Thursday, 04 February 2010 20:30 | Written by 
Here it is, episode night! It's also a mytharc episode, so bring on the apocalypse. It's been a while. I've already seen this episode, (albeit on a rough cut with no visual effects) so I'm taking bets you'll like it. Or love it. Or will find its "jaw hits the floor awesome." Oh heck, someone always finds a way to complain, so that too. Let me and everyone else know what your reaction is!
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BTW, the MAJOR character death. It wasn't Anna. Sure, she's dead, but she's not a MAJOR character either. You people have to read between the lines with spoilers!
Finally got to see Michael…not surprised he was sooooo nice to Dean…and of course, we get the ‘you are fated’ routine. Remember angels are dicks! Hope Dean remembers that too!Wasn't surprised when a supernatural entity came to the boys help...I just thought it would be Lucifer.
Dean and Sam contemplating the possibility of saying yes, was disturbing, but of course it was supposed to be. Have too many episodes left to decide anything yet.
Loved Dean’s dreams this time. So much more like our Dean. Seems things are turning around finally.
As for Cas, I really didn’t think it was realistic for the boys just accept his turning Anna in so easily. I think a little bit more should have been said to him about it. And was surprised to see Dean not more open to Anna. She has never given him and reason to think ill of her before, quite the contray actually.
On a side note: I thought it took an awfully long time for Sam to draw that sign.....but then at least he used the right hand when he slammed it!
Really a lot more in there, need a re-watch to digest it all. Can’t say I haven’t thought of the Cain and Abel story before….and who’s blood line was it, John’s, Mary’s or both? Not that it maters…just like to get some history on John. Off to the re-watch.
Sablegreen, Re: the bloodline, I'm thinking John, since he was Michael's vessel not Mary
What's interesting is its Sam's bloodline too, so that's why he's perfect for Lucifer. I'm not sure Sam's demon blood plays a role at all regarding the vessels. So we get an answer to Ruby's "It always had to be you." What was revealed is huge.
I'm glad for the return of mytharc, though. I realized the reason I was getting so antsy for the heavier stuff is because this is my first season watching live, so if they had had two lighter episodes in another season, no problem. I was watching on DVD. Now, though, the wait is agony!
But in all seriousness this was one amazing episode. It not only touched on so many unanswered questions about the past but also about Angels, the Winchesters' fate. everything, although I'm pretty sure theres a whole new set of new questions that need answers. I seriously need to watch this again though. I couldn't get over the fact that Micheal showed face and not only spoke to Dean but possessed John. Major mindrape.
I was also upset that Anna while her intentions were for good... she went about it the wrong way. I so hate her and was crying happy tears when Micheal smites her ass.
I have to say the whole blood line thing was something I wasn't expecting but I can totally see how YED's blood, and the constant "It always had to be you" played in with Sam. Demon/Angel (well special blood for angel vessels) allows Sam to be Lucifer's true vessel. Hard to explain... but my god that's amazing writing.
And aw man we can't forget Cas admitting Sam is his friend. They came a long way from the 'boy with demon blood'. Proud Cas.
Great episode but I'm a little confused about something. I was hoping someone might explain.
My DVR is broken so I can't rewatch right now. As a result, I may be completely wrong about this, but it seemed to me Michael said Sam and Dean were decendents of Cain and Abel.
I see two issues with this: One) You could only be a decendent of one or the other, not both. Two) I might be wrong about this, I'm not really religious, but I thought in Christian tradition Noah's great flood wiped out everyone that wasn't on the ark and the only people on the ark were Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives. If I'm correct, that means the blood line was narrowed at that point. Everyone is a decendent of Noah and therefore a decendent of whomever he is a decendent of. As a result, if Sam and Dean were decendent of Cain or Abel, everyone else in the world would be as well. Right?
I'm a little confused. Anyone want to correct me/explain?
My first tear was Cass calling Sam his friend... it was touching. Really the only way to describe it, and I think that's because of how far along Cassy has come. And the boys so very rarely have someone that calls them 'friend'. I'm an emotional git, I know.
I think this is one of the first episodes I've watched in a while where I couldn't find a single thing to complain about. I am so please and proud of Kripke and Co. Really, they did an amazing job with this one.
There is so much to discuss about just this episode that it would take far too long and I'm still reeling, but 'The Song Remains the Same' definitely has made it to the very top of my favorite episodes list.
And that's really all I can say.
But John. Nothing. I wonder if we'll finally start to get some history on the Winchester line?
I don't know about ya'll but I think the two best scenes were when Sam told his Dad that he understood why John did the things he did and Deans chat to Michael. I'm so glad they finally brought Michael on the show.
I got up an hour earlier to watch the episode, because I couldn’t wait till tonight. I can’t believe where this is going…. I still have to sort out my thoughts, as I’m pretty much overwhelmed, and I can hardly type with tears in my eyes. How can the writers dare to give us an episode so full in emotional moments… how are we supposed to take this?
We always thought the writers love to torture the characters – oh, no, they love to do it do us!
Let me try to find some coherent thought… Do I need to?
That major character death thing – from the get-go it was clear that Anna was not going to survive this episode. So I actually began to fear that someone else had to die to make it ‘major’, and for a moment I considered it to be Sam, but dismissed that immediately, because that simply couldn’t be… And then it happened. My tea cup crashed to the floor and I barely wiped it up.
My God, I’ll be going insane till the end of this season…
There are countless moments I need to re-watch again and again… Sam being able to tell his dad that he loves him and forgives him (and it doesn’t really matter that YoungJohn doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about – Sam just can tell it to John’s face), what a heartbreaking minute.
Dean telling Mary the whole story… I don’t have kids yet… trying to imagine that my son (and I so hope to have a son one day… please, ye Gods…) came up to me and told me that kind of story – who would not go crazy right away?
Sam getting stabbed by Anna… I used to like her, understand her…. But she probably watched too much of Terminator…
Michael trying to not be a dick (is he?)
The happy, now glamoured, couple expecting their first child…. And Mary’s heartbreaking ‘Angels are watching over you’
Personally, the idea of destiny sometimes scares the hell out of me. I’ve always rooting for team Free Will… I still am… This is leading to a big finale already… just thinking what the creators might cook up is terrifying and fascinating. Is there any better show on the planet?
I need to go now, put on my business face and pretend that I got a cold (how else am I to explain that I’ve been crying and my eyes are puffy?)… Okay, one thing you learn in drama school – the show must go on…
I’ll get back later, for me it will be night, for you afternoon… and then see what’s been going on here. As I’ll be on a business trip over the weekend, I need to join in for a little while at least… Who else would understand what this show can do to us if not you, the compassionate fans that gather on this site? Gosh, so many of my own memories with my parents came up… I’d love a drink… But I guess some coffee will have to suffice…
Forgive any typos, I was in a hurry typing this down…
Love, Jas
Actually, I loved everything until Michael started talking and then things just fell through the floor. Seriously, that was Michael: a season one version of Dean with extra powers and the "daddy's blunt little instrument" side of him magnifed by a million? This is who the angels have been (and probably will continue to) trying to convince Dean say yes to. :|
I mean, I loved all the actors performances, and was in tears at the Dean/Mary, Sam/John scenes. Those were just beautifully written. And I LOVED the Cas and Anna scene at the beginning. I think I fell in love with Cas a little more during this episode - he's sacrificed so much for the Winchesters and continues to do so.
But in the end this episode was just a real downer for me. I'm so fond of free will and the idea that one's choices matter, and yet I haven't seen any evidence that having free will and making good choices really makes much of a difference in the long run. This just hammers another nail into the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" column for me, with it not mattering whether it's the angels who triumph or Lucifer, as it's the same difference. *sigh* (And I know humanity defeats all is another option, but I can't see any realistic way of making this option believably possible.)
also jensen and jared hit it out of the park with their acting in this ep. and sams expression when he first sees his mother is classic! looked like a stray dog giving the puppy dog eyes cause its stuck in the rain and whants to come inside. amd finnally seeing michael was really exciting i had been waiting to see him all season. so farr this season is really good but i do hope we have stopped most of the standalones for the timebeing.
Also - liar! Anna, the boys weren't trying to kill Uriel she actually does/did/whatever ... sneaky. I have to admit that i was a little confused about Anna breaking out, did she break out? Was she let out but went off on her own mission or was that the angels plan all along because it doesn't seem like it should be.
Loved Sam's moment with his father - just so nice to see actually get to say those things and to see John before he lost Mary (still so subborn i see). Also Mary and her boys even though she's not sure she believes them when they tell her to leave John so that they won't be born she still fights for her boys.
Finally who didn't love the family moment where they were all in the car, mom and dad in the front the boys in the back - it was just awesome -awkward family trip indeed. I'm so watching this again when i get back from work!
*is reduced to a sappy mess of tears while trying to keep the keyboard dry*
DAMN YOU KRIPKE!!!
:cry:: :cry:: :cry::
I'm kidding! Excellent performances all around (definitely some classic John beginning to emerge in the young version), glad to see that the supposed best and brightest of the angels (not literally, Morning Star, so relax) is as much of a dick as the rest (seriously, Cas is proving to be so superior to the rest. Why? He's got that burgeoning humanity).
Sam finally being able to tell John how he feels about him. Better early than never, no?
I do have to second a bit what Jas and immie_8 said. I'm as much of a fan of Free Will® as I am of the Browns and Cavs, so I would love to see *that* prove to be the final nail in the coffin (recaging?) of Lucifer, instead of some destiny bullshit guided by the biggest gang of narcissists the universe has ever seen (if I was a religious dude, I wouldn't pray to this gang of jokers), but given how much the writers love to psychologically torture the brothers, that ain't gonna happen.
The hypothetical Sam posed to Dean is beyond huge, for it helps explain to Dean *why* Sam did what he did in season four. What if the only way to help, the only way to express love for each other, for family, for humanity, IS to say yes?
My question on the episode, however, involves Michael's explaination of using John as his meatsuit. He stated that the bloodline from Cain & Able to the Winchesters was needed for him to use John. Does that imply that Mark, who is Lucifer's meatsuit, shares the same bloodline and is therefore related to Sam? What's your take on that?
This ep was amazing! I definitely need to rewatch because I'm sure there are details I've missed. Here are the things that stood out for me:
1. Yay, Cas considers Sam a friend. It was great how they showed Cas considering Anna's argument before turning her down. He has changed.
2. I loved the interactions between Sam and Dean and Mary and John. They were touching and full of awesome.
3. John angry with Mary was perfect. I can only imagine this is how he felt when he found out later after her death, which, you know, I'm assuming he does find out because this is John.
4. When Michael showed up I wanted to stand up and cheer. I was hoping he wouldn't be such a d@#k but it wasn't surprising. He's so condescending toward humans. If angels hate humans so much, why exactly was Lucifer the only to rebel?
5. For me the big scene was the answering of a question that has been bugging me ever since we found Mary was a hunter. Why didn't Mary react to the flickering lights when Azazel first came for Sammy. I mean, that's Supernatural 101 there. Michael erasing her memories answered that question perfectly. This is why I love this show. They always seem to tie those little loose threads right into the plot so seemlessly.
6. Cas' reaction when he showed back into the present was interesting. Was his surprise that he was able to bring himself back? Or was it because someone interceded to get him back?
And finally, Team Free Will for the win!!!
It’s all so sad, what this family has had to endure.
This episode certainly left a lot of questions and things to ponder.
It’s one thing to take a life or resurrect a life once it has existed.
But what if someone was never born, can that destiny be played with.
From my understanding the deal being made with Azazel was the client(victim) had 10 years before Azazel would come and collect. His only mission was to feed demon blood to any child that was exactly 6 months old. So he could only target any child that would be turning six months after the 10year period was over.
So if Mary and John only had Dean and never had Sam, would they not of been ok?
If there was no child fitting the criteria, would Azazel of even bothered with them.
Or would he still felt he had to collect something from the deal. Would he of taken back his gift of life to John or sent the Hellhounds after Mary.
Is our whole existence based on Fate or Destiny?
Was Michael telling the truth? Is free will just a delusion?
If fate is the true ticket, then what’s the point of it all?
I’ll stand by Dean – Team Free Will
P.S. I thought for sure that Anna was going to tell Dean that Castiel had let Sam out of the panic room.
2. Wouldn't the rest of humanity descended from Cain and Abel as well??? (I'm not thinking about Noah at this point, I'm already getting a headache hahah)
3. Cas is friends with Sam! That made me squee like a 12 year old fangirl
4. Cas is awesome.
5. Micheal is awesome. In the dick-with-wings way of course, but still awesome.
6. Poppa and Momma Winchester are AMAZING. I love them to bits. Every scene was pure gold and made me want to bawl.
7. I loved loved loved the way Micheal toasted Anna. It looked incredible..major kudos to the effects team.
8. I really want to jump through the screen and give those boys major squishy hugs.
9. I am absolutely in LOVE with Dean's line at the end. "Team Free Will..and ex blood junkie, a drop out with six dollars to his name, and Mr. Comatose over there." That's going down in my personal hall of fame.
10. Free will vs destiny...oh I'm not touching this one. Maybe I should bring it up with some of my theology lecturers..
11. The whole scene at the end was great. The boys drinking together..and they seemed more at ease with each other than they have been since I don't even remember when.
12. Sam's moment with John...sigh. I'm so glad the boy got to get some of that stuff off his chest.
13. Weakened Cas pleased my inner sadistic fangirl very much. Along with John oh-so-happily slicing his hand open.
14. The Impala scene! Cute, funny, awkward as hell.
15. Remember CSPWDT? Mary's uncle or whoever put up her headstone. So they definitely do have relatives. But then there's point no. 2 up there. My head is now throbbing.
16. In fact, my heart is throbbing too. I feel like my body and soul have both been put through a blender, and only the best of Supernatural episodes do that to me.
17. I've only rewatched it once so far and I'm already rambling so much so I'll shut up now.
I LOVE THIS SHOW. I LOVE YOU ALL. (it's the chocolate talking, sorry). It's midnight here, so goodnight!!
Decided to see it during lunch time and, wow! This one’s going on my top ten! Need to rewatch but here’s my first thoughts (I’ll try to be coherent).
Dean’s dream is so fun
Cas saying that Sam is his friend. I’m so proud of our little angel!
Anna, I liked her when she first appeared, but I think “prison” got her priorities mixed up, so I’m not all that bored that she’s dead.
Sam’s initial enthusiasm about the time travel was so sweet.
John and Mary (did she kicked Anna’s ass or what!?) , Amy Gumenick and Matt Cohen are such good actors!
That talk between Sam and John got me to tears, when John asked Sam what kind of father would raise his kids in that kind of life...... I’m crying again!
And Dean talking with Mary saying that he was her son and then Sam joining in to the conversation, made me cry even more, Mary’s hopes of a normal life where killed right there, and when she said that she couldn’t leave John that it was to late bc she was already pregnant, the look on Dean’s face.....
Major character dead? Sam dies again?! Common! You got me on this one Alice!
And Michael?! If the other angels are dicks, he’s the king of them all! All that talk, if I didn’t know I would think that it was Lucifer in John's body, he talk and “try to explain” but it looked like everything Lucifer and the others already said, he just said it in a different way.
The Abel and Cain blood line I confess I had thought about it, so it wasn’t that much of a surprise, the surprise was from who’s bloodline, John, and know that I think of it (like some of you already mentioned) we don’t know much about John’s side of the family do we?
That all destiny thing gives me the chills so, go Team Free Will! I’m with you! Let’s hope that saying yes is not the solution, although, after this epi I’m starting to think that it’s gonna go there.
And when I thought it was over, we get John and Mary preparing the room for the baby and then Mary’s words “Angels are watching over you”, those words broke my heart and got me crying again.
Oh boy, what a ride! By the time this season overs I’ll a blubbering mess and completely insane! Is this the greatest show on earth or what?
Gotta re-watch.
I am with all those prior comments about Team FREE WILL! It is my belief that our Agency and the ability to choose for ourselves how to conduct and lead our lives is one of the foremost gifts we have been given. For Michael to come in and say - Nope, that doesn't matter, doesn't exist - just really ticks me off. He is just like all the others. Yes, I believe we have a destined plan, BUT, that is all tempered by the choices we make here.
So I say "GO TEAM FREE WILL!!!!!" I would love for this story to be resolved without the brothers succumbing to what the angels continue to say is "their destiny". That would be a great kind of "I told you so" moment.
back to SPN; Team Winchester + Cas = Team Free Will. I'm backing them all the way!
My personal theory is this: Our destiny goes as far that our options are determined. With our free will we choose what option to take. My friend also claims that what matters is luck. So, some of us are lucky enough to have some good options to freely choose from, while some of us aren't and may choose the less bad option.
Will any choice we make bring us to the same end? I don't know. I'd like to believe it won't. But I tend to believe it will. The choices we make take us down a certain path, some are straight and short, some are long and winding, some are an asphalted highway, some are back roads full of barriers. But nevertheless our destined options remain the same. I guess, this will eventually take us wherever we are destined to arrive.
Now I just wish to be lucky enough to have a happy end of the road. But that's not mine to decide, is it?
Geez, my head hurts.
Based on Swap Meat, it doesn't seem to require the original occupant give permission, anyone in the body can. I doubt that if Sam and Dean switched, it wouldn't change. They wouldn't say yes, but if someone else switched with the boys, than I guess it could.
The concept of free will and destiny will never end with SPN. I vote for free will always. That's what the boys will do, but I'm sure Kripke will make it as hard as possible on us in the process.
Wow... that episode... just wow. It's set of loads of thinky thoughts about the whole free will vs destiny question and the million 'random' things that have happened to get the Winchesters to this point.
Going waaay back to the beginning- the YED only picked Sam for his plan after meeting Mary, which is interesting now we know the Angel vessel genes actually come from John's side of the family.
But- the whole Cain and Abel angle starts to make sense if we find out that Mary was descended from one bloodline, one of the brothers, and John the other. That way their children could be descended from both (and possibly, like others have speculated, act as vessels for either angel).
Did the YED sense this about Mary when he saw her, that she was descended from a line suitable for Lucifer to possess, and so single her child out as his favourite? As mind bending as that would be I'm kinda tending towards no since it wouldn't explain why he had so many other psychic kids.
But it makes me think that Lucifer's vessel has to have that demon connection for it to work, since that's the only reason Azazel would've gone to all that trouble of making deals in order to bleed into the kids' mouths. With angel vessels its all about what's in your blood right? And with Lucifer having been locked in Hell for so long... maybe his angelic nature's been tainted, or something.
So even with their parents from both bloodlines, ultimately Sam is still the only truly suitable vessel for the Devil (and might explain why possessing Nick, a presumably demon-blood free meat suit, is having such a bad effect on his body).
Ok long tangent there. But seriously, if John and Mary are both descended from Cain and Abel respectively, then the coincidences Michael was talking about in having them meet, fall in love and produce Sam and Dean, are HUGE. And completely mind-boggling.
And not making things look so good for Team Free Will.
Ruby's words at the end of last season are actually what gives me hope that not all is set in stone- "It wasn't the blood, it was you and your choices. I just gave you the options and you chose the right path every time." As long as Sam and Dean have a say in the matter, as long as they have their options, yes or no, they can choose their own path. *cheesy grin*
Wow sorry for the mini-essay. It's pretty much all speculation and guesswork but the episode was so good, it set off a train of thought and I went with it. :geek:
Back to lurkerdom I go. Just wanted to say though- Alice this site is awesome!!
This episode was - depressing as hell! (thanks, Michael)
No, really I loved everything about this episode but it did leave me with what felt like a hole in my gut. Am so hoping that all this destiny stuff is just a bunch of
hoo hah!
Mary was great and Matt Cohen channeled BDW so well and became the majestic Michael as well. Those two are really awesome actors!
Cas was great as well claiming Sam as his friend. Is Cas the only angel to be admired in the heavenly host?
I was quite fond of Anna last season, but she turned out to be a dick as well. Was she brain-washed or taken over by some demon? Was glad Michael crisped her up.
Sam and Dean with their mom and dad were heart breakingly endearing. Jensen and Jared outdid themselves again. We are so lucky to have such talent on this show, along with the guests that show up. I can truly believe this John and Mary are the parents that we've seen previously.
Destiny - no no no no way! Booooo!
Team Free Will - Yes yes yes! Yay! GO TEAM FREE WILL!
A definite high for Cas ( Captain Comatose, new action figure for you there, Randal ... ) I did a happy little wriggle when he claimed Sam as a friend and his mystic mumbo-jumbo growl is coming along nicely ...
Sam defending John to John was a real lip trembler, and I don't even like John! ( Curse you clever-clogs writer types mucking around with my preconceptions ... )
The only tick in the shag-pile for me was the now tradtional " Oooh go on, yield ... 's yer destiny, innit ... " speech that every angel/ demon above a certain pay-grade is contractually obliged to deliver if they're on screen for more than 30 seconds. If it was that much of a sure thing why all the fussing and rushing around ... Why not just sit back and await the inevitable? ( Cos no-one wants to see 22 episodes of our heroes twiddling their thumbs and humming tunelessly to themselves is why, I suspect ...
Actually, I'm quite hoping Anna isn't totally dismitigrated as I like her better as a baddy ... Although I think your Anna/ Cas smoochy shower scene just went up in smoke, Alice ...
Why would GOD want such a thing? They are his sons! Even though one of them went rogue, would he really want him to die? And aside from that, Cas has been searching for God, who seems to be MIA, anyway, leaving the idiot angels in charge!
Personally, I hope God comes back, and, like John, is so pissed off at the behavior of ALL his children, he "turns the car around" and sends all of them to jail except Castiel. He gives him a promotion, anything he wants, and what Cas wants is to free the Winchesters from this ridiculous DESTINY of theirs!
God gives the GOOD angel what he wants, restores his powers, and the Winchester brothers are free to return to earth to pursue their lives. Unfortunately, Michael and Lucifer have escaped vowing to cause as much trouble on earth as possible, and Dean, Sam and Castiel realize they still have work to do, leading us to season 6 on SUPERNATURAL.
Love, Robin
I adored every bit of it. Esp. Sams face when he meets John&Mary, John&Mary together, Sams talk with John (so cried on that one) and Deans talk with Mary. I loved how freaked out Mary looked over Sam staring!! Michael was all oozing of power and superiority. I hope he and Lucky will have to can their "free will is an illusion" -attitude in the end. I'll join y'all with: GO TEAM FREEWILL!!! *shakes pompoms or what-ever* *grin*
Honestly, I just did not care enough to download 5.12. But one of my favorites from livejournal wrote that 5.13 was awesome, so I watched, and hell, it was.
Great, just great.
What I was missing in 5.11 was all there.
So, where can I share my happy feelings?
And here I am again!
I think Sam is less pretty post 5.10 than he was before.
But this is my only complaint.
I'm SO happy with this episode, it got drama and blood and emotion and it just could not be better. OMG, Uriel, my beloved Uriel was there! And young John's skin on Michael was yummy.
Why are here only all kind of unhappy answers in the test? I'm SO glad for my show to be great again! The episode was like a party for me! LOVE it! LOOOOOVE IT!
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