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Seeing episodes like this one make me wish that I could just bottle up the awesomeness that is 'Supernatural'. I don't know about you guys but I loved everything about this episode. Yes, harsh things were said, feelings were hurt and brothers were betrayed but that drama keeps fans like myself totally engaged. So needless to say, “Citizen Fang” was a hit in my book.

It's no secret that I'm huge fan of Benny, and by extension, Ty Olsson. I've been singing his praises since day one and he did not disappoint. The thing I like most about Benny’s character is his devotion to Dean. But we saw a new side of Benny in “Citizen Fang”. He has a soft spot for family. His devotion to a great granddaughter he only just met is enough to keep him honest. He's willing to give up blood for blood, if you will. But he's also willing to kill for it.

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I don't blame Benny for killing Martin. The guy was asking for it. He seemed to be from the Gordon Walker school of hunting; unable to see past the black and white. Martin felt like an old school hunter to me, with old ideas about right and wrong. Even Sam was willing to let Benny live as long as he could be sure he wasn't feeding on people. But Martin was appalled that Dean could even be in the same room with Benny and not try to kill him. I wonder if it's a generational thing? Either way it was interesting to think about how far both Sam and Dean have come in regards to their views on hunting. I remember a time when Dean was very much like Martin; shoot first, ask questions later. And here he is, BFF with a vampire. And Sam has always been the one to give the benefit of the doubt to the monsters he hunts yet he was ready to kill Benny on sight. Talk about your role reversals.

I was pleasantly surprised by Sam and Dean at the beginning of the episode. When Sam revealed that he had Martin following Benny I was waiting for Dean to blow his top. Putting myself in Dean’s shoes I think I would have felt betrayed, like my brother couldn’t trust my judgement.  But Dean didn’t go there.  And when Sam explained the situation with the body and that Benny was likely the one behind the killing Dean agreed to check it out. He wasn’t mad, he was matter-of-fact. The whole thing was so level-headed. Sam even agreed to give Dean the time he needed to confront Benny and sort everything out. From Sam’s point of view it would seem fairly obvious that Benny was behind the deaths but he still gave Dean the time he needed.

Of course things didn’t stay that cordial for long. Once the second body appeared, things got ugly. Sam felt that Dean was too close to the situation to really judge Benny’s innocence. I understand his concern, but I have to think there was a better way to handle it then to leave him knocked out and cuffed to a radiator. Why not bring Dean along to confront Benny? Besides, how long do you think you can keep Dean Winchester in cuffs? Dean certainly didn’t help the situation by sending a fake S.O.S. from Amelia. While super effective, it felt cruel. I don’t know how much Dean knows about the circumstances around Sam and Amelia’s break up and I wonder if knowing would have changed his mind about sending the text? I’m guessing no. At the end of the day that text probably saved a life. Whether it was Benny’s or Sam’s, I’m not sure. There’s no doubt in my mind that Sam would have killed Benny if he got the chance. Everything points to the fact that Benny is a killer. And even though it would hurt his relationship with Dean I think Sam sees it as his duty. But I wonder if Benny would kill Sam? If confronted would he actually fight Sam or just try and get out alive? At this point, I don’t know. I like to think he’d spare Sam for Dean’s sake. What do you think?

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The big question on my mind is what Sam and Dean’s relationship is going to look like after this mini-hiatus. They are in some rocky territory. These two particular quotes pretty much sum their emotional state.

Dean: “Every relationship I’ve ever had has gone to crap at some point.”
Sam: “Must feel great finding someone you can trust after all these years.”

Dean: “Guys like us, we don’t get a home. We don’t get family.”
Benny: “You got Sam.”
Dean: “Yeah...”

Ouch. Those lines were almost as painful to type as they were to hear. Neither one feels that the other has their back. When did they stop feeling like family to each other?

So not only do they have these emotional issues to sort through, but now there’s the problem of what to do about Benny. Sam was clearly very unhappy that Dean was still defending Benny after he killed Martin. But he also didn’t hear the whole story. I have to think he’d understand if he knew what Martin did. And what does this kill mean for Benny? That neck looked pretty gnawed on, right? No chance Benny used his hands to kill Martin? He was already struggling with just the smell of Dean’s blood, so a taste can’t be good for his self-control. Dean will forgive this one kill but I don’t think he could look past another, and I know Sam couldn’t. What do you think? Can Dean explain this one to Sam?

I didn’t get a chance to post a review of last week’s episode, but my main takeaway was that I finally felt like I got something from the Sam flashbacks and I was very happy to see that continue into this episode. Last week was the first time I really felt like I understood why Sam and Amelia needed each other. And after the Don bombshell I was able to really sympathize with Sam over his loss. So when Sam saw Amelia and Don together, it was like a dagger in my heart. I really felt for the guy. I’m so happy to have finally connected with that storyline. It still doesn’t explain everything, like why Sam gave up on hunting and finding Dean, but it at least explains a little more about why he was drawn to Amelia and what made him leave. I’m happy with progress!

Ok, well I better stop myself because I could gush about this episode for days! What did you all think? Are you as intrigued by the drama as I am? Are you a member of the Ty Olsson fanclub as well? Do you just want Sam and Dean to talk it out already?

As usual there are some quotes and moments worth mentioning.

Dean: “I’ve got history with the guy. I’m not signing up for a witch hunt, I owe him more than that.”

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When Dean confronted Benny in the woods I was surprised to see them both on edge and ready to fight. Up until that point I wasn’t sure if Dean would be able to kill Benny if he had to.

Dean: “My brother is not someone you want to mess with.” Damn straight!

The conversation between Don and Sam was an interesting one. Makes me respect Don and it makes me respect Sam for stepping down.

Benny: “No offense Dean, but your little brother doesn’t exactly send chills up my spine.” Clearly Benny’s never seen Sam hunt.

Sam: “Just give him a chance like you gave me.”

Comments  

Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-07 13:41
I, too,love Ty Olsson and the character he plays. I wasn't surprised that Martin ended up dead. He was a lot like Gordon and totally came unhinged. I did get a little nervous when Benny put his head on the counter. The scene when Dean walks up to Elizabeth on the steps was so subtle and emotional.. Benny and Dean are a lot alike. They seem to have an understanding about one another that truly makes them seem like "blood brothers". I believe Dean was protecting Sam by sending him away. Benny is a well honed hunter and Sam is a year out of practice. Either way a fight between them would be all bad from Dean's perspective. Dean doesn't know Amelia went back to a husband and Sam left broken hearted. He just sent Sam back to an old girlfriend that he left because his brother was back. Remember Dean doesn't know what we know.
sofia
# sofia 2012-12-07 14:06
I was so nervous when Benny put his head on the counter. I think my mouth was wide open through that entire commercial break. :)
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-07 14:15
:lol:
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-07 14:23
I believe Dean knew Sam would kill Benny so he cruelly sent the text knowing Sam would go to help an innocent, in order to protect Benny. I don't think they would have had Dean make those remarks about not messing with Sam otherwise. Sam is fearsome when he needs to be and I believe Dean knew that Benny wouldn't fight Sam so Sam would end Benny. Look what Benny does when Martin comes after him, he literally puts his head on a platter for the guy I imagine he would have done the same thing if it had been Sam coming after him.

The phone switcheroo was a clear sign to me that Dean doesnt trust Sam at all (he probably never really ever has) that he was prepared in case he needed to save Benny quick.

The 'better brother who has never let me down' thing was always going to crop up again, Dean never lets go of anything apparently and I suppose most Dean fans think he never should where Sam is concerned.

Honestly I dont care who Dean thinks is a better brother and neither should Sam. After all Benny never let Dean down for a whole year in a controlled environment where there was literally no way he could let Dean down and why would Benny do anything to jeopardise his chance to get out of Purgatory? It was only a matter of time before Benny did something Dean deemed to be a personal slight on him.

Sam will just have to face that he will never measure up to Saint Dean's standards and he will have to learn that that doesn't make him a bad person it just makes him human.

Right now I'm OK with Sam and Dean going their separate ways. I don't think they need to be together outside of working on the hell gate closing mission, putting their differences aside for the bigger picture. If they chose to hunt together then ok though I'm not sure how Dean can work with someone he doesnt trust to have his back. Maybe its time for them to stop interfering in each others lives, just work together and keep their personal stuff to themselves. Obviously the viewers would still be prive to what's going on with each of them.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-07 14:27
Quote:

Maybe its time for them to stop interfering in each others lives, just work together and keep their personal stuff to themselves. Obviously the viewers would still be prive to what's going on with each of them.
Ah, where's the fun in that? :-)
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-07 19:32
bigenough, I don't think Benny would have been all that accommodating had Martin not had a knife to his granddaughters throat. Meeting up with Sam would be an entirely different matter. If Sam felt he was guily it would have been ON.

Also Dean is not a saint, god knows, nor does he think of himself as one. He is bossy as hell, but he usually has good instincts. I don't agree that Sam will never up measure up. In spite of the current tensions, Dean loves his brother and would still lay down his life for him in an instant, I believe.

I am one who will never advocate that they go their separate ways, they need to work things out and I think they will eventually. Furthermore Dean has trusted Sam to have his back many, many times in the past AND this season. I don't think their personal issues include that. Of course my opinion only, others will vary.
E
# E 2012-12-09 09:33
Hi Prix86, "Benny and Dean are a lot alike." Its kind of funny really... I actually find Sam and Benny quite a lot alike in the same way I find Amelia and Dean alike. I think the two characters are meant to parallel each other in that way. JMO.
nancyL
# nancyL 2012-12-07 13:51
Sofia, I am also I member of the Benny fanclub.

I think that if Sam had listened to Dean at the end regarding what happened between Martin and Benny, Sam would have realized that dealing with Martin in the first place, was a bad idea. I am sure that Lizzie would have backed up Benny's story. Poor girl.

Also, a bad idea, hitting Dean in the head with a knife. Why didn't Sam take Martin to the 'woodshed' about that? The Sam Winchester that I remember from earlier seasons, would have put Martin on his ass for that.

Martin and Gordon would have been BFF's, I agree, but I really do not think that John would be too upset about Dean having a vamp for a friend, once he understood the circumstances.

I agree that if Benny had been doing the killing, then Dean would have taken care of him, but he wanted to know the facts first. Sam showed that he was mature enough to allow Dean a couple of hours to find out the truth.

Sam is upset that Dean has found someone 'that he can trust'? Not to start anything but do the words 'demon blood and Ruby' mean anything to you, Sammy?

I kind of miss the days of co-dependence. :sad:
I want the brothers Winchester to be one united unit, once again. It seems that everytime they make up and are good again, the writers pull them apart.
sofia
# sofia 2012-12-07 14:09
I think Sam was caught off guard by Martin hitting Dean in the head, and he didn't seem happy about it, but at the end of the day he would have had to do something similar to get Dean to stay back. At least this way Sam didn't actually have to do the deed himself? Although I still don't know why Dean couldn't have come along.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-07 14:33
I dont think Ruby can keep being used towards Sam he fully realized in the end his mistake he has more than proven himself since then and made up for it .And maybe precisely because of that he is not willing to take Benny on Dean's word .

And it isnt where we are now it is easy right now to declare Benny the better one Benny and Purgatory is pure to Dean and Sam is more complicated . At the end of the day Dean is free to think what he likes if he sees Benny that way then there isnt much Sam can do about it and he needs to decide what he needs to do.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-07 16:41
Dean believing Benny to be the better brother shouldn't really affect Sam at all. At the end of the day he'll still be the one hunting with Dean and actually watching his back day in day out and he'll do it because he's Sam and he loves his brother regardless of knowing what Dean really thinks about him. Dean is free to think whatever he wants doesn't mean Sam wont keep doing his job.
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 16:45
Quote:
Dean believing Benny to be the better brother shouldn't really affect Sam at all.
Totally disagree. Their bond is what has helped them save the world over and over. When the bond is threatened, no matter how much they continue to "work together and do the job", it HAS to affect them, imo.... and how well they perform that job.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-07 19:01
The bond barely exists any more and they still manage to do their job
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-07 19:32
Quote:
Dean believing Benny to be the better brother shouldn't really affect Sam at all. At the end of the day he'll still be the one hunting with Dean and actually watching his back day in day out and he'll do it because he's Sam and he loves his brother regardless of knowing what Dean really thinks about him. Dean is free to think whatever he wants doesn't mean Sam wont keep doing his job.
Well goody for Dean. He gets a partner who has his back, who has told him what he is doing as far as hunting goes and has told him that eventually he wants out. Sam gets a partner who doesn't trust him, who has hinted that if push comes to shove he has 2-3 brothers and Sam is definitely number 3 so if it's a choice between his perfect brother and his betrayer brother, well at least he will take the 10 minutes to salt and burn Sam before he takes off with Best Brother Benny. Dean is also willing to trick and lie to Sam whenever he deems it expedient and has already shown that he is willing to make it impossible for Sam to reach Amelia unless Dean deigns to permit it because he is willing to clone Amelia's number without informing Sam. Dean's covered under your scenario, Sam not so much.
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-07 22:44
Quote:
Quote:
Dean believing Benny to be the better brother shouldn't really affect Sam at all. At the end of the day he'll still be the one hunting with Dean and actually watching his back day in day out and he'll do it because he's Sam and he loves his brother regardless of knowing what Dean really thinks about him. Dean is free to think whatever he wants doesn't mean Sam wont keep doing his job.
Well goody for Dean. He gets a partner who has his back, who has told him what he is doing as far as hunting goes and has told him that eventually he wants out. Sam gets a partner who doesn't trust him, who has hinted that if push comes to shove he has 2-3 brothers and Sam is definitely number 3 so if it's a choice between his perfect brother and his betrayer brother, well at least he will take the 10 minutes to salt and burn Sam before he takes off with Best Brother Benny. Dean is also willing to trick and lie to Sam whenever he deems it expedient and has already shown that he is willing to make it impossible for Sam to reach Amelia unless Dean deigns to permit it because he is willing to clone Amelia's number without informing Sam. Dean's covered under your scenario, Sam not so much.
Exactly! What Dean did to Sam was despicable. To send him that text and cause him to worry about someone he loves was a horrible thing to do. Dean should not get a pass for this. Why would Sam want to have anything to do with Dean after this? Considering the way Dean has treated him, maybe he should just go his own way and let Dean have what he's professing to want.
I know that if it was me, I wouldn't want anything more to do with Dean.
tia
# tia 2012-12-07 15:13
sofia-wonderful review of this episode. my favorite parts were not really big in the story- jensen singing, and the impala peel out and screeching to a stop. i am part of the benny bandwagon. i love the character -and it gives dean somekind of seaon arc for a change. the brothers fighting-i don't mind either. its brings something differant because of the level of thier distaste for each other. and so many times i thought dean would take that swing at sam we all know -but dean never did. he seems more grown up and resigned to the fact that him and sam are on differant pages at this time.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-07 16:51
It does seem like they're learning to be apart, or have learnt to be apart over the last year and both really kind of liked it but are just to scared to admit it. This is actually a really good build up to having them work apart more for the rest of the series. Dean is building a family/network away from Sam (Benny, Cas, possibly even Garth) and Sam may still have a shot with Amelia though it may be a long one or even on his own (he's pretty good at that). So they can be apart more and be on different pages and be ok. I think we'll see them apart a lot more from here on out which works better for the series as a whole as it works out better for Jared and Jensen)
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 17:00
Hunting alone isn't safe. Hunting with Benny or Cas isn't exactly a great option either, although hunting with Cas would be better than with a vampire fighting his hunger all the time, imo.
Sam and Amelia? No, I really don't see that happening, unless it turns out that Dons presence is a direct result of angel/demon interference somehow.
Sam and Dean learning to be less co-dependent is a good thing, I agree. Would there still be an audience if they stay apart and on "different pages"? I don't know. So much of what works for the show, for me, is the chemistry between the Js. I'm not so sure I think that would work better for the series. It may in fact work better for the Js, but not so sure I'd want to watch.
ciar
# ciar 2012-12-07 18:45
I'm with you on that st50, I can just about cope with the increased number of eps in which we've seen Sam and Dean off working apart or with other people. However, if we see even less of Sam and Dean together on screen then I'm not going to find SPN as interesting (even if it works for the Js in terms of their schedules it wouldn't work for me as a viewer :-? ) I'm watching SPN because I'm interested in the relationship between the brothers (and how they work together to solve supernatural cases) - I'm old skool that way LOL.
E
# E 2012-12-09 09:51
sorry bigenough. If the show is moving toward having the brothers "work apart more for the rest of the series" then it will be done at the end of this year; because that isn't the show. I think all of the angst is going to lead to a greater understanding of how they are different people but still love one another and want to work together, thus bringing them closer than ever. That is the basic premise of the show, Carver has acknowledged this, and J and J continually reenforce this in interviews and at cons. If you want to see a show where these two guys develop totally separate lives and come together once a year for a hunter's family reunion, I think you are going to be out of luck.
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 16:33
Nice review, sofia. Thanks.

I think Sam's just in a world of hurt right now.... he doesn't have enough information to understand Dean's relationship with Benny, other than hearing how he's never let Dean down. Dean doesn't know enough about Sam's relationship with Amelia either, and so doesn't understand what using her to get Sam away from Benny really did to Sam.
In this episode, Sam's seen that his relationships with both Dean and Amelia - the only really deep relationships he had left - are not what he used to have. Where does that leave him? Out in the cold, alone, or trying to rebuild something with one of them. But which one? IS their any going back with either of them? No wonder he hung up on Dean, and looks to be going to slam the door in his face next episode.

And Dean... where does he stand with Benny now? Martin definitely look like a vamp attack victim, and Benny is in the wind. So.. when next they meet (because we all know they will), just how is Dean going to react? Still trusting or more wary? I know he approached Benny with a knife, but would he actually go through with the kill? How does he approach Sam? He looked like he is maybe beginning to realize Sam won't be all that forgiving this time.

Just more questions! Next episode looks like Cas is in some trouble, so I'm guessing these issues get shelved again. Arrgghh. lol
tia
# tia 2012-12-07 17:20
my problem with all this sam on benny hate and mistrust is this.-and i don't know if it is a writing problem or if they want sam to look ridiculously jealous of benny-but cas KNOWS benny-why doesn't sam just ask cas what he thinks of the vamp???? and there are some people out there who think elizabeth killed martin because of where the blood was on her and on the floor and that benny is covering for her by making it look like a vamp kill. i like that interepretation .
st50
# st50 2012-12-07 17:22
Quote:
and there are some people out there who think elizabeth killed martin because of where the blood was on her and on the floor and that benny is covering for her by making it look like a vamp kill. i like that interepretation.
That's an interesting idea!
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-07 22:56
Quote:
why doesn't sam just ask cas
Simple, Sam and Cas do not share a profound bond
E
# E 2012-12-09 10:00
Cas doesn't know Benny at all as Cas was only found at the very end of Dean's stay in purgatory. All we have seen from the time all three of them were together is that Benny felt that Cas was a complete liability and a danger to the success of their escape plan. Benny spent a good portion of his time trying to get Dean to ditch Cas and yet Benny was too concerned about messing with his meal ticket to jeopardize his ride on the soul train to challenge Dean all that much on his insistence that Cas come with them. Benny did help to save Cas that one time, but how do we know Benny wasn't doing it to save face with Dean? We don't. I think if Sam were to ask Cas about Benny then Cas would say he doesn't trust Benny at all, which would only reenforce what Sam's current opinion already is.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-07 17:29
Castiel doesnt know Benny . From what I understand he spent time away from Dean to protect him , he know's no more about how Benny would act in the real world than in reality Dean did .

The Benny situation isnt of Sam's making , he didnt ask Dean to bring him back or tell him how much better as a brother he is because they ran around together in Purgatory . Sam cant undo mistakes in the past , he cant do anymore than he did , he cant control Dean's perceptions and belief's.
Dean being hurt because of Sam not looking seems to me to be of been a trigger for far more rooted feelings and Benny has been the reason he found to voice his real thoughts. Sam will more than likely be accused of jealousy it is a easy assumption to make but like Dean there are far more deeper things going on .
tia
# tia 2012-12-07 18:13
sharon-cas did spend time with benny-he spent time with them after they found him in purgatory. yea we don't know the timeline-that is my biggest beef with the purgatory thing and letting those flashbacks go so fast. we don't know the timeline between the time dean landed in purgatory-when benny found dean and they made the deal-and how long were they together until they found cas-and how long after that did dean and benny get out of purgatory. that would shed some light on alot of things. but cas does know benny-they were talking in purgatory with thier time together there-sam never has talked to benny.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-07 23:03
Quote:
sam never has talked to benny.
and why is that?
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-08 13:30
But why would Sam talk to him tia Dean could of mediated between the two esp considering the level to which Dean holds this vampire and Sam being his brother but Dean lied about Benny from the start , he has given very little impetous to Sam to talk to Benny and he certainly hasnt now.
E
# E 2012-12-09 10:13
It also begs the question; if Benny is so important to Dean (which he obviously is) and Sam has ALWAYS been willing to understand the grey areas when it comes to monsters and their potential for self reflection and being basically good beings, then why didn't Dean just introduce Sam to Benny and explain the situation to him in the first place? "Hey Sam, here's the guy who helped get me out of purgatory. He saved my ass more times down there than I can even count. Yeah, he's a vamp, but it's ok, he's been drinking blood from plastic bags for years.. he's like Lenore in that. Benny's a good guy, he really helped me out, can you cut him a break here?" See, problem fixed. Sam would never have been able to resist an approach like that. But no, for some reason Dean treats Benny like a dirty secret that needs to be kept hidden, calling him on the sly, or ditching Sam to go deal with Benny situations without explaining anything. Why should Sam trust one thing about Benny when Dean won't even confront the situation head on? When he won't discuss it, when he hides things and keeps secrets? Dean has created the entire situation of mistrust around Benny by refusing to discuss things with his brother and then he turns around and blames Sam for being suspicious. Geez, double standard much?
CJ
# CJ 2012-12-09 12:36
E - u make a good point but I think Dean did do that (albeit a bit late). To be fair he did tell Sam that Benny's the reason he's topside. He did tell him that Benny doesnt drink people. Even in this episode he does try to explain that to Sam & Martin. Now why he didnt tell him that in ep 1... (apart from the fact that this was the writers contrived attempt at creating conflict) I think it has more to do with Dean's past feelings about monsters than Sam's. Dean's always been black & white. Now he's not. Dean admits to Sam that people change. But maybe he didnt want to acknowledge that change to Sam till he really had to. Am not justifying the action just trying to find a reasonable explanation. I dont think he wants to hide Benny becos he's ashamed but becos he wants to protect him. He doesnt think Sam (or other hunters) will allow Benny to live. And Dean's suspicion was proved right. Sam/Martin didnt buy Dean's story about Desmond. Both brothers have reasons to be wary of the other at this point. But am sure all will be resolved on 16th Jan. Am a dreamer :)
E
# E 2012-12-09 20:39
Dean said "Benny's the reason I'm topside" those 5 words and nothing else. That's not an explanation. He has avoided telling Sam the 'how' that goes along with that statement entirely. We even saw him specifically avoiding it in Southern Comfort. It's not enough and his refusal to discuss if further is causing the suspicion in Sam that Dean finds so irritating. Maybe it had something to to with his false memories of purgatory, but he STILL hasn't told Sam anything and the false memories situation was resolved.

Dean admits that he's changed but won't just say, "oh by the way, I've come around to your way of thinking concerning Benny." He can give voice to the concept but refuses to own up to the specifics? If he can't even accept this change, if he's secretly ashamed of it, then a)how can Sam be expected to accept it, and b)Dean hasn't really changed his pov at all. Now both brothers are so peeved that they have backed each other into a corner and won't budge, and neither is going to be willing to offer up any more information now that they are feeling so defensive.

I think it WILL all be resolved also, but maybe not on the 16th... supposedly episode 13 is some big emotional reckoning, maybe then.
E
# E 2012-12-10 07:48
Cas spent only a very short amount of time with Benny. Dean's whole year in purgatory seemed to be about finding Cas, and when they did, the found the portal and Dean left. How much time could they have spent together? And even if they were together for a month finding the portal, Cas has a very low opinion of Benny, so Sam has absolutely nothing to gain by questioning Cas other than to confirm that all of his suspicions about Benny were right all along.
Karen Graham
# Karen Graham 2012-12-07 20:19
Great review Sofia. I'm also starting to believe in the Sam/Amelia storyline after a slow start. Initially I felt there wasn't much chemistry between the two but, in the last couple of episodes, the flashbacks have been much better. It's obvious they care for one another. I do feel very sad for Sam because his relationships with Dean and Amelia seem to be in tatters right now and he is alone again!

I love how Jeremy Carver & the writers are handling this season... slowly peeling back the layers and revealing more each week. We completely understand why Dean is loyal to Benny and I think we are beginning to understand what happened with Sam.

Although we still don't know for certain that Sam had a mental breakdown (and this is why he didn't look for Dean), his comments to Amelia lead to this conclusion... 'my world imploded' and 'you saved me'. Maybe Sam is staying quiet about this because he feels guilty about letting Dean down again. After all, Dean survived purgatory and has come back an even better hunter.

Gotta love (or hate) Jeremy Carver for keeping those initial few weeks/months a secret... but I hope we eventually find out what Sam went through, and that he tells Dean about it. I also hope that Dean finally opens up to Sam about purgatory and the reasons why he trusts Benny so much...

I guess it wouldn't be Supernatural without all this brotherly angst and, of course, I'm really looking forward to their inevitable reconciliation. So far I'm loving season GR8 and can't wait for Jan 16.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-08 11:35
To percysowner and Jo1027-REALLY! Sam lets another hunter knock Dean out and helps him handcuff him to a radiator but he has Dean's back! Dean is dispicable for sending the text even though it probably saved Sam's life. Benny had been in purgatory for 50 years fighting and Sam had just taken a year off. If Sam doesn't want to hunt then he shouldn't but make up your mind Sam! Dean has been very forthcoming with Sam about purgatory and what it was like in episodes 1 and 7 and about why he feels loyal to Benny. Sam just said there was a girl and then there wasn't and he found something, a normal life. Never told Dean he was grieving the loss of Dean or that the relationship with Amelia went south when her husband came back but Dean is supposed to know Sam is sad and crushed. I think Dean has shown great restraint with Sam this season considering how Sam keeps trying to bait him. Above all let's not forget that Sam is part demon and did some blood drinking of his own in the past so if he can change why not Benny. IMO Sam should be more sympathetic to Benny then even Dean. Tricks and lies by Dean, what was calling in Martin on the sly by Sam. Sam never put a tracker on anyone else. Everything that happened in this episode started because Sam put crazy Martin on Benny's tail. Not very good judgement on Sam's part, IMO.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 12:20
Quote:
Sam lets another hunter knock Dean out and helps him handcuff him to a radiator but he has Dean's back!
Yes Sam totally knew that Martin was going to knock out Dean and Sam simply waited for Martin to make his move.Dean the brother who values Sam so so much...The injustice to Dean OMG!OMG!OMG!Quote:
Dean is dispicable for sending the text even though it probably saved Sam's life.
I know you don't have much belief in Sam's ability as a hunter but I do and surprise Dean does too.Quote:
Dean has been very forthcoming with Sam about purgatory and what it was like in episodes 1 and 7 and about why he feels loyal to Benny.
Same way Sam has been about Amelia.Quote:
I think Dean has shown great restraint with Sam this season considering how Sam keeps trying to bait him.
I think Sam has shown great reatraint with Dean every season considering how Dean tries to bait him.Quote:
Above all let's not forget that Sam is part demon and did some blood drinking of his own in the past so if he can change why not Benny.
Because Benny is not Sam.Quote:
IMO Sam should be more sympathetic to Benny then even Dean.
IMO Sam should not be more sympathetic than Dean if he has no good reason to be sympathetic.Quote:
Tricks and lies by Dean, what was calling in Martin on the sly by Sam. Sam never put a tracker on anyone else.
Huh!percysowner and Jo1027 if you guys understand what this means please tell me.Quote:
Everything that happened in this episode started because Sam put crazy Martin on Benny's tail.
No.Martin was not crazy he was jittery at timesQuote:
Not very good judgement on Sam's part, IMO.
Reasonable judgement on Sam's part IMO.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 12:51
AnonymousN, she is saying Sam had Benny tracked when he has never had anyone else (i.e., Ruby, Lenore, Amy, werewolf chick from this season) tracked even though they were also monsters.

I think that is a valid point. I also have a problem w/Sam's behavior and attitude re: Benny esp. in light of his past, but my problem has more to do w/the spotty, vague writing than anything else. Sam has always been the one who has been willing to give a monster the benefit of the doubt, so I'm personally having trouble understanding his beef/problem w/Benny.

If Carver would simply have Sam open his mouth and say more than one line, I'd probably understand him a little better. As it stands, his beef w/Benny - to me as I can only speak for myself - has come off as kind of petty and jealous than anything legitimate.

Again, that's just my feeling about the writing. I can make up reasons why Sam distrusts Benny, but I'd rather be told by the writers why through Sam. I know he mentioned how these things have turned out for them in the past, but that was too subtle for me. I would have preferred a little speech about his feelings . . . something more substantive.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 13:30
Nicely stated lala.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 13:35
Thanks :-)
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-08 16:03
Quote:
AnonymousN, she is saying Sam had Benny tracked when he has never had anyone else (i.e., Ruby, Lenore, Amy, werewolf chick from this season) tracked even though they were also monsters.

I think that is a valid point. I also have a problem w/Sam's behavior and attitude re: Benny esp. in light of his past, but my problem has more to do w/the spotty, vague writing than anything else. Sam has always been the one who has been willing to give a monster the benefit of the doubt, so I'm personally having trouble understanding his beef/problem w/Benny.

If Carver would simply have Sam open his mouth and say more than one line, I'd probably understand him a little better. As it stands, his beef w/Benny - to me as I can only speak for myself - has come off as kind of petty and jealous than anything legitimate.

Again, that's just my feeling about the writing. I can make up reasons why Sam distrusts Benny, but I'd rather be told by the writers why through Sam. I know he mentioned how these things have turned out for them in the past, but that was too subtle for me. I would have preferred a little speech about his feelings . . . something more substantive.
I think, Sam´s problem with Benny is pretty simple:

Sam doesn´t know him AND he is close to Dean and Dean trusts him.

Just as Sam was close to Ruby and trusted her, because she saved his life and sanity.
And Sam didn´t want to hear any of the warnings and it was, was freed Lucifer in the end.

He even does say so in Citizen Fang.
"..and you KNOW how these things turn out for us"
E
# E 2012-12-09 10:36
Quote:
I think that is a valid point. I also have a problem w/Sam's behavior and attitude re: Benny esp. in light of his past, but my problem has more to do w/the spotty, vague writing than anything else. Sam has always been the one who has been willing to give a monster the benefit of the doubt, so I'm personally having trouble understanding his beef/problem w/Benny.
Lala, I made a similar response upthread to basically this same question; it's because Dean is treating his relationship with Benny like a dirty secret that needs to be kept under wraps. Its like Dean finds their connection somehow shameful and feels he must conceal it. Deans defense of Benny and his treatment of Benny are in conflict with one another. Sam can see this from miles off because he's been there. If you say out of one side of your mouth that the relationship is important and then try to hide all aspects of it, it becomes suspicious. Since returning from purgatory, Dean has been erratic, violent and above all secretive, which really goes against his established nature. Since all of this behavior seems to be intrinsically tied to purgatory and Benny, it's not hard at all to see why Sam is suspicious; and he has the benefit of experience as well to add to his response.

And I disagree strongly with Prix68 above; Dean hasn't told Sam ANYTHING at all about Benny, he refuses to and expects Sam to just toddle along behind and not question anything. Well, that wasn't Sam style before and it's even less so now. Sam, in fact has never even said a single word to Benny, so no, he doesn't know Benny and has no reason to trust him. And because Dean has been so erratic and secretive his word is not good enough, not in this situation, not when there are dead bodies piling up. If Dean had been up front with his brother about Benny in the first place, telling Sam WHY he is so important and letting Sam meet him, then I don't think Sam wouldn't have felt compelled to hire Martin to track him in the first place. It's Dean who has created the situation that has lead to Martin's death and Benny's flight by keeping secrets from his brother. Sam is keeping secrets too, but Sam's secret life is not tied to the hunt and Dean's is. He is obligated to be up front with his hunting partner about things that might affect their hunting situation.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 12:28
One of the more interesting exchanges this episode is when Dean asks Sam "Do you think the Benny we know would do this?" and Sam answers "I don't know Benny,". Dean tends to assume Sam will think and react like Dean does. Earlier in the season when Sam said he was helping close the gates of Hell and then he was done, Dean told him that he really didn't feel that way. Now that is probably because once Dean left Ben and Lisa DEAN started to want to be back in hunting. But Sam really did feel this way. Now Dean has forgotten that No, Sam was not in Purgatory with Dean, he doesn't know Benny the way Dean does and even on his best psychic days, Sam couldn't read minds. I think one of the reasons Dean hasn't told Sam about Benny is because on a very slight level he thinks Sam should know about Dean's experiences by osmosis.

Of course Dean sees Sam not agreeing with him on Benny as a betrayal. He thinks that Sam thinks the way Dean does and knows what Dean does and feels the way Dean does, so if Sam acts on his independent judgement then Sam is betraying Dean. What Sam is doing is acting on what Sam actually know, actually feels and actually thinks and since he's not Dean, he has to make those decisions on HIS experiences, not Dean.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 12:43
But if Dean is treating Benny like a dirty secret, then Sam's problem is really w/Dean and not Benny. As you mentioned, Sam's never spoken a word to Benny. Sam's never had conversation w/him. Sam's never hung out w/him. Sam knows next to nothing about Benny. All Sam knows is Dean trusts Benny, and Benny's a vampire. Does he even know Benny's a vegetarian vamp like Lenore? I'm not sure. Maybe Dean told him off-screen. So, Sam knows very little about Benny. And given Sam's feelings re: monsters, I can't see him wanting Benny dead simply b/c he's a vampire.

I can't help but also consider the fact that Benny is NOT intervening in their lives. Benny is not like Ruby in that way. He hasn't taken up the backseat of the Impala. He isn't constantly calling Dean or pulling Dean in his direction. Benny is minding his own business. There is no reason, in my mind, for Sam to even care all that much about Benny. So what is driving Sam's Benny obsession as I like to call it?

I don't believe it's b/c Benny's a vampire and could be hurting people. Sam took a year off and wasn't concerned w/all the other vamps out there biting people. I don't think it's b/c he thinks Benny's a bad influence on Dean. As we've seen, Benny doesn't bother Dean. Benny does his own thing.

Until Carver decides to give Sam a voice, I'll just do what everyone else does and make up my own theory. I think Sam is projecting his anger w/Dean onto Benny. Benny is NOT Sam's problem. Dean is Sam's problem. Clearly, Dean does not trust Sam or have any faith in him. Sam now knows this, and it's upsetting to him so he's taking out his anger w/Dean onto Benny.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-09 13:06
Quote:
But if Dean is treating Benny like a dirty secret, then Sam's problem is really w/Dean and not Benny. As you mentioned, Sam's never spoken a word to Benny. Sam's never had conversation w/him. Sam's never hung out w/him. Sam knows next to nothing about Benny. All Sam knows is Dean trusts Benny, and Benny's a vampire. Does he even know Benny's a vegetarian vamp like Lenore? I'm not sure. Maybe Dean told him off-screen. So, Sam knows very little about Benny. And given Sam's feelings re: monsters, I can't see him wanting Benny dead simply b/c he's a vampire.

I can't help but also consider the fact that Benny is NOT intervening in their lives. Benny is not like Ruby in that way. He hasn't taken up the backseat of the Impala. He isn't constantly calling Dean or pulling Dean in his direction. Benny is minding his own business. There is no reason, in my mind, for Sam to even care all that much about Benny. So what is driving Sam's Benny obsession as I like to call it?

I don't believe it's b/c Benny's a vampire and could be hurting people. Sam took a year off and wasn't concerned w/all the other vamps out there biting people. I don't think it's b/c he thinks Benny's a bad influence on Dean. As we've seen, Benny doesn't bother Dean. Benny does his own thing.

Until Carver decides to give Sam a voice, I'll just do what everyone else does and make up my own theory. I think Sam is projecting his anger w/Dean onto Benny. Benny is NOT Sam's problem. Dean is Sam's problem. Clearly, Dean does not trust Sam or have any faith in him. Sam now knows this, and it's upsetting to him so he's taking out his anger w/Dean onto Benny.
it´s rather that there is someone, who is close to Dean, who is a monster and Sam doesn´t know him.

We see all that goes on pretty much through Dean´s eyes.
WE know, that Benny drinks AB negative straight from the bottle. We´ve seen him do it.

Sam hasn´t.
All that Sam sees, is that his brother has gotten strange phone calls since he got back from Purgatory, that he took a day off (Dean?! Taking a day off?!) to go clean out a nest with a Vampire?
That Dean takes a vamps words at face value and protects him.

Sam hasn´t seen the exchange between Dean and Benny and Benny´s genuine pain.

And Sam has been through this, with Ruby... and started the Apocalypse.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 13:16
Not to beat a dead horse . . . . but it still seems like Sam's issues are with Dean and not Benny. If it's upsetting to Sam that Dean is taking a vampire's words at face value, then Sam needs to have a chat w/Dean, right? Dean is the issue, right?
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-09 13:21
Quote:
Not to beat a dead horse . . . . but it still seems like Sam's issues are with Dean and not Benny. If it's upsetting to Sam that Dean is taking a vampire's words at face value, then Sam needs to have a chat w/Dean, right? Dean is the issue, right?
No, Sam is just worried, that Dean might be in danger.
And might trust someone, he shouldn´t be trusting, just as Sam did

I mean, yes, of course, Dean is the issue here...
The way Sam is worried about everybody close to him, how he panicks, whenever there might be something going wrong even slightly, ties into this pretty nicely.

And the first time, we saw this, actually WAS when Dean was on a hunt with Benny.

i don´t think, it´s jealousy.. Sam is absolutely not someone for jealousy.
He never had a big problem with Castiel, if anything, he was hurt, that they were so close and he was kept on the outside because he was an "abomination"
(And I´m really hoping, they are keeping on that path of bringing him and Sam closer together... he always only second best :( Poor boy)
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-08 13:15
Thank you! I was having trouble composing a non-snarky answer to the post. This is great.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 15:06
Deleted repost
Jo1027
# Jo1027 2012-12-08 22:06
No idea what that means. My only comment on that is that Sam did not call Martin. Martin called Sam. I feel Sam felt this was an easy thing for Martin to do as it was not a hunting job but a case of making sure of Benny. Since Dean hasn't told Sam anything much about Benny I think Sam had every right to question his judgement. After all, Dean has done the same to Sam, repeatedly.
It was a case of timing with Martin calling when he did.
Sam didn't knock Dean out, Martin did. I doubt Sam knew he was going to do that..
Sorry you got so upset, but Dean didn't do it to protect Sam. He did to protect Benny, IMO. I stand by my post.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 12:45
Sam is NOT part demon. I'm not sure why you think that. The whole S5 angle about the blood changing Sam never went anywhere. Sam is who he always has been - at least physically.
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 15:08
Deleted repost
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 15:10
Deleted -repost
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 15:18
Thanks lala2Quote:
Tricks and lies by Dean, what was calling in Martin on the sly by Sam. Sam never put a tracker on anyone else.
Why should Sam put a tracker on them.He knows them .If anything Dean should have put a tracker on them.But wait Dean does not need to track them .He just kills them.On one hand we have Sam having Benny tracked behind Dean's back and on other we have Dean killing Amy after reassuring Sam behind Sam's back.I find the first one reasonable and second one deplorable.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-08 14:03
If Dean was restricting himself to that and that feeling of hurt of Sam not looking then my understanding of his mindset and feelings wouldnt be waning but he isnt not IMO .

Dean's issues will end up breaking Sam at this rate and instead of throwing Benny at Sam like some stuff you missile which is achieving diddly squat maybe actually talking would of been a better option for both of them actually.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 14:17
I'm sorry, Sharon, restricting himself to what? Are you talking about Dean being hurt that Sam didn't look for him? If so, I think that, combined w/all the other unresolved resentments and hangups Dean apparently has toward Sam since childhood, is what's driving the whole "Benny is a better brother to me than you've ever been" feeling.

I do agree that Sam shouldn't be expected to fix Dean's self-esteem issues. I also agree that the boys should sit down and talk it out.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-08 14:30
Yes lala2 that is what I am saying. And while I understood his feelings over Sam not looking I cannot support him over dragging up the past esp after his declarations of forgivness and everything Sam has been through.

Now mind you thats just me how I feel but if Dean can,t resolve the past in his own mind if he insists on holding onto everything from their childhood to present day then he should leave Sam well alone.
Leah
# Leah 2012-12-08 15:06
I wonder how it would go over if some supernatural enity took everybodies deepest unspoken thoughts, fears and resentments and made us spew it at our loved ones. Everybody has them. I still contend that these boys, at their core, love each other deeply and fences must be mended. They have to learn to forgive each other and see the others point of view. YES I know Sam's hasn't been addressed much and that too must happen!
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-08 15:09
Oh, I also agree that Dean shouldn't be dredging up past sins that he supposedly forgave. I have a huge problem w/someone offering forgiveness but still mentioning the slight/sin/wron g. That's not cool.

But since Dean has apparently not forgiven Sam for anything, I can see why this most recent slight/sin/wron g (i.e., Sam not looking for him) causes him to feel closer to Benny than Sam. In Dean's mind, Benny has proven himself to be loyal and trustworthy whereas Sam hasn't.

While I hate that Sam didn't look for Dean and find it very OOC, I do agree w/you that Sam shouldn't have to stick around and listen to Dean put him down. Sam did what he did. It can't be changed. If Dean can't accept that, then they should part ways.
bigenough
# bigenough 2012-12-08 18:47
If Dean hasnt forgiven Sam for anything that has happened over the years by now than I dont think he ever will. Sam goes for trust. That is not conducive to a healthy working environment, Dean cant trust Sam to have his back and Sam cant go on knowing Dean doesnt trust him and will never forgive him for anything, the best thing for them to do would be to part ways. No one should have to be stuck in an unhealthy relationship that clearly isnt good for them.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-10 07:29
sorry should be 'same goes for trust'
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-08 14:56
Why is it that Dean's feelings are always viewed as neurotic and controlling and he's a dick (a word I hate) but Sam is Mr. Sensitive? If the reverse had happened and Sam had been knocked out by Martin and Dean had gone along and handcuffed Sam to the radiator, the cries of foul play would have been endless. Dean told Sam that Benny hadn't been drinking blood for a long time and that Benny was the reason he was out of purgatory and that is why Dean owes him the benefit of the doubt. If San doesn't share enough information it's because Dean didn't ask him in the right way but iif Dean doesn't share information he's being secretive. Double standard people . I guess Dean should really apologize for getting zapped to purgatory and making Sam feel bad. Dean has issues but not Sam? Please
anonymousN
# anonymousN 2012-12-08 15:26
Quote:
Why is it that Dean's feelings are always viewed as neurotic and controlling and he's a dick (a word I hate) but Sam is Mr. Sensitive?
Why is Dean the selfless one and Sam the selfish prick (a word I hate) .Quote:
If San doesn't share enough information it's because Dean didn't ask him in the right way but iif Dean doesn't share information he's being secretive.
No,you are repeating it wrong.Dean does not want to hear about Sam's past year and is not telling about purgatory.Quote:
I guess Dean should really apologize for getting zapped to purgatory and making Sam feel bad.
I don't want him to but if you think we think like that I really can't do anything.Quote:
If the reverse had happened and Sam had been knocked out by Martin and Dean had gone along and handcuffed Sam to the radiator, the cries of foul play would have been endless.
the reverse did not happen so no opinion on that.
Sharon
# Sharon 2012-12-08 15:39
Dean isnt making Sam just feel bad about Purgatory though is he that is my problem. But I most certainly would never dismiss Dean's issues as neurotic but they are damaging .
I didnt like the radiator situation and wouldnt like it either way round but was it more damaging than the premeditated text message . And I most certainly know Sam has issues :-)
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-08 16:24
Look I have two brothers who are as close as Sam and Dean. They even work together. Not hunting, though. Lol. But when they argue it is always messy and nasty because they care so much about what the other one thinks of them so the hurt is always out of proportion IMO. I am the girl in the family so I get to hear both sides. All I am saying, especially to percysowner, is when it comes right down to it neither brother is totally right or wrong, all good or all bad. Taking sides or validating one brothers feelings over another's is harsh. Nobody is perfect, not me, not you and certainly not Sam and Dean. So, lets take the high road and hope when the air clears the brothers will be better and wiser for all the discord between them. Both brothers have made some harsh comments, kept secrets and done some questionable things. BOTH. That's what makes for good drama.
Karen Graham
# Karen Graham 2012-12-08 18:18
Quote:
All I am saying is when it comes right down to it neither brother is totally right or wrong, all good or all bad. Taking sides or validating one brothers feelings over another's is harsh. Nobody is perfect, not me, not you and certainly not Sam and Dean ... Both brothers have made some harsh comments, kept secrets and done some questionable things. BOTH. That's what makes for good drama.
Well said. Both brothers did questionable things in this episode, but I believe the underlying reason for their actions was love for each other. Sam hasn't forgotten how he was manipulated by Ruby and he also realises that trusting monsters usually comes at a price. So he wants to make sure Benny really isn't killing people and, by doing so, is protecting his brother.

Dean sent Sam the text message to get him out of the way because he was afraid of what would happen if Sam and Benny came face to face. They are both great fighters, but Benny would no doubt have the edge after so many years in purgatory. He was protecting Sam by sending him away.

Sure there are other reasons clouding both situations. Sam is hurt by/jealous about some of Dean's comments and he doesn't understand Dean's relationship with Benny (because Dean has never trusted monsters in the past). Dean is hurt because Sam didn't look for him and ultimately wants to give up hunting. He doesn't understand Sam's relationship with Amelia; just sees it as Sam wanting to leave again.

They are both in a tough place right now because neither of them knows enough about each others previous year... I'm sure as the season goes on they will learn more and, as Prix68 says, that makes for great drama.
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-08 18:38
Thanks, Karen
E
# E 2012-12-09 11:37
Hi Sofia, Nice review. I agree with most of what you said about the eppie, and I do really, really love Benny. He's a great character. I am not convinced that he is the soft and cuddly prince that some fans think he is though. I think there is a high likelihood that Benny might not turn out to be such a knight in shining armor. I do like him though, he's a great actor and very sympathetic at the moment. I'd love to see something truly ambiguous happen with Benny; something like, he's playing Dean, but he didn't want to or was manipulated himself into doing so and feels bad about it, but has betrayed him anyway. That would be wickedly painful for everyone and probably very satisfying.


There's just two little spots that I didn't agree with; Quote:
And here he is, BFF with a vampire. And Sam has always been the one to give the benefit of the doubt to the monsters he hunts yet he was ready to kill Benny on sight. Talk about your role reversals.
I don't see where Sam has reversed his ideas about Monsters at all he reacted predictably to Kate after all. He just has on Benny, because Benny is in Dean's life under completely mysterious and concealed circumstances. Dean won't discuss Benny, or explain why Benny is important and quite frankly, Dean treats Benny like the red-headed step child, as though he is ashamed of his relationship with him. Why wouldn't Sam be suspicious of that?

Quote:
I was pleasantly surprised by Sam and Dean at the beginning of the episode. When Sam revealed that he had Martin following Benny I was waiting for Dean to blow his top. Putting myself in Dean’s shoes I think I would have felt betrayed, like my brother couldn’t trust my judgement. But Dean didn’t go there. And when Sam explained the situation with the body and that Benny was likely the one behind the killing Dean agreed to check it out. He wasn’t mad, he was matter-of-fact. The whole thing was so level-headed.
I was surprised at how reasonable the brother's were being in that scene and I think Sam was too quite frankly. But in retrospect we now know that Dean could afford to be patient and level headed because he had an ace in the whole in his burner phone with Amelia's information on it. Dean wasn't being patient, he was being calculating and against Sam too, which is just ...wow.

Also, I am getting a little tired of people using the word betrayed all the time especially in relation to Dean. How is any of this in any way a betrayal on Sam's part? Sam disagrees... that's it and as a thinking adult he has every right to IMO. I guess in Dean's world disagreement IS betrayal.

Sam only asked Martin to watch over Benny AFTER there was already a body, at least that was my take on it. There were in fact three bodies implied; the one that caught Sam's eye and made him put a tracker on Benny to begin with, the sleezy old guy from the diner and the young girl we saw dead in the woods. And since Sam feels that he can't turn to Dean in the matter of Benny, he had Martin look into it instead. He was doing his job as a hunter.
E
# E 2012-12-09 11:38
Look percysowner! I did it!
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 12:06
YAY! Congratulations !
Prix68
# Prix68 2012-12-09 12:24
Sam had Martin tracking Benny before the first kill. Martin says things were quiet for the first week and then the guy from the bar was killed and that' s when he calls Sam. Sam tells Dean he has Martin tracking Benny originally because Benny is a vamp and he can't just be left to walk around unchecked. Dean actually says Benny has never let him down like everyone else in his life (not betrayed) as he himself feels he has let the people he cares about down. At least that's what he says to Cas in episode 7. With Dean's rather pessimistic view of things he probably half expected to find out Benny was "draining folks". He just wanted to know for sure.
E
# E 2012-12-10 08:10
Yeah, I realized that on my second watch of the episode; creepy guy was the first kill. Still though, since Dean won't discuss Benny, Sam decided to find out some info on his own. Putting a trace on him isn't too terribly out of line considering where the brother's are at the moment, how they are not talking to each other, not letting each other in.

And sorry, but I disagree with your idea that "letting someone down" and being betrayed are all that different . IMO, I think they are pretty similar, and to Dean they obviously are as that comment was meant to undercut Sam, and it did. (and in front of Martin no less).

You know, it's actually a good think for Dean that Martin was killed. What kind of stories about how he perceived Dean's behavior do you think Martin would have brought back to the general hunter community? Martin seemed completely shocked and really pissed by Dean's attitude regarding the hunt, even bringing John into the discussion to use against Dean. He could have created quite a bit of flack for Dean with other hunters if he began recounting his take on things to all the other hunters out there.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 08:14
Martin being killed was a good thing, and Benny really hadn´t any other chance.
BEcause honestly... even if Benny had let him take his head...

How sure could we be, that he wouldn´t have killed Elisabeth anyways?

Killing Martin was the only way to make sure, Liz stayed safe, since Martin so totally wasn´t above baiting Benny with her blood and toying with her life.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-09 12:32
Quote:
Hi Sofia, Nice review. I agree with most of what you said about the eppie, and I do really, really love Benny. He's a great character. I am not convinced that he is the soft and cuddly prince that some fans think he is though. I think there is a high likelihood that Benny might not turn out to be such a knight in shining armor. I do like him though, he's a great actor and very sympathetic at the moment. I'd love to see something truly ambiguous happen with Benny; something like, he's playing Dean, but he didn't want to or was manipulated himself into doing so and feels bad about it, but has betrayed him anyway. That would be wickedly painful for everyone and probably very satisfying.


There's just two little spots that I didn't agree with; Quote:
And here he is, BFF with a vampire. And Sam has always been the one to give the benefit of the doubt to the monsters he hunts yet he was ready to kill Benny on sight. Talk about your role reversals.
I don't see where Sam has reversed his ideas about Monsters at all he reacted predictably to Kate after all. He just has on Benny, because Benny is in Dean's life under completely mysterious and concealed circumstances. Dean won't discuss Benny, or explain why Benny is important and quite frankly, Dean treats Benny like the red-headed step child, as though he is ashamed of his relationship with him. Why wouldn't Sam be suspicious of that?

Quote:
I was pleasantly surprised by Sam and Dean at the beginning of the episode. When Sam revealed that he had Martin following Benny I was waiting for Dean to blow his top. Putting myself in Dean’s shoes I think I would have felt betrayed, like my brother couldn’t trust my judgement. But Dean didn’t go there. And when Sam explained the situation with the body and that Benny was likely the one behind the killing Dean agreed to check it out. He wasn’t mad, he was matter-of-fact. The whole thing was so level-headed.
I was surprised at how reasonable the brother's were being in that scene and I think Sam was too quite frankly. But in retrospect we now know that Dean could afford to be patient and level headed because he had an ace in the whole in his burner phone with Amelia's information on it. Dean wasn't being patient, he was being calculating and against Sam too, which is just ...wow.

Also, I am getting a little tired of people using the word betrayed all the time especially in relation to Dean. How is any of this in any way a betrayal on Sam's part? Sam disagrees... that's it and as a thinking adult he has every right to IMO. I guess in Dean's world disagreement IS betrayal.

Sam only asked Martin to watch over Benny AFTER there was already a body, at least that was my take on it. There were in fact three bodies implied; the one that caught Sam's eye and made him put a tracker on Benny to begin with, the sleezy old guy from the diner and the young girl we saw dead in the woods. And since Sam feels that he can't turn to Dean in the matter of Benny, he had Martin look into it instead. He was doing his job as a hunter.
Uhm.. Sam put Martin on Benny, before any bodies turned up. Martin called them in, after the first body happened.


And I´m really not sure, Dean was so reasonable, only because he knew, he could call Sam off with a text message.

Dean´s been like this since Sam´s blowout in Southern Comfort. Very careful, not to trigger any of Sam´s usual Blowout responses.

And I think he sees Benny as his responsibility and when he fucks up, Dean´s the one who deals with it.

It was not a typical Dean response though. Actually... uhm... Dean level headed is kinda weird. And Sam thinks the same....

Perhaps Dean´s getting the "Sammy is strange" vibes too?

Dunno....

As for Sam and why he doesn´t trust Benny:
Ruby!


When Dean was gone, there was this girl, who saved Sam. Leveled him out, before he could kill himself.
She helped him tremendously, showed him a way to perhaps get Dean back, and kill Lillith and he trusted her.

Ok, she was a demon, and he knew, Dean wouldn´t be exactly thrilled, so he hid her and kept them apart.
And went to train with her by himself. And ther were secret phonecalls. But she was his friend.. so... Dean accepted her, albeight grudgingly

Let´s see, what does Sam know about Benny.

He saved Dean´s life - check
Sam doesn´t know much about him - check
Dean is defensive when it comes to benny - check
Dean trusts Benny - check
Secret phonecalls - check
Meeting to do things, kill things, whatever - check

Correct me if I´m wrong, but I´m seeing a pattern here and I would be suspicious as hell too.

He even says so himself:

"I don´t know Benny"
"..and you know how well those things turn out for us!"
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-09 17:57
Quote:
As for Sam and why he doesn´t trust Benny:
Ruby!
...
Let´s see, what does Sam know about Benny.

He saved Dean´s life - check
Sam doesn´t know much about him - check
Dean is defensive when it comes to benny - check
Dean trusts Benny - check
Secret phonecalls - check
Meeting to do things, kill things, whatever - check

Correct me if I´m wrong, but I´m seeing a pattern here and I would be suspicious as hell too. 

He even says so himself: 

"I don´t know Benny"
"..and you know how well those things turn out for us!"
I think you're absolutely right as to what Sam's problem is here. The jabs from Dean certainly hurt, but the fact that Dean won't let the subject go is one of the factors contributing to Sam's sense of his brother's lack of objectivity. If it's that Dean needs Benny to be right because he's still pissed at Sam, he may be skating past some of Benny's questionable behavior. Plus, falling prey to Ruby is one of the great defining crises of Sam's life, and every time Dean reminds him of it, he also reminds Sam how easy -- and how painful -- it is to be manipulated by a dark side character for their own ends and how absolutist Dean was about it at the time.

I loved the discussion between Martin, Sam, and Dean. Even if what he is saying is true, Dean sounds like he has bought the biggest, lamest, sorriest series of excuses you could find. It plays rather like, "Yeah, the cops found drugs in Benny's car, but they weren't his. He gave a ride to this guy Desmond from his old gang, and he left them there. Benny doesn't do drugs any more. He swears." On his part, Martin is flailing just trying to understand why there's even a debate. Frigging Winchester nutjobs.
E
# E 2012-12-10 08:17
Yeah, I realized this on my second watch of the episode! My bad. I STILL don't consider it too far outside the box (maybe a leeetle teeny bit) for Sam to do what he did. Dean won't discuss Benny in any way shape or form, and Sam is suspicious so he had Benny tailed.

I think Sam hid Ruby from Dean in part because deep down he knew what he was doing was wrong, and partly because he knew Dean wouldn't approve because Ruby was a demon and Dean's take on monsters and demons was black and white at that time. Dean is hiding Benny for maybe some of the same reasons, but he has no reason to assume that Sam would't have accepted Benny given the right introduction and the right information because Sam has always existed in the grey areas.

So why exactly IS Dean being so secretive about Benny? I think that this may be a bigger question that we don't know much about yet. Perhaps more happened in Purgatory? I am thinking we aren't done with that part of the story quite yet.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 23:30
I agree. Dean has been weird about Benny since minute one. There is clearly some reason for his hiding everything to do with Purgatory from Sam even after Sam found out about Benny. Bitten was actually the perfect opportunity to explain the situation to Sam, but he didn't.

Memories of the situation with Amy would be a bit of a problem for him when he would have explained; but not as much as Sam hiding Ruby until he was caught.

Sam hid Ruby as much because he knew Dean would call him a freak (which he did) as because he knew he was doing something wrong - the two things had equal weight in his mind I would think. However his logic about saving victims was correct, Dean suggested that it was Ruby faking him out and he wasn't rescuing people at all but we know that it DID work because he did it on other occasions. So it was right for the wrong reasons.
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-11 00:11
I think part of the reason that Dean hasn't talked to Sam is because Dean is Dean. But another part of it is that Dean doesn't really trust Sam anymore. As Kelly reasonably pointed out, Dean was extremely hurt by the fact that Sam didn't look for him, and at this point he's withdrawing behind his walls to protect himself. So telling Sam about Benny is divulging things to Sam he doesn't want to tell. Part of him might have been thinking, "Well, why would you care what I did in purgatory, or what I did to get out?"

Of course, that's not fair to Sam, and like Sam's hiding Ruby, made the situation worse. As with SAm hiding Ruby from Dean for fear of his reaction, hiding Benny from Sam in order to avoid a bad reaction became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Dean and Sam are both happy hypocrites--the y each want to be able to keep their secrets, but want full disclosure from their brother.

Sam hid Ruby because he knew what he was doing was wrong. I agree that there is a parallel there as well, because Dean doesn't seem to entirely trust Benny, as much as he said he hasn't let him down. He knows that loyalty to their past relationship (as well as what appears to be actual like) dictates that he let Benny go, but he's still waiting for the other shoe to drop with him as well. Dean doesn't trust anyone, so he knows there's a possibility that Benny is going to go rogue. Of course, Benny is responsible for his own choices and if he does go back to the blood that's on him, not Dean. But that ambivalance makes Dean's feelings even more complicated, which makes him shut down, and round and round we go. Poor boys.
vivian
# vivian 2012-12-11 14:52
Quote:
Dean doesn't trust anyone,
Yes, I think Dean doesn't trust Benny blindly as he wants Sam to believe - he is just being nasty, venting his frustration for Sam "abandoning" him (as he sees it). If he did, he wouldn't have confronted Benny with a ready machete behind his back.

Future Dean didn't trust Present Dean in "The End" episode - hell, he cuffed himself to a post! Can't blame Sam for acting like Dean (LOL!)

And in the same episode ("The End"), Dean called himself a 'dick' - which is consistent with his callous atitude in "Citzen Fang", albeit justified to save both Sam and Benny.
vivian
# vivian 2012-12-11 14:57
By the way, Dean freed himself from the cuffs same way he did in "The End".
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 12:59
Actually, Sam was having Benny tracked even before there was a death.
E
# E 2012-12-09 21:02
Yeah, I think I am remembering that part wrong. Was the creepy gumbo shack guy killed in the cold start?

Still, since he couldn't talk to Dean about Benny, Sam was still doing his job as a hunter in the way he thought was best. If any other hunter had gotten wind of a vamp kill in Louisiana there would have been no discussion or tracking or anything, just one dead Benny.
lala2
# lala2 2012-12-09 21:58
Sam told Dean that Martin had been released and had asked for work so he put him on Benny's trail. At the time Sam did that, Benny hadn't done anything. He just asked Martin to watch him and then call him if anything funny happened.

I think Martin said he had been watching Benny for two weeks or so and saw nothing unusual until that evening when Benny turned the corner and a dead body was there.
Hades
# Hades 2012-12-10 07:22
'I loved the discussion between Martin, Sam, and Dean. Even if what he is saying is true, Dean sounds like he has bought the biggest, lamest, sorriest series of excuses you could find. It plays rather like, "Yeah, the cops found drugs in Benny's car, but they weren't his. He gave a ride to this guy Desmond from his old gang, and he left them there. Benny doesn't do drugs any more. He swears." On his part, Martin is flailing just trying to understand why there's even a debate. Frigging Winchester nutjobs.

which totally goes in line with what Jeremy Carver said in relation to this episode, he said Martin would be thrown in to this situation that he just couldnt comprehend, Dean trusting a monster and brothers fighting over whether he needed to be put down or not. For a normal run of the mill hunter that just would not have made sense. Martin would essentially be the sainest one out of the lot of them.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-11 00:08
Sam put Martin to watch Benny, he was in the Shack when the creepy guy was asking about Elizabeth. He saw him leave and Benny followed him, then he tripped over the body.

Martin was misled by the fact that he thought Benny might be protecting Elizabeth and also because the body was there. But there are a couple of issues with this:

1) If Benny was a vampire out hunting then Martin would have caught him draining the victim. If Martin had been completely rational it he would have realized there was something wrong with the picture of the body all alone immediately after the kill.

2) The sound from the attack is of a blade - a vampire wouldn't need to use a blade. Though often they don't attack until there is a cut so maybe? But it seems odd.

There's a point actually if a vampire attacks a human and cuts their throat (but doesn't feed off them) because they think they are going to harm someone else does that make them fair game for a hunter or not?

So there are two options:

Either Benny was set up the way he said. In which case Sam and Dean both look good - Sam because setting Martin to watch him meant they had a jump start on other vampire hunters and perhaps saved Benny's life and Dean because he was right about Benny.

or

Benny set up Martin to believe he was guilty to fool Sam and Dean into believing he is a good guy (as a result of the other events in the episode). If that is the case they are both going to come out of this looking bad, Sam for not using a more reliable witness and Dean for placing too much trust in a monster.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 23:32
And Dean hunted Amy personally with every intent of killing her and none of seeing if she was going to do anything else wrong.
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-11 00:02
After murdering four people with no remorse or consideration for the pain she'd caused their families, how much more wrong did she need to do? Mileage varies, but I've never understood that line of reasoning--you can't go to court and say, "Well, what about all the days I didn't murder a stranger and harvest their brains?" Pretty much the days you did are the only ones that count.

I never thought that killing Amy was personal for Dean. She was a monster who had slaughtered humans, and Dean's been fairly consistent in thinking that monsters shouldn't be allowed to do that (bearing in mind that the PTB have given both Dean and Sam moments of character aberrations to fit a storyline). She was a murderer and a danger to humans as she showed no sign that she would be hesitant to kill again if she felt justified, so Dean made sure she wouldn't. I don't think it was much more complicated than that. My opinion only, of course.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-11 00:14
Fair enough, I withdraw my argument.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-09 18:00
Quote:
Also, I am getting a little tired of people using the word betrayed all the time especially in relation to Dean. How is any of this in any way a betrayal on Sam's part? Sam disagrees... that's it and as a thinking adult he has every right to IMO. I guess in Dean's world disagreement IS betrayal.
While Dean is channeling the Purgatory mindset, as he is now, that is true. The complete commitment to one another required for survival in Purgatory is still affecting his thinking. He's more committed to his comrade in arms there than he is to his comrades in the real world. And on that note, I've been watching with some bemusement as one reviewer after another and one poster after another proclaims Martin's death as "deserved" because he went up against Benny. Yes, he was warned, and yes, he was tempting fate, but hunters face off against creatures that are stronger, nastier, and more badass than they are every day. As Sam said, "When have we ever done anything smart?" Martin was due a tremendous ass-kicking for menacing a civilian, but does it not give more people pause that he ended up dead on the floor with his throat ripped out? Wasn't he the Winchesters' friend and colleague? Isn't it odd that Dean, who's normally all about the guilt and who played a role in leaving him isolated, marks his passing with nothing more than, "he had it coming"? I think the writer meant to convey something about the skewedness of Dean's current thinking, not validate Martin's death, and I wonder whether the charismatic monsters should really get a pass.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-09 22:50
I agree that Purgatory really brought this out in Dean, but he was also raised by John and there was a whole lot of if you're not for me, you are against me. But the constant fight in Purgatory made that even more true for Dean.

Yes, I found Dean saying Martin deserved it to be sad. He had been a friend. He had been a good enough hunter to see there was something supernatural in the institution. He actually had the good judgement to realize when hunting was making him unstable and get himself institutionaliz ed before he hurt himself or somebody else.

Martin did what most if not all other hunters would do. He found a vampire and took it out. He shouldn't have involved Liz, but Sam left him and Dean had made it clear that he wasn't taking out Benny. So Martin did what hunters do and he used the only card he had to play to try and take what he believed was a killer vampire out. Whether or not Sam should have trusted Dean, and I don't think Sam was wrong to not trust Dean, Martin had no reason to just take Dean's word over what he saw with his own two eyes, Benny following victim 1 and finding him dead only minutes after Benny followed him off the path. The one person I can't blame for trusting his own judgement is Martin. He was trying to save a town from a vampire.
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-09 23:06
I agree that Martin's fate is ultimately a sad thing. I'm not sure it's what he deserved necessarily, but it's very much (in my opinion) the result of his own choices. But Dean and Sam, to me, have been fairly consistent on finding hunters who use people as bait without their knowledge/conse nt as distasteful, in my opinion. I don't think that they nor John nor Bobby would have tied up an innocent human and used them as a hostage against a monster, so I can't agree that Martin did what every hunter would do. So I don't think it's the fact that he went against Dean's wishes or that he wanted to kill a vampire that led to the lack of sympathy for him--it's the fact that he terrorized and put an innocent human in danger in order to achieve his means. That's not something I can get behind, and I'm fine if Dean holds that against him.

Honestly, I found the Martin here widely different from the character we met in S5. The cautious, genial man in the asylum didn't really match up with the loose cannon here in my eyes. But if Martin is to be touted as a friend to the Winchesters that they should have had more consideration for, shouldn't he by that turn have had more consideration for Dean's judgment? Would it have hurt him to investigate more? I don't think it would have, but I think the Martin here was anxious to get back in the game, anxious to prove himself as still able to be a good hunter, and he'd made up his mind. But his actions against Elizabeth, to me, can't be defended, and in show's past history that was enough to earn him a death sentence (you know, if being an associate of the Winchesters wasn't enough to do that already).
E
# E 2012-12-10 08:35
Ah, little michael in "Something Wicked?" Bait.

Rebecca in "Skin?" Bait.

The little helpless shape shifter baby in "Two and a Half Men?" Bait.

All the helpless, innocent human beings held captive by the demons inside them, whose body was being tortured and caused tremendous pain for the knowledge the demon possessed? Bait.
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-10 18:59
Michael in Something Wicked was well aware of the plan and consented to being bait. I never said that the boys didn't use bait, I said they didn't use innocents without their knowledge and against their will. Michael still fits that standard.

When did the boys use Rebecca as bait in Skin? They hunted for a monster in the sewers. Dean got caught, Sam got caught, and then Dean-shifter went after Rebecca. When the police caught them later, Sam and Dean separated. Dean went back to the lair and found Rebecca and Sam went to lay low with Rebecca, not knowing she was the shifter. When did they use her as bait?

But Dean didn't know that the baby in Two and a Half Men was bait for an alpha, did he? The Campbells and robo-Sam did, and they were narratively villainous in S6. That, to me, proves the point that canon shows that this type of behavior is generally considered wrong.

Yes, the possessed people are generally hostages, but the Winchesters didn't make them hostages. Again, demons are villainous, and their possession of others is generally considered wrong.

So none of this changes my view that show canon judges using civilians as hostages or bait without their knowledge or consent is evil and generally punished by death. YMMV, obviously.
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 23:36
I agree with you on two of those but they really shouldn't have used Michael as bait. He was a child, and they had to talk him into it, that was a bad decision. But it wasn't something they then decided was precedent for other hunts.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-10 16:20
Quote:
I agree that Martin's fate is ultimately a sad thing. I'm not sure it's what he deserved necessarily, but it's very much (in my opinion) the result of his own choices.
Probably true any time a hunter dies. If Dean hadn't bought Benny's story when he confronted him all alone in the woods, and he'd taken him on and been killed, that would be result of Dean's choices, too.

Quote:
I don't think that they nor John nor Bobby would have tied up an innocent human and used them as a hostage against a monster, so I can't agree that Martin did what every hunter would do.
Bobby probably not, but John I'm not so sure. In any case, I don't think that Martin's actions were supposed to be right, but the question is, was his fate proportionate? Should Benny's actions be disregarded because he's interesting or likable?

Quote:
So I don't think it's the fact that he went against Dean's wishes or that he wanted to kill a vampire that led to the lack of sympathy for him--it's the fact that he terrorized and put an innocent human in danger in order to achieve his means. That's not something I can get behind, and I'm fine if Dean holds that against him.
Martin was wrong, so I'm fine too if Dean holds it against him, but that's not quite the same thing as shrugging off his killing. What happened to the eternally guilt-ridden Dean who feels responsible for everyone? Isn't the writer asking us to take notice of this?

Quote:
But if Martin is to be touted as a friend to the Winchesters that they should have had more consideration for, shouldn't he by that turn have had more consideration for Dean's judgment? Would it have hurt him to investigate more?
Martin did go along with letting Dean have a couple hours to investigate even though he didn't want to at all. Dean came back with what sounded like (and for all we really know, actually was) a cock-and-bull story. And now another person was dead. It wasn't out of line for him to think he'd paid due consideration to Dean's judgment.

Quote:
But his actions against Elizabeth, to me, can't be defended, and in show's past history that was enough to earn him a death sentence (you know, if being an associate of the Winchesters wasn't enough to do that already).
The series has shown us that people who do dumb stuff often get killed. However, we don't give the death penalty to mentally disturbed people, and Martin did not kill Elizabeth and did not intend to. It was less than what Travis intended versus the rugaru's pregnant wife, and the brothers did not say that Travis had it coming and let Jack escape.
Fluffy2107
# Fluffy2107 2012-12-10 16:38
I think Benny's only option had been to kill Martin.
He already had used Liz to bait him.
Not only her person, but he had deliberately cut her, to make Benny lose control.
And he might just as well have killed her, after taking Bennys head.
What Benny was doing here, was sacrificing his shot at humanity, to save his great-granddaughter.
He gave Martin every option out and in the end, he chose to save the only innocent person.
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-10 19:13
Probably true any time a hunter dies. If Dean hadn't bought Benny's story when he confronted him all alone in the woods, and he'd taken him on and been killed, that would be result of Dean's choices, too.

Yes, I'd certainly agree that if Dean had taken on Benny and died as a result, it would have been his choice.


Bobby probably not, but John I'm not so sure. In any case, I don't think that Martin's actions were supposed to be right, but the question is, was his fate proportionate? Should Benny's actions be disregarded because he's interesting or likable?

I think there's a wide difference between Benny murdering a hunter in cold blood and Benny defending his family from someone who clearly had no compunction about causing her harm or using her to kill someone else, even if Benny is a monster. Show canon has punished hunters for this transgression before, with Travis in 4.4. Self-defense and protection of family is generally considered a valid defense. Was Dean acting out of proportion for what he did against Gordon in 2.3? After all, the cut he put on Sam wasn't that bad, right?

Martin was wrong, so I'm fine too if Dean holds it against him, but that's not quite the same thing as shrugging off his killing. What happened to the eternally guilt-ridden Dean who feels responsible for everyone? Isn't the writer asking us to take notice of this?

I think purgatory has been freeing Dean from some of his guilt issues this season, and I can't say that's a bad thing necessarily. We saw this in 7.2, when Dean was willing to kill Crowley while he was possessing Mrs. Tran for the greater good, even though she was someone they knew. In this case, Dean wasn't even the one who brought Martin in, so he's not going to feel the same responsibility as he might have if he had been. But Dean is very consistent on people being dead to him, so to speak, when they act against family (see Gordon, 2.3). So to me, it still works as IC for Dean. YMMV.

Martin did go along with letting Dean have a couple hours to investigate even though he didn't want to at all. Dean came back with what sounded like (and for all we really know, actually was) a cock-and-bull story. And now another person was dead. It wasn't out of line for him to think he'd paid due consideration to Dean's judgment.

You make a good point there in saying that Martin did give Dean a few hours out of consideration. I'll concede there. I"m not sure why we would think that Benny was lying at this point, though.

The series has shown us that people who do dumb stuff often get killed. However, we don't give the death penalty to mentally disturbed people, and Martin did not kill Elizabeth and did not intend to. It was less than what Travis intended versus the rugaru's pregnant wife, and the brothers did not say that Travis had it coming and let Jack escape.

Well, either Martin was too mentally disturbed to be hunting and he never should have been called in, or else he wasn't mentally disturbed enough for it to hinder him and he's responsible for his own actions. To me, show can't have it both ways, and I don't know that they're really trying to. To me, show is being entirely consistent on their view of people who hurt innocents for expediency or leverage in a hunt. Again, to me the difference is that Travis hadn't acted against Dean or Sam, so it wasn't personal, and Sam didn't kill Jack because of Travis--he was still trying to talk to him until he realized Dean was in danger. Again, I really don't see a big inconsistency. YMMV, obviously.

**I'll be shocked if I did the quote thing right. My apologies if not.

Quote:
I don't think that they nor John nor Bobby would have tied up an innocent human and used them as a hostage against a monster, so I can't agree that Martin did what every hunter would do.
Bobby probably not, but John I'm not so sure. In any case, I don't think that Martin's actions were supposed to be right, but the question is, was his fate proportionate? Should Benny's actions be disregarded because he's interesting or likable?

Quote:
So I don't think it's the fact that he went against Dean's wishes or that he wanted to kill a vampire that led to the lack of sympathy for him--it's the fact that he terrorized and put an innocent human in danger in order to achieve his means. That's not something I can get behind, and I'm fine if Dean holds that against him.
Martin was wrong, so I'm fine too if Dean holds it against him, but that's not quite the same thing as shrugging off his killing. What happened to the eternally guilt-ridden Dean who feels responsible for everyone? Isn't the writer asking us to take notice of this?

Quote:
But if Martin is to be touted as a friend to the Winchesters that they should have had more consideration for, shouldn't he by that turn have had more consideration for Dean's judgment? Would it have hurt him to investigate more?
Martin did go along with letting Dean have a couple hours to investigate even though he didn't want to at all. Dean came back with what sounded like (and for all we really know, actually was) a cock-and-bull story. And now another person was dead. It wasn't out of line for him to think he'd paid due consideration to Dean's judgment.

Quote:
But his actions against Elizabeth, to me, can't be defended, and in show's past history that was enough to earn him a death sentence (you know, if being an associate of the Winchesters wasn't enough to do that already).
The series has shown us that people who do dumb stuff often get killed. However, we don't give the death penalty to mentally disturbed people, and Martin did not kill Elizabeth and did not intend to. It was less than what Travis intended versus the rugaru's pregnant wife, and the brothers did not say that Travis had it coming and let Jack escape.
emmau
# emmau 2012-12-10 19:13
Rats.
E
# E 2012-12-10 22:37
Don't you mean let Jack's wife escape? Sam fried Jack. They let Jack's wife escape but they never learned if she was pregnant. I always did wonder what they would have done had they known she was carrying another rugaru.
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-11 11:06
Bobby, probably not. I personally have believed since season one that John was probably using Sam and Dean as bait for the Striga in Something Wicked. Leaving 2 brothers alone and seemingly unprotected in an area where a monster that kills siblings to feed always felt like John setting them up. I think John believed the Striga wouldn't realize that Dean was armed and was going to sneak in while both boys were there and Dean would have handled it, plus I think John was keeping watch just in case, but I will always suspect that in the end, John set Sam and Dean as bait.
nappi815
# nappi815 2012-12-09 17:28
i watched sotf last night and something really made me think and with what i've been watching so far this season, i really think angels are manipulating everyone on the board.

the end of the eppy cas and dean are in the middle of a conversation and poof...cas is gone.
when cas meets up with dean in purgatory he comes up with an off the wall excuse that he left dean to protect him from levis. not buying it.

i dont even think cas has been in purgatory this whole time. i think naomi popped cas out of purgatory, gave him whatever instructions he gave him and planted that notion in his head that he left dean to keep him safe.

why do i think this? because once dean was alone, conveniently benny pops on the scene.

benny who:

1. admits to cas he lies, he doesn't get lied to.
2. is standing next to a friend of his, kills this friend and then tells dean he's his friend now....red flag anyone?
3. benny conveniently knows by "they" where the portal is to get out of purgatory.
4. saves cas...of course he has to save cas, the angels need cas and he was about to get wasted. benny was to protect cas and dean.
5. benny does everything right in order to gain dean's trust.
why? out of the goodness of his vampire heart...not likely, but because benny's reward for gaining dean's trust was getting out of purgatory.
6. benny constantly calls dean "brother" instead of dean. i feel like he's working on him subliminally. like when commercials do it so you buy their product. i feel like benny is trying to get dean to buy into him.
7. benny gives dean a bs story about black market blood in blood brother and then admits to him that he's killed before.

it is my personal opinion that benny is under orders from a power way stronger than him.

i also think that dean isn't alright since he came out of purgatory.

it's not only his anger issues that concern me.
what concerns me most about dean is that post purgatory he hasn't once asked the question who told benny about the portal. he also hasn't been able to consider the notion that benny used him just to get out of purgatory. something which i think sam has considered by the way. after all, he has experienced that betrayal. if anyone knows that it's possible it's sam.

now i'm not sure if it's because he allowed a vamp inside his body.

i'm not sure if the angels messed with dean.

maybe purgatory itself just did something to dean.

what i do feel is this in regards to dean and his fangirl relationship with benny. i'm not sure that dean believes in it as much as he's claiming to be honest.

dean keeps harping on the fact that benny hasn't let him down. what i wonder though is if he really believes that or does he keep saying it to convince himself.

i can't help but agree with some others when they point out that if dean truly feels that benny is indeed the cat's meow, then why keep him a secret in the first place? there really would be no need to.

i think he kept benny from sam for the exact reason that happened... he was afraid that sam wouldn't trust him. why would dean be afraid of that? because sam might be correct about benny? that his view askew regarding benny would be shattered?

i just can't help but think that dean's high praises of benny came soon after dean found out that sam supposedly didn't look for him. dean presumed that it was because of a girl. so from dean's point of view, , sam abandoned him for a girl. but i don't believe dean's pov is correct. he knows nothing of what sam has done that year and he's been unwilling to ask. perhaps he's too angry right now...or maybe subconsiously he's afraid to ask because he'll get the truth about sam's time during dean's soujourn in purgatory. that sam didn't abandon him. if dean learns that truth, then dean is responsible for letting a vampire loose on society. he's responsible for taking his word without question. and now a hunter is dead. if benny has been lying to dean, like i believe he has been, then i can't imagine the guilt dean will feel.

jmo of course
eilf
# eilf 2012-12-10 00:22
I like all the points you put forward! Your theory definitely seems to pull together a lot of threads that we don't have answers to yet. My only alteration would be that if Cas can be manipulated then Benny could too. It isn't actually essential that Benny be the bad guy in your scenario, just a pawn, same as everyone else.

Having said that it would be interesting to see what level of guilt Dean would feel about giving him the benefit of the doubt if he ultimately turned out to be wrong. Also how that would color his attitude towards Sam and Ruby (which is a resentment he really needs to let go of at this stage, regardless).
percysowner
# percysowner 2012-12-10 00:55
The fact that Dean has never forgiven Sam for Ruby, makes me believe that the only way he will forgive or at least understand Sam's decision is if Dean makes a similar mistake. Plua the narrative that Dean and only Dean can be right about monsters bothers me. Yes, Sam trusted Lenore, but Dean had to ratify that decision.

Benny seems to be a good guy and maybe that is where they are going, but it again makes Dean right and Sam wrong and that kind of inequality doesn't work in a partnership. If Sam and Dean are to work as partners, Sam needs to have as much credibility as Dean and that can only happen if Dean can understand how a monster can take you in. Cas was supposed to do that, but each time it got mitigated. Cas switched allegiances in season four. Cas was taken over by the Purgatory souls in season seven. Fandom doesn't seem to care that Cas killed his best friend and brother, Balthazar before he was taken over because he was trying to stop Raphael. Cas got forgiven by Sam almost immediately and by Dean pretty quickly, more quickly than he has forgiven Sam, obviously.

Benny may not be the one to show Dean that Sam was tricked and wasn't betraying Dean, but trying to save the world in the completely wrong way. But at some time Dean has to understand why Sam turned to a monster, or he will never really be able to trust Sam as a partner. They both deserve more than that.
RMF
# RMF 2012-12-10 17:49
I agree that there is little reason to do this arc if the outcome is merely that Dean is a good judge of character, which is the status quo. Some would argue that Dean getting taken in would be a retread of the Ruby storyline. I think the difference would be that in this case, there is no specific intent to corrupt Dean, but the corrupting influence is there anyway. Dean wants so badly for someone to be that diehard, rock-solid, reliable comrade that it's eroding his judgment. It also leaves both Benny and Sam little room to follow their own desires or to have a breaking point without their "failing" Dean.
Sylvie
# Sylvie 2012-12-10 09:16
Great review Sofia, I know exactly what you mean about the gushing for this episode. I absolutely loved it. And I think I'm falling for Benny! :oops: I really like Ty Olsson, he's playing this role to perfection. A vampire with a heart, but still a pretty damn dangerous one, right Martin? Never underestimate a killing machine. And I really like that Dean told Benny to watch out for Sam, because he knows how bloody dangerous his brother is. As I've said above, never underestimate a killing machine, and the Winchesters certainly qualify for that moniker.

For all the awesomeness of this episode, there was so much sadness, it was unbearable. When Dean told Sam that he thought Benny was the only one that hadn't let him down I almost cried when I saw Sam's face just literally fall. :cry: Jared does hurt so well. And Dean sending that text message knowing how Sam would react. I know he wanted him out of the way for both his and Benny's sake, but that was pretty callous on his part. Sometimes it only takes a little thing in a family to cause so much dissention, and this was a pretty major one. I'm praying to Chuck this Christmas that when we come back in January, our boys will finally have that conversation we all have been waiting years on. Please, please, ad infinitum! ;-)
lkeke35
# lkeke35 2012-12-15 12:50
I too have fallen in love with Benny. Ty Olsen is wonderful and I hope they keep his character around for a while. I would not be averse to him becoming a part of the Winchester Support Group like Cas and Garth, (while still retaining some of his character's ambiguity.)

I don't think that Dean has told Sam much of anything about Purgatory ,that said I still think that Sam's beef with Benny is really about Dean. The only real emotions I've been able to glean from Sam this season is resignation, fatigue, guilt, anger at Benny and a new found interest in humnaity which is really fuuny when you consider that he didn't do anything for anyone but himself for a year. I think he still feels trememdous guilt about his year off to live a normal life and this new gung ho attitude about saving people is his attempt to make up for it and convince Dean that he's back in the game and has his back. Dean is not buying it and neither am I.

I think Sam needs more time off to get his head right. I still don't think he gave himself enough time after Dean disappeared. He needs to find out who he is and what he really wants out of life and he's not going to do that if he keep attaching himself to people just because he's alone and/or in pain. He jumped ritght into a relationship with someone just as damaged as he was. He just latched onto any port in a storm, which is something he's done before whenever he and Dean have been apart (Jess, Ruby). He needs more alone time or something.

What I'm getting from Sam is that he wants a relationship with his brother, he really does, but is too beset by his own emotional fatigue and damage to be able to properly do this. Dean can't either. He's too damaged and self-focused from his time in Purg. , although he's making baby steps at least.
Daisymae
# Daisymae 2012-12-18 11:24
What makes a monster? Is it just being a monster or does it depend on being a killer? Vampires are monsters, but if they don't kill they aren't a threat. Do they still deserve to die?