Hi! How are we all feeling? A little fragile? This hiatus is going to be harsh… Stupid CW changing their return date.

You know, I’m at work while most of you watch the show and this week my twitter was going nutso! I get alerts when someone tweets me and I kept getting “Oh Amy, tonight’s episode is going to break your heart” kind of tweets! So I started to panic. Like, I was having the worst day anyway and then I was having massive “Supernatural” anxiety on top of it! All this concern for me could only mean one thing, Dean screwed up, Dean did something horrific, everyone knows how I feel about Dean, so if I’m going to be that distressed by the episode, well… I was freaked out! I emailed Alice and Ardeospina! I said…am I going to cry??? Alice said she was surprised by something that happened and she was surprised she could still be surprised, she also cried, Ardeospina didn’t cry but thought that I probably would! OMG! I managed to make myself even more anxious…seriously…I had a lot of stuff going on which was making my stomach hurt, but my “Supernatural” feels were making me sweat!

Finally, the day ended and I could get home to my boys because obviously, they needed me! I nearly ran every red light to get there. I threw some food at the dog, got some tissues just in case, cracked a beer and prepared for the worst. My heart was leaping out of my chest for the entire episode. I was seriously queasy throughout! But…I didn’t cry...

I groaned when Dean said the thing about Benny never letting him down. I groaned when Sam spat out his well good on you line. I groaned when Sam let Dean get handcuffed to heater. I groaned really loud when we found out Dean sent the text. I groaned even louder when Sam hung up on Dean. GAH! These two! But you know what…it’s all good…I’m good with it all. In fact, I’m pretty damn happy about all that brother crap getting flushed to the surface…because now maybe we can deal with it and get rid of it once and for bloody all!
 
I may have touched on this somewhere else, but I’ve been thinking a lot about Sam and Dean lately (and by lately I mean seven and a half years) so humour me while I hop into my way-back-machine…

 
“Skin” – 1.06
Dean to Sam – while in the guise of the shapeshifter
 
"He’s sure got issues with you. You got to go to college. He had to stay home.
 
I mean, I had to stay home. With Dad. You don’t think I had dreams of my own? But Dad needed me. Where the hell were you?
 
See, deep down, I’m just jealous. You got friends. You could have a life. Me? I know I’m a freak. And sooner or later, everybody’s gonna leave me.
 
You left. Hell, I did everything Dad asked me to, and he ditched me, too. No explanation, nothin’, just poof. Left me with your sorry ass."
 
“Asylum” – 1.10
Sam to Dean – while possessed by Dr Ellicott and with a gun pointing at Dean.
 
"I mean, why are we even here? ’Cause you're following Dad's orders like a good little solider? Because you always do what he says without question? Are you that desperate for his approval?
 
That's the difference between you and me. I have a mind of my own. I'm not pathetic, like you.
 
You know what, I am sick of doing what you tell me to do."

 
The reason I’m starting this week’s review with a couple of quotes from the first half of season one, is because I think after “Citizen Fang” it’s important to take a step back and look at the history and nature of Sam and Dean’s relationship before we spend six weeks in the depths of despair.

I think us fans have a tendency to look at the Winchester’s bro-ness through rose coloured glasses. I know I do. We love them, maybe a little too much sometimes, just like they love each other, maybe a little too much sometimes. Actually, there’s no maybe about it, I think they love each other to the point of distraction (same goes for us). But I think the resentments we’re seeing raise their ugly heads in such a hurtful way now, are resentments that have been there right from the moment we met them.
 
When we first heard each of the brother’s inner doubts and anger at each other, albeit via supernatural interference, I remember thinking, o-oh, everything’s not so peachy-keen jelly-bean! And now….well now, their relationship has been so impacted by the shite they’ve had to wade through, that those resentments are starting to seep into everything. And you know what? Good! Let me explain myself a bit better because you probably all think I’m about as crazy as mostly-ok-Martin.
 
Sam and Dean have been on one hell of a ride to get them to where we now find them. They haven’t had a chance to draw breath since, well at least since when Dean went to Hell.
 
When we first met our beautiful Winchester boys, they hadn’t seen each other for 2 years. Sam had left John and Dean to go to college. John told Sam, you walk out that door don’t you ever come back. Dean didn’t contact Sam for the whole 2 years. He says he didn’t think Sam would pick up, but we know he was smarting from his brother leaving the family, or rather leaving Dean, which we later discover is the way Dean sees it. It wasn’t until their father went missing and Dean found himself alone, that he went to his brother and asked him to join him in the hunt for John, as much because he wanted to find their father as have his brother beside him. I think it was probably the excuse he’d been waiting  for so he could reconnect with Sam. Dean doesn’t do alone well, neither brother does.
 
Sam was crystal clear, he had no intention of continuing with the hunter’s life beyond the search for dad and had Jess not been murdered, I’m quite sure Sam would be a lawyer right about now.

But circumstances changed Sam’s mind. During season one and then into season two Sam continued to remind Dean that this was not the life he was going to follow. Initially, he just wanted to find dad. Then he wanted revenge for Jess and mum and everything. But still, once the Yellow-Eyed Demon was done with, Sam was leaving the family business once and for all. I’m sure this hung over Dean’s head like a death sentence.
 
But circumstances changed Sam’s mind. He was killed, his brother sold his soul to resurrect him and now Sam’s mission was to get Dean out of that deal. Unfortunately, it wasn’t to be and after that…well, after that it all kind of went in the crapper.
 
While Dean was in real Hell, Sam was in lost-without-his-brother hell and he fell in with Ruby. Between Dean and Sam they started the world on the road to the Apocalypse. Their trust in each other was permanently shaken as each chose different sides of the Ruby camp. Lucifer was risen. They found out they were the opposing vessels for the Apocalypse – forced on to opposite sides once again. They struggled to stay apart and then struggled to stay together. They were forced to face all their memories in Heaven and a wedge was driven further between them. Sam’s memories showed he was happiest when away from the family/family business. Dean got hurt because Dean’s memories were all about being with his family. So, the amulet went in the bin…..
 
They had a shining moment when they came together out of pure love and desperation to stop Lucifer in his tracks and it was that love and dedication to each other that quite literally saved the world (that’s how I see it anyway). Dean wouldn’t leave Sam and that helped Sam fight off the Devil to save Dean. But could they even catch a break then? Nope.
 
Sam dove into the pit. Dean struggled to live without his brother. He tried to follow Sam’s wish for him and what Dean thought was his own dream for a family life, only to find that was never going to be possible. Sam’s unexpected homecoming was not a happy one. Something was wrong in Sam-town and Dean knew it. His brother came out of Hell without his soul.
 
When soulless Sam’s soul was restored, the brothers had the world to save, yet again, this time from a barrage of Jefferson Starship monsters the likes they’d never seen and then, from a friend, who proceeded to send Sam crazy. Whatever. They kept moving forward because that’s what they do. They’re Winchesters. They stopped Eve but they couldn’t stop Cass, the Leviathan came, more end of the world stuff and then, bam, bam, bam. Cass died, Bobby died, Sam went mad, Cass came back, cured Sam and Dean killed Dick Roman, vanishing before his brother’s eyes. Poof. Gone.

Then…everything stopped.
 
They were apart for a year, where they both had a chance to draw breath and assess everything, without the pressures of the world driving itself off the cliff once again.
 
Dean fought in Purgatory and found a new sense of purpose. Sam met someone and found a new sense of life. Dean went back to being the hunter he was when we first met him. Sam went back to trying to make a safe and normal existence for himself, like when we first met him.
 
I think, what we’re seeing here and now are issues that the Winchester brothers had with each other since that wonderful day they came into our lives. The issues that they’ve never properly aired and that have had to take a back seat to the brothers being great big heroes.
 
What I see happening between Sam and Dean is confusion and hurt and anger and resentment amplified by years of confusion and hurt and anger and resentment.

I think that Dean is confused and hurt and angry about why Sam never looked for him, why his brother let him down. Why his brother turned away and went in search of a “normal life” again, and that plays into all of Dean’s insecurities and fears about not being worthy and being left alone, but I also think all this plays into that very first tirade. Sam got another shot at friends and a life. This should make Dean happy, he did too for a fleeting moment. But it’s déjà vu all over again. Dean had dreams he didn’t get to live, but Sam got another shot…at the expense of Dean.
 

I think Sam’s mad as hell. MAD AS HELL. I can’t remember seeing him this angry. He’s almost itching for a fight. I mean, if there was a fight, he could leave again with a clearer conscious right? I think sure, he’s angry his brother kept Benny a secret from him, he’s angry at what he sees as a double standard, but I also think, he’s mad as hell that he’s back doing the one thing he thought he got away from again. He’s back hunting. I think he’s pissed. All these flashbacks he’s having to his life with Amelia. He’s obviously thinking about it constantly. Well at least three times every 42 minutes! It looks to me like it’s eating him up. It looks like he feels like he’s been dragged back to following orders like a good little soldier and his brother is calling the shots once again. He’s given up everything for Dean and the family, once again.
 
I think, those two very simple outbursts, way back in season one, are continue inform the brother’s relationship and are playing into where they’re currently at. Because these are deep resentments, they’re epic siblingesque resentments and they’ve never truly been aired and dealt with. And sure, there's been a torrent of horror and mistrust under the bridge since then, which only adds to everything, but as I see it, where they are now and where they kicked off, are two very similar places. So that’s what I mean by…good. Get it out guys. Please, get it out and talk about it! You've been burying this stuff for years. It's time. Let's have that mature relationship Carver promises they're working towards. Let this be the first step to that.

They don’t communicate well, never have. Through everything they’ve learnt, that’s something that’s eluded them. I’d say their upbringing wasn’t conducive to open and honest discussion! For the brothers, it more often than not comes out in spits of pain. Which is why I never really worry about them, because the kind of pain being felt at the things being said is the kind of pain felt because of love. If they weren’t the most important people in each other’s lives, they wouldn’t be so deeply injured by each other’s lack of trust and understanding. They wouldn’t lash out so hurtfully.
 
Maybe this is how my Winchester rose-coloured glasses work…I don't know. I know most people don’t roll with my assessment that, regardless of what the brothers say or how they act, that love is always there and is their stone number one. I’ve always seen their relationship as a great big functioning dysfunctional piece of love. Sure there’ve been wonderful moments of fun and closeness where that affection is clearly on display and I think it’s those we tend to hang on to. But they’re gigantic, burley blokes and they butt heads, a lot. They can't be sharing and caring at every turn. They live in each other’s back pockets. They are totally different individuals. They piss each other off royally. They hurt each other completely. Their world is scary and extreme and their reaction to it and to each other can be scary and extreme. So…yeah, it’s bad, but it’s also good, because even if it’s coming out as yelling and nastiness, at least it’s coming out. That seems like a giant step forward! Everyone knows where they stand pretty much and we all know, when everything hits rock bottom…the only way is up (baby, for you and me….you’re all singing that in your heads now aren’t you).

And yet, in amongst all the angsty, heart stabby, keep us awake at night bro stuff, we saw some really strong moments between Sam and Dean that shows, whatever they have is still there and maybe we can take some solace in that.
 
Dean didn’t rail at Sam for putting someone on Benny. Even though you could tell Sam was expecting Dean to bite, Dean didn’t, instead agreeing with his brother that they needed to check it out. Sam gave Dean the time he asked for to go to see Benny before everything went too far. This was my favourite moment of the episode. The boys were laser focused on each other. Martin was bouncing back and forth yelling at them, but they just stared at each other calmly like no one else was in the room, as Dean asked “Sammy” for that time. I loved that moment. There was understanding and give and take going on. 
 
But then the brothers met an impasse. Dean asked Sam to trust him and in doing so, to trust Benny, but if there’s no trust between each other, how can that trust be extended? Sam questioned Dean’s judgement. Dean hit one out in anger; Sam got hurt and volleyed one back. They went their separate ways and took their own actions. For right or for wrong, they followed the path they thought was justified.
 
I’m sure Sam probably would have killed Benny given half a chance, though Benny is pretty charming, maybe he could have talked Sam around! I think Dean did the text thing to protect both his brother and his friend. He doesn’t want them to get into a fight. He doesn’t want one to kill the other. He needed Sam out of the picture. He’d planned for this situation a while back. That’s smart man, and it also shows how well he knows Sam. Yeah, it was one hell of a dick move…but I was initially blown away by that level of forward thinking and then saddened that Dean thought maybe it would come to that and then saddened more that it had come to that.

I don’t think Dean realises what a fragile place Sam is in. I don’t think he’s seeing it. I don’t think Sam's showing him for a start, or telling him, no one’s telling anyone anything, but I also think, opening his eyes to what Sam’s feeling is something Dean doesn’t want to face, because then he’d see that maybe Sam doesn’t want to be there, next to Dean, driving down crazy street. Though really...it's getting kind of obvious.
 
But everything in this episode could have gone a different way if the brothers had done what they do best and faced the problem together. Because I think Sam may actually feel differently about Benny if he truly met the vampire and learnt why Dean puts so much faith in him. They kind of want the same thing Benny and Sam and Benny and Dean I guess, happiness, family, they're all not that different...except for that pesky monster thing. 

The one fly in the ointment of this whole shebang was Martin. Had he not been in the picture, things would have gone a lot different. Though had he not been in the picture we’d have never had this particular chapter in the Winchesters scrappy history! Martin had no place being out hunting again, he probably had no place being out…I just assume the hospital he was in got short on beds or something and turfed him. Sam probably should have been smarter than he was in putting Martin on Benny’s tail. But I don’t blame Sam, because I think out of everyone in this tragedy, which is hitting Shakespearian heights, Sam’s the one coping the least.

Did you see that panic overtake Sam again? When he raced towards Amelia, we saw that blind panic that we’ve seen a couple of times this season. Sam’s not doing good. I’m almost expecting one of his eyes to start twitching. He actually reminds me a bit of the Sam at the end of “Sam, Interrupted” when he said he’s angry all the time. Sam’s hurting. I’m kind of glad he’s getting a time out! 

I couldn’t be happier that Benny came through this with his head still attached to his shoulders. Benny is awesome. I love that character. Ty Olsson is doing a fantastic job with him. Benny fits well into the complex and conflicted character drama that is “Supernatural”. Plus he is cute and cuddly! Did he kill mostly-ok-Martin? Yeah, I’d say and I so don’t care! I’m pretty much taking everything that happened in this episode on face value. I think Martin’s neck looked ripped, not cut. Martin got close, Benny lunged, that’s how I see it playing out.

Oh…you know, I do have one theory…hands up who thinks Benny is going to make it to season 9. Bueller? Bueller? Nah me neither. I think we might have a “Heart” situation on our hands, with out the steamy sex of course….WITH OUT the steamy sex people! Benny gave up humans a while back, but he’s finding it hard going, plus he can’t have any semblance of the life he wants. He’s alone, lonely and teetering on the edge of being a monster…I mean a monster that kills. What if he decides, it’s not worth it, getting out of Purgatory is not what it’s all cracked up to be. What if like Lenore, he simply wants done with it, because either he can no longer control the blood lust, or because his life is plain miserable. He only has one person now who keeps his ducks in a row. Dean. I think Benny might ask Dean to send him back to Purgatory. I think he might ask his friend to kill him. If this happens I hope Sam is by his brother’s side, because, Dean’s going to need that support. Meep. Just a theory…run with it if you like! But be warned…I’m usually wrong. I suck at theories!

 â€œCitizen Fang” was painful to watch, that’s for sure, because we all love these brothers and we want them to be happy and most of us want them to find that happiness together, but I’m really glad it’s all happening…finally... and I’m totally digging it. I thought it was another cracker of an episode that once again played into the whole perception thing going on this season. Everyone thought what they were doing was right. From their perspective it was. Even crazy mostly-ok-Martin.

The music, the cinematography, the direction, the performances the script from Dan Loflin were all spot on. I loved that scene where Dean confronts Benny. I love that Dean’s standing there with a knife behind his back. The camera drifts back and forth, the cicadas are chirping and the frogs are croaking and that southern style music is playing and I swear, it felt so steamy I nearly turned up the air conditioning and not just because there were two hot (one ridiculously hot) men facing off with knives! See what this show has done to me! Pretty men + violence = hot! I’m a tragedy.

While we’re on hot… “or…you could just drop a dime yourself” D-amn! Dean Winchester, you flirt like a BOSS! Woof! Also, Jensen, your Texan was showing…drawl much? Smokin’.

Oh and Amelia’s real. Which, I was pretty much expecting, but still. It made me think…if Sam left because he wanted to give Amelia and Don a shot, that when we saw him leaving it was after one last night together, then this whole time, Sammy would’ve been looking at his phone, hoping that Amelia would ring to say that she didn’t want her ex, that she’d chosen Sam and that it was all over with Don… But his phone has never rung, so he’s known and would’ve been dealing with the fact that his girl didn’t pick him. Quick, group hug everyone, because that smarts! How good was Jared’s reaction when Sam saw Amelia in the bar. That was awesome. I have no idea what’s going to happen… I figure, this will be the end of Sam and Amelia….but like I said, I suck at theories.

So here we are. Dean pulled a swiftie on Sam, Sam’s mad as all get out…one’s in Louisiana, one’s in Texas and we’re left high and dry for six weeks! SON OF A BITCH! But it’ll be ok, because my glass half-fullness is saying to me, that this is the beginning of a new road for Sam and Dean where they actually get the opportunity to deal with their crap and move forward into the back end of the season, wanting to be together and being the awesome duo we know they can be. That’s the thought that’s going to get me through this hellatus anyway! Maybe with some puppies and rainbows! Maybe I'm in deanial...get it...DEANial... Yep. But seriously, I'm thinking in a few episodes, hopefully we’ll see some kind of harmony and balance work its way back into their lives…well as much as can be expected…because this is “Supernatural” and none of us expects a happy ending here.
 
I just wanted to say thanks so much for reading my stuff and for all your support. I really appreciate all your comments and feedback. I know we don’t always see eye to eye, but I dig that, because it makes it interesting and I love to read everyone else’s ideas. I read every comment, even if I don’t always respond. I really love this show and I really love these brothers and I really love this fandom – even when I want to salt and burn it - and I love being part of all the crazy. “Supernatural” is way more than a TV show for me and I have a lot of you to thank for that.
 
We’ve got some fun things planned here at WFB for the hellatus, so keep your eyes peeled for those and I’ll be around with something for sure!

Oh and one last thing…rugburn…who else was obsessed with the mark on Jensen’s face that was the supposed result of rugburn caused by mucking around (wrestling/fight training) with Misha and Jared in his hotel room while at Toronto Con. Boys. Bless.
 
See you soon…stay strong! 
-sweetondean

 

Comments  

Grace232
# Grace232 2012-12-08 23:53
Thank you for this wonderful article! I love this show, but do not like it when the brothers are apart. I don't get all nuts about it and rant and rave that I will stop watching (that will never happen!) but I have trouble appreciating those episodes as much as others. However, this article made me feel a lot better. Thank you again. I am going to re- watch the episode now with a new perspective.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 00:37
I don't like it when they're apart either Grace, but I really feel like there's a reason this time and it makes me hopeful that we can finally deal with some of the crap and get them to a better place :-)
st50
# st50 2012-12-09 00:02
Love your review, as usual, sweetondean. Fantastic take on where they guys are. Very insightful. Thanks for the season 1 quotes... great tie in, and very revealing. I do believe this is Carvers grand plan... to go back and have them hash out all the hurt. :-)

All 3 guys, JA, JP and TO were awesome. I'd love to see the 3 of them together more.. JA and TO have great chemistry, as do JA and JP (of course), so I think the 3 of them together would be incredible. :o

And absolutely loved this episode. Best one yet. Oh boys, boys... we got some talkin' and some fightin' and some 'splainin' to do! Bring it on! What do you mean we have to wait for January????

Btw, with the date change so we don't conflict with Peoples Choice Award night? WE BLOODY WELL BETTER WIN SOMETHING! :roll:

(only thing missing in this episode? Tshirt or shirtless boys. Come on, writers, is that too much to ask for?)
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 00:35
Quote:
Btw, with the date change so we don't conflict with Peoples Choice Award night? WE BLOODY WELL BETTER WIN SOMETHING! :roll:
Yes we better! And the boys better be there looking all handsome! (Like they'd look any other way).

I really hope we get to see JP and TO in some scenes together too. That would be highly dramatic and awesome I'm sure!

Thanks for always reading my stuff! :-)
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 00:37
Sweetondean this is wonderful! I am on the same page as you across the board - particularly with the 'tendency to look at the Winchester’s bro-ness through rose coloured glasses' which is of course the best bit.
But also the understanding that love for someone has nothing to do with whether you like them at the moment or not. It doesn't matter what happens, the brothers are brothers - everyone else in their lives is in addition to that.
I have been watching old episodes and keep coming across things that help explain where the guys are now - that is one of the best things about the storytelling of the show - Skin, of course, is the best example.
Dream a Little Dream of Me is another example of why Dean is so hurt in this situation - he really spent his childhood believing that the sole purpose for his existence was to look after Sammy. Poor boy, and poor Sam - it is a wonder he (Sam) didn't move to Australia (I imagine that removal would have been ok with you? :D), never mind Stanford, to get away from the guilt and the pressure of being the prized possession in all this.
Well this episode worked for me because I am sure now that they are not going to let all this just drift on, but actually deal with it! I am back to enjoying the season finally, it was just so depressing before.
I don't think that Benny is for the chop :D I think he is around for a while ... I hope he and Castiel continue to dislike each other!
I still don't know what to make of Amelia...but there is definitely at least a missing day in the end of their relationship - which is odd.
sb101
# sb101 2012-12-09 00:45
Great review as always :) Thanks Amy
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 01:25
I was happy to see your article pop up. This has been a couple of crazy days in the threads. I have been making a lot of comments and am so very glad to see you mirror some of my views.

I had expressed a few weeks ago that being at odds and having issues was nothing new for the brothers. Some had issues with that. I have always felt these two loved each other so much that they pushed it down so they could remain together. They are so incrediby different that it is a miracle that they are still together. Love again. Of course this season even though they have worked well together, the bubbling just-under-the- surface tensions spilled over too many times. It went south in a bad way.

I also feel that Dean's ruse wasn't meant to be as cruel as it ended up. It was a totally jerkish thing to do but I've said I thought it was to protect BOTH of the people he cares about. He didn't want one to kill the other, how could he have lived with either outcome? Having said that, I fully believe that Dean was prepared to take Benny out should it turn out that Benny was guilty. He has warned Benny and he had a big knife or machete at the ready!

I think they have neared rock bottom of their relationshp and it is time to rebuild, even if slowly and painfully. Not go their separate ways as some have suggested. They are both damaged and hurt and if only they could recognize that and try forgiving, they could get to that core of love and brotherly bond. If Sam really wants out then let them part as friends not adversaries. I put out the similar idea that Dean might be asked by Benny to take him out if his urges overwhelm him, my comparison was Bobby asking the boys to burn his flask to prevent him doing any more harm.

It is a pleasure to read your articles and I too love this fandom with it passionate and diverse members. We may differ and squabble at times but there is no one on this site that I wouldn't be honored to meet. We all have this show in common and to me that is a great thing. I might have to give up my internet, but I will go to the library to check in on this crazy bunch :-)
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 01:45
I don't think either intentionally means to hurt, it's just got to that point. But they won't be going their separate ways and I'm glad of that, because they'd be no show! This show is about Sam and Dean and whatever form that takes at any given time. All the other characters, no matter how much we love them, are just side players to Sam and Dean's journey, where ever that ends up taking them. At least that's how I see it.

I agree with you, I'm sure Dean would have taken Benny out if put in that situation. He even warned him again. Thanks for trusting in me brother/Don't give me a reason not to. Every conversation ends in a veiled threat!

Thanks for the lovely comment! :-)
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 12:34
Yep, in a comment I said that they would have to cancel the show if Sam said F-you to Dean and go his own way as a few people have advocated. What could they be thinking? Have they given up on the show and brothers completely?
Kim
# Kim 2012-12-09 01:25
Bravo! Well summed-up. The only things that I would add or comment on are these:

I still think there is a little more to Sam's gap year that we don't know, and I hope we get some insight into. Mostly because there are a few missing months from the time Dean vanished until the the time Sam met Amelia, to Sam & Amelia moving in together - which must have been near the end of the year since that night was the night we heard that Don was still alive - or that Sam may have been on his own again for a time before making it back to the cabin. Sam and Amelia may have taken things slowly before moving in but that still doesn't account for the whole year.

What puzzles me about Martin's death is that Benny seemed genuinely willing to die for his great grand-daughter. It didn't make sense for him to suddenly rip out Martin's throat. Though Martin did deserve it. He should have well enough alone. He was warned. The young vamp that Benny and Dean took out was looking to start a new nest. What if he'd already done some recruiting? I'm wondering if maybe Lizzie didn't kill Martin to save Benny. She was all covered in blood. But if that were true, why would Benny just leave her, unless he made her promise to tell Dean that he'd killed Martin to take the heat off her. She was family, after all.

Quite frankly, and I'll probably get all kinds of heat from Cas fans, I'd rather see more of Benny than Cas. For me, Cas' story has grown stale and pointless. Benny has an exciting story - his history with Dean in Purgatory, Dean's protection of him and the conflict that brings. I'm not saying I want to see him every week, but I could live with him being a recurring character for another year or so.

Seeing Sam in so much emotional pain breaks my heart. Poor guy can't get a break. I agree that what we are seeing is a redux of the first season - times ten! Batten down the hatches, I think we are heading towards a major eruption. Whatever happens is going to figuratively kill us, as fans, but there will have to be something pretty big happen to resolve this and bring the brothers back on the same page together.
Karen Graham
# Karen Graham 2012-12-09 01:45
Great review & I loved your opening :lol: I live in Australia too and it's soooo hard getting through work on a Thursday when you know there is a fresh Supernatural episode waiting to be downloaded the minute you get home! It's also very hard to ignore Twitter and Facebook, but I do try to switch off because I don't want the spoilers.

I recently watched season one again and those two episodes are fresh in my mind. Your recap is also a great reminder of how how far the brothers have come, while still retaining those same basic desires from when we first met them. I think Jeremy Carver knows the boys very well and I'm enjoying the way he is slowly revealing what happened in their year apart.

I also think there is more to be revealed about Sam; perhaps in the conversation between him and Amelia that we are sure to see when the show returns. I definitely agree with you that he is the one struggling to cope. I felt so bad for him at the end of this episode as his relationships with both Dean and Amelia are in tatters and he is alone again.

This was a great episode - brilliant acting from J2 and all the guests, great script, and great directing with some of the best camera-angles I've ever seen on the show. Like you, I'm really glad we have seen the conflict reach boiling point because this hopefully means that Dean & Sam might finally start talking. But damn... it's really going to be a long hellatus :cry:
Kim
# Kim 2012-12-09 03:43
Tell me about it! I have to go into self-imposed 'Net exile every Thursday afternoon until I've had a chance to get home and see the episode. I am a spoilerphobe and don't want to hear/see anything before I watch.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-09 01:54
That's a fabulous analysis of the brothers' relationship. I just found myself nodding along with it.
Now I'm trying to remember - what episode is it where Sammy says the line about "we're just starting to be brothers again."
That bond is always strong but not always pretty. I think you're absolutely correct -- if they didn't care so much - - they wouldn't -- um--care so much.

I'm hopeful that we will have just the one more episode with Amelia before she and Don ride off into the sunset. At this point, I don't even want a twist anymore, I just it want it done so poor Sam can move on.

I really, really hope you are right and they actually get to work on the issues at least a little. Although, they never do seem to catch a break . . . . . .

Thanks for the awesome analysis. :)
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 01:57
Quote:

Now I'm trying to remember - what episode is it where Sammy says the line about "we're just starting to be brothers again."
Hi Melanie
It was 2.01 "In My Time Of Dying" when Dean was in a coma :-)

Thanks for your lovely comment!
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-09 10:15
That's right! How could I forget IMTOD????

I've been thinking about S1 -- one of my favorite episodes is Shadow -- the conversation D&S have where Dean says (to the effect) that once they find Dad, things can be the way they were, they can be family again. And Sam says (to the effect) No, they can't because I don't want them to be.
I remember that scene - the feel of it, as opposed to the detail -- because it was that moment that I really, truly became invested in these damn boys and their story. I felt SO bad for Dean and Sam just completely INFURIATED me at that moment. I was hooked.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-09 10:41
Melanie, same here! When I saw how differently they interpreted what they wanted from their futures, and how sad Dean was in response to Sam's statement of intention, I just felt so bad for Dean and like I wanted to thump Sam for being selfish lol.

I'd been hooked the Pilot onwards but 'Shadow' in S1 was the very first ep in which I started to worry about the eventual final outcome of the brothers' relationship and whether or not they'd ever sort out the issues they had with each other that they'd been carrying around since early childhood (and that we'd seen aired in 'Skin' and 'Aslyum'). I've been worrying ever since...... :cry: 8)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 11:55
Well, obviously mileage varies, tt was sad that Dean wanted things to go back to the way they were and that Sam had no intention of doing that. But it was also unreasonable for Dean to expect Sam to give up all of SAM'S dreams and desires. Sam wasn't HAPPY hunting. He wanted to feel safe, not be running into danger for the rest of his life. He still believed he could find the thing that had haunted his life and then fall in love again, find a wife, have a child, have a job that doesn't have him wading in blood.

In that scene Sam was crystal clear, that he didn't want to lose Dean as a brother. He wanted them to stay in contact, to call each other, to see each other. But that wasn't enough for Dean. For Dean to be happy, Sam to be unhappy and give up who he was. Sam not hunting with Dean made Dean unhappy, but Sam didn't say the only way he would see Dean was if Dean gave up hunting. Sam wanted to live the life he wanted and for Dean to live the life Dean wanted. Dean wanted to live the life he wanted and for Sam to live the life DEAN wanted. That is pretty inflexible.

Sam is a separate person from Dean and he has the right to live a life that makes him happy. No one should have to live someone else's dreams. Dean was being very inflexible there. He could only see one way to be happy and that way made Sam miserable. Insisting that Sam has to give up so much to make Dean happy is entirely unfair to Sam. Yes, I'm sorry that in order to be happy Dean needs Sam driving in the same car, living in the same motel room and basically spending almost his entire life by Dean's side. But Sam shouldn't be expected to do that and I can't feel any anger or annoyance at him for deciding not to do that. Dean is not the only important one in the relationship. Both boys need to get what they need, not just one.
E
# E 2012-12-09 12:51
I couldn't agree with you more percysowner. I have never understood how people could think Sam was being selfish just because he refused to conform to Dean's overly stringent ideas of loyalty. What Sam wanted from life is completely normal, and he has NEVER indicated that not hunting meant not being Dean's brother any more, never seeing him, not being interested in his life or connecting with him, that's Dean's interpretation.

Sam is not responsible for Dean's abandonment issues...Sam is not responsible for Dean's low self esteem problems. Instead of trying to force Sam to prop Dean up in his life, why doesn't Dean try and resolve these problems? Why can't Dean learn to be happy with himself? Dean will always, always, ALWAYS be dissatisfied with Sam because he is making Sam responsible for his happiness and Sam is always, always, ALWAYS going to fail in this because he cannot live Dean's life for him.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 14:16
percysowner- I agree with your comment in it's entirety. One thing I would like to add though, is that there was some element of Dean wanting his brother by his side to have his back and pursue what he viewed as their purpose in life. Sam, aside from being his brother, is an awesome hunter. Sam, of course, did not see it that way at the time. If they were in some other line of "business" Dean would not NEED his brother beside him. Was it selfish? Yes, but it made sense to him.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 15:46
You are right about the fact that being a hunter is safer with a partner. At the time of the conversation in Shadow, John is still alive and Dean and John have been hunting together for years. Dean may need a partner, but that partner doesn't have to be Sam, at the time John was still and option.

There is nothing wrong with Dean being selfish and wanting Sam to be with him. People do that, it's natural. I was just disputing the idea that Sam is the one being selfish here and that SAM should be thumped for actually wanting the life he wants. You can argue that Sam wanting a life that make him happy is selfish, but it is also part of growing up and Sam isn't asking Dean to change to make Sam happy, just to let Sam live his own life.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 16:07
I have to sheepishly admit that I hadn't read Melanie's comment and I thought you were being general. I didn't realize you were referring to a scene in "Shadow". I found that scene sad also. Not because I thought Sam selfish but because Dean seemed to tear up at the thought that they couldn't be a family again. I don't think Melanie was thumping Sam.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 12:29
I gotta agree w/Percy. How is Sam selfish for wanting something different from Dean? He's not.

At that time, Sam didn't want to spend his life hunting. As Percy said, he still had foolish hopes that they could kill the demon, and he could still lead a relatively normal and safe life. I just don't think there's anything wrong w/that. Yes, it made Dean sad but Sam can't live his life for Dean, or he shouldn't live his life for Dean.

I love that Sam was honest w/Dean about his feelings and his plans. He didn't want to "lead Dean on" and make it seem like he would be staying when he would really be leaving. I just don't see a problem w/that. I hate, absolutely HATE, that Kripke had Sam apologize for wanting to go to college and for wanting to lead a different life than Dean. There is absolutely nothing wrong w/that, but on this show, it is seen as bad.

I thought Sam had committed to hunting some time ago, but now Carver has changed that. He hasn't mentioned leaving hunting in a while but then there hasn't been much focus on the tablet story. I'm not sure what to make of Sam at this point. He seems pretty miserable right now. It's sad. But I'm sure he'll come around and apologize again for wanting a different life since that is apparently wrong and selfish. That implication really bothers me, but it is what it is.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-09 12:44
I agree with Eric having Sam apologize I do think the Sam+ college + normal has been turned into something it never was .
It was never a selfish act just someone wanting something different , no two individuals are ever the same and that applies to the brothers .
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 13:11
Exactly, Sharon! But many viewers, and Dean and John, saw Sam's desire to go to college as selifsh and wrong. It hurt when Sam eventually apologized for doing what most 18-years old do. He shouldn't have had to apologize for that or not wanting to hunt.
Amy
# Amy 2012-12-09 22:08
I remember watching Shadow live and when Sam said those words about not wanting life exactly the same as before, i nodded my head. How could Sam wan't 'before?" before was Sam and John argueing, butting heads and barely speaking. Before was Sam being dragged behind his father and brother from place to place and being told ' on a need to know basis: ie. we know you dont. Before was being kept in the dark about his own life. About not feeling like he belonged in his own family. Before was feeling like he didn't belong or fit in anywhere. Before was his father telling to never come back.

I so absolutely understood Sam's desire for things not to fall back into 'before."
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-13 12:36
Very well put, Amy. I remember thinking Dean was very passive agressive in that ep.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-09 14:47
I would like to clarify my read of that scene. I did not say that I thought Sam was being selfish or that he was 'wrong' in what he wanted.
What I responded to in the scene was that Jensen played Dean very hurt and Jared played Sam very unmoved by that hurt. Classic hurt/comfort - thank you Kim Manners.

I disagree that Sam made it clear they could still see each other and so on -- I would say the opposite -- I thought he meant that he was going back to Stanford and there was no promise being made that Dean would be a welcome part of that life. At the time, I thought he was being mean to Dean by not softening the rejection with promises of 'we'll get together, we'll do some hunts on the weekend' etc.. and it made me very curious about the relationship and what had happened between them.

Once again, let me stress that I don't think either brother is 'wrong' or 'right' on this issue. They each want what they want. And what each wants hurts the other. Dean wants Sam with him -- that means Sam doesn't have his 'normal life'. Sam wants his normal life -- that means Dean doesn't have his brother hunting with him.

This is purposefully set up to be a source of conflict for the characters. As long as the premise of the show is the brothers hunting together, Sam is the one who won't get what he wants. That doesn't make him wrong or selfish for wanting it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 15:40
I went to the transcript of that scene

Quote:
SAM: I mean, what are you gonna do when it’s all over?

DEAN: It’s never gonna be over. There’s gonna be others. There’s always gonna be somethin’ to hunt.

SAM: But there’s got to be somethin’ that you want for yourself—

DEAN: Yeah, I don’t want you to leave the second this thing’s over, Sam. (He walks over to the dresser.)

SAM: Dude, what’s your problem? (DEAN is silent for a while, then turns back to SAM.)

DEAN: Why do you think I drag you everywhere? Huh? I mean, why do you think I came and got you at Stanford in the first place?

SAM: ‘Cause Dad was in trouble. ‘Cause you wanted to find the thing that killed Mom.

DEAN: Yes, that, but it’s more than that, man. (He returns to the dresser and is silent again, then once more turns to Sam.) You and me and Dad—I mean, I want us….I want us to be together again. I want us to be a family again.

SAM: Dean, we are a family. I’d do anything for you. But things will never be the way they were before. (DEAN looks heartbroken.)

DEAN: (sadly) Could be.

SAM: I don’t want them to be. I'm not gonna live this life forever. Dean, when this is all over, you’re gonna have to let me go my own way. (He and DEAN share a look.)
To me the statement Dean, we are a family. I’d do anything for you is letting Dean know that Sam loves him and intends to be family. Maybe you think the tone was too cold, but Sam knows Dean. Dean is desperately trying to convince Sam to stay hunting. If Sam isn't brutally honest that he doesn't want that life, Dean will find false hope and keep on thinking Sam will be talked into hunting. Dean is operating from the idea that the only way to be family is to hunt together. Sam is saying there are other ways to be family and that Sam will do anything (other than giving up the life he wants forever) for Dean. Considering they are two guys who don't talk to each other much, Sam is being very reassuring that he loves Dean and that Dean is his brother, even if Sam goes back to his life.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 16:39
Exactly, Percy! Sam was not saying he would never speak to Dean again; he was simply letting Dean know that he wasn't going to hunt w/Dean forever. He didn't want Dean thinking that he wasn't going to finish college and go to law school. I don't think Sam was harsh or cold at all. He was being honest.

If he had lied to Dean and snuck away, people would be mad at him. It's not his fault his truth hurt Dean. Sam's truth would have always hurt Dean no matter how Sam delivered the news.

I also fully reject the idea that Sam is being selfish because he wants to live his own life. That is NOT selfish. Everyone, or rather most people, have dreams and aspirations. How was it selfish of Sam to want to pursue his when Dean could hunt w/John? Sam had every right to live his own life just as Dean did. If anyone was being selfish, it was Dean in wanting Sam to give up his dreams to stay w/Dean b/c Dean is happier when Sam's w/him.

I love Dean, but it's not Sam's job to keep Dean happy.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-09 17:23
Thank you for the transcript. As I said -- I was going from the feel I had from the scene, not the detail -- I haven't watched it recently. You're right, Sam went further than I remember to reassure Dean.
From how Jensen had Dean react -- Dean didn't take much solace from it --From Dean's POV, the reassurance may have been a bit hollow since the 'I'd do anything for you' doesn't include Sam doing what Dean most wants him to do.
Again, Sam's not wrong. And neither is Dean.
E
# E 2012-12-10 08:48
To me that scene in shadow played out like a another round of a much repeated discussion. It seemed to me that Sam was repeating something he had said many times to Dean, but maybe Dean was only really hearing it for the first time at that moment. Dean's reaction did seem intense..and his pain is hard to take, but this is Dean's issue, not Sam's.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 15:47
Melanie, just wanted to say when I responded to percysowners above comment I was taking it as a stand- alone. I hadn't read yours yet, my bad. I don't think you were saying Sam was selfish either, I also remember how much sadness I felt for Dean at that moment too.
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-09 18:10
Thanks, Leah. No worries. :)
It was the first time of many that Dean Winchester tugged on my heartstrings.
st50
# st50 2012-12-09 11:38
Quote:
-- if they didn't care so much - - they wouldn't -- um--care so much.
:lol: This made me laugh, Melanie, but it's so accurate. :lol:
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-09 14:50
:D
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 12:22
Melanie, love what you say about "if they didn't care so much........" You have said in 12 words what some of have been trying to say for seasons. It makes me crazy when people say Dean doesn't care about Sam anymore or that Sam is whiney and ungrateful. Nothing could be further from the truth!
Melanie
# Melanie 2012-12-09 14:55
Thanks -- that makes me crazy too. I think the brotherly bond pervades everything Sam & Dean do -- its always there. It just isn't always a harmonious bond!
Annaliese Webb
# Annaliese Webb 2012-12-09 02:58
Another wonderful recap Amy - I knew I could count on you! There are so many thoughts and feelings that this episode brings up for me but I'm finding it hard to sort through them but these are the basics:

- LOVED this episode despite (or perhaps because!) it pulling on my heart strings like no other episode this season. In fact, it took me quite a number of hours to actually be able to think about anything other than 'Citizen Fang' and that hasn't happened in a long time.

- The boys have fought and gone their separate ways before but have always come back to one another so I am less concerned and more excited for what is going to follow.

- I actually agree with Kim and am far more interested in the story Benny has to tell than anything Cas may be able to bring to the table right now. I don't want him to leave but I wouldn't be upset if he went off on some angel business for a while.

- This was the first episode this season that I actually got annoyed by Sam's flashbacks. Mostly because I wanted to get back to the exciting events happening in 'real time' and impatience was getting the better of me. Now that Sam and Amelia have run into each other I am really hoping this means there is no longer any need for 'Life with Amelia' flashbacks.

- CANNOT wait until the next episode. Thank goodness it's crazy at work around Christmas time otherwise I may go insane waiting!

Oh! and before I forget - how AMAZING is J2's acting this season? Just when you think they can't get any better or any more attractive...
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 07:35
I believe the flashbacks for both brothers are done for now, we may get more further down the line. My guess is we will get some major reveal(s) at some point. There are somethings that they can still adress that may play a role in the season-what did Dean do in Purgatory that was aparently so bad he cant reveal to Sam? what happened during Sam's missing months before he hit the dog? who are the 'they' that helped benny and Dean out? and off course the Cas and angel thing?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-09 04:07
I love your reviews Sweetondean.
And I pretty much agree with everything.. except for that one little tidbit of Sam being angry.

I don´t really feel he´s angry.
I think, he´s just afraid.
He didn´t think he would ever see Dean again... especially not, when he has lost everything all over again.
And then BOOM, there he is.

The best thing, about not having anyone, is that you can´t lose someone.
It´s a really comfortable place to be.
But Dean back?

Honestly, with all the times, Sam had to go through that grief, the first logical thought would be: "God, not again, I can´t do this anymore"

In the first episodes of season 8, Sam is putting alot of emphasis on everyone they lost... and for him, that includes Dean.. like a hundred times or so.

Sam is totally scared and holds it together with nothing but..oh wait... he doesn´t, does he?

As for that text message?
Dick move, yes. Brilliant, but...
Dean didn´t know.

For him, it was just an Ex Girlfriend.
He doesn´t know all the things behind that story.
He doesn´t know, that it basically meant Sam had to watch his girl with another man.


It still was dick move... but god... don´t sue me, but I loved it. It was something so brotherly. The meanness, the planning, the knowledge of the other, that had to go into it....
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 04:17
Oh Fluffy, I totally meant to add the bit about Sam being scared. I knew I forgot something! I talked about the panic but not the fear! Thanks for mentioning it! :-)

I know I've discussed it before, that he's scared out of his wits. But I do think he's also hugely angry about everything and just getting angrier but it's all mixed up with all his emotions and that's why he's at the point he's at.

And yes, Dean didn't know, he had no idea what was going on with Amelia or why Sam was no longer in the picture. It was not a nice thing to do to his brother, but like you, I thought it was a brilliant strategic move and brilliantly played. Still a dick move, but one that showed how smart Dean really is and how well he knows Sam and how Sam would react.
st50
# st50 2012-12-09 11:50
Quote:
Oh Fluffy, I totally meant to add the bit about Sam being scared. I knew I forgot something! I talked about the panic but not the fear! Thanks for mentioning it! :-)

I know I've discussed it before, that he's scared out of his wits. But I do think he's also hugely angry about everything and just getting angrier but it's all mixed up with all his emotions and that's why he's at the point he's at.
YES! His panic attacks are so very much fear! And it seems like most of the times he's angry, it's related to fear of losing someone again!
And it seems he's alone again! (Unless Amelia was with him in that hotel room - and I'm guessing not, or at least not in a good way).

It may have taken Dean some time to get his 'sea legs' back, but he seems to be in such a better place than Sam right now. He's had so many bouts of being 'tired of it all' (since at least season 3!), it's so nice to see him properly back in the game. (And hot! Did I mention hot? :oops: )

I'm really looking forward to seeing them fight/talk it out (I'm back to that padded room, semi-naked fight scene we talked about! Sorry!) And ultimately being on the same page, driving next to each other down crazy street. :-)
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-12-11 12:53
Quoting st50:
Quote:
I'm really looking forward to seeing them fight/talk it out (I'm back to that padded room, semi-naked fight scene we talked about! Sorry!) And ultimately being on the same page, driving next to each other down crazy street.
Ha, so you're the one who had that brilliant idea. I'm with you 100%, I would love to see that scene. :lol: Just thinking about it is making me happy.
st50
# st50 2012-12-11 13:02
Nope. Unfortunately, I can't take that credit, as much as I'd love to....
Can't remember who came up with it, but I'm running with it!
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 07:42
can you imagine the backlash against Sam had he used Lisa and Ben in the same way Dean used Amelia? I doubt it would have been interpretted as a brilliantly strategic or brilliantly palyed somehow. It would simply have been regarded as cruel and dickish.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 08:04
Sam gets extra browny points for badass fighting.
Dean gets his for outwitting someone (especially his brother)

Even IF Sam is hitting Dean, or when Dean is being a dick to his brother ^^
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-11 09:23
Quote:
Sam gets extra browny points for badass fighting.
Dean gets his for outwitting someone (especially his brother)

Even IF Sam is hitting Dean, or when Dean is being a dick to his brother ^^
When has Sam hit Dean? Only once when he was on demon blood as far as I can remember. Dean has hit Sam repeatedly without that excuse.
Dean was being a dick to his brother. Why is it okay to do that? I agree with Hades, if Sam had done it to Dean he would have been strung up by the fandom.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 09:27
Uhm... they had numerous fights ^^

I mean.. it starts with the pilot.

When Dean says, he lost his game and Sam does this thing with his legs and ... uhm.. sorry wrong thread.. shallow pool is over there.

:)

Sam gets browny points for great fighting, no matter who he is fighting!

Don´t hate ;)
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-11 11:25
oooh the thing with the legs ... and the holding of the wrist just before it .... where did you say the shallow pool was again?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 11:32
Quote:
oooh the thing with the legs ... and the holding of the wrist just before it .... where did you say the shallow pool was again?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-12-11 12:59
Oh yeah, I'm already in the deep end of that shallow pool! :D My favourite fight is the one from "Tall Tales", the tussle on the bed. We even get to see some Winchester belly! (deep sigh) That was a good one. :oops:
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 11:00
I actually find it interesting, that Soulless!Sam after he decided that he DIDN'T want his soul back didn't stoop this low. SS believed that getting his soul back would kill him, but he never tricked Dean into thinking that Lisa called him because she was in danger and used that time to run where Dean couldn't find him. The message was a crap move all the way around.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 11:11
No, he only tried to kill Bobby ;)
Which is infinitely better .
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-09 04:17
I think Sam needs to take a breather , away from the whole lot right now. From Dean , Amelia , the lot. But of course that wont happen because they need to close hell's gates .
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 12:04
Agree Sharon- In real life, this would be an option!
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 13:00
This is also an option for the show. It may not be a popular one, but this season, I think it would make sense to separate the boys completely for a few episodes. Sam is not really involved in the mytharc anyway. Maybe spend 2-3 episodes wrapping up his horrible arc w/Amelia and then have him returning to Dean.

Oh, and to be clear, I am not saying I would want to see 2-3 episodes fully devoted to Amelia/Sam, but they could split the episodes btw Dean/mytharc and the love (ugh) triangle!
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-09 14:39
True lala - I guess we were assuming that they would need to jump right back into the fray. You always make me smile in your unyielding dislike in all things Amelia :-) Even though I like her a little more than I did at first and I want to see Sam happy, this relationship doesn't feel right on many levels.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 07:50
From what I've gathered from spoilers there is an episode coming up which is really important for one of the brothers in terms of this seasons mythology (closing the gates) what if the writers are building to Sam basically goig from normal to realising/gaini ng perspective as to what this fight actually means, what closing thr gates means for the Winchester family? After all the years of crap? This could be Sam's reason to want to stay and want to hunt?

I hope its Sam any way. I think the episode is either 12 or 13.
kaj
# kaj 2012-12-09 05:56
Before I say anything, please sweetondean let me steal that pic where Dean's being handcuffed to the boiler. I think I will save that for my desktop. I just need a picture of Sammy being handcuffed as well to make it side to side hotness!!!

Dean's looking so hot with one eye closed (too bad we don't have him biting his tongue) opening the cuff.

Hhh... shallow pool dipping session. We really need that for hiatus.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 06:21
Help yourself kaj! Believe me if there was one biting his tongue I would have used it... ;-)

Stay tuned for the shallow pool dipping session...we should be able to dip mid next week :D
hedi
# hedi 2012-12-09 07:17
amazing as always.
I really enjoy reading your reviews because it helps me understand the boys' relationship much better.
I liked the episode fine , not so much but it was good to me. I get that why Sam is angry but man , he is way too angry! I know Sam was always angry and hot-headed and dean was always trying to calm him or John down , but I think Sam is angrier than ever! Both guys are in hard conflict and i truly hope they find themselves a way out soon!
Whoa, it's really a long hiatus! but next episode looks so interesting! I'm loving season 8 so far! YAY TO CARVER!
RGNYC Rebecca
# RGNYC Rebecca 2012-12-09 08:05
Thank you for your fabulous review. I agree with your points. Wanted to add about Sam that I think he is angry but that is from his broken heart and fear. (fear leads to anger)
I was wondering if Lizzie actually killed Martin. Maybe she pushed him into the fan somehow to protect Benny and he told her to let him take the blame.
Thank you for writing and for your theories. I live Supernatural! Cheers!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 13:40
Quote:
Wanted to add about Sam that I think he is angry but that is from his broken heart and fear. (fear leads to anger)
Hi Rebecca
Yep, totally agree, Sam is scared and we're seeing that take form as anger and we're really seeing the fear when he thinks someone he loves is in danger, as in Dean and the vamp nest and then this week Amelia. He looks panicked and terrified. I really feel for him.
Valgal
# Valgal 2012-12-09 08:45
Thank you SweetonDean.
When I first watched the episode, I was so upset, I turned off the tv and begn to look for reviews. The episode set off a chain reaction of emotions inside of me. Thank goodness, I've had a few days to breathe. Your analysis, as always, provided me with a more calm and balanced perspective. Dean is actually doing what he has always done-try to control situations and at all costs, protect those he loves. I know he loves Sammy and he loves Benny. I know there is no accident that Benny's life is mirroring the Winchester brothers'- the best thing you can do is get as far away from those you love because even though you don't intend to, you put them in harm's way. I am not sure what happened in the restaurant with Martin and Lizzie, but she has blood on her hands. Benny wouldn't have ever wanted that for his beloved kin. I am sure that Benny will ultimately end up back in Purgatory, where things are pure and simple and there is no bloodlust. And there is no kin who he could harm emotionally or spiritually.
But what about Sam? I believe that Sam is angry and underneath that anger is grief. He has lost so much and his attempts at what he believes are best for him always are thwarted. In the last scene he sits at the bar drinking whiskey. This echoes the behaviors of his beloved brother's Dean's approach to dealing with overwhelming feelings-drown them with alcohol until you can no longer feel.
This scenario ends a little differently because when Sam turns around, he will be challenged to confront those feelings when he sees Amelia. Will he swallow the pain, again, or dare to share some of it with Amelia- at least the part concerning her?

I like how the season is progressing...b ecause if it is about perception...wh ose perceptions are valid? in what instances?
Does one act as Dean does, protecting those we love because we believe we have the best solution? Do we do as Sam does, run to save someone we believe is in trouble at all costs?

These Winchesters are complicated and conflicted characters. That's why I love watching the show.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 08:15
The whole perception thing is really bothering me, so far we know Dean's perception of what happened to Cas in Purgatory was wrong but his perception of everything else so far has been right.

The audience have followed along with Dean's perception of everything and so far been right, Benny is a good guy like Dean perceived and Martin was a nutter like Dean perceived. Sam was wrong like Dean perceieved, Sam abandoned Dean to Purgatory like Dean perceived, he basically just found a girl and moved on like Dean perceived.

Sam didnt Dean or Benny his perceptions were wrong, he trusted Martin and his perception was wrong. His normal life has been show to the audience rather oddly in order to get them to question Sam's perception of it but so far his perception of it was right and the audience who thought it wasnt what it seemed were wrong but I dont think based on JC's interviews that they actually had any intention of Sam's flashbacks being taken as any more than face value, so most likely wishful thinking on the fans part.

So the only thing that has actually fit with the whole perception line has actually been Dean being wrong about what happened to Cas in Purgatory. From what I gather where it applies to Sam is in this episode where he perceived Benny to be the bad guy, Dean to not be trusted after his Purgatory experience and Martin to be mostly ok.

All the Sam being wrong stuff and Dean being right stuff isnt so much aboutperception as it about what SPN is about, what its always been about. Most of us guessed that Sam was wrong, Dean was right and Benny would be a good guy when the first spoilers were released.

I'm not sure this season is so much about perception as in 'not everything is as it seems' but more about playing to the usual fan perceptions of each character. Dean is always perceived as right, as loving, selfless, loyal etc and Sam is mostly perceived as wrong, bad, selfish. Mybe the writers are purposfully playing up to how the majority of fans perceive them to be.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-11 09:26
Quote:
The whole perception thing is really bothering me, so far we know Dean's perception of what happened to Cas in Purgatory was wrong but his perception of everything else so far has been right.

The audience have followed along with Dean's perception of everything and so far been right, Benny is a good guy like Dean perceived and Martin was a nutter like Dean perceived. Sam was wrong like Dean perceieved, Sam abandoned Dean to Purgatory like Dean perceived, he basically just found a girl and moved on like Dean perceived.

Sam didnt Dean or Benny his perceptions were wrong, he trusted Martin and his perception was wrong. His normal life has been show to the audience rather oddly in order to get them to question Sam's perception of it but so far his perception of it was right and the audience who thought it wasnt what it seemed were wrong but I dont think based on JC's interviews that they actually had any intention of Sam's flashbacks being taken as any more than face value, so most likely wishful thinking on the fans part.

So the only thing that has actually fit with the whole perception line has actually been Dean being wrong about what happened to Cas in Purgatory. From what I gather where it applies to Sam is in this episode where he perceived Benny to be the bad guy, Dean to not be trusted after his Purgatory experience and Martin to be mostly ok.

All the Sam being wrong stuff and Dean being right stuff isnt so much aboutperception as it about what SPN is about, what its always been about. Most of us guessed that Sam was wrong, Dean was right and Benny would be a good guy when the first spoilers were released.

I'm not sure this season is so much about perception as in 'not everything is as it seems' but more about playing to the usual fan perceptions of each character. Dean is always perceived as right, as loving, selfless, loyal etc and Sam is mostly perceived as wrong, bad, selfish. Mybe the writers are purposfully playing up to how the majority of fans perceive them to be.
You're probably right but how I wish that wasn't the case. I want Sam to be right about Benny so it generates some understanding from Dean. Or at least I hope it would do so.
Dean need to know what it feels like to be played.
BeccaB
# BeccaB 2012-12-09 09:11
Thank you so much for your review and story recap - "AWESOME" as usual.
I'm going to print it out and give it to all my non-Supernatura l watching friends and family. Along with my list of best myth-arc centric and best stand-alone episodes. They won't have an excuse that they don't start watching because they don't know what is going on. I keep telling them that Season 8 really isn't too late to start. It's my crusade, mission, quest!!!
Enough about me.

I absolute love this season and can't seem to stop watching it --with only one exception. Take a guess. Yelp "Bitten"

"Citizen Fang" particularly had it all. For all the reasons you have set forth. But I would like to speculate upon the ending a little. Elizabeth had just been nicked with Martins knife but when Dean found her on the stoop she seemed to be covered in blood. And Benny was gone. Now we know there was a vampire nest located nearby. What if -- Benny wasn't just gone but taken and Martin was gnawed on by another. Would love to hear what Elizabeth saw.

Just, like I said speculation. The story does seem to have a very "Heart"-type conclusion coming.

GOD I LOVE THIS SHOW
BeccaB
# BeccaB 2012-12-09 09:14
Oh - one other thing, sorry guys, why can't an angel "fix" a vamp. It seems the least Cas could do.
Michele Hughes
# Michele Hughes 2012-12-09 10:01
Blimey sweetondean, such a fascinating review plus analysis plus meta - I really enjoyed that, HEAPS! I'm going to have to read it a second time just to get my head around all the interesting analysis you've included. Your review has actually made me feel a little hopeful, about Sam and Dean's relationship, for the first time in bloody ages - thank you very much :-)
Myra
# Myra 2012-12-09 11:43
As always... great article! I feel better about the episode now, thanks. I also enjoyed all the pretty pictures :-)
Giorgia
# Giorgia 2012-12-09 12:17
great review Amy!
and great recap of the bro's history since S1...
if I can add something: remember "Scarecrow"? how - after the big fight (Sam left Dean to go after John) - they kind of made peace but without even talking about it. I always found that moment so sweet, but now I realize it's their attitude of not-solving problems, not discussing their issues...so yes there is a lot under the surface...and I'd love to see everything coming out and being solved (and well explained, 'caus I need answers myself from the two of them!)...and then...a big brotherly hug...

cannot wait!
redheadedali
# redheadedali 2012-12-09 12:24
This is the best commentary on this season that I've seen so far. I agree with all of it (except I hope Benny doesn't die - because I freaking LOVE Benny) (but if he does die, I like the Dean-mercy-kill ing angle - I really hope it isn't Sam who takes him out, because there's no way that wouldn't be horrible).

Also, I kind of hope Elizabeth becomes a recurring character. I really liked her, and we seem to have a shortage of awesome ladies on the show at the moment (Naomi obviously doesn't count, and Mrs. Tran started out promising but is now just kind of annoying).
st50
# st50 2012-12-09 14:12
On reading your article again, two things struck me. First, I adore this quote:
"But they’re gigantic, burley blokes and they butt heads, a lot."
:D

And second, this part made me so sad,
"…if Sam left because he wanted to give Amelia and Don a shot, that when we saw him leaving it was after one last night together, then this whole time, Sammy would’ve been looking at his phone, hoping that Amelia would ring to say that she didn’t want her ex, that she’d chosen Sam and that it was all over with Don… But his phone has never rung, so he’s known and would’ve been dealing with the fact that his girl didn’t pick him. "
:cry:
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 15:25
Yeah...as soon as I soon Amelia on the couch with Don I thought that. That Sam would have intellectually known, because he hadn't heard from her, but it wouldn't have stopped him thinking about the possibility, hoping that maybe she'd still call... Hoping that she'd realise he was who she wanted to be with. But it looks like she chose Don.... :cry: That's if the timings match of course.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 15:35
But I hope that it doesn't come out that Sam dropped the hunt and everything because he thought Amelia was going to take him back?

That actually would be a priorities issue! :o
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 15:41
Quote:
But I hope that it doesn't come out that Sam dropped the hunt and everything because he thought Amelia was going to take him back?

That actually would be a priorities issue! :o
I think more he thought something had got a hold of her. That's a definite possibility. How do you best get at the brothers? Take the people they love. I'm sure he was thinking she was in trouble.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 15:43
Oh good, cause the other suggestion really upsets me!

I need to go do something non-SPN related for a bit, ... :sigh:
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 15:45
No, no...it just occurred to me when he saw Don and Amelia together, that maybe he'd been hoping to get a call from her saying she'd picked him... If that's how they left it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 15:57
I just checked the message Sam got was "Sam I need your help. Come quick" Nothing in that says to me that Sam thought Amelia wanted him back, only that she was in some kind of trouble. It was an alarming message, especially for a guy in a career that gets you followed by monsters who may want to hurt someone you love.
st50
# st50 2012-12-09 15:44
I don't think that would have happened.
He wouldn't have been panicked to get to her, if he thought she wanted him over Don.. He'd have been really pleased to be heading that way.
Now... whether or not that's where it goes after the bar scene.... who knows.
E
# E 2012-12-09 14:14
Hi Sweetondean. Another lovely article, you always have great insight. A few of your points lean in Dean's direction, and mine tend to lean towards Sam, but I agree with most of what you said. I do think that JC is deliberately going back to the original issues that were presented between the brothers way back at the start and many of those issues are still unresolved. I really appreciated the walk down memory lane you presented; Ah, those innocent salad days!
There is one comment you made that I do want to pick at just a little...

Quote:
but I also think, he’s mad as hell that he’s back doing the one thing he thought he got away from again. He’s back hunting. I think he’s pissed. All these flashbacks he’s having to his life with Amelia. He’s obviously thinking about it constantly. Well at least three times every 42 minutes! It looks to me like it’s eating him up. It looks like he feels like he’s been dragged back to following orders like a good little soldier and his brother is calling the shots once again. He’s given up everything for Dean and the family, once again.
I have no doubt that Sam is angry about a lot of things, but I don't think that he is angry at Dean for pulling him back into the life, because Dean didn't pull Sam back in, and Sam knows this. Sam's idealized life collapsed independently of Dean and if Dean were still in purgatory, Sam would still be without Amelia, back to drifting and being alone. I don't see Sam as letting Dean call the shot or following orders, I see him as going his own way. I actually think that this may be part of Dean's problem this season; Sam certainly seems to be functioning independently, and when he and Dean are not on the same page, Sam's going his own way and not consulting Dean about it either. Sam may not be thrilled to be hunting again, by I do not get the impression he is in any way holding Dean responsible for that.
st50
# st50 2012-12-09 15:01
Quote:

I have no doubt that Sam is angry about a lot of things, but I don't think that he is angry at Dean for pulling him back into the life, because Dean didn't pull Sam back in, and Sam knows this.
I agree with both you, E, and with sweetondean.
Sam IS mad that he's hunting again. But circumstances (fate, if you will) have conspired to make that happen. Not Dean.
In the S8 premiere, Dean was shocked when Sam said he'd help get Kevin. Sam had said he didn't hunt any more, and Dean believed him then. Sam is angry as h-e-double-hock ey-sticks that he's hunting again, and not living some Safe Normal Life, but in no way does he blame Dean for it. - Just like he didn't blame Dean for it way back in the pilot.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 15:15
I think he's angry that this has happened but I think it's all mixed up with everything. Part of the reason his flashbacks are so glowy, I think is because he's hanging on to that, romantising it, hanging on to what could have been. Of course, it was over before Dean came back into the picture.

I agree I don't think he blames Dean directly, that's not actually what I meant. It's more about the situation he's found himself in once more and that he's back doing this and scared and just so on the edge....again.

But I also think, he's in a bad place emotionally and that just amplifies everything.
E
# E 2012-12-10 08:59
Yes, he's certainly angry about the situation, that's very true. It drives home to me again though how sad it is that Sam is romanticizing so totally what he had with Amelia, because, with very few exceptions, it doesn't look all that fun, romantic or satisfying. In most of the FB"s he's stiff, uncomfortable, sad or panicked. And yet, he seems to be incredibly protective of these memories of something that isn't actually that great. The only FB he's had that is actually somewhat nice, is the small scene in the yard where Sam says to Amelia, "you saved me." (And boy, do I hope the flesh that little tid-bit out!). In that one scene I could see why he might have felt happy, all the rest so far? Not so much.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 09:21
Maybe not happy, he would be grieving Dean and probably Bobby, but starting to find peace and some contentment is possible. For the first time in years, Sam isn't fighting for his life, wading through blood, being tortured or having hallucinations of being tortured. If Sam makes a mistake fixing the ice machine people don't die. Amelia may not be a grand passion, but she is a wounded soul. She covers her wounds with antagonism at first, but eventually she seems to have become someone Sam can relax with. As they got together she stopped judging him. She doesn't remind him that he "betrayed" her. She isn't expecting him to help save the world. Heck, with her he can buy organic foods and eat the way he wants, and she doesn't rag him. Yes, she serves spaghetti and hot dogs once, but that is part of a family ritual and that makes Sam part of a family, even if Dean isn't there.

There were so many pitfalls in creating a character like Amelia. Fans tend not to like romantic interests and romantic stories have not been handled well. Limiting Sam's life to a few disjointed flashbacks didn't help either. FBs of Purgatory are exciting and with Dean saying it was a constant fight, but pure it's easier to tie into. A man finding a peaceful place after a life of war needs time to be explored to do it justice and you don't have time for that story in Supernatural

I'm going with Sam was tired and grieving and he found someone who was also tired and grieving and they found comfort in each other. I'm going with it because I think that is what they were going for. I don't dislike Amelia, I come to like her, but I think Carver's decision to go with romance was one that was hard to pull off. Plus, I'm thinking that Carver is playing his cards close to his chest and there is more to Sam's year than we know, which doesn't help flesh Amelia out either.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 09:30
uhm... yes.
Pretty much yes.

Though I DO think, after Citizen Fang, there might have been better chemistry between the actors.
It worked great with Amelias Dad... I believed that. It pulled me in and I followed it with interest.

Her and Sam? Not so much.

But I absolutely am happy, that Sam had that... and he so totally needed that. A place to just calm down and rest and put himself back together.

A funny thing, I noticed, while rewatching Season 1:

Dean tries to start several talks about Jessi and Sam´s nightmares and Sam always brushes him off.
He doesn´t tell him, why he feels so guilty about Jess´ death until it´s impossible to hide, that he has premonitions.
And he has been having heavy nightmares and trouble sleeping for months at that point.

SAM is the one, who is extremely closed up, when it comes to his own feelings.
Yes, he always inquires Dean, how he´s feeling and coping and stuff, but he never talks about himself, even if Dean is asking and asking.

I forgot that... how could I have forgotten that?
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 08:42
Which is why its always quite laughable when people talk about how Dean doesnt talk about his feelings, how do I always know whats going on with Dean and what he's feeling yet have to come to a site like this to get a fans perspective on what Sam could be going through or feeling? Sam has always been the introverted one, when was the last time he actually had someone to talk to about whats going on with him?

Even with Amelia we know he kept a lot of himself hidden, she doesnt know anything about his hunting life or what he went through over the years. If the Sam/Amelia thing is indeed over now then Sam will most likely go back to being the guy who researched or stands quitely in the back ground while his brother does all the talking. I'm sure we have yet to get plenty of emo/angst and teary eyed conversations/c onfessions from Dean over his Purgatory experience, I have no doubt Sam will be a symapthetic ear fro his brother.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 08:47
also if I were Sam I wouldnt want to discuss anything Amelia related with Dean anyway, for a start he knows Dean doesnt want to hear it and also really what would be the point? Anything Sam says or soes is likely to used against him at a later date so its better to keep everything to himself.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 09:00
Hating much?

Dean, despite being a mean bitch, cares about his brother.
Yes, sometimes, he doesn´t get the important points, but after the thing with Jess, he was so concerned and caring. When Maddison happened, he CRIED for his brother´s pain.

Yes, Dean uses things against Sam, but never things that he knows are really important to Sam... unless of course, it´s something between the two of them (like their relationship, trust and so on)
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-11 09:32
Quote:
Hating much?

Dean, despite being a mean bitch, cares about his brother.
Yes, sometimes, he doesn´t get the important points, but after the thing with Jess, he was so concerned and caring. When Maddison happened, he CRIED for his brother´s pain.

Yes, Dean uses things against Sam, but never things that he knows are really important to Sam... unless of course, it´s something between the two of them (like their relationship, trust and so on)
I have to disagree that he never uses things against Sam that he knows are important to him. He's said that Sam always hooks up with monsters. Jessica and the doctor were not monsters. Maybe the reason Sam doesn't tell him anything is because Dean uses it against him.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 09:38
read my post again, please

Quote:
Yes, Dean uses things against Sam, but never things that he knows are really important to Sam... unless of course, it´s something between the two of them (like their relationship, trust and so on)
He never used Jess´ death against Sam, he never used Madison

He gave him a hard time, because of the doctor and him having sex with her, while they thaught, she was the MOTW, yes.
Where Sam btw, was absolutely right and she wasn´t, no matter how Dean wanted to believe.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 10:17
I totally disagree. Telling Sam the he always sleeps with monsters totally dismisses Jess and directly uses Madison against him. He didn't say since I come back from Hell you only sleep with monsters. He didn't say after Jess died, you only sleep with monsters. He rubbed Sam's nose in the fact that Madison was a monster, though not by her own will and she wasn't born that way. It was one of the cruelest things Dean ever said to Sam, and IIR, it was way before the Siren infected him.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 10:21
alright, I concur.

;)
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 11:27
man for all the crap we go on at Sam about Dean sure has said some horrible things to his brother, how comes so many people can remember ever time Sam has slighted Dean but not the other way round?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 11:45
Quote:
man for all the crap we go on at Sam about Dean sure has said some horrible things to his brother, how comes so many people can remember ever time Sam has slighted Dean but not the other way round?
People do.

They just don´t dish it out as much, as you do with Sam´s crap.

It´s part of what he is and what they are.

They say crap... and next time, they say something totally sweet.

Dean might have said the thing with Sam and monsters... but he DID cry for and with him, when he had to kill Madison.

He may slight him for the thing with Amelia, but he also said "That´s my boy" when Sam kissed Sarah

^^

He´s an idiot, a big, sometimes dumb, lovable idiot.
They both are.
Ok, Sam is less dumb, but more idiotic sometimes.
E
# E 2012-12-11 19:22
Dean actually DID use Madison against Sam in Sex and Violence when he said the following:

"first it's Madison, then Ruby, and now Cara. What is with you and banging monsters?"

And in Metamorphosis Dean says:
"You know, nice dude, but he's got something evil inside. Something in his blood. Maybe you can relate."

In both instances Dean is using something that is important to Sam (Madison and the fact that he's got demon blood inside him) against him. And this season Dean is using Sam's Soullessness, his trip to the pit and their own brotherhood against him. So, it's pretty easy for me to see why Sam might like to keep some details about Amelia to himself.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 08:50
I don´t think, there will be any teary eyed confessions from Dean.
He already had it, Sam listened, gave him some advice ("suvivor´s guilt?" Oh, Sammy... you would know... you would know how it can destroy a person...), a slap on the shoulder and that´s it.

Dean actually handled that one head on with Cas. Grabbed him, talked, got his answers... and done.

Don´t forget: Dean kind of liked purgatory. That wasn´t another hell for him. That was WHO HE IS.
It was actually Purgatory for him. Cleansing, pure and absolutely not complicated.

While Sam´s life was very complicated... and still jsut am waiting for him to finally break.
Dean is ok.
Sam isn´t.
I´m not sure, he knows, why he isn´t, why he always is on the verge of a panic attack himself.
He needs to work this out, mulling it over and over in this brilliant head of his.
All by himself.
Only then, we might get to hear any of it....

Unless of course, Dean finally sees, what´s going on with his brother and makes him talk.
He can do that...
He only would have to see, what Sam is hiding so well.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 08:34
My guess is they havent shown Sam/Amelai to be overly sweet/sappy in order to avoid the fan uproar, after all they want to do a storyline that SPN just doesnt do and make it fit. I just think they're been smart and held back from making it to mushy and showing to much of it. Also as this is a Sam storyline its unlikely to get the kind of focus it deserves.
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-13 12:52
OMG, I love how you wrote this. I sometimes feel like the only one who appreciates Amelia, and is glad that she was there for Sam, and frankly I hope Sam and Amelia can work it out.

What I think (hope) will happen is- the brothers will separate for a few episodes, and Sam will win back Amelia from Don. (sorry those who don't like her, I'm glad she's there, and glad she can be there for Sam)

MEANwhile, Dean is off with his new buddy Benny, and Benny's hunger gets the best of him. We don't know that Sam was wrong about him. Do we know for sure that Benny didn't kill those people? No. Do we know anything really about Desmond and what he did? No. Do we know for sure that Lizzie wasn't involved in Martins's death? No. It pretty certain that some vamp, most likely Benny, killed Martin, and go their hunger on doing it.

All we have for Benny's side of the story- is Benny's word. Dean may think Benny's word is Gold, but I don't, and frankly Dean's judgement of Benny is clouded by purgatory. Sam has to come to the rescue, and give Benny that close shave. A win for brotherhood.
janiebee64
# janiebee64 2012-12-09 14:49
That is the one thing that really made me angry about the dirty move Dean pulled on Sam with the text. Dean not once has ask Sam about his year..his time with Amelia and anything that happened. So Dean doesn't about Don's return..Sam choosing to walk away to give them a chance. He doesn't know about Sam running scared after Dean disappeared and how Amelia saved him. I believe Sam would be dead right now if not for Amelia. So pulling that text message move and pushing Sam back into that situation without knowing the whole story was dirty. And I know you said that Sam's not talking or showing what's going on with him, but that's Sam and Dean knows this. He's knows he has to pull that out of him. It's sad to me that he's so out of tune with his brother that he's not seeing that. And what's really even sadder is that Sam's has taken the time to talk to Dean several times about his time in Purgatory..star ting with the premiere. He even chose to sit up all night with Dean when he first came back because Dean couldn't rest. And he got Dean to talk about it. Why can't Dean do the same for Sam? Maybe now he will.

This episode was heartbreaking and now I have to wait 6 weeks, but you review gives me hope. Like you I know under all this anger, resentment, and mistrust runs a love so deep that it holds these boys together. In the end, it's that love that will bring them together. I can't wait to see them air all this out and became that close knit unit again.
Take care,
Jane
winmomwannabe
# winmomwannabe 2012-12-09 15:14
Super review. Thought to ponder. Do siblings EVER really get stuff out in the open and deal with it? Seems to me to keep a semblance of 'peace' in a family there is ALWAYS a bit of deep regret, jealousy, hurt, guilt and more, lurking deep within family members. At some point in time one either spills their guts or accepts that they will NEVER see a situation the same and move on the best they can. We all choose our path.

I ache for the boys constantly. As I said before, I have 3 sons and totally want them to be close. But they are 3 very different individuals with hopes and dreams of their own. I can't imagine them ever getting along 100% of the time if they worked along side each other day in and day out. (All that testosterone would probably lead to physical outbursts.) Plus, had no real outside relationships. I mean really. We are looking through rose colored glasses.(Beauti ful roses by the way)

I don't know if all of us are female that post, but I get the impression most of us are. We can't help but look at the boys' relationship from our 'perspective'. We are so different and that's what makes it so hard to watch sometimes. We probably would do things different, but we aren't them. Sadly they are probably acting more realistic than we want them to and that hurts. Like I said, deep, deep resentments, hurts, etc. Thanks for reminding us of where they started and sometimes haven't progressed much from that point. But, can't move on if it all stays buried deep.
dinkwerks
# dinkwerks 2012-12-09 15:17
Loved your review....kinda calmed me down after looking at all the other reviews.....I do remember that the brothers have been split apart during the other seasons, so we know that the writers will get them back together. Just like a good soap opera. However, it's gonna be a long wait.
Izanamii
# Izanamii 2012-12-09 15:46
Ah these two are definitely growing up, as it was said they would, and it’s a really great experience. I was a little late in the game when it came to Supernatural, but when I watched the Pilot I couldn’t stop watching it. I usually don’t like t.v. shows because the special effects are cheesy or because of the acting being terrible or overdone. This is not the case with Supernatural. They don’t go overboard on the special effects, and their acting is phenomenal. Some of the people they’ve worked with, not so much, but they were usually minor characters for a reason. But you can really see the progression of the two and season 8 is a huge leap away from season 1, I think. At least with their personalities and thinking processes. There are definitely still the issues and those never went away throughout the seasons and would always become a problem. Whether by some supernatural interference or otherwise, they always were an issue and knowing these two brothers and the way they handle things, it probably will continue to be a problem.

The thing is, they take these problems and they turn hostile, attacking each other and seeing everything with tunnel vision. So in this episode it was nice to see it come to the surface. What Dean said to Sam about all his relationships going to crap at one point or another except Benny’s, it was a really great moment because Dean said that himself, not under the influence of something else. He said that, and Sam retorted with a sarcastic remark and Dean knew what he said and didn’t even apologize. Though it lengthened the gap between them, it was a massive step up because Dean said what he felt, and even though he could have worded it way better and Sam could have tried to figure out what was going on in Dean’s head with Benny, it was progress. Of course, these are the Winchester brothers and these things will never happen. At least, I don’t think so. Not in the way we want them to. All we really want is for Dean to sit down with Sam like he did for Cas and say “talk to me”. Of course, we all would be equally as happy if Sam did the same thing. For once, though, I think it would be nice if Dean listened to Sam’s issues and tried to understand him.

They have come to terms with a lot of the things they both have done over the years, but of course there are still the huge issues of abandonment and Dean not wanting to be alone and Sam wanting a better life, a safe and normal life like he wanted way back in season 1. Sam has shouldered a lot of things, though, that have gone on with Dean. Like when Dean finally decided to open up to Sam about his time in Hell. Sam hasn’t had a lot of instances to tell Dean what’s going on, and I think that’s another reason they both shut themselves in with their issues. Sam and Dean are not used to opening up, and probably never will be. They lie about 99.9% of their life to people 24/7 so they can hunt and try to save people and do what they do best. John taught them from the start to keep that life to themselves, and to not let your emotions get in the way of your job.

Burying their emotions is all Dean has known, so it takes a lot for him to open up, hence the supernatural interference. Or when he does open up on his own accord, he reverts back to where he was, back to square one and pretending it never happened. Finally these two have their issues laid out in their faces even though it’s a really big mess of anger and tension. And we get to see how mature they are about them. What Dean did with the phone was indeed a dick move, taking it at face value. However, like a lot of people have been saying, it was to protect both Sam and Benny. He was in hunter-mode, as I’d like to see it. He has trust issues regarding Sam because he didn’t look for Dean over that year. Of course, we still don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s what Dean believes and that’s what he’s going to continue to believe unless Sam decides to fill him in on everything. He was thinking practically, strategically, and did not care about the emotional impact it would have on Sam. He doesn’t know Amelia and Sam hasn’t told Dean how much he loved Amelia and how she impacted his life, so he didn’t really care that he used her to get Sam away. He didn’t want to see Sam get hurt if Benny came out on top, and he didn’t want to see Benny dead if Sam managed to kill him. They’re both strong and they’re both brothers to Dean so that’s his thinking process.

Now it’s up to Sam to lay it on Dean what really was going on. Dean is oblivious to Sam being hurt and distracted. He is only concerned that Sam is with him again and they’re hunting. So with this episode, with everything boiling at the surface, I hope that they can come to terms with each other. They won’t understand each other, not completely, and all that’s left is for them to at least try, or at least have it out in the open so they know what’s going on and come to an agreement with it all and figure out their next step in their lives. With Cas coming back into the story and Crowley, it looks like, we’re returning to the myth arc yet again. Cas tells them both to stow their crap because there’s a bigger picture to be seen with what’s going on in the world and with the angels, and this makes me think that their issues are going to get buried yet again until a later date when we have that talked-about moment between Dean and Sam sitting down like adults with their problems.

SO. MY GOD. This thing is so long and all over the place. I do hope that if Benny is killed off, it’s Dean doing it as a mercy thing or because he has to. And that Sam is there with him. Because as Dean has said, he’s “tired of burying friends”. It would suck if Dean has to go through that alone. Plus it would just be way better because I was seriously disappointed when Sam was the one to kill Alastair. It was an injustice to Dean, in my eyes. Sure, he may have been an emotional wreck and a piece of him was missing, but I seriously wished it had been him to kill Alastair. BUT ANYWAYS. Off topic like, 80% of this huge ass spiel.

In other words, I, once again, agree with you wholeheartedly, sweetondean. I like where the brothers are at right now, as much as it sucks at the same time. I like where this season is heading, and I do hope they bring Elizabeth back. That whole scene with Martin, Liz, and Benny was super fantastic. Especially the look Liz and Benny traded when his head was on the counter, the way she tilted her head and the emotion on her face and just fffff. Ty Olsson did phenomenal. Everyone did, really. I apologize for this long, rambling mess. Haha.
Bevie
# Bevie 2012-12-09 15:53
I loved your article/review sweetondean! And please know I am one who agrees with you almost 99.9% of the time. 8)

Anyway, I too love these boys desperately and know they love each other the same way, and I get so frustrated that they can't seem to make each other KNOW that! The hurts that fly back and forth between them are so destructive because of the depth of that love and not because they want to replace the other with someone new. But they don't know that, do they? I do so hope we can see them again comfortable and trusting with each other before the series ends. (and I'd like Dean to accept the amulet back from Sammy, as I do believe he retrieved it from the trash)

It would be great if they could have their own friends without the other thinking they are being deserted or replaced. No other could ever replace either, but their insecurities keep them from that knowledge. Dean's fear of abandonment and Sam's seeming fear of being replaced. :sigh:

Dean's trick to get Sam out of there was shear genius, as Dean has learned to expect the unexpected from his little brother in the past. It kept Benny and Sam alive and was entirely worth the crap he will get from doing it. (He's already getting crap from lots of fans for it) I'm glad he kept them from fighting. They might have killed each other! So, good on you Dean! But wow, is Sam mad or what? Don't remember seeing him so steamed at Dean before.

I hope Benny doesn't end like Madison, asking to be killed. Geez, I like Benny and I like Dean having a friend he can depend on. Wish Cas could send Sammy to purgatory to witness what went on there so he could understand. Don't know why he is so very down on monsters, when he used to be the one to give the benefit of the doubt many times about killing evil, not monsters.

Some fans think the writers are trying to get rid of Sam and replace him with Benny. They said the same things 4 years ago about Cas. Neither Sam nor Dean will ever be replaced and with the brothers apart, there would be no show to watch. The writers know that, so guys, stop worrying about that!

And, sweetondean, like you, I am looking forward to this being hashed out between them and finally get some understanding of each other and the affection and trust to return so they can be comfortable together again. They'll still spat and fight and disagree like they did at the start and that's what brothers do. They'll never be mushy mushy, but remember the end of the Christmas show that brought tears to my eyes. I want that again for them. :-)
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-09 16:38
Was Sam just supposed to embrace Benny? apart from the fact Dean played shifty with him with Benny from the start on top of that Dean has put Sam down as a brother since he came back ( and it goes beyond just being hurt of Sam not looking) just because Benny is Dean's Buzz Lightyear to Sam's Woody

Sam doesnt tend to be down on monsters if he has reasons and thats why Dean approaching it differently might of helped.
Karen Graham
# Karen Graham 2012-12-09 17:38
I love reading all the comments as much as I love reading sweetondean's wrap... there are so many great ideas and interpretations floating around... some of them reflect my own thoughts and others make me think, wow, that's a different take; something I hadn't thought of. So thanks everyone :-)

There is another possible scenario for Benny... that he saves Sam at some point in the future. Although I guess that's how Benny won the trust of Castiel, so they might not go down that same path. But, if he saves Sam, perhaps Benny could survive season 8... PRETTY PLEASE!

Also, I think we all agree that Dean & Sam just need to talk to out... and have that BIG HUG! But first, they have to get over their "no chick-flick moments" mentality :P
sylia91
# sylia91 2012-12-09 20:21
As always your reviews are pretty much in line with my thinking on each episode. I completely agree that the conflicts this season aren't new, just with more fuel to the fire after recent years of a lot more stress and strife but I noticed like with any siblings as much as the brothers had issues with each other no one was allowed to criticize the other brother. Sam almost took off Martin's head for the woodshed comment and Dean kept warning Benny not to underestimate Sam's prowess as a hunter, he did pretty much teach his brother most of what he knows as a hunter. Poor Sam is feeling very much displaced and is hurting and angry. Dean seemingly is picking Benny over him and Amelia apparently has picked Don over him as well. Dean, the epitomy of loyalty, is being pulled in two directions trying to protect his brother and his friend. The preview after hellatus is promising with Cas delivering some tough love to the 2 brothers, let's see how much of this they can work out so they can move on.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 20:41
Quote:
...but I noticed like with any siblings as much as the brothers had issues with each other no one was allowed to criticize the other brother. Sam almost took off Martin's head for the woodshed comment and Dean kept warning Benny not to underestimate Sam's prowess as a hunter
Yes, I thought this was fantastic. They can say what they like about each other, but apparently no-one else can. At least in this case.

They totally reminded me of my twin neices here. The girls fight and can be crazy mean to each other but woe and betide anyone who says anything negative about one sister to the other! Even if it's in support!

These scenes with Sam and Dean totally reminded me of them!
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 08:58
Theres been a lot of fnas over the past few years complaining that Sam never really apologised to Dean for everything that he did and continues to do, and that Dean has always given Sam a feww pass because Dean's not allowed to mad at anyone and always has to do the apologising. I wont if Jeremy Carver is bascially bring all Sam's wrongs to the forefront in order for that apology to happen? There are plenty of fans who thing Sam is a crapypy brother to Dean and will be delighted Dean is finally telling Sam so, I think JC is basically reiterating that point, trying to give the fans wha they want in the hopes that he may then be able to rebuild the relationship which has been seen as broken by many for too long. Perhaps he's trying to deconstruct Sam in having him realise shat a shit brother he is and a crappy human being so he can rebuild him into the brother Dean wants and the fans think he deserves?

Will Sam be sorry, gung ho for hunting, listen to Dean and follow Dean's instincts on everything by the end of the season? I can see the writers heading that way, obviously they need to get Sam to be over Amelai and realise he doesnt want normal first.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 09:00
please ignore the numerous spelling mistakes, I'm typing this at work trying not to get caught, so its quick and messy.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-11 09:38
Sam has apologized to Dean about the things he's done. I'm wanting Dean to apologize to Sam for the things he's said to him.

Why should Sam have to change who he is for Dean? Sorry but that would be wrong on every level. Sam does not have to be Dean's slave. He's alway been independent and I want him to continue to be that way.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 10:19
I totally agree on this. Sam should be able to want what he wants and get some compromise from Dean on getting it.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 13:52
Responded to in the What's happening to Sam thread.
Karen Graham
# Karen Graham 2012-12-09 20:23
Woops... I meant to say 'Dean & Sam just need to talk it out'...

And another thought on the future of Benny... maybe Sam can witness Benny saving Dean or sacrificing himself for Dean... although the last scenario just makes me sad : (
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 22:41
If Benny is a good guy that's possible. If he isn't Sam may catch him drinking someone and has to convince Dean that Benny has fallen off the wagon.

I know Amelia isn't overly liked here but did anyone else notice that when Sam told Amelia that Don had come to see him that the first words out of her mouth were "Did he hurt you"? That isn't what I would expect someone to ask first. "What did he say" or "What did you guys talk about", but "Did he hurt you" is not a good sign, because it means Amelia has reason to think Don is ready, willing and able to hurt someone.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-09 23:15
Quote:
did anyone else notice that when Sam told Amelia that Don had come to see him that the first words out of her mouth were "Did he hurt you"? That isn't what I would expect someone to ask first. "What did he say" or "What did you guys talk about", but "Did he hurt you" is not a good sign, because it means Amelia has reason to think Don is ready, willing and able to hurt someone.
That's an interesting catch - hmmmm.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 23:24
Hi percysowner
I also thought Amelia's first response was odd... I thought it was an odd conclusion to jump to. Maybe it was because Sam had changed his mind, so Amelia instantly thought he'd been threatened? But it made me wonder about Don.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-09 23:34
Well, it could mean nothing, but I thought it was pretty stand-up of Don to tell Sam he understood that she loves him too, now, and to let Amelia decide between them, rather than punching him out or something. That suggests a reasonable guy who cares about his woman's opinion.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 23:37
He did indeed seem reasonable. That was a respectful and understanding conversation between Sam and Don.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-09 23:47
It is an interesting question - and there have been a few apparently non-sequitur points thrown in throughout the season. (like 'I knew it was you' from episode 8.1)

We only saw the two seated but Don doesn't look like a particularly big guy so we have to assume that for Amelia to jump to that question straight away he must have some history of being aggressive. (I am not going to assume that all military people are automatically aggressive).

Maybe it is my history of watching too many thrillers but I didn't feel that Don was coming across as being entirely reasonable in the conversation in the bar, what he was saying and the tone he was using didn't seem to match.

Of course the happy couple that Sam saw through the window would seem to contradict that.

Also there is no way that Amelia could have seen Sam outside in the dark, and the car wasn't Sam's - so how did she find him at the bar - and which bar? Did they have a local? Why would her husband have no problem with her up and leaving him in the middle of the evening either with no explanation or a REALLY bad one?

And finally the idea that anyone would be afraid of Sam getting hurt by their human husband leads us to believe that Amelia has never seen anything unusual or supernatural while with Sam. So at the very least their life together must have been pretty normal.

Or they have both been manipulated by outside forces (because I am not giving up on this theory yet).
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 23:52
I wondered if Amelia and Don simply went to that bar, rather than Amelia saw Sam in the dark outside the window...but it's a stretch and all too coincidental and coincidences and Supernatural don't mix and we have to wait a damn long time to find out!
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 00:00
To be honest I think that they coincidentally went to the bar and Amelia recognized Sam there actually makes more sense than her having really fantastic eyesight!

Also, since I posted, oh 10 minutes ago, I have been trying to think what a 'reasonable' tone of voice for the Sam and Don conversation might have sounded like ... and I can't think of one that is any better than what we saw ... and some of the ideas are making me laugh :D So maybe it was exactly what it looked like!
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-10 00:12
eilf I think you're right, it looks how it is. It was a strange remark from Amelia but I think that was more about Sam's sudden change of heart. But I thought the conversation between Sam and Don was very reasonable and my conclusion, at this point, about the meeting is that it was just fate that she'd go there and see him and recognise that back. I mean, I'd recognise that back too I reckon!
Becky
# Becky 2012-12-10 18:14
It IS a very nice back! :)
st50
# st50 2012-12-10 00:14
Quote:
.... they coincidentally went to the bar and Amelia recognized Sam there .....
That's exactly what I thought happened. But coincidence? Strange.

I just rewatched Heartache, and a lot of the reactions in that one make a lot more sense given what we've now learned about Sam and Amelia's relationship... .
I'm now leaning more towards EVERYTHING is just what we've seen...
Maybe all this panic attack stuff with Sam is being blown out of proportion as well. Maybe he simple doesn't want to be there anymore, and I'm reaching for reasons that make sense with who I want Sam to be.
I don't know. I go back and forth.... Is it a "perception" issue, and they're all being manipulated, or is it simply a reset to the beginning so they can deal with their issues.
I thought they were going with PTSD for Dean, but that died. I thought maybe Amelia wasn't entirely real, but that looks wrong now, too. I thought Sam was having major issues... But maybe not?
:o
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-10 00:19
I'm seriously looking forward to watching the eps over and all in one hit...pretty much. That's my plan for this weekend I think!
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-09 20:40
The no chick flick moment is all Dean. Sam has tried many times to talk to Dean in the 7 prior seasons and has been shot down. So, MO is that if this is ever going to happen, Dean is going to have to talk to his brother. After 7 seasons of being shut down whenever he tries to have a talk about how he feels and Dean cutting him off at the knees, I'm not sure that Sam is willing to risk it again.
Karen Graham
# Karen Graham 2012-12-09 22:20
Quote:
The no chick flick moment is all Dean.
That's true... and I don't think Dean has changed at all in this regard. Remember early in Season 7 when Bobby tried to get Dean to talk about how he was coping (when Dean was spending all his time worrying about Sam)... I can't remember exactly what Dean said to Bobby, but it was along the same lines!

Sam doesn't mind the 'chick-flick moments', but he is keeping a lot to himself this season and I really think it's because he feels guilty about letting Dean down (in the same way he felt guilty about letting Kevin down).

But don't get me wrong, that's not what I think, particularly as we still don't know what happened in those initial weeks/months after Dean disappeared. But I believe Sam does feel guilt, in addition to the anger and fear that others have mentioned. Basically, Sam is a mess right now and I think it's so sad :sad:

I also think that Sam would not want to complain to Dean about his own suffering because he knows that Dean must've suffered horrifically in purgatory. Talking about his own pain in light of that just wouldn't be Sam's style.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-11 09:41
Quote:
Quote:
The no chick flick moment is all Dean.
That's true... and I don't think Dean has changed at all in this regard. Remember early in Season 7 when Bobby tried to get Dean to talk about how he was coping (when Dean was spending all his time worrying about Sam)... I can't remember exactly what Dean said to Bobby, but it was along the same lines!

Sam doesn't mind the 'chick-flick moments', but he is keeping a lot to himself this season and I really think it's because he feels guilty about letting Dean down (in the same way he felt guilty about letting Kevin down).

But don't get me wrong, that's not what I think, particularly as we still don't know what happened in those initial weeks/months after Dean disappeared. But I believe Sam does feel guilt, in addition to the anger and fear that others have mentioned. Basically, Sam is a mess right now and I think it's so sad :sad:

I also think that Sam would not want to complain to Dean about his own suffering because he knows that Dean must've suffered horrifically in purgatory. Talking about his own pain in light of that just wouldn't be Sam's style.
Maybe it's because he feels guilty but I'm leaning more toward he thinks Dean doesn't want to hear it.
jily4
# jily4 2012-12-09 23:01
Well Damn!!! I wrote a longish comment that just wouldn't post and I don't want to write again!! I do want to say again how much I like your reviews and thanks!!! All good things to think about, and damn about my disappearing stubborn comment!! LOL
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-09 23:26
Oh booooo! How annoying! Well thanks for the thought anyway! :-)
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-09 23:13
Quote:
Dean fought in Purgatory and found a new sense of purpose. Sam met someone and found a new sense of life. Dean went back to being the hunter he was when we first met him. Sam went back to trying to make a safe and normal existence for himself, like when we first met him.

I think, what we’re seeing here and now are issues that the Winchester brothers had with each other since that wonderful day they came into our lives. The issues that they’ve never properly aired and that have had to take a back seat to the brothers being great big heroes.

What I see happening between Sam and Dean is confusion and hurt and anger and resentment amplified by years of confusion and hurt and anger and resentment.
Excellent summary of the guys' history. Yes, I do think we tend to view them through rosy glasses, ignoring the fact that these are hardened men and brothers with years of issues storming under the surface, years of supernatural forces trying to tear them apart and using them against each other and taking advantage of each one's flaws.

They're only human. And they're family. And everybody knows families are often dysfunctional and fight like nobody's business and say the most hurtful things. But at the end of the day, blood is blood. Family is family. Sam and Dean WILL work through these issues and I can't wait to watch how it all unfolds.

Thanks for a great review, SweetonDean. :)
Tiny
# Tiny 2012-12-09 23:31
Awesome review Amy! I was really looking forward to your views about the brothers. Great stuff!

I think Sam is angry with himself because he was caught off-guard by the text message. Like "dang! can't believe I fell for that!" Dean knows Sam and he read the Amelia situation very well. Now we know Sam would drop everything for her, we know how much the relationship means to him.

Sam is fragile in the mind, and I think he is just not happy with his life. He has tastes love for the first time in a long time (since Jess), if it wasn't Don, he could have stayed and walked away from hunting.

I totally get the character development, and this is an important journey for Sam. Because you are right, he left the family and went to Stanford. Hunting has never been the life he wanted. So this character development is a great call back to season one.

Where can Sam and Amelia go from here? I hope this won't drag on and on, they cannot be Carrie and Mr Big. I don't see Sam and Amelia having an affair behind Don's back etc.. I mean, Sammy won't do that! But yeah, I hope the reunion in the pub is a therapy session for Sam. If he needs to talk to someone right now other than Dean, it is Amelia.

For safety reason, Sam needs to get out of his fantasy and really think about the consequences. By being in a relationship with her, he could put her in danger. The monsters will find his weakness.

As for Dean and Sam, well... like Cas will say in the next episode "stow your crap!"

Tiny
xoxo
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-10 05:07
Quote:
For safety reason, Sam needs to get out of his fantasy and really think about the consequences. By being in a relationship with her, he could put her in danger. The monsters will find his weakness.
You know, this has bothered me from the beginning of the season Tiny.

The demons killed Jess. The djinn came for revenge on Dean. They could have endangered Lisa and Ben had Dean not got them out of the house and then Crowley did endanger Lisa and Ben. Crowley had Lisa taken to get what he wanted and had it not been for Cass' angelic healing, she'd be dead.

I have absolutely no problem with Sam wanting something more for himself, a different kind of life....he has every right...I get it. But what I don't understand is that he doesn't seem to be considering that he's Sam Winchester, he put Lucifer back in the cage, his name is on the lips of every demon in Hell, half the monsters on earth know who he is and to top it off...Crowley is still around doing his thing.

I'm sure there are plenty of evil sons of bitches, out in the dark, who still want Sam Winchester dead.

The best and quickest way to get to a Winchester is to get to the people they love...attack them where they're most vulnerable...th eir heart.

This is something both brothers have learnt through experience.

I see Amelia as a target and I worry that Sam hasn't seemed to consider this. Maybe he has, maybe we just haven't seen that, or maybe it's a symptom of the place he's at mentally, that he's not facing that, that he truly believes he can walk away clean, because he wants this life so bad.

It had to be what he was thinking when he was racing towards Amelia though...he had to be thinking that something had got her.

I don't understand how either brother can risk having an ongoing relationship, because I can't see how that doesn't put their loved one in peril. How could you not be forever looking over your shoulder? Forever worried something would come and snatch that person away?

It's devastating...i t's horrible...it's not fair...it breaks my heart for them both...but, it appears to be another tragic side effect of who they are and what they do. :cry:

Yeah... sad.

Thanks for your great comment Tiny :-)
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-10 07:24
Honestly, I think this idea is pretty depressing and I really hope they don’t go down that route. Not only does it suggest that Sam’s only option is to either (a) become a hermit or (b) just give it all up and hunt, but it throws the ideas of free will (which was the driving force of the show for years), and any possibly of a happy ending for Sam (unless of course, he changes his mind once again) out the window. This will leave us with a Sam that is no longer strong willed, hopeful or independent but one who is broken, empty and stuck; one that is to be pitied.

Quote:
The demons killed Jess. The djinn came for revenge on Dean. They could have endangered Lisa and Ben had Dean not got them out of the house and then Crowley did endanger Lisa and Ben. Crowley had Lisa taken to get what he wanted and had it not been for Cass' angelic healing, she'd be dead.
Yet, in the whole year that Sam was living with Amelia, nothing came near them. Could that be because he didn’t go near them?

Quote:
I have absolutely no problem with Sam wanting something more for himself, a different kind of life....he has every right...I get it. But what I don't understand is that he doesn't seem to be considering that he's Sam Winchester, he put Lucifer back in the cage, his name is on the lips of every demon in Hell, half the monsters on earth know who he is and to top it off...Crowley is still around doing his thing.
Why would Crowley or any demon want Sam back in the game? Why would they want to come within sixty miles of him?? Surely they, and definitely Crowley, would know that one way to get a Winchester back in the game would be to go after someone they love. And if a revenge driven, grief stricken Winchester is back in the game then every beastie out there is in trouble. So unless demons have a death wish, they’d be better served leaving the Winchesters loved ones alone, or maybe even give them round the clock protection!

Quote:
I'm sure there are plenty of evil sons of bitches, out in the dark, who still want Sam Winchester dead.

Yep, and the bulk of them would also know that to go after him (or any Winchester) would be to sign their own death warrant.

Quote:
The best and quickest way to get to a Winchester is to get to the people they love...attack them where they're most vulnerable...their heart.
In that case, wouldn’t Sam and Dean be most vulnerable when they are together?

Quote:
This is something both brothers have learnt through experience.
Their circumstances are different now. Neither brother is a vessel, neither brother is a target. Back in season 1-5, the brothers were fighting for self preservation because they were targets. Now, they are the ones who are doing the targeting. Therefore they are conceivably in more danger now than they were in seasons past.

Quote:
I see Amelia as a target and I worry that Sam hasn't seemed to consider this. Maybe he has, maybe we just haven't seen that, or maybe it's a symptom of the place he's at mentally, that he's not facing that, that he truly believes he can walk away clean, because he wants this life so bad.
Why can’t he? I mean, he’s done his time. He’s paid the price. He’s really of no use to any supernatural power any more. On two occasions, he’s managed to go for long periods of time without being affected by the hunt.

Quote:
It had to be what he was thinking when he was racing towards Amelia though...he had to be thinking that something had got her.
Sam’s life would have meant that yes, his first thought would be his mind would jump straight to the supernatural, but it could have been anything. Her house could have been broken into, she could have gotten news that her Dad had fallen ill. She could have fallen ill herself. It could have been a myriad of things. It doesn’t have to be something supernatural and that’s the mindset Sam needs to get out of.

Bar his time in college, Sam has probably rarely gotten calls to do with anything bar the supernatural so that would be how he’d react. However, with Amelia, someone wants him for something outside of the supernatural, outside of wanting something from him. They just want him, to talk to, to confide in, to have fun with or even to give him help. It’s not surprising that Sam does not know how to deal with that.

Quote:
I don't understand how either brother can risk having an ongoing relationship, because I can't see how that doesn't put their loved one in peril. How could you not be forever looking over your shoulder? Forever worried something would come and snatch that person away?
Then Sam’s only option is to toe to line, be who he was always told he was going to be, never talk to, or interact with, anyone bar Dean (who could also die), live a life that he hates which has brought him nothing more than fear, death, destruction and pain. Live a life where, odds are, he will see his brother die again. Live a life that ensures that he will gradually lose a piece of himself one bit at a time until he’s nothing more than an empty shell of a man. That, or just put a bullet in the head. I wonder which Sam would think would be the better option.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 07:54
I think, so far... Amelia has been pretty safe this whole year:

Sam meeting her was completely random (if it was...). So, there is no previous knowledge of her existence, place of residence or existence out there in the supernatural community.
Nobody could really connect her to Sam, unless of course, they connected THROUGH Sam.
And the only persons in a position to do this after S7 would have been Crowley and possibly the Angels.
If Sam´s time in hell and subsequent rebirth actually erased the markings on his ribs. If they´re still there, it´s only Crowley, because he was the only one, who knew where Sam was and could have followed him after the explosion of Roman Enterprises.

And the LAST thing, Crowley could have wanted, was to give Sam Winchester any reason to get back into the game, after he dropped out, thanks to Crowley´s carefully constructed words at the end of S7.

What makes sense though, is Crowley bringing Sam Winchester back into the game, when he is missing his prophet.
And how would he possibly do this?
Well, bring back Don, destroy that already a little shady construct, that is Sam/Amelia and give Sam a reason to get back on the road, but without giving him reason to hate on Crowley specifically.

Now, how a not-hunting Sam would go to find Kevin... is another question, but he would have been the only connection between the King of all Sales personal and his wayward prophet.

If that makes sense ^^

SHOULD Crowley know about Amelia though.
And should Sam prove to be enough of a nuisance...
well... Amelia sure is in danger NOW... as Dean has already proven, it´s a great way, to get Sam out of the game.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-10 07:59
The Djinn came after Dean and it had been 3 years since he'd killed their father. Dean did not go near them. Dean was out of hunting for a year and yet something still came for him. It's not out of the realm of possibility and I don't believe Sam, being the expert hunter he is, with the experience that he has, would think it was out of the realm of possibility either.

As Dean said, why do demons do anything? If they think a play is to their advantage, they'll play it.

I don't begrudge Sam's desire for another life, as I said and as I've said over and over this season, he has paid his dues, they've both paid their dues, but do I think that Sam can walk off into the sunset without a lingering thought that maybe the life he lead might try to find him and harm him or someone he loves? Well, no I don't. Because Sam is smarter than that. It may never happen, but how could that not be somewhere in the back of his mind?

Also for me, the assumption that Sam will only ever be miserable hunting and may become an empty shell of a man or put a bullet to his head...well, I don't know, I don't know that character, I don't know a Sam that would ever become that, because I think he's a lot stronger than that. I could never see this happening to Sam because I don't believe he'd allow that to happen to himself.

But beyond all of this and taking all our emotional arguments out of it...This is Supernatural, it's a show about 2 brothers. It's a show about 2 brothers who hunt the supernatural. Neither is going to walk away, whether we wish that for them or not. Maybe when the show ends, those people who want that outcome will get their wish. Who knows what the end game will be. But for now, I don't see that as an option, because that would be the end of this show. I for one don't want that...that's a depressing thought, because I love this show and I love Sam and Dean, both of them.

Sorry Tim, on this one I think we'll have to agree to disagree, we can't all be on the same page, which is perfectly fine because like I said in my review, it's what makes this all so very interesting.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 09:39
The Djinn came after Dean after Crowley and Cas had been stirring things up in their quest for Purgatory. They were capturing and torturing monsters to find the Alphas and my feeling was that for the first time the Alphas were starting to fight back. Other than that Dean lived for a year in peace. One of points made in season six was that for (at the first) unknown reasons, the monsters were behaving very differently. Without Cas looking for souls for the battle in heaven, Dean might have been left alone. Also, the Djinn didn't come after Lisa, they came after Dean and only hurt him. The had enough sense to realize if they were taking vengeance, they had to take DEAN out totally, not toy with his emotions and get him hunting again.

Jess was killed because the Azazel wanted Sam back hunting, honing himself to become Lucifer's vessel. Again, Sam seems to have had a year to himself. Bobby lived how many years without having a monster come look him up for revenge. The guy Meg killed in Sam's body had a home and a daughter he sent to college and he died as part of revenge on Sam, not revenge on him. Adam and his mother died because of the ghoul revenge and they had never been in the life. So not being a hunter has dangers too.

With the exception of season six, most monsters don't seem to have communities that will seek revenge. Vampires live in nests and they did seek revenge on Elkins, but most monsters seem relatively solitary and not revenge oriented. Eve said that until Cas and Crowley started meddling she was fine with the balance of life, monsters attacked people to survive, hunters killed a few of them off and the balance was pretty well there. Most monsters seem to have the same attitude. Other than Kate from Dead Man's Blood, I can't think of a monster left that would want to go after Sam or Dean now that they are not being messed with.

Life is inherently dangerous, but at some point you have to live it or go insane worrying about what can hurt you. Sam, decided to retire. He was safe for a year. Maybe it would have held, maybe not. Tens of thousands of people die in car accidents every year, yet we all keep driving cars. Police men arrest bad people every day who may want revenge, but they retire and don't worry about one of the bad guys coming back. Sam was leaving the monsters alone, they were leaving him alone. If anything, they knew that vengeance was what got Sam hunting again, it is what gets most hunters hunting, so they would not want to poke the dragon, wake up his need for vengeance.

Was Sam taking a risk leaving the life, probably, but really would most monsters take on the guy who recaged Lucifer and was part of killing the Mother of All? Some people are better left to live in peace.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-10 11:11
Quote:
Life is inherently dangerous, but at some point you have to live it or go insane worrying about what can hurt you.
I think this is the crux of it. The Winchesters (specifically Sam, but also Dean) have lost so many people that they are often terrified to get close to others again. And they blame themselves (mistakenly and tragically) for the evil that befalls the ones they love. But as percysowner alluded to, if I have a nice painting in my house, and a burgler breaks in to steal it, killing my significant other, that's on the burgler, not me. Saying that Sam shouldn't have a social life just because she might be killed by something wanting to hurt him is like blaming me for my significant other's death because I had a nice painting in my house. I'm sure it has crossed Sam's mind many times that being with Amelia could result in tragedy (how could it not?). But I'm also sure the need for that human contact, that connection, which is only human, became greater than that 'what-if' fear.

Quote:
The best and quickest way to get to a Winchester is to get to the people they love...attack them where they're most vulnerable...their heart.
If that's true (which I agree it is), if the guys stopped interacting with others, stopped engaging in loving relationships, then the demons and monsters win. Countless demons over the years have tried to twist and pick at the Winchester's psyche, trying to get them to blame themselves for the deaths of their loved ones - it's partly what drove Dean to make that demon deal in S2. And if they bought into that, it would only lead to isolation and a loss of humanity. When I think of the personal demons he probably had to overcome to do it, I think it shows great courage that Sam even allowed himself to get close to Amelia. Granted, it was also desperation - he needed something to hold to - but that IMO is a much healthier reaction than the isolation and loss of humanity Sam experienced in S3's "Mystery Spot" and S4's "I Know What You Did Last Summer."
Tim the Enchanter
# Tim the Enchanter 2012-12-10 11:02
Quote:
The Djinn came after Dean and it had been 3 years since he'd killed their father.....If they think a play is to their advantage, they'll play it.
And unfortunately, because of hunting, that is the way that it will be for the rest of their lives. Anyone they’ve come in contact with, had a personal relationship with, could be used against them at any time.

If in 30 years time (if they’re still alive), Dean gets a call from Ben or Jody Mills, or Sam gets a call from Amelia or Jessica’s parents, are they going to come running? Of course they are. As you said, the Djinn came for Dean years later. So as long as they’re still hunting, they’re saving/meeting more people so it could be argued that they’re just creating more targets. Is the irony of the situation that, in order to save people (especially those they are close to), they may need to get out of hunting?

Quote:
I don't begrudge Sam's desire for another life, as I said and as I've said over and over this season, he has paid his dues, they've both paid their dues, but do I think that Sam can walk off into the sunset without a lingering thought that maybe the life he lead might try to find him and harm him or someone he loves? Well, no I don't. Because Sam is smarter than that. It may never happen, but how could that not be somewhere in the back of his mind?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you begrudge him it, sweetondean. However, the show has once again established, rather emphatically this season, that hunting is not what Sam wants. So, if he’s not happy hunting then are the only choices to (a) get out of hunting (b) hunt and be miserable or (c) an about turn (again) where yes, now he’s happy hunting again?

Add to that, while Sam is smart, he is also hopeful. This is why both Sam and Dean hunt, because they hope to save people. (It’s certainly not sensible to do it!) Sam hoped to stop the final seal from breaking, that’s why he was ‘stupid’ and worked with Ruby. He said ‘Yes’ to Lucifer, a monumentally stupid thing to do, because he hoped it would end the Apocalypse. He (and now Dean) often lets monster go because he hopes that it is the right thing to do. All of these actions could have cost lives, but he chanced it anyway. I could see that hope dictating his decisions before his smarts.

Yes, the fear that something could happen would always be at the back of his mind. However, that fear will always be there, whether that be fear of a monster attack or a road accident or a rampaging bull (cos Amelia is a vet and those things are mad!) but I don’t think he could, or should, let that fear dictate him. He and Amelia could live a blissful life and at the age of 90 she could be pushed down a stairs by a poltergeist. She’d still have had 60 great years prior to that. Or that mad bull could get her on her next birthday.

Quote:
Also for me, the assumption that Sam will only ever be miserable hunting and may become an empty shell of a man or put a bullet to his head...well, I don't know, I don't know that character, I don't know a Sam that would ever become that, because I think he's a lot stronger than that. I could never see this happening to Sam because I don't believe he'd allow that to happen to himself.
Then another option would be to grow to like it. And so the cycle continues. It’s something he’s stuck with because he has no other option but to do it so he’d better get to liking it. I’d find that equally as depressing.

If Sam's existence, what he wants from life, causes or has the potential to cause, all this death, then why further it? His death could save lives, so why not do it? He’s done it before. (It could be argued that he’s done it twice.) I’m not being flippant about suicide here, I’m trying to think of a way that Sam (and Dean, because if Sam is miserable then I doubt Dean would be happy about it) could be happy while not compromising who the show has established they are.

Quote:
But beyond all of this and taking all our emotional arguments out of it...This is Supernatural, it's a show about 2 brothers. It's a show about 2 brothers who hunt the supernatural. Neither is going to walk away, whether we wish that for them or not. Maybe when the show ends, those people who want that outcome will get their wish. Who knows what the end game will be. But for now, I don't see that as an option, because that would be the end of this show.

It definitely isn’t an option at the moment (which is why the whole ‘I want to get out of hunting storyline’ as it stands at the moment is so redundant. We know the show will probably go on until season 10, so why bring in a storyline where the result is a foregone conclusion?). I'm not talking about at this moment but in the long term (and it’s possible that Carver is planning this as part of a three year arc and not just for Sam to have come around to the ‘right’ way of thinking quick sharp) I’d definitely like that to be a possibility for Sam. Surely the very definition of free will is to live life as you want to. The same applies to Dean. There’s nothing saying he can’t hunt if that’s what he wants. However, if Sam doesn’t want to hunt and Dean does then I’d rather see them apart, than together with one of them miserable.

Quote:
I for one don't want that...that's a depressing thought, because I love this show and I love Sam and Dean, both of them.
As do I, sweetondean. However, I also like me a happy ending!
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 11:15
Sam retiring...
perhaps acting as brains in the background, but not going out anymore...

God, I would love that.

Problem is, only thing I can see that actually happen, is, if Dean dies....

Dean would not really let him get out... not as long as he actually REALLY does some growing up and getting to terms with his abandonment issues.
And Sam in the end, will always be by Dean´s side... I don´t really think, Sam could quit hunting, while knowing his brother is out there without backup.
No matter how often he says, he can.

So, as long as there is a Dean, there will be Sam hunting...

*sniff*
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 13:01
But Fluffy, how does being in the background, being the 'new Bobby' help Sam?

So he doesn't go on hunts he stays home and reads books, he calls Dean with the information he needs (and buys a new cellphone after every call cause Dean has said something to piss him off or worry him and the last phone gets chucked against a wall).

Does Sam get to have a job? No because he might have to drop it at a moments notice to go do emergency research.

Does he get to go to college? No because you need time to study college stuff if you are going to go to college.

Does he get to have a relationship? hell no! Because they would end up being bait every other week.

Does he get arrested for credit card fraud and massmurder because he isn't roaming around the country any more? Yep.

So what would Sam get out of this? Nothing, except knowing exactly how much trouble Dean is in 24 hours a day without being able to back him up.

Anyone who thinks Dean can fight alone just with Benny is missing how often Dean ends up covered in blood and how hungry Benny gets. (heh - basically Dean covered in ketchup)

The way I see this is not that Sam would improve his life in any way, he would just lose the one part of the job which is actually fun, which is kicking evil SOB's in the ass and saving people.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 13:45
That' s why I said, it can only happen, if Dean was dead.
Which is horribly depressing...
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-10 15:58
Dean agreed and was satisfied with Sam not hunting in S5. Remember their conversation at the beginning of "The End"? Dean seemed surprised that Sam was going to help in episode 1 this year. When Sam says we should go find Kevin, Dean says "We?" Then in "Citizen Fang" when Dean says guys like us don't have homes and families and Benny says you have Sam, Dean looks like he wants to say, not really. Sam has always hunted for his own reasons, revenge, atonement, family. I have no problem with Sam not hunting and I think Dean would miss him but please stop with the Sam deserves a normal life and Dean makes him hunt. At 18 Sam had the gumption to go off to Stanford against John. Sam hunts for his own reasons and always has. Dean saying. he likes hunting with his brother is more like saying I'll miss you. I've never heard Dean say Sam had to hunt, just he likes it when they hunt together. There have also been episodes when Dean has wanted them to both quit, at least for awhile and Sam has said no. They both deserve a normal life but then there wouldn't be a show! Stop saying Dean forces Sam to hunt. It's a disservice to both characters. Sam is not that weak and Dean is not horrible and controlling because he prefers hunting with his brother. I'll say again, how is Dean able to make Sam hunt against his will? Not out of guilt because Sam got past that when he left for school. Sam is 30 yrs. old and capable of making his own decisions and has and does. Just as Dean does.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-10 16:16
Quote:
Sam is not that weak and Dean is not horrible and controlling because he prefers hunting with his brother. I'll say again, how is Dean able to make Sam hunt against his will? .... Sam is 30 yrs. old and capable of making his own decisions and has and does. Just as Dean does.
While I don't think there's anything wrong with saying the brothers deserve a normal life, and I don't know who your comments are directed at (you may want to tread carefully - I don't know of anyone who said Dean "forces" Sam to hunt), I can certainly agree with what I quoted above. You're right - Dean doesn't "make" or "force" or "let" Sam do or not do anything. They're both different people, independent thinkers, and very much grown-up.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-10 11:39
Quote:
However, the show has once again established, rather emphatically this season, that hunting is not what Sam wants. So, if he’s not happy hunting then are the only choices to (a) get out of hunting (b) hunt and be miserable or (c) an about turn (again) where yes, now he’s happy hunting again?

Add to that, while Sam is smart, he is also hopeful. This is why both Sam and Dean hunt, because they hope to save people.
I don't think Sam has to "be happy" hunting in order to hunt, or in order for the show to go on. In fact, I don't think Sam has ever been happy hunting. He's hunted because he hopes to save people yes, because he's thought it's the right thing to do, because of revenge, and because of his brother, but because he's liked it? Never.

I think the fact that Sam doesn't like hunting is and always has been a key attribute of his personality, and the various reason he chooses to hunt despite his strong dislike of it are part of what makes Sam such an interesting character.

So, hunt and be miserable it is. But hunting IS a miserable job. It really truly is. Yes, it does some good, but for the Winchesters there has been such great cost. I honestly would argue that Dean isn't even really "happy" hunting. And the reasons he enjoys it are correlated with how screwed up he is from a life spent hunting. I mean look at him, he's got "hunting" and "family" so closely intertwined that for Sam to suggest he doesn't want to hunt anymore, to Dean, is akin to saying he doesn't want to be part of the family anymore. Dean can't separate the two concepts. And we learned all the way back in S2 (and it was reinforced in S6) that Dean has always wanted a family. But that has been suppressed, suppressed, suppressed to where he feels like it's something he's not entitled to, like it's something he shouldn't even want. Hunting gives Dean purpose because it's all he knows and he takes it so personally, but it doesn't truly make him "happy."

Besides, happiness is a brief and fleeting emotion. There are moments of happiness each brother can have during a hunt, but being genuinely happy to hunt is something else entirely. I'd argue that the hunters who are genuinely happy to hunt have been severely messed up - i.e. Gordon, Martin, etc. And even THEN it's not real happiness - it's something sadistic and animalistic. A self-righteous bloodlust. I think we've seen Dean walk this line many times as well.

So what we have here, rather than two hunters who are either "miserable" or "happy" hunting, are two hunters who do a job because it's a job that needs doing, with a variety of complex, intertwining emotional factors acting as fuel to keep them moving forward.
E
# E 2012-12-11 20:27
Well, Garth seems pretty happy to be hunting... and he's just about the most well adjusted guy in the hunter community!
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-11 21:45
My day is not complete until I have come up with a daft new conspiracy theory about something so here it is:

I have been thinking about what you said about Garth being a happy hunter and how that crystallizes the problem I have with Garth.

Hunters are like the creatures they hunt in a way (if you look at all the hunters we have met in the show) they all follow specific basic rules about how they act – how/why they got into hunting. They got into hunting because a family member was killed, they are angry and looking for revenge. They have to abandon, neglect or live without, the rest of their family. Their family either dies or goes into the business (like the Campbells). They are strong or really good with weapons. As time goes on they get ruthless and they may eventually go mad if they don’t die first.

Sam and Dean may escape some of this because they ‘keep each other human’ but we don’t know that yet.

Don’t get me wrong Garth as a character is fine (apart from the d**n sock-puppet) and DJ Qualls is very funny but Garth as a hunter is IMPOSSIBLE. He doesn’t appear to have ANY good reason for having gotten into hunting. He hunts on his own, gets knocked out at the beginning of fights and doesn’t appear to be hugely weapon savvy, which he would need to balance out the fact that he is not built like a house. He has no ruthlessness, a stable homelife apparently, and it is now canon that he doesn’t have any grudges or resentments (Southern Comfort).

But what if Garth is a creature playing at being a hunter? Like Gabriel was playing at being the Trickster. That would mean that he has attributes that he can use to protect himself against injury in fights.

I have decided he could be Puck - a creature who will do jobs for you if he likes you, but will undo them just as fast if you upset him. He is also a lonely creature and likes to make friends.

Or not.

Perhaps I should go back to the shallow thread now …
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-10 04:01
Bravo, sweetondean! You may know from some of my comments that I'm right here with you in thinking that this is going to be the big, grand reunion of Sam and Dean, and they're making their way toward a greater understanding, respect and trust for each other ,probably in the angstiest way possible, but hey, we've already established that we're ok with that!
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 05:54
uhm.. wait a second... something just occured to me...

When Sam found Amelia and Don blissfully at home, watching TV.
Why didn´t he freak out, because of the text?

He was relieved, perhaps a little self ironic afterward in the car... but it never occured to him, that it is really strange.
Only, when he was sitting in the bar, he thought to check that message again...

Why didn´t it freak him out? Why didn´t he care?

Did he think, he perhaps had only imagined it?
But then... it must have happened before, for him to take it so easily at face value?

Uhm... is it just me, or is this weird?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 10:37
Sam has lived a life where so many, well okay ALL, of the people he has loved have died violently. Dean keeps coming back, of course, but he keeps dying too. I think Sam really was just relieved that nothing tragic had happened to Amelia. I know some posters believe that Sam is a jealous, selfish person, but I don't think so. I think he was happy that Amelia is alive and safe and happy. I think he probably thought he over reacted to her text and that "Help I need you", didn't mean "the demon is pinning me to the ceiling". At first I think Sam though Amelia did send the text and then forgot to tell him when her minor crisis was over. It took him a while to really think that Amelia WOULD have texted back if everything was fine. That's when he got suspicious and looked at the text more closely.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 10:53
Quote:
Sam has lived a life where so many, well okay ALL, of the people he has loved have died violently. Dean keeps coming back, of course, but he keeps dying too. I think Sam really was just relieved that nothing tragic had happened to Amelia. I know some posters believe that Sam is a jealous, selfish person, but I don't think so. I think he was happy that Amelia is alive and safe and happy. I think he probably thought he over reacted to her text and that "Help I need you", didn't mean "the demon is pinning me to the ceiling". At first I think Sam though Amelia did send the text and then forgot to tell him when her minor crisis was over. It took him a while to really think that Amelia WOULD have texted back if everything was fine. That's when he got suspicious and looked at the text more closely.
A possible reading of the scene, too.

Yes.

But Sam isn´t selfish, and I´ve never have seen him as such and frankly, it´s completely lost to me, how someone can even say this, about one of the two main characters on a show, they alegedly love...

But hey, to each their own...
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 11:04
Like I said, I don't think Sam is selfish, but the accusation keeps getting made, so yeah to each his own is right.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-10 20:22
I've seen many more comments describing Sam as being portrayed/ written as selfish then anyone actually saying that Sam is selfish! At least on this site. I'm not seeing the writing that way but to each their own.....

Well there has been a few this last week by one new poster. Otherwise really rare here.
Smithie
# Smithie 2012-12-10 07:39
What a wonderful review of Supernatural. I agree with you about the rose colored glasses, and don't we humans do that about our own lives as well. Maybe the boys do too. I love the angst between the brothers because when they finally get it back together, it's so sweet.

A lot of fans hate what Dean did with the phone call, but I agree with you. He did that out of love for Sam and loyalty to Benny. Both are very capable hunters and I think Dean was hard pressed to know who would come out alive if the two of them got into a death match. I love that he warned Benny not to underestimate his little brother, and that he warned Sam that he might not come out alive if he went up against Benny. He had no qualms about telling Martin he was a dead man...and he was. Bottom line--it would hurt like hell if Sam killed Benny, but it would devistate Dean if Benny killed Sam and Dean knows it. He would do anything to keep that from happening.
Benny is an awsome character, and Ty Olsen is fantastic, but I've had the feeling from the start that by the end of this season it will all go sour. Benny will get killed off somehow and it will be just the brothers again. Because every relationship Dean has ever had--or Sam, for that matter--goes to Hell in a hand basket. And their relationship with each other is the only one they can seem to put back togethe--ever.

I look forward to reading your reviews. I'll be rewatching season 8 during the Hellatus to make it through and will see you on the other side.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-10 11:47
So many of you like Benny so this will bother you but I want Benny to be playing Dean. Here's why, I think the only way Dean will ever forgive Sam is to walk in his shoes. He really needs to find out what it feels like to be played. This will give him a better understanding of how Sam feels and hopefully stop all the cutting remarks he's been making to Sam.
That is the best way to get the brothers back on equal footing, imo.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-10 12:20
I like Benny, and this doesn't bother me. :)

I think you have a very valid point here.

Not sure if it's the best route to take, but it would be interesting to see how such a scenario would play out.
Spoilerwolf
# Spoilerwolf 2012-12-10 22:03
Quote:
So many of you like Benny so this will bother you but I want Benny to be playing Dean. Here's why, I think the only way Dean will ever forgive Sam is to walk in his shoes. He really needs to find out what it feels like to be played. This will give him a better understanding of how Sam feels and hopefully stop all the cutting remarks he's been making to Sam.
That is the best way to get the brothers back on equal footing, imo.
Exactly. I feel there would be a more emotional (and more of a story twist) if Benny ends up double crossing Dean. If this season is really all about perception - so far Dean's perception (therefore the viewers perception) is that Benny is a stand up good monster.

But is that the right perception?

If we recall, the writers tried to do this before -with Ruby.

However, many didn't fall for the 'good demon' because of what she is/was.

Benny however, is more a shade of grey than a demon is.

I would feel far more satisfied if Benny plays double agent, than if he wanted a mercy killing ala Madison (sorry sweetondean!).

I think, as you said jo1027, having Dean 'walk in Sam's shoes' might bridge them closer together. Dean has long since held Sam's faults against him for years - for Dean to realize that he, too, can make a mistake by trusting someone he shouldn't have (with serious consequences) might open his eyes a little & have him relate a bit better to his brother.

This to me, would be a satisfying end to the Benny character.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-11 09:48
Quote:
Quote:
So many of you like Benny so this will bother you but I want Benny to be playing Dean. Here's why, I think the only way Dean will ever forgive Sam is to walk in his shoes. He really needs to find out what it feels like to be played. This will give him a better understanding of how Sam feels and hopefully stop all the cutting remarks he's been making to Sam.
That is the best way to get the brothers back on equal footing, imo.
Exactly. I feel there would be a more emotional (and more of a story twist) if Benny ends up double crossing Dean. If this season is really all about perception - so far Dean's perception (therefore the viewers perception) is that Benny is a stand up good monster.

But is that the right perception?

If we recall, the writers tried to do this before -with Ruby.

However, many didn't fall for the 'good demon' because of what she is/was.

Benny however, is more a shade of grey than a demon is.

I would feel far more satisfied if Benny plays double agent, than if he wanted a mercy killing ala Madison (sorry sweetondean!).

I think, as you said jo1027, having Dean 'walk in Sam's shoes' might bridge them closer together. Dean has long since held Sam's faults against him for years - for Dean to realize that he, too, can make a mistake by trusting someone he shouldn't have (with serious consequences) might open his eyes a little & have him relate a bit better to his brother.

This to me, would be a satisfying end to the Benny character.
Thanks. I'm also hoping it will cause Dean to really examine how he relates to Sam and hopefully talk about it to Sam.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-10 12:34
I just had to say one thing.Read your review and loved it.enjoyed reading it. :-)
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-11 05:39
Thank you! :-)
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-11 05:58
Hi all, I’ve been busy watching S8 from the beginning (only 1 episode a night unfortunately, since I can’t put my entire life on hold for a marathon re-watch until the 14th), and I have a few new thoughts regarding Benny and Amelia. I wasn’t entirely sure where to put this, or if anyone will actually read it (if you do, feel free to tell me what you think, where there might be holes, or just how full of crap I am!). I also realise that I may be repeating some of what has been said here, but bear with me because I wrote this before reading the comments, but I need to get it off my chest, so here goes:
In watching Blood Brother last night, it definitely appears that Benny is an all-round good guy, a vamp that gave up human blood for the love of a good woman, who came back to take revenge on the vamp who took her away and destroy the remnants of his previous life. But he’s also struggling with who he is and his place in the world now he’s topside again, so all this is not to say he might not fall off the wagon, or even ask for a mercy kill from Dean, because he misses the “purity” of Purgatory.
In some of my other comments, I’ve said that I want Dean to screw up where Benny is concerned, if only because he’s never made a seriously bad judgment call, and in some ways I wonder if that’s not part of the reason he can’t fully forgive Sam, because he’s never been in his shoes. I’m still wondering whether or not Benny is truly a stand-up guy, or if he has some kind of hidden agenda, but I’m thinking that Benny doesn’t necessarily have to be portrayed as super-evil to do the same thing. In going back to read the reviews and comments for Blood Brother someone mentioned that Benny seems to represent all Dean wants in a hunting partner, and possibly brother, too (kind of like the siren pretending to be that guy Nick, in S&V). The problem with this is Benny might embody what Dean wants, but is he what Dean needs? You know, you don’t always realise you need something until it’s gone. So what I’m thinking here is maybe Sam in ends up in some sort of mortal peril and Dean’s not there to watch his back because he’s off helping Benny. Yes, it basically means Dean kind of ends up choosing Benny over Sam, but it might also make him remember that there’s no way anyone can actually take Sam’s place in his world (and I truly believe no one can). This doesn’t mean, however, that Benny and Cas can’t be good friends and allies, but enough to stow this “better brother” crap, and for Dean to also remember that “he had my back” is not the only criteria for good brother. I hope this doesn’t come off as me being too harsh on Dean, but since I feel like this season is about bringing the brothers back together, I’m wondering if a situation like this would be an interesting way for them to gain some more understanding of each other. Not to mention, ideally this situation would have to play out with some honest conversation between them, which, if there’s one thing I’d like to see most on the show, that would be it. (Well, that and possibly some more shirtless scenes for the shallower side of the fandom, but I digress)
As for Amelia, we know she’s a real person, but that still doesn’t mean that part of her time with Sam wasn’t real. I’m starting to think though that the whole thing was real, so my thoughts have ended up turning toward what happened before Sam met her, since we’ve basically been shown nothing about that time. The next thought that struck me is that maybe someone did mess with Sam’s head. He seemed genuinely surprised that Dean wasn’t in Purgatory, so to me, the next conclusion might be Heaven, since I pretty much think (hope) the brothers have learned their lesson about deals and the like, so it makes sense Sam wouldn’t try to bring him back from there. But, maybe he was searching for Dean, either figured out he was in Purgatory or came close to it, and was working on and again, came close to finding a way to get him back, possibly without releasing all kinds of nasty ass stuff in the process, and [insert Crowley/the CIAngels/some powerful player we have yet to meet here] didn’t want Dean out, so they convinced him Dean was dead and in Heaven, and maybe even made him forget he was looking for him in the first place. With Sam convinced there was no way or need to “rescue” his brother from Heaven, that was when his world really imploded and he ran, hit the dog and met Amelia. That way, as far as “memory” serves Sam didn’t look for Dean, and didn’t want to admit it, so kept quiet when Dean asked. So how this plays out in real time (and yes, I’ve actually thought this out. Damn I think about this show too much) is similar to what happened in Unforgiven where they end up in a town Sam’s been in before and it all starts coming back. Now Sam’s trying to deal with these memories cropping up being in conflict with what he currently remembers, and just to tie it all in with the hallucinations last season (because, yes, I’m still bitter about how little we got to actually see of it), starts wondering if he can’t tell what’s reality anymore. Then Dean can be all awesome big brother like he was in HCW, and this, too can end up in some honest conversation and actual communication. :-*
Then again, this is just complete speculation on my part, and considering my track record of being wrong-and I kinda love that I’m always wrong with this show- it’s probably not turning out this way. I’m hoping what we actually get is way, way better, though.
Anyway, that’s enough of that, I’ll be heading over to the shallow pool now. ;-)
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-11 06:16
Hey Paintedwolf,

that´s some nice thoughts there and want to jump in real quick to put my own to that.

The Benny thing, in my head, has already gone down the drain, pretty much.
The way Martin looked, Benny fed on him, just like an alcoholic, that slipped up, that will be extremely hard to recover from.
It might just as well be, that Benny has gone off the deep end and HAS already disappointed Dean´s trust.

Though, I must admit, Dean does not really see him as someone, who is worth the time and effort, he would put into Sam in a similar situation. And HAS put into Sam in a similar situation.
Dean just lets him run and Benny basically said as much.
"With Andrea dead and you hunting again...."

Dean is not really supportive, and be it only on the phone, of Bennys struggles, to stay "clean".
He just leaves him alone with his urges.

The thought, that Sam gets into danger, because Dean is with Sam is a really interesting one... I´d like that.

As for Sam:
He thought Dean was dead. It wasn´t, that he didn´t care.
HE thought he was dead, and Crowley, despite knowing exactly where Dean was, cemented this idea, to get him out of the way.
"well, they weapons of god pack quite a punch, should come with a warning"
"You are well and truly on your own"

Sam though Dean was safe and sound in heaven, having fun with Bobby and Jo and Ash... and he was left on earth and the job had truly and absolutely taken EVERYTHING from him.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-11 07:51
To be honest, I'm not that sold on the idea of there being some supernatural interference on Sam's part myself, but when I thought of it, I figured it might be a good way to explain the not looking, since that seems to be the bane of S8 right now, in Dean's view and many of the fans.
I'm still not sure about Benny, and the whole thing seems very deliberately ambiguous. However it goes down though, either Benny goes off the deep end, or Dean just isn't there, I'm really kind of sold on the idea that Dean makes a huge mistake, trusting or choosing Benny over Sam, and that maybe it'll hit home more if Sam ends up in danger because of it.
Thanks for putting your thoughts in, and for getting to the end of that lengthy comment!
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 10:44
In some of my other comments, I’ve said that I want Dean to screw up where Benny is concerned, if only because he’s never made a seriously bad judgment call, and in some ways I wonder if that’s not part of the reason he can’t fully forgive Sam, because he’s never been in his shoes. I’m still wondering whether or not Benny is truly a stand-up guy, or if he has some kind of hidden agenda, but I’m thinking that Benny doesn’t necessarily have to be portrayed as super-evil to do the same thing. In going back to read the reviews and comments for Blood Brother someone mentioned that Benny seems to represent all Dean wants in a hunting partner, and possibly brother, too (kind of like the siren pretending to be that guy Nick, in S&V). The problem with this is Benny might embody what Dean wants, but is he what Dean needs? You know, you don’t always realise you need something until it’s gone. So what I’m thinking here is maybe Sam in ends up in some sort of mortal peril and Dean’s not there to watch his back because he’s off helping Benny. Yes, it basically means Dean kind of ends up choosing Benny over Sam, but it might also make him remember that there’s no way anyone can actually take Sam’s place in his world (and I truly believe no one can). This doesn’t mean, however, that Benny and Cas can’t be good friends and allies, but enough to stow this “better brother” crap, and for Dean to also remember that “he had my back” is not the only criteria for good brother. I hope this doesn’t come off as me being too harsh on Dean, but since I feel like this season is about bringing the brothers back together, I’m wondering if a situation like this would be an interesting way for them to gain some more understanding of each other. Not to mention, ideally this situation would have to play out with some honest conversation between them, which, if there’s one thing I’d like to see most on the show, that would be it. (Well, that and possibly some more shirtless scenes for the shallower side of the fandom, but I digress)
As for Amelia, we know she’s a real person, but that still doesn’t mean that part of her time with Sam wasn’t real. I’m starting to think though that the whole thing was real, so my thoughts have ended up turning toward what happened before Sam met her, since we’ve basically been shown nothing about that time. The next thought that struck me is that maybe someone did mess with Sam’s head. He seemed genuinely surprised that Dean wasn’t in Purgatory, so to me, the next conclusion might be Heaven, since I pretty much think (hope) the brothers have learned their lesson about deals and the like, so it makes sense Sam wouldn’t try to bring him back from there. But, maybe he was searching for Dean, either figured out he was in Purgatory or came close to it, and was working on and again, came close to finding a way to get him back, possibly without releasing all kinds of nasty ass stuff in the process, and [insert Crowley/the CIAngels/some powerful player we have yet to meet here] didn’t want Dean out, so they convinced him Dean was dead and in Heaven, and maybe even made him forget he was looking for him in the first place. With Sam convinced there was no way or need to “rescue” his brother from Heaven, that was when his world really imploded and he ran, hit the dog and met Amelia. That way, as far as “memory” serves Sam didn’t look for Dean, and didn’t want to admit it, so kept quiet when Dean asked. So how this plays out in real time (and yes, I’ve actually thought this out. Damn I think about this show too much) is similar to what happened in Unforgiven where they end up in a town Sam’s been in before and it all starts coming back. Now Sam’s trying to deal with these memories cropping up being in conflict with what he currently remembers, and just to tie it all in with the hallucinations last season (because, yes, I’m still bitter about how little we got to actually see of it), starts wondering if he can’t tell what’s reality anymore. Then Dean can be all awesome big brother like he was in HCW, and this, too can end up in some honest conversation and actual communication. :-*
Then again, this is just complete speculation on my part, and considering my track record of being wrong-and I kinda love that I’m always wrong with this show- it’s probably not turning out this way. I’m hoping what we actually get is way, way better, though.
Anyway, that’s enough of that, I’ll be heading over to the shallow pool now. ;-)
Quote:
Hi all, I’ve been busy watching S8 from the beginning (only 1 episode a night unfortunately, since I can’t put my entire life on hold for a marathon re-watch until the 14th), and I have a few new thoughts regarding Benny and Amelia. I wasn’t entirely sure where to put this, or if anyone will actually read it (if you do, feel free to tell me what you think, where there might be holes, or just how full of crap I am!). I also realise that I may be repeating some of what has been said here, but bear with me because I wrote this before reading the comments, but I need to get it off my chest, so here goes:
In watching Blood Brother last night, it definitely appears that Benny is an all-round good guy, a vamp that gave up human blood for the love of a good woman, who came back to take revenge on the vamp who took her away and destroy the remnants of his previous life. But he’s also struggling with who he is and his place in the world now he’s topside again, so all this is not to say he might not fall off the wagon, or even ask for a mercy kill from Dean, because he misses the “purity” of Purgatory.
In some of my other comments, I’ve said that I want Dean to screw up where Benny is concerned, if only because he’s never made a seriously bad judgment call, and in some ways I wonder if that’s not part of the reason he can’t fully forgive Sam, because he’s never been in his shoes. I’m still wondering whether or not Benny is truly a stand-up guy, or if he has some kind of hidden agenda, but I’m thinking that Benny doesn’t necessarily have to be portrayed as super-evil to do the same thing. In going back to read the reviews and comments for Blood Brother someone mentioned that Benny seems to represent all Dean wants in a hunting partner, and possibly brother, too (kind of like the siren pretending to be that guy Nick, in S&V). The problem with this is Benny might embody what Dean wants, but is he what Dean needs? You know, you don’t always realise you need something until it’s gone. So what I’m thinking here is maybe Sam in ends up in some sort of mortal peril and Dean’s not there to watch his back because he’s off helping Benny. Yes, it basically means Dean kind of ends up choosing Benny over Sam, but it might also make him remember that there’s no way anyone can actually take Sam’s place in his world (and I truly believe no one can). This doesn’t mean, however, that Benny and Cas can’t be good friends and allies, but enough to stow this “better brother” crap, and for Dean to also remember that “he had my back” is not the only criteria for good brother. I hope this doesn’t come off as me being too harsh on Dean, but since I feel like this season is about bringing the brothers back together, I’m wondering if a situation like this would be an interesting way for them to gain some more understanding of each other.
I would have Dean go off with his 'better brother' and have Dean get into trouble and the 'better brother' not have his back.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-11 10:58
You also brought up a good point about Dean perceiving Benny to be the brother he wants.

This is something we have seen from Dean before in the past with the siren who behaved like a 'perfect' brother doing what Dean said, when he said it.

Again in Swap Meat where NotSam is suddenly acting like the kind of brother Dean wants Sam to be drinkling bear, eating burgers, flirting with anything that moves, thinking Dean is cool hat what they do is cool.

Again in Cas to a certain extent I see Dean latching onto the 'little brother' neievity and being able to tell Cas what to do. Look at the scenes in Free To Be You and Me, Dean has fun with Cas something he doesnt have with Sam, going to a whore house and whatever.

Now with Benny he has someone who again he precieves to be totally dedicated to Dean, hasnt and wont let him down, essentially does what he's told to not let Dean down, someone he can go hunting with and enjoy it with.

Dean is constantly on the look out for a better brother and one by one they all let him down or actually6 do something that Dean perceieves to be a let down or personal slight to himself, most of the time their actions are nothing to do with Dean he just makes them about himself.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-12 02:08
Hi Hades, that's very true, nice pick up on the other ones I missed in Dean looking for a "better brother". This is kind of what I really, really, want in that Sam may not be all Dean wants in a brother and hunting partner, but he's still the best brother (at least, I think so), and I want Dean to remember this. Your idea about Dean getting into trouble because Benny doesn't have his back, is a good way to go about it, too.
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-12 07:30
I don't think Dean is looking for a "better brother" I think the only brother he wants is Sam and I think he loves Sam. In fact I don't think, because I don't doubt that for a second, but I believe you all already know that's how I feel.

I think Dean's a little like us actually and I think the scenes Hades pin-points so nicely illustrate this - I'd include the moment in Live Free and Twihard when Dean asked Sam when was the last time they had a beer together. How I see it is, Dean misses exactly what we miss, that closeness with Sam. I think how he is in those scenes is almost nostalgic.

Anyway, just my two cents. I know I'm out here swinging on my own on this one... and I might get a lambasting! ;-) But... yeah, there you go.... I felt I had to defend him on this one.
Bamboo24
# Bamboo24 2012-12-12 07:45
I'm inclined to agree, sweetondean. :)
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-12 08:32
That's all right, sweetondean, and I'm not attacking Dean, so no need to defend him (even though I so totally get it. Lord knows I do enough defending of my own :-) ). I do think he loves Sam and I do think that the only brother he wants is Sam, but I do feel that maybe his experiences with Benny have, I don't know, changed his perspective on that? I've mentioned that I just really, really want them to talk, rather than constantly remind each other of who did what when, etc, etc. I do feel though that sometimes when he looks at Sam he does see the ways in which Sam is not exactly the partner he wants. That's not to say that's a bad thing, because I think we've all been guilty of that at some stage. I don't believe anyone can ever be all that we want them to be. I'm just thinking that maybe both of them need to be reminded of all the reasons they have that deep, abiding love for each other in the first place, and arrive at a point where they again appreciate each other for who they are.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 08:52
The problem is... they lost something.

Not sure when... but most likely with soulless Sam, from my point of view.
They worked well together, they stand up for each other, but the simple pleasure of being in each others company, of sitting, drinking, talking, was lost.

No, they don´t need to fuck up the world for each other.
They don´t need to be unable to exist without each other, no matter how miserable.

But we want them "together" again. Relating to each other, turning to each other, honestly and OPENLY caring for each other.

It´s blatantly obvious to me, how much Sam cares about Dean, only from the look on his face, when he finds out, Dean is clearing out a vamps nest with someone Sam doesn´t know.

But when he and Dean are together, you get a good working relationship, but nothing else.

And when Dean turns to Sam, zeroing in on him in Citizen Fang, there is that connection, for a short moment, only to be smothered by everything else again.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-13 05:32
Yes, I think maybe they have, and believe me, I'm on the same page with everyone who wants that back. I do too. I just don't think that having them suddenly be A-OK will be anywhere near believable. Too much crap has been swept under the rug over the years and they're finally tripping over it. I just don't think they can be who they were without getting that stuff out in the open, which at the risk of moving into broken record territory, is what I really, really want to happen.
E
# E 2012-12-14 21:36
I don't thing its lost per se, just maybe misplaced. If JC is really clever and as good as I think he is (hope with fingers crossed) this will all lead to some awesome bro-moness of epic proportions. :lol:
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-12-11 11:22
Oh my, you had me at hello! Just, that was beautiful. I love that you went all the way back to the beginning to how the brothers are not always okay with each other. That's what family is, it's not perfect, and these two, while being physically perfect ;-) are not psychologically perfect.

Quote:
Get it out guys. Please, get it out and talk about it! You've been burying this stuff for years. It's time. Let's have that mature relationship Carver promises they're working towards. Let this be the first step to that.
I so agree with this. They have all this pent up rage and it needs to come out. I swear, men and their emotions! Yell at each other for Chuck's sake, you'll feel so much better afterwards. Arghhh!!! Okay, see, now I feel so much better.

I love the way you see this show. It's on my mind 24/7, and you people are the only ones that understand. Thanks for being here, this way I don't need to pay for therapy. :D
Valgal
# Valgal 2012-12-11 13:06
I have been thinking about the character of Martin and wondering what his purpose was in "Citizen Fang." Was he purely a throw away character who had to die to advance the conflict between Sam and Dean? Or is he a kind of foil for Sam? After all, Sam knew "Mostly Okay Martin" was newly released and still broken, on edge, and dangerous. I have read a lot of commentary on why Martin could have been his choice, but it makes me question Sam's compassion. Why would Sam have Martin track something that has so much more strength and experience than Martin does? It seems cruel and insensitive. Those are not traits I ever associate with Sam's character. And then, when he leaves Martin alone to ultimately learn that Dean has deceived him, Martin has died, perhaps needlessly and that Amelia is fine? How can that not lead to the swirl of unresolved angst occurring within Sam?

Sam has never been portrayed as inherently mean. If anything, it is his compassion that makes him so relatable. Dean has often relied upon Sam's empathy when they needed to approach folks that needed a more emotional response. While I like Benny's character and Benny is full of empathy... Benny is not Sam. I do not believe that Benny is suffering in a way that Sam is. And I wish that there would be a way for the PTB to show Sam's attempts to deal to both the audience and Dean.

Maybe I am concerned that not enough is being revealed, butI do wish the show let us know what happened between the time Sam was left alone and when he ran into the dog. Did Sam have a break down? He told Amelia that she saved him. But how? I am frustrated that we haven't been shown enough and that we are left speculating about Sam. Bobby said Sam has always been "one complicated person" and while Sam does the job, one wonders what it takes from Sam's soul to do the "job." I believe that Sam wants normal because he does not want to end up like Martin and fears the circumstances in his life will lead him to end up like Martin.

I am not sure how the PTB want Sam to grow this season. I'd sure like his growth not to come from more heartache, but from being able to draw upon those traits that make him the Sam that Dean, I believe does love- his empathy, hope, faith in others, his intellect and his willingness to do the job, whatever that takes.
RGNYC Rebecca
# RGNYC Rebecca 2012-12-11 13:44
I love waht you wrote, ValGal. I thought Sam and Dean were working together very well at the end of season 7--Sam was a hunter full time with no thought of anything else. It's only because he was left with no one and was lost and devistated and then was saved by the dog and Amelia that the thought of a normal life creeped in. I still wonder if the angels brought Don back so that Sam and Dean will work together to find the tablets. I love the discussion going on here! Thank you SweetonDean!!!
E
# E 2012-12-11 20:50
Sorry but I absolutely disagree with this part of your post:

Quote:
After all, Sam knew "Mostly Okay Martin" was newly released and still broken, on edge, and dangerous. I have read a lot of commentary on why Martin could have been his choice, but it makes me question Sam's compassion.
There is no evidence on the show what so ever that Sam "knew" that Martin was unstable. Martin got HIMSELF out of the hospital and was actively hunting again. He called Sam to see if he had anything and Sam put him on Benny. All Sam has is Martin's word on his mental health and Sam said Martin indicated that he was fine. Martin said as much to Dean as well. If Martin is lying about being fine, then that is on Martin, not Sam. Dean's friend Travis did essentially the same thing in Metamorphosis, showing a ruthlessness that Sam would never have gone with if it had been up to him, but Dean believed in Travis, and Travis said he was fine so they went with it. Travis used a civilian to get the monster and paid for it the same as Marin, but I don't see anyone blaming Dean for that.

Quote:
Why would Sam have Martin track something that has so much more strength and experience than Martin does? It seems cruel and insensitive.
Martin has been a hunter for years, longer than John, maybe even longer than Bobby. He was a vamp specialist. He knew what he was doing and lasted this long. He was armed and more than capable. We still don't know how Martin died, maybe Benny got him, maybe Elizabeth blindsided him, maybe the vamp nest had other recruits and launched and 11th hour rescue of Benny. The point is, we don't know, the show has kept the details from us intentionally.

Quote:
And then, when he leaves Martin alone to ultimately learn that Dean has deceived him, Martin has died, perhaps needlessly and that Amelia is fine? How can that not lead to the swirl of unresolved angst occurring within Sam?
Sam leaving Martin WAS unprofessional, but it was also understandable given the deplorable and cruel manipulation perpetrated on him by the one person who is supposed to unconditionally have his back. I imagine Sam IS beating himself up over Martin's death and that is something Dean should be feeling some guilt for himself; but the storyline showed us that Dean doesn't feel a bit guilty.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 07:15
Good point about Travis, lots of similarities between him and Martin and the whole situation really and yeah no one balmed Dean for that.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 21:34
Eventually I may try to make a well thought out post in the bitterness thread, but for now I'll just say that I think Martin, like almost all of the returning characters is having his previous characterizatio n warped to fit the needs of keeping the brothers fighting. Martin was a hunter sane enough to realize he needed help. Then he was a hunter wise enough to realize that some of the insanity at the institution wasn't normal insanity but supernaturally influenced. He was smart enough to know what he could and could not handle and to call in help when he needed it. Garth went from Bobby basically telling him he was too dumb to live to suddenly becoming the wise man of the hunting world. The guy who called Bobby on his FBI line when Bobby told him to call the FBI because it wasn't a supernatural case, now is giving hunters information on all sorts creatures. Sam didn't even look 10 seconds for Dean. Dean has PTSD for 30 seconds and moves on, which okay is the Supernatural pattern, but still. Dean also hides his friendship with Benny with no apparent reason until it causes problems with Sam. Cas actually seems to have returned to season four form, which is how I liked him and any anomalies with him are explained by Naomi's brainwashing.

To me they brought Martin in just to warp his character, make Sam look uncaring and then kill him off hoping we had some residual feeling for him that would make us sad he was dead. Instead they portrayed him as obsessed cruel hunter putting innocents in danger number 453. I'm certain it is in service of a story that Carver intends to get to at some point, but right now I'm having issues and Martin is symbolic of them.
Smithie
# Smithie 2012-12-11 16:05
I'm with you ValGal and RGNYC. I want so much to see what happened with Sam before he hit that dog and hooked up with Amelia. He said his world emploded. He said she saved his life. But he told Dean he didn't have any leads, he didn't have any help so he fixed up the Impala and he drove. He let Dean think he was no biggie for him, but I think it was. He said she saved his life. Was he suicidal? Would it help if Dean knew this?
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-11 16:12
It would help if he would ask...
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 04:13
It would definately help.

But it´s Sam.

Sam who said, he was dealing just fine, with losing Jess, when the guilt was literally eating him up inside.
Sam, who said, he had a perfectly fine handle on the Lucifer hallucinations and that they weren´t that bad.... and only from Leviathan!Sam did we hear how bad they were.
Sam, who said, not sleeping was not good, but he could deal... until he almost got himself KILLED.

Dean talks alot better about his problems, than Sam.
Sam hides it, until there is absolutely no other way.
Sam I think, has this problem, that he ´s afraid of saying anything about anything that is the tiniest bit out of the ordinary with him.

a) he doesn´t want to burden his brother
b) he hates being a freak, being different from Dean or
c) unreliable, a liability. God forbid, Dean thinks, Sam is a liability and not on top of his game.

Dean came back and had difficulties adjusting.
Would Sam REALLY tell him: Look man, I have problems? I´m not fine?

What he did instead, was ordering his brother a burger and grounding him in subtle, but important ways, until his brother found his footing again.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 07:09
I've been quite impressed with how Sam has been shown to be helping readjust to the world again, the little things have really helped Dean.

Now I feel like Sam needs help and support and I bellieve that may be coming in an upcoming episode, from my interpretation of spoilers I think Grandpa Winchester may be the one to help Sam. I also think maybe his meeting with Amelia in episode 10 may start helping Sam too. The thought of Henry Winchester being the one to get through to Sam and help him start to heal really excites me. I hope it happens.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 07:12
I´d love that...

And I thought, yes, Sam might be the one, whose "place in the family" Henry clears up.

The episode synopsis said something about Henry joining an anti demonic cult to protect his 7 year old SON.

Which would mean, the demons have been after John too

And there are several generations of special children out there... so, what if... John was one too?

And suddenly Sam isn´t the family freak anymore?
E
# E 2012-12-12 08:05
Now THAT would be exciting! I'd love for Sam to have a reason not to feel so isolated all the time.

And as much as I want Sam to progress and get help from Amelia, and GrandPapa Winchester, I MOST want Sam to get help from DEAN. Sam needs Dean more than anyone right now, and Dean just isn't capable or willing at the moment.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 07:11
does Dean seem lik he's remotely interested in listening? He seems to have made up his mind on the subject already.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 07:16
Quote:
does Dean seem lik he's remotely interested in listening? He seems to have made up his mind on the subject already.
I don´t think Dean even notices, something is off.
His abilities at empathy haven´t been his strongest skillset since Purgatory.
And the fact, that he´s self righteously pissed doesn´t help either ;)
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-12 09:11
Quote:
does Dean seem lik he's remotely interested in listening? He seems to have made up his mind on the subject already.

No, he sure doesn't.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-11 17:17
Hi everybody! First timer here!

First of all, sorry for my english, I´m from Spain and I hope you understand me.

I just wanna say that although this episode is good, I´m not enjoying it because the brotherly angst is killing me, and not in a good way.
They´ve fought before, sure, but never like this. Even when they fought over the demon blood/Ruby thing it was obvious that they cared for each other. They have hurt each other before, both of them, but they had their reasons and I could understand their motives.
Look, I´m a bi-bro fan and I´ve seen all seasons over and over again a ridiculous number of times (I own the DVDs), but I never thought one of the brothers would do something like what Sam did this season: not looking for Dean. Man, that broke my heart so bad that I literally cried. For me, it can´t be compared to nothing neither of them has done before, not the demon blood, not torturing in Hell, not the punches when they are angry. I can´t begin to understand the reason why Sam would do that.

Look, I don´t like Sam/Amelia storyline because in my opinion is boring as f*ck and because I think that this is how Sam WAS on season 1, but he has stated over and over through the years that he didn´t want that anymore. But ok, if the writers want to go down that road AGAIN, I can live with it. But man, not even TRYING to look for your brother, the person who loves you more than anything in the world , when there´s no real evidence that he´s dead is the lowest thing one of the brothers could ever do. When you love someone can´t just move on without knowing exactly what happened to him, specially Sam (or Dean) who has that unique relationship with his brother.
Both Sam and Dean have made really bad things in the past and I forgave them (it would be sooo boring if they were saints) but this, this is the worst thing I ever thought one of them would do. I mean, come on! He doesn´t even seem glad that his brother is alive! I can totally understand why Dean is so hurt, bucause I am too. I´ve NEVER been mad at Sam before, but if this is true, if the writers don´t give me a GOOD explanation why Sam didn´t look for Dean, I´m done with the show.

I´m SO pissed right know. I mean the greatest thing of Supernatural is that awesome brotherly bond they have, but the truth is that the bond is been missing for two years now and in this season the writers are pushing them even further apart. I´m HATING Sam right now and that´s a tragedy because I never thought I would. The only thing that keeps me watching is that maybe something big happened to Sam after Dean dissapeared, but I´m running out of hope too.

But thank you sweetondean, your article made me feel a little better, but I´m afraid that even if they make up and start showing love for each other again, if there´s no a satisfiying explanation of why Sam did such a horrible thing, the character will be ruined for me. And without liking Sam I won´t watch Supernatural anymore

My english is beyond awful, I know. Sorry!
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-12 02:21
Hi Emmanuel, welcome, and don't worry, your English is just fine. I understand completely your frustrations with the show, but, for my bit, I very much feel that there is more to Sam's story and they're deliberately keeping us in the dark for now. I think at the moment there are a lot of complex issues and emotions between Sam and Dean, and I firmly believe at this stage it's all in aid of repairing their bond.
Hopefully, they will flesh this all out in a satisfying way. We still have more than half a season, so the story's not done yet.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 03:44
Thank you PintedWolf! You made me feel better! :) I´ve been reading your comments for a while and I know a lot of people are frustrated just like me. And I know that there´s a lot of people how are really enjoying season 8 too. Maybe if you are right (please, I want you to be right, pleaaase) I could enjoy the show this season too, just like I enjoyed season 6 after I knew Sam had no soul. See? that was a satisfiying explanation for a extrange behaviour.
PaintedWolf
# PaintedWolf 2012-12-12 03:52
Glad I could help!
Smithie
# Smithie 2012-12-11 18:43
(Edited by Alice - Smithie, I usually don't like harsh replies that jump on someone for just giving their opinion, even if the opinion is somewhat against the grain. I especially don't like it when it's a first time poster where English is a second language. We want to let people have their say. It's very okay to disagree, just try to be a little nicer with your tone. I'm editing this reply just to tone it down a little, but I kept all your points).

Emmanuel that's a lot of Sam hate coming through. Did you have any sympathy for the fact that there was no one left to help Sam? As Crowley said, "you are well and truly on your own." Did you miss Sam saying that he had no clue and no leads and no idea where Dean was? When Sam told Amelia his world emploded? Or that she saved his life? Possibly he was suicidal after the loss of everybody...eve rybody.

There's a three month period missing between when Sam was the only one left to carry on...alone... and the time he hit the dog and met Amelia. I personally think Sam fell apart. Clung to Amelia like a life boat until he could get his head together. But even though he told her he wanted to stay with her, he left before the day was over and went straight to the last place he and Dean were living. White Fish, Montana. Try to see the whole picture.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 02:55
Hi Smithie! I respectfully disagree with some of your points: Sam said he had no one. Well, even if that´s true, since when Sam needs someone to make his job? Dean didn´t know how to get Sam´s soul out of the Cage, but he figured it out even if everybody, including supernatural beings told him that was impossible. And yes, Dean was pretty much on his own too. Sam is supposed to be smarter than Dean. My point is: they are ALWAYS clueless in the beggining, but they do research and the figure it out. If you don´t have contacts, you make new contacts. Look, I´m not mad at Sam for not rescueing Dean, I´m mad at I´m because as far as we know he didn´t even TRY. And believe me, I´m praying to be wrong about him, I want to think that there´s a good reason. You said you think he fell apart, well I need to SEE that.

You said he had no one, I say SO not true. Remember Sheriff Mills? The last time Sam met her she helped Sam after Dean disapeared in similar circumstances and they were succesful. What´s so different this time? Why not calling her? He had Garth, too. Remember all Bobby´s contacts Dean called even if he didn´t know them when Sam was in the crazy house? That´s REAL concern for your brother´s sake. Sam used to care for his brother too, I never doubted that... until season 8. Worst than that, he doesn´t even seem to be happy that his brother is back.

I want you to understand that I don´t want to be mad at Sam, but it´s hard to believe that he just gave up. Neither Sam nor Dean are perfect, pretty much they´re a mess, but this is just low. And yes IF Dean were the one who did this, I would say the same thing.
So please writers, tell us what happened right after Dean went missing and give me a good explanation so I can forgive Sam
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 03:33
Oh I almost forgot one thing:
Sam told Amelia his world imploded and I believe it´s true, but man, that sounded just like empty words, there wasn´t any real emotion behind it. I´m tired of short sentences and lame excuses from Sam´s part. The FB are such a waste cause they´re centered in Amelia and I don´t give a crap about her. I want to know Sam´s story. If Sam missed Dean so much, why not telling him? "Look dude, I missed you and I´m so happy you´re ok and I love you, but I don´t want to hunt anymore" Maybe Dean doesn´t like he wants out, but I´m sure he wouldn´t be so hurt and so pissed.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 06:50
we didnt exactly get any of that from Dean when Sam came back from hell did we, we got a line from Dean saying he looked for a way to get Sam out, researched and another line about him being miserable the whole year but we never actually saw any evidence of it, just took Dean on his word.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 06:58
alright, this must be the most unpopular idea in the whole universe, but if it worked with Dean, and not with Sam... perhaps it´s the actor?
E
# E 2012-12-12 08:13
just...... no.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 08:29
it´s the logical conclusion.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-12 11:20
It's not, because Dean did get the line filling us in on the fact that he tried to rescue Sam and failed. Sam got no such credit, which is why many of us are left still needing to see what really happened.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 11:46
Nope. Jared can't act what isn't written. Dean said he looked for Sam. Flashbacks were written showing Dean remembering Sam all the time. Jared has gotten nothing to PLAY. We have been told that at least once Jared tried to change a line that he felt was out of character, but that the writer came back and said he HAD to say it exactly the way it was written. Directors tell actors how to play certain scenes. I can not believe that the actor who has played possessed Sam and The End Samifer and Soulless!Sam and insane Sam and drug addicted Sam and regular Sam and who has made each Sam a distinguishable character has suddenly forgotten how to act.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 04:01
Quote:
Hi Smithie! I respectfully disagree with some of your points: Sam said he had no one. Well, even if that´s true, since when Sam needs someone to make his job? Dean didn´t know how to get Sam´s soul out of the Cage, but he figured it out even if everybody, including supernatural beings told him that was impossible. And yes, Dean was pretty much on his own too. Sam is supposed to be smarter than Dean. My point is: they are ALWAYS clueless in the beggining, but they do research and the figure it out. If you don´t have contacts, you make new contacts. Look, I´m not mad at Sam for not rescueing Dean, I´m mad at I´m because as far as we know he didn´t even TRY. And believe me, I´m praying to be wrong about him, I want to think that there´s a good reason. You said you think he fell apart, well I need to SEE that.

You said he had no one, I say SO not true. Remember Sheriff Mills? The last time Sam met her she helped Sam after Dean disapeared in similar circumstances and they were succesful. What´s so different this time? Why not calling her? He had Garth, too. Remember all Bobby´s contacts Dean called even if he didn´t know them when Sam was in the crazy house? That´s REAL concern for your brother´s sake. Sam used to care for his brother too, I never doubted that... until season 8. Worst than that, he doesn´t even seem to be happy that his brother is back.

I want you to understand that I don´t want to be mad at Sam, but it´s hard to believe that he just gave up. Neither Sam nor Dean are perfect, pretty much they´re a mess, but this is just low. And yes IF Dean were the one who did this, I would say the same thing.
So please writers, tell us what happened right after Dean went missing and give me a good explanation so I can forgive Sam
What I see alot in the comments, is what I think, is a blatant missunderstandi ng.

Everybody just assumes, that Sam should have known, that Dean wasn´t dead, while Carver explicitely stated in an interview, that this was the starting point.

Sam thought, Dean DIED.
Died and gone to heaven, safe, without pain, with all their friends and after Mystery Spot, the fuck up with Ruby, apocalypse and what not... this is the one thing, Sam wont do again... trying to get his brother back from Heaven.
Hell, yes. Purgatory, yes... though there is the thing with the Leviathan to consider. But Heaven, no!
Yes, this could have been alot clearer "I lost my brother" to everybody in the world means: My brother died.

It just doesn´t to the fans.
To the fans it means literally: I lost him.. I just need to find him.

There still is a chance, that at some point, we will hear Sam describe the aftermath.
And I think, it will happen.

We know, after they all vanished, and Crowley delivered his final blow, Sam rigged up the building as planned and blew it up.
Why he didn´t stay in the building and blew himself up as well, is a good question, but in my head I have this scene playing of him looking out the window, seeing his brothers beloved Impala, knowing, it would be destroyed as well... and just deciding, he needed to save baby.

And we WILL hear about it at some point.
We need to, and Dean needs to, I just hope, they´ll make it good.

I´m feeling a little queasy, because so much hinges on that one scene....

If that one scene works, everything up to that point will work.. if it doesn´t. If it turns out to be lackluster, then... the whole season wont work. :-|
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 04:28
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Smithie! I respectfully disagree with some of your points: Sam said he had no one. Well, even if that´s true, since when Sam needs someone to make his job? Dean didn´t know how to get Sam´s soul out of the Cage, but he figured it out even if everybody, including supernatural beings told him that was impossible. And yes, Dean was pretty much on his own too. Sam is supposed to be smarter than Dean. My point is: they are ALWAYS clueless in the beggining, but they do research and the figure it out. If you don´t have contacts, you make new contacts. Look, I´m not mad at Sam for not rescueing Dean, I´m mad at I´m because as far as we know he didn´t even TRY. And believe me, I´m praying to be wrong about him, I want to think that there´s a good reason. You said you think he fell apart, well I need to SEE that.

You said he had no one, I say SO not true. Remember Sheriff Mills? The last time Sam met her she helped Sam after Dean disapeared in similar circumstances and they were succesful. What´s so different this time? Why not calling her? He had Garth, too. Remember all Bobby´s contacts Dean called even if he didn´t know them when Sam was in the crazy house? That´s REAL concern for your brother´s sake. Sam used to care for his brother too, I never doubted that... until season 8. Worst than that, he doesn´t even seem to be happy that his brother is back.

I want you to understand that I don´t want to be mad at Sam, but it´s hard to believe that he just gave up. Neither Sam nor Dean are perfect, pretty much they´re a mess, but this is just low. And yes IF Dean were the one who did this, I would say the same thing.
So please writers, tell us what happened right after Dean went missing and give me a good explanation so I can forgive Sam
What I see alot in the comments, is what I think, is a blatant missunderstanding.

Everybody just assumes, that Sam should have known, that Dean wasn´t dead, while Carver explicitely stated in an interview, that this was the starting point.

Sam thought, Dean DIED.
Died and gone to heaven, safe, without pain, with all their friends and after Mystery Spot, the fuck up with Ruby, apocalypse and what not... this is the one thing, Sam wont do again... trying to get his brother back from Heaven.
Hell, yes. Purgatory, yes... though there is the thing with the Leviathan to consider. But Heaven, no!
Yes, this could have been alot clearer "I lost my brother" to everybody in the world means: My brother died.

It just doesn´t to the fans.
To the fans it means literally: I lost him.. I just need to find him.

There still is a chance, that at some point, we will hear Sam describe the aftermath.
And I think, it will happen.

We know, after they all vanished, and Crowley delivered his final blow, Sam rigged up the building as planned and blew it up.
Why he didn´t stay in the building and blew himself up as well, is a good question, but in my head I have this scene playing of him looking out the window, seeing his brothers beloved Impala, knowing, it would be destroyed as well... and just deciding, he needed to save baby.

And we WILL hear about it at some point.
We need to, and Dean needs to, I just hope, they´ll make it good.

I´m feeling a little queasy, because so much hinges on that one scene....

If that one scene works, everything up to that point will work.. if it doesn´t. If it turns out to be lackluster, then... the whole season wont work. :-|
Fluffy, did Jermy Carver say that? I didn´t know. I do remember Jared saying in an interview at Comic-Con that
Sam didn´t know what happened to Dean. Maybe he was dead, maybe he was fine eating a hamburger.
But even if Sam thought he was dead, why? Why he assumed he was dead? There was no corpse, no parts of his body in the ground, no blood. He just dissapeared just as he did in Time After Time. When someone you love goes missing, you don´t move on until you find real evidence that he´s dead. Maybe Sam didn´t know where to start and I don´t blame him if he didn´t know he was in Purgatory. But dead? I´m sorry but if Sam thought that, why JC is not giving us a good reason why Sam thought he was dead? Why not telling Dean clearly "I thougt you were dead"? If Carver wanted to do that, I´m sorry, this is just bad storytelling an not giving a believable story. And for the record, I hope I´m wrong about Jeremy too, because he was one of my favourite writes. But hey, Sera Gamble was as well..
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-12 04:51
many thanks to the superwiki´s transcripts:

SAM
Dude. You're... freakin' alive. [He walks a few steps away with his hands in his hair.] I mean, what the hell happened?


DEAN
Well, I guess standing too close to exploding Dick sends your ass straight to Purgatory.


SAM
You were in Purgatory? For the whole year?
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 05:32
many thanks to the superwiki´s transcripts:

SAM
Dude. You're... freakin' alive. [He walks a few steps away with his hands in his hair.] I mean, what the hell happened?


DEAN
Well, I guess standing too close to exploding Dick sends your ass straight to Purgatory.


SAM
You were in Purgatory? For the whole year?

Hey Fluffy! Yes, believe me, I know this conversation. I watched it over and over. But this doesn´t explain WHY Sam thougt he was dead. I mean, come on! Sam´s not stupid, he should know better! When someone just vanishes in the thin air doesn´t mean he´s dead. (See The Benders, Time After Time, All Hell breaks Loose.....). The only thing that could explain this is that maybe the CIA angels manipulated his memories and he actually saw Dean´s dead body. He´s surprised Dean is alive, but still doesn´t explain why he didn´t make sure.
Thank you Fluffy, I know you´re traying to give me some perspective and I´m trying to see your point but I think it´s not believable I think I gave you some good reasons. This conversation doesn´t really change anything...
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 06:43
why would Sam assume Dean was in Purgatory? Do humans go to Purgatory when they die according to canon? Is Dean a monster and we just didnt know it?

See if I were Sam I'd assume dead and gone to heaven because where else would Dean go? Had it been the other way round and Sam was cought up in the goo I would have believed he could have gone to Purgatory because of the demon blood and his questionable past or even hell for the same reasons. I probably would have ruled out heaven because Sam isnt Dean.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 10:28
As I said in other post, I don´t blame sam for not knowing Dean was in Purgatory. He couldn´t have known.What I said is that I don´t know WHY Sam thoght Dean was dead when there´s no real evidence: no blood, no corpse, not anything. Why is this time so different from the other times one of them has desapeared? Sam should know that vanishing doesn´t mean necessarily getting killed. So why he didn´t investigate it? What if his brother wasn´t in Purgatory and he needed help? Again, my problem is with Sam not trying, because when someone you love goes missing you don´t just give up. People spend years looking for their missing relatives. If he had a mental breakdown maybe i could understand. But I need something better than "my world imploded" in a casual tone. I need to see it.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 06:46
I dont think we will hear anything to contra Sam thinking Dean was dead or an explanation as to why he didnt look beyond what we already know. Jared has said it doesnt come up again (in any of the scripts so far).
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 07:01
so what if anyone else or even Sam alone figured out where Dean was what would they have been able to do about it? Should a deal have been made? should Sam have opened a door and let Dean and everything else out? should he have tried to get into Purgatory and risk being stuck there too?

Complaining that Sam didnt look is pointless when you realise that even if he did look he wouldnt have been able to do a damned thing to save Dean.

Personally I think the writers should have had Sam say 'I knew you were in Purgatory but I decided not to risk getting you out and potentially releasing a load of monsters on the world. Then I decided not to wollow in shit that is out of my control and get on with my life' That would have been basically a exact copy of Dean's season 6 story where he said he tried, couldnt get Sam out and got on with his life albeit with a heavy dose of survivors guilt, but then it has been hinted that Sam too may have carried his own burden of survivors guilt.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 09:59
Hades, if that were the case, if sam would have known that Dean was in Purgatory and he didn´t want to go down that road becuse it´s too risky, I´ll be perfectly ok with it. It´s reasoneable it it would make perfect sense with the whole "don´t sacrifice for one another anymore" thing. It would hurt as hell for him, but I can´t blame him if that was actually what he did. But even if that were true, I need to see him grieving for his brother, just as we saw Dean grieving when he was with Lisa, although Dean never stopped trying to put him out. But I´m afraid that´s not the explanation we are getting.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-12 11:04
but we didnt see Dean grieveing did we?
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-12 11:20
We saw Dean constantly flashing back to his life with Sam as he did things with Ben and Lisa. So we kind of did see him grieve in that way.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 11:50
Of course he did! How can you say that? Remember season 6 opening? Dean was having a nightmare and when he woke up his face was so sad... He told Bobby and Sam that he came to Lisa and Ben he was broken, he read hundreds of books trying to get him out, he drunk too much... And when he was telling this you could feel his emotion in his voice.I saw him broken at the end of season 5 when he meet Lisa after Sam jumped into the cage. He said he was fine, but when Lisa hugged him he started to cry.
´
Chuck said (and he was a prophet, the storyteller,he saw everything) that Dean wanted to die (because he was hurting so much) or to find a way to get his brother out of the Cage, but he went to Lisa because he promised Sam.

So yes, Dean grieved for Sam fiercely such as Sam grieved for Dean with the same intensity. I need to see that brotherly connection again. All I´m seeing is a Sam who seems to be upset because his brother is alive an a Dean who is acting like a jerk because he´s hurt for that. Not funny to me.

I´m sorry Hades,
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 11:56
That final line is out of place, (I´m sorry Hades)! I was going to write other thing, but I rephrased it in a better way and that line didn´t erase. Sorry!
Smithie
# Smithie 2012-12-12 05:28
The thing about Sam that people don't always get is subtlty. He keeps his pain to himself until it nearly kills him. Most specifically, he hides it from Dean. God forbid he should piss Dean off. Not all the fans get that, and it's not bad writing. It keeps up the interest when everything is not spelled out from the beginning. Angst makes for good drama. Sam said it in the pilot. They aren't exactly the Huxtibles.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 06:22
Smithie, I can see your point here. You´re right, Sam keeps his pain to himself. He´s subtle. Believe me I get that, but the problem is that Sam is a fictional character defined by the writers, and they have letting me down before, specially last season, but season 6 as well. Seasons 1-5 for me are perfect. We saw clues in season 7 when there was nothing, just inconsistent writing an my fear is that they are doing it all over again. IF everything has a purpose, if everything we see as subtle has a meaning, I would gladly shallow my words and you all will know how happy I am.
And by the way, I love drama. I love season 4 when the brothers were fighting, but I could see the brotherly bond brighting even then. But not anymore. Everything just seem off. Smithie, it´s ok if you disagree, but don´t assume I don´t get subtle. I´m saying that Sam´s storyline hasn´t really developed, we are as clueless about Sam´s motivations as we were in episode 8x01. It´s time to give some answers because a great part of the audience very frustrated. I´m not gonna say that´s bad writing, but it´s bad pacing in my humble opinion
Smithie
# Smithie 2012-12-12 07:29
I agree seasons 1-5 were the best. Season 5 was my favorite. Season six was difficult, but I actually liked the soulless Sam story line. Season seven had a some great episodes but it was the worst. I have enjoyed season 8 so far. I think it rocks, and all I am saying is that we are just getting started with the season. I think we need to give Sam's story time to develop. I wish You felt better about it, and i hope that the writers resolve the story in a way that works for you. BTW you have a great command of English.
Emmanuel
# Emmanuel 2012-12-12 09:44
Tank you Smithie! I´m studying english right now and I think chatting here is gonna be useful.
Season 5 was my favourite too! Great stuff! I´m glad you are enjoying season 8. I know I can be annoying sometimes because I´m frustrated with the show right now. But talking to you guys is part of my therapy!
prix68
# prix68 2012-12-12 11:21
I love season 8 but as I rewatch the episodes I have some real confusion about some of the OOC things I'm seeing with Sam and Dean. First Sam not looking for Dean. Sam says he fixed up the Impala and just drove. That had to take some time and occurred before he met Amelia and "found something". I still feel his first reaction would have been to figure out what had happened. Then Sam who has not been hunting,comes out of nowhere with the reverse spell. Sam says he understands about Dean needing Benny but not why Dean doesn't kill Benny as soon as they're topside. So, even though I 'm not good at speculating, I'm wondering if early on Sam discovered that there was a human portal out of purgatory but since humans don't go to purgatory he needed to send someone who would go there to deliver the message to Dean. I think this because Benny seems to be the only one in purgatory who has this info and because Dean and Benny know how to transport Benny's soul back and an incantation is also used. How do Dean and Benny gather this knowledge? Maybe Sam thought the plan had failed when Dean didn't return right away and then drove off assuming all was lost. Maybe as part of the deal, Sam himself , can't tell Dean about the deal but had assumed it wouldn't become a problem cause Dean would kill Benny as soon as they were topside. Maybe Benny took longer then needed to find the portal to gain Dean's loyalty and trust and keep the brothers at odds so they aren't as efficient hunting the tablets or so Dean doesn't kill him topside. Lots of holes here but you probably get the gist of where I'm going..because they say this season is about perception verses reality and a lot of things just seem a little off this season in how I expect the characters to act in certain situations. Too crazy?
st50
# st50 2012-12-12 11:50
Ya know, the more I follow these discussions, the more depressed I become.
See ya after hellatus, gang.
Peace.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-14 05:18
Curtesy to the person, that showed me, how to post pictures on the site...
I saw this and thought of that and... just had to add it.
Just so I don´t cry my eyes out all by myself!

That sums it up pretty perfectly:



curtesy of http://samndeansandwich.tumblr.com/page/2
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-15 10:31
Hey Sweatondean
I have noticed, now that I am watching carefully, little things in each ep that the writers script into the show. E.g. the surname Winchester; in 'It's a Terrible Life', Dean's surname is Smith and Sam's surname is Wesson, which together make up a name of a gun. May I pick your brains one more time and ask is there a website you can visit that have these little titbits listed?
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-15 14:33
Hey Kaz
Superwiki has trivia and minutiae for every episode and they have this kind of information as well as pop culture references and transcripts and well, everything! Do you visit there? It's a brilliant resource (run by an Aussie actually - she's awesome). If you want those kind of details on episodes that's your best bet, supernaturalwik i.com
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-16 00:10
Thank you so much Sweetondean. (nearly typed Sweatondean, but that would just be naughty). Have just had a peek at the website and I am telling you it's like you gave me Pie. :D

Big hug to all Americans at this time.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-16 12:58
Thank you kaz1
Pragmatic Dreamer
# Pragmatic Dreamer 2012-12-17 22:41
So... I'm only like 2 weeks late with this! Real life got very busy, as it does at this time of year!

Lovely review Sweetondean. Here's what I've been mulling over, since Citizen Fang aired.

Sam & Dean are men who have seen and experienced so so much over the last 8 years. Some experiences have been shared. But some have been separate. And let’s face it, even when you’re going through exactly the same situation as another person you don’t experience exactly the same thing. You view it through your own eyes, and through the prism of your own history. They each have their own distinct personality and so all they’ve been through the past 8 years has shaped and moulded them differently. Add in this past year of horrific forced separation, when neither knew what was happening to the other, plus the fact they are NEVER completely honest with each other and you have a recipe for misunderstanding.

And for the record, even after all these years and all they’ve been through, I believe the reason that they’re never completely open or truthful with each other is that they still worry about losing the other’s love and approval. It’s like a child not wanting to admit to doing something naughty in case Mom & Dad get mad an don’t love them anymore. Dean can’t admit he voluntarily carried Benny’s soul out of Purgatory because that is such unDean behaviour. And Sam can’t admit how devastated he was by Dean’s death because that might appear weak.

As well I feel like we’re finally seeing them mature from “boys” to men. They are trying so hard to figure out their identities as individuals, and as a pair. And just as importantly, they’re trying to figure who they are as “hunters” – two guys who have been blessed and cursed by seeing what really goes bump in the night. I seem them struggling with the dilemma of knowledge – once you know something evil is out there, are you duty-bound to act?

I think Sam is reacting to Benny out of jealously, out of misinformation (I think we viewers know more about Benny than he does) and out of fear. He saw what happened when he trusted Ruby. Although, I find some of his actions really unSamlike. He is so eager? to gank Benny. Tailing Benny was probably a good idea. (Choosing Martin not so much) But it’s like he wants to prove Dean wrong so that he can say “See I told ya so. I learned my lesson from Ruby. Now do you understand what happened there? Now do you forgive me?” I also think Sam is incredibly confused by the fact that his brother, who used to be so black & white on the monster issue, is now openly living in a world of grey. I think he feels like he has to be the rational one (a la Dean being the moral compass with Soulless Sam.)

Benny is breaking my heart. I teared up when he put his head on the counter. He is such a reflection of BOTH brothers. His admission that Elizabeth was his granddaughter, and that it was family!! keeping him on the straight & narrow was so Dean. As was his desire to not get the people he cares about, involved in his problems, in case they get hurt. So Dean. But, feeling like he constantly has to fight the monster within, and that everyone is always judging him is so Sam (especially once he learned about his demon blood and Lucifer destiny.) He’s a tragic character.

I really, really don’t want them to have Benny betray Dean (and by extension Sam). It would be too much of a repeat of the Ruby storyline. But I do think the angels have been messing with both Sam and Dean’s memories or experiences of what really happened during their year apart. And I think somehow Benny is connected to all that. After all “they” told him where the Purgatory portal would be, but who is “they”?

I have a couple of scenarios for what’s going to happen to Benny. Dean is going to get into lethal trouble of some kind, and Benny will come to help him (maybe even at Sam’s request) . He will sacrifice himself to save Dean. Or, he will do something that forces Dean, or Sam to kill him. Or, he will be like Madison the werewolf and ask Dean to kill him. I think Benny is finding it increasingly difficult to live in this world , in this reality and I think he will want to go back to Purgatory rather than go back to killing people. He hates the monster side of him, and wants it destroyed, even if that means his own death.

Questions I have:

1. So was Sam the shadowy figure outside Amelia’s house in Episode 1 or was that Don?

2. Did Sam leave Amelia twice? In this episode, he was packing his knapsack during the daytime. But in episode ! we see him leaving at night? Strange.

3. Why are there so many lines of dialogue being repeated? Sam tells Martin “I pulled you into this and I can pull you out!” echoes Castiel’s comment to Dean in Seaon 4 “I pulled you of out hell and I can throw you back in” Dean telling Sam he has the whole mess of Purgatory playing in his head is just like Dean telling Sam he has Hell playing in his head, in Season 4! There are lots of others but I can’t think of them. Is this evidence of angel mind manipulation (lazy writing?) They just jump out at me.

I didn’t think Dean’s line about “all my relationships have gone to crap” included Sam. It’s a big exaggeration for one thing. His relationship with Bobby never went to crap. Bobby died! I’ve said similar things to my husband (probably after a bad day at work and with lots of PMS going on) “I have no friends. Eveyone hates me. I’m ugly”. And he’ll look at me and say “thanks. I guess I’m not your friend.” But I’m not including him in that comment. In my brain and heart, he stands apart from it. He’s my Stone #1 (in SPN speak.) I think Dean might be the same way. And I think when he says his relationships have gone to crap, he’s meaning it’s his fault. He’s screwed up. But I totally get why Sam would be hurt by that. He feels like Dean still doesn’t trust him. And that he hasn’t forgiven him, based on Dean’s recent outburst.

I have a bit of a different perspective on forgiveness. I believe you can forgive, but sometimes forgetting the pain of that emotionally injure is the tough part. Often because the transgression still has ramifications on your present life. I think Dean’s venom under the venegeful spirit spell was about expressing his hurt over those instances. Sam’s perception is, quite understandably that Dean has not forgiven him.

But I think Dean has forgiven Saim, and does trust him. But he doesn’t completely understand him. I don’t know if he ever will. Do we every completely understand another person? (Go back to paragraph 3.. Lather, rinse, repeat!!)

Sorry for the lengthy thinky-thought.

Pragmatic Dreamer :-*
sweetondean
# sweetondean 2012-12-18 14:31
Hi Pragmatic Dreamer, thanks for the great comment, I always love reading your thinky-thoughts!

I agree with you, I think that the reason Sam and Dean don't tell each other things is because they know the reaction of the other so well and they don't want to disappoint their brother, or have their brother feel less love or respect, or God forbid, make them angry! I also think there's an element of knowing what they're doing is questionable and not wanting their brother, the person who's opinion matters the most, to point that out. I think the only person Sam and Dean want approval from is each other, no one else's opinion is of any deep importance.

I also agree that Dean did not specifically mean to include Sam in the all my relationships line. But it came out like that. Like many of us who say things when riled up, it came out like that. I think you can see by his face, when Sam comes back with his retort, that Dean didn't mean it to be taken as Sam he was talking about. This by the way, is an unpopular opinion! As most people seem to think Dean was out to hurt Sam with that statement and it was another instance of his being negligent of Sam's feelings, but I don't agree. I don't think he meant it to encompass Sam, I don't think he was being wilfully hurtful, but I 100% understand, with everything that has happened lately, that's the way Sam would hear it.

I also agree with you that Dean does trust, forgive and believe in his brother. If there was a conversation around that, that didn't include anger, I'm sure that's what would be revealed. But we say things we know will sting the most when we're angry at those we love the most. I'm absolutely on board when you say, you can forgive but still remember the injury. I don't think remembering the hurt means you don't forgive them for perpetrating the hurt. But the intellectual and the emotional are hard to separate and as you say, I totally get why Sam would assume and believe Dean doesn't forgive him or trust him, with that recent angry outburst and all. I think that feeling in Sam probably also comes from a level of guilt that he can't let go of himself. Blame is a two way street and we usually lay the most blame at our own feet.

This season has definitely seen the brothers moving from being boys to men. We're seeing them dealing with their lot in life head-on and that's where I think this is all going, to have them deal with it and bring them out the other-side. I feel like Carver's plan is to clear some of the emotional debris that has piled up and buried Sam and Dean and their relationship.

It's challenging when characters you're vested in, act in a way that you, as a fan, find confusing or disappointing, but this is something I'm greatly enjoying this season, that challenge. Because it's worth putting in the effort to understand, forgive and accept when you love people, like we love these characters.

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, it gave me a chance to weigh in a little in some areas I've not touched on, but have wanted to.

Oh and, I so hope it's not simply Don watching Sam...because.. .well, that's not very interesting...u nless his eyes turn black or something! :-)
E
# E 2012-12-18 19:11
Hi Pragmatic Dreamer. I am sorry to say that I don't agree with you on the following section of your post:

Quote:
I didn’t think Dean’s line about “all my relationships have gone to crap” included Sam. It’s a big exaggeration for one thing. His relationship with Bobby never went to crap. Bobby died! I’ve said similar things to my husband (probably after a bad day at work and with lots of PMS going on) “I have no friends. Eveyone hates me. I’m ugly”. And he’ll look at me and say “thanks. I guess I’m not your friend.” But I’m not including him in that comment. In my brain and heart, he stands apart from it. He’s my Stone #1 (in SPN speak.) I think Dean might be the same way. And I think when he says his relationships have gone to crap, he’s meaning it’s his fault.
I don't see it that way. Dean said the line to Sam about Sam, which is why Sam responded in the way that he did. It was a direct hit IMO. If Dean wasn't meaning to put Sam down by this statement, then why say it at all? I think it was Dean venting his frustrations as he did in Southern Comfort, but without the added impetus of the cursed penny; his comments at that time were crystal clear, "Benny has been a better brother to me in the past year than you have EVER been." IMO, the conversation in Citizen Fang was a reiteration of that, "Every relationship I have ever had has gone to crap at some point, but the one thing I can say about Benny is that he has NEVER let me down." The "unlike you" afterthought is just lingering in the air for all to hear, and Sam did hear it and responded to it as well. Dean may be sorry in retrospect, but he has said the words and can't take them back.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-19 00:59
I strongly agree with E. Dean has been sniping at Sam episode after episode. I'd say Dean knows better underneath it all, but he's so consumed with his own issues right now that he feels that hitting out at Sam is fair game. Unlike an in-the-moment line such as "Gee, Dean, does it make you feel better every time you say it?" when Sam responds with weary sarcasm that it must be nice to have finally found someone he can trust after all these years, it momentarily breaks through Dean's resentment and causes him to miss a beat as he considers the bigger picture of their relationship.

Quote:
And for the record, even after all these years and all they’ve been through, I believe the reason that they’re never completely open or truthful with each other is that they still worry about losing the other’s love and approval. It’s like a child not wanting to admit to doing something naughty in case Mom & Dad get mad an don’t love them anymore. Dean can’t admit he voluntarily carried Benny’s soul out of Purgatory because that is such unDean behaviour. And Sam can’t admit how devastated he was by Dean’s death because that might appear weak.
I do agree in the main with your observation here, that each is afraid  of being open with the other because they're afraid of losing the other's love and approval, but I don't think Dean is afraid of admitting that he carried Benny's soul out of Purgatory. The fact that Benny is topside is obvious, and the manner of conveyance is just a detail. I think Dean is holding back because he's afraid that if he confronts Sam, that he'll find out that Sam was indeed relieved to be rid of him. His bond with Benny is something that he can guard zealously as a defense against the idea that he just isn't worthwhile enough to anyone. But his very attempts to provoke Sam at the same time as he pushes him away suggest that he does want to elicit an emotional reaction from Sam that would prove that he still matters to him. And this kind of nonsense is why I don't see them becoming men instead of boys.

Quote:
I think Sam is reacting to Benny out of jealously, out of misinformation (I think we viewers know more about Benny than he does) and out of fear. He saw what happened when he trusted Ruby. Although, I find some of his actions really unSamlike. He is so eager? to gank Benny. Tailing Benny was probably a good idea. (Choosing Martin not so much) But it’s like he wants to prove Dean wrong so that he can say “See I told ya so. I learned my lesson from Ruby. Now do you understand what happened there? Now do you forgive me?”
I don't really see that either. Dean is so defensive about Benny and so eager to use him as a stick to beat Sam with that it has to appear to Sam that Dean's attachment to Benny is irrational. He doesn't want to talk about him or let Sam know him, which suggests that there is something to hide, and Dean knows it. This triggers the parallel with Ruby in Sam's mind, as the text reveals when he says, "You know how these things turn out for us." If he were merely jealous and couldn't wait to off Benny, he wouldn't hold back and give his brother time to investigate.

Quote:
I really, really don’t want them to have Benny betray Dean (and by extension Sam). It would be too much of a repeat of the Ruby storyline.
I do. Not in the sense that Benny is a bad guy who just played Dean, but so that Dean is confronted by the fact that he can't expect anyone to be completely and totally aligned with his interests. No one is going to be perfect for him.

Quote:
But I think Dean has forgiven Saim, and does trust him. 
I believed Dean when he said at Rufus' gravesite that he forgave everyone. However, the writers have revived the issue, and I can't believe that Dean would pick at Sam the way he is now if he'd forgiven him and trusted him.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-19 07:18
Quote:
I do. Not in the sense that Benny is a bad guy who just played Dean, but so that Dean is confronted by the fact that he can't expect anyone to be completely and totally aligned with his interests. No one is going to be perfect for him.
I agree but just because that I don't want Sam to be wrong now after everything
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-19 17:01
I will admit, this is my main reason for wanting Benny to be untrustworthy. Yes, I have heard the complaints that it would be too repetitive of the Ruby storyline, but Sam is always wrong about monsters and Dean is always right is even more repetitive.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-19 11:05
Quote:

I don't really see that either. Dean is so defensive about Benny and so eager to use him as a stick to beat Sam with that it has to appear to Sam that Dean's attachment to Benny is irrational. He doesn't want to talk about him or let Sam know him, which suggests that there is something to hide, and Dean knows it. This triggers the parallel with Ruby in Sam's mind, as the text reveals when he says, "You know how these things turn out for us." If he were merely jealous and couldn't wait to off Benny, he wouldn't hold back and give his brother time to investigate.
You put this really clearly. I totally agree with it, but haven't been able to express it very well!

I also don't feel that Sam is 'jealous'. He may be a lot of other things not all of them positive - like resentful and angry - but jealousy I don't think is the right word. But that is just my opinion, it is difficult to back it up...
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-19 11:18
Regarding Dean using Benny against Sam:

Actually, I think in Citizen Fang Dean didn't mean to say what he said about his relationships. The expression on his face after Sam's reaction was either 'I shouldn't have said that just now, it weakens my argument' or 'wow I didn't know that was how I felt'.

However the fact that he didn't try to correct it (which would have been much better for his argument) means that at that moment he did believe it enough not to take it back.

But I don't think he initially said it deliberately. Also I believe the qualifier 'at some point' was important, and Sam missed it (with good reason).
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-19 12:46
I'd say that "at some point" makes it a deliberate slap at Sam. After all the boys had a good relationship seasons 1-3. As for not knowing he felt that way, well if he didn't he's been dinging Sam all season for no reason.

Look, I know the writers show Dean's feelings and not Sam's which makes it very easy to say that Sam is a bad person who does nothing right and could not possibly make decisions for logical, rational reasons instead of jealousy or anger. It also makes it easy to dismiss when Dean does hurtful, destructive things TO Sam, because jeeze Dean is hurt, Dean didn't mean to hurt Sam; Dean didn't know he was feeling that way. But we have had an entire season of Dean reminding Sam that he has let Dean down. So I think it is disingenuous to try to excuse him with he didn't KNOW how he felt, or that he didn't say it deliberately.
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-19 21:19
Quote:
But his very attempts to provoke Sam at the same time as he pushes him away suggest that he does want to elicit an emotional reaction from Sam that would prove that he still matters to him. And this kind of nonsense is why I don't see them becoming men instead of boys.
So true! Supposedly they are leading the boys towards maturity, but that will never happen while Dean clings to these "abandonment" issues.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-19 16:51
Quote:
But I think Dean has forgiven Saim, and does trust him. But he doesn’t completely understand him. I don’t know if he ever will. Do we every completely understand another person?
I think that DEAN believed he had forgiven Sam, especially at Rufus's graveside and when Sam jumped into the Cage. But people are very good at deceiving themselves, especially at emotional moments. But right now in canon, Dean has not forgiven Sam. It's not just that he hasn't forgotten, he is still holding onto the anger of the past betrayals. I do agree that Dean does not understand Sam as much as he thinks he does and Sam does not understand Dean as much as he would like to. People do rarely completely understand each other, because they are different from each other and there will be some point at which they just don't come together.

I'm not certain Dean has really trusted Sam much at all. Season one, he saw Sam as rusty and as being about to betray him by Sam's decision to return to his life once they found Dad and the thing that killed Mon and Jess. Season 2 Dean obviously didn't trust Sam enough to tell him about Johns last words. Dean, like John, never considered for one minute that Sam could save himself with enough information. Season three Dean actively worked against Sam trying to save Dean and really never seemed to believe that Sam could save him. In season four Sam was legitimately untrustworthy at times, but Dean could not even acknowledge that Sam using his powers was saving people while at the same time hunting things. He labeled Sam as something he would hunt, if he didn't know Sam better. That actually is telling Sam that Sam is untrustworthy and only Dean's decisions are keeping Sam alive, not that Sam can be trusted for who he is. Season five, Dean spent most of the time not trusting Sam, even telling him in PONR that Sam was going to inevitably break and say yes to Lucifer. Season six, Dean understandably lost trust in Sam when Sam was soulless and could not regain total trust after Sam was resouled out of fear of the wall falling. Season seven Dean did not trust Sam due to the hallucinating. This is in contrast with Sam who trusted Dean even though Dean was drinking heavily and going through a deep depression. Sam's actions showed him as being more stable than Dean, but still Dean did not trust him. And now we are in season eight where all of Dean's earlier issues have been compounded by his trip to Purgatory, Sam's seemingly not looking for Dean and Sam's express desire to stop hunting. Dean has rarely trusted Sam 100% and I think that he does not trust him at all now. I'm mostly baffled by the fact that Dean wants Sam hunting with him, since he sees Sam as SO deficient.

Quote:
1. So was Sam the shadowy figure outside Amelia’s house in Episode 1 or was that Don?
Considering the shadowing figure outside Amelia's watched Sam leave, I doubt it was Sam, unless we get time travel again. It could have been an angel, it could have been Benny, it could have been Dean, it could have been Don but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Sam.
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-19 21:23
Wow, Percysowner, you have laid out all the succession of trust issues over the years really clearly. Do you mind if I quote you? Because this needs to be shared.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-19 21:29
Feel free to quote me. I'm honored.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-20 01:29
Quote:
I do agree that Dean does not understand Sam as much as he thinks he does and Sam does not understand Dean as much as he would like to.
Perfectly stated.
shadowhund
# shadowhund 2012-12-20 01:40
Percysowner
Quote:
I'm mostly baffled by the fact that Dean wants Sam hunting with him, since he sees Sam as SO deficient.
This is the real question after your excellent statement! Why does Dean even want Sam in the car?

The figure could have been Dean watching Sam, would fit with the trust issues and all. Also didn't he take Amelias phone?
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-20 07:23
You could also go the reverse route and wonder why Sam's there. He clearly doesn't want to be, considering he doesn't even think what they do has meaning anymore. He has been so reserved with Dean it's hard to tell what he thinks of him at all. After this episode, it seems as if he climbed into the impala because he felt guilty about Kevin and because he didn't ave anywhere else to go, but you do wonder why if he dislikes it all so much why he's sticking it out.

To me, the answer to both questions is because no matter what they're going through, Sam and Dean both deep down acknowledge their bond and how they've, through the course of the series, always been better together than apart, even if they are having issues with each other.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-20 09:03
Quote:
why Sam's there.
Because he wants to close the devil's gate or whatever gate?
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-20 13:04
Quote:
You could also go the reverse route and wonder why Sam's there. He clearly doesn't want to be, considering he doesn't even think what they do has meaning anymore. He has been so reserved with Dean it's hard to tell what he thinks of him at all. After this episode, it seems as if he climbed into the impala because he felt guilty about Kevin and because he didn't ave anywhere else to go, but you do wonder why if he dislikes it all so much why he's sticking it out.
All excellent questions that I hope get addressed. It sure would be nice if Show lets Sam talk about what he thinks or what he wants out of life, or why he does what he does. I think I'd be shocked by the newness of seeing that from the writers.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-18 13:50
But I think Dean has forgiven Saim, and does trust him. But he doesn’t completely understand him. I don’t know if he ever will.

Hi pragmatic Dreamer, I agree that Dean has forgiven Sam. When you say he doesn't completely understand him, it reminds me of the last ep of season 4 I think, just after Sam attempted to strangle Dean, he says exactly that "You don't know me, you never have and you never will". I think Sam is both right and wrong about this.

To me Sam is enigmatic as a character (I sometimes wonder how people can say he is the one the viewer should relate to). He always seems to be 'managing' his calm exterior, especially in the face of Deans abrasive (at times) comments. The viewer never really knows what Sam is thinking, not like Dean anyway. When Dean is pissed, everybody knows it (within a 10km radius). The only time you know that Sam is pissed is when he bolts. I don't know if this is intentional or if the writers have just never given Sam a clear POV right from the get go. So yes I agree with you that Dean probably never will, but I also think this is true of the viewer as well.

When Dean was with Lisa, the viewer got a solid impression about how their relationship worked, it was tangible somehow. You don't get the same with Sam and Amelia. Yes, I know that the FB's are not in 'real time' the way they were with Dean (and add the fact that there is ABSOLUTELY no chemistry between the 2 actors zero, none, zilch, (nearly fatally so in fact, I nearly died of boredom watching the FB's). Somehow I don't 'get' that Sam was happy, or sad, or anything really. Sam, to me, just seems to be an enigma to everyone. Much as I love him.
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-19 21:27
Of course everyone has the right to their opinion, but I gotta disagree with this. I am very invested in Sam's flashbacks, and Sam and Amelia's relationship, and I'm seeing more and more support for the relationship with each FB, (mainly with shippers, but still) especially after this latest cliffhanger. I am very glad to see hope that Sam and Amelia will be in each other's lives.
Frankly, Sam needs someone with whom he can get away from Dean for a little while.
E
# E 2012-12-19 21:56
I agree with this Rick D, I am invested in Sam's FB's too, and have been since the beginning. I find them intriguing, subtle and layered. Perhaps the FB are too understated for some, and I know many of you hate 'mysterious Sam' and these flashbacks have only increased the mystery instead of dispelling it. I am one of the rare few who has liked Amelia from the start, and that has only grown with each new flashback.
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-20 00:37
Yea! We should make a team. We could call it "Team Happiness for Sam"
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-20 01:15
I'll join that! No, I may not have been invested in Amelia immediately, but I have grown to like her. I'm glad Sam found someone he could be a mess with, who understood and didn't judge him, who made him feel better about himself and gave him someone to be with in his grief. I'm glad he found some peace and some love. I'm sorry Don came back to throw a spanner in the works and I know that the show is not set up to have a continuing romantic interest for Sam or Dean, but I do appreciate what Amelia gave to Sam and that she helped him find some sanity and stability.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-20 01:39
Quote:
No, I may not have been invested in Amelia immediately, but I have grown to like her.
I am too.Quote:
I'm glad Sam found someone he could be a mess with, who understood and didn't judge him, who made him feel better about himself and gave him someone to be with in his grief.
The thing I would really like to happen is in real time Amelia knowing Sam's story till she met him.
kaz1
# kaz1 2012-12-20 02:47
Hey Rick D & E

I seriously hope you guys are right about the FB's and that Amelia can make my poor Sam happy again, but I just don't find the storyline particularly compelling (husband lost/dead/MIA at war!, cliched and trite as Sympatico would say). When Sam and Dean were walking in the farmers market, and Sam mentions the 'organic' apple, I thought I was watching the wrong programme :D .

I have mentioned before, to me it seems that JC cannot have Sam in the Impala and happy, or with Amelia and central to the story line. It seems to me the only function Amelia can have is to create tension between Sam and Dean. It is going to be interesting to see Dean's reaction to her when they finally meet. Can you imagine if he actually likes her and gives Sam his blessing.

Someone mentioned one way to get things back on track is to have Sam save Dean from Benny (who turns). This will validate Sam's concerns and give him some credibility.
Rick D
# Rick D 2012-12-20 12:59
Quote:
Hey Rick D & E
It is going to be interesting to see Dean's reaction to her when they finally meet. Can you imagine if he actually likes her and gives Sam his blessing.
I find it hard to imagine Dean giving Sam his blessing for anything these days.

Quote:

Someone mentioned one way to get things back on track is to have Sam save Dean from Benny (who turns). This will validate Sam's concerns and give him some credibility.
If Sam saved Dean's life by ganking Benny, well . . . I'll just say that I hope it's appreciated.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-18 16:44
Up to Southern Comfort I would of thought that Dean had forgiven Sam and I also thought that the writers had got past holding Sam to ransom over his past it seem's not . Dean's line about relationship's and being let down in this episode was directed at Sam and it hit the mark . Where the brothers are well some may see it has the boys growing to men I dont this isnt a maturing relationship but it is just the reality of their relationship for me

Benny has been portrayed has a very sympathetic figure as a brother to Dean and it has worked judging by the reaction to him to such a degree that Sam has been seen has wrong to even doubt this vampire and not taking Dean's word .
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-19 07:31
Quote:
Benny has been portrayed has a very sympathetic figure as a brother to Dean and it has worked judging by the reaction to him to such a degree that Sam has been seen has wrong to even doubt this vampire and not taking Dean's word .
I agree
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-19 09:45
to me Dean has been shown as being too right and Benny has been shown as being to sympathetic makes me think we've been set up by the writers. If not then I dont get the point other than Sam being shown to be wrong, Dean beign right again and Benny being another friend for Dean. Is that the point? Because if it is well thats just lame.
loveboys
# loveboys 2012-12-19 14:47
Maybe Sam slept with Amelia and the next day when she opened the door and said "no" that was the last time they saw each other. Sam suffered another mental breakdown and everything else that happened with Amelia happened in his head. Maybe he was hospitalized again, making up a relationship because he was so alone and scared.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-25 23:27
Is there anything to the name repetition in the show? Several people have commented on the number of Amelias in the show so far. Plus there is the 'Don' mentioned back at the beginning of season 8 as well as the current Amelias husband. But has anyone noticed the other 'Don' mentioned in Unforgiven?
The last girl Sam was with that we know about - the 'cougar eyed' one in Unforgiven, her husband's name is Don. That is interestingly close to the current situation isn't it?
So either the writers really need a new baby-names book or ...