Dean.Dean broke by torturing others.Quote:
Anyhow even if the language indicated that Dean broke the seal, he was dead.
What else can I say other than "Welcome to the world of Supernatural".
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-25 08:33
Quoting JuliaG:
Nate, I understand it would be nice for you if Sam was all understanding about the Zeke possession and didn't get mad. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that all the stuff with Ruby in season 4 stemmed from Sam's grief over Dean's death and once he started to use his powers and drink demon blood, there was no going back. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that Sam lied because he craved Dean's approval and was afraid of disappointing him. But he ended up being angry for a whole season because he's human and got hurt. Sam is going to be hurt too, like Dean was.


JuliaG,
Not nice for me, nice for the series, if Sam is understanding about the Zeke hotel. JC and TPTB have talked since S8 about how the boys are maturing now that they are into their 30’s. They are not the same two brothers sitting in the car having the conversations they did when they were younger, as JC said at ComicCon last year. You are correct at those past events, but those were several years ago. It would be a true shock or twist if Sam is more understanding. I personally think there will be a blow out and fight, conflict, etc., because that is what we’ve seen in the past. I’d like to see JC and TPTB show us some of the talked about maturity growth.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-25 08:33
Quote:
Nate, I understand it would be nice for you if Sam was all understanding about the Zeke possession and didn't get mad. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that all the stuff with Ruby in season 4 stemmed from Sam's grief over Dean's death and once he started to use his powers and drink demon blood, there was no going back. It would also have been nice if Dean understood that Sam lied because he craved Dean's approval and was afraid of disappointing him. But he ended up being angry for a whole season because he's human and got hurt. Sam is going to be hurt too, like Dean was.
JuliaG,
Not nice for me, nice for the series, if Sam is understanding about the Zeke hotel. JC and TPTB have talked since S8 about how the boys are maturing now that they are into their 30’s. They are not the same two brothers sitting in the car having the conversations they did when they were younger, as JC said at ComicCon last year. You are correct at those past events, but those were several years ago. It would be a true shock or twist if Sam is more understanding. I personally think there will be a blow out and fight, conflict, etc., because that is what we’ve seen in the past. I’d like to see JC and TPTB show us some of the talked about maturity growth.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-25 15:00
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.

Castiel's Cat, Dean is responsible for breaking the first seal, not because he broke under torture (everybody would have) but because he made a deal with a demon and got himself sent to Hell, exactly where Alistair wanted him. It's very much like when Sam started to drink demon blood and use his powers and Ruby had him where she wanted him.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-25 15:00
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.

Castiel's Cat, Dean is responsible for breaking the first seal, not because he broke under torture (everybody would have) but because he made a deal with a demon and got himself sent to Hell, exactly where Alistair wanted him. It's very much like when Sam started to drink demon blood and use his powers and Ruby had him where she wanted him.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-25 15:55
Quoting JuliaG:
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.

JuliaG, I should have clarified (I did in previous posts) I know Sam will react. Of course he will, there is/was an Angel inside of him, I would react too. Sam at this point should know Dean will make the decision to save Sam, over and over again, whatever the situation. Dean knows Sam may be very upset, but alive and upset is better than the other option. I would like to see Sam's reaction not be similiar to the reactions in the past (by each brother who was left in the dark). Sam should know Dean, even knowing Sam may have been ready to die, would chose almost any method to save Sam. NOT say a demon possession or something like that, but this option involved an Angel that Cas gave thumbs-up to. Dean also will always look for a way to bring Sam back (S6), even when promising not to. My opinion is that would be a more mature response than we have seen in the past. Sam probably will be hurt, feel lied to, etc. but should not be surprised Dean did what he did. In the end, Sam will be alive and strong. When Sam advised Death he was ready to go, he didn't know Dean found a way to cure him from the trials, and repair him back to health. I don't think after all is revealed, Sam will say "I still wish I would have died." My guess is Sam eventually will say thank you. I just hope it doesn't take all season for this to play out.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-25 15:55
Quote:
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.
JuliaG, I should have clarified (I did in previous posts) I know Sam will react. Of course he will, there is/was an Angel inside of him, I would react too. Sam at this point should know Dean will make the decision to save Sam, over and over again, whatever the situation. Dean knows Sam may be very upset, but alive and upset is better than the other option. I would like to see Sam's reaction not be similiar to the reactions in the past (by each brother who was left in the dark). Sam should know Dean, even knowing Sam may have been ready to die, would chose almost any method to save Sam. NOT say a demon possession or something like that, but this option involved an Angel that Cas gave thumbs-up to. Dean also will always look for a way to bring Sam back (S6), even when promising not to. My opinion is that would be a more mature response than we have seen in the past. Sam probably will be hurt, feel lied to, etc. but should not be surprised Dean did what he did. In the end, Sam will be alive and strong. When Sam advised Death he was ready to go, he didn't know Dean found a way to cure him from the trials, and repair him back to health. I don't think after all is revealed, Sam will say "I still wish I would have died." My guess is Sam eventually will say thank you. I just hope it doesn't take all season for this to play out.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-25 16:35
Hi Nate,

I look at the situation differently, more from Sam's perspective, because he's the victim in all of this. I'm sure that Sam knows how far Dean will go to save him, but it doesn't mean that he has to accept it.

I don't agree that Sam shouldn't be surprised at the possession. Dean knows his history. He knows that Sam would rather die than be possessed by an angel. Dean said so himself in the opener. How could Sam even consider that Dean would betray him like that?

See, you hope that Sam will understand why Dean did what he did and eventually thank him for it, but I hope that Dean will finally realize that there are lines you do not cross, not for anything, and apologizes for not respecting Sam's wishes. It's about free will for Sam as well, a major theme of the show.

So we seem to be at opposite ends in this.
JuliaG
# JuliaG 2013-11-25 16:35
Hi Nate,

I look at the situation differently, more from Sam's perspective, because he's the victim in all of this. I'm sure that Sam knows how far Dean will go to save him, but it doesn't mean that he has to accept it.

I don't agree that Sam shouldn't be surprised at the possession. Dean knows his history. He knows that Sam would rather die than be possessed by an angel. Dean said so himself in the opener. How could Sam even consider that Dean would betray him like that?

See, you hope that Sam will understand why Dean did what he did and eventually thank him for it, but I hope that Dean will finally realize that there are lines you do not cross, not for anything, and apologizes for not respecting Sam's wishes. It's about free will for Sam as well, a major theme of the show.

So we seem to be at opposite ends in this.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 17:30
@123
Sorry Nate, but I have phenomenal issue with what you’re saying here.

If Sam knows that Dean will choose to save him again and again, despite the situation then this is a worry. This is essentially putting Sam in a new kind of Cage and making Dean a new kind of Lucifer because he will not let Sam die, not because it is what is best for Sam or what Sam wants, but because it’s what Dean wants/needs.

In relation to the better upset and alive argument, this was my argument when it came to John; that he was okay with his sons feeling isolated, unloved, unhappy, treated as soldiers etc, as long as they were alive. However, the show has proven how damaging to both characters that attitude was. If it’s a case of alive being the be all and end all, then Dean should have been okay with Soulless Sam because technically he was alive. However, back in season 4 Dean said that he’d rather Sam die than be something inhuman. Sam certainly wanted to die rather than be something inhuman. And the ‘other option’ here was being at peace, for once. As the show has shown us from the beginning, there are far worse things than being dead.

If Dean will choose any method to save Sam, even knowing what Sam wants, then in order for Sam to get what he wants, what he needs, it seems that his only option is to isolate himself totally from Dean. If Dean keeps doing what he believes is best for Sam and not what Sam believes is best for himself then there is no trust, no respect and no free will. Sam will metaphorically be kept on a leash inside in a padded room where the only thing that will be affected is his sanity, but will that be okay because Sam will be saved ie alive?

And Sam does know Dean, this is why he wanted to ensure that he could not be brought back, so as to stop the same mistakes of the past that have been so detrimental to both of them, and the world at large, being repeated. However, as much as Sam knows Dean, he could not know that his brother would violate his body and mind in such a matter. If Sam should know that Dean would do whatever it takes, then why has Dean not told him about it yet? If he knows Dean, then he should know that it is best to just go along with whatever Dean decides for him because no matter what he tries to do, Dean will supersede his decision anyway.

Not using all the options available to him brings us into the Sam didn’t look argument, whereby if Sam did start looking then how could he reconcile himself with the fact that he could go so far but no further. He could make a deal with an angel but not a demon etc. Maybe he could dabble in white magic but not black magic. Sam took on the worst, most powerful evil in the world and won. Should he have done so again and hoped he’d be able to triumph again, in order to save Dean? Here you are saying that Dean would say yes to an angel but no to a demon or something like that. Would he say yes to demon blood? Would he say yes to the Alpha Vampire? Would he say yes to Michael?

However, whether it was an angel, demon, ghost or a packet of jelly beans, possession is possession. Angels have been proven to be far more detrimental to humanity than any demon. Hell, Lucifer was an angel! Look at Michael, Zachariah, Uriel, all angels and all mad keen for the Apocalypse. Demons have proven to be more of an ally to Sam and Dean than any angel (Meg and even Crowley to a certain extent).

And when Dean heard Castiel give Ezekiel the thumbs up, he should have taken Sam and headed for the hills because those whom Castiel trusts, generally not at all trustworthy.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 17:30
@123
Sorry Nate, but I have phenomenal issue with what you’re saying here.

If Sam knows that Dean will choose to save him again and again, despite the situation then this is a worry. This is essentially putting Sam in a new kind of Cage and making Dean a new kind of Lucifer because he will not let Sam die, not because it is what is best for Sam or what Sam wants, but because it’s what Dean wants/needs.

In relation to the better upset and alive argument, this was my argument when it came to John; that he was okay with his sons feeling isolated, unloved, unhappy, treated as soldiers etc, as long as they were alive. However, the show has proven how damaging to both characters that attitude was. If it’s a case of alive being the be all and end all, then Dean should have been okay with Soulless Sam because technically he was alive. However, back in season 4 Dean said that he’d rather Sam die than be something inhuman. Sam certainly wanted to die rather than be something inhuman. And the ‘other option’ here was being at peace, for once. As the show has shown us from the beginning, there are far worse things than being dead.

If Dean will choose any method to save Sam, even knowing what Sam wants, then in order for Sam to get what he wants, what he needs, it seems that his only option is to isolate himself totally from Dean. If Dean keeps doing what he believes is best for Sam and not what Sam believes is best for himself then there is no trust, no respect and no free will. Sam will metaphorically be kept on a leash inside in a padded room where the only thing that will be affected is his sanity, but will that be okay because Sam will be saved ie alive?

And Sam does know Dean, this is why he wanted to ensure that he could not be brought back, so as to stop the same mistakes of the past that have been so detrimental to both of them, and the world at large, being repeated. However, as much as Sam knows Dean, he could not know that his brother would violate his body and mind in such a matter. If Sam should know that Dean would do whatever it takes, then why has Dean not told him about it yet? If he knows Dean, then he should know that it is best to just go along with whatever Dean decides for him because no matter what he tries to do, Dean will supersede his decision anyway.

Not using all the options available to him brings us into the Sam didn’t look argument, whereby if Sam did start looking then how could he reconcile himself with the fact that he could go so far but no further. He could make a deal with an angel but not a demon etc. Maybe he could dabble in white magic but not black magic. Sam took on the worst, most powerful evil in the world and won. Should he have done so again and hoped he’d be able to triumph again, in order to save Dean? Here you are saying that Dean would say yes to an angel but no to a demon or something like that. Would he say yes to demon blood? Would he say yes to the Alpha Vampire? Would he say yes to Michael?

However, whether it was an angel, demon, ghost or a packet of jelly beans, possession is possession. Angels have been proven to be far more detrimental to humanity than any demon. Hell, Lucifer was an angel! Look at Michael, Zachariah, Uriel, all angels and all mad keen for the Apocalypse. Demons have proven to be more of an ally to Sam and Dean than any angel (Meg and even Crowley to a certain extent).

And when Dean heard Castiel give Ezekiel the thumbs up, he should have taken Sam and headed for the hills because those whom Castiel trusts, generally not at all trustworthy.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 17:34
Sam be alive and well at the end of it but he will also be a a puppet. He will have been violated. He will have been lied to. He will have had agency taken away from him. He have trust taken away from him. His self worth will be in the toilet (again). He will have been used to serve the purpose of another. He will have been used for another’s gain (Castiel and Charlie). He will not be able to trust any decision or action that he takes because he won't know who or what is making the decision. His mind will be in tatters because now he’s had an angel rummaging around in there doing God knows what. And that is what he is left with if Ezekiel is on the up and up. If he’s not then who know what Sam will be; the face behind another Apocalypse? The last face his brother/angels/ vessels/demons/ innocents see before they die? Worse off than ever before? Left with some sort of angelic influence? The knowledge that Dean made a deal with an angel (and we still don't know what Ezekiel wants from Dean)? It can’t be a case of ‘Shur, you’re fine, what are you complaining about?’ Sam’s body might be alive and strong but what about his mind? What about his soul? If Dean’s only concern is that Sam will be alive and strong, then what was his problem with Soulless Sam, or when he was possessed or when he was drinking demon blood or when he was Lucifer? Wasn’t he alive and strong then? Sorry, Nate but I think this whole ends justify the means thing is a serious copout.

If Sam is not surprised by what Dean did, then any semblance of a relationship that they have is over because it shows that Sam is not his brother, he's not even a person; he's merely an object for Dean to define himself by. If Sam is not surprised then that famous brotherly bond will be nothing more than a totalitarian dictatorship where there is one person exercising absolute control over the most basic human rights of another person.

And Nate, if Sam thanks Dean for what he did then I will vomit. That would be like Dean thanking Sam for starting the Apocalypse because it all worked out fine in the end. Or Sam thanking Ruby for the demon blood because he used use it to beat Lucifer. Or John thanking YED for killing Mary because it made their sons closer.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-25 17:34
Sam be alive and well at the end of it but he will also be a a puppet. He will have been violated. He will have been lied to. He will have had agency taken away from him. He have trust taken away from him. His self worth will be in the toilet (again). He will have been used to serve the purpose of another. He will have been used for another’s gain (Castiel and Charlie). He will not be able to trust any decision or action that he takes because he won't know who or what is making the decision. His mind will be in tatters because now he’s had an angel rummaging around in there doing God knows what. And that is what he is left with if Ezekiel is on the up and up. If he’s not then who know what Sam will be; the face behind another Apocalypse? The last face his brother/angels/ vessels/demons/ innocents see before they die? Worse off than ever before? Left with some sort of angelic influence? The knowledge that Dean made a deal with an angel (and we still don't know what Ezekiel wants from Dean)? It can’t be a case of ‘Shur, you’re fine, what are you complaining about?’ Sam’s body might be alive and strong but what about his mind? What about his soul? If Dean’s only concern is that Sam will be alive and strong, then what was his problem with Soulless Sam, or when he was possessed or when he was drinking demon blood or when he was Lucifer? Wasn’t he alive and strong then? Sorry, Nate but I think this whole ends justify the means thing is a serious copout.

If Sam is not surprised by what Dean did, then any semblance of a relationship that they have is over because it shows that Sam is not his brother, he's not even a person; he's merely an object for Dean to define himself by. If Sam is not surprised then that famous brotherly bond will be nothing more than a totalitarian dictatorship where there is one person exercising absolute control over the most basic human rights of another person.

And Nate, if Sam thanks Dean for what he did then I will vomit. That would be like Dean thanking Sam for starting the Apocalypse because it all worked out fine in the end. Or Sam thanking Ruby for the demon blood because he used use it to beat Lucifer. Or John thanking YED for killing Mary because it made their sons closer.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-11-25 18:33
Tim@ 117- I don't have a problem with the idea that it might have been a reminder to the audience that Dean did it primarily for Sam. Where I differ is that it was done for the "subtle" purpose of making young Sam look responsible and by extension making current Sam potentially look bad for having a bad reaction to the Ezekiel situation. I don't buy that the writers meant that at all. My position is that the episode was supposed to be a touchy feely nostalgic look at the brothers past AND bond right before the show blows it all up for the drama and angst. I will not believe that the writers are setting Sam up to look bad for being upset at Dean. Most of the posters here are in agreement that Sam has every right to be furious at Dean. And most of us feel he will forgive him sooner or later. Dean has a lot of flack for his actions but still some are worried that Sam will come out looking bad.
leah d.
# leah d. 2013-11-25 18:33
Tim@ 117- I don't have a problem with the idea that it might have been a reminder to the audience that Dean did it primarily for Sam. Where I differ is that it was done for the "subtle" purpose of making young Sam look responsible and by extension making current Sam potentially look bad for having a bad reaction to the Ezekiel situation. I don't buy that the writers meant that at all. My position is that the episode was supposed to be a touchy feely nostalgic look at the brothers past AND bond right before the show blows it all up for the drama and angst. I will not believe that the writers are setting Sam up to look bad for being upset at Dean. Most of the posters here are in agreement that Sam has every right to be furious at Dean. And most of us feel he will forgive him sooner or later. Dean has a lot of flack for his actions but still some are worried that Sam will come out looking bad.
E
# E 2013-11-25 20:06
Quoting Nate:
Quoting JuliaG:
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.

JuliaG, I should have clarified (I did in previous posts) I know Sam will react. Of course he will, there is/was an Angel inside of him, I would react too. Sam at this point should know Dean will make the decision to save Sam, over and over again, whatever the situation. Dean knows Sam may be very upset, but alive and upset is better than the other option. I would like to see Sam's reaction not be similiar to the reactions in the past (by each brother who was left in the dark). Sam should know Dean, even knowing Sam may have been ready to die, would chose almost any method to save Sam. NOT say a demon possession or something like that, but this option involved an Angel that Cas gave thumbs-up to. Dean also will always look for a way to bring Sam back (S6), even when promising not to. My opinion is that would be a more mature response than we have seen in the past. Sam probably will be hurt, feel lied to, etc. but should not be surprised Dean did what he did. In the end, Sam will be alive and strong. When Sam advised Death he was ready to go, he didn't know Dean found a way to cure him from the trials, and repair him back to health. I don't think after all is revealed, Sam will say "I still wish I would have died." My guess is Sam eventually will say thank you. I just hope it doesn't take all season for this to play out.


So, in other words, you expect Sam to show all of the brothers new found maturity by having him not get angry or react badly to what Dean has done despite the fact that it went against his express wishes, but you don't expect Dean to show that he has matured in any way in how he understands Sam or in the decisions he makes on his brothers behalf? Dean has always done what he's done, therefore Sam should understand it, but Sam himself should change the way he reacts because why? Because it's Dean and Dean never changes, or because Sam's mature now? I see….Dean gets to continue making the same mistakes time and time again and never learn from them and that's OK and Sam should just expect this from Dean, but Sam is expected to react differently because he's "mature" now? Huh…that's a pretty glaring double standard you got going there.
E
# E 2013-11-25 20:06
Quote:
Quote:
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.
JuliaG, I should have clarified (I did in previous posts) I know Sam will react. Of course he will, there is/was an Angel inside of him, I would react too. Sam at this point should know Dean will make the decision to save Sam, over and over again, whatever the situation. Dean knows Sam may be very upset, but alive and upset is better than the other option. I would like to see Sam's reaction not be similiar to the reactions in the past (by each brother who was left in the dark). Sam should know Dean, even knowing Sam may have been ready to die, would chose almost any method to save Sam. NOT say a demon possession or something like that, but this option involved an Angel that Cas gave thumbs-up to. Dean also will always look for a way to bring Sam back (S6), even when promising not to. My opinion is that would be a more mature response than we have seen in the past. Sam probably will be hurt, feel lied to, etc. but should not be surprised Dean did what he did. In the end, Sam will be alive and strong. When Sam advised Death he was ready to go, he didn't know Dean found a way to cure him from the trials, and repair him back to health. I don't think after all is revealed, Sam will say "I still wish I would have died." My guess is Sam eventually will say thank you. I just hope it doesn't take all season for this to play out.
So, in other words, you expect Sam to show all of the brothers new found maturity by having him not get angry or react badly to what Dean has done despite the fact that it went against his express wishes, but you don't expect Dean to show that he has matured in any way in how he understands Sam or in the decisions he makes on his brothers behalf? Dean has always done what he's done, therefore Sam should understand it, but Sam himself should change the way he reacts because why? Because it's Dean and Dean never changes, or because Sam's mature now? I see….Dean gets to continue making the same mistakes time and time again and never learn from them and that's OK and Sam should just expect this from Dean, but Sam is expected to react differently because he's "mature" now? Huh…that's a pretty glaring double standard you got going there.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-26 08:58
[quote name="Tim the Enchanter"]quote]
Tim, again I appreciate your comments, but at this point I've shared my opinions and views on this, then anything I write is picked apart by paragraphs from you. I believe what I do. The passion you share for your views are the same I have for mine.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-26 08:58
quote]
Tim, again I appreciate your comments, but at this point I've shared my opinions and views on this, then anything I write is picked apart by paragraphs from you. I believe what I do. The passion you share for your views are the same I have for mine.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-26 09:14
Quoting E:
Quoting Nate:
Quoting JuliaG:
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.

JuliaG, I should have clarified (I did in previous posts) I know Sam will react. Of course he will, there is/was an Angel inside of him, I would react too. Sam at this point should know Dean will make the decision to save Sam, over and over again, whatever the situation. Dean knows Sam may be very upset, but alive and upset is better than the other option. I would like to see Sam's reaction not be similiar to the reactions in the past (by each brother who was left in the dark). Sam should know Dean, even knowing Sam may have been ready to die, would chose almost any method to save Sam. NOT say a demon possession or something like that, but this option involved an Angel that Cas gave thumbs-up to. Dean also will always look for a way to bring Sam back (S6), even when promising not to. My opinion is that would be a more mature response than we have seen in the past. Sam probably will be hurt, feel lied to, etc. but should not be surprised Dean did what he did. In the end, Sam will be alive and strong. When Sam advised Death he was ready to go, he didn't know Dean found a way to cure him from the trials, and repair him back to health. I don't think after all is revealed, Sam will say "I still wish I would have died." My guess is Sam eventually will say thank you. I just hope it doesn't take all season for this to play out.


So, in other words.....
Hi E. No, your "in other words" is not how I feel. I never said Sam should change how he is going to react (he actually hasn't reacted yet). I have commented several times how I would like to see him react, but the way I would like to see him react is not what I expect to actually happen. I don't agree with your double standard, I don't see it that way. I see this as a brother who had to make a decision to try and save his brother's life. Sam did not know Dean had a potential way to save his life. If Death had said to Sam "You are ready, BUT, FYI Dean has a way to save you. What do you choose?" My opinion is Sam would chose to live. It goes back to his speech in "Trial and Error." That's my opinion.
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-26 09:14
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Nate, maturity and character growth doesn't mean Sam shouldn't react to what happened to him. It would be human for him to.

It's not just the Zeke hotel as you call it: It's Dean steamrolling over Sam's wishes even though he heard them. It's Dean's agreement to let Sam be possessed by an angel even though he knew that Sam would rather die than let that happen, given his history. It's about months of lies, from someone who hates being lied to. It's HUGE. How can Sam not get angry? No matter how mature he is, he is first and foremost human, and he'll be incredibly hurt by this, even if he understand where Dean was coming from.
JuliaG, I should have clarified (I did in previous posts) I know Sam will react. Of course he will, there is/was an Angel inside of him, I would react too. Sam at this point should know Dean will make the decision to save Sam, over and over again, whatever the situation. Dean knows Sam may be very upset, but alive and upset is better than the other option. I would like to see Sam's reaction not be similiar to the reactions in the past (by each brother who was left in the dark). Sam should know Dean, even knowing Sam may have been ready to die, would chose almost any method to save Sam. NOT say a demon possession or something like that, but this option involved an Angel that Cas gave thumbs-up to. Dean also will always look for a way to bring Sam back (S6), even when promising not to. My opinion is that would be a more mature response than we have seen in the past. Sam probably will be hurt, feel lied to, etc. but should not be surprised Dean did what he did. In the end, Sam will be alive and strong. When Sam advised Death he was ready to go, he didn't know Dean found a way to cure him from the trials, and repair him back to health. I don't think after all is revealed, Sam will say "I still wish I would have died." My guess is Sam eventually will say thank you. I just hope it doesn't take all season for this to play out.
So, in other words.....
Hi E. No, your "in other words" is not how I feel. I never said Sam should change how he is going to react (he actually hasn't reacted yet). I have commented several times how I would like to see him react, but the way I would like to see him react is not what I expect to actually happen. I don't agree with your double standard, I don't see it that way. I see this as a brother who had to make a decision to try and save his brother's life. Sam did not know Dean had a potential way to save his life. If Death had said to Sam "You are ready, BUT, FYI Dean has a way to save you. What do you choose?" My opinion is Sam would chose to live. It goes back to his speech in "Trial and Error." That's my opinion.
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-26 11:46
@129 Not quite sure how to respond to that, Nate. I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, and I believed I was counter-arguing , not tearing apart. I use quotes for coherence and to make it easier for me to argue. However, the quotes have been removed.

In relation to wanting there to be a reaction, in truth, I do want there to be a reaction, and a fairly hefty one. This is NOT because I want Dean to feel bad or to grovel or because I want Sam to use it against him years down the line but because, for me, consent is a major thing. Generally that magnitude of a crime on this show is not measured in terms of what a person does, but in the reaction of others to it. (And this is true in life as well. If I do not report, or if I downplay, a crime against me, then it's not an issue.) For example, had Dean not said ‘You picked a demon over your own brother’ and used it then that would not have been the sticking point in their relationship for Sam and Dean, and the fans, for years. That would have allowed viewers to look at why Sam did it without getting caught up in the ‘This is how it impacted Dean’ idea, and this would have made for a much more understandable situation. Not only that, if Sam does not react to this, or dismisses it, or thanks Dean for it, then it will essentially give the A-ok for it to be done again when and if the situation arise.

That being said, let's wait and see what happens. .
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2013-11-26 11:46
@129 Not quite sure how to respond to that, Nate. I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, and I believed I was counter-arguing , not tearing apart. I use quotes for coherence and to make it easier for me to argue. However, the quotes have been removed.

In relation to wanting there to be a reaction, in truth, I do want there to be a reaction, and a fairly hefty one. This is NOT because I want Dean to feel bad or to grovel or because I want Sam to use it against him years down the line but because, for me, consent is a major thing. Generally that magnitude of a crime on this show is not measured in terms of what a person does, but in the reaction of others to it. (And this is true in life as well. If I do not report, or if I downplay, a crime against me, then it's not an issue.) For example, had Dean not said ‘You picked a demon over your own brother’ and used it then that would not have been the sticking point in their relationship for Sam and Dean, and the fans, for years. That would have allowed viewers to look at why Sam did it without getting caught up in the ‘This is how it impacted Dean’ idea, and this would have made for a much more understandable situation. Not only that, if Sam does not react to this, or dismisses it, or thanks Dean for it, then it will essentially give the A-ok for it to be done again when and if the situation arise.

That being said, let's wait and see what happens. .
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-11-26 13:09
What a terrific discussion you all are having. I agree with much of each. For myself, I hope Sam is angry but more than that, I hope he is hurt ( I want to see and feel the pain). Then I am hoping he eventually sees that he made the choice to trust his brother, he wanted to live and grabbed on to and had faith in Dean's plan without question (although, if he had come up with the solution himself without Dean's knowledge, well Dean would be mad- and that I would like to see Dean eventually come to terms with). I want to see and hear Dean apologize without caveats. The issue then comes from Dean's removing Sam's free will in the aftermath. That should be the basis of a deeper & longer pain, something I am hoping Dean learns from. The next few months could be used to see both our boys grow up a little, but i am hoping for some good tension episodes until they find that point in their oft twisted and manipulated relationship where they can relate to and understand eachother's flaws as adults. We will just have to wait and see how this plays out.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-11-26 13:09
What a terrific discussion you all are having. I agree with much of each. For myself, I hope Sam is angry but more than that, I hope he is hurt ( I want to see and feel the pain). Then I am hoping he eventually sees that he made the choice to trust his brother, he wanted to live and grabbed on to and had faith in Dean's plan without question (although, if he had come up with the solution himself without Dean's knowledge, well Dean would be mad- and that I would like to see Dean eventually come to terms with). I want to see and hear Dean apologize without caveats. The issue then comes from Dean's removing Sam's free will in the aftermath. That should be the basis of a deeper & longer pain, something I am hoping Dean learns from. The next few months could be used to see both our boys grow up a little, but i am hoping for some good tension episodes until they find that point in their oft twisted and manipulated relationship where they can relate to and understand eachother's flaws as adults. We will just have to wait and see how this plays out.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-26 13:11
Good, polarizing opinions, as usual. Show is definitely still doing something right.

Can’t see anybody here totally wrong or right (also as usual). Have to see how the f. show is going to resolve this, because I can’t see a way to satisfy everybody (as usual again). I hope they keep on NOT telling us what is the “right” answer, because I like this back and forth.
Ale
# Ale 2013-11-26 13:11
Good, polarizing opinions, as usual. Show is definitely still doing something right.

Can’t see anybody here totally wrong or right (also as usual). Have to see how the f. show is going to resolve this, because I can’t see a way to satisfy everybody (as usual again). I hope they keep on NOT telling us what is the “right” answer, because I like this back and forth.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-26 14:48
Honestly if there was ever a moment for maturity and understanding the other brother’s point of view and accepting the best of intentions by a brother who simply didn't know what else to do it was Dean last season when Sam assumed Dean was dead.

The fact that the show didn’t go there then means that if they go there now forever the only person who is right about important things is Dean.

Dean could have accepted that Sam assumed his death and mourned for him and let him go. Sam has been there for him through thick and thin for his entire life. Dean could have been briefly angry. He could have raged and then let it go. After all from Dean's point of view Purgatory eventually helped him let go of a lot of his rage and pain and his drinking, he came out feeling pure in some way. It wasn't like he was strung up on hooks being torn to pieces. He was in a war zone, and he had people fighting on his side, and he WON.

So that would have been mature, a departure from old hurts, an understanding of the brothers’ pain and hopelessness wouldn't it?

However by the last episode of the season this mistake by Sam had been conflated by Dean with anything else Sam had ever done or not done or had had happen to him and was being interpreted as active willful negligence, a sign that Sam didn't love Dean, by both Dean and anyone who wanted to look at it that way. The only bit of Dean's life that hadn't been purified by Purgatory was the conflict he feels over his responsibility for his brother and the expectations he has of Sam's behavior as a result.

So, then we have this situation, and to say 'well this time it should be different, Sam should know that Dean would only do this thing he knows Sam would hate more than anything because he loves Sam. Sam should thank Dean for doing it?’ Really?

Would Dean? Would Dean thank Sam for allowing Michael to possess Dean? Would he be grateful? Would he understand? Did he understand that Sam also sacrificed in letting him go last season? Before you answer that remember all the times over the years Dean has called Sam a freak, and remember how much Sam told Dean he was hurt by that designation.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-26 14:48
Honestly if there was ever a moment for maturity and understanding the other brother’s point of view and accepting the best of intentions by a brother who simply didn't know what else to do it was Dean last season when Sam assumed Dean was dead.

The fact that the show didn’t go there then means that if they go there now forever the only person who is right about important things is Dean.

Dean could have accepted that Sam assumed his death and mourned for him and let him go. Sam has been there for him through thick and thin for his entire life. Dean could have been briefly angry. He could have raged and then let it go. After all from Dean's point of view Purgatory eventually helped him let go of a lot of his rage and pain and his drinking, he came out feeling pure in some way. It wasn't like he was strung up on hooks being torn to pieces. He was in a war zone, and he had people fighting on his side, and he WON.

So that would have been mature, a departure from old hurts, an understanding of the brothers’ pain and hopelessness wouldn't it?

However by the last episode of the season this mistake by Sam had been conflated by Dean with anything else Sam had ever done or not done or had had happen to him and was being interpreted as active willful negligence, a sign that Sam didn't love Dean, by both Dean and anyone who wanted to look at it that way. The only bit of Dean's life that hadn't been purified by Purgatory was the conflict he feels over his responsibility for his brother and the expectations he has of Sam's behavior as a result.

So, then we have this situation, and to say 'well this time it should be different, Sam should know that Dean would only do this thing he knows Sam would hate more than anything because he loves Sam. Sam should thank Dean for doing it?’ Really?

Would Dean? Would Dean thank Sam for allowing Michael to possess Dean? Would he be grateful? Would he understand? Did he understand that Sam also sacrificed in letting him go last season? Before you answer that remember all the times over the years Dean has called Sam a freak, and remember how much Sam told Dean he was hurt by that designation.
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-26 14:52
cntd: Does Dean see the parallel? If Dean is possessed he becomes the freak, would he forgive Sam for adding that to Dean’s burden?

I think it is important (just for once) that we and Dean see the following: that Dean also sometimes does the wrong thing for the right reasons AND the result rebounds onto him in some way AND it doesn’t work out ok AND that thing can be (and is) actually thrown in his face, by the person he would least want to let down, as being something he did wrong – all things that happened to Sam last season.

EDIT TO ADD: I will say I wouldn't be sitting there cheering that this is happening to Dean the way it has happened so many times now to Sam, but I would get the feeling that there could eventually be understanding on BOTH sides instead of just continuous blame on one side and (successful) atonement and (failed) attempts to attain forgiveness on the other.

If Sam merely says 'thank you' and moves on, which honestly could happen (I have no real faith that the show intends to follow through on the original premise of the first episode, Dean has had so many ‘look how much Dean loves Sam’ episodes since then that I certainly don’t believe that anything like the damage Dean did to Sam in Southern Comfort or Sacrifice (or Blood Brother or Citizen Fang) will happen to Dean – and thus give HIM some fresh insight), then I just don’t understand the purpose of any of this storyline any more than I understood Sam not being more definitive on what happened to him after Dean ‘died’ in a way that would have given Dean the balm to his soul - that Sam truly felt the loss - that Dean needed or than I understood the need for Dean to be shown so unforgiving that he drove his brother to a state of suicidal recklessness.

Bottom line if there is no point of view that is coherent to BOTH the boys abhorrence of being possessed and not in control of their own lives then the basic point of this show continues to be, what it has been for several seasons now, that whatever Dean does will eventually be proven to be the right thing, no surprise, no learning curve, no thought and Sam will be thankful because … well, because.

“It is not blame that falls on you Dean, it is fate” (Castiel, “On the Head of a Pin”)

Oh ok then, fate, right, it is not fate that ever falls on Sam though (or forgiveness, or trust, or understanding) – it is blame.

Sam believing that Dean had died and was resting in peace while leaving Sam alone in a world where nothing good has, or ever will, happen to him again is also a type of love and sacrifice. Each time the brothers have come back from the dead things have just gotten worse for them. Sam made the harder decision, because it had no benefit for Sam. Mourning doesn’t look as heroic as ‘saving your brother by having him possessed’ but it is just as brave and twice as hard because in the end all the mourner gets is acceptance of loss.

Is the only important thing in the whole SPN universe that Sam isn't dead? And if so, if it is so important to Dean, why shouldn't Sam have a say on how important his life is and how it should be lead?
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-26 14:52
cntd: Does Dean see the parallel? If Dean is possessed he becomes the freak, would he forgive Sam for adding that to Dean’s burden?

I think it is important (just for once) that we and Dean see the following: that Dean also sometimes does the wrong thing for the right reasons AND the result rebounds onto him in some way AND it doesn’t work out ok AND that thing can be (and is) actually thrown in his face, by the person he would least want to let down, as being something he did wrong – all things that happened to Sam last season.

EDIT TO ADD: I will say I wouldn't be sitting there cheering that this is happening to Dean the way it has happened so many times now to Sam, but I would get the feeling that there could eventually be understanding on BOTH sides instead of just continuous blame on one side and (successful) atonement and (failed) attempts to attain forgiveness on the other.

If Sam merely says 'thank you' and moves on, which honestly could happen (I have no real faith that the show intends to follow through on the original premise of the first episode, Dean has had so many ‘look how much Dean loves Sam’ episodes since then that I certainly don’t believe that anything like the damage Dean did to Sam in Southern Comfort or Sacrifice (or Blood Brother or Citizen Fang) will happen to Dean – and thus give HIM some fresh insight), then I just don’t understand the purpose of any of this storyline any more than I understood Sam not being more definitive on what happened to him after Dean ‘died’ in a way that would have given Dean the balm to his soul - that Sam truly felt the loss - that Dean needed or than I understood the need for Dean to be shown so unforgiving that he drove his brother to a state of suicidal recklessness.

Bottom line if there is no point of view that is coherent to BOTH the boys abhorrence of being possessed and not in control of their own lives then the basic point of this show continues to be, what it has been for several seasons now, that whatever Dean does will eventually be proven to be the right thing, no surprise, no learning curve, no thought and Sam will be thankful because … well, because.

“It is not blame that falls on you Dean, it is fate” (Castiel, “On the Head of a Pin”)

Oh ok then, fate, right, it is not fate that ever falls on Sam though (or forgiveness, or trust, or understanding) – it is blame.

Sam believing that Dean had died and was resting in peace while leaving Sam alone in a world where nothing good has, or ever will, happen to him again is also a type of love and sacrifice. Each time the brothers have come back from the dead things have just gotten worse for them. Sam made the harder decision, because it had no benefit for Sam. Mourning doesn’t look as heroic as ‘saving your brother by having him possessed’ but it is just as brave and twice as hard because in the end all the mourner gets is acceptance of loss.

Is the only important thing in the whole SPN universe that Sam isn't dead? And if so, if it is so important to Dean, why shouldn't Sam have a say on how important his life is and how it should be lead?
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-26 15:42
eilf You have a very good point. Last year I can't remember an outcry that Dean should simply forgive Sam and let things go. We had an outcry that Sam didn't look for Dean and how selfish that was. Those who were more sympathetic to Sam said not looking seemed out of character but could be made understandable if the writers would just show Sam's POV (which never happened). But Dean's massive hurt feelings were repeated and repeatedly VALIDATED by the show while we were supposed to have no sense of Sam's emotions and Sam wasn't violating Dean's bodily integrity. Now Dean has let an angel possess Sam, kept it from him, not told Sam that this angel is taking over when it sees fit, and then wiping Sam's memory so Sam has NO IDEA what his body is responsible for and NO IDEA that it has done anything at all. And NOW we are getting calls for Sam to "be mature" and actually THANK DEAN for all this. Dean can still hold a grudge that Sam didn't look for him last year, because he's Dean and the one thing last year did prove was saying everything is forgiven really means I'm saying the words, but really nothing is forgiven if it's done to me.
percysowner
# percysowner 2013-11-26 15:42
eilf You have a very good point. Last year I can't remember an outcry that Dean should simply forgive Sam and let things go. We had an outcry that Sam didn't look for Dean and how selfish that was. Those who were more sympathetic to Sam said not looking seemed out of character but could be made understandable if the writers would just show Sam's POV (which never happened). But Dean's massive hurt feelings were repeated and repeatedly VALIDATED by the show while we were supposed to have no sense of Sam's emotions and Sam wasn't violating Dean's bodily integrity. Now Dean has let an angel possess Sam, kept it from him, not told Sam that this angel is taking over when it sees fit, and then wiping Sam's memory so Sam has NO IDEA what his body is responsible for and NO IDEA that it has done anything at all. And NOW we are getting calls for Sam to "be mature" and actually THANK DEAN for all this. Dean can still hold a grudge that Sam didn't look for him last year, because he's Dean and the one thing last year did prove was saying everything is forgiven really means I'm saying the words, but really nothing is forgiven if it's done to me.
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-11-26 16:15
Please please PLEASE Dear Show, don't have Sam THANK Dean for the sacrifice HE made! No no nooo! I hope they don't go there!
ThisOldBag
# ThisOldBag 2013-11-26 16:15
Please please PLEASE Dear Show, don't have Sam THANK Dean for the sacrifice HE made! No no nooo! I hope they don't go there!
E
# E 2013-11-26 20:25
eilf and percys.. great arguments, I heartily agree with everything you are saying! Bravo!
E
# E 2013-11-26 20:25
eilf and percys.. great arguments, I heartily agree with everything you are saying! Bravo!
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-27 08:28
Quoting leah d.:
......bad.

Very well put leah d.!
Nate
# Nate 2013-11-27 08:28
Quote:
......bad.
Very well put leah d.!
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-27 10:19
Quoting E:
eilf and percys.. great arguments, I heartily agree with everything you are saying! Bravo!

Thanks E and Percy :-) I have been resisting for a long time but I wanted to try to make it clear that for me it isn't about 'punishing Dean' it's about him coming to an understanding about his life and what his responsibilitie s really are (even if his brother has to tell him it instead of him coming to terms with it himself) ie. that he doesn't need to be his brothers keeper.

Having said that, and on the strength of a 20 second clip from the next episode I suspect I might get way more than I wished for so I am not going to say any more about it ... :-?

Oh the drama!
eilf
# eilf 2013-11-27 10:19
Quote:
eilf and percys.. great arguments, I heartily agree with everything you are saying! Bravo!
Thanks E and Percy :-) I have been resisting for a long time but I wanted to try to make it clear that for me it isn't about 'punishing Dean' it's about him coming to an understanding about his life and what his responsibilitie s really are (even if his brother has to tell him it instead of him coming to terms with it himself) ie. that he doesn't need to be his brothers keeper.

Having said that, and on the strength of a 20 second clip from the next episode I suspect I might get way more than I wished for so I am not going to say any more about it ... :-?

Oh the drama!